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Full text of "Investigation of communist activities in the Pacific Northwest area. Hearings"

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INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 
PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA— Part 4 (SEATTLE) 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 



JUNE 14 AND 15, 1954 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 



INCLUDING INDEX 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
48069 WASHINGTON : 1954 



>JUA 4 



>n Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

OCT 2 7 1954 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 

United States House of Representatives 
HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois, Chairman 



BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York 
DONALD L. JACKSON, California 
KIT CLARDY, Michigan 
GORDON H. SCHERER, Ohio 



FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania 
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri 
CLYDE DOYLE, California 
JAMES B. FRAZIER, Jr., Tennessee 
Robert L. Kunzig, Counsel 
Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel 
Thomas W. Beale, Sr., Chief Clerk 
Raphael I. Nixon, Director of Research 
Courtney E. Owens, Chief Investigator 



CONTENTS 



June 14. 1954, testimony of — Page 

Carl Harvey Jackins 6235 

Will H. Parry 6249 

Eugene V. Dennett 6256 

June 15, 1954, testimony of — 

Melvin W. Kirkwood 6275 

Jerry William Tyler 6291 

Theodore Raymond Astley 6295 

Margaret Jean Irving 6300 

Marion Kinney 6302 

Richard Leon Nelson 6308 

Margaret Jean Schuddakopf 6310 

Robert T. Camozzi 6311 

Edward Friel 6316 

Index i 

in 



Public Law 601, 79th Congress 

The legislation under which the House Committee on Un-American 
Activities operates is Public Law 601, 79th Congress [1946], chapter 
753, 2d session, which provides : 

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States 
of America in Congress assembled, * * * 

PART 2— RULES OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

Rule X 

SEC. 121. STANDING COMMITTEES 
******* 

17. Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. 

Rule XI 

POWEES AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 
* ****** 

(q) (1) Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(A) Un-American activities. 

(2) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommit- 
tee, is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, 
character, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United 
States (ii) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-Amer- 
ican propaganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin 
and attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Con- 
stitution, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such in- 
vestigation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such 
times and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, 
has recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance 
of such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the 
signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by any such chairman, and may be served by any person 
designated by any such chairman or member. 









RULES ADOPTED BY THE 83d CONGRESS 

House Resolution 5, January 3, 1953 
******* 

RuleX 

standing committees 

1. There shall be elected by the House, at the commencement of each Congress, 
the following standing committees: 

******* 

(q) Committee on Un-American Activities, to consist of nine members. 

******* 

Rule XI 

POWERS AND DUTIES OF COMMITTEES 
******* 

17. Committee on Un-American Activities. 

(a) Un-American activities. 

(b) The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, 
is authorized to make, from time to time, investigations of (1) the extent, char- 
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, 
(2) the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa- 
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a "domestic origin and 
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu- 
tion, and (3) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress 
in any necessary remedial legislation. 

The Committee on Un-American Activities shall report to the House (or to the 
Clerk of the House if the House is not in session) the results of any such investi- 
gation, together with such recommendations as it deems advisable. 

For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such times 
and places within the United States, whether or not the House is sitting, has 
recessed, or has adjourned, to hold such hearings, to require the attendance of 
such witnesses and the production of such books, papers, and documents, and 
to take such testimony, as it deems necessary. Subpenas may be issued under 
the signature of the chairman of the committee or any subcommittee, or by any 
member designated by such chairman, and may be served by any person desig- 
nated by any such chairman or member. 

VI 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 
PACIFIC NOETHWEST AKEA— Part 4 (SEATTLE) 



MONDAY, JUNE 14, 1954 

United States House of Representatives, 

Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Seattle, Wash. 

PUBLIC hearing 

AFTERNOON SESSION 1 

The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to recess, 
at 2 : 07 p. m., in room 402, County-City Building, Seattle, Wash., Hon. 
Harold H. Velde (chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde 
(chairman), Donald L. Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, 
Clyde Doyle, and James B. Frazier, Jr. 

Staff members present : Robert L. Kunzig, counsel ; Frank S. Taven- 
ner, Jr., counsel; William A. Wheeler, investigator; and Thomas W. 
Beale, Sr., chief clerk. 

Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order, please. 

Before commencing this afternoon's hearings, I should like to 
acknowledge a gift from Commissioner William Sears of these lovely 
carnations which grace our desk here. They add a little beauty to the 
hearing room and are very much appreciated. 

We are also very much appreciative, as I said before, of the help 
that has been given to us by the city of Seattle, especially by Detective 
John Hoberg and Officer Charles Seely of the Seattle Police Depart- 
ment who have been very kind to us in seeing that we get where we 
should at the proper time and on time. 

Mr. Counsel, are you ready to proceed ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir. 

I would like to call as the first witness Mr. Carl Harvey Jackins. 
Will Mr. Jackins come forward, please ? 

TESTIMONY OF CARL HARVEY JACKINS, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, JOHN CAUGHLAN 

Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand, Mr. Jackins ? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this committee 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 



1 During the morning session, testimony of Barbara Hartle was heard, which is printed 
in pt. 2 of these hearings. 

6235 



6236 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackins. I do. 

Mr. Velde. You may be seated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel identify himself for the record, please ? 

Mr. Caughlan. Yes. I am John Caughlan, attorney and member 
of the Washington State bar. 

Do you want my address ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Caughlan. 702 Lowraan Building, Seattle. 

Could I make an inquiry ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Caughlan. In case I care to confer with Mr. Jackins or Mr. 
Jackins cares to confer with me, what is the situation as far as these 
microphones are concerned ? Is our confidential conference going to 
be broadcast over it ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I think if you conduct your conversation discreetly, 
it will not be heard on the magnifying system. Otherwise you may 
move back a little. 

I have just been told that if you give a signal it will be cut off com- 
pletely, so you will be running no risk whatever. 

Mr. Clardy. I think, Mr. Chairman, that it would be well to let 
the record show that the committee has asked those in charge of the 
radio and television to cut the volume down if they want to confer. 

Mr. Velde. Yes ; the record will so show. 

Our committee rules, of course, provide that the witness shall have 
ample opportunity to confer with his counsel in private, and I want 
to caution those in charge of the broadcast here, both radio and tele- 
vision, that anything that comes out on the air between the counsel 
and the witness will be certainly objectionable to the committee's pro- 
cedure. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. May I emphasize this point ? I am sure that the com- 
mittee would agree that if counsel feels that he is not far enough re- 
moved from the microphones when he is conferring with his client, 
the committee would want him to remove himself far enough away 
from the microphones so that he feels comfortable in his consultation 
with his client. 

Mr. Velde. Certainly, and that permission will be granted. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Jackins. Harvey Jackins. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you spell your last name, please ? 

Mr. Jackins. Certainly. J-a-c-k-i-n-s. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Jackins ? 

Mr. Jackins. I was born June 28, 1916, in northern Idaho. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Jackins. In the city of Seattle, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in the city of Seattle ? 

Mr. Jackins. A number of years, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Approximately how long ? 

Mr. Jackins. Approximately 20. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your 
educational training has been, that is, your formal educational train- 
ing? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6237 

Mr. Jackins. I think so. I have been to grade school ; I have been 
to high school ; I have been to college. 

Mr. Tavenner. How many years have you had in college ? 

Mr. Jackins. Somewhat less than 4 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. At what institution ? 

Mr. Jackins. At the University of Washington. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you complete your training at the Uni- 
versity of Washington, in what year ? 

Mr. Jackins. I have not completed my training at the University 
of Washington. . 

Mr. Tavenner. At what time did you stop your work at the uni- 
versity of Washington? . . 

Mr. Jackins. The last work that I took at the University of Wash- 
ington, I believe, would be around 1950. 

Mr. Tavenner. How many years had you been m attendance at 
that university immediately prior to 1950 ? In other words, was there 
a gap in your attendance at the University of Washington ? 

Mr. Jackins. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Of a period of years ? 

Mr. Jackins. Yes, there was. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you explain it briefly to us ? 

Mr. Jackins. Well, to the best of my recollection, I took no class 
work at the University of Washington between the years of 1937, or 
thereabouts, and around 1950. , 

Mr. Tavenner. Were vou in the Armed Forces at any time between 
1937 and 1950? 

Mr. Jackins. I would like to confer with counsel, sir. 

Mr. Velde. You will have that opportunity. 

(At this point Mr. Jackins conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Velde. I can hear you conferring. I would suggest that you 
move farther back from the microphone. 

Mr. Jackins. It is not necessary. . 

Mr. Velde. All right. Proceed. Answer the question, please. 

Mr. Jackins. Would you repeat it? _ 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve in the Armed Forces o± the United 
States at any time during the period 1937-50 ? 

Mr. Jackins. I did not. . 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, briefly, what 
your employment record has been since 1935 ? 

Mr. Jackins. Well, because of the character of this committee and 
the nature of these hearings, I must decline to answer that question, 
claiming my privilege under the fifth amendment to the Constitution 
not to bear witness in any attempt on the part of this committee to 
involve me. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. I ask that he be directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Velde. Certainly. That is a very simple question and the 
Chair sees no way in which it can incriminate you to answer it whatso- 
ever. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Jackins. "What the Chair sees and what might be the facts in 
the situation are not necessarily the same, Mr. Chairman. I have 
declined to answer, invoking my privilege under the fifth amendment 

48069— 54— pt. 4 2 



6238 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

not to bear witness against myself in any attempt on the part of this 
committee, considering these circumstances, to involve me. 

Mr. Velde. And upon further consideration, you still invoke the 
fifth amendment, upon the Chair's direction that you answer the ques- 
tion ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Jackins. I have been informed by counsel that if I were to 
give testimony before this committee which would be at variance with 
witnesses who have appeared before this committee, seeking to curry 
the favor of the committee because of prison sentences hanging over 
their head, that regardless of the obvious lack of integrity of such 
witnesses I would still be subjected to possible charges of perjury. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Witness, the testimony of the previous witness has 
nothing to do with your testimony. 

Mr. Jackins. It has a great deal to do with the situation. 

Mr. Velde. Will you answer the question? Or do you refuse to 
answer ? 

Mr. Jackins. I have answered very clearly. I declined to answer 
that question under my privileges guaranteed under the fifth amend- 
ment not to bear witness against myself in any attempt on the part 
of this committee, considering the circumstances, to involve me. 

Mr. Velde. And upon direction by the Chair to answer the ques- 
tion as to your previous employment, you still refuse to answer upon 
the grounds of the fifth amendment ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Jackins. I have answered that very clearly, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. How do you mean that — that you answered it very 
clearly? By refusing to answer? Can you tell me of one way in 
which giving us the benefit of your previous employment can possibly 
incriminate you ? 

Mr. Jackins. Under other circumstances, Mr. Chairman, I would 
be very glad to discuss those questions, with you or with anyone else, 
but. under the conditions of this hearing and the character of this 
committee I must decline to answer that question as well, invoking 
my privilege under the fifth amendment not to bear witness against 
myself. 

Mr. Velde. Very well. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. How are you now employed, Mr. Jackins ? 

Mr. Jackins. I am employed as a personal counsellor. 

Mr. Tavenner. In what type of business ? 

Mr. Jackins. In the field of professional personal counseling. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so employed ? 

(At this point Mr. Jackins conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Jackins. Three and a half years, approximately. 

Mr. Tavenner. That would take you back to 1950 or 1951, approxi- 
mately, would it not ? 

Mr. Jackins. Approximately. 

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed in 1948 ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the character of this committee and the 
nature of these hearings, I must decline to answer that question, claim- 
ing my privilege under the fifth amendment not to bear witness 
against myself in any attempt to involve me. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you hold an official position in 1948 or at any 
time prior thereto in Local 46 of the International Brotherhood of 
Electrical Workers? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6239 

Mr. Jackins. Under other circumstances, I would be glad to discusa 
that, but considering the nature of this committee and the character 
of these hearings I must decline to answer that question, claiming my 
privilege under the fifth amendment to the Constitution not to bear 
witness against myself in any attempt to involve me. 

Mr. Velde. May I ask the witness this question ? 

Under what other circumstances would you be willing to answer that 
question ? 

Mr. Jackins. Under conditions otherwise than before this com- 
mittee, Mr. Chairman. I would be glad to discuss the entire issue with 
you publicly. 

Mr. Velde. To whom would you give an answer to that question 
other than to members of this committee ? 

(At this point Mr. Jackins conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Jackins. Mr. Chairman, I would be glad to discuss these issues 
with you, say, in public debate, in a public discussion before a 
friendly — before an audience or before the general public. The actions 
of this committee in presenting testimony 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackins. From thoroughly discredited people and people with- 
out integrity this morning has left me with no choice but to decline to 
answer that. 

Mr. Clardy. Regular order, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Regular order is ordered. 

Would you go under oath before me and discuss this question as to 
your employment — on any matters involving your connection with 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Chairman, that he has volunteered 

Mr. Velde. Just a moment, Mr. Doyle. 

May I ask if he will answer this question, please ? 

Mr. Jackins. In your present capacity, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. Velde. Yes ; in my present capacity, naturally. 

Mr. Jackins. My answer would be the same as I have made. 

Mr. Clardy. May I suggest something, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. Velde. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan. 

Mr. Clardy. May I point out that since he has indicated a willing- 
ness to answer these questions before other people, he has waived any 
protection that he might claim under the fifth amendment, and I ask 
that he be directed to answer that last question. 

Mr. Velde. Yes ; I think the gentleman from Michigan is absolutely 
right. 

You are directed to answer the last question. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. So that the record may be complete at this point I 
want to make this observation, so that we will not overlook it. When 
he has stated that he is willing to answer that question under certain 
other circumstances or to other people, it is obvious that any claim that 
there is any protection afforded him by the fifth amendment is false, 
because if he is willing to state it to others then there can be no pos- 
sibility of it incriminating him. 

Mr. Velde. I am usually entirely in agreement with the gentleman 
from Michigan, but I believe that he has not stated that he would 
answer if he were under oath at the present time. 



6240 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Clardy. I do believe there is a distinction, Mr. Chairman, and 
his statement that he is willing to answer it indicates that there can 
be no incrimination, because if he gives testimony somewhere else 
under oath or otherwise, he has at least touched upon the subject of 
which he is now apprehensive — if he has any such apprehension — and 
that, obviously, removes any possibility of claiming the fifth amend- 
ment in good faith. And I am sure that he is not claiming it in good 
faith but is attempting merely to filibuster and follow the usual Com- 
munist Party line. 

Mr. Velde. Witness, if we engaged in public debate or if we engaged 
in a private session, where you came before me personally, would you 
answer the question that has been put to you about your employment, 
under oath? 

Mr. Jackins. Are you asking that again ? 

Mr. Velde. Yes. Do you understand the questi on that has been pro- 
pounded, Witness ? 

Mr. Jackins. In the byplay here, I have lost track of where we are. 
If you would care to present the situation again 

Mr. Velde. You have been directed to answer the question as to 
whether or not in a session with me, in my capacity, whether it be 
public or private, you would answer the question as to your previous 
employment, under oath — the oath, of course, to be administered by 
me? 

Mr. Jackins. Might I ask you a question ? Is a hypothetical ques- 
tion such as that proper at this point ? 

Mr. Velde. If you will answer that question, instead of refusing to 
answer under the grounds of the fifth amendment, then perhaps we 
might consider the question properly. 

Mr. Jackins. It seems to me that to give you an answer to that 
would only be to express an opinion. If it is your desire that I express 
an opinion about it, I will. 

Mr. Jackson. Regular order, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Regular order. 

Mr. Jackson. It is quite obvious that the witness has no intention 
of answering any questions which have to do with his alleged mem- 
bership in the Communist Party, and I think it is a waste of time to 
pursue it any further. As far as I am concerned you can ask him the 
question now and excuse him. 

Mr. Velde. Very well. The observation of the gentleman from 
California is very astute and wise. 

Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the character of this committee and the 
nature of these hearings, I decline to answer that question, claiming 
my privilege under the fifth amendment to the Constitution not to bear 
witness against myself in any attempt on the part of this committee 
to involve me. 

Mr. Velde. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering again the character of these hearings and 
the nature of this committee, I decline to answer that question, claim- 
ing my privilege under the fifth amendment to the Constitution not to 
bear witness against myself in any attempt to involve me. 

Mr. Velde. Proceed with your questions, counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, it was my intent to inquire of this 
witness as to what knowledge he had regarding Communist Party 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6241 

activities in connection with unions of which he was a member or had 
official positions with, but the witness has refused to answer that he 
was even a member of the first union that I mentioned. 

I think, however, that having asked that question. I should follow 
it up, even if I do not pursue the others. 

Mr. Yelde. You may proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now were you expelled from local 46 of the Inter- 
national Brotherhood of Electrical Workers in 1948? 

(At this point Mr. Jackins conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the character of this committee and the 
nature of these hearings, I must decline to answer that question, in- 
voking my privileges under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Clardt. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he be directed to answer 
that question. 

Mr. Yelde. Certainly. You are directed to answer that question. 
The Chair can see no reason why the answer to such a question should 
incriminate you in any way. 

You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Jackins. What the Chair can see, in the actual situation, need 
have no meeting ground at all, and again I repeat, considering the char- 
acter of this committee and the nature of these hearings, I must decline 
to answer that question, claiming my privileges under the fifth amend- 
ment not to bear witness against myself in any attempt on the part 
of this committee to involve me. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you also expelled as business agent of the 
Building Service Employees' Union some time prior to 1948 ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the character of this committee and the 
nature of these hearings, I must decline to answer that question, in- 
voking my privileges under the fifth amendment to the Constitution 
not to bear witness against myself in any attempt on the part of this 
committee to involve me. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. May I suggest that the witness be directed to answer 
that question? 

Mr. Velde. Again, without objection, 3 7 ou are directed to answer 
that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you expelled from lodge 751 

Mr. Velde. Just a minute, counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Excuse me, sir. 

Mr. Jackins. Where are we now ? 

Mr. Velde. Again you are directed to answer ihe last question. 
Again the Chair and the members of the committee see no reason why 
you could possibly be incriminated by an answer to that question. 

You are directed to answer the last question. 

Mr. Jackins. The same answer as I gave to the previous question 
for the reasons that I previously stated. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you at any time expelled from lodge 751 of 
the Aero Mechanics' Union? 

Mr. Jackins. The same answer which I gave to the previous ques- 
tions and for the reasons which I stated. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. I ask that he be directed to answer. 



6242 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Velde. Again you are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the character of this committee and the 
nature of these hearings, I decline to answer, invoking my privileges 
under the fifth amendment of the Constitution not to bear witness 
against myself in any attempt on the part of this committee to in- 
volve me. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. Witness, isn't it a fact that you were expelled from all 
three of these unions because of your Communist Party activities 
within the unions ? Isn't that a fact ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the nature of this committee and the 
character of these hearings, I must decline to answer that question 
and for the same reasons. 

Mr. Scherer. Were you on the Communist Party payroll ? 

Mr. Jackins. The same answer as to the previous question and for 
the same reasons. 

Mr. Scherer. Isn't it a fact that you have refused to answer the 
question as to your previous employment because you were on the pay- 
roll of the Communist Party in this country during those years ? 

(At this point Mr. Jackins conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Jackins. The use of my privileges under the fifth amendment 
does not in any sense imply that any of your statements are fact. I 
am invoking my privileges and declining to answer that question 
under the fifth amendment in order not to bear witness against myself 
in any attempt on the part of this committee to involve me. 

Mr. Scherer. Witness, tell me what part of the statements I have 
just made are false then ? 

Mr. Jackins. I decline to answer that question and for the same 
reasons. 

Mr. Scherer. I thought you would. 

Mr. Jackins. You were correct. 

Mr. Clardy. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. Was there any reason, other than that cited by Mr. 
Scherer, for your expulsion from those three unions ? 

Mr. Jackins. Well, again I would like to draw your attention to 
the fact that the use of the fifth amendment and my privileges under 
the fifth amendment does not construe any guilt on my part or the 
accuracy of any of the statements made by members of this committee. 

I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated. 

Mr. Clardy. Did you ever engage in any espionage activities ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the character of this committee and the 
nature of these hearings, I must decline to answer, invoking my privi- 
leges under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Clardy. Then you won't even answer a question as to whether 
or not you have engaged in any espionage activities ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the nature of this committee and the 
character of these hearings, I must decline to answer, invoking my 
privileges under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Jackson. Would a true answer to the question as to whether 
or not you have ever engaged in espionage activities tend to incrimi- 
nate you ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6243 

Mr. Jackins. To use the fifth amendment and my privileges under 
it does not in any way imply incrimination. 

Mr. Jackson. We understand the provisions of the fifth amendment 
very well. 

The question is, "Would a truthful answer to the question of whether 
or not you have ever committed espionage tend to incriminate you?" 

Mr. Jackins. Because of the nature of this committee and the char- 
acter of these hearings, I must decline to answer that question, invok- 
ing my privileges under the fifth amendment not to bear witness 
against myself in any attempt of this committee to involve me. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California, 
Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. My question does not involve the Communist Party. 

I noticed that you said that between 1937 and 1950 you did not ren- 
der any military service to your own United States Government. Were 
you excused during those years for any reason from military service, 
or why didn't you serve ? Would that incriminate you, too, if you told 
the truth in that regard ? 

Mr. Jackins. Mr. Congressman, I feel that you are trying to bait 
me on that, but I will try to answer it, if you wish. 

Mr. Doyle. I asked it in the hope that }*ou would answer it. 

Mr. Jackins. The technical reasons' involved in my being excused 
from military service, I assume you would have to refer to the draft 
boards to get down accurately. To the best of my knowledge, I was 
excused from military service during those years for three reasons, 
in series : the first a question of health — that my service was postponed 
for a year because of a physical examination which turned up certain 
health conditions of which I was not previously aware; that again 
my service in the Armed Forces was deferred because of a critical 
emergency involving the repair of fighting ships, where my skill was 
badly needed at the particular time ; and, finally, I was deferred be- 
cause I was regarded as too old at the expiration of that period. 

Mr. Doyle. What draft board excused you for each or any of those 
reasons ? 

You have your draft card in your pocket, haven't you ? 

Mr. Jackins. I am unable to give you that information at this time. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you have your draft card in your pocket? If you 
don't, I submit that you ought to have it. 

Mr. Jackins. I would have to search through my wallet to see 
whether I have it with me or not. I have no notion. 

Mr. Doyle. What was the number of your draft board and where 
was it? 

Mr. Jackins. I don't remember it — not at this time. 

Mr. Doyle. What city was it in ? 

Mr. Jackins. It was in Seattle. 

Mr. Doyle. Under what name did you register for military service ? 

Mr. Jackins. Under the name which I have given this committee. 

Mr. Doyle. How old were you when you registered ? 

Mr. Jackins. If you can refresh my memory as to the date of the 
first draft registration, I can tell you. 

Mr. Doyle. You don't remember ? 

Mr. Jackins. It would be not necessarily accurate. 

Mr. Doyle. Approximately. 



6244 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackins. I am told that the first draft registration was m 
October of 1940. 

Mr. Jackins. I would be at that time then approximately 24 years 
of age. 

Mr. Doyle. May I ask one more question, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. Every time you pleaded the fifth amendment, I noticed 
you said "because of the character of this committee." I don't know 
whether you have a speech ready to make or not — I presume you do — 
but this committee is composed of Members of your United States 
Congress. Now do I understand that, because we are Members of the 
United States Congress and a committee of your Congress, there is 
something about the character of this committee that you have no 
respect for or trust in or confidence in ? Is that your answer ? 

I assume that that is the basis of your answer. You say "because of 
the character of this committee," and each one of us is a Member of 
your United States Congress, comprising a sort of cross-section of 
the United States Congress, so I assume when you use that language 
time after time that you are objecting to your United States Congress 
functioning as we have been authorized to function by the Congress. 

Mr. Jackins. Mr. Congressman ■ 

Mr. Doyle. Is that correct ? 

Mr. Jackins. I think there is a considerable difference between re- 
spect for an office and respect for the uses to which it is sometimes put. 

Mr. Doyle. Of course the Congress, your Congress, created this 
committee. 

Mr. Clardy. I think you ought to point out that t-he members were 
elected unanimously by the Congress to this committee. > 

Mr. Velde. Not only that, but we should also remind the witness 
that in this last session of Congress, when our appropriations came 
up before the Congress, they were approved with only one dissenting 
vote. So that this is a representative body of the people of the United 
States, who elected the Congress. 

Mr. Jackins. Which would not, in itself, establish the character 
of this committee nor the role which it plays. 

Mr. Jackson. The character of this committee and the role which 
it plays had been established long before the vote to which the chair- 
man refers. In other words, sir, 362 to 1 means that the people of 
the United States are speaking through their Congress, through this 
committee, asking people like you to cooperate with the committee, 
giving us the benefit, giving the Congress the benefit, and giving the 
American people the benefit of anything you may know about the 
Communist conspiracy. That you nave failed to do completely, and 
mere words about the character and the motives of this committee 
isn't going to change the fact that the American people have elected 
their Congress which in turn established this committee. 

Mr. Jackins. Nor would it necessarily indicate the judgment of 
the people on the work of this committee. 

Mr. Jackson. The judgment of the people has already been passed 
in their vote of their elected representatives. 

Mr. Jackins. It will be passed again. 

Mr. Jackson. It will be passed again comes the revolution ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6245 

Mr. Jackins. I believe that the judgment of the people on com- 
mittees such as this is being passed, in a large measure, by them being 
shown to television audiences throughout the country. 

Mr. Jackson. We are talking about this committee, sir, and not 
any other committee, and the work of this committee will be reflected 
in the response and the reactions we receive from the people of Seattle 
and the Northwest area which, if it follows the course of other reac- 
tions, will be overwhelmingly favorable. 

Mr. Jackins. If Mr. Doyle has an honest question as to why I 

raised that question, I think I can 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, the witness has no business insulting 
Mr. Doyle or the Congress by using the language that he has, and I 
ask that it be stricken. 

Mr. Jackins. I meant no insult to Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Velde. I am sure that Mr. Doyle would not ask any dishonest 
question whatsoever. 

Do you want to repeat the question, Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I think the witness remembers my question quite clearly. 
I am sure he remembers it. 

I don't think, in view of your heavy load of witnesses, that I care 
to take more time. 

Mr. Jackins. Mr. Doyle 

Mr. Doyle. May I say this to you, though, young man ? I am very 
much disappointed in you that, as a young American, you take the 
position you do. You evidently have leadership ability; you have 
evidently been a leader in labor; you evidently have been blessed by 
your country, and I hope that you will reverse your opinion. 

Mr. Jackins. You need not be disappointed in me, sir, and I think 
I could easily explain to you why, but not under conditions such as 
this. 
Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson. 

Mr. Jackson. We have already taken up, I understand, 40 minutes 
of time with this witness, with many witnesses still to be heard. I 
would very respectfully suggest the regular order. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair certainly concurs with the gentleman from 
California. 

Mr. Counsel, do you have any further questions to ask of this 
witness? 
Mr. Tavenner. May I ask the witness one further question? 
Mr. Velde. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. I think I should advise the witness that there has 
been heard in executive session before this committee the witness 
Elizabeth Boggs Cohen and the witness Leonard Basil Wildman, both 
of whom were heard on May 28, 1954, and both of whom identified 
you as at one time having been an active member of the Communist 
Party, Mr. Wildman having identified you as the organizer of a branch 
of the Communist Party while you were in attendance at the Uni- 
versity of Washington. 

This is your opportunity, if you desire to take advantage of it, of 
denying those statements, if there is anything about them which is 
untrue. 

Mr. Jackins. Is that a question ? 

48069— 54— pt. 4 -3 



6246 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Do you desire to deny any part of that 
identification ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the character of this committee and the 
nature of these hearings, I must decline to answer that question, call- 
ing upon my privileges under the fifth amendment to not bear witness 
against myself in any attempts of this committee to involve me. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Jackins. The same answer as before for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson ? 

Mr. Jackson. No questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy ? 

Mr. Clardy. Witness, you told us that at present you were engaged 
in an occupation that I didn't quite understand. What is it that you 
are doing at the moment ? 

Mr. Jackins. I am engaged in the work of personal counseling. 

Mr. Clardy. What do you mean by personal counseling ? That is 
what I do not understand. 

Mr. Jackins. I work with individuals to help them with their per- 
sonal problems.' 

Mr. Clardy. What kind of personal problems ? 

Mr. Jackins. With their emotional difficulties, with the inhibitions 
which keep them from functioning well as individuals. 

Mr. Clardy. Are you a medical expert or a psychiatrist of some 
kind ? 

Mr. Jackins. Not at all. The approach is quite different than 
either of those fields. 

Mr. Clardy. Do you belong to some profession of some sort that is 
licensed by the State to engage in this kind of activity, or is this some- 
thing that you have invented yourself ? 

I am serious about this. I want to know, because I don't under- 
stand. 

Mr. Jackins. May I have a little latitude in explaining it, sir ? 

Mr. Clardy. I haven't limited you. 

Mr. Jackins. Fine. I am working with a very new approach to 
the problem of individual human beings. We have discovered, a 
group of us, that apparently anything wrong with an individual 
human — any limitation on his ability, his enjoyment of life, his ability 
to be intelligent in any situation — is purely and solely the result of 
the experiences of hurt which he has endured, including emotional 
distress, quite as important as experiences of physical pain ; that any- 
thing less than rational or able about an individual human being can 
be traced as the literal expression of experiences when he has been 
hurt, beginning very early and accumulating, and that it is possible in 
a teamwork relationship for one person's intelligence as a counselor to 
be linked with that of the person who is enduring the difficulty or the 
limitation or the emotional problem — to go back in memory, in effect 
and, by repetitively seeking out these experiences of hurt, discharging 
the stored up painful emotion; and in assisting the person to think 
them through over and over and over again, it is possible to free an 
individual from the inhibiting effects of the distresses which have 
stored up on him during his life. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6247 

Now this is a very exciting field; the possibilities implicit in it — 
and we are pioneering in the group with which I work — are amazing. 
Mr. Clardy. What do you mean by "we" ? Is this something orig- 
inated by the Communist Party as part of its program ? 

Mr. Jackins. Considering the character of the committee and the 
nature of these hearings, I must decline to answer that question, calling 
upon my privileges under the fifth amendment to not bear witness 
against myself in any attempt of this committee to involve me. 
Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I ask that he be directed to answer. 
Mr. Velde. Just a moment, Mr. Clardy. 

May I again direct the physical audience that are present here that 
the committee cannot operate as it should under the duties it has with 
any disturbances of either expressions of approval or disapproval, and 
the chair and the committee would appreciate it if the physical audi- 
ence present would not laugh or make any demonstrations whatso- 
ever, either of disapproval or of approval. 

Mr. Clardy. Now, Mr. Chairman, would you direct him to answer 
the last question? 

Mr. Velde. Will the reporter read the question, please? 
(Question read.) 

Air. Clardy. I ask that he be directed to answer that question. 
Mr. Velde. Yes ; the Chair directs you to answer that question. Is 
it part of the Communist Party program? 

Mr. Jackins. I must decline to answer that question for the reasons 
previously stated. 

Mr. Clardy. Who are the other people, then, when you use thar 
word "we," that are associated with you in this movement? 
(At this point Mr. Jackins conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 
Mr. Jackins. Under the conditions of this hearing and considering 
the nature of the committee, I must decline to answer that question. 
Mr. Clardy. I think I should caution you, Witness, that you do 
not have to decline to answer anything. I am assuming when you say 
you must that you mean you are. Am I correct? 
Mr. Jackins. Certainly 

Mr. Clardy. You have been saying "I must decline." 
Mr. Jackins. For the reasons stated, sir. 

Mr. Clardy. Very well. Are those that you associate with the per- 
sons that have been identified in this proceeding as members of the 
Communist Party? 

Mr. Jackins. I decline to answer the question for the reasons pre- 
viously given. 

Mr. Clardy. Have you ever been a member of any organization 
whose avowed purpose is the overthrow of this Government through 
the use of force and violence? 

Mr. Jackins. Under the conditions of this hearing and considering 
the nature of the committee, I must decline to answer that question, 
invoking my privileges under the fifth amendment not to bear witness 
against myself. 
Mr. Clardy. Very well. One final question. 

Will you give us the names of the persons you are associated with 
in this activity that you have described? 

Mr. Jackins. I must decline to answer for the reasons previously 
given. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I ask that he be directed to answer. 



6248 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Velde. Yes; the chairman directs you to answer that last ques- 
tion. 

Mr. Jackins. I decline to answer the question for the reasons pre- 
viously given. 

Mr. Clardy. That is all I have. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. No questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. I have two questions. 

You are the one that volunteered that your present occupation was 
working with a group, and in my book that is a waiver of your privi- 
lege under the fifth amendment. 

But what is the name of the group ? 

(At this point Mr. Jackins conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Jackins. Sir, I believe that the committee has sought to in- 
volve me in a trap on this question. Were I to decline to answer the 
question, certainly it is conceivable that I will be threatened with con- 
tempt charges, but, on the other hand, to answer it would lead to all 
sorts of other involvements, as I have tried to explain previously; so 
that in the circumstances, I have no choice but to decline to answer 
the question, invoking my privileges under the fifth amendment not 
to bear witness against myself. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle, I think you should ask the Chair to direct 
him to answer it, because I think this is clearly beyond the pale. 

Mr. Doyle. I ask that the chairman direct the witness to answer 
that question. 

Mr. Velde. Certainly. There is no possible way that you can in- 
criminate yourself by an answer to that question. 

You are directed to answer the question, Mr. Witness. 

Mr. Jackins. I decline to answer it for the reasons previously 
stated. 

Mr. Doyle. I have two more questions. 

Does this office have an address here in Seattle ? Do you work with 
a group in an office in some building? If so, where is that office? 

Mr. Velde. May I suggest, Mr. Doyle, that you ask one question 
at a time. 

Would you ask him the first question again ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes. 

You volunteered that you were working with a group. Does that 
group have an office in Seattle? 

Mr. Jackins. I work in an office in Seattle. 

Mr. Doyle. Does the group that you referred to have an office, with 
you in that same office that you work in ? 

Mr. Jackins. I decline to answer that question for the reasons pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you have a business card on you, a professional card 
that you use for identification of your work as a professional adviser ? 
If you have, will you please present me with one or present counsel 
with one for identification ? 

Mr. Velde. I respectfully suggest that you ask him whether or not 
he has such a card. 

Mr. Jackins. To my knowledge, I have no card with me. 

Mr. Doyle. If you have one on you, would you please give it to us? 

You carry a business card or a professional card, don't you ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6249 

Why don't you answer honestly on that ? 

Mr. Jackins. I said I do not have one with me, to my knowledge. 

Mr. Doyle. Do you sell your services for a fee, a professional fee? 
Do you collect a fee for the professional advice you give ? 

Mr. Jackins. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Doyle. Is there a membership fee paid to the group that you 
claim to be a member of ? 

Mr. Jackins. I decline to answer that question for the reasons pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier. 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. Velde. Is there any reason why this witness should not be dis- 
missed ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Velde. Very well. The witness is dismissed. 

Mr. Jackins. May I ask, am I dismissed for the duration of these 
hearings ? 

Mr. Velde. You are dismissed. 

Mr. Caughalan. Can he be excused from the hearing room and 
not return at all ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, you are dismissed. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Velde. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Will H. Parry, will you come forward, please? 

TESTIMONY OF WILL H. PARRY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

C. T. HATTEN 

Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand, please ? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this committee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Parry. I do. 

Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

Mr. Parry. My name — and I answer this and all subsequent ques- 
tions under protest — is Will H. Parry, P-a-r-r-y. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel, Mr. Parry? 

Mr. Parry. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. Hatten. C. T. Hatten. I am an attorney in the city of Seattle. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. Before we go any further, what does that say on the 
button the witness has on ? 

Mr. Parry. It says, "Joe must go," sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Parry, when and where were you born ? 

Mr. Parry. I will confer with counsel, sir. 

(At this point Mr. Parry conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. I ask that he be directed to answer that question. 

Mr. Velde. Just a minute. The witness has a right to confer with 
his counsel. 



6250 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Clardy. I appreciate that, but he was asked where he was born 
and I don't think he should be entitled to filibuster, as he is trying to 
do. 

Mr. Velde. Nevertheless, he should be given a reasonable time to 
consult with counsel. 

Mr. Clardy. Counsel wouldn't know that as well as he would. 

Mr. Velde. You know the committee rules, sir. 

Mr. Clardy. I submit sir, I don't think the counsel would know the 
answer to that any better than he would. 

(Upon order of the chairman, gratuitous remarks of witness were 
stricken from the record.) 

Mr. Parry. I will answer the question that I was born on April 
23, 1920. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where ? 

Mr. Parry. In the city of Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you lived in Seattle continuously since 
1940? 

Mr. Parry. I will confer with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Parry conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Parry. I have lived here since 1940, yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now, Mr. Parry, the Committee on Un-American 
Activities has investigated at several places on the west coast the use 
that has been made of the People's World and that is being made of 
the People's World. We have heard testimony in San Francisco on 
that subject, we have heard it in Los Angeles, and we have heard it in 
San Diego. 

In San Diego the committee went particularly into the method of 
raising funds for the issuance of that publication and discovered, 
for instance, that a very substantial loan was made by certain methods 
in that city to enable that paper to function. 

The committee desires now to know what use is being made of that 
publication in the area of Seattle, and it has information indicating 
that you should be able to tell the committee a great deal about that 
paper. In fact, the committee has been advised that you held a posi- 
tion with it here. 

What position, if any, have you held with the People's World ? 

Mr. Parry. I will decline to answer that question on the following 
grounds: First, that to answer in any way that question would be to 
become a party to this committee's unconstitutional investigation 
involving and jeopardizing the freedom of the press, which is pro- 
tected under the first amendment to the Constitution of the United 
States ; and, second, because that question or a chain or series of ques- 
tions opened by that question might cause me to be forced by this com- 
mittee to testify against myself, and therefore I invoke the fifth 
amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, the 
shield of the innocent, sir, in order to be safeguarded from any possi- 
bility that I may be compelled to testify against myself. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson. 

Mr. Jackson. Do I understand the witness to contend that the 
Communist press is part and parcel of the free press ? 

(At this point Mr. Parry confered with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Parry. Is that the question, Mr. Jackson ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6251 

Mr. Jackson. That is the question, as explicit as I can make it, yes. 

Do you consider the Communist press to be a free press? 
(At this point Mr. Parry conferred with Mr. Platten.) 

Mr. Parry. I will confer with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Parry again conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Parry. Mr. Chairman, I will decline to answer that question 
on the grounds that it is very clearly the previous question in a differ- 
ent form and invades the area protected by the first amendment and on 
the further grounds that under the fifth amendment of the Constitu- 
tion of the United States I cannot be compelled to bear witness against 
myself before any congressional committee. 

Mr. Jackson. In stating whether or not the Communist press was a 
free press, I cannot conceive that you could in any way incriminate 
yourself. 

However, for the record I think it should be stated very clearly 
that Mr. David Blodgett, former East Bay correspondent for the Daily 
People's World, testified that the Communist International, the Com- 
munist Party of the United States, the Communist Party State organi- 
zation in the State of California, did everything except dot the I's and 
cross the T's as far as the Communist Daily People's World was con- 
cerned ; that the reporters on that paper were told what to write and 
how to write and, if they didn't write the way they were told, every- 
thing was blue-penciled out. That is not my concept of a free press 
in a free land. 

However, you are entitled to your own opinion, if you so believe. 

Mr. Parry. It is freer than the Hearst press, I bet. 

Mr. Jackson. That, of course, is open to question. I don't think 
that the Communist is free in any sense of the word and, obviously, 
its sole purpose in existing is to hand down through the party organi- 
zation the directives of the Communist International, so that they may 
know from day to day what right-angle turn has just been taken. 

Mr. Velde. I want to concur with the gentleman from California in 
that. We have had a great deal of testimony as to how the party line 
was handed down from Soviet Russia to the American Communist 
Party and the Communist parties throughout the world. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I make an observation ? 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. The witness made a statement about the Hearst news- 
papers that I don't think I am going to let go unchallenged. It is per- 
fectly obvious that this witness, along with other members of the 
Communist Party, has a 

Mr. Parry. Are you accusing me, sir ? 

Mr. Clardy. Will you please subside? I am not asking you any 
question at all ; I am telling you something. 

I repeat, it is perfectly obvious that this witness, along with other 
members of the Communist Party, hates the Hearst newspapers be- 
cause they have dedicated themselves to the task of routing out people 
like himself and others who belong to a conspiracy seeking to destroy 
everything we hold dear. 

I can understand full well why you let your spleen and your hatred 
be vented in what you said, not in answer to a question, but merely 
in an effort to get across to the audience here the fact that you don't 
like that newspaper chain. I happen to like it, because I think they 



6252 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

are doing an excellent job that ought to be done by every newspaper in 
the United States. 

And you said something else. You said the fifth amendment was 
the shield of the innocent. Well, the greatest shield that the innocent 
have is the truth ; and if the Communists who appear here, like your- 
self, would use the shield of truth, they would be in no danger what- 
ever. It is only when they use the tactics that you are using and that 
the other witnesses are using that you endanger yourself, as indeed 
you have thus far. 

That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

But first I want to remind the members that we do have a great 
number of witnesses to be heard. It is getting well into the afternoon, 
and if it does appear that the witness has answered, refusing to give 
any information whatsoever, could we possibly keep our questions 
down so that we may hear as many witnesses as possible ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Parry, is the People's World published in San 
Francisco ? 

Mr. Parry. I will refuse to answer that question 

Mr. Tavenner. Does it not 

Mr. Parry. Let me finish my answer, please. 

Mr. Tavenner. Please go ahead. 

Mr. Jackson. You were in the middle of your declination to answer. 

Mr. Parry. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
under the fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States of 
America, I am not and cannot be compelled to bear witness against 
myself. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to 
answer the question as to whether the Daily People's World is pub- 
lished in San Francisco. 

Mr. Velde. Certainly. There is no way in which the Chair and 
members can see that an answer to that question would tend to in- 
criminate you under the fifth amendment and under your privileges, 
so you are directed to answer that question, Mr. Witness. 

Mr. Parry. Mr. Chairman, upon the grounds previously stated, I 
refuse to answer that question; under my rights under the fifth 
amendment, I am not to be forced to bear witness against myself. 

Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. It is my information that one issue a week is dedi- 
cated to the Northwest, and that is called the Northwest Edition of 
the People's World. Am I correct in that ? 

Mr. Parry. Mr. Chairman, to save the committee's time, I will re- 
fuse to answer that and all similar questions involving freedom of 
speech and freedom of the press under the grounds previously slated, 
namely, that to do so might compel me to testify against myself, either 
at that point or at some later point in a series of related questions which 
would be opened up by that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. To what extent, if any, has the Communist Party 
in Seattle contributed to the publication of the Northwest Edition 
of the People's World ? 

Mr. Parry. That is the same type of question and I will give the 
same answer, sir — that I refuse to answer under my rights, under the 
fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States, under 
which I cannot be compelled to bear witness against myself. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6253 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you at this time the editor of the Northwest 
Edition of the People's World? . 

Mr. Parry. That and all subsequent questions along that line will 
receive the same answer, sir, and that one specifically at this time I do 
give the same answer to, namely, that I refuse to answer on the ground 
that under the fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United 
States I cannot be compelled to bear witness against myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any employee of the Peoples 
World who is not a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Parry. No matter how many questions of that sort you ask, sir, 
I will answer them by refusing to answer on the grounds that to do so 
might compel me to testify against myself and that under the fifth 
amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America I 
am not required to testify against myself . _ 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Parry. I will consult with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Parry conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Parry. Just so I am crystal clear, what was the last question? 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Parry. I refuse to answer that question on the following 
grounds : that if I were to answer that question, "Yes," which I have 
no intention of doing, I would be subjected to possible indictment and 
imprisonment under the Smith Act; and that if I were to answer that 
question truthfully, which I have no intention— I do have intention 
of answering it truthfully— but if I were to answer it "No," and if 
that were the truth— and I have no intention to give such an answer — 
then this committee could hail the stool pigeon, Barbara Hartle, or 
some other stool pigeon back on this witness stand and get them to 
testify that I was lying and that I would be indicted for perjury. 
Under such circumstances, I have no alternative but to refuse to 
answer that question on the ground of the fifth amendment, under 
which I cannot be compelled to testify against myself. 

Mr. Clardy. You do have an alternative, and that is the truth, sir. 

Mr. Parry. And the fifth amendment is the bulwark of the inno- 
cent, and it is a truthful answer when I refuse to answer, relying upon 
that basic constitutional right, sir. 

Mr. Clardy. I don't agree with you at all, but you are entitled to 
your opinion. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party prior to this time ? 

Mr. Parry. I will refuse to answer that question, sir, on the same 
grounds as previously stated, and may I direct an inquiry as to my 
rights to this committee ? 

Do I, in order to be protected against possible further charges, have 
to repeat each time that formula in regard to invoking the fifth 
amendment ? 

Mr. Velde. No. The committee has more or less followed the rule 
that if you do take refuge under the fifth amendment that you need 
only answer or refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated, if 
you have previously stated them under the fifth amendment, or any 
other grounds that you care to state. 

Now will you proceed to answer the question ? 

Mr. Parry. May I have the question again ? 

48069 — 54 — pt. 4 4 



6254 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. The question is : Have you ever been a member of 
the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Parry. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated. 

Mr. Velde. Now let me say this: The witness mentioned the fact 
that he might be subsequently convicted for perjury or for contempt 
of the Congress. I am certain that no witness who has ever appeared 
before the House Committee on Un-American Activities, who has an- 
swered questions truthfully has ever been subsequently committed to 
jail or prosecuted for any crime by reason of his answers. 

Now I suppose you do not believe me on that, but I assure you it is 
the truth. However, if you do believe me, would it change your idea 
about answering this question ? 

(At this point Mr. Parry conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Parry. Did you ask me a question, sir ? I am sorry. 

Mr. Velde. Yes. In view of what I have said, in view of the state- 
ment that I have made, will you now answer the question as to whether 
you have ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Parry. No, I will not answer that question. I will refuse to 
answer on the grounds previously stated. 

Mr. Velde. Do you have anything further, counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson ? 

Mr. Jackson. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy? 

Mr. Clardy. I have no questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer? 

Mr. Scherer. Yes, I would like to make this observation. 

Witness, you are wearing a button, a rather large one, which says, 
"Joe must go." It is my feeling that if persons like you continue to 
wear such buttons, Joe will never go. 

That is all. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. I have one question. 

I am sure I understood you to state, Mr. Witness, that this commit- 
tee was unconstitutional. 

Mr. Parry. I made that statement, yes, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Now it certainly would not subject you to be a witness 
against yourself if you tell me your authority for that statement. By 
what authority do you make that statement? 

My records show that our highest courts have held this committee 
to be constitutional. Now if you have a different authority, tell me 
what it is. 

Mr. Parry. I will consult with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Parry conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Parry. Counsel advises me that the answer to this question to 
state the legal grounds upon which I belive this committee to be uncon- 
stitutional cannot incriminate me or make me testify against myself^ 
and, therefore, I am glad to do so. 

Mr. Doyle. I am asking you for the court citation. This is a gov- 
ernment of laws and not of personal opinion. Now our highest courts 
have held this committee to be constitutional. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6255 

Mr. Parry. Our highest courts have changed their minds time and 
time again, and I am confident that when the people demand it they 
will change their opinion. 

Mr. Doyle. I am asking you what opinion of the high courts 

Mr. Parry. There have been a number of dissenting opinions in the 
first place. 

I am not a lawyer, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. I know that. 

Mr. Parry. I don't pretend to be versed in the fine points of the law, 
but I have read the Bill of Rights, and I say that this committee is 
violating the Bill of Rights and that in its field of jurisdiction 

Mr. Doyle. Our highest courts have ruled that it does not, and you 
made a flat statement that the committee was unconstitutional, and that 
is why I am challenging you to give the citation. 

Mr." Parry. No citizen of the United States has to agree with the 
courts, high or low. . . 

Mr. Doyle. Nor obey the law, either, according to your opinion? 

Mr. Parry. I didn't say that, and you know I didn't 

Mr. Doyle. That is what you are getting at. 

Mr. Parry. That may be your opinion. 

Mr. Doyle. It is very clearly my opinion. 

That is all. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question on that same line i 

Mr. Velde. All right, Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. Witness — and I am deadly in earnest about this : If 
you do not have and did not have in mind any citation of any court 
in the land which held, in effect, that we were without constitutional 
authoritv to function — I say if you did not have that in mind, then 
how could you truthfully have told us that we were without constitu- 
tional authority % It is obvious to me and it must be to you that you 
knew that you were uttering a falsehood when you said that, since you 
have now said that you are not a lawyer and have no citation in mind, 
and you obviouslv did not. It seems to me you ought to reconsider 
all of the answers that you have given thus far, because if this, sir, 
is the test to be applied to determine and assay the truthfulness of 
everything else that you have said, then you have deliberately falsified 
every answer that you have given us, as is evidenced by what you 
have said. 

That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier. 

Mr. Frazier. Mr. Chairman, there is nothing to be gained by ques- 
tioning this witness further. I suggest that we dismiss him. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair concurs with the gentleman from Tennessee. 
If we have nothing further, the witness is dismissed at this time, and 
we will stand in recess. 
(Witness was excused.) 

(Whereupon, at 3 : 20 p. m., the hearing was recessed to reconvene 
at 3 :35 p.m.) 

(Whereupon, at 3 : 40 o'clock p. m., the hearing was reconvened.) 

Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Eugene V. Dennett, will you come forward, 
please, sir ? 



6256 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

TESTIMONY OF EUGENE V. DENNETT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 
KENNETH A. MacDONALD 

Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand, please ? 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this committee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Dennett. I do. 

(Witness takes the stand in the process of knitting and continues 
knitting during his testimony.) 

Mr. Velde. You may be seated. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir? 

Mr. Dennett. Eugene Victor Dennett — named after Eugene V. 
Debs. 

Mr. Ta\ enner. Are you accompanied by counsel ? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. MacDonald. Kenneth A. MacDonald. I am an attorney at 
law in Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. W T hat is your occupation besides knitting, Mr. 
Witness? 

Mr. Dennett. Steelworker, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in business as a 
steelworker ? How long have you been so employed ? 

Mr. Dennett. Since about 1942, 1 think it is. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 

Mr. Dennett. Revere, Mass. 

Mr. Tavenner. When ? 

Mr. Dennett. April 26, 1908. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 

Mr. Dennett. In the city of Seattle — 7324 34th Avenue SW . 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle ? 

Mr. Dennett. Most of the time since 1932. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you serve in the Armed Forces at any period? 

Mr. Dennett. I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. When was that service performed ? 

Mr. Dennett. I was inducted into service in August of 1943 and 
received an honorable discharge in October of 1945. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your 
formal educational training has been ? 

Mr. Dennett. I graduated from high school in Oregon. I grad- 
uated from the Oregon Normal School, which was a 2-year school at 
that time and has since been converted to a 4-year teachers' college; 
and I took additional work at the University of Oregon, both in resi- 
dence at Eugene and later at Portland. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you had any other educational training? 

Mr. Dennett. Some in the Army — Army administration. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you attended any other schools other than 
those you have mentioned ? 

Mr. Dennett. I can't think of any right now. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, briefly, please, what 
your work record has been; that is, your record of employment — 
where and how you have been employed, say, since 1935. 

Mr. MacDonald. May the witness confer with counsel ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6257 

Mr. Velde. Surely. 

Mr. Tavenner. You may confer with counsel at any time. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, my answer is this : In 1935 
I was employed on the waterfront. I worked on these freight boats 
on Puget Sound. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long did you continue in that employment ? 

Mr. Dennett. I was in that employ, outside of representing the 
union in various activities — there was an association of waterfront 
employees — it isn't the Pacific coast association, it was a local associ- 
ation ; and each of the operators of freight boats at that time belonged 
to this association, and our union had collective-bargaining agree- 
ments with the association, and therefore the employment was with 
all of them really. However, my first employment there was with the 
Puget Sound Freight Lines. 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. Now my question was, how long did that em- 
ployment continue? 

Mr. Dennett. That continued until — off and on, I said, except for 
periods when I was representing the organization in other union work. 
It continued on until my employment with the present employer. But 
there were many different employers in between there. 

Mr. Tavenner. You state that you were connected with certain 
union activities. What did you have reference to there ? 

Mr. Dennett. May I confer, please? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Denner. Counsel advises me that I should be able to answer, so 
I will do my best. 

Please repeat the question, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. You referred to having been engaged in certain 
union activities. 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. And my question was, to what did you refer ? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. In 1935-36, there existed in the Pacific 
Northwest an organization known as the Maritime Federation of the 
Pacific. I was a member of the Inland Boatmen's Union, and in that 
capacity had been elected a number of times to represent the organiza- 
tion as a delegate to other bodies. I was a delegate to the Maritime 
Federation of the Pacific, District Council No. 1, which was the North- 
west council in Seattle. I was also a delegate to the Coastwise Conven- 
tion. I was also a delegate to the Central Labor Council. At that 
time our organization was affiliated with the American Federation 
of Labor. 

Subsequently, when the labor movement split and the CIO was 
organized, I, being one of those who had advocated industrial 
form of organization, was expelled from the Central Labor Council, 
along with many others who likewise suffered that same disciplinary 
action, and then was subsequently elected a delegate to form what was 
known as the Seattle Unity Council, and there I was the executive 
secretary of the Seattle Unity Council. It was comprised of both 
A. F. of L. and CIO unions, attempting to heal the breach which was 
developing. 

At the end of the year 1938 — by 1938 it became clear that the split 
was irrevocable, could not be stopped, and at that time the council 



6258 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

was reduced in affiliation to only CIO locals; and, subsequently, peti- 
tion was made for a charter and it was chartered as a CIO council, as 
such. 

Immediately after that, in 1938, a statewide convention was 
called 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me interrupt you there, please. 

Mr. Dennett. For the organization of the State CIO council, and 
I was elected a delegate to that and served as an officer of it. That is 
all. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did the Communist Party, to your knowledge, play 
any part in the split that you describe, which resulted in a formation 
of the CIO? 

Mr. Dennett. May I confer with counsel, please ? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Counsel advises me to attempt to answer. 

Please repeat the question. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will the reporter read the question? 

(Question read.) 

Mr. Dennett. I believe, sir, the answer to that would have to be 
that it was common knowledge among all persons that the Communist 
Party did have an attitude on the question. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was that attitude ? 

Mr. Dennett. Well, I believe that they were favorable to the organi- 
zation of industrial organizations. I believe that was the case. At 
least I was always under that impression. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you active as an individual in promoting the 
work of either group? 

Mr. Dennett. What do you mean by "either'' ? 

Mr. Tavenner. You have described this split which occurred and 
I gained the impression from what you said that you were compelled 
to resign from one group that you were associated with and that you 
became a member of the second group. Isn't that substantially cor- 
rect? 

Mr. Dennett. No, that isn't quite the way it happened in my case. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you describe it then ? 

Mr. Dennett. You see, the Inland Boatmen's Union, of which I was 
a member at that time, was in itself an industrial form of organization 
already, and it had accomplished that organizational form within the 
framework of the American Federation of Labor, and its members 
looked upon that form of organization as the only practicable form for 
them and felt that since it was true for them that it probably was true 
for workers in like circumstance elsewhere. Therefore they gave all 
the moral support they could to this idea — this organization of which 
I was a member and which I was representing in various AFL councils 
at that time. 

It so happens that the history will show that those organizations 
of the A. F. of L. were somewhat tolerant and lenient toward us 
through 1935, until the A. F. of L. convention, at which time those 
participating in CIO activities were ordered out of the A. F. of L. ; 
and among those ordered out were practically all the waterfront 
unions. But to the best of my recollection, the union of which I was 
a member — I don't recall exactly what did happen, as to whether they 
were ordered out or not; I don't recall that as a matter of historical 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6259 

fact, and I might give you some wrong impression if I were to say one 
thing or the other. . j 

However, among the officers from whom we delegates obtained our 
direction, and from the members it was deemed advisable to not at- 
tempt to participate any further in the A. F. of L. council as an or- 
ganization for the reason that the interests seemed to be somewhat 
m conflict and our members felt that it wasn't worth becoming in- 
volved in that kind of an argument and instead joined with the other 
organizations on the waterfront and elsewhere which were attempting 
to develop CIO organization. 

So I don't know whether that is a satisfactory answer or not, but 
that is as near as I can give you. 

Mr. MacDonald. Mr. Counsel, may I speak for a moment with Mr. 
Dennett in an effort to elaborate in a small way the testimony that he 
has j ust given to clear up any possible confusion ? 

Mr. Velde. Yes, you are privileged to speak with your client. 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald conferred with Mr. Dennett.) 

Mr. Dennett. The point counsel reminds me of is that I used the 
expression "our" and that there might be some misunderstanding as 
to what that means. , 

I was referring there to the membership of the Inland .boatman s 
Union and to the officers of that union. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you at that time a member of the Communist 

Party ? 

Mr. MacDonald. Would you state the date, Mr. Tavenner ? 

Mr. Tavenner. At the time that the witness has described. 

Mr. Dennett. You are speaking of 1935 ? mi 

Mr. Tavenner. At the time that you have described your activities. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. After properly conferring with counsel, sir, I find 
that I have to invoke the privileges of the fifth amendment of the Con- 
stitution for the reason that to continue to testify along this line and 
to answer this specific question might tend to incriminate me; and 1 
feel, sir, that it is just one of those ironical pieces of legislation and 
ironical interpretations of law by the courts which bio ks witnesses 
from testifying freely on matters which they would desire to testify 
on but fear subsequently later becoming involved in a contempt cita- 
tion, because your next questions-would obviously be in a direction that 
would give us that trouble. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Witness, the only way that you could possibly be 
involved in a contempt citation is by your refusal to answer questions, 
as I see it. You might, if you told a lie, be involved in a per j urj charge, 
if you answered the questions. 

The Chair has the impression that possibly you might be ot great 
value to the committee's work if you yould see fit to cooperate with 
your Federal Government and the House of Representatives and with 
this committee. Of course that may be only an impression. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Mr. Chairman, after conferring with my counsel, I 
wish to make this explanation to you. It is quite different than any- 
thing you have heard before, I believe 

Mr. Scherer. That will be refreshing. 



6260 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Dennett. It is refreshing, and it is rather unusual. But may 
I make this statement by way of explanation to you, that you may 
understand what is the fact ? 

Recently, sir — and, gentlemen, I have been brought up on charges 
and tried within my local union, the United Steelworkers of America, 
Local Union, 1208, of which I am presently a member and of which 
I have been an officer during the past 4 years. 

Mr. Clardy. Do you mean charges dealing with the subject under 
inquiry here? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And, as a consequence, some 
decisions were made against me at that time, and also some statements 
were subsequently made about me, which I contend to be false; and, 
therefore, I have pending in the superior court of King County a 
libel action against those persons who have committed what I con- 
sider to be libel against me. 

Now, under the circumstances — also in view of the fact that although 
the decision of the local union was partly in my favor and partly 
against me — but those who accused me have appealed to the interna- 
tional executive board for further action against me — I think that in 
this situation it is unfair to either them or myself — I mean the accusers 
or myself — to review all of this matter here when it is going to be aired 
in the superior court in King County. Under those circumstances, I 
believe, sir, that the fifth amendment clearly applies to me, as well as 
the right of the court to have prior jurisdiction. 

I wish it were possible for me to testify in every respect; I wish it 
were so, because I would like to correct the public record on many, 
many things. But, under the circumstances, upon advice of counsel, 
I am compelled to resort to invoking my privileges under the fifth 
amendment to not incriminate myself. 

Mr. Velde. I would like to ask the witness this question and then 
I will yield to the gentleman from California. 

If you were assured that the testimony you gave here would not 
conflict with any lawsuits that are pending at the present time or 
any hearings before your local union to expel you from the union, 
would you then testify and give us truthful answers regarding the 
questions asked ? 

Mr. Dennett. I am sorry. I couldn't quite hear you. 

Mr. Velde. If you were assured that the answers you gave to ques- 
tions which are submitted to you here by counsel and members of the 
committee would not interfere with the actions of your local or the 
lawsuits that are now pending, would you then give us a truthful 
answer to the question as to your Communist Party activity? 

Mr. Dennett. Let me confer with counsel on that. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, my counsel is very much of 
the opinion that in the event I understood to answer in the form in 
which you suggest that I would still have to invoke the fifth amend- 
ment privileges in order to protect myself against possible incrimina- 
tion. I just wish it weren't so. but that seems to be the general legal 
counsel and it seems to be the general opinion of all competent legal 
advisers that I have discussed the matter with, and I have discussed 
it with many, including my present counsel. 

Mr. Velde. Of course it is very disappointing to me that you feel 
that you must take that attitude. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6261 

I yield to the gentleman from California, Mr. Jackson. 

Mr. Jackson". The witness has volunteered testimony to the effect 
that certain charges were leveled against him in connection with his 
activity in a given union. I believe it has already been read into the 
record, but I should like to ask whether or not those activities dealt 
with allegations relative to Communist Party activities? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. I am having difficulty remembering just exactly the 
precise thing that you are referring to. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett again conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Jackson, will you yield for a moment — not for a 
question but for an observation? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. 

Mr. Scherer. The witness, in my opinion, has already said that the 
charges did deal with Communist Party activities in response to a ques- 
tion asked him by Mr. Clardy. I think that is already in the record : 
he has admitted that the charges involved in the union hearing related 
to Communist Party activities on his part. 

Mr. Vei.de. The Chair concurs in that. I think Mr. Clardy made 
that very clear. 

Mr. Jackson. That is precisely the reason I am again asking the 
question, so that it will be perfectly clear in the record that such alle- 
gations were made and did result in certain actions by the union. 

Is the understanding of the committee correct that these charges 
relative to Communist activity did play a part in the action taken by 
your local I 

Mr. Dennett. It would be hard to answer that in the precise form 
in which you indicate you desire an answer, sir, and I think that my 
remark here was to the effect that the general subject matter is what 
was referred to ; and I tried not to be too specific on it, sir, because it 
involves allegations, you see, and therefore, I don't believe that I could 
properly conform with your thinking as to your jurisdiction. 

Mr. Jackson. Were the allegations to the point that you had been or 
were a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Dennett. I have to confer with counsel, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, confer with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Velde. At this point, the Chair has other business to attend to, 
so I am forced to leave. I appoint the gentleman from California, Mr. 
Jackson, as chairman, and I note that there is a quorum present. 

(At this point Mr. Velde left the hearing room.) 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, I can reply in this fashion, 
sir — that I must decline to discuss that question, as such, on the basis 
of my privileges under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. I ask you to direct the witness to answer that question. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, in the light of the answer already in the record, 
the witness is directed to answer the question now pending. 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, I feel compelled, under the circumstances, to 
invoke the fifth amendment privileges. 

Mr. Jackson. Under what compulsion ? 



48069—54 — pt. 4- 



6262 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Dennett. I feel, sir, that, were I to answer, it might tend to 
self-incrimination, which is my privilege under the fifth amendment 
to not so testify. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee understands that full well. How- 
ever, the committe, I am sure, does not consider that the matter of 
your personal libel action is of any concern to the committee in the 
pursuit of its duties. Therefore, I should like to ask one more ques- 
tion, relative to these charges, upon which it is my understanding 
that you have based a libel action. 

Mr. Dennett. No, sir. May I correct that ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes, of course. 

Mr. Dennett. The libel action grew out of something which 
occurred after the decision of the local union trial committee, and I 
am of the firm conviction that things which transpired prior to that 
will have a bearing upon the suit in court, itself, and therefore I feel 
that it would be contrary to jurisdiction of law for me to testify here 
at this time when it is going to come up. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I inquire at this time ? 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. As I understand it, the action you are talking about 
is a civil action instituted by you, is that correct ? 

Mr. Dennett. I believe that is what it is called. 

Mr. Clardy. There is no action of a criminal nature pending, deal- 
ing with the subject we are discussing, am I right ? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. To the best of my knowledge, no. 

Mr. Clardy. Very well. Is the nature of the civil action one in 
which you are accusing someone else of having libeled } t ou by identify- 
ing you as a member of the Communist Party ? 

I am seeking to know the basis for your action, and since it is already 
filed, as a matter of public knowledge, we can probably obtain the 
declaration, but it will hasten the matter if you will tell us what it is. 

Mr. Dennett. Well, sir, I hesitate to impose upon the committee by 
asking you a question. 

Mr. Clardy. Don't do it then. Just answer the question. 

Mr. Dennett. But, you see, there is more involved in it than that. 

Mr. Clardy. Well, give me the substance of the accusation, the 
charge, if you please, that you have leveled in your declaration or 
whatever you may term it in the court where it is filed ? 

Mr. Doyle. You might even give us the number of the action. 

Mr. Clardy. Yes. If he doesn't answer that question, I intend to 
pursue it so that we can get the documents before us and find out. 

Mr. Jackson. One at a time, gentlemen. 

Mr. Scherer. I don't think we need to get the documents. I think 
he must answer. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, upon advice of counsel, I will identify the civil 
action for you. I do not have the case number that it is filed under, but 
it is under the title of Dennett versus Blair Furman, international 
representative. 

Mr. Jackson. How do you spell that name ? 

Mr. Dennett. F-u-r-m-a-n. 

Mr. Clardy. In his individual as well as his representative ca- 
pacity ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6263 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir — and against James McCarthy, and against 
Robert L. Ferguson. 

Mr. Clardy. Then, Witness, I think before asking that question, we 
should tell you this. 

In view of the fact that this is purely a civil action and in view of 
your flat statement that there is no criminal proceeding involved, any 
answer that you might give as to the Communist Party connections 
you may have, as are embodied in the civil action that you have dis- 
cussed, could not in any way possibly have incriminated you, as an 
action instituted by yourself, so when I ask this next question I wish 
you would bear that in mind. 

Is it not true that the basis for the action that you have described 
by the title of Dennett versus Furman is that you have been libeled 
by being called a member of the Communist Party, among other 
things ? 

( At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald. ) 

Mr. Dennett. I have to confer with counsel. I am sorry to take 
the time. 

Mr. Clardy. Counsel may advise you on your constitutional rights. 

Mr. Dennett. Do I understand your question, sir, that 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald conferred with Mr. Dennett.) 

Mr. Dennett. Counsel suggests that you repeat the question. 

Mr. Clardy. If you didn't know what the question was, what were 
you conferring with counsel about? 

Mr. Dennett. I think I know. 

Mr. Clardy. I think you do. Please answer it. 

Mr. MacDonald. I ask that the question be read. 

Mr. Clardy. I am not addressing you at all. Under the rules, you 
have no right 

Mr. MacDonald. I repeat, sir, I will ask again to have the question 
read. 

Mr. Clardy. The witness says he understands the question. 

Will you answer it ? 

Mr. Dennett. Mr. Chairman, I will do my best to answer the ques- 
tion, according to the advice of counsel. Counsel, however, has sug- 
gested that for purposes of everyone understanding clearly what the 
situation is that we have the question repeated. I think it would help. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Read the question. 

(Question was read.) 

Mr. Dennett. Now, sir, advice of counsel is that I can answer that 
question now. 

That issue was not involved at all. That is not the basis of the libel 
action. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there any accusation of any kind made by you in 
this suit that you have been wrongfully identified as a member of any 
organization ? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, upon advice of counsel, we believe that the proper 
answer to that question is "No." 

Mr. Clardy. Then suppose that you tell us exactly what the basis 
for the action may be ? 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, I have to confer with counsel, because this coun- 
sel has advised me all the way through on this, and I think that I must 
have that advice. 



6264 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Clardy. Go right ahead. We haven't even slowed you down. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will state at this time that as long as the 
witness has declared that the matter which is the subject of interroga- 
tion in this hearing, according to the witness, is not the matter in the 
libel action which he has introduced, unless there is an affirmative vote 
from the members of the committee to further pursue the matter of this 
case the Chair will ask the witness to suspend in his answer. 

(Mr. Dennett has been conferring with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. I feel, Mr. Chairman, that you are right in your ruling. 
Unless the issue of subversive activities or the Communist Party is 
involved in the civil suit which the witness has filed, I don't see where 
it is pertinent. 

Mr. Clardy. I will explain, Mr. Doyle. 

The point I am getting at is that he has raised the fifth amendment 
a little bit earlier, and now he has very clearly, in my opinion, by the 
answers he has given, made it clear that there is no danger of any pos- 
sible incrimination, no matter what your answer may be, I say, on the 
basis of the record that you yourself have made, and therefore I have 
gotten this far because I want to ask this question. 

Are you now or have you ever been at any time a member of the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, that question makes it very simple. The answer 
to that has to be — under the circumstances it has to be that I invoke 
my privileges under the fifth amendment to decline to answer for the 
reason that I think that it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Jackson. Let me say again what the chairman of the committee 
has said several times today : You are under no compulsion to answer 
the question. 

Do you decline to answer the question that has just been asked? 

Mr. Dennett. The compulsion I am thinking of, sir, is the logic 
involved in it. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes; but we are interested in the legality involved 
in it. 

Do you so decline to answer that, question ? 

Mr. Dennett. I do, sir ; upon advice of counsel, I invoke the privi- 
lege of the fifth amendment to not give testimony which might tend 
to incriminate me. 

Mr. Clardy. Before I surrender, I just want to ask the Chair to 
direct him to answer that on the basis of having, I think, as I have 
previously stated, cut the ground out from under his feet on the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will issue such a direction that the witness 
answer the last question. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, it is my feeling that in the answers I have given 
you, I have replied to questions which do not — the answers to which 
do not in anywise involve selfincrimination. I feel that the privilege 
of the fifth amendment has to be invoked on the questions which you 
are now raising, because it is my further understanding that if a wit- 
ness fails to use them on any question which might tend to incrim- 
inate, that from then on the witness is obliged to continue to reply, no 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6265 

matter how painful. I desire, sir, to not become involved in that kind 
of situation. . 

Mr. Clardy. You are invoking the fifth amendment and refusing 

to answer then? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Clardy. Very well. That is all. 

Mr. Jackson. Let us get this last declaration clearly on the record. 

You were directed to answer the question, and it is my understand- 
ing that you declined to answer the question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. By injecting the libel suit into the questioning in this 
matter, we have gotten away from the principal question which has 
never been answered. 

Isn't it a fact now, Witness, that you were expelled from the union 
because of Communist Party activities ? 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, the question which has just been asked has a cer- 
tain error in fact, which I wonder if the questioner is aware of. 

Mr. Scherer. I will ask you what part of my statement is not true ? 

Mr. Dennett. Well, you made a statement, sir, to the effect that I 
was expelled from some union. I wonder w T hat you are referring to 
there ? 

Mr. Scherer. What were you expelled from ? 

Mr. Dennett. Well, I haven't been expelled from a union, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. What did happen ? 

Mr. Dennett. Now there we are getting into the same area again. 

Mr. Scherer. It is my recollection that you testified that you were 
expelled. 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald conferred with Mr. Dennett.) 

Mr. Dennett. There must be some confusion, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. What did you testify to, then ? 

Mr. Dennett. What is it that you are referring to ? 

Mr. Scherer. What happened between you and your union? 

Mr. Dennett. Which union are you referring to now ? 

Mr. Scherer. You know what union I am referring to — the one 
with which you had difficulty. 

Mr. Dennett. Well, I am not sure, sir, because you haven't identi- 
fied it. 

Mr. Scherer. All right. Which union have you been expelled from 
or suspended from or did you have trouble with ? 

Mr. Dennett. That is the difficulty. Your statement has an error 
of fact in it. I have not been expelled from a union. 

Mr. Scherer. What has happened to you ? 

Mr. Dennett. I have to confer with counsel now, sir. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, let us try to get the record straight on this. 

I think you are referring to the current situation, that is, my rela- 
tions in the Steelworkers' Union. 

Mr. Scherer. I am referring to your testimony of just a few minutes 
ago, before you led us away from that subject and started to discuss 



6266 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

the libel suit, which now has nothing to do with your difficulties with 
the union. 

I specifically remember that you said that charges were preferred 
against you by a union. I don't remember which union it was, but 
that is your testimony. 

Mr. Dennett. If you are referring to that, sir, then you must be 
referring to the developments within the United Steelworkers of 
America, local 1208, and, if you are, sir, I was not expelled from the 
union. 

Mr. Sciierer. Is it not a fact that those charges referred to Commu- 
nist Party activities on your part ? 

Mr. Dennett. No. 

Mr. Scherer. What did they refer to ? 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, that raises a very interesting item, and I hope 
that my remark will not be misconstrued. 

If we had a clear definition here as to what constituted subversive 
activity, we might know what you are talking about. 

Mr. Scherer. Did the charges refer to subversive activities then — as 
a Trotsky ite or as a member of the Communist Party, or anything else? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, my reply to you must be and 
is that I invoke the privileges of the fifth amendment to not give testi- 
mony which might tend to self-incrimination, and to advise that that 
information you are asking about is obtainable as public information. 

Mr. Scherer. Then I can draw no other conclusion from the state- 
ment you made, when you injected the words "subversive activities," 
but that the charges must relate to subversive activities. Am I in error 
about that? 

Mr. Dennett. I will take the fifth amendment, sir, if I may. 

Mr. Scherer. You are invoking the fifth amendment ? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes. 

Mr. Jackson. And you are declining to answer the question? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. Now did you have a hearing before the union on 
those charges? 

Mr. Dennett. The matter is still pending, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. Did you have a preliminary hearing? 

Did you have any kind of a hearing? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Yes. 

Mr. Scherer. You were under oath at that time, were you? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes. 

Mr. Scherer. Who administered the oath? 

Mr. Dennett. A court reporter that took the transcript of the trial. 

Mr. Scherer. Was it a union proceeding? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Scherer. All right. Now let me ask you this one question. 

At that hearing, did you testify, make a statement — of course, no- 

*7 m tlie union P roc eeding has authority to administer an oath. 

Mr. Dennett. This was an official court recorder for the superior 
court that was called in to take the transcript of testimony— every- 
thing— a person that was qualified under the law of the State of Wash- 
ington to administer oaths. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6267 

Mr. Scherer. She may be qualified, but there is no right of any per- 
son to administer an oath in a proceeding before a union. 

Mr. Dennett. It was done. 

Mr. Scherer. Well, if it was done, you couldn't have been held for 
perjury for any misstatement or false statement you might have made. 

Now did you testify at that hearing ? 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, sir, I invoke the privilege of 
the fifth amendment for the simple reason that if we opened this thing 
up at all — I have read the Congressional Record for May 11, 1954, and 
I see what has happened to a good many other persons. 

Mr. Scherer. I am not asking you what you testified to. I am 
merely asking you if you testified in this hearing that you had, result- 
ing from charges brought against you by the union. I am merely 
asking if you testified. 

Mr. Dennett. That is getting into the substance of the subject, 
however. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I request that the witness be directed 
to answer the question as to whether or not he testified. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Dennett. I must decline and claim my privileges under the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you so decline ? 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, sir, on the grounds of the fifth amendment — 
self-incrimination. 

Mr. Scherer. Isn't it a fact that at that time you did testify and 
you were not knitting ? 

Mr. MacDonald. May we have one question at a time ? 

Mr. Dennett. The second question is in error. 

Mr. Scherer. That is all. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have any further questions, counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

When was the trial or hearing held by your union ? 

Mr. Dennett. I don't know, sir, whether I can give you the exact 
date or not. 

Mr. Tavenner. Give us the approximate date. 

Mr. Dennett. I will see if I can look it up. 

Mr. Tavenner. The approximate date will be satisfactory. 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald conferred with Mr. Dennett.) 

Mr. Tavenner. If you can, give us the month and year. 

Mr. Dennett. I have a note, sir, in my little private diary of Satur- 
day, the 27th day of February. 

Mr. Tavenner. What year ? 

Mr. Dennett. 1954. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you, during the course of your hearing, make 
an admission that you had been a member of the Communist Party, 
although you were not at that time a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Dennett. May I, sir, take the shortest possible way of invoking 
,the fifth amendment privileges in this case, in this answer ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you refuse to answer the question on the grounds 
of the fifth amendment? Is that the position that you are taking? 

Mr. Dennett. I feel, sir, that my only protection is to invoke the 
privilege of the fifth amendment against self-incrimination. 



6268 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tavenner. Weren't you expelled from the Communist Party 
in 1947 or 1948? 

Mr. Dennett. I invoke the privilege of the fifth amendment, sir, 
because of the possibility of self-incrimination. 

Mr. Jackson. And you decline to answer the question ? 

Mr. Dennett. I decline to answer the question for that reason. 

Mr. Tavenner. A report by the district executive board, District 
Review Commission of the Northwest district of the Communist Party, 
addressed to all members of the Communist Party, a copy of which 
was introduced in evidence as Barbara Hartle exhibit No. 1, shows 
that you were expelled from the Communist Party. 

Now you and your counsel were given this document to examine this 
morning after it was introduced in evidence. 

Had you ever seen it before it was handed to you this morning, that 
is, the document, Barbara Hartle exhibit No. 1 ? 

Mr. Dennett. Counsel wishes to look at it, sir. 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald examined the document.) 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, sir, I decline to answer, in- 
voking my privilege under the fifth amendment against self-incrimina- 
tion. 

Mr. Tavenner. I will read one paragraph from the document, which 
is as follows : 

A long record of unprincipled factional attacks upon the party leadership; 
of beating his chest and posing as the one and only guardian and defender of a 
correct party policy, while at the same time associating with known Trotskyites ; 
together with the erratic, unstable, and disruptive conduct of Harriet Dennett 
over an equally long period of time, has finally landed them fully in the camp 
of FBI informers, Trotsky ite scum, red-baiters, and every other enemy of the 
Communist Party and the working class. 

Do you recall that language having been used in action taken by 
the Communist Party in regard to you ? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, upon advice of counsel, I must decline to answer 
your question, sir. 

But one thing must be clear. I have never been an FBI informer or 
agent, and I am sure that anybody with an ounce of sense knows better 
than to make such a statement. 

Mr. Clardy. By that statement you are impliedly answering that 
you are or were all the other things that were mentioned. 

I will again ask the same question that counsel asked you. 

Mr. Dennett. There might be some dispute as to the interpretation 
you make. 

Mr. Clardy. None whatever. I am asking you the same question 
in view of what you have said. 

Mr. Dennett. I am not sure that I follow you there, sir. 

Mr. Clardy. You have, by saying that you were never a member of 
the FBI informers' staff, or whatever you called it ; impliedly admitted 
that you were all the other things covered by the paragraph. Now I 
am asking you to again answer the same question that was submitted 
by Mr. Tavenner ? 

Mr. Dennett. I am afraid that that question has a little bit of a 
catch to it, sir ; and, while I am declining to answer it on the basis of 
the fifth amendment, I trust that you understand, as well as everyone 
else, that by doing so I am not in the least accepting your affirmative 
position with respect to interpretation. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6269 

Mr. Jackson. May the Chair say at this time that we have taken a 
considerable amount of time with this witness? We have several 
other witneses whom we hope to conclude with this afternoon, so it 
would be appreciated if we could move along on the direct questioning 
by counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was the attack upon the leadership of the 
Communist Party which was alleged in this document to have been 
made by you ? ... 

Mr. Dennett. I decline to answer, sir, on the basis of the fifth 
amendment, privileges against self-incrimination. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you not become definitely identified at a very 
short period after that action by the Communist Party with an organ- 
ization known as the Socialist Workers' Party, frequently referred to 
as a Trotskyite organization ? 

Mr. Dennett. On this sir, I invoke the privilege of the fifth amend- 
ment and decline to answer on the grounds of possible self-incrimina- 
tion, without any construction such as is implied in your question. 

Mr. Tavenner. There has been handed to you and to your counsel 
earlier today Barbara Hartle exhibit No. 2, which is a certification by 
the Secretary of State of Washington of records of the Socialist 
Workers' Party, and the last page, filed on September 17, 1952, gives 
the names of the list of signers, constituting the nominating petition 
for the Socialist Workers' Party of September 9, 1952. 

I will ask you to examine it again and state whose name appears as 
item 17 thereon. 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald examined the document.) 

Mr. Tavenner. It is the last page. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, a slight correction : This instrument speaks for 
itself; it is a photostat from public records, and the name that you are 
referring to, I think, is 18. 

Mr. Tavenner. Well, what is No. 18 — if I have made a mistake? 
Whose name appears as No. 18 ? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Tavenner. It is the last page of the document. The number 
appears on the margin. It is very easy to see. 

(No response.) 

Mr. Tavenner. May I ask the witness to look at the last page ? I 
noticed counsel this morning had a different page. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett and Mr. MacDonald examine the page 
indicated by counsel.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Whose name appears as item 17 ? 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, upon advice of counsel, I answer that the instru- 
ment speaks for itself. 

There seems to be some peculiar thing about it. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Dennett. I must confer with counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, sir, my reply is that I decline 
to answer for the reason that the fifth amendment gives me the privi- 
lege to not give testimony of self- incriminating nature. 

48069— 54— pt. 4 6 



6270 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair cannot see how reading the name would 
incriminate you. 

However, what does appear on the line in question, Mr. Counsel? 

Mr. Tavenner. The name appearing opposite the figure 17 is Eugene 
V. Dennett. 

Mr. Dennett. There is some discrepancy on that copy — on the 
other copy. 

Mr. Tavenner. What was your address September 9, 1952? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. My counsel has something on his mind, sir. 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald conferred with Mr. Dennett.) 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, the dutjr of counsel in this case is to 
advise a client as to his legal rights — not to tell him what to testify to. 

Mr. Dennett. My counsel isn't doing that, sir. My counsel is 
giving me bgal advice. 

Mr. MacDonald. I assure you that I am not telling him what to 
testify to. The rules say that I can give him legal advice, and chat is 
exactly and precisely what I am doing. If you have anything to the 
contrary, I would be glad to hear it. 

Mr. Jackson. Proceed with your conference. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you now please tell us what your address was 
on September 9, 1952 ? 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, sir, I invoke the privilege, of 
the fifth amendment and decline to become involved in any testimony 
which might tend to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine page 11 of the document and 
examine line 3 from the bottom, and state whether or not that is your 
signature — a copy of your signature ? 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald examined the document.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I notice that you have not examined the document 
that I handed you. 

Mr. Dennett. Yes, I have, sir ; I have looked at it. 

My answer, sir, is that I decline to answer under the grounds of the 
fifth amendment, because to answer might tend to lead to self-incrimi- 
nation ; under the fifth amendment, I claim the privilege to not give 
testimony of that character. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, is there any further useful purpose to be 
served in further examination of this witness ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I think not, other than to ask him one question. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Upon advice of counsel, sir, I am going to answer 
that question "No." 

Mr. Tavenner. When did you cease to become a member ? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, this is not funny. The witness and 
his counsel have been laughing continuously. 

Mr. Jackson. Evidently it is a humorous matter, as far as the wit- 
ness is concerned, but I assure him that it is not humorous as far as 
the committee or the country is concerned. 

Mr. Dennett. I appreciate that it is a very serious matter that is- 
under discussion ; I appreciate it very much. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6271 

Mr. Jackson. It has not been reflected in your conduct on the wit- 
ness stand. 

However, there is a question pending. Let us proceed. 

Mr. MacDonald. This is the one man who has cooperated with this 
committee. You asked for cooperation. 

Mr. Jackson. Will counsel kindly refrain from making these 
remarks. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I will ask that counsel be ejected from 
the room if he says one more thing. 

Mr. MacDonald. This witness 

Mr. Jackson. Just a moment. Counsel will please refrain from 
entering into a debate or a discussion about it. I am sure that he is 
familiar with the rules of the committee, It is not the desire of the 
chair or the committee to unduly infringe on any right he may have. 
However, under the rules of the committee, counsel is not permitted to 
engage in any argument with the committee members. I hope that 
counsel will observe that ruling. 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, the reason that I saw a somewhat element of 
humor was because counsel for the committee stated that he was going 
to ask one question and, as soon as he got through asking the one ques- 
tion, he went on to another. 

Mr. Clardy. Because you didn't answer. 

Mr. Dennett. I did answer, sir ; I did answer. That was the humor- 
ous part. 

Mr. Jackson. That is the prerogative of counsel. 

It seems, "Witness, that the humor of the whole thing struck you 
the moment you took the stand, so it precedes by a long time anything 
that counsel has done lately. 

It is the prerogative of counsel to ask 1 more or 10 more questions, 
as your answers seem to indicate the necessity. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question, please? 

(At this point Mr. Dennett conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mr. Dennett. Under the fifth amendment, sir, I invoke the privilege 
of declining to answer, because to answer might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question at this point? 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. You stated that you are not a member of the Com- 
munist Party now. Were you a member of the party yesterday? 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, I think that you will recognize why I invoke 
the privilege of the fifth amendment to that question — because it is 
obviously leading to something else, and I think that it is clear to 
everyone that the only protection I have is to invoke the fifth amend- 
ment against possible self-incrimination; so I therefore do so and 
decline to answer your question very respectfully, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Socialist Workers' 
Party? 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, do you want to shorten this up by my saying 
I decline to answer 

Mr. Tavenner. Just answer. 

Mr. Dennett. My answer is that I decline to answer on the basis of 
the fifth amendment, because of possible self-incrimination. 



6272 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

If there is a shortened form that the committee will accept, I will 
be glad to use it. 

Air. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy ? 

Mr. Clardy. No questions. But may I make this suggestion, Mr. 
Chairman? 

The file in Dennett v. Furman may have some information which 
may lead to some further questions in a possible executive session when 
we may have better control, and maybe he won't bring his knitting 
along. 

Mr. Dennett. I bring it everywhere, sir. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be dismissed 
from the stand and be continued under subpena. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes ; the Chair agrees that this should be gone into 
further. The subpena will therefore be continued and counsel may 
confer with counsel for the committee as to time and place. 

Are there any further questions ? 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make this observation 
in connection with this witness. 

Often complaints have been made that witnesses appearing before 
this committee do not have the same rights that witnesses do when 
they appear in a courtroom. Let me say that, at least in the court- 
rooms I have practiced in, if a witness had come before the court 
and taken the witness stand and knitted as this witness has done, the 
judge, within a very few minutes, would have found a comfort- 
able cell — and I don't mean a Communist cell — for the individual to 
continue his knitting. He is clearly in contempt of this committee as 
he would have been in contempt of the court. 

Mr. Clardy. I think he was so advised by his counsel, from the 
look on his face. 

Mr. MacDonald. Sir ? 

Mr. Clardy. Never mind. 

Mr. MacDonald. If you were making comments about me, I can 
call 

Mr. Clardy. You heard me. Please subside. 

Mr. MacDonald. Yes, I heard you, and I object to your assertion, 
sir. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. I note that counsel stated, that is, witness' counsel, that 
this witness endeavored to cooperate with the committee, and I take 
counsel at his word. I am a lawyer, so in asking this question I made 
that preliminary statement for the benefit of counsel and the witness. 

I ask you this question, Witness, very earnestly and sincerely: If 
you were not presently involved in the difficulties you have related so 
far as any union is concerned, and the lawsuit which you have 
named — if you were not presently involved in those difficulties and 
you had been asked this line of questions as to whether or not you 
had been a member of the Communist Party, would you then still 
plead the fifth amendment, or would you waive that and answer the 
questions without placing yourself behind the fifth amendment? 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald conferred with Mr. Dennett.) 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6273 

Mr. Dennett. Sir, the question you raise is a question which has 
given me a cause to do a great deal of reflection, and I tried to figure 
out what would be the proper thing to do. The present circumstances 
are such that I can only answer with respect to the present and, under 
the present circumstances, it appears to me, after conferring with 
counsel, that the only course I can take at the present time is the course 
that I have taken. 

Now I am aware that your question indicates the possibility that 
in the event there wasn't any pending litigation and no question 
involving the local organization, that that might create different cir- 
cumstances, and certainly it might. I cannot say what I would do 
under those circumstances, but I think that I might be under less 
restraint than I am at the present moment ; I think that would be the 
case. 

My feeling, sir, is that it is grossly unfair for me to set about naming 
a lot of people who may, in all their innocence, and everything else, 
have become entangled in something that they wish they had not been 
entangled in. It is very possible that the line of questioning might 
lead in that direction, sir. It might hurt people in important public 
office, and I think that it is grossly unfair for me, as a person, to subject 
anybody to that kind of thing because, in so doing, I might involve 
myself in some fact or some information which might tend to be self- 
incriminating. 

Mr. Doyle. I think you have answered my question. 

Of course I just assumed, in asking you that question, that you, as a 
labor leader, were well aware of the press release made by Walter 
Reuther during our Flint hearings, in which he advocated very specifi- 
cally that all members of CIO, if possible, waive the fifth amendment 
and testify in cooperation with this committee. And I will bring that 
statement by Walter Reuther, Mr. Chairman, and read it into the 
record. 

I want to suggest this to you, sir. Granting that what you say may 
have a lot of merit to it, you know, as well as I do, that there has been 
and still is today a very definite Communist Party conspiracy in this 
country, and I am always hopeful that you labor leaders will place the 
interests of your country ahead of a little personal inconvenience and 
embarrassment and help expose that. That was the purpose of my 
question — to see whether or not you would come to the conclusion that 
you would cooperate with the Government on that basis, if you were 
not involved in the two situations in which you apparently rely on 
now as the reason why you plead the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Dennett. Congressman Doyle, I appreciate the purport of } r our 
question, and I think that the very way in which you pose it indicates 
that you are as aware as many other persons that there are political im- 
plications to activities of investigation — they can be used for political 
purposes. I do not desire to become so involved, sir, and I think that 
if I were to become so involved that that might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Doyle. I heard you, but I hope that you get around to thinking 
of putting the interests of your own country, as against the Communist 
conspiracy, ahead of even some political implications. I hope that 
you will come to that before too long, Mr. Dennett. 

That is all, Mr. Chairman. 



6274 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. If there are no further questions of this witness, he 
will be dismissed at this time. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Before the committee recesses until tomorrow morn- 
ing, some communications have been received which we wish to 
acknowledge and read into the record. 

The committee is very happy to have received the following tele- 
gram, which refers to the leaflet that was mentioned in this morning's 
session. 

Mr. Doyle. You mean the yellow sheet ? 

Mr. Jackson. The yellow sheet ; yes. 

(See appendix for communication.) 

Mr. Jackson. I am sure that the members of the committee join 
with me in extending thanks for that information. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that this morning I 
invited whatever union Mr. Kirkwood was a member of to come for- 
ward and state whether or not it was done with the authority of that 
union, I wish to say that the telegram that our distinguished chairman 
read, signed by James Willoughby, port agent, Marine Cooks and 
Stewards, A. F. of L. — I wish to compliment the leadership of that 
A. F. of L. union in so promptly accepting the committee's invitation 
to disavow the contents of the yellow sheet and to compliment the 
members of this committee. 

(See appendix for communication.) 

At this time the committee will stand in recess until 9 o'clock tomor- 
row morning. 

( Whereupon, at 4 : 45 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 
9 a. m., Tuesday, June 15, 1954.) 



INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE 
""PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA— Part 4 (SEATTLE) 



TUESDAY, JUNE 15, 1954 

United States House of Representatives, 

Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Seattle, Wash. 
public hearing 

afternoon session x 

The Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to recess, 
at 2 : 05 p. m., in 402, County-City Building, Seattle Wash., Hon. 
Harold H. Velde (chairman) presiding. 

Committee members present: Representatives Harold H. Velde 
(chairman), Donald L. Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, 
Clyde Doyle, and James B. Frazier, Jr. 

Staff members present: Robert L. Kunzig, counsel; Frank S. 
Tavenner, Jr., counsel ; William A. Wheeler, investigator ; and Thomas 
W. Beale, Sr., chief clerk. 

Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order, please. 

Will you proceed, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 

Mr. Melvin W. Kirkwood, will you come forward, please, sir? 

TESTIMONY OF MELVIN W. KIRKW00D, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, C. T. HATTEN 

Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Before I take the oath 

Mr. Velde. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I have a question with regard to counsel. I think it 
is only right for me to ask it. Then I will be very happy to take the 
oath. 

Mr. Velde. I repeat, Witness, will you take the oath ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I believe before I should be expected to take the 
oath 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, regular order. 

Mr. Velde. Regular order. 

Mr. Clardy. I ask that the witness be compelled to take the oath or 
take the consequences. 

Mr. Velde. Do you refuse to take the oath? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I will take the oath. 

Mr. Velde. Then raise your right hand. 

1 During the morning session, testimony of Barbara Hartle was heard, which is printed 
In pt. 2 of these hearings. 

6275 



6276 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

In the testimony that you are about to give before this committee, 
do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I do. 

Mr. Velde. You may be seated. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel.. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir? 

Mr. Kirkwood. If you please, sir, I have a question with regard to 
counsel that I would like to ask before I proceed, if I may. 

May I have the privilege of asking the question? 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that counsel should first iden- 
tify himself for the record. 

Mr. Hatten. My name is C. T. Hatten. I am a member of the bar 
in the city of Seattle. 

I would also like to address a question, if I could, particularly with 
regard to the fact that I have been excluded from the hearings. 

Mr. Velde. Not until the witness is identified. And it depends on 
whether or not the witness will answer the questions directed to him 
or whether he refuses to answer the questions directed to him. 

Mr. Kirkwood. May I have the privilege of my question, please? 

Mr. Velde. Proceed. 

Mr. Kirkwood. My question is, because of the fact that I am an ordi- 
nary workingman and have had no legal training, I have serious doubts 
but what I might have a little disadvantage when it comes to handling 
certain legal questions that may arise in this hearing. 

Mr. Velde. You have an attorney. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I do. 

Mr. Velde. And he is a qualified attorney, is he not of the bar of the 
State of Washington ? You will have the opportunity to confer with 
him at any time you care to. 

Mr. Kirkwood. The remainder of my question is — the main part 
of my question is, does my attorney — is my attorney allowed to speak 
in my behalf on legal questions that might arise in this hearing? 

Mr. Velde. Of course not. As you well know, the committee has 
certain rules regarding the right of the witness to counsel. You have 
a right to confer with counsel at any time you desire on questions of 
law, questions of constitutional rights. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Then I am to understand that I am not to have full 
use of my legal counsel, is that correct ? 

Mr. Velde. Will you proceed, Mr. Counsel, to identify the witness 
before we proceed further ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I don't believe my question has been fully answered. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, sir ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I will answer under protest, but I believe it is only 
fair that my question be answered. It has been set aside. 

Mr. Tavenner. Your counsel is fully informed of the rules of this 
committee. 

Mr. Kirkwood. By the way, what are the rules of the committee ? 
I am not fully informed. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, regular order. 

I ask that the witness be instructed to answer the question and to 
refrain from making comments or from asking questions. 

Mr. Velde. Certainly. The witness is directed to answer the ques- 
tion and give his identity. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6277 

And may I say to you, Mr. Witness, that upon your refusal to answer 
the question as to your identity, the committee will certainly take up 
the matter of a citation for contempt. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I am aware of that. 

Mr. Clardy. Will you please subside and hold your peace? You 
have no question pending at the moment other than as to your identity. 

Mr. Kirkwood. This is very easy for you fellows with 5 of you 
against 1. After all, I'm ill at ease. 

Mr. Velde. Order, please. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I will give you my name, if it is necessary. 

My name is Melvin W. Kirkwood. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Kirkwood ? 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwood. I still do not know the rules of this committee. The 
point I was trying to raise 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I again ask that the witness be in- 
structed to answer the questions or refuse to do so that we may take 
the proper steps. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I don't think the point 

Mr. Velde. Will you let me say this to you, Mr. Witness ? We have 
some witnesses who are called before this committee who can give us 
valuable information to help us in the work that we are directed to do 
and we cannot argue too long with you. 

I ask you as a man and as a patriotic citizen, if you are one, to answer 
the questions of the counsel and members of the committee in the best 
way that you know how without a long harangue. 

Now I direct you to answer the question as to where you were born. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, there is no doubt about my patriotism, sir. 
If you will ask me to speak on that, I would be very happy to tell you. 

Mr. Velde. I asked you to answer the question. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I haven't had a very important question put to me. 
I do not know the rules of the committee, I have not been issued a book 
of rules, and I think it is only right 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, regular order. 

Mr. Velde. Let us have regular order. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Am I being denied the privilege of reading the 
rules ? 

Mr. Velde. Answer the question, Mr. Kirkwood, as to where you 
were born. 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Just a minute. He may confer with counsel. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, I have a legal objection to answering any 
question of this committee. 

Mr. Scherer. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I be heard ? 

Mr. Velde. No, Mr. Scherer. The witness has not answered the 
question. 

Mr. Scherer. I understand that he has not answered. 

Mr. Velde. The gentleman from Ohio is not recognized until the 
witness gets a chance to answer the question. 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, I would ask this question. Am I to be the 
only one not to receive a copy of the rules of this committee ? I did 
not receive a copy of the rules. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, may I be heard ? 



6278 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Kirkwood. The gentleman over there apparently does not want 
this question answered. 

Mr. Velde. Does the witness refuse to answer the question as to his 
place of birth ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I am asking a question. 

Mr. Velde. I repeat, does the witness refuse to answer the question 
as to his place of birth ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I was born in Nome, Alaska, in the year 1912. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Ohio. 

Mr. Scherer. It is too late now. 

Mr. Velde. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Doyle. May I make just one statement, Mr. Chairman? 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. I wish the record to show that I recall that the dis- 
tinguished legal counsel of Mr. Kirkwood was also counsel yesterday, 
and I presume that, as a member of the bar appearing before this com- 
mittee, the counsel, now counsel for Mr. Kirkwood, is familiar with 
the committee's rules, because they were available yesterday ; they were 
distributed in the room yesterday, and I surmise that the rights of the 
witness are well known to his legal counsel. 

Mr. Hatten. May I answer that ? 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan, 

Mr. Clardy. I want to point out to the witness and to his counsel 
that it makes no difference whether you have read the rules or not. 
As the hearing proceeds, you will be asked questions. If there is any 
doubt in your mind as to whether under your constitutional rights 
you are bound to answer or not, you may confer with your counsel, as 
we have told you. Beyond that, you have no additional rights what- 
soever. 

Now you have no business at all attempting a filibuster as you are 
doing now and, if you proceed, I shall ask 

Mr. Kirkwood. Are you putting words in my mouth? 

Mr. Clardy. Be still until I have finished. 

If you proceed with this, I shall formally ask the committee to cite 
you for contempt, because I want the record to show at this time that 
in my considered judgment you have deliberately attempted to disrupt 
the actions of a committee of the Congress, and if you persist in it I 
shall do exactly what I said I would do. 

Now if you don't understand those instructions, confer with your 
counsel. 

Then I ask, Mr. Chairman, that we get on with the business of the 
hearing. 

Mr. Ktrkwood. It seems to me 

Mr. Clardy. Never mind. There is nothing addressed to you at the 
moment. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I think it is only right 

Mr. Velde. Will you proceed, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Now the committee 

Mr. Velde. There is no question pending at the present time. 

Mr. Kirkwood. This gentleman has made some very severe state- 
ments and charges, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Kirkwood, where do you now reside? 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6279 

Mr. Kirkwood. I live at 5106 Fifth Avenue NE. I answer that 
question 

Mr. Tavenner. In Seattle? 

Mr. Kirkwood. In Seattle, zone 5. 

I answer that question only under protest, because I recognize that 
coming out of the hysteria around this committee, it is likely that there 
might be hoodlum attacks around the house that belongs to my mother, 
which would disturb her as well as me — and it's mostly her that I'm 
worried about. 

I wanted to state that at this time, to make it clear that I answer 
this question under protest for those reasons. 

I still have a legal objection which I would like to state, if I may, if 
you don't mind. 

Mr. Clardy. The witness has answered the question, Mr. Chairman. 
There is no objection to be made after he has answered. 

Mr. Velde. Yes. You must not consider yourself privileged be- 
yond other witnesses who appear here, Mr. Kirkwood. 

And let me say this to you now : We would like to obtain some in- 
formation from you relative to our work here. However, if you do 
continue making these violent outbursts, these voluntary statements 
that have nothing whatsoever to do with the questions asked you, the 
Chair will be forced to ask the deputy sergeant-at-arms, the police 
officers here, to remove you from the hearing room. 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Kirkwood.) 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. May I consult with counsel for a moment, please ? 

Mr. Velde. Certainly. 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwood. Would you mind repeating the question, sir ? 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation, Mr. Kirkwood ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I am a longshoreman on the Seattle waterfront, 
working out of the longshore pool, which is, you might say, a permit — 
on a permit basis. 

Mr. Tavenner How long have you been engaged in work of that 
character? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I would say as an actual member of the pool ap- 
proximately a year, slightly over a year, but off and on, through extra 
work out of the fishermen's union, of which I am a member, it has 
been somewhat longer than that. I don't remember precisely how long. 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have a Coast Guard clearance ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. No, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Why not ? 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Kirkwood.) 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

_ Mr. Clardy. I want the record to suggest the fact that this is ob- 
viously a filibuster on his part. I want the record to show it clearly, 
because he has taken an inordinate amount of time to confer with 
his counsel and there seems to be amusement between the two of them 
over what they are discussing. I want that in the record because I 
am prepared to ask for a citation for contempt if it continues one more 
minute. 

Mr. Velde. Will the reporter please show the conferences between 
witness and his counsel ? 



6280 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. May I make this observation at this point ? 

I think we ought to go as far as possible in allowing every possible 
minute necessary for the witness to consult with counsel, and I assume 
that counsel here is qualified to advise the witness of his legal rights. 
And I want the record to show that unless there is manifest contempt 
in the attitude of the witness — I want counsel to take every minute 
that he feels is necessary, as far as I am concerned, to advise any wit- 
ness before this committee of his legal constitutional rights. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle, the Chair generally agrees with you on most 
of your propositions, but we cannot permit the counsel and witness to 
confer for so long a time over a very simple question which requires 
only a very simple answer, and delaying the work of the committee. 
As you know, we are all busy in Congress ; we don't have time to sit 
here all day and listen 

Mr. Doyle. I know that, Mr. Chairman, but I hesitate to cut short 
the time of the distinguished member of the bar before this committee 
in conference with his client, even though I may not agree with the 
witness. 

Mr. Velde. Has the witness had sufficient time to confer with his 
counsel to answer the question or does he refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I have had more than enough time. 

Mr. Velde. Then will you proceed to answer ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. What was the previous question, please ? 

Mr. Tavenner. You stated that you did not have a clearance, a 
Coast Guard clearance, and I asked you why it was that you did not 
have one. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I have to answer that question in this way. It is 
my conviction that I must answer it in this way : Because I honestly 
believe that this committee, by what I have learned of its activity in 
other cities, has as one of its purposes the slapping of a witness 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to 
answer the question and to desist from making propaganda speeches. 

Mr. Velde. Yes, certainly. We have heard enough of this all over 
the land to know exactly what you are trying to do. 

Now I insist that you answer the question "Yes" or "No" or in as 
simple terms as possible, and you are so directed to do. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I believe I am stating a legal objection. 

Mr. Clardy. No, you are not, Witness, and you know you are not. 

Mr. Kirkwood. That is not true. You are putting words in my 
mouth or thoughts in my mind. I don't think even you can agree 

Mr. Clardy. You have been directed to answer the question. Now 
proceed to do so and desist from the party line tactics, Witness. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, I have no other choice than to answer this 
question in the following way: that I consider this question irrelevant 
on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Clardy. Very well. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Scherer. He has not invoked the fifth amendment properly be- 
cause he considers the question irrelevant. He must refuse to answer 
claiming the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Clardy. He has counsel there. If he doesn't know how to in- 
voke it properly, I am certainly not going to help this witness. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I am very sorry if I made a misstatement. 

Mr. Clardy. No, you are not, and you know you are not. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6281 

Mr. Kirkwood. I would certainly appreciate the chairman instruct- 
ing Mr. Clardy 

Mr. Clardy. You have been scurrilous enough in the document that 
jou have circulated. I shall not, as far as I can help it, indulge you to 
do any more as long as I am on the committee. 

Mr. Velde. Let me first ask, did you circulate this document that is 
presently before this committee ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Pardon me, sir? 

Mr. Velde. Did you circulate this document ? Did you sign it ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I believe there is a question. Is there not a question 
before me ? 

Mr. Velde. Will you answer the question ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Xow I have two questions before me. 

Mr. Velde. Do you have any question as to the document that I am 
referring to ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, now I am confused. I will have to consult 
with counsel now. I have two questions before me. 

Mr. Velde. You may consult with your counsel. 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwood. Is the previous question waived or has it been 
answered because of the objections of 

Mr. Velde. I will waive all previous questions that have been asked. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Just a minute, Mr. Scherer, please. 

Mr. Scherer. I have tried four times now to get the floor. 

Mr. Velde. I will certainly give you the floor when I get through. 

I want to hand you a document which is purportedly signed by you, 
Witness, and ask whether or not this is your signature ? 

Mr. Clardy. Or a reproduction of it ? 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood examined the sheet referred to and 
then conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle, there is a question pending. 

Mr. Doyle. I think before the witness answers it, the record should 
show that he has had the benefit of more than a minute of uninter- 
rupted conference with his counsel. 

Mr. Clardy. Considerably more than that, Mr. Doyle. You are 
being very generous. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, I would like to point out to these constant 
objections to my consulting with my attorney. You have to remember 
I have no legal experience. 

Mr. Clardy. You have been asked if that is your signature and it 
shouldn't take an attorney to tell you whether it is your signature. 
You should know that better than he does, and you know it. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair concurs. You can give a very simple answer 
to that question. 

Is it your signature ? 

Mr. Kirkw t ood. It does happen to be my signature. 

Mr. Clardy. Thank goodness. 

Mr. Velde. Now may I ask you this question ? 

Are you a member of the Communist 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood began to confer with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Velde. Will you listen, please ? 

Are you presently a member of the Communist Party ? 



62S2 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Kirkwood. Of course, if I have to answer a loaded question like 
that, standing on my rights, under the fifth amendment, I refuse to 
incriminate myself. 

This amendment was written to protect the innocent and I thereby 
stand on the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution. 

Mr. Velde. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I obviously must give the same answer as to the 
previous question. 

Mr. Velde. Do you have anything further, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy ? 

Mr. Clardy. I don't think it would serve any useful purpose, so I 
pass. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer? 

Mr. Sckerer. No questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes ; I have a question. 

Mr. Kirkwood, this sheet which you have identified, with your sig- 
nature affixed thereto, did you write that ? I mean did you write the 
language — did you author the language that is over your signature? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Yes ; I wrote the leaflet. 

Mr. Doyle. All of it? 

Mr. Kirkwood. All of it. 

Mr. Doyle. That is all. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Tavenner, did you get the educational qualifica- 
tions of this gentleman? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir ; I never got that far. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I suggest, in view of the language in 
this document, that it might be well to get that. 

Mr. Velde. Yes ; I concur with you on that. 

Maybe counsel had better proceed and find out the general back- 
ground of the witness. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, Mr. Chairman 

Mr. Velde. Will you let the counsel address the questions ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee, please, what your for- 
mal educational training has been ? 

Mr. Kirkwood My formal education consists of grammar and high- 
school education. 

Mr. Tavenner. How have you been employed since 1940 ? 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwood. It is a little difficult to go back that far and remem- 
ber in detail; but in 1940 I was employed as a boatyard worker in 
Ballard. 

In early 1941 through 1945 — I should say 1942 until 1945, I was a 
member of the Armed Forces, for which I volunteered. I went through 
six amphibious assaults on Japanese-held islands. 

Mr. Scherer. May I interrupt ? 

Were you a member of the Communist Party when you were a mem- 
ber of the Armed Forces of this country? 

Mr. Klrkwood. Now are you kidding? 

Mr. Velde. No ; he is very serious. I can guarantee you that. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I can answer that the same way as I answered the 
previous loaded questions, sir; I can answer them no other way. I 
stand on the fifth amendment for the reasons previously stated. 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6283 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you come to Seattle immediately upon your 
being released from the Armed Forces? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I did, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. And j 7 ou have remained in work here since that 
time? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I have. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you prepare the leaflet in question with the 
help of others? 

Mr. Kirkwood. No, sir. This is something that I personally felt — 
seeing that I had been subpenaed by this committee I felt sincerely and 
honestly that this committee, judging from my having read about them 
in the press and elsewhere, intended to put me on the spot ; so, to put it 
very simply, I did some simple research and wrote this myself. 

Mr. Tavenner. I note that you use this language : 

If yon are a member of the local, take the floor and urge the local to carry out 
the plan to call stop-work meetings while the Velde commitee is here fouling up 
the air. 

Now what plan were you speaking of? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I have another copy here, sir, if I may refer to it. 
And it happens to be on white paper. I was not admitted to the hear- 
ings previously, but I heard it on TV mentioned as a yellow sheet, 
which has a double implication. 

Mr. Clardy. Wasn't the yellow sheet the copy that you circulated ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I was aware of the double inference, which I think 
was unfair. 

Mr. Clardy. If there was anything unfair about it, I wish it had 
been deliberate. 

Mr. Kirkwood. May I have the privilege of reading the entire sheet ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No. Just answer the questions, please. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I believe that the public, having heard so many 
references to this sheet, might like to hear the entire leaflet read. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. I ask that the witness be directed to 
confine his answer to the question and not again go afield with a Com- 
munist harangue. 

Mr. Velde. Certainly. We are more interested in the question of 
whether or not you as a — I presume that you are a Communist at the 
present time ; I take that as a conclusion from the evidence that you 
have given here today. Can you, in this great city of Seattle, cause a 
work stoppage by circulating such a type of leaflet ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I had no purpose in causing a work stoppage, Mr. 
Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Isn't that what you ask in your leaflet ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. May I explain ? If I may have the courtesy of giv- 
ing my answer to a question that has been asked me, the reference in 
that particular part of a paragraph — now I notice that only a portion 
of a paragraph is mentioned here : Longshore local 19 — I can't give 
you the exact date — but some time back, when it was first announced 
that the Velde committee was planning to come to Seattle, had voted 
to hold stop-work meetings to protest this meeting. 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Kirkwood.) 

Mr. Kirkwood. And my counsel, having a legal mind, points out if 
they were attacked 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. That is not a legal question. 



6284 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, that is just what counsel has been 
doing all through this testimony. lie is advising this man not on legal 
questions only but on factual matters and telling him what to say, and 
it was clearly demonstrated by the answer just made by the witness. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair certainly concurs with the gentleman from 
Ohio in that particular case. 

Mr. Hatten. May I answer that, Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Clardy. Counsel, you know the rules and you know that you 
are not permitted to address us; but you may get an opportunity, if 
I have my way, of answering it at some other tribunal. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I don't see why counsel should be threatened. 

Mr. Velde. I believe that you know, Mr. Witness, if you treated a 
court of law this way, you would be removed from the courtroom. 

Mr. Kirkwood. My dear sir, I am sure you are aware that if I were 
in a legal court of law, my counsel could speak in my behalf, is that 
not correct ? 

Mr. Velde. Counsel, you may proceed. 

Mr. Kirkwood. You know it is correct. 

Mr. Velde. Will you please subside ? 

Mr. Tavenner. You say there was a plan afoot to cause a work 
stoppage ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I did not say any such thing. 

Mr. Tavex ner. What did you say ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I said a motion had been passed. I was given to 
believe from what I had read in a publication of local 19 that they 
bad voted to hold stop- work meetings and to attend this hearing in 
force. Having been at the hearing yesterday when even I, as a wit- 
ness, was not even allowed to come in because I did not have a pass, 
probably the longshoremen, had one of their members been attacked, 
would have been forced to stay out in the hall or on the courthouse 
lawn, which I am sure would • 

Mr. Tavenner. As a matter of fact, you showed your subpena to 
the officers and you were permitted to come in, weren't you ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I was not allowed to come in yesterday because 1 
had not been subpenaed for that date, and I objected to your door- 
man — the football player. $ 

Mr. Tavenner. And then you were admitted, were you not? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I was not admitted, sir. I was told I could only be 
admitted on the date subpenaed. I was not allowed to hear the charges 
that were made. I had to go across the street and listen and watch on 
television. 

Mr. Clardy. You were subpenaed for today and you are here, so 
that is all that is important. 

Mr. Velde. Yes; and I think our counsel can very well testify that 
charges were made against you by Mrs. Hartle and you have an oppor- 
tunity now to deny or admit those charges. 

Air. Tavexner. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, in the first place, the people I associate with 
I don't think would have much respect for me if I admitted to having 
anything to do with any stool pigeon. 

Mr. Tavenner. Let me interrupt you at that point. 

We have received communications here from three unions in which 
they express their opposition to the use of the fifth amendment by wit- 
nesses here, and you say that your associates would not have respect 
for you. 

Mr. Kirkwood. My associates. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6285 

Mr. Tavenner. You are evidently not speaking of your associates 
in the union, are you ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Yes, I am speaking of my associates in several labor 
organization — not in the ones from which you have read the telegrams, 
because I did not circulate this leaflet among those men; I am not 
working directly with them. I circulated these only among those 
people with whom I closely work. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you associated with Mrs. Barbara Hartie in 
the Communist Party ? 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwood. It is obvious, sir, that I can't answer that. I must 
stand on the fifth amendment for the same reason that I have before. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Hartie identified you as a person known to 
her to be a member of the Communist Party 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, there is all kinds of things stool pigeons can 
do. They can identify black being white or vice versa very nicely 
and are believed apparently by this committee — are given all kinds of 
prompting and help. I was allowed in the hearings this morning and 
noticed particularly the help that was given Mrs. Hartie when she 
was on the stand — leading questions : "Now, Mrs. Hartie, is it not true 
that—?" 

Mr. Tavenner. Was there any statement made by her false to your 
knowledge ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, I won't answer that question. 

Mr. Tavenner. You won't answer ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. As a matter of fact, I didn't listen to enough. 

Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed iu 
answer the question. 

Mr. Velde. Certainly. 

Mr. Sciierer. As to whether there was any statement made by Mrs. 
Hartie that was false. 
_ Mr. Velde. The witness heard the testimony of Mrs. Hartie rela- 
tive to himself. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I can do nothing else but stand as I have here. 

Mr. Velde. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I stand on the fifth amendment for the same reasons. 
It is another loaded question to lead to another question which will 
involve me further and further until I will be trapped and accused 
of either perjury or cited for contempt, neither of which I want to 
happen to me. 

Mr. Tavenner. You can't be trapped for perjury as long as you 
tell the truth. 

Mr. Scherer. Let us see, Mr. Chairman, whether he will answer 
this question. Certainly he will answer this one. 

Have you ever engaged in any espionage activities on behalf of the 
Communist Party ? 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Scherer. I asked you if you had ever been engaged in any 
espionage activities. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Your drama moves me very deeply. Your drama 
moves me very deeply. 

Mr. Clardy. Yes, from the smile on your face, that is very apparent. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I recognize in that, Mr. Scherer — I presume I pro- 
nounce that correctly ? ■ 

Mr. Scherer. That is right. 



6286 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Kirkwood. Another loaded question. I think it is obvious that 
I have not been engaged in anything of that sort ; otherwise I would 
have been prosecuted for it. 

Mr. Scherer. Have you ? You said it is obvious that you have not. 

Mr. Kirkwood. For fear that this is leading to another trap, sir, 
I must refuse to answer for the same reasons that I have not answered 
previous questions. 

Mr. Scherer. Do you mean that you are refusing to answer as to 
whether or not you have been engaged in any espionage activities in 
behalf of the Communist Party ? 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Kirkwood.) 

Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Chairman, the record should show that 
the question was discontinued so that the witness could consult with 
his counsel, which he has been doing and is still doing. 

Mr. Velde. The record will so show. 

Mr. Kirkwood. It seems to me that the gentlemen of this commit- 
tee — and I use the word advisedly — are attempting to make a great 
deal of my conferring with counsel. I have already told you that I 
am a simple workingman, that I do not know some of the legal aspects 
of what might occur. 

Mr. Scherer. Is there any legal problem involved in the question 
as to whether or not you have been engaged in espionage activities, 



sir 



Mr. Kirkwood. My dear sir, had I ever been engaged in any sort 
of espionage, I am sure that I would have been prosecuted for it. 

Mr. Scherer. Will you answer the question as to whether you have 
or have not been so engaged ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I still refuse on the previous grounds. I think that 
is a question 

Mr. Scherer. You have refused to answer on the grounds that it 
would incriminate you, is that correct ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. You are are trying to smear me indirectly by the 
use of that question, which I fear will lead me into something else ; and 
I certainly, as I have stated, feel that the committee member is well 
aware that had I been engaged in espionage, you would be aware of it. 

Mr. Scherer. Maybe we haven't found it all out yet. 

Mr. Kirkwood. My dear sir, I mentioned that I was in the United 
States Navy for 3V£ years. 

Mr. Scherer. But you refuse to tell 

Mr. Kirkwood. And I have an honorable discharge. 

Mr. Scherer. Just a minute. 

Mr. Kirkwood. And I was screened by Navy Intelligence very 
thoroughly and accepted for naval-intelligence work. 

Mr. Scherer. You have refused to tell us, while you were in the 
Navy, whether you were a member of the Communist conspiracy or 
not. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I think it is obvious to anyone that the insistence of 
the committee member to put me on the spot with this question is like 
asking the question "When did you stop beating your wife?" 

Mr. Scherer. I will ask you the question I asked a little while ago ; 

While you were in the Navy, were you a member of the Communist 
conspiracy ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. First of all, you are assuming there is a conspiracy 
of some kind in which I am involved, and I will have to refuse to 
answer that question, as I have the others. I am sure you are aware 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6287 

of that; I mean I think that would have occurred to you before you 
asked me. 

Mr. Scherer. Again you have not answered the question I last 
asked you as to whether or not you have been engaged in any espionage 
activities. You said if you had, you would have been prosecuted. 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Ilatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwocd. If I were charged with a crime or with any sort of 
espionage in a legal court of law, I would hesitate not at all to answer 
that question yes or no. 

Mr. Clardy. What would that answer be ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, you are asking two questions in a different 
way. Isn't that true? You know it, yourself. 

Mr. Clardy. It is inconceivable to me, Witness, that any honest, 
patriotic American citizen would hesitate for one second to answer 
that question if he were innocent and had never engaged in espionage 
against his country. You have convinced me, sir, that possibly you 
have. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Mr. Clardy 

Mr. Clardy. Never mind. I am not asking you any question. 

Mr. Kirkwood. You made a long statement to me. 

Mr. Clardy. I have no desire to hear anything further. 

Mr. Chairman, I ask regular order. 

Mr. Velde. Regular order. 

Counsel will proceed to ask further questions. 

Mr. Tavexxer. Did I understand you to say that while you were 
in the Armed Forces of the United States, you were in Naval Intelli- 
gence ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Yes, sir — not directly in the Naval Intelligence unit, 
but in a photographic unit which was under Naval Intelligence, if you 
understand what I mean. Certain parts of the Navy were, say, under 
the Bureau of Aeronautics — certain parts of the Bureau of Aeronautics 
were under certain sections of the Navy apparatus. My particular 
work, which was combat photographer with Amphibious Group 3M5 
was under Naval Intelligence and I was very carefully screened, very 
thoroughly screened and was accepted without question from that 
time on. 

Mr. Scherer. The Rosenbergs were screened, too. 

Mr. Tavexxer. At the time you were screened for that service, were 
you a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Well, now, are you kidding? You keep popping 
these questions about Communist Party. I have answered various 
phases of that question at least a half dozen times. 

Mr. Tavenner. You are trying to draw the inference that there 
was nothing wrong with j^our record whatever b3cause you were thor- 
oughly screened. Now I am bringing the question right to the point. 

Were you a member of the Communist Party at that time? 

Mr. Kirkwood. The United States Navy had no reason to believe 
there was anything wrong with my work. As a matter of fact, one 
of the last jobs I was entrusted with was going to the Battle of Leyte 
in what was a top-secret job in the photographic darkroom. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to 
answer. 

Mr. Velde. The witness seems to have a great desire to make a 
speech. 

Let me tell you this, Mr. Witness — will you give me your attention, 
please ? 



6288 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

If you will answer the questions put to you by counsel instead of 
refusing to answer them 

Mr. Kirkwood. I am not refusing. I answer in my own way in my 
own defense. 

Mr. Velde. Then we will certainly be all inclined to give you a 
chance to make a speech. But we will not sit up here wasting our time 
and the time of the Congress in listening to you make speeches in 
answer to these questions when you refuse to answer the questions. 

Now do you understand that clearly ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. It is very curious to me — I heard at least two 
speeches by one individual on your committee. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, regular order. 

Mr. Velde. Regular order. 

Will you answer the question as submitted to you by counsel? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I have already answered that question, I believe,, 
sir. Or do you have another question ? 

Mr. Tavenner. I did not hear your answer, if you gave it. 

At the time you stated that you were thoroughly screened for the 
work in which you were engaged while in the Navy, were you a member 
of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. That because it is another phase or another type of 
loaded question, I decline to answer for the reasons previously stated 
on the previous questions ; in other words, I stand on the fifth amend- 
ment, which was originated for the purpose of the protection of the 
innocent. 

Mr. Tavenner. Now after your return from service to the United 
States. 

(At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in any teaching activity in the 
Pacific Northwest Labor School ? 

(Mr. Kirkwood continues to confer with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwood. No. It is my opinion that the Seattle Labor School 
which you have mentioned, Mr. Counselor or Counsel, has in some way 
or another been labeled "subversive" by somebody or other — I am not 
sure where it was. I think I have heard something about it. I am 
afraid I am going to answer that question the same as I have previous- 
ly ; rather than incriminate myself or to appear as a witness before 
myself, I will stand again on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question at that point? 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. Will you listen to me now, please ? 

(Mr. Kirkwood has been conferring with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Clardy. You don't have to confer with him before I inquire. 
Wait until I finish. 

Do you know whether or not the school in question was subversive ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Another loaded question, Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. It is a plain question, and if you give an honest answer 
you can't endanger yourself. 

Mr. Kirkwood. My honest answer to that is that it is another loaded 
question and I stand on the same grounds as the previous ones. 

Mr. Clardy. My question merely went, Mr. Chairman, to whether 
he had any knowledge about it. 

I ask that he be directed to answer. 

Mr. Velde. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I have answered the question, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Clardy. Is that the answer you will give ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6289 

Mr. Kirkwood. I stand on the grounds of the fifth amendment. I 
refuse to bear witness against myself. 

Mr. Clardy. Very well. 

Mr. Tavenner. 1 have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson ? 

Mr. Jackson. I have no questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer? 

Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I think I heard you say that you circulated this sheet 
which you have identified as having authored and signed your name 
to entirely by yourself, is that correct ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. That is absolutely right, sir. I would like to under- 
line that. This was entirely my own idea, my own work — the typing, 
the mimeographing, and the distribution. 

Mr. Doyle. How many copies did you have typed and distributed? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I managed to scrape up, I think, a ream and a half 
of paper, I believe, and ran it off myself. I did not have it typed nor 
distributed, sir. I distributed them myself and typed them myself. 

Mr. Doyle. That is about 750 sheets, isn't it? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I would judge that is a pretty accurate estimate. 

Mr. Doyle. I think you said you distributed this amongst the men 
you worked with ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. That is right. 

Mr. Doyle. And those are longshoremen in Seattle ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Longshoremen and fishermen and warehousemen 
who work from the same 

Mr. Doyle. Are they all members of local 19 ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. No; they are not all members of local 19. Most of 
the men who work the dock, I would judge — and I don't know the 
accurate figures — but I presume that most men who work the docks 
are members of local 19. 

Mr. D'»yle. Are you a member of local 19 ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. No, sir, I am not a member of local 19. I am a 
member of local 3 of the fishermen's union. 

Mr. Doyle. Were you ever a member of local 19 ? 

ir '". Ktrkwood. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Are you an officer of the fishermens' union now? 

Mr. Kirkwood. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Were you ever? 

Mr. Kirkwood. No, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. What union are you a member of ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Local 3, the fishermen's union. The Fishermen and 
Allied Workers it is. I believe it is local 3 — the official name. 

Mr. Doyle. At the time you were screened by the Navy, were you 
asked the question whether or not you were a member of the Commu- 
nist Party ? 

( At this point Mr. Kirkwood conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Kirkwcod. At the risk 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Kirkwood.) 

Mr. Doyle. I notice that you are conferring with counsel, and that 
is always your right before you answer a question. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I am sorry. I was in doubt about this question be- 
cause my impression is that this might be a loaded question. 

Mr. Doyle. No ; there is no load in it. It is a blank cartridge. 



6290 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Kirkwood. I am afraid, sir, that I will just stand on the fifth 
amendment, as I have for the previous stated reasons, for fear that 
there might follow from this some means from which I might be forced 
to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Doyle. Of course the record will show how you answered the 
question. 

Mr. Kirkwooo. I am certain it will. 

Mr. Doyle. What discharge did you receive from the Navy ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Honorable discharge. 

Mr. Doyle. And you said you were in top secret work at Leyte? 

Mr. Kirkwood. I was on a ship and connected with the Intelligence 
Department on that ship, and my duty at this particular instance of 
which I spoke was to make some prints of negatives that had been 
sent us from the aircraft squadron that had photographed the terrain 
of the beach that was to be attacked by our forces; and because of the 
fact that at that time no one of us knew what objectives we were 
headed for, it was necessary — the Naval Intelligence felt — — 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Witness, I didn't realize that in asking you this 
question you were going to describe it. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I wanted to give a full explanation. 

Mr. Doyle. And your part was in top secret ? 

Mr. Kirkwood. Yes ; it was top secret. 

Mr. Doyle. It probably is still top secret. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Doyle. Except as you have given it to us today. 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Mr. Kirkwood.) 

Mr. Doyle. Now I have noticed that you emphasized 4 or 5 times to- 
day that you were rather an unschooled and uneducated person, not 
familiar with your legal rights. 

Mr. Kirkwood. I wouldn't put it quite that way, sir. 

Mr. Doyle. Just let me state this, Mr. Chairman : 

As a lawyer I have taken particular pains to notice that this gentle- 
man, in my judgment, not only is pretty well familiar with his legal 
rights, but he is pretty well acquainted with legal verbiage that we 
trained lawyers use — and far from being an unschooled and inex- 
perienced man. I submit for the record that his statements and his 
answers show that he is very well informed. 

Mr. Velde. I think the gentleman is absolutely right, and if you 
would give us the benefit of some of that information our country 
would benefit by it greatly. 

Mr. Doyle. And I will say this to you, sir ; that while I interrupted 
my distinguished chairman in order to have the record show that I 
wanted you to have the fullest possible opportunity to consult with 
your counsel without interruption, I want it to further show that I 
consider it quite a compliment, after meeting you and hearing you, to 
be one of the Members of Congress described by you as a "rat." 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, may I point out one thing ? 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. This witness has testified that he prepared this docu- 
ment himself, with no help from anyone. And he disclaims any knowl- 
edge of the law whatsoever. He has made a point of that repeatedly. 

Now the language in the document indicates exactly as you have 
said, Mr. Doyle. I doubt very much whether he prepared it without 
help from someone or, if he was telling the truth when he said that, 
then he was perjuring himself when he said the other. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6291 

I think we should take that up in executive session. One of the two 
can't stand. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Mr. Clardy 

Mr. Clardy. Never mind. I am not asking you anything. 

Mr. Kirkwood. Mr. Clardy has made a speech, I believe. 

Mr. Clardy. There is no question pending. 

Mr. Kirkwood. He has made a statement 

Mr. Velde. As I mentioned before, if you will give us the benefit of 
your information concerning Communist activity and subversive 
activity, then certainly we would all be seriously inclined to allow you 
to make a speech, but when you take the fifth amendment we cannot 
waste our time listening to a lot of haranguing here. 

Do you have an}' questions, Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. I have no questions. 

Mr. Velde. I want to say before we dismiss this witness that I 
appreciate the fact that he did say that he was the sole person responsi- 
ble for this diatribe which is on the yellow sheet, because we have 
received communications from legitimate labor organizations, includ- 
ing the Sailors' Union of the Pacific and including the Marine, Cooks 
and Stewards, which fully support the work that we are attempting 
to do here, "rejecting the filthy rag," as is described in the Sailors' 
Union of the Pacific letter, and as is described in the telegram received 
from the Marine, Cooks and Stewards — 

Rest assured that Mr. Kirkwood and his illiterate language does not speak for 
the rank and file in the maritime industries. 

The witness is dismissed. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Velde. Will counsel call the next witness ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Jerry William Tyler. 

Mr. Velde. In the testimony that you are about to give before this 
committee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Tyler. I do. 

Mr. Velde. You may be seated. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF JERRY WILLIAM TYLER, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, C. T. HATTEN 

Mr. Tyler. My name is Jerry William Tyler. 
Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ? 
Mr. Tyler. I am, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself ? 
Mr. Hatten. My name is C. T. Hatten, attorney in Seattle. 
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born ? 
Mr. Tyler. I was born in the town of Shenandoah, Iowa, November 
11,1911. 
Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside ? 
Mr. Tyler. I reside at 4056 Prince Street in Seattle. 
Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle ? 
Mr. Tyler. Roughly, I think about 12 years. 
Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation ? 
Mr. Tyler. May I consult with counsel, sir ? 
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. 
(At this point Mr. Tyler conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 



6292 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Tyler. Mr. Chairman, through my own choice, my own reason- 
ing, I will decline to answer this or any other question of this com- 
mittee under the rights guaranteed me by the fifth amendment of 
the Constitution, which, in my opinion, does not hold me duty-bound 
to testify against myself in any way. 

Mr. Clardy. Did I understand you correctly to say that you are 
making a blanket refusal to answer any further questions? 

Mr. Tyler. This or any other question of a similar type. 

Mr. Clardy. I want the record to be perfectly clear on that, Mr. 
Chairman. 

You don't know what the questions are going to be, but you are not 
going to answer them under any circumstances, you say. 

Mr. Sciierer. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Vei<de. Mr. Scherer. 

Mr. Sciierer. I submit that this witness is clearly in contempt. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the witness be excused. 

Mr. Clardy. First let us get the answer to be sure. 

Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct him to answer the pending ques- 
tion. 

Mr. Velde. May we have the question again, please? 

Mr. Tavenner. My question, Mr. Chairman, was this : 

Will you please advise the committee as to your occupation ? 

Mr. Velde. Now, as I understand it, you have refused to answer 
that question, claiming your privilege under the fifth amendment? 

Mr. Tyler. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair directs you to answer that question. 

Mr. Tyler. You mean you want me to answer this question again, 
just as if this was the first time it was asked? 

Mr. Velde. Yes, under the direction of the committee. 

Mr. Tyler. You mean I am to answer this just as if this was the 
first time it was asked? Is that what you are driving at ? 

Mr. Jackson. You have been directed by the Chair to answer the 
question again precisely as if you had been asked in the first instance. 

Mr. Tyler. I refuse to answer the question under the fifth amend- 
ment. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. Mav I ask the witness this question, please? 

(At this point Mr. Tyler conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Doyle. Witness, do you hear me? 

Mr. Tyler. Yes, sir; I hear you. 

Mr. Doyle. Your answer now that you refuse to answer this ques- 
tion, claiming your rights under the fifth amendment, has been given, 
by you after you have consulted with counsel, hasn't it? 

I saw you consulting with counsel. 

Mr. Tyler. Well, now, counsel asked me a question here, and I am 
not quite 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Doyle is asking you about the question propounded 
by counsel. 

Mr. Doyle. You heard our legal counsel's question as to your occu- 
pation. 

Mr. Tyler. Oh, yes, I heard that. 

Mr. Doyle. And you refused to answer that, and you stood upon 
your constitutional right under the fifth amendment, is that correct ?.' 

Mr. Tyler. That is correct. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6293 

Mr. Doyle. And you made that claim to fifth amendment protec- 
tion after consulting with your legal counsel by yourself? I saw you 
consulting with him. 

Mr. Tvler. That is correct. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Clardt. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan. 

Mr. Clardt. May I propound a single question before we excuse 
the witness ? 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. So that the record will be clear, when you answered 
the last question the first time, you appended to your answer the 
blanket, flat statement that you were not going to answer that question 
or any further questions on the grounds of the fifth amendment. 

Now what I want to know is this 

Mr. Tyler. Oh, no. I didn't mean that. 

Mr. Clardy. Then will you continue to answer the questions from 
here on out ? 

Mr. Tyler. Similar ones is what I meant, but — I mean I get fouled 
up on that language. 

Mr. Clardy. What did you mean, so that the record will be clear? 

Mr. Tyler. Any question which I feel might tend to incriminate me 
or force me to bear witness against myself. 

Mr. Jackson. That is quite a different statement than the one that 
you made at the outset. 

Mr. Tyler. I agree. I am a little fluttery around the edges. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. I withdraw my request. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I think we should advise the witness 
that if he had persisted we would have had no alternative but to cite 
him for contempt. 

Mr. Tyler. It just shows you how easy it is to get in a jam. 

Mr. Clardy. So I suggest that you answer the future questions. 

Mr. Velde. Proceed, counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. What has been your educational training, Mr. 
Tyler? 

(At this point Mr. Tyler conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Tyler. I will have to decline to answer the question with the 
same reasons as stated before. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, as a matter of proper identification, 
it seems to me that the question is entirely within the prerogative of 
the committee, and I request that the witness be directed to answer. 

Mr. Velde. The Chair concurs wholeheartedly. The matter of iden- 
tification of the witness is essential to this investigation and to this 
hearing, so you are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Tyler. The reason I hesitate, sir — I have heard of certain edu- 
cational institutions being cited as subversive, and 1 am afraid that 
that would lay me open to some further questions. 

I think I should have the protection of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you attend any educational institutions which 
you have reason to believe were subversive ? 

Mr. Tyler. I will decline to answer for the same reasons as before. 

Mr. Jackson. Did you go to grade school ? 

Mr. Tyler. I decline to answer for the same reasons, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to 
answer as to whether he had elementary-school training. 



6294 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Velde. The Chair can see no reason why that would incrimi- 
nate the witness, so you are directed to answer the question, Mr. Wit- 
ness. 

(At this point Mr. Tyler conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Tyler. Is this question merely for my formal education, sir ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes ; your formal education. At least, that was what 
I understood counsel to intend. 

Am I correct in that assumption, counsel ? 

Mr. Tavenner. That is correct. 

Mr. Tyler. I wouldn't be able to ask if that is as far as I would 
have to answer and still have the fifth amendment rights 

Mr. Velde. Do you refuse to answer, on the ground that it will in- 
criminate you, upon direction by the Chair ? 

Mr. Tyler. Upon my attorney's advice, I can answer any questions 
concerning my formal education. 

Mr. Jackson. Witness, your education in elementary schools, if you 
had such training, is part of your formal educational background. 

(At this point Mr. Tyler conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Tyler. Well, I finished grade school and high school in the city 
of Shenandoah, Iowa. That was in 1929 that I graduated from high 
school. I had 1 year of college in the little town of LeMoyne, Iowa. 
After that it was the middle of the depression and I wandered around 
the country for a few years — and I took a little course in a junior 
college in Modesto, Calif. 

That was the extent of my education. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you conduct a course during the fall term of 
1946 at the Pacific Northwest Labor School in Seattle t 

( At this point Mr. Tyler conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Tyler. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds 
as before, sir — the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any knowledge of Communist Party 
connections and control of the Pacific Northwest Labor School ? 

Mr. Tyler. I decline to answer on the same grounds, sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Barbara Hartle testified this morning before 
this committee and, in the course of her testimony, she identified you 
as a person known to her to have been a member of the Communist 
Party. Was she correct in her identification of you as a Communist 
Party member or was she in error about it ? 

Mr. Tyler. I will have to decline to answer the question on the 
same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of the Communist Party at any 
time between 1946 and July 1950? 

Mr. Tyler. I will have to decline to answer the question on the same 
grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Tyler. I decline to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you at any time been a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. Tyler. Same answer, same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson ? 

Mr. Jackson. No questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy ? 

Mr. Clardy. I have none. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6295 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. Yes. 

Are you now an officer in any organized labor group ? 

Mr. Tyler. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment, sir. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. I ask that he be directed to answer that question. 

Mr. Velde. Certainly. There is nothing wrong with being an officer 
of a labor group. How could that possibly incriminate you ? 

You are directed to answer the question. 

(At this point Mr. Tyler conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Mr. Tyler. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds, 
sir, and the questions that might follow — because of questions that 
might follow. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier, do you have any questions ? 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. Velde. Nor have I any further questions. 

I hope that the committee members agree that we should proceed 
with the particular witnesses at hand. The first witness we had this 
afternoon consumed 1 hour, the second witness consumed 15 minutes, 
and we have gotten no facts about infiltration by the Communist Party 
in the Northwest area whatsoever. So I suggest that the witness be 
dismissed — and he is dismissed. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Velde. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Tavenner. Theodore Raymond Astley, will you please come 
forward ? 

Mr. Velde. In the testimony that you are about to give before this 
committee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Astley. I do. 

I ask that the TV cameras be taken off. 

Mr. Velde. According to the rules of the committee, the witness has 
the right to ask that he not be telecast during his particular hearing, 
so I now direct the cameras to be turned off of the witness during the 
time that he testifies. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please, sir ? 

TESTIMONY OF THEODORE RAYMOND ASTLEY, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, KENNETH A. MacDONALD 

Mr. Astley. My name is Theodore Raymond Astley. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel? 

Mr. Astley. I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record ? 

Mr. MacDonald. Kenneth A. MacDonald. I am an attorney in 
Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born, Mr. Astley? 

Mr. Astley. To the best of my knowledge I was born in St. Joseph's 
Mercy Hospital in Atlanta, Ga. 

Mr. Tavenner. When? 

Mr. Astley. April 4, 1920. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you now reside? 

Mr. Astley. Seattle. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle? 



6296 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Astley. Since late 1944 or early 1945. I don't recall exactly. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Astley. May I ask that the photographers go ahead and take 
their pictures and then leave so that they won't interrupt here? It is 
sort of nerve racking to have these lights in my eyes. 

Mr. Velde. The committee would greatly appreciate it if the still 
photographers would take any pictures they desire and then desist 
from taking further pictures while the witness is on the stand. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your occupation, please, sir? 

Mr. Astley. I am a dogger. 

Mr. Tavenner. What do you mean by that ? 

Mr. Astley. I am a sawmill worker. That is a job in a sawmill. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been so engaged? 

Mr. Astley. I have worked in a sawmill now since — I believe, early 
1949, roughly. That is correct within a year or so, I believe. 

Mr. Tavenner. How were you employed in Seattle between 1944 
and 1949? 

Mr. Astley. Well, let me see. In 1944 — I don't know ; I can't re- 
member exactly when I did come down from Alaska, but I had been 
stationed in Alaska and was put on temporary duty here in Seattle 
while I was in the Army. And after that, after I was discharged from 
the Army, I got a job at the University of Washington as a vocational 
counselor, and I was on that job until around the middle of 1948, 
approximately. 

Mr. Tavenner. When did that work at the University of Washing- 
ton begin? 

Mr. Astley. 2 weeks after I was discharged from the Army. 

Mr. Tavenner. And that was in 1944 ? 

Mr. Astley. 1946. I was in the Army here in Seattle from 1944 
through 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. So that from 1946 until 1948 you were a vocational 
counselor at the University of Washington ? 

Mr. Astley. Yes. 

Mr. Tavenner. Just briefly, what were your duties as vocational 
counselor ? 

Mr. Astley. Well, you are aware of the fact that there was a GI bill 
of rights, Public Law 346, I believe it was, and then a vocational re- 
habilitation bill — I don't even recall the number of that — and veterans 
of World War II were entitled to educational benefits under the GI 
bill of rights, Public Law 346, and disabled veterans were eligible for 
educational benefits as part of the vocational rehabilitation ; and it was 
considered necessary, I guess, that there be someone who was familiar 
with occupations, the titles and names and characteristics of different 
occupations, as well as the relationship between past educational and 
experience background and the desires of veterans to avail themselves 
of their rights under these public laws, and my job was to advise these 
veterans on their rights and help them in selecting a course of train- 
ing, either at the university or at a trade school or some type of voca- 
tional, on-the-job training, apprenticeship, et cetera. 

Mr. Tavenner. What had your previous educational training been ? 

Mr. Astley. Well, do you want a nummary of my educational back- 
ground ? Is that what you are asking ? 

Mr. Tavenner. A brief summary ; yes. 

Mr. Astley. Well, I went to grade school in Pontiac, Mich. — right 
across the street from the Pontiac Motor Co. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6297 

Then I went to high school also in Pontiac. I graduated from Pon- 
tiac High School in 1938. 

Then because it was depression and I didn't have very much money, 
I worked for a year and then I entered Wayne University in Detroit — 
had my freshman year there. 

Mr. Tavexner. What was the year in which you entered Wayne 
University? 

Mr. Astley. I was there in 1939 and 1940 — the school year of 1939- 
40 — and then entered the University of Michigan as a sophomore. I 
was graduated with a bachelor's degree, A. B. in psychology in January 
1943, and went immediately on active duty, having enlisted in the 
Reserve prior to that time. 

And then after I got out of the service — well, while I was in the 
service — you are asking about qualifications for that job — while I was 
in the service I also had considerable experience along those lines, since 
I was a classification and assignment specialist and personnel tech- 
nician in the Army, and so that most of my Army experience was con- 
sidered relevant also. 

Mr. Scherer. You said you had your A. B. in psychology ? 

Mr. Astley. Yes. 

Mr. Scherer. What did you say you are doing now ? 

Mr. Astley. I am working in a sawmill. 

Mr. Scherer. What type of work do you do in the sawmill ? 

Mr. Astley. I described it already. 

Mr. Scherer. I missed it. 

Mr. Astley. It is called a dogger. 

Mr. Scherer. What are the duties of a dogger ? 

Mr. Astley. Well, do you want me to describe it or just character- 
ize it ? 

I will describe it. I don't mind. 

Mr. Sc herer. So I understand. 

Mr. Astley. You are familiar with the fact that the logs are brought 
into the sawmill and put onto a carriage which takes them through the 
saw. Well, the dogger is the person who puts a dog into the log to 
hold it on the carriage as it goes through the saw. 

Mr. Scherer. How long have you been doing that ? 

Mr. Astley. I think about a year. 

Mr. Scherer. Is there any particular reason why you are engaged 
in that specific type of activity in view of your educational back- 
ground ? 

Mr. Astley. To earn a living. 

Mr. Scherer. Is there any particular reason why you are earning 
your living in that way ? 

Mr. Astley. Well, t don't understand your question. 

Isn't it all right for me 

(At this point Mr. MacDonald conferred with Mr. Astley.) 

Mr. Astley. I am advised by counsel to say or to suggest that this 
question might not be pertinent to this inquiry. However, I am quite 
willing to answer it. I just don't understand what is pertinent about it. 

Mr. Scherer. We have had some testimony on colonization. I 
don't know whether that applies to you or not, but that is the reason 
for my question ; therefore, I think it is pertinent, I think it arises in 
the mind of everyone in the audience as to why, with your training 
and educational background, you have engaged in the type of work 
that you describe now. 

Is there any special reason for it ? 



6298 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Astley. Well, to earn a living. 

Mr. Scherer. I understand that. 

Mr. Astley. You see, the job I had before I went to work in the 
sawmill, I was fired from it — the job at the University of Washington. 
I was dismissed — fired, and I was given no reason for it other than 
incompetence ; I was told that I was fired for incompetence. Well, I 
had no recourse other than to just go off and find another job. You 
have no protection when you are working on a nonunion job. I had 
do recourse at all, except to be just fired. There is no job security if 
you have no union, so I went to work on a job where I could belong 
to a union and have some protection. 

Mr. Scherer. That answers my question. I think I understand 
now. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. Witness, the chairman and Mr. Scherer, myself and 
Mr. Doyle were recently on some hearings in Michigan, and it was 
there developed at some length that a number of people with college 
degrees had been sent out primarily from the city of New York or 
its environs by the Communist Party for the deliberate purpose of 
injecting new life into the party in Michigan, particularly in Flint, 
and the questions that were being asked you were the result of the in- 
formation that we picked up there, which demonstrated that it was 
part of the Communist Party technique to send out what they call colo- 
nizers, people with exceptional educational qualification. 

I am giving you that explanation so that you will understand. You 
started out by saying that you didn't see that it was pertinent. Well, 
it is extremely so, and you have answered in a way up to now 

Mr. Astley. Perhaps if I gave you my whole occupational back- 
ground, you would understand it better. 

Mr. Velde. I think we do understand that and we appreciate the 
witness answering in the way that he did. 

At this time we shall take a recess for 15 minutes. 

(Whereupon, at 3 : 30 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
at 3: 45 p. m.) 

(Whereupon, at 3 : 45 p. m. the hearing was reconvened.) 

Mr. Velde. The committee will be in order, please. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. While you were in attendance at the University of 
Michigan, did you become aware of the existence at the university 
of a club or branch of the Communist Party known as the Ralph 
Neaf us Branch ? 

Mr. Astley. I don't recall ever having heard of anything like that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Testimony has been received that there was also 
an organization known as the Downtown Club of the Communist 
Party in Lansing. Were you aware of its existence ? 

Mr. Astley. Never heard of anything like that. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were you a member of any group or club in the 
Communist Party while in attendance at the University of Michigan ? 

Mr. Astley. Well, in view of the uncertainty and the — I should 
say the uncertainty of the application of the fifth amendment — the 
fact that a person who is testifying is uncertain as to know at what 
point he may be waiving his rights against self-incrimination, I think 
that I will have to decline to answer that question, citing the fifth 
amendment, relying on the fifth amendment provision against self- 
incrimination. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6299 

Mr. Tavenner. "Were you a member of the Communist Party at any 
time while you were in attendance at Wayne University in Detroit ? 

Mr. Astlet. I will have to decline to answer that question on the 
same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. You have been identified by Mrs. Barbara Hartle 
that while you were at the University of Washington in Seattle you 
were a member of the branch of the Communist Party at that institu- 
tion. Was she correct in that statement or was she in error ? 

Mr. Astley. I will have to decline to answer that question on the 
same grounds as I have previously stated due to the fact that a person 
in my position, a witness, is quite uncertain as to how he might waive 
his rights under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Were j'ou a memb?r of the Communist Party at any 
time while 3 T ou were vocational counsellor at the University of Wash- 
ington ? 

Mr. Astley. I will have to decline to answer the question under the 
same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Did you engage in the giving of a course at the 
Pacific Northwest Labor School in the fall term of 1946 ? 

Mr. Astley. I will have to decline to answer that question on the 
same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Astley. I decline on the same grounds. 

You understand what the grounds are. Is that sufficient ? 

Mr. Tavenner. Yes, quite sufficient. 

Have you at any time been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Astley. I decline on the same grounds. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Jackson ? 

Mr. Jackson. No questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Clardy? 

Mr. Clardy. While you were at the University of Michigan, did you 
know anybody hj the name of Myron Sharpe, commonly known as 
Mike Sharpe ? 

Mr. Astley. I don't recall ever having known a person by that name. 

Mr. Clardy. Did you know anybody by the name of Edward 
Shaffer while you were there ? 

Mr. Astley. No, I don't recall knowing anyone by that name. 

Mr. Clardy. Did you know that there was at one time a branch of 
the Labor Youth League at the University of Michigan ? 

Mr. Astley. I don't recall ever having known about the existence 
■of such a league. 

Mr. Clardy. Were you ever a member of the Labor Youth League ? 

Mr. Astley. Well, there I have already told you that I don't recall 
the existence of such an organization. 

Mr. Clardy. I didn't limit that to Ann Arbor ; I just say at any time 
were you a member of the Labor Youth League ? 

Mr. Astley. Then I will have to decline to answer that question on 
the same grounds of uncertainty as to point of waiver under the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Clardy. When you raise that then, you mean you are not quite 
certain whether you will incriminate yourself or not, or are you just 
going to raise it for good measure ? 

Mr. Astley. No, I don't mean that. I mean that in my mind, I am 
just refusing to answer the question because I believe that it might 
tend to incriminate me. 



6300 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Clardy. That is all. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Scherer? 

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. 

Mr. Velde. Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. I have no questions. 

Mr. Velde. Unless there is any further reason why this witness 
should be continued under subpena, the witness is dismissed, and he 
is dismissed. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Velde. At this time the Chair appoints Mr. Jackson as chair- 
man. 

Mr. Astley. May I ask a question of the Chair about the subpena? 

Mr. Velde. As far as your subpena is concerned, you may consult 
with the clerk here. 

(At this point Mr. Velde left the hearing room.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Tavenner. Margaret Jean Irving. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand, please ? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give be- 
fore this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Irving. I do. 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name, please ? 

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET JEAN IRVING, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, JOHN CAUGHLAN 

Miss Irving. Margaret Jean Irving. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you accompanied by counsel ? 

Miss Irving. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record? 

Mr. Caughlan. John Caughlan. I identified myself yesterday on 
the record further. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you a resident of Seattle ? 

Miss Irving. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you lived in Seattle ? 

Miss Irving. Since the early part of 1946. 

Mr. Tavenner. Miss Irving, you have been identified by a witness 
here today, Mrs. Barbara Hartle, as Margaret Baeklund. Are you 
also known by the name of Margaret Baeklund ? 

Miss Irving. Just a moment, please. 

(At this point Miss Irving conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Miss Irving. I was once known by the name of Baeklund. It is no 
longer my name. 

Mr. Tavenner. Margaret Baeklund was identified by Mrs. Barbara 
Hartle as having been known to her as a member of the Communist 
Party. Was she correct in identifying you as a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Miss Irving. Mr. Tavenner, I would like to answer that question 
this way : 

I believe that this question, in itself, is a violation of the first amend- 
ment of the Constitution, which says that Congress shall not abridge 
the right of the people to free speech and press and assembly, and the 
courts have held that to apply to free association ; and therefore Con- 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6301 

gress, being unable to legislate and make any laws abridging these 
freedoms, cannot possibly have a legal right to investigate, because its 
only power to investigate is to give the grounds for legislation, and I 
am now relying on the first amendment. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you assigning now reasons why you will refuse 
to answer the question ? 

Miss Irving. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. The first amendment, if that is one of the 
reasons that you are assigning, will be accepted. 

Do you have any further reasons to refuse to answer the question ? 

Miss Irving. Yes, I have. I am also going to cite the 9th amend- 
ment and the 10th amendment, and the 4th amendment and the 5th 
amendment — the clause which says I shall not be compelled to bear 
witness against myself. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the witness has refused to answer on the 
1st, 4th, 9th, 10th, and 5th. 

Proceed. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Irving. I think I will answer that question on the same 
grounds, and for the additional reason that I believe that some of the 
witnesses here have not been making it very plain why the answer to 
this question would tend to incriminate one. 

Mr. Tavenner. You just speak for yourself and let the other wit- 
nesses speak for themselves. 

Miss Irving. I will speak for myself. 

I believe that anyone in this country, including myself, who should 
admit to any past or present association with any organization or 
person who can be and has been named in any of the trials and prosecu- 
tions under the Smith Act is running a severe risk of prosecution him- 
self, and for that reason I have to cite the fifth amendment in protec- 
tion of everyone's right of free association. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment? 

Miss Irving. And on the other grounds that I stated previously. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
Party ? 

Miss Irving. I will give you the same answer for the same reasons. 

Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy? 

Mr. Clardy. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle ? 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier? 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Is there any reason why the witness should not be 
excused ? 

Mr. Tavenner. No, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well. The witness is excused. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Kunzig. Marion Camozzi Kinney. 

Mrs. Kinney. Mr. Congressman I would like to ask that these still 
pictures be not taken. 



6302 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair does not feel constrained to lay any re- 
strictions on the press as to their activities. If it is the desire of the 
witness that she not be televised during the course of her testimony, 
very well. 

Mrs. Kinney. I don't mind being televised but I dislike very much 
having these still pictures taken, and I think I have a right not to have 
such photographs taken for anyone to have around them. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair has made the ruling. He will lay no re- 
strictions upon the freedom of the press to operate within this hearing 
room. 

Will you please stand and be sworn ? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to 
give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

The committee would appreciate it if the still photographers would 
complete their work before the witness commences to testify. 

Mr. Kunzig. Would you state your name, please ? 

TESTIMONY OF MARION KINNEY 

Mrs. Kinney. My name is Marion Kinney, K-i-n-n-e-y. 

Mr. Kunzig. Mrs. Kinney, I note that you are not accompanied by 
counsel. I know that you know that under rule 7 of our committee, 
published in our rules at every hearing, public or executive, every wit- 
ness shall be accorded the privilege of having counsel of his own choos- 
ing. 

Do I take it that you desire to testify without counsel ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I did not receive that book of rules. However, it has 
been my information — and I heard it here yesterday — that a person 
may have an attorney sitting beside them. 

An attorney doesn't seem to be of much help. 

Mr. Kunzig. You desire to testify then without an attorney? You 
are perfectly willing to testify without an attorney ? 

Mrs. Kinney. Do you wish to pay for an attorney for me ? 

Mr. Jackson. The question is not in order. The committee is not 
prepared to pay the cost of your attorney. However, if you desire 
an attorney, in answer to the question that has been asked by counsel, 
I wish you would signify by saying yes or no to the question. 

Mrs. Kinney. It may not necessarily be my desire not to have coun- 
sel, Congressman. It may be that I have no money to pay for counsel. 

Mr. Jackson. If that is the situation, I think the committee should 
take a brief recess to discuss the matter and determine the will of the 
committee as to whether or not you should proceed without counsel. 

Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that we ask the witness 
whether she will proceed and testify without counsel. If she will, it 
is perfectly all right. 

Mrs. Kinney. I will proceed and testify without counsel. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, proceed. 

Mr. Kunzig. Now, Mrs. Kinney, what is your present address? 

Mrs. Kinney. My address is 21*0 29th North. 

Am I speaking loud enough for you ? 

Mr. Kunzig. Thank you. 

Would you kindly give us a brief resume of your educational 
background ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6303 

Mr. Kinney. In view of the fact that Congressman Velde, I be- 
li eV e—I know— stated some time ago that the basis for communism 
is the education of the people, I feel that this question is not a question 
which I ought to answer. 

I am assured that everything that I say before these Congressmen 
may be held against me. 

Mr. Kunzig. Now, just a minute, Mrs. Kinney. The question is 
very simple. I will break it down a little bit more. 

Did you go to elementary school ? I doubt very much if that will 
incriminate you, Mrs. Kinney. 

Mrs. Kinney. That is part of education of the people, isn't it? 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the witness is standing upon the grounds 
that the chairman of the committee made a statement. 

Now upon that ground, are you refusing to answer the question that 
has been asked ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I don't think that is a legal ground, is it ? 

Mr. Jackson. No ; it is not a legal ground. 

Mrs. Kinney. Well, in that case, perhaps I had better state my 
legal ground then. 

Mr. Jackson. I think it would be a good idea. 

Proceed, please. 

Mrs. Kinney. I will answer the question that according to my legal 
grounds, according to my rights under the Constitution of my country 
that I may not have to answer any question in any way that will be 
used against me at some future time, and that I may not be compelled 
to testify against myself in any manner in any place 

Mr. Clardy. Are you invoking the first amendment? 

Mrs. Kinney. That is the fifth amendment, Mr. Congressman. 

And I would like to say something about the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Jackson. Nothing further is needed. You have declined to 
answer the question as to your educational background, taking the fifth 
amendment, giving the fifth amendment as your reason. 

Mi's. Kinney. I have a further reason, which is that this is an inqui- 
sitional body. 

Mr. Jackson. That is solely a matter of your own opinion and has 
no legality so far as your refusal to answer is concerned. 

Mrs. Kinney. It is not a matter of my opinion. 

Mr. Jackson. Under the direction of the Chair, the witness is di- 
rected to answer as to her educational background. 

Mrs. Kinney. I am trying to answer your questions, Mr. Congress- 
man. 

Mr. Kunzig. I would like to have the reporter read back the exact 
question which the chairman has directed to be answered. 

(Question was read.) 

Mr. Kunzig. Now the question to this witness is — Did you go to 
elementary school ? And I specifically request that she be ordered to 
answer that question. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is directed to answer that question. 

Mrs. Kinney. Mr. Congressman, in view of the statement by Con- 
gressman Velde on education of the people being a basis for com- 
munism, and in view of the many concepts that I learned in my school- 
ing in my country regarding my Constitution and regarding my rights 
as a free born American, I believe that I should not answer this ques- 
tion under the fifth amendment, and I would like to say this about 
the fifth amendment. 



6304 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Kunzig. Do you refuse to answer? 

Mrs. Kinney. You have stated here that the invoking of the fifth 
amendment is a commie line, and I wish to state in furtherance to my 
question that the fifth amendment was stated back in the 12th century. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair will state to the witness that the com- 
mittee is fully and thoroughly familiar with the origins of the fifth 
amendment. 

The question is whether or not you take refuge under the fifth 
amendment in answer to the question now pending. 

Mrs. Kinney. I don't believe you are aware of the fifth amendment, 
Mr. Congressman, because you have said that it is a Commie line. The 
fifth amendment was originally 

Mr. Jackson. Will the witness kindly refrain from haranguing the 
committee? We have heard that speech, that identical speech, word 
for word, in practically every large city in the country ; it isn't nec- 
essary to repeat it. You have been asked a question which can be 
answer yes or no or you can refuse to answer it on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. No one is questioning your right to take the fifth 
amendment. However, we do wish you would get to it and without 
the long harangues and speeches which accompany your answers. 

Mrs. Kinney. I am trying to be polite to you. 

Mr. Jackson. We are trying to be courteous to you. 

Mrs. Kinney. Then I wish you Mould let me finish my answer. 

Mr. Jackson. We will let you finish to the extent that there is a 
constitutional reason cited. 

Mrs. Kinney. Congressman Doyle has maligned the fifth amend- 
ment in the public press. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, regular order. 

Mr. Jackson. Regular order. 

Mr. Clardy. May I make an observation to the witness? Because 
she is without an attorney, and I think we should call her attention to 
one thing. It is very brief. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy. 

Mr. Clardy. Witness, we are doing our best to enable you to under- 
stand that if you want to protect yourself, you should in simple 
language, if you desire to do this, refuse to answer on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. If you fail to do so and persist in this course, 
you may be running the danger of having a contempt citation. 

Now, I say that because you do not have an attorney. I ask you — 
I implore you to give an answer, direct and concise, right now. 

Mrs. Kinney. Congressman Clardy, I am very well aware and have 
been very well aware during the whole of the proceedings of this 
inquisition that I will have a very difficult time to protect my rights 
before you Congressmen — you, who sit here on judgment of me and 
who have slandered me. And I have been slandered in the public press, 
and you have smeared me — you Congressmen, Members of the United 
States 

Mr. Kunzig. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully request that she be di- 
rected to answer the question. She has not yet answered the question 
under your direction as to the very first question, which was — "Did you 
attend elementary school ?" 

Mr. Jackson. There seems to be very little point in trying to cut 
this harangue short. However, I would again ask if the witness would 
be good enough to answer the question that is pending ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I am trying to answer the question. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6305 

Mr. Kunzig. Are 3*011 refusing to answer on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment — yes or no? 

Mrs. Kinney. I am trying. 

Mr. Kunzig. Yes or no ? Are you refusing to answer on the grounds 
of the fifth amendment ? 

Mrs. Kinney. You are not permitting me to continue and, further- 
more, you call me — you say I am haranguing. I am not haranguing. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Just a moment. Counsel has directed a question to 
the witness. 

Mr. Kunzig. The question is, Are you refusing to answer the ques- 
tion of Mr. Jackson on the grounds of the fifth amendment ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I am refusing, declining to answer the question be- 
cause of Congressman Velde's statement and because — under the fifth 
amendment of my Constitution, which was put into practice to stop 
torture by Government back many generations ago ; and I consider this 
punishment which is another violation of my Constitution. 

Mr. Jackson. She has answered to my satisfaction. 

Proceed. . ,11 

Mr. Kunzig. Now I want to ask these questions very clearly so that 
the entire situation is perfectly clear. 

The next question is : Where did you attend elementary school \ And 
I respectfully request that the reporter mark that question; I will 
follow that question through. Where did you attend elementary 

school? „ 

Mrs. Kinney. You mean you will keep on asking me that question ? 

Mr. Kunzig. No. The other was, Did you attend. This is where 
did you attend— the place. Very simple. Where did you attend ele- 
mentary school, if you so attended ? 

Mrs. Kinney. Without conceding your right whatsoever to inquire 
into my personal beliefs, into my life and into any of my personal 
affairs, I will answer that I attended grade school in Seattle. 

Mr. Jackson. Let us have order in the courtroom, please. 

Mr. Kunzig. Did you attend high school ? That is the next specific 
question. 

Mrs. Kinney. I attended high school in the city of Seattle. 

Mr. Kunzig. When did you graduate from high school ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I graduated from high school in 1929. 

Mr. Kunzig. Did you have any further education, any college 
education ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I had college education at the University of Wash- 
ington. 

Mr. Kunzig. Did you graduate from the University of Washing- 
ton ? 

Mrs. Kinney. No, Congressman, I did not graduate from the Uni- 
versity of Washington. 

Mr. Kunzig. When did you leave the University of Washington? 

Mrs. Kinney. I don't remember the precise time that I left the 
University of Washington, but I left it during the dark days of the 
depression because I had no money to continue and because I had to 
go to work to support myself. 

Mr. Kunzig. Since those dark days or at any time, have you ever 
been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Kinney. This question is an invasion of my rights under the 
first amendment of the Constitution, which says that Congress shall 



6306 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

make no law concerning freedom of speech, freedom of the press, free- 
dom of assembly, and the freedom of people to petition for grievances. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mrs. Kinney. And I haven't finished yet. 

Mr. Jackson. Let the witness proceed. Let it not be said that the 
committee further curtailed freedom of speech. 

Mr. Clardy. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that she merely state the 
number of the amendment. We understand what they are. 

Mrs. Kinney. I don't think you do, because otherwise you wouldn't 
have this inquisitional committee, because this committee is not here 
by law of the first amendment to the Constitution. 

Mr. Jackson. Will the witness proceed to enumerate her reasons for 
refusing to answer ? 

Mrs. Kinney. And my further reasons to decline to answer as to my 
personal beliefs, as to my political affiliations— and I feel that for 
these reasons it is encumbent upon me to take this position in the very 
defense of the basic law of my land and of my country, because when 
Congressmen institute such inquisitional committees as this, then ordi- 
nary citizens like myself have to defend the law of my land. 

Mr. Clardy. Are you raising the fifth amendment ? 

Mrs. Kinney. We will get to it. 

Mr. Clardy. Then get to it right now, please. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you please, if you don't mind, get to the constitu- 
tional reasons why you are refusing to answer the question ? The com- 
mittee would appreciate it if you would. 

Mrs. Kinney. I have other reasons. 

Mr. Jackson. No doubt, but will you please make it as brief as 
possible ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I have reasons stated in the bill of rights of my con- 
stitution, in the ninth and tenth amendments, which also reserve to the 
people all rights not given to Congress ; and the secretary of my State, 
the State of Washington, has put out a very fine pledge, which i would 
like to state 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair has tried to be reasonable as far as allow- 
ing you ample time to state your constitutional reasons. 

Do you have any additional questions to ask the witness ? 

Mr. Kunzig. Yes. 

Mrs. Kinney. I haven't finished my answer yet, Mr. Congressman. 

Mr. Jackson. Your answer is apt to be eternal, if not immortal. 

For that reason do you have further questions, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. Kunzig. Yes. 

Mrs. Kinney. I haven't finished my answer to the last question. 

Mr. Jackson. I understand. Are there any other constitutional 
reasons which you wish to give briefly before you are excused ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I haven't cited yet 

Mr. Jackson. I wish you would start. 

Mrs. Kinney. My rights under the fifth amendment, which also 
deal with due process. And I am being tried without a trial, and you 
people here are acting as judge and jury and everything else. 

Mr. Ktjnzig. Nobody is being tried at all here. 

Mrs. Kinney. You have smeared me. 

Mr. Kunzig. No one is being judge and jury, unless it is the people 
watching you here today and your behavior. 

Mrs. Kinney. This is not a public hearing 

Mr. Jackson. Will the committee please be in order ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6307 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Just a moment. Counsel, it appears, has several more 
questions to ask. 

Do you have any further questions ? 

Mr. Kunzig. Yes. 

Appearing in the Post-Intelligencer of October 25, 1947, Mrs. Kin- 
ney, is a most interesting letter signed— or it is printed here Marion 
Kinney, Frontier Book Store, The letter reads as follows : 

To the Post-Intelligencer : In an article on October 18 you have for the ump- 
teenth time, in making reference to my name, prefaced it with a lie. When you 
say "an alleged Communist," it is a slanderous and lying implication, which 
I am sure does not escape your perception. 

Never, under pressure, inquisition, torture, third degree, or anything else, have 
I "admitted" that I am a Communist. To those interested, I state proudly that 
I am a member of the Communist Party of America. 

I am proud of my party, struggling against odds, as the early Christians of 
antiquity, as our forefathers of 1776, as the abolitionists, and as all other brave 
people for the material, spiritual, and political rights of man. 

Because it is unlikely that this letter will ever see print in your "free" paper, 
I am sending copies to other publications. 

Signed Marion Kinney, Frontier Book Store. 

Did you admit in this letter, Mrs. Kinney, that you were a member 
of the Communist Party? Did you state proudly that you were a 
member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Kinney. Congressman, I shall decline to state whether or not 
that document was written by me, and I do so. 

Would you please have these people [referring to photographers] 
wait until I finish? It is a little bit disturbing. Besides they always 
take such ugly pictures, too: ard I have seen what they do with pic- 
tures in McCarthyite proceedings ; I have heard it over the television 
what they did with the pictures. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I suggest we are getting nowhere fast. 
Let us dismiss the witness from the stand. 

Mrs. Kinney. I didn't finish answering the last question. 

Mr. Jackson. The committee will be in order. 

Does the witness have any constitutional grounds upon which to 
base her refusal to answer the questions? 

Mrs. Kinney. I certainly do have constitutional grounds upon 
which I base my declination to answer any questions regarding 

Mr. Jackson. Would you please state them ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I am stating them. 

Mr. Kunzig. Are they the same grounds as before ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I am stating what my grounds are. 

Mrs. Kunzig. Are they the same grounds as before ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I am trying very hard by myself not to become 
entrapped by this committee. 

Mr. Kunzig. You can't be entrapped by the committee. 

Are they the same grounds? 

Mrs. Kinney. I just want to make sure. 

Mrs. Kunzig. Are they the same grounds ? 

Mrs. Kinney. I am refusing to answer the question based on my 
rights under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Kunzig. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Are there any further questions of the witness ? 

Mr. Frazier. Did you write the letter that has been read to you by 
the counsel ? 



6308 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mrs. Kinney. Congressman Doyle, you stated in the public press 
that the use of the fifth, amendment was a Commie line, did you not ? 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Kunzig. Dr. Richard L. Nelson. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Dr. Nelson. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

The committee will be in order. 

Mr. Kunzig. Will you give your full name, please ? 

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD LEON NELSON, ACCOMPANIED BY 
COUNSEL, C. T. HATTEN 

Dr. Nelson. Mr. Chairman, might I have a glass of water, and 
may I have the windows open ? It is very stuffy and hot in here and 
I am very dry. 

Mr. Kunzig. Certainly. 

Let the record show that the windows have been opened. 

Mr. Clardy. Do you have any further requests ? 

Dr. Nelson. No, that is sufficient. 

Mr. Kunzig. Would you state your full name, please, sir? 

Dr. Nelson. Answering that question under protest, because this 
committee is unconstitutional, illegal, immoral, and- subversive, I will 
state that my name is Richard Leon Nelson. 

Mr. Kunzig. Will counsel, whom I recognize as having been here 
before, state his name for the record ? 

Mr. Hatten. C. T. Hatten. I am an attorney in the city of Seattle. 

Mr. Kunzig. Now would you give us your address, please, Dr. 
Nelson ? 

Dr. Nelson. I live in Kirkland. 

Mr. Kunzig. What is your profession, sir ? 

Dr. Nelson. I am a dentist. 

Mr. Kunzig. Would you give the committee a brief resume of your 
educational background ? 

(At this point Dr. Nelson conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Dr. Nelson. Do you mean formal education ? 

Mr. Kunzig. Formal education ; yes. 

Dr. Nelson. Just formal, that is all ? 

Mr. Kunzig. Yes. 

Dr. Nelson. I attended grade school, high school, and dental school. 

Mr. Kunzig. What year did you graduate from dental school, and 
where did you graduate from ? 

Dr. Nelson. I graduated from North Pacific College of Oregon in 
the year 1928. 

Mr. Kunzig. Have you been practicing ever since then ? 

Dr. Nelson. Yes, except for — it might not be called practice, be- 
cause I spent Sy 2 years in the armed service of the United States. 

Mr. Jackson. As a dentist? 

Dr. Nelson. As a dentist. 

Mr. Kunzig. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party, 
Doctor ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6309 

Dr. Nelson. Excuse me while I consult with counsel. 
(At this point Dr. Nelson conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 
Dr. Nelson. In view of the fact that members of my family helped 
write parts of that constitution, whom I revere beyond words, and in 
view of the fact that this committee is totally without morals, I refuse 
to answer this question, citing the first amendment of the Constitution, 
which states that the people shall have the right to assemble, peaceably 
assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, and 
to the fifth amendment, which is the shield of the innocent, which you 

have heard before — and I have, too 

(At this point Mr. Hatten conferred with Dr. Nelson.) 

Dr. Nelson. Against testifying against myself. 

Mr. Kttnzig. Now, Doctor, what service were you in during the 
war, Army, Nav}^ ? What was it ? 

Dr. Nelson. I was in the Army. I had been a commissioned officer 
of the United States since March 8, 1930, commissioned there when 
Hitler's shadow fell over Europe. 

Mr. Kunzig. Let us talk about the Communist shadow for a moment. 

Were you ever a member of the Communist Party during the time 
that you were a commissioned officer of the United States Army ? 

Dr. Nelson. I again invoke the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kunzig. On the ground that you don't wish to incriminate your- 
self? _ . 

Are you still a Reserve officer in the United States Army, at this 
moment ? 

(At this point Dr. Nelson conferred with Mr. Hatten.) 

Dr. Nelson. I have never received a discharge. I am not in the 
active Reserve ; I have no connections with the Army whatsoever, but 
I have never received a discharge. All I have is a certificate of satis- 
factory service, a letter from President Truman, thanking me for my 
services and an order placing me on inactive status. 

Mr. Kunzig. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Dr. Nelson. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre- 
viously stated, namely, the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kunzig. I have no further questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy ? 

Mr. Clardy. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer? 

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, the witness is excused from further at- 
tendance under the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Kunzig. Jean Danielson Schuddakopf . 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand ? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give 
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. I do. 

I don't want any television. I request not to have television. 



6310 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Jackson. Both television cameras will refrain from photo- 
graphing the witness daring the course of her testimony. 

Proceed, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Kunzig. Is it Miss or Mrs. ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. It is Mrs. 

Mr. Kunzig. Mrs. Schuddakopf, would you please state your full 
name for the record ? 

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET JEAN SCHUDDAKOPF, ACCOMPANIED 
BY COUNSEL, KENNETH A. MacDONALD 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. My name is Margaret Jean Schuddakopf. 

Mr. Kunzig. Mrs. Schuddakopf, I note that you are accompanied 
by counsel who has been here previously, but we would appreciate it 
if he would please state his name for the record again. 

Mr. MacDonald. Kenneth A. MacDonald, attorney in Seattle. 

Mr. Kunzig. Thank you. 

Mrs. Schuddakopf, did you ever at any time use the name of Jean 
Danielson ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. I was once known by that name. 

Mr. Kunzig. You were once Jean Danielson ? 

Now what is your present address ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. Big Harbor, Wash. 

Mr. Kunzig. And your present employment ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. I am a social worker. 

Mr. Kunzig. By whom are you employed ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. I was employed by the Tacoma Public School 
District No. 10. 

Mr. Kunzig. You used the past tense. Are you still employed ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. I have a contract for the coming year but the 
school session is out for this year, so I am not working right now. 

Mr. Kunzig. You are not working, the reason being that the school 
session is out ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. That is correct. It was out last week. 

Mr. Kunzig. What are your duties? In what capacity do you 
work ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. I would like to answer that, but it would be 
with some trepidation that I would do so in view of what has just 
been happening, because the duties that I have are anything but simple 
and I fear that if I started answering them I might be accused of 
filibustering. 

Mr. Kunzig. Tell us briefly what you do. 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. I cannot tell it briefly, sir. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, let us not tell it at all then. 

Mr. Kunzig. Mrs. Schuddakopf, Mrs. Barbara Hartle here in these 
hearings has identified a Jean Danielson, the name you said you once 
went by, as a member of the Communist Party, whom she knew per- 
sonally to have been a member of the Communist Party; so I ask you 
the question — have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. That, sir, I decline to answer, invoking my 
rights under the fifth amendment not to testify against 

Mr. Kunzig. Are you now a member 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. Let me finish. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES EST THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6311 

Mr. Kunzig. All right, you invoke the rights of the fifth amend- 
ment. 

Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. That, sir, I again decline to answer. 

Mr. Kunzig. Did you ever teach at the Seattle Labor School or the 
Pacific Northwest Labor School ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. That again I decline to answer for the same 
reason. 

Mr. Kunzig. Do you work with children, with young people, in 
your present work ? 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. Well, sir, that would come back to the question, 
which I said before I would be glad to answer if I would not be accused 
of filibustering. 

Mr. Kunzig. Just say whether you have am- connection with chil- 
dren and young people. 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. It isn't so simple as that. 

Mr. Kunzig. You can answer "Yes" or "No," whether you do or 
whether you don't. 

(At this point Mrs. Schuddakopf conferred with Mr. MacDonald.) 

Mrs. Schuddakopf. I work in the elementary school system. My 
work is with different groups of people. 

Mr. Kunzig. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy ? 

Mr. Clardy. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance under 
the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Kunzig. Robert Camozzi. 

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT T. CAMOZZI, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, 

JOHN CAUGHLAN 

Mr. Jackson. Raise your right hand, sir, and be sworn, 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this com- 
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God ? 

Mr. Camozzi. I do. 

Mr. Jackson. Be seated, please. 

Mr. Caughlan. May I request on behalf of my client that we also 
avoid this sort of stuff here. (Referring to photographers.) 

Mr. Jackson. Is the request being made by the witness not to be 
televised ? 

Mr. Caughlan. No ; it is not. 

Mr. Jackson. What is the request ? If counsel will advise his client, 
the client may make the request of the Chair. 

Mr. Caughlan. Would you please tell the Chair that we would like 
to have these photographers out of the way, because they are extremely 



6 



6312 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

disturbing when you are being examined or anybody is being examined, 

I have noticed. They flash bulbs 

Mr. Camozzi. I imagine they have taken their pictures. As long as 

they have ceased now 

Mr. Jackson. You have no request to make ? 
Mr. Camozzi. No ; I have none at this time. 
Mr. Jackson. Proceed. 

Mr. Kttnzig. Would you state your full name ? 
Mr. Camozzi. I have a little chest cold. I was wondering if I could 
get some fresh water ? 
Mr. Kunzig. Certainly. 
Would you state your full name, please? 
Mr. Camozzi. Robert T. Camozzi. 

Mr. Kunzig. I note, Mr. Camozzi, that you are accompanied by 
counsel who has been here before today. 
Would you please state your name for the record ? 
Mr. C aughlan. My name is John Caughlan. I am a Seattle lawyer. 
Mr. Kunzig. What is your address, Mr. Camozzi? 
Mr. Camozzi. Seattle, Wash. 
Mr. Kunzig. Do you have a street address ? 

Mr. Camozzi. Well, I would rather not give it, because the name 
being mentioned yesterday started a chain of events that injured in- 
nocent people which are very dear to me. 

Mr. Clardy. Would you rather that other people, who might have 
a similar name, be injured instead ? Because unless we know where you 
live, others— and there are other people by that name— may be appre- 
hensive about it. 

Mr. Camozzi. There aren't very many with that same name. 
I think the committee has my address and I would rather not give it 
over television. 
Mr. Jackson. Very well. 

Mr. Kunzig. What is your present employment? 
Mr. Camozzi. As of 9 o'clock yesterday, in the circulation depart- 
ment of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. I think it must be apparent 
to the committee that with the smear to my name, after the many 
years of faithful work I put in for the paper, there may be some doubts 
as to whether I will work there after this week. 

Mr. Jackson. Let the Chair say, if there has been any smear, this 
is the best forum in the world to clear it up. You will be asked some 
questions that will very easily clear it up. 
Mrs. Kunzig. Where were you born? 
Mr. Camozzi. Prince Rupert, British Columbia. 
Mr. Kunzig. When? 
Mr. Camozzi. March 27, 1910. 

Mr. Kunzig. When did you come to this country? 
Mr. Camozzi. When I was 2 years old. 
Mr. Kunzig. Did you go to school in this country ? 
Mr. Camozzi. I did. 
Mr. Kunzig. Where? 

Mr. Camozzi. I went to grade school in Blaine, Wash. I gradu- 
ated from high school in Bellingham, Wash. I attended 1 quarter at 
the Bellingham Normal School, now known as the Western Washing- 
ton College of Education, and 15 quarters at the University of 
Washington. 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6313 

Mr. Kunzig. In what year did you complete your formal training? 
Mr. Camozzi. In 1936. > . 

Mr. Kunzig. Are you a naturalized citizen today i 
Mr. Camozzi. Yes, sir. . 

Mr Kunzig. Now, Mrs. Barbara Hartle has identified you as having 
been a member of the Communist Party, to her own personal knowi- 

3 Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ? 

(At this point Mr. Camozzi conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr Camozzi. Well, on that question I am forced to invoke my privi- 
lege under the first and fifth amendment and decline to answer. 

Sir Kunzig. You have also been identified as having been a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party by a Philip Cohen in executive session 
before this committee; by Ward Warren Nat Hoenig, Erla Page 
Hoenig, and by H. C. Armstrong. All of these people have identified 
you as having been, within their personal knowledge, a member oi 
the Communist Party. _ 

I will ask you once again, have you ever been a member ot the Com- 
munist Party? Here is your opportunity to clear up this so called 
"smear" that you have been talking about. 

Mr Camozzi. I would like to make a statement at this time and 1 
will try not to be provocative; I will try not to invoke any Cohenisms 

into this hearing. . ., 

In answer to that question— just early this afternoon my former wile 
testified here. If I were to start giving answers to this committee, one 
of the persons I would be forced to testify against would be my former 
wife. I was married to her for 12 years, and there is no power on earth 
that could force me, under any conditions, to violate the sacred rela- 
tions in that marriage. . 

Mr Jackson. The committee is not asking you, nor is counsel asking 
you to violate any confidences of any kind. You have been asked the 
question as to whether the identification of you as a member of the 
Communist Party was true or false. 

Mr. Camozzi. I would still like to make a statement. I haven t fin- 
ished it. I am going to give you an answer to the question. 

Mr Jackson. The statement is not responsive to the question that 
has been asked you, and if you are going to decline to answer, if you 
will give your constitutional reasons for so declining, that is all that 
will be necessary. ■ '. . 

Mr. Camozzi. Well, in the past I have been privileged to work with 
thousands of youngsters, adolescents in this community, and there are 
many people that I have worked with that I think in most cases, in 
almost all cases have respected my work, and I think if I am not 
allowed to give some explanation for my answer it is going to be mis- 
understood. M m . , ,, , 

Mr. Clardy. You haven't been choked off. We merely suggest that 
you advance your constitutional reasons for refusing to answer, if that 
is what you desire to do. And if it calls for some reasonable explana- 
tion, I am sure that the Chair will permit it. 

Mr. Jackson. After the question has been answered any explanation 
will be in order. . 

Mr. Camozzi. Well, from the inferences of the hearing and Irom 
the publicity that has been in the paper, there would be inferences that 



6314 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

I have done something wrong in my past. I know that I have never 
in my full life ever committed any type of a crime. I have served 
my country proudly in peace and in war, and during one period of my 
life I made a contribution to the trade-union movement which I am 
very proud of ; and, if the occasion arises again, in which I will ever 
be given that opportunity, I will respond in like fashion. 

But, because of the nature of the hearings, I, too, am one of those 
who do not agree that just because you are constituted by Congress 
that all acts of Congress or all deliberations of Congress or decisions 
are necessarily constitutional. 

For my grounds I would like to mention the recent act of the 
Supreme Court. It took almost a hundred years to finally end segre- 
gation in the schools in the South. It took, I think, some 28 deci- 
sions — this is part of my answer. 

Mr. Clardy. Mr. Chairman, I submit that he is far afield. 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. Your answer and your statement is hardly 
responsive to the question that has been asked. 

Mr. Camozzi. Frankly, I don't think that this committee has any 
right to inquire into my political beliefs in the past or as to whomso- 
ever I might have associated with in the past, but in answer to the 
question, I must invoke my privilege under the first and fifth amend- 
ments. 

Mr. Kunzig. I think the record should show clearly, Mr. Chair- 
man, that the Supreme Court of the United States of America has said 
again and again in official decisions that this committee has every right 
under the Constitution to ask these questions. 

Mr. Camozzi. I am also certain that someday this committee will be 
declared unconstitutional. 

Mr. Kunzig. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Camozzi. For reasons given before, I decline to answer under 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kunzig. We are to understand when you say the reasons given 
before that you mean the first and fifth amendments ? 

Mr. Camozzi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Kunzig. You said you were in the service of the United States. 
What military service were you in ? 

Mr. Camozzi. Army. 

Mr. Kunzig. From when to when ? 

Mr. Camozzi. I enlisted in October 1942 and was discharged the 
last day of March 1946. 

Mr. Kunzig. Were you a member of the Communist Party when 
you were in the Army of the United States of America ? 

Mr. Camozzi. For reasons given I invoke the same privilege, the 
first and the fifth amendments. 

Mr. Kunzig. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy ? 

Mr. Clardy. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr, Doyle. I think, Mr. Chairman, I want to take 1 minute in view 
of this gentleman's occupation. 

This committee of course is here today under Public Law 601 of 
the United States Congress, and is a regular committee of the United 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6315 

States Congress, which is your Congress, Mr. Camozzi, and it has 
declared that after investigation it has found that the Communist 
Party in the United States is subversive and has been in its history. 
Therefore, this committee is here today investigating whether or not 
you have been a member of a subversive group. I just wanted to call 
that to your attention. 

Xow may I reaffirm this ? That I recognize and I am sure the com- 
mittee recognizes that the opinions of our highest courts — and we 
follow the courts instead of our own personal opinion — have held that 
no inference is to be drawn of either innocence or guilt merely because 
a person claims his constitutional privilege. Therefore the policy of 
this committee, following the law, which we always respect, is that 
merely because a person claims the constitutional privileges there is 
no reason for us, inferentially or otherwise, to have any belief or take 
any position that that person is necessarily guilty of any crime. How- 
ever, as long as a few minutes ago, my name was mentioned as having 
declared in the public press that the taking of the fifth amendment 
was a Commie line. I wish to restate now that to my knowledge, in 
the history of this committee, the taking of the fifth amendment is a 
Commie line. That doesn't necessarily mean, in my book, that every 
person that takes it is one, but the records clearly show that taking the 
fifth amendment is a direction of the Communist Party. 

I wish to state this, too, being a lawyer. No question we have asked 
you today, Mr. Camozzi, was intended to or would violate the rela- 
tionship of husband and wife, as you well know. 

Mr. Camozzi. Yes, but the inference was here. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. Mr. Camozzi, did you receive derivative citizenship 
through the naturalization of your father ? 

(At this point Mr. Camozzi conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Camozzi. I really don't know the answer to that, because my 
father — there was some question when I was being naturalized. My 
father had American papers at one time, and there was some legality, 
so I really don't know whether I am a citizen by my father's papers 
or whether by naturalization. I couldn't really answer that question. 

Mr. Frazier. I understood you to testify that you were a naturalized 
citizen. 

Mr. Camozzi. As I said, my father had originally had American 
papers. Then he moved to Canada, and there was a question as to the 
day that he took out Canadian papers — whether I was born one day 
before or one day afterward ; so to insure myself, I also became natural- 
ized. 

Mr. Frazier. Did you ever go into court and receive naturalization 
yourself ? 

(At this point Mr. Camozzi conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Camozzi. Yes. 

Mr. Frazier. Where and when ? 

Mr. Camozzi. In Seattle. 

Mr. Frazier. What year ? 

Mr. Camozzi. At the start of 1929 in Bellingham, I believe, and I 
think I had my papers in 1938 or 1939. I don't recall 

Mr. Frazier. Do you have a copy of those naturalization papers 
with you ? 

Mr. Camozzi. Yes, I have. 



6316 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Frazier. Would you mind filing them with the clerk ? Let him 
see them, please. 

(At this point Mr. Camozzi conferred with Mr. Caughlan.) 

Mr. Camozzi. I must have misunderstood your question. I don't 
have them with me. 

Mr. Frazier. My question asked if you had them with you. 

Mr. Camozzi. I misunderstood you. I don't have them with me. 

Mr. Frazier. Would you mind securing those and turning them 
over to the counsel for the committee for examination ? 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Mr. Camozzi.) 

Mr. Camozzi. Yes, I would. I can't see that it is germane to this 
inquiry. 

Mr. Frazier. We would appreciate it if you will present them to 
the committee. 

Mr. Jackson. Do you have anything further, Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. I have nothing further. 

Mr. Jackson. Counsel, do you have anything further ? 

Mr. Kunzig. I have nothing further. 

Mr. Caughlan. Just a moment. 

Mr. Camozzi. Are you ordering me to produce my citizenship 
papers ? 

Mr. Frazier. I requested you to, and with the permission of the 
chairman, I will ask him to order you to present them to the committee 
for examination. 

Mr. Jackson. I hope that it will not be necessary to issue such an 
order or such a subpena. If the witness would be good enough to 
cooperate to the extent of conferring with counsel- on the papers, it 
would be appreciated by the Chair and by the committee. 

(At this point Mr. Caughlan conferred with Mr. Camozzi.) 

Mr. Camozzi. Was I excused ? 

Mr. Jackson. Yes. The witness is excused. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Kunzig. Edward Friel. 

Mr. Jackson. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Friel. I do. 

Mr. Kunzig. Would you state your full name, please, Mr. Friel? 

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD FRIEL 

Mr. Friel. Edward Friel. 

Mr. Kunzig. I note that you are not accompanied by counsel. I 
am sure that you know that under rule 7 of this committee every 
hearing, public or executive, every witness shall be accorded the priv- 
ilege of having counsel of his own choosing. 

Do you desire to testify without counsel ? 

Mr. Friel. I have consulted counsel and I have advice of counsel. 
But counsel is not present and I have no objection to examination 
without counsel. 

Mr. Jackson. Very well, proceed. 

Mr. Kunzig. What is your present address ? 



COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 6317 

Mr. Friel. 1837 12th Avenue West, Seattle. 

Mr. Kunzig. Would you give the committee a very brief resume of 
your formal educational training, your schooling ? 

Mr. Friel. I went to grammar school in Waterville, Wash. I went 
to high school in the same place, and I went about 2y 2 years to the 
State College of Washington. 

Mr. Kunzig. When did you finish that 21/o-year period ? 

Mr. Friel. I believe in 1933, sir. 

Mr. Kunzig. How are you presently employed, sir ? 

Mr. Friel. I am a painter. 

Mr. Kunzig. Are you a member of a union and, if so, what union % 

Mr. Friel. Yes, I am a member of Painters' Local 300. 

Mr. Kunzig. Have you ever been at any time a member of the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Mr. Friel. Since I have no counsel, sir, I hope that the committee 
will give me a moment for thought on occasion. 

I should say that due to the nature of the testimony against me and 
due to the great respect which the committee and even credulity that 
the committee has shown toward the testimony of this chameleon, I 
feel that it is not only possible but almost certain that if I were to tell 
the simple truth I would be charged with a crime, and I therefore 
claim the privilege of the fifth amendment and decline to answer on 
the grounds that I will not become a witness against myself. 

Mr. Jackson. In what respect is the testimony of the witness to 
whom you refer in error ? 

Mr. Friel. The answer "is the same as to the preceding questions. 

Mr. Jackson. In other words, the information obtained from the 
previous witness is not in error ? 

Mr. Friel. I decline to answer on the grounds that to do so might 
tend to make me bear witness against myself. 

Mr. Kunzig. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Friel. The answer is the same as to the preceding questions. 

Mr. Kunzig. Were you ever in the armed services of the United 
States? 

Mr. Friel. I was not. 

Mr. Kunzig. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Clardy? 

Mr. Clardy. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Scherer ? 

Mr. Scherer. I have no questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle? 

Mr. Doyle. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Frazier ? 

Mr. Frazier. No questions. 

Mr. Jackson. The witness is excused from further attendance under 
the subpena. 

(Witness was excused.) 

Mr. Jackson. Call your next witness. 

Mr. Kunzig. John Robert Plumb. 

Mr. Plumb. My attorney just went out the door; she thought that 
the hearings would be over. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Counsel, do you have another witness ? 

Mr. Kunzig. Lenzie Shellman. 



6318 COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST AREA 

Mr. Shellman. I am in the same position. My attorney is out. As 
soon as she comes back in, I am willing to testify. 

Mr. Jackson. What is the name of your attorney ? 

Mr. Shellman. Sara H. Lesser. 

Mr. Jackson. Will the officer make an effort to determine if Sara 
Lesser is in the hallway ? 

Police Officer. I believe she left permanently, sir. 

Mr. Kunzig. Of course the witness knew that he was liable to be 
called and Miss Lesser knew that he was liable to be called. 

I respectfully suggest that we will probably have to put this over, 
but I don't think a man should not be able to testify because his attor- 
ney is conveniently not present. 

Mr. Jackson. If this were the concluding day of the hearing, cer- 
tainly the committee would be of like opinion. However, it is not the 
desire of the committee that any witness who is represented by counsel 
be required to appear without that counsel. 

Do you have any other witnesses to call ? 

Mr. Kunzig. Not at this moment, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Jackson. Mr. Doyle. 

Mr. Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the two gentlemen, before 
we adjourn, be instructed to return here at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning 
with their counsel. 

If you are not here with counsel, proceed to prepare to testify any- 
way. You are under subpena and have been and your attorney should 
be here with you. 

Mr. Jackson. The Chair issues that instruction — that the two wit- 
nesses who were last called are to be here at 9 o'clock tomorrow morn- 
ing with counsel or be prepared to proceed without counsel. 

If there is nothing further, gentlemen, the committee will then stand 
in recess until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. 

(Whereupon, at 4: 55 p. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene 
at 9 a. m. Wednesday, June 16, 1954.) 



INDEX TO PART 4 



Individuals 

Page 

Armstrong, H. C 6313 

Astley, Theodore Raymond 6295-6300 (testimony) 

Backlund, Margaret (see also Irving, Margaret Jean) 6300 

Blodgett, David 6251 

Camozzi, Robert T 6311-6316 (testimony) 

Caughlan, John 6235-6249, 6300, 6301, 6311-6316 

Cohen, Elizabeth Boggs 6245 

Cohen, Philip 6313 

Danielson, Jean (see also Sehuddakopf, Margaret Jean) 6310 

Dennett, Eugene V 6256-6274 (testimony) 

Dennett, Harriet 6268 

Ferguson, Robert L 6263 

Friel, Edward 6316-6317 (testimony) 

Furman, Blair 6262, 6263 

Hartle, Barbara 6235, 626S, 6269, 6275, 6284, 62S5, 6294, 6299, 6300, 6310, 6313 

Hatten, C. T 6249-6255, 6275-6295, 630S-6309 

Hoenig, Erla Page 6313 

Hoenig, Nat 6313 

Irving, Margaret Jean (sec also Blacklund, Margaret) __ 6300-6301 (testimony) 

Jackins, Carl Harvey 6235-6249 (testimony) 

Kinney, Marion (see also Camozzi, Marion Kinney) 6301 

6302-6308 (testimony) 

Kirkwood, Melvin W. (Mel) 6274, 6275-6291 (testimony) 

Lesser, Sara H 6318 

MacDonald, Kenneth A 6256-6274. 6295-6300, 6310-6311 

McCarthy, James 6263 

Nelson, Richard Leon '. 6308-6309 (testimonv) 

Page, Erla 6313 

Parry, Will H 6249-6255 (testimony) 

Plumb, John Robert 6317 

Reuther, Walter 6273 

Rosenberg, Ethel 6287 

Rosenberg, Julius 6287 

Sehuddakopf, Margaret Jean (see also Danielson, Jean) 6309, 

6310-6311 (testimony) 

Shaffer, Edward 6299 

Sharpe, Mike 6299 

Sharpe, Myron 6299 

Shellman, Lenzie 6317, 6318 

Truman. Harry 6309 

Tyler, Jerry William 6291-6295 (testimony) 

Warren, Ward 6313 

Wildman, Leonard Basil 6245 

Willoughby, James 6274 

Organizations 

Aero Mechanics' Union, Lodge 751 6241 

American Federation of Labor 6257-6259 

Building Service Employees' Union 6241 

Bureau of Aeronautics 6287 

Central Labor Council 6257 



K INDEX 

11 Page 

Communist International 62ol 

Comnmnist Party : „.-,_., 

California ^" 

Michigan %£? 

Downtown Club, Lansing £-»» 

Ralph Neafus Branch, Ann Arbor o^JS 

Washington State: . . 

Northwest District, District Review Commission t^b8 

Seattle - 

Congress of Industrial Organizations 6257-6259, 6273 

Daily People's World «Ss 

Federal Bureau of Investigation ^oo 

Fishermen and Allied Workers, Local 3 o-°» 

Frontier Book Store, Seattle jgH 

Hearst Press— 6257-6259 

Inland Boatmen s Union —- -——- o^o< o-oa 

International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Local 46 — — 6238, t>241 

International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, Local 19 b2&J 

Labor Youth League — — — 6299 

Labor Youth League, University of Michigan Chapter >2JJ 

Marine Cooks and Stewards, AFL «o)S 

Maritime Federation of the Pacific b257 

Maritime Federation cf the Pacific, District Council No. 1, Seattle 62o7 

North Pacific College of Oregon ro«r"«9«7 SSn 

Office of Naval Intelligence 6286, 6287, 629U 

Oregon Normal School --- — .°-° b 

Pacific Northwest Labor School (see also Seattle Labor School) 0288, 

6294, 6299,6311 

Painters' Local 300 6317 

Pontiac High School -^A 

Pontiac Motor Co. 



6296 

Sailors' Union of the Pacific 6291 

Seattle Labor School {see also Pacific Northwest Labor School) b311 

Seattle Post-Intelligencer - 6307, 6312 

Seattle Unity Council --- 6257 

Socialist Workers' Patty «qia 

Tacoma Public School District No. 10 6^10 

United States Supreme Court S^-*™* ^W 

United Steelworkers of America, Local Union 1208 6260, b2b5, (>_<><> 

University of Michigan — _ 6297-6299 

University of Oregon- b—oo 

University of Washington, Seattle 6237, 6245, 6296, 6298, 6299, 6305, 6312 

Washington State CIO Council 62o8 

Washington State College --- 6317 

Wayne University, Detroit b ^ yT > bzyy 

Western Washington College of Education (originally the Bellingham 
Normal School) 6312 

o 



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