Full text of "Investigation of communism in the Metropolitan Music School, inc., and related fields. Hearings"

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HARVARD COLLEGE 
LIBRARY 




GIFT OF THE 

GOVERNMENT 
OF THE UNITED STATES 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNISM IN THE METROPOLITAN 
MUSIC SCHOOL, INC., AND RELATED FIELDS— PART 2 



HEARINGS 



BEFORE THE 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 



EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 



FEBRUARY 7 AND 8 ; APRIL 11 AND 12. 1957 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 



INCLUDING INDEX 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
91198 WASHINGTON : 1957 



mVARD COLLEGE LIBRARY 
, DEPOSITED ey THE 
l^N'TED STATES GOVErIent 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

United States House of Representatives 
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania, Chairman 
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York 

CLYDE DOYLE, California DONALD L. JACKSON, California 

JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio 

EDWIN E. WILLIS, Louisiana ROBERT J. McINTOSH, Michigan 

Richard Arens, Director 
II 



CONTENTS 



Page 

Synopsis VII 

Executive Hearings (See Part 2)* 

February 7, 1957: Testimony of — ■ 

" Fred Hellerman../. 871 

February 8, 1957: Testimony of — • 

George Koukly 877 

Jesse L. Solomon 880 

Part 1 

April 9, 1957: Testimony of — ■ 

Lilly Popper 613 

Leonard Cherlin 627 

Lilly Popper (resumed) 627 

Leonard Cherlin (resumed) 628 

John Kenneth Ackley 641 

Wallingford Riegger 647 

John Lautner 650 

Wallingford Riegger (resumed) 651 

Afternoon session: 

Wallingford Riegger (resumed) 654 

Robert Claiborne 658 

Sidney Finkelstein 672 

Henry Zlotnick (Zlotnik) 680 

Walter Raim (Walter Yudomin) 681 

Max PoUikoff 682 

Maurine Holbert 685 

John F. xMehegan 690 

Harry M. Smyles 692 

April 10, 1957': Testimony of— 

Thelma Pyle 703 

Lucy Brown 705 

Mildred Hagler 712 

Frank Schwartz 716 

David Walter 725 

Afternoon session: 

Elay ne Jones 745 

Sam Morgenstern 749 

Max Hollander 753 

Alan Booth 757 

Part 2 
April 11, 1957: Testimony of — • 

Max Marlin...! 762 

Louis Graeler 770 

Viy ian Riy kin 775 

Earl Robinson 776 

Afternoon session: 

James Collis 793 

Oakley C. Johnson 794 

John Lautner (resumed) 800 

Oakley C. Johnson (resumed) 800 

Elias Carmen 810 

Paul Winter 817 

Sterling Hunkins 820 

Arnold Arnst ein 822 

Albert Edward Walters (Tiny) 824 

' Released by the committee June 11, 1957, and ordered to be printed. 

m 



IV CONTENTS 

April 12, 1957: Testimony of — Page 

Benny Berrafato 831 

Seymour Levittan 833 

Max Goberman 840 

June Rotenberg 850 

Simeon Jurist 854 

Arthur Deutsch 861 

Theodore Saidenberg 863 

Gita Rosova 866 

John Imbergamo 867 

I ndex I 



Pi-BMC Law 601, 79th Congress 

Tlie lefjislation iiiulei- which the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities operates is Public Law 601, T9tli Congress [1946], cliapter 
753, 2d session, which provides : 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Reitrcsentalires of the United ^7f//e.s• 
of America in Couyresn a/isembled, * * * 

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

Rule X 

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES 



IT. Committee on l^n- American Activitie.';, to consist of nine Members. 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 



(q) (1) Committee on Un-xVmerican Activities. 

(A) Un-American activities. 

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by a snbcommit- 
tee, is authorized to uialve from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United 
States, (ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-Ameri- 
can propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin 
and attaciis the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Con- 
stitution, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Con- 
gress in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such in- 
vestigation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit, and act at such 
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 



Rule XII 

LEGISLATIVE OVERSIGHT BY STANDING COMMITTEES 

Sec. I'Mi. To assLst the Congress in appraising the administration of the laws 
and in developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem neces- 
sary, each standing committee of the Senate and the House of Representatives 
shall exercise continuous watchfulness of the execution by the administrative 
agencies concerned of any laws, the subject matter of which is within the juris- 
diction of such committee ; and, for that purpose, shall study all pertinent re- 
ports and data submitted to the Congress by the agencies in the executive branch 
of the Government. 

V 



RULES ADOPTED BY THE 85TH CONGRESS 

House Resolution 5, January 3, 1957 
******* 

Rule X 

STANDING COM]StITTEES 

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress, 
******* 

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine Members. 
******* 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 



17. Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(a) Un-American activities. 

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, 
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (1) the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United 
States, (2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-Ameri- 
can propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin 
and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Con- 
stitution, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to 
the Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such 
investigation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such 
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the pniduction of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 



26. To assist the House in appraising the administration of the laws and in 
developing such amendments or related legislation as it may deem necessary, 
each standing committee of the House shall exercise continuous watchfulness of 
the execution by the administrative agencies concerned of any laws, the subject 
matter of which is within the jurisdiction of such committee ; and, for that 
purpose, shall study all pertinent reports and data submitted to the House by 
the agencies in the executive branch of the Government. 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNISM IN THE METROPOLI- 
TAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC., AND RELATED FIELDS- 
PART 2 



THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 1957 

UxiTED States House of Representatives, 

SuBCo:MMnTEE or the 
Committee on Un-American AcTmTEEs, 

Neio York, N. T. 

PUBLIC HEARING 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, 
pursuant to call, convened at 10 a. m., in room 35, United States Court- 
house, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder 
(chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder, 
of Missouri; Clyde Doyle, of California; James B. Frazier, Jr., of 
Tennessee; and Robert J. Mcintosh, of Michigan. 

Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; Dolores Scotti, 
investigator; Frank Bonora, acting clerk. 

Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will be in order. Call your first 
witness. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, before we call our first witness this 
morning, I should like to invite the committee's attention to two 
items of information. The first is that we have a doctor's certificate 
which has been presented to us on behalf of Mr. George Koukly, who 
was under subpena to appear today. According to the doctor's cer- 
tificate, he will be unavailable because of his physical condition for a 
period of approximately 1 week. I therefore respectfully suggest 
tliat this record reflect an order by the committee that tlie subpena 
under which Mr. Koukly is to appear today is continued for a period 
of 1 week, and then we will confer with his counsel and arrange a 
time when he can be heard in Washington. 

Mr. Xeedleman. The time and place is not fixed? 

Mr. Arens. We will have to have it in Washington, and I would 
suspect that it would be within 2 or 3 weeks. 

Mr. Moulder. The subpena served upon George Koukly will con- 
tinue in full force and effect, and the witness is ordered to appear in 
Washington, D. C, on some future date, to be set by counsel. The 
witness and his counsel will be notified. 

.Mr. Arens. We have a comparable situation with respect to Mr. 
Earl Jones, and we request that his subpena be continued until such 
time as he is notified by wire. 

Mr. Moulder. That will be the order of the committee. 

Mr. Arens, The first witness this morning, Mr. Chairman, if you 
please, will be Mr. Max Marlin. Please come forward, ]Mr. Marlin. 

761 



762 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr, Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which 
you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Marlin. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MAX MARLIN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. Marlin. Max Marlin, 97 Brooklyn Avenue ; musician ; Brooklyn 
Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y. 

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Marlin. please tell the committee where and when 
you were born. 

Mr. Marlin. I was born in Russia, November 7 

Mr. Arens. Would it be convenient for you to raise your voice a 
little, please ? 

Mr. Marlin. November 7, 1897. 

Mr. Doyle. I notice. Counsel, the Avitness is here without legal 
counsel. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today without counsel, Mr. Marlin? 

Mr. Marlin. Well, I have a friend who is a lawyer, but I didn't call 
him. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing as a friendly witness, are you not ? 

Mr. Marlin. Right. 

Mr. Ajrens. When did you come to the United States ? 

Mr. Marlin. June 1904. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you will, please, just a thumbnail sketch of 
your early life, your education, and background. 

Mr. Marlin. Well, public school, high school, 2 years of City 
College. 

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your education in City College? 

Mr. Marlin. I didn't graduate. I got out of there, I think it was, in 
1916. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, please, sir, just the highlights of your career in 
music. 

Mr. Marlin. I started out playing in picture houses, and then I 
went into vaudeville. After vaudeville I went on WPA, and from 
WPA into the legitimate theater as a leader. 

Mr. Arens. And what instrument do you play? 

Mr. Marlin. Organ and piano. 

]\Ir. Arens, Mr. Marlin, have you ever been a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Marlin. I have. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly, just in your own way and at your 
own pace, describe to the committee the circumstances under which 
you joined the Communist Party and when you joined the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask first, because I did not clearly hear the wit- 
ness' statement, where and when he was born ? 

Mr. Marlin. Where? Russia. 

Mr. Doyle. What part of Russia ? 

Mr. Marlin. Down near the Don River. 

Mr. Doyle. And when? 

Mr. Marlin. 1897. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 763 

Mr. Doyle. Thaiik you. 

Mr. jVIarlin. What was the question again, counsel? 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly tell the committee the circumstances 
and date of your affiliation with the Communist Party. 

Mr. Marlin. Well, with the advent of sound in the theaters, we 
were all thrown out of work ; at least I was. 

Mr. Arexs. What period of time was that '. 

Mr. Marlin. That was in 1935. And being out of work, I natu- 
rally looked for work; and I was told that if I wanted a job, it would 
be best for me to make the acquaintance of certain people, which I 
proceeded to do; and they were helpful in getting me work in the 
union on relief, and eventually on WPA. These people were later 
found out to be members of the party. They urged me to join, and 
1 did. 

Mr. Aeens. When did you join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Marlin. Well, roughly around September, or thereabouts, 
1936. 

Mr. Arexs. Can you tell us. if you please, sir, who recruited you into 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Marlix. Well, the actual approach was made by Mr. JVfodiano. 

Mr. Arex^s. And his first name I 

Mr. Marlix. Albert. 

Mr. Arexs. Can you give us a word of identification about him? 

Mr. Marlix\ He was a member of the administration of the local. 

Mr. Arex'S. "V^liat local was that ? 

Mr. Marlix. 802. 

Mr. Arexs. Was he a Communist ? 

Mr. Marlix. Apparently, since he recruited me. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you served in a closed Communist Party meet- 
ing with him ? 

Mr. Marlix. Yes. 

Mr. Arexs. How long were you in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Marlix. Until approximately Januaiw 1940. 

Mr. Arexs. '\Miat precipitated your disassociation from the Com- 
mimist Party in 1940 ? 

Mr. Marlix. Well, toward 1939, I started to get my own work. I 
had a lot of trouble in picking the people that I wanted for these 
jobs. I was told at all costs to put so-and-so on, and if I hadn't I 
was brought to account. 

Mr. Arexs. Who told you to put so-and-so on ? 

Mr. Marlix. Well, whoever happened to be in charge at the time. 

Mr. Arexs. No. I mean was it a Communist who undertook to 
direct you as to whom you should employ ? 

Mr. Marlix. It was a Communist Party directive. 

Mr. Arex'S. Do you recall the individual in the Coinnnmist Pai'ty 
who gave you the directive to employ certain people ? 

Mr. Marlix. Well, let's say, at one time or another, it was Mr. 
Koukly ; at another time, it was Mr. Modiano. 

Mr. Arexs. '\Mio is Mr. Koukly ? Mr. George Koukly ? 

Mr. ]Marlix. Yes; Mr. George Koukly, who was a member of the 
administration of 802 at the time. 

Mr. Doyle. I do not think the record yet shows Avhether or not 
Mr. George Koukly has been identified as a Communist. 

Mr. Arexs. He has not been as vet. 



764 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Doyle. This is the first time ? 

Mr. Arens. That is correct. He will be very shortly. 

You, at that time, were a leader of an orchestra ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. x\rens. Tell us the powers and responsibility of a leader from 
the standpoint of employment of otlier musicians. 

Mr. INIarlin. A leader must pick musicians on the basis of their 
abilities. 

Mr. Arens. Does the leader actually select the musicians ? 

Mr. Marlix. He actually selects the musicians. 

Mr. Arens. Were you under pressure, or under direction, from the 
Communists to engage certain people ? 

Mr. Marlin. In various cases, 1 or 2 people. Not many, because 
in a dramatic show, wliich were the only kinds of shows I did, there 
are only 4 or 5 men at the most, so there wasn't too much room. 
Wlierever it was possible, certain people were suggested. 

Mr. Arens. Were the persons suggested to you for employment 
Communists themselves ; or do you know ? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Cormnu- 
nist Party, did you ever serve in a closed Communist Party meeting 
with George Koukly ? Is it K-o-u-k-l-y ? 

Mr. Marlin. K-o-u-k-l-y, or something like that. I am not sure. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in a closed Communist Party meet- 
ing with him ? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you here identify him to be a person known by 
you to be a Communist ? 

Mr. Marlin. As much as I was at the time ; yes. 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us just a word about him ? 

Mr. Marlin. Mr. Koukly was very active in running the affairs of 
the local at the time; and, naturally, I took what he asked for very 
seriously. There were many activities going on at the time. There 
was a period of great unemployment among musicians. As a matter 
of fact, there is now, too ; but it was much more pointed then because 
there was no other place to go. There was a general depression, you 
know, in 1936, 1937, and 1938. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat is Mr. George Koukly doing now ; do you know ? 

Mr. M.iRLiN. I don't think he is doing anything. 

Mr. Doyle. Is tliat the man about wliom the doctor made an affida- 
vit today that he was sick ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. During the course of your membership in the 
Commmiist Party, did you know a person as a Communist by the 
name of Edward (Tiny) Walters? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of description about him? 

Mr. Marlin. Well, Tiny Walters, I think, came from Jamaica. I 
am not sure. He is a Negro, a saxophone player, who became quite 
active through activities in Harlem among the Negro musicians. 

Mr. Arens. Was there a fraction of the Communist Party in Local 
802 among the musicians ? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us who were in that fraction of the Communist 
Party, to your certain knowledge. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 765 

Mr. ]\L\RLiN. That would be too great a number. 
Mr. Abens. Can you tell us some ^ 

Mr. Marlin". In other words, the very small units would meet at 
times in what they called a general fraction meeting to discuss what- 
ever the problems were. 

Mr. Arens. There were various cells of the fraction; is that cor- 
rect? 
Mr. Marlin. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Who was in the cell of the fraction to which you were 
assigned ? 
Mr. JNIarlin. It is so long ago I have to think. 

Mr. Arens. Was Modiano in that cell, or was he in tlie general 
fraction ? 
Mr. Marlin. He was in the general fraction. 

Mr. Arens. Was Kouklv in that cell or was he in the general frac- 
tion? 
Mr. Marlin. He was in the general fraction. 

Mr. Arens. Was Walters in that cell or in the general fraction? 
Mr. Marlin. He was in the general fraction. 
Mr. Arens. How many people were in your cell ? 
Mr. JNIarlin. I would say 5 or 6. 

Mr. Arens. Did it change, from time to time, in personnel ? 
Mr. Marlin. Yes ; people would come and people would go. 
Mr. Arens. "\^^lere did the fraction meet? 

Mr. Marlin. Any little room that we could get in tliat neighbor- 
hood of 48th Street or 49th Street. It was quite open. 
Mr. Arens. Do you mean sometimes in a home ? 
Mr. Marlin. Sometimes in a home or sometimes in a meeting 
room. 

Mr. Arens. Did you Iniow Sidney Feldman ? 
Mr. Marlin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Did 3^011 ever serve in a closed Communist Party meet- 
ing with him ? 

Mr. ;^'IARLIN. I did. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a w^ord of description about Sidney 
Feldman ? 

Mr. Marlin. He is a saxophone player, a member of the adminis- 
tration of the local. 

Mr. Arens. "Wlien you say a member of the administration of the 
local, what do you mean ? 

Mr. Marlin. An elected official. 
Mr. Arens. Then he was an elected official of 802 ? 
Mr. Marlin. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person bv the name of Eobert Sterne? 
Mr. I^Iarlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist? 
Mr. Marlin. Sure. Very well. He was widely known as such. 
But he left very shortly afterwards. 
Mr. Arens. He left "the party ? 
Mr. ;Marlin. Yes. 
Mr. Arens. "Wliere did he go ? 

Mr. Marlin. He just left. He didn't go anywhere. 
Mr. Arens. Did you know a person as a Communist by the name 
of David Ginden ? 



766 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Marlin. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of description about him ? 

Mr. Marlin. He was employed by the local, too, in the capacity 
of clerk of some kind. I have forgotten. He is a pianist. 

Mr. Arens. Was he part of tlie Connnunist fraction of Local 802 ? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Connnunist a person by the name 
of Gerald Rudy ? 

Mr. Marlin. Right; yes. 

Mr. Arens. Can you g:ive us a word of description about liini ( 

Mr. JVIarlin. Gerald is a flute player. I believe he has left the 
city at the present time. He was quite active in circles. 

Mr. Arens. Was lie a member of the Communist fraction of Local 
802? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person as a Communist by the name of 
Sterling Hunkins ? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Please give us a word of description about him. 

Mr. Marlin. Sterling was a cellist employed by WOR at the time. 

Mr. Arens. Was he a member of the Communist fraction of Local 
802? 

Mr. Marlin. He was. I didn't see much of him. He was one of the 
high-earning people, so we had very little to do with him. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person as a Communist by the name of 
Seymour Levitt an f Si Levittaii? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Give us a word of description about him, please. 

Mr. Marlin. Si is a very fine pianist and, I believe, a lawyer. 

Mr. Arens. Was he part of the Communist fraction of 802? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes, at that time. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Communist a person by the name 
of David Freed? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, a word of description about Mr. 
David Freed. 

Mr. Marlin. Mr. Freed was also an elected official of the local and 
was in charge of tlie relief department, which is a very good, strategic 
spot, you know, to do things for people who needed relief; and I was 
one of them. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about the practices or techniques or 
activities of the Communist Part}' within tlie field of musicians of this 
vicinity ? 

]\Ir. Marlin. Well, at that time, there was a tremendous unrest, so 
that the ground was very fertile to maintain a feeling of discontent, 
which was the nucleus and the idea behind any such activity. The 
only things that I am personally familiar with were the activities to 
reduce the workweek, we will say from 7 days to 6 days, and an at- 
tempt to equalize work opportunities, all within the apparatus, of 
course, of the local. 

]\Ir. Arens. Within the Communist Party fraction, was there a 
concerted determination to procure employment for musicians who 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 767 

were Coinniiinit;ts and to preclude from employment musicians who 
were anti-Communist? 

Mr. Marlin. Frankly, those issues were never discussed at a frac- 
tion meeting as such. 

Mr. Arens. Well, within the operation ? 

Mr. Marlix. It was sort of an unwritten word, policy, that you had 
to take care of your own. 

Mr. Arens. And when you were a leader of the orchestras from 
theater to theater, you were under pressure from the Connnunists to 
employ Communists ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Marlin. If I could, yes, because, after all, a musician is clas- 
sified not only to ability but also by instrument. If there are 4 clarinet 
players looking for a job, I could only employ 1. So it was a little 
bit complicated. But I managed to maintain the integrity of the 
orchestra at all costs. 

Mr. Arens. May I ask you about the motives which precipitated 
your disassociation from the Connnunist Party ? 

Mr. Marlin. Well, of course, the great to-do in 1939 after the 
signing of the Nazi-Soviet Pact, especially among Jewish musicians, 
that created a tremendous repercussion. Instinctively we tried to 
defend it, but it was a futile attempt, and a lot of us finally gave in 
to the same feelings as the outsiders had about this pact, plus all the 
other personal unpleasantness that I have describecl of employment 
pressures and things done by one to another. 

In other words, what I would like to bring out is that a person 
doesn't change by signing a card or not signing a card. AH the 
pledges in the world do not change the individual ; and all the char- 
acteristics that we do not like among people, held sway just as much 
in the party. I saw that it w\as a Utopian idea created for some 
ulterior motive which at that time I wasn't aware of. 

Mr. Doyle. May I have that answer again, please ? I didn't under- 
stand the first 3 or 4: words of that answer. 

Mr. Marlin. What I tried to say was the approach was to create 
an idea for a utopia, which was simply — shall I say, or use the word — 
a lure to draw discontented people into an activity. 

Mr. Doyle. A lure to draw discontented people into what? 

Mr. Marlin. Communist Party activities. 

Mr. D0YI.E. A lure to draw discontented people. I have never 
heard it put that way before by a former Communist. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Marlin, so that this record will be absolutely clear, 
do you here and now identify each person whom we liave called off 
as a person known by you to have been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Mr. Marlin. Those that I have identified, I certainly do. 

Mr. Arens. And you have told us in staff consultations of others 
concerning whom you are not absolutely positive and have not actually 
served with in the Communist Party meetings? 

Mr. Marlin. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Arens. But, of course, we do not want to reveal their names in 
public session because of a possible uncertainty. 

Mr. ]VL\RLiN. Surely. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 



768 COMMUNISM IN ISIETROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Moulder. Hare you any questions, Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I think I would like to ask a few, because here is a man 
who may be able to help us in the field of our study in matters of 
possible legislation. I make that remark, members of the committee, 
because I think of his answer a minute ago in describing the Conunu- 
nist Party as he Imew it; he said it was a lure to draw discontented 
people. That, it seems to me, is a possible guiding post for us as we go 
back to Congress, if his description of it is accurate, and I think it is. 
It then means that we should bear in mind, in legislation, that the 
Communist Party members, as he knew them in the musical field, were 
discontented people, at that time at least. 

May I ask you tliis, Mr. Marlin: You realize, of course, that we are 
not investigating music, do you not ? 

Mr. ML\RLiN, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. We are not investigating the Symphony of the Air. 
We are not investigating either an organization or the field of music. 
But we are investigating the extent to which those fields have been 
infiltrated by Communists, by the Communist conspiracy. 

Yesterday and the day before, we had some people before us who 
agreed with you when you said a leader must take the musicians on the 
basis of ability as musicians. That was your statement of a minute 
ago. 

Mr. ISIarlin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. But you also stated it was an unwritten policy to take 
care of your own in the Communist Party. Isn't that an inconsistent 
position ? 

Mr. Marlin. Except that I did not adopt that policy. 

Mr. Doyle. You did not adopt it. But you stated a minute ago, as 
other musicians did yesterday and the day before, that the musicians 
must be chosen on the basis of their musical ability. 

Mr. Marlin. That is right. 

Mr. Doyle. Now you say the Communist musicians in Local 802, of 
which you were a member, had as an unwritten policy that you Com- 
munists must take care of Communist musicians first. That means 
regardless of musical ability, doesn't it? 

Mr. Marlin. Correct. That is why I got into trouble several times. 

Mr. Doyle. That is why you got into trouble ? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle, x^nd all over the Nation we find that the Comnnmist 
Party members take care of Communists first, regardless of their 
ability, whether it is in a labor union, whether it is in education, 
whether it is in music; whatever it is in. The Communist is taken 
care of regardless of any other feature. Whether it is lack of ability 
or anything else, he is taken care of; whether it is to the best interests 
of the symphony orchestra or what it is. In other words, they place 
the philosophy of the Communist Party ahead of any other philoso- 
phy or any otlier feature or factor. 

You stated, "I was told to do it at all costs. If I didn't, I was 
taken to account." Who took you to account, or who threatened to, 
if you didn't appoint these Communist musicians, regardless of 
whether or not they were on top in musical ability ? Who threatened 
you ? 

Mr. Marlin. Representatives of the fraction would summon me 
on charges. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 769 

Mr. Doyle. B}' fraction, you mean the Communist Party fraction? 

Mr. Marlin. Yes. It was very unpleasant. 

Mr. Doyle. Then you stated, "I was told if I wanted a job, it would 
be well to see certain people." Who were those people you were told 
to see if you wanted work ? Were they Communists ? 

Mr. Marlix. Yes. Mr. Freed, who was in charge of the relief 
department. 

Mr. Doyle. You could not get a job until you became a Communist? 

Mr. ^NIarlin. Apparently I could not. I tried. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, you didn't. 

Mr. Marlin. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. So here is another case where a Communist was in con- 
trol of employment in a musicians union at that time ; and he wouldn't 
give you a job until you became a Communist, regardless of your 
musical ability. 

Mr. Marlix. Right. 

Mr. Doyle. I have one or two more things. I think this is impor- 
tant, ^Ir. Chairman. Here is a man who comes to us as a friendly 
witness, without a lawyer. 

You realize, ]Mr. Marlin, that in this room are at least a few people 
who now regard you as a stool pigeon, do jow not ? 

Mr. Marlix. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. At least a few of them, "\^ni3^ in the world are you 
willing to come here without a lawyer and tell the facts regarding 
your experience as a Communist Party member ? "Wliy do you do it ? 
I have never met you before in my life, have I ? 

Mr. ]Marlix. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. I do not know what your answer is going to be. I 
would like to know what it is that enters into your decision to come 
here and talk cold turkey when you know that there are people who 
may read 3'our testimony and will classify you, as a young lady from 
Texas who had an argument with me the other day did, when she 
called the FBI "stool pigeons." You will be put into the category of 
a stool pigeon by a few in this room and a few others. Why do you 
do it? 

Mr. iSlARLix. Well, I haven't got a prepared statement. I will try 
to be as clear as I can be. 

The first part of my testimony holds that the lure of going into the 
party was on the basis of discontent, unemployment, and everything 
else. It may be a bad excuse, but that is what happened among many, 
many thouh:ands at that time. As soon as things cleared and the minds 
cleared and the families started to eating, you started looking around 
and seeing the falsity of the original idea. The proof of it is that, 
since 1940, I have been able, by my own efforts, to maintain a rather 
decent standard of living within the American framework. There- 
fore, when the Government called on me to clarify certain things, I 
was very happy to do so. 

Mr. Doyle. In other words, when your Government called on you 
recently, in connection with this study by this committee, to give the 
facts and the truth, you were glad to do so ? 

Mr. Marlix^. Yes, sir. 



77U COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Doyle. Regardless of the fact you kne^Y that when you did it 
at least some musicians in New York and elsew^here would imme- 
diately classify you as a stool pigeon. 

Weil, I want to compliment you for doing it. I want to thank you 
for doing it. This is another case where an American citizen has seen 
the light and places his own Government ahead of the Communist 
conspiracy. 

I think it should be significant, Mr. Chairman, that in tliis morn- 
ing's papers and last night's papers are pictures of two immigrants 
to this country who were arrested as a result of the FBI "stool 
pigeons" in connection with a conspiracy to sell our American form 
of government down the river. I refer to the Soble case, right here 
in Nev.- York City. And then some people wonder why it is necessary 
to keep busy Congressmen at work doing this sort of thing. I think 
it ought to open their eyes as to what the Communist conspiracy really 
is. 

Mr. Mouldp:r. Mr. Mcintosh ? 

Mr. McIntosh. No questions. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier, have you any questions ? 

Mr. Frazier. I have no questions. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Marhn, we greatly appreciate your testimony 
and the information you have given us. We connnend you very 
highly for it. You are excused as a witness. 

Mr. Arexs. Tlie next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be 
Mr. Louis Graeler. 

yiv. ]MouLDER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony whicli you 
are about to give befoi'e the committee will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Graeeer. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS GRAELER. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
LEONARD B. BOUDIN 

Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Graeler. My name is Louis Graeler. I live at 207 West 106th 
Street. I am a musician. 

Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in i-esponse to a subpena 
which was served upon you by the House Committee on I"'^n- American 
Activities? 

Mr. Graeler. As of March 6 or 7; ^^es. 

Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Gr^veler. Yes. 

Mr. Arex^s. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. BouDix. Leonard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New York, N. Y. 

Mr. Arexs. Where are you employed, Mr. Graeler? 

Mr. Graeler. I am a free-lance musician, employed by the Sym- 
phony of the Air. 

Mr. Arexs. How long have you been employed by the Symphony 
of the Air ? 

Mr. Graeler. Since its formation. 

Mr. Arex'S. When was that? We had testimony on it yesterday, 
Mr. Graeler, but it would help the record if you would repeat it now. 
'WHien was it formed? 



COMMUNISM m METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 771 

Mr. Gkaeler. I believe it was June of 1955. 

Mr. AiiENS. You have been regularly employed with the Symphony 
of the Air since then ? 

]Mr. Graelek. That is correct. 

Mr. Arexs. In what capacity? 

Mr. Graeler. I am a violinist, and a good one — for the record. 

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Symphony of the Air when 
the Symphony of the^Vir took its trip to the Far East ? 

Mr. Graeler. Yes ; I was. I was veiy happy to go. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever beeen, a member of the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Graeler. I am not now a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Graeler. I decline to answer on the grounds of my rights un- 
der tlie first amendment of the Constitution and my constitutional 
privilege under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 1 year 
ago? 

Mr. Graeler. I decline to answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party 6 months 
ago? 

Mr. Graeler. I decline to answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party :> montlis 
ago? 

Mr. Graeler. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr, Arexs. Were you a member of the Connnunist Party any time 
since you were subpenaed to appear before this connnittee ? 

Mr! Graeler. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arexs. Were vou a mend)er of the Communist Partv vester- 
day? 

Mr. Graeler. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arexs. Are you presently under Commmiist Party discipline? 

Mr. Graeler. I am not. 

Mr. Arexs. Do you know a man by the name of AVilliam Dorn ? 

Mr. Graeler. I certainly do. 

Mr. Arexs. Did you have occasion to have a difference with Mr. 
Dorn on certain matters while he was with the Symphony of the Air ? 

Mr. Graeler. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Arexs. Is Mr. Dorn the man who authorized a resolution 
within the Symphony of the Air, in effect calling for the ejection of 
known Communists from the Symphony of the Air? 

(The witness conferred with liis counseL) 

Mr. Graeler. Mr. Dorn did introduce such a resolution, 1 under- 
stand. I was not present at the time that he introduced it. What 
I mean by that is that there was a secret meeting held at which this 
was introduced, as I understand. I was not present, as I say. I was 
not invited to be present. Let's put it that way. Mr. Dorn, for your 
information, is also a man who walked out on a concert because there 
was a Xegro member in the orchestra. 

Mr. Arexs. Did you take an active part in trying to cause Mr. 
Dorn to be disassociated from the Symphony of the Air? 

Mr. Graeler. I did not. 

91198 — 57 — pt. 2 2 



772 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Were yon an opponent of Mr. Dorn ? 

Mr. Graeler. So far as liis racial policies were concerned, yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did yon attend any of the meetings of the Symphony 
of the Air in which Mr. David Walter was presiding and the ques- 
tion arose, within tlie meeting, of Communists within the Symphony 
of the Air? 

Mr. Graeler. There were many meetings at which the question of 
the cancellation of the tour was discussed. This was a very important 
thing for everybody involved, as you may well imagine. The life of 
our orchestra was dependent upon a solution of that problem. I at- 
tended every meeting of the Symphony of the Air that I was able to 
attend. 

Mr. Arens. But did you attend the meetings in which this issue of 
the Dorn resolution was proposed or discussed ? 

Mr. Graeler. I am not sure that it was ever proposed or discussed. 

Mr. Arens. Did you attend meetings of the Symphony of the Air 
in which the issue of Communists within the Symphony of the Air 
was the subject matter for consideration by the members? 

Mr. Graeler. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Arens. Were you, at that very time when you attended that 
meeting, a member of the Communist Party ? 

]Mr. BouDiN, May I suggest that the witness has answered these 
questions before by pleading the privilege. There is not much point 
in rephrasing the question and getting the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. I appreciate, Mr. Boudin, that you are in a liurry; and 
we are going to try to cooperate with you and not take any more 
time than necessary with this witness. 

Would you answer that one question, please ? 

Mr. Graeler. I have declined to answer any questions dealing with 
political activities, not only on my part but anybody else's part, be- 
fore today. 

Mr. Arens. Then do not talk about political activities. Talk about 
affiliation or concerted actions within the Communist Party. Were 
you a member of the Communist Party at the time when the issue 
of Communists within the Symphony of the Air was discussed ? 

Mr. BouDiN. Mr. Chairman, this is simply a procedural matter. I 
notice there are photograpliers here. Will you see that there are 
pictures not taken until Mv. Graeler leaves the room? I have no 
objection to them taking them outside, but not while he is testifying. 

Mr. IMouLDER. There will be no pictures taken while he is testifying. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ? 

Mr. Graeler. I believe Mr. ]\ioulder was going to say something. 

Mr. BouDiN. Would you repeat the question ? 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party at the 
time when the Symphony of the Air membership had before it the 
issue of Communists within the Sj^mphony of the Air ? 

Mr. Graeler. The same answer as I gave before. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude 
the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. IMouLDER. By saying "the same answer," you are claiming the 
privilege under the first and fifth amendments ? 

Mr. Graeler. Yes. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions, Mr. Doyle ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 773 

Mr. Doyle. AVhy was not tJie Doru resolution considered? 

Mr. Graeler. I can only answer by hearsay. 1 can only answer 
from what I have read in the papers about that. I personally do not 
know, but I know that the question of a quorum came into the picture. 
Quorums are not very easy to get, specially in the Symphony of the 
Air, because we are all free-lance people; we are all working different 
jobs. We do not have hours that coincide at any point. Some peoi)le 
work at night, some people work in the morning, and some people 
work all afternoon, 

Mr. Doyle. You said the matter of the cancellation of the trip was 
discussed, evidently, on more than one occasion. 

Mr. Graeler. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. Then did the question of the possible Connnunist Party 
membership of some of the Symphony of the Air members come up 
as a reason why it was canceled ? 

]Mr. Graeler. I believe it did, and at that time it was decided by — 
well, I would luite to say unanimously, because there is such a thing 
as a Billy Dorn; but it was decided that there were no Conununists 
in the orchestra. 

Mr. Doyle. Was that a full membership attendance? 

Mr. Graeler. As full as it would be at any meeting. 

Mr, Doyle. Who decided there were no Communists in the Sym- 
phony of the Air? 

Mr. Graeler. Everybody present had a chance to talk. Everybody 
expressed his opinion on the subject, because we were all concerned 
with getting the Symphony out of this difficulty that we had beeen 
plunged into. 

Mr. Doyle. How many were present at that meeting ? 

Mr. Graeler. I have no way of telling. 

Mr, Doyle. Approximately how many? 

]\Ir. Graeler. A quorum of the orchestra would be something like 
47. There were at least -iT members and proliably more. 

J\Ir, Doyle. Did all the 4" members talk ? 

Mr. Graeler. Anybody who wanted to was certainly free to. 

Mr. Doyle. So it was, do I understand, unanimously determined by 
the 47 present that there were no Communists in the orchestra ? 

Mr. Graeler, I said unanimously, possibly with the exception of 
people like — well, when I say people, that might be misunderstood, 
too. I doubt whether there were more than, say, Billy Dorn and 
Sam Borodkin who disagreed with that. That is my personal 
opinion, 

Mr. Doyle. What did you do with that decision when ^^ou made 
it ? Did you transmit it to the State Department? 

■Mr. Gp^veler. To do what ? To accept the tour ? 

Mr, Doyle, This decision at the meeting of 47 present that there 
were no Communists present. What did you do with that decision? 
Did you inform the Government about it ? 

Mr. Graeler. There were steps taken to inform the Government 
prior to that meeting. Mr. Dave Walter, who was our chairman of 
the board, and several other members werit to Washington to see what 
could be done about this. We took the matter up with the union 
president, who also was very anxious to take care of this situation. 



774 coMJviinsriSM in metropolitan music school, inc. 

Mr. Arens. David Walter, himself, to your certain knowledge, at 
that meeting was a person who had been a Communist; was he not? 

Mr. Graeler. I didn't say anything of the sort ; did I ? 

Mr. Arens. Do you know, from your own personal knowledge and 
experience, whether or not David Walter has ever been a Communist? 

Mr. Graeler. I decline to answer, as I would in the case of Billy 
Dorn or anybody else. 

Mr. Arexs. You said that Billy Dorn had evidenced some type of 
anti- Negro sentiment. Was that a sentiment that he evidenced 
against Elayne Jones ? 

Mr. Graeler. There were three Negro people 

Mr. Arexs. Did he evidence that sentiment against Elayne Jones? 

Mr. Graeler. And tw^o other Negi'o members in the orchestra, whose 
names I do not know. 

Mr. Arexs. Did he evidence it against Elayne Jones ? 

Mr. Grx\eler. And two other people. 

Mr. Arexs. Do you know whether or not Elayne Jones has been 
a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Graeler. I decline to answer about anybody's affiliations. 

Mr. Arexs. ]\lr. Chairman, unless he gives a better answer than 
that, I suggest that he be directed and ordered to answer the question. 

Mr. Graeler. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arexs. When this group met and determined that there were 
no Communists in the orchestra, why didn't the quorum go ahead 
and pass the resolution by Billy Dorn which would authorize the 
officials to throw out of the Symphony of the Air any known Com- 
munists? 

Mr. Graeler. I don't know what othei- people's reasons were. I 
can't answer for their reasons. 

Mr. Arexs. You didn't very enthusiastically support Mr. Dorn's 
I'esolution at that time ; did you ? 

Mr. Graeler. I certainly did not. 

Mr. Arexs. That will conclude the staff interrogation, if you please, 
Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Moulder. At this point, Mr. Arens, I would like to refer to 
this letter which is addressed to tlie chairman of the Committee on 
Ihi-American Activities, from a oentleman named Filippo Ghignatti, 
who is chairman of the board of directors of the Sj'mphony Foundation 
of America, Inc. 

In tliis letter he states : 

The board of directors of the Symphony of the Air and the membership, which 
has always been 100 percent apolitical in organization and ideals, has recently 
approved and unanimously passed a resolution which prohibits any member from 
serving on the board of directors if he invoked any constitutional amendment 
during the course of his appearance as a witness before a congressional investi- 
gating committee. 

This letter also cites many compliments and statements from various 
newspapers, commending the work of the Symphony of the Air and 
its good-will tour abroad. 

Mr. Doyle. ^YivAt is the date of it, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. Moulder. The letter is dated April 4, 1957. This letter will be 
iiled with the committee. 

(Witness excused.) 



COMJVIUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 775 

Mr. Moulder. Call the next Avitness. 

Mr. Arens. Vivian Rivkin, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. Will you be sworn, please ? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give be- 
fore this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss RivKix. I do. 

Mr. Needlemax. Mr. Chairman, in the light of your ruling, they 
just violated it. You just told them that they weren't supposed to 
take pictures except outside. 

Mr. Moulder. The rule of the committee is that, during the course 
of testimony, the wdtness will not be photographed. 

Mr. Needlemax. That is right. But you keep saying that, and he 
keeps taking pictures. 

Mv. DovLE. That applies, Mr. Needleman, to after a witness has been 
sworn, but not before. 

TESTIMONY OF VIVIAN RIVKIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN 

Mr. Arexs. Identify yourself by name, address, and occupation. 

Miss RivKix. My name is Vivian Rivkin, 2509 Broadway, Man- 
hattan. I am a concert pianist. 

Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today. Miss Rivkin — do you have a 
married name? 

Miss RivKix. I am divorced. This is my maiden name. 

Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in response to a subpena 
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities? 

Miss RiVKix. Yes. 

Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel ? 

Miss RivKix. Yes. 

Mr. Arexs. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Xeedle3hax. I am Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New 
York, N. Y. 

Mr. Arexs. Where are you employed, Miss Rivkin ? 

Miss RivKix. I am a concert pianist. I am not employed, 

Mr. Arexs. A\'liere have you played in the recent past as a concert 
])ianist? 

Miss RrvKix. Throughout the United States and Europe. 

Mr. Arens. And under whose auspices? What is your professional 
connection ? 

Miss RivKix. Myself. I have gotten concerts through my own 
connections. 

Mr. Arexs. Are you connected with the Metropolitan Music 
School? 

Miss RivKix. No. 

lSh\ Arexs. Have vou ever been connected with the Metropolitan 
Music School ? 

Miss RivKix. No. 

Mr. Arexs. Your name appears as a sponsor of the Metropolitan 
Music School. Could you help us on that ? 

Miss RiVKix, Years and years ago I was asked to lend my name 
as a sponsor to the school, and I did. 



776 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Are you currently a sponsor ? 

Miss RiA'KTN. I believe so. 

Mr. Moulder. I did not understand your name. 

Miss RivKiN. Vivian Eivkin. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 805 West End Avenue ? 

Miss Eivkin. No. 

Mr. iVRENS. Are you now, or have you ever been, :i member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Miss RiVKiN. I decline to answer this question < n the ground of 
the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Comnuniist Party ? 

Miss RivKiN. I retain the same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. JVIcIntosh ? 

Mr. McIntosh. No questions. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier? 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. MoLTLDER. The witness is excused. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Earl Robinson, kindly come forward. 

Mr. ]M()LTLDER. Would 3 ou be sworn as a witness, please ? 

Do you solemidy swear that the testimony you are about to give 
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Robinson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF EARL EOBINSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

MARTIN POPPER 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Robinson. My name is Earl Robinson, 11 Cranberry Street, 
Brooklyn 1, N. Y. I am, first of all, a composer of music. I compose 
songs, cantatas, orchestral work. I write music for the theater, ballet, 
and films, for Hollywood and here. 

Secondly, I am a singer, something of a performer. I have sung 
thousands of concerts all over America, Canada, everwhere from the 
big concert halls to the White House. 

Thirdly, I am a conductor. I have conducteVl everything from 
children's choruses of 6 years old up thi'ough the New York Phil- 
harmonic. 

Fourth and fifth, down the line, I am known as something of an 
authority on American folk music. I give lectures on American folk 
music and do research in that field. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Robinson, in response to 
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Un-American 
Activities Committee? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ? 

Mr; Robinson. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself? 

Mr. Popper. JNIartin Popper, 160 Broadway, New York. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. / / / 

]Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Metropolitan Music School, 
Mr. Eobinson? 

Mr. EoBixsoN. Yes, sir. I teach a children's chorus there at the 
present time. 

]\Ir. Arexs. How long have you been connected with the Metropol- 
itan ;Music School ? 

Mr. RoBixsox. Two or three years. I am not certain, absolutely. 

Mr. Arens. Are you connected with People's Songs? 

]Mr. Romxsox. Peox^le's Songs, as far as I know, is out of existence. 
I was at one time. 

Mr. Arexs. In what capacity were you connected with People's 
Songs ? 

Mr. RoBixsox. I think I was on the advisory board, or something 
like that, 

Mr. Arens. Did you author articles occasionally for People's Songs? 

Mr. RoBixsox. It is very possible I did ; yes. 

Mr. Arens. You were on the board of directors of People's Songs, 
were you not ? 

Mr. Robinson. If that is the way you have it, that is right ; yes. 

Mr, Arexs. Did you author the publication The Quiet Man From 
Kansas, in honor of Earl Browder? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Moulder. I did not understand the question, Mr. Arens. 

Mr, Arexs. It was whetlier he was the author of the publication. 
The Quiet Man From Kansas, in honor of Earl Browder. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. RoBixsox. I am sorry; I will have to decline to answer this. 
I have a reason, which I hope you will listen to, because it is going to 
relate to any further questions of this nature. I am not going to read 
this. It is just to help me. 

As a musician, I started out very, very early in the schools of Seat- 
tle, Wash., which is my hometown, learning something about our 
Constitution; and I had to come home from the grade school at La- 
Fayette, occasionally, to memorize things like the preamble, the sec- 
tion from the Declaration of Independence, perhaps tlie first amend- 
ment. As a little boy, these were big words and they didn't mean 
much to me. But my father took time out to explain some of the 
meaning back of things like "a more perfect Union, establish justice, 
insure domestic tranquillity," "Congress shall make no law," and so 
forth, "We, the people of the United States." 

These became, through my father's help, very, very important 
words, so important that, when I started really composing, I started 
setting a lot of them to music. The Declaration of Inclependence : 
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created 
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalien- 
able rights." That is a tough word to set to music. But it appears 
in my publication. Ballad for Americans, 

Mr. Arens. Why did you, then, join an organization that was dedi- 
cated to the overthrow of the Constitution ? 

Mr, Popper, Why do you not let the witness finish ? 

Mr, Moulder. As I understand, he refused to answer the question, 
and he is now giving his reasons for refusing to answer. 



778 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. EoBiNSOx. That is right. 

Mr. Moulder. Proceed as quickly as possible, please. 

Mr. Robinson. I am trying to show that the Constitution meant 
enough to me that I set it to music, that I put it into composition. 
This has been my inspiration for my Avork from the very, very begin- 
ning, when I first started music, Avhen I first graduated from the 
university, came to New York, and so forth. I have sung the first 
amendment at concerts. This piece that I spoke about, the Ballad 
for Americans, has several sections of the Constitution in it, to music. 
So it is precious to me ; it is veiy, very precious. 

It so happens that I never have set the fifth amendment to music, the 
sixth, or the ninth, or tenth, all of which I recognize as interesting and 
good ones. But I have made very many songs, and developed a 20- 
minute cantata on Abraham Lincoln, out of the 13th, 14th, and 15th 
amendments, the struggle of the Negro people to be truly free and 
equal. I am working on an opera on this subject riglit now. 

Anyway, when a time like this comes, when I am called before an 
un-American committee — pardon me, before a Committee on Un- 
American Activities — I not only rely on my American rights under 
this Constitution, but when I see, when I feel I see, any of this Con- 
stitution threatened, and I believe no matter how sincere you gentle- 
men are and feel you are, you are deeply wrong with this kind of activ- 
ity, calling up people and destroying in many, many 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I tliink that this gentleman has had 
plenty of time to read us a lecture, and then calling this committee an 
un-American committee, wliich he deliberately did. I think there is 
a need for a call for regular order and have him answer the question. 
We have given him now a chance to get his speech before the press 
and so forth. I think we ought to call him to a halt, just as we have 
other witnesses. Let them confine themselves to plead their constitu- 
tional privilege, if that is what they want. 

Mr. McIntosh. You are almost through, are you? 

Mr, Robinson. I am. 

Mr, MoIntosh. Would you move along, then ? 

Mr, Robinson. I simply w\anted to make the point that I am not 
just trying to cloak myself in the Constitution, as has been sometimes 
said in front of these committees; but I feel that what I am doing is 
the same thing as President Eisenhower- — and every President before 
him has done when they are sworn into office — wlien he said, "I swear 
to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United 
States." I feel this is what I am doing in now relying on tlie Consti- 
tution in refusing to answer tliis kind of question, which I feel in- 
vades, which moves into fields that bring me into disrepute, tiy to 
make me look like a subversive when I am not, wlien I am deeply 
American. So I will have to decline to answer. 

Mr. Moulder. You decline to answer that, claiming your privilege 
under the first and fifth amendments of the Constitution? 

Mr. Robinson. All the amendments, all the Constitution ; every one. 

Mr. Arens. Now, tell the committee the answer to this question, in 
view of your great championshi]) of the Constitution: Did you join 
an organization dedicated to the destruction of the Constitution of the 
United States? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 779 

Mr. Robinson. Xo; not to my knowledge; I never did. 

Mr. x\rens. Did yon join the Comninnist Party? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully sutrgest that counsel be admonished that 
his sole and exclusive prerogative is to advise the witness of his con- 
stitutional rights, because I distinctly overheard counsel now telling 
tlie witness what to say. 

Now, sir, kindlv tell the connnittee : Did vou join the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Moui.DER. Counsel has the right of advising and conferring 
with the witness under the rules of the committee. 

Mr. Popper. Thank you, Mr. Chainnan. 

Mr. Frazier. The counsel did speak out so that everybody in the 
courtroom heard it. 

Mr. Arens. I heard the counsel give him the answer to say just 
tlien. 

Mr. Frazier. And the witness put it in verbatim, word for word. 

Mr. ]\IoiTi.DER. It is very difficult to draw a line, when you are advis- 
ing 3^our client concerning testimony, whether you are trying to put 
answers into his mouth or not. Proceed. 

Mr. Arens. Did you join the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Robinson. I clearly am not going to answer this kind of ques- 
tion, under the same grounds as T said before. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to invite your attention to a little matter 
that you could probably help us with, if you want to serve your Gov- 
ernment. 

In tlie Communist Daily Worker of March 30, 19.53, we see an article 
about a memorial lauding Stalin's work for peace. There was a 
rally, the article tells us, which was held, a memorial to Joseph Stalin, 
hailing him, not primarilv as a leader of the Russian people, but as 
"Our Stalin." 

In the course of that rally, Earl Robinson's inspiring words were 
quoted : 

Sleep well, beloved comrade ; we pledge onr bodies now. The fight will go on ; 
the fight will go on until we win. 

Now look at this article, if you please, Mr. Robeson 

Mr. Robinson. Robinson is the name. 

Mr. Arens. Robinson ? 

Mr. Robinson. R-o-b-i-n-s-o-n. 

Mr. Arens. Robeson recited. I am in error. Robeson recited Earl 
Robinson's words, and you are Earl Robinson, are you not? 

Mr. Robinson. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in attendance when Robeson recited the words 
of yourself : 

Sleep well, beloved comrade: we pledge our bodies now. The fight will go 
on ; the fight will go on until we win. 

Kindly look at that article, if 3^011 will, sir, and tell this committee 
whether those are the words of you, Earl Robinson, that are quoted by 
Robeson ? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. "Wliat is the question, please ? 

Mr. Arens. Did you write the words that are quoted there ? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 



780 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

(Document marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 1," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Were yon in attendance at that meeting ? 

Mr. EoBiNSON. I don't remember. 

Mr. DoTLE. "\^^iat year was that ? How long ago ? 

Mr. Robinson. It says March 30, 1953. 

Mr. Doyle. It is not very long ago for a man of 3'onr brilliancy 
to remember whether or not you were present. 

Mr. Robinson. I really don't remember. I think probably I wasn't. 
If this was quoting words of something that I never even wrote — 
first of all, I usually don't write words. I write music. This is poor 
research. 

Mr. Doyle. Isn't that a photostat of an article in the Connnunist 
paper ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. There is not very poor research on that, Mr. Robinson. 
It is pretty accurate. That is a photostat of an original document. 

Mr. Arens. Are you connected, or have you been connected, with 
the National Council of American-Soviet Friendship? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. On advice, I decline to answer this for the same 
reasons as before. 

Mr. Arens. We display to you now, if you please, sir, thermofax 
reproductions of letterlieads and accompanying lists of s))onsors of 
the National Council of American-Soviet Friendsliip, Inc., in which 
your name, Earl Robinson, appears. 

Kindly look at those documents and tell this committee v>-hether 
they truly and accurately describe 3'our connection. 

(Documents handed to the witness.) 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. I decline to answer, sir. I iiotice John Caslimore 
on thei-e. lie maybe could atford to admit it. 

Mr. Frazier. You liave the same reason you gave before for de- 
clining? 

Mr. Robixsox. ^>s, sir. 

(Documents marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 2," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Doyle. Counsel, as long as you have shown the witness an 
exhibit of the National (^ouncil of American-Soviet Friendship, on 
Avhich his name appears as a sponsor, I think at this point it might 
be well for all the INIembers of Congress wlio read the report of this 
hearing, to note that on page Gl of the Guide to Subversive Organi- 
zations and Publications, revised January 2, 1957, the National 
Council of American-Soviet Friendship is described as follows : 

1. Cited as subversive and Communist (Attorney General Tom Clark, letters 
to Loyalty Review Board, released September 4, 1047, and September 21, 1948). 

2. "In recent months, the Communist Party's principal front for all things 
Russian has been known as the National Council for American-Soviet Friend- 
ship." (Special Committee on Un-American Activities, House Report 1311 on 
the CIO Political Action Committee, March 29, 1944, p. 156.) 

3. Cited as specializing in pro-Soviet propaganda. (Internal Security Sub- 
committee of the Senate .Tudiciary Committee, Handbook for Americans, S. 
Doc. 117, April 23, 1956, p. 91.) 

4. Found to be a '■Communist-front organization" and ordered to register 
as such with the Attorney General of the United States. (Subversive Activ- 
ities Control Board, decision of February 7, 1956.) 



COMMUNISM IN INIETROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 7S1 

So this organization, which this witness apparently sponsors, is not 
only cited by this committee but by the Subversive Activities Control 
Board of the United States Government as late as February 7, 195G. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall affixing your signature to an appeal re- 
questing tlie then President of the United States to grant amnesty 
to the leaders of the Communist Party who had been convicted under 
1 he Smith Act, in 1952 ? 

JNIr. Robinson. Pardon me. 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. Well, the real truth is that I don't remember. I am 
sure that I must have, since you have a nice piece of paper there. 
I have given my name very, very often. Maybe in some cases too 
often. I mean, I could say this. But I simply would like to say 
that, generally speaking, as far as this is concerned, I am opposed to 
the Smith Act. I think tliis is another kind of an act of Congress 
that has come out of this whole period of hysteria that I think is bad 
for America. If I signed it, I probably meant it. 

Mr. Arens. Perhaps this would refresh your recollection. 

We will display a photostatic reproduction of the Communist Daily 
Worker of December 10, 1952, in which your name ai)pears as one of 
the signers of this appeal to which I have just alluded. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly look at that and see if that refreshes 
your recollection ^ 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson, I see I am in very good company ; 280 names. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall that incident ? 

Mr. Robinson. I accept that as true. I accept tliat. 

(Document marked ''Robinson Exhibit No. 3," and retained in 
committee tiles.) 

Mr. Arens. Tell us, if you please, how do 3'ou counterattack with 
art, counterattack against thought control? How do you do that 
with art ? Can you help us on that ? 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mv. Robinson. Could you make it more specific? I don't know 
what you are trying to talk about. 

Mr. Arens. Yes, I will be specific. I have here a thermofax re- 
production of a bulletin "Thought Control in U. S. A.," and at the 
back end of it, "Earl Robinson, composer," in which Robinson, the 
composer, calls upon people who read this to "Join tlie PCA. Coun- 
terattack with our art" against what is characterized liere as thought 
control. 

I want you, a musician, a prominent musician, to tell this committee, 
and via this committee the United States Congress, how art is used 
to counterattack against what you have characterized as thought 
control. 

Kindly look at that document and see if it refreshes your recollec- 
tion as to your announcement to the world of counterattack against 
thought control. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

Mr. Doyle. May I suggest this to the witness, while he is prepar- 
ing or considering his answer : 

As long as you have stated that you were and are opposed to the 
Smith Act, is the Internal Security Act included in that ? How would 



782 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC, 

you use art to counterattack against the Internal Security Act of 
our Nation ? You might inchide that, too. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson, I believe in what I told you in the beginning, which 
is that America has deep fomitains of strength which grow out of 
our struggle as a Nation to free ourselves in the begimiing, to develop 
the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I believe this is a gi'and and 
a tremendous country. 

When I say the word "struggle," it is because things happened that 
need criticism, that need fixing. The Civil War was such a fixing. 
We have had a continuous history of this kind of thing. 

In my music, as a composer witli a feeling for America, I try, 
wherever possible, and certainly quite often, to make the music serve 
America in a better way. I consider that this composition of mine, 
"Ballad for Americans," wliich I teach to my kids at the Metropoli- 
tan Music School and which in 1940 was sung at the Republican Na- 
tional Convention, considered by them also good enough to be a part 
of that convention, I consider that this music counterattacks, if you 
want to call it that, against things which would destroy the faith and 
the decency of the people to make it create informers, make a giiy like 
this come up here this morning and name names. That is just part 
of it. I suppose I could go a long time on that line. 

(Document marked "Robinson Exliibit No. 4," and retained in 
connnittee files,) 

Mr, Arens. Did you use your art to counterattack in the Span- 
ish civil war? 

Mr. Robinson. I wouldn't be surprised. 

Mr. Arens. You mentioned Abraliam Lincoln a while ago. Did 
you use your art to write music on the Abraham Lincoln Bi'igade 
which fought in Spain? 

Mr. Robinson. I think some of my music was used in Spain. I am 
proud to say it was. 

Mr. Arens. You ai-e helping the committee. We are glad to find 
out how people wlio are in your status do use art in the fight to obtain 
their objectives. 

Mr. RdfBiNSON. I hope my music will always be used in the figjlit 
against fascism. 

Mr. Arens. Have you Avritten any pieces to be used against com- 
munism ? 

Mr. Robinson, Pardon me. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr, Robinson, What is this? What was the question? 

Mr. Arens, You said a moment ago, something to the effect that 
you were glad to have your music used in the fight agamst fascism. 
Have you written any pieces to be used in the fight against com- 
munism? 

Mr. Robinson. The committee's chief interest, as I understand, is 
the subject of communism and Communists and so forth, and getting 
into a political situation in which anything that I deeply believe, 
then can be questioned and turned and used against me. So it seems 
to me 

Mr, Arens. Is fascism political or is it something different from 
political ? 

Mr, Robinson. What? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 788 

Mr. Arens. You don't have any hesitancy at all in condemn in<]:; 
fascism and taking pride in the fact that your music is used against 
fascism. 

Mr. RoBixsoN. I said specifically in Spain, and so forth. 

Mr. Arexs. Yes. Now tell us about anything you have clone in the 
use of art as a weapon, and your music as a weapon, in this global 
struggle in whicii the West and the East are engaged in international 
communism, godless, atheistic conununism ; tell us what you have done 
to use your art to engage in that struggle against communism. 

Mr. RoBiKsox. I liave gone on singing Ballad for Americans, the 
Tvonesome Train, the story of Lincoln's funeral train, which carried 
his body from Washington to Springfield. It has the lines at the end 
of it, "Freedom is a thing that has no ending. Tt needs to be cared 
for; it needs defending." That is what I believe in. 'I'his is what I 
am doing witli my music all tlie time. T haven't sto])ped. 

Mr. Arkxs. Were you inspired to Avrite any songs condenniing the 
Soviet invasion and massacre in Hungary '? 

(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. RoKixsox. !My lawyer feels that this line of questioning should 
be stopped. So I will decline to answer that. 

Ml-. ]MouLDER. For what reasons ? The same reasons ? 

(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.) 

Mr. RoBiNsox. The same reasons. 

Mr. ]M()ur.DER. The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes. 

(Members present at the taking of the recess: Representatives 
Morgan M. ^loulder, Clyde Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., and Robert J. 
Mcintosh.) 

(Thereupon, a brief recess was taken.) 

Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will come to order. Proceed witli 
youi- interrogation of the witness. 

Mr. Arexs. Can you tell us what songs you wrote, or in what maimer 
you used youi- art — to ]:>ai-a])hrase your language in this exhibit — to 
assist the Abraham Lincoln Brigade forces in Spain ? 

Mr. RoBTx^sox. I don't remember writing any s})ecific songs for 
Spain. But T was very, very ])roud wlien I heard that two of my songs, 
amono- others, I guess, were sung over there. One was a song called 
Joe Hill. 

Ml". Akex\s. Who sang them ^ Can you recall ? 

Mr. RoBixsox. I liave no idea. 

Mr. Popper. Let him finish his answer. 

Mr. RoBrx'sox^ Another one was called Abe Lincoln, in which T 
set some of the I'resident's first inaugural address to nnisic. This Avas 
the brigade that went ovei' to figlit on the side of the Spanisli Loy- 
alists, so they used tliis song. This was based on Lincoln's words, 
''This country with its institutions belongs to people who inhabit it," 
and so foi'th. 

Mr. Arex\s. Tell us, in view of your statement here about countei-- 
attacking with art. is art a Dotent wea]X)n in the ideological differences 
between, say, the East and the West? Is art a potent weapon? 

Mr. RoBixsox". I think art is a potent weapon for understanding, 
for making this a better world. T think it is a potent weapon to help 
to get along with each other. 

]Mr. Arexs. Would art be a potent weapon, say, in the hands of 
the Soviet Union, in undertaking to propagate its ideology ? 



784 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr, Robinson. AVell, I suppose Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony 
or Seventh Symphony, which was performed over here in wartime 
when we were fighting together, I suppose this was propaganda for 
the Soviet Union. It is pretty good. The symphonies are still being 
played, you know. I don't think that he was trying to subvert the 
United States with the Seventh Symphony. I think he was trying to 
help his own country, but that symphony was played here in Carnegie 
Hall, and it was played in all the major symphony orchestras in the 
country, and it was good. 

Mr. Arens. To pursue the matter that you opened up a while ago, 
how can art be used as a weapon, let us say, against fascism ? How 
could art or how is art used as a weaj^on against fascism ? Give us the 
techniques of it. 

Mr. Robinson. I have no idea along this line except what I told 
you before. Some of the men who went over to Spain to fight sang 
some of my songs, and I was happy about it. 

Mr. Arens. Could artists, prominent artists, say such as yourself, 
who bear a fine reputation in the field of music, just as a great star 
bears a fine reputation in the field of motion pictures and the like, 
could a great artist, by lending his name to a cause, serve the cause 
of antifascism just by signing petitions and by letting his name be 
used on various organizations' letterheads? Could he serve the cause 
of antifascism ? Can you help us on that ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. Well, it seems to me that my answer, of necessity, 
Avould be yes; but I do not care to go into this particular discussion of 
how my name or somebody's name is going to help or hurt a cause. 
"Wliat would this 

Mr. Arens. We w\ant you to go into it. You have said here that 
art is a potent weapon to counterattack, or something like that. 
"We are going to counterattack with our art against thought control," 
and the like. I want you to tell us how. You have talked also about 
what you have done to serve the cause of antifascism ; it is very com- 
mendable to oppose fascism. Now we want you to tell us how a 
prominent musician, prominent artist, can serve the cause of anti- 
fascism by lending his name to various moA^emeuts. Can vou help us 
on that? * 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. I am not talking about names. I am mainly speak- 
ing about music. I do not care to go into the business of lending a 
name here and there and so forth. 

Mr. Arens. Can an artist help a cause, a prominent artist, a promi- 
nent musician, by endorsing movements for antifascism? 

Mr. Robinson. I am sorry ; I don't quite understand. 

Mr. Moulder. May I clarify this ? The question, of course, calls for 
an opinion, an expression of an opinion on your part. If you have 
one, and you feel free and care to give it, express your opinion. If 
not, state that you have no opinion. 

Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, I want not only his opinion, but I want 
his experience. He has told us — he has commended himself as an out- 
standing composer. I am not in a position to either confirm or deny it. 
I do not know. But he has also told us of his activities against 
fascism. I would like liim to tell us, not only from the standpoint of 
liis opinion, but from the standpoint of his own experience. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 785 

Mr. Moulder. If you know of specific instances and facts and cases 
where you can answer the question properly, do so, 

(The witness conferred with his counseL) 

Mr. RoiiixsoN. Well, in the area of opinion, I don't see what good 
this can do to serve this committee or anything. If you want to ask 
me about specific songs, I will be glad to answer you. I wrote a lot 
of stuff during the war against fascism. I wrote a whole 

Mr. Aeens. I have an issue of People's Songs when j^ou were on 
the board of directors. This is the issue of February-March 1947. 
Here is wliat they say in People's Songs : 

Among the first year's most successful projects were the classes in the use of 
music for political action, which People's Songs gave at N. C.-P. A. C. schools in 
AVashingtou, D. C, Chicago, Boston, New Haven, New York, and Detroit — 

And so forth. 

According to this issue of People's Songs, you are on the board of 
directors. Please tell this committee about "the use of music for 
political action." 

These are the words taken from People's Songs. How do you use 
music for political action ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. Music has been used for political action all through 
our history. 

(Document marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 5" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Tell us how. 

Mr. Robinson. John Brown's Body is one of the most famous songs 
which, in advance, helped to produce the Civil War and was sung by 
the soldiers during the war. There are dozens of examples. In the 
American Revolution, if you will pardon the expression, there was 
tremendous songs that came out. The Bennington Riflemen, the story 
of our forefathers that shot at the Redcoats from behind trees, and 
so forth. 

Mr. Arens. Is music an effective weapon in political action ? 

Mr. Robinson. I am not sure how effective it is, but it has been 
used a lot. 

Mr. Arens. Was it used for political action in the People's Songs 
book? I have here the song The Gol-dern Red, by Bob Claiborne. 
He was before the committee yesterday. The song reads : 

I went up to my boss one day to ask him for a raise. He wept and said he 
didn't have the dough. Well, I knew for all his crying that that plutocrat 
was lying. And that's just what I told the so-and-so. And what d'ya think 
he said? Why you're nothing but a Gol-dern Red (straight from Russia). 
You're nothing but a Gol-dern Red. Yes, and if the truth be told, you're re- 
ceiving Moscow gold. Yes, you're nothing but a Gol-dern Red. 

Is that a song that you would regard as part of a song for political 
action ? 

Mr. Robinson. I don't know if there is anything very political 
about it. It so happens I didn't write it, and I think I am not sure 
that I would have written one like that. But I sort of smiled when 
you read it a couple of days ago, and I smiled again today. I think 
it is interesting. 

(Document previously designated "Claiborne Exhibit No. 1," re- 
tained in committee files.) 



786 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL^ INC. 

Mr. Akens. The purpose of that song, obviously, is to have an im- 
pact on the mind that there is false accusation of people being Com- 
munists, isn't it^ That is the whole import of that song, from the 
standpoint of political action ? 

Mr. Robinson. I suggest you interpret it. 

Mr. Arens. I should like to ask you, if you please, sir, about some 
other activities. 

I have here the Herald Tribune of October 10, 1943. The musicians 
committee of the National Council of American-Soviet Friendship 
will do certain things. This musicians committee is composed of a 
number of people, including Earl Robinson. 

Kindly look at that thermofax reproduction of tliat article and tell 
us whether or not you recall your membership on the musicians com- 
mittee of the National Council of American-Soviet Friendship. 

(A document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. I already declined to answer this kind of question 
before— there are a lot of good names there — but I am, on my grounds 
as I stated before, the grounds of the Constitution. 

(Document marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 6," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell this committee how the musicians com- 
mittee would serve the objectives of the National Council of Ameri- 
can-Soviet Friendship '^ 

Mr. Robinson. The same answer. 

Mr. Arens. What is a revolutionary song? Could you help us on 
that? 

Mr. Robinson. "The Bennington Rifles," the one I mentioned be- 
fore, part of the American Revolution, that said, "Oh, the rifle, the 
rifle, in our hands will prove no trifle." They ai'e talking about the 
Redcoats who came over liere, and so fortli. I call that a revolu- 
tionary song. 

Mr. Arens. Are there any revolutionary songs from the Soviet 
Union that particularly come to your mind ? 

Mr. Robinson. The Soviet Union has a lot of them, I assume. 
You know. 

Mr. Arens. You wrote about some of the revolutionary songs from 
the Soviet Union, did you not, in a publication called America Sings 
issued by the Workers Bookshop ? 

Mr. Robinson. T am going to decline to answer this for the same 
reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Let me display to you, if you please, sir, a thermofax 
reproduction of the bulletin, America Sings, issued by the Workers 
Bookshop. There is a foreword to that publication by Earl Robin- 
son, in which you talk about, among other things, revolutionary 
songs, and list some of the countries from wliich these revolutionary 
songs emanate, including the Soviet Union. 

Kindly look at that document and see if that will refresh your 
recollection with reference to your authorship of that publication. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. I don't think we should waste any more time on 
this. This is an attempt to draw me into a political -discussion field 
and stuff that goes way, way back and so forth. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 787 

Mr. ^\jiENS. Do you decline to answer the question? 

Mr. Robinson. Right. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly give a reason for declining to 
answer? 

Mr. Robinson. The same reason as before. 

(Document marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 7,'' and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee 
truthfully whether or not you authored this article which I have just 
displayed to you with reference to the revolutionary songs emanating 
from a number of countries, including Soviet Russia, you would be 
supplying information that might be used against you in a criminal 
proceeding? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. It might. 

Mr. Doyle. May I see that exhibit, please, Mr. Arens ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. Mr. Robinson, how old are these children 
you teach ? 

Mr. Robinson. Between 6 and 11, and then a sort of teen-age group 
that goes up to about 14. 

Mr. Arens. Do you teach them any revolutionary songs? 

Mr. Robinson. This is what I teach, you — I commend this again to 
you [indicating] — the I^allad for Americans, and the Lonesome 
Train. Some are my compositions, some American folksongs. Some- 
times we go across the border and take a foreign folksong, too. I 
explain to them that this is for the purpose of getting to understand 
otlier countries better. As Mr. Doyle said the other day, music is an 
international language. 

Mr. Doyle. A universal language. 

Mr. Robinson. Pardon me, A universal language. 

Mr. DoYT.E. I am not an authority on music, but I know that much 
about it. 

Mr. Robinson. O. K. 

Mr. Arens. I have here a thermof ax reproduction of the Communist 
Daily Worker of January 20, 19,54. I would like to ask you about 
this : 

The role of "The Artist and the Professioual ill the Age of McCarthy" is the 
theme of the fifth annual convention of the New York Council of the Arts, 
Sciences, and Professions, to be held here January 29, .30, and 31, Director Marvel 
Cooke announced yesterday. 

According to the article there will be four diiferent panels on 
the role of artists and professions in this age of McCarthy, including 
Earl Robinson as one of the speakers. 

Could you look at this article and tell us, first of all, whether or 
not you are accurately described as one of the speakers on the sub- 
ject as set forth in the article ? 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(Witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. Well, I don't know how long you are going to go 
with this. This is clearly mine. I don't remember now all the things 
that I said at this particular panel, but I am sure that I was there, 
like I have, you know, been appearing hundreds of times, and I am 
not going to- 

91198 — 57— pt. 2 3 



788 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

(Document marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 8," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Thank you. Do you recall appearing as an artist at 
a concert on behalf of Morton Sobell, the j^oung scientist in Alcatraz, 
who was connected with the Eosenbergs ? Do you recall using your 
art in that respect ? 

Mr. Robinson. I think that this questioning has gone on enough. 
I don't know how valuable the Government's time and money is, 
but you have gotten a picture of me, it seems to me. When you 
start moving into fields where somewhere along the line I will answer 
something that, because of the whole atmosphere that you have set 
up — every time you talk about any one of these organizations, you 
say "connected up with the Connnunist conspiracy," and so forth — 
because of this, I don't think I shall answer any more of these kind 
of things on the basis of the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you a thermofax repro- 
duction of the Communist Daily Worker of Thursday, January 22, 
1954. According to this article, there will be a concert featuring a 
new ballad about Morton Sobell, sponsored by the Bronx Committee 
To Secure Justice for Morton Sobell in the Rosenberg Case. Per- 
forming artists will include Earl Robinson. 

Kindly look at this thermofax reproduction of the article, from 
the Daily Worker, and tell us, first of all, whether or not that re- 
freshes your recollection of the use of your art in this enterprise. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. I am declining on the same grounds I said before 
to ans^A'er this kind of question. I made my position clear, didn't I, 
before ? 

(Document marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 9," and retained in 
committee files. ) 

Mr. Arens. Do j^ou honestly feel, sir, that if you told this com- 
mittee truthfully whether or not you participated in this concert, 
you would be supplying information which might be used against you 
in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Robinson. It might. I am sure you can go on all night with 
tliis, but I think it is a waste of time from now on. 

Mr. Arens. I would say on the basis of all of these exhibits, we 
probably could go on quite awhile. 

Do you instruct at the Jefferson School of Social Science? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. What do you mean ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. As far as I know, that is not even in existence. 

Mr. Arens. Have you instructed, or led discussion groups, at the 
Jefferson School of Social Science? 

Mr. Robinson, My lawyer says I should decline. O. K., I decline. 
I decline to answer. The same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I want to display to you a thermofax reproduction 
of the Communist Daily Worker of Tuesday, April 6, 1954, reading: 

Earl Robinson will lead a discussion on "Folk Music and the Contemporary 
Composer" this evening (Tuesday) at the Jefferson School, 16th Street and Sixth 
Avenue, at 6 : 40 p. m. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 789 

Kindly look at that article and see if it refreshes your recollection 
with reference to that panel at the Jefferson School of Social Science. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred Avith his counsel.) 

Mr. RoBixsox. I decline. 

Mr. Arexs. Why? 

Mr. RoBixsox\ Do I make my speech about the Constitution again, 
liow much it means to me? I am not going to let you destroy either 
the first or fifth amendment with this kind of insinuation. Somehow 
I am made out to be subversive, and I refuse to be. I am not. 

Mr. ]MouLDER. You claim the protection of the first and fifth amend- 
ments in declining to answer ? 

Mr. RoBixsox^ Yes. 

(Document marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 10," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. Do you recall in 105?) i:)articipating as an entertainei- 
for a Freedom Festival, s]:)onsored by the Civil Rights Congress in 
Philadelphia? 

Mr. RoBixsox^. The same answer. 

Mr. Akexs. I have here an article [Daily Worker, June 11. 1953] 
in which your name appears as the entertainer, 1 of 2 entertainers, at 
a rally addressed by Elizabeth (xurley Flynn, one of the New York 
Smith Act defendants, and William Albertson, one of the Pittsburgh 
defendants, in a "Freedom Festival" sponsored by the Civil Rights 
Congress. 

Kindly look at this article and tell this committee, while you are 
under oath, whether or not you lent your name and prestige to that 
enterprise. 

( Document handed to the witness. ) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. RoBiNsox. You know, I have a lot of press clippings of my own 
at home, I should have brought them along. I can back everyone of 
those you have with one of mine at a university, or all kinds of places. 
I mean, I don't see that this is serving any purpose any more with this 
question. 

Mr, Arexs. We are concerned at the moment of pursuing the theme 
that you established in your writings, that art and artists can be 
used as a political weapon. 

Mr. Moulder. Does the witness decline to answer that question ? 

Mr. RoBixsox. Yes. 

Mr. Moulder, And for the same reasons previously stated? 

Mr. RoBix'sox^. For the same reasons; that is right. 

(Document marked "Robinson Exhibit No. il," and retained in 
committees files.) 

Mr. Arens. Have you been active as a sponsor for various enter- 
prises of the iVmerican Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ? 
Have you lent your name and your prestige as an outstanding com- 
poser to that enterprise ? 

Mr. RoBixsox. May I ask is there anything wrong with this com- 
mittee ? Have they been cited ? 

]\Ir. Arens. The American Committee for Protection of Foreign 
Born has been cited as one of the oldest Communist fronts in the 
Nation; yes, sir. 

Mr, RoBixsox. Then I decline to answer. 



790 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Just for the purpose of identification of these exhibits, 
so that tliey may be incorporated by reference in the record pursuant 
to the general order of the chairman, I respectfully display to you 
these two exhibits from the Communist Daily Worker, and also a 
thennofax reproduction of a release from the American Committee 
for Protection of Foreign Born, bearing your name as one of the 
sponsors ; also at this time a photostatic reproduction of a letter on the 
letterhead of the National Conference To Eepeal the Walter-McCarran 
Law and Defend Its Victims, in which your name appears as a confer- 
ence sponsor. 

(Documents handed to tlie witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. It is a terrible shame that I cannot speak freely. 

Ml'. Arens. We should be very happy to have you do so. 

Mr. Robinson. It is a terrible shame that the atmosphere that this 
committee has set up in this country is such that a person renders 
himself subject to possible prosecution and all the rest of that, if he 
can't answer certain things. There are many, many things that I am 
proud of in my past. 

(Documents marked "Robinson Exhibit No. 12,"' and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Let's make tlie record clear. Do you honestly feel, sir, 
that if you told this committee truthfully, while you are under oath, 
whether or not you lent your name and your prestige to the National 
Conference To "Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law^ and to the Ameri- 
can Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, you w^ould be supply- 
ing information which might be used against you in a criminal 
proceeding ? 

Mr. Robinson. Unfortunately ; it might. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Have you an}^ questions, Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I want to ask you one question. 

First I wish to say this, however: You stated a few minutes ago 
that you lent your name to many things. It may be that you have lent 
your name to some of these groups that have been cited as subversive 
without knowing, on your part, that they had been cited or that they 
were subversive, according to Government records. I do not know. 
You know better than I do. 

But I would suggest to you, as a young American, that if your name 
has been abused because of your ability and your profession, maybe it 
is a thing that you had better protect, because it is certainly a thing of 
great value, and now you are certainly put on notice about many of 
these groups with which you have been identified. You have appar- 
ently clipped newspaper clippings for your own album, because you 
have just said that you could match all we hnve [)roduced from your 
own album. Apparently you are proud of the newspaper clippings 
that we have produced for your inspection here, because you have 
clipped them for your own album. 

Mr. Robinson. I said I could match with other types of clippings, 
as well «s these. 

Mr. Doyle. Well, I don't think I mistook what you said. 

In other words, you make a collection of newspaper clippings, 
similar to those we produce here. I suggest to you as a man, appar- 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 791 

ently of great ability, that you watch your name, because there are 
some men about your age and a little bit younger who gave their lives 
in uniform so that fellows like you and I might live. They didn't do 
it to perpetuate the Soviet system of connnunism in this country. 

Mr. RoBiNSOx. Neither did I. 

Mr. DoYLK. Of couise, I remember that yoii deliberately named 
this committee in your statement as an un-American conmiittee. That 
is your appraisal of your conunittee of Congress that is before you, an 
un-American committee. You did it deliberately. And you haven't 
denied it. I have given you three chances to say it was a mistake, and 
you have not. 

Mr. Robinson. I corrected myself. 

Mr. Doyle. Yes ; you did, deliberately. I noticed it. That is your 
appraisal of your Congress. Your Congress, in the very act that you 
say you are opposed to, declared, in the introduction to the act : 

There exists a world Communist movement which in its origin, its practice, is 
a worldwide revolutionary movement. 

May I have that pamphlet, America Sings ^ 1 was raised, too. 
to recognize music as the universal language. That is why I dared 
say that yesterday or the day before wdien you were here in the room. 
I believe it sincerely. In noticing your introduction or the introduc- 
tion to the booklet America Sings, wdiich has your name printed on 
it— but wiiich you did not admit authoring, you pleaded the fifth 
amendment — -I want to call your attention to an introduction printed 
on that 5-cent pamphlet. I notice it costs 5 cents. This, of course, 
helps circulation. 

I want to call something to the attention of the record that I think 
is significant. The only reference in the introduction, ai)parently 
made by a man with your name, is to revolutionary songs from 
foreign countries, emphasizing the Soviet Union and (xermany. 
There isn't a single American song called to attention in that intro- 
duction. I do not know^ why. Well, I can see why. I can see why 
someone with a clever thought used the title "America Sings" and 
then put nothing in there except Russian and German revolutionaiT 
songs. There is not an American song called to attention. And yet 
they call it America sings. And that is the kind of Soviet pro])aganda 
that is infiltrating our country. 

I have one thing more, Mr. Robinson. Can you show me in your 
writings, and I ask you in good faith, one single song upholding and 
promoting loyalty to the Stars and Stripes, to the American flag? 

Mr. Robinson. Everything I have written does this. 

Mr. Doyle. Show me one in wording, where you emphasize in your 
lovely music and prose and poetry, where you urge the American 
people to u])hold the Stars and Stripes. I didn't see one in that 
ballad. 

Mr. Robinson. It seems to me that these lines that I quoted to you 
before say this. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you find where you urge the American people to 
u])hold the Constitution and the Stars and Stripes, where you are 
telling the American schoolchildren 'I 

Mr. Robinson. Do you mean my quoting, "We hold these truths 
to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are en- 
dowed by their Creator", I am just fooling around with tliat? 



792 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Doyle. That is quoting. I mean where you write a poem your- 
self. My point is this: Show me one poem or one song where you 
have deliberately set to music or otherwise, that the American school- 
children, for instance, or the Americans, shall support the Constitu- 
tion, and so forth. Do you see what I am getting at ? 

Mr. Robinson. I have a song called. The House I Live In. That 
is America to me. It has sold millions and millions of copies. It has 
been sung by most of the big singers in the country at one time or 
another. This says : 

What js America to me? A name, a map, the flag I see, a certain word, 
democracy. What is America to me? The house I live in. The plot of earth, 
the street, the grocer and the butcher, the people that I meet. 

The middle section goes on, the words of old Abe Lincoln, of Jeffer- 
son and Payne, of Washington and Roosevelt. 

Mr. Doyle. Mail me a copy and I will pay you for it, gladly. 

Mr. Robinson. The biggest line in it is "A dream that has been 
growing for 150 years." This has been sung. School kids know it. 
You should know it. 

Mr. Doyle. ^Vliy, then, do you tear down this theory by this sort 
of thing? Why do you tear down that magnificent conception of 
our country ? 

Mr. Robinson. I am not tearing down. I never have torn down. 

Mr. Doyle. I beg to dill'er with you. I say mail me a copy of that, 
and I will pay you for it, gladly. 

Mr. Arens. I want to clear the record on one thing. 

Are you now a Communist ? 

Mr. Robinson. Do you expect me to answer that ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes; I would lilce to have you deny it while you are 
under oath. 

Mr. Robinson. For the same answei', for the same reasons, that I 
don't feel this committee has a right to pry into these kind of things, 
and also to try to make me seem subversive, when every bit of work 
I have done in my life has been in defense of America and helping- 
America, I feel that you have no right to try to put me in that kind 
of light, and I decline to answer for the same reasons as before. 

Mr. Arens. If you gave a truthful answer to that question, would 
you be supplying information which might be used against you in a 
criminal proceeding? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Robinson. Obviously. I wouldn't have taken it, 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions? Mr. Mcintosh? 

Mr, McIntosh. I have no questions, 

Mr, Moulder, Mr, Frazier ? 

Mr, Frazier, No questions, 

Mr, Moulder, Referring to the publication referred to by Mr. 
Doyle, America Sings, this document has been offered, of course, 
as sort of an advertisement, and is not a document containing the 
songs which you refer to in this foreword, I am just referring to 
this document which was referred to by Mr, Doyle, I say it is not 
a document containing the songs, 

Mr, Robinson, It is just the words? 



COMMUNISM IN ]\IETROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 793 

Mr. Moulder. It is just the foreword referring to the songs, and 
in which, of course, the foreword says: 

There are old American folksongs here, sung by the people for decades. 
There are songs of the Negro people, of the old migratory workers, and the 
I. W. W.'s. There are marching songs and revolutionary songs from countries 
like Ireland, the Soviet Union, and Germany. Songs of eight different nations 
are represented. 

That is correct ; is it not ? 

Mr. Robinson. I liave already denied this. I am sorry. I mean, 
I have already declined to answer. I am sorry. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is excused. 

The committee will stand in recess until 1 : 30 p. m. 

(Thereupon, at 12 noon, the committee recessed, to reconvene at 
1 : 30 p. m., the same day.) 

(Members present at the time of the recess: Representatives 
Moulder, Doyle, Frazier, and Mcintosh.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION— THURSDAY, APRIL 11, 1957 

(Members present at the convening of the afternoon session were : 
Representatives Clyde Doyle (presiding), James B. Frazier, Jr., and 
Robert J. Mcintosh.) 

Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will come to order. 

Let the record sliow that a quorum of the subcommittee is present, 
the quorum consisting of Mr. Frazier, Mr. Mcintosh, and myself, Mr. 
Doyle. 

JNIr. Collis, do you solemnly swear to tell the trutli, tlie whole truth, 
and notliing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Collis. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES COLLIS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

HAERY SACHER 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Collis. James Collis, 725 Riverside Drive; and my occupa- 
tion is musician. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Collis, in response to 
a subpena which was served upon you bj'- the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Collis. Right. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Collis. I am. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself ? 

Mr. Sacher. Harry Sacher, 342 Madison Avenue, New York 17, 
N.Y. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Mr. Collis ? 

Mr. Collis. I am a free-lance musician. 

Mr, Arens. In what type of work do you engage as a free-lance 
musician ? Where do you play ? ^ 

Mr. Collis. Well, I don't play much these da3's. I mostly teach. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliere do you teach ? 

Mr. Collis. I teach at a school, the only position I have is at a 
school, called the Neigliborliood Music School. 



Mr. 


Arens. 


Mr. 


COLLIS. 


Mr. 


Arens. 


Mr. 


COLLIS. 


Mr. 


Arens. 


School? 


Mr. 


COLLIS. 



794 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Do you also teach at the Metropolitan Music School ? 

No. 

Have you ever taught there ? 

Yes. 

"\^^ien did you teach at the Metropolitan Music 

I can't recall exactly. I should say approximately in 
the year 1937 or thereabouts. 

Mr, Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. CoLLis. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first 
and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Don Christlieb? 

Mr. CoLLis. I decline to answer tliat on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. CoUis, in xVpril of 1956, in a public session in Cali- 
fornia, before this committee, ^Ir. Don Christlieb testified under oath 
that while he had been a member of the Communist Party he knew^ you 
as a Communist. Was Mr. Christlieb lying or was he telling the 
truth? 

Mr. CoLLis. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first and 
fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con- 
clude the staif interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Frazier? 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Mcintosh? 

Mr. McIntosh. No questions, 

Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. 

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, will be Mr. Oakley 
Johnson. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the 
Avhole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Johnson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF OAKLEY C. JOHNSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

MARY M. KAUFMAN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation, 

Mr, Johnson. My name is Oakley C. Johnson, 75 West 89th Street, 
New York 24, N. Y. 

Mr. Arens. And your occupation ? 

Mr, Johnson, I am a teacher of English, a private teacher of Eng- 
lish, a tutor, 

Mr, Arens, You are appearing today in response to a subpena 
which was served upon you b}^ the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities ? 

Mr, Johnson. Yes ; I am. 

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ? 

Mr, Johnson, Yes, 

Mr, Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Miss Kalteman. Mary M, Kaufman, 201 West 85th Street, New 
York 24, N. Y. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 795 

Mr. Johnson. I was born in Michigan, March 22, 1890. 

Mr. Arens. And give us, if you please, sir, just a word about your 
education. 

Mr. Johnson. I went througli the public schools of Michigan. I 
graduated from the University of Michigan and received my masters 
and doctorate at the University of Michigan. 

Mr. Arens. When did you complete your formal education^ 

Mr. Johnson. 1928. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly give us, if you please, sir, just the high- 
lights of the principal employments which you have had since you 
completed your formal education. 

Mr. Johnson. My chief employment was on the English stafi' of 
the University of Michigan. 

Mr. Arens. I don't mean to interrupt you, but, if you please, sir, 
about when were these various employments? When did they take 
place ? 

Mr. Johnson. Beginning 1920 to 1928. Then I was at Long Is- 
land University for 2 years, and at City College for 2 years, the Col- 
lege of the City of New York. 

Mr. Arens. Could you give us the approximate dates as you go 
along ? 

Mr. Johnson. Long Island University, 1928 to 1930 ; College of the 
City of New York, evening session, 1930 to 1932. Then I went out 
of teaching for a number of years, and resumed teaching in the 
South. 

Mr. Arens. Would you excuse me just a moment, sir. What w^as 
your occupation during this period in which you were out of teach- 
ing? 

Mr. Johnson. I was unemployed a good deal of the time. 

Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please, sir. 

Mr. Johnson. I taught at Talladega College, 1946 and 1947; at 
Dillard University, in New Orleans, a college for Negroes — both of 
these are — 1947 to 1951. I think that is the right terminal date. 
Then I taught at Tillotson College in Texas, in 1951 and 1952. 

Mr. xVrens. Incidentally, what course was it that you taught, the 
principal course that you taught ? 

Mr. Johnson. Over a period of years, I have taught pretty near 
everything in the way of English language and literature. 

Mr. Arens. Proceed, if you please. 

Mr. Johnson. These are the principal places at which I have 
taught. At present, I am teaching privately. 

Mr. Arens. When did you last teach in an institution such as tlie 
school in Texas to which you alluded ? 

(The witness conferred with liis counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. I am trying to get the date. You gave us, a moment 
ago I believe, a school in the South at which you were an instruc- 
tor. I want to get the date on the last 

Mr. Johnson. That is the last date on which I taught in a formal 
institution. 

Mr. Arens. '\Anien was that, please, sir? 

Mr. Johnson. August 1952. 

Mr. Arens. "What school was that again ? 

Mr. Johnson. Tillotson College, Austin, Tex. 



796 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Metropolitan 
Music School ? 

Mr. JonisrsoN. Well, only in the sense that I was on the Citizens' 
Committee for a few months and wrote a history of the Metropolitan 
Music School and edited the almanac in wldch this history appeared. 

Mr. Arens. Is that this document that I display to you here, this 
gold 20th Anniversary Almanac ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes, that is the one. 

(Docmnent previously designated "Ackley Exhibit No. 2" retained 
in committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us who solicited your connection with 
the Metropolitan Music School ? 

Mr. Johnson. As I remember, I volunteered to do this as my con- 
tribution to the fine work that the scliool was doing. 

Mr. Arens. With whom in the school did you negotiate, or have 
your conversations, with reference to your editorship of this publica- 
tion and your service on tlie Citizens" Committee 'I 

Mr. Johnson. Well, I talked chiefly to Miss Popper, the director. 

Mr. Arens. Had you known lier prior to the time that you talked 
to her about coming with the school or coming with this committee ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. Yes, I had known her a few years before. 

Mr. Arens. Where else have you instructed or taught other than 
the places that you have thus far recounted in your testimony? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. To that question, I Avould have to decline to make 
an answer on the basis of tlie first and fifth amendments to the United 
States Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taught in Moscow ? 

Mr. Johnson. To that question, I would have to give the same 
answer. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you in 1935? Could you help the com- 
mittee and tell us that? 

Mr. Johnson. I must decline to answer that question on the basis 
of the first and fifth. 

Mr. Arens. You were an assistant professor at Moscow State Ped- 
agogical Institute, were you not, in 1935 ? 

Mr. Johnson. I must make the same answer to that question. 

]\Ir. Arens. Have vou ever taught in the Workers School in New 
York City? 

Mr. Johnson. To that question also I must make the same reply. 

Mr. Arens. I should like to display to you an advertisement in New 
Masses, September 30, 1941, of a course of the Workers School, 
"Soviet Policy and World Affairs." Under the heading of the course 
offered there, the instructor is listed as Oakley Johnson. 

Kindly look at this document, if you please, sir, and tell this com- 
mittee whether or not you would be good enough to affirm the authen- 
ticity of its designation of you as the instructor in that Workers 
School course ? 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

Mr. Johnson. I must decline to so identify this document, for the 
same reason. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 797 

Mr. Arens. I would like to also display to you 2 or 3 other docu- 
ments in connection with the Workers School, both in New York City 
and in Philadelphia. The first one is in connection with the Workers 
School in which you are listed as the instructor in Soviet Democracy 
for the fall terni, September to December (1940) ; the second is the 
Workers School (summer term, 1938) in which you are listed as an 
instructor in courses apparently — and if I am in error on this, I don't 
mean to be — I am readino; here, and I am a little uncertain as to 
the courses you were teaching, but it is under the following language : 

The course in Principles of Communism during the summer will be a special 
6 weeks' course — 

and so forth. 

The course will include a discussion of the capitalist and socialist systems of 
society, the struggle for peace, Fascism and the People's Front movement, the 
role of the Communist Party, etc. 

Then I see below that a schedule and the name Oakley Johnson. 
If I am in error, I don't mean to be as to your identification with 
that particular course. Kindly look at those two documents as they 
are presently displayed, and see if you can confirm the autlienticity 
of your designation there as tlie instructor in tliose courses. 

(Documents handed to the witness.) 

Mr. JoHXSOX. I decline to identify either document on the same 
ground. 

(Documents marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 2," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. DoTLE. What year are those documents, Counsel ? 

Mr.AnENS. 1938 and 1940. 

I should like to display to you a document, a reproduction of the 
Philadelphia Workers School announcement of courses (spring term, 
1940). There is a course listed as Soviet Democracy in Action by 
Oakley Johnson. Kindly look at tliat document and see if }'ou -.vill 
confirm the authenticity of the designation of yourself there. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. JoHNSOx. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 3," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Where were you in 1935 ? What continent ? 

Mr. JoHNSOx. I must decline to answer that question also, for the 
same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever apply for a United States passport? 

(The witness conferred with liis counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I think I had better decline to answer that question, 
on advice of counsel, for the same reason. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and 
directed to answer the question of whether or not he ever applied for a 
United States passport. 

Mr. DoTLE. It is apparently pertinent. I direct the witness to 
answer that question for the purpose of identification. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I must respectfully decline to ansAver the question 
on the basis of my rights under the first and fifth amendments. 



798 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Did you attend, in 1935, a World Congress of Writers in 
Paris ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. I display to you a photographic reproduction of an 
article written by yourself, Oakley Johnson, with reference to tlie 
World Congress of Writers, a part of which appears to be in French 
language, or at least certain excerpts are in the French language, about 
the International Congress of Writers for the Defense of Culture. 

I invite your attention specifically to certain language in this article 
by yourself as follows : 

This intensely political approach, implicit in the Congress from the start, 
could not but evoke political speculation and political avowal, especially in view 
of the fact that communism is at present the only imi)ortrtnt alternative of fas- 
cism. E. M. Forster, who gave the opening speech at the first session, declared 
that were he a younger and more courageous man he would probably be a Com- 
munist — 

And the like. 

Andre Gide, who was the chairman of the first session, saw in a proletarian 
land such as the Soviet Union, eventually, "a social state which will render 
possible the full blooming of every individual, the glorious dawn of all his new 

possibilities." 

I wonder if you couldn't help this committee of the United States 
Congress, undertaking to develop factual information which would 
have an end result of protecting this Nation, under whose flag you 
have protection, by telling us first of all whether or not you are the 
author of this article, and then giving us such information as you may 
have respecting the use of writing and the arts for political action as 
referred to in this publication. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I must decline to answer on the basis, on the same 
basis, I gave before. I think perhaps I had better explain why. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 4," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. You have already. You invoked the fifth amendment, 
on the basis that if you told us the answer you would be giving infor- 
mation that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding. 

Mr. Johnson. That doesn't apply to the first amendment. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon '( 

Mr, Johnson. "\Yliat you were just saying was not an explanation of 
the first amendment. 

Mr. Arens. You invoked both the fifth amendment and the first 
amendment; is that correct? 

Mr. Johnson. Right, sir. I want to explain why I invoke the 
first amendment and why I invoke the fifth amendment in connection 
with the first amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Would you wait just a moment? Is that a prepared 
statement that you have there? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. It is a statement I prepared to explain my 
use of these amendments in case it appeared to be necessary, and I 
think it is necessary. 

Mr. Arens. We have a rule of this committee that any prepared 
statement must be submitted in advance to the committee for the 
committee's consideration. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 799 

Miss Kaufman. This is not a statement, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Doyle. It is a prepared statement by way of exphmation, ac- 
cording to the Avitness. 

Mr. JoHNSOx.' It is a reply. 

Miss Kaufman. It is a reply as to his reasons for invoking the 
fifth and first amendments. 

Mr. Doyle. Manifestly it is 3 or 4 pages long. 

Miss Kauf3ian. It is not over '2 or o paragraphs long. It is oidy 
a couple of paragraphs. 

Mr. Doyle. Proceed, then, if it is not too long. If you have copies, 
hand the chairman a copy of it, if it is a carbon copy. You have no 
objection to us seeing it, have you ? 

Mr. Johnson. No. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, so there inay be a proper sequence here, 
I should like the record at this point to reflect that this publication, 
International Literature, is described as the "Organ of the Interna- 
t ional Union of Kevolutionary Writers." 

Mr. Johnson. The first amendment, first of all, ])rovides that Con- 
gress may nnike no law abridging the freedom of speech or of the 
press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition 
the Government for a redress of grievances. This means, as gener- 
ally understood, that the amendment guaranty is the basic demo- 
cratic freedoms of thought, speech, press, assembly, and association. 

I rely on this first amendment because I believe that such an in- 
(|uiry as this committee is conducting here tends to destroy inde- 
pendent political opposition to the status quo; tends to blacken the 
reputations of all persons and institutions and organizations that 
support independent political action; forces out of their jobs or 
otherwise destroys the livelihood of honest people who are politically 
independent; and nullifies, or attempts to nullify, all parts of the Bill 
of Rights which were designed to protect independent thinkers and 
political nonconformists by besmirching the use of such constitutional 
protections. 

I am also relying on my rights under the fifth amendment, pri- 
marily the clause wliich says that no person shall be compelled to be 
a witness against himself. 

In this connection, may I call the committee's attention to the state- 
ment by Erwin N. Griswold, dean of the Harvard Law School, that — 

The privilege against self-incrimination lias been a protection for freedom of 
thought, and a hindrance to any government which might wish to prosecute 
for thoughts and opinions alone. 

This means that the fifth amendment was designed originally and 
is today a protection for the exercise of the first amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us, while you are under oath. Do you 
now belong to an organization dedicated to the overthrow of the 
Constitution by force and violence? 

(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I can reply that I do not and have never belonged 
to any organization wdiich I believe had any such object. 

Mr. Arens. Do you belong now, this instant, to the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Johnson. To that I must decline to answer on the basis of the 
first and fifth as previously explained. 



800 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. JNIr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest tliat in tlie pres- 
ence of this witness, another witness be sworn. 

Mr. Lautner, would you kindly stand and be sworn I 

Dr. DoYX,E. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Lautner. Yes, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN LAUTNER— Resumed 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Lautner. My name is John Lautner. I am a Government con- 
sultant on communism, and I reside in Youngstown, Ohio. 

Mr. Arens. ]Mr. Lautner, on this record in the course of the last 
few days, you have described veiy brief!}" your career as a one-time 
functionary in the Connnunist Party ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Lautner. I did. 

Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience as a functionary 
of the Communist Party in the United States, did you know a person 
as a Communist by the name of Oakley Johnson ? 

Mr. Lautner. Yes. 

]\Ir. Arens. Do you see in the courtroom now" the person known by 
you to be a Communist by the name of Oakley Johnson % 

Mr. Lautner. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly point him out to the committee ? 

Mr. Laittner. He is in tlie witness chair. 

TESTIMONY OP OAKLEY C. JOHNSON— Resumed 

Mr. Arens. Dr. Johnson, you have just heard the testimony of Mr. 
Lautner, have you not? 

jNIr. Johnson. Yes, I heard it. 

Mr, Arens. You heard him identify you as a person known by him 
to have been a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Lautner lying or was he telling the truth? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer on the first and fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a writer for International Press Cor- 
respondence ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I must decline to answer on the same basis. 

Mr. Arens. I display to you now a document entitled, "Interna- 
tional Press Correspondence,'' Oakley Johnson, author, under the 
subject. Proletarian Mass Organizations, American Students Becom- 
ing Politicalized, in which you call for the students and their organ- 
izations to join in actual struggle in alliance with the working classes, 
and in which you ask for this particular political action program of 
mass organizations to go to colleges all over the country, and the 
like. 

Kindly look at that document, and see if you will be good enough, 
while you are under oath, to help this Government by verifying tlie 
authenticity of your designation in this document. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN IXIUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 801 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth 
amendments. 

(Document marked "Jolmson Exhibit No. 5," and retained m com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. This morning ^ve liad a man testify abont art as a po- 
litical weapon, comiterattacking by art, using art to accomplish po- 
litical objectives, as he said. Can you lielp us on that subject, the 
use of art and tlie use of literature as a political weapon ? Is art and 
are artists and literature subject to use as a political weapon in the 
ideological battles of the day? 

(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I don't think it would be useful to answer that ques- 
tion. 

Mr. Arens. Have you engaged in the use of literature and art 
in a political battle ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you, please, sir, tlie publica- 
tion, Soviet Russia Today. 

Mr. Doyle. May I interrupt, Counsel ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. I don't tliink the witness quite finished his answer. 
I think all I heard you say was, "I decline to answer." 

Mr. Johnson. On the same basis. 

]Mr. Doyle. I did not hear that part. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you now several copies of 
Soviet Russia Today, in which articles appear by yourself. 

The first is entitled Foreign Language Institute, discussing the 
Moscow State Institute of Foreign Languages, by Oakley Johnson. 

The second issue has an article entitled Artist of Tw^o Eras, by 
Celia Kraft and Oakley Jolmson, and what has been accomplished 
in the movement of certain forces. 

The third article is Soviet Higher Learning — A Tremendous Ren- 
aissance in All Fields of Science and Art Is Underway in the 
U. S. S. R., by Oakley Johnson, in which you identify yourself as a 
onetime assistant professor of English at the Moscow State Peda- 
gogical Institute of Foreign Languages. 

Kindly look at those documents as they are displayed to you and 
tell this commmittee while you are under oath whether or not there 
is some substance — notwithstanding certain articles appearing in 
columns in this town in the last day or so — there is some substance 
to the contention of this committee that we are developing factual 
information to protect this country when we do explore what Com- 
munists and Communist agents are going in the ideological field and 
in the field of the arts. 

(Documents handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Could you help us on that; help your Government? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. Do j^ou want me to reply to the question ? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. First of all, w^ould you verify the authenticity of 
these works which bear your name ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and fifth. 

(Documents marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 6," and retained in 
committee files.) 



802 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you a few more docunients. 
The iirst is the photostatic reproduction of The Communist, a maga- 
zine, April 1940, in which you have an article, Charles Emil Ruthen- 
berg: Figliter Against Imperialist War, by Oakley Jolnison. 

First tell us who was Charles Emil Euthenberg? I personally have 
never heard of him. 

Mr. Johnson. I must decline to answer that question on the same 
basis. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man, or have you ever known a man, by 
the name of Charles Emil Euthenberg? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Was he a tested working-class revolutionist? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline. 

Mr. Arens. We are going to display that to you. Also we are going 
to display to you an article by yourself, again with reference to Euthen- 
berg, one of "the founders of the Communist Party, according to your 
article in The Communist, July 1940. 

Here is a review by yourself of The Soviets Expected It, a book by 
Anna Louise Strong, in The Communist, January 1942. 

Next is The Haymarket Martyrs and May Day, 1940, by Oakley 
Johnson, May 1940, written in the publication called The Communist. 
Look at those, if you please, sir, and tell this committee, while you 
are under oath, whether or not you will verify the authenticity of 
your authorship of those documents. 

(Documents handed to the witness.) 

(The Avitness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. You understand the committee and the Congress takes 
the position that you can write anything you want. We just want 
you to tell us about them. Tell us whether or not you are the author 
of these ai'ticles. 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer for the same reason. 

(Documents marked "Johnson Exhibit No. Y," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Frazier. Counsel, will you sliow when those articles were pub- 
lished. 

Mr. Arens. It is on the articles. Three of them are in 1940 and one 
of them is in 1942. 

We display to you an article Avritten by yourself in the Communist 
Daily Worker, February 11, 1933, entitled, "The Fight Against Ee- 
action in the Schools and Colleges,"' bearing your photograph, in 
which you ])raise the Daily Worker for its fight and say among other 
things : 

The Daily Worker has shown in deeds that it stands hy teachers and students 
in their fight against reactionary school officialdom. It does not neglect, further- 
more, to inform its readers of the educational advances made in the Soviet 
T'nion, where worliers rule. The "Daily"' is tlie organ of all workers — hand and 
brain, factory and professional, and therefore, deserves their support. * * * 

Do you recall writing that article? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to reply on the first and fifth amendments. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 8," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you know anyone in the room who is now con- 
nected with the Communist Daily Worker? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 803 

Mr. Arens. Isn't there at the press table a representative of the 
Communist Daily Worker, or do you know? 

(The witness conferred with this counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer that also. 

Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Counsel, in view of the observation, it 
would be proper for me to interject that we do not intend any inter- 
ference with the press in hearings before this committee. They are 
all welcome. 

Mr. Arens. I want to display to you a more recent work of your- 
self. It is an article appearing in the Communist Daily Worker of 
December 24, 1952, about the Rosenbergs, commending the Poems 
on the Times We Live in — poems about the Rosenbergs : 

There was a time when all om- important poets praised John Brown as a hero, 
though the Government hanged him. Our major poets today are afraid even to 
mention Julius Rosenberg ! 

But you commend those who are writing poetry lauding the Rosen- 
bergs. 

Kindly look at that exhibit, if you please, sir, and tell this com- 
mittee Avhile you are under oath, if you will be good enough to 
verify the authenticity of it. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer on the basis of the first and 
fifth. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 9," and retained in com- 
mittee files. ) 

Mr. Arens. Now I have a series of articles — we have so many here, 
T do not want to take the time of the committee to burden the record 
with all of them — articles appearing in the Communist Daily Worker 
by yourself on each of many, many enterprises. 

* Could you just tell this committee now simply : Are you a frequent 
contributor to the Communist Daily Worker ? 

Mr. Johnson. Your parading of all of this material is quite a clear 
confirmation of what I said a little while ago. 

Mr. Arens. That I am a Fascist, a witch hunter, out to destroy the 
Constitution, and all of that? 

Miss Kaufman. May the witness be permitted to answer? 

Mr. Arens. Go right ahead. 

Counsel will be advised that your sole and exclusive right is to 
advise your client. 

Mr. Johnson. It is a good indication of what I indicated a while 
ago, that the work of this committee is a clear invasion of the freedom 
of the press and other freedoms under the first amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Please answer the question. Are you a frequent con- 
tributor to the Communist Daily Worker ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Why ? 

Mr. Johnson. On the basis of the first and fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a contributor to New Masses? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. I wish you could help this committee about art, the 
use of the revolutionary dance. This is a new field. We have been 

91198 — 57— pt. 2 4 



804 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

in several fields in wliicli we have seen Communists operate, and I see 
in this article by yourself telling about the revolutionary dance — 

if immature, has its future before it and is one of tbe most rapidly developing 
sectors of working class culture. 

Would you kindly help this committee, please, sir, by looking at 
that article to refresh your recollection, and tell us liow dancing, 
according to your own words, can be used in the class struggle ? 

Mr. Doyle. That is identified as a revolutionary dance. 

Mr. Arens. What kind of a dance is a revolutionary dance ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Arens. Remember, Dr. Johnson, this is you talking about revo- 
lutionary dancing; not the conunittee. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 10" and retained in com- 
mittee files. ) 

Mr. Doyle. Wiat year was that written, please ? 

Mr. Arens. About the revolutionary dancing ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. This was written in 1934, in which the author here. Dr. 
Oakley Johnson, talks about the revolutionary dancing. 

Tomorrow, some sections of the press, will say tlie conunittee finds 
dancing subversive, which, of course, is not true. 

Did you go to Soviet Russia again in 1939 ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer on the basis — — 

Mr. Arens. How many times did you go to Soviet Russia? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Johnson. T decline to answer on the same basis. 

Mr. Arens. I have here an article by Oakley Johnson in New 
IMasses, of January 9, 1940, in which the author. Dr. Oakley Johnson, 
tells about his recent trip to the Soviet Union, in which he lauds the 
Red army, that it is a happy army, it is a brilliant army, internation- 
ally famous, and all about the democracy in the Red army. 

Kindly look at that article and tell this committee if you do not 
have just a little twinge of conscience for writing that sort of thing 
for publication in the United States, where you do have free press, 
about a laud where 3"ou have a censored press? 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his coimsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 11," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. xVrens. Have you contributed your prestige and your name as 
an author, and a doctor of philosophy, and a professor, to the New 
York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born? 

]Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

jNIr. Arens. I have here a thermof ax i-eproduction of a letter dated 
INIay 19, 1955, on the letterhead of the New York Committee for 
Protection of Foreign Born, in which Dr. Oakley C. Johnson is listed 
as one of the sponsors of that organization. Kindly look at that and 
see if you can help this committee. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 805 

Mr. Arens. AVould you verify the autlieiiticitj^ of that document? 

Mr. Johnson. I thought I had answered. I decline to answer on 
the basis of the first and fifth. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 12," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Thank you. 

Were you a member of the Friends of the Soviet Union ? 

Mr. Johnson. I must decline similarly. 

Mr. Arens. Were you executive secretary of the Louisiana Civil 
Rights Congress ? 

Mr. Johnson. I am afraid I will have to decline to answer that 
question also. 

Mr. Arens. Among those who were defending the Constitution, 
according to this article, in condemning the Supreme Court in its 
action in upholding the contempt verdict of Communist Eugene 
Dennis, and declaring that this committee, the Committee on Un- 
American Activities, is "unconstitutional,'' according to the Commun- 
ist Daily Worker of April 11, 1950, was Dr. Oakley C. Johnson, exec- 
utive secretary of the Louisiana Civil Rights Congress. 

Look at that document and see whether you will be good enough to 
verify its authenticity. 

( Document handed to the witness. ) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Could you help us by verifying the authenticity of that 
publication, whether or not the facts recited tliere are true? 

jNIr. J(niNSON. You see, Counsel, the methods used by this com- 
mittee correspond to the aims of the committee. You use trickery to 
get people into a situation where you can 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 13," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Are we about the same as Judge Medina? Could you 
help us on that ? I liave here a letter that you sent to the Communist 
Daily Worker about Judge Medina, when he was trying the 11 Com- 
munist traitors, and you wrote as follows : 

Down in New Orleans, where I live, I have been reading about the trial of 
the 12 Communist leaders and telling other people about it. On my vacation 
in New York, I seized the first opportunity to attend a session at the courthouse 
on Foley Square. 

I found unbelievable unfairness and prejudice in the conduct of the case. 
.Judge Harold R. Medina acts as .judge, prosecutor, and provocateur. 

Dimitrov could speak more freely and defend himself better in a Hitler court 
than can the Communists under Kangaroo Medina. 

Did you write that '? 

Mr. Johnson. I must decline to answer. 

(Document marked "Johnson Exhibit No. 14," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. You wouldn't have any hesitancy to attack this com- 
mittee to our face, but you wouldn't tell us whether or not you wrote 
this to Judge Medina ? 

Mr. Johnson. I will let that stand. 

Mr. iVRENS. Is your appraisal of Judge Medina and his conduct of 
the trial of the 12 Communist traitors about the same as your appraisal 
of this committee ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer that. 



806 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Doyle. What was the date of that letter ? 

Mr. xVrens. July 28, 1949. 

Mr. Doyle. You would not have produced it, Coinisel, unless you 
knew it was a true and correct copy of the original ^ 

Mr. Arens. That is correct ; yes, sir. 

Are you or were you one of the leading lights of the National Com- 
mittee for the Defense of Political Prisoners? Do you recall that? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. If we had any political prisoners in this country, would 
you uphold the Constitution and preservation of law and order and 
tell us about political prisoners and any activity in which you have 
been engaged in defending political prisoners ? 

I would like to lay before you a thermofax reproduction of a letter- 
head of the National Committee for the Defense of Political Prison- 
ers. See if you can help this committee by verifying the authenticity 
of that letterhead on which your name appears as one of the princi- 
pals. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Doyle. What is the date of tliat ? 

Mr. Arens. It is rather old ; 1935, I believe, 

Mr. JoiiNSON. I decline to answer. 

(Document marked ''Johnson Exhibit No. 15,'' and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. You have been one of the leaders of the American 
Peace Crusade, too ; have you not. Dr. Johnson ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve at a closed party meeting with the 
liead of the Metropolitan Music School, Miss Lilly Popper? 

(The witness conferred with counsel.) 

Mr. Doyle. What kind of meeting? 

Mr. Arens. A closed Communist Party meeting. 

Mr. Johnson. I must decline to answer that question also on the 
l)asis of the first and the fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Can you help this committee, and perhaps clarify things 
in the minds of certain people, as to how the Communist Party uses 
prominent people, doctors of philosophy, musicians and artists, and 
the like, in the furtherance of its nefarious design for world conquest? 
Can you help us on that? Some people are blind on an issue and can- 
not see it. I thought perhaps you might lielp us on it. 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Frazier? 

Mr. Frazier. Dr. Johnson, did I understand you to say you had 
lived in New Orleans ? 

Mr. Johnson. When I taught at Dillard University, I lived in New 
Orleans. 

Mr. Frazier. What university? 

Mr. Johnson. Dillard University. 

Mr. Frazier. How long did you teach there? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 807 

Mr. Johnson. Four years. 

Mr. Frazier. And you also taught in Texas ? 

Mr. Johnson. Yes. 

Mr, Frazier. What was that institution? 

Mr. Johnson. Tillotson College. 

Mr. Frazier. How long did you teach there? 

Mr, Johnson. One year ; one year and a summer. 

:Sh\ Doyle. Mr. Mcintosh? 

Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. I was interested, Witness, as I am quite sure I heard 
you some minutes ago volunteer the statement that this committee 
was using trickery to get you to testify before it. Is that what you 
said? 

Mr, Johnson. Yes, it w^as. 

Mr. Doyle. I invite you to tell us, now, what trickery has been used 
on you. You volunteei-ed the statement. It is in the record that this 
committee has used trickery on you. Tell us what trickery was used 
on you. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Johnson. I would say that most of the questions were trick 
questions, but particularly that last one in which your counsel wanted 
to know, after I had declined over a period of time, to answer ques- 
tions of a certain character, he wanted to know if I had ever been in 
the same room with Miss Lilly Popper in a closed meeting of some 
sort or other. That was a trick question, a provocative question. 

Mr. Doyle. Was there any trickery ? He asked you a frank ques- 
tion, on a question of fact. 

Mr, Johnson. I gave a frank answer, I declined to answer. 

Mr, Doyle, Is that the trickery you allege? But you made the 
statement about trickery before he asked you tliat question. The rec- 
ord will show that you volunteered the assertion here in public that 
this committee liad tricked you, and you made that statement before 
he asked you that last question, 

Mr, Johnson. You are extending it. You say that I volunteered 
the information that the committee had tricked me. They haven't. 
They have tried to trick me, but they haven't succeeded. 

Mr, Doyle. The record will speak for itself, but I could not let that 
sort of a false assertion go without confronting you with the false 
charge you had made. 

Mr. Frazier. May I ask another question ? 

Mr, Doyle. Go ahead. Judge. 

Mr. FiLvziER. Do you think it is trickery to present you with articles 
that you had written yourself, and which you decline to even admit 
that you wrote, but took the fifth amendment, articles that you had 
spread over the United States ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

j\Ir. Johnson. Will you repeat that question, Mr. Frazier? 

Mr. Frazier. I said : Do you think it was trickery on tlie part of 
the committee for the counsel to present to you articles tliat you had 
written yourself and wliicli liad been disseminated all ovei- the I'^nited 
States under your name, and you declined to even acknowledge whether 
or not you wrote them ? 

Mr. Johnson. You see, this whole thing is tied up with the apparent 
aim of the connnittee to suppress opinions. 



808 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Frazier. We are willing for you to acknowledge that that 
was your opinion. We were trying to get you to do it. 

Mr. Johnson. No. You aVe trying to smear both opinions tliat 
are expressed and the constitutional protections which enable a person 
to express opinions. You are trying to do both. You are trying often, 
at the same time, to trick people in some kind of an answer which 
will enable you to charge contempt of court, or sometliing of that 
sort, or perjury, or something of that sort. 

Mr. Doyle. Oh, no. 

Mr. Arens. While you were in the Soviet Union, did you have an 
opportunity to observe the Soviet constitutional processes there? 

Mr. Johnson. Do you see tliat, Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. No, I do not. 

Mr. Johnson. I declined to answer whetlier I had been in the 
Soviet Union or not, and now your counsel wants to know if I at- 
tended or if I observed constitutional processes in tlie Soviet Union. 
If that isn't a triclv question, I don't 

Mr. Arens. You saw the articles I laid before your very eyes, the 
articles you authored, saying you had just gotten back from the 
Soviet Union, didn't you ? 

Mr. Johnson. You saw tlie articles. 

Mr. Arens. Were these articles a fraud '? I laid before you articles 
in which you said, in etFect, "I just returned from tlie Soviet Union." 
Now, were those articles forgeries? Did I commit a contemptuous 
act in laying those articles before you? Were tliey forgeries and 
frauds ? 

Mr. Johnson. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Doyle. INIay I take just a minute? I think all members of this 
committee are lawyers. I am a lawyer. I notice this dastardly attack 
by you, written in tlie Daily Worker of July 28, 1940, on the Federal 
court right here in this city. This was the letter read by oiu' counsel. 
I want to read the last paragraph : 

Dimitrov conld speak more freely and defend himself better in a Hitler court 
than can the Communists under Kangaroo Medina. 

(Signed) Oakley C. .Johnson. 

I want to ask you : You are confronted with this copy of this letter 
w^ritten to the Daily Woi-ker and published in the Daily Worker. 
Isn't this a copy of the letter you wrote ? 

Mr. Johnson. I have already declined to answer that question, and 
I decline again to answer the question which you are asking. 

Mr. Doyle. I know you have declined. 

Mr. Johnson. And for the same reason. 

Mr. Doyle. One reason for this hearing. Dr. Johnson, is to show 
the extent to which an identified Communist goes to undermine the 
constitutional functions of our Government. That is one thing we 
are here for. 

Mr. Johnson. That is another trick question. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Doyle. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for writing dur- 
ing a trial, undermining, deliberately, the constitutional court proces- 
ses of our Federal courts system. You were undermining it in favor 
of the Communists, at that time, in the minds of the public Avho hap- 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 809 

pened to read the paper to which you wrote that letter for cir- 
culation. I have one thin<y more, if I can take a minute. 

I think the record should show rig-ht here that this witness, as you 
well know, and tliis subcommittee, are here under Public Law 601, es- 
tablished by your Congress, which gives you protection, and which 
3'ou condenui and which you criticise. We are charged under Public 
Law 601 with looking into the extent and the character to which sub- 
versives from foreign countries, in this case, subversive propaganda 
from foreign countries — and I am reading the language here and 
applying it to you, according to these documents introduced, and 
the evidence we believe we have — instigated from foreign countries 
which attack the principle of the constitutional form of government. 

With this one statement, I will not take longer. My own position 
as an American citizen is this, so far as the Constitution is concerned. 
Having your statement, which you read to the connnittee, charging 
us with trying to stifle independent political action and independent 
political thinking, I take the position, and always have, and I expect 
always to take this position, that you have the right to say what you 
please, to pray the way you want and to write the way you want and to 
act the way you want and to live the way you want, but I expect you to 
do it within the four corners of established law under our Constitu- 
tion. 

The L^nited States Congress has held that the Conununist movement 
in this country is a worldwide revolutionary movement, and yon know 
it is that. 

I want to say this finally. I can understand how 3'ou, sir, with 
your brilliancy, and with your ability, might engage in philosophical 
discussions, such as you did prior to 1945. But when the Duclos 
letter, coming from Moscow through France, largely resulted in ex- 
pelling Earl Browder fi'om his control of the Communist Party, and 
Soviet Eussia laid down the line that it was either the survival of the 
Soviet system or the capitalistic system, at that time, in my book, 
every patriotic American should have taken a choice, within a reason- 
able time after April or May 1945. 

Therefore, I cannot understand. Dr. Johnson, how any American, 
claiming now to be a patriotic American citizen, when they know it 
is a fight for survival of our constitutional freedoms and our con- 
stitutional form of government, I can't understand how you or any 
other person, claiming to be a patriotic American citizen, can fight 
for the Soviet system to be transplanted to the United States instead 
of defending your own constitutional form of govermnent. 

Are there any other questions of the witness f 

Mr. Akens. No, thank you, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

The next witness, please. 

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Elias Carmen, kindly come forward. 

Mr. Doyle. Would you please raise your right hand and be sworn ? 

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth- 
ing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Carmen. Yes. 



810 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

TESTIMONY OF ELIAS CARMEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
EPHEAIM LONDON 

Mr. Arexs. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. Carmex. Elias Carmen, 267 West S9th Street: musician. 

Mr. Arexs. You are appearino; today, Mr. Carmen, in response to 
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Carmex. That is rieht. 

Mr. Arexs. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Carmex. That is right. 

Mr. Arexs. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. LoxDox^. Ephraim London, 150 Broadway, New York City. 

Mr. Arex^s. Where are you employed, Mr. Carmen? 

Mr. Carmex. I am what is known as a free-lance musician ; I work 
for several people, but my principal employer is the Symphony of the 
xVir. 

Mr. Arexs. How long have you been employed ])y the Symphony 
of the Air? 

Mr. Carmex. Since its inception when the NBC Symphony was dis- 
banded; shortly after that. 

Mr. Arex^s. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Carmex. I believe I answered both of those questions, but I 
will repeat them. As to my present status, I am not a member of the 
part3\ As to my past status, I decline to answer on the grounds that 
my answer might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time since you have been served with your subpena to appear be- 
f or this committee ? 

Mr. Carmex. No, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time in the course of last year? 

Mr. Carmex. No, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you been a member of the Communist Party 
at any time in the course of the last 5 years ? 

Mr. Carmex. I must decline to answer. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you been a member of the Communist party at 
any time in the course of the last year ? 

Mr. Carmex. I still must decline to answer. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you been in the Communist Party at any time in 
the course of the last 3 years ? 

Mr. Carmex. I decline. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you been a member of the Communist Part at 
any time in the course of the last 2 years ? 

Mr. Carmex. I decline. 

Mr. Arex^s. Have you been a member of the Communist Party in 
the course of the last year and a half ? 

Mr. Carmex. I still decline. 

Mr. Arexs. Plave you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time in the course of the last year? 

Mr. Carmex". No, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. I want to get this clear. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 811 

Mr. Carmen. You said last year. I said no. 

Mr. Arens. You have not been a member of the Communist Party 
at any time since April of 1956 ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Carmen. That is correct. 

Mr, Arens. Have you been a member of the Connnunist Party any 
time since the Rooney committee began its investigation in the United 
States Congress of alleged (^ommunist penetration of the Symphony 
of the Air? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Carmen. What is the date of that ? 

Mr. xVrens. February of 1956. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. That is my present recollection. "We are checking it 
right now. 

Mr. Carmen. I will answer when I get the correct date. 

Mr. Arens. You have to wait until we find out the exact date of 
the Roone}' investigation before you can tell us the period in which 
you have not been a member of the Communist Party ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Car:men. That is true. 

Mr. London. Mr. Arens, please. 

Mr. Arens. I just heard him say, "That is true." 

Mr, Carmen. I am waiting for your answer. I am sorry. 

Mr. London, Mr. Arens, may I say something for a moment. I 
don't want there to be any misunderstanding on the record. You 
asked the witness originall}^ whether he had been a member since the 
Kooney committee, and it was at my suggestion that the witness asked 
you for a date, because I didn't w^ant him to make an answer that was 
incorrect. 

Mr. Arens. All right. My best recollection is that it was early in 
1956. Have you been a member of tlie Communist Party at any time 
since the Rooney committee announced publicly tliat it was going 
into the question of Communist penetration of the Symphony of the 
Air? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel. ) 

Mr. Carmen. If your understanding as to the date being either 
April or February is correct, then my answer is "No." 

Mr, Arens, Were you a member of the Communist Party imme- 
diately prior to the time that the Rooney committee announced to the 
world that it was going into the question of Communist-penetration 
of the Symphony of the Air ? 

(The witness (conferred with his counsel,) 

Mr. Carmex. I can't answer that until I have a date. 

Mr, Arens. Do you remember the time that the Rooney committee 
announced that it was going into the question of Communist penetra- 
tion of the Symphony of the Air ? 

Mr. Carmen. I am just as vague as you are about that. 

Mr. Arexs. Do you remember that they did it ? 

Mr. Carmen. Yes, of course, 

Mr, Arens, When you heard of that, were you then a member of 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr, Carmen, Excuse me a moment, 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



812 COMMUTSriSM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mv. Carmen. Yes, I think I can help you. I can tell yon this, that 
my membership or nonmembership of the Communist Party had noth- 
ing to do Trith the Rooney committee, if that will help you any. 

]Mr. Arens. Plave you ever been on the personnel committee of the 
Sympliony of the Air ? 

Mr. Carmen. Yes, for the season of 1955-56. 

Mr. Arens. Would you repeat the answer, please? 

Mr. Carmen. I am sorry. The season of 1955-56. We generally 
go by seasons. The seasons generally start in the middle of the year. 

Mr. Arens. You were on the personnel committee then ? 

Mr. Carmen. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. That was the committee which selected other artists ? 

Mr. Carmen. It is the group that selected extra people, substitutes, 
and filled in vacancies, more or less. 

Mr. Arens. Do you remember a man by the name of William Dorn, 
who was with the Symphony of the Air ? 

Mr. Carmen. That is true. 

Mr. Arens. Do you remember the time he introduced in the Sym- 
phony of the Air a resolution in August of 1956, the essence of 
which would throw out of the Symphony of the Air, Communists, 
Nazis, or Fascists ? Do you remember that ? 

Mr. Carmen. I know of the resolution; however, I was not at any 
of tlie meetings that discussed it. As a matter of fact, about that 
time I had to miss quite a few meetings. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Earl Browder ? 

Mr. Carmen. I decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what was your connection with Earl Browder 
when he was general secretary- of the Communist Party? 

]\Ir. Carmen. I just declined to answer. 

Mr. Arens. What schools have you attended? 

Mr. Carmen. Several elementary schools. 

Mr. Arens. Are there any schools tliat you liave attended here 
in the New York area ? 

Mr. Carmen. High school, a couple of- — — 

Mr. Arens. I want you to tell us every school j'ou attended in the 
New York area that you can recall. 

Mr. Carmen. I am coming to that. A couple of sessions at City 
College, evening session, 1 or 2 years at the Dann-osch Institute, which 
is a musical school. Then, I had some private schooling under a phil- 
harmonic scholarship. 

Mr. Arens. Was there any other schooling? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Carmen. Would you specify as to any other schooling? 

Mr. Arens. Are anv of them linoeriiic; in vour mind that you are 
a little doubtful about? 

Mr. Carmen. Well, I don't know what you are after, and I am 
afraid I will liave to decline. 

Mr. Arens. Have j^ou attended the Jefferson School of Social Sci- 
ence ? 

Mr. Carmen. I will have to decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Or the Workers School ? 

Mr. Carmen. I will have to decline to answer that, too. 

Mr. Arens. What is j^our position on communism ? You said you 
are not now a Communist. What is your position on commimism? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 813 

J\[r. Carmen. I said I was not a ineiuber and I was not kidding. 
If I agreed with it, I would still be a member. I would be a member 
right now. 

Mr. xVrens. Does that word ''stilF' linger in your mind? Does it 
have any significance or was that a slip ? 

Mr. Carmen". I am listening to yon more than myself. 

Mr, Arexs. I did not use the word "still." You did. When you 
used the word "still'' — you would "still" be a Communist — what did 
you mean by that? 

Mr. Carmen. You are apparently convinced that I am one and 
that is why it is unfortunate that I followed your line. 

Mr. Arens. What did you mean, sir, and I am serious. This is not 
a laughing matter. The Communist conspiracy is deadly serious. 
We are losing this cold war and losing it at an alarming rate all over 
the world. 

Mr. Carmen. I am serious too. 

Mr. Arens. What did you mean when you told this committee a 
few moments ago, I am not "still" a Communist. 

Mr. Carmen. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to 
say 

Mr. Arens. I did not ask you that. What did you mean a moment 
ago when you said, I am not "still" a Communist ? 

Mr. Carmen. What I meant was I am not, and if I agreed Avith 
the Communist Party, I would be a member of it. 

Mr. Arens. You have told us your position is against comnnmism, 
is that correct ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Is your position now against communism ? 

Mr. Carmen. I said I do not believe in it. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you occupied that present status, or 
maintained your present position against communism ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Carmen. I will have to decline. 

Mr. Arens. Why ? 

Mr. Carmen. On the ground of self-incrimination. 

Mr. Ajrens. Are there people now in the Symphony of the Air 
whom you have known as members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Carmen. I will have to decline to answer that because the 
question assumes that I am in a position to know. 

Mr. Arens. If you are not in a position to know, it is very simple 
to deny it while you are under oath, to say, "No ; there is no one in the 
Symphony of the Air that I know as a Communist, or have ever 
known as a Communist." That would be a very truthful answer, and 
you would not get into trouble on that, if it is the truth. 

(Tne witness conferred with his cohnsel.) 

Mr. Carmen. I will still have to decline. 

Mr. DoTT.E. For what reason ? 

Mr. Carmen. The same. 

Mr. Arens. What is your position now, since you no longer, or do 
not "still," belong to the party? What is your position with reference 
to whether or not it is good to have Communists in the Svmpliony 
of the Air? 

Mr. Carmen. I will have to object to the first part of the question 
because it assumes somethino; 



814 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. We will strike that. Perhaps it is not quite accurate. 
May I rephrase it this way : Do you presently favor the ejection from 
the Symphony of the Air of any person wlio is known and proven to 
be a Communists 

Mr. Carmen. That is a very ticklish question because there are 
])robably all sorts of shades of ])olitical opinion in the orchestra. 

Mr. Arens. I am not talking about political opinion, and you know 
it, sir. Do you presently favor the expulsion from the Symphony of 
the Air of anyone who is known and proven to be a Communist ? 

Mr. Carmen. I will have to decline to answer that on the grounds 
that musical competence is the first and only stated qualification for 
membership. As a matter of fact, there is an even further qualifica- 
tion. 

Mr. Arens. They must have modified it in the course of the last 
several hours, because we have a letter here from them 

Mr. Carmen. It does not say that at all. 

Mr. Arens. That is applicable only to the board. They do not 
want Communists on the board ; is that it ? 

Mr. Ca'rmen. No ; it does not say that, either. 

Mr. Arens. How do you know what it says, the letter I am speak- 
ing about i' 

Mr. Carmen. The letter? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

Mr. Carmen. The letter was passed by the board of the orchestra. 
It is public knowledge. It is not a secret. 

The letter states that anybody who takes the fifth amendment posi- 
tion in a hearing is ineligible for membership on the board. 

Mr. Arens. Just on the boai'd S They can play in the orchestra ? 

Mr. Carmen. It doesn't say anything about being a Conmiunist or 
Fascist. 

Mr. Arens. I have not read the letter. The chairman this morn- 
ing alluded to the letter. I do not believe I read the letter in toto. 

Have you made recordings for Young People's Ilecords; an organ- 
ization known as Young People's Records? 

Mr. Carmen. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Have yon made recordings for the Keynote recorcj- 
ings ? 

Mr. Carmen. I am afraid I am not sure. I niade too many in the 
last 20 years or so. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person, or liave you ever known a per- 
son — and I am in dead earnest when I ask this— by the name of Arthur 
Alexandrovich Adams ? 

Mr. Carmen. I also decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Why would you decline to answer ? 

Mr. Carmen. On the grounds that my answer might tend to in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Arens. You can serve your Government if you can tell us what 
you might know about that particular person, Arthur Alexandrovich 
Adams. 

Do you know a person by the name of Eric Bernay ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Carmen. I think I would rather decline. 



COMMUNISAl IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC, 815 

Mr. Arens. This is not a question of just preference. Do you 
honestly feel that if you told this connnittee whether or not you 
know a person by the name of PLric Bernay you would be supplying 
information that miglit be used against you in a criminal proceeding? 

Mr. Carmen. That is true. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know anything about Soviet espionage in the 
United States? 

Mr. Carmen. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know, or have you been in discussion with, 
knowingly, a person who, to your knoAvledge, has been engaged in 
Soviet espionage in thelTnited States? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Carmen. I Mill have to decline to answer the question, but I 
will have to ami)]ify my answer by stating categorically that I have 
never at any time engaged in any espionage 

Mr. Arens. I did not suggest that you had, and you know I did 
not suggest that you had. 

Mr. Carmen. I know. But J feel that the luiture of the question 
might 

Mr. Arens. Tell this connnittee while you ai'e under oath, sir — and 
I pledge you, yo^'- can serve your Government — what you know about 
Arthur Alexandrovich Adams. 

Mr. Carmen. I have to decline to answer, and I Avould like to finish 
my statement that I liave never engaged in any espionage for any 
government or agent. 

Mr. Arens. It has not been suggested on this record that you had. 

Mr. Carmen. I realize that full well. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Let me ask you for the third time. Do you know a 
l)ers()n by the name of Artluir Alexandrovich iVdams? 

Afr. CAR:NrEN. I must decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Sir, if you were granted innnunity pursuant to pro- 
ceedings initiated by this committee, whereby you could not be prose- 
cuted criminally liecause of any facts you would testify to, would you 
fully and freely reveal to this committee any and all information you 
have respecting Arthur Alexandrovich Adams? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Car^ien. The answer would be "Yes." 

Mr. Arens. You would? 

Mr. Carmen. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Would you also fully and freely reveal to this com- 
mittee any and all infoiination which you may have on any subject 
on which this committee would pose questions to you within the field 
of this committee's interest? I have carefully phrased that to avoid 
the word "communism." 

Mr. Carmen. Repeat that, please. 

Mr. Arens. If this committee should initiate proceedings whereby 
you would be granted complete innnunity from criminal prosecution 
for anything you may have said or may say in testimony before this 
committee, would you. sir, testify fully and freely before this com- 
mittee on any subject concerning which you would be interrogated 
within the jurisdiction of this committee? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



816 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. You will notice, I lii^ve omitted, for the purpose of tliis 
question, allusion to the word ''connnunism," so that your answer 
could not possibly involve you in some feeling that you would be 
revealing information in this present proceeding which would be used 
against you, in a criminal proceeding. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Carmen. I have no way of knowing, because I have no way of 
knowing the subjects you might be going into. 

Mr. Arens. You know about what we would be going into, do you 
not ? 

]Mr. Carmen. Well 

Mr. Arens. I am just suggesting the possibility of an opportunity 
of your serving your Government, because we know, on the basis of 
information that comes to us from a number of sources — even though 
certain columnists do not — that musicians are used not only for the 
purpose of what was said today, political action in the arts, but 
also they are used for very nefarious purposes in the operations of the 
Soviet conspiratorial apparatus. 

Answer that question, if you would, please, sir. 
Mr. Carmen. It is the same question? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. Would you testify fully and freely before this 
committee if this committee initiates proceedings to give you a com- 
plete immunity from any criminal prosecution? I say that we feel 
you have some information that would be of service to this comitry. 
(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Akens. It is not information as to how to play the violin, not- 
withstanding what certain columnists say. 

Mr. Carmen. I can't answer that question. It is not specific 
enough. But I could add that I know nothing in that sphere. 
Mr. Arens. You know nothing about communism ? 
Mr. Carmen. You left that out. 

Mr. Arens. You said in that sphere. It is certainly within the 
jurisdiction of this committee to inquire into communism, but I left 
it out specifically so I would not use the word "Communist" to alarm 
you on the question of what you may say in this proceeding today. I 
am trying to be overly fair to you, exceedingly fair. 

I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude the staff 
interrogation of this witness. 
Mr. JDoTLE. Mr. Frazier? 
Mr. Frazier, No questions. 
Mr. Doyle. Mr. ;McIntosh ? 
Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions. 
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. 

Tlie committee will stand in recess for not over 5 minutes. 
(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Clyde Dojde, 
James B. Frazier, Jr., and Robert J. Mcintosh.) 
(Brief recess.) 

(Present after the taking of the recess: Representatives Clyde 
Doyle. James B. Frazier, Jr., and Robert J. Mcintosh.) 

Mr. Doyle. The subcommittee will be in order. Call your next 
witness. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the counsel for Alan Arkin is present 
and has talked with us with reference to his client. I respectfully 
suggest that, in his presence, this record reflect an order that Alan 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 817 

Arkin be continued under tlie subpena under wliicli lie was to appear 
today, and we Avill notify by wire when he is to appear, probabl}- 
in Washington in the next few" weeks. 

Mr. Doyle. Before you enter that stipulation, may I have the rec- 
ord show that the committee has reconvened with three members, 
constituting a quorum of the subcommittee, being present in person. 
Judge Frazier, Mr. Mcintosh, and Doyle, of California. 

Let the record show the order as stated by our connnittee counsel. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Paul Winter, kindly come forward. 

Mr. London. Mr. Cliairman, would 3'ou ask the photographers not 
to take any pictures, please? 

Mr. Doyle. Our rules are this, Counsel. We cannot interfere w ith 
the freedom of the press before a witness is sworn. After a witness 
is sworn, we take jurisdiction and require that the press not take pic- 
tures if he objects. 

Mr. London. Mr. Chairman, I am sure that your authorit}^ would 
be respected, if you would tell this gentleman and lady not to take 
any pictures. They will not, if you tell them not to. This l)eing 
a courtroom, as a matter of fact, in this particular courthouse, there 
has alwaj's been a rule that no photograplis would be taken during 
any session. 

Mr. Doyle. Of the court ? 

Mr. London. Yes, Your Honor. This is a time-honored rule which 
I am sure would be accepted if you would instruct these people 
not to take photographs. 

Mr. Doyle. I will not instruct the press to discontinue their lawful 
operations. I have never done it. 

I do instruct you not to take pictures of anyone after they have 
been sworn, if they request no pictures. I think that is fair. Counsel. 
We will not, as far as I am concerned, interfere wdth the press getting 
its news for news purposes. 

Mr. London. We bow to Your Honor's ruling. You are the chair- 
man. 

jNIr. Doyle. I may be in error, but that is the way I feel about it. 

Mr. Arens. Please remain standing while the chairman administers 
an oath to you. 

Mr. Doyle. You do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Winter. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF PAUL WINTER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
EPHRAIM LONDON 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Winter. My name is Paul Winter, 65-10 99th Street, Forest 
Hills. I am a violinist. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Winter, in response to 
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American xlctivities ? 

]Mr. Winter. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Winter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 



818 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. London. Ephraim London, 150 Broadway, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. AVliere are you employed, Mr. Winter ? 

Mr. Winter. At the National Broadcasting Co. 

Mr. Arens. In wliat capacity? 

Mr. WiNTiiR. As a violinist. 

Mr. Arens. On what show or productions do you perform? 

Mr. Winter. The Sid Caesar program is my regular program. 
The Sid Caesar program is my only regular program. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Winter. I am not now a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. Have 3- ou ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Winter. I decline to answer that on the grounds of self-incrimi- 
nation. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time since you were subpenaed to appear before this committee, 
some several weeks ago ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I was not. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time in the course of the last year ? 

(The witness conferred with his comisel.) 

Mr. Winter. I will decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time in the course of the last 6 months ? 

Mr. Winter. I will decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time within the course of the last 3 months ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. No. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been a member of the Communist Party at 
any time in the course of the last oi/o months ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I will decline to answer that question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Arens. To what local do vou belong ? 

Mr. Winter. Local 802. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever held an office in that organization ? 

Mr. Winter. I have not. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you live in 1943 ? 

Mr. Winter. I think I lived in Forest Hills then. 

Mr. Arens. Is Forest Hills in Queens ? 

Mr. Winter. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you remember your address ? 

Mr. Winter. 6^39 98th Street. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you live in 1939 ? 

Mr. Winter. 155 East 77th Street. 

Mr. Arens. Is that 77th or 72d ? 

Mr. Winter. 77th. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know Israel Amter ? 

Mr. Winter. No. 

Ml*. Arens. You signed a nominating petition for him, did you not ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 



COJVUVIUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 819 

Mr. Akens. "What has been your connection with the People's Radio 
Foundation ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I Avill decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. You were one of the part owners, were you not, of the 
People's Radio Foundation? 

Mr. Winter. I decline to answer that on the same groimds, 

Mr. Arens. "\Aliat is the People's Radio Foundation? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. You say you are not right now and haven't been for the 
last month and a half, is it, or 21/^ months, a member of the Commu- 
nist Party ? Is that correct ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Doyle. I think he said 31/^. 

Mr. London. He testified before about a period of 3i/^ months. 

Mr. Arens. You have not been a member of the Communist Party 
for 314 months; is that correct? 

JNIr. Winter. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you this instant know the names of persons who 
have been known by you to be Communists, who are presently in the 
musical field, professional musicians, in the New York area? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I decline to answer that on the constitutional grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I have a thermofax reproduction of a letter on the 
letterhead of the People's Radio Foundation dated July 27, 1945, and 
a list of names of persons who are part owners, described here as 
stockholders, in that organization, including the name of Paul Win- 
ter. Kindly look at that document, if you please, sir, and tell this 
committee, while you are under oath, whether or not you are truth- 
fully and accurately described in that status in relation to People's 
Radio Foimdation. 

(Document handed to witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I decline to answer. 

(Document marked "Winter Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. ^Vlio was Mother Bloor? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Can you help us on that, please, sir? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I know no one by that name personally. 

Mr. Arens. Do you want to take off the word "personally" and then 
tell us who was Mother Bloor ? 

Mr. Winter. I will decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. You sent Mother Bloor a birthday greeting, did you 
not, on her 75tli birthday, along with a number of others, an enterprise 
celebrating the birthday of one of the leading lights of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. While you are conferring with your counsel, we will 
display before you the thermofax reproduction of the bulletin bearing 
your name as one of those joining in this enterprise of celebrating the 

91198 — 57— pt. 2 5 



820 COMMUXISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

75th birtlulay of Mother Bloor, who was, of course, one of tlie famous 
leading lights of the Communist Party in the TTnited States. 

(Document handed to witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Look at that and see if it refreshes your recollection, 
sir. 

Mr. Winter. I will decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

(Document marked "Winter Exhibit No. 2" and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arens. You say you are not a Communist and have not been 
a Communist for some 2 or 3 months. What is your present position 
on communism? Are you for it or against it? 

Mr. Winter. I am opposed to it. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you maintained that position ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I will decline to answer that. 

Mr. Arens. If you are opposed to cormnunism, will you please tell 
the committee what information you have about the operation of the 
Communist Party of the United States, so this committee can take 
that information back to Washington, report it to the United States 
Congress, and perhaps initiate some legislation to help rout the Com- 
munists? Would you do that, if you are opposed to communism? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Winter. I wdll decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever served in the United States Army? 

Mr. Winter. No ; t did not. 

Mr. Arens. When and where were you born ? 

Mr. Winter. 1914, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. And a word about your education, please, sir? 

Mr. Winter. New York public schools, and Juilliard Music School. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, ]\Ir. Chairman, that will concludPi 
the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. DoYEE. Are there any questions from members of the subcom- 
mittee ? I want to compliment you on getting out of it. The witness 
is excused. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Hunkins, please come forward. 

Sterling Hunkins? 

Mr. Doyle. Will you please be sworn ? 

You do solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Hunkins. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF STERLING HUNKINS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
LEONARD B. BOUDIN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. Hunkins. Sterling Hunkins. 302 Eighth Avenue. I am a 
musician. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Hunkins, in response to 
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Hunkins. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented l^y counsel ? 



COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 821 

Mr. HuNKiNS. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. BouDiN. Leonard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New York, N. Y. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ? 

Mr. HuNKixs. At the present time I am unemployed. 

Mr. Arexs. Where have you last been employed ? 

Mr. HuKKiNS. My last steady job in New York was with the Im- 
perial Theater, at the Imperial Theater. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ^ 

Mr. IIuNKiNS. Pit musician. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Symi)hony of 
the Air? 

Mr. HuNKiNS. No; not as a member. That is, I have played two 
individual concerts with them. 

Mr. Arens. You are on the list of employees, prospective em- 
ployees, whatever they call it ? 

Mr. HuNKiNS. The large list of substitutes, yes. 

Mr. Arens. Substitute employees. 

Do you know a man by the name of Jesse Solomon ? 

Mr. HuNKiNS. I decline to answer that on the gi'ounds of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Hunkins, there was a man here this morning by 
the name of jMax Marlin, Avho took an oath before this committee 
this mornino- and testified tliat, while he was in the Communist 
Party, he knew you as a member of tlie Communist Party. Was 
Mr. 5larlin lying or was he telling tlie truth ? 

Mr. KuNKiNS. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Hunkins. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Hunkins. No. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 10 years 
ago? 

Mr. Hunkins. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr, Hunkins. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 15 years 
ago ? 

Mr. Hunkins. I decline to answer this, on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. What is your present position on communism? 

Mr. PIunkins. I decline to ansAver the question on the grounds 
of my rights to the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hunkins. No. Positively not. 

Mr. Arens. Have you been under Communist Party discipline at 
any time in the last 4 or 5 years ? 

Mr. Hunkins. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Then can you not tell us your present position on 
communism, if you are not a Communist at the present time and not 
under Communist Party discipline? 

Mr. BouDiN. Could counsel define the term "position," Mr. Chair- 
man ? 



822 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Akens. I think he knows what I mean. You know what I 
mean, do you not, Mr. Hunkins? Are you against communism or 
are you for it ? 

Mr. Hunkins. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. DoTLE. Are there any questions from members of the sub- 
committee ? If not, thank you very much. 

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be 
Mr. Arnold Arnstein. 

Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand, Mr. Arnstein. 

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell tlie truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Arnstein. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD ARNSTEIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
LEONARD B. BOUDIN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. Arnstein. My name is Arnold Arnstein. I live at 325 West 
End Avenue. 

Mr. Arens. Kaise your voice, please, Mr. Arnstein. 

Mr. Arnstein. The address is 325 West End Avenue. 

Mr. Arens. Would you speak a little louder? The committee has 
difficulty hearing you. 

Mr. Arnstein. I am sorry. 

Mr. Arens. And your occupation? 

Mr. Arnstein. I am a music copyist. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today in response to a subpena 
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-Amer- 
ican Activities ? 

Mr. Arnstein. Right. 

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Arnstein. I am. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. BouDiN. You mean l^y name and profession, of course. Leon- 
ard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New York 4. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Arnstein, where are you employed? Where is 
the establishment ? 

Mr. Arnstein. I am self-employed. 

Mr. Arens. Where is that ? 

Mr. Arnstein. The same address. 

Mr. Arens. "NAHiat is a music copyist, just a word about it? I don't 
mean an elaborate explanation. 

Mr. Arnstein. Very simply an extraction from score, from an 
orchestral score, of the breakdown of the various instruments. In 
other words, an instrument can't play from a score, but from a part. 

Mr. Arens. What are some of the recent productions in which you 
worked on this musical phase of production ? 

Mr. Arnstein. Well, the Ziegfeld Follies. 

Mr. Arens. The Ziegfeld Follies? 

Mr. Arnstein. Yes. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 823 

Mr. Arens. Give me some more, if you please, sir. 

Mr. Arnstein. Candicle. 

Mr. Arens. Candicle? 

Mr. Arnsteix. Yes; and I am now working on Shinbone Alley. 

Mr. Arexs. Do you know a man by the name of Jesse Solomon ? 

Mr, Arxsteix. Not to ni}- knowledire. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you been connected with the American League 
Against War and Fascism? 

Mr. Arnstetx. I decline to answer that because I have no memory 
of it. 

Mr. Arexs. I would like to display to you, and perhaps it wall 
refresh your recollection, a thermofax reproduction of the letterhead 
of the Chicago Committee, American League Against War and 
Fascism, on which your name, A. Arnstein, appears as a member of the 
executive committee. Kindly see if that refreshes your recollection. 

(Document handed to witness.) 

Mr. Arxsteix. I don't have to look at it, sir. It is somebody else's. 

(Document marked "Arnstein Exhibit No. 1," and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. BouDix. Could I have the last question repeated? 

(The reporter read from his notes as requested.) 

Mr. Arxsteix^ Sir, I left Chicago as a boy of 11. I have never been 
back. This must be somebody else's completely. 

Mr. BouDix. Woidd it help, Counsel, if I point out this is A. Arn- 
stein, instead of having the name. 

Mr. Arexs. Yes; I appreciate the clarification. You first said 
you had no recollection, and now you assert, as I understand it, that it 
was not you. 

Mr. Arxsteix. I have had no connection with Chicago, sir. I went 
to public school there in 1909. 

Mr. Arex'S. There is another matter I want to clear up, before I 
proceed, if you will wait just a moment. 

Mr. Arxsteix. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. Do you know a man by the name of Max Marlin ? 

Mr. Arxsteix. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arexs, Were you here this morning when he testified? 

Mr. Arxsteix. No. 

Mr. Arexs. Are you now^, or have you ever been a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Arxsteix. Am I now ? No, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Arxsteix. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arexs. Were you a member of the Communist Party 5 years 
ago ? 

Mr. Arnstein. No, sir. 



824 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Akens. Were yon a member of the Communist Party 6 years 
ago? 

Mr. Arnsteix. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ? 

Mr. Arnstein. I was born in Budapest, Hungary, October 19, 1898. 

Mr. Arens. And when did you come to the United States ? 

Mr. Arnstein. When I was 4 years old, 4 or 41/2. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ? 

Mr. Arnstein. By derivative citizenship, sir. 

Mr. Arens. You say you are not now^ a member of the Communist 
Party, is that correct? 

Mr. Arnstein. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. What is your position on communism? Are you for it 
or against it? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arnstein. I am against it. 

Mr. Arens. How^ long have you maintained that position? 

Mr. Arnstein. Quite a few years. 

Mr. Arens. Do you presently know, in the musical field, active pro- 
fessional musicians wdio at any time liave been known by you to be 
members of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Arnstein. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same. 

Mr. Arens. If you are against communism, why don't you tell this 
committee the names of people wdiom you know have been, at least to 
your experience, members of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Arnstein. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude 
the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. McIntosh. No questions. 

Mr. Doyle. I want to compliment you on getting out of the Com- 
munist Party some time before 5 years ago, according to your testi- 
mony. 

Mr. Arnstein. If I may, I spoke to Congressman Mcintosh about 
a point. Maybe he can discuss that with you. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. 

The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes. 

(Members present at the taking of the recess : Representatives Clyde 
Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., and Robert J. Mclntosli.) 

(Brief recess.) 

(Members present after the taking of the recess: Representatives 
Clyde Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., and Robert J. Mcintosh.) 

Mr. Doyle. The committee will be in order. Let the record show 
Messrs. Frazier, Mcintosh, and Doyle present. 

Mr. Walters, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, 
the w'hole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Waltep.s. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ALBEET EDWAED WALTEES 

Mr. Arens. Identify jourself bv na]ne, residence, and occupation. 

Mr. Walters. Albert Edward Walters, 169-18 115th Avenue, St. 
Albans, N. Y. 

Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today as a voluntary witness with- 
out counsel, is that correct ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN JMUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 825 

Mr. Walters. I am. That is coirt'ct. 

Mr. Areks. Mr. Walters, where are you employed^ 

Mr. Doyle. May I make this interjection, Counsel? You are per- 
fectly Avilling to proceed without counsel by your side, without legal 
counsel ? 

Mr. Walters. Yes, sii'. 

Mr. DoYT.E. All right. 

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Walters, wdiere are you emi)k)yed? 

Mr. Walters. I am employed in local 802. 

Mr. Arexs. In what capacity? 

Mr. Walters. I am now a member of the executive board. 

Mr. Arexs. You are known not onl}' as Edward Walters, but also 
as ""Tiny" Walters, are yon not ? 

Mr. Walters. That is right. That is a nickname. 

Mr. Arexs. That is a reference to your height, is it not ? 

Mr. Walters. That is correct. 

Mr. Doyle. How tall are you. Tiny ? 

Mr. Walters. I am near 6 feet 5 inches, sir. 

Mr. Arex^s. This morning you were identified by Mr. Marlin, Max 
Marlin, as a person known by him to have been a member of the Com- 
uiunist Party. Was he truthful in that identification? 

Mr. Walitsrs. I was a member. 

]Mr. Arex^s. And we talked with you — and I say we, on the 
staff, we talked with you — at considerable length, did we not, and 
proposed you as a friendly witness ? 

Mr. Walters. That is correct. 

Mr. Arexs. We decided not to, because your identification or refer- 
ence to certain people was not too accurate or too positive; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Walters. That is correct. 

Mr. Arexs. But you wanted to appear before the committee and 
make it clear that you are no longer a member of the Communist 
Party ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Walters. No. I haven't been. 

Mr. Arexs. Tell us very briefly the circumstances of your member- 
ship in the Communist Party, the period of time during which you 
were a member of the Communist Party, and any other item of infor- 
mation of which you are absolutely certain. 

Mr. Walters. There was local autonomy in the union. The union 
was run by the federation at one time, the American Federation of 
Musicians. Then we had an election and we had local autonomy. I 
think it was 1935. 

]Mr. Arexs. By the union, you mean Local 802 ? 

Mr. Walters. Local 802. At that time, they had some members 
of the then executive board — well, there was a grou]^ of men that ran 
for different boards, the executive board and trial board. I know 
that there were 2 members of the executive board and 2 members of 
tlie trial board that were members of the Connnunist Party. 

But in those days, in the 1930's, in the early 1930's, I pei*sonally 
didn't know wdiat the Communist Party was. The only thing I know 
is that the union was fighting for, w^ell, increases of pay, and condi- 
tions, and all that sort of thing. In the meantime, these fellows that 
went around, they came to me and they told me that they are fighting 
for Negroes and fighting for rights of everybody and raising scales 



826 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

of the union. I was there, I got $5 a day, I was working 1 day a week. 
Then 2 days a week, then 3 days a week. 

Mr. Arens. But you did join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Walters. I did. I did. Yes; I did join. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Walters. About 3 years or 4 years. I am not sure. It is in 
the 1930's. 

Mr. Arens. We decided did we not, sometime ago, after extensive 
staff interviews with you, that your identification of certain people 
was not sufficiently positive in your own mind that you should testify 
in public session ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Walters. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. You broke with the Communist Party; did you not? 

Mr. Walters. I certainly did. 

Mr. Arens. And you were willing to testify on behalf of your 
Government ? 

Mr. Walters. That is correct. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. You will have to refresh my recollection because I do 
]iot have with me here this afternoon the file on your case, but are 
there persons that you can positively identify ? 

Mr. Walters. Yes, I can positively identify 2 wlio were on the 
trial board and 2 on the executive board. I can identify them because 
I have seen them. In fact, one of the board members, Freed, his 
secretary. Miss Gold. She is the one that got me into the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Arens. Was her name Miriam Gold ? 

Mr. Walters. That must be her name. 

Mr. Arens. Was she the one who recruited you into the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Walters. Yes. 

Mr, Arens. Do you here and now identify lier as a person known 
to you to be a Communist ? 

Mr. Walters. She gave me the form. I don't know she is a Com- 
munist. You know, she wasn't a musician, so the meetings that I 
attended she was never tliere. But she was the one tliat gave me the 
forms. 

Mr. Arens. You see, that is just the point I made in our staff 
interview. 

Mr. Walters. Tliat is right. 

Mr. Arens. I want you to be either certain that a person is a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party or not to name or identify them. 

Mr. Walters. I assume she was a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. We do not want assumptions. We want only people 
that you can identify from your certain knowledge, that you can 
identify as members. Notwithstanding what the leftwing press and 
Communist press say about it, we want to be fair and sincere. We 
will make no further reference to this Miss Gold. 

Are there any persons you can to a certainty identify as mem- 
bers of the Communist Party, namely, people you served in closed 
Communist Party meetings with? 

Mr. Walters. Well, there were three. David Freed, he was a mem- 
ber of the executive board. 

Mr. xVrens. He has already been identified on this record, so I 
think it would be all right for us to proceed with you on him just 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 827 

for an instant. Did you ever serve in a closed Communist Party 
meeting with David Freed ? 

Mr. Walters. Yes. He was tlie one tliat spoke. 

Mr. Arens. "Were these closed Communist Party meetings ? 

Mr. Walters. Yes, they were closed Communist Party meetings. 

Mr. Arexs. Did you ever serve in a closed Communist Party meet- 
ing with George Koukly ? 

]Mr. Walters. Yes, he was one of the men. He was on the executive 
board of 802, and he was 1 of the 4 that I am talking about. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in a closed Communist Party meet- 
ing with him? 

Mr. Walters. I have seen him there, yes. 

Mr. Arens. Who was the third? You said there were four. Was 
Sidney Feldman one of them? 

Mr. Walters. Yes, Sidney Feldman. 

Mr. Arens. The only reason T am using this in this record at this 
time is that these people have been otherwise identified. 

Sidney Feldman ? 

Mr. Walters. Correct. 

Mr. Arens. Did you serve in a closed Communist Party meeting 
with him ? 

Mr. Walters. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Albert Modiano? 

Mr. Walters. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You served in a closed Communist Party meeting with 
him ? 

Mr. Walters. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. He has been otherwise identified. 

Arthur Turkischer? I do not believe he has been on this record. 
I do not believe he has been identified on this record in the last 2 
days, but I would like to ask you if you have a certain knowledge of 
having served in a closed Communist Party meeting with Arthur 
Turkischer. 

Mr. Walters. Arthur Turkischer, I remember him because there 
was a quartet that I remember him playing with, two violins, a viola, 
and a cello. I saw him in this quartet and, of course, I was interested 
in him. But as far as serving with him, I can't say I served with 
him. 

Mr. Do^T^E. ]SIay I make sure this name of Miriam Gold is stricken ? 
We are not undertaking to identify her. 

Mr. Arens. I would suggest that, rather than it be stricken, it be 
left as it is in the record. We have made it clear in the record that 
this witness cannot identify her. 

Mr. Doyle. All right. But let the record show that this witness 
l)as not identified her, and, therefore, we are not identifying Miriam 
Gold as a Communist. 

Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Dotij:. And the same is true in the case of Turkischer? 

Mr. Arens. Turkischer is in the same status as far as this particular 
witness is concerned ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Walters. Can I explain something ? 



828 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. I believe the committee will appreciate why we con- 
cluded staffwise not to use this man as a friendly witness, although he 
is perfectly sincere and honest. We believe his identifications of a 
number of people are so vague, and it stretches back over such a num- 
ber of years, that we did not want to enlist him as a friendly witness. 
But his appearance here is at liis own choice because he has 
been named as n one-time member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Doyle. I am sure you will make certain, Counsel, that the 
record clearly does not identify the name of any person that he names 
unless he positively identifies him. 

Mr. Aeens. Yes, sir. 

There is one last name we want to ask you about in this brief inter- 
rogation, namely, Carroll Hollister. 

If it is only a vague remembrance, Mr. Walters, we would rather 
not proceed further. 

Mr. Walters. I can't say that I have seen him. 

Mr. Arexs. We do not want this record at any time to reflect any 
testimony by yourself adverse to Carroll Hollister. 

Mr. Walters. I would like to say something, sir. 

In those years, musicians, Negro musicians and white nnisicians, 
the Negro musicians came to tlie union, paid their dues, and left. 
They had no association with white musicians. That is all they did. 
Of course, when there was local autonomy, you had a change, and 
these fellows, the}' were going to fight for Negro rights, unionism, 
and so on, and they would tell you to join the Communist Party; 
that it is good for you ; that they are going to help you, they are 
going to help Negroes. So I joined the party. I think I paid 10 
cents a week or 15 cents a week at that time as a member. I think 
that is what it was. 

I saw people at some meetings. No. 1, some of those meetings I 
was not sure whether it was a Communist Party meeting or just a 
union meeting, because they would talk about unionism, and at times 
they would talk about — not talk, but sell literature. So I didn't know 
which was the Communists meetings and which was on the floor. 

Another thing is, while I am still hazy on names now, in those days, 
when you would meet these musicians, they would call, you know, 
John, Joe, or one of those, so I didn't know who was who. 

Lately I have seen faces and seen people that I have met in those 
years, and within myself I am not positive if I did see this fellow 
at this meeting, that meeting, or which meeting. 

Mr. Arens. We understand that, Mr. Walters. You Iiave accom- 
plished your objective today, have you not? You first of all ad- 
mitted that you liave been a member of the Communist Party in 
accordance with the testimony of Mr. Marlin; is that correct? 

Mr. Walters. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And you deny that you are presently a member of the 
party or that you have been for many years; is that correct? 

Mr. Walters. That is correct. And not only that, I have been 
actively, for I don't know how many years, fighting against these 
people, and from my record and my conduct, everyone knows that 
I am strictly anti-Communist, because I call them phonies, as far as 
I am concerned. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 829 

Mr. Arj^ns. Mr. (1iairiii;ui, I respectfully suggest that that will 
conclude the statf interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Frazier. I want to thank you, JSIr. Walters, for coming down 
to testify. 

Mr. Walters. Thank you. 

Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Walters. 

The committee now stands in recess until 10 a. m. tomorrow. 

(AVliereupon, at 3:45 p. m., Thursday, April 11, the committee 
recessed, to reconvene at 10 a. m., Friday, April 12, 1957.) 

(Members present at the taking of the recess : Representatives Clyde 
Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., and Robert J. Mcintosh.) 



INVESTIGATION OF C03I3ILMSM IN THE METROPOLI- 
TAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC., AND RELATED FIELDS- 
PART 2 



FRIDAY, APRIL 12, 1957 

United States House of Representati\'es, 

Subcommittee or the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

New York, N. Y. 
public hearing 

The siibcomniiitee of the Committee on Un-American Activities 
met at 10 a. m., pursuant to recess, in room 85, United States 
Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, X. Y., Hon. Morgan M. 
Moulder (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder, 
of Missouri; Clyde Doyle, of California; James B. Frazier, Jr., of 
Tennessee; and Robert J. Mcintosh, of Michigan. 

Staff members present : Richard Arens, director ; Dolores Scotti, 
investigator; and Frank Bonora, acting clerk. 

Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will be in order. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Benny Berrafato, please come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before the subcommittee will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I do. 

Mr. Moulder. Of course, the record will show that a quorum is 
present consisting of Mr. Mcintosh, Mr. Frazier, Mr, Dojde, and 
myself. 

That constitutes a quorum. 

TESTIMONY OF BENNY BERKAFATO, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Berrafato. Bennv Berrafato, 45-06 156th Street, Flushing:, 
N. Y. . ^ . ' S' 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing here today, Mr. Berrafato, in re- 
sponse to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Com- 
mittee on Un-Ajnerican Activities I 

Mr. Berrafato. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Berrafato. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. Needleman. I am Isidore G. Xeedleman, 165 Broadway, Xew 
York, N. Y. 

831 



832 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born, Mr. Berrafato? 

Mr. Berrafato. I was born in Italy, May 24, 1899. 

Mr. Arens. And wlien did you come to the United States for perma- 
nent rasidence ? 

Mr. Berrafato. 1921. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ? 

Mr. Berrafato. Yes. 

Mr, Arens. Did you become a citizen of the United States by deri- 
vation or naturalization? 

Mr. Berrafato. By naturalization. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you naturalized ? 

Mr. Berrafato. 1929. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mr. Berrafato. Here in New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I am self-employed. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mr. Berrafato. My home. 

Mr. Arens. In what capacity ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I am a businessman. 

Mr. Arens. What type of business ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I sell musical instruments. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have a store at your home ? 

Mr. Berrafato. At my home, yes. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in that type of work ? 

Mr. Berrafato. About 6 years. 

Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to your 
present enterprise? 

Mr. Berrafato. I was a free-lance musician ; whenever I could get 
the job, I played it. 

Mr. Arens. What instrument did you play? 

Mr, Berrafato. Clarinet, 

Mr, Arens, Where did you play ? 

Mr, Berrafato, All over New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of Local 802 [American 
Federation of Musicians] ? 

Mr. Berrafato. Yes, I still am a member of Local 802. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever held an office in Local 802 ? 

Mr. Berrafato. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Leonard Cherlin ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Leonard Cherlin took an oath before this committee 
in the course of the last day or two and swore that wliile he was a 
member of the Communist Party, he knew you as a Communist. Was 
he lying or was he telling the truth ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline on the fiftli amendment. 

Mr. Arens. In Local 802, did you form a fraction or were you a 
member of a fraction of Local 802 ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Andrea Scialo ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline under the fifth amendment . 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Ralph Addonizzio ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline under the fifth amendment . 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 833 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Barney Gianibalvo? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Joseph Licari? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Louis Critelli ? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. xVrens. Vincent Ilossitto? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now^ a Communist? 

Mr. Berrafato. I decline under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude 
the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions, Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Dotle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Mcintosh. 

Mr. McIntosh. No questions. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier. 

Mr. Frazier, I have no questions. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Seymour Levittaii, please come forward. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are 
about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Lea^ttan. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF SEYMOUR LEVITTAN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. LEvrrrAN. My name is Seymour Levittan. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Levittan, would you please raise your voice? 

Mr. LE^^TTAN. Yes. My name is Seymour Levittan. I live in 
Closter, N. J., and I am a musician by occupation. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Levittan, without coun- 
sel, as a friendly w' itness ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Leviti'an. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. '\\^iere are you employed ? 

Mr. Levitiwn. I am a free-lance musician. I play various club dates 
and dates of that sort. 

Mr. Arens. Mr, Levittan, I do not mean to be at all discourteous; 
})ut if you will keep your voice up, the committee will be better able 
to hear you. 

Mr. Levittan. I am sorry, I have a throat condition and I am 
trying to clear it up. 

Mr. Arens. You were telling us, Mr. Levittan, about your 
employment. 

Mr. Levittan. I am a free-lance musician. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Connumiist Party ? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Arens. Kindly tell us the circumstances of your joining the 
Connnunist Party and the period of membership by youreelf in the 
('ommunist Party. 

Mr. Levittan. I don't know" the exact dates; but, as I search my 
memory, it occurred somewhere during the period 1938 or 1939. I 
was a member probably well up until 1940, probably — I am not sure 



834 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

of the dates on this at all — and at about which time I gradually be- 
gan to drift away. Eventually, I would say about that time, I 
severed my membership completely. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us what precipitated your disassociation 
from tlie Communist Party ? 

Mr. Levittan. At about that time ]Mr. Hitler was very prominent 
in world affairs, and one of the things that led me to look toward 
the Communist Party for a possible answer to what he represented — 
how does that sentence read so far ? 

Mr. Arens. What caused you to leave the Communist Party? 

Mr. Le\t:ttan. Yes. Well, Mr. Hitler was abroad, and that was 
one of the reasons why I was led to look toward the Communist 
Party for a possible solution. I felt very strongly about him, and 
persecution, and what he represented. 

In 1940, I think it was — whatever the date of the Nazi-Soviet 
pact— that is about the time I received this terrible blow. I tried to 
rationalize it. I tried to listen to all the arguments pro and con, 
but in my heart I was never able to actually accommodate myself 
to an alliance between communism and fascism. I couldn't see it. 

Mr. Arexs. To what cell or unit of the Communist Party were 
you assigned? 

Mr. Levittan. I belonged to a group whicli was connected to Local 
802. 

Mr. Arens. Was it a fraction within Local 802 of the musicians' 
union [American Federation of Musicians] ? 

Mr. Levittan. I think that is the term, if I remember it correctly. 

Mr. ApcENS. Is that the only cell or unit to which you were as- 
signed when you were active ? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us, first of all, some of the activities of 
the cell to whicli you were assigned ? 

Mr. Levittan. Well, I might say that my feeling against Hitler 
and what he represented was the one motivating force. The other 
was the fact that there was unemployment and poverty. 

Mr. Arens. Do you mean that was the motivating force that 
caused you to affiliate with the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes. And the second motivating force was un- 
t^mployment, poor conditions, underscale playing, and many problems 
which beset musicians in general. In an attempt to try to improve 
the conditions, the working conditions, of musicians generally, I 
affiliated with the Communist Party. They were engaged in those 
activities. 

Mr. Arens. Now tell us, if you please, sir, some of the activities of 
the Communist fraction within Local 802 of the musicians"' union 
to which you were attached as a Communist. 

Mr. Levittan. Well, the tactic of the Communist Party was to 
work for the actual betterment of conditions for musicians in order 
to attract people; and then, of course, the local union conditions were 
tied up with international conditions tliat eventually led to a political 
point of view ; and the activities that I did engage in were activities 
in that direction, activities intended to improve the conditions of 
musicians. I became active in union politics, as such. 

]Mr. Arens. You did not at that time recognize the conspiratorial 
nature of the Communist Party ; is that correct ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 835 

Mr. Levittan. No. I felt, at that time, that it was accomplishing 
a twofold piu'iDose: improving our economic conditions and, at the 
same time, fighting what was abroad in the world at that time. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the names of people with whom 
you served in closed Communist Party meetings; people who, to your 
certain knowledge, were members of the Communist Party within the 
Local 802 to which you were attached ? 

Mr. Levittan. Prefacing this, might I say this : The activities en- 
gaged in were mainly in the field of union politics. The purpose of 
these activities was to engage a lot of i)eople. A lot of peoj^le were 
})rought in who were not Communists, just as I was not when I was 
brought in. 

There were countless and hundreds of meetings. There was some- 
thing going on all the time. I counted a lot of people, most of whom 
I might say, were not Communists. Consequently, the people that 
stand out in my mind, in that period in my mind, is an amalgamation 
of names and places ; and it is very hard for me to pinpoint specific 
people. It is very difficult. I have searched my conscience. I don't 
want to make any statements, as I said to you, that are irresponsible, 
because I know damage can be done. 

I remember certain people. I remember James Collis. 

Mr. Arens. Just a moment, if you please. Did you serve in a 
closed Communist Party meeting with James Collis ? 

Mr. Levittan. I did. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of identification of James 
Collis? 

Mr. Levittan. He is a clarinet player. 

Mr. Arens. He was a member of this Communist fraction within 
Local 802; is that correct? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know David Freed ? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Was he a Communist? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Was he within this Communist fraction of Local 802 ? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes. 

INIr. Arens. Can you give us a word of identification of David 
Freed? 

Mr. Levittan. He is a cellist. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person as a Communist by the name 
of Sidney Feldman? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of identification of Sidney 
Feldman ? 

Mr. Levittan. He was a saxophone player. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Connnunist a person by the name 
of George Koukly ? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of identification of George 
Koukly ? 

Mr. Levittan. He played bass, bass violin. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Communist a person by the name of 
Max Goberman? 

91198— 57— pt. 2 6 



836 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Levittan. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us, please, a word of identification about 
him ? 

Mr. Levittan. He was a violinist. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Connnunist a person by the name 
of KobertorBobEeid? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes, I remember him. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of identification about him? 

Mr. Levittan. I think he was an artist. 

Mr. Arens. What type of an artist? Do you mean he painted 
pictures ? 

Mr. T^evittan. I think so, yes. I remember him as some sort of 
cultural representative. I don't remember exactly. 

Mr, Akens. Wliat was he doing in the musicians local, then? 

Mr. Levittan. He must have been a representative from a higher 
organizational setup. 

Sir. Arens. Have you served in a meeting with Ivol)ert Reid in 
which only Communists were admitted, a closed Communist meeting? 

Mr. Levittan. I believe so. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Comnumist a person by the name 
of Jesse Solomon? 

]\Ir. Levittan. Yes, I did. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And give us a word of characterization or description 
of Jesse Solomon? 

Mr. Levittan. He is a pianist. 

Mr. Moulder. What date are you referring to in your identifica- 
tion of the parties that you are naming? 

Mr. Levittan. During this general period in which I was a 
member. 

Mr. Moulder. "Wlien was that? 

Mr. Le\tttan. Well, as I described it earlier, approximately 1938- 
39 — -somewhere in there, Avlien I entered — to 1940 or 1941, when I 
drifted away. 

Mr. AitENS. Did you know as a Connnunist a person by the name 
of Sol Dzazga? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Arens. Can you give us a word of description about that, 
person ? 

Mr. Levittan. He played the trumpet. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know as a Communist a person l)y the name 
ofSolHoff? 

Mr. Le\tttan. He was a saxoplione player. Yes, I did. He was 
a saxophone player. 

Mr. Arens. Did the Communist fraction within Local 802 
undertake to control the policies of Local 802 or to take over the 
government of Local 802 ? 

Mr. Levittan. Our policy at that time was to raise various issues 
for the economic betterment of the musicians, from day to day, and 
thus attract people. The party carrying that out — participation was 
always in a minority faction — became part of a larger group and 
would involve a lot of people who were not Communists, and have 
election campaigns, be involved in election campaigns. 

Mr. Arens. Did you join the Army or enter the Armed Forces? 

Mr. LE^^:TTAN. I did. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 837 

Mr. Arens. When was that ^ 

Mr. Lev^ttan. March *.), 194:3. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you serve in the Armed Forces? 

Mr. Le\t;ttax. Until 1945, December 9. 

Mr. Arexs. After you were discharged from the Armed Forces, 
were any overtures or approaches made to you by persons who had 
been in the Communist Party ? 

Mr. LE^^TTAX. Might I preface my answer this way: By tlie tinie 
I came out of the Army, I certainly felt strongly against Connuunist 
theory and doctrine. IVhen I came out, I didn't go near the union^ — 
let me withdraw that. I did not engage in union activity, as such, 
for possibly a year or even more. I just kept away. I had so many 
things that I wanted to do, and starting a new life after coming out 
of the Army, that I just completely disassociated niyself from any 
political work or union politics, or anything of that kind, for possibly 
a year or maybe 2 years. 

Would you repeat the question, please? 

Mr. Arexs. I just asked you if, after you were discharged from tlie 
United States Army — and I believe you said that was in 1945 — did 
any Communist make any overtures or approaches to you to re- 
engage in Communist activity or to reaffiliate with the Communist 
Party. 

Mr. Leviitax. Now I have picked up the thread. Because of the 
complete separation from union activity, nobody approached me dur- 
ing that period. Then as I came back and engaged in legitiniate union 
politics, a lot of the people who are now part of the administration, 
there were subtle overtures made to me from tune to time in a very 
roundabout way, which, liaving been a Communist, I recognized as 
feelers. 

Mr. Arexs. What was the nature of those overtures? 

Mr. Levittax. Progressive talk of some kind, sort of discussing 
issues and "How do you feel about this?'' 

Mr. Arexs. Was this progressive talk or overtures that you have 
alluded to by persons who had been in the Communist Party cell with 
you ? 

Mr. Levittax. Might have been. Might have been. 

Mr. Arexs. Is there any other item of information which you would 
like to bring to the attention of the committee with reference to your 
experience and knowledge of Communist activities in the field of 
music or among musicians ? 

Mr. Levittax. Just that I feel I was a starry-eyed idealist at that 
time, and these issues wliich were raised, like musicians work 7 days a 
week, some musicians would work a year or 2 without a day off, they 
were medieval, actuallj', and we were impelled to try to do something 
about it. 

We would have an engagement on which the scale was $20, and a 
man who would go out and work all night and get $8. It was under- 
scale playing. You couldn't exist from it. Many of us were existing 
marginally. We didn't know where our rent was coming from or 
where our food was coming from. There was just a few cents in our 
pockets. 

When we were drawn into the movement, we worked to ameliorate 
these conditions. Working to ameliorate these conditions, in turn, 
was tied up with politics, and, naturally, we fell easy prey to it. 



838 COIMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

I know this, that many people appear before this committee and 
invoke the fifth. I personally feel that I have committed no crime. 
The fifth amendment is intended to those that honestly feel that some- 
thing they have done is criminal. 

I feel that I honestly worked for what I thought was right, what 
would help musicians and myself. So I have not invoked the fifth 
amendment. 

I say this, that I am aware of the international scene, the interna- 
tionarsituation today in which the world is divided into two forces; 
and I Ivnow exactly where I stand, I stand on the side of the United 
States of America. And I say that in my association with the Com- 
munist movement, I know I committed no act of subversion or dis- 
loyalty against my country, nor could I ever. I also know of no act 
of subversion or disloyalty by the people I met in the Communist 
Party. If I had known or encountered such act of subversion or dis- 
loyalty, I would have reported it to the proper authorities immedi- 
ately. 

Mr. Arens. Thank you very much. 

I respectfully, Mr. "Chairman, suggest that will conclude the staff 
interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. ^Nlr. Doyle, have you any questions? 

Mr. Doyle. First, before I ask you a couple of questions, I want to 
thank you and compliment you for having backbone and the placing 
of your country as paramount in your experience. I especially noted 
in your statement the fact that you were not claiming the fifth amend- 
ment because you felt you had committed no crime. Of course, we 
recognize that back in 1930 and 19-fO — personally I recognize that up 
until 1945, up until the time Earl Browder was kicked out the Com- 
mmiist Party leadership as a result of the Duclos letter, and the sub- 
versive element of the Communist Party took over, which it did, and 
still has in our country, it still does it, it still controls it — I recognize 
that, up until that time, there were thousands of patriotic Americans 
who, for ideological purposes or reasons or because of unemployment 
or because of the stresses and strains, did identify themselves with 
the Communist Party witliout any intent to subvert our constitutional 
foi'm of government. Apparently you were one of them. 

Mr. Chairman, I wish to say this: I do not assume, and I anticipate 
that no member of this committee assumes, that because of this revela- 
tion this morning and, previously, of several apparent leaders in Local 
802 ]>eing identified as Communists, I do not assume that any large 
number of Local 802 were then, or still are, Communists. I do not 
assmne that for a minute. But too many of them are .still apparently 
Communists for the good of the union oi" the good of the country. 

Mr. Witness, I noticed — and I want to take a couple of minutes if 
I can to ask you a couple of questions — as I wrote down part of your 
statement as you gave it, when counsel asked you about the participa- 
tion of the Communist Party cell of which you were a member in 
Local 802, you replied this, in substance : to participate as a minority 
group in election cam})aigns of the union. Do you remember so 
stating ? 

Mr. Le\^ttan-. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. To me, in my experience on this committee over a term 
of years, that means — and you tell me if I am in error — that the Com- 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN IMUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 839 

iniinist cell in 802, at the time you were in it, those 2 or 3 years, was 
a minority group in the union. That is true, is it not? 

Mr. IjEvittax. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. But you did actively seek to influence election cam- 
paigns in the union as Communists ? 

Mr. Le\'ittax. Let me differentiate betAveen the minority group and 
the union, certainly also a minority group and whichever side they 
happened to be supporting in that particular election. 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, but also as a minority group, your Communist 
fraction cell, nevertheless, made up of union members, did function 
as a Communist minority group ? 

INIr. Levittan. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. Again this is a case, Mr. Chairman, where the Com- 
munists in a local union, in a labor union, always seek to dominate 
the policy. "When they get enough members, they want to control 
the policy for the sake of the Communist Party objectives instead of 
the legitimate local free union policy. 

I noticed one other statement that you made. You said, in sub- 
stance, "I came back and engaged in legitimate union politics." You 
used the term "legitimate union politics." Do you remember that? 

Mr. Levittan. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. You said, "As I came back and engaged in legitimate 
union politics, there were feelers put out to me." Why did you use 
that term "legitimate union politics" ? 

Mr. LE\^TTAX. As opposed to union politics which are dominated 
by Communists who might have 

Mr. Doyle. As opposed to union politics as dominated by the Com- 
munist Party fraction cell in the union; is that correct? 

jNIr. LE^^TTA]sr. That is right. 

]\Ir. Doyle. That is what I anticipated. Here is another case 
where a former Communist recognizes now that the activities of the 
Communist cell in Local 802 were not legitimate, but were an eifort to 
control Local 802 by the Communist philosophy instead of free 
American labor-union policy. Am I in error or am I right? 

Mr. LE\aTTAN. I think you are right. 

Mr. Doyle. Again I want to compliment you, young man, on hav- 
ing the backbone to come out here, because, of course, there are a few 
people in the room here — not too many, I hope, but I think a few, 
and there will be a few others — who will call you a stool pigeon be- 
cause you had the backbone to come out and take a position of co- 
operating with your Government instead of cooperating with some 
men and women who are still under the Communist domination and 
control. 

As I said yesterday, I can understand how thousands of patriotic 
American citizens went into the Commie outfit up until late 1945. But 
how in the world any lawyer or any doctor or any preacher or any 
patriotic American citizen can still stay in it, I do not undei-stand. 
There is a clear line of cleavage. The Communist philosophy is com- 
peting with our own American, free-enterprise, capitalist system, and 
that is the issue. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr. Frazier, have you any questions? 

Mr. Frazier. I have no questions. 

Mr. ;^[ouLDER. Mr. Mcintosh? 

Mr. McIntosh. I haA^e no questions. 



840 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Moulder. "We appreciate your appearance before the committee 
and appreciate the information you have given as a witness. Thank 
you very much. You are excused. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Max Goberman, please come forward. 

My. Moulder. Woukl you be sworn, please? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about 
to give before the committee Avill be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. GoBER:\LA]sr. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MAX GOBERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

PAUL L. ROSS 

Mr. Arexs. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. GoBERMAisr. My name is Max Goberman. I live in Glen Gard- 
ner, N. J., and my occupation is musician. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Goberman, in response to 
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un- 
American Activities? 

]Mr. GoBERMA?^^. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel? 

Mr. Goberman. Yes; I am. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself? 

Mr. Ross. Paul L. Ross, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Levittan, would you look around please? Mr. 
Goberman, this gentleman here, Mr. Levittan, a few moments ago, 
wliile he was under oath, identified you as a person whom he had 
known to a certainty to be a Communist. 

Mr. Levittan, please look around here again. 

"Was Mr. Levittan lying or was he telling the truth when he swore 
that you were a Communist? 

Mr. Goberman. I must refuse to answer that question under the first 
and the fifth amendments. 

]\Ir. Doyle. I wish the record to show that the witness now in the 
witness chair was in the room. I personally observed him within easy 
hearing distance of Mr. Levittan when Mr. Levittan identified him. 
I noticed him. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliere and when were you born, Mr. Goberman ? 

Mr. Goberman. I was born in Philadelphia, February 8, 1911. 

Mr. Arens. Give us, if you please, sir, a brief sketch of your edu- 
cation. 

Mr. Goberman. May I ask how this is pertinent to the inquiry? 

Mr. Arens. INIr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness 
be ordered and directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer the 
question. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Goberman. The question, again, was, sir 

Mr. Arens. Please give us a brief sketch of your education. 

Mr. Goberman. I am a public-school graduate, a high-school gradu- 
ate, a graduate of music school. 

Mr. Arens. And what music school did you attend, please, sir ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN IVIUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 841 

Mr. GoBER:\rAX. I am a graduate of the Curtis Institute of Music. 

Mr. Arens. Where is that located, please, sir? 

Mr. GoBERMAN. Phihidelphia, Pa. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien did you complete your education ? 

Mr. GoBERMAN. I am not sure of the exact time 

Mr. Arens. Your best recollection. 

Mr. GoBERMAN. 1 would say, to my best recollection, about 1942. 

Mr. Arens. "Would you kindly tell us the principal employments 
which you had since you completed your formal musical education? 

Mr. Goberman. My principal employments have been so varied, 
and I have really done so many different things, that I think it would 
be quite hard for me to recollect all of them. 

Mr. Ajrens. Well, let us try it this way, then: Where Avere you 
working, say, in 1942, immediately after you concluded your musical 
education ? 

Mr. Goberman. I believe, to the best of my recollection, that I was 
playing in commercial radio. 

Mr. Arens. And where were you playing in commercial radio? 

Mr. Goberman. In New York. 

Mr. Arens. For whom were you employed? 

Mr. Goberman. I was a free lance. I was employed by any num- 
ber of people. 

Mr. Arens. How long did you engage in that type of work, as a 
free-lance musician in commercial radio ? 

Mr. Goberman. That is hard for me to say. It was an on-and-off 
affair. 

Mr. Arens. Was it a matter of a year ? 

Mr. Goberman. More than 1 year. 

Mr. Arens. Two years ? 

Mr. Goberman. Probably about 2 years, yes. 

Mr. Arens. That gets us up to about 1945, does it not ? 

Mr. Goberman. Did we start in 1942 ? 

Mr. Arens. 1943, I believe. Pick us up in 1945 in the chronology 
of your employments, and tell us then where you were engaged. 

Mr. Goberman. I believe I then became a conductor and did some 
musical shows. 

Mr. xIrens. What musical shows did you do ? 

Mr. Goberman. I believe my first musical show was "Helen Goes to 
Troy." 

Mr. Arens. Where was that produced ? 

Mr. Goberman. In a New York theater. I can't remember the name 
of it offhand. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have another one that comes to your mind about 
that period of time, in which you were the conductor ? 

Mr. Goberman. Yes. I believe I toured with a musical show called 
Vincent Youmans' Review. 

Mr. Arens. Did you tour the United States or did you go abroad? 

Mr. Goberman. In the United States and I believe they were in 
Canada for a few days. I may be wrong on time here. 

Mr. Arens. I just want your recollection. Sometimes we are a 
little vague on things of that character. 

Mr. Goberman. I must insist that my memory on the time of these 
things — all the information I am giving you is correct, but I must 



842 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL^ INC. 

repeat again that I can be awfully bad on time and I don't have a 
good memory for years and time. 

Mr. Arens. That is miderstandable. Now are we up to about 1946 ? 

Mr. GoBERMAN. I hesitate to say that because it just occurs to me 
that this Youmans' Review was much earlier. 

Mr. Arens. AVell, just tell us, what was your next series of em- 
ployments after you concluded this conducting work in which you 
conducted a series of plays to which you have referred. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. GoBERMAN. I believe at this time, if my memory serves me 
correctly, I became musical director for the Ballet Theater. 

Mr. Arens. Where is that ? 

Mr. GoBERMAN. Well, I don't know where it is now. It is touring 
now, but at that time I conducted for it in New York and touring this 
country. 

Mr. Arens. Give us just a word of description or characterization 
of Ballet Theater. I take it, from what you say now, it is not a physi- 
cal place like the Orpheum Theater or the RCA Theater, but it is a 
production, is that not correct ? 

Mr. Goberman. It is a performing group of ballet dancers. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you the musical director of that organi- 
zation ? 

Mr. Goberman. I believe for about 6 years. 

Mr. Arens. Was that your sole or principal occupation during the 
6-year period ? 

Mr. Goberman. Principally, I would say, not sole. 

Mr. Arens. That gets us up, then, into the early 1950's, does it not? 

Mr. Goberman. I believe so, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us what was your next occupation or activity, 
professionally ? 

Mr. Goberman. Well, then I believe I did another Broadway show 
after that. 

Mr. Arens. As a musical director? 

Mr. Goberman. As a conductor. 

Mr. Arens. A conductor ? 

Mr. Goberman. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you recall the name of the show ? 

Mr. Goberman. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. 

Mr. Arens. I take it that was performed here in New York City ? 

Mr. Goberman. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Now, do you recall the next one ? 

Mr. Goberman. That was my last show. 

Mr. Arens. Then what did you do after you concluded your work 
as conductor of the musical part of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn? 

Mr. Goberman. I took up teaching. 

Mr. Arens. Teaching music, of course. And where did you teach ? 

Mr. Goberman. Near my home, in the general neighborhood of 
where I live. 

Mr. Arens. Did you teach in some institution ? 

Mr. Goberman. No. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have a connection with some institution ? 

Mr. Goberman. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What did you teacli in the line of music, just conduct- 
ing or piano ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 843 

Mr. GoBERMAN. No. Violin. I am originally a violinist. 

Mr, Arexs. How long did you engage in teaching ? 

Mr. GoBERMAN. I am still engaged in it. 

Mr. Arens. Has that been your principal occupation since you 
concluded the musical work on A Tree Grows in Brooklyn? 

Mr. GoBERMAx. Yes. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you ever conducted for the Voice of America? 

Mr. Gober:max. To my best knowledge, no. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you ever conducted any orchestra for any pro- 
duction whicli has been, directly or indirectly, sponsored by any 
agency of the United States Government? 

Mr. GoBERMAX. Excuse me. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. GoBERMAN^. I must say it would be impossible for me to answer 
that question. I don't really know. I have made, in the course of 
my conducting, numerous recoi'dings, as, for example, to do a Broad- 
way show and that show is then recorded. I have no control over 
what happens to the recording. You can understand that. 

Mr. Arexs. I understand. But have you, with your own conscious 
knowledge, engaged in any pi'oduction under the auspices of any 
agency of the United States Government ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr, Gobermax^. It is very hai-d for me to answer that question, be- 
cause some of my work — for instance, for a while, I was doing record- 
ing for documentary films. Some of these films may have been used 
by the United States Government. 

Mr. Arexs. You do not know whether or not they were, is that 
correct ? 

Mr. GoBERMAX. I can't say positively yes or no. I can't say that 
I have ever seen them, you know, in actual 

Mr. Arex^s. "Well, we want you just to tell us your best recollection. 

Mr. GoBERMAX. Yes. That is to my best recollection. 

Mr. Arexs. I am not pressing you on it, you understand. 

Mr. GoBERMAX^. No, I am trying my best to tell you these things. 

Mr. Arex^s. I know a man is normallj^ disposed to be reluctant to 
commend his own talents, particularly in the musical field. You have 
obtained a considerable success as a conductor and as a musician, have 
you not ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arexs. Well, have you received considerable publicity as a 
prominent conductor? 

Mr. GoBERMAx. I wouldn't say so, sir. I certainly would not say 
so. If you want me to characterize myself, I will be glad to. 

Mr. Arexs. I do not want you to be immodest. 

Mr. GoBERMAX-^. I will be glad to tell what I consider the truth, even 
about myself. I feel that I am a hard-working, professional musician 
who works very hard at his profession and does it to the best of his 
ability. That is all I can say. 

Mr. Arex^s. Do you work hard, or have you worked hard, at any 
other enterprises besides your profession ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. GoBERMAX. Would you mind beino; a little 

Mr. Arexs. Have you lent your prestige and your name to vari- 
ous enterprises under the auspices of the Communist Party? 



844 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. GoBERMAX. I must decline to answer that question under the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. 1 should like to display to you now, if you please, sir, 
a thermofax reproduction of a leaflet concerning a theater rally to 
secure clemency for the Rosenbergs, purportedly sponsored by the 
National Connnittee To Secure Justice in the Rosenberg Case and an 
advertisement in the Daily "Worker of November 18, 1952. 

Your name appears on this as a sponsor, and as one among several 
who are calling upon the Supreme Court to say "No" on the matter 
of the conviction of the Rosenbergs. 

Kindly look at these thermofax reproductions and see if you can 
help this committee by verifying the authenticitj' of your identifica- 
tion with that enterprise. 

(Documents handed to the witness.) 

( The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. GoBERMAN. I must decline to answer that question under the 
first and fifth amendments. 

(Documents marked "Goberman Exhibit No. 1," and retained in 
committee files. ) 

Mr. Arens. I have a photostatic reproduction of an article from 
the New York Times of August 8, 1955, in which it sets forth that 
a number of people, consisting mainly, according to the article, of 
scholars, people of public prominence, including artists, musicians, 
and the like, addressed an open letter to the President of the United 
States, urging him to intervene in the trial of the numerous Commu- 
nists who wei-e then being tried under the Smith Act. This article 
lists tlie names of a number of persons who signed this open letter, 
including one Max Goberman. 

Kindly look at that article and see if you can help this committee 
by verifying the authenticity of the information set forth therein. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Goberman. I must refuse to answer that ([uestion, too, for the 
same reason. 

(Document marked "Goberman Exhibit No. 2," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. I have two more on a related issue that I wanted to 
invite to your attention. One is an article from the Daily People's 
World of "August 10, 1955— "73 Notables I'rge Review of Smith Act 
Program'' — in which, according to this article, 73 leaders in American 
intellectual life, including people of prominence, urge the Eisenhower 
administration to take a new look at the so-called Smith Act program, 
by which, according to the article, people are being put in jail for their 
])olitical thoughts. This article contains the name, among others, of 
Max Goberman as one of the prominent people, M'ho is urging this 
course of action. 

Kindly look at this article and tell this conunittee while you are 
under oath, whether you consciously loaned your name and your 
prestige to that enterprise, 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Goberman. May I also decline to answer that for the same 
reason ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 845 

(Document marked "Goberman Exhibit No. o," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. I have still another one here from the Daily Worker of 
1954 (ISIarch 31) in which a number of prominent people — according 
to the article, artists, ministers, scientists — signed a public declara- 
tion proposing that — 

teachers, lawyers, doctors, writers, artists, and other professions, should be 
free to practice their profession without discrimination because of their political 
beliefs or associations, whether they be Republican, Democrat, Socialist, or 
Communist — 

Kindly look at this article and tell this committee while you are 
under oath, please, sir, whether or not you consciously lent your name 
and your prestige and your standing as a conductor of music to this 
enterprise, because your name appears in the article. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. GoBERMAX. I must respectfully decline under the first and 
fifth. The same answer. 

(Document marked "Goberman Exhibit No. 4," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. I have here a thermofax reproduction of the letterhead 
of the National Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions, which 
is accompanied by a list of the board of directors of that organiza- 
tion, on which your name appears. 

I see also in connection with that a thermofax reproduction of a 
call to action to "Stop Thought Control — Stop War" [issued by "Arts, 
Sciences and Professions for May Day"], which calls upon people to 
join a May Day parade. One of tlie sponsors listed is a Max Gober- 
man. 

Will you kindly tell this committee while you are under oath 
whether or not you lent jour prestige and your standing and your 
reputation as a musician and as a conductor to this enterprise? 

(Documents handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gobermax. I must take the same position on this, sir. 

(Documents marked "Goberman Exhibit No. 5," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. I have a program of the Cultural and Scientific Con- 
ference for AVorld Peace, held at the Waldorf Astoria Plotel (March 
25, 26, and 27, 1949) ; and a number of people issue this call, includ- 
ing Max Goberman. 

Tell this committee while you are under oath, please, sir, whether 
or not you are truly and accurately identified there, and whether or 
not you lent your prestige, your name, and your reputation as a con- 
ductor to that enterprise. 

(Docimient handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Gobermax'. I must decline for the same reasons. 

(Document marked "Goberman Exhibit No. 6," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. Have 3^ou been engaged in any business enterprise, other 
than the conducting or your musical work, along the line say, of 
obtainmg a license for broadcasting with any organization? Do you 
have a recollection of that ? 



846 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. GoBERMAN. Would you mind repeating that question? 

Mr. Arens. Perhaps I can help you. I have here a thermofax 
reproduction of a letterhead and accompanying documents describing 
a group of progressive citizens who have incorporated a People's 
Radio Foundation, and who were seeking to procure from the Federal 
Communications Commission in Washington a license to operate a 
People's Radio Foundation here in New York City. This enterprise, 
according to these documents, contains the names of a number of 
people, prominent in the musical field, who are soliciting this license, 
including Max Goberman, who is listed here as one of the stockholders 
of this enterprise. 

Please look at this document, sir, and tell this connnittee, while 
you are under oath, whether or not you lent your name and your 
prestige and your standing as a conductor to that enterprise. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Goberman. I must refuse to answer that for the same reasons, 
the first and the fifth amendments. 

(Document previously designated "Winter Exhibit No. !'■ retained 
in committee files) . 

Mr, Arens. I have a thermofax reproduction of a leaflet concern- 
ing an "American People's Meeting" (April 5, 1941), issued by 
"Sponsors of American Peace Mobilization,"' in which a number of 
people are called upon to go to Washington, D. C, and organize this 
program of peace. There are about nine people, so I see, listed on 
this document as sponsors of this enterprise, including Max Goberman. 

Kindly look at this document and tell this committee, while you are 
under oath, whether or not you knowingly and consciously lent your 
name and your prestige to that enterprise. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. While he is doing so, ]Mr. Chairman, may I invite the 
attention of the committee to the numerous citations of this American 
Peace Mobilization enterprise as contained in the Guide to Subver- 
sive Organizations and Publications. 

Mr. Doyle. What was the name of that ? 

Mr. Arens. American Peace ]\Iobilization. 

Mr. Goberman. I must refuse to answer for the same reason. 

(Document marked "Goberman Exhibit No. 7," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. I have another document, the Communist Daily Work- 
er of June 8, 1949, which bears an article setting forth activities of 
the Civil Rights Congress of New York, particularly a call for a 
"Conference on Civil and Human Rights" (June 25), all caused, 
according to the article, by the imprisonment of three Communist 
leaders. The call to this conference on human rights is sponsored by 
a number of people, professional people, including Max Goberman, 
conductor. 

Please tell this committee while you are under oath, sir, as you note 
that exhibit, whether or not you lent your prestige and your standing, 
your influence and your name to that enterprise. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 847 

Mr. Arens. I have accompanyiiifj that document a pamphlet, "In 
Defense of Human Kights," issued by the Committee To Defend the 
Victims of the Connnittee on Un-American Activities, in which a peti- 
tion is submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights 
protesting the hearings by the Committee on Un-American Activities 
of a number of people. 

Mr. Doyle. What vear is that ? 

Mr. Arens. 1950. 

This enterprise has as one of the sponsors. Max Goberman. Look 
at this exhibit, along with the one presently in your hand, if you 
please, sir, and tell this committee whether or not you lent your name, 
your prestige, and your influence to that enterprise. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. GoBERMAX. I nnist respectfully decline for tlie same reasons. 

(Documents marked "Goberman Exhibit Xo. 8," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. I have another document, sponsored by the organiza- 
tion, the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, in which a 
nmnber of people urge that there be a break with Franco Spain, 
and urge readers to write to the United States Congress in behalf 
of this enterprise. One of the supporters listed here of this enter- 
prise is Max Goberman. 

Please look at that document, wliile you are under oath, and tell 
this committee whether or not you lent your prestige, your name, and 
your influence as a conductor in this area to that enterprise. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred witli his counsel.) 

Mr. Goberman. I must respectfully decline for the same reason. 

(Document marked ''Goberman Exhibit No. 9," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Aeexs. Do you know a person by the name of Jesse Solomon? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

IVIr. Goberman. I must decliiie to answer that question. 

Mr. Arexs. Jesse Solomon testified before this committee that, 
while he was a member of the Communist Party, he knew you as a 
Communist. Was lie lying or was he telling the truth ? 

Mr. Goberman. I must refuse to answer that question for the same 
reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Are vou at this moment a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Goberman. I refuse to answer that question for the same rea- 
sons. 

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions, Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I wish to make the same observation concerning you, 
Mr. Goberman, that I have made several times during these hearings. 
I do not understand how any patriotic American citizen, since April 
or May 1945, can stay in a position where lie finds it necessary to come 
in before this committee, or any similar study group or investio-ative 
group, and claim tlie amendnients as to present Communist Partv 
membership. I just do not understand how in the world men these 



848 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

days, claiming to be patriotic American citizens, can do that. I 
can nnderstand liow yon can claim the privilege in good faith in 
back liistory, bnt liow in the \vorld yon can stay so close to the Com- 
mnnist pliilosophy that yon find it necessary to come in and claim the 
privilege as to present Commnnist Party membership or discipline, 
I do not nnderstand. 

(The witness conferred with his connsel.) 

Mr. Doyle. Connsel called the attention of the committee to the 
American Peace Mobilization, of which yon were one of the sponsors. 
He called yonr attention to the record of the iVmerican Peace Mobili- 
zation in this pamphlet that we have published. It has been brought 
up to date as of January 2, 1957. Concerning the peace-mobilization 
activity which you sponsored, apparently, at Washington, here is 
what is said about it in this Government pamphlet, sir. 

The American Peace Mobilization picketed tlie White House against lend- 
lease and the defense program. 

That was what you sponsored, according to this printed record. That 
is from a report by the Internal Security Subcommittee, United 
States Congress. It is found on piige 14. 

Mr. GoBEKMAN. May I see that, sir? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes, indeed. I call your attention to the other three 
citations. 

Will you hand this to the witness to see Avliat mess lie is in? 

(Tlie documejit was handed to the witness.) 

Mr. Doyle. I did not read the other three citations about your 
activities. You read it. 

Mr. GoBER3[AN. What page is that on ? 

Mr. Doyle. Page 14. Look at item 4 under American Peace Mo- 
bilization. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Doyle. Do you see it there. Witness ? 

J\Ir. GoBERMAN. I believe that my stand here today has not ad- 
mitted any facts or inferences of this kind, and I am deliberately 
avoiding any inferences of any kind. I am trying to avoid any in- 
ferences. For example, I know, Mr. Doyle, tliat you seem to draw a 
conclusion that I was under some kind of discipline as of this 
moment. 

Mr. Doyle. T have not drawn any conclusions or inferences, except- 
ing, sir, that I have drawn this conclusion in your case — which I 
tried to state frankly, as an American (\:)ngressman — that I did not 
iindei'stand any man wlio chiinis to be a i)atriotic American citizen 
as of tliis date, and to have divorced himself from the Comnumist 
garbage pail, if he ever was in it. I do not understand how any 
such person claiming to now stand for the American free enterprise 
competitive system in its tussle with the Communist ideology, can 
come before this committee and feel that it is cricket and helpful to 
his Government to still be so close to the Communist conspiracy that 
he has to plead the amendment as of membership today in the party, 
or under discipline. I do not charge you, 3'ou see; I am just saj^ing 
to you frankly, as one American to the other. Then I am saying I 
am drawing no inference about you, exce]3ting that the record shows 
that you were a sponsor of the American Peace Mobilization. There- 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 849 

fore I draw tlie infeveiife tliat you, being- an hitelli<>-ent American citi- 
zen, apparently well educated, must have known when you sponsored 
the American Peace Mobilization. 

Mr. GoBERMAN. That is the inference you make, Mr. Doyle. I would 
rather not discuss that with j'ou, if you don't mind. But I would like 
to point out that my use of the fifth amendment, and, as I understand, 
the fifth amendment carries with it no coimotations of any kind 

Mr. DoYi.E. That is right ; I draw no inferences. 

Mr. GoBER^viAx. Therefore, I cannot see how any discussion of this 
can be used to draw an}' inferences whatsoever. 

Mr. Arexs. You know that two men have identified you under 
oath, one of whom did it as he looked you in the eye this morning, as 
a member of the Communist Part3^ You know that, do you not, that 
you have been identified twice, by witnesses under oath, as a 
Communist ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. GoBERMAx. I believe my position here has been proper and re- 
spectful. I would respectfully ask the committee if they have no more 
questions to ask me that I be excused. 

Mr. Doyle. JNIay I suggest this to the witness? I am drawing- 
no inferences, excepting that I am drawing the conclusion that 
you were charged with notice, whenever you sponsored the American 
Peace Mobilization, that it stood against our lend-lease and defense 
program. I charge you with that responsibility. If you now are 
opposed to the Communist Party philosophy in tliis Nation, why do 
you not come out publicly and say so? You do not need to say it here, 
but say it over your own signature within 24 hours after y^ou leave 
here. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Doyle. That is what I invite you to do. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions, Mr. Frazier? 

Mr. Fr^^zier. No questions. 

]\lr. ^Moulder. An}- questions, Mr. jVIcIntosh? 

Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions. 

jVIr. Moulder. What was the name of the witness who preceded this 
witness ? 

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Seymour Levittan. 

Mr. !Mouldj:r. I have one question to ask you, Witness. You will 
recall the testimony of the witness who preceded you, Mr. Levittan, 
as 3^ou were in the courtroom, concerning his knowledge of persons 
who were members of the Communist Party approximately 17 years 
ago. His testimony, of course, does not cover or reveal any knowledge 
of any Communist activities on the part of any persons since that 
period of time. 

He saicl that he knew you as a member of the Communist Party, 
or attending Communist Party meetings, during that period of time. 
Counsel asked you the question a while ago as to wiiether he was 
telling the truth or was not telling the truth, and you refused to an- 
swer the question, but claimed the privilege under the fifth amend- 
ment. 

The question which I wish to propound is this : In his testimony, 
he said, according to his knowledge and information, he knew of no 
subversive, un-American activities on the part of any person he had 



850 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

named. Would yovi care to comment on that, or deny or affirm i,hat 
statement, that testimony on the part of that witness? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. GoBERMAN. I would prefer not to comment on it, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. You are excused as a witness. 

The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes. 

(Present at the taking of the recess: Representatives Morgan M. 
Moulder, Clyde Doyle, James B. Frazier, Jr., and Robert J. 
Mcintosh.) 

(Brief recess.) 

(Reconvening after the taking of the recess, the following members 
were present: Representatives Morgan M. Moulder, Clyde Doyle, 
James B. Frazier, Jr., and Robert J. Mcintosh.) 

Mr. Moulder (presiding). The committee will be in order. 

Call your next witness, please. 

Mr. Arens. June Rotenberg. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear the testimony which you are 
about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JUNE ROTENBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
LEONARD B. BOUDIN 

Mr, Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Miss Rotenberg. June Rotenberg, 448 Central Park West, New 
York. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena 
which was served upon joii by the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities ? 

Miss Rotenberg. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Miss Rotenberg. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. BouDiN. Leonard B. i3oudin, 25 Broad Street, New York 4. 

Mr. Frazier. What is that middle initial ? 

Mr. BouDiN. B. I am very appreciative you have asked, because 
it has been misstated in the press several times. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Frazier. 

Mr. Arens. Is your name Miss or Mrs. Rotenberg? 

Miss Rotenberg. My name is Miss Rotenberg. 

Mr. Arens. Is that a stage name or former name? Have you 
been known by any name, other than the name June Rotenberg ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. Mr. Chairman, I should appreciate a statement 
by this committee as to the purposes of the present investigation. 

Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question ? 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is ordered and directed to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Is that the only name under which you have been 
known ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer that for the following rea- 
sons : On the basis of the entire Bill of Rights 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 851 

Mr, Arens. Are you reading from a prepared statement? 

Miss RoTENBERG. Tliese are my personal notes, Mr. Arens. 

On the basis of the entire Bill of Rights and upon the following 
specific grounds: On the basis of the first amendment, which guar- 
antees freedom of speech and of the press and of assembly and asso- 
ciation and of petition ; on the basis of the fourth amendment which 
guarantees people against unreasonable searches and seizures; on 
the basis of the fifth amendment, which prohibits quasi-criminal pro- 
ceedings of this kind in the absence of a grand jury indictment, which 
protects one against being compelled in any criminal case from being 
a witness against himself, which protects one of being deprived of 
life, liberty, or property without due process of law; on the basis 
of the sixth amendment which guarantees one a trial by an impartial 
jury and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation, 
and to be confronted with the witnesses against him and to have the 
assistance of counsel for his or her defense. 

Mr. Arens. Who wrote that statement, please '? 

Mr. BouDiN. The witness has not finished the answer. 

Miss Rotenberg. On the basis of the eighth amendment, forbidding 
cruel and unusual punishments; on the basis of the ninth and tenth 
amendments, which provide, respectively, the ninth, enumeration in 
the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or 
disparage others retained by the people, and the tenth amendment, 
the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor 
prohibited by it to the States are reserved to the States respectively 
or to the people ; also, on the ground that there is no rational connec- 
tion between national security and one's work as a musician; also on 
the ground that there is no legislative purpose to this investigation ; 
also upon the gi'ound that the committee does not have jurisdiction 
to make this investigation ; and also upon the ground that the question 
is not pertinent to any subject legitimately under inquiry here. 

For all of these reasons, I object to the interrogation by the com- 
mittee and decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Who wrote that statement you just read? 

Miss Rotenberg. I wrote this statement. These are my own per- 
sonal notes. 

Mr. Arens. AVho told you what to say in the statement ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I consulted with my counsel. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. I was born in Philadelphia, Pa. 

Mr. Arens. And give us a word, if you please, about your education. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel. ) 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer that for the reasons previously 
given. 

Mr. Arens. If you told this committee where you were educated, 
would you be giving information that might be used against you in a 
criminal proceeding ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. I might. 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I might. 

Mr. Aeens. Where are you employed ? 

91198 — 57— pt. 2 7 



852 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss KoTEXBERG. I don't w^ant to answer that for the same reasons 
previously given. 

Mr. Arens. If you told this committee where you were employed, 
would you be giving information which might be used against you in 
a criminal proceeding? 

Miss RoTENBERG. I might. 

Mr. Arens. What is your occupation ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss EoTENBERG. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a musician ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Moulder. Of course, the witness has in her statement a refer- 
ence to her practice as a musician. 

Mr. BouDiN. Not to hers, Mr. Chairman. I read the wording of it, 
because I heard it very carefully. 

Mr. Moulder. Very well. Proceed. 

Mr. Arens. Are you this minute a Communist ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I am not a Communist. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a Communist ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answ-er for the same reasons previously 
given. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist any time during the period in 
which you have been served wdth a subpena to appear before this 
committee? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. Same answer. 

Mr. Arens. Same answer? 

Miss Rotenberg. As previously given. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist any time in the course of the 
last month ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer that for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist any time in the course of the 
last week ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist yesterday ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer that for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I don't understand. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. I don't understand it. What do you mean? 

Mr. Arens. You don't understand what that means? 

Miss Rotenberg. No. 

]Mr. Arens. Did you resign technical membership in the Commu- 
nist Party so that you could appear before this committee and state 
while you are under oath that you were not now a Communist? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. Would you please explain that, Mr. Arens? I 
don't understand. 

Mr. Arens. Did you resign technical membership in the Com- 
munist Party so that you could appear before this committee today 
and deny, while 3'ou are under oath, present membership in the Com- 
munist Party? 



COIVUMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 853 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss IloTENBERG. The same privilege. I am sorry. I don't under- 
stand. 

Mr. Arens. I will explain it. We want you to understand it. You 
have told on this record that you are not now a member of the Com- 
munist Party. You have invoked the privilege of the fifth amend- 
ment Avith reference to whether or not you were a member of the Com- 
munist Party yesterday. I now ask you : Did you resign membership 
in the Communist Party so that you could appear before this com- 
mittee and testify under oath that you were not presently a member of 
the Connnunist Party '• Did you do tliat ? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss RoTENBERG. I decline to answer for the reasons previously 
given. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Leonard Cherlin ? 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer for the same reason. 

Mr. Arexs. Leonard Cherlin took an oath before this committee 
2 or 3 days ago; and, while he was under oath, he said that, when he 
was a member of the Communist Party, he knew you as a Conununist. 
AVas Mr. Cherlin lying to this committee or was he telling the truth ? 

(Representative Morgan M. Moulder left the hearing room at this 
point.) 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer that for the same reason. 

Mr. Arexs. You say that you are not today a member of the Com- 
munist Party. What is your position on communism? Are you for 
it or against it? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotexberg. I decline to answer that for the same reasons. 

Mr. xIrens. Do you feel that if you truthfully told this committee 
now what your position is on communism, you would be supplying 
information which might be used against you in a criminal pro- 
ceeding? 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Rotenberg. I decline to answer for the same reasons previously 
given. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be 
ordered and directed to answer that last question. 

Mr. DoYT.E (presiding). I direct you to answer that question. We 
cannot acce]3t your answer as sufficient. 

(The witness conferred with her counsel.) 

Miss Roi-EXBERG. Yes : 1 might be, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter- 
rogation of this witness. 

Afr. Doyle. Have you any questions, Mr. Frazier? 

Mr. Frazier. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Mcintosh % 

Mr. McIxTosH. I have no questions. 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. Thank you. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Simeon Jurist? 

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the Avhole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

iVIr. Jurist. I do. 



854 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

TESTIMONY OF SIMEON JURIST, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
LEONARD B. BOUDIN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Jurist. My name is Simeon Jurist. I live at 605 AYest 111th 
street, Manhattan. My occupation is librarian, music librarian. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Jurist, in response to a 
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un- 
American Activities ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel? 

Mr, Jurist. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself? 

Mr. BouDiN. Surely. I^onard B. Boudin, 25 Broad Street, New 
York 4. 

Mr. Arens. AVliere are you employed, Mr. Jurist? 

Mr. Jurist. I work for the Lee's Music Corp. 

Mr. Arens. Lee's Music Corp. ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. In New York City ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. "\Aniere and when were you born ? 

Mr. Jurist. I was born December 5, 1887. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you born? 

Mr. Jurist. In Russia. 

Mr. Arens. TNHien did you come to the United States ? 

Mr. Jurist. In May 1913. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes; I am. 

Mr. Arens. Were you naturalized? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. When and where were you naturalized ? 

Mr. Jurist. 1926. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mr. Jurist. At the Borough of the Bronx. That is the court. 

Mr. Arens. What is that paper from which you are reading? 

Mr. Jurist. They are some notes which I made ; I prepared myself. 

Mr. x\rens. Are you now, this moment, a Communist ? 

Mr. Jurist. I respectfully submit this question infringes upon my 
constitutional 

Mr. Arens. Are you reading that from your notes ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes ; I am reading it, because I am nervous, naturally — 
because this question infringes upon my constitutional rights. I 
therefore decline to answer and invoke my privileges under the first 
and fifth amendments of the Constitution. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Jesse Solomon? 

Mr. Jurist. No, sir. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Jurist. I have no idea. 

Mr. Arens. You have no idea who he is ? 

Mr. Jurist. I have no idea. 

Mr. AREfNS. How long have you been employed where you presently 
work? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 855 

Mr. Jurist. Three years in June. 

Mr. Arens. You are a librarian, a music librarian ? 

Mr. Jurist. That is right. We run a rental library of symphonic 
music. 

Mr. Arens. Records ? 

Mr. Jurist. No. Symphonic music. 

Mr. Arens. You i^nt them to orchestras and musicians? 

Mr. Jurist. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know Sidney Feldman ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds 
as stated before. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know David Freed ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds 
as stated before. 

Mr. Arens. George Koukly ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer again on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to the 
time that you engaged in this job as a music librarian? 

Mr. Jurist. I worked for the United Nations, and then I worked 
for the Adjutant General's Office. 

Mr. Arens. About this United Nations employment, sir; in what 
capacity did you work for the United Nations ? 

Mr. Jurist. Translator. 

Mr. Arens. Who engaged you ? 

Mr. Jurist. I was engaged after passing examinations. There was 
a committee that examined all the aspirants. 

Mr. Arens. And when did you work for the United Nations ? 

Mr. Jurist. During the 1947 general session of the assembly. 

Mr. Arens. That was out on the coast ; San Francisco ? 

Mr. Jurist. No ; that was in 1945. The 1947 session of the General 
Assembly. 

Mr. Arens. And that was the only time you worked for the United 
Nations? 

Mr, Jurist. I worked in Mexico City with the International Tele- 
communications Union as a translator. 

Mr. Arens. Was that part of the United Nations ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes. It is a special agency of the United Nations. 

Mr. Arens. Let us start over again, if you please, sir? When were 
you first employed by the United Nations ? 

Mr. Jurist. In 1947. 

Mr. Arens. Who employed you? Who was your superior? 

Mr. Jurist. Well, that was the Russian translation section. Mr. 
Barsky was in charge of that department. 

Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Barsky a Russian? 

Mr. Jurist. He was Russian born. 

Mr. Arens. Was he an American citizen ? 

Mr. Jurist. He is an American citizen ; naturalized. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know him prior to the time that you were 
employed? 

Mr. Jurist. No. Never knew him. I never knew anyone. I just 
applied, and I passed the examination, which was rather 

Mr. Arens. As a prerequisite to obtaining this job, did you have to 
give any kind of assurance that you were not then a member of a con- 



856 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

spiratorial apparatus to overthrow this Government by force and 
violence ? 

Mr, Jurist. Nobody asked anything at that time. I passed the 
examination and got the job. 

Mr. Arens. And you were a translator during the session in New 
York ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Jurist. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat was the next function you had with the United 
Nations? 

Mr. Jurist. The next job was the International Telecommunica- 
tions Union. 

Mr. Arens. Who secured that job for you? 

Mr. Jurist. I passed the examination. There were 2 days of exami- 
nations, 2 different examples each day, and I passed it successfully and 
was accepted. 

Mr. Arens. That was a subsidiary organization of the United Na- 
tions? 

Mr. Jurist. That is a specialized agency. 

Mr. Arens. A^Hiere did you work there? 

Ml-. Jurist. In Mexico City. 

Mr. Arens. What did you do in Mexico City? 

Mr. Jurist. Translating Russian to English and English to Rus- 
sian. Technical translation. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were working for the 
United Nations? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question on the grounds stated 
before. 

Mr. Arens. What caused you to leave the United Nations? 

Mr. Jurist. I was employed only temporarily for the duration of 
the session of the General Assembly, 

Mr. Arens. Were you in contact, while you were employed at the 
United Nations as a citizen of the United States, with any Russian 
agent, Communist agent? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question on the same grounds 
as stated before. 

Mr. BouDiN. Excuse me a moment, Mr. Arens. Mr. Doyle, can't 
we take judicial notice of the fact that there are Russian nationals 
employed by the United Nations? 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, you know, and have been told, that your sole 
and exclusive right is to advise your clients. You are in violation of 
the rules of the committee, as you frequently are. 

Mr. DoyIjE. We are not following strict rules of evidence, as the 
counsel knows. We are not a court. 

Mr. BouDiN. Very well. I do, too. 

Mr. JiTRisT. Would you clarify, please, this question? 

Mr. Arens. The Russian nationals who employed you. 

Mr. BouDiN. Mr. Arens 

Mr. Arens. Your sole and exclusive right is to advise your clients. 

Mr. BouDiN. Kindly tell the counsel not to address me. I will take 
instructions from the chairman and not the counsel. Will you direct 
the director not to talk to me? 

Mr. Arens. We believe in free speech here. 



COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 857 

Mr. Doyle. I wUl make it two ways. Address only your clients, 
because, as you know, the rules of the committee do not permit us time 
to have you able lawyers take our time unnecessarily. We regret it is 
a necessary rule. 

Mr. BoTJDiN. Just a moment. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Boudin, you are not running this hearing. You 
may think you are, but you are not. Now, Mr. Witness, did you work 
for the Secretariat of the United Nations? 

Mr. Jurist. Exactly. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell this committee now the names of any per- 
sons who are United States citizens, working at the United Nations, 
who, to your certain knowledge, are, or have been, members of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Jurist. I am sorry, I have to decline this question on the 
grounds stated before. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know the names of such persons ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question on the grounds stated 
before. 

Mr. Arens. Did you, during the course of the time you were em- 
ployed by the Secretariat of the United Nations, transmit any infor- 
mation to a person not authorized by law to receive the same ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question. If you want clari- 
fication, there was nothing in the hands of the translators of any value 
to anybody, because everything was printed and translated. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in contact, when you were working for the 
United Nations, with representatives in tlie United Nations of any of 
the Iron Curtain countries? 

Mr. Jurist. I am soriy to say I didn't know anybody there. 

Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline when you 
were working in the United Nations? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question. 

Mr. Arens. What was your next occupation after you w^ere dis- 
associated, or disassociated yourself, from the United Nations? 

Mr. Jurist. I was working as a free-lance musician, transcribing 
music, transposing. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently on any eligible list of the Secretariat 
of the United Nations? 

Mr. Jurist. No, I am past employment age. I am 70. 

Mr. Arens. Do you now know the names, Mr. Jurist, of Commu- 
nists, American-citizen Communists, employed by the United Nations ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question. 

Mr. Arens. You know, of course, that you are obtaining now, and 
now have, the protection of the American flag, as a citizen of the 
United States ; do you not ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes, and I stand on my rights as a citizen. 

Mr. Arens. Don't you want to serve this country of yours by telling 
us the names of any persons whom you may know who are presently 
employed by tlie Secretariat of the United Nations as citizens of the 
United States who are members of a conspiratorial apparatus designed 
to overthrow this Government? 

Mr. Jurist. I am sorry to invoke the first and fifth amendments. 
I cannot answer this question. 

Mr. Arens. Do you now belong to an organization that is dedicated 
to the destruction of the Constitution of the United States? 



858 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Jurist. I certainly do not. 

Mr. Arens. Do you belong to the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Jurist. I certainly don't belong. 

Mr. Arens. You do not belong ? 

Mr. Jurist. I certainly don't. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever belonged ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question. 

Mr. Arens. Did you belong to the Communist Party yesterday? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question. 

Mr. Arens. Did you i-esign from the Communist Party yesterday 
solely so that you could take an oath today and say you do not belong 
to the Communist Party ? 

Mr, Jurist. I decline to answer this question on the same grounds 
as stated before. 

Mr. Arens. Continue, if you please, on the chronology of your 
employments. You told us that you worked for the United Nations 
and that employment was terminated. What year was that? 

Mr. Jurist. The first session I started sometime in August, and 
the second ended sometime in January of the following year, 1948. 

Mr. Arens. Wliat did you begin to do, then, in 1948 ? 

Mr. Jurist. I was back in my profession, music. 

Mr. Arens. And where did you work? 

Mr. Jurist. I was free-lancing. 

Mr. Arens. AYliat do you mean by free-lancing? 

Mr. Jurist. I was making transcriptions, transpositions, for dif- 
ferent orchestras. 

Mr. Arens. Do you play a musical instrument ? 

Mr. Jurist. No ; I am not an instrumentalist. I am a copyist. 

Mr. ArenS. You copy music? 

Mr. Jurist. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. You prepare orchestrations? 

Mr. Jurist. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. For whom do you work in that capacity? 

Mr. Jurist. For so many people, but mostly for the Famous Studios 
connected with the Paramount Theater. 

Mr. Arens. The Paramount Theater ? 

Mr. Jurist. The Paramount Theater of New York. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you engaged in that enterprise ? 

Mr, Jurist. On and off for several years, until I got this job which 
I hold at the present time. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Israel Amter ? 

Mr. Jurist. I heard of the name, but I don't know him. 

Mr. Arens. You signed a nominating petition for his nomination 
for councilman of New York City ; did you not ? 

Mr. Jurist. Maybe I did, but I do not have to know him. There 
were all kinds of petitions. 

Mr. Arens. You say maybe you did. Do you recall ? 

Mr. Jurist. Maybe I did. 

Mr. Arens. You said a moment ago there are all kinds of petitions 
that you signed. "VYliat are some of these petitions which you signed ? 

Mr. Jurist. I couldn't tell what they are. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you write Russian folksongs ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 859 

Mr. Jurist. No, I don't write Russian folksongs. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the audience 
be admonished that there be no demonstrations of approval or disap- 
proAal of anything that transpires in this proceeding. 

Mr. Doyle. You folks in the audience have been wonderfully help- 
ful in keeping the room quiet. I know you will continue to be so. 

Mr. x\rens. I lay before you now the Communist Daily Worker of 
New York, April '2, 19.37, and call your attention to the article "What's 
On — Spring Dance. Graduation Prom. Section 18 C. P. Training 
School. Dance Orchestra. S. Jurist, Russian Folksongs * * *" 

Do you recall that ? It was years ago, back in 1937 — the gradua- 
tion of the Comnnmist Party Training School class J' 

(Document was handed to the witness.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question, and I again invoke 
my first and fifth amendments. 

(Document marked "Jurist Exhibit No. 1,'' and retained in com- 
mittee files.) 

Mr. Arexs. I would like to read you a little testimony here, given 
under oath, about shipment of atomic material to the Soviet Union 
during World War II. This testimony is by a man by the name of 
Ma j . George Racey Jordan. Do you know him ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of George Racey 
Jordan ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question, and I again invoke 
the firet and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Arens. He was testifying before this committee under oath 
back in 1950. I would like to read you a little of his testimony and 
see if it might refresh your recollection. Perhaps you might be able 
to give this committee some information that would serve the cause 
of the country under whose flag you have protection. 

Q. Who was Uie interpreter? 

A. David Stone. 

Q. David Stone? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know where he lives? 

A. No. He was one of several Interpreters. The Russians hired an interpreter 
by the name of Jurist, .J-u-r-i-s-t, and he was such an excellent interpreter that 
we graduually used the Russian interpreter rather than the American inter- 
preter. His name was Simeon .lurist. We gradually had different employees 
who were hired for the purpose of assisting us with the Russians, stenographers 
and various jieople of Russian extraction who could s{>eak and type in Russian. 
Do you wish their names? 

Q. No ; unless some of those persons went with you to Gi'eat Falls. If they 
did. I would like to have their names. 

A. The only one who went to Great Falls was Mr. Jurist, Simeon Jurist. 

Q. He was a Russian national? 

A. He is an American, I believe, but the Russians succeeded in hiring him 
before we did. 

Were you hired by the Russians during World War II to do inter- 
preting ? 

Mr. BouDiN. Could we see that before the witness answere? 

Mr. Arens. Just answer, first of all. 

Mr. Jurist. Let me see it, if you don't mind. 

(Document handed to the witness.) 



860 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

(The witness conferred with his counseL) 

Mr. Jurist. On advice of my counsel, I want to make clear the 
whole thing, because this is an involvement, and whatever you gentle- 
men believe or not, I am as loyal as any of you. But that is not the 
question. Major Jordan happened to be with the War Department, 
with the Air Force, I worked for the Russian Air Force, the pur- 
chasing commission. 

Mr. Arens. Wlien ? 

Mr. Jurist. 1942 and 1943. 

Mr. Arexs. Somehow you didn't seem to remember that when 
I w^as asking you a while ago about employment activities. Go right 
ahead now. 

Mr. Jurist. I told you — backward we were going — and I told you 
about my employment in the United Nations Secretariat. Now we 
go further back, and that was the time when I was employed by the 
Purchasing Commission of the Soviet Government. I was stationed 
in Newark 

Mr, Arens. '\^nien were you employed by the Purchasing Commis- 
sion of the Soviet Government? 

Mr. Jurist. 1942 and 1943. I don't remember. It is about a year 
and a half or close to 2 j^ears. 

Mr, Arens. That was during the war ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes, naturally. No other time. I was stationed — when 
President Eoosevelt authorized to send 200 planes by ship to Russia, 
I was permitted by the War Department to be stationed with the 
Russian commission at the Newark Airport, from where those ships 
were sent, those airships. And then the shipment of planes to Russia 
were conducted from a secret base, which was Fairbanks, Alaska; 
and I volunteered to go. Nobody wanted to go, but I wanted to work. 
And nobody knew my address. I couldn't correspond. ]\Iy letters 
were examined just the same as any private in the Army. 

Mr. Jordan worked at the Newark Airport, and then I never saw 
him until I went to Alaska. But I went to Great Falls. That was 
the place where all the planes used to come in. And from Great 
Falls — no, we went to Seattle, to Seattle, Wash, From Seattle we 
flew to Alaska. I never stopped in Great Falls. On my way back, 
on my f urlougli, I stopped there. 

Mr. Arens. Were you in military uniform at that time? 

Mr. Jurist. No. 

Mr. Arens. You were a civilian employee? 

Mr, Jurist, Yes. 

Mr, Arens. Who paid you? 

Mr, Jurist. I was paid Ijy the people who engaged me, the Russian 
Purchasing Commission. 

Mr. Arens. How did you happen to get that job at the Russian 
Purchasing Commission ? 

Mr. Jurist. Simple, because they needed to have people who could 
speak Russian and English, and I applied for the job, and I happened 
to have some technical background, and I got the job. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party while 
you were working for the Russian Purchasing Commission? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question on the gi-ounds stated 
before. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 861 

Mr. Akexs. "Were you a member of the Communist Part}- wlieii you 
were naturalized as a citizen ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you been the chairman for Alaska of the Ameri- 
can Society for Eussian Relief, Inc. ? 

Mr. Jurist. Yes. 

Mr. Areks. Thank you. 

Mr. Jurist. They collected some money to be sent to the Russian 
relief, and it happened to be that Mrs. Roosevelt and very prominent 
people were workino- for that; but 1 collected more money for the 
American Red (^ross from the peo])le workiui*; tliere than I ever col- 
lected to be sent, money or tinners. 

Mr. Arexs. You said you were not now a member of the Com- 
munist Party, did you not? 

Mr. Ji'RiST. Definitely not. 

Mr. Arexs. But you wouldn't tell us about yesterday. "What is 
your present position on communism, since you are not now a member 
of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer tliis question on the ;L!:rounds j)re- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Arexs. Are you against Conununists, the Communist Party, 
now tliat you are not a member of the Communist Party, or ai'e you 
for them ? 

Mr. Jurist. I decline to answer this ({uestion on the o-romids 
stated before. 

Mr. Arexs. Are you part of the apparatus or not part of the 
apparatus? 

Air. Jurist. I decline to answer this (|nestion on the irrounds stated 
before. 

Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suo-gest that will coiiclude tlie staff in- 
terroixation of this witness. 

Mr. Doyle. If there are no questions of the witness from the com- 
mittee, vou are excused. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Deutsch, do you solemnly swear that you will tell 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 

Mr. Deutsch. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR DEUTSCH. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
SAMUEL NEUBURGER 

Afr. AiM'.xs. Kindly id(Mitify yourself by name, residence, and oc<'U- 
])ation. 

"Sir. Deutsch. Arthur Deuts'-li, 188-01 Keesville Avenue, Tfollis, 
X. Y. ; draftsman. 

Mr. Arex^s. Are you appearino- today in response to a subpena 
served upon you by the House Connnittee on Un-American Activi- 
ties ? 

Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 

Mr. Arexs. And you are represented l)v counsel? 

Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 

Mr. Arexs. Will counsel kindly identify himself? 

Mr. Xeuburger. Samuel Neuburaei-, 217 Broadway, New York, 
\. Y. 

Mr. Arexs. "Where and wlien were you born? 



862 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Deutsch. November 29, 1908, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ? 

Mr. Deutsch. 630 West 5th Avenue, Harrison & Abramowitz. 

Mr. Arens. What is the nature of that employment? 

Mr. Deutsch. Draftsman. 

Mr. Arens. Are you also a musical arranger ? 

Mr. Deutsoh. No ; I am not. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been engaged in musical arranging ? 

Mr. Deutsch. Never. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of Typographical Union, Local 6? 

Mr. Deutsch. I am not. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man b}^ the name of Leonard Cherlin? 

Mr. Deutsch. Leonard Cherlin? 

Mr. Arens. Yes. 

(Representative Morgan M. Moulder entered the hearing room at 
this point.) 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Deutsch. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Leonard Cherlin testified before this committee, a day 
or so ago, that while he was a member of the Communist Party, he 
knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the truth ? 

Mr. Deutsch. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Jesse Solomon ? 

Mr. Deutsch. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. He took an oath before this committee likewise and 
said he knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling 
the truth ? 

Mr. Deutsch. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist? 

Mr. Deutsch. I decline to answer. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live at 3981 48th Street, Queens? 

Mr. Deutsch. Never. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live in Queens ? 

Mr. Deutsch. Prior to my present address ; no. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live there at any time ? 

Mr. Deutsch. Never, at any time. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member of 802, the local ? 

Mr. Deutsch. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been in that organization ? 

Mr. Deutsch. 1929 or 1930. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever held an office or post, official post, in the 
organization ? 

Mr. Deutsch. Never. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of a Communist fraction 
within Local 802 ? 

Mr. Deutsch. I decline to answer on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. If there are no questions from the committee, you 
are excused as a witness. 

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Mr. 
Theodore Saidenberg. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 863 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. Yes. 

TESTIMONY OF THEODORE SAIDENBERG, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, SYLVAN H. ELIAS 

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Saidenberg. Theodore Saidenberg. I live at 109 West 11th 
Street, Manhattan. I am a musician. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Saidenberg, in response 
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee 
on Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, please identify yourself. 

Mr. Elias. I am Sylvan H. Elias, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. A\niere and when were you born, Mr. Saidenberg? 

Mr. Saidenberg. I was born in Baltimore, March 8, 1908. 

Mr. Arens. AVhere are you employed ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. I am a concert artist, a pianist, and I have been 
doing concertizing. 

Mr. Arens. Where have you been doing your concertizing? 

Mr. Saidenberg. In New York and in various parts of the United 
States. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Christlieb ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Saidenberg, in 1956, last year, the early part of 
the year, in April, Mr. Donald Christlieb testified before the Commit- 
tee on Un-American Activities that he had been a member of the 
Communist Party and that, while he was a member of the Com- 
munist Party, he knew you as a Communist. He said that meetings 
were held. Communist Party meetings were held, in your home. Was 
Mr. Christlieb lying or was he telling the truth ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Did you ever live in Beverly Hills ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. When did you live in Beverly Hills? 

Mr. Saidenberg. I lived in California from 1938 until the end of 
1953. I lived in Beverly Hills from 194:1, I believe, until 1952. 

Mr. Arens. Were you connected in any way with the Hollywood 
Community Radio Group out on the coast? 

(The w^itness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

Mr. Arens. What names have you used other than the name Theo- 
dore Saidenberg, pursuant to which you are appearing here today ? 



864 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN I^-IUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Saidenberg. To the best of my recollection, I have always used 
that name. 

Mr. Arexs. Have you ever used the name Ted Said ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arexs. Are you now a Communist I 

Mr. Saidenberg. I am not a member of the Communist Party now. 

Mr. Arens. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Comuiunist Party a vear 
ago? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a mein])er of tlie Comnuuiist Party 5 years 
ago ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 10 years 
ago? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party 12 years 
ago ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. Could you mention it by year, Counsel ? I am not 
sure of my aritlnnetic. 

(The witness conferred witli liis counsel. ) 

Mr. Arens. Well, were vou ;i membe)- of the Communist Party in 
1945? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party in 1944? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. 1943? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. 1940? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. 1939? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

]Mr. Arens. The testimony of Christlieb is to tlie effect that he 
attended Communist Party meetings in your home between 1941 and 
1946. Was he mistaken about that? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. I decline to answer that. Counsel, on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now opposed to communism? 

Mr. Saidenberg. Yes, very definitely, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Would you help this committee by telling us the names 
of any people known by you to have been members of the Communist 
Party who are presently active in the field of music, in which you are 
engaged ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. I decline to answer that, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Anita Short 
Metz? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. In 1V)43, were you a member of Branch O. Northwest 
Section of the Communist Party of Los Angeles? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 865 

(The ^Yitness conferred with his counseL) 

Mr. Saidenberg. I decline to answer that question, sir. 

Mr. Arens. ^Y\lo is Eleanor Saidenberg? 

Mr. Saidenberg. Eleanor Saidenberg? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. That is my wife, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Were yon a member of the Connnunist Party in 1944? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. Or any time during that i)eriod, that year, were you a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. Do you mean during any pai-t of the year 1944, 
Congressman ? 

Mr. Moulder. Yes. 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir; I w^as not. 

Mr. Arens. 1943 ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. I decline to answer that question on the grounds 
of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. I know. Witness, that you plead the amendment to the 
question of whether or not this person named by counsel w^as telling 
the truth when he said he attended Communist Party meetings in your 
home in California in the years 1941 to 194G. You just stated that 
you were not a member of the Comnuinist Party in 194r>. 

Mr. Saidenberg. Excuse me a minute. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. My understanding, at least, was that I pleaded the 
fifth amendment on 1943, Congressman. 

Mr. Doyle. I think you are correct. Judge Frazier just corrected 
me. You pleaded the amendment as to 1943 but not as to 1944. 

Mr. Saidenberg. That is correct. 

Mr. Doyle. This person, whom counsel referred to, testified under 
oath that he attended Connnunist Party meetings in your home be- 
tween 1941 and 1940. California is where I live. 

Is it possible that there were Communist Party meetings in your 
home in the year 1944, in California, which he attended ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Saidenberg. I am sorry, I must decline to answer that question, 
sir. 

Mr. Doyle. If you were not a member of the Communist Party in 
1944, at least you did not plead the amendment for membership in 1944 
and 1945 and 1946. You Avere not a member in 1945 ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir; I was not. 

Mr. Doyle. 1946 ? 

Mr. Saidenberg. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. I want to compliment you on being able to testify under 
oath that von were not a member in 1944, 1945, 1946, or any time 
since 1944.' That is all. 

Mr. Moulder. :Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. :Moulder. Mr. Mcintosh ? 

Mr. McIntosh. I have no questions. 



866 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Moulder. You are excused as a witness. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Arens. The next witness, Mr. Chairman, if you please, will be 
Gita Rosova. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which 
you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss RosovA. I do so solemnly swear. 

TESTIMONY OF GITA EOSOVA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
MILDRED EOTH 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself. 

Miss RosovA. Gita Rosova, 109 West 83d Street, New York City, 
music teacher. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today. Miss Rosova, in response 
to a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Miss RosovA. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Miss RosovA. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Miss Roth. Mildred Roth, 401 Broadway, New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed. Miss Rosova ? 

Miss Rosova. Metropolitan Music School. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you been so employed ? 

Miss Rosova. I wouldn't be able to be quite exact, I would bay 
approximately 13 years. 

Mr. Arens. And what do you teach ? 

Miss RosovA. Violin. 

Mr. Arens. How many students do you have ? 

Miss Rosova. At present I have a very small class at the Metropoli- 
tan School. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ? 

Miss Rosova. I decline to answer under my rights under the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a person bv the name of Leonard 
Cherlin? 

Miss Rosova. I decline for the same reasons. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Leonard Cherlin a day or so ago took an oath 
before this committee ; and while he was under oath, he testified that 
he had been a member of the Communist Party, and that while he 
was a member of the Communist Party he knew you to a certainty 
to be a Communist. Was Mr. Cherlin telling the truth or was he 
lying? 

(Representative James B. Frazier, Jr., left the hearing room at this 
point. ) 

Miss Rosova. I decline to answer under the same points stated. 

Mr. Arens. What was your employment immediately prior to the 
time that you assumed your post at the ]\Ietropolitan Music School? 

Miss Rosova. I was on the Federal music project. 

Mr. Arens. ^"Sniat was that ? 

Miss RosovA. As a violinist. 

Mr. Arens. Just give us a word of description. 



COMMUNISM m METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 867 

Miss KosovA. I played in the various orchestras of the Federal 
music project. 

Mr. Arens. ^V\mt was the Federal music project? Was that by 
the Federal Government ? 

Miss RosovA. It certainly was. 

Mr. Arens. Was that under WPA ? 

Miss RosovA. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born; or where were you 
born ? I will be considerate to a lady. 

Miss RosovA. I was born in Boston, Mass. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con- 
clude the staff interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. If tbere are no questions from the committee, the 
witness is excused. 

Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be 
John Imbergamo. 

Mr. Imbergamo. My lawyer is not here. He is supposed to be 
here this afternoon. He told me he called the committee to be here. 

Mr. Arens. You are eminently correct about that, sir. 

What time did he say ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. I have an appointment with him at 1 o'clock. He 
is supposed to be here at 1 : 30, I suppose. He is not here right now. 

Mr. Moulder. The connnittee will stand in recess at this point 
until 1 o'clock. 

(Whereupon at 12 : 37 p. m., a recess was taken until 1 p. m., tlie same 
day.) 

(Committee members present at time of recess. Representatives 
Moulder, Doyle, and Mcintosh.) 

(The committee reconvened at 1 : 05 p. m., wath the following 
members present: Messrs. Morgan M. Moulder, James B. Frazier, 
Jr., and Robert J. Mcintosh.) 

Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will be in order. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give 
before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and noth- 
ing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN IMBERGAMO, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

IBA GOLLOBIN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and 
occupation. 

Mr. Imbergamo. My name is John Imbergamo, 254 Highlawn Ave- 
nue, Brooklyn. 

(Representative Clyde Doyle entered the hearing room at this 
point. ) 

Mr. Imbergamo. My occupation is a musician. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Imbergamo, in response 
to a subpena which Avas served upon you by the House Committee 
on Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Yes. 

§1198— 57— pt. 2 8 



868 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself. 

Mr. GoLLOBiN. Ira Gollobin, 1441 Broadway, New York. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you born ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. August 26, 1890. 

Mr. Arens. Where, please, sir ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Italy. 

Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. 1913, at the end of 1913. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a naturalized citizen ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Where and when were you naturalized ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. February 9, 1920. 

Mr. Arens. Where? 

Mr. Imbergamo. In New York City. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Well, at the present time, I am not employed. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you last employed ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. I was last employed — — 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Imbergamo. I was employed as a messenger in a stock broker. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a musician ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Where have you engaged in your profession as a musi- 
cian ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Well, I have been in Baltimore Symphony. 

Mr. Arens. What instrument do you play ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Trumpet. 

Mr. Arens. When did you play witli tlie Baltimore Symphony? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Two years ago. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a' member of Local 802 here in New York? 

]\Ir. Imbergamo. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Leonard Cherlin? 
Leonard Cherlin, C-h-e-r-1-i-n. Do you know him ? 

( The witness conferred with his coimsel. ) 

Mr. Imbergamo. To my recollection, I don't remember him. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist, a member of the Communist 
Party today? 

Mr. Imbergamo. I tliink I decline this question under our rights of 
the amendments. 

Mr. Arens. Were you a candidate for the assembly here in New 
York City ? Did you run for the assembly in 1 954 ? 

Mr. Imbergaivio. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Under what party label did you run ? 
(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Imbergamo. American Labor Party. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you living at the time? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Same address. 

Mr.^ Arens. Wliat was that address ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. 254 Highlawn Avenue, 

Mr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you were running for the 
assembly ? 

Mr. Imbergamo. I am sorry, I have to decline this. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 869 

{The AYitness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Arens. The record might at this point reflect, if you please, Mr. 
Chairman, the citation of the American Labor Party in Manhattan 
and Brooklyn, which, according to the Special Committee on Un- 
American xVctivities, in 1944, had been captured by the Connnunist 
Party. 

The following is an excerpt from the Guide to Subversive Organiza- 
tions and Publications, revised and published as of January 2, 1957, by 
the Committee on Un-American Activities, United States House of 
Kepresentatives: 

American T^ahoii I'Mnv 

1. ••Fui- yi'jiis, Ihf Coiimiuuists Inive \mt forth the .ni'i'titt'^^t^ effoiis lo cuijture 
llie entire American Labor Party thronjiliout New York State. Tliey succeeded 
in capturing- the Manhattan and Brooklyn sections of the American Labor Party 
but outside of New York City they have been unable to win control." {Special 
Committee on Un-American Activities, House Report 1311 on the CIO Political 
Action Committee, March 29, W.'fJ/, p. 78.) 

2. "Communist dissimulation extends into the field of political parties form- 
ing political front organizations such as the * * * American Labor Party. The 
Communists are thus enabled to present their candidates for elective oflSce under 
other than a straight Communist label." (Internal Security Sudconwiittee of 
the Senate ■Judiciarij Committee, Handhoolc for Americans, 8. Doc. Ill, April 23, 
1.956, p. 91.) 

Mr. Arexs. You ran as a candidate from Brooklyn; did you not? 

Mr. Imbergamo. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con- 
clude the staif interrogation of this witness. 

Mr. Moulder. Are there any questions from members of the sub- 
committee? If not, the witness is excused. 

Before recessing the hearings, I should like to make a few observa- 
tions with respect to the evicTence which has been developed in the 
course of the last few days. 

In the tirst place, the testimony establishes that the Metropolitan 
Music School is controlled by persons identified as members of the 
Communist Party. Uncontradicted witnesses, under oath, have iden- 
tified the principal officials of this organization, and many of the 
faculty, as persons known to have been Communists. These several 
identifications have not been denied by the parties concerned when 
they were interrogated during the hearings. Moreover, numerous ex- 
hibits confirm tlie Communist connections of these people and the 
school which they operate. 

How serious is the situation which has been revealed to exist ? 

Here we have a Communist-controlled school, offering a haven for 
Communist instructors, who are regularly being brought in contact 
with substantial numbers of students whom they can directly or in- 
directly influence. Tliat they would try to influence the students to- 
ward communism, we do not doubt. The extent of such influence, no 
one but the principals involved can know. 

The hearings have produced testimony in which we see revealed the 
techniques emploj'ed by Communists to use music and art as weapons 
in the ideological battle of the godless slavery of communism against 
our Christian civilization. 

We have also seen how the prestige of talented artists can be used 
in furtherance of the programs of various Communist fronts. Com- 
munist employment practices have also been developed during these 



870 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

hearings. We have lieard how economic pressures are exerted by the 
Conimiuiists to obtain jobs and promotions for the comrades of the 
Communist Party. All of these facts ^Ye will carefully appraise in the 
course of the next several months, together with the facts developed 
in comparable hearings elsewhere. 

This appraisal will be chiefly for the purpose of considering whether 
or not legislation or amendments to existing law may be necessary 
in our constant struggle against the Communist conspiracy. 

I should like to thank all who have cooperated with the committee 
during these hearings, including the court oflicials, the United States 
marshals, the press, and others, who have made our stay pleasant and, 
we believe, beneficial for the protection of the security of our American 
way of life. 

The statement I have just read is the statement agreed upon by all 
members of the subcommittee. 

The subcommittee will stand adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 1:15 p. m., Friday, April 12, 1957, the subcom- 
mittee recessed, to reconvene, subject to the call of the Chair.) 

(iSIembers present at the taking of the recess: Messrs. Moulder, 
Doyle, Frazier, and Mcintosh.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNISM IN THE METROPOL 
ITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC., AND RELATED FIELDS- 
PART 2 



THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 7, 1957 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 
Committee on Un-American Activities, 

New York, N. Y. 
executive session ^ 

The subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities 
met, pursuant to recess, at 10 : 10 a. m. in room 705, 45 Broadway, 
Hon. Clyde Doyle presiding. 

Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder, 
of Missouri (appearance as noted) ; Clyde Doyle, of California; and 
Donald J. Jackson, of California, 

Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; Raymond T, Col- 
lins, and Mrs. Dolores Scotti, investigators. 

Mr. Doyle. The committee will come to order, please. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Fred Hellerman, please. Will you please remain 
standing while the chairman administers an oath to you, 

Mr. Doyle. Before I swear the witness, may the record show that 
the committee is in session and Congressman Jackson, of California, 
and Congressman Doyle are both present. Therefore, a quorum of 
the subcommittee of three appointed by Mr. Walter, the full com- 
mittee chairman, is present. Mr. Moulder, the other member of the 
subconmiittee, will be absent until later this morning. Therefore, 
we will proceed. 

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Hellerman. I do. 

Mr. Doyle. Will you please occupy the witness chair. 

TESTIMONY OF FRED HELLERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

MARTIN POPPER 

Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself, by name, residence, and oc- 
cupation. 

Mr. Hellerman, Fred Hellerman, 41 Kew Gardens Road, Kew 
Gardens, N. Y. 

Mr. Arens. Where are you employed? 

Mr. Hellerman. I am self-employed as an arranger, a singer and 
a teacher, and so on. 

^ Executive testimonv ordered released by the committee. 

871 



872 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Where do you teach ? 

Mr. Hellerman. I teach privately. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have any connection with the Metropolitan 
Music School? 

]Mr. Hellerman. Not presently, no. 

Mr. Arens. Have you had a 

Mr. Popper. I wonder 

Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon, counsel. You are appearing today 
in response to a subpena served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Hellerman. Yes. 

ISIr. Arens. And you are represented by Counsel ? 

Mr. Hellerman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you identify yourself for the record. 

Mr. Popper. Martin Popper, 160 Broadway, New York. 

I wasn't going to ask that. I wonder whether you have any objec- 
tion to stating the purpose of this particular inquiry. 

IMr. Arens. The inquiry is with reference to Communist penetration 
of the entertainment field. 

What is your connection, or what has been your connection, with 
the Metropolitan Music School ? 

Mr. Heller^ian. I believe I taught there for a brief period in the 
fall of 19 — I am kind of confused on dates, I am afraid. I think in 
the fall of 1955 and early 1956. 

Mr. Arens. Are you presently carried on the faculty, presently 
listed as a faculty member? 

Mr. Hellerman. I don't know if I am jDresently listed there. They 
may have me down as on leave of absence, I am not sure. 

Mr. Jackson. You say you believe that you taught there. Did you 
teach there? 

Mr. Hellerman. I did teach there. 

Mr. Arens. Where else do you teach ? 

Mr. Hellerman. That is the only institutional teaching I have done, 
I teach privately. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us, if you ])lease, what other professional activities 
are you engaged in besides this teaching? 

Mr. Hellerman. I am engaged in ari-anging. 

Mr. Arens. For whom ? 

Mr. Hellerman. For various singers. 

Mr. Arens. Could you tell us just the highliglits of your arranging 
work? 

Mr. Hellerman. I have done some work for a singer named Lonnie 
Dongegan. I have accompanied him. He is an English singer who 
was here hist year. I was accomj^anying him. 

Mr. Arens. What instrument do you play? 

]\Ir. Helleriman. Guitar. 

Mr. Arens. What has been your connection with the Weavers ? 

]VIr. Hellerman. I sang and ])erformed with that group. 

Mr. Arens. What was the history of the group, please? 

Mr. Hellerman. The Weavers got together. I think they were 
organized in about 1949. 

Mr. Ari'^ns. "WHio composed the Weavers? 

Mr. Helleriman. The Weavers are made up of Lee Hayes, Peter 
Seeger, Ronnie Gilbert, and myself. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 873 

Mr. Arens. How long liave the Weavers been in operation? 

Mr. Hellerimax. The Weavers were constituted from 1949, I be- 
lieve it was, to approximately the end of 1952, when they reconstituted 
themselves for 1 concert in December 1955, I believe, and again for 2 
concerts in 1956. 

Mr. Jacksox. Mr. Chairman, I think it might be well for the record 
again to reflect at this point that no connotation should be drawn by 
the injection of any names at this time or subsequently during the 
hearing unless, of course, subsequent testimony develops additional 
information with respect to them. 

Mr. Doyle. That is right, Mr. Jackson. 

Mr. i^RENS. xVre the Weavers presently in operation ? 

JNIr. Hellerman. No, not presently. 

^Ir. Arens. ^^Hiat connection, if an}^ have you had with the School 
of Jewish Studies ? 

JMr. Hellerman. Is that — Excuse me a moment. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hellerman". I am afraid I really don't understand the ques- 
tion. I don't know exactly what you mean when you say association. 

]Mr. Arens, Have you performed at the School of Jewish Studies ? 

]\Ir. Hellerman. I don't know. I have performed in a great many 
places. 

Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollection of performing there? If 
you do not, we will pass on to another question. 

Mr. Hellerman. I have no recollection of performing there. 

Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

]Mr. Heller]\[an. I believe that I will decline to answer that ques- 
tion on the basis of the fifth amendment. 

]Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr. Hellerman. I decline to answer that on the previous grounds. 

Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention, if you please, Mr, Hel- 
lerman, to the article appearing in the Daily Worker of 1947 (Decem- 
ber 12), which I shall now display to you, in reference to a series of 
entertainment programs. We have marked here, just for the purpose 
of directing youi- attention to it, the name "Fred Hellerman," of 
People's Songs, who is to perform in "Village Varieties, a smash hit," 
and the admission is 750 or a subscription to The Worker. Kindl_y 
look at that article, if you please, sir, and tell us if that prompts your 
recollection of that incident. 

Mr. Hellerivian. I decline to answer that. 

(Document marked "Hellerman Exhibit No. 1," and retained in 
committee files.) 

Mr. Arens. Are you connected with People's Songs? 

Mr. Hellersian. I decline on the same basis. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with People's Songs? 

Mr. Heller:\ian. Again I decline. 

INIr. Arens. What is People's Songs ? 

Mr. Heller3ian. I decline to answer that question. 

]\Ir. Arens. To what professional groups do j'ou belong ? 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 

Mr, Hellerman. Could you make that question more specific? 



874 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Do you belong to any professional groups that you 
might call unions ? 

Mr. Hellerman. Yes. I belong to several entertainment unions. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about them, please. 

Mr. Hellerman. I belong to the American Federation of Musicians. 

Mr, Arens. What local? 

Mr. Hellerman. 802. 

Mr. Arens. And have you ever held an office in I^ocal 802 ? 

Mr. Hellerman. No. 

Mr. Arens. Any other organization? 

Mr. Hellerman. The only other is the American Guild of Variety 
Artists. 

Mr. Arens. How long have you belonged to that organization ? 

Mr. Hellerman. Intermittently, for 7 years. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever held an office in the American Guild of 
Variety Artists? 

Mr, Hellerman. No. 

Mr. Arens, Are there any other professional groups to which you 
belong? Excuse me just a moment. Am I clear that you presently 
belong to the American Guild of Variety Artists ? 

Mr. Hellerman. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. To what other groups of that nature do you belong? 

Mr. Hellerman, I believe those are the only ones, Mr. Arens. 

Mr. Jackson. Not AFTRA? 

Mr. Hellerman. No ; I don't belong to AFTRA. 

(Off the record). 

Mr, Arens, Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the subpena 
of this witness be continued until April 9 at 10 o'clock at this place, 
45 Broadway, 

Mr. Popper. One additional statement. 

Mr. Jackson. Off the record. 

(Off the record,) 

Mr, Doyle. I will order the subpena continued to April 9 at 10 
o'clock in this room, 

(Off the record,) 

Mr, Doyle, We will go back on the record. 

Mr. Popper. Mr. Hellerman wants to make one additional state- 
ment. 

Mr. Hellerman. I feel that perhaps the question of my employ- 
ment wasn't made veiy clear. Although I am engaged in a free-lance 
way presently, I am employed, that is, I will 1^ through Saturday 
anyway, at Theodore's Restaurant, 4 East 56th. 

Mr, Arens, Playing the guitar? 

Mr. Hellerman. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. "Wliat is this tour you told us about off the record a 
moment ago that you contemplate taking, what agency or organiza- 
tion or group is that ? 

Mr, Hellerman, That will be a series of 6 or 7 concerts for which 
the Weavers are reconstituting themselves. That is the only profes- 
sional work that we are doing this year. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 875 

Mr. Doyle. Any further questions ? 

Mr. Arens. Is Ronnie Gilbert with the Weavers? 

Mr. Hellerman. As much as the Weavers work ; yes. 

Mr. Arens. We have no further questions at this time, Mr. Chair- 
man. 

(The subcommittee was recessed at 4:30 p. m., Thureday, Febru- 
ary 7, 1957, to reconvene at 10 a. m., Friday, February 8, 1957.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNISM IN THE METROPOLI 
TAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC., AND RELATED FIELDS- 
PART 2 



FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 8. 1957 

United States House or Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the 

C^OMMITTEE ON Un- AMERICAN ACTIVITIES, 

NetoYork,N.Y. 

EXECUTIVE SESSION ^ 

The subconmiittee of the Coniniittee on TJn-Americfin Activities 
met, pursuant to recess, at 10 : 05 a. m. in room 705, 45 Broadway, Hon. 
Clyde Doyle j^residing. 

Committee members present : Representatives Morgan M. Moulder, 
of Missouri (appearance as noted) ; Clyde Doyle, of California; and 
]^ernard W. Keai'iiey, of New York. 

Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; llaymond T. 
Collins and Mrs. Dolores Scotti, investigators. 

Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order. 

Let the record show^ that, by virtue of an order by Francis E. 
Walter, the chairman of the full committee of the House Connnittee 
on Un-American Activities, under Public Law 601, a subcommittee 
has been appointed comprising Congressmen Moulder, Kearney, and 
Doyle for today's hearing. Of the subcommittee, Messrs. Kearney, 
of New York, and Doyle, of California, are both present. Therefore, 
a quorum of the subcommittee is present, and we will proceed. 

Mr. Moulder. Will you be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear 
that the testimony which you are about to give before the committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God 'I 

Mr. KouKLT. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE KOUKLY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
ISIDORE G. NEEDLEMAN 

Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. KouKLY. My name is George Koukly. I live at 500 Grand 
Street. I am a musician. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Koukly, in response to 
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on 
Un-American Activities ? 

Mr. Koukly. I beg your pardon ? 



1 Executive testimony released by the committee. 

877 



878 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena 'i 

Mr. KouKLY. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ? 

Mr. KouKLY. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Counsel will kindly identify himself. 

Mr. Needleman. Isidore G. Needleman, 165 Broadway, New York. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Koukly, where are you employed ? 

Mr. KouKLY. At present I am not employed. I am, so to speak, 
a free lancer. 

Mr. Arens. Where were you last employed ? 

Mr. Koukly. Last I had in September a job with the Danish Bal- 
let. That is the Royal Danish Ballet. 

Mr. Arens. Was that in New York ? 

Mr. KouKLY. In New York and outside of New York. 

Mr. Arens. What instrument do you play ? 

Mr. KouKLY. Bass viol. 

Mr. Arens. Do you do any teaching ? 

Mr. KouKLY. No. 

Mr. Arens. Do you do any composing ? 

Mr. KouKLY. No. 

Mr. Arens. Have you had any engagements with the Hurok Enter- 
prises ? 

Mr. KouKLY. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. What is the Hurok Enterprises? 

Mr. KouKLY. They are bringing in this country some companies of 
performers. 

Mr. Arens. Is it a company that contracts with artists, an engage- 
ment company that contracts with artists to perform ? 

Mr. KouKLY. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Does it specialize in artists management outfits through- 
out the world ? 

Mr. KouKLY. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. When were you last under contract with Hurok? 

Mr. KouKLY. In September, I would say, of 1955. 

Mr, Arens. Where were you engaged by them and for what 
purpose ? 

Mr. KoiTKLY. To furnish an orchestra for the Metropolitan Opera, 
for the ballet company. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Symphony of 
the Air? 

Mr. KouKLY. Late, let us say, last year or in this year, I had single 
performances with them. They called me. I am not a member of the 
Symphony of the Air. 

Mr. Arens. Who calls you for employment purposes from the Sym- 
phony of the Air ? Do you know ? 

Mr. KouKLY. Who calls me ? 

Mr. Arens. Who calls you? 

Mr. Moulder. We will suspend for a few minutes. 

(Brief recess.) 

Mr. Arens. The question is : Who calls you from the Symphony of 
the Air ? 

Mr. Koukly. I assume the secretary of the Symphony. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever contracted for orchestral groups to 
appear ? 



COMMUNISM m METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 879 

Mr. KouKLY. Yes, 

Mr. Arens. And on whose behalf have you contracted? 

Mr. KouKLY. On behalf of the management. 

Mr. Arens. What management, what company ? 

Mr. KouKLY. The Hurok management. 

Mr. Arexs. Over what course of time have you been engaged m that 
activity of contracting for musicians on behalf of the Hurok Enter- 
prises? 

Mr. KouKLY. That is seasonal, seasonal engagements. Sometimes 
the season will last 9 weeks, sometimes 20 weeks. That is for New 
York and outside of New York. 

Mr. Arens. To what professional groups do you belong? 

Mr. KouKLY. I belong to the musicians union 802. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been an officer in 802 of the musicians 
union? 

Mr. KouKLY. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. What office have you held ? 

Mr. KouKLY. I was a member of the executive board. 

Mr. Arens. When? 

Mr. KouKLY. In the period between 1935 and 1938. 

Mr. Arens. When you have contracted for musicians to pla^ in 
behalf of the Hurok Enterprises, do you yourself select the musicians 
who are going to perform ? 

Mr. KouKLY. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist? 

Mr. KouKLY. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Moulder. You decline to answer, relying upon the privileges 
provided for under the fifth amendment as I understand it. You 
decline to answer by invoking the privilege provided under the fifth 
amendment to the Constitution ? 

Mr. KouKLY. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. How many men have you contracted for as musicians 
in the course of the last 2 or 3 years ? 

Mr, KouKLY, Sometimes the orchestra consisted of about 36 men, 
sometimes 40, 

Mr. Arens. Where have they played ? 

Mr. KouKLY. Where? 

Mr. Arens, Where have they played ? 

Mr, KouKLY, They usually start the season in New York at the 
Metropolitan Opera House for 4 or 5 weeks, and they then go out. 

Mr. Arens. In selecting these musicians for whom you have con- 
tracted, have you pruned out the anti-Communist and selected Com- 
munists principally for your players? 

Mr. KouKLY. In selecting an orchestra, I hold auditions. Usually, 
in the union, everybody knows who is contracting. In looking for 
a job, you know who is who. 

Mr. Arens. And you know them, too ; is that right ? 

Mr. KouKLY. Not necessarily. We have a membership of 30,000. 
I get letters, telephone calls for a job, and I hold auditions. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever engaged a person as a musician at the 
behest of the Communist Party ? 

Mr, KouKLY. May I consult counsel ? 

Mr, Arens. Surely. 

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) 



880 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. KouKLY. No. 

Mr. Akens. Have you ever engaged as a musician a person known 
by you to be a Communist ? 

Mr. KouKLY. No. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know any persons in the entertainment or 
musicians field in the New York area known by you to be 
Communists? 

Mr. KoiTKLY. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, we have no further questions of this 
witness at this time and respectfully suggest that his snbpena be 
ordered continued until April 10, please. 

Mr. Moulder. Any questions, Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. 

Mr. MouiJ)ER. Mr. Kearney? 

Mr. Kearney. No questions, 

Mr. Moulder. The witness is advised that the subpena served upon 
him will remain in full force and effect, and he is ordered and directed 
to return to this hearing room at 10 a. m. next April 10. 

(At 1 ]). m., the committee was recessed to reconvene at 3 p. m., 
the same day. 

AFTERNOON SESSION— FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1957 

Mr. Moulder. The subcommittee will be in order. 

Mr. Arens. The next witness is Mr. Solomon. Will you please 
invite Mr. Jesse L. Solomon to come in. 

Mr. Solomon, will you please remain standing while the chairman 
administers an oath to you. 

Mr. MoiTLDRR. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you 
are about to give will be the truth, the whole ti-uth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. SoLOMOx. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JESSE L. SOLOMON 

]\Ir. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Solomon. Jesse L. Solomon; 9049 71st Street, Brooklyn; 
musician. 

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today as a friendly witness in the 
enter]>rise of the couimittee in undertaking to develop information re- 
specting Communist penetration of certain areas of the entertainment 
industi-y? Is that correct? 

^[r. SoLoivroN. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, I believe you are not even appear- 
ing under subpena. are you? 

Mr. Solomon. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Mr. Solomon, tell us fii-st of all where and when you 
were born. 

Mr. Solomon. I was born, the legal date is April 26, 1907, I usually 
celebrate on the 25th; United States of America, Brooklyn. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Arens, I didn't quite hear but the record should 
sliow, if you didn't ask him, that he is here without counsel. 

Ml-. Arens. Yes, Mr. Doyle. The record shows that he is appearing 
voluntarily as a friendly witness. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 881 

Mr. Arens. Give us just :i very brief sketch of your education. 

Mr. Solomon. Elementary school; Boys Hi^h School, Brooklyn; 
2 years at City College of New York. That is it. 

Mr. Arexs. Give us, if you please, just a brief sketch of your em- 
plo3'ment activities since you reached adulthood and completed your 
formal education, just the highlights, please. 

Mr. Solomon. I have been a musician practically all my adult life. 
I have worked in the dance field. 

Mr. Arens. What kind of instrument do you play ? 

Mr. Solomon. I play the piano. I have worked in night clubs, at 
affairs like weddings, balls, and things of that sort. Do you want the 
])laces that I have been employed? 

Mr. Arens. Just the highlights of your career. 

Mr. Solomon. I have been employed in night clubs like the Latin 
Quarter, Leon & Eddie's; in restaurant work for a while, at what 
is called Zhnmerman's. I worked in the carnival. Places of that 
sort. 

Mr. Arens. Have you ever joined the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. I joined the Communist Party around I would 
say — my memory is vague on this, I am not sure — but I think it was 
in 1932. 

Mr. Arens. Where did you join the Communist Party? 

Mr. Solomon. In New York. 

Mr. Arens. How long were you in the Communist Party? 

Mr. Solomon. Until 1940. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us briefly about your career in the Communist 
Party, the highlights of your service. 

Mr. Solomon. There wasn't very much. After I joined the party — 
I joined around 1932 — I was employed by a vaudeville act, you might 
call it, and I traveled aromid with them for about 2i/^ years or there- 
abouts. When I got back to New York — that is, I traveled around 
with them off and on. We were in and out of New York. I didn't 
have too much contact with the party except when I was in New 
York. The times that I did get into New York, I was sort of 
drimimed by the members of the party to come to the meetings and 
things of that sort. 

Mr. Arens. Are you, or have you ever been, connected with Local 
802? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. I am a member of the Musicians Local 802. 

Mr. Arens. Can you tell us, in resume form, any Communist Party 
activities in connection with Local 802 ? 

Mr. Solomon. The only activities that I can recall in connection 
with Local 802, were election activities that had directly to do with 
any work within 802 which I myself did not participate in. 

Mr. Arens. But you knew about it ? 

Mr. Solomon. Of course, I knew about them because I was a mem- 
ber of the party. I was supposed to participate in them but didn't. 

Mr. Arens. Did the party at one time assign you, during your 
career in the party, to specialize in work among Negro musicians? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes ; that is so. 



882 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us the essence of that work, please. 

Mr. Solomon. The work was to sort of mix socially with the Negro 
musicians, specifically in Harlem, with an aim to recruiting naturally 
as many members as we could. 

Mr. Arens. Was there a group known as the New Amsterdam 
Musical Association in Harlem ? 

Mr. Solomon. There was. 

Mr. Arens. Was that a group principally of Negroes ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes ; Negro musicians. 

Mr. Arens. Did you work in that group ? 

Mr. Solomon. I can't say I worked in the group; no. We tried 
to get into the group, but it was a very, very difficult thing to do.* 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any success in your penetration of the 
Negro musician group ? 

Mr. Solomon. I would say very meager success. Would you be a 
little more specific as far as success ? 

Mr. Arens. Did you recruit members into the party ? 

Mr. Solomon. No ; it was very meager. 

Mr. Arens. You broke with the party in 1940 ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. What precipitated your break? 

Mr. Solomon. The immediate cause was the invasion of Finland by 
Russia. 

Mr. Arens. That caused you to see the light with reference to the 
conspiratorial nature of the party, is that right? 

Mr. Solomon. No, I wouldn't say that. That is not exactly correct. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us, then. 

Mr. Solomon. Actually I had broken with the party long before 
that. I was sort of drifting along with it, if I may say so. I attended 
meetings very irregularly. I paid my dues very irregularly. It is a 
hard tiling to convey. Maybe it doesn't make sense, but actually 
mentally, I don't think I ever was a member of the Communist Party. 

Mr. Arens. But you were physically identified with the party? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. And actually served as a party member ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. As the statement says, when I first 
joined the party, it was in the depths of the depression. The music 
business was very bad. I had no work at all. At that time there was 
a sort of bandwagon. The idea was, if you joined the party, possibly 
you might get some work out of it. That was the idea. 

Mr. Arens. I should like to read off to you some names here and 
ask you, with reference to each name, whether or not to a certainty you 
know the person whose name I read off as a person who has been a 
Communist. I don't want speculation, of course, or surmise. I want 
knowledge based upon attendance at a closed party meeting. 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr, Arens. Positive party identification, you understand that ? 

Mr, Solomon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. David Walter. 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You knew him as a Communist ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know him because of attendance at closed 
party meetings? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 883 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Who is or who was, to your knowledge, David Walter? 

Mr. Solomon. At the time I knew him, I think he was working — I 
am not sure whether it was Eadio City or Roxy. 

Mr. Arens. Sterling Hunkins. 

Mr. SoL03iON. I saw him at closed party meetings. I don't know 
too much about him personally, but I did see him at meetings. 

Mr. Arens. Is he a musician ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, I think so. 

Mr. Arens. Do you here and now identify Mm as a person who, to 
your certain knowledge, was a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Solomon. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. Edward Tiny Walters. 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about him. 

Mr. Solomon. He was a man, or actually at that time he was called 
a unit, the unit to which I belonged. 

Mr. Arens. Who is he ? 

Mr. Solomon. Now he is one of the officers — officials — in the union, 
I believe he is on the governing board. 

Mr. Arens. Of what union ? 

Mr. Solomon. Local 802. 

Mr. Arens. Albert Modiano. 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about him, please, sir. 

Mr. Solomon. I don't know very much about him personally, either, 
but he was one of the officers of the union to which I belonged. 

Mr. Arens. The Communist Party fraction ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Moulder. To what union is he referring? 

Mr. Arens. Communist Party fraction. 

Mr. Moulder. Can you identify that more specifically ? 

Mr. Solomon. The unit I belonged to ? I can't. 

Mr. Arens. That was the fraction within the union ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. That was the entity of the Commimist Party operating 
within the union, is that correct ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Have you served in closed party meetings with Albert 
Modiano ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is correct. 

Mr. Arens. Is he a musician ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere is he now ? 

Mr. Solomon. I don't know. I haven't seen him for a long time. 

Mr. Arens. George Koukly. Tell us about him. 

Mr. Solomon. He also was one of the higher officials of the unit 
that I was in — at the beginning anyway. 

Mr. Moulder. When you say "unit," you are referring to Commu- 
nist unit ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, definitely. He was one of the higher officials of 
the unit that I was in. Later, when the unit was split so that the so- 
called — what we call in the musical parlance long-haired musicians 

91198— 57— pt.2 9 



884 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

split away from the dance musicians, I think he went with the long- 
haired musicians. 

Mr. Arens. Where is he now ? 

Mr. Solomon. I see him in the union once in a while. 

Mr. Arens. In 802? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. Max Goberman. 

Mr. Solomon. Goberman. 

Mr. Arens. Tell us about him, please, sir. 

Mr. Solomon. He was a conductor at the time. Although I didn't 
have too much contact with him, I know that I saw him at closed party 
meetings when we had joint meetings of the two groups that were in 
existence at the time. 

Mr. Arens. You had two fractions within Local 802; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is correct. One was engaged in so-called con- 
cert and theater field. One was in the dance field. 

Mr. Arens. Where is he now ? 

Mr. Solomon. I don't know. 

Mr. Arens. Sidney Feldman. 

Mr. Solomon. He was an elected official of the union. 

Mr. Arens. 802 ? 

Mr. Solomon. 802 ; that is right. It was in the 1932 election, I be- 
lieve it was. I forget what office he held. 

Mr. Arens. Do you identify him now as a person who, to your cer- 
tain knowledge, was a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Solomon. Definitely. 

Mr. Arens. Wliere is he now ? 

Mr. Solomon. I don't know. 

Mr. Arens. David Ginden. 

Mr. Solomon. He was a member. I know him. 

Mr. Arens. You are referring to the Communist Party fraction? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. I know him, but I knew nothing whatever about 
him. I still don't know anything about him. 

Mr. Arens. You don't know where he is ? 

Mr. Solomon. No ; I have no idea. 

Mr. Arens. Gerald Rudy. 

Mr. Solomon. The same comments that I made before go for Gerald 
Rudy. 

Mr. Arens. You knew him as a Communist ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. But you don't know where he is now ? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Arnold Arnstein. 

Mr. Solomon. The same. 

Mr. Arens. David Freed. 

Mr. Solomon. Freed was always an outstanding member of the 
party. He was an outstanding member of the unit. I guess he is to 
this day. 

Mr. Arens. Where is he now ; do you know ? 

Mr. Solomon. I don't know. 

Mr. Arens. James Collis. 

Mr. Solomon, Everything I said before goes for him, too. 

Mr. Arens. You don't know where he is ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 885 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Carroll Hollister. 

Mr. Solomon. Hollister at the time- 



Mr. Arens. Is that a woman or a man ? 

Mr. Solomon. A man. At the time I knew him, then he was a piano 
accompanist for John Charles Thomas. I do identify him definitely 
as a member. 

Mr. Arens. You don't know where he is now ? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Sam Schneider. 

Mr. Solomon. He was a member of the dance unit. 

Mr. Arens. Of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Solomon. Of the Communist Party. As I understand it now, 
he is dying of cancer. Somebody told me on the union floor. That 
is the only thing I know about him. 

Mr. Arens. Arthur Turkischer. 

Mr. Solomon. He goes along with the rest of them, what I said 
l)reviously. 

Mr. Arens. ^Vllere is he now ? 

Mr. Solomon. I have no idea. 

Mr. Arens. Sol Dzazga. 

Mr. Solomon. About him I know nothing whatever except that he 
was a member of the — was he a member of our dance unit? I think 
he was. 

Mr. Arens. Do you identify him as a person who is a Communist? 

Mr. Solomon. He is, definitely. 

Mr. Arens. Artie Deutsch. 

Mr. Solomon. He was a member of the dance musicians' unit. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know where he is now ? 

Mr. Solomon. I believe he lives out on Long Island somewhere. 
That is about all I can tell yoU about him. 

Mr. Moulder. Do you say he was an active Communist Party 
member ? 

Mr. Solomon. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Arens. Archie Abramson. 

Mr. Solomon. I think the name is Abrams, not Abramson. 

Mr. Arens. Arthur Aaron. Did you know him as a Communist? 

Mr. Solomon. This is a problem. I have run up against something 
here that I can't say for sure whether he was because, while the name 
rings a bell, I can't identify the man. I just cannot identify him. 

Mr. Arens. You say the name rings a bell? Help the committee 
on that. 

Mr. Solomon. I can't. 

Mr. xA-RENS. "VVliat kind of a bell does it ring, is what I mean. 

jNIr. Solo:mon. When Mrs. Scotti first gave me tlie name, I was sure 
I recognized it. Wlien I began to think about it, especially since 
yesterday, it is possible tliat I confuse liis name with men that I 
know who are also named Aaron, because I know men in the union 
like Max Aarons, who is not Communist; and I know another Aaron, 
who is also not a Communist as far as I know. I don't know. 

Mr. Arens. Would you recognize the man you knew as Aaron who 
was a Communist? 

Mr. Solomon. No. That is just the point. 



886 COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Arens. You would recognize these other men that you talked 
about ? 

Mr. Solomon. Oh, definitely ; yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person whose last name was Bellis? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Akens. Do you recall his first name ? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know him as a Communist ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. He was a musician ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. In Local 802 ? 

Mr. Solomon. As far as I know. 

Mr. Arens. Do you happen to know where he is now ? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know a person whose last name was Bloom- 
field? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. You don't know his first name ? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know where he is now ? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know a man by the name of Simeon Jurist? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Arens. Do you know where he is now ? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know Harry Belkin ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. 

Mr. Arens. Do you know where he is now ? 

Mr. Solomon. I met him in the union a couple of times within the 
last month. I hadn't seen him for many years. He hadn't been to 
the union for many years. 

Mr. Arens. You are active in the union now yourself ? 

Mr. Solomon. How do you mean active? 

Mr. Arens. Are you a member ? 

Mr. Solomon. Oh, sure. I am a professional musician. 

Mr. Arens. Do you go to meetings ? 

Mr. Solomon. I am not active in that sense. 

Mr. Arens. I think I have forgotten. We have had so much testi- 
mony here, I confuse the background of one witness with another oc- 
casionally. Wliat is your own present occupation ? 

Mr. Solomon. I am a pianist; a jazz pianist. 

Mr. Arens. Yes; you told us about that. Do you have any other 
information that you could give this committee — whether or not I 
may have interrogated you about the subject matter, Mr. Solomon — 
with reference to people who have been known by you to be Com- 
munists who are active, or have been active, in the entertainment in- 
dustry or music industry ? 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 887 

Mr. Solomon. These names are the only names that I can associate 
with it right now. 

Mr. Arens. But you would be in a position to look at the face of 
these people and say this is John Jones, and this is Harry Brown, and 
so forth ? 

Mr. Solomon. I am pretty sure. 

Mr. Arens. Whom I knew as a Communist ? 

Mr. Solomon. That is right. 

Mr. Arens. I take it you would be disposed to do that in a public 
session ? 

Mr. Solomon. I have a personal problem involved in this. 

Mr. Arens. Do you want to go off the record ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, please. 

(Off the record.) 

Mr. Arens. The committee appreciates your cooperation, Mr. Solo- 
mon. 

(Off the record.) 

Mr. Moulder. Back on the record. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know Earl Robinson as a Communist? 

Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Arens. Did you know Mark Blitzstein ? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. I know both the names, but I never knew 
whether they were party members. 

Mr. Arens. Did you have any connection at any time in your life 
with the Village Vanguard ? 

Mr. Solomon. No, sir. 

Mr. Arens. What is the Village Vanguard ? 

Mr. Solomon. It is a nightclub. 

Mr. Moulder. Congressman Doyle wishes to ask you some ques- 
tions. 

Mr. Doyle. I didn't hear you state where these closed Communist 
Party cell meetings were held. Could you identify now, if you 
were asked today, where each of these meetings was held at which you 
saw these men? 

Mr. Solomon. I do not think so, sir. 

Mr. Dotle. Were they held at different meeting places? 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

]VIr. Doyle. "Wliat ])laces, for instance ? 

Mr. Solomon. In the statement tliat Mrs. Scotti has, I gave one 
address where most of our meetings were held, which was 77 Fifth 
Avenue. 

Mr. Doyle. What persons whose names you gave could you posi- 
tively identify as having been seen by you when you were present in 
closed Communist Party cell meetings at this address, 77 Fifth 
Avenue ? 

Mr. Solomon. I couldn't. 

Mr. Doyle. Could you place any of them at that place ? 

Mr. Solomon. No, sir; I cannot specifically say where I saw any 
of these people, because the period is so far back. The whole thing 
goes back to about 20 or 23 years. 

Mr. Doyle. I realize that. At what other addresses, if any, were 
these Communist cell meetings held ? 

Mr. Solomon. Specifically, I don't know exactly. We had a meet- 
ing place in Harlem. I just don't remember the place. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

Mr. Doyle. Approximately what place in Harlem ? 

Mr. Solomon. It didn't have a name. I believe it was on 124th 
Street, bnt I am not sure. I can't swear to it. I couldn't tell you for 
sure. 

Mr. Doyle. You understand the reason why I am asking you this? 

Mr. Solomon. Of course, I understand. 

Mr. Doyle. How could we question a person as to whether or not 
he attended Communist meetings at No. 77 Fifth Avenue when we 
have no one to swear that he did ? 

Mr. Solomon. I understand your position. It is too far back for 
me to remember. 

Mr. Doyle. About what period of time were these meetings held at 
77 Fifth Avenue where you saw these men ? 

Mr. Solomon. I would say about 1937 onward. 

Mr. Doyle. How do you know they were closed Communist Party 
cell meetings ? 

Mr. Solomon. Because I was a Commimist Party member. I know 
when they had open meetings, and I know when they were closed 
meetings. 

Mr. Doyle. How did you know when they had open meetings ? 

Mr. Solomon. It was announced as such tliat we were going to have 
an open meeting on such-and-such a date. That was an open meeting. 

Mr. Doyle. Could you now identify, as you are under examination 
and oath, which meetings were closed and which were open ? 

Mr. Solomon. No, sir. 

Mr. DoYi.E. Hoav, then, could we place these men in any cell meet- 
ings, if you cannot now remember which were open and which were 
not? 

Mr. Solomon. I just can't remember. It is an impossibility. The 
whole period is completely vague in my mind, completely vague. 

Mr. Doyle. I realize, of course, that there must be certain vagueness. 
I am examining this way, not to embarrass you, but to find out, if I 
can, how helpful your testimony might or might not be. 

Mr. Arens. These people whom you have identified you knew had 
been in closed party meetings ? 

Mr. Solomon. Definitely. This is as definite as I can make it. In 
the first place, I was not a regular attendant at the meetings. That is 
No. 1. What I mean is, that the thing did not have what I would call 
a vital interest for me. It isn't that I am trying to, what you might 
say, extenuate myself or anything like that. That just happens to be 
the objective fact, the truth. The whole thing is just vague. That is 
all. I cannot say that I saw Mr. So-and-So on this and that date, at 
this place. 

Mr. Arens. But you do know that every man whom you have identi- 
fied today as a Communist served with you in a closed party meeting 
somewhere ? 

Mr. Solomon. Somewhere or other ; yes, sir. 

Mr. DoYLE. I wish to state I am not asking you these questions be- 
cause I question your veracity. I do not. We appreciate your will- 
ingness to help us, and I am trying to get at the extent or the value of 
your testimony without your being able to appear in a public hearing. 

Mr. Solomon. I appreciate what you mean. I would give anything 
in the world to be able to help yovi. 



COMMUNISM IN METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 889 

Mr. Doyle. Did yoivreceive written notices of these meetings? 
Mr. Solomon. No. 

Mr. Doyle. Did you receive phone notices of these meetings ? 

Mr. Solomon. Once in a while, yes ; but most of them were by word 
of mouth. 

Mr. Doyle. Who was the chairman of the Communist cell ? Maybe 
that would help you. Who was the leader of the Communist cell ? 

Mr. Solomon. It kept changing all the time. There was no specific 
person. 

Mr. Doyle. Name one. 

Mr. Solomon. I pointed out — I don't know whether you would call 
it the chairman exactly. 

Mr. Doyle. Who was the leader ? 

Mr, Solomon. There was not a chairman as such; but among the 
leaders were Koukly, Modiano, Freed, and Feldman. Who else did 
I say ? These are the ones that I knew as the leaders. 

Mr. Doyle. Who did you pay dues to as a Cormnunist in those 
cells? 

Mr. Solomon. This also really used to vary. There was no such 
thing as a treasurer. Sometimes there would be a man for a month, 
and then there would be somebody else for another month. 

Mr. Doyle. Can you remember 1 or 2 of them who were collecting 
your dues ? Again I am only questioning 

Mr. Solomon. Yes. I understand. I wish I could tell you, but 
I can't. I just can't. 

Mr. Doyle. Did you see Mr. Aaron walk out of this room today? 

Mr. Solomon. I was told that he was Mr. Aaron, but I didn't know 
him. 

Mr. Doyle. You had never seen him before ? 

Mr. Solomon. Not that I could recall. 

Mr. Kearney. Is that the individual who denied membership? 

Mr. Moulder. Yes. 

Mr. Doyle. I think that is all. 

Mr. Arens. No further questions. 

]Mr. Soi.o:mox. May I say, gentlemen, before we leave, T wish that 
I could cooperate with you more. I would like to do it as whole- 
heartedly as I possibly could, but it is too far back. The only thing 
I can remember are these people, their names, and that is about all, 
actually. 

Mr. D0YI.E. May I ask just one further question : Will you continue 
to help us to the extent of your ability with Mrs. Scotti and Mr. 
Costigan as they question you further to see if there is any way you 
can help ? 

Mr. Solomon. I certainly would. 

Mr. Moulder. If that is necessary. 

Mr. Solomon. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Moulder. Mr, Solomon, as chairman of this subcommittee and 
in behalf of my colleagues, Congressman Doyle of California and 
Congressman Kearney of New York, I wish to say that we are indeed 
grateful and appreciative of the cooperation which you have given us, 
and that we also realize and appreciate the fact that the period of time 
to which you referred makes it difficult for you to recall the details. 



890 COMMUNISM EST METROPOLITAN MUSIC SCHOOL, INC. 

You have very clearly and vividly explained why you cannot recall 
a lot of details since it was such a long period of time ago, approxi- 
mately 20 years. 

I have conferred with both members of the committee, and they are 
in accord with my sentiments of appreciation and understanding of 
your position and your desire and hope that it will not be necessary 
for you to reveal yourself publicly. 

You are excused as a witness. 

Mr. Solomon. Thank you. 

Mr. Aeens. That is all the witnesses, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Moulder. We stand adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 4 : 20 p. m. Friday, February 8, 1957, the com- 
mittee was recessed subject to call of the Chair.) 



INDEX 



INDIVIDUALS 

Page 
Aaron, Arthur 885, 889 

Aarons, Max 885 

Abrams, Archie 885 

Ackley, John Kenneth 614, 615, 623, 641-647 (testimony) 

Adams, Arthur Alexandrovich 814, 815 

Addonizzio, Ralph 832 

Albertson, William 789 

Amter, Israel 818, 858 

Arkin, Alan 816, 817 

Arnstein, Arnold 822-824 (testimony), 884 

Barsky 855 

Belkin, Harry 886 

Bellis 886 

Bernay, Eric 814, 815 

Berrafato, Benny 633, 831-833 (testimony) 

Blitzstein, Mark 887 

Bloomfield 886 

Booth Alan 757-760 (testimony) 

Barodkin, Samuel 744,760 (2, 3), 773 

Boudin, Leonard B 647, 658, 749, 770, 820, 822, 850, 854 

Bridges, Harry 710 

Browder, Earl 755, 777, 812 

Brown, Lucy (Mrs. Lucy Brown Wallach) 626,705-711 (testimony) 

Carmen, Elias 735, 810-816 (testimony) 

Cashmore, John 780 

Chasins, Abrani 616, 618, 619 

Cherlin, Leonard 621,622,627 (testimony) ; 628-641 (testimony) ; 

704, 712, 720, 721, 832, 853, 862, 866, 86S 

Christlieb, Donald 794, 863, 864 

Claiborne, Robert 615, 626, 658-672 (testimony) : 785 

Clement, Paul 760 (1-3) 

Cohen 624 

Collis, James 631, 793-794 (testimony) ; 835, 884 

Cooke, Marvel 787 

Critelli, Louis 833 

Davis, Ben 666 

Dennis, Eugene 805 

Deutsch, Arthur 631, 632, 861-862 (testimony) ; 885 

Dolan, Graham 664, 605 

Dongegan, Lonnie 872 

Dorn, William 736-738,741,742,744,760 (1)~, 771-774. S12 

Dzazga, Sol 836, 885 

Elias, Sylvan H 863 

Feldman, Sidney 76~5, 835, 855, 884, 889 

Finkelstein, Sidney 615, 623, 672-679 (testimony) 

Flynn, Elizabeth Gurley 789 

Forster, E. M 798 

Fraenkel, Osmond K 725 

Freed, David 735, 736, 766, 769, 826, 827, 835, 855, 8~84, 889 

Frengut, Leon 760 (1-3) 

Friedman, Morton 745 757 

Garroway, Dave ' 692 

Gershman, Paul 760 (1-3) 

Ghignatti, Filippo 774 

Giambalvo, Barney 833 

Gide, Andre 798 

i 



II INDEX 

Page 

Gilbert, Ronnie 872, 875 

Gillis, Don 743, 744 

Ginden, David 765, 884 

Goberman, Max 835,840-850 ( testimony ), 884 

Gold, Miriam 826, 827 

Goldberg, Charles 690 

Gollobin, Ira ._ 867 

Graeler, Louis 735, 770-774 (testimony) 

Granick, Arthur 760 (1-3) 

Grossman, F. Carl 699 

Hagler, Mildred 636, 712-716 (testimony) 

Harmon, John H 615 

Harris, Robert 615 

Hays, Lee 668, 872 

Hellerman, Fred 871-875 (testimony) 

Hoff, Sol 836 

Holbert, Maurine (previously known as Maurine Kennedy)- 685-689 (testimony) 

Hollander, Max 734, 735, 753-757 (testimony) 

Hollister, Carroll 626, 828, 885 

Hunkins, Sterling 735, 766, 820-822 (testimony), 883 

Imbergamo, John 632, 867-869 (testimony) 

Jaffe, Joe 668 

Jerome, V. J 707 

Johnson, Oakley C 794-809 (testimony) 

Jones, Earl 761 

Jones, Elayne (Mrs. Kaufman) 733, 734, 745-749 (testimony), 774 

Jordan, James Racey 859, 860 

Jurist, Simeon 854-861 (testimony), 886 

Kaufman, Elayne. {See Jones, Elayne.) 

Kaufman, Mary M 794 

Kennedy, Maurine. (See Holbert, Maurine.) 

Koukly, George 735, 761, 763-765, 827, 835, 855, 887-880 (testimony), 883, 889 

Kraft, Celia 801 

LaMelle, Mazie 615 

Lautner, John 650 (testimony) ; 651, 800 (testimony) 

Lev, Ray 626 

Levittan, Seymour 766,833-840 (testimony), 840 

Licari, Joseph 833 

Lieberman, Ernie 668 

London, Ephraim 682. 753, 810. 817 

Marlin, Max 762-770 (testimony), 821, 823, 825, 828 

Mehegan, John P 626, 690-601 ^testimony) 

Metz, Anita Short 864 

Minor, Marcia 620, 621 

Modiano, Albert 76.3, 76.->, 827. 883, 889 

Morgenstern, Sam 740-752 (testimony) 

Needlemanu, Isidore G 685, 705, 712, 713, 775, 831, 877 

Neruda, Pablo 677 

Neuberger, Samuel 861 

Penn, Robert 752 

Pollikoff, Max 682-685 (testiinony) ; 734 

Popper, Lilly 613-628 (testimony) ; 634-636, 644, 713, 723, 796, 806, 807 

Popper, Martin 776, 871 

Prestes, Luiz Carlos 656 

Pyle, Thelma 615, 626, 636. 703-705 (testimony) ; 712 

Raim, Walter (born Walter Yudomin) 681-682 (testimony) 

Reid, Robert 836 

Riegger, Wallingford 614, 647-6.58 (testimony) 

Rivkin, Vivian 775-776 (testimony) 

Robeson, Paxil 645, 686, 709, 758, 760, 779 

Robinson, Earl 776-793 (testimony) ; 887 

Rosova, Gita 6.33, 636, 866-867 (testimony) 

Ross, Paul L 840 

Rossitto, Vincent 833 

Rotenberg, June 6.32, 850-853 (testimony) 

Roth. Mildred 613, 641, 672, 602, 703. 866 



INDEX iii 

Page 

Rudy, Gerald 032, 766, 884 

Rushkin, Jascha 760 (1-3) 

Ruthenberg, Charles Emil 802 

Sacher, Harry 793, 680, 681 

Said, Ted 864 

Saidenberg, Eleanor (Mrs. Theodore Saidenberg) 865 

Saidenberg, Theodore 863-866 (testimony) 

Sanders, Betty 668 

Scheiner, Frank 716 

Schneider, Jerry 633 

Schneider, Sam 632, 885 

Schumacher, Joachim 620 

Schwartz, Frank 633, 716-724 ( testimony ) 

Scialo, Andrea 832 

Seeger, Peter 668, 872 

Shnlman, Alan 760 (1-3)^ 

Simon, David 615 

Sklar, Philip 747,760 (1-3) 

Smyles, Harry M 615, 623, 626, 692-701 (testimony) ; 734 

Sobell, ' Morton 788 

Solomon, Jesse 821, 823, 836, 847, 854, 862, 880-890 (testimony) 

Steinberg, Ben 626, 736 

Sterne, Robert 765 

Stone, David 859 

Strong, Anna Louise 802 

Thomas, John Charles 885 

Tisliava, Valerie 743 

Toscanini, Arturo 725, 734, 760 (1-3) 

Travis, Maurice 664, 665 

Turkischer, Arthur 827, 885 

Wallach, Lucy ( See Brown, Lucy. ) 

Walter, David 725-745 (testimony) ; 760 (1-3), 772, 774, 882, 883 

Walters, Albert Edward (Tiny) 764, 765, 824-829 (testimony) ; 883 

Whitman, Alden 716 

Williams, Alex 760 (1-3) 

Winter, Paul 817-820 (testimony) 

Taffe, Richard 615 

Yudomin, Walter. ( See Raim, Walter. ) 

Zlotnick, Henry 626, 680-681 (testimony) 

ORGANIZATIONS 

American Composers Alliance 654 

American Labor Party 868 

American League Against War and Facism, Chicago Committee 823 

American National Theater and Academy 728 

American Society for Russian Relief, Inc 861 

Bronx Committee to Secure Justice for Morton Sobell in the Rosenberg 

Case 788 

Camp Unity 747, 748 

Civil Rights Congress, Louisiana 805 

Committee to Defend V. J. Jerome 707 

Communist Party, USA : 

Los Angeles, Northwest Section, Branch O 864 

New York City : 

Cell within Local 802 (American Federation of Musicians) 629, 

630, 632, 633, 639, 704-766, 768, 834-836, 839, 881 

Cultural Division 668 

Music Section 665, 668 

West Side 651 

Downtown Music School 613, 615 

Harlem Unity Theatre 686 

Hurok Enterprises 878, 879 

International Society for Contemporary Music, American Chapter _ 655 

International Telecommunications Union 855, 856 



iv INDEX 

Page 

International Union of Revolutionary Writers 799 

Jefferson School of Social Science 673 

Jewish People's Fraternal Order 629 

Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee 668 

Metropolitan Music School 611-890 

Citizens Committee 645, 659 

Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers, International Union of 664 

Moscow State Pedagogical Institute of Foreign Languages 796, 801 

Musicians, American Federation of, AFL, Local 802 629, 

639, 697, 763, 765, 766, 825, 827, 838, 879, 884 

National Broadcasting Company 725, 734, 818 

National Council of the Arts, Sciences and Professions 845 

Neighborhood Music School 614, 623, 645, 680, 681, 793 

New Amsterdam Musical Association 882 

Pan-American Composers Union 651 

People's Artists, Inc 668, 709 

People's Radio Foundation 819, 846 

People's Songs 625, 660, 777, 785 

Prompt Press 624 

Soviet Government, Purchasing Commission 860 

Symphony Foundation of America, Inc 730, 735, 760 (1-3), 774 

Symphony of the Air 725, 727-731, 734-736, 

740, 747, 753, 760 (1-3) , 770-774, 810, 814, 878 

United Freedom Fund 760 

United Nations 855, 857 

United States Government : 

House of Representatives, United States, Rooney Subcommittee of the 

Committee on Appropriations 729, 730 

State Department 730, 741 

United States Information Service 728 

Weavers, The 872, 873 

Workers Bookshop 786 

Workers School, New York City 796 

Philadelphia 797 

WQXR (Radio Station, New York City) 619 

PUBLICATIONS 

America Sings (booklet) 786,791,792 

Gol-dern Red, The (song) 660, 661 

Hanns Eisler Songs 751, 752 

International Literature 799 

It's My Union (song) 664 

Life Magazine (March 11, 1957) 695. 696 

Metro-Tones 623 

New Counterattack 616 

New York Times 618, 619 

Quiet Man From Kansas, The 777 

Today (television program) 692 

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