Investigation of communism in the Metropolitan Music School, inc., and related fields. Hearings

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■i

HARVARD COLLEGE
LIBRARY

GIFT OF THE

GOVERNMENT
OF THE UNITED STATES

/

7

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNISM IN THE METROPOLITAN
MUSIC SCHOOL, INC., AND REUTED FIELDS— PART 1

HEARINGS

BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

APRIL 9 AND 10, 1957

Printed for the use of tbe Committee on Un-American Activities

INDEX IN PART 2

UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
91198 WASHINGTON : 1957

- . -- L; T;,£
UNI I ED STATES GOVERNMENT

JUL 101957

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES

United States House of Representatives
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York

CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California

JAMES B. FRAZIER, JR.^ Tennessee GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana ROBERT J. McINTOSH, Michigan

Richard Arbns, Director
II

CONTENTS

Page

Sy nopsis VII

Executive Hearings (See Part 2)^

Februarv 7, 1957: Testimony of — •

■ Fred Hellerman 871

February 8, 1957: Testimony of — ■

" George Koukly 877

Jesse L. Solomon 880

Part 1

April 9, 1957: Testimony of — ■

Lilly Popper 613

Leonard Cherlin 627

Lilly Popper (resumed) 627

Leonard Clierlin (resumed) 628

John Kenneth Ackley 641

Wallingf ord Riegger , 647

John Lautner 650

Wallingf ord Riegger (resumed) 651

Afternoon session:

Wallingf ord Riegger (resumed) 654

Robert Claibornel 658

Sidney Finkelstein 672

Henrv Zlotnick (Zlotnik) 680

Walter Raim (Walter Yudomin) 681

Max PoUikoff 682

Maurine Holbert 685

John F. Mehegan 690

Harry M. Smyles 692

April 10, 1957: Testimony of — ■

Thelma Pyle„_l 703

Lucy Brown 705

Mildred Hagler 712

Frank Schwartz 716

Dayid Walter 725

Afternoon session:

Elay ne Jones 745

Sam Morgenstern 749

Max Hollander 753

Alan Booth 757

Part 2
April 11, 1957: Testimony of —

Max Marlin .._1 762

Louis Graeler 770

Viyian Riykin 775

Earl Robinson 776

Afternoon session:

James CoUis 793

Oakley C. Johnson 794

John Lautner (resumed) 800

Oakley C. Johnson (resumed) 800

Elias Carmen 810

Paul Winter 817

Sterling Hunkins 820

Arnold Arnstein 822

Albert Edward Walters (Tiny) 824

• Released by the committee June 11, 1957, and ordered to be printed.

nx

IV CONTENTS

April 12, 1957: Testimony of — Page

Benny Berrafato 831

Seymour Levittan 833

Max Goberman 840

June Rotenberg 850

Simeon Jurist 854

Arthur Deutsch 861

Theodore Saidenberg 863

Gita Rosova 866

John Imbergamo 867

Index I

Public Law 601, 79th Congress

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter
753, 2d session, which provides :

Be it enacted ly the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States
of America in Congress assembled, * * *

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Rule X

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES
♦ **♦*♦•

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.

Rule XI

POWEES AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES
*******

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities.

(A) Un-American activities.

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit-
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United
States, (ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-Ameri-
can propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin
and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Con-
stitution, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Con-
gress in any necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such in-
vestigation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

*******

Rule XII

LEGISLATIVE OVEBSIQHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES

Sec. 136. To assist the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces-
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the juris-
diction of such committee ; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent re-
ports and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch
of the Government.

T

RULES ADOPTED BY THE 85TH CONGRESS
House Resolution 5, January 3, 1957

* 1^ :tt * * « *

RuleX
standing committees

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Cougi-ess,

* * * * * * *

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members.

* 4< 4: * * 4: 4;

Rule XI

POWEES AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES

* :): 4: * * >l< *

17. Committee on Un-American Activities.

( a ) Un-American activities.

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a vv^hole or by subcommittee,
is autliorized to malie from time to time investigations of (1) tlie extent,
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and im- American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congi'ess in
any necessary remedial legislation.

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to
the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such
investigation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable.

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting,
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the
signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person
designated by any such chairman or member.

*******

26. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary,
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness of
the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee : and, for that
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government.

VI

SYNOPSIS

( rN\rESTIGATION OF CoMMUNISM IN THE METROPOLITAN MuSIC ScHOOL,

Inc., and Eelai-ed Fields — April 9-12, 1957, Parts 1 and 2)

Hearings conducted by the Committee on Un-American Activities
in New York City from April 9 tlirough 12, 1957, CvStablished that
Metropolitan Music School, Inc., is controlled by identified Com-
nnniists.

Miss Lilly Popper, the director and founder; Wallingford Riegger,
president emeritus; John Kenneth Ackley, the registrar; Sidney Fin-
kelstein, Thelma Pyle, and Harry M. Smyles, all members of the board
of directors; and Mildred Hagler, a former secretary, were all identi-
fied as members of the Communist Party or invoked the fiftli amend-
ment when interrogated on the question of party membership.

Wallingford Riegger was identified by John Lautner, not only as a
Communist Partv member but as branch organizer, treasurer, and
general functionary of the Communist Party. Lucy Brown, Max
Hollander, Sam ]\Iorgenstern, Max Pollikoff, Vivian Rivkin, and Earl
Robinson, all sponsors of the school, invoked the fifth amendment
wlien questioned about Communist Party membership. Carroll Hol-
lister, another sponsor, had been identified as a party member in a
prior hearing.

Twenty-four identified Commimists have been on the faculty of the
school. (Lilly Popper admitted that she makes recommendations to
the board of directors in selecting faculty members.) Some of the
instructors have also taught at the Jelferson School of Social Science,
a Communist school. One of them is Sidney Finkelstein, cultural
spokesman for the Commmiist Party, who described one of his courses
at the Jefferson School in the school catalog as "the role of culture in
the class struggle today."

Such Communists as Paul Robeson, Robert Claiborne, and Oakley
C. Johnson were on the Citizens Committee when the 20th anniversary
of the school was commemorated in 1054; Robert Claiborne was pub-
licity director and Oakley C. Johnson was editor of the 20th Anni-
versary Golden Almanac.

The music school has an annual registration of between 375 and
400 children and adults.

That the school does not impart musical instruction objectively is
evidenced from an article which appeared in the Daily Worker of
September 21, 1938, introduced into the record as an exhibit, in which
Dr. Joachim Schumacher, faculty member, announces the introduc-
tion of a new course as a study of "the bourgeois music culture in the
period of monopoly capitalism." When Lilly Po))per, director of the
school, was asked if tlie foregoing accurately described the theme of
teacliing at the iletropolitan Music Scliool, she invoked the fifth
amendment. An article in People's Songs, Februaiy-March 1947
issue, entitled, "People's Songs — First Year," states, "Among the first

VIII SYNOPSIS

year's most successful projects were the classes in tlie use of music
for political action," referring to classes which had been conducted in
schools in Washington, Chicago, Boston, New Haven, New York, and
Detroit. In his testimony before the committee Earl Robinson, fac-
ulty member, stated that music had been used "a lot" for political
action.

Further indication of the Communist nature of the Metropolitan
Music School is the fact it frequently advertises in the Communist
Daily Worker.

An insight into the school's operation was provided by Leonard
Cherlin, a musician and teacher. He told the committee he was a
Commmiist Party member from 1940 to 1943 and again from 1946 to
1948, when he dropped out. Cherlin was on the faculty of the Metro-
politan Music School from 1946 to 1953. He attended closed party
meetings, he said, some of them at the homes of Lilly Popper, the
director, and Thelma Pyle, a member of the board.

Cherlin's membership in the party began in 1940 when he joined
Local 802, American Federation of Musicians and became part of the
Communist Party unit within the union. The Communist activities,
he said, comprised "philosophical discussions or educationals, fund
raising campaigns, and discussions on how to facilitate the growth of
Communist influence within Local 802." One of the objectives was
to oust the anti-Communist administration by a coalition between
Communists and non-Communists.

Cherlin terminated his first period of membership in the party in
June 1944 to enter the Armed Forces. This was a Communist Party
procedure, he said. On his discharge in 1946, Cherlin continued, he
immediately rejoined the Communist Party cell in Local 802.

Cherlin said he utilized his GI benefits to complete 4 years of musi-
cal education at the Juilliard School of Music. Thereafter, he received
a New York State war service scholarship of $1,400 which helped him
to attend Teachers College of Columbia University where he received
his B. S. and M. S. degrees in musical education. Wliile in attendance
at Juilliard, he was transferred from the Communist branch in Local
802 to another within the cultural section of the Communist Party.

Another witness. Max Marlin, testified that he joined the Communist
Party at the request of one of the officials of Local 802 in order to ob-
tain work. He further testified that he was pressured by the Commu-
nist Party in 1939 and 1940, after he had become a leader of orchestras
playing in legitimate theaters on Broadway, to hire Communists.
When he declined to do this, he was tried by the Communist fraction
in Local 802. It was a rule that Communists were to be taken care of
first, he added, regardless of musical ability. This was one of the
factors that caused Marlin to leave the Communist Party. Marlin,
a member of the party from 1936 until 1940, identified a number of
people as Communists. Five of them had held office in Local 802.

The testimony in general established the following :

(1) Considerable service has been, and continues to be, given to the
Communist cause by Communist artists and musicians. Even a hos-
tile witness. Earl Robinson, composer, conductor, and performing
artist, admitted that the use of an artist's name and his prestige can
promote a "cause" and that certain music is "revolutionary."

SYNOPSIS DC

(2) Besides serving on the Metropolitan Music School faculty, some
of the members of the faculty operate private studios where they
teach.

(3) Some of the hostile witnesses, identified as Communists, enjoy
great influence and prestige as composers, conductors, contractors,
and members of world-renowned symphonic and concert groups.
Many work in the most lucrative fields of music: television, radio,
theater pits, and record companies. One witness was chairman of the
board of the Symphony of the Air ; another was a member of its per-
sonnel committee; still another engages musicians for orchestras to
accompany productions and artists presented by an internationally
famous impresario.

(4) The importance of many of the hostile witnesses is further
evidenced by the fact that they have performed, and their works have
been performed, in some of the most important musical centers and
theaters throughout the world, sometimes under the sponsorship of
cultural agencies of the United States Government.

One witness entertained at the "Wliite House; another worked for
the Adjutant General of the United States as a translator for the
United Nations, first in the Russian Translation Section and later for
its International Telecommunications Union. He refused to say
whether or not he liad been a Communist or whether he had been in
communication with any Soviet agent during such employment. He
presently holds the position of music librarian for an important music
publishing house.

(5) The danger the Communist musician and teacher presents is
summed up in a letter addressed to Lilly Popper, director of the Metro-
politan Music School, in answer to her appeal that the school be sup-
ported in the investigation and hearing. The writer of the letter is
Dr. Abram Chasins, music director of radio station WQXR owned by
the New York Times and director of the annual musical educational
activities of the New York Times.

Miss Popper had stated in her appeal, "The very idea that there is an
'un-American' way of teaching music is ridiculous." Dr. Chasins
answered :

"I think this is eminently correct, but there is more to the question.
There are those who think that teaching involves only techniques.
However, a teacher worthy of the name exerts a powerful intellectual
and spiritual influence on the pupils. In my opinion, any teacher who
abuses this great pedagogical privilege to impose irrelevant political
ideas upon an esthetic relationship, is unfit to teach, no matter what
his nationality or ideology."

INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNISM IN THE METROPOLI-
TAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC., AND RELATED FIELDS-
PART 1

TUESDAY, APRIL 9, 1957

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee or the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

New York, N. Y.

PUBLIC HEARING

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 a. m., pursuant to notice, in room 35, United States Courthouse,
Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chairman
of the subcommittee), presiding.

Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder,
of Missouri; Clyde Doyle, of California; James B. Frazier, Jr., of
Tennessee; Bernard W. Kearney, of New York; and Robert J. Mc-
intosh, of Michigan.

Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; Dolores Scotti,
investigator ; and Frank Bonora, acting clerk.

Mr. Moulder. The committee will be in order.

This subcommittee, consisting of Mr. Mcintosh, of Michigan ; Mr.
Kearney, of New York ; Mr. Clyde Doyle, on my left, of California ;
Congressman Frazier, of Tennessee ; and myself as chairman, is duly
appointed by the chairman of the committee, Francis E. Walter, to
conduct the hearings. There being a quorum present, the committee
will come to order.

(Resolution and order follow:)

ExcEEPT From the Minutes of January 22, 1957

A motion was made by Mr. Kearney, seconded by Mr. Willis, and unanimously
carried, approving and authorizing the holding of hearings in New York City,
beginning April 9, 1957, or at such later date as the Chairman may determine,
and the conduct of investigations deemed i-easonably necessary by the staff
in preparation therefor, the subject of which hearings and the investigations in
connection therewith to include, in general, all matters within the jurisdiction
of the committee, and in particular the extent, character, and objects of Com-
munist Party activities within the entertainment industry.

To tfw Clerk of the Committee on Vn-Amferican Activities of the House of
Representatives :

OBDEE FOB APPOINTMENT OF SUBCOMMITTEE

Pursuant to the provisions of law and the Rules of this Committee, I hereby
appoint a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, House of
Representatives, consisting of Hon. Morgan M. Moulder, Chairman ; Hon. Clyde
Doyle, Hon. James B. Frazier, Jr., Hon. Bernard W. Kearney, and Hon. Robert
J. Mcintosh, associate members, to hold hearings in New York City, beginning

611

612 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

on April 9, 1957, on all matters within the jurisdiction of the Committee, and to
take testimony on said day or any succeeding days, and at such times and
places as it may deem necessary, until its work is completed.

The Clerk of the Committee is directed to immediately notify the appointees
of their appointment and to file this Order as an official Committee record in
the order book kept for that purpose.

Given under my hand this 3d day of April, 1957.

Francis E. Walter,
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives.

Mr. Moulder. The chairman desires to make this statement on
behalf of the subcommittee. This morning, the Committee on Un-
American Activities begins a series of hearings on a distinctive area
of Communist activity. The principal subject of our inquiry is the
Metropolitan Music School, Inc., located in New York City, and also
the music field generally. The committee has already conducted some
hearings on Communist activity in the field of education, in public
schools, and in colleges and universities. We have also conducted
hearings on Communist cultural affairs.

The present hearings combine elements of both of these spheres of
investigation. We are confronted with the problem of Communist
influence upon students ; and, at the same time, we must be concerned
with the possible efforts of these students to carry out Communist
cultural objectives in their professional work.

We have had numerous examples of the important services given
by Communist entertainers to Communist Party and Communist-
front functions ; the tremendous sums of money which they have con-
tributed to the Communist Party; and, on still another level, the
influence they have exerted as members of the professional unions.
Among those who have been subpenaed to appear before us here, are
musicians who have performed in various places throughout the world
under the sponsorship of the United States Government.

Several worldwide tours in which they have participated have, in
fact, been almost fully paid for by the taxpayers of the United States.
Their Communist affiliations have consequently become a matter of
deep concern to the Congress of the United States, and it is clear
that ways must be found to deprive Communist-controlled organiza-
tions of the actual or the implied support of the American Government.

Now, of course, we are not worried about communizing Beethoven
and Bach, and we do not feel that the performance of a concerto by
a Communist is in itself subversive. But we do feel that the presence
of the activities of Communists, of persons loyal to the international
conspiratorial apparatus in the Soviet Union, do constitute a sub-
versive threat regardless of the profession in which these persons are
engaged.

The Communist musician. Communist lawyer, the Communist
teacher, all stand forth as a danger to a free society for the one reason
alone, that they are Communists and that, as Communists, they will
utilize their professions in whatever way possible to further the
interests of the alien conspiracy to which they belong.

I would like to remind the spectators present that they are here by
the permission of the committee. A disturbance of any kind during
the testimony, whether favorable or unfavorable to any witness, will
not be tolerated. Anyone who violates this rule will be ejected from
the hearing room.

COMMUNISM iJsr Metropolitan music school, inc. 618

In addition, please observe the rules of the Federal court which
prohibit smoking in the courtroom.

Every witness appearing before our committee is entitled to have
counsel accompany him. I want to make it clear, however, that coun-
sel's sole function is to advise his client as to his rights and privileges,
and the rules of the committee prohibit counsel from making state-
ments or arguing with members of the committee. The sole function,
as stated, is to advise and counsel with his client on the witness stand.

Are you ready to call your first witness, Mr. Arens?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Lilly Popper, kindly come forward. Kindly remain standing
while the chairman administers an oath to you.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, tlie whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Popper. I do.

TESTIMONY OF LILLY POPPER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

MILDKED ROTH

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

Miss Popper. My name is Lilly Popper. I am director of the
Metropolitan Music School, and I live at 18 West 74th Street.

Mr. A_rens. Kindly tell us whether you are appearing today in re-
sponse to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities.

Miss Popper. Correct.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Miss Popper. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Miss Roth. Mildred Roth, 401 Broadway.

Mr. Arens. Please tell us, where is the Metropolitan Music School
located.

Miss Popper. 18 West T4th Street, where I live.

Mr. Arens. In New York City ?

Miss Popper. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Is the Metropolitan Music School a corporation ?

]\Iiss Popper. It is.

Mr. Arens. And how long has it been in existence as a corporation ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. Since 1947, I believe.

Mr. Arens. Were you one of the incorporators of the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Miss Popper. I was.

Mr. Arens. Was there a predecessor organization to the Metropoli-
tan Music School ?

Miss Popper. Yes ; there was ; the Downtown Music School.

Mr. Arens. And where was it located ?

Miss Popper. Ill West 88th Street.

Mr. Arens. Has the predecessor organization become extinct?

Miss Popper. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Is there any affiliate organization to the Metropolitan
Music School?

614 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Miss PorrKK. No ; there isn't.

Mr. Akf.xs. I las the Xeioliborhood Music School ever had an affiliate
relationship with the Metropolitan Music School?

Miss Popper. Yes; it has.

Mr. Arens. Tell us when that afiiliate relationship existed.

Miss Popper. I don't remember exactly the date, but I know that
it is many, many years since we have been separated.

Ml-. .Vkexs. Does the Metroi)olitan Music School own the building
whicli it occu|)ies;'

Miss Popper. It will own it when all the debts are paid.

Mr. Arexs. It has title to the property; is that correct?

Miss Popper. Correct.

Mr. Arexs. And it is paying- on the building?

Miss Popper. That is right.

Mr. Ak'exs. Tell us just a word, if you please, about the number of
students who ai-e taught at the Metropolitan Music School.

Miss Popper. Between oTo and 400 students.

Mr. Arexs. Is that an annual enrollment, an approximate annual
enrollment ^

Miss Popper. I would say so.

Mr. Arexs. Tell us, if you please, the number of faculty members
who are at the Metropolitan Music School.

Miss Popper. I would say about 38.

Mr. Arens. Are these full-time faculty members?

Miss Popper. Xo; they are not. Some of them only have 1 day,
some of them only have 2 hours.

Mr. Arexs.. Tell us, please, the age groupings of tlie students, in
general.

Miss Popper. From the preschool depaitment through adults.

Mr. Arex'S. I beg your pardon ?

Miss Popper. From the preschool department through adults.

Mr. Arexs. How many do you have in each of the several cate-
gories, generally speaking?

Miss Popper. I would say, generally sj)eaking, between a fourth or
a third adults and the others children.

Mr. Arex^s. Has the annual enrollment of the Metropolitan Music
School been approximately 375 to 400, as you estimated, over the
course of the last many years, or has that been just a recent figure?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. Yes. I wish to correct. The enrollment is ])er term,
not annual.

Mr. Arens. Then the aimual enrollment would be — would it be
twice ?

Miss Popper. No; it woiddn't, because very nuiny of the people
continue during the second term, but they enroll anew.

Mr. Arexs. Has the enrollment been substantially the same numeri-
cally, over the course of the last several years ?

Miss Popper. Yes, I think so.

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us wdio is the president emeritus of the
Metropolitan Music School.

Miss Popper. The president emeritus is Dr. Wallingford Riegger.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the name of the registrar ?

Miss Popper. J. K. Ackley.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 615

Mr. Arens. Can you tell iis also the name of the members of the
board of directors? Perhaps I can refresh your recollection.

Is John K. Ackley a member of the board of directors?

Miss Popper. He is.

Mr. Arens. Is Sidney Finkelstein a member of the board of di-
rectors ?

Miss Popper. He is.

Mr, Arens. Is liobert

Miss Popper. Yes, Robert Claiborne.

Mr. Arens. Robert Harris ?

Miss Popper. He is no longer, because he is not in fown.

Mr. Arens. Is Mazie LaMelle a member of the board of directors?

Miss Popper. No longer. She has resigned because she doesn't live
in New York any more.

Mr. Arens. Does she have a successor on tlie board of directors?

Miss Popper. No.

Mr. Arens. Is John H. Harmon a member of tiie board of direc-
tors?

Miss Popper. Pie has just asked for his resignation.

Mr. Arens. Is he likewise currently occupying the post of treas-
urer of the institution?

Miss Popper. Well, as he has just resigned, I imagine that he no
longer is, but he has been.

Mr. Arens. He has been treasurer?

Miss Popper. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Does he have a successor as treasurer?

Miss Popper. Not yet. We haven't had a board of directors' meet-
ing since then.

Mr. Arens. Is Thelma Pyle a member of the board of directors?

Miss Popper. She is.

Mr. Arens. David Simon ?

Miss Popper. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Harry M. Smyles ?

Miss Popper. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Richard Yaffe?

Miss Popper. Well, he is just an honorary member.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been associated, first, with the
Metropolitan Music School and then, secondly, with the predecessor
organization, the Downtown Music School ?

Miss Popper. Since its inception.

Mr. Arens. And when was the Downtown Music School initiated
or started?

Miss Popper. 1934-35.

Mr. Arens. You were witli the Downtown Music School all dur-
ing its existence?

Miss Popper. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Miss Popper, are you now, or have you ever been, a
member of the Communist Party ?

]\Iiss Popper. Sir, I decline to on the basis of my rights under tlie
first amendment and my right under the fifth amendment to be a wit-
ness against myself. And I object to this question as to my political
affiliations or nonaffiliations.

Mr. Arens. Now, in anticipation of the appearance by yourself
here today, did you address a letter to certain persons on the letterhead

616 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

of the Metropolitan Music School, and accompany that letter with a
memorandum ?

Miss Popper. I certainly did.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you, if you please, a letter bearing your
signature, accompanied by a memorandum. I ask if you would kindly
be good enough to tell us if that is a true and correct reproduction
of the letter and accompanying memorandum which you sent to each
of several persons in anticipation of these hearings today.

(Document handed to witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. Yes; this is a copy of the letter. This is a copy of
the letter,

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this exhibit,
and all succeeding exhibits used in the course of the hearings here in
this session, be appropriately marked, and reproduced or incor-
porated by reference in the record. If we have a general order of
that character, it will save a little time, I believe.

Mr, Moulder, Without objection, it is so ordered. Do you mean
by that every exhibit wliich you offer to a witness?

Mr, Arens. Yes, sir; numbered in chronological order and repro-
duced or incorporated by reference in the record as the case may be.
We have a number of exhibits which we shall use in the course of
these next several days. It will just be a mode of facilitating our
proceedings.

Mr. ]\Ioulder, Without objection, it will be so ordered, unless, of
course, there is objection on the part of any member of the subcom-
mittee to any exhibit which you may offer later,

Mr, Arens. Yes, sir,

PoppEE Exhibit No. 1

Metropolitan Music School, Inc.,

18 West 74th Street,
Neic York, N. Y., April 1, 1957.
Mr. Abeam Chasins,

229 West 43d Street, Neiv York City.

Dear Sponsor: Nearly three years ago we wrote you concerning an attack on
the school by the publication Neiv Counterattack. Like all the rest of our spon-
sors you stood by us.

We now face the second phase of this attack. More than fifty musicians,
actors and writers have been subpoenaed by the House Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities, among them members of our faculty and administrative staff.
Public interrogation of these people will begin on April 9th.

Judging from its past activities, the Committee's object is the same as
Counterattack's: to set up a blacklist of persons whose present or past political
beliefs or associations it finds distasteful. Pressure will be brought on indi-
viduals and organizations (such as the school) to refuse to employ such people.

We do not propose to give in to such pressure. We know, as you do, that
most American musicians have a hard enough time making a living without
being subjected to irrelevant political tests. Moreover, we believe that no
reputable educational or musical organization can or should permit a Congres-
sional committee — or any other outside group — to dictate whom it may or may
not employ. In the future as in the past we intend to employ teachers on the
basis of their professional competence only. For this reason it is quite likely
that our school will be denounced as a "Communist front" organization.

As you know, there is nothing "subversive" about the school's activities. On
the contrary : the fact that we have for years had an "integrated" faculty and
student body has drawn the favorable attention of the U. S. Information Agency
as well as publications like Color. The very idea that there is an "un-Ameri-
can" way of teaching music is ridiculous. The political beliefs of our staff —
into which we have never enquired — cannot conceivably endanger the security

COMMUNISM m METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 617

or welfare of the United States. Under the circumstances, we can only regard
the Committee's activities as an attempt by publicity-hxingry politicians to
hamper the development of American culture.

We are sure that we will continue to enjoy your support. We hope also that
you will acquaint the Committee with your feelings about the school and this
attack upon it.
Sincerely,

Lilly Poppek, Director.

Popper Exhibit No 1a
Memorandum

In the interest of our staff members and the other musicians who have been
subpoenaed, we have, in cooperation with attorneys in the field, prepared the
following memorandum summarizing some of the problems faced by witnesses
before the Committee. We hope it will help to provide "background" to the
current hearings.

A hearing before the Committee on UnAmerican Activities is not a court pro-
ceeding. It is subject to none of the ordinary rules of evidence : "cooperative"
witnesses are permitted and often encouraged to fill the record with hearsay,
rumor and personal conjecture. "Accused" persons are not permitted to cross-
examine witnesses against them.

The Committee has stated as a matter of policy that it does not call anyone
before it unless it possesses evidence that the person was once a member of
the Communist Party. Witnesses questioned on this or similar matters are
therefore faced with the following alternatives :

1. They may deny the "accusation." In this case they may be indicted for
perjury on the basis of the testimony about them (frequently secret) which the
Committee claims to have.

2. They may answer in the affirmative. They will then be required to "prove"
that they are no longer connected with "subversive" groups by naming all their
associates in such groups. Failure to act as an informer under these circum-
stances is pimishable as contempt of Congress.

3. They may refuse to answer on the Constitutional ground of the Fifth
Amendment. Though it is a well-known principle of American law that this
amendment exists for protection of the innocent, the Committee has consistently
sought to turn it into an inference of "guilt." Persons refusing to answer on
this ground have been abused as "Fifth Amendment Communists" and have
suffered loss of employment.

4. They may refuse to answer on the ground that the Committee has no power
under the Constitution to inquire into a citizen's beliefs and associations. While
there is good reason to believe that this position is legally sound, the Supreme
Court has not yet decided the question. Persons taking this alternative face the
burden of heavy legal expenses and the ultimate possibility of a jail sentence
for contempt of Congress.

As you can see, therefore, every course of action open to a witness is either
expensive, dangerous or degrading. It is for this reason that these and similar
proceedings have frequently been described as "inquisitions."

Mr. Arens. Now, how many letters such as the one marked
Popper Exhibit No. 1 did you send ?

Miss Popper. I cannot tell you the exact number, but we sent it to
the sponsors, and we sent it with another letter to the students of the
school, to the parents and the adult students,

Mr. Arexs. You say here in this letter — and I will not burden
the record at the moment to quote all of the letter, as it will speak for
itself — you say in your letter that the committee, namely, the House
Committee on Un-American Activities, has as its object to set up a
blacklist of persons whose present or past political beliefs or associa-
tions it finds distasteful ; also, that the object here is to inquire into
political beliefs and irrelevant political tests. Is that a coiTect inter-
pretation of the theme of your letter ?

Miss Popper. Yes ; it is.

91198— 57— pt. 1 2

618 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. Is it your position that a person who is a member
of the Communist conspiracy, the Communist Party, is a person
who adheres merely to certain political beliefs ?

(The witness conferred wnth her counsel.)

Miss Popper. I decline

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. I decline for the same reasons that I declined before.

Mr. Arens. And you sent a copy of this letter to a person by the
name of Abram Chasins, who is musical director for WQXR, which,
I understand, is owned or controlled by the New York Times?

Miss Popper. I did.

Mr. Arens. And did you receive a reply from Abram Chasins,
musical director of WQXR, a copy of which I now display to you?

(Document handed to witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. I certainly sent a letter to him. Whether this is the
fact, I would have to read it through word by word and compare it.
This is his answer.

Mr. Arens. Yes ; that is what I am asking.

Miss Popper. That is what you are asking?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Miss Popper. I would not be able to tell, without reading it word
by word, if it is ; but I did receive a letter from him.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I have in my hand a letter addressed to
the chairman of this committee — which I have received from the
chairman — by Abram Chasins, musical director of WQXR, director
of the annual musical educational activities of the New York Times.
Dr. Chasins also sent to Chairman Walter a copy of his reply to Miss
Popper's letter and memorandum of April 1.

I w^ould like at tliis time to read in toto the letter Mr. Chasins sent
to the Chairman of the House Committee on Un-American Activities
in reference to the letter sent to him by Miss Popper.

Mr. Moulder. Proceed.

Mr. Doyle. What is the date ?

Mr. Arens. April 4, 1957 —

Popper Exhibit No. 2

The Chairman,

House Committee on Un-American Activities,
United States Court House, Foley Square,

Neiv York, N. Y.

Dear Mr. Chairman : I have just received a communication from the Metro-
politan Music School that iaforms me of a forthcoming investigation of this
school by your committee. Enclosed, please find my reply to the director of that
school, which will be self-explanatory.

For many years I allowed this school to use my name as a member of its
musical board. Originally, I consented because the school had stated musical
objectives that appeared to be worthy of encouragement. Two years ago I wrote
the school requesting it to remove my name from its catalog and to accept my
resignation from its musical board. I seem to recall that my letter was acknowl-
edged with regret, but now I understand that my name was not removed as
requested.

My resignation was not caused by political considerations, for I was completely
unaware of the matters which your committee is investigating. I resigned from
several other boards at the same time because of my decision not to lend my
name to any organization or school whose work I could not check personally.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 619

The pressure of time lias always made it impossible for me to do this. Inci-
dentally, in all the years that I was considered a member of the Metropolitan
Music Board I was never asked to meet with that board. Nor have I ever been
inside the school, to the best of my remembrance.

I trust that it is superfluous for me to add that I am unequivocally opposed to
every aspect of Communist ideology. I am writing you primarily because I just
learned that my name has continued to be used in the catalog of the Metropolitan
Music School.

Should your investigation expose those who used the privileges of democracy
to undermine it, and should you at the same time protect all the innocently en-
tangled people they exploited, every American citizen will be deeply in your
debt.

Yours faithfully,

Abram Chasins,
Music Director of WQXR, Director of the Annual Musical-Educational
Activities of the Neiv York Times.

Mr. Arexs, Mr. Chasins enclosed in his letter to Chairman Walter
a copy of the letter ^Yhich he addressed to the witness, Miss Lilly
Popper, director of the Metropolitan Music School, Inc., under date
of April 4, 1957, and that letter reads as follows :

Popper Exhibit No. 3

Dear Miss Popper: Your letter and memorandum of Apidl 1 surprised me in
view of the fact that over 2 years ago I wrote to the Metropolitan Music School
resigning from your musical board and requesting the removal of my name from
your catalog. I recall having received a regretful reply, but your recent com-
munication indicates that my requests were obviously not fulfilled.

Nevertheless, although not involved in the matter that causes your com-
munication, I feel very much involved as an educator. Your letter states that
"the very idea that there is an un-American way of teaching music is ridiculous."
I think this is eminently correct, but there is more to the question.

There are tliose who think that teaching involves only techniques. However, a
teacher worthy of the name exerts a powerful intellectual and spiritual in-
fluence on the pupils. lu my opinion, any teacher who abuses this great pedagog-
ical privilege to impose irrelevant political ideas upon an esthetic relationship, is
unfit to teach, no matter what his nationality or ideology.

Although I do not wish to wage any political discussion, your communications
compel me to make one thing very clear. I believe in the necessity of congres-
sional inquiry on the principle that intelligent action can only result from thor-
ough information. I know that the process has sometimes been abused. I also
know that it has itself been the victim of abuse. Should anyone with the right
of inquiry ask me where I have been, why, and with whom, I shall be glad to
answer him. Should I refuse to answer, should I use any of the legal instruments
available to the fortunate citizens of a democracy to refuse to answer — you may
safely assume that I have either stolen a payroll or another man's wife.

Should it develop that the Metropolitan Music School has knowingly harbored
teachers who have abused both their pedagogical and democratic rights, it will
elicit my fullest disapproval.
Yours sincerely,

Abram Chasins,
WQXR Music Director.

Mr. Arens. Now, Miss Popper, did you at any time direct to Mr.
Chasins, or cause to be directed to him, an acceptance of his resigna-
tion from the board of the Metropolitan Music School or from the
list of sponsors of that school ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. First of all, I have gone, since I received that letter,
I have gone through our material of letters and answers which we
keep rather carefully. I have not found any letter by Mr. Chasins in
which he asked far his resignation. By the way, it is not the board.

620 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, flSTC.

He was never a member of the board. He was a member of the
sponsoring conmiittee.

Mr. Moulder. Will his name now be removed as a member of the
sponsoring committee ?

Miss Popper. Most certainly.

Mr. Arens. Do you Iniow a person by the name of Marcia Minor?

Miss Popper. I didn't get that.

Mr. Arens. Marcia Minor, M-i-n-o-r.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. I don't know any such name.

Mr. Arens. Do you recall a teacher at the Metropolitan Music
School by the name of Dr. Joachim Schmnacher ?

Miss Popper. Yes, I do.

Mr. Arens. Did you engage liim ?

Miss Popper. Well, the board of directors did.

Mr. Arens. Did you recommend his engagement to the board of
directors ?

Miss Popper. That I cannot tell you. I can't tell you how he came
to the school.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a photostatic reproduction of the
Communist Daily Worker of New York, Wednesday, September 21,
1938, page 7, in which an article appears respecting the Metropolitan
Music School. It states that Dr. Schumacher is a new addition to the
faculty, and I specifically direct to j'our attention the following:

He will introduce new courses under such headings as "the bourgeois music
culture in the period of monopoly capitalism" and "the topography of Carl
Maria Von Weber" —

and the like.

I also invite your attention to the latter part of the article in which
it is set forth that "art for art's sake is 'busted.' "

Kindly look at that article, please, and tell us if the author of that
article has accurately and truthfully described the theme of teaching
at the Metropolitan Music School.

(Document handed to witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. ^Vliile the witness is examining that exhibit, Mr.
Arens, the name was mentioned of Marcia Minor. Should that name
be permitted to remain in the record without further identification?

Mr. Arens. The article speaks for itself, Mr. Chairman, in this
respect. Marcia ISIinor is the author of the article. It has her
byline.

Mr. Moulder. How do you spell Marcia?

Mr. Arens, M-a-r-c-i-a, is it not, Miss Popper ?

Miss Popper. I haven't found it here and I don't see it.

Mr. Arens. It is under the byline.

Miss Popper. First of all, I don't Imow the person.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the spelling is M-a-r-c-i-a, Minor,
M-i-n-o-r.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. I don't quite know what the question is, sir. Would
you mind repeating it ?

COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 621

Mr. Arens. The question is did Marcia Minor in her article in the
Communist Daily Worker truthfully and accurately describe the
theme of teaching at the Metropolitan Music School?

Miss Popper. I decline, as I declined before, on the basis of my
rights under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Popper Exhibit No. 4," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you truthfully told this
committee whether or not the theme of teaching at the Metropolitan
Music School is accurately and truthfully described by Marcia Minor
in that article in the Communist Daily Worker, you would be supply-
ing information which might be used against you in a criminal pro-
ceeding ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. What is your response to that question ?

Miss Popper. Well, I really feel that in the context of the opera-
tions here, this might be used against me, and I decline on the basis
of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Leonard Cherlin ?

Miss. Popper, I do.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I think the record will not show that
the witness has answered that question either yes or no. I mean the
last question. I think the record ought to show whether or not she
did answer that question which you asked her.

Mr. Arens. Would you have me repeat the question, Mr. Doyle, and
then we can be sure the record is clear on that ?

Mr. DoTLE. Yes. Or we can have the record read to show what
the answer is.

Miss Popper, I have given my answer and the record will show it.
My answer is the same.

Mr. DoTLE. May I have the record read, please, for that question
and answer ?

(The reporter read from his notes as requested. )

Mr. DoYLE. Thank you.

Mr. Arens. The question outstanding was did you know Leonard
Cherlin, and your response was in the affirmative?

Miss Popper, Yes.

Mr. Arens. When did you last talk with Mr. Leonard Cherlin?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. Well, do you mean in person or by telephone?

Mr. Arens. By telephone.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. Last night.

Mr. Arens. And what occasioned the conversation ?

Miss Popper. The occasion was that I had been told by another
instructor that Mr. Cherlin had called him up and told him that he
also had been subpenaed; and I felt, after the discussion with this
teacher, that perhaps I could be of some help, or something or other,
because some of the subpenaed have been speaking to one or another ;
and I called up to see whether I could see him.

Mr. Arens. Had you had a previous telephone conversation with
him in the course of the last several days ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

622 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Miss Popper. Well, he had said that he wanted this message to be
given to me, that he is subpenaed and so forth, and then I had called
him up and I told

Mr. Arens. Wliat is the "and so forth" ?

Miss Popper. Pardon?

Mr. Arens. "Wliat is the "and so forth" that he said in his message
to you ?

Miss Popper. He said that the message was to be given to me, and I
don't remember anything else besides that.

Mr. Arens. In the course of your conversation with Mr. Cherlin
last night, was the subject of communism or membership by any per-
son in the Communist Party a topic of the conversation ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. "Wliich conversation ?

Mr. Arens. The conversation you had last evening on the telephone
with him.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. It was not.

Mr. Arens. Was the subject of communism or membership by any
person in the Communist Party the subject of the message which Mr.
Cherlin left for you in a preceding conversation in the course of the
last several days ?

(The witness conferred w-ith her counsel.)

Miss Popper. You see, I did not get the message. It was one of our
instructors who got the message.

Mr. Arens. And he relayed it to you ?

Miss Popper. He relayed it to me.

Mr. Arens. Did Mr^ Cherlin tell you that he proposed to swear
before this committee that, while he was a member of the Communist
Party, he knew you as a Communist? Did he tell you that, or the
essence of that, in your telephone conversation ?

Miss Popper. He did not.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in a closed Communist Party meet-
ing with Leonard Cherlin, a meeting in which only comrades are
admissible ?

Miss Popper. I decline, again, on the same basis, the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arens. Of the members of the board of directors whom we
called off a little while ago, how many of them, to your certain knowl-
edge, are persons who have been members of the Communist Party?

Miss Popper. Sir, we have gone through this at the closed sessions.
I have been asked names back and forth and back and forth and I de-
clined, and I can only see that this question here is given in order
fo smear the school and in order to smear the people in the school. I
decline to answer

Mr. Arens. Do you think it might be

Miss Popper. On the basis of my rights

Mr. Arens. Consistent on the basis of the motives that we are try-
ing to develop facts on who are Communists in institutions of this
character so that the committee can recom.mend legislation to protect
the internal security of this country ? Do you think it might be con-
sistent with our motives, for that to be the objective?
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. I still decline to

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 623

Mr. Moulder. Let her give the reasons, Mr. Arens. You started
to give your reasons for declining to answer.

Miss Popper. I did give my reasons. I will state my reasons again.
That I was already asked at closed sessions name after name and name
after name and I declined ; and bringing this out in the open here and
asking in the open can only have one purpose, and that is to smear
the instructors and to smear the school. I will have no part of it. I
decline on the basis of my rights under the first amendment and my
rights under the fifth amendment not to be a witiuess against myself.

Mr. Arexs. By the word "smear" I take it you mean an unjust ac-
cusation or an unjust innuendo that a particular person is, or has been,
a member of the Communist Party. Is that what you mean by the
Avord "smear"?

Miss Popper. My answer is the same.

Mr. Arens. Just tell us what you mean by the word "smear," when
you say that it is the apparent attempt of this committee, or desire
of this committee, to smear someone.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. Well, I will say this : I have seen again and again

Mr. Arens. Just tell us in this particular instance, what you mean
by the word "smear" with reference to any one of these particular
persons. Do you mean an unjust innuendo of Communist affiliation?

Miss Popper. You know as well as I do what has happened in the
field of entertainment, in the field of music and in other fields, and
that has been that people have lost their jobs, people are afraid to
speak, and this I object to very strenuously and I will have no part
of it.

Mr. Arens. Is John K. Ackley, a member of the board of directors,
a person, to your certain knowledge, who has been a member of the
Communist Party?

Miss Popper. I decline. That is the same procedure.

Mr. Ar-ens. Is Sidney Finkelstein a person who, to your certain
knowledge, has been a member of the Communist Party, a member of
the board of directors ?

Miss Popper. I decline to answer on the basis of my rights under the
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. Is Harry M. Smyles a person who to }H)ur certain knowl-
edge has been a member of the Communist Party ?

Miss Popper. The answer is the same.

Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, I should like to invite your attention to
the Metro-Tones.

Mr. Moulder. Referring to the persons named by Mr. Arens ; do you
have any knowledge or information as to whether or not they are now
members of the Communist Party ?

Miss Popper. I decline on the same basis.

Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to Metro-Tones, is-
sued periodically by stafi' and parents of the Metropolitan Music
School, Inc., 18 West 74th Street, Xew York City, issued January
1957. I shall display it to you in just a moment. I see by the article
appearing on page 2, under Coming Events, that a concert is to be
given in connection, or in conjunction, with the Neighborhood Music
School. I should like to ask you : Does the Metropolitan Music School
have joint activities with the Neighborhood Music School ?

Miss Popper. Very few, indeed.

624 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Akens. Did it have one scheduled in April of this year?
Miss Popper. Yes ; it did, but it has not taken place.
Mr. Arens. I observe on page 3 of the same publication, this ar-
ticle :

We would like to publicize our preparatory department in the public schools.
Several instructors have offered to visit Parent-Teachers meetings and give
illustrative talks about the work we do.

That is a true and correct article ; is it not ?

Miss Popper. That is a true statement ; yes, it is.

(Document marked "Popper Exhibit No. 5," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us about the number of teachers of the
Metropolitan Music School who do or have visited parent-teachei-s
meetings in the vicinity here to give these illustrative talks about the
work that the Metropolitan Music School performs ?

Miss Popper, Not one, sir.

Mr. Arens. Then why was this article in the paper ?

Miss Popper. Because we wanted them to, and they were so over-
burdened with work that they couldn't.

Mr. Arens. They haven't done so yet ; is that correct ?

Miss Popper. No.

Mr. Arens. The Metropolitan Music School carries advertisements,
does it not, in the Communist Daily Worker ?

Miss Popper. It carries advertisements in all papers where we can
get students,

Mr. Arens. And does it carry advertisements in the Communist
Daily Worker?

Miss Popper. It does,

Mr. Moulder, Can you name the other newspapers in which you
carry advertisements ?

Miss Popper, The New York Post, the Times, Amsterdam News,
the downtown one — what is that ? I don't remember what it is called ;
but in 8 or 10 papers.

Mr, Arens, Wliat is the name of the printer or publisher who pub-
lishes the bulletins and other printed material of the Metropolitan
Music School ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper, His name is Cohen, and I have forgotten the first
name,

Mr, Arens. Is the name of his company the Prompt Press ?

Miss Popper. It is,

Mr, Arens, Do you know that the Prompt Press was cited by the
Attorney General of the United States as early as 1942 as that which
prints the bulk of the literature issued by the Communist Party and
its aflSiliates, and is reliably known to be owned by the Communist
Party ? Are you cognizant of that citation ?

Miss Popper, I decline to answer on the basis of my rights under
the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens, Are you cognizant of the Communist ownership and
control of the Prompt Press ?

Miss Popper, I again decline for the same reasons,

Mr, Arens, Are any of the works of People's Songs used at the
Metropolitan Music School ?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 625

Miss Popper. I wouldn't know. You see, we don't police the mate-
rials used by our teachers.

Mr. Moulder. May I ask what you mean by People's Songs, Mr.
Arens?

Mr. Arens. People's Songs is an organization which has been cited
which has published Communist Party songs.

Mr. Doyle. May I ask this question : I understand, Witness, that
you just said "We don't police the material," but I did not hear the
balance of your answer. That referred to this book, the People's
Songs.

Miss Popper. I said I would not know because I do not go around
asking the teachers what kind of materials they use.

Mr. Doyle. You did say, "We don't police." Did the rest of your
answer go to the point of not policing the material that is used in
your classes?

Miss Popper. No.

Mr. Doyle. Is that your answer ?

Miss Popper. That is my answer.

Mr. Doyle. In other words, the board of directors takes no respon-
sibility, and neither do you as the director, for wliatever is taught
in your classrooms ; is that correct ? That is your answer, is it not ?

Miss Popper. No, that is not my answer.

Mr. Doyle. "Wliat is your answer, then ?

Miss Popper. My answer is this, that the school has outlines that
are carefully worked out and painstakingly worked out for each term
and for what ground has to be covered during those terms. However,
T don't know which of the books are used or whicli books are not
used, and I would have no way of knowing it.

Mr. Doyle. Correct me if I am in error. Again I say that neither
you nor your board of directors takes responsibility for policing or
checking what books are used in your classrooms. That is correct;
is it not?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. Of course, we take responsibility for what is taught,
because what is taught is in the outlines that we give to the teachers.
However, we don't know every book at every time that is used.

Mr. Doyle. Of course not. But when you said that you did not
police the material, you were telling as, were you not, that you did
not check the material, by way of policing, to know whether or not
that was the only material that was used in your classroom? In
other words, a teacher could use material that you had not approved
as director ; and you would never know it because you did not police
it; is that not correct? That is what you meant to tell us?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Popper. Look, we know the basic material that is used is in
tlie outlines. However, we don't know at all whether this or tliat
material may not be used.

Mr. Doyle. That is riglit. That is what I was getting at. You
would not know what material was used, for sure.

Mr. Arens. Does the school have a scholarship arrangement where-
by certain students are given scholarships ?

Miss Popper. Yes, it does.

Mr. Arens. And who constitutes the board or the committee that
makes the scholarship awards?

626 COMMUNISM m metropolitan music school, Esrc.

Miss Popper. There is a scholarship committee.

Mr. Arens. Tell us who are on the scholarship committee.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Arens. May I ask you this question : Is Ray Lev on the scholar-
ship committee?

Miss Popper. No.

Mr. Arens. Is Lucy Brown on the scholarsliip connnittee?

Miss Popper. No.

Mr, Arexs. Is Ben Steinherg on tlie scholarship committee?

Miss Popper. No.

Mr. Arens. Is Thelma Pyle on tlie scholarship committee?

Miss Popper. No.

Mr. Arens. Is there a i)erson by the name of John F. Mehegan on
the faculty?

Miss Popper. Yes, there is.

Mr, Arens. Do you know whether or not JSIr. ISIehegan lias been a
member of the Communist Party ?

Miss Popper. I decline again on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Is Harry M. Smyles on the faculty of the Metropolitan
Music School?

Miss Popper. Sir, I resent — yes, he is on the faculty.

Mr. Arens, To your certain knowledge, is Harry Smyles a pei'son
who has been a member of the Communist Party ?

Miss Popper. Sir, I resent this inquiry very, very nnich, and I again
decline on the basis of the lifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Carroll Hoi lister is a member of the teacliing faculty?

Miss Popper. He is in a nonteaching member, but he is not teaching.

Mr. Arens. Is Robert Claiborne a member of the faculty of the
Metropolitan Music School ?

INIiss Popper, He is,

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us whether or not, to your certain knowl-
edge, Robert Claiborne has been a member of the Communist Party?

Miss Popper. The answer is the same, the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Would you repeat the answer?

Miss Popper. I decline to answer on the basis of my rights under
the first amendment and my right under the fifth amendment not to be
a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. Is Henry Zlotnick a member of the faculty?

Miss Popper. Yes, he is.

Mr. Arens, And to your certain Imowledge has he been a member
of the Communist Party ?

Miss Popper. I decline for the same reasons.

(At this point, Mr. Moulder left the hearing room.)

]Mr. Arens. In the selection of the faculty, do you, as director of the
Metropolitan Music School, make recommendations to the board of
directors ?

Miss Popper. Sir, I believe that in the closed hearing you asked me
whether I had my finger in the pie ; and I answered you then at the
time yes, I did have my finger in the pie. However, what happens is
the following : People write letters to the school, give us their back-
grounds. People come in person and consult with me. Then, on the
basis of whoever is the best person for that particular job, the person
is engaged after consultation with the board of directors.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 627

Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that in the
presence of this witness, another witness be sworn.

Mr. Doyle. Call your next witness.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Leonard Cherlin, please come forward. Remain
standing while you are sworn.

Mr. DoTLE. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Cherlin. I do.

TESTIMONY OF LEONARD CHERIIN

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that I intend to
question Mr. Cherlin at length, but I have only 1 or 2 preliminary
questions at this time.

Mr. Cherlin, would you kindly identify yourself by name, resi-
dence, and general occupation.

Mr. Cherlin. My name is Leonard Cherlin. I live at 182 East
59th Street in Brooklyn, and I am a musician and teacher.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Cherlin, as I said a moment ago, I intend to inter-
rogate you at length with reference to a number of items ; but at the
present time, may I ask, have you ever been a member of the Commu-
nist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. I have.

Mr. Arens. Give us at this time the years of your membership in
the Communist Part3^

Mr. Cherlin. From 1940 to 1943 and again from 1946 to approxi-
mately 1948.

Mr. Arens. During the course of your membership in the Commu-
nist Party, did you know as a Communist a person by the name of
Lilly Popper?

Mr. Cherlin. I did.

Mr. Arens. Do you see in the courtroom today the person whom
you knew as the Communist, Lilly Popper?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly ]>oint her out to this committee.

Mr. Cherlin. The witness.

Mr. Arens. Thank you. If you would wait a moment, Mr. Cher-
lin, I expect to interrogate you further.

TESTIMONY OF LILLY POPPER— Resumed

Mr. Arens. Miss Popper, you have heard the testimony of Mr.
Cherlin where he has identified you under oath as a person known by
him to be a member of the Communist Party. Will you look at him
and tell us, was Mr. Cherlin lying or telling the truth ?

Miss Popper. I decline to answer, on the basis of my rights under
the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of Miss Popper; and if there are ques-
tions of the committee, we will defer our interrogation of Mr. Cherlin
until the committee has concluded.

(At this point Representative Morgan M. jNfoulder returned to the
liearing room.)

Mr. Doyle. Are there any questions from the committee ?

628 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

If there are no other questions, I believe I have 1 or 2 questions, Mr.
Chairman.

Mr, Moulder. Proceed.

Mr. Doyle. Miss Popper, in view of your statement in answer to
one of counsel's questions, you said, "I object to this question as to my
political affiliations," do you remember so doing ?

Miss Popper. Yes, I do.

Mr. Doyle. In view of that answer as one of the alleged grounds
for your refusing to answer, I wish to state that I am sure the record
of the highest courts of this country shows, as well as several declara-
tions by the United States Congress both House and Senate, that in
the Subversive Activities Control Act, for instance, in the 81st Con-
gress, Congress made this declaration and this is the law.

I read this because of your answer that whatever affiliation you had
with the Communist Party, if any, was a political affiliation. I will
quote :

As a result of evidence adduced before various committees of the Senate and
House of Representatives, the Congress hereby finds that : There exists a world
Communist movement which, in its origin, its development, and its present prac-
tice, is a worldwide revolutionary movement, whose purpose it is, by treachery,
deceit, infiltration into other groups (governmental and otherwise), espionage,
sabotage, terrorism, and any other means deemed necessary, to establish a Com-
munist totalitarian dictatorship in the countries throughout the world through
the medium of a worldwide Communist organization.

The establishment of a totalitarian dictatorship in any country results in the
suppression of all opposition to the party in power, a subordination of the rights
of individuals to the state, the denial of fundamental rights and liberties which
are characteristic of a representative form of government, such as freedom of
speech, of the press, of assembly, and of religious worship, and results in the
maintenance of control over the people through fear, terrorism, and brutality.

The reason I read that into the record at this point is that this
committee is under a direction, under Public Law 601, under which
this subcommittee is here, fulictioning under that public law, and
that Congress does not recognize the Commmiist Party, with which
you have just been identified as a member, as a political organization
and neither does our high courts.

We hold, with micontradicted evidence, that it is a conspiracy to
set up a totalitarian regime. It is not a political party recognized by
Congress nor by our courts. So in my book, when you claim that
it is an interference with your political affiliation, I thought you ought
to know, if you did not already know — and I think you already
knew — that the Conunmiist Party is not a political organization such
as the Democratic or Republican Party. It is a conspiracy. That is
all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any other questions ?

If not, the witness is excused.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Cherlin, would you kindly take the principal
witness seat ?

TESTIMONY OF LEONARD CHERLIN— Resumed

Mr. Arens. Mr. Cherlin, give us, if you please, sir, at this time,
a brief thumbnail sketch of your musical education.

Mr, Cherlin. I took private music lessons first with an uncle of
mine ; and then, while I was at the Tilden High School, I won a schol-
arship at the Philharmonic Symphony Society, through which I

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 629

received music lessons under their auspices. Through this training,
I was able to become a professional musician.

Mr. Ajiens. And with what university have you been identified ?

Mr. Cherlin. I graduated Tilden High School in 1936 and worked
as a free-lance musician until approximately 1940-41, when I was
able to get several major jobs.

In 1943, I went into the service. I came out of the United States
Army in 1948. I then utilized the GI bill to go to Juilliard School of
Music for 4 years, and received my diploma from the Juilliard School
of Music.

I then was one of the fortunate people to receive a New York State
war service scholarship of $1,400 which helped me go to Teachers
College, Columbia, for the following 3 years, wherein I received my
B. S. and M. S. in music education.

That would be in answer to the music aspects of my education.

Mr. Arens. Could you kindly tell us again the circumstances of
your joining the Communist Party when you joined ?

Mr. Cherlin. The circumstances preceding my actual joining was
that I functioned as a music teacher in a Jewish fraternal organization
called the Jewish People's Fraternal Organization [Order].

Mr. Arens. Was that an adjunct of the International Workers
Order?

Mr. Cherlin. That is right. We would go from 1 lodge or 1 gi^oup
to another, a group of 3 or 4 teachers, where we would give lessons.
One or two of these people were party people ; and, in traveling from
one place to another, we would have discussions, political, theoretical,
philosophical, and practical; and pressures were put upon me to join
the Commmiist Party.

Mr. Arens. Wliat would be the nature of those pressures?

Mr. Cherlin. Philosophical pressures, the practical aspects of
whether being a member of the Communist Party would help facili-
tate working toward a better world, a better society; and idealistic
setup which would be one where a greater number of people could
benefit from the material worth of our country.

Mr. Arens. Now, kindly proceed in your own way to tell us about
your career in the Communist Party.

Mr. Cherlin. My answer finally was that when I would join Local
802, I would simultaneously join the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Local 802 is a musicians' local, is that correct?

Mr. Cherlin. Of the American Federation of Musicians; that is
right.

Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please, sir.

Mr. Cherlin. I joined in 1940 and simultaneously joined the Com-
munist Party branch of Local 802.

Mr. Arens. Now, tell us, if you please, of your career in the Com-
munist Party.

Mr. Cherlin. The activities of the Communist Party, Local 802,
revolved around having regular meetings at which there would be
philosophical discussions or educationals, fund-raising campaigns,
and discussions on how to facilitate the growth of Communist influ-
ence within Local 802.

Mr. Arens. And how long were you in the Communist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. At this particular period, from 1940 to approxi-
mately 1943.

630 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr, Arens. And what liappened iii 1943 ?

Mr. CuERiJN. In 1943 I got a job going on the road. I took a leave
of absence at that time. AA^ien I came back, I had "greetings" wait-
ing for me from Uncle Sam ; and I terminated membership with the
Communist Party and entered the United States Army. That was
Jime 1944.

Mr. Aeens. What was your period of service in the United States
Army ?

Mr. Cherlin. I served in the United States Army until 1946.

Mr. Arens. After your discharge, did you have any connection with
the Communist Party ?

Mr. CherlijS'. When I came back to the city, my first thought was
to reestablish my old contacts, try to find work, and immediately
rejoined the Communist Party of Local 802.

Mr. Arens. How long did you remain in the Communist Party?

Mr. Cherlin. Of Local 802?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Cherlin. For approximately a year or less because at that
time I enrolled in Juilliard, started to emphasize the teaching aspects
of my profession rather than tlie playing aspects, and was trans-
ferred to another Communist Party group which was not primarily
made up of Local 802 people or people that were interested in Local
802 affairs.

Mr. Arens. Do you recall the name of that new group with which
you were identified in the Communist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. I don't believe it had any name. It was just another
group within the cultural section of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. How long did you maintain j^our membership in the
Communist Party after you reaffiliated?

Mr. Cherlin. I reaffiliated in the middle of 1946, and I believe
when I left it was early 1948.

Mr« Arens. Wliat precipitated your breaking from the Communist
Party?

Mr. Cherlin. Two factors: One was that the Communist Party
was taking an ultrasectarian point of view that I did not agree with.
The so-called people's front, the popular front, period was over. And
there was a mass attack against everything that the United States
was fighting for in terms of rehabilitating European countries, the
Marshall plan; the factor of the expulsion of Earl Browder, who
had said that we were in a period of expanding capitalism and that
we should cooperate with the progressive capitalists points of this
country — these things disenchanted me at this particular point, plus
the subjective point that I became intensely interested in my school-
ing.

I had to work full-time, go to school full-time. I was married and
had a child. I had no time for political activities, social activities, or
any kind of leisure activities and the two synthesized into my just
going to party meetings less and less and eventually dropping out.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes. I joined — became a member of the staff in
1946, 1 believe.

Mr. Arens. And how long did you maintain your connection with
the school?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 631

Mr. Cherlin. Until approximately VJo'd when I took a leave of
absence. The leave of absence was supposed to be for 1 year. At the
end of that year, I received notification that I would have to renew
my leave of absence, which I did, for another year. At the end of
the second year, I received no notification, and I never notified them,
and the whole thing was allowed to ride.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Cherlin, w^hat is the significance or importance of
the music field to the Communist Party, and musicians to the Com-
munist Party ?

Mr. CiiERLiN. The significance would be the same of any enter-
tainment field or media which has people in the public eye, people
that have prestige and status and, on the basis of their prestige and
status, can influence other people.

Mr. Arens. What is the significance of the Metropolitan Music
School in the objectives of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. This is difficult to answer because in my workings
with the Metropolitan Music School, I never actually saw an actual
synthesizing of politicalizing and teaching of music. These things
were kept divorced.

There was a clientele of people that certainly ranged from the
extreme left to the extreme right. It was considered that politics and
business or music should not mix, as far as the Metropolitan Music
School procedures were concerned.

Any politicalizing, I would surmise, would take place after school
hours, after activities that the school might have, where possibly
people woidd come together in cafeterias or social gatherings and, in
discussion, any political points that might be had by the teacher or
student would be brought to the others in the group.

Mr. Arens. Does the teacher have a status of prestige with the
students beyond the prestige of just music ?

Mr. Cherlin. Depending upon the quality of the teacher and of his
personality, I would assume that there would be varying degrees of
prestige in terms of teacher-pupil relationship.

Mr. Arens. In the course of your membership in the Communist
Party, did you know, as a Communist, a person by the name of James
Collis?

Mr. Cherlin. I did.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us just a word about him ?

Mr. Cherlin. I knew him during the 1940-43 period.

Mr. Arens. Did you serve in a closed Communist Party meeting
with him?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Did you, in the course of your membership in the Com-
munist Party, ever serve in a closed Communist Party meeting with a
man by the name of Arthur Deutsch ?

Mr. Cherlin. I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Moulder, Can you give us more specific identifying informa-
tion about each one of the parties he has mentioned ?

Mr. Arens. May we start, then, with Mr. Collis? Could you tell us
anything further about Mr. Collis ?

Mr. Cherlin. He was f recjuently chairman of the meetings that were
held during this period.

632 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. Was he identified with the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. Cherlin. That I don't know because he wasn't at the Metro-
politan Music School when I was there.

Mr. Arens. Arthur Deutsch, kindly give us a word of description
or recollection about him.

Mr. Cherlin. My recollection is that he was never an active mem-
ber, but he did attend meetings of Local 802, party functions and
meetings.

Mr. Arens. These were closed party fractions within Local 802 ; is
that correct ?

Mr. Cherlin. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Communist, and serve in closed Com-
munist Party meetings with, a person by the name of John Imber-
gamo?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of description about him ?

Mr. Cherlin. He was not active in any official capacity ; but several
times when we had meetings in various boroughs, we would meet at his
home.

Mr. Arens. Those were Communist Party closed meetings; is that
correct ?

Mr. Cherlin. That is correct.

Mr. Moulder. The reason I asked the question was so that those
people would not be confused with others who have the same name. So
far you have not given any identifying information, such as descrip-
tion or some other fact, where they might be separated from someone
else who might have a similar name.

Mr. Arens. Where was Imbergamo's home?

Mr. Cherlin. He lived in Brooklyn.

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Communist a person by the name
of June Rotenberg?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a word of identifying informa-
tion with reference to her.

Mr. Cherlin. She attended meetings quite regularly. As far as
identification, she was a bass player, played the bass fiddle.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not she was ever identified
with the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. Cherlin. Not during the period I was there.

Mr. Doyle. And were the meetings she attended closed Commu-
nist Party meetings?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Gerald Rudy?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Give us a description about Gerald Rudy, so this record
is clear. Do you here and now identify Gerald Rudy as a person
known by you to have been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes. He was at closed party meetings. He was a
flute player and participated actively at meetings.

Mr. Arens. Sam Schneider?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes. He was the person who recruited me.

Mr. Arens. He recruited you into the Communist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Akens. And a word of identification?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 633

Mr. Cherlix, A clarinetist, saxophonist, and a music teacher.

Mr. Moulder. Can you give us some description about his age,
about where he resided, or where he may have worked ?

Mr. CiiERLiiSr. I believe he now lives in Brooklyn. So far as age,
I would only be guessing. AVe are all in our middle thirties or early
forties, I would say.

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Communist a person by the name
of Benny Berrafato?

Mr. CiiERLiiSr. Yes. He attended Communist Party meetings.

Mr. Arexs. Could you give us a word of description about him?

Mr. Cherlix. He was a clarinet player. He was an older man. I
would say he would be in the fifties. He was older than the rest of us.

Mr. Arexs. Could you tell us whether or not you knew as a Com-
munist, and served in closed party meetings with, a person by the
name of Gita Rosova ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arexs. Give us a word of description about that person.

Mr. Cherlix. She was quite active with the group.

Mr. Arexs. By "group-' do you mean the Communist Party?

Mr. Cherlix. The Communist Party group. What comes to mind
was that she was the only non-802 member who was a member of this
802 party group. An older woman, I would imagine she is in her
fifties.

Mr. Arexs. Did you know as a Communist, and serve in closed
Communist Party meetings with, a person by the name of Frank
Schwartz ?

Mr. Cherlix. Yes.

]Mr. Arexs. Give us, if you please, sir, a word of description about
Mr. Frank Schwartz.

Mr. Cherlix. He attended meetings; was not active, to my recol-
lection ; and, as far as I know, plays bassoon.

Mr. Arexs. Did you know as a Communist, and serve in closed
Communist Party meetings with, a person by the name of Jerry
Schneider ?

Mr. Cherlix. Yes.

Mr. Arexs. Could you give us a word of description about Mr.
Schneider ?

Mr. Cherlix. He came to meetings; was not active; and during
this period he got married and left, about 1940 or 1941 ; and I haven't
seen him since.

Mr. Arexs. These people concerning whom we have just asked you
were all known to a certainty by you to have been members of the
Communist Party, is that correct ?

Mr. Cherlix. That is correct.

Mr. Arexs. And it was during the period of your membership in
the Communist Party from about 1940 to 1943, is that correct ?

Mr. Cherlix. Yes.

Mr. Arexs. I would like to ask you with reference to people known
by you to have been members of the Communist Party in the second
session of your membership in the Communist Party, which you testi-
fied about, namely from 1946 to 1948.

Mr. Moulder. Before you begin, Mr. Arens, we will take a brief
recess.

91198— 57— pt. 1 3

634 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

(Present at the taking of the recess: Eepresentatives Morgan M.
Moulder, Clyde Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., Bernard W. Kearney,
and Kobert J. Mcintosh.)

(Members present after the taking of the recess: Eepresentatives
Morgan M. Moulder, Clyde Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., Bernard W.
Kearney, and Eobert J. Mcintosh.)

Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will be in order. Proceed, Mr.
Arens.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Cherlin, before the recess, I was in the process of
lX)sing to you a question A\'ith reference to people known by you to
have been members of the Communist Party during your second tenure
in the Communist Party from 1946, I believe you said, until 1948.

Mr. Cherlin. That is right.

Mr. Arens. You have previously told us about your knowledge of
Communist Party membership of Lilly Popper

Mr. Cherlin. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Who has identified herself on this record as director
of the Metropolitan Music School. Would you kindly hesitate a
moment and tell us the nature of your knowledge and activities with
Lilly Popper?

Mr. Cherlin. I attended closed party meetings at which she was
present.

Mr. Arens. And where were those closed party meetings?

Mr. Cherlin. Generally in the home of one of the people.

Mr. Arens. Did you know

Mr. Doyle, I have a question at that point. Counsel.

Was that home, at least when you were there, known to you to be
owned or occupied by a person identified to you as a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. Wliat was the address of that home, if you know ?

Mr. Cherlin. It was on Eiverside Drive, near approximately 125th
Street.

Mr. Doyle. And about how many people would attend those closed
Communist Party meetings at which you and Miss Popper were both
personally present at the same time ?

Mr. Cherlin. These were small group meetings of approximately
3 to 4 people.

Mr. Doyle. Were any people in attendance at any of these meetings
of the Communist Party at that home, which you now describe as
closed Communist Party meetings, known to you not to be Com-
munists? In other words, were they all known to you to be Com-
munists ?

Mr. Cherlin. To the best of my knowledge, they were all Com-
mimists.

Mr. Arens. Those were meetings to which only known comrades
could, by the security process of the party, be admitted ; is that cor-
rect?

Mr. Cherlin. That is correct.

Mr. Doyle. Was that a cell to which you belonged, a Communist
Party cell ?

Mr. Cherlin. It was a small group. It was called a group Avithin
the club. I have to make a point here. During this period, I was
quite inactive because of my schooling and work, and I made it

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 635

clear I could not attend meetings regularly. Meetings normally
would alternate. There would be a large meeting of the entire club,
followed by a small group meeting at someone's home.

Mr. Moulder. These were referred to as discussion groups ?

Mr. Cherlin. Discussion groups, educational groups. The meet-
ings I would attend would be the ones that were held at this particu-
lar home because it was convenient for me to attend. It was only
1 or 2 blocks away from the Juilliard School of Music and Columbia.
Other meetings, I just stayed away from because I was unable to
make the time for these meetings.

Mr. Doyle. May I ask you this: At any of those meetings at a
home to which you referred, did ]\Iiss Popper, whom you identified,
participate in the program by way of leading any discussion or read-
ing any paper or leading any discussion of the Communist Party
that you now recall ?

Mr. Cherlin. I have to make another point. This was one home
where I attended most of the meetings, but there were also meetings
that I can recall in Miss Popper's own apartment. I don't recall if
she attended any of the meetings at the Riverside Drive address.

Mr. Doyle. Did she have closed Communist Party meetings in her
own home which you attended ?

Mr. Cherlin. I believe there were 1 or 2 that I remember.

Mr. Doyle. Where was that addi-ess ?

Mr. Cherlin. 18 West 74th Street. She has an apartment in the
school.

Mr. Doyle. How many people would attend those meetings ?

Mr. Cherlin. Again, it would be a small group. I can^t recall for
sure.

Mr. Doyle. At any meeting that you attended at Miss Popper's
home, in the apartment at the school, which you testified to, did she
lead in any Communist Party discussion?

Mr. Cherlin. Not that I can recall. She was never active in any of
these capacities in the Communist Party, my assumption being that
her activities as director of the school were time consuming and, there-
fore, there would be no time for lier to participate actively in the
Communist Party.

Mr. Doyle. But, to your knowledge, these meetings were held at
her home ?

Mr. Cherlin. There were 1 or 2 that I can recall.

l\Ir. Moulder. You have used that phrase several times ''active in
Ihe (\)mmunist Party." How do you use it? "What does a person
have to do to b-e active?

Mr. Cherlin. An active person would be one who would accept
assignments to lead discussions, read up on pamphlets, and then lead
the educationals on these pamphlets ; a person who would be respon-
sible for the collection of dues; a person who would chair the meeting.
I sometimes functioned in the capacity of a literature agent where
I would assume the responsibility of going down to the Workers Book
Store or some other central place and picking up the literature and
bringing it to these party meetings. Inactive people, to my definition,
were those that came to meetings and who would listen, occasionally
give their viewpoints, but did not accept actual assignments in terms
of preparation for discussion and educationals.

636 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. DoTLE. May I ask this further question : Within what periods
of time did you attend any Communist Party meetings at Miss Pop-
per's home ? What years that you can identify ?

Mr. Cherlin. I would say that would be 1947.

Mr. Arens. Miss Popper this morning identified as a member of the
board of directors of the Metropolitan Music School a person by the
name of Thelma Pyle, whose name appears in the bulletin of the
Metropolitan Music School. Did you, in the course of your member-
ship in the Communist Party, know as a Communist a person by
the name of Thelma Pyle ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes. Thelma Pyle's home was the one I referred
to on Riverside Drive.

Mr. Arens. Did you serve in closed Communist Party meetings
with her ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a further word of description or char-
acterization of Thelma Pyle?

Mr. Cherlin. I don't understand what kind of description you
want.

Mr. Arens. Was she a musician?

Mr. Cherlin. She was a musician. I believe she was a piano
teacher. At that particular time, I don't even know if she was a mem-
ber of the Metropolitan Music School. Either she did studio teach-
ing or she taught at some other settlement school. I think that was
her sole source of income.

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Communist during your membership
in the Communist Party — the second tenure — a person by the name
of Mildred Hagler?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us a word about her?

Mr. Cherlin. She was a person who played cello, who taught cello
when there were cello students, and also functioned in the capacity
of a clerk or assistant secretary in the office of the Metropolitan Music
School.

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Conmiunist a person by the name
of Gita Rosova ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes. I have identified her before with the first
group, the 802 group. In this particular period, she was now active
outside of the 802.

Mr. Arens. And she is a member of the faculty of the Metropoli-
tan School, is she not ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes, and teaches violin.

Mr. Arens. Are there any other persons, whether or not I have
asked you their names, who, to a certainty, were known by you to
have been members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. Not to a certainty.

Mr. Arens. There are others whom you have told us about in
staff consultations whom you are not certain about, is that correct?

Mr. Cherlin. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. We, therefore, would not like to have you reveal their
names in this public session.

Did you have any experience in the Conmiunist Party with refer-
ence to employment practices initiated or promoted by the Com-

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 637

munist Party for the purpose of procuring jobs for the comrades
or for the purpose of precluding employment to anti-Communists ?

Mr. Cherlin. There was no overt showing of favoritism for Cona-
munist Party people or lack of favoritism for others. However, it
was assumed that people who were of like political feeling and be-
lief would have first choice if a job opportunity availed itself?

Mr. Aeens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Doyle, do you have any questions ?

Mr. DoTLE. Yes, I have a question, Mr. Chairman.

I think our committee counsel asked you as to your music train-
ing and practice and so forth. I did not hear you bring down to date
what your present activity was. Did you so testify ?

Mr. Cherlin. No, I haven't.

Mr. Doyle. T^'liat is your activity now ?

Mr. Cherlin. Well, to continue with my education, I left Teachers
College, Columbia, with my masters in music education in 1953. At
that time, I determined that I would prefer teaching younger chil-
dren, rather than children of high-school age, and went to New
York University for one semester for elementary school courses, after
which I became interested in working with retarded, mentally re-
tarded, children and emotionally disturbed children. I matriculated
at City College here in New York City for another masters in psy-
chological services in the field of special education. I am at present
specialist in remedial reading and do tutoring with emotionally dis-
turbed children and children who are retarded either academically
or intellectually.

Mr. Doyle. Wliat ages of children do you work with as a specialist
in that field?

Mr. Cherlin. I have been working with children between the ages
of 7 and 13, 1 would say.

Mr. Doyle. In your testimony, you used the phrase "philosophical
basis," in referring to one of the factors that was instrumental in
getting you originally into the Communist Party in 1940. Wliat
did you include or mean by philosophical factor or basis?

Mr. Cherlin. The philosophy of Marxism-Leninism, which was
that, on the basis of the principles enunciated under that term, a better
world could be built for all peoples in terms of a socioeconomic system
which would eliminate classes, and have the working class as the one
and only class in society.

Mr. Doyle. I know, but wliat has the philosophical premise of
Lenin and Marx to do with our own American economy ? IVliat is the
relationship, if any ?

Mr. Cherlin. The prsmise being that, as long as we had a capitalist
society, there would be alternate booms and busts ; that the working-
class people would never get their just due; that as long as a profit
motive existed, the working-class people would suffer.

Under the principles of Marxism-Leninism, if the capitalist system
could be changed to a Socialist or Communist one, the working class
could get their full worth, their full value, and booms and busts would
disappear in exchange for an ever higher level of living.

Mr. Doyle. In other words, the Communist Party, as you knew it in
1940 when you went into it, was advocating the application of Marx
and Lenin to the problems of the United States of America ?

638 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr, Cherlin. Yes. But in 1940 the problem was just a little dif-
ferent. The question ot socialism became secondary to the one of
stopping fascism ; and in those days, in those yeai-s, the primary prob-
lem was that of stopping Hitler. They had developed a popular-
front or democratic-front approach where they were collaborating
with other elements within our comitry.

Mr. Doyle. As I understand the emphasis by the Commmiist Party
as applied to our own beloved Nation, it is that they were advocating
then, and they advocate now, control of our economy by what they call
the proletariat or the so-called working class. I think in America we
are all working people.

Mr. Cherlin. Well, toward the end of World War II, when there
w^as a break within the Communist Party between the Browderites
and those who remained in control — Browder was eliminated, expelled
from the Communist Party — the Communist Party then adopted a
position of fighting for socialism, and took a direct frontal attack
against the socioeconomic position of our comitry.

Mr. Doyle. AVhat year was that, do you think ?

Mr. Cherlin. Toward tlie end of World War II, 1945^6-47.

Mr. Doyle. You mentioned Earl Browder. He was formerly the
head or general secretary of the Comnumist Party of the United
States.

Mr. Cherlin. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. I believe at the convention of the Conmimiist Party in
New York, in 1945 or thereabouts. Earl Browder was expelled and
reduced to no control in the Coimnimist Party as a result of what we
know as the Duclos letter, is that not true ?

Mr. Cherlin. That is true.

Mr. Doyle. In which the French Commmiist Duclos, writmg at the
direction of Moscow, delineated the fact that there could not be two
existing economies in the world at tiie same time, that one must survive,
and that that one must he the Soviet system of communism. Is that
not true ?

Mr. Cherlin. I never read the letter. I am assuming that is so.

Mr. Doyle. I did. I have read it often. Let me ask you this, if
you know, and I do know what the fact is, and that is why I base this
({uestion, to get it before you and tlie record and to those who may be
hearing this discussion: This same French Communist whose letter
from Moscow deposed Earl Browder, because Earl Browder said that
the American capitalist system and the Soviet system could exist in
the same world side by side at the same time, that French Communist
wrote another letter to the recent Communist Party convention held
right here in the city of New York about 0 weeks ago ; did he not ? You
have read of that ?

Mr. Cherlin. I read of that, yes.

Mr. D0Y1.E. All right. And again evidencing the fact that the
American Communist Party was looking to a foreign nation and for-
eign Communists to delineate what the American Communist Party
should do and follow ; again giving concrete evidence of a definite tie-
in between foreign Communists and the American Communist Party
right here in the city of New York at their national convention.

I want to just observe this, Mr. Chairman, in connection with that
Commmiist Party convention in this city. You talk about freedom of
the press. Unless the press reports themselves are inaccurate, there

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 639

was 110 freedom of the press at that convention because the American
press \yas not permitted to be there, either to take notes or photographs
of the proceeding.

I have one or two more questions. You stated that when you joined
Ivocal 802 you would simultaneously join the Communist Party. What
do you mean by that ? Your membership in 802 — did that pay your
dues in the Communist Party ?

Mr. CiiERLix. No. I said that at the time that I would join Local
802 I would also join the Communist Party.

Mr. Doyle. But that would be a separate membership ?

Mr. Cherlin. It would be a separate membership.

Mr. Doyle. Were you expected to join the Communist Party if you
joined Local 802, necessarily?

Mr. Cherlin. Not necessarily, no.

Mr. Doyle. Did you know at that time the condition of the leader-
ship, of Local 802? Were any of them known to you to be members
of the Communist Party? If they were, tell us, and if you do not
know, say so.

^Ir. Cherlin. To the best of my ability, none of them were mem-
bers of the Communist Party in leadership because the Communist
Party was trying to organize a coalition, together with non-Commu-
nists, to run a ticket to dispose of the people tlien in office.

Mr. Doyle. In other words, the Communist Party cell, consisting
of membership within Local 802, was trying to form a coalition with
the non-Communists to get out of office the officers of Local 802 be-
cause they were not Communists ?

Mr. Cherlin. That is an oversimplification, but I could go along
with that.

Mr. Doyle. All right. I notice this, that you said in 1943 you had a
leave of absence. That was from the Communist Party ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes. AMiat it amounts to was I took a job that meant
traveling for approximately several months.

Mr. DoYi.E. You did say that when you joined the United States
Army, your membei'ship in the Communist Party terminated.

Mr. Cherlin. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. ^AHiat made it terminate when you joined the United
States Army? I have heard of Communists who did not terminate
their Communist Party membership when they took on the uniform
of the United States Army. A^^ly did you ?

Mr. Cherlin. The temiination was one of ])rocedure. We were
told that, going into the United States Army, we officially terminated
our connection witli the party. This was not something of my choice
at that particular time; but this was tlie procedure that we were fol-
lowing within the party, or the party group that I had contact with.
A person going into service, actually severed relationship witii the
Communist Party.

Mr. Doyle. You stated that in 1948, or thereabouts, you discovered
that there was what I wrote dowai here as "a mass attack against every-
thing the United States Government was standing for."' I heard you
mention the Marshall ])laii. What did you refer to there?

Mr. Cherlin. Tlie post-World A^'ar II ])eriod when the question of
I'ehabilitation of wartorn Europe came to the forefront, and the Mar-
shall plan came up as a means of helping these wartorn comi tries to

640 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

rehabilitate themselves, the Communist Party said that this was a
medium for undermining these countries' attempts to achieve demo-
cratic peoples- front governments; and thereby the Communist Party
took the position of being against the Marshall plan and any kind of
rehabilitative efforts that we would direct toward these wartorn
countries.

I felt at this particular time that the most important thing was
helping these people, get food and clothing and shelter to them, and
that politics should be secondary to this primary consideration.

Mr. Doyle. jNIr. Chairman, I think in connection with the testimony
of this witness, I just want to read a reference to a statement by the
President of the United States. I read here a brief in the Svipreme
Court of the United States, October term, 1956, by the American
Bar Association. It is an amicus curiae brief in the case of Watkins
versus the United States of America, respondent. I read on pages 11
and 12 briefly :

"No clearer or more authoritative declaration could haA'e been given than the
message to the Joint Session of the Congress by President Eisenhower on
January 5th, 1957, setting out in detail the ever-pi-esent danger to American
institutions posed by the Soviet-inspired Communist Party. It is false to the
point of absurdity to dignify this conspiratorial organization as a 'political
party,' which its sympathizers and even some Courts are prone to do. Presi-
dent Eisenhower himself left no doubt as to the con\iction of the United States
Government that clear and present danger faces us from the Communist
conspiracy.

"The President in portraying the crisis through which America has passed
stated that the world has experienced 'instability which has been heightened
and at times manipulated by International Communism.' He answered in this
January 5, 1957, message the misguided zealots who would further temporize
with the Soviet propagandists when he said :

" 'International Communism, of course, seeks to mask its purpose of domina-
tion by expressions of good will and by superficially attractive offers of political,
economic, and military aid.' "

And then I wish to read just one brief paragraph from this same
brief, on page 8 thereof. For the purpose of brevity, I will just read
this statement quoted in the brief. It is substantiated by many court
decisions here cited :

"If Congress has the power to inquire into the subject of Communism and
the Communist Party, it has the power to identify the individuals who believe
in Communism and those who belong to the party."

At this point, Mr. Chairman, I want to read one sentence from
Public Law 601, under which this committee is operating here today.
I read from the congressional declaration of the powers and duties
of this committee. I read subdivisions (ii) and (iii) of section (2)
on this committee's duties and powers :

the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foriegn countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Con-
stitution, and all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress
in any necessary remedial legislation.

In closing, I wish to say this to this young man. I know, Mr.
Chairman, and other members of the committee will no doubt say
the same thing or join with me, tliat I recognize it has not been an
easy thing, or a comfortable thing, for this man to take the stand
here today and identify these people who were known to him to be
Communists. I know some people in this room would designate him

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 641

as a stool pigeon. Some of them smile at tUat, I notice. Well, in
my book, it lias come to be a showdown between the people that rec-
ognize their own Government as more important than anything else
and those who do not.

I want to compliment this gentleman for taking a very difficult
position — a very, very difficult position. It is not easy, it is not con-
venient, it is not comfortable. I do not know the gentleman, but I
know he could not have done it unless he had come to the point where
my book, it has come to be a showdown between the people who rec-
he recognized the unrighteousness, the danger to our form of govern-
ment and the American people by the international conspiracy. I
want to compliment you, sir, on doing what you have done.

You, Mr. Chairman, have heard me say in closing very often
that the work of this committee is not easy; it is not comfortable.
It is difficult for us to have to go into these things. But our duty
as American congressmen is to do it.

I have come to feel that the duty of any American citizen, knowing
what he knows about the Communist conspiracy, its determination to
conquer this Nation, if it can, by subversive infiltration and by force,
is to throw the Communist garbage out of his experience and to come
forth and help the security of his Nation by doing what this witness
has done this morning.

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Kearney, do you have any questions?

Mr. Kearney. The only question I would like to ask the witness
is this : Have you previously testified before us ?

Mr. Cherlin. No ; I haven't. This is the first time.

Mr. Kearney. This is the first time ?

Mr. Cherlin. Yes.

Mr. Kearney. Then I will forego the question that I was going
to ask 3^ou because I was under the impression that in our last appear-
ance here at the Maritime Building you did testify.

Mr. Cherlin. No.

]Mr. Moulder. Congressman Frazier.

Mr. Frazier. No questions.

]Mr. Moulder. Congressman Mcintosh.

Mr. McIntosh. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. I join with Mr. Doyle in
expressing our appreciation for your appearance and cooperation
before this committee.

Mr. Arens. The next witness is Mr. John K. Ackley.

Come forward please.

Mr. Moulder. You will be sworn as a witness, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Ackley. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN KENNETH ACKLEY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, MILDRED ROTH

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

642 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. AcKLEY. My name is John Kenneth Ackley. I live at No. 31
West 75th Street, New York City. I am employed as a registrar of
the Metropolitan Music School.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you b}^ the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?

Mr. Ackley. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel?

Mr. Ackley. I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify youi-self?

Miss Roth. Mildred Roth, 401 Broadway, New York City.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Ackley, are you now, or have you ever been, a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Ackley. I am not now a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Commmiist Party ?

Mr. Ackley. I decline to answer on the basis of my rights under
the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently, this moment, under Communist
Party discipine?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ackley. I decline to answer on the basis of my rights under the
fifth amendment of the Constitution. In other words, I do not choose
to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Kearney. Just a moment. You said — and you emphasized —
that you are not now a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Ackley. I did.

Mr. Kearney. If you are not a member of the Communist Party at
the present time, how can you be under Connnunist discipline ?

Mr. Ackley. The same answer, sir.

Mr. Arens. Now may I ask you this : Did you resign technical mem-
bership in the Communist Party so that you could face the world and
proclaim that you are not presently a member of the Commmiist
Party?

Mr. Ackley. Again, sir, I decline to answer that question on the
basis of my rights under the fifth amendment. I do not choose to be
a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, sir, that if you gave a truthful an-
swer, while you were under oath, to that last principal question, you
would be supplying information which might be used against you in
a criminal proceeding?

Mr. Ackley. ]\Iy answer is the same, for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
reflect an order and direction to this witness to answer the last out-
standing question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is so directed. You are directed to an-
swer in the spirit of advice, not in the spirit of threatening you, for
the purpose of warning you of the possibility that you might be en-
dangering yourself of being in contempt of Congress.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ackley. I honestly believe that any answer, other than I have
given, to this question could lead to prosecution and persecution by
this committee and the other arms of Government which it controls
or influences.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 643

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness a
question : Is that your answer or your attorney's?

Mr. AcKLEY. That is my answer.

Mr. Kearney. That statement that you have before you that you
just read was not written by your attorney?

Mr. Ackley. I pulled that out of my pocket, sir.

Mr. Kearney. That is all I wanted to know.

Mr. Arens. Back in 1941 were you employed in the public school
system here in New York City ?
' Mr. Ackley. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Cliairman, I respectfully suggest the witness now
l)e ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. Without objection, the committee so orders and
directs the witness.

Mr. Ackley. I decline to answer the question, sir, on the basis of my
rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution, and partic-
ularly, I do not choose to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not back in 1941 you were in the public high
school system, you would be supplying information which might be
used against you in a criminal pi'oceeding ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ackley. Yes. I honestly feel and fear that it might tend to
incriminate me.

Mr. INIouLDER. Do you mean answering that question itself might
tend to incriminate you, or that it might open up the door leading to
other questions which might tend to incriminate you ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. If it removes the veil, you thereby would be waiving
your right to claim the privilege. Therefore, you refuse to answer
because it might tend to lead to other questions which might tend to
incriminate you ?

Mr. Ackley. It might be a link or it might open the door, as you
say, and would be a question that would tend to incriminate me.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you a thermofax reproduction of the New
York World Telegram of Saturday, June 7, 1941, and a photostatic
reiH'oduction of the Commiuiist Daily Worker of April 24, 1941, with
reference to your suspension from the New York school system.

Kindly look at those articles and tell us whether or not the facts
recited there with reference to your suspension are true and correct?

(The documents were handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Ackley. Sir, I decline to answer the question on the basis of my
right under the fifth amendment. I do not choose to be a witness
against myself.

(Docuinents marked "Ackley Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. How long have you been registrar of the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Mr. Ackley. I have been registrar of the Metropolitan Music
School since August 1946.

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us, if you i^lease, the statistics with refereiice
to the enrollment, let us say, in the aggregate over the course of the
last 10 yeai*s in the Metropolitan Music School.

644 COMMUNISM m metropolitan music school, inc.

Mr. AcKLEY. I have never taken that sort of statistic. Our enroll-
ment statistics are taken each semester, the fall and spring of each
year. They are used by us only for guidance purposes, budget, and
so forth; and I have never taken into account duplications from term
to term or year to year.

Mr. Arens. Duplications in the same person ?

Mr. AcKLEY. In the same person.

Mr. Arens. Miss Popper testified, if I am not mistaken in my recol-
lection, that the enrollment was somewhere between 375 and 400 per
semester. Is that substantially correct?

Mr. AcKLEY. That is the average ; yes.

Mr. Arens. Has the enrollment in each semester over the course of
the last 10 years been substantially the same?

Mr. AcKLEY. There has been a variation within 50. It has reached
a little over 400 a couple of times during the last 10-year period.

Mr. Arens. WHiat has been the minimmn ?

Mr. AcKLEY. I don't recall, but it has been in the neighborhood of
375.

Mr. Arens. Tell us, if you please, in general appraisal, the age
groups within the school. About how many do you have m the school
in each of the various age groups ?

Mr. AcKi^EY. Not having any statistics in front of me, it is a diflBicult
question to answer. We have children beginning at the preschool
ages and

Mr. Arens. And about how many in that category ?

Mr. Ackley. Probably 15 or 20 a semester.

Mr. Arens. Now, proceed, if you will, and give us comparable in-
formation on eacli of the other age groups.

Mr. Ackley. Then we have preparatory departments where more
specific training is given. Please understand, I am not a musician.
I am a technical employee of the school. There are preparatory
courses in the woodwind instrument recorder, in piano, and in what
we call exploration in instruments where the children learn the differ-
ence, for instance, between a bassoon and a cello. Those classes are
largely for 6-year-olds and 7-year-olds, before they have reached the
readiness, age.

Mr. Ajiens. "VVliat is the number that are in that category ?

Mr. Ackley. Twenty to thirty a semester.

Mr. Arens. Give us comparable information on the next age group-
ing, please, sir.

Mr. Ackley. The next age group — I don't know. That probably
runs into a hundred or so.

Mr. Arens. What is the age limit there, the minimum and the
maximum ?

Mr. Ackley. There really is none.

Mr. Arens. Are we now in the adult group ?

Mr. Ackley. No. We are now in the field of instrumental study.

Mr. Arens. And there would be about 100 in that category, do
you say ?

Mr. Ackley. At least a hundred.

Mr. Arens. From there on, you do not have age groupings ; is that
correct ? ,

Mr. Ackley. That is right.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 645

Mr. Arens. Do teachers of the Metropolitan Music School teach
in the Neighborhood Music School and do teachers in the Neighbor-
hood Music School teach in the Metropolitan Music School ? In other
words, is there an interchange of faculty between the two institutions ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. AcKLEY. There is no interchange, but I believe that some
teachers teach in both institutions.

Mr. Arens. And where is the Neighborhood Music School located,
please sir ?

Mr. AcKLET. I should know the address. It has escaped me. It is
in the Bronx.

Mr. Arens. And did the Neighborhood Music School at one time
have a legal connection with the Metropolitan Music School?

Mr. AcKLEY. Not that I know of.

Mr. Arens. Was it at one time a branch, a subsidiary, of the Metro-
politan Music School ?

Mr. AcKLEY. I first heard that from you, sir, at the closed hearings.

Mr. Arens. Has Paul Kobeson ever, to your knowledge, been affi-
liated with the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. AcKLEY. To my knowledge, Paul Kobeson has never been affili-
ated with the Metropolitan Music School.

Mr. Arens. Has he ever entertained at the Metropolitan Music
School?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ackley. He has appeared in the building.

Mr. Arens. And what occasioned his appearance there ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ackley. Some years ago, there was a function in connection
with an observation of Negro History Week ; and Mr. Robeson, as 1
recall, appeared at that meeting.

Mr. Arens. Is, or was, Paul Robeson a member of the Metropolitan
Music School ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ackley. He may have been. I don't know.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you now for the purpose of refreshing your
recollection the 20th Anniversary Almanac of the Metropolitan Music
School, the Citizens' Committee for the Metropolitan Music School.
I invite your attention specifically to page 6, on which the name of
Paul Robeson appears as one of the members of the Citizens' Com-
mittee.

Would you kindly look at that exhibit and see if that refreshes
your recollection ?

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. AcitLEY. My answer is still the same, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. Arens. You have no recollection ?

Mr, Ackley. I have no recollection of it. I read here in print that
he was an honorary chairman.

Mr. Arens. Of the Citizens' Committee?

Mr. Ackley. Well, my recollection — in other words, my recollec-
tion does not coincide with that. I do not recall that to be the case.

(Document marked "Ackley Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

646 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. Have you, in the course of your performance of official
duties as registrar of the JMetropolitan Music School, taken direction
or orders from a person known by you to have been a member of the
Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. AcKLEY. I don't understand the question. What person ?

Mr. Arens. Any person, known by you to have been a member of
the Communist Party. Have you— I will repeat the question. Per-
haps the phraseolog-y may have been a little puzzling to you. Have
you, in the course of your official duties as registrar of the Metropoli-
tan Music School, performed those duties in compliance with direc-
tions which you have received from a person or persons known by
you to have been members of the Communist Party ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. AcKLET. I decline to answer the question on the basis of my
rights under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Moulder. To clarify that question by Mr. Arens: Have you
received directions or mstructions from a person, in coimection with
your work in the Metropolitan Music School, who was a Communist
and who was giving you such directions and instructions in the capa-
city of a Communist?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Moulder. The way the question was given, I am. tidying to
(clarify it to you, as to whether or not it is being dominated or super-
vised by Communist Party activity in any way whatsoever.

Mr. AcKLEY. Quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, the question is con-
fusing. May I ask for a repetition of the question?

Mr. Arens. The question is this, in its simplest form : You are now
the registrar of the Metropolitan Music School and have been for
many years ; is that correct ?

Mr. AcKLEY. Yes.

Mr. Arens. And you have certain duties that you perform as
registrar ?

Mr. AcKLEY. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Now, in the performance of those duties, have you
accepted directives or orders from a person or persons whom you
knew to be a member of the Commmiist Party ?

Mr. Moulder, Acting in the capacity of a Connnunist. I would
like to add that to the question.

(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)

Mr. AcKLEY. The 2 questions, the one put to me by counsel and one
put to me by you, Mr. Chairman, seem to be 2 separate questions.
t^Hiose question am I to answer ?

Mr. Arens. Do you want to start over?

Mr, Moulder. You declined to answer his question, claiming the
privilege under the Constitution. Do you understand my question?

Mr. AcKLEY. Would you repeat it, please ?

Mr. Moulder. Have you ever received instructions from persons
who are acting in the capacity as a Communist when giving yiou
such instructions and supervision ?

(The witness conferred with his comisel.)

Mr. AcKLEY. I wish I had time to go into how the school functions;
but the things that I do in my capacity as registrar of the school are
things which, for the most part, are routine.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 647

Mr. Moulder. I am trying to clarify and hel]> you to this extent.
I can understand the question pi-opounded hy counsel. Some person
might have given you directions sometimes who was a Communist, and
you might not have even known that he was a member of the Commu-
nist Party ; and then someone would come along and say that you did
receive instructions. Then, you would claim the fifth amendment
under the Constitution. But my question is giving you an opportunity
(() give a very direct answer to it.

Mr. AcKLEY. In the first place, I don't need directives in order to
fulfill my function to prepare statistics and enroll students.

Mr. Arens. You ]:)reviously invoked the fifth amendment with ref-
erence to any prior membership in the Communist Party on this
record, but did not invoke the fifth on the question of present member-
ship. You invoked the fifth w-ith reference to the question of the
Communist Party discipline. I should now like to ask you : Were you
a member of the Connnunist Party 5 years ago ?

Mr. Ackley. I decline to answer that question on the basis of my
rights under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Connnunist Party 4 years
ago?

Mr. Ackley. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 8 years
ago?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

(At this point Representative James B. Frazier left the hearing
room. )

Mr. Ackley. No.

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member, a technical member, of the
Communist Party any time since the enactment of the Internal Se-
curity Act in 1950 ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Ackley. I decline to answer that question on tlie basis of my
rights under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staif interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Congressman Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. Any questions, General Kearney ?

Mr. Kearney. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Mcintosh ?

Mr. McIntosii. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. That will be all, Mr. Ackley.

Call your next witness.

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you jjlease, Mr. Chairman, will be
Mr. Wallingford Riegger.

Mr. MotjXDer. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give before this committee will be the ti'uth, the w^hole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Riegger. I do.

TESTIMONY OF WALLINGFORD RIEGGER, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, LEONARD B. BOUDIN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation ?

648 COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. RiEGGER. My name is Wallingford Riegger, and I reside at
506 West 113th Street, N"ew York City.

Mr. Arens, And your occupation, please, sir ?

Mr. Riegger. Composer.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ? Are you appearing today

Mr. Riegger. Yes, sir; correct.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Riegger. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel will you kindly identify yourself?

Mr. BouDiN. Leonard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New York 4,
N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Riegger, are you president emeritus of the Metro-
politan Music School ?

Mr. Riegger. I am. But now, if I may be permitted, Mr. Chairman,
I should like to know the reason for this hearing.

Mr. Kearney. I think, Mr. Chairman, if the witness will answer
the questions, he will soon find out.

(At this point Representative James B. Frazier entered the hearing
room.)

Mr. Moulder. The witness is, I am sure, fully informed as to the
purposes of the hearing.

Mr. Riegger. Pardon me. I came late. I am sorry.

Mr. Arens. Perhaps this question will help us, Mr. Witness: Are
you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party ?
That will give us at least an inkling as to what the hearing is about.

Mr. Riegger. Well, with your permission, Mr. Chairman, I should
like to state briefly my objections to the procedures of this committee,
to its assumption, and to its assumption of authority.

Mr. Kearney. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
answer Counsel's question. We are not interested in a speech.

]\fr. Moulder. Yes. You are directed to answer the question pro-
pounded by Counsel.

Mr. BouDiN. I don't think it was clear from the witness' statement
that he was raising a question as to jurisdiction of the committee and
that he wishes to read a brief statement addressed to the jurisdiction
of the committee. I would suggest that he be permitted to do that.
This is not an argument and is not an answer. This is a statement
which the witness wishes to read, raising objections to the committee's
jurisdiction.

Mr. Moulder. Let us see his statement.

Mr. Riegger. May I read it first ?

Mr. Moulder. May we first see the statement? Let us examine
the statement.

Mr. Riegger. Am I not permitted to read it ?

Mr. Moulder. We do not know what is in the statement.

Mr. Riegger. This is a free country.

Mr. Doyle. Your counsel knows that the rules require that any
proposed statement be submitted to the committee before being asked
to be read. We have not had a copy of that statement.

Mr. Boudin. Mr. Moulder, what Mr. Doyle is referring to, of
course, is a statement by a witness — not to what the Supreme Court has
referred to as a statement of objections. It is only that that the wit-

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 649

iiess wishes. It will take 1 minute, if you will allow him to make his
statement.

Mr. Moulder. It will take only a second for him to hand it up
here.

Mr. BouDiN. I see no reason why you cannot look at it. Suppose
you show it to the chairman. And then will you permit the witness
to read it, Mr. Chairman ?

( The document was handed to the committee. )

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I object to the introduction of that
statement or having it read by the witness. This is no court of law.

Mr. BouDiN. I think, Mr. Moulder, you will agree that a witness
alw^ays has a right to state an objection.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Boudin, you know the rules of this committee do
not permit time for counsel to argue.

Mr. BouDiN. I am not arguing.

Mr. Doyle. You are taking time of the committee. I ask you to
desist, please.

Mr. Moulder. Please. Let us have order.

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, I move that the witness not be allowed
to read that statement.

Mr. Frazier. I will second that.

Mr. BouDiN. Mr. Chairman, I should like

Mr. Moulder. Wait a moment. I have not ruled on it yet. It has
been moved and seconded that the witness should not be permitted
to read the statement for the record.

Mr. Kearney. Let me explain my reasons. In this statement here,
when you are asked questions by counsel, you have the privilege of
stating everything that is in this statement in objections to the ques-
tions propounded to you by counsel. For that reason, I think it is
a lot of waste of time.

Mr. Moulder. It has been moved and seconded. Mr. Doyle, how
do you vote ?

Mr. Doyle. Aye.

Mr. Frazier. Aye.

Mr. McIntosh. Aye.

Mr. Kearney. Aye.

Mr. Moulder. A majority of the committee has so voted to deprive
the witness of the privilege* of reading this statement. I, for myself,
would have no objection. That is my position on it. How^ever, 4 of
the 5 members of this committee have so ruled; and, therefore, the
witness will not be permitted to read the statement.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, there is a question outstanding on this
record. So tliat the record will be clear, the question outstanding,
Mr. Riegger, is: Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of
the Communist Party ?

Mr, Riegger. I respectfully decline to answer on the following
grounds : The first amendment of the Constitution of the United States
reads, in part, as follows :

Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech or of the press
or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble.

The House Committee on Un-American Activities by its actions
contravenes both the spirit and the letter of this amendment. The
fact that Congress has legislated this committee into existence by no

91198— 57— pt. 1 4

650 COMMUNISM m METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

means justifies the committee's unconstitutional procedures. As an
American, I would fear the loss of my self-respect were I to submit
to its interrogatories.

Mr. Kearnfa'. I tliink you should be perfectly satisfied, Mr. Witness.

Mr. EiEGGER. Well, in eft'ect, I am.

Mr. Arens. Now, :Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that on
this point

Mr. IVIouLDER. That is what he intended to give in response to your
first question. I saw no objection to him responding in that manner.

INlr. Arens. On tliis issue of wliether or not this man has ever been
a member of the Communist Party, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully sug-
gest that, in his presence, another witness be sworn. Mr. Lautner,
would you kindly stand, please ?

Mr. Moulder. You clo solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
notliing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER

Mr. Arens. Identify yourself by name, address, and occupation.

Mr. Lautner. John Lautner. I am a Government consultant on
communism, and I live in Youngstown, Ohio.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Lautner, liave you ever been a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Please tell us the period of your membership in the
Communist Party.

Mr. Lautner. From 1929 to 1950, with the exception of the period
of time I was in the Armed Forces during the war.

Mr. Arens. Tell us just the highlights of the posts which you held
in the Communist Party.

Mr. Lautner. I was a Communist Party functionary from the
year of 1030 all the way up to the time I left the Communist Party
on the I7th of January 1950.

I was district organizer, section organizer, national bureau secre-
tary of the Communist Party. The last posts that I held were head of
the New York State Review Commission of the Communist Party and
a member of the National Review Commission of the Communist
Party.

Mr, Arens. Mr. Lautner, during the course of your membership in
the Communist Party, did you know as a Communist a person by the
name of Wallingford Riegger ?

Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you see in the courtroom now the person who was
known by you to be a member of the Communist Party by the name
of Wallingf ord Riegger ?

Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Will you kindly point him out to the committee?

Mr. Lautner. He is in the witness seat.

Mr. Riegger. You are looking at me?

Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 651

TESTIMONY OF WALUNGFORD EIEGGER— Resumed

Mr. Arexs. ]Mr. Riegger, j'ou have just heard tlie testimony of
Mr. John Lautner, in which he identifies you as a member of the
Communist Party ; is that correct ? You heard the testimony.

Mr. Riegger. I respectfully decline to answer for the reasons al-
ready stated.

Mr. Akexs. You just heard his testimony, first of all ^

Mr. Riegger. I can't help it.

Mr. Arexs. I just ask you whetlier you heard his testimony.

Mr. Riegger. I am hard of hearing.

Mr. Arex^s. Mr. Lautner, let us repeat it so there will be no ques-
tion as to the hearing of this gentleman : Do you see in the hearing-
room now, the person known by 3-011 to have been a Communist by
the name of Wallingford Riegger?

Mr. Lautxer. Yes.

Mr. Arexs. Did you hear him, Mr. Riegger ?

Mr. Riegger. I think I did.

Mr. BouDix". Mr. Chairman, may I ask the chairman a question
on procedure? It is very unusual to have a witness interrupted by
another witness coming in. Are we permitted to cross-examine Mr.
Lautner ?

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest

Mr. Moulder. Under the rules of the committee, you are prohibited.

Mr. BotT)ix. Under the rules of the committee I am not permitted
to cross-examine Mr. Lautner ?

Mr. E^earxey. You have appeared before this committee on several
occasions.

Mr. BocDix-^. I have never had a witness interrupt a client of mine
the way he has done.

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Riegger, was Mr. Lautner lying or telling the trutli
when he just now swore that he knew you as a member of the Com-
munist Party.

Mr. Lautx'er. Functionary.

Mr. Arex'S. As a functionary of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Riegger. I respectfully decline to answer on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Lautner
be excused.

Mr. Moulder. Can you give us information more specifically as to
the time and place and under what circumstances and conditions.you
liave made the statement about this witness and identifying him as a
member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir; in 1933 I was made section organizer of
the Commimist Party on the West Side, a territory which was from
59th Street to 110th Street and from Central Park west to the Hudson
River.

I functioned there as a section organizer from the fall of 1933 up
to April 1936. All during my section leadership up there, Walling-
ford Riegger was a branch functionary in various capacities of one
of the branches in my section of the Communist Party in New York.
He was treasurer, branch organizer, and on the side he was also sec-
retary of an organization called the Pan-American Composers Union.
Whatever it was, I don't know. But in the course of those 3 years.

652 COMJMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

he was a member of that section. We met on numerous occasions,
week in and week out.

Mr. Moulder. What kind of meetings ?

Mr. Lautner. Party meetings. Either functionary meetings or —
in most instances at functionary meetings called by the section
leadership.

Mr. DoTLE. You mean Communist Party functionary meetings?

Mr. Lautner. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been president emeritus of the
Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. Eiegger. I respectfully decline to answer that question and all
succeeding questions on the basis of the first amendment.

Mr. Aeens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question for the reason that the
present posture of the record is that he has asserted, while he was
under oath, that he is presently president emeritus of the Metropolitan
Music School. The door is open for the interrogation as to the length
of his tenure as president emeritus of the Metropolitan Music School.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question; and, in so ordering and directing you to answer, we are
not doing so in the spirit of threatening you or to coerce you, but for
the purpose of advising you and informing you of the possible dangers
of being in contempt of Congress and for the purpose of advising
you that we do not accept your response to the question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Eiegger, At the risk of being repetitious, I will just have to
say that I still stand on my rights as guaranteed by the first amend-
ment to the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been an officer of the Pan-American
Composers Union ?

Mr. Eiegger. The first amendment of the Constitution reads in part
as follows

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Eiegger. At the risk of boring my audience, I will again cite
the first amendment for this and all

Mr. Moulder. You refuse to answer, claiming the privilege under
the amendment, the first amendment to the Constitution ?

Mr. Eiegger. Correct. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Tell us, if you please

Mr. Moulder. You are claiming the first amendment. Therefore,
the committee again orders and directs you to answer for the same
reasons which I previously stated.

Mr. Eiegger. I do not like to consume the time of this committee
here, but my answer is the same; and it will always be the same, no
matter if you ask me whether I am in this room.

Mr. Arens. Now, sir, please tell us, were you formerly president of
the board of directors of the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. Eiegger. The answer is the same as I have indicated.

Mr. Moulder. And you are again ordered and directed to answer.

Mr. Eiegger. I again repeat.

Mr, Arens. Where and when were you born ?

Mr. Eiegger. Well, the first amendment of the Constitution reads
in part as follows :

COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 653

Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, of
the rights of the people peaceably to assemble.

The House Committee on Un-American Activities by its actions con-
travenes both the spirit and the letter of this amendment. The fact
that Congress has legislated this committee into existence by no means
justifies the committee's unconstitutional procedures. As an Ameri-
can, I would fear the loss of my self-respect to submit to its interroga-
tories.

Mr. Moulder. You are advised by the committee that we do not
accept that as a proper response to the question which was propounded
to you as to where and when were you born. Therefore, you are again
ordered and directed to answer the question propounded by Counsel
as to where and when you were born.

Mr. KiEGGER. I am sorry that you don't regard that as adequate. I
will simply repeat what I said before, if you wish me to read this all
over again.

Mr. Doyle. May I just observe this to you, Mr. Witness. You are
not being smart when you are doing this. It is not being smart.

Mr. RiEGGER. I am simply asserting my rights.

Mr. DoTLE. It is not smart at all. I want to say, Mr. Chairman,
that I think we are entitled to know whether or not this man is an
American citizen. If he is, how did he come by it ? Was he born in
some foreign country ? If he was, what country ?

Mr. Kearney. Facetiously, Mr. Chairman, I think we are entitled
to an answer to the question as to whether he was born or not.

Mr. Doyle. Of course, under the first amendment, it might incrim-
inate him, according to his pleading.

Mr. Moulder. The witness has been given ample opportunities to
respond to the question. Proceed, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. You identified yourself in an opening colloquy with
me a little while ago, Mr. Riegger, as a musician or composer, as I re-
call. Is that right ?

Mr. Riegger. Correct, yes.

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, just the highlights of your
career in the musician-composer field.

Mr. Riegger. This would be a wonderful chance for some publicity,
but with great modesty

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BouDiN. Can the witness finish his answer ?

Mr. INIouLDER. Yes.

Mr. Riegger. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds pre-
viously given.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the wit-
ness be ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is so ordered and directed to answer
the question, and we again advise you of the possible dangers of being
in contempt of Congress for your refusal to answer.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, what is the status of this record? I
am a little confused.

Mr. Moulder. He was consulting with counsel.

Mr. Arens. Is there a question outstanding?

Mr. Riegger. It is simply this : That, in regard to the date and place
of my birth, I will consent to answer, because it seems a bit ridiculous

654 COMMUNISM m metropolitan music school, inc.

not. to. I was born in 1885 in Albany, Ga., of American parents.

Mr. Arens. Now, give us, if you please, sir, a brief sketch of your
education.

Mr. RiEGGER. I feel that that is infringing on my rights. I had an
education, I can assure you. It seems to have been adequate. Biit
I do not see as I am obliged to answer the details of it before this
committee.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. We refuse to accept your response to the question.
You are ordered and directed to answer.

Mr. RiEGGER. I will answer as before ; that is, standing on my rights
as guaranteed under the first amendment to the Constitution.

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, before counsel asks another ques-
tion, I move that the committee adjourn until 1 : 45 and that you direct
the witness to reappear at that time.

Mr. Moulder. Without objection it is so ordered. The witness will
reappear before the committee at 1 : 45 p. m.

(Whereupon, at 12: 30 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 1 : 45 p. m. the same day. )

(Meinbers present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Mor-
gan M. Moulder, Clyde Do3de, James B. Frazier, Bernard W. Kearney,
and Robert J. Mcintosh.)

AFTERNOON SESSION, TUESDAY, APRIL 9, 1957

(Committee members present: Representatives Moulder, Doyle,
Frazier, Kearney, and INIcIntosh.)

Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will be in order.
Mr. Riegger, will you resume the witness stand, please ?

TESTIMONY OF WALLINGFORD RIEGGER— Resumed

Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Riegger, are you an instructor at the Metropolitan
Music School, in addition to your post as president emeritus ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. RiEGGER. I respectfully decline to answer for the reasons pre-
viously given; that is, that of the first amendment, and so on.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
now, on this record, be ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is so ordered and directed.

Mr, RiEGGER. I respectfully again decline for the same reason.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us some of the highlights of your
career in the field of music ?

Mr. RiEGGER. Tempting though this may be, I still claim the pro-
tection of the first amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chainnan, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr, Moulder. You are ordered and directed by the committee to
answer the question, INIr. Riegger.

Mr, RiEGGER. And I respectfully repeat my declining.

Mr. Arens. Have you been the vice president of the American
Composers Alliance?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 655

Mr. RiEGGER. I respectfully decline to answer that question for the
same reason.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is so ordered and directed to answer.

Mr. RiEGGER. I thought I made myself clear that, from now on, I
decline to answer any further questions on the basis of the first amend-
ment. I am sorry.

Mr. Moulder. At this point in the proceeding, as suggested by
Congressman Doyle, I wish to show that all members of the subcom-
mittee are present.

Mr. Arens. Have you been president, or an official, of the American
Chapter of International Society for Contemporary Music?

Mr. Riegger. I should also like to decline, for the same reason, any
answer to that question.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is requested to answer the question.

Mr. Riegoer. My answer is the same as before.

Mr. Arens. What was your gainful employment immediately prior
to your present status with the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. BouDiN. Can we have the question repeated ?

Mr. Arens. Your gainful employment — what was your last gainful
employment ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Rlegger. I respectfully decline to answ^er, as before.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer.

Mr. Riegger. I will have to repeat myself.

Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you, if you please, sir, a photostatic
reproduction of the Communist Daily Worker of Wednesday, March
5, 1941, in which a number of people sign a statement in defense of
the Communist Party, including, according to this document, Walling-
ford Riegger, NeAv York City.

Would you kindly look at the document as it is displayed to you
and tell us whether or not you are truthfully and accurately recorded
there as one who signed that statement ?

(A document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Riegger. I will admit that this is my name here, and I don't
see why I should not have signed it. I think I would have signed a
similar thing today, because it calls attention to the legality —

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Riegger. This is a petition addressed to Congress and to the
President.

Mr. Arens. Thanlv you, sir.

(Document marked "Riegger Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files. )

Mr. Arens. Now, I should like to invite your attention to still an-
other exhibit.

Mr. BouDiN. Mr. Moulder, could we have the question and answer
repeated? I think there is some confusion in the answer.

Mr. Moulder. Probably so.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. BouDiN. Could I have a second ?

656 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr, RiEGGER, It was not just yesterday, you know.

(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. BouDiN. Could we, if you don't mind, Mr. Moulder, have the
question and answer repeated 'I

Mr. Moulder. Yes.

(The question and answer were read by the reporter.)

Mr. BouDiN. I think the witness wants to add to his answer or
change his answer.

Mr. Moulder. You have conferred with the witness ?

Mr. BouDiN. Yes.

Mr. RiEGGER. I should like to supplement that answer by saying that
I decline to answer that question now, or any more particulars about
it, on the grounds of the first amendment.

Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you, if you please, sir, a thermofax
reproduction of an article from the Communist Daily Worker, en-
titled, "Leading Artists, Educators Support Soviet Trial Verdict,"
with reference to the trial in Moscow of the so-called Trotskyite people
who were tried and convicted and shot. This article refers to a state-
ment issued in support of the verdict and trial of the Trotskyites in
Soviet Russia. It bears the names of a number of signatories, includ-
ing Wallingf ord Riegger.

Kindly look at that document and tell this committee while you
are under oath, please, sir, if you caused your name to be used in
connection with that statement.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. RiEGGER. I decline for the same reason as before ; that is, on the
grounds of the first amendment.

(Document marked "Riegger Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files. )

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, in view of the
answer of the witness, he be ordered and directed to answer that
question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is so ordered and directed.

Mr. Riegger. I again respectfully decline to answer for the reason
before stated.

Mr. Arens. Now, I lay before you a thermofax reproduction of an
open letter which appeared in New Masses, December 1940. It is a
letter defending Luiz Carlos Prestes, a leader of the Brazilian Com-
munist movement. This is a letter addressed to the President of
Brazil. It bears the names of a number of people, including that of
Wallingford Riegger, musician. New York City.

Kindly look at this document, wliile you are under oath, and tell this
committee whether or not you caused your name to be affixed to that
open letter or permitted your name to be used in connection with that
open letter.

Mr. Riegger. I decline to answer for the same reason as stated
before.

(Document marked "Riegger Exhibit No. 3," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that last principal question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is so ordered and directed.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 657

Mr. Reegger. I respectfully decline, for the reasons given before.

Mr. Arens. Have yon been a member of, or a sponsor of, the Na-
tional Council of American-Soviet Friendship?

Mr. RiEGGER. I respectfully decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you now, two documents in which you
are identified as a sponsor, or in an official capacity with the National
Council of American-Soviet Friendship. Kindly look at those docu-
ments and tell this committee while you are under oath whether you
are truly and accurately described in your capacity there with the
national council.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Riegger. I again respectfully decline to answer for the rea-
son given previously.

(Document marked "Riegger Exhibit No. 4," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that last outstanding question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed as requested by counsel.

Mr. DoTx,E. Counsel, may I ask you this: I have in my hand the
Guide to Subversive Organizations and Publications as revised by
the House Committee on Un-American Activities, on January 2, 1957.
I refer to page 61 thereof. I see here the National Council of Ameri-
can-Soviet Friendship (see also American-Soviet Science Society,
Congress of American-Soviet Friendship) and I read as follows:

1. Cited as subversive and Communist.

{Attorney General Tom Clark, letters to Loyalty Review Board, released
December 4, 1947, and Septemher 21, 19J,8.)

2. "In recent months, the Communist Party's principal front for all things

Russian has been known as the National Council for American-Soviet
Friendship."

(Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House Report 1311 on
the CIO Political Action Committee, March 29, 19U, p. 156.)

3. Cited as specializing in pro-Soviet propaganda.

(Internal Security Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee,
Handbook for Americans, S. Doc. 117, April 23, 1956, p. 91.)

4. Found to be a "Communist-front organization" and ordered to register as

such with the Attorney General of the United States.

(Subversive Activities Control Board, Decision of February 7, 1956. )

This apparently, then, is the same organization about which you are
questioning this witness, is that correct ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Congressman Doyle ?

Mr. Doyle. No question.

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Kearney ?

Mr. Kearney. I have no question, Mr. Chairman, but I would like
to make an observation as far as I am personally concerned. I think,
in view of the witness' contemptuous disregard for this committee of
Congress, that when a proper time comes, I am going to make a
motion that he be cited for contempt.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions, Congressman Frazier ?

Mr. Frazler. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. Have you any questions. Congressman Mcintosh ?

Mr. McIntosh. No questions.

658 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. You may claim your wit-
ness fees from the clerk of the committee.

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Robert
Claiborne. Kindly come forward, Mr, Claiborne.

Mr. Moulder. You will be sworn as a witness, Mr. Claiborne. Do
you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothmg but the
truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Claiborne. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT CLAIBORNE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LEONARD B. BOTJDIN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, address, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Claiborne. Robert Claiborne, 58 Banks Street, New York City.
My occupation is musician, teacher, and writer.

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today, Mr. Claiborne, in response
to a subpena by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. Claiborne. I can assure you I am not here voluntarily. Yes,
I am appearing by subpena.

Mr. Arens. Have you counsel ?

Mr. Claiborne. Mr, Boudin.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Boudin, will you identify yourself ?

Mr. Boudin. Leonard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New York, N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Claiborne, where are you employed ?

Mr. Claiborne. Before we go into that, would you introduce
yourself, sir ?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Claiborne, where are you employed?

Mr. Claiborne. Could you let me have your name, sir ?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, these theatricals that he is now under-
taking to pull on the committee were pulled, as the chairman knows
or some members of the committee know, when we were in executive
session, I, therefore, now suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the question without further tactics such as these.

Mr. Doyle. May I say to the chairman that I remember that this
gentleman asked the same smart (Question in executive session.

Mr. Moulder, Tlie witness is ordei-ed and directed to answer the
(juestion,

Mr, Boudin, Let me say that I do not recall that question being
asked, Mr, Doyle.

Mr. DoTLE. I do. I did not forget it. I noted it innnediately at
tliat time — a few weeks ago.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question? Where are
you employed ?

Mr. Claiborne. Mr. Chairman, I am frankly in some doubt as to
whether I can with safety answer this question. Would you advise
me, sir? Does this committee consider the teaching of music an un-
American activity?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question that is outstanding.

Mr. Claiborne. I was addressing the Chair, sir, not you.

INIr. Moulder. Your response is not proper.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 659

Mr. Claiborne. I would like to know before I respond what the
committee's view^s are on this subject.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is directed to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. May I answer that? The w^itness knows veiy well
this committee does not hold the teaching of music as an un-Ameri-
can activity. Now, go ahead.

Mr. Claiborne. Well, I was curious.

Mr. Arens. Kindly answer the question. Where are you employed (

Mr. Claiborne. I am employed at the Metropolitan Music School.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity %

Mr. Claiborne. I am instructor in guitar and also head of the
fretted instrument department.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been connected in this capacity
witli the Metropolitan Music School?

Mr, Claiborne. Do you mean as instructor?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Claiborne. I think since 1946.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been head of the fretted instru-
ments department ?

Mr. Claiborne. I am not quite sure. I think it is a matter of
2 or 3 years, but it is not quite clear in my mind.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the board of directors
of the Metropolitan Music School?

Mr. Claiborne. Yes, I was at one time.

Mr. A-Rens. Do you recall the approximate time of your service?

Mr. Claiborne. I think it was from about 1948 until the spring of
last year, when I was forced to resign by pressure of family duties.

Mr. Arens. And what have you taught at the Metropolitan Music
School ? "V\^iat courses ?

Mr. Cl^viborne. I have taught the glntar and a course in nuisical
t heory related to the guitar for students of the guitar.

Mr. BouDiN. May I interrupt by asking tlie chairman a question?
As indicated, the witness testified in executive session on this same
general subject. It would seem to me desirable for him to have the
executive session minutes here, if they are in the room, while he
testifies.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that counsel now
be admonished that his sole and exclusive prerogative in this proceed-
ing is to advise his client as to his constitutional rights.

Mr. MouiJ)ER. That is correct, and the request is refused. Let us
proceed.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Claiborne, have you ever been connected with the
('itizens' Coimnittee for the Metropolitan Music School?

Mr. Claiborne. To the best of my recollection, I was a member
of, or possibl}' an officer of, that organization. I could not give you
1 he dates.

Mr. Arens. Were you the publicity director of the Citizens' Com-
mittee for the INIetropolitan JNIusic School ?

Mr. Claiborne. Have you any printed material

Mr. Arens. Yes. Perhaps this would refresh your recollection.
I have here the 20th Anniversary Almanac of the Metropolitan Musii;
School ; and I invite your attention specifically to page 6, in which
your name appears. Bob Claiborne, publicit}^ director, under the head-
ing of the Citizens' Committee of the Metropolitan Music School.

660 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Claiborne. That looks right. That looks right.

(Document pre^dously identified as "Ackley Exhibit No. 2," re-
tained in committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been identified or connected with the
People's Songs, Inc.?

Mr. Claiborne. Wliat do you mean identified or connected ?

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been an officer or an incorporator or an
official of People's Songs ?

Mr. Claiborne. I seem to recall that I was an incorporator of it,
in a more or less formal capacity.

Mr. Arens. Do you recall when that was, approximately?

Mr. Claiborne. I should think it would have been in 1946.

Mr. Arens. Were you on the editorial board of People's Songs?

Mr. Claiborne. Do you mean a publication ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Claiborne. I may have been. I have no independent recollec-
tion of it.

Mr. Arens. Perhaps this would refresh your recollection. I have
here a thermof ax reproduction of the masthead of People's Songs, in
which the editorial board is listed, including one Bob Claiborne, whose
name also appears as a member of the board of directors of People's
Songs.

Kindly look at that document while it is being displayed to you
and tell the committee while you are under oath whether or not that
refreshes your recollection.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Claiborne. It isn't necessary. I am not disposed to deny it.

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell us whether or not you will
affirm it?

Mr. Claiborne. I cannot independently recollect the truth of it.
As I say, I see no reason to deny it. It was a perfectly legal organ-
ization, engaged in perfectly lawful activities, and I have no objection
to letting the record stand, that you have stated I was a member of
the editorial board. I don't deny that I was. I just can't say inde-
pendently, of my own recollection, that that was the case.

Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.

(Document marked "Claiborne Exhibit No. 1" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Now, do you recall authoring a song called The Gol-
dern Red?

Mr. Claiborne. You are not going to tell me this committee is going
to investigate songs ?

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ? Do you recall
authoring a song called The Gol-dern Red ?

Mr. Claiborne. Yes ; certainly I recall.

Mr. Arens. I should like

Mr. Claiborne. The song was directed, as a matter of fact, against
investigations such as this — if I may anticipate your next question —
as contrary to the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. It was a song that was directed against the Committee
on Un-American Activities, was it not ?

Mr. Claiborne. Among others.

COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 661

Mr. Arens. The song reads as follows :

I went up to my boss one day to ask hiiu for a raise.

He wept and said he didn't have the dough.
Well, I knew for all his crying that that plutocrat was lying,

And that's just what I told the So-and-so.

And what d'ya think he said?
"Why, you're nothing but a gol-dern Red (straight from Russia) .

You're nothing but a gol-dern Red.
Yes ; and if the truth be told, you're receiving Moscow gold.

Yes ; you're nothing but a gol-dern Red."

(Document marked "Claiborne Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. At this point I would like to ask you : Are you, Kobert
Claiborne, now, or have vou ever been, a member of the Communist
Party?

Mr. Claiborne. Mr. Chairman, would you advise me on this: In
answering this question, I would like to, for the record, attach certain
qualifications to my answer. Is it your wish that I state my qualifica-
tions first and then answer the question, or answer the question first
and then state the qualifications to it ?

Mr. Moulder. I am rather confused myself.

Mr. Clajborne. Well, it is very simple. Do you want me to an-
swer the question and then state the qualifications that I have to my
answer? I want to attach certain qualifications to it, certain reser-
vations, certain statements for the record, in relation to the answer.
Or do you want me to state the reservations first and then give the
answer ?

Mr. Moulder. You proceed to answer the question as you choose.

Mr. Claiborne. O. K. Well, then, if ;70u give me my choice, I
will state first, before answering the question, that I object

Mr. Moulder. I see what you mean now. No. Answer the ques-
tion and then give your reasons therefor.

Mr. Claiborne. Very good. Very well. The answer to the ques-
tion is that I have not, for a number of years, been a member of the
Communist Party. Now, in connection with that, I would like to
observe for the record that I object to this question. I object to any
similar question of myself or of anyone on the matter of political
beliefs or political affiliations, on the grounds that it is not within the
purview of the lawful power of the Congress to investigate where it
cannot legislate, as the Constitution says, on matters of speech, of
association, of assembly, and so forth. So I would like the record to
be quite clear that I am answering this question, not because I for
one moment concede the authority of this committee to ask it or re-
quire me to answer, but merely because I choose to answer it.

Mr. Moulder. That does not fully answer the question. Mr.
Claiborne, the question was, Are you now, or have you ever been, a
member of the Communist Party. Your response was that you have
not been a member of the Communist Party for a number of years, and
then you gave your reasons for making that statement.

Mr. Claiborne. What is the procedure?

Mr. Moulder. The question is pending. You partially answered
the question. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Claiborne. Very good. Now, on that subject, I decline to
answer, and my reasons for doing so are as follows : First, the grounds

662 COIVUMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

I have already stated, that the asking of such a question is outside
of the constitutional powers of Congress ; indeed, in my opinion, the
existence of this committee is in violation of the constitutional powers
of Congress. That is my first reason. My second reason is that this
committee is attempting to deprive me of my constitutional liberties
"without due process of law. My third reason is a little bit more com-
plicated. I would like it on record that, to the best of my knowledge
and belief, I have committed no crime. Nonetheless, there is a pos-
sibility that a truthful answer to this question might result in my
being indicted on some broad political charge.

I am quite certain that I would not be convicted on such a charge,
but I am equally certain that winning an acquittal, which I would do
and could do, would cost me several thousand dollars, which I do not
have. I am, therefore, compelled to invoke my constitutional privi-
lege not to be a witness against myself because I cannot afford to
engage in litigation.

Mr, Arens. Now, sir, the record reflects that you stated a moment
ago that you have not been a member of the Communist Party for a
number of years.

Mr. Claiborne. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. For how many years have you not been a member of
tlie Communist Party ?

Mr. Claiborne. Well, I don't think I care to be — ^wait a minute.
Yes, that question is correctly put. I thought for a minute it was
a little bit loose. I would prefer not to be too precise about it^ Let
us say for not less than 3, and not more than 5, years.

Mr. Arens. You have not been a member of the Communist Party
for not less than 3, or more than 5, years, is that correct?

Mr. Claiborne. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Did you resign, technically, membership in the Com-
munist Party so that you could face the world and deny truthfully
technical membership in the Communist Party ?

Mr. Claiborne. Mr. Counsel, you are forgetting that I have at no
time said that I was a member. Therefore, questions about resigning
are a little bit out of order, don't you think ?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this record re-
flect an order and direction to tlie witness to answer the last outstand-
ing question.

Jkir, Moulder. Yes; the witness is ordered and directed to answer
the question. As I stated before, the direction is given to advise and
inform you that the committee refuses to accept your response to the
question and advises jou of the possible danger of being m contempt
of Congress.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Claiborne. Could I have the question again, please?

(The pending question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. Claiborne. I seem to gather from this, Mr. Counsel — I believe
your name is Arens, isn't it, sir ?

Mr. Moulder. That is correct.

Mr. Claiborne. I seem to gather from this, Mr. Arens, that, accord-
ing to your theory, there are two kinds of membership in the Com-
munist Party, technical membersliip and nontechnical membership.
I am frank to say that this is not in accordance with m}^ understand-
ing of the subject. I wish you would enligliten me.

COMMUNISx. IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 663

Mr. Arens. I am glad, to have you make that observation. Now,
tell us, what is the source of your understanding of the subject?

Mr. Claiborxe. I have done a good deal of reading and studying.

Mr. Akens. Is there any other source of your information on the
subject?

Mr. Claiborne. What subject ?

Mr. Arens. The subject of membership in the Communist Party.

Mr. Claiborne. Well, to the best of my belief, there is only one
competent source on the qualifications and requirements of member-
sliip in the Communist Party and that is the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Do you base your conclusion or observation on per-
sonal experience in the Communist Party ?

Mr. Claiborne. Well, now, you know that is just another way of
asking if I have ever been a member; and I have already refused to
answer that, giving my ground in full. I am certainly not going to
answer it under another guise.

Mr. Arens. In view of that answer, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully
suggest that he be ordered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Kearney. Mr. Chairman, let me get this straight in my mind.
With all the witness' evasions here, I am getting pretty well con-
fused over his testimony. Did I understand you to say a minute
ago, in response to tlie counsel's question, that you had not been a
member of the Communist Party from either 3 to 5 years ?

Mr. Claiborne. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Kearney. That is what I thought.

Mr. Claiborne. Not less than 3 and not more than 5.

Mr. Kearney. Not less than 3 nor more than 5 ?

Mr. Claiborne. Without any implications to the period before that,
whether I was or was not. That I do not affirm and do not deny.

Mr. Kearney. Well, you want to eat your cake and have it, too?

Mr. Claiborne. No, sir. I made a statement that I had not been
a member of the Communist Party within a particular period of
time. As to a particular period prior to that, I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. You deny technical membership in the Communist
Party so that you could face the world and deny membership in the
Coimnunist Party?

Mr. Claiborne. What do you mean "technical membership''? It
seems to me that you are either a member or you are not.

Mr. Arens. Did you resign membership in the Connnunist Party?
We will start there.

Mr. Claiborne. Well, to answer that, I would obviously have to
state, to admit what I have refused to admit, that I was a member.
Therefore, I certainly can't answer that.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I certainly suggest, in view of this re-
sponse, that the witness be ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
({uestion.

Mr. Claiborne. I refuse to on the same grounds that I essentially
refused to answer a moment ago.

Mr. Arens. Now, I have another

Mr. BouDiN. May I ask if the record is clear as to the reasons for
t he witness' refusal ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, we understand that.

664 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. BouDiN. I certainly did not want it to interfere with your
examination, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. We appreciate that. We have here a song, "It's My
Union," words and music written by Bob Claiborne. Do you recall
writing that song, "It's My Union." ?

Mr. Claiborne. What happened to the other song, by the way?
We w^ere on that and somehow we got off it.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I now respectfully suggest and request
that the witness be ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Claiborne. I certainly have no reason to conceal that, Mr.
Chairman. I am very proud to have written that song.

As a matter of fact, it was the official Labor Day song in San Fran-
cisco in 1946 or 1947, 1 am told.

(Document marked "Claiborne Exhibit No. 3," and retamed in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Was that written in connection with the work of the
Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers Union ?

Mr. Claiborne. I believe that it was. I am trying to remember
the exact circumstances. I think that actually it was written on com-
mission from them. It is a fine union, one of the oldest in this counti-y
and a very strong union. I was a member of it at one time.

Mr. Arens. Had it been expelled from the CIO as a Communist-
controlled union as of the time you wrote the song for it, or on com-
mission from it?

Mr. Claiborne. Do you have any dates on when that expulsion
took place ?

Mr. Arens. I have the date here of your song. It is copyrighted
in 1947. I was wondering if you could recall whether or not that was
before or after the expulsion of the International Union of Mine, Mill
and Smelter Workers.

Mr. Claiborne. Don't you know when the expulsion took place?

Mr. Arens. It was in 1947.

Mr. Claiborne. They are both in 1947. I really don't have any
recollection one way or the other.

Mr. BouDiN. Mr. Chairman, the expulsion referred to took place
in 1948 or 1950 of various unions from the CIO. I don't want Mr.
Arens to be misled.

Mr. Arens. We have it here in the record. I can check it.

Was the commission to you to write this song, "It's My Union," a
commission directed to you by any person known to you to have been
a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Claiborne. The commission, as I recall, was directed to me
by officers of the union.

Mr. Arens. Wlio were they ? Do you recall ?

Mr. Claiborne. Lord, it is a long time ago.

Mr. Arens. Was Maurice Travis one of the officers who commis-
sioned you to write this song ?

Mr. Claiborne. As I recall, this was a matter that was handled by
letter; and I couldn't truthfully tell you now who signed the letter.
This is a matter of 10 years ago. It was not a continuing contract
over the years. I am not even sure I ever met Mr. Travis, let alone
whether he signed the letter. I think it may have been. This is
purely a very loose opinion. It may have been Gran [Graham] Dolan
who was, I believe, at that time, educational director of the union.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 665

Mr. Arexs. Do 3'ou know wliether Mr. Dolan is a Communist or
has been a Communist ?

Mr, Claiborne. I haven't seen Mr. Dohm^ — I think I met him in
1947.

Mr. Arens. Now, answer the question. Do you know whether Mr.
Dolan is or has been a Connnunist?
Mr, Claiborne. No, I have no notion.

Mr. Arens. Did you cliano;e your position with reference to the
International Union of ^Mine, ]\Iill and Smelter Workers, concern-
\n^ which or<^anization you wrote this laudatory song, after you
learned that it had been ejected from the CIO because the CIO found
that it was controlled by the Communist conspiracy ?

Mr. Claiborne. Just a moment. Your question contains a perhaps
natural, but not quite correct, assumption. The song was written
not specifically in praise of the Mine, INIill and Smelter Workers,
but in praise of any union which is democratically controlled by its
members as opposed, let us say, to a union such as the one Mr. Dave
Beck is connected with. That sentiment in favor of democratic mem-
bership control of unions is one that I remain in favor of absolutely.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Now, a little while ago, you were lauding the
International Union of Mine, Mill and Snielter Workers, were you
not?

Mr, Claiborne. From my observation which — understand, I am
not a specialist, but I try to keep up to date — from my observation,
it is a union which has fought very hard for better conditions for
its members, many of whom have hard and very dangerous jobs. It
is a union which has, I understand, even brought a measure of
democracy to some of the company towns out in our great Mountain
States, where the towns used to be entirely under the domination of
mining companies.

]Mr. Arens. Did you know that Maurice Travis, the head of that
organization or the principal moving force of the organization, has
been repeatedly identified under oath as a member of the interna-
tional Communist conspiracy?

Mr. Claiborne. I may have read something of that sort. I don't
really recall. I will tell you truthfully, Mr. Counsel, that I don't
really care. Mr. Travis, from my observation, is doing a fine job for
his members; the members elect him, and he is the man they want, I
say in this country, thank God, people are still free in some cases to
elect people whom they want to represent them.

Mr. Arens. Now, I would like to ask you, if you please, about a
fighting songfest, which, according to the Communist Daily Worker,

was held at a IManhattan theater here

Mr. Claiborne. Here in New York ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir; under the auspices of the Music Section of
the Communist Party, and one of the leading lights in this fighting
songfest, according to the Communist Daily Worker of April 13, 1949,
page 7, is one Bob Claiborne.

Kindly look at this advertisement which will now be displayed to
you and see if that, first of all, refreshes your recollection with ref-
erence to that fighting songfest.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Moulder. Let counsel examine the document, also,

91198— 57— pt. 1 5

666 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. BouDiN. Thank you.

(The witness conferred with his connseL)

Mr, Claiborne, You don't mean the three prosecutors at Foley
Square ?

Mr. BouDiN. What was the question, Mr, Arens?

Mr. Arens. I think he knows.

Mr. Claiborne. Do I recollect this ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, Were you the Robert Claiborne connected there
as one of the leaders of this fighting songfest held under the auspices
of the Communist Party at Manhattan Center on the date indicated
on the Communist Daily Worker ? I believe it is in 1949,

(The witness conferred with his counsel,)

Mr, Claiborne. Frankly, Mr, Arens, at this time, I was appearing
sometimes several times a week at various musical programs or some-
thing of the sort, singing ; and I have no independent recollection of
this thing. As a matter of fact, I am afraid you are mistaken.

It says here it is the Yugoslav- American Home, not Manhattan
Center. That doesn't help matters, I am afraid. I just have no inde-
pendent recollection of 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, and 1951. I must
have appeared at several hundred occasions where I sang.

Mr. Arens. You have no independent recollection of it, is that
correct ?

Mr. Claiborne. I have no independent recollection.

(Document marked "Claiborne Exhibit No. 4," and retained in
Committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Thank you. Now, I would like to come up a little more
in the chronology of your life, and perhaps we can get to a time
when you do have recollection.

I have here a photostatic copy of the Communist Daily Worker of
Thursday, July 1, 1954, "Packed Rally Honors Ben Davis." He was
former city councilman here, as you know, and repeatedly identified
as a member of the national committee of the Communist conspira-
torial apparatus. According to this Communist Daily Worker of
1954, in this packed rally honoring Ben Davis, there was a "cultural
salute to Davis" by songs by a number of people including "Bob
Claibourne,"

Please look at this as it is displayed to you and see if that refreshes
your recollection with reference to that occasion,

(A document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Claiborne, It doesn't seem to be clear, here, whether this refers
to songs sung by or written by. It says songs by,

Mr. Arens. Were you in attendance at that session?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Claiborne. I have only a very dim recollection of this thing.
I will say, to the best of my recollection, it was not sponsored by the
Communist Party. I think that is all I can say on the subject,

Mr, Arens, Does your dim recollection include a recollection of
your attendance or participation in that affair for Ben Davis ?

Mr, Claiborne, I have no clear picture of it in my mind. You
have to understand that, when over a period of years, you have at-
tended many, many meetings, musical events, and so forth, one tends
to blur into another. It is conceivable that I might have been there.
It is equally conceivable that they might have gotten my name from

COMMUNISM nsr METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 667

somewhere else. I honestly don't know. Or it may have been that
tliey just used songs which I had written but without my personal
presence.

(Document marked "Claiborne Exhibit No. 5," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Perhaps you could help us on this next one, then.

Mr. Moulder. How do you know it was not sponsored by the Com-
munist Party ?

Mr. Claiborne. The story doesn't say so here. Let us put it this
way, as I recollect my general feeling. In 1954, while I certainly
would have appeared at an event sponsored by some nonpartisan or-
ganizations against the Smith Act which I regarded then, as I regard
now, as a dangerous and unconstitutional and un-American piece of
legislation

ISIr. IvEARXEY. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that the witness
answer the question instead of making these continuing speeches. It
is nothing but a stalling game. He has been that wa}^ ever since he
has been on the stand.

Mr. Claiborne. I am tiying to answer the question, ]\Ir. Kearney, if
you will give me a chance. I am trying to give you my reasoning as
to why I don't think it was sponsored by the Communist Party.

As I say, while I would have attended a rally protesting the Smith
Act for the reasons that I have given, I do not think, as I recollect
my thinking, my feelings at the time, that I would have cared to at-
tend a rally sponsored by the Communist Party.

]\Ir. Moulder. That is going on the assumption, then, that you did
attend such a rally, the rally referred to by counsel ?

Mr, Claiborne. That is going on the assumption that I did attend.
As I say, I haven't got any clear recollection. But assuming that it
was not sponsored by the Communist Party, I would say it was pos-
sible that I did. Assuming that it was sponsored by the Communist
Party, I should say it was quite likely that I did not.

Mr. Moulder. Proceed with the next question.

Mr. Arens. As a person who is on the faculty of the Metropolitan
Music School, do you presently have information respecting people
who are on the faculty of the Metropolitan INIusic School, who, to your
certain knowledge, have been members of the Communist Party?

Mr, Claiborne. Let me have that again, please.

Mr. Moulder. Should the question be phrased as, do you have any
such knowledge? Do you have any knowledge of any members of
the faculty ?

Mr. Claiborne. I have no knowledge as to the political affiliations
presently as to any members of the faculty.

Mr. Arens. Take out the word "presently." Do you know people
on the faculty who, to your certain knowledge, have been members
of the Communist Party ? By faculty, I mean faculty of the Metro-
politan Music School.

Mr. Claiborne. When you say "certain knowledge," precisely what
does that mean ?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Claiborne. How can you be certain about a thing like that ? I
am getting to a point, Mr. Counsel. The only way that I think, from
what I have heard, that one can be certain is if one was a member of

668 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

the Communist Party with them. Since you have already asked me
whether I ever was a member and since I have ah^eady refused to
answer, then I am going to refuse to answer the question, no matter
how you dress it up.

Mr. Moulder. For what reasons ?

Mr. Claiborne. For the reasons that I ah^eady refused to answer
the question of "Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party ?" It is the same reasons.

Mr. Arens. Perliaps you can lielp us on the next exhibit. This is
a photostatic reproduction of this Communist Daily Worker of May
19-19 (May 4). I want to invite your attention specifically to this
article about a review put on by the Communist cultural division
[Music Section of the Cultural Division of the Communist Party].
It was given in the honor of the 12 indicted Communist party leaders.

Mr. Claiborne. What was the date?

Mr. Arens. 1949. I should like to read you an excerpt from this
article :

Now, Is The Time, a program of songs and topical satire. Auspices of the
Music Section of the Cultural Division of the Communist Party. Script by
Lee Hays. With Bob Claiborne, Betty Sanders- —

and so forth.

Kindly look at that article as it is displayed to you and see if it
refreshes your recollection with reference to your participation in
the script, or in the production of the songs, for this cultural unit
of the Communist Party in its commemoration of tlie indictment of
the 12 Communist traitors.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Claiborne. Correction please. They were not, as you very
well know, sir, convicted of treason. They were convicted of teaching,
and conspiring to teach, the overthrow of the Government. The Con-
stitution is very specific on tlie definition of treason.

Mr. Kearney. The verdict of the jury was specific.

Mr. Claiborne. Yes, to advocate and teach the overthrow of the
Government by force and violence. It was not convicting them of
advocating, but conspiracy to advocate.

Well, I think I am going to refuse to answer this on the same
grounds as I already gave.

Mr. Arens. Is it the lack of recollection or is it something else?
I want the record to be sui'e.

Mr. Claiborne. No, this is the same grounds as I gave on tlie ques-
tion of "Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?"

(Document marked "Claiborne Exhibit No. 6," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Now, I would like to lay before you a photostatic repro-
duction of still another issue of the Communist Daily Worker, New
York, April 1, 1949 (p. 5). It is a brief article. I will read most of it :

Anti-Franco Songs at Peace Caucus

A new series of anti-Franco songs will be premiered at the Joint Anti-
Fascist Refugee Committee's Caucus for Peace in Manhattan Center, Monday
evening. Pete Seeger, .Toe Jaffe, Ernie Lieberman and Bob Claiborne of People's
Artists will present tlie new songs which have been specially written for the
occasion.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 669

Kindly look at this exhibit as it is displayed to you, please, sir, and
see if it refreshes your recollection with reference to the production
b}^ yourself of certain son<;s which were used on that occasion.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Claiborne. Excuse me. It does not say the songs were written
by me. As a matter of fact, to the best of my recollection, they
weren't. It merely says they will be presented by, and I am quite
free to say that I was there — as I will always, I hope, be at any
manifestation against Franco.

(Document marked "Claiborne Exhibit No. 7," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you been participating in any manifestations
against Stalin?

Mr. Claiborne. He is dead. Franco isn't.

Mr. Arens. During his lifetime, did you participate in any mani-
festations against him?

Mr. Claiborne. I don't know that anybody ever asked me.

Mr. Arens. You didn't volunteer or initiate any such demonstra-
tion ; did you ?

Mr. Claiborne. I haven't done much in the way of volunteering or
initiating demonstrations, Mr. Arens. Where I have been asked,
and where I agreed with the purpose of a manifestation or a demon-
stration, I have always tried to say where I stood, quite frankly.

Mr. Arens. Then tell us frankly now, where you stand with refer-
enc to Comrade Stalin.

Mr. Claiborne. You are referring to him, I suppose, as your com-
rade because he certainly isn't mine. I told you I am not a member of
the Communist Party. What else would you like to know ?

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party
and are you under Communist Party discipline.? That is what I
would like to know.

Mr. Claiborne. When you say Communist Party discipline, that
is an interesting phrase. I don't know that it has been legally de-
fined. If you mean that the Communist Party can call me up and
say, "Claiborne, we want you to do so and so," then the answer is
certainly not.

Mr. Frazier. Mr. Chairman?

Mr, Moulder. Congressman Frazier ?

Mr. Frazier. I move that you direct the witness to answer the
question.

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the
question.

Mr. Claiborne. Mr. Chairman, I find it impossible to answer the
question further unless I can get a definition from the counsel as to
what Communist Party discipline is.

Mr. Frazier. May I ask you if you have been a member of the
Communist Party or have ever been a member of the Communist
Party ? You can answer that.

Mr. Claiborne. I said 3 or 4 times, I am not a member.

Mr. Frazier. I said, have you ever been a member ?

Mr. Claiborne. I have refused 3 or 4 times to answer that, and
I have given my grounds. The question has come up as to Commu-
nist Party discipline.

670 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

]\Ir. Moulder. Maybe 1 can clarify it by asking are you, in any
way, now under the direction or influence of tlie Communist Party?

Mr. Claiborne. Well, as far as influence goes, I am under any
number of influences. I read a great many publications. I listen
to a great many people ; and if I agree with them, you can say that I
am influenced by them.

If you mean do I agree with the Communist Party 100 percent,
no, I certainly do not. If you mean are they able to tell me what
to do and I feel that I must do it, simply because they say it ; if this
is what you mean by Communist Party discipline, certainly not. As
a matter of fact, I don't think there is anybody, except possibly my
wife, that is in that position.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any further questions ?

Mr. Arens. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moulder. Any question, Congressman Doyle ?

Mr. Doyle. I think, in view of the witness' claim of the first
amendment privilege and his statement that he has read a great deal,
I want to read from this brief of the American Bar Association in
the case of Watkins versus the United States of America.

Mr. Claiborne. How about the remarks of the California Bar
Association relative to the conduct of the counsel of this committee?

Mr. Doyle. That is right.

Mr. Claiborne. I will exercise my rights of free speech, sir.

Mr. Doyle. You are very smart. Let me read you the decision
of the United States Supreme Court and see if you are as smart as
the Court is.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Claiborne. I thought you said the brief of the American
Bar Association. Which is this ?

Mr. Doyle. I am reading from a brief quoting the United States
Supreme Court decision, as long as your counsel has called attention
to it when I mentioned the bar association brief.

Mr. Claiborne. I am sorry I interrupted you. I wanted to be
clear as to what you were quoting from.

Mr. Doyle. I am reading from page 6 in this brief in this case :

A most recent case, decided January 3, 1957, dealing with the similar issues
to those involved in the Watkins case, in Barenblatt v. United States, No. 13,327,
United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. The
opinion, written by Judge Bastian —

Counsel, will you please allow your witness to listen ? If you want
to consult with him, go ahead and do it, and then I will finish reading.

Mr. Claiborne. The opinion written by Judge Bastian.

Mr. Moulder. I see no point in arguing with the witness about a
Supreme Court decision.

Mr. Doyle. Are you through consulting now with your counsel
and counsel with the witness? If you are, I will proceed.

Mr. Claiborne. I am waiting for you to continue, sir.

Mr. Doyle. I think it is important to listen. If this was a court,
you would be in contempt of court.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 071

The opinion, written by Judge Bastian for a unanimous Court, convincingly
states the reasons for not unduly restricting the operations of Congressional
Committees. Also the Court after reviewing the history of the Committee on
Un-American Activities of the House of Representatives concluded that there
is abundant reason to sustain its inquiries into Communist infdtration.

The Court stated —

And this is a quotation from the decision of the United KStates
Supreme Court as listed here by the American Bar Association —

"Appellant next contends that the primary purpose of the subconuaittee's
inquiry was to 'expose' his beliefs and associatiims and that, therefore, the
subcommittee exceeded the bounds of its investigative power. There can be
no doubt that Congress has the power of inquiry and investi.uation when the
inquiry or investigation is upon a subject concerning which Congress may
legislate. The very resolution —

and I want to interpoLate here the resohition the Supreme Court
refers to is Public Law 601.

"The very resolution establishing the committee indicates that the subject under
inquiry was one concerning which Congi-ess could legislate. The fact that such
an inquiry or investigation may reveal or 'expose' some facts embarrassing to
someone is incidental and without effect upon the validity of the inquiry.

"Evidence was presented at the trial to show that the House Committee on
Un-American Activities had been engaged in a continuing investigation into
Communist methods of infiltration * * *."

The thing we are doing here, Mr. Chairman — and I want to call the
attention of the record to this point — is that we are continuing our
investigation as to the extent to which identified Communists in and
about Xew York have infiltrated the ^Metropolitan School of Music
or other music activities which we particularly inquire into. We are
not inquiring as to music. Individually, I consider music is the
universal language. But we are continuing our investigation into the
extent to which Communists who have been identified have infiltrated
much or little into the field of music as related particularly, today
and in the next few days, to the Metropolitan School of Musi*.

I want the record to sliow that Supreme Court decision.

Mr. Claiborne. Mr. Doyle, if I may comment on that

jNIr. INIouLDER. jNIay I say that the members of the committee may
wish to ask other questions. I think that what Congressman Doyle
lias stated for the record is a very valuable addition to the record,
but I see no point in addressing it to the witness for the purpose of
arguing about decisions of the court. You are before us to give us
facts and information you may have, and not to discuss the decision of
tlie Court or an^'tliing to do with the Court.

Mr. McIntosh. Mr. Claiborne, you have refused to answer a num-
ber of questions. Referring back to your original statement in answer
to the first question, that statement included the grounds of self-
incrimination, did it?

Mr. Claiborne. It included the fact tliat I could not expect to be
convicted, but I could not take the chance of being indicted because
it is too expensive.

Mr. McIntosii. Specifically, were you, in refusing to answei- these
(juestions, invoking the privilege extended to you under tlie fifth
amendment of the Constitution?

Mr. Claiborne. Yes ; I think so.

]\Ir. McIntosii. To all of these questions that you have refused to
answer, among all the other grounds, you are invoking the fifth amend-
ment, are you not?

672 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Claiborne. I prefer my own wording.

Mr. McIntosh. You are assigning as a reason the ground of self-
incrimination under the fifth amendment, are you not?

Mr. Claiborne. So long as it is clearly understood that I do not
concede myself to be guilty of any crime.

Mr. JNIcIntosh. I am not belaboring the question, but I want to find
out whether you are invoking the fifth amendment or are not.

Mr. Claiborne. Yes.

Mr. BouDiN. May I say that that was a quotation from the court of
appeals. I don't want Congressman Doyle to refer to it as a Supreme
Court decision.

Mr. Claiborne. Mr. Moulder, I did not want to refer to that at all.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any other questions of the witness? If not,
the witness is excused.

Call your next witness, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Sidney Finkelstein, kindly come forward.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you
are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Finkelstein. I do.

TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY FINKELSTEIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

MILDRED ROTH

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation,

Mr, Finkelstein. Sidney Finkelstein, 522 Stratford Road, Brook-
lyn ; occupation, author and writer,

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you bj^ the House Committee on Un-American Activ-
ities?

Mr. Finkelstein. I am.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Finkelstein. I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Miss Roth. Mildred Roth,'^401 Broadway, New York City.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Finkelstein, are you a member of the board of di-
rectors of the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. Finkelstein. I am a member; yes.

Mr. Arens. And how long have you occupied that post ?

Mr. Finkelstein. I believe my recollection is a little cloudy. I
believe it is about a year and a half. I think it started in the fall of
1955,

Mr. Arens. Do you also teach at the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. Finkelstein. No ; I don't.

Mr, Arens, Have you ever taught at the Metropolitan Music
School?

Mr, Finkelstein. Yes ; I have taught there.

Mr, Arens. You taught what subject?

Mr. Finkelstein. Music appreciation.

My. Arens, Over what period of time did you teach at the Metro-
politan Music School?

Mr, Finkelstein. There, again, my recollection is a little cloudy.
1 think it started in 1953.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 673

Mr. Arens. And when did it terminate ?

]\Ir. P"ixKf:LSTEix. It terminated in January of 1957, of this year.

Mr. Arens. "Where are you presently employed ?

Mr. Fixki:lsteix. I am self-employed. I am an author and writer
of books and so on, and I sell my writin<2:s or write books and collect
royalties.

"Mr. Akens. What is the nature of your writings ^ What type of
nuiterial do you compose ?

Mr. Fixkelsteix. They deal with the arts. Mostly about nmsic,
but a good deal about history of fine arts, literature, and so on.

Mr. Arexs. Where else have you taught besides at the Metropolitan
Music School ?

(Representative Moulder left the hearing room.)

Mr. Fixkelstein^. I decline to answer that question on tlie basis of
,),y — well, I decline for three reasons: One is that, ol)serving the pvn-
ce'edings up to now, I believe that these proceedings are an attempt to
smear "a school without the slightest interest in what that school is
teaching or doing. I think this is an un-American ])rocedure, espe-
cially as it refers to a school. I think it is an interference with the
search for truth, it intimidates the search of truth, which is essential
to the operation of a school. So, on principle, I would not want to
cooperate with such a procedure. My second reason is the fact that I
think that this committee's operations are an invasion of the right of
free speech guaranteed in' the first amendment to the Constitution,
where Congress is prohibited to legislate. My third reason is my
rights not to be a witness against myself as guaranteed by the fifth
amendment to the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. I am interested in that phrase you used about the search
for truth. I want to lay before you a couple of exhibits now and see if
you can help us in our search for truth. Here is a thermofax repro-
duction of a bulletin of the Jefferson School of Social Science, in
which we see "Marxism and Culture," one of the courses there being
taught by Sidney Finkelstein, and underneath the announcement of
the course the following :

The role of culture in the class struggle today. How the great art of the past
reflected and reacted upon society. How art today is related to the basic con-
flicts of our time. Socialist realism ms tlie cidtural expression of the working
class versus abstractionism, formalism, subjectivism, and other decadent expres-
sions of imperialism. A critical examination of the cultural scene in the
U. S. and the main tasks of the labor-progre.ssive movement.

Would you kindly look at this exhibit as it is laid before you, Mr.
Finkelstein, and tell us, first of all, whether you are truthfully and
accurately identified there as the instructor in culture and art for
the working classes.

(Document handed to witness.)

(Witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Are you accurately and truthfully described in that
exhibit that you have in your hand as an instructor at the Jeft'erson
School of Social Science, an instructor in art and culture?

Mr. Fixkelsteix". I decline to answer that question on the basis
of my rights under the fifth amendment not to be a witness against
myself.

(Document marked ''Finkelstein Exhibit No. 1,"" and retained in
connnittee files.)

674 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Ahkns. Now, I Avuiit to display to you, if you please, sir, a
thcrinofax reproduction of the Coniniunist Daily Worker of Jan-
uary IT), 1956, iJa^re T, in which an article appears by yourself, Sidney
Finkelstein. In the article you say, "the search for truth has become
a force helpino; shape world history,"' and you speak of science and
scholarship beino^ placed at the disposal of the working class in shaping
the future and the like. Kindly look at that article and tell this com-
mittee, while you are under oath, whether or not you are accurately
described there as the author of that article.

(Document handed to witness.)

(Witness conferred with his coiinsel.)

]\Ir. FiNKELsTEix. I decline to answer that question under the
grounds I have given b'?fore. 1 could add, since you have mentioned
"search for truth," I will be very glad to discuss all the problems
and questions raised here in the dee])est and most honest way under
circumstances which permit a threshing out of

Mr. Kearxey. Mr. Chairman, T think the witness should be directed
to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle (presiding). The witness is directed to answer the
question.

Mr. FiNKELSTEix. I decUue to answer that question on the basis
of my rights guaranteed by the fifth amendment to the Constitution.

(Document marked "Finkelstein Exhibit No. 2,'' and retained in
committee files.)

INIr. Arexs. In view of your dedication to the truth, would you
kindly tell us truthfully, are you now a member of the conspiratorial
apparatus known as tlie Communist Party?

Mr. FixKELSTETX. First, I would like to respectfully ask that it
would save a little confusion in my mind if the counsel would separate
fnctual names of things from adjectives which he applies to them.

All

Mr. Arexs. What adjective would you like to have disassociated
from the noun "party*' or ''Communist Party" ? What adjective in my
question would you like to have disassociated there?

Mr. FixKELSTEix. I would like to have anything mentioned by its
proper name; and if the counsel adds an adjective which is not part
of its name, I would like to have it so indicated.

Mr. Arexs. What |)art of this description of the Conmiunist Party
is it you take issue with ?

Mr. FixKELSTEix. I am not taking any issue with it at all. I do
know there is a ])arty called the Communist Party.

Mr. Arexs. How do you know that f

Mr. Ftnkeesteix. 1 have heard of it.

Mr. Arexs. Is that the sole source of your knowledge '(

Mr. FixKELSTEix. I decline to answer tliat question on the basis of
my rights under the fifth amendment of the Constitution.

Mr. Arexs. The fact is you are now the cultural spokesman for the
Communist conspiracy in the Ignited States, is it not; and if it isn't,
deny it while you are under oath.

Mr. FiNKELSTEix. I clou't kuow of any organization called Com-
munist conspiracy.

Mr. Arexs. MV. Chairnum, T respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordei-ed and directed to answer that question or, if he chooses, to
invoke his riehts under the fifth amendment.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 675

Miss Roth. May we have the question repeated ?

Mr. Arexs. Mr. IJeporter, will you please repeat the question?

Mr. Doyle. Read the question, Mr. Reporter.

(The reporter read from his notes as re<}uested.)

Mr. FixKELSTEix. 1 decline to answer that question under my
rights as guaranteed by the fifth amendment.

^Ir. Keakxev. If you were not the cultural spokesman for the
Connnunist Part}' in the I'nited States, would you so state?

Mr. Fixkelsteix. I would like to respectfully say, aud I think I
am

Mr. Kearx^ey. I would like to respectfully ask you to answer the
question.

]Mr. Fixkelsteix. I object to any inferences that might be
drawn

Mr. Kearxey. I asked you a very simple (juestion. Mr. Chairman,
I insist upon an answer.

Mr. Doyle. We are not dealing with inferences. We are asking
you about a question of fact. We are not asking you about an infer-
ence.

Mr. Fixkelsteix. Could I hear the question again ?

]Mr. Kearxey. It is a very simple question. I asked if you were
not the cultural representative of the Communist Party in the United
States, would you so state ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Fixkelsteix. I decline to answer that question for two rea-
sons : The first reason is that to answer any definitive statement such
as you asked would put me in the role of an informer, which I find
repugnant and which I think the great part of the American people
will find repugnant.

Mr. Kearxey. I want to say to the witness

Mr. Fixkelsteix". My second reason is my rights guaranteed under
the fifth amendment of the Constitution.

Mr. Kearx'ey. I want to say to the witness that, in the years I have
been on this committee, the statements tlnit you have just made have a
familiar ring. It is an old, old party answer.

]Mr. Doyle. May I ask a question. Ms'.y I ask the witness this ques-
tion : Are you a native-born American ?

Mr. Fix^KELSTEix. Yes, I am.
Mr. Doyle. What State?

Mr. Fixkelsteix. New York State.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you.

Mr. Arex^s. Now^ I display to you a photostatic reproduction of the
Daily Worker, October 14, 1040. in which a letter appears, to the edi-
tor, "Answering Attack on ]V[arxism Xew York City." I should

like to read at least excerpts from it :

Editor, Daily Worker : I wonder how many readers have realized the full
implications of the fact that a central part of the assault upon the 12 Com-
munist Party leaders is the attempt to abolish from men's knowledge the writings
of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and of the working-class leaders who have learned
from them.

It is, of course, as impossible to abolish these writings as it is to abolish the
history of humanity itself, which they describe so profoundly and of which they
are a part, or to abolish the very realities of life upon which these writings throw
so clear a light.

The point I want to make here is that one of the effective and important ways
in which the Worker readers and their friends can show their indignation at

676 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

the above-mentioned assaults, is to register this week at the Jefferson School of
Social Science, at Sixth Avenue and 16th Street, a school proudly dedicated to
the mastery and use of the above science. An overwhelming registration NOW
will show that the people know the worth of these profound teachings, their truth
and importance, and demand that the purveyors of ignorance take their hands
oflP.

There is not a walk of life or field of knowledge and culture upon which some
course in the Jefferson School does not throw a new light —

and so forth. Signed by Sidney Finkelstein.

Kindly look at that document, if you please, sir, while yon are nnder
oath, ancl expound to this committee first of all if you are accurately
described there as author of that letter and, secondly, tell us a little
bit about this profound truth that you are defending in the Marxist
terminology.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Finkelstein. With all respect, I am not trying to quibble, I
liear two questions.

Mr. Arens. We will take them one by one. I don't mean to confuse
you. First of all, kindly help this committee in undertaking to de-
velop facts to protect this great Nation against the conspiratorial
apparatus, and kindly tell us are you the author, the Sidney Finkel-
stein identified in the Communist Daily AVorker.

Mr. Finkelstein. I decline to answer that question under the
grounds guaranteed, or the rights guaranteed, by the fifth amendment
to the Constitution.

(Document marked "Finkelstein Exhibit No. 3," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the contributing editors to the
Communist publication Masses and Mainstream?

Mr. Finkelstein. I decline to answer that question for the same
reason.

Mr. Arens. And have you been one of the sponsors of the Civil
Eights Congress call to defeat the efforts of the FBI and the House
Committee on Un-American Activities and others to expose commu-
nism^ I invite your attention specifically to this language in an
exhibit I will show you in a moment:

The FBI has its paid informers everywhere, and almost any lodge, church,
political meeting or labor organizatit)n may be victimized by these peeping
toms.

Business enterprises, as well as private citizens and pul)lic officials are hailed
before the House Committee on Un-American Activities and found guilty by asso-
ciation, or alleged association —

and the like.

Kindly look at this document as it is displayed to you and tell
us whether or not you are accurately identified in your status there
as one of the leaders of that enterprise.

(Document handed to witness.)

Mr. Arens. Couldn't you help us on that, please, Mr. Finkelstein?

Mr. Finkelstein. I am trying to see my

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Finkelstein. I see a name like mine on that list as a sponsor.
I don't see this as sponsored by the Civil Rights Congress. It is a
Call to a Bill of Rights Conference. I am a little cloudy about all
of the details of this, but I believe I am the person who sponsored
this, who was one of the long list of sponsors. From glancing over

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 677

this entire docuiiieiit — which ^roes much beyond, 1 may say, the rather
one-sided excerpt you read — I am in agreement witli what seems to
be its main purpose.

(Document marked "P^inkelstein Exhi})it No. 4," and i-etained in
connnittee files, )

Mr. Arens. Your public service has extended beyond the shores
of this Xation, has it not ^ I have here a photostatic re])roducti()n of
a document quoting from the Connnunist Daily Worker of April 7,
1948 (p. 18), in which a numher of people, including Sidney Finkel-
stein, protest the jailing of a world-famous poet who hap})ens to be
one of the leading Connnunists in Chile. Look at that document
and see if you can help us. Tell us first of all whether or not you lent
your name to that.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. FixKELSTEix. Sir, on this I have no independent recollection
of this particular document, but I do know of Pablo Neruda as a
very great poet.

(Document marked "Finkelstein Exhibit Xo. o," and retained in
committee fiiles.)

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he is a Connnunist ^

Mr. FiNKELSTEix. That is a question. I don't know iiis i)olitics.
He is a very great poet.

Mr. Kearney. Do you call the Connnunist Party a i)olitical party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. P^inkelstein. Congressman, if you are asking my opinion, in
my opinion the Conmumist Party is a political party which has
o})erated as such.

Mr. Kearney. You have not read, evidently, some of the writings
of Mr. Foster, the head of the Connnunist Party in this country,
have you ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Miss KoTii. Is that a question, sir, to the witness (

Mr. Kearney. 1 said evidently the witness has not read some of the
writings of Mr. Foster, the head of the Connnunist Party in this
country.

Mr. Finkelstein. I am a little confused, sir. Do you want me to
answer that ?

Mr. Kearney. That is what I asked you.

Miss Roth. Is that a question of the witness, sir ?

Mr. Finkelstein. He said it is.

Miss RoTii. Are you asking the witness whether he did read them?
I don't understand the Congressman's statement.

Mr. Kearney. That is what I am asking him.

Miss Roth. All right.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Finkelstein. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. Kearney. I ex])ected that answer.

Mr. Finkelstein. And under the grounds of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman. I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Kearney. There is one question 1 would like to ask. I have
listened to this witness and several others here this afternoon, espe-
cially this one, in his desire of search for the truth, and his participa-

678 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

tion in many niovomonts over the past few yeiu-s. I wonld like to ask
the witness this qnestion: Have you protested pul)licly tlie massacre
of the Hunoivrian i)eople in tlie past few months?

(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. FiNKELSTEiN. With all respect, Congressman

Mr. Kearney. Just ]dease answer the question.

Mr. FiNKEi.s'raiN. lender the circumstances — I give my honest
opinion on every country under the sun, such as I have. TTnder the
circumstances of this hearing, I decline to answer that question on the
grounds I have given before for declining to answer questions.

Mr. Kearney. I would suggest that you continue your search for
the truth, but along the right direction.

Mr. FiNKELSTEiN. I ahvays have, and as a writer my writings would
be worthless unless that was its main objective.

Mr. Kearney. That is all, Mr. (^hairnum.

Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions.

Mr. Frazier. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. I have a question: IIow in the world could whether
or not you ]>rotested the slaughter of the Hungarians by the Soviet
Communist Party agents in Hungary, incriminate you in the United
States ?

Mr. Finkelstejn. Well, it opens np a door to my being questioned
on my feelings and actions in regard to several other countries and
the opinions of various groups about these countries and actions. So
it is under that ground that I gave the answer I did.

]Mr. Doyle. I understand, yes. Well, I gave you an open door to
show without going into iuiything else whether or not you had the
gu s and the patriotism to ])r()test the murder of those Hungarians
and you do not take it. I understand your attitude. Here is your
attitude. I read here in this exhibit, and you said that is the way
you felt today, the attack you make on the FBI in 1949. A few
minutes ago you said you felt the same today :

The F-<I has its paid informers everywhere, and almost any lodge, churt'h,
political meeting, or labor organization nuiy l)e victimized by these peeping toms.

That is the way you feel. Where in God's name would our Nation
be if the FBI wasn't able to get patriotic American citizens to go into
these organizations in which Connnies, crooks, cheats, and traitors
infiltrate ? Would you tell me where our Nation would land if we did
not have the FBI? And with subversives, some of wdiich you know
something about, I assinne from your testimony.

Mr. FiNKELSTEiN. The Nation might be reduced to the terrible pro-
cedure of having to jail people for crimes, only if it found that they
actually committed them or found that they did something criminal,
not just thinking.

Mr. Doyle. Keep on talking and give me some more of your philos-
ophy, please. I am trying to open up another door to you, so that
you can show how you feel about this country and about its internal
security. That is one reason I am asking this question. Go ahead
giving us your philosophy, attacking the FBI and our internal-secu-
rity agents. Go ahead. 1 understand how you feel. If it wasn't for
the FBI, it wouldn't take the subversives in the Communist Party
and other subversives and traitors long to take over the internal secu-
rity of our Nation, and you know it. That is one reason you holler

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 079

against them. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for attacking
theFlU.

Mr. FiNKELSTEiN. Congressman, you are selecting one little sen-
tence.

Mr. Doyle. That is all riglit. You signed it.

Mr. FiNKELSTEix. It is from a statement which

jMr. Doyle. You signed it. Now, I have one thing more. Counsel
asked you about the Jefferson School of Social Science, right here in
New York. You didn't take time to bring out the rating of this
Jefferson School of Social Science to which you pleaded your con-
stitutional privilege. Here is what the Guide to Subversive Organi-
zations and Publications, publislied as of January 2, 1957, has to say
about it, about this school. I read on page 49 :

1. Cited as an "adjunct to the Communist Party." * * *

2. "At the beginning of the present year, the old Communist Party Workers
School and the School for Democracy were merged into the Jefferson School of
Social Science." * * *

3. "Schools under patriotic and benevolent titles indoctrinate Communists
and outsidei'S in the theory and practice of comiiiunism, train organizers and
oi'cratives, recruit new party members and synipath zers. * * *. S( hools of
this type have been * * * Jefferson School of Social Science, New York. * * *"
Internal Security Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary Committee. * * *

That is one reason that the FBI has to pay informers to get in
behind these dark doors where subversives train people to advocate
changing our form of government to a totalitarian form of govern-
ment, as is in effect in Soviet Russia. You ought to be ashamed of
yourself.

INIr. Moulder. Are tliere any additional questions?

Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I cannot si)eak too strongly against these
American-born citizens who get the blessings of our representative
form of government and get prosperity here by traiiiing in our schools
arid colleges, and receive the opportunities we have, and then come out
and condenm the Fl^, tlie one great agency that is best able to protect
our internal security against subversives ar.d trait'trs, crooks, thieves,
and bank robbers.

Mr. Kearney. I tliink. Mr. Chairman, if the gentlemiin from Cali-
foi-nia will yield, let's not have ihe FBI take all the credit. I think
the witness criticized this connnittee, too.

Mr. MoT'LDER. Are there any additional questions?

Mr. Doyle. 1 wish we could get further after men who do this sort
of thing subversively.

Mr. AIoulder. The witness is excused.

I Avish to make this explanation: When 1 was referring to the
decision which was read by our distinguished colleague from Cali-
fornia, 1 was really explaining to the witness that it was not being
projxjunded in the nature of a question but as an exjdanation which
(lid not recjuire an answer frcjui hiuL I think it was a valuable con-
tril)ution as far as law is concerned. It was given in explanation of a
comment, and it was not a question. It was not necessary to go into
an argument with a member of the committee concerning a decision
of the court.

The subconunittee will now stand in ivcess for a period of .^ minutes.

680 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

(Members of tlie committee present at taking; of recess: Representa-
tives Monlder, Kearney, Mclntosli, Frazier, and Doyle.)

(Brief recess.)

Mr. MoFLOKR. The subcommittee will be in order,

(^Members of the committee present: Eepresentatives Moulder,
Doyle, Kearney, and. Mcintosh.)

Mr. Moulder. Call your next witness.

Mr. Arexs. The next witness will be Mr. Henry Zlotnick, Mr. Chair-
man, (^ome forward, Mr. Zlotnick. Remain standing while the chair-
man administers an oath to you.

Mr. MouLUER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to oive this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothini>- but the truth, so help you (jod^

Mr. Zlotnick. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HENRY ZLOTNICK (ZLOTNIK). ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, HARRY SACHER

]Mr. Arkxs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Zi>()TXi('K. My name is Henry Zlotnick. My residence is 9;^2
Carroll Street, Brooklyn. I am a musician and a flute teacher.

Mr. Arexs. You are appeariufr today in response to a subpena which
was served ui)on you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?

Mr. Zlotnick. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arexs. You are accompanied by counsel ?

Mr. Zlotnick. Yes.

jMr. xVrens. Counsel, please identify yourself.

^fr. Saciier. I am Harry Sacher, 842 Madison Avenue, New York,
X. Y.

Mr. Arexs. Where are you employed?

Mr, Zlotnick. Mostly self-employed, and I also teach for schools.

Mr. Arens. For what schools ?

Mr. Zlotnick. For the Metropolitan Music School and the Neigh-
borhood Music School.

Mr. Arexs. How long have you taught at the Metropolitan Music
School ?

]Mr. Zlotxick. 1 don't know exactly, but it is probably in the
neighborhood of about 1'2 years.

Mr, Arens, How long have you taught at the Neighborhood Music
School ?

Mr. Zlotnick, About 18 years,

Mr, Arens, What did you teach ?

Mr. Zlotnick. Flute.

Mr. Arens. What?

]Mr. Zlotnick. Flute.

Mr. Arexs. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Zlotnick. I refuse to answer this question on the basis of the
hfth amendment because I do not wish to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. Are you under Connnunist Party discipline?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 681

Mr, Zlotnick. I refuse to answer on the basis of the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that concludes
the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions?

Mr. Doyle. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Kearney ?

Mr. Kearney. No questions.

Mr. McIntosh. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Arens. Mr. "Walter Raim, will you kindly come forward?

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth ?

Mv. Raim. I do.

TESTIMONY OF WALTER RAIM (WALTER YUDOMIN), ACCOM-
PANIED BY COUNSEL, HARRY SACHER

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself, please.

Mr. Raim. Walter Raim, t2130 Mulner avenue, student and music
teacher.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?

Mr. Raim. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Raim. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, identify yourself, please.

Mr. Sacher. My name is Harry Sacher, 342 Madison Avenue,
New York, N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Mr, Raim ?

Mr. Raim, I teach at the Metropolitan Music School,

Mr. Arens. Plow long have you taught there ?

Mr. Raim. Since September 1956.

Mr. Arens. What do you teach ?

Mr. Raim. Guitar ancl banjo.

Mr. Arens. Do you teach any place else ?

Mr. Raim. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Where else do you teach ?

Mr. Raim. Neighborhood Music School.

Mr. Arens. How long have you tauglit at the Neighborhood Music
School?

Mr. Raim. For 2 years.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever used any name other than the name of
Walter Raim, pursuant to which you were subpenaed here?

Mr. Raim. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. What other name?

Mr. Raim. Yudomin.

Mr. Arens. Y-u-d-o-m-i-n?

Mr. Raim. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Have you had your name legally changed to Raim?

Mr. Raim. Yes, sir; as of this date.

Mr. Arens. Where and when were vou born ?

Mr. Raim. In the Bronx, 193.5.

91198— 57— pt. 1 6

6S2 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Akens. Are 3^011 now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party?

Mr. Ratm. I respectfully decline to answer that question sir, on
grounds granted me by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arexs. Ml". Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staif interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Have you any questions, ]Mr. Doyle?

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairnum,! have no questions but may I say this:
Young man, I draw no inferences. But if you are, or if you were
a member of the Communist outfit, get out of that garbage and
build toward your Nation's strength instead of weakness. Some
boys a little bit older than you gave their lives that you might have a
crack at continuing to live and raise your family in a strong, con-
stitutional, representative form of government. Take advantage of
it and build, instead of weakening.

Mv. Moulder. Are there any other questions?

Mr. Kearxey. No questions.

Mr. McIntosh. No questions.

Mr. Arens. The next witness will be Mr. Max Pollikoff, P-o-l-l-i-
k-o-f-f.

Mr. Moulder. Will you be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the
testimony which you are about to give before this subcommittee will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?

Mr. Pollikoff. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MAX POLLIKOFF, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

EPHRAIM LONDON

Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation,

Mr. Pollikoff. My name is Max Pollikoff. I live at 25 West 68th
Street. I am a violinist.

Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. Pollikoff. Yes.

Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Pollikoff. Yes.

Mr. Arex^s. Will counsel kindly identify himself?

Mr. DoxDox. I am Ephraim Ijoiulon, 150 Broadway.

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Pollikoff', are you a sponsor of the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Mr. Pollikoff. Yes.

Mr. Arexs. How lono; have you been a sponsor of the IVIetropolitan
Music School?

Mr. Pollikoff. I wouldn't exactly know the date I gave my name.

Mr. Arexs. What is your best recollection, or your best judgment,
yoiu' best approximation?

Mr. Pollikoff. It would have been about G or 7 years ago.

Mr. Arexs. Have you continuously been a sponsor since then ?

Mr. Pollikoff. Yes, my name has been on, yes.

Mr. Arexs. Are you now, or have you e^er been, a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Pollikoff. I am not a member of the Comuiunist Party.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 683

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have }oii ever been, a member of the
Commmiist Party ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. Well, excuse me.

(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.)

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. There seems to be two questions there.

Mr. Arens. Let's tr}^ question No. 2. Have 3'OU ever been a member
of the Communist Party ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I decline to answer that on tlie "rounds of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arexs. AVere you a member of the Conununist Party 1 year
ao-o ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. Well, I would say I w^ould answer everything

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

INIr. PoixiKoFF. May I have that (juestion again ?

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist T^arty a year ago 'i

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. The answer is "A'o."

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party 5 years
ago ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I decline to answer that.

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Comnnmist Party 4 years
ago?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I would decline to answer that.

i\Ir. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party 3 years
ago?

]\Ir. PoLLiKOFF. I would decline to answer that.

Mr. Arex's. Were you a member of the Communist Party 2 years
ago ^

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I would decline to answer that.

Mr. Arexs. Did you resign technical membership in the Communist
Party for the purpose of being able to testify, or appear and swear,
that you were not technically a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I decline to answer that.

Mr. Arexs. Are you under Conununist Party discipline ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. Definitely not.

Mr. Arexs. Were you undei- Communist Party discipline at any
time during the course of the last year ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. Definitely not.

Mr. Arexs. Were you under Communist Party discipline at any
time in the last 2 years ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I decline to answer that.

Mr. Arexs. Now, I would like to display to you, if you please, sir,
an article ap})earing in the Comnumist Worker as far back as lO-io
(July 4, p. 7), in which a number of people join in a statement,
according to the headline, scoring "anti-Soviet propaganda," including
one Max Pollikofi", concert and radio violinist. Please look at that
document and tell this conmiittee whether or not you have a recollec-
tion of joining in that enterprise.

( Document handed to witness.)

(Witness conferred witli his counsel.)

Mr. PtJLLiKoFF. I will decline to answer this.

Mr. Arexs. Why?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. On the groimds it may incriminate me.

684 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

(Document marked "Pollikoil' Exhibit No. 1," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Where are yon employed, in addition to the connection
that you have there with the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. You didn't ask me whether I was connected with
the music school ; you asked me if I was a sponsor.

Mr. Arens. Where are you em])loyed ?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I don't teach. Is that what you mean, besides

Mr. Arens. I understand. You are a sponsor of the Metropolitan
Music School. Where are you employed?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I am a free-lance violinist.

Mr. Arens. Where are you ]:)resently workin<j?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. I work for everybody. In other words, everybody
that calls. Concerts or radio.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently engaged in your vocation as a
violinist?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Where are you pi-esently playing the violin?

^J". PoLLiKOFF. Today I wouldn't be playing anywhere; or to-
morrow I would be playing, say, for a radio station or a studio.

Mr. Arens. Do you have a contract with NBC or CBS or Symphony
of the Air?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. Not at all.

Mr. Arens. What w^as the last time you were on radio?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. Well, the last time was, I guess, Monday night.

Mr. Arens. Where did you play Monday night?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. That was the Telephone Hour.

Mr. Arens. Where did you play on the Telephone Hour?

Mr. PoLLTKOFF. Just as one of the violinists of the orchestra.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever signed a statement, under oath, for
prospective employers respecting the subject of any membership by
yourself in the Communist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. POLLIKOFF. No.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been interrogated on that subject?

Mr. PoLLIKOFF. No.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this w^itness.

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Doyle, have you any questions?

Mr. Doyle. I noticed, Witness, when counsel asked you if you were
under Communist Party discipline at any time within the last year,
your reply was, "Definitely not.'' Do you remember so answering?

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. Yes.

Mr. Doyle. While I know that a legal point is we are not sup])09ed
to draw any inferences from your use of the constitutional privilege,
I w^ant to say to you that I compliment you on the fact that, apparently,
you haven't been a member of the C^onmiunist Party at any time dur-
ing the last year. Whether or not you were before that, I don't know ;
but at any rate, you are not now, and you haven't been within the last
year. That is true, isn't it.

Mr. PoLLiKOFF. That is what I say.

Mr. Doyle. I want to congratulate you on getting out of it, or of
not being in it, to be fairer to you.

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Kearney, do you have a question?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 685

Mr. Kearney. No.

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Mcintosh?

Mr. McIntosii. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Moulder. That is alL

Mr. Arens. The next witness will be Manrine Holbert.

Kindly come forward.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solenndy swear that the testimony which you
are about to give before this counnittee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Holbert. I do.

TESTIMONY OF MAURINE HOLBERT (MAURINE HOLBERT KEN-
NEDY), ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, ISIDORE NEEDLEMAN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.

Miss Holbert. Maurine Holbert, 51 West 11th Street, actress,
teacher.

Mr. xVrens. You are appeai-ing today, ma'am, in response to ^ab-
j)ena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?

Miss Holbert. That is true.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Miss Holbert. That is true.

Mr. Needleman. Isidore Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York 6.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Miss Holbert. I am an actress, which means free-lancing, of course ;
and I also teach at the ]\Ietropolitan Music School.

Mr. Arens. What course do you teach there ?

Miss Holbert. I teach creative dramatics for children.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been teaching there '(

Miss Holbert. I would say 2 years.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party?

Miss Holbert, I decline to answer this question under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?

Miss Holbert. I decline to answer this question on the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arens. Where have you recently appeared in the course of
your dranu\tic performances^ 1 understood you to say, in addition
to being an instructor at the Metropolitan Music School, you are an
actress.

Miss Holbert. I played in an otf-Broadway theater.

Mr. Arens. What was the name of the presentation ?

Miss Holbert. I refuse to answer that under the fifth amendment
because I loathe this conmiittee. Their main purpose is to blacklist
people, to destroy their livelihood, and to destroy and hurt every
institution whose name is mentioned in this court.

Mr. Kearney. That is a pretty speech, but it is not true.

Miss Holbert. Thank you.

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer the last outstanding question.

Miss Holbert. I refuse to answer it on the fifth amendment.

686 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Moi'LDER. Have the record sliow that prior to that statement
she Avas ordered and directed to answer.

Mr. Akkns. Have you appeared in T!\e Doll Housed

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss HoLBERT. Yes; I phiyed in The Doll House.

Mr. Arens. When did you play in that presentation ?

Miss HoLBERT. Last spring.

Mr. Arexs. Have you phiyed in The ]\Iale Animal?

Mill Holbert. I li^ve.

Mr. Arexs. Kindly' tell us where you played in Tlie Male Animal?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

INIiss Holbert. In summer stock.

]Mr. Arexs. Where, jna'am?

Miss Hoebert. In Nlintucket.

Mr. Arens. And did you play in Joan of Lorraine ?

Miss Holbert. That is right, Joan of Lorraine.

Mr. Arexs. Where did you play that ?

ISIiss Holbert. In stock.

Mr. Mott.der. What do you mean by that?

ISIiss Holbert. In summer stock, a sunmier theater in Connecticut-
Mr. Arexs. Can you tell us what is AFTKA ?

Miss Holbert. Yes. AFTR A is the union that represents the radio
and television performers.

(Representative Frazier entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Arexs. Have you been active, or identified, in tlie Harlem
Unity Theatre?

Miss Holbert. I decline to answer this (piestion on the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arexs. I lay befor you, if you please, a thermofax reproduc-
tion of the Communist Daily Worker of New York, Friday, Septem-
ber 2, 1010, with reference to certain productions and activities by
the Harlem Unity Theatre, in which your name appears as a director
of certain of the presentations for the Harlem Unity Theatre. Kindly
look at that document and if you wall be good enough to, while you
are under oath, verify the authenticity of that information.

(Document handed to wntness.)

(Witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Holbert. It is highly possible. I don't remember it, but it is
highly possible.

(Document marked "Holbert Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arexs. Do you know^ a person by the name of Paul Robeson ?

Miss Holbert. This is obviously a question to trick me. May I
consult my counsel?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss II< I.BERT. Do you mean the great singer, Paul Robeson?

Mr. Ari:xs. Yes, ma'am.

Miss Holbert. Naturally.

Mr. Ari.ns. Have you worked with him in the Harlem Unity
Theatre?

(The witness conferred wdth her counsel.)

Miss Holbert. No; I didn't work w'ith him. I have never worked
wnth him. I have never had the pleasure of working with him.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 687

Mr. AiJENS. Do yoii know liiiu in any ca[)ticity, other than the ca-
pacity as a great singer ?

Miss PloLBEiiT. I only know hiin as a very great singer.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever served in a Communist Party meeting
witli him?

Miss HoLBEUT. I decline to answer on the iifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. What are the ages of the students that you instruct at
the Metropolitan Music School?

Miss IIoLP.ERT. P^rom G to 16, I would say.

Mr. Arens. And about how many students do you instruct there?

Miss HoLBERT. I would say 25, roughly.

Mr. Arens. Is that 25 per week or 25 a month or day ?

Miss HoLBERT. I teach them once a week,

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taught at tlie Jefferson Scliool of Social
Science ?

Miss IIoi.BERT. 1 decline to answer on the fifth amendment.

Mr. Kearney. Is that the Comnumist-controlled school in the city
of New York?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. It has been cited.

Have you ever used any name other than the name pursuant to
which you are appearing today, Maurine Holbert?

Miss Holbert. I have not.

Mr. Arens. Is that a married name or a maiden name ?

Miss Holbert. That is the name that my mother gave me.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever had any other name ?

Miss Holbert. I was married once.

JSIr. Arens. What was your married name ?

Miss Holbert. Kennedy.

Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?

Miss Holbert. I was born and brought up in Texas, and I might
add that I have never been out of the country. So whatever I am,
whatever I believe, America has made me.

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a brief thumbnail sketch of your
education.

Miss Holbert. I was born on a farm in Texas. My father was a
country school teacher. I went to a small Texas country school until
I finished grammar school. Then I rode horseback 12 miles to go to
high school in a small town.

Mr. Moulder. Where was this ?

Miss HoLiiERT. In Mount Vernon, Tex. From there I went to East
Texas State Teachers College and then took graduate work at Southern
Methodist University. I went to Southwestern School of the Theater.

Mr. Arens. Plow long have you been engaged as a professional
actress ? Ever since you completed your formal education ?

INIiss Holbert. Yes.

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education?

Miss Holbert. Oh, dear

Mr. Arens. Your best recollection.

(The witness conferred w^ith her counsel.)

Miss Holbert. My formal education ? It was a very embarrassing
question, you know. It is very unfair to ask an actress that. I would
say roughly 15 years.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that would con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.

688 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Congressman Doyle ?

Mr. Doyle. Only this: I want to congratulate the witness on her
professional achievements and hope the time will come, before very
long, when she can fairly say that she is not now a member of the
Communist Party and does not feel obligated to plead the constitu-
tional privilege. By that I mean I am not drawing any inferences,
but I think the time has come when every patriotic American citizen
ought to be so far removed from Communist Party membership or
any subversive activity that they can honestly say that they are not
now a member.

Miss HoLBERT. You see, Mr. Doyle, I disagree with this. I feel
that it is tremendously important that people understand and use the
fifth amendment. I feel that my ancestors fought very long and hard
to give me that privilege.

Mr. Doyle. I don't criticize

Miss HoLBERT. All right. I would just like to make this point. It
exists to protect me from such connnittees as I have seen the way
that you liave functioned today.

Mr. Doyle. I don't criticize

Miss HoLBERT. I use it for that, and I know and you know that it
does not imply guilt, but it can be used by the innocent, too.

Mr, DoYLE. I don't criticize you for using it when you feel obli-
gated to conscientiously use it and do it in good faith. But I do say
again, in all respect, tliat I hope tlie time will come soon when tliere
will be nothing in your exj)erience as of that date wliich will make it
necessary for you to plead the fifth amendment.

Miss HoLBERT. But I tell you, Mr. Doyle, as long as there is a black-
list in my profession, which is brought about by such investigations
as this, I assure you that I will use the fifth amendment, not only
to protect myself, but my profession as well. I feel that in any mo-
ment in history when there is not freedom of expression for an artist,
that 3'ou are stopping tlie most potent voice of the people; and I feel
that such a committee intimidates people and does this.

Mr. Doyle. There is freedom of expression for every person in
America, but they have to do it in accordance with hnv.

Miss HoLBERT. That is right, with a certain opinion that is laid
down. I don't believe spreading ideas is dangerous. I believe the
suppression of ideas is dangerous.

Mr. Doyle. It certainly is. But not the suppression of the Com-
munist idea

Miss HoLBERT. The suppression of any idea, in my opinion, is dan-
gerous and is against the spirit and against the very principles that
your ancestors and my ancestors fouglit to achieve in this country;
and I assure you that I am not going to betray them.

Mr. Doyle. The Communist idea in this country would destroy
the FBI, according to a previous exhibit in this hearing.

Miss HoLBERT. I have faith in the American people that they will
not be destroyed by any ideology that does not meet their needs. I
have faith in the American people because I am one of them.

Mr. Doyle. Well, T have the same faith.

Miss HoLBERT. I don't think you have the same faith, or you
wouldn't be holdino; hearings like this.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 689

Mr. Doyle. I am going after subversive communism or any other
form of subversion wherever it exists, whether it is in the musical
area or any place else.

Miss HoLBERT. HoAv clo you play Bach or Beethoven subversively ?
I would like to know.

Mr. Doyle. I would like to know.

Miss Holbert. Even the stool pigeon admitted that no politics was
taught in Metropolitan School, and yet you go on persecuting the
]\Ietropolitan School. As far as I know, it has contributed only good
to culture in this country.

(Representative Kearney left the hearing room.)

]VIr. Doyle. Anybody who helps the FBI uncover cheats, crooks, or
traitors is a stool pigeon in the language of Communists.

Miss Holbert. In Texas, it is one stage lower than a cattle rustler.

Mr. Doyle, That is right. I understand why some of you people
call the FBI stool pigeons. We are perfectly familiar with the FBI
being called a bunch of stool pigeons by subversives and identified
Communists.

Miss Holbert. Here you are presuming that because one says stool
pigeon — stool pigeon is a stool pigeon in any language. It is a pretty
universal language and there is a pretty universal feeling about it.

Mr. Doyle. In my book, a patriotic citizen who hel})s the internal
security of his nation by working with the FBI and tilling the truth
is not a stool pigeon, but rendering a community service. The trouble
is that the Communists and those associated with them, like some of
the people in this room, call them stool pigeons.

Miss Holbert. Why is this man paid to do it, if tliis is a patrotic
duty?

Mr. Doyle. That is the familiar language.

Miss Holbert. You cost me time and money and precious energy to
come down here and defend me against you and then give me $9 a day
for my expenses. I don't understand this kind of behavior.

Mr. Doyle. I will renew my invitation. I hope that tlie time will
come before long when you will think enough of the internal security
of your Xation not to call the FBI stool pigeons.

5lr. ]\IouLDER. Are there any other questions?

Mr. McIntosh. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. Are you complaining about the witness fee of $9?
If we paid you more money, would you testify?

Miss Holbert. I certainly would not. It is just mighty puny retri-
bution for all the pain and expense and losing of time that you in-
flict upon us to come here and defend ourselves against you. I think
it is horrible.

(Representative Kearney returned to the hearing room.)

Mr. Xeedleman. I thought there were no more questions and I got
up. I am sorry.

Mr. jMoulder. You are excused, and you may receive your $9.

Call the next witness.

INIr. Arens. John F. Mehegan. Come forward, please.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear tliat the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. Meiiegan. I do.

690 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN F. MEHEGAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
CHAELES E. GOLDBERG

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by n;inie, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Meiiegan. John Mehegan, 925 West End Avenue, New York
City, piano teacher.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Conmiittee on Un-American Activ-
ities?

Mr. Mehegan. That is true.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Mehegan. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, please identify yourself.

Mr. Goldberg. Charles F. Goldberg, 230 Park Avenue, New York
City.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Mr. JVIehegan ?

Mr. JVIehegan. INIetropolitan Music School.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. Mehegan. I am head of the jazz department.

Mr. ApiEns. For how long have you been employed at the INIetro-
politan Music School ?

Mr. Mehegan. Twelve years.

Mr. Arens. How many students do you have?

Mr. INIehegan. Per week ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Mehegan. It fluctuates, but it is about 8 to 9.

Mr. Arens. What are the age groups ?

Mr. Mehegan. Roughly from 15 to 20.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. Mehegan. I am not a member of tlie Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Please answer tlie question.

Mr. Mehegan. As to the past, I decline to answer on tlie basis of
my rights under the first amendment and my privilege under the
fifth.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any
time since you were served w^ith your subpena to appear before the
Committee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. Mehegan. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Pai'ty at any
time in the course of the year 1957, the current year?

Mr. Mehegan. I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Connnunist Party at any
time during January of 1957 ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, INIehegan. I will repeat, I am not now a member of the C^om-
munist Party. As to the past, I decline to answer on the previous
grounds stated.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of tlie Communist l*arty 1 month
ago?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Mehegan. I decline to answer.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC, 691

Mr. Arens. Were you a ineinber of the Coiniuunist Party 2 weeks

^^go- . . .

Mr. Meiiegan. I decline to answer. Well, no, wait a minute.

That may be in contradiction to the answer to your previous (question

about since the summons or tlie subpena was issued.

Mr. Arens. Then let's get the fact. Were you a member of tiie
Communist Party 1 month ago?

Mr. Meiiegan. I was not a member of the Communist Party 2
weeks ago. I don't know the date of the subpena.

Mr. Goldberg. You were not a member of the (V)miininist Part}'
when you last testified at the executive session, wliich was Febru-
arys?'

Mr. IVIehegan. I was not a member of the C^ommunist Party on
February 8.

Mr. Arens. You were not a member of the Coiniimnist Party on
February 8, 1957, is that correct?

Mr. ]\Iehegan. That is correct.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party on Feb-
ruary?, 1957?

Mr. ]\Iehegan. I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. February 7, 1957, was 1 day prior to the time that you
appeared before this committee in executive session, is that correct?

Mr. Meiiegan. That is true.

Mr. Arens. Did you resign technical membership in the Commu-
nist Party the very day before you were to appear before this com-
mittee in executive session, so that you could face the world and
then say while you were under oath that you were not then a member
of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Mehegan. I decline to answer on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?

Mr. IVIehegan. I am not.

Mr. Arens. Have you been under Communist Party discipline at
any time since you were served with a subpena to appear before this
committee?

INIr. ^Meiiegan. I have not been.

Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party disci])line at any
time within a week prior to the time you were served with your sub-
})ena to appear before this committee?

Mr. Mehegan. I decline to ans^ver.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Do you have any questions, Mr. Doyle ^

Mr. Doyle. No, but I want to compliment the young man for get-
ting out of the Connnunist Party, whenever he did.

I want to urge you to put the long life ahead of you to more vig-
orous, patriotic eli'orts to try to make up for Avhatever luippened pre-
viously. I am not assuming or inferring anything, but your country
needs you.

Mr. Moulder. ]Mr. Frazier?

Mr. Frazier. I have no questions.

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Kearney?

Mr. Kearney. No questions.

Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.

692 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. The next witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Mr. Harry
Smyles.

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you
are about to f^ive before the committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Smyles. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HAKRY M. SMYLES, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

MILDRED EOTH

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

Mr. Smyles. My name is Harry Smyles. I am a nnisician. I live
at 57 West 122d Street, New York City.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
Avhich was served upon you by the House Connnittee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities?

Mr. Smyles. That is right.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Smyles. I am. Counsel?

Mr. Arens. Will counsel please identify herself.

Miss EoTH. Mildred Roth, 401 Broadway, New York, N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Smyles, where are you employed ?

Mr, Smyles. I am employed at the Metropolitan Music School.
At present, I am on leave as I am playing a show.

Mr. Arens. What show are you playing?

Mr. Smyles. New Girl in Town.

Mr. Arens. Where is that ?

Mr. Smyles. In New Haven at present.

Mr. Arens. What do you play ?

Mr. Smyles. I play oboe and English horn.

Mr. Arens. Then you are employed presently, is that right?

Mr. Smyles. That is right.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been an instructor at the Metro-
politan Music School ?

Mr. Smyles. This is going on my fourth year.

Mr. Arens. What do you teach ?

Mr. Smyles. I teach recorder and oboe.

Mr. Arens. How many students do you have ?

Mr. Smyles. It is a matter of record at the school. I am not sure.
I have classes of varying sizes.

Mr. Arens. What is your best appraisal or judgment on the size?

Mr. Smyles. The average class is about four students.

Mr. Arens. What are the age groups ?

Mr. Smyles. x\ny where from 6 to about 10 years.

Mr. Arens. Did you, in the recent past, since the executive session
of this committee, have occasion to be on an NBC-TV nationwide
broadcast ?

Mr. Smyles. Yes, I appeared on NBC.

Mr. Arens. On what program did you appear on NBC ?

Mr. Smyles. On Today show.

Mr. Arens. Who sponsored that show or who was the MC ?

Mr. Smyles. It is the Dave Garroway show, but Dave Garroway
wasn't present when I appeared.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 693

Mr. Arexs. Who was present? Who was the leading light of that
particular production ?

Mr. Smyles. I have forgotten his name, frankly.

Mr. Arens. Were you interviewed then with respect to your then
prospective appearance before the House Un-American Activities
Committee ?

Mr. Smyles. To my great surprise, I was.

Mr. Arens. You appeared before this committee in executive ses-
sion in February, did you not?

Mr. Smyles. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Your TV appearance was after your appearance in
executive session ?

Mr. Smyles. That is right.

Mr. Arens. And that was in anticipation of youi- present appear-
ance, was it not?

Mr, Smyles. Anticipation?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Smyles. I don't know what you mean.

Mr. Arens. Did you have conversation in the interview, on the
nationwide interview, with respect to your appearance that is sched-
uled for now?

Mr. Smyles. It was a complete surprise to me tliat tliey asked me
the question.

Mv. Arens. Did they ask you wliether or not you would answer all
questions before this committee ?

Mr, Smyi.es. I was asked the question.

Mr, Arens, And what did you reply ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. I was asked if I would answer questions put to me by
the committee, and I said that I would.

Mr, Arens, You told tliem you would answer all questions before
this committee, did you not?

Mr. Smyles. May I qualify that?

Mr. Arens, Surely,

Mr. Smyles. I would like to add that I meant all proper questions,
all questions which I consider proper.

Mr. Arens. You didn't say that when you were interviewed on
nationwide television, did you?

Mr, Smyles. That wasn't the purpose of the television show.

Mr. Arens. Just ans-^er the question. You didn't say that, when
you were asked whether you were going to answer questions before this
committee, on this nationwide television program, did you ?

Mr, Smyles. I don't think the word "all" was used. I am not sure,
but I think I said I would answer questions put to me

Mr. Arens. I will read you an exact ti-anscript of your answers and
see if, while you are under oath, you will not confirm it.

Q. Do you have any plans riirlit now, that you think of your forthcoming
appearance heforo the House Un-American Activities Committee for resorting to
the first or fifth amendments if asked some provocative question?

A. Well, I think I'll be able to answer all the questions that the committee asks
me.

Is that a true and correct reproduction of the words used in the
course of that interview on the nationwide television show ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

694 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Smyles. I don't recall that that was the question, that the ques-
tion was put to me in exactly the words that you used.

Mr. Arens. Did you tell the interrogator in this nationwide show
that you were going to answer all questions before the House Commit-
tee on Un-American Activities?

Mr. Smtles. As I stated before, to the best of my knowledge, to the
best of my recollection, I said that I would answer questions put to me
by the committee.

Mr. Arens. Then answer this question : Are you now, or have you
ever been, a member of the Commmiist Party ?

Mr. Smyles. I decline to answer that question under my rights
under the fifth amendment of the Constitution not to be a witness
against myself.

Mr. Kearney. IMr. Counsel, may I remind counsel of the committee
that at the time the witness was on the air he was not under oath. He
is under oath today.

Mr. Arens. Did you say to the interrogator on the nationwide tele-
vision program that you had been subpenaed before this committee
but you did not understand why ; you had no idea why this committee
would want to talk to you ? Is that the essence of what you said to the
interrogator on the nationwide television program?

IMr. Smyles. I think during the first hour he said "Do you have any
idea why you were subpenaed," and I said that I didn't have any idea
because I didn't feel that playing music — I didn't see where playing
music could be subversi^^e in any way.

Mr. Arens. This interrogation was after you had been subpenaed
before this committee in executive session, was it not ?

Mr. Smyles. Yes.

Mr. Arens. And you did derive some little idea in the executive
session what this committee was intei-rogating you about, did you
not?

Mr. Smyles. Is this an interrogation ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. I am asking you that question.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. You are trying to get from me that I understood in
the executive session — coidd I have the (|uestion?

(The reporter read from his notes as rtMiuested.)

Mr. Smyles. Yes, I did. But I still don't see any connection be-
tween the questions that were asked me and my profession as a
musician.

Mr. Arens. In the executive session, you were interrogated as to
whether or not you were a member of tlie Communist Party, were
you not ?

Mr. Smyles. You asked me the same questions you just asked me.

Mr. Arens. And you knew that as of the time you were on the
nationwide television and interrogated on the Dave Garroway show,
isn't that correct ?

Mr. Smyles. I wasn't being interroanted. I was being interviewed.

Mr. Arens. You knew, as of the ti.me of that interview, that when
you were before this committee in executive session you were in-
terrogated with reference to whether or not you had ever been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party, isn't that correct ?
(The witness conferred with his couns(>l.)

Mr. Smyles. Yes, I knew that.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 695

Mr. Arens. And yet you told tlieiu you had no idea why you weiv
subpenaed before this committee, that you were just a musician _^

Mr. Smyles. Because I was on that particuhir show as a nnisic-ian.
I felt it was irrelevant to that particular appearance.

Mr. Arens. Did you have occasion to be interviewed by a repre-
sentative of Life magazine in the course of the last several weeks ?

Mr. Smyles. What do you mean, the last several weeks '.

Mr. Arens. Have you been interviewed by a representative ol" J^ile
magazine in the recent past '\

Mr. Smyles. Yes, I have.

Mr. Arens. Did you permit your ph(>t()iira})h (o be taken for an
article by Life magazine ?

Mr. Smyles. Photograplis were taken, yes.

Mr. Arens. And did you tell them of employment probh^ns tinit
you were having ?

Mr. Smyles. I did.

Mr. Arens. And did you tell tJiem in ell'ect that you liad been dis-
criminated against in employment because of ''accused h' ft wing ac-
tivity"?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. You asked me a couple of questions, 1 think, there.

Mr. Arens. I just asked you a question as to whether or not you
had been interviewed, and then I asked you whether or not you told
the interviewer of Life magazine that you had been discriminated
against in employment because you had been accused of leftwing
activity.

Mr Smyles. No, I didn't tell the Life magazine reporter that.

Mr. Arens. What did you tell him?

Mr. Smyles. Our discussion concerned discrimination generally in
the classical field against Negroes. That means symphony oi"chestras.

Mr. Arens. Did you read the article as it appeared in Life maga-
zine W'ith reference to yourself?

Mr. Smyles. Yes, I did.

Mr. Arens. Did you remonstrate with the Life magazine that you
were misquoted or that there was a misinterpretation of your own
status, when the Life magazine says that you were discriminated
against because of accused leftwing activity?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smithes. Would yon re])eat what you said about what the Life
magazine article said, please?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Reporter, please read the item back to hiuK T
think he understands it.

(The reporter read fi-om his notes as requested.)

(The witness conferred with iiis counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. I would have to see the article, because I don't
think

Mr. Arens. You have seen the article, have you not?

Mr. Smyles. I have seen it, but I have not looked at it in some
time. I don't think it said that.

Mr. Arens. I will read it to you.

Yet Smyles li;is never found ;i syi!ii)linny that would hire him.

I am breaking into the context of tlie article because it is so long.

He has strongly and vocally alt eked such exclusion and has, in (urn, heen
accused of leftwing activity. 'J'his is not what keeps hiui out —

696 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

and so forth.

Kindly look at this article with your photographs (Life magazine,
March 11, 1957) and tell this committee whether or not you informed
Life magazine writers that you had been accused of leftwing activity.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. I didn't say this to the Life magazine people.

Mr. Arens. They misquoted you or misinterpreted you, is that
right ?

Mr. Smyles. I didn't say that I had been kept out

Mr. Arens. "We have your answer on the record. We want to get on
here.

(Document marked "Smyles Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Miss Roth. May I consult with the witness?

]\Ir. Arens. Surely, you may consult with him all you care to.
Ma'am, within reason.

Miss KoTii. You had a question on the record.

Mr. Arens. You may consult with your client any time you wish
to, within reason.

Miss EoTii. I am right now, and I think I am being very reasonable
in time.

Mr. Arens. You go right ahead.

(The witness confeiTed with her counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. I never said that anything to do with leftwing activi-
ties kept me out,

Mr. Arens. Did you tell the Life correspondent that you had been
a member of the conspiratorial apparatus known as the Communist
Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. I will have to decline to answer that on the basis of
my rights under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. You didn't suggest to the Life correspondent that
your activities in the Communist conspiracy might have had some
bearing upon your employment difficulties, did you ?

Mr. Smyles. You are inferring

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. The article says "This is not what keeps him out."

Mr. Arens. Answer that question. You didn't tell the Life maga-
zine man whether or not you had been a member of the Communist
Party, did you ?

Mr. Smyles. No.

Mr. Arens. Sir?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. No.

Mr, Arens. Don't you think that might have a little pertinency
as to whether or not you are having emplojnnent difficulty ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. I told the Life magazine reporter Avhat the article
says, that this is not

Mr. Arens. Did he interview

Miss EoTH, May the witness complete his answer ?
Mr. Smyles, That this is not what has kept me or any other
Negro out of it.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 697

Mr. Arens. Did he interview you after the executive session in
which you appeared before this committee ?
Mr. Smyles. Did the reporter interview me ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Smyles. I had various meetings with the reporter, countless

meetings.

Mr. Arens. Did you have any meetings with hnn after you ap-
peared before this committee in executive session?

Mr. Smyles. Coukl you tell me the date of the article? Then I
probably could answer.

Mr. Moulder. March 11, 1957.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. I probably did.

Mr. Arens. And did you at any time, in these interviews with
this Life reporter after you had been in executive session before this
committee, ever tell him that you had been in executive session before
this committee?

Mr. Smyles. I don't remember if I did or not.

Mr. Arens. If you had told him that, you would have read it,
would you not ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. I told him that I was under subpena. I remember
that, but I don't remember if I told him I had been in executive
session.

Mr. Moulder. IMay I inquire? Did you at any time tell him
that you had never been a member of the Communist Party ?

]\Ir. Smyles. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Kearney. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman? I have not
fully read the article in Life, but do I understand from it that you
figure you have been discriminated against?

Mr. Smyles. If you haven't read the article, Congressman, the
article was about discrimination in the North. It seems that Life
magazine had done a previous article on discrimination in the South.
This article was to show the many subtle ways in which discrimination
still exists in the North.

Mr. Kearney. That is what I am getting at, that j'ou feel you have
been discriminated against.

Mr. Smyles. I and all other Negro musicians who aspire to the
classical field.

Mr. Kearney. Did you ever take your question of discrimination
up with the Anti-Discrimination Committee of the State of New
York?

Mr. Smi-les. No; I haven't. I have taken it to tlie Local 802, our
union, on many occasions.

Mr. Kearney. That is the place where they take all of these ques-
tions, isn't it, if I understand tlie New York State law ?

Mr. Smyles. I don't know this organization that you speak of.
Is that SCAD?

]Mr. Kearney. It is a New York State organization.

INIr. Smyles. I take it where I am a member, before Local 802, the
board of Local 802.

91198— 57— pt. 1 7

698 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Kearnf.y. Do they take it before the State organization?

Mr. Smyles. They may, in a specific case, if there is a specific case.

Mr. Kearney. Do you know if they took your case before it ?

Mr. Smyees. They haven't.

Mr. Akens. Do von occupy an office in Local 802?

Mr. Smyles. I do not.

]HTv. Arens. Have vou ever occui)ied an office in Local 802?

Mr. Smyles. No ; I have not.

iNTr. Arexs. Have you ever served in the LTnited States Army?

Mr. Smyles, Yes.

M)-. Arens. Wlien ?

Mr. Smyles. 1942 to 1946.

Mr. Arens. Durinnj the course of your service in the United States
Army w^^re you ever, during that period of time, a member of the
Connnunist Party ?

Mr. S:\rYi,ES. I decline to answer that mider the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. ^Vhere did you serve in the United States Army ?

Mr. Smyles. Two and a half years in Georgia and a year in France.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity?

Mr. Smyles. I started out as a buck sergeant in the Quartermaster
Cor])s and I ended up in the Quartermaster Corps.

]\Ir. Arens. In what status?

Mr. Smyles. Master sergeant.

INIr. Arens. Are you a composer of music, too ?

Mr. Smyles. No ; I am not.

Mr. Arens. I would like to lay before you now a thermofax repro-
duction of the Communist Daily Worker of February 23, 1954, with
reference to a concert, nuisic by Negro composers, from symphonic
nuances to jazz improvisations; participating artists, naming a num-
ber, include Harry Smyles; all under the auspices of the New York
Council of Arts, Sciences, and Professions. See if that refreshes your
recollection with reference to your appearance at that function.

(Document handed to witness.)

(Witness conferred witli his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. Yes ; this was a job that I played at.

(Document marked "Smyles Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

* ******

Mr. Arens. Were yon a Communist when you played there ?

Mr. Smyles. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taught at the Jefferson School of Social
Science ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. No ; I have not.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever appeared there in a professional ca-
pacity ?

Mr. Smyles. No; I have not.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever appeared under the auspices of the Divi-
sion of Jewish Studies of the Jefferson School of Social Science?

Mr. Smyles. Not to the best of my reproduction.

Mr. Arens. T lay before you now a thermofax reproduction of a
leaflet showing an appearance by yoiu'self at Town Hall, 8: 30 p. m..
Division of Jewish Studies of the Jefferson School of Social Science.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 699

Harry Smyles, oboist. Kindly look at that document and tell us, if
you please, sir, if that refreshes your recollection with reference to
your appearance on that occasion.

(Document handed to witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. As an oboist I have appeared many places. I have
no recollection of this. This is quite some time ago.

(Document marked "Smyles Exhibit No. -3," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Did you play with the Cleveland Philharmonic Sym-
phony?

Mr. Smyles. Yes, I did.

Mr. Arens. "Who engaged you for that production ?

Mr. Smyles. It was a regular symphony orchestra.

Mr. Arens. Yes, but who engaged you ?

Mr. Smyles. The conductor.

Mr. Arens. "VVlio was he?

Mr. ]\IouLDER. Do we have any evidence that that person was a
Communist or active in the Communist Party ?

Mr. Arens. I don't know who he is yet.

Mr. Smyles. He is the head of the music department at Western
Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, Dr. F. Carl Grossman.

Mr. Arens. At any time was the subject of Communist Party
membership a subject of conversation as a prerequisite to your obtain-
ing employment in that organization?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Smyles. No.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the time
you were appearing with the Cleveland Philharmonic Symphony ?

Mr. Smyles. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions ?

Mr. Doyle. No questions.

Mr. Frazeer. No questions.

Mr. Kearney. I have a question. You are a member of Local 802?

Mr. Smyles. That is right.

Mr. Kearney. From the questions previously asked you, I would
suggest this : That you go to your office of Local 802, if you feel you
have been discriminated against, because that is the reason that law
is on the statute books of the State of New York, to prevent such
cases.

Mr. Smyles. I have been before the board many times. I have
been before the union many times.

Mr. Kearney. On this question ?

Mr. Smyles. Yes.

Mr. Kearney. Did you ever get a report from them as to what
happened, or whether they did anything or not for you ?

Mr. Smyles. Once a year, they give a Negro his three-week pro-
gram in which they employ an orchestra of Negro musicians and
white musicians, which is broadcast to Europe by the State Depart-
ment. Last year we gave a very wonderful concert.

700 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Kearney. No, I mean on your particular case, whether your
officers went before the State commission or not.

Mr. Smyles. There hasn't been any specific instance.

Mr. Kearney. There hasn't been any specific instance.

Mr. Smyles. That is all.

Mr. Moulder. Are there any other questions ?

Mr. McIntosh. No questions.

Mr. Moulder. I want to ask a question or two to clarify some of
your testimony previously given.

As I understand from the beginning, on this program of March 11
for the NBC-TV, counsel asked you several questions about it, and
this question was asked you :

Well, now, do you plan to answer all the questions the committee will put
to you, or are you going to take refuge behind the first or fifth amendments
when you go before the committee?

Your answer was :

Franlily, at the present time I really don't know what my position is going to
be.

Is that correct ?

Mr. Smyles. That was correct.

Mr. Arens. May I clarify that? The interview I was asking him
about was the second interview. The interview from which the chair-
man is now reading is the informal first interview. I was reading
from the interview wliich went out across this Nation wliich is at the
bottom of the page,

Mr. Moulder. I just wanted to ask the witness if this was true and
correct.

What is your present attitude now about the Communist Party?
What was your response to tlie question when you were asked if you
were a member ?

Mr. Smyles. I decline to answer that under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Moulder. You decline to answer it as to your present affilia-
tion as to whether or not you are ?

Mr. Smyles. You are inferring. I haven't said anything about
affiliation.

Mr. Moulder. I am not inferring anything. I understood you to
have said you were not now, I have forgotten the previous part of
your testimony. You said you were not now, but declined to answer
as to the other,

Mr, Smyles. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr, Moulder. I want to clarify this. This witness is claiming dis-
crimination. As I understand the theme of counsel's questions, it is
discrimination because you are Negro. That is, from this article in
Life magazine. It appears that there may be some other causes why
you may have been handicapped in your musical career. That is be-
cause of your

Mr. Smyles. You take this as though I am the only Negro. There
are many Negroes. For instance, in all of the symphony orchestras
of this country, as of now none of the major symphony orchestras in
this country employ a Negro musician.

Mr. Moulder. You served in the Armed Forces?

Mr, Smyles, I was in the Armed Forces when there was no inte-
gration. I was in a Jim Crow part of the Armed Forces.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 701

Mr. Moulder. And you received an honorable discharge?

Mr, Smyles. I did, sir.

Mr. Moulder. You served your country f aithl'idly and patriotically
as a member of the armed services?

Mr. Smyles. I did.

Mr. Moulder. I want to ask you this question : In the event of a war
between our country and the Soviet Union, Avould you still fight on
the side of your counti'y, just as you did before?

Mr. Smyles. If this country was attacked by any other country,
1 would fight for my wife, my children, my home.

Mr. Moulder. My point is this : In the event our country was em-
broiled, or became involved, in a war with Russia, w^ould you fight to
defend your country?

INIr. Smyles. I am not a soldier, I am a musician; but if I was
(h-afted, as I was drafted before, I would serve as I did before.

Mr. Kearney. I move, Mr. Chairman, that we adjourn until 10
o'clock tomorrow uiorning.

JNIr. Moulder. The committee will now recess. The subpenas of the
witnesses who have not testified today will continue, and they will
appear here tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 4:-^>5 p. m. Tuesday, April 9, the committee was
recessed, to reconvene at 10 a. m. Wednesday, April 10, 1957.)

NVESTIGATION OF COMMUNISM IN THE METROPOLI-
TAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC., AND RELATED FIELDS-
PART 1

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 10, 1957

United States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,

New York, N. Y.
public hearing

The subcommittee of tlie Committee on Un-American Activities met
at 10 : 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 35, United States courthouse,
Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Clyde Doyle presiding.

(^onnnittee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle of Cali-
fornia, James B. Frazier, Jr., of Tennessee, Bernard W. Kearney of
New York, and Robert J. Mcintosh of Michigan.

Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; Dolores Scotti,
irivestigator; Frank Bonora, acting clerk.

(Present at the opening of the hearing: Representatives Clyde
Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., Bernard W. Kearney, and Robert J.
Mcintosh.)

Mr. Doyle. The subconunittee will be in order. Mr. Arens, will
you call your first witness ?

Mr. Arens. Mr. David Walter, please come forward.

Mr. DoYi^E. May the record show that tlie committee reconvened
Ihis morning at 10: 10, the subcommittee members present being Mr.
Frazier, Mr. Kearney, Mr. Mcintosh, and myself. Mr. Moulder is
not present at the moment.

We will proceed.

Mr. Arens. Miss Thelma Pyle, please come forward.

The counsel to David Walter, Mr. Chairman, made a spei^-ial request
tliat he be taken very early this morning because of other commitments.
I have called him, but he is not here. We will proceed with this
witness and try to work him in as we can.

Mr. Doyle. Do you solenndy swear that you will tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but tlie truth, so help you God?

Miss Pyle. I do.

TESTIMONY OF THELMA PYLE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

MILDRED ROTH

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Miss Pyle. ]\[y name is Thelma Pyle. I live at 549 Riverside Drive.
1 am a piano teacher.

703

704 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Miss Pyle?

Miss Pyle. I teach privately and at the Metropolitan ]\Iusic School.

Mr. Arens. Are you on the board of directors of the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Miss Pyle. Yes. I was elected by the faculty to serve.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been on the board of directors of
the Metropolitan IMusic School ?

Miss Pyle. To the best of my recollection, it is 4 or 6 years. I am
not sure.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subjDena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?

Miss Pyle. Yes.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel?

Miss Pyle. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Miss Roth. Mildred Eoth,' 401 Broadway, New York City.

Mr. Arens. Miss Pyle, do vou know a person by the name of Leon-
ard Cherlin?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Arens. He spells his name C-h-e-r-1-i-n.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Pyle. I decline to answer on the basis of my rights under the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Miss P^de, yesterday ]\Ir. Leonard Cherlin took an oath
before this committee and testified that while he was a member of the
Communist Party he knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or
was he telling the truth ?

Miss Pyle. I decline to answer on the basis of my rights under the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, this moment, a member of the Com-
munist Party?

Miss Pyle. I decline to answer o]i the same basis.

Mr. Arens. Where were you employed immediately prior to your
employment with the Metropolitan JNIusic School?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Pyle. I think perhaps I have to explain. I teach there only
1 day a week. The rest of my teaching is private, as I explained to
you. I have also taught at another school, the Academy of Mount
St. Ursula.

Mr. ApuEns. Where is that, please?

Miss Pyle. That is in the Bronx.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time did you teach there?

Miss Pyle. I taught there for approximately 10 years.

Mr. Arens. Would you tell us the dates, roughly speaking?

Miss Pyle. I think it was 2 years ago that I resigned because of the
growth of my private teaching.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while
you were engaged in teaching at ISIount St. Ursula ?

Miss Pyle. I decline to answer under my rights under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Was your disassociation from Mount St. Ursula
Academj^ wholly and completely voluntary, or was it a forced dis-
association ?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 705

Miss Ptle. It was wholly voluntary.

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairnkn, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staff interrogration of this witness.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Frazier?

Mr. Frazier. No questions.

JNIr. Doyle. ISIr. Kearney ?

Mr. Kearney. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Mcintosh ?

Mr. McIntosii. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. The witness is excused.

Call your next witness.

Mr. Aeens. Lucy Brown, please come forward.

Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn ?

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ^

Miss Bro^vn. I do.

TESTIMONY OF LUCY BROWN (LUCY BROWN WAILACH), ACCOM-
PANIED BY COUNSEL, ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN

Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Miss Browx. Lucy Brown, 100 West 91st Street, musician.

Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today, Miss Brown, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?

Miss Browx. Yes.

Mr. Arexs. And you are represented by counsel ?

Miss Browx. I am.

Mr. Arexs. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself i

Mr. Needle3Iax. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York
6,N.Y.

Mr. Arexs. Is your name "Miss" Brown or "Mrs." Brown ?

Miss Browx^. My professional name is i\liss Lucy Brown.

Mr. Arexs. Do you have a nonprofessional name or a name that is
not in a professional category ?

Miss Browx. I would like to consult my lawyer.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Browx". I am married, and my married name is Lucy Wallach.

Mr. Arexs. Where are you employed ?

Miss Browx. I am a free-lance musician.

Mr. Arexs. What instrument do you play ?

Miss Browx. I play the piano.

Mr. Arexs. Do you also instruct?

Miss Browx. Yes ; privately.

Mr, Arexs. Do you have any connection with the ^Metropolitan
Music School ?

Miss Browx. I would like to consult my counsel on this.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Browx. For some length of time, I was a sponsor of the
school.

Mr. Arexs. Over what period of time were you a sponsor of the
Metropolitan Music School?

Miss Browx'. I honestly do not remember.

706 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. What is your best recollection as to the approximate
time, the ai^proximate period?

Miss Brown. Well, I think I must have been approached some
time in the 194:0's, and I have never made any request to have the
sponsorship changed. But I don't even know at this point whether
I am still publicly listed as a sponsor.

Mr. Aeens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party ?

Miss Brown. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taught any place, at any institution?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult counsel on this.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I taught for a brief ])eriod in a nuisic school on
5th Avenue and 9th Street. I believe the name was the School for
Contemporary INIusic. I was substituting.

Mr. Arens. And have you ever taught at the Metropolitan Music
School ?

Miss Brown. No.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taught at tlie Jefferson School of
Social Science ?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult counsel.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the sponsors of tlie "Save the
Rosenbergs" connnittee?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult my counsel on that, please.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I don't remember whether I was actually

Mr. Arens. IMay I display to you now, if you please, a thermofax
reproduction of an article which appeared in the Communist Daily
Worker — the date is on here — in which your name appears as one of
the sponsors in the musician category of the "Save the Rosenbergs"
eiiter])rise.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

INIr. Arens. Does that refresh your recollection ?

Miss Brown. Yes, it does, and I would like to say that I am proud
to identify myself among the people wlio were on that committee.

(Document marked "Brown Exliibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the National Council of the
Arts, Sciences, and Professions ?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult my counsel on that.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline inider the fifth amendment.

]Mr. Arens. I display to you now a thermofax reproduction of a
page from tlie Communist Daily Worker of August 7, 1950, in which
you are listed as one of the signers of a statement issued by the
National Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions.

Kindly look at that document and tell this committee whether or
not that refreshes your recollection and whether or not that article
accui'ately describes you.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with lier counsel.)

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 707

ISIiss Browx. I decline under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Brown Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. AiJEXS. Who is V. J. Jerome?
jNIiss Brown. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. You were one of the champions of V. J. Jerome when
he Avas being tried here in Foley Square back in 1052; were you not?
Miss Browx. I would like to consult counsel.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Miss Browx. I decline under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arexs. I display to you now a thennofax reproduction of the
letter from the Conuuittee'To Defend V. J. Jerome for intellectual
and cultural freedom [dated April 14, 1952], in which your name
appears as one of the artists who are listed here as champions of the
Culture Fights Back Eally tribute to V. J. Jerome.

Kindly look at that document and tell this committee whether or
not you can verify its authenticity.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Broavx. I decline under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Brown Exhibit No. 3," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arexs. "What have you done in the course of the last few years
toward promotion of peace in the Avorld? Have you been one of the
promoters of peace?

Miss Browx. I would like to consult counsel, please.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I have been too busy in the last few years, if that is
the nature of the question, to concern myself.

Mr. Arexs. I would just like to invite your attention to a thermofax
reproduction of the Communist Daily Worker of ]March 15, 1951, in
which you are listed as one of the sponsore of the American Peace
CriLsade.

Would you kindly look at this document which is now^ being dis-
l)layed to you and see if that refreshes your recollection?

(The docmnent was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Brown Exhibit No. 4," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arexs. Were you in the recent past, or the last few years, on the
committee of the Metropolitan ISIusic School which awards scholar-
.ships to students?

Miss Browx. I would like to consult my attorney,

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Browx. Yes ; I was.

Mr. Arexs. How long did you serve on the scholarehip awai'd com-
mittee of the Metropolitan Music School ? Do you recall ?

Miss Browx. For one session.

Mr, Arexs. And did you vote to make awards to students ?

MissBRow'x. I did.

JNIr. Arexs. While you were operating in that capacity, Avere you also
a member of the Communist Party at that time ?

708 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Miss Brown. I decline to ans^Yer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Aeens. Have you been a member of the Civil Rights Con-
gress, or have you been active in the affairs of the Civil Rights
Congress ?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult my attorney.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I want to display to you now a thermofax reproduction
of an article in the Communist Daily Worker [June 6, 1949, p. 2],
in which, according to the article, a number of notables are blasting
or branding Judge Medina's jailing of the 11 Communist leaders,
under the auspices — at least the article says the blasting is being done
under the auspices — of the Civil Rights Congress, and it bears the
signatures of a number of persons, including Lucy Brown.

Kindly look at that document that is being displayed to you and
see if that refreshes your recollection with reference to your partici-
pation in that enterprise.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked 'Brown Exhibit No. 5," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Are you a ]\rarxist ?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult counsel, please.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I don't wish to discuss my politics witli this com-
mittee.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. You are ordered and directed to answer the question,
Witness.

Miss Brown. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I display a copy of the March 12, 1953, Communist
Daily Worker in which a number of people — according to the article,
400 — had a dinner here in New York City, on the right to learn
IMarxism, and a number of people are characterized as leading
Marxists.

In the concert which accompanied the affair, or the entertainment of
the affair, Miss Lucy Brown is listed as one of the participants and
one of the artists who entertained at the affair.

Kindly look at that and see if that refreshes your recollection.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Brown Exhibit No. 6" and retained in com-
mittee files. )

Mr. Doyle. Counsel, may I ask a question ?

Will you make a statement briefly as to the connection of Marxism
with Soviet Communism? Why is that question pertinent, as long
as the witness answered that she did not care to discuss political affili-
ations ?

Mr. Arens. The pertinency is that the Jefferson School of Social
Science has long been one of the nests of Communist activity in the
United States.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 709

Enumatino- from tluit has been the theoretical ideological basis
upon which the Communist conspiracy in this country has been oper-
ating, that the Communist dynamics stem from the ideolog-y of Marx-
ism. It is to communism what the Bible is to Christianity, I should
say.

The Jefferson School of Social Science, in this particular instance,
was the institution in Avhich this affair was held. Also, in the dia-
lectics of connnunism, Communists frequently allude to themselves
not as Connnunists but as Marxists; and they also allude to them-
selves in such terminology as "Socialists," "Progressives," and the
like. They will masquerade behind that. It is for that reason that
the question, in my opinion, is pertinent to this inquiry.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you.

Mr. Arens. Have you entertained at chapter meetings of the Na-
tional Lawyers Guild ?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult counsel.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Browx. I appeared mider their auspices as an artist.

Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with People's Artists, Inc. ?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult counsel.

(The witness conferred witli her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a thermofax reproduction of the
Communist Daily Worker of October 6, 1949, bearing an article,
"People's Artists Organize New Kind of Music Series."

According to the article, Paul Robeson entertained at this Peekskill
concert under the auspices of People's Artists, Inc.; and one of the
participants in their programs is listed here as Lucy Brown, concert
pianist.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Brown Exhibit No. T," and retained in com-
mittee files. )

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the sponsors of the American
Women for Peace ^ Do you recall your sponsorship of that enter-
prise back in 1950 ?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult my counsel.

(The witness conferred with her comisel.)

Miss Brown. I decline mider the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I display to you now, if you please, a thermofax repro-
duction of a bulletin issued by that organization, in which you are
listed as one of the sponsors — one of about a dozen sponsors — of that
organization.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Arens. I ask you wliether or not that accurately and truth-
fully describes your status in connection with that organization?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I decline under the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Brown Exhibit No. 8," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Who were the Warsaw Ghetto Fighters?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult with counsel.

710 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I don't know to what you refer. If you have a docu-
ment to shoAV me to refresh my recollection, I— —

Mr. Arens. Yes, I would be glad to refresh your recollection. I
have here a handbill, entitled "A Tribute to the Warsaw Ghetto
Fighters," back in 1952, in which a number of people, outstanding
speakers and artists, are paying tribute to the Ghetto Fightei-s in
Warsaw. This was presented by Jewish Life.

Kindly look at tliis document and see if it refreshes your recollec-
tion with reference to identification or connection with that enter-
prise.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I remember now what this refere to, and I would
like to say that I was very proud to be associated with an affair which
was dedicated to the Jewish fighters that fought the Nazis.

(Document marked "Brown Exhibit No. 9," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. That was in what year, please?

Miss Brown. I don't remember any more. You will have to bring
it back to me.

Mr. Arens. Well, the document will speak for itself.

Who is Harry Bridges?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult counsel.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. As I recall, Harry Bridges is a trade union leader
on the west coast.

Mr. Arens. Do you know anything else about him?

Miss Brown. Yes. I know that he was many times threatened with
deportation.

Mr. Arens. Do you know him personally?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult counsel.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brow^n. I never met him.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not he is a Comnuuiist?

Miss Brown. I would like to consult counsel.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Brown. I don't know.

Mr. Arens. You were a sponsor of a Citizens' Victory Committee
for PTarry Bridges, were you not ?

Miss Brown. I was.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr, Doyle. Have you any questions, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. Frazier. No questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Kearney ?

Mr. Kearney. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Mcintosh?

Mr. McIntosii. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Counsel, you have identified this witness as having
had some connection with several organizations. I think it pertinent,
therefore, that the record show what some of these organizations are,
according to the Guide to Subversive Organizations and Publications,

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 711

published as of January 2, 1957, by the Committee on Un-American
Activities, House of Representatives.

Mr. Needleman. Is the witness excused, Mr. Chairman ?

Mr. Doyle. Not quite yet. I may want to ask her a question.

The American Peace Crusade, for instance, on page 13 of this book-
let, was organized in January 1951, witli national headquarters at
1186 Broadway, New York, and—

1. Cited as an organization which "the Communists established" as "a new
instrument for tlieir "poaee' offensive in the United States," and which was
heralded by the Daily Worker "with the usual bold headlines reserved for proj-
ects in line with the Communist objectives."

2. "As part of Soviet psychological warfare against the United States, Com-
munist fronts seek to paralyze America's will to resist Communist aggression
by idealizing Russia's aims and methods, discrediting the United States, spread-
ing defeatism and demoralization * * * specializing in this field * * * have
been such organizations as the American Peace Crusade."

And the American Peace Crusade (during Stalin-Hitler pact) on
page 14, is :

Cited as "a Communist front later merged into the American Peace Mobiliza-
tion," and as the "California section of the American Peace Mobilization."

Now, as to the American Women for Peace, in the same book that
I have referred to, on page 18 :

1. Cited as "an advance wave to establish a beachhead for other leftwing
organizations scheduled to descend on Washington in observance of a Commu-
nist-declared "I'eace Week"."

Referring to the same book, on page 25 thereof, as to the Civil
Rights Congress :

1. Cited as subversive and Communist (Attorney General Tom Clark).

2. Cited as an organization formed at a Congress on Civil Rights held in
Detroit in April 104(j as a merger of two other Communist-front organizations.
( International Labor Defense and the National Federation of Constitutional
Liberties) ; it was "dedicated not to the broader issues of civil liberties, but
specitically to the defense of individual Communists and the Communist Party"
and "controlled by individuals who are either members of the Communist Party
or openly loyal to it."

Pi. "To defend the cases of Communist lawbreakers, fronts have been devised
making special ai)peals in bebalf of civil liberties and reaching out far beyond
tlie confines of the Comnninist Party itself. Among these organizations is the
Civil Rights Congress. When the Communist Party itself is under fire these
fronts offer a bulwark of protection."

Referring to the National Council of Arts, Sciences, and Profes-
sions, on pages 61 and 62 of tliis same booklet :

1. Cited as a Communist front. (Committee on Un-American Activities,
House Report 19-54 * * *.)

2. Cited as a Communist front which is "used to appeal to special occupa-
tional groups * * *." (Internal Security Subcommittee of the Senate Judiciary
''nnunittee).

I tliought it was pertinent, in view of the questions and answers of
the witness, that the record have tliis chronological record at this
j)oint in the record.

Thank you. Witness.

If there is nothing further, you are excused.

Mr. Arexs. Mildred Hagler, kindly come forward.

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the liiilh, the whole
truth, and nothing l)ut the truth, so help you God ?

Miss Hagi.er. I do.

712 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

TESTIMONY OF MILDRED HAGLER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Miss Hagler. Mildred Hauler, 334 East 94th Street.

Mr. Kearney. Will the witness speak up? I cannot hear her.

Miss Hagler. 334 East 94th Street, New York 28. I am a typist.

Mr. Arens. You are appearino- today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?

Miss Hagler. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?

Miss Hagler. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Needleman. Isidore Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York 6,
N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Is your name "Miss" Hagler?

Miss Hagler. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Leonard Cherlin?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. I respectfully decline under the fifth amendment of
the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel. Miss Hagler, that if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not you know a person by the name
of Leonard Cherlin, you would be supplying information which might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler, Yes.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Cherlin yesterday took an oath before this com-
mittee, laid his liberty on the line — if he lied, he will be subject to
criminal prosecution for perjury — and while he was under oath, he
said that while he was a member of the Communist Party he knew
you as a Communist. Was Mr. Cherlin lying to this committee or
was he telling the truth ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. I respectfully decline under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Thelma Pyle?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. I respectfully decline under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. What was the name of the lady who just preceded you
to the witness stand ? Do you know her ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. I respectfully decline.

Mr. Arens. Wliere are you employed ?

Mr. Needleman. I would like to have the record show that when
she declines, it is on the same ground. She didn't finish the answer.

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon. Finish your answer, if you please.

Miss Hagler. I respectfully decline under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. ^Vliere are you employed ?

Miss Hagler. I am not employed at present.

Mr. Arens. Where were you last employed ?

Miss LLagler. I am a free-lance typist, and I w^as last employed
by I. G. Needleman.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 713

Mr. Arens. Who is I. G. Needleman ?

Miss Hagler. My counsel. I typed something for him.

Mr, Arens. Have you ever been employed or associated in any
capacity with the Metropolitan Music School ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. I was employed by the Metropolitan Music School as
a typist and secretary.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time ?

Miss Hagler. I don't remember exactly. It was rouohly about
4 years.

Mr. Arens. When did the employment begin, rougldy speaking?

(The witness conferred with lier counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Around 1949.

Mr. Arens. For 4 yeai*s beginning in 1949 ?

]\Iiss Hagler. Yes, more or less. Approximately that.

Mr. Arens. For whom were you a secretary ?

Miss Hagler. I was secretary for the Metropolitan Music School.

Mr. Arens. Who was it gave you dictation? Wio dictated the
letters to you ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Well, actually I didn't take any dictation per se.

Mr. Arens. What were your duties ?

Miss Hagler. I made the payroll, I typed things up. It did not
necessarily include dictation.

Mr. Arens. Did you keep the books for the Metropolitan Music
School, the financial records?

Miss Hagler. No.

Mr. Arens. Those were kept by the treasurer, I take it?

Miss Hagler. No doubt.

Mr. Arens. Where were you employed immediately prior to your
employment with the Metropolitan Music School ?

Miss Hagler. I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. Was your employment with the Metropolitan Music
School facilitated, or obtained for you, by any person known by you
to have been a Communist?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Certainly not.

Mr. Arens. Who hired you as secretary at the Metropolitan iSIusic
School ?

Miss. Hagler. I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. Were you employed by Lilly Popper?

(The ^vitness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. I don't recall if I was directly hired by IVIiss Popper.

Mr. Arens. Did you know Miss Popper prior to tlie time that you
became an employee of the Metropolitan Music School ;'

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. No.

Mr. Arens. Do you recall the circumstances concerning your em-
ployment, how you happened to know there was a jNIetropolitan Music
School at which you might find a job ?

Miss Hagler. No ; I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. What precipitated your disassoeiation from the Metro-
politan Music School ?

91198— 57— pt. 1 8

714 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Well, I finally decided that I had to liave full-time
work.

Mr. Arens. And then where did you work?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss PLvGLER. I respectfully decline to answer that under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arexs. How long was your employment in the job that you
assumed innnediately after your disassociation from the AIetro])olitan
Music School ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss IIaoler. I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. Was it a matter of a yeari*

Miss Hagler. Yes.

Mv. Arens. Was it a matter of more than a year?

Miss Ha(jler. It could be. I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. Where was the oeooraphical location of your employ-
ment ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. It was in the midtown area; Manhattan.

JNIr, Arens. Was it for a Communist organization?

Miss Hagler. 1 decline to answer on the lifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. I couldn't hear you, ma'am.

Miss Hagler. 1 beg your pardon. I respectfully decline under the
fifth amendment.

Mv. Arens. When did this emj^loyment begin? In what year?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Some time in 195-).

Mr. Arens. When did it terminate?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. 1955 or 1954.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this connnittee
truthfully where you were employed, you woidd be supplying informa-
tion wliich might be used against you in a criminal ]uoceeding?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

JNIiss Ha(;ler. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. What was your next employment ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. After that T was employed at the Terminal Letter
Co.

Mr. Arens. For how long?

Miss Hagler. Ivoughly a year and a half.

Mr. Arens. And your next em])loyment, if you please?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Ha(;ler. That was JNIorse Associates.

Ml". Arens. Just a word about the organization. What is the
nature of the work?

Miss Hagler. It is similar to a letter shop.

Ml'. Arens. How long did that employment last?

Miss Hagler. That was about a month and a half.

Mr. Arens. And then your next employment?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss HA<iLER. I didn't work again after that. I decided to go to
school.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 715

Mr. Arkns. Where did you <>:o to school i

Miss IIaglek. In niidtown; Manliattaii.

Mr. Arens. What is the name of the institut ion you attended 'i

Miss Hagler. Ralph Coxhead.

Mr. Arens. What is the nature of the organization ?

Miss ILvGLi'^R. It is a new kind of office machine.

Mr. Arens. Hoay lono; did you attend this institution, this school?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Aliss Hagler. I have been there about a week.

Mr. Arens. Then your next activity? What did you do after you
concluded your week's service in the school ?

Miss Hagler. This brings me up to date.

Mr. Arens. Have. you ever been a member of the teachei's' union?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Do you have knowledge as to the number of members
of the faculty of the Metroi)olitan Music School who arc or have been
members of the teachers' union ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Mr. Arens, please, I have been away from the Metro-
politan Music School since about June 1953.

Mr. Arens. When you were connected with the Metropolitan Music
School in June 1953, w'ere you a member of the teachers' union ?

Miss Hagler. At that time, yes.

Mr. Arens. Did the other teachers belong to the teachers' union,
the other instructors at the ]\Ietropolitan Music School ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Yes ; I believe so.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever instructed, yourself ?

Miss Hagler. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Where did you teach ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. I instructed at the Metropolitan Music School.

Mr. Arens. Did that period of instruction coincide with your tenure
there as secretary ?

Miss Hagler. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. Arens. Where else have you instructed ?

Miss IL\GLER. Well, my teaching has been very, very, very limited.

Mr. Arens. Did you teach at the New York Band & Instrument Co. ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Hagler. Yes.

Mr. Arens. W^hen?

Miss Hagler. I dont' remember.

Mr. Arens. How long ago was it ? Was it 10 years ago ?

Miss Hagler. I would think so.

JNIr. Arens. Are you now, this minute, a Communist ?

Miss Hagler. I respectfully decline to answer this under the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Doyle. Ha\e you any questions, ]\Ir. Frazier ?

Mr. Frazier. No questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Kearney?

Mr. Kearney. No questions.

716 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Mcintosh?

Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. I do not have any questions ; but while the witness is
here, I want to call to the attention of the committee and the record
a brief paragraph appearing in the New York Times this morning.
1 read it into the record at this time because yesterday some of the
witnesses claimed that this committee was exceeding its jurisdiction
in the questions we were asking of witnesses as to whom they knew
as Communists, and so forth, not being pertinent. I read this news
item :

Newsman Guilty in Contempt Case

Washington, April 9. — Aklen Whitman, a copy editor * * * was convicted
today of contempt of Congress. .Judse Edward M. Curran, who heard the case
without a jury in Federal district court, found Mr. Whitman guilty on all 19
counts of an indictment returned last November 26. Mr. Whitman refused at
a Senate Internal Security Subcommittee hearing on January 6, 1956, to name
persons he had known as Communists during the time he was a member of
the Communist Party. He testified that he had been a party member from
1935 to 1948 in Bridgeport, Conn., and Buffalo and New York. * * *

Judge Curran permitted Mr. Whitman to tell why he had refused to answer
the subcommittee's questions. He said that to have answered would have cast
him in the role of an informer and would have been repugnant to his self-
respect. * * *

Judge Curran held that a congressional inquiry as to the number of Com-
munists and who they were, and the growth and extent of the Communist move-
ment in this country, was pertinent to a valid legislative purpose.

The questions asked Mr. Whitman [by the committee] he held were relevant
to that purpose.

I have not read the full text of the article, and for purposes of
brevity I ask that only the portion I have read go into the record.

(At this point Representatives Robert J. Mcintosh and Bernard
W. Kearney left the hearing room.)

Mr. Doyle. We will have a recess for 5 minutes at this point.

(A short recess was taken. Committee members present: Repre-
sentatives Clyde Doyle and James B. Frazier, Jr.)

(At the expiration of the recess, the subcommittee reconvened with
the following members present : Representatives Clyde Doyle, James
B. Frazier, Jr., Bernard W. Kearney, and Robert J. Mcintosh.)

Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will please reconvene.

Let the record show that Messrs. Frazier, Kearney, Mcintosh, and
Doyle are present. Therefore, we will proceed.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Frank Schwartz, kindly come forward.

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Schwartz. I do.

TESTIMONY OF FEANK SCHWARTZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

FRANK SCHEINER

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

Mr. Schwartz. My name is Frank Schwartz. My address is 21-25
34th Avenue, Long Island City, N. Y. As to my occupation, I re-
spectfully decline to answer. In declining to answer

Mr. Arens. Excuse me just a moment. Are you reading from a
statement ?

Mr. Schwartz. I am.

COMIVIUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 717

Mr. Arexs. Who prepared the statement ?

Mr. Schwartz. I did.

Mr. Arens. Thank you.

Mr. Schwartz. As to my occupation, I respectfully decline to an-
swer. In declining to answer, I stand on each and every right and
privilege I have under the Constitution of the United States, includ-
ing my rights under the first and fifth amendments, and my right not
to be required to be a witness against myself.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the Plouse Committee on Un-American
Activities ?

Mr. Schwartz, I am.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Schwartz. I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Scheiner. Frank Scheiner, 401 Broadway, New York City,
N. Y.

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend, sir, that if you told this
committee truthfully what your occupation is, you would be giving
information that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?

Mr. Schwartz, I stand on my previous answer,

Mr. Arens, Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness now
be ordered and directed to answer the last outstanding principal
question,

Mr, Doyle, You are ordered and directed to answer the last ques-
tion, Mr. Witness. We cannot accept the answer you gave.

Mr. Schwartz, I respectfully decline to answer. In declining to
answer, I stand on each and every right I have under the Consti-
tution of the United States, including my rights under the first and
fifth amendments, and my right not to be a witness against myself,

Mr. Arens. So that we may be absolutely without question thor-
oughly fair, the question which is outstanding on this record is
for the purpose of developing facts as to whether or not your in-
vocation of the fifth amendment is in good faith. If you do not
honestly apprehend that the answer to the preceding principal ques-
tion would give information which might be used against you in a
criminal proceeding, you have no right to invoke the fifth amend-
ment. Therefore, I now repeat the question, so there will be no
■question about it on tliis record.

Do you honestly fear, sir, that if you told this committee what
your occupation is, you would be supplying information which might,
directly or indirectly, give facts which could be used against you in
a criminal proceeding?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr, Schwartz. I stand on my ]:)revious answer.

Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, so there can be no question about
the status of this record, I respectfully suggest that the record again
reflect an order and direction to the witness to answer this question.

Mr. Doyle, I again order and direct you to answer that question. I
wish to state this, that our committee counsel is not undertaking to act
as legal counsel for any witness; but we believe that our committee
counsel, in making that statement, meant it to be, as he stated, to be
fully frank and fully fair. We do not undertake to do anj'thing which
deliberately puts any person in contempt. Therefore, our counsel is

718 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

going out of his way to give the benefit, to the extent to which it is
accepted and received, of the position we take. But we say to every
witness, "You rely on your own counsel." Our committee coun-
sel is not in a position to legally advise you. He can give you the
best information, and you can take it or leave it. We do not want
anyone left in a position where they are in contempt without knowing
that that is the position.

What is your answer to the question ?

Mr. Schwartz. I would like to consult my counsel again.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. Would you repeat the question directly to me again,
please?

Mr. Arens. Do you honestly fear, sir, that if you told this commit-
tee what your occupation is, where you are employed, you would be
supplying information which might, directly or indirectly, give facts
which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. Yes, I do.

Mr. Arens. Are you an instructor at the ISIetropolitan Music
School?

]\Ir. Schwartz. I would like consult my counsel.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. No, I am not.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been an instructor at the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Mr. Schwartz. About 17 years ago, for a period of 3 or 4 weeks,
I had 2 pupils, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Arens. I would like to have you help us, then.

We have here the catalog of the 1950-57 ^letropolitan Music School.
On page 4 of this catalog we have listed here the bassoon, and the
instructor listed for the bassoon is Frank Schwartz.

Kindly look at that catalog, if you please, and tell us if 3'ou can help
us to account how your name happens to appear in the 1956-57 catalog
as the instructor in bassoon if you have not instructed there for the
many years which j'ou referred to a moment ago.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his comisel.)

Mr. Schwartz. In answer to this question, I must say that I have
never given a lesson on bassoon at the Metropolitan Music School at
any time; that I have had no contact wliatever with the Metropolitan
Music School for many, many 3'ears; and that any contact, when it did
exist, lasted for a period of several weeks.

I told you I had 2 pupils at that time, and I don't think I gave them
more than 5 or 6 lessons all told between the 2 pupils.

(Document marked "Schwartz Exhibit No. 1," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you ever remonstrated with the officials of the
Metropolitan Music School or requested them to cause your name to
be removed from the faculty list ?

Mr. Schwartz. I might have at some period in the past, but not
in a very, very serious way. In other words, I might not have done
it as strongly as I could have.

Mr. Arens. Now, I display to you the 1955-56 catalog of the Metro-
politan Music School, on page 4 of wliich your name likewise appears
as the instructor in the bassoon.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 719

(The dociiinent was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with liis counseL)

Mr. Schwartz. What is your question, please?

Mr. Arens. Did you liave knowledge that your name was listed as
an instructor during the period covered by the catalog which is now
being displayed to you ?

Mr. Schwartz. I did not.

(Document marked "Schwartz Exhibit No. 2," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arexs. Now that you know that your name is listed as an
instructor, and has been listed for some time as an instructor, in the
Metropolitan Music School, do you propose to cause your name to be
removed, to take such steps as you can to cause it to be removed ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHw^vRTz, I haven't had an opportunity to think about it. I
will have to think about it first.

A[r. Arexs. Are you engaged in the musical profession ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I have already refused to answer that question.

Mr. Arex^s. No you haven't. You just said you wouldn't tell us
your specific occupation. Are you a musician ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
I have already given.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question because, as the chairman
has said in the opening statement, just being a musician, as such,
certainly isn't subversive.

Mr. Doyle. You are directed and ordered to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. Are you a musician ?

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer for the reasons previously given.

Mr. Arens. The record, does it not, Mr. Chairman, shows an order?

Mr. Doyle. I think it does.

Mr. ScHEiNER. Isn't it a fact that the purpose of this investigation
is to inquire into subversion and connnumsm amongst nnisicians?
Isn't that the stated purpose of this investigation ?

Mr. Doyle. It is one of the purposes, yes, so stated — the eft'ect of
Communist infiltration in the field of music, with special reference
to that infiltration into the Metropolitan Music School faculty, if any.

Mr. Arens, How long have you enjoyed your present occupation or
been engaged in your present occupation ?

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that (juestion for reasons pre-
viously given.

Mr. Arens. What was youi- occupation immediately prior to your
})resent occupation ?

Mr. ScHWA]{Tz. I decline to answer for the reasons previously given.

Mr. Arens. How long liave you been engaged in your present
occupation ?

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer for the reasons previously given.

Mr. Arens. How long were you engaged in the occupation imme-
diately preceding your present occupation ?

(The witness conferred witli liis counsel.)

720 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Schwartz. I have never given any indication as to whether
I have had another occuj)ation or any occupation, so I decline to
answer that question for the same reasons.

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ?

(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. Schwartz. I was born right here in New York City in 1913.

Mr. Arexs. Where did you go to school ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I will answer that question to the extent that it
has nothing to do with music. I had the usual elementary school edu-
cation, the details of which escape me for the moment. I suppose
I could easily find out. I went to Brooklyn Technical High School.
Then 1 v,ent to Cooper Union Institute of Engineering.

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your courses at Cooper Union
Institute of Engineering ?

Mr. Schwartz. I thinlv possibly 1931 was the end of that phase
of my education.

Mr. Arens. Did you receive a degree there ?

Mr. Schwartz. No, I did not.

Mr. Arens. Have you attended any other institutions or schools?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I must decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. Doyle. You are directed and ordered to answer the question,
Witness.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
already given.

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Schwartz. Excuse me. I am a little confused by the ques-
tion. Would you explain just what you mean by "formal education"
in this sense ? Do you mean continuing a course of study to the point
where you acquire j^our degree or graduate, or do you mean some-
thing else?

Mr. Arens. When did you complete the study which you did engage
in, looking toward a complete education ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I never did complete such an education.

Mr. Arens. What study did you take, other than the study which
you have thus far revealed to the committee ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. It seems to me your questions are pointing in the
direction of whether or not I have had a musical education. Isn't that
right ? If that is so, I must again decline to answer for the reasons
previously given, because I have already declined to indicate what my
occupation is.

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Leonard Cherlin ?

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for i-easons previ-
ously given.

Mr. Arens. Leonard Cherlin yesterday, before this committee, took
an oath ; and Avhile he was under oath, he testified that when he was
a member of the Communist Party he knew you as a Communist.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 721

Now, while you are under oath, tell this committee was Mr. Cherlin
lying or was he telling the truth ?

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for the reasons
previously given.

Mr. Arens. What is your position with reference to the cultural
exchange program between the United States and the Soviet Union ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I am afraid you will have to clarify that for me.
I don't quite understand the gist of the question.

Mr. Arens. Have you taken any position publicly on the cultural
exchange programs ?

( The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for reasons previ-
ously given.

Mr. Arens. I have here a public declaration by a number of people
protesting the sending of a ballet to Franco Spain. That appeared
in the Communist Daily Worker. The date of this Daily Worker
is April 8, 1952.

It bears, according to the article, the signatures of a number of
people, including Frank Schwartz. Kindly look at this document,
as it is displayed to you, and tell this committee whether or not that
refreshes your recollection with reference to your position of sending
the ballet to Spain.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for reasons previ-
ously given.

(Document marked "Schwartz Exhibit No. 3," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 1268 New York Avenue, Brooklyn ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for reasons already
given.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. D()Ti.E. You are directed to answer the question, Mr, Witness.
I believe it is manifest that, for the purpose of identification, as well
as for other reasons, the question is pertinent.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I stand on my previous answer. I decline to answer
for reasons already given.

Mr. Arens. What was your first employment after you had com-
pleted the formal education Avhich you did receive ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for reasons already
given.

Mr. Arens. What was the succeeding employment after your first
employment ?

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for reasons al-
ready given.

Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in any employment during
your adulthood concerning which you can tell this committee with-
out giving information that might be used against you in a criminal
f)roceeding ?

722 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question for reasons al-
ready given.

Mr. Doyle. Counsel, did I not hear the witness volunteer that
about 17 years ago he had taught 2 or 3 or -i students at the Metropoli-
tan Music School ?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir, and I intend to pursue that in just a few
minutes.

Mr. Doyle. I thought that was an occupation.

Mr. ScHEiNER. Am I right that Mr. Arens was asking about some
previous employment and that you are constantly trying to get this
witness either to waive, or l)e entrapped into answering, the question
that he has indicated to you that he doesn't want to answer, and he has
a right not to answer ?

Mr. Arens. We are not intending to entrap him,

Mr. ScHEiNER. You certainly are. He has made it clear to you
that there is a line on which he will not answer. I think that is en-
trapment.

Mr. Arens. Counsel ought to be advised that your sole and ex-
clusive right is to advise your client.

Mr. Sciieiner. I am advising you what my advice is to my client.

Mr. Doyle. We do not want to know what your advice to your
client is. That is your professional secret. We are not interested.
If we had been trying to entrap your witness, Mr. Counsel, we would
not have gone out of our way to inform him what we believe the
law would be. So please confine your remarks to your own client
hereafter.

Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Witness, you told us a little while ago that
you had taught for a brief period at the Metropolitan Music School ;
is that correct?

Mr. Schwartz. Yes.

Mr. Arens. What course did you teach ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mv. Schwartz. I taught no courses. I had two private pupils.

Mr. Arens. What did you teacli the two private pupils?

Mr. Schwartz. This I nuist decline to answer for reasons previously
given.

Mv. Arens. Did you teach them some musical instrument ?

Mr. Schwartz. 1 must decline to answer that for reasons previous-
ly given.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. I order and direct you to answer that question, JNIr.
Witness. You have alread}^ answered it in part. I think the record
will show you gave not more than 2 or 3 lessons on the bassoon.

Mr. Schwartz. I am sorry. May we read the record on tliat ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Doyle. I may be in error, but at any rate I think the record
will show that you testiiied that you had not more than 2 or 3
students in your class.

Mr. Schwartz. May I repeat what I said?

Mr. Doyle. Yes, if you think you can.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 723

Mr. Schwartz. Better still, may I request that that answer may
be read from the record 'i

Mr. Arens. It will be too difficult to read it back now. Many,
many pages have gone by.

You have told us, have you not, that you taught these students
privately, via the Metropolitan Music School ^

Mr. ScirwARTz. Yes, I did. I didn't say 2 or 3; I said 2.

Mr. Arens. You didn't teach them mathematics, did you?

Mr. Schwartz. I must decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the wit-
ness be ordered and directed to answer the question.

]\Ir. Doyle. You are ordered and directed to answer the <iuestion,
]Mr. Witness.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. ScHW^vRTZ. I must decline to answer (liis (luestion lor (he
reasons previously given.

Mr. Arexs. Where was the physical place of the instruction^
Was it at the Metropolitan Music School ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I think it was, but I am not certain,

Mr. Arens. Were you paid by the Metropolitan Music School for
your instruction of these students ?

Mr. Schwartz. I was.

Mr. Arens. And who solicited you to instruct the students?

Mr. Schwartz. I can't remember that.

Mr. Arens. Was it Miss Lilly Popper?

Mr. Schwartz. I can't remember that.

Mr. Arens. You know Lilly Popper, do you not?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I shall decline to answer that question for reasons
previously given, and I must indicate that I wtII continue to decline
to answer any question having to do witli people in the sense that I
have already explained. Shall I read it again ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. So this record may be perfectly clear, because I tliink
this witness is under a misapprehension here — Are you a musician?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Schwartz. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question, I think this is a repe-
tition, but I want the record to be absolutely clear.

Mr. Doyle, Let us have the record clear, I direct and order you
to answer the question.

Mr. Schwartz, We have gone over that ground before ; haven't w^e ?

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff in-
terrogation of this witness.

Mr. Schwartz. I must stand on my previous answer.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Frazier, any questions?

Mr. Frazier. INIr, Schwartz, are you now a member of the Conunu-
ni St Party?

Mr. Schwartz. I must decline to answer that question for the rea-
sons previously given.

Mr. Frazier. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party?

724 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Schwartz. I repeat my answer. I decline to answer for rea-
sons previously given.

Mr, Doyle. Mr. Kearney?

Mr. Kearney. No questions.

Mr. Doyle. Mr. INIcIntosh ?

Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions.

Mr. Doyle. I wish to state this for the benefit of counsel and the
witness. We take the position that this committee of Congress, under
court decisions and under Public Law 601, is under an obligation to
go into the field to see the extent of Communist subversion or Com-
munist infiltration in any area, even including music.

We are not investigating music here, as you well know, and have no
intention so to do. But we do feel that under the law. Public Law 601,
under which we are operating, and as directed by Congress, we are
imder an obligation to investigate the infiltration of subversive com-
munism, even though it is on the part of musicians, in the field of
music, or any other field.

I just want to make that statement for the record again, so that there
will be no misapprehension.

Mr. Kearney. According to the witness' testimony, Mr. Chairman,
we do not know whether he is a musician or not.

Mr. Doyle. At least he was 17 years ago for a few minutes, when
he taught and was paid by the ^letropolitan Music School for those
2 students.

Are there any other questions? If not, the witness is excused at
this time.

Mr. Schwartz. Before I step down, Mr. Chairman

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the next witness
will be Mr. David Walter.

Mr. Schwartz. May I address a question to the chairman ?

Mr. Arens. Mr. Walter, will you please come forward ?

Mr. Doyle. No. The witness is excused.

Mr. Arens. Mr, Walter, please come forward and be sworn.

Mr. ScHEiNER. May the record show that the witness had a request
to make of the chairman, but he has not been given an opportunity ?

Mr. Arens. Kindly raise your hand while the chairman administers
the oath, please.

Mr. Schwartz. May I submit this to you in written form ?

Mr. Doyle. Without any assurance that it will be filed. We are not
going to file anything in the record that we have not had time to con-
sider. I do not see why you could not make your statement when you
were on the stand.

Mr. Schwartz. This has to do with the transcript of the testi-
mony. I would like to have an opportunity to present

Mr. Frazier. You read it time and again ; did you not ?

Mr. Schwartz. No ; I did not.

Mr. Doyle. Hand it to our counsel, then, if it is something involving
the transcript.

Mr. ScHEiNER. You can offer this as — —

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Walter. I do.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 725

TESTIMONY OF DAVID WAITER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
OSMOND K. PRAENKEL

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, address, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Walter. David Walter, 21-35 34tli Avenue, Long Island City,
N.Y.

Mr. Arens. And your occupation ?

Mr. Walter. I am a musician.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Walter, in response to
a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Ajnerican
Activities ?

Mr. Walter. Yes ; I am, sir.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Walter. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Fraenkel. Osmond K. Fraenkel, 120 Broadway, New York 25.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Mr. Walter. I am a free-lance musician, and am employed in very
many places.

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a thumbnail sketch of the prin-
cipal employments you have had over the course of the last year or two.

Mr. Walter. My principal area of employment has been with the
Symphony of the Air, which was the former NBC Toscanini orches-
tra. I have also worked in television as a musician, in individual con-
certs in New York of various types, recordings. This is the general
area of my employment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity?

Mr. Walter. It is difficult to state. I understand, Mr. Arens, that
you have a record that I was listed as an instructor. I never instructed
for the Metropolitan Music School to my knowledge.

Mr. Arens. Then what was your capacity in which you were identi-
fied?

Mr. Walter. I think a proper designation would have been, pos-
sibly, as I have been listening to previous questioning, as sponsor,
perhaps.

Mr. Arens. I would like to invite your attention to the bulletin of
the Metropolitan Music School of 1956-57, in which the name David
Walter appears as a member of the faculty, double bass. Kindly
look at that and see if that refreshes your recollection.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Walter. Yes ; I see this.

Mr. Arens. Is that the first time you were aware of the listing of
yourself as a member of the faculty over the 1956-57 period?

INIr. Walter. Well, to my knowledge, yes. I mean, somebody may
have mentioned it to me, but this is the first time that I laiew for a fact
that it is here.

(Document previously designated "Schwartz Exhibit No. 1," re-
tained in committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a Communist?

726 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, may I be given a few moments to
answer this question, which I will, fully? I think you understand
why.

If you recall, in our meeting in Washington, I discussed this and
did answer it finally. So all I ask is the indulgence of the committee
for a moment.

In answer to the first question, I am not now a Communist. In the
executive session which took place on the 19th of February, I believe
it was, in Washington, I explained that I had reasons for wishing to
decline for various constitutional grounds, to answer the question at
all but that, in the official capacity I had in relation to an organization
I was connected with, there had been an indication to me on the part
of some of our peoj^le there that I should keep an absolutely — let me
correct that, if I may — that I should respond to — I was given a note —
all proper and improper questions of the committee of all sorts.

]\Ir. Arens. You are not suggesting the committee asked you to
respond, are you ?

Mr. Walter. No, I am saying some members of the organization
submitted a note to me.

Mr. Doyle. That is your own organization ?

Mr. Walter. The organization with which I was connected in an
official capacity. It said the board requests its chairman to answer
all proper questions and even improper questions.

I decided out of respect for their opinion in the matter, because cer-
tainly I am not infallible, that I would answer all questions concern-
ing tills organization, the life of which commenced with its incorpora-
tion in August of 1954, and its planning which began in June of 1954.
I will answer your question, Mr. Arens, that since June of 1954,
I have not been a Communist, nor am I one now. I also had at that
time explained, and I will put in the record now, that I will answer
no questions for the period before June of 1954 because of the rights
I have under the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution.

]Mr. Doyle. May I ask this one question? This may clarify it for
all of the committee. I think the paper to which you just referred
as having come to you from your organization instructed you to
answer all questions, proper and improper.

Mr. Walter. Yes, concerning the organization.

Mr. DoYi.E. Concerning the organization.

Mr. Walter. This was not an official document, sir. This was
purely a note jotted by somebody.

Mr. Arens. I hope you are not under the apprehension that this
committee is now launching an investigation of the Symphony of the
Air. We are here to interrogate you as an individual.

Mr. Walter. Have you read my subpena ?

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. I am sorry. You say you are not launching an investi-
gation into — I am sorry ; I missed it.

Mr. Arens. The implication of your instruction from the Sym-
phony of the Air is that we proposed now to interrogate you and
others concerning details of the Symphony of the Air.

Mr. Wai.ter. No, I am sorry. This note was given me at the
time I appeared before General Kearney and Mr. Doyle and yourself

COMMUNISM m METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 727

in Wiisliingtoii. This is not of recent vintage. It goes back a few
months. I just thought you would be interested to know.

Mr. Arens. Do you know people today, this moment, connected
with the Metropolitan Music School or with the Symphony of the
Air who, at aiiy time, have been known by you to be Communists ?

(The witness conferred watli his counsel.)

Mr. Walitsr. As to any period after June of 1954, I have no such
knowledge.

Mr. Arens. I didn't ask you that cjuestion.

Mr. Walter. Would you repeat it, sir? I did lose it.

Mr. Arens. Do you know the name of any person presently con-
nected witli the IMetropolitan Music School or with the Symphony of
the Air who has, at any time, been known by you to have been a
member of the Connnunist Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. Of my knowledge — I am sorry. May I consult?

Mr. Doyle. Yes, indeed.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. I decline to answer that question under the iirst and
fifth amendments of the Constitution.

j\Ir. Arens. What is your present status with the Symphony of
the Air?

Mr. Walter. I am the principal bass and playing member of the
orchestra.

INIr. Arens. Have you ever held an office or post within the Sym-
l)hony of the Air such as a board member or an official in a directive
capacity ?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir ; I have.

Mr. Arens. What post have you held, and when, please?

Mr. Walter. I was a — is this the Symphony of the Air which we
were not launching an investigation into?

Mr. Arens. I w^as just asking you the question, sir, of whether or
not you had ever been an official of the Symphony of the Air?

INIr. Doyle. May I make this clear on the point our counsel is mak-
ing, tliat we are talking about you, and not your organization. It is
your function.

]Mr. Walter. Yes. You asked me what official function I had in
relation to this organization?

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.

Mr. Walter. I have been at one time, for a period of about 2 montlis,
an alternate board member, and I have been for a period of

Mr. Arens. Excuse me. What year was that, please, sir? Was
that in 1954?

Mr. Wali-er. No, sir. It was in 1955, in possibly the month of
February and part of March. I subsequently was elected by the
membership a niemter of the board of directors and subsequently w^as
elected chairman of the board by the board.

Mr. Arens. How long did you serve as chairman of the board,
roughly speaking ?

Mr. Walter. For a period of about 16 months.

Mr. Arens. When did your ])eriod of service as chainnan of the
board of the Symphony of tiie Air terminate?

Ml-. Walter. I am not sure of the exact date. It was approximately
February of this year.

728 coMMUisrisM in metropolitan music school, inc.

Mv. Arens. Were you at any time that you were a director or official
of the Symphony of the Air a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Walter. No, sir ; I wasn't.

Mr. Arens. Did the Symphony of the Air take a trip to the Far
East?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir ; it did.

Mr. Arens, Under whose aus]nees, did it take a trip to the Far East ?

Mr. Walter. I was not an official at that time, Mr. Arens, and my
answer would only be a guess. I don't know firsthand.

Mr. Arens. What is your best judgment?

Mr. Walter. My best recollection is that various United States
agencies were involved in the transportation, the sponsorshi]j, et cetera,
including American National Theater and Academy, the United
States Information Service

Mr. Arens. Did you go on the trip ?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir ; I did.

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you went on the trip ?

Mr. Walter. No, sir ; I wasn't.

Mr. Arens. When did you go on the trip ?

Mr. Walter. We arrived in Tokyo on the 1st of May, I recall, of
1955. We returned approximately the beginning of July.

Mr. Arens. Were there any persons on the trip who were known
by you, at the time of the trip, to liave been members of the Communist
Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. I must decline to answer for the reasons I have given
before, the first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. When was this trip taken ; what year ?

Mr. Walter. I will repeat ; in 1955.

Mr. Arens. Then after the Symphony of the Air returned to the
United States, was it proposed that it take another trip to the Near
East as distinct from the Far East ?

Mr. Walter. I am sorry. Proposed by whom, sir ?

Mr. Arens. By anybody.

Mr. WxVLTER. Many of the men in the orchestra have always pro-
posed that we always take trips. Are you specifically referring to
some individual or agency?

Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting any proposals that
the Symphony of the Air take a trip to the Near East in 1956 ?

Mr. Walter. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Then give us that i nf ormation, please, sir.

Mr. Walter. At least two dozen of our men have constantly been
urging that we return to Japan where we had — by way of the Near
East — where we had a great success, as you, I believe, recall. It was
also suggested by governmental agencies that we might be considered
for a tour, and there Avas a period during which it seemed that such a
tour was imminent.

Mr. Arens. Then what happened to the imminency of this tour?

Mr. Walter. It became nonimminent because of the fact that there
were questions raised concerning the advisability of the tour and the
difficulties of such a tour.

Mr. Arens. Who i-aised those questions ?

Mr. Walter. If j'ou will forgive me for not having a document
here

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 729

Mr. Arens. May 1 ask you, did the cluiirnian of a special coininit-
tee or a siibcoinmittee of the House of Eepresentatives of the United
States Congress raise any (questions 'i

Mr. Walteu. Not abo'ut an imminent tour, that I recall.

Mr. Arens. Were questions raised in the United States Congress
in a subcommittee respecting the Symphony of the Air?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arexs. And what conunittee was that i

Mr. Walter. It was a sulK-ommittee of the House Appropriations
Committee, as I recall.

Mr. Akens. That was tiie Kooney committee, was it not; the so-
called Rooney committee?

Mr. Walter. I am not sure of the name.

Mr. Arens. It was a sulx-ommittee of the Appropriations Com-
mittee. . .

Did the question or issue of communism arise in the so-called
Ivooney committee with reference to the Symphony of the Aii-?

Mr. Walter. No, sir; not in precisely that way.

Mr. Arexs. Then tell us in your own words how it arose.

Mr. Fraexkel. May I be permitted to interject a remark here?

Mr. Arexs. Your sole and exclusive prerogative. Counsel, is to ad-
vise your witness.

Mr. Fraexkel. I understand that, but-

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Witness, do you have information from any source
respecting the issues that were precipitated in the Rooney subcom-
mittee with i-eference to the Sympliony of the Air? That is the out-
standing question.

Mr. Walter. I would like to speak to my counsel.

Mr. Doyle. Go ahead. Take your time.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. I am sorry, Mr. Arens; would you mind repeating it?

Mr. Arexs. Do you have information, and did you have informa-
tion from any source, that in the so-called Rooney hearings the issue
of communism was raised with reference to the Symphony of the
Air?

Mr. Walter. Well, I read about it in the newspapers, among other
sources of information. Yes ; I did have such.

Mr. Arens. You have been sparring with me now on this thing for
about 5 minutes.

Mr. Walter. I am sorry, Mr. Arens, but I don't think that any
answer I have given will show anything but respect for this com-
mittee.

Mr. Arens. I didn't say you were disrespectful. I said you were
sparring with me. Tell me, did you at any time during the Rooney
hearings, or shortly thereafter, obtain information that certain mem-
bers connected with the Symphony of the Air have been or are
Communists ?

Mr. Walter. Yes; I did obtain such information.

Mr. Arens. '\Vliat happened from the standpoint of the Symphony
of the Air trying to divest from the Symphony of tlie Air tliose people,

91198— 57— pt. 1 9

730 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

if any, who may have been Communists who were connected with the
Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. If I untierstand your question, you are asking what
the Symphony of the Air did to divest itself '(

Mr. Arens. Yes. Tell us in your own words what happened after
the Sympliony of the Air had its attention called to the essence of the
Rooney hearings, in whicli a number of people were alleged to have
been Connnunists. What did the Symphony of the Air do about it?

Mr. Walter. We did generally two things. The first is, we sent a
delegation — I \\as a member — to the officials of the State Department
and asked them to give us the record. We asked the State Department
to give us the record of the Kooney connnittee hearings, with names
and all the other information that it had, so that we could take up this
matter proi)erly. It was denied us.

Mr. Arexs. What was tlie status you then occupied with the
Symphony of the Air?

Mr. Walter. I am sorry.

Mr. Arens. What was the status you then occupied with the Sym-
phony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. I was chairman of the board.

Mr. Arens. That was in what year 'I

Mr. Wal'J'er. Specifically, it was in March of 1956.

Mr. Arens. What happened, if anything, within the board of direc-
tors of the Sym])hony of the Air from the standpoint of a resolution to
impose a loyalty oath upon the members of the Symphony of the Air,
or to undertake to disassociate from the Symphony of the Air, Com-
munists ?

Was there any resolution ])roposed along that line?

Mr. Walter. Well, there was a resolution submitted to the board by
members of the organization.

Mr. Arens. Who submitted the resolution ?

Mr. Walter. I don't have that information, but you have the records
which you have subpenaed from our organization.

Mr. Arens. There were a number of people who joined together in
requesting the board to take action ; is that not true ?

Mr. Walter. Yes. You have this record.

Mr. Arens. What was the essence of this request?

Mr. Walit^r. If I remember correctly, the request consisted of 4—3
or 4 — requests. I would respectfully suggest that you

Mr. Arens. I should like to lay before you now, sir, and perhaps it
will refresh your recollection, a photostatic reproduction of a mes-
sage to the board of directors of the Symphony Foundation of Amer-
ica, from a number of people, in which it is requested, among other
things, that an emergency membership meeting, where a loyalty oath
must be presented for signature of the members, be called.

Kindly look at that photostatic reproduction of that document and
tell us whether or not that refreshes your recollection with reference
to the petition which was directed to the board of directors of the
Symphony of the Air, while you were head of that organization.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. What is the question — whether I remember this?

Mr. Arens. Yes. Whether that is the document that was sub-
mitted. Is that a true and correct copy ?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 731

Mr. Walter. Yes. 1 have seen tliis before, 1 believe.

(Document marked "Walter Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arexs. What did the board do pursuant to that message there,
that epistle from the several members'^

Mr. Walter. The Ijoard accepted this for ])resentation to the mem-
bership at its next membership meeting.

Mr. Arexs. Did the board call a meeting?

Mr. Walter. Well, meetings are called automatically by the by-
laws— the provisions for them.

Mr. Arexs. Was there a meeting set up for the purpose of having
action taken pursuant to the request contained in this?

]\Ir. Walter. No, sir. If you will see, it says something about a
special meeting; but the date was in such proximity to our regular
meeting that 1 believe, and 1 am not sure of it, we had the special
and regular meeting at the same time.

Mr. Arex^s. At tJie meeting of the membership to which you now
allude, was the issue brought up as to how the Symphony of the Air
might divest itself of any persons alleged to be Communists?

Mr. Walter. There was an informal discussion due to the fact that
there was no quorum. Many of these people and other people didn't
attend in sufficient numbers, so there was no quorum. There was an
informal discussion, but this specific resolution or suggestion never
came up formally.

Mr. Arexs. Did you preside at the meeting?

^Ir. AValter. I did, su'; yes.

Mr. Arexs. In view of the fact that there wasn't a quorum, was
another meeting called?

Mr. AValter. Yes, sir. The following month's meeting also didn"'*-
have a quorum.

Mr. Arex^s. We are still in 1956, are we ?

Mr. AValter. Yes, sir. AVe would be in about April or May.

Mr. Arexs. Did you preside at the second meeting ?

Mr. AA^ALTER. I suppose so ; yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. AA^as the matter brought up at the second meeting, as
to the allegations of connnunism in the Symphony of the Air?

Mr. AValter. I am only guessing, sir. I don't remember specifi-
cally that it was. I assume it was, because ordinarily the secretary
or some other official would prepare a sort of agenda, and we would
discuss it loosely.

Mr. Arexs. Did the board vote to submit this issue to the mem-
bership i

Mr. AA^ALTER. Yes, sir. AVell, I recollect so, but I am not positive.

Mr. Arexs. AA^'as there a third meeting at which this issue was to be
brought up ? By "this issue" I mean the principal issue we are dis-
cussing of alleged Connnunists in the Symphony of the Air.

Mr. Walter. I don't remember dates now, Mr. Arens, but I believe
we are now into the summer; and during the summer we were, most
of us, out of town.

Mr. Arexs. AVas it ever brought up at a meeting in which there
was a quorum present ?

Mr. AA^alter. As I related to you in AA^ashington, I don't remember
its being brought up ; but I think that it w^as purely — and this is just
speculation on my part and represents my own opinion about it —

732 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

purely oversight, purely a matter of a thing- being tabled for 5 months
and finally getting sort of lost under the table. But I don't believe
there was any deliberate intent.

Mr. Arens. At the two meetings at which quorums were not present,
you presided; did you not?

Mr. Walter. I believe I presided during all meetings in my
incumbency.

Mr. Arexs. Did you speak for the resohition or did you speak
against the resolution at those two meetings?

JNIr. Walter. The resolution did not come u{) in a formal manner.
Since there was an informal discussion, I probably did not partici-
pate, but onlj^ chaired.

Mr. Arens. At the very time that you had this meeting of the
membership of the Sympliony of the Air to discuss the question and
take action on the question of alleged Communists in the Symphony
of the Air, were there present in that very meeting people who, at
any time, were known by you to have been members of the Communist
Party?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

]\Ir. Walter. I decline to answer undei- the first and fifth guaranties
of the Constitution.

Mr. Arens. And you were chairman of the meeting; is that correct?
Mr. Walter. I was, sir ; yes.

]\Ir, Doyle. Mr. Counsel, may I interrupt there? As I understood
it. Witness, you stated you were going to answer questions, whether
proper or improper, subsequent to a certain date in 1954.
Mr. Walter. Slay I reframe my answer, then ?
Mr. Doyle. I think that is what you stated twice. Is that correct?
Mr. Walter. Yes, sir. May I amplify or clarify this answer?
Mr. Doyle. Am I correct that you fixed a date in 1954, after which
you would answer questions, whether they were proper or improper
in your judgment?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir; concerning the foundation. But this ques-
tion reaches to the matter of knowledge which precedes the date of the

foundation, and consequently

Mr. Doyle. This question is directed to a question of fact, in 1956,
2 years after the date you fixed. It is a question of fact of what was
done at that meeting in 1956 that we are questioning. This question
is not prior to 1954. It is a question of your knowledge in 1956.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Doyle. Excuse me for interrupting.

Mr. Arens. I think it helps very much, Mr. Chairman, to clear the
record on that point. I am delighted that you did participate.
Mr. Walter. I am sorry, sir.

Mr. Arens. Would it help you if we go back over the essence of
what we just covered ?

Mr. Fraenkel. May I just violate the rules of the committee for a
moment? This is one of those most difficult situations where the wit-
ness is involved in something that would constitute a waiver of his
privilege. As you know", there is nothing more difficult. I have
tried to advise him how to formulate his answer.

Mr. Arens. I should like to clear the record on several points.
Mr. Fraenkel. If I could make one brief statement, I think it will

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 733

clear this. The witness has pleaded the fifth amendment with respect
to his possible membership in the Communist Party prior to 1954.
He, therefore, must consistently refuse to answer as to knowledge
which he acquired prior to 1954, although that knowledge may have
continued into 1956.

Mr. Arens. Frankly, I agree with you.

Mr. Fr.\enkel. He can, however, state whether or not he had any
knowledge that in 1956 any person present was then a member of the
Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. How could he, if he disassociated himself, or if a fair
implication would be that he disassociated himself from the Commu-
nist Party in 1954 ?

The thing on this record is that we want to be sure that he has an
opportunity, if he wants to do so, to avail himself of the fifth amend-
ment, as of the very time that he was in that meeting which he chaired.
I would like to make this record clear on about three points.

Xo. 1, Mr. Walter, the request from the membership in March 1956
was that the board of directors call an emergency membership meet-
ing to discuss this question of Communists in the Symphony of the
Air ; is that correct ?

Mr. Walter. No, sir; tliat is not correct. That was a request of a
group of members, but not the membership.

Mr. Arens. Of a group of members who submitted the petition.
Twenty -two members submitted a petition.

Mr. Walter. We have 92 in total.

Mr. Arens. And 22 submitted a request tliat an en.iergency meeting
be called ; is that correct ?

Mr, Walter. That is correct,

Mr. Arens. No. 2, the board then decided, did it not, to refer the
issue to the membership ?

Mr. Walter. It did, sir.

Mr. Arens. Not in an emergency, but in the next regular meeting?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. You chaired the next regular meeting, did you not?

Mr. Walter. I did.

Mr. Arens. And you chaired the next succeeding meeting, did you
not?

Mr. Walter. To the best of my recollection, I did.

Mr. Arens. At those 2 next succeeding meetings of the member-
ship of the Symphony of the Air, were there people present in the
room, at that instant, who were to vote on this issue who were known
by you to have bean, at any time, members of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Walter. I decline to answer that under n:iy rights under tiie
first and fifth amendments.

Mr. Arens. You did not speak up for the resolution at any time,
did you ?

Mr. Walter. I neither spoke up for it nor condemned it, sir.

Mr. Arens. Was Elayne Jones connected at any time, to your
knowledge, with the Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. In the most momentary capacity.

Mr. Arens. Tell us about the momentaiy capacity.

Mr. Walter. Our tympanist— his wife had died about a day be-
fore or 2 days befo: ^, a concert. The procedux'e in that case was to

01198— 57— pt. 1 10

734 COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

have, in case of emergencies, to have the personnel manager of the
orchestra find the very best person available and hire them.

I understood, though I had never had firsthand knowledge of it,
that Miss Jones was one of the outstanding tympanists ; and she was
hired by the personnel manager,

Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge, was Elayne Jones ever a
member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Walter. I decline to answer that for the reasons already given.

Mr. Doyle. Counsel, I hesitate to interrupt again, but I do not
want the record to show — and I do not want any possible under-
standing to be arrived at, directly or indirectly by counsel, or any
assumption of the witness or witness' counsel — that this committee is
accepting any limitation in our questions. In other words, this com-
mittee certainly must not, in any way, be considered as accepting this
witness' offer to testify only subsequent to this date in April 1954.

Mr. Arens. I believe he understands that, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Walter. I tried to amplify this, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Doyle. I want the record to be clear. I am sure I have no such
intention, and I am sure no committee member has any such intention.

Mr. Walter. Will you excuse me a moment ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Fraenkel. May I suggest this : That your questions be limited
to the period after 1954 ?

Mr. x\rens. We have been over this before, Counsel.

Mr. Fraenkel. I know we have.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Witness, has Harry Smyles ever been connected
with the Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. Not to my knowledge ; no, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you know Harry Smyles ?

Mr. Walter. Well, yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell this committee whether or not, to your
certain knowledge, Hariy Smyles has ever been a member of the
Coimnunist Party?

Mr. Walter, I will decline to ansAver that for the reasons given
previously.

Mr. Arens. Has Max Pollikoff ever been connected with the Sym-
phony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. If he has, it has been only in the most limited circum-
stances. I don't recall his playing with us, but he may have. We
have, ordinarily, about 34 or 36 violinists, and people get lost,

Mr. Arens. Can jou tell this committee whether or not, to your
certain knowledge. Max Pollikoff' has ever been a member of the Com-
munist Party?

Mr. Walter. I shall decline to answer that for the same reasons
given.

Mr, Arens, Has Max Hollander ever been connected with the Sym-
phony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. Also in a limited capacity, I believe.

Mr. Arens. He is a member, is he not?

Mr, Walter, Yes, but I just explain to clarify this that the Sym-
phony of the Air is a playing organization. It is the orchestra that
was originally formed by the National Broadcasting Co, to be
conducted by Arturo Toscanini; and when it left that capacity, it

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 735

subsequently became the Symphony of the Air. It is run by a foun-
dation called the Symphony Foundation of America, the members of
which are not in all cases players in the orchestra, you see.

Mr. Arens. Now, can you tell this committee whether or not, to
your certain knowledge, Max Hollander has ever been a member of
the Communist Party ?

Mr. Walter. I will decline to answer that.

Mr. Arens. Has Louis Graeler ever been connected with the Sym-
phony of the Air^

Mr. Walter. I decline to answer

Mr. Arens. No; I asked if he had been connected with the Sym-
phony of the Air. You are anticipating me.

Mr. Walit:r. Has Louis Graeler been a member of the Symphony
of the Air ?

Mr. Arens. Been connected with it, and, if so, in what capacity?

Mr. Walter. Yes ; he is a violinist.

Mr. Arens. To your knowledge, has Louis Graeler ever been a
member of the Communist Party 'i

Mr. Walter. I will decline to answer that.

Mr. Arens. Was Louis Graeler ever present at some of these meet-
ings where the question was supposed to be brought up to the mem-
bership about communism in the Symphony of tlie Air?

Mr. Walter. I have no way of knowing. We didn't keep attend-
ance records.

Mr. Arens. Sterling Hunkins, has he been connected with the
Symphony of the Air?

Mr. Walter. I believe he played 2 or 3 times with us. I am not
certain of that.

Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge, has Sterling Hunkins ever
been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Walter. I decline to answer for the reasons given.

Mr. Arens. Elias Carmen, has he ever been connected with the
Symphony of the Air?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. Walter. He is the principal bassoonist and one of the greatest
in the world.

Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge, has Elias Carmen ever
been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. Walter. I must decline for the reasons I have given before.

Mr. Arens. George Koukly, has he ever been connected with the
Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. I believe he may have substituted at one time or an-
other, perhaps no more than 2 times or ?> times, but I am not sure.

Mr. Arens. To your certain knowledge, has George Koukly ever
been a member of tlie Communist Party ?

Mr. Walter. I shall decline to answer that for the reasons given.

Mr. Arens. David Freed, has he ever been connected with the
Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. May I answer tliat in just a moment, and just giA'e
one sentence of clarification to the gentleman tliere ?

Mr. Arens. Surely.

Mr. Walter. As you may know, we are like philharmonics— Phil-
adelphia and Boston and the other three major orchestras in this

736 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

country — and are not set up on a year-round basis, but are what are
called free-lance orchestras. Therefore, because of many of the com-
mitments that some of our people have made for solo appearances, in
previous periods, sometimes they couldn't appear at concerts; and
so, in some periods, the incidents of substitutes would be more so
than would be the case in some of these other orchestras. I just men-
tion this for why you find substitutes in a symphony orchestra.
Usually it was 2 or 3 or 4 times in a period of a year.

Mr. Arens. And next is David Freed.

Mr. Walter. I believe he played with us a few times. I don't recall
how many.

Mr. Arens. To your knowledge, was he ever a member of the Com-
munist Party?

Mr. Walter. I shall decline to answer that for the previous reasons.

Mr. Arens. Benjamin Steinberg, was he ever a member of the
Symphony of the Air or ever identified with it or connected with it?

Mr. Walter. He was not a member, but I believe he did substitute
at one time.

Mr. Arens. Was he, to your certain knowledge, ever a Communist?

Mr. Walter. I shall decline to answer for the reasons given,

Mr. Arens. Tell the committee what you had to do with lining up
these substitutes and with designating the people who did serve on the
Symphony of the Air.

i\Ir. Walter. I shall be happy to do so, sir. In my capacity as chair-
niiin of a coo])erative organizatiou, T found the pressures, lioth from
circumshnices ;ind |)eople, of such inngnihid*! that I de<"i(]pd at the
\erv first instance that I would hoAe no part of the picture which we
called our personnel picture, I, therefore, did not serve on the per-
sonnel committee nor attend personnel meetings, I did not recom-
mend or hire people. I did not even participate in the discussion of
what has come to be known as our master list, which contains the names
of people who are members and available substitutes, except in the
area recently where I recommended some bass players in case we had
emergencies. That was in my capacity not as chairman, but as the
principal bass player.

Mr, Arens. Who is William Dorn ?

Mr. Walter. A musician, a drummer, a member, in the past, of the
orchestra.

Mr. Ah:::ns. Do you recall William Dorn — and I say immediately,,
3/Ir'. Chairniaii, for the purpose of this record,^ that we have no informa-
tion that reflects at all unfavorably upon this gentleman — do 3^011 re-
call that William Dorn submitted to the group of the Symphony of the
Air a resolution ;

Resolved, That "The Symphony of the Air" or its officers shall not suffer a
known Communist, Nazist, or Fascist to be a member of our Orchestra. Regis-
tration in the Communist, Nazist or Fascist party or membership in Com-
munist "Front" organizations shall be deemed sufficient eau.se for the explusion
of any member —

And so forth.

Do you recall a lesolution which Mr, William Dorn submitted to that
effect to the Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir. I had an active part in making sure that
got into that newsletter that you have there.

CORIMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 737

(Document marked "Walter Exliibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee file.)

Mr. Arens. Did you support William Dorn's resolution ?

Mr. Walter. Will you excuse me a moment ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. No, sir, I didn't support this resolution because it ran
counter to all the philosophy, all the thinking that I had been trained
in as a musician.

I had, as you know, I think, Mr. Arens, played for Mr. Toscanini
as an individual and had been hired for the orchestra. No questions
were asked me. I thought that the proper agencies to deal with the
realms of membership in such organizations were, in most cases, best
governmental agencies rather than individual committees set up
within each individual organization.

I felt that it violated a whole precept that we have lived under as
musicians, namely, that you are chosen to play artistically in America
for your artistic integrity and artistic ability, rather than for any
other consideration. I am happy to see that in almost every area in
our field of music, and especially concert music, this has obtained.
People of the greatest artistry, the Heifetzs, tlie Rubinsteins, and so
on, have always won acclaim ; and they have never been questioned as
to their politics. We, in our orchestra, felt the same way about it.

Mr. Areis's. Would you engage, or would you take the same position
with reference to, a person who was a known murderer?

Mr. Walter. I would take a position that the courts should get
after him, sir.

Mr. Arens. Would you engage, or would you permit to be in your
Symphony of the Air, a person who was a known j)sycopathic ar-
sonist ?

Mr. Walter. I could only know such information on the basis of
what they had done, sir.

Mr. Arens. The resolution calls for the expulsion from the Sym-
phony of the Air of persons who are known Communists. If a person
had been identified in public session by witnesses under oath, or had
been identified as a known Communist in a trial, such as the trial here
at Foley Square of the 11 Communists, would you then have taken a
position that they should not be engaged in the Symphony of the Air?

(At this point Representative Bernard W. Kearney left the hear-
ing room.)

Mr. AValter. I really haven't come very far from the puzzlement
which struck me when I was asked the same question in Washington,
Mr. Arens. The thinking is so completely foreign to me, when one
asks a political question of a performing musician, that I don't know
how to answer the question.

Mr. Arens. If communism and the Communist Party is only a
party of political activity, did you ever disassociate yourself from a
political party ?

Mr. Walter. I don't understand the question.

Mr. Arens. You take the position now that the Communist Party
is a matter of politics, of political activity. Some of us feel it is a
matter of a conspiratorial apparatus. But if you take the position
that the Communist Party is only a political party — and that a Com-
munist is only one who entertains certain political ideas — if you as-

738 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

sume that position, then tell us whether or not you are a member of
the innocent political organization known as the Communist Party.

(At this point Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., left the hearing
room.)

Mr. Walter. Could we have the question back? It was a long
one.

Mr. Aeens. You take the position here, apparently, that you would
not support the resolution of INIr. Dorn to expel Communists, known
Communists, from the Symphony of the Air because that is a matter
of political belief; isn't' that correct? That is the essence of your
position?

(At this point, Re])resentatives James B. Frazier, Jr., and Bernard
W. Kearney returned to the hearing room.)

Mr. Walter. I am a little tired, I guess. Did you ask me if that
was my position ?

Mr. Arexs. Yes. Is that your position ?

Mr. Walter. I am sorry, but you said of opposition to the resolu-
tion or of support for the resolution?

Mr. Arens. Was that your position — that you could not support
Mr. Dorn's resolution because a Communist is just a person with a
political belief, political philosophy?

Mr. Walter. No, sir. You are oversimplifying my position. My
l)osition is simply that we have never asked, and would have no
knowledge of it and that if tliere were such knowledge, the matter
would be taken out of our hands by courts or other agencies equipped
to deal with this.

Mr. Arens. Let's just probe that for a moment. Let us assume for
the sake of clarification here that a particular individual is identified
in the court, in a trial, as a Communist and is convicted as a Com-
munist. Would you then advocate or oppose his membership in the
Symphony of the Air?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, I don't know what the rules of p)roce-
dure are concerning hypothetical questions, but I can't see this as a real
situation.

Mr. Arens. You opened the door. You said you could not support
the Dorn resolution because you said that it went into a question of a
man's politics. The Dorn resolution called for the expulsion of known
Communists.

Mr. Walter. You are equating that, Mr. Arens, to mean something
on political parties, on w^hich I am not an expert.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. I think you understand what I mean.

Mr. Doyle. May I suggest to the witness, too, because you used
my name in connection with j^our answer a few minut«s ago^ •

JNIr. Walter. With no disrespect, sir.

Mr. Doyle. I know that. But I remember, as you do, and you
called it to our attention here, that you were asked this same question
a couple of months ago. I call that to your attention because today,
a few minutes ago, you said that it was something that you had not
thought about. You were asked the question a couple of months ago,
the same question. Certainl}^ you have thought about it in the last
2 months. At least I hope you have.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 739

Mr. Walter. May I state, Mr. Doyle, that I sent Congressman
Walter a telegram asking if I could examine the testimony, and I
have received no answer. I thought I had a right to see that. I am
still in a state of puzzlement.

Mr. Doyle. I would think after the executive session, when the
questions were asked of you, even as a high-class musician, that you
would certainly have thought about them in the interim.

Mr. Fraenkel. May I again state, to get out of my |)ropei- function,
that I think the committee is going far afield here.

Mr. Doyle. Counsel, we cannot accept the premise that, because
a man is a musician, he is excused from complying with Federal
statutes. In other words, we cannot accept the theory of this witness
that the musical field, in which he is engaged, has never yet, accord-
ing to Mm, or at least he has never, accepted the responsibility because
he is a musician. We cannot accept that premise, because if we
accepted his premise, we would have no internal security.

Mr. Fraenkel. The Federal statute does not say that a Communist
may not play in an orchestra.

Mr. Doyle. We know that.

Mr. Arens. But this resolution was trying to get the Communists
out of the orchestra ; and that is the issue, Counsel, as you well know.

Now, jNIr. Walter, you have said, in effect, have you not, that you
opposed the Dorn resolution because it dealt with the question of a
man's political belief, isn't that correct ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. Yes, among other things. Yes. There were other
parts to that resolution, if I recall.

Mr. Arexs. Would you, as chairman of the board of the Symphony
of the Air, oppose the employment of a musician if that person had
been identified as, and known by you to have been, a Communist?

Mr. Walter. I have already answered that, Mr. Arens, when I indi-
cated that, as chairman, I had nothing to do with hiring

Mr. Arexs. I didn't ask you that question, and you are being-
evasive. Would you have opposed, or would you have favored, the
employment of a Communist in the Symphony of the Air?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. Excuse me, sir.

(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. It is true the question never came up.

Mr. Arexs. All right. It did come up in the resolution. Did you,
at the time the resolution Avas presented, favor tlie resolution which
would have caused the expulsion of Communists, known Communists,
from the Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Fraexkel. The witness has twice said he didn't.

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir. I have answered that, haven't I? I said
I opposed the resolution, but I wanted the record to indicate that I
thought it should be submitted to the members.

Mr. Arexs. Did you ever submit the resolution to the members?

Mr. Walter. It is in writing. A copy of that went to every
member.

Mr. Arexs. Xo, I say did you submit the resolution to the members
for a vote when you were chairman of the meetings?

740 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Walter. As to that, I beg you to go to the minutes of the meet-
ings, because I don't recall.

Mr. Doyle. You stated that it was finally lost under the table.

Mr. Walter. No, sir ; that is not the same resolution.

Mr. Arexs. Did the membership ever vote on the question of ex-
pelling Communists from the Symphony of the Air?

Mr. Walter. Not to my recollection, sir.

Mr. Arexs. What is your present position on communism?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, I looked througli a copy of the Rules
of Procedure which was given me, under which this committee op-
erates; and at one point, it said the committee seeks factual testimony
Avithin the personal knowledge of the witness. By no stretch of my
knowledge, can I think that my very inexpert opinion on political
matters or even governmental or other such civic matters, can be

^Ir. Arens. I am not asking you about govermnental matters. 1
am asking 3'ou about a conspiracy called the Connnunist Party. I
am asking you what is your present position on connnunism — do you
favor it or oppose it ?

Mr. Walter. I shall oti'er no answer to that.

Mr. Arexs. The courts have repeatedly stated that the state of a
man's mind is as much a fact as the state of his digestion.

Mr. Fraexkel. That becomes true only in relation to certain acts
which are not here in question.

Mr. Arexs. What is your present position on communism ?

Mr. Walter. The same answer as I just gave to the same question,
sir.

Mr. Arens. What was your position on comnnmivSm as of the time
you were chairman of the board of Symphony of the Air, and a
number of people had been accused or had been alleged to have been
Conmumists in that organization ? What was your position then on
communism ? Were you opposed to it or were you for it ?

Mr. Walter. I must give the same answer.

^Ir. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to ansAver that question.

Mr. Walter. And I appeal to the chairman, before he directs irie
to answer this, to educate me perhaps as to the meaning of the words
in the procedure.

Mr. Doyle. Certainly you, as a leader of a great musical organiza-
tion— and I am talking to you now as an individual — you happened
to be at that time the leader of a great musical organization in our
Nation. We are investigating here you, as an individual, the extent
to which you were a Communist ; and you certainly were up to a cer-
tain time

Mr. Walter. How can you say that ?

Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. Well, I will withdraw that statement,
because my memory is not clear on what I learned from this witness
previously. For the present, I will withdraw that statement. But
you were, at least, the leader of a great musical organization. We
know that, as a matter of fact, some members of your organization
were Communists. We certainly are pertinent in our question when

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 741

we ask you the extent to which communism was known to you to be
existent in that orchestra, of which you were chairman.

Also, 3^our position on communism is pertinent, we believe, because
you were chairman of the organization. That may lead into the ques-
tion of whether or not you were a Communist at that time. If you
were, it is further evidence of the extent to which communism was
inhltrating this great musical organization, if you were a Communist.

AVe have several members of your organization identified as Com-
munists, as you know. I believe it is entirely pertinent. I instruct
you to answer. It is right under the text of Public Law 601 where
we are challenged to go into the extent to which subversive activities
exist in any organization. We are not investigating your orchestra;
we are investigating you, as to what you think, wliat you were.

(At tliis point Representative Bernard W. Kearney left the hear-
ing room.)

Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, to the extent that you said I should
have been interested in subversive activities in my organization, not
only weren't there any to my knowledge, but the record that was
achieved for this country, both abroad and at home, was tremendous ;
and I offered to show it to you in Washington, and you seemed to
be rather disinterested at that time. We have received commenda-
tions from every government in the world that the Government has
friendship with.

Mr. Doyle. I was not tit all disinterested. But when the Rooney
Appropriations Subcommittee turned you down on a second trip to
the Far East and related that you were Communists

Mr. Walter. Xo, sir; that is not accurate.

Mr. Doyle. Well, when the Rooney committee called your attention
to the fact that it was believed that there were active Communists in
your organization, of which you were chairman, you certainly then
w^ere challenged with being interested in whether or not you had
active members in your orchestra as Communists.

(At this point Representative Bernard W. Kearney returned to
the hearing room.)

]Mr. Walter. May I state for tlie record that the State Department,
which idtimately covered the funds for our initial tour and which was
going to help with the second tour, made the public statements — and
also it exists in many letters sent to individuals — that no charges were
made by them against the orchestra and that the reason for the can-
cellation of the second tour was threefold — the evidence of some fric-
tion within the orchestra, documented in the Rooney transcript; the
evidence of war tensions in the Near East; and the evidence of
difficulty in booking in India.

Mr. Doyle. And yet you went down to Washington and asked the
State Department to give you the list of the known Communists in
your orchestra?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir; and we were refused because they said it
wasn't pertinent. The reason for the cancellation of the tour had
nothing to do with charges against the orchestra.

Mr. Arexs. William Dorn, who introduced this resolution to oust
Connnunists from the Symphony of the Air, did he receive any em-
])loyment with the Symphony of the Air after he introduced his
resolution ?

Mr. Walter. I don't knoAv the date of the resolution, sir.

742 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. Irrespective of the date of the resolution, did he receive
any employment with the Symphony of the Air after he proposed the
resolution to throw the Reds out of the Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. If you could tell me the date, I could answer the
question.

Mr. McIntosh. While you are looking the date up, could we pur-
sue the answer to the question that tlie witness was directed to answer
before this colloquy started as to his present feeling?

Mr. Fraenkel. He refused to answer.

Mr. McIntosh. On what grounds ?

Mr. Fraenkel. The first amendment and irrelevance.

Mr. Walter. I do not recall.

Mr. Fraenkel. You were directed to answer the question as to
what your present opinion about communism was.

Mr. Walter. Yes, and I thought it was irrelevant, and I i-efused to
answer it because of my lack of expert knowledge.

Mr. DoTLE. And I instructed you to answer the question. So that
the record will be clear, I again instruct you to answer that question.
So that you will have a clear understanding, I told you that I be-
lieved it was pertinent and relevant.

Mr. Walter. Mr. Chairman, may I have the question repeated ?

Mr. Arens. Wliat is your position on communism ? Are you for it
or against it?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Walter. What is the question ?

Mr. Arens. "Wliat is your present position on connnunism ?

Mr. Walter. I refuse to answer that question because I think it is
irrelevant, and I think the first amendment of the Constitution pro-
tects me from answering that question.

Mr. Arens. You are not invoking the fifth amendment on that ques-
tion, is that correct ?

Mr. Fraenkel. That is right. He has denied present membership
in the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. You are not invoking the fifth amendment ?

Mr. Walter. No, sir; I am not invoking the fifth amendment. I
see no reason for it.

Mr. Arens. What happened to William Dorn,^ from the standpoint
of further employment with the Symphony of the Air, when he in-
troduced in August 1956, his resolution to throw the Communists out
of the Symphony of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. Now, I know the date. Actually, the resolution was
submitted some time before that; and lie continued to be employed
with the orchestra until the end of the summer that year. His em-
ployment was discontinued subsequently for matters which I coidd
only discuss at the risk of professional repercussions to myself.

I must explain to the committee that musicians within the frame-
work of our union are not allowed to discuss artistic opinions about
other persons. However, it was the consensus of management officials
and otliers that there should have been some artistic adjustment with-
in our orchestra ; and as a result of that, and for no other reason, Mr.
Dorii's employment was discontinued.

JSIr. Doyle. How long had he been a member of the orchestra prior
to the time you discontinued him ?

1 See footnote, p. 744,

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 743

Mr. Walter. From the inception, which was October of 1954. He
had previously played for a few years, to my recollection, with the
Toscanini Orchestra.

Mr. Doyle. In other words, he was on the orchestra, active for 2
years, and shortly after he introduced this resolution, he was discon-
tinued. It took you a long- time to discover the need of some artistic
adjustment.

Mr. Walter. It was not discovered by us. It was discovered by
many conductors and management officials that worked with us. If
there were a trial procedure here, I could prove to you exactly what
was the reason.

Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Don Gill is at one time president of the or-
chestra ?

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir ; he was.

Mr. Arens. And did he in 1955, just before the orchestra departed
for its tour, make a speech in which he condemned Communists and
communism and said they ought to be thrown out of the orchestra?

]\Ir. Walter. I don't recall that of my knowledge, sir.

Mr. Arens. "Wliat happened to Don Gillis ?

Mr. Walter. Don was a dear friend of mine and a dear friend
of the orchestra's. He served it nobly and very well, I thought.
There was a situation which arose, which I learned afterw^ard more
about. It is the situation that exists when people who are not experts
in the field — specifically in this field, musicians running a corpora-
tion and foundation — begin to get on each other's nerves, begin to
interfere with each other; and there was a difficulty in assessing
responsibility in administration, division of tasks, and so on. Mr.
Gillis subsequently resigned at the end of the foreign tour. He had
announced his resignation some months previously.

Mr. Arens. Did he resign under pressure?

Mr. Walter. None that I know of, sir; but I was not a member
of the board at that time, and I don't know.

Mr. Arens. Was there a person by the nauie of Valerie Tisliava
who was a secretary in the administration of the Symphony of the
Air?

Mr. Walter. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Wliat Avas her position on communism in the Symphony
of the Air ?

Mr. Walter. I honestly don't know, sir. T never discussed it with
her.

Mr. Arens. Did she ever suggest at various times that tlie Com-
munists ought to be cleaned out of the Symphony of the Air?

Mr. Walter. Not to me, sir.

Mr. Arens. What happened to Valerie Tisliava ?

Mr. Walter. Miss Tisliava, to use a less than fancy w^ord — Miss
Tisliava left our employment in approximately June of 1956.

Mr. Arens. Was that a forced departure ?

Mr. Walter. It was forced, but not because of any personal con-
siderations, but because of our need for bookkeeping and secretarial
ability. She was generally quite competent as a secretarial worker
and was very efficient on the telei)hone and so on. We had a need,
however, for more specialized abilities within the office. There was
also a conflict of personalities, based on nothing more than that be-
tween her and 1 or 2 people in the office.

744 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. Was Samuel Borodkin ^ identified in any capacity with
the orchestra ?

Mr. Walter. Yes. He was, like Mr. Dorn, a drummer in the
orchestra.

Mr, Arens. Was he vigorously anti-Comnmnist in his position
within the orchestra ?

Mr. Walter. He may have been. I never discussed it with him.

Mr. Arens. What happened to Mv. Borodkin?

Mr. Walter, Mr. Borodkin suffered the same fate as Mr. Dorn,^
namely, there were substantial — and I am under oath when I tell you
this, and I know all these things to be true — there were substantial
complaints in many areas of our activities as playing musicians,
whei-e there were complaints made about these people. I made no such
complaints because I was not involved in the personnel or artistic
directorsliip, but such complaints were made by conductors and by
management officials, as a result of which these people were separated
from the orchestra. These weren't the only two people, by the way,
sir.

Mr. Doyle. How many years had this last named gentleman played
with the orchestra before he was let out after he protested against
Communists in the orchestra?

Mr. Fraenkel. The witness has already said that he didn't know
whether this man protested about Communists.

Mr. Doyle. How long had he played with the orchestra before he
was let out ? Let us put it that way.

Mr, Walter, From shortly after — well, excuse me. I remember
roughly it was probably about a year and a half. He was brought into
membership at the suggestion of Mr. Gillis.

Mr, Arens, And he played for Toscanini, too, did he not?

Mr. Walter. As what we used to call an extra man. That is, not
a regular man, Mv. Doyle, might you be interested to know how many
other people were also discontinued for artistic reasons; how many
retired ?

]\Ir. Doyle. I question that these people were dismissed for artistic
I'easons. I question it very much. You weren't able to get, and you
didn't get together, a quorum of that orchestra to ever consider this
matter. You stated that the quorum wasn't present for three meetings.

Mr, Walter. Tliat is not my fault, sir.

Mr, D0YI.E, You say it is not your fault, but it was evidently a con-
sidered plan so that you could not have a legal quorum present,

Mv. Walter, On the contrary, sir, the very people who signed the
resolution did not show up to support it at the meeting.

Mr. Doyle. I undei'stand that, but it was an internal situation that
Avas not good ; and on the basis of this resolution, you should have
considered it and should have had a qualified meeting and should have
done something about it.

jNIr. Walter. I can say nothing more than that I agree with you.

Mr. Doyle. Well, why do you not do it now? I invite you to. Go
to it and do your job by your Nation. If you have a bunch of Com-
mies in your orchestra, do not try to except musicians from being dis-
ciplined. They should be treated just like anybody else. If they are

^Subsequent to the hearings, the committee received copies of letters addressed to Mr.
Dorn and Mr. Borodkin by the Symphony of the Air refuting the testimony of Mr. David
Walter concerning charges of their lack of artistic ability. (See pp. 760 (1), 760 (2),
and 760 (3).

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 745

Communists, they ought to be revealed as such in our book. No matter
who they are. Why do you not go ahead and see that there is a
quormn meeting there, and consider this resohition ?

Mr. Walter. I personally have attended every meeting of this
organization, sir,

Mr. Doyle. Why do you not get enougli members to do the same
thing and take it up, instead of putting it under the table ?

Mr. Walter. I am not in a position to do it. I am not a member
of the board, as you know.

Mr. Doyle. Music is too important a feature in our national life
to have very much of it in the hands of people who are disloyal to
our form of government.

Mr. Walter. Yes, sir. I wish that you would consider this docu-
ment which states that we did an A-1 job for this Govermnent,
rather than the imputation that you make that there was anything
wrong with the service to the Government.

Mr. Doyle. I am not imputing that. I am saying, however, that
I think the record shows that there was not due attention given to
this Dorn resolution. That is what I am saying. I want you to
know that we are deliberately cutting this examination of you short be-
cause you have an important professional engagement this afternoon.

Mr. Walter. I appreciate that, and I want to thank the com-
mittee for that.

Mr. Doyle. The committee will now recess and reconvene at 2 p. m.
this afternoon.

Those witnesses under subpena who were not called this morning
will report back to this room at that time.

(Whereupon, at 12:40 p. m. Wednesday, April 10, 1957, the sub-
conunittee recessed, to reconvene at 2 p. m. the same day. Present
at recess: Representatives Clyde Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., Ber-
nard W. Kearney and Robert J. Mcintosh.)

AFTERNOON SESSION— WEDNESDAY, APRIL 10, 1957

The subconunittee reconvened at 2 p. m., Hon. Clyde Doyle, pre-
siding. Present at reconvening: Representatives Clyde Doyle,
James B. Frazier, Jr., Beiniard AY. Kearney, and Robert J. Mcintosh.

Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order. Let the
record show that Committee Members Frazier, Kearney, Mcintosh,
and Doyle are present, i of the 5 members of the subcommittee. A
quorum is present and we will proceed.

Mr. Arens. Elayne Jones, kindly come forward.

Mr. Doyle. Do yon solemnly swear that you will tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss Jones. I do.

TESTIMONY OP ELAYNE JONES (KAUFMAN), ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, MORTON FRIEDMAN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.

Miss Jones. Elayne Jones, 112-30 Farmers Boulevard, St. Albans,
N.Y.

746 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing here today in response to a sub-
pena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?

Miss Jones. That is right.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?

Miss Jones. I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Friedman. Morton Friedman, 16816 Liberty Avenue.

Mr. Arens. Do you have a name other than the name Elayne Jones ?

Miss Jones. I have. Ehiyne Kaufman.

Mr. Arens. Will you keep your voice up, please ?

Miss Jones. Yes. Elayne Kaufman.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?

Miss Jones. I am unemployed at present.

Mr. Arens. Where were you last employed ?

Miss Jones. The last job I had was — do you want the date or just
the job I had?

Mr. Arens. Tell us just the job you had first, please.

Miss Jones. Well, I played City Center.

Mr. Arens. ^Ylmt did you play at City Center?

Miss Jones. In the orchestra.

]\ir. Arens. What instrument did you play ?

Miss Jones. Tympani.

Mr. Arens. When was that; in the last year?

IVIiss Jones. No. It was about 2 or 3 weeks ago.

Mr. Arens. You are a professional musician ?

Miss Jones. I hope so. I consider myself so.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected witli the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Miss Jones. I have.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

JSIiss Jones. Well, sort of nebulous. I am supposed to be an in-
structor.

Mr. Arens. Were you an instructor ?

Miss Jones. I never had any students.

Mr. Arens. Were you listed as a member of the faculty ?

Miss Jones. Yes ; I was.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you listed as a member
of the faculty ?

Miss Jones. I can't remember how long.

Mr. Arens. Well, were you listed as long as 4 or 5 years ?

Miss Jones. Probably.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently listed as a member of the faculty ?

Miss Jones. I think I am.

Mr. Arens. For how long have you been listed as a member of the
faculty ? You say you are presently listed as a member.

Miss Jones. That is what I said. I can't remember how long.

Mr. Arens. Were you listed as a member of the faculty as far back
as 1950?

(The witness conferred with her comisel.)

Miss Jones. Well, if according to your records I have been listed,
then I have been.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Symphony of
the Air?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 747

Miss Jones. What do you mean by "connected" ?

Mr. Arens. In any capacity ? Have you played on the Symphony
of the Air? Have you been a member of the orchestra? Have you
been working for them in any capacity ?

Miss Jones. There is a difference. You can be a member or you
can play. I played once for them.

Mr. Akens. Are you on the persomiel list of the Symphony of the
Air?

Miss Jones. What do you mean by the "list" ?

Mr. Arens. The list of personnel approved to play on the
orchestra.

Miss Jones. I don't know.

Mr. Arens. When did you play for the Symphony of the Air?

Miss Jones. Last year. No. Yes ; it was last year.

Mr. Arens. Where did you play for the Symphony of the Air ?

Miss Jones. At Carnegie Hall.

Mr. Arens. Who engaged you to play at the Symphony of the Air ?

Miss Jones. Philip Sklar, the late Philip Sklar.

Mr. Arens. Have you played the New York City Opera
Orchestra ?

Miss Jones. Yes ; I have.

Mr. Arens. When was that ?

Miss Jones. The last time I played there ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Miss Jones. It was just the job I did a couple of weeks ago.

Mr. Arens. Over what course of time have you played the New
York City Opera Orchestra ?

Miss Jones. Since 1949.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party ?

Miss Jones. I decline to answer.

Mr. Arens. Why?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Jones. I would like to read my statement, please.

I refuse to answer the question on the ground tliat it has no proper
legislative purpose, nor has this entire investigation of musicians
any proper legislative purpose. It is impossible for there to be any-
thing un-American about various forms of music or in any way in
which it is played or by whom it is played.

Furthermore, the question isn't proper in that it has no relevance to
the subject matter under investigation. I refuse to answer the
question on the further grounds that it violates my constitutional
rights of freedom of association, of conscience, freedom of thought,
and, furthermore, because no person may be required to be a witness
against himself.

Mr. Arens. Did you write that or did someone else write it ?

Miss Jones. I wrote that with the help of my counsel.

Mr. Arens. Are j^ou now a Communist ?

Miss Jones. I refuse to answer it on the same grounds I have just
outlined to you.

Mr. Arens. Are you connected, or have you been connected, in any
capacity with Camp Unity ?

Miss Jones. No, I am not, sir.

74S COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

iNIr. Arexs. Have you ever been on the social statf of Camp Unity?

( The witness conferred with her counseL )

Miss JoxES. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. We will display to you now, if you please, a thermofax
reproduction of the Communist Daily Worker of June 15, 1951, in
which your name appears in the publication as a member of the social
staff of Camp Unity.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, while the witness is examining the docu-
ment, I respectfully suggest that the record at this point reflect the
citation of Camp Unity contained in the Guide to Subversive Organi-
zations by this committee.

Mr. Doyle. Very well.

Camp Unity ( Wingdale, N. Y. )

1. Cited as a * * * "notorious Communist rendezvous" * * *. {Committee on
Un-American Activities, Annual Report for 1955, H. R. 1648, January 17, 1956,
originally released January 11, 1956, pp. 9 and 10.)

Mr. Arens. Does that exhibit refresh your recollection with ref-
erence to your connection with Camp Unity ?

Miss Jones. Yes ; it does.

Mr. Arens. You say, "Yes ; it does" 'I

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Jones. I don't understand.

Mr. Arens. Does this exhibit prompt your recollection with ref-
erence to your connection with Camp Unity ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

INIiss Jones. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds as
I stated before.

(Document marked "Jones Exhibit No. 1," and retained in committee
files.)

]Mr. Arens. Do you occasionally entertain under the auspices of the
Jefferson School of Social Science ?

(The witness conferred with her counsel. )

Miss Jones. I refuse to answer that question.

Mr. Arens. We exhibit to you now a thermofax reproduction of a
bulletin, the face slieet of a bulletin, of the Jefferson School of Social
Science listing you as one of the entertainers on the program given on
the evening of March 10, 1951.

Would 3'ou kindly look at that and see if that refreshes your recol-
lection with reference to your connection with that activity or enter-
prise ?

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss Jones. What would you like to loiow ?

Mr. Arens. Does this exhibit refresh your recollection with refer-
ence to your participation as an entertainer under the auspices of the
Jefferson School of Social Science?

Miss Jones. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.

( Document previously identified as "Smyles Exhibit No. 3," retained
in committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Do you recall any connection you may have had with
the New York Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions?

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 749

Miss Jones. Xo; I don't remember.

Mr. Arexs. "We lay before you now a call to a conference mider the
auspices of the Xew York Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Pro-
fessions on which your name appears as one of those sending out the
call, Miss Elayne V. Jones.

Kindl}' look at this document, while it is displayed to you, and see
if you can't help this committee as to whether or not it refreshes your
recollection as to any connection you may have had with that organ-
ization.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with her counsel.)

Miss JoxES. On that I refuse to answer on the same grounds.

(Document marked "Jones Exhibit Xo. 2'* and retained in Com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you been one of the sponsors of the National
Committee to Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case ?

Miss Jones. Xot that I know of, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you recall attending a rally of the Xational Com-
mittee to Secure Justice for the Rosenbergs in the fall of 1953 ?

Miss Jones. Where was that held at?

Mr. Arens. In the Tri-Borough Stadium on Randall's Island.

Miss Jones. I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Doyle. If there are no questions from members of the subcom-
mittee, the witness is excused.

Call your next witness.

Mr. Arens. Sam Morgenstern.

Mr. Doyle. Do you solenmly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Morgenstern. Tliank you.

TESTIMONY OF SAM MORGENSTEEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LEONARD B. BOUDIN

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Morgenstern. Sam Morgenstern, 40 Horatio Street ; musician.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Morgenstern, in response
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?

Mr. Morgenstern. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel?

Mr. Morgenstern. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. BouDiN. Leonard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, ]Mr. Morgenstern?

Mr. Morgenstern. I am self-employed.

Mr. Arens. AMiere?

Mr. Morgenstern. At my address.

]VIr. Arens. In what type of work ?

Mr. Morgenstern. I coach singers for opera and concert.

Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in that type of work ?

91198— 57— .pt. 1 11

750 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I caii't recall. For quite a number of years.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Metropolitan
Music School ?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. Yes.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time and in what capacity ?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I canuot recall what period of time it was, but
I taught harmony, counterpoint, and some composition.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been on the board of directoi-s of the
Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I doii't recall.

Mr. Arens. Well, in 1946 weren't you on the faculty of the Metro-
politan Music School ?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. It is possible.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you the bulletin of the Metropolitan Music
School, a photostatic reproduction, for 1946-47, in which your name
appears as a member of the faculty.

Kindly look at that and see if that refreshes your recollection.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I dou't recall.

(Document marked "Morgenstern Exhibit No. 1," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Are you currently a sponsor of the Metropolitan Music
School ?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I wouldu't know. I haven't looked at the bul-
letins.

Mr. Arens. May I invite your attention to the 1956-57 bulletin
of the Metropolitan Music School, in which your name appears as
a sponsor ?

Kindly look at that, if you will, and tell this committee if it re-
freshes your recollection.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. Presumably 1 am a sponsor, since my name is
there.

(Document previously identified as "Schwartz Exhibit No. 1," re-
tained in committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party ?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I am not a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I rcspectfully decline to answer on the grounds
of the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 1 year
ago?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. No.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 5 years
ago?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. No.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party any time
within the last 10 years?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 751

Mr. Arens, Were j'oii a member of the Communist Party 8 years
ago?

(The witness conferred with his counseL)

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Part}^ 7 years
ago?

Mr, MoRGENSTERN. I decline to ansAver on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens, Six years ago ?

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I decline to answer on the grounds of (he fifth
amendment.

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Comnnmist Party discipline?

Mr. Morgenstern. No.

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 601 West 143d Street ?

Mr. MoRGENsn:RN. No.

Mr. Arens. "WHien were you last in active status at the Metropolitan
Music School?

Mr. ]MoRGENSTERN. I Cannot recall the j'ear. It is quite some time
ago. I don't recall.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever requested that your name be disasso-
ciated or taken off of the register of the Metropolitan Music School,
official roster?

Mr. Morgenstern. As I said, I wasn't aware that it was on any
more, so consequently, I never thought about it.

Mr. Arens. What is your position now with reference to com-
munism ? Are you opposed to it or are you not opposed to it ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Morgenstern. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the
first amendment.

Mr. Arens, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.

Mr. BouDiN. Mr, Chairman, perhaps the question should be re-
peated before you make your ruling. It referred not to activity, but
to belief, if you will recall.

Mr. Doyle. For the convenience of everyone, will the question
please be read ?

(The pending question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. D0Y1.E. "V^Tiat was your answer, Witness ?

Mr. BouDiN, The witness had not answered,

Mr. Doyle. Just u minute. A\niat was your answer. Witness ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel,)

Mr. Morgenstern. My answer is I decline on the grounds of the
first.

Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Morgenstern. I decline on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment.

Mr. Arens. Have you written Hamis Eisler Songs?

Mr. Morgenstern. Pardon me, sir?

Mr. Arens. Have you written a publication called Hanns Eisler
Songs?

Mr. BouDiN. I think the pronunciation

Mr. Arens. Counsel, no man has been before tliis committee as
much as you ; and no one is more familiar with the rules of this com-
mittee than you.

752 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Do you know whether or not you have authored a publication called
Hanns Eisler Songs ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. MoRGENSTERN. I decline on the grounds of the first and fifth
amendments.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a photostatic reproduction of the
Communist Daily Worker of Tuesday, November 11, 1947, with refer-
ence to a "Freedom of Assembly Rally" at ]\Ianhattan Center, here in
New York City. Part of the program consists of "Hanns Eisler Songs
rendered by Robert Penn and Sam Morgenstern."'

Would you look at that exhibit and see if that refreshes your recol-
lection with reference to this publication Hanns Eisler Songs?

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Morgenstern. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.

(Document marked "Morgensteni Exhibit No. 2," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. BouDiN. Could it be understood, Mr. Chairman, that when the
witness declines, it will be on those two grounds, so that he need not
repeat it ?

Mr. Doyi.E. I think his answer is very brief. We will let him
answer and make his claim to his constitutional privileges. He has
been very brief in claiming them.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Were you one of the sponsors of the conference blasting
the trial of the indicted Communist leaders in New York City in
January 1949 ?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Morgenstern. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments, sir.

Mr. Arens. We lay before you now a photostatic reproduction of
the Communist Daily Worker of January 31, 1949, in which your
name appears as one of such sponsors.

Kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not it refreshes
your recollection and also whether or not, to your certain knowledge,
that gives an accurate reporting of the facts.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Morgenstern, I decline to answer that on the grounds of the
first and fifth amendments.

(Document marked "Morgenstern Exhibit No. 3," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.

Mr. Doyle. Are there any questions from members of the subcom-
mittee? If not, that will be all. Thank you. The witness is excused.

Mr. Arens. Max Hollander, kindly come forward.

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Hollander. I do.

COMIVIUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 753

TESTIMONY OF MAX HOLLANDER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

EPHEAIM LONDON

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Hollander. My name is Max Hollander. I am a musician.
I live at 191-48 Foothill Avenue, Hollis, Long Island.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Hollander, in response
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities?

Mr. Hollander. That is correct, sir.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?

Mr. Hollander. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?

Mr. London. Ephraim London, l.")0 Broadway, New York City.

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Mr. Hollander?

Mr. Hollander. I am a free-lance musician. I work at various
times at the various radio stations in Xew York, at various times at
the recording studios, at various times at whatever other professional
jobs may come to me over the telephone. I have no regular employ-
ment.

Mr. Arens. What are some of the principal employments which
you have had in the last several months ?

Mr. Hollander. I have worked for various recording companies,
such as Decca, MGJNI. I have worked for Firestone, programing the
orchestra, and things of that nature. It is impossible to go into all,
because I have worked for so many.

Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged by the S.ymphony of the Air ?

Mr. Hollander. I haven't. This is a long story. I am a charter
member of the Symphony of the Air, but I have not played with the
Symphony of the Air for some period prior to their oriental trip.
Since then, I have not played with them.

Mr. Arens. About when was that? Just your best appraisal or
judgment.

Mr. Hollander. As I remembei-, they were organized some time
in 1954. I did not join them until about 9 months afterward. Then
I was with them for a short period of probably — it is hard to say, but
of all the hundreds of concerts they have done and hundreds of appear-
ances, I may have had six, and only in the very first little period.

Mr. Arens. Have you been connected with the Metropolitan Music
School ?

Mr. Hollander. I have, sir.

Mr. Arens. In what capacit}^ ?

]Mr. Hollander. I have been a sponsor.

jMr. Arens. Are you presently a sponsor ?

]\Ir. Hollander. I am so listed.

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist Party?

Mr. Hollander. I am not a member of the Communist Party.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?

Mr. H0L1.AXDER. I must decline on tlie basis of the fifth amendmeiit.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 1 year
ago ?

Mr. Hollander. No, sir.

754 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. Arens. Were 3'ou a member of the Conmiunist Party 5 years
ago?

Mr. Hollander. I must decline on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 4 years

ago

Mr. Hollander. I must decline on the same basis.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 3 years

ago

Mr. Hollander. I must decline on the same basis.

Mr. Arens. Tm'o years ago ?

Mr. Hollander. I must decline on the same basis.

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party a year
and a half ago?

Mr. Hollander. I must decline to answer on the same basis.

Mr. Arens. Are you under Communist Party discipline ?

Mr. Hollander. Xo, sir.

Mr. Arens. Were you under Commmiist Party discipline a year
and a half ago ?

Mr. Hollander. I must decline to answer that on the basis of the
fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you appeared in the course of the last few years
under the auspices of the New York Council of the Arts, Sciences, and
Professions ?

Mr. Hollander. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Mr. Arens. I lay before you now" a thermofax reproduction of the
Communist Daily Worker of November 12, 1954, in which a concert
is announced featuring Max Hollander, violinist, as part of the pro-
gram of the New York Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions,
153 West 64th Street.

Kindly look at that and see if that refreshes 3^our recollection.

(The document was handed to the witness. )

(The witness conferred with his counsel. )

Mr. Hollander. This cannot refresh my recollection because I
played no such concert.

(Document marked "Hollander Exhibit No. 1," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. Have you appeared, given concerts, under the auspices
of the School of Jewish Studies in the course of the last few years?

Mr. Hollander. I don't recall, sir.

Mr. Arens. We display to you now a thermofax reproduction of
an announcement in the Communist Daily Worker (March 30, 1948,
p. 5), to the effect that there will be a concert at the School of Jewish
Studies in Avhich the artists listed include Max Hollander.

Look at that and see if that refreshes your recollection.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hollander. It is possible, sir, but I don't remember. Being
a violinist of certain stature, I have played concerts a great deal, and
I, as a rule, have not asked where the job comes from. May I elaborate,
if I may, sir?

Jobs, as a rule, come through the telephone, and haA^e to go through
the union somehow. One accepts a job and does not ask who is the
employer, but one finds out who has hired him. In effect, that par-

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 755

ticular person acts as a contractor. I have no recollection of having
played a concert for a Jewish school. I may have, sir.

(Document marked "Hollander Exhibit No. 2," and retained in
committee files.)

Mr. Arens. You know the School of Jewish Studies has been re-
peatedly cited as a Communist-controlled outfit ; do you not ?

Mr. HoLLAXDER. I didn't know there Avas such a school.

Mr. Arens. Do you know that the other institution, the Jefferson
School of Social Science, is a Communist-controlled organization?

(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.)

Mr. Hollander. I understand, up to this point, that it has been
on the Attorney General's list.

Mr. Arens. What union are you identified Avith ? You spoke about
the union.

]Mr. Hollander. I belong to Local 802.

Mr. Arens. Do you know Earl Browder ?

Mr. Hollander. I know the name.

Mr. Arens. Do you knoAv him in any other capacity ?

Mr. Hollander. No, sir.

Mr. Arens. Do you liA^e in Queens?

Mr. Hollander. I do, sir.

Mr. Arens. You were at one time an ace recruiter for the Com-
munist Party in Queens, Avere you not ?

ISIr, Hollander. I must decline under the basis of the fifth amend-
ment, sir.

Mr. Arens. What is your present position on communism? Are
5'ou for it or against it '?

Mr. Hollander. I am against it, sir.

Mr. Arens. Hoav long have you maintained that position?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hollander. I think I sliall have to decline to ansAver that on
the basis of my rights under the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. If you are against communism, wouldn't you want to
help a committee of the Congress undertaking to develop the factual
information to help protect this country against the Communist
menace ?

Mr. Hollander. I avouIcI help all connnittees to the extent that any
personal principles and beliefs run parallel Avith the aims of the
committee.

* * * * !i: * *

Mr. Arens. Let me ask you this: If this connnittee, Mr. Hollander,
should initiate proceedings to grant you an immunity of any pos-
sible criminal prosecution as a result of testimony which you would
give before this committee on the subject of conmiunism, would you
accept that immunity and testify fully and freely and serve your
Government by giving us such information as you may have on this
subject?

(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.)

Mr. Holl.\nder. I believe that is a hypothetical question. I don't
know how to ansAver such a hypothetical question. I am not prepared
to ansAver that at present. 1 liave tried to answer facts according to
my rights and beliefs.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this Avitness.

756 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Mr. DoTXE. I somehow have a feeling that you would like to help
your Government through this committee or some other cliannel, even
to the point of giving to the Government information that might help
us legislate more effectively in this field.

I want to urge that you think of that suggestion seriously. Natu-
rally, you will follow the advice of your distinguished counsel. I
am not trying to embarrass you or him.

I did notice that you made it very clear that you had no Communist
Party affiliations during the last 12 months. I notice you hesitated
quite a little bit, quite a few seconds, when counsel asked if you were
a member of the Communist Party 2 years ago, before you claimed
your privilege.

May I ask you this : In the last 12 months, have you had any con-
nection, directly or indirectly, with the Communist Party or Commu-
nist Party agents, or leaders, trying to induce you to join or keep any
identification, if you ever had any, with the party ?

Mr. Hollander. Sir, your question, I believe, assumes that I would
be in a position to know who might be Communist leaders, agents, or
others.

Mr. Doyle. Well, if you laiow,

Mr. Hollander. But I definitely have not been in any way, manner,
or form connected in either deed or thought with any Communist
activities.

Mr. Arens. Are there persons presently in the music entertainment
field who are known by you to liave been members of the Communist
Party in the course of the last 2 or 3 years ?

Mr. Hollander. Sir, again I feel that your question

Mr. Arens. In other words, can you right now, this instant, tell this
committee, with a moral certainty, the names of any persons in the
last couple of years, in the entertainment industry who were Com-
munists ?

Mr. Hollander. I haven't the slightest idea who might be a Com-
munist today in the entertainment field.

Mr. Arens. I didn't ask you that.

Mr. Hollander. In the music field.

Mr. Arens. I didn't ask you that. Can you right this instant tell
the Committee on Un-American Activities the names of people, musi-
cians, who, to your certain knowledge, in the course of the last 2 or 3
years, have been Communists ?

Mr. Hollander. I cannot, because the question assumes that I know
such people ; and I do not know such people.

Mr. D0Y1.E. I wish to say, before you are dismissed, I somehow feel
you are being frank and trying to be helpful.

Mr. Hollander. I am being perfectly frank, sir.

Mr. DoTLE, That is, as to your lack of knowledge within the last
year. I want to compliment you for being in the position which I
believe you are in, of being honest and frank under oath that you are
not now a Communist and that you had no connection with it in the
last year. I am not assuming or making the statement that you ever
were a Commimist, but I did notice that you fixed a deadline of a year.
I want to compliment you on not being in the position where you
have to plead the fifth amendment as of today.

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 757

The thing that amazes me is how any patriotic American can pos-
sibly come before this committee and be in a position where he or she
has to plead the amendment as of today. Why can they not get out
of that garbage and come as you have come and say, "I am not a mem-
ber of the Communist Party today," but then fix a deadline as you
have fixed.

The witness is dismissed.

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be
Mr. Alan Booth.

Please come forward.

Mr. Doyle. The witness will please raise his right hand.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God 'i

Mr. Booth. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ALAN BOOTH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
MILTON H. FRIEDMAN

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.

Mr. Booth. Alan Booth, 1 West 126th Street, New York City;
musician.

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?

Mr. Booth. I am.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?

Mr. Booth. Yes ; I am.

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Friedman. Milton H. Friedman, 342 Madison Avenue, New
York.

Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Metropolitan Music School ?

Mr. Booth. I am.

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ?

Mr. Booth. Instructor of piano.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time have you been so connected ?

Mr. Booth. I would say since 1954 or 1955. I am not sure of the
date.

Mr. Arens. How frequently do you instruct at the Metropolitan
Music School?

Mr. Booth. Are you speaking in the present period or the past?

Mr. Arens. Let's start with the present. How frequently do you
presently instruct ?

Mr. Booth. Every Saturday.

Mr. Arens. What has been your past experience along that line?

Mr. Booth. I would say about that — maybe sometime in the past
I might have had 2 days.

Mr. Arens. Who engaged vou to teach at the Metropolitan Music
School?

Mr. Booth. I was called by the director of the school.

Mr. Arens. Lilly Popper?

Mr. Booth. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Had you known lier in advance ?

Mr. Booth. I had not.

758 coMMUTsriSM in metropolitan music school, inc.

Mr. Arens. Where else have you taught?

Mr. Booth. In what period?

Mr. Arens. In the course of your lifetime.

Mr, Booth. I have taught at the Mount JNIorris Music School in
New York City. It is now nonexistent. I have taught in the Newark,
N. J., public schools. I have taught also at the Dillaixl University, in
New Orleans, La.

Mr. Arens. Have you been the accompanist to Paul Robeson?

Mr. Booth, I certainly have.

Mr. Arens. Over what period of time were you Paul Robeson's
accompanist ?

Mr. Booth. I would say from May 1953 up to the present.

Mr. Arens. You are presently Paul Robeson's accompanist?

Mr, Booth. In theory. For the last year or so we haven't had any
concerts, but I still am presently. I consider myself so.

Mr. Arens, Have you ever been with Paul Robeson in any closed
meetings of any kind, in which only a select group were admitted?

Mr. Booth. Are you speaking of a meeting or a concert or what?
What do you mean ?

Mr. Arens, Have you ever been in a closed Communist Party meet-
ing with Paul Robeson?

Mr. Booth, I decline to answer on the protection afforded me by
the fifth amendment,

Mr, Arens, Are you at the present time a Communist ?

Mr, Booth, I decline to answer under the protection afforded me
by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taught at the Jefferson School of Social
Science ?

Mr. Booth. I decline to answer under the protection afforded me
by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Have you ever given concerts under the auspices of the
Jefferson School of Social Science?

Mr. Booth. I decline to answer under the protection afforded me
by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. We lay before you now the Commmiist Daily Worker
of February 26, 1953, in which your name appears as a pianist.

Mr. Booth. What newspaper is that?

Mr. Arens, The Communist Daily Worker

Mr. Booth. I know of no newspaper by that name.

Mr. Arens. Of February 26, 1953, Do you know of a newspaper,
the Daily Worker, without the "Communist" on it?

Mr. Booth. I certainly do.

Mr. Arens. What has been the source of your knowledge about
that newspaper?

Mr. Booth. It is on the newspaper stands.

Mr. Arens. Is that the only place you have seen it?

Mr. Booth. That is right.

Mr. Arens. Do you know whether or not it is the Communist pub-
lication ?

Mr. Booth. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Arens. This publication which I have in my hand — I am going
to display it to you in just a moment — identifies the Negro pianist,
Alan Booth, as a performer at a cultural program under the auspices
of the Jefferson School [of Social Science].

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 759

Kindly look at that and see if you can help this Committee on Un-
American Activities by verifying the authenticity of the factual in-
formation contained in that article.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Booth. Might I say that your question asked me about being
under the auspices of such-and-such a school. I declined to answer,
so what is the point of this? I decline to answer under the protec-
tion afforded me by the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Do you decline to answer tlie question that is out-
standing?

Mr. Booth. I do.

(Document marked "Booth Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Apparently, you do have a little more information
about the Daily Worker than you first told us. We have here a copy
of the Daily Worker of January 26, 1954, in which there was a cele-
bration, the 30th anniversary of the Communist Daily Worker, and
they launched what is quoted here as a "big birthday party," Among
those who were there celebrating this big birthday party of the Daily
Worker, according to this article, was Alan Booth, concert pianist.

Kindly look at this article and see if that refreshes your recollection
with some other source of your knowledge of the publication which
I have alluded to as the Communist Daily Worker.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Booth. I decline to answer on the basis of the protection
afforded me by the fifth amendment.

(Document marked "Booth Exhibit No. 2," and retained in com-
mittee files. )

(The witness conferred witli his counsel.)

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been abroad ?

Mr. Booth. No ; I haven't. What do you mean ? Out of the con-
tinental United States ?

Mr. Arens. Yes.

Mr. Booth. I have been to Canada.

Mr. Arens. Any other place ?

Mr. Booth. That is all.

Mr. Arens. You have entertained, of course, have you not, under
the auspices of the National Council of tlie Arts, Sciences, and Pro-
fessions ?

Mr. Booth. I don't recollect. I might have.

Mr. Arens. Let me display to you the Sunday Compass of October
29, 1950, in which your name appears as one of the entertainers. A
series of concerts under the auspices of the New York Council of the
Arts, Sciences, and Professions is shown.

See if that refreshes your recollection.

(The docmnent was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Booth. That refreshes my recollection.

Mr. Arens. Do you remember that occasion ?

Mr. Booth. Yes.

(Document marked "Booth Exhibit No. 3," and retained in com-
mittee files.)

Mr. Arens. Did you know, at the time that you appeared there, that
the National Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions had been
found to be a Communist-controlled enterprise ?

760 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

(The witness conferred with liiscounsel.)

Mr. Booth. No ; I did not.

Mr. Arens. What is the United Freedom Fnnd ? Could you help
us on that ?

Mr. Booth. I don't think so. I think you might know more about
it than I do.

Mr. Arens. Do you recall, in the course of the recent past, enter-
taining, under the auspices of the United Freedom Fund, a birthday
celebration and concert for Paul Robeson ?

Mr. Booth. I recall entertaining for a birthday celebration of Paul
Robeson. I don't recall wliat were tlie auspices. Is that the question ?

Mr. Arexs. Perhaps this will help you to refresh your recollection.
We lay before you an exhibit featuring that celebration, under the
auspices of the United Freedom Fund, and the date, I believe, was in
May 1950.

(The document was handed to the witness.)

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Booth. It doesn't refresh my recollection.

(Document marked "Booth Exhibit No. 4," and retained in com-
mittee files. )

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the stall' interrogation of this witness.

Mr. DoTLE. If there are no questions, you are excused. Thank you.

The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning.

We have completed hearing all the witnesses subpenaed to appear
today, so we are not inconveniencing any witnesses or any attorneys.

The committee will reconvene at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning in
this room.

(Whereupon, at 2:50 p. m. Wednesday, April 10, 1957, the sub-
committee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a. m. Thursday, April 11, 1957.
Present at time of recess: Representatives Clyde Doyle, James B.
Frazier, Jr., Bernard W. Kearney, and Robert J. Mcintosh.)

COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 760(1)

Arturo Toiconlnl, ,^V\/\ /I U 1—1 I I l\ V ''<"■<' *»"•'■ C""'"""

bVMPHONX

OFTH^If^

THE SYMPHONY FOUNDATION OF AMERICA, INC.

CARNEOIE HALL • H— York. N. T • Ploto TH90

August 23, 1956

tOAID or DllCCIOt}

Mr. William "om

UCl Thlrtoentt: Avenue

Bolmar, Now Jersey

Dear Mr. lorn:

The Board of Directors of the Symphony Foundation of America has
instructed me to inform you thst it hes amended the charges
stfited in our letter of Auguat 7, 195^ to read:

"Th* specif ie nat\ir« of the charge as stated Ln
Section 5 "f th* By^lav's. on the basis of vhich
the Eo^rd h?? ^ote=d tc e?xel .vo>i fro!? the
3y3!chcnv Fo^indstion cf A!!!er"ics. is: 'for
conduct pre jusiieial tc the best Literasts cf
the Fovaidatior. . ' "

Ton are hereby invited tc appear before the Board on September 10.
1956 at 11:00 a^m., instead of the date previously given you. at
the Syaiphony Foundation office to show cause why this action
should not be carried outc

Sincerely .

-^^y^ /fl£y(yt a^yJ~~~

LF/cb

760(2) COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC.

Arlure To»conini,
Conductor [mmritut

SyMPHON/

OFTH^IP^

THE SYMPHONY FOUNDATION OF AMERICA, INC.

lOAlO or OIIECTOHS

David Wolt«r. CSo'rmon
*lon ihulmon, Vin Ckoi'mo
l«on Frsngiil, S*cr*rorjr
A>lhu> G'snick. l„oiui;
^oul Clamant
Poul Carihooit
Joutio IlKhkilt
riiilip Sklov

CAKNKSIE HALL

N.w Vofl, N.Y.

August 7» 1956

Mr. Sam Borodkln
Hotel Wellington
55th St. A 7th Avenue.
New York, N.Y,

Dear Mr. Borodkln:

Your request for postponement of the hearing of the
charges has been granted by the Board. The date of
the meeting set aside for this hearing will be
Wednesday, August 22nd at 10:30 A.M. in the office
of the Symphony Foundation of America.

The specific nature of the charge, as stated In
Section 5 of the By-Laws, Is:

1, "Failure to maintain high artistic standards

and musicianship hereby required for the
musician-members of the Foundation."

2. "....conduct prejudicial to the best Interests

of the Foundation",

It Is the sincere wish of the Board that you make
every effort to attend this meeting so that this matter
may be resolved.

Sincerely yours,

Leon Prengut

Secretary

Symphony Foundation of America

LF:8jw

COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 760(3)

Artvre Toicanlni,
Cendwcfer Emcrifui

SyMPHONy

OFTHEA^IP^

THE SYMPHONY FOUNDATION OF AMERICA, INC.

CARNEOIE HALL • N«w York. N. Y.

tOAio or Diiicion

David Wolt*f, ChoirnMin
^lon Shvlnofl. VJc« Chairman
l»on Fr«ngu!, Stftair
A,.lhu> C'onlik. Tr.oiu,»
Paul CUMitl
Foul G«rthaian
Jotcho ■vthfcln
ntlllp Sklor

M<no 1-itfO

August 23, 1956

Mr. Sa» Borodkln

Hotel Wellington

Seventh Avenue and 55th Street

New York 19, N. Y.

Dear Kr. Borodkln:

The Board of Directors of 1he Symphony Foundation of Aaierlca has
Instructed me to Inform you that It hao amended the charges
stated In our letter of August 7, 1956 to read:

"The specific nature of the charge as stated in
Section 5 of the By-laws, on the basis of which
the Board has voted to exj^el you from the
Symphony Foundation of America, is: 'for
conduct prejudicial to the best Interests of
the Foundation.'"

You are hereby invited to appear before the Board on September 10th
at 11:00 a.m., Instead of the date previously given you, to show
cause why this action should not be carried out. The hearing
will be held at the Symjihony Foundation office.

Sincerely,

I eon Frenf ut (/

Secr'»tary

Symphony Fcund'^ticn of AFierica

LF/cb

X

BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY

3 9999 05706 3164

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