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INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
\
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMmTTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIYITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 74, 85TH CONGRESS
JULY 31, AUGUST 1, 2, 5, AND 6, 1957
PART 10
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 74, 85TH CONGRESS
JULY 31, AUGUST 1, 2, 5, AND 6, 1957
PART 10
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
8B330 WASHINGTON : 1957
Boston Public Library
SuperintCTT^pnt of Documents
NOV 18 1957
SELEC5T COMMITTEE ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR
MANAGEMENT FIELD
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas, Chairman
IRVING M. IVES, New York, Vice Chairman
JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
SAM J. ERVIN, Jr., North Carolina BARRY GOLDVS^ATER, Arizona
PAT McNAMARA, Michigan . CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska
ROBERT F. Kennedy, Chief Counsel
Rdth Young Watt, Chief Clerk
n
CONTENTS
Area: New York (Teamsters Paper Locals)
Pag«
Appendix 3969
Implementation of opening statement:
Robert F. Kennedy 3595
Testimony of —
Berger, Sam 3673
Boyar, Louis 3909
Chernuchin, Sidney 3812
Chester, Max 3935
Claude, Paul 3920
Conoval, Samuel 3802
Ehrlich, Morris 3817
Fine, Jerome 3831
Garren, Murray 3826
Gasster, Henry 3746, 3749
Getlan, Sam 3843, 3851,3856
Goldberg, Abraham 3734
Holt, Milton 3876
Kazansky, Philip 3871
Krieger, Harold . 3945
Lehrer, Stanley 3883
May, Walter R 3851
McNiflf, John 3756
Montalvo, Mario 3792
Nunez, Bertha 3781, 3790
Pope, Louis 3914
Ray, Theodore 3719, 3751
SegHn, Stanley 3960
Tierney, Paul J 3745,3749,3840,3849
Topazio, Anthony 3724
Washburn, Lester 3683, 3710
Zakman, Samuel 3636
EXHIBITS
1. First application for charter of affiliation for Local 102, In- ducedon Appears
ternational Union, United Automobile Workers of Amer- page on page
ica, dated September 12, 1950 3644 3969
2. Second application for charter for local 102 dated April 23,
1951 3649 3970-
3. Schedule of loans made to local 102 from unreported source 3971
from September 1950 through December 1951, totaling
$21,380.39 3660 3972
4. Resolution adopted by the executive board of Local 512,
AMPUC-A. F. of L., on January 7, 1954 3670 (*)
5. Letter from UAW-AFL Amalgamated Union Local 102,
dated November 10, 1951, signed by Johnny Dioguardi,
president, to Anthony Doria, secretary-treasurer, United
Automobile Workers, AFL, concerning issuance of char-
ter to local 138 3745 3973
6. Labor or<Tanization registration form filed by Local 649,
United Automobile Workers, AFL, dated March 18, 1953,
and si'2;ned bv John Dioguardi, president 3745 3974-
7. Official application for charter for Local 198, UAW-AFL, 3975
dated Januarv 5, 1953, signed by Henry Gasster, presi-
dent '_ 3748 3976
See footnote at end of Contents, p. v.
m
IV CONTENTS
7A, Letter dated January 5, 1953, to Anthony Doria, United jj^^j.^.
Automobile Workers of America, enclosing applicationduced on Appears
for Local 198, UAW-AFL, and signed by John Dioguardi, page on page
Amalgamated Union Local 649 3749 (**)
8. Pamphlet issued by the Association of Catholic Trade
Unionists describing some typical cases handled by the
association 3792 (*)
9. Contract dated July 5, 1955, between Amalgamated Union
Local 649, U AW, and Sealtite Quilting Corp 3835 (*)
10. Canceled check No. 2613, dated August 10, 1955, payable
to Amalgamated Union Local No. 649 in the amount of
$1,000 from Sealtite Quilting Corp 3836 3977
11. Souvenir journal of Amalgamated Union Local No. 649 with
a one-page advertisement of Sealtite Quilting Corp 3836 (*)
12. Amalgamated Union Local 649 souvenir journal advertising
contract 3836 3978
13. Application for charter, dated November 8, 1955, by local
275 3840 3979
14. Letter dated December 1, 1955, from local 258 to Joint
Council 16, requesting that the officers of local 258 be
seated as delegates to joint council 16 3842 3980
15. Letter dated February 2, 1956, from Harry Davidoff,
secretary- treasurer of local 256 to Joint Council 16 3847 (**)
16. Letter dated February 2, 1956, from Harry Davidoff, secre-
tary-treasurer to joint council 16 3848 (**)
17. Document entitled "Local 228" which contains certain in-
formation requested by the Permanent Subcommittee on
Investigation from Anthony Doria 3853 (**)
18. Labor organization registration form filed by local 228 3855 3981-
3982
19. Labor organization registration form filed by local 228 3856 3983-
3984
20- Letter dated February 2, 1956, to joint council 16 signed by
Joseph Curcio, secretary-treasurer, local 269 3873 (**)
21. Letter dated February 2, 1956, to joint council 16 signed by
Joseph Curcio, secretary-treasurer, local 269, certifjang
Philip Kazansky eligible to vote in joint council election. _ 3874 (**)
22. Contract dated August 18, 1955, between Equitable Re-
search Associates and Auto Glass Dealers Association,
Inc 3890 (*)
23. Contract dated September 1, 1955, by and between Local
Union 227, UAW, AFL, and the Auto Glass Dealers
Association 3892 (*)
24A. Check dated October 18, 1955, payable to Equitable Re-
search Associates Corp. from Auto Glass Dealers Asso-
ciation (labor relations fund account) in the amount of
$499.80 with accompanying letter 3901 3985-
3986
24B. Check dated December 5, 1955, payable to Equitable Re-
search Associates Corp. from Auto Glass Association
(labor relations fund) in the amount of $199.92 and ac-
companying letter : 3901 3987-
3988
240. Check dated January 17, 1956, payable to Equitable Re-
search Associates Corp. from Auto Glass Dealers Asso-
ciation (labor relations fund account) in the amount of
$108.27 and accompanying letter 3901 3989-
3990
25. Notice of the Auto Dealers Association, Inc., dated Sept. 6,
1955, signed by Frank Lurrey, president, Stanley Lehrer,
counsel and Alorris S. Gorman, executive secretary 3903 (**)
26. Letter dated May 11, 1956, addressed to Auto Glass Deal-
ers Association, signed by Arthur Santa Maria, United
Automobile Workers Union, Local 227 3907 3991
See footnotes at end of Contents, p. v.
CONTENTS
Intro-
27. Letter dated May 22, 1956, addressed to Local 227, Unitedduced on Appears
Auto Workers Union, re Auto Glass Dealers Association, ^'^^^ °^ p^^®
Inc., signed b}^ Stanley Lehrer 3907 3992
28. Sticker reading "This is a Union Shop, Independent Auto
Workers Union lOlA" 3916 3993
29 A. Business card: Independent Auto Workers Union, Local
101-A, 363 East 149th Street, New York, N. Y., James
Dodge, business agent 3917 3994
29B. Business card: Independent Auto Workers Union, Local
101-A, 363 East 149th Street, New York, Alfred Naft,
business agent 3917 3994
29C. Business card: Independent Auto Workers Union, Local
lOOA, 363 East 149th Street, New York, Jack Sicari, busi-
ness agent 3917 3994
29D. Business card: Independent Auto Workers Union, Local
101 A, 363 East 149th Street, New York, Charles DiSilvio,
president 3917 3994
30. Contract form of Independent Auto W^orkers Union 101 A- - 3918 (*)
31. Contract dated September 27, 1954, between Local 405,
R. C. I. A. and Paragon Brass employer 3927 (*)
32 A. Check of Paragon Brass, dated September 27, 1954, payable
to "cash" signed by Paul Claude, in the amount of $215- . 3929 3995
32B. Check No. 2346 of Paragon Brass, dated October 18, 1954,
payable to "cash" signed by Paul Claude, in the amount
of$215 3929 3996
32C. Check No. 2373 of Paragon Brass, dated November 1, 1954,
payable to "cash" signed by Paul Claude, in the amount
of$200 3929 3997
33. Check No. 1516 of Albert Oilman Associates, dated Febru-
ary 9, 1955, payable to "cash" signed bv Albert Filman in
the amount of $220 3929 3998
34. Check No. 229 of Paragon Brass dated April 1, 1955, payable
to "cash" signed by Paul Claude, in the amount of $130._ - 3931 3999
35. Postdated check dated April 7, 1955, payable to "cash"
signed by Max Chester, in the amount of $130 3931 4000
36A. Postdated check dated April 6, 1955, payable to "cash"
signed by Max Chester in the amount of $55 3932 4001
36B. Postdated check dated April 13, 1955, payable to "cash"
signed by Max Chester in the amount of $55 3932 4002
36C. Postdated 'check dated April 20, 1955, payable to "cash"
signed by Max Chester in the amount of $55 3932 4003
36D. Postdated check dated April 27, 1955, payable to "cash"
signed by Max Chester in the amount of $55 3932 4004
37. Labor organization registration form filed by Amalgated
Local 355, UAW-AFL, dated December 28, 1953 3949 4005-
4006
37A. Letter dated December 23, 1953, addressed to the Bureau of
Labor Standards signed by Harold Krieger, enclosing
forms 3949 4007
38. Official apphcation for charter for local 224, dated September
15,1953. 3962 4008
39. Apphcation for charter for local 269 of the teamsters, dated
Noyember 8, 1955 3964 4009
40. Letter dated December 1, 1955, addressed to joint council 16
signed by Abraham Brier, secretary-treasurer. Employees
Union Local 362 3966 4010
40A. Letter dated February 2, li»56, addressed to joint council 16,
signed by Abraham Brier, local 362 certifying Stanley
Seglin eligible to vote in joint council election 3966 4011
Proceedings of —
July 31, 1957 3591
August 1, 1957 3683
August 2, 1957 3753
Au<4ust 5, 1957 3839
August 6, 1957 3883
*May be found in the files of the select committee.
**May be found in the printed record.
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGE3IENT FIELD
WEDNESDAY, JULY 31, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities in
the Labor and IVIanagement Field,
Washington^ D. C.
The select committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolution
74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room, Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senators John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Irving
M. Ives, Republican, New York ; John F. Kennedy, Democrat, Massa-
chusetts; Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat, North Carolina; Pat Mc-
Namara, Democrat, Michigan; Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South
Dakota ; Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona ; and Carl T. Curtis,
Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F? Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, assistant chief counsel ; Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel ; Pierre
E. G. Salinger, investigator ; Robert E. Dunne, assistant counsel ; and
Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairiman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the committee present at the convening of the session
were Senators McClellan, Ives, Ervin, Kennedy, Mundt, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. "\Ye are beginning a new series of public hearings
this morning and the Chair desires to make a brief statement relative
thereto.
From the inception of this committee, one of its primary objectives
has been to investigate racketeer and criminal operations in the labor-
management field.
This committee and its staff have been engaged in a long and inten-
sive investigation into hoodlum activities in some unions. Hundreds
of witnesses have been interviewed — union records have been examined
where they could be found — many of these records have been de-
stroyed and the facts had to be reconstructed in other ways, from bank
accounts, employers' records, and so forth.
We have had excellent cooperation and assistance from the city,
State, and Federal agencies. I wish to particularly thank District
Attorney Frank Hogan and his staff' in New York City for the assist-
ance they have extended to the committee, and I commend liim for the
fine job iie has done in prosecuting labor racketeers.
"V-VTiile I usually refrain from commenting on the nature of the evi-
dence in advance of the hearings, a preliminary study of the evidence
3591
3592 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
gathered by the committee staff in this case, I believe, indicates that 1
should make some comment as this series of hearings begins.
In my judgment, the evidence will disclose that hoodlums and
racketeers came into the labor picture with the aid and assistance of
certain high level union officials.
I think before we are through with the hearings it will have been
demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that these hoodlums were not in the
field of labor for the benefit of the laboring man. It is apparent they
were enabled to operate through the grant of union charters — and
these charters were used as instruments for the commission of extor-
tion from employers.
But no small part of the picture is the victimization of the union
membership.
The initiation fees and dues of members constituted a steady source
of income for these hoodlums and their henchmen who were put on
the union payrolls. It provided an income for the mob that worked
for Johnny Dioguardi and Antonio (Tony Ducks) Corallo.
The racketeers, in effect, sold out the union members and gained the
cooperation of management in organization of its plants by giving
them easy, or so-called sweetheart contracts which contained little or
no benefit to employees.
It will be shown that the illiterate Puerto Rican and Negro laborers
were misused by both management and labor. In some instances, the
union contracts called for only the legal minimum wage which the
employers had to pay anyhow under the law. In some of the plants,
the employer paid the union dues and welfare payments without
the knowledge of the employees. And the employees did not even
know they were in the union. In other instances, employees gained
little or nothing by being members of the union. The dues of tliese
unions' members fattened the pocketbooks of racketeers and their
henchmen.
To the hoodlum, the union charter is a private certificate to do busi-
ness. The hoodlum often lays out his own money to finance the start
of the organization and then later reimburses himself many times over
from the "profits," that is, the initiation fees and dues.
One of the interesting facets we expect to show is that at times the
hoodlums used Communists or former Communists because they were
excellently trained organizers and knew all the tricks to get member-
ship.
The unions gave the racketeers political power ; they use the unions
to extort money ; they fleece their members ; they have a strong impact
on the economics of our industry and can make or break small em-
ployers by their tactics.
The question arises as to why certain labor leaders want racketeers
as local union heads. The reasons are twofold :
First, racketeers, because of their ruthlessness, toughness, et cetei-a,
are good organizers, can gain an increase in membership, can get em-
ployers to enter into contracts, can bring increased income to the in-
ternationals by the payment of per capita dues.
Second, with the help of the hoodums who are loyal only to their
labor bosses and not to the workingman, these labor bosses are enabled
to get control of local councils and federations with the help of racket-
eer locals, and thus control a large geographical area.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3593
For example, we expect in this instance there will be evidence to
show that Mr. James Hoffa, through the help of racketeers, supported
John CRourke, who souo;ht and did obtain control over joint
council No. 16 of the New York area, the biggest and richest labor
area in the comitry.
The joint council is important because of its policymaking function,
the centralization of power in the hands of a small group, its control
over the grants of charters, and the right to strike, et cetera.
In addition, there will be evidence to show that Hoffa was going to
tie up with the International Longshoremen's Association of New
York, a union which liad been kicked out of the AFL because of its
control by racketeei-s.
Thus, with control of joint council No. 16 and the International
Longshoremen's Association, Hoffa would have a stranglehold over
the port of New York. The next step would be the entire eastern
seaboard and the St. Lawrence seaway.
The economic factors involved are tremendous. Such power placed
in the hands of persons affiliated with racketeers is a danger to the
welfare of the Nation.
While we have labor-racketeering provisions in our laws, it appears
they are not adequate to prevent racketeer control of unions. These
hearings, we hope, will serve to throw a searchlight on racket opera-
tions, and inform not only the Congress but also the labor fraternity
and the general public as to how the racketeers gain control of unions,
and the evils that can result fi'om such control. It is only by gather-
ing tlie facts and by com]iletely understanding the manner in which
the racketeers operate that we can hope to provide legislation to
prevent abuses.
Preliminary to hearing the Avitnesses, I will ask Mr. Kennedy, be-
cause of the complexity of the case, to present and explain some charts
which have been made up under his direction.
As Mr. Kennedy proceeds to present these charts and explain them,
so as to put the inquiry into its proper perspective from the beginning,
his remarks will not be testimony but simply an implementation of
this opening statement of the Chair, and therefore he will not be
placed under oath.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I want to commend you for that ex-
cellent statement. It covers very thoroughly what we intend to do,
and gives the public a good idea of what the problem is with which
we are faced.
Now, before Mr. Kennedy explains his charts, I would like to ask
him some questions, or at least one question.
How many years has this racketeering on its present scale been
going on in New York (^ity or New York State ?
Mr. Kennedy. I think many of the racketeers and hoodlums came
into the union movement starting back in 1950, Senator Ives, but I
think there has been racketeering in the labor movement up in New
York for many, many years.
Senator Ives. How many years would you say ?
Mr. Kennedy. Certainly through the 1930's.
Senator Ives. Through the 193(rs?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Senator Ives. The reason I asked the question, it happens that in
1938, and through 1946, I was chairman of the joint legislative com-
3594 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
mittee in New York State on industrial and labor conditions.
While now and then we had brought to our attention a serious rack-
eteering situation which we went after and which ultimately was ex-
posed and taken care of, we never had anything of the magnitude we
are now investigating.
Do you think that in the 1930's it was that way ?
Mr. Kennedy. Certainly in 1935 through 1939 you had great diffi-
culties in New York City.
Senator Ives. That is why the committee was set up.
Mr. Kennedy. I think it lessened after Mr. Dewey's work in New
York City.
Senator Ives. I think we helped to lessen it some.
Mr. Kennedy. I am sure of that, Senator, and I think that since
1950, particularly after the drive was made on bookmakers by Tom
Murphy in New York City in 1950, many of the people that had
been in bookmaking turned to other sources of income, and a lot of
them went into this labor-union movement and tried to get charters
in order to organize employees.
Senator Ives. Then you really think that this racketeering move-
ment in the labor movement itself has reached the proportions which
it now has only since 1950?
Mr. Kennedy. I would think so, and again with the exception of
those years.
Senator Ives. I wondered if I had missed something over the years
and I did not think I had.
Mr. Kennedy. You are right, Senator.
Senator Ives. Thank you.
The Chairman. Are there any other Senators who want to make
a statement?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I have an opening statement here
which supplements one aspect that the chairman's statement touched
upon.
I think this hearing is going to be somewhat different from any we
have held up to date for an essential reason, which I shall discuss in
this opening statement.
I do not know just what individuals are going to be involved in this
hearing ultimately, nor which unions, but involved here is a mechanism
which is fraught with peril to the American people, as I see it.
As these hearings progress, I think it will become evident to the
American people that thousands of honest, industries workingmen
and women in the New York City area have, because of a lack of
democratic procedures in their unions, been subjected to dictatorial
powers of a group of racketeers and unscrupulous labor leaders.
This is indeed a sad commentary on our way of life when the work-
ingman must depend for his livelihood on the whims and fancies of
some of these people who will be appearing before this committee.
We in this coimtry have always prided ourselves on our free society
and on our system of free enterprise, but we most assuredly cannot
say that these working people are truly free. It was not too long
ago that the oppressed and downtrodden from foreign countries mi-
grated to our shores to free themselves from the shackles of tyranny.
However, we find that within the great framework of our free society,
we today have a dictatorship rivaling the ones faced by these people
before.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3595
We as part of the free world, are highly perturbed, and rightfully
so, about the Communist menace both from inside and outside our
shores. Yet we shall be witnessing in the next few weeks a form of
tyranny unfolding which in the long run offers to Communist con-
spirators an opportunity to paralyze our defense establishments and
our offensive striking powers.
In fact, if we permit a situation to prevail whereby an unscrupulous
cell of powerful hoodlums can tie up our transportation systems and
close down our factories we will be making a mockery of our entire
program of civilian defense.
And it is this point which I wish to emphasize for those following
these hearings, because here I think is something different, and some-
thing unique, and something highly dangerous insofar as the freedoms
of our country are concerned.
Foreign agents or Communist saboteurs by gaining control of this
unchecked power to paralyze America could go far toward destroy-
ing our war potential and our capacity of self-defense. No multi-
billion dollar program of overseas military aid could offset the dangers
we nourish at home by permitting conditions like these to prevail.
It has been traditional in this country that we have always been
apprehensive of an overconcentration of power in the hands of a few.
Such unbridled power coupled with irresponsibility can lead only to
disaster.
I ask that our fellow citizens envision with me as these hearings
proceed, what a quick transfer from the hands of a few hoodlums into
the hands of a few Communists for 30 dirty pieces of silver could
mean to the entire country and our capacity to defend ourselves.
So, I for one, Mr. Chairman, hope that the Congress of the United
States through these hearings will be enabled to recommend specific
legislation to rectify once and for all those monstrous deficiencies in
our laws which permit such conditions to exist, and which in this kind
of world imperil all of those who love freedom.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Mundt.
Do any other Senators have any comment ?
Thank you too, Senator Ives.
All right, with the statement previously made by the Chair, Mr.
Kennedy, the chief counsel, will proceed to explain the charts that
have been prepared by the committee so that we may get this problem
in proper perspective as we begin the hearings.
IMPLEMENTATION OF OPENING STATEMENT BY ROBERT F.
KENNEDY
Mr. Kennedy. As you have stated, Mr. Chairman, these hearings
will be concerned with hoodlums and racketeers coming into the labor
union movement. Now, we are going to trace during these series of
hearings how they came into the labor union movement, and where
they came from, and what their practices have been and what their
effect has been on the individual member of the labor union, and what
the effect has been on management or the industry, and what has been
the effect on the community as a whole.
We feel that this is more than just a local problem, that it is a com-
munity problem. We have found that this same pattern is not unique
with New York City, but that based on our preliminary study that
we have made in other large communities throughout the country
3596 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
that the same type of thing is going on this very day. "We feel that
it would be important if the racketeers or hoodlums took over a union,
eA^en if they took over a local union. It is important for the membei's
of that union, and it is important for the industry in which these
people work.
But we tliink it is far more important because the union that is
involved in these hearings is the teamsters union, and it is not only
the largest union, about 1.5 million members — but there is no organi-
zation, union or business, that has a greater elt'ect on the community
life in this country, a greater effect on our economy than the teamsters
union. They control the means of transportation. They deliver the
milk, and the food to homes, and they make pickups and deliveries to
hotels and businesses.
If the teamsters ^et into the iiands of the wrong people, then the
economy of the country can suffer greatly.
I would like to show you a chart now concerning joint council 16
in New York City, which is the biggest ruling hody of the teamsters
in New York City, and it is the group about which these hearings
will be centered.
The CTTAiR]\rAN. What comi:)Oses a council ?
Mr. Kennedy. "Well, the council in New York City is made up of
approximately 58 different teamster locals. There are approximately
125,000 teamsters in those 58 locals. When a local is chartered, it is
obligated to aiBliate with the joint council.
The CiiAiRisrAN. The council controls the charters, so when a new
local is formed, it has to come to the council to get its charter and
thus become associated with the council.
Mr. Kennedy. No. "What happens is the international grants the
charter, but once the charter is granted the local union must affiliate
with the joint council. It has been a procedure in the past that prior
to the international granting the charter, they clear through the joint
council, which is the ruling body in that particular area. That is one
of the important things of the joint council.
I would like to stress, Mr. Chairman, and it is about the joint
council that these hearings and the control of the joint council that
these hearings will be concerned.
Now this is a map of the New York City. These are the docks here
in red, and these are the airports. Newark Airport and LaGuardia
and the International Airport. All of the goods that come in here
to the docks must be trucked out of the docks. They have to be trucked
to their various localities wherever those goods are destined for.
Into the ]>ort of New York, in 1055, came 191,551,291 tons of cargo.
It is 20 percent of all of the cargo that comes into the United States;
comes into the port of New York.
Once it gets to the ports it has to be trucked out.
So once again the truckers have conti-ol of that.
The goods that come into the various airports around New York
City, Newark Airport, and LaGusu'dia Airport, and Newark Inter-
national Aii'port, once they arrive there, once again truckers have to
pick it up. and take the goods where they are destined.
The railroads for the most part, the main railroad that brings goods
into New York City comes in here to Hoboken, and unloads there, and
the goods are then barged across into Manhattan, and from there
once again the goods have to be taken l)y truck and shipped to the
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3597
various areas, or if it stops here they have to be taken by truck and
shipped nortli.
So the truckei^ have an important and integral part, a key posi-
tion in the New York area through the fact that they have control
over the shipping that comes into New York City and control over
the airport. If that gets into the wrong hands, of course, there can
be a stranglehold over New York City.
Now, controlling all of this, this operation, is joint council 16. That
is the joint council that we were discussing, and that is the one that is
made up of some 58 locals and some 125,000 members.
The joint council 16, Mr. Chairman, is the one that sets policy.
Now, these are surrounding — here are some of the matters that joint
council 16 controls. For instance, the meat shipments : the joint coi a-
cil 16 with one of the teamsters locals having control over meat ship-
ments, they have to look to joint council 16 for their policy.
They control fruit and vegetable shipments, drugstore deliveries,
garbage trucks, newspaper trucks. The control of joint council 16 as
far as the policy of all of these locals is concerned is paramount. Its
importance is not only the fact that the joint council 16 controls truck-
ing done by the 58 different locals in New York City, but they have a
great control over all other unions in New York City.
The Chairman. Without objection, the Chair is going to order
that chart printed in the record, at this point, so that we may be
able to follow it and those who read the record may be able to follow
and know exactly what we are discussing as you point this out on the
chart.
(The chart referred to follows:)
Services Contkolled by Joint Council 16, International Brotherhood of
Teamsters, New York, N. Y.
Air-express trucks Department-store deliveries
Meat shipments Auto salesmen
All trucking from ships (191,551,291 of Garbage trucks
cargo through New York in 1955) Lumber trucks
Tobacco drivers Ambulance drivers
Egg packers and graders Milk deliveries
Furniture drivers Breweries
All trucking from airports Steel trucking
Moving vans Newspaper trucks
Warehouse workers Jukebox installations
Car washers Service-station attendants
Drug and chemical industry warehouses Parking attendants
IMagazine deliveries Railway express trucks
Bread deliveries All trucking from railroads
Armored-car drivers Fruit and vegetable shipments
Clothing drivers Radio and TV equipment shipments
Grocery drivers Sanitary-truck drivers
Ice-cream drivers Dry-cleaning deliveries
Gas and oil trucks Drugstore deliveries
Hearse drivers Some city employees
Coal trucks Flower-market drivers
Senator Mundt, I suggest that the comisel point to the most import-
ant of those delivery services, which causes me concern as a country
boy, and that is milk deliveries, because without milk deliveries, New
York City and all tlie babies die. The joint council controls milk
deliveries.
The Chairman. Proceed.
3598 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. As I say, it is not only a question of the control of
these various locals, and the trucking of these various locals, but
the joint council lias an important role in control over all other unions
in New York City. Once again because it is a teamsters joint
council.
As an example, if somebody wants, another union wants to strike a
particular business, they can strike the business and say for instance
there are nonunion people in the business. Those nonunion people will
continue to go into that business in and out. The strike will not really
have an effect, unless they can stop the trucking from going into that
business, and stop the pickups and deliveries; if that happens that
business will have to go out. It will be finished in 2 or 3 days and the
strike will be a success.
Who is going to make tlie determination as to whether those trucks
will go in and out, and whether the milk for instance will be delivered
if a strike is being conducted at a hotel, or whether food and milk will
be delivered to that hotel ? Or whether there will be any pickups from
that hotel ?
That hotel could not operate if they did not get those deliveries,
or a business could not operate unless there were pickups and deliveries.
It is the teamsters joint council that makes that decision. It is the
teamster joint council which will decide and which does decide whether
the teamsters will support a strike of another union. They are the
ones that make the decision as to whether the pickup and deliveries
will be made.
Senator Kennedy. I think that point is tremendously important,
not only the power that the teamsters have in the moving of material,
but the effect it has on other unions.
Now, last February 2, Mr. O'Rourke, who I understand is head
of the joint council 16, speaking from Miami, said, and I quote:
We are getting our brains beat out every day by these self-appointed re-
formers. You Icnow we control what moves in and out of a plant or store or busi-
ness establishment. If we honor a picket line, the strike is won. We get 30 to
40 requests a day for help, and I am going to be mighty choosey about who
gets it.
In other words, Mr. O'Rourke is indicating that those who oppose
racketeering or corruption in any unions, and those who oppose that
sort of activity go on strike, Mr. O'Rourke is going to decide whether
he is going to permit the teamsters to cross that picket line or not.
Therefore, tliat gives Mr. O'Rourke and that local, that joint council
rather, free power not only over the economic life of New York but
over all of the otlier unions who might be completely unconnected with
the teamster leadership, and who might be opposed to some of their
activities.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the counsel a
question.
Is tliere a standard form of contract used throughout the area of
the joint council 16, the contracts with the employers?
Mr. Kennedy. Tliere is not.
Senator Curtis. But are they all union-shop contracts, or contracts
that have some form of compulsory membership clauses?
Mr. Kennedy. It varies, Senator, and it varies in various shops,
and various businesses. There is a move now on to go more and
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3599
more toward centralization, and having an areawide contract, but
that does not exist at the present time.
Senator Curtis. Some of those contracts are not union shops.
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct, and we will develop some of that
here after we get into it.
(At this point Senators Goldwater and McNamara entered the
hearing room.)
Mr. I^NNEDY. I think in connection with Mr. O'Rourke's state-
ment, that he said every day they have somewhere between 35 and
40 requests for supports of strikes, so you can see that this is not just
a theoretical problem. This is a problem that arises every day, and
John O'Rourke as president of joint council 16 makes the decision
every day as to whether they will support that strike, or not support
it. If they support it, the strike is successful. And if they do not
support it, the strike will fail.
Senator Kennedy. The strike of other unions, you mean.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Now, this goes beyond these unions here, that the joint council con-
trols directly. This is other unions that they control. That is why
it has such a great effect on the community life in New York City.
Now, as I said at the beginning, we are concerned not only — I
think it would be important if racketeers or hoodlums took over any
labor union — but this is a fight and a struggle for the control of joint
council 16 in New York City. During this same period of time, and
I am talking now of 1955 and 1956, the struggle went beyond the con-
trol of joint council 16 to an alliance that was made between chiefly
by James Hoffa and the ILA, the International Longshoremen's
Association, which controls the docks here in New York City. That
alliance was made on November 27, 1955, whicli was about the same
time as the fight took place in New York City for the control of
joint council 16.
The alliance continued into the middle of 1956.
At that time, during the middle of 1956, Mr. Hoffa made arrange-
ments to loan some $490,000 to ILA.
Now, the ILA had been ousted from the AFL by Mr. George
Meany, on the grounds that they were racketeered. They were ousted
back in 1953. And yet, this alliance was made with this racket-ridden
union in 1955, and there were arrangements made in 1956 to loan this
union $590,000.
That, too, would have gone through except again the intervention
of Mr. Meany.
So the control during this period of time could mean the lifeblood
of New York City, and that is what we are getting into here.
If the teamsters are controlled or run by hoodlums or gangsters, or
run by people who have an obligation to hoodlums and gangsters, or
Communists, then the lifeblood of New York City, and really
of the United States, can be cut off. It can be a strangulation proc-
ess. We are going to get into mass extortions, misuse of power, and
mistreatment of individual union members.
Senator Mundt. Assuming that the joint council. Bob, is in the
hands of racketeers and establishes this control, about how many
racketeers would Moscow have to buy off in that way to control New
York City?
3600 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I have no idea, Senator.
Senator Mtjndt. You have some idea of how many people there
are on the joint council ?
Mr. Kennedy. My point is not so much that perhaps the joint coun-
cil itself is run by racketeers or hoodlums, and we are going to bring
out some information on that, but that these people have an obligation
to gangsters and hoodlums, because they would not have achieved
their position of power unless they had made a deal a year or 2 years
or 4 years earlier with some hoodlum or gangster, in order to get to
that position. I think that that is the risk.
Now, the same risk applies certainly as far as Communists are
concerned. If you make an arrangement with a Coromunist that
you are going to get to a position of power, if they do a favor for
you, you in turn cannot turn your back on them in 2 years, and say,
"Now I have gotten head of the miion. If you come before a con-
gressional committee and take the fifth amendment, I don't care;
I am not going to turn my back on you. I am going to support you.
"If the congressional committee, or a grand jury, brings out infor-
mation that you have been misusing union funds and misusing your
position or have Communist affiliations, I will not turn my back on
you. I have gotten to my position because of your help."'
Senator Mundt. It is precisely the point I am trying to make. Un-
less we believe we are living in a dream world, if we anticipate that
there is any conceivable threat of an attack from Russia, it is so
easy under this mechanism for the Communists either dealing with
the racketeers or replacing them, to give orders which could paralyze
the city at any giA^en hour or any given day, preliminary so some
military movement that the Communist government might be en-
deavoring to make.
We think in terms of national defense, and we think in terms of a
war potential, of the greatest city in the world.
Unless you believe that the men of ISfoscow operate with brains of
sawdust, they know it and they think about that. This provides them
a tremendous opportunity to control that vast city without firing
a shot.
Mr. Kennedy. In that connection, in 1934 I believe, the Commu-
nists did recognize the unportance of the teamsters, and gained con-
trol over the line drivers that operated out of Minneapolis, and actu-
ally gained control over them.
Senator Mundt. Anyone who has read the Communist mandates,
and studied the Communist literature, recognizes that one of the
essential principles of the whole Communist movement in this country
is to locate the positions of power, and to try to attain them. Obvi-
ously, this is a tremendously important position of power.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, I was saying that there was control of this
group by racketeers or hoodlums who can get to extortions and ar-
rive at groups of extortioiis.
Mr. Chairman, during this period of time the district attorney,
Mr. Hogan, was keeping a close watch and touch on all of these
affairs. Under the State law he is allowed to put a tap on telephones.
He put a tap on a telephone call which is of some importance and
gives the committee a picture as to how some of these extortions take
place. We have received a court order from the State of New York,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3601
signed by a judge, giving this committee permission to play this
telephone call as well as certain other telephone calls that we will
play later in the hearings, and I think it might give you a picture
as to how some of these extortions take place, or at least preliminary
negotiations for an extortion, if we could play this telephone call at
the present time.
The Chairman. Do you want to play it now ?
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to play it now.
The Chairman. How is this telephone call or this tapping ob-
tained ?
Mr. Kennedy. It was obtained by Mr. Hogan, district attorney in
New York City, under a court order. He received court permission
to put the tap on the particular telephone, and the tap was obtained,
and then they in turn turned it over to this committee under a court
order from the State of New York.
The Chairman. The Chair will make this observation : This has
been discussed in conference or executive session of the committee.
The Chair satisfied himself, and I think other members of the com-
mittee who attended that session are satisfied that it would be per-
fectly proper for this committee to make use of this testimony. In
some areas, and for some purposes wiretapping is illegal, but in New
York, as Senator Ives I am sure is familiar
Senator Ives. It has been legal in New York for many years.
The Chairman. Therefore the wiretapping that we shall use here,
that we shall play, was obtained legally, and the court has granted
authority to this committee to make use of it, and therefore I shall
without objection, order printed in the record at this point the order
of the court authorizing and directing this committee to make use
of this as evidence in this hearing.
This will be printed in the record at this point, Mr. Reporter.
(The court order referred to follows :)
Court of Gener-»-l Sessions, County of New York
In the Matter of Intercepting Telephonic Communications Transmitted
OvKU EXeter 2-0219 and EXeter 2-0220
It appearing from the affidavit of Alfred J. Scotti. Chief Assistant District
Attorney of the County of New York, sworn to on April 30, 1957, that it is in the
public interest to furnish to the United States Senate Select Committee on
Improper Activities in the Labor or IManagement Field, of which the Honorable
John L. McClellan, of Arkansas, is Chairman, and Robert F. Kennedy is Chief
Counsel, certain transcripts and information with respect to the interception of
telephonic communications durintj the periods August 5. 1955. to February 1,
1956, and February 3, 1956, to August 1, 1956. which were transmitted over the
telephone instruments designated as EXeter 2-0219 and EXeter 2-0220, listed in
the name of Local 405. Retail Clerks International Association, a labor organiza-
tion affiliated with the American Federation of Labor, located at premises
5 Court Square, Long Island City, County of C,»ucens, fur the use of said committee
in connection with and in the course of its said investigation, it is
Ordered, that the District Attorney of New York County be, and he hereby is,
authorized and empowered to furnish said Committee with the transci'ipts and
information with respect to the interception of telephonic communications trans-
mitted over each of the above identified telephone instruments during the periods
set forth hereinabove, for the use of said Committee in connection with and in the
course of its said investigation.
Dated, New York, N. Y., July 1, 1957.
(Signed) J. C. G. S.
89330— 57— pt. 10 ^2
3602 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Court of General Sessions County of New York
In the Matter of Intercepting Telephonic Communications Transmitted
Over EXeter 2-0219 and EXeter 2-0220
State of New York,
Cottnty of New York ss.:
Alfred J. Scotti, being duly sworn, deposes and says :
I am the Chief Assistant District Attorney in and for the County of New York
and in charge of the Rackets Bureau of the District Attorney's Office.
This is an application for an order permitting the District Attorney of New
York County to furnish to the United States Senate Select Committee on Improper
Activities in the Labor or Management Field, of which the Honorable John L.
McClellan, of Arkansas, is Chairman, and Robert F. Kennedy is Chief Counsel,
certain transcripts and information with respect to the interception of telephonic
communications transmitted over EXeter 2-0219 and EXeter 2-0220, listed in
the name of Local 405, Retail Clerks International Association, a labor organ-
ization affiliated with the American Federation of Labor, located at premises 5
Court Square, Long Island City, County of Queens, during the periods herein-
below set forth.
On January 30, 1957, the Senate of the United States duly adopted a resolution
by which the said Committee was authorized to investigate improper activities
in the labor or management field, with the purpose of obtaining information
upon which the United States Senate could consider the advisability of adopting
new legislation or modifying or amending present statutes.
The said Committee thereafter conducted both public and private hearings
with this end in view, and has subpoenaed and interrogated numerous witnesses
from various localities and States of the United States.
The Committee is now planning to extend its investigation to the area of New
York State and in this connection has issued, or contemplates the issuance of,
a subpoena to Max Chester, a former official and business representative of the
said local, for interrogation in connection with said investigation.
In August 19.56, and again subsequent to January 30, 1957, the date the said
resolution above referred to was adopted, said Chief Counsel of said Committee
requested that this office furnish him, for the use of the said Committee, all
transcripts and information reflecting the interception of all telephonic com-
munications transmitted over the telephone instruments hereinabove described.
The records of this office reveal that the telephonic communications trans-
mitted over said instruments were intercepted during the periods hereinbelow
set forth. All of said interceptions were pursuant to orders issued by Judges of
the Court of General Sessions under Section S13a of the Code of Criminal Pro-
cedure.
The dates during which the said telephonic communications were inter-
cepted were August 5, 1955, to February 1, 1956, and February 3. 1956, to August
1, 1956.
It is respectfully submitted that the District Attorney of New York County be
authorized, in the public interest, to furnish to the United States Senate Select
Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or IManagement Field the said
transcripts and other information for the use of said Committee in connection
with and in the course of its said investigation.
No previous application has been been made for the order herein requested.
(Signed) Alfred J. Scotti.
Sworn to before me this 30th day of April 1957.
(Signed) Kathryn A. Donohue,
Notary Public, State of New York, No. 31-0993100. Qualified in New
York County.
Commission expires March 30, 1959.
Senator McNamara. Before you go into the recording
Do I understand that Senator Goldwater had a question ? I would
be glad to yield, Senator, if you want the attention of the Chair, before
I ask a question.
Senator Goldwater. Wliat I have can wait.
The Chairman. Just a moment. We will put the others in later.
All right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITrES ZNT THE LABOR FIELD 3603
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, we have been given a pretty
good picture of one side of the trucking industry — I would like the
attention of the chief counsel, if I may have it.
Mr. Kennedy. I am sorry.
Senator McNamara. We have a pretty good picture of one side of
the trucking industry in the New York area, and you indicate the Joint
Council No. 16 made up of 58 locals, and 125,000 union members, is
the labor side of the picture. How about the management side of the
picture? Do they have an organization comparable to the joint coun-
cil?
Mr, Kennedy. Not with the degree of control, Senator. There are
some associations of truckers in New York City.
Senator McNamara. Do you have the names of those associations?
Mr. Kennedy. VYe have one : The Empire Trucking Association.
Senator McNamara. Does that embrace this whole area?
Mr. IvENNEDY. I will have to check that. We don't know in what
area. It is in New York City, and we don't know in what area the Em-
pire Trucking Association is.
Senator McNamara. Ordinarily, where we find joint councils of em-
ployees, we find comparable organizations of management. If there
is extortion, and if there is racketeering, ordinarily there are both sides
involved. I think when we go into a situation, we ought to get both
sides of the picture so that we will know who we are dealing with and
what we are dealing with. I think we got half of the picture of the
trucking industry pretty well disclosed here this morning, and there
is certainly the other half that we ought to have more information on.
Mr. Kennedy. That is fine, Senator.
The Chairman. Are there other questions or comments before we
proceed ?
Mr. Kennedy. I might just say about this recording, it involves
a gentleman by the name of Max Chester, and he was formerly presi-
dent of local 227 of the UAW-AFL, which we will go into at a lat^r
time.
He was involved in a bribery charge in that union and left it. He
then established or went to work for local 405 of the retail clerks. It
was as an officer of local 405 of the retail clerks that this telephone
conversation took place.
I might say that subsequently to this telephone conversation, the
district attorney moved in on Mr. Chester and he was indicted and
pleaded guilty to taking a $2,000 bribe.
The Chairman. Are you ready to proceed with the recording ?
Now, it is understood, and am I correct, that this recording and
this wire recording was obtained from the State officials of New York ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. All right.
(The following recording was played.)
Max Chester. Mr. Wallau?
Wallau. Yes?
Chester. Mr. Wallau, this is in regard to your slipper place.
"Wali^au. Regard to what, sir?
Chester. This is regard to your shop. This is local 405, Mr. Chester speak-
ing, business manager. We have an organizational campaign going on around
your area in regard to your shop. Are you listening?
Wallatt. Yes, sure.
3604 IMPROPER AcnvrriES in the labor field
Chester. Now, before we start doing any agitation, we always like to give
the employer the courtesy of sitting down and talking, and maybe for the pur-
pose of having a fine conference and getting along together
Wallau. What type of union do you run?
Chester. Well, we have a catch-all charter, Mr. Wallau, and we are the AFL.
Wallau. Anything and everything in what area?
Chester. We organize the unorganized. Now, I don't want to start any
agitation because we did it in a few other places and it only cost the employer
money and he did sign anyway. Now
Wallau. You already said that, my friend, I just have — I just have to ask a
few questions to find out just what the situation is. I'm not trying to be smart
about it ; I know nothing about it.
Chester. Well, there's no use in me discussing matters over the phone. We
couldn't come to any conclusion one way or the other in that respect anyway.
Wallau. Then, what'U you suggest?
Chester. Well, I suggest to have a conference ; sit down in person and talk.
Wallau. Well, that would be fine. We have no objection to that.
Chester. When would your nearest time be, before I really start any agita-
tion
( Subdued laughter heard over the phone. )
Chester. So, you're laughing. It's a
Wallau. It's the third time you used that word.
Chester. Well, because I'll tell you why we did. We did have a strike out
with Gustav, and we signed them up the same day. There's no reason why we
should go on that way again. It only costs the person money for no reason
at all. Why isn't this and that
Wallau. Yes, well, I haven't any idea what
Chester. You heard of Gu.stjiv ; didn't you?
Wallau. I know the name.
Chester. Yeah ; well, I guess so
Wallau. You see, I haven't any idea whether the standard that your local
sets up would be agreeable to our men or, or
Chester. Oh, they'll be agreeable to your men, don't worry about that. The
standard that we set up
Wallau. Because we run a pretty nice shop-
Chester. We knov;' that; everybody runs a pretty nice shop but the idea is
the envelope — is it nice?
Watj.au. I I)eg your pardon?
Chester. Is the envelope nice?
Wallau. Oh, yes.
Chester. Well, we try to make the envelope better.
Wallau. Well, I'm sure you do.
Chester. (Sarcastic laughter.)
Wallau. I'm sure you do. I understand that phase of the operation, abso-
lutely. May I have yuur name?
Chester. Mr. Chester.
Wallau. Chester?
Chester. C-h-e-s-t-e-r.
Wallau. And how can I get in touch with you?
Chester. Well, I'm right now in my oflQce and it was very imperative that
I call you because I'll tell you why. My men, we're going to start operation in
your place down somewhere :i round 20th Street where you do your shipping; is
that correct?
Wallau. We certainly do
Citestkr. So I told them to stop it until I speak to the owner of the shop.
Wallau. Well, I can understand that, too, well [laughing as he talks].
Chester. So, we know all your detail ; how you operate from one place to
.•mother, so, I mean I'm trying to curtail a lot of things so, in other words, you
conld help both sides of the picture.
Wallait. Well, that sounds very nice of you, Mr. Chester. Now, what is your
proposal? How soon do yon feel it is imperative that we get together?
Chester. Well, it's imperative that we get together momentarily. I'll be
honest with you.
Wallau. Well, momentarily
Chester. You know
Wallau. Is it 24 hours, 48 hours?
Chester. Momentarily could be within an hour or two. It don't have to be
24 or 48. Am I speaking to Alex Wallau himself?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3605
Wallatj. You are speaking to Wallau, Jr.
Chestek. Wallau, Jr. Fine. Don't tell me Dad is somewhere in the Tahitian
Islands.
Waixau. No ; he's actually not.
Chestee. Oh, I see.
Wallau. He's not in today, however.
Chester. You make decisions yourself, or do you have to
Wallau. I've been known to make 1 or 2.
Chester. Huh?
Wallau. I've been known to make 1 or 2.
Chester. Oh, you've been known to make 1 or 2. Were they good or bad?
[Laughter.]
Wallau. [Inaudible.]
Chester. Well, that's all right; you're batting pretty good. Well, what
could I tell you outside of, it's, it's important?
Wallau. Is, is, is the fact that
Chester. Mr. Wallau
Wallau. That I'm hesitating has nothing to do with the
Chester. That's all right ; it's probably something that hit you right away
and you want to collect your
Wallau. No, no. I want to work it into a very busy schedule. I realize the
importance of it. We're quite-
Chester. Well, I'm pretty busy too-
Wallau. Conversant with these problems. We are — I assure you over the
years they come up a number of times, and it's no different today than it has
been. I know that you'll be very fair and very nice to talk with and I want
to arrange it as quickly as I can. However, we're not accustomed to being
pushed into things
Chester. Well, I'm not pushing you; you asked me is it imperative
Wallau. Yes ; it is imperative to you. On the other hand
Chester. Listen a minute. The reason why I called you ; I shouldn't even of
told yon this because I feel, well, on my own I took it upon myself — which I am
the boss here — and I took it upon myself and told these men to stop doing any-
thing until I spoke to the owner, well, whoever is in charge. I thought I'd give
you that courtesy
Wallau. Mr. Chester, but that, that's usual union practice. I mean you people
have a
Chester. No ; they don't. The usual union practice is to go out and picket and
come what may. The boss or someone contacts the union or somehow or some-
body representing the boss will
Wallau. Well, then, let's say that you're doing that with me. We approve.
We understand because we've had some — some understanding of these things.
Naturally, you have to keep abreast of it.
Chester. Well, that's the best way
Wallau. Sure, that's how we've been able to operate and keep everybody
reasonably contented with the pay envelope to which you refer. [Both men
laugh.] Supposing, although I admit that even with the union scales nobody
is completely happy with their pay envelopes. That's human nature
Chester. Now there, in other words, you're trying to regard things as an
exaggeration ; is that right?
Wallau. We do everything we can. We do the best we can for everybody but
whether or not we're doing it according to your standards has yet to be estab-
lished. We want to talk to you and figure that out. It would be very interesting
to do so
Chester. Off the record, could you tell me about how many employees you
have?
Wallau. No ; but I'd like to do that when we sit down together and see whether
it is worth your while or not to even fool around with us ; we may be too small
to
Chester. It could be. it could be eighty, a hundred, three, four, or a thousand ;
it doesn't make a particle of difference
Wallau. Well, that's what we'll figure out when we get together with you. I
feel that it could be done after lunch tomorrow if .vou feel that that's agreeable.
Chester. Well, I have 2 appointments ; 1 at 1 o'clock and 1 at 11.
Wallau. Why don't we
Chester. Could you make it at 9 : 30 — 9 : 30 in the moi-ning?
Wallau. Well
3606 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Chester. I'd only take up about 20 minutes of your time. That's all it usually
takes me.
Wallau. Yes ; well, I'll tell you
Chester. I'll give you all of the fundamentals
Wallau. Morning mail at 9 : 30 in the morning.
Chester. Well, suppose we make it at 10 thenV
Waixau. Let's make it at 10 o'clock.
Chester. Ten o'clock. In other words, I stopped everything just today.
Wallau. Ah
Chester. But my men will be right at the situation till after we finish talking.
Wallau. Fine. Ton keep them there, Mr. Chester.
Chester. All right.
Wallau. See you at 10 o'clock.
(Phones laid down.)
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question ?
Mr. Kennedy, is that not a threat of organizational picketing?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes ; the employees of this plant were not contacted.
This was the conversation that takes place and the employees were
not consulted as to whether they wanted to belong to a union.
This was a threat of putting a picket line outside of the establish-
ment and trying to force the employer then to have his employees
sign a union contract.
Senator Goldwater. The employees of this Wallau Co., is that the
correct name, were not organized at this time ?
Mr. Kennedy. They had not been approached even at the time Max
Chester had this telephone conversation and after Max Chester went to
visit Mr. Wallau on the following day, a $2,000 payment was made to
Max Chester and those employees were never organized or never
even approacliecl after that and the shop remained unorganized.
Senator Goldwater. Who made that payment ?
Mr. Kennedy. Wallau, the owner's son made the payment.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Wallau gave in and paid $2,000 ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir; and Mr. Max Chester pleaded guilty to
extortion and ref^iving the $2,000 payment and he is awaiting sentence
at the present time.
Senator Goldwater. At no time during these proceedings were the
men consulted as to whether they wanted to join the union or become
organized ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Senator Goldwater. Is this a typical pattern that we are going
to see throughout these particular hearings ?
Mr. Kennedy. This is a pattern, not the organized pattern that is
used by labor unions, but it is a pattern that is used by certain of
these gangsters and hoodlums in New York City.
It is these people that we are going to show, it is these people that
operate these unions that use these practices that gave the votes and
gave control of the joint council 16 to the group that controls it now.
It is these people that were called upon for assistance when the
joint council IG vote was in question.
Senator Goldwater. ^Ylien I said these hearings, I mean this par-
ticular set of hearings and I realize this is not general vmion practice.
Now, I have one other question that might be related. I have not
been able to ask you about this before. To allow this type of gang-
ster operation to go on in a relatively small area of Manhattan, has it
been necessary to receive the cooperation of local governments ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3607
Mr. Kennedy. I do not think so. We have no evidence of that. I
do not think during our investigation that we have found anyone that
has done more in a community to rid the community of gangsterism
than Mr. PTogan and his office. Without their cooperation and help,
we would not even be able to begin to present any kind of a hearing.
We have not received any information that there have been any
other law or Government authorities that have assisted these people.
We do not have any information about that.
Senator Goldwater. Have you discovered any evidence of violence
in picketing that has been condoned by, say, the local police depart-
ment?
Mr. Kennedy. No, and in fact I would not think there was a great
deal of violence in picketing in New York City, as far as this procedure
is concerned. That is not the procedure that is followed.
Violence and the type of terrorism that existed before, it does not
exist in New York City like it exists in certain other areas. They are
far more refined in New York City.
Senator Goldwater. That is questionable, but actually, with the
hold that these people have on this island, violence is not needed. I
recognize that. This teamster organization in Manhattan can effec-
tively close that city down. They can do it on their own wishes, or
they can do it at the request of those who want to strike. There is
probably not a place in the United States that is so susceptible to the
threat of union power as exercised in the wrong way as Manhattan is ;
would that be correct?
Mr. Kennedy. The potential certainly exists there, Senator.
Senator Goldwater. They could effectively stop the traffic in the
tubes, and they could effectively stop the traffic over the bridges and
there could be no food and no milk or supplies brought into the city
for any period of time that the teamsters wanted to hold it; is that
correct ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct, Senator. I think a teamster official
recently said, showing the control over human beings :
We drive the taxi tliat brings the woman to the hospital to have her baby.
When that baby grows up and becomes a man and dies, we drive the hearse that
brings that person to the graveyard. In between we deliver an awful lot of
groceries.
Senator Goldwater. Would I be safe in assuming that when we
have finished this particular set of hearings on New York, that the
pattern of union power, the sovereign power that now is vested in the
unions, will be brought more and more to the light of the American
people, and through the improper actions of this particular set of
unions we can point out what has been developed here so far and
which I feel will be developed more and more, the fact that we have
one segment of our society, if you want to call it that, or one segment
of our economic life that is operating completely without the bounds
of any control of Federal or State laws.
I think these hearings, even if they produce a long line of fifth
amendments, will do a lot of good because it will point up to the
American people the dangers that are inherent in power.
I do not care if it is in management or labor. Would you agree
with that?
Mr. Kennedy. Any conclusions will have to be made by the mem-
bers of the committee.
3608 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. The Chair would like to ask one question to get
this in its proper perspective. I do not understand that the testimony
or the recording is regarded or intended to imply that all labor unions
operate in that fashion.
It is simply to contradistinguish between the legitimate union organ-
izing and those who are crooks that get control and use the power of
the union for extortion. That is what happened in this instance.
Mr. Kennedy. It is a relatively minor group, Mr. Chairman. We
have spent a great deal of time in New York City.
Senator Ives. While we are on this subject, I want to put in a word
for labor organizations in New York State. The vast majority of
them are very high grade, run by leaders who are perfectly honest.
They are not in this category at all.
So I hope the general public would not get the idea that this is
representative of organized labor in New York State. It is not at all.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Kennedy,
in reference to this telephone conversation that we have just gone
through, it is apparent that Mr. Chester did not represent any of the
workers in Mr. Wallau's plant ; is that correct ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. The workers in the plant had not even been ap-
proached. Senator.
Senator Curtis. Now, is there any law that you recall dealing with
an individual holding himself out as a bargaining agent when in
truth and in fact he does not represent any of the workers at all, or
his organization ?
Mr. Kennedy. I am sorry. Will you repeat the question ?
Senator Curtis. Is there any law making it an offense for someone
to hold himself out as a bargaining agent when he does not represent
any of the workers ?
Mr. Kennedy. As I understand it, there is no law to prevent a
picket line being placed in front of a business.
Senator Curtis. I understand that. But what I mean is for an
individual to talk terms, or, in other words, to negotiate with manage-
ment when he does not represent the workers inside.
Mr. Kennedy. There is no law at the present time.
Senator Curtis. I would just want to say this in reference to the
observations made here, that I concur in what the chairman has said
and the distinguished Senator from New York, about the fact that
only a very small percent of the unions are in the hands of hoodlums
and bad characters.
But I do not believe that the problem we are wrestling here with
is solved wlien we merely drive them out of the labor-union movement.
Congress is responsible for having laws that lay too much power in
some places and make it an invitation for bad men to seize that power.
We have not given enough protection to the people who do the work,
the rank and file of the union members.
The Chairman. I would like to ask one other question to get the
record straight. Was Mr. Chester at the time, in fact, an official of
any union ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, he was.
The Chairman. What was his official position?
Mr. KjiNNEDY. He was secretary- treasurer of the Eetail Clerks
Union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3609
The Chairman. That is what it showed, but it was not in the
record. He definitely was secretary-treasurer ?
Mr. Kennedy. Of local 405.
The Chairman. That was not a teamster union ?
Mr. Kennedy. No ; it was not.
Senator McNamara. Following up the question I asked before
about organization of employers, do you find that this man Wallau was
a member of any association of trucking owners ?
Mr. Kennedy. He did not have a trucking concern, Senator.
Senator McNamara. What was the nature of his business ?
Mr. Kennedy. He made slippers.
Senator McNamara. I see.
The Chairman. He manufactured them or just sold them ?
Mr. Kennedy. He manufactured slippers.
Senator R^s. How many employees did he have ?
Mr. Kennedy. We do not know, Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. That question arose, you know, during their con-
versation and I was curious.
Mr. Kennedy. I do not know the answer to that.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, to understand this picture as far as what oc-
curred in joint council 16, we have to go back to the year 1950 and the
union called a UAW-AFL.
The Chairman. That union is still in existence ?
Mr. Kennedy. It is not now, Mr. Chairman, since the middle of
1956, as the Allied Industrial Workers of America, and it has its
headquarters out in Los Angeles, Calif.
The Chairman. The name of it has been changed, but it has been a
continuing labor organization?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
In the late 1930's, the UAW split into 2 parts, 1 CIO and 1
AFL. This is the UAW-AFL and it had that name until the middle
of 1956, when after the merger it was ruled that they should change
their name and they changed their name to the Allied Industrial
Workers of America.
They have approximately 80,000 members, in 318 locals throughout
the United States and their headquarters are in Los Angeles, Calif.
Senator McNamara. So we might follow this more closely, Mr.
Chairman; what is the relation now with this situation to the truck-
ing industry that we outlined at the start?
Mr. Kennedy. Once again, a great number of the UAW unions,
UAW-AFL, were amalgamated locals. They went to organize the
unorganized. Their connection with the truckers and the team-
sters I will show with another chart and their relationship of this
UAW-AFL and the teamsters and the joint council 16 will be de-
veloped as we go along.
Senator McNamara. Will you give me the local number that we
are dealing with in this instance ?
Mr. Kennedy. As we go along, I will do that. The joint council
16 of the teamsters is the only one that we really discussed.
Senator McNamara. But this fellow represented himself in con-
versation that we just heard, not as an official of the joint council,
or did he ?
3610 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. My only point in that was in a sample, a classic
example of what can happen if racketeers or hoodlums take over a
labor union.
He has a relationship with Johnny Dio and the UAW-AFL.
Senator McNamara, That will be developed later.
Mr. KIennedy. He was kicked out of there for bribery. We have
this telephone conversation when he was convicted of extortion and
it was a classic example as to what can happen. Max Chester is of
interest to us because of his relationship with Johnny Dio.
As I say, this is going to relate to the international union of the
UAW-AFL, and they began their operations in New York City in
September of 1950.
At that time there was a man in New York City by the name of
Sam Zackman, who had been in the labor movement. During the
1930's he had been a Communist and he remained a Communist un-
til sometime during the 1940's.
He fought in Spain and he was a commissar with the army in
Spain, fighting with the Communists. He came back and he was
in the labor union movement and during the early part of 1950 he was
attempting to get a charter, so that he could start organizing the un-
organized.
We had a conversation with a Sam Berger and Zackman had this
conversation with Sam Berger at this period of time and he said,
"I am looking around for a charter."
Sam Berger at that time was manager of local 102 of the ILGWU
and that is the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union, Lo-
cal 102 of the Ladies' Garment Workers Union does the shipping in
the garment district.
There has always been a dispute between the ladies' garment work-
ers and the teamsters as to who should have that jurisdiction because
this is actually trucking jurisdiction. But the International Ladies'
Garment Workers have always controlled that.
Sam Berger has been the manager of that union. Sam Berger
had been a friend of long standing with Johnny Dio. When he was
approached by Sam Zackman, he then had some conversations with
Paul Dorfman who is a well-known character or figure from Chicago,
111., and has had a close relationship with the old Capone mob.
In turn they approached a man by the name of Dave Privian and
they all went to see Tony Doria, Anthony Doria, this gentleman here,
out in Minneapolis or Milwaukee where the headquarters of the UAW-
AFL was at that time.
They spoke to Doria and he agreed to grant a charater to Sam
Zackman and the charter members at that time were Sam Zackman,
Paul Dorfman, and I might say as far as Paul Dorfman is concerned
that his son now handles the insurance for the central conference of
teamsters.
The Chairman. At this point, since you are referring to another
chart, I will order the chart printed in the record at this point so that
those who read the record may follow it.
(The chart is as follows ;)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
3611
3612 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. The original charter members — there were approxi-
mately 16, the ones that were interested — were Sam Zachman, Paul
Dorfman, Dave Privian, who is now the attorney for the central
conference of teamsters, which is Mr. Hoffa's group, and Berger,
Dorfman, and Zackman.
Senator Ives. May I interrupt you there ? I notice the name of Jolm
Dioguardi up there on top. That is Johnny Dio, I take it ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Senator I\ts. Under the United Automobile Workers, AFL, New
York. Is he the controlling force in that setup with all of these
people you are mentioning now, directly under him ?
Mr. Kennedy. I am only here at the present time, which is Sep-
tember 19, 1950, when the charter was originally granted.
Senator Curtis. Will you tell us what that charter was ?
Mr. Kennedy. It was a charter to organize, an amalgamated charter
and it was the first time the UAW-AFL came into the New York
City area. It was to organize the unorganized, any kind of a shop.
Senator Curtis. It gave the holders of that charter a right to go any
place and organize a union ?
Mr. Kennedy. Any group of employees.
Senator Curtis. It Avas not a charter to a particular organization.
Mr. Kennedy. No.
Senator Curtis. It was sort of a blanket right for them to go out
and organize ?
Mr. Kennedy . That is right. A week after this charter was granted,
which is September 18, 1950, Johnny Dioguardi came on the scene.
There is some evidence he was involved in this right from the begin-
ning, but they wanted to keep his name off the original charter.
His name does not appear on the original charter granted on Sep-
tember 19, 1950, but within a week, they started to make arrange-
ments, led by Sam Zackman, and they started to make arrangements
to get a headquarters.
Johnny Dioguardi was introduced and he said he would finance the
operation. He would finance the headquarters and he would put his
money, his own personal money into this operation. He was interested
in organizing the unorganized.
At the same time that he came into the labor union movement,
Johnny Dioguardi ran a number of dress concerns, and a number
of them in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, which were not unionized
and which he had kept nonunion.
Subsequently, he sold one of these dress firms and while he was
working for local 102 he sold this dress firm to another person and
charged $5,500 over the price with the understanding that that $5,500
was paid in order to keep that shop from being organized.
The Chairman. Now, is Dio identified with that union at the
time?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, he was identified as far as financing the opera-
tions of the union and as far as working out of the union head-
quarters. He had not become an official member until 1951.
The Chairman. But he was Avorking for that union ?
Mr. Kennedy. And he was financing it.
The Chairman. He was financing tliat union ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
rMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3613
The Chairman. When he sold his own plant, he added $5,500 on
the sale price to grant them the privilege to remain unorganized,
just as he had operated the plant.
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. Did he do that in the name of the union, and did he
have authority to do it in the name of the union, or was that just an
individual act ?
Mr. Kennedy. It was just an individual act. Local 102 of the
UAW would not have had jurisdiction over that plant anyway. But
he had contacts and power that he could keep this plant from being
organized.
Senator Ives. Where did he get his money to finance the union?
Mr. KJENNEDY. That he has refused to say, where he got the money.
Subsequently, he put in at least $25,000 in this union, local 102 and
local 102 which started an organization of the taxicabs in 1952.
Senator Curtis. I am not sure that I understand the connection of
the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union to that 102 local
that came into being in September of 1950.
Mr. Kennedy. The only connection, Senator, is that Sam Berger
was manager of local 102 of the ILGWU. That was his operation.
For some reason, unexplained, he came in and got a charter for Sam
Zackman, of local 102 of the LTAW, AFL. At that time he was a
close friend of Johnny Dio.
Within a week of that, a week of the time the charter was granted,
Johnny Dio came into the operation of local 102 of the LTAW, AFL.
There is a question as to why Sam Berger of the ILGWU even got
involved in this kind of an operation.
Senator Curtis. Does Mr. Diibinsky enter into it at all?
Mr. Kennedy. Not that I know of.
Senator Ives. May I ask whether you consulted Mr. David Dubinsky
on this?
Mr. Kennedy. I did.
Senator Ives. What did you find out from him ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was very concerned at the entrance of Mr. Ber-
ger into this operation. He, at that time, said that he had repri-
manded Sam Berger for doing that and subsequently, Berger ap-
peared before a grand jury in New York City and after he appeared
before the Senate Subcommittee of Investigations down here he took
the fifth amendment on some questions, and he was suspended from his
job.
Senator Ives. I have known Mr. Dubinsky for a great many years.
He enjoys a very enviable reputation in New York City and as a very
outstanding citizen of New York. I think you can rely on his testi-
mony.
Senator McNamara. Apparently, the main character in this
Mr. Kennedy. Operation?
Senator McNamara. That is a good word ; I will accept that — is one
Johnny Dio. He enters the picture in the first place not from the
labor side, but from the management side.
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Senator McNamara. He owns one kind of business.
INIr. Kennedy. He had been sent to jail in the late 1930's by Tom
Dewey and Tom Dewey described him at that time, and he said —
Johuuy Diogiiardi is a youug gorilla wlio began his career at the age of 15.
3614 IMPROPER ACnVITIES m THE LABOR FIELD
After he was convicted, he was convicted as a "head knocker" for
a group of truckers, for truckers associations. He was responsible
for the strong-arm tactics of bringing truckers into this association.
He and his uncle, James Fumari. This was in the late 1930's and
both of them were sent to Sing Sing at that time.
After he got out of Sing Sing, he went into various operations, in-
cluding the control and running of dress shops. These were non-
union dress shops.
Senator McNajiara. He was originally, apparently, hired as a
hoodlum to resist the labor organization.
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
Senator Goldwater. If I might, Mr. Chairman, ask Mr. Kennedy
this question :
Some years ago there was a character in New York by the name of
Fay, I believe that name is right. He wound up in Sing Sing. He
was visited during his stay in Sing Sing by a number of individuals
connected, I imagine with management and with labor.
Does Mr. Fay's name show up any place in these operations?
Mr. Kennedy. No, it does not.
Senator Goldwater. That is sort of surprising.
Mr. Kennedy. I would not say Mr. Fay's name does not show up
in other investigations we are conducting in New York City, but he
does not show up in this particular investigation.
Senator Goldwater. I am glad to hear that. I did not want him
to feel neglected.
Mr. Kennedy. He won't be.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. So they started their operations as an amalgamated
charter on September 18, 1950. Johnny Dio came into the picture
shortly afterward.
On April 23, 1951, some 6 months later, the second charter was
granted to local 102 and the first one was withdrawn and the second
one was granted and at that time Johnny Dioguardi's name actually
appears on the charter.
Johnny Dioguardi, as I said, was financing the operations of
local 102 at this time. More and more, as it moved along, he was
taking control of the operations from Sam Zackman.
Subsequently, Sam Zackman was kicked out of the union, and
Johnny Dioguardi took control completely.
The Chairman. Why was it necessary to grant another charter?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, the only explanation that we have, Mr. Chair-
man, is the fact that they wanted to legalize Johnny Dioguardi's
operations in the charter. That is in the control of local 102. His
name had not appeared in the original charter and in the second
charter his name did appear.
The Chairman. Then he became officially identified with the union ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. That is in April 23, 1951.
Senator McNamara. Before you go on, I missed a link here some-
where in the picture, and I am sure that you have stated it, but I wish
you would repeat it, the connection that the International Ladies'
Garment Workers had with this and who was the man.
Mr. Kennedy. The man by the name of Sam Berger
Senator McNamara. Was he an officer of the International Ladies'
Garment Workers?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3615
Mr. Kennedy. He was an officer of the local and he managed local
102 of the ILG^YU.
Senator McNamara. This is the same local, or is this another local
102?
Mr. Kennedy. Local 102 of the UAW. They took the same num-
ber as Sam Berber's local, ILGWU, and this is not related to ILGWU.
Senator McNamara. That straightens me out.
Senator Curtis. Did they take over the same operations?
Mr. Kennedy. No, they did not.
Senator Cuktis. Did Mr. Berger resign from the garment workers
union ?
Mr. Kennedy. He resigned in 1957 and he has been since indicted
by the district attorney.
Senator Curtis. But during this time that he was dealing with
these other unions, he was also a. member of the garment workers,
union ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Did he hold any office ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; he controlled 102 of the ILGWU.
Senator Curtis. He continued to control the garment workers union
and he had this other enterprise also ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Was that known to Mr. Dubinsky ?
Mr. Kennedy. At the time it was not.
Senator Curtis. When did he become aware of it?
Mr. Kennedy. I do not know, he Imew it certainly in 1956, but I
am sure he knew it prior to that time. He learned of it.
The Chairman. Mr. Dubinsky will be given an opportunity to
testify. He can make the explanation.
All right, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. To move along, the local 103 of the UAW started
an organization of the taxicabs. That was in New York City, and
the taxicab drivers. This organizational drive was financed by
Johnny Dioguardi, and, to some extent, by the international union.
In order to have just one union, and by this time Zackman had been
kicked out of the union, and in order to have one union concentrate
on tlie taxicab drivers, they split up the UAW 102 and got a separate
charter on March 22, 1952, for the taxicab drivers, which is local 102,
which is the taxicab charter.
Then he formed a local 649, which was, again, an amalgamated
charter, which was to organize the unorganized. Johnny Dioguardi
became president of local 649, and manager of local 102 of the taxicab
drivers.
Now, this is in March 22, 1952.
^ Thereafter, he became organizational director of the UAW opera-
tions in New York City, and other charters were granted periodically
for their operations.
During 1952, and 1953, some 15 different charters were granted
through Johnny Dioguardi by the international union in New York
City.
The Chairman. You said through Johnny Dioguardi. How do
you mean?
Mr. Kennedy. He then became in fact the regional director or the
district director of the UAW operations in New York City. With
3616 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
these charters that were granted, they were answerable to Johnny
Dioguardi.
Senator GoLDWAraR. Might I, before counsel gets away from that
taxicab situation, ask this question: That 102 of the taxicabs was
organized in 1952?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Was there a taxicab union organized in
August of 1951?
Mr. Kennedy. No, there was not. They started their operations
and organization of the taxicab drivers back in 1951, but they did not
receive their charter until 1952.
Senator Goldwater. Is it true that about 2,000 taxicab drivers
were paying dues before they had a union ?
Mr. Kennedy, They had a union, but they weren't a union shop
and they didn't have all of the taxicab drivers in town. They didn't
have a contract.
Senator Goldwater. It was operated under the amalgamated?
Mr. Kennedy. They had a taxicab driver charter, but they didn't
have a contract at that time between the union and management.
Senator Goldwater. There were about 2,000 paying dues at that
time ?
Senator Kennedy. Yes, and finally, after their operations, they
had as many as 2,000 taxicab drivers.
Senator Goldwater. I am wrong in assuming that they were just
paying dues into an organization that was not as yet a union ?
Mr. Ivennedy. No, I think that is right. They had a union. Sena-
tor, but they didn't have a contract. No. 1, and that was of great
importance.
Senator Goldwater. Is there any accounting of the dues collected
from those 2,000 people ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, there is not.
The Chairman. You said that there is no accounting. Have you
been able to get their records ?
Mr. Ivennedy. We haven't been able to trace that. We are going
to have a witness, Mr. Chairman, on the fact that there were dues
coming in, and what he thought happened to the dues. But we
cannot trace them down.
The Chairman. There are no records to trace them ?
Mr. Kennedy. No
The Chairman. I did not quite understand.
Will you proceed ?
Senator Goldwater. That is all I had. That question came up,
because I seem to recall in the briefing that something was mentioned
about the fact that these people were paying dues before they had a
union.
Mr. Kennedy. Your recitation of the fact is correct.
Senator Goldwater. That is correct. Then, am I further correct
in assuming that there has been no record discovered of what was
done with this money ?
Mr. Kennedy. We can't trace this money. Our information, based
on a witness, is that there were some 2,000 paying dues, and we cannot
trace that money coming into the union even. We don't know how
many they actually had, and if they paid that money what happened
to the money.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3617
Senator Goldwater, Was that witness a man named Zakman?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct. He is going to testify.
Senator Goldwater. Did Zakman work under Dio ?
Mr. Kennedy. The original charter was granted to him, and then
he was ousted and Dio took over from him.
Senator Goldwater. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, out of the 15 charters that were granted, of
Dio's operations in New York City, only 7 or 8 of them continued
and lasted, Mr. Chairman. The others were paper locals, who might
have existed for a week or 2 weeks or 3 weeks and then collapsed.
The Chairman. Those you have numbered there on the chart, are
those the ones that survived ?
Mr. Kennedy. Local 198, for instance, although we have it on the
<ihart, only lasted 3 weeks. The charter was given to Gasster and
Cohen, Gasster's wife was Johnny Dioguardi's secretary, and within
3 weeks of the time this charter was given to these 2 gentlemen, they
were picked up on extortion, and convicted.
Tlie Chairman. Therefore, the union was abandoned ?
Mr. Kennedy. That charter was abandoned. Only Colien was con-
victed and he refused to testify against Gasster. But that was within
3 weeks of the time it was chartered.
So these various local charters were granted during the years 1952,
and 1953.
In 1953, George Meany raised a question about Johnny Dioguardi,
because of his background and about his operations, and about the type
of people that he Avas bringing into the labor union movement in New
York City. He demanded at tliat time that Johnnj'^ Dioguardi and
the UAW-AFL give up their organization of the taxicabs. He said
that was outside the jurisdiction of the UAW-AFL and within the
jurisdiction of the teamsters. If anybody should organize the taxi-
cabs, it should be the teamsters.
He felt because of the type of associates of Johnny Dioguardi, he
wasn't the proper person to be doing this organizational work in New
York City.
The Chapman. It is a little strange to me. How did he get these
charters. How did he get these unions under his control ?
Mr. Kennedy. He got it through a relationship, a close relationship
that he had with Anthony Doria. Anthony Doria was secretary-
treasurer of the international union and they had a very close working
relationship.
Although there was a president of the union, Lester Washburn, the
actual operation was run by Anthony Doria, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. What has become of Anthony Doria ?
Mr. Kennedy. Anthony Doria — because of this operation, the ethi-
cal practices committee brought charges against the UAW-AFL.
The Chairman. When ?
Mr. Kennedy. In 1956, 1 think, and again in 195T, mostly because of
the results of the hearings that were held by Senator Douglas and
Senator Ives committee. The charges were made against the UAW-
AFL because of their bringing of gangsters into the labor movement.
It wasn't just in New York City. It was mostly in the operations in
Chicago, 111., and a man by the name of Ancisco, who was head of a
local there.
89330—57 — pt. 10 3
3618 IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
One of the conclusions they reached was that Anthony Doria should
leave the labor unidn movement, and he agreed to resign and that was
heralded as their cleaning up of their own union, UAW-AFL.
Unbeknownst, however, to the ethical practices committee and the
AFL^CIO, when Anthony Doria left he left with the promise that he
would receive $80,000 of union funds as a sort of going-away present.
The Chairman. $80,000?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
The Chairman. His rascality paid off, then, did it not ?
Mr. Kennedy. So, in 1953, Mr. Meany raised a question about these
various operations, and the operations of these locals in New York
City and specifically about the teamsters. At that time there were
meetings between various teamster officials, including Jimmy Hotfa,
with Johnny Dioguardi, to try to take over into the teamster opera-
tion their work that they had done on the taxicabs in New York City.
At that time, Jimmy Hoffa had met Johnny Dio and had a close
relationship with him.
AVlien Mr. Meany said that the UAW-AFL should give up the con-
trol of the taxicabs, Jimmy Hoffa then requested that Johnny Dio
bring his organization into the teamsters and that he would receive
a charter from the teamsters and continue his operation as a team-
ster member rather than as a member of the UAW-AFL. This was
opposed at that time by a vice president in New York, Tom Hickey,
about whom you will hear more later on. He opposed it, and he said
Johnny Dio had a bad background and the wrong kind of friends
and he would get the teamsters union in trouble and in difficulty in
the N<iw York City area.
They had a meeting about it, and subsequently, Dave Beck ruled
that Johnny Dio should not be brought into the teamsters organiza-
tion at that time.
Jimmy Hoffa was overruled.
Locul 102 of the taxicabs was given up and the teamsters organiza-
tion started a drive on the taxicab drivers.
So Johnny Dio continued operating local 649, and also in these
other unions. His chief union was local 649 of the UAW-AFL.
The Chairman. What does that cover ?
Mr, Kennedy. It is an amalgamated local.
The Chairman. It could organize anything ?
Mr. Kennedy. To organize the unorganized. A lot of different
shops were involved. He brought in his very close friends into 649
and they were sort of a parent local. The rest of the locals were of
less importance, although they were operating.
Then we come to 1954. There was some question raised in New
York City newspapers and law-enforcement agencies about Johnny
Dio's operations in New York City. Johnny Dio at that time, during
the middle of 1954, was sentenced to 60 days in jail for nonpayment
of taxes. The money tliat he liadn't paid tlie taxes on was the $5,500
that he had gotten for keeping his dress shop in New York from
being uiaionized. He hadn't declared that on his income tax. So he
was sentenced to 60 days in jail.
The Chairman. Was that a Federal sentence ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, a State sentence. During 1954, while he was
in jail, Lester Washburn, who was president of the international
union of UAW-AFL, lifted all of the charters of Johnny Dio's locals.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIEIiD 3619
He said that they would bring the UAW-AFL into disrepute, and
they were the wrong type of people that were in the labor-union
movement.
Immediately after that, his executive board met and they overruled
him and he was forced out as president, and he resigned as president
of the union. These charters were all given back to the locals and
they continued in operation.
The Chairman, In other words, when Dio was convicted, the in-
ternational president of that union lifted the charters ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And then his executive board overruled him?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right, led by Anthony Doria. They over-
ruled him and granted the charters all back, and he resigned.
The CiiAiRiviAN. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, when he made this move, he personally
kicked out Dio as regional director, but again Dio, after the executive
board met, was reinstated as in charge of all of the operations in New
York City.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed.
Senator McNamara. At this point, was Washburn's office in New
York City?
Mr. Kennedy. It was out in Milwaukee, Senator.
Senator McNaimara. He liad moved, I think, from Milwaukee, to
Detroit. Or did he move back?
Mr. Kennedy. His headquarters w^ere in Milwaukee and the UAW
headquarters were, at that time, in Milwaukee. Subsequently, in 1955
or 1956, the UAW-AFL moved to Los Angeles, where they are now.
Senator McNamara. There was a time prior to 1954 when he had
headquarters in Detroit, I believe. Maybe you did not get into that
phase of it.
Mr. Kennedy. I am not familiar with that.
So, in 1954, the middle of 1954, this event I have just described oc-
curred. Subsequently, there was a good deal written in the news-
Eapers about Johnny Dioguardi, and the executive board decided to
ave a meeting with him and consider the charges against him. They
had a meeting with him and cleared him and said that there wasn't
anything in his background or anything that they could find that he
had done wrong. However, he wrote them and said :
Because of the amount of controversy over this matter, I am going to resign from
the union.
That was, I believe, in August or September of 1954.
Although he resigiied from the union, and that was publicized at
the time, we will be able to show that he continued in an important
role in the control of these unioiis into 1955.
The Chairman. Now he continued that control without being ofS-
cially representing the union?
Mr. Kennedy. And after the union had announced that he had
severed all connections with the international union.
The Chairman. In other words, just an announcement made for the
public's benefit?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
The Chairman. And his power, however, continued?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
3620 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. And it was recognized ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. And he was consulted about union operations^
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. And, in fact, he was practically the boss' of it, is
that what 3^ou mean?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Senator Curtis. How many members did they get ?
Mr. Kennedy. You mean in all of these locals ?
Senator Curtis. From 1950 to 1954.
Mr. Kennedy. They had about 5,000 members.
Senator Curtis. 5,000 members?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Now, they had dues from 5,000 people?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you know how many of those conducted a
bona fide union and had meetings and transacted business ?
Mr. Kennedy. We have had a rather difficult time with the books
and records of these unions. We find that we will come to one of
these locals, for instance, and find there was a fire the day before and
the records liave been destroyed. Or, again, that the janitor threw
the records out, or they put the records in their car, and it happened
that the district attorney was subpenaing the records at the time and
to make sure they were turned over to the district attorney and to make
sure they were clown there bright and early, they took tlie books and
records out and put them in their automobile and then some burglar
broke into their automobile and stole the books and records.
Senator Curtis. From the evidence you do have of what unions they
had, would you say they were run from tlie top or did they organize
a few unions where the members really operated them ?
Mr. Kennedy. We will show, through witnesses, and we will call
here before the committee, members of these various unions, tlieir
relationship with these various union officials. We will bring in
some of the management people who had relationships with the union
officials. We feel that that is the only way we can really show the
picture, because of the fact that these books and records are not avail-
able to us.
The Chairman. Were you able to get the books and records of
any of those that you have listed there ?
Mr. Kennedy. In some, but what remained or what books and rec-
ords were kept are very sparse.
The Chairman. You received no complete records of any of tliem ?
Mr. Kennedy. No.
The Chairman. No records that would reflect the true transac-
tions of the union ?
Mr. Kennedy. No. The only thing we can rely on is the union
officials testimony themselves and, supplementing that, we have to
rely on the management end and also the members of the union as to
what experiences they had.
Senator Goldwater. Mr, Kennedy, might I ask one question ?
Zakman had the idea that there were about 30,000 taxi drivers in
New York City, and you mentioned the figure of 4,000 or 5,000 hav-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3621
ing been gathered into all of these paper locals. Were the others
organized into other unions ?
Mr. Kennedy. Now, as I say, the taxicab drive was abandoned in
1953 because of the efforts of George Meany. That was turned over to
the teamsters. Whatever union members they had at that time were
turned over to the teamsters.
The local 102 of the taxicab drivers disappeared and their char-
ter disappeared. These other miions, out of the 15 unions, only 6
or 7 of them really got into operation. Some of them were closed
up within a short period of time because of extortions, and other im-
proper practices. All in all, they only had 4,000 or 5,000 members.
Senator Curtis. How could they finance all of this with dues from
5,000 members?
Mr. Kennedy. They didn't make any accounting, and the members
were paying dues.
Senator Curtis. The fact is that they were collecting money from
other sources, from unlawful activities ?
Mr. Kennedy. There was some income coming every month from
these members. As you will see from the witnesses, there wasn't much
searching to be done for the union members. They were just receiving
the union members' dues, and they didn't have a great number of
expenses.
Senator Goldwater. Do you have any testimony from management
that would give you any idea as to the amount of extortion that is
involved in this particular operation, that is extortion such as we have
just heard about in the case of Mr. Chester?
Mr. Kennedy. There are a number of extortions which we will
bring out, but even more prevalent was the sweetheart contract, the
deal made between management and these union officials, to the detri-
ment of the members. Most of this occurred where the union members
were illiterate, or people that had just come to the United States.
Most of it centered around the Puerto Ricans and the Negroes in New
York City. Those people were not aware of what their rights were
and were not aware often of the fact that they were even organized
or that they even had a union. They never even met their union
officials. So it was more of that kind of a thing, and the management
would say, "Well, I will pay you $100 a month and we will mark it off
as dues in our books," and the members would never know about it.
We will show that they were paying dues for people that didn't
even exist, because they had made an arrangement to charge it in their
books that so and so Avas paid and so and so might have left the
employment 6 months earlier.
We will show where there were contracts which guaranteed a wage
scale of 75 cents an hour when the minimum wage was $1.
Senator Goldwater. Do you suspect that you will be able to bring
out that there were similar manipulations with welfare funds?
Mr. Kennedy. Not to that extent ; no.
Senator Goldwater. Or payments into welfare funds ?
Mr. Kennedy. No.
Senator Goldwater. Now I have one more question on this extor-
tion. Is there evidence to show that this extorted money went into
the union coffers, or did it go into the pockets of the individuals?
Mr. Kennedy. We believe it went into the pockets of individuals.
3622 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Goldwater. That would be a natural assumption, but I
was trying to develop some sources of money to answer Senator Cur-
tis' question.
Mr. Kennedy. I am sure that these Imion officials, if they didn't
keep the money, would be glad to answer the questions when they are
asked about it.
Senator Goldwater. That is fine.
Mr. Kennedy. So, in 1954, Johnny Dio allegedly, or supposedly,
resigned from the union. It was shortly after, in October, on Octo-
ber 11, 1954, that he met with Jimmy Hoifa in New York City, and
in front of the press at that time Mr. Hoffa put his arms around him,
and Johnny Dio said, "I am looking for a job, Jimmy." And Jimmy
said, "Any time you want a job, Johnny, you can come to me."
During 1955, Johnny Dio remained, in fact, in control — or his lieu-
tenants remained in control — of the operations of the UAW.
Xow, I would like to move to another chart here.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions about this one?
All right, proceed.
Senator Goldwater. Did not Jimmy Hoffa make a remark after the
trial downtown to somebody that if he wanted a job to come and see
him ?
Mr. Kennedy. I believe he did.
Senator Goldwater. That was not a juror, was it?
Mr. Kennedy. I guess it was, Senator. I just knoAV what I i-ead
in the paper and I wasn't there.
Senator Goldwait.r. T just cannot quite recall it, but when you men-
tioned that he told Johnny Dio that he could have a job at any time, it
rang a bell and the bell said that he made a similar remark downtown
after the trial. I did not remember whether he made it to a juror
or not.
Mr. Kennedy, 1 don't know.
Senator McNamara. As reported in the local papers, he made it to
a juror. That is the way I recall it, Senator.
Senator Goldwater. Between Joe Louis and John Dio, they come in
mighty handy.
The Chairman. Let the next chart being presented by counsel be
published in the record. Are they so connected that they need to be
tied together ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
The Cilvirman. I suggest, then, to the reporter you refer back to
the previous page, and it will be found on that page, so that the two
may be printed in the record on adjoining pages so the connection can
be apparent to those who read the record. It will be found on
page 3611.
Mr. Kennedy. Now we come back to joint council 16, Mr. Chair-
maiL "We discussed that briefly at the beginning.
Early in 1956 there was an election in New York City for the control
of joint council 16. The election was between Mr. John O'Bourke and
Mr. ISIartin Lacey. Martin Lacey had been the incumbent and he
had been president of the joint council 16 in New York City.
The Chairman. Now we are back to the teamsters ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes ; and we will show the connection between these
two in just a moment.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3623
The election was expected to be very close as to who would control
the Teamsters Joint Council in New York City.
In early December of 1955, the joint council 16 in New York City
received letters from seven different locals that they never knew
existed, asking to be seated at the joint council. Now, each local in
the joint council, in the voting for the joint council president, has
seven votes. A local has 7 votes no matter whether they have no
members or whether they have 10,000 or 11,000 members and they still
have 7 votes.
The Chairman. That is in the election of officers of the council?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. So on the eve of the election, the joint council
received notification that seven different locals that they never knew
existed suddenly requested permission to affiliate with the joint council,
and, therefore, to vote in the coming election.
So Martin Lacey as head of the joint council at that time, wrote to
the international and asked for the applications of these various
locals that they had filed with the international and asked for the
history of it.
It had been agreed to earlier by the joint council and with the inter-
national that any locals that were to be chartered in the New York
area were to have the approval of the joint council and would have a
notification to a general oi'ganizer, Tom Plickey. These locals evi-
dently had been chartered, and we will show that they had been, with-
out the notification to the joint council and without notification to the
general organizer, the international organizer in that area. They
suddenly had been chartered down here in Washington by the inter-
national.
The Chairman. As I understand it, the head of the joint council,
Mr. Lacey, had never heard of them?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. They had no record of their existence?
Mr. IvENNEDY. That is correct.
The Chairman. And they had been chartered just previously and
without the usual procedure that had been established?
Mr. IvENNEDY. That is correct.
The Chairman. So that immediately preceding the election, those
seven locals wrote in and asked for recognition so they could be
seated and thus be eligible to vote in the election of the international
officers ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. That is correct.
We will show that the purpose of having a charter in these locals
was to influence the election in New York City for control of the
joint council. They have been chartered at first at the request of
Mr. James Hoffa and that request had been made to Mr. Einar Mohn
in the international headquarters here in Washington, D. C, and
those charters had been granted and given to the seven different lo-
cals.
Senator Curtis. I would like to ask what you mean by a charter is-
sued by international teamsters to these locals. Was that to a group
of workers who had organized a union, or to whom were they is-
sued ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, that is a license, really. It is a license under
the title of teamsters to go out and organize. Or if there is a group
3624 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
that wants to become affiliated with the teamsters or with any union,
it is a license to take them in under a particular charter.
Senator Curtis. Well, it is a license, then, to an organizer or to
an officer, is it not?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. In other words, there were not seven groups of
workers who had assembled themselves together and said, "We want
to affiliate with the International Teamsters Union"? That is not
the way they get a charter ?
Mr. Kennedy. That was not the procedure that was followed here.
If the charter was granted, ordinarily, there would be a group in
a particular area, say, for instance, within the teamsters jurisdiction,
that were unorganized and wanted a charter or wanted to become
affiliated. Or if there was an organizer who knew that there was some
work to be done in that particular area, or with that particular group
of plants, he would go to the joint council and he would say, "We
need a charter in this area and we don't have enough."
Senator Curtis, That was my conception of what a charter would
be.
Now, is that what was issued to these seven groups ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, that was not in this case.
Senator Curtis. You still call it a charter ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. It was a charter granted by the international, never-
theless. It was granted as if those circumstances that you have de-
scribed existed.
Senator Curtis. They received the same charter as if a group of
workers were applying for bona fide charters ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
Senator Curtis. And it was issued to organizers ?
Mr. Kennedy. I will show that in just a moment, to whom these
charters were issued.
Senator McNamara. You mentioned Einar Mohn. Did he have
authority to issue charters ?
Mr. Kennedy. Together with John English, there is an arrange-
ment made, and I think one since then, and between the two of them
under Dave Beck they can issue the charters.
Senator McNamara. In whose name was the charter issued?
Mr. Kennedy. Under Dave Beck's name.
Senator McNamara. President of the teamsters international ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. And Einar Mohn, where does he fit in, and
what was his title ?
Mr. Kennedy. He is a vice president and he is administrative as-
sistant to Dave Beck, and he plays a part in this, as does John English.
So the charters were granted by the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters, to these seven locals, and they bypassed the joint council
16, and bypassed the general organizer and international vice presi-
dent, Tom Hickey.
Now, the joint council requested the applicants, the application
cards of these charters, and who made the request for these charters.
They received a telegram back approximately a month later, which
would be early in January of 1957
Senator Kennedy, That would be 1956.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3625
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I am sorry. That these locals should be seated
and at the same time they did not send the applicants or the applica-
tion cards for these charters. So there was a great fuss raised about it
because the election obviously was going to be close between Mr.
Martin Lacey and Mr, John O'Rourke.
Mr. Tom Hickey who had opposed Jolmny Dioguardi earlier backed
Martin Lacey, and Jimmy Hoffa backed Mr. John O'Rourke for this
fight.
The election was held, and in addition to these 7 locals, which each
had 7 votes, there were 16 other votes that were in contest. Those
were 16 other votes contested. Dave Beck ruled that the 49 votes
of these locals, plus the 16 other votes, should be put in a little box
and separated and the people should vote, but they shouldn't be
counted unless they were going to influence the results of the election.
Senator McNamara. How do we get a figure like 16 if each local
union had 7 votes?
Mr. Kennedy. It will not play an important role in this and it is
rather a complicated matter.
Senator McNamara. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. There were some extortions, and people had been
out of their jobs and there was a question of who would represent the
local.
The election was held and Mr. Martin Lacey, without counting the
49 votes and without counting the 16 votes, won 192 to 181.
The election was held on February 14, 1956, and shortly thereafter
Mr. Dave Beck ruled that the 16 votes should be counted immediately.
Those 16 votes then gave the victory to Mr. John O'Rourke. Martin
Lacey then brought this into a court, and said that neither the 16
nor the 49 votes should be counted. The judge ruled to put an in-
junction against the International Brotherhood of Teamsters from
counting these votes and said it was obviously an attempt to influence
the result of the election of the New York Joint Council that these 7
locals had been chartered and that these other 16 votes had been
counted.
So the control of the joint council reverted back to Mr. Martin
Lacey.
I might say in connection with that, subsequently Mr. Martin Lacey
resigned or said he wouldn't run again and Mr. John O'Rourke has
taken over control of the joint council, and Mr. John O'Rourke is
Mr. James Hoffa's representative.
Tlie CiiAiR]MAN. Is Mr. O'Rourke presently the president ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. And Lacey has stepped out ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. Did he step out at an election time, or in between
elections ?
Mr. Kennedy. He stepped out prior to the election and said that
his health wasn't very good.
The Chairman. His health went bad?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Just for information in the record at this point,
how often do they hold elections ?
Mr. Kennedy. Every year.
The Chairman. Each year?
3626 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So he did not Last the year ?
Mr. Kennedy. No ; he did not. Well, you see, the court controversy
lasted during at least half of 1956, so when he finally regained con-
trol officially it was in the middle of 1956.
I might say in tliat connection, Mr. Chairman, that they both had
court costs of approximately $24,000 apiece, Martin Lacey versus
John O'Rourke, and, subsequently, the joint council voted to pay the
court costs of both of them. So union members dues were paid or
used to pay approximately $24,000 to John O'Rourke's attorney and
approximately $24,000 to Martin Lacey's attorney.
Senator Kennedy. How many members were represented by those
49 votes?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, now, these locals here had no members at all.
These five, 651, 258, 269, and 284, and 362 had no members at all.
Senator KenxVedy. That was 35 votes. How many votes were there
in the whole joint council?
Mr. Kennedy. There were 380.
Senator Kennedy. So that would represent 125,000 members, and
now there were 35 votes which represented no members.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. But they still had the right to vote. Wliat
about the top two locals?
Mr. Kennedy. These two unions represented no new members, but
I would like to put on another chart and show you what happened.
Senator McNamara. Before you leave that chart, who is the man
in control of 295 ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is John McNamara.
The Chairman. As we present the next chart, I will ask the re-
porter to have it placed in between the other two, already printed
previously. It will be found on page 3611.
May I ask counsel if the three charts pieced together now com-
pletes the picture with respect to this operation ?
Mr. Kennedy. It completes the picture as far as the people are
concerned, the applicants on the charter, but we have another chart
we will put up to show what happened to the shops subsequently.
But this at least starts us off.
We were talking about the members of the locals. These five
locals had no members whatsoever, and they were so-called paper
locals, and they existed just on paper. I think these two locals had no
new members.
The Chairman. What do you mean by "no new members"?
Mr. Kennedy. There were transfers of certain shops from local
875 which is operated bj^ Kleinman, Berger, and Carmel, and there
were transfers of certain shops, refrigerator shops, over to local 275.
The Chairman. In other words, to set up locals 295 and 275, they
transferred out of another union segments of their members and
placed them in these two new ones?
Mr. Kennedy. Tliat is correct.
The Chairman. Whereas the other five appearing there on the chart
had no members at all ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir ; that is correct.
The Chairman. But in order to set up 2 more voting units of 7 votes
each, they transferred a group out of 1 union into a n<iw local ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3627
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Senator McXamara. When you say "refrigeration union,'' what do
you mean ? Are they installing refrigeration equipment, or what?
Mr. Kennedy. They are repairmen. That is, repairmen on refrig-
eration units.
Senator McNamara. Just service men. Is that it ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. The local 808 did the same thing. As to this
local 875, although these are the chief official officers, Mr. Chairman,
we will show that it is dominated and controlled by a man by the name
of Tony "Ducks"' Corallo, and that he is the actual one who operates
and controls this union. This local 808 transferred some air-freight
drivers ; some of those shops were transferred over to local 295.
Senator Curtis. I see that tliis Teamsters Local 875 that transferred
members and formed a new teamsters unit No. 275 has one of its
officers listed as "J. Berger.'' Is that the same Berger that was in 102
of the garment workers?
Mr. Kennedy. That is his brother, Jack Berger.
Senator Curtis. Xow, you said a minute ago that Sam Berger con-
tinued on in this activity until about 1956 or 1955.
Mr. Kennedy. No ; I did not mean to, if I did say that.
Senator Curtis. TMien did he drop out?
Mr. Kennedy. I said Johnny Dioguardi. Sam Zakman dropped
out shortly after.
Senator Curtis. I mean Berger.
Mr. Kennedy. Sam Berger dropped out shortly afterward from
Local 102 of the UAW. He stayed in as manager of Local 102 of the
IJjGWU until early 1957.
Senator Curtis. Wlien did he drop out of this apparatus ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, he remained very close to Johnny Dioguardi.
When Johnny Dioguardi ostensibly left the labor-union movement at
the end of 1954, he set up a labor-relations firm called Equitable Re-
search, and Sam Berger continued a close association with him, and
on occasion referred clients to him.
Senator Curtis. That was as late as when ?
Mr. Kennedy. In 1955.
Senator Curtis. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, the importance of these locals and the impor-
tance of what we have been discussing this morning as to the control of
Joint Council 16, is where the people that made up these locals, the
applicants, where they came from, and who they were, and what they
did. This overlay that we have put in here shows what occurred. As
I have said earlier, local 649 was really the parent local of all of the
rest of the operations in New York City of Johnny Dioguardi. He
was regional director and he operated out of local 649. That was his
own local, and he was president of that, and although he had res|>on-
sibilities in these other locals he brought in his closest friends in
local 649.
Joseph Curcio came down to local 269 and became secretary-treas-
urer, and he came from local 649 to local 269.
Harry Davidoff came from local 649 to local 258 of the teamsters,
and he became their secretary-treasurer.
Sydney Hodes came from local 649, down in here to local 284, and
he became the secretary-treasurer.
3628 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Abe Brier in local 649 came clown here to local 362, and he became
the secretary-treasurer.
The Chairman. You said they had no members.
Mr. Kennedy. They had no members.
The Chairman. There were no members and just these officers
named on paper without an}' dues-paying members?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Now, for instance in that connection, Senator, Sam Getlan, who
used to be in local 228 — and we will have more about that later —
became president and was put on as president of local 258. When we
interviewed him over the period of the last few months, he not only
did not know he was in the union, he not only did not know he was
president or knew he was in the union, yet he was listed as the presi-
dent of local 258. He never even heard of local 258, let alone being
president of the union.
That same situation was followed in many of these other locals, and
many of these other people. We have people who voted in the joint
council election who never even knew they were members of the union,
let alone voting in the election.
The Chairman. They voted them although they were not members
of the union and they did not even know that they were delegates.
Mr. Kennedy. One fellow said he was standing outside in the bar
and he had been drinking, and somebody came up and said, "Come on,
we are to vote." And they went down and he said there was an awful
lot of people around, and we showed him the chart showing that he
had voted in the election, and he said, "Well, I went there. Maybe I
voted."
But the main officials, the chief officials of local 649 came down into
these four locals. They were the key officials in those.
In local 051, the president or secretary-treasurer of that local was
Nat Gordon. Now, Nat Gordon runs a liquor store, and he is a brother
of Abe Gordon, who is a teamster union official and who is a very close
associate of Johnny Dioguardi. Abe Gordon, his brother, not only is
a teamster union official but he also runs a trucking company.
Now, you can see the officers over here in local 224, whose names were
used on the application blanks for local 269. These are officers and
charter members of local 224 who were used in local 269.
The Chairman. Do they have to have a certain number of members
before they can get a charter ?
Mr. Kennedy. No ; they did not. They had no members at all.
The Chairman. I understand they had no members, but you said
they were used on the charter.
Mr. Kennedy. Under the teamster constitution, seven members are
required to get a charter.
The Chairman. So they just used officers in these other unions to
make uy, the so-called membership to get a charter ?
3,[r. Kennedy. That is correct. These officers and applicants on the
charter of 227 came over into local 284 of the teamsters.
Local 355 officers came over here and became applicants for local
362. As I said, and as we will develop, some of these people never
even knew they were on the applications.
Subsequently, these people in local 224 that came over here as appli-
cants on local 269 ended up here in local 362. They never were active
in 269 but they ended up in local 362 of the teamsters.
EMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3629
The people that came over here from local 355 to local 362 never
were active in 362, and they now run an independent union over in
355.
You can see Sydney Hodes came out of local 649, and he was an
officer in 649 and he was also an officer in local 228. However, local
2'28 of the UAW-AFL had had its charter lifted supposedly, back in
1955, and this union should not even have been in existence at that
time. The charter according to their records of the international had
been lifted, but we will be able to show that that charter was active
under a number of different people after that time. We call it the
"bouncing charter" because it bounced from person to person, and
was given to various people so that they could organize in their par-
ticular district.
The last time it was handed out, this UAW-AFL charter was
handed out by a teamster official.
Sydney Hodes, who was an officer supposedly down here in local
228, and also in 649, ended up in three different unions. His name
ended up in three different unions, and he was here as president of
local 258, and he was here as secretary-treasurer in local 284, and he
was here as president of local 362. All during this period of time that
was true.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the chief
counsel at what point did this United Automobile Workers AFL go
out of business ? I understand they are no longer in business.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes ; they are still in business, except under the name
of the Allied Industrial Workers of America.
Senator McNamara. The same officials?
Mr. Kennedy. Except for Anthony Doria, who has left with
$60,000.
Senator McXamara. Then generally, it is the same setup and the
only thing changed is the name.
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Senator McNaiviara. And they changed it themselves, or who did?
Mr. Kennedy. After the merger of tlie AFL-CIO, it was decided
that they should not have two T^AW's, and Mr. Reutlier kept his or-
ganization, and the UAW-AFL changed to the Allied Industrial
Workers of America.
Senator McNamara. And they are affiliated with the AFL, Meany's
organization?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Now, another confusing part is local 651, and local 362 gave as
their address in the applications, the old address of local 228, when in
fact they were never there.
The Chairman. Both of them gave that address ?
Mr. Kennedy. Gave this address of old 228, where 228 was no longer
in existence, when in fact they operated out of local 649.
651 gave a nonexistent address. Local 258 gave the new address of
local 228, when in fact they operated out of local 649.
It would appear to us, at least, to have been a mad dash at the last
moment to try to get names for various locals, and give them addresses,
and there was some confusion on this.
3630 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. This was a power fight, in other words, internal
union power fight, and the interests for O'Rourke undertook this pro-
cedure in order to get control of the joint counciL
Mr. Kennedy. Which controls all of these things that we have dis-
cussed earlier.
Senator McNamara. Were these charters all issued on the same
day, Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, all on November 8, 1956.
The Chairman. I hope we will get proper pictures of these so
that those who read this may follow it.
Mr. Kennedy. This other overlay that we have put on, Mr. Chair-
man, shows when the stationery was ordered to make these applica-
tions. We have traced down the shop where the stationery was
ordered that sent the applications into the International Brotherhood
of Teamsters.
The Chairman. You mean the letterheads for these locals, these
paper locals ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right, and we found that the bills of 362,
869, 358, and 651 were all sent to local 649.
Now, subsequently, during July of 1956, there had been a great deal
in the press about this battle for control of joint council 16 and also,
the court case between John O'Rourke and Martin Lacey. So these
locals decided that they had better get some members in their various
locals, so what they did was transfer some shops, and without the
concurrence of any of the members of the locals.
Harry Davidoff brought certain of his shops that he felt belonged
to him and he brought them down into local 258. So they came out
of local 649. They came down with him to 258. Certain of those
shops of Joe Curcio, he took out of local 649 and he brought them
down to local 269.
The shops of local 250, even though the officers had become charter
members of local 258, the shops of local 250 came down here to
local 362.
Senator Curtis. By shops, you mean their membership?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, their membership.
Senator Curtis. Who decided that ?
Mr. Kennedy. They decided it, Joe Curcio, Harry Davidoff, and
Sidney Hodes and Brier, and Johnny Dio.
Senator Curtis. The members did not decide it ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. And did the employer cancel out one contract,
and enter into a new contract with the new union ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. He was just notified that the change had been
made from the UAW to the teamsters.
Senator McNamara. Do they come down in great numbers or in
very small numbers?
Mr. Kennedy. They brought all of their shops, ultimately, down
into these locals.
Senator McNamara. Did they amount to 100 generally, or more?
Mr. Kennedy. How many different shops you mean?
Senator McNamara. How many men were transferred from 649
to 362?
Mr. Kennedy. All of the shops altogether, had about four or five
thousand members.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3631
Senator McNamara. And there would be hundreds in each one
of these mstances ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. We will show if we have time, the type of
shops that they had.
Local 227 transferred their shops to local 284. Local 355 re-
mained independent, and local 228 supposedly was not even in exist-
ence. Local 651 never got any shops and it is still a paper organiza-
tion. It really does not exist.
These two locals continued in operation.
Senator Curtis. Now, how much concurrence was there with the
teamsters' international officers in the transfer of these shops, or I
prefer to call them transfer of union members because they were
moved about like they were chessmen.
Mr. Kennedy. Under the constitution, I do not believe they have
any control over the matter. It is up to the local autonomy. These
individuals decided these members shovdd be transferred and they
were transferred.
Senator Curtis. But were they in on the operation?
Mr. Kennedy. You mean in 1956 ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. I do not know.
The Chairman. Is there any further explanation of that chart?
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Counsel, are you going to show later on
who was the guiding force behind all of these transfers, and are you
saying it was Mr. Dio?
Mr. Kennedy. Based on this chart, and based on the operations,
these were people that were transferred, and they were all people
that Johnny Dio brought into the labor movement after 1950.
These were people that he brought in and he was responsible for.
The chief operation which this happened under came out of local 469.
That was his local. Those people were answerable to him.
Again, because Jimmy Hoffa had this close personal relationship
Avith Johnny Dio, and Jimmy Hoffa was anxious to oust Tom Hickey
from any position of power in New York City, they were bitter
enemies. Tom Hickey was backing Martin Lacey, and this would
have been the means whereby to do it and get these charters and
have them vote in the election and overturn the Martin Lacey group
and gain control.
That was the operation that was done, and these people that came
over were all Johnny Dio's people.
That is, with the exception of 875, which was run by another
hoodlum and gangster, Mr. Tony Ducks Carello, who controlled this
union and other unions. John McNamara was also very close to
Jimmy Hoffa and also responsible for local 295.
Mr. Chairman, we have a chart here showing the kind of people
or the kind of shops that existed for these various locals.
The C'HAntMAN. It mav be presented and printed at this point in
the record.
3632
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(The chart is as follows :)
Types of Shops Organized by United Auto Workers, ALF Amalgamated
Locals in Metropolitan New York
LOCAL 224
Refrigeration repairmen
Car washes
Restaurant equipment manufacturer
Paper products
Box manufacturer
Stone setter
Embroidery manufacturer
Lamp manufacturer
Lead-pipe manufacturer
Breadbaker
Comic-book publisher
Mop manufacturer
Toy manufacturer
Wliolesale soap
Thread distributor
Tfiiletries manufacturer
LOCAL 22 7
Chemical plant
Vitamin-pill maker
Glass dealers
Plastic-bag company
Leather embossers
Paper products
Handbag manufacturer
Wallet manufacturer
Envelope company
Hobby store
Converters
Hardware manufacturer
Rubber-products company
Service stations
Heating contractor
Paint company
LOCAL 355
Electric-broiler manufacturer
Quilting manufacturer
Bias.binding company
Hotel
Electrical-parts manufacturer
Linen shop
Drugstore
Oil companies
LOCAL 250
Dog-food maker
Ballpoint pens
Optical company
Printer
Notebook manufacturer
Crucifix plater
Brassworks
Mattressmaker
Textile manufacturer
Beltmaker
Zipper manufacturer
TV antennas
Discount house
Electric shop
Steel plant
Candle and crayon company
Jewelry shop
Buttonmaker
Screw manufacturer
Candymaker
New-car sales
Yarn spinner and twister
Packaging company
Screw-machine manufacturer
Ball-bearing company
Toilet-seat reeonditioner
Draperies maker
Dry cleaner
Coffee roaster
Aircraft-parts manufacturer
IXJCAL 649
Plastic-novelties manufacturer
Rayon processor
Christmas tree lights
Dry cleaner
Electroplaters
Printer
X-ray company
Paint company
Machine shop
Papermaker
Wood products
Truck renter
Importers
Soapmaker
Chemical works
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3633
Mr. Kennedy. So when these shops were transferred, they are
hardly clearly within the jurisdiction of the teamsters union.
The Chairman. What are they?
Mr. Kennedy. They are not clearly within the jurisdiction of the
teamsters union.
For instance, here local 260, a dog-food maker, a notebook manu-
facturer, a crucifix plater, a screw-machine manufacturer and a toilet-
seat reconditioner.
The Chairman. Those became members of the teamsters?
Mr. Kennedy. These are the charts. These were the people here
that had these shops and these were the shops that were transferred
over. There is a plastic bag company, and handbag manufacturer
and wallet manufacturer and a hobby store.
The Chairman. They all became members of the teamsters ?
Mr. Kennedy. These shops were transferred over. Their officials,
and the applicants on their charters, set up these charters, were used
as the applicants on the teamsters union charters, and subsequently
when there was a great hue and cry about it in New York City, these
shops were transferred over in 1956.
Curcio brought his shops down to 269 and Davidoff brought them
to 258, and they set up this operation.
The Chairman. I see on there Christmas tree lights. What does
that have to do with the teamsters union? And there are also dry
cleaners.
Mr. Kennedy. Admittedly the teamsters have broad jurisdiction
because they say that anything that moves is in their jurisdiction and
anything that affects any teamster organization is in their jurisdiction.
The Chairman. And some soapmakers. That is where they were
organized and they were unionized and those are the ones that were
transferred into these paper locals, after the manipulation had been
discovered and exposed.
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Now, Mr. Chairman, we have just one more chart and then we are
finished. That will give the type of people that were involved in this,
that Johnny Dio and Tony Ducks brought into the labor movement
since 1951 or 1952.
They played an important role in the control of joint council 16 in
New York City.
The Chairman. This chart the counsel is now presenting may be
printed in the record at this point.
89330— 57— pt. 10 4
3634
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(The chart is as follows:)
lAst of indictments or convictions for offenses committed by individuals in their
capacity as officials of unions which were dominated or controlled by Anthony
"Ducks" Corallo or Johnny "Dio" Dioguardi
Local
ASUiation
Name
Date of
indict-
ment
Charge
Disposition
649
649
198
198
875
875
875
875
875
405
405
405
405
405
295
295
295
239
227
227
227
239
239
522
522
522
239
239
United Auto Work-
ers, AFL.
.-..do
..._do
....do
Teamsters.
-...do
-...do
-do.
-do.
-do.
Retail Clerks Inter-
national Associa.
tion.
.-..do
do
do
do
Teamsters.
do
.do.
United Auto Work-
ers, AFL.
.do.,
-do.-
Teamsters.
do
do
do
do
.do.
.do-
Anthony Topazio, secretary-
treasurer.
Joseph Cohen
George Cohen, organizer
Henry Gasster, president
Nathan Carmel, vice president. .-
Jack Berger, president
Aaron ICletnman, secretary-treas-
urer.
Milton Levine, organizer 875, and
president, local 275.
Jack Priore, organizer
Sam Zaber, organizer 875, and
local, 275 teamsters.
Max Chester, secretary-treasurer.
Manny Fink, business repre-
sentative.
Max Lees, president
Irving Slutsky, vice president —
Phihp Brody, organizer
John Dioguardi
John McNamara, secretary-treas-
urer.
MOton Holt, secietary-treasurer,
805.
Sam Goldstein, president
Afthm' Santa Maria, secretary-
treasurer.
Domlnick Santa Maria, trustee...
David Consentino, president,
Local 248, IBT.
Max Chester
John Dioguardi
Alfred Reger, secretary-treasurer
Burle Michaelson
Harry Davidoff, secretary-treas-
surer. Local 258, IBT.
Sam Goldstein, president
Phillip Goldberg
July 1952
July 1952
1953
1953
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1956
1957
1957
1957
1957
1957
1957
1957
1957
1957
1957
1957
Extortion
--do
..do
.-do'
--do
--do
-.-do
--do
..do
..do
--do
-do
--do
.-do
.-.do -.
...do
...do
Perjury...
Bribery...
Conspir-
acy, for-
gery,
larceny.
...do
.-.do
Bribery..
...do
Extortion
...do
—do
...do.
...do-
Convicted, 1953.
Do.
Convicted, 1954.
Dismissed.!
Convicted, 1957.
Do.
Do.
Pending.
Do.
Do.
Convicted, 1956.
Do.
Pending.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Convicted, 1957.
Pending.
Do.
Do.
Convicted, 1957.
Do.
Do.
Pending.
Do.
Do.
Do.
1 Cohen refused to testify.
Senator Curtis. The thing that disturbs me, and you perhaps can-
not answer it right now, is that even though these miion had not been
controlled by hoodlums and bad cliaracters, I am astounded that good
men, good officers, might be able to transfer members from one union
to another just at will.
The impression that I get after listening to the investigation of the
teamsters and the textile workers and the bakers is that these of-
ficers assume a certain proprietary interest in their members. They
use their members for their advantage and gain.
Mr. Kennedy. This is a list of indictments and convictions for of-
fenses committed by individuals in their capacity as officials of the
unions which were dominated or influenced by Anthony "Ducks"
Corallo or Johnny Dioguardi.
These were people that they were responsible for and these are
offenses and indictments and convictions that have happened since they
came into the labor-union movement or were brought into the labor-
union movement by Jolinny Dio or Tony Ducks.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3635
This is not their total criminal records. We will develop that
later on, but this is since the time that these people have come in.
The Chairman. In other words, the law violation records that this
chart exhibits, all of those violations are alleged violations which oc-
curred since they were brouoht into the union by Johnny Dioguardi.
Mr. Kennedy. And Anthony Ducks, yes, that is correct.
Now, most of this, and I would think virtually all of it, is through
the efforts of Mr. Hogan, and his office in New York City, who, as I
have said earlier, has been on top of this continuously and doing a
tremendous amount of work in New York City.
Through his efforts these people have been indicted and some
of them convicted. They were people brought into the labor-union
movement in the manner w^e described. These are people who played
such an important part in the tight to control Council IG.
The Chairman. Are they still in the labor-union movement?
Mr. Kennedy. Some of them are, and we will develop that.
The Chairman. In the course of the testimony ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir, and what has been their relationship with
their union while they served time in prison.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions?
Now, does this conclude your presentation of what we may term our
opening remarks here this morning, so as to get this whole hearing in
proper perspective?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Tlie important thing is that we have these
Avitnesses down from management and from these various unions and
it is not just to have them recite a particular event, but it is in this
picture and the part that they played.
It might be just 1 man who was involved with 5 or 6 people, but
this can be multiplied a tliousandfold by this kind of an operation,
it has such a great and tremendous influence.
If people who control these unions are gangsters or hoodlums, and
the head of the joint council 16 is a gangster or hoodlum or has an
obligation or a responsibility or owes a debt to any gangsters or hood-
lums, then, of course, the operations in the city of New York or in
other big metropolitan areas are jeopardized.
Tlie Chairman. Are there any further questions before we recess?
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, the hearing in the above-entitled matter was recessed
at 12 : 20 p. m., to reconvene at 2 p. m., of the same day.)
afternoon SESSION
(Members present at the convening of the afternoon session:
Senators McClellan, Ives, and Kennedy.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Call your first witness, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. ]Mr. Sam Zakman, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Zakman, come forward, please.
Put up your right hand and be sworn.
You do solemnly swear tliat the evidence you shall give before this
Senate Select Committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Zakman. I do.
3636 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL ZAKMAN
The Chairman. Mr. Zakman, state your name, your place of resi-
dence, and your business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Zakjian. My name is Samuel Zakman. I live at 9 Anvil Lane,.
Levittown, N. Y.
I am at the present employed in a lampshade factory in New York
City.
The Chairman. Ha\e you talked to members of the staff of the com-
mittee regarding your testimony ?
Mr. Zakbian. Ves, sir.
The Chairman. You know generally, then, the line of questions to
expect ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know you have the right to have counsel
present while you testify to advise you of your legal rights under the
law?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you waive counsel, Mr. Zakman?
Mr. Zakman. At this time, I do, sir.
Tlie Chairman. At this time you do. All right.
Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, this afternoon we are going to have
at least two witnesses on local 102 of the UAW-AFL, which appears
over on the far left on this chart, the origin and the beginning of
Mr. Johnny Dio's entrance back into the labor movement in 1950.
Mr. Sam Zakman will be the first witness as he was the first presi-
dent of local 102 of the UAAV-AFL, and then we will trace witli him
how he got the chartei- and what his experiences were with Mr. Dio..
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Zakman, can you tell the committee a little bit
of your background, where you were born ?
Mr. Zakman. I was born in Russia.
Mr. Kennedy. How old were you when you came to this country?
Mr. Zakman. I was about 7 years old.
Mr. Kennedy. And you came to New York City at that time?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have been living in New York City ever
since ?
Mr. Zakman. Most of the time.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you first get into the labor — first, when
were you born ? What was your birth date ?
Mr. Zakman. May 8, 1913.
Mr. Kennedy. 1913. Wlien did you first get into the labor-union
movement ?
Mr. Zakman. Sometime during the early 1930's.
Mr. Kennedy. In what role, what position ?
Mr. Zakman. Sort of a volunteer organizer.
Mr. Kennedy. A volunteer organizer?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, before we get further, may I ask a.
question ?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3637
Senator Ives. Mr. Zakman, were you educated in the public-school
system of New York City ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. How far did you get in school ?
Mr. Zakman. Junior high school.
Senator Ives. Junior high school ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Are your parents both living?
Mr. Zakman. Only my mother.
Senator Ives. Wlien did your father die ?
Mr. Zakman. I was about 10 yeare old.
Senator Ives. ^Vlien you were about 10 years old ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. And you were left to support your mother at that
time ?
Mr. Zakman. I was left, my brother and my sister.
Senator I^'ES. ^Yho supported the family ?
Mr. Zakman. We all had to work at an early age.
Senator Ives. You all had to work at that time, is that it?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator I\tes. From that time on ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator I\t.s. And still you got through junior high school, is
that it?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. You say in the 1930's you were a volunteer organ-
izer ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. For what unions, and what did tli;<t position entail?
Mr. Zakman. The Beauty Culturist Union, local 561, I believe.
Mr. Kennedy. Beauty
Mr. Zakman. Beauty culturist union, beauty operators.
Mr. Kennedy. You were organizing in that?
Mr. Zakman. We were organizing beauticians throughout the
Bronx.
Mr. Kennedy. You were a volunteer, were you ?
Mr. Zakman. At the beginning I was.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you get paid ?
Mr. Zakman. $10 a week expenses.
Mr. Kennedy. A^Hiat was your other source of income during that
period ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, things were pretty bad. It was during the
depression. When I got a day's work in the shop or a couple of days
work, I would go to work, and in my spare time I would help the
union organize.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have much luck organizing the beauticians
in the Bronx?
Mr. Zakman. It was pretty rough in those days, but we managed
to organize them until it became an established local.
Mr. Kennedy. AVliat local was that?
Mr. Zakman. I believe it was 561.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you do work for any other unions ?
3638 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Zakman. Since then?
Mr. Kennedy. No ; during that period of time.
Mr. Zakman. On 1 or 2 occasions I helped the drug employees
union.
Mr. Kennedy. Again on a volunteer basis ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr, Kennedy. Would you get your expenses ? Is that all ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir ; there wasn't any expenses in those days.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, were you a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Zakman. No; during that period of time I was a member of
the Young Communist League.
Mr. Kennedy. The Young Communist League. When had you
joined that, Mr. Zakman ?
Mr. Zakman. Around 1930, or so.
Mr. Kennedy. When you were about 17 or 18 years old ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Then did you ultimately become a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. "VAHien did vou become a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Zakman. Around 1937.
Mr. Kennedy. 1937 ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any position with the Communist
Party?
Mr. Zakman. I was a party organizer for a time.
Mr. Kennedy, In the New York area ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. New York City ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you also go to Spain ?
Mr. Zakman. I did.
Mr. Kennedy, Would you tell us about that ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, in September, sometime during the month of
September 1937, 1 went to Spain as a member of the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade. I was in Spain for 16 months, and came home around —
somewhere around Christmas of 1938.
Mr. Kennedy. You stayed there about 16 months?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any position with the Abraham
Lincoln Brigade?
Mr. Zakman. I was a commissar.
Mr, Kennedy. You were a commissar?
Mr. Zakman. Right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What are the responsibilities of a commissar?
Mr. Zakman. Well, a commissar is sort of a political adviser. He
holds the same military rank as the highest military officer of his par-
ticular company. At one stage, the head of our company was a
sergeant. That made me, militarily, a sergeant. Later c>n, the head
of the company became a captain, so I received the same pay as a
captain, except that a commissar has more authority than Ihe military
commander.
IMPROPER ACTIVrTIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3639
Mr. Kennedy. You say it has more authority ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You would advise hhn? You would advise the
captain or advise the sergeant ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, the commissars would have their own meetings
and more or less tell the captains.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a commissar for each captain ?
Mr. Zakman. There was a commissar for each company and a
commissar over the commissars.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you returned to the United States. Did you
go back into the labor-union movement then ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, not immediately. I worked in various indus-
tries. Of course if there was a strike in my particular industry, I
would help out. Sometime in 1942 I started to work for Local 259
of the TTAW-CIO on a full-time basis.
The Chairman. 1952?
Mr. Zakman. 1942, sir.
(At this point, Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Was that the local headed by Mickey Finn ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened after that?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I worked there until, I believe, sometime in
1945 and after that, for awhile, I didn't work for any union.
Then I went to work for, I believe it was, Local 642 of the United
Auto Workers.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you not with the Hotel and Restaurant Work-
ers International Union for a while?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Kennedy. That is local 254 of the AFL?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
The Chairman. Senator Ives?
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Zakman a
few questions about his connection with the Communist Party.
I understand that you are no longer a Communist.
Mr. Zakman. That is right, sir.
Senator I\t.s. I do not think that has yet been develoi)ed in the
questioning, though I assume it would be.
I would like to ask you a couple of questions in that connection.
You were in your teens when you became affiliated with the Young
Communist League. "Wliy did you do that? Wliat attracted you
about it? At that time, I take it, you were in junior high school,
or were you out of high school ?
Mr. Zakman. Just about out of high school.
Senator Ives. What caused you to go into the Young Communist
League ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, there was no work. I was the same as any
other young fellow. Most of the people I associated with in my
neighborhood were either members of the Young Communist League
or their parents were Communists. I listened to a lot of talk.
Senator Ix^s. Do you mean that that area of New York City was
pretty well populated with Communists?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
(At this point. Senator Kennedy withdrew from the hearing
room.)
3640 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. "Wliat area?
Senator Ia^es. What part of New York was that ?
Mr. Zakman. That was the Bronx.
Senator Ives. The Bronx?
Mr. Zakman. Right.
Senator I^^s. I was never given to understand that the Bronx was
communistic.
Mr. Zakman. Well, not the entire Bronx, but around Wilkins
Avenue there were plenty.
Senator Ives. That is a little different.
Go ahead. Then you went into the Communist Party. Wliy did
you do that ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, actually, I didn't go into the Communist Party.
Wlien I went to Spain they sort of graduated me into the Communist
Party.
Senator Ives. You graduated into the Communist Party ? In other
words, you started out to be a Communist because you were sort of
desperate, you were unemployed and could not get work; is that it?
Mr. Zakman. That is right, sir.
Senator Ives. And you graduated into the Communist Party itself ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
Senator Ives. I follow you so far. Wliy did you leave the Com-
munist Party ? Wliat happened ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, actually, in a certain sense I broke with the
Communist Party because of things I saw in Spain, but I did not
make a complete break until sometime in 1945.
Senator Ives. In other words, you discovered the Communist Party
was not what you thought it was ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right, sir.
Senator Ives. And communism was not what you thought it was?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
Senator I^^es. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. We were up to 1945. You left the Communist
Party and you went with the Hotel and Restaurant Workers Interna-
tional Union, Local 254? You were with them for a while?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And then the UAW-CIO Local 642; is that right?
Mr. Zakman. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you went with the International Brotherhood
of Electrical Workers, Local 1614?
Mr. Zakman. Yes.
Mr. ICennedy. The secretary-treasurer of that was Milton Silver-
man?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What year is this we are up to about now ?
Mr. Zakman. The early part of 1949, 1 believe.
Mr. Kennedy. The early part of 1949. How long did you stay
then with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers?
Mr. Zakman. Slightly less than 1 year. Toward the end of 19 —
no. It was sometime in 1950.
Mr. I{j:nnedy. You left then sometime in 1950; is that right?
Mr. Zakman. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3641
Mr. IvENNEDY. During this period of 1950, while you were working
for the International Brotherhood of P^lectrical Workers, did you
have a conversation with Mr. Sam Beroer, manager of local 102 of
thelLGWTJ?
Mr. Zakman. a conversation pertaining to what, sir ^
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a conversation pertaining to getting
a charter for yourself, to organize ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sii'.
Mr. Kennedy. What position did you liave with the electrical
workers ?
Mr. Zakman. I was an organizer.
Mr. Kennedy. And you wanted a charter of your own ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And j^ou spoke to Sam Berger about that?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate to the committee the convei'sation
you had with Mr. Sam Berger ''i
Mr. Zakman. Well, I asked Mr. Berger if lie laiew anyone in the
United Automobile Workers, AFL. I "told him that I had worked
with the United Automobile Workers, CIO, and I felt that there
was room in New York for the AFL to move in since the CIO had not
organized the gasoline stations or thousands of workers in the garages
and other such workers. I felt that the AFL could do the job. I
told him that — rather, I asked him if he could possibly find out or
know anyone that could get me a charter, and I would be glad to
help organize a union to organize these industries.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to that (
Mr. Zakman. At that time he said he didn't kuow at the moment,
but if he ever finds out anything he will get in touch w^th me.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Why did you think Sam larger, of the Ladies'
Garment Workers Union, would be able to help you get a charter
with the United Automobile Workers, AFL?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I knew that in his position as the head of
his local, he would attend conventions where thei-e were other AFL
officials, and I felt that at one of these conventions he might meet
with some of the officers, and there he inight get into a conversation
and woidd find out foi- me.
Senator I\'es. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. I would like to ask Mr. Zakman what his actual trade
or profession is, if he has one outside of being an organizer or
commissar.
Mr. Zakman. I am a machinist, sir.
Senator Ives. You are a machinist?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator l\^s. How many years did you Avork at that profession
or trade ?
Mr. Zakman. I would say about 6 or 7 years, sir.
Senator Ives. Then you discovered you were more cut out to be an
organizer ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I always liked the organizing field.
Senator Ives. You were kind of successful at that; is that it?
Mr. Zakman. I wasn't very successful at it.
Senator Ives. Then why did you stay at it ?
3642 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Zakman. I just liked that type of work. I was younger, and I
had a family, and that was the type of work I liked.
Senator Ives. Yet you say you were not successful at it ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Ives. It is rather anomalous.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Identify Mr. Berger for us. What was he at the
time you had the conversation with him ?
Mr. Zakman. He was the manager of local 102.
The Chairman. The manager of local 102 ?
Mr. Zakman. Of the International Ladies' Garment Workers
Union.
The Chairman. What kind of a union ?
Mr. Zakman. International Ladies' Garment Workers Union, the
truck division.
Mr. Kennedy. Local 102 of the ILGWU, Ladies' Garment Workers
Union, does the trucking for the clothing manufacturers, is that right,
in New York City, the men's clothing manufacturers?
Mr. Zakman. I believe it is the ladies.
Mr. Kennedy. The lady clothing manufacturers; is that right?
Mr. Zakman. I believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he then talk to you again after you had this first
•conversation with him? Did he talk to you again about getting this
charter from the UAW-AFL, for you ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, some time passed between our first conversation,
and he called me up one day and asked me if I was still interested in
a charter, that it might be possible to secure one. I said I was. He
said he would let me know if anything further transpired.
Mr. Kennedy. And then did he bring you up on another occasion
and introduce you to some people ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he bring you to the Hampshire House?
Mr. Zakman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is a hotel in New York City ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he introduce you to some people at that time?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. To whom did he introduce you ?
Mr. Zakman. Mr. Paul Dorfman.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you understand Mr. Paul Dorfman was?
Mr. Zakman. I didn't know at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you found out since who Mr. Paul Dorfman is?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I read in the newspapers.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not know at all who his contacts were at
that time?
Mr. Zakman. At that time I did not know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss with Mr. Paul Dorfman the grant-
ing of this charter from the UAW-AFL?
Mr. Zakman. No, we didn't have much of a conversation. I was
introduced to him, and Berger said, "This is the young fellow that
would like to get a charter," and that was about more or less the
conversation.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand Mr. Dorfman had any connec-
tions at all with the UAW-AFL?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3643
Mr. Zak3iax. ^Vell, I assiuned he probably had some connections if
lie was able to get a charter.
Mr. Kennedy, Did you ever learn that he had any connections?
Mr. Zakman. Xo, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did 3^ou understand that he had a personal friend-
ship with Mr. Anthony Doria?
a\Ir. Zakman. No, I didn't know about any Mr. Anthony Doria at
that time.
Mr. Kennedy. But Mr. Berger brought you up to the Hampshire
House to introduce you to Mr. Paul Dorfman and discussed getting
this cliarter from the UAW-AFL?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, at this time, Mr. Paul Dorfman, and
.~ince that time, has had no official connection with the UAW-AFL.
Did you understand that following that. Mr. Berger made a trip
out to the international headquarters in Milwairkee, Wis., to try to
obtain this charter for you?
Mr. Zakisian. I didn't know where he went to get the charter, but
he called me up and said that a charter would be mailed to us from
the international.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand he went to Milwaukee, Wis., to
get that charter?
Mr. Zakman. Not at that time, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you learned since that time that he did ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, What reason would Mr. Sam Berger, the manager
of the htdies garment workers local, what reason would he have for
going to all of this work for you, Mr. Sam Zakman?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I know that I asked him for the charter. I
met him through a mutual acquaintance. I felt as one trade-union
leader to another trade-union man, that he was willing to back us,
since he had a powerful union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any official connection with him prior
to this time ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you know him well ?
Mr. Zakman. I had met him on a few occasions.
Not too well.
Mr. Kennedy. Yet he took this trip all the way out to Milwaukee,
Wis,, to get this charter for you ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, as I said before, I didn't know he was going
to take any trip, or how much inconvenience there would be incurred
in getting this particular charter.
Mr. Ivennedy. Have you learned since what he was going to get
out of getting this charter for you ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand at that time that he had a close
personal relationship with Mr. Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir. At that time I had never heard the name of
Johnny Dioguardi.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not know at this time his relationship with
Johnny Dioguardi, is that right ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
3644 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently he informed you that the charter
would be granted ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He mailed the charter to you?
Mr. Zakman. I think it was mailed to him.
Mr. I^nnedy. Who were the names that were going on the appli-
cation for the charter ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, the original application— we put our own
names down there and names of friends and relatives. We knew we
had to have about 15 or 16 names, and those are the names that
were on it.
The Chairman. Did you personally sign an application for a char-
ter?
Mr. Zakman. I believe I did, sir.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Zakman. I believe I did, sir.
The Chairman. Could you recognize your handwriting?
Mr. Zakman. I would.
The Chairman. I hand you here what purports to be a photo-
static copy of "Official application for charter of affiliation under the
jurisdiction of International Union, United Automobile Workers of
America." It appears to be dated September 12f, 1950. I ask you to
examine this document and see if you identify it as a photostatic
copy of the original which you signed.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir ; I signed this.
The Chairman. That document will be made exhibit 1.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 1," for reference-
and will be found in the appendix on p. 3969.)
The Chairman. Let the witness retain that copy for a moment.
I notice that the signatures on this application seem to be printed,,
all of them printed, rather than written. Is that your printed signa-
ture "Samuel Zakman" that appears third from the top?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who printed the other names on the application?
Mr. Zakman. I believe I printed some of them. Some I printed.
The Chairman. Some you printed ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Had the others whose names you printed been con-
tacted, and were they apprised of the fact that their names were being
used on this application as petitioners for the application?
Mr. Zakman. Some of them, to my knowledge, whose names I put
down there, I informed him about the fact. Some of tliem, I believe,
did not know.
The Chairman. You informed them before or after you printed
their names ?
Mr. Zakman. After, sir.
The Chairman. After you printed their names. Who was present
with you when this application was made out, and when you placed or
printed your name on it ?
Mr. Zakman. Mr. Berger, and George Semelmacher.
The Chairman. Mr. Berger, and George who?
Mr. Zakman. Semelmacher.
Mr. Kennedy. Semelmacher.
IMPROPER ACTrVirrES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3645
The Chairman. Was Paul Dorf man present ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did he authorize you to use his name ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who suggested the use of his name?
Mr. Zakman. It might have been 1 of the other 2 gentlemen; I
didn't.
The Chairman. You didn't. In other words, did you then sug-
gest some names that you could put on here ?
Mr. Zakman. I suggested some of the names.
The Chairman. And they suggested some of them. But the 3 of
you, Sam Berger, yourself, and Semelmacher, are the 3 who actuallj^
prepared this petition and printed the names on it ?
Mr. Zakman. 1 believe so, sir.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel. You may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. You have some of your relatives on there?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wlio are your relatives on that first original applica-
tion?
Mr. Zakman. Esposito, Dwyer, and Jangel.
Mr. Kennedy. John Dwyer, Albert Esposito, and who is the other
one ?
Mr. Zakman. Albert Jangel.
Mr. Kennedy. George Semelmacher, he has another name; does he
not?
Mr. Zakman. I believe it is Baker. He had his name changed.
Mr. Kennedy. Is Semelmacher the German name for Baker?
Mr. Zakman. I believe that is it.
Mr. Kennedy. So he is known as George Baker and also as George
Semelmacher; is that right?
Mr. Zakman. t believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. You have another name on here, Tlieodore Ray.
Who is Theodore Ray? Who suggested his name?
Mr. Zakinian. Well, I didn't, because I didn't know him at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know him after that?
Mr. Zakman. Y'es, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You met him ; did you ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He was an fissociate of Mr. Johnny Dio?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you understand that he is now under indictment
in New York?
Ml-. Zakman. Y^es, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. In connection with the throwing of the acid in Victor
Riesel's eyes?
Mr. Zakman. Y'es, sir.
Mr. Ken NED V. He is under indictment with Mr. Johnny Dioguardi ;
is that right?
Mr. Zakman. Tliat is right.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this : How long after you signed
this application, after you three printed those names on there, and
gave it to Sam Berger, was it before you got your charter?
Mr. Zakman. I would say a couple of weeks, maybe.
3646 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Was it during that period of time that Mr. Berger
is supposed to have made the trip to Milwaukee ?
Mr. Zakman. I wouldn't know about that, sir.
The Chairman. You wouldn't know about that?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You say you never knew that he actually made the
trip ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
The Chairman. He just told you. He called j^ou and told you that
the charter would be mailed to you?
Mr. Zakman. When we made this application out, he stiid we would
send it in and it w^ould be mailed to us.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, the application was made out Sej)-
tember 12 and they received a charter on September 18. 6 days later.
After you received the charter from the International Union.
UAW-AFL, did you, within a short time, meet Mr. Johnny Dio-
guardi ?
Mr. Zakman. I would say about a few weeks later.
Mr. Kennedy, AYliat were the circumstances surrounding your
meeting ? "\'\^io introduced you to Mr. Johnny Dio ?
Mr. Zakman. I believe it was Mr. Baker.
Mr. Kennedy. Known also as George Semelmaclier?
Mr. Zakman. I had to meet him. I met him down in a restaurant.
At that time he introduced me to Mr. Dio.
Mr. Kennedy. And what business was Mr. Dio in at that time ?
Mr. Zakman. I didn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he express an interest in your newly acquired
charter, local 102?
Mr. Zakman. No. When I was introduced to him, they told him
that I was the fellow that was going to organize the union, and he
said he was very glad to meet me. Then Baker told liim that he had
secured a headquarters, and he needed a downpayment or a couple of
months' rent, or something, and Mr, Dio then loaned him the money.
Mr. Kennedy, Dio then put up the money for your rent i
Mr. Zakman. Yes ; secured the headquarters.
Mr. Kennedy, You were supposed to do the organizing work.
After they secured the headquarters, which was a couple of weeks
after you got the charter, Mr, Dio put up the money for the rent for
your headquarters ; is that right ?
Mr, Zakman. That is right, sir.
Mr, Kennedy, Then you moved along. In October, did Mr. Dio
take an active interest in your local, your union, after that?
Mr, Zakman, Not at that time. The first few months he took na
active interest,
Mr, Kennedy, Did he put any money up during those first few
months ?
Mr, Zakman, Yes; from time to time he would loan us various
sums of money,
Mr, Kennedy. To finance your operation?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason was Johnny Dioguardi interested
in financing the operation of your union ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES ENT THE LABOR FIELD 3647
Mr. Zakman. Well, at that time I didn't know what he was in-
terested in. Wlien I was introduced to him, I was told that he
would loan us the money and as soon as we got enough in the treasury
we would pay him back. He was a friend of ours, and was to help
us.
Mr. KJENNEDT. Who was he a friend of? He wasn't a friend of
yours.
Mr. Zakman. Well, I hadn't known him.
Mr. Kennedy, Who was he a friend of ?
Mr. Zakman. He could have been a friend of Mr. Berger's or
Mr. Baker's.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that he was a friend of Mr.
Berger's or Mr. Baker's at that time ?
Mr. Zakman. I assumed so from the conversation.
Mr. Kennedy. You moved along and you started organizing some
shops ; did you ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Dio was financing the operation. Were
you getting a salary during this period of time?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that monej^ coming from Dio?
Mr. Zakman. Not all of it, because at that time we had a few
hundred members that came into the organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he advancing some of the money for your
expenses and salary?
Mr. Zakman. Some of it he was.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you go on and tell us what happened then?
Did he take any active control over the operation of the union?
Mr. Zakman. Not at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently?
Mr. Zakman. Subsequently; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have conversations preceding that with
him about the operation of the union?
Mr. Zakman. Well, he would frequently ask me questions, how
we were doing, or would ask me questions how I go about organiz-
ing shops. He took a normal interest that anybody would that in-
vested money in anything. He seemed to be very interested. I would
have discussions with him about how you go about organizing a
plant.
Senator Curtis. Tell us about that discussion. l^Hiat answer did
you give him as to how you would go about organizing a plant ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I told him that first you approach the people
in the plant and find out their grievances. Then you make up the
necessary propaganda, the leaflets. Then you attach application cards
to these leaflets. You appeal to the workers to join your local. You
tell the workers something about yourself in the leaflets. You tell
them about some of the things you have accomplished in other similar
situations in their industry. You ask them to send in the cards.
After that, then you sign a substantial number of the employees,
and you petition for an election. If you win, the employer is required
to sit down and negotiate a contract.
Senator Curtis. Did Johnny Dio agree with that method, or did he
suggest there were sometimes more rapid and direct methods?
3648 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Zakman. He made very few suggestions at that time. He used
to do a lot of listening and ask a lot of questions, but he didn't make
any suggestions that there were other ways.
Mr. Kennedy. You moved along into the end of 1950 and through
early 1951, Did he take any control over the operations then in early
1951?
(At this point, Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Zakman. "Well, he actually didn't take control until he became
business manager.
Mr. Kennedy. When did he become business manager?
Mr. ZakMan. To the best of my knowledge, I believe around June
1951.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to that time, did he have an office in your local ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, when we moved to the new headquarters, he
did have a place.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that, approximately ?
Mr. Zakman. That was, I believe, about a month prior to the time he
became business manager.
Mr. Kennedy. So that would have been about May of 1951 ?
Mr. Zakman. I believe around that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to that time, prior to the time you moved into
the new headquarters, had you received a new charter from the
international ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. While you are hunting that up, I would like to ask a
question of Mr. Zakman.
What was the membership of your union at the time that Dioguardi
took over?
Mr. Zakman. At the time he became business manager, sir?
Senator Ives. Yes.
Mr. Zakman. I would say about 700 or so, 700 members.
Senator Ives. What was the membership when he became presi-
dent, when he took it over entirely ?
Mr. Zakman. I wasn't in the organization at that time, sir.
Senator Ives. You were not a part of it?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Ives. That is as much as you know it ever was — 700 ?
Mr. Zakman. That is about what it was.
Senator Ives. What does that mean in the amount of dues paid?
What were the annual dues paid ?
Mr. Zakman. They paid $3 a month.
Senator Ives. $3 a month, $36 a year, for 700 ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right, sir.
Senator Ives. What was the initiation fee?
Mr. Zakman. It varied, from $2 to $25, depending upon the
situation.
Senator Ives. Wliy did it vary ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, if a shop was a tough shop to organize, and
the question of initiation would held back the workers from joining,
we would lower the initiation.
Senator Ives. It was a matter of convenience; is that it?
Mr. Zakman. No. It is a question of holding up the entire organ-
ization over the question of the few dollars of initiation.
Senator Ives. That is a pretty good thing, it seems to me.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3649
The Chairman. You spoke a while ago about the first charter you
received. That was what date ?
Mr. Kennedy. September 18, 1950.
The Chairman. September 18, 1950. Did you later apply for a
new charter?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. For the same local ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, What year did you apply for that?
Mr. Zakman. I believe it was the early part of 1951,
Mr. Kennedy. It was granted April 23, 1951, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You obtained your first charter September 18, 1950,
for local 102, and then you applied for your second charter, or for a
new charter, on April 23, 1951. Is that correct ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I hand you here what purports to be a photostatic
copy of the application for a new charter and ask you to examine it
and state whether you recognize it as a photostatic copy of the original.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Zakman. I believe it is a true copy, sir.
The Chairman. It is a true copy. That may be made exhibit No. 2.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 2" for refer-
ence, and will be found in the appendix on pp. 3970-3971.)
The Chairman. I note on this new application the following in
handwriting. It says, "Cancel old charter and reissue to above
names."
What new names are on this second application that were not on
the first?
Mr. Zakman. There are several new names, sir.
The (^HxMRman. There are several new names. Among them is
Johnny Dioguardi ; is that correct ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What do you note there with reference to Johnny
Dioguardi? Does it appear to you that his name has been circled
and a notation made at the top to send all correspondence to Johnny
Dioguardi ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that when he took over this union?
Mr. Zakman. This piece of correspondence, as it is right now, was
not called to my attention until much later. I had not seen it when
it went out. In fact, the first time I had ever seen the circling of
his name was when some of the investigator showed it to me.
The Chairman. In other words, when it went out, you did not know
it was going to be circled that way, and sent in in that fashion ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. I notice down at the bottom it says, "Charter
reissued 4-23-1951."
Did you ever see that writing on it before ?
Mr. Zakman. Not until the members of the committee showed it to
me, sir.
The Chairman. And I notice it says, "Have charter cover" and
this is in handwriting, and an arrow points down "Greater New York
and vicinity."
89330 — 57 — pt. 10 5
3650 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Was that handwriting on it when you applied for the new charter,
or when you reapplied for it?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. So what actually happened was when this appli-
cation went in for a new charter and was granted, apparently Johnny
Dio took over the whole operation. In other words, he became boss
of it?
Mr. Zakman. It was shortly thereafter that he became business
manager.
The Chairman. He became business manager as soon as the new
charter was issued?
Mr. Zakman. About a month afterward.
Mr. Kennedy. Ostensibly, you were still in charge of the union:
is that right?
Mr. Zakman. I was the president.
Mr. Kennedy. You were president of the union and Johnny
Dioguardi, first by financing your operations and then by moving in,
having an office, was gradually taking over control of the union from
you ; is that right ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: Did he suggest this new
charter business?
Mr. Zakman. No. This new charter business actually came up
during a discussion of the executive board, when, since we had mem-
bers now, it was felt that it was no more than fair that we put mem-
bers names on the charter.
The Chairman. Was Johnny Dioguardi a member at that time
of your union ?
Mr. Zakman. I believe he was a member of the union.
The Chairman. You believe he had joined in the meantime?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did he pay any initiation fee?
Mr. Zakman. Well, that actually wasn't my department. The
secretary-treasurer would know best. But in order to get a card, he
would have to.
The Chairman. You don't recall his having paid either $2 or $25,
do you ?
Mr. Zakman. No; I don't recall.
The Chairman. Did he work in any shop at that time?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. So he was neither eligible nor was he charged
aji initiation fee.
Senator Ives. Did he pay the $3 a month regular dues ?
Mr. Zakman. He paid his dues.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Also on this second charter, Mr. Chairman, there
is a notation saying, "April 22, 1955, Okay, Doria."
Doria at that time was secretary-treasurer of the international, is
that right? In 1951, I mean.
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Doria was secretary-treasurer of the international ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir
Senator Curtis. I would like to ask a question, Mr. Chairman.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3651
The Chairman. What Doria is that?
Mr. Kennedy. Anthony Doria, on the left hand side of the chart,
Doria, Washburn, and Heaton.
The Chairman. He was head of the union, was he, at that time?
Mr. Zakman. He was the international secretary-treasurer.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis,
Senator Curtis. On that application, I do not know whether the
witness can answer this question or not, but maybe the counsel can
advise me, this writino; and circling- directs all correspondence to be
carried on with John Dio^uardi. Wliat does the evidence show?
Was that on the application when it was submitted to the interna-
tional union, or does that lo} i'e:-int a decision made in the inter-
national union?
Mr. Kennedy. We believe. Senator, that it was a decision by the in-
ternational union, that the writing is Mr. Anthony Doria's writing.
Senator Curtis. In other words, it would reveal an understanding-
on the part of Anthony Doria as to what was taking place, that this
union was being tui'ued over to Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right. And this started with his financing
the union's operations in 1950 and continuing in the early part of 1951.
Then they put Johnny Dioguardi's name on the application, and made
a decision that all correspondence would be sent to Johnny Dioguardi.
At the same time, Mr. Sam Zakman was allegedly or supposedly still
head of the union and running the union.
The Chairman. Let me ask you a question.
After this charter was issued, was all correspondence from the
national headquarters of the international sent to Johnny Dioguardi?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I know I received correspondence from them
myself. They might have sent him a duplicate of all correspondence,
whether it was to himself or anyone else. I also received correspond-
ence.
The Chairman. You also received correspondence?
Mr. Zakman. Yes.
The Chairman. There might have been some more confidential
correspondence that went direct to Mr. Johnny Dioguardi that you
didn't see ?
Mr. Zakman. That is quite possible, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. During 1951, did you start a drive on the taxicabs
in New York City ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you ran that drive, did you, at least initially ?
Mr. Zakman. At the beginning I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And then Mr. Dioguardi began to take over that
drive also?
Mr. Zakman. After I left.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you explain to the committee the circum-
stances of your leaving local 102 (
Mr. Zakman. Well, there were many circumstances leading up to it.
For one thing, there Avere dis])utes about the method of organizing.
The Chairman. About what?
Mr. Zakman. About the methods of organizing. There were dis-
putes about staff members. We didn't see eye to eye on several things.
3652 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. 'Wliat was the dispute as to the methods of organ-
izing? Did you want to follow the methods or go along the lines that
you stated awhile ago?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Who had different ideas on that?
Mr. Zakman, Well, they wanted to use untrained organizers, peo-
ple who didn't work in the industry. I was opposed to that.
Senator Curtis. Who are you talking about as "they"?
Mr. Zakman. Well, other members of the executive. Dioguardi.
Senator Curtis. Dioguardi primarily?
Mr. Zakman. As business manager; yes.
Senator Curtis. What did he want to do about organizing?
]Mr. Zakman. Well, he wanted to organize, but I told him that the
only proper organizer to put on the staff is someone who would come
from the industry. He felt that anybody could be an organizer who
wanted to be one. I told him that when you organize an automobile
worker, you should send an automobile worker after him, and the
same for dress workers, that you take them right out of the shops.
He felt that he could hire them from the street if he felt like it and
train them to be organizers.
Senator Curtis. Is there any difference in the approach that he
wanted to make as to the approach that you fellows wanted?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir. At that time he made no other suggestion.
He was satisfied the way the organization was going, especially the
taxi drive. We were pretty successful in a few short months.
Mv. Kennedy. Was there anybody in particular that you had ob-
jections to as far as working for the union ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I had objections to about 95 percent of those
lie put on the payroll.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you object to Joe Curcio, for instance?
Mr. Zakman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you object to Teddy Ray ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you object to Joe Cohen ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Were these people all brought in by Johnny Dio-
guardi ?
Mr. Zakman. I don't know if they were directly brought in, as you
say, but some of them were directly introduced to us through him
and some through other people. Rut I just couldn't go along in put-
ting them on the staff. I felt that I was in charge of the organization,
and that I should have the last say as to who would be put on the
staff as an organizer.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you object to Benny the Bug, Benny the Bug
Ross?
Mr. Zakman. There is a fellow that did everything wrong and
organized better than the rest of them.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't object to him?
Mr. Zakman. No ; not after I saw what he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Johnny Dioguardi brino; him into the organi-
zation of 102 ?
Mr. Zakman. Frankly I don't know how he came in. We just in-
herited him somehow.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3653
The Chairman. You inherited liim?
Mr. Zakman. We inherited him.
The Chairman. You don't know who from?
Mr. Zakman. No. The organization was getting bigger and people
were coming and going. At times it was pretty difficult to keep up
with them.
The Chairman. Senator Goldwater?
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Zakman, you said that Benny the Bug had
a little different method of organizing and he brought in quite a few
members.
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. What was different about his procedure ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, Benny, as we call him, used the methods that
were used about 40 or 50 years ago. He would just walk into a shop
and pull the switch and say, "Everybody out on strike.'' That is all
there was to it.
Everybody thought he was crazy and they would walk out and the
boss would sign a contract. It was as simple as that. I know it
sounds unbelievable, but he organized many shops by the same
methods.
Senator Goldwater. By pulling the switch ?
Mr. Zakman. He didn't believe in elections at that time.
Senator Goldwater. Did he use any other method of persuasion
that might have been used 40 years ago ?
Mr. Zakman. No. He was a hard worker. He just ran from shop
to shop.
Senator Goldwater. He did not use an}- physical approach?
Mr. Zakman. No. He did a lot of yelling and made innuendoes,
but I have actually never seen him get into any pliysical disputes, not
wliile I Avas with liim, anyway.
(At tliis point, Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Senator Goldwater. I Avas curious to know, and thanks for telling
me. I wondered what methods he used that might not be used
regularly.
Mr. Zakman. They were completely unetliical, but they worked.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. You were discussing the disputes that you had with
Johnny Dioguardi which eventually led to your resigning from the
union.
Did you have a dispute with him at the headquarters?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I had previously resigned once before as a
result of him making promotions and putting so many of these people
on the staff', but they asked me to continue to stay on for a while
longer and reconsider.
When this taxi thing became big, other conflicts and differences of
opinion arose and then the newspapers started to lambast Dioguardi.
As a matter of fact, I knew Dioguardi several months before I knew
his name was Dioguardi. I only Knew him as Dio.
I read about him in the New York Post, Murray Kenton's column,
one day.
Mr. Kennedy. So did you raise a question with him, and did you
have a fight with him ?
Mr. Zakman. At that time I asked him if the article that was about
him was true and he asked me if I believed everything that was written
3654 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
in the papers, that is about tlie whole explanation he gave me about
that.
Mr. Kexnedy. Did he hit you?
Mr. Zakman. No. There have been a lot of stories about that so-
called hitting. He didn't liit me. As he stood up there, I bent over
to take some of my personal things, and his hand came back and the
ring scratched my eye. That is all there was to it. I was never
thrown downstairs as some of the papers say.
Mr. Kennedy. You were not thrown downstairs by him ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He just happened to hit you across the eye?
Mr. Zakivian. Well, it really wasn't a hit in that sense.
Mr. Kennedy. It was with his ring?
Mr. Zakman. It was with his ring and it scratched me. It was an
accident.
Mr. Kennedy. And you left the union after that ?
Mr. Zakman. I very happ)ily left the union.
Mr. Kennedy. You Avere out of it after that, is that right ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever have any connection with the taxicab
drive there ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Mr, Kennedy. Did you ever have any connection with Johnny
Dioguardi ?
Mr. Zakman. I only spoke to liini once after that in my life.
Mr. Kennedy. You went back to work for another union ?
Mr. Zakman. No, I organized an independent union at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you come to speak to him ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, at that time it came to my knowledge that he
was made, I believe, a regional director and he had the power to issue
charters. I was starting to organize three big shops.
Since I had onl}^ a small little local, I knew I could not do it myself.
I came over to ask him if he could possibly give me a charter of my
own, and if the international would send over some organizers to
possibly hel]) me with the situation.
At that time he said he w^as too busy with the taxi drive and he
couldn't help me himself, but he would send me over to Local 136 of
the UAW and they would help me. That is the last time I spoke to
Mr. Dio.
Mr. Kennedy. And they helped you out ; did they?
Mr. Zakman. No; they didn't help me out because local 512 itself
could not exist as such. I began to work for local 136.
Mr. Kennedy. T^ocal .512 is what?
]\Ir. Z.vK.ArAN. Well, the Hrst local 512 was an independent union.
Mr. Kennedy. In that connection, will you tell the committee or
relate to the connnittee how you get a charter for an independent
union? What procedure do you have to follow and what have your
expenditures been?
Mr. Zakman. Well, there are several procedures. One procedure
is you have a group of people, or you organize some shops and get
representatives of these shops to sign a petition, as we did the other
one, and request a charter.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3655
You send in a letter to almost any union, or the union or your trade
and ask them how much it would be, et cetera. In other situations,
you do not have to apply to anybody for an independent charter.
You get together a group of people, whoever wants to help you
organize a union or if it is the shop you have, you get the people to-
gether and vote yourself a name and officers, and you write a normal
petition to the National Labor Relations Board, file the normal forms
as any other union, and you are a legal union in every sense of the
word.
Senator Ives. Do you do this in collusion with management?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir. You do this on your own.
Senator Tvf.s. I wanted to make sure it was not a company union you
were talking about.
Mr. Zakman. No, sir; this is an independent union.
Mr. Kennedy. If you were trying to get a charter from an inter-
national? Have you ever heard of the practice of selling charters?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I have heard of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if it goes on ?
Mr. Zakman. It probably does.
(At this point Senator Kennedy entered the hearing r(X)m.)
Mr. Kennedy. You know that it goes on ; do you not ^
Mr. Zakivcan. Well, it does go on, but I do not know exactly who.
Mr. Kennedy. With some internationalists, are the charters for
their locals more expensive than others ? Would you give the commit-
tee a little bit of that?
I am sure you are not directly involved yourself, but I am sure you
can give the committee a little information as to how these things
are done.
Mr. Zakman. I myself have worked for man}^ unions. I never
bought a charter. If you can organize and you know^ how tx) organize,
it is not necessary. Once you have membership, they are only too
glad to give you a charter.
If you have no membership and you want a charter, you apply
to one of these unions. You could apply to the teamsters or to the
carpenters or to the Hotel and Restaurant Workers Union, or other
such unions, for a charter.
Sometimes they issue you a charter upon the application for just
a normal fee. Other times they don't.
Ml-. Kennedy. What has been your knowledge about when they
don't ? Wliat do you have to do then ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, sometimes they want a favor. They want you
to put someone on the staff. They would say, "Well, we will give
you a charter.'' Maybe one of the big shots in the international will
say, "All right, we will help you out. We will give you a charter.
But when your union is running along nicely, we would like to give
a couple of jobs out to a couple of friends," or something like that.
That would be one way of returning a favor. Other times, you
just ask them how much they want for the charter, period. If jf-ou
have the finances, you pay for it.
Mr. Kennedy. You pay for it, if you want it?
Mr. Zakman. For the charter.
Mr. Kennedy. Are some unions more expensive to get chartei-s from
than other unions ?
Mr. Zakman. I imagine so.
3656 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Is there any going price on any of the unions ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir. There is no open market for that.
Senator Kennedy. Woukl this sale take phice if you had members
and wanted to get the charter, or would this be a case where there
were no members, that you would have to do them a favor or pay
something ?
Mr. Zakman. If you had members, they would more or less have
to give you a charter, especially if they were in the same trade and
you were applying to the same union, because it would break out
into a scandal and the people would ask, "Why can't we get a
charter?"
But if you did not have members, then there was no one to
complain.
Senator Kennedy. Would the charters of some unions be more val-
uable than others?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I guess because the unions are more powerful,
more important. It would be easier to organize under their charters
as against — for instance, certainly a teamsters' charter is better than
a beauticians' charter. Nobody gets frightened when they see you
picket with a beautician's sign.
The Chairman. Can we go back just a minute before we pass over
this entirely, to this local 102, wdien you organized it and got your
charter? You charged an initiation fee, you said, of from $2 to $25.
To whom did that money go ? Did it go into your treasury or did it
go to some of the organizers or individuals ?
Mr. Zakman. No, it went into the treasury.
The Chaipjman. Did you keep books on your expenditures and on
all the dues?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir, there were books.
The Chair]man. And of the moneys received up to the time you
left the union?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know what became of those records ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You left it in 1951, sometime, I believe, did you
not?
Mr. Zakman. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. You do not know anything about the records since
that time?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Senator McNamara?
Senator McNamara. I do not know whether this happened before
I came in or not, but has the present employment of the witness been
established?
The (Chairman. The what?
Senator McNamara. The present occupation or employment.
The (^iiAiRMAN. You may state it again. Where are you employed?
Mr. Zakman. I am employed in a custommade lampshade factory
in New York City.
Senator McNamara. In what capacity?
Mr. Zakman. Production manager.
Senator McNamara. Is it a union shop?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator McNamara. That is all.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EV THE LABOR FIELD 3657
Senator Kennedy. In this period, did you consider that you were
acting as an agent for Johnny Dio or as a front for Johnny Dio?
You may not want to use that w^ord.
Mr. Zakman. Well, about the time that we started disputing, I
saw that I was losing control of the local and I felt that I didn't want
to be president anymore. In fact, I raised that question.
I told him that as long as I was president — I raised it at the
executive board — as long as I was president, and I was recognized
by the public as the head man, that is the way it would have to be.
If I got another title or if I was demoted, I said I would take
orders from somebody underneath me, but otherwise, I would not.
That I wanted tlie decisions pertaining to organizing to go to my
office and if they did not, I did not want to work there.
One thing led to another and we quibbled and all that. We all tei-^
minated our relationship.
Senator Kennedy. AMiat was Johnny Dio's title at that time?
Mr. Zakman. He was business manager.
Senator Kennedy. Who appointed him business manager?
Mr. Zak:man. I believe the international did.
Senator Kennedy. So you, as president of the local, were obliged to
take orders from Johnny Dio and you told him you would not con-
tinue as president, that you had the responsibility and you did not
want to take his instructions, and after you left, you felt that that
was putting you in an impossible position ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. So Johnny Dio was, in fact, in control of the
local ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir ; at that time he was.
Senator Kennedy. Why do you think it was worth while for
Johnny Dio to go to this effort to control this local ? "What was in it
for him? He was not a trade-union man. Why would he want to
do that ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, for one thing, the union was starting to grow
and for another thing the taxi drive was going along pretty nicely.
I had told him 30,000 taxidrivers, whoever controlled, them in New
York City would be a powerful figure in New York.
Senator Kennedy. Now, do you think Johnny Dio was interested in
raising the wages of the taxidrivers or in his own power controlling
the taxidrivers?
Mr. Zakman. At that time, to the best of my opinion, I honestly
felt that he wanted to make a success of this taxi drive. There were
30,000 people, and it would have brought in a legitimate million
dollars a year in income, and it would have made anyone a power in
the city.
The taxidrivers would have helped us organize anything that was
unorganized. You know how the taxidrivers are.
Senator Kennedy. It would have gotten $1 million a year?
Mr. Zakman. AVell
Senator Kennedy. That is what you and he discussed as the object
of this drive ; is that correct ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, it was a combination of both, sir. I didn't kid
myself. Whoever had the 30,000 members would make a nice living
and would have a powerful organization and would be secure. Basic-
ally, when we started, it was primarily for some security.
3658 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Kennedy. Security for Johnny Dio and those in control?
Mr. Zakman. Not at that time. I worked in many unions and I
liad a family to support and believe it or not, sir, the workers as such
are not the most generous employers themselves. Most of the time
I just barelj' made salary to support my family.
Here was a chance to organize a trade that never had been organized
in New York. Cei-fainly, if we did the job, and certainly if we got
conditions for the people, there would have been nothing wrong in us
remaining as officers.
It would have been a good thing for whoever did control them and
it would still be a big thing.
Senator Kennedy. You got forced out of this "big thing'- though?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I didn't care at that time. It didn't make much
difference one way or the other and I felt my position was, I didn't
know what office I held any more and I just felt I would work again.
Senator I^nnedy. Then Dio became in complete control and j^ou
left; is that right?
Mr. Zakman. When I left, I heard later that he did.
The CiiAiKMAN. Could you not fire him? Could you not fire Dio?
Mr. Zakman. Could I fire him ?
The Chairman. You were the president.
Mr. Zakman. No, sir; business manager is a higher position than
president, according to the constitution of the international.
The Chairman. And the business manager is appointed from the
international?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir ; or he could be elected by the local itself.
The Chairman. But this happened to be an international man ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Appointed by the international ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And whenever that is done, Avhoever holds that
position holds a higher position than the president of a local ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He can boss the president of a local?
Mr. Zakman. Well, he could fire you.
The Chairman. He could fire the president of a local ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right, unless they are an elected officer and
he could not fire you from your position if you are elected, but he would
take you off the payroll.
The Chairman. He could take you ofl' the payroll. That is a pretty
irood way to fire someone.
Mr. Zakman. Yes; you would have the title, but you would not be
receiving any salary from the local.
The Chairman. And can he also arrange to have the local taken
over in a trusteeship and put you completely out of business?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir; he could.
Senator Kennedy. I have just one more question. You stated, Mr.
Zakman, that possibly you could get $1 million a year if you were
successful in organizing the drivers there. Now, did any employer
groups ever offer you any money to prevent unionization, or prevent
certain wage demands?
Mr. Zakman. Well, we were organizing by the third week, we had
started the drive, and I received a telephone call offering me $25,000.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX TTIi: LABOR FIELD 3659
About a week later, they raised the ante to $50,000. The third week
they raised it to $75,000. They did not call after that anymore.
Senator Kennedy. Who called?
Mr. Zakman. They didn't identify themselves, but they asked
me if 1 was interested. At least I reported the conversation and I
don't know if anyone else got a telephone call. But I reported this
and they didn't identify themselves, but if I was interested and I
stated I was interested, they would have arranged a meeting.
Senator Kennedy. Was it an emplo3^er group i
Mr. Zakman. They claimed they represented the employers.
Senator Kennedy. Do you know if they talked to anyone else in
the local ?
jSIr. Zakman. I don't know, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Did you refer them to anj'one else, or did you
just turn them down?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. What did you say? What was your answer to
them?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I used a few four-letter words and told them
what to do with themselves.
Senator McNamara. Your testimony indicates perhaps, by insinua-
tion, that tmion charters are for sale, at different prices. What kind
of unions are you talking about? Are these so-called independent
unions that you organize more or less of your own intiative or are
you talking about sale of charters from bona fide international unions?
Mr. Zakman. Well, from the majority of bona fide international
unions, you could not buy a charter, so to speak. I can best explaiii
it this way : The. sale of a charter is not in the sense you just approach
someone who can get a charter. The only way to get a charter is if
you know someone from within a union, and you might know the
second vice president or somebody like that and he would use his in-
fluence to get it for you and if you made a private arrangement with
him that would be it.
The international as such might be interested in knowing what was
going on, but that particular individual would have given you a
charter under those circumstances.
Senator McNamara. When you are talking about the second vice
president, you have somebody in mind ?
Mr. Zakman. Any vice president.
Senator McNamara. You picked out the second vice president and
obviously, you have someone in mind. What is his name?
Mr. Zakman. I really haven't, and I just made that point.
Senator McNamara. You skipped the first and you were not talking
about the third and you were talking about the second.
Mr. Zakman. I never bought a charter.
Senator McNamara. Are you afraid to identify these people and is
there any reason? Are you afraid of Dio at this point, or do you
have anj^ fear?
Mr. Zakman. I have no fear of him.
Senator McNamara. No fear of him at all ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator McNamara. You are free to testify without any fear ?
Mr. Zakman. That is right.
3660 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives. Mr. Zakman, what was the total amount of money
loaned to the local 102 by Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. Zakman. I believe it was a few thousand dollars up to the
time I left.
Senator Ives. Only $2,000?
Mr. Zakman. A few thousand dollars.
Senator Ives. Was the loan carried on the union books ?
Mr. Zakman. To the best of my knowledge it was, at least most
of it.
Senator Ives. Did the union ever repay the money to Dio ?
Mr. Zakman. Not up to the time I left, sir.
Senator Ives. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. We have a list here taken from the bank records of
what books were available of local 102, of all of the loans that came
into local 102 during this period of time.
Senator Ives. Without objection, this will be put in the record.
Mr. Kennedy. Perhaps Mr. Zakman could identify it.
Senator Ives. Could vou identify this, Mr, Zakman?
This will be exhibit No. 3.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 3'' for refer-
ence and will be found in tlie appendix on p. 3972.)
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Zakman. No; I don't recognize all of these figures, sir, I
wouldn't be in a j^osition to state if it was so. I do know that up
to the time I left there liad been a few thousand dollars loaned to us.
The Chairman, I did not quite understand you. Up to what time?
What is that?
Mr, Zakman. A few thousand dollars had been loaned to us, but
as far as the larger amount, I don't know, and I don't know about
after that.
The Chairman. In other words, if they were loaned to you, you
did not know it.
Mr. Zakman. No. It states in 1950. I would probably know some
of that, and part of 1951, but that amount I don't recall if it was near
that amount while I was there.
The Chairman. Do you think the amounts there are excessive for
1950 and 1951 during the time you were with the union?
Mr. Zakman. No ; they are not necessarily excessive, sir.
The Chairman. Do you think that they are inaccurate?
Mr. Zakman. As I stated before, sir, 1 don't know if these are the
exact figures.
The C'hairman, You do not know if they are the exact figures, but
from your knowledge would you say that they are excessive or inac-
curate, or if they could not be true, that your union did not borrow
that nnich money from Johnny Dio, or Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, they could have borrowed that amount of
money. I don't know whether it is all from Johnny Dio, but they
could have used that amount of money because they did have a big
overhead at that time.
The Chairman. The witness is not able to identify the document and
we will have to have some testimony to identify it. He says he does
not i-ecognize it,
Mr. Kennedy. JVIr. Chairman, it is a schedule made by our investi-
gator, taken from the books of local 102 and shows the loans that were
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3661
made to local 102 diirino- the period 1950 and 1951 and I believe the
loans totaled $21,380.39 during; this pertinent period of time.
I wonder if Mr. Zakman knows anybody else who was loaning money
to the union other than Johnny Dioguardi.
Mr. Zakman. No, sir; not at that time.
The Chairman. These figures will have to be verified by our staff
member who took them from the original books.
Senator Curtis. Were you handling the finances during this period?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. You were not making the deposits in the bank?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir. The secretary -treasurer was.
Senator Curtis. You were not signing the checks ?
Mr. Zakman. I was signing checks, two signatures.
Senator Curtis. Were you in charge of the books, the entries that
were to be made ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were all of the funds handled by the union run
through the bank?
Mr. Zakman. To the best of my knowledge ; yes, sir.
Senator Curits. And while as an ofiicer of the union, you had to
sign checks, you did not have a day-to-day knowledge of the books?
JNlr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. And when they would borrow money would there
be any note executed 'f
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. You never signed a note or contract, that you recall,
to repay money to Johnny Dio or to anyone else?
Mr. Zakman. I never did ; but the treasurer might have.
Senator Curtis. The treasurer might have?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Zakman, I have a few questions in connec-
tion with the current points that are being brought out.
First, why in your opinion was the taxi drive unsuccessful?
Mr. Zakman. I really don't know, sir. I was very much surprised
and it was going on quite nicely.
Senator Goldwater. There were about 33,000 taxi drivers, I believe,
in New York at that time?
Mr. Zakman. Around that figure.
Senator Goldwater. How many did you sign up ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, when I left we had signed up, maybe, I would
say around 5,000 or so.
Senator Goldwater. Do you not have any idea why it was unsuc-
cessful after you left?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Goldw^^ter. Were Johnny Dio's connections with it instru-
mental in slowing the drive down?
Mr. Zakman. I really don't know, sir.
Senator Goldw^ater. Have you ever given it much thought?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I don't know, I know by the papers that the
teamsters suddenly said it was their jurisdiction and there was a
dispute between them.
Senator Goldwater. You recognized that these 30,000 or 33,000
men with their potential million-dollar-a-year income avouIcI be a
3662 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
source of power to the officers who controlled that. Did you just drop
it when 30U moved out of tliat union ?
Mr. Zakmax. We]], it wasn't sometliing for me to drop. I Avent out
and it was going along, as I said, very well. In fact, they signed up
a few tliousand more, to tlie best knowledge I was able to pick up
about it. It seemed they were linally going to succeed.
Senator (told water. Are tliey organized now?
Mr. Zakmax. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Tliey are not organized to any great extent?
Mr, Zakmax. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Well, Mr. Zakman, getting back to tlie original
102, I notice that you have with j^ou Mr. Berger and Mr. Dorfraan.
Can you explain wliy Berger, as an officer of the International Ladies'
Garment Workers Union, and Dorfman, who is an officer of the waste-
handlers union in Cliicago, were so influential in obtaining a charter
fortlieUAW-AFL?
Mr. Zakman. I don't knoAv, sir.
Senator Goldwater. You went to Berger for help in getting this
charter ?
Mr. ZAKJtAx. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Wliy did you go to liini ?
Mr. Zakman. We just happened to be talking one day, and I was
at that time with the ITAW-CIO.
Senator Goldwater. You were with the UAW-CIO at that time?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir. And we w^ere just talking generalities about
unions, aud we got to talking and I mentioned there was a UAW-
AFL. In fact he didn't at that time seem to even know that such a
union existed. I said, "Yes; there is, the original union, the AFL."
I said, "I would like to get a charter from that. I wish I knew some-
one wlio could get me a cliarter."
I aslved him, "If you ever find anybody M'ho would give me a char-
ter, I would be very much interested in knoAving about it."
Senator Goldwater. Then did he subsequently come to you and said
that he had someone who could help you get a chai'ter?
Mr. Zakman. He said he believed he could get a charter.
Senator Goldw^ater. Did he say that right at the time or later?
Mr. Zakman. Later on ; subsequently.
Senator Goldwater. It took a period of time ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Do you recall how much time it took?
Mr. Zakaian. I would say from our original discussion up to the
time we actually got a charter, it nuist have been around 9 months,
at least.
Senator Goldw\\ter. Did Mr. Dorfman get into the picture about
that time in your efforts to get this charter?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I met Mr. Dorfman I would say about 8 weeks
or so before Ave secured the charter.
Senator Goldwater. That was after you had met Mr. Berger and
talked to him about the charter?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Do you have any idea of the influences they
used in obtaining this charter from the UAW-AFL?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3663
Senator GtOldwater, Now, do you have any idea why their names
were placed on the original charter ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Here were two men who were members of
different unions whose names suddenly appear on the charter for 102,
along with yourself and others. Did you give that any thought at
the time ?
Mr. Zakman. At that time, no, sir. As I said, we had no mem-
bership, and we all suggested a few names at the moment in order
to be able to send in the necessaiy amount of names.
Senator Goldwater. Did you suggest Mr. Berger's and Mr. Dorf-
man's names, as appearing on the original charter?
Mr. Zakman. I don't believe I did, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Do you recall who did ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, there were only three of us : Mr. Berger, and
myself, and Baker, and so I know I suggested a few members of my
family, but I don't recall suggesting anyone else.
Senator Goldwater. How can an officer of the International Ladies'
Garmeiit Workers' Union and an officer of the waste handlers' union
be officially affiliated with another union such as the UAW-AFL?
Mr. Zakman. Well, actually it is not illegal.
Senator Goldwater, You can do that ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Is it customary ?
Mr. Zakman. It is not customary, but sometimes there are union
officials who receive honorary memberships in other unions.
Senator Goldwater. This wasn't honorary.
Mr. Zakman. No; but, as I said, it is not illegal, and it has been
done.
Senator Goldwater. Then, did you not say that you were a member
of the UAW-CIO at tlie time you first contacted these men ?
Mr. Zakman, Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. You were a member there of UAW-CIO and
the UAW-AFL at the same time?
Mr. Zakman. I was a member of the CIO when I disoussed the
question with them ; but, when I actually came over, I was with the
AFL, 1614, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers,
Senator Goldwater. You quit the CIO and went with the AFL?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. That doesn't happen usually, does it? Don't
you find a man who is an officer of one union is an officer of that union
and none other?
Mr. Zakman. Well, there was only one local in New York City
which was supposed to have jurisdiction over the gasoline stations at
that time and they v;ere controlled by a Connnunist clique, and I felt
if the AFL came in we certainly could do a better job than they did.
That was one of the reasons we asked to get a charter of our own.
Local 259 Avas pretty well known as a left-wing group. Many of the
gasoline-station attendants and mechanics would not join. There were
many disjiutes about why the leadership had never been removed,
and they haven't been removed until the present date.
Senator Goldwater, They have not been removed ?
Mr. Zakman. They have not been removed.
3664 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Goldv,^4ter. And those leaders are still identified with the
Communist movement ?
Mr. Zakman. I don't know if presently they are members of the
Communist Party, but I certainly know at that time they were.
Senator Goldwater. Would you be in a position to give us their
names ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mickey Finn, the head of the union.
Senator Goldwater. Mickey Finn?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Go on.
Mr. Zakman. Sam Myers, and one or two others whose names I
don't recall but they are officers of the union. And Charles Keddick.
Senator Goldwater. R-e-cl-i-c-k ?
Mr. Zakman. I believe it is R-e-d-d-i-c-k.
Senator Goldwater. I see.
Mr. Zakman. They were all officers of local 259, and to the best
of my knowledge are still officers.
Senator Goldwater. They were and are still officers ?
Mr. Zakman. To the best of my knowledge.
Senator Goldwater. Of local 259 of the UAW-CIO ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. And they were at one time and might possibly
still be connected with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Thank you for that disclosure.
Now, was there anything to the coincidence in the number of this
union, 102, and the fact that Mr. Berger was, I believe, an officer of
102 of the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union and this
same number is given to this union that Mr. Berger and Mr. Dorfman
and you were actively identified with when the charter was issued ?
Why did you get the same number?
Mr. Zakman. I don't think that there was any particular reason
at that time.
Senator Gouiwater. Would there be an advantage to Mr. Berger
in having the same number — or, put it this way, in belonging to two
unions not affiliated with the same international but having the same
number? Would that be an advantage to him, to keep questions off
of his belonging to both of them, being an officer in both of them ?
Mr. Zakman. He never was an officer of our union. He wasn't an
officer.
Senator Goldwater. Well, he held an official position. He was on
the charter.
Mr. Zakman. No, the charter doesn't mean official position.
Senator Goldwater. I asked you before how you happened to con-
tact Berger As I recall it, you said that you met him and told him
of the opportunities in this field, and about 9 weeks later he came
back with the information that he ^bought he could get a charter.
Mr. Zakman. No ; when I met him and we discussed it, it took longer
than 9 or 10 weeks. It was months before he finally let me know.
Senator Goldwater. Was Berger's reputation such that it was well
known in New York that he was quite influential in labor matters?
Mr. Zakman. Well, when I met IVIr. Berger at that time, I never
heard anything detrimental to his character.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES Dv THE LABOR FIELD 3665
Senator Goldwater. That wouldn't be detrimental, if he had power.
Mr. Zakman. I mean I didn't know much about him one way or the
other.
Senator Goldwater. Did you meet him accidentally or on purpose 'I
Mr. Zakman. No; it wasn't accidentally, nor was it on purpose.
It just happened. I believe I was walking with some mutual friend,
and he was introduced, and the conversation started, and that is how it
led up to it.
Senator Goldwater. Do you think that Mr. Dubinsky was aware of
Mr. Berger's connection with the 102 charter ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I don't know what Mr. Dubinsky was aware of.
There is very little he is unaware of.
Senator Goldwater. Would it be possible for one of his officers of
one of his locals to be engaged in the .obtaining of a charter for an
unrelated union without him knowing about it?
Mr. Zakman. It would be possible, sir.
Senator Goldwater. It would be possible ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Do you think that it actually happened?
Mr. Zakman. To the best of my knowledge, I would say so.
Senator Goldwater. Do you have any reason to think that Dubinsky
did know that Berger was mixed up in this new charter?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Do you know Mr. Dubinsky ?
Mr. Zakman. I don't know him personally.
Senator Goldwater. Did you ever discuss this charter with him ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Did Mr. Berger ever discuss the charter with
him ?
Mr. Zakman. I really don't know.
Senator Goldwater. You don't know ?
Mr. Zakman. No.
Senator Goldwater. Would it have been of assistance in obtaining
this charter to have Mr. Berger talk to Mr. Dubinsk^^ about it i
Mr. Zakman. Well, if Mr. Berger spoke to Mr. Dubinsky, it could
have helped, but I don't know if he ever spoke to him about it.
Senator Goldwater. A word from Dubinsky to those who would
issue the charter might help ?
Mr. Zakman. It would help to speed up things a bit, but I don't
imagine — I think it ought to be clarified that the United Automobile
Woi'kers-xA^FL, was not a difficult union to secure a charter from.
Later I found out that there was a charter in New York that never
had been used. Someone had sent in $25, and they always had a char-
ter in their possession and never used it. It was after we had 1 or 2,
and I thought we were the first.
Senator Goldwater. You didn't know at the time, though, that
charters were easy to get from the UAW-AFL ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. When you started out to get one?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Are they still easy to get ?
Mr. Zakman. I don't know anything about that union now.
89330—57 — pt. 10 6
3666 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Goldwater. Have you heard any rumors that might lead
you to believe that they are easy to get?
Mr. Zakman. I have had no association with the labor movement
for the last few years.
Senator Goldwater. Did Mr. Berger at any time in your conver-
sations mention anything that Mr. Dubinsky might have said about
his connection with your charter?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir. I never discussed Mr. Dubinsky with him
to the best of my knowledge.
Senator Goldwate]{. That is all I have.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, while we are on this question of Mr.
Dubinsky, in view of the fact that his name has been drawn into this
discussion the way it has, I think it is most important that Mr. Dubin-
sky be invited down here to speak for himself. I know he would be
only too glad to do so.
The Chairman. The Chair will say that the Chair announced this
morning that Mr. Dubinsky would have an opportunity to appear
before the committee.
Senator Goldwater. I don't want the senior Senator from New
York to thiiik that I was attempting to disparage one of his con-
stituents. But it did seem to me rather strange that with Mr. Berger's
position in connection with the International Ladies' Garment Work-
ers Union, that the head of that union — and I know the zealous way
in which he guards that union — did not know something about
his interest in obtaining a charter for some entirely unrelated pur-
poses. That is the reason that I asked the questions that I did. I
certainly agree with the Senator from New York that if there is any-
thing disparaging in my remarks, that Mr. Dubinsky be given an
opportunity to visit with us and explain why he did not know that
this type of operation was goins: on.
Senator Ives. Well, Mr. Chairman, before we leave this subject, I do
not know of course whether Mr. Dubinsky knew anything about this
or not, but I can easily see how it might have occurred without his
knowing anything about it. However, I am sure that he would not
approve of it if he had known anything about it, knowing Mr. Du-
binsky as I do.
The Chairman. We have information, I think this is correct, that
after Mr. Dubinsky foinid out about it, about a year later, he repri-
manded Mr. Berger for it; is that correct?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Berger received a public reprimand from Mr.
Dubinsky and from the Ladies' Garment Workers Union for his par-
ticipation in obtainino- the charter for Mr. Z«kman and Mr. Dio.
The Chairman. Whether that was adequate or not I am not pre-
pared to say. My guess is that, as I said this morning, Mr. Dubinsky
>'''ill be given an o)->portunity to ceitainly appear before the com-
iiiictee on any of tliese iiuittors which may be developed in the course
of the hearings and he will be given an opportunity to answer or
explain.
Senator McNamara. To raise the question, Is Mr. Berger still con-
nected with Mr. Dubinsky?
Mr. Kennedy. He was suspended or removed from his position as
manager of the union in early 1957, I think in February of 1957, and
he no longer has any official connection M-ith the Ladies' Garment
Workers Union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3667
Senator Goldwaitsr. May I ask this in connection with tliat same
question : Is Mr. Dorfnian still connected with the waste handlers
union?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwatek. He still is?
Mr. Kennedy. I believe he is.
Senator Goldwater. 1-^ he still seeretary-treasurei- ?
Mr. Kennedy. I believe so.
Senator Goldwater. So the waste handlers did iiot take the same
action as Mr. Dubinsky did?
Mr. Kennedy. The action that the Ladies' Garment Workers Union
and Mr. Dubinsky took against Mr. Berger was not as a result of his
particij)ating in obtaining a charter for Mr. Zakman and Mr. Dio-
guardi. It was entirely unrelated. It was for his appearing before
a grand jury in New York City, after the ethical practices committer
took their position on the hfth amendment. He appeared before a
grand jury in New York (^ity and took the fifth amendment, and there-
after Mr. Dubinsky released him.
Senator Goldwater. So Mr. Dubinsky did not actually punish him
for participating in this action ?
Mr. Kennedy. What happened was that it was a public reprimand.
Senator (joldwater. And Mr. Dorfman as far as you know is still
secretary-treasurer of his local in Chicago?
Mr. Kennedy. And I believe, as I pointed out this moniing, it
is his son who handles the insurance, who is the broker for the in-
surance, for the teamstei-s union there.
Senator Goldwater. That will be discussed later?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Zakman, about how long had you known these
two men who assisted in forming this union, Mr. Baker and Mr.
Berger ?
Mr. Baker had another name.
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How long had you known them ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, I met Mr. Baker through Mr. Berger. I knew
Mr. Berger, as I said, a few months, and Mr. Baker I didn't know.
I met him.
Senator Curtis. A few months before when ?
Mr. Zakman. Before we secured the charter.
Senator Curtis. Probably sometime m 1948 or 1949 ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. When did you return from Spain ?
Mr. Zakman. 1938. Around Christmas.
Senator Curtis. Around (Christmas 1938. "WHiat was your work
or occupation upon your return from Spain ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, for aAvhile, I worked as a bakery machinist for
Tip-Top Bread Co . Then I went to work for the Mack Truck Co.,
in Long' Island City, as a machinist.
Senator Curtis. Did 3'ou continue to work as a machinist up to
1945?
Mr. Zakman. LTp to 1942 when I went on the stafi' of local 259 of
the UAW-CIO.
3668 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis, Which union was that?
Mr. Zakman. United Automobile Workers, local 259.
Senator Curtis. "Wliat local number?
Mr. Zakman. 259.
Senator Curtis. That was probably about 3 years before you sev-
ered your Communist connection ; is that right?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And what position did you hold at that union?
Mr. Zakman. I was an organizer.
Senator Curtis. Who was the business manager for the imion at the
time? Do you recall?
Mr. Zakman. The head of the union was Mickey Finn, the president.
Senator Curtis. That is the same union referred to awhile ago ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. So they knew of your Communist activities when
they hired you as an organizer ; is that correct ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir. They were all Communists.
Senator Curtis. They were all Communists.
Were your activities and Communist connections known to these
other labor individuals and groups with whom you were active after
1945?
Mr. Zakman. Well, after 1945, when I broke away, and I would
work for a different union, I more or less let them know that I had
broken with the Communists and assisted in fighting the Communists
and have assisted until the present date.
The Chairman. If you will permit the Chair to interrupt for a mo-
ment, before you get away from another matter that has just been
discussed here, the Chair has a news bulletin just received today, stat-
ing that :
AFL-CIO President Meany today expelled Paul Dorfman, a close associate of
teamster vice president, .Tames R. Hoffa, as an officer and member of a small
local union in Chicago. Meany said Dorfman was guilty of violating AFIj-CIO
rules and ethical practices, and of having compromising personalities with an
insurance agency doing business with the teamsters.
It goes on to state about some other action being taken against labor
leaders that we have had before us.
But that part of it relates to the subject matter here under dis-
cussion, and I thought for the information of those who were listening
I would give out this news bulletin.
All right. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. I have just one more question about another mat-
ter.
Did you have any feeling at or near the time you left your last
union connection, or following that, when the organization drive with
the taxi drivers did not go on or anywhere near reach a majority of
the 30,000 taxi drivers, that they were perhaps making a payoff to
somebody else, even though you turned down the proposition?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir. As a matter of fact, I felt that there was an
internal union dispute going on between the teamsters at that time,
and local 102 for control of them.
Senator Curtis. You do not know who that telephone call came
from?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD 3669
Senator Curtis. You do not know whether it came from employers
or whether it came from the teamsters? They said they were em-
ployers ?
Mr. Zakman. They said they represented the employei-s.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. While Senator Ives was actino; as chairman a few
moments ago, a certain document, a compilation of figures taken from
the records of local 102, UAW-AFL was presented to the witness. I
believe he was unable to identify it. That refers to the loans of Dio-
guardi and others to this local union totaling some $21,380.39.
When I returned to the chair, I did not understand that this docu-
ment had already been made exhibit No. 3. Since it has been made
exhibit No. 3, it will so remain in the record, and the Chair will pro-
duce a member of the staif, a witness, to verify it later.
It will remain in the record where it has been placed by Senator
Ives.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I just have a few more questions
going back to local 102.
Johnny Dioguardi was signing the checks, he was stipuated as the
one to sign the checks for local 102, was he not ?
(At tins point, Senator McNamara withdrew from the hearing
room.)
Mr. Zakinian. I don't recall when he started to sign the checks.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you signing them originally?
Mr. Zakman. To the best of my knowledge, I signed them almost
until I left, or countersigned them. You have to have two signatures,
I think. I was shown checks that he had signed. I don't recall
whether it was done slightly before I left the union or just after.
The Chairman. A^^iat did Johnny Dioguardi have to do with
signing checks in 1950 before he took over? Rather, in September
1951. Were you still with the union at that time ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir; if he was business manager, he could have.
The Chairman. He was business manager of the union at that time.
Mr. Zakman. Then he would have the authority to countersign the
checks.
The Chairman. He would have authority to countersign the
checks.
Mr. Kennedy. I think the point is, Mr. Chairman, that the record
shows at the Trade Bank & Trust Co. there was one signature only.
All that was required was Mr. Johnny Dioguardi's signature on the
checks.
The Chairman. I hand you what purports to be a photostatic copy
of United Automobile AYorkers I'nion Local 102, AFL, a bank card
giving the authority for the signing of the checks at the Trade Bank
& Trust Co. I will ask you to examine it and see who is authorized
to sign checks on your union at that time,
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Zakman. I don't know anything about this particular record,
sir.
The Chairman. You do not know anything about that record ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Dioguardi's handwriting? Do you
recognize that ? Do you recognize his signature ?
Mr, Zakman. It looks like it might be him.
3670 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN TTTE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. It looks like it might be him. If that was pre-
sented to the bank by Dioguardi as him being the sole and exclusive
officer, as business manager, authorized to sign checks for that union,
then at that time you had no authority to sign the checks. Would
that not be true ?
Mr. Zakman. Well, except that it says here the welfare fund. They
might have set up a special fimd here, if you will notice it on the
bottom.
The Chairman. There may have been a special fund set up?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you know about that special fund?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
The Chairman. So that was a special fund set up that had the
authority for him to sign the checks?
Mr. Zakman. No; I don't Imow anything about this, sir.
The Chairman. That document may be returned. It will not be
made an exhibit at this time.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Going on, after you got out of local 102, you ulti-
mately ended up in 512 of the cleaners and dyeworkers?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. During the period of time you were with 512, you
were indicted for extortion, you and another official ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you ultimately went to jail and paid your
penalty, and you are on probation now ; is that right ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you do not have anything to do with union
work, you are employed and you have a wife and three children, as I
understand it; is that correct?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to ask you about a resolution that was
passed by local 512, Mr. Zakman, when you and your fellow official,
Mr. Leone, were convicted.
The Chairman. I hand you the resolution counsel has referred to,
a copy of it, and I ask you to examine it and see if you recognize it.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir ; I recognize it.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit No. 4, for reference
only.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 4," for ref-
erence, and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.)
Mr. Kennedy. It stipulated in there, did it not, that you and Mr.
Leone were to receive your salaries while in jail; is that right?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir ; but we did not.
Mr. Kennedy. They never paid you ?
Mr. Zakman. I haven't received a single penny from them.
Mr. Kennedy. It says :
Whereas, eei'tain oflScers, by virtue of their earnestness, sincerity, and dili-
gent efforts to organize membership for this labor organization, become t-argets
of antilabor campaigns to discredit them : and
Whereas, these officers are presently under a cloud and are charged with
violations of the penal law of the State of New York ; and
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3671
Whereas, the executive lioard of this labor organization is fully aware and
cognizant of the circurostances and facts surrounding the charges made against
these officers, it is resoh'ed as follows :
1. Resolved, That the executive board of local 512, AJVIPCU-AFL does hereby
express, announce, affirm, and reiterate its complete faith, tinist, and belief in
the integrity of Nicholas Leone and Samuel Zakman ;
2. Resolved^ That the executive board of local 512, AMPCU-APL, does further
affirm its belief that the charges against the aforesaid officers are fabricated,
completely false, and devoid of any indecia of truth; that these charges are
made for the purpose of hampering labor organizations and discrediting the
work of these two labor officers ;
3. Resolved, That in consideration of the afoi-ementioned, and in further
consideration of the work performed by these two labor officers.
Then it goes on that they were going to give you assistance and help^
and your family assistance and help, when you went to jail.
But they never gave you that ?
Mr. Zakman. They never gave us anything.
Mr. I^NNEDT. They never assisted you ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That union broke up after that ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir,
Mr. Kennedy. And the officers went into local 875 of the team-
sters ?
Mr. Zakman. That is what I heard, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. It became local 875 of the teamsters ?
Mr. Zakman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And some of the officials were transferred over,
finally, just prior to the election, into local 875 of the teamstere, is
that right?
Mr. Zakman. Well, some of those officials Avere not officials while
I was there, but I heard that they were made officials after, and they
were transferred.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know what connection Tony "Ducks"
Corallo had with local 875 ?
Mr. Zakman. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know him at all 2
Mr. Zakman. No, sir ; I never met him.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions?
Senator Goldw^\ter. Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to make a state-
ment here before we close up.
If management kicked labor around the way it is obvious that some
leaders of labor have kicked labor around, we would have a howl going
up that would shake the Washington Monument. I want to thank
Mr. Zakman for the testimony he has given today. It brings out more
and more and more the fact that this uncontrolled, unbridled power
that is vested in the leadership of labor has got to come under the
scrutiny of law of this country.
The Chairman. Are there any other comments ?
Senator Iv'es. I would like to comment on that, Mr. Chairman.
Unfortunately, to too great an extent, management sometimes has
tangled up with that kicking around process, as Mr. Zakman himself
knows, and both sides of the pictur-e have to be dealt with, both manage-
ment and labor, when it comes to kicking around the workers.
Senator Goldwater. I think the Senator from New York will agree
with me that the labor law's of this country and the laws that pertain
to monopoly, the laws that allow management and labor to kick work-
3672 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ing people around, are inadequate, to say the least, and they must be
revised, and they must be strengthened.
Senator Ives. ' I think that is what the purpose of these hearings is, to
find out where the strengthening should take place.
Senator Goldwater. I could not agree with you more.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, are there any further comments?
If not, the Chair will make this announcement. We are going to
conclude for the afternoon, due to the fact that a live quorum call is
in process in the Senate Chamber.
There may be a vote afterward, and the members of the committee
probably could not get back. Therefore, we will
Mr. Falk. I am representing Mr. Berger. He is a very sick man,
just out of a hospital. They postponed his treatment until tomorrow
so he could be here today. I am also under doctor's care.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Mr. Falk. Can we have our hearing adjourned until next week?
We can come back next week.
The Chairman. In order to accommodate him — can you get through
with him this afternoon, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. Kennedy. We could have him as the first witness tomorrow.
Mr. Falk, He must be treated tomorrow.
Mr. Kennedy. Can he not be treated tomorrow afternoon?
Mr. Falk. No. He is getting X-ray treatments. They must be in
series. He had a serious operation and now he is getting X-ray treat-
ments. I called last Friday to explain that.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis, can you return in a few minutes for
further testimony if we are not compelled to remain on the floor?
Mr. Falk. We can come back next week.
The Chairman. It appears that we can have a quorum here. We
will undertake to accommodate Mr. Berger as much as possible. We
will stand in recess for a few moments until we return from the Senate
chamber.
(Members present at the taking of the recess : Senators McClellan,
Ives, Goldwater, and Curtis.)
(Brief recess.)
(Members present after the taking of the recess: Senators Mc-
Clellan and Goldwater.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Before proceeding with the next witness, the Chair wishes to an-
nounce that in view of Mr. Zakman's testimony regarding Mickey
Finn, Charles Reddick, and Sam Myers, in which he referred to them
as Communists or former Communists who were in the UAW-CIO, I
have had a staff member contact New York and they talked to Mr.
John White. Mr. White has watched the television, and I assume
he is one of the officials or members of the union, he has watched the
hearings and knew what had been stated and testified to by Mr.
Zakman.
Mr. White stated that Mickey Finn is president, Charles Reddick
is a delegate, tliat is a business agent, and Sam Myers is a delegate
or business agent, and that they knew that this committee was coming
in to investigate, and, therefore, they moved in on local 259. He
stated that they had justification for doing so because the local was
in bad condition.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3673
There was a terrific fight on between Finn and Myers, so that on
January 18. 1957, that union, or that local, was placed in administra-
torsliip, meaning, I assume, trusteeship. It is administered now
by Charles Kerrigan and Emil Mazey.
John White is acting international representative, representing
Kerrigan in the union. Joseph Berry represents Mazey.
Finn, Keddick, and Myers are still technically officers, but their
powers have been suspended and will remain so until the new election
takes place, or proof is presented and charges are heard to disprove
them.
Local 259 jurisdiction is auto dealerships and 5 or 6 industrial
plants. It has about 4,000 members.
I thought that should go into the record in view of the testimony
that has been given by Mr. Zakman.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman, was there any statement as to
the present affiliation of these men with the Communist Party ?
The Chairman. I have no information as to their present affiliation
with the Communist Party. I do not know whether Mr. White told
them about that or not. Apparently he made no comment.
All right, Mr. Berger, will you be sworn ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give l)efore this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Berger. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SAM BERGER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
SAMUEL FALK
The Chairman. Be seated.
State your name.
Mr. Falk. Samuel Falk.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
State your name, your place of residence, and your business or
occupation, Mr. Berger.
Mr. Berger. Sam Berger, 350 East 54th Street, New York City;
presently unemployed.
The Chairman. Presently unemployed.
Have you elected to have counsel present with you to advise you
as to your legal rights while you testify ?
Mr. Berger. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, you may now state your name for
the record.
Mr. Falk. Samuel Falk, of Falk & Orleans, 1()5 Broadway, New
York City.
On behalf of Mr. Berger, may I ask that these lights be turned oif,
and that these people who are taking pictures of him ever}' minute
be asked to leave? He is a sick man. He is just out of a hospital
and he cannot testify under these conditions.
The Chairman, just one moment.
The Chair is going to make this observation with respect to that
request during the course of these hearings.
The Chair will make this statement, and I think I made the sug-
gestion the other day in executive session, that where a witness makes
such request and if he testifies, the Chair will grant such a request.
3674 IMPROPER ACTivrriES est the labor field
Where a witness comes in here purposely not to give testimony, but
simply to invoke the Hfth amendment, the Chair does not intend to
grant* the request unless the committee overrules him.
Therefore, the Cliaii- would ask the witness whether it is your
purpose to testify freely and answer such questions as may be asked
jou pertinent to the inquiry by membere of the staff, counsel, or
members of the committee.
Mr. Falk. In the light of the statements that were made by counsel
for this connnittee, and the fact that Mr. Berger is presently under
indictment in the southern district of New York, in the United States
court, and is being under daily investigation, I have advised him that
he should re-sort to his constitutional rights.
The Chairman. I see.
All right, gentlemen.
The Chair will state to the witness, if he is not in any physical dis-
tress because of illness, but if he is not going to testify, if all he is
going to do is take the fifth amendment, I do not see that the lights
will greatly distract him from doing that, and, therefore, we will
proceed.
Mr. Falk. I respectfully file my objection.
The Chairman. The objection is noted and overruled.
Proceed, Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. IMr. Cliairman, we have information that Mr. Sam
Berger was manager of local 102 of the ILGWTJ for some 12 years, up
to approximately February 1957.
Is that correct, Mr. Berger ?
(At this point, Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. And local 102 of the ILGWU, Mr. Chairman,
handles the trucking mainly between 34th Street and 40th Street in
Manhattan, handles the trucking for the ladies dress firms in that
area. They have contracts between 300 and 350 trucking companies,
and these trucking companies are under his jurisdiction; that Mr.
Berger has been a friend of Mr. Johnny Dioguardi for some 25 years ;
that Mr. Berger had a business relationship with Mr. Johnny Dio-
guardi, or with Mr. Johnny Dioguardi's brother. Tommy Dioguardi,
and that business relationship was under the name of "Just Another
Corporation.''
Would you conniient on those facts I have recited, Mr. Berger?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Beroek. I nnist decline to answer on the grounds it may in-
criminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have this business relationship with Tommy
Dioguardi from 1951 to 1953?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berber. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Kennedy. And was this company that you formed a corpora-
tion called Just Another Corporation and you worked under the
business name of Flowerland Florist, is that right ?
Mr. I^ERGER. I decline to answer on the grounds that it may in-
criminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. And amongst the customei-s of the Flowerland
Florist that you sent flowers to were various of the ladies garment
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3675
companies in New York City as well as certain of the trucking; com-
panies, is that right? Were they some of your customers?
Mr. Berger. 1 must decline to answer on the grounds it may in-
criminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. The information we also have is that Mr. Johnny
Diogiiardi did some work for you in order to obtain some customers
for that company.
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. In declining to answer these questions, the Chair
wishes to ask you whether you will state under oath that you honestly
believe that a truthful answer to them might tend to incrnninate you 'i
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Would you repeat that, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. With respect to the questions counsel has asked
you now, the Chair asks you whether you are willing to state under
oath, and if you do now state under oath, that you honestly believe
that a truthful answer to those questions might tend to incriminate
you?
Mr. Berger. I do.
The Chairman. That is one answer.
All right, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. As I stated before, our information is that you have
been a friend of Mr. Johnny Dio's for some -J5 years, and that back
in 1950, approximately September of 1950, you suggested to Anthony
Doria and Mr. Paul Dorfman and Mr. Dave Previant, that this charter
be granted to Mr. Johnny Dio, a local charter from the UAW-AFL.
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. When you appeared before the Senate Subcommittee
on Investigations on May 29, 1956, and were asked tliat question, you
said that you had suggested that this charter be gotten from Mr.
Johnny Dioguardi. Do you remember that?
(The witnesses conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I do remember appearing before the committee. What-
ever I said is in the record. I don't intend at this time to amplify
it, as you already have it in the record.
The Chairman. I will not ask you to amplify it.
Mr. Berger. That is on the ground that it may incriminate me.
The Chairman. We will not ask you to amplify it at the moment.
We will just ask you if you did not so swear.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Whatever you have in the record, whatever I testified
to, that is what I said.
The Chairman. Let me ask you some of these questions.
Did you state that you helped to get the charter for this union,
localld2?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. 1 am not going to answer that question at this time
because being under investigation it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this : Do you say you remember
testifying ? You stated, I believe, that you remembered testifying be-
fore the connnittee on May 29, 1956. Is that correct ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. That is correct.
3676 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. At this time I will ask you if you testified as fol-
lows, aud these are questions and answers :
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been head of that union-
referring to the union local 102.
You answered :
Well, I have been head of it for 12 years.
Is that correct?
That is local 102 of ILGmi.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Beroer. If I answered it at that time, that was correct. But
at this time, I don't want to answer any questions pertaining; to that
as it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I understand you do not want to answer it, but I
feel it is the duty of this committee to call your attention to your
previous testimony, and give you the opportunity to deny your pre-
vious testimony, if it is not true, or to amplify it if you desire to
change it in any respect.
I think it is only fair to you that you have that opportunity, since
you are now resorting to the fifth amendment, contending that it
might tend to incriminate you.
You were asked the question :
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been head of that union?
You answered:
"Well, I have been head of it for 12 years.
Do you want to make any comment on that or change your tes-
timony ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I have no comment to make at this time, and I don't
wish to answer the question. As I have said before, I am under inves-
tigation by different Government agencies, and the answers may tend
to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you think they would tend to incriminate you
any more today than they would have then ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I don't know.
The Chairman. Well, I do not either.
Let me read you some of these questions here, because they are perti-
nent to the testimony we have had here today. I want to read them
to you and read your answers and see if yoli wish to deny it or if you
wish to amplify it.
Mr. Kennedy. You have been head of it for 12 years?
Mr. Bekgek. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Has it always existed as local 102, ILGWU?
Mr. Bekgek. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. It has always been under that name. Have you had anything
to do with any other unions?
Mr. I'ekgek. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you involved at all in this UAW 102? Did you have
something to do with that?
Mr. Berger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You had nothing to do with it?
Mr. Berger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you work with Johnny Dioguardi to get its charter, to see
some people to get the charter?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3677
Mr. BE3RGER. I helped to get the charter.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do on that?
Mr. Bergek. I visited the international oflSce of the United Automobile Work-
ers of tlie AFL and spoke to the secretary-treasurer, Mr. Doria, and told him
that there is some oi'ganization work that could be done in New York, there are
some fellows that think they know they have some potential members and would
he issue a charter to them. That is about the extent.
Mr. Kennedy. You suggested that the charter go to Johnny Dioguardi?
Mr. Berger. That I did.
Now, then, do you wish to make any comment on that testimony,
your previous testimony, before the committee?
(The witness conferred with his counseL)
Mr. Berber. Mr. Chairman, at that time, when I came before the
committee, I came before the Committee on Investigation of Govern-
ment Operations.
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Berger. And I testified, and I answered all the questions.
Since that time, there is another investigation going on, and it is
centered around me. I seem to be a target. In view of that, I can-
not and will not answer any questions that I think may tend to in-
criminate me.
The Chairman. I understand your position now. But I feel that
in all fairness, and for the purpose of this record, I want to read you
some of tliese questions and the answers you gave when when you
appeared before the other committee making some investigation along
these lines.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you censured by your own union for taking part in that
type of activity?
Mr. Berger. I was.
Mr. Kennedy. What has been your relationship with Johnny Dioguardi?
Mr. Berger. Social.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known him?
Mr. Berger. About 25 years.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you meet him, in New York?
Mr. Berger. In New York.
Mr. Kennedy. What year? Approximately 1930?
Mr. Berger. Somewhere in the 1930's.
Mr. Kennedy. And you knew his uncle, James Plumeri?
Mr. Berger. Sure.
And it goes on.
I have read that part that pertains to the securing this charter, which
is reflected in your former testimony.
You say now that something has developed since, that you feel that
you cannot afford to answer it for the reason that it might tend to
incriminate you ?
Mr. Bf^RGER. That is riglit.
The Chairman. Is that correct?
Well, then, you do not want to deny what you stated under oath to
the other committee ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. BERCiER. I am not making any comment. I am not denying or
admitting.
Mr. Kennedy. There might have been some confusion, Mr. Berger,
on your statement that you answered all questions before the Investi-
gating Committee. In fact, you refused to answer some questions
before the investigating committee, also, on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
3678 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Bp:kger. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Berger, are you acquainted with Mr. Sam
Zakman, who testified here today?
Ml-. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Senator Curtis. Were you present in this hearing room when he
testified today ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you hear his testimony ?
Mr. Berger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did vou hear him recite anything that was not
true?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Senator Curtis. I did not ask you what he stated. I asked you if
you heard him testify to anything that was not true. You must
answer yes or not.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Senator Curtis. You cannot tell me whether you heard it or not,
whether you heard anything that was not true ?
]\Ir. Berger, are you or have you been an officer in the International
Ladies' Garment Workers Union?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Senator Curtis. Do you know whether any of the funds of either
local 102 of the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union, or
the international organization have been used for political purposes?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I don't know.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Going back to local 102 of the UAW, at that time
Mr. Sam Sobel appeared on the application blank, on the original
102 application blank.
Did not Sam Sobel work for the ILGWtJ at that time?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. If he did not, I will not pursue it. But our under-
standing was that he had.
(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. At that time he was working for one of the ILG
unions.
Mr. Kennedy. I was wondering, Mr. Berger, about this. Our
information is that when these paper locals were chartered on Novem-
ber 8, 1055, that a number of the officials from the Ladies' Garment
Workers Union appeared on those application blanks. Could you tell
us anything about that, whether you know anything about that?
Mr. Berger. I don't know the first thing about any of the paper
locals.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3679
Mr, IvEivrNEDY. Do you know George Monica ?
Mr. Berger. Would you repeat the name?
Mr. Kennedy. George Monica, M-o-n-i-c-a.
Mr. Berger. Never heard the name.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Joseph Monica ?
Mr. Berger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know any Monicas ?
Mr. Berger. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know David Koch ?
Mr. Berger. No. sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Nick Kaminetzky ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
JNIr. Berger. 1 decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Kaminetzky as Mr. Charles Duke?
Mr. Berger. 1 decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. KENNiiDY. He is known both as Mr. Nick Kaminetzky and
Charles Duke.
Do you know that he works for Mr. Tony "Ducks"" Corallo?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Tony "Ducks'"?
Mr. Berger. 1 decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr Kennedy. Do 3'ou know Carmine Tramunti ?
Mr. Berger. 1 decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it not a fact that Carmine Tramunti also works
for Tony Corallo?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on tlie same grounds.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you not out in Burbank, Calif, with Mr.
Charles Duke, also known as Kaminetzky?
Mr. Berger. 1 decline to answer.
Mr. Kennedy. In that connection, Avere you attempting to set up
in Los Angeles, Calif., a trucking company?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have some arrangements with the union
out there at that tune?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you familiar with the Gilbert Carrier Corp.?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know INIr. James Hoffa ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you know Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Berger. For many years. I don't know how man3^
Mr. Kennedy. When did you first meet Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Berger. I haven't any idea how long ago.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it 5, iO, 15 years ago ?
Mr. Berger. I wouldn't say. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you meet him in New York City ?
Mr. Berger. I don't remember exactly where I met him.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever visited him in Detroit?
Mr. Berger. No, sir.
3680 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Has he ever visited you at your home ?
Mr. Berger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever arrano:e for him to meet any people in
New York City? Did you ever introduce liim to people at his re-
quest ?
Mr. Berger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever have any business relationship with
him?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell the committee what business rela-
tionship you have had with Mr. Jimmy Hoffa ?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you also have a business relationship with Mr,
Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Dioguardi have anything to do with the
business relationship you had with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Are you declining to answer because of some phys-
ical fear you liave of these people, rather than because you think you
might involve yourself in some legal problem ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. Mr. Chairman, I am not under any physical fear of
anybody.
The Chairman. That is fine. Then we must assume that there
have been some transactions that you are most reluctant to relate to
the public ; is that correct ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I don't know what you assume, but I decline to answer
on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. After you obtained this charter, or after you had
the relationship with Mr. Johnny Dio in 1950 regarding this charter,
did you have any further business relationships with Mr. Dio?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever been out socially with Mr. Dio and
Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
The Chairman. May I ask you if it is because of the character and
reputation of Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Dio, or Dioguardi, that causes you
to feel the possibility of incrimination, or is it because of some actual
involvement in something?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Vliat we are chiefly interested in, of course, is any
negotiation that you conducted with Doria, how you obtained your
transportation out to see Doria in Milwaukee. I would like to find out
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3681
who paid for that transportation, what your conversations were with
Paul Dorfnian in this period of time, how he happened to get into it,
how Mr. Dave Previant happened to get into this charter of local 102
of the UAW-AFL. Would there be any comments that you would
make on any of those matters?
Mr. Berger. I cannot make any comment at this time. I must de-
cline to answer on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
]Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever met Mr. Hoff a in Detroit ?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't understand, when you say you don't refuse
to answer whether you know him, why you decline to answer whether
you had any business transactions with him.
Mr. Berger. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have some facts that I would
like to ask questions about, but it does not seem that we will get very
far.
The CiiAiKiMAN. Ask him a few of them so we might get a general
idea of what circumstances cause the witness to feel that he might
be incriminated if he answered and told the truth.
Mr. Kennedy. The first, of course, comes around to what we are
chiefly interested in, local 102. Sam Berger's name appears on the
original charter of local 102.
The Chairman. Did you sign yoi^n' name to the original applica-
tion for charter of local 102?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I didn't sign anything.
The Chairman. Did you authorize your name to be submitted as
one of the applicants for a charter ?
Mr. Berger. No, sir.
The Chairman. You knew nothing about it?
Mr. Berger. No, sir.
The Chairman. Whoever submitted your name as one of the appli-
cants for a charter did so without your knowledge, consent, or authori-
zation ; is that correct ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Falk, May I have the question repeated, please?
The Chairman. I say whoever submitted your name, if your name
was on the application for the original charter of local 102, whoever
did it did so, as I understand your testimony, without your knowledge,
consent, or authorization?
Mr. Berger. That is right.
The Chairman. Is there anything further, jNIr. Counsel?
Mr. Kennedy. There was some question about the financing of
the union, and I was wondering if 3^011 assisted or helped finance this
union at all.
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the grounds it may incrimi-
nate me.
The Chairman. Do you know about Dioguardi financing it ?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Do you know about him taking it over a little
later, taking complete charge of it after it had gotten organized?
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
sossn — 57 — pt. 10 7
3682 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You know about those activities, do you not ?
(The witness conferred with his counseL)
Mr. Berger. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Mr. Berger, do you feel any sense of obligation
whatsoever to union members who have been manipulated in that
organization, whose dues you took '^
Mr, Berger. I don't quite understand that.
(At this point, Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Do you feel an}^ sense of obligation to the union
members of this country, whose dues are being taken, who are re-
quired to pay dues, to belong to a union, and who are often required
to belong to a union to work? Do you feel under any sense of obliga-
tion as a citizen of this country to try to cooperate with this com-
mittee and help us find out what the facts are so that tlie Congress
of the United States might consider appropriate legislation?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Berger. I have always had an obligation to any member of
any union, any trade unionist, but I must decline to answer any ques-
tions while I am under investigation on the grounds that it may
incriminate me.
The Chairman. In other words, you feel self-preservation, or keep-
ing within yourself any knoAvledge you may have, is a higher obliga-
tion than is your duty to the union member and to the public of the
country ?
Mr. Berger. I must decline to answer on the grounds it may in-
criminate me.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mr, Chairman,
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
Do you need him any further ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir.
Mr. Falk. May I thank j^ou gentlemen foi- giving iis this oppor-
tunity to finish today.
The Chairman. The witness is excused.
The committee stands in recess until 10 o'clock in the morning.
(Thereupon, at 4:57 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 10 a. m., Thursday, August 1, 1057.)
(Committee members present at the time of recess: Senators;
McClellan and Goldwater.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
THURSDAY, AUGUST 1, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field,
Washington^ D. C.
The select committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolution
74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the Caucus Room, Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Sen-
ator Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York; Senator John F. Ken-
nedy, Democrat, Massachusetts; Senator Pat McNamara, Democrat,
Michigan; Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Sen-
ator Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona; Senator Carl T. Curtis,
Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, chief assistant counsel; Paul J. Tiernej^, assistant counsel; Rob-
ert E. Dunne, assistant counsel ; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk .
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Membei's of the select committee present at the convening of the
session were Senators McClellan, Ives, Kenned}^, and McNamara.)
The Chairman. y<[\\o is your next witness?
Mr. Jvennedy. Mr. lister Washburn, please.
The Chairman. Mr. Washburn, will you come around, please.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God %
Mr. Washburn. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LESTER WASHBURN
The Chairman. Will you state your name, place of residence, and
your business or occupation, please, sir?
Mr. Washburn. Lester Washburn, Rinelander, Wis. I run a sum-
mer resort in that area, and I am a builder by trade.
The Chairman. You have talked to members of the staff, I assume,
regarding your testimony, and you know generally the line of in-
terrogation to expect ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You also know of your right to have counsel pres-
ent while you testify to advise you as to your legal rights, do you?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
3683
3684 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You waive counsel?
Mr. Washburn. I don't figure it will be necessary, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
All right, Mr. Kennedy, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Washburn, you used to be president of the
UAW-AFL, did you not?
Mr. Washburn. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That was during what period of time ?
Mr. Washburn. From 1943 until 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. You resigned in 1953?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that 1953 or 1954, Mr. Washburn? Was it
not 1954?
Mr. Washburn. I think it was 1953. I may be mistaken on that.
Mr. Kennedy. I think the record shows 1954.
Mr. Washburn. Then it was 1954.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee a little bit of your
background, where you were born?
Mr. Washburn. I was born in Muskegon, Mich., and later moved
to Detroit when I was just a kid, and I spent about 25 years living
in Lansing, going to school in Lansing, Mich.
Mr. Kennedy. What year were you born?
Mr. Washburn. 1908. I entered the labor movement in 1933 in
Lansing, and that is when I started working.
Mr. Kennedy. You went to school in Lansing ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How much school did you have ?
Mr. Washburn. Through the 10th grade.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you entered the labor-union movement ?
Mr. Washburn. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. As what, and in what position ?
Mr. Washburn. Just as a member.
Mr. Kennedy. Of what union?
Mr. Washburn. It was the Federal Labor Union, Automobile
Workers Federal Labor Union.
Mr. Kennedy. '^^Hiat year was that?
Mr. Washburn. 1933.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you become an officer or official of that union?
Mr. Washburn. I became recording secretary of that local union
shortly after I became a member, and the union was just starting
at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. You were doing some organizational work yourself ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, yes, like any other member that is interested
in organizing a union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you obtain any other position with the automo-
bile workers at that time?
Mr. Washburn. Well, after the Federal labor unions then were
chartered iiito the International ITnion of Automobile Workers, I was
a delegate to the first constitutional convention.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that?
Mr. Washburn. In 1935. I then became vice president of an
amalgamated local embracing nil of the automobile workers in Lan-
sing. Then later I became president of that local union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3685
Then in 1936 I was elected to the international executive board of
the Automobile Workers Union.
Mr. Kennedy. How many members did yoU have, approximately, at
that time ?
Mr. Washburn. I don't remember, at that time. I would have tc
get into the records to find out. It was the beginning of the union in.
1936 and 1937, at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. You were organizing the automobile companies at
that time ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you continue as to your career in 1936 and
1937?
Mr. Washburn. I continued as a member of the international execu-
tive board, and as such I was regional director of the western half of
the State of Michigan from 1936 until 1943, at the time I was elected
international president.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have anything to do with the so-called
Lansing holiday on June 7, 1937 ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes; I was organizational director of that area
at the time that that took place.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat happened at that time?
Mr. Washburn. Well, it involved a small strike, a small plant about
25 people. We organized them and elected officers one night and the
next morning the officers all got fired, and we tried to negotiate them
back to work and the company went out of town and got "scabs" to take
their place, and we immediately, of course, established a picket line
and there was an injunction against picketing.
Then one night about 2 o'clock, the police and the sheriff's depart-
ment came in and dragged 2 women and 9 men out of bed and took
them to jail for a misdemeanor of violating an injunction.
That touched off the holiday, and all of the automobile plants the
next morning shut down as a protest demonstration.
We felt at that time that with any other average citizen the police
would have waited until a decent hour in the morning, and then went
and served their warrants, but in this case they just dragged them out
of bed, including women, and threw them in jail without any chance
to see an attorney or anything else.
By that time^ of course, and during that time, even the district at-
torney in Lansmg had made a public statement that the automobile
workers were getting too strong and it was time they were stopped.
We had a bad time there, and we couldn't even rent a building to
hold meetings in, and we had to go out when we couldn't afford it
and buy one.
The opposition, I mean, was terrific at that time. We thought this
capped it off, and it was a spontaneous situation, and all of the plants
shut down, and everybody went downtown and protested with a pro-
test demonstration on the capitol lawn, and the people were finally
released from jail that day.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that the period of the so-called sitdown strike ?
Mr. Washburn. During that period, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you the one chiefly responsible for this event,
the Lansing holiday ?
Mr. Washburn. If any one person could be named as being responsi-
ble, I suppose it would have to be me ; yes, sir.
3686 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Now, subsequently, in 1937 and 1938, and 1939, was
there a split within the UAW between certain factions ^
Mr. Washburn. Yes. Right from the very beginning, of course,
there w^as a fight for power in the union which got started and come to
a climax in late 1938 and early 1939. There were separate conven-
tions and we had our regular convention in March of 1939 and the
opposing forces had theirs, I think, some time later in 1939 in Cleve-
land.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat was the basis for the two factions, and what
was their dispute ?
Mr. Washburn. Primarily the question was over communism, and
the question of whether Communists were going to get control of the
union or whether they weren't. Of course, when it came to a head,
there were a lot of personalities involved in it and power politics,
but the primary issue was whether or not the Communists were going
to take control of the union or not.
Mr. Kennedy. "N^Hien the actual split occurred, which group had
the greatest in numbers ?
Mr. Washburn. ^'NHien the actual split occurred, when we had our
special convention in 1939, according to the official local union dele-
gates that were attending our convention, we supposedly figured we
had slightly over a majority of the membership.
(At this point Senators Mundt, Goldwater, and Curtis entered
the hearing room.)
Mr. Washburn. But it changed shortly after that, and eJohn L.
Lewis gave his blessing to the other side, and John L. Lewis at that
time was very popular among the auto workers, and so the CIO auto
workers got the breaks on that.
John L. Lewis Avas very popular among the auto workers, and he
gave his support to the opposition.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was the first president of your group ?
Mr. Washburn. Before the split or after the split, do you mean?
Mr. Kennedy. After the split.
Mr. Washburn. After the split. Homer Martin.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was president of the rival group ?
Mr. Washburn. R. J. Thomas.
Mr. Kennedy. Then did the rival group take the automobile shops
themselves, and you people had the repair shops; is that Avhat
happened ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, it turned out pretty much that way. We
had some automobile shops, and quite a few parts plants, and the
union was composed mostly of automobile-parts plants with very few
basic automobile plants.
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately how many people did you have in
your union and how many did they have ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, over what period?
Mr. Kennedy. Right after the split.
Mr Washburn. Well, right at the time of the split, it was pretty
close to 50-50.
Mr. Kennedy. How many were there in the union altogether?
Mr. Washburn. I couldn't give you that figure now.
Senator Goldwater. Before we leave this question that counsel was
interrogating you on, just a moment ago, namely communism, were
you connected with the AFI^UAW at that time ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3687
Mr. Washburn. At the time of the split, you mean ?
Senator Goldwater. Yes.
Mr. Washburn. Well, at the time of the split, we were the United
Automobile Workers, and we were alined with the Committee for
Industrial Organization at that time.
After the split, of course, when John L. Lewis gave his support
and blessing to the other side, we had no place to go, and so we reaffi-
liated with the American Federation of Labor. We originally were
affiliated before.
Senator GoLDWA^rER. Is it true that when the UAW-CIO began to
organize they used Communists in the organizing effort ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, I have very definite opinions on that. sir.
But I don't know whether that is pertinent to this particular inves-
tigation or not.
Is it, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman, What is the question ?
Senator Goldwater. I wanted to know if Mr. Wasliburn can recall
if Communists were used in the CIO's effort to organize in the auto-
motive field. That was back during the years of 1934 and 1936 and
1937, and the time that we have been discussing here of the sitdown
strikes, and so forth.
Mr. Washburn. As I say, I have some very definite opinions on that,
and I took some very definite sides in that situation, but I am not cer-
tain whether that is pertinent, and whether we ought to go into that.
The Chairman. Just a moment. The question cloes not call for an
opinion. It calls for an answer of fact, if you know. The question is,
did they use Communist organizers at that time, and that calls for a
question of fact, if you know.
Senator Goldwater. I might say, Mr. Washburn, that this question
is not prompted out of total ignorance of the subject. The subject
has been discussed at some great length in numerous magazine articles
and newspaper articles from time to time, but it is very rare that we
in the Congress have the opportunity to ask that question of a person
who was rather intimately connected with that period.
To let you know why I think it is pertinent we have had just yester-
day the disclosure of three more names in the CIO who either were or
are Communists. Before the Internal Security Subcommittee as you
probably know, there have been already disclosed 12, and I believe a
13th is to come up, who have been or are members of the Commvmist
Party and are connected with the CIO.
Now, if the conunittees of Congress are constantly bringing that
fact out, I think it is necessary to ask a person like you a question like
that, so that we can develop this subject further.
Mr. Washburn. I have no objection to answering the question, sir,
and I just don't think it is pertinent to this investigation. I will say
this, however, that I don't know whether those during that period
who were in charge of hiring personnel deliberately hired Communists
or not, but I am satisfied that they got some during that period.
Senator Goldwater. The reasons that we have heard, and the rea-
sons that have been advanced by the majority of the writers who have
investigated in this field, is that the Communists were the only people
available at that time Avho understood organizing of that nature. The
organizers of the CIO took them on in rather copious quantities for
that purpose with the idea that they could dump them later.
3688 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. WASHBURisr. Well, some people may have tlioiifjlit that, sir, but
from my experience the people that came right out of the automobile
plants turned out to be the best organizers in the automobile industry.
Senator Goldwater. But you feel there were some Connnunists?
Mr. Washburn. I am satisfied that they got some. "^^Hiether they
were hired deliberately or not, I couldn't say.
Senator Goldwater. I notice that one of the reasons that has been
advanced for Berger seeking this charter was the fact that a group
of garage mechanics were having a dispute with a Communist-con-
trolled union in the UAW-CIO in New York, and I think that was the
same union that was referred to yesterday when Mr. Zakman named
the three men who he felt either had been or are now Communists in
that union.
So that the Communists have continued to pop out of this box.
I think testimony like yours is going to be valuable to the CIO, who
I know are very anxious to rid themselves of the remaining vestiges
of communism. I think we must all agree they took them on in their
efforts to organize and found that you could not get rid of them.
Mr. Washburn. Certainly I have no objection to helping that work.
Senator Goldwater. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, moving on, Mr. Washburn, during the period
1940 and 1945, were you an officer and did you have some other posi-
tion in the UAW-AFL ?
Mr. Washburn. "\Vliat period ?
Mr. Kennedy. From 1940 on, did you hold some official position ?
Mr. Washburn. From 1936 on, I was either a member of the inter-
national executive board or international president.
Mr, Kennedy. After the split occurred in the UAW, did you have
some position then, some official position ?
Mr. Washburn. I was a member of the international executive
board.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any other position after that ? Were
you elected to any other position, other than as a member of the execu-
tive board ?
Mr. Washburn, Well, as a member of the international executive
board, each member was also a director of organization, or organiza-
tional director of a given region, or a given area. All during this
period, I was regional director of the western half of the State of
Michigan up to 194B when I was elected international president.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1943, you were elected international president?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you remained so until 1953 or 1954; is that
right?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, in 1949 or 1950, in that period of time, were
you approached by Mr. Anthony Doria, who was then secretary-
treasurer, was he not, of the UAW-AFL?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he speak to you about granting a charter in
New York City to Mr. Sam Zakman?
Mr. Washburn, Yes, he did,
Mr, Kennedy, Could you relate to the committee the circum-
stances ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3689
Mr. Washburn. Well, to the best of my recollection, the first con-
tract or the first information I had on the request for a charter was
that there was a group of people in a New York local union of the
UAW-CIO, which was reported to be Communist dominated, that
wanted to get out from under and wanted to find a place to go. They
wanted to affiliate with our organization. We didn't have a local
union in the metropolitan area of New York at the time, and we were
rather interested in being able to establish a beginning there.
Now, that information came to the best of my knowledge to Doria
from David Previant, our general counsel.
About the same time, and this is a connection that I have made in
my own mind on the matter, Doria was invited by Previant to at-
tend a dinner of the heads of the Central States Drivers Council of
the Teamsters Union in Chicago. I wasn't invited. Doria was,
and he figured that he was invited mostly because the insurance com-
pany that handled the insurance for the Central States Drivers
Council was interested in having Doria there so that he could talk
to them about our international placing our insurance business with
their outfit.
Now, in this meeting, in this dinner, I understood that of course
Jimmy Hoffa was there, who was the head of the Central States
Drivers Comicil, and a number of other teamster leaders.
Of course, these insurance peo]:)le and Paul Dorfman were there,
and that was my first knowledge of anything about who Paul Dorfman
was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand he also was interested in getting
this charter for local 102 ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes; I found out later, that is after this dinner
was over, and Doria was talking about it, and he mentioned Dorfman.
I couldn't see his connection in the matter, and in fact I didn't know
who he was or what connection he had in the labor movement until
some time after that.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand at that time when Doria spoke
to you about the granting of this charter, that Johnny Dioguardi
was involved in it ?
Mr. Washburn. No; Johnny Dioguardi wasn't involved in it at
the time.
Mr. Kennedy. You did understand subsequently that he became
interested in it ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes ; it didn't take long, and we began to hear a
lot about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that he began to take control
over local 102 ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, the first that I recollect on it was that sud-
denly Sam Zakman was out and a person by the name of Johnny
Dioguardi was in. I still didn't know too much about it. I didn't
know one way or the other who Dio was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand or learn how he was able to
take over this union from Sam Zakman?
Mr. Washburn. Well, I soon found out ; yes.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Wliat did you find out ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, I just found out that he more or less muscled
in and pushed him out. There were no particular details, but I
3690 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
mean those things happen, and then we began to hear that Dio was
financing the deal, and then I began questioning it.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the ordinary procedure, to have a private
individual finance a union ?
Mr. Washburn. No, it isn't. That is what I couldn't understand
about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know why Johnny Dio would be so inter-
ested as to finance one of your unions in New York City ?
Mr. Washburn. No, I never could figure that out. The only thing
I could do was to guess.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat is that ?
Mr. Washburn. The only thing I could do was guess, and then of
course after finding out who Johnny Dio was, and his background,
and all of that, then I could only guess the purposes for which he
wanted to get into the union movement. I had heard and found out
by various sources that he was actually more of a businessman than
he was a labor man, and with the number of business connections he
was supposed to have, or reported to have, why he would be interested
in financing a labor organization, I couldn't understand.
The Chairman. You didn't think he was particularly interested in
the welfare of the laboring people ?
Mr. Washburn. I never thought so ; no, sir. I never thought he was
very much interested. I thought actually that it was mob money
rather than Johnny Die's personal money that was in the organi-
zation.
The Chairman, "Whose money ?
Mr. Washburn. It was underworld mob money. I thought, was
being put into grab control of unions. That is actually what I thought
it was, and whether it was that or his own personal money, I don't
know.
Senator Kennedy. What was Johnny Dio's reputation at that time ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, at that time I didn't know too much about
it, and I was just beginning to gather the information.
Senator Kennedy. You gathered, as I understand, that he was a
businessman.
Did you gather anything else about him ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, t know, or I had heard and found out from
his background that he had served time for extortion, and I had heard
and read that he was connected with the so-called Lepke mob, oper-
ating in trucking rackets.
Senator Kennedy. From all you heard as far back as 1950, do you
think that any self-respecting union man would associate with Johnny
Dio, or anybody interested in the welfare of workers who have any
connection with Johnny Dio ?
Mr. Washburn. Not if they knew his background, and knew what
he was operating.
_ Senator Kennedy. Was it difficult to find his background at that
time?
Mr. Washburn. Was it difficult to find his background? No.
Senator Kennedy. You were able to find it?
Mr. Washburn. I found it.
Senator Kennedy. And you feel that Johnny Dio even then was
recognized as a businessman and as a hoodlum", and therefore there
was no excuse for any trade unionist who had any responsibilities to
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3691
the workers to associate directly or indirectly with Johnny Dio; is
that not correct ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator Kenxedy. And it was obvious that as the witness said
yesterday afternoon, as to the point of this, particularly in the taxicab
situation, as the witness said, was to pick up $1 million legitimately
from the dues of the union members. So it was quite obvious to
you, I am sure, that the opportunities to a man like Dio who com-
bined business enterprise with being a hoodlum, were extensive and
were obviously not in order to improve the living standards of the
workers but to exploit it for his own uses. Is that correct?
Mr. Washburn. Yes. Well, the first thing I ran into, that is that
I could get ahold of to do something about, was when I found out he
was the owner or a part owner of a nonunion dress factory. I raised
hell about that, and shortly thereafter he sold it. Or he was reported
to have sold it.
Senator Kennedy. I think that is important. As far back as 1950
all of this was information which could be obtained, even if it were
not general information, as to Johnny Dio's character. Therefore,
I think it is of interest to this committee that he was permitted to
play such a significant part in major labor action in New York City
from this date on.
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator Kennedy. It is most unfortunate.
Mr. Washburn. As soon as I could get ahold of it, I got a copy
of his background from the New York State Crime Commission, of
his activities and his associates, and a list of his associates.
I had a pretty good idea of what his motives were, or at least I
thought I did, if you can deteruiine anybody's motives in anything.
Senator Kennedy. You were never under any misapprehension
that his motives were to improve the w^orking standards of the workers
of New York City?
Mr. Washburn. I never thought that was his main objective ; no.
Senator INIcNamara. TVHiile there is an interruption, in 1950 were
you international president of the UAW-AFL?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Then were you a party to issuing the charter
to Dio?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Despite the fact that you knew of his reputa-
tion ?
Mr. Washburn. I didn't know it then. I didn't even know Johnny
Dio at the time the charter was issued.
Senator INIcNamara. In 1950, you indicated that you had looked
into his background.
]Mr. Washburn. Oh, no. You see, we didn't hear of Johnny Dio
until some time after the charter was issued. The first charter in
New York was issued at the recommendation of Sam Berger, and
I had never heard of Johnny Dio before that.
Senator McNamara. Sam Berger as far as you knew at that time
was a responsible individual ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes. We always had a good respect for the Inter-
national Ladies' Garment Workers Union, and we had friendly rela-
tions with them. Many of the International Ladies' Garment Work-
3692 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ers organizers were sent out to the Middle West to help us organize
in the early days, and a recommendation coming from the Interna-
tional Ladies' Garment Workers or anybody responsible in it we never
questioned.
Wlien Sam Berger who I had never met before or never even heard
of in fact, when we found out he was manager of the trucking local
for the garment workers, and he was recommending this charter be
issued, there was no question about it. We issued the charter.
But at the time we issued the charter, we were told or at least I
was told that there was a group of workers, legitimate workers I
mean, involved in the request for a charter. We soon found out that
that wasn't true.
Senator McNamara. To take you back a little bit, you indicate your
first activities in the union were in 1933 ; am I correct?
Mr. Washbuen. That is right.
Senator McNamara. You became a member of the Federal local that
was chartered by the AFL directly ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator McNamara. Who was heading up the organizing drivel
Was that the days of, I can't think of his name, this fellow with the
deep voice?
Mr. Washburn. The fellow before him, at that time.
Senator McNamara. Before him was Collins?
Mr. Washburn. Bill Collins was first, and followed by Francis
Dillon.
Senator McNamara. Then the 1933 period was when Collins was
leading the organization?
Mr. Washburn. Yes; he was the first director of organization
among the auto workers for the AFL.
Senator McNamara. And about this time, the NRA came in, and
when was that ? That was in 1933 ; was it not ?
Mr. Washburn. It was in that time ; in 1933.
Senator McNamara. Were you elected under the NRA as a repre-
sentative of part of the group of employees of the plants?
Mr. Washburn. No. The plant I was working in had the NRA
representation, so-called representation plan, but we were already
starting organizing at that time, and we would not subscribe to it.
We had our own union, our own legitimate union going on a small
scale. There were 2 or 3 departments of the plant involved and so
we refused to become a part of it.
Senator McNamara. You did not enter into the election under the
NRA?
Mr. Washburn. No.
Senator McNamara. What plant was this ; the Oldsmobile ?
Mr. Washburn. Reo Motor Car Co.
Senator McNamara. When did the CIO come into being?
Mr. Washburn. Well, the CIO actually came into being sometime
late in 1936. We had had our first constitutional convention under
the AFL in 1935, and then sometime in 1936 there was this top level
fight in the AFL over the question of industrial versus craft organ-
izations, and then there were six international unions suspended as a
result of that fight. Of course right from the very beginning we of
course were industrial union minded, and working in industrial in-
EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3693
clustiy, so-called, and naturally we were working pretty closely with
and supporting the industrial union idea.
We were suspended along with five other international unions, in-
cluding the International Ladies' Garment Workers, the Amalgam-
ated Clothing Workers, Textile Workers, and the Mine Workers.
Senator McNamara. You were expelled by whom?
Mr. Washburn. By the AFL. The AFL suspended six interna-
tional unions.
Senator McNamara. They did not lift your charter at that time.
Did they lift the Federal charter at that time ?
Mr. Washburn. We weren't Federal then. We had built enough
by 1935 ; we had enough members in our Federal labor unions tlirough-
out the country in automobile and automobile-parts plants that the
AFL set up an international union and gave us an international char-
ter in 1935.
Senator McNamara. This was Homer Martin's day?
Mr. Washburn. Homer Martin was the first president.
Senator McNamara. Then when you referred to this, actually the
CIO was born at that convention at the Fort Shelby Hotel. Is that
the time you are talking about, when Dillon was practically elimi-
nated from the picture ?
Mr. Washburn. ^Mien you say "CIO", no ; because the CIO com-
prised a lot more unions than just the automobile workers.
Senator McNamara. I am talking about the UAW-CIO.
Mr. Washburn. Well, the UAW, the United Automobile Workers
were formed officially at the Fort Shelby Hotel convention.
Senator McNamara. That is when Dillon practicall}^ went out of
the picture?
Mr. Washburn. Oh, no. That is when Dillon became provisional
president of the union. In 1935 when we got our first charter, you
see the AFL practice had always been that when they chartered an
international union, they would keep it under surveillance and close
watch to help.
Senator McNamara. Pretty much of a trusteeship ; was it not ?
Mr. Washburn. Sort of a trustee proposition. Dillon was made
the provisional president in the 1935 convention. We had our inter-
national charter and all of that, but we were still being financed pri-
marily by the AFL.
Senator McNamar-V. Now, in 1936 in the convention
Mr. Washburn. That is when we elected our own officers.
Senator ^IcNamara. That is the time that Dillon practicallv went
out?
^Ir. Washburn. That is when Dillon went out and Homer Martin
was then elected to the international presidency.
Senator McNamara. That is when you had the break in the UAW,
CIO and it was born at that time?
]Mr. Washburn. In essence, yes. There was actually no break with
the federation at that time.
Senator McNamara. No; I know.
Mr. Washburn. There was no break with the federation.
Senator McNamara. That was later?
Mr. Washburn. That came later, and Ave were just pressurins for
the right to elect our own officers, and we were still affiliated with the
3694 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
AFL and we still had our charter. But it was later that the top level
fight on the council of the AFL took place, and the six international
unions were suspended.
We were included among them because we were pretty much indus-
trial union minded.
Senator jMcNamara. You mentioned a period of time when you had
a struggle between what you termed the "Communist element" and
the "anti-Communist element" in your union.
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator McNamara. Was that prior to 1936?
Mr. Washburn. No ; the big fight came afterward. The big fight
started in 1937, and actually the fight in the union probably started
in 1937, 1 think. Finally it "blew up in late 1938.
Senator McNamara. When did this come to a head ? Was that at
the Atlantic City convention ?
Mr. Washburn. It came to a head not in a convention. It started
in the 1937 convention, and then there was at that time, we voted con-
ventions every 2 years, and the s])lit actually took place in late 1938
before a convention was called. The result of that split was two sep-
arate conventions. There was a separate convention for each side.
Senator McXamara. Whom did you consider Avas the top man in the
Communist element in the union at that time?
Mr. Washburn. In the union at that time, well, George Addes
seemed to be the fellow that wielded the most power.
Senator McNamara. He wielded the most power with what you
considered the Communist element?
Mr. Washburn. It was a so-called bloc that was always supporting
the Communist element.
Senator McNamara. Su])porting the Communist element ?
Mr. Washburn. I don't know whether George Addes was a Com-
munist or not.
Senator McNamara. I don't think that you intended to imply that
he was ; did you ?
Mr. Washburn. No; there were lots of people in there, and if I
say that, basically it started over the Communist issue. But before
it got done, there were a lot of personalities involved in it.
Senator McNamara. You do not have any idea of who might have
been the topman of the Communist element? It was an unknown
person ?
Mr. Washburn. No; I don't. There were a lot of Communists
around, but as far as in the union, I don't know. I could not say
whether one was a Communist or not.
Senator McNamar.\. Your record up to now in this hearing indi-
cates that you thought that there was a substantial number of Com-
munists. I presume that you had in mind they were probably Com-
munists and Communist su])]:)orters.
Mr. Washburn. ]\Iore supporters than there were Communists,
probably.
Senator McNamar^s., I would think that you would want the record
to show that, and I do not think you would want to show, as it does
up to this point, that there were this number of Communists in your
union. Did you want to show that?
Mr. Washburn. What is that ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD ^695
Senator McNamara. You did not want to show that there was this
number of Communists in your union ; did you ?
Mr. Washburn. No.
Senator McNamara. You did not want to leave the record that
way?
Mr. Washburn. Oh, no ; not particuLarly.
Senator McNam^^a. There were probably people who were taken
in, more or less.
Mr. Washburn. A lot of people were taken in ; yes.
Senator McNamara. You were not one of them, I am sure.
Mr. Washburn. No. Eight early in the game I found out what
the deal was.
Senator McNamara. That is all.
Senator GoldwxVter. To get back to that point, I don't believe that
I left the inference with you that the AFL employed Communists
to organize ; did I ?
Mr. Washburn. No.
Senator Goldw^ater. My questions were directed to the rather well-
known fact that the CIO in their efforts to organize the auto workers
employed Communists as organizers, and I did not, I hope, leave the
inference that the (JIO memberslip was or is predominantly Commu-
nist ; did I leave that in your mind ?
Mr. Washburn. I don't think so; I hope my answer did not infer
that the CIO or the AFL deliberately hired any Communists. I
think that I said that I believed they got some.
Senator Goldwater. That is exactly the answer that you gave, and
it substantiates wiiat investigations have brought out from time to
time. I did not, as Senator McNamara I believe misunderstood, leave
the impression that it was entirely a Communist movement. I think
it was a very regrettable thing that at that period in labor's history,
those who were attempting to organize the CIO, and the CIO particu-
larly in the Michigan and Indiana area, felt they had to go to Com-
munists to obtain good organizers under the impression tliey could get
rid of them Avhen they wanted to. I think that they have since found
out that they cannot get rid of Communists as easily as they thought,
because they are still popping up in congressional investigations.
That was the fact Senator that I wanted to bring out, inasmuch as
Mr. Washburn had been most cooperative in revealing the history or
part of the history of the development of the CIO. It is a very inter-
esting part of labor's history, and I hope during the course of our in-
vestigations we can bring it out. It is entirely ditfeient than anything
that the American Federation of Labor ever dreamed of doing, or
would have even allowed to have happen within their ranks.
Senator McNamara. There seems to be some misunderstanding.
For sure, I had no reference in my line of questioning to anything
that you had said. I am sure if there is a misunderstanding it is com-
l)letely on your part. I was in no manner referring to your questions.
You had your questions and answers, and I did not have thein in mind.
I do not understand this involving me in this.
Senator Goldwater. Possibly I did misunderstand you, but I
thought that you might be trying to erase from the record any refer-
ence that I miglit have made to the fact
Senator McNamara. That was the last thought in my mind.
Senator Goldwater. That is fine.
369§ IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Mr. Washburn, I am interested in knowing to what
extent various labor leaders knowingly worked with and mingled with
convicts, lawless people, and the like. Do you know what Johnny
Dio's reputation was in 1950 and 1951 among the people with whom
you associated ?
Mr. Washburn. I didn't know until after he became connected
with our union, and I began to hear some things, and then I began
to get into it and find out just what his background was.
Senator Curtis. A\nien did you first learn that he was an individual
that lived outside of the law ?
Mr. WASiiBURiSr. Well, my first information on that came from a
telephone call from somebody in New York City who claimed that
he knew me when I was in the CIO.
Senator Curtis. I am not asking that we reiterate all of the testi-
mony that has gone before here this morning. But I would like to
ask you now, what labor leaders in particular would you say knew
Dio well and were friendly with him?
Mr. Washburn. You mean
Senator Curtis. You do not have to give the details.
Mr. Washburn. Based on what I know now ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Washburn. Well
Senator Curtis. "V^Hio, for instance, in the teamsters union?
Mr. Washburn. Well, Jimmy Hoffa. He associated with Jimmy
Hoffa, and those surrounding Jimmy Hoffa.
Senator Curtis. That was was rather frequent and continuous?
Mr. Washburn. Well, to my best information, Jimmy Hoffa con-
sidered Johnny Dio his friend, and they were together in numerous
meetings that I also attended, such as AFL conventions, and he was
also considered to be a friend of Johnny O'Rourke in New York, of
the teamsters union, and he was also considered to be friends with, I
don't know their names, but there were a couple of teamster local
officials in San Diego, Calif., and through those contacts, through
Johny Dio's contacts or his influence introduced to Doria, and Doria
then became interested in doing some work in the San Diego area.
Senator Curtis. In unions other than the teamsters, who were some
of Dio's pals and close friends and individuals who cooperated with
him?
Mr. Washburn. Well, there were some of course in the ILGWU,
in New York.
Senator Curtis. Who, for instance?
Mr. Washburn. Well, Sam Berger was considered to be a friend.
In my investigation of Johnny Dio, I had our educational director
while he Avas attempting an educational conference in New York with
some of the ILG people, a fellow by the name of Elder, who was on
the educational staff of the ILG, and Marc Starr was in this confer-
ence, and our educational director was Francis Henson, I asked him
when he went to this conference, since he was going to be in contact
with ladies garment workers people, if he would try and find out
everything he could about Johnny Dio in the New York situation,
and to see if we could get sometliing that we could use to get rid of
him, and get him out of our union.
He was referred to a vice president of the ILG, because Dave
Dubinsky was out of town, and this vice president, whose name I can't
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3697
recall, was sort of a liaison man between the international headquar-
ters of Mr. Dubinsky and the New York Central Labor Union.
In other words, he was active in New York.
Mr. Henson went to this vice president of the ILG, and this vice
president told Mr. Henson that Johnny Dio was O. K., and he was
a good man.
Senator Curtis. That was at a time when there was no reason why
this vice president should not have known Johnny Dio's true char-
acter ?
Mr. Washburn. I was satisfied that he did know. I was also sat-
isfied that Dave Dubinsky knew.
Senator Curtis. What makes you say that ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, because Johnny Dio, I mean, was reported
by all of the facts, that is of all of the history and his record, that
he was connected with the old Lepke mob, connected with the garment
rackets, and in the truckino; rackets in the garment industi-y. and
how could Dave Dubinsky not have known Johnnj^ Dio?
Senator Curtis. Now, in any other unions, other than the garment
workers and the teamsters, who were some of Johnny Dio's pals?
Mr. Washburn. That I can't tell you. That I don't know. I know
he associated with different people around the AFL conventions, but
to pin it clown, I couldn't tell you that.
Senator Curtis. Well, it is a fair assumption on the part of this
committee or anyone else, that these people who did work with Johnnj^^
Dio and any other criminal element in New York, were not innocently
and blindly led into any such contact, were they ?
]\Ir. Washburn. Well, that is a hard one, sir, to answer, A lot of
people can be innocently led into something.
Senator Curtis. If they continued on ?
Mr. Washburn. Well once they knew the background, they
wouldn't be continuing innocently. I would agree with you on that.
Senator Curtis. The point is, the background was available, and
well known to those who were concerned, is that not right?
Mr. Washburn, That is right.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask ]SIr. Washburn a
question because of what a]:)pears to be his long experience and broad
experience in the labor movement. He apparently has had experience
in the labor movement when the Communists were active.
INIr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator Ites. And being used by certain elements in the labor
movement to expand. Now he has been active in the labor movement
when during a period of time racketeers have been engaged in obtain-
ing control of certain labor organizations.
I am just curious to know whether he has sized things up yet so
that he has an idea as to which is worse as a factor in the labor
movement : the Communists or the racketeers.
Mr. Washburn. Personally, I would say the racketeers, sir.
Senator Ives. That is the way it seems to me because I think that
they can do a great deal more damage to the country than the Com-
munists.
Mr. Washburn. Well, I don't know which would be true in the long
run. I never agreed with the Communists, and I always fought them
89330^57— pt. 10 8
3698 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
in the union, but I will say this : They would, fight for conditions and
when you would find a guy connected with the Communists, he was
always fighting for the conditions for the workers and they were not
signing sweetheart agreements, as a rule.
But I don't want to give them my blessing by that statement. But
I would say that as far as the racketeers, I would say that they were
worse.
Senator Ives. We know that both elements, both the Communist
Mr. Washburn". In the labor movement, whether it's Government
or wliat phase of our society it is, I think racketeers can be more
dangerous than anything else.
Senator Ives. I think so, too, and we know both of them are under-
mining our society,
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator Ives. It is a question of which one is doing the greater
damage, and I think from what I know about it, you have sized it up
about right ; I want to thank you for j^our observations.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, if I might ask a question.
Senator Mundt, I would be glad to yield to you if you want to
pursue this phase of it.
Senator Mundt. It does not make any difference.
Senator McNamara. You mentioned a name that is very familiar to
me, a fellow who was prominent in Michigan and Detroit for a long
time, Arthur Elder, who died a couple of years ago.
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator McNamara. What reference did you make to Arthur
Elder?
Mr. Washburn. Arthur Elder, I merely mentioned his name in that
he was working at the time for the International Eadies' Garment
Workers Union in their educational department along with Marc
Starr.
There was a conference in New York at which our educational di-
rector was invited to attend. He did attend and I asked our educa-
tional director, Mr. Henson, to contact Arthur Elder and Marc
Starr, and anybody else who would give him some leads in the Inter-
national Ladies' Garment Workers Union, who could give us some
information on Johnny Dio.
I was trying or I was asking him to do a little investigating for me
when he was on that trip.
Senator McNamara. There was no insinuation that Arthur Elder
had any contact with Dio ?
Mr. Washburn, Absolutely not.
Senator McNamara. I wanted the record to show that.
Mr. Washbt'rx. Arthur Elder, in my book, is very high caliber.
Senator McNamara. I agree thoroughly.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Washburn, you have testified to the fact that
3^ou, having discovered Dio's background, endeavored to oust him and
were outmaneuvered in your efforts.
Now, my question is, in your opinion, what was the reason that
a racketeer like Dio would want to get into the labor-union move-
ment and seek positions of control. What w\as his motive? Wliat
was the advantage to be to him ; that is, to expand his illegal activities
to include functions within the union ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3699
You had a chance to observe his methods and recognize that he
was trying to mnsicle in and, in fact, he did muscle in, and you tried
to keep him from muscling in.
In your opinion, why was he trying to get in? There were lots
of places that racketeers can profit themselves other than in a labor
union.
Mr, WASHBURisr. Oh, yes. There are racketeers in all phases of our
life right now. There isn't any question about that.
Senator Mundt. Why did he want to get into that particular
union ?
Mr. Washburn. To begin with, of course, shortly after we got
started in New York, this question of organizing taxicabs came up.
I was opposed to that, by the way.
But especially in that particular organizational effort, and after
learning what the history of the rackets in New York was, you could
see pretty well the advantages to any underworld organization to
have control of the taxicab drivers of New York.
It would be a pretty powerful outfit with approximately 30,000
members, if they succeeded in organizing them.
Senator Mundt. I can understand that.
Mr. Washburn. There are a lot of angles to the advantages along
that line. Of course, there are shakedowns of employers and lush
living off the dues and initiation fees of the members and there are
just a lot of angles to it — the pressure that you can wield politically
and everything else.
Senator ]\Iundt. It was all aimed at getting some easy money by
illegal methods ?
Mr. Washburn. I don't know that, but the possibilities were there,
certainly.
Senator Mundt. The reason that Communists work into the union,
and the reason the Communists try to seek control of an apparatus
like this one in New York is not usually for money.
Mr. AVashburn. Not as a rule ; no, sir.
Senator Mundt. They are after power.
Mr. Washburn. Power ; yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. And they are after power for political purposes.
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Some of them may be getting some money from
Moscow, but primarily they are after power.
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. And they are after power because they are trying
to do injury to this country, and benefit the Soviet Union. That is
€lear and understandable.
I am not going to participate in a debate as to which is worse. I
think that they are both pretty highly abomniable and tremendously
dangerous.
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And certainly from the standpoint of the general
public, the Communist menace is tremendously greater than the rack-
eteer because you have millions of Americans not directly affected
by the racketeers in control of the union, but all Americans would be
affected directly if the Communists got control of a city through get-
ting control of unions.
3700 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
But that is a philosophical argument that leads nowhere. What I
am trying to find out is the particular reasons why racketeers, to get
easy money by illegal practices in other fields should select control
of labor unions as a theater of activity.
You have said that enables them to get money by shakedown. It
enables them to collect dues and misuse the dues, and enjoy plush
living on the dues. Are there any other reasons ?
Mr. Washburn. I suppose there are a lot of them that I could not
tell you. I can't think of any at the moment.
Senator Mundt. Looking at the other side of the coin, you have
testified about the close friendly relationships, for example, between
Jimmy Hoffa and Dio, and others have mentioned that.
You brought in the picture of what was the supposed advantage to
Dio. "Wliat was the advantage to Jimmy Hoffa and other labor lead-
ers to form these friendly associations with the underworld?
Mr. Washburn. Well, so far as the advantages to Hoffa, sir, I
wouldn't know.
Senator Mundt. They must have had some motive.
Mr. Washburn. If Hoffa thought
Senator Mundt. They were joining up with these creepy char-
acters of the illegal underground.
Mr. Washburn. If Jimmy Hoffa thought. I suppose, that Johnny
Dio had some connections in New York that would make him a good
emissary of his in the organization field, or in comprimising people
to be on Jimmy Hoffa's side, I would say then Jimmy Hoffa might
be using Johnny Dio for the purpose of gaining power.
That would be the only thing I could see in the labor movement.
Senator Mundt. These underworld characters
Mr. Washburn. Other than tliat, I know nothing about Jimmy
Hoffa.
Senator Mundt. T am trying to explore this from the standpoint of
a man who is in the union. It is a little hard for me to understand both
sides of this unholy marriage that has been formed between some
labor leadei'S and some underworld characters.
Now, this occurs to me as a possibility : that these underworld char-
acters are pretty good technicians when it comes to rough stuff. It
might be that these union leaders were trying to organize a reluctant
plant and one might say that these are pretty good goons that they
could have available.
Underworld leaders know wlio these rough guys are, and maybe
that is tb.e reason that they need that kind of association.
Mr. Washburn. Well, T would say from the developments of the
situation that it looked to me like Jimmy Hoffa had his eye set on the
liresidency of the teamsters union, and that he was looking to enlarge
ins field of support, and I suppose he felt that Johnny Dio was in-
fluential in New York among certain forces and Johnny Dio might
be able to help him gain control of the New York Joint Council of
Teamsters.
That is how I got beat, in people lining up with Johnny Dio and
that crowd.
Senator Mundt. I wanted your own interpretation as to why. No. 1,
tlie underworld wants to join with the union and why certain union
officials want to join up with the underworld, and I am glad to have
the infoiTnation.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3701
You mentioned Mr. Dubinsky. Do you suppose that Dubinsky
inew about Sam Berger's activities ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, he did. I am satisfied that he did.
Senator Mundt. Because Berger, of course, was in his area of union
activity.
Mr. Washburn. I liad a conference with Dubinsky on the whole
matter.
Senator Mundt. Will you expand a little bit on what took place in
the conference?
Mr. Washburn. AVell, Dubinsky, of course, as you know at that
time, was a member of the — I don't know whether they called it
ethical practices committee of the AFL; this was before the merger —
and Dubinsky and Mr. Meany and McFatrick were a three-man com-
mittee looking into these matters.
Dubinsky was particularly rough with our union, which surprised
me somewhat because we had always been friendly, and all he would
say was to get rid of Dio.
Senator Mundt. Dubinsky said to get rid of Dio ?
Mr. Washburn. "He is no good, get rid of him." Well, in a labor
organization, it is like anything else. It is just like the courts of
our land. You can't convict a man without some evidence. You
can't convict him on nothing, and the only thing actually we could
pin down on Dio was the fact that he had been convicted for extortion.
We couldn't throw him out of our union for that and our constitu-
tional provision did not permit that. You can't just throw a man out
of a union and it wouldn't be right if you could, just arbitrarily to
throw him out without a trial.
When you have a trial, you have to have evidence. I thought that
Dubinsky being in New York, and being in the International Ladies'
Garment Workers Union, and being involved in having the trucking
industry being racket-ridden in the industry for many years, and
knowing all about the so-called Lepke mob, and Murder Incorporated,
and so on, you couldn't live in New York without knowing something
about that, and especially you can't live in the ILG without knowing
something about it.
I thought Dave Dubinsky could have been some help to us when
this matter came up. I went to Dave Dubinsky, and I asked him for
some information. I said, "What have you got that I can use in our
union to get rid of Johnny Dio ?"
He went and he got the files on Johnny Dio and all he had was a
bunch of newspaper clippings from the New York Times.
I said, "Dave, I have got the same thing. I can't convict a man
in our union and you couldn't convict a man in your union on those
newspaper clippings."
He said, "He is no good. Get rid of him." Then he got real excited
about the fact, about 102 of our union, the first union we chartered
there, being the same number as Sam Berger's local union, in his
union.
He thought that there was a tieup there. Actually, it was coinci-
dental. There was no tieup between the fact that the two locals
happened to be the same number. It was the next number in line that
we were issuing as far as charters were concerned. Sam Berger was
in the office when we talked about it, and he said, "Well, that is the
3702 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
number of my union." I said, "Of course, you don't have to take that
one if you don't want to, and if you think that it is going to hurt
anything or be confusing and take another one."
"No," he says, "It might be a good omen." And so we left it 102.
That is actually the story. Mr. Dubinsky never believed that, even
from me, but that is neither here nor there.
Then he got into the question of Sam Berger's connection with
Johnny Dio and so I asked him, and I said, "If Sam Berger is a close
associate of Johnny Dio's for as many years as you say he is, and he is
as bad a character as you say he is, why is he still w^orking for
thelLG?"
Senator Mundt. What did he say to that ?
Mr. Washburn. He said, "We consider him less dano-erous in than
out."
Senator Mundt. Did he elaborate on that any ?
Mr. Washburn. No ; that is all he said.
Senator Iyes. You know ]ie is out now ; do you not ?
Mr. Washburn. A long time, after, sir. He also knew Johnny Dio,
but denied it to me. When I proved that Johnny Dio had once
worked for his organization on a special assignment, he got pretty
excited. He got pretty excited and I got pretty mad at Mr. Dubinsky
at that time for
Senator Mundt. Did Dio work for ILG ?
Mr. Washburn. I found out through Johnny Dio and other
sources — after this vice president reported that Johnny Dio was O. K.,
then I felt that tliere was some information that I could have had
or should have had from the ILG to help us get rid of Johnny Dio
if they wanted him out of the labor movement so bad.
Senator Mundt. And it was after that
Mr. Washburn. So Dubinsky got pretty mad at me. He said he
didn't even know Johnny Dio. I said, "Mr. Dubiusky, I understand
that he worked for your organization, one time on a special assign-
ment."
"I don't even know the man," he said.
I named the plant and city in whicli he worked, and he got very
excited. His only reply was, "Well, there is sometimes," he says, "we
hire people to do certain jobs for us, but we don't let them get on the
inside of the organization."
Senator Mundt. You say you named the plant. ^Vhat plant was it,
what city?
Mr. Washburn. Well, I didn't have the name of the plant, actually.
It was Roanoke, Va.
Senator Mundt. Roanoke, Va. ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right. He was assigned to that job by the
vice president of the ILG. The man's name, I don't know. The only
information I could get on it in trying to pin it down was that his
wife was Dave Dubinsky's personal secretary.
Senator Mundt. His wife was Dave Dubinsky's personal secretary ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator JNIundt. About what time, what year?
Mr. Washburn. I would say that was about — well, the actual time
that the job was done I don't know. But it was pretty recent. I mean
recent in terms of then, at the time I was talking to Mr. Dubinsky.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3703
Senator Mundt. Well, could you give us a general area? "VNHiat
j^eriod of time are we talking about?
Mr. Washburx. The exact date he was in Roanoke, Ya., on that
job, I don't know.
Senator Muxdt. Would you say it was the 19o0"s, the 1920's, or
what?
Mr. Washburn. It was later than that. I would sa}' it was pretty
close to the 1950's. I gatliered it was pretty close to the time that
Johnny Dio became connected with our union.
Senator Mundt. Do you recall the name of Dubinsky's secretary?
Mr. Washburn. No ; I don't. I never knew her. I never knew her
name. I gathered, after the information I got from our educational
director, that the vice president that had stated that Johnny Dio was
all right and a good man, I assumed then that that was the same vice
president that probably assigned Johnny Dio to do this job. It
happened to be a plant, as I understand it, that Dubinsky's organiza-
tion had tried to organize for many years, and was never able to
cr'ack it.
So they apparently were trying another way to get it, and used
Johnny Dio to do it.
Senator Mundt. That would lead back to the assumption I made
earlier. ^Vliat the labor leaders seek and secure with their connection
with underworld characters, is that they have their men who are
experts in high pressure, experts in goon squad activities, experts in
trying to persuade reluctant plants to come along because of their
capacity to intimidate and coerce.
What you have testified about the Roanoke, Va., plant seems to
square ])retty neatly with that particular hypothesis.
Mr. Washburn. Well, my faith in people, I mean, was shaken quite
a bit by that situation. I always had a lot of respect for the ILG.
And I had a lot of respect for Dubinsky. But when he was in a posi-
tion to help and wouldn't help, I just began to wonder why. Then I
found out.
Senator Mundt. You found out that probably the reason he would
not help was because he, himself, had employed Dio or had associated
himself with Dio.
Mr. Washburn. Well, he probably had become involved is the best
I can figure out.
Senator Mundt. Well, any labor leader who employs or utilizes
an underworld character ultimately gets involved to the point where
he no longer is a free agent.
Mr. Washburn. That is right. They are on the hook and it is
pretty hard to get off.
Senator JMundt. This in interesting. It is the same identical proce-
dure with the Communists. They get a fellow going along with them
for awhile on comparatively unimportant matters and then thej^ stick
in the barb and pin him down that they otherwise would expose him.
Mr. Washburn. What bothered me so much was because he was
really riding me in my organization, and at the same time he wouldn't
help when he could have helped.
Senator Mundt. You could not elicit from Mr. Dubinsky any
further reason why he continued his association with Sam Berger
except that he said it was easier to get along with him in the union
than out?
3704 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Washburn. It was more than that. He said, "We consider
him less dangerous in than he ^YOuld be out." And when you got back
into Sam Berger's history, back quite a few years into the fight in
the trucking industry, the trucking business in the garment industry,
you can guess a little bit why.
Senator Mundt. You could guess better than I could, because you
know more about the background. What would be your guess ?
Mr. Washburn. Wliat?
Senator Mundt. I say you could guess better than I could because
you know more about Sam Berger's background activities than I do.
Wliat would your guess be ?
Mr. Washburn. I don't know whether I do or not. All I know
is what I could find out from records and so forth.
I was a little surprised to find a person like that in the ILG, I will
tell you that very frankly, and have him supported and still be there
for some length of time.
Also, somewhat surprised to find out the fact that while I was sit-
ting in the audience here yesterday, that finally we get news that
Paul Dorfman is suspended by the American Federation of Labor.
Finally.
When we, as an international union, almost got kicked out because
we didn't get rid of Dio, who was brought into our organization
through Dorfman.
Senator Mundt. I thought that was a little late myself,
Mr. Washburn. It was plenty late.
Senator Mundt. Thank you.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman? '
The Chairman. I have one other question. I am trying to get some
background.
You referred awhile ago to the close association and friendship of
Mr. Hoffa and Johnny Dio. How long has that friendship continued,
to your knowledge ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, just about the same period of time, sir, that
Johnny Dio was connected with our union, from, about the time —
well, from my Imowledge, from the time I first found out about Dio,
which was a short time after we first chartered local 102 in New York,
from that time until now. I mean, I say now — since I have been out
of the labor movement, all I know about it is what I read in the paper.
The Chairman. Is that association and friendship such that you
would conclude that Mr. Hoffa is bound to know of the character
and reputation of Johnny Dio ?
^ Mr. Washburn. Well, I don^t know whether I could put it exactly
like that, but I would say that if I know, and if I could find out, I
am certain that Jimmy Hoffa could have, and probably did.
^ The Chairman. I do not want to convict anyone just by associa-
tion, but we have a character here, I think you pretty well agree, that
does not belong in any position of authority in the" labor movement.
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
The Chairman. And here we have a pretty high man in unionism,
with a close association with this party. My imderstanding is that
he has made some statements about his friendship for Johnny Dio.
Do you have any information about that?
Mr. Washburn. There was one statement that I think was rather
-a public statement that came out in the press, that he considered
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3705
Johnny Dio to be a friend of his. I don't know personallj^ about that.
I also don't know personally about another situation that after I
suspended Johnny Dio and pulled the charters on the six locals in
New York there was a State federation convention in Michigan, and
Jimmy Hoffa, of course, was there. I wasn't there because I had
just resigned. It was just a few days after I resigned. But Jimmy
Hoffa made a statement to the press out at the Grand Rapids con-
vention to the effect that this business of charges of racketeering
and all of the charges against Dio that I had made was rather silly
and asinine because there was no truth in them, and now that the
charters had been restored and Johnny Dio had been reinstated back
in the union by the international and executive board after I left,
that everything was peace and harmony in New York. That was the
statement that he made.
The Chairman. You suspended Dio?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
The Chairman. And took up the chartei-s of those locals ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
The Chairman. You did that as president of the union, of the
intei'national ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
The Chairman. Then your executive board overruled you and
reinstated Dio and returned the charters ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that when you left?
Mr. Washburn. I left the next day. After that board meeting
adjourned, I left.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman ?
The CH.\niMAN. ^Y\\Rt date was that? May 1954?
Mr. Washburn. It was May 8 when I resigned. The board meetings
adjourned, I think, on a Thursday or Wednesday, and I resigned as
of Friday, the end of the week.
Mr. Kennedy. May 1954. It was not 1953.
Mr. Washburn. Was it 1954? I haven't been out as long as I
thought I had.
The Chairiman. Senator Goldwater?
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Washburn, you suspended Johnny Dio on
April 22, 1954, and the meeting of the executive board was called for
May 5, 1954. At that time, Mr. Doria offered amendments to your
original action that, in effect, erased your efforts to get rid of him.
Is that substantially correct ?
Mr. Washburn. I wouldn't say that Doria made the motion.
Senator Goldwater. Pardon ?
Mr. Washburn. I wouldn't say that Doria made the motion. To
the best of my recollection, Earl Heaton made the motion.
Senator Goldwater. Well, Doria or Heaton, what motives would
they have to try to keep Dio in the union ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, Doria, of course, was an ally of Johnny
Dio's, and was the main problem that I had in the union. I knew
that whenever I attempted to make a move against Johnny Dio that
I would have a first-class fight on my hands.
Doria, there was not question about it, was an associate, a very
close associate of Johnny Dio's.
3706 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
All the contacts from Dio to our organization were made to Doria.
Dio would never contact me except on a very minor matter.
(At this point, Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Goldwater. To your knowledge, had Doria or Heaton at
any time had any connection with the ILG?
Mr. Washburn. No.
Senator Goldwater. Any connection with Dubinsky ?
Mr. Washburn. No.
Senator Goldwater. So that there would be no reason to suspect
that Dubinsky or the members of the ILG might have had some effect
in the effort to keep Dio in your union ?
Mr. Washburn. No. I don't want anybody to misunderstand my
previous testimony. I don't think that there was any design on the
part of anybody in the ILG with the possible exception of Sam Berger,
on placing or keeping anybody like Johnny Dio in our union.
My conclusions to my experience is that Dave Dubinsky could have
helped but didn't because of circumstances. It might have exposed
something in his own union. That is the way I feel about it and I am
quite convinced of it.
That is as far, I think, that the ILG's connection with the situation
goes, as far as our own union situation is concerned.
Senator Goldwater. Earlier, when I first started questioning you,
you wondered whether or not questions along these lines were perti-
nent to this particular investigation.
I have here what I consider to be the key sentence of the resolution
adopted by the last Communist Party convention. I want to read
it to you, because I think you are going to agree that gangsterism,
racketeering, and communism, are two evils that are possibly related,
but they are certainly related in their desire to get power.
This is very short. I will quote from it :
To a degree the cooperation of labor reformists (trade union leaders who
stand for capitalism and with no Socialist background or traditions), social re-
formists (those labor leaders like Dubinsky, Reuther, Randolph, et cetera, who
have a Socialist background), and bourgeois reformists (liberal wing of the
Democratic Party) in such organizations as Americans for Democratic Action
is, in the absence of a mass social democratic party in the United States, and
under the conditions prevailing in our country, performing the function of social
democracy.
That was adopted in the last Communist Party convention in the
United States. I think it points out more clearly than anything I can
say why we as United States Senators are interested in not only the
infiltration of Communists into the orio-injil CIO, but the infiltration
of gangsters and hoodlums into the AFL and into the CIO, also.
I do not say that to be critical of you, nor of your union. I just
read it to point out why I was pursuing the line of questioning that
T was.
I think you responded splendidly. I think you realize the danger
as probably very few union leaders do. I just wanted to put this into
the record so you would understand my reasons for the questioning
that I was following.
Senator Mundt. Is that resolution you quoted from. Senator Gold-
water, from the Communist convention, or was that a labor conven-
tion?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3707
Senator Goldwater. It was adopted at the last Communist Party
<jonvention held in the United States, the date of which I do not
have.
Senator Mundt. In other words, that is part of the present day
Communist line that we hear so much about, the change and so forth.
It incorporates that.
Incidentally, I can assure you it is not much of a change from the
old Communist line, because I have been reading Communist con-
vention platforms for 20 years. That kind of thing has popped up
time after time, the tactics of the Communists to employ wherever
they can respectable organizations and intertwine them with the Com-
munist apparatus in order to achieve the power that they seek, which
they seek for the purpose of trying to weaken the defense potential of
this country. I think it is a tremendously important statement. Sena-
tor Goldwater, and I am glad to put it into the record.
Senator Goldwater. To my mind, there is no question but that it
was, and it still is, the intent of the Communist Party to infiltrate in
every way the trade movement in this country.
In fact, during World War II, if my memory serves me coiTectly,
a strike was called at the North American plant to prevent the ship-
ment of fighters to overseas bases. I think that was probably the
first time that Mv. Reuther became really concerned about the extent
to which control had been obtained by the Communists in the CIO.
I think if we read history we will find that from that time on there
has been, more or less, an effort to clean out the Communists.
That strike was not successful, but it points out what could be done
in the event of another war.
I think they would be far more successful in stopping our defense
efforts than they were in the last war.
Senator Mundt. I am also glad that you stated it for this reason :
It is hard for me to constantly realize and accept the fact that the
racketeers, big league thugs, need to procure the dues of laboring men
in order to get the plush living which they otherwise get. To the
uninitiated, it is a little difficult, I suppose, to realize the big power
grab that the Communists seek, for which they would pay millions of
hundreds of millions of illegal money. Once you have concentrated
that in the hands of a few men who are unscrupulous and willing to
sell out their associates for gold and for loot, you have a situation
which is very attractive to the Communists.
I think in hearing testimony of this kind, so frequently Americans
who have not had this background of study of the Communist move-
ment are inclined to listen to the music which comes from playing the
flyspecks on the sheet music rather than the dots, the dashes, the
sharps, and the notes. You do not establish a tremendous concentra-
tion of power such we are talking about the possibility of here in
order to pick up a couple of dollars a week from a laboring man. You
do that because you are aiming at a big target.
I hope that the American public will learn that we are wrestling
with a problem of first-class magnitude. This is not a peanut-stand
program that we are trying to stop and avert.
You were talking about this conference, Mr. Washburn, that you
had with Dubinsky. I do not believe we dated that. Could you tell
us about when that conference was?
3708 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Washburn. It would be probably sometime in 1952, sir. The
exact date I couldn't remember.
Senator Mundt. Early in 1952?
Mr. Washburn. Somewhere in about 1952. It might have been
1951.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Chief Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequent to this meeting that you had with Mr.
Dubinsky, was Mr. Dio appointed as regional director in New York
City, in the New York area?
Mr. Washburn. Prior to that time, yes.
Mr. I^NNEDT. Did he continue in that position?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And various charters were granted by the UAW-
AFL to individuals in the New York City area upon his recommenda-
tion ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, they were granted, not intended for in-
dividuals. They were granted to, supposedly, groups of workers.
Of course, with Dio as acting director in this area, it would nat-
urally come through him in the course of the operations of a union.
Mr. Kennedy. As you had a feeling or some suspicion about Johnny
Dio, why did you continue to allow him to be the one to direct your
operations in the New York area ?
Mr. Washburn. Well, it was a board decision, in the first place,
to put him on. I wasn't in a position to stage that kind of a fight
at that time, the kind of a fight I knew it would be.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wlio would have opposed you in the board ?
Mr. Washburn. Doria, at the outset.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Who ran the operations in the New York area for
the international?
Mr. Washburn. Well, Doria was Dio's contact all the time. As I
said before, he very seldon contacted me except on very minor matters.
Mr. Kennedy. "\Y1io are Doria's contacts? ^^^^o are his close as-
sociates in the labor movement?
Mr. Washburn. About the same as Dio's.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio are they?
Mr. Washburn. Jimmy Hoffa, Paul Dorfman, O'Rourke, of the
teamsters, and
Mr. Kennedy. Sam Berger?
Mr. Washburn. Sam Berger.
Mr. Kennedy. You spoke earlier about the fact that you under-
stood that Dio and Hoffa were close friends. Could you tell th&
committee what you base that on ?
^ Mr. Washburn. Well, just on the basis of conferences and conven-
tions that were held at different times in the union, in the AFL Hoffa
and Doria and Dio, they all hung around together. They all hung
around together and associated together socially, and had frequent
meetings. Of course, as far as Doria is concerned, there was no ques-
tion about his support and loyalty to Dio, because he didn't make any
bones about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Dio speak to you also about his friendship with
Jimmy Hoffa?
Mr. Washburn. No. Dio never talked to me very much. I mean,
if we were together at times, it would be just general conversation
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
3709
about Hoffa and different people that he professed to know, and to be
friends with.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Vlien Dio was granting these charters, or the
charters were being granted by the international through Dio, did you
make an examination or investigation of the people to whom these
charters were being granted ?
Mr. "Washburn. No. There wasn't any particular reason to, and
I couldn't — that is, we never had made an investigation as to who the
charters were going to, because they were usually recommended by our
people in the field, as a general rule. We had never run into any
trouble on a charter before in the history of our union, to my knowl-
edge, until we ran into this 102. Then as we got into that, I knew we
were into something, and my investigations, of course, had to be with-
out anybody's knowledge because I just didn't want the fight to start
until I was ready to have it start.
Mr. Kennedy. INIr. Chairman, we have a list here of the charters
that were granted in the New York area by the international while
Johnny Dioguardi was director of operations.
Could he identify them and we will have that list made a part of
the record ?
The Chairman. The Chair presents to you a list of locals that were
chartered in the New York area during the time that Dioguardi was
director of that area. I will ask you to examine this list and see if it
IS accurate.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Washburn. I think it is.
The Chairman. That may be printed in the record at this point.
(Document referred to follows:)
Charters issued 'by International Union, VAW (ALF), while John Dioguardi
was director of activities for that union in New York
Local
Description
Date
Remarks
136
138
648
3d 102 '
Amalgamated, Long Island, N. Y
Amalgamated, eastern Pennsylvania and
southern New Jersey.
Amalgamated Metal Working Industries,
New York, N. Y.
Taxicab drivers
Oct. 15,1951
Nov. 13, 1951
Feb. 4, 1952
Mar. 17, 1952
do
Oct. 13, 1952
Oct. 14,1952
Jan. 13.1953
Feb. 17,1953
June—, 1953
Sept. 15. 1953
Oct. 19,19.53
Nov. 3, 1953
Nov. 9,1953
Louis Lasky, Feb. 20, 1953;
revoked June 17.
Dissolved Apr. 22, 1954.
Abe Saul, attorney; never
active.
Withdrawn June 1953; AFL
649'
185
250'
198'
355'.
214
Amalgamated, Greater New York and vicinity..
Taxi meciianics, New York City
Amalgamated, New York, N. Y
Amalgamated, Bronx, N. Y
Amalgamated, New York, N. Y
pressures.
Became 269, teamsters.
Revoked; never active.
Became 362, teamsters.
Extortioi indictment.
Now independent.
Never active.
224'
225
Amalgamated, New York, N. Y
Now Independent.
Out of existence July 6, 1955.
227 '
Became 284, teamsters.
228 '
Amalgamated Long Island, N. Y -
Out of existence July 6, 1955.
' Are those on the chart.
Note.— Not all of these are shown on the chart because they became inactive at very early dates and
played no part in subsequent activities.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. When the taxi drive started at the end of 1951 and
continued in part of 1952 and part of 1953, ultimately the Interna-
tional T'AW was forced to give up that taxicab drive, is that right?
Mr. Wa.shburn. Yes.
3710 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did you take part in tlie negotiations with the team-
sters union about their taking over the drive?
Mr. Washburn. No,
Mr. Kennedy. You did not. Who handled that ?
Mr. AVashburn. Doria.
Mr. Kennedy. That was all handled by Anthony Doria for your
union ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Avith whom he had conferences on that
matter ?
Mr. Washburn. The teamsters appointed a committee to handle
that. I think Einar Mohn was one of the members on the committee.
At the moment, that is about the only name that I can think of.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Harold Gibbons on that committee?
Mr. Washburn. I don't know whether Gibbons was on that or not.
I remember a remark by either Dio or Doria at the time, that the
makeup of the committee was satisfactory.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that the teamsters were going-
to take your operation into the teamsters ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they going to take Dio with them.?
Mr. Washburn. That was supposed to be part of the negotiations,
as I understand it.
The Chairman. The committee will have to suspend. That was
a signal for a rollcall vote in the Senate. We will return as soon as
the vote has been cast and resume the hearings.
(Members present at the taking of the recess: Senators McClellan,
McNamara, Gold water, Mundt, and Curtis.)
(Whereupon, at 11 :20 a. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., the same day.)
afternoon session
The Chairman. The hearing will be in order.
(Members present at the convening of the session: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Ives, and Goldwater.)
The Chairman. Mr. Washburn, will you come around again, please ?
TESTIMONY OF LESTER WASHBURN— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Washburn, at the conclusion this morning, we
were discussing the taxicab drive of local 102, which was headed by
Mr. Dio and I was asking you about the arrangements that were made
with the teamsters union regarding the taking over of the taxicab
drive.
Now, were there negotiations conducted originally that Mr. Dio and
his operation were to go into the teamsters or to come into the team-
sters ?
Mr. WAsnp,i'RN. The proposition was, or the attempt was on Dio
and Doria's ])art, to have the teamsters take over the taxi union and
continue the drive with the same organizational setup and the same
personnel.
Mr. Kennedy. Tl\at would be Mr. Dio.
Mr, Washburn. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3711
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know who in the teamsters was interested
in having that done, or were you informed ?
Mr. Washburn. No; I don't.
Mr, Kennedy. You were not informed ?
Mr. Washburn. No; I wasn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember who the negotiations were with,
regarding that aspect of things (
Mr. Washburn. Well, as 1 said this morning, there was a committee
appointed apparently by Mr. Beck, and I am quite sure that Einar
Mohn was on it, and who the other 2 members of the committee, it
was a 3-man committee, I just couldn't say.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know why Mr. Dio was not brought into the
o})eration of the teamsters at that time ?
jNIr. Washburn. Only from reports that I received from Mr. Doria.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand it was because of the opposition
of the vice president in the area, Mr. Tom Hickey I
Mr. Washburn. Well, now maybe I didn't quite get your question
clear. Are you talking about the conferences to take over the taxi-
cabs 'I
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; and I know they took the taxicab drive over,
but now I am talking about the move that was underway to take over
the personnel such as ]Mr. Dio into the teamsters union to conduct that
drive.
]Mr. Washburn. Maybe I can do it better if I just relate what I
know about it.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be fine.
Mr. Washburn. As I understand it, conferences were held and
Doria was in on the conferences according to his reports to me. They
reported that it was agreed that this committee had agreed to take
over the taxi union and continue the drive, with the same persoimel.
Doria was also interested in trying to g,^i our union repaid for the
amount of money we had spent on the drive. That was supposed to
be taken care of according to Doria's report.
Conferences were held in New York, There was supposed to be
a final conference in Washington, at which Dave Beck was to be present
and the final agreement or conclusions made.
Dona was to meet with Beck at noon on what date I don't remember,
I couldn't give you the date, but as I get the story, Mr. Meany had a
meeting with Beck at breakfast that morning, and the conference at
noon never took place.
(At this point. Senators McNamara and Curtis entered the hearing
room.)
Mr. Kennedy. The conference at noon — was that the conference
that was supposed to formulate the agreement to take in the person-
nel ?
Mr. Washburn. It was supposed to be, sir. The meeting, as I got
the report, was supposed to be the meeting at wliich Beck was to put
liis stamp of ap])roval on it. The committee had, as I understood it,
already agreed to take over the cab union and the drive and the per-
sonnel lock, stock, and barrel, and to give some consideration to the
money that our union had put in the drive,
Mr. Kennedy. Who was in the teamsters union that ]irevented the
personnel of your drive — namely, Mr. Dio — from coming into the
teamsters?
3712 IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Washburn. I don't know as it was anybody in tlie teamsters
union. I giye credit for blocking the whole deal to George JMeany.
Mr, Kennedy. George Meany prevented it?
Mr. WASHBrRN. As far as I know. I understand there was a break-
fast meeting between Dave Beck and George Meany that morning of
the day that the deal was supposed to be concluded, and the conference
at noon to conclude the deal never took place.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that Mr. Hoffa at that time was
interested in having your personnel and your work that you had clone
brought over into the teamsters union ?
Mr. Washburn. I understood Hoffa was in favor of it; yes, sir.
(xVt this point in the proceedings, Senator Kennedy entered the
hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy'. Did you understand that he had participated in some
of the meetings in New York and in Washington in connection with
this?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, but I could not say that he was participating
as a member of the committee because I don't know, and I don't think
Hoffa was a member of that committee.
Mr. Kennedy^. But he was actively interested.
Mr. Washburn. He was in and around at the time those confer-
ences were going on.
Mr. Kennedy'. Did you imderstand from the conversations that you
had with Mr. Doria at the time that he was actively interested in
Mr. Dio and your taxicab personnel being brought into the teamsters?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir. It was quite generally known that Mr.
Hoffa was interested in promoting that, and in fact I think he used
his influence on the committee.
Mr. Kennedy^. Now, Mr. Chairman, this morning you were dis-
cussing, Mr. Washburn, about what occurred regarding the lifting
of the various charters in New York in 1954:, and we have some docu-
ments regarding that that I would like to have made a part of the
record, if we may, also Mr. Washburn's suspension or removal of
Mr. Johnnv Dioguardi at that time as regional director in New York
City.
The CiTAiRMAN. The Chair hands you what appears to be a carbon
copy of a letter dated April 22, 1954, from you as international pres-
ident to John Dioguardi.
Will you please examine that and state if it is a carbon copy of your
letter to Mr. Dioguardi ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
I\Ir. Washburn. Yes.
The Chairman. That letter may be published in the record at this
point.
( The letter referred to follows : )
April 22, 1954.
Mr. John Dioguardi.
.577 0th Avenue, New York, N. Y.
Dear Sir: In accordance with the authority vested in me as international pres-
ident, please be advised that effective immediately any membership you may
hold or claim to hold in the International Union UAW-AFL, or any of its local
unions, and any office, titles, oi- commissions you may claim to hold as a repre-
sentative of the international union or any of its local unions are hereby termi-
nated. This action has become necessary in light of the continued activities
of yourself and some of your associates which has brought disrespect and dis-
grace to the International T'nion. Ignited Automobile Workers of America, AFL,
and to the labor movement generally. Misrepresentation and extortion have no
UMPEOPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3713
place in the framework of a legitimate labor organizatiou and will not be
tolerated in the UAW-AFL.
In view of the above, you are hereby requested to return to me immediately
any books, documents, papers, funds, or evidence of ownership of any funds and
other property that may be in your possession or under your control which is the
property of the International Union UAW-AFL.
In addition to the above, and effective immediately, the charters of UAW-AFL
Local Unions 214, 224, 225, 227, 228, and 355 are hereby revoked. Inasmuch as
these charters are now under the control of yourself and your associates, you
are hereby requested to see that they are returned to me. together with all records
and supplies that are the property of the International Union UAW-AFT^, at
the earliest possible date.
Yours truly,
Lester Washburn,
International President,
The Chairman. I hand you then what appears to be 5 carbon copies
of letters written by you to 5 different parties, whom I assume were the
presidents of those 5 locals whose charters you lifted. Will you exam-
ine these copies please, and state if you identify them ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes.
The Chairman. Those five copies may be printed in the record also.
Those are the letters where you wrote lifting the charters of the five
locals ?
Mr. WASHBTiTiN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The other letter you identified was the one expel-
ling Johnny Dioguardi?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, sir.
(The five documents above referred to follow :)
April 22, 1954.
Mr. Harry Davidoff,
1780 Broadway, New York, N. Y.
Dear Sir : Enclosed is a copy of a letter addressed to John Dioguardi which
is self-explanatory. If you are still connected in any way with Local No. 228
UAW-AFL, you are herewith requested to return to me immediately the charter,
supplies, and any other documents with respect to the said Local No. 228
UAW-AFL
Yours truly,
Lester Washburn,
International President.
April 22, 1954.
Mr. Harold Krieger,
591 Summit Avenue, Jersey/ City, N. J.
Dear Sir : Enclosed is a copy of a letter addressed to John Dioguardi which
is self-explanatory. If you are still connected in any way with Local No. 355,
UAW-AFL, you are herewith requested to return to me immediately the charter,
supplies, and anv other documents with respect to the said Local No. 355,
UAW-AFL.
Your truly,
Lester Washburn,
Interna lion al President.
April 22, 1954.
Mr. Joseph H. Reitman,
2151 Ocean Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Dear Sir: Enclosed is a copy of a letter addressed to John Dioguardi which
is self-explanatory. If you are still connected in any way with Local No. 214,
UAW-AFL, you are hereby requested to return to me immediately the charter,
supplies, and anv other documents with respect to the said local No. 214,
UAW-AFL.
Your truly,
Lester Washburn,
International President.
803.30— 57— pt. 10 9
3714 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
April 22, 1954.
Mr. Stanley Seglin,
IIH DeKalb Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Dear Sir : Enclosed is a copy of a letter addressed to John Dioguardi which
is self-explanatory. If you are still connected in any way with Local 224, UAW-
AFL, you are herewith requested to I'eturn to me immediately the charter, sup-
plies, and any other documents with respect to the said Local 224, UAW-AFL.
Yours truly,
Lester Washburn,
International President.
April 22, 1954.
Mr. Arthur Santa Maria,
8218 Uth Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y.
Dear Sir : Enclosed is a copy of a letter addressed to John Dioguardi which is
self-explanatory. If you are still connected in any way with Local 227, UAW-
AFL, you are herewith requested to return to me immediately the charter, sup-
plies, and any other documents with respect to the said Local 227, UAW-AFL.
Tours truly,
Lester Washburn,
International President.
The Chairman. Did you receive an answer to your letter to Mr.
Dioguardi ?
Mr. Washburn. No, He was in jail at the time that I sent the
letter.
The Chairman. He was in jail?
Mr. Washburn. Yes.
The Chairman. I do not know whether this is written in jail or
not, but I will ask you to examine this letter and see if you recall it.
That is the one I now hand you.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Washburn. I remember that now, and I didn't remember it
before.
The Chairman. Will you read that letter, please ?
It mav be printed in the record at this point. State what it is.
Mr. Washburn (reading) :
Airmail
Registered mail
Return receipt requested
April 24, 1954.
Mr. Lester Washburn,
President, United Automobile Workers of America,
Milwaukee, Wis.
Dear Sir and Brother : I have your letter as of April 22, 1954, setting forth
my expulsion on the basis of the authority vested in you as international
president.
Please axcept (sic) this letter as my appeal from such action to the interna-
tional executive board, I would like to be notified of the time and place of the
meeting of the international executive board, so that I may be able to appear
in order to present my own case before the international executive board, or file
evidence with the international executive board.
Fraternally yours,
John Dioguardi
By J. C.
President, Local 649 UAW, American Federation of Labor.
Mr. Washburn. It says "by J. C," and I don't know who that is by.
The Chair^sean. Do you recall having received that letter?
Mr. Washburn. I do recall.
The Chairman. And the appeal was taken ?
Mr. Washburn. An appeal was taken.
IIVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3715
The Chair]vian. Who constituted
Mr. Washburn. After I resigned, however.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Washburn. An appeal was taken, but it was after I resigned.
The Chairman. Who constituted the executive board to whom he
appealed ? Give their names.
Mr. Washburn. You mean the names of the members ?
The Chairman. The names of the members of the board to whom
he appealed.
Mr. Washburn. Well, myself, of course, as president of the interna-
tional union ; Anthony Doria, as secretary-treasurer ; George Gresham,
vice president ; Frank Evans, board member at large.
Carl Smeagle, board member from region No. 3, which would be
eastern Ohio. Morris Wientraub, regional director of region 4, which
would be western Ohio and Kentucky. I. Lopogle, board member and
director of region 6, which would be eastern Michigan.
Edward Donohue, board member of, and regional director of west-
ern Michigan, region No. 7. Earl Heaton, board member and di-
rector of region 8, which would be Illinois and Indiana and Missouri.
Carl Greipentrog, board member and director of region 9, which in-
cluded Wisconsin and North and South Dakota and Chicago.
The Chairman. That makes 10 members, a total of 10 members?
Mr. Washburn. A total of 10 members, sir.
The Chairman. Now, you had resigned ?
Mr. Washburn. No. IVhen do you mean ? I beg your pardon.
The Chairman. Before the appeal was taken, I thought you said.
Mr. Washburn. Before the appeal was taken. However, there was
a special board meeting called right after I took the action.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Washburn. There was a special meeting of the international
executive board right after I took the action. Johnny Dio was in
jail, and his appeal could not be acted upon and I did not notice the
date of that letter when I just looked at it.
The Chairman. What I am trying to get is, were you president and
did you participate in this board meeting?
Mr. Washburn. On the appeal, no.
The Chairman. You had resigned, I understood you to say, by the
time the board considered the appeal or before it considered the ap-
peal.
Mr. Washburn. Before it considered the appeal ; yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Well, there were two different board meetings, and
you resigned at the conclusion of the first meeting, is that correct?
Mr. Washburn. That is correct.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Washburn. Because the board voted to rescind my action.
The Chairman. They voted to rescind your action ?
Mr. Washburn. Regarding suspension of Dio, and the lifting of
the charters in New York.
The Chairman. They did that even before the appeal was taken ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
The Chairman. You were present then, when they voted to rescind
your action?
Mr. Washburn. I was present.
3716 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. And to restore these unions and also restore Dio-
guardi to his position ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
The Chairman. What was the vote?
Mr. Washburn. Well, the vote was 7 to 2, not counting mine. I
did not vote.
The Chairman. Seven to two?
JNIr. Washburn. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you remember who of these voted favorably
on the motion to restore these unions and Dioguardi ?
Mr, Washburn. Very well.
The Chairman. Name the seven who voted accordingly.
Mr. Washburn. The seven that voted against my action were An-
thony Doria, secretary-treasurer; Gresham, vice president; Carl Smea-
gle, I. Lopogle, Earl Heaton, and Carl Greipentrog.
The Chairman. That makes six.
Mr. Washburn. And Frank Evans.
The Chairman. There were only two who supported you, Donahue
and Wientraub.
Mr. Washburn. Yes ; they supported my action.
Senator McNamara. You indicate that at this first board meeting
they rescinded your order suspending or expelling Dio.
Mr. Washburn. Yes.
Senator McNamara. What would be the occasion to have him make
the appeal if they had already reinstated him in effect by reversing
your suspension?
Mr. Washburn. Yes, they did. They rescinded the action and they
did hold in abeyance Dio's suspension.
Senator McNamara. I am trying to understand. How do you ex-
plain this ?
Mr. Washburn. As far as I am concerned, by the action of the
board and in such a meeting, it was quite a battle, and there were a
lot of things said, and a lot of positions taken. By and large, they
rescinded my entire action.
Senator McNamara. Did that not in effect reinstate him ?
Mr. Washburn. In effect, it did, but they went through the process
for publicity purposes of voting a hearing in order to give Johnny Dio
a clean bill of health.
Senator McNamara. What year was this ?
Mr. Washburn. This would be in 1954.
Senator McNamara. Was this before he was convicted of extortion ?
Mr. Washburn. Oh, this was after that. What do you mean ? You
mean this recent conviction? His first conviction for extortion as I
get it was back in 1934 or 1935 or somewhere along there.
Senator McNamara. In 1934 or 1935 before he was a member?
Mr. Washburn. Yes ; before I ever knew him.
Senator McNamara. Before he had any connection with organized
labor?
Mr. Washburn. I don't know what connection he had.
Senator McNamara. Or you know of any connection he had.
Mr. Washburn. That I know of ; yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. And then what pressure was he using to extort
money then, do you know ?
Mr. Washburn. No ; I don't.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3717
Senator McNamara, Then he was a businessman at this time ?
Mr. Washburn. For all I knew, he was a businessman.
Senator McNamara. He was in the dress-manufacturing business?
Mr. Washburn. Yes ; and florists' shops.
Senator McNamara. It is hard to find out how this businessman
was involved in the extortion. If the record shows that, I think we
ought to have an explanation. But you do not have the facts?
Mr, Washburn. He is quite a mixed-up character and I don't have
the facts.
Senator McNamara. Many characters are mixed up. Apparently
his first connection with organized labor was when he was issued a
charter by your union.
Mr. Washburn. As far as I know ; yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. And he got into the teamsters union because
you were ordered to transfer this local miion that he represented into
the teamsters ?
Mr. Washburn. He didn't get into the teamsters at that time, sir.
That deal fell through flat.
Senator McNamara. How did he get into the teamsters ?
Mr. Washburn. He got into the teamsters after I resigned, as I
understand it, and these locals that were involved in the suspension
or lifting of the charters that I made, were later manipulated as I
read in the papers now, and I don't have any evidence on that.
I understand, in accordance with the charts here, these locals that
were involved in my suspension were later involved in this transfer
of shops and members into the teamsters union, to manipulate the
vote in the joint council of teamsters.
Senator McNamara. If you will glance at the chart, there is an
indication in the left-hand column, local 649 apparently was a sort
of parent local of all of these others; is that the way you under-
stand it ?
Mr. Washburn. That is right.
Senator McNamara. And the red line transferring members from
649 to 651, did that include the transfer of Dio in that operation as
you understand it ?
Mr. Washburn. I wouldn't know that, sir.
Senator McNamara. That was later than your time ?
Mr. Washburn. I never knew, actually, except by newspaper arti-
cles as to what happened in that situation. I do not know whether
Dio actually became a member of the teamsters union or not and I
couldn't say that.
Senator McNamar.\. You do not know whether he is or not?
Mr. Washburn. No ; I have no information on that.
Senator McNamara. But this early conviction was before the time
that you had issued him a charter ?
Mr. Washburn. Oh, yes.
Mr. Kennedy, Just finishing up, irajnediately after you lifted the
charters, then you were overruled by your board, and then you told
us this morning of the conversation or the speech that Mr. Hoffa made
to the Michigan Federation of Labor ; is that right ?
Mr, Washburn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. It was early 1954, or the middle of 1954, in which
he made the speech about Johnny Dio's character, and that it all would
3718 IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD
be peaceful in New York now that Dio had his charters back ; is that
right?
Mr. Washburn. I can give you a newspaper clipping on that. That
is the best I can give you on that.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the sum and substance of what you testified ?
Mr. Washburn. Yes ; and I get my direct information on that from
Mr. Donohue, who was our regional director in the western Michigan
area, and was in attendance at that convention. He had some ex-
change of words with Mr. Hoffa at that time.
The Chairman. Do you have the newspaper clipping with you?
Mr. Washburn. I think that I do; yes, sir.
The Chairman. It will be filed as an exhibit for reference.
Mr. Washburn. It is not a newspaper clipping, and if I have it,
it is a photostat of it.
I am sorry, I don't have it. I can send it to you, though.
The Chairman. You may send it to us. I don't know whether it
has any value or not, but you may send it to us and we will examine it.
We will proceed.
Senator Kennedy. I was not here all morning or all of the time
this morning, but I understand that the witness testified, or at least
I was here for part of that, about Mr. Dio and about the connection
between Mr. Dio and Mr. HoflPa.
Now, I understand there was also some mention of Mr. Dubinsky.
Was Mr. Dubinsky opposed to Mr. Dio, from your knowledge, during
some of these years ?
Mr. Washburn. Was he opposed to Mr. Dio? Yes, he was. He
was moving heaven and earth for us to get him out of our union.
Senator Kennedy. Thank you.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions of this witness ?
Senator Goldwater. Just to comment, Mr. Chairman, that I think
the witness has been an excellent witness, and I hope that we have
more like him. From what you have said, I think we can sum up
that the situation we have been hearing has been caused by the Hoffa-
dominated racket-labor clique which is responsible for Johnny Dio.
Hoffa has been convicted twice as a labor racketeer, and Dio has been
convicted and Dorfman, a member of the Capone mob, has been deter-
mined to be an unfit person to be in labor, and Doria has been forced
out of the UAW-AFL, and Sam Berger has resigned from the Inter-
national Ladies' Garment Workers Union.
All of which leads me to believe that more and more the need is
appearing for legislation to correct this infiltration of racketeers into
unions. When a man like Hoffa can exert his influence in a union
to the extent that he can bring with him and keep with him men of
this caliber, I think the union movement is in a dangerous situation.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions?
The Chair wishes to thank you for your testimony. I have reason
to believe that there are many instances where people know as much
and possibly more than you, but they are not going to favor us with
what they know and what would be helpful.
I certainly personally commend you for withdrawing from a situa-
tion where you would have had to be a party to condoning the action
that was taken by your board. I think that you are to be commended
very highly for doing so. You no doubt did it at some personal finan-
IMPROPER ACTIVITrES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3719
cial sacrifice. I am sure that you love unionism and you would like
to see unionism advanced in this country, and the rights of the work-
ers protected and the benefits secured for them to which they are
entitled.
But I applaud you for disapproving of the methods of using gang-
sters and hoodlums and people like that to operate the unions or
handle the funds of working people who pay dues for the purpose of
having their rights protected.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Washburn. Thank you, sir. And if I might say, I certainly
do believe in organized labor, and any time I can help any legitimate
labor organization in the future I will do so.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr. K[ennedy. Mr. Theodore Ray, of New York City.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Ray. I do.
TESTIMONY OF THEODORE RAY
The Chairman. State your name and your place of residence and
jour business or occupation.
Mr. Ray. Theodore Ray, 218 Seventh Street, New York. Unem-
ployed at the present.
The Chairman. What is your past employment?
Mr. Ray. I can't hear you.
The Chairman. What is your past employment ?
Mr. Ray. Businessman in the trucking business.
The Chairman. Do you own trucks and operate trucks ?
Mr. Ray. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you discussed with members of the staff your
testimony, or you know or you are familiar with the inquiry that
will likely be made of you ?
Mr. Ray. I stand on my rights under the Constitution, of the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. I do not think it would tend to incriminate you to
talk to a member of this staff. If that is what you propose to do, to
take the fifth amendment, we might just as well get down to business.
Proceed to ask him questions, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. "VYlien we first subpenaed Mr. Ray, and our investi-
gator went up to hand him the subpena, IVIr. Chairman, he denied that
he was Teddy Ray, and he said that he was Mike Ray. Is that not
correct ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds of incriminating my-
self.
The Chairman. I did not understand you.
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds that it will incriminate
me.
The Chairman. You might incriminate yourself?
Mr. Ray. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
3720 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Just a little bit of your background, Mr. Ray, As
I understand it, you are also known as Samuel Arenson. Is that an-
other name that you use?
Mr. Eat. I decline to answer on the grounds of incrimination.
Mr. Kennedy. And you are also known bv the nickname of
"Skinny."
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds of incrimination.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you had the name "Skinny," Mr.
Kay? ' ....
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds of incrimination.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ray at the present time is under
indictment in connection with the acid blinding of Victor Riesel, and
we do not intend to go into that at the present time.
"Wlien the FBI was looking for him, they described him as "apt to
be armed and extremely dangerous." We don't expect to pursue that,
but Mr. Ray was on the original charter of local 102 when it was
granted and he also had some business dealings with Mr. Dio since,
and once in a dress company, and he was also one of the original offi-
cers of Equitable Research Co., which was a management-labor con-
sulting firm operating out of New York City.
I would like to ask you, Mr. Ray, about how you happened to be an
applicant on the original charter for local 102?
Mr. Rx\Y. I decline to answer on the gTounds of incrimination. I
don't want to incriminate myself.
The Chairman. Don't you think that kind of incriminates you, the
kind of answer that you are giving? You are so sure about wanting
not to incriminate yourself.
The Chair is reminded that he forgot to ask you whether you waive
counsel.
Do you ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. Very good.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee a little of your back-
ground before you applied for this charter for local 102 ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer. The same grounds, it will incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us what your connection has been
with Mr. Dio ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he approach 5^011 about going on this charter?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. I want to present to you here an exhibit of the
testimony which is a photostatic copy of the original application for
charter for local 102'. I see a name there, Theodore Ray.
Will you look at it, please, sir. Is that your name?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground it would incriminate
me.
The Chairman. Is that your handwriting ?
Mr. Ray. Again on the fifth amendment, I decline to answer on
gi'ound of incrimination.
The Chairman. Are you ashamed of it?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds I stated.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3721
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Ray, we understand, also, that you were in
business with Mr. Dio in the Acme Dress Co.; is that correct?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
Mr. IvENNEDY. "Was that a nonunion shop that you and Mr. Dio
were operating?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds of incrimination.
The Chairman. Do you honestly believe that if you answered
these questions truthfully, that a truthful answer might tend to in-
criminate you ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds of incrimination.
The Chairman. The Chair orders and directs )"ou to answer the
question.
Mr. Ray. I stand on the fifth amendment, and I decline to answer
on the ground of incrimination.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, after local 102 was set up, there
was also established local 649, which as we described yesterday was
the parent union of the operations in New York City by Mr. Johnny
Dioguardi. We have an organization registration form which is filed
with the Department of Labor, for local 649 of the UAW-AFL, and
on there it shows Theodore Ray as vice president of that local.
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground it would incriminate
me.
The Chairman. You don't object to my answering, do you? The
question was addressed to me.
Mr. Counsel, this local 649 is what you termed yesterday the parent
local of the paper locals; is that correct?
Mr. Kennedy. It is the parent local. It is the first local after 102
that was established, and it was established on March 22, 1952, Mr.
Chairman, and it was the headquarters of Mr. Johnny Dioguardi and
his operations in New York City when he was district director.
From 649 Mr. Joseph Curcio, and Mr. Davidoff, and Sidney Hodes,
and Abe Brier came down into the paper locals, the so-called teamster
paper locals, Mr. Chairman.
This is the document that is filed with the Labor Department re-
garding the officers of that union.
The Chairman. On this document which is official in the Labor
Department, it is entitled, "Labor Organization Registration Form
Under Public Law 101, 80th Congress."
In reporting who were the officers of local 649, United Automobile
Workers of America, AFL, it is reported in here that Johnny Dio-
guardi is president and he was elected on March 25, 1952. Is that
correct, and was he president of this organization ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
The Chairman. Right under his name appears yours, as vice presi-
dent, elected at the same time. Do you deny that?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
Senator Curtis. When were you born ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
Senator Curtis. What schools, if any, did you attend ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
Senator Curtis. Do you have any friends in the labor movement ?
Mr. Rat. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
3722 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Do you know Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever seen Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever discussed any business, labor busi-
ness or otherwise with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever had any conversations with Mr.
Hoffa that would not incriminate you ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds of incrimination.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever been in any meetings with Mr.
Hoffa, the facts concerning which would not incriminate you ?
Senator Kennedy. I must raise some question about this. I do not
know whether it is going to be deferred that this witness has a con-
nection with Mr. Hoffa, but this witness is, from all I gather, a repre-
hensible citizen. Because he has taken the fifth amendment as part
of his policy, which is part of his constitutional right, I think that
we should be careful about asking him questions on which he will
take the fifth amendment, using people's names which may give an
impression which may or may not be accurate.
I know the Senator is within his rights, but I do think as a matter
of committee policy, unless there has been clear evidence linking him
to people, we should not, because a witness takes the fifth amendment,
permit a conclusion to be drawn that there is necessarily a connection
between the two people.
The Chairman. Well, the Chair would say this : If anyone has an
idea that possibly there is a connection, he has a right to ask the
witness about it. In this instance, which I am about to ask, there
appears to be an official connection where Johnny Dioguardi was
president and Theodore Ray a vice president of local 649.
I want to ask you if you know Mr. Dioguardi.
Mr. Ray. Under my constitutional rights, I decline to answer on
the ground of incrimination.
The Chairman. Have you every worked for him ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
The Chairman. Have you served as a bodyguard for him?
Mr. Ray. I am standing on my rights, constitutional rights, not to
answer on the ground of incrimination.
The Chairman. Are you in his employ now ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
The Chairman. Do you work for any labor organization?
Mr. Ray. I am standing on my constitutional rights, and decline
to answer.
The Chairman. Do you have any official position with any labor
organization now?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
The Chairman. Have you had any in the past ?
Mr. Ray. I am standing on my constitutional rights and I decline
to answer.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman, before we finish with this wit-
ness I just want to say, that inasmuch as Senator Ives has rightly
pointed out on numerous occasions that the great majority of labor
IMPROPER ACnVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3723
leaders are not to be classified in the same breath with some of those
that have appeared before us here, I think it is proper that I make
a similar disclaimer about the dress business.
I have been closely connected with this business most of my life,
and I want to assure the American people that the likes of Johnny
Dio and Ted Ray do not represent the dress business of New York
nor of any other city in America.
In fact I am rather ashamed that people like this would hide be-
hind the skirts of America.
The Chairman. All right. Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. In addition to the information that we had of the
connection originally of Mr. Ray with local 102, and Mr. Johnny Dio-
guardi, and local 649 and Johnny Dioguardi, and the Acme Dress
Co., we also had information that Mr. Ray was one of the first offi-
cers for the Equitable Research Co., which is the labor-management
firm, and I was wondering if you could tell us anything about how
that was formed, Mr. Ray.
Mr. Ray. I am standing on my constitutional rights, and decline
to answer on the ground of incrimination.
Mr. Kennedy. In that concern, you and Mr. Dioguardi were ad-
vising employers as to their labor problems ; is that right ?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the grounds of incrimination.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you able to assure any employers that they
would not have any difficulties with any labor unions ?
Mr. Ray. I am standing on my constitutional rights. I decline to
answer on the ground of incrimination.
Mr. Kennedy, We understand, also, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Ray
drives a car and was the driver for Mr. Dioguardi. Is that correct?
Mr. Ray. I decline to answer on the ground of incrimination.
The Chairman. You may stand aside for the present.
Senator Kennedy. I just want to ask Mr. Ray a question.
As I understand it, you were indicted for having driven the car
which was used at the time of the throwing of the acid in Mr. Riesel's
eyes, but that because of the pressure put on the witnesses, the mat-
ter was dismissed.
Mr. Kennedy. It has not been dismissed. It has been postponed.
They went to trial, and the witnesses that were to testify concerning
the matter, and involving Mr. Ray and Mr. Dioguardi, refused to
testify, as they had testified before the grand jury, and the case was
postponed by the United States attorney in New "^ York City. Those
witnesses were given sentences for contempt of court when they re-
fused to testify, but the trial had to be postponed because of that.
Senator Kennedy. He was indicted for driving the car ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, after the acid was thrown in Mr. Riesel's eyes.
Senator Kennedy. Thank you.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
The witness will stand aside, and you will remain under subpena,
and you will be dismissed at the pleasure of the committee.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Topazio.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so held you God ?
Mr. ToPAzio. I do.
3724 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE L.\BOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OP ANTHONY TOPAZIO, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, JOHN N. ROMANO
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. TopAzio. Anthony Topazio.
The Chairman. ^"VHiere do you live ?
Mr. ToPAzio. 33 Mardino Avenue, Yonkers, N. Y.
The Chairman. What is your business or occupation ?
Mr. TopAzio. Truckdriver.
The Chairman. Mr. Topazio, have you discussed with members
of the committee staff, the information that you may have to give
to the committee.
Mr. Romano. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to make a
statement.
The Chairman. Just one moment. If you will let me make the
record, just one second.
First of all, I will ask you this : It appears that you have an attorney
present. You have counsel to represent you, have you ?
Mr. ToPAzio. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now you may identify yourself for the record.
Mr. Romano. John N, Romano, 45 South Broadway, Yonkers, N. Y.
The Chairman. You are a member of the New York bar?
Mr. Romano. Yes ; a member of the New York State bar.
A meeting was held approximately, I believe it is 2 weeks ago, with
Mr. Dunne, from your committee.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon ?
Mr, Romano. A meeting was held between Mr. Topazio and a Mr.
Dunne in which I represented Mr. Topazio, at Foley Square, New
York City.
At that time, I asked Mr. Dunne certain questions as to procedure.
He handed me a booklet here, which I read very thoroughly.
The Chairman. You have a copy of the rules of the committee?
Mr. Romano. That is correct. Now, I wonder if I may ask one
question at this time. I realize it is unusual and it is the first time
I have ever been to Washington and I feel that I would like to ask a
question.
The Chairman. You may ask a question.
Mr. Romano. On the procedure, you are to put questions to my
client and may I at this time object directly to the Chair or must I
first have my client speak through me to the Chair as to objections ?
The Chairman. The procedure is that your client at any time a
question is asked, may confer with you as to whether he should answer
the question, as to whether you think the question is pertinent or not,
and whether he should answer it.
If you have any doubt about it, then you may address the Chair
or you may give him such advice as you think proper, representing
him.
But you are at liberty to address the Chair at any time that you
feel that you wish to interpose objections to questions and the Chair
will promptly rule on it.
Mr. Romano. The first request and the first application I make
to the chairman here is in accordance with paragraph 8, Rules of
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES INT THE LABOR FIELD 3725
Procedure, as to cameras and TV. If possible, I would appreciate
that they be turned away from my client.
The Chairman. I can answer that very promptly. We usually
grant it where a witness is willing to testify and does testify. If it
is his purpose to take the fifth amendment, then it will not be granted.
Lights cannot bother anyone very much if all they intend to say is,
"I take the fifth amendment." In that case, I do not think there is
much of a distraction to them.
Mr. Romano. I take exception to it and I feel it is a violation of the
constitutional rights, article I, and article IV.
The Chairman. You n^iy take exception.
Mr. Romano. Strike that out. It is the first amendment and the
fourth amendment.
This is the second request I make of the chairman : At the termina-
tion of this hearing and examination of my client, assuming that my
client were to invoke the fifth amendment, will the Chair recite a
basic rule of law that the invocation of this privilege is not to be
construed in any manner against him ?
The Chairman. The Chair will let the public draw any inference
it cares to from any statement that your client may make from his
invoking of the fifth amendment.
He is not on trial and we are here to get information. He is
not charged with any crime so far as this committee is concerned, and
I do not know whether he is anywhere else.
But as to any inference, any statement I would make would not
contribute one thing either way. He is not charged with guilt or a
crime at this time, not by this committee at least, and we simply are
seeking information.
If he takes the fifth amendment, anything I would say could not
influence what someone else might think.
Mr. RoarANo. But, sir, I will say in seeking the information, my
client has certain constitutional rights which I believe you as chairman
must recognize. Now, keeping that in mind, I certainly feel that to
inform the American public of that privilege and that no aspersions
in any manner, shape, or form
The Chairman. The Chair declines to grant the request. I am not
going to tell the American public that the}^ cannot draw such infer-
ences as they may and will from his demeanor on the stand, and from
whatever he ma}^ say or refuse to say.
I will submit it to the committee and I should have done that, I
assume.
Senator Curtis. That is a correct statement.
The Chairman. The committee sustains the Chair.
All right, Mr. Kennedy, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, as I stated before, the union that was
the parent union of the operations of JVIr. Dioguardi in New York City
was local 649. We have information that Mr. Topazio was secretary-
treasurer of local 649 and had a close personal relationship with Mr.
Johnny Dioguardi.
I would like to ask him first about his histoiy in the labor-union
movement and when you first joined a labor union.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
3726 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. ToPAzio. I respectfully refrain from answering the question in
accordance with the rights established, guaranteed me under the fifth
amendment of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Kennedy. I am wondering, specifically, how you came to be
secretary-treasurer of local 649, Mr. Topazio.
Mr. Topazio. Again I respectfully refrain from answering the ques-
tion in accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me under
the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Johnny Dioguardi suggest you for that
position ?
Mr. Topazio. I respectfully refrain from answering the question in
accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me under the
fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.
Mr, Kennedy. Now, Mr. Chairman, our information is that while
secretary-treasurer of local 649, Mr. Topazio and a Mr. Cohen were
placed as trustees over another local of the UAW, namely, local 136.
It was then headed by a man by the name of Lou Lasky. They were
given that position as trustees by Mr. Johnny Dioguardi; is that
correct ?
Mr. Topazio. Again I respectfully refrain from answering the
question in accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me
under the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Kennedy. What we understand is that Mr. Lasky opposed the
trusteeship of Mr. Dioguardi, which he sought to impose upon him,
with Mr. Topazio and Mr. Cohen and he was assisted in this by the
fact that just prior to the time that Mr. Cohen and Mr. Topazio came
in to take over their positions, they were picked up on extortion; is
that right?
Mr. Topazio. I respectfully refrain from answering the question
in accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me under
the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Kennedy. And that you and Mr. Cohen as officials in 649,
sought to extort $10,000 from the LTniversal Bulb Corp; is that right?
Mr. Romano. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, before my client replies
to that, I think that it is a matter of public record that my client had
pleaded guilty to a charge of attempted extortion in the city of New
York and he has paid his price.
I don't think going into that, and I humbly submit this for your
examination, would assist this committee in any way.
The Chairman. Let me see just a moment. I think it is already
a part of the record.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the one over here. He is the top of the list
in July 1952.
The Chairman. Well, it is a matter of record and I assume that
would not incriminate him to answer it.
I will ask the question. Are you the same person who was convicted
for extortion in July of 1952?
Mr. Romano. We have already conceded that, and it is a matter
of public record.
The Chairman. That is conceded. Proceed.
Mr. Romano. At this time, I notice again, for your information,
and here I am only concerned, or my main concern is my client's rights,
and I notice there is a chart on which his name is placed first on.
At this time, I object to that chart.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3727
The Chairman. The objection is overruled, and the chart is al-
ready admitted in evidence.
Proceed.
Mr. Ej:nnedy. Mr. Chairman, the importance of Mr. Topazio once
again, is that he was one of the first officers and officials of the labor
union movement that was started by Johnny Dioguardi, in New York
City.
Immediately, within a short time after becoming an official in the
union, he and Mr. Cohen were picked up on extortion. It is clear
from the record how close they were to Johnny Dioguardi by the
fact that Johnny Dioguardi attempted to make them trustees over
another local, Local 136 of the UAW.
The Chairman. Let me ask if that followed their conviction for
extortion ?
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat happened, Mr. Chairman, is that Mr. Dio-
guardi appointed Mr. Topazio and Mr. Cohen as trustees of local 136.
This was opposed by Lasky of 136 and prior to the time that it could
be decided, Mr. Topazio and Mr. Cohen were picked up on extortion.
Now, I have just the facts here and I think, once again, the facts
in this case indicate the type of operation that can exist if people of
the wrong type gain control of some of these locals.
I would like to point out that even after this, Mr. Dioguardi's em-
pire or group of unions expanded in NeAv York City and then, of
course, he had the important position, and his people had the impor-
tant position in the teamster fight at the end of 1955 and early 1956.
The Chairman. Ask the witness any questions you wish.
Mr. Kennedy. It states from the indictment that the facts in this
case establish
Mr. Romano. Excuse me at this point. Counsel, we have gone over
this, and I have already said before that we have conceded tliat, and
for what purpose at this time, sir, may I say, can this question serve
any purpose?
The Chairman. We will ask the questions so that the public may
know some of the information we are seeking.
We have before us witnesses who have that information. Now, if
they want to take the fifth amendment, that is their privilege. But
we think that the laboring people of this country, who are paying
their dues for the purpose of or in the hope that they will be bene-
fited by the labor organization to which they belong, are entitled to
have information about how their union is operated.
We feel that the Congress is entitled to have information as to
how unions are operated today, particularly some of them, so that if
they are not operated properly and lawfully or operated by gangsters
and thugs, the Congress might have information upon which to pass
legislation.
Mr. Romano. Mr. Chairman, I myself, and my client are in com-
plete agreement with that statement. My client has paid liis price,
and he has left New York City, and he has not returned.
Now, I feel to labor on a question of whether or not this man has
been guilty of a particular crime which is conceded, and he serves
time, I feel personally will only injure whatever life he has left after
these hearings.
The Chairman. Well, let me ask him a question or two. Are you
now a member of any labor organization ?
3728 IMPROPER ACTTVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. KoMANO. Will you restate that, please?
The Chairman. I ask your client, the witness, if he is now a mem-
ber of any labor organization.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. ToPAZio. I respectfully refrain from answering the question
in accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me mider
the fifth amendment of the Bill of Eights.
The Chairman. Are you now employed by an}^ labor organization?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. ToPAzio. I respectfully refrain from answering the question
in accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me under
the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.
The Chairman. Are you now or have you been since your convic-
tion an officer in any labor organization ?
Mr. Romano. Mr. Chairman, again I have a question to ask. I am
concerned here with a waiver, and that is one of tlie principal reasons
that this particular amendment is being invoked here now. Some of
the questions are probably extraneous to the hearing here, but we
must — and it is my opinion we must — invoke this.
The Chairman. You mean pertinent to the hearing here?
jMr. Romano. That is correct, sir. Well, some are pertinent and
some are not, sir. But we must invoke it not to be considered or not
to have my client waive his privilege. That is the only reason. I
want to point that out to you, sir.
The Chairman. I understand your position entirely. The only
purpose in now asking the question is we think the laboring people,
again, those who work and who pay their dues, are entitled to know
the character of the people and some of the operations of the heads
of the unions or those employed by the unions. For that reason, I am
asking these questions.
Mr. Romano. Sir, you are entitled to an answer, and I put this to
your counsel, Mr. Duiine. I indicated to him if the committee, since
the statute does not provide for any immunity, keeping that in mind
there is a possibility here of also being prosecuted
(At this point, Senator McNamara withdrew from the hearing
room.)
The Chairman. "\^niat I am asking now is, Does he now have any
position witli the union or has he had since the time of his indictment?
If so, I want to know who is res]:)onsible for his having that position.
(Tlie witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. TopvzTo. T respectfully refrain from answering the question
in accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me under
the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.
The Citair:\lan. Any other questions ?
Mr. I\JENNEDY. Our information is that he is very active in the
labor movement at the present time, that he is connected with local
500, an independent teamster local in Westchester County.
Is that correct, j\Ir. Topazio?
Mr. Topazio. I respectfully refrain from ansAvei-ing the question
in accoi'dance with the rights established and guaranteed me under
the fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3729
Mr. Kennedy. This is local 500, an independent teamster local, a
rnmp group from local 445 of the teamsters union. They have had
disputes in Westchester County
Mr. Romano. jNIr. C'hairman, I am going to object to the term
"rump." I happen to rei^resent some of the
The Chairman. I do not know just what the term means. Wlien
we split oft' down in Arkansas from the Democratic Central Com-
mittee, when it nominates somebody and we think they are exceeding
their authority', we have what we call a rump convention. I do not
know what it means, but we raise the roof, anyhow.
Mr. Komano. This group of 500 are just men who were thoroughly
disgusted Avith the men who were running 445.
The (/iiAiRMAN. AVe will use any other term that you wish to use
to describe it.
Mr. Romano. I call them blood-and-guts Americans. They know
what tliey want, these men.
The Chairman. Let us talk about these blood-and-guts Americans,
then, a little, 1 believe they will answer questions.
Mr. Ro^kfANO. Tlie ]:)resident of it, Mr. Cavanaugh, just resigned, and
I understand he did under pressure from the joint council.
The Chairman. You are talking about 445 ?
Mr. Romano. Local 500, sir, independent teamsters. In fact, the
tires to my car have been slashed on two separate occasions because
1 had, let us say, the temerity to represent people who don't want to
be affiliated with an international. I pointed that out to Mr. Dunne.
We went through this down in Foley Square.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Stickels and Mr. Masielo are not connected with
500, are they ?
Mr. Romano. Sir, every man who is connected w'ith 500 has no kind
of record at all, I can honestly say the thing has been blown to bits
because of the duress used by the members of 445, the officials right
now.
Mr. Kenni:dy. Can 1 get an answer to the question of whether
Mr. Stickels or Mr. Masielo are in any way connected with local 500?
Mr. Romano. Is that directed to me, sir?
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to get the answer to the question. Will
he tell me? He is under oath.
Mr. RojMANo. You can appreciate my position on the waiver, sir.
I can tell you, but it would be violating a principle which is essential
to this country, tlie privilege between client and lawyer.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. Ask the client. I mean, ask the witness and then
we will jjroceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Are Mr. Stickels and Mr. Masielo connected in any
way Avith local 500 ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. ToPAzio. I respectfully refrain from answering the question in
accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me under the
fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.^
Senator Ives. May I butt in here just a minute, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. I cannot help thinking that your reluctance to be
honest about this and give us the lowdown puts the whole thing in
89330— 57— pt. 10 10
3730 IMPROPER ACTIVrriES IN THE LABOR FIELD
great doubt. I come from New York State myself, as you probably
know. I know something about Westchester. Why can you not be
frank, if you are on the level?
Mr. Romano. May I answer you, Senator ?
Senator Ives. No ; I am asking your client.
Mr. Romano. I am representing him, sir.
Senator I\tes. I do not care who you are representing. Can't he
talk ? He is a New Yorker and so am I, It is liigh time he learned
to talk a little bit for himself.
I mean business.
I do not want your testimony ; I want your client's testimony.
The Chairman. The witness may answer the question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Topazio. If in talking to you, Senator, I waive my rights, I
can't answer.
Senator Ives. Well, I thank you. Go ahead.
Mr. ToPAzio. Am I waiving my rights. Senator?
Senator Ives. You cannot talk to me ?
Mr. Topazio. Yes, if I waive my rights.
The Chairman, "Wliat the witness is saying, as I understand him,
is if he answers your question he waives his rights then to invoke the
fifth amendment.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Romano. That is correct, sir.
Senator Ives. I cannot for the life of me understand, as one New
Yorker to another, why he cannot be on the level.
Mr. Romano. Sir, if I may. Senator, I turned to the authorities in
giving my client advice, and I have turned to the law and the Consti-
tution, the common law. I honestly feel we should give it some respect
here.
Senator Ives. Can you not give honesty a little respect here, too?
Mr. Romano. We are attempting to give honesty respect.
Senator Ives. You are ducking all around the yard, as far as I
can see.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I might say Mr. Stickels and Mr.
Masielo were the officials of local 445; and they were indicted and
convicted for extortion, I believe, of somewhere around $50,000.
They served their time in prison and, as I understand it, they are out
now.
That is why there are two groups in New York, in Westchester
County: local 500 that is independent, and local 445 which is part
of the teamsters, and which officers took over after Stickels and
Masielo left.
That is why I would be interested in finding out whether Stickels
and Masielo are noAV connected with your independent local 500.
(^'he witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Topazio. I respectfully refrain from answering the question in
accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me under the
fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Are there any otlier questions?
I would like to ask, before the witness is excused, if we have any
information, or any documentation or information, that this witness,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3731
since his conviction for extortion, has been employed by, is a member
of, or an official in, any labor organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, our information is that he is an active
participant in local 500 of the teamsters union, which is not a rump
group but is independent.
Mr. Romano. Mr. Chairman, I want to call your attention to this
fact. The president of 500, independent, I believe, has transmitted his
resignation to the National Labor Relations Board, and I understand
that as a result of the economic pressure and other pressures put on by
the teamsters, and I understand further that they sent officials out in
the field, local 500 is no more in existence. It was just one of those
things. They just couldn't stand up to it.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Goldwater?
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Topazio, you were convicted of extortion
back in 1952. Were you given any term in connection with that ?
Let him answer, please.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Did you understand the question ?
Mr. Romano. I don't believe I understood it, sir. He doesn't un-
derstand it.
Senator Goldwater. I will try to repeat it, Mr. Topazio. You were
convicted of extortion back in 1952. Was there any term connected
with that? Did you serve a term in jail?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Topazio. Yes, sir. I did serve time.
Senator Goldwater. You did serve your time. Then you served
the sentence for that particular crime.
Are you under indictment for anything else at the present time?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Topazio. No.
Senator Goldwater. You are not under indictment. You are in no
trouble, are you, with the law?
Mr. Topazio. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Why are you taking the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Romano. Sir —
Senator Goldwater. Wait a moment. I am not talking to you.
"VVliy are you taking the fifth amendment ?
I will talk to you sometime else
Mr. Topazio. On advice of counsel, sir
Senator Goldwater. That is a very strange situation. Usually
when a person takes the fifth amendment, we feel that he certainly
has the right to because he is under indictment or what he might tell
us would tend to incriminate him. But here is an American citizen
who, in the eyes of the law, and in the eyes of some citizens, at least,
has nothing against him, and yet — just a moment — and yet he comes
down here and takes the fifth amendment. It is a rather unusual
procedure.
I will get to you.
If you want to talk, I will ask you why you give the client this
kind of advice.
Mr. Romano. Sir, you might say he is under investigation. As I
understand it, some officials from the Government have been to see
him.
3732 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES m THE LABOR FIELD
Is that correct ?
Mr. ToPAzio. Yes.
Mr. Romano. That is the reason wliy. There is no indictment
but there is still the possibility that somethinor might come out of these
other investigations.
Senator Goi.dwater. There is that possibility, I guess, hanging
over any American citizen.
Mr. R():\rAX(). I will oiily ask this question: How many times does
an official of the United States Government knock on anybody's door'^
Only when there is suspicion of a crime being committed or the pos-
sibility of a crime.
Senator GoLmvATKR. If you keej) up with my speeches, you will find
it is becoming increasingly so.
In this case, it seems unusual to me, Mr. Chairman, to have the fifth
amendment taken, particulai'ly when he is not incriminating himself.
We are only seeking infoiniation which will help us in creating legisla-
tioFi. facts we liave to have. I cannot understand his unwillingness
to cooperate.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Senator Curtis ?
Senator Curtis. I would like to ask the witness this question ; Wlien
was the last that yon were connected with local 649, UAW-AFL, or
its successor in name?
Mr. Topazio. I respectfully refrain from answering the question
in accordance with the rights established and guaranteed me under the
fifth amendment of the Bill of Rights, sir.
Senator Curtis. I wonder if the staff could furnish this information.
Wlien Avas the witness last connected with local 649, UAW-AFL,
or its successor by a different name ?
Mr. Kennedy. I think we would have to ask him for that infor-
mation.
Senator Curtis. He declines to answer.
Mr. Kennedy. I believe when he was convicted, we know officially
he ended his connection. However, like Johnnj- Dio was supposed to
end his connection with the UAW in 1954, he continued in 1955. So
I think he would be the best source of information.
Senator Curits. I know he is the best source.
Mr. Kennedy. We wouldn't know, except officially it endexl when
he went to iail.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Senator Goi.dwater. Mr. Topazio. trying to reason why you are
raking the fifth amendment, are you afraid of Johnny Dio?
Mr. Topazio. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Has he threatened you ?
Mr. Topazio. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Has anybody else threatened you in connec-
tion with the testimony that you might give here ?
Mr. Topazio. No, sir.
Senator GoLDW^VTER. Are you afraid of yourself?
Mr. Roiviano. Sir, as I said before to the committee, he has rights
under the Constitution. The same document that produced the Con-
gress and the Senate also produced human rights. That is all the
man is doing. He is taking advantage of one of the basic rights.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3733
Senator Goi.dwater. I have my rights, too, I might remind you,
and I am just trying to find out why lie is taking that right. I am
not going to find out. I am not tliat optimistic.
The Chairman. Are tliere any other questions ?
Some members of the committee have raised a question about your
being in contempt. I am going to weigh that. I will not make any
annoancement about it at the present.
You may stand aside for the present.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. Before you do that, I would like to put into the
record an article that appeared in this morning's press entitled "Pres-
sures Cited in the Hotfa Trial." I think it ought to be placed in our
record.
I would like to ask counsel to comment on any information we may
have on the subject. He may have seen the article.
The Chapman. The Chair would feel that this may be made an
exhibit for reference. I do not think we will print it in this record.
It is not pertinent in tliis particidar hearing.
Senator Ives. Tliat is all right.
The Chairman. If it is agreeable, I will make this article that
appeared in the Washington Post of Thursday, August 1, 1957, en-
titled "Pressures Cited in IIofFa Trial,*' an exhibit for reference to
this hearing.
I may say that this exhibit refers to expenses of Joe Louis having
been paid, his expenses liaving been paid by Mr. Iloffa to get him to
come down here and sliake hands with him, and call him his friend,
while Hoffa was on trial.
The committee has more information than that.
In the course of developments, and the staff may wisli to comment,
Mr. Hoffa did not pay his liotel bill. It was paid by union members,
out of their dues, apparently, by a union and not by Mr. Hoffa per-
sonally. So to that extent, the article would be ])ossibly misleading.
Is there any comment you wish to make, INIr. Counsel, on the basis
of information you have?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, several days ago we subpenaed the
hotel record of Mr. Joe Louis. He stayed at the Woodner Hotel.
The arrangements were originally made for him by Mr. Baker. Mr.
Baker is an organizer who operates out of St. Louis, who works for
Mr. Hoffa and for Mr. Harold Gibbons. He has been arrested a
number of times. He is an ex-fighter and has been arrested a num-
ber of times in connection with the throwing of stench bombs. He
made the reservation for Mr. Louis and also for certain of the other
teamsters' officials that came and stayed during the trial.
The bill for Mr. Louis while he stayed at the Woodner Hotel — he
stayed for 1 night — this bill was sent to Mr. Donald Peters, the Ware-
housemen's Union, Local 743, of the Teamsters, 220 South Ashland,
Chicago, HI.
The Chairman. Is there anything further with this witness?
You are pursuing that matter further; are you?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; we are.
Mr. Romano. I want to thank the chairman for the opportunity
to appear before you. Is it all right if I go back to Yonkers this
evening, sir?
3734 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. We will let you know after a little while. The
Chair will determine whether we have any further need for your
client.
Mr. Romano. Thank you.
The Chairman. I am sure everyone understood what I meant by
investigating or looking into these expenditures with reference to
the Hoffa trial. It occurs to me, and I think other members of the
committee will agree with the Chair, that that would not be a proper
expenditure for the dues-paying members to have to make. I do not
know how much other expense of the trial was being paid out of
union funds.
It would be a matter of some interest to this committee to find out,
I think.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Abe Goldberg.
(Members present at this point: Senators McClellan, Ives, Gold-
water, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Mr. Goldberg, will you be sworn, please, sir?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Goldberg. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ABEAEAM GOLDBERG
The Chapman. Will you state your name, your place of residence,
and your business or occupation, please, sir?
Mr. Goldberg. Abraham Goldberg, 1357 Fanshawe Street, Phil-
adelphia, Pa. I am employed in a kosher catering service in the city
of Philadelphia.
The Chairman. Mr. Goldberg, have you discussed your testimony
with members of the staff?
Mr. Goldberg. I did and I didn't.
The Chairman. You did and you did not? Did you discuss it
enough so that you have some general idea of the questions that may
be asked you?
Mr. Goldberg. Definitely not.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. You have a right to have counsel. Have you
arranged for counsel to be present while you testify ?
Mr. Goldberg. I have no counsel and I don't intend to have any.
The Chairman. Then you wai\^e counsel.
Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Just to clear up the record, we requested permission
to talk to you ; isn't that right, Mr. Goldberg?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you declined ?
ISIr. Goldberg. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Goldberg, you knew Mr. Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Your name, or a Mr. Abraham Goldberg's name,
appears on the first charter of local 102. Are you one and the same
Mr. Abraham Goldberg as the name that appears on here?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3735
Mr. Goldberg. That I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you stipulate that your name could be used on
the application for the charter for local 102 ?
Mr. Goldberg. No ; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that your name had been used ?
Mr. Goldberg. No ; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know Mr. Johnny Dioguardi in September
1950?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know Mr. Sam Zakman ?
Mr. Goldberg. At that time I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know Mr. Sam Berger ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know Mr. Anthony Doria at that time ?
Mr. Goldberg. I knew of him through the labor movement ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know him personally at that time?
Mr. Goldberg. Personally, I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any information that Mr. Berger was
going to use your name on the application for the charter for local
102 f
Mr. Goldberg. I don't know whether he used my name or not. I
don't know whether that was me or not.
Mr. Kennedy. I understand that. But did you have any informa-
tion, did he let you know or did anyone else tell you, that your name
was going to be used on the application for the charter for local 102 ?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to this, prior to September 1950, you had been
living in Philadelphia, Pa. ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you been associated with any labor unions prior
to September 1950?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What labor union ?
Mr. Goldberg. International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Local 929.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you an official in that union ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Kennedy, What position did you hold ?
Mr. Goldberg. I was secretary-treasurer and business manager.
Mr. Kennedy. During what period of time ?
Mr. Goldberg. From 1941 up until 1948.
Mr. Kennedy. And you left in 1948 ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you resign in 1948 ?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir ; I did not. I resigned in 1949.
Mr. Kennedy. You resigned in 1949?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What month in 1949 ?
Mr. Goldberg. I believe it was March 10, 1949.
Mr. Kennedy. What brought about _your_ resignation?
Mr. Goldberg. It was a voluntary resignation, based on the fact that
it was the outcrop of an indictment under the Hobbs Act for which
I was convicted.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the Hobbs Antiracketeering Act?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
3736 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Was the indictment that you had conspired with —
you, as a union official had conspired — with some individuals from
an employer association to keep independent fruit shippers out of
the city of Philadelphia ?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. AVliat was the indictment ?
Mr. Goldberg. The indictment was based on a conspiracy that we
conspired to fix and set selling hours in the Dock Street area in
Philadelphia.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it also in connection with the fact that you
kept certain independent trucks and certain independent fruit ship-
pers from moving their trucks in and out, and, thus, having that fruit
perish ?
Mr. Goldberg. That is not true.
Mr. Kennedy. That was not mentioned at all ?
Mr. Goldberg. In the original indictment, it may have been men-
tioned, but I said it is not true.
Mr. Kennedy. That never happened ?
Mr. Goldberg. That never happened.
Mr. Kennedy. But the original indictment contained that charge;
did it?
Mr. Goldberg. The original indictment contained the complete
charge under the Hobbs Act.
Mr. Kennedy. You were convicted during what period ? 1949 ?
Mr. Goldberg. I would say it was
Mr. Kennedy. I think the record shows March 11, 1949. Is that
correct.
Mr. Goldberg. If the record shows it, that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were sentenced to 3 months imprisonment,
is that right, which was suspended ?
Mr. Goldberg. Not to my recollection ; no, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that right?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir. To my recollection, it is not right.
Mr. Kennedy. You were sentenced to 3 months imprisonment and
fined $2,500, and the imprisonment was suspended and you were placed
on probation for 2 years. That probation was actually lifted October
20, 1950. Those are the facts that we have. See if you can correct
them.
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I won't dispute the facts.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you said that is not the way you remem-
ber it.
Mr. Goldberg. That is right. That is not the way I remember it.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you remember it ?
Mr. Goldberg. As I understand it, the sentence of the court was
that I could not hold office in my own local union for a period of 2
years, and for that period of 2 years I was to be under probation.
The Chairman. Was the fine paid ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The fine was paid.
This record that we have here shows that you were placed under
2 years of probation, and the fine was to be paid within 15 days of
the sentence. A condition of the probation was that you resign as
secretary-treasurer of local 929, and refrain from holding any office
in the union for 2 years from the date of the sentence.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 3737
That is what you said you remember?
Mr. Goldberg. That is correct, sir.
(At this point, Senator Gold water withdrew from the hearing
room.)
The Chairman. The probation was on that condition.
Mr. Goldberg. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Therefore, you did not have to serve your jail
sentence if you carried out the condition of the probation.
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I don't want to go into technicality, but there
was never any mention of any jail sentence.
The Chairman. You never heard that mentioned?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir.
The Chairman. The sentence, according to the official records, of
which we have a copy, starts off "Imprisonment for 3 months with a
fine of $2,500."
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I won't dispute the facts.
The Chairman. It is not important other than you said you did
not think this was correct. I am just reading from the record.
All right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You were not supposed to be in the labor-union
movement for a period of 2 years : is that true ? Is that the probation ?
Mr. Goldberg. No ; that is not true.
Mr. Kennedy. Just to hold office ?
Mr. Goldberg. In my own local union.
Mr. Kennedy. In your own local union?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequent] v, did vou meet Mr. Johnny Dioguardi
in the year 1950?
Mr. Goldberg. I would say subsequently I met him, but whether it
was 1950 or not, I just can't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you join local 102, UAW?
Mr. Goldberg. I was never a member of local 102.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you do any Avork for local 102 ?
Mr. Goldberg. If you are speaking about Local 102 Taxicab Drivers
Union ; yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Of the UAW-AFL?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You did do some work for them ?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You did some work for them in connection with the
taxicab drive?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That was up in New York City ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Who suggested that you come to New York City and
work for local 102?
Mr. Goldberg. I applied for that position on my own.
Mr. Kennedy. Through whom did you apply?
Mr. Goldberg. I applied to Mr. Anthony Doria, general secretary-
treasurer of the United Automobile Workers.
Mr. Kennedy. From whom did you hear that this position was
open and available?
Mr. Goldberg. It was general knowledge. I didn't have to hear it
from anyone, in particular, other than it was generally known that
3738 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
they were organizing or attempting to organize the cabdrivers in New
York.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear that from Mr. Sam Berger?
Mr. Goldberg. I could have ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Mr. Berger about it ?
Mr. Goldberg. I may have talked to Mr. Berger about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he, in turn, suggest that you contact Mr. Doria ?
Mr. Goldberg. Well, maybe during our conversations he did, I don't
know. I just actually don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. You contacted Mr. Doria and he recommended you
for this position with local 102 ?
Mr. Goldberg. As international representative ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. As international representative?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that based on your career with you labor union
down in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Goldberg. I would say it was based on my experience in organiz-
ing in the labor movement.
Mr. Kennedy. Your experiences in organizing ?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you went to work on this taxicab drive ?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And you remained with the taxicab drive for how
long a period ?
Mr. Goldberg. Until its termination.
Mr. Kennedy. Which was 1953 ?
Mr. Goldberg. If those are the facts, that is how long I remained
with them.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there then a movement to bring you and your
organization into the teamsters at that time ?
Mr. Goldberg. That I have no knowledge of.
Mr. Kennedy. How did the drive end ?
Mr. Goldberg. The drive ended — to the best of my knowledge, I was
told that the teamsters had claimed jurisdiction and that the jurisdic-
tion was going to be awarded to the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any discussion at that time about your
transferring over into the teamsters, and continue the drive ?
Mr. Goldberg. I took the position that I wanted no part of trans-
ferring over personally to the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason ?
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I honestly felt that there was no need or neces-
sity, that we had the cabdrivers organized, and that they would be best
served just where they were.
Mr. Kennedy. Meaning with the UAW^
Mr. Goldberg. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How many taxicab drivers did you have organized
by that time ?
Mr. Goldberg. I would say at tliat time there were two-hundred-
and-eighty-some elections and I guess out of those two-hundred-and-
some elections we must have covered over 10,000 cabdivers in the city
of New York.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they paying dues every month ?
They were paying dues, were they not ?
Mr. Goldberg. Some of them were, and some were not.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3739
Mr. Kennedy. Can you tell the committee who kept the books and
records on the moneys that were paid in ?
Mr. Goldberg. Well, they had a set of officers of their own, and, of
course, officers of that particular local they kept their own books and
their own records.
Mr. Kennedy. Who received the dues that were paid ?
Mr. Goldberg. The dues have to be received by local 102.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio was the manager of local 102 ?
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I would say the manager of local 102 was
headed by a Mr. Sam Smith, and a fellow by the name of Nemo. They
had their own president. They, in my opinion, managed their own
affairs.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Johnny Dio in that union ?
Mr. Goldberg. Mr. Dio, to the best of my knowledge, was director
of that area.
Mr. Kennedy. He was director of the area ?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And in his official position with that union, did he
not have the title of manager of the union ?
Mr. Goldberg. I assume that — that the operation of 102 was sub-
ject to Mr, Dio, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. How much in dues did you receive each month?
Mr. Goldberg. That I have no knowledge of.
Mr. Kennedy. You were responsible to whom, in your position?
Mr. Goldberg. I was responsible to the UAW.
Mr. Kennedy. The international?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you not keep them advised as to how much dues
you were receiving each month, how many members you had ?
Mr. Goldberg. That was not my job, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What were you keeping them, advised of?
Mr. Goldberg. As to the progress we were making in the organiza-
tion of the cabdrivers.
Mr. Kennedy. Wouldn't part of that be how many members you
had and how many members were paying dues ?
Mr. Goldberg. It would be as to how many members we had the
right to represent and organize, those who signed authorization cards
allowing us to represent them, and those elections that we won before
the State labor relations board.
Mr. Kennedy. It would not also be your responsibility to tell them
how much money you were receiving each month ?
Mr. Goldberg. I was not involved in any of the financial transac-
tions or matters of local 102.
Mr. Kennedy. After the drive ended, and the jurisdiction was taken
over by the teamsters, did you return to Philadelphia?
Mr. Goldberg. After a while, I did, yes ; I voluntarily left and re-
turned to Philadelphia.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you requested to stay on in any other local?
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I was told that I could stay on if I wanted to,
in the city of New York.
Mr. Kennedy. Who told you that?
Mr. Goldberg. Mr. Doria.
Mr. Kennedy. In what capacity ?
Mr. Goldberg. As an organizer.
3740 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And you turned that down ?
Mr. Goldberg. I turned it down.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason?
Mr. Goldberg. Well, more or less for personal reasons. First of
all, I was commuting between Philadelphia and New York, and I was
terribly disappointed that after making such a successful attempt, for
the first time in the history of our country, I would say, and in the
history of New York, the cabdrivers had an opportunity to become
organized, it was destroyed. And that completely disillusioned me,
and I went back to Philadelphia.
Mr. Kennedy. "\Aniat is your explanation as to why it was de-
stroyed ?
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I would have to guess, and T don't think guess-
ing is the proper thing to do before this committee.
Mr. Kennedy. I just don't want you to guess, but if you have some
conclusion that is based on fact, a fact that you know, then the. com-
mittee would be interested in that.
Mr. Goldberg. Would you repeat that question again, please?
Mr. Kennedy. I am trying to find out what your explanation is, or
what conclusion you reached, as to why the drive on the taxicabs that
was made by your union collapsed or ended.
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I personally believe that Mr. Hickey, in New
York, who was international representative of the teamsters, and Mr.
Meany, of the American Federation of Labor, thought that the full
organization of the cabdrivers in New York, which may have exceeded
oved 50,000 drivers, would place the UAW in too powerful a position
as one local unit in the city of Philadelphia, and for that reason, they
destroyed it.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hickey himself, if he wanted to get jurisdiction,
or wanted this drive, he could make it as an official of the teamsters;
could he not?
Mr. Goldberg. That was a matter of opinion.
Mr. Kennedy. You felt that the UAW-AFL could do it, while the
teamsters under Mr. Hickey could not?
Mr. Goldberg. We done it while nobody else could have done it.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you mean that you had 10,000 members ?
Mr. Goldberg. We done it. I say to you in all sincerity, we had the
cabdrivers in the city of New York organized. We won some 280
elections. We went before the State board and every other board.
We had a newspaper, of which I was editor, which had the full sup-
port of every cab driver in the city of New York. I say to you that
those individuals deprived the cabdrivers in the city of New York, for
the first time in their life, from representation under the banner of
organized labor, and they destroyed it.
Mr. Kennedy. TSTiat was Mr. Dio doing during this perio<l of time ?
Was he directing the drive on the taxicabs ?
Mr. Goldberg. I was directing the drive of the taxicabs, and I was
its organizer.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he taking instructions from you, or what ?
Mr. Goldberg. I will say to you from the time that I walked into
that office, I was not interfered with at all in the organization of the
cabdrivers in the city of New York.
Mr. Kennedy. What was he doing ? "V\^at was Mr. Dio's position
in all of this ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES LNT THE LABOR FIELD 3741
Mr. Goldberg. Mr. I)io was director, i-epresenting the UAW in New
York.
Mr. Kennedy. So he was also director of what your operation con-
sisted of, is that right ?
Mr. Goldberg. I kept him acquainted with our progress ; yes, I did.
Mr. Kennfj)y. Well, he was director of your operations as he was
director of the rest of the operations in New York City.
Mr. Goldberg. My understanding in coming to New York City was
that I was not to be interfered with. I came there with one specific
job and that was to organize the cabdrivers.
The Chairman. The question was: Was he your superior insofar
as authority in the union ?
He would be, I assume.
Mr. Goldberg. I would say I was answerable to Mr. Dio, but he
never interfered with me at any time.
The Chairman. You were answerable to him and, therefore, he was
your superior, although he gave you free rein and let you organize
and direct the organizing drive.
Mr. Goldberg. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You say that you came up there originally in ap-
proximately 1950 or maybe 1951, based on the requet of Mr. Anthony
Doria, of the international ?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
Sen tor Curtis. ^Yho did you say destroyed the organization of
taxicab drivers ?
Mr. Goldberg. I will repeat again. In my opinion, the destruction,
the opportunities taken away from the cabdrivers in my personal
opinion, was by Mr. Meany of the American Federation of Labor and
Mr. Tom Hickey of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters,
Senator Curtis. I do not mean to argue with you, but I would like
this information: A^Hiy was it to their advantage to pursue such a
course ?
Mr. Goldberg. I could only answer that this way, sir, that the
obvious was very evident, because after the jurisdiction was trans-
ferred, there was no future organization of the cabdrivers any more
and no more attempt was made to organize them.
Senator Curtis. What did jNIr. Hickey and Mr. Meany gain by
that?
Mr. Goldberg. That is anybody's guess and I am not in a position
to gueas.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. What happened to the union that was organized?
You had it organized. Was it transferred over to the teamsters?
Mr. Goldberg. I was given to understand that the certifications
from the State labor relations board for the elections and everything
else, materials and what have you, were transferred over to Mr. Tom
Hickey of the teamsters union.
Tlie CHAiR]vrAN. iVnd, thereafter, nothing was done?
Mr. Goldberg. And thereafter, nothing.
The Chairman. What happened to those that had already been
organized ?
Mr. Goldberg. That I don't know, sir.
3742 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. In other words, you had 10,000 of them organized ;
they were in some kind of an organization. If the teamsters took it
over, they took over, it would seem, some sort of organization.
I wonder if they abandoned them. They might not have con-
tinued a drive, but they had a union; they had an organization of
cabdrivers. Did they dissolve it and quit collecting dues, or what
happened to those?
Mr. Goldberg. Sir, I don't know. I left New York and washed
my hands of it.
The Chairman, You do not know ?
Mr. Goldberg. That I don't know.
Senator Ives. You do know this, do you not, that there is no cab--
drivers' union in New York today?
Mr. Goldberg. To the best of my knowledge, you are right, sir,
there is not.
Mr. Kennedy. I might say, Mr. Goldberg, as director of organiza-
tion, perhaps j'^ou know exact figures, the figures we have received as
to the number of taxicab drivers that were organized is not nearly
as high as yours, or the number of elections that were won.
At the same time that you were directing organizational work for
the taxicab drivers in New York City, did you have a local of your
own?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you apply for a local to the UAW in Phil-
adelphia ?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir ; I did not at that time, no, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a time in 1951 that you applied for a
charter in Philadelphia?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir before I came on to New York.
Mr. Kennedy. Before you came to New York ?
Mr. Goldberg. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you receive that charter?
Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that charter granted through Mr. Johnny
Dioguardi in New York City?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir, it was not.
Mr. Kennedy. That local charter was for what number?
Mr. Goldberg. Offhand I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. 138, Philadelphia?
Mr. Goldberg. I believe you are right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did it ever get any members?
Mr. Goldberg. I did not get enough for us to continue and so the
thing was disbanded completely.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the local vote in the international elections?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir, it did not.
Mr. Kennedy. It did not. That was local 138.
Are you familiar with local 225?
Mr. Goldberg. No, I am not.
Mr. Kennedy. That was also a UAW-AFL charter in Philadel-
phia?
Mr. Goldberg. That you will have to refresh my memory on.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not remember that at all? It succeeded
local 138.
Mr. Goldberg. If it succeeded 138, 1 know nothing about it.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3743
Tlie Chairman. To refresh your memory, I will ask you if you
did not receive your charter in Philadelphia through Mr. Dioguardi ?
Mr. Goldberg. I may have been forwarded a charter from Mr. Dio-
guardi. I did not get it through Mr. Dioguardi.
I don't want to stand on technicalities, but the charter came to me
from the international union.
The Chairman. I am sure it comes from the international union.
The charter was issued in the name of the international union. But
my information is that it was secured, through Mr. Dioguardi, actual-
ly secured.
Mr. Goldberg. As I understood, as I was subsequently given to
understand, as director of the area which Mr. Dioguardi was director
of, all charters had to be presented through him anyway.
The Chairman. That would come through him because he was di-
rector. I think that is correct. The charter is actually issued, of
course, by the international union, but his having been director in
that area, he had to approve it.
Mr. Goldberg. Well, I don't know whether that is so or not.
The Chairman. It is hard to find out what is true with some of
these operations.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you also an officer in local 649 ?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir, I was not.
Mr. Kennedy. You were not vice president?
Mr. Goldberg. No, sir, I was not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know another Abraham Goldberg in New
York City, that was vice president of local 649 ?
Mr. Goldberg. The only Abraham Goldberg I know is myself.
The Chairman. I have before me a photostatic copy of, "Labor
Organization Registration Form," filed with the Labor Department
here in Washington. I will show it to you so you may see it.
This shows that Johnny Dioguardi was president, and Abraham
Goldberg was vice president, Joe Curcio was secretary-treasurer of
local 649, United Automobile Workers, AFL.
Did you ever hold any office in that union? You may examine
this photostatic copy which I present to you.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. I^NNEDY. Mr. Chairman, you may also notice in there that it
says he was elected.
The Chairman. It also certifies that you were elected vice presi-
dent.
Mr. Goldberg. I will not argue with this document. If this docu-
ment says so, then I was an officer.
The Chairman. Did you ever know before you were an officer in
that local ?
Mr. Goldberg. I can only answer it, Mr. Chairman, that I would
not argue with that document.
The Chairman. It is not a question of arguing. I am not arguing
either. The document shows that you were. You may not have been.
You may have been and not know it.
Did you know it ? Did you ever hear of it before ?
Mr. Goldberg. Again, I can only repeat this, that the facts stipu-
late that my name is on that, and I will substantiate that that is my
name.
3744 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You substantiate that is your name. That does
not answer the question. I will ask you if you ever knew before that
you were an officer in that union, in that local.
If you had gotten elected vice president of a local as reported in
that, it seems to me that that would be something you would remem-
ber and be grateful for. You do not know anything about it, do you ?
You do not even remember it ?
Mr. Goldberg. Again I repeat and I
The CiL\iRMAN. I am not asking you to repeat. I am asking you
if you remember it, if you have any loiowledge of it. You know
whether you have or not.
Mr. GoLDiiERG. I don't remember it.
The Chairman. You do not remember.
Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. Once again, Mr. Chairman, we have a situation
where there is a person appearing as an officer of a local who does not
know that lie was an officer and it stipulates that he was elected and
he does not know^ that he was elected.
This is a document that is filed with the Government.
The Chairman. I may say this for the information of the witness :
These reports are required to be filed by law. It is the belief of this
committee that the law intended that honest reports be filed, and
accurate reports.
We are very much concerned that the intent and spirit of the law
is not being observed in some instances. It may be necessary to enact
remedial legislation to make certain that we do get, that the Govern-
ment does get, accurate and truthful reports where the law requires
them.
Otherwise, there maybe should be some penalty imposed for these
false reports. You have been helpful in saying that you do not re-
member it. I am very confident that if you had known anything
about it or had ever known anything about it, certainly if you had
been elected to an important position in a local as large as that local,
you would have remembered it.
It indicates that the affairs of some unions and some locals are
simply manipulated by some people who apparently, from the evi-
dence here, are unworthy to hold those positions.
Can you throw any further light on this after I have made that
comment ?
Mr. Goldberg. Mr. Senator, no, sir, I cannot.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, could we have tlie document on the
local down in Philadelphia, of which Mr. Goldberg was president,
made a part of the record and, also, this Government document filed
by local 649?
The Chairman. I do not know whether the witness can identify
this document.
I hand you here what purports to be a photostatic copy of a letter
from Mr. John Dioguardi, president, addressed to Anthony Doria,
secretary-treasurer, United Automobile Workers, AFL, dated Novem-
ber 10, 1951, in which he refers to you as president of the charter being-
granted in Philadelphia.
Will you examine the document and state if you identify it?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES LS^ THE LABOR FIELD 3745
Mr. Goldberg. I cannot identify the document.
Mr. Kennedy. We have a staff investigator who can identify this.
(Present at this point were Senators McClellan, Ives, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Be sworn, please, Mr, Tiemey.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select coimnittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. TiERNET. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL J. TIERNEY
The Chairman. State your name, place of residence, and your
present employment.
Mr, TiERNEY. Paul Tierney, assistant counsel to the select com-
mittee.
The Chairman. I hand you a document and I ask you if you can
identify it, and if so, where and how it was procured.
Look at tliis otlier one first. I will hand you the two documents.
Look at the letter, first, that I interrogated the previous witness
about.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. TiERNEY. Mr. Chairman, this is a letter from UAW Amalga-
mated Union Local 102, dated November 10, 1951, signed by Johnny
Dioguardi, president, to Mr. Anthony Doria, secretary-treasurer of
the United Automobiles Workers, AFL.
This was obtained from the international's files in Los Angeles.
The Chairman. Obtained by our staff from the international's
files, the files of the international union ?
Mr. Tierney. That is right.
The Chairman. The letter may be made exhibit No. 5.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5" for ref-
erence, and will be found in the appendix on p. 3973.)
The Chairman. I do not believe it needs to be printed in the rec-
ord. It may be made an exhibit for reference.
Now, you have the other document. Will you examine that and
state if you identify it?
Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir, Mr, Chairman, This is a labor organization
registration form, filed by local 649, United Automobile Workers,
AFL, on March 18, 1953, signed by John Dioguardi, president. This
was obtained by the staff from thet Department of Labor.
The Chahoian. All right. That may be made exhibit No. 6 for
reference.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 6" for ref-
erence and will be found in the appendix on pp. 3974-3975.)
The Chairman. Are there any questions about these documents,
Mr. Kennedy?
Senator Curtis. With reference to exhibit No. 6, is that a form
prescribed by the Department of Labor, do you know ?
Mr. Tierney. Yes, it is.
Senator Curtis. Does it call for a witnessing of the signature of
the president or officer submitting it?
Mr. Tierney. No, it does not.
Senator Curtis. It does not have to be notarized ?
89330— 57— pt. 10 11
3746 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. TiEKNEY. No, it does not.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. I may say to the Senator that in our preliminary
investigation in examining the Secretary of Labor in an executive
session by the subcommittee, before we started these proceedings,
their interpretation of the law is that it does not have to be accurate,
it does not have to be correct.
Senator Curtis. I asked my few questions on the premise that it
might be that there should be some changes in the law in reference
to the form of these reports as a protection to the public and to the
people who are filing accurate reports.
The Chairman. I cannot understand why the Congress in enact-
ing a law requiring someone to file a report, did not carry a forceful
implication that you expected an accurate and truthful report. That
is not the interpretation some people are giving it.
Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. We have one other witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, sir.
You may stand aside.
(Present at this point in the proceedings: Senators McClellan,,
Ives, and Curtis.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gasster.
The Chairman. Mr. Gasster, will you be sworn, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gasster. I do,
TESTIMONY OF HENRY GASSTER
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and
your business or occupation.
Mr. Gasster. Henry Gasster, Kego Park, N. Y. I am unemployed
at present.
The Chairman. You are what ?
Mr. Gasster. I am unemployed at present.
The Chairman. Unemployed at present.
Have you talked to members of the staff of the committee ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You know, then, generally, the line of questions
to expect, I assume?
Mr. Gasster. Well, I don't know.
The Chairman. Do you know you have a right to have counsel
present to represent you if you desire ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you waive counsel ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gasster, you have been in the labor-union move-
ment? You have been an official of a labor union; have you not?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Of various, different locals, or of just one?
Mr. Gasster. Well, one prior to the one in question.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3747
Mr. Kennedy. What union were you in prior to the one in question ?
Mr. Gasster. Federal Labor Union 21908.
Mr. Kennedy. What position did you hold in that?
Mr. Gasster. Organizer and vice president.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me go back to a little bit of your background.
You came from New York originally ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You have always been from New York ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You went to school there ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Through what grade ?
Mr. Gasster. A couple of years of high school.
Mr. Kennedy. Then what did you do ? You went to work in New
York City?
Mr. Gasster. I went to work.
Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me ?
Mr. Gasster. I worked.
Mr. Kennedy. At what?
Mr. Gasster. At various things. Trades.
Mr. Kennedy. Such as what?
Mr. Gasster. Well, I was a taxi driver. I had concessions in the
mountains. I worked as a counterman. I was a steward in a club.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you have an interest in being an officer
or official in a labor union?
Mr. Gasster. 1940.
Mr. Kennedy. That is when you took over and became an officer in
this local that you just mentioned?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you remained in that position until when?
Mr. Gasster. 1950, outside of the time I spent in the Army.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason did you leave your local at that
time?
Mr. Gasster. Well, I was a little bit dissatisfied with my coworkers.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1952 or 1953, 3^ou received a charter from the
UAW-AFL.
Mr. Gasster. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, your wife was working for Mr. Johnny
Dio, is that right ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. She was the secretary for Mr. Dio ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You applied for a charter from the international?
Mr. Gasster. From Mr. Doria.
Mr. Kennedy. From Mr. Anthony Doria ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you known Mr. Doria ?
Mr. Gasster. I was introduced to him.
Mr. Kennedy. Who introduced you to him ?
Mr. Gasster. I can't recall who it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Dio introduce you to him ?
Mr. Gasster. No, sir. I never met Mr. Dio.
Mr. Kennedy. You never met him ?
Mr. Gasster. No, sir.
3748 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know who introduced you to Mr. Doria?
Mr. Gasster. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You applied for a charter?
Mr. Gasster. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And he sent you a charter?
Mr. Gasster. He told me to send him a letter stating my qualifica-
tions.
The Chairman. Did you make your application through Dio-
guardi ?
Mr. Gasster. What was that?
The Chairman. Did you make your application for a charter
through Dioguardi ?
Mr. Gasster. No, sir.
The Chairman. Sir?
Mr. Gasster. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know he got into possession of it?
Mr. Gasster. No, sir.
The Chairman. I hand you here a photostatic copy of the appli-
cation, together with photostatic copy of a letter purported to be
signed by John Dioguardi, addressed to Mr. Anthony Doria.
I will ask you to examine these documents and see if you identify
them.
(Documents were handed to the witness.)
The Chairman. Examine first the application for a charter and.
see if that is a photostatic coi)y of the application that you filed.
Mr. Gasster. I never seen this letter before.
The Chairman. I am not talking about the letter at the moment.
I am talking about the application.
Mr. Gasster. The application? Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The application is a photostatic copy of the appli-
cation you filed ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now read the letter.
Mr. Gasster. I did read it, sir.
The Chairman. The application may be made exhibit No. 7.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 7" for refer-
erence and will be found in the appendix on p. 3976.)
The Chairman. Have you read the letter ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The letter is from John Dioguardi, is it?
Mr, Gasster. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And it is to Anthony Doria ?
Mr. Gasster. Anthony Doria.
The Chairman. Does not the letter say he is transmitting your
application ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Then the application did go through John Dio-
guardi ; did it not ?
Mr, Gasster. Not to my knowledge.
The Chairman. According to the letter, it did.
Mr. Gasster. According to the letter, it did.
The Chairman. Do you know how he came into possession of your
application, if you were handling the matter directly with Doria?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3749
Mr. Gasster. The original letter I sent Mr. Doria, my original
letter, stating my qualifications. He, in turn, sent me applications.
The Chairman. Sent you the application blanks ?
Mr. Gasster. The blanks. I filled them out. I really don't recall
how he got them.
The Chairman. You do not recall how Dioguardi got them^
Mr. Gasster. No, sir.
The Chairman. Obviously, he had something to do with it, in
view of that letter from him.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL J. TIERNEY— Resumed
(Present at this point in the proceedings : Senators McClellan. Ives,
and Curtis. )
The Chairman. May I ask Mr. Tierney this question :
Was that letter found in the files ?
Mr. Tierney. Yes.
The Chairjian. Let the record show that I directed that question
to Mr. Tierney, and lie answered that this copy of this letter was
found in the files of the international union.
That letter may be made exhibit No. 7-A.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY GASSTER— Resumed
(Present at tliis point in the proceedings : Senators McClellan, Ives,
and Curtis.)
Mr. Kennedy. You received the charter, did you not ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
(Letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 7-A'' and follows.)
Mr. Kennedy (reading). This is January 5, 1953, addressed to Mr.
Antliony Doria, United Automobile Workers of America, 429 West
Michigan Street, Milwaukee 3, Wis.
Dear Tony : Enclosed please find application for charter to be issued in the
metropolitan area. I have investigated the people involved, and find that they
have an excellent labor background. As per your instructions, I emphasized
the necessity for proper per capita tax payments, furnishing copies of all labor-
management agreements to the international, and making themselves available
at all times for instructions, and check by the international regarding their
records and activities.
Mr. Gasster and his fellow officers agree to the terms and conditions of the
international.
I will appreciate your immediate action in the issuance of this charter, as I
am convinced that this union will be an asset to the international and to the
labor movement.
Fraternally yours,
It is signed by John Dioguardi.
You received that cliarter, did you ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And local 198 went into existence ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long were you in existence ?
Mr. Gasster. Less than a month.
Mr. Kennedy. You were arrested for extortion ?
Mr. Gasster. That is a bad word.
Mr. Kennedy. You were arrested ?
Mr. Gasster. Anybody can be arrested.
3750 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I understand that. But you and Mr. Cohen were
arrested for extortion ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were indicted ?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Cohen was convicted?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. And Mr. Cohen then refused to testify against you ?
Mr. Gasster. He did testify.
Mr. IvENNEDY. But he refused to testify
Mr. Gasster. That I was
Mr. Kennedy. Let me ask you this: Did he not refuse to testify,
and told the district attorney that his wife had been threatened, and
he refused to testify ?
Mr. Gasster. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. You are not familiar with that?
Mr. Gasster. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. You are familiar with the fact that he refused to
testify in your case ?
Mr. Gasster. No. We were offered a plea to a lesser offense. I re-
fused to take it. In fact, I was not there at the time of the so-called
extortion. I don't know nothing about it. I wasn't present.
Mr. Kennedy. I understand the facts as they came out at the trial
were that you and Mr. Cohen went up there and had this conversa-
tion with the gentleman who owned the store, and then Mr. Cohen
came back. At that time, according to the people that owned the store,
you asked for some money. Mr. Cohen came back to pick up the
money 3 days later and he was arrested. You were downstairs and
he was arrested.
Mr. Gasster. That isn't so.
Mr. Ivennedy. Were you downstairs?
Mr. Gasster. I was in the neighborhood, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you arrested?
Mr. Gasster. I was arrested.
Mr. Ivennedy. Was he arrested?
Mr. Gasster. He was arrested.
Senator Curtis. Was he convicted ?
Mr. Gasster. He pleaded guilty.
Senator Curtis. You stood trial?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And you were found not guilty?
Mr. Gasster. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. That was the end of it?
Mr. Gasster. That was the end of it. That was the end of my
career in labor.
Senator Curtis. How many members did you recruit during that
time ?
Mr. Gasster. We didn't recruit any. We were just going out or-
ganizing.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't know if this is true or not, Mr. Gasster, but
I note in the file on this case from the district attorney's office that it
says,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3751
Gasster was tried on March 8, 1955, and on oral motion of Assistant District
Attorney Blustein, the indictment was dismissed. Cohen wouldn't testify
against him. A note in the file says, "his wife is dying." — -
meaning Cohen's —
"and that he is afraid of testifying because the codefendant threatened against
him."
You say that is not true, that you did not threaten him ?
]\Ir. Gasster. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you a commission agent at that time?
Mr. Gasster. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you a commission agent now ?
Mr. Gasster. Occasionally.
Mr. Kennedy. Occasionally?
Mr. Gasster. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is your source of income now ?
Mr. Gasster. Well, I
Mr. Kennedy. That is all right. I am not going to go into it.
Mr. Gasster. It is just as well ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Your wife's source of income up until the time Die
was arrested was as his secretary ; is that right ?
Mr, Gasster. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
Mr. Gasster. In fact, my wife quit the job the day I was arrested.
The Chairman. Is there anything else?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You may stand aside for a moment.
Mr. Ray, come forward, please.
(Present at this point were: Senator McClellan, Ives, and Curtis.)
TESTIMONY OF THEODORE RAY— Resumed
The Chairman. Mr. Ray, the Chair is considering recalling you
for further testimony. If I excuse you today, it might be necessary
to resubpena, unless I place you under what is known as recognizance
to reappear upon notice.
Will you give us your address ?
Mr. Ray. You have it.
The Chairman. Then we will know where to reach you.
INIr. Ray. You have it.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Ray. You have the address. You sent me a telegram. You
sent somebody to the house.
The Chairman. I want you to agree before the committee that upon
reasonable notice for a time for you to appear
Mr. Ray. Give me a definite date. You give one date then another
date. I don't know if I am coming or going.
The Chairman. We will get you going both ways.
Mr. Ray. That's all right.
The Chairman. The question is, I want you to agree and the record
will so show, that upon reasonable notice to appear again
Mr, Ray. It is agreed.
The Chairman. Before the committee, that you will do so.
3752 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Rat. It is agreed.
The CriAiRMAisr. All right. You may be excused until further
notice.
The committee stands in recess until 10 o'clock in the morning.
(Present at the taking of the recess were : Senators ]McClellan, Ives,
and Curtis.)
(Whereupon, at 4 : 15 p. m., the hearing in the above entitled matter
was recessed, to reconvene at 10 a. m., of the following da3^)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
FBIDAY, AUGUST 2, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN the Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D. C.
The select committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolution
74, agreed to January 30, 1057, in the caucus room. Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present: Senator Jolin L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Senator
Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York; Senator John F. Kennedy,
Democrat, Massachusetts; Senator Pat McXamara, Democrat, Mich-
igan; Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Senator
Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona ; Senator Carl T. Curtis, Re-
publican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Keimedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, chief assistant counsel ; Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel ; Robert
E. I)unne, assistant counsel: Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session : Senators McClellan, Ives, Kennedy, McNamara, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Senator Curtis, you have a statement you wish to
make ?
Senator Curtis. Thank you, Mr, Chairman.
On yesterday, the distinguished Senator from Massachusetts, Sen-
ator Kennedy, raised a question in reference to an inquiry that I made
of the witness, Theodore Ray. Senator Kennedy was very proper in
raising that question, and I know it was raised in the spirit of friend-
ship and cooperation.
My remarks in the record are made with the same spirit, but I do feel
that the record should be clarified a little bit.
I asked the witness, Theodore Ray, "Do you have any friends in the
labor movement?" He declined to answer on the grounds of incrim-
ination. I asked this, "Do you know Mr. Hoffa?" and the same re-
fusal. I asked, "Have you ever seen Mr. Hoffa?" and the same
refusal.
I asked, "Have you ever discussed any business, labor business or
otherM'ise, with Mr. Hoffa ?" and the same refusal. I asked, "Have you
ever had any conversations with Mr. Hoffa that would not incriminate
you V and the same refusal.
Then, my next question was, "Have you ever been in any meetings
with Mr. Hoffa, the facts concerning which would not incriminate
3753
3754 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
you ?'• Before an answer could be given or an objection made, Senator
Kennedy, and again I say very properly, and I am not criticizing-
Senator Kennedy, and I merely want to make the record straight, said :
I must raise some question about this.
I do not know whether it is going to be inferred that this witness has a con-
nection with Mr. Hoffa, but this witness is, from all I gather, a reprehensible
citizen.
Because he has taken the fifth amendment as part of his policy, which is part
of his constitutional right, I think that we should be careful about asking him
questions on which he will take the fifth amendment, using people's names
which may give an impression which may or may not be accurate.
I know the Senator is within his rights, but I do think as a matter of committee
policy, unless there has been clear evidence linking him to people, we should
not, because a witness takes the fifth amendment, permit a conclusion to be
drawn that there is necessarily a connection between the two people.
Wliereupon, the Chair ruled :
Well, the Chair would say this : If anyone has an idea that possibly there is
a connection, he has a right to ask the witness about it.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the record show that the
chart on my left, the same being chart No. 55, which is already in the
record for July 31, was prepared by the staff.
It purports to show a struggle for power in certain unions in New
York City. On that chart it shows where Johnny Dio and others
entered this labor movement. The record shows that Ray was an
associate, sometimes referred to as the chauffeur of Dio.
That chart also shows, and was not prepared by me, but prepared
by the staff, that the teamsters union does come into the picture and
where one group of unions in a sense failed, the teamsters have their
paper unions and they are merged to make a case.
^ There was before the committee a very definite connection or possi-
bility of a connection between the witnesses Ray and Hoffa. Last
evening I asked the committee counsel for a memorandum giving in
summary what is known about Theodore Ray's connection with these
same unions, and what is known about Hoffa's activity with them. I
wish to read that memorandum.
Ray appears as a charter member of Local 102, UAW-AFL, on an application
dated September 12, 1950. This was the charter issued to Zakman through
Berger. Zakman did not know Ray at that time, and he assumed that Ray was
a designee of Sam Berger.
Dioguardi's name first appeared on the second local 102 charter issued some 6
months later. Ray's name does not appear on this charter. However, several
people interviewed described Ray as an extremely close confederate of Dio's
in the union oflices at that time. He has been variously described as his
"chauffeur" and as his "bodyguard."
Theodore Ray was a vice president of Local 649, UAW-AFL, as of March 1952,
as reflected by the registration form filed with the Department of Labor. It is
noted that local 649 was originally chartered in March 1952. It would appear
then that Ray was its first vice president.
Johnny Dio stayed with local 649 as its president until September 1954, when
he resigned. Preci.se information of this local, during that period of time, has
been diflScult to ascertain because of the disappearance of its books and records.
However, it is assumed that Ray stayed with the organization until Dio left.
James Hofifa is known to have been a close associate and personal friend of
Johnny Dio from at least 1953 until the present time. In 1953 Hoffa did some
behind-the-scenes work in an attempt to have the then existing taxi local 102
integrated into the teamster movement.
The seven teamster "paper locals" were chartered in November 1955, at which
time Dio was ostensibly out of the labor movement, but still exercised control
over the UAW locals from whence came the paper locals.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3755
Testimony will develop that Hoffa endorsed the issuance of these teamster
charters to the Dio-con.trolled locals in New York.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to put in the record, I wish to again
say that this is in no sense intended to be a criticism of Senator Ken-
nedy, lie raised a point that the committee should think about, and
certainly we should be careful in all of the evidence that we put in.
I felt in this particular case that it would be well to have the record
show that we did have ample grounds for inquiring into the acquaint-
anceship and the connection between Theodore Eay and James Hoffa.
Senator Kennedy. I appreciate very much what Senator Curtis
has said, and the spirit in which he said it. I think obviously, as I
said yesterday, that Senator Curtis was within his rights as is any
Senator to ask any question he wants.
The only point that I was concerned about was that we had before
us, as I said yesterday, one of the most disgraceful citizens in the
United States who was under indictment for driving the getaway car
at the time of the throwing of the acid into Mr. Riesel's eyes.
At the time that the questions were asked, a clear connection had
been brought out between Johnny Dio and this man but not between
Mr. Hoffa and this man, although a connection had been brought out
between Johnny Dio and Jimmy Hoffa.
Now, the only exception that I took at all to the question was that
there was not just 1 question, but there were 6 or 7 all moving around
the same area and rather repetitive. We are on television and there is
a television audience.
Now, it might be possible for a Senator to ask if the witness knew
President Eisenhower and under his fifth amendment procedures he
would say, "I will not answer on the ground it may incriminate me."
The television audience looking in might gather the impression that
there was some connection, when all it was, was that he felt obliged
under the procedures set down for the fifth amendment to continue to
give that same answer regardless of who may be brought into the
questioning.
Now, I will say, too. Senator Curtis, that you have documented very
well the connection between Mr. Dio and this man, and the connection
between Mr Hoffa and this man, and certainly your questioning was
along the lines of the investigation.
The only reason I brought the question up at all, and perhaps it was
not an appropriate time, was that the questions were asked again and
again on this same point, driving home a connection between this man
and Hoffa, which at that time at least, had not been proved to me, and
that was the only reason it was brought up at this point.
Senator Curtis. I thank the Senator again, and again I say liis
position was very proper.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, while we are talking about the
record of yesterday, we had a witness appear here before us by the
name of Lester Washburn. He made some reference to the fact that at
the Michigan Federation of Labor Convention, in 1954, Hoffa made
some remarks that indicated a close friendship between himself and
Dio.
I have secured a copy of the minutes of that 1954 convention, and I
have gone through it very carefully, and I have read the speeches, and
up to now with a more or less casual looking over the rest of it, I find
3756 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES m THE LABOR FIELD
no reference to Johnny Dio in any remarks by Jimmy Hoffa. I think
that our records should show that.
The Chairman. If you have the minutes of the meeting, they may
be filed as an exliibit for the committee's information.
Senator McNamara. I have a copy that was borrowed from the
Library of Congress and I have to return it. But I will secure a
copy for the records.
The Chairman. Very well.
All right, Mi\ Chief Counsel, Mr. Kennedy, will you call your first
witness, or do you wish to make a brief statement outlining testimony.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, yesterday we had some testimony
from witnesses first showing that the man that was retained by Mr.
Dio to conduct the taxi drive in Xew York had just come from Phil-
adelpliia., and was brought up from Philadelphia to Xew York City,
and tliat he had just been convicted of extortion in 1949. He was
brought up to New York City by Johnny Dio to conduct tlie taxicab
drive in that city.
After Mr. Dio started his activities, one of the first charters that
he issued Avas a charter to local 198, and within 3 weeks of that charter
being granted, Mr. Chairman, the 2 individuals to whom the charter
had been granted were arrested for extortion. That was Mr. Gas-
ster's testimon}' yesterday. He and ISIr. Cohen were arrested for
extortion within 8 weeks of the time that they obtained the charter
for local 198 from Mr. Dio.
In addition, during the same period of time in 1952, Mr. Dio
appointed Mr. Topazio and another Mr. Cohen to be the trustee of
a local 188. Just before the}' were to take over that position, they
also were arrested for extortion.
So this is the history up until at least 1952 as far as Dio's activities
and the activities of those whom be brought into the labor union
movement.
Today we are going into, as you pointed out in your original state-
ment on the opening day, the effect of this kind of activity on the
community and on the employee and on the industry.
Today we are going to have some witnesses representing the
employees, and representing the people that were members of these
unions, to find out what the effect has been on them.
The fii-st witness wlio will give a background of this situation is
Mr. John lilcNiff.
The Chairman. Mr. INIcNifl', will you come around, please.
Will you be sworn ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help vou God i
Mr. McXn F. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN McNIFF, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
ROBERT S. PERSKY
The Chairman. Please state your name, and your place of residence,
and your business or occupation.
^ Mr. McXiFF. My name is Jolm McNiff, and I live at 270 Church
Street, in Poughkeepsie, X. Y., and I am presently acting as execu-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3757
tive secretary of the Association of Catholic Trade Unionists, New
York chapter, located at 327 I^exin^on Avenue, New York City.
The Chairman. Do jon have counsel with you to represent you?
Mr. McNiFF. I do.
The Chairman. Counsel, will you identify yourself for the record.
Mr. Persky. I am Robert S. Persky, an attorney practicing with the
firm of Luca, Persky & Mozer, at 150 Broadway, New York City,
and we are here as counsel to the Association of Catholic Trade Union-
ists.
The Chairman. All right. Thank von veiy much. Do vou expect
to testify ?
Mr. Persky. No, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. McNilt', 3'ou have a prepared statement, have
you?
Mr. McNiFF. I have.
The Chairman. It was tiled at the appropriate time'^
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. ]VIcNitl', you may proceed to read
your statement.
Mr. McNiiT (reading) :
In 1037. the Association of Catholic Trade Uni^nisrs was organized to help
the American working men and women learn, understand, and put into prac-
tice (Christian social priucijiles. Its ohjective is to work together with all men
of all creeds and of all races to achieve the establishment of a just social struc-
ture in America.
The assi^K-iation helieves slr(»ngl.v that an honest, democratic and militant trade-
union movement is essentia! for a sound and just economic structure in America.
The association believes every man has a right, even a duty, to freely join a union
of his choice and through officers freely elected to enter into collective bargainings
with his employer.
In order to forward these ideals and others, the ACTU has for 20 years con-
ducted labor schools in New York City where any man, regardless of race, creed,
or color may come and learn trade-union practices, labor legislation, and the
other tools of effective trade unionism. Out of these schools we are proud to
say came many of the great trade-union leaders of today.
In 19.58 it became obvious to our association that the Puerto Rican workers in
New York City was a negative factor in the dynamism of the New York City
trade-union movement. Except for a handful of locals, no one seemed impressed
whether these people were trade-union members or not, whether they became
active, loyal trade unionists or cynical inhabitants of our sweatshops. Thus
the ACTU began training bilingual persons to teach in labor schools that were
later established in many parish halls throughout Manhattan and the Bronx.
Through the medium of these schools and the active cooperation of Mr. .Jose
Lumen Roman, feature reporter for New York Si>anish language newspaper, El
Diario, the ACTU came in contact with a situation which staggers the imagina-
tion. The facts we have seen are fantastic. The utter injustices of some exploit-
ing employers and their partners, the extorting unions, are beyond belief.
We have seen how countless incidents of labor-management collusions have
resulted in the destruction of democratic trade unionism and have brought
forth such fruits as racketeer control of unions, misuse of union funds, bribery
and extortion. It cannot be stressed too often that the worst evil of all in the
traderunion picture today is collusion between crooked management and crooked
unionism because such collusion necessitates the total annihilati(m of all the dem-
ocratic procedures which act to check the officers of any union, because such
collusion negates any grievance procedures which act to protect the employee,
because such collusion makes collective bar.uaining, contract negotiation and
ratification a joke, and because in short, such collusion obliterates the whole
purpose behind American democratic trade unionism.
The standard procedure for companies and unions involved in this collu-
sion designed to exploit workers follows these lines :
I. The union approaches the employer or is called by him to ward oft unioniza-
tion by a group genuinely interested in protecting the workers.
3758 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
II. A contract is signed which has all or most of the following characteristics :
1. A wage scale a few cents ahove the legal minimum of $1 an hour, or a
weekly average of $40 to $42 a week.
2. Two to four holidays.
3. No sick leave.
4. Little or no vacation pay.
5. No welfare benefits.
6. No seniority, and
7. A promise — always fulfilled — and no enforcement.
III. From the signing of this initial "gentlemen's agreement" between the
company and the union the labor-management climate existing in the factory or
shop covered by such a contract may be described as follows :
1. The workers are afraid of both union and company.
2. No meetings of the union are ever held.
3. The workers are flatly refused a copy of the contract they work imder,
4. Workers who protest are fired without redress.
5. The "business agents" of these unions are unknown to the workers. Their
yearly or semiyearly visits are confined to conferences with the employer.
6. If an occasional shop meeting is called it is held in the presence of the
employer.
7. Union elections are unknown.
A partial list of unions cooperating with companies to exploit the Puerto
Rican workers and other unskilled or semiskilled workers in the metropolitan
New York area would have to include :
Locals 7, 8, 122, 222, 225 of the International Jewelry Workers.
Locals 1648, 136, 246, 111.5A of Retail Clerks International Association.
Local 223 of the Toy and Novelty Workers.
Local 679 of the Pulp Sulfite and Paper Workers.
Local 229 of the United Textile Workers.
Local 138 of the Distillery Workers.
Locals 821 and 2632 of the United Brotherhood of Carpenters.
Locals 239, 2.58. and 362 of the teamsters, and
Locals 224, 250, 355, and 649 of the Allied Industrial Workers.
Summarizing the situation we found to exist in this group of unions — which
comprises the worst of all those whose members have come to our oflSce for
aid — we find :
1. The workers are the victims of labor-management collusion which results
in the complete destruction of all their individual rights. If they are treated
unfairly by management, a union which will not help them get a family living
wage in contract negotiations because of a "deal" between company and union,
can hardly afford to break its agreement of guaranteed labor peace — for a
price — by forcing the company to respect the employee's rights.
2. Consequently, contracts are "negotiated" without any rank and file par-
ticipation, ai'e then classified "top seci-et" and forbidden to the members. This
practice of secret contracts, or at least the practice of not giving a copy to
the workers is imfortunntely even practiced by some of the more respected in-
dustrial unions in New York City.
3. Under section 9 of the Taft-Hartley Act, local unions must supply members
with copies of an annual h'nancial statement. No membei* who has come to
us of any of the above locals has received any information of the finances of
their union.
Senator Goldwater. May I interrupt, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McNiff, going back to page 3, in the last sentence of your
paragraph 2 at the bottom, you say :
This practice of secret contracts, or at least the practice of not giving a copiy
to the workers is unfortunately even practiced by some of the more respected
industrial unions in New York City.
Would you be able to give us a list of those that you know have that
practice ?
Mr. McNiFF. I will direct my attention primarily, since we are
dealing with the garment industry, to those shops we have been in
contact with most of the time. The union in New York City which
has most of those sliops and does not distribute copies of the contract
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3759
to tlieir members is the ILGWU. We have often pushed for the
practice, as with the steelworkers, and with many unions, of having
copies of the contract distributed to the workers, so that they will
know all of their rights and that they will know just what conditions
they are working under. This I think is fundamental.
Senator Goldwatek. I agree with you. Have you discussed that
practice with Mr. Dubinsky?
Mr. McNirr. I have not seen Mr. Dubinsky.
Senator Goldwater. Has any of your staff ?
Mr. McNiFF. We have discussed this matter with some of the inter-
national vice presidents of the ILGWU.
Senator Goldwater. Are you getting any encouragement that would
lead you to believe that they might be willing to do that?
Mr. McNiFF. I don't know whether it will become a general prac-
tice, but I do know that in some of the locals, local 155, Louis Nelson's
local, he distributed a copy of the contract after we requested it. We
requested it on behalf of the workers who came in and asked for it,
but this has not become general practice as of yet.
Senator Goldwater. Are you contacted by many workers who
would like to have a copy of these papers ?
Mr. McNiFF. Descending from the' ILGU, and speaking of locals
in general, I would say that that is one of the biggest complaints and
that whenever there is labor-management collusion, very often no con-
tract exists. It is a verbal agreement between the crooked union and
the crooked management to exploit the workers. Without a copy of
the contract, the worker does not know where' h ' stands.
I could give you a good example of how this liappens very often in
New York City on vacation pay. Very often, the contracts in some
of these industries have a clause about vacation pay stating that un-
less the worker is employed in the period of July 21 to August 31, as
a hypothetical figure, unless he is employed during that time he cannot
receive vacation pay.
What the employers then do is lay off about two-thirds of the shop
for that period of time, and get out of paying all of the vacation pay.
The workers then come into our organization and want to know if they
are entitled to vacation pay. They have the idea that vacation pay is
something that the law^ guarantees them. We try to explain tliat the
vacation pay is provided for in the contract and if we don't have a
copy of the contract we do not know whether they are entitled to
vacations or not.
Now very often workers are fired, are kicked right out of the union
for asking for a copy of the contract in some of these racket locals.
Senator Goldw^\ter. Mr. McNiff, does this occur with the union
knowledge ?
Mr. McNiFF. Well, for example, in local 1648 of the retail clerks,
when that was under the leadership of David Lustigman, who is now
in Atlanta for extortion, two workers went in and asked for a copy
of the contract at the union headquarters and they were subsequently
fired.
Senator Goldwater. The union then is in collusion with manage-
ment to deny vacation pay ?
Mr. McNirr. That is one example.
Senator Goldwater. And wlien management fires these people be-
tween the period you mentioned
3760 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. McNiFF. It lays them oif and then brings them back.
Senator Goldwater. The union doesn't do anything about it'^
Mr. McNirr. No, because they have nothing to gain by fighting for
the workers, and they will get the dues, regardless.
Senator (toldwater. Does that occur in the International Ladies*
Garment Workers Union ?
Mr. McNiFF. No.
Senator Goldwater. I don't want to prolong this, but would you
be willing to give us a list of other industrial unions that you know
are practicing that ?
Mr. MgNiff. I could not give it to you right now.
Senator Goldwater. I don't mean right now. But I say when you
return to your office would you send it down to us ?
Mr. McNiFF. I will go through the files and check all of those in-
stances which we have.
Senator Goldwater. Thank you very nnich.
The Chairman. You may prepare any list that you care to and
submit it, supplementing your testimony here today. Submit it under
oath, the same as your testimony.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, I think that this lack of ques-
tioning leaves the conclusion that Dave Dubinsky is part of this kind
of a deal. Do you mean to imply that i
Mr. McNiFF. No, sir. Mr. Dubinsky is nowhere near, and he is so
far away from this type of union that I would never like to give that
impression.
However, because Mr. Dubinsky \s miion is such a very good union,
it does not mean that it is perfect. I think one of the places where
it has fallen down is in distributing the contract to the workers. This
is very fundamental.
Senator McNamara. You mentioned a local of the International
Ladies' Garment Workers, and what local number was it?
Mr. McNiFF. No. 155.
Senator McNamara. Is that an old local or a new local ?
Mr. McNiFF. That is an old local.
Senator McNamara. 155 ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Then you mentioned the terms of the contract
regarding the layoff instead of vacation pay.
Mr. McNiff. That is right.
Senator McNamara. What do you think the union could do about
it, and what do you think they do not do about it that they should i
Mr. McNiFF. Could I keep the unions straight ? This has nothing
to do with the International Ladies' Garment Workers now. That is
unions in general, and what could they do ? First of all, we will put
it this way : A copy of the contract, even in a racket local, would let
the workers know where tliey stand legally. Tliat is just a very funda-
mental step. Now, unfortunately, even Avitli the contract from a racket
local, generally there are no rights in it, anyway, so it doesn't help
them out too iiiuch. But it is a step toward the right way.
On this layoil, for example, if the union is in collusion with manage-
ment, it will do nothing about laying oif three-quarters of the shop
and then bringing them back 2 montlis later when this period is over.
However, if the union is actually interested in the workers, it will
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3761
see that such a chiuse does not appear; that you have to work from
July 21 to August 21, or else you get no vacation pay. That is an
obviously vicious way to exploit the workers.
Senator McNamara. On the other hand, if it is a legitimate union,
and they negotiate terms of a contract with the employers through
collective bargaining, and this is the best that they can secure in such
a process, then this could occur in a perfectly legitimate union.
Mr. McISTiFF. It could occur in a perfectly legitimate union. The
only thing is that the unions we liave come across in which it has
occurred have not been legitimate unions.
Senator McNamara. But it could also occur in legitimate unions.
I do not think it is a charge in itself that is of great value to the
committee unless we get some substantiation.
Now, you might classify something as a legitimate union and 1
might classify it as a racket union, and the reverse might be true,
too.
Mr. McNiFF. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. So I think in fairness to these contracts that
are negotiated legitimately, the terms have to be lived up to and in
many instances the union recognizes that it should be better but are
unable to obtain it. I am not talking about racket unions.
Senator Ives. Mr. McNiff, I think that I know a little bit about
the situation in New York where this matter is a matter of concern.
Is the situation in which the employers generally find themselves,
and I am not talking about these racket emplo3'ers — and I am talking
about tliis idea of the layoff — is it that the employers generally just
do not have the work so they have to lay them oft'^ The sufferer in
this thing is largely the ujiion employment insurance fund in the
State of New York. As you know, this year they tried to raise the
rates in order to have sufficient amount with which to pay the benefits
for this period of time, and extend the time of the benefits. They got
into a political argument over the matter, and nothing happened.
But that is what is back of all of this, and I am very sorry that it
has become a part of this racket. But that is what the real situation
is, as you know, in New York City.
Mr. McNiFF. The seasonal situation ; yes.
Senator Ives. Further than that, I want to say this for Mr. Du-
binsky: I wish you yourself would try to get hold of him, and tell
him that I told you to do so.
Mr. McNiFF. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The Chair would suggest now, if we can, to let
the witness conclude his statement, the prepared statement, and then
we can make notes and come back to it. I believe we can make more
progress that way.
Mr. McNiFF (reading) :
No. 4. Even the criminal provisions of the Taft-Hartley are often violated.
It is a crime to deduct union dues without the signed authorization of the given
workers. Twice the associutiou has handed over to the United States district
attorney of the southern district. State of New York, sworn affidavits of workers
from two shops, to the effect that dues were deducted without any written
authorization. These shops were : Gilbertson Co., Brooklyn, then under contract
witli Local 224, Allied Industrial Workers; and Freezmore Metal Products,
Brooklyn, under contract to Local 122, International .Jewelry Workers Union.
We mention these two shops because of the mass violations which occurred in
89330— 57— pt. 10 12
3762 IMPROPEK ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
them. However, in nearly every shop that we have investigated we find people
from whom dues are illegally deducted.
5. Union meetings, when held, are only at a shop level and these are held
principally for the purpose of intimidation. As an example, we would like to
briefly describe the last known New York City rank-and-file meeting attended
by Lloyd Klenert, secretary-treasurer of UTW.
Archie Katz, an ex-bookmaker and president of racket local 229 of the UTW,
in an effort to ward off defeat in three of his shops where union shop deauthori-
zation elections were filed, called a joint meeting of the shops in question. As
a character witness, Archie Katz summoned Mr. Klenert, his international
secretary-treasurer. Klenert told the workers that he understood that they had
complaints and he was in New York City to solve them. One worker, from Macon
Umbrella Co., rose and stated that he had been in the union since 1952 and was
earning only $42 weekly. Klenert asked his name, consulted a list, and in-
formed the worker that when he joined the union he was making only $36 weekly.
Now after 5 years, he was earning $6 more every week.
The worker replied : "Yes, but the Federal minimum law says $40 a week."
Klenert, visibly angered, rebuked the worker and explained that UTW dues have
been spent in political action to raise the minimum wage. The rest of the meet-
ing was spent in Klenert attacking the workers as ungrateful for not appre-
ciating his role and that of the UTW in the American labor movement.
To illustrate in a more graphic fashion how these distortions of American trade
unionism operate, we would like to cite some typical cases which have come to the
attention of our oflSce.
The Gilbertson Co. is a mailing house in Brooklyn. Two years ago organizers
from Local 224, Allied Industrial Workers descended upon the shop. A meeting
was held between the union and the employers, and a contract signed. The
workers were then told they had a union. Initiation fees of $25 were deducted
from their wages. Dues of $3.50 per month were exti'acted from an average
$40 a week wage. There was no shop steward, no meetings, no seniority ob-
served in layoffs, no grievances ever processed, no health and welfare benefits,
and, of course, no contract was ever seen by the workers.
What makes this situation even worse is the fact that many workers never
even signed checkoff authorization cards as required by the Taft-Hartley.
Still dues were deducted.
We were fortunate here. We put these workers in contact with a bona fide
union that organized them, struck the shop, and forced the employer to cease
doing business with local 224.
To illustrate what kind of men Dio surrounds himself with and how rackets
and gangster control spreads once it has gained a foothold in the labor move-
ment, we would like to sketch the activities of one Louis Lasky.
A tragic example of injustice at the hands of this man whose immorality and
inhumanity knows no bounds, came to our attention in January 1957 when a
group of 100 Spanish-speaking workers, led by Juan Tavares, came into the
ACTU offices and i-ecounted a tale of exploitation at the hands of RCIA, Local
136, headed by Louis Lasky.
Louis Lasky is an old friend of Johnny Dio and served as vice president of
local 102 of the AFL Auto Workers. After a falling out between the two, Lasky
went on to make a name for himself collecting racket shops as did Dio. Local
136 of the RCIA was formed when Lasky and Dio split in 1952. It was for-
merly one of Dio's United Auto Workers-AFL locals, and its list of ofiicers,
while in the RCIA, reads as follows : President, Harold Weiss, Lasky's brother-
in-law ; secretary-treasurer, Louis Lasky ; recording secretary, Louis Lasky ;
business manager, Louis La.sky.
But Lasky is an ambitious man, and formed several other unions. Lasky has :
1. Local 136A, National Independent Union Council.
2. Local 142 of the Aluminum, Metal Alloys?, and Allied Trades.
3. Local 031, Amalgamated Textile Workers of America.
4. The National Union of Butchers, Drivers, Helpers, and Warehousemen of
America ; and
5. The Amalgamated Metalcraft, Wood, Plastic, and Wireworkers Union,
136A.
They are all Lasky independents.
For the past few years Lasky slowly transferred the members of his RCIA
locals into the independent unions he controlled. By doing this he is able to
keep all the dues money instead of paying the international per capita tax.
IMPROPER ACTIVITTES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3763
The following incident is a good example of how Lasky treated his members
as mere pawns to be used for his own personal advantage.
One hundred Puerto Rican workers were employed by Merit Enterprises, Inc.,
a metal factory which at that time was located in Queens Village. The com-
pany planned to move to Brooklyn, N. Y., and wanted to get rid of tbe old
workers, because they had started to assert their rights and Lasky was begin-
ning to have diflSculty living up to his guaranty of labor peace. Lasky helped
the employer get rid of the old employees by refusing to negotiate a new con-
tract with the employer when the old one at the Queens Village plant ran out.
This left the employer legally free to move his shop and tire all 100 workers in the
old shop, open the new plant in Brooklyn and hire new more easily controlled
workers at a lower wage scale.
Lasky's gain in the transaction was the transfer of the company from local
136 of the RCIA to Lasky's own personal union, local 136A. of N. I. U. C, whose
president is Pearl Weiss Lasky, Lasky's wife, and whose secretary-treasurer is
Daniel Lasky, his brother, and whose director^ — a symbolic title if there was one —
is Louis Lasky.
The RCIA situation also is worthy of study to illustrate how many of the
welfare funds provide welfare only for the union officers. For example, in
another now expelled RCIA union, local 433, headed by Al Cohen, the con-
tracts required that an employer pay $5 per week per employee to a welfare
fund and $10 per week per employee to the union to study a pension plan.
When the international took over the books of this local 433, the welfare
fund which was getting $10 a week per employee, had a balance of $7 in the
bank and the pension study plan had a balance of $17.
It must be constantly emphasized that such incredible mismanagemet of funds
could not take place without the happy cooperation of employers and their
representatives.
Let me give you an example, the individual in question is Marshall M. Miller,
a labor-relations consultant with offices at 1700 Broadway. l^Tr. IMil'pv was
formerly a union organizer for the Upholsterers International Union. He was
tired by the union for making collusive deals with employers in New York in 1949.
Immediately he went into business as a management consultant. He ap-
proached and was hired by many of the employers with whom he had made deals
in the past.
Miller first came to our knowledge when he appeared representing three dif-
ferent employers who have contracts with an ex-bookmaker turned union leader,
Archie Katz, president of Local 229, United Textile V\^orkers, AFL. H„> appeared
at many NLRB proceedings and in open cooperation with Katz, attempted to
keep the shops under local 229 control.
He now has formed a management association, the Textile Trades Association,
which according to its bylaws, was formed to "maintain freedom from unjust
extractions, regulate conditions of employment, and maintain industrial peace."
The real purpose of this association, which is by the way a union-dominated
employer association, is to write a master industrywide contract to prevent the
workers in the individual shops from decertifying local 229.
Miller also has appeared to represent the Keystone Garter Co. recently. This
company employed 60 Puerto Rican workers and for the past 4 years has paid
the dues of all the employees to local 138 of the Distillery Workers Union. What
the garter shop was doing with distillery workers, I don't know.
The average wage here as in the local 229, UTW shops, was $40 a week. No
welfare benefits, no seniority, no grievance procedure and no one even knew the
union existed. Obviously, a type of industrial peace was fostered by Marshall
Miller.
Over and above Mr. Miller's career in labor-management relations, he also
has time to be public spirited. He is a consultant to the New York State Legis-
lative Committee on Industry and Labor. This is a title of honor he utilizes to
create a facade of legitimacy.
Senator Ives. I just want to interrupt you there.
You say this Miller is consultant for the New York State Leo;isIa-
tive Committee? Is that the joint committee on industrial and labor
conditions in New York State?
Mr. McNiFF. I believe it is.
Senator Ivtis. This fellow is a consultant for it ?
Mr. McNirr. He is.
3764 impropp:r activities in the labor field
Senator Ives. I am very <i^lad to learn this about him. The com-
mittee will find ont about it, too. Thank you very much for the
information.
Mr. McNiFF. I might say, Senator, that this information appeared
in a series on the New York situation, runnino; in the New York Post
about 3 weeks ago. It identified Mr. Miller in this capacity, and as
of yet, nothing has been done.
Senator Ives. There would not be any opportunity to do anything
yet. That committee was reorganized about 2 months ago.
Mr. McNiEF. He uses this title to appear legitimate.
Senator I^^s. What service does he perform for that committee ?
Mr. McNirr. That I don't know.
Senator Ives. Is he in research or something like that?
Mr. McNiFF. The title he uses is "consultant."
Senator Ives. What is his appearance?
Mr, McNtff. I haven't a description of him.
Senator Ives. Is he a short fellow ?
Mr. McNeff. Could I see you on that later, Senator?
Senator Ives. I wish you would give me full information about it.
I am very much disturbed about anything like this.
Go ahead, I do not want to interrupt you any more, and pardon
me, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McNiFF (reading) :
In addition to the failures of the unions we have mentioned, all of which are
members of the AFL-CIO, the situations treated hy the many indei)endent unions,
unaffiliated with the AFLf-CIO are fantastic to a point beyond belief.
Some indeiJendents, such as those of Lasky's, which we have already touched
ui)on above, are larue-seale extortion outfits. Others, such as those affiliated
witli Confederated Unions of American, National Independent Union Council,
Allied Craft Unions, and the United Industrial Unions, are pathetic in their
petty larceny.
For example, Visamer Industries, a Brooklyn concern, signed a contract with
Local 242. Amalgamated I'roduction Workers Union, in 1953. This union has
filed 1 financial report in Washington in 1953, in which it listed assets of $4.
As its oflice location, it listed first one address and then another. The former
was a barbershop, the latter, a vacant lot.
This situation would be very comical if it were not for the fact that the
employer deducted $3 each month from every employee to pay this phantom
union and gave substandard wages and no benefits in return.
But in summary may we state that we believe that there are a few basic
principles that can be adduced from this situation.
First, any contract establishing a rate of pay of $40 to .$45 for a 40-hour week
is immoral. It is not a living family wage. A union that contracts for such a
wage does not deserve to exist, much less collect dues.
Thus, our organization advocates the establishment of a provision on the part
of the AFL- CIO that no local union may collect dues if its members earn from
$40 to $45 per week for a 40-hour week.
Secondly, the only effective cure of the Puerto Rican labor problem in New
York must come through trade-union action. In this we commend AFI^CIO
President Meany's concern for this problem. We heartily agree with the honest
trade unionists like Harry Van Arsdale, of the International Brotherhood of
Electrical Workers, and Jack Rubenstein, of the CIO Textile Workers I^nion of
America, and Morris lushevitz, who are heading a special committee estab-
lished by Mr. Meany to clean up this corruption in their program of raiding
this element out of existence.
Thirdly, we would respectfully urge the following amendments to the National
Labor Relations Act which we think would strike at the heart of this problem,
chiseling employers and their satellites, the union racketeers.
These proposed amendments were approved after exhaustive debate at the
12th National ACTU Convention held .Tuly 5, 6, and 7. 19.57. The new claU.ses
added to the National Labcn- Relations Act would provide :
IMPROPER ACTIVITrES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3765
1. That any collective-bargaining agreement be void unless the appropriate
unit has approved the agreement by an NLRB-conducted secret ballot.
2. That any collective-bargaining agreement be void unless filed within 10 days
after execution at a designated place open to inspection by members of the
covered unit.
3. That all moneys collected in violation of existing NLRB regulations and
under voice contracts be recoverable from the employer and/or the union ofiicials
involved.
4. That it shall constitute an unfair labor practice for either the employer or
the union to directly or indirectly enforce a void agreement.
5. That it constitute a violation of the Criminal Code to collect moneys
pursuant to a void agreement.
These amendments would guarantee the employee an effective mechanism by
which he would be able to approve and to have access to the contract under
which he earns his livelihood, surely something which is but an elementary
right of all employees. It would thus make private deals between crooked
unions and crooked management almost impossible.
In conclusion, we would like to state that the picture in New York City's
marginal industries, is a complicated one. But one factor stands out. The mob
is nearly in control of every union that deals in this type of shop. With the
emergence of James Hoffa and John O'Rourke as leaders of the teamster unions
in metropolitan New York, the Puerto Rican and Negro worker will be extremely
hard pressed to ever gain honest democratic trade unionism.
The Chairman. Why do you include Hoffa in that statement ?
Mr. McNiFF. I included Mr. Hoffa, if I may say so, because while
this may not be evidence admissible in court procedures, I was speak-
ing from what you would call common knowledge in New York labor
circles. In other words, it is the same thing as knowing who blinded
Riesel but not being able to prove it in court.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. McNiFF (reading) :
The alliance which has been made by Corallo-Dio-Hoffa and their petty satel-
lites, Lrouis Lasky, Hyman Powell, Archie Katz, Doniinick Pape, and others, to-
.i^etlier with their employer fronts, like Marshall Miller, has already brought
honest New York City employers and their employees to their knees.
Gentlemen, if this alliance is allowed to continue, we can assure you that over
a million workers will be deprived of any bona fide union representation.
The social effects of this collusion have already been felt by the taxpayers.
Much criticism has been leveled at the Puerto Rican and Negro workers in New
York City because they allegedly overflow the New York City welfare rolls. It
has been our experience that over one-half of the Puerto Rican workers we have
interviewed who are on welfare are receiving aid for dependent children or
supplementary assistance. The cause of this is the happy cooperation of the
employers and the unions to exploit the worker. Together they have created
a depressed-job area. They have made it virtually impossible for an unskilled
Puerto Rican worker, supporting a family, to earn over $4.5 a week. This situa-
tion is costing New York City over $25 million a year in welfare payments alone.
The looting of welfare funds has cast an overwhelming burden on our city
hospital system, especially its clinics.
In order to rid themselves of this type of economic slavery the workers must
seek the aid of the bona fide union in New York City. In this process many
strikes must ensue. However, any strike not supported by the teamsters in the
marginal industries is almost i>reordaiued to failure. If the employees of an
Allied Industrial Workers' shop strike to rid themselves of the AIW, a call by
Mr. Dio to his cohort, Mr. O'Rourke, starts the trucks rolling away with the
production.
Should a decertification petition be filed, the employer simply picks up his
cheap machines from Brooklyn, and with the help of the Dio-Hofifa-0'Rourke axis
moves to the Bronx where he finds another friendly union to dominate and
intimidate a new crop of unskilled and unlettered workers.
The unknowing employer has no difliculty finding a union willing to supply
him with a management consultant well versed in happy cooperation.
The continuance of this situation may create a condition in which honest
unionism shall cease to exist in New York City.
3766 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chatrman. Thank you very much, Mr. McNiff.
Senator Ives has a question.
Senator Ives. The reason I am particularly interested in this is
because it is a New York matter, and I know a little about it. In
the first place, on page 4 of your statement, under paragraph 4, you
refer to taking these matters up with the district attorney, but you
do not indicate what kind of results you received.
Did you get any results worthy of the name ?
Mr. McNiFF. The letters that we sent to the United States district
attorney of the southern district were transferred to the eastern dis-
trict because of jurisdiction, and that caused a lag of time.
Right now, they are in the eastern district, and as of yet, nothing
has been done.
Senator Ives. How long have they been there?
Mr. McNiFF. Since February.
Senator Ives. Since February ?
Mr. McNiTF. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Knowing how those courts are jammed up, I am not
surprised at that length of time.
Mr. McNiFF. Pardon me, may I correct that? I have the papers
here. That was another case. I have the letter here. It was May
20 when Mr. Ambrose sent it to the eastern district.
Senator Ia^s. That is not too bad considering the way those courts
are jammed up up here. There is another thing. I take it you are
acquainted, having been in this field in New York State, with the
fact that New York has a State labor relations board ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes, sir.
Senator Im^.s. Have you ever used that? You are talking in your
statement all of the time about the National Labor Relations Board
and about the Taft-Hartley Act.
We have a State Labor Relations Act in New York State, which I
think is impoitant from your standpoint because I think a great deal
of this activity is intrastate, is it not, and it might be fully as effective
for you as the National Board.
Mr. McNiFF. I must confer on one thing, and may I confer with
counsel ?
Senator Ia^s. That is what I am trying to find out.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. McNiFF. I just wanted to check this. The main reason why
we have used the NLRB has been that the biggest weapon that we
have been able to use in getting rid of racket unions has been decer-
tification elections or union-shop deauthorizations.
Senator Ives. Which the State Labor Relations Act does not
provide ?
Mr. McNiFF. It does not provide for it.
Senator Ives. I realize that.
Mr. McNiFF. What happens, and why we are so excited about the
contract always, is that as you know the contract is a bar for an elec-
tion for at least a peiiod of 2 years. So that what happens when you
have a racket shop is this :
Suddenly, they produce a contract, and the ink is still wet on it,
which goes for the next 2 years. This makes it impossible for us to
have an election or for a decent union to have an election to come in
and take the shop.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3767
Lacking the ability to have an election by a good union, we have a
union-shop deauthorization election. This way, no more dues are
collected by that racket union. What then happens is that most of
these unions are only interested in the dues anyway, so when we get
the dues thrown out, they disappear.
Legally, they are still the bargaining agent for the 2-year period.
However, once they have no dues, they just forget the shop ever ex-
isted, and then a good union can come in.
Senator Ives. Have you sought to appear before a legislative com-
mittee to have the State law amended ?
Mr. McNiFF. Honestly, Senator, we have been so busy just taking
care of the cases that have come in to us
Senator Ives. I can see you have been busy, but it occurs to me if
you could get a State statute under which you could operate, you could
use the State courts and things of that kind, I think that it might be
fully as effective as what you are trying to do through Washington.
I would suggest you try to get some legislation through the legis-
lature of the State to help you.
Mr. McNirr. Along the same lines of union-shop deauthorization,
you mean, Senator ?
Senator Ives. Yes.
Mr. McNiFF. And decertification ?
Senator I\'t;s. You may have trouble there. These racketeers may
try to block you, you know, posing as union leaders, but I think you
have a pretty good group in that legislature.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Are there any questions ?
Senator McNamara. I think the young man has made a marvelous
presentation, and I am sure overall it is of great help to the commit-
tee, and I want to compliment him on coming here and cooperating
with this committee.
Certainly, this situation needs the attention of this committee and
all decent people involved.
On page 4 you spell out in great detail what happened at a union
meeting starting out with, "Archie Katz, an ex-bookmaker," and so on.
How do you get this information in such detail ? Were you there ?
Mr. McNiff. At the meeting you mean ? Oh, yes, we were at the
meeting.
Senator McNamara. You were there ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Are you a member ?
Mr. McNiFF. Of the union, no. Could I explain the situation
there ?
Mr. Katz attempted in this meeting to convince some of the union
leaders in New York City and some members of the press that his was
a good union and Klenert was supposed to come up and smooth things
over.
We were uninvited, but invited were Jose Perez of the Puerto Kican
affairs committee of the AFL-CIO and, if I am not mistaken, I think
Mr. Murray Kempton of the New York Post was there.
Mr. Perez, after the meeting, said to Mr. Katz to the effect of, "Wliy
invite me to this meeting? Obviously you were trying to put some-
thing over on me." He was quite distressed about that.
3768 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator McNamara. It is interesting to me that you were there and
you go to these ends to follow it up.
Mr. McNiFF. Sometimes we get thrown out.
Senator McNamara. I think it makes it much more valuable. You
are a full-time employee ?
Mr. McNirr. No; well, during the summer I am. I am a student in
the law school, or I will be in September. I might add about our
organization that it is all volunteer work and that is why our staft'
is so limited.
Senator McNamara. You are paid to some degiee in the summer.
Mr. McNiFF. During the summer I receive some expenses.
Senator McNainiara. How does your organization get financial
support ?
Mr. McNiFF. We have members who believe in spreading Christian
social principles, and we have a connnunion breakfast once a year
which publishes a journal and in which ads are sold. We publish a
newspaper, which gets some money in, and then we run a dance once
a year.
Senator McNamara. Obviously, you yourself do a lot of work that
you do not get paid for.
Mr. McNiFF. Yes.
Senator McNamara. I think that you are to be commended for
doing this job and I for one, speaking only for myself, appreciate your
appearance.
Senator Kennedy. I Avant to join Senator McNamara, Mr. NcNiff,
in complimenting you for what you have done, and what your organ-
ization is attempting to do. I think the facts you have brought: out
liave been tremendously valuable to the committee, indicating who
really pays for these racketeers in the labor union movement.
Now, it is interesting that these people who come before us are
supposedly trained union leaders, but are actually racketeers — people
like Mr. Cross of the bakery workers.
We had an example of his tieup with an employer in order to deprive
the workers in one of his locals of a reasonable wage, and a comparable
wage in the area around and com])arable to other locals.
We had Mr. Klenert, who came before us for misusing union funds,
and his name has come into this hearing as an exploiter of workers
and now we have these other examples that you have given.
I think it indicates these people that this committee has been investi-
gating are not labor-union leaders. They live off labor unions. I
think your testimony perhaps more than any other dramatizes this
close tieuY) between corrupt employers and racketeers who move into
the labor-union movement and exploit the worker. I think your
testimony has been especially valuable in throwing light on this and
I liope that any trade-union members who are looking in will realize
hoAv important it is that these racketeers be thrown out of the labor-
union movement, for their own interests, let alone the public interest.
I think your testimony has been particularly lielpful and valuable
and I am hopeful as time goes on the committee can attempt to develop
this point more and more frequently.
The only question which I had was with reference to your sugges-
tions as far as amending the National Labor Relations Act. Do you
feel these sugaestions are sufficient and that thev would do a measur-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3769
able job, or is it your opinion that in the last analysis it will be up to
honest trade-union people to drive these hoodlums out ?
Mr. McNirr. Senator, as I tried to say, first of all I tliink it is im-
possible to legislate this out of existence, utterly impossible. I think
it has been unfortunate and there have been some benefits and sonie
loss from the AFL and CIO merger when they signed a nonraiding
pact, because this has hampered good unions that have seen a bad
situation and want to take it away from a crooked local.
But if that crooked local happens to be affiliated, you can't raid.
So, therefore, there is immunity there. It would be helpful if the
AFL-CIO were to set up just one special committee a trouble-shooting
committee, to take locals out of the international completely and put
them under the arm of the AFL-CIO, and clean up the situation and
then transfer them to those who have jurisdiction over them.
That would be a very vital and a very important way of doing it.
Now, this matter of contracts Avas suggested to us from the clause of
the National Labor Rehations Act now, which makes it obligatory to
file your financial statement. Before financials were filed in Wash-
ington it was impossible for a worker to find out what the finances
were.
Now. nil he hns to do is ask Mr. Rothman, the Solicitor of Labor,
and till out the proper affidavits, and he will get the financial state-
ment that was filed by his union.
Speaking otl' the cutl", probably every one of the crooked locals has
crooked financials, but at least you have something. With the con-
tracts, making contracts be filed would make it impossible to have the
employer suddenly appear with a contract for the next 2 years.
In other words, you would know when your expiration date is, you
could get your strategy ready to bring in a good union and have a
decertification election when that contract was up.
Now, filing of contracts is just something which has to be done.
Most of it has to be done by the AFL-CIO itself.
Senator Kennedy. I am glad that you brought up that point. I
know Mr. Meany mentioned to the committee that he is attempting
to assist. I am hopeful that as a result of the work that they have
done, and with your testimony, that they will consider taking further
action. I am rather concerned that any possible amendments to the
Taft-Hartley Act, which certainly could not come for another year,
anyway, will really not irieet this situation which will exist in the
next 12 months. So it has to be met partly by the legal authorities.
While I know the court dockets are overcrowded, since May 20 have
you had an investigation of your charge?
Mr. McNiFF. We have received no reply since May 20.
Senator Kennedy. In the last 2i/2 months, you have not heard any-
thing ? Have you had an acknowledgement ?
Mr. McNiFF, Other than from the southern district that it was sent
to the eastern district ; no.
Senator Kennedy. I think it is time that the eastern district met
their responsibility in this.
In 21A months, it seems to me that you ought to get some sort, of an
answer as to whether they are going to do something or are not going
to do something.
I know that they are busy, but it seems to me that this is an out-
rageous situation. I cannot believe they are that busy that they can-
3770 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
not at least indicate to you if an investigation is taking place or when
an investigation is going to take place. It seems to me that their
responsibility to you and to the people who are involved in this is to
take some action, or at least indicate when they are going to take some
action.
On the last point, it seems to me what is involved here, the people
being exploited, Negroes and Puerto Kicans, are those who, through
lack of being able to speak English, such as the Puerto Ricans, or
lack of education, or lack of a community establishment for them to
protect themselves, those are the people that are being lived oflf of by
these people. It is the people at the bottom of the heap who have no
protection of their own and no resources which they can fall back on.
Is that correct?
Mr. McNiFF. It is virtually a repetition of what has happened to
every immigrant who has entered the United States.
Senator Kennedy. That is why they have to depend on groups like
yours, which is a volunteer group, or on the authorities. That is why
I am particularly anxious to see some action taken by those in a posi-
tion of responsibility in this area on your complaint. In any case,
in summing up, I want to compliment you. I am hopeful that the
AFL-CIO, even though they have done a good job in this field, will
attempt to do more, in view of the "no raiding" which you have dis-
cussed, and see if they can work out an alternate solution perhaps
along the lines you suggested.
The National Labor Relations Board and the local New York
authorities can also work on it.
It is a disgraceful situation.
I am glad you brought it to our attention this morning.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. McNiff, I want to join my colleagues who
have complimented you on this report. I think it is by far the most
outstanding one I have listened to in nearly 5 years of labor hearings.
I want to compliment you on it, not only for your organization's
sake, but for the work that you, yourself, put in it.
I have just one or two questions. Have any of the larger retail
establishments in New York City been guilty of the practices that
you have outlined on pages 6 and 7 in relationship to the retail clerks?
Mr. McNiFF. In all my comments, sir, I try to limit what I would
say on my own personal firsthand information and the experience of
our association, anything that I would say on that. All the work
that we have done has been on what I would call fly-by-night shops,
very marginal industries, men who are in business 5 years and then
maybe out of it.
I would say the better elements of business — and I want to mention
one association which has done an awful lot, the Commerce and Indus-
try Association in New York, headed by Thomas Jefferson Miley —
on this business is very much against this. But it is what I would
put in quotes, the "sharp operator," who wants to cut costs to the
minimum, and the biggest cost to cut is labor.
So we have honest industries paying a decent wage, competing
against substandard industries who are just cutting the corner, and
underselling their honest competitors by exploiting the workers.
This is something that I think busiiiess is just as responsible for
and should take just as active an interest in wiping out.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3771
As I mentioned, the Commerce and Industry Association lias done
a lot of work to try and get business to realize this is their responsi-
bility, too.
(At this point, Senator McNamara withdrew from the hearing
room.)
Senator Goldwater. I have one other question that touches on
what Senator Kennedy was asking you. On page 8 you say "In addi-
tion, failures of the unions we have mentioned, all of which are mem-
bers of the AFL-CIO" and then you go on to discribe those that are
not affiliated with this merged union.
To your knowledge, has the committee on ethical practices been
informed of these violations?
Mr. McNiFF. Well, the committee on ethical practices has been
informed on the violations of the unions in the AFL-CIO. We sub-
mitted a 50-page document.
Senator Goldwater. How long ago did you submit the evidence to
them ?
Mr. McNiFF. I can't get exact dates, but it was about the last week
in May. Mr. Meany appointed Mr. McGavin and we met with him.
]\Ir. McGavin spent about a month in New York, going back and
forth from Washington to New York, investigating the situation,
collecting information. I am not sure but I understand that he has
submitted his report to Mr. Meany, and that it is being worked upon.
Senator Goldwater. But there is no action as of yet ?
Mr. JNIcNiFF. Yes. There have been some individual cases. I will
just sketch one little one. What I want to emphasize constantly is
that this is not like General Motors or United States Steel. These are
all 60 people in a shop, so it is multiplied again and again.
One example that was just recent was that district 65 of the Retail-
Wholesale Clerks Union struck a shop in Manhattan which had been
formerly in a crooked local of the jewelry workers. The international
president of the jewelry workers, Mr. Powell, rescinded the jewelry
workers protection from this crooked local and let district 65 come in
and clean up the situation.
In the meantime, the employer, who was trying to get around paying
decent wages, was building a plant in Flushing. He also had a plant
in Brooklyn. He was going to move both into Flushing, and make
a deal with a crooked union.
Actually, then, what he did was take all the business from the Man-
hattan plant and put it in the Brooklyn plant, so that the strike in
Manhattan was ineffective.
The plant in Brooklyn was organized by the lUE, the optical
workers division of the lUE, and they at first did not want to strike
the Brooklyn shop, and did not want to support the raiding of the
crooked union in Manhattan. However, after conferring with Mr.
Meany and McGavin and the committee and discussing the entire
issue, their complaint was that it wasn't in district 65's jurisdiction,
that they were the optical workers, and if anyone was going to do it,
they should.
Well, after much conferring, they went right along with Mr. Meany,
I tiiink he gave the initial push on it, the ItJE cooperated completely
with district 65, would not let the employer run the shop out of Brook-
lyn while the one in Manhattan was on strike, cleaned out the crooked
3772 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
union, and now the AFI^CIO itself has not delegatecl this new shop
in Flushing to either one of the unions. District 65 has the one in
Manhattan. The IT"E has the one in Brooklyn.
AVhen they move to Flushing, then it will be determined which one
will take care of both.
But they all cooperated in that situation, and that was just last
week. It ran for i2 weeks, to clean up a very bad situation.
That was a very good step.
In unions, one" of the worst things is jurisdictional arguments. If
the lUE had not cooperated, this could have stopped the clean-up
right in the initi al stage. However, they said —
Regardless of this jurisdictional argument we will go completely along with
it, first clean out the racketeers and then we will take care of these jurisdictional
questions.
Senator Goldavater. That is veiy encouraging. Thank you very
much.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairmax. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. McNiff, I want to join with the others in com-
mending you for a fine statement. You rej^resent sinceie concern for
the people involved, and it is a courageous statement.
You have been associated with the Catholic Trade ITnions for some
little time, have you ?
Mr. McNiFF. While I was in college, for the 4 years, I went nights
down to the organization.
Senator Curtis. You are a resident of New York ?
Mr. McNiFF. lam.
Senator Curtis. I believe you stated that considerable of this work
has been volunteer work on your part ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes. Well, the whole organization is volunteer. I
want to stress that. I don't like you to get the idea that I am a one-
man organization. We have lawyers that have worked on these cases
time and time again, all without fee.
Senator Curtis. I think your entire group are entitled to very high
praise, not only for the fine work you have done but there is always
a good reason for people not speaking out about abuses that exist in
any field of activity.
I will be quite brief, but there are a few points I want to clear up.
These dishonest practices and collusion that you have talked about,
that has not been confined entirely to the Puerto Ricans and Negro
workers, has it ?
Mr. McNiFF. No, they have not. However, our organization has
come in contact, I would say, where 80 percent of the work has been
with Puerto Ricans. We spotlight the Puerto Ricans because num-
berwise that is tlie biggest group being exploited right now.
Senator Curtis. And perhaps the dishonesty and exploitation is
more pronounced and very much more commonplace with respect to
these groups ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes, I think it is.
(At this point. Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. But these practices here do exist outside of those
two special groups you mentioned ?
Mr. McNiFF. I would say so.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3773
Senator Curtis. I was impressed by what you said at the bottom
of page 2 and the top of page 3, about the workers are afraid of
both union and company; no meetings of the union are ever held;
workers do not get a copy of the contract; workers who protest are
fired, and so on, and the union elections are unknown.
It is true at the present time a union or a bai.uaining agent can
just be set up by almost anybody.
It is a voluntary association, is it not ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes, that is right.
Senator Curtis. Do you tliink that it might be appropriate for the
Congress to give consideration, at least, to tlie possibilities of certain
minimum requirements as to what constitutes a bargaining miion,
and whether or not it should be incorporated as a nonprofit corpora-
tion, or given some identity where the members can seek protection
of the laws of tlie various localities where they are located? Do you
think that should be explored ?
Mr. McNiFF. This is speaking quite extemporaneously.
Senator Curtis. Or do you think it should be done by definition
in the National Labor Relations Act ?
Mr. McNiFF. What I think as a constant stress with unions is that
unions are basically democratically run. That is the one thing that
can always save a union.
I kiiow of so many examples of men who, in racket situations, stood
up, had families, antl they really put themselves on the spot. They
had other people together, and they fought these miions. Through
the democratic process, they were able to take control.
I would hesitate, very, very much to speak in favor or think of
any legislation which would transfer it from voluntary to something
like a corporation setup. I think it wouldn't be the right thing to
do with unions.
Senator CimTis. I certainly share your view on the idea of keep-
ing it voluntary. But there is a problem in that somebody like this
man Lasky that you mentioned says "I am the union" and that is it.
Somewhere there should be some basic definitions of what constitutes
a union and who can be a bargaining agent, sliould there not?
Mr. McNiFF. I just received a note from our lawyer, something
which I had completely forgotten, which might bear looking into,
and that is an enactment like section 8 of the Waterfront Act of New
York, where officers of unions may not be felons, where a convicted
person may not hold an office. That might be a big step, but many
unions may look with disfavor on my saying it. I think it would
be a step at cutting down this racketeering.
Senator Curtis. I was interested in the expression you used that
when these corrupt and dishonest situations exist one remedy you
could pursue would be the union-shop deauthorization. Would you
expand on that a little bit ;• what you mean by it ?
Mr. McNiFF. The union-shop deauthorization is a vote. I won't
go through all the procedure of getting the vote. It is a vote which
is administered by the NLRB, a secret ballot, where the voters decide
whether they want to rescind the union-shop authorization. What
that does, in effect, is make it possible for a person to work in the shop
who is not a member of the union.
3774 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
That is voted by a majority of voters. They decide that you can
work in the shop without being a member of the union. Therefore,
you do not have to pay dues.
This is the way to getting the dues not paid to the union.
Senator Curtis. In other words, if a union is in corrupt hands,
or it is not serving the interest of the workers, they can refuse then
to pay dues and still not lose their jobs ; is that right ?
Mr. McNirr. That is correct, according to the law. However, in
the struggles that we have had on union-shop deauthorizations, wher-
ever there is a lawyer there is a way to delay, there is a way to get
around it, and we have had some difficult fights.
Senator Curtis. I understand it is difficult, but the objective you
are driving at is a situation where these workers can protest against
the treatment they get from a union by not paying dues and without
losing their job ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes. Wliat I would say is if the union does not
have the support of the people in the shop, obviously it should not
represent those people.
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. McNiFF. If they vote not to pay dues, obviously they do not
think enough of the union to want it.
Senator Curtis. Is it true that most of these dishonest contracts,,
when they are entered into, do provide for a union shop ?
Mr, McNiFF. The way I understand it, and I am open to correc-
tion, originally when the Taft-Hartley was enacted there was an elec-
tion to be held to establish a union shop. However, I think in over
98 percent of the elections that were held by the NLRB on this clause,
the union won. So it became sort of, let us say, senseless bureaucracy
and repetition, and very cumbersome to have all of these elections,
if in 98 percent of the time you knew what the outcome was going
to be.
So then this was taken out of the Taft-Hartley so you didn't have
to have an election to establish a union shop.
Senator Curtis. What I am talking about is. When there is collu-
sion, these cases that are frowned upon, when there is collusion be-
tween management and labor, and the members do not have access to
look at their contracts and so on, in most of those cases is the union
shop in there ?
Mr. McNiFF. Theoretically it is. However, once there is collusion,
what often happens is if somebody is a friend of the boss he doesn't
bother paying dues. They just make an arrangement. The union
says, "How many workers do you have" and the employer says, "200."
"What is your low point ?"
"One hundred and twenty-five."
"From now on, send me dues for 150 people."
Senator CuiiTis. In other words, it is operated as a union shop and
in order to get at the corruption, one of the steps you take is to strive
for this procedure that you referred to, a union shop deauthorization ?
Mr. McNiFF. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. As long as the practice of the union shop is carried
out, then the union leaders have a hold over the workers; is that cor-
rect ? Or, at least, they are financed in whatever they are doing.
Mr. McNiFF. I wouldn't know whether it is the union shop that puts
the hold over the workers.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3775
Senator Curtis. I will put my question this way : What, then, are
the advantages of deauthorization ?
Mr. McNiFF. It opens up a way of not paying dues. It is just a
roundabout way not to pay dues. That is the principal advantage.
Senator Curtis. I understand that.
Why do you not want them to pay dues, and what is gained when
you shut off the dues ?
Mr. McNiFF. When you shut off the dues, the union leaves, if you
have enough of the people behind you. What also often happens is
that that does not stop people from being fired or laid off. If the boss
wants a crooked union and the union is working with him, and a
union-shop deauthorization election is filed, they will, together, either
lay off most of the people and bring in new people, and then we have
to sign up their names, or they will fire, outright, the petitioner. But,
luckily, under the Taft-Hartley now, being fired for union activities
is an unfair labor practice, so we can go to the NLRB for this. How-
ever, that generally takes 6 or 7 months.
So the procedure involved in it certainly puts the employees in a
difficult position.
But if we do win the election, that means that no longer will these
people have to pay dues. If they no longer have to pay dues, the union,
who was only there to get dues anyway, will leave, nine-tenths of the
time.
(At this pomt. Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing
room.)
Mr. McNiFF. If we are strong enough to win the election, generally
we are strong enougli to have the workers all leave, go out on strike,
if they try to fire the leaders, or if they try to lay off the good people
in the shop.
(Members present at this point: Senators Kennedy, Goldwater,
Mundt, and Curtis.)
Senator Curtis. I did not mean to imply that once you accomplished
the deauthorization it solved your problems. But the big thing you
gain is to shut off' the money that finances a bad labor union.
Mr. McNiFF. Right.
Senator Curtis. Again I want to commend you for a comprehensive,
well thought-out statement and a courageous one, and all of your
associates.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman?
Senator Kennedy. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. Mr. McNiff, I am very sorry that I was detained at
another meeting so I was not here when you read your statement. But
I have read it from the manuscript while my colleagues have been
interrogating you. I certainly desire to associate myself in congratu-
lating you on the constructive and courageous nature of that state-
ment.
It has described a very shocking situation which, in my opinion,
rivals, insofar as these Puerto Ricans in the city of New York are
concerned, the conditions under which Negroes in America lived before
the P^mancipation Proclamation, and I suspect, actually, that some of
the Negroes in those days lived better than some of the Puerto Ricans
under these deplorable racket-ridden union conditions that you have
described.
3776 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE K\BOR FIELD
I believe and hope that our committee is going to be able to help
write a second emancipation proclamation, which, insofar as the
American working man and woman is concerned, is going to give the
protection which is badly required.
As I read your statement, it would appear that ultimately the tax-
payers of New York City and New York State wind up holding the
sack because of the racket-ridden conditions existing in New York
City, because these poor workers wind up eventually on the public
welfare rolls, do they not?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes. They receive supplementary assistance. That is,
if you earn $40 and you have a family of 6, the welfare department
decides that you need another $1'2 in order to exist, and this comes
from the welfare department.
(At this point. Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt. It w^ould seem indicated from that, that the State
government of New York State and the city government of New York
City, and the county governments involved, should join with this com-
mittee in trying to work out some correction. This is a cancerous
condition which can become even more serious than what is exposed.
I sincerely hope that the representations that you have made to the
AFL-CIO ethical practices committee are speedily acted upon. I
am sure that there are some corrective steps that they could take.
I am equally positive that legislation by Congress is going to be
required, as you have indicated, to completely correct the situation.
(At this point, Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt. I notice on page 9, you have five recommendations.
1 want to ask you about reconnnendation 2, that any collective-bar-
gaining agreements be void unless filed within 10 days after their
execution in a designated plac«, open to inspection by members of the
covered union.
Do you anticipate in this family of five recommendations that you
make that the National Labor Relations Board or some representative
of the ethical practices committee, or some third party somewhere, be
tliere to examine the books to be sure. No. 1, that the number of
workers covered jibes with the number of workers from whom dues are
being collected, and, 2, that they are receiving the national minimum
wage provisions, whatever they happen to be, in that particular
locality or in that particular line of work?
Mr. McNiFF. Well, this specific clause would only say that any col-
lective-bargaining agreement would be void unless it is filed. In other
words, what that means simply is that when you make a contract, that
a copy of that contract must be sent probably to the regional director
of the NLRB. He w^ould then keep this on file.
If a worker from a shop covered by that contract wanted to see
that contract, he Avould send in a request to the NLRB, the regional
director, who would then send him a photostatic copy.
As for examining books, that wouldn't enter in here. That is a
step we have not contemplated.
To be honest, sir, my background has been limited to this type of
business and I would not really be capable to speak in favor of examin-
ing union books or things like that, to check figures.
I do know, of course, that if you are paying substandard wages,
under the minimum wage, that definitely the Government agencies do
subj^ena the books and check them. They have helped in many situa-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3777
tions, where people have not been receiving the Federal minimum
wage, and the company has been forced to pay all the back wages
which they had not received.
(At this point, Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room.)
Senator Mundt. The payment of substandard wages must form an
inherent part of this whole racket, or otherwise there would be very
little incentive for dishonest employers to engage in collusion with dis-
honest representatives of labor.
Mr. McNiFF. I would say, sir, that the Federal minimum wage is
much too low, and if the Federal mininunn wage were more than a
dollar an hour, at least $1.25, if there were some kind of hookup or
correspondence b3tween the minimum wage and the cost-of-living in-
dex, I think it would demonstrate that $1 an hour, $40 for a 40-hour
Aveek, is far too little. Presupposing that the Congress were to raise
the minimum wage to, taking a low ligure, $1.25 an hour, $50 a week,
that would automatically force these unions to give the workers much
iiearer a living wage, and then in order to stay in existence, they
would have to get the worker ^not $50, but woukl have to get him at
least $52. There is no sense paying dues for the Federal minimum
wage.
Senator Mundt. That is right. You get that as a consequence of
law.
Mr. McNiFF. Yes.
Senator Mundt. When you are talking about minimum wages, do
you recognize the validity of the argument th t a national minimum
wage is, m itself, an instrument of inequality because living conditions
and cost of living in your hometown of New York City are a great
deal clilferent from working conditions and living conditions and
cost of living in my hometown of Madison, S. Dak.? A minimum
wage, it seems to me, that is going to be equitable, and a minimum wage
that is going to take care of the needs of New York City, would have to
be a minimum wage which recognized zones or regions or areas. If
not, it automatically has to be either too high in my part of the coun-
try or too low in your part of the country.
How do you propose to meet a situation of that kind?
Mr. McNiFF. Well, sir, I wouldn't really want to go into the mini-
mum wage at this point because that is a rather long and involved
discussion.
Senator Mundt. One of the many problems that confronts labor,
and one of the roadblocks which prevents labor from getting the kind
of minimum wage which you feel would be an actual honest minimum
wage in New York City is the tendency to look at the country as a
v.hole and say, "Well, everybody has the same cost of living, every-
body has the same problems as they have in New York City."
Such simply is not the case.
If we can ever get a concept of the national minimum wage which
recognizss the Federal Eeserve bank regions, zones, or something else,
so that you deal equitably with the laborer wherever he lives, then
some progress can be made. But there is this tendency to try to look
at the whole country and say, ''What is good for New York City is
essential for the whole country."
That is not necessarily the case.
89330— 57— pt. 10 13
3778 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I have lived in New York City. I know the extra costs involved in
living in New York City as compared with living in the Midwest, for
example. I do not think that New York City should try to impose
bankruptcy wages on the Midwest any more than the Midwest should
try to impose sweatshop wage standards in New York City. But I
think those of you who are leaders in labor and interested in the work-
ingman wherever he lives should recognize the complex nature of this
country and approach the problems by regions and by zones so that
you deal equitably with the worker wherever he lives and not just pick
out a theoretical schedule and say, "This is what we probably need
in the Battery, so surely this is what they must also need in Madison,
S.Dak."
Mr. McNirr, All I would say is that it should correspond with the
cost-of-living index, as arranged by zone.
Senator Mundt. As arranged by zones ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes.
Senator Mundt. That is what I have been saying.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Senator Kennedy. When these Puerto Ricans get off the planes
coming into New York, how do they get the job? Do they go to an
employment agency?
Mr. McNiFF. Sometimes they do.
Senator Kennedy. Is there any collusion between employers and
employment agencies?
Mr. McNiFF. We worked quite a time on one. It was very difficult
to in^'estigate. That Avas all I could say. We do not have proof to
the fact on employment agencies.
However, I will say that in one of the strikes that we ran, local 1648,
on Morgan Leather Goods and Ruddee's Leather Goods shops on
Greene Street, it was against the racket control by David Lustigman.
Wlien we were on strike at that shop, the workers went out on strike
and then through the labor school heard of us and came to us for
advice.
We kept them on strike. We helped them with the picket signs.
While these people were picketing this racket union which was paying
the low wages, that strike was broken, in part, by employment agencies
licensed in New York City by the commissioner of license, Daniel
O'Connor, who did nothing to help us, and the welfare department
took people through the picket lines who needed jobs, and brought
them rieht into the shop.
Senator Kennedy. I am hopeful the Commissioner will be coopera-
tive. I would think that when these Puerto Ricans arrive off these
planes they are subject to exploitation immediately, particularly by
the employment agency which might work with the corrupt union
and manufacturer.
I understand also that sometimes they pay a $25 initiation fee and
then they are fired in 2 weeks, or the}'^ work a year to be given a vaca-
tion and just before vacation begins they are fired.
Mr. McNiFF. That is very often true.
Senator Kennedy. In other words, if they are promised a week's
vacation at Christmas, they work up to Christmas or 3 or 4 days
before the vacation is to begin, and they are discharged ?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Do you have any cases of that ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3779
Mr. McNiFF. I have many cases of that. I couldn't give it to you
offhand, but I have it in the files.
Senator Kennedy. The last point is this : You have been in many
of the shops where these people work. What are the working condi-
tions like as far as toilet facilities, lighting, air, and so on ? Are they
sweatshops ?
Mr. McNiFF. I would think it would shock a great number of peo-
ple if they did two things : First, visited the factories that these peo-
ple work in and then visit the homes that they pay good rent to live in.
Senator Kennedy. Good rent ?
Mr. McNiFF. Very good rent. Twenty dollars a week is not excep-
tional for one room.
Senator Kennedy. The Bureau of Labor Statistics found recently
that it cost $52 a week, roughly, for a single woman to live in New
York City on a minimum basis. You make the point that many of
these people get $42 and they have to deduct something for families.
Do they have families ?
Mr. McNiFF. Most of them have families.
Senator Ivennedy. Obviously, they are all living on the thin edge.
I hope someone who is in a position of responsibility in New York
City will visit these shops. I am hopeful you will cooperate with
them and go through them and check them for these matters of work-
ing conditions, lighting, toilet facilities, and so on, which I under-
stand are very bad. ,
Mr. McNiFF. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. In that connection, you said about $40 a month
for a single room in New York City ?
Mr. McNiFF. Not $40 a month; no. Twenty dollars a week for a
single room. I have seen that often.
Senator Mtindt. That would be 50 percent of their income.
Mr. McNiFF. Yes.
Senator Mundt. The people with families do not live in a single
room, do they ?
Mr. McNiFF. Often they do. _
Senator Mundt. With families?
Mr. McNiFF. Yes.
Senator Mundt. TVhat would they have to pay in New York City
to live in what you would call reasonable living conditions, either an
apartment with a suite of rooms or a home, where a family is supposed
to live ? What would they have to pay ?
Mr. NcNiFF. Well, it is such a big problem of housing in New York
City. To begin with, you don't have enough apartments. The public
is always slow to help public housing, which is desperately needed.
The people who own these slums are certainly not going to assist in
their destruction.
I would say to live decently in New York you could do it on $20 a
week, you could do it on $80 a month, which would even be a little less,
for rent. However, you will come across the discrimination barrier.
Senator Mundt. In New York State? My, my. Is there discrim-
ination there ? I thought they were the gilded white lily.
Mr. McNiFF. Right now in the city council, they are trying to pass
an antibias law, housing law.
Senator Mundt. Is there not a State law against discrimination in
New York ? I have been hearing a lot about a State law.
3780 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. McNirr. Not in housing.
Senator Mundt. Not what?
Mr. McNirr. Not in housing.
Senator Mundt. Not in housing ?
Mr. McNiFF. No.
Senator Mundt. It is in hotels, but not in private homes ?
Mr. McNiFF. In public places. That is one step, to try and allow
Puerto Ricans
Senator Mundt. Do they have zones up there where certain colors,
where certain national groups have to live in areas ?
Mr. McNiFF. No; it is rather fluid.
Senator Mundt. It is what?
Mr. McNiFF. It is very fluid. You will find in one block Irish,
Italians, Jews, Puerto Ricans, and Negroes.
Senator Mundt. I would think that New York City would be fair
game for our eager-beaver Supreme Court to work on. Certainly that
must be a violation of the Constitution or violating something.
Mr. McNiFF. I would think New York City itself in that antibias
law is taking a very good step. I hope it is passed. Of course, the
real-estate interests have much power.
Senator Mundt. I gathered from your statement you felt that pub-
lic housing was the only solution to the substandard living conditions.
Mr. JNIcNiFF. Not the only, but it is very big.
Senator Mundt. In other words, if you are going to perpetuate sub-
standard wages, tlien probably substandard housing become a neces-
sity. If employers, unions, and the rest, work to give a man a regular,
respectable working wage, then the pressure is off on public housing,
because private realtors would build houses and apartments and
people could afford to pay respectable rent. Is that correct ?
Mr. McNiFF. I w^ouldn't say it is an either-or situation. First of
all, you have the crowding. That is one of the reasons. Even if the
person was earning, a Puerto Rican earning, $65 a week, he has to live
in the same slums because of the crowded conditions, because the anti-
bias legislation has not yet been enacted and endorsed. Not only
should we have public housing, but many unions have housing.
Senator Mundt. I think you might explain to a country boy from
South Dakota just why my poor depressed farmers back home should
pay extra taxes to build public housing in the city of New York so they
could continue to practice discrimination, which they vote against
in Congress and practice at home. It is confusing to me. I have
to explain this to the folks back home where we have no substandard
living and no discrimination.
Mr. McNiFF. This is the whole thing of the interrelatedness of the
Nation, sir. I couldn't at this point go into a discussion of why one
region should help another region. I have not prepared myself
that much.
Senator Mundt. I am not trying to get you out on a theoretical
basis on all the complications we have in the economy. I am simply
trying to point out that in my opinion as you move away from dis-
crimination in New York State and New York City, and as you move
away from substandard wages in New York City, you also move
away from the necessity of shouldering off on the general taxpayer a
responsibility for building houses, because once people have income,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3781
and once there is no discrimination, private capital is always willing,
eager, and able to build apartments and homes to rent to people who
have the money to pay for them.
Mr. McNiFF. I would say so.
The Chairman, Thank you very much, sir.
The Chair joins with the other members of the committee in ex-
pressing appreciation and commending you for your testimony.
Mr. McNiFF. Thank you, sir. I wish to thank the committee for
its kind attention Avhile I spoke.
The Chairman. Call the next witness. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Bertha Nunez.
The Chairman. AVill you be sworn, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Nunez. I do.
TESTIMONY OF BERTHA NUNEZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ROBERT S. PERSKY
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and em-
ployment.
Miss Nunez. My name is Bertha Nunez. I work for Century Prod-
ucts Works, 2926 White Plain Road. I started to work in Century
on March 18, 1955. We don't know how this union came into the
shop.
The Chairman. Just one moment, please.
Counsel, are you appearing to advise her ?
Mr. Persky. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The record will reflect the same counsel appearing
for her as appeared for the previous witness.
Now you may proceed. Go ahead and tell us your story.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell a little bit of your background, first,
where you Avere born ?
Miss Nunez. I was born in Honduras, Central America. I am 27
years old. I want to give you a story on how everything was started.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell when you came to this country ? How
long ago did you come ?
Miss Nunez. I have been in this country 4 years.
Mr. Kennedy. You learned English once you got here ?
Miss Nunez. Well, yes ; I learned some.
Mr. Kennedy. And then you went to work for this company ?
Miss Nunez. Then I started to work in Century March 18, 1955.
Senator Mundt. Would you tell us how you first got your first job ?
Miss Nunez. I worked in other shops before. My third job over
here was in Century Products.
Senator Mundt. I am interested in how you got your first job when
you first came to this country. Was it through some relative, a friend
of yours, or how ?
Miss Nunez. I went to an agency, and I paid $12 to buy my job, and
I took the first job that way.
Senator 'Mundt. For $12?
Miss Nunez. $12, yes. But I know now some other way. In the
shop I work right now, the company were with the agencies, and the
3782 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
workers have to pay $17 to buy the work, and sometimes they just
work for 1 month, and then later they fire them.
Mr. Kennkdy. They pay $17 ?
Miss NuxKZ. $17 for the shop, for the job.
Mr. Kennedy. The worker pays tliat to the employment agency ?
Miss Nunez. To the employment agency.
Mr. Kennedy. And they work just a month and they are fired?
Miss Nunez. And then they are fired.
Senator Mundt. Plow does the worker pay it? Is it in cash, or do
they take it out of the first month's wages?
Miss Nunez. If they have the money, they pay cash. If they don't,
so they pay by terms. Most of the workers in that shop, they go for
the agency.
Mr. ICennedy. How much were you making in your first job when
you came here ?
Miss Nunez. AVlien I came here I was making $32. That was the
first shop I had, the first job I had. But when I start to work for Cen-
tury, I was making ^36, and then was when the union came in. I
think I am going to give you the story first on how the union came in?
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees do you have in Century?
Miss Nunez. We have 150 employees. All are Spanish, most of
them.
Mr. Kennedy. "V\Tiat?
Miss Nunez. Ninety percent are Spanish workers.
Mr. Kennedy. Ninety percent are Spanish workers?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Out of the 90 percent that are Spanish workers, how
many speak English?
Miss Nunez. About 4 percent.
Mr. Kennedy. Four percent?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. So very few workers speak English, is that right ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. A few of them speak English. Most of them
don't know how to speak English. Most of them are Puerto Ricans,
Most all of them are Puerto Ricans.
Mr. Kennedy. TVhen you first came there, you were making $36 ?
Miss Nunez. Thirty-six dollars.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1955 ?
Miss Nunez. Yes, in 1955. And 1956 was when the union came in,
and I got a raise of $38, but I have to pay $1 a month dues.
Mr. Kennedy. You got a raise up to $38 ?
Miss Nunez. Rut I have to pay the $4 a month dues.
Mr. Ke^s^nedy. Four dollars a month in dues, is that right ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Vlien the union came in, what union was it that
came in?
Miss Nunez. Well, it was the Allied Industrial Workers.
Mr. Kennedy. Allied Industrial Workers?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Local number what ?
Miss Nunez. Two hundred and fifty.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a vote amongst the employees as to
whether you wanted the union?
Miss Nunez. No.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3783
(At this point. Senator Kennedy withdrew from the hearing room.)
Miss Nunez, One day before they told all the workers to stay in the
sho]) after 4 : 30 because the union was coming to talk to the workers.
So most of the workers stayed in the shop, and later on two delegates
from local 250, Neil Levin and Albert, I think it is, a Spanish organ-
izer for local 250, Levin spoke to us.
Mr. Kennedy. There were two organizers that came in ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. One was Spanish, Alverez ?
Miss Nunez. And the other one was Neil Levin.
Mr. Kennedy. And then the foreman for the employer told you you
would have to stay afterwards ?
Miss Nunez. The foreman told the workers we would have to stay
because the union was coming to talk to us. So then Neil Levin spoke
to us and he promised wage increases, benefits, and a lot of things.
Then most of the workers refused to join local 250, but they talked
to us, Neil Levin talked to us, if we don't join local 250 we are going
to be fired.
So then everybody
Mr. Kennedy, You were told that the employer would fire you
unless you joined the union?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Miss Nunez. So then everybody has to join local 250.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the initiation fee for the local ?
Miss Nunez. The initiation fee was $1 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the dues. Did you have to pay any initia-
tion fee when you first came in ?
Miss Nunez. No; the initiation fee was $15 and some persons they
were forced to pay $18 and $20, you see, because sometimes they take
the dues in the first month and they pay $15. So sometimes they fired
the workers. Tliey give layoffs to the workers. When they come
back to work, they start to take the book again, so they pay $18 or
$20 for a book.
Mr. Kennedy. The initiation fee was $15, $18, or $20 ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Some workers paid $20, some paid $18 and some paid
$15?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
]\Ir. Kennedy. And after they paid, some of them were fired ?
Miss Nunez, Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And they might have been rehired and they would
have to pay the initiation fee all over again ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And' in addition to that, you ]Daid your dues, is that
right, of $1 a week ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. "V\n^ien the organizer was there from local 250, was
the employer there at the same time?
Miss Nunez. The employer, the boss, Mr. Klein, and the foreman,
Walter, they were present all the time with us, and Walter, the fore-
man, he helped Neil to sign the cards.
Mr. Kennedy. He was present when it was announced to the
workers ?
3784 IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Miss Nunez. Yes, he was present.
Mr. Kennedy. When he announced that unless they joined the
union they would be fired ?
Miss Nunez. Yes, they were present.
Mr. Kennedy. The employer was there at the time ?
Miss Nunez. Yes, the boss.
Mr. Kennedy. The union organizer had gone in and talked to the
employer prior to the time he talked to you ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you continue, then ?
You all joined the union at that time? Did you get a copy of
your contract?
Senator Mundt. Would you bring out what this meant in terms
of wages ? Did they get more wages or less wages ?
Mr. Kennedy. You got a raise to $38 a week ?
Miss Nunez, That is what I said before. I was making $36, and
they give me $38, and I have to pay $4 a month dues.
Senator Mundt. So you came out $1 a week raise ?
Miss Nunez, Yes, and the next raise we got was when the $1 mini-
mum Federal wage came out, to make $40.
Mr. Kennedy. In addition to the $1 a week, you mentioned the $15,
$18 or $20 that you had to pay initially.
Miss Nunez, Yes,
Mr, Kennedy, Did you get a copy of the contract that was signed ?
Miss Nunez. Nobody saw the contract. We always asked to see
the contract, but they never wanted to show it to us. One day a girl,
she grabbed it from Levin's hands.
Mr. Kennedy. She grabbed it?
Miss Nunez, Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. She grabbed it out of Levin's, the organizer's hands ?
Miss Nunez. Yes, and she say that much of the contract would be
inked out.
Mr. Kennedy. That many of the provisions were inked out ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that the contract that was to be
signed for you was just to be for 1 year? Were you told that it was
for 1 year ?
Miss Ni'NEz. Yes. In tlie summer 1955, when Neil give the cards,
he say that it was going to be for a year contract, but then when he
come again he told us that the contract is for 2 years. Before he say
it was for 1 year, when he start to talk to us, to say did we want to
join the union, but later they put it 2 years in the contract.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear that there was any pension or welfare
benefits in the contract?
Miss Nunez. They don't give nothing to us.
Mr. Kennedy. No health or welfare?
Miss Nunez. No welfare, no benefits.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any arrangement made as far as seniority?
Miss Nunez. No. They do whatever they want with the workers.
Some of the old workers they got fired, and they would give layoff to
them. During the layoff time, they were taking new workers. I
figure they take new workers because that way they start to pay dues
again, and start with the union and everything.
Mr. Kennedy. And then they get the initiation fee?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3785
Miss Nunez. They get the initiation fee.
Mr. Kennedy. So it wouldn't matter when they Lay people off
whether they had been there a long time or a short time ?
Miss Nunez. It doesn't matter.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell me, did the union ever process any grievances
by the employees?
Miss Nunez. No. In the 2 past years, I know in local 250 we only
have about 4 or 5 meetings. I went to those meetings, and Neil Levin,
he sit at a table and then all the workers started to talk at once and
nothing was accomplished, because everybody would talk at the same
time. Somebody would call him a racketeer and then the meeting was
ended.
Mr. Kennedy. The meetings that you did hold or did attend, the
workers started talking about their grievances?
Miss Nunez. Yes. He just sit at the table, you know, and he don't
call attention to the workers. He start to talk to one or another one.
That is not the kind of meetings we are supposed to have.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the workers complain at that time about the
fact that some of them had been there many years and were laid off?
Miss Nunez. We give the complaint to them, but they never did
anything.
Mr. Kennedy. What were the conditions in the shop itself that
you work under ?
Miss Nunez. In winter, the factory was unheated.
Mr. Kennedy. Was what?
Miss Nunez. Unheated.
Mr. Kennedy. It was not heated ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. And then in winter, in December 1956, the fac-
tory was so cold one girl, I remember, she was pregnant, she asked
for a few days off' because of the cold and they refused it, the fore-
man refused to give her the days off, and then she contracted pneu-
monia and lost the baby. She asked the union for some benefits, but
the union don't do anything.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there any facilities at all to keep the plant
warm in the wintertime ?
Miss Nunez. I think vso. If she wants to do something
Mr. Kennedy. Was it cold all the time in the winter?
Miss Nunez. One time everybody went home. Nobody would stay
in the shop because it was so cold. Then it was the time when they
start to fix the heats.
Mr. Kennedy. What about in the summertime? Are the con-
ditions difficult then ?
Miss Nunez. In summertime, we have a lot of troubles right now.
It is very hot, but one time they were going home again, and then
the boss called me because I am the shift steward, he called me and
say to me what he can do, all the workers want to go home.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the reason they wanted to go home?
Miss Nunez. Because it is too hot, and they need some more fans.
It is too hot in there and they can't work, so they want to go home.
At that time, they promised us in 1 hour they are going to get some
fans. So we waited the hour and they bring about four fans and
now it is a little better.
Mr. Kennedy. What about the woi'king conditions themselves,
other than being; too cold in the winter and too hot in the summer?
3786 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
What about the conditions under which you work as far as the work
that you were doing ?
Miss Nunez. Well, over there, they like to rush thg people too
much and they like to get all the orders and rush the people to
make an extra work, and then later give layoffs to the workers be-
cause they rush too much.
Mr. Kennedy. They would rush you through your work and then
there would be layoffs.
Miss Nunez. Yes. They would give layoffs.
Mr. Kennedy. What about vacation? Was there any stipulation
as to what vacation you were to receive ?
Miss Nunez. On the vacations, they would give layoffs or fire the
people before the holidays or the vacations and then they don't want
to give the vacations to the workers. That was the trouble we have
right now.
Mr. Kennedy. Just before you were to receive your vacation you
would be fired ?
Miss Nunez. No; they don't want to give the vacations. Before
they would fire you.
Mr. Kennedy. Before you would receive the vacation, you were
fired from the job?
Miss Nunez. Laid off or fired. They never called them workers
back again.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever make a protest against this union,
local 250 of the Allied Industrial Workers ?
Miss Nunez. Well, yes.
In the first time, some of the workers went on the strike. That was
the first time.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that?
Miss Nunez. That was in November 1955.
Mr. KJENNEDY. And you were striking against the union at that
time?
Miss Nunez. Yes, they were striking against the union because
they don't have no benefits, and they were tired of paying dues and
getting nothing. So they write to the National Labor Kelations
Board, but they were told that because of the contract bar rule they
can't obtain the certification election. Therefore, we have to remain
and stay in local 250.
Mr. I^NNEDY. So you had to go back and stay ?
Miss Nunez. And stay with local 250, yes. We went that way for
a few months, but we always keep complaining to the local and they
never did anything.
They would fire the people.
So one day we tried to ao something and I went to El Diario.
Mr. Kennedy. To whom?
Miss Nunez. To the Spanish paper. We need some help, so we
went to the Labor Relations Board first and they couldn't do any-
thing, so the workers went on strike, in November 1955. So they
make a strike.
The boss promised the workers 5 cents raise, so the workers come
back to work again.
That was the first strike they have.
At the next time, I was the one who started everything. I say to
you, we need some help, and I went to El Diario.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3787
Mr. Kennedy. That is the Spanish paper ?
Miss Nunez. Yes, for help.
Mr. Ejennedy. You went to them after November 1955 when you
struck against the union ?
Miss Nunez. No, that was
Mr. Ivennedy. Wait a moment. In November 1955, you went on
strike against the union ?
Miss Nunez. That was the first strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you went to the National Labor Relations
Board and they were unable to help you because of the technicality
in the law, is that right ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. So you went back to work and at that time tlie
employer gave you 5 cents an hour increase in wages ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. So you continued for awhile and then you decided,
speaking for the rest of the employees
Miss Nunez. I was the leader.
Mr. Kennedy. You were the leader and you decided to go to the
Spanish newspapers ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. I went over there and asked for help. We
made a group of about 20 persons. Jose Roman
Mr. Kennedy. Who is he, the editor ?
Miss Nunez. He is a reporter, I guess.
Mr. Kennedy. R-o-m-a-n?
Miss Nunez. Yes. He sent us to the Association of Catholic Trade
Unionists.
So we start to work the first week with small groups, and later they
introduced to us the organizer for 485. So then we have an agree-
ment with the National Labor Relations Board for elections, but we
still have to pay the dues to 362. That is what I don't understand
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. We are ahead. You had local 250 ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And then, this time, did you have any general organ-
izational meetings of the local ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. We started to have a lot of meetings.
Mr. Kennedy. No, I mean, did the miion call any, did your union,
250, the gangster union ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. They called a meeting. But that time, George
Knight and Neil Levin called a meeting, but nothing was done.
(At this point, Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently, in 1956, did they come along and
attempt to transfer you from 250 to 362 of the teamsters ?
Miss Nunez. They may call it transfers, but they never say anything
to the workers, just the company and the unions, they make the
transfers.
Mr. Kennedy. So you were transferred from local 250 ?
Miss Nunez. From local 250, yes, I was transferred to local 362 of
the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. She went to 362 of the teamsters, which originally
had no members at all, Mr. Chairman.
You will notice on the chart that the officers of 250 originally went
to 258 of the teamsters, and then they all transferred subsequently
3788 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
into 362, and brouolit the shops. You can see from the lines they
also brought some of the shons from 250 down into oG2.
You were transferred. Were you ever consulted, were the em-
ployees ever consulted, about whether they wanted to transfer to the
teamsters ?
Miss Nunez. They never say anything to us. One time Mr. Klein,
the boss, called me to his office and he told me that no one in another
local is going to represent the workers than 362, that that was the
union we were supposed to have now. That w^as when we went to
the National Labor Relations Board, and we agree that we have an
election. We win and local 485 got 106 votes.
Mr. Kennedy. We will get into that.
You were transferred to 362 ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And then you were still objecting because there
was no increase in wages, and the working conditions remained the
same ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You weren't able to have any of your grievances
processed ?
Miss Nunez. Nothing at all.
Mr. Kennedy. The older employees were still being fired ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. There was no attention paid to seniority ?
Miss Nunez. None.
Mr. Kennedy. And you could never get in touch
Miss Nunez, We were having about a year without a raise.
Mr. Kennedy. Without a raise ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And you couldn't get in touch with your union rep-
resentatives ; is that right ?
Miss Nunez. No. We used to call the local and nobody would
answer.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you decide to strike again, to try to get a differ-
ent union ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, through the suggestion of ACTU, did
you go to local 485 ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. 485 is
Miss Nunez. I went to 485 lUE-CIO.
Mr. Kennedy. You went to 485 of the lUE ?
Miss Nunez. Yes, of the CIO.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you able, then, to get permission to have a
strike and have an election in the plant ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. We have a strike. We were working with them
for 7 months, and we have on a strike, and the strike was about 5
minutes, because then the bosses agreed with the 485. After that was
when we went to the National Labor Relations Board.
Mr. Kennedy. Tlien was there an election held in June of 1957?
Miss Nunez. The election was on June 24, 1957.
Mr. Kennedy. June 24, 1957 ?
Miss Nunez. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3789
Mr. Kennedy. And tlie election was whether you would have local
362 of the teamsters, 485 of the lUE, or no union at all; is that right?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember what the election results were?
Miss Nunez. Yes. We got for 485, 106 votes.
• Mr. Kennedy. 106 votes for 485 ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. And for no union we got 1 vote, and for 362
they got nothing, the racketeers.
Mr. Kennedy. The racketeers got nothing ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. The lUE of local 485 got 106 votes, no-union vote
was 1, and local 362 of the teamsters was no vote ?
Miss Nunez. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did tlie same people that represented 250 of the
Allied Industrial Workers also represent 362 of the teamsters?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that correct ?
Miss Nunez. They were before the automobile workers, and then
with the Allied Industrial Workers, and then was the teamsters, 362.
But the same delegates were all the time in the three unions.
Mr. Kennedy. You spoke about the employer of Century Products,
that he was anxious to have you get into 250 of the Allied Industrial
Workers. What was his position toward 485 of the lUE ?
Miss Nunez. He told me that
(The witness conferred Avith her counsel.)
Mr. Persky. She wants the question repeated.
Mr. Kennedy. I was wondering about the position of the em-
ployer. Was he against you going into any other union? While he
was for you going into 250 of the Allied industrial Workers, what
was his position toward the employees going into some other union?
Miss Nunez. He called me to his office and he promised to me wage
increases or he is going to see that I am a floorlady, if I stop fighting
local 250.
Mr. Kennedy. He called you into his office and promised you an
increase in wages and told you that he would make you floorlady if
you would stop fighting local 250 ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. So I told him "No, I can't do it," because I was
representing the workers and I want to try to do something for them.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he tell you that he would close the shop?
Miss Nunez. Yes. He told me that if another local than 250 came
to the shop he was going to close the shop or he was going to move or
anything like that.
Mr. Kennedy. He was going to close the shop if any other local
came in other than 250, or he was going to move ?
Miss Nunez. Yes. One time in front of the shop I went out to the
shop, and there was Neil Levin there. I call him a racketeer, be-
cause he would just go to the company when he had to get the dues, but
he never spoke to the workers. He would always go at the time when
he would have to get the money.
INIr. Kennedy. He came in to get the dues, but he never addressed
the workers ?
Miss Nunez. Never address the workers.
3790 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. The only contact in your shop between the union
and the shop was between the employer and the union, not between
the employees and the union ?
Miss Nunez. That is it.
That day I went out, and I called him a racketeer. He was talking
with the foreman. So he say to me that I was going to be sorry for
what I was doing.
Mr. Kennedy. A^Tiat did he say to you ? This is the foreman ?
Miss Nunez. No. Neil Levin told me that. I called him a racketeer,
and I told to him how come any time he come to the shop he never
spoke to the workers, he always go to the office. I call him a racketeer,
and he say to me that I was going to be sorry for what I was doing.
But I never was afraid. I told him he was going to be sorry.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversations with the foreman
about what you were doing?
Miss Nunez. No. They used to talk to me sometimes, and they say
to me to think about what I was doing because somebody was trying to
hurt me or something like that.
Mr. Kennedy. The foreman said to you that you would be sorry
for what you were doing ?
Miss Nunez. Well, he told me, too, the same thing that Neil Levin
told me, that maybe someday somebady is going to hurt me.
The Chairman. It appears that we cannot conclude with this wit-
ness before lunch. We would probably have to run sometime longer.
Therefore, we will recess until 2 o'clock.
You will return at 2 o'clock.
The committee stands in recess.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 25 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., the same day. )
(Members present at the taking of the recess: Senators McClellan,
Kennedy, and Mundt.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee at the convening of the session:
Senators McClellan, Ives, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Senator Ives has a message he wishes to read.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I have received a telegram from one
of my constitutents which I should like to read because I think it has
a direct bearing on what we are doing, and I assume that you may
want to make a statement concerning it as chairman.
It reads as follows :
Am watching on TV iiresent proceedings Select Commission on Union Affairs.
No one asks who are the employers dealing with alleged racket-controlled unions.
Suggest you ask right after lunch today.
Well, I think the answer why that is not being clarified in each
instance is perfectly clear. I will turn this over to the chairman be-
cause I think it is more proper for him to make the answer.
TESTIMONY OF BERTHA NUNEZ, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
ROBERT S. PERSKY— Resumed
The Chairman. The witness who is testifying presently I think,
stated the name of lier employer.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3791
Did you state where you worked this morning ?
Miss Nunez. Yes.
The Chairman. I have forgotten the name of it. Wliat is the name
of the company ?
Miss Nunez. Century Products Works, Inc.
The Chairman. What do they manufacture, or what do they
produce ?
Miss Nunez. Electrical appliances.
The Chairman. You have testified here this morning that your
employer is in collusion with these union racketeers. That is what
you testified and that is the effect of your testimony. The Chair will
say that there is no disposition whatsoever on the part of any member
of this committee to withhold the name and the identity of any em-
ployer who may conspire with labor racketeers or others to deprive
working people of their rights and benefits to which they are entitled.
Now, we did have on the stand, and I wonder if he is here this morn-
ing, and it is difficult for us to remember everything that we might —
the witness, Mr. McNiff. Is he present?
We could recall him and ask him to name some of the employers.
Senator Curtis. JMr, Chairman, right in that connection, do you
know who is the head of the company for whom you work ?
Miss Nunez. I think you mean the principal in the company?
Senator Curtis. The manager or president or whoever seems to be
in charge of running things for that company.
Miss Nunez. Yes ; Mr. Sam Klein.
Senator Curtis. Will you spell the last name ?
Miss Nunez. K-1-e-i-n.
Senator Curtis. What was the first name ?
Miss Nunez. Sam, S-a-m.
The Chairman. Incidentally, I see counsel is present who was pres-
ent with Mr. McNitr this morning.
Do you have the names of any of those employers that he referred
to?
Mr. Persky. The Association of Catholic Trade Unionists will be
glad to supply the names of all of the employers mentioned in Mr.
McNitf' s statement. I am not prepared at this time to give you a
written list, but it will be forwarded to the committee.
The Chairman. The list will be received and announced, and
placed in the record. It will be received under oath just as the testi-
mony was received this morning and since he was the witness and was
sworn, let Mr. McNiff send it to us.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, in that connection, it seems to me that
the list should be made public.
The Chairman. I said I would read the list when we received it.
Senator Ives. All right.
The Chairman. I want to receive the list under oath. We do not
want to do someone an injustice when we are talking about people.
We want to have the witness under oath.
Mr. Kennedy. I might say that the ACTU organization has put
out a booklet consisting, I believe, of about 75 or 80 pages, giving
vai'ious examples of the type of thing that was discussed this morning.
It might be that you would want to make this booklet a part of the
record for reference, at least. I think it bears particularly on the
problem that we have been discussing.
3792 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. This is a pamplilet put out by the Association of
Catholic Trade Unionists. That may be made "Exhibit No. 8" for
reference.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 8" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. All right, we will proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. I think we have just about finished with Miss NunezJ
I just wanted to bring her back and thank her for coming down, and
express my appreciation for her help.
The Chairman. Is there anything further that you think of that
you might testify to that you did not tell this morning ?
Miss Nunez. No; I think that is all. I think that I am finished.
The Chairman. You think you have finished ?
Miss Nunez. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The committee thanks you very much for your
attendance and for the help you have given.
Miss Nunez. I want to thank you all myself for letting me appear
in this meeting.
The Chairman. You may stand aside.
Who is the next witness ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Mario Montalvo.
The ChairMxVN. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Montalvo. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MARIO MONTALVO, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, ROBERT S. PERSKY
The Chairman. State your name and your place of residence and
your present employment or business.
Mr. Montalvo. I was born in Puerto Rico and I came here in 1946.
The Chairman. Give your name and where you now live.
Mr. ]\Iontalvo. My name is Mario Montalvo, and I live at 60 Stan-
hope Street, Brooklyn.
The Chairman. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Montalvo. I was hired as a foreman at the Del Pen Co.
'ine chairman. The Chan- regrets to announce there is a rollcall,
and members of the committee have other duties besides holding these
hearings, and we have a duty to vote. We will take a recess for a few
minutes Imtil we can return.
(Thereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present : Senators McClellan, Ives,
and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Did you state where you are now employed ?
Mr. Montalvo. I work now at the Del Pen Co., 141 West 24th
Street, New York.
The Chairman. That is the Del— D-e-1— Penn Co., 141 West 24th
Street, New York ?
Mr. Montalvo. That is right.
The Chairman. Let the record reflect that the same counsel appears
with the witness.
That is a pen- assembly plant ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3793
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you were born in Puerto Rico. How old were
you when you came to the United States ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Twenty-one years old.
Mr. Kennedy. And wliere did you go to when you came to the
United States ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. I went to Flemington, N. J.
Mr. Kennedy. And how old are you now ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Thirty-two years old.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you moved from New Jei-sey to New York
City?
Mr. MoNTALvo. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How long ago ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Eleven years.
Mr. Kennedy. And you started working in New York City ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. In your first job in New York City, how much were
you making then ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. $83.60.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money are you making now ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. $58 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, from October 15, 1956, to about December 25,
1 956, were you employed l
Mr. MoNTAEVO. I was woi-king at Miro Pen Co., 561 Broadway, New
York City.
Mr. Kennedy. "What did they make there ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. All writing instruments.
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees or how many workers were
there ?
Mr. MoNTALvo, About 160 people.
Mr. Kennedy. And were most of them Puerto Rican extraction ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. About 45 percent, and the rest Negro.
Mr. Kennedy. And the rest of them were Negro ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. About 45 percent were Puerto Rican, and the rest of
them were Negro ; is that right I
Mr. MoNTAi.vo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You were hired at that job as a foreman ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were hired at $60 a week ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Now was there a union at that shop when you came
to work ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes ; Local 250 of the Allied Industrial Workers.
JNIr. Kennedy. JNIr. Chairman, that is one of the unions that we were
interested in, and it was formed by Mr. Johnny Dio in October 14,
1952.
Now, what was the average pay of the employees at the shop ?
Mr. AIoNTALVo. About 90 percent, $40 a week, $1 an hour.
Mr. Kennedy. $1 an hour I
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you learn how the shop became organized?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes. I learned from a steward.
89330 — 57 — pt. 10 14
3794 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. The shop steward told you how it was organized?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Yes, sir. One day James Iscola came into the sliop.
Mr. Kennedy. He was the organizer for local 250?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir, and he went into the office and spoke with
the bosses.
Mr. Kennedy. That was Mr. Morgan ?
Mr, MoNTALVo. Yes, sir, and there was a conference for about three-
quarters of an hour, and then later he called one of the workere,
Johnny, and he told him, "There is a union in the shop."' He gave
a local 250 card, and a working paper, and they signed cards and
working hours.
Mr. Kennedy. So the employer received the cards from the union
organizer, Iscola, and then came out and had the cards distributed
among the workers and told them that there was a union going to be
in the shop now, and that they were all to sign the cards. Is that
right?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How much was the initiation fee of the union?
Mr. MoNTALVO. $10 initiation fee.
Mr. Kennedy. And how much was the dues ?
Mr, iSIoNTALvo. $1 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. Did everybody have to pay the initiation fee and
the dues ?
Mr. Montalvo. No. Some workers did not have to join the union.
Mr. Kennedy. The favorites of the boss, special employees, they
did not have to pay the initiation fee or the dues; is that right?
Mr. Montalvo. That is right.
Senator Ives. May I ask a question? Was your employer in any
way involved in this?
Mr. JMontaevo. Will you repeat the question again, please?
(The witness consulted with his counsel.)
Mr, Montalvo. Yes,
Senator Ives. Did he make the deal himself ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes.
Senator Ives, He made the deal, your employer?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes.
Senator Ives. He made you join, that is it, your employer?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives, I am talking about your boss. He is the one who made
the deal for you with the union ? Your boss made the deal ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes.
Senator I^-es. And you had a checkoff, did you? You had your
dues deducted from your pay by your employer, by your boss ?
Mr. Montalvo, Well, I never joined the union.
Senator I\tes, You never joined?
Mr, Montalvo, Because I was a foreman.
Senator Ives. You were the foreman ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. How about the members of the union? Do you know
about them ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes ; the members of the union, they had to join.
Senator Ives. But what I am driving at is, did they have their dues
taken out of their pay ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes ; that is right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3795
Senator Ives. Before they got their pay ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. That was all agreed and arranged by the boss who
made you join the union, and made them join the union ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. That is right.
Senator Ives. What is the boss' name ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Mr. Morgan and Mr. Isadore.
Mr. Persky. There are two individuals involved. The first one's
name is Mr. Morgan and the witness has said that the other one he
calls Mr. Isadore, but does not know his last name.
Senator Ives. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kennedy. The contract was signed between your boss and the
union, and did you ever see a copy of the contract?
Mr. MoNTALvo. One time I asked the boss for the contract and he
told me he didn't have it.
Mr. Kennedy. What is that again ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. I asked him about the contract and he told me that
he didn't have it.
Mr. Kennedy. You asked him for the contract and he told you that
he did not even have it ; is that right ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did any union official ever come in and talk to the
employees ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Never any unionman came around to talk to the
workers.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any idea, or did you learn what the
terms of the contract were ?
Mr. MoNTALvo, Well, when Mr. Iscola came last summer, in 1956, he
told the workers there were to be three paid holidays.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did you learn any of the other terms of the
contract?
Mr. MoNTALvo. No.
jNIr. Kennedy. Did you learn that there were any health or welfare
benelits ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. There were no health or welfare benefits?
Mr. MoNTALvo. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any process for serving your grievances?
Mr. MoNTALvo. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Nothing like that. Was there any procedure for
seniority ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. None. The boss was able to fire people anytime
tliey want.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there ever any general meetings of the mem-
bers of the union ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. No meetings.
Mr. Kennedy. When you say that the employer was free to fire
any of the employees that he wished, did that ever happen, that he
fired employees who had worked there a long period of time?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any personal knowledge of that?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you as a foreman, were you ever instruated to
fire anyone?
3796 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir. Every day they gave orders to fire people
without any reason, just because they figured out they were smart
men and hiter on they could make trouble.
Mr. Kennedy. You say tliat he would have you fire the smart
people in the plant who would make trouble for him?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you would be forced to fire them; is that right?
Mr. MoNTALv-). Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever protest against this ?
Mr. IVIoNTALVo. Yes, 1 day I went on strike against them.
Mr. Kennedy. You led a strike against this ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And what happened then, how long did the strike
last?
Mr. MoNTALVo. About S^/^ hours, not even that long. About 3 or 4
hours.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you picket the shop ?
Mr. McNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did your signs say ?
Mr. MoNTALVo (quoting) :
This is a racket shop, local 250 is Die's local. Racket local must be destroyed.
Mr. Kennedy. You had another sign saying —
Racket locals must be destroyed?
Mr. MoNTALvo. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you walked up and down in front of your shop
with that ?
Mr. McNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So you were striking against your own union; is
that right ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And what did the employer say to you then? Did
he say he would give you better wages ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Well, for some people, for about 90 percent they got
a $2 increase.
Mr. Kennedy. After you went on strike against your own union ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir; and 10 percent of the employees got a $4
increase.
Mr. Kennedy. And then you got more paid holidays ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Six paid holidays.
Mr. Kennedy. So you received six paid holidays ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. And the union dues were paid by the boss.
Mr. Kennedy. Did any officer of your local 250 appear at the picket
line, when you were picketing?
Mr. MoNTALvo. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, subsequently, after you led this strike against
local 250, in the shop and the deal that had been made between the two,
was your employment terminated and were you fired by your boss?
Mr. McNTALVo. Yes; 3 or 4 days before Christmas of 1956. He
called me into the office and there was a policeman there. He told me
because I don't trust the company and they don't trust me, I would
have to leave.
Mr. Kennedy. He said to you, because you did not trust the com-
pany and the company did not trust you, you would have to leave.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3797
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So did you leave then ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. They paid me off and the policeman escorted me out
of the shop.
Mr. Kennedy. The policeman escorted you out of the shop ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then did you go to work for the Del Pen Co., at 141
West 24th Streets
Mr. MoNTALvo. No ; I went to work at that company the last week
of February of 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. In February after you left this other employment,
you went to work in February of 1957 for the Del Pen Co. ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. That is ri|rht.
Mr. Kennedy. 141 West 24th Street, New York ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Tliatisapenassembly plant; is that right?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How many workers are employed there ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Fifteen employees.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the average pay at that time ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. $40 to $42 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. And was the ])lant organized at the time that you
came to work for them in February of 1957 ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. W^as there any attempt to organize the plant ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes ; on June 4, 1957, Mr. Iscola.
Mr. Kennedy. The same one who had come from local 250 ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir, and he went into the office and as soon as I
saw him I recognized him, that he was for local 250.
Mr. Kennedy. When you saw him come into the plant, he went into
your boss' office and you recognized him as the same man that had
represented local 250 ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. That is right and this time he was representing
local 362 of the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Once again local 362 is one of the teamster paper
locals, and the shops of 250 ultimatelv came down into local 362 in
June of 1956.
Now, what did you say or what did you do at that time ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Well, the Del Pen Co. boss called three workers
into the office and he told them he got a union for them and so he gave
a card to us to sign, but they refused to sign the card.
Mr. Kennedy. They refused ? He brought them into the office and
said he had a union for them to sign up with and they said, "We don't
want to sign now. Why don't they call you into the office ? "
So were you called in then ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. At that time I was working in the shop.
Mr. Kennedy. He brought Mr. Iscola out into the plant and intro-
duced him to all of the employees?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then did Mr. Iscola speak to you ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. When he started to talk to the workers, I told him
he is a racketeer.
Mr. Kennedy. You told him he was a racketeer ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes.
3798 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. You said they were all racketeers ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make that statement in front of your fellow
employees ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. When Iscola was speaking to them ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say about that ?
Mr. Montalvo. He didn't say he was a racketeer and he negotiated
a contract with the boss.
Mr. IvENNEDY. He said what?
Mr. Montalvo. He could help us to sign a contract with the boss.
Mr. Kennedy. He could tell the boss to sign a contract ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir ; I don't let no workers sign the card.
Mr. Kennedy. You would not let any of your fellow employees
sign the cards for local 362 ?
Mr. Montalvo. I called him a racketeer, and I went back to work.
Senator Curtis. May I ask, was your boss present during this
conversation ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes.
Senator Curtis. He heard you call this union leader a racketeer
twice ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Is there any union at Del Pen now ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, now is Local 485 of the lUE.
Mr. Kennedy. How did they come into your plant ?
Mr. Montalvo. Well, the same night we no sign for the local 362
and I went to the Catholic Association.
Mr. Kennedy. The Association of Catholic Trade Unionists?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you had a talk with them ?
Mr. Montalvo. I explained to them what happened, and we set
a meeting for the next evening with all of the workers for 485.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you arrange a strike of your fellow employees?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, 5i/^ hours.
Mr. Kennedy. You went out on strike for 5^4 hours ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. In order to become members of local 485 of the
lUE?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that successful?
Mr. Montalvo. We struck the shop for 5% hours and then we were
recognized.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Felder — was he one of your employers ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He was the employer there ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he attempt to prevent you or dissuade you from
joining up with 485 of the lUE?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes. After the strike he called me into the office
after work and he told me he would give me $100 and a steady job
for life.
Mr. Kennedy. He said if you would not join 485 he would give
you $100 a week and a steady job for life?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3799
Mr. MoNTALvo. For life, if I talked to the other workers to throw
out support of 485 and make them join the union, 362.
Mr. Kennedy. If you would tell the workers to join local 362 of
the teamsters and not to join local 485 of the electrical workers he
would give you a job, $100 a week, and the job would last for life;
is that right ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. What did you say to him ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. No. I said I am not a doublecrosser.
Mr. Kennedy. You are not a doublecrosser ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, 485 of the lUE is there at the present time?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir ; that is right.
Mr. Kj:nnedy. Of the employees there, you have about 13 employees
there.
Mr. Montalvo. Now it is 7.
Mr. Kennedy. How many of them are Puerto Rican ?
Mr. Montalvo. Six.
Mr. Kennedy. Six out of the seven ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir, and the other is a Negro.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
Senator Ives. I would like to ask the witness a question regarding
any boss he ever had.
Do you know whether any of the bosses you ever had starting with
the first one, who was Morgan — was that his name ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Do you know whether they paid any money to the
leaders of these so-called unions ?
Mr. Montalvo. I don't know.
Senator Ives. You don't know anything about any of that, and
you never heard anything of that kind ; did you ?
Mr. Montalvo. No.
Senator Ives. Thank you.
The Chairman. What I would like to inquire about, did the union
ever perform any service for the working people at those plants? I
am talking about the first one, the first one from which you got fired.
You got fired where you were working, sometime about Christmas?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You were a foreman and you were not a member
of the union ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As a foreman, you had the opportunity to observe
and to know if the union performed any service for the working
people ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did it perform any service? Did the union then
help the workers get any benefits whatsoever ?
Mr. Montalvo. The union never obtained anything for any of
the workers.
The Chairman. Did they ever come around to see about their
working conditions or make any effort to get them an increase in
wages ; or do anything ?
Mr. Montalvo. Never.
The Chairman. You have been in New York some 11 years ?
3800 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You worked at different places ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I assume you know a lot of the people from your
own country.
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know where they work ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You visit with them ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know of any of them that get any real
protection from these racketeer unions ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes ; but right now in the Duro Pen Co, they have
the same union.
The Chairman. They have what ?
Mr. Montalvo. The same union, and before they have 250, Allied
Industrial Workers, and now they have the local 362 of the teamsters.
The Chairman. They have local 362?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. They have been able to get some benetits? How
recently was that ?
Mr. Pi:RSKy. The witness misunderstood your question, and he
would like to make a statement.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Montalvo. No, they have no benefits. They have no benefits
at Duro Pen.
Mr. Persky. He thought you were asking for similar situations
and you were asking for situations which were dissimilar, and he
did not understand that.
The Chairman. What I am trying to find out, is this a general
practice up there with respect particularly to your people, and the
Negroes wlio work in the same plants? In other words, they are
pretty much forced to join a union, and your boss or the management
simply puts you in a union, and tells you you have got to join, and
yet you get no benefits from it ?
Mr. Montalvo. When anybody has to join the union, they always
took the initiation fees.
The Chairman. I understand they took the initiation fees, but
they were told they had to join the union by their boss.
Mr. Montalvo. By the boss, surely.
The Chairman. And then after they once joined and paid their
dues, the union gave them no service and did not help them in any
way, is that correct?
Mr. Montalvo. No, sir.
The Chairman. You got no help from them?
Mr. Montalvo. The union was no help. They did nothing for us
in the plant.
Senator Imss. 1 would like to ask the witness a question, following
up what you are talking about.
You understand the word "rackets," don't you ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. You know what a racket is ?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACnVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3801
Senator Ives. Are most of the unions where your friends, the Puerto
Ricans, work, and I am also talking about the colored people in the
area of New York City where you live, are most of the unions where
they work run bv the rackets? Are they racket unions, about all of
them ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Not everybody.
Senator I\'es. Not everybody, no, but how many would you say, or
how large a percentage?
Mr. MoNTALvo. I think about 90 percent.
Senator Ives. 90 percent?
Mr. MoNTALvo. About 90 percent; yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Are run by the rackets ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Were the Puerto Ricans and the Negroes in that area
of New York ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. That is a pretty serious situation then, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. MoNTALVO. I could point out many places in New York.
Senator Curtis. How many years has this bad situation existed ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Well, for about 3 or 4 years.
Senator Curtis. Now, in some of these companies, the bosses were
willing to enter into such an arrangement because it gave them an op-
portunity to exploit labor, is that correct ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, that is right.
Senator Curtis. Were there some instances where the union leaders
used methods of violence or intimidation, or to incite fear in order
to deal both with the employees and management ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes, but they never shared with the workers.
Senator Curtis. Do you know whether they used threats and intimi-
dation and violence in any of their acts, regardless of who they dealt
with ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. I don't understand.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. MoNTALvo. Yes.
Senator Curtis. There was some of that?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever have any trouble with union leaders
yourself ? I mean did they cause you any trouble ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Well, at the Duro Pen factory.
Senator Curtis. Wliat happened ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. The local 250 was trying to raid the shop but I was
there as a foreman also, and so when the official came around, he was
trying to organize the shop, I don't let nobody sign the cards, and so
that evening he called the boss after dinner and after dinner the boss
came over to me and explained to me what was happening. He said
he would like to put the union into the shop, but I told him, as long as
he gives the bonetits, he was given vacations with pay, he treated good
the people, I didn't think the people wanted a union.
So the boss paid attention to me, and so he don't let nobody sign the
cards, and he stopped signing the cards.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Counsel, I didn't quite understand that.
Mr. Persky. The w^itness has told you of an instance where he
talked the boss out of letting the union 250 get into his shop, by the
3802 IMPROPER AcnvrriES m the labor field
argument that "Mr. Employer, the benefits you give us now are
better than those we would get with local 250."
Senator Curtis. In that case, the boss agreed with you?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And quit doing business with that union leader?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What was that boss' name ?
Mr. MoNTALvo. Mr. Beline.
Senator Curtis. What was the name of the company ?
Mr. MoNTALVo. Duro Pen Co.
Senator Curtis. How long did you work there ?
Mr. MoNTALVO. Seven or eight months.
Senator Curtis. Now, this situation of corruption and wrongdoing
and racket unions that you said has existed for 3 or 4 years, is that
pretty generally known by everybody that you see ?
Counsel, would you explain to him, if you wish.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Montalvo. Well, there is a Spanish paper, and they read about
the racketeering, and now they know a little bit. I know most of
them, about 30 or 35 percent of them have lost their job because they
don't speak English, and so how can they live and work.
Senator Curtis. The things you have been telling us about here
are quite generally known by many, many people, is that right?
Mr. Montalvo. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Thank you very much. You may stand aside.
Mr. Montalvo. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Samuel Conoval.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL CONOVAL
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, please.
Mr. CoNOVAL. My name is Samuel Conoval. I live at 139-10 28th
Eoad, Flushing, Long Island. The company name is Carnival
Spraying Co., Inc., of which I am the president.
The Chairman. That is your company?
Mr. CoNovAL. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you talked to members of the staff regarding
your testimony?
Mr. Conoval. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You waive the right to have counsel present?
Mr. CoNGVAL. I have spoken to my counsel, and he doesn't tliiuk
it is necessary for him to appear here.
The Chairman. You have taken his advice ?
Mr. Conoval. That is right.
The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Conoval, you run the Carnival Spraying Co.,
Inc.?
^ ^^fer EvtPROPE'R ACTivmE'S en the labor field 3803
Mr. CoNOVAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is at 144 West 27th Street ?
Mr. CoNovAL. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You do commercial spraying of enamel and lacquers
and small objects ?
Mr. CoNovAL. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You also do work for the United States Government
on a subcontract basis ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees do you have ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Steady employees ? I have 14.
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees working in your shop?
Mr. CoNovAL. Eight now I have about 20.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have a contract with any union ?
Mr. CoNovAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What union ?
Mr.CoNovAL. It used to be 649. It is 269.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, 649 was the first one formed by Mr.
Dio, and then these paper locals were form.ed, and the shops from 649
went into 258. Davidoff brought his shops down to 258, and Curcio
brought his to 269.
Do you have a contract with the teamsters ?
Mr. CoNovAL. Yes, sir. Mr. Dunne has it.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1951, or so, were you approached by a union or-
ganizer from 649 ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. At that time it was 102.
Mr. Kennedy. Local 102, and it became 649 subsequently ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the local that was formed by Johnny Dio.
You were approached by Benny the Bug Ross, were you ?
Mr. Conoval. I knew him as Benny Ross.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, he is Benny the Bug.
Mr. Conoval. So I found that out.
Mr. Kennedy. He came up and approached you about signing up
your shop ?
Mr. Conoval. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you enter a contract with him at that time ?
Mr. Conoval. Not immediately.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do?
Mr. Conoval. At first he wanted all the people, and naturally I
refused.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't want him to talk to the people ?
Mr. Conoval. No; I didn't say I didn't want him to talk to the
people.
Senator Curtis. Do you mean by that he wanted you to put all the
people in the union ?
Mr. Conoval. That is right.
Senator Curtis. That you do it and not the workers joining?
Mr. Conoval. That is right ; I refused.
Then we started discussing, and then he wanted at least 7 or 8
names regardless of who it is, as long as they are on the corporation
books.
Mr. Kennedy. He wanted 7 or 8 names of employees ?
Mr. Conoval. That is right.
3804 IMPEOPER ACTIVITIElS EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And for you to make a contract with him, with the
union that he represented, with the understanding that you would
pay dues for 7 or 8 employees ; is that right ?
Mr. CoxovAL. Correction. Not that I should pay dues. He wanted
names of 7 or 8 people on the books to belong to the union.
Mr. Kennedy. So that the corporation. Carnival Spraying Co.,
Inc., would pay money
Mr. CoNOVAL. Incorrect.
Mr. Kennedy. All right. You tell me.
Mr. CoNOVAL. He wanted me to give him so many names to be un-
ion members. They shall pay the clues. I would get cards for them
to sign, allowing me to deduct from their pay once a month. At
that time I think it was $3.50 a month dues.
Mr. Kennedy. So what happened ? And plus the welfare ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Plus the welfare.
Mr. Kennedy. How much was that to be, the welfare ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. The welfare? I am not sure what it was. I think
it was $8 or $5 at that time. I think it was $5 at that time.
Mr. Kennedy . That was to be paid every month ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently you decided that you would pay the
money out of corporation funds ?
Mr. CoNovAL. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do ?
Mr. CoNovAL. 1 put my self in the union because I was a working
employee at that time, my expartner, my wife, my sister, who is in
the employee, and three steady employees.
Mr. Kennedy. You put them all in the union ?
Mr. CoNovAL. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did "Beimy the Bug" ever talk to the employees?
]Mr. CoNovAL. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. . But you became a union shop, did you not?
Mr. CoNOVAL. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You became a union shop because you, your wife,
your sister, your treasurer, and three of your employes, you sent their
names into the union, and every month you Avould take from the cor-
poration funds
Mr. CoNOVAL. Not from the corporation funds,
Mr. Kennedy. '\'\niere would you take the money from ?
Mr. CoNOvAL. Right from their pay envelopes, which they signed
for me to take out.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that checked out, substituted, or deducted from
your salary ?
Mr. CoNOVAE. It was deducted from the salary. The way they
used to make out the pay envelope there would be gross pay less deduc-
tions for the Federal Government, social security, unemployment, net
pay, and from that was deducted the union dues.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you take the money out? Did you take
the money out in cash, or how ?
Mr. CoNovAL. I used to take it out cash and redeposit it back — no..
I used to write on the pay envelope less that, when I used to make out
a check, and the check showed, on the stub, less union dues.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you mean the stub where you paid yourself ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3805
Mr. CoNOVAL. No. The stub in the checkbook, when I took out a
payroll check, "Less union dues."
Mr. Kennedy. And you would deduct it at that time ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And your sister worked there at that time?
Mr. CoNOVAL. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So you became a union shop, then, did you not?
Mr. CoNOVAL. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So if any other union came around and tried to
organize you, you could say, "I am already a member of a union" ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And you would have these deductions which you
would make each month ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Were the employers ever consulted as to whether
they wanted this union to represent them ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I spoke to them.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they vote to find out ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Well, they were willing to go along. There was no
such thing as a regular vote. I asked them if they wanted to, and
they went along with it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a meeting of all of your employees as
is required under the Taft-Hartley Act ?
Mr. Conoval. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a meeting to find out whether they
wanted local 102, Johnny Dio's local, to represent them as a bargain-
ing agent ?
Mr. Conoval, No ; that I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not?
Mr. Conoval. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. How many of your employees, besides yourself,
your partner, and sister, were put into the union ?
Mr. Conoval. At that time or now?
Senator Curtis. At that time.
Mr. Conoval. At that time ? Three.
Senator Curtis. Hoav many did you have in total ?
Mr. Conoval. At that time, well, they were transient help. They
stood a week or 2 weeks, back and forth. Nobody was ever steady
employed. The only ones that were steady were the three, and they
were in the union.
Senator Curtis. And those that you said you talked to, to see if
they would go along with this union idea, you are referring just to
those who became members of the union ?
Mr. Conoval. That was at that time. At this time, I went over to
everyone of my steady workers that has been with me for quite awhile,
and I asked them if they want a union and they said "Yes." I asked
them if they are satisfied with this or with any other.
Personally, I don't think they cared, so we wind up with this one.
I figured that was the lesser of the two evils.
Senator Curtis. Did you gain anything as an employer by signing
up with this Benny Ross and his union ?
Mr. Conoval. In which way do you mean that ?
Senator Curtis. Did you gain any advantage as an employer by
signing up with Ross ?
3806 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. CoNovAL. No ; I don't see that I gained any advantage.
Senator Curtis. What compelled you to do it?
Mr. CoNovAi.. Well, for one simple reason, the only thing that com-
pelled me to do it was if we didn't sign up at once, then somebody
else would be around. Then they would stop you on the street, to get
you to sign up. They would cause you some inconvenience.
Senator Curtis. In other words, by stopping you on the street or
causing you inconvenience, you are referring to these union officers,
not the employees in your own plant?
Mr. CoNovAL. No ; I don't say union officers stopping me directly,
but stopping me from making deliveries to union shops and stuff like
that, which causes a lot of inconvenience for a businessman.
Senator Curtis. And because of that is M^hy yo.u sisrned up with
Ross?
Mr. CoNOVAL. It would either have been Ross or somebody else, if
I could have gotten a fair enough contract.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Senator Ives. In connection with these union officers j^ou are talk-
ing about, I would like to inquire whether you are speaking of legiti-
mate union officers, representing legitimate unions, or this racketeer
gang. We all know by this time that "Benny the Bug" is one of the
racketeers, one of the gangsters. You apparently at that time didn't
know it, did you ?
Mv. CoNovAL. At that time I did not know.
Senator Ives. Why are you talking about these union officers or
union organizers stopping you on the street ? Are they representing
good unions?
Mr. CoNovAL. I wouldn't be the judge to tell you which is good and
which is bad.
Senator I\t^:s. Don't you think it would be up to you to clieck and
find out wliat they were ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. HoAv do you go about that ?
Senator Ives. There is such a thing as the National Labor Relations
Board, and it has offices in New York City. Is that not where you
are located ?
Mr. CoNovAL. That is right.
Senator Ivrh. There is a teleplione book up here. You can go
around there and inquire and find out.
Mr. CoNovAL. All that is good and well, but, don't forget, when
you are a small-business man and you have to do a lot of your own
work, and yoii have a lot of other things to think about, you will grasp
at the first thing tliat comes along that looks best to yourself.
Senator Ives. Just a minute on that. You must liave had some idea
when they were trying to organize you on this kind of a basis that
there was something funny about it.
Did it not ever occur to you that there was something peculiar
about it?
Mr. CoNovAL. Well, that is true ; it did seem a little peculiar.
Senator In-es. It is most peculiar. I would have thouglit that the
natural thing for you to have done would be either to go to the Na-
tional I^abor Relations Board office in New York, the regional office
there, or the State labor- relations board there, and find out what the
story was. They could tell you in a hurry. I think if the employers
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3807
that are being victimized by this kind of business had used the com-
monsense that the Lord gave them in a lot of these cases a great deal
of this could have been avoided.
I do not think all the employers that are involved in this business
are dishonest. I think they are scared to death. I do not think they
used the weapons that they had at their command. I do not think
you followed the course you could have followed.
That is one of the things that has to be done if we are ever going
to straighten this thing out.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Are you still unionized ?
Mr. CoNovAL. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In the same union ?
Mr. CoNovAL. 269.
The Chairman. In 269 ?
Mr, CoNovAL. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are all of your employees now members of the
union ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Everyone, every one of my employees is a member.
Tlie Chairman. Everyone is now a member.
When did you get the rest of them in the union ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I think that was 1956, I think it was.
The Chairman. Was it after this committee started investigating?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I don't know if it was after or before, because I don't
know when you started investigating.
The Chairman. We have been investigating, not this committee but
the Permanent Subcommittee of the Government Operations Com-
mittee started an investigation, in this New York area more than a
year ago. It was nearly 2 years ago.
What happened that caused all of j^our people to join the union?
Mr. Conoval. Well, because all the people joined the union I tigured
this way, as long as I am paying them more than the union requires,
and I give them more holidays than the union requires, what difi'erence
does it make to me if they are in a union or not, as long as they get some
benefit out of it.
The Chairman. Do you have a contract with the union?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I certainly do.
The Chairman. Do tlie employees know about it ?
Mr. Conoval. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you have a contract when you first signed up,
the seven or whatever number it was ?
Mr. CoNovAL. Yes, sir.
The Chair3ian. You liad a contract then ?
Mr. Conoval. That is right.
The Cjiairman. Do the members of your union approve the con-
tract or do you just approve it?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I told them what it was all about, and they seemed to
be satisfied.
The Chair:man. They took no vote on it?
Mr. Conoval. There was no such thing as a vote.
The Chairman. I did not understand you.
Mr. CoNovAL. There was no such thing as a vote.
The Chairman. What I mean is you made the contract with the
labor union.
3808 IMPROPER ACTIVITIElS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. CoNOVAL. I made a contract after I spoke to the employees, if
they wanted it.
The Chairman. Which were you representing, yourself or the
employees ?
Mr. CoNovAL. Well, eventually I was looking for myself, too, as
well as the employees.
The Chairman. You are representing both sides ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. That is right.
The Chairman. And they did not have much to say about it ; did
they?
Mr. CoNOVAL. No ; it is not that. If they don't want a union, I don't
have to have a union.
The Chairman. I understand. But the employees who you signed
up, when you first did, did not have a chance, were given no oppor-
tunity, to vote on approving or disapproving the contract that you
entered into?
Mr. CoNOVAL. They had every chance in the world.
The Chairman. What chance did they have ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. At that time when I approached them about joining
the union, there was other people downstairs trying to organize one
of the other floors and they were stopping all of my employees to find
out whether they wanted to join the union. They told them to drop.
The Chairman. My understanding is that the proper practice with
a legitimate union, once it makes a contract with the employer, is that
it submits that contract to the union members and they vote to approve
or disapprove it.
Mr. CoNovAL. As far as my employees are concerned, they were all
for it.
The Chairman. Sir?
Mr. CoNOVAL. As far as the employees are concerned, they were all
for it.
As far as I know, as far as they told me.
The Chairman. As far as you know.
Mr. CoNovAL. That is right.
The Chairman. But, again, I think the procedure that is being
followed is very much out of line. I think the people who do tlie
work should have an opportunity to approve or disapprove the
contract.
Is there anything further?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
I just want to get back to this time that Benny the Bug came in from
local 102. It is not just a question of a racketeer union coming in.
You had some employees in your plant, and it was a question of what
union they were going to sign up with.
Once you signed with local 102, it prevented other unions from com-
ing in there. So it was a distinct advantage to you.
I would like to go through the terms of the contract. Did tlie
employees get any better terms once you had signed a contract with
local 102?
Mr. CoNOVAL. At 102?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. CoNuvAL. Well, I don't remember what the contract actually
read risfht now
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3809
Mr. Kennedy. In the first place, look at the facts. Yoii did not
talk to any of the employees at the time ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Not at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. You presented 7 or 8 names, including your own
name, who owned the shop, your wife's name, your partner's name,
secretary-treasurer, your sister's name and 2 or 3 other employees;
is that correct ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. None of the other employees in the plant were even
consulted as to whether they wanted, to belong to this union ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You signed a contract which provided for the
minimum legal wage ; isn't that right ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So the employees got no advantage that way. The
same vacation and holiday provisions as had existed before; isn't that
right?
Well, actually, there was a great advantage for you, no advantage
for your employees, there was a great advantage for you because
when you were walking down the street or when you Avere trying to
make deliveries, nobody would stop the deliveries because you were
now a union shop, and you had made this sweetheart contract with
local 102, which was to the detriment of your employees, to j^our
workers.
Mr. Conoval. There is one more thing. Even if the union called
for a 5-cent increase after the signing of a contract, I never gave an
employee a 5-cent increase. It was always a minimum of $5 per
week. I don't wait for a union to tell me when to give or how to
give it. I give it when the employee deserves it.
Mr. Kennedy. The union provided no services and you knew at
the time you signed this contract you were not being imposed upon.
You knew at the time that you signed this contract that your employees
were getting no advantage out of it.
Mr. Conoval. You're right.
Mr. Kennedy. All right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. I would like to raise a question which I do not
think this witness can answer, but I am prompted by Senator Ives'
statement.
Does the National Labor Relations Board maintain lists of racketeer
and nonlegitimate unions? Is that information available for both
workers and management?
Senator I^^s. Are you asking me ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Senator Ives. I will answer that.
No ; I do not think they do, as far as that is concerned. Senator, but
what they could tell tlie gentleman is how to have his plant organized
from the standpoint of his employees. Tliat is the thing about which
I was talking to him.
What he was doing here is having them organized in a very dubious
manner. He, himself, admits that it sounds funny and it sounds funny
to me. It is that procedure itself that should have made him suspi-
89330— 57— pt. 10 — —15
3810 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
cious SO that he should have gone around to either the State Labor
Relations Board, or the regional board of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board and found out about it.
That could have helped him decide what to do.
Senator Curtis. But I take the position that management should
not do the organizing in their plant.
Senator Ives. That is not the point. I think management has the
responsibility when it comes to these things, when the approach is
made in this manner. I do not think there is any question about
that. I am not talking about management doing the organizing.
Senator Cuktis. I believe they could furnish the information that
the workers were being taken advantage of by racketeers and that
would not be an unfair labor practice.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions?
Mr. Kennedy. "Wliat kinds of employees do you have?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I have both Puerto Ricans and colored.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that we have
made a study of Mr. ConovaPs records, the payroll records, and they
show no checkoffs for any of these dues being paid during this period
of time.
The only conclusion we can reach from a study of the payroll rec-
ords is that the money was taken out each month from the corporation
funds and paid as a tribute to the union each month.
Mr, CoNOVAL. As far as the checkoff is concerned, the first time I
misunderstood what the word checkoff meant. As far as money taken
out of corporation funds, it is not taken out of corporation funds. It
is deducted off the emplo3'ees' payrolls, for which they sign cards
alloAving me.
IVIr. Kennedy. That might be the present situation, but the situation
when you originally signed up
Mr. CoNOVAL. At all times that was the situation.
Mr. Kennedy. Your payroll records do not indicate that. They
indicate that you got the full amount of your salary and that there
was no deduction for the payment to the union.
Mr. CoNOVAL. At all times it was deducted. At that time I wasn't
taking care of the books. I was only taking care of the payrolls.
My partner took care of the books. But I know the payroll was
always deducted because the employees signed cards authorizing me
to deduct from their pay. Cards are in Mr. Dunne's possession
now.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, in addition, from an examination
of the records, it indicates that this company paid some $6,000 to
this local, first local 102, then 649, over this period of time.
Mr. CoNOVAL. $6,000 for what ?
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, since you have been
signed up with them.
Mr. CoNovAL. For dues and welfare.
Mr. Kennedy. Has anybody ever received any benefit from the
welfare?
Mr. CoNovAL. My wife received it once when she gave birth. As
far as anybody else, I wouldn't know because they wouldn't approach
me for that.
Mr. Kennedy. But vou do not know of anything else ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Not that I know.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3811
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever taken an ad in local 649's journal?
Mr. CoNOVAL. Three times. Twice it was $25 and last June it
was for $50.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it just because you like the local ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. No ; it is not because I have any particular love for
them, but I take ads in a lot of magazines. It is good for advertising.
The Chairman. If I understand your testimony correctly, all the
money that you have given this union, paid to it, all of that money
you \Yithheld from the salaries or the wages of your employees?
Mr. CoNOVAL. That is correct.
The Chairman. All of it, whether it was $6,000 or what ?
Mr. CoNovAL. Whatever was paid to the union, that was taken out
for dues and welfare which we agreed upon.
The Chairman. How did you enter that deduction on your ledger
books ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I don't know how they got that deduction.
The Chairman. You do not know what ?
Mr. CoNOVAL. I say I don't know how they have the deduction
of $6,000.
The Chairman. I guess they totaled up some figures. The point
I am making is, Did you show on your books that you kept that this
money was withheld from the wages of your employees?
Mr. CoNovAL. Whatever deductions were on the books is legitimate
deductions. Whatever deductions — when they came into my office, I
gave them free wheel of the office. I haven't got nothing to hide
whatsoever. Whatever deductions they made, whatever figures they
took from my books, is not to my knowledge. They didn't tell me.
They asked to see my books. I said, ''Fine, see it." I cooperated
with them 100 percent. What figures they arrived at, I don't know.
They didn't present the figures to me. This is the first time I heard of
these figures.
The Chairman. It is quite probable that with the payroll that you
have, during that period of time you have paid $6,000 into the union.
Mr. CoNOVAL. The only way they could figure what I paid to the
union is from canceled checks for welfare and dues. If that is what
the checks say, they can very easily look at the books and see if that
was coming to them.
The Chairman. I can understand that they can take your canceled
checks and see what you paid into the union. But the only thing at
issue here is that you say you deducted it from their wages.
It seems to me that that deduction would appear on your books.
Mr. CoNovAL. That certainly would.
Mr. Kennedy. It does not appear on the payroll records that any
money was deducted until recently, until this year, after the Senate
Subcommittee on Investigations began their investigation in New
Yoi'k of these locals.
The Chairman. We can check that further.
Are there other questions ?
If not, you may stand aside.
Call the next witness.
(Members present at this point: Senators McClellan, Ives, and
Curtis.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Sidney Chernuchin.
He is another employee in New York City.
3812 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Chernuchin. I do, Senator.
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY CHERNUCHIN, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, ABKAHAM H. STEINBERG
Tlie Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Chernuchin. My name is Sidney Chernuchin, 610 West End
Avenue, New York City. I am a belt manufacturer. The name of
the concern is All-Rite Belt Co.
The Chairman. You are the owner of this company ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Well, it is a corporation.
The Chairman. It is a corporation ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes.
The Chairman. You are one of the principal stockholders?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you manage it ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have counsel with you ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Would you identify yourself ?
Mr. Steinberg. Abraham H. Steinberg, practicing in the State of
New York, 551 Fifth Avenue, New York City.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chernuchin, you are the principal stockholder,
are you, in this garment organization ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Half, yes.
Mr. KJENNEDY. There are 4 or 5 different companies involved in
it?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You have a contract or you had a contract with local
258of theUAW?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, I had and have.
Mr. Kennedy. You still have it ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is 258 of the teamsters, is that right?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. ICennedy. You have a contract for your delivery boys ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. And you have had a contract covering your delivery
boys?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. With local 258?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You had a contract preceding that, did you not, with
another local of the UAW?
]\Ir. Chernuchin. No, sir, not that I know of. The only thing I
know is 258. If they had another number I don't know of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't your company have a contract with 649 at
onetime, of the UAW?
Mr. Chernuchin. It is possible, I don't know.
^ IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3813
Mr. Kennedy. You have reviewed your records since we discussed
this matter with you.
Mr. Cherntjchin. The only number that is familiar to me is 258.
Mr. Kennedy. 258 ?
Mr. Chernuchin. 258.
Mr. Kennedy. You say that is what is familiar to you because you
conducted those negotiations yourself, but you reviewed the record
and you know that you had a contract, your company had a contract,
with 649, did you not? You told me this 2 hours ago in the office.
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. Don't say you don't remember it again.
Mr. Chernuchin. Mr. Steinberg said that. The number is not
familiar. Yes, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. You know you had a contract with the UAW local
649, is that right?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvENNEDY. That contract, from an examination of the files,
was made some 3 or 4 years ago ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir. i
Mr. Kennedy. That was 649 of the UAW, is that right ? !
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That contract was made to cover eight delivery
boys, is that right ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And was it the procedure and practice of your
company to just check off any eight names and send their dues in
for welfare benefits and for union dues ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you also find that none of the employees of
your company were ever consulted as to whether they wanted to be-
long to that union or not ?
Mr. Chernuchin. They were not consulted ?
Mr. Kennedy. And the eight names were just taken at random
during this period of time ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And their dues were checked off, or their dues were
taken out of corporation funds
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. The welfare and pension payments were taken out
of corporate funds and sent into the union, is that right ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And the eight people whose names were used, some
of them were not even working at the company at the time?
Mr. Chernuchin. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So there was nobody that was receiving any bene-
fits from these payments, is that right ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Well, I doubt if they were. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. The $96 that you were paying each month, or your
company was paying, not you personally but your company was
paying each month, was merely to be able to say that your company
was union, is that right, so that you wouldn't be bothered by other
unions ?
Mr, Chernuchin. I don't know, no.
3814 IMPROPER ACTIVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Well, there was no benefit for anyone other than
management in that type of arrangement, is that right ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Well, I would like to explain something to you.
It would seem that way, but I never negotiated the contract, I never
had any union dealings with anybody. I had a partner who is de-
ceased who did all of that. It would seem that way, but I honestly
don't know. I never had any dealings with them. We have several
other unions, and I didn't negotiate contracts with them either. I just
don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. "\'\^iat are most of your employees, the 28 or 30
delivery boys ? What nationality are they, or extraction?
Mr. Chernuchin. Well, they are white, they are colored and they
are Puerto Rican. We don't pick them on any basis at all. We also
get a lot of school boys who are part-time workers coming in after
school. It is very unskilled work.
Mr. Kennedy. Just on the contract that you haA^e recently nego-
tiated with 258, of the teamsters — is that right ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That provides for a $40 week, is that right?
Mr. Chernuchin. I think $42.
Mr. Kennedy. $42 a week?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chernuchin. It is $40, to be increased within 30 days to $42.
Mr. Kennedy. And how much vacation does the employee receive?
Mr. Chernuchin. One week, after a year.
Mr. Kennedy. After he has worked there a year he receives 1 week
vacation ; is that right ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chernuchin. May I add if they work for less than a year, there
is a prorating on the vacation.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. So if they work for only three-quarters of a year,
then they might only get 4 days vacation ?
Mr. Chernuchin. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. If they work for 9 months, they might get 3 or 4
days vacation?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And they get $40 a week, receive $40 a week ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes. And after a month it is $42.
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees are members of the union out
of your 28 employees ? How many of them are members of the union ?
That is, 28 delivery boys.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chernuchin. I want to explain that this agreement is with All-
Rite Belt Co., not with the other firms. We use the services of 8 boys
who are listed.
Mr. Kennedy. Has tliat always been tlie situation, that you had
eight boys listed from All-Rite Belt Co. ?
Mr. Chernuchin. We had eight boys listed. I don't know where
they were listed from.
Mr. Kennedy. Your records show that up to recently, up to the
time you signed the contract, you only had one boy listed.
Mr. Chernuchin. Then they were listed on the other firms. Re-
member, sir, these names were sent at random. I told vou that.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3815
Mr. Kennedy. Even the ones that you sent in recently ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Those for this agreement, they were names at
random.
Mr. Kennedy. And the names are at random now ?
(The witness conferred with his counseL)
The Chairman. What do you mean at random ? Do you mean
they were not even working for you ?
Mr. Chernuchin. No. You have to understand. You see, I just
found this out myself.
These boys were doing errands and they were transient help.
Each paying period there would be a ditferent set of boys. They
probably had an original set of names and then they sent in these
welfare fees and dues under those names. The help would change
and we did not make a change in the names. In other words, we were
paying for people who, after a certain amount of time, were not
employed there.
Mr. Kennedy. Recently when you negotiated the contract with the
teamsters, were your employees consulted as to whether they wanted
to sign up with the teamsters ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Kennedy. He must know that.
Mr. Steinbercx. I just want to be helpful to everyone.
Mr. Chernuchin. Mr. Steinberg negotiated the contract and I
know there was a meeting between him and the employees, and some-
body from the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Were the employees representing the 28 messengers
or 8 messengers or representing only 1 person that you had on your
payroll ?
Mr. Chernuchin. There were eight employees, errand boys, in All-
llite Belt. This meeting and the contract is with that concern. These
eight boys are the errand boys in that concern.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, you had only 1 employee, only 1 mes-
senger on the payroll ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien the representatives of the employees met with
the union, was it representing that 1 employee or was it representing
the messengers from the other 3 or 4 companies?
Mr. Chernuchin. It represented the required amount of messengers
from this firm.
Mr. Kennedy. How many is that ?
Mr. Chernuchin. I would say about eight.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you select which eight you were going to
have work for this one ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Well, I would say we took the ones with the most
stability, because a lot of the boys would come and go. These boys
seemed to have the most stability.
Mr. Kennedy. They elected to become members of the teamsters
union?
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. But a review of your records shows that originally,
when the contract was first signed with this union, the UAW union,
that 8 names were selected at random, that money was sent in for their
union funds and their pension and welfare funds amounting^ to $96 ;
that these 8 names, after the initial payment, were perhaps fictitious
3816 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
people because they no lon^^er worked there, and the $96 was sent in
every month for a period of 2 or 3 years.
Mr, CiiERNUCHiN. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And this arrangement was changed somewhat by
you recently in your contract with the teamsters ?
Mr. Churnuchin. I guess it is more than somewhat. I just became
aware of the whole situation when we had to negotiate this new con-
tract.
The Chairman. There is something a little peculiar about this.
Why would you pay $96 a month out of your corporate funds and
not deduct it from wages ?
Mr, Chernuciiin. Well, actually, I had been paying it for this
number of years.
Let me explain something to you. The why's I cannot tell you,
because I don't know. I am out selling all day, as Mr. Dunne can
verify. I had no union dealings ; I didn't know much about this con-
tract at all.
When they called to renegotiate it, I didn't even know who they
were. I told them they must have the wrong number. When I found
out and checked in the office, I called them back and I advised them to
see my attorney.
Up until this time, I can't tell you why, because I — I knew I signed
a check for it, but there was no particular reason, and I can't answer
that question. I just don't know. I had no dealings with the union
people at all.
The Chairman. You are talking about yourself, personally ?
Mr. Chernuchin, Personally, yes.
The Chairman. But you knew that the $96 a month was being paid
out?
Mr. Chernuchin, Yes. I didn't know why or to whom, and I just
found out about the situation and names afterward.
The Chairman. Did you find out now that that $96 a month was
paid out of corporate funds and not withheld from wages, in the same •
amount paid each month, irrespective of the number of employees you
had?
Mr. Chernuchin, That is right.
The Chairman, If you had 1 you still paid for 8 and if you had
20 you still only paid for 8, and that is the arrangement you had with
this union ?
Mr, Chernuchin. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Once again, the employees of your plant — it wasn't
arranged for them to get much benefit out of this arrangement between
your company and the union ?
Mr. Chernuchin. I don't know what you call much benefit. This
is something that was negotiated between my attorney and the people
and whoever the help were.
Mr. Kennedy. I am talking about the arrangement as it had been.
Mr. Chernuchin. As it had been ?
Mr. Kennedy. Specifically, with no benefit for the employees of
your plant,
Mr, Chernuchin, I would say "No,"
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?
Senator Curtis. You have contracts with other unions ?
EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES EN' THE LABOR FIELD 3817
Mr. Chernuchin. Yes, sir; I do.
Senator Curtis. What other unions?
Mr. Chernuchin. It is in the ILG. It is local 40 and local 66.
They are most of my employees.
Senator Curtis. Do you transmit dues and welfare funds for them ?
Mr. Chernuchin. No. We have a shop chairman who collects the
dues and turns it over.
Senator Curtis. So it does not go through your hands at all ?
Mr. Chernuchin. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Even though this arrangement was made by some-
one else, you knew that this $96 was being paid out all the time ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Well, I signed the check. I know. I never knew
why or to whom.
Senator Curtis. "Wliy were you paying it ?
Mr. Chernuchin. "\Vliy was I paying it ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Chernuchin. I don't know. I was signing a check on arrange-
ments my partner made. We had a contract with them, and I suppose
he saw fit to do it.
Senator Curtis. With each check was there anything attached to
show what employees it was paid for ?
Mr. Chernuchin. Not that I am aware of. I don't know.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. You may stand aside.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Morris Ehrlich.
(Present at this point in the proceedings: Senators McClellan, Ives,
and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Will you be sworn ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MORRIS EHRLICH
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Ehri.ich. Morris Ehrlich, 221 East 76th Street, Manhattan,
secretary of the Eden Aero Parts, the Bronx, N. Y.
(At this point. Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Is that a corporation ?
Mr. EiiRLicH. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Plave you talked with members of the staff, and
know the general line of interrogation to expect ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I talked to Mr. Dunne.
The Chairman. I see you appear without an attorney. Are you
an attorney yourself ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You are an attorney ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You waive counsel, then, do you ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I do.
3818 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. I am g'oing to ask the photographers again about
this. You can get some other angle on this instead of being right in
front of me all the time.
Senator I\^s. The same thing applies to me.
The Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. You are secretary of the Eden Aero Parts ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees does that have ?
Mr. Ehrlich. We have 10 to 12 at the present time.
Mr, Kennedy. And you manufacture what ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Engine parts and miscellaneous items.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that for jet engines ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Some parts for jet engines.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that a subcontract ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Sub-subcontract.
Mr. Kennedy. Your employees are of what extraction ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Mixed. All. White, colored, Puerto Rican.
Mr, Kennedy. You made a contract, did you not, in 195G, signed a
contract, with 649 of UAW ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Your contract was with a Mr. Abe Brier ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I met Mr. Brier later; yes.
' Mr. Kennedy. That was 649 or 362 ?
Mr. Ehrlich. May I have the contract ? I think it is 362.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. That is 362. It was formerly 649. 362 was
one of the paper locals of the contract. Mr. Abe Brier came down
from 649.
Mr. Brier came in to see you ?
Mr. Ehrlich. He didn't see me at first. He saw my associate,
Mr. Aborn.
Mr. Kennedy. And then he came in and talked to you ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I heard he came around and he made an appoint-
ment for me to see him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss with him a contract?
Mr. Ehrlich. We did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he represent the employees at that time, of
your plant?
Mr. Ehrlich. Well, he claimed he had been approached to organize
our shop.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have any cards from any of the employees
showing that he represented them ?
Mr. Etirltch. He claimed he had, but he never exhibited any.
Mr. Kennedy. Did vou sign a contract with him?
Mr. Ehrlich. We did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he show you the cards prior to signing the con-
tract ?
Mr. Ehrlich. He did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Under the Taft-Hartley Act, doesn't it hold that the
bargaining agent must represent a maiority of the employees, prior to
the employer signing a contract with them?
_ Mr. Ehrlich. I wouldn't know that. I don't know about that pro-
vision,
Mr. Kennedy. You just went ahead and signed a contract with
him?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3819
Mr. EnRLicH. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. What arrangements were made in the contract?
How many employees did you have at that time?
Mr. Ehrlich. We had various numbers, but I think around that
time we had a total of about 26.
Mr. Kennedy. And were all the employees signed up in the union?
Mr. Ehrlich. They were not.
Mr. Kennedy. How many were signed up in the union?
Mr. Ehrlich. I believe about eight.
Mr. Kennedy. About eight employees?
Mr. Ehrlich. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. It was not a majority of the employees?
Mr. Ehrlich. It was not.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they consulted as to whether they wanted to
be members of the union ?
Mr. Ehrlich. The eight ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes. They signed the contract.
Mr. Kennedy. They signed it. Were any of the others consulted
as to whether they wanted to be members of the union ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Not by me ; but we asked one of the men who has been
many years with us, and he went around the shop and came up with
these eight names.
Senator Ives. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. Did you request them to sign up?
Mr. Ehrlich. Personally, no.
Senator Ives. Did anybody representing you request them to sign
up?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes. One of the employees went around the shop.
Senator Ives. That would be the same thing as if you requested
them ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Not necessarily.
Senator Ives. You sent him around, did you not?
Mr. P^HRLicH. We told him to see whether the men wanted to join
this particular organization.
Senator Ives. Well, suppose they had not? TVHiat would have
happened ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Nothing. We had been approached many times,
and we were never organized because they had rejected it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any increase in wages or betterment of
conditions once you signed the contract ?
Mr. Ehrlich. To some extent.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't the contract stipulate that the minimum wage
would be paid ; namely $40 for a 40-hour week ?
Mr. Ehrlich. That is not the true picture, because when you get
inexperienced help you start them at $1 and if you get experienced
help you start them at $2. But that is the minimum you want to start
them at,
Mr. Kennedy. The contract stipulated that is how much was to
be paid?
Mr. Ehrlich. Certainly.
Mr. Kennedy. So that was no benefit for the employee, was it?
3820 IMPROPER ACTIVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. EiiRLiCH. I think practically all of them were getting more
than the minimum.
:'■ Mr. Kennedy. I understand they might have been gettmg more
than that, but signing the contract with the union was no benefit for
the employee?
Mr. Ehrlich. Xo, of course not, in that regard, anyway.
Mr. IvENNEDY. It was an advantage for the employer, namely, your-
self, because you could tell anyone else that came to you after that,
any other union that came to you, that you were already a union
shop ?
Mr. Ehrlich. That is perfectly true.
Mr. Kennedy. Who paid the dues for these employees, these eight
employees ?
Mr. Ehrlich. The employer did.
Mr. Kennedy. You paid them ? i
Mr. Ehrlich. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Out of corporate funds ?
Mr. Ehrlich. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there ever any contact between the representa-
tive of the union and the employees ?
Mr, Ehrlich. I don't know because I am there generally only in
the afternoons. I believe in the begimiing there was some slight
contact, if at all. I can't honestly say.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you not refuse initially to allow Brier to see
the employees ?
Mr, Ehrlich. I believe I did, but I don't recall,
Mr. Kennedy. But you know of no contact after that between Brier
and the employees ?
Mr. Ehrlich, Well, I have seen notices posted in the shop to the
effect that there was a meeting to be held.
Mr, Kennedy. And at one time you kept the dues books of the
members in your own drawer, is that right ?
Mr. Ehrlich, Yes,
The Chairman. Did they know that they were members at that
time ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes. They signed the contract, sir. Their signa-
tures appear on the original contract.
Mr. Kennedy. Just in summary, out of some 26 employees that you
had 8 of them became members of the union ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never had a majority that requested to become
members of the union anyway, but only 8 signed, only 8 became mem-
bers of the union, the dues were paid by the corporation, and they were
not checked off from the wages of the employees ?
Mr. Ehrlich. That is correct.
Mr. KJENNEDY. The union representative, Abe Brier, never had any
contact with the employees ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I wouldn't say that.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, not that you know of.
Mr. Ehrlich. Not that I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. And the wage conditions provided the minimum
wage of $1 an hour. You could not have paid less than that anyhow,
could you ?
Mr, Ehrlich. That is right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3821
The Chairman. Is this what you call a soft contract or a sweet-
heart contract, where the employer gets all the advantages and the
employee nothing ?
Mr. P2iiRLiCH. I wouldn't say that, sir.
The Chairmax. Tell us what advantage they got.
Mr. Ehrlich. The}- had an advantage of having frozen their sen-
iority. We had no fixed vacation regulation. And they got for 1
year 1 week and for 2 years 2 weeks. They had provisions made
for settling of disputes, and, in general, that is the advantage they
received.
The Chairman. Did the}' ever have any disputes that they settled ?
Mr. Ehrlich. No.
The Chairman. So they got no adA^antage there, because they have
had no disputes.
Mr. Ehrlich. "We don't have disputes.
The Chairman. What is the advantage to you now in having this
union contract ?
Mr. Ehri.ich. Well, it is an advantage in that it wards off others
from interfering with our business by stopping employees.
The Chairman. In other words, it prevents a legitimate union from
coming in there and organizing those people and trying to honestly
represent them and get benefits for them. That is the truth about it,
is it not ?
Mr. Ehrlich. That is not, sir. When I first met Mr. Brier, I
had no idea who he was. He was just another organizer. Somehow
he appeared to be an honest man. He never asked us for a nickel;
we never gave him a dollar. It was the understanding right from
the very beginning he wanted nothing from us outside of the union
dues.
The Chairman. And that you agreed to pay ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Tliat is the point of today's hearing, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. That was getting something from you was it?
Mr. Ehrlich. Well, if you were approached like we were, sir,
over the years, bj' many, many people who wanted nothing but money,
we were happy to stand with somebody who had, as we understood
it to be, a legitimate union.
The CiTAiR3rAN. He offered to do it for less. He would just take
eight members.
Mr. Ehrlich. We made the best contract we could, naturally.
The Chairman. I am sure. I do not doubt that. But does it not
seem to j^ou, and you appear to be a pretty intelligent fellow, that
from a pro])er analysis of it, you recognize it as a racket ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I think the trouble is with the system, sir.
The (^HAiRMAN. The what ?
Mr. Ehrlich. With the system itself, the entire system. It should
be overhauled.
The Chairman. It is a system that is a racket. That is the way
you understand it, it is not ?
Mr. Ehrlich. We are forced to do these things.
Senator Ives. Mv. Chairman ?
The (^hairman. Wait a moment.
You say j'ou are forced to do it. But you feel 3'ou have to do it to
protect yourself ?
3822 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES m THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. EnRLicTi. That is right.
Senator Ives. Were you here when I was questioning one of the
witnesses before you, Mr. Ehrlich ?
Mr. Ehri.ich. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Did you hear what I said about conferring with the
National Labor Relations Board regional office in New York and the
State labor relations board ?
Mr. Ehrltch. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. You are an attorney. You have the knowledge that
those boards exist ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. And to some extent, undoubtedly, you have knowl-
edge of the law ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. If you are in any doubt, you should know that you
can go to those boards and get the matter cleared up. Did it ever
occur to you that in that situation in which you were confronted at
that time, you could go to one of those boards or both of them to find
out?
(At this point. Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes, sir ; if we went through the routine
Senator Ives. If you did go through the routine ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I said if we went through the routine, such as you
suggest, we might be out of business at this time with a struck shop.
All they need is one man walking up and down and we get no de-
liveries.
Senator Ives. No. That is where you are all wrong. In doing
what I suggest, you would at least be following the law, which you
obviously did not do in what you did do.
The Chairman. Do you think it might depend on the people you
are dealing with, their character and so forth, as to whether you
would be out of business or not ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I am not saying about this particular organization.
Others have come along over the years. The threat is always there.
The Chairman. I understand, but you did not sign up with the
others.
Mr. Ehrlich. No, because the pressure was not as great in the
years gone by as it has been in the last few years. I really don't know
why, but the pressure is bad.
The Chairman. What do you mean by "pressure" ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Organizational pressure.
The Chairman. Let us define it a little. Give us some illustrations.
Mr. Ehrlich. We would have men come around. I have been ap-
proaclied by a few of your employees who want to organize the sliop.
Other organizers stand out on the street stopping our employees,
talking to them. Tlien they would come in and see us. We could see or
someliow get the feel of it that they were racketeers and wanting noth-
ing but money.
We would not sign with them. Again, I repeat, we signed with Mr.
Brier because we felt he was not out to line his pockets with our
money. Maybe he wanted to run a union business and earn a living
in the dues, that may be, but he didn't want anything extra.
(At this point. Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. And also, he wanted your employees.
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3823
Mr. Ehrlich. That is something I found out. They tried to get in
in the beginning.
Mr. Kennedy, Do you mean some union tried to get something for
your employees ?
Mr. Ehrlich. I didn't say that. I said they will take whatever
they can, and then try to get more employees and unionize the entire
shop. But they have to get in first.
Mr. Kennedy. And you found Mr. Brier a very gentlemanly man
because he did not attempt to get anything for your employees, is
that right?
Mr. Ehrlich. I didn't say anything of the kind. I said I found him
to be a gentleman because he didn't want any graft.
Mr. Kennedy. And he didn't want anything for your employees?
Mr. Ehrlich. He did get something, some things they didn't have.
Mr. Kennedy. Which was what?
Mr. Ehrlich. Vacations, and seniority.
Mr. Kennedy. You broke down and gave them a week for every
year they worked ?
Mr. P]hrlich. Well, I didn't have to.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't have to ?
Mr. Ehrlich. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy. So they got that advantage and the advantage of
the minimum wage of $1 an hour, the $40 a week ?
Mr. Ehrlich. AVell, you stress the minimum wage whicli is not
important because if they have any skill at all, they will get twice
that.
The Chairman. But your contract does not jn-ovide that. In otlier
words, under this contract, you could have reduced the wages of every
employee to $40 a week and not violated the contract.
Mr. Ehrlich. Well, as a practical matter, it does not work out
that way.
The Chairman. Probably, you do not even want to do it, but I
am talking about — insofar as the contract protecting the workers,
you could, as the employer, under this contract, reduce everyone's
wages to $40 a week, could you not?
Mr. Ehrlich. That is a legal interpretation. Maybe we could,
but they would not be there the next day.
The Chairman. That may be true, but there was nothing in there
that protected or benefited the people who were working.
Mr. Ehrlich. I have never seen a contract which in its basic fea-
tures was different from the one we drew, and I have seen a number
of contracts. I think it is quite elaborate.
The Chairman. I have never heard of a contract that took the
minimum wage and said that was the wage.
Mr. Ehlrich. I think they all do.
The Chairman. I think, in actually representing the working peo-
ple, they usually try to get something a little above what is the
minimum wage.
Mr. Ehrlich. When you have inexperienced help, you have to have
some basis to start with.
The Chairman. The law fixes that basis at $40 a week.
Mr. Ehrlich. Except for apprentices. 1 think apprentices are
at a smaller figure.
The Chairman. Do you have apprentices ?
3824 IMPROPER ACTIVrriEiS in the labor FIEIiD
Mr. Ehrlich. We do have a training program.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to this time, prior to the time that you signed
this contract, you were not giving your employees any vacation at all ?
Mr. EiiRLicii. Older employees we did. We had no set program.
Mr. Kennedy. No arrangements were made for your employees to
get any vacation at all ?
Mr. Ehrlich. There was no definite program about it.
Mr. KJENNEDY. And this came in and changed this by giving all of
your employees a week's vacation?
Mr. Ehrlich. There it is, right in the contract and we follow on
it.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, one of the mattei*s that we are in-
vestigating, of course, m racketeering, is a collusive deal between
management and labor. If the union is a racket, certainly, the em-
ployers who make these kinds of arrangements have to fall into the
same categoiy.
This would not be possible if it Avas not for you making this kind of a
contract.
Mr. Ehrlich. That isn't so. We don't know who the union is
when they come in.
Mr. Kennedy. It does not matter who the miion is. You made this
contract.
Mr. Ehrlich. But we would do what you would do. We make the
best possible deal. We cannot, voluntarily, unless we are forced to,
give more than we have to, because we can be put out of business, too.
I have seen unions approach us with most extraordinary deals : 10-
percent welfare, $5 a month dues, and everything. We cannot stay in
business. We have to make the best deal we can.
Mr. Kennedy. That is a good argument, on the part of manage-
ment for sweetheart contracts.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Senator Goldwater ?
Senator Goldwater. "Wliat parts do you make for jet engines?
Mr. Ehrlich. We make single parts. We don't Imow what the
actual end use is. It may be 1 part of 500 that go into an engine, or
we may do 1 operation or 2 operations for someone else.
Senator Goldwater. How much skill is required?
Mr. Ehrlich. Quite a lot of skill. We work down to tolerances of
two-tenths and you have fine finishes involved.
Senator Goldwater. To tAvo-tenths ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes.
Senator Goldwater. That is not very fine.
Mr. Ehrlich. Two-tenths ?
Senator Goldwater. No.
Mr. Ehrlich. Well
Senator Goldwater. How many employees do you have ?
Mr. Ehrlich. We have about 12 now.
Senator (toldwater. You do not know what that part is ?
Mr. Ehrlich. For instance, we are working for some other concern
on a blank gear.
Senator Goldwater. Wliat kind of a machine does it take to make
that part?
Mr. Ehrlich. We have turret lathes, grinders.
Senator Goldwater. '\'\niat do you pay a turret-lathe operator?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3825
Mr. EiiRLicii. I don't know. I don't handle that end of it.
Senator Goldwater. You are the secretary ?
Mr. Ehrlicii. That is right.
Senator Goldwater. You have 12 employees ?
Mr. Ehrlich. That's right.
Senator Goldwater. You don't know what you pay a turret-lathe
operator ?
Mr. Ehrlich. Sure.
Senator Goldwater. You pay him more than $40 a week?
Mr. Ehrlich. Yes ; he probably gets $80 or $90 a week and maybe
a hundred.
Senator Goldwater. $2.40 an hour?
Mr. Ehrlich. I think that is about right, if they are experienced.
Senator Goldwater. How many of those would you have out of 12?
Mr. Ehrlich. We rotate. We don't have fixed operators.
Senator Goldwater. Where do you get them, when 3'ou need them ?
Mr. Ehrlich. The Xew York State Employment Bureau, generally.
Senator Goldwater. Does the union not provide them ?
Mr. Ehrlich. They don't have that type of worker, I don't think.
Senator Goldwati:r. Did you ever ask them for a replacement
worker, when you lose one or start to rotate?
Mr. Ehrlich. I don't handle that end of the business. I handle,
generally, the clerical work.
Senator Goldwater. What do you pay a precision grinder?
Mr. Ehrlich. We don't have any of that work at the present time.
We have one man who is capable of doing it. He gets $150 a week.
Senator Goldwater. How many people get this $40 a week?
Mr. Ehrlich. I don't think there is anybody in our organization
who gets $40 a week.
Senator Goldwater. Where did it come into this discussion?
Mr. Ehrlich. Because the contract provides for a minimum of $40
a Aveek.
Senator Goldwater. And you did not give any vacations to these
highly skilled people before that time?
Mr. Ehrlich. There was no set policy, but if we wanted to retain
the good will of an employee, we would take care of him.
Senator Goldwati^r. Do you have anybody who gets $40 a week?
Mr. Ehrlich. I believe not.
Senator Goldwater. That is all, I think.
That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. And you paid $32 a month for 8 employees ; is that
right?
Mr. Ehrlich. We had been paying $32 a month, and then we found
out that we were paying for 2 employees who had laid oif. We had a
policy of instructing our young lady to send for eight employees, and
when they were laid off it was overlooked.
Mr. Kennedy. So you were paying $32 a month to this union in
order to be a union shop, and for a period during 1957 you were pay-
ing for some employees that did not even work for you.
Mr. Ehrlich. That was an error.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mv. Chairman.
The Chairman. Is there any other witness ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Murray Garren.
89330— 57— pt. 10 16
3826 IMPROPER ACTivmES m the labor field
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gaeren. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF MURRAY GARREN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, WILLIAM SPARAGO
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, your
business or occupation.
Mr. Garren. Murray M. Garren, 29 Park Lane, Eockville Centre,
N. Y. I am an automatic car-wash operator.
The Chairman. You have with you your counsel ?
Mr. Sparago. William Sparago, 50 Court Street, Brooklyn, N. Y.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You run a car wash ?
Mr. Garren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you are a member of an association, are you
not?
Mr. Garren. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Does the association consist of 12 or 15 shops?
Mr. Garren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And that association has a contract with Local No.
224of theUAW-AFL?
Mr. Garren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You can see local No. 224 is up on our chart, Mr.
Chairman.
Each of these 15 shops, approximately, have between 8 and 20 em-
ployees ; is that right ?
Mr. Garren. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. The contract that you have signed with Local No.
224 of the UAW-AFL provides for what salaries for these employees?
Mr. Garren. I don't recall. I think I told Mr. Dunne from 85 cents
to $1 an hour, or a weekly basis of $40 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. You either paid them 85 cents an hour or $40 a week
for a 57-hour week ? $40 for a $57-hour week ?
Mr. Garren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the contract you signed with Local No. 224
oftheUAW?
Mr. Garren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. For 57 hours in a particular week he gets paid $40 ?
Mr. Garren. Tliat is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Most of the employees of these shops, these 15 shops,
are Negro or Puerto Kicans, is that right ?
Mr. Garren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. The initiation fee for them to belong to the union ia
$10?
Mr. Garren. I don't recall what the initiation was, but at the time
we signed the contract I believe the initiation fee was waived, because
we came over from the CIO to the AFL 224, based upon a decision of
the board of New York State.
Mr. Kennedy. What was that, again ?
IMPROPER ACnVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3827
Mr. Garren. We were transferred from the CIO 365 UAW to the
local 224, UAW-AFL, by a decision of the Labor Relations Board of
New York.
Mr. Kennedy. I understand.
Who pays the initiation fee ?
Mr. Garren. On the shops, on the master contract, my recollection
is the initiation fee has been waived. The only moneys paid are the
$3.50 a month for the steady help.
Mr. Kennedy. And that is the dues for the members ?
Mr. Garren. Pardon ?
Mr.' Kennedy. That is for the dues for the employees ?
Mr. Garren. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that checked off their salaries or is it taken from
the funds of the corporation of the company ?
Mr. Garren. Are you talking about my particular company?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, give me your company.
Mr. Garren. In my company, sometimes I pay the dues and some-
times the employees pay the dues, depending upon how I feel and how
business is at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. Sometimes if you feel good you pay the dues and
other times they pay them, is that right ?
Mr. Garren. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat do the other companies do, of your associa-
tion?
Mr. Garren. Some members pay all of the dues and some members
pay none of the dues. It depends upon how they feel toward their
particular employees.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. Are these contracts submitted to the workers them-
selves ? Are they given an opportunity to approve them ?
Mr. Garren. I don't know, sir. Before we signed this contract,
we had a contract which is similar to this, with local 365, UAW-CIO,
Local 365. At the time we had contract difficulties with 365. During
the interim, other locals must have gotten wind of it, and they tried
to come in and organize our shops.
The Chairman. Started what?
Mr. Garren. They tried to organize our shops. And they couldn't.
However, local 995 received cards from almost all the members
in our shops and also on those that were not in our master contract
or not in our association. However, it took several months before
the decision was handed down by the National Labor Relations
Board.
There was a contest between 995 and 365, CIO. The association,
I don't recall whether each member signed or just the president at
that time signed the agreement with local 365 of the CIO and 995
of the AFL, to go before the Labor Relations Board for a union vote.
Based upon a decision of the Labor Board, 995 was instrumental
in receiving cards from all these men.
At the time they handed down the decision, I was there with
several other members of my committee, and there was also Ann
Mazacara, and Tommy DeLorenzo of local 365, CIO, when the decision
was handed down that we are to sign a contract or negotiate a con-
tract with AFL 224, substituting for 995.
3828 IMPROPER ACrn'TTIBS IN THE L.\BOR FIETiD
The CiiAiRMAX. What about this wage of 85 cents an hour? Is
that below the minimum ?
Mr. Garren. I haven't seen the contract in about a year, sir. It
might be. I don't know.
The CiiAiRMAx. I think the minimum wage is a dollar an hour.
Mr. Kennedy. They are getting 85 cents an hour optionally or $40
for a 57-hour week.
Mr. Garren. "We are not covered by the minimum- wage law, sir.
We have made inquiries with the State labor board several times,
checking to see whether we are covered or not.
The Chairman. Does anybody from the union actually look after
the interest of these workers ?
Mr. Garren. Well, when they have complaints up there, they come
back and the union tries to straighten us out.
The Chairman. Have you had any complaints ?
Mr. Garren. There are sometimes complaints.
The Chairman. I am just trying to find out what service, what
business these laboring men get out of a contract like tliis.
Mr. Garren. Sometimes w^e fire a man and then he goes back to
the union hall and the union tells us to put him back to work. We
put him back to work.
The Chairman. Senator Goldwater ?
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Garren, in addition to being president of
the association
Mr. Garren. I am no longer president.
Senator Goldwater. But you still operate Boulevard Auto Laundry
in Queens and the Quick Car Wash in the Bronx ?
Mr. Garren. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. How many employees do you have generally
between the two places i
Mr. Garren. The Boulevard Auto Laundry operates with approxi-
mately 8 employees and the Quick Car Wash in the Bronx operates
with between 15 and 20 employees.
Senator Goldwater. How much do you get per car for a wash ?
Mr. Garren. In Queens we get $1.50, Monday to Thursday ; $2 Fri-
day and Saturday. In the Bronx we get 99 cents, Monday through
Thursday, and $1.25 on Friday and $1.50 on Saturday. We are closed
Sunday.
Senator Goldwater. It is kind of hard to get 57 hours in 6 days.
Mr. Garren. Nine and a half hours a day.
Senator Goldwater. Nine and a half hours a day ?
Well, that is not hard.
Mr. Garren. However, the men do not work all the time. They
go out for coffee breaks whenever they feel like it.
Senator Goldwater. But they are around the place.
Mr. Garren. Yes ; they are around.
Senator Gch.dwater. Everybody gets coffee breaks these days.
Mr. Garren. They take it when'they want to.
Senator Goldwater. How many cai's a da}' Avould you say you
handled at Queens (
Mr. Garren. Queens (
Senator Goldwater. Yes.
Mr. Garren. It depends upon the weather and the amount of men
I have workinjr for me.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3829
Senator Goldwater. Say this time of year.
Mr, Garren. This time of year. Business is off.
Senator Goldwater. Well, if it is off, what is it off to ?
Mr. G~ARREN. I may do today 60 cars.
Senator Goldwater. How many would you do on a good day ?
Mr. Garren. Double.
Senator Goldwater. How about the Bronx establishment ?
Mr. Garren. The Bronx establishment might do anywhere fi'om
400 to 700 cars today.
Senator Goldwater. Four hundred to seven hundred ?
Mr. Garren. It is a different type operation.
Senator Goldwatj:r. Would that be a bad day ?
Mr. Garren. That is right.
Senator Gold WxVTEr. What would be a good day at the Bronx ?
Mr. Garren. Over 1,000 cars.
Senator Goldwater. And you have 15 to 20 employees there that
you are paying, actually, on a 57-hour week, you are paying them 70
cents an hour.
Mr. Garren. At the Bronx ?
Senator Goldavater. Yes.
Mr. Garren. The one in Queens I own with my wife and on the one
in the Bronx I have a partner. They are both different operations.
Senator Goldwater. But you pay these salaries at both of them.
Mr. Garren. Yes.
Senator Goldwater. It is 70.1, at $40 a week, for 57 hours.
Mr. Garren. However, the $40 was stopped about a year ago.
Mr. Sparago. May I ask at tliis time the pertinence of this ques-
tioning with respect to the number of cars ?
Senator Goldwater. Yes ; I will tell you. I am a businessman. I
am going to be just as rough on businessmen that pay their employees
too little as I am on union officials that are crooked and racketeers. I
do not think that this is any kind of a wage to be paying men who
work 9% hours a day washing cars. That is the gist of my ques-
tioning.
The Chairman. Will the Senator yield?
Senator Goldwait^^r. Yes.
The Chairman. It also establishes the fact that these men who are
paying the dues are actually getting no service and no protection from
the racketeers' unions.
Mr. Garren. However, it was not my choice which union
Mr. Sparago. In tliat event, I must object to that line of questioning,
because I feel it is not pertinent, and the question of how much a busi-
nessman should pay is not within the scope of this investigation, or in
the investigation of this committee.
The amount of wages that are paid to any employee is a question of
bargaining, and that is why a union is picked as the bargaining agent.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
The Chair rules that the testimony sought is within the jurisdiction
of this committee. We are investigating racketeers and labor unions,
and collusion between business and unions.
To establish the low rate of pay that these employees are getting
is a very strong circumstance, if not a conclusive fact, that these men,
notwithstanding their paying their dues, having joined a union, that
this union is giving no service, is not looking after their interest, and,
3830 IMPROPER ACTivrriEis m the labor field
therefore, it tends to show that it is possibly not a legitimate union but
is simply a racketeering organization.
If management is dealing with that sort of a union, for getting the
benefit of these very low wages, it thoroughly means it is within tlie
jurisdiction of this committee.
Proceed.
Mr. Sparago. I would like to record my objection to any
The Chairman. The objection is heard and the objection is over-
ruled.
Proceed.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman, I had about completed my
questioning.
I would say for your information, the subject of extending the Fair
Labor Standards Act is before the Labor Committee of the Senate
now — it is also before the Labor Committee of the House — and, with
the extension, would naturally touch on this business. I might say
we have had a lot of complaints from businesses not now covered that
they could not afford to pay the proposed minimum wage if the cover-
age were extended to them.
I think that, in itself, Mr. Chairman, would show the pertinency
of this information. I do not care where we develop this information,
whether it is in this committee or before the Labor Committee, or,
by chance, before any committee. If it is pointed out that there are
abuses, I think the abuses should be noted. I cannot bring myself to
believe that the union, charged with the responsibility of negotiating^
for decent wages, has done their job, and in the absence of any respon-
sible union, that management is doing a particularly generous thing
toward employees when they pay them 70 cents an hour and work them
9I/2 hours a day, which even stretching arithmetic, the intake of that
would be about $140 a day wages from a $1,500 possible income.
I do not know tlie other details of your business, such as taxes and
so forth. But 10 percent out of a sales dollar is mighty low.
Mr. Sparago. The question of 57% hours sound very bad, or 57
hours, or even 52 hours. The fact of the matter is, though, that this
type of help that comes around are not regular and steady workers.
They don't work 57 hours. When they report to a job, they don't
work 8 hours. If they would work continuously for 6 hours, and
create production during those 6 hours, they would be underpaid.
But in a great many of these cases, if you listen to the complaints
of the general public, who are the beneficiaries of their efforts and
labor, you would find that these people sometimes are not even worth
the wages that they get.
There is a lot to be said and a lot to be argued from both points.
You must remember that you get a very, very low type of intelli-
gence and a very low type of worker in this particular field.
All those factors go into it.
I don't care to be too argumentative, but the fact is that inferences
can be made. We know there are conditions in every industry. We
know that this committee is doing a very good job. I, for one, appre-
ciate it.
Of course, the appreciation will be not for the work that is done by
this committee, but the appreciation will be shown by the public if
some proper legislation is enacted to cover the sorry conditions that
we have in the labor field.
IMPROPER ACTIVmES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3831
There are a lot of things that go on and we know it. Nobody can
talk about it. The general public feels it. They are affected by it.
The general public is hurt. It isn't the individual worker here who
doesn't get an adequate wage. It isn't the fact that
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Do you have any further questions ?
Senator Goldwater. No.
The Chairman. I do not mind listening to counsel, but we are
rather tired and trying to get through. You are not a witness. We
are only trying to get facts. We can make our own deduction.
As you say, there are a lot of things going on which the public feels
but which are hard to prove.
There are some pretty good feelings about these soft contracts made
by these racketeering unions with small-business people. Maybe they
are under a feeling of fear that if they do not sign up with them some-
thing worse will happen to them.
It is pretty hard to get that established in the record as a fact.
When we establish circumstances like this, the contracts that they are
making, on the face of them it shows the working people are not getting
any benefit out of it, and not even getting now under the law what
are minimum wages. The minimum wage may not apply to this
business. I understand that.
But this certainly indicates to me, and I think it will to other mem-
bers of the committee and to the public, that this is more of a racket
than it is a service to the working people.
Mr. Sparago. I will agree that in a great many cases it is so. That
is why I approve of the action of the committee. As a matter of fact,,
when my client was called by the investigations, I was called and said
"Give them all the information you have."
And we furnished the committee with an affidavit.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Are there any other questions ?
If not, you may stand aside.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Jerome Fine.
( Present at this point in the proceedings : Senators McClellan and
Goldwater.)
The Chairman. Will you be sworn, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Fine. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JEROME FINE
The Chairman. State your name and your place of business.
Mr. Fine. Jerome Fine. Seal Tight Quilting Co., 471 Manhattan
Avenue, Brooklyn.
The Chairman. Have you talked to members of the staff and know
generally the line of interrogation to expect?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you waive counsel?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
3832 IMPROPER AcrrvrTiES m the labor field
Mr. Kennedy. What is the Seal Tight Quilting Corp.? What do
you manufacture?
Mr. Fine. We do processing of electronic quilting.
Mr. Kennedy. What is electronic quilting ?
Mr. Fine. We take two pieces of plastic material, with cotton wad-
ding between it, and we quilt it without stitches. It is a heat sealing
process.
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees do you have?
Mr. Fine. At the moment ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Fine. Three.
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees did you liave in the middle
of 1955?
Mr. Fine. It varied from 12 to 25 or 30.
Mr. Kennedy. What nationality were most of those ?
Mr. Fine. Completely mixed.
Mr. Kennedy. Negro, Puerto Rican, and white?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You made a contract on the 5th of July with Local
649, UAW-AFL?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, 649 is on the chart.
That was to cover all of your employees ?
The Chairman. What year was that ?
Mr. Kennedy. July 1955.
That was to cover all of your employees ?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir,
Mr. Kennedy. With whom did you negotiate the contract ?
Mr. Fine. Mr. Davidoff.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Harry Davidoff?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have any conferences with your employees
prior to that time?
Mr. Fine. I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ever meet with your employees, do you
know?
Mr. Fine. A representative of the local did.
Mr. lO.NNEDY. Were you there at the time ?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you urge them to join the union at that time?
Mr. Fine. I believe they were already members at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. They were already members of 649 ?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You had already signed them up ?
Mr. Fine. They were already members ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You made them members of local 649 ?
Mr. Fine. The foreman or my bookkeeper.
Mr. Kennedy, l-^rhen were they told that they were members?
Shortly afterward?
Mr. Fine. Wlien was it ?
Mr. Kennedy. T^Hien were they told that they were members of
local 649?
Mr. Fine. At the time that there was a meeting called and the men
were told that the shop was becoming union, that they were getting
IMPROPER ACTn^ITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3833
increases, they were getting additional holidays, that they were get-
ting vacation money — well, they were getting that anyway. And
they agreed to become unionized.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you taken them into the union prior to that
time? Had you already signed the contract with Mr. Davidoff in
649?
Mr. Fine. I think it was simultaneous.
Mr, Kennedy. Did they have a vote as to whether they wanted
to become members of the union, or how was it arranged ? Did you
just arrange it with Mr. Davidoff?
Mr. Fine. Well, I had wondered. I should say that I met with Mr.
Davidoff' and we agreed on my factory becoming a union. It had
not been union and I had been in business about 5 years. I guess it
was time.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, you say there were some benefits for
the employees. I have the contract in front of me, and it says that
the minimum wage will be 85 cents an hour. Is that right?
Mr. Fine. At the time, I believe the Government minimum wa-ge
was 75 cents an hour.
Mr. Kennedy. And you guaranteed 85 cents?
Mr. Fine. I never paid a man 85 cents.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the guaranty in the contract?
Mr. Fine. That is what it states, I believe. I haven't read it
recently.
Mr. Kjinnedy. "Wlien the minimum wage was raised to a dollar,
did it still remain at 85 cents in the contract?
Mr. Fine. I don't believe the contract was ever changed. In fact,
shortly thereafter, my business had gotten very bad, to the point where
it is only three people at the moment, and almost complete union
negotiations were cut off.
Mr. Kennedy. So you had a contract for guaranteeing to your em-
ployees a wage of 85 cents an hour when the minimum wage federally
was $1 an hour, is that right ?
Mr. Fine. No, sir ; I believe that is incorrect. At the time of the
union conti-act — —
Mr. Kennedy. I know at the time of the contract. I am talking
about subsequently, when the contract was in effect it provided for
85 cents an hour when the minimum wage was already a dollar.
Mr. Fine. It was an old contract.
Mr. Kennedy. The contract was not changed, was it?
Mr. Fine. There was no rider attached to it.
Mr. Kennedy. You had no pension or welfare provisions in the
contract ?
Mr. Fine. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And it was stipulated that after an employee had
worked there for 12 months, he would receive 1 week's vacation?
Mr. Fine. I believe that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And after he had worked there 36 months, he would
receive 2 weeks' vacation?
Mr. Fine. That is correct, sir. I also believe that there isn't any-
thing in there suggesting bonuses to my men, which they always got at
Christmas time.
Mr. Kennedy. I am just talking about the contract.
3834 IMPROPER ACTIVmElS EST THE LABOR FIELD
And the provisions for the promotion on the basis of plantwide
seniority, that was crossed out, that provision of the contract ?
Mr. Fine. I don't recall. If you have it in front of you, sir, you
would have it at your fingertips.
Mr. Kennedy. There was no arrangement made for rest periods
and washup time? That provision usually contained in a contract
was also crossed out?
Mr. Fine. It may have been. I don't believe there was any reason
for it, because I believe that a happy shop will do the best for me.
Mr. Kennedy. I am just talking about the contract. Once again,
you were able to sign a contract with this union with no real benefits
for the workers?
Mr. Fine. I wouldn't say that, sir. They did get benefits. They
got more benefits than they did before they were unionized.
Mr. Kennedy. They got a week's vacation and a wage scale of 85
cents an hour. They got a week's vacation a year. The sickness and
accident benefits were crossed out also. You had nothing to cover
sickness and accident?
Mr. Fine. I believe that is taken care of by the insurance that I
carry for the factory.
Mr. Kennedy. There is nothing in the contract.
The Chairman. I hand you here a copy of the contract and I ask
you to examine it and state if that is the contract you signed. Counsel
has been referring to it, about certain provisions being crossed out.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Fine. Sir, there was a question about this contract. On the top
it is very clearly marked "Retype completely." I haven't had an office
staff since
The Chairman. Is that a signed contract ?
Mr. Fine. This is signed by Mr. Davidoff, and my signature also
appears on it. As I say
The Chairman. Did you have another contract, a different contract
from that?
Mr. Fine. As I say, I haven't had an office staff for over a year now.
I couldn't find another copy of this. This is the one. This is the only
copy I have.
The Chairman. I assume you agreed to it by signing it, did you
not?
Mr. Fine. Actually, sir, this copy was signed by me in the presence
of one of your men in my office the day they took it away. All I
had was this contract signed by Mr. Davidoff. My signature was first
put on my copy, which was this, the day that it was taken from me.
The Chairman. You had not signed it until the day that the staff
came to see you ?
Mr. Fine. No. The staff had been in my office for 2 days, but the
third day that they were there is when they took this.
The Chairman. In other words, you had an unsigned copy insofar
as your signature is concerned. But it was signed by Mr. Davidoff?
Mr. Fine. Yes. A contract in my possession not having my signa-
ture is still good. It had the signature of the union delegate.
The Chairtman. That is the one you had from him that you were
relying on. Did you have any other ?
Mr. Fine. I can't recall, sir. I read on the top of this where it says,
"Retype completely."
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3835
If there is another copy, that should exist, with the provisions as
marked in here, it should exist somewhere.
The Chairman. All right. That copy will be made exhibit No. 9
for reference.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 9" for ref-
erence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr, Kennedy. How did you arrange for the dues to be sent in to
the union ?
Mr. Fine. I believe my bookkeeper deducted it from the salaries
of the men, and when the due date — I believe she took out a dollar
a week so that the men would not be taxed too much, or not have to
give up the $4 at one time. When the full money was collected, a
-sheet was made up bearing the full amount of the dues, and sent to
the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay any other money to Mr. Davidoff or
anybody connected with him ?
Mr. Fine. No, except for the check that you have in your possession,
which was for an ad in tlie booklet.
The Chairman. How many employees did you have on the 10th
■of August 1955 ?
Mr. Fine. I couldn't just pull that answer out of the air, sir.
The Chairman. You know about how many you had.
Mr. Fine. ^Vhen was this ? The 10th of when ?
The Chairman. The 10th of August 1955. It would be 2 years ago.
Mr. Fine. Fifteen or eighteen, or twenty. Something like that.
The Chairman. What was the volume of your business in that year ?
What did you gross ?
Mr. Fine. I think close to $800,000, sir.
The Chairman. $800,000?
Mr. Fine. I believe so, sir.
The Chairman. As I understand your operations, you do not have
to buy any material?
Mr. Fine. We have to buy the backing and the wadding, the cotton
wadding.
The Chairman. The backing?
Mr. Fine. The cotton and the backing of the process. There are
three materials in the process. We buy the back and the center.
The Chairman. I present you here a canceled check in the amount
of $1,000, dated August 10, 1955, payable to the order of Amalgamated
Union, Local 649, 1780 Broadway, New York.
Will you examine that check and state if you identify it?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Fine. This is the check that was presented to the imion.
The Chairman. You presented that to the union ?
Mr. Fine. It was mailed to them.
The Chairman. For what ?
Mr. Fine. As best as I know, for an advertisement in their booklet.
The Chairman. For this advertisement?
Mr. Fine. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know what that advertisement sold for ?
Mr. Fine. Since I met the gentleman that interviewed me in New
York, they showed me that other slip which you have in your hand
which says that that ad should be $500.
3836 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES m THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. I will let this bookl&t be made exhibit No. 10 for
reference.
Do you identify this as the ad you took ?
Mr. Fine. Yes.
The Chairman. The check will be made exhibit No. 10 and that
booklet will be made exhibit No. 11.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 10" which
will be found in the appendix on p. 3977 and No. 11 may be found in
the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. I hand you now a blank form from the Amalgam-
ated Union, Local 649, and ask you to examine it and see what it says.
( A document was handed to the witness. )
The Chairman. What does that blank form state with respect to the
co9t of the ads in this book ?
Mr. Fine. According to the rates listed here, a gold page is $500,
a silver page is $250, a full page is $100, and a half page is $50.
The Chairman. So you got the highest priced ad that they had ?
Mr. Fine. It appears that way, sir.
The Chairman. And paid double for it ?
Mr. Fine. You have the back of it, sir. It is on the other side.
The Chairman. Well, whatever page it is on. That is the highest
price they had?
Mr. Fine. As far as I knew at the time, sir. I don't recall receiving
one of these.
The Chairman. Anyway, they charged you $1,000 for it and they
advertised it for half price.
Mr. Fine. Can I get a rebate ?
The Chairman. Can you explain that?
Mr. Fine. I can't, sir.
The Chairman. In the course of getting the contract — what is the
date of the contract?
Mr. Kennedy. July 1955.
The Chairman. A few days later, you bought this big ad and paid
double for it ?
Mr. Fine. A few days ? I believe a month had passed.
The Chairman. Let us see the date of the contract and check the
date of the check.
The contract is July 5, is that correct? The check is dated in
August.
Are there any further questions?
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to find out why you were so interested in
getting an ad in the dance book for local 649.
Mr. Fine. Actually, in that same book is a competitor of mine.
The Chairman. Let us see his ad, and see what he took?
Mr. Fine. At the time it was a smaller firm. He has a half page.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it gold?
Mr. Fine. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell why you wanted to pay $1,000 to advertise in
the dance book of local 649.
The CiiAiRiNiAN. He got a $50 ad if he got a half page, according
to the advertising here.
Mr. Fine. As I say, I don't recall seeing one of those, sir.
The Chairman. This slip may be made exhibit 12.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 12," for
reference and will be found in the appendix on p. 3978.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3837
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you want to pay $1,000 ?
Mr. Fine. At the time we were asked for an ad and we gave one. I
guess I didn't think of it. It was an advertisement that was asked for,
and that was it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it the undei'standing when you signed the con-
tract which stipulated your employees would get only 85 cents an
hour, was it understood at that time that you would pay $1,000 for
an ad?
Mr. Fine. My employees never received 85 cents an hour and I made
no stipulation.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the contract, that is what it provides, that
3'our employees were to get 85 cents an hour. I am asking you
whether there was an understanding at that time when they said
your employees w^ould only have to get paid 85 cents an hour, was
it understood at that time that you would give them an ad in the dance
book ?
Mr. Fine. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. There wasn't discussion about that ?
Mr. Fine. No, sir, because if it was understood, I would have paid
my men 85 cents an hour and I didn't.
The Chairman. This is the point : At the time you made the con-
tract, did you have any understanding about taking an ad in this —
what is it?
Mr. Fine. It is a souvenir journal.
No, sir. I subsequently learned of their affair in the journal a few
weeks later.
The Chairman. You learned of it a week later? How did you
learn about it?
Mr. Fine. I was approached by one of the men who asked me to
contribute to their journal, and I did.
The Chairman. For $1,000.
Do you regard that as a pretty generous contribution ?
Mr. Fine. I had a pretty nice business at the time, sir. I would
give them three times as much to get my business back to where it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Who approached you on the ad?
Mr. Fine. It might have been Mr. Davidoff. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't recall ?
Mr. Fine. It may have been Mr. Davidoff.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you meet Mr. Dio at all ?
Mr. Fine. No, sir.
Ml'. Kennp:dy. Did you ever meet him ?
Mr. Fine. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you sure of that?
Mr. Fine. If I see the man, I may have seen him, but I don't recall.
If you told me this man was Mr. Dio right now, I would say I
don't know.
The Chairman. All right, sir. You may stand aside.
Are there any other witnesses ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock
Monday afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 47 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., Monday, August 5, 1957.)
(Members ]iresent at the taking of the recess: Senators McClellan
and (rold water.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGE3IENT FIELD
MONDAY, AUGUST 5, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN THE Labor or Management Field,
Washin(/,ton, D. C.
The select committee met at 2 p. m., pursuant to Senate Resolution
74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room. Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senators John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Irving
M. Ives, Republican, New York ; Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South
Dakota; Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona; Carl T. Curtis,
Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Paul J. Tierney,
assistant counsel; Walter R. May, assistant counsel; Ruth Young
Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session were: Senators McClellan, Ives, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. The Chair has 1 or 2 announcements to make.
We received this morning from Mr. Marshall M. Miller, of New
York, a telegram relating to testimony that was heard last week which
resulted in his being discharged by the State legislative committee,
New York State legislative committee on industrial and labor condi-
tions in which capacity he was employed as a consultant. He re-
quested an opportunity to appear before the committee and that
opportunity will be granted him, but the Chair may note that his
complaint, apparently, should be against the New York State legisla-
tive committee.
That is the committee that he was working for and the committee
that discharged him, but under our rule if anyone feels that deroga-
tory testimony has been given against him, that is unfair or that
he desires to explain, we usually grant him an opportunity to appear.
In this instance as in others, we will have to do it at the commit-
tee's convenience. So, because this wire has been given out to the
press, or because the press had information about it, the Chair thought
it would make that announcement.
We have also received another wire from someone whose name was
mentioned, and he denies the implications of the testimony, but he
does not request any opportunity to appear before the committee and
so no action will be taken on that wire.
3839
3840 IMPROPER ACTIVrriES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Is tliere anythinf^ further before we proceed ?
Mr. Kennedy. Just on Max Chester, Mr. Chairnuin.
The Chairman. Mr. Max Chester, a witness subpenaed to be here
today, through his counsel, has requested that his appearance be post-
poned until tomorrow for sufficient reasons, we think, and, therefore,
his testimony will not be heard today.
But he will be expected to be here tomorrow and called tomorrov:
afternoon.
Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. I might explain that we are going into two matters
today, one dealing with the election for the joint council 16 in New
York and the events that preceded it, and this incidentally also in-
volves a man who received a charter from the UAW-AFL, which we
call the bouncing charter and we will have testimony on these two
points today, and our first witness will be a member of the staff, Mr.
Paul Tierney.
The Chairman. Will you come around, Mr. Tierney?
TESTIMONY OF PAUL J. TIERNEY— Resumed
The Chairman. You have been previously sworn ?
Mr. Tierney. I have, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed. Mr.
Tierney is a member of the staff, and he has been previously sworn, in
this series of hearings, and he will remain under the same oath.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to have him identify this document,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The Chair hands you a docmnent entitled, "Ap-
plications for Charter, International Brotherhood of Teamsters,
Chauffeurs, Warehousemen and Helpers of America," dated Novem-
ber 8, 1955, and please examine it and state if you identify it.
Mr. Tierney. I do identify it, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. What is it?
Mr. Tierney. This is an application for a charter which was issued
to local 275, and the application is dated November 8, 1955, for an
organization entitled, "Warehouse and Processing Jurisdiction in
Greater New York Area, New York."
It has on it seven applicants who are Daniel Ornstein, Sam Getlan,
Fred Russell, George Cohan, Martin Smith, Harold Thomas, James
Watkins.
The Chairman. That document may be made exhibit No. V\.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 13" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 3979.)
The Chairman. What does it do? Does it seek a charter and is it
an application for a charter signed by those individuals ?
Mr. Tierney. It is an application for a charter and the names are
typewritten, but it is an application for a charter by those individuals,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Where did we get the document ?
Mr. Tierney. We got it from the offices of the International Broth-
erhood of Teamsters in Washington.
The Chairman. It was in their files ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3841
Mr. TiERNET. That is correct.
The Chairman. Was a charter issued on it, do you know ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, sir, it was.
The Chairman. A charter was issued on that application that you
hold in your hand ?
Mr. Tiernet. That is correct.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Tierney, that is local 275 of the teamsters ;
is that right ?
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And that local according to our chart, shops from
that local came out of 875 of the teamsters, which had been in existence.
Mr. Tierney. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And 875 we will show later, was controlled by Mr.
Tony Ducks Corallo ; is that right ?
Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, the important name on that charter application
that you have just read is what ?
Mr. Tierney. Sam Getlan.
Mr. Kennedy. He was the second name that you read ?
Mr. Tierney. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Thank you. We have another — How do you spell
his name ?
Mr. Tierney. G-e-t-1-a-n.
The Chairman. I hand you another document, photostatic copy of a
letter dated December 1, 1955, addressed to the joint council 16, Martin
T. Lacey, president. New York, signed by Harry DavidofF, secretary-
treasurer of Warehouse and Processors Employees Union Local 258.
Is that the same union that the charter referred to, or the same local ?
Mr. Tierney. No. sir ; it is a different union.
The Chairman. I hand you this document and I ask you to examine
it and see if .you identify it and state what it is.
Mr. Tierney. I do identify this document, Mr. Chairman, and it
is a photostatic copy of a letter dated December 1, 1955, from Local
258, Warehouse and Processors Employees Union, of the teamsters,
and to joint council 16, Mr. Martin T. Lacey, president, listing the
names and titles of officers of local union 258 and requesting that they
be seated as delegates to the joint council 16.
It is signed by Harry Davidoff', secretary-treasurer.
The Chairman. What names appear there ?
Mr. Tierney. The seven officers listed are Sam Getlan, president,
the same spelling as the previous name.
The Chairman. Are they identical with the charter application ?
Mr. Tierney. No, they are not. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Proceed to read them.
Mr. Tierney. The other names in addition to Sam Getlan are
Richard Easton, vice president. Harry Davidoff. secretary-treasurer,
and Manny Baglini, recording secretary, and Anthony Barber;'., trus-
tee, David Koch, trustee, and Charles Kapelowitz, trustee.
The only name that is the same is Sam Getlan, as I recall, the presi-
dent, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right, proceed. That document ma}' be made
exhibit No. 14.
89330— 57— pt. 10 17
3842 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 14" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 3980.)
Mr. Kennedy. There is a distinction between the two kinds of docu-
ments. No. 1 for local 275, that was an application for a charter ; is
that right ?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, that was for local 2Y5. This is a request from
the secretary-treasurer, Harry Davidoff, from local 258, that the offi-
cers of that local be seated ; is that right ?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. In joint council 16, once they were seated, then they
could vote in the election, and this was a request from 258, which is
one of the paper locals, to vote or to have these people seated in the
election.
The Chairman. This reads :
The following are the names and titles of the officers of local union 258, and
same are requested to be seated as delegates to joint council 16.
(At this point. Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. There are 7 names here and each local as we have
pointed out before, would have 7 votes ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And they have seven votes no matter how big the
local is, is that right ?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. And this local at that time had no members.
Mr. TiERNEY. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. This local 258?
Mr TiERNEY. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And they list seven people that would have a right
to vote in the election for the president of the joint council, isn't that
correct ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And that is local 258 over here on our paper locals.
Now, local 258 gave as its address, 10 Park Avenue ; is that right ?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. That is in Mount Vernon, N. Y. ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, this also fits in again and gets into some com-
plications, Mr. Chairman, but we will have to try to go through it.
This 258 lists as its address 10 Park Avenue, Mount Vernon, N. Y.
What local was at that address ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Ten Park Avenue, Mount Vernon, N. Y., was the
address of 228 and it was actually a second address of local 228.
Mr. Kennedy. It was the second address of this local 228 here?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, that local 228 had a new address?
Mr. TiERNEY. That actually was the second or new address.
Mr. Kennedy. Did it have an old address ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did certain of these locals over here give the
old address of local 228 ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, sir; and local 651 of one of the teamsters paper
locals, gave the old address of local 228, on its letterhead.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3843
Mr. Kennedy. Did any other local give an address similar to the
old address of 228 ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes ; local 362 gave an address of 19 Columbia Street
in West Hempstead, which was actually we found out to be a fictitious
address.
]\Ir. Kennedy. So 362 gave a fictitious address, 19 Columbia Street?
Mr. TiERNEY. 119 West Columbia Street in Hempstead.
Mr. Kennedy. Which was the old address of 228 ; is that right ?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is right,
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did 362, which gave the fictitious address, and
651 give the same telephone number ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, they did.
Mr. Kennedy. They both had the same telephone number ?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is right,
Mr. Kennedy. Which was the old address of 228 ?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And did they, in fact, 362 and 651 actually have the
address of 649, and operate out of 649 ?
Mr. TiERNEY. To all intents and purposes they did operate out of
649, although on their letterhead they listed the address in Hemp-
stead, and actually they were paper locals, and were not operating as
such at the time.
The Chairman. At that time, did they have any members ?
Mr. TiERNEY. None that we know of, no ; they didn't.
The CiiAiRiMAN. You are unable to find any members at that time ?
Mr. TiERNEY, Not at that time.
The Chairman, And they were giving these fictitious addresses and
also sending delegates there to be seated and to vote?
Mr, TiERNEY. That is right.
The Chairman. In the Joint Council 16 ?
Mr. TiERNEY, That is right.
The Chairman. All right ; call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr, Sam Getlan.
The Chairman. Will you be sworn first, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr, Getlan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SAM GETLAN
The Chairman. State your name and place of residence, and your
business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Getlan, Sam Getlan, 420 West 206th Street, Manhattan.
The Chairman. Can you speak a little louder ?
Mr, Getlan. 420 West 206th Street, Manhattan.
The Chairman. What is your business or occupation ?
Mr. Getlan. Secretary-treasurer of Coin Machine Employees
Union Local 26.
The Chairman. Local what?
Mr. Getlan. Local 26.
The Chairman. What international is that ?
Mr, Getlan, I didn't hear the question.
3844 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You are secretary-treasurer, you said, I believe of
local 26, of what mternational union ?
Mr. Getlan. International Jewelry Workers Union.
The Chairman. International Jewelry Workers Union ?
Have you talked to members of the staff regarding your testimony ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You know generally then, the line of mterrogation
to expect ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You waive the right of counsel ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right ; thank you.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out as we start
that Mr. Getlan has been sick, and has lost some 50 pounds over a
short period of time and he is not a well man, but he has been answer-
mg the questions of the committee. I would like to point that out
before we start.
The Chairman. He has been cooperating with the staff?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
The Chairman. We will extend you every courtesy and considera-
tion. If you get tired, let us know.
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to have Mr. Getlan identify this.
The CiiAiPtMAN. I hand you here an exhibit to the testimony of this
committee, exhibit No. 13, entitled "An Application for a Charter,''
dated November 8, 1955, and I ask you to examine this document and
state whether you identify it and whether you have ever seen it be-
fore, and give us any information you can about it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Getlan. It is the first time I ever saw it.
The Chairman. The first time you ever saw it ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Your name is on that document?
Mr. Getlan. Yes ; it is on the second line.
The Chairman. Your name appears second on the list of seven
that are applying for a charter.
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. There is no handwriting there?
]Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Tlie Chairman. Did you authorize anybody to place your name on
an application of that kind?
Mr. Getlan. I don't know anything about it.
The Chairman. You know nothing about it?
Mr. Getlan. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy, you can proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. That is for local 275, and you did not apply for that
charter ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not tell anyone they could use your name
in applying for the local, for the charter for 275 ?
Mr. Getlan. I don't know any of the signatures on there, the names
that are on there.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3845
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know any of the other people ?
Mr. Getlan. Not a one.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know of the existence of local 275 ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Milton Levine ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
Mr, Kennedy, Do you know Mr. Irving Slutsky ?
Mr. Getlan. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Sam Zaber ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. They are all officers of that local.
Mr. Getlan. I don't know them.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to have you identify this application
to be seated for the joint council 16, as a representative of local 258.
Again, 258 is one of the paper locals of the teamsters.
The Chairman. The Chair hands you exhibit No. 14, which is a
photostatic copy of a letter from Harry Davidoff, secretary-treasurer
of Local 258, Warehouse and Processing Employees Union, and the
letter is addressed to joint council 16, Martin T. Lacey, president,
dated December 1, 1955, and I will ask you to examine that document
and state if you identify it and what you know about it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(At this point. Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Getlan. It is the first time I have ever seen this letter, and I
don't know anything about it.
The Chairman. What is that?
Mr. Getlan. It is the first time I have ever seen this letter and I
don't knoM^ antyhing about it.
The Chairman. Your name is certified there bj^ Mr. Davidoff as
secretary-treasurer of that local.
Mr. Getlan. As president.
The Chairman. Your name is certified as president of that local?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And asked to be seated as a delegate to Joint
Council 16, which would give you voting rights.
Did you know that you were there as a delegate of that union ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir ; I never knew.
The Chairman. Did you attend the meeting ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir ; I never did.
The Chairman. So again, your name has been used without your
knowledge.
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. You never heard of that local before ?
Mr. Getlan. No.
The Chairman. Did you give any authority for anybody to certify
you as a delegate ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were never consulted about it ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. All right. Thank you.
Senator Mundt. Can you give the committee any explanation that
would help us understand how your name happened to be on there?
Mr. Getlan. I don't know anything about this.
Senator Mundt. You have no idea whatsoever ?
3846 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR PTELD
Mr. Getlan. Absolutely none, and I never attended any election,
and I didn't know I was elected president.
The Chairman. Did you ever function as president of that union
in any way ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir; I was never elected president, as far as I
know.
Senator Ives. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman.
Do you know of any reason why anybody should put you on there
as president ?
Mr. Getlan. Do I know of a reason ?
Senator Ives. Yes.
Mr, Getlan. Absolutely none. They have not got my permission
to do it.
Senator Ives. I gathered they haven't got your permission, but do
you know of any reason why they would do it ?
Mr. Getlan. Well, maybe they needed an officer, and that is all.
Senator Ives. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Getlan, could you tell the committee what the
address is that is used for 256, on which you are listed as president?
Mr. Getlan. 10 Park Avenue, that is my address, that is my phone
number, too. That is where I have my office in local 26.
Mr. Kennedy. So they not only used you as president of a local,
but they used your address and phone number.
Mr. Getlan. Not my home number.
Mr. Kennedy. Your telephone number?
Mr. Getlan. My office number and phone number.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get any mail there for that local?
Mr. Getlan. Yes; I did get mail for that local, and finally I got
tired of the mail and I sent it back. I told the mailman not to
deliver any more mail for the teamsters union at my office.
Mr. Kennedy. That address, was that address for local 228 and
that had been there ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is 228 of the UAW?
Mr. Getlan. Tliat is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you identify this, please?
The Chairman. I hand you what purports to be a photostatic copy
of a letter dated February 2, 1956, from Harry Davidoff, secretary-
treasurer, to joint council 16. It is on Warehouse and Processing
Employees Union, Local 256, Park Avenue, Mount Vernon, N. Y.,
and I will ask you to examine this photostatic copy, and see if you
know anything about it and if you can identify it.
(A document Avas handed to the witness.)
Mr. Getlan. Tliis is all new to me. All of this information where
I am president, I don't know any of the members, either.
The Chairman. Will you read the letter ?
Mr. Getlan (reading) :
In accordance with the order of
It is addressed to the Local Council 16, International Brotherhood
of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen, and Helpers Union of
America, 265 West 14th Street, Room 709, New York, N. Y.
Dear Sib and Brother: In accordance with your letter of January 19, 1956,
we give you below a list of officers of our local union who are eligible to vote
in the joint council election :
EMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3847
Sam Getlan, president ; Richard Easton, vice president ; and Harry Davidoff,
secretary-treasurer ; and Manny Baglini, recording secretary ; Anthony Barbera,
trustee; and David Koch, trustee; and Charles Kapelowitz, trustee.
Fraternally yours,
Harry Davidoff,
Secretary-Treasurer.
The Chairman". Did you attend the meetino; ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir; I don't even know where it was held.
The Chairman. Yon do not even know where it was held ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know any of those other people on there?
Mr. Getlan. I don't know any of tliem.
The Chairman. You do not know any of them ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. You did not attend as a delegate and you did not
vote as such ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know who substituted for you ?
Mr. Getlan. I said I don't know any of them, and I don't know
who substituted, and I wasn't there.
The Chairman. Thank you.
That document may be made exhibit No. 15.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 15" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Senator Mundt. You testified a little earlier that you received mail
addressed to you as president.
Mr. Getlan. Addressed to me at my address, with the teamsters'
local, you understand. I don't rememlaer what local it was, whether
it was 256 or 885, but mail came to my office at 10 Park Avenue, Mount
Vernon, N. Y. We are the only union at 10 Park Avenue.
Senator Mundt. You got the mail. Did you open any of it ?
Mr. Getlan. No.
Senator Mundt. You said you returned it ?
Mr. Getlan. I gave it, or I told the girl to bring it back to the mail-
box— and there is a mailbox hanging on the wall — and put it in the
mailbox.
Senator Mundt. How did you know the mail was not intended for
you if you had the name on it ?
Mr. Getlan. It was addressed to me, at my address, and if it was
addressed to me personally I would open it up. I got tired of opening
it up, and after getting a few letters I got tired of opening the same
letters.
Senator Mundt. So you started getting the letters and you opened
a few of them and you found out that they dealt with the business of
some other union besides yours ; is that right ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right. It was the teamsters' union, and they
are addressing it to them, and it was teamsters' information, and I
could not help them on that.
Senator Mundt. Who were the letters from ?
Mr. Getlan. John English, I believe, the secretary-treasurer of the
teamsters.
Senator Mundt. So that during the first few instances, while you
were receiving the mail and opening it, because you had a perfect
right to open it, and it came to your address, and you have a right to
open that mail
3848 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And you read it and you saw they were talking to
you about the teamsters' business, and it was signed by John English,
whom I suppose you did not know.
Mr. Getlaist. I received a letter from Ohio, or out in California,
about a trucking concern out in that section, coming into my area, and
please see that they are unionized.
Senator Mundt. So you wrapped it back up in an envelope and
sent it back.
Mr. Getlan. I got tired of getting mail in, and I told the mailman,
and he usually comes to the office and I see him about once a week, and
I instructed him, "Do not deliver teamsters' mail here."
(At this point, Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt. Do you remember any other letters, the authors of
any other letters besides Mr. English, and do you remember anybody
else who wrote those letters ?
Mr. Getlan. No ; I don't know. I don't know who any other letters
came from, for the teamsters union.
Senator Mundt. Do you remember, Mr. English ?
Mr. Getlan. I remember that name, English; yes.
Senator Mundt. All right.
The Chairman. The Chair presents to you a photostatic copy of
another letter, dated February 2, 1956, addressed from Harry Davidoff,
secretary-treasurer to joint council 16, and I will ask you to examine
it and state if you know anything about it or you can identify it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Getlan. In other words, that is supposed to be my signature
there, too.
The Chairman. I think not. I think they just filled in your name
there.
Mr. Getlan. They filled it in. I don't know anything about it.
The Chairman. You cannot identify it and you know nothing
about it and you never saw or heard of it before ?
Mr. Getlan. No.
The Chairman. Will you read the letter ?
Mr. Getlan. This is addressed to the Joint Council 16, IBFT, 265
West 14th Street, New York 11, N. Y.
Dear Sib and Buotheb : This will certify that the bearer, Sam Getlan, is an
executive board member of local 258 and is eligible to vote in the joint council
election.
Fraternally yours,
Harby Davidoff,
Secretary-Treasurer.
The Chairman. Did you ever become the bearer of that letter ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
The Chairman. Again, you did not vote ?
Mr. Getlan. Absolutely not.
The Chairman. Tliat letter may be made exhibit No. 16.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 16" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Senator Mundt. I am just wondering, since we have elicited from
the witness the fact that at least John English thought he was presi-
dent of this fictitious local, I am wondering whether our counsel or
IMPROPEil ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3849
staff lias been in contact with Mr. English to find out how he happened
to be of the opinion that this man was president of the local union.
Mr. Kennedy. These documents were furnished, once the interna-
tional granted these charters, originally because of the request of
Jimmy Hoff'a, once the international granted these charters, these
names of people were listed as officers.
Mr. Sam Getlan was one of those, or that name was listed as presi-
dent of local 258, so that all correspondence then, from the inter-
national to 258 would be sent to Mr. Getlan, at this address that had
been given.
Senator Mundt. So that Mr. English's office would have received
this information from the office of Jimmy Hoffa?
Mr. Kennedy, x^o ; we are going to go into exactly how it was done,
Senator, but they received this information from an individual in
New York whose name will come out.
Actually, it is on there now, on the chart, John McNamara. He
came down and the information was given to John English, and to the
international here in Washington, D. C. That is as to who the officers
were going to be.
Senator Mundt. As far as Mr. English was concerned, he was as
badly deceived as the man now on the witness stand ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Mr. Kennedy. As I said, we are going to take up two matters today,
and Mr. Getlan is involved in the second matter, but prior to that
maybe w^e could finish this story as far as Mr. Getlan is concerned by
putting a staff member on, to find out how Mr. Getlan voted.
The Chairman. Will you come around, please ?
Just keep your seat and he may sit there by your side.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not know liow you voted, do you, ISIr.
Getlan ?
Mr. Getlan. I never voted. I never attended the election.
Mr. Kennedy. You voted, Mr. Getlan.
Mr. Getlan. I voted?
TESTIMONY OF PAUL J. TIERNEY— Eesumed
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Tierney, you have been sworn. As
an investigator for this committee, you have heard the testimony of
Mr. Getlan that he did not serve as an officer, and he did not even
know he was an officer, and yet he was appointed a delegate and certi-
fied as such with voting rights to the meeting of joint council 1(). Are
there any comments you have to make from your investigation ?
Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. The votes we are dis-
cussing are the votes of the officers of the seven paper locals. The
local we are discussing here is local 258. The credentials committee
of the joint council prior to the election agreed that each individual
])rior to voting would present a credential.
The Chairman. What ?
Mr. Tierney. Present a credential prior to voting. The 7
paper locals, it was ultimately discovered, cast a total number of votes,
cast a total of 42 votes ; and, by order of the general president, Dave
Beck, these votes from the paper locals were impounded in a vault,
in New York, and not to be counted until it might be determined
3850 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
whether or not the votes would actually affect the outcome of the
election.
The Chairman. His was 1 of the votes of the 7 paper locals?
Mr. TiERNEY. That is right.
The Chairman. Mr. Getlan's was, as far as the documentation is
concerned ?
Mr. Tierney. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And these votes were to be deposited, or in other
words held in escrow until it was determined whether they were
needed ?
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
The Chairman. If they were not needed, they would not be used;
and, if they were, then these phony votes would be thrown in.
Mr. Tierney. That is correct. We examined the credentials and
the votes which were together in the vault, in New York.
The Chairman. Are they in possession of a court now ?
Mr. Tierney. No; the credentials we have are not in the court.
They were impounded by orders of the general president and not in
the possession of the court and never were.
The Chairman. Impounded by order of whom?
Mr. Tierney. The general president of the teamsters, Mr. Dave
Beck. We examined the votes, and the credentials which accom-
panied them, and there were 42 credentials and 42 votes cast. We
could only assume that the credentials pertained to the actual votes
which were cast. All 42 votes were cast for John O'Rourke.
The Chairman. That is for president of the joint council ?
Mr. Tierney. For president of the joint council. One of the cre-
dentials there presumably was issued to Sam Getlan, so we
can safely presume it was Sam Getlan or an individual using his
credentials voted in the election.
The Chairman. In other words, this certificate of authority to vote
which has been made exhibit No. 16, I believe, you found that there ?
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
The Chairman. There were 42 votes cast, and this is one of the
certifications of voting rights ?
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
The Chairman. And it would take the vote on tliis certificate to
make up the 42 that were authenticated and authorized to vote?
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
The Chairman. The record does not show, then, other than the
name of Mr. Getlan, as being present and voting. In other words,
the record — there is nothing in the record to reflect who else may have
cast the vote for him, or in his name ?
Mr. Tierney. Nothing in the record.
The Chairman. You know someone did, because
Mr. Tierney. We know someone cast the vote, but we don't know
who cast the vote.
The Chairman. From the record, there are 42 certifications and 42
votes cast?
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
The Chairman. And his name was one of those that was certified
as a right to vote ?
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
The Chairman. There were 42 votes ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3851
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is there anything else ?
Mr. IvENXEDY. Somebody, either Sam Getlan voted or someone
voted for him.
Mr. TiERNEY. Someone voted, because there were 42 votes cast, and
there were 42 credentials, and someone voted, either Mr. Getlan or
somebody else.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Someone in his name ?
Mr. TiERNEY. Someone in his credential.
Mr. I^NNEDY. And he has testified, of course, that he didn't vote,
so somebody else voted in Mr. Sam Getlan's name.
Mr. TiERNEY. That is correct.
The Chairman. You may stand aside for the present.
Mr. Kennedy. Now we are going on to local 228 of the UAW, Mr.
Chairman.
TESTIMONY OF SAM GETLAN— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. You were an officer of 228 ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, I would like to have some preliminary ex-
planation of 228 by a member of the staff, if Mr. Getlan could step
aside.
The Chairman. All right; have the member of the staff come
around.
You liave not been previously sworn, have you ?
Mr. ]May. No, sir.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and noMiing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. May. I do.
The Chairman. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF WALTER R. MAY
The Chairman. State your name and place of residence and your
business or occupation and your present employment.
Mr. May. I am Walter R. May, Arlington, Mass., assistant coun-
sel. United States Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities
in the Labor or Management Field.
The Chairman. Counsel suggests you give some of your back-
ground, briefly, for the record.
Mr. JNIay. Mr. Chairman, I served in the Navy Air Corps during
the war and I attended Boston University Law School, and entered
the FBI in 1948. I left the FBI in 1954, and I worked for a period
with the Boston Post, in Massachusetts.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. You are familiar with this situation regarding the
UAW-AFL locals ?
Mr. May. Yes, sir ; I am.
Mr. Kennedy. And you are familiar particularly with Local 228
of the UAW-AFL?
Mr. May. Yes, sir; I am.
3852 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. These were locals that Avere chartered under Mr.
Johnny Dio ; is that correct ?
Mr. May. That is correct.
Mr. IvENNEDY. In New York City, is that right ?
Mr. May. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did you identify for the committee Mr. An-
thony Doria ?
Mr. May. Anthony Doria is secretary-treasurer, international sec-
retary-treasurer of the Allied Industrial Workers of America.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, the Allied Industrial Workers of America is
what used to be the UAW-AFL ; is that right ?
Mr. ]VL\Y. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. They changed their name during 1956, to the Allied
Industrial Workers of America ?
Mr. May. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. And we had some correspondence regarding local
228 with Mr. Anthony Doria ?
Mr. May. Yes, sir ; we did.
The Chairman. Did he furnish you certain documents ?
Mr. May. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAiR]\rAN. And responded in request to letters that you di-
rected to him ?
Mr. ]\Iay. That is correct.
The Chairman. I hand you a document here that appears to be a
photostatic copy of a document entitled "Local 228," and I ask you to
examine this particular document, photostatic copy, and see if you
identify it, and if so, state what it is.
Mr. May. Mr. Chairman, I identify this exhibit by letter dated
December 29, 1956, the committee requested certain information.
The Chairman. Dated what date ?
Mr. May. December 29, 1956, and we requested information from
Mr. Doria concerning certain locals, UAW locals.
The Chairman. That was the other committee requesting it, the
Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations ?
Mr. May. Yes, sir; and this particular document is that portion of
Mr. Doria's answer, return letter, which pertains to local 228.
The Chair]man. All right. It may be made exhibit No. 17.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you read the pertinent parts ?
The Chairman. It may be printed in the record, but you may read
the pertinent parts of it.
Mr. May. We requested certain items of information from Mr.
Doria. First we asked for a photostatic copy of the original request
for the charter, for local 228. Mr. Doria replied :
This local never became active, and since the charter was issued on November 9,
1953, all records of this local union have been destroyed as far as the interna-
tional office is concerned. For this reason, no photostatic copy of the charter
application can be furnished.
The Chairman. What information do we have as to when the char-
ter was applied for ?
Mr. May. I don't believe we have information concerning that, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. I understand the charter had been granted in No-
vember of 1953.
EMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3853
Mr. Mat. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And in the meantime. Mr. Doria reports in his
letter to you and in reply to the letter from the committee, that the
union never became active.
Mr. Mat. That is correct.
The Chairman. And that all records regarding it and the inter-
national had been destroyed?
Mr. Mat. That is true.
The Chairman, Are there any further questions ?
Mr. Kknnedt. That is the important part of that. Go ahead.
Mr. Mat. Later in this same document, Mr. Doria in answer to an-
other query stated :
The local never became active ; local is not active now. Tlie charter was with-
drawn and canceled, and local 228 is no longer in existence, and it has not been
in existence since approximately 1955.
The Chairman. He reported in 1956, that it had not been active
since Avhen ?
Mr. Mat. It had never been active. And he said the charter was
withdrawn and canceled and local 228 is no longer in existence, and
it has not been in existence approximately since 10/55. Although he
says it never became active.
Tlie Chairman. And all records regardino; it had been destroyed?
Mr. Mat. That is true.
Mr. Kexnedt. The second point that is important, is that he says
in there that the charter v»'as withdrawn, and canceled in approxi-
mate! v 1955.
Mr. Mat. In the previous paragraph, ]Mr. Doria also said :
This local union was dissolved, and the charter withdrawu some time in 1955.
Mr. Kexnedt. Those two things are of particular note.
The (^HAiR.AiAN. That document may be printed in full in the record
at this point.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit Xo. 17,'' and is as
follows :)
1. Photostatic copy of original request for charter. (This local never became
active and since the charter was issued on November 9, 19.58, all records of this
local union have been destroyed as far as the international office is conceincd.
For this reason no photostatic copy of charter application can he furnished.)
2. I'hotostatic copy of the ori.uinal charter issued to this local. ( Local union
not in existence, no charter in existence.)
.3. The identity of all officers or organizers on record with the International
since the original chartering of this local. (The internationnl office retaiiis no
records listing people who were associ-ited with this local union.)
4. The date and nature of any action taken by the International with respect
1o any New York area local which affected its charter such as the revocation
or suspension thereof. (This local was also suspended and the charter i-evoked
by action of former President Washburn on April 22, 10.")4, but although Vue
local union still had not attained active status, the charter was again reinstated
on or about May 11, 1951. The local union was dissolved and the charter with-
drawn sometime in 1955.)
5. A statement as to this local with respect to whether or not it is presently
active, inactive, and/or dormant. If inactive or doi'mant. how long in such a
status? Is the charter still outstanding, or has it been canceled? (Local never
became active — local is not active now — the charter was withdrawn and canceled
and local No. 228 is no longer in existence and has not been in existence since
approximately 19.55.)
(>. The listed address of each local whether active or inactive. (Local not in
existence, no records available.)
3854 IMPROPER AcnvrriES m the labor field
]Mr. Kennedy. In view of the statement by Mr. Doria, that that
local union 228 never became active, would you identify this docu-
ment, please?
The Chairman. I hand you a photostatic copy of a document en-
titled, "Labor Oro-anization Registration Form, Public Law 101, 80th
Congress," and ask you to examine it and state if you identify it, and
if so, what it is and where you procured it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. May. Tliis is a copy of a labor-organization registration form
dated June 8, 1954, which carries a signature, Sidney Hodes, financial
secretary and treasurer. We received this document from our Depart-
ment of Labor.
Tlie Chairman. That is a photostatic copy of a document in the
Department of Labor, official document?
Mr. May. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. May. It would be well to point out that here they give the
full name of the orsfanization as the Ignited Automobile Workers
[Tnion, Local 228, AFL. They list the address as 119 West Columbia
Street, Hempstead, Long Island, and they give the international union
us United Automobile Workers, AFL, Milwaukee, Wis.
The officers are listed as George Doyle, president, Sidney Hodes as
secretary-treasurer, and Paul Newman, recording secretary.
The Chairman. AVhat is the date of that ?
Mr. May. That is June 8, 1954.
The Chairman. Well now, according to the testimony, or accord-
ing to the report of Mr. Doria, the charter for 228 of that local had
never been active.
Mr. May. That is correct.
The Chairman. And it had never been activated.
Mr. IVLvY. That is right.
The Chairman. And he claims that the charter was withdrawn in
1955.
Mr. May. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. AYliat does that indicate, that it was active, and
that they were making reports under it ?
Mr. May. This is simply evidence that a charter was issued and
three individuals at least were involved, and they did have a presi-
dent, secretary, and a recording secretary, and we shall show later
that that becomes pertinent because of a change of officers, a total
change of the charter.
The Chairman. That is a report required to be filed under law,
under Public Law 101, 80th Congress.
Mr. May. Yes.
The Chairman. It was complying or it was functioning, and it was
filing reports required under the law, as of that date, 1954?
Mr. May. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Does it also show a salary there for one of the
officers ?
Mr. May. It shows $5,200 for President George Doyle.
Mr. Kennedy. Does it show how he came to be president of the
local ?
Mr. May. In answer to the question "How selected?" it shows
"elected" for all three officers.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD 3855
Mr. Kennedy. Who are the other two ?
Mr. May. Sidney Hodes, secretary-treasurer, and Paul Newman,
recording secretary.
Mr. Kennedy. And it shows they all three were elected, is that
right ?
Mr. May. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Now Sidney Hodes is of some importance to us, is
he not, in this investigation ?
Mr. May. He is.
Mr Kennedy. He came out of local 649.
Mr. May. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dio's own local.
Mr. May. That is right.
The Chairman. That document may be made exhibit No. 18 for
reference.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 18" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 3981, 3982.)
Mr. Kennedy. At this time, the local supposedly was inactive, at
least one of the officers was getting a salary of $5,200, and three of
the officers were elected to their positions.
Mr. May. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And you gave as the address, 119 West Columbia
Street, Hempstead, Long Island?
Mr. May. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the address that was given by the two paper
locals of 362 and 651.
Mr. May. That is correct.
The Chairman. I hand you another similar document, photostatic
copy of labor organization registration form under Public Law 101,
80th Congress, and ask you to examine it and state if you identify it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. May. I identify this as a copy of a labor organization registra-
tion form dated September 18, 1955, carrying the signature of Sam
Getlan, secretary-treasurer. We received this also from the Depart-
ment of Labor.
The Chairman. That is another report required under the law, and
it is on the same form as the one you previously testified to ?
Mr. May. That is right.
The Chairman. It appears that they were reporting as late as Sep-
tember 18, 1955, on this same local, 228.
Mr. May. That is correct. Although this document differs in many
respects from the previous document.
The Chairman. Point out who it is reported as officers of 228 at
that time, a year later than the previous report.
Mr. May. At this time, Sam Weiss is shown as president, total
compensation and allowances for the year, $6,250.
And this document shows that Mr. Weiss was elected.
Sam Getlan is shown as secretary-treasurer, total compensation
and allowances, $8,840, and elected.
Caneo Trotta, shown as recording secretary, total compensation and
allowances for the year — none.
He was elected.
Also, we note that the full name of the organization differs from
the previous document. Is is shown as Coin Machine Employees
3856 IMPROPER ACTIVmES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Union, Local 228, AFL. The address is sliown as 10 Park Avenue,
Mount Vernon, N. Y., and the parent or international union is shown
as United Automobile Workers of America, AFL, Washington, D. C.
The Chairman. Is that the same charter or reported under the
same charter?
Mr. Mat. Evidence will be brought out later, Mr. Chairman, which
will show it is the same charter.
The Chairman. It is the same number and affiliated with the same
international ?
Mr. May. That is right.
The Chairman. Although it shows a different set of officers a year
later, and different salaries, and it shows they were all elected, just
as the other set of officers were elected.
Mr. May. That is true.^
The Chairman. And it also is under the same charter?
Mr. May. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And it shows that it was active at least as late as
September 8, 1955.
Mr. May. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It is operating, whether the international knew
about it or not.
Mr. May. That is correct.
The Chairman. And it was filing reports required under the law.
Mr. May. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
This may be made exhibit No. 19.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 19" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on pp. 3983-3984.)
TESTIMONY OF SAM GETLAN— Resumed
The Chairman. Mr. Getlan, you have heard the testimony there,
that you received a salary of $8,840, salary and allowances in 1955, as
secretary-treasurer of local 228, that we have been talking about.
Did you receive such salary ?
Mr. Getlan. I don't believe so. Let me see a pencil and paper.
That is $8,800 and what?
The Chairman. $8,840.
Mr. Getlan. It is possible that I drew that much.
The Chairman. Well, you had gotten ahold of the charter at that
time.
Mr. Getlan. With the expenses, that is.
The Chairman. It included expenses ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It is possible that you drew that much ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. I may state that this is the charter that we have
been calling the "bouncing charter," and did it bounce to you ?
Mr. Getlan. It did.
The Chairman. How did you get it?
Mr. Getlan. I got it from the teamsters union, at one time, and
it was presented to me, and I was operating independently prior to
that. I needed an AFL charter.
The Chairman. Did you apply for one ?
rMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3857
Mr. Getlan. I did.
The Chairman. How did you apply ?
Mr. Getlan. Through same people that I knew.
The Chairmax. Well, let us have their names.
You didn't file a formal application to the AFL?
Mr. Getlan. No ; I didn't.
The Chairman. To the United Automobile Workers ?
Mr. Getlan. No.
The Chairman. You didn't send in a formal application applying
for a cliarter ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
The Chairman. But you dealt through some other people?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. Let us talk about it.
Go ahead.
Mr. Getlan. I Avas operating independently prior to that for a
couple of years, and I was with the CIO prior to that, a couple of
years before, and I iiotified people that I know I am working without
a cliarter. Well, this one could liave gotten me this charter, and finally
somebody told me about the UAW charter. They said come down
to the teamsters office in New York City, between 57th and 58th
Street I received this charter.
The Chairman. From whom ?
Mr. Getlan. From local 805.
The Chairjman. That is from local 805. Was that a teamsters
union ?
Mr, Getlan. Yes.
The Chairman. Tlie local couldn't operate without some individual
operating for it. Who gave you the charter ?
Mr. Getlan. I do not know — who gave it to him, I don't know.
The Chairman. I did not say who gave it to him. Who did you
get it from ?
Mr. Getlan. I got it from a Mr, Holt of local 805, secretary-
treasurer.
The Chairman. Mihon Holt ?
Mr, Geti.an, Yes,
The Chairman, Secretary-treasurer of what ?
Mr. Getlan. Local 805 of the teamsters.
The Chairman, Did he have any other spare charters laying
around ?
Mr. Getlan. No ; he had this one lying around, and he said, "Here,
take it." It was in a frame. It was all framed up.
The Chairman. Was it for sale ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
The Chairman. How did 3^011 get it ?
Mr, Getlan. "Here, improve your membership." That is all.
"Here is a cliarter to work with."
The Chairman. He just handed you a charter in a frame?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. And you went to work on it?
Senator Mundt. Had you ever met Mr. Holt before that date?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
89330— 57— pt. 10 18
3858 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. Tell us your background or connections with him.
Had he been a member of your union ?
Mr. Getlan. No; he was secretary-treasurer of local No. 805.
Senator Muxdt. I understand. But what was your personal con-
nection with him ?
Mr. Getlan. He handled the cigarette coin machines in New York
City, and I handled the coin machines out of New York City.
Senator Mundt. By handling them, do you mean you owned the
machines or that you worked with the men who operated them and
had a union in that ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right, the coin employees.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Holt had a union that included the coin
machine collectors and repairmen?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And that was in New York City. You had a union
which handled the same type of personnel outside ?
Mr. Getlan. From Westchester County up.
Senator Mundt. So in that way you had become acquainted ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And you went to him and said, "I would like to
have a charter for my union outside of New York City" ; is that right ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And he said, "I happen to have a spare one here" ?
Mr. Getlan. No ; it was never mentioned to me what I have got or
what I am going to get.
Senator Mundt. You must have arrived at a meeting of minds
some way where you walked out with a framed charter. How did you
get that?
]Mr. Getlan. I got a framed charter, and that was it.
Senator Mundt. Without any mention at all? You just tucked it
under your coat on your way out of the door ?
]Mr. Getlan. He said, "Take it with you." I hung it up on the wall
and that was it.
Senator Mundt. It sounds a little mysterious. I want to get this
clear.
Senator Curtis. ^'\'lien was that?
Mr. Getlan. 1955.
Senator Mundt. You walked into the office and said, "I am one
charter short. I have the union, but I haven't got a charter. I would
like to get a charter." Is that what you told him ?
Mr. Getlan. I was working without a charter. I was working in-
dependently.
Senator Mundt. You said you did not want to be independent, you
wanted an organization?
Mr. Geti.an. That is right. I wanted a father and mother.
Senator Mundt. You said, "Mr. Holt, what shall I do about that?"
and what did he do?
Mr. Getlan. He helped me get a charter. About 5 or 6 months
elapsed.
Senator Mundt. You did not get it at the first meeting ?
Mr. Getlan. No. I got a telephone call to come down with "Here is
your charter."
Senator Mundt. How did he advance himself out of that?
IMPROPEiR ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3859
Mr. Getlan". Just improving the membership, that is all, with "Go
out and go to work."
Senator Mundt. You did not pay him anything for the charter?
Mr. Getlan. Absolutely not.
Senator Mundt. You did not promise him anything ?
Mr. Getlan. Nothing.
Senator Mundt. You did not vote for any of his friends?
Mr. Getlan. I had nothing to do with him. He was the teamsters
union and I was a UAW charter.
Senator Mundt. You got that in 1955 ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. That was the charter we have been hearing about
this afternoon as having been canceled ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right. I didn't know it until the investigation
came out.
Senator Mundt. You did not know that what you had was •
Mr. Getl.\n. That my charter is a canceled charter.
Senator Mundt. Anyhow, you took it in good faith ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And you put your members into the union ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And you paid your dues ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right. I transferred them
Senator Mundt. Out of the dues, you got a salary and your ex-
penses ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. What did you do with the portion of the dues that
belonged to the international union ?
Mr. Getlan. I didn't pay no per capita tax.
Senator Mundt. You just collected the dues and kept them yourself ?
Mr. Getlan. Well, it was put in the union. It was union funds.
Checks were mailed into the union, and salaries were drawn, service
was given the members, and so forth.
Senator Mundt. What did the international union get ?
Mr. Getlan. The international didn't get anything.
Senator Mundt. They got nothing ?
Mr. Getlan. That is ridit.
There wasn't anything for them after expenses.
Senator Mundt. You fellows took care of that. The money came in
and out it went and that was all right.
Mr. Getlan. There was enough salaries to be taken out, and
expense.
Senator Mundt. What did you do at convention time ? Did you go
to the convention ?
Mr. Getlan. I didn't.
Senator Mundt. Did you take this old, dilapidated charter with
the cancellation notice on it and vote ? How long did you operate with
the charter ?
Mr. Getlan. About 3 months.
Senator Mundt. Three months ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator INIundt. Then what did you do with it ?
Mr. Getlan. Then I changed over to local 26 of the International
Jewelry Workers.
3860 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. What did you do with the old charter ?
Mr. Getlan. I sent it back to Mr. Holt.
Senator Mundt. You sent it back to Mr. Holt ? f
Mr. Getlan. In the same frame.
Senator Mundt. In the same frame. Why did you change ? Why
did you switcli from that charter to the jewelry workers' charter?
Mr. Getlan. It was just
Senator Mundt. It was a pretty good system. You did not have
to pay per capitji tax. The money came in and you used up this
money. That was ;; very convenient arrangement. What induced you
to change ?
Mr. Getlan. I didn't like anything I got for free.
Senator Mundt. Did not like what?
Mr. Getlan. Didn't like anything I got for free.
Senator Mundt. Well, you took it for free to begin with. Did it
take you 90 days to decide you did not want it for free?
Mr. Getlan. It wasn't worth it.
Senator Mundt. In what way was it not worth it?
Mr. Getlan. The service I got wasn't worth it.
Senator Mundt. The service from whom ?
Mr. Getlan. The service from the international.
Senator Mundt. It was wortli all you paid for it. You did not pay
anything. If you felt badly about that, how do you suppose the inter-
national felt? We could dilate on that a little further. I cannot see
how you would complain too seriously about the service. Wliat spe-
cific service had you re(j[uested and had been unable to get? Get down
to cases hei-e, if you are going to complain. You were complaining
a,bout what ?
Mr. Geti.an. Well, you are entitled to something. If you don't pay
nothing, you are not entitled to it, that is right. You are not entitled
to nothing.
Senator Mundt. You got all you were entitled to ?
Mr. Getlan. Well, that is what they gave me.
Senator Mundt. All right. You decided, then, after 90 days, that
you were not getting your money's worth, though you paid nothing
for it, so you took the charter back ?
Mr. Getlan. I delivered it to the same office. I had it delivered
to the same office. I sent it down by messenger.
Senator Mundt. What reason did you give Mr. Holt? Did you
complain to him about the service you were not getting?
Mr. Getlan. I guess I did.
Senator Mundt. Did you send him a letter of complaint?
Mr. Getlan. No.
Senator Mundt. It was oral ?
Mr. Getlan. I called him up and I told him I had no use for the
charter, and I was able to get another charter from the International
Jewelry Workers.
Senator Mundt. That is the last you ever heard of the charter of
228?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. When you got this charter in 1955, how many mem-
bers did you have in your union, approximately?
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3861
Mr. Getlax. a little over 100 members.
Senator Curtis. Where were they employed ?
Mr. Getlan. They were employed in Westchester or above.
Senator Curtis. Were all of them employees or were some of them
owners of coin-box machines ?
Mr. Getlaist. Some were owners.
Senator Curtis. You approached owners for membership in your
union ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were some of those owners individuals who had
no employees ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right. You see, we do not force a man to
employ anyone where he don't operate enough machines to have an
employee. Pie is taken in as an employee member of the union.
Senator Curtis. You had 100 members. Where did that union
hold its meetings?
Mr. Getlan. It held its meetings at diffierent places. In New-
burgh, N. Y., or down in Mount Vernon, at a hotel.
Senator Curtis. In a meeting hall ?
Mr. Getlan. At a hotel, at a meeting hall in a hotel.
Senator Curtis. Plow many people would you get out ?
Mr. Getlan. You would get about 10 to 15 members who would
come in.
Senator Curtis. Did you have a meeting any time during the time
you had this charter ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you show the charter to the members?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Whose names were on the charter?
Mr. Gett.an. I do not know.
Senator Curtis. You knew that it was not your name?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir ; my name was not on it, and none of my em-
ployees.
Senator Curtis. The names of none of your members were on it?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. In fact, anyone who looked at it would have known
it was not a charter issued to you or to your union, would they not ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Senator I\^s. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ivtes. I would like to continue the questioning along the
line of where these employees lived.
You said Westchester or above, Mr. Getlan, and then you mentioned
Newburgh. It that the only place?
Mr. Getlan. Newburgh, Middletown, through Orange County.
Senator Ives. Sullivan County ?
Mr. Getlan. Sir?
Senator Ives. Sullivan County, too ?
Mr. Getlan. Sullivan County.
Senator IvEJs. Do you mean you had 100 employees scattered in all
that area ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right, in that area.
3862 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives. That is quite a large area for 100 people to be living
in. li'ou could not have had many employees in any one spot.
Mr. Gett.an. You got 2 in Sullivan County or 3 in Sullivan County.
Senator Ives. Just three in Sullivan County?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Ives. What did they do in Sullivan County?
Mr. Geti^ax. They repaired machines for different operators in
Sullivan County.
Senator Ives. How many did you have in Orange County?
Mr. Gett.an. In Orange County I know we got 1 member that
employs, a boss in Orange County that employs 10 workers.
Senator Ives. You had one member in Orange County?
Mr. Getlan. You see, 1 worker can service 60 machines.
Senator Ives. Well, that one member is in Newburgh, I take it?
Mr. Getlan. No, he is out of Chester, N. Y.
Senator Ives. What?
Mr. Getlan. He is out of Chester, N. Y.
Senator I\i:s. How many members did you have in Newburgh?
Mr. Getlan. In Newburgh about four members out of Newburgh.
Senator Ives. Did you have anybody in Dutchess?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir. And out of Poughkeepsie.
Senator Ives. How many ?
Mr. Geit.an. We got maybe 5 or 6.
Senator Ives. Then you were sprinkled around there, were you
not?
Mr. Getlan. We go all through your area.
Senator I\^s. My area ? Where do you think I live ? I live ni) at
Chenango.
Mr. Getlan. You live in that area.
Senator Ives. A little bit north of that.
Did you have anybody up in there? How far west did you go?
Did you go as far west as Buffalo?
Mr. Getlan. No. We tried to organize not that far up, liut around
Schenectady and Troy and Amsterdam.
Senator Ives. I do not live up in there.
Mr. Getlan. Up through Albany County.
Senator Ives. I do not live up there.
Is that as far as you went ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Senator Ives. Thank you.
The Chairman. What amount of dues did you charge these men?
Mr. Getlan. Dues was $5 a month.
The Chairman. $5 a month, and none of that went to any inter-
national or to any council ?
Mr. Getlan. That was while I was with the UAW it didn't go.
The Chairman. You charged $5 a month ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. And with 100 members you Avere getting about
$500 a month income.
Mr. Getlan. Well, there is other charges, also.
The Chairman. You added some to that?
Mr. Getlan. They pay per machine.
The Chairman. How much after the $5 dues was it per machine?
Mr. Getlan. It is 50 cents per month per machine.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3863
The Chairman. Fifty cents per month per machine.
So that is the way you got the income to pay the officers ?
Mr. Getlax. That is right.
The CiiAiRMAN. And you were one of the officers ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. Was any other money expended other than for a
little stationery ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes. There was a girl in the office and there were
two men working, to go out on service calls.
The Chairman. To go out on service calls ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right. Organizational work.
The Chairman. All the good it did was to provide a job and salary
for some 4 or 5 ?
Mr. Getlan. That is about all that would take care of the union.
The Chairman. That is the only benefit that came from it, it just
provided jobs for 2 or 3 of you ?
Mr. Getlan. About three men.
The Chairman. About three men ?
Mr. Getlan. There was three men on salary, and a girl in the office.
The Chairman. You accumulated no surplus for pension funds or
anything ?
Mr. Getlan. No. We had no pension fund and no welfare fund.
The Chairman. Just enough to support the officers ?
Mr. Getlan. That is all it did.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. I am interested in these businessmen, these em-
ployers who belong to your union. You said some of them did not
have any employees. What services could the union render to a
proprietor who has no employees ?
Mr. Getlan. You see, he becomes the employee.
Senator Curtis. And he must negotiate with himself; is that the
point?
Mr. Getlan. He becomes a member of the union as an employee.
Senator Curtis. And you could help him get a pay raise, if he
owned the establishment and belonged to the union? You could help
him get a pay raise ; is that right ?
Mr. Getlan. As far as that goes, you see, this service— —
Senator Curtis. Could you help him get a pay raise, if he owned
the place?
Mr. Getlan. He don't own the place.
Senator Curtis. Well, if he is the proprietor, he owns the business.
Mr. Getlan. He is an operator. You see, a coin-machine operator
is different. He is not stationary in one place. He services quite
a few places.
Senator Curtis. And if he has no employees, he is a businessman.
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Curtis. And working for himself.
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You could not get him a raise in pay, you could
not get him more vacation, you could not improve his working con-
ditions. What inducement was there for him to join the union?
Mr. Getlan. In order to keep his locations.
Senator Curtis. Sort of a licensing thing?
3864 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES LST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Getlan. It is not a licensing thing.
Senator Curtis. Not ofiicially, but by paying money to your union,
he could keep his locations ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Curtis. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Getlan. Nobody would jump his locations, a nonunion man
wouldn't jump his locations because he happens to be a member of
the same union.
Senator Curtis. "Wliy would not a nonunion man jump his loca-
tion?
Mr. Getlan. In the first place, he couldn't give them a better
machine. They work on better types of machines. A newer jukebox,
that will cost $1,200 or $1,400. To work for $10 or $12 a week, it
would take him a couple of years' time to get the money out.
Senator Curtis. In other words, it was sort of a dividing up of the
territory.
Mr. Getlan. He was what ?
Senator Curtis. By joining the union, the territory would be di-
vided up so he would have a place to operate, is that right ?
Mr. Getlan. He don't pick his territory. If he lived in Pough-
keepsie, he is going to operate as close to Poughkeepsie as possible. If
he has 25 locations, we do not compel him to employ or to get a worker,
you see. As long as he can repair his own machines and service his
own machines, he is not compelled to get a worker.
Senator Curtis. ^Vliat would happen to him if he did not want to
join the union ?
Mr. Getlan. Nothing would happen to him.
Senator Curtis. What would happen to his locations?
Mr. Getlan. Nothing. Follow me, he could get
Senator Curtis. "Wliat service, then, did a seii-employed business-
man get out of joining your union?
Mr. Getlan. It would prevent other operators from going into his
locations and offering better percentages to get in there.
Senator Curtis. That is what I mean. So you divided up the terri-
tory, is that right ?
Mr. Getlan. Well
Senator Curtis. And you would give him a chance-
Mr. Getlan. I would say a man from Westchester County don't
go into Sullivan County. It is too far for him to travel.
Senator Curtis. Then he did not get anything out of it?
Mr. Getlan. The man stays in his own county.
Senator Curtis. Because he joins the union no one else comes in?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator IVIundt. If I may pursue this inquiry another way, who
got anything out of this operation except you three fellows who were
the officers?
Mr. Getlan. The service he got that nobody would jump his lo-
cations or canvass his locations once he is in there.
Senator Mundt. That would apply to the owner-operator?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. You had members who were not owner-operators.
You had mechanics, did you not?
Mr Getlan. That is right.
IMPROPER ACTWITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3865
Senator Mundt. Wliat benefits did they get from joining tiie union,
paying $5 a month dues, $60 a year out of tlie hoiisehohl budget?
Wliat benefits did they get ?
Mr. Getlax. They got a job. or in other words, tliey got it in .sahiry
and commission from the operator.
Senator Mundt. They could liave liad tlie job without joining the
miion, could they not ?
Mr. Getlan. They could have had the jol) witliont joiniiig the
union ?
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. Getlax. The bosses do not compel the men to join the union,
but it is for their benefit that they are in the union.
Senator Muxdt. I am trying to find out what beneiits they got in
belonging to the union. That was the purpose of my question.
Mr. (xETLi^x. Their wages wei-e better, coniniissions were l)e.tter, by
being in the union.
Senator Muxdt. Are the employers interested in setting u;) :! union
arrangement so that the employees get more money and tliey liave to
pay bigger wages, bigger benefits (
Mr. Getlax. They are interested in being in tlie union, being
unionized.
Senator Muxdt. Well, if they are as bighearted as tiiat, these
employers, they could make the lienefits available without the union.
The employer that wants to be good to his employee does not neces-
sarily say "You have to belong to the union, and pay $5 a month dues
to union officers, and if yon do that I will give you an extra week's
vacation."
lie could say, "Here, you can have your extra weelv's vacation and
keep your $5 a week also." That would i-eally be being good.
Mr. Getlax. Well, we have had the un.ion in New York City for
3^ears. I \vasn't the first on.e that started the union. It has been
unionized
Senator Muxdt. I understand if they belong to the legitimate union,
with international affiliates, then they are part of a regular organiza-
tion of that type. The l>enefits can pi-obably be secured for the em-
ployee. But I cannot understand how 1()() memlx^rs of a union paying
$5 a month to belong to a union without a charter, without any inter-
national connection, without any benefits coming back — I do not see
where they come in.
I think he is at the low end of the totem ])ole. AVhat do you think?
Mr. Getlax'. I don't think you are right, though.
Senator Muxdt. Well, would you try to convince me why you think
I am wrong?
Mr. Getlax. The benefits we give the people, the membei'S, nobody
goes out looking to jump their locations. They stay in their own
area. A certaiii workers, those canvassing locations, he don't canvass
a man that has a union label on his machine. He knows they are
unionized. That is what counts.
Senator Muxdt. Did the workers who ])aid this $5 a month monthly
dues know that they belonged to a bobtail union that did not have any
connections any higher up than your office ?
Mr. Getlax. Why is it a bobtail office ?
Senator Muxdt. Because it has no international connection. It is
short-circuited at vour office.
3866 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Getlan. No. We belong to the International Jewelry Workers.
Senator Mundt. I am talking about the time you belonged to the
union and bought the secondhand charter.
Mr. Getlan. We operated independently. We give them the same
service as if we operated out of an international service, whatever they
could get from there. We would give them the same service.
(At this point, Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Getlan. We give them the same service they would get any-
where else.
Senator Mundt. You said that Mr. Holt was head of that union ?
Mr. Getlan. I. B. of T., the teamsters.
Senator Mundt. I wonder if counsel can tell us something about
Mr. Holt.
Mr. Kennedy. About Mr. Milton Holt?
President of local 805 is Mr. A. Gordon. Mr. Abe Gordon and
Johnny Dioguardi are very close. Local 805 headquarters were used
by Dio as a headquarters for himself. A. Gordon is not only president
of this local, but he also runs a trucking firm. That is about A. Gordon.
Local 651 of the teamsters. Senator Mundt, is A. Gordon's brother,
Nat Gordon, and they received a charter from the teamsters just prior
to this election in February of 1956. Their charter was granted at
the same time as these other paper local charters, on November 8, 1955.
We will develop as the hearings go on the relationship between Gordon,
Holt, and Dio.
The Chairman. I would like to ask this witness one other question.
You said, I believe, that you got 50 cents a week?
Mr. Getlan. No ; a month per each machine.
The Chairman. Per each machine per month.
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. How many machines were involved in this 100
members you had.
Mr. Getlan. Approximately 4,000.
The Chairman. So you got $2,000 a month out of the machines, in
round numbers, and $500 out of the members ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. So that gave you an income of around $30,000 a
year, gross income ?
Mr. Getlan. Well, you got the pencil.
The Chairman. You got $2,000 out of the machines per month, at
$24,000 per year, and $6,000 per year for members, in round numbers;
so it would be $30,000 a year?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
The Chairman. All of that went for the benefit of those of you
who organized it.
Mr. Getlan. That is pickets and so forth that you have to have.
The Chairman. Did you have to have pickets ?
Mr. Getlan. Certainly.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kr.NNEDY. Mr. Getlan, I would like to get your history in the
record. You have been in jukeboxes or interested in jukeboxes?
Mr. Geti^an. In the coin-machine business since 1923.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you have coin machines back in 1923 ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You had them yourself?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3867
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Mr. Kenistedy. Did you distribute them ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Where were you distributing them ?
Mr. Getlan. Sullivan County, N. Y.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you also distributing down in Florida ?
Mr. Geti.an. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you distribute them in Florida in 1930?
Mr. Getlan. 1935 and 1937.
Mr. Kennedy. They were outlawed ; were they ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir ; voted out. It was
Mr. Kennedy. When you were distributing these coin machines,
what would be the weekly income that you would receive, approxi-
mately ?
(At this point. Senator McClellan and Senator Ives withdrew from
the hearing room.)
Mr. Getlan. Well, I haven't got no records.
Mr. Kennedy. I know you haven't got any records, but I am saying
"approximately." Approximately, what would be your weekly income
on the distribution ?
Mr. Getlan. At what time ?
Mr. Kennedy. When you were down in Miami, for instance, in
Florida ?
Mr. Gett.an. It would average about $30 per machine, or $35 per
week.
Mr. Kennedy. Altogether, weekly, how much would you make?
Mr. Getlan, I operated 250 machines.
Mr. Kennedy. How much approximately would you make each
week?
Mr. Getlan. About $7,000 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. About $7,000 a week. Would that be slot machines ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right; slot machines.
Mr. Kennedy. And that was your operation in Miami ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And you would clear about $6,500 or $7,000 a week?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ultimately move up to New York City?
Mr. Getlan. I moved my clothes up to New York City after a run.
Mr. Kennedy. After what ?
Mr. Getlan. After the run was over. We were voted out with the
slot machines.
Mr. Kennedy. And you didn't have anything left by that time?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't save much of the $7,000 a week?
Mr. Getlan. No ; I didn't have no time.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't have any time?
Mr. Getlan. I didn't have time to save any money.
Mr. Kennedy. What were you busy doing ?
Well, I will go on.
You went up to New York City ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you meet some people up there that offered
you a job, to put you to work ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
3868 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you work for in New York City ?
Mr. Getlan. When I came back to New York? I got a proposi-
tion with the union.
Mr. Kennedy. When was this ?
Mr. Getlan. In 1950.
Mr. Kennedy. I am still back in the 1930's.
Mr. Getlan. I didn't come up to New York, then.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you work in New York at all in the 1930's?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you work in the 1940's in New York?
Mr. Getlan. In 19
Mr. Kennedy. In the 1930's. Let us go back. Did you work in
New York at all then ?
Mr. GETLiVN. I worked in New York in 1930, yes, up to 1935.
Mr. Kennedy. That is prior to going to Miami ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio did you work for then ?
Mr. Getlan. I worked as a distributor for Mills Novelty Co.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you work for Frank Costello at that time ?
Mr. Getlan. No ; not at that time.
Prior to that I did. In 1929.
Mr. Kennedy. "Vivien did you work for Frank Costello ? ,
Mr. Getlan. In 1929, or 1928.
Mr. Kennedy. 1928 and 1929?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What kind of a job did you have then ?
Mr. Getlan. As an agent.
Mr. Kennedy. What would an agent do ?
Mr. Getlan. Servicing the slot machines.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat area were you in?
Mr. Getlan. In Harlem.
Mr. Kennedy. And then after doing that, you went back to Miami,,
you went down to Miami, or you stayed in New York ?
Mr. Getlan. That is when I went back to Miami, the first time, in
1935.
(At this point. Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Did you work for Costello in just 1928 and 1929?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And then for the Mills Distributing Co. ?
Mr. Getlan. I worked for them in 1934 and 1935.
Mr. Kennedy. Who ran that company? Who did you work for?
Mr. Getlan. It was a concern by the name of United Automatic
Coin Machine Co. I was a distributor for Mills Novelty Co., and sold
their merchandise.
Mr. Kennedy. These coin machines?
Mr. Getlan. Slot machines.
Mr. Kennedy. So you have been interested in slot machines all your
life?
Mr. Getlan. I have been interested in the coin-machine business
since 1923.
Mr. Kennedy. T^Tien did you become interested in the union busi-
ness ?
Mr. Getlan. 1950.
IMPROPER ACTIVmES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3869
Mr. Kennedy. And you started in Westchester at that time I
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Were any of them organized in Westchester ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there an association ?
Mr. Getlan. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. There wasn't an association. When you got out to
WT'estchester, did you write to the various people that had
Mr. Getlan. I knew who the operators were in Westchester County.
Mr. Kennedy. So you wrote to them ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And suggested they become members of the union ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they gradually all becouie members of the
union ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How many members of tlie union do you have now ?
Mr. Getlan. Around 100 members.
Mr. Kennedy. Of that 100, how many are employers, wlio own their
own machines or distribute their own machines ?
Mr, Getlan. About 30 percent.
Mr. Kennedy. When you talk about the outsiders coming in, or
keeping locations from being jumped, would that mean if an outsider
came in from Chicago, for in.stance, and wanted to estnblish n new
location, you could prevent that ?
Mr. Getlan. Tliat is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So you are soit of working witli the association that
exists out in AVestchester now, to keep new people from coming in ?
Mr. Getlan. Tliat is i-ight.
Mr. Kennedy. You woukl prevent it by placing pickets? That is
how you would use your ])ickets ?
Mr. Getlan. Tliat is right.
Mr. Kennedy. If somebody came in and opened a new bar, and they
didn't Avant to get their slot machines or their coin machines from a
member of the association, they wanted an independent, then you
could place a picket around that bar and prevent beer from being
delivered ; is that right ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that right ?
Mr. Getlan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So it is really a close association that the union has
with the association itself, the coin machine association itself; is that
right?
I menu, it is a close, working relationship.
Mr. (Jktlan. We have members that do not belong to an association,
if]'. Kennedy. But the basic reason for existence is because of this
■close relationship that exists between your union and the association?
Mr. Getlan. That is right. Most of my members belong to an
; association.
Mr. Kennedy. Your brother has some machines out there, Izzy ?
Mr. Getlan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Izzy Getlan. He has a club out there, has he?
Mr. Getlan. In Westchester County.
3870 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, Kennedy, Does he belong to the union ?
Mr. Getlan, No, sir,
Mr. Kennedy, You have never picketed him ?
Mr, Getlan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. I think that is alL
The Chairman. Why don't you? Why don't you make him join?
Mr. Getlan. I don't talk to him.
The Chairman. Is the reason that you are afraid he might con-
vince you instead of you convincing him ?
Mr. Getlan. I am afraid they will come to you people.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
If not, call the next witness.
Thank you very much. You may stand aside for the present.
Remain here. We might have to call you back for something.
Mr. I^nnedy. Mr. Chairman, at this point, we have the situation
as far as 228 is concerned, that the international said it was never in
existence, that the charter was lifted actually in 1955, and we find that
in 1954 they filed financial statements, 228 filed financial statements,
with the Labor Department, and then later on in 1955, under Sam
Getlan, it was active again.
And Mr. Getlan has testified that he received the charter from
Milton Holt of the teamsters. So we had the charter going from
Sidney Hodes, and from there we don't know exactly but it ended up
at least with Milton Holt. Then it bounced over to Sam Getlan, and
Sam Getlan bounced it back to Milton Holt.
We have tried to trace it from there. We have an affidavit that
may be of some assistance.
The Chairman. The Chair reads into the record an affidavit.
United States Court House,
Foley Square, New York, N. Y., June 26, 1957.
State of New York,
County of New York, ss:
Amelia McCarthy, being duly sworn deposes and says :
I, Amelia McCarthy, furnish the following statement to Walter R. May, who
has identified himself to me as a staff member of the United States Senate
Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Field.
I give this statement freely and voluntarily and with the knowledge that the
statement may be used at committee hearings held in public session.
I reside on Main Street, Hurleyville, N. Y., and my husband, William, and I
own and operate the Catskill Amusement Co. in Hurleyville, a company engaged
in operating and servicing coin-operated amusement machines.
Beginning about 1952 and for a number of years thereafter our company as
well as other similar companies in our area had a labor-management agreement
with Sam Getlan, a labor-union oflScial who maintained an office at 10 Park
Avenue, Mount Vernon, N. Y. During this period Getlan operated under various
charters and was aflSliated with different international unions. About July
1955, Mr. Getlan notified me and other company owners that he had obtained
a new charter, Local 228, UAW-AFL and that, henceforth, we would be members
of that union.
In January 1956 we were notified by Sam Getlan that our dues were being
raised which caused me and other owners some concern. At the regular monthly
meeting of the New York State Operators Guild some of the owners indicated
a desire to join some other union if possible. Shortly thereafter Philip Kazan-
sky, who is an official of a teamster union and who maintains an office at 229
Broadway, Monticello, N. Y., was contacted by me and my husl)and and asked
if he would be able to take the owner-employees and other employees into his
union. He said he was not positive ; that he was going to visit New York City
and would let me know. A few days later, Mr. Kazansky told me he had
learned that the local 228 charter had been taken from Sam Getlan.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3871
A regular meeting of the New York State Operators Guild was held a short
time later at the Governor Clinton Hotel, Kingston, N. Y., at which meeting
Mr. Kazansky was present and announced that Getlan had lost the local 228
charter. One of the guild members telephoned Sam Getlan who stated that the
local 228 charter was still in his possession hanging on the wall of his office.
At the meeting Mr. Kazansky was asked to prove that the 228 charter had
been taken from Getlan and Kazansky stated he would produce the charter at
my home the following Saturday.
On that Saturday evening, sometime in February 1956, Mr. Kazansky appeared
at my home and showed the local 228 charter to me and my husband. The
charter was contained in a frame ; was titled "UAW Local 228, A. F. of L." ;
and contained two lists of names.
A week or two later a special meeting was held at the Nelson House, Pough-
keepsie, N. Y., which was attended by owners, owner-employees, and employees.
Mr. Kazansky was also present and it was indicated to him that his story con-
cerning his possession of the local 228 chaiter was doubted. Mr. Kazansky then
said he would produce the charter at his office in Monticello the following Sun-
day. On that Sunday in March 1956 my husband and I invited the owners and
Mr. Kazansky to our home. On that day at our home in Hurleyville, Mr.
Kazansky showed the charter to me and other owners including Jack Wilson, of
Nevvburgh, N. Y. ; Mrs. Ann Koenig, of Kingston ; and Mrs. Gertrude Brown, of
Beacon, N. Y. At that time Mr. Kazansky stated he did not want to sign us up
with either Teamster Local 269 or with local 228 because he did not want to
become involved with our group. Kazansky also said he was not sure how
Getlan might have abused the local 228 charter and therefore he did not want
to use it.
Later at a regular meeting of the New York State Operators Guild it was
decided by most of the owner-employees and employees to continue as members
of Sam Getlan's union, local 26, IJWU. To my knowledge Mr. Kazansky did
not use the local 228 charter since Mr. Kazansky's visit to my home in
March 1956.
I have read this 2-page statement. It is true and correct.
Amelia McCakthy
Walter R. May.
Witness :
Sworn to before me this 26th day of June 1957.
[seal] Raymond A. Murphy,
Notary Pullic, State of New York, No. 03-8075000. Qualified in Bronx
Count!/. Certificates filed in Neiv York and Kings County.
Commission expires March 30, 1958.
(At this point, Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room.)
The Chairman. Are there any further questions of Mr. Getlan?
Mr. Kennedy. Not for the moment.
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Philip Kazansky.
(Members of the select committee present at this point in the pro-
cedings: Senators McClellan, Mundt, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. You may be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that
the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Kazansky. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PHILIP KAZANSKY
The Chairman. Mr. Kazansky, will you state your name, your place
of residence, and your business or occupation ?
Mr, Kazansky. Philip Kazansky. I reside at 36 Liberty Street,
Monticello, N. Y.
The Chairman. What is your business or occupation, please?
3872 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer on the grounds
it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Is it that bad ?
Mr. Kazansky. It may be, sir.
The Chairman. You do not intend, then, to answer questions? Is
that correct ?
Mr. Kazansky. I believe that is correct, sir.
The Chairman. I can proceed a little further. I want to give you
an opportunity to testify because your name has been presented here
tinder oath with respect to some of your activities in connection with
the charter of local 228.
Mr. Counsel, you may proceed to interrogate the witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, according to the testimony so far,
the charter came from Milton Holt to Sam Getlan, and then Sam
Getlan returned it to Milton Holt, and Mr. Philip Kazansky, accord-
ing to the affidavit of Amelia McCarthy, appeared with the charter,
and attempted to organize these individuals.
I would like to ask you if you ever had in your possession the charter
of local 228, Mr. Kazansky.
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you receive the charter from Mr. Milton Holt ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I repeat again, I respectfully decline to answer
the question on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you have counsel to represent you ?
Mr. Kazansky. No, sir.
The Chairman. You knew you had a right to have counsel; did
you?
Mr. Kazansky. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have waived counsel?
Mr. Kazansky. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. We understand, as I pointed out before, that there
is a close relationship between Mr. John Dioguardi and Mr. Milton
Holt.
I would like to ask you whether Mr. Johnny Dio had anything to
do with your getting the charter from Milton Holt ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. John Dioguardi ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question
on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Milton Holt?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. A. Gordon ?
Mr. Kazansky, Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. A. Gordon, Mr. Chairman, is president of 805.
Do you know Nat Gordon, A. Gordon's brother ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennei^y. Were you present when these charters were given
out for the so-called paper locals of the Teamsters?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3873
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you still have the charter for local 228 in your
possession ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question
ou the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell the committee what you did with the
cliartei- ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Are you now a member of a labor union?
Mr. Kazansy. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you think it might tend to incriminate you if
you were a membei- of a labor union ?
Mr. Kazansky. It might.
The Chaik3ian. Do you state under your oath that you honestly
believe that if you answered tliat (luestion truthfully, that a truthful
answer miglit tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Kazansky. It may.
The Chairman. You are stating that under oath?
Mr. Kazansky. Yes, sir.
The Chlmrman. I wonder what kind of a labor union it is.
You see, you cast aspersions upon that union if you are a member
of it by taking that position.
Mr. Kazansky. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You realize that, do you?
Mr. Kazansky. It may, sir.
The Chairman. Then are we to assuu)e that that is a union that a
decent citizen would not be proud to belong to?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The CiiAiRiNiAN. Is that one too close to the truth?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, again I respectfully refuse to answer the ques-
tion on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Yes, sir, I realize that.
Senator Mundt. Do you know Mr. Sam Getlan, who testified just
ahead of you on the stand?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I refuse to answer the question on the grounds
it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair presents to you a photostatic copy of a
letter dated February 2, 1956, signed by Joseph Curcio, secretary-
treasurer of local 269, Warehouse and Processing Employees Union.
Will you please examine this document and state if you identify it?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Let this document be made exhibit No. 20, the one
that was presented to the witness.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 20,*" and is as
follows.)
The Chairman. I shall read this document. As I pointed out, it
is on Warehouse and Processing Employees Union Local 269 sta-
80330 — 57— pt. 10 19
3874 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
tionery, dated February 2, 1956, addressed to Joint Council No. 16,
International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen,
and Helpers of America, 265 West 14:th Street, Room 709, New York
11, N. Y.
Dear Sib and Bbother : This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of Jan-
uary 19, 1956. We give you below a list of officers of our local union who are
eligible to vote in the joint council election. They are :
Armando Simontacci, president; Basil Koschel, vice president; Joseph Cur-
cios, secretary-treasurer ; Philip Kazansky, recording secretary ; Frank Easton,
trustee ; John Korsizor, trustee ; Rozario Catalano, trustee.
Fraternally yours,
Joseph Curcio,
Secretary-Treasurer.
Do you know anything about that letter ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer that question
on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Did you attend the joint council meeting at which
the election was held?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the ground it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Did you know local 269 was one of these paper
locals that was phony and that the whole purpose of this arrange-
ment, this scheme, was to vote illegal votes in that election for the
purpose of electing John O'Rourke ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir ; I respectfully refuse to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you not think if you have been perpetrating a
fraud on honest working people you ought to have the decency to
answer such questions?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir; I refuse to answer such questions on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I will hand you another one.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 21" and fol-
lows : )
The Chairman. On the same stationery, of local 269, dated Febru-
ary 2, 1956, addressed to the same joint council, and it reads as follows :
Dear Sir and Brother: This will certify that the bearer, Philip Kazansky,
is an executive board member of our local union, 269, and is eligible to vote in
the joint council election.
Fraternally yours,
Joseph Cuecio,
Secretary-Treasurer.
I present this ]:)hotostatic copy of the letter to you, and ask you to
examine it and state if you identify it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question
on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I will ask you if you attended that election.
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question
on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The CiiAiRisrAN. Do you think it would tend to incriminate you if
you attended the election under that certificate and voted for Mr.
O'Rourke?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I refuse to answer the question on the ground it
may tend to incriminate me.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIE'S IN THE LABOR MELD 3875
The Chairman. Was there anything about that election, about
this transaction, that you feel is improper, and, therefore, might re-
flect upon your character and integrity ?
Mr. IvAZANSKY. Sir, I refuse to answer the question on the grounds
it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You would be the best judge of it. I am about to
accept your statement as a fact.
Are tliere any questions ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, our information now is that Mr.
Kazansky works for local 269 and received $35 in expenses every week
from local 269 of the teamstei*s.
The Chairman. Is that true?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question
the question on the ground that it may tend to incriminate me.
The CiiAiRinAN. Well, let us see. What is that union affiliated with ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. 269 is one of the paper locals, Mr. Chairman, local
269 of the teamsters, where they voted in this election we discussed.
The votes were impounded. Forty-two votes were cast. Philip Kaz-
ansky was one of them, and that vote was cast for Mr. John O'Rourke.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions?
Senator Curtis. How many members are there in local 269 ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I res]Dectfully refuse to answer the question
on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Curtis. Do you know any of the members ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question
on the gromids it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Kazansky was called for two
reasons: Because of his knowledge of the bouncing charter 228,
and because of tliis information that he should have regarding the
elections for the joint council 16 of New York City. Those are all
the questions I have.
The Chairman. You are not willing to testify before this com-
mittee ?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question
on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I think that is one you can answer, if you are un-
willing to testify. You are apparently demonstrating that. I won-
dered if there was anything that you would testify to if we asked
you about it.
Can you think of any question we could ask you that you would
give a truthful answer to?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer the question on
the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You feel like you are in pretty bad shape, do you
not?
Mr. Kazansky. Sir, I respectfully refuse to answer the question
on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I sympathize with you. You are excused.
Mr. Kazansky. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we had the information from the
first witness that the international said that this charter was never
active. It nevertheless ended up in the hands of Mr. Holt, from Mr.
Hodes to Mr. Holt of the teamsters union, and then bounced to Mr.
Getlan, came back to Mr. Milton Holt, came back to Mr. Kazansky.
3876 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
We feel that the testimony of Mr. Milton Holt could t]u'o^y a lot
of light on this situation. He is the next witness.
The Chairman. Mr. Holt, come forward, please.
(Present at this point were Senators McClellan, Mundt, and
Curtis. )
The CiiAiKMAN. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Holt. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MILTON HOLT, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JOSEPH E. BEILL, ESQ.
The Chairman. State your name, please, your place of residence
and your business or occupation.
Mr. Holt. Milton Holt, 7219 136th Street, Flushing, N. Y.
The Chairman. State your business or occupation, please, Mr. Holt.
Mr. Holt. I must respectfully decline to answer under the fifth
amendment, which guarantees me due process of law, and the privi-
lege aeainst self-incrimination, because to answer mav incriminate me
and would deny me due process of law.
Furthermore, my answer would not serve the legislative purposes
of this committee and, in addition, the question is not pertinent.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Holt, would you explain to me what the legis-
lative pur])(>ses are?
The Chairman. Just a moment.
The Chair overrules the witness' objection on the grounds that his
testimony would serve no legislative purpose. We cannot determine
about that until he answers his questions. He is overruled on the
second ground that the testimony he would give is not pertinent.
Therefore, on those bases, you are ordered and directed to answer the
question.
Mr. Holt. Senator, to answer would incriminate me, and would
deny the due process of law.
The Chairman. We will ask you another, and see if this will
incriminate you.
Have you hired a law3"er to represent you today ?
Mr. Holt. Yes, sir.
The Chairiman. That does not incriminate you.
Mr. Counsel, will you state your name, please, for the record?
Mr. Brill. I will, Senator. It is Jose])h E. Brill.
The Chairman. Your address, please ?
Mr. Brill. I have it already written for the record. It is 165
"Broadway, New York City.
The Chairman. Senator Mundt, did you wish to ask the witness a
question?
Senator Mttndt. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
I was intrigued by one part of the witness' reply. He said, in his
■opinion, it would not serve the legislative purposes for which this
connuittee was created. I would like to have the witness tell us what,
in his mind, are the legislative purposes for wliich this committee is
created.
Mr. Holt. T did not get the question. Senator.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIE1.D 3877
Senator Mundt. I want to know what, in your mind, are the legisla-
tive purposes for which this committee is created.
You told us that you did not think that particular question would
serve them. So I can test the validity of your reply, I want to know
what you feel are our legislative purposes.
Mr. Holt. Senator, if I was to go beyond what I have already said,
it might result in a waiver of my rights, upon which I desire to stand.
Senator Mundt. This would support your rights, if you have a
position which is defensible.
If you feel that we are going beyond the legislative purview which
has been given us by the Senate, you should make it a point to sub-
stantiate it.
You said that you did not think the questions that the chairman
asked you were pertinent to our legislative purpose. I ask you what
do you think is the legislative purpose of the committee ?
JNIr. Holt. Again, I state the previous grounds which I have already
stated.
Senator Mundt. Which grounds are those ?
Mr. Holt. That it might result in a waiver of my rights.
Senator Mundt. You have not established any rights until you have
set out for us what you think are the legislative purposes so that we
can measure them against the pertinency of the question.
Mr. Holt. What is the question ?
Senator Mundt. The question is, What do you think is the legisla-
tive purpose of this committee ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Holt. Senator, I am sorry, but if I were to answer or discuss
any more pertaining to that question, it could result in a waiver of my
rights upon which I desire to stand.
Senator Mundt. On the contrary, I think when the witness elects
to take unto liimself the function of giving us gratuitous advice, what
questions are pertinent and what questions are not pertinent, I think
he has the responsibility of following through to tell us what he thinks
are the purposes of the committee.
Mr. Holt. I wouldn't know that.
Senator Mundt. Then how would you Imow the question was not
pertinent '?
JNIr. Holt. I wouldn't know that either.
Senator Mundt. I thought you must be well versed in all this, be-
cause you were giving us a lecture on pertinency.
Mr. Holt. I have already stated my position. Senator, that I can-
not answer anything beyond what I have already answered.
Senator Mundt. I am not asking you to go beyond what you have
already said. You have already said too much, I think, because you
liave tried to tell us what tlie functions of the committee are not, and
if you know what we should not ask, you certainly must know what
you think are the guidelines which should govern the questioning of
the committee.
Mr. Holt. I cannot answer anything further pertaining to the
question. It could result in a waiver of my constitutional rights.
Senator Mundt. You have no constitutional right insofar as the
part of the question I am talking about is concerned. You have some
under the fifth amendment, but you have none from the standpoint
of a counselor tellino; this committee what its functions are.
3878 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
If you appear in that unique capacity and you say that you thought
the question was not pertinent, I want to know why.
Mr. Holt. I stand on the previous answer I gave.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. How old are you, Mr. Holt ?
Mr. Holt. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds that I
have stated before.
Senator Curtis. Where were you born ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Curtis. Do you wish to reconsider your answer as to how
old you are ?
Mr. Holt. I cannot discuss anything further than what I have al-
ready said for fear it might result in a waiver of my rights upon
which I desire to stand.
Senator Curtis. Where were you born ?
Mr. Holt. I stand upon the answer I just gave.
Senator Curtis. IVhere did you go to school ?
Mr. Holt. I respectfully stand on the previous answer, Senator.
Senator Curtis. At what age did you begin to work ?
Mr. Holt. I respectfully stand on the same answer I gave pre-
viously.
Senator Curtis. When did you first have any connection with any
labor organization?
Mr. Holt. Senator, I respectfully submit that any discussion any
further might result in a waiver of my rights which I desire to stand
upon.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I would like to ask 1 or 2 questions.
Are you presently a member of a labor union ?
Mr. Holt. I didn't get that, sir.
The Chairman. Are you presently a member of a labor union ?
Mr. Holt. I must respectfully decline to answer on the grounds
I have previously stated.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that you are secretary-treasurer
now of local 805 of the teamsters union ?
Mr. Holt. I respectfully submit that I cannot go into any further
discussions than what I have previously stated.
The Chairman. Do you think the members of the teamsters union
who work and pay dues appreciate the attitude of denying or refusing
to state whether you are representing them in an official capacity or
whether you are associated with them as a member ?
Mr. Holt. Senator, I cannot answer the question because it might
result in a waiver of my constitutional rights on which I desire to
stand.
The Chairman. You keep emphasizing your constitutional rights.
Do you think the membership of your union and the American people,
and this Government have any rights at all as to the conduct of unions
and to inquire about their conduct ?
Mr. Holt. I stand on the same answer I previously stated.
The Chair^nian. Are you under indictment now for perjury ?
Mr. Holt. I respectfully decline to answer.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3879
The Chairman. The court record will show that. It may reflect
on you, I do not know. But you know we can always find that out.
Do you not know that is a fact ?
Mr. Holt. To answer may incriminate me and deny me due process
of law.
The Chairman. Do you not know that is a fact and that you are
still an officer in the union, secretary-treasurer of local 805 of the
teamsters union?
Mr. Holt. Senator, I respectfully submit again that to go beyond
what I have already stated might result in a waiver of my rights upon
which I desire to stand.
The Chairman. Senator Mundt?
Senator Mundt. Has your case been brought to the attention of
Walter Eeuther and Mr. Meany and the members of the ethical prac-
tices board of the CIO-AFL?
Mr. Holt. I reiterate the statement I just made previously.
Senator Mundt. It seems to me that it is such a startling case of a
flagrant violation of the published provisions of the ethical practices
code that inasmuch as it has definitely been established that you are
a secretary-treasurer of a branch of organized labor, that quite ob-
viously your case must be before them for disposition.
I was wondering whether or not you knew whether it was pending
and whether a decision would be handed down by that high governing
board.
Mr. Holt. Senator, I respectfully stand on the statements I made
previously.
The Chairman. I may say, Senator Mundt, if it was not before them
today, I think this is headed for them.
Senator Mundt. I think the American people are getting a little
bit impatient, Mr. Chairman, about the fact that these cases are being
brought before the ethical practices board without any expeditious
disposition. A case as flagrant as this does not require a long period
of deliberation on the part of that board, and I think the public
would appreciate having a verdict, that either they approve this kind
of practice or they do not.
If they do not, we ought to have some decisions coming down
pretty rapidly.
The Chairman. We may have one situation where they would
have to request the international teamsters to act since he is in the
teamsters union. I think they could act as international officers.
Senator Mundt. As I recall the testimony of Mr. Meany, that was
the way in which they functioned. But the triggering off of this
process has to be by the ethical practices board. They can then
act — Mr. Jimmy Hoffa and the teamsters group, can take action —
and if they do not taken action, Mr. Meany outlined the procedure
which would be followed.
The Chairman. That is right.
Senator Mundt. I get a lot of letters from people around the
country who are following these hearings on television and through
the press, criticizing the fact that nothing is happening on this ethical
practices board on fifth amendment witnesses who take the amend-
ment allegedly to protect some corrupt practice in a part of the union.
I think we should start getting some action on cases as flagrant as
this one.
3880 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Could I say there, Senator, because I have been
in touch with them to some extent, that they have already made cer-
tain representations, the AFL-CIO ethical practices committee, and
the AFL-CIO officials themselves have already made representa-
tions to the teamsters union in certain areas. When these things
are brought to their attention, then they make representations to the
international union and request that certain action be taken. They
have given them certain dates and are trying to get together now for
a meeting. I thought that those facts should be brought to your
attention so you would undersand the complete picture.
It is now in the hands of the teamsters rather than in the hands of
the ethical practices committee or the AFL-CIO.
Senator Mundt. All the public wants is to translate these repre-
sentations into results. There is failure to produce a result, because
of the failure on the part of the teamster leadership, if that is the
point — let the chips fall where they will — but let us get those results
publicized, because this type of procedure is working a great injustice,
in my opinion, and a great injury, on honest trade unionism in Amer-
ica. It is certainly most exasperating to the tens of thousands of
teamsters and other union members who are paying dues. They are
about ready to find out whether or not their money is being used to
advance working conditions and improve them, or whether this is a
whole pattern of corruption on tlie part of labor officials in minor posi-
tions or in high ones, using these dues from the workingman's family
to further their own efforts.
Mr. Holt, you could be very helpful if you wanted to, in trying to
disabuse the public consciousness of this conclusion. By taking the
fifth amendment, you simply throw oil on the fire.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, our primary interest in Mr. Holt was
the fact that he, according to the sworn testimony of Mr. Getlan, he,
as a teamster official had a charter of the UAW.
I am wondering if you would tell us how you got that charter, where
you got it from, and how it happened to come into your possession?
Mr. Holt. Counsel, I cannot answer the question. It might result
in a waiver of my rights, and I do not want to be deprived of my
rights.
Mr. Kennedy. You say that you refuse to answer on the grounds
that the truthful answer might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Holt. My answer is the same as I have previously stated.
Mr. Kennedy. What is that?
Mr. Holt. I cannot answer the question because it might result in
a waiver of my riglits, upon which I desire to stand.
Mr. Kennedy. What are your rights that you understand?
Mr. Holt. I must respectfully decline to answer
(The wdtness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Holt. Because to answer may incriminate me and would deny
me due process of law.
Mr. Kennedy. So you do not want to answer the question as to how
this UAW charter came into your possession, on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate you ; is that right?
Mr. Holt. I cannot answer any question that might result in a
waiver of my rights.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 3881
Mr. Kennedy. It lias to be something more than that. It has to be
that yon feel that an answer might tend to incriminate you, not just
that yon were going to waive yonr rights. Do you feel that a truthful
ansAver might tend to incriminate 3"ou ?
Mr. Holt. To answer may incriminate me, sir, and may denj'^ me due
process of law.
Mr. Kennedy. That answer, I think will stand.
Did you buy this charter from anybody in the UAW, Mr. Holt ?
Mr. Holt. I cannot answer beyond what I have already stated,
because it might result in a waiver of my rights, upon which I desire
to stand.
Mr. Kennedy. Which includes that it might tend to incriminate
you; is that right? '
Mr. Holt. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make any arrangements to sell this charter
at any time?
Mr. Holt. I decline to answer respectfully, on the grounds that it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Kj:nnedy. Mr. Chairman, on the question of Mr. Holt and
his present indictment, he is under indictment for perjury in connec-
tion with the indictment of Mr. Johnny Dioguardi and John Mc-
Namara in New York on the grounds of extortion. Mr. Holt appeared
before the grand jury and, based on his testimony before the grand
jury, he was indicted for perjury.
The Chairman. Mr. Holt, I sup]:)Ose we could ask many questions
and you would give the same answers, that you would decline to
answer on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate you. The
only observation
Mr. Holt. I couldn't hear that, sir. Would you please repeat it?
The Chairman. I will say it again.
I say I assume that we could ask you many questions pertinent
to this inquiry, and you would continue to decline to answer on the
same grounds. You stated that joii feel that a truthful answer might
tend to incriminate you. I do not challenge that statement as to
some of the questions, at least, that it might tend to incriminate you.
But I just wonder if you and the others like you have any conception
or care of the great damage you are doing to honest unionism in
this country and to the honest laboring men and women who work
and pay dues in good faith to a labor organization in the hope and
in the expectation that they will receive benefits therefrom.
Do you have any conception or do you care what you are doing, you
and those like you taking this position of not cooperating, and trying
to obstruct the work of your Government to provide better unionism
for the working people of this country ?
Mr. Holt, I didn't get that. Did you ask a question?
The Chairman. I asked it twice. I will ask this part of it again.
Mr. Holt. I thought you made a statement.
The Chairman. Do you have any conception or do you care about
what you are doing and what others like you are doing to hurt union-
ism in this country and the honest working people who pay their
dues in good faith to unions with the expectation and hope of getting
some benefit from it?
3882 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Holt, Eespectfully, sir, I may be deprived of my rights if
I should answer your question or statement, and I desire to stand
upon my previous statement.
The Chairman. You take the fifth amendment to that, also?
Mr. Holt. Yes.
The Chairman. All right. You may stand aside.
Is there anything further this afternoon ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock
tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 22 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at
10 a. m., Tuesday, August 6, 1957.)
(Memb-ers present at the taking of the recess: Senators McClellan,
Mundt, and Curtis.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR 3IANAGEMENT FIELD
TUESDAY, AUGUST 6, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper
Activities in the Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D. C.
The select committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room. Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senators John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Irving
M. Ives, Republican, New York; Barry Goldwater, Republican, Ari-
zona; Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Carl T. Curtis,
Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Paul J. Tierney,
assistant counsel; Walter R. May, assistant counsel; Ruth Young
Watt, chief clerk.
(Members present at the convening of the session: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Ives, Goldwater, and Curtis. )
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
All right, Mr. Counsel, call your first witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, the first witness will be Mr. Stanley
Lehrer, who is counsel for the Auto Glass Dealers, Inc., of Greater
New York, and it will be in connection with the auto-dealers contract
with one of the unions of Johnny Dio, and an arrangement made with
Equitable Research, which was Johnny Dio's management consultant
research firm.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Lehrer. I do.
TESTIMONY OF STANLEY LEHRER
The Chairman. Will you state your name, your place of residence,
and your business or occupation ?
Mr. Lehrer. My name is Stanley Lehrer, I reside at 1321 East
101st Street, Brooklyn, and I am an attorney at law.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Being an attorney at law, I assume that you waive the right of
additional counsel ?
Mr. Lehrer. I do, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you.
3883
3884 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr, Kenxedy. Mr. Lelirer, you are retained by the Auto Glass
Dealers Association?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kexxedy. And you have been with them for how long?
Mr. Lehrer. Since approximately April or May of 1954.
Mr. Kexxedy. Where did they operate, or where are their head-
quarters^
?%Ir. Lehrer. Their headquarters are in New York City, an associa-
tion comprising mem}>ers of that industry, located in the New York
Cit}' meti'opolitan area.
Mr. Kexxedy. How man}" members are there of the association?
]\Ir. Lehrer. Approximately 140 or 150.
Mr. Kexxedy. Could you tell us what the industry, the auto-glass
industry is, and what you do, what these people do ?
Mr. Lehrer. These people are the auto re]iairmen that replace auto-
mobile glass, in automobiles, of course.
Senator Curtis. Is it an association of management ?
Mr. Lehrer. An association of management; that is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Have there been attempts to organize or unionize
these members of this association ?
jMr. Lehrer. Prior to 1955, there had been very few attempts, going
back over many years, of which I have very little personal knowledge.
Ml'. Ki:xNEDY. For what reason hadn't there been attempts to or-
ganize them?
Mr, Lehrer. The auto-glass industry in Xew York City is com-
])rised of approximately 200 shops. I guess at least 60 percent or
mo]'e are 1-mon owner-operated shops. By 1-man owner-operated
shops I also include the partnership where there are 2 owners that
have no employees.
Mr. Kexnedy. So there wouldn't be any reason, particularly, to
organize them or unionize them ?
Mr. T/EHRer. That is my feeling, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. For the most part, the people woi'k for themselves?
IMr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. There wouldn't be any improvement in wages, ho\u"s,
or conditions for these people ; is that right ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, in June or July of 1955, were you approached
by several unions in an attempt to organize the shops ?
Mr. Lehrer. Several of the employer shops of my client were ap-
proached by local 227. I believe at that time it was UAW-AFL.
Mr, Kennedy. Who were the officials of that?
Mr. Lehrer. Harry Eeiss was president, and Arthur Santa Maria
held an office.
Mr, Kennedy, And David Consentino?
Mr. Lehrer. Another office; yes, sir,
Mr, Kex^nedy, At that same time, were you in June or July of 1955
approached by other unions in an attempt to organize i
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Were you approached by local 5, by "Benny the
Bug"?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy, He came in to try to organize ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3885
Mr. Lehker. Correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you approached by 259 of the UAW-CIO '?
Mr. Leiirer. Several of the shops of my client were so approached.
Mr. Kennedy. The head of that local was Mickey Finn ?
Mr. Lehrer. So I have lieard.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the effect of the attempted organization
of these shops on the owners, on the shops themselves t
Mr. Lehrer. Organizing- a one-man shop in that industr}" is no prob-
lem to the union. The biggest weapon he has is the picket. In the
auto-glass industry throughout the country in the past few years, since
the advent of the curved windshield, the glass parts in the automobiles
have meant that the auto-glass dealer, as such, must stock more and
more glass. He cannot cut the glass, and he must order it. ^ly cl ients*
shops in NeAv York City vrere not that financially able that they could
stock glass to any large extent so that when an automobile came in for-
repair he relies on the distributor and the warehouse to ship him that
piece of glass the very same day within a few hours after he orders it.
With the threat of })icketing, forgetting for the moment the retail
trade tliat woukl not cross the picket line, there was the pi-oblem that
he could not ^^\. deliveries by truckdrivers who would refuse to cross
tlie picket line. This was the problem that presented itself to him
in the summer of 1955.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there actually pickets on shops that were self-
owned '.
Mr. Lehrer. Yes; to \\\\ knowledge there was.
Mr. Kennedy. The i)ickets would be placed outside tlie slioj) where
tlie mau was working by himself, and for himself?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And the pickets Avould stop deliveries and pickui)s?
Mr. Lehrer. I wouldn't know whether the pickets would stop the
delivery. T do know it has been reported, or it had been reported to
uie by the client that he couldn't get deliveries where truckmen re-
fused to cross the picket line.
Mr. Kennedy. Xow, did you have any conversations witli the offi-
cials of any of these unions during this period ?
]Mr. Leth?er. Yes: I did.
Mr. Kennedy. With whom ?
]Mr. Lehrer. Local 227.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be Harry Reiss?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you finally decide as far as Harry Reiss,
as far as 227 was concerned ?
]Mr. Lehrer. Initially when there was picketing of some of the
various shops, a general organization meeting of our employer organi-
zation was called. This was during the time the picketing was going;
on. ]Mr. Reiss had told several of the officers of the association that if
tlie association would sign a recognition stipulation agreeing to recog-
nize local 227 as the collective-bargaining agent he would call the
pickets oft' during tlie time that the negotiations were in progress for
a contract.
A meeting was then called by the officers of the client, at which
meeting the general body voted not to sign any stipulation of recogni-
tion but instead to do all in their power to stave off any unionization
dri^•e.
3886 IMPROPER AcrrvmEis in the labor field
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ultimately change your minds about that ?
Mr. Lehrer. We had to.
Mr. Kennedy. Why ? Wli at occurred ?
Mr. Lehrer. One of our shops, located in Brooklyn, was being
picketed and being picketed quite heavily. This shop was more or
less of a focal point in what we would term as automobile row. The
auto glass dealer depends to a large extent on what we term a whole-
sale trade. That is, jobs come in to him from the new-car dealer and
the used-car dealer and the service station and the like. This particu-
lar shop located in automobile row threatened, because he had no
choice in the matter, unless the pickets were withdrawn he would have
to capitulate and sign up with the union. In tliat event, the local 227
would have a weapon that they didn't have before and they then could,
by means of secondary boycott, if you will, of all of these new-car
agencies, used-car agencies and the wholesale accounts, direct their
work to a union shop. There was no union shop in the area at the
time.
With this particular shop threatening to capitulate — ^he had no
choice in the matter — another meeting was called the very following
week, 7 days later, at which time tlie general body of the association
directed the executive board to enter into negotiations with local 227.
Mr. Ivennedy. Now, prior to this time had you had a conversation
with one of your members by the name of Louie Boyar ?
Mr. Lehrer. I did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And had he telephoned you at one time when his
shop was being picketed ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he tell you at that time? That is Mr.
B-o-y-a-r, Louis Boyar.
Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Boyar had been particularly heavy hit. Mr.
Boyar owns a small shop in the East New York section of Brooklyn,
a heavily populated area. Besides himself in the shop, he had two
employees, and I might point out that that in New York City is con-
sidered a big shop.
He had been picketed for about 8 or 4 days. He was taking quite
a bad beating from the picketing ; businesswise, that is.
He called me up on Friday afternoon and asked me if I would meet
him, to meet somebody that he tliought could possibly help him get
the pickets off. He wouldn't tell me who the person was, or liow he
got to him.
, My initial reaction Avas I did not want to go at all. However, he
pleaded with me and finally I went down at a prearranged appoint-
ment that Boyar had made with this individual and we met this
individual.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you meet the individual ?
Mr. Lehrer. On the lower east side of Manliattan, in some candy
store.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wliat conversation took place ?
Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Boyar did most of the talking, and Mr. Boyar
outlined his problem to him, and the fact his business was taking a
terrific beating, especially in July, which is a particularly busy sea-
son for auto Qflass, and that he had been picketed for 3 or 4 or 5 days,
or whatever the facts were.
IMPROPElR ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3887
Over my objection he proposed to this person that if he could,
Boyar could possibly get together a number of the shops and per-
haps make a payment of some sort to get the pickets off, and this
person said he would see what he could do.
Mr. Kennedy. Did this person say whom he would have to talk
to to find out ?
Mr. Lehrer. He mentioned the initials "J. D." and he said, "I will
try and call J. D. and see what I can do."
'Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand later on that he called "J. D."
or did you hear from Mr. Boyar ?
Mr. Lehrer. On Monday of the following week, and this had been
a Friday, Mr, Boyar called me and told me that he had received a
call, that nothing could be done.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you learn who you spoke with down at the
restaurant on the east side of New York ?
Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Boyar mentioned his name to me this morning
as Mr. Stark.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know who Mr. Stark is ?
Mr. Lehrer. I do not, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never heard about that beyond that?
Mr. Lehrer. That was the last I ever heard of that.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you describe Mr. Stark to the committee?
Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Stark was approximately 40 to 45 years old, short
build, ruddy complexion. The most distinguishing feature about him
was he looked like a prize fighter, pugnosed and cauliflower ears.
Mr. Kennedy. Nothing ever occurred from that conversation?
Mr. Lehrer. Nothing ever occurred to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. So you went back and decided or your association
met again, and you decided to sign up with local 227; is that right?
Mr. Lehrer. We decided to enter into negotiations with local 227.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you enter into those negotiations?
Mr. Lehrer. We did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And had you fairly well agreed on the terms of the
contract ?
Mr. Lehrer. I would say we had completed 80 or 90 percent of our
negotiations.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, was there a question raised as to the
question of jurisdictional picketing of your various shops, of another
union coming in other than 227 and attempted to organize the shops?
Mr, Lehrer. Yes; there was.
:Mr. Kennedy. And was that raised with Mr. Harry Reiss?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Harry Reiss then indicate to you or did he
say that it was impossible for him to do anything to prevent that kind
of organizational picketing?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct. He said he was the president of his
own local, and he could only control his own local, and he could not
exercise any control over any other locals.
Mr. Kennedy. Rather than organizational picketing, it would be
jurisdictional picketing?
Mr. Lehrer. I would call it so.
Mr. Kennedy. Other unions coming and trying to take the shop
awav from 227; is that right?
Mr. Lehrer. That is my belief.
3888 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did lie say that he would not be able to prevent that ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he at that time, Mr. Harry Reiss, suggest to you
anybody that might be able to prevent that?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes. We were negotiating for this contract. Present
at the negotiations at this time — these negotiation meetings were held
in a shop, one of the members' shops that had been picketed — was the
entire executive board, about 3 or 4 of the other shops that were not
members of the executive board but members of the association, and
perhaps 3 or 4 attorneys who represented various individual clients
within the association. We had progressed for about an hour and
a half to 2 hours on negotiations on the contract when one member of
the executive board raised the question to Mr. Eeiss, "Well, what
happens if we sign with you and some other locals along, as they have
been coming along for the past 2 or 3 weeks, and starts to picket us?"
That is when we got the response that I described before.
Negotiations broke down at that point, and a period of about a half
liour must have elapsed, and finally Mr. Reiss said, "Well, only one
man can possibly help you in the city of New York in a problem of
that type." He either mentioned the name "Equitable Research Asso-
ciates Corp.," or "John Dioguardi," and I don't know which of the
two names was mentioned first, and ultimately both were mentioned.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it decided you would go and see Johnny Dio-
guardi ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go and meet with him ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes ; we did.
Mr. Kennedy. Representatives of the association and yourself ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have discussions with Johnny Dio as to
whether he could prevent any jurisdictional picketing of the shops?
Mr. Lehrer. We did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And did Mr. Dio tell you at that time that he could
prevent that jurisdictional picketing?
Mr. Lehrer. He did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And did he make a request, for those services, for a
payment of some $2,500 ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a question raised by you and your clients
as to that amount, paying that amount ?
Mr. Lehrer. There was, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, at this time, about 80 percent of the terms of
the contract had been agreed to ; is that not right ?
iVIr. Lehrer. I would say so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So it wasn't really necessary to have Mr. Dio's as-
sistance for the contract, but the assistance that was needed was to
l)revent this jurisdictional picketing.
Mr. Lehrer. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. That might follow?
Ml'. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy'. So you went to see Mr. Dio, and you had a discussion
abf)ut tliat. Who made the appointment for you to see Dio?
Mr. Lehrkr. Initially, I believe Mr. Reiss had made the appoint-
luent for us. 1 do not know whether we kept the first appointment
IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3889
or whether it was a subsequent appointment that had been made.
But if I recall, it was Mr. Reiss who had made the appointment.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you understood at that time that the charter
for local 227 had been given to Mr. Reiss by Mr. Diogiiardi when he
was in charge of operations in Xew York City?
Mr. Leiirer. I did not know that, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not know that ?
Mr. Lehrer. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Dio did not indicate that to you in his
conversation ?
Mr. Lehrer. Xo. He did tell me during- the course of the conver-
sation that at one time he had been the regional director of the UAW.
Mr. Kennp:dy. Now, when he raised the question of the $2,500, and
3'ou people felt that was high, were there negotiations back and forth
as to how much you would pay ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell that to the committee (
Mr. Lehrer. Our association had and still has no treasury of any
kind. The dues by the employers to this association were the startling
figure of $3 per month per shop. I'Nlien he made the request of $2,500.
of course, it was quite evident to the client that they could not pos-
sibly get that kind of money. The executive board then met again
and decided that it may come to pass that not everyone of the associa-
tions would fall into the union, and some might escape, and some might
joi]T other unions, and therefore, they should not be penalized. They
felt that if that were the case some formula should be arrived at where
only those who joined the union and had to engage Mr. Dioguardi's
services would pay for the services proportionately.
So a fornnila was reached that we woidd enter into a 8-year contract
Avith Equitable Research Associates Corp.; that is, Mr. Dioguardi's
outfit, and each member of our association who signed a union contract
would pay to Equitable Research or actually he would pay it to the
association who, in tui-n, would paj^ it to Equitable, the sum of $8.33
per year for each employee in the union. That came to $25 for an
employee over a o-j-ear period which was to be payable yearly.
Mr. Kennedy. And you signed a contract with Equitable Research
on that l)asis ^
Mr. Lehrer. We entered into a written contract to that effect.
]Mr. Kennedy. Now, at the time that the written contract was
entered into, was there further discussioji about him preventing any
jurisdictional picketing of your vSho])S, and whether that should be
written in?
Mr. Lehrer. That conversation that 1 believe you are referring
to occurred duriug the negotiations for that written contract.
Mr. Kenxedv. Did Johnny Dio or his rei>resentatives, Noah
Hi-aunstein
M]-. Lehrer. Are you refeiring to his attorney, l*raunstein (
Mr. Kenxedv. Yes, the negotiations were carried out with the
attorney, Noah Brannstein.
Mr. Lehrer. The negotiations for the actual written contract weie
made with Noah Brannstein.
Mr. Kexnedy. This is the contract between the jissociation and
E( n i. i t abl e Research ?
SO.'ir'.O — .57 — i)t. 10 20
3890 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedt. Tliere are two contracts we are talking about, one
between 227 and the association, and the other between Equitable
Research and the association ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, the contract between the Equitable Research
and the association, those negotiations were carried out between the
association and Dio and with Braunstein; is that correct?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When the question was raised as to putting in the
contract that Johnny Dio was going to guarantee that there would be
no jurisdictional picketing, what was the reaction to that?
Mr. Lehrer. I had asked to have it put in the contract, and that
was the purpose that we have gone to Equitable in the first place.
Brnunstein of course said that "No, we can't put that in the contract."
We discussed it with Mr. Dioguardi, and he said, "You have got
my word, and I will guarantee to you that you will never have any
jurisdir+^ional dispute," and in fact we never did have any jurisdic-
tional dispute.
Mr. Kennedy. "Benny the Bug" never came back ?
Mr, Lehrer. He never came back.
Mr. Kennedy. Speaking of Benny the Bug, were yovi introduced
to him as "Benny Ross" or were you introduced to him as "Benny the
Bug"?
Mr. Lehrer. Fortunately, T was not introduced to him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand his name to be Benny Ross?
Mr, Lehrer. I had been told his name was "Benny the Bug," and
I didn't know his name was Benny Ross.
Mr. Kennedy, But he never reappeared after the contract was
signed with Equitable Research?
Mr, Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mickey Finn never reappeared ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct,
Mr, Kennedy, And, in fact, you have had no i:)roblem with any
other miion since this contract has been signed with Equitable
Research ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Chairman, there is a copy of the contract that
was signed.
The Chairman. The Chair presents to you what purports to be a
photostatic copy of the contract about which you have been testifying,
dated August 18. 1955, between Equitable Research Associates, a cor-
poration, and the Auto Glass Dealers Association, Inc,
Will you please examine this document and state if you identify it?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Lehrer. This is a photostatic copy of the contract dated
August 18, 1955, between Equitable Research Associates and my client.
The Chairman. That is the contract you have been talking about.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chairman. You have been testifying about that?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 22.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 22" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3891
Mr. Kennedy. You went on and did sign another contract or signed
a contract with local 227 ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Dio assist at the tail end in that, also?
Mr. Leiirer. Well, Equitable Research had a representative at the
next meeting with local 227, with the executive board of my client.
Mr. Kennedy. The contract was ultimately signed in September?
Mr. Lehrer. It was.
Mr. KJENNEDY. And that contract, you will agree, was a sweet-
heart contract ; is that right ?
Mr. Lehrer. I will agree it was a very favorable contract — to a
one-man employer shop that had no need to join any union in the
first place.
Mr. Kennedy. It was a very soft contract?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do I understand you, you were unable to nego-
tiate this contract between the union and your associates until after
you had engaged the services of Equitable Research?
Mr. Lehrer. That is not a correct statement. Senator.
The Chairman. What is correct ?
Mr. Lehrer. We had practically completed our negotiations and
were about to sign it wlien the question of jurisdictional disputes
arose.
It was at that time that we went to Equitable Research and entered
into the Equitable Research contract.
The Chairman. In other words, when you reached a point in your
negotiations with the union wliere the union could not give you pro-
tection from raiding unions, and picketing that would have disrupted
all of your agi-eement, it was suggested that you go to Johmiy Dio's
group.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chairman. The Research Associates group and enter into a
contract with him ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chairman. That is for protection, and that is what it actually
amounted to, was it not?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chairman". There is no other word that I know to describe it ;
do you ?
Mr. Lehrer. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right. After you had entered into that agree-
ment for protection with the Dio group, then you concluded later,
a little later, your negotiations with the union and signed this contract.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Ives. May I ask a question there?
I would like to ask the witness what these contracts cost. I think
I understand what the contract cost between your association and
the Dio outfit, but what did the contract with 22'7 cost you?
Mr. Lehrer. I don't follow your question, Senator.
Senator Ives. Wliat was paid for all of this business ? You had to
pay something to join the union.
Mr. Lehrer. Oh, I understand. I believe Mr. Kennedy has a chart
that I have prepared, where initiation fees by the members into the
union were listed.
3892 IMPROPER ACTivrriES in the labor field
Mr. Reiss had given an accelerated initiation fee by enii)loyees into
the union and started at $10 a month, and 30 days hiter it went up to
$15 and so on up the scale.
I don't remember the exact figures. It is on that chart that Mr.
Kennedy has.
Senator Ives. Is the counsel going to present this chart? If you
are going to present it, I will not ask these questions, because there is
no point in bringing it out now.
Mr. Kennedy. 1 s this what you are talking about ?
Mr. Lehrer. Is tliar the letter from the union ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehrer. That explains the situation, Senator.
Senator Ives. I will not ask the questions, then.
The Chairman. In the meantime, I want to get this contract in.
The Chair presents to you wdiat purports to be a photostatic copy
of a contract dated tlie 1st day of September 1955, by and between
Local Union 227, UAW-AFL, and the Auto Glass Dealers Associa-
tion.
Now, I will ask you to examine this photostatic copy and see if
you identify it, and state if that is the contract between your asso-
ciation and the union about which you have been testifying.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Lehrer. This is a photostatic copy of the contract entered
into by my client and local 227.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit 23.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 23" for ref-
erence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Tlie Chairman. Senator Ives was interrogating you about what
was actually involved, what the union got out of it, and now I hand
you what purports to be a photostatic copy of a letter dated Augast
30, 1055, to Mr. Stanley Lehrer, Brooklyn, N. Y.. from Harry Reiss,
president of local 227.
I ask you to examine this photostatic copy and state if vou identifv
it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Lehrer. This is a letter sent by the union whicli reflects the
agreement with respect to initiation fees by employees into local 227.
The Chairman. Will you read that letter into the record, sir?
Mr. Lehrer. This letter is dated August 30, 1955, on the letter-
head of Local 227, LTnited Auto Workers, New York City:
At a meeting of the local executive board, the following program of initia-
tion fees and dues- were resolved with regard to the Auto (ll;».ss Dealers
Association employees.
For the first .30 days after the effective date of the master (-(mtract, initia-
tion fees shall l>e .$(:..3.". For the next 80 days, the initiation fee shall be .$10
per member.
After 00 days, fdllowing the effective date of the contract, the initiation fee
shall lie $'jr> foi- iiii (employer member and .$.">() for an eiiiiiloyce meinher.
At all times an employer member shall be a R card member of the nninn.
Work permits in cdnformity with article II of the master contract f probationary
period) shall be issued to employees in members' shops. This shall <'ost the
pr<)l)ationr\ry member .S.". jter month and shall be apiilicable tn rh" initiation
fee of .$."0 upon the completion of the probationary period. All those who are
self-emi)loyed shall become members of the union on a R card basis.
In any shop wliere there are 2 or more men. ] man will he reganlesl as the
employer and not re([uired to join the union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3893
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness a ques-
tion in line with what he has just read, and in line with what has been
said about the fees or whatever they are called in connection with
your association and the Dio outfit.
What is the combined cost to the members of the association?
Mr. Lehrer. I do not understand your question.
Senator Ives. Well, take an example of a member who has two
employees, which would be fair, I think, and you say that is kind of
large and one employee be more general. How much would it cost
where the association is concerned and where the union is concerned ?
Wliat is the total cost for him ?
Mr. Lehrer. He had paid in actual fact for the two employees, a
total of $80 to the association's special labor fund that we had set up.
Of that $80, $50 of it was earmarked for Equitable Research pursuant
to the contract with Equitable Research. The other $30 was retained
by the association, and we still have that money in our association
treasury so that when the 3-year contract with 227 expires, we had a
war fund of some kind to see what we could do at that time, that we
would not be caught short.
Senator Ives. Wliat is that, the first year ?
Mr. Lehrer. That was the total payment he made for the entire
3-year contract, $80.
Senator Ives. That is for 3 years?
Mr. Lehrer. That is right. Now, if it was a shop that just had
employees, where the boss did not have to join, it did not cost anything
further. If it was a shop with two employees, it did not cost anything
further.
A more pointed question would be, How much did it cost the man
who was self-employed and had no employees? He paid $40 into the
association, $25 earmarked for Equitable and $15 earmarked for our
emergency war fund.
In addition, he paid an initiation fee, this self-employed owner, to
the union in line with tlie schedule recited in that letter from local 227.
Senator I\"es. That is the union vou are talking about there at the
last?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes.
Senator I^^s. What is the total? Take the employer with two
employees and I asked you what would be the total.
Mr. Lehrer. $80 would be the total.
Senator Ives. That was for your association for 3 years ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Senator Iv^s. How about the union.
Mr. Lehrer. The man with two employees, the employees were
required to pay the initiation fee.
Senator Ives. What is the total?
Mr. Lehrer. I don't follow you, Senator.
Senator I\tes. What do the employees pay ? What is the total cost ?
Assume yon liave two employees and they belong to the union.
How much do the employees pay over a r3-year period ? They had the
initiation fee, presumably ; that is one thing. There were 2 of them
and they had 2 initiation fees and then they have their annual dues.
Mr. Lehrer. Senator, whether I am confusing your question, I
don't know. There are two things involved. There is that amount
3894 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
that the employer, my client would pay, and there is that amount tiiat
the union employee, the member of the union itself, would pay.
Which are you referring to ?
Senator Ites. I am referring to that now.
Mr. Leiiker. The union employee ?
Senator Ives. Yes, how much do they pay ?
Mr. Lehrer. I believe the dues to the union were $4 per month and
the initiation fee into the union was in line with that schedule pur-
suant to that letter that I read before.
Senator Ives. What would that be? You have 2 employees over
a 3-year period, and you can figure that out.
Mr. Lehrer. The employer paid $80, and the employee paid $6.35
initiation into the union the first 30 days.
Senator Ives. AVhat has the employer got to do with paying dues
to the union ?
Mr. I^EHRER. Nothing.
Senator Ives. That is what I am trying to find out. I know what
the employer paid. He paid $80 for 3 years ; is that right ?
Mr, Lehrer. That is correct.
Senator Ives. All right, now I am talking about the employees, and
what do they pay ?
Mr. Lehrer. $4 a month.
Senator Ives. That is $48 plus the initiation fee. You have 3 years
and that is $144.
Mr. Lehrer. Yes.
Senator Ives. Plus their initiation fees.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Senator Ives. It runs into quite a sizable amount before you get
through. Wliat were their salaries ?
Mr. Lehrer. The salaries in the New York area in the auto-glass
shops range anywhere from $60 a week to approximately $120, It
may vary, it may be higher in some instances and lower in some
instances.
Senator Ives. Did that have any bearing on the dues they paid?
Mr. Lehrer. None whatsoever.
Senator Curtis. Would the distinguished Senator from New York
yield at this point?
Senator Ives. Surely.
Senator Curtis. Take the self-employed man who runs a one-man
shop. He is the owner and with no employees. Wliat, if anything,
would he have to pay to the union ?
Mr. Lehrer. The initiation fee into the union, and the $4 a month
dues for a B card.
Senator Curtis. Even though he was an employer ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. So your one-man shop would have to pay to the
union in 3 years roughly $150 ?
Mr. Lehrer. $144 plus the initiation fee ; yes.
Senator Curtis. And he would have to pay how much to the asso-
ciation ?
Mr. Lehrer. $40 once, to cover the 3-year period.
Senator Curtis. Now, he pays that notwithstanding the fact that
he is not an employee.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct. Senator.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3895
Senator Curtis. I have been glancing at the National Labor Rela-
tions Act, and here is the fundamental principle of it :
Employees shall have the right to self-organization to form, join, or assist
labor organizations, to bargain collectively through representatives of their own
choosing and to engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective
bargaining or other mutual aid or protection.
In other words, it is an employees' act, an act that grants certain
rights and protections and immunities to employees. Here we have
under the cloak of that, organizations going about making levies upon
employers who have no employees.
1 think if there were not crooks and hoodlums involved we have
a practice and a situation at law which is not good.
Senator Ives, were you through ? I shall yield back to you.
Senator Ives. I was going to ask the witness why he did not take
this thing to court.
Mr. Lehrer. I am glad you asked that, Senator. As I stated be-
fore. Senator, the worst thing this individual owner has to fear is the
picket line. Under our New York State law, there are certain grounds
on which we can get an injunction.
Senator I^^s. You mean under the State labor relations act. I
understand that and I realize what you are up against.
Mr. Lehrer. And there is the time element. Senator. If I could
be permitted to answer the distinguished Senator and yourself on the
very problem, let us take every assumption in favor of the employer,
the single entrepreneur, and give him the benefit of every doubt
timewise.
Assume that the Ace Glass Shop, a fictitious shop, opens up his store
on a Monday morning and finds a picket line outside of his door. He
calls his attorney up, and assume he is lucky enough to get his attor-
ney in on a Monday morning, and explains the situation.
By that I mean the attorney may not be engaged elsewhere and
assume further that the attorney can lay aside everything else he has
to do that day, and his stenographer can lay aside everything else she
has got to do that day and prepare the rather long set of papers that
are required to make an application to the supreme court for a tem-
porary injunction.
Giving him the benefit of every doubt, it is now 3 o'clock. The
employer rushes down to the lawyer's office and signs the affidavit for
the injmiction, and the attorney then, gi-anting him every assumption,
and I am saying that repeatedly, runs into the court and finds a judge
to sign the order to show cause.
That means in effect, it is an order to the union, not to stop picket-
ing, because temporai-y restraining orders are very difficult to get,
but to show cause why an order should not be entered stopping the
picketing.
The judge signs this order on Monday and the earliest he could
possibly make this returnable would be on a Thursday. Then he
says in his order that a copy of this order be served upon the union
before Wednesday, 12 noon. We have taken every assumption and
we have our order on Monday afternoon signed.
Now, go and find the union official. If it is summer time, they are
in the country and they are elsewhere and they are at the beach and
there is no one around the office. You can't serve the stenogi'apher
3896 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
in the union office and you can't serve the picket. Our law does not
permit that.
Senator Ives. Wait a minute. You are talking about the State
law'^
Mr. Lehrer. Ye.s, Senator. We must remember that my client
here was involved with State and not Federal law in this particular
instance.
Senator Ives. I am trying to find out about the State law, because
I am going to have something to say when you get through.
Mr. Lehrer. Now, assume we are lucky enough and we serve a
union official prior to Wednesday. In the meantime, the picket line
is marcliing up and down. No deliveries have been made to this small
auto-glass shop who is dependent upon deliveries and retad trade has
bogged down.
The union shops that are referring him work won't cross the picket
line. Yet, the picket line is marching back and forth and it is now
Wednesday. Thursday morning we appear in court.
Nine out of 10 times the union attorney comes in and tells the
judge, "I just received the papers and I have not had a chance to
prepare a reply. I want an adjournment for a day or so."
We are lucky and the judge says, "Argue the motion now and
submit your papers t/omorrow." We argue our motion on Thursday.
On Friday, if we are luclty, we get a decision.
I then must prepare an order, have the court sign it and then find
the union officials once again to serve it on, before picketing can be
stopped. That is next Monday or Tuesday.
In the interim, that shop has been picketed for 7 or 8 days.
There are very, veiy few single-owner shops in New York City,
that can withstand the financial strain of picketing for that long a
time in New York City.
Senator I\^s. May I ask you a question ?
Have you any idea as to whether the State Labor Relations Act can
be amended to help you in that respect ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, Senator.
Senator Ives. Have you prepared amendments for that purpose?
Mr. Lehrer. No ; I have not.
Senator Ives. I was in touch yesterday with the chairman of the
Joint Legislative Committee on Industrial and Labor Conditions, and
I urged him to consider amendments to that act to enable the State
to help you people cope with this kind of a situation. Of course, I
do not know what their program is for the present year, and they may
not be able to get to it, and I hope they are.
But in the meantime, I would suggest that you yourself prepare
amendments and get ready to be heard on the slibject about which you
are talking.
Mr. Lehrer. Would this committee care to hear a recommendation
I have on that line ?
Senator Ives. This committee has nothing to do with it. You are
talking about a State Labor Relations Act which we have nothing to
do with at all. I am talking about what you can do in the State of
New York.
Mr. Lehrer. I appreciate your suggestion.
Senator Ives. I am trying to give you a helpful suggestion. I think
that is where your remedy lies.
IMPROPER ACTrV'ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3897
Mr. Lehrer. I would like the opportunity to answer Senator Cur-
tis' question.
Senator Curtis. I wish to proceed further when Senator Ives is
through.
Mr. Lehrer. I wanted to answer your remarks a few moments ago.
I don't know whether you were directing your excerpts from the
National Labor Relations Act at my client or at the union. I am
inclined to think that perhaps you were a little severe with the client.
Senator Curtis. Oh, no.
Mr. Lehrer. We had no choice in the matter, Senator.
Senator Curtis. I understand that. I merely wish the record to
show how far a minority in the labor movement has gone from the
original concept of the law that gives employees the right to meet
and organize to better themselves.
Mr. Lehrer. I just hope you weren't implying that my client here
was doing it. We were talking about these figures. That is not the
fact.
Senator Curtis. I was talking about the responsibility of Congress
for permitting such things to happen.
I w^ant to ask you a question, and I am going to confine these ques-
tions to that 60 percent of your members that you represent who con-
stitute self-employed people without employees. That was correct,
was it, about 60 percent ?
Mr. Lehrer. I could say so, sir.
Senator Curtis. What would happen if one of those self-employed
men with no employees said, "I am going to resist the union and I am
going to resist all of the efforts of my associate self-employed people
to pacify tliem in any way" ?
What would happen to him ?
Mr. Lehrer. I think that I outlined that to you a few moments
ago.
Senator Curtis. But briefly, just what would happen to him?
Mr. Lehrer. I would guess he would be out of business within a
short period of time.
Senator Curtis. Would anything else happen to him? Suppose
he happens to be an individual who financially could stand it for a
little while. What else would happen to him ?
jSIr. Lehrer. I was directing my remarks strictly from the financial
point of view in what he would lose in terms of immediate money,
from business loss, and from wholesale accounts that he would lose
and perhaps take years to win back. Our field is very highly competi-
tive in New York City.
Senator Curtis. Well, we will not go into the question of whether
or not he would suffer threats
Mr. Lehrer. Is that what you are driving at? T couldn't possibly
answer that question, and I don't know.
Senator Curtis. But he would be out of business.
Mr. Lehrer. I would think so, sir.
Senator Curits. So here we have people using an act written for
employees, making a levy on someone that is not an employee and has
no employees, saying, "You go out of business or you deal with us."
That is what it amounts to, does it not ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes.
3898 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Now, do you think that general practice lias any
effect upon the trend toward monopoly, and the driving out of
business of small-business men? I am not confining my question to
the auto glass people.
Mr, Lehrer. I couldn't possibly render an opinion, a curbstone
opinion so fast, Senator, on a subject of that nature.
Senator Curtis. Most of these people are small-business people.
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, Senator.
Senator Curtis. It does add to their burdens and worries and
problems in maintaining themselves as small business.
Mr. Lehrer. Very much so.
Senator Curtis. And it adds costs at a time when they have many
lawful requirements to meet in taxes, permits, licenses, rents, and
increasing costs, and so on ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes ; that is correct. Senator.
Senator Curtis. I do not expect you to provide an answer for this
committee, but I do want to raise for the record this proposition:
That is the legal situation which we permit here not only drives
small-business men out of business, but it prohibits a lot of other
people from becoming owners and operators. It is destroying one of
the things that makes our economy go, the desire of people who
work to go into business for themselves, and thus they make oppor-
tunities for other people coming along and seeking jobs.
I want to say you have been a good witness here. Sometimes it is
said that a lawyer is a poor witness. You have provided good evi-
dence to the contrary.
(At this point. Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. I would like to have you follow me for just a mo-
ment. I think the record is clear but let us take the one man, the self-
employed person, and find out what he had to pay under the two
contracts.
First, he paid $40 to your association.
Mr. Lehrer. That is right. That is correct.
The Chairman. Fifteen dollars of that, however, was set aside for
a war chest, or whatever you term it.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chairman. But he paid that, and he had to pay that because
of these conditions, that $15.
Mr. Lehrer. I am sorry, I couldn't hear the last part of your
question.
The Chairman. He had to pay $15, although it did not go to these
people.
Mr. Lehrer. We still have that money in a trust fund.
The Chairman. But he had to pay it. That is the only reason for
paying it into the association — for protection.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chairman. So he pays first the $40 to the association. Next
he has to pay $6.35 if he comes in within the first 30 days.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chairman. Tliat is an initiation fee to the union. That makes
$46.35 initially.
Then for 3 years he pays $48 a year dues, or $144.
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3899
The Chairman. That makes a total of $190.35, the very minimum
that he has to pay for the 3-year protection.
Mr. Lehrer. Providing of course he came within that first 3-month
period.
The Chairman. I am talking about that.
Mr. Lehrer. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, the others have to pay more ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. But that is the minimum under the contract that
anyone got by with, under the two contracts ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is right.
The Chairman. I think the record is clear.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Lehrer, do you represent any other em-
ployer associations?
Mr. Lehrer. Do I represent any other employer associations ?
Senator Goldwater. Yes.
Mr. Lehrer. I do, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Which one.
Mr. Lehrer. I represent a National Auto & Plate Glass Dealers
Associaiton, having nothing to do with the New York association,
and with no union affiliations whatsoever.
Senator Goldwater. How about New York City itself; do you
represent any others ?
Mr. Lehrer. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Have you ever had to, in connection with your
work with that national organization, enter into any negotiations
with Johnny Dio ?
Mr. Lehrer. No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Now, Mr. Lehrer, when you were before the
grand jury, you identified Harry Reiss as the person who recommended
that you see Johnny Dio, and the Equitable Eesearch Corp.?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Now immediately after you received the sub-
pena to appear before the New York County grand jury, did you meet
with Johnny Dio in a restaurant?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. In New York City ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir; I did, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Did he suggest at that time any direction that
your testimony might take ?
Mr. Lehrer. No. Tliere was a very brief conversation with re-
spect to something involved in my testimony to the effect that when
I met him that day on some matter concerning this contract, he asked
me, or said to me,*"You don't recall who recommended me," or some-
thing to that effect. I just initially said, "I don't remember," and
that dropped the conversation.
Senator Goldwater. But you subsequently definitely identified
Eeiss as the man who sent you there?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Now, at any time during your contacts with
Johnny Dio were you threatened ?
Mr. Lehrer. Never, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Either by him or by others?
3900 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN; THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Lehrer. Never, sir.
Senator Goldwater. In view of the fact that you have given some
rather strong testimony before the grand jury and before this com-
mittee, strong I would say against the activities of Mr, Dio, do you
feel any danger today in testifying as you have ?
Mr. Lehrer. I do not, sir.
Senator Goldwater. No threats have been made against you?
Mr. Lehrer. No, sir. The problem I have presented here, Senator,
is not only confined to Equitable Research, but it is confined through-
out this country to the small-business man. I wanted the opportunity
to answer the Senator before, that I feel that certain innuendos have
arisen from these committee hearings where small-business men are
beginning to appear that all they seem to do is enter into collusive
contracts with unions, which is not the fact. For every union con-
tract entered into by a small-business man that you may term collu-
sive, there are many many legitimate contracts. I feel that the small-
business men should be protected to that sense, and should not be
brought to his knees by the threat of picketing, and the threat that
he may be entering into a collusive contract.
Senator Goldwater. Now, you have outlined a situation that exists
in New York, and we know it exists in other communities around the
country, and as you suggested it exists to a somewhat limited extent.
But here just 2 or 3 days ago, or possibly the last part of last week,
a statement was made by one of the teamster heads, a man with am-
bition, to the effect he was going to try to bring all transportation in
this country under the domination of his union.
Now, it is not very difficult for us to understand what would happen
if that man or any one man in this country held in his hands the
transportation of the United States.
What you have described as happening in New York from rackets,
and picketing of one-man shops, could happen across the length and
breadth of this land. To me it is one of the most dangerous state-
ments that has been made by a union leader, a union leader either
responsible or irresponsible, because there isn't a small business in
America nor many large ones that today with the margin of profits
being what they are, and with taxes being what they are, could survive
a teamster effort to deny him either transportation into his shop or
from his shop.
I think what you have pointed up, and very clearly pointed up,
as existing in New York, can serve as a warning to the people of this
country of what will happen when one man — I don't care whether
his name is Jimmy Hoffa or Walter Reuther, or Joe Smith — has in his
hands or acquires the power to say to the business people of this coun-
try and to the public of this countrj^ "You cannot move goods in and
out of your sho]) and you cannot even travel to and from the cities
where you want to travel."
I take this opportunity to say what I said because you are the first
one to my mind to give us a graphic example of how picketing and
the pressure behind it works, and the answer to Senator Curtis' ques-
tion, how it is almost impossible to obtain relief in time under our laws
today.
I think that there was a time when a businessman could last a month,
or 2, or 6 months, but he can't do it today with the profits being what,
they are.
IMPROPER ACTrvrriES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3901
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Senator Goldwater. I hope the people of this country take heed,
because the handwriting is on the wall, and the hand is moving the
chalk even further. I hope they will wake up to the evidence which
is being presented before this committee daily, that power is the evil
that confronts the future of the unions of this country.
I liope they take heed, too, and do not allow this power to accrue in
one man's hands.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. A bit ago I quoted from the National Labor Rela-
tions Act concerning the basic rights of individual employees.
This is not a question, Mr. Witness.
I merely also want to read into the record at this point from section
8(b) (4) (A). It provides:
It shall be an unfair labor practice for a labor organisation or its agent
and then coming down to that section
forcing or requiring any employer or self-employed person to join any labor or
employee organization.
The whole activity engaged in by these alleged union agents was
basically unlawful.
(At this point. Senator McClellan withdi-ew from the liearing
room. )
Senator Ives. Go ahead, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. On the payments to P^quitable Research, I would
like to get that into the record, Mr. Lehrer. On October 19, 1955, you
sent a check to Mr. Noah Braunstein ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And then on December 7, 1955, and on January 19,
195H. There were three cliecks, the first one on October 19, 1955, for
$499.80, the second oue on December 7, 1955, for $199.92, and the third
one on January 19, 1956, for $108.29.
Senator Ives. I want to hand the witness photostatic copies of the
three checks referred to by the counsel, and letters accompanying them,
which indicate what they are. I would like to have you identify
them, if you will, please.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Kennedy. That makes a total of $808.01.
Mr. Lehrer. Do you just want me to identify them as being the
checks ?
Senator Ives. That is right.
Mr. Lehrer. They are the payments made by my client pursuant to
the Equitable contract to Equitable Research Association Corp.
Senator Ives. That applies to all three '?
Mr. Lehrer. I am sorry, Senator?
Senator Ives. That applies to all three })ayments?
Mr. Lehri5r. All three payments; yes.
Senator I^•ES. Those will be exhibit 24 A, B, and C.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit 24 A, B, and C"
for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. H985-8990.)
Mr. Kennedy. That was for the first year of a H-year contract?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
3902 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. What were the arrangements? When the contract
was signed, were all of the shops brought in, all of the glass shops in
on this contract ?
Mr. Lehrer. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. There were some that were not signed ?
Mr, Lehrer. I would say about one-third of the membership of the
client ultimately came into the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Reiss want all of the shops in the union ?
Mr. Lehrer. Apparently he must have.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, just answer the question. Did he want all the
shops ?
Mr. Lehrer. I don't follow your question.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ask you for a list of all the shops ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes. He asked us for a list and we refused him.
Mr. Kennedy. You refused to turn over the list ?
Mr. Lehrer. Yes.
Mr. IvENNEDY. So it was up to him to find the other shops ; is that
correct ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Under the contract arrangements with Dio, his pay-
ment or his fee would depend on how many people local 227 signed
up ; is that right ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. If they signed up more, if they got the rest of the
shops, his fee would get that much greater ; is that right ?
Mr. Lehrer. It was a contingent arrangement, that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. This $808 was for the first year ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any payment made in the second year ?
Mr. Lehrer. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason ?
Mr. Lehrer. The second payment became due somewhere around
September of 1956. At that time, Mr. Dioguardi was under indict-
ment, under several indictments in New York, and the client voted to
disaffirm the contract and make no further payments.
Mr. Kennedy. And so no payments have been made ?
Mr. Lehrer. And no payments have been made.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you urge the membership, or did the association
urge the membership, to join the union back in 1955 ?
Mr. Lehrer. They did not.
Senator Curtis. What was that last question, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Kennedy. I tried to find out whether the association urged its
membership to sign up with the union, gettting in with the union at
that time.
You say they did not ?
Mr. Lehrer. Well, we had sent the communication out regarding
the contract and what was involved. Otlier than that, there was no
urging that I know of by any member of tlie client to join the union.
Senator Curtis. I want to ask a question in that connection. Inso-
far as you know, did the union ever seek out the employees and advise
them of their desire to organize and the benefits that might come to
them?
(At this point Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3903
Mr. Lehrer. There were several shops that I had been told about
that the union had gone in and signed the employees, yes. There
were several shops.
Senator Ives. Mr. Lehrer, I have in my hand what purports to be
a notice of the Auto Dealers Association, Inc., dated September 6,
1955, and headed "Please read carefully. Indifference will cost you
money" and again '"Please read carefully," signed by Frank Lurrey,
president, Stanley Lehrer, counsel, and Morris S. Gorman, executive
secretary.
I would like to hand you this copy and see if you can identif}^ it.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Lehrer. Yes, I recall this letter. Senator.
Senator Ives. That would indicate, would it not, that your associa-
tion rather urged the members to join?
Mr. Lehrer. No, Senator, for this reason. We have a meeting of
our association, as in any organization, and attendance is a problem.
It is up to the officials of the association to do what they can to in-
crease attendance. We had a provision in the contract with 227 that
called for lower initiation fee if they joined within 30 days. The
executive board felt that this must be pointedly called to the attention
of many members who never come to meetings and who are not ap-
prised of what is going on. If it weren't done that way, then 3 or 4
months later Reiss would walk into their shops and demand a $50
initiation fee, wlien, had they been informed as this letter, which you
just showed me, they could have paid $6.35.
This is the extent that I can recall of any communication going out
to the client with respect to the very problem you are now raising.
Senator Ives. That will be exhibit No. 25.
Mr. Kennedy. Could I read it into the record ?
Senator Ives. Yes.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 25," and follows.)
Mr. Kennedy. Dated September 6, 1955.
Please Read Carefully
Indifference Will Cost You Money
Please Read Carefully
At the regular body meeting of September 1, your association ratified and ap-
proved a master union contract with local 227, UAW-AFL. This contract be-
came operative as of Septemlier 1, 1955, and is now available to all members of
the association in good standing.
In order to take advantage of the most favorable terms contained in this
master agreement, you are required to come within its provisions no later tlian
September 30. This is of utmost importance as you can save considerable money
by prompt action.
Accordingly, please phone the association office as soon as possible, and make
the necessary arrangements. Evening appointments will be made if required.
To the many shops who have already com)ilied, be advised that any further
inquiries are also to be directed to the association office.
Very truly yours,
Frank Lurrey, President.
Stanley Lehrer, Counsel.
Morris S. Gorman, Executive Secretary.
That is on the stationery of the Auto Glass Dealers Association,
Inc.
So there was some urging to come in within the provisions of the
contract ?
3904 IMPROPER ACTIVrriDS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, Ijehrer. As I stated before, I don't call it an urging. I just
call that a method of communicating with the type of membership that
generally takes no notice of what is in a meeting announcement.
Senator Ives. It occurs to me, Mr. Counsel, that that notice can be
taken either way.
Mr. Kennedy. Under the provisions of the contract, it provided
what we have described as a soft contract, and provided for a 48-hour
week, did it not?
Mr. Leiirer. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And 6 holidays for the year?
Mr. Lehrer. I recall that being correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And there wouldn't be any vacation until after the
individual had been employed for a year, and then there would be
1 week's vacation ?
Mr. Lehrer. If that is what the contract has. I believe you are
stating it correctly.
Mr. Kennedy. And there were also no minimum wage provisions?
Mr. Lehrer. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And there were also no welfare fund provisions ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any advantage for the employee? I un-
derstand they are 1-man shops or a lot of them are l-maii shops, but
was there any advantage for the employee in this contract?
Mr. Lehrer. Well, the only benefit the employee got from tlie con-
tract was a $2 a week raise the first year, a $2 a week raise the second
year, and a $2 a week raise the third year.
Mr. Kennedy. Beyond that there was really no advantage?
Mr. Lehrer. None, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And those are the raises that would ordinarily be
granted by the association anyway ?
Mr. Lehrer. I couldn't possibly answer whether or not an employer
would give an employee a raise.
Mr. Kennedy. Ordinarily, from your experience, wouldn't that be
the raise that would be normal ?
Mr. Lehrer. The labor problem with respect to the auto-glass shops
in New York City is such that very few employees stay too long.
They go into business for themselves.
Mr. Kennedy. So that wouldn't be any advantage. So the associa-
tion iuem]:)ers were paying $190 over a o-year period almost as a trib-
ute or almost as an extortion brouglit about by local 227 and l)v the
Equitable Research of Johnny Dio ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lettrer. If you are asking me to term it "extortion,'' T think
you are putting it a little unfairly to me.
Mr. Kennedy. How would you describe this payment of $190 over
a 8-year |)eriod when there was no advantage at all for the employees,
and that at least .^O percent of those who signed up were 1-nian shoj^s?
Mr. Lehrer. In the most favorable term tliat I can })ut it for my
client, I would say it was the penalty for lack of proper legislation to
avoid this very situation.
Mr. Kennedy. It is a penalty for your client ?
Mr. Lehrer. I say putting it in the most favora})le lifi:ht to the
client, I say that tliis was a penalty for the lack of proper legislation
to protect and tivoid a situation such as this.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3905
The Chaikman. Do you feel that legislation is needed ?
Mr. Lehrer. I do, sir.
The Chairman. Have you any recommendations you would care
to submit ?
Mr. Lehrer. Senator Ives has already asked me that.
The Chairman. That pertains to the New York law ?
Mr, Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chairman. I am speaking of the Federal statutes.
Mr. Lehrer. Only insofar — 1 don't know how many of my clients
would be engaged in interstate commerce that would come under
Federal law.
The Chairman. You have given no thought to that ?
Mr. Lehrer. Well, the same thought would go so far as a State act
is concerned as to a Federal act. I feel that the power of picketing
has been abused insofar as the small-business man is concerned. I
feel rather than put the burden of proof on a small-business employer
as to why the picketing should be stopped, I believe a union should
make application to a proper administrative tribunal for a permit to
do picketing on notice to the employer, so that they can argue it out
before picketing starts and before irreparable damage occurs, whether
it is on a State, National, or Federal level being immaterial at the
present moment.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. What it got doAvn to in fact Avas the $190 was being
paid over the 3-year period to ))revent other unions from coming in
and causing a jurisdictional problem?
Mr. Lehrer. That is not so, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. AVhat was it?
Mr. Lehrer. Of the $190, $141 was what we discussed before, the
actual payment of $4 a month dues to local 227.
Mr. Kennedy. There was no advantage in that.
Mr. Lehrer. The jurisdictional question you are referring to re-
quired the payment of $2.5 to Equitable Research.
Mr. Kennedy. We discussed the fact that out of the $111, there was
no advantage to anyone for that. So that had to be paid for the
same reason that the payment Avas made to Equitable Eesearch.
Mr. Lehrer. $111 was not ])aid to Equitable Research.
Mr. Kennedy. $114 was paid to 227, is that correct?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. There was no advantage to anyone, to any employee,
for the payment to 227, is that correct ?
Mr. Lehrer. There was no advantage for any employer to pay to
227.
Mr. Kennedy. There was also no advantage to any employee be-
cause of the terms of the contract. There was no advantage for
anyone?
Mr. Lehrer. They got a $6 raise over the o-year period. Whether
you want to term it an advantage or not, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You have already said that the employees wouldn't
stay there that long, Mr. Lehrer, and it would probabl}^ be that they
would give that kind of a raise anyway. So it really wasn't any advan-
tage for the employee, and certainly no advantage for the employer.
89330— 5,7— pt. 10 21
3906 IMPROPER ACnVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The money was being paid to 227 and to Equitable Research to
prevent other unions from coming in and causing difficulty.
Mr. Lehrer. I repeat, of that money only $25 can be applied to the
jurisdictional question. If we had wanted to sign the contract with
local 227, there wouldn't be the need for that additional $25 or $40
payment for jurisdiction.
Mr. Kennedy. Would they have signed the contract with local 227
if there couldn't have been this guaranty from Equitable Research that
there would be no jurisdictional picketing?
Mr. Lehrer. Mr. Kennedy, I cannot answer a hypotlietical question.
Mr. Kennedy. It is not hypothetical, because you had a meeting on
it, JSIr. lehrer, in which you discussed this, and were about to sign
with Harry Reiss, and the membership raised the question as to
whether he could guarantee there would be no jurisdictional problem.
Mr. Lehrer. You will recall I told you that the negotiations had
broken down with 227 on the jurisdictional question. The jurisdic-
tional question having been resolved, we then signed with 227. I do
not know what would have happened had the jurisdictional question
not been resolved.
Mr. Kennedy. But at least the negotiations broke down until that
guaranty was given by Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct.
The Chapman. I have just one question. Counsel was interro-
gating you about benefits, if any, under this contract for the employee.
You pointed out that all j^ou could say is that they got a $6-a-week
raise over a 3-year period.
Mr. Lehrer. And it might conceivably bring some vacation bene-
fits that he might not have had. I don't know, truthfully, though.
The Chairman. We can agree on this, can we not, that any benefits
to the employee were quite negligible?
Mr. Lehrer. I will agree to that. Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there efforts made by the union during the
period of 1956, to lower the workweek from a 48-hour workweek to
a 40-hour workweek ?
Mr. Lehrer. In 1956 ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehrer. I believe, and I am very vague in recollection now,
that we had received a communication from the union that they
wanted to renegotiate the contract with respect to the workweek. I
am a little vague on this. I believe that was the communication we
had. A telephone call was made to Equitable Research and that was
the last we ever heard of that.
Mr, Kennedy. Did you talk to Johnny Dioguardi on that ?
Mr. Lehrer. Whether I spoke to Mr. Braunstein or Mr. Dioguardi,
I do not remember.
Mr. Kennedy. But on the initial request to enter into iiegotiations
to lower the workweek from 48 hours to 40 hours, you then made a
call to Equitable Research and there was no more heard from Harry
Reiss or anyone from 227 on that?
Mr. Lehrer. That is right. The contract was a 3-year contract and
did not call for any renegotiations of any type during the term of
the contract.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3907
The Chairman. I hand you a photostatic copy of what apparently
is a carbon copy of a letter, together with some attachments. I ask
you to examine them and state if you identify them.
( Document handed to witness. )
The Chairman. Would you state what it is, please?
Mr. Lehrer. This letter was mailed by me on behalf of the client
after a meeting of the executive board. The meeting had been called
and one of the items of business was a letter we had received from the
union to the effect that they wanted to renegotiate the contract. Do
you have that letter ?
The Chairman. I believe I have it. I present to you another
photostatic copy of an original letter to you, or to your association
that you represent, and I ask you to examine it and state if you
identify it.
(Document handed to witness.)
The Chairman. If you will identify that, state what it is.
Mr. Lerher. This is a letter dated May 11, 1956, from the union to
the association.
Do you want me to read this letter ?
The Chairman. That letter may be made exhibit 26, the one you
are now testifying about.
Go ahead.
Mr. Lehrer. This letter, in effect — well, it is a letter addressed to
the association.
Please be advised that pursuant to the instructions of our members who
are employees of your members, we desire to enter into further negotiations
with you with particuilar respect to the question of reducing the hours of work
to 40 hours per week. We should appreciate your arranging for such nego-
tiations with us for a date prior to June 1, 1956.
The Chairman. By whom is that letter signed?
Mr. Lehrer. The letter has been signed Local 227, by Arthur Santa
Maria, secretary-treasurer.
The Chairman. That is made exhibit 26.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 26," for reference
and will be found in the appendix on p. 3991.)
The Chairman. Now your reply thereto that you testified about a
moment ago.
Mr. Lehrer. The reply to that was dated May 22, 1956.
Local 227, UAW.
Gentlemen, in reply to your letter of May 11, please be advised that I have
been instructed by my client, the Auto Dealers Association, to inform you
that they will not consider entering into any negotiations at the present time
with regard to reducing the workweek to 40 hours.
That is signed by myself.
The Chairman. That letter may be made exhibit 27.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 27," for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 3992.)
The Chairman. In the meantime, what had transpired after you
received the letter that has been made exhibit No. 26 ?
Mr. Lehrer. A meeting
The Chairman. That is, in between the time that you replied.
Mr. Lehrer, A meeting was held by the executive board of my
client, at which time that May 11 letter from the union to the client
was read, and they decided that they were not going to renegotiate,
3908 IMPROPER ACTIVrriEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD
and instructed me to put in on record that we will not renegotiate.
Simultaneously with my mailing of the letter to go on record that we
were not going to renegotiate, I placed a call on behalf of the client to
either Mr. Braunstein or Mr. Dioguardi informing him of the
situation, and that is the last we heard of it.
The Chairman. After you got your message to Dioguardi, you
never lieard any more of it 'i
Mr. Lehrer. No ; we never did.
The Chairman. That was part of the protection you were paying
for?
Mr. Lehrer. The contract called for the labor-relations consultant
between the union and the association. I read it as such and I used
that provision in that Equitable contract as such.
The Chairman. You used it as a protection ?
Mr. Lehrer. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. Senator Gokhvater ?
Senator Goldwater, Mr. Lehrer, before the association signed the
agreement with 227, wliat other locals had been trying to organize
this particular industry ?
Mr. Lehrer. The other locals were local No. 5, local 2;^0, local 259,
and 1 or 2 others.
Senator Goldwater. 210, 211?
Mr. Lehrer. I couldn't say definitely yes or no, Senator.
Senator Goldwater. Why did the negotiations with those other
locals fail?
Mr. Lehkek. There were no negotiations with the other locals.
After 227 started picketing some of the shops, some shops they would
picket, and some shops their organizer would just stop in and talk to
the people involved and leave with no picketing. Thereafter, some
of these other locals that we have mentioned here would come around
with the same story. They actually never did any picketing that I
know of personally, or never contacted anybodj^ officially in the asso-
ciation to enter into any negotiations.
Senator Goldwater. "When you went to this research organization
of Mr. Dio's, would it not have been possible to have signed up with
one of these other locals and avoided the necessity of doing business
with that firm?
Mr. Lehrer. We would have that fear, Senator, that if we signed
with local X that locals A, B, C, and I), would come along and say
"We were here first. Why did you sign up with local X when we
were here first?"
Senator Goldwater. Well, they were not actually there first; were
they ?
Mr. Lehrer. Tliat was the very crux of the ]:)roblem. They were
not actualh^ there first, and that was why local 227 was the local with
whom Ave contracted.
Senator Goldwater. But these other locals did attempt, and they
made some etl'orts to organize the industry ^
Mr. Lehrer. Yes; they did.
Senator (toldwater. And do you feel that if you had signed witli
any one of those in order to keep from doing business Avith Mr. Dio,
that you would still be in trouble ? Is that it ?
Mr. Lehrer. I felt that Avay at that time, yes. Senator.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3909
Senator Goldwater. Just one moment, Mr. Chairman.
What would the central council have said about an outside organ-
ization like Mr. Dio's research association moving into the field of a
union if you had already signed with, say, local 5, which just comes
to my sight ?
Mr. Leiirer. Not only don't I know much about the central council,
I couldn't possibly answer what they would say, nor do I know any
remedy that was afforded to us through that.
Senator Goedwater. Are there any other examples that come to your
mind that are similar to this, where the fear of Mr. Dio's organization
prevented an association from signing with some other local ?
Mr. Leiirer. I know of no other examples, Senator.
Senator Goldwai-er. This is the only one.
If you had to do it over again, would you do it the way you did it
or M'ould you go back to one of the other locals ?
Mr. Lehrer. It wasn't a question of going back to the other locals ;
227 had most of the shops in tlie sense that they had been picketing
most of them. One of the feelings that I didn't mention before that
we had at the time was that if we were going to sign with a union,
we would prefer to have one industrywide. We were looking ahead
3 years lience, that if we had to put up a fight, we would only be fight-
ing 1 union and not 6 or 7. If I had it to do all over again, I don't
know.
Senator Goldwater. Would it not have been just as easy to have
fought, say, 259?
Mr. Leiirer, We wanted to fight. We wanted to fight very badly.
We held a special meeting and everybody got up and made pretty
speeches about fighting. But fighting lasted 3 or 4 days when they
were picketed, and that ended the fighting.
Senator Goldwater. Tliat is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
The Ciiair3l\n. Are there any further questions?
If not, thank you verj^ much, jNIr. Lehrer.
Mr. Louis Boyar.
(Members present at this point: Senators McClellan, Ives, Gold-
water, Mundt, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Will you be sworn, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. BoYAR. I do.
(At this point. Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS BOYAR
The Chairman. Mr, Boyar, will you state your name, your place
of residence, and your business or occupation, please, sir ?
Mr. BoYAR. My name is Louis Boyar. I live at 5514 Kings High-
way, Brooklyn.
The CiTAiRJMAN. Would you pull the microphone closer to you,
please ?
Mr. BoYAR. I have an auto glass shop on the East New York section,
in Brooklyn.
The Chairman. How long have you been in that business?
Mr. BoYAR. About 17 years.
3910 IMPROPER ACnVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The CHAiRMAisr, Seventeen years ?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you talked to members of the staff of the
committee and know generally the line of interrogation to expect ?
Mr. BoYAR. About what ?
The Chairman. Have you talked to members of the staff about
your testimony ?
Mr. BoYAR, Yes, I did.
The Chairman. Have you elected to waive counsel? You do not
care to have counsel present to advise you while you testify ?
Mr. BoYAR. I don't really know. I guess I don't need a counsel.
The Chairman. You guess you do not need counsel?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
The Chairman. If at any time you think you do, advise the Chair.
Mr. Counsel, proceed.
Mr. IVENNEDY. I just havc a few questions of Mr. Boyar, Mr.
Chairman.
You run and own a glass shop in New York City; is that right?
Mr. BoYAR. Correct.
Mr. Kennedy. During 1955, did pickets come to your shop ?
Mr. BoYAR. They did.
The Chairman. Speak up, please.
Mr. BoYAR. They did.
(At this point, Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Mr. Kennedy. What was the first thing you heard from the pickets ?
Who did you first talk to ?
Mr. BoYAR. I didn't speak to anybody at the time. They just came
in and they picketed me.
Mr. Kennedy. They picketed you ?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Had they discussed the matter with your employees
prior to that time ?
Mr. BoYAR. No ; they didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat did you do ? What steps did you take ?
Mr. Boyar. There was nothing I could do. I asked them why they
were picketing.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio did you ask ?
Mr. BoYAR. I think it was Reiss, at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. Harry Reiss ?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. "\^niat did he say ?
Mr. BoYAR. He said, "We want to unionize your shop."
Mr. Kennedy. What did you say ?
Mr. BoYAR. I said, "I guess you will have to ask the men whether
they want to unionize."
Senator Mundt. Do I understand that before they came up to you
at all you looked out your window and saw pickets ?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And no one discussed membership at all, with
either you or your employees ?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Did the pickets carry signs ?
Mr. BoYAR. They did.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3911
Senator Mundt. Before they had inquired whether you would join
the union ?
Mr. BoYAR, That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You suggested to Harry Reiss that he see the
employees ?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right ; after hours.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he talk to the employees?
Mr. BoYAR. He did.
Mr. Kennedy. What did they decide?
Mr. BoYAR. Well, they were undecided. The first day they didn't
know what to do.
Mr. Kennedy. But they didn't decide to join the union?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. They did not decide?
Mr. BoYAR. No ; they didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. The following day, were there pickets outside?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes ; there were.
Mr. Kennedy. Was this hampering your business ?
Mr. BoYAR. It certainly was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they continue all that day ?
Mr. BoYAR. They did.
Mr. Kennedy. And did the members of your plant, your employees,
decide to join the union then ?
Mr. BoYAR. No; they didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. And did the picketing continue the following day?
Mr. BoYAR. They did.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, did you have any con-
versation with anyone regarding what steps could be taken ?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate that to the committee?
Mr. BoYAR. Someone stopped off and dropped a card off and asked
me to get ahold of someone, or that they will get in touch with me,
in reference to the pickets, to get the pickets off the
Mr. KJENNEDY. Someone stopped off and dropped a card?
Mr. BoYAR. Off at my place.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is someone?
Mr. BoYAR. I don't know. I remember the first name only.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the first name ?
Mr. BoYAR. Milton or Milty.
Mr. Kennedy. Milty came by and dropped the card off?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right, and asked if I would be interested in
taking the pickets off. I said, "I certainly would." I said, "What
am I supposed to do?" He said, "I will have somebody call you."
I got a call that afternoon, and they told us to meet them some-
where on the East Side. I spoke to my counselor from the associa-
tion, and he was against meeting this fellow to talk about the meet-
ing. He came down to the East Side
(At this point. Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. You decided to go anyway, with your counsel ?
Mr. BoYAR. I finally had my counsel come along.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Mr. Lehrer?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know who you were going to meet ?
Mr. BoYAR. No ; I didn't.
3912 IMPROPER ACTIVITIEIS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. You just had a card from somebody you didn't know
who had a card and wlio said if you want to get the pickets off, come
down and meet tliis fellow you don't know, on the east side ?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right. I was desperate at the time, because it
was the third day at my shop, and it really hurt m}^ business. I
asked this fellow what he coulcl do, when we did meet him. I sug-
gested raising $5,000 if the members of the association would be willing
to go along witli it, if it could be straightened out. He said
Mr. Kennedy. You said, "If you could get the membership to go
along, that you could raise $5,000, if he could get the pickets off"?
Mr. BoYAR. If the members would go along. He said he would
let me know.
Mr. Kennedy. "\'^niat else did he say? Did he say he would have
to see or talk to anyone?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes; he said he had to speak to "J. D."
Mr. Kennedy. Did he give his first name ?
Mr. BoYAR. No; the second name.
IVIr. Kennedy. Did he give the second name ?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes ; the second name was Stark.
Mr. Kennedy, You say you talked to this man who identified him-
self, the one you were talking to, at this restaurant on the east side.
He identified himself as Stark?
Mr. BoYAR. Tliat is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You talked about the fact that you could perhaps
get him $5,000 to get the pickets taken off ; is that right ?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say to you at that time what he would have
to do or who he would have to see ?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say ?
Mr, BoYAR. He said he would have to meet J. D.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he give you the first name?
Mr. BoYAR. I tliink he said Johnny D.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know who Johnny D. was at that time!
Mr. BoYAR. No; I didn't. At the time, I didn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened then ?
Mr. BoYAR. He said he would call us the following day and let us
know as to what they spoke about. I got a call the next morning and
he said, "There is nothing you can do. You better join the union."
The Chair]\ian. Will you pull the microphone up to you a little
closer or speak a little louder? Your voice is not coming over very
well.
Mr. Kennedy. So arrangements then were made to join the union;
is that right, by the association ?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes ; by the association.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, when it broke down as to whether the
union could guarantee against other unions coming in and picketing,
the association retained the services of Equitable Research?
Mr, BoYAR. That I don't know anything about.
Mr, Kennedy. You were not involved?
Mr. Boyar. No ; I wasn't.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3913
Mr. Kennedy. This individual that you met at the restaurant on
the East Side called and said Johnny D. couldn't do anything about it
then ?
Mr. BoYAR. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?
If not, thank you, sir.
May I ask you, first, how many employees do you have ?
Mr. BoYAR. Two emplo3^ees.
The Chairman. You have two?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
The Chairman. Is that an average shop, your size?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
The Chairman. That is about an average size?
Mr. BoYAR. Yes.
The Chairman. Thank you. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out some back-
ground on this, that Johnny Dioguardi was the regional director
of the UAW-AFL in New York City. As such, he sponsored Con-
sentino and Santa Maria when they received their charter. Then he
allegedly left the labor union and set up this Equitable Research.
When 227 went in and attempted to picket these glass shops, Johnny
Dio had this close relationship between himself, David Consentino,
Arthur Santa Maria, and Reiss.
The Chairman. He placed them in business, in fact.
(At this point. Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. We see the situation wliere, after the nego-
tiations started, Harry Reiss told the representatives of the glass
shops that he could not guarantee against jurisdictional picketing,
but Harry Reiss suggested Johnny Dio as somebody who could guar-
antee that. They went and made this arrangement with Johnny Dio
and Equitable Research and paid him what would amount to more
than $2,500 for the 3-year period, but with the understanding that
as Harry Reiss and 227 were able to get more of the workers into the
union, that Johnny Dio, speaking for Equitable Research, would re-
ceive a greater amount of money.
So there was this close relationsliip during this period of time be-
tween Equitable Research and some of these unions. We are going to
go into this matter to some extent a little further at a later time.
The Chairman. All right. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Now we have another situation, another employer
who was a]:)proached by one of these unions. We are now going to
try to develop wliat steps he took in order to keep the union away.
For that reason, we are calling Mr. Louis Pope.
(Present at this point in the proceedings: Senators McClellan and
Mundt.)
The Chairman. Mr. Pope, come forward, please.
Will you be sworn, please ?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select conunittee sliall be the truth, the wliole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Pope. I do, sir.
3914 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS POPE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
NOEMAN TUKK
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Pope. My name is Louis Pope, P-o-p-e, and I reside at 1292
Westchester Avenue, Bronx, New York City. I am the coowner of
a collision automotive repair shop, and at present the president of
the Auto Body Repairmen's Association of New York City.
The Chairman. You have counsel present to represent you?
Mr. Pope. I do.
The Chairman. Counsel, will you identify yourself for the rec-
ord, please?
Mr. Turk. I am Norman Turk, of 50 Court Street, Brooklyn,
N. Y., associated with the firm of Dubow, Turk & Roberts.
The Chairman. Thank you.
You may proceed. Counsel.
Mr. Ivennedy. You are a member of an auto body repair shop asso-
ciation, are you, Mr. Pope ?
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir ; I am, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You are one of the founders of it, are you ?
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir ; I am.
Mr. Kennedy. And you are also an officer of it ?
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee the circumstances
under which it was founded ?
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. First, give us how many members there are, and what
area.
Mr. Pope. We started out in 1955 with a membership of 38, and
to date I think we have approximately 350 members.
The Chairiman. How many ?
Mr. Pope. 350. These shops are self -manned, mainly, occasionally
with a partner, and in, I should say unusual cases, they have 2 to 4
men to assist. The averatre shop is a two-man shop.
The Chairman. Frequently they are partners ?
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir.
Since the year of 1950, the insurance companies, from which we
derive approximately 80 percent of our work, liave fixed a price be-
tween a dollar figure of $4 to $4.50 an hour. That is labor. During
these years living costs have soared, and with that the increase of
labor costs have gone up. We have abided by that to a point where
today we pay a man an average of $3 to $3.50 an hour, and give him
a week's vacation yearly. He has sick benefits which are based on
his relationship with the shop owner, unlimited. In many, many
cases, if a man is sick 2 or 3 weeks, this man's pay is brought home to
his house and his wife is taken care of as human beings should be.
In short, our industry has been pressed, pressed for cash, to a point
where shops have been going out of business steadily ; not because of
the fact that they didn't have enough work, but because the profit
in the work was not there.
So we banded together in 1956. We obtained a charter from the
State of New York as an association as a whole. We had been
working a year before that, trying to group the members before that.
IMPROPER ACTIVmES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3915
In 1956, 1 think sometime around June, rumors had it through the
Bronx area that there was a drive going on by several locals, a good
many locals, 1 should say, to unionize this industry, regardless of
Senator Mundt. Up until this time, Mr. Pope, had all your em-
ployees been nonunion men?
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir.
Senator Mtjndt. Completely nonimion?
Mr. Pope. This industry hasn't been able to afford unions.
In any case, in June, rumors had it that the industry was being
organized, and the newspapers were blaring about the type of unions
that were doing the organizing. We had had experience throughout
related industries, and calls kept coming in. Men were frantic. They
wanted an emergency meeting, and it was held. At this emergency
meeting, they wanted to know what could be clone about a form of
union that could very well mean the end of our industry in the city
of New York because we could not raise our form of income. We
cannot raise it, for the simple reason that it has been set, and it has
been that way for 12 years. It is a very, very competitive field and
we cannot go anywhere for the additional dollar.
At that particular meeting, it was decided that as far as we were
concerned, the union was out, for the time being. We couldn't afford
it. It was too rich for our blood.
What to do about it, we didn't know. We didn't have any profes-
sional organizers or anybody to give us the assistance we needed.
So we formed a committee, and the committee went out into the
field to ask people that were connected witli labor what could be done
in a case of this kind, not unionwise, but how to stay out of the union.
Senator Mundt. Let me ask you what created all of the excitement ?
Was it just a few stories in the newspapers or had there been actual
attempts to organize you ?
Mr. Pope. Some shops had been accosted. They would not go into
the shop to speak to the men. They would speak to the owners of the
shops.
Senator Mundt. Give me an illustration of what you have in mind.
Mr. Pope. I can't speak of anything concrete myself, but I can tell
you what was reported to me.
Senator Mundt. Give us an illustration of the kind of situation
some of your members reported.
Mr. Pope. It is very simple. If I am paying a man $3 an hour and
I am receiving $4 back, and with this dollar pay my overhead, such
as rents, electricity, taxes, et cetera, I cannot go any further.
Senator Mundt. I understand the problem, but you said that some
of your members had been accosted.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Mundt. Let me get the picture to you, Mr. Pope. Have
you got it now ?
Mr. Pope. Yes.
Senator Mundt. All right, good.
Mr. Pope. I have been called or had been called by several shops
that had been spoken to by organizers. Not one, but several. They
would have 3 cards from 3 different locals, confusing as all could be.
Each and every one had a different proposition, not to the man but to
the owner.
3916 IMPROPER ACTIVITIE'S EST THE LABOR FIELD
In short, it appeared to me and it appeared to everybody else on our
executive committee, that this was something that we just did not
want and could not afford.
I keep repeating that because I have checks to show that on dues of
$15 for 3 months, $5 per month, checks have come back marked in-
sufficient funds. So the industry is in bad shape. They decided to
fight this, but how ?
The second meeting gave us the answer, we thought. Men came
back that had been assigned to this committee with the answer that
we could form our own local, and such we did, if you want to call a
couple of printed cards and an investment of approximately $70
forming a local.
This was done in order to leave cards at the shops so that when a
proposition was offered that this shop owner could say, "I am already
negotiating with 101-A, or 101-B, or 101-C, whatever it may be."
As fate would have it, shortly after we got into all of this, the
Federal Senate committee, this committee here, came into the site
of New York and did its work, did such a good job that we never
had a chance to fully find out whether our efforts at stopping that
union or unions from taking over this industry were successful or
not. That is the story.
Organizing of all shops stopped immediately. It gave us a breather
and it gave us a little time to think. That is where we stand today.
The Chairman. Is this one of your notices that you put out, one of
the signs that you use ? Is that one of the signs that you use for this
independent union ?
Mr. Pope. I have never used that, but they had those printed. They
were never put out. They never had a chance to hit the street.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Pope. They never had a chance to have them put in the shop,
to my knowledge.
The Chairman. What about these cards that you had printed. Was
this one of them ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
The Chairman. What does it say ?
Mr. Pope. That says, "Independent Auto Workers Union Local
101-A," and it gives an address of 363 East 149th Street.
The Chairman. Whose address is that?
Mr. Pope. That was the address of an insurance agent with whom
we were pretty friendly. It was a mailing address.
The Chairman. Then you had some little stickers put out, did
you, "Independent Auto Workers" ?
Mr. Pope. Senator, those stickers were made by the men who were
designated to do that job. I don't have any personal knowledge of
those. I did see them previous to this. They were shown to me.
They were ordered by the association's representative.
The Chairman. The union-shop sign will be made exhibit 28 and
the card will be made exhibit 29.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 28" for ref-
erence and will be found in the appendix on p. 3993.)
Mr. Kennedy. We have some other cards here. The telephone
number is Mott Haven 52433. Is there such a number ?
Mr. Pope. I am not familiar with that number.
EMPROPER ACTIVrriES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3917
Is it on the same card I just looked at ?
The Chairman. I think it is.
Mr. Pope. It is the same card, then it is a telephone number that
is part of the business belonging to this insurance agent.
Mr. Kennedy. You have here the Independent Auto Workers Union
Local 101-A. That is the local that you formed, is it?
Mr. Pope. Mr. Kennedy, that local never took effect.
Mr. Kennedy. No ; but that is the one you printed the cards for.
Mr. Pope. That is a fictitious piece of paperwork that you see there,
that we used in order to forestall the overtaking of an industry that
could not afford
Mr. Kennedy. I understand. It says, "Alfred Naft, Business Rep-
resentative."
Mr. Pope. I don't have any knowledge of Alfred Naft, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he exist?
Mr. Pope. Possibly. I don't know him.
Mr. Kennedy. He was tlie business representative of the Independ-
ent Auto Workers Union, Local 101-A.
Mr. Pope. I have no personal knowledge of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Jack Sicari is here.
Mr. Pope. I do know him.
Mr. Kennedy. AVlio is he ?
Mr. Pope. Jack Sicari was a fellow Avho was a carpenter by trade
who was paid by tlie week to go out and distribute those cards amongst
the body repairmen.
Mr. Kennedy. To make it appear that it was legitimate ?
Mr. Pope. I don't think
Mr. Kennedy. I am just trying to get the picture.
Mr. Pope. The picture is that we would leave those cards and if a
guy came in, he would say, "I have been speaking with this guy,"
and that would forestall any further danger.
Mr. Kennedy. You have as the president of the union, Charles
DiSilvio.
Mr. Pope. He was formerly the vice president of the association and
he was the only nonworking committeeman who was assigned that
job. He resigned as vice presedent and took over the presidency of the
so-called union ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that a promotion ?
INIr. Pope. Well, I think to date they had about $90 in that fund
for printing and such.
Mr. Kennedy. Could we have these made exhibits ?
This one has James Dodge. Do you know who he is ?
Mr. Pope. James Dodge is fictitious.
The Chairman. After exhibit 29-A we will have exhibits 29-B,
C, andD.
Mr. Kennedy. James Dodge on exhibit 29 is fictitious ?
Mr. Pope. Yes. I know he is fictitious.
The Chairman. Those cards may be added as A. B, and C.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 29-A,
29-B, 29-C, and 29-T)'" for reference and will be found in the appen-
dix on p. 3994.)
The Chairman. Did you form a contract ?
Mr. Pope. I didn't have anything to do with the preparing of the
printing. I recommended that they go down to a chap who made a
3918 IMPROPER ACTIVnTElS EST THE LABOR FIELD
lot of that printing, and he made a package deal for them. That
contract that you show may be part of his normal procedure. It may
be a duplicate of some other contract. I don't know.
The Chairman. It says Independent Auto Workers Union, Local
101-A.
Mr. Pope. I believe it is a standard form with the heading of 101
on there.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Pope. I believe that that contract that you have there is a stand-
ard form contract used by the average printer who does printing for
these.
The Chairman. It may be, but in whatever form it is you had it
printed for your union ?
Mr. Pope. That is right ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. This you do identify?
Mr. Pope. I had no personal knowledge of that myself; I didn't
take that out and have it done.
(Documents were handed to the witness.)
The Chairman. Did you ever see the contract?
Mr. Pope. One time. Mr. Bob Dunne showed me this contract.
The Chairman. I will let you look at that and see if that looks like
the one you saw.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Pope. Senator, the only time I saw this contract was when Mr.
Dunne showed me this.
The Chairman. That is all right. I just wondered, for purposes
of the record, if you had seen that before and if you identify it.
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit 30 for reference. It
need not be printed in the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 30" for ref-
erence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Kennedy. After you did this, after you took these steps, you
found that no one came around or you did not have as much trouble?
Mr. Pope. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So it was successful ?
Mr. Pope. I like to believe that the newspapers and the publicity
that this committee got for the work that it was doing was responsible
for that, because I don't believe that these cards would have stopped.
It was an effort we made and a weak effort, but it was actually the
strengtli of the truth that did the job.
The Chairman. It was a successful effort, though weak?
Mr. Pope. With a little bit of help from the Senate committee ; yes,
sir.
Senator IMundt. How long had this operation been functioning be-
fore our committee got into business?
Mr. Pope. I don't believe it was in effect more than about 2 weeks.
I don't tliink the cards were dry yet.
Senator Mundt. It w\as an ingeniuos idea, whoever had it. One
paper union fighting another and you won.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?
If there are no other questions, thank you very much.
Senator Mundt. You had better get that idea copyrighted.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Pope.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3919
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 noon, the hearing in the above-entitled matter
was recessed to reconvene at 2 p. m., of the same day.)
(Members of the select committee present at the taking of the
recess: Senators McClellan and Mundt.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present: Senators McClellan and
Ives.)
The Chairman. Before calling the next witness, the chief counsel
has a brief background statement to make, so as to give us some guid-
ance as we proceed for tlie rest of the afternoon.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, the second witness w411 be Mr. Max
Chester. We had a tape recording of a conversation that he had with
an employer when we started our hearing last week.
The first witness is an employer with whom Max Chester has had
some negotiations.
I would like to give a little bit of background on Max Chester. He
came into the labor union movement, or at least became of interest to
us when he became a member and officer of Local 496 of the Interna-
tional Chemical Workers Union. At that time, that time, the Inter-
national Chemical Workers Union Local 496 was headed by Reiss and
Consentino who later became officers of Local 227 of the UAW.
At that time, Reiss and Consentino became involved in an extortion,
so the International Chemical Workers lifted their charter. Reiss,
Consentino, and Max Chester then all went over to local 227 of the
UAW, one of the locals set up by Johnny Dio in New York City.
There Max Chester once again was accused of taking a bribe. This
upset Mr. Reiss and Mr. Consentino and Mr. Santa Maria, and they
kicked Max Chester out of the local.
So Max Chester then went over to local 405, and he became business
manager, vice president, and secretary-treasurer of local 405 of the
retail clerks.
Local 405, Mr. Chairman, we will show later on, was controlled by
Mr. Tony "Ducks" Corallo, and so Max Chester went from a Dio-
controlled local into a Tony Ducks-controlled local.
As such, in the retail clerks, he was indicted for his activities in
the retail clerks on some 9 or 10 charges of taking money, extortion.
He pleaded guilty to the eighth count. The other counts involved
taking $1,000 from Louis Artists Materials Co., Manhattan ; $700 from
Earnest Slongo Distribution Co., Inc. ; $2,250 from New York Quilt-
ing Novelty Co. ; $2,000 from Gustave, Inc. ; $1,250 from Flerigrip
Co. ; $250 from Shoreham Manufacturing Co., Inc. ; $250 from Wads-
worth 50 and lO^i Stores, Inc. ; $400 from Preco Photo Products, Inc. ;
$250 from Ace Looseleaf Co., Inc. ; $335 from Lansley Fastener, Inc. ;
and $300 from Arnold Originals.
He pleaded guilty to one of those charges, and he was convicted.
But prior to being sentenced. Max Chester was indicted again in con-
nection with receiving a bribe, with Sam Goldstein and Johnny Dio-
guardi. He was just convicted on that count last week, and he is yet
to be sentenced.
3920 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
As I say, lie will be the second witness, but I thought it was impor-
tant to have a little bit of his background prior to our first witness,
an employer coming and testifying as to his connection and his asso-
ciations with Mr. Chester.
The Chairman. Call the witness.
Mr. Kennedy. The employer is Mr. Paul Claude, wdio is president
of Paragon Brass Products, Inc. He is the first witness.
The Chairman. Mr. Claude, will you come around, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Claude. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL CLAUDE, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
KUBIN R. KAUFFMAN
The Chairman. Mr. Claude, state your name, your place of resi-
dence, and your business or occupation, please, sir,
Mr. Claude. My name is Paul Claude. I live in Flushing, N. Y.,
and I have a machine shop in Brooklyn, Greenpoint section.
The Chairman. How long have you been in that business, Mr.
Claude?
Mr. Claude. Eight years.
The Chairman. You have counsel present to represent you?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Counsel, will you please identify yourself for the
record ?
Mr. Kauffman. My name is Rubin R. Kauffman, attorney at law
in the State of New York. My office is at 855 Avenue of the Americas,
New York City, and I have represented Mr. Claude since approxi-
mately 1953.
The Chairman. You may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. What sort of work does your shop do ?
Mr. Claude. I manufacture plumbing supplies.
Mr. Kennedy. How many employees do you have ?
Mr. Claude. At present I have 15.
Mr. Kennedy. Most of them are Puerto Rican, are they, the ma-
jority?
Mr. Claude. About 50 percent.
Mr. Kennedy. And now during 1954, were you approached by Mr.
Max Chester ?
Mr. Claude. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you approached at that time in connection
with the unionizing of your shop ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. AYould you describe to the committee what hap-
pened when you first met Mr. Max Chester ?
Mr. Claude. Mr. Chester came to the door and said he was going to
unionize my shop. He wanted $2,000 to give me a contract that I
can live with.
Mr. Kennedy. Just explain, where were you at the time ?
Mr. Claude. I was working on a machine, and he just walked into
the shop.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3921
Mr. Claude. He said, "I am going to unionize your shop." I asked
each of my men whetlier they knew anything about it, and they knew
nothing about it, my own men.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell us more about the first conversation that you
had with him. He walks in the door, and he says, "I am going to
unionize your shop," and so what did you say? You were surprised?
Mr. Claude. I said, '"I have no objection, if it is proper." I mean
if the union is a decent union, I have no objection whatsoever.
Well, he said, "If you will give me $2,000, 1 will give you a contract
that you can live with."
The Chairman. Those were his words, that he would give you a
contract you could live with ?
Mr. Claude. That is right. I said, "I haven't got $2,000," which
was the truth. So he said, "Well, it is goins: to be difficult."
He took out ]:>encil and paper, and he figured out that with a con-
tract that I couldn't live with. I would probably go out of business.
The Chairman. Did he indicate to you or use those words, he could
probably put you out of business?
Mr. Claude. Yes.
The Chairman. He told you that?
JNIr. Claude. Yes.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, may I raise a question there.
Did you not think it was rather peculiai- tliat he should demand
$2,000 of you ?
Mr. Claude. Extremely peculiar.
Senator Ives. What did you do about it?
Mr. Claude. I got panicky and I didn't know what to do.
Senator Ives. Did you consult with law authorities?
Mr. Claude. I immediately called up the police.
Senator Ives. I did not mean to get ahead of j'ou.
Mr. Kennedy. "V^Hiat did he do to you when you came into the shop?
Just relax and tell the story as you told it before. What did he do to
you Avhen he came into the shop?
Mr. Claude. Well, he was not alone. He had a few men with him.
Mr. Kennedy. Just tell the story easily to us.
Mr. Claude. I am trying to. It isn'teasy, and for you it may be but
]iot for me.
I said, "I haven't got the $2,000." He said, "In that case, I am going
to pull a strike on you." So one at a time he got ahold of my men and
made them sign the cards.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to that time, did he back you against the wall,
or were you standing there, or what?
Mr. Claude. No; there was no physical violence involved.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he go through how much the contract would
cost ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, he figured out with pencil and paper, over a 2-
year period, a contract would cost me $12,000. At that time I had only
eight men.
Mr. Kennedy. So what did you say to that? He said, if you pay
the $2,000 now vou would save vourself
89330 — 57— pt. 10-
3922 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LiABOR FIEIiD
Mr. Clatjde. I could save myself $10,000 and I should be very grate-
ful, he told me, that he is giving me $10,000. I immediately called the
local police.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it the first visit that you called the local police ?
Mr. Claude. Right away, immediately.
The Chairman. Just a moment. Was that after they left ?
Mr. Claude. After they left.
The Chairman. You did not call while they were there?
Mr. Claude. I would say not. I see you appreciate the situation.
The Chairman. I appreciate it.
Mr. Kennedy. Go on.
Mr. Claude. I called the police, and the captain. It was the next
morning. They were there when he came down. And he walked
over to them and they showed him credentials that they belonged to
a legitimate union, local 405, Retail Clerks of America.
Mr. Kennedy. So what did he say to you ?
Mr. Claude. The captain came inside, and maybe I am getting ahead
of myself. The captain came down, after they pulled the strike, and
I didn't mention that, that they pulled the men out. He did pull the
men out.
The Chairman. That day ?
Mr. Claude. Not the very first day. But several days after that he
hung around.
Mr. Kennedy. Let us go back to the original conversation now.
Mr. Claude. I am a little wrong on the sequence.
Mr. Kennedy. He came into your shop and he had two men with
him?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And he said, "I am going to unionize your shop."
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And then he figured out it would cost you $12,000
if he unionized your shop and he would let you off with $2,000 ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. If you gave him $2,000 you would have a contract
you could live with.
Mr. Claude. Yes, if I gave him $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. You said you did not have $2,000.
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you say to him at that time, "I will give you
what I have" ?
Mr. Claude. I told him, "I will give you $100 a week if you will
let me alone, and we will sign a contract and I will pay you off at $100
a week."
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say about that ?
Mr. Claude. He said, "That is out of the question."
Mr. Kennedy. At that time did he say anything about what cute
children he had ?
Mr. Claude. He always inquired about my children's health, con-
stantly. Every second sentence was, "How are your children?" and
"How are your children?"
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ask anything or say anything about what
could happen to children ?
Mr. Claude. Of course.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3923
Mr. Kennedy. Just tell me. I want you to tell the whole conver-
sation. What did he say would happen to children ?
Mr. Claude. The conversation was always about the health of my
children.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat did he say?
Mr. Claude. He spoke mostly about his own, how he loves his own
children.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat would he say about his?
Mr. Claude. How dangerous it is for children to play in the street.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say could happen to children who
played in the street?
Mr. Claude. lie said a number of things, they can be run over, and
things like that.
Mr. Kennedy. Would he ask how your children were ?
Mr. Claude. And he always asked how my children were, and at
the moment I am scared for my children.
Mr. Kennedy. At this moment you are ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. As you testify?
Mr. CiAUDE. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, he would say, "I love my children, but it is
terrible what can happen to them if they play in the streets and they
can get hit by a car."
Mr. Claude. I was subjected to that kind of psychology and it
worked on me, believe me it did.
Mr. Kennedy. And then he would ask the health of your children ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Right after he described what could happen?
Mr. Claude. Pie never told me.
Mr. Kennedy. He just told you these stories about what could
happen to children?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. After he told you about that at that point you said,
well, that you would pay him $100 a week.
Mr. CiiAUDE, He refused to accept that offer.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there anything else that occurred during that
conversation ?
Mr. Claude. At this moment, I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. After they left, you called the police, did you?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And the policeman came down ?
Mr. Claude. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he said to you at that time, "It is a legitimate
labor organization."
Mr. Claude. That is right, and he said, the local captain said, "You
have got to make a deal with them. You have to make some kind of a
deal with them because they are legitimate."
Mr. Kennedy. He said that it is a legitimate labor organization.
The Chairman. In other words, the police that you called down
advised you to make some kind of a deal with them ?
Mr. Claude. Absolutely.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt there with a ques-
tion?
3924 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Claude. They probalil}' referred to a contract with them, the
captain must have referred that 1 should sign a contract, some kind
of a contract with them.
The Chairman. Sign some kind of contract ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. .Vre you going to follow that up witli what he did as
far as the law enforcement authorities are concerned ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. Then, the following day, did he come back again?
Mr. Claude. lie came back for 2 or 3 days with the same demands,
"Well, are you going to pny me?" "Well, are you going to pay me?"
Mr. Kennedy. Were you frightened at that time at all ?
Mr. Claude. I was scared to death.
Mr. Kennj:dy. And you are frightened at this time, also, when you
testify.
Mr. Claude. Of course.
Mr. Kennedy. For wliat reason ?
Mr. Claude. Well, tliere are well known characters around the city
of New York.
Ml'. Kennedy. Who are they ?
Mr. Claude. Max Chester, and I have made inquiry through sev-
eral friends that are unionized to find out who this man is. Word
was passed to me, "Watch yourself." That is all I can tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. So you liad some further conversations with him at
tliat time?
Mr. Claltde. Yes, sir; and it was always with the arm around my
shoulder like this [witness indicating], you know, and "You have got
to pay us off because you are mine." Those were his words, "and I
own you." "No matter where you are going to move, you are mine."
Finally, one morning he saw that I wouldn't pay off and as I had
lunch, and he pulled the men out. Now my men tell me, and I wasn't
])resent, that two uniformed police came into the shop and told the
men to go out.
There I am a little at a loss and I couldn't understand it and I, to
this day, don't miderstand it.
Mr. Kennedy. When you came back fi-om lunch, you found your
men were out ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And picketing?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know the names of the policemen?
Mr. Claude. I don't. I didn't see him, and I wasn't present.
Tlie Chairman. Do you know the name of the first policeman that
told you to make a deal?
Mr. Claude. Well, the local captain, and I think he is still captain
in my precinct.
The Chairman. What is his name ?
Mr. Claitde. I wouldn't recall, sir.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, again, let us go back just a little bit. Prior
to this time, there had been pickets on your shop, even prior to the
time that
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3925
Mr. Claude. Prior to this time there were pickets, but complete
strangers.
Mr. Kennedy. People not associated with yoiir plant at all?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
Mr. Kenne:dt. Now, during this time when you went out to hmch
and when you came back everybody wtus out in the street and during
this period of time had your employees been approached?
Mr. Claude. They had been approached, and they had been made
to sign cards.
Mr. Kennedy. As related to you, how did he go about making them
sign cards?
Mr. Claude. Well, the employees leported to me. They are very
loyal to me because I treated them well and each one came to me
and he said, "This morning I was approached by two men in the
candy store on the way over and they put a card in front of me and
they said 'Sign,' " and they signed.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did they sign. Explain that.
Mr. Claude. Tliey are unskilled labor.
Mr. Kennedy. They were Puerto Rican, were they ?
Mr. Claude. They were Puerto Rican.
Mr. Kennedy. And people who had not been in this countiy very
long?
Mr. Cl^vude. Possibly; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And so what do you think the psychology of it was,
as 3^ou understand your employees, of them signing it?
Mr. Clai'de. How can I say why they signed ? I can only give you
an opinion. They were afraid.
Mr. Kennedy. l^Hiat was your opinion?
Mr. Claude. They were afraid not to sign it. They were afraid
of physical violence.
Mr. Kennedy. And then we come up to the time that you went
out to lunch and you came back and all of your employees were in
the street.
Mr. Claude. Outside.
Mr. Kennedy. And they reported to you that the policeman had
told them to go out there and picket ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Or told them to go out of the shop ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And they were picketing?
Mr. Claude. Yes sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do then ?
Mr. Claude. I closed the shop. I paid the men off and I just went
away. I was closed for 7 weeks.
The Chairman. How many men did you have at that time?
Mr. Claude. Eight men.
The Chairman. Eight employees?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Mr. Claude a
question.
What borough do you live in ?
Mr. Claude. I live in Flushing.
Senator Ives. That is Queens?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
3926 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives. And that is where your business is?
Mr. Claude. No ; my business is in Brooklyn.
Senator Ives. This occurred in Brooklyn, then ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. This is Kings County?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Did you go to the district attorney at Kings County
on this ?
Mr. Claude. No.
Senator Ives. Why not?
Mr. Claude. I really should have but I didn't.
Senator Ives. You certainly should have. With your police in-
volved the way they were, you certainly should have done it.
Mr. Claude. Max Chester told me, "I advise you not to. I advise
you not to go to the district attorney."
Senator Ives. "What reason did he give you ?
Mr. Claude. That's all. You don't have to give no more reason.
Senator Ives. You were not scared of him, were you ?
Mr. Claude. I didn't think that he would write out the reasons.
He won't. It is easy now for me, even, to evaluate this whole thing,
but at that time I wasn't rational, perhaps. I was in a state of mind
that perhaps did not reason properly.
Senator Ives. In other w^ords, you were terrified at the time?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
Senator Ives. Thank you.
Mr. lO.NNEDY. During this period of time, every time you saw Max
Chester, he asked you again how your children's health was, did
he not ?
Mr. Claude. He always does that.
Mr. Kennedy. He Avas very interested?
Mr. Claude. Very much interested in my children's health.
Mr. Kennedy. So you went away, and you closed your shop up,
and you went away for 7 weeks ?
Mr. Claude. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you come back to your shop ? Why did
you open it up again ?
]\Ir. Claude. About 6 weeks after that, I began to get phone calls
from my own men telling me that they have no money to live on,
and they would like to go back to work.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat had they been promised, or what had they
been told ?
Mr. Claude. When they went on strike, they were promised $25 a
week for the duration of the strike. But from what the men reported
to me, they got tlie $25 the first week, and the second week only 1 or 2
men got $25, and after that, nothing. He disappeared and he didn't
come down and they picketed all by themselves, and they were aban-
doned by the union.
Mr. Kennedy'. So you came back and opened up your shop?
Mr. Claude. I opened up, and I called my men, and I said, "Look,
fellows, if you want to open up, this is a free country. We can work
if we want to."
So we opened up, and we started to work.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD 3927
The very next day after the shop was opened, Mr. Chester came
to the door. He said, "What is going on here? What is this?" He
said, "I am going to close you down unless you sign a contract imme-
diately with me."
1 said, "All right; I am ready to sign a contract. But $2,000 is
out."
Well, he said, "I will forfeit the $2,000. I lost money on this deal,
and it cost me $430 to feed these men and give them $25 a week, and
I am losing $430. You give me the $430 that I spent, and I will give
you a contract, and we'll be friends."
I said, "I haven't got $430. After 7 weeks of strike, I am lucky
to have pocket money."
So he said, "Well, you must have a few dollars in the bank," And
I said, "All right ; I can give you half of it right now."
So I gave him $215, and I promised him the balance in the near
future, when I have it.
With this $215 we sat down in the restaurant and we signed the
contract.
Mr. lO^NNEDY. The same day you gave him the initial payment of
$215, you signed a contract; is that right?
IMr. Claude. That is right, and you have a copy of it there.
The Chairman. This is a copy of the contract.
The Chair presents to you what purports to be a photostatic copy of
the contract to which you have referred in your testimony.
Will you examine it and state if you identify it as such.
(A document was handed to the witness:)
Mr. Claude. This is a photostatic copy of the original contract.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 31.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 31" for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
(At this point. Senators Mundt and Curtis entered the hearing
room.)
Mr. Kennedy. This was 405 of the retail clerks ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, as we will bring out later, at that
period of time, and since that period of time, 405 of the retail clerks
has been controlled by Tony Ducks Corallo, and prior to this, of
course, Max Chester as I said originally, had come out of 227, which
was Dio's local.
Now, you signed that contract, and was there any improvement in
conditions, working conditions, wages, or hours for the workers, for
the employees, than what you had for them already ?
Mr. Claude. The contract calls for two 5-cent increases during the
year, but otherwise than that, I always took care of my men previously.
Mr. Kennedy. You would have given them that increase ?
Mr. Claude. I would have given them that anyway.
Mr. Kennedy. So really, there was no improvement for the em-
ployees, by signing this contract ; is that right ?
Mr. Claude. No ; there was nothing there, that they would not have
gotten anyhow.
Mr. Kennedy. So you gave him $215 on September 27, 1954.
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you give him another $215 the following month ?
Mr. Claude. Yes ; you have the checks there.
3928 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kp:nnedy. Just explain to the committee, you promised to give
him $430 when you had the original conversation, and you didn't have
much money with you.
Mr. Claude. No.
Mr. Kennedy. So you wrote out a check for $215 ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you went down and cashed it ?
Mr. Claude. He came with me every time I cashed a check for him.
Mr. Kennedy. This was the first check ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir; and lie always came to the bank with me.
Mr. Kennedy. As the teller handed the money to you
Mr. Claude. He took the money right then and there.
Mr. Kennedy. Even before it got into your hands ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And then he left ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairjnean. The Chair presents to you— — -
Mr. Kennedy. Following that, on October 18^ 1954, you gave him
another $215 ?
Mr. Claude. That is right ; that is to clean up this original agree-
ment.
Mr. Kennedy. You went down and you went through the same
procedure?
Mr. Claude. Yes; he comes, and we write out a check and he comes
with me to the bank and he takes the money that comes over the teller's
window.
Mr. Kennedy. On November 1, 1954, you gave him another $200 ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. In cash?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the reason for that?
Mr. Ci^uDE. Well, he asked for Christmas money.
Mr. Kennedy. On November 1 he came and asked for Christmas
money ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you at that time ?
Mr. Claude. Well, he said, "I have got to take care of the boys. He
has a lot of boys to take care of himself, and it is not all for me, you
know, and I have got to split this several ways."
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say this was the usual procedure?
Mr. Claude. This is the usual procedure around Christmas. You
have to take care of the boys.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you point out to him it was only November 1 ?
Mr. Claude. Well, he said, "It is close to Christmas, close enough
to (yhristmas."
Mr. Kennedy. And you went and cashed another check and gave
it to him?
Mr. (3i^uDE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then aid he come to you in February of 1955 and
ask you to cash a check for him, on February 9, 1955 ?
Mr. Claude. Yes ; he had a check, I think, issued by an attorney of
his.
Mr. Kennedy. The check was made out to Emanuel Kessler ?
IMPROPER ACTIA'ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3929
Mr. Ci^\UDE. You have the check, I think. I don't know who it
Mas made out to. It is a cash check. We have it here, for $220, and
he asked me to cash it.
The Chairman. Just before we proceed with that check, the Chair
presents to you here the 3 checks that you previously testified to
dated September 27, 195-t, October 18, 1954, and November 1, 1954,
in the amounts of $215, $215, and $200, respectively.
I ])resent to you what purports to be those original checks and I ask
you to examine them and identify them, if you will.
(The docmnents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. (^LAiTi)E. Those are the checks.
The Chairman. Are those the checks?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chx^irman. Then those tliree checks may be made exhibits 32A,
B, andC.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits o2A, 32B, and
32C," for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 3995-
3997.)
The Chairman. Now you may proceed with the check you were
discussing when the Chair interrupted vou.
Mr. Kennedy. We have the 3 checks of $215, $215, and $200.
Now, coming to February 9, 1955, did you know Max Chester by any
other name?
Mr. Claude. Yes, he called himself also, Emanuel Kessler.
Mr. Kennedy. And did he come in or did Mr. Chester come in on
February 9, 1955, and want vou to cash a check for $220 for him?
Mr. Claude. That's rightl
Mr. Kennedy. Did you cash that check for him?
Mr. Claude. Yes. This check was made out by Mr. Gilman, who
is a labor consultant in New York.
Mr. Kennedy. And it was made out to cash ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that the check you cashed, the one you hold in
your hand?
Mr. Claude. Yes, a $220 check. I went to the bank and I got cash.
Let me see, did I do that? I just deposited this check, and give him
$220. I don't remember whether I made a check out for $220 and got
money out and deposited this one. Anyway, I gave liim $220 for this
check.
Mr. Kennedy. He either got $220 on that check in cash or by your
check to him ?
Mr. Claude, ^o; by my check he didn't get it. He never would
accept checks.
]\Ir. Kennedy. You gave him cash ?
Mr. Claude. He gets cash. I was wondering how I got the cash at
that time, whether I got it from the bank a single check, or I might
have got it included in the payroll.
Mr. Kennedy. He certainly got the cash ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, xlll right. That check may be made exhibit No. 33.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 33" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 3998.)
Mr. Kennedy. You took this Gilman check, from Gilman Asso-
ciates, who is a labor consultant in New York, and you took this check
down and deposited it in your bank account, did you not ?
3930 IMPROPER ACTIVrTIEIS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat happened ?
Mr. Claude. The check bounced.
Mr. Kennedy. So you were out $220 ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir. I deposited the thing twice.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you decide to do then ?
Mr. Claude. My banker advised me. He said, "Redeposit it, and it
maybe just caught him short one time or another."
Mr. Kennedy. At tliat time, did you go down and speak to your
attorney and decide to report this to the district attorney?
Mr. Claude. Yes, after the second bounce I did.
Mr. Kennedy. After it bounced the second time ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir. We first wrote a letter to Mr. Oilman and
asked him to make good the check.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he tell you ?
Mr. Claude. I don't know.
Mr. Kauffman. Mr. Oilman spoke to me, and I am not testifying.
The Chairman. You did not yourself talk to Mr. Oilman?
Mr. Claude. No, sir.
The Chairman. The witness did not?
Mr. Claude. No.
The Chairman. Did you have your attorney talk to him ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliat did your attorney report to you that he said?
Mr. Claude. That he hasn't got the money.
The Chairman. You were unable to get money out of him by con-
tacting him ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he also relate to you that Max Chester wasn't
supposed to cash this check, and he was supposed to keep the check ?
Mr. Claude. Yes. They put a few words in front of each other,
but I didn't get the money.
Mr. Kennedy. So did you decide to go down and see the district
attorney ?
Mr. Claude. Let me see. That is when we went to the district
attorney.
Mr. Kennedy. And you discussed this $220 check, this Oilman check
and in the course of the conversation you also told them about the
other money that you have been paying to Max Chester ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you came back, and did Max Chester also
known to you as Emanuel Kessler, come to see you again ?
Mr. Claude. Well, he came several times after that.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he discuss with you the Oilman check for $220 ?
Mr. Claude. Yes. He said, "I know that check bounced." He said,
"If you cash a $130 check for me now, which I need very badly, I will
give you four $55 checks predated, and you won't be out any money.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, he came to you and he said, "I know the $220
check bounced, but I want to make that good to you. I will give you
four $55 checks, and we will date them up."
Mr. Claude. "And you cash a check for $130 for me."
Mr. Kennedy. As long as you could cash that check ?
Mr. Claude. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3931
Mr. Kennedy. Did you cash that check ?
Mr. Claude. I cashed the $130. I gave him $130.
Mr. Kennedy. And you deposited the $130 check in your bank
account ?
Mr. Claude. No, he gave me the $130 check, and he gave me four
$55 checks.
Mr. Kennedy. And you gave him $130 ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened to the $130 check ?
Mr. Claude. Well, it bounced. They all bounced.
The Chairman. Just one moment. When you gave him the $130
to cash his check, did you issue a check of your own for cash and get
the money?
Mr. Claude. Well, yes, that is the only way I can get my money.
The Chairman. I understand.
The Chair presents to you a check dated April 1, 1955, made out
to cash in the amount of $130, signed by you and I will ask you if
from the proceeds of that check, you got the cash to cash his $130
check.
Mr. Claude. Yes, that is the check.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit No. 34.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 34" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 3999.)
The Chairman. At the same time he gave you four $55 checks ?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Postdated, is that correct?
Mr. Claude. That is correct.
The Chairman. One was dated April 6, 6 days later, another April
13, and another dated April 20, and another dated April 27.
In other words, he gave you 4 checks, maturing 1 week, 2 weeks,
3 weeks and 4 weeks from that date, each in the amount of $55 ?
Mr. Claude. Yes. He also gave me the $130 check.
The Chairman. I am not sure we have that one.
Mr. Kauffman. There is another check for $130, made by Mr.
Kessler in the folder.
The Chairman. At the time you cashed your check for $130, you
gave him the money for his $130 check, is that correct?
Mr. Claude. That is correct.
The Chairman. I present to you here what purports to be that orig-
inal check which he gave you on April 7 for $130. Will you examine
it and identify it, please?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Claude. It is dated April 7, but he gave it to me April 1.
The Chairman. That is a postdated check, too ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit No. 35.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 35" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 4000.)
The Chairjvian. Now, the Chair presents to you the four $55 checks
about which you have testified. I ask you to examine those checks
and see if you identify them as the original checks which he gave you.
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir ; those are the checks.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibit No. 36-A, B, C, and D.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 36-A,
3932 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
through 36-D'' for reference and will be found in the appendix on
pp. 4001-4004.)
The Chairman. As I understood your testimony up to now, you
have never received that $220 and you did not get the money on those
checks and you did not get the money on the other checks.
Mr. Claude. There is no money coming back, ever. It is a one-
w^ay street.
The Chairmax. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. The total then, of the money that you had given him
through these checks, was $215, $215, $200, $130; the $220 making a
total of $860.
Mr. Claude. That's it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you give him any other mone}^ during this
period of time '(
Mr. Claude. Well, at one time I specifically remember he came
around and asked for $200 and he came around with another man by
the name of Foster. He said they had to have $200 and they will
give it back to me within a week, "I must have it."
So at that time I gave him $200 in cash. I had it in my pocket.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you give him other cash periodically ?
Mr. Claude. Several times he came in, but I have no record of that
at all.
Mr. Kennedy. But periodically, every several weeks, he would come
in and ask you.
Mr. Claude. I estimated a total of $1,400 is what it cost me.
Mr. Kennedy. Altogether about $1,400 ?
Mr, Claude. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. At these weekly visits, or biweekly visits, would he
continuously ask about how your children were ?
Mr. Claltde. That is the first question he would ask, "How is the
family?" and "How is your wife?" and "How are your children?
Here, give me the money."
Mr, Kennedy. After he asked you about your children, he would
ask you for the money ?
Mr. Claude. That is the procedure.
Senator Mundt. Did he ever make any payments back at all?
Mr. Claude. You must be joking. Senator.
Senator Mundt. Xot a penny ?
Mr. Claude. No.
The Chairman. During this time, were your employees paying
dues to the union ?
Mr. Claude, Yes ; 75 cents a week.
The Chairman. Seventy-five cents a week?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is about $3 per month ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
The Chairman. That is what they were paying?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir : the contract calls for it.
The Chairman. Did your employees pay those dues, or did you pay
it for them?
Mr. Claude. The employees paid it.
The Chairman. A'\niom did they pay it to ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3933
Mr. Claude. I took it out of their wages. According to the con-
tract we have a checkoti' and I mailed it in to the local 405.
The Chairman. That money was in addition to $1,400 that you
t^-stified about 'i
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The dues that you collected ?
Mr. Claude. Oh, yes, it was separate checks, new checks.
Mr. Kennedy. On these $55 checks, they were retuinecl to you with
the notification that the account had been closed; is that right?
Mr. Claude. I only deposited three. The fourth one was a waste
of time after the three others bounced on the same bank. I only de-
posited the first, second, and third, and I didn't bother anymore.
Mr. Kennedy. And then the account was nonexistent ; is that right ?
Mr. Claude. There was no account there.
IMr. Kennedy. There was no account on the bank in which the
checks were written ?
Mr. (Claude. It was marked "account closed."
Mr. Kennedy. There was no account at that time?
Mr. Claitde. Not at tliat time; no.
Senator Mundt. What about your experiences with the district at-
torney? You said you went down to see him about this one check
that bounced.
Mr, Claude. Well, if I recall correctly, in addition to that I got a
subpena from the district attorney, a grand jury subpena, from
Assistant District Attorney Burns. I went down to see him and he
subpenaed my books. I went down to see him with the accountant.
He took a look at all of these checks and things and he looked over
the books and he wanted to get the goods on some of these men.
I told him exactly what I have told you here now, word by word
cind no difi'erence.
Senator Mundt. When you went to the district attorney, you went
down there at the request of the district attorney i
Mr. Claude. Yes,
Senator Mundt. I gathered the impression you went down to try
to have him return the money.
Mr, Kauffman, We first went to the district attorney on the basis
of the $220 check. At the private hearing with the district attorney,
all of these facts came out, and subsequently a grand jui'}' subpena was
served and we formally testified before the grand jury.
Senator Mundt. I understand. In the meantime the district at-
torney could do nothing to help collect the money.
Mr. Claude. He had done nothing ; he told me that he had several
cases against these men ahead of me and the time would come and he
would handle it properly.
Senator Mundt. He had other people that he was mistreating the
same way he was mistreating you apparently.
Mr. Claude. I am sorry. I didn't hear you.
Senator Mundt. The district attorney told you there were other
fellows in the same predicament with you i
Mr. Claude. Well, this union organized 60 shops. There nmst have
been others ahead of me.
Mr. Kennedy. In explanation of that, your shop is over in Brook-
lyn ; is that correct?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
3934 IMPROPER ACTIVrTIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And the district attorney you went to visit was in
Manhattan ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
]Mr. Kennedy. And so it was a matter that would be taken up over
in Brooklyn, that is No. 1.
No. 2, this man Max Chester was indicted on maybe 8 or 9 or 10 dif-
ferent counts for extortions from other employers. The district at-
torney in Manhattan, under Frank Hogan, has been interested in Max
Chester for a number of years, as well as almost every other individual
that we have appearing before our committee.
Senator Mundt. He apparently recognized this as part of a pattern
of a shakedown rather than just a private transaction.
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct, and they have been interested and
they have been working on this for a number of years up in the dis-
trict attorney's office.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Claude, I was delayed in getting here, and so
I will be very brief and I hope I do not touch on anythmg that is al-
ready in the record.
Did your employees prefer this union as their bargaining agent?
Mr. Claude. They knew nothing about unions one way or the other.
Senator Curtis. They did not on their part select this particular
union ?
Mr. Claude. Definitely not.
Senator Curtis. Now, the contract does prescribe a union shop, does
it not?
Mr. Claude. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. In other words, they had to remain members of the
union to hold their jobs, did they not ?
Mr. Claude. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. And had they learned of the corruption of these
running the union, they could not have stopped paying dues without
losing their jobs, could they ?
Mr. Claude. That is right.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Mr. Claude, I think I express the sentiments of each member of
the committee, and we are very grateful to you for coming here to
testify frankly and freely, and honestly about these transactions.
Such testimony is helpful and it is quite a contrast to these char-
acters that come in and take the fifth amendment. We are hopeful
that many others will follow your example and help us, the Congress
and those elements and organizations and authorities in the labor
movement that want to clean up this racketeering and these improper
practices in unionism.
However, it may be necessary to have further testimony from you
and I am not going to discharge you from the committee, but order
that you remain under the same subpena, under recognizance to return
and testify upon reasonable notice whenever the committee may desire
further testimony from you.
Mr. Claude. For that I am grateful.
The Chairman. Well, you are under subpena and you remain under
subpena and if anybody undertakes to molest you or interfere with
you in any way or if anyone undertakes to molest you or threaten you
or intimidate you in any way, regarding your testimony here, you or
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3935
any member of your family, I ask that you report it at once to this
committee. We Tvill see what we can do about it.
Mr. Claude. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you very much again, and you may stand
aside.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Max Chester.
The Chairman. Mr. Chester, will you stand and be sworn, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Chester. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF MAX CHESTER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JACOB M. MANDELBAUM
The Chairman. Please state your name and your place of residence
and your business or occupation.
Mr. Chester. My name is Max Chester. As to the rest, I respect-
fully decline to answer on the grounds that to do so may tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair asks you again the question, to request
that you state your present address and your occupation or business.
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer that question on the
ground to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Well, now it might, if I understand the facts cor-
rectly. Your present address, I believe, is in jail, is that right?
Mr. Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I did not intend to elicit that information. I
assumed that you have a residence address somewhere. That is all
the Chair was asking you for.
Mr. Chester. Again, may I say this. Senator, I respectfully decline
to answer this on the ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Well, I believe we will just try it out. I do not
think a man has a right in this country to refuse to give his address.
So, with the permission of the committee, the Chair is going to order
and direct you to give your residential address.
I want your residence, where you live, and not your temporary
abode ; but what you regard as your residence.
Mr. Cin':sTER. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer that on
the ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you have a family ?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer that on
the ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer the two questions, what your resi-
dential address is and also, whether you have a family.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Mundt. The witness is getting advice from somebody, and
T would like to have him identified. Is he an attorney, and would he
give his name and address for the record?
The CiiAiRiNiAN. The Chair would do that in a moment. I have
ahvays proceeded to determine the address of the witness before I
3936 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
recognized counsel. If I cannot get that address, then we will proceed
to other matters.
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I answered that question before.
The Chairman. Well, I have ordered you to answer it and you did
not answer it before. You declined to answer it before, and now
I am ordering and directing you to answer it.
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Will you answer this one: Do you have a lawyer
present to represent you?
Mr. Chester. Yes; I have.
The Chairman. Does that incriminate you ?
All right, Mr. Lawyer, you may identify yourself for the record.
Mr. Mandelbaum. Jacob M. Mandelbaum, attorney at law, 111
Broadway, New York City.
The Chairman. Thank you very much sir.
All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. The records that we have
The CHAffiMAN. I wish to direct counsel, and I wish to say for my
colleagues on the committee, that I would like to have this witness
asked every question pertinent to the preceding testimony and I want
him to either answer or to sit here in public view before this committee
and take the lifth amendment under statements that to truthfully
answer it may tend to incriminate him and I want him asked every-
thing about it.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Fii'st, Mr. Chairman, we have information regarding
Mr. Chester's background prior and during his time in the labor-
union movement.
No. 1, that he has a criminal record beginning in 1937, consisting
of some 9 arrests and 0 convictions.
Is that correct?
Mr. Chester. Sir; I respectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. He was convicted in 1936 for bookmaking, and in
1938 for robbeiy, for which he received a suspended sentence of 5
years, approximately.
In 1948, for attempted petty larceny, for which he was fined $75,
in 1950 for bookmaking, in 195G for extortion. He is awaiting
sentence.
In 1957 for receiving a bribe, together with Johnny Dioguardi and
Sam Goldstein, is that correct?
Mr. CirESTER. Sir; I respectfully decline to ansAver on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. A conviction in 1956 for extortion was for extorting
$2,000 from Alex Wallau, Jr., to keep Wallau's slipper shop non-
union and that was the conversation in connection with that con-
viction, the conversation we heard last week.
The Chairman. Proceed to ask him about each incident and let
us find out if lie answers.
Mr. Kennedy. He was indicted for receiving $1,000 from Louis
Artists Materials Co. in Manhattan, by the district attorney's oiiice,
Mr. Hoiran.
IMPROPER ACnvrriES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3937
He was indicted up there by the grand jury for receiving $1,000
from I^uis Artists Materials Co., is that correct?
Mr. Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. $700 from Earnest Longo Distributing Co., $2,250
from New York Quilting Novelty Co., $2,000 from Gustave, Inc.,
and $1,250 from Flexigrip, and $250 from Shoreham Manufacturing
Co., Inc., $250 from Wadsworth Five & Ten Cent Stores, Inc., and
$400 from Photo Products Co., and $250 from Ace Looseleaf Co., Inc.,
and $335 from Lane Slide Easterner, Inc., and $300 from Arnold
Originals.
Could you make any comment on that ?
Mr. Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the gi'ound
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, our records that we have showed
that he started in the labor movement with local 496 of the Inter-
national (^hemical AVorkers and that that charter was lifted by the
chemical workers because of an extortion on the part of two of its
officials. Is that correct 'i
Mr, Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so many tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. What does the i-ecord show, I will ask counsel,
as to when he entei-ed the labor movement ^
]\[r. Kennedy. The earliest we have is back in the early 1950*8.
That is when he was with 490 of the International Chemical Workers.
The Chairman. Is that when you first entered the labor movement ?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Have all of these offenses been committed since
you entered the labor movement?
Mr, Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on
the gi'ound that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Did you ever do an honest thing to help honest
laboring union people in your life?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The CiiairMzVN. It would be a good time to tell it if you ever did.
If you can name one good thing that you ever did to help unionism,
or help honest working people, now^ is a great opportunity for you,
sir, to state what it is, and wdiat you did.
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. In other words, in incriminates you if you ever
did something good?
Let us have order.
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator
The Chairman. This is pretty serious business.
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that
to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chester, why did you enter the labor-union
field?
S0330 — 57— pt. 10 23
3938 IMPROPER AcrrviTiES m the labor field
Mr. Chester, Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chester, the witness, Paul Claude, testified
that you expressed an interest in his wife and children. What was
your interest in his wife and children ?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Curtis. Do you have a defense to the transactions testified
to by the witness, Mr. Paul Claude ?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I do not believe you have been indicted for those
offenses yet ; have you ?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I
The Chairman. Well, have you ?
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that
to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. According to our records, you have not. So they
are not included in your convictions.
Senator Ives ?
Senator Ives. I would like to carry on this Paul Claude business
a little further.
You were in the room here, were you not, Mr. Chester, when the
testimony of Mr. Claude was given ?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Ives. Do you mean to tell me it is going to incriminate
you to tell us whether or not you were in this room ? That is all I am
asking you.
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, this witness is making a mockery of
this whole business. In my judgment he is in contempt of the whole
Senate, the way he is acting.
The Chairman. Let the Chair make this observation : I do not deny
the right of any witness under the Constitution to take the fifth
amendment if he honestly believes that a truthful answ^er to the ques-
tions asked him might tend to incriminate him.
I think anyone can draw a conclusion as to while innocence is
presumed that innocence in a criminal trial should always prevail
until the charge is proven and the defendant is found guilty.
But this is not a criminal proceeding. This is an investigation to
determine what kind of practices are going on in the labor-management
relations field. We are trying to ascertain those that are improper,
those that are criminal or improper, and that should receive the at-
tention of the Congress in the nature of remedial legislation.
So tlie Avitness is not on trial, but he invokes the fifth amendment.
In most instances, he may have a right to do so under the Constitu-
tion and he may have a right in each instance that he has invoked it.
But I do not concede that because the Constitution gives a man the
right to invoke the fifth amendment that this committee cannot draw
inferences from that character of cooperation the committee seeks in
trying to render a service to this Government and to the people of this
country.
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3939
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask you a question on
that. By what possible process of the imagination can this witness
get the idea that it is going to incriminate him if he tells us whether
or not he w^as in this room when the last witness testified ?
The Chairman. Well, the Chair agrees with you. There is abso-
lutely none. But I would not be sure how the Supreme Court would
interpret it.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I would like to find out. I think
we have a responsibility to put cases like this squarely up to the Court
and let the Court assume the responsibility for any ruling it ^yants ta
make. Obviously, if we are going to have an official investigation,
we have to have some kind of basis of procedure.
The Chairman. Let the Chair make this observation, gentlemen.
Any question that the witness refuses to answer, if we are going to
proceed for contempt before this committee, the question must be per-
tinent to this inquiry. Bear that in mind.
So we ask questions simply as background information often, to put
the witness in the proper perspective, so we may weigh his testimony.
Any number of these questions have been of that nature. And
many of them have been pertinent.
At any time any member of the committee feels that the Chair
should order the witness to answer the question, if they will so advise
the Chair, we will proceed accordingly.
Proceed.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I certainly think my question of the
witness as to whether or not he was in the room when the last witness
testified is pertinent to the inquiry. I think it has a strong bearing on
it, on what 1 was going to ask him.
The Chairman. Ask the question again and the Chair will order and
direct him to answer it.
Senator Ives. I will ask you again. Were you in the room, Mr.
Chester, when the last witness, to wit, Mr. Paul Claude, was testifying
this afternoon ?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Without objection from the members of the com-
mittee, the Chair orders and directs the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that
to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, proceed.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, I have two more questions I would
like to ask the witness.
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. I anticipate the same type of answer, but, neverthe-
less, they are pertinent and I want to ask them.
Mr. Chester, when were you initiated into local 405, Retail Clerks
International Union?
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Repeat the question.
The Chair is going to order and direct you to answer.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chester
3940 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIEIiD
The Chairman. May I ask the committee if it is the will of the com-
mittee that the Chair proceed the order and direct the witness to
answer all pertinent questions that may be propounded to him.
All right, that will be the action taken by the Chair.
Proceed.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chester, when were you initiated into local 405,
Retail Clerks International Union?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair asks you one other question: Do you
honestly believe that if you gave a truthful answer to that question,
that a truthful answer under oath might tend to incriminate you?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair orders and directs you to answer the
last question the Chair asked you.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair now^ orders and directs you to answer
the question of Senator Ives.
Do you wish to repeat it. Senator ?
Senator Ives. Mr. Chester, when were you initiated into Local 405
of the Retail Clerks International Union ?
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to answer that ques-
tion.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed with the next question.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chester, for what period of time have you paid
dues in Local 405, Retail Clerks International Union ?
(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)
ISIr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair orders and directs you to answer that
question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chesitsr. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chester, when were you suspended from Local
405 of the International Union of Retail Clerks?
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to answer tlie ques-
tion.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so mav tend to incriminate me.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3941
Senator Ives. Mr. Chester, were you at any time an officer, organ-
izer, or business agent for Local 405 of the Ketail Clerks Interna-
tional Union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to answer the ques-
tion.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Tlie Chairman. The Chair would like to ask chief counsel a ques-
tion.
I do not recall, but is tliis witness presently a member or an officer
in any union?
Mr. IvENNEDY. At tlie beginning of this year, the first few months
of this year, the International Union of Retail Clerks lifted the char-
ter of tliis and certain other of the retail clerks unions in New York
City.
The Chairman. What position did this witness occupy at that
time?
Mr. Kennedy. He was business manager, vice president, and presi-
dent, all at the same time.
No; he was business manager, vice president, and secretary-treas-
urer.
The Chairman. Of what?
Mr. Kennedy. Of 405, retail clerks.
Tlie Chairman. Up until some time this year when he was ousted
by the international union lifting tlie charter of that local?
INIr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. As I say, that is one of the local unions.
The Chairman. Do 3^011 want to deny that statement? Do you
want to correct any part of it ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the groimd that
to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Then we must assume that you don't want to make
any correction of the statement.
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground tliact to do so ma}^ tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, tliat was at various times that he
was business manager. He didn't hold those offices all at one time.
That 405 is, as I say, a union about w^liich we will have further testi-
mony later. Prior to coming into 405 of the retail clerks, he was in
227 of the UAW-AFL, which is on the chart here. That local was
controlled by Johnny Dio.
I am wondering how you got into that local, under what circum-
stances.
Mr. Chester. Sir, I resijectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Dio about becoming a member of
that union ?
3942 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair will ask you again: Do you honestly
believe that a truthful answer to the question counsel has just asked
you, that a truthful answer thereto under oath might tend to incrimi-
nate you ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Cpiairman. I believe, in some instances, you might have a per-
fect legal right to invoke the fifth amendment without being in con-
tempt of this committee, but I challenge the right of anyone to invoke
the fifth amendment without he can state that he honestly believes that
a truthful answer to the question might tend to incriminate him.
Therefore, I am propounding that question to you. Do you honestly
believe that a truthful answer to those questions under oath might
tend to incriminate you ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that
to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to answer that
question.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that to
do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Tony "Ducks" Corallo ?
Mr. Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, once again this takes on significance
because of the fact that Dio controlled local 227 and "Ducks" con-
trolled local 405, and they combined together their activities during
December of 1955 and January and February of 1956, in efforts to
bring about the election of John O'Rourke as president of the team-
sters in New York City.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chester, have you ever used the name of Mr.
Emanuel Kessler ?
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Mundt. Would you deny that you have ever signed your-
self as Emanuel Kessler ?
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the witness
examine the handwriting at the bottom of that contract and tell us
whether or not that is his handwriting.
There is the signature of Emanuel Kessler there, with some notations
in pen and ink.
The Chairman. Would you recognize your own handwriting ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to mcriminate me.
The Chairman. I want to show you what purports to be your hand-
writing on this contract that has been made exhibit 31 to the testi-
IMPROPER ACTIVrnES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3943
mony in these hearings, and I ask you to examine it, look at it, and state
whether that is your handwriting and whether this is your signature
on that contract.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. It does not embarrass you for me to show it to you;
does it ?
JVI^r. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. We have some testimony here that you were very
anxious to find out what the health was of Mr. Claude's children.
Is that true ?
Mr. Chester. Senator, sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. I^nnedy. Have you always been interested in children ?
Mr. Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. He said that during the same period of time that
you would ask about his children, you would tell what could happen
to little children, about cars coming along and hitting them in the
street. Then you would bring up the question of getting some money
from him, some cash from him.
Was there any connection between your love of little children and
your desire to have cash ?
Mr. Chester. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer on the ground
that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. Take those checks, Mrs. Watt, please, and lay
them in front of this witness. Let us take the first three which have
been made an exhibit. What is the number of the exhibit you are
now presenting?
Mrs. Watt. No. 32.
The Chairman. I present to you a series of three checks, exhibit
No. 32. What is the amount of each one? The first 2 are $215 and
the third one that you are looking at is in the amount of $200.
(Documents were handed to the witness.)
The Chairman. According to the testimony of the preceding wit-
ness, Mr. Paul Claude, he states that he went to the bank and cashed
these checks, that you went with him, and that he gave you the money
for each one of them, that it was money that you demanded in con-
nection with unionizing his shop.
Is that the truth, or is it a lie ?
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Did you get the money from those checks ?
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Did it incriminate you when you got the money?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Show him those hot checks that bounced.
3944 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Give me the number of the exhibit.
Mrs. Watt. The four, Senator?
The Chairman. Yes ; the 4 hot checks, $55 each.
Mrs. Watt. 36A, B, C, and D.
The Chairman. I now present to you four checks that have been
made exhibit 36A, B, C, and D. I will ask you whose signature is on
those checks.
(Documents were handed to the witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. What is your name?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Chester. My name is Max Chester.
The Chairman. Look at those checks and see whose name signed
them. Can you read?
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that to
do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Read the name of the signer of those checks. What
is the name ?
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that
to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to read the names
on those four checks.
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that
to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You may do that. The name Max Chester is there ;
is it not ?
Mr. Chester. I respectfully decline to answer on the ground that
to do so may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Take the exhibits away.
Proceed with the questioning.
Mr. Kennedy. I am finished with this man.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions from any member
of the committee?
The Chair orders and directs that you remain under the same sub-
pena that you appeared under here today. Your further testimony
may be needed by this committee. In the meantime, you are ordered
to return, upon reasonable notice. Do you accept that recognizance
and agree to reappear and further testify before the committee upon
reasonable notice?
Mr. Mandelbaum. May I state to you, Mr. Chairman, that this wit-
ness is here under control, pursuant to direction of Judge Muller.
Upon his return to New York, he is required to present himself to the
city prison within 24 hours after liis engagement here terminates.
Tlie Chairman. All right. This order holds whenever he regains
his freedom, even out on bond. Of course, if he is in jail, if he is in
the penitentiary, he couldn't comply, and, therefore, he would not be
in contempt of the committee, as you and I will agree as lawyers.
Mr. Mandelbaum. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. You may stand aside.
The committee will take a 5-minute recess.
(Thereupon, a brief recess was taken.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3945
(Select committee members present at the taking of the recess were :
Senators McCleHan, Ives, Mmidt, and Curtis.)
(Members present at the convening of the session after the recess:
Senators McClelLan and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Tlie committee will come to order.
Judge Harold Krieger, come forward, please.
Will you be sworn, please 'i
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Krieger. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD KRIEGER
The Chairman. Tlie Chair wishes to announce that Judge Krieger
is actually being called out of order in order to accommodate him. He
has a legal matter somewhere else tomorrow.
We are doing this. Judge, to accommodate you.
Would you please give your name, your place of residence, and
business or occupation ?
Mr. Krieger. Harold Krieger, residence 833 Fairmont Avenue,
Jersey City, N. J., and I am an attorney of that State. I am a lawyer.
The Chairman. I called you judge. I seemed to have the impres-
sion that you have served as a judge at some time.
Mr, Krieger. Yes, that is true, sir.
The Chairman. We will continue to recognize that fact.
Mr. Krieger. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. Of course, being an attorney, you waive the right
of counsel, I assume ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you also work for one of tlie city governments
in New Jersey, did you ?
Mr. Krieger. I did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you work?
Mr. Krieger. I was an assistant corporation counsel of the city.
Mr. Kennedy. What city?
Mr. Krieger. Jersey City.
Mr. Kennedy. Jersey City?
Mr. Krieger. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. When did vou have that position ?
Mr. Krieger. 1949 to 1955.
Mr. Kennedy. And you are a judge now or were a judge?
Mr. Krieger. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You are a judge now?
Mr. Krieger. Well, I still have a term to run.
Mr. Kennedy. What kind of a judge?
Mr. Krieger. Municipal court.
]\Ir. Kennedy. Judge Krieger, you laiow Mr. Johnny Dioguardi ?
INIr. Krieger. I know him like I know a lot of other people. He
was an international representative for the UAW. He was regional
director for that organization when I met him.
Mr. Kennedy. What were the circumstances under which you met
him«
3946 IMPROPER ACTIVITIHS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Krieger. I can't recall. It may have been some affair or some-
place, I saw him around, and he was identified as being regional di-
rector for the UAW. That goes back a number of years ago, or
some time ago anyway.
Mr. Kennedy. You had some connection with the granting of the
charter to local 355 of the UAW?
Mr. Krieger. Well, I don't think I had a connection with the
granting of it; 355 had applied for a charter and it was granted to
them. They had organized a group of workers, some two-hundred-
odd workers, I think it was, and they applied for a charter, and they
secured a charter,
Mr. Kennedy. That is not the complete story, is it, Mr. Krieger,
as far as you know ?
Mr. Krieger. What do you mean that is not the complete story?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, I am asking you for your knowledge about
it. Is that the end of it?
Mr. Krieger. My knowledge is the fact that two of the individuals
who were organizing certain workers in a shop had succeeded in
organizing a couple of hundred workers, and they had come in, and
said they wanted to apply for a charter.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did they come in to ?
Mr. Krieger. They came in to see me.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did they come in to see you, Harold Krieger,
over in Jersey City ?
Mr. Krieger. Because I represented several organizations, and they
knew of me, I assume.
Mr. Kennedy. How would they know of you? How would two
people who wanted to get a charter from the UAW-AFL come to
Jersey City to see Harold Krieger ?
Mr. Krieger. I can't answer as to why they would come to me. I
can say that they did come to me.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you not surprised when they walked in the
door?
Mr. Krieger. You are not surprised when anyone comes in to talk
to you about a matter. I think one of them was an organizer for some
other union before he organized these workers.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you not think the proper procedure for them
would have been to write a letter to the international or go see Johnny
Dioguardi ? Why would they come over to Jersey City to see Harold
Krieger to get a charter?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know of any particular reason, other than
one of the individuals, I think, was an organizer for some other union.
He may have known of me. I don't recall knowing him, but he may
have known me. He came in to see whether or not I would assist
him in drafting his papers. Also, at that particular time, he was
in the midst of organizing a shop. As I indicated to you, he wanted
to apply for a certification for the employees, and file
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat shop was it?
Mr. Krieger. This goes back about 3 years ago, 4 years ago. Some
Roto shop ?
Mr. Kennedy. Roto-Broil?
Mr. Krieger. Roto-Broil shop.
Senator Curtis. In what State was that shop ?
Mr. Krieger. That was in New York.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3947
Senator Cuims, Are you licensed to practice in New York?
Mr, Krieger. I am admitted in the eastern district and admitted in
the southern district of New York, both of those districts.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand at that same time there were
two unions in Koto-Broil that were trying to get certification?
Mr. Krieger. During the hearing
Mr. Kennedy. Wait a minute. You are moving ahead.
Did you understand when they came over to see you ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know if I knew at that time or if they knew
at that time that there was any union in there at that moment.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you ever done any work for Roto-Broil?
Mr. Krieger. No, I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Zwillman from New Jersey?
Mr. Krieger. Well, I know a lot of people, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. I am asking if you know him.
Mr. Krieger. I have met him, too.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have an interest in Roto-Broil ?
Mr. Krieger. Not that I know of. I have no knowledge of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you think it possible that he might have?
Mr. Krieger. I have no knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ever speak to you about it ?
Mr. Krieger. He never spoke to me about it, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He never spoke to you ?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ever speak to you about the granting of this
charter ?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir ; he never spoke to me about it at all.
Mr. Kennedy. These two individuals came over to see you. Can
you give us their names ?
Mr. Krieger. One was Tolkow, and if my recollection serves me
right, the other individual's name was Mas, M-a-s-s, I think.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Benny Mas ?
Mr. Krieger. Benny was the first name.
Mr. Kennedy. He was a Puerto Rican friend of Tolkow?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know if he was a Puerto Rican or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know anything about Tolkow's background ?
Mr. Krieger. I said I understood he was an organizer for some
other union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand he had been in the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir, I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go into that at all ?
Mr. Krieger. He never mentioned that at all, and I never had the
occasion to ask him, because if my recollection serves me right, he
filed — I can't say that he did file an affidavit. I don't know. I as-
sumed he filed a non-Communist affidavit.
Mr. Kennedy. With whom ?
Mr. Krieger. With the Government. I assume so.
Mr. Kennedy. When he came over to see you, did you then go to
Mr. Johnny Dioguardi about the charter?
Mr. Krieger. To my recollection, a letter was sent to the office
requesting an application.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you vouch for these two individuals ?
3948 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Krieger. Well, I don't think it was a question of voiichino;. I
didn't vouch for anyone. I sent in the information that they had
given me to send in, together with a list of names, and I think there
were some twenty or some odd names of people that they had organized,
and the application was made for them.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you take an interest in it after that ?
Mr. Krieger. I represented them for a very short time after that,
and then I had disassociated myself completely.
]\Ir. Kennedy. Were you paid a fee by them ?
Mr. Krieger. Well, frankly, I don't think they ever paid me. They
owed me some money or they were in bad financial circumstances and
hadn't paid any fees up to then nor since then.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you not have any idea as to why they came over
to see you in Jersey City ?
Mr. Krieger. Not offhand, no. A lot of people come in for you to
represent that you have not met before and may have been recom-
mended to you.
The Chairman. VHao recommended these people to you or vou to
them?
Mr. Krieger. I don't recall oft'hand if there was a recommendation,
because I don't recall them mentioning anybody sending them in or
reconmiending them specifically. You see, this goes back, Senator,
about 4 years ago.
The Chairman. I understand.
Did you do this legal work for them ?
Mr. Krieger. I represented them in this National Labor Relations
Board hearing proceeding.
The Chairman. And you got no fee ?
Mr. Krieger. They were to pay a fee, and they claimed that they
were financially embarrassed, and that the organizers had not received
any salaries, or were not receiving any salaries, and if I would bear
with them, and I said I would.
Tlie Chairman. I do not challenge your statement, but I do say it
is most unusual a lawyer representing strangers without a fee.
Mr. Krieger. Senator, that happens sometimes, and, frankly, that
is wlw I didn't continue to represent them, because I wasn't getting
paid any moneys, and they were taking up some time.
Mr. Kennedy. Could he identify this document J
The Chairman. The Chair presents to you a labor organization reg-
istration form under Public Law lOl- 80th Congress, regarding Amal-
gamated Local 355. It is dated December 28, 1953. I will ask you
to examine this document, this photostatic copy of the original, and
also examine attached to it a photostatic copy of a letter dated De-
cember 23, 1953, addressed to the Bureau of Labor Standards. The
letter purports to be signed by you.
Would you examine the two ? Examine the form first and the letter
second, and state whether you identify them.
]\Ir. Krieger. Well, it is a letter on my stationery, but I don't think
that this is my signature on it. It may have been someone in the office
who would sign the letter, one of my staff who signed the letter. It
is forwarding a registration form to the Department of Labor.
The Chairman. Do you recognize the form? Was that document
prepared in your office by you ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3949
Mr. Krieger. I assume tliat it was, Senator; I assume that it was.
I have no present recollection, but I assume that it was. It is a photo-
static copy of a letter on my stationery, though the signature, as I indi-
cated before, was not mine.
The Chairmax. I believe you would know that. Is it your signa-
ture ?
Mr. Krieger. No ; it is not, sir. Definitely, I don't recognize it as
being mine. I can show you my signature and this.
Tliere would seem to be a dilfereuce, unless it has changed to that
extent.
Tlie Chairman. The form may be made exhibit No. 37 and the letter
will be made exhibit Xo. 37-A.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits 37 and 37-A"
for reference and will be fomid in the appendix on pp. 40()r)-4007.)
The Chairman. I Avill ask you to look at the form and see what
address, permanent address, you gave to that local that that form
applies to.
Mr. Krieger. Senator, the addi-ess is indicated as my address of
my office. Might I say this: That it is not unusual when a new local
starts, and they haven't got any office facilities, that you permit them
to use, for the purpose of mailing, your addi-ess, so that the communi-
cations can be addressed to you.
The Chairman. I thought maybe that Avould recall a little more
the transaction.
Mr. Krie<u-:r. Xo. As I s;nd Itefore, I doiTt doubt the fact that this
was prepared in the office, and I don't d( ubt the fact that it was signed
in my office, and the fact that one of my statl' wrote my name upon it,
upon sending the form out.
The (^iiAiRMAN. Proceed.
Mr. Kenn?:dy. What did you do when they came over there? Did
3^ou get in touch with Johnny Dio at that time?
Mv. Krieger. My recollection was that there was a reference made
to send this to the regional office and he was in charge of the regional
office, and that a request was made for an application and the applica-
tion was completed and returned.
Now, whether it \\"as returned to the regional oflice or to the principal
office, I cannot recall.
The Chairman. Had it gone to the regional office, it would have
gone to Dio?
Mr. Krieger. I assume so, because he was the regional director.
Mr. Kennedy. How did 3^011 know he was regional director?
Mr. Krieger. It was common knowledge. It was common knowl-
edge.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Dio during this period of time a client of yours?
Ml'. Krieger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you doing any work for him?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did .you afterward do any work for him?
Mr. Krieger. I don't recall ever representing him, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you represent any of his other unions ?
Mr. Krieger. I recall representing another local union, I think, in
some labor relations board hearings.
Mr. Kennedy. That was local 224 that you represented ?
3950 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Krieger. I think it was local 224. The fact is I don't think I
handled the matter personally. I think one of my associates in the
office handled the matter.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Dio refer them to you ?
Mr. Krieger. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you happen to come to represent them?
Mr. Krieger. My recollection was that there was a council at the
time, and they were part of the council, local 224, and I assume that
they may have known that I was handling this case with this Koto-
Broil before the board, and they came in and asked if I would handle
that matter, which I did. By the way, they paid the fee.
Mr. Kennedy. Thej^ did pay. Did you get a fee for that?
Mr. Krieger. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any connection with 355 after that,
after going through the sending of their application into Johnny Dio?
Mr. Krieger. As I said, I handled the matter before the National
Labor Relations Board for them.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know where the money to start their union
came from ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't follow you, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When they started their union, local 355, they de-
posited some money in the bank. Do you know where that money
came from ?
Mr. Krieger. No ; I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You haven't any idea of that ?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Tolkow have some money at that time,
enough money to start the union ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know. If he did, he didn't mention it to me.
Mr. Kennedy. You had no connection with it after that?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir; they had then went out of the organization
or something. I don't know what happened.
Mr. Kennedy. You have no explanation as to why they came over
to see you?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know offliand if they were recommended or
came in on their own volition or someone mentioned it. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You got in touch with Dio to get them a charter or
did you get in touch with the international ?
Mr. Krieger. I said my recollection was that we wrote a letter to
either the regional office or the main office, and I don't recall which
it was, in which we requested a charter. We sent in the applications
that they had, that these boys had from these employees
Mr. Kennedy. And you didn't know anything about their back-
ground, yet you did all of this work for them ?
Mr. Krieger. I didn't know anything about their background, no,
but frankly they appeared to be very honest and sincere in their
efforts, and conscientious in what they were doing.
The fact is, if I recall correctly, Mr. Washburn, who was the inter-
national president, gave them a special letter telling them how pleased
he was in the work they were doing, and that he had found that they
weren't connected with this Mr. Dioguardi.
Mr. Kennedy. But originally, when they came in, you didn't know
where they came from, you knew nothing about them, according to
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3951
your testimony, and yet you went and obtained a charter for them
from Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. Krieger. When you say I obtained, I didn't obtain it. It was
granted to them.
Mr. Kennedy. Through your efforts.
Mr. Krieger. I don't think it was through my efforts. They had
organized the people. They organized some 200 people.
Mr. Ivennedy. If that was true, they could go to Johnny Dio them-
selves.
Mr. Krieger. No doubt they could have. Without a question of
doubt they could have done that. But they merely wanted some assist-
ance. They also had the situation where they were going to file for
certification for these employees who they had organized.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know any of the officials from Roto-Broil ?
Mr. Krieger. No, excepting an individual that I met during the
hearings.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know Irving Jacobsen ?
Mr. Krieger. I Avouldn't know the name, sir. I met a man during
the hearings. He appeared as one of the owners or the owner of
Roto-Broil. In fact, I saw him here for the first time since the day
of the hearing 4 years ago.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Albert Klinghoffer ?
Mr. Krieger. The name doesn't mean a thing to me, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know him ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know him. I may know the individual if I
saw him. He may have appeared at the hearing, if that is an indi-
vidual with the company. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever discuss the contract with Roto-Broil ?
Mr. Krieger. Never discussed the contract, never negotiated the
contract, never had anything to do with it. I understand there was
another attorney that represented that local 355 after that.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat was your position when Tolkow and Mas came
over to see you ? Were you just a private attorney ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you working for the city at that time ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir ; I was.
The Chairman. Did you receive a letter in — when was the appli-
cation made'^
Mr. Kennedy. December 31, 1953, is when the charter was issued.
The Chairman. December 31, 1953 ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you, then, within 3 or 4 months thereafter,
receive notice that that charter was cancelled ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes. There was a letter sent by Mr. Washburn, as I
indicated before, and he had made an investigation. After he had
made an investigation, he reinstated the charter immediately. In
fact, a definite representation was made that these boys of 355 were
not a part of any other organization, and he had investigated and
found that Mr. Dioguardi was not in control of that local union. He
so stated in a letter, after his own personal investigation.
Frankly, Senator
The Chairman. So stated to you ?
Mr. Krieger. So stated in a letter.
The Chairman. To whom ?
3952 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kriecjer. To the local.
The CiiAiRMAx. Did you receive a copy of that letter ?
Mr. Krieger. I received a copy, I don't think from Mr. Washburn.
I think I got it from the local union. That is my best recollection.
The Chairman. I see Mr. Washburn apparently wrote you, and if
there is anything wiong with this you can correct it, personally on
April 22, 195-1:, in which he said :
Enclosed is copy of the letter addressed to .Joliimy Dioguardi which is self-
explanatory —
and he asks you if you are still connected in any way with Local 355,
UAW-AFL.
You are herewith requested to return to nie immediately the charter, supplies,
and any other documents with respect to said Local S.jS, UAW-AFL.
Did you reply to that letter ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir ; I am quite certain I did.
The Chairman. You received it and you replied to it ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. At that time, did you have anv connection with
355?
Mr. Krieger. At that time, they had come in — I received the letter
directly, I think that is my recollection, I received the letter. I think
that they may have also received a letter.
A reply was sent to Mr. Washburn stating that there was no con-
nection in any res]>ect as far as control over 355, that there was an
independent local union as far as any relationship with Mr. Dioguardi
was concerned, excepting Mr. Dioguardi was the T AW I'epresentatiA'e
at the time.
Mr. Washburn came into New York, if my recollection serves me
right, and he made an investigation. After his investigation, he wrote
a letter in which he reinstated tlie charter. I think that was one of
the only charters that was reinstated at the time.
The Chairman. If Dioguardi was the regional director, then he
would have some connection with it ; would he not ?
Mr. Krieger. Well, I assume that he would have connection only
insofar as he was in charge of the area for the international. As far
as the internal aft'airs of a local union, I assume that an international
has a right to send in a representative to watch the progress of a local
union, and to detei'mine what progress it has made. I assume in that
respect he would have that ty])e of a connection.
The Chairman. I would assume, and the record here probably dis-
closes, that at tliat time, April 22, 1054, Dioguardi was the regional
director, and that is why you sent a letter to him.
Mr. Krieger. I think he was.
Prior to that time, I think he had been removed by Mr. Washburn^
if my recollection serves me right.
Mr. Kennedy. I think, if I may say so, it is a little confused. In
the first place, Mr. Washburn did not reinstate the charter of local
355. That charter was reinstated by the action of the international
executive board.
Mr. Krie(;er. Well, when I say Mr. Washburn, I assume that he had
recommended to the international executive board because, ]\Ir. Ken-
nedy, I think, if you will check, you will find that Mr. Washburn
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3953
personally wrote a letter in which he reinstated the charter as presi-
dent. That is my recollection.
]\Ir. Kennedy. He lifted the charter. The board overrnled him and
he resigned. The board was the one that overruled him and reinstated
the charter. I think you are mixed up on the letters, too.
Mr. Krieger. Mr. Kennedy, I think you will find that 35.5 was the
only local that was reinstated by him.
]\Ir. Kennedy. Mr. "Washburn did write a letter. He wrote a letter
on May 6, 1954, and he wrote a letter about a union in which he said
rmion affairs were in good condition. But that letter was in connec-
tion with local 224, which you represented, not local o55.
Mr. Krieger. 355, too, I am quite certain, Mr. Kennedy, you will
find that he personally reinstated it after the investigation. That is
my best recollection.
Ml'. Kennedy. Your recollection is not in accordance with the docu-
ments.
Mr. Krieger. Well, I will check.
The Chairman. You may check it.
According to our records here, and I think I can state to you this
was taken from the files of the union, the internatioiuxl union; is that
correct ?
Mr. Dunne. That is correct.
The Chairman. A copy of a letter we obtained from there, dated
May 6, refers only to local 224.
Mr. Kennedy. Here is the action from a document.
The Chairman. Has this been introduced in evidence ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is from the international.
The Chairman. This is not evidence in the file yet. It has not
been placed in the record, but I can say to you, just for your guidance,
that these are from the files of the international union.
Mr. Krieger. Well, Senator, I don't know whether this will help
or not, but I find a letter that is not dated, but it is addressed to Amal-
gamated Local No. 355, UAW-AFL. "Dear Sir and Brothers.'-
Mr. Kennedy. What is the address?
Mr. Krieger. It says "Copy" across it. Whether I received this
from Tolkow, that he made a copy of what he received, I don't recall.
It says :
Upon investigation I have found tliat local 3r)5 has had no connection with
Johnny Dioguardi or his organization. My investigation also shovFS that the lo-
cal union and its leaders are doing a commendable job of organizing legitimate la-
bor organization.
In view of the above, I am hereby reinstating the charter of Local ;^.")5, UAW-
AFL, and sincerely hope that the present campaigns will be successful, and
l)Iease be assured that your endeavors has the complete support of the interna-
tional union.
Fraternally yours,
Lester Washburn,
Interna t iona I P res id en t .
The Chairman. What date is that ?
Mr. Krie(;er. As I said before, it doesn't appear to have a date on
it, sir.
The Chairman. If you had it, they must have the original.
Mr. Krieger. I assume that the international union has the orig-
inal.
The Chairman. To whom is it addressed?
S!t:{3U— 57— i)t. 10 24
3954 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Krieger. It is addressed to the local union.
The Chairman. And it did not give your office address?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
The Chairman. In fact, it gives no address?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir. I think at that time that they had their own
offices, that they opened up offices and had offices of their own al-
ready.
Senator Curtis. Where did you get that copy ?
Mr. Krieger. Pardon?
Senator Curtis. Where did you get that copy ?
Mr. Krieger. I said I assumed it was sent in by the local union to
my office for my files.
Senator Curtis. Does it appear to be a carbon copy?
Mr. Krieger. It appears to be a carbon copy, sir. No ; I can't say.
It may be typed off originally.
Senator Curtis. Has it been folded?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Was it received in the mail ?
Mr, Krieger. I assume so. That is the only thing I can say. I
don't know whether it was received in the mail or not, but it has been
folded the way a letter would be folded. It has the creasing across
it-
Senator Curtis. How long have you had it?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know. It is part of the file. I assume I have
had it since the time it was sent in, which may have been 2 or 3 years.
Three years, I guess it must have been.
Senator Curtis. You don't know how long you must have had
it?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. This really adds to the mystery a little bit; is that
correct, that John Dioguardi had nothing to do with this local union ?
Mr. Krieger. Well, that is what he says in his letter.
Mr. Kennedy. If Johnny Dioguardi had nothing to do with the
local union, then it is completely your local union.
Mr. Krieger. No ; it is not.
Mr. Kennedy. How could that be ? If he was not responsible for
it, you are the one that they approached.
Mr. Krieger. I assume the connection intended there was control
over the local union. I assume that is the reason some of these char-
ters were taken, because of the question of control. I assume that
Mr. Washburn had taken the position that some of these unions, from
what his correspondence was, were probably considered Mr. Dio-
guardi's, or he may have been head of them or part of them, and
that this local union was not, in that it had autonomy in that respect.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you meet Johnny Dio ?
Mr. Krieger. As I said before, I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wlio introduced you to him ?
Mr. Krieger. That I couldn't possibly recall. He was at affairs,
and I don't recall which affair it was. He was an international repre-
sentative. He was in charge of the East or something.
Mr. Kennedy. Like what affairs was he at ?
Mr. Krieger. Probably labor affairs, dances, conventions, or some-
thing. I can't recall where it would be.
(At this point Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
IMPROPER ACnVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3955
Senator Curtis. When did you first meet him ?
Mr. Krieger. I can't fix a date. I wouldn't know. I would say
Senator Curtis. Can you fix the year ?
Mr. Krieger. In the 1950's, sometime.
Senator Curtis. Early 1950's ?
Mr. Krieger. Probably early 1952, 1953.
Senator Curtis. 1952 or 1953 ?
Mr. Krieger. I would say around there.
Senator Curtis. When was this union organized ?
Mr. Krieger. This organization was sometime in the latter part of
1953 or the early part of 1954.
Senator Curtis. So you had met him a year or two before that ?
Mr. Krieger. No. If I met him in 1953, it wouldn't be a year or
two. It would be in that same year.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever meet him in New Jersey ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't recall ever meeting him in New Jersey.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever meet him in New York ?
Mr. Krieger. I may have.
Senator Curtis. Well, did you?
Mr. Krieger. I can't recall. As I said, there are affairs held in
New Jersey, there are affairs held in New York, and there are affairs
held at various other places that you may attend.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever meet him socially ?
Mr. Krieger. Not that I can recall, excepting at these types of
affairs, if j^ou want to call them social affairs. But if you mean
whether or not I personally, I can't recall any.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever have a conversation with him ?
Mr. Krieger. Conversations? Speaking to him, do you mean?
Yes ; I spoke to him.
Senator Ci:rtis. xVnd did you have conversations on several oc-
casions Avith him?
Mr. Krieger. I probably did. I would say I may have spoken to
him several times.
Senator Curtis. And these conversations would be at various places ?
Mr. Krieger. At various places.
Senator Curtis. Extending over some time before this union was
formed ?
Mr. Krieger. That I can't say. I don't know how long. I mean,
how many conversations I may have had with him before this local
union was chartered. I can't say, sir.
Senator Curtis. You recognized him when you saw him ?
Mr. Krieger. I would recognize him, surely.
Senator Curtis. And he would recognize you?
Mr. Krieger. That I can't answer. I assume so.
Senator Curtis. How would he address you ?
Mr. Krieger. I can't recall how he would address me, whether he
would call me mister or what he would call me, or by my first name.
I don''t recall.
Senator Curtis. You produced this letter out of your files. It said
that Mr. Washburn found that Johnny Dioguardi didn't control this
union, and, therefore, he was returning the charter, or reinstating the
charter.
Mr. Krieger. Reinstating it, I think it was. Senator.
3956 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Why would a connection with Johnny Dioguardi
invalidate a labor union charter ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know, personally, excepting if I recall cor-
rectly at that particular time Mr. Washburn had removed Mr. Dio-
guardi as tlie international representative, I believe.
Senator Curtis. The mere fact that he had been removed, was
that it? Do you say the fact that he had been removed from his
position was t'hi' only disqualifying thing that you know of?
Mr. Krieger. Well, I wouldn't know, because it would be some-
thing that the international would do. What their reasons may have
been, I wouldn't know, sir.
Senator Curtis. You knew of no reason that would disqr.alify him ^
Mr. Krieger. I personally would know of no reason which would
qualify him or disqualify him.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever do business with or for Dioguardi?
Mr. Krieger. I don't ever recall representing him in any manner,
sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever do any business with him, whether
you represented him or adverse interests, either one ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't ever recall representing him or not represent-
ing him.
Senator Curtis. I didn't ask you that. Did you ever transact any
busine^ Avith him.
Mr. Krieger. "V"\nien you say business, do you mean by representing'
him. Senator?
Senator CuRiis. No. You don't have to represent someone to
transact business with him. Did you ever transact business with
him?
Mr. Krieger. No, I had no business dealings with him.
Senator Curtis. Or professionally?
Mr. Krieger. Nor professionally.
Senator Curtis. That is all for the moment.
Mr. Kennedy. I want to point out by this letter that the English
isn't very good in it.
Mr. Krieger. I noticed that.
Mr. Kennedy. In all the other lettei-s he writes, they make reason-
able sense. For instance,
My investigation also shows that the locnl nniou aiul its leaders is doins: a
commendahle jol).
The third paragraph:
In view of the above. I am herel>.v reinstatin.ir the charter of local 355 L'AW-
APL, and sincerely hope that the present campaigns will l)e sxioeessfiil, and
please be assured that your endeavors has the complete support.
Mr. Krieger. I noticed that, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Mr. Washburn ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You talked to him about 355 ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. After he lifted the charters?
Mr. Krieger. xVfter he lifted the charters.
Mr. Kennedy. So you remained interested in this local ?
Mr. Krieger. Well, he reinstated. They had cases pending before
the National Labor Relations Board, and I had completed those
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3957
'Cases or had gone as far as I think T could at the time, and I think
they were withdraAvn, petitions were withdrawn. Several petitions
were filed by several unions involved, and all petitions were with-
drawn. I think that is what eventually happened.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You Were doing all of this for nothing ?
Mr. Krieger, I did considerable work, but I was not paid. Am I
liappy about not being paid ? No.
Mr. Kennedy. You did speak to Lester Washburn about getting
this charter?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you represented this union later on ?
Mr. Krieger. For a short period of time, sir, a very short i>eriod of
time.
Mr. Kennedy. And you never knew anything about Mas or Tol-
kow's backgrounds ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't recall knowing anything about them before
that, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you think it is a little mystifying, j^our actions,
as far as local 355 ?
Mr. Krieger. No, because clients will come in, people will come in.
Mr. Kennedy. I understand, but all of the things you did
Mr. Krieger. I didn't do so many. I only represented them in two
matters.
Mr. Kennedy. Have there been any other situations like this where
you represented
Mr. Krieger. I couldn't recall. I couldn't recall representing some-
body like this.
Mr. Kennedy. These people come over fi-om New York, and you
say Johnny Dioguardi is well known as regional director, and these
two individuals come into your office in Jersey City and say, "We
want to get a charter." Then you get in touch with Johnny Dio-
guardi and reconnnend that these people get a charter. They get a
■charter. You continue to be interested in them. Their charter is
lifted. You go to the president of the International UAAY, ask for
the charter to be reinstated, and you continue to represent them after
that all for zero ?
Mr. Krieger. I didn't anticipate representing them for zero, I
anticipated getting paid.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a contract ?
Mr. Krieger. No.
Mr. Kennedy. How much were you going to get paid ?
Mr. Krieger. I intended getting a reasonable fee for the services
performed. But they claimed they didn't have the funds to pay.
The Chairman. Did you ever send them a bill ?
Mr. Krieger. No, I did not. I think we left on the note that I
wasn't going to handle any more work for them, and I left it that way.
The Chairman. They fust thanked you for the work ?
Mr. Krieger. They didn't even thank me.
The Chairman. You didn't get a thanks ?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
Senator Ctjrtis. What labor unions do you now represent ?
Mr. Krieger. I represent a few, sir. Not many.
■Senator Curtis, "\\niat are they ? Name them.
3958 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Krieger. I don't know whether that is fair, to ask me the local
unions I represent.
The Chairman. There is nothing to be ashamed of.
Mr. Krieger. It is nothing that I am ashamed of, sir. I am not
ashamed. But I don't know whether it is fair to them. That is
what I am thinking of.
The Chairman. Well, the investigating subcommittee has had that
matter up 2 or 3 times and we have always held that an attorney
could be required to state who his clients are and the amount of fee
that is paid. You cannot be required to give any confidential infor-
mation that you receive from your client,
Mr. Krieger. You can readily appreciate, sir, that it would
affect
The Chairman. How many do you represent?
Mr. Krieger. Not many. I would say 5 or 6 offhand, vei-y few. In
fact, I have declined most of them.
The Chairman. Does the committee want the names of them?
You do not want to give them in public ?
Mr. Krieger. I prefer not.
The Chairman. You would give them confidentially?
]\fr. Krieger. Yes, I would.
Senator Curtis. Would you add to the list the identity of all unions
you have heretofore represented that are not included in that list?
Mr. Krieger. I will try to do that, too.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Anthony Doria?
Mr. Krieger. I don't know him personally. I don't recall. I may
have met him at some affair, but I don't know him personally.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Jimmv Hoffa ?
Mr. Krieger. I have met him, but that is as far as the relationship
would ffo. I have never represented him.
Mr. Kennedy. You never have represented him ?
Mr. Krit.ger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You met him on a number of different occasions?
Mr. Krieger. At affairs I would see him, because he is quite a
poDular individual at labor affairs.
Mr. Kennedy. Did vou meet him and Dio at the same time?
Mr. Krieger. I can't recall m.eeting them together. I can't say.
They might have both been at the same affair. I can't say they were
not both present, but whether or not they were together I wouldn't
know.
INfr. Kennedy. You have seen them at the same affairs?
IVIr. Krieger. I think there have been affairs where they were
both at.
Mr. Kennedy. '\Yliat kind of affairs were these?
Mr. Krieger. Labor affairs.
Mr. Kennedy. Like what ?
IVIr. Krieger. Dances and conventions.
Mr. Kennedy. You saw Dio, Hoffa and yourself at a dance, you
were all at a dance?
Mr. Krieger. I wasn't together in that type of a formal fashion.
I say it may have been sort of a social affair that a labor organization
runs.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Zwillman there ?
IMPROPER ACnvrriES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3959
Mr. Krteger. Mr. Kennedy, I don't recall seeing Mr. Zwillman at
any affair.
Mr. Kennedy. "What about Paul Dorfman? Do you know Paul
Dor f man ?
Mr. Krieger. I think I met him at some affair or another.
Mr. Kennedy. Was this the same kind of affair?
Mr. Krieger. Tliere are many affairs and many conventions that
are held, and these people attend them.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you see all of these people at the same affairs?
Mr. Krieger. At the same time? No, I can't say that.
Senator Curtis. Do you attend a number of labor affairs?
Mr. Krieger. I did at one time, sir. I attended a number of them.
Senator Curtis. Are you presently on the bench ?
Mr. Krieger. Well, I am not presently serving, sir.
Senator Curtis. You are not serving?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. When were you serving?
Mr. Krieger. Up until June 20.
Senator Curtis. Is that an elective office?
Mr. Krieger. No, it is an appointive office.
Senator Curtis. Who appointed you?
Mr. Krieger. The commission, the city commission.
Senator Curtis. It is not appointed by the mayor?
Mr. Krieger. The mayor and city commission together.
Senator Curtis. The mayor and the city commission ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Tlie mayor is the one that usually prevails?
Mr. Krieger. I don't think so, sir. I think this appointment comes
under the department of public safety.
Senator Curtis. Who was the mayor at the time you were
appointed ?
Mr. Krieger. I think Mayor Berry was the mayor at the time.
Senator Curtis. How much of your time do you now devote to
handling matters connected with labor law ?
Mr. Krieger. Very little time; very little time. Very small time
by comparison.
Senator Curtis. By comparison to your other practice?
Mr. Krieger. To my other practice, yes.
Senator Curtis. Has it always been that way?
Mr. Krieger. No, at one time I think I did more labor work than
I do today.
Senator Curits. And at one time you were the honored guest at a
banquet given by labor leaders, were you not ?
Mr. Krieger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How long ago was that ?
Mr. Krieger. In 1949.
Senator Curtis. Did you resign from the bench?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Why did you leave the bench ?
Mr. Krieger. Well, you see, the new commission came in and they
wanted to reduce the number of courts for economy's sake. They
have reduced them from 4 to 2.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you represented Paul Dorfman ?
3960 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. KkieCxER. No, sir.
Mr. Kennp:dy. How about Allan Dorfman?
Mr. Kkieger. I don't even know him, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know him ?
Mr. Krieger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you represent Louie Saperstein ?
Mr. Krieger. I don't recall representing him personally.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know him ?
Mr. Krieger. I know him.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't represent him ?
Mr. Krieger. I think we once in the office drew a contract for the
purchase of some property which he didn't consummate.
Mr. Kennedy. "\^'lien was the last time you saw Dio?
Mr. Krieger. I don't even recall. It is a long time ago. Years,
I guess.
Mr. Kennedy. Last year ?
Mr. Krieger. No. Longer than that. Several years, I would say.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. You may be excused.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Krieger. Thank you.
(Members of the select committee present at this point were Sena-
tors McClellan, Goldwater, and Curtis.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Seglin, Stanley Seglin.
The Chairman. Be sworn, please.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Seglin. I do.
TESTIMONY OF STANLEY SEGLIN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
LEON REICH
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, please.
Mr. Seglin. My name is Stanley Seglin. I live at 8889 16th Avenue,
Brooklyn, N. Y.
The Chairman. Do you have a paper you want to read ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Seglin. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds that it
may tend to incriminate me.
The CHAiR]\rAN. Do you mean you are respectfully declining to
answer whether you have a ])aper with you that you want to read on
the grounds that it might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Senator, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair is going to ask you your business or
occupation again.
Will you tell us your business or occupation ?
Mr. Seglin. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds that
it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you have a lawyer representing you?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3961
The Chaikman. Will you ans^Ye^ that ?
Mr. Seglin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you. If 3"ou had not answered that, you
M'ould not liave had a lawyer. I will tell you that pretty quickly.
Proceed. Counsel, will you identify yourself ?
Mr. Reich. Leon Reich, 141 Broadway, New York 6, N. Y.
The Chairman. You gave your client good advice wdien you told
him to answer that he had a lawyer.
Mr. Reich. That remains to be seen.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, our interest in Mr. Seglin is that he
is financial secretary-treasurer of local 224 of the UAW, which was
one of the UAW locals set up by Johnny Dio. He then became a
charter member of local 269 of the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters, which you see on the riglit-liand side as one of the paper
locals, so we will want to ask him about that.
He is a trustee of local 862 of the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters, which is the bottom teamster local on the right-hand side,
another one of the paper locals, and is tlie one that was controlled
out of 649 by Abe Brier, a lieutenant of Johnny Dio's.
He is presently secretary-treasurer of local 224 which is an inde-
pended union.
We will start off witli Mr. Seglin by his entry into the labor union
movement as far as Jolmny Dioguardi is concerned, with local 224
of the UAW, Mr. Chairman. We have liere the application for
affiliation of local 224.
The Chairman. Mr. Seglin, I liave before me what purj-iorts to be
a photostatic copy of the original charter api)lication, an official ap-
plication for charter and affiliation for amalgamated charter for local
224.
The charter was granted on September 15, 1953, it appears, and
sent to Johnny Dio, New York City. There appears on this charter
your name, the fourth from the top, Frank Easton, Leonard Prince,
Ben Nandel, Stanley Seglin. It contains a number of others as being
among those requesting the charter.
I will ask you to examine this document and see if you recognize
it as a copy of tiie aj^plication wliicli you joined with others in filing
for the charter of local 224.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
The CiiAiRJtAN. Have you examined the document?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair will state for the recoi-d the document is
right in front of you. You took it and looked at it. Do you want to
look at this further before you are questioned further?
Mr. SE(iLiN. Mr. Chairman, I respectfullv decline to answer on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Would it incriminate you to look at a piece of paper
and examine it ? That is all I am asking you to do as of the moment.
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you refuse to look at that document and exam-
ine it under orders of the Chair?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
3962 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I will look at the paper, but I cannot
answer any questions in reference to it because it would tend to incrim-
inate me.
The Chairman. If you do not recognize it, I do not imagine it
would tend to incriminate you, do you ?
Mr. Seglin. Again, Mr. Chairman, I reiterate, I respectfully de-
cline to answer on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel, with some other questions.
Mr. Kennedy. This charter was granted, as you can see from the
charter application, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Tliat document will be made exhibit No. 38, the
one that I offered to the witness and which he said he looked at. He
declined to answer questions about it.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 38" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 4008.)
Mr. Kennedy. As you noted, Mr. Chairman, this was to be sent to
Johnny Dio in New York City. This local was established on Sep-
tember 15, 1953, and was established by Mr. Seglin and Mr. Easton.
Mr. Seglin had originally been in the car-wash business, prior to
joining the union, as I understand it.
Is that correct, Mr Seglin ?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Counsel, I respecftully decline to answer on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. You were with the S. and L. Auto Laundry. You
were with the S. and F. Auto Laundry, Inc., in 1950, and S. and L. in
1951 and 1952; a partnership in Preston Auto Laundry, Inc., in 1950;
and the Jet Minute Auto Laundry during this period of time, also.
As I understand it, shortly after you got into tlie union, local 224,
you went immediately to try to organize all of these auto laundry
shops ; is that correct ?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Counselor, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. I understand that it was for a feeling for the em-
ployees of the shop that you felt they should belong to a union.
I was wondering while you were in management, why you did not
attempt to get them into a union at that time instead of waiting until
you got control of a local union yourself.
For what reason did you wait ?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Counselor, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. We had, Mr. Chairman, a Mr. Garren on Friday,
who was from some wash shops in the Queens, and he said that the
contract that was assigned with local 224, one of the provisions that
was in the contract was for a 57-hour week, and the employee was to
be piad $40 for a 57-hour week.
I was wondering if you felt that that was completely fair, Mr.
Seglin, and helpful to the employees.
Mr. Reich. Mr. Chairman, may I interpose an objection to that
question, if I may, on the ground that that situation, as 1 understand
it, is purely one of intrastate commerce, and would thereby be outside
the scope of the purposes for which this committee was created.
The Chairman. We have no way of knowing that unless your wit-
ness will testify. I would not take 3'our word for it.
IMPROPER ACnVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3963
Mr. Reich, I believe that was indicated by the testimony of Mr.
Oarren, which has been alluded to.
The Chairman. We may want to find out if he was mistaken.
Was it intrastate or interstate ?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I see. Thank you.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now to come back to my question. Did you feel
that signing a contract for a 57-hour week, and to give the employees
$40 and a week's vacation after they worked there a year, did you
think that that was a completely proper contract for the employees?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Kennedy, sir, I respectfully decline to answer on
the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair may observe also that whether it is inter-
state or intrastate would have no bearing, because unions are organized
for intrastate and also interstate, and those unions that get the services
of the National Labor Relations Board have to comply with certain
provisions of the law. This union, as I understand it, did file those
reports.
So there is no question but what the committee has jurisdiction over
any union that so applies for the services of the National Labor Rela-
tions Board, complies with the Federal law for that purpose.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. In connection with this case, and also in connection
with various other of the employers with whom we have consulted and
interviewed, we find that most of your contracts are top-down con-
tracts, that you don't go to the employee, but go right to the employer
and make the contract with him. Is that the procedure that you
follow, Mr. Seglin?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Kennedy, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you ever consult with the employees themselves
to find out if they are interested in joining the union ?
Mr. Seglin. I reiterate, Counsel, I respectfully decline to answer on
the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. We found, Mr. Chairman, also, something that was
of interest to us, that Mr. Seglin became a charter member in local 269
of the teamsters, and that this charter was granted to local 269 just
prior to the election in New York City for the presidency of the joint
council.
That is 269 of the teamsters.
(At this point. Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room.)
The Chairman. The Chair hands you another application for a
charter of local 269 of the teamsters in which you appear to be one
of the applicants. Your name appears on line 3 of this charter, which
is a photostatic copy of it, dated November 8, 1955. I will ask you
to examine that document and see if you identify it.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I am ordering you to examine the document.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
3964 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I have examined the document.
The Chairman. All right. Now, do you refuse to testify about it?
Mr. Seglin. I decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend
to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. You are refusing to testify about the document on
the grounds that it might tend to incriminate you ; am I correct?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Seglin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I occasionally get an answer.
That document may be made exhibit No. 39.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 39," for reference
and will be found in the appendix on p. 4009.)
Mr. Kennedy. Can you tell the committee how you became an
an applicant for the charter in local 269 of the teamsters?
Mr. Seglin. Counselor, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you speak to Mr. Johnny Dioguardi prior to
this time about becoming a charter applicant for the teamsters union
charter ?
Mr. Seglin. I repeat my answer. I respectfully decline to answer
on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I would like to ask counsel one question.
I will ask the witness first. Are you now an officer in any labor
union, local, or other organization, or other labor group?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, I now ask you the question whether
we have information and knowledge that this witness is presently an
officer in a labor union.
Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Chairman, for a while he was a trustee for 362 of
the teamsters, and now he has gone back as financial secretary of local
224, which foi'n;c>rly was local 224 of the UAW and is now local 224,
independent.
At the present time, it is our understanding that he is financial
secretary of local 224, independent, operating in New York City.
The Chairman. Is it under the AFL-CIO ?
Mr. Kennedy, No. It is an independent union. Its charter was
lifted.
The Chairman. Lifted by the AFL ?
Mr. Kennedy, Lifted after pressure by the AFL-CIO upon the
international union, the UAW international.
The Chairman. All right.
I would like to make this observation. Some people wonder why
we waste time here on these witnesses that take the fifth amendment.
We are hoping that as a result of these hearings legislation can be
enacted that will help labor unions themselves, help the members,
the people who work, the people who are being imposed upon,
the people v/ho are being robbed by people of that character who
take the fifth amendment wlien they are questioned about their trus-
teeship in connection with Unions.
If the Congress can meet its responsibility in passing legislation,
and the members of tliese unions, where there is virtual slavery by
the reason of this character of representation in official responsibil-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3965
ity at the head of the union, maybe we can go a long way toward
restoring integrity in these places where the poor working people
now, the honest working people, are being imposed upon. I hope
we can do that.
It may take a lot of questioning of people like you to let them see
the need for some action on tlieir part, too, as well as some need
for action on the part of the Congress.
Proceed, Senator Curtis.
Senator Cuktis. Mr. Witness, the matter of self-incrimination is
embedded in our law. You have a right, of course, to avail yourself
of it when Ave inquire into any transaction that you feel would in-
criminate you. We have a broad field in which to legislate, includ-
ing the qualifications of people who engage in collective bargaining
and other labor practices.
I want to ask you a few questions that do not call for revealing
any transaction that you may have had with other labor leaders or
with business or with union members.
Where do you now live ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Se(;lix. 8889 IGth Avenue, Brooklyn.
Senator C'urtis. How long have you lived there ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. SixJLiN. Ten years, sir.
Senator Curtis. When were you born ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Seglin. 1922.
Senator Curtis. Where?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Seglin. Brooklyn, N. Y.
Senator Curtis. What schools did you attend? How far did you
attend in schools ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Seglin. High school.
Senator Curtis. You completed high school. What was your first
job after leaving school?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Seglin. Witli due respect, sir, I respectfully decline to an-
swer on the grounds that this might tend to incriminate me.
Senator Curtis. AVhy did you choose to go into the labor-union
field as a matter of Avork ?
Mr. Seglin. Senator Curtis, I respectfully decline to answer on
the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have just one other matter to
take up. We stated that he was an applicant for the charter of local
209 which was granted by the teamsters, which local was intended to
vote in the election for the presidency of the joint council of New York
City.
He was also listed as a trustee for local 302 of the teamsters. We
have some documents there which indicate that.
The Chairman. The Chair hands you a document entitled "Ware-
liouse and Processing Employees Union Local 862," a photostatic copy
of a document, a letter, and it is addressed to joint council 16, Decem-
3966 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ber 1, 1955, from Abraham Brier, secretary-treasurer of the union,
certifying that you are eligible as trustee to vote, and to serve as a
delegate m joint council 16.
Will you examine that, please, and state whether you recognize the
document ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I have examined the document. I re-
spectfully decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend to in-
criminate me.
The Chairman. That document may be made exhibit No. 40.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 40" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on p. 4010.)
The Chairman. I will ask you whether you attended that joint
council meeting and if you did vote.
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I must decline to answer on the grounds
that it might tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. If people believed that, with as many of you com-
ing here and taking the fifth amendment, they would get the im-
pression that one could not belong to a labor union without incrimi-
nating himself; do you not think so?
Mr. Seglin. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. I hand you another document, which is a letter
from the same man, Mr, Brier, Abraham Brier, secretary-treasurer,
joint council 16, dated February 2, 1956, in which it says —
This certifies that the bearer, Stanley Seglin, is an executive board member of
local 362 and is entitled to a vote in the joint council.
I will ask you to examine that and see if you identify it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I have examined the document, as re-
quested, and I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit No. 40-A.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 40-A" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on p. 4011.)
The Chairman. Were you seated as a delegate ?
Mr. Seglin. I must decline to answer that question, sir, on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I think all the people share the belief that I have —
that most unions are unions of integrity ; that most of them certainly
have officials who are men of honor. But it would be a great calamity
in this country if all unions had officials that could not give an account-
ing of their stewardship, who have to feel that it is necessary to invoke
the fifth amendment on the grounds that it might incriminate them
when you interrogate them about union affairs.
It is a very sad thing. Of course, I do not suppose you feel that you
have any conscience or obligations at all to the laboring man. Do you ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 3967
Mr. Seglin". Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer that on
the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. You would not want to account to the people that
you have had the honor — and it may be a dubious honor in this situa-
tion— of representing, those that placed their trust in you or those
whom you have a responsibility to.
You do not feel under any obligation to report to them or make
statements to this committee with respect to how you have discharged
your responsibility and duty to them ?
You do not feel any obligation to do that ?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully decline to answer on the
grounds that it will tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. If we show you voted in the election of the joint
council 16, the one in which Mr. Lacey and Mr. O'Rourke were candi-
dates for the presidency of it, would you then be willing to admit that
you did, and would you want to comment on it ?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I must respectfully decline to answer
on tlie grounds that that may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. In other words, you would take the fifth amend-
ment on the obvious ; is that correct ?
Mr. Seglin. Mr. Chairman, I must decline to answer your question
on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, going through the ballots, we find
that Mr. Seglin was one of those who had the credentials to vote. An
examination of the votes that Avere impounded at this period of time
showed that Mr. Seglin's vote was cast for Mr. John O'Rourke.
I might say in connection with that, that these locals, the 1 that Mr.
Seglin was an applicant on its charter and the 1 that he voted in con-
nection with, these locals, the charters were originally requested by Mr.
Hoffa in connection with the voting that was to take place in New
York City between Mr. Lacy and Mr. O'Rourke and Mr. Seglin's name
appears.
He voted beautifully for Mr. O'Rourke.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. Seglin. I must respectfully decline to answer that question on
the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Dioguardi ?
Mr. Seglin. I reiterate, I respectfully decline to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know your attorney, who is representing
you?
Mr. Seglin. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that
it might tend to incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions?
You will remain under the same subpena. Your testimony may be
desired further. You are under recognizance to appear before the
committee at such time as it may give you reasonable notice to do so.
Do you recognize that, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. Reich. Yes, I do, Senator.
The Chairman. And do you?
3968 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Seglin. I do, sir.
The Chairman. And you agree to it?
Mr. Seglin. I do, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Yon may stand aside.
The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:47 p. m., the hearing in the above-entitled mat-
ter was recessed, to reconvene at 10 a. m., on the following day.)
(Members of the select committee present at the taking of the recess :
Senators McClellan and Curtis.)
Appendix
Exhibit No. 1
Official Appflcafion
CHARTER OF AFFILiATION
I ndcr ihf Jurisdiction f>r Inieraatioaai 5 nicsi
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3969
3970 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR ITEliD
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IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3971
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3972 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
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!
ft
W
^j^.., 'ti
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3973
Exhibit No. 5
\ll,\\l\Tr,i| I NIDN LPf^^' '"''
.M h R i ' ■ A N f E D E R A '1 ! C v
November 1'' 1-<51.
ony -■ olzazie
■Lie
Vto-« Hcw^ll
!-. r.itt b V J 1 1 no re
L»rr«ii»e M«<»e9
HvH. iarnell
Juila Hose
Harry Va thews
kr.*).o'.iy iantore
-tcrriially yours,
3974 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
EXHIHIT No. 6
Labor Organization Registration Form
Public Law 101— 80th Congress
To: Bureau of Labor Standards,
United States Department of Labor, Wasliington 25, D. C.
Section y (0 aiii] (g) of the I>abor Managtnient lielations Act, 1947 (Public Law -No. l"
1st St'ss.), requires that tht foiiowiug information be tileil Willi the Secretary of Labor anti
annually, before the National Labor Rtiatiorw Board is authorized on petition or charge of :
lion to take certain action in reprcs aitair labor practice cases or in requcsti! ;
union shop. This rtport must be ! any labor orKanization de?"''iig to raise a:
before the Boar.!. Ijut a'.,'- bv ari, ■ Matinnal lalwr ar^aiiiiation of which sue;,
tion is an aliih. .' : < '
CHECK U.M. ]
I. Full nanit of orga
2. Principal business addrct-
3. Name and addres.r
!. (a) List t
during
wise sciircted.
. ^mpensation and allow ances of your three (3) principal off!ccr.<! who ser^'ed
year. Indicate the manner in which tiiey are elected or appointed or other- .
(ft) List the names, titles, and c
tion and allowances for the p.
officers or agents are elected or api
1 ances of all otiur officers or agents w l-.yse Cunipen-sa-
'-«>d«i $"i,000. Indicate the manner in which such
6. The regular dues r
*tla «*M of • Mtldbol «r ;nUTnz<
Nt/Tt^-If adijitiorial «f<acc i
■d to pay to join union is $
tin in good staiui;:iif are J
r»r«r.lln. Into, Jm)
ruApunding numt»er
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
3975
■ 1/ this registration' form
n amended in any way.
V. a show the procedure followed
each of the ittras specified, a
/,.»;, ..ii with respect to the items tiot
esponding iten»s nambfrs.
(f) A-
(A) Author,
(0 Author-
;tl \t'ar (12 mos.)
made dtninf
(b)
liid
(t\ ri,„,_.
(1) iVr capi'i ':(v :ii"i ''«''»"<-ii''ii'"'>
(2) Salaries
(3) Fines
(3) Allowances ....
(1) Assrssn'.ont.s
' Taxes (Federal and State)
(6) Other (sp.c.f.. ..
Other (specify) . ... . l.
W Total
TOTAI „^.,.
<6)
(-}
f. Ji 'Inly authonz'-ii ofhcial of the above-named unioji. n-rtify th,
true to U-.e best of my know ledge and belief.
If l»If graphic service i» r«iute!«i In connwlion nith thl« Blinn il miwt b« si your «p«nM.
3976
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR MELD
Exhibit No. 7
Official Application
For
CHARTER OF AFFILIATION
Under the Jurisdiction of International Union
United Automobile Workers of America
AlfiKiUtd with tH« Amerieatt Ptdtratum of Labcr
o3
lOfl
TO THE GENERAL EXECinnVT-: BOARD. INTERNATIONAL
UNION. UNTTED AirTOMOBIU: WORKERS OF AW.RICA —
GREETINGS:
We herewith niakf forma! aiipliettion for a ! '
tional Union, United Automoljile Workers of An;,
laws of the Intfrnntional Union.
lor of Afniialion in iho Intoma-
'^'i n!;m^l<''r<^! iin<i<'r the H(li>ptt»d
/?,f- J
Address of Ilr,f(i.|ii;ute!-^
We reques' :
li^t of fighti>en tis> n!ern!»<jN Ix
1'KIVT PLAINLY
frxhr
L'lili
SEAL
Kratemally ..iibimUed,
■"21 C<
President
{■'SA:
Itecordins; Secretary,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
3977
Exhibit No. 10
CO
oO
k
'.f
a.
^■
<
fa
ts
i^
</>
'l
3^
■v) ■
:/-1
s
?S »»AY ip TMt Oftont o» oat
Chemcal Corn Exc^SnS Ba^
AtnaJoamaled Union locai 649
UAW,A.F.ofL
3978
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR MELD
EXHIBIT No. 12
©
HMd eg
yJ <
lift ^
PCX,
-a;
en
-5 J
> c
/.
♦
C il c '*
I'; M —
;; •/.
IMPROPER ACTIVrriES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3979
Exhibit No. 13
^•
APPLICATION FOR CHARTER
IV TBI!
international ?Brott)crt)Oob of Ccamsterg, Cfiauffeurs,
13)are})ousfmen anti l^elpers of Smerica
HE.\0QI ASTERS
in«l Indiiii.a Ave, N, W. WichirmK.i) !. D. €.
J(»HN r. 1:.N(,I,1SH. General Sffretriry-Trca-surcr
Cit'.
uniiersiirnwi VVaire-WorkiTs.
hin and |)ri)mot«> our ii)(lu>'^
rh<ir>d of Teamsters. Chu
itive.« .-"f :
•lie of Orjfanization
■ Ik- well calculated to improve our
ii'l aihaiu'emenl, respectfully pttitioi
• n anil Helpers of America to grant ;i
d ; rocessln
.ij include typ« o( cr»n and workeis to br <■
■ i!-.ti'r!.aii'.;!iii isroriii-rnno,i . :
rved right to preserve the auti (
.•ul:itio!is as may l)e made, or ar.
iiieiit
.'tarv-Treasurer_
n--, \^ ;;rerinii^er':.'!i and Help. ;
•tient of our own organization, >
1 our orifanization a,s above nan.'
Addres.s
Address
.\diiress_
^ K»t» or ArrucANTs
ADOBBSaCH
kins
pPI-tAse TVPE OB PBIST t.tOIBtV NAMES UP APPl.lCA.VTSl
I ><- addttional ihreu whpn necenury. Send luune* ot ^1 charter mrmben with tbia applleatloa.
3980 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 14
WAREHOUSE AND rROCESSINO EMRLOYKCS UNION
LOCAL 258
»0 PAKK AV«H!U« MOUNT VBRNOM N ▼ MOUMT VIKWOM 4 >•!•
0»e«at>«r 1, 19SS
Joiat CMieii >16
Mirtit T. Ue«7. Pr*ftd«*t
2b5 H»st l«th Str««t
Htw York. New York
Dear Sir f. Brother:
TIM foiiowlag are tke aaaet an<1 titles of the officeri of
Local Union *256, and laae are reqeested to be teated at dele-
gates to Joint Coaacil *I6.
Saa 'jetlaa Presideat
Ktchard Castoa Vice-Pret ideat
Harry UaTidoff '^eey.-Tredf .
Sannjt Beglltrl record lug -Secy .
Aatbeay Barbera Truatee
Uavtd Koch Trustee
Ckarlei Kapelowiti Traatee
Fraterna 1 ly.
Harry lJe»ldoff,
Secy. -Treat.
MD:
IMPROPER ACTIVrriES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 18
3981
Labor Organization Registration Form
Public Law 101 80th Congress
To: Bureau of Labor Standards,
United State Department of Labor, Washington 25, D. C.
3982 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 19
3983
Labor Organization Registration Form
Public Law 101— 80th Congress
To: Etircau of Labor Standards,
United States Department of Labor, Washington 25, D. C.
iBiiiiii
3984 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
i-m^^'ym^
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3985
Exhibit No. 24A
l», l»55
4ia €a&«» DNiiki#r» A««ii. w.
.iait4ibl» ibt«#»r«fe Mai&€tat«s Corp.
Ar» Sr&ttnstemi
tsing
'w«efl
V©.
89330 O— 57— pt. 10 26
3986
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
MX
f-~ ^■
'^, '^li
-,1 K.
%{
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3987
Exhibit No. 24B
« « ■< ■>., „ .
.'V<*mb®i
;*ou « eh«ck,
4»^~i*. aws« that
o:fie« ae je^. This
¥fi
■/ek^
Ktafil«y fc«hi'
3988
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD
81 PAY TO THE OROfR Or 81
8*1 Of mWWliiJIAIiW/iy
mmm mum imtmB mtr
\
it 4 F 4
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3989
PjXHIbit No. 24C
3990 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR MELD
/.
•^
f 4
*',
gt P»Y TO TMF ORfif!' or 81
imWfdii StSEASCh ^SSOCU^CS C8HP;
r ' •
1
"\
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3991
PDXHiBiT No. 26.
Local 227
L^nitcd Automobile Worker^ Union
3992 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 27
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 28 .
3993
3994
IMPROPER ACTIVITIEIS IN THE LABOR MELD
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IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 32A
3995
^'9
■^J
J
• • • •
• • • •
• • • •
• . •
« •
• •••
3996 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 32B
• « •
* • • •
•••
•••
z*^^
• •* . ; '- 4
• ••
• ••
y
IMPROPER ACnvrriES IN THE LABOR FIELD 3997
Exhibit Xo. 32C
t;
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• • • • •• •
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• • • •
• • • •
3998 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 33
?"
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h, !
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Ir
I
IMPROPER ACTIVrriES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ExniRiT No. 34
3999
ygfljugjium yawK^gatfaMw M0^x^ffi^
4000 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR MELD
Exhibit Xo. 35
4t.
4^
\ V
40 PAT TOJ
BmH Or ^r
? OF 40
CO.
BANKERS TRUST COf/^^^^j^(^- Succ.- sor Py M.n?.r Tn
The Public National Bank and Truat Company of New York
HANK ><n
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4001
Exhibit No. 36A
4^ rAYTOtert|li*KR OR. |0|l
BANK Of ^H[ r?,tlfl^!%L
BArnQQ-H BHASS:fatlluCTS. «Cl
h
I
.,K. Jac>.t;i:»0! Uf Mu-Ke' 'O
^i 1! i^Nf 0 BV
The P.ubiiL iwuurial Bank and Trust Company of New York
89330 O— 57— pt. 10 27
4002 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 36B
F 40
,..:, CO.
The l^iiblic i^atiofia} Bank and trust lompany of New York
F I >K U} \^-< INS MARK M> X
.1 .■ Mm.nt:
I K N1 1 ^ -^ : c 1 N
I ' \ N>, N ( i r
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4003
Exhibit No. 36C
41) ■ FAY IT! rm amm
BA"K on ■'""
Rl H RNtD BY
The Public National Bank and Trust Company of New York
\< A » k I ; . \
H^ (■} HMI'-' if 'N
4004 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 36D.
.J
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IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4005
Exhibit No. 37
Labor Organization Registration Form
Public Law 101~80th Congress
To: Bureau of Labor Standards,
United States Department of Labor, Washington 25, D. C.
u alio liy aiii
'iPSSSSSSWK™-!
4006 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4007
Exhibit No. 37 A
4008 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 38
Official Application
For
CHARTER OF AFFILUTION
Under the' Jurir.> ctiri* il laterm I %'tm
United Autoinohlk Workers of Uiici ca
AtfUiaimt uHih the America* Fedaratkm at l,eibor
TO THE GENERAL BXECLTIVE BOARD, INTERNATIONAI.
UNION. trNTTED AinPOMOBILE WORKERS OF AMERICA —
GREETINGS:
We hfrowilh m^ii-
Uonai I'nion, L'nitwl Ainomor.iic udtki
law* of the liitemational Union
19..
, Locai rnion f'hartiT lA AffiU.ilion in the Intcrna-
.America, to b<> i.s.s«ed and numlxT«»<i under the adopted
Nature of Work iXmc *uto Service Tra4«9 wd Jndustriai. Pi««it»
Name of Firm
Address
Li t
^^.'t tit^fij^ i'U^i/T'i.
>v
NumbtT of Kir,
r
\ We request \X\m
F^r^nk E»3tOP
roiiowm^; \\fX of ■■ighterii ( 18( mfmli^ts Ix,' m.'if'nix-d uj-on tnc i i^aricr
PBINT PLAINLl
Louis Axelrod
St: w
i
Leorarr* Princ«
ooo N»ndel
Robert S«uer
John Schwart*
Staclay S»glln
Rloh&H E««ton
i£i««k.iSB»Sa_
Jaeii San>OD
llvsr J»ok80«
Faith ->ey
Irlffln
Atx Patterson
FratprnaUy submitted,
Th«41ou» W*ahlagtoo
wwiiiiii iiiiiHii— iiiTliiiwmn
Region*! Director
• TK^
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4009
Exhibit No. 39
APPLICATION FOR CHARTER
IN TBI
Jnternational iBrotfjerfjoob of Ceamsiterg. Chauffeurs,
l^aretjousemen anb ^elperg of Simcnca
HElAIKil'ARTEBS
100 Indiana Ave., N. W Washinclon 1. O C
JOHN F. ENGLISH, G«neral Secretary-Treasurer
Titv ■■'■
Date •-■'-■••: • i '" ■:
V\e. the un(ier<iirne<i Wuk^-W orkers, U'lievinir it to l>e well oalcuiatt'ii to iniprovi' our ivoiinnm- and
SfM-ial tondition and promote our industrial well bein^r and advancement, respectfully petition the Interna-
tional Brotherhood of Team.stcrs, Chautfeurs, Warehousemen and Helpers of Amerua tn >.'rant a Charter to us
as representatives of:
Proposed Name of ( )rKanizat.o„ ^®.':'°"J1_^<1 1^°^"" - = - '
iNamr should Include typ* of cr»n and wnrtirra to be covirr^l
Jurisdiction. _ ^ ' ' _
Business Address
Aliticipntcd numl.rr dl iim ;
\Vf hereby plmlKe oui- ■
Usages of the Internatinr;,i
with the resers'ed right to j r
rules and regulations as ma>
ew York Area, New York
Ci:y or CiWMt
Union
N.
vially and colle(ti\<-ly. to ! • . w.i- ioiistitulion. liules ami
i of Teamsters, Chaiiffe'ii men and Helpers of America.
;i!itonom\ or self-governmi 1 si organization, subject to such
niaili , or are now established in our organi/.atiun as above named.
Name of Organizer
Address
J^ame of President
Address
Name of Secretary -Treasurer
• oseph Cure*
A.ldr.ss
«MC8 or APPUCANTS
'Ichard EaE\ _
Joseph Pouttl
»hen npre»s«ry. Srnd i
^ of all rhartrr mr'mhrrii with ihis Applfrallon.
4010 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 40
WARCHOUSC AND PROCESSING EMFLOYCCS UNION
LOCAL 362
n« W««T COCU»<l»<* •T«««T
HIMI^TtAO L 1
)v*wM4M i«iia
toMiriMr 1. ins
J«lat CMMli •!«
lirtia T. Ui««y, Fr«tf4«Bt
»3 Mttt Nth StrMt
N»« Y«rk. !«•• T»rk
Ottr Sir & Br*tiMir:
I •• •■elMisg • lUtiag tf tltUi •■<! •fflMn •£ Mr
UmI (telM '3i>3, tad r«<|Mttl*t tiat «• aajr INi •••t<Hl aa
(i«l««atM ta loiat CMaetl *16.
Si4My aaiM
Mirtta S«lilaB««r
AfemiMa Briar
Gaarga Haaleai
Sualajr S««lla
if fit lafaatia*
Harry Staia
fraaidMt
Vlaa-f^attfaat
S««7.-Traaa.
i*««r<lla9«4S*«jp,
Tniata*
Traata*
Tmata*
frataraallf.
AkrafeMi Briar
S«ajr . -Tr^aa ,
AB:ka
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Exhibit No. 40A
4011
WAREHOUSE AND PROCESSIN'
• L O C A L
. af T.
i-e>)ru;!r
cllul-
f'rsterr.ally yours.
kbrahai' ;rler. Secy, Treat,
BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY
3 9999 06352 020 7
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