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INVESTIGATION  OF  COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE 
SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA-Part  4 


HEARING 

BEFORE  THE 

COMMITTEE  0?^  UN-AMERICAN  ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 

EIGHTY-THIRD  CONGRESS 

FIRST  SESSION 


DECEMBER  4,  1953 


Printed  for  the  use  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities 
INCLUDING  INDEX 


UNITED  STATES 
GOVERNMENT  PRINTING  OFFICE 
41002  WASHINGTON  :   1954 


Boston  Public  Library 
Superintendent  of  Documents 

MAR  1 6  1954 


COMMITTEE  ON  UN-AMERICAN  ACTIVITIES 
United  States  House  of  Representatives 

HAROLD  H.  VELDE,  Illinois,  Chairman 

BERNARD  W.  KEARNEY,  New  York  FRANCIS  E.  WALTER,  Pennsylvania 

DONALD  L.  JACKSON,  California  MORGAN  M.  MOULDER,  Missouri 

KIT  CLARDY,  Michigan  CLYDE  DOYLE,  California 

GORDON  H.  SCHERER,  Oliio  JAMES  B.  FRAZIER,  Jr.,  Tennessee 

Robert  L.  Kdnzig,  Counsel 

Frank  S.  Tavenner,  Jr.,  Counsel 

Louis  J.  Russell,  Chief  Investigator 

Thomas  W.  Beale,  Sr.,  Chief  Clerk 

Raphael  I.  Nixon,  Director  of  Research 

II 


CONTENTS 


December  4,  1953,  testimony  of —  Pag« 

Kathleen  Griffin  Hee 3350 

Mildred  Bowen 3351 

Joseph  Melia 3353 

Paul  Schlipf 3355 

Ole  Fagerhaugh 3367 

Carroll  Barnes 3371 

Joy  Williams 3372 

Douglas  Whitney  Ward 3374 

Aram  Attarian 3377 

Robert  Black 3380 

Doris  Brin  Walker  Roberson 3384 

James  Walker  Benet  II 3392 

William  Donald  Ames 3400 

Charles  Alfred  Duarte 3412 

Index 3417 

za 


Public  Law  601,  79th  Congress 

The  legislation  under  which  the  House  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities  operates  is  Public  Law  601,  79th  Congress  [1946],  chapter 
753,  2d  session,  which  provides : 

Be  it  enacted  hy  the  Senate  and  Honfte  of  Representatives  of  the  United  States 
of  America  in  Congress  assemhled  *  *  ♦ 

PART  2— RULES  OF  THE  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES 

«     Rule  X 

SEC.  121.    STANDING  COlIMITTEaiS 
******* 

17.  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  to  consist  of  nine  members. 

RtTLE  XI 

POWERS  AND  DUTIES  OF  COMMITTEES 
******* 

(q)   (1)  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities. 

(A)   Un-American  activities. 

(2)  The  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  as  a  whole  or  by  subcommittee, 
is  authorized  to  malvC  from  time  to  time  investigations  of  (1)  the  extent,  charac- 
ter, and  objects  of  un-American  propaganda  activities  in  the  United  States,  (ii) 
the  diffusion  within  the  United  States  of  subversive  and  un-American  propa- 
ganda that  is  in.stigated  from  foreign  countries  or  of  a  domestic  origin  and 
attaclis  the  principle  of  the  form  of  government  as  guaranteed  by  our  Constitu- 
tion, and  (iii)  all  other  questions  in  relation  thereto  that  would  aid  Congress 
in  any  necessary  remedial  legislation. 

Tlie  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  shall  report  to  the  House  (or  to  the 
Clerli  of  the  House  if  the  House  is  not  in  session)  the  results  of  any  such  investi- 
gation, together  with  such  recommendations  as  it  deems  advisable. 

For  the  purpose  of  any  such  investigation,  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities,  or  any  subcommittee  thereof,  is  authorized  to  sit  and  act  at  such 
times  and  places  within  the  United  States,  wliether  or  not  the  House  is  sitting, 
has  recessed,  or  has  adjourned,  to  hold  such  hearings,  to  require  the  attendance 
of  such  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such  books,  papers,  and  documents,  and 
to  take  such  testimony,  as  it  deems  necessary.  Subpenas  may  be  issued  under 
the  signature  of  the  chairman  of  the  committee  or  any  subcommittee,  or  by  any 
member  designated  by  any  such  chairman,  and  may  be  served  by  any  jjerson 
designated  by  any  such  chairman  or  member. 


RULES  ADOPTED  BY  THE  83D  CONGRESS 

House  Resolution  5,  January  3,  1953 

******* 

Rtjle  X 

STANDING   COMMITTEES 

1.  There  shall  be  elected  by  the  House,  at  the  commencement  of  each  Con- 
gress, the  following  standing  committees : 

******* 

(q)   Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  to  consist  of  nine  members. 
******* 

Rule  XI 

POWERS  AND  DUTIES  OF  COMMITTEES 
******* 

17.  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities. 

(a)  Un-American  Activities. 

(b)  The  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities,  as  a  whole  or  by  subcomimittee, 
is  authorized  to  make  from  time  to  time,  investigations  of  (1)  the  extent,  char- 
acter, and  objects  of  im-American  propaganda  activities  in  the  United  States, 
(2)  the  diiTusion  within  the  United  States  of  subversive  and  un-American  propa- 
ganda that  is  instigated  from  foreign  countries  or  of  a  domestic  origin  and 
attacks  the  principle  of  the  form  of  government  as  guaranteed  by  our  Constitu- 
tion, and  (3)  all  other  questions  in  relation  thereto  that  would  aid  Congress 
in  any  necessary  remedial  legislation. 

The  Committee  on  Un-American  Acivities  shall  report  to  the  House  (or  to  the 
Clerk  of  the  House  if  the  House  is  not  in  session)  the  results  of  any  such  investi- 
gation, together  with  such  recommendations  as  it  deems  advisable. 

For  the  purpose  of  any  such  investigation,  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities,  or  any  subcommittee  thereof,  is  authorized  to  sit  and  act  at  such  times 
and  places  within  the  United  States,  whether  or  not  the  House  is  sitting,  has 
recessed,  or  has  adjourned,  to  hold  such  meetings,  to  require  the  attendance 
of  such  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such  books,  papers,  and  documents,  and 
to  take  such  testimony,  as  it  deems  necessary.  Subpenas  may  be  issued  under 
the  signature  of  the  chairman  of  the  committee  or  any  subcommittee,  or  by  any 
member  designated  by  such  chairman,  and  may  be  served  by  any  person  desig- 
nated by  any  such  chairman  or  member. 

VI 


INVESTIGATION  OF  COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE 
SAN  FKANCISCO  AREA— PART  4 


FBIDAY,  DECEMBER  4,   1953 

United  States  House  of  Rei>resentatives, 
Subcommittee  of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities, 

San  Francisco^  Calif. 

public  hearing 

The  subcommittee  of  the  Committe  on  Un-American  Activities  met, 
pursuant  to  adjournment,  at  9:  30  a.  m.,  in  the  hearing  room  of  the 
board  of  supervisors,  city  hall,  Hon.  Harold  H.  Velde  (chairman) 
presiding. 

Committee  members  present:  Representatives  Harold  H.  Velde 
(chairman) ,  Donald  L.  Jackson,  Gordon  H.  Scherer,  and  Clyde  Doyle. 

Staff  Members  present :  Robert  L.  Kunzig  and  Frank  S.  Tavenner, 
Jr.,  counsel ;  William  A.  Wheeler  and  W.  Jackson  Jones,  investigators ; 
and  Juliette  P.  Joray,  acting  clerk. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  committee  will  be  in  order.  The  Chair  yields  to  the 
gentleman  from  California,  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Mr.  Chairman,  in  accordance  with  rule  10  of  the  rules 
of  procedure  for  the  House  Commitee  on  Un-American  Activities, 
House  of  Representatives,  a  telegram  was  dispatched  on  yesterday  to 
Representative  Robert  Condon,  extending  to  him  the  opportunity  to 
appear  before  the  committee  if  he  so  desires.  This  is  in  accordance 
with  the  standard  procedure  of  the  committee  in  notifying  any  indi- 
vidual wiio  is  adversely  named  during  an  open  hearing  of  the  com- 
mittee as  Communist,  Fascist,  or  a  member  of  a  subversive  organiza- 
tion, and  offering  the  same  forum  in  which  the  allegation  was  made 
for  the  purpose  of  affirming  or  denying  any  statement  which  might 
reflect  upon  an  individual's  character. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Counsel,  do  you  have  a  witness? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes,  INIr.  Chairman.     Kathleen  Griffin  Hee. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  that  you  will  tell  the  truth,  the 
whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mrs,  Hee.  I  do. 

Mr.  Velde.  Let  the  record  show  that  for  the  purposes  of  this 
hearing  I  have  set  up  a  subcommittee  consisting  of  Mr.  Donald  Jack- 
son, Mr.  Gordon  Scherer,  Mr.  Clyde  Doyk,  and  myself,  as  chairman, 
for  the  purpose  of  this  hearing. 

3349 


3350       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

TESTIMONY  OF  KATHLEEN  GRIFFIN  HEE,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HER 

COUNSEL,  MORGAN  V.  SPIECER 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Will  you  state  your  full  name,  please,  for  the  record  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  Kathleen  Griffin  Hee. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  note  that  you  are  accompanied  by  counsel.  Would 
counsel  kindly  state  his  name  and  address  for  the  record? 

Mr.  Spiecer.  Morgan  V.  Spiecer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Your  address,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Spiecer.  San  Francisco,  office  addrefes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Hee,  when  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  was  born  in  Vancouver,  British  Columbia,  Canada, 
in  1911. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  presently  a  citizen  of  the  United  States  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  Yes,  I  am. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  and  where  were  you  naturalized? 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  became  American  citizen  through  the  nauralization  of 
my  father  while  I  was  still  a  minor. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  "^^^len  was  that,  do  you  know?  When  your  father 
became  a  citizen  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  My  father  was  naturalized  in  1940. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  your  present  address,  please,  Mrs.  Hee  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  live  in  Berkeley. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  "Wliat  address? 

Mrs.  Hee.  2464  Prince  Street. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  your  present  employment,  if  you  are  employed? 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  am  a  waitress. 

Mr.  'KuNziG.  Where  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  At  the  Clairmont  Hotel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Hee,  yesterday  you  were  named  in  sworn  testi- 
mony before  this  committee  as  having  been  a  member  of  the  Political 
Affairs  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party  of  Alameda  County. 
Would  you  please  affirm  or  deny  that  statement? 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  didn't  hear  the  testimony  of  yesterday's  session. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Then  I  shall  ask  you  in  a  different  way;  have  you 
ever  been  a  member  of  the  Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  of  Alameda  County  ? 

]Mrs.  Hee.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  under  the  fifth  amend- 
ment. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  that  to  do  so 
might  tend  to  incriminate  you  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  That  to  do  so  would  require  that  I  would  be  a  witness 
against  myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  In  a  criminal  proceeding,  as  the  fifth  amendment  goes. 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  don't  believe  that  the  fifth  amendment  has  been  re- 
stricted to  simply  criminal  procedures.  I  believe  it  has  been  consid- 
ered to  apply  to  activities  of  this  committee. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  Charles  Blodgett,  who  testified  here 
yesterday  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party, 
Mrs.  Hee? 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3351 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Hee.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Counsel,  is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should 
be  further  retained  under  subpena  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  witness  is  dismissed.     Call  the  next  witness,  please. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mildred  Bowen. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Miss  Bowen.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  MILDRED  BOWEN,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HER 
COUNSEL,  LAWRENCE  SPEISER 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  state  your  full  name,  please,  and  spell  it 
for  the  record? 

Miss  BowEK.  Mildred  Bowen,  B-o-w-e-n. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  see  that  you  are  accompanied  by  counsel,  so  would 
counsel  please  state  his  name  and  office  address  once  again  for  the 
record  ? 

Mr.  Speiser.  I  am  Lawrence  Speiser,  staff  counsel  of  the  American 
Civil  Liberties  Union  of  Northern  California,  503  Market  Street, 
San  Francisco. 

Mr.  KuxziG.  It  is  Miss  or  Mrs.  ? 

Miss  BowEN.  Miss. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Miss  Bowen,  would  you  please  tell  us  when  and  where 
you  were  born  ? 

Miss  BowEN.  Born  in  Chicago,  111.,  August  9,  1903. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Your  present  address? 

Miss  BowEN.  604  28th  Street,  Oakland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  currently  employed? 

Miss  BowEX.  No.  I  am  not.  As  I  believe  one  of  the  spokesmen 
for  the  committee  expressed  the  hope  that  the  witnesses  before  this 
committee  would  be,  I  find  myself  high  and  dry  since  Tuesday  morn- 
ing ;  unemployed  since  Tuesday  morning. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Where  were  you  employed  j^rior  to 

Miss  BowEX.  I  would  prefer  not  answer  that  question. 

Mr.  KuxziG.  Are  you  not  answering  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth 
amendment  ? 

Miss  BowEX.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuxziG.  You  refuse  to  answer  as  to  your  employment  because 
to  so  do  might  tend  to  incriminate  you  ? 

Miss  BowEX.  Yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  line  with  the  policy  of  the  committee,  you  are  di- 
rected to  answer  the  question. 

41002— 54— pt.  4 2 


3352        COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Miss  BoAVEN.  I  refuse  to  answer  the  question  on  the  same  <]jronnd. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  ever  attend  a  meeting  of  the  Political  Affairs 
Committee  of  the  Communist  Party  of  Alameda  County  ? 

(At  this  point  Miss  Bowen  conferred  with  Mr.  Speiser.) 

Miss  BowEN.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  on  the  ground  that 
it  infringes  my  rights  under  two  amendments  to  the  Constitution, 
first  amendment  and  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr,  KuNziCx.  Did  you  hear  the  testimony  of  Mr.  Blodgett  yesterday  ? 

Miss  BowEN.  I  was  here  during  most  of  the  afternoon.  I  was  not 
here  during  all  of  the  morning.  I  was  out  of  the  room  on  one  occasion 
during  the  afternoon  yesterday. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  know  Charles  Blodgett? 

Miss  BowEN.  Well,  that  question  has  to  do  with  association.  I 
refuse  to  answer  a  question  of  that  sort  under  the  protection  afforded 
me  by  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  chairman  of  the  Communist  Party 
of  Contra  Costa  County  as  w^as  testified  here  yesterday  ? 

Miss  BowEN.  That  question,  too,  I  feel  I  am  not  required  to  answer 
because  the  fifth  amendment  guarantees  that  no  citizen  shall  be 
required  to  be  a  witness  against  himself. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Do  you  decline  to  answer  the  question  ? 

Miss  BowEN.  I  do. 

Mr.  Jackson.  For  the  reason  previously  stated  ? 

Miss  BowEN.  And  for  the  reason  I  stated  in  my  answer. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well. 

Mr.  KuNzio.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party 
at  any  time.  Miss  Bowen  ? 

(At  this  point  Miss  Bowen  conferred  with  Mr.  Speiser.) 

Miss  BowEN.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  under  the  pix)tection 
afforded  me  by  the  first  and  fifth  amendments  to  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Miss  Bowen.  That  question,  too,  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  same 
grounds. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  no  further  questions.  It  is 
obvious  the  witness  will  not  cooperate. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  None. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  notice  in  your  answers  you  quoted  a  section  of  the 
fifth  amendment  where  you  claimed  the  constitutional  privilege.  You 
also  referred  to  the  first  amendment.  Wliat  portion  of  the  first  amend- 
ment do  you  refer  to  ? 

Miss  Bowen.  Well,  in  answer  I  want  to  say  that  I  don't  pretend  to 
be  a  lawyer,  and  I  don't  intend  to  engage  in  a  legal  sparring.  I  under- 
stood that  under  the  first  amendment  I  am  guaranteed  the  right  of  free 
speech  and  association. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Very  well. 

Mr.  Jackson.  The  Supreme  Court,  I  might  say,  has  found  that  the 
right  of  free  speech  does  not  connote  the  opposite,  the  right  of  silence, 
and  that  is  the  finding  of  the  highest  court  of  the  land. 

(At  this  point  Miss  Bowen  conferred  with  Mr.  Speiser.) 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3353 


Mr.  Jackson.  However,  as  long  as  the  other  essential  amendment  is 
there,  I  see  no  harm  in  taking  the  hrst. 

Miss  BowEN.  As  I  said  before,  I  am  not  able  to  engage  in  a  legal 
battle  with  attorneys.  I  did  understand  that  this  question,  however, 
is  still  pending  before  the  Supreme  Court. 

Mr.  Jackson.  It  is  not  my  intention  to  enter  into  any  legal  sparring, 
but  merely  to  point  out  that  there  has  been  such  a  hnding. 

Miss  BowEN.  I  see. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Counsel,  is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should 
be  further  retained  under  subpena  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  If  not,  the  witness  is  dismissed.  Call  your  next  witness, 
please. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Ole  Fagerhaugh. 

Is  Mr.  Ole  Fagerhaugh — 0-1-e  F-a-g-e-r-h-a-u-g-h — present  in  the 
room  as  required  to  be  under  subpena  ? 

Mr.  Chairman,  would  the  police  kindly  check  in  the  halls  and  see 
if  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  is  in  the  hall  ? 

In  the  meantime,  j\Ir.  Chairman,  while  they  are  checking,  with  your 
permission  we  will  take  another  witness. 

Mr.  Velde.  Fine. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Joseph  Melia,  M-e-1-i-a. 

Mr.  Velde.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  in  the  testimony  you  are  about 
to  give  before  this  subcommittee  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and 
nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Melia.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOSEPH  MELIA,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HIS  COUNSEL, 

HENEY  ELSON 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  your  name,  sir? 

Mr.  Mell^.  Joseph  Melia. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  that  M-e-1-i-a  ? 

Mr.  Melia.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Will  counsel  please  state  his  name  and  address  for 
the  record? 

Mr.  Elson.  My  name  is  Henry  Elson,  E-1-s-o-n.  Mr.  Counsel,  are 
you  interested  in  my  office  address? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes. 

Mr.  Elson.  I  am  afraid  I  can't  answer  that  question,  sir.  It  seems 
that  my  former  emplo^yer  considered  my  representation  of  Mr.  Melia 
at  this  committee  hearing  inconsistent  with  my  employment,  and  as 
such,  terminated  the  same. 

Mr.  KuNziG,  In  what  county  are  you  a  member  of  the  bar? 

Mr.  Elson.  Alameda  County. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  the  witness  please  continue  now  ?  I  would  like 
to  ask :  When  and  where  were  you  born,  Mr.  Melia. 

Mr.  Melia.  I  was  born  in  1916  in  New  York. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  your  present  address,  sir? 

Mr.  Melia.  Berkeley. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  your  address  ? 

Mr.  Melm.  1617  Parker  Street. 

Mr.  KuNziG,  Are  you  currently  employed,  and  if  so,  where? 


3354       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Melia.  I  would  like  to  answer  this  question,  Mr.  Counsel,  on  the 
basis  that  it  seems  to  me  this  question  is  not  pertinent  to  the  inquiiy. 
If  your  interest  is  in  blackmailing  or  blacklistin|^,  that  is  one  thing ;  if 
it  is  pertinent  to  the  inquiry,  that  is  something  else. 

Mr.  Velde.  Let  me  disabuse  your  mind  that  we  are  blackmailing 
or  blacklisting  any  witness  who  appears  here.  We  are  seeking  infor- 
mation relative  to  subversive  activities  in  this  area,  and  that  is  all. 

There  is  no  reason  why  you  shouldn't  give  your  present  address. 

Mr.  Melia.  I  understand  that  two  witnesses  have  already  lost  their 
jobs.  I  heard  the  previous  witness  say  that  she  has  lost  her  job,  and 
yet  you  say  this  is  pertinent. 

Mr.  Velde,  It  certainly  is  pertinent. 

Mr.  Melia.  If  it  is  pertinent,  I  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds 
of  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Velde.  Your  answer  will  be  pertinent,  too. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  If  the  witness,  Mr.  Chairman,  is  refusing  to  answer 
where  he  is  employed  on  the  grounds  that  to  do  so  might  tend  to 
incriminate  him,  may  I  respectfully  request  that  he  be  directed  to 
answer  ? 

Mr.  Velde.  Yes,    certainly;    you    are    directed    to    answer    that 

question. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Melia  conferred  with  Mr.  Elson.) 

Mr.  Melia.  I  have  already  stated  my  answer  on  that  same  grounds. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  mean  the  refusal  to  answer  the  question? 

Mr.  Melia.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Velde.  Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Melia.  I  want  to  make  it  clear,  however,  that  since  you  said 
this  was  pertinent  to  the  inquiry,  that  it  is  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth 
amendment,  and  I  therefore  refuse  to  be  a  witness  against  myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Melia,  do  you  know  Charles  Blodgett? 

Mr.  Melia.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  the  grounds  that  it 
might  incriminate  me,  and  on  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Blodgett  testified  here  yesterday  that  he  knew  you 
as  a  member  of  the  Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the  Communist 
Party  of  Alameda  County.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  that 
committee  ? 

Mr.  Melia.  My  political  beliefs,  I  believe,  are  my  own.  I  think 
that  the  first  amendment  to  the  Constitution  provides  that  a  person 
may  have  free  speech  and  free  association.  I  therefore  refuse  to 
answer  that  question,  both  on  the  grounds  of  the  first  amendment 
and  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment,  on  the  grounds  of  the 
ninth  and  tenth  amendments. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party  ? 

Mr.  Melia.  My  answer  is  the  same. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr.  Mfxia.  My  answer  is  the  same. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  Dickson  Hill,  the  former  undercover 
agent  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation 

Mr.  Melia.  My  answer  is  the  same. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Just  let  me  finish  the  question,  do  you  mmd?  Do 
you  know  Dickson  Hill,  who  testified  here  that  he  had  been  a  former 

FBI  agent? 
Mr.  Melia.  My  answer  is  the  same. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3355 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Undercover  agent  for  the  FBI  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  For  the  reasons  previously  stated? 

Mr.  Melia.  For  the  reasons  previously  stated. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Melia,  Mr.  Hill  identified  you  and  said  he  knew 
you  to  be  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party.     Did  you  know  Mr.  Hill  ? 

Mr.  Melia.  I  have  already  answered  that  question. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  ask  that  you  direct  the  witness  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  witness  is  directed,  in  the  line  with  regular  policy 
of  the  committee,  to  answer  that  question.  There  is  no  reason  that 
we  can  see  why  that  would  tend  to  incriminate  you  in  any  way,  your 
acquaintanceship  with  any  person. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Melia  conferred  with  Mr.  Elson.) 

Mr.  Melia.  My  refusal  to  answer  that  question  is  based  on  the  fifth 
amendment ;  I  will  not  be  a  witness  against  myself. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  think,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  record  ought  to  show  at  this 
point  that  in  addition  to  what  our  chairman  has  said  about  the  pur- 
pose of  this  investigation,  the  abundant  evidence  shows  that  the  Com- 
munist Party  is  subversive  in  its  activities  and  purposes.  I  wish  to 
reiterate  again,  we  are  not  interested  in  anyone  that  may  differ  in 
opinion,  have  different  political  beliefs,  but  because  it  is  well  estab- 
lished that  the  Communist  Party  is  subversive  in  its  intents  and  pur- 
poses, we  are  interested  in  uncovering  any  person  or  any  group  of 
persons  that  are  subversive. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  chair  concurs  with  the  gentleman  from  California. 
Is  there  any  reason,  Mr.  Counsel,  why  this  witness  should  be  further 
retained  under  subpena  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No  reason,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  witness  is  dismissed.  Call  your  next  witness, 
please. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Paul  Schlipf,  S-c-h-1-i-p-f. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  tlie  testimony  you^are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  that  you  will  tell  the  truth,  the 
whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  PAUL  SCHLIPF,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HIS  COUNSEL, 

GEORGE  ANDERSEN 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  kindly  state  your  full  name,  please? 
Mr.  ScHLirr.  My  name  is  Paul  Schlipf. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  spell  it,  please,  sir? 
Mr.  ScHixiPF.  S-c-h-1-i-p-f. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  note  you  are  accompanied  by  counsel.  Would  coun- 
sel please  state  his  name  and  office  address  for  the  record? 


3356     coMivruisTisT  activities  in  the  san  francisco  area 

Mr.  Andersen.  My  name  is  George  Andersen,  240  Montgomery 
Street,  San  Francisco. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  your  present  address,  Mr.  Sclilipf  ? 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  I  live  in  Oakland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  street  address? 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  791  Pros]Dect, 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  and  where  were  you  born,  sir  ? 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  I  was  born  in  1905  in  Indiana. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Where  in  Indiana? 

Mr.  ScpiLiPF.  On  a  farm. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  the  farm  near,  the  town,  please,  or  city? 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  Well,  it  is  between,  almost  equidistance  between  a 
couple  of  towns. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now  would  you  please  name  those  towns,  Mr.  Schlipf  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Well,  Goodland  is  one  of  them. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  do  you  spell  that? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Goodland? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Goodland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  G-o-o-d-l-a-n-d? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  G-o-o-d-l-a-n-d,  Goodland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  see.    That  is  the  name  of  the  town  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr,  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  beg  your  pardon  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  that  the  name  of  the  town  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Yes ;  and  another  town,  Remington,  I  believe  is  a  little 
closer.    It  is  the  Corn  Belt  district. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  your  present  employment,  Mr.  Schlipf  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  am  a  factory  worker. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  "^Vliere  are  you  employed  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  am  employed  in  Oakland  in  an  automobile  plant. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  secretary  of  the  Alameda  County 
labor  union,  CIO? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Yes,  yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  "Wlien  was  that,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Andersen.  Wait  just  a  moment,  please. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Velde.  Yes ;  give  the  witness  an  opportunity  to  consult  with  his 
counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Certainly,  all  the  time  in  the  world. 

Mr.  Andersen.  Would  you  repeat  the  question,  please? 

Mr.  Velde.  Will  the  reporter  repeat  the  question,  please? 

(The  question  was  read  by  the  reporter  as  follows :  ""N^-lien  was  that, 
sir?") 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  don't  recall  the  exact  dates.  It  was  over  a  period  of 
time  before  the  war  and  then  I  was  away  in  the  Army  for  4  years,  and 
then  I  was  again  active  in  that  capacity'  after  the  war. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Were  you  ever  at  any  time  the  legislative  assistant,  to 
tlie  California  CIO  council? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  period  of  time  was  that? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Well,  that  was — I  again  don't  remember  the  exact 
dates ;  approximately  4  or  5  years  ago,  I  would  say. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA       3357 


Mr.  KuxziG.  Duriiio;  the  time  that  you  were  legislative  assistant  for 
the  CIO  council  here  in  California  were  you  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Well,  this  is  one  of  these  typical  questions  that  this 
committee  has  asked  all  over  the  country,  and  I  would  like  to  have 
an  opportunity  to  answer  it  in  my  way  as  fully  as  I  am  capable  of. 
I  am  not  an  attorney,  but  I  would  like  to  decline — I  shall  decline  to 
answer  that  question  on  a  number  of  grounds. 

I  have  thouglit  about  this  committee  and  its  work  for  a  long  time, 
when  Dies  was  chairman  of  the  committee  and  ever  since. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  this  is  not  responsive.  I  respectfully 
request  that  the  witness  be  asked  to  answer  the  question  either  yes 
or  no. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  am  trying  to  answer  this  question,  and  I  am  a 
citizen,  and  I  think  I  have  a  right  to  answer  it  and  not  answer  it  in 
a  loaded  way  the  way  the  counsel  here  wants  me  to. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Witness,  it  has  long  been  a  policy  of  this  committee, 
and  I  think  the  policy  is  right,  that  if  you  will  answer  the  question, 
then  we  will  give  you  all  the  time  which  you  require  to  explain  that 
answer. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Velde.  But  first  of  all  you  should  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  said  I  decline  to  answer  the  question,  and  I  ask  that 
you  listen  to  my  reasons.  I  have  heard  this  committee  or  members  of 
this  committee  or  read  in  transcript  where  they  have  told  M^itnesses 
they  wish  to  have  the  witnesses  explain  their  thoughts  to  them,  that 
they  are  out  seeking  information  around  the  word  "subversive"  and 
that  sort  of  thing. 

By  the  way,  these  words  that  are  bandied  around,  I  am  just  a  simple 
soul  and  perhaps  don't  understand  the  meaning  too  much. 

Mr.  Velde.  So  are  we  all  simple  souls,  too,  I  assure  you  of  that. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  would  dare  say  that  the  word  "subversive"  would 
have  probably 

Mr.  Jackson.  This  has  nothing  to  do,  Mr.  Chairman,  with  the 
answer  to  the  question.  The  witness  has  declined  to  answer,  and  I 
respectfully  request 

Mr.  Schlipf.  All  right,  I  would  like  to  state  my  reasons. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  can't  talk  very -well  here  when  I  am  constantly 
heckled  and  interrupted. 

Mr.  Velde.  We  have  heard  this  time  and  time  again,  the  same  old 
line. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Maybe  you  should  listen  again. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  folks  who  come  before  this  committee  and  refuse 
to  answer  questions  relative  to  subversive  activities 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  don't  like  to  be 

Mr.  Velde.  Will  you  please  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  shall. 

Mr.  Velde.  And  if  you  do  answer  the  question,  I  assure  you  that 
you  will  be  given  plenty  of  time  to  explain  your  answer. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  decline  to  answer 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Sclilipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 


3358       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  I  want  to  give  you  the  answer  as  the  rules  of  this 
committee,  the  law,  requires.  I  want  to  do  it  as  a  citizen.  I  do  not 
want  to  disrespect  anyone  here  or  any  rules  that  are  established,  but 
I  would  like  to  give  my  reasons  fully  because  I  think  they  are  im- 
portant ;  they  are  important  to  me. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  that  is  not  an  answer ;  he  is  declining  to 
answer. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  question  is  very  simple. 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  Yes 

Mr.  Velde.  It  can  be  answered  very  easily  yes  or  no. 

Mr.  SciiLiPF.  This  question  is  not  simple. 

Mr.  Velde.  Now,  if  you  will  answer  the  question  yes  or  no,  then 
certainly  we  will  give  you  adequate  time  to  explain  your  answer. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  would  like  to  answer  this  question,  Mr.  Chairman, 
in  my  own,  answer  it  fully.  I  have  given  a  lot  of  thought  to  it 
in  answer,  the  way  I  feel  about  it  in  my  own  way.  Am  I  permitted 
to  do  that? 

Mr.  Velde.  We  have  a  great  number  of  witnesses  who  are  sub- 
penaed  to  appear  before  this  committee.     How  long  will  it  take  you? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  It  will  not  take  very  long.  This  committee  func- 
tions all  year,  and  I  am  sure  that  you  don't  wish  to  cut  off  the  rights 
of  a  citizen  if  he  wishes  to 

Mr.  Velde.  Certainly  we  don't  want  to  cut  off  anyone's  rights,  but 
we  would 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Velde.  Any  further  disturbance  will  result  in  clearing  the 
hearing  room. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Well,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  decline  to  answer  this  ques- 
tion for  a  number  of  reasons.  First,  I  believe  that  under  the  Bill 
of  Rights,  which  is  a  great  document,  evolved  over  800  years,  that 
this  committee  does  not  have  the  right  to  go  about  the  country  and 
inquire  into  the  associations  and  beliefs  and  the  opinions  of  the  elec- 
torate. I  was  in  Germany  during  the  war  as  a  soldier,  and  I  speak 
German,  and  I  was  able  to  speak  to  many  citizens  there,  and  I  asked 
them  repeatedly,  why  did  they  permit  Hitlerism  and  fascism  to  get 
into  power  in  Germany,  and  they  told  me  it  varied,  that  they  could 
do  nothing  about  it  because  everyone  was  afraid  to  speak.  They  said 
they  always  felt  there  was  somebody  looking  over  their  shoulder; 
they  could  not  talk  to  their  neighbors  or  their  associates  about  their 
political  opinions,  nor  could  they  organize  to  defeat  fascism. 

I  had  the  specific  experience  of  one  man  who  was  an  electrical 
engineer  who  worked  for  me  when  I  was  more  or  less  in  charge  of 
a  project  of  rebuilding  Rouen  for  the  army  of  occupation,  who  was 
put  in  prison  for  2  years  because  on  his  way  home  he  told  a  neighbor 
that  he  thought  Germany  was  going  to  lose  the  war,  and  a  stool  pigeon 
heard  him  and  took  him  before  one  of  the 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  respectfully  request  this  is  not  an 
answer ;  this  is  a  long  tirade  that  we  usually  hear. 

Mr.  Velde.  There  is  no  question  about  it  in  the  Chair's  mind  or 
that  of  any  member  of  the  committee,  I  am  sure.  You  are  directed 
to  answer  the  question. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3359 

Mr.  ScHLiPF,  I  will  conclude,  that  I  think  it  is  my  duty  to  resist 
such  questions  as  Mr.  Truman  has  said,  to  be  resisted  at  all  levels, 
and  therefore  I  decline  on  the  1st  amendment,  where  I  think  you  have 
no  right  to  inquire  into  the  free  association  and  thoughts  of  the 
American  electorate,  and  on  the  5th  amendment  where  I  refuse  to  be 
a  witness  against  myself,  and  on  the  9th  amendment  and  the  10th 
amendment. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  All  right.    Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  continue? 

Mr.  Velde.  Continue,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  My  first  question,  Mr.  Schlipf,  was  connected  with 
the  time  when  you  were  allegedly  assistant  for  the  CIO  council  in 
California.  I  now  ask,  were  you  at  any  time  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  refuse  to  answer  it  on  the  same  basis,  the  1st,  the 
5th,  the  9th  and  10th  amendments. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Mr.  Schlipf,  do  you  know  Charles  Blodgett  who 
testified  here  yesterday  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  don't  know  that  he  testified.    I  wasn't  here. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Do  you  know  a  Charles  Blodgett  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  heard  and  read  in  the  press  that  there  was  a  paid 
stool  pigeon  here  by  the  name  of  Blodgett  who  testified  yesterday. 

Mr.  Velde.  That  remark  also  will  be  stricken  from  the  record. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Just  a  moment.    May  I  ask  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Perhaps  it  is  a  bit  emotional 

Mr.  Jackson.  Who  paid  the  stool  pigeon  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Well,  I  have  had  experience  with  stool  pigeons  over 
many  years  in  the  labor  movement,  and  I  always  found  out  or  assumed 
that  they  were — it  wasn't  an  assumption — you  found  out  they  were 
paid  in  some  way  or  other. 

Mr.  Jackson.  You  have  made  a  very  serious  charge  which  implicates 
the  Congress  of  the  United  States  and  the  House  of  Representatives 
in  that  you  have  said  that  the  witness  who  appeared  yesterday  was 
paid. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  think  perhaps,  Mr.  Chairman — I  will  not  complete  my 
statement  until  this  witness  is  through  consulting  his  counsel. 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  would  like  to  pursue  this  matter,  however,  to  its 
conclusion. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Well,  I  assume  from  the  way  this  committee  has 
functioned  in  the  past  that  there  are  no  restrictions  on  paying  these 
kind  of  people  that  come  before  them 

Mr.  Velde.  You  certainly  have  made  a  very  wrong  assumption, 
Mr.  Schlipf,  and  I  want  to  assure  you  that  fact  is  true. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  You  mean  to  say  this  man  is  not  paid  for  coming  out 
here  in  any  way  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  He  is  paid  his  transportation  costs,  he  is  not  paid 

Mr.  Velde.  Just  the  same  as  you  are  paid,  and  you  have  a  right  to 
receive  pay, 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  lost  2  days'  wages  over  this  thing  after  444  weeks' 
layoff. 

41002 — 54 — pt.  4 3 


3360       COMAIUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  might  say  the  American  people  are  in  possession  of 
much  more  information  by  defraying  the  travel  expense  of  the  other 
witnesses  than  they  are  from  yours. 

The  charge  that  the  Congress  of  the  United  States  has  paid  an  in- 
former to  give  testimony  before  this  committee  is  a  reprehensible 
charge ;  it  has  no  foundation  in  fact. 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  I  think  informers  were  paid  in  the  Bridges  case  and 
in  many  cases. 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  am  not  talking  about  in  many  cases.  I  am  talking 
about  the  charge  you  liave  just  made  against  this  committee  and  against 
the  Congress  of  the  United  States  that  an  informer  was  paid  to  give 
testimony.  That  is  an  unmitigated  falsehood.  It  has  absolutely  no 
foundation  and  is  characteristic  of  the  attacks  made  upon  this  com- 
mittee by  people  who  interests  lie  elsewhere  than  in  the  welfare  of 
the  United  States  of  America. 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  Can  my  attorney  cross-examine  this  man  as  to  whether 
he  is  paid  or  not  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  If  your  attorney  wants  to  read  the  rules  of  procedure 
of  the  committee,  he  will  find  out  that  he  cannot  at  this  time  cross- 
examine  the  witness.  However,  if  you  want  to  deny  the  allegations  of 
the  witness,  you  may  have  an  opportunity  in  Federal  court  to  have 
such  cross-examination. 

Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party?  And  here  is 
your  o[)portunity  to  get  cross-examination. 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  I  will  answer  that  on  the  same  basis  that  I  answered 
the  other  questions. 

Mr.  Jackson.  You  decline  to  answer  for  the  reason  it  might  tend 
to  incriminate  you  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  No,  not  that  it  would  tend  to  incriminate  me.  I 
answer  on  the  basis  of  the  fifth  amendment,  that  I  do  not  wish  to  be  a 
witness  against  myself. 

Mr.  Jackson.  For  fear  of  possible  self-incrimination? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  have  the  fifth  amendment  here. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes,  we  are  quite  familiar  with  it ;  we  have  heard  it 
at  some  length. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  don't  see  that 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  witness  always  conveniently  forgets  to  read  out 
the  phrase  "in  criminal  proceeding."    That  is  in  there,  too. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.'i 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  have  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Witness,  I  should  like  to  ask  you  with  regard  to 
the  testimony  given  by  Mr.  Blodgett  yesterday.  He  testified  under 
oath,  swore  under  oath,  that  you  were  a  member  of  the  Political 
Affairs  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party  of  Alameda  County. 
Were  you  ever  such  a  member? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  didn't  hear  this  witness.  I  didn't  hear  him  say  it, 
and  I  would  like  to  see  the  record. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Well,  I  will  just  ask  you  this  way :  Have  you  ever  been 
a  member  of  the  Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party 
in  Alameda  County  ? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3361 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  I  think  this  is  an  invasion  of  my  rights  under  the  Bill 
of  Rights,  and  I  will  answer  on  the  same  basis  that  I  decline  to  answer 
under  the  1st,  5th,  9th,  and  10th  amendments. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  What  does  the  10th  amendment  provide  ? 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  I  have  it  before  me. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No,  you  undoubtedly 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  It  says  that  the  power  is  not  delegated  to  the  United 
States  by  the  Constitution 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes,  I  wondered  whether  you  would,  without 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  I  would  like  to  finish  it. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No  ;  that  is  all  right. 

Mr.  ScHLiPF.  Prohibited  by  the  States — reserved  to  the  States 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes;  we  are  familiar  with  it. 

Mr.  Velde.  Let  me  ask  you  this  question,  Mr.  Witness.  If  the  Cali- 
fornia Senate  committee  on  un-American  activities  were  to  ask  you 
the  question,  Were  you  ever  a  member  of  the  Political  Affairs  Commit- 
tee of  the  Communist  Party 

Mr.  ScHLirF.  I  am  still  a  member  of  the  people. 

Mr.  Velde.  Would  you  answer  the  question  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Velde.  If  you  want  the  rights  reserved  to  the  State  of  Cali- 
fornia, certainly  I  think  you  should  be  entitled  to  appear  before  that 
committee  and  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  This  is  an  "iffy"  question.     What  was  it  again? 

Mr.  Velde.  The  question  is.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the 
Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  And  you  said  if  the  State  what? 

Mr.  Velde.  If  the  State  senate  committee  on  un-American  activi- 
ties  

Mr.  Schlipf.  Or  the  Oakland 

Mr.  Velde.  Were  to  ask  you  that  question,  would  you  answer  it? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Well,  I  think  I  had  better  wait  until  the  committee 
asks  me  that. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Mr.  Chairman,  counsel  for  the  witness  is  prompting 
the  witness  in  his  answers  in  direct  contravention  of  the  rules  of 

Mr.  Andersen.  Counsel  is  not.  I  am  advising  him,  and  I  under- 
stand that  is  the  privilege  that  I  have. 

Mr.  Velde.  Counsel  has  no  right  to  put  words  into  the  mouth  and 
mind  of  the  witness. 

Mr.  Andersen.  My  name  is  not  Bergen,  and  Mr.  Schlipf's  name  is 
not  McCarthy.    I  don't  put  any  words  in  his  mouth. 

Mr.  Velde.  No;  your  name  is  Andersen. 

Mr.  Andersen.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Regardless  of  what  words  you  are  putting  in,  they 
are  coming  out  of  him  word  for  word  as  dictated  by  you. 

Mr.  Andersen.  How  can  you  hear  me  consult  with  my  client? 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  can  hear  perfectly  well  because  you  have  engaged  in 
loud  and  audible  conversation. 

Mr.  Andersen.  The  other  day  my  partner,  Mr.  Gladstein,  wanted 
the  mike  cut  off  when  he  talked  to  his  client.    You  assured  him,  Mr. 


3362       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Jackson,  that  anything  he  said  was  not  being  picked  up  on  the  micro- 
phone. 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  am  not  listening  to  you  through  the  mike. 

Mr.  Andersen.  That  was  a  deliberate  misstatement  because  on  that 
same  night  over  the  radio  I  heard  my  partner,  Gladstein,  consulting 
and  could  hear  his  words,  consulting  with  his  client,  the  very  thing 
you  assured  him  wouldn't  be  done. 

Let  us  continue  with  the  hearing. 

Mr.  Jackson.  This  committee  has  no  control  over  the  radio  facili- 
ties going  out  of  this  room. 

Mr.  Andersen.  They  are  your  facilities. 

Mr.  Jackson.  The  remarks  I  have  heard  have  been  remarks  which 
have  been  directed  by  you  in  an  audible  tone,  clearly  understandable 
at  this  position.  They  have  been  words  which  have  been  repeated 
verbatim  by  the  witness  which  I  again  state  is  in  contravention  and 
violation  of  the  rules  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  Andersen.  I  hope  it  was  good  advice. 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  hope  it  was,  too. 

Mr.  Velde.  Counsel 

Mr.  Andersen.  Shall  we  continue? 

Mr.  Velde.  The  rules  of  the  committee  on  the  rights  of  counsel 
are  that  he 

Mr.  Andersen.  I  have  read  them. 

Mr.  Velde  (continuing).  Has  a  right  to  represent  his  client,  to 
advise  with  him,  and  of  course  the  counsel  also  knows  that  he  does 
not  have  the  right  to  put  words  into  the  witness'  mouth 

Mr.  Andersen.  Of  course. 

Mr.  Velde  (continuing.)  To  tell  the  witness  what  to  say  in  answer 
to  the  question. 

Mr.  Andersen.  You  are  so  right. 

Mr.  Velde.  This  question  that  is  pending  at  the  present  time  is 
this :  If  the  California  Senate  committee  on  un-American  activities — 
you  have  declined  to  answer  our  question  on  the  grounds  of  the  10th 
amendment,  and  if  the  California  committee  were  to  ask  you  whether 
or  not  you  are  a  member  of  the  Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the 
Communist  Party  of  Alameda  County,  would  you  answer  that  ques- 
tion, or  would  you  refuse  to  answer  the  question  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Well,  if  and  when  any  committee  wants  me  to  appear 
before  them,  I  will  answer  their  questions  as  I  see  fit,  as  I  think  I 
should  as  a  citizen  of  the  country.  However,  I  would  like  to  point 
out  that  I  think  these  questions  of  associations,  who  you  talk  to,  who 
your  friends  are,  and  that  sort  of  thing  are  things  that  are  reserved 
to  the  people  and  is  the  people's  right.  Perhaps  to  be  on  safe  grounds 
I  should  say  I  will  answer  your  question  on  the  basis 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Does  that  answer  your  question  ? 

Mr.  Velde.  Of  course  it  doesn't. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  You  have  asked  me  an  "iffy"  question. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Suppose  I  answer  that  I  will  decide  what  to  do  when 
that  time  comes  before  that  committee  since  I  am  not  before  that 
particular  committee  now. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3363 

Mr.  Velde.  The  question  was  merely  asked  of  you  for  the  reason 
that  "we  want  to  get  the 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Velde  (continuing).  The  real  truth  about  subversion,  about 
the  Communist  Party,  and  other  organizations,  and  if  you  would  tell 
the  California  committee  the  truth  about  your  joining  the  Communist 
Party,  any  activity  on  the  Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the  Com- 
munist Party,  we  wouldn't  care  at  all.  We  would  be  very  happy  to 
have  you  appear  before  any  other  committee. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  would  like  to  make  this  observation :  I  think  it  is 
the  word  "subversion"  that  I  don't  understand.  However,  I  believe 
that  the  Victorian  age,  in  its  time,  would  probably  call  the  Republican 
Party  subversive  now.  It  is  a  relative  term.  I  don't  know  what  you 
are  talking  about. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let  me  ask  one  more  question,  if  I  may. 

Mr.  Velde.  All  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  any  group  seeking 
to  overthrow  the  Government  of  the  United  States  by  force  and 
violence  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  ought  to  get  away  from  party  names,  Mr.  Chair- 
man. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Mr.  Chairman,  this  committee  and  other  McCarthy 
forces  have  put  millions  of  people  on  the  subversive  list,  and  this  is?- 
another  one  of  those  trick  questions,  and  I  am  going  to  decline  to 
answer  it  on  the  basis  of  my  rights  under  the  Bill  of  Bights,  the  1st 
amendment,  the  5th  amendment,  and  the  9th  and  the  10th  amendments. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  May  I  just  state  for  the  record,  Mr.  Chairman,  of 
course  there  is  nothing  trick  about  any  such  question.  It  is  asked,  for 
example,  of  every  employee,  of  the  millions  of  employees  of  the  Fed- 
eral Government  and  has  been  for  many  years  under  previous  admin- 
istrations and  under  this  one. 

I  have  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  was  an  employee  of  this  Government  for  4  years, 
fighting  against  fascism. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  During  the  war. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  What  years  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  1941 — not  quite  4  years,  3  years,  9  months. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  All  right.  Let  me  ask  you  this:  When  you  were  a 
soldier  working  and  fighting  for  the  Federal  Government  were  you 
also  at  the  same  time  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  have  already  answered  your  question. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  it  might  incrimi- 
nate you  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  No,  on  the  grounds  that  I  will  not  be  a  witness  against 
myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  In  a  criminal  proceeding.    No  further  questions. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  will  not  be  a  witness  against  myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  think  he  has  has  made  his  position  clear. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Jackson. 


3364     coMJvruNiST  activities  in  the  san  francisco  area 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes.  I  liave  a  very  plain  question  not  a  trick  one,  I 
can  assure  you.  It  is  a  question  any  loyal  American  citizen  could 
very  well  answer.  Do  you  believe  that  an  American  citizen  should 
pay  his  first  allegiance  to  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  on 
which  you  depended  for  protection  today,  or  rely  on  the  constitution 
of  the  Soviet  Union  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  resent  the  question.     It  is  ridiculous. 

Mr.  Velde.  We  don't  care  whether  you  resent  it  or  not. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  resent  it  very  much. 

Mr.  Velde.  Answer  the  question. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  am,  of  coui-se,  loyal  to  the  Constitution  of  the  United 
States. 

Mr.  Jx^cKSON.  You  are  loyal  to  the  Constitution  of  the  United 
States  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Yes. 

Mr.  Jackson.  You  have  never  taken  any  step  which  you  consider  to 
be  disloyal  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr,  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Jackson.  That  is  a  question. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Is  that  a  statement  or  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Have  you  ever  taken  any  step  which  could  be  consid- 
ered disloyal  to  the  United  States? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Are  you  asking  me  an  opinion  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  No,  I  am  asking  you  if  you  have  ever  taken  any  step 
disloyal  to  the  United  States.     Either  you  have  or  haven't. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  By  my  standards  I  certainly  have  not.  But  the  stand- 
ards of  this  committee,  I  don't  know  what  their  standards  are. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Do  you  believe  a  person  can  be  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  and  still  be  a  loyal  American  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Is  that  my  belief  you  are  asking  for  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes ;  is  it  your  contention  that  one  can  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  think  you  are  trying  to  make  this  the  issue,  and  it 
is  not  the  issue  here  at  all.  If  I  could  engage  in  a  political  debate 
with  you,  perhaps  we  could  clarify  each  other's  opinions  on  this  ques- 
tion, but  I  don't  think  this  is  the  time  and  place  for  political  debate 
because  I  don't  think  that  is  what  you  are  here  for. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  then,  in  your  opinion,  a  loyal  citizen  ? 

( At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen. ) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Yes,  definitely. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  have  answered  that  question. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  decline  to  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  It  is  on  the  record,  my  answer.  My  answer  is  on  the 
record. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  asked  it  again. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  have  already  answered  that. 

(Representative  Donald  L.  Jackson  left  the  hearing  room  at  this 
point.) 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3365 

Mr.  Velde.  You  mean  you  refused  to  answer  ? 

Mr,  ScHLiPF.  I  have  given  my  reasons  for  my  answer. 

Mr.  Velde.  All  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  have  no  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  D0Y1.E.  I  have  made  a  note,  Mr.  Schlipf.  You  said  this  com- 
mittee did  not  have  the  right  to  go  about  the  country. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  stated  that  is  my  opinion.  I  said  not  the  right  to 
go  about  the  country — to  go  about  the  country  doing  various  things, 
causing  people  to  lose  their  jobs. 

Mr.  DoYLE.  You  have  had  quite  a  few  minutes  to  give  your  reasons 
and  make  a  statement.    "Will  you  let  me  make  a  statement,  please  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  beg  your  pardon. 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  want  to  call  your  attention  to  the  fact  that  this  com- 
mittee not  only  has  a  right  to  go  about  the  countiy  and  investigate, 
look  into  the  subject  of  subversive  activities,  but  it  has  the  duty  so 
to  do,  and  it  has  the  duty  because  your  own  Congress 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Doyle.  Will  you  listen  please,  witness,  just  a  minute'? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  am  listening,  sir. 

(Representative  Donald  L.  Jackson  returned  to  the  hearing  room  at 
this  point.) 

Mr.  Doyle.  This  committee  not  only  has  the  right,  but  it  has  the 
legal  duty  to  do  just  what  we  are  doing  under  public  law  601  passed 
in  the  TOtli  Congress. 

I  called  attention  yesterday  to  the  fact  that  we  are  charged  with 
that  duty.  Furthermore,  I  want  to  read  just  a  few  lines  for  your 
information: 

For  the  purpose  of  any  such  investigation  the  Committee  on  Un-American 
Activities  or  any  subcommittee  thereof  is  autliorized  to  sit  and  act  at  such 
times  and  places  within  the  United  States  whether  or  not  the  House  is  sitting, 
has  recessed,  or  has  adjourned :  to  hold  such  hearings  to  require  the  attend- 
ance of  such  witnesses  and  the  production  of  such  books,  papers,  and  documents ; 
and  to  take  such  testimony  as  it  deems  necessary. 

That  is  only  part  of  the  express  authority  under  which  we  are  acting 
and  express  duty  which  we  have  as  members  of  this  committee. 

I  want  the  record,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  speak  prett}'  clearly  on  that 
so  that  those  in  this  liearing  room  and  any  others  will  know  that  this 
committee  is  here  not  only  under  express  statutory  law,  but  we  are 
in  performance  of  an  express  statutory  duty. 

You  mentioned  tlie  CIO  organization,  and  as  long  as  that  has  been 
mentioned  here  in  connection  with  you,  I  wish  to  have  the  record 
show  whatever  the  fact  is.  I  want  the  record  to  show,  Mr.  Chairman, 
that  certainly  I  would  feel  that  this  committee  is  not  by  inference  or 
by  suggestion,  either  directly  or  indirectly — and  I  certainly  don't, 
by  inference  or  suggestion,  have  any  belief  that  because  any  witness 
appears  before  this  committee — either  this  or  any  other  witness  who 
happens  to  be  a  member  of  the  CIO  in  California  or  nationally — 
that  that  labor  organization  is  either  directly  or  indirectly  subversive 
or  disloyal. 

j\Ir.  Velde.  Certainly,  Mr.  Doyle,  the  chair  concurs  in  the  opinion 
and  statement  of  the  gentleman  from  California. 


3366       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  wish  further  to  state  that  I  am  sure  that  the  record 
shows  that  the  CIO  organization  in  good  faith  and  diligently  and 
vigorously  has  undertaken  to  eliminate  from  its  official  family  every 
known  subservise  and  every  known  Communist.  That  is  as  I  under- 
stand the  record  to  be. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Will  you  yield  just  a  minute,  Mr.  Doyle? 

Mr.  Doyle.  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Are  you  still  an  official  of  the  CIO,  in  view  of  Mr. 
Doyle's  statement? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  No. 

Mr.  ScuERER.  I  didn't  get  your  answer. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  The  answer  was  no. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Do  you  want  to  tell  us  how  you  left  the  CIO  leader- 
ship? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  refuse  to  go  into  the  questions  of  my  trade  union 
organization  here  on  the  basis  that  I  think  this  committee  has  no  au- 
thority to  go  into  them,  and  I  decline  to  answer  your  question  on  the 
basis  of  the  first  amendment,  the  fifth  amendment,  the  ninth,  and  the 
tenth  amendments. 

Mr.  SciiERER.  I  know  what  Mr.  Doyle  says  is  true.  The  CIO  in 
my  part  of  the  country  has  gotten  rid  of — and  they  are  to  be  com- 
mended— those  individuals  who  associated 

Mr,  Schlipf.  I  am  a  member  of  the  CIO,  but  I  will  not  go  into 
the  internal  questions  of  my  union  here  before  this  committee.  I 
decline  to  answer  questions  along  that  line. 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  say  you  were  a  member  of  the  CIO  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  say  I  am  a  member  of  the  CIO. 

Mr.  Velde.  At  tlie  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Yes. 

Mr.  Doyle.  You  are  not  a  paid  employee  of  the  CIO,  are  you? 
Or  let  me  change  that. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  No,  I  explained  before 

Mr.  Doyle.  Because  I  don't  want  to  go  into  the  internal  affairs  of 
the  CIO,  either. 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  work  in  a  factory.  I  don't  know  what  you  mean 
then,  Mr.  Doyle,  what  you  are  trying  to  do. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Here  is  what  I  am  trying  to  do :  I  am  trying  to  have 
the  record  speak  whatever  the  fact  is.  I  believe  the  fact  to  be  this, 
that  when  you  participated  in  this  testimony  today  you  have  not  done 
it  while  in  the  employ  of  the  CIO,  isn't  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  ScHERER.  He  answered  that  he  was  no  longer  an  official. 

Mr.  DoYLE.  I  want  to  make  the  record  clear,  wliatever  it  is.  You 
are  not  here  in  any  legislative  capacity  for  the  CIO  nor  official  of  the 
CIO,  are  you  ? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  I  am  here  for  only  one  reason,  and  that  is  because  I 
was  subpenaed. 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  mean,  you  are  not  now  an  employee  of  the  CIO? 

Mr.  Schlipf.  No,  no ;  I  answered  that  question. 

Mr.  Doyle.  That  is  all,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde,  Let  me  say,  I  have  no  questions,  but  let  me  just  make 
this  observation,  that  your  refusal  here  to  testify  before  a  committee 
of  Congress,  duly  authorized  to  investigate  subversive  activities  and 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3367 

propaganda,  as  Mr.  Doyle  pointed  out,  can  only  lead  to  the  inference 
by  this  committee — and  I  am  sure  by  the  members  of  the  Congress — 
that  you  must  be  engaged  in  subversive  activities  at  the  present  time. 

Is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should  be  further  retained 
under  subpena? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  If  not  the  witness  is  dismissed,  and  call  your  next  wit- 
ness. 

(At  this  point  Mr,  Schlipf  conferred  with  Mr.  Andersen.) 

Mr.  Schlipf.  Can  I  reply  to  that,  Mr.  Chairman  ?  Can  I  reply  to 
that  ? 

Mr.  Velde.  You  are  dismissed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  now  has  arrived. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  that  you  will  tell  the  truth,  the 
whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  OLE  FAGERHAUGH,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HIS  COUNSEL, 

ROBERT  E.  TREUHAFT 

Mr.  KuxziG.  Would  you  state  your  full  name,  please,  for  the  record  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  My  name  is  Ole  Fagerhaugh. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  do  you  spell  that,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  First  name,  0-1-e ;  last  name,  F-a-g-e-r-h-a-u-g-h. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Fagerhaugh,  I  see  you  are  accompanied  by  counsel. 
Would  he  please  state  his  name  and  address  for  the  record  ? 

Mr.  Treuhafi.  My  name  is  Kobert  E.  Treuhaft,  attorney  at  law, 
1440  Broadway,  Oakland.     I  would  like  to 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Fagerhaugh 

Mr.  Treuhaft.  Mr.  Kunzig,  I  would  like  to  say  one  word.  I 
understand  that  at  the  close  of  my  testimony  yesterday  a  ruling  was 
made  that  my  subpena  was  continued.  Since  t  consider  a  subpena  by 
this  committee  a  form  of  intimidation 

Mr.  Jackson.  No,  yours  was  not  extended,  Mr.  Treuhaft.  The  ac- 
tion pertained  to  the  witness  who  preceded  you. 

Mr.  Treuhait.  Is  it  understood  then  that  I  am  no  longer  under 
subpena  before  this  committee  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes ;  when  you  were  dismissed  from  the  committee, 
you  were  dismissed  from  any  further^obligation  of  the  subpena. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Mr.  Fagerhaugh,  would  you  state  your  address,  please? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  live  at  2285  East  lOth  Street,  Oakland. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  When  and  where  were  you  born,  sir? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  Well,  I  was  born  in  May  in  the  year  of  the  San 
Francisco  earthquake,  but  I  assure  you  I  was  born  in  Norway,  so  I 
couldn't  have  had  anything  to  do  with  that.  I  was  born  in  Tromso, 
Norway,  T-r-o-m-s-o. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Are  you  now  a  citizen  of  the  United  States? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  am. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Wlien  did  you  become  a  citizen? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  became  a  citizen  by  virtue  of  my  father's  be- 
coming a  citizen  wliile  I  was  still  a  minor. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  When  did  he  become  a  citizen? 

41002—541 — pt.  4 4 


3368       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Fagerhafoh.  I  tliink  it  was  in  1912,  if  I  am  not  mistaken. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  your  present  employment,  sir? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  am  a  warehouseman. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Where  are  you  employed  ? 

(Upon  order  of  the  Chairman,  certain  remarks  of  the  witness  were 
ordered  stricken  at  this  point.) 

Mr.  Velde.  Will  you  answer  the  question,  please?  Wliat  is  your 
employment  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  conferred  with  Mr.  Treuhaft.) 

(Upon  order  of  the  chairman,  certain  remarks  of  the  witness  were 
ordered  stricken  at  this  point.) 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  conferred  with  Mr.  Treuhaft.) 

Mr.  Velde.  Now  will  you  answer  the  question,  Mr.  Witness,  or  give 
your  legal  basis  for  refusing  to  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  Well,  I  am  trying  to  give  my  reasons,  including 
my  legal  reasons  for  refusing  to  answer  this  question,  and  I  would  like 
to  proceed  to  do  that  if  the  committee  will  permit. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Your  opinion  of  the  committee  is  not  a  legal  reason 
for  refusing  to  answer  the  questions.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  the  com- 
mittee is  not  at  all  concerned  with  your  opinion  of  it. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  am  going  to  object  to  counsel  in  this  case  again 
telling  the  witness  what  to  say. 

Mr.  Treuhaft.  I  am  going  to  object  to  the  committee  making  in- 
ferences that  are  unjustified. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  counsel  should  know  his  rights  to  confer  with  his 
witness.    This  is  not  a  court  of  law  as  counsel  well  knows. 

Mr.  Treuhaft.  I  am  aware  of  that. 

Mr.  Velde.  This  is  a  committee  of  Congress  trying  to  ascertain  the 
true  facts  about  subversion  in  this  country,  and  I  ask  that  the  counsel 
for  the  witness  please  remember  that  fact  and  act  in  accordance  with 
the  rules  of  the  committee. 

Will  the  witness  answer  the  question  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  Will  you  repeat  the  question,  please? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  believe  if  I  recall  correctly  that  the  question  was, 
Where  are  you  presently  employed  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  am  going  to  continue  to  stand  on  my  right  not 
to  answer  that  question  because,  as  I  say,  the  committee  is  already  fully 
aware  of  where  I  am  employed,  and  I  don't  see  any  purpose 

Mr.  Scherer.  Frankly  I  don't  know  where  you  are  employed ;  I  have 
no  idea  where  you  are  employed,  and  the  record  should  show  where  you 
are  employed.    It  is  not  on  the  record,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Frankly,  I  don't  know,  either,  and  I  don't  know  whether 
any  member  of  the  committee  knows. 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  would  rather  the  committee  enter  that  fact  into 
the  record  from  their  own  records.  I  am  not  going  to  be  a  party  to 
dragging  my  employer  into  this  smear  campaign. 

Mr.   Jackson.  Does   the   committee   know   where  the  witness   is 

employed?  .         o    t    ^      i  i 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes.  sir.    May  I  answer  that  m  1  minute «    1  should 

like  first  to  request  that  the  witness  be  directed  to  answer  that  question, 

and  then  I  will  ask  another  one  about  the  address. 

Mr.  Velde.  Certainly,  the  witness  is  directed  to  answer  the  question. 

"Wliere  are  you  employed  ? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3369 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  conferred  with  Mr.  Treuhaft.) 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  am  going  to  decline  to  answer  that  question  on 
the  grounds  of  my  rights  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNziG,  Let  me  put  it  this  way,  Mr.  Fagerhaugh:  Are  you 
employed  at  the  Illinois  Glass  Co.,  601  36th  Avenue,  Oakland,  so  that 
the  record  will  state  correctly  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  Same  answer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  feel  that  to  answer  "Yes"  or  "No"  to  that  question 
would  incriminate  you? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  don't  feel  that  that  answer  or  any  answer  I 
might  give  here  might  incriminate  me.  I  have  committed  no  crime. 
I  am  guilty  of  no  crime,  and  I  have  nothing  to  fear.  Now,  my  rights 
under  the  Constitution  state  that  I  may  decline  to  answer  this  ques- 
tion on  the  grounds  that  I  am  guaranteed  the  right  not  to  act  as  a 
witness  against  myself,  and  for  further  reasons 

Mr.  Velde.  In  a  criminal  proceeding;  is  that  not  true?  And  you 
say  you  have  committed  no  crime  whatsoever.  Then  do  you  still  feel 
that  you  are  entitled  to  the  protection  of  the  fifth  amendment,  when 
you  have  committed  no  crime? 

(At  this  point  INIr.  Fagerhaugh  conferred  with  Mr.  Treuhaft.) 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  want  to  make  very  clear  my  position  on  this 
because  what  is  said  here  today  may  some  day  be  used  in  a  court  of 
law,  and  so  I  want  it  clearly  understood  the  reason — my  reasons  for 
claiming  the  right  not  to  answer  this  question  under  the  fifth  amend- 
ment, and  I  would  like  to 

Mr.  Velde.  Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  witness  has  refused  to  answer  on 
the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment  and  has  said  under  oath  he  has 
not  committed  any  crime.  I  should  like  therefore  to  ask  him  this 
question,  whether  you  have  ever  been  a 

Mr.  Treuhaft.  Just  a  moment,  counsel.  The  answer  has  not  been 
finished,  and  you  have  interfered  and  interrupted. 

Mr.  Velde.  Comisel  knows  his  right  to  advise  with  his  client ;  it  is 
limited  to  that. 

Mr.  Treuhaft.  I  want  to  consult  with  my  client. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  conferred  with  Mr.  Treuhaft.) 

Mr.  Velde.  Give  the  counsel  an  opportunity  to  talk  with  the  wit- 
ness. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  may  I  continue  with  the  questioning? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  would  like  toxiontinue 

Mr.  KuNziG.  There  is  no  question  before  the  witness. 

Mr.  Velde.  There  is  no  question  before  the  witness. 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  have  not  finished  answering  my  reasons. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  have  been  given  permission  and  opportunity  to 
confer  Avith  your  counsel.     No  question  is  pending, 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  still  didn't  finish  the  question  that  was  asked. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  For  the  record,  to  make  it  clear,  the  previous  question 
the  witness  declined  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment. 
Now  I  ask  this  question,  Mr.  Fagerhaugh:  Have  you  ever  been  a 
member  of  the  Communist  Party 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  conferred  with  Mr.  Treuhaft.) 

Mr.  KuNziG  (continuing).  Political  Affairs  Committee  of  Alameda 
County  ? 


3370       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  am  not  going  to  answer  any  further  questions 
until  I  have  been  given  an  opportunity  for  the  record  to  give  a  com- 
plete answer  to  the  last  question  that  was  asked  of  me. 

Mr.  Veij)e.  Well,  will  you  give  a  complete  answer,  or  will  you  refuse 
to  answer,  as  you  have  done  before  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  want  to  give  my  reasons  for  declining  to 
answer. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  may  give  your  reasons,  your  explanation,  if  you 
will  answer  the  question,  but  certainly  not  if  you  refuse  to  answer  the 
question. 

Mr.  Fagenhaugh.  I  think  it  should  be  made  very  clear  my  reasons 
for  refusing  to  answer  this  question  because  the  committee  seems  to 
raise  the  question,  well,  what  have  I  to  fear  to  answer  a  question  like 
where  do  I  work.  Well,  for  the  sake  of  the  record,  I  want  my  reasons, 
I  want  to  give  my  reasons  for  declining  to  answer  under  the  fifth 
amendment  because  this  case  may  come  into  a  court  of  law,  and  I  want 
it  clearly  understood  what  my  reasons  are.     Now,  I  would  like — — 

Mr.  Velde.  You  say  you  have  committed  no  crime.  Then  how  can 
you  sit  there  and  claim  the  privileges  against  self-incrimination? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  Because  the  fifth  amendment  was  drawn  up  to 
protect  the  innocent  as  well  as  the  guilty,  as  you  well  Iniow,  and 
Chief  Justice  Rutledge  has  said,  and  if  I  may  quote  him 

Mr.  Velde.  The  committee  is  well  aware  of  the 

Mr.  FagerhL:\ugh.  I  am  not  so  certain  the  committee  is  well  aware, 
and  for  the  record  I  would  like  to  give  a  brief  quote. 

Mr.  Jackson.  In  regular  order,  Mr.  Chairman,  let  us  have  the  ques- 
tions and  get  the  declinations  or  the  answers. 

Mr.  Velde.  If  the  witness  continues  to  make  voluntary  statements 
not  in  answer  to  the  question  that  counsel  asks  and  the  members  of 
this  committee  ask,  I  assure  you  that  you  will  be  removed  from  the 
hearing  room. 

Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  question  now  before  the  witness  which  he  has 
been  evading,  Mr.  Chairman,  is :  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the 
Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party  of  Alameda 
County,  a  very  simple  question  to  answer. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  conferred  with  Mr.  Treuhaft.) 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  Pardon  me,  what  was  the  question  ? 

(Representative  Donald  L.  Jackson  left  the  hearing  room  at  this 
point.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Well,  I  just  wonder  how  you  can  confer  all  that  time 
without  Imowing  the  question,  but  I  will  repeat  it  for  about  the  fourth 
time,  Mr.  Witness.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Political 
Affairs  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party  of  Alameda  County,  as 
was  testified  here  yesterday  by  Mr.  Blodgett  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the  grounds 
of  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party 
at  any  time  whatsoever? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  likewise  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the 
grounds  of  my  rights  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNzTG.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Fagerhaugh.  I  further  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the 
grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3371 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  I  have  no  further  questions 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Fagerhaugh  conferred  with  Mr.  Treuhaft.) 

Mr.  Velde.  Except  I  would  like  to  make  this  observation  as  I  did 
with  the  previous  witness :  Your  refusal  to  give  this  committee  infor- 
mation concerning  subversive  activities  in  which  you  might  have  been 
engaged  or  that  you  might  have  been  engaged  in  in  this  area  can  only 
lead  us  to  believe  that  you  must  presently  be  engaged  in  subversive 
activities. 

Is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should  be  further  retained 
under  subpena  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  witness  is  dismissed,  and  the  committee  will  be  iir 
recess  for  10  minutes. 

( Wliereupon,  at  10 :  47  a.  m.,  the  hearing  was  recessed  to  reconvene 
at  10 :57  a.m.) 

(The  hearing  reconvened  at  11 :  02  a.  m.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Carroll  Barnes. 

(Representative  Donald  L.  Jackson  returned  to  the  hearing  room 
at  this  point.) 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Barnes.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CARROLL  BARNES,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HIS  COUNSEL, 

LAWRENCE  SPEISER 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  state,  sir,  your  full  name  for  the  record 
and  spell  it,  please  ? 

Mr.  Barnes.  Carroll  Barnes,  C-a-r-r-o-1-1  B-a-r-n-e-s. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  see  that  you  are  represented  by  counsel.  Would 
counsel  please  state  his  name  once  again  for  the  record  ? 

Mr.  Speiser.  Lawrence  Speiser.  I  am  the  staff  counsel  of  the  Amer- 
ican Civil  Liberties  Union  of  north  California;  my  address  is  503 
Market  Street,  San  Francisco. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Barnes,  would  you  kindly  state  your  present 
address,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Barnes.  1027  9th  Street,  Oakland. 

Mr.  KuNzTG.  You  were  born  when  and  where,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Barnes.  I  was  born  July  20,  1906,  in  what  is  now  the  State  of 
Oklahoma. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  presently  employed? 

Mr.  Barnes.  I  am  not. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yesterday  in  sworn  testimony  before  this  committee, 
Mr.  Barnes,  you  were  identified  by  Charles  Blodgett  as  a  member  of 
the  Alameda  County  committee  of  the  Communist  Party.  Have  you 
ever  been  a  member  of  such  committee  ? 


3372       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

* 

Mr.  Barnes.  Mr.  Counsel,  I  invoke  the  first  amendment  to  the  Con- 
stitution, the  fifth  amendment  to  the  Constitution,  and  the  ninth  and 
tenth  amendments  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  decline  to  answer  ? 

Mr.  Barnes.  I  decline  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  were  also  identified  by  Dickson  Hill,  a  former 
undercover  agent  of  the  FBI  as  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party. 
Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Barnes  conferred  with  Mr.  Speiser.) 

Mr.  Barnes.  I  decline  to  answer  the  question  on  the  grounds  previ- 
ously stated. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Barnes.  My  answer  is  the  same. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  ever  know  a  Charles  Blodgett  ? 

Mr.  Barnes.  The  answer  is  as  previously  stated,  I  decline  to  answer. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Did  you  know  Dickson  Hill  ? 

Mr.  Barnes.  I  decline  to  answer  on  the  previously  stated  grounds. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr,  Sclierer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should  be  further 
retained  under  subpena,  Mr.  Counsel  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  witness  is  dismissed,  and  call  your  next  witness, 
please. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  call  Mr.  Paul  Chown. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  respectfully  request  that  we  have  the  committee 
investigators  and  the  police  institute  an  immediate  search  for  Mr. 
Chown.  He  has  been  around  here  quite  sometime.  It  is  rather  inter- 
esting that  he  is  not  present  now. 

Mr.  Velde.  That  request  is  certainly  granted.  Do  you  have  another 
witness  to  call  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  would  appreciate  very  much  if  you  would  see  if 
Mr.  Chown  is  around.    He  made  plenty  of  speeches  out  front. 

Joy  Williams,  please. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  JOY  WILLIAMS,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HER  COUNSEL, 

EDWARD  NEWMAN 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Mrs.  Williams,  will  you  please  state  your  full  name 
for  the  record  ? 
Mrs.  Williams.  My  name  is  Joy  Williams. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Would  counsel  please  identify  himself  for  the  record? 
Mr.  Newman.  My  name  is  Edward  Newman,  N-e-w-m-a-n. 
Mr.  Kunzig.  And  your  oflSce  address,  sir  ? 


COJVIMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3373 

Mr.  Newman.  My  office  address  is  at  967  B  as  in  "Baker"  Street  in 
Hayward, 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mrs.  Williams,  when  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  was  born  in  Oakland,  Calif. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  when  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  1913. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Whait  is  your  present  address,  please  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  live  in  Oakland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  at  what  address  in  Oakland  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  5646  Marywood  Drive. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  wonder  if  you  could  perhaps  move  just  a  little  closer 
to  that  microphone.     It  is  very  difficult  to  hear. 

Are  you  employed,  Mrs.  Williams? 

(At  this  point  Mrs.  Williams  conferred  with  Mr.  Newman.) 

Mrs.  Williams.  I  would  like  to  make  my  position  clear  before  this 
committee.  I  think  perhaps  it  would  save  the  committee  time,  and 
I  would  sincerely  like  to  be  as  little  misunderstood  as  possible.  The 
question  is,  am  I  employed  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes. 

Mrs.  Williams.  As  I  have  already  stated,  I  was  born  in  Oakland, 
Calif.,  and  I  have  always  been  very  proud  of  that  citizenship  with 
whicli  I  was  born,  and  of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  and  the 
rights  that  it  guarantees  its  citizens,  including  me,  and  I  have  felt  all 
my  life  very  strongly  on  the  question  of  freedom  of  speech  and  the 
right  of  people  to  peacefully  assemble,  the  freedom  from 

Mr.  Velde.  May  I  interrupt  and  say  this,  that  if  you  are  proud  of 
your  citizensliip,  wowld  you  be  helpful  to  this  committee  and  tell  this 
committee  whether  or  not  you  are  employed  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  Yes,  I  am  coming  to  that.  It  is  part  of  theques- 
tion  that  I  am  answering,  and  I  will  be  very  brief,  and  I  think  in  the 
long  run  it  will  save  the  committee  time  on  this  question.  I  am 
answering  it. 

On  the  question  of  my  beliefs  and  my  sincere  confidence  which  has 
been  growing,  in  the  necessity  for  defending  this  Constitution,  and 
particularly  the  first  and  fifth  amendments,  I  feel  it  is  my  duty  as  sl 
citizen  to  defend  it.  I  look  upon  this  questioning  this  way,  and  this 
is  why  I  must  decline  to  answer  questions  about  my  beliefs,  and  in 
the  future,  if  you  should  ask  me  any,  other  people's  beliefs  and  specu- 
late on  these  matters,  and  I  claim 

Mr.  Velde.  The  request  as  to  the  matter  of  your  employment  has 
nothing  to  do  with  your  beliefs ^ 

Mrs.  Williams.  Of  course  this  is  a  very  difficult  thing  to  think 
through  completely,  but  I  think  the  question  of  whether  or  not  I  am 
employed — I  claim  the  fifth  amendment  on  this. 

Mr.  Velde.  Let  me  ask  you,  are  you  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

(At  this  point  Mrs.  Williams  conferred  with  Mr.  Newman.) 

Mrs.  Williams.  There  are  two  questions  before  me.  I  was  just 
finisliing  answering  the  one  on  employment. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  other  question  has  been  retracted  and  stricken  from 
the  record. 

Mrs.  Williams.  It  has  ? 

Mr.  Velde.  By  the  order  of  the  Chair.  The  question  now  pending 
is,  Are  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  at  the  present  time? 


3374       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mrs.  Williams.  This  is  included  in  my  previous  remarks.  I  must 
answer  such  a  question  by  appealing  to  the  fifth  amendment  and  my 
rights  to  not  say  anything  which  might  be  construed  as  incriminating 
me. 

Mr.  Velde.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Williams.  This  is  the  same  kind  of  question,  and  I  must  rely 
on  my  rights  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Let  me  make  this  clear,  you  are  under  no  compul- 
sion. You  say  you  must  rely  on  it.  Do  you  so  rely  ?  Do  you  decline 
to  answer  the  question  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment? 

(At  this  point  Mrs.  Williams  conferred  with  Mr.  Newman.) 

Mrs.  Williams.  Yes,  I  decline  on  the  same  grounds  stated. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well ;  thank  you. 

Mr.  Velde.  Do  you  have  further  questions,  Mr.  Jackson? 

Mr.  Jackson.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  No. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  No. 

Mr.  Velde.  Is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should  be  retained 
under  subpena? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  If  not,  the  witness  is  dismissed,  and  you  may  call  your 
next  witness. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Doug  Ward,  W-a-r-d. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee, do  you  solemnly  swear  that  you  wiJl  tell  the  truth,  the 
whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God? 

Mr.  Ward.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DOUGLAS  WHITNEY  WAED,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HIS 

COUNSEL,  LAWRENCE  SPEISER 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  state  your  full  name,  please,  for  the 
record  ? 

Mr.  Ward.  My  name  is  Douglas  Whitney  Ward. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let  the  record  show  that  Mr.  Speiser  is  again  attor- 
ney. We  recognize  him  as  counsel  previously  for  other  witnesses 
here  today. 

Mr.  Ward,  what  is  your  present  address,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Ward.  827  16th  Street,  Sparks,  Nev. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  and  where  were  you  born,  Mr.  Ward? 

Mr.  Ward.  I  was  born  in  Fort  Scott,  Kans.,  on  the  28th  day  of 
October  in  1910. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Wliere  are  you  presently  employed,  sir? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Ward  conferred  with  Mr.  Speiser.) 

Mr.  Ward.  I  wish  to  decline  to  answer  that  question,  Mr.  Counsel, 
on  the  grounds  of  the  first  and  fifth  amendment,  and  to  state  at  the 
same  time  that  I  propose  to  refuse  on  the  same  grounds  to  answer  any 
other  questions  concerning  employment. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  witness  states  that  he  wishes  to 
decline.    Does  he  so  decline  to  answer  ? 

Mr.  Ward.  I  do,  yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Thank  you. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3375 

Mr.  KuNziG.  In  order  then  to  get  the  record  straight,  Mr.  Chair- 
man, I  wish  to  ask  this  question  in  tliis  way :  Are  you  presently  em- 
ployed by  the  Southern  Pacific  Railroad  in  Sparks,  Nov.? 

Mr.  Ward.  Same  answer,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  refuse  to  answer  that  question  upon  the  grounds 
that  to  answer  where  you  are  employed  might  incriminate  you  ? 

Mr.  Ward.  Yes,  sir;  that  is  correct. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Working  for  the  Southern  Pacific  Railroad  can  be 
Incriminating? 

Mr.  Ward.  I  will  stand  on  my  previous  answer. 

Mr.  KuNziG,  Now,  you  were  identified  as  a  former  Communist 
Party  member  during  testimony  j^esterday  by  Charles  Blodgett. 
Have  you  ever  been,  Mr.  Ward,  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr.  Ward.  I  decline  to  answer  that  question,  also,  Mr.  Counsel,  on 
the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Ward.  I  am  not. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  in  1952  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  W^ard  conferred  with  Mr.  Speiser.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  can  save  a  little  time  if  you  will  give  us  the  dates 
because  you  must  know  I  am  going  through  them  all. 

Mr.  Ward.  At  this  time,  Mr.  Counsel,  I  wish  to  decline  to  answer 
that  question  on  the  grounds  of  the  first  and  fifth  amendments,  and 
I  do  intend  also  to  refuse  on  the  same  grounds  to  answer  any  other 
questions  about  political  affiliations  or  associations. 

Mr.  Jacksox.  You  say  you  wish  to  decline.     Do  you  so  decline? 

Mr.  Ward.  I  do. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let  me  get  this  straight.  You  say  that  you  are  not 
now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  but  when  asked  whether  you 
were  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  in  1952,  you  refused  to  answer ; 
is  that  correct  ? 

Mr.  Ward.  Mr.  Counsel,  I  am  sorry  that  I  don't  remember  exactly 
how  the  original  question  about  that  that  you  asked  me  was  phrased, 
but  if  you  will  repeat  the  original  question  that  I 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  think  the  record  stands  clear  for  itself.  Were  you 
a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  yesterday  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Ward  conferred  with  Mr.  Speiser.) 

Mr,  Ward.  Well,  that,  Mr.  Counsel,  I  think  is  the  same  type  of  ques- 
tion that  I  declined  to  answer  before,  and  consequently  I  must  now 
decline  to  answer  that  question  also  pn  the  grounds  previously  stated. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  So  that  we  are  to  understand  that  you  are  not  now  a 
member  of  the  Communist  Party,  but  as  to  whether  you  were  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Communist  Party  yesterday  you  refuse  to  answer  on  the 
grounds  of  the  fiftli  amendment,  is  that  right? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Ward  conferred  witli  Mr.  Speiser.) 

Mr.  \V^\RD.  I  stand  on  my  previous  answer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Just  let  me  ask  one  further  question.  Do  you  know 
Charles  Blodgett? 

Mr.  Ward.  I  will  decline  to  answer  that  question  also,  Mr.  Counsel^ 
on  the  grounds  of  the  first  and  fifth  amendments  and  in  so  doing  state 
my  intention  of  similarly  declining  to  answer  any  other  questions 
about  associations  with  persons. 

41002— 54— pt.  4 5 


3376       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  KmsrziG.  Then  let  us  get  away  from  persons  and  ask  you :  Have 
you  ever  been  a  member  of  any  group  seeking  to  overthrow  the  Gov- 
ernment of  the  United  States  bj  force  and  violence  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Ward  conferred  with  Mr.  Speiser.) 

Mr.  Ward.  I  will  decline  to  answer  that  question  also  on  the  same 
grounds. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  One  further  question:  Have  you  ever  been  political 
editor  of  the  Peoples  World,  a  newspaper  here  in  this  county? 

Mr.  Ward.  Well,  that,  I  believe,  Mr.  Counsel,  is  a  matter  of  asso- 
ciations, and  since  I  have  already  stated  my  intention  to  do  so,  I  will 
reiterate  at  this  time  that  I  decline  to  answer  that  question  on  the 
grounds  of  the  first  and  fifth  amendments. 

Mr.  KuNZTG.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  That  might,  in  your  opinion,  be  a  matter  of  association, 
but  it  has  to  do  with  your  employment  also.  I  want  the  record  to 
show  at  this  point,  at  the  suggestion  of  the  gentleman  from  California, 
Mr.  Doyle,  that  the  committee  has  a  duty  imposed  upon  it  to  ascertain 
the  extent  of  infiltration  and  subversion,  particularly  at  the  present 
time,  of  the  Communist  Party  into  various  fields  of  employment. 
The  reason  that  you  are  asked  concerning  your  employment  is  to 
enable  this  committee  to  determine  the  extent  of  infiltration  of  sub- 
versive activities  into  the  various  industries,  various  fields  of  em- 
ployment. 

Do  you  have  a  question,  Mr.  Jackson  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  No  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  DoTLE.  I  wish  to  say  to  the  gentleman  that  I  am  assuming  that 
you  have  withdrawn  from  the  Communist  Party  in  utmost  good  faith 
and  because  you  are  opposed  to  its  teachings.  On  that  assumption, 
therefore,  I  wish  to  urge  you  to  now  be  at  least  as  active  against  the 
teachings  of  the  Communist  Party  as  I  assume  you  were  when  you 
were  a  member  of  it.  I  am  inferring  from  your  testimony  that  there 
was  a  time  when  you  were  a  member  of  it. 

Mr.  Ward.  I  don't  believe  that  is  a  reasonable  inference,  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  DoTLE.  •  Well,  I  wanted  to  state  frankly  to  you  that  to  me  it  is 
a  reasonable  inference.  If  I  am  an  unreasonable  man  in  that  par- 
ticular, then  I  will  have  to  stand  as  unreasonable  on  that  point,  but 
I  wanted  you  to  be  aware  of  the  fact  that  I  infer  from  the  nature  of 
your  testimony  that  while  you  are  not  a  Communist  today,  you  may 
have  been  a  week  from  today,  but  whatever  the  fact  is,  you  know, 
and  I  therefore  want  to  urge  you,  as  I  do  quite  frequently  any  man 
who  ever  was  a  Communist,  to  be  at  least  as  active  against  the  teach- 
ings of  the  Communist  Party,  you  having  withdrawn  from  the  party 
or  not  today  being  a  member,  again  on  the  assumption  that  you  were 
a  Communist,  as  when  you  were  a  member  of  the  party. 

I  don't  mean  to  discredit  your  testimony  at  all,  sir.  I  just  am 
inferring  that  there  was  a  time  when  you  were  a  Communist  Party 
member,  and  I  therefore  want  to  urge  you  to  be  as  active  against  the 
teachings  of  the  Communist  Party  from  now  on  as  perhaps  you  were 
in  favor  of  the  teachings  of  the  Communist  Party  if  and  when  you 
were  a  member  of  that  party. 


COMIMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3377 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Counsel,  is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should 
be  further  retained  under  subpena  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  If  not,  the  witness  is  dismissed,  and  you  may  call  your 
next  witness. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  wish  to  make  an  announcement  to  some  of  the  wit- 
nesses who  have  suggested  or  given  the  impression  that  they  are  not 
going  to  accept  witness  fees. 

I  wish,  of  course,  to  make  it  perfectly  clear  that  under  the  laws  and 
regulations  they  have  every  right  to  fees  to  which  they  are  entitled, 
and  they  have  only  to  step  up  here  to  the  clerk  and  make  the  arrange- 
ments. That  is  there  for  every  one  of  them.  If  they  so  decline  or 
do  not  wish,  that  is  their  own  action,  of  course. 

Mr.  Velde.  Thank  you,  counsel,  for  making  that  observation. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Aram  Attarian. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Attarian.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  ARAM  ATTARIAN,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HIS  COUNSEL, 

EDWARD  NEWMAN 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Attarian,  would  you  state  your  full  name  for  the 
record,  please  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Attarian  conferred  with  Mr.  Newman.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  And  will  you  kindly  spell  it  so  we  get  it  right? 

The  witness  is  apparently  conferring  with  counsel. 

Mr.  Attarian.  Ibegyourpardon,  will  you  repeat  that,  please? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  state  your  name,  please,  and  spell  it  ? 

Mr.  Attarian.  Aram,  A-r-a-m,  Attarian,  A-t-t-a-r-i-a-n. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  counsel  state  his  name  again  for  the  record  ? 

Mr.  Newman.  My  name  is  Edward  Newman,  Hayward,  Calif. 
Will  the  committee  counsel  identify  himself  for  the  record? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  would  be  delighted  to.  I  think  the  name  is  on  the 
record.  My  name  is  Robert  L.  Kunzig,  counsel  for  the  House  Com- 
mittee of  Un-American  Activities,  member  of  the  bar  of  Philadelphia 
County. 

Mr.  Velde.  Proceed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  the  witness  kindly  give  his  address,  please  ? 

Mr.  Attarian.  24622  Traynor  Court,  Hayward,  Calif. 

ISIr.  Kunzig.  When  and  where  were  you  born,  Mr.  Attarian  ? 

Mr.  Attarian.  November  7, 1915,  Brooklyn,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Are  you  employed,  sir  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Attarian  conferred  with  Mr.  Newman.) 

Mr.  Attarian,  May  I  ask  a  point  of  information  before  the  ques- 
tioning begins  ?    I  would  like 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  asked  a  very  simple  question : 
Is  the  witness  employed,  and  if  so,  would  he  state  where  he  is 
employed  ? 

Mr.  Velde.  Yes,  if  the  witness  will  answer  the  question  you  may 
explain  your  answer. 

Mr.  Attarian.  I  beg  your  pardon. 


3378       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Velde.  The  question  is  very  simple.  If  the  witness  will  answer 
the  question,  then  you  might  explain  your  answer,  but  until  you  do 
answer  the  question  the  committee  cannot  reasonably 

Mr.  Attarian.  Well,  I  want  to  discover  whether  I  have  the  privi- 
lege of  asking  a  point  of  order.  In  other  words,  before  the  first  ques- 
tion is  asked,  before  these  questions  are  asked,  I  would  like  to 
know 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Witness,  you  have  been  subpenaed  here,  have  you 
not? 

Mr.  Attarian.  Yes. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  have  been  subpenaed  as  a  witness  who  might  pos- 
sibly have  some  information  concerning  subversive  activities.  Your 
capacity  now  is  as  a  witness  who  can  give  information  to  this  com- 
mittee, not  to  ask  questions  of  the  committee. 

Now,  will  you  please  answer  the  question  that  is  proposed  to  you 
by  counsel  ? 

Mr,  Attarian.  Proceed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  will  ask  you  again :  Are  you  presently  employed, 
and  if  so,  would  you  please  state  where  ? 

Mr.  Attarlvn.  I  refuse  to  answer  this  question  on  the  grounds 
that  my  answer  will  tend  to  cause  me  to  bear  witness  against  myself 
under  the  provisions  of  the  fifth  amendment  to  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  will  ask  it  this  way,  Mr.  Chairman,  so  our  record  is 
straight :  Are  you  employed  by  Perry's  Studio,  9334  East  14th  Street, 
Oakland,  Calif.? 

Mr.  Attarian.  I  stand  on  my  previous  answer,  refusal  to  answer, 
decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr,  KuNziG,  That  employment  by  this  Perry's  Studio  would  tend 
to  incriminate  you  ? 

Mr.  Attarian,  I  stand  on  my  previous  answer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Attarian,  yesterday  Mr.  Blodgett,  in  testifying 
under  oath  before  this  committee,  said  that  he  had  been  a  member  of 
the  Encinal  Club  of  the  Communist  Party,  and  as  a  matter  of  fact 
he  had  been  chairman  of  this  unit.  Now,  particularly,  Mr,  Attarian, 
since  this  is  a  neighborhood  unit,  a  group  unit  of  the  Communist  Party, 
and  since  it  was  testified  that  you  were  also  a  member,  we  would  like  to 
ask  you  if  you  won't  help  and  cooperate  with  this  committee,  tell  us 
whether  you  were  a  member  of  that  group  of  the  Communist  Party, 
and  then  tell  about  that  unit,  what  you  know  about  it? 

Mr.  Attarian.  This  questian  appears  to  be  a  compounded  question. 

Mr,  Kunzig.  I  will  ask  it  first  simply :  Were  you  a  member  of  the 
Encinal  Club  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Attarian  conferred  with  Mr,  Newman.) 

Mr.  Attarian.  I  am  going  to  answer  this  question,  or  decline  to 
answer  it,  as  I  see  fit 

Mr,  KuNziG,  Would  you  please  do  so,  then  ? 

Mr,  Attarian,  I  assume  that  I  have  a  certain  amount  of  privilege 
in  answering  this  question  in  my  own  way ;  am  I  correct  ? 

Mr,  Jackson.  After  you  answer  it,  you  can  explain  your  reasons  for 
so  answering  it. 

Mr,  Attarian.  I  decline  to  answer  the  question  for  two  reasons: 
One,  it  is  not  my  intention  to  cooperate  with  this  committee.     My 


COMMUNIST  ACTR-ITIES  IX  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3379 

reasons  for  not  wanting  to  cooperate  are  twofold :  One,  a  very  strong 
personal  feeling;  secondly,  my  rights  under  the  fifth  amendment  to 
the  Constitution.     My  personal  feeling 

Mr,  KuxziG.  Xow,  he  answered,  I  believe,  that  he  will  not  answer ; 
he  refused  to  answer  on  the  gi'ounds  of  the  fifth  amendment,  that  his 
answer  may  in  some  way  tend  to  incriminate  him. 

Mr.  Attarian.  I  didn't  say  that. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  are  refusing  to  answer  on  the  gromids  of  the 
fifth  amendment;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  AiTARiAx.  That  is  what  I  said. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Jackson.  What  portion  of  the  fifth  amendment  are  you  relying 
on? 

(At  this  point  ]Mr.  Attarian  conferred  with  Mr.  Newman.) 

Mr.  Attarian.  The  entire  portion  of  it. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Are  you  also  relying  on  that  portion  of  it  which, 
deals  with  possible  self-incrimination  in  a  criminal  action? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Attarian  conferred  with  Mr.  Newman.) 

Mr.  Attarian.  I  am  relying  on  the  entire  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well,  you  are  standing  on  the  whole  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party, 
sir,  at  any  time  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Attarian  conferred  with  Mr.  Newman.) 

Mr.  Attarian.  I  also  decline  to  answer  this  question  on  the  previous 
grounds  stated. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Attarian.  Same  answer. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Do  you  know  Charles  Blodgett? 

Mr.  Attarian.  I  decline  to  answer  this  question  on  the  ground  of 
the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No,  I  have  no  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  have  no  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Velde.  Is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should  be  further 
continued  under  subpena  ? 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  If  not,  the  witness  is  dismissed. 

At  this  point  I  now  appoint  Mr.  Doyle  and  Mr.  Jackson  as  chair- 
man of  a  subcommittee  for  the  purposes  of  the  continuing  hearings. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Mr.  Robert  Black, 

(Representatives  Harold  H.  Velde  and  Gordon  H.  Scherer  left  the 
hearing  room  at  this  time.) 

Mr.  Jackson.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  in  the  testimony  you  are 
about  to  give  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the 
truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Black.  I  do. 


3380       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

TESTIMONY  OF  ROBERT  BLACK,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HIS  COUNSEL, 

HUGH  B.  MILLER 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  Would  you  state  your  name,  please,  for  the  record? 

Mr.  Black.  My  name  is  Robert  Black. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  VVould  counsel  kindly  state  his  name  and  office? 

Mr.  Miller.  Hu^h  B.  Miller,  attorney  at  law,  1095  Market  Street, 
San  Francisco,  Calif. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Black,  would  you  give  us  your  present  address? 

Mr.  Black.  1218  34th  Avenue. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Where  is  that  ? 

Mr.  Black.  Oakland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  and  where  were  you  born,  Mr.  Black  ? 

Mr.  Black.  I  was  born  in  Dundee,  Scotland,  January  12,  1915. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  presently  a  naturalized  citizen? 

Mr.  Black.  I  became  a  citizen  through  my  father. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  did  your  father  become  a  citizen,  if  you  can 
recollect  ? 

Mr.  Black.  Around  1930,  1931. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  presently  employed  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Black  conferred  with  Mr.  Miller.) 

Mr.  Black.  Well,  I  am  going  to  have  to  refuse  to  answer  that 
question,  and  I  have  a  number  of  reasons  why. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let  us  make  it  clear,  you  don't  have  to  refuse. 

Mr.  Black.  I  do  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  reasons  I 
am  going  to  state  now :  First,  on  the  grounds  that  this  committee  is 
violating  my  rights  and  the  rights  of  all  Americans  which  are  guaran- 
teed by  the  first  amendment  to  the  Constitution,  that  is,  the  right  of 
association,  the  right  to  belong  to  organizations  of  one's  own  choosing, 
freedom  to  speak  one's  own  mind,  read  books,  magazines,  newspapers, 
and  so  forth,  the  right  to  peaceful  assembly  to  petition  the  Govern- 
ment for  a  redress  of  grievances. 

This  committee  is  inquiring  into  a  field  where  it  has  no  right  to 
legislate. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Excuse  me. 

Mr.  Black.  That  is  an  area  of  opinions,  ideas,  and  the  like. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Are  you  reading  from  a  prepared  statement,  sir? 

Mr.  Black.  It  is  just  a  few  notes  I  have. 

Mr.  Jackson.  A  few  notes.  Would  you  furnish  them  to  the  com- 
mittee at  the  conclusion  of  your  testimony,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Black.  Certainly. 

Mr.  Jackson.  And  if  it  develops  to  be  a  prepared  statement,  the 
committee  will  take  it  under  its  advisement  as  to  the  inclusion  into 
the  record  in  accordance  with  the  rules  of  the  committee. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  refuse  to  answer  this  question  on  the  grounds 
of  the  fifth  amendment?  You  are  going  to  get  to  the  fifth  amend- 
ment eventually,  so  would  you  mention  it  if  you  desire  to  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Black  conferred  with  Mr.  Miller.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  question  is.  Where  are  you  employed? 

Mr.  Black.  I  am  refusing,  and  I  insist  on  being  able  to  give  all  my 
reasons  for  doing  so.  (Voluntary  statement  made  by  the  witness  was 
ordered  stricken  from  the  record  by  the  chairman.)  Therefore  I 
invoke  the  fiftli  amendment  and  any  other  provisions  of  the  Consti- 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3381 

tution  that  will  protect  me  and  other  American  people  from 
inquisitions. 

Mr,  Jackson.  Is  that  the  end  of  your  statement,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Black.  Yes. 

Mr.  Jackson.  May  I  have  a  copy  of  your  statement  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Black  conferred  with  Mr.  Miller.) 

Mr.  Jackson.  Will  the  reporter  please  read  back  the  statement 
made  by  the  witness  ? 

(Whereupon  the  reporter  read  the  statement.) 

Mr.  Jackson.  That  is  sufficient. 

This  is  quite  obviously  a  prepared  statement,  prepared  in  advance 
of  the  hearings  and  read  in  violation  of  the  rules  of  the  committee. 
Rule  9  of  the  committee  states : 

Any  witness  desiring  to  make  a  prepared  or  written  statement  for  the  record 
of  proceedings  in  executive  or  public  session  shall  file  a  copy  of  such  statement 
for  the  counsel  of  the  committee  within  a  reasonable  period  of  time  in  advance 
of  the  hearing  at  which  the  statement  is  to  be  presented.  All  such  statements 
so  received  which  are  relevant  and  germane  to  the  subject  of  the  investigation 
may,  upon  approval  at  the  conclusion  of  the  testimony  of  the  witness,  by  a 
majority  vote  of  the  committee  or  subcommittee  members  present,  be  inserted 
in  the  official  transcript  of  the  proceedings.  Footnote:  Statements  which  take 
the  form  of  personal  attacks  by  the  witness  upon  the  motives  of  the  committee, 
the  personal  character  of  any  Members  of  the  Congress  or  of  the  committee  staff 
in  statements  clearly  in  the  nature  of  accusation  are  not  deemed  to  be  relevant 
nor  germane. 

In  light  of  that  and  in  light  of  the  fact  that  this  is  quite  obviously 
a  prepared  statement,  it  will  be  received  and  considered  for  inclusion 
in  the  record.    In  the  interim  it  will  be  stricken  from  the  record. 

Mr.  Miller,  May  the  record  show  what  Congressmen  and  how 
many  are  present  in  the  room  at  the  present  time  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes,  The  full  subcommittee  of  two  appointed  by  the 
chairman  before  his  departure  is  present,  a  subcommittee  consisting  of 
Congressman  Doyle,  Congressman  Jackson,  a  duly  constituted  sub- 
committee of  the  House  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  under 
the  rules  of  the  House  of  Representatives. 

Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel, 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Black,  are  you  a  printer  for  the  Oakland  Tribune  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Black  conferred  with  Mr.  Miller.) 

Mr,  Black.  I  think  I  have  already  answered  that  question,  and  if 
not,  I  want  to  make  it  clear  that  I  am  standing  again  on  the  same 
reason  I  gave, 

Mr,  Jackson.  I  think  at  this  point  I  should  point  out  to  counsel 
that  in  answer  to  the  first  question,  which  was  dealt  with  by  this 
statement,  that  the  last  part  of  it  dealt  with  the  inclusion  of  the  fifth 
amendment.  I  call  that  to  counsel's  attention  for  the  protection  of  the 
witness  because  in  striking  this,  if  it  is  not  included  by  the  committee 
action,  it  will  have  the  effect  of  leaving  no  refusal  on  the  first  question 
answered. 

Mr.  Miller.  I  take  it  in  striking  the  answer  then  you  strike  the 
question, 

Mr.  Jackson,  I  think  perhaps  you  had  better  repeat  the  questions 
in  order  that  the  declinations  may  be  entered  in  the  record, 

Mr.  KuNziG,  I  will  repeat  the  question.  The  first  question  was,  are 
you  presently  employed  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Black  conferred  with  Mr.  Miller.) 


3382       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Black.  I  thought  I  had  answered  the  question,  but  if  not,  I 
refuse  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the  first  and  fifth  amendments. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  the  next  question,  and  that  is,  are  you  employed 
as  a  printer  for  the  Oakland  Tribune? 

Mr.  Black.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  May  I  ask,  do  you  feel  that  employment  by  the  Oak- 
land Tribune  incriminates  you  ?  It  is  difficult  to  see  how  employment 
by  the  Tribune  would  incriminate  anyone. 

Mr.  Black.  I  don't  think  that  my  feelings  are  pertinent  to  the  in- 
quiry of  this  committee. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  But  you  refuse  to  answer  as  to  whether  you  are  em- 
ployed by  the  Oakland  Tribune  because  to  do  so  might  tend  to  incrimi- 
nate you,  is  that  right  ? 

Mr.  Black.  I  refuse  to  answer  that  question  or  any  question  re- 
garding my  employment,  people  whom  I  associate  with  or  anything 
else  under  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  I  have  here,  INIr.  Chairman,  the  testimony  taken  in  ex- 
ecutive session  before  the  House  Committee  on  Un-American  Activi- 
ties, testimony  of  Bertha  Grover,  G-r-o-v-e-r,  who  under  oath  testified 
that  she  had  worked  as  an  undercover  agent  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of 
Investigation. 

That  was  in  the  Communist  Party,  of  course. 

When  asked  the  following  question,  her  answer  was  given  in  this 
fashion : 

Question.  Will  you  identify  for  the  committee  people  with  whom  you  met  as 
members  of  the  Communist  Party  during  your  membership  in  the  southwest 
Berkeley  group? 

Answer.  Robert  Black,  Gladys  Black ;  southwest  Berkeley,  Willie  Laughery, 
Ozzo,  0-z-z-o,  Marrow.  ]M-ar-r-o-w,  Ray  Thompson,  Ray  Halpern,  H-a-1-p-e-r-n, 
Calvin  Batiste,  B-a-t-i-s-te,  Marie  Calloway,  C-a-1-l-o-w-a-y,  Warner  Calloway, 
Fred  Williams,  Herb  and  Bernice  Kalmau, 

Then  she  goes  on  and  says, 

No,  Teresa,  not  Bernice.  Andrew  Mays,  M-a-y-s,  Freddie  Walker,  Frank  Parsons, 
Katrina  and  Jack  Mauley.  They  were  in  that  club,  but  I  can't  remember  the 
person 

Then  as  to  the  present  witness,  Robert  Black,  with  regard  to  mem- 
bership in  the  Southwest  Berkeley  Club  of  the  Communist  Party. 

I  ask  you :  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Southwest  Berke- 
ley Club  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Black.  I  have  already  stated  I  will  not  answer  any  questions 
regarding  any  associations  1  have  had  in  the  past  or  present,  and  I 
am  invoking  the  first  and  fifth  amendments  again. 

Mr.  Jackson.  And  decline  to  answer  the  question? 

Mr.  Black.  And  certainly  decline  to  answer  the  question. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  witness,  Bertha  Grover,  then  was  asked  further 
questions,  and  she  answered — 

I  was  transferred  to  the  Whitney  Club,  the  Anita  Whitney  Clnb. 

Question.  Durins  your  membership  in  the  Anita  Whitney  Club  will  you  identify 
those  persons  with  whom  you  met  as  members  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Answer.  Robert  Black,  Gladys  Black,  Roger  Capelle,  C-a-p-e-1-l-e,  Frances  Ca- 
pelle.  Carl  Hanson,  Bernice  Kalman,  K-a-1-m-a-n,  Eugene  Kalman,  Herb  Kalman, 
Ted  Kalman,  Jim  McFadden,  Edith  Sharpe,  Leila  Thompson,  Gertrude  Warwick, 
W-a-r-w-i-c-k,  Dick  Younce,  Y-o-u-n-c-e,  Nat  Vanish,  Ann  Yanish,  Ruth  McGovney 
May  of  the  southwest  Berkeley  group,  Eleanor  Smith,  Joe  Eisler,  E-i-s-1-e-r, 
Marge  Eisler,  Elizabeth  Barlow,  B-a-r-1-o-w,  Edward  Barlow,  Gertrude  Warwick, 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3383 

Hazel  Peters,  Dave  Blodgett,  Charlie  Busk,  B-u-s-k.     Hazel  Peters  is  the  one 
who  was  out  getting  subscriptions  for  the  National  Guardian. 

I  now  ask  you,  based  upon  this  sworn  testimony  by  an  undercover 
agent  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation,  have  you  ever  been  a 
member  of  the  Anita  Whitney  Chib  of  the  Communist  Party  ?  The 
committee  will,  of  course,  recall  that  Charles  Blodgett  testified  yes- 
terday  

(At  this  point  Mr.  Black  conferred  with  Mr.  Miller.) 

Mr.  KuNziG  (continuing).  That  this  witness  was  a  member  of  the 
Anita  Whitney  Club. 

Mr.  Black.  I  have  already  given  the  reasons  to  refuse  to  answer 
that  question.    I  stand  on  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  two  more  questions.  Have  you  ever  been  a 
member  of  the  Communist  Party,  any  group  whatsoever,  at  any  time? 

Mr.  Black.  I  refuse  to  answer  for  the  same  reasons. 

Mr,  KuNziG.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Black.  Same  reasons ;  same  answer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  No  questions. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Is  there  any  reason  why  the  witness  should  not  be 
excused  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Jackson.  The  witness  is  excused. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Bernice  Kalman. 

Is  Bernice  Kalman  in  the  room?  If  so,  would  she  please  come 
forward  ? 

Miss  Kalman.  Before  being  sworn,  I  would  like  to  tell  you  that 
my  attorney  is  not  here  at  present.  He  was  unable  to  come  this  morn- 
ing, and  he  must  have  misunderstood  the  directions.  He  is  not  here, 
and  I  would  like  to  be  represented  by  counsel. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well.  Under  the  circumstances  I  think  this 
should  beset  over  until  eitlier  this  afternoon  or  tomorrow. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Can  you  be  back  this  afternoon.  Miss  Kalman  ? 

Miss  Kalman.  Yes ;  I  will. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Postpone  this  for  the  moment  because  counsel  is  not 
present.    Will  your  counsel  be  able  to  be  present  this  afternoon  ? 

Miss  Kalman.  I  think  he  will. 
,    Mr.  Jackson.  Will  you  make  an  effort  to  get  in  touch  with  him? 

Miss  Kalman,  I  will  try. 
)    Mr.  Jackson,  Thank  you.     Call  your  next  witness,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Marjorie  Canright. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Will  an  officer  check  in  the  hallway  to  see  if  the  wit- 
ness is  here  ? 

Mrs.  KoBERsoN.  The  witness  has  asked  me  to  inform  the  committee 
that  her  attorney,  Mr.  Brodsky,  expected  her  to  be  called  this 
afternoon. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Would  you  kindly  identify  yourself  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  I  am  Doris  Brin  Walker,  attorney  at  law. 

Mr.  Jackson.  And  her  lawyer? 


3384       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  Her  lawyer  is  Mr.  Brodsky,  and  I  believe  that  he 
was  informed  by  Mr.  Tavenner  or  this  gentleman  that  Mrs.  Canright 
would  be  called  this  afternoon. 

Mr,  Jackson.  I  see. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  We  will  gladly  put  it  off  until  this  afternoon  if  counsel 
cannot  be  present. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Will  you  please  be  back  at  2  o'clock  this  afternoon. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Doris  Walker  Roberson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Do  you  solemnly  swear  in  the  testimony  you  are  about 
to  give  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so 
help  you  God  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  DORIS  ERIN  WALKER  ROBERSON,  ACCOMPANIED 
BY  HER  COUNSEL,  GEORGE  OLSHAUSEN 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  state  your  name,  please  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  The  name  under  which  I  practice  law  is  Doris  Brin 
Walker.  I  was  widowed  in  1951  and  remarried  last  year.  As  a  result 
of  that  marriage  my  married  name  is  now  Roberson,  D-o-r-i-s  B-r-i-n 
W-a-1-k-e-r  R-o-b-e-r-s-o-n. 

May  I  inquire  your  name  again,  please,  counsel?  I  didn't  get  it 
the  fii^st  time. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  My  name  is  Robert  L.  Kunzig,  K-u-n-z-i-g,  counsel 
for  the  committee,  member  of  the  bar  of  Philadelphia  County,  Pa. 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Kunzig. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  All  right.  Now,  Mrs.  Roberson,  would  you  please  state 
your  address  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  1268  Clayton  Street,  San  Francisco. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  And  you  are  a  member  of  the  bar  of  San  Francisco 
County  ?  1 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Yes,  I  am. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  When  were  you  born,  Mrs.  Roberson  ? 

Mrs.  Roberson,  I  was  born  in  Dallas,  Tex.,  on  April  20,  1919. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  There  was  testimony  under  oath  before  this  committee 
by  Mr.  Hill  the  other  day  that  he  knew  you  as  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party. 

Mi's.  Roberson.  May  I  delay  my  answer  until  this  photographer 
finishes  ?     I  can't  see,  to  tell  you  the  truth,  because  of  the  flashbulbs. 

Mr.  Kunzig,  may  I  point  out  that  I  have  been  rather  more  fortunate 
than  Mr.  Treuhaf t.  After  asking  four  lawyers  to  represent  me,  1  was 
fortunate  enough  to  obtain  extremely  competent  counsel,  and  I  would 
like  my  counsel  to  be  on  the  record. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes,  would  counsel  please  identify  himself  ? 

Mr.  Olshausen.  George  Olshausen,  0-1-s-h-a-u-s-e-n. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  And  your  office  address  ? 

Mr.  Olshausen.  I  have  no  office. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Of  what  county  are  you  a  member  of  the  bar? 

Mr.  Olshausen.  San  Francisco. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party,  is  the  ques- 
tion, 

Mrs,  Roberson,  Which  is  the  question,  Mr.  Kunzig? 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3385 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  will  ask  you :  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the 
Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  You  know,  it  is  very  interesting,  Mr.  Kunzig.  I 
was  present  during  Mr.  Hill's  testimony  and  listened  with  great 
interest.  I  wonder  if  you  noticed  that  he  identified  my  name  or  a 
portion  of  my  name,  Doris  Walker  Roberson,  as  some  person  he 
knew  during  the  period  he  said  he  was  in  the  Communist  Party; 
that  is,  the  period  1945-49.  As  I  just  got  through  informing  the 
committee,  my  name  did  not  become  Roberson  until  1952. 

Mr.  Jackson.  That  is  hardly  responsive  to  the  question.  There  is 
a  question  pending. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  see  no  real  reason  why  I  should  match  my  ver- 
acity against  a  witness  who  claims  he  knew  me  under  a  name  that  I 
didn't  have  for  a  period  of  some  3  to  7  years  before  I  had  it. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well.  All  that  is  necessary  is  for  you  to  state 
that  the  identification  is  false. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  don't  intend  to  match  my  veracity  with  a  witness 
of  the  caliber  of  Dickson  Hill,  a  man  who  not  only  testified  he  knew 
me  under  a  name  I  didn't  have,  but  who  had  to  be  led  through  practi- 
cally all  of  the  testimony  that  he  did  give. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Then  I  will  just 

Mrs.  Roberson.  A  practice  frowned  on  by  the  courts,  incidentally. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  will  ask  you  a  very  simple  question  once  again  which 
obviously  you  will  probably  not  answer.  Have  you  ever  been  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  jNIr.  Kunzig,  and  members  of  the  committee,  in 
view  of  the  announced  purpose  of  this  committee  and  in  view  of  the 
kind  of  testimony  that  we  have  had  here  the  last  few  days,  particu- 
larly yesterday,  I  wouldn't  tell  this  committee  if  I  was  a  member  of 
the  Republican  or  Democratic  Parties. 

Mr.  Jackson.  The  committee  is  not  asking  you  about  your  political 
affiliation.  We  are  asking  you  whether  or  not  you  were  ever  a  member 
of  an  international  conspiracy  which  seeks  the  destruction  of  this 
country.  It  is  quite  a  different  thing,  and  I  wish  you  would  answer. 
Do  you  decline  to  answer  the  question  now  pending? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Oh,  yes,  I  do — Mr.  Jackson,  it  is  ?  Yes,  I  definitely 
do,  Mr.  Jackson. 

;NIr,  Jackson.  And  upon  what  grounds  ? 

]Mrs.  Roberson.  Well,  I  have  a  number  of  grounds. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Are  you  an  attorney,  Mr.  Jackson? 

Mr.  Jackson.  No,  I  am  not. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Well,  Mr.  Kunzig,  as  an  attorney,  will  recognize 
the  importance  of  stating  all  of  the  legal  grounds  for  a  position. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes,  they  are  important.     Let  us  get  to  them. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  will ;  I  will  state  my  legal  grounds. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Would  you,  just  for  the  sake  of  variety,  state  the 
fifth  amendment  first  instead  of  last  ? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  think  I  will  state  them  in  the  order  in  which  I 
have  prepared  myself  to  state  them.  Of  course,  I  knew  that  tliis 
question  would  be  asked. 

Mr,  Kunzig.  Oh,  you  did? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  prepared  myself  in  somewhat  the  same  manner 
that  a  lawyer  prepares  himself  for  a  legal  argument. 


3386       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well.  Mr.  Counsel,  let  the  witness  proceed  to 
give  lier  answer. 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  First  of  all,  article  I  of  the  Constitution  assigns 
to  the  Congress  tlie  legislative  function  of  government.  As  you  know, 
article  II  assigns  the  executive  function  to  the  executive  branch  of 
government;  and  article  III  assigns  the  judicial  function  to  the 
judiciary. 

Under  article  I  the  Congress  and  committees  like  this  one  are  lim- 
ited to  legislative  functions.  This  committee  has  already  announced 
that  its  function  is  not  legislative,  when,  in  the  statement  that  a 
spokesman  for  the  committee  made  to  the  San  Francisco  Examiner 
on  November  2,  the  committee  stated  that  its  purpose  was  to  identify 
and  in  effect  isolate  or,  I  believe  the  phrase  was,  leave  high  and  dry 
the  hundred  top  Communists  in  this  area. 

I  gather  from  tliis  that  the  purpose  of  the  committee  is  to  dictate 
to  the  people  of  the  Bay  area  with  whom  to  associate  and  whom  to 
ostracize,  and  this  is  not 

Mr.  Jackson,  ilgain  your  assumptions  are  not  legal  reasons. 

Mrs,  RoBERsoN.  This  is  not  a  legislative  function,  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  One  does  not  have  to  be  an  attorney  to  know  that  the 
reasons  you  are  giving  are  not  legal  reasons.  They  are  opinions  of 
your  own ;  they  are  assumptions  that  you  have  made. 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  That  isn't  true,  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Will  you  proceed. 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  I  heard  Mr.  Kunzig  ask  Mr.  Black,  I  believe  it 
was — one  of  the  earlier  witnesses  a  moment  or  so  ago — what  his  occu- 
pation was,  and  when  Mr.  Black  refused  to  answer,  invoking  the  fifth 
amendment  as  he  had  a  legal  right  to  do,  Mr.  Kunzig  then  asked  him 
if  it  wasn't  true  that  he  was  a  printer  employed  by  the  Oakland 
Tribune. 

Now,  if  that  isn't  an  attempt  to  isolate  and  to  do  harm  and  grave 
personal  injury  to  people  in  this  area,  I  never  heard  one  in  my  life, 
and  that  is  not  a  legislative  function,  and  it  is  one  of  the  legal  grounds 
for  my  refusing  to  answer  this  question. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well,  you  are 

Mrs.  RoBERSoN.  I  have  other  legal  grounds. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well ;  if  you  will  state  your  legal  grounds  for 
answering  and  not  your  assumptions 

Mrs.  RoBERSoN.  i  intend  to  do  so.  The  first  ground  was  legal,  and 
it  was  certainly  not  an  assumption. 

It  is  clear  to  me  in  this  regard,  by  the  way,  that  your  purpose  in 
bringing  me  here  is  certainly  not  to  further  any  proposed  legislation 
that  may  or  may  not  come  from  this  committee ;  I  believe  the  record 
will  show  that  this  committee  has  proposed  no  legislation  which  has 
been  adopted,  but  rather 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  Mr.  Chairman,  just  a  minute.  Let  us  get  some  facts 
before  this  committee.  There  is  a  law  of  1950,  the  present  law  of  this 
land,  the  Internal  Security  Act  of  1950,  which  was  based  upon  years 
of  study  in  this  committee. 

Mr.  Jackson.  The  Smith  Act,  of  which  the  Communists  are  so  fond, 
came  in  large  part  out  of  the  legislative  recommendations  of  this  com- 
mittee, so  if  your  other  assumptions  are  as  ill-founded  as  your  last 
statement,  it  would  be  very  helpful  if  you  would  proceed  to  those 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3387 

things  on  "wliich  there  is  no  question,  such  as  your  constitutional 
j3rivileges. 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  I  understood  the  Smith  Act  was  passed  in  1940, 
but 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  is  correct. 

Mrs.  EoBERsoN.  I  would  like  to  raise  another  objection. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No,  we  are  not  interested  in  your  objections.  We 
are  interested  in  obtaining  from  you  the  legal  reasons 

Mrs.  KoBERSON.  I  misstated  myself,  Mr.  Jackson.  I  forgot  my- 
self. The  atmosphere  is  just  enough  like  that  of  a  court  so  that  I 
used  the  word  "objection"  when  I  intended  to  state  another  legal 
reason,  and  I  beg  the  committee's  pardon. 

(At  this  point  Mrs.  Roberson  conferred  with  Mr.  Olshausen.) 

Mr.  Jackson.  Will  you  state  one  legal  reason  for  your  refusal  to 
answer  ? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  will  state  one  right  now  I  had  not  noticed.  My 
counsel  just  called  to  my  attention  that  there  is  not  a  quorum  of  this 
committee  present. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Let  it  be  put  in  the  record  again,  Mr.  Velde,  upon 
his  departure  from  this  room,  and  in  accordance  with  the  rules  of 
the  House  of  Representatives,  designated  a  subcommittee  of  two,  con- 
sisting of  Mr.  Doyle  and  myself,  to  conduct  the  hearings  this  morn- 
ing. It  is  a  perfectly  legal  subcommittee  and  has  been  so  held  in 
many  court  actions.  The  subcommittee  was  designated  as  a  sub- 
committee of  two,  I  wish  you  would  get  to  the  gist  of  your  objections, 
if  it  is  not  asking  too  much. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  May  my  exception  to  your  ruling  be  noted  for 
the  record  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes,  your  exception  is  noted. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Thank  you. 

Not  only  has  this  committee  by  its  own  statements  and  actions 
showed  that  it  is  not  acting  here  in  pursuit  of  any  legislative  pur- 
pose, but  the  committee  is  actually  arrogating  unto  itself  a  func- 
tion which  has  not  been  granted  to  the  Federal  Government  at  all. 
Rather,  it  is  acting  in  a  field  which  is  reserved  to  the  people  of  the 
United  States  under  the  ninth  and  tenth  amendments. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  don't  believe  we  are  here  to  have 
legal  lectures  from  this  lawyer.  I  respectfully  request  that  she  answer 
tlie  question.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 
That  is  the  question. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Let  us  strike  from  the  record  anj'^  reference  to  the 
witness'  ability  in  tlie  legal  field. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  think  in  the  exercise  of  this  precious  thing  called 
freedom  of  speech  that  we  had  better  let  the  witness  continue  and  ask 
her  indulgence  to  the  extent  of  finishing  as  quickly  as  possible. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  certainly  intend  to  do  so.  If  I  had  fewer  inter- 
ruptions, I  would  be  through  much  quicker. 

As  I  was  saying,  this  committee  is  attempting  to  investigate  or  take 
action  in  a  field  which  is  forbidden  to  it  and  to  every  branch  of  the 
Federal  Government  by  the  ninth  and  tenth  amendments.  There  is 
no  section  of  the  Constitution  which  delegates  to  the  Federal  Govern- 


3388       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

ment  the  right  to  investigate  or  dictate  the  thought,  speech,  political 
opinion,  or  conscience  of  the  people. 

Incidentally — and  I  think  I  may  quote  President  Eisenhower,  per- 
haps, without  fear  of  guilt  by  association,  although  I  read  in  the  press 
that  he  was  once  in  a  meeting  with  Harry  Dexter  White — President 
Eisenhower  was  quoted  on  this  point  in  the  San  Francisco  Chronicle 
on  November  24.  He  said  that  the  code  by  which  Americans  live 
includes  the  right  to  "speak  your  mind  and  be  protected  in  it." 

This  is  the  right  which  is  guaranteed  by  the  first  amendment,  and 
it  is  not  any  function  of  government  to  interfere  with  that  right. 

Moreover,  the  committee  cannot  justify  its  record  by  claiming  that 
it  is  investigating  crime.  The  Constitution  assigns  that  function,  the 
function  of  investigating  crime,  to  the  executive  branch  of  the  Gov- 
ernment, and  although  it  is  an  incidental  result  of  the  actions  of  this 
committee  that  people  get  punished,  the  committee  cannot  justify  its 
actions  by  claiming  that  it  is  punishing  crime,  since  the  Constitution 
assigns  that  function  to  the  judicial  branch  of  government. 

Moreover,  persons  accused  of  crime  are  guaranteed  certain  rights 
by  the  sixth  amendment,  which  this  committee  denies  me  and  other 
witnesses  subpenaed  before  it.  On  this  point  let  me  say,  so  there  may 
be  no  misunderstanding,  I  have  committed  no  crimes.  I  have  never 
been  charged  with  committing  a  crime.  I  never  plan  to  be.  But 
innocent  persons  before  now  have  been  convicted,  imprisoned,  even 
executed,  and  therefore  my  protection  does  not  lie  alone  in  my  in- 
nocence of  any  crime. 

A  few  hundred  years  ago  physical  torture  was  used  to  force  a  con- 
fession from  one  accused,  regardless  of  his  guilt  or  innocence,  and  it 
was  to  protect  the  innocent  that  the  law  came  to  forbid  any  form  of 
compulsion  to  force  a  witness  to  testify  against  himself.  This  prin- 
ciple, embodied  in  the  fifth  amendment,  is  a  part  of  the  Bill  of  Rights, 
and  it  is  because  I  am  innocent  of  any  crime  that  I  rely,  in  addition  to 
the  other  crouncls  stated,  upon  the  provision  of  the  Constitution  which 
is  specifically  designed  to  protect  the  innocent.  In  this  connection  I 
call  the  committee's  attention  to  the  opinion  of  the  United  States 
Supreme  Court  in  Twirling  v.  Neio  Jersey.  You  may  want  to  take  this 
citation  down,  Mr.  Jackson,  because  in  sitting  here  the  last  few  days 
I  have  heard  you  state  time  and  time  again  where  the  witness  is  rely- 
ing on  the  fifth  amendment  that  you  were  left  only  with  the  assump- 
tion that  they  must  be  guilty  of  some  crime  or  some  subversive  activity 
because  they  so  relied  on  the  fifth  amendment. 

That  is  not  the  law,  Mr.  Jackson.  The  citation  is  211  United  States 
Reporter  at  page  78.  The  Supreme  Court  said  in  that  case  that  this 
portion  of  the  fifth  amendment  was  regarded  at  the  time  our  Nation 
was  founded  as  it  is  now,  and  here  I  quote — 

as  a  privilege  of  great  value,  a  protection  for  the  innocent,  though  a  shield  for 
the  guilty,  and  a  safeguard  against  the  heedless,  unfounded,  or  tyrannical 
prosecutions. 

Incidentally,  the  Court  of  Appeals  for  the  Ninth  Circuit,  that  is  the 
circuit  which  includes  California,  has  held  likewise  in  the  case  of 
United  States  v.  Spector — I  don't  have  the  citation  handy,  but  I 
would  be  glad  to  make  it  available  to  counsel  or  to  you,  Mr.  Jackson. 

For  all  of  the  reasons  stated  I  will  not  be  a  party  to  McCarthyism, 
what  Mr.  Truman  has  described  as  McCarthyism  in  referring  to  the 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3389 

actions  of  this  committee  when  he  also  stood  upon  the  Constitution  and 
refused  to  respond  to  a  subpena  from  this  committee. 

He  said  at  that  time  that 

Mr.  Jackson.  May  I  say  to  the  witness  that  the  Chair  has  been 
very  lenient  in  listening  to  a  dissertation  which  the  committee  has 
heard  in  one  form  or  another  on  a  thousand  occasions.  The  witness 
assured  the  Chair  that  she  would  be  brief. 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  Mr.  Jackson,  it  was  not  my  choice  that  you  take 
this  road  show  on  the  road.  I  am  sorry  you  have  had  to  listen  to  this 
explanation  so  many  times,  but  it  happens  to  be  the  law. 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  am  sorry  I  had  to  listen  to  it,  too,  but  I  have  no 
choice.  I  am  a  captive  audience  of  yours,  and  I  can't  do  very  much 
about  it. 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  I  did  not  invite  you  to  San  Francisco,  nor  did  I 
invite  you  to  serve  me  with  a  subpena. 

Mr.  Jackson.  No;  but  the  duty  imposed  upon  us  by  the  Congress 
of  the  United  States  forces  us  to  listen  to  it,  and  I  can  think  of  many 
more  pleasant  things  to  do. 

Mrs.  RoBERSoN.  I  am  sure  this  committee  could  decide  to  fold  the 
show  up. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Are  you  standing  upon  the  fifth  amendment  of  the 
Constitution  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  I  am  standing  upon  the  legal  argument  which  I 
just  made,  slightly  interrupted. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Have  you  completed  your  argument? 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  If  you  will  give  me  a  moment  to  look  in  my  notes, 
I  will  tell  you. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well. 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  For  the  moment  I  have  completed  my  argument, 
thank  you,  Mr.  Jackson. 

Mr.  Jackson.  You  are  quite  welcome;  and  your  reasons  have  all 
been  stated  in  your  argument? 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  I  believe  they  have  been. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well.    Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  ever  use  the  name  "Dobie"  as  a  first  name,  I 
presume,  nickname? 

Mrs.  RoBERSoN.  What  is  the  relevance  of  that  question  and  the 
purposes  of  this  committee? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Just  answer  the  question. 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  I  think  I  have  a  right  to  inquire  as  to  the  relevance. 

Mr.  Jackson.  The  committee  will  decide  as  to  the  relevance  of  it. 
Will  the  witness  kindly  answer  the  question  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  Well,  if  the  question  is  not  relevant,  I  don't  see 
why  I  should  answer  it,  and  if  it  is  relevant,  in  view  of  everything  I 
have  said,  I  certainly  am  not  going  to  answer  it. 

Mr.  Jackson.  May  I  ask  counsel,  is  this  a  matter  of  identification? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes.  The  witness  yesterday  stated  that  he  knew  her 
under  the  name  of  "Dobie." 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  ever  use  the  name  "Dobie"  as  a  nickname,  any 
name  or  appellation  attached  to  you  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  You  are  asking  me  this  question,  Mr.  Kunzig,  be- 
cause the  witness  Dickson  Hill  said  that  he  had  known  me  under  that 
name;  is  that  correct? 


3390       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Just  answer  the  question,  please.  We  are  asking ;  you 
answer. 

Mrs.  RoBERSoN.  Well,  I  must  decline  to  answer  the  question.  I 
can't  see  that  the  answer  to  this  question  will  forward  the  purpose  of 
this  committee,  if  it  is  a  lefjislative  purpose,  and  if  it  isn't  a  legis- 
lative purpose,  it  is  forbidden  to  this  committee  by  article  I  of  the 
Constitution. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Do  you  so  decline? 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  I  do  so  decline. 

Mr.  Jackson.  For  the  reasons  previously  stated? 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  Oh,  yes,  yes. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Very  well,  so  that  will  be  clear  on  the  record.  Go 
ahead,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  an  organizer  for  the  Communist 
Party  among  the  cannery  workers? 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  Mr.  Kunzig,  it  was  Mr.  Jackson  who  wanted  to 
go  to  lunch  at  12  o'clock,  and  I  am  perfectly  ready  to  go  now.  Aren't 
you  just  wasting .: 

Mr.  Jackson.  I  will  postpone  it.    Answer  the  question. 

Mrs.  RoBERsoN.  It  is  obviously  a  waste  of  time.  I  can't  understand 
why  you  pursue  this  line  of  inquiry.     I  can  repeat 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  think  you  understand  very  well. 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  I  can  repeat  my  legal  argument  if  you  wish  me 
to  do  so. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  You  are  refusing  to  answer  on  the  grounds  of  the 
fifth  amendment  because  you  might  incriminate  yourself,  is  that  the 
answer  ? 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  I  refuse  to  answer  on  all  the  grounds  I  stated;  that 
includes  articles  I  and  II  of  the  Constitution  and  amendments  1,  5, 
6,  9,  and  10. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  would  like  to  ask  if  you  ever  took  an  oath  upon  be- 
coming a  member  of  the  bar. 

Mrs.  Robertson.  I  believe  that  I  did. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  when  you 
took  that  oath? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Well,  I  am  getting  hungry  if  you  are  not,  Mr. 
Kunzig.    Really,  although,  as  I  say 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Do  you  refuse  to  answer  that  question  ? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  would  like  to  make  my  argument  again.  It 
might  be  clearer  that  you  are  just  wasting  your  time  and  mine  and 
the  committee's  and  everyone  else's. 

Mr.  Jackson.  We  can  save  it  if  you  will  simply  decline  to  answer. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Obviously  I  decline  to  answer.  Why  go  through 
this  farce? 

Mr.  Jackson.  For  all  the  reasons  previously  stated  ? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  For  all  the  reasons  previously  stated. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  bar  at  the  time  you  acted 
as  an  organizer  for  the  cannery  workers  for  the  Communist  Party, 
if  you  did  so  act  ? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Tliat  is  one  of  these  compound  questions  that  Mr. 
Speiser  of  the  American  Civil  Liberties  Union  has  been  objecting  to. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3391 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  He  is  not  representing  you.  Just  answer  for  your- 
self. 

Mrs.  RoBERSON.  I  think  his  point  was  very  well  taken.  Do  you  mind 
breaking  the  question  down? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  bar  when  you  acted  as 
organizer  for  the  Communist  Party  in  the  cannery  workers  group? 

(At  this  point  Mrs.  Roberson  conferred  with  Mr.  Olshausen.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  If  you  so  acted  ? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  What  was  that  last  aside,  Mr.  Kunzig?  I  didn't 
hear  it. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  If  you  so  acted,  Mrs.  Roberson. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  It  is  now  in  three  parts. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  You  were  asked  the  question  as  to  whether  you  were 
an  organizer  of  the  Communist  Party  in  the  cannery  workers,  and  you 
saw  fit  to  refuse  to  answer  that  one,  you  see.  Now  I  am  asking  you 
whether  you  were  a  member  of  the  party  at  the  time  that  you  acted 
as  an  organizer. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Since  I  declined  to  answer,  Mr.  Kunzig,  it  must  be 
apparent  to  you  as  a  Philadelphia  lawyer  that  you  are  assuming  facts 
not  in  evidence.    How  can  I  answer  such  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Mr.  Counsel,  I  would  like  to  ask  one  question.  Are 
you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mrs,  Roberson.  Shall  I  go  through  my  argument  again  ? 

Mr.  Jackson.  Spare  us  the  speech.  I  would  just  like  to  have  a 
declination  or  an  answer. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Mr.  Jackson,  as  I  told  you  at  the  beginning  of  this 
little 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes,  I  remember  that.  I  remember  all  you  told  the 
committee.     Will  you  please  answer  the  question? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  would  not  state  to  this  committee  whether  or  not 
I  was  a  member  of  the  Republican  or  Democratic  Parties  in  view  of 
the  kind  of  testimony  which  has  been  given  this  committee  in  the  last 
few  days. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Do  you  decline  to  answer  the  question? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Particularly  I  wouldn't  tell  if  I  were  a  member  of 
the  Democratic  Party. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Will  you  please  answer  the  question  pending? 

Mrs.  Roberson.  I  decline  to  answer  the  question,  as  you  knew  that 
I  would. 

Mr.  Jackson.  Yes;  I  was  quite  confident  you  would. 

Mrs.  Roberson.  Why  put  the  question  ? 

Mr,  Jackson.  Is  there  any  further  reason  why  the  witness  should 
not  be  excused  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig,  No ;  there  is  nothing  further. 

Mr.  Jackson.  The  witness  is  excused. 

The  committe  will  stand  in  recess  until  2  o'clock  this  afternoon. 

( Wliereupon,  at  12 :  20  p.  m.,  the  hearing  was  recessed,  to  reconvene 
at  2  p.  m.  of  the  same  day.) 

AFTERNOON    SESSION 

(At  the  hour  of  2:  05  p.  m,  of  the  same  day,  the  hearing  was  re- 
sumed, the  following  committee  members  being  present :  Representa- 
tives Harold  H.  Velde  (chairman),  Donald  L.  Jackson,  Gordon  H. 
Scherer,  and  Clyde  Doyle.) 


3392       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Velde.  The  committee  will  be  in  order,  please. 

Let  the  record  show  that  I  have  set  up  a  subcommittee  consisting  of 
Mr.  Jackson,  Mr.  Scherer,  Mr.  Doyle,  and  myself  as  the  chairman  for 
the  purposes  of  the  continued  hearings. 

Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  should  like  first  to  state  for  the 
record,  because  it  is  important  that  the  record  at  all  times  here  be 
correct,  the  purpose  of  this  committee  and  the  law,  Public  Law  601 
of  the  79tli  Congress,  passed  by  that  Congress  and  signed  by  the  then 
President  of  the  United  States,  which  gives  this  committee  not  only 
a  power,  but  an  absolute  duty,  and  every  Congressman  appointed  to 
this  committee,  to  carry  out  that  law. 

There  has  been  a  gi*eat  deal  of  quoted  law  here  this  morning,  and 
we  want  to  be  sure  that  the  record  stands  corrected,  not  as  quoted  at 
the  present  moment. 

Public  Law  601  gives  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities 
the  following  duty : 

Authorized  to  make  from  time  to  time  investigations  of  (1)  the  extent,  charac- 
ter, and  objects  of  un-American  propaganda  activities  in  the  United  States;  (2) 
the  diffusion  v^dthin  the  United  States  of  subversive  and  un-American  propa- 
ganda that  is  instigated  from  foreign  countries  or  of  a  domestic  origin  and 
attacks  the  principle  of  the  form  of  government  as  guaranteed  by  our  Consti- 
tution;  and  (3)  all  other  questions  in  relation  tliereto  that  would  aid  Congress 
in  any  necessary  remedial  legislation. 

This  committee  is  in  San  Francisco,  Calif.,  pursuant  to  that  law 
and  following  the  duty  imposed  by  that  law  to  investigate  subversive 
activities  in  the  United  States  of  America. 

I  now  wish  to  call  James  Walker  Benet. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  the  sub- 
committee, do  you  solemnly  swear  that  you  will  tell  the  truth,  the 
whole  truth,  and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  do. 

(Representative  Donald  L.  Jackson  left  the  hearing  room  at  this 
point.) 

TESTIMONY  OF  JAMES  WALKEE  BENET  II 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  state  your  name,  please  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  My  name  is  James  Walker  Benet  11. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  see  that  you  are  not  accompanied  by  counsel,  Mr. 
Benet.  You  know  that  you  have,  of  course,  the  right  before  this 
committee  to  have  counsel  if  you  so  desire.  Is  it  your  desire  to  testify 
without  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes,  it  is.  I  would  like  to  offer  you  this  statement  for 
inclusion  into  the  record  with  my  testimony  at  this  point. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  of  course  the  rules  require  that  this 
statement  by  the  witness  be  filed  within  a  reasonable  period  of  time 
in  advance  of  the  hearing,  but  I  recommend  under  the  circumstances 
that  the  statement  be  accepted  to  be  filed  and  considered  by  the  com- 
mittee in  due  accordance  with  our  rules  and  regulations. 

Mr.  Velde.  It  is  so  instructed. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  shall  pass  the  statement  to  the  clerk. 

Now,  would  you  state  where  you  were  born,  sir,  and  when? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  was  born  in  Port  Washington,  Long  Island,  N.  Y., 
January  7, 1914. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3393 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  your  present  address  ? 
Mr.  Benet.  2121  Vallejo  Street,  San  Francisco. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  Where  are  you  employed,  sir  ? 
Mr.  Benet.  At  the  San  Francisco  Chronicle. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  used  the  name  of  Jim  Thompson? 
Mr.  Benet.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  used  any  alias  of  any  kind  whatsoever  ? 
Mr.  Benet.  Not  that  I  can  recall. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  should  like  to  quote  from  sworn  tes- 
timony before  this  committee  by  Martin  Berkeley. 

Question.  Were  [Martin  Berkeley]  you  assigned  to  any  particular  club  at 
that  time? 

Answer.  No,  sir. 

Question.  Or  a  unit  of  the  party? 

Answer.  I  was  kept  in  that  particular  Patrick  Henry  Club  of  the  Communist 
Party. 

Question.  Do  you  recall  the  names  of  any  of  the  other  members  of  the  group? 

Answer.  I  do,  sir.  The  chairman  of  our  group,  which  at  the  time  I  joined 
we  had  about  75  members,  and  within  6  weeks  we  had  approximately  175  mem- 
"bers,  and  it  then  split  up  and  took  some  more  loft  buildings,  but  the  head  of  the 
group  was  Jim  Thompson,  who  was  either  a  brother  or  a  cousin  of  Robert  Thomp- 
son, one  of  the  convicted  top  Communists.  Also  in  the  group  was  Isidor  Schnei- 
der, editor  and  contributor  to  New  Masses;  William  Browder,  who  was  a 
brother  of  Earl  Browder :  a  man  named  Lee  Sabinson.  who  at  that  time  was  a 
screen  writer,  and  who  is  now  a  very  well  known  Broadway  producer.  I  will 
say  that  most  of  the  members  of  the  group  were  workingmen,  with  just  this 
handful  of  intellectuals  who  were  artists  in  this  particular  group. 

This  is  now  from  the  supplemental  sworn  statement : 

As  head  of  the  first  group  to  which  you  [Martin  Berkeley]  were  assigned  you 
identified  Jim  Thompson.  Is  Jim  Thompson  the  correct  name  of  the  indi- 
vidual? 

Answer.  No. 

Question.  What  is  his  correct  name? 

Answer.  James  Walker  Benet. 

Question.  AVill  you  further  identify  James  Walker  Benet? 

Answer.  Jim  Benet  was  the  head  of  my  first  group  in  the  Communist  Party 
in  New  York  known  as  the  Patrick  Henry  Club.  My  understanding  is  that  some- 
time in  1936  or  1937 — I  do  not  recall  the  exact  date — he  went  to  Spain.  He  is 
the  son  of  William  Rose  Benet,  the  poet.  I  joined  the  Communist  Party  in  New 
York  in  the  early  fall  of  1936  and  left  for  Hollywood.  Calif.,  during  the  middle 
of  January  1937.  I  knew  him  through  that  period  as  a  Communist  and  a  leader 
of  the  group  with  which  I  was  associated. 

Mr.  Benet,  do  you  wish  to  confirm  or  deny  that  testimony  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  This  is  supposed  to  have  taken  place  in  what  year  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Will  you  read  the  teslimony  back  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  just  wanted  to  make  certain  of  the  year  you  men- 
tioned. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  He  talks  about  1937, 1936.  I  will  get  the  further  year 
for  you  in  a  moment.  If  you  will  indulge  us  just  a  moment,  Mr. 
Chairman,  we  will  get  the  exact  date  he  wants. 

The  year  1936  or  1937  was  given  in  this  testimony  in  connection  with 
jour  going  to  Spain. 

Mr.  Benet.  I  see.  The  question  is  whether  I  wished  to  affirm  or 
deny  this  testimony  ? 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Benet.  Is  that  it?  Well,  there  are  a  great  many  statements 
involved  there.     I  will  say  this,  that  I  think  that  the  questioning  and 


3394       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

the  testimony  of  this  witness  is  an  attempt  to  link  me  to  things  in  con- 
nection with  which  a  prosecution  might  possibly  be  brought  against 
me.  I  will  not  answer  the  question  further,  and  I  will  depend  on  my 
rights  under  the  fifth  amendment  not  to  testify  against  myself. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Benet,  did  you  fill  out  a  form  asking  for  a  pass- 
port in  which  you  indicated  that  the  purpose  of  your  trip  was  travel 
to  England,  Holland,  and  Germany,  intending  to  return  to  the  United 
States  within  1  year  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  certainly  applied  for  a  passport  in  1937.  I  have  no 
recollection  of  what  purposes  were  stated  on  it. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  that  the  first  passport  you  applied  for  at  any  time? 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes ;  I  believe  it  was. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  On  that  passport  did  you  go  abroad  and  then  go 
through  France,  down  to  Spain,  and  fight  in  Spain  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  certainly  did  go  to  Spain.  I  didn't  need  the  passport 
to  enter  Spain,  however. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  When  you  left  the  United  States  of  America  and  you 
made  your  application  for  passport,  you  stated : 

I  intend  to  return  within  1  year,  and  I  intend  to  visit  the  following  countries 
for  the  purpose  of  travel :  England,  Holland,  and  Germany. 

Did  you  at  that  time  intend  to  go  to  Spain  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  You  are  asking  me  about  something  a  long  time  ago. 
As  I  say,  I  have  no  recollection  of  what  was  stated  on  the  application, 
and  as  I  said,  I  did  go  to  Spain.  I  am  not  going  to  attempt  to  recall 
my  state  of  mind. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  will  refuse  to  answer  that  question,  too,  on  the  same 
ground,  that  the  fifth  amendment  protects  me  from  being  compelled 
to  testify  against  myself. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  No. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  yester- 
day? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  think  that  the  question  is  somewhat  absurd. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  I  don't  think  it  is  in  the  slightest.  It  is  very  simple. 
Were  you  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  yesterday  ?  You  said 
already  under  oath  that  you  are  not  now  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes,  I  recall  my  answer,  sir.  Again  I  think  the  ques- 
tion is  absurd. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  Would  you  kindly  answer  it? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  didn't  have  time  to  do  anything  yesterday.  I  was 
here  listening  to  this  committee's  hearings  under  subpena,  but  I  will 
answer  the  question,  absurd  as  it  is :  No,  I  was  not  yesterday. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  All  right.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party  1  month  ago? 

Mr.  Benet.  Since  you  evidently  intend  to  go  back  and  attempt 
to  pin  down  dates,  I  will  say  that  to  further  questions  like  this  one 
I  will  decline  to  answer  on  the  grounds  I  have  stated. 

Mr.  Kunzig.  So  as  to  1  month  ago  you  refuse  to  answer  on  the 
grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment? 

Mr.  Benet.  That  is  correct. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3395 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Were  you  a  member  of  the  Abraham  Lincoln  Brigade 
when  you  were  in  Spain  ? 

Mr.  Benet,  I  was  for  a  part  of  the  time  I  was  there;  yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Did  you  know  Martin  Berkeley,  the  man  whose  tes- 
timony counsel  just  read  to  you? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  don't  recall  his  name  after  a  period  of  what  he  states 
to  have  been  16  or  17  years.  I  may  have  met  such  a  person  that  long 
ago,  but  I  don't  remember  his  name  at  this  moment. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Is  any  part  of  the  testimony  of  Martin  Berkeley 
which  counsel  read  to  you  true,  witness  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  don't  know.  He  named  a  lot  of  people  about  whom 
he  said  certain  things.    I  couldn't  tell  you. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Well,  is  any  part  of  the  testimony  of  Martin  Berkeley 
with  reference  to  you  true? 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes,  sir;  he  accurately  named  my  father. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Is  that  all? 

Mr.  Benet.  He  inaccurately  stated  that  I  am  related  to  Bob  Thomp- 
son, who  was  convicted  under  the  Smith  Act.    That  is  not  true. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Well,  now 

Mr.  Benet.  At  least  I  assume  it  is  not.  As  far  as  I  know,  there 
is  no  relation.  He  may  go  back  to  Massachusetts  a  hundred  years 
ago,  too. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Having  had  your  recollection  refreshed  by  the  testi- 
mony read  by  counsel,  did  you  ever  use  the  alias  of  Jim  Thompson? 

Mr.  Benet.  Not  to  the  best  of  my  recollection. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  now  that  you  can't  remem- 
ber whether  you  knew  this  man,  Berkeley,  or  not? 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes,  sir ;  that  is  what  I  said.    That  is  true. 

Mr.  Scherer.  AVas  there  anything  in  the  testimony  of  Martin  Berke- 
ley as  read  to  you  that  you  know  to  be  false,  particularly  with  reference 
to  yourself? 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  I  think  that  is  rather  tricky.  Along  that  line 
of  questioning  you  could  compel  me — or  you  could  lead  me  to  answer 
a  question  which  I  have  already  declined  to  answer  under  my  con- 
stitutional rights,  and  I  think  I  won't  answer  any  more  questions  about 
that  testimony  so  far  as  I  can  see  at  the  moment. 

Mr.  Scherer.  All  right.  You  have  a  perfect  right  to  decline  to 
answer  it  if  you  properly  and  in  good  faith  invoke  the  fifth  amend- 
ment of  the  Constitution.  Could  I  have  that  testimony  just  a  minute 
that  you  read  from  ? 

Did  you  ever  live  in  the  city  of  New  York? 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Scherer.  And  would  you  tell  us  during  what  years  you  lived 
in  the  city  of  New  York  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  lived  there  from  late  in  1935  until  late  in  1946  with 
a  period  out  while  I  was  in  Spain. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Now,  I  don't  believe  counsel  asked  you  specifically: 
during  the  time  that  you  lived  in  the  city  of  New  Y'ork  were  you  a 
member  of  the  Patrick  Henry  Club  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  that  again  is  a  question  on  this  testimony,  I  think, 
sir,  and  I  will  decline  to  answer  it  on  the  same  grounds. 


3396       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  ScHERER.  On  the  grounds  of  the  fifth  amendment.  What  type 
of  work  were  you  engaged  in  during  the  time  you  lived  in  New  York? 

Mr.  Benet.  Journalism. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  believe  that  is  all  the  questions  I  have  at  this  mo- 
ment, Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Mr.  Benet,  under  this  Public  Law  601  which  our  counsel 
read  part  of  at  the  beginning  of  this  afternoon's  hearing,  to  which  law 
I  have  called  attention  in  the  last  3  or  4  days  on  several  occasions,  I 
want  to  direct  your  attention  to  1  section  thereof  and  secure  coopera- 
tion. 

I  never  met  you ;  I  have  never  read  anything  about  you,  so  I  am 
deliberately  asking  you  this  question  in  the  utmost  good  faith ;  I  am 
not  trying  to  trap  you  nor  entice  you  into  making  any  statement.  But 
part  of  the  law  under  which  we  operate  tells  us  to  go  into  questions 
with  relation  to  possible  remedial  legislation  dealing  with  the  subject 
of  subversive  conduct  and  un-American  activities  and  to  make  our 
recommendation  to  the  United  States  Congress,  and  we  have  done  that, 
as  was  called  attention  to  this  morning,  and  there  are  several  laws  now 
on  the  statute  book  wholly  or  in  part  the  result  of  the  activities  of  this 
committee,  as  a  result  of  investigations  such  as  the  one  we  are  now  in 
the  process  of  having. 

But  you  are  a  schooled  gentleman,  and  I  want  to  ask  you  if  you  have 
any  suggestion  or  idea  which  your  Congress  should  consider  in  the 
subject  of  legislation  dealing  even  more  thoroughly  or  differently  with 
the  subject  of  subversive  conduct  in  the  United  States  than  we  pres- 
ently have  on  the  statute  books. 

Have  you  any  such  suggestion  ?    Have  you  considered  the  matter  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes,  sir ;  I  have. 

Mr.  Doyle.  If  you  have,  I  want  to  get  the  benefit,  whatever  it  may 
be.    I  have  no  idea  what  it  may  be. 

Mr.  Benet.  I  don't  wish  to  be  flippant  with  you,  Mr.  Doyle.  I 
don't  mean  to  give  you  a  smart  or  cheap  answer. 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  haven't  been  with  you,  and  I  don't  expect  you  to  be 
with  me. 

Mr.  Benet,  But  I  must  seriously  say  that,  as  I  indicated  in  the  state- 
ment that  I  handed  to  counsel 

Mr.  D0Y1.E,  I  haven't  seen  that,  of  course. 

Mr.  Benet.  No.  Mr.  Scherer  has  it.  Would  you  like  to  see  it  before 
I  continue  ?    Mr.  Scherer  has  it. 

Mr.  Doyle.  No;  whatever  statement  vou  made  wouldn't  make  me 
withdraw  my  question  because  I  am  asking  your  cooperation  in  good 
faith. 

Mr.  Benet.  That  is  so.  In  that  statement  I  say  that  I  wish  to  pro- 
tect myself  in  the  American  way  against  un-American  activities,  and 
by  "un-American  activities"  I  mean,  of  course,  the  activities  of  this 
committee,  sir.  I  think  that  the  committee  is  injuring  every  citizen, 
is  an  offense  against  the  Constitution,  and  is,  as  President  Truman 
called  it  recently — former  President  Truman — a  cancer. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Well,  now,  may  I  just  ask  you  this — I  didn't  ask  you 
this  question  in  good  faith  in  order  to  f^ive  you  the  time  or  opportunity 
to  make  a  speech  criticizing  the  committee.  I  am  asking  you  in  good 
faith,  liave  you  any  suggestion  in  the  field  of  legislation? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  think  the  answer  flows  from  what  I  said. 


COMMUNIST  ACTR'ITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA       3397 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  don't  expect  you  to  take  advantage  of  my  good  faith 
question  in  making  a  critical  speech  against  the  committee.  I  don't 
think  that  is  cricket. 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  I  haven't  any  wish  to  be  offensive.  But  I  think 
it  is  clear  from  what  I  said  that  any  suggestion  that  I  might  make  to 
you  about  legislation  would  be  legislation  to  curtail  the  activities  of 
this  committee,  wliich  I  think  would  be  a  legislation  against  subversion 
of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  DoTLE.  Well,  now,  do  I  understand  then  that  you  don't  think 
your  United  States  Congress  ought  to  investigate  subversive  conspira- 
cies wherever  they  exist  in  the  United  States  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  certainly  don't  think  that  they  should  do  what  this 
committee  is  doing,  and  that  is  to  bring  people  before  it  in  a  glare  of 
publicity  of  people  against  whom  informers  have  made  accusations 
and  in  effect  to  hold  a  public  trial  of  them  without  the  safeguards 
which  the  Constitution  gives  to  the  people  properly  on  trial  before  a 
court. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Well,  of  course — and  I  won't  debate  the  issue  with  you 
here  or  discuss  it  with  you  at  great  length.  We  don't  have  time  to  do 
that.  But  of  course  this  is  no  court  and  couldn't  be  a  court  in  the 
nature  of  the  thing.  We  are  a  factfinding  body,  and  every  witness 
appearing  before  us  always  has  the  right  to  counsel,  and  the  thing  we 
are  trying  to  find  out,  as  the  record  clearly  speaks,  Mr.  Benet,  in  my 
book — as  the  record  clearly  speaks  uncontrovertedly — that  the  Com- 
munist Party  in  America  ever  since  the  Duclos  letter,  which  came  to 
this  country,  I  think,  in  April  1945,  has  been  advocating — maybe  not 
all  the  members  of  the  Communist  Party  in  America,  but  the  leader- 
ship in  this  country  since,  at  least,  April  of  1945 — the  use  of  force  and 
violence. 

Now,  that  is  the  reason  I  am  interested  in  working  on  this  committee, 
not  because  we  may  have  difference  of  thought  or  controversial  sub- 
jects, and  I  am  going  to  close  my  question  because  you  apparently 
haven't  given  the  subject  matter  from  that  angle  the  thought  that  I 
hoped  you  might  have  on  the  question  of  subversives,  because  I  know 
of  no  way  to  uncover  subversives  except  to  uncover  them.  They  don't 
hesitate  to  subvert  our  Government  by  keeping  underground. 

I  was  in  Spain  a  month  ago  wliere  you  were,  by  the  way,  and  I  was 
in  Portugal  where  you  were  probably,  and  I  was  in  France  and 
Germany  and  Austria  and  Norway  and  Italy,  and  I  found  the  same 
underground  conspiracy  over  there. that  is  going  on  in  my  country. 
It  is  part  of  the  same  conspiracy,  sir,  but  I  thank  you  at  any  rate  for 
your  observations. 

Mr.  Velde.  While  you  were  in  Spain  were  j^ou  connected  with  the 
Abraham  Lincoln  Brigade? 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes,  sir;  I  have  already  said  I  was. 

Mr.  Doyle.  May  I  make  one  further  statement,  Mr.  Chairman,  if 
you  are  through  ? 

Mr.  Velde.  Yes,  proceed. 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  note  that  you  frankly  stated  and  immediately  stated 
that  you  were  not  today  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  Benet.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  DoYi.E.  I  don't  know  how  long  you  have  been  out  of  it.  I  am 
not  criticizing  you  for  the  position  you  have  taken,  assuming  that  you 


3398       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

are  sincere — which  I  will  assume,  sir — but  by  inference  at  least  the 
form  of  the  question  and  the  answer  leads  me  to  feel — and  I  am  trying 
to  be  reasonable  about  it,  believe  me — that  there  was  a  time  in  the  last 
10  years  when  you  were  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party, 

Now,  if  that  is  true,  won't  you  please  accept  our  urgent  invitation, 
as  your  Congressmen,  because  we  are  United  States  Congressmen,  and 
this  is  no  picnic,  this  kind  of  a  job  we  have  to  do,  I  assure  you,  but  it 
is  a  job  and  a  dutiful  job  to  do — but  won't  you  please  be  at  least  as 
active,  as  I  said  to  a  gentleman  this  morning,  against  the  functioning 
of  the  Communist  Party  in  America,  which  I  call  a  Communist  con- 
spiracy, with  knowledge  and  forethought — won't  you  at  least  be  as 
active  against  the  Communist  conspiracy  in  this  country  as  I  assume 
you  were  when  and  if  you  were  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  in 
America. 

I  urge  you  to  do  that  because  you  are  in  a  strategic  position,  sir,  as 
a  journalist  and  a  writer,  to  apply  your  brains  and  your  God-given 
liberty  and  freedom  to  help  destroy  the  thing  and  to  put  in  its  place 
the  idealism  which  should  be  substituted  for  it.  I  don't  want  to  take 
advantage  of  you;  I  don't  intend  to  take  advantage  of  you,  but  I 
recognize  you  as  a  brainy  American  who  should  be  giving  much  to 
the  country. 

Mr.  Benet.  If  I  may  be  permitted  to  answer  something  that  was  not 
quite  a  question,  Mr.  Doyle,  I  hope  I  will  always  be  ready  to  uphold 
and  defend  the  American  principles  and  American  rights  to  freedom. 
I  can  give  you  my  word  I  always  will  do  so. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Well,  you  can't  stay  in  the  Communist  Party  and  do 
that,  in  my  book.    Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  Benet.  Thank  you,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  hold  any  rank  as  a  member  of  the  Abraham 
Lincoln  Brig£*de,  Mr.  Benet? 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  I  was  a  sergeant,  and  I  was  a  corporal  at  different 
times. 

Mr.  Velde.  How  long  were  you  in  the  brigade  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  we  are  getting  into  a  little  difficulty  of  nomen- 
clature. There  was  an  Abraham  Lincoln  Battalion  in  the  Interna- 
tional Brigades. 

I  was  only  in  that  battalion  briefly,  but  I  was  in  the  International 
Brigades  for  a  year  and  a  half. 

Mr.  Velde.  All  that  time  you  were  in  Spain,  I  take  it  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  That  is  so. 

Mr.  Velde.  Did  you  know  Steve  Nelson  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  don't  believe  I  ever  met  him. 

Mr.  Velde.  You,  of  course,  have  heard  of  him  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  have  heard  of  him,  and  he  was  convicted  recently  in 
Pennsylvania,  I  believe. 

Mr.  Velde.  He  was  likewise  a  member  of  the  Abraham  Lincoln 
Brigade.    I  suppose  you  know 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  I  suppose  that  is  true.  I  don't  think  I  ever  met 
him,  but  it  has  been  so  stated  many  times  in  the  press. 

_  Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Counsel,  I  think  it  proper  at  this  point  to  read  the 
citation  of  the  Abraham  Lincoln  Brigade  into  the  record. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  The  Abraham  Lincoln  Brigade  or  Battalion,  Mr. 
Chairman,  was  cited  as  Communist  by  Attorney  General  Tom  Clark 


€OMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3399 

in  a  letter  to  the  Loyalty  Review  Board  on  April  27,  1949 ;  Special 
Committee  on  Un-American  Activities  in  19M,  March  29;  it  was 
cited  as  a  Communist  front  by  the  California  Committee  on  Un- 
American  Activities  in  1948 ;  and  by  the  Massachusetts  House  Com- 
mittee of  Un-American  Activities  in  1938. 

Mr.  Benet.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  Abraham  Lincoln  Brigade,  of 
course,  ceased  to  exist  after  the  end  of  the  Spanish  War.  I  don't  see 
how  it  could  have  been  cited. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  These  are  official  records  of  Attorney  General  Tom 
Clark. 

Mr.  Velde.  These  are  records  of  the  Attorney  General. 

Mr.  Benet.  Can  you  explain  them  to  me  ? 

Mr.  Scherer.  It  was  cited  for  being  a  Communist-dominated  or- 
ganization during  the  time  of  its  existence.  No  organization  is  cited 
unless 


Mr.  Benet.  About  10  years  afterward. 

Mr.  Scherer.  The  first  citation  was  in  1938,  I  understand. 

Did  you  ever  receive  any  compensation  from  the  Abraham  Lincoln 
Brigade  or  Battalion  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  the  international  brigades  were,  of  course,  part 
of  the  Spanish  Republic's  Army,  and  every  soldier  in  the  Spanish 
Republic  Army  was  paid. 

Mr.  Scherer.  They  paid  your  transportation  home,  too? 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  that  is  a  long  time  ago.  As  I  remember  it,  I 
paid  a  good  deal  of  it  myself.  I  couldn't  answer  you  accurately  on 
that. 

Mr.  Scherer.  I  happen  to  have  an  affidavit  of  yours  made  in  France 
in  which  you  say  that  they  paid  your  transportation  expenses  home. 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  if  that  is  a  proper  affidavit,  it  is  no  doubt  correct. 

Mr.  Scherer.  May  I  ask  just  1  or  2  more  questions  ?  Did  you  know 
Lee  Sabinson  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  don't  recall  that  name. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Did  you  know  Isidor  Schneider,  the  editor  and  con- 
tributor to  the  New  Masses,  during  the  time  you  were  in  the 

Mr.  Benet.  Yes ;  I  think  I  did  meet  him  on  several  occasions. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Did  you  know  William  Browder,  Earl  Browder's 
brother  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  may  have  met  him  a  long  time  ago;  I  really  can't 
recall. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Now,  isn't  it  a  fact  -that  they  were  all  members  with 
you  in  the  Communist  Party  in  New  York,  in  fact,  in  the  same  section 
or  cell  or  club  ? 

Mr.  Benet.  I  think  again  that  is  rather  tricky  when  I  tell  you  that 
I  am  not  able  to  recall  knowing  a  man  and  then  you  ask  me  if,  in  fact, 
I  didn't  belong  in  an  organization  with  him. 

Mr.  Scherer.  You  have  a  right,  of  course,  to  decline. 

Mr.  Benet.  Well,  you  acknowledge,  of  course,  that  it  is  rather 
tricky. 

Mr.  ScHFJiER.  No,  I  don't  acknowledge  that  it  is  rather  tricky.  I 
think  the  evidence  is  clear  that  it  is  a  matter  of  fact  that  you  were. 
1  am  just  going  to  ask  you  if  that  isn't  the  fact.     You  have  a  right 

Mr.  Benet.  Again  you  are  talking  about  the  evidence  of  that  wit- 
ness whose  name,  in  fact,  I  don't  recall,  and  I  will  give  you  the  same 


3400       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

answer  that  I  will  decline  to  discuss  that  testimony  any  further  under 
my  rights  under  the  fifth  amendment. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  have  no  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  Is  there  any  reason  why  the  witness  should  be  retained 
under  subpena? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  sir. 

Mr.  Velde.  If  not,  the  witness  is  dismissed. 

At  this  time  I  should  like  to  read  into  the  record  a  letter  which  I 
have  just  received  dated  December  4,  1953,  addressed  to  me  as  chair- 
man of  the  Committee  on  Un-American  Activities : 

Dear  Mr.  Veide :  We  are  writing  to  you  as  the  spokesman  for  the  Young 
Democrats  of  San  Francisco,  Inc.,  which  organization  was  incorporated  under 
the  laws  of  the  State  of  California  some  20  years  ago  and  is  now  and  has  l)een 
continuously  during  said  lime  an  integral  and  active  arm  of  the  Democratic 
Party  and  a  staunch  supporter  of  its  leadership. 

Our  organization  has  continuously  and  successfully  fought  the  infiltration  of 
Communists  and  party-liners  into  its  ranlis  on  a  national  and  statewide  level, 
even  at  a  time  when  the  cause  which  you  are  now  espousing  was  far  less  popular 
than  it  is  today. 

We  feel  that  your  committee  here  in  San  Francisco  is  performing  a  most 
worthwhile  service  to  all  Americans  and  we  wish  to  commend  its  temperance, 
fairness,  and  sense  of  fair  play. 

You  and  your  committee  have  our  full  support. 
Sincerely  yours, 

Edward  Le^^in, 
President,  Young  Democrats  of  San  Francisco,  Inc. 
ErjsA    Manfredi   Kennedy, 
Secretary  of  Yonng  Democrats  of  San  Francisco,  Inc.,  and  former  nation- 
al committee  woman  of  Young  Democrats  of  California,  Inc. 

.John  N.  Riggs, 
Past  State  President  of  Young  Democrats  of  California,  Inc. 

I  am  sure  all  of  the  committee  members  appreciate  this  very  fine 
letter. 

Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Donald  Ames. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
ai^d  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  WILLIAM  DONALD  AMES 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  state  your  full  name,  please,  Mr.  Ames? 

Mr.  Ames.  William  Donald  Ames. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  note,  Mr.  Ames,  that  you  are  not  accompanied  by 
counsel.  You  iniderstand,  of  course,  your  rights  before  this  commit- 
tee to  have  counsel  sit  at  your  side  and  advise  you  during  testimony. 
Do  you  desire  to  have  counsel  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  do  not. 

]Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  state  your  present  address,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Gig  Harbor,  Wash. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  spell  that? 

Mr.  Ames.  G-i-g  H-a-r-b-o-r. 

Mr.  KuxziG.  When  and  where  were  you  born? 

Mr.  Ames.  Burley,  Idaho. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party, 
Mr.  Ames? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  have. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA       3401 

Mr.  Kdnzig.  Are  you  now  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  am  not. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  relate  to  the  committee,  please,  Mr.  Ames, 
the  circumstances  under  which  you  joined  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  It  was  in  the  summer  of  1946,  during  the  CIO  conven- 
tion of  the  telephone  workers,  that  a  friend  of  my  wife's  came  to  her 
that  she  felt  that  some  of  the  officials  were  Communists.  My  wife 
had  previously  worked  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation  down 
in  San  Diego  prior  to  the  war.  So  after  that  this  woman,  who  was  a 
telephone  operator,  I  believe,  she  asked  my  wife  what  to  do.  So  my 
wife  suggested  that  she  go  to  the  FBI  with  what  she  felt,  and  this 
woman  wanted  my  wife  to  go  with  her,  and  in  doing  so,  through  the 
course  of  conversation,  why,  the  Bureau  up  here  in  Oakland  found  out 
that  my  wife  had  worked  for  the  Bureau  in  San  Diego  prior  to  the 
war,  and  after  the  reports  being  made  by  tliis  woman  to  the  Bureau  the 
Bureau  contacted  my  wife  and  me  and  asked  if  we  would  go  back  into 
the  party  and  work  as  undercover  agents  for  them,  which  we  did  in 
the  fall  of  1946,  I  believe  it  was  September  or  October,  and  we  re- 
mained in  the  party  until  September  1950,  when  we  were  dropped 
from  the  party  rolls  for  inactivity,  and,  both  of  us  being  in  Federal 
civil  service,  they  felt  that  we  were  not  a  part  of  the  hardened  core 
of  the  party. 

Mr.  Velde.  What  did  you  say,  Mr.  Ames,  about  the  civil  service? 

Mr.  Ames.  We  were  both  employed  in  civil  service,  Naval  Air  Sta- 
tion, Alameda,  and  that  they  felt  we  weren't  a  part  of  the  hard  core 
of  the  party,  which  they  were  weeding  out,  and,  being  in  civil  service, 
that  we  weren't  as  active  as  they  thought  we  should  be. 

Mr.  Velde.  You  don't  mean  that  they  were  weeding  out  the  hard 
core  of  the  party ;  they  were  weeding  out  the  weaker  members. 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  less  diligent  members  of  the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Ames,  we  are  to  understand,  then,  that  you  were 
in  the  Communist  Party  from  1946  until  1950,  working  under  cover 
for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation;  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  iVnd  your  wife  was  doing  the  same? 

Mr.  Ames.  We  were  both  doing  the  same  work. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  When  you  joined  the  party,  Mr.  Ames,  to  what  group 
were  you  first  assigned  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  We  were  assigned  to  the  Elmhurst  Club,  one  of  the  clubs 
of  the  east  Oakland  group. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  recollect  any  of  the  other  members  of  that 
group  who  sat  with  you  as  members  of  this  Communist  club? 

Mr.  Ames.  Well,  at  the  time  that  we  joined  I  believe  Kathleen  Dick- 
erson  was  chairman  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Velde.  Will  you  spell  that  name,  please? 

Mr.  Ames.  Kathleen,  K-a-t-h-1-e-e-n,  Dickerson,  D-i-c-k-e-r-s-o-n. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  recollect  her  work  or  employment,  if  any,  or 
her  residence  at  that  time  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  At  that  time  she  was  a  housewife ;  and  then  there  was 
Bill  and  Rosalie  Crockett. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  their  employment  or  address? 


3402       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Ames.  Bill  Crockett,  he  is  a  gardener,  landscape,  and  they  lived 
on  Mountain  Boulevard.  I  don't  recall  the  address.  Mr.  Counsel, 
may  I  refer  to  some  notes  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Yes;  you  may.  May  I  ask  you,  Mr.  Ames,  is  this  the 
first  time  that  you  have  testified  before  any  congressional  hearings 
with  regard  to  your  activities  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investiga- 
tion? 

Mr.  Ames.  It  is. 

Mr.  KuNziG-  Are  there  any  other  people  whom  you  recollect  from 
this  first  group  to  which  you  were  assigned  in  the  Communist  Partv^ 

Mr.  Ames.  Another  one  is  Molly  Thorner. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  her  occupation  or  address  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Oh,  she  was  a  housewife. 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  Was  she  a  member  of  this  group? 

Mr.  Ames.  She  was  a  member  of  the  Elmhurst  Club. 

Mr.  KuNZTG-  In  order  to  have  it  specifically  clear,  we  are  only  in- 
terested in  names  of  people  whom  you  knew  to  be  members  of  the 
Communist  Party.  These  people  whom  you  have  mentioned  you  knew 
to  be  members  of  the  party,  is  that  right? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  there  any  others,  sir? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  Avas  membership  director  at  one  time. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  were  membership  director? 

Mr.  Ames.  Of  the  club,  and  I  issued  cards  to  them. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  continue,  please? 

Mr.  Ames.  Later  on  a  fellow  by  the  name  of  Williams,  an  auto  me- 
chanic transferred  from 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  Would  you  spell  that,  please?    Wliat  was  that  name? 

Mr.  Ames.  Bill  Williams.  He  transferred  from  the  Berkeley  Club 
to  the  Elmhurst  Club. 

Mr.  Ames.  And  then  Rosalind  Lindsmith,  who  was  a  city  health 
nurse,  transferred  into  the  Elmhurst  Club. 

Mr.  Velde.  Will  you  spell  that  name,  please,  Mr.  Ames? 

Mr.  Ames.  L-i-n-d-s-m-i-t-h.  And  Marge  and  Jake  Price.  He 
was — I  don't  exactly  know  what  his  work  was — general  labor;  and 
Mr.  Keller,  Marge  Price's  father. 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  How  do  you  spell  "Keller"? 

Mr.  Ames.  K-e-1-l-e-r. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  his  occupation  at  all? 

Mr.  Ames.  No,  I  don't. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  He  was  the  father,  though,  of  this  Marge  Price  whom 
you  have  just  mentioned? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right;  and  later  on,  Louise  and  James 
Gilliam 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  spell  "Gilliam"? 

Mr.  Ames.  G-i-1-l-i-a-m — was  recruited  into  the  club. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  the  occupation  or  address  or  any  further 
identification  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  James  Gilliam,  he  Avas  a  mine  smelter  worker  of  east 
Oakland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  report  all  these  various  names  and  informa- 
tion which  you  garnered  to  the  Federal  Bureau  during  your 

Mr.  Ames.  It  is  all  on  record  with  the  Federal  Bureau  of 
Investigation. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3403 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  continue,  please? 

Mr.  Ames.  Other  people  who  I  knew  to  be  members  of  the  Com- 
munist Party,  James  McFadclen,  a  plumber,  who  was  a  membership 
director  of  the  east  Oakland  section,  Elizabeth  Barlow,  who  was  the 
educational  director  at  one  time. 

Mr.  Velde.  Will  you  spell  that  name,  please,  Mr.  Ames? 

Mr.  Ames.  B-a-r-1-o-w.  And  Willie  Laughery,  who  was  manager 
of  the  Berkeley  book  store  of  the  Communist  organ,  where  all  the  lit- 
erature was  received  throughout  the  east  Oakland  area. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Ames,  could  you  spell  that  "Laughery"  for  us, 
please  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  L-a-u-g-h-e-r-y.  And  Joe  Melia,  who  was  IPP  cam- 
paign director. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  that  the  same  Mr.  Melia  who  testified  here  before 
this  committee? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  recognize  him  as  the  same  person? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  knew  him  to  be  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right,  because  I  attended  functionary  meetings 
which  were  closed  to  only  party  members,  and  he  was  in  attendance, 
because  at  functionary  meetings,  most  of  them,  you  had  to  have  a  pass 
or  a  slip  designating  you  to  attend  that  particular  meeting.  Nobody 
except  Communist  members  were  allowed  to  enter  it. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  there  any  other  members  of  this  club  whom  you 
knew  to  be  members  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  attended  quite  a  number  of  functionary  meetings 
and  educational  meetings  when  I  was  in  many  various  jobs  in  the 
clubs,  literature  director,  educational  director,  and  later  on,  funds 
director,  and  at  various  meetings  that  were  closed  to  only  Com- 
munist members,  who  were  one  time  Herschel  Alexander,  who  was  the 
director  of  the  Civil  Eights  Congress  in  Oakland,  was  in  attendance 
at  a  closed  meeting  in  Oakland  about,  oh,  I  believe  in  1947  in  what 
used  to  be  the  old  key  system  union  hall.  Bimbo  Brown  was  a  ware- 
houseman, I  believe. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  spell  that,  please? 

Mr.  Ames.  B-i-m-b-o  B-r-o-w-n  was  in  attendance  at  several  closed 
meetings  of  the  functionaries  at  the  same  place  and  was  working — at 
that  time  I  was  educational  director  and  had  been  assigned  for  the 
Peoples  World  drive  for  increased  circulation,  new  subscriptions,  and 
that  was  a  meeting  held  on  12th  Street  in  Oakland.  The  principal 
reason  of  the  meeting  was  to  try  and  increase  the  circulation  of 
Peoples  World.    Leo  Baroway 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  spell  that,  please? 

Mr.  Ames.  L-e-o  B-a-r-o-w-a-y — was  chairman  of  the  meeting,  and 
at  that  time  I  believe  he  was  one  of  the  associate  editors  of  the  Peoples 
World. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  knew  him  to  be  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  knew  him  only  by  association  and  in  attendance  of  a 
closed  meeting  at  which  only  Communist  members  were  admitted. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  and  he  sat  together  in  a  Communist  Party  meet- 
ing at  which  only  Communist  Party  members  could  come  in? 


3404       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Let  me  ask  you — we  will  come  back  to  that  in  a  min- 
ute— what  capacities  did  you  serve  in  during  your  membership  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  During  my  membership  in  the  Communist  Party  I 
served  as  educational  director,  which  duties  was  to  attend  the  various 
educational  meetings  of  all  of  the  educational  directors  of  the  clubs 
in  the  east  bay  and  was  directed  by  the  State  educational  director  on 
what  grounds  or  fields  to  cover  in  the  educational  program  within  the 
clubs  and  to  procure  the  literature  that  could  be  used  in  following 
up  the  Marxist  and  Leninist  teachings  which  was  to  have  an  edu- 
cational period  at  each  club  meeting.  I  was  also  more  or  less  mem- 
bership and  funds  director. 

At  one  time  I  had  a  position  in  the  party  that  was  the  only  job 
that  was — that  is,  the  membership  director,  who  collected  the  dues  of 
the  members  of  the  club  and  kept  the  records  of  the  funds  which  was 
received  in  the  club  and  in  turn  turned  it  over  to  the  county  fund 
director. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  this  might  be  a  good  point 
for  a  brief  recess. 

Mr.  Velde.  At  this  point  the  committee  will  be  in  recess  for  10 
minutes. 

(Whereupon,  at  3  p.  m.,  the  hearing  was  recessed,  to  reconvene  at 
3:10  p.m.) 

(The  hearing  reconvened  at  3 :  17  p.  m.) 
Mr.  Velde.  The  committee  will  be  in  order. 
Proceed,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  is  your  present  age,  Mr.  Ames? 
Mr.  Ames.  Thirty-nine. 
Mr.  KuNziG.  And  your  present  occupation  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Aircraft  metalsmith  in  McChord  Field  in  Washington; 
that  is  near  Tacoma. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Have  you  ever  been  in  the  military  service,  Mr.  Ames  ? 
Mr.  Ames.  Yes;  I  was  in  the  United  States  Navy  from  1934  until 
January  1941,  whereupon,  a  short  time  after  leaving  the  service  I  went 
to  work  in  civil  service,  first  for  the  Army  Air  Forces,  and  then  trans- 
ferring to  the  Navy  at  the  airbase  in  Alameda,  where  I  worked  until 
after  the  war,  and  I  believe  it  was  in  October  of  1945  when  I  resigned. 
I  bought  a  service  station,  operated  the  service  station  for  approxi- 
mately 214  years.  After  selling  the  service  station  I  went  back  into 
civil  service  at  the  naval  air  station  in  Alameda  and  worked  until 
September  or  August  of  1951  and  transferred  to  McChord  Air  Force 
Base  near  Tacoma,  Wash.,  where  I  am  currently  employed  now. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  JNIr.  Ames,  before  the  break  you  were  testifying  con- 
cerning the  positions  in  which  you  served  as  a  member  of  the  Com- 
munist Party,  the  capacities  that  you  had.  Would  you  continue  those 
various  positions,  please? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  believe  at  the  time  of  the  break  I  was  an  educational 
director,  which  was  my  job  to  procure  the  literature  and  the  various 
writings  that  were  designated  by  the  State  and  county  educational 
board  to  be  used  within  the  chibs  for  the  purpose  of  teaching  the 
Marxist  and  Lenin  lines  and  also  to  hold  what  they  called  Marxist 
reading  classes. 

I  believe  it  was  1948  that  the  various  clubs  were  broken  up  into 
what  they  called  squads  of  3  to  5  members  each,  and  we  were  instructed 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3405 

to  hold  a  reading  class  on  the  Marxist  and  Leninist  teachings  of  1 
night  a  week,  which  was  in  some  groups  pretty  well  followed. 

My  w^ife,  Peggy,  was  the  squad  leader  of  one  of  the  groups  from 
the  Elmhurst  Club  in  Oakland,  East  Oakland,  and  we  held  these 
Marxist  readings  once  a  week  at  various  points,  homes  of  the  members 
of  the  Communist  Party,  members'  homes.  We  would  have  these 
reading  classes  at  first  one  member's  home,  and  then  the  next  week 
we  would  have  these  reading  classes  at  another  member's  home,  so 
that  it  was  our  instructions  that  we  were  not  to  hold  any  of  them 
consistently  in  any  one  party  member's  home  for  security  reasons. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  were  the  concentration  points  of  the  activities 
of  the  party,  so  far  as  it  lies  within  your  knowledge  during  the  time 
that  you  were  a  member  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  The  concentration  points  that  we  were  assigned  were  the 
General  Motor  Chevrolet  plant  in  East  Oakland,  and  the — I  forget 
now  the  name  of  the  steel  company  in  East  Oakland.  That  was  an- 
other one  of  the  concentration  points,  to  integrate  as  many  of  the 
steelworkers,  the  mine  and  smelter  union,  as  possible  into  membership 
of  the  party,  and  also  there  were  two  canneries  out  in  East  Oakland 
which  were  part  of  our  concentration  points  for  the  Elmhurst  Club. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  were  trying  to  recruit  members  from  the  cannery 
workers  ? 

Mr.  AaiES.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  there  any  other  unions  or  groups  which  were  con- 
centrating points  from  which  you  were  trying  to  get  members? 

Mr.  Ames.  No,  but  it  was  within  the  structure  of  the  party  to  work 
on  any  group  that  it  was  possible  to  integrate  and  get  them  to  join 
the  Communist  Party. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  But  what  you  have  mentioned  are  the  groups  that  you, 
personally,  worked  with? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Now,  you  stated  that  you  were  in  the  party  from  1946 
to  1950.  Did  you  stay  in  any  way  within  the  fringe  of  the  party  beyond 
that  time? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes.  In  1950,  after  we  dropped  from  the  party  rolls, 
why  my  wife  and  I — Peggy — worked  with  several  of  the  groups  of 
East  Oakland  from  Elmhurst  Club  that  were  concentrating  on  neigh- 
borhood problems  that  they  tried  to  bring  to  integrate  into — one  of 
them  was  the  housing  project  down  on  East  14th  Street.  I  have  for- 
gotten the  name  of  the  housing  project.  It  was  near  73d  Avenue,  and 
they  were  constantly  going  to  the  housing  authorities  and  demanding 
that  there  was  a  discrimination  in  this  housing  project  because  at  that 
time  I  don't  believe  there  were  any  Negro  people  living  in  this  housing 
project,  and  they  were  attempting  to  force  the  housing  project  to  move 
other  people  out  and  allow  a  certain  number  of  Negro  families  in  this 
project. 

]\Ir.  KuNziG.  During  the  time  that  you  were  active  in  the  party  did 
you  have  any  experience  with  the  Independent  Progressive  Party? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes,  I  acted  as  a  register  in  the  city  of  Oakland  within 
the  district  in  which  I  lived  for  the  Independent  Progi'essive  Party. 
1  went  out  and  sought  donations.  I  helped  organize  various  concen- 
tration areas  that  were  assigned  to  the  Elmhurst  Club  that  we  were  to 
cover  for  registration,  and  to  get  as  many  people  as  we  contacted  as 


3406       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

possible  to  change  their  voting  registrations  to  the  Independent  Pro- 
gressive Party. 

Mr,  KuNziG.  Were  you  doing  this  as  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  was. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Why  was  that  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Well,  the  Communist  Party  jumped  in  on  the  third 
party's  back  and  was  using  it  as  a  front  to  seek  as  many  political 
offices  as  possible  in  the  various — around  by  the  Government  as  pos- 
sible and  was  using  the  Independent  Progressive  Party  for  that  pur- 
pose. They  were  using  it  as  their  immediate  front  to  infiltrate  into 
the  Government  of  the  United  States. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Ames,  you  had  mentioned  previously  the  names 
of  some  of  the  people  whom  you  knew  to  be  members  of  the  Com- 
munist Party  during  the  time  you  were  a  member  working  for  the 
Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation.  Would  you  now  please  continue 
that  group  of  names  and  give  us  as  many  of  the  names  of  the  people 
whom  you  can  identify  whom  you  knew  to  be  members  of  the  Com- 
munist Party?  We  are  just  interested  in  those  whom  you  knew  to  be 
members  of  the  party. 

Mr.  Ames.  I  will  go  from  where  I  left  off  before  the  recess.  Miss 
Euth^  Black,  Robert  Black,  husband  and  wife.  I  knew  them  to  be 
members  of  the  Communist  Party  from  previous  closed  meetings  of 
the  Communist  Party.  There  was  one  session  that  was  held  at  Nor- 
way Hall  which  was  a  section  of  the  educational  forum.  Wesley 
Bodkin ;  I  attended  a  closed  meeting  of  the  Communist  Party  at  afore- 
mentioned hall  on  East  12th  Street  during  the  IPP  campaign  in  1947, 
where  he  gave  a  speech  of  how  important  it  was  to  the  warehousmen 
that  we  worked  and  concentrated  on  the  petition  to  get  the  IPP  party 
accepted  as  a  political  part;/  prior  to  the  elections  in  1948. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  What  was  this  man's  name  again? 

Mr.  Ames.  Wesley  Bodkin,  B-o-d-k-i-n. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  his  activity  or  work  or  employment? 

Mr.  Ames.  He  was  a  warehouseman. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Any  other  names? 

Mr.  Ames.  And  Bill  Clifford. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Wliat  was  his  occupation,  if  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  believe,  as  I  remember,  I  believe  he  was  in  the  building 
trades,  a  plasterer  or  a  bricklayer. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  knew  him  to  be  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  did.  He  was  in  attendance  at  that  same  meeting  that 
I  mentioned  as  Wesley  Bodkin,  and  also  in  attendance  at  that  meeting 
there  was  George  Edwards,  who  was,  I  believe,  at  that  time  one  of 
the  functionaries  of  the  West  Oakland  Club,  and  Ray  Thompson, 
who  was  one  of  the  security  functionaries. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  For  the  party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  For  the  party. 

Mr.  Ktjnzig.  Do  you  know  his  occupation  in  any  way? 

Mr.  Ames.  No ;  I  don't ;  and  also  in  attendance  at  that  meeting  was 
Wayne  Hultgren  and  his  wife,  Ruth  Hultgren. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Is  that  H-u-1-t-g-r-e-n  ? 


1  Investigation  has  determined  the  correct  name  as  being  Gladys  Black. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3407 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  Mr.  Hultgreivs  occupation  or  hers, 
if  any  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  believe  he  is  a  carpenter,  and  as  far  as  I  know,  Ruth 
is  a  housewife. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Any  others  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Then  there  was  Bernice  Kahnan  and  Ted  Kahnan. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  That  is  K-a-1-m-a-n  ^ 

Mr.  Ames.  Correct. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  their  occupations  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  No,  I  don't.  At  one  time  Bernice  Kalman  was,  I  be- 
lieve, a  secretary  or  something  in  the  office  of  the  People's  World  in 
Oakland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  knew  all  these  people  during  the  period  to  time 
you  were  a  member  from  1946  to  1950? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right.  In  addition  there  was  Lloyd  and  Fanny 
Lehman. 

Mr.  KuN"ziG.  L-e-h-m-a-n? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes,  sir ;  who  were  also  present  at  closed  meetings. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know^  any  addresses  or  occupations  for  them  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Lloyd  Lehman,  I  believe,  is  a  carpenter.  As  far  as  I 
know,  the  only  work  that  his  wife,  Fanny,  did  was  functionary  work 
in  the  party.  I  believe  at  one  time  she  was  educational  director  for 
one  of  the  clubs,  I  believe  the  Encinal  Club,  in  Alameda. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Any  other  names,  sir? 

Mr.  Ames.  Later  on,  after  this  meeting  that  I  have  mentioned,  I 
knew  Buddy  Green — I  believe  his  first  name  was  Walter.  He  was, 
I  believe,  in  1949,  People's  World  county  director, 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  knew  him  to  be  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  did.  He  sat  in  a  closed  meeting  of  the  Communist 
Party  and  was  director  for  the  People's  World,  and  gave  a  talk  on 
the  importance  of  getting  the  subscriptions  of  the  People's  World 
increased  so  that  the  w^orking  people  in  the  east  bay  area  would  know 
the  various  things  that  took  place,  which  the  party  used  as  a  labor 
movement  and  used  the  People's  World  as  its  main  organ  of  publi- 
cation throughout  the  bay  area. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  there  any  other  people  whom  you  knew  to  be 
members  of  the  party? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes;  there  was  Bob  Neville. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  N-e-v-i-1-l-e? 

Mr.  Ames.  Correct. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Do  you  know  his  occupation  or  address,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  believe  he  was  a  warehouseman.  I  do  not  know  his 
address. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Continue. 

Mr.  Ames.  There  was  Luther  Morris. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  did  you  know  Luther  Morris  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  He  was  a  member  of  the  Elmhurst  Club  at  one  time, 
and  I  believe  he  transferred  to  one  of  the  union  clubs.  I  believe  it 
was  one  of  the  electrical  workers'  clubs.  He  ran  on  the  IPP  ticket  in 
the  elections  of  1948  for  the  office  of — I  believe  it  was  State  representa- 
tive of  the  Sixth  Congressional  District. 


3408       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  knew  him  to  be  a  member  of  the  party  even 
though  he  was  running  on  the  Independent  Progressive  Party  ticket  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  did. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  knew  he  was  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  did. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Continue. 

Mr.  Ames.  I  believe  at  one  time,  if  I  remember  correctly,  I  believe 
I  delivered  his  membership  card  to  him. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  there  any  others? 

Mr.  Ames.  Loretta  Starvis. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Could  you  spell  that? 

Mr.  Ames.  S-t-a-r-v-i-s,  who  was  one  of  the  State  functionaries, 
attended  a  meeting  held  in  the  honor  of  AVilliam  Schneiderman,  who 
was  the  State  party  director,  which  was  held  in  the  Norway  Hall  on 
Piedmont  Street  in  Piedmont.  She  gave  an  educational  talk  on 
Marxism  and  Leninism.     There  was  Bill  Lowe. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  How  do  you  spell  that  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  L-o-w-e,  whom  I  met  at  a  functionaries'  meeting  held  at 
Nat  and  Ann  Yanish's  home  on  Waterhouse  Road  in  Oakland,  I  be- 
lieve in  the  summer  of  1947,  and  at  that  time  I  believe  he  was  one  of 
the  directors  or  one  of  the  functionaries  of  the  Young  Communist 
League. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  This  is  Lowe  you  are  speaking  of  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  knew  both  the  Yanishes  and  Lowe  to  be  members 
of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  did.     Edith  Sharpe. 

Mv.  KuNZiG.  Spell  it,  please. 

Mr.  Ames.  S-h-a-r-p-e.  She  was  a  member  of,  I  believe,  the  Anita 
Wliitney  Club,  and  she  also  had  attended  various  closed  meetings  of 
the  Communist  Party.  I  believe  she  at  one  time  was  an  educational 
director,  same  as  myself,  for  the  Anita  Whitney  Club.  There  was 
Leila  Thompson. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  know  her  occupation  or  address? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  don't  know  her  address,  but  I  believe,  if  my  memory 
serves  me  correct,  she  ran  for  one  of  the  elections,  I  believe  it  was  in 
1948,  for  the  school  board  in  Berkeley. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  there  any  other  people  whom  you  knew  to  be 
members  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  There  were  Clarence  and  Florence  Tobey. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Were  they  husband  and  wife? 

Mr.  Ames.  Husband  and  wife. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  you  know  his  occupation? 

Mr.  Ames.  No,  I  didn't. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  But  you  knew  both  of  them  to  be  members  of  the 
party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  did.  I  attended  meetings  on  the  expulsion  of  Flor- 
ence and  Clarence  Tobey,  one  of  which  was  held  at  the  co-op  hall  on 
McArthur  Boulevard  in  Oakland,  at  approximately  35th  Street,  I 
believe  it  was  the  fall,  the  late  fall  or  early  spring — it  was  either  late 
fall  of  1946  or  the  early  spring  of  1947 — and  I  also  attended  another 
meeting  held  on  the  expulsion  of  Florence  and  Clarence  Tobey  where 
nobody  except  Communist  Party  members  were  allowed. 


COIMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3409 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Are  there  any  other  members  you  knew  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  In  attendance  of  these  two  meetings  on  the  expulsion  of 
Chirence  and  Florence  Tobey  there  was  Gertrude  Warwick,  Billie 
and  Saul  Wachter,  previously  named,  Lloyd  Lehman.  I  believe 
Lloyd  Lelmian  conducted  the  meetings  of  the  expulsion.  James  Mc- 
Fadden,  previously  named,  and  other  party  members  who  I  knew; 
James  and  Ida  "Wood  at  whose  home  there  was  a  functionaries'  meet- 
ing held  in  the  fall  of  1049,  and  there  were  in  attendance  at  that 
meeting  a  Lee  Coe 

Mr,  KuNziG.  L-e-e  C-o-e  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Do  you  know  liis  occupation? 

Mr.  Ames.  No,  I  don't.     Dave  Blodgett. 

]Mr.  Kfnzig.  That  is  the  Mr.  Blodgett  who  testified  here  yesterday  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes,  sir.     Carl  Hanson. 

]Mr.  KuxziG.  Do  you  know  his  occupation  or  address,  any  other 
identification  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  No,  I  have  forgotten  what  his  occupation  was.  There 
was  Frances  Capelle,  previously  named,  at  functionaries'  meetings 
at  the  Woods  home  was  also  Kuth  ^  and  Bob  Black ;  previously  named. 
Buddy  Green. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  there  any  names  that  you  know  definitely,  people 
whom  you  knew  to  be  members  of  the  Communist  Party,  whom  you 
have  not  yet  named  this  afternoon? 

Mr.  Ames.  No  ;  I  believe  that  is  all. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  You  testified  you  left  the  party  in  1950,  remained  on 
Ihe  fringe  until  about  1951.  Were  you  reporting  to  the  FBI  until 
1951? 

Mr.  Ames.  We  were. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Did  your  wife  ever  testify  at  any  time? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes,  my  wife  testified  at  the  trials  of  the  California 
commies  in  Los  Angeles.     I  believe  it  was  xVpril  of  1952. 

Mr.  KuNZiG.  Are  there  any  further  questions,  Mr.  Chairman  and 
members  of  the  committee  ? 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Scherer,  do  you  have  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Scherer.  No. 

Mr.  Velde.  Mr.  Doyle? 

Mr.  Doyle.  Yes,  I  have  a  couple.  You  said,  and  I  made  note  of  it — 
it  may  not  be  an  exact  quote,  but  it  is  pretty  close — "we  were  instructed 
to  not  hold  meetings  in  any  one  home  for  security  reasons." 

Mr,  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Why  would  the  Communists  attending  those  meetings 
be  afraid  of  being  discovered  ?  What  would  they  be  afraid  of  ?  Wliat 
were  they  doing  that  was  wrong  in  their  judgment  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  was  at  the  time  that  the  Communist  Party  was 
declared  a  subversive  activity.  That  was  when  they  broke  up  the 
clubs;  they  held  one  club  meeting  a  month.  Previous  to  that  they' 
had  held  them  on  the  average  of  about  twice  a  month  and  in  large 
groups.  The  squad  leaders,  as  they  were  assigned,  they  would  hold 
the  more  or  less  small  meetings  and  have  the  Marxist  readings,  classes, 
and  then  the  squad  leaders  would  meet  once  a  month  with  the  chairmen 
and  the  other  functionaries  of  the  club. 


*  Investigation  has  determined  the  correct  name  as  being  Gladys  Black. 


3410       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Doyle.  May  I  interrupt  to  ask  you  this  question  then :  About 
when  was  this  that  they  were  declared  to  be  subversive^  I  mean  the 
Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  1  believe  that  was  in  1948. 

Mr.  DoTi^.  What  declaration  was  that  to  which  you  refer  that  they 
were  subversive  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  was  published,  I  believe — at  that  time  I  believe  it 
was  Attorney  McGrath,  in  August. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Then  as  I  understand,  your  testimony  is  that  after 
this  declaration  by  United  States  Government  Department  of  Justice, 
if  that  is  it,  at  that  particular  time,  that  the  Communist  Party  in  the 
United  States  was  subversive,  in  its  judgment,  these  people  whom 
you  have  named,  with  some  others  that  you  haven't  named,  began 
holding  secret  meetings  in  order  that  their  manipulations  might  not 
be  discovered  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Doyle.  So  am  1  to  understand  then,  as  far  as  you  know,  every 
person  who  attended  these  meetings  did  so  secretly  and  covertly  and 
with  knowledge  before  they  arrived  there  that  they  should  hold  them 
in  a  secret  manner  ?  ^ 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Doyle.  For  fear  of  being  discovered  to  be  in  violation  of  law 
of  the  United  States? 

Mr.  Ames.    Yes. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Didn't  you  ever  have  a  feeling  that  they  were  wise, 
some  of  them,  to  the  fact  that  you  were  an  undercover  man,  you  and 
your  wife  were,  of  the  FBI  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  No. 

Mr.  Doyle.  They  weren't  that  wise.  They  never  discovered  you  as 
far  as  you  know  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  No. 

Mr.  Doyle.  You  stated  that  they  felt  that  you  and  your  wife  were 
not  part  of  a  hard  core.  I  remember  our  committee  chairman  raised 
that  point  in  a  different  way.  What  do  you  mean  by  the  "hard  core"  ? 
Why  weren't  you  considered  as  members  of  the  hard  core  ?  You  had 
been  membership  chairman,  issued  cards  in  the  party.  How  much 
harder  could  you  get?  Wliat  is  the  difference  between  a  hard  core 
and  whatever  other  core  there  is  in  the  party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  They  felt  that  we  were  shielding  behind  our  civil-service 
jobs. 

Mr.  Doyle.  You  mentioned  the  Berkeley  book  store  being  a  distri- 
bution point  for  the  Communist  Party  literature  of  the  east  bay 
area.  In  other  words,  do  I  understand  from  that  that  they  carried  a 
pretty  good  supply  of  Communist  literature  and  books  and  pamphlets, 
made  efforts  to  sell  them  and  distribute  them  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Doyle.  You  got  your  supply  of  such  subversive  literature  from 
that  store  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Was  that  store  run  by  the  Communist  Party  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  It  was. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Are  you  sure  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  Yes. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3411 

Mr.  Doyle.  How  far  from  the  University  of  California  was  that 
Berkeley  book  store  location,  the  Communist  book  store  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  don't  rightly  know. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Approximately? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  know  it  is  onVan  Croft  Way.  I  have  forgotten  what 
the  exact  address  is. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Do  I  Understand  the  manipulations  of  the  Communist 
Party  in  the  east  bay  area  was  that  they  had  that  as  the  literature 
distribution  point  and  center? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Doyle.  To  which  you  functionaries  in  the  Communist  Party 
went  for  your  supplies  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  correct. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Another  question :  I  am  interested  in  the  IPP  party  as 
you  described  it.  You  said  it  was  the  first  front  of  the  Communist 
JParty. 

Mr.  Ames.  I  said  the  Communist  Party  was  using  it  as  their  front. 

Mr.  Doyle.  As  their  front.  Well,  in  your  judgment  as  a  Commu- 
nist Party  functionary  at  that  time  during  those  years  in  1948  election 
and  in  Alameda  County,  at  least,  was  the  Communist  Party  in  control 
of  the  IPP  party  at  all,  either  in  whole  or  in  part? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  I  couldn't  say. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Your  knowledge  didn't  go  that  far? 

Mr.  Ames.  No. 

Mr.  Doyle.  But  you  know  they  did  put  up  Communists  for  election 
to  certain  public  offices;  one,  for  instance,  to  Congress  in  the  Sixth 
Congressional  District,  an  avowed  Communist,  camouflaged  as  an 
IPP  candidate,  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  Ames.  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Doyle.  I  think  I  know  that  they  did  that  in  other  congressional 
districts  in  California,  too.  I  think  I  have  an  idea  that  they  are  still 
doing  it. 

One  more  question,  Mr.  Chairman. 

I  have  never  met  you  in  my  life  nor  read  anything  about  you,  but  I 
want  to  ask  you  briefly  the  same  question  I  asked  tlie  other  witness 
just  before  you.  I  have  no  idea  what  your  answer  may  be.  He 
claimed  his  constitutional  privilege,  and  of  course  whenever  a  man 
claims  it  in  conscience  and  good  faith,  we  can't  criticize  him  for  it, 
but  you  haven't  claimed  your  constitutional  privilege.  Now,  may 
I  ask  you  under  this  law  under  wMch  we  are  directed  to  operate  as 
Members  of  the  Congress,  part  of  our  obligation  is  to  inquire  into 
facts  which  may  help  us  to  recommend  any  necessary  remedial  legis- 
lation as  regards  subversive  conduct  in  the  United  States,  whether  it 
comes  from  a  foreign  country  or  our  own  land. 

Have  you  any  suggestion  to  this  committee  of  any  field  of  legisla- 
tion in  addition  to  what  is  now  existing  already  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  No,  I  don't. 

Mr.  Doyle.  Well,  let  me  ask  you  this  question,  if  you  have  an  opin- 
ion, and  because  you  ask  the  question  I  don't  want  you  to  give  an 
answer  if  you  have  never  thought  it  through  to  where  you  feel  com- 
fortable in  answering  it :  What  is  your  thought  about  undertaking  to 
outlaw  the  Communist  Party  as  a  conspiratorial  aggregation  ? 

(No  response  from  the  witness.) 


3412       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  EST  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  Doyle.  Well,  now,  as  I  stated,  if  you  really  haven't  thought  it 
through,  I  don't  want  to  urge  you  to  answer  it  because  it  is  a  ditiicult 
question.  You  know,  for  instance,  that  J.  Edgar  Hoover  says  "No." 
If  you  don't  know  that,  I  want  you  to  know  that  that  is  his  public 
statement.  Have  you  any  suggestion  on  it,  or  would  you  rather  not 
answer  it  ? 

Mr.  Ames.  I  would  rather  not  answer  it. 

]Mr.  Doyle.  Very  well. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  want  to  make  sure  the  record  is 
clear  that  this  witness  was  a  Communist  by  direction  of  the  Govern- 
ment and  worked  for  the  Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation.  I  want  to 
be  sure  that  is  clear. 

Mr.  Velde.  Certainly.  I  would  just  like  to  ask  one  question,  if  you 
have  any  opinion  or  if  you  can  estimate  the  number  of  active  Com- 
munist Party  members  in  the  east  bay  area  in  the  year  1951. 

Mr.  Ames.  The  nearest  association  I  had  with  them  from  the  fringe, 
I  would  estimate  to  my  knowledge  about  150. 

Mr.  Velue.  Mr.  Ames,  the  committee  certainly  thanks  you  for  the 
patriotic  work  which  you  have  done,  both  as  an  undercover  agent  for 
the  FBI  and  for  coming  here  to  be  a  witness  before  this  committee  and 
giving  us  the  valuable  information  which  you  have,  which  certainly 
should  help  us  in  considering  and  passing  remedial  legislation  to 
handle  the  problem  of  the  Soviet  conspiracy.  With  the  thanks  of  the 
committee 

]Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Chairman,  we  should  like  to  keep  this  witness 
under  subpena  for  the  present. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  witness  will  be  kept  under  subpena  at  the  present 
time  until  fuither  notified.  You  are  dismissed  at  this  time  with  the 
committee's  thanks. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Charles  Duarte. 

Mr.  Velde.  In  the  testimony  you  are  about  to  give  before  this  sub- 
committee do  you  solemnly  swear  to  tell  the  truth,  the  whole  truth, 
and  nothing  but  the  truth,  so  help  you  God  ? 

Mr.  Duarte.  I  do. 

TESTIMONY  OF  CHARLES  ALERED  DUARTE,  ACCOMPANIED  BY  HIS 

COUNSEL,  RICHARD  GLADSTEIN 

Mr.  KuNZTG.  Would  you  please  state  your  full  name  for  the  record? 

Mr.  Duarte.  Charles  Alfred  Duarte. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  you  spell  it  for  the  stenographer? 

Mr.  Duarte.  D-u-a-r-t-e. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Would  counsel  please  state  his  name  and  office  address 
for  the  record? 

Mr.  Gladstein.  My  name  is  Richard  Gladstein,  240  Montgomery, 
San  Francisco. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Duarte,  when  and  where  were  you  born  ? 

Mr.  DuARi-E.  Oakland,  Calif.,  August  2G,  1912. 

Mr.  KuNzTG.  Your  present  address  is  what? 

Mr.  Duarte.  1005  102d  Avenue,  Oakland. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Wliere  are  you  employed,  sir  ? 

Mr.  Duarte.  The  committee  knows  where  I  am  employed,  Mr. 
Counsel.  The  committee  subpena ed  me  as  "You  are  hereby  com- 
manded to" 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3413 
Mr.  KuNziG.  Your  answer- 


Mr.  DuARTE.  Charles  Diiarte,  president,  Local  6,  ILWU. 

Mr.  KuNZTG.  Then  your  answer  is  that  you  are  president  of  Local 
6,  ILWU,  is  that  correct? 

Mr.  DuARTE.  And  was  subpenaed  as  such,  and  the  committee  knows 
it. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  We  want  to  get  it  on  the  record. 

Mr.  DuARTE.  The  committee  was  correct,  and  I  was  subpenaed. 

Mr.  KuNZTG.  All  rifjht.  Mr.  Duarte,  there  was  testimony  before 
this  committee  by  Mr.  Kosser  a  few  days  ago  as  follows— — 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Duarte  conferred  with  Mr.  Gladstein.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Mr.  Kosser  said : 

There  is  a  person  that  I  worked  with  in  the  warehouseman's  union  by  the 
name  of  Duarte  who  came  down  to  L.  A. 
Question.  Will  you  spell  the  name,  please? 

Mr.  SciiERER.  Just  a  minute.  Mr.  Counsel,  the  witness  can't  hear 
what  you  are  saying.     He  is  listening  to  his  counsel. 

Mr.  Velde.  Does  the  witness  want  to  advise  with  his  counsel? 
(At  this  point  ^Mr.  Duarte  conferred  with  Mr.  Gladstein.) 
Mr.  Duarte.  I  am  sorry. 
Mr.  KuNziG  (continuing  to  read :) 

QrrEsnoN.  Will  you  spell  the  name,  please? 

Answer.  I  think  it  is  D-u-a-r-t-e.  I  worked  with  him ;  I  know  him  as  a  mem- 
ber of  the  Communist  Party.     I  have  been  in  meetings  with  him. 

Question.  Do  you  know  his  first  name? 

Answer.  I  have  forgotten  his  first  name. 

Question.  Can  you  identify  him  more  specifically? 

Answer.  Well,  he  was  an  organizer  when  I  met  him  for  the  International 
Warehousemen's  Union,  and  he  later  became  one  of  the  top  leaders  of  the  ware- 
housemen's union.     I  don't  know  what  he  is  doing  now. 

Question.  Do  you  know  what  nickname  he  was  known  by? 

Answer.  I  think  it  is  "Chili" ;  I  don't  know,  I  have  forgotten. 

Question.  What  was  the  date  upon  which  you  became  acquainted  with  him 
and  knew  him  to  be  a  member  of  the  Communist  Party? 

Answer.  It  was  in  194.3;  194.3  and  then  in  1944. 

Question.  Do  you  know  where  he  resided? 

Answer.  I  don't  know  whether  he  resided  in  Frisco  or  Oakland. 

Question.  Can  you  give  any  further  identifying  information  regarding  him? 

Answer.  Well,  I  was  introduced  to  him  by  one  of  the  wheelhorses  of  the 
Communist  Party  in  the  warehousemen's  union  named  Dawson ;  I  can't  think  of 
his  first  name,  but  he  was  one  of  the  beginners  of  the  Communist  fraction  of  the 
warehousemen's  union,  and  he  is  the  one  who  introduced  me  to  him. 

Let  me  ask,  Mr.  Duarte,  are  yo\}  known  in  addition  to  Charles 
Duarte  by  the  name  of  Chili  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Duarte  conferred  with  Mr.  Gladstein.) 

Mr.  Duarte.  Yes. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  Are  you  the  Charles  "Chili"  Duarte  mentioned  in  the 
testimony  by  Mr.  Rosser? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Duarte  conferred  with  Mr.  Gladstein.-) 

Mr.  Duarte.  Mr.  Chairman,  there  are  a  lot  of  people  named  Rosser. 
Are  you  referring  to  the  Rosser  who  has  a  police  record  in  Los 
Angeles  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  am  referring,  Mr.  Duarte,  to  the  Rosser  who  testi- 
fied here 

Mr.  Duarte.  I  am  trying  to  identify — you  asked  me,  Mr.  Counsel. 
I  am  asking  you  if  this  is  the  Mr.  Rosser  who  has  a  long  police  record 
in  Los  Angeles.     Is  this  the  Rosser  you  referred  to  ? 


3414       COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE  SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  am  referring  to  the  Mr.  Rosser  who  testified  here 
a  few  days  ago.     I  believe  you  know  the  testimony. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Duarte  conferred  with  Mr.  Gladstein.) 

Mr.  ScHERER.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  again  we  should  caution 
counsel.  A  number  of  counsel  have  been  doing  it  repeatedly,  putting 
into  the  witness'  mouth  the  answer  that  he  should  give.  The  job  of 
the  counsel  in  this  case  is  to  advise  the  witness  as  to  his  legal  rights 
and  not  to  testify  for  him. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  suggestion  is  certainly  well  taken. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  And  it  would  be  well  for  the  bar  association  of  this 
county  to  check  into  the  conduct  of  some  of  the  counsel  who  have  ap- 
peared before  this  committee  during  the  last  4  days. 

Mr.  Duarte.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  to  answer,  if  I  might. 
Mr.  Congressman — I  don't  know  your  name. 

Mr.  Scherer.  Scherer  from  Ohio. 

Mr.  Duarte.  Thank  you. 

Mr.  Velde.  I  would  suggest  to  the  committee  counsel  that  the  ques- 
tion be  withdrawn,  and  I  would  like  to  ask  this  question :  Is  the  tes- 
timony which  has  just  been  read  inaccurate  in  any  respect? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Duarte  conferred  with  Mr.  Gladstein.) 

Mr.  Duarte.  Well,  this  could  have  to  be  broken  down,  Mr.  Chair- 
man. I  want  to  go  back  to  what  the  Congressman  said.  I  thought 
I  was  entitled  to  counsel  here.     I  want  to  know 


Mr.  Velde.  Let  us  break  it  down  this  way :  Have  you  ever  been  a 
member  of  the  Communist  Party  ? 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Duarte  conferred  with  Mr.  Gladstein.) 

Mr.  Duarte.  Mr.  Chairman,  since  you  are  not  allowing  me  to 
answer  questions,  I  resjDectfully — let  me  preface  it.  I  want  to  state 
that  as  an  American  that  I  recognize  that  this  committee  is  a  duly 
authorized  committee  of  the  House  of  Representatives  and  has  cer- 
tain powers  and  duties,  and  I  respect  those  powers  and  duties,  but 
this  committee  should  recognize  that  as  an  American  I  have  certain 
rights  and  privileges. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  committee  certainly  does  recognize  that. 

Mr.  Duarte.  Based  on  those  rights  and  privileges  I  respectfully 
decline  to  answer  that  question.  I  want  to  tell  you  my  reasons  why, 
based  on  the  fifth  amendment.  After  seeing  what  can  be  done  to 
a  man — and  I  pick  one  specifically,  Robert  Condon,  a  Congressman — 
1  am  not  going  to  run  the  risk 

Mr.  Velde.  That  is  not  a  subject  matter  before  you.  There  is  no 
question  pending  about  him.  The  question  was  about  you  and  your 
past  conduct.  You  have  refused  to  answer  that  question  on  the 
basis  of  the  fifth  amendment. 

Now,  may  I  ask  you,  are  you  jDresently  a  member  of  the  Communist 
Party? 

Mr.  Duarte.  Same  answer,  same  grounds,  but  I  want  to  make  clear, 
Mr.  Chairman 

Mr.  Velde.  Is  there  any  reason  why  this  witness  should  further 
be  retained  ? 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No,  sir,  no  further  questions. 

Mr.  Duarte.  Just  a  minute. 

Mr.  Velde.  Any  questions,  Mr.  Doyle  ? 

Mr.  Doyle.  No  questions. 


COMMUNIST  ACTIVITIES  IN  THE   SAN  FRANCISCO  AREA      3415 

Mr.  DuARTE.  I  thought  that  the  Congressman  made  the  statement 
that  if  you  answered  the  question,  took  the  fifth  amendment  in  good 
faith,  you  would  get  some  courtesy  here. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  witness  is  dismissed,  and  I  would  hesitate  to  have 
you  removed,  Mr.  Witness. 

(At  this  point  Mr.  Duarte  conferred  with  Mr.  Gladstein.) 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  no  further  witnesses  today,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Gladstein.  Mr.  Chairman,  when  you  say  "dismissed,"  do  you 
mean  he  is  excused  ? 

IMr.  Yelde.  Excused. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  I  have  no  further  witnesses. 

Mr.  Duarte.  Wliat  do  I  do  with  the  second  subpena  ?  I  have  been 
subpenaed  twice,  Mr.  Counsel. 

Mr.  KuNziG.  No  further  witnesses,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Mr.  Velde.  The  witness  has  been  excused. 

Mr.  Duarte.  I  just  asked,  Mr.  Chairman,  because  I  was  subpenaed 
twice.  I  thought  I  was  going  to  come  back  on  the  next  one.  I  have 
two  subpenas. 

Mr.  ScHERER.  I  move  we  adjourn. 

Mr.  Velde.  At  this  time  the  committee  will  stand  in  adjournment 
until  9 :  30  tomorrow  morning. 

(Whereupon,  at  4 :  10  p.  m.,  the  hearing  was  recessed,  until  9 :  30 
a.  m.,  Saturday,  December  5, 1953.) 


INDEX 


Individuals 

Faea 

Alexander,    Herschel 3403 

Ames,  Peggy 3405 

Ames,  William  Donald 3400-3412  (testimony) 

Ames,  Mrs.  William  Donald 3401 

Andersen,    George 8355-3367 

Attarian,  Aram 8377-3379   (testimony) 

Barnes,  Carroll 3371-3372    (testimony) 

Barlow,    Edward 3382 

Barlow,  Elizabeth 3382,  3403 

Baroway,  Leo — 3403 

Batiste,  Calvin 3382 

Benet,  James  Walker  II 3892-3400  (testimony^ 

Benet,  William  Rose_^ 3893 

Berkeley,  Martin 3393 

Black,  Gladys 3382,  3406,  3409 

Black,  Robert  (Bob) 8379,  3380-3384  (testimony),  3386,  8406,  3409 

Blodgett,  Charles  David 3350, 

3352, 3354,  3359,  3360,  3370-3872,  3875,  3378,  3379,  3883, 3409 

Bodkin,   Wesley 3400 

Bowen,  Mildred . 3351-3353  (testimony) 

Bridges,  Harry 3300 

Brodsky,  Mr 3383,  3884 

Browder,  Earl 3393,  3899 

Browder,  William 3393,  8399 

Brown,    Bimbo , 3403 

Busk,  Charlie ^ 3383 

Calloway,  Marie 3882 

Calloway,  Warner . 3882 

Canright,  Marjorie__ 3388,  3384 

Capelle,    Frances 3382 

Capelle,   Roger 8382 

Chown,  Paul 3372 

Clark,  Tom . 8398,  3399 

Clifford,  Bill 3406 

Coe,  Lee 3409 

Condon.    Robert 3414 

Crockett,  Bill . 3401,  3402 

Crockett,  Rosalie ^ 8401 

Dawson 8413 

Dickerson.  Kathleen 3401 

Duarte,  Charles  Alfred . 3412-3415   (testimony) 

Edwards,  George 8406 

Eisenhower,  President 8388 

Eisler,  Joe 33S2 

Eisler,   Marge 3382 

Elson,    Henry 3353-3355 

Fagerhaugh,  Ole 3353,  3367-3371  (testimony) 

Gilliam,  James 8402 

Gilliam,    Louise 3402 

Gladstein,  Richard 3861,  3412-3415 

Green,  Walter  (Buddv) 3407,  3409 

Grover,    Bertha 3382 

Halpern,  Ray 3382 

Hanson.  Carl 3382,  3409 

3417 


3418  INDEX 

Page 

Hee,  Katlileen  Griffin 3349,  3350-3351   (testimonv) 

Hill,  Dickson 3354,  3355,  3372,  3385.  3389 

Hoover,   J.  Edsar 3412 

Hultsren,  Ruth 3400.  3407 

Hultffren,  Wayne 340G,  3407 

Kalman,  Bernice 3382,  3383.  3407 

Kalman,    Eugene - 3382 

Kalman.    Herb 33S2 

Kalman,  Ted 3382,  .3407 

Kalman,    Teresa 3382 

Keller.   Mr 3402 

Kennedy,  Elisa  Manfredi 34(X) 

Lauirliery.  Willie 3382,  3403 

Lehman,   Fanny 3407 

Lehman,  Lloyd 3407,  3409 

Levin.  Edward :'400 

Lindsmith,   Rosalind 3-102 

Lowe.    Bill 3408 

Manley,    Katrina 3382 

Manley,    Jack 3382 

Marrow,    Ozzo 3382 

May,  Ruth  McGovney 3382 

Mays.    Andrew 3382 

McFadden,  James 3403,   3409 

McFadden,    Jim 3382 

McGrath,   Attorney 3410 

Melia,  Joseph   (Joe) 3353-3355   (testimony).  .3403 

Miller,  Hugh  B 3380-3384 

Morris,  Luther 3407 

Nelson,    Steve .3398 

Neville,    Bob .3407 

Newman,  Edward 3372-3374,  3.377-3379 

Olshausen,  Geor  e .3384-3.392 

Parsons,    Frank 3382 

Peters,    Hazel .3383 

Price,   Jake 3402 

Price,    Marge 3402 

Riggs,  John  N 3400 

Roberson,  Doris  Brin  Walker  {see  also  Doris  Brin  Walker) 3384- 

3392  (testimony) 

Rosser,  Lou 3413.  3414 

Sabinson,  Lee 3393,  .3399 

Schlipf.  Paul 3355-3367   (testimony) 

Schneider,  Isidor 3393.  3399 

Schneiderman,    William .3408 

Sharpe,  Edith 3382,  3408 

Smith,    Eleanor 3382 

Spector  3388 

Speiser,  Lawrence .3351-33.53,  3371-3372,  3374-3377 

Spiecer,  Morgan  V 33.50-.3.3.51 

Starvis,    Loretta 3408 

Thompson,  Jim 3393 

Thompson,  Leila 3.382.  3408 

Thompson.  Ray 3382.  3406 

Thompson,    Robert 3393 

Thorner,   Molly .3402 

Tobey,  Clarence 3408.  .3409 

Tobey.  Florence 3408,  3409 

Treuhaft,  Robert  E .3367-3371,  3.384 

Truman,   Mr .3.388 

Twining , .3.388 

Wachter,    Billie 3409 

Wachter,    Saul 3409 

Walker,  Doris  Brin  (see  also  Doris  Brin  Walker  Roberson) 3383,  .3.384 

Walker.    Freddie 3382 

Ward,  Douglas  WJiitney 3374-3377   (testimony) 


INDEX  3419 

Page 

AVarwick.  Gertrude 33S2,  3409 

Wliite,    Harry   Dexter 3388 

Whitney,  Anita 3382,  3383,  3408 

Williams,    Bill 3402 

Williams,    Fred 3382 

AVilliams,  Joy 3372-3374  (testimony) 

Wood,  Ida 3409 

Wood,    James 3409 

Yanisli,  Ann 3382,  3408 

Yanish,  Nat 3382,  3408 

Younce,    Dick 3382 

Organizations 

Abraham  Lincoln  Battalion 3398 

Abraham  Lincoln  Brigade ^-  3398,  3399 

American  Civil  Liberties  Union 3390 

American  Civil  Liberties  Union  of  Northern  California 3351,  3371 

Army  Air  Forces 3404 

California  CIO  Council 3356 

Civil  Rights  Congress 3403 

Congress  of  Industrial  Organizations 3356,  3357,  3359,  3365,  3306,  3401 

Department  of  Justice 3410 

Federal  Bureau  of  Investigation 3354, 

3355,  3372.  3382,  3383,  3401,  3402,  3406.  3409,  3410,  3412 

Independent  Progressive  Party 3403,  3405-3408,  3411 

International    Brigades 3398 

International  Longshoremen's  and  Warehousemen's  Union,  Local  6 3413 

Norway  Hall,  Oakland 3406,  3408 

Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the  Commvuiist  Party 3361,  3363 

Political  Affairs  Committee  of  the  Communist  Party  of  Alameda  County 3350, 

3352,  3354,  3360,  3362,  3370 

Supreme  Court 3352,  3353,  3388 

University  of  California  at  Berkeley 3411 

Young  Communist  League ^ 3408 

Young  Democrats  of  California,  Inc 3400 

Young  Democrats  of  San  Francisco,  Inc 3400 

Publications 

National  Guardian 3383 

'New  Masses 3393,  3399 

Oakland  Tribune 3381,  3382 

Peoples  World 3376,  3403,  3407 

San    Francisco   Chronicle 3388 

San  Francisco  Examiner 3386 

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