rE"
t
is. i3Alo
Given By
U. S. SUrt^. OF DOCU^ffiNTS
_gJ
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORB THE]
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LIBOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 74, 85TH CONGRESS
AUGUST 20, 21, 22, AND 23, 1957
PART 13
Printed for the use of the R-^lact Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Fieid
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPEOPEK ICTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGEESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 74, 85TH CONGRESS
AUGUST 20, 21, 22, AND 23, 1957
PART 13
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
89330 WASHLNGTON : 1957
<>7Fi» A"?-^
Cr-
f
fs. 1 3 - 1 4»
Boston Public Library
Superin^c^'^r^nt of T~)ncuments
NOV 1 8^95?
SELECT COMMITTEE ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR
MANAGEMENT FIELD
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas, Chairman
IRVING M. IVES, Nevf York, Vice Chairman
JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
SAM J. ERVIN, JB., North Carolina BARRY GOLDWATER, Arizona
PAT McNAMARA, Michigan CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska
ROBERT F. Kennedy, Chief Counsel
Ruth Young Watt, Chief Clerk
u
CONTENTS
Area: New York (IIoffa)
Pag«
Appendix 5275
Testimony of —
Bellino, Carmine 5087
Fitzgerald, George S 5014, 5141
Hoflfa, James R 4928, 497 1 , 5014,
5037, 5073, 5077, 5091, 5127, 5142, 5165, 5207, 5247
Salinger, Pierre, E. G 5076
EXHIBITS
Intro-
duced on Appears
page on page
157. Check No. 1536 dated September 1, 1956, payable to Harold
L. Mark issued bv Food and Beverages Drivers, Local 337
in the amount of $12,500 4998 5275
158. Check No. 893 dated June 11, 1956, payable to Harold L.
Mark and issued bv Food and Beverage Drivers Local 337
in the amount of .$50,000 4998 5276
159. Four advertisements regarding the Sun Valley project selling
lots at $150 a lot 5009 (*)
160. Check No. 8163 dated September 29, 1955, payable to Ab-
stract Title Co., issued bv Food and Beverage Drivers
Local 337 in the amount of $37,500 5041 5277
161. Check No. 1177 dated July 27, 1956, issued by Food and
Beverage Drivers Union No. 237 and paj'able to Joseph
Bulger in the amount of $15,000 5042 5278
162. Check No. 1232 dated August 8, 1956, payable to Joseph Bul-
ger, attornev for fund 96 issued bv Food and Beverage
Drivers No. '337, in the amount of $134,317.79 5042 5279
163. Check No. 972 dated June 25, 1956, payable to Northville
Downs and issued bv Food and Beverage Drivers Local
337 in the amount of $50,000 5045 5280
164. Check No. 524 dated March 9, 1954, payable to Edward
Crumback issued by Michigan Conference of Teamsters
in the amount of $5,000 5046 5281
165. Document No. Mc-F-6167 dated June 14, 1957, put out by
Interstate Commerce Commission 5075 (*)
166. Bill rendered to local 337 dated April 16, 1956, re United
States v. Wholesale Produce Buyers Association, portion of
total bill for services rendered in the amount of $3,000- _ 5083 5282
167. Check No. 2802 dated December 30, 1952, payable to Whole-
sale Producers Business Association issued by Food and
Beverage Drivers Union No. 337 in the amount of $500- _ 5086 5283
168. Check No. 784 dated June 8, 1957, payable to John L.
Cowling issued bv Michigan Conference of Teamsters in
the amount of $260 5086 .5284
169. Letter dated June 9, 1957, to political action committee,
Michigan Conference of Teamsters, and signed by John
L. Cowling, national secretary and director of public
relations acknowledging receipt of check 5087 5285
170. Check No. 4161 dated September 15, 1953, payable to joint
council No. 43 issued bv Food and Beverage Drivers No.
337 in the amount of $5,000 5135 5286
171. Bills from the Woodner Hotel for people who stayed there
during the Hoffa trial 5165 (*)
in
See footnote at end of contents.
IV CONTENTS
Intro-
duced on Appears
page on page
Proceedings of-
August20, 1957 4927
August 21, 1957 5037
August 22, 1957 5127
August 23, 1957 5207
• May be found in the flies of the select committee.
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
TUESDAY, AUGUST 20, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN THE Labor or Management Field,
Washington^ B.C.
The select committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room. Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator
Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York; Senator John F. Kennedy,
Democrat, Massachusetts; Senator Pat McNamara, Democrat, ]\Iichi-
gan; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat, North Carolina; Senator
Karl E. jNIundt, Republican, South Dakota; Senator Barry Gold'
water. Republican, Arizona; Senator Carl T. Curtis, Republican,
Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, chief assistant counsel; Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel; Rob-
ert E. Dunne, assistant counsel ; John Cye Cheasty, assistant counsel ;
Walter R. May, assistant counsel ; Walter Sheridan, assistant counsel ;
K. Philip O'Donnell, assistant counsel ; Carmine S. Bellino, account-
ing consultant; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator; James Mundie,
investigator ; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee wdll be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session were : Senators McClellan, Ives, Kennedy, McNamara, Ervin,
Mundt, and Goldwater.)
The Chairman. The Chair observes that we have quite an audience
this morning. You are welcome, but we must maintain order and
bear that in mind. Be as comfortable as you can. This hearing will
last possibly until 12 or 12 : 30 this morning.
Is there anything at this time, Mr. Counsel ?
Mr. Kennedy. No, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, will you be sworn, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes ; I do.
4927
4928 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, state your name
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. The Chair will recognize you in a moment.
State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occu-
pation, please, sir.
Mr. Hoffa. My name is James R. Hoffa. I am a business repre-
sentative and a vice president of the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, you failed to give your address.
Mr. Hoffa. 16154 Eobson, Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. You have counsel to represent you ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir, I do; George S. Fitzgerald, from Detroit.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, will you identify yourself for the
record ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. My name is George S. Fitzgerald, of Detroit,
Mich., 2550 Guardian Building.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Hoffa, the Chair received a wire from you dated August 17,
in which you stated that you had a preliminary statement that you
would like to make.
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir, I do, and with your permission I would like
to read it in the record.
The Chairman. The Chair may say to other members of the com-
mittee, as I understand it, your statement is quoted in full in the
telegram you sent the Chair.
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct.
The Chairman. The Chair has examined it, and I see no objection
to the statement being read.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I say one word, Mr. Chairman ? Now, if the
photographers in front of us desire to take all of the pictures now,
that is perfectly agreeable to Mr. Hoffa. However, as his testimony
starts, we would ask that the picture taking stop so that there will
be no diverting of his attention from the question.
The Chairman. You are speaking of the photographers in front
of you ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. The photographers here in front of us.
The Chairman. That request will be granted, and the photogra-
phers will be governed accordingly.
Now let me see, so that there will be no misunderstanding later,
you do not want any pictures snapped from any angle while you
are testifying?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't have any particular objection as long as they
are not directly in front of me, where I will not be able to concentrate
on what the Senators want to know.
The Chairman. We had a little misunderstanding with the pho-
tographers yesterday about that, and I wanted to settle it early in
the hearings this morning. I am sure that the photographers under-
stand, and if you want any pictures now, get them before we begin.
Otherwise, move around to the side.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4929
Now, gentlemen, we don't want you in line between the vision of
the Senators and the witness. Get your position and get comfortable,
and let us all relax, and we will proceed.
Is it all right now ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir ; it is all right.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Hoffa, you may read your statement.
Mr. Hoffa. Hon. John L. McClellan, chairman of the Select Com-
mittee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Field,
Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C.
In accordance with paragraph 7 of the rules of procedure of the
Select Committee on Labor and Management Activities, I desire to
file with you a statement which I may read to you when I am called
as a witness before your committee, and the statement reads as follows.
In accordance with the rules of the select committee, I filed the
following statement. Now with the permission of the committee I
will read it for the purpose of the record.
Apparently I will be called upon to answer questions relating to
certain situations and events affecting individuals and groups of indi-
viduals which occurred over a considerable span of time. I have
attempted to refresh my recollection with respect to many phases of
my labor activities since I received the subpena of this committee.
My testimony here in all particulars will be based upon my best
recollection of a situation or event the moment I testify. I reserve
within reason the right to amend or revise my testimony where accu-
racy requires it.
With this in mind I respectfully request the right to review a tran-
script of my testimony after it is concluded and to make any correc-
tions, amendments, additions, or revisions that are proper and neces-
sary,
I further reserve the right to refuse to answer any questions which
relate to matters outside the scope of the committee's authority, or
which are not related to a proper legislative purpose, or which are not
pertinent to this inquiry.
If I, through inadvertence, answer questions with respect to mat-
ters which are subject to the above objections, my answers should not
be considered a waiver of such objections.
Signed by myself, James R. Hoffa.
The Chairman. Is there anything you wish to add to that state-
ment?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir. The last paragraph was placed in there after
considerable discussion. Not having the benefit of knowing the exact
phases of this investigation or knowing the questions that would be
proposed, I believe that it will be necessary for me to have such a
right, not having the previous Iniovv ledge that I mentioned.
The Chairman. The Chair will make an observation which may be
regarded as a tentative ruling by the Chair.
With respect to your stating that you will testify to the best of your
recollection at the moment, at the time that you testify, that of course
is possibly all that can be expected of any witness, unless we are able
to refresh your memory a little and thus help you to recall some
things.
Then with respect to reviewing a transcript of your testimony, this
testimony is being taken in public session, and a transcript of it, of
course, is available to you if you desire to purchase it from the re-
4930 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
porter, and a copy of it, of course, will be kept on file in the committee
as a permanent record.
With respect to changing the transcript of your testimony, or chang-
ing the testimony you give by revising the transcript, the Chair will
say that these transcripts are edited by a member of the staff for tech-
nical errors and so forth, before they are printed as a permanent rec-
ord. Testimony, however, given under oath by a witness cannot be
changed except'that the witness return to the witness stand and under
oath make the change liimself .
At that tune, of course, he will be subject to further cross-examina-
tion.
So you will have the opportunity to see a transcript, and of course,
under the rules, you can acquire one for your own use if you desire it.
Now, with respect to the other matters, your reserving the right to
decline to answer questions which relate to matters outside the scope
of the committee's authority or which do not relate to proper legisla-
tive purpose or which are not pertinent to the inquiry. Of course, you
will have to risk your judgment and the advice of your counsel on
that. As to questions asked you, if the Chair and the committee rule
the questions to be pertinent, and rule them to be within the scope of
the inquiry and authority and jurisdiction of this committee, then you
will have to make the decision as to whether you will answer or refuse
to answer, and of course you have the right to have advice of your
counsel on that issue.
I hope no such issue will arise. If it does, we will proceed accord-
ingly.
Are there any questions or comments by the members of the com-
mittee ?
Senator Ivf:s. Mr. Chairman, I simply would like to point out this
matter M^as discussed with the committee in executive session and we
are all in agreement with the position you take.
The Chatr]\tan. Thank you very much.
All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed with the witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hotfa, you have been in the teamsters union for
how long ?
Mr. HoFEA. In the teamsters union since approximately 1932.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were a president of a local at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I was president of a local union, and I don't know
whether it was local -32 or 34. I became president of a local union
which was the Coimnission House Local Union which originated out
of a Federal labor union.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that local 299 ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, it is not. I think it was 674, but don't hold me
to the number.
Mr. Kennedy. Did it merge with 299 ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. 299 was a separate contract that had over-the-
road drivers, city cartage, and dock employees, and I was requested by
the then secretary of tlie council through the international office to
take over the operations of local 299 shortly thereafter.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien did you become president or head of 299 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Under trusteeship somewhere between 1932 and 1934^
or 1935, somewhere around there.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you still hold a position with that union ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4931
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I was first appointed and then I have been elected
several times since then.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you president of it ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, do you hold some other positions with the
teamsters union at the present time ?
. Mr. PIoFFA. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us what they are ?
Mr. PIoFFA. Do you want them all, or the pertinent ones?
Mr. Kennedy. You are chairman of the negotiating committee?
Mr. HoFFA. I will give you the main ones and if you want more I
■will give them to you also.
I am president of Joint Council 43, City of Detroit.
I am president of Michigan Conference of Teamsters.
I am president of the central conference of teamsters; chairman
and president.
I am vice president and negotiating chairman of the Central States
Drivers Council.
I am the coordinator of the IMontgomery Ward national organizing
drive.
I am vice president of the international union.
From time to time 1 have had several other designations, as assign-
ments were given to me by the general president.
Mr. Kennedy. Since you have been with the teamsters union, you
haA'e been arrested a number of times ; have you ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
, Mr. Kennedy. How many times, approximately, do you think?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't know, Bob. I haven't counted them up.
I think maybe about 17 times I have been picked up, took into cus-
tody of the police, and out of the 17 times, 3 of those times — in many
instances these were dismissed- — but in 3 of those times I received
convictions.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, the first one was in 1940 ; was it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that was an assault and battery; is that
correct ?
Mr. Iv^ennedy. That is not the one I w'as thinking of.
Mr. HoFFA. I am talking about the ones where I was simply taken
off of a picket line because of a disagreement with some so-called police-
man of authority without any legal authority. I haven't kept track
of those.
Mr. Kennedy. But there are about 17 in all and you think you have
been convicted on 3 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you have the record, and you can count them.
Mr. Kennedy. Then there was a violation of the Federal antitrust
law.
Mr. HoFFA. There was indeed. But I want to point out that the
violation of the Federal antitrust law resulted out of an organizing
drive of wastepaper drivers in the city of Detroit. The result was
that Thurman Arnold at that time was trying to interpret the law
different than it is today, and we became involved with some em-
ployers of a small nature who refused to cooperate and attempt to
establish decent wages and conditions for our members.
Mr. Kennedy. There was a charge that you knowingly engaged
in a combination and conspiracy unreasonable to prevent other firms
4932 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
from selling wastepaper for shipment from Detroit and other States
into Canada, wasn t that it ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was settled on the basis of nolo contendere with a
fine and probation, I believe.
Mr. Kennedy. There was a charge of a conspiracy between you,
the union
Mr. HoFFA. I want to correct the probation. There was just a fine
originated out of that particular case, and strictly involved the ques-
tion of labor.
Mr. Kennedy. A conspiracy between you or the union and certain
wastepaper companies ; is that correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was so charged.
Mr. Kennedy. And it was nolo contendere ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. And you paid a $1,000 fine?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And then you were indicted in 1946, isn't that right,
and convicted on a charge then ?
Mr. HoFFA. For what purpose?
Mr. Kennedy. In connection with grocers and meat dealers in
Detroit.
Mr, HoFFA. I was charged in a particular grand jury with a veiy
serious charge.
Mr. Kennedy. That was of extortion ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct. The extortion charge was a question
of refusing to load nonunion individual owners who had taken jobs
away from war veterans and refused to give those jobs back to the
war veterans, because under OPA they had learned how to cheat on
the question of paying the proper wage scales. Later on that was
reduced to a simple misdemeanor of a Michigan State law known as
the vine-trip law, and now the Michigan labor law.
Mr. Kennedy. You entered a plea on that ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct ; a misdemeanor plea.
Mr. Kennedy. And nolo contendere ?
Mr, HoFFA. No, a misdemeanor plea.
Mr. Kennedy. There was some money returned to the various
companies, was there?
Mr. HoFFA. Moneys that we returned were the moneys that were
collected in the way of initiation fees that had been paid by those
individuals that made the complaint.
Mr. Kennedy. You were collecting $5 from each one of these
grocers, as I understand it.
Mr. HoFFA. That is not correct,
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell us ?
Mr. HoFFA. We were collecting initiation fees from those grocers
that were bein^ entered into a ledger for the purpose of having ini-
tiation fees paid where they could have a paid-up book in the team-
sters union.
Mr. Kennedy. And the court held that you shouldn't collect ini-
tiation fees,
Mr. HoFFA. The court didn't hold any such thing. The court held
that we had violated the newly established State labor law, and since
we had violated it, one of the agreements with the court was that we
return the money. I may say for your information today that we
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE lABOR FIELD 4933
have the right to do legally today what they said we could not do
legally then.
Mr. Kennedy. You say you were collecting initiation fees and the
court held that what you were doing was illegal ?
Mr. HoFTA. The court held it was a violation of the Michigan
labor law, but they did not hold, and if you would go into the case
to look in all of the publicity, somebody had to save their face, so the
result was that the court held it was a violation of a newly established
law at that time, the Michigan State labor law.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoft'a, I am not saying whether you are guilty
or not guilty. I am just trying to get
Mr. HoFFA. You are implying that I am guilty of extortion and it
isn't true.
Mr. Kennedy. I asked you whether you were found guilty or
whether you pleaded nolo contendere or whether you pleaded to a
misdemeanor in 1946.
Mr. PIoFFA. I have answered the question.
Mr. Kennedy. And that you had to return the money that you were
collecting from these various grocers.
Mr. HoFFA. I have answered the question.
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately $7,500 ; is that right ; that you had
to return ?
Mr. HoFFA. Approximately.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, in addition to these
Mr. HoFFA. I think maybe a little more.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. In addition to these matters, Mr. Hoffa, in addition
to your interest in the union, you have also had some business interests ;
have you ? ,J
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us a little bit about those? How
many different businesses have you been in, do you think?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I think I have it here, if you will wait a minute.
You were sent a letter on February 8, 1957, at your request. Is it
necessary to read that letter ?
Mr. Kennedy. I don't think so, and maybe I can just ask you
about some of those businesses.
Mr. HoFFA. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, I would like to start off, maybe, with the J & H
Sales Co. That is a business in which you had some interest, or your
family did ?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. The J & H Sales Co., is that correct?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you get into that business?
Mr. Hoffa. Well now, you are asking me dates, and we have a
problem.
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately when.
Mr. Hoffa. I will try to give it to you in just a moment.
1 understand from my counsel that you requested 1950, and ap-
parently that information was prior to 1950, so I haven't got the
information with me — only since 1950.
4934 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE La\BOR FIELD
However, I can very easily tell you what it was, and if you want
the dates I can establish it again by letter for you.
Mr. Kennedy. "Would you do that? Just tell us what that com-
pany was.
Mr. HoFFA. It was a company dealing in the question of leasing
equipment to a truckaway company that delivers automobiles other
than on their own power.
Mr. Kennedy. "\\Tiat does leasing equipment mean? What do
you mean by that ?
Mr. HoFFA. A tractor or a trailer is leased to a company who has
ICC permits, for the purpose of delivering automobiles over tlieir
certificated routes.
Mr, Kennedy. iVnd you own some tractors and trailers and you
lease them out?
Mr. HoFFA. I think there was one of that particular instance, of
that company, if I am not mistaken, and later on there was more in
the second company.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, to whom did you lease that equipment?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it was Baker Driveway.
Mr, Kennedy. And who owned Baker Driveway at this time?
Mr. HoFFA. Bill Baker. Or Bill Bridge owned it.
Mr. Kennedy. Bill Bridge ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And what is Mr. Bridges business ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I explained, he has an ICC certificate that peraiits
him to deliver automobiles and other commodities in a certified area.
JMr. Kennedy. And does he have the teamsters driving the trucks ?
Mr. HoFFA. He does.
Mr. Kennedy. He has bargaining relationships with the teamsters.
Mr. PToFFA. He does.
Mr. Kennedy. And you had some equipment that you were leasing
to him : is that right?
Mr. HoFFA. At that time I believe we had one piece of equipment.
That is correct, and I may say, also, that the majority of the equip-
ment of that company was individually owned by those persons who
supplied the power.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, that business was in your name; was it?
Mr. HoFFA. At that time I believe it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it alwavs in your name ?
Mr. PIoFFA. What is that?*
Mr. Kennedy. Was it always in your name?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Yhn else's name ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think maybe, and I don't want to be held to this
because you didn't ask me to bring it and so I am now jjiving you,
my best recollection ; I think maybe in the name of James Montan'.
Mr. Kennedy. That is when it was originally set up. Who was
James Montan ?
Mr. HoFFA. An attorney.
Mr. Kennedy. An attorney working for the t^eamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. No, he was not.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was he working for?
Mr. HoFFA. Myself?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4935
Mr. Kennedy. You paid him yourself ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think that I paid him. I think that Jim and I
are friends enough and he simply drew some papers.
Mr. Kennedy. The company was owned in his name?
Mr. PIoFFA. No, I think the stock certificates were issued tem-
porarily to him, and then it was transferred to us.
Mr. Kennedy. To you ?
Mr. HoFFA. To myself and Bert Brennan.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it in your name then ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it would be necessarily if the stock was trans-
ferred to me.
Mr. Kennedy. Except if it was transferred to your wife's name.
Mr. HoFFA. Not at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, subsequently was it transferred to your wife ?
Mr. HoFFA. In a different company, and I don't think J & H was.
Mr. KJENNEDY. I believe that the record shows that it was trans-
ferred. This stock was transferred to Alice Johnson, and Josephine
Poszywak.
Mr. HoFFA. I think that you are wrong. I think in the J & H it
was to myself, and I think that you will find that National Trailer
Sales, or National Equipment, I guess it was, is the one that you are
talking about. J & II had a very short life.
Mr. Kennedy. Who succeeded J & H ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think National Equipment,
Mr. Kennedy. And th.at stock was in whose name?
Mr. HoFFA. In my wife's maiden name.
Mr. Kennedy. In your wife's maiden name ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. So, it went from Montan to your name and then to
your wife's maiden name?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that is the way it happened. Now, if you
want the information, if you will check the Congressional Eecord of
1953 by Congressman Hoffman, you can get the data that was sup-
plied after we had time for some research.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it just in your wife's maiden name, and was it
in any other name ?
Mr. HoFFA. The stock that my wife held was in her maiden name.
Mr. Kennedy. Did anybody else have an interest in the com-
pany?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Who else had an interest?
Mr. HoFFA. Alice Johnson, which is Mrs. Bert Brennan; in her
name.
Mr. Kennedy. In her maiden name, also ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was Bert Brennan ?
Mr. HoFFA. Bert Brennan is my associate, the President of local
union 337.
Mr, Kennedy. What was National Equipment Co, ?
Mr. HoFFA. National Equipment Co., again, was a question of leas-
ing, I believe, either tractors or trailers, one or the other, or both, and
I am not sure at this moment, to the Baker Driveway Co.
Mr. Kennedy, That was the same company that you were leasing
your equipment from J & H to ?
4936 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. From the sales company to Baker Driveway ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did anybody at that time, did anybody else own
Baker Driveway, other than the gentleman you have mentioned be-
fore, Mr. Bridge?
Mr. HoFFA. I think there was C. D. Matheson.
Mr. Ejjnnedy. Mr. Carney Matheson ?
Mr. HoFFA. He had some stock in the company, and what amount,
I don't know.
Mr. I^nnedy. "VVlio is Mr. Carney Matheson ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is an attorney at law.
Mr. Kennedy. Whom does he represent; unions?
Mr. HoFFA. He represents the trucking industry.
Mr. Kennedy. He represents the trucking industry ?
Mr. HoFFA. In regard to the National Automobile Haulaway Trans-
port business, and also he represents some common carriers and he
has other general law practice.
Mr. Kennedy. And he also has an ownership of some companies?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. In Baker Driveway ?
Mr. HoFFA. He had some minority stock.
Mr. Kennedy. And does he represent these truckers with the team-
sters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is an attorney for the truckers.
Mr. Kennedy. And he represents them in their negotiations with
the teamsters union?
Mr. HoFFA. Occasionally, if he is on the committee.
Mr. Kennedy. And so, J. cS; H. Sales Co. became National Equip-
ment Co., and the National Equipment Co. was owned in your wife's
maiden name, and in Bert Brennan's wife's maiden name, and they
leased equipment to Baker Driveway, which was owned by Mr.
Bridge, a truckowner, and by Mr. Carney Matheson, who did the
negotiating for the truckers with the teamsters.
Mr. HoFFA. I think that there were more individuals than those
two particular people stockholders, and, not knowing all of the
stockholders, I don't want to qualify on that point.
Mr. Kennedy. Who set up National Equipment Co. for you?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think Albert Matheson was the one who set up
the coroporation papers.
Mr. I^nnedy. Who is Albert Matheson ?
Mr. HoFFA. Brother of C D. Matheson.
Mr. Kennedy. That is, brother of Carney Matheson, who does the
negotiating for the truckers with the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he set you up in business in National Equip-
ment Co. ?
Mr. HoFFA. He didn't set me up in business at all. He simply
drafted some necessary le^al papers for the corporation to be formed,
and I set myself up in business.
Mr, Kennedy. You transferred your one piece of equipment over
from J. & H. Sales.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 4937
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know. I don't know at this moment. It seems
to me that the one piece of equipment went somewhere else and, if
I remember correctly, there was some additional equipment that was
purchased for National Equipment, and I am not quite sure at this
moment.
JSfr. Kennedy. How did you purchase the equipment or trucks for
National Equipment?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe they were International trucks, and they must
have come through the International people.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat do you mean, "International trucks"?
Mr. HoFFA. International trucks, the manufacturer of Inter-
national.
Mr. Kennedy. You purchased them from them ?
Mr. HoFFA. They were purchased, and I don't know exactly who
purchased the trucks ; probably, my partner.
Mr. ICennedy. Who is your partner ?
Mr. HoFFA. Bert Brennan, for his wife.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. "V\niat is his position, again ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is president of local union 337.
Mr. Ivennedy. With whom do they have bargaining relationships ?
Mr. HoFFA. With the wholesale grocers, warehousemen, and various
other people.
Mr. Kennedy. You think he is the one who got the trucks?
Mr. HoFFA. I think he made the arrangement, and I don't recall
offhand. It is quite a while ago.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did he get the money to get the trucks ?
Mr. HoFFA, From a bank.
Mr. Kennedy. He borrowed the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe we did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did anybody guarantee that loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand, I don't know, at this moment.
Mr. Kennedy. So we are in National Equipment Co. now, and
that remained in existence, did it ?
Mr. HoFFA. For a short space of time, I believe, and I don't think
that it operated too long.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you sell National Equipment ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes ; we did.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliom did you sell National Equipment to ?
Mr. HoFFA. We sold it to Bill Bridge, I believe.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you sell it to Convertible Equipment Leasing
Co.?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, now, it could have been a subsidiary, but I think
that you will find somewhere in the picture that Bridge was behind
there, and I don't know exactly who bought it.
Mr. Kennedy. And who else was behind there ?
Mr. HoFFA. I could give you the information, if you want it.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, was Mr. Matheson also interested in buying
National Equipment Co. ?
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did you receive for that
company ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think, and not being held to it again, I think maybe
$10,000.
4938 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE L.\BOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy, So, Mr. Bridge
Mr. HoFFA. For our equity.
Mr. Kennedy, Excuse me ?
Mr. HoFFA. $10,000 for our equity in the equipment that we had.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Bridge paid $10,000, or his associates paid
$10,000, for National Equipment Co. ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. For the equitj'' ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think, and, again, I am not going to be held to the
question, because you didn't ask me to bring it here — —
]Mr. Kennedy. Well, now, we had better get down to that. I think
that I spoke to Mr. Fitzgerald on Friday, and I said we would go
back to 1948 and I was interested in your businesses. The question
of whether we asked that you bring it here, I think that I spoke to
Mr. Fitzgerald and asked that you bring all of the information, at
least from 1948. Now, you are doing very well as it is, and so we can
go along, and I don't want to get into a dispute about it.
Mr. HoFFA. I would say that the information that you are securing
can be secured, and I assume you have the records of the Hoffman
hearings. It is in the Hoffman hearings records.
Mr. Kennedy. We find it is rather incomplete and that is why
I would like to get as much as I can.
Mr. HoFFA. I have the record and if you want me to bring them
over this afternoon, I will bring back the volume that you are looking
for.
Mr, Kennedy. Maybe you could just go on. You are doing very
well, and maybe you could answer some more of these questions. So
you sold National Equipment Co. to Mr. Bridge, the trucker, for
$10,000.
Did you get into any other of this kind of business after that ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. There was a company originated known
as Test Fleet for my wife and Bert Brennan's wife.
Mr, Kennedy. Now, Test Fleet is the name ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. That sort of succeeded National Equipment?
Mr. HoFFA. No, Test Fleet was a different concern and leased equip-
ment to a different concern.
Mr. Kennedy. About when was that formed. Test Fleet?
Mr.HoFFA. In 1949.
Mr. Kennedy. How was that set up ?
Mr. HoFFA. Again, it was a question of leasing equipment to a
company without drivers for the purpose of pullmg their trailers,
and the delivery of automobiles throughout their certificated ter-
ritory.
Mr. Kennedy. So what did you do ?
Mr. HoFFA. What is that?
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat did you do ? It was a question of doing this,
so what did you do? Did you decide you were the man to do it?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think I did anything personally. I think
Bert Brennan handled the details for his wife and my wife through
an attorney named James Wrape.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was James Wrape ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4939
Mr. HoFFA. James Wrape was an attorney, I believe, operating out
of St. Louis, Mo.
Mr. Kennedy. For whom was lie attorney ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was an attorney for a truck company.
Mr. Kennedy. He was an attorney for a truck company ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Specifically was he the attorney for Commercial
Carriers ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Who owned Commercial Carriers ?
Mr. HoFFA. Walter Brennan and Bert Beveridge.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Beveridge had difficulty with your union
or one of the unions, did he ?
Mr. HoFFA. He didn't have difficulty.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a strike called ?
Mr. HoFFA. There was a strike called.
Mr. Ivennedy. Did you go up with Mr. Beveridge to try to settle
the strike ?
Mr. HoFFA. I went up without Mr. Beveridge to settle the strike
to avoid a very serious lawsuit against our union and against the
members who were involved in the lawsuit.
Mr. Kennedy. These people who were involved, they owned their
own equipment, did they ?
Mr. HoFFA. What is that?
Mr. Kennedy. These members of the union that were having the
difficulty with Mr. Beveridge, they owned their own equipment and
they were losing it to Commercial Carriers ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Had they in the past ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy. They had leased their equipment and now they were
striking against Commercial Carriers ?
Mr. HoFFA. So we don't have any mystery out of this situation,
do you want the proper explanation ?
Mr. Kennedy. You would rather give it in your own words ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you will be more complete if I give it to you
the way it happened rather than rumor.
Mr. I^nnedy. I was just asking you a question, I am not trying to
get rumor.
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, this is what happened;
that in Flint, Mich., Commercial Carriers during the war almost
had a termination of business because of the plants going into war
material. After the war was over, they went back into the produc-
tion of automobiles, and the company prior to that time had some
mdividual owners and, I believe, some company equipment. They
deemed it advisable to have all company-owned equipment. The
company notified the individual broker, according to his contractual
relationship, of a termination.
The men protested of the termination and the company took the
position that under their ICC authority, they had a right to operate
their business on the basis that the certificate gave them the right to
operate. When they placed their equipment, their company equip-
ment, on the job, it was with the full understanding and knowledge
89330— 57— pt. 13 2
4940 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
that the men would receive their full seniority rights as company
drivers, and that they would also receive the prevailmg wage scale of
the drivers on an areawide contract, not an individual companywide
agreement.
There is certain individuals who protested the fact that the com-
pany was going to go into their own company-owned equipment.
There were meetings called by the local miions. The matter was
discussed with the attorneys, and they were advised, and the union
was advised, that under the law the company had a right to place
its own equipment operations into effect. The question was settled,
the men went to work, and, if my memory serves me right, maybe in
30, 60, or 90 days, I don't know which, somebody generated a strike.
Wlien they generated the strike, they were called into a meeting
and told, so I am told — I wasn't at those meetings but I had reports
from them — that it was an illegal strike and they should go back
to work. They refused to go to work. It then became my problem
as the National Truck-Away Drive-Away chairman to go into that
situation.
I went into the situation and advised the people that it was an
illegal strike, advised the possibilities or the penalties under the
Taft-Hartley law, that you gentlemen passed, and at that time they
still refused.
I invited the company representatives to come up to Flint, sit
down with a committee of drivers, and we finally arrived at a
settlement.
In the meantime, though, the company got very hostile, and knowing
they had a legal position which we couldn't probably beat in court,
took a position they wouldn't hire the men unless they went back
without seniority.
After extended negotiations, we did get the company to agree to put
them back to work with this proviso : That after 60 days, if there was
no more illegal strikes, the men who went to work would receive
retroactively all other combined seniority rights which protected
their fringe benefits and their right to work or be laid off.
Certain individuals, I believe 6 or 7, I am not sure of the number,
decided they were not going to comply, and established a picket line,
a picket line which everybody knew was for the purpose of trying to
force the company to hire outside equipment rather than their own
equipment.
They were advised, I am told by their own lawyers, that they were
placing theirselves in jeopardy. The company took the position that
since the men would not return to work that they were not employees
of the company.
Since then, they have appealed to the courts, they have appealed to
the National Labor Relations Board, the Michigan Unemployment
Commission, and in each instance a strike has been ruled as an illegal
strike and the men's claims have been rejected.
Mr. Kennedy. You say "this company." We'd better get back to the
name of the company. You say this company became hostile, is that
right ?
Mr. HoFFA. The management.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio was the management?
Mr. HoFFA. Beveridge.
IMPRiOPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 4941
Mr. Kennedy. Bert Beveridge. ^Vho represents Commercial Car-
riers? Who is their attorney?
Mr. HoFFA. I think Wrape.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Wrape?
Mr. HoFFA. I think.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mi\ Carney Matheson represent them, also?
Mr. HoFFA. At that time I think Matheson only represented the
association. I don't think he represented the company, personally, to
the best of my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently, did you learn that he did represent
the company ?
Mr. HoFFA. I haven't inquired into it.
Mr. Kennedy, You don't know that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not offhand ; no.
Mr. Kennedy. You have no information that he ever represented
Commercial Carriers ?
Mr. HoFFA. I may have had, but I don't remember at this moment.
It wasn't of any value.
Mr. Kennedy. I see. But, anyway, Mr. Wrape represented Com-
mercial Carriers. They were getting hostile
Mr. HoFFA. I said I believe that Jim Wrape represented them. I
can only do it from recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. And they had decided that they would own their
own equipment ?
Mr. HoFFA. They would have drivers driving equipment not owned
by the drivers. Let's put it that way.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you repeat that ?
Mr. HoFFA. They would have equipment operated by drivers that
did not own the equipment.
Mr. Kennedy. I see. So, following that, following the difficulties
that these union members had with this company, do you say that
Test Fleet was set up ?
Mr. HoFFA. I did not.
Mr, Kennedy. Was Test Fleet set up subsequently ?
Mr. HoFFA, Later on, when the company decided that they would
have fleet equipment rather than own and lay out the investment for
all of their OAvn equipment, Brennan discussed the question with
Beveridge and then brought it to my attention.
Mr. Kennedy. He was less hostile by this time, was he?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, now, I don't know if he was or he wasn't, but
at least his strike was over,
Mr. Kennedy. O. K.
Mr, HoFFA. And the result was that, since he was looking for
individuals to invest their money in equipment, my wife and Bren-
nan's wife became engaged in the question of leasing equipment under
the name of Test Fleet.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wlio set up that company ?
Mr. HoFFA, Offhand, I can't tell you, but I think it was Wrape. I
am guessing now.
Mr. Kennedy, Didn't he also become the first president ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think maybe he did, on a temporary basis.
Mr, Kennedy, So, the attorney for the Commercial Carriers, whose
management had been hostile originally, sets up a company and
4942 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
became the first president, in the name of your wife, in her maiden
name, and also Bert Brennan's wife's maiden name; is that right?
Mr. HoFFA. When you talk about hostile, let's straighten the record
out. We don't normally have hostile employers in our business. We
normally have very good labor relations. But the best employer,
when h(B has an illegal strike, becomes rather agitated, let's say, to the
least, and in this particular instance he was agitated because his
equipment wasn't operating, and it didn't make him any less a better
employer than he was previously, because he was not reneging on
paying the prevailing scales, nor was he attempting to take any con-
dition away from the men.
Mr. Kennedy. He got less agitated when his attorney came and
had a conversation with Bert Brennan and suggested tliat you people
set up a company to lease equipment to Commercial Carriers.
Mr. HoFFA. Of course, that is what you are guessing, and you know
that it isn't true.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you said Bert Brennan and he liad a
conversation.
Mr. HoFFA. I did not say he became less agitated. I said that they
had a conversation and Beveridge asked Brennan, to my information,
as to whether or not he was desirous of putting equipment on as a
fleet operation without truckdrivers.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, I would think that would indicate that he was
less agitated then, when he came and approached
Mr. HoFFA. Well, you can think what you AYant. Whether or not
it is right or not, you weren't there. You don't know the circum-
stances. I do.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you say whether he was less agitated then or
not?
Mr. HoFFA. I would say, when a strike is not in effect, everybody is
less agitated. Senator.
The Chairman. Then he was less agitated.
Mr. HoFFA. When a strike is not in effect.
Mr. Kennedy. He came to the head of the Michigan Conference
of Teamsters — you are president of joint council 43, the chairman
of the negotiating committee — and also to Bert Brennan, who was
head of local 337, and he came to them, the attorney for commercial
carriers, and suggested you set up a company and you lease the
equipment ?
Mr. HoFFA. That isn't the testimony I just gave you.
Mr. Kennedy, Well, then, you tell me all over again what Mr.
Brennan said to Mr. Beveridge.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I would say this to you, Mr. Kennedy : that I am
here to assist, rather than argue, and Igave you, to the best of my
recollection, a factual background of what happened in this particu-
lar dispute. I think I have answered your question. It is a matter,
now, of record.
Mr. Kennedy. All right. So Mr. Bert Beveridge had a conversa-
tion with Mr. Bert Brennan, president of local 337, and Mr. Brennan—
did Mr. Brennan speak to you about it then ?
Mr. HoFFA. He certainly did.
Mr. Kennedy. And at that time you were head of the Michigan
Conference of Teamsters ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4943
]Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were cliairmaii of the negotiating committee
of the Central States Drivers Council ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were president of local 289 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Let's go back again. You said I was president of the
Michigan Conference of Teamsters and president of the Central Con-
ference of Teamsters ?
Mr. Kennedy. I asked you.
Mr. HoFFA. That is what you said.
Mr. Kennedy. Chairman of the negotiating committee of the
Central States Drivers Council ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, which had nothing to do with the ques-
tion of negotiating this contract.
]\Ir. Kennedy. Anyway, you had a fairly reasonably responsible
position with the teamsters at the time in Michigan.
Mr. HoFFA. And I still do.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Beveridge came to Mr. Brennan and you,
too, and then JNIr. Brennan had a conversation with you, and the com-
pany was set up with Mr. Wrape, the attorney for Commercial
Carriers, as the first president ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, was that a Michigan company that was set up ?
Mr. HoFFA. No ; I don't believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go out of the State to set the company up ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think that the record will have to speak for
itself. I don't remember offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you think you might have gone down to Tennes-
see and set up a Tennessee corporation ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is just possible it could happen.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Wrape, for the Commercial Carriers, was
the first president ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was for hire. He was an attorney.
Mr. Kennedy. "V^^io paid him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine that the
Mr. Kennedy. Commercial Carriers ?
ISIr. HoFFA. I don't believe so. I don't know for sure, but I imagine
that, since he was president, he could have paid himself out of the
■first check that came from Test Fleet. I don't know offhand. Bob.
Mr. Kennedy. You never paid him, yourself ?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't pay anybody in Test Fleet. Let's get this
correct. I did not set up, nor did I run, nor did I have the stock,
of Test Fleet, nor at any time did Test Fleet employ any drivers
that came under the supervision of our organization, but, rather, that
Commercial Carriers hired only power equipment and they, them-
Felves, had the drivers driving the equipment under their supervision,
their payroll, and a standard, areawide contract.
Mr. Kennedy. The Commercial Carriers has a contract with the
teamsters, have they ?
Mr. HoFFA. They are part of an association areawide contract.
Mr. Kennedy. And they are part of an association that has a con-
tract with the teamsters, and teamsters drive
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think they are, today. I think they were, at
that time.
4944 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. The teamsters drive the trucks that you lease to
them?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct. Now, just a moment. Not that I
lease. Let's correct the record.
Mr. Kennedy. Test Fleet.
Mr. HoFFA. Not that I lease.
Mr. Kennedy. Test Fleet.
Mr. HoFFA. Not that I lease.
Mr. Kennedy. That is fine. Test Fleet?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. The company was set up in the name of Mr. Wrape
and then, I believe, the officers and the stockholders originally were
a couple of the assistants, two of the attorneys from Mr. Wrape's
office ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think, maybe, you are right.
Mr. Kennedy. Then the stock was transferred, was it, down to
Tennessee ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you are right.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was the stock transferred to ?
Mr. HoFFA. Josephine Poszywak and Alice Johnson.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Poszywak ?
Mr. HoFFA. My wife is Josephine Poszywak, and Alice Johnson
is Bert Brennen's wife.
Mr. Kennedy, You selected the maiden names of your wives?
Mr. HoFFA. The attorneys advised that.
Mr. Kennedy. Why ?
Mr. HoFFA. For the purpose of not involving them in the lawsuits
that I become involved in as a labor representative.
Mr. Kennedy. They thought it was better ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that was the explanation. I don't recall it,
offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. You got rid of your equipment, as I understand it,
the trucks and trailers that you had from National Equipment Co.
Did you have some difficulty getting trucks and trailers leased to
Commercial Carriers?
Mr. HoFFA. You don't have any difficulty at any time buying trucks
or trailers.
IVIr. Kennedy. Wliere did you get your trucks and trailers ?
Mr. HoFFA. I got them through Commercial Carriers, at the same
discount price everybody else gets them who has trucks working for
Conunercial Carriers.
Mr. Kennedy. So, Commercial Carriers had this difficulty up in
Pontiac, was it ?
Mr. HoFFA. No ; it was not. It was Flint.
Mr. Kennedy. Flint, Mich. Their attorneys set this company up
for your wife and for Bert Brennan's wife, and then they arranged
to get the equipment for you, did they ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Let's straighten the record out. I told you that Jim
Wrape was an attorney. I think you are an attorney. It is my un-
derstanding an attorney can have more than one client. Because
he represents a client other than the second client doesn't necessarily
mean that you should refer to him as the client of the company.
Eather, you should refer to him as the lawyer for Test Fleet.
IMPROPER ACTIVnTE'S IN THE LABOR FIELD 4945
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever pay him, Mr. Hoff a ?
Mr. HoFFA. I, personally, did not pay him, and I don't know
whether or not the coi^^oration did.
Mr. KJENNEDT. Did your wife pay him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Bert Brennan's wife pay him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know. I can get the information, if you de-
sire it.
Mr. Kennedy. So, you got the equipment from Commercial Car-
riers. How were you able to pay for the equipment ?
Mr. HoFFA. Out of earnings, after the downpa^^^ment.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get the downpayment ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe, if I am not mistaken — it is a matter again
of recollection — that it came out of the sale of National Equipment.
Mr. Kennedy. Dividend, I think, of National Equipment?
Mr. HoFFA, No ; I think it was the sale, wasn't it? You must have
it there. I don't remember, offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. And National Equipment Co. had been sold to
whom, again ? The Convertible Leasing Co ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't remember, offhand, whether it was Convertible.
You said it was, and I wouldn't quarrel with it until I check the rec-
ord.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. That was Carney Matheson Co. ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe you are right, but I will check it.
Mr. Kennedy. I think our records show that the $4,000 downpay-
ment was from the dividend. That, actually, the $10,000 you got for
National Equipment Co. didn't come in until sometime later. The
$4,000 that was a downpayment for the trucks that you bought from
Commercial Carriers came from a dividend that you had gotten on
National Equipment Co.
Mr. HoFFA. I would say to you that, wherever it came from, it took
care of the downpayment.
Mr. Kjennedy. Did you have to pay for these trucks right away,
or did they give you a little time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know of anybody that has that much money
that they can pay for trucks immediately. It is a general practice
that you work out a long-term financing arrangement where you can
pay for equipment out of earnings.
Mr. Kennedy. You must have had some books and records that
were kept by Commercial Carriers. Who kept your books and
records ?
Mr. HoFFA. A man by the name of Beidler, I imderstand, kept
the records for the corporation ; Beidler or Bidler. Beidler, I think
maybe it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Where were you able to locate Mr. Beidler ? Was
he in Tennessee ?
Mr. HoFFA. No ; he was in Detroit, I understand.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was Mr. Beidler ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was an accountant.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have any accounts, other than yours?
Mr. HoFFA. I assume he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you also know that he was the accountant for
Commercial Carriers?
4946 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Beidler, for his work, ever get paid out
of Test Fleet?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he get paid the first year ?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand he got some sort of a bonus, Mr. Kennedy,
I don't know. You have the record. If that is what it is, that is
what it is.
Mr. Kennedy. But, for the first 3 years, all of his salary was paid
out of Commercial Carriers, was it not?
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't say that is true.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know of any payment other than the $150
bonus that was paid to Mr. Beidler ?
JNIr. HoFFA. I think that is sufficient, with 10 trucks for no more
work than he would do.
Mr. Kennedy. There was not much work ?
Mr. HoFFA. There wasn't much work for 10 trucks.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any other employees than Mr. Beidler ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not to my knowledge. I have no information. I
can't say for sure.
Mr. Kennedy. How many pieces of equipment did you get from
Comercial Carriers?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't get any, but I believe that Test Fleet, to the
best of my recollection and knowledge, got 10. They didn't get them
from Commercial Carriers, either.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did they get them? ;
Mr. HoFFA. They got them through Commercial Carriers' discount
plan, as all other driver-owners did, and I believe that the banknotes
were signed as any other company would sign banknotes for the
mortgage.
Mr. Kennedy. Who guaranteed the loan that you got from the
bank?
Mr. HoFFA. I think, temporarily, Bert Beveridge did.
Mr. Kennedy. And Bert Beveridge was the president of the Com-
mercial Carriers?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. He guaranteed the loan?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think he guaranteed it. I simply think he
said it would be a good investment.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't he also guarantee the loan made from the
bank?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think he signed it. I don't have that knowl-
edge.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get the loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you, offhand. You must have the infor-
mation. It was in the Hoffman hearings.
Mr. Kennedy Was it from a bank in St. Louis ?
Mr. HoFFA. It could have been. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. Then, through Commercial Carriers, you got j^our
trucks or got your equipment, and then you leased that equipment
back to Commercial Carriers ?
Mr. HoFFA. The tractors, as such ; you are right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4947
Mr. Kennedy. And, during this period of time, after you did that
it was not necessary to have any employees, as I understand.
Mr. HoFFA. The company supplied the employees, as was the
original intention, so they could have better supervision and control of
the operation and, if necessary, have more than one driver drive a
piece of equipment in emergencies.
Mr. Kennedy. Has this been a profitable operation ?
Mr. HoFFA. You have the record. I. think you could say that it
was.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, I am asking you the question.
Mr. HoFFA. Since it is not my company, I can only say that I think
that it was.
Mr. Kennedy. It was. You do not know. Your wife has not let
you know how much money she made ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think I know how much she made.
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately, how much do you think she made
in that company since it was set up ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you, offhand, but a guess. I can give it to
you this afternoon, if I can get it.
Mr. Kennedy. We have some figures here.
Mr. HoFFA. Read them off. Brother.
Mr. Kennedy. November 15, 1949, $4,000 each to Mrs. Hoffa and
Mrs. Brennan in their maiden names. In December of 1950, $15,000
each. In October of 1951, $3,500 each. In July of 1952, $5,000 each.
In December of 1952, $5,000 each. In January of 1954, $10,000 each.
April of 1955, $5,000 each. In June of 1955, $5,000 each.
Was that corporation Test Fleet — does it, also, have another name ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think that today it is called Hobren Corp.
Mr. Kennedy. Hobren Corp.?
Mr. Hoffa. I believe that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. We understand that they, also, in addition to the
moneys that I mentioned, purchased some land. Test Fleet; is that
right.
Mr. Hoffa. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did that land cost?
Mr. Hoffa. I think $20,000, rather than take the dividends.
Mr. Kennedy. So, in addition to what I have mentioned, that is
$5,000 down on October 1, 1955, and $15,000 down in 1956. That
makes a total payment to your wife in her maiden name and Mrs.
Brennan in her maiden name of $125,000.
Mr. Hoffa. Before taxes.
Mr. Kennedy. Does that seem right, before taxes ?
Mr. HoFFxi. Before taxes.
Mr. Kennedy. You have to pay taxes on that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would assume everybody does.
Mr. Kennedy. So, that is through 1956. That is with how much
investment originally ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was an investment, I believe, of $4,000, with a com-
mitment of $50,000 in case the business went wrong, which they would
have to pay. So it was, actually, an investment of $54,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was the commitment to ?
Mr. Hoffa. To the bank.
4948 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES UST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I see. But, actually, the money that was invested
was $4,000, and in the 6-year period
Mr. HoFFA. Well, that isn't true, of course. You talk about actual
money invested. I would like to know where you can ^o out and sign
a note and not call that money invested. I haven't found it yet.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, there was $125,000 in 1956. The actual money
that was put up by Mrs. Hoffa and Mrs. Brennan was $4,000, and a
$50,000 loan that they made from a bank, that was guaranteed by
Mr. Beveridge, of Commercial Carriers ; is that correct ?
Mr. Hoffa. Which was, temporarily, not guaranteed, but which
Mr. Beveridge, if I understand correctly, simply made a statement
to the bank that, in his opinion, it was a good investment, and I do
not believe that you will find any records that Mr. Beveridge ever
signed any notes for any moneys loaned from the bank for this pur-
pose, but the responsibility would have been Josephine Poszy wak's and
Alice Johnson's if the business had not operated successfully and
profitably.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat do you do with this land that you purchase ?
What have you done with that ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, it is a nice hunting camp.
Mr. Kennedy. It is a what ?
Mr. Hoffa. A hunting camp.
Mr. Kennedy. A hunting camp ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes ; very nice.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it for yourself ?
Mr. Hoffa. It is owned by the Test Fleet, rather Hobren, now, and
it is leased to a nonprofit organization at a nominal fee for all of the
employees who want to go up, working for the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat is the nonprofit organization ?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't know the name of it, offhand. It has some
sports title attached to it.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it Lake 13 Hunting and Fishing Club?
Mr. Hoffa. It could be.
Mr. Kennedy. That is a teamsters organization ?
Mr. Hoffa. No ; it is not. It is a group of representatives who work
for the teamsters as individuals, who decided that, since we always
hunt and fish together, and since the property was there, they would
take advantage of the situation and work out such an arrangement.
Mr. Kennedy. So, the Hobren company or corporation does not
receive any rent ?
Mr. Hoffa. No ; that isn't true. I said that they pay a nominal fee,
out of initiation fees, for the upkeep, taxes, and for a nominal return,
I believe, on the investment.
Mr. Kennedy. How much do they pay ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think that each fellow pays $100 a year, and, when
we go up to hunt, we share up the amount of money that it cost and
each one pays that. And if there is any work to do, I may say, also,
that we take off time and go up and do the work.
Mr. Kennedy. So it is about $2,000 a year ?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't know if it is or not. You must have the records.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, our records show it is about $2,000, the rent
that is paid to the Hobren Co.
Mr. Hoffa. It could be.
nvIPBOPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4949
Mr. Ejennedy. This Hobren
Mr. HoFFA. Before you get away from the situation that you men-
tioned a minute ago, I would like to correct your statement in the
record concerning the amount of moneys that were earned.
I have here in front of me a contract which is called the automobile
carrier truckaway agreement. The period is from March 1, 1955, to
February 28. 1961, with the understanding that, after a period of 3
years, we renegotiate wages and certain other conditions. On page 40
there is a proviso in there which is standard for all of the operating
companies that lease equipment. The rental rate on that page is
established, and nobody pays less and sometimes they pay a little
more. Tractors only, 65 percent of the gross. And then it goes on to
talk about, on pages 40 and 41, and 42, 43, and the top of page 44,
the conditions that equipment can be leased.
I would like to have the record show for the Senators, if you please,
that approximately 60 percent of the equipment, to the best of our
estimation, operating for the type operation in this instance, is leased
equipment, either from the drivers or from fleet owners. So, this was
not an unusual arrangement and is common practice, as certain Sena-
tors know who have something to do with trucklines, in the trucking
industry, because the trucking industry does not have the capital
necessary for the outlay of purchasing their own equipment.
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Kennedy ?
Senator Kennedy. On the $50,000 loan, what did you put up
against that?
Mr. HoFFA. The equipment.
Senator Kjennedy. On what basis did you receive the equipment
from the company ?
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon ?
Senator Kjennedy. On what basis did you receive the equipment
from the company ? On a loan, or did you purchase it ?
Mr. HoFFA. The equipment was purchased by securing the mort-
gage, and it was not purchased, if my recollection serves me right,
from the Commercial Carriers, but, rather, it was from the Inter-
national— no ; I think they were Dodgers. I don't want to be held to
that, but I think from a Dodge dealer that they did business with.
Senator Kennedy. What I am trying to get at is the amount of
money that your wife and Mr. Brennan's wife actually put into the
company on their own. I understand they put $4,000 in, which was
the first dividend. What I am wondering is, when the company was
formed, how much money did your wife and Mr. Brennan's wife, of
their own or of yours or Mr. Brennan's, actually was invested? What
was their personal equity ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you will find there were two checks — I don't
want to get held to this, because I don't have it, offhand — maybe I
do; I will take a look. No, I don't have it, offhand. The financial
report will show, and I think the Hoffman hearings will show, that 2
checks, of $1,500 each, and then there was an additional check of $1,000
that was put up for the capital, actual capital cash outlay for this
operation.
Senator Kennedy. That was not a dividend, in other words. That
was your own money that you put into the company ?
4950 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. It is my opinion of what I know about it, and I am
only giving you my opinion and not a fact, that the money came out
of earnings of the other company, Mr. Kemiedy.
Senator Kennedy. Now, Mr. Hoffa, you stated, and I do not know
if I am quoting you correctly, that you did not get any of this money,
that his money was earned by your wife and Mrs. Brennan. Did
you receive some of it or none of it?
Mr. Hoffa. We file a joint return, if that is what you mean, Sena-
tor.
Senator Kennedy. I do mean that. So, actually, you have bene-
fited from this, too, haven't you ?
Mr. Hoffa. If you want to call it that.
Senator Kennedy. Considering the fact that the company supplied,
in a sense, the law3^er, or at least the lawyer worked for the company
and the accountant w^orked for the company, and there was a loan
or, at least, a dividened, and the company supplied the trucks, and
you at the same time represented many of the employees that were
working for the company, do you, as a general principle, believe
that an official of a labor union should have business dealings which
subject him to some of the inferences, at least, which 1 have
gathered — maybe I am incorrect — at a time when they are represent-
ing the employees at the bargaining table with these same employers ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would say that your inference is incorrect, but I
would say that, normally. Senator, I find nothing wrong with a labor
representative having a business or his family having a business that
may be in the same industry that that particular union has organized,
because it has been my experience that if you can be corrupt for a
very small amount of money or a very large amount of money, there
isn't much difference. My record speaks for itself,, and my contracts
speak for themselves, that they are equivalent to anything that has
ever been negotiated in any industry without strikes. Senator.
Senator Kenn>:dy. The only thing I am talking about, Mr. Hoffa,
is the fact that, for a $4,000 investment, a profit of over $125,000 was
made. There certainly was an intimate business relationship between
you and a major employer. I am just wondering whether you, as a
prominent labor leader, feel that it is proper for you to have, or labor
leaders in general to have, such a relationship with men whom they
are bargaining with collectively on behalf of their employees.
Mr. Hoffa. Senator, I will answer that by saying this : that I have
been around a long time, and I know my employers probably better
than most people know their employers who represent employees, and
I have never made it a practice of trying to distinguish employers
from employees other tlian at the bargaining table, and I find nothing
objectionable if an employer is going to lease equipment from a
stranger, to lease it from somebody wlio is not a stranger, providing
there is no strings attached to that particular investment.
However, I notice that the ethical practices committee has placed
certain rules and regulations concerning investments and, as rapidly
as possible, even though I don't agree, I am disposing of everything
that I own except what I will earn from the union, to comply with
the ethical practices rulings.
However, I want to make it clear that, since that rule came down —
and it came down this year, if you will recall — we have been attempt-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4951
ing to sell this particular company. But, the money market being as
tight as it is, it is rather difficult, without taking a loss, to sell at this
particular time.
But, as rapidly as possible, that concern and my other businesses
will be liquidated to the extent that I will be able to say, as some labor
leaders like to say, and I don't, that management is wrong and I can
liave no part of it. I will simply say that, to comply with ethical
practice, I will dispose of any holdings we have outside of my personal
property that I own, to comply with ethical practices rulings, even
though I don't agree with them.
Senator Kennedy. I am glad to hear that, Mr. Hoffa. It is not a
question of all management being wrong. It is just a question of
whetlier a labor leader who is negotiating contracts should have an
intimate business relationship of the kind that you have had with
people whom he is obliged to negotiate with over the bargaining table.
Mr. Hoffa. I probably
Senator Ivennedy. I think that is the reason that the AFL-CIO
ethical practices thought that it involved a conflict of interest and
should not be permitted.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, Senator Kennedy, I would say to you that, if a
person owned a controlling interest in a business, I would believe with-
out question, you would not need that rule to find that it was wrong.
But I believe that, if there is uniformity of payment for what the par-
ticular equipment is leased for, and the contracts speak for themselves
in the matter of handling grievances, in the matter of keeping the
equalization of wages in line with other industries, it should not be
construed as being some sort of an illegal operation or an untouchable
operation, because it is my firm belief as a labor leader that, if you
know the business that you are negotiating in, and if you have some
touch of responsibility, you will be in a better position at the bargain-
ing table to get more for your men when it comes time to bargain.
My experience of knowing what can be produced out of trucks, by
leasing equipment and paying union wages, has saved our drivers
throughout the entire central conference from having any strikes and
be able to get at the same time the prevailing wage scales, prevailing
increases, in many instances much higher and better fringe benefits,
than the average union that takes the position that they don't want to
know what the employers' business is about.
Senator Kennedy. The ethical practices committee of the AFL-
CIO took the opposite position, Mr. Hoffa, and I think for very good
reason. But I am glad to hear that you are going in that category to
go along with them.
The Chaieman. All right, Mr. Counsel, proceed.
Are there any other questions by any member of the committee at
this time ?
Senator Ervin. I would like to ask one.
The Chairman. Senator Ervin.
Senator Ervin. Why was the stock in this corporation taken in the
maiden name of your wife rather than her married name?
Mr. Hoffa. On the advice of counsel. Senator. In case there was a
lawsuit, they thought there was less possibility to having it attached,
and I am always subject to lawsuits.
4952 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ervin. So counsel advised yon not to use your wife's correct
name ?
Mr. HoFFA, Not her correct name, but to use her maiden name, sir.
Senator Ervin. Your wife generally does not use her maiden name
in your social contacts with people since her marriage, does she?
Mr. HoFFA. No, but I understand in business it is not unusual to use
a maiden name rather than the married name for the same purpose I
have outlined. Senator.
Senator Ervin. Frankly, I practiced law and I had a lot to do with
forming corporations. It is tlie first instance that has come under
my notice where that kind of a course of action was taken. It is more
difficult to trace the ownership of a stock in a corporation if the stock
is placed in the maiden names of married women than it would be if
the stock had been placed in the married name, is it not?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I would like to say to you that my members
knew at all times what I was doing, and approved of it in open meet-
ings, sir.
Senator ER^^x. I believe you haven't answered my question. My
question was if it wasn't more difficult to trace the ownership of the
stock in a corporation if the stock was placed in the names, the maiden
names, of married women rather than in their married names.
Mr. HoFFA. Today, when you file an income tax, I don't think you
could hide anything.
Senator Ervin. You still haven't answered my question, Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't know, sir. I don't laiow the answer to
your question other than to say that there was no ulterior motive
for the purpose of putting it in their names.
Senator Ervin. I thought you have said that it was less likely that
the stock would be attached in any suit against them if it was listed
in their maiden names rather than their married names.
Mr. HoFFA. You are correct, sir.
Senator Ervin. And that is the reason it was done. In other words,
it was done to conceal the ownership of the stock from the ones who
might happen to be creditors of the women.
Mr. HoFFA. That could possibly happen. Senator.
Senator Ervhst. So that is no ulterior motive ?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand, sir.
Senator Ervin. That is all.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions by any member of
the committee ?
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator McNamara,
Senator McNamara. I would like to ask the witness, and perhaps
counsel would have to answer: Do we have the assumed name law
still on the books in Michigan ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, there is an assumed law in Michigan.
Senator McNamara. Did you register?
Mr. Fitzgerald. That was not, as I imderstand it. Senator Mc-
Namara, a Michigan corporation. That does not cover a corporation.
It merely covers partnership or someone who as an individual wants
to do business under an assumed name.
Senator McNamara. I have had to go to the county building and
register the name of a corporation because it was an assumed name.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4953
Incidentally, it happened to be the Michigan Old Age Pension
League. We will clear that up now.
Senator Ervin. I have one more question. Did the lawyer tell you
why he selected Tennessee out of the 48 States in which to obtain a
corporate charter for a corporation that was not to function in Tennes-
see but which was to function in Michigan ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Ervin. That would also make it difficult to trace the matter,
wouldn't it?
Mr. HoFFA, I believe it would also be necessary, and I don't want
to be held to this, I think it would also be necessary to be registered
in Michigan as a company because of the sales tax and so forth.
Senator Erviist. Possibly so. I believe it might be.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe so.
Senator Ervin. Was the stock originally issued to your wife and
her associate or was it originall}^ issued to the lawyer and then trans-
ferred by him to them ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe Mr. Kennedy can probably answer better
than I can, but I will hazard what I think. I believe that Test
Fleet was at all times in the two women's names.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Kennedy. Not originall3^
Mr. HoFFA. It wasn't?
Mr. Kennedy. It was originally set up in the name of Mr. Wrape
and two of his assistants.
Mr. HoFFA. How long did it last ? A week or so ?
Mr. Kennedy. At the time of the corporation, when it was set up
in Tennessee.
Senator ER\nN. You know ordinarily when a corporate charter is
issued that the names of the subscribers to the stock are named in
the newspapers as a matter of news, and that when the corporation
is set up, as detailed by Mr. Kennedy, and the stock is transferred
later to other people, that that is another method which is resorted to,
or rather, another method which is calculated, to prevent disclosure
of true ownership of corporate stock.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I can agree with you, but when you talk about
my name as Hoffa, nothing can be secret in Detroit, because the news-
papers publish very rapidly the fact.
Senator Ervin. But newspapers do not discuss and talk about your
wife under her maiden name, do they ?
Mr. HoFFA. Unfortunately they do ; yes.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. I am going to deviate a little bit for the moment
from the questioning which has been going on. This has some re-
lationship to it, but not directly,
I should judge, Mr. Hoffa, that as a result of your several activities
in which you have been engaged, you have something to do with small
business ?
Mr. HoFFA. We have many small-business men. Senator, in our
union; yes, sir.
Senator I-v-es. I would like to reconcile that in a way with a state-
ment attributed to you. Of course, I don't know that you ever made
4954 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
it. The statement appeared in the press under date of March 3, 1956,
supposedly made in Detroit, in which you said, or were quoted as
saying:
The future of labor-management relations is big labor and big business.
There is no room for the small business or the small union. That is unfortu-
nate but true.
Do you still think that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, that came out, I believe, of the St. Louis
Post-Dispatch. I think a fellow named
Senator Ives. You certainly have a high I. Q. You are given great
credit for that. If you can spot that that way, you are doing a good
job.
Mr. HoFFA. A fellow named McCullough wrote the article.
Senator Ives. That is true, too.
Mr. HoFFA. I would say to you that it is an absolute misquote of
what I said. If you are interested. Senator, I will try to refresh
my recollection and tell you what happened.
Senator I\^ES. No, I am not interested in what happened. I am
interested in what you believe in today.
Do you really think that the day of small business is over ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I want to say this to you, that my experience
has been that with the ever-increasing cost of replacement of equip-
ment, the ever-increasing cost of expansion, it is making it daily more
impossible for small-business men to be able to stay in business or
to get loans from financial institutions. Unfortunately, and I again
use those words, unfortunately, I see every time a large supermarket
or a large department store built in a shopping center area, I see the
surrounding merchants who have been there from their fathers to
their grandfathers to the present people, gradually going out of busi-
ness. It is unfortunate. But we must recognize, I suppose, that
everybody has a right of expansion, has a right to be as big or as little
as they want. We have to deal with it on the basis as we find it.
I would say that the small-business men in this country, unless the
Government aids them more than they have in the past, by making it
possible to have financial aid loaned to them from the Government,
are going to have a terrific time to stay in business, Senator.
Senator Ives. Then your observation regarding big busmess and
big labor is more or less correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. Unfortunately through no fault of ours, I think it is
rapidly going into that effect. Senator.
Senator Iv-es. And I presume in that connection you would be in
favor of big labor ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, you must meet conditions as you find them to
be able to protect your members in a way that they do not necessarily
use long, drawn-out strikes that can be forced on to them by being ill
prepared to handle the situation to the point that it will affect the
interest of moneyed people in big business before they make a settle-
ment.
Senator I^^s. In that connection, I want to carry this one step fur-
ther.
Again I can only bring to your attention things that I have seen
stated concerning you. I don't know them to be facts.
I would like your observation now. It has been reported that you,
yourself, are endeavoring, or will endeavor, assuming you are elected
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4955
president of the international in September — ^you know now what is
coming; I can see you are anticipating it — to effect a merger of some
kind or other among all the transportation unions in the country.
That includes not only yourselves, the teamsters, but it includes the
longshoremen.
We had Captain Bradley here before us the other day, and he told
us about the relationship, a very pleasant one, between you. Captain
Bradley, and his organization. It includes Harry Bridges on the
Pacific coast, according to reports I have seen.
I am going to inquire of you how you stand on this before I get
through.
Mr. HoFFA. All right, sir.
Senator Ives. It includes the railroad brotherhoods, and it includes
the employees of the airlines, I don't know if there is anything else
to it or not. But that pretty well covers transportation industry in
the United States.
Now, what you got to say about it ?
Mr, HoFFA. Senator, I have an answer. Again I say that this in-
terview took place in San Francisco, I believe, 3 weeks ago. Again
I say that due to the lack of knowledge of labor unions and the urgen-
cy to have spectacular news rather tlian news which is factual, the
story was misquoted, and here is the story :
I do believe, and I don't apologize for it, that it is going to be neces-
sary for transportation unions to form some kind of a council so that
they can exchange ideas, and so that they can keep abreast of the
times and where they have a dual operation, such as what is known
today as piggy-back operation, where trailers which were previously
hauled by trucks, are now being hauled by rail to a given point and
trucked farther on, what is known as fishy-back, which is the trans-
porters, with a top placed on them, where they are again hauling our
trailers by water to various ports and where we pick up the trailer
at a port and go by tractor to the given point of destination, where
the railroads have dock workers which work in comparison to the
dock workers of truck terminals, and where even the railroads now,
under the authority of the ICC, which you gentlemen granted them
the right to do, are nov/ competing with our truckers that are strictly
certified public carriers.
So I believe, Senator, that to protect the wage scales of the truck
drivers, the dock workers, the checkers, of the United States, that we
represent in the teamsters union, that it is going to be necessary to
form some kind of a loose-knit council if for no other purpose except
to exchange ideas in an endeavor to keep from competing with each
other on the questions of wa^es and fringe benefits.
Senator Ives. On that basis, Mr, Hofla, I would like to ask you a
question: Would you endeavor to have industrywide bargaining
through such a council? I mean industrywide in the sense that it
would include all those industries I have stated, I have named four
of the main industries in the country,
Mr. HoFFA, I would think that that would be an impractical situa-
tion.
Senator Ives. You wouldn't try to do it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it would be very impractical, and I do not think
that I would even dare suggest to the gentlemen wlio operate those
unions that we should have anything to say about their bargaining.
89330— 57— pt. 13 3
4956 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Iv'es. Again I want to ask you a question in that connec-
tion. Of course, I realize, as many people do, that it is virtually im-
possible to stop industrywide bargaining. You really can't legislate it
out of existence. Mr. John L. Lewis demonstrated what would happen
in a situation like that.
But I want to ask you this : Do you realize what the situation is if
you liave that kind of a council running the transportation industry
of the country that way, the sympathetic attitude you will have toward
one another, and it would be sympathetic, naturally it would be, and
I wouldn't blame you one way or another.
Do you realize what would happen? You could tie up the whole
United States in a strike. Have you ever thought of that ?
Mr. HoFFA. May I answer you. Senator?
Senator Ives. I wish you would, because it has bothered me no
end since I saw your statement reported.
Mr. HoFFA. I want to say to you. Senator, that there is no more
danger of a nationwide tieup of transportation because of the human
element involved in it, and there is — I wouldn't say there is, but there
is more probability that transportation could be tied up by a strike
of heavy industry which would indirectly affect transportation on a
far greater basis than trying to coordinate all of the big unions that
are in transportation.
As an example. Senator, when the steel industry goes down, we can
figure in my own particular local, we can figure from 1,000 to 2,000
drivers will not be working while those steel mills are down.
When General Motors goes down, I don't know how many thou-
sands of our people within 48 hours find themselves out of work.
If, as I have read, there is a likelihood of joint collective bargaining
in heavy industry, that joint collective bargaining in heavy industry
could more effectively shut down transportation, than we could shut
it down, for the following reasons :
As you probably know, there are unregulated carriers hauling
commodities that do not need the approval of an ICC permit, ex-
empted commodities. Most of those trucks are owned by individuals
and many of them are not organized.
In addition to that, if there was such a strike, which is very unlikely,
as you are talking about, almost so far out of our lifetime that it
wouldn't ever happen, industry itself could put their own equipment,
with their own unions, into operation and such a strike would be
impractical and impossible to control.
I don't think it would ever happen. Senator, from the standpoint
of what you are suggesting.
Senator Ives. Let me point out one thing. I come from New York,
as you know. I^t me point out one thing you could do to New York
City in your alliance with the longshoremen's association there, the
ILA. You could paralyze New York City almost overnight if you
struck. If you didn't allow any milk to come in — ^you have a milk
strike up there now which started in at midnight last night. It may
be a wildcat strike, but I don't know what it is. You have one,
anyway.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it is authorized.
Senator I^^s. You think it is off ?
Mr, HoFFA. I think it is authorized.
Senator Ives. Well, I hope it is off.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4957
You could paralyze it. You couldn't get any vegetables or fruits
into the city. You couldn't move anything. You couldn't do any-
thing at tlie docks. You couldn't do a thing. New York City would
be paralyzed if you two got together and had a strike in New York.
That effect alone on the United States would be tremendous, its
effect on the Nation.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I wonder, did you ever stop to think of the
other side of the coin ?
Senator Ives. Yes, I have.
Mr. HoFFA. That is as to why workers who join labor organiza-
tions should not have the same right as management who form asso-
ciations and alliances between themselves in regards to water and rail
transportation.
Senator Ives. Let me tell you something, Mr. Hoffa, on that. I
am no more in favor of monopoly in one place than I am in another
place, unless monopoly is regulated as it is in the utility industry, the
railroads, and things of that kind. I am just plain opposed to monop-
oly, and that is what you are talking about.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I am not talking about a monopoly, because,
as I stated, we are not trying to organize all of the trades that deal
in transportation into one big union, by no stretch of the imagination.
I simply suggested that for the purpose, which we could do today, for
the purpose of exchanging views, for the purpose of being able to
get out of the competitive stage, that we are in today in transportation,
of where one union in one instance can take volumes of freight be-
cause of reduced freight rates, which is caused by a lesser wage scale
as against the other one from time to time until our contracts catch
up with each other.
I am looking out for the benefit of the workers, and I recognize
my responsibility to the general public. I think my record speaks for
itself. Senator.
I have been the chairman of the Central States Drivers Negotiating
Council for a number of years; I think since 1939. We have the
finest relationship between our employers and our union as any unions
have. We have our fights and our quarrels, but we resolve them with-
out getting on the street, only in a couple of instances since then.
I believe that the more power there is concentrated into a labor or-
ganization, the more responsible and careful the unions must be not
to lose the complete power of having the right to have a union.
Therefore, I do not believe, sir, that there is any danger of this
country suffering from anything in the way of exchanging views, in
the way of coordinating our activities, unless — and I recognize what
you will probably say — unless some irresponsible person was to get
at the head of the organization.
However, I may also say to you that you gentlemen foresaw that,
and that you passed a cooling-off period of 80 days under the Taft-
Hartley law. During that 80-day period, the President could appoint
a committee and any attempt to have a strike of that proportion I am
quite sure would be brought to the Congress of the United States
attention and it would never happen.
Senator Ives. As a matter of fact, Mr. Hoffa, we have had that
80-day period exercised at least once where the dockers were concerned
and they waited for the end of the cooling-off period and then they
struck. You probably remember that.
4958 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
So there is a limit to the cooling-off period. That in itself doesn't
do much good in the long-run if people are determined to strike. Don't
get me wrong. I am not opposed to striking. I think the right to
strike is basic in our American philosophy. I am for the worker.
So don't get me wrong on that. My whole record will demonstrate
that, too.
Mr. HoFTA. I know your record, sir.
Senator Ives. All right. So I think you and I are on the same
ground on that basis. But I am disturbed about this angle I am
talking about.
Mr. HoFFA. I think. Senator, there is one thing you are overlook-
ing which must be very clearly indicated to the audience that is listen-
ing, and that is that labor leaders are not the judge of whether or
not there shall be a strike. I know a lot of people disagree with that.
But it must be recognized that unless you can get the employees of
the employers and members of our union to believe in what you are
proposing to them, no labor leader can have a successful strike. I
think you realize that.
(At this point Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
Senator Ives. In that connection, do you believe in a secret strike
ballot?
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly do.
Senator Ives. You do? And you would be willing to have that
in the law ? That has been agitated right and left and we have been
trying to work something out that would be workable, and we haven't
worked anything out yet.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe placing it in the law would do any more
good than it would in writing it in the Taft-Hartley, in many in-
stances. But I believe as in our constitution, if you will read it you
will find it, that we do take a secret ballot prior to having a strike,
and it takes two-thirds of those people in a meeting to reject a wage
proposal by the employers.
Senator Ives. A secret strike ballot of the kind I am talking
about would have to have supervision by somebody representing
government.
Mr. HoFFA. I may say to you, and Senator McNamara is here and
will know what I am talking about, that in the State of Michigan,
we have a law dealing with intrastate members, purely, that requires
a 10-day notice and a strike vote prior to calling a strike. I would
say to you that in every instance where there was a strike called under
that particular law, it could have been called just as easy without a
vote as with a vote, because the issues that were presented to the
members would determine whether or not there would or would not
be a strike. I think you realize that.
Senator Ives. I do not want to take any more time. I thank you.
I may have more to ask you later on today.
The Chairman. Does any other member have a question before
we proceed ?
Senator Mundt. I would like to follow up a little on what Senator
Ives has been saying.
You say that you believe there should be a secret vote on a strike.
Do you also agree that for the protection of the public, there should
be an impartial board or committee or group counting the ballots
and evaluating them and reporting them ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4959
Mr. HoFFA. I will say to you, Senator, that the more complicated
you make it, the more agitated you make the worker, and the worker
believes, I think, from my experience, that he is competent and
capable of taking care of his own business, because when there is a
strike called, it is the worker that suffers the loss in earnings as well
as the management suffering the loss of profits.
Senator Mundt. That is right. I have based my question on the
results of a great many letters coming to my office from people I
don't know, who tell me they are union members, who have implied
that it would be useful to them if they could have the assurance,
when they take a vote on a strike, that it is counted by somebody who
is impartial, so that they know that they get an honest count.
If you are going to have the secret ballot, it seems to me that you
intend to act on the basis of what the voters prescribe in their voting.
I see nothing wrong with having the votes counted by an impartial
board if, for no other reason than to satisfy. No. 1, the worker; and,
No. 2, the public that the vote has been counted by an impartial
person.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, if you would add an addition to that, I would
agree to you, and that is that once the majority of the workers vote
to strike, you likewise pass a law that the employer can't hire strike
breakers to break the majority vote of the workers.
Senator Mundt. Well, I don't know how you could pass a law like
that, frankly, because those who vote against it are still Americans,
and I suppose they have a right to their opinion as well as the fellow
who votes for the strike.
Mr. HoFFA. I am not talking about, sir, the employees one way or
the other in the vote. I am talking about people who did not work
for the employer prior to the time of the strike, if such took place.
Senator Mundt. You would permit them to hire the ones who
voted in the negative ?
Mr. HoFFA. The person who voted always has the prerogative, if
he previously worked, of using his own good conscience as to what
he wants to do.
Senator Mundt. I certainly would not want to deny him any more
than I would want to deny the fellow who voted for the strike the
right to strike; and the fellow who voted against it, if he wants to run
the hazard, certainly has the right to work during the strike.
Mr. HoFFA. I think if you would just pass the law that they
couldn't hire additional employees to break a strike after the workers
voted, that you would be doing a great service to the working people
of America.
Senator Mundt. It is something to think about, because we are
obviously in these hearings to find out what new labor legislation is
needed, if any.
In that connection, I was intrigued by another statement you made.
I believe you said that the more power a labor union has, the better
for the labor union and I presume you imply the better for the public.
Mr. HoFFA. Necessarily power that is gained through having a
larger union, as I stated before, could be more quickly taken away
from you if you abuse the power.
Senator Mundt. Would you favor legislation which would tend
to make the responsibility of the labor union commensurate with the
power that it has ?
4960 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I may be the only one in labor who will make
this statement, I don't know, because I have been criticized pretty
good for making it, but I will make it here.
I believe that once a union signs a contract, it is just as responsible
as management to live up to that contract, and if they violate it, they
ought to be penalized.
Senator Mundt. That is a good statement.
I think it is a pretty sound axiom to follow in all areas of activity,
whether political or economic, industrial or labor, that where there
is power there has to be responsibility.
Mr. HoFFA. There is no question about it.
Senator Mundt. I am glad to have you associate yourself with that
axiom.
Mr. HoFFA. I can expect, Senator, this afternoon or tomorrow, some
questions concerning that statement, concerning what I see on the
board. I will answer those questions, too.
Senator Mundt. I will probably have some at that time.
Mr. HoFFA. Thank you, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Goldwater.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Hotfa, I want to pursue just a little bit
further, because you have been cooperative in answering, the subject
that Senator Ives proposed.
I think that even you recognize that if you follow through this idea
of yours of bringing all of the transportation unions into either one
being in fact, or association, for the exchange of ideas, as you men-
tioned, that there is the danger of the wrong man heading it at some
time, and the wrong man could exercise the power to strike.
Would that danger not exist even without the wrong man ?
Let us take, for example, a strike being called by the airlines.
Mr. HoFFA. By the who, sir ?
Senator Goldwater. By the airlines. By the airline employees.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Senator Goldwater. It would then follow that no other union
would cross its picket lines, so you would, in effect, tie up all of trans-
portation if you carry that far enough, particularly if your organiza-
tion has been successful in getting together.
Now, recognizing that you have two sources of danger, one the ob-
servance of the picket line by all unions, and, two, which I think is a
greater danger, the fact that at some time when the responsible labor
leadership is not in existence and an irresponsible man occupies the
chair that you are seeking to occupy, we could have a rather chaotic
condition in this country.
Because of those facts, would you think it wise, too, that the Congress
consider placing unions under antimonopoly or antitrust laws, the
same as we place the large corporations of this country ?
Mr, HoFFA. I certainly do not. There is certainly a difference be-
tween human beings working for a living, trying to use their best
coordinated effort to gain whatever they are rightfully entitled to,
than there is a combination of industrialists getting together for the
sole purpose of controlling prices and trying to make a larger profit.
Senator Goldw\4ter. I can agree w4th you that there is a philo-
sophical difference between a man seeking to better his working con-
IMPROPER ACTIVmES. IN THE LABOR FIELD 4961
ditions and a corporation seeking to control the production, the price,
and the availability of a commodity. But let us recognize facts as
facts. Labor makes up the largest part of the cost of anything we do
today.
If a person or a union has absolute control, and say, just to make it
a hypothetical question, one man or a small group of men have abso-
lute control over the wage scales of an entire industry, such as the
trucking industry, and the wrong group were heading it, could not
that group do just as much damage to the consumers of the country as,
let us say, for example, X corporation who would control all of the
acetate yarn production of the country ?
Mr. HoFFA. Sir, my answer would be in your particular State, a
situation exists today which shows the necessity of an organization
having a coordinated effort in an attempt to protect its members from
an organized group of employers in trying to destroy that particular
union.
I have here, and I am not going to take the time to read it, but I will
leave a copy with you with your permission, a letter of July 18, from
a group of employers in your State who have banded together de-
liberately for the purpose of destroying the teamsters' organization
and refusing to live up to
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Goldwater. Are you sure that is my State, Arizona ?
Mr. HoFFA. Excuse me, sir. I thought you were Senator Curtis.
Senator Goldwater. You compliment me.
Mr. HoFFA. Excuse me, sir.
Senator Goldwater. I can assure you that the relationship in my
State between the teamsters and employers is a very pleasant one. I
couldn't believe that any group of employers in Arizona would try to
destroy your union, or, as far as that goes, any unions.
I did want to get an answer back from you, and I know you are
honest in your convictions, as to the advisability of placing unions
under antimonopoly or antitrust laws.
I say that because I am interested in protecting not only the public
but the union member and management as well. The time could well
come, and if you think tliis through I think you will agree, that if a
situation existed in this country where one union controlled all of the
people involved in such a gigantic undertaking as transportation, and
anything happened in the way of a strike that tied up this country
that the Congress would act in a much more violent way than they
would if the laws of the country provided control of that situation.
I do not think that you would find it would work to your hardship
any more, probably, than the big corporations have found that anti-
monopoly laws have worked to their disadvantage.
Mr. HoFFA. I have to respectfully disagree with you, and I again
have to say that I do not believe the monopoly laws should api^ly to
laboring people, because the
Senator Goldwater. I am not talking about laboring people. I am
talking about the organizations.
Mr. HoFFA. Laboring people are organizations. Labor organiza-
tions cannot survive without liaving members.
Senator Goldwater. I agree with you on that, but laboring people
belonging to an organization is one thing. The organization acting
is another thing.
4962 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR KELD
Mr. HoFFA. It is the same thing, sir.
(At this point, Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Goldwater. You can draw the same line in stockholders of
a big corporation. They are stockholders because it benefits them.
What the corporation does is not always of particular concern to them
ar long as they give benefits in the form of dividends. It is the same
way with your membership. The members of your union, if it were
on a voluntary basis, they would be members of your union because
you produced good benefits for them and what the top level does is
not of concern to them.
But when the top level moves to hurt the entire country, I cannot
see the difference between the organization as a union and the organi-
zation as a corporation, when both of them have the opportunity of
doing harm to the country under wrong management.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I would say this: I will restate my original
objection, but I would say to you, that I believe that the American
people who belong to the trade labor movement, and those who do not
belong who we are attempting to get into our organization, will be
the answer, in any event, whether you pass a law or don't pass a law,
as to how they want their labor unions to run.
If you should pass such a law, it would be my personal opinion that
it would only be a matter of time by the rules laid down which would
prevent the average union member from getting what he is rightfully
entitled to, it would only be a matter of time that there would be
candidates selected who would not believe in that philosophy, and
would attempt to change the law, because I do not believe that you can
control, by law, on a monopoly basis, a union without indirectly say-
ing, or directly saying, to its members, that "You are not allowed to
assist each other, and you are at the mercy of the employer to be able
to destroy your union."
I don't think you want that and I don't think the American people
would accept it for any long period of time, if those rules were placed
on the union people, and the nonunion people, of this country.
Senator Goldw\a.ter. Mr. Hoffa, I do not think you quite understand
what I am getting at in the way of antimonopoly legislation.
There would be nothing in those laws, and I am sure everybody here
would make certain of that, that would prevent organization, that
would prevent the normal functioning of a union or labor organiza-
tion. But those laws would be established to prevent exactly what the
laws were established to prevent in big corporations. In other words,
the control of a segment of our economy or a segment of our society.
We have to forget in this argument the individual — I am talking
about the bigness of a unit, whether it be a corporation or whether
it be a labor organization.
The individual you suggest through democratic processes might not
do this. But I can see, and you can see, too, the dangers of one man
being able to incite these members into doing pretty much what he
wants to do, or ignoring them because of the sheer power that he holds
as being the head of, let us say, an economic unit such as yours that
has about a million and a half members, and if you expanded to these
others, might include, just as a rough guess, say, two to two and a
quarter million people. But those two and a quarter million people
would absolutely control the economy of the country.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 4963
I do not see any difference, and I know we are not going to get
either one of us to change our minds in this argument, and I will
desist after this, I cannot see any difference in the power that can be
held in the hands of John Smith, a labor leader, or John Smith, the
president of the biggest corporation in the country, each of whom
controls a necessary part of American life.
I think it would be much wiser for the heads of American labor
to sit down now with Members of Congress and discuss this whole
problem, not on the idea that Congress is out to destroy the union
movement but on the idea, actually, that this kind of legislation might,
in the future, save the union movement.
The American people will not tolerate the kind of violence that this
combined power suggests. I would personally much rather see laws
on the books to protect from the monopolistic dangers of a large move-
ment, regardless of who it is, than to see the Congress become riled up
and pass bad legislation at the moment.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I can only make one comment and I will also
stop talking about it.
My comment would be to the effect that the American worker is
much smarter than people give him credit for.
Senator Goldwait^r. I will agree with that.
Mr. HoFFA. And that the American worker would be the first to
sense, in my opinion, the dangers of having a majority of the people
in other unions be penalized by their actions in regards to having
such a giant organization, as you are visualizing, controlling any seg-
ment of industry in this country. However, I don't think you are
unaware of the fact that there are transcontinental trucklines today.
Those transcontinental trucklines start from Seattle and go up to
North Bergen. They go all the way from L. A., and Frisco into
Chicago.
There are two men in the cab and the truck never stops.
I don't think that you believe that a driver coming from Los Angeles
into Chicago should get less money than a driver running from Chi-
cago to Los Angeles, and because those two unions got together or the
number of unions necessary to prevent that, that we would necessarily
be creating a monopoly in the sense of monopoly as has been known in
industry.
Senator Goldwater. In your own industry, the trucking industry, I
would agree with you. But if that were to be extended to the striking
power, the inherent power of numbers, to cover all transportation,
which, in turn, could control the economy of this country, then I would
say definitely that it would be a monopoly.
Now, whether or not you or any other labor leader ever used that
monopoly to the disadvantage of the country would be up to you.
If you use that monopoly at the bargaining table, that is one thing.
But to use it to advance a political theory or an economy theory is en-
tirely another thing. I think that actually talking about it now, ex-
tending this kind of a conversation to include all labor leaders, and
Government, we possibly can come up with the answer in the form
of legislation that will prevent the things happening that you do not
want to have happen and that I do not want to happen.
We both recognize that it can happen.
Mr. HoFFA. When you separate the political from the economic,
you and I could have a different discussion, because I do not believe
4964 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IIST THE LABOR FIELD
that it is the original intention of hibor organizations to try and con-
trol any individual group of political powers in this country for their
own determination as to what to do with it.
Senator Goldwater. Of course, I agree
Mr. HoFFA. So I am not suggesting, Senator, that we put together
a combination, even in an advisory capacity, to be able to say that we
are for this party, this candidate, or the other party or the other can-
didate. I am not suggesting that at all, sir.
Senator Goldw^a.ter. Mr. HofFa, we have labor leaders in this
country today, labor leaders who are not particularly friendly to
you, labor leaders who, I am sure, would like to gain control of an
organization like the teamsters, who do not think like that. If those
individuals were successful in getting control of your unions and
expanded this to include the entire transportation field, then I think
you can see the dangers immediately of what I am talking about.
Mr. HoFFA. Maybe better than you can, Senator.
Senator Goldwater. I am certainly glad to hear you say that.
Mr. HoFFA. Maybe better than you can, because I have just about
surmised the situation if certain people controlled transportation,
plus other industries that are now organized, which they are desper-
ately trying to do, using every medium of advertisement to the gen-
eral public that they can use, to try and destroy, to try and, if possible,
take over without the voting authority of the members, certain parts
of the labor organization. I, for one, am not unaware of what is
happening in this country, I don't propose as one, either, and I have
had my fights in the past. Senator, on this question, I don't propose
as one person to become involved in a situation to where anybody is
going to call me into a room and tell me, without talking to my mem-
bers, "This is what you are going to do"' or, "This is what you are
not going to do."
My experience is w'hen you endorse a candidate on that basis, you
just w^ent out of business.
Senator Goldwater. Well, Mr. Hoffa, just to wind this up, I think
we both recognize that in the writing in the clouds today there is an
individual who would like to see that happen in this country. I do
not like to ever suggest to let you and him fight, but for the good of
the union movement I am very hopeful that your philosophy prevails.
Mr. HoFFA. I assure you that the American people will accept my
philosophy and not the one of the other.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, I think this has been a very
interesting and enlightening discussion. However, I think it was
based on a strawman.
When we get to the consideration of legislation in this field, cer-
tainly we are going to have to recognize at the outset that we are
dealing with a profit organization or a profit corporation against a
nonprofit corporation.
Actually, the proper relationship would be unions, in the trucking
industry, with the trucking association. They are both nonprofit
organizations. The trucking association, as such, is a nonprofit
organization.
Mr. Hoffa. You are right.
Senator McNamara. This is a fair comparison.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4965
If you are going to pass legislation, if you are going to make laws
to control nonprofit organizations, you are getting into a pretty tender
area.
Nonprofit organizations include not only trucking associations but
associations of manufacturers, chambers of commerce, associations
of lawyers and doctors, associations of educators, associations of re-
ligious groups. I do not know how you are going to pass laws in this
great nonprofit organization field for just one group of these people
without passing them for all of them.
I think it would be most unfair for the United States Government
to take a position on the side of the trucking association as against
the unions involved in the industry. I will forever resist it. I do
not care whether you and Senator Goldwater agree or not.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, does anyone else on the committee
wish to ask some questions ?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. We were discussing, Mr. Hoffa, the matter of
strikes, strike votes and so forth.
Mr. Hoffa. Strikes; yes.
Senator Mundt. You say you have been around a long time. You
must have been doing pretty good. You look like a young man to me.
Mr. Hoffa. For 25 years, henator.
Senator Mundt. I would like to ask you this question : How many
strikes in areas under your leadership have been called by strike
votes since you have been around ?
Mr. Hoffa. Do you mean secret strike votes ?
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. Hoffa. Our organization pays at the end of the second week
$15 a week strike benefits as long as the strike lasts. Unless there is
a secret strike vote taken, we do not pay the benefit. So when they
send in their application for the right to strike, they must designate
the fact that they have had a secret vote.
I would assume, from what I have saw of the applications, in the
majority of instances, the vast majority of instances, there has been
secret votes taken, sir.
Senator Mundt. Let us put it the other way. How many times,
to your best recollection, have the voters rejected a strike by a secret
ballot?
Mr. Hoffa. Very rarely.
Senator Mundt. Very rarely ?
Mr. Hoffa. Because you do not put the vote to your members
unless you are sure you will win the vote. You must realize this,
that they have a right of acceptance prior to a strike vote, and if the
contract is agreeable to the members you could never get them to
strike even though you talked for a strike.
Senator Mundt, You say that in the biggest percentage of cases,
therefore, when you submit a proposal to strike to the voters, they
have voted to strike?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct, sir.
Senator Mundt. Have they ever, to the best of your recollection,
voted not to strike?
Mr. Hoffa. I have had it happen to me, sir.
4966 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. You have had it happen to you?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Senator Mundt. What percentage of time would you say?
Mr. HoFFA. Very rarely.
Senator Mundt. One time?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I would say probably a dozen or more. I have
got surprises.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
All right, Mr. Counsel, have you any other questions?
Mr. I^NNEDY. I hate to take you back from being a labor union
leader to a businessman
Mr. HoFFA. Go right back. Don't worry about it.
Mr. Kennedy. On Test Fleet, what kind of cars has Test Fleet?
Mr. HoFFA. Cadillac.
Mr. Kennedy. They always carry Cadillacs?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. That is my understanding.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat kind are the best cars?
Mr. HoFFA. Cadillacs.
Mr. Kennedy. You are always able to get Cadillacs?
Mr. HoFFA. Because the equipment is assigned to that particular
division.
Mr. Kennedy. And your company always gets Cadillacs ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not my company, my wife's. And so do all of the indi-
viduals who haul Cadillacs out of Cadillac, which are built and hauled
by truck in our district.
Mr. Kennedy. Financially you have an interest in it?
Mr. HoFFA. Financially I don't have an interest in it, other than
suggested by your brother, that I may have a joint return of my in-
come tax.
Mr. Kennedy. Does your wife separate the money that she gets
from this company and doesn't let you use it?
Mr. HoFFA. You know that is impractical and so do I. My wife
takes some of my money and I take some of hers.
Mr. I^JENNEDY. You do get some of the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't agree with you. I think I get sufficient money
out of my salaries to maintain my family the way I want to live, and
I do not need any part of my wife's moneys to be able to support my
family on the basis that I desire to support them.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you segregate it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I told you I filed a return. I answered the Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. Does it go in a special bank account ?
Mr. HoFFA. It does not.
Mr. Kennedy. So that it is commingled funds ; is it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. And there is a difference between me being able to earn
sufficient moneys to be able to support my family and what my wife,
without you saying that I take part of my wife's moneys to be able
to support myself or my family, because that is not a true statement.
Mr. Kennedy. What other companies carry Cadillacs, just Cadil-
lacs, other than yours ?
Mr. HoFFA. F. J. Boltell Co., which has brokers also.
Mr. Kennedy. F. J.
Mr. HoFFA. Boltell Co.
Mr. Kennedy. Who owns that company ?
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4967
Mr. HoFTA. Boltell. Two brothers.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat other company ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think there may be 5 or 6. Offhand I can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. We can't find that many.
Mr. HoFFA. You haven't looked, maybe.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you bring those in this afternoon ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know this afternoon. But I will certainly bring
them in to you.
Mr. Kennedy. Where does Test Fleet run? What do they carry?
Mr. HoFFA. Wherever their certificates operate.
Mr. Kennedy. Where is that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you offhand. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any idea where they run ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can give you a guess, but I don't want to be held to
the extent of my guess.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. HoFFA. Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and I don't know
what other States.
Mr. Kjennedy. Do you know if they run between Chicago and St.
Louis ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would imagine that they do not, because they work on
a wheel, and as the truck comes in, it is registered and it takes the
load wherever it is going, without preference.
Mr. Kennedy. I^t me see if I understand. It started originally,
the J. & H. Sales Co. and when this company was started it was
started by Mr. Carney Matheson's brother, Mr. Albert Matheson?
Mr. HoFFA. As an attorney.
Mr. KJENNEDY. And Mr. Carney Matheson's brother set this up.
The stock was issued in Mr. Montan's name. The stock was then
transferred over to Mrs. Brennan and Mrs. Hoft'a in their maiden
names ; is that correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. You make your summary and when I see what you are
doing, I will be able to answer you.
Mr. KJENNEDY. You tell me when I am wrong, will you?
Mr. HoFFA. I will.
Mr. Kennedy. That company was set up and that company became
the National Equipment Co. The National Equipment Co. operated
and it sold equipment or leased equipment to the Baker Drive-Away.
Baker Drive- Away at that time was owned and operated by Mathe-
son and Bridge.
Is that correct so far ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have answered that on the record.
(At this point, Senator Mundt withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. And the dividends that were declared — there was a
$4,000 dividend and that $4,000 dividend was used as a downpayment
to start Test Fleet, and Test Fleet had a contract and made a contract
with Commercial Carriers, and Commercial Carriers just prior to
that time had had some difficulty with some members of the union,
and the lawyer for Commercial Carriers arranged to set up a company
in Tennessee, to go down from Michigan to Tennessee and set up a
company.
The company was set up in the name of Mr. Wrape and two of his
assistants, and, suddenly, or shortly afterward, the stock was trans-
4968 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
f erred over into the names of Mr. Hoffa's wife, lier maiden name and
into Mrs. Brennan's maiden name.
Is that correct so far ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have answered those questions.
The Chaieman. Just a moment. The record will reflect that this
is a true statement unless you want to deny it.
I do not know whether it is or not.
He is giving a summary. I suggest for you, to keep the record
straight, if there is anything in error about it, that you so state.
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Kennedy may make a statement one
way on a set of facts and use the same facts and I may use different
verbiage on a set of facts and it may sound different.
The Chairman. It might. It is for that reason that the Chair
suggested to you that if there is any error or wrong conclusion as he
makes a resume of it, I think it would be well to point it out.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I will stand on my testimony, Senator, as compared to
the sunnnation of Mr. Kennedy, and if there is anything that is
con
The Chairman. If there is anything wrong with this summation,
and you do not deny it in your testimony, then the record will have
to stand on the summation.
Mr. HoFFA. I think that my testimony will have to speak for itself,
because the summation is drawn with an inference rather than
questions.
The Chairman. All right.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. $4,000 in dividends was declared out of National
Equipment Co. and you went in to set up Test Fleet. National Equip-
ment Co. sold out to Convertible Equipment Leasing Co.
Once, again, we come back.
Convertible Leasing Equipment Co. was operated and owned by
Matheson and Bridge.
Mr. HoFFA. Do you know that for a fact ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't Imow it.
Mr. Kennedy. Matheson
The Chairman. All right. Does the witness wish to state what
the facts are?
Mr. PIoFFA. I don't know the facts, Senator. That is why I asked
the question.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Carney Matheson does the negotiating for the
Truck- Away and Drive- Away employers.
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Carney Matheson does not do the negotiation. He
is the attorney for them and they have a negotiating committee of
employers and union representatives.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he has been conducting negotiations with
the teamsters since 1932 or 1933.
Mr. HoFFA. As an attorney, in the advisory capacity to his clients.
Mr. Kennedy. We understand that.
Mr. HoFFA. No, no, just a moment. Let's get the record straight.
He is not on the negotiating committee. He is their attorney.
IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4969
Mr. Kennedy. We have had it described that he does do the nego-
tiating, and also he stated himself that he has done negotiating with
the teamsters since 1932 or 1933. At least he is on the committee that
does it.
Mr. HoFFA. Pie is the attorney for the committee.
Mr. Kennedy. So then the Test Fleet is set up, it is set up by Mr.
Wrape who is the attorney for Commercial Carriers, set up in Ten-
nessee, and the stock is in his name and then transferred over to the
names of Mr. Holfa's wife, her maiden name, and Mr. Brennan's
wife's maiden name, and at that time they don't have any trucks.
They go to Commercial Carriers and Commercial Carriers gets the
equipment for them.
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. That isn't correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Through Commercial Carriers— — -
Mr. HoFFA. That is not a correct statement.
The Senator told me to correct you when you are wrong.
Mr. Kennedy. Please do. Go ahead.
Mr. HoFFA. The fact was that the equipment was purchased from,
I believe, a dealer, but the company had it assigned to them because
of a discount that they get on the assignment of equipment.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Commercial Carriers have anything to do with
getting the equipment i
Mr. HoFFA. Only on the assignment is my understanding. I do
not believe that you will find, and I will check it, I do not believe you
will find anywhere Commercial Carriers name connected with this
equipment in title or otherwise.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Commercial Carriers involved at all in tlie pur-
chase of the equipment ?
Mr. HoFFA. I explained to you how.
Mr. Kennedy. That they were involved ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I did not. I told you, and I will repeat it, that
the equipment was purchased with a mortgage, and that company,
because they had a fleet discount, not just to this particular company
but to all brokers, all fleet owners, it was purchased using their fleet
discount.
(At this point, Senator Gold water withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Mr. Kennedy. I understand that.
So was the equipment purchased through Commercial Carriers?
Mr. HoFFA. It was not purchased tlirough Commercial Carriers.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Commercial Carriers have anything to do
with the purchase of the equipment?
Mr. HoFFA. Only to the extent I have outlined.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't understand what that means, if it does not
mean what I just said.
Mr. HoFFA. Because you are trying to intimate that Commercial
Carriers first owned the equipment and then it was purchased.
Mr. Kennedy. No, I did not say that.
Mr. HoFFA. Correct it.
Mr. Kennedy. I didn't say that.
Mr. HoFFA. That is what you said.
Mr. Kennedy. I said the equipment was purchased through Com-
mercial Carriers.
4970 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFTA. You are saying one thing indirectly and another. I
say to you that it was purchased by the Test Fleet Co., but that the
equipment
Mr. Kennedy. Was purchased
Mr. HoFFA. Just a minute. The equipment was discounted at the
discount rate of Commercial Carriers. I will put it that way.
Mr. Kennedy. So that the equipment was purchased through a
discount rate by Commercial Carriers, is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. You put it the way you want, and I will leave my
statement stand as it is.
All right?
Mr. Kennedy. Test Fleet at that time was not able to pay for the
equipment, so Commercial Carriers allowed them to keep it for a
month, paid them rent for the use of the equipment, and then Test
Fleet, in turn, returned tliat check to them for a downpayment on
the equipment that they had purchased, and this arrangement for ap-
proximately nine pieces of equipment lasted for some 6 years, lasted
up until the present time, and through 1956 Mr. Hoffa's wife had made
some $125,000.
Is that right?
Mr. HoFFA. With a $54,000 investment.
Mr. Kennedy. And the investment was an investment originally
of $4,000 of their own money, $50,000 that was borrowed from a bank
in St. Louis, the bank that the Commercial Carriers does business with.
The person who went on the loan as guarantor of the loan was
Mr. Beveridge
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. That is not correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Of Commercial Carriers.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think you will find anywhere in the record
any guarantee of the loan. I think the equipment itself was the
security for the loan.
We will check the record, but I don't want that in the record with-
out
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Beveridge arranged to have that loan
Mr. HoFFA, Mr. Beveridge
Mr. Kennedy. Of (Commercial Carriers that does business with
the teamsters, has contracts with the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. Mr. Beveridge may have made a
statement that it was a loan of such that would be a good loan. I
don't know for sure.
Mr. Kennedy. Then one other matter I forgot, that Mr. Beidler,
the accountant who was the accountant for Commercial Carriers kept
the books of Test Fleet for some 4 years and was paid nothing for
that except a bonus at one time of $150.
Mr. HoFFA. That wasn't one time. It was each year, as my recol-
lection, and it was sufficient. I think if you will read Beidler's testi-
mony you will find he was agreeable to it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any salary paid to him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I think there was.
Mr. Kennedy. After 1953 ?
Mr. HoFFA. There could have been.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to that, for 4 years, there was no salary paid ?
Mr. HoFFA. Because of the work that was involved, he was satis-
fied.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4971
Mr. Kennedy. And Test Fleet has been able to carry, since it went
into operation has been able to carry, the most profitable cars, namely
Cadillacs, since 1950, has it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. Just the same as other people having Cadillacs did,
with no exception, no concessions, nor did anybody assure them of
making a profit with the investment.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, I think that starts us off in some of your
business anyway, Mr. Hoffa. Maybe we can get to it some more.
Mr. Hoffa. Thank you.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
Senator Kennedy. The J & H Sales, the first of these companies,
did Mrs. Hoffa or Mrs. Brennan invest some money in J & H Sales?
Mr. Hoffa. I would assume they did. Senator. I don't have the
knowledge at this moment.
Senator Kennedy. You do not know what they invested, or how
much?
Mr. Hoffa. Offhand I do not, Senator.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:40 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., the same day.)
(Members present at the taking of the recess : Senators McClellan,
Kenned}', Ervin, and McjSTamara.)
afternoon SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
hearing were Senators McClellan and Ives.)
TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Eesumed
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy, We discussed a number of your businesses this
morning, Mr. Hoffa. The one that we originated with or started with
was the J. & H. Sales Co.
Could you tell the committee how you got into J. & H. Sales Co.,
and how did that originate ?
Mr. Hoffa. I answered this morning the question, but I cannot
tell you exactly how J. & H. Sales originated, since I did not handle
the actual transaction of putting the company into business.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know or you can't tell the committee
what you invested in it ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would not be able to tell, but I assume that I can get
the facts together.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you do that ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you get those facts together for us ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think we can.
Mr. Kennedy. That will be fine.
We were talking this morning about Mr. Carney Matheson who,
as I understand it, represents the National Automobile Transportation
Association, Truckaway Driveaway division, and who is also the
89330— 57— pt. 13 4
4972 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
attorney for Commercial Carriers, and that he had some business
relationships with National Equipment.
I wonder if tliere were any other business relationships that you
have had with JSIr. Carney Matheson?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe that the record shows that I had any
business with Carney Matheson on National Equipment and I don't
believe that.
Mr. Kennedy. Now National Equipment Co. was owned by your
wife and Mr. Brennan's wife, and they leased this equipment to Baker
Driveaway; isn't that correct?
Mr. HoFFA. Go ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. And Baker Di'iveaway. as I understand it, Mr.
Matheson has some of the stock interest in that.
Mr. HoFFA. I tliink he was a very very small minority stockholder.
(At this point Senator Curtis entered the hearino; room.)
Mr. HoFFA. I am quite sure that Mr. Matheson could not be termed
as having anything to do with the National Equipment Co.
Mr. Kennedy. At least he is a stockholder in Baker Driveaway.
Mr. HoFFA. I think he was at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. And National Equipment Co. leased its equipment
to Baker Driveaway, and so for tliat reason you have had or your
company has had some financial transactions with a company in which
Mr. Matheson has had an interest.
Mr. HoFFA. It is a matter of construction.
(At this point Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Have you had any other business transactions of
any kind with Mr. Matheson ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Just a minute, and I will try to answer your question.
In the letter I sent you of February 8 on page 2, there is a statement
that in 1952 Mr. Hoffa invested in a venture known as P. M. L. Co.,
whose business was loaning of money to companies. This company
suffered a considerable loss and although it has not been dissolved,
it is inactive and lias been inactive since 1952.
My attorney tells me, although I don't recollect it, that Matheson
was some part of that company.
Mr. Kennedy. What did that company do ?
Mr. HoFFA. It invested money into ventures.
Mr. Kennedy. And who was in the company other than yourself?
Was it just Mr. Matheson and yourself?
Mr. HoFFA. Matheson and Louisell.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you spell that name ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. L-o-u-i-s-e-1-1.
Mr. Hoffa. Tliey are both attorneys.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Matheson and Mr. Louisell ?
Mr. HoFFA. Both attorneys.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Matheson at that time representing the
Truckaway and Driveaway division of the National Automobile
Association ?
Mr. HoFFA. There was another one. Porritt.
Mr. Kennedy. At this time, just on Mr. Matheson first, was he
then representing the Truckaway and Driveaway division ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD 4973
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, he was, but this liad nothing to do with that and
this was a private venture in regard to loaning money for investments
and nothing to do with transportation.
Mr. Kennedy. But he was at that time on tlie negotiating committee
for the employers ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were an official of the teamsters union?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Mr. Louisell ?
Mr. HoFFA. An attorney at law.
Mr. Kennedy. Does he represent any of the employers of the
trucking companies?
Mr. HoFFA. He could, and I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. In Detroit ?
Mr. HoFFA. I say he could, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know that?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't, offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Mr. Porritt I
Mr. HoFFxV. I don't think Porritt represents anybody.
Mr. Kennedy. He is an attorney ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you invest in this company?
Mr. Hoffa. $20,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Did that come out of a bank account?
Mr. Hoffa. No, it did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did it come from ?
Mr. Hoffa. It came out of my ov^^l moneys that I had available.
Mr. Kennedy. You put that up in cash ?
Mr. Hoffa. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Where were you keeping the $20,000 in cash?
Mr. Hoffa. I borrowed some of the monev, and in addition to
that
Mr. Kennedy. "Wlio did you borrow it from?
Mr. Hoffa. From individuals,
Mr. Kennedy. From whom?
Mr. Hoffa. Offhand that particular amount of money that I bor-
rowed, I don't know, at this particular moment, but the records of my
loans which I requested I have, and out of all of the moneys I loaned
over this period of time I went into these various ventures.
Mr. Kennedy. I am trying to find out where you got the $20,000 in
cash to put up in this company,
Mr. Hoffa. Some money that I saved and some that I borrowed.
Mr. Kennedy. Where would you keep the money that you saved?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, now, I think that is a personal issue. Unless you
can assure me that somebody wouldn't want to take my money, and
I shouldn't tell you where I keep it, unless you insist.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you keep it in a box ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would keep it in a safe place.
The Chairman. The question is. Did it come out of a bank account?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir ; it did not.
The Chairman. It came from other sources ?
Mr, Hoffa, Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And it was all cash that you invested in this
company ?
4974 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. It was $20,000 in cash that you had around ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. I said "Yes." What do you mean by "I had it around" ?
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you borrow to make up the $20,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I tell you now, I cannot tell you offhand how much
money I borrowed at that time, or how much money I had on hand at
that time, but I did invest $20,000 into this venture.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, do you have your list of loans, and could we
have that now ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have a list of my loans.
Mr. Kennedy. Could I have that ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. If you want it, I will read it to you.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all right. Just as long as we get the infor-
mation, Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. HoFFA. Are you talking about moneys I currently owe?
Mr. Kennedy. That you what ?
Mr. HoFFA. You are talking about moneys that I currently owe?
Mr. Kennedy. No. You said that you borrowed this back in, I
suppose whenever you started this P. M. L. Co., and you told me that
you borrowed the money. I asked you where you borrowed it and
you said you had a list of your loans.
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. I said that I borrowed the money, and
then I told you that I had a list of the loans of moneys that I borrowed
over a period of time from 1953.
The Chairman. This is prior to 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that prior to that.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know. This was the latter part of 1952.
The Chairman. You don't have any record of your loans?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. I have tried to recap this situation the best I
could, and I have come up with the question of moneys that I have
here.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to have that, but you can't tell the com-
mittee where you got the rest of this $20,000? Some of it you had
someplace, that you would rather not tell us, in cash, and then you said
that you borrowed the rest in cash and you can't tell us from whom
you borrowed this cash.
Mr. Hoffa. I would say to you that there should be no inference
that there is anything wrong in the fact that I haven't told you where
I keep my money, and neither should there be any inference in my
opinion for legislative purposes, implying that the money was other
than borrowed from a legitimate source and it is legitimate money.
Let us don't leave that impression, if you please, now.
I have here the loans from 1953 down. Those loans I have no ob-
jection to reading into the record, and you will find the testimony
concerning P. M. L. in the congressional hearings of Mr. Hoffman,
Clare Hoffman of Michigan.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. Unfortunately that is nowhere near complete, Mr.
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, I don't remember. If
you can refresh my recollection, I will be very happy to tell you.
IMPROPER ACTIVnTES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4975
The Chairman. Before we go to those, let us clear up this other
one. As I understand you, in this particular investment, Mr. Hoffa
you said you invested $20,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Some of the money that you had in cash?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. And the rest of it you borrowed ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Now, can you tell us the amount that you had in
cash and the amount that you borrowed ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir ; I cannot.
The Chairman. Then can you tell us from whom you borrowed it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand, I cannot, sir. I have been trying to refresh
my memory and check this up. In such a short period of time I
haven't been able to do it, sir.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair for a moment, please?
The Chahiman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I would at this time like to raise the objection that
these questions and the subject matter covered by the questions are
not pertinent to this particular inquiry, and that they do not concern
a proper legislative purpose.
Now I think that we are getting in, if the chairman please, to a
realm of a man's personnel investments unrelated to the labor field.
I think — may I continue? — I don't want to be legalistic about it
and I know the chairman is probably more aware than I am what
the recent decision of the Supreme Court is in the Watkms case, and
the requirements of the legislative branch of the Government in going
into matters of this kind.
But I do believe that we are entitled to know from the committee
the grounds upon which they claim that this subject matter is per-
tinent to this inquiry.
The Chairman. I will be very glad to tell counsel and his client.
This committee has rather broad jurisdiction, I believe you will
agree, under the resolution, and the purpose of inquiring as we have
01 others in these matters is to try to determine what the situation is
with respect to conflicts of interest as between labor leaders and man-
agement. We have had a lot of testimony along the line of collusion,
as counsel may be aware. We have also had a lot of testimony of
misue of union funds. Of course I can't know whether there is misuse
of union funds unless we inquire into it, and where you find these
business transactions associated maybe with management, where man-
agement is having relations with the labor union of which the one
under interrogation is an official.
Those things are, I think, quite proper for us to inquire into. The
purpose is to determine what conditions have prevailed, or prevail,
so that the Congress may weigh it and pass judgment upon whether
it is an improper practice; and if it is an improper practice, what
legislation is needed, if any, to remedy the condition.
So far as any private transaction unrelated or what may be unre-
lated to any union business or conflict of interest or collusion, or mis-
use of union funds, I don't think that this committee would have any
jurisdiction of it.
4976 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
But we can't know that without making the inquiry and giving the
witness the opportunity to answer.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't want to quibble with you about that, Sen-
ator.
The Chairman. I can assure you that w^e are asking no questions
here that we haven't asked others under comparable circumstances.
Mr. Fitzgerald. As the Court has specified in the Watkins case,
although your power of inquiry is properly broad, and no one finds
fault with that, it is not unlimited. We are in a field here now where
I think that there is some serious legal question as to whether or not
on a matter unrelated or investment unrelated to the labor field or to
that portion of the labor field in which the witness is operating, that
is pertinent to this particular inquiry.
The Chairman. Well, if we digress too far, as counsel may think,
from our jurisdiction, or from pertinency, counsel of course can make
that point.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I have this understanding : I have been a spec-
tator at some of the hearings earlier, and I know sometimes that law-
yers are prone to think they are in court and enter a lot of objections,
and I know at times the Chair has been rather abrupt with them on it.
I don't want to interrupt the flow of the inquiry, and I don't want
to try to attempt to harrass anyone with objections, and I am glad
that the chairman will permit me that right.
The Chairman. Oh, yes. The only thing the Chair would suggest
is that if the Chair rules, we don't need to indulge in long speeches.
The Chair's ruling may be wrong, but long speeches probably wouldn't
cause him to change his mind or that of the committee.
Mr. Fitzgerald. You never argue with the umpire.
The Chairman. We are delegated to do a certain task, and au-
thorized to do it, and we will trv to do it with fairness.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I confer with Mr, Ho if a for just a moment?
The Chairman. Yes.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I will answer the question, and there is no ifs and
ands about it. Here is the answer here, and it is very simple.
My counsel has advised me I should do this, and that is what I hire
him for.
The Chairman. All right, sir.
Mr. HoFFA. Abe Farris, $5,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is he ? $5,000. And this is of what date now ?
Mr. HoFFA. This is in the year 1953, to the best of my reconstruc-
tion.
Mr. Kennedy. These are the loans that vou had outstanding in
1953?
Mr. HoFFA. These are the loans to the best of my recollection, that
I have made trying to compile this list.
Mr. Kennedy. During 1953 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, 1953 or 1952, and I am of the opinion that I owed
them money in 1953. I know I owed them money in 1953 and I may
have borrowed some of it in 1952, and I am not running that down.
Mr. Kennedy. I understand that.
Now, as you go along, Abe Farris, $5,000 ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. I may say that you will find the same information in
the Hoffman investigation that I gave him and that I will give you,
with a few additions since then.
IMPROPER ACTIVrrrES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4977
Mr. Kennedy. That is $5,000 from Abe Farris ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That was $5,000 in cash or by check?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You got $5,000 in cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. May I get that cleared up? You say cash, and do
you mean currency ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Thank you.
Mr. HoFFA. That is paid back.
Mr. Kennedy. You paid that back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay that back by check or by cash?
Mr. HoFFA. By cash.
(At this point Senators McNamara and Goldwater entered the
hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA. When I say cash, I mean currency.
Senator Ives. There is a difference.
Mr. Kennedy. This was money that you didn't have in a bank
account.
Mr. HoFFA. I just recently acquired a bank account.
Mr. Kennedy. But prior to that, you just had the $5,000 in cash?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you pay Mr. Farris back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere in 1954 or the latter part of 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there interest on that ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, there was not.
Mr. Kennedy. Just $5,000 in cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Just an exchange ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was a friend of mine.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you put a note up ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Any collateral ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the purpose of the loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. I probably used it for investments.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't tell us what it was ?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand ; no, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. And who is Mr. Farris? What is his job?
Mr. HoFFA, He owns an auction house and a retail furniture store.
Mr. Kennedy. A what?
Mr. HoFFA. Auction house and retail furniture store.
Senator Mundt. I have a point of information. I was called to
the telephone. Is this part of the $20,000 that we were discussing
a minute ago ?
Mr. HoFFA. Part of this could be, sir. Part of this could be very
easily.
Senator Mundt. It could have been part of the $20,000 that you
compiled out of your own money ?
4978 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Part of it could be ; yes, sir.
Mr. E^ENNEDY. Has he ever had any connection with the teamsters
union ?
Mr. HoFFA. Has he had? He has drivers in local union 243.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. HoFFA. Jack Buskin, $5,000.
Mr. I^JENNEDY. That is by check or by cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. By cash.
Mr. I^NNEDY. What year was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere in 1952 or 1953, and I owed it in 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. Is he also known as Babe Buskin ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. What is his position ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is in the cigarette-vending machine business and
also a labor relations man for supermarkets.
Mr. Kennedy. And they have some dealings with the teamsters,
do they ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, 337.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. By check or by cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. By cash.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you pay him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand I don't recollect; somewhere in 1953 or 1954.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get this $5,000 in cash to pay him back?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. From this source that you would rather not dis-
close ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any note on that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay any interest?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Any collateral ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. O. K.
Mr. HoFFA. Joe Holtzman, $5,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Joe Holtzman ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio was he ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was the partner of Mr. Buskin who is now dead.
Mr. I^NNEDY. That was $5,000 in check or by cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. By cash, all of this was by cash.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you borrow that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere in 1952 or 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. For what purpose ?
Mr. HoFFA. Investments, or for expenditures, and I don't know.
Mr. Ivennedy. You don't know why you borrowed it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know offhand. I know I did.
Mr. Kennedy. He had $5,000 in cash and he turned it over to you ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. I^nnedy. Did you give him a note ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
IMPROPER ACnVirrES IN THE LABOR HELD 4979
Mr. IvENNEDY. Did you put up any collateral ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. There is no evidence of a loan at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. Wliat is that?
Mr. Kennedy. There is no evidence of the loans at all, no written
evidence ?
Mr. HoFFA. He knew about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Both you and he knew about the $5,000?
Mr. HoFFA. I think Hoffman did, too, and he had it thoroughly
investigated and he asked questions.
Mr. Kennedy. You paid him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien did you pay him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere in 1953 or 1954.
Mr. Kennedy. By cash again ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right. Al Vignali, $3,000.
Mr. I^nnedy. $3,000?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr, Kennedy. By check or by cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. All of this is by cash.
Mr. Ivennedy. I just ask you so we make sure we get it.
Mr. HoFFA. You will get it — all by cash.
Mr. Kennedy. You got that in what year?
Mr, HoFFA, Somewhere in 1952 or 1953.
Mr. Ivennedy. Who is Al Vignali ?
Mr. HoFFA. Business representative of the 299.
Mr. KJENNEDY. How do you spell his name ?
Mr. HoFFA. V-i-g-n-a-1-i.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a business agent for local 299 ?
Mr, HoFFA, Yes, sir.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Wlien did he loan that to you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere in 1952 or somewhere during 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any collateral put up for that loan?
Mr. HoFFA. No,
Mr. KJENNEDY. Not any note ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Any interest paid ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, When did you pay it back ?
Mr. HoFFA. I haven't paid it back.
Mr. Kennedy. You still owe that to him ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy, You still owe that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Ivennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. HoFFA. Paul Allen.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is he ?
Mr. HoFFA. Representing the riggers union.
Mr, Kennedy. How much did you borrow from him ?
Mr. HoFFA. $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. What year ?
Mr. HoFFA, Somewhere in 1952 or 1953,
Mr. Kennedy. You paid him back ?
4980 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HorFA. No, I hare not.
Mr. Kennedy. You have not paid him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I have not.
Mr. Kennedy. That was $2,000 in cash ?
INIr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason i
JSIr. HoFFA. For investments or for some reason I needed it at that
time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any note on that?
Mr. HoFFA. No. Ilennan Kierdorf, $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. The same thing, in cash i
]Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. No note?
Mr. HoFFA. No note.
Mr. Kennedy. No colh\teral ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. No interest?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1952?
Mr. IIoFFA. Somewhere in 1052 or 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. And you cannot tell us what it was for?
]Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He gave it to you in cash?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay him back?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. The early part of 1952 or wlien? Was it the
early part of 1952 or wlien?
]\Ir. HoFFA. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember that either?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. "What is Kierdorf 's position?
Mr. HoFFA. A representative of, I think, 376 local.
Mr. Kennedy. Of the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir; I think it is 376, the Auto Sales Union, and
I am not positive, but I think it is 376.
Senator Curtis. Will the counsel yield at that point?
Y'^ou say that you still owe this $2,000i?
]Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, I do.
Senator Curtis. Could he bring suit for it and recover it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Why, I assume he could. Senator.
Senator Curtis. Has the statute of limitations not run out?
Mr. HoFFA. Well. I think. Senator, when you are dealing with
friends, you verj- seldom have that problem and all of these fellows
happen to be veiy good friends of mine.
Senator Curtis. But you have owed that money since 1952 or
1953 and no note or other memorandum has been made in reference
to it, is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. INIr. Hotl'man raised the same question,
Senator. Wien I talked to these gentlemen about wanting a note
they got highly indignant and they said they didn't need any note,
that we knew each other and when we started trading in notes, and
whether or not we would pay back, then there would be something
wrong with our friendship.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4981
Senator Curtis. How old a man is Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would say that he is 65.
Senator Curtis. Does he have a family ?
Mr. HoFFA. He has a wife.
Senator Curtis. That is all at this time.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a good friend of yours ?
Mr. HoFFA. A very good friend of mine.
Mr. Kennedy. He is not the same Kierdorf that was sentenced to
10 to 25 years in the State penitentiary for armed robbery, is he?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
The Chairman. Let us have order.
Mr. Kennedy. That was in 1931. In 1932 he received 18 months
in the United States Penitentiary in Leavenworth for impersonating
a Government officer?
Mr. HoFFA. That I didn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Also, he has been arrested for kidnapping and armed
robbery in Canada and in Detroit.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair?
Mr. Chairman, I object to this on the ground that these questions
are certainly not pertinent to this particular inquiry and they could
not be asked for any proper legislative purpose. All they could do is
constitute a smear of an individual who is not directly involved in
this matter at all, a man who has, as far as the record is concerned,
lived a good, uniform, decent life since he has been released from
prison.
Now, I think to bring his name into it at this time and before the
entire Nation is to defeat everything that we talk about with regard
to rehabilitation. I don't think Mr. Kennedy realizes the importance
of it. So I don't think that it is pertinent to this inquiry and I am
sorry that I have to object, but I think that I am on solid ground.
If it is a person with a recent record or something like that, that
is different.
The Chairman. I do not know how far the record goes back. Of
course, counsel knows. "We are confronted with a problem here, and
we have had testimony of some characters in labor organizations that
does not smear them maybe, but smears the organization.
I do not want to ask witnesses questions for the purpose of em-
]>arrassment. That is not the point. We are trying to do that and
we should not try to do that.
But, wherever anything is relevant to this subject matter, we want
to inquire into it.
Let us proceed and the Chair will observe a little closer.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to say in that connection, without
naming the other names, of those whom Mr. Hoffa has already listed
that he borrowed money from that work for the teamsters, that both
of the other gentlemen have long police records in addition to the
one that I have just mentioned.
Mr. HoFFA. For instance, what record has Vignali got?
Mr. Kennedy. The record shows he has been arrested nine times for
bookmaking.
Mr. HoFFA. Was he convicted?
Mr. Kennedy. No. He was arrested for malicious destruction
of property and received 1 year probation.
4982 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA, How long ago was that ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, it starts back in 1931.
Mr. HoFFA. He wasn't working for us at that time.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Then Roland McMasters in 1932, business agent,
local 299 — do you want me to go through it ?
Mr. HoFFA. You can't embarrass me by it. Go right ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. Attempted larceny.
Mr. HoFFA. If people work for me, I am perfectly willing to accept
the responsibility for hiring them and accept the responsibility for
their actions.
Mr, Kennedy. If you are questioning whether these people have
police records, I will be
Mr. HoFFA. You're the one who is questioning them.
Mr. Kennedy. I made a statement of fact.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Mr. HoFFA. It is a matter of embarrassment, but go ahead.
The Chairman, It is certainly important to the record and we can
get it in there. If the witness wants to question any part of it, why,
he may do so and we can check on it and ascertain the correctness
of it.
Let us proceed with the others.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead,
Mr, Hoffa. Marshall DuBach, D-u-B-a-c-h, $2,000,
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat is his position?
Mr. Hoffa. He is a representative of local 337.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you borrow that money ?
Mr. Hoffa. Somewhere in 1952 or 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. In cash ?
Mr. Hoffa. That's right.
Mr, Kennedy. For what reason?
Mr. Hoffa. For the reason of investments or some expenditure
that I needed at that time.
Mr, Kennedy. Have you paid that back ?
Mr. Hoffa. No ; I have not.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any collateral ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir ; there is not.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any note?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir.
Mr, Kennedy, Any interest you are paying ?
Mr. Hoffa. No,
Mr. Kennedy. O, K, Is that all ?
Mr, Hoffa. No. George Roxburgh, $1,000.
Mr, Kennedy, Did we identify DuBach?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir ; you did.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is the next one ?
Mr. Hoffa. George Roxburgh.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is George Roxburgh?
Mr. Hoffa, Representative of local 299, and I see that you have
the names in front of you there,
Mr. Kennedy. And what did you borrow from him?
Mr. Hoffa. I borrowed $1,000.
Mr. Kennedy, In cash ?
Mr. Hoffa. That's right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD 4983
Mr. Kennedy. And when did you borrow it ?
Mr. HoEFA. Somewhere in 1952 or early part of 1953.
Mr. KJENNEDY. For what reason?
Mr. HoFFA. For investments or some expenditures that I needed
it for.
Mr. Kennedy. And was there any collateral ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, there wasn't.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Any note?
Mr. HoFFA. No, there wasn't.
Mr. Kennedy, Any interest paid?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, there wasn't.
Mr. Kennedy. That was in cash, I guess you said that.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You have not paid that back ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have not.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. HoFFA. Al Squires, $1,000.
Mr. Kennedy. The same answers on that one to all of the ques-
tions I have asked you before ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. What is his occupation ?
Mr. HoFFA. Representative of 299.
Mr. Kennedy. You cannot tell us what you did with that money ?
Mr. Hoi'FA. Offhand I can't.
Mr, Kennedy. You have not paid that back ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I have not.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Did Mr. Bellino ask you whether you paid any of
this money back when he questioned you out in Detroit?
Mr. HoFFA. I never discussed it with Mr. Bellino.
Mr. Kennedy. You never discussed this?
Mr. HoFFA. Not to my recollection or knowledge.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. You did not discuss it with both Mr. Salinger and
Mr. Bellino?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Fitzgerald reminded me that we did discuss the
question of loans, but not individuals. Is that correct, Mr. Bellino,
or not ?
Mr. Belling. You said, Mr. Hoffa, that you had paid all of the
loans back in 1953 and 1954 and 1955.
Mr. Hoffa. I said no such thing.
The Chairman. We will proceed. Your testimony is that you did
not say it.
Senator Ives. I would like to raise a question right here.
Mr. Hoffa, are you through with your list ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir ; I am not.
Senator Ives. When you get through, I have a question I would
like to ask you.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Hoffa. William Bell, $1,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is that?
Mr. Hoffa. William Bell, B-e-1-1.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat is his position?
Mr. Hoffa. Representative of 299.
4984 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. When did you borrow that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Same period.
Mr. Kennedy. For what purpose ^
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot recall ort'hand for what purpose.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you borrow all of this money on the same day or
the same period?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall that.
Mr. Ivennedy. Was all 1952 or 1953 and you can't tell us at all?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't place it.
Mr. Ivennedy. You don't know what it was for ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was for expenditures that I needed at that time. I
can't recall offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. This was in cash also ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And no collateral, and no note ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy. And no interest paid ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Plas it been paid back ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, it has not.
Mr. Ivennedy. O. K.
Mr. HoFFA. Frank Fitzsimmons.
Mr. Ivennedy. How much money from him ?
Mr. HoFFA. $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. AVliat is his position ?
Mr. HoFFA. A representative and vice president of 299.
Mr. Ivennedy. Does he have any other position ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, he is, I think, secretary-treasurer of the Michigan
conference, offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. You borrowed $2,000 in cash from him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. In 1952 or 1953 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere around there ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know what it was for ?
Mr. HoFFA. For expenditures of some description we had at that
time.
Mr. Kennedy. Any collateral ?
Mr. HoFFA. No collateral.
Mr. Kennedy. Any note ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Any interest ?
Mr. HoFFA, No.
Mr. Ivennedy. Have you paid him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Ivennedy. Any others ?
Mr. HoFFA. Joe Prebenda. Just a minute. I passed one. Donald
McMasters.
Mr. Ivennedy. I thought you gave McMasters.
Mr. HoFFA. You did.
Mr. Ivennedy. I did ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. O. K. $1,000.
Mr. HoFFA. And Joe Prebenda.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4985
Mr. IvENNEDY. Has McMasters been paid back ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That money hasn't been paid back yet and the same
answers to the same questions ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
James Clift
Mr. Kennedy. Joe Prebenda, you haven't finished with him.
Mr. HoFFA. $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. What is he ?
Mr. HoFFA. A representative of the newspaper drivers.
Mr. Kennedy. That was cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. No interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. No coUateral or note ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you paid that back ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
James Clift, $1,000.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you spell his name ?
Mr. HoFFA. C-1-i-f-t. $1,000.
Mr. Kennedy. What is his position ?
Mr. HoFFA. Representative of local 337.
Mr. I^NNEDY. When was that borrowed ?
Mr. HoFFA. The same period of time ; 1952 or 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. In cash again ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. No collateral ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. No note ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. No interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr, Kennedy. Have you paid him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You haven't paid him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not yet.
Mr. Kjennedy. All right.
Mr. HoFFA. J. L. Keeshin, $5,000, paid back.
Mr. Kennedy. That was borrowed in cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. It was a note ?
Mr. HoFFA. No note.
Mr. Ivennedy. No collateral ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. No interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you pay him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Sometime in 1953 or 1954, and I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you pay him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I sent him a money order, and I think a money order if
I am not mistaken. Some kind of a draft I sent him.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you purchase the money order ?
4986 IMPROPER ACTIVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I think at a bank.
Mr. IvENNEDY. What did you use to purchase the money order?
Mr. HoFFA. Cash.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Is that from this source that you would rather not
tell us about, where the cash came from ?
Mr. HoFFA. It might be from some of the source I have here, I don't
know.
Mr. Kennedy. But it wasn't from a bank ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was not.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, who is Mr. Keeshin ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is the owner of the Keeshin Freight Lines, or was at
one time, and now owns it. I guess it is Keeshin Freight, and he had
bought a new company and he has the old name back and I think it
is Keeshin Freight Lines.
The Chairman. The name rang a bell with me.
Mr. HoFFA. Jack Keeshin.
The Chairman. I think we had had some testimony from him in
another hearing at one time. He is from Chicago, as I recall.
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the owner of what?
Mr. HoFFA. I want to say also, speaking on advice of my attorney,
that I have been checked by Internal Revenue on these figures, and
investigators of your committee I am sure were around to see these
individuals.
Now I have some other loans.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio is Mr. Keeshin ? He is owner of what ?
Mr. Hoffa. He is owner of a truckline.
Mr. Kennedy. A truckline?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Now is it the Conklin Truck Line?
Mr. Hoffa. No. I think he got the old name "Keeshin" back.
Mr. Kennedy. He used to be Conklin ?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Do they have contracts with the teamsters?
Mr. Hoffa. That iu correct.
Mr. Kennedy. They have a number of drivers, is that right, be-
longing to the teamsters union ?
Mr. Hoffa. That is right. I may say that my members have been
informed of these loans, by newspapers, and by Mr. Hoffman making
it public knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. All right.
Mr. Hoffa. July 1955, $5,000, I borrowed.
Mr. Kennedy. From whom?
Mr. Hoffa. Wliat I call an advance on salary from my local union.
Mr. Kennedy. Local what?
Mr. Hoffa. 299.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you paid that back ?
Mr. Hoffa. It was paid back according to the records of my sec-
retary in September of the same year. I signed a note for the
money, and also signed that if something should happen to me, the
insurance money or the money in the retirement fund would take
care of the loan.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you receive that by check ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4987
Mr. PIoFFA, That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you pay them back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Cash.
Mr. Kennedy. You got the cash and paid them back ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. October 1955, $2,976.30.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you give me that again ?
Mr. HoFFA. October 1955, $2,976.30.
Mr. Kennedy. From whom was that?
Mr. HoFFA. Again that is my old local union; 299, advancement.
Mr. Ivennedy. Wliat did you do with this money, $5,000 and the
$2,000?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand, the $5,000 I don't know. I notice that the
$2,000 I loaned to a fellow named Hamia.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio is he ?
Mr. HoFFA. A man who operates a hospital.
Mr. Kennedy. And you got $2,000 by check from your local?
Mr. HoFFA. What is that?
Mr. Kennedy. You got $2,000 by check?
Mr. HoFFA. $2,976.30.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Brennan also got a check for that amount.
Mr. HoFFA. I think for an equal amount. I am quite sure.
Mr. Kennedy. And you loaned the money out then ?
Mr. HoFFA. We loaned it to a friend of ours who was in need ot
money, who operates I think it is Mayberry Sanitarium, isn't it, Mr.
Bellino, or Maybury Sanitarium?
Mr. Kennedy. Has that money been paid back?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay that back by cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was a check issued by them to me and we cashed
it and gave them the money, and I am sure of that. The check was
issued, I am quite sure, to Brennan and to myself for the money, and
1 am quite sure we cashed it and paid it back.
Is that right, Mr. Bellino ?
Mr. Kennedy. We do not know the answers.
Mr. HoFFA. You do, and you checked the record and you know
whether it is right or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay this back ?
Mr. HoFFA. According to the records
Mr. Kennedy. You have not made 299 available and we have not
been able to go through that.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I might say that is my fault, Mr. Kennedy. It
is not Mr. Hoffa's fault and we are trying to do that, and you prob-
ably will get an answer on it today.
Mr. Kennedy. I hope so.
Mr. Fitzgerald. You have kept us a little busy.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay that money back, Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, apparently, I paid $400 in October of 1955.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you paid any of the rest of it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I will have to get to that as I go along, because ^ have
paid this money back to the local union and the period I will give
you as I go along.
I got this out of the records, by the way, of the union, and so I
assume that the secretary copies it out right and I am just reading
from what was given to me.
89330— 57— pt. 13 5
4988 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Ciiairmajst. All right.
Mr. HoFFA. In May 1956, there was a $2,000 loan, again with the
same security.
Mr. Kennedy. From whom was that?
Mr. HoFFA. 299. Then in September of 1956, apparently, I paid
back $5,976.30.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat date was that?
Mr. HoFFA, September of 1956. Apparently, I paid back $5,976.30.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that cash or check ?
Mr. HoFFA. Cash.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, as I understand it, in September of 1955 you
paid $5,000 in cash back.
Mr. HoFFA. No, I didn't say that. I said I borrowed it in July
and in September $2,700 went back.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that a check or cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. Cash.
Mr. Kennedy. That was $2,700?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. In September of 1955, and then in September of
1956 you paid how much back ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think we have to get this straightened out. We have
May of 1956, is that correct ? It was a $2,000 loan.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes?
Mr. HoFFA. Then, in September I apparently paid back $5,976.30.
Mr. Kennedy. I am just trying to work out the money that you paid
back.
Mr. HoFFA. So am I.
Mr. Kennedy. You paid back $2,700 in September of 1955 ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. In cash?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, $300 in 1955.
Mr. Kennedy. $300 in addition ?
Mr. HoFFA. In October, and $5,976 in September of 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. That was cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Then, I borrowed $6,000 in 1956 in October.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes?
Mr. HoFFA. Then in November of 1956 I paid back $1,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. Then, on February of 1957 1 paid back $6,000,
which according to the records is the total amount of money paid back
that I borrowed.
Mr. Kennedy. You are all even ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. That last payment was in February of 1957 was
what?
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Kennedy. That last payment was what ?
Mr. HoFFA. $6,000 according to the records here.
Mr. Kennedy. Currency?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. All of this security on the moneys I have in
my retirement plan, and also in case of death I have an insurance
policy which would also take care of the indebtedness to my local
union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4989
Tlie Chairman. Were these loans from the union drawing interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. HoFFA. To continue on the money that I owe, or I borrowed
Mr. H. L. Grosberg, $4,000.
Mr, Kennedy. What date was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, in 1955, that is the best I can give.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is lie?
Mr. HoFFA. An accountant.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is he accountant for ?
Mr. HoFFA. Of our organization and other organizations.
Mr. Kennedy. Of the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You borrowed how much from him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I borrowed $4,000 at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that a check or cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't know whether he gave me a check or cash,
and I can't answer it at this moment.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you paid him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvENNEDY. How did you pay him back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Cash.
Mr. IvENNEDY. When did you pay him back?
Mr. HoFFA. When did I pay him back ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. Actually, I don't have a record when I paid him back;
there is one other I don't have a record of. There are two here I don't
have a record of when I paid back and I don't know what happened
to tliem.
I can't understand why it wasn't placed on here, but it is marked,
"paid back," so I assume we can get you the date if you want it.
Mr. Kennedy. Please do.
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Bel lino will be there some time I imagine next
week and we will work it out.
Mr. H. L. Grosberg, 195G, $7,500. I see a notation here that that
was paid back.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know when you paid him back?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I will have to get that information.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember paying him back?
Mr. HoFFA. It is marked here, "paid back," and I assume I paid
him back.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember whetiier you paid somebody
back in the last year $7,500 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I imagine I can if I get the records. I don't have
them liere, and I thought they were complete here.
Mr. Kennedy. But you cannot remember that yourself, $7,500?
Mr. HoFFA. I know it is paid back and let us put it on that basis.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you pay him back ?
Mr. Hoffa. Currency, and I am quite sure I cashed a check that
was paid back to me.
Mr, Kennedy. You cashed a check?
Mr. Hoffa. I am quite sure, I loaned the money again to a man
named Hanna.
Mr. Kennedy. The same man that you loaned to before ?
4990 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. That's right. And I am quite sure that the check he
gave me back I cashed. I think this is all out of "guess" and I want
you to understand that. I cashed the check and paid the local, or
I could have countersigned the check and I don't know which, but it
was paid back and it is a matter of record and I think it has been
checked by your committee,
Mr. Kennedy. But it came right from him, back to Mr. Grosberg,
as I understand it.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. KJENNEDY. O. K.
Mr. HoFFA. And there was a check from local 299 in 1956, $5,023.70.
The record shows that that has been paid back.
Mr. Kennedy. What was that for ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was a loan again, and a combination of the two loans
that I made to Hanna, where I underwrote the loans.
Mr. ICennedy. Did the union make the loan or did you make the
loan?
Mr. HoFFA. No, this one came from Mr. Grosberg and the other
came from 299.
Mr. Kennedy. AVhat did you have to do with it ? Do you mean the
money was loaned to you and you loaned it?
Mr. HoFFA. So I would have proper security for it in case there
should be something happen and the organization would not have to
suffer.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you paid that back ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct. According to the chart it is paid
back.
Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me?
Mr. HoFFA, According to the chart it is paid back.
The Chairman. "VVlien you borrowed money from the union and
loaned it to others, did the union get any interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. If I recollect correctly, I didn't either. Senator.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Ives. Just a minute, Mr. Chairman.
The union was not getting any interest on the money anyway,
was it?
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine in the savings account.
Senator Ives. Was that where it was, where you took it from?
You took money from the savings account when you did this?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, the checking account, but I thinlv also you will
find that some of this money that I borrowed was cash money that the
union had in a box. I think you will find that.
Senator Ives. To the extent the union was getting interest on a
savings account, or savings-account money, it was losing when you
did this?
Mr. HoFFA. It could have been a checking account because I don't
think that there was any question of interest. I don't think that there
is a savings account. Senator, and I will have to check that and let
you know.
Senator Ives. That is all right. Are you through with your list?
Mr. HoFFA. I have two more.
Henry Lower, $25,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Henry Lower ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 4991
Mr. HoFFA. I believe, and don't hold me to it, I won't give the
title, but he has a title in Sun Valley, I believe.
Mr. Kennedy. Sun Valley, Fla. ?
Mr. HoFFA. Sun Valley, Inc., and I think Mr. Bellino knows.
Mr. Kennedy. We are counting on you to give us information.
Mr. HoFFA. I am giving you the best I can give you and if you
want it correct, I think that they should assist a little bit, and they
have it.
Mr. Kennedy. That is $25,000 that you borrowed from Henry
Lower ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy., Who was Henry Lower? How did you know
Henry Lower?
Mr. HoFFA. Henry Lower at one time was a representative of the
teamsters union.
Mr. Kennedy. He used to represent the teamsters union, and what
does he do now ?
Mr. HoFFA. He now is in real estate.
Mr. Kennedy. Where is he in real estate ?
Mr. HoFFA. In Detroit, Florida, and I don't know where else.
Mr. Kennedy. When was this loan of $25,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it was last year and I haven't got the date
and I don't know why it isn't here but I believe it was last year.
Mr. Kennedy. And he loaned the money to you ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Do the teamsters have any arrangement or financial
arrangement with Mr. Lower or any companies associated with him?
Mr. HoFFA. The teamsters did not owe Mr. Lower or Mr. Lower
did not owe the teamsters, at that time, any money.
Mr. Kennedy. Does Mr. Lower or any of his companies have any
relationship, business relationship, with the teamsters union?
Mr. HoFFA. Only so far as the fact that the teamsters members can
buy lots in Florida, if they care to, from Mr. Lower.
Mr. Kennedy. Anybody can buy lots in Florida.
Mr. HoFFA. You asked me a question and I answered it.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you mean that there is no other relationship ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is not an officer of the teamsters union. Let me see.
I think maybe without salary, he might be a special agent.
The Chairman. Special agent for the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. He might be on certain incidents, we may need him to
do something and he may have the capacity to advise, biit I don't
think, Senator, that he is presently an officer, or presently a paid
representative.
As a matter of fact, I am almost sure and I will check it for you.
Mr. Kennedy. Could we get that again ?
Mr. HoFFA. I do not believe that Mr. Lower is a paid representative
of the teamsters union, but I believe that he is a special agent, and I
will check that, also, and give you the answer.
The Chairman. What do you mean by "special agent"?
Mr. HoFFA. On certain assignments.
The Chairman. Sometimes they employ him?
Mr. HoFFA. On certain assignments.
The Chairman. On special assignments?
4992 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy, First, what did you do with the $25,000 from Mr.
Lower?
Mr. HoFFA. Bought bonds.
Mr. Kennedy, You bought bonds ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. 'VVliat kind of bonds ?
Mr. HoFFA. Fruehauf Trailer.
Mr. Kennedy. You bought Fruehauf Trailer bonds?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you buy the Fruehauf Trailer bonds?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think it was the early part of last year or the
latter part of 1955. I am not sure.
Mr. Kennedy. Does Fruehauf have any bargaining relationship
with the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. Do they have any bargaining? Yes, sir. They came
off the stock market and a very bad investment, so far as I was con-
cerned. I don't want to hurt their stock. I just personally couldn't
carry the burden of the stock because I didn't have the money.
]\Ir. Kennedy. You borrowed the $25,000.
Mr. HoFFA. But it was a good investment as a financial transaction
if 3^ou could carry the loan.
Mr. Ivennedy. Did you pay interest to Mr. Lower ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Was any collateral put up ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you put a note up ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. I did sign a note for $50,000, or countersigned a
note for Mr. Lower for $50,000.
Mr. Kennedy. For what was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. To be able to go into the real-estate business. And I
have now signed one for $25,000 for Mr. Lower and I don't have any
security from him either.
Mr. Kennedy. What do you mean ? He wanted to go into the real-
estate business ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Where was he going into the real-estate business ?
Mr. HoFFA. He first started in Florida, I believe.
Mr. Ivennedy. That is where he has the lots ?
Mr. HoFFA. Then, I think he is in the real-estate business in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. He has lots down in Florida that he sells ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Ivennedy. AYliere did he borrow the money from ?
Mr. HoFFA. From a bank, I believe, in Florida, and he borrowed
the first money from Commonwealth, in Detroit, which I cosigned and
I think he now has a loan from one of the banks in Florida.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you cosign it for ?
Mr. HoFFA. $50,000 one time and $25,000 another. I
Mr, Kennedy. lie is paying interest to the bank on that?
Mr. HoFFA. I assume he is.
Mr, Kennedy, What bank was that ?
IMPROPER ACTIVrriES EST THE LABOR FIELD 4993
Mr. HoFFA. I believe the first one was Commonwealth, and I think
the second one was Commonwealth that I cosigned, and I believe, or
I don't laiow the name of the other bank.
Senator Mundt. Have you paid Mr. Lower back his $25,000?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir ; not yet.
Mr. I^NNEDY. We have a bank statement on this loan, the second
loan.
Mr. HoFFA. You are talking about the one on the Igloo?
Mr. Kennedy. The Igloo ? I didn't know that one. What is that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that is what Mr. Lower borrowed the money
for. ^
Mr. KJENNEDY. What is the Igloo ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is a drive-in arrangement.
Mr. Kennedy. Where is that?
Mr. HoFFA. In Detroit. I think that is the last one I cosigned
with him.
Mr, IVENNEDY. How much is that for ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it is $25,000. I am quoting this from memory,
and so if there is a correction I will have to give it to you.
Mr. KJSNNEDY. I think it is for Sun Valley and did you sign two
for Sun Valley or cosign two ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so. I think that I signed one for Sun
Valley. This could very easily be Sun Valley Co., and do you have
a $50,000 and a $25,000?
Mr. Kennedy. Let me have you look at it and then you can tell us.
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you because I don't think I ever saw those
papers. Even if I looked at them, I don't think that I could help you.
I will if you want.
Mr. Kennedy. I believe there is just one more.
Senator I\t.s. Mr. Chairman, while the counsel is looking up some-
thing, I would like to ask Mr. Holla again if he is through with his
list.
Mr. HoFFA. There is one more.
The Chairman. Let us proceed with the one more while counsel is
checking something.
Mr. HoFFA. $25,000 from Marold Marx.
The Chairman. When was that, Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think tliat was the latter part of 1955 or the early
part of 1956.
The Chairman. Was that secured in any way ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, and I have paid back, I believe — I am trying to do
this from recollection because, apparently, I did not get the figure
of what I paid back, but I think that I paid seven or eight thousand
dollars.
I have signed a note for it, excuse me. I did sign a note for it.
The Chairman. For this you had signed a note ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes.
The Chairman. Does that conclude your list now ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, but I want to say I may have signed a lot for
Lower and I am not sure and I am trying to run through my mind
here whether I did or not, and I will check it and let you know.
Senator Ives. There are some questions that still remain unanswered
here.
4994 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I take it, Mr, Hoffa, that you have given us a list of all that you
have borrowed and all that you owe at the present time, the amounts
borrowed being since 1952, is that correct ?
Mr. Hoffa. To the best of my recollection, I have tried to do it, yes,
sir.
Senator Ives. Well, all right. Nobody can do better than try to re-
collect and no one is trying to pin you down on this, but do you recol-
lect how much you owed at the beginning of 1953 ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think somewhere, a little better than $30,000.
Senator Imss. All of this that you have borrowed or you are relating
now has occurred since 1953 ?
Mr. Hoffa. Since January 1, 1953 or 1952. Some of it, as I say,
the first one I read off to you, I didn't have the dates, and it is some-
where from the latter part of 1952 into 1953, those loans.
Senator Ives. You probably have some in 1952 that are not there,
is that not right ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, if there is I can't recall them and I did my best
to recall them.
Senator Ives. But you thought as of January 1, 1953, you had owed
about $30,000?
Mr. Hoffa. Somewhere around there. Senator. I think there is
a record.
Senator Ives. All right. That being the situation, then, there is
something there that you still owe, I take it, because as I under-
stand
Mr. Hoffa. I think I owe around seventy-some thousand dollars.
Senator Ives. At the present time ?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct.
Senator I^tcs. That includes the $30,000 ?
Mr. Hoffa. Part of it, sir. Part of it was paid back.
Senator I-^^s. Your total indebtedness at the present time is
$70,000?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, on these loans ; yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Those loans?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. That does not include the $30,000 you are talking
about ?
Mr. Hoffa. No. Excuse me. I don't want to confuse you, but
maybe I am.
Senator Ives. I am trying to find out how much you owe.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, in part of 1952 and 1953, I borrowed the money
that I mentioned first without collateral, and then $20,000 of that
was paid back. So let's just figure up real quick. Koughly $18,000
would be owed in 1953, sir.
Senator Ives. What does that make the total indebtedness at the
present time?
Mr. Hoffa. Around about $70,000, 1 think.
Senator Ives. Around $70,000 ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think so.
Senator Ives. Some of that is secured by a note, I understand.
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir, $50,000, 1 believe.
Senator Ives. You had collateral back for the rest of it?
Mr. Hoffa. No, not the agents.
EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 4995
Senator I\^s. As I understand you to say when you talked about
the money that you borrowed from local 299, you did secure that with
your retirement, life insurance and matters of that type.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Senator Ives. Have you used any of those matters now to secure
this?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir ; I have not.
Senator Ives. "VVliat happens, if anything happens to you? Who
takes care of paying off this money that you owe ?
Mr. HoFFA. It would probably be a problem.
Senator Ives. Probably who ?
Mr. HoFFA. There will be a problem.
Senator I\^s. I would think there might be. I was wondering if
you were not carrying insurance to take care of that.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I have considerable insurance, but I don't know
whether or not it would take care of it. I have talked to my lawyers
and we have discussed the question of working out notes. However,
on the personal loans from the fellows that work with me, I question
whether they will take notes.
Senator Ives. That is the next thing I was coming to. Apparently
the people from whom you bori'owed this money do not care.
Mr. HoFFA. They do care ; yes, sir.
Senator Ives. They do ?
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine they would.
Senator Ives. Well, they do not ask for security. They do not care
whether it is secured or not. They do not care whether there is any
record of it or not. Is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, all I can say is that my friendship is such
with the individuals involved that I haven't had a problem.
Senator Ives. Let me tell you something about that, Mr. Hoffa.
I have had close friends in my life during past years and I have bor-
rowed from them now and then. I have had to. I think nearly
everybody has been up against that at one time or another. But I do
not remember having borrowed money from an individual without
giving them a note. It is very interesting to find someone who has
such friends as you have and to be able to borrow the way you have
borrowed. I just cannot understand it.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Ctjrtis. Mr. Hoffa, is my understanding correct that the
loan from Harold Mark of $25,000 was made in cash ? ^
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir, it was not. It was deposited in a bank. I be-
lieve either deposited in a bank or into a — well, it was deposited. I
don't know exactly how it was handled.
Senator Curtis. It was deposited after you received it?
Mr. Hoffa. After I borrowed it from him.
Senator Curtis. Yes. Now, in what form did he turn it over to
you?
Mr. Hoffa. Senator, he didn't turn the money over to myself.
I was attempting to buy the bonds and I believe it was deposited
with the bond company, if I am correct.
Senator Curtis. What was deposited with the bond company ?
Mr. Hoffa. The $25,000.
4996 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. In what form ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you, sir, offhand.
Senator Curtis. Where was the deposit made ?
Mr. HoFFA. Either Cleveland or New York. I can't recall.
Senator Curtis. If it was made in Cleveland, with whom was it
made?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand I can't tell you. I can get those facts for
you.
Senator Curtis. If it was made in New York, with whom was it
made?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know, but I can get those records for you, if
you want them.
Senator Curtis. But it is your belief that Harold Mark delivered
currency to the depositor ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. Harold Mark put into the bank or into the
stock broker house, one of the two, the money that I had borrowed
from him.
Senator Curtis. Yes, but was that in the form of a clieck or a draft
or was it currency ?
Mr. HoFFA. I offhand can't tell you, but I would assume that it
would be a draft of some description.
Senator Curtis. How long ago was that loan ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think it was last year. Senator, or just the latter part
of the year before.
Senator Curtis. I do not want to repeat here, because I was called
out in reference to the atomic energy bill on the floor of the Senate,
but did you tell us what Harold Mark's business was?
Mr. Hoffa. An auditor, sir.
Senator Curtis. Auditor?
Mr. Hoffa. AVlio has borrowed money, and I see Mr. Bellino mov-
ing around, so we won't disturb it, he has borrowed money from
both the union and from the health and welfare plan.
Senator Curtis. He has borrowed from the union and from the
health and welfare?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir, and put up collateral.
Senator Curtis. And put up collateral ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What is his business besides auditing?
Mr. Hoffa. I think he deals in some real estate, sir.
Senator Curtis. Is he a public auditor, or is most of his time given
to one client ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think public, sir.
Senator Curtis. What is Mr. Lower's business?
Mr. Hoffa. What is his position?
Senator Curtis. Business or occupation.
Mr. Hoffa. Real estate, sir. His primary business today is real
estate.
Senator Curtis. Where is Mr. Lower?
Mr. Hoffa. In Detroit.
Senator Curtis. You borrowed $25,000 from him. "\Miat year was
that?
Mr. Hoffa. I believe it was last year, sir.
Senator Curtis. How did he turn that $25,000 over to you?
IMPROPER ACTIVrriE'S IN THE LABOR FIELD 4997
Mr. HoFFA. In cash, sir.
Senator Curtis. In cash?
Mr. IIoFFA. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Where were you when the cash was turned over
to you?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe he delivered it to my house, sir.
Senator Curtis. You had previously talked to him about making
a loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. I had.
Senator Curtis. Where was that conversation?
Mr. HoFFA. Now you have me.
I couldn't tell you offhand.
Senator Curtis. Why did he deliver it to you in cash?
Mr. HoFFA. Because I asked him to, sir.
Senator Curtis. Why did you prefer cash?
Mr. HoFFA. Because I have always operated my expenditures in
cash.
Senator Curtis. And you made the request of him, that he secure
cash in which to make the loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were these other loans that were made to you in
cash made in that form, with currency, because you requested it ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you follow this practice as a general rule of all
of your transactions in cash, or were these loans the exception to
the rule ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. It is the general rule to operate in cash,
except recently I deposited some money in the bank and drew a check
out to take care of some legal expenses.
The Chairman. Mr. Iloffa, do you know where Mr. Mark got
his money ?
Mr. HoFFA. Do I know^ where he has his money ?
The Chairman. No. Where he got the money he loaned you.
Mr. HoPFA. He borrowed $25,000 from the union, and Mr. Mark
then loaned me $25,000. But he put up the security for the loan.
I did not have security to feel that I should borrow that kind of
money. Therefore, he borrowed it and put up the security for it, sir,
to protect the union.
The Chairman. Do you know what union he borrowed from?
Mr. HoFFA. 299, sir. I think 299 was the first loan, sir. Then he
borrowed additional moneys from 299 and 337 jointly.
The Chairman. I hand you here — I do not know whether you have
ever seen these checks or not, you may have — photostatic copies
Mr. HoFFA. I think they are 299 and 337, aren't they, sir?
The Chairman. 337.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I thought you said 237.
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
The Chairman. I hand you here a check dated October 1, 1956,
in the amount of $12,500, drawn on the Bank of the Commonwealth,
Detroit, Mich., in favor of Mr. Harold L. Mark, on the Food and
Beverage Drivers Union, Drivers, Warehousemen and Helpers Local
Union, No. 337. See if you identify it. I do not know whether you
have ever seen it or not.
4998 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. HoFFA. We reproduced it and gave it to Mr. Bellino.
The Chairman. Thank you.
That check may be made exhibit No. 157.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 157," for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5275.)
The CHAiRMAisr. I hand you another check dated a few days
later — I am sorry. It is an earlier check dated June 11, 1956,
on the same bank, drawn by the Food and Beverage Drivers,
Warehouse and Helpers Local Union, No. 337, in the amount of
$50,000 in favor of Mr. Mark._
Is that one of the checks involved in the transaction?
( Document handed to witness. )
Mr. HoFFA. Not in the transaction, sir, I am talking about at all,
either one of them.
The Chairman. Was that a loan to Mr. Mark ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, it was from 337, so I was told. I did not
make the loan, but I was so told when I saw the check. I want to
say, sir, that
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. My attorney tells me that 299 was part of it. I don't
believe it. We will have to check the records.
The Chairman. In other words, maybe 299 put up part of the
money ?
Mr. HoFFA. It could have. But I don't believe it.
The Chairman. Of course that check does not show it, I don't
know. But that shows that one union put up $50,000.
Mr. HoFFA. I think that is correct, and the money has been paid
back in both instances.
The Chairman. 299 is your union ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
The Chairman. Are you an officer in the other one, 337 ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
The Chairman. That check may be made exhibit 158.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 158," for refer-
ence, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5276.)
Mr. HoFFA. I want to say that these loans have been paid back
to the local unions by Mr. Mark in full, with interest, and they
were
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. HoFFA. And I am quite positive that they were properly
collateralized.
The Chairman. Do you know if 299 — you say you do not know,
but you can check the records, I assmne, to ascetrain whether 299
put up any money.
Mr. HoFFA. I think Mr. Bellino and myself checked. I think he
has the figures there from Frank Collins, the secretary-treasurer.
So you can have an answer here. It slips my memory because I
don't have it in writing, but I think we did check that out. I think
you have the information, sir.
The Chairman. We may have. I don't know.
Senator Curtis. To you knowledge, Mr. Hoffa, was tlie rank and
file of the members of these two unions advised fully as to this trans-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 4999
action that the union money was first loaned to Mr. Mark and Mr.
Lower and then in turn loaned to you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Pardon me, sir, just Mr. Mark.
Senator Cuktis. Just Mr. Mark ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were the rank and file union members whose
funds were involved informed of the full transactions, not only the
loan to Mr. Mark but Mr. Mark's loan back to you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, insofar as my organization, I can only now
speak for my own local where I conduct the meeting;s. I have
taken it up with my members, the question of having a right to loan
money, and have approval. I note the loans on my financial state-
ments which are quarterly and annually reported, and which are
posted annually for the members to have copies of.
Senator Curtis. Yes. Now my question : Was the full story given
to the rank and file members that this money was loaned to Mr.
Mark, and that Mr. Mark, in turn, loaned the money back to you?
Was that information given to the rank and file of your members?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know whether I reported it or not. I could
have reported it. I generally report everything that happens in our
local to the membership, and I wouldn't hesitate to report this and
get approval for it.
Senator Curtis. Are you sure you reported it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I say I am not quite sure, but I say I generally report
in detail the financial statement.
Senator Curtis. The financial statement, did that shoAv what Mr.
Mark did with the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, but I say I would report it to the members about
the transactions.
Senator Curtis. Do you mean you would give them an oral report?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you think you might have given them an oral
report on this ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would assume, to the best of my recollection, that I
probably did. I generally do.
Senator Curtis. How many members are there in your union ?
Mr. HoFFA. Around 14,000, sir.
Senator Curtis. How many attended meetings ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, we have divisional meetings. We have three di-
visional meetings so we can give the membership an opportunity to
appear at those meetings at the most opportune time.
I would judge through the course of the year that either the mem-
bers or the stewards that they elect attend those meetings quite
regularly.
Senator Curtis. What would you say the net worth of that union
is?
Mr. HoFFA. Around $1,650,000, somewhere around there.
Senator Curtis. And that is what union ?
Mr. HoFFA. My organization ?
Senator Curtis. That is 299 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir ; the one I belong to.
Somewhere around that figure. Senator.
Senator Curtis. Is the same business transacted in each divisional
meeting ?
5000 IMPROPER ACTIVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, it is not. They are different type drivers, ware-
housemen, and dockmen.
Senator Curtis. If you told the rank and file about this transaction
of Mark's loan, about the loan to him and his loan to you, would that
be told in each of the three division meetings ?
Mr. HoFFA. That I don't know. I don't always conduct those meet-
ings.
Senator Curtis. Then it is your opinion, is it not, that the most of
the union members did not know about this money endmg up in your
hands again?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it isn't my opinion. It is the fact that those
members who attend the meetings talk to other members and I don't
know how many they talked to.
Senator Curtis. But you are not sure whether you advised them of
that?
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon ?
Senator Curtis. You are not sure whether you advised them of
that?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall specifically. I generally did. I made a
complete report, and if I missed it, I will be happy to make it at the
first meeting in September to all three divisions.
Senator Curtis. I do not think it will be necessary, now.
Mr. HoFFA. At least they would have knowledge so they will have
jio question after I explain it to them, and I am sure they will vote.
Senator Curtis. If you gave them this information, when did you
doit?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall.
Senator Curtis. Before or after the transaction ?
Mr. HoFFA. It would be depending upon the time of the month that
the transaction was made. I couldn't tell you.
We have our meetings the second Monday, the second Wednesday,
and the second Sunday.
Senator Curtis. It is your contention that you might have unfolded
this entire transaction before it was consummated ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I certainly wouldn't have hesitated in doing it.
Senator Curtis. I did not ask you if you hesitated. I asked you if
you did it.
Mr. HoFFA. To my recollection, I can't tell you at this moment and
be positive.
(At this point. Senator Kennedy withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy. To get it straight, the loan of 337 to Harold Mark
was $175,000, the 2 loans. Do you think that your local also loaned
an equal amount ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, I do not. I think it was a proportionate share.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You think that that was split up between the two
locals ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know exactly how, but it strikes me there was a
proportionate share.
Mr. IvENNEDY. And $25,000 that came from
Mr. HoFFA. I may say that there is sufficient collateral, I believe
over twice as much for security for the loan today.
JNIr. I^NNEDY. $25,000 of this went to Harold Mark and he, in turn,
loaned the money to you, is that right ?
IMPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5001
Mr. HoFFA. Harold Mark loaned me $25,000. Whether or not it
was Harold Mark then was in need of a loan, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. But it was during this period of time in which the
union was loaning him money ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Are you talking about the $25,000 loan ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. That is what I thought you were.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. All you are talking about is 299, is that correct ?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Well, you
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. Let's don't get the record muddled up.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Kennedy, may I speak a word? I know I
don't belong in here.
Mr. KJENNEDY. I just waut the facts.
Mr. HoFFA. You will get the facts. Let me give them to you.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Mr. HoFFA. I will give you the facts. There will be no question
about it.
The $25,000 loan was made from 299, I am quite sure. Additional
moneys were loaned to Mr. Mark which I believe were jointly loaned.
I believe that is the way you will find it in the records.
Mr. IvENNEDY. So we understand, we have two checks here that
total, I believe, $175,000.
Mr. HoFFA. I think you are
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know, and I am not going to quarrel with you.
Mr. Kennedy. I am not quarreling at all.
Mr. HoFFA. On this basis, that the total amomit of money, other
than the $25,000, let's put it that way, was jointly owned.
Mr. Kennedy. But there was, in addition to the $175,000
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so. Bob.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you listen to my question ?
(At this point. Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA. Sure I hear your question.
Mr. Kennedy. AVould you listen to the whole thing?
The Chairman. Proceed. Let counsel ask the question.
Mr. Kennedy. There are two checks here totaling $175,000. As I
understand it from your testimony, and perhaps I misunderstand it,
there is another $25,000 loan. Now, I am wrong in that?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe there are two checks there, unless you
have them there, that total that much money, insofar as the loan from
the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Let us settle that first.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, straighten it out.
Mr. Kennedy. See if I can add it right: 10-1-56, $125,000, and
6-11-56, $50,000.
Mr. HoFFA. You have 299's check there ?
Mr. Kennedy. No.
Mr. HoFFA. Let's wait until we get that.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what I am asking, Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer it, Mr. Chairman, until I see the checks
involved.
5002 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy, ^Vliat I want to try to find out is in addition to the
$175,000 that was loaned from 337, in addition to that loan there was
a loan of a certain amount of money from 299, is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, now, I don't believe you are correct.
Mr. Kennedy. I am not saying
Mr. HoFFA. I would want to cheek the record before I would give
you an answer.
The Chairman. The question is here. One of these checks is $12,-
500 and the other is $125,000. Is that right ?
Mr. Kennedy. It is $12,500.
^Ir. HoFFA. That is what I thought it was.
The Chairman. These two checks that have been presented
Mr. HoFFA. There is a little bit of difference.
The Chairman. Total $62,500.
Where is the $125,000?
Mr. Kennedy. That was my mistake, Mr. Chairman. That was a
misleading figure.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now can we go back? These are the checks from
337, which I understand. Was there another loan of an equal amount
from local 299 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know whether it was equal or not. There was
another loan.
Mr. Kennedy. Another loan from 299?
Mr. HoFFA. I gave you the figures, Mr. Bellino. What did you do
with them? You ought to report this thing fairly. You have the
figures. You ought to report them.
Mr. Belling. I would say you did not give us any figures on 299.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
(The witness confered with this counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, orally I did get the figures. I tried to cooper-
ate so I could answer intelligently here your questions. If I did not
give them to him, I certainly made a mistake, but I thought I did. If
I didn't, when he comes in we will certainly produce them.
The Chairman. All right. Let us see if we can straighten it out.
So far we have $62,500 in two checks. These were both on 337, not
on 299.
Mr. HoFFA. I would like to see those checks. That don't seem right,
Senator. Would you please let me see those checks ?
Is that correct?
Well, if it is correct, I don't need to see them. No use tying up the
committee. Go ahead.
The Chairman. Those are the two you saw before. These are other
copies of them.
^Documents handed to witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. $12,500 and $50,000.
Mr. HoFFA. $62,500.
The Chairman. Can we all agree on that now?
Mr. Hoffa. I think that is right, sir.
The Chairman. All right. $62,500. Both of those came from 337,
local 337?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
EMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5003
The Chairman. The question is, as I understand it : Is there another
check or is there another loan in addition to that from 299 ?
Mr. IIoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. There is another one. Do you remember the
amount of it ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. I thought I had the amount. If I didn't, I
will have to get it. I certainly don't remember it.
The Chairman. All right. Do you have a record of the other loan ?
Mr. Kjennedy. No ; we do not. We have not seen the books or rec-
ords of 299, which is not Mr. Hoffa's fault. We do not have those
figures available.
Mr. Hoffa. We will get them.
The Chairman. You do not remember. The record will be the
best evidence.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. KJENNEDY. If you can't answer the question, say so.
There was a loan of $25,000, as I understand it, that went from 299
to Mr. Mark and he loaned you $25,000.
Mr. HoFFA. I say that Mr. Mark loaned me $25,000. Whether or
not it was money that he had saved up or not, I do not recall, or
whether it was money that he borrowed and then loaned to me I do not
recall. I would have to check the record with Mr. Mark before I could
give you an answer.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell me this : What does Mr. Mark do other than be
an accountant?
Mr. HoFFA. I told you he was in real estate.
Mr. Kennedy. In real estate ?
Mr. HoFFA. I am quite sure he is in real estate.
The Chairman. Let the chair make a suggestion at this point so
we get these figures straightened out.
You ascertain as soon as you can whether a loan was made along
about the same time by local 299, stating the amount of it and the
date of it, to Mr. Mark.
Mr. Hoffa. Then we will submit it to you ?
The Chairman. Sir?
Mr. HoFFA. When he comes into Detroit, we will work it out. Is
that all right?
Mr. Kennedy. Maybe you can get it tonight.
Mr. HoFFA. Not tonight you won't. They will be closed.
The Chairman. Let us proceed now.
That is still in question, as to whether there was one and the amount
and date of it.
Let us proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Mark is an accountant and he is also in the real
estate business?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe he is in the real estate business.
Mr. Kennedy. Does he have any business relationship with the
Dorf man's, do you know ?
Mr. Hoffa. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not know ?
Mr. Hoffa. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Does he have anything to do with insurance ?
89330— 57— pt. 13 6
5004 IMPROPEK ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA, I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not know ?
Mr. HoFFA. Actually, I don't know. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if he knows Mr. Phil Weiss?
Mr. HoFFA. Phil who?
Mr. Ejennedy. Phil Weiss?
Mr. HoFFA. I would think he would. I am giving you a guess. I
can't give you a guaranty.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Do you know any business relationship between Mr.
Weiss and Mr. Mark ?
Mr. HoFFA. That I wouldn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know. You never heard of any ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator McNamara.
Senator McNamara. I know a Phil Weiss. I wonder if we can
identify him so I can get straightened out in my mind.
Mr. HoFFA. It was not the Phil Weiss who was a former mediation
board chairman in Detroit. It is a Bill Weiss in New York.
Senator McNamara. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mark charge you interest on the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. He did not.
The Chairman. I understood he was paying interest on the loans
he secured from the union. Is that correct ?
Z\h\ HoFFA. He is paying interest. I have not worked out the ques-
tion of the interest with him. I assumed he will add it. I should
have said that there will be interest, but I haven't paid it. Let's put
it that way.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. I want to go back to the other loan that you made
from Mr. Lower, from the Sun Valley, Inc.
Mr. HoFFA. Go ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a union account at the bank where you
went to get this loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. Where he went to get the loan, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. There was a union account ?
Mr. PIoFFA. That is riglit. Several of them.
Mr. Kennedy. I notice here in the application for loans, the second
one which I believe was for — how much ? $25,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell me this : Did you have conversations and dis-
cussions with the bank officials prior to the time that they loaned
this money ?
Mr. HoFFA. I sure did.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they anxious to loan the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think they must have been. They wouldn't have
loaned it otherwise.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any discussion at the same time about
what union accounts they would have or would not have if they did
not loan the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. Wh?it is that ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5005
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any discussion between you and the offi-
cials of the bank as to what union accounts, teamster union accounts
the bank would keep or what new accounts they might have ? '
Mr. HoFFA. I think when they signed that note they had the
accounts they got today.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any discussion in connection with the
bank officials?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall any.
Mr. Kennedy. On the application for loan, on the question of
whether they are going to loan the $25,000 to Mr. Lower of Sun Valley
Inc., it states "Branch manager, do you recommend?" and the brancli
manager evidently puts "Only if pressure is applied from union."
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I am not responsible for the bank manager. To
the best of my recollection I just don't recall. But I don't think there
was any discussion. They may have called me up and asked me would
1 cosign or something. That may have happened.
The Chairman. I do not know whether you mean to say that or
not.
You said there may have been pressure on the part of the union ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. I didn't say that. I said about discussion, sir.
The Cpiairman. You have no explanation of why the branch mana-
ger of the bank would make such a notation ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have obsolutely no explanation.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Is that the Commonwealth ?
Is that the Commonwealth ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. I have no explanation.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman ?
We should be able to button that one down, Mr. Hoffa. If you
had exerted any pressure on the bank, you would have remembered
it, would you not ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know what kind of pressure I would put on
them.
Senator Mundt. Had you told the bank "Either you make this loan
or you will lose our accounts"?
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly didn't say anything like that.
Senator Mundt. Did you say anything like that ?
Mr. Hoffa. I didn't tell anybody that. That is the best of my rec-
ollection, at least.
Senator Mundt. Had you done it, you would have remembered it.
You are pretty familiar with banks.
Mr. Hoffa. To the best of my recollection, I don't think I had a
discussion with anybody concerning the last loan. I just don't believe
I had one. I may have had a discussion, if he called me on the phone,
but certainly nothing other than ordinary as to whether I would
sign it, to the best of my recollection.
Senator Mundt. Can you, without the qualifying phrase "to the best
of your recollection," say categorically "I did not threaten to take
the union accounts from the bank unless they made this loan to my
friend Mark" ? Can you say that ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, now, I am not going to make such a statement be-
cause I don't know what could be considered pressure.
[){){){) IMPIlOrKll ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senalor Mitndt. I defined it for you. I said, Can you say without
(]UMliryinii- i( by the phrase 'Mo the best ol" your iveoneelion" — can
you say delinilely, "I, ,Iiinn)y HolVa, dici not tell any ollicers of the
bank 'I'nless you loan that money to my friend Lo^Yer, 1 am going to
take our accounts oulof the bank' '"(
JNlr. HoFKA. Well, 1 uill not make a ])ositive statement until 1 have
cliecked willi the bank manager \vl\ether or not he and 1 ever talked
about it.
To the best of my recollection, 1 cannot lemember ever having talked
to them about this particular loan.
Senator Mi'Nnr. \U\\ you leave the implication that you might have
made sucii a statement to the banlv ofruH-rs.
Mr. lloFFA. ]\o, 1 don't leave the im[)lication. If you want to leave
it, you can leave it if you want, Senator, but 1 would rather not make
a statement of something here that 1 don't positively know. I think
you don't want it on the record if I don't positively know.
Senator Munot. We want you tell us what you know, and that is
why I was trying to lind out whether you could say j)ositively you were
sure you never made a statement of that kind.
Mr. lIoFFA. As I say, 1 would have to check. To the best of my
recollection, to my meuuu-y. I could not tell you that 1 made any such
a statement, or 1 didn't, but 1 don't recall it.
Senator Mundt. In other words, if the bank could say that you did
make such a statement, you are not prepared to deny it?
Mr. lIoFFA. AVell, after I talk to them. I will give you an answer.
Senator AluxoT. What is that?
Mr. lIoFFA. After 1 talk to him, 1 will give you an answer.
Senator Ati'xnr. All I'ight. "\'ou cannot give it now.
The CuAiu.AiAx. Are there any other questions by memWrs of the
conunitteo?
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Senator MoKamaha. I can visualize pressure in this instance mean-
ing that if I had an account at the baidv and T wanted a loan, and it
was for a large amount, and the bank said to me, ''AVell. I won't loan
it to you," 1 miaht say, "Well, if you don't, I will take my business to
some other bank."
Is that the pressure you have in mind when you are discussing this?
It is not union pressure. It is not union activity at the bank.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know what they are discussing. Until I talk to
the bank, Senator McNamara, I don't c^ire to become involved in a
]H>sitive statement with something I am not familiar with.
Senator iMcNA:>rAi{A. INTaybe this was an accounting of the indi-
vidual to the b(vu-d of directors. lie lias to account for the loaning
of money, and he may have insinuated more or less that "I am forced
to do that or I will lose the accounts."
Mr. IIoFFA. It could be.
Senator McNamaka. I do not see that there would be anything
irregular about saying to my banker, if I had one, "If you don't do
thus and so, I will move my account somewhere else."
1 f that is pressure, it is common pressure used every day.
Mr. lloFFA. It is very peculiar. We have been doing business with
this bank a long time and we are still doing busmess with them. That
is all I can tell you. __
The Cii.uRM AN. Senator Curtis?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD .5007
Senator Cnrnis. Mr. Tfonu, I would doubt very much if you threat-
ened the bank or made any blunt statement of what you would do
if that loan was not made. I tliink you are more astute than that. I
would think that whatever was done, was sort of a gentle sugj^estion.
Did you have any conversation with them at the time this loan was
discu.ssed relative to the fact that tlie teamsters had a deposit in the
bank ?
Mr. lioFFA. You are talking about this $25,000 loan, is that right?
Senator Curtis. Yes, sir.
Mr. HotT-'A. I couldn't give you an answer, because if I talked to the
bank it would be no dill'erent than talking to any other individual, and I
certainly wouldn't store it away in my mind. So I can't give you an
answer.
Senator Curtis. The situation is not quite parallel with what Sena-
tor McNaniara referred to. lie said that if he was asking for a loan
at a bank, he would not hesitate to tell them that he would make certain
decisions in his favor if they did not grant it. That is all right if
they are dealing with their own money. But the deposits in that bank
were the teamsters' money and not yours; is that true?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Curtis. Awhile ago when you were testifying about these
loans being handled in cash, I understood you to say that m all of your
business transactions up until recently you made it a practice to handle
them in cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. For a number of years, as I can remember back, it was
a general practice of myself of handling my transactions by cash.
Senator CuR'i'is. How recent was it you made that change?
Mr. HoFFA. When I became involved in a lavv^suit and had to borrow
money from a bank on my home and my cottage to pay the law fee, I
then had a bank account opened for the purjDose of drawing a check.
Senator Curtis. Was that recently? I mean in the last year?
Mr. HoFFA. Within this year, sir.
Senator Curtis. But prior to that, all your transactions were in
cash ?
Mr. IToFFA. Primarily. There may have been some money orders
or something like that. Senator.
Senator Curits. I am not going to go into the details at this time,
but I want to ask one question: If you had made any political contri-
butions prior to the recent months, would they have been made in cash?
Mr. IIoFFA. The reason, what, sir?
Senator Curtis. With the exception of recent months.
Mr. IIoFFA. Oh, all right.
Senator Curtis. Would those contributions have been made in cash?
Mr. HoFFA. If there were political contributions made to State, city,
or county employees, out of union funds, it would have been paid by
check.
If I made, myself, a donation, then — or anybody else would make
one — I would assume it would either have to be on their bank accounts
or in cash ; and if I made it, it would be in cash.
Senator Curtis. This Marshall DuBack that you mentioned that you
borrowed $2,000 of and still owe, he is a business representative of ■
Mr. HoFFA. 337.
Senator Curtis. Local 337, and that is the same local that is in-
volved in the loan that we just discussed ?
5008 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Cuetis. Do you know whether that was a loan of his per-
sonal funds or not ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I certainly assume that it was.
Senator Curtis. You do not know that?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, not until I ask him I couldn't, but the thought
never raised in my mind.
Senator Curtis. Do 3'ou remember the incident of borrowing that
money ?
That was quite awhile ago.
Mr. HoFFA. Quite awhile ago.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Mundt. Did I understand you earlier in your testimony
this morning? I thought you said, in answer to a question by Senator
Kennedy, that you and your wife kept a joint bank account. Were
you talking then about a savings account as against a checking account?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir; I said a joint income-tax return. I have a joint
safe-deposit box with my wife, but I do not have a joint savings
account.
Mr. Kennedy. On this question of the loan that was to be made
out of this bank, the loan that was to be made was to be made to Mr.
Lower in connection with the Sun Valley Enterprises that he had ; is
that right ?
Mr. HoFFA, That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And, in connection with what you said when he
came for the second loan, how much was borrowed in the first loan
to Mr. Lower ?
Mr. HoFFA. If I remember correctly, I think it was $50,000.
Mr. Kennedy. I note here in connection with what we have been
talking about that the note on this first loan states :
About a year ago we l;>st a teamster account of $800,000
Mr. HoFFA. Yes ; they lost my account, and I will tell you why, if you
want to know.
Mr. Kennedy, Do you want to wait until I finish —
through some misunderstanding. We are trying to get this account back and
a welfare account at the National Bank of Detroit that runs over a million dollars.
If we cannot take care of them, they propose to go to the City Bank and no
doubt we will lose more accounts.
They then made this loan of $50,000 to Mr. Lower.
Mr. HoFFA. If they want to make an excuse for the failure to have
common sense, that is their business. But the actual fact is that sev-
eral years back, and not just last year and not when Lower was in Sun
"Valley, I sent a driver over to borrow $500 from the bank, who needed
it very bad, and the bank rejected the driver and asked him to have
a cosigner on it even though we offered to guarantee the loan. I told
them, and I would still tell them tomorrow, that if they cannot loan a
driver of our organization who has an interest in the deposits that they
had in their bank, then it was the type of bank we shouldn't do busi-
ness with.
Mr. Kennedy. You could loan, however, out of your local, $62,500
to Mr. Harold Mark in New York, but you didn't loan this driver
$500?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5009
Mr. HoFFA. Well, when you get into 299's records, you will find out
there are a lot of loans to drivers. And you will find that there is no
interest on the loans, either.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, on this Lower project of Sun Valley, did
the teamsters have any connection with that?
Mr. HoFFA. From a sponsoring situation.
Mr. Kennedt. You sponsored that. How did you do that?
Mr. HoFFA. We sponsored it on the basis that our members could
have the first opportunity to buy lots at a reduced price, I think, of
$250. I am not quite positive. Those same lots today are worth $800
to $1,000.
Mr. Kennedy. So I can understand it, a loan had been made of some
$75,000, two loans had been made of $75,000, to Mr. Lower in connec-
tion with this Sun Valley project; the loans had come from this bank ;
that Mr, Lower had then loaned you, as I understand it, $25,000 ; that
the teamsters in this project in Sun Valley were a sort of sponsoring
organization for this project?
Mr. HoFFA. Only from the standpoint of giving our members an
opportunity to buy lots at a reduced price.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me show you these, Mr. Hoffa.
When was the $25,000 that you got from Mr. Lower ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it was sometime last year.
Mr. Kennedy. 1956 ? Just about the same time that the teamsters
were sponsoring this ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I think it goes back farther than that.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, during the same period of time ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, I don't think so. It could be.
The Chairman. I hand you here what purports to be photostatic
copies of advertisements regarding the Sun Valley project. You may
examine them and state if you are familiar with them. There are
four of them, I believe.
(Documents were handed to the witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. I note here, Senator, that each one of them say $150
a lot. Is that what we are referring to ?
The Chairman. Yes. You had given some testimony regarding it,
that they would get them at a discount.
Mr. Hoffa. $150 here according to this announcement. But I am
not responsible for the propaganda put out by Sun Valley.
The Chairman. You don't know. Is that a Sun Valley ad or is
that a union ad ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, this is their ad.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Hoffa. This is their ad ?
The Chairman. Their ad?
Mr. Hoffa. To the best of my knowledge, it is.
The Chairman. Do you identify them ? Had you seen them before?
Mr. HoFA. I don't believe I did, Senator. I would have no reason
to. I don't think so.
The Chairman. Well, they are not identified, but thej may be made
an exhibit for reference only, so if any other questions are asked
about them, we will know what we are talking about. They will be
exhibit 159 for reference only.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 159" for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
5010 IMPROPEK ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. KJENNEDY. You didn't have any interest in the Sun Valley
project ?
Mr. HoFFA. What's that?
Mr. Kennedy, You didn't have any interest with Mr. Lower?
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. You didn't ask me that question.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you?
Mr. PIoFFA. I have an option to buy an interest in Sun Valley, but
I have not exercised the option.
Mr. Kennedy. What does that mean ?
Mr. HoFFA. Exactly what I said.
Mr. Kennedy. You are going to buy the whole of Sun Valley ?
Mr. HoFFA. Wliat is that ?
Mr. Kennedy. It is an option to buy the whole ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. I have an option to buy a percentage. What
it is I can't tell you at this moment.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you get that option ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think maybe a year ago; maybe longer. I can't re-
call. It is when I signed the note for the property.
(At this point Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room).
Mr. Kennedy. Is that about the time that he loaned you the
$25,000?
]NIr. HoFFA. No, I don't think so. I have disclosed this to Internal
Revenue and there is no question about it.
Mr. Kennedy. I am just trying to get the facts. It says here, "En-
tire Sun Valley program lias been endorsed by Florida Chamber of
Commerce and your joint council."
Is that the joint council of the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. 43.
Mr. Kennedy. "Every detail of your business transaction can be
handled by your local business agent."
Mr. HoFFA. Each agent was trying to see if any member wanted a
lot so they could save $150 as a courtesy.
Mr. Kennedy. "Your investment has eveiy safeguard."
"Florida homesites in Sun Valley. Stake your claim in the teams-
ters model city of tomorrow. Live better for less."
These were passed around to all the business agents, were they ?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. What were the instructions to the business agents ?
Mr. HoFFA. It wasn't only instructions. For your information,
there was a TV program sponsored by Sun Valley, advertising to the
members their opportunity to buy these lots at a reduced price, and
I think you will see on some of the advertisements you have there,
that the agents were going to help those members who desired to buy
lots.
Mr. Kennedy. And during this period of time, you had an option
to buy an interest in this project yourself ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know if it was that particular time or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, when did you get your option ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know offhand. It would be 1955 or 1956. I
don't know. What are those dated ?
Mr. Kennedy. These are 1955 and 1956. When did you get your
option ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you offhand.
IMPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5011
Mr. Kennedy. It saj^s here, "See your business agent." Everybody
was told that they could see their business agent about this matter?
Mr. HoFFA. Not only on that. They were told on TV by a regular
show that we were attempting to give our business agents the benefit
of being able to buy property in Florida at a
Mr. Kennedy. "V^Hio sponsored the TV program ?
Mr. HoFFA. Sun Valley, I believe.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the teamsters sponsor it at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe we did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell them at that time that you had an op-
tion to buy an interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. Who should I tell ?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Did you tell the business agents when they weren't
around ?
Mr. IIoFFA. Certainly I didn't tell the business agents, because no-
body thought to inquire and I didn't think to tell them.
Mr. Ejennedy. Did you tell them that you had this interest, that
Mr. Lower loaned you $25,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly did not. That was my private and personal
business.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you send any business agents down to Florida
to look this matter over ?
Mr. HoFFA. I sent three business agents down so they could in-
telligently report back to the membership whether the property as
attempted to be advertised in the paper was not good property. There
was likewise some film taken by one of the agents that went down.
Our stewards were called into a meeting to show them the property
that they would have the opportunity of buying at a reduced price.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio paid for the trip of your business agents to
Smi Valley?
Mr. HoFFA. The local union, I assume.
Mr. Kennedy. Did any go from your local union ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know if they did or not, but I wouldn't hesitate
to send one.
Mr. Kennedy. Was this 1955 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't knoAv that ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. They were to go down there and report back about
the Sun Valley project?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, so that we would make sure that our
members weren't being cheated.
Mr. Kennedy. I would think that perhaps you could check that
yourself, through your business relationships with Mr. Lower.
Mr. HoFFA. If I had gone down to Florida, I could do it. But they
had more time and they went down. If I went down, you would say
that I made the report as such because I had an interest in it.
Mr. I^NNEDY. During this period of time was when you had the
option to purchase an interest?
Mr. HoFFA. It is possible. I don't know.
Mr. KJENNEDY. How we got into this loan business was about the
$20,000— your relationship with the P. M. L. Co., Mr. Matheson.
Mr. HoFFA. What has that got to do with the question ?
5012 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. "V^Hien we originally started on this, we were trying
to find out where the $20,000 came from.
Mr. HoFFA. We didn't originally start on that at all. Just check
the record and you will find out that you didn't start on the P. M. L.
The P. M. L. came in the middle of the discussion.
Mr. Kennedy. All right, Mr. Hoffa. We were discussing the
P. M. L. Co.
Mr. HoFFA. Part of the discussion.
(At this point Senators McClellan and Ervin withdrew from the
hearing room. )
Mr. Kennedy. We were discussing the P. M. L. Co. and your
relationship with Mr. Matheson, and you stated, I believe, that you
invested $20,000 in cash in the P. M. L. Co.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What year was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I thought I gave it to you. I know I did. You have
it in your letter there, Mr. Kennedy.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. The record shows here 1952. I assume that is right
that was made up for me.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Mr. Matheson? How much did he
invest in that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you offhand. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know ?
Mr. Hoffa. No.
]SIr. Kennedy. How much did these other gentlemen ?
My. Hoffa. Offhand I couldn't tell you,
Mr. Kennedy. What was the P. M. L. Co. to do ?
^Ir. Hoffa. As I said before, it was to make investments, loans.
Mr. Kennedy. What kinds of investments?
Mr. Hoffa. Whatever was deemed a going proposition.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Ylio was handling it for you ?
Mr. Hoffa. Who was handling what?
Mr. Kennedy. Who was handling P. M. L. ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think there w^as only one transaction out of P. M. L.
The money was lost in the transaction.
Mr. Kennedy. "\^liat transaction? '\^'liat was the transaction?
Mr. Hoffa. I think it was an investment in a brewer3^, if I am not
]nistaken. They loaned money to a brewery. T am quite sure they
did.
Mr. Kennedy. What brewery?
]Mr. Hoffa. I think maybe
(The witneses conferred with his counsel.)
]\Ir. Hoffa. I don't know. It is in Flint. I can't give you an
answer.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, Matheson was on the
negotiating committee for the truckers with the teamsters; is that
right?
Mr. Hoffa. That is right. But it was my money.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he invest money also?
Mr. Hoffa. I assume he did. I don't know for sure.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know what the name of the brewery was ?
Mr. Hoffa. I can't think of it. Maybe Senator McNamara can
recall. It is the first one when vou so into Flint.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5013
Senator McNamara. I know exactly where it is, but I can't think
of it.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I think it was Old Heidelberg White Seal. I
will get the name and furnish it.
Senator Ives. Let's proceed, Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Who else was in that? Did anybody else have an
interest in the "Wliite Seal Brewery ?
Mr. HoFFA. I will have to find out. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not offhand ; I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't look at your little paper and find out ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't happen to have it because you didn't ask me.
If you asked me I would have it.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you had P. M. L. there.
Mr. HoFFA. I have P. M. L. on my own basis and that is all you
requested.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't have an interest in White Seal?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think I did. I can't tell you offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. You mean P. M. L. invested the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think so.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was operating White Seal Brewery at the
time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't have anything to do Avith it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I personally didn't have anvthing to do with operating
it.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't carry out the negotiations?
Mr. HoFFA. Negotiations? T\niat negotiations?
Mr. Kennedy. The negotiations, I expect, to get the $20,000 of
yours.
Mr. HoFFA. It was handled by lawyers.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wlio handled it?
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine my good counselor liere, Mr. Fitzgerald, and
other people.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Fitzgerald handled it?
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I refresh his recollection?
Senator Ives. It is all right, Mr. Attorney. You can get in there
and say what you have to say, if you want to. You can refresh his
memory, if you want to. He seems to have a pretty good one when
he wants to use it.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA, Well, apparently, from what I can gather, Matheson
had an interest in the brewery, and they took the voting stock as
security, voting trust as security. That is the best I can give you at
this moment.
Senator Ives. Does that answer your question, Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. Kennedy. Not completely.
Senator Ives. Go ahead and ask him some more.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I will get the entire transaction from Mr. Bellino
for you. It wound up in the bankruptcy court and everybody lost
1;heir money. I think if you want to wait until we get back, I will
give you the entire picture.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you mean back to Detroit?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, back to Detroit.
5014 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
A lot of people invested in the brewery, including myself, Mr.
Hoffa had nothing to do with it. Mr. Matheson was attempting to
make the brewery a going concern. We ran out of money, and
P. M. L. came along to
Senator Ives. Mr. Counselor, before you go further, you have not
been sworn, have you ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. No.
Senator Ives. You are giving testimony. Stand up and be sworn.
Mr. Fitzgerald. All right. I don't mind.
Senator Ives. Do you swear that the evidence you are giving in
this hearing is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is right.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. FITZGERALD
Mr. Fitzgerald. I would just as soon give it under oath to the best
of my recollection.
Senator Ives. Go ahead. That is what we are asking for.
(At this point Senator McClellan returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. We started out and we invested in a brewery.
Mr. Hoffa had nothing to do with it.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is "we"?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Matheson and about 25 or 30 people ; mostly
lawyers.
The capitalization was small, and we were getting no place. I
resigned. It was a dead horse. Mr. Matheson decided it wasn't.
Mr. Matheson joined with Mr. Louisell, Porritt, Mr. Hoffa, and they
came in and loaned the money to the brewery and took a voting trust
from everybody that had stock.
They attempted to run it. The steel strike came on. They couldn't
get cans. The beer was in the vats. The United States Government
inspectors wouldn't let it lay too long. They had to throw the beer
away and eventually it wound up in bankruptcy. Everybody con-
cerned lost their money.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
Mr, I^JENNEDY. Part of the money that was lost was the investment
of $20,000 that you made in P. M. L. ; is that right ?
Mr. Hoffa. You are right.
Mr. IvENNEDY. So the money from P. M. L. went into the White
Seal Brewery?
Mr. Hoffa. You are right.
Mr. Kennedy. Was your friend Mr. Brennan in this, too ?
Mr. Hoffa. Unfortunately, he was not. It would have saved me
some money if he had been in that trip.
(Members of the select committee present at this point in the pro-
ceedings: Senators McClellan, Ives, Kennedy, McNamara, Mundt,
and Curtis.)
Mr. KJENNEDY. Have you been in any other business relationship or
had any other business relationship or invested jointly in any other
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5015
business or company with Mr. Brennan, other than the ones we men-
tioned this morning ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I thought I gave it to you. I sent it to you.
"Well, let's see : In 1950, Mr. Hofl'a obtained a part interest in Joll
Properties.
Mr. Kennedy. Joll Properties ?
Mr. HoFFA. Along with Mr. Brennan. He had a percentage
interest.
Mr. KJENNEDY. What is the Joll Properties ?
IsitJ-o-1-1?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes. Just a minute. It is a resort for a girls' camp
that has a girls' camp 8 weeks a year in northern Wisconsin.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Who else is in that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Dorfman.
Mr. Kennedy. Mister who ?
Mr. HoppA. Mr. Dorfman.
Mr. Ivennedy. Mister who Dorfman ?
Mr. HoFFA. You are asking me something you didn't ask me to
bring, so don't hold me to what I am going to tell you. I will do the
best I can do. All right ?
I think that Paul Dorfman; Paul or Allan, or both, I don't know
which. I think Rose Dorfman.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Who is Rose Dorfman ?
Mr. HoFFA. Paul's wife. Myself, Brennan, and a lawyer I can't
think of offhand. I think those are the people that are in.
Phil Goodman is his name.
Mr. Kennedy. What was Mr. Allan Dorf man's job at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. What was his job? Allan Dorfman has an insurance
agency in Chicago.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Do they have any relationship with the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. They certainly do.
Mr. IvENNEDY. What about Rose Dorfman ?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand she is a partner.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Do they have a relationship with the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. The insurance company does.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Wliat insurance company is that ? Is it the Union
Casualty Co. ?
Mr. HoFFA. Of Illinois, I think. Is that what it is, of Illinois?
Mr. Kennedy. Plow much money did you put in that ?
Mr. HoFFA. You are talking about Joll Properties, are you not?
Mr. Ivennedy. Yes. That is the Jack-0-Lantern Lodge ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I will tell you offhand I have about $12,000 in it.
I say I got $12,000 in it. Part is a loan and part is money that I put
in the original investment, but which is which I can't tell you at this
moment because apparently I didn't bring that record with me because
nobody asked for it. I simply listed the company.
Mr. Kennedy. That is still operating, is it ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
5016 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did they make any other loans or have any other
investors ?
Mr. HoFFA. Who?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Joll Properties.
Mr. HoFFA. I think the ones that I gave you are the people that
have the combined interest in the property.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't they borrow some money from the Union
Casualty ?
Mr. HoFFA. $11,000.
Mr. Kennedy. How much ?
Mr. HoFFA. $11,000, and I think a considerable sum of money from
the bank.
Mr. IvENNEDY. What bank was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know. Some bank up in Wisconsin.
Mr. IvENNEDY. But they borrowed $11,000 from the Union Casualty
Co.?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. I^NNEDY. That is Dorf man's company ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. They made it as a loan and I also made
a loan.
Mr. IvENNEDY. And Bert Brennan was in that, too ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think Bert was.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you been in any other
Mr. HoFFA. I may say that you will find in the Hoffman records all
of this information whicli is more concise and complete than I can
give you.
]Mr. Kennedy. Again, we will go through my statement about the
Hoffman records. They did not finish their investigation, and the
Information is not contained there.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, it is.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you in any other business with Mr. Brennan ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes. I was in the local Columbus Trotting Track with
him.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Columbus?
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. I will give you that in a moment.
1948, Columbus Trotting Association.
Mr. KJENNEDY. How much interest did you have in that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think, and don't hold me to it, probably a
sixteenth.
Mr. Kennedy. And Brennan was interested in that, too ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. We eight had — well, a small interest.
I can't give you exactly what it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know how much investment you had in that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand at this moment, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the Coliunbus Trotting Association ?
Mr. HoFFA. A harness track.
Mr. KJENNEDY. A what ?
Mr. HoFFA. A harness track.
Mr. Kennedy. In Columbus, Ohio ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right. No, I don't think it was in Columbus.
It was in some small town in Ohio.
Mr. Kennedy. How long did that last ?
Mr. HoFFA. I sold it in 1949.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5017
Mr. Kennedy. And did Brennan have an interest in that? Did
he have some horses in that at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. He still has.
Mr. Kennedy. He still has horses? Was he racing them at that
track?
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't know that ? He has horses that
;Mr. HoFFA. Trotters.
Mr. Kennedy. Trotters. Did you have an interest in any of those
horses with him ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. That is one thing I kept out of.
Mr, Kennedy. You didn't get into horses. Did you have any ar-
rangement w^here he would bet money for you ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right. Each year.
Mr. Kennedy. Each year. How would that be arranged ?
Mr. HoFFA. Whatever he bets and I know nothing about the betting-
department, so whatever he bets he bets a like amount for me and we
turn it into the Internal Rvenue as to whatever our gains are.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you made much money in that fashion?
Mr. HoFFA. Each year we make money.
Mr. Kennedy. How much, approximately ?
Mr. HoFFA. Five — ten thousand dollars.
Mr. Kennedy. Just betting on his horses ?
Mr. HoFFA. What?
Mr. Kennedy. Just betting on his horses or on any horses?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio decides? Who does the betting, Brennan?
Mr. HoFFA. Certainly. Well, I don't know that he does the betting.
He must make the decision. I don't have the full knowledge of that.
Mr. Kennedy. You turn the money over to him and he decides how
the bets will be made ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. And every year you make five or ten thousand dol-
lars in betting ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you offhand exactly how much money we
made. It is on my income tax and you can check it.
. Mr. Kennedy. Have you been in any other projects with Brennan?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, let's see. Yes, we had a prizefighter in 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. What was his name ?
Mr. HoFFA. Embrill Davidson.
Mr. Kennedy. How long did that last ?
Mr. HoFFA. It says we discontinued in 1953. From 1952 to 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. Davidson?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did he fight, primarily out of where ?
Mr. HoFFA. Primarily out of Detroit, and where else he would go.
Mr. Kennedy. Were some of the teamsters funds used in connec-
tion with him at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not with him.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they used in connection with boxing at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I can't tell you. I would have to check.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the teamster money used for ?
5018 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. It was for amateur fights, sponsored amateur fights on
TV. I think we spent about $2,200 or somewhere around there. We
didn't get the rating on TV. We thought we should and we discon-
tinued it.
Mr. Kennedy. That had nothing to do with Davidson ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you had any other business interest with
Dorfman? Have you finished with Brennan and Columbus?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Let's finish with Brennan.
Mr. HoFFA. You wanted Brennan, didn't you ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. That is what I thought you said.
In 1951, a part interest in Northwest Oil Co., Brennan and I
bought.
Mr. ICennedy. How much money did you invest in that?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think we each put in $10,000.
Mr. Kennedy. $10,000? _
Mr. HoFFA. I think we did.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that check or cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. The Northwest Oil Co. ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. Invested in 1951?
]Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. You and Mr. Brennan?
Mr, HoFFA. That is what the record shows that was prepared for
me. I assume it is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you invest ? $10,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think we did.
Mr. Ivennedy. Was it by check or cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it was cash.
Mr. Kennedy. Each one of you put up $10,000 in cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think we did.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you tell us where you got that cash from ?
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine it was out of an accumulation of money that
we saved or had invested, whatever we did with it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was anybody else interested in that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, there was.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio else ?
Mr. HoFFA. Dr. Leo Perlman.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Dr. Leo Perlman ?
Mr. HoFFA. At that time he had the miion casualty insurance
company.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the insurance company with whom the team-
sters do business ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right. And Allan, I think, Paul Dorfman, and
I think, again, Phil Goodman, the lawyer.
Don't hold me to those names, but I am quite sure that is what was
in there.
Mr. Ivennedy. Do you think both Dorfmans, Allan and Paul
Dorfman, were interested in this also ?
Mr. HoFFA. I said Al and Paul, but I am not sure whether it was
both. I can't tell you that.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5019
Mr. IvENNEDY. Allan at that time had this interest in union casualty
company ?
Mr, HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. IvENNEDY. What happened to that Northwest Oil Co.?
Mr. HoFFA. It became defunct.
Mr. IvENNEDY. When?
Mr. HoFFA. 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get any money out of that?
Mr. HoFFA. No. We are still scrambling around, I think, trying
to get it to where and what. They haven't gotten it straightened
out yet.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they digging oil wells ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. It was buying and selling leases.
Mr. Ivennedy. Where ^
Mr. HoFFA. Williston Basin, in the Dakotas.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. That has gone out of operation, the Northwest Oil
Co.?
Mr. HoFFA. Eight.
Mr. I^NNEDY. It has been sold or what ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I think it was just dissolved.
Mr. Kennedy. And there has been no money out of the $10,000
that you invested ? You got no money out of it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall any.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Do you think it is possible that you could have
gotten money out of it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Do I think it is possible? I say we are still
Mr. IvENNEDY, No, I am not talking about up to now. Do you
think from the $10,000 investment that it is possible that you would
have gotten some money out of that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall any.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You don't recall. O. K., what other interests have
you had? Any others with Brennan or Dorfman and Perlman?
Mr. HoFFA. It seems to me that this is the extent I have been able
to put together. I am still having the accountants check it, but I
am of the opinion that you have got the situation. We will have to
check it to make sure.
Mr. Kennedy. What about the Terminal Realty Co.?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I guess that was maybe — what? How many
years ago ? Twenty years ago of fifteen years ago or something ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Here it is 1945 to 1947.
Mr. Kjinnedy. 1945 to 1947?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Ivennedy. Who were you in that business with ?
Mr. HoFFA. Oren DeMass.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio is Oren DeMass ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was a tailor, a poet.
Mr. Kennedy. A poet ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he anything other than a poet ?
Mr. HoFFA. A tailor, I said.
Mr. Kennedy. He was a tailor and a poet? Was he anything
besides that ?
89330— 57— pt, 13—7
5020 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know whether he was or not.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know of any other job that he held ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, at one time he held a political job, but I don't
think at this time.
Mr. KJENNEDY. What political job?
Mr. HoFFA. A liquor commissioner at one time.
Mr. IvENNEDY. So lie was a poet, a tailor, and a liquor commis-
sioner ?
Mr. HoFFA. He could have been, if you want to go backward.
Mr. Kennedy. He put some money in ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Oren DeMass and who else ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think Jean Cassrole.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Jean Cassrole ?
Mr. HoFFA. A fellow who owns a truck company.
Mr. Kennedy. Who else ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know who else.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. ]\Iatheson ?
Mr. HoFFA. Did he ?
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ?
Mr. HoFFA. I will tell you, I can't remember. Pie might have at
that, now that I think about it. Maybe he did.
Mr. Kennedy. What money did you put up for that?
Mr. HoFFA, It is mj^ recollection, the best that I can do, that we
borrowed $25,000 from Oren DeMass.
Mr. Kennedy. "V\liich of the three positions did he have at that
time ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was both a tailor and a poet.
Mr. IvENNEDY. And you got $25,000 from him ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I beg j^our pardon ?
Mr. Kennedy. You got $25,000 from him.
Mr. HoFFA. And he took the stock in turn as a collateral on the
loan, and then when we sold the company I think we made a small
profit, all of us.
Mr. Kennedy. "V^Hiat was the company ?
Mr. HoFFA. Terminal Realty, I think it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat does Terminal Realty Co. mean ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, we unloaded boats.
Mr. Kennedy. TNHiere did you operate ?
Mr. HoFFA. In Detroit.
Mr. KJENNEDY. You unloaded boats? Is there a port there?
Mr. HoFFA. There was a slip.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you own the slip ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it was part of the property, but I don't think
that it was actualy owned by the company. I think just the cranes,
the locomotives, the tracks and the entire operation and I think that
was incidental to the property. I don't think it was actually owned
by it.
Mr. Kennedy. And you disposed of that when? In 1947?
Mr. HoFFA. In 1947 ; yes.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Any other interest?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5021
Mr. HoFFA. "Well, I can't think of them offhand if there is. Maybe
you got one.
Mr. Kennedy. '\^niat about Theater Trucking ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, the Theater Trucking was one that wasn't actu-
ally— well, what happened was they went into business.
Mr. Kennedy. Who went into business ?
Mr. HoFFA. Theater Trucking. It was a very small operation. I
had a truck which I turned over to them. I say "I." It was my wife's
truck. We turned it over to them. They gave her, I think, $500 for
the truck. Whether or not I loaned them some money or they owed
us some money, I don't know what. But anyway, she wound up with
some stock in the company. The company went defunct.
Mr. Kennedy. Mrs. Hoffa ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. Not as her maiden name?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so. She now has a note that she is trying
to collect.
Mr. Kennedy. I will refresh your recollection that it was in her
maiden name.
Mr. HoFFA. It was ? All right.
Mr. Kennedy. What did the Theater Trucking Corp. do ?
Mr. HoFFA. Hauled film.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did they have as drivers ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. jMembers of the teamsters ?
Mr. Hoffa. Sure. Certainly.
Mr. Kennedy. She was a stockholder in that company ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio else was in that company ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Fitzsimmons have anything to do with that
company ?
Mr. Hoffa. Xo, I don't think so. I tried to tell Mr. Bellino, but I
couldn't think of the name. I tried to locate the name.
Mr. Kennedy. How about Dale Patrick ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is the fellow.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he related to Mr. Fitzsimmons?
Mr. HoFFA. I think so, in some way.
JNIr. Kennedy. "^Vliat was Mr. Fitzsimmons' position at that time?
Mr. HoFFA. Vice president, local 299. It is also in the Hoffman
committee.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a business agent ?
Mr. HoFFA. And a vice president.
Mr. Kennedy. And Curly Patrick is his nephew; is that right?
Mr. HoFFA. I think so. I am not going to be held to it, but I tliink
there was a relation. I^t's put it that way.
Mr. IvENNEDY. So liis nephew and your wife in her maiden name
had this company and you delivered film ?
Mr. HoFFA. Only because, as I told you before, the truck that was
turned over to them, and I don't know whether there was any money
or not, but in any event, she has a note and she has not been able to
collect for the stock or the truck.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know a Mr. Howard Kraven ?
Mr. HoFFA. I knew him ; yes.
5022 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Fitzsimmons have a business relationsliip
with him?
Mr. HoFFA. I assume he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat was that business relationship ?
Mr. HoFFA. Kraven was a trucker, I beUeve.
Mr. Kennedy. The same kind of trucker as your wife ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think so.
Mr. Kennedy. What occurred? 'What was the relationship be-
tween the business agent of the teamsters and Mr. Kraven who owned
the trucking company ?
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine the relationship between an employer and
business representative.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there anything further? Did Mr. Fitzsim-
mons receive payments from Mr. Kraven ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, somebody tried to say he did.
Mr. Kennedy. But he did not ?
Mr. HoFFA. But I don't know what came of it because it was
dropped and I can't answer your question. I don't know of my own
knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, it was dropped. Did you inquire into it at
that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. There was no reason.
Mr. IvENNEDY. There was no reason to ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. The grand jury was investigating it.
Mr. Kennedy. And you did not inquire into it yourself ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not with the grand jury investigating it, and they
found no cause to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any connection between that company
of Mr. Kraven and possibly Mr. Fitzsimmons and the company of
your wife and Mr. Dale Patrick?
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. There was no relationship at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. How did your wife get to be a stockholder of that
trucking service ?
Mr. HoFFA. I just told you.
Mr. Kennedy. You said you had a truck and $500.
Mr. HoFFA. No. I said I had a truck which I think was worth $500
and I am not sure whether we loaned them $500 at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio is "them" ?
Mr. HoFFA. You are talking about Curly.
Mr. Kennedy. Curly Patrick ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. He had that company ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did anybody else have an interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand I can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he working for the teamsters at the time?
Mr. HoFFA. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. And you turned the truck over to that company and
they made your wife a stockholder ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think it was a one-truck operation, wasn't it?
Mr. Kennedy. I don't Imow.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5023
Mr. HoFFA. You must have the information there. It was in the
Hoffman hearings.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't have that information. As you say, it
stopped.
Mr. HoFFA. You said it stopped. I didn't say it stopped.
Mr, Kennedy. I thought you said it stopped.
Mr. HoFFA. All this information was in the hearing and you can
find it in 1943.
Mr. Kennedy. We can't find the answer to that. Can you tell us
how your wife became a third stockholder?
Mr. HoFFA. I just told you.
Mr. Kennedy. How ? She turned your truck over to them ?
Mr. HoFFA. And I possibly gave them $500. I am not too sure.
But in any event, she wound up with a note of $1,000 which she has
not been able to collect.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any other stock interest at the present
time, other than Freuhauf ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I have some stock.
Mr. Kennedy. Maybe you could furnish it to the committee. I do
not think it is necessary to read it at this time.
Mr. HoFFA. I will be glad to give it to you.
Mr. Kennedy. Under oath could you give us an affidavit ?
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. What do you mean by that? What
has that to do with this committee, the question of my stock ? I don't
mind letting you see what it is, but I don't know what it has to do
with this committee.
Mr. Kennedy. We would like to see what it is. I would like to
make sure this is all that you have.
The Chairman. What is the point of the stock?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Chairman, I would at this time like to object
to this turning over the stock for the same grounds I stated earlier,
first, that it is an inquiry which is not pertinent.
Secondly, that it does not come within the scope of the resolution
creating this committee and giving it authority, and, thirdly, that it
could not in any way have a proper legislative purpose.
We would be glad
The Chairman. Not unless there is some connection with the union,
some collusion or something that way. I do not Imow.
Mr. HoFFA. We will be happy to let you look at the stock and let
you make the determination. If you think there is one, I will tell
you about it.
Mr. Fitzgerald. We will let you look at the stock if you want to.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have a list there ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I just have one list, Mr. Kennedy, because after
our talk Saturday, I neglected to mention to Mr. Hoffa that you had
mentioned stock. We had to call up last night and put this together.
I will be happy to show it to you after the hearing or tomorrow.
The Chairman. After the hearing, counsel may check with your
counsel and report back, and we will determine whether it is pertinent
or not.
Proceed.
5024 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kenjstedy. Just going through the list of these companies, the
Theater Trucking was a trucking company that you had an interest
in through your wife in her maiden name
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. That is not true. My wife had an
interest in it.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not have any interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. My wife had it.
Mr. Kj^nnedy. You did not have any interest?
Mr. HoFFA. My wife had an interest in it and the stock was in her
name. To the best of my recollection, the company didn't make any
money so if she had it in her name, I don't think you can attach it to
me.
The Chairman. The question is, Mr. Hoffa, she could have the
stock and you could have stock, too, or she could have an interest and
you could have an interest, too.
Mr. HoFFA. No ; I said I didn't have an interest.
Mr. Kennedy. You turned over your truck or her truck?
Mr. Hoffa. I believe it was my wife's truck, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. Kennedy. The truck was in her name?
Mr. HoFFA. It could be one way or the other, but I think so.
Mr. Kennedy. If we want to find out about the Theater Trucking
Co., we would have to go to j^our wife?
Mr. HoFFA. If you want to bother my wife, ask me and I will be
very happy to tell you, Mr. Kennedy, anything pertaining to this
investment.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Kennedy, I will get the information and sub-
mit it to Mr. Bellino, and then if you want to, go further.
Mr. Kennedy. I will put it this way : Your wife had an interest in
Theater Trucking Co. ; is that correct ?
Mr. Hoffa. I say she did.
Mr. Kennedy. And which had contracts at that time with the
teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. If my recollection serves me right, I think it was a
one-man operation, if I am not mistaken. There certainly couldn't
be, if there was one man operation, the conclusion that you are trying
to draw.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me go on to the J. & H. Sales Co. Tliat was
equipment that was leased to a company that had contracts with the
teamsters, was it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. You are right.
Mr. Kennedy. The National Equipment Co. the same way ; it had
c-ontracts with companies ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is in the record.
Mr. Kennedy. Companies that had contracts with the teamsters.
And Test Fleet the same situation ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is in the record.
Mr. Kennedy. Terminal Realty Co. was an investment that you
made with Mr. Matheson, as you remember ?
Mr. HoFFA. And others that I listed.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Matheson represents the employers, the
truckers. The White Seal Brewery also with Mr. Matheson ; is that
correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not the brewery. P. M. L.
I]VIPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5025
Mr. Kennedy. P. M. L. That was with Mr. Matheson; is that
right ? He was one of those investors ?
Mr. HoFFA. George said he was. I don't recall, personally.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Northwestern Oil Co. was with the Dorf mans ; Mr.
Allan Dorf man ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he heads up the Union Casualty Co., with
whom the teamsters do business ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy. Joll Properties with Allan Dorf man?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. I^NNEDY. And with Dr. Perlman?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And the Columbus Trotting Association?
Mr. HoFFA. With Bert Brennan and other people who I can't give
you the names of.
Mr. Kennedy. Are there any other companies ?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my knowledge, I can't recall any. I
have made an investigation here and given you the best I can recall
at this moment.
(Witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. Hold it. Pardon me, sir.
George brings to my attention that I think you named Perlman in
Joll Properties.
Mr. Kennedy. Joll?
Mr. HoFFA. Did you put Perlman in Joll Properties ?
Mr. Kennedy. Dr. Perlman ? I think you testified about him.
Mr. HoFFA. No, I don't think he is in Joll Properties.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Well, he was in one company. What was that?
Mr. HoFFA. Northwestern Oil.
Mr. Kennedy. Northwestern Oil?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Just the Dorf mans are in Joll Properties?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct; and Goodman, as I told you.
Mr. Kennedy. I have one other question.
As I understand it, you loaned some money to Mr. Jimmy James?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien was that? 1946-47?
Mr. HoFFA. We will have to check the book. That I can't tell you,
if you want to check the dates.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money ? Do you know ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. If you give me a moment, Mr. Kennedy, I will
have to try to check the Hoffman committee hearings, because it is
in there.
The Chairman. You may have a momfent.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Kennedy, could you go ahead with something
else?
Mr. Ivennedy. If you can get the answer by tomorrow morning,
that will be all right.
Mr. Fitzgerald. All rifiht.
5026 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. It was either $2,500, or $2,000. If you don't want to
hold it to the buck
Mr. Kennedy. No, I won't.
Mr. HoFFA. It was either $2,000 or $2,500. One of those two, I
believe, is the correct figure. But if it is any different, we will report
it to you tomorrow morning.
Mr. Kennedy. You loaned the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. Brennan and I.
Mr. Kennedy. And $2,000?
Mr. HoFFA. One of those two figures.
Mr. Kennedy. For what purpose did you loan Jimmy James
money ?
Mr. HoFFA. For Mm to be able to start an organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat kind of organization ?
Mr. HoFFA. Teamster organization.
Mr. Kennedy. To start a union ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Had he had a charter lifted from another union
earlier ?
Mr. HoFFA. A federal labor union ; yes.
Mr. KJENNEDY. He had had his charter lifted and you were going
to start him up in the teamster organization ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you loaned him $2,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. One of the two figures I gave you. I am not quite sure.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that cash or check ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it must have been cash.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he pay you back ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes. In the way that you know.
Mr. Kennedy. How was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. By — it was an agreement with his union to pay my wife
and Brennan's wife $100 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. They just listed it as a loan or were they listed as
employees ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know what his books show. I can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. But they received $100 a week ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Ejennedy. The checks were made out in their maiden names?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you that again.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you believe it was in their maiden names ?
Mr. HoFFA. It could be. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did they receive in total ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. I think the record shows some $6,000.
Mr. HoFFA. Put it down if it is.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliy would Jimmy James and the teamsters local
pay your wife and Bert Brennan's wife in their maiden names $6,000
if you only loaned them $2,000 or $2,500 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Because of the arrangement that was agreed to between
the union officials and ourselves.
Mr. Kennedy. It was worth 300 percent ?
Mr. HoFFA. "VVliatever percent it was. He felt that it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, figure that vou loaned them $2,500, and you
got paid back $6,000.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5027
Mr. HoFFA. Put it down the way you want. That is the story. I
didn't come here to tell you anything except what is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what your arrangement with Jimmy James
was?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And Jimmy James, after that — he gave that local
up, did he?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. To Mr. Bufalino?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes. He became, I think, secretary-treasurer of the
laundry workers union.
Mr. Kennedy. While he was secretary-treasurer of the laundry
workers union, did he continue on the payroll of the teamsters union?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know.
Mr. EJENNEDY. You don't know that?
Mr. HoFFA. Not of my own knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you heard that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somebody made the statement. I don't know whether
it is true or not.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't give the committee any explanation as to
why the teamsters union would continue to pay Jimmy James a salary
while he was secretary-treasurer of the laundry workers ?
Mr. HoFFA. He may have been doing some extra work. You never
can tell.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know anything about that ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. KJENNEDY. He went to Florida, then ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so. He went to Chicago, didn't he ?
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if he went to Miami ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think his headquarters are in Chicago.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if he was down in Miami at all?
Mr. HoFFA. I think he was.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he involved in that shooting of the colored boy
that ended up with five bullets in his head ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe he was.
Mr. Kennedy. I guess he refused to answer questions about that?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I don't think he was ever indicted and I don't think
he ever stood trial. I don't know how he could be involved in it except
some newspaper tried to involve him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand somebody tried to involve him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I read it in the newspapers.
Mr. Kennedy. That some fellow identified him ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is peculiar, then, that he wasn't indicted.
Mr. Kennedy. I understood he was indicted before the Douglas and
Ives committee, he and his colleagues misappropriating some $9,000.
Mr. HoFFA. I read it in the newspaper, but it was not the teamsters.
Let the record show that.
Mr. Kennedy. This was the man that you originally loaned some
$2,500 to and put your wife on the payroll of the union in her maiden
name ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. You are so correct.
The Chairman. Senator Kennedy?
Senator Kennedy. You used the name Allan Dorf man ?
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon?
5028 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Kennedy. You had business dealings with Allan Dorf man ?
Mr. IIoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Did he handle or have any connection with the
insurance or welfare of the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct. The only dealings I had with him
is a girls' camp which is completely divorced from the union.
(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
Senator Kennedy. He received a commission, expense allowance,
and service fees of about $790,000 from the Union Casualty Co. from
1949 to 1953 and about $200,000 from the United Public Service Corp.
or a total of more than $1 million.
I understand that Mr. Dorfman's license was taken away from
him by the New York State Insurance Department.
Mr. HoFFA. Are you asking me ?
Senator Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. I think that that is involved in court ; isn't it ?
Senator Kennedy. What did you say?
Mr. HoFFA. Isn't that involved in court some way ?
Senator Kennedy. It was taken to court and then the court sus-
tained the New York State Insurance Department.
Mr. HoFFA. It could be. I couldn't give you an answer.
Senator Kennedy. And also the license of Dr. Perlman, with whom
you also had a business deal, was also taken away from him.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe that. I think he sold his interest.
Didn't he?
Senator Kennedy. No. He was suspended by the New York State
Insurance Department; Mr. Perlman and Mr. Dorf man.
Mr. HoFFA. Are you sure of that. Senator?
Senator Kennedy, Yes. It is right here.
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't think that, Senator. He sold his company.
I don't think so.
Senator Kennedy. The question that I wanted to ask you is: Do
you feel that in view of that action, that Mr. Dorfman is a good man
to handle the teamsters business in insurance and welfare ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Dorfman's company has paid the benefits that are
required by the policy that is given to teamster members, and it is
comparable to any policy by any company that is signed, and the
company who he is the agent only for, he is not the company, is a
company that is handling the business of other unions as well as our
own.
Senator Kennedy. I understand that Mr. Dorfman took the fifth
amendment, when he appeared, on all questions relating to your
financial holdings, and he also took the fifth amendment regarding
any joint financial interest he may have had with Mr. HofPa, and
he took the fifth amendment when questioned about obtaining insur-
ance for local 102 of the UAW, and he took the fifth amendment on
other questions involving some actions taken in New York.
As a chairman of a subcommittee of the Permanent Senate Labor
Committee, which investigates labor and welfare plans, I am
interested that you would be satisfied to continue Mr. Dorfman, or
that you would be satisfied to have labor funds invested through Mr.
Dorfman in view of Mr. Dorfman's background and record.
Mr. HoFFA. I think Senator Douglas investigated both our pension
fim.d and welfare fund and Mr. Dorfman's company. If you will
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5029
check the record, I believe you will find that Senator Douglas said
it was a well-operated, well-regulated and well-controlled fund, and
gave it a complete paragraph in his report without any criticism
whatsoever of that fund.
Is that correct or not, sir ?
Senator Kennedy. We have a report here that as a result of Allan
Dorfman's refusing to allow the examiners to examine the books,
coupled with the actions of Dr. Leo Perlman, who was then vice presi-
dent of the Union Casualty Co., the New York State Insurance De-
partment revoked Allan Dorfman's license and the license of the
agency.
Dorfman appealed to the appellate court and the court in turn
ruled in favor of the New York State Insurance Department, and the
license of the agent and agency is still under revocation.
I am wondering in view of that if you are still satisfied to have Mr.
Dorfman in that position with reference to the teamster welfare and
pension plans?
Mr. HoFFA. We do not pay premiums to Mr. Dorfman's agency.
We pay it directly to the company, and he is the representative of the
insurance company. When we have any problems, they will be taken
up with the insurance company, because their officials from New York
appear at our meetings regularly, and we have proper accounting sys-
tems, and the books are subject to being investigated, as recently they
were by the Internal Revenue, and by Senator Douglas.
And I say that our plan is an excellent plan and meets all the re-
quirements of the ethical practices committee. I believe that as long
as they meet the requirements that are in the policy, which is the
insurance company, we cannot designate to them who is their agent.
Senator Kjennedy. The only question I have of you is : Is it not a
source of concern to you about Mr. Dorfman, whose license has been
suspended by the New York Insurance Department for failing to pro-
duce his records ? Evidently it is not a source of concern to you that
he has a connection with your welfare and pension funds. Is that
correct ? That is all I am asking you.
Mr. HoFFA. I am saying to you, sir, that Mr. Allan Dorfman did
take the fifth amendment as you outlined, because he had internal
revenue problems. When those problems were cleared up with the
Internal Revenue, he then sent a letter to the Congress requesting the
right to appear to correct the situation that he had previously taken the
fifth amendment on and was not ^iven an opportunity.
Since then he has, in my opinion, handled our welfare fund as
well as anybody could handle it. His problem with the New York
Insurance Commission should not subject our fund to criticism be-
cause he is only an agent of the company. I understand that some
time early next year he will not be an agent of that company, and the
company will probably have a new agent.
So we should not criticize the company because they have a problem
of contractual relationships.
Senator Ivennedy. I am not only criticizing Mr. Dorfman. I am
questioning your judgment. The ethical practices code states that
no union official, employee or other person acting as representative of
the union who exercises responsibility or influence in the administra-
tion of welfare programs or the placement of insurance contracts
5030 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
should have any compromising personal ties, direct or indirect with-
out said agencies such as insurance carriers, brokers, or consultants
doing business with the welfare plans.
The point I am making is that you and Mr. Dorf man did have busi-
ness. Mr. Dorfman took the fifth amendment before responsible
agencies of the Government. Mr. Dorfman's licenses were revoked
by the State of New York for refusing to produce the books.
It was taken to court and the court sustained the action of the in-
surance department in New York.
Nevertheless, with that background you do not see anything im-
proper about Mr. Dorfman continuing in the connection that he does
have with your insurance and welfare and pension plan.
Mr. HoFFA. As long as the insurance company meets the require-
ments of our policy, and we deal directly with the msurance com-
pany, I find nothing wrong with our operation.
I may say with regard to my investment one of the reasons North-
western Oil was liquidated was because of Mr. Dorfman's unethical
practice.
I may say, as I told you this morning, Joll Properties will also be
out of the way, and we will have no connection with Mr. Dorfman
whatsover. I told you that this morning, sir.
Senator Kennedy. I am glad to hear that. What we talked about
this morning was your personal investment. Now I am talking about
a tie that you had, under another section of the ethical practices, which
expresses disapproval of a business tie with anyone who is tied up
from the point of view of commissions, and so forth. That is another
part of the ethical practices. I am glad of the fact that Mr. Dorfman
is becoming disaffiliated with this plan.
Mr. HoFFA. That is why we are getting out of any investments with
Mr. Dorfman, to comply with this ethical practice. We will be out
of it as rapidly as we find someone who is willing to take over our
obligation. We will not quarrel, and I want it plain, Senator, we
will not quarrel with the ethical practice plan, even though we may
not agree with it. We will comply with it on the parts that we be-
lieve have some justification.
Senator Kennedy. It seems very reasonable to me.
Mr. HoFFA. I am not quarreling with it at all, sir. We are going
to comply with it.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?
Mr. Kennedy. There was a question raised this morning about the
type of cars that were carried by Test Fleet. We checked with Mr.
Robert Shokley, vice president in charge of operations of Commercial
Carriers, and he said that your company, the company in your wife's
name, was the only company in their organization that carries just
Cadillacs.
Mr. HoFFA. You asked who others of the trucking industry, Mr.
Kennedy. That is what you asked me.
Mr. Kennedy. Of all the companies from whom Commercial Car-
riers lease, you are the only one that carries just Cadillacs.
Mr. HoFFA. That is an entirely dijfferent question than this morn-
ing, and I can't say whether it is right or wrong. If you checked it, it
would be right.
Mr. Kennedy. The only thing is it is a great advantage for you
financially to have the right to carry Cadillacs, and it is some interest,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5031
the fact that you are the only one that has this relationship, that is
allowed to carry just Cadillacs.
Mr. HoFFA. I would like to have the record show, in response to your
statement, that I told your brother, Senator Kennedy, that it is our
intentions of getting out of those businesses so that we can comply
with the ethical practice, and we will not have to worry about what
is hauled by those trucks.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Coming back to this transaction of a loan to Mr.
James of $2,500, or thereabouts, and it was repaid by weekly or
montlily payments to the wives of the two of you — that is correct, is it ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were those repayments handled as wages?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I can't tell you that, sir, at this moment. It is
quite a far ways back. I think maybe it is 1950-51, and I can't tell
you, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were any services performed, were they wages?
Mr. HoFFA. No, there were no services performed, sir.
Senator Curtis. Was it treated as a loan and a repayment of a loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, Senator, I couldn't tell you at this stage. No-
body asked me to check into it. It is a subject that I just don't have
at the tip of my tongue to tell you.
Senator Curtis. Do you recall whether it was a loan or a profit-
sharing risk that was taken ?
Mr. HoFFA. The original money, sir, was a loan, but I cannot tell
you the balance of your question.
Senator Curtis. About how long a time elapsed from the time the
loan was made until it was fully repaid ?
Mr. HoFFA. That I can't tell you, either, sir, at this moment.
Senator Curtis. If that was a loan, it would constitute usury, if all
of that was interest, would it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. Again, I can't tell you whether or not it was treated as
salary, whether it was treated as a loan, or what it was. I couldn't
tell you, sir.
Senator Curtis. If it was treated as wages, you say that no services
were performed ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Curtis. Now, if it was treated as wages, social-security tax
would be paid on it, would it not ?
Mr. HoFFA, I couldn't tell you whether it was or wasn't, sir.
Senator Curtis. The social-security law covered wages in such an
occupation at that time, did it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do vou know whether the withholding tax was paid
on it?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know anything about the transaction, sir, I
couldn't tell you.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
(At this point. Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Are there any other questions?
5032 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Kennedy. Senator Curtis, just to get this point clear, I
would like to ask this question.
The $2,000 was loaned by you to Mr. James, is that correct?
Mr. HoFFA. Brennan and I.
Senator Ivennedy. And Mr. James
Mr. HoFFA. I said this before, Senator, that I don't know if that
is a correct figure.
Senator Kennedy. Assuming it is a correct figure, and I under-
stand it is, roughly, then James out of union funds paid you back
$G,000?
Mr. HoFFA. Pardon me, sir. I think it was $3,500. It looks like
from this record that it may have been $3,500.
Senator Kennedy. The Hoffman hearings to which you refer show
$2,500.
Mr. HoFFA. This is Mr. McKenna, and it says, $3,500. I say "I
think it should be $2,500," and then they go on and they talk about
the fact that it is a question, and I can't answer you right now.
Senator Ivennedy. All right, it was $2,500. And then you re-
ceived back from them, union funds, $6,000 ?
ISIr. HoFFA. I don't know whether it was or not, sir.
Senator Kennedy. How long a time elapsed?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you that.
Senator Kennedy. And it was not a wage, as I understand it, be-
cause you would obviously know.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know, sir.
Senator Kennedy. It is not a wage?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you.
Senator Kennedy. Is it interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot answer that question concerning that because
I don't have the knowledge.
Senator I^nnedy. There were no services performed, and yet the
money, the $2,500, went up to $6,000, in what, 2 years or 3 years?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer that, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Wlien the original loan was only $2,500, why
would it go to $6,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer that, except for the fact — I can't answer
that.
Senator Kennedy. No services were rendered.
Mr. IIoFFA. Except my services. My services were rendered by
giving advice and counsel to the local union, and I don't know whether
or not they considered that or not in the payment. I can't give you
an answer.
Senator Kennedy. VTho paid you? Did he pay yon out of his
personal funds or out of the union funds ?
Mr. IIoFFA. That I can't answer either. I don't know.
Senator Kennedy. Did you get it in cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon ?
Senator Kennedy. Did he pay it back in cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer it at this moment.
Senator Kennedy. You do not know whether you were paid back
in check or cash ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall.
Senator Kennedy. But it is your opinion that those were union
funds ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5033
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall.
Senator Kennedy. Was it paid to your wife in salary?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall whether it was or was not, Senator.
Senator Kennedy. In other words, you say for your advice. They
were paying your wife. Was that for her services or your services ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer the question. I will have to check
the facts. Nobody told me to bring it here. I will have to get ahold
of the people involved and try to find out for you. I don't know.
Senator Kennedy. Well, it is an unusual transaction to have an
amount, a loan, of $2,500 and get paid back $6,000.
Mr. HoFFA. There could have been some circumstances surround-
ing it. I can't tell you. Senator.
Senator Kennedy. $6,000 in salary for your wife in her maiden
name, to pay back a $2,500 loan.
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer.
Senator Kennedy. And out of union funds.
Mr. HoFFA, It is 1950 or 1952, Senator, and I can't answer it.
The Chairman. Senator Mundt?
Senator Mundt. You said it could have been for your advice to
the local union.
Mr. HoFFA. They may have felt, sir.
Senator Mundt. You would not be paid by a local union for ad-
vice that you give a local union in your capacity as vice president,
would you ?
Mr. HoFFA. I was not a vice president, sir.
Senator Mundt. What were you ?
Mr. HoFFA. At that time I do not believe I was a vice president.
I think I was president of 299, if I remember correctly. I am not
too sure. I think that was 1951, if I am not mistaken. At that
time I was not a vice president, until 1952, the latter part.
Senator Mundt. Did you have any union position beyond and
liigher than that of a local union at that time?
Mr. HoFFA. President of Joint Council 43, a nonpaying job, sir.
Senator Mundt. Part of that function was to give advice to the
members of the joint council?
Mr. HoFFA. I say I don't know whether or not that was part of
the consideration.
Senator Mundt. No, I do not either, but I would assume that it
could not be, because it would seem to me that as president of the
joint council part of your function would be to give advice to the
local unions, and certainly you were not charging them for the ad-
vice that you were giving them.
Mr. HoFFA. I never have been paid by the joint council a salary,
sir, so apparently it would not be for advice.
Senator Mundt. So we can eliminate that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you are right.
Senator Mundt. It was not for advice?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you are right.
Senator Curtis. When was the amount of $6,000 agreed u]:)on as
the right amount you would be repaid for this loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't give you the answer, Senator.
Senator Curtis. Was it before the loan was made?
5034 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I don't recall one single thing about it, ex-
cept the fact — since I have this record as all that I can refer to, I
don't recall it otherwise.
Senator Curtis. It is true, though, that if this was handled to ap-
pear as wages, and, in fact, it was not wages, if no services were per-
formed, then the recipients have received social security credit for a
period of service that is inaccurate, that is a misstatement of the
record, is it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, until I get the facts, I couldn't answer you
properly.
Senator Curtis. But if it is a straight loan, certainly it exceeds
Mr. HoFFA. It could be a loan, sir. I cannot answer you either
way.
Senator Curtis. Well, if it is, is there not a law in Michigan against
usury ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know what the circumstances were. Senator,
and I can't properly answer you.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Hoffa, do you have records with you or in
Detroit which you can examine so that we can get down to the facts
on this case ?
INIr. Hoffa. No, sir. I only have the Hoffman hearing here of
1952, and I do not have any other records, sir.
Senator Mundt. Do you have any records in Detroit ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir.
Senator INIundt. Wliat can you do to provide the information
Mr. Hoffa. I will try to
Senator IMundt. To provide the information tlie committee is
seeking ?
Mr. Hoffa. I will try to find Mr. James and get an answer for you.
That is the best I can do, sir.
Senator Mundt. Could your wife throw some light on it ?
Mr. Hoffa. I doubt it.
Senator Mundt. She would know how much money she got.
Mr. Hoffa. I think the income tax would reflect it.
Senator Mundt. Well, in your wife's records, I suppose, there
must be some record of the payment.
Mr. Hoffa. There are no records, sir.
Senator Mundt. That leaves us in a curious position. We do not
know what to conclude from this and you cannot help us very much.
Mr. Hoffa. You are right, sir.
Senator Mundt. I wish you would get the information.
Mr. Hoffa. You are right.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, before you adjourn, I have
a statement.
The Chairman. Senator McNamara.
Senator McNamara. Before you adjourn, and for the record, Mr.
Chairman, I want to say there is a current newspaper strike in De-
troit and my office has received telegrams from both management
and labor, rather lengthy ones, asking us to take up with this com-
mittee the matters involved. I am turning those communications
over to the committee staff. I want the record to show that I am
doing that.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5035
The Chairman. The Chair has also received a number of teleo-rams
and probably the other members of the committee have, too. ^^ They
will all be turned over to the staff for as early attention as we can
give them.
Unfortunately, the people that have problems think we ought to
be on their doorstep in the morning.
There are at least physical limitations to this committee's actions.
The committee will stand in recess until 10 : 30 in the morning.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 53 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 10 : 30 a. m., Wednesday, August 21, 1957.)
(Members present at the taking of the recess : Senators McClellan,
Kennedy, Ervin, McNamara, Mundt, and Curtis.)
89330— 57— pt. 13 8
INVESTIGATION OF OIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 21, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN the Labor or Management Field,
Washington^ D. C.
The select committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room, Senate Office
Building, Senator Jolin L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Sena-
tor Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York; Senator John F. Ken-
nedy, Democrat, Massachusetts; Senator Pat McNamara, Democrat,
Michigan; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat, North Carolina:
Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Senator Barry
Goldwater, Republican, Arizona ; Senator Carl T. Curtis, Republican,
Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, chief assistant counsel; Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel;
Robert E. Dunne, assistant counsel ; John Cye Cheasty, assistant coun-
sel; Walter R. May, assistant counsel; Walter Sheridan, assistant
counsel; K. Philip O'Donnell, assistant counsel; Carmine S. Bellino,
accounting consultant; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator; James
Mundie, investigator ; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
The ChxVIRman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee jd resent at the convening of the
session were: Senators McClellan, Ives, Kennedy, and Goldwater.)
The Chairman. The committee will resume its interrogation of the
witness, Mr. Hoff a.
Mr. Counsel, do you wish to proceed ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, Mr. Chairman. We are going to proceed on
some of the matters that we were discussing yesterday, in connection
with Mr. Hoffa's business interests and some of the loans he has made.
I would like to get this list of stocks straightened out.
TESTIMONY OP JAMES R. HOEFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
The Chairman. Let i\\Q Chair make this observation. As I recall,
yesterday when the question came up about the stocks, about some of
Mr. Hoif a's investments, he said he would supply a list to the commit-
tee. At that time the Chair announced that the committee had no
interest in his investments primarily other than those that might
5037
5038 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES m THE LABOR FIELD
have some relation to labor organizations or where there might appear
to be some conflict of interest.
For that reason, at least the present, the Chair is not going to make
this list submitted by the witness an exhibit, but will interrogate him
about some of the stocks here that I understand have, or possibly have
some relation to this labor organization.
According to this list submitted, it appears to the Chair there are
some 200 shares of an F. C. Rigley stock.
Is that correct, Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe so ; yes.
The Chairman. Now, does that company have any labor contract
with the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir ; they do.
The Chairman. What kind of a company is it ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is a chain-store operation.
The Chairman. What is it ?
Mr. HoFFA. A chain-store operation, and also in connection with
chain-store operation, a wholesale grocery operation.
The Chairman. And the teamsters have contracts for its employ-
ees?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who is the labor relations man for the Riglev
Co.?
Mr. Hoffa. They have an individual labor representative, and off-
hand I can't think of his name, but they belong to an association, and
Jack Buskin represents the association.
The Chairman. That is Buskin ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Tlie same gentleman from whom you made the loan ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. You had secured a loan from him at some time ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. Has that loan been repaid ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, we have another one. I believe you have 400
shares in that company.
Mr. HoFFA. Rigley you are talking about, sir?
The Chairman. Yes, I think there are two purchases.
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. 400 shares ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The McLean Industries, and what kind of a com-
pany is that ?
Mr. HoFFA. The particular McLean industry listed there has
changed its name, and I do not know the exact new name, but it is
a company that has steamships and also has boats that deliver trailers,
with a flat top on it, where trailers normally hauled by tractors go
on to the boat to a destination and then are picked up later on at the
other end and delivered to the final destination by tractors.
The Chairman. I have a memorandum here prepared, I assume by
the staff, which says McLean Industries is a holding company which
operates through its subsidiaries various worldwide, coastwise, and
intra coastal steamship services, and engages in other i-elated activi-
ties. These subsidiaries include Waterman Steamship Corp., a world-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5039
wide steamship service; Pan- Atlantic Steamship Corp., a coastwise
steamship service operating on the Atlantic coast; and Pan-Atlantic
Carloading Dispatch Service, Inc., a freight-forwarding service ; and
Gnlf-Florida Terminal Co., Inc., a warehousing unit and terminal in
Tampa, Fla. ; and Waterman Dock Co., owned by the Waterman
Steamship Corp., which operates a terminal in San Juan, P. II.
Do you have that information, or is that correct, or do you know?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know, sir, but I do believe that that has been
changed by orders of the Interstate Commerce Commission to where
it has been consolidated into one company, and I think that the prin-
cipal company today is the Pan- Atlantic Transportation Co.
The Chairman. I note this memorandum says this source of infor-
mation is standard corporation description, published by Standard &
Poors. That is the source of the committee's information regarding it.
I note you have 600 shares of stock in that company. Does that
company have contracts with the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. The truck company, McLean, has contracts with the
teamsters union, but the company that the stock is held in I do not
believe has any contracts with the teamsters, since they would be doing
business with the longshoremen's union rather than the teamsters.
All we would do would be bring the trailers to a compound by McLean
truckline, and then the steamship operation would take over from the
compound on to the boat and off at the other end.
The Chairman. Seeing that some of these companies or one of them
has for instance, a freight-forwarding service, I suppose by freight
they wouldn't mean ocean shipping. I suppose they would mean
international freight.
Mr. HoFFA. It could be a car-loading company that consolidates
freight, and could very well be not under our jurisdiction, but the rail-
way clerks union.
The Chairman. The real question is whether there is, as I have
stated before, whether there can exist a conflict of interest by reason
of contracts they make with labor organizations where they would
probably have to negotiate with your union, and j^our having a finan-
cial interest and a part ownership of the company itself.
Is there any other question ?
Mr. HoFFA. May I make a comment on that, sir ?
The Chairman. You may.
Mr. HoFFA. The small numbers of shares of stock that are involved
in that piece of paper couldn't amount to a fraction of the total num-
ber of shares of stock that are issued by any one of those companies,
and could not possibly affect in any way the operations of any one of
those companies insofar as a conflict of interest is concerned. Both
of the companies you mentioned are on the stock market for the
public's right to purchase.
The Chairman. I appreciate that. The Chair has refrained from
stating the value of those stocks, and if you care to do so you may.
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon ?
The CHAiRMAN.^The Chair has refrained from stating from your
memorandum here, from your list, the present market value of the
stocks, and I will leave it to your discretion, if you care to state their
present market value you may do so.
5040 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I think that Rigley is somewhere around $13 and a frac-
tion, and I believe that McLean must be somewhere around $16, if I
am not mistaken.
The Chairman. I believe you showed the totals there and since you
gave that, the totals of Rigley, 200 shares, worth $2,900, and the Mc-
Lean Industries, 600 shares, $8,100. That is your best information?
Mr. HoFFA. That is the best information I have compiled ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr. IvENNEDY. I have some checks that I wanted on some other
matters that I wanted to ask you about, Mr. Hoffa.
Are you familiar with the company called Abstract & Title
Guarantee Co.?
Mr. Hoffa. I believe that is a Detroit concern, and when you
say I am familiar with it, I know who the company is; let us put it
that way.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the teamsters union locals, any locals, advance
or loan that company any money ?
Mr. Hoffa. No ; not that company. They placed in deposit of the
Abstract Co. a certain amount of money for the Marberry Construc-
tion Co. to have a rotating construction fund.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Wliat is the Marberry Construction Co. ?
Mr. Hoffa. Who are the principals ; you mean ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. Yes.
Mr. Hoffa. Grosberg, Silberg, and Fitzgerald.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Grosberg, Silberg, and Fitzgerald ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes. He kmd of got lost in the shuffle.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio is Mr. Grosberg ?
Mr. Hoffa. An accountant.
Mr. IvENNEDY. And is Mr. Grosberg the Mr. Grosberg mentioned
here yesterday, that you received a loan from ?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. You received a $4,000 loan from him?
Mr. Hoffa. Just a moment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Also, I am told that his father, Ben Grosberg, is also
in this company, so there would be two Grosbergs.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Grosberg, Grosberg, Silberg, and Fitzgerald?
Mr. Hoffa. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Grosberg is the accountant for the teamsters?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And he is the one from whom you received a loan
of $4,000?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir ; and I paid it back.
Mr. IvENNEDY. And Mr. Silberg, does he have anything to do with
the teamsters ?
Mr. Hoffa. I am informed he is a builder.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a what ?
Mr. Hoffa. A builder.
Mr. ICjennedy. And Mr. Fitzgerald is Mr. George Fitzgerald?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Wliat is the Marberry Construction Co. doing?
Mr. Hoffa. It is a concern that builds homes.
Mr. KJENNEDY. How much money was loaned to them ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5041
Mr, HoFFA. I understand, and don't hold me to these figvires, I
think it is around $75,000, and it is at 6 percent, and the payout is
handled by the company you mentioned, on a construction rotating
basis. It is paid out only on vouchers in regard to construction,
where the union has a first mortgage on the construction.
Mr. Kenxedt. Is that $75,000 from one union ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, it is not ; two imions.
Mr. Kennedy. Which unions ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it is 299 and 337.
Mr. Kennedy. That was a loan made in 1965, was it?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that you will find.
Mr. Kennedy. I have one check here, but of course we don't have
the records for 299.
The Chairman. I hand you a check, a photostatic copy of a check,
paid to Abstract Title Guarantee Co., in the amount of $37,500, drawn
on the Bank of the Commonwealth of Detroit, by Food and Beverage
Drivers Local, 337, dated September 29, 1955.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't deny the check, sir.
The Chairman. I want to get it in the record. I present it to you
and let you identify it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That check being identified by the witness may be
made exhibit 160.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 160" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on p. 5277.)
Mr. HoFFA. I would like to have the record show that the company
has paid its interest currently, and the money has gone out of the
escrow company back into the Casualty Co. and has paid out only on
vouchers and they paid 6 percent, and we could not receive the same
amount of interest if we had it in a normal bank account, and it is
amply secured by the facilities that are built by the mortgage money.
The Chairman. There is something about another check.
Do you have the other check ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. We don't have the records of 299, but the other
check is in 299.
The Chairman. The witness says that he thinks that another local
participated.
Mr. HoFFA. I know it did, sir.
The Chairman. To the same extent?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe so.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Does the union make many loans such as this ?
Mr. HoFFA. We would if we found a substantial company, and
we found that we could get 6 percent ; yes, sir.
Mr. I^NNEDY. You fomid that Mr. Fitzgerald, who is the attorney
for the teamsters, and Mr. Grosberg, the accountant for the teamsters,
was the kind of a company, or established the kind of company that
you wanted to loan the money to ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would say if they were substantial and had the same
security as anybody else, I would rather do business with friends
than enemies, or people I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. About what time did you receive the $4,000 loan
from Mr. Grosberg ?
Mr. HoFFA. I thought I gave it to you yesterday.
5042 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I was wondering what period of time it was.
Mr. HoFFA. In 1956. No, it was 1955.
Mr. Ejennedy. It was about the same time as these loans were
made.
Mr. HoFFA. There were two.
Mr. Kennedy. How much were they ?
Mr. HoFFA. One was $4,000, and one was $7,500. Both paid back.
Mr. Ivennedy. In 1955 and 1956?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. That is the record that I have, which
was produced and I assume the}'^ are right.
(At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. I woukl like to ask you about some other checks.
The Chairman. Tlie Chair presents to you another check, photo-
static copy, made payable to Joseph Bulger, in tlie amount of $15,000,
dated July 27, 1956, drawn on Food and Beverage Drivers Local
Union, No. 237. Will you examine that and state if you identify it?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. HoFFA. This is one of a series of checks and I think the checks
are there that went to the purchase of a home known as the Nansett
Estates, by local 37, and participated in by local 299, jointly, which
has recently been sold, or rather recently been turned over to joint
council 43 within the very short period after the purchase, for the
sole reason of establishing a school for business agents and officers
to be able to have professors from recognized universities teach them
the handling of pension, welfare, and contract negotiations. I think
the total sum you will find is $150,000.
The Chairman. That check ma}^ be made exhibit 161.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 161" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on p. 5278.)
The Chairman. The Chair presents to you another check made
payable to Joseph I. Bulger, attorney for fund 96 in the amount of
$134,317.79, and the check bv the Food and Beverage Drivers Union,
No. 337.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
The Chairman. Will you please examine this check and see if you
identify it?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit No. 162.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 162" for
reference, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5279.)
Mr. HoFFA. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that I recognized
the check, and acknowledge it, but apparently there is another check
somewhere that makes up $150,000.
The Chairman. That makes almost $150,000.
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere there is a combination of checks.
The Chairman. The other one was for $15,000 and this was
$134,000, and that is close to it.
Mr. Kennedy. It was all purchased by this local ?
Mr. HoFFA. Tha check was draft by the local, Mr. Kennedy, but
the money was jointly put up by local 299 and 337, and with the
understanding that the joint council was to take over the operation
of the property because it will not only be the agents of 337 and 299
but the total local unions ultimately in Central States that will use
the schooling as such, and we are starting it up as an experiment.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5043
The Chairman. So there will be no confusion in the record, there
are not two other comparable checks from the other local ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, I see what you mean.
The Chairman. The total investment was around $150,000, and
not $300,000?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
The Chaieman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. That is going to be a sort of a school for the business
agents and the officers ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, and if it works out properly we will
have the key stewards also attend classes.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it a home and some land ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is a home and some land, with sufficient sleeping
quarters, I believe we can have about 30 or 40 people at a time in
classes, and we don't think it is advisable to have more than that at
a time to try and get people to listen properly to explanations.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you participate in the negotiations for the
purchase of this property ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that I went down one time but Mr. Brennan
primarily handled it and I know very little about the details.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever heard of Paul "The Waiter" Kicca ?
Mr. HoFFA. I know who you are talking about, and I read the same
stories that were published in the newspapers, and I want to get it
on the record that there is no foundation for the statements that
appeared in the paper, because immediately we had the abstracts
checked with the trust company that we purchased the property from,
and nowhere in this abstract, from the time it was farmland, could
there be discovered the name of Paul Ricca.
Mr. KJENNEDY. You stated he never owned or never had anything
to do with tliis property ?
Mr. HoFFA. The abstract as such — according to the trust company,
his name did not appear there. All we could go by was the abstract.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, it says here "Pay to the order of and deposit
to the account of Paul De Lucia." Do you know who Paul De Lucia is ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I will not try to identify him because I am not
that sure.
Mr. Ivennedy. Paul De Lucia is another name for Paul Ricca.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe it.
Mr. Ejjnnedy. You do not?
Mr. HoFFA. It could be possibly so, and we tried to find out, and we
haven't been able to find that out.
Mr. Kennedy. There is no question that they are one and the same
individual, Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot answer the question and I have no knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. If you went and made a study of this, you didn't
make much of a study if the name appears right here on the back of
the check, Paul De Lucia.
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't say that. I said, Mr. Kennedy, that we called
the trust company and asked them whether or not Mr. Ricca had at
any time had his signature on the abstract, and the trust company
informed us it wasn't so. I can only go by what the trust company
said.
Mr. Kennedy. It would appear from these checks that the team-
sters union purchased a home, the home of Paul "The Waiter*' Ricca,
5044 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
who is a notorious hoodlum, for $150,000, as a school for its business
agents and officers ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. I say that we did not purchase it from Paul Ricca,
and we purchased it from a trust company, and we did not inquire at
first as to who was the previous owner, because there was no reason,
but when there was publicity we then again checked with the company
to find out who owned the property. They told us that nowhere in
the abstract did the name appear, of Ricca. I didn't check for any
other name because I had no reason to check for it.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, do you know or do you have any infor-
mation that Paul De Lucia and Ricca are the same person ?
Mr. Hoffa, Not of my own knowledge ; no, sir.
The Chairman. Have you had that information ?
Mr. Hoffa. Not until it was given to me now, and I never have been
informed of it.
The Chairman. Who is Paul De Lucia ; do you know him ?
Mr. PIoFFA. I haven't met him and I couldn't tell you.
The Chairman. Do y6u know why he would be handling this
money ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
The Chahiman. I don't know what the staff has on him being the
one and the same person.
Air. Kennedy. There is no question about it, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I don't know what you have on that and you may
need some proof on it later. I am just trying to find out if the
witness has any information as to why, even if they are different
persons, why Paul De Lucia would be getting the money from these
checks.
Mr. Hoffa. I can't tell you, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I would think if you became interested in it, after
you saw this note in the paper, that you might just look on the back
of the check to see where the money went. I would think that that
might give you a clue, Mr. Hoffa, if you were really interested.
Mr. Hoffa. I think the abstract would be a better way of looking
at it from my observation.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Paul Ricca according to our information has
just been ordered deported by the Federal authorities and he was
part of the Capone mob. Do you know his history at all ?
Mr. Hoffa. I have read of the history in the newspaper after it
was printed.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Did you ever meet him ?
Mr. Hoffa. No.
Mr. Ejennedy. You never did ?
Mr. Hoffa. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. O. K.
The Chairman. I present to you another photostatic copy of a
check, Mr. Hoffa, dated January 25, 1956, payable to Northville
Downs in the amount of $50,000. The check was issued by Food and
Beverage Drivers' Local No. 337.
I will ask you to examine this check and state if you identify it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That will be made exhibit No. 163.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5045
(The docimient referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 163" for
reference, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5280.)
Mr. Kennedy. This is a check dated June 25, 1956, pay to order
of Northville Downs, for $50,000. ^^lat is North ville Downs ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is a trotting track.
Mr. KJENNEDY. A trotting track ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. I don't believe they have runners, but
they may have. It is only trotting.
Mr. EiiNNEDY. Where abouts is it ?
Mr. HoFFA. North ville, Mich.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you explain the check to the committee?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I cannot give you the full explanation. As I told
Mr. Bellino, I only knew from odd conversations that I got what the
situation was, but to give you the exact details, I couldn't do that.
Mr. Kennedy. What is, generally, the explanation of this check?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand that the money was in the bank, drawing
a short interest and they had an opportunity to make a loan and get a
larger interest for a shorter period of time, which they did, and it
was paid back and I don't want to be held to this, but I understand it
was paid back within 60 or 90 days with an interest rate greater than
what the interest rate was the money was getting from the bank.
Mr. Kennedy. This is trotting track, is it ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. And the union was loaning them $50,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. They loaned them the money, on some arrangement,
which I can't give you the details on, and I am not going to try to
explain it because I don't know.
The Chairman. Did vou have any interest in that trotting track,
Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
The Chairman. The check is signed by Bert Brennan and Robert
Holmes. Did Brennan trot his horses out there ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think his horses visit all of the tracks.
The Chairman. This is one of the tracks at which he had his
horses ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
The Chairman. Can he run horses in New York now — Mr. Bren-
nan?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't know whether he can or not. There was some
dispute and I don't know what they did with it, and I can't tell you.
The Chairman. His license was revoked, was it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand, but I don't loiow whether it was ad-
justed or not.
The Chairman. I understand he is still not allowed to trot horses in
New York State.
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer.
The Chairman. You do not know what the difficulty was?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
The Chairman. Do you have any idea why they would not allow
him or would not give him a license in New York State to have his
horses ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would rather not discuss something that I don't have
complete knowledge of.
5046 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR TIELD
The Chairman. Is he an officer of the union ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He was loaning, in effect, money to himself ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
The Chairman. He was loaning money to a track where he ran his
horses, is that statement correct?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. I may say I have been informed also from
conversations, same as the other, there was sufficient collateral to cover
it, or more so.
The Chairman. I hand you another photostatic copy of a check
made payable to Edward Crumback, dated March 9, 1954, in the
amount of $5,000 and this is issued by the Michigan conference of
teamsters. It is on the Bank of Commerce, Detroit, Mich.
Will you examine this check and state if you can identify it, please,
sir?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit 164.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 164" for refer-
ence, and will be foimd in the appendix on p. 5281.)
(At this point. Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Ivennedy. On March 9, the check is dated March 9, 1954, in the
amount of $5,000 to Edward Crumback, what position did Edward
Crumback hold at that time?
Mr. HoFFA. At that time he was a vice president of the international.
Mr. Kennedy. Vice president of the international union ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat was this payment for ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was a donation.
Mr. Kennedy. For what?
Mr. HoFFA. For the purpose of Crumback having an opportunity
to be able to retain his position in the local union election, voluntary
donation.
Mr. Kennedy. It was a $5,000 donation from this Michigan confer-
ence of teamsters, to Mr. Crumback, who was running for reelection ;
is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was a donation to Crumback to do as he saw fit with
in his election.
Mr. Kennedy. And where was he running for election?
Mr. HoFFA. Local 107, Philadelphia.
Mr. Kennedy. So the union funds of the Michigan conference of
teamsters were donated to a man who was running for an elective office
of the teamsters in Philadelphia; is that right?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, for the purpose that we Imew was neces-
sary for the benefit of the Michigan conference of teamsters, because
we have trucks running in and out of Philadelphia, and a strike in
Philadelphia can affect the city of Detroit just as though there was
a strike in Detroit.
The Chairman. Who was Mr. Crumback's opponent?
Mr. HoFFA. A Mr. Kay Cohen.
The Chairman. Mister who ?
Mr. HoFFA. Eay Cohen.
The Chairman. He was local 107 in Philadelphia ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5047
Mr. HoFFA. I am quite sure that is the number ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Of the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is it a practice for the conference to take issue in
local elections in other areas of the country ?
Mr. HoFFA. Wherever we think it affects our interest, we definitely
take a position in it.
The Chairman. In other words, you used the dues money of folks
out at Michigan to try to influence the election in Pennsylvania ?
Mr. HoFFA. There is no question about it. Anywhere in the coun-
try where we think it will affect our economic issues or affect our
members.
The Chairman. There is just one point that comes to my mind.
Under the democratic processes, do you think it would have been
better to let the individuals of that local choose their own officials ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that it is the right of each teamster member
in this country and each officer to have the right to be able to go into
any given territory where there is a chartered teamster union to work
in behalf of any candidate that they believe will be to the best interest
as a whole of the members affected not only in that city but other
cities on an intra basis.
The Chairman. That gives rise to this thought. Suppose a little
local up in Philadelphia or somewhere else was a local that did not
have a great deal of finances, the membership possibly have not built
up the treasury as much as you have built it up in the conference.
Would that not put them at some disadvantage for a conference to
make available its financial strength to a favorite candidate ?
Mr. HoFFA. On the same basis as the Republican and Democratic
National Committees do ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Well, they have a nationwide interest.
Do you take the position that the western conference has a nation-
wide interest to undertake to control the elections on the east coast ?
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly do.
The Chairman. That is your position ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Senator Mundt ?
Senator Mundt. I would like to know whether the witness carries
that statement of philosophy over into the field of voting on governors.
Senators, and Congressmen?
Mr. HoFFA. I can rest assured the same philosophy.
Senator Mundt. The same philosophy. In other words, you
feel
Mr. HoFFA. The difference being, if I may say, Senator, that the
membership of the local union ultimately decides who is right, who is
wrong, who they want, who they don't want, and in the same instance
it applies to Senators, Governors, and Congressmen.
Senator Mundt. Let us say the Governor of the State of New Mexico
would not necessarily be elected by the teamsters of New Mexico.
Mr. HoFFA. Correct, sir.
Senator Mundt. But if the teamsters of Detroit are funneling in
over 5, 10, and 25 thousand dollar contributions it may be that the
people of Detroit are determining who the people of New Mexico
elect as governor.
5048 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Of course that is a hypothetical question, and it could
be highly debatable. All I can say to you is this, that since trucks
run interstate in this country, it is conceivable that what happens in
any one State can very vitally affect what happens in the other State
through legislative passage of laws. Therefore, I believe the team-
sters union particularly would have an interest in electing candidates
or assisting candidates to be elected that were not antitruck.
Senator Mundt. Let me see if I understand your philosophy specifi-
cally. You feel that it is perfectly proper for you or whoever heads
the teamsters joint conference in the city of Detroit to take the dues
paid by members of your teamsters union and contribute to a candi-
date for the governorship in New Mexico, if you feel he is going to
be somebody who is friendly to the trucking industry ?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't say that.
Senator Mundt. That is what I am asking.
Mr. HoFFA. But when there are individuals who get on the radio
and deliberately campaign, or their past history shows that they are
attempting to destroy the jobs of the teamster members, then I believe
that we reserve the right to go into those territories and assist the
individuals who are not trying to give preference to teamsters or to
the truckers, but are trying to be fair, to receive assistance.
Senator Mundt. Who makes that decision ? You as the president
of the central conference, or the men who pay the dues, whose money
is being used for that purjDose ?
Mr. HoFFA. It would very easily be both.
Senator Mundt. Well, who would it normally be?
Mr. HoFFA. In the instance of a conference, which isn't a question
of membership but a question of an elected executive board, the
elected executive board would make the decision. In the instance
where it is the local union, the local union and the membership would
make the decision.
Senator Mundt. I take it, then, that in the field of political activity,
you and Mr. Reuther see eye to eye.
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't agree to that statement by no stretch of the
imagination. But I agreed, as Mr. Reuther agrees, that we have a
right to go into any given part of the United States to, if possible,
bring about certain enlightenment of statements and facts made by
candidates for the enlightenment of the public and their education
before going into voting.
Senator Mundt. T^et us take a hypothetical case. Let us say that
the candidate for Governor of New Mexico has a brother who is a
teamster in Detroit. And you decide to throw your influence against
the candidate for Governor of New Mexico whose brother is a team-
ster in Detroit. You collect from him his dues and his money, and
then, consequently, compel him to contribute money to defeat his
brother in New Mexico. Do you think that is good democratic
practice ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I would say that it certainly is a hypothetical
case.
Senator Mundt. But not impossible. Brothers cross State lines
just like teamsters money crosses State lines.
Mr. HoFFA. I would say. Senator, if it did happen, and if the mem-
bership approved of the expenditures of the funds, and actually they
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5049
are the final authority on it, I would see nothing undemocratic about
the situation.
Senator Mundt. Nothing undemocratic about taxing a man to try
to defeat his own brother ?
Mr. HoFFA. I said that if the membership approved, Senator.
Senator Mundt. Well, if the membership approves. You said it
would be done by the membership or by the officers or both.
Mr. HoFFA. That is what I said. You are right.
Senator Mundt. So it might be done by the officers. It is so much
easier that way, so much quicker. It probably would be done by the
officers.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. The answer that I would give you, Senator, is this:
Maybe my counsel don't agree, but I am responsible to the members
welfare, and I maintain the fact that wherever there is an elected
official that is in opposition to the union for the purpose of destruc-
tion of the union or refuse to promote legislation in behalf of the
working people of that State, that it is the responsibility of the leaders
of labor to enlighten the general public to situations which they may
not become acquainted with because of the facts not being circulated
to the point that the average citizen would know of it in his own city
or State.
The Chairman. Go ahead. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. Do you not think that the people of New Mexico,
the truckers included, have the capacity to present to their fellow
voters the attitudes of the candidates?
Mr. HoFFA. Unfortunately, Senator, attitudes must be expressed
and expression today costs money.
Senator Mundt. It is pretty difficult for me to square any system
of compulsory contributions to campaigns with a concept of democratic
processes in the labor unions.
Mr. HoFFA. Of course, Senator, you understand when we talk about
donations of money, we are not talking about Federal elective jobs.
You understand that.
Senator Mundt. I understand that. We are talking about the Gov-
ernor of New Mexico, and that is purely a hypothetical case.
Mr. HoFFA. I understand.
Senator Mundt. But we are talking about money which is collected
from union members by compulsion. They have no choice. If they
belong to the union they pay the dues, do they not ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, that isn't true. There isn't a member belong-
ing to a union today that if a majority of the people in that particular
plant or particular truck company decides they do not want the union
that they are represented by, they can use the Taft-Hartley law which
you gentlemen passed, some of you
Senator Mundt. Are you in favor of that law ?
Mr. HoFFA. Some of you passed, to be able to go to the board
and either decertify, without losing the benefit of the union but de-
certify the actual union shop, but maintain their representation, or, if
they desire, they can go about having a decertification of the entire
representation.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Hoffa, that has nothing to do with compulsion.
Your income tax and mine to the Federal Government is none the less
compulsory because the majority of the people or the majority of the
5050 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Congress votes it in. It is a compulsory payment. I question the
democracy of using compulsory payments in political campaigns where
union members have to contribute money to causes and to candidates
whom they might prefer to oppose.
Mr. HoFFA. I would be willmg to debate the issue with you, Senator,
in front of any group of union men in this country, and let them make
the decision.
Senator Mundt. We have a wonderful place right here in front of
the union men and the rest of the public and they are also interested.
Mr. HoFFA. Except the fact that they can't vote here. I have a
meeting of my local union in September, three of them, which I will in-
vite anybody that wants to come to the membership meetings, and I
will arrange for special notices to be posted to discuss this problem
and be advised in the future by the vote of the members who attend
those meetings.
Senator Ives- Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator Ives. I am just curious- Mr. Hoffa, in this connection : First,
as to how many members attend your union meetings when these
matters are approved. You have 199 and 237. Those are the two
unions with which you are specially connected, are they not ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. 299, that is my particular local.
Senator I^'ES. How large is the membership of 299 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe we average about 14,000 members.
Senator Ives. 14,000 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives- And 237, what is that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere between 8 and 10. I am not sure. 337.
Senator Ives. I assume that your activities in this connection are
approved by your members. That is, you give us that idea from
what you say.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Senator Ives, How do they approve it? Do you have regular
meetings that approve it ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir. We have three meetings a month of the divi-
sions I outlined yesterday.
Senator I\tes. How many attend each meeting ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would say generally in my city cartage group I
would have from 100 to 500. I would say in the roadway meeting I
would have a similar amount. I would say in the car-haul division of
my local union that I am president of, we would have anywhere from
25 to whatever number wanted to appear. But I want to say this to
you. Senator, that you must recognize the fact that we have stewards
and committeemen in each company. Those stewards and commit-
teemen make up the bulk of the meeting. When they make an expres-
sion in that meeting, they are expressing, in my humble opinion, the
reaction of the members that are on the docks, driving the trucks, that
they are in personal daily contact with.
Senator Ives. I understand your problem there with the teamsters,
because you are on the road a good deal of the time, and it is hard
for some of them to get to the meetings. I can realize that. You
see what I am driving at, do you not ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir ; I do.
IMPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5051
Sentor Ives. It is one of our big problems with which we are faced
in labor relations, the matter of getting people to attend meetings,
members of the union. What you have indicated here indcates that
only a small percentage get to your meeting.
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Ives- You admit that. And yet you think that small per-
centage represents the attitudes of the whole, if your stewards are
reporting correctly, they probably do. What happens when the
stewards do not report correctly ? What can the members do ?
Mr. HoFFA. I will give you the best answer in the w^orld. You
take something to the floor where there are 500 members and you
get it passed, and you let it get out on the street for the next 30 days
what happened in that meeting, and nothing remains secret in a meet-
ing— I think you are well aware of that.
Senator Ives. I am aware of that.
Mr, HoFFA. And I assure you at the next meeting you better have
the auditorium, because they will all be there to correct what you
did at the next meeting.
Senator Iytss. Have you ever had that happen ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, because I have never abused my authority.
Senator Ives. I am not talking about that. I am talking about
the teamsters generally.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, I saw it happen.
Senator Ives. You have? What happened?
Mr. HoFFA. I attended a meeting some months ago where a local
union was placed in trusteeship, and prior to the placing of the
local in trusteeship there was a considerable amount of disturbance
in the local union. Rumor got out on the street that the local
union — rather, that the trustee was going to do certain things in
the local union in the way of changing administration which didn't
please the members.
Word came to my office, and I attended a meeting.
I assure you that we had to have the Keil Auditorium in St. Louis
to accommodate the people who came to that meeting.
Senator Ives. Plow many members were there in that particular
union ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think they must have roughly six or seven thousand
members.
Senator Ives. And the auditorium would hold that many?
Mr. HoFFA. It would hold more than that.
Senator Ives. I am much interested in that to know that they
can finally express themselves, because that is one of the great
problems with which we are faced.
The next thing I want to ask you is this: You seem to be very
interested, your particular conference, your joint council out there,
about what happens in the rest of the country.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, sir.
Senator Ives. What happens if all of the rest of the conferences
and councils got interested in what happened in the rest of the
country? Would you not be tangling with each other? Ar3 you
not the only one who is interested in w^hat happens in the east ? Who
is? The Far West, the Pacific coast councils, are they interested
in what happens on the Atlantic coast ?
89330 — 57— pt. 13 9
5052 IMPROPER ACnVITIElS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, it so happens I have put 25 years of my life
in this international union and I am 44 years old. I don't propose^
whether I am the only one or not, I don't propose to shirk my re-
sponsibility to my members or to the officers I represent in the cen-
tral conference, even though I am getting undue publicity for doing
it, for going into areas trying to convert them into our thinking
and our new way of operating unions in regards to the necessity of
coordinated action. Even though I am severely criticized, and that
is one of the reasons I am here today, I will continue to do it as long
as I am a member of organized labor.
Senator Ives. Let me point this out in all fairness to you, Mr.
Hoffa. After all is said and done, you are only a part of the inter-
national, and I assume your parent body, the international itself,
will decide whether you are doing the right thing or not and can
stop you if you are not, can it not ?
Mr. Hoffa. I have had some pretty serious tangles over what I
do
Senator Ives. Has not the international the authority to stop you ?
Mr. Hoffa. They have the authority to stop me, but I think in
every instance I have been able to pi'esent my side of the story with
a sufficient number of officers who believe as I believe, that we have
been able to convince the officials of our international union to the
philosophy of having organizational coordinated effort rather than
individualized effort of local unions.
Senator Ives. Then j'ou have had the consent of the international
in this thing?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. And you probably are doing this thing with the
consent of the other joint conferences ?
Mr. Hoffa, In every mstance.
Senator Ives. All right. That is all I want to know.
jMr. Hoffa. In every instance, sir.
The Chairman. Senator Goldwater.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Hoffa, do you invest moneys in Federal
elections ?
Mr. HoFFA. Do I invest moneys?
Senator Goldwater, For the union ?
Mr, HoFFA, No, sir.
Senator Goldwater. You mentioned to Senator Mundt that you
do put moneys into local elections, such as gubernatorial elections?
Mr. PIoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Could you tell us some of the States in which
you have put money in the last election ?
Mr. Hoffa. I believe in Iowa
Senator Goldwater. Do you remember how much ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir ; I don't. I think that was submitted, I think,
by Gibbons.
' Was it not, Mr. Kennedy ?
Mr. Kenxedy. I don't know. I don't remember it.
Senator Goldwater. Wliat other States?
Mr. Hoffa. Michigan. There was some money spent in Kansas,
I don't Ivuow for what particular office. Well, I can't tell you all.
Senator Goldwater. How about New York?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5053
Mr. HOFFA. No.
Senator Goldwatek. Pennsylvania?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Senator Goldwatek. Ohio?
Mr. HoFFA. Excuse me.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. And Kentucky. I am informed Kentucky.
Senator Goldwater. But not in Pennsylvania, Ohio-
Mr. HoFFA. No. Primarily I stay in my own district in regards
to the question of politics.
Senator Goldwater. Do you ever get out in the Far West?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I do not, sir.
Senator Goldwater. How about the attempt last year to pass the
right-to-work law in the State of Washington. Did your organiza-
tion put any money against that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not our particular organization, I do not believe so.
Senator Goldwater. We know that some of the teamsters organ-
izations did. I wondered if your particular group did.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so, sir. I don't recall it.
Senator Goldwater. Were the reasons for investing or putting
money into these gubernatorial contests that you mentioned here
solely ones based on your thoughts that they might be against your
union or against trucking?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, we are advised by our local representatives as to
their local situation, and when they advise us as to the local situation,
if they need money in that area we believe it is our responsibility to
raise the money to assist them where they require assistance.
Senator Goij)Water. Do you always work through the locals?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. Or the joint council, which is comprised of
the locals.
Senator Goldwater. I ask you that because if my memory serves
me correctly, the teamsters local in my hometown denied any knowl-
edge of a Far West contribution to a certain campaign in my State.
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Senator Goldwater. But you, yourself, always work through the
locals ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have to work through the locals. Otherwise you lose
control of the situation.
Senator Goldwater. And these are the only States that you can
remember, Iowa
Mr, HoFFA. Offhand ; yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. And Kansas. Have you supplied a list to
the staff?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. I think that Harold Gibbons of the central
conference is either supplying a list or making one up, I am not cer-
tain. But there is something going on in that way right this moment,
I believe.
Senator Goldwater. Is that correct, Mr. Counsel?
Mr. Kennedy. I am not aware. He is supplying some information,
and I don't know if that is one or not.
Senator Goldwater. In case he does not supply that, would you
make sure that he does supply it, with the amounts ?
Mr. HoFFA. If he is listening, I assume he will. And I will see to
it ; yes, sir.
5054 IMPROPEK ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Kennedy. In the case of the $5,000, Mr. Iloffa, you took
$5,000 from the Michigan local and spent it in a Philadelphia or Pitts-
burgh local ?
Mr. HoFFA. Philadelphia, sir, from the Michigan conference.
Senator Kennedy. Was that in a contest between two people in the
local union for president ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Kennedy. You stated about the Democratic National Com--
mittee and Republican National Committee. I never heard of the
national connnittee giving money to one candidate in a Democractic
or Republican primary.
Mr. HoFFA. Possibly so.
Senator Kennedy. It would not be so. They are supposed to be
neutral in their party structure. I do not really see what business it is
of yours, to accurate about it, what business it is of yours who is selected
president among two members of the teamsters union in a local in
Philadelphia. Whj is it your business?
You use union funds to influence the choice of two teamster union
members in an election for president. AVhat is the theory behind
that?
Mr. HoFFA. The theory is very simple. One of self-preservation
for the members of a local union that has interstate business concern-
ing the local union that your are assisting.
Senator Kennedy. Do you feel that as a general principle, when-
ever in your judgment it is in the best interest of the teamsters, that
it is proper for you to spend union funds to influence the election in
any teamster local in the country ?
Mr, HoFFA. Not my personal say-so. But after I have consulted
the responsible people, and if they agree, then I do believe that we
have a right to take a position of presenting, of being able to present,
views to members who ultimately will make their own decision.
Senator Kennedy. You stated that your own local has over a mil-
lion dollars in the treasury ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Therefore, you have this large amount of money
belonging to your local, and it is only one of the locals in which you
have strong influence, and you believe that it is proper any time
there is an election in any local in the country, when you and what
you call the responsible people, which may be your definition of them,
whenever you reel that jou get their agreement, you then feel it is
possible to spend this money to influence the electioii between two
teamsters in anj^ local in the country? Is that your opinion, Mr.
Hoffa?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, we dont influence the individual member. "\Ye
try to give the individual candidate sufficient help in advising the
members of why he is the potential best candidate. I may say that
in this instance, Senator, the man who won the election turned out to
be a better man for the members than the man that we supported.
And I don't mind admitting it.
Senator Kennedy. I understand the man is under investigation by
the committee.
I am not so concerned about the actual details. I am just tallring
about A and B and your theory of responsibility. You are a rising
figure in the teamster movement. I am just interested in your sense
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5055
of ^Yllat is proper and what is improper. We have heard your judo--
ment. We have seen some of the records of the action which you
have been interested in, business dealinos with people who are em-
ployers in the trucking industry, and we have seen a business relation-
ship between Mr. Dorfman, who has a major position and gets great
benefits from the union welfare and pension plans. We have seen a
good many of these in the last 2 days.
Now we see another place where you feel that it is proper for you,
when you make your judgment, and you help what you consider
to be positive people — and I think we will see today some of the
people you have been in consultation with before — that you feel it
is proper that you should spend money of the teamsters union to
influence the election of a local in another State.
I just feel that that attitude of concentration of power in your
hands, Mr. Hotf a, which it inevitably would lead to, is not in the best
interest of the teamsters union or the public.
Mr. HoFFA. I will be perfectly willing to leave to the members,
who are the individuals who originally were responsible for accu-
mulating this money, to make that decision. Senator.
I will venture to say that those members realizing that what can
happen in Philadelphia today can affect Detroit tomorrow, will be
the first ones to agree that it is necessary for such an operation.
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, at the present time you are the
trustee of how many locals?
(The witness conferred with his comisel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Probably 16. I am so advised.
Senator Kennedy. Sixteen or seventeen?
ISIr. Hoffa. I am so advised.
Senator Kjennedy. You are so advised ? You don't know yourself ?
Mr. Hoffa. I have them here if you would like me to read them.
Senator Kennedy. I would like to know how many locals you are
the trustee of.
Mr. Hoffa. I have the list here.
Senator Kennedy. I have the list, too. How often do you visit
them ?
Mr. Hoffa. I have it here.
Senator Kennedy. I have it. How often do you visit them?
Mr. Hoffa. I certainly can only be in one place at a time, and when
I am appointed the trustee by the international union, I make it my
business to appoint an executive board.
"\¥hen the necessity arises to consult with that board, I consult
with it, regardless of how often it may be necessary.
Or, in many instances where we have a State chairman, I request
that the State chairman, who is the closest person to the situation in
his State, watch over the local union and report to me, and when he
deems it advisable I then will consult with the representatives of
those locals in trusteeship.
Senator Ivennedy. Mr. Hoffa, we have had some figures which
show that about 12 percent of all of the locals of the teamsters are
under trusteeship. We had a witness from the western conference,
who I think was the business agent put in by Mr. Beck, who didn't
know why the local was in trusteeship, and who didn't know what
procedure should be followed to take the local out of trusteeship.
5056 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR MELD
What is your opinion, first, as to what the time limitation should
be on the trusteeship ?
What are the procedures of getting out of trusteeship ?
Mr. HopTA. Each 6 months after a local union has been placed in
trusteeship, it has a right, under section 6 (a) to file a petition with
the general president for the right of restoration of local autonomy.
Senator Kennedy. Wlien was the last time when any of the locals
under your control filed any such petition ?
Mr. HoFFA. Maybe 2 or 3 years ago, I believe.
Senator Kennedy, Here are 16 locals which have the opportunity
every 6 months. You have stated that none of them have filed such a
petition in the last 2 or 3 years.
Mr. HoFFA. I think that indicates that they are satisfied with the
trusteeship, sir.
Senator Kennedy. It could indicate that or it could indicate that
your control is rather complete in those locals. Do you feel it is a satis-
factory procedure to have 16 locals, to have more than a hundred locals
of the teamsters in general, under trusteeship, some for a period of
10 years ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, let's correct the record for Hoffa, will you ?
Senator Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Hoffa. I have some four-hundred-odd local unions that I am
accounted for, and if 16 local unions out of some four-hundred-odd
local unions — and these are the smallest local unions in the area —
are under trusteesliip, I think that it is an indication that we do not
use our authority just to control local unions, but rather to preserve
the membership status of these local unions.
Senator Kennedy. How many local unions are there in the team-
sters ? Eight-hundred-odd ?
Mr. Hoffa. Eight-hundred-odd ; yes, sir.
Senator Kjennedy. How many are in trusteeship over the country ?
Mr. Hoffa. I only know and can speak of of my own division.
Senator Kennedy. You are talking about your responsibility for
one-half of all the locals in the country. You must have some idea
of how many in the country are in trusteeship.
Mr. Hoffa. I haven't made it my business to determine the num-
ber of local unions in the conferences other than mine that I have
responsibility for.
Senator Ivennedy. Out of the 400 that you have responsibility
for, and I am not talking about those under your personal trustee-
ship, but those imder trusteeship.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, if you don't hold me to a figure, I will give you a
guess.
Senator Kjennedy. What is your guess ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would say probably 20 or 22.
Senator Kjennedy. In other words, out of the other 400 comes the
remaining 80 that are in trusteeship ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would think so, sir.
Senator Kennedy. That is your judgment?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Let's take the trusteeship which you have
Mr. Kj:nnedy. How many did you say were under trusteeship in
the central conference ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5057
Mr. HoFFA. I believe 20 or 22. Don't hold me accountable for it.
I only have the ones that I am trustee over and you are askino- me to
guess.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know how many locals under the Central
Conference of Teamsters are under trusteeship ? Your guess is 20 ?
Mr. HoFFA. 20 or 22. I can certainly find out this afternoon very
•easily exactly how many there are in the international records if you
desire.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Gibbons, do you know how many locals he is
trustee of ?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand I wouldn't try to guess, because I had to
compile my own list.
Mr. Kennedy. Between you and Mr. Gibbons you get over 20.
He is trustee of about 7 locals.
You don't know that about the central conference of teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. I know the central conference of teamsters' structure,
and I also know that the information that I was required to prepare
is here. If you want additional information, I will be happy to
secure the information so I can properly answer you rather than make
it look as though I don't miderstand Avhat is going on in the central
conference, because I don't think there is anybody better acquainted
with what is going on in the central conference than I am.
Senator Ivennedy. Mr. Hoffa, let's take the Joplin local that you
are the trustee for.
Mr. HoFFA. The Joplin local union is not in trusteeship, sir. It
has been returned to its own status.
Senator Kennedy. AVlien was it in trusteeship ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think it was in trusteeship up until last year. I
personally went down and conducted the nominations. Wlien I
couldn't get back for the election, I had somebody else go in and
conduct the election.
(At this point Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Senator Kennedy. Was Floyd Webb a trustee ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir — no, Floyd Webb was not a trustee. I was a
trustee.
Senator Ivennedy. He is listed here as a trustee.
Mr. HoFFA. No. I was a trustee of that local union.
Senator Kennedy. Wlio was Floyd Webb ?
Mr. HoFFA. Floyd Webb was an officer appointed by myself as a
trustee.
Senator ICennedy. I understand.
Mr. HoFFA. He probably was listed there. Senator Kennedy, for
purposes of mail as such.
Senator Kennedy. He was appointed by you as trustee?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator ICennedy. Had he been president of the union before ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Wliy was he thrown out as president, or re-
moved ?
Mr. Hoffa. There was quite a ruckus in the local miion. A faction
developed in the local union. That faction that developed in the
local union, in the decision of the majority of those individuals who
attended a meeting which I attended, decided the local union ought
5058 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
to be in trusteeship until it was adjusted. At the same time, there
was some turmoil going on in the union in regards to an investigation
of Webb. Webb, also, was being charged with some incidents that
took place, I believe, in Oklahoma, w^hich were later on dropped, and
Mr. Webb, despite the propaganda that was put out against him, is
the respectable citizen in the city today, and was elected by unanimous
action of the members of that local union.
So if there is something wrong with that, I will accept the re-
sponsibility.
Senator Kennedy. Wasn't the difficulty that he was under the
purchasing of personal goods out of union funds? Isn't that what
the ruckus was about ?
Mr. HoFFA. I may say that that was corrected, and the record will
show that that was untrue, sir.
Senator Kennedy. And then when the ruckus began over his spend-
ing union funds for his own use, and you came down as trustee, you
then named him as trustee?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so. I named myself — I was trustee, and
I am quite sure that Webb was only the person who received the mail
as an officer. He was never trustee.
Senator Kennedy. He was named by you to run the union?
Mr. HoFFA, That is correct, sir.
Senator Kennedy. After these charges had been made; is that
correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. "\ATiat about the Pontiac local ?
Mr. PIoFFA. That is a ])eculiar one, and I will take the responsi-
bility for that if there is any.
Senator Kennedy. Isn't it the fact that two of the officers, Keating
and Louis Linteau, were convicted?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Senator Kennedy. And then the local was in trusteeship ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Senator Kennedy^. Then who did you name to be in charge of the
local?
Mr. HoFFA. Leon Harrelson was made president, a former State
legislator, who was a member of the teamsters union.
Senator Kennedy. Were Keating and Linteau named to any posi-
tion ?
Mr. HoFFA. For the time being, until their trial, as business agents.
Senator Kennedy, After they were indicted, and by you; is that
correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. After they were indicted ; yes.
Senator Kennedy. They were named by you as business agents.
They were convicted then, weren't they?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Do you feel that was a good judgment on your
part to name two men under indictment ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I don't believe that an indictment is a question
of conviction, and I do not believe it was my responsibility to remove
them to have the public generated to believing they were guilty prior
to trial.
Senator Kennedy. They were under indictment for extortion and
were found guilty ; is that correct ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5059
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, they were not found guilty for extortion.
Senator Kennedy. A^^iat were they found guilty of ?
Mr. HoFFA. I will have to find out. Just a moment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I understand from my attorney they were convicted —
they plead guilty to a conspiracj^ to violate the commercial bribery
statute in Michigan.
Senator Kennedy. Well, then, bribery instead of extortion.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Kennedy. In other words, then, we had a case of trustee-
ship of a union where two of the officers were indicted for bribery,
and the union went into trusteeship. You became the trustee and
you named the two men under indictment for bribery as business
agents and they were later convicted?
Mr. HoFFA. You are right. I knew they were indicted at the time.
Senator Kennedy. What did you say ?
Mr. HoFFA. I knew they were indicted at the time when they were
awaiting trial.
Senator Kennedy. You didn't suspend them as officers?
Mr. HoFFA. I suspended them as officers ; yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. You named them as business agents?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, without authority to make decisions.
Senator Kennedy. Who paid their legal fees, et cetera ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I think the joint council.
Senator Kennedy. I just have one more local.
Mr. HoFFA. Let's get back to that 814, if you please, and let's find
out something.
The implication is left, apparently, that there is something peculiar
about it. I would like to give you just one figure, if I may, sir.
When the local union was taken over — just a moment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. When the local union was taken over, it had $17,486.43
in the bank. Today, under administratorship, it has $233,279.79.
It had at that time that it was taken over, approximately 1,200 to
1,500 members regularly paying dues. Today the town is entirely
organized, and the membership, to the best of my knowledge, and
there have been meetings called since your representatives were in
the area, are satisfied that the local union shall remain in trusteeship.
They have been advised, both in the press and in the meetings, any
time they want to file a petition for restoration of their right of
local autonomy they are able to do so and will receive consideration.
I invited the press into a meeting, and the big glaring headlines
came out, I invited the press to attend the meeting and listen to what
the expression of the membership was in this trusteeship, and I be-
lieve that when the press left, and they so stated, that the members
w^ere satisfied with the operation of the local union.
Senator Mundt. Will the Senator yield on that point ?
Senator Kennedy. Yes.
Senator Mundt. You made a great deal, Mr. Hoffa, of the point
that the unions in trusteeship can file a petition. Straighten me out
on that. I mean, filing a petition is one thing. It is not necessarily
a mandate on the general president so that he has to grant the pe-
tition. They can file it and he can turn it down ; is that correct ?
5060 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. You are correct, sir.
Senator Mundt. I wanted to get that straight.
Mr. HoFFA. I want to say to you that we are changing our constitu-
tion on my recommendation to our caucus committee. I will be very
happy to read it to you. I think it will solve a lot of problems in
3^our mind concerning trusteeship. It would take a minute, to do so,
if you would like for me to do so.
Senator Mundt. We have a minute. Go ahead. We have had
a lot of complaints about trusteeship, and one of the complaints is
that they can file a petition from now until the cow jumps over the
moon, and the president can say "nyet, nyet," and nothing happens.
Senator Kennedy. As I understand, this is a proposal that you are
putting f orAvard ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is a suggestion of our caucus.
I will be very happy to supply you with a copy also, if you want
it. I will give each Senator a copy.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. On page 3 of our suggested change, we say in No. 3 :
Trusteeship shall be granted only after a hearing —
today they are granted without a hearing —
except in the case of threat of cessation, and shall be limited to 2 years'
duration.
Senator Kennedy. How many ?
Mr. HoFFA. Two years, sir. [Reading :]
Unless the board, after adequate review on the basis of a written memorandum
of reasons determines on continuation.
Now there is more verbiage to this than appears here, because —
this is just a draft for our membership — we are saying that we believe
that before you put a local into trusteeship, there should be a meeting
to determine the necessity of trusteeship, not just by an individual
but those who are interested. We believe that they should have these
6 months to file a petition, and if the petition is rejected, the rights
to appear in front of the executive board and have a written explana-
tion as to why it is rejected.
Senator Kennedy. I think those are improvements. I am glad to
see that these improvements are being made. We discussed two of
them yesterday. One was the conflict of interest. You stated you
were disposing of your stocks and bonds.
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't say that. I said I was disposing of my
businesses.
Senator Kennedy. And the other was the question of the propriety
of Mr. Dorfman continuing his intimate association with your welfare
and pension plan. You informed us that after next year he will not
have that.
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, I didn't say that. I want to correct the record.
I said that he will not have a license to be able to operate, and I assume
that there will be a new representative for the insurance company.
Senator Kennedy. Now we are talking about trusteeship. The
last local that I want to discuss with you is local 71, down in Charlotte,
N. C, Mr. A. L. Gunnert.
Mr. HoFFA. In that particular instance, that is under the eastern
conference, and I coukln't give you any answers other than the fact
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5061
that I know the individual you are talking about. The particulars I
don't know.
Senator Kennedy. Did you go down there ?
Mr. HoFFA. To negotiate a contract only, sir.
Senator Kennedy. You had nothing to do with placing it under
trusteeship ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. I am glad to hear of this improvement. I think
this question of trusteeship has been one of the major problems in the
teamsters, keeping locals in trusteeship year after year without any
definite procedure for getting them out of trusteeship, some, as I say,
going on for more than 10 years, and being able to vote them, never-
theless, in elections, vote their members.
I think it gives excessive control to the leadership of the teamsters,
and, therefore, I am hopeful that the procedure which you have
suggested will be adopted.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe our convention delegates will unanimously
adopt it, because it affects each and every local union.
Senator Kennedy. The only other point is, Mr. Hoffa, that I think
you said there were somewhere around 20 locals in the central con-
ference under trusteeship ?
Mr. Hoffa. Twenty or twenty-two, I think.
Senator Kennedy. The figures we have shows there are 37.
Mr. Hoffa. There are quite a few that have been taken out, sir. I
don't know when your list was compiled.
Senator Kennedy. These are the latest figures.
Mr. Hoffa. I don't want to take the time of your committee, but if
you will give me your list, I will give you an answer as to whether
it is correct and tell you what happened to those.
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. Do you have a local union under trusteeship in
Peoria, ni?
Mr. Hoffa. I will tell you in a moment.
(Members of the select committee present at this point in the
proceedings : Senators McClellan, Ives, Kennery, McNamara, Mundt,
and Goldwater. )
Mr. Hoffa. No. The local union appearing in the book on page
55 is local union 627. Mr. W. V. Hughes is stated here as a repre-
sentative. Unless it has been of recent duration since this book was
published, it would not be in trusteeship.
Senator Mundt. How long ago was the book published ?
Mr. Hoffa. In April 1957. I can check it and let you know, but I
have to go by the book otherwise.
Senator Mundt. I have had a lot of correspondence from union
members in Peoria, 111., about a union in trusteeship. I am not
positive that it is a teamsters union.
Mr. Hoffa. Just a moment. Now that you say that you did, I can
recollect the fact that it is in trusteeship, and Mr. John T. O'Brien, a
vice president out of Chicago, I am quite sure is the trustee.
Senator Mundt. In Peoria?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir, I think it is. I think it is of recent date,
though.
Mr. Kennedy. I think that is Peru, 111. ; isn't it ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, I think it is both. Peru, 111. I think it is both.
5062 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. Do you know the circumstances of that trustee-
ship ?
Mr. HoFFA. ISTot enough to talk about it ; no, sir.
The Chairman. If we may get back a moment to the question of
some of these securities, I have received information, since I inter-
rogated you a while ago, to the effect that McLean Industries own the
McLean Trucking Co.
Is that correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I don't want to dispute what j^ou collect as
information, but my recollection is that the ICC had a hearing and
they directed that the 2 — the waterway and the land transporta-
tion— be separated into 2 separate and distinct operations.
The Chairmax. This information saj'S that McLean Industries own
the McLean Trucking Co.
Mr. HoFFA. That could possibly happen, but I think, as I said
before. Pan-Atlantic now is the question of the waterway, sir.
The Chairman. And they also point out that this information
is in the files of the ICC from some hearing that was held there.
Mr. HoFFA. I will check it. I think that is incorrect, sir, but it is
easy to find out.
The Chairman. I want to ask you one other question.
You have been interrogated some about locals and trusteeship.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is local 332, Flint, Mich., in trusteeeship?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
The Chairman. I liave a telegram here. I will read the substance
of it and let you comment on it. It says :
I wish to inform you that a large number of local teamster unions in this
area are being denied their right to send elected delegates to the International
Teamsters Convention in Milwaukee.
The telegram is dated August 21, 1957. Do jou wish to comment
on it?
Mr. HoFFA. I will this afternoon after I talk to Claude Sutton, who
is secretary-trasurer, or the president, Jack Thompson.
The Chairman. He says a large number of locals. I don't know
liow many. That is under your jurisdiction up there, is it not?
]\Ir. HoFFA. As I say, I have no comment to make, sir, until I
check it, but I will be happy to check the details and let you know.
The Chairman. I have other such telegrams as this one that just
came in awhile ago.
Mr. HoFFA. You understand there are two ways of having delegates
go to the convention under our constitution.
The Chairman. How are they elected when the}^ are under trustee-
ship ?
]Mr. HoFFA. Tlie same as when they have local autonomy, either by
the membership granting the board the right to appoint or the member-
ship having an election. They have that right.
Th Chairman. Do the trustees appoint the delegates ?
Mr. HoFFA. If the membership approves ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. So where you are trustee in 16 locals or 17 locals,
if 3^ou could get the approval of the membership through some way,
you can appoint the delegates to the convention?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, it has been my experience that if you can
get the membership to approve the appointment, you can get them to
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5063
also elect the delegates that are the best qualified to go to the
convention.
(At this point Senator Keiniedy witlidrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. The question is about control of the elections.
Mr. HoFFA. I understand.
The Chairman. We have had a little testimony around here about
that, and the question arose in my mind over this number of trustee-
ships. As I remember, we have liad testimony in the past to the
effect that where they were in trusteeship, there was no election, and
just as all the other officers they were appointed by the trustees.
Mr, HoFFA. Officers are appointed, sir.
The Chairman. Yes, and the delegates are also appointed by the
trustee.
Mr. HoFFA. It could happen, if they had approval of the member-
shi]) ; yes, sir.
The Chakman. Wliat do you mean by "approval of the member-
ship" ? How do they approve ?
Mr. HoFFA. Those who attend a meeting.
The Chairman. A minority of the membership might approve?
Mr. HoFFA. Whoever attends the meeting. Just like Congress, if
thei-e are only a few on the floor and a bill is passed, that becomes
the bill.
The Chairman. Anyone can raise an objection to it in Congress and
have a quorum call, and no action can take place until a quorum is
present.
Mr. HoFFA, If they pass bylaws in our local union, they can do
the same thing, sir. But the bylaws control the question of opera-
tion of the union.
The Chairman. Just a moment. Let us see if that is correct. I
do not think I misunderstood you.
In other words, in a local union if they get there and there is not
a majority of the membership present, anyone can raise an objection
that they will not transact business until the membership is there ?
Mr. Hoffa. I said they can pass bylaws setting up the number of
members to be present if they wish to do so.
Senator Ives. You have no process by which you can force a ma-
jority of your members to be present, have you ?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't say that.
Senator Ives. I know you did not. That is the question I am rais-
ing. You have no means by which you can get them to be present.
Mr. Hoffa. You took it away from us.
Senator Ives. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. HoFFA. When you passed the Taft-Hartley law, you made it
prohibitive to place into effect the mandatory appearance at meetings
every so often and the only way you can have a mandatory appear-
ance at meetings would be by a fine or suspension.
Senator Ives. There is nothing in the Taft-Hartley Act regarding
the matter that I know of. Would you like to have that put back in
the law ?
Mr. HoFFA. There was never a law. to my knowledge, sir.
Senator Ives. All right. I didn't know there was either.
Mr. HoFFA. Except the fact, sir, that under the Taft-Hartley law,
if a man refused to attend a special called meeting or a regular meet-
5064 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ing at any period of time, whether it be once each 3 months, once each
6 months, or once a year, there is nothing a union could do about it to-
day except expel a man from the union after filing charges against
him and having a hearing and that same individual could still work
on the job and refuse to attend or go along with the majority.
Senator I^^s. I am not arguing with you about that. I understand
there is no way by the law that you can get anybody to attend meet-
ings. I am asking if there is any way you can get them to attend.
Mr, HoFFA. When you have a contract, Senator, that affects their
economic life for a given period of time, you don't have to make them
come to a meeting. They voluntarily come.
But after they have voted on the contract which they have a right to
have a copy of, they, themselves, reserve the right whether or not to
come to the union meetings, and generally when they come, if they
have a dispute or they are dissatisfied, they do come.
Senator I^^ss, I understand all that, and I understand the situation
regarding contracts. What we are talking about, however, was the
vBlection of delegates in your international convention.
Mr. HoFFA, I answered it, sir.
Senator Ives, You have no way that you can get a majority of your
members to go to a meeting of that kind, that I know of, is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA, I understand, sir, that you had Tom Hickey here re-
cently testifying.
Their local union run a referendum vote amongst all of the mem-
bers for the delegates to attend the convention. Less than a majority
of their total members, even though they all received ballots, responded
to who they were desirous of sending to the convention.
Senator Iyes. But they did not have this happen at the meetings?
Mr, HoFFA, No, they had nominations at the meeting, sir, and then
the nominations were printed and sent to each individual member.
Senator Ives. That is what I mean. That is what I am talking
about.
The Chairman. Senator McNamara?
Senator McNamara. I would like to ask the witness this question :
Is it not a fact that the local unions generally decide the minimum
number required to hold a meeting ?
Mr. HoFFA. I say they have that right ; yes.
Senator McNamara, Do they not generally do it? Is it not the
established procedure in the bylaws that it requires a certain number
to be present?
Mr, HoFFA, Seven members is a quorum.
Senator McNamara. It varies in various unions?
Mr, HoFFA. As I said, they could make their own rules.
Senator McNamara, So they have the machinery to raise it to a
majority or a third, the machinery is established, so there is no ban
on the rank and file to do it.
It could be done, because they have control, they do establish these
laws.
Mr. HoFFA. As I stated for the record, that is exactly right.
Senator McNamara. I simply want to repeat that this could be
accomplished if it was the desire of the membership.
There has been some discussion on the large percentage of teamster
locals in trusteeship in the area that you have charge of. Is it a large
percentage or a small percentage?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5065
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, there is a little difference between the com-
mittee's report and my understanding. I made the statement that
I believe out of four hundred-odd local unions, there is roughly 22.
They have a different figure. I personally, sir, have 17.
Senator McNamara. You have 17?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. And you apparently are setting up new ma-
chinery that will make it, shall we say, easier for the local unions to
get out of trusteeship?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator McNamara. You do not include in this new machinery a
recommendation that the local unions should, by rank and file vote,
express a desire?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes. They file another petition.
Senator McNamara. That would be more or less left to the local
unions ?
Mr. HoFFA. It will definitely be left to the local unions in regard
to restoration of their autonomy.
Senator McNamara. We are talking in this committee with the
main objective or main purpose of the committee being to see whether
or not new legislation is required.
Do you agree that the most important level of the trade union move-
ment is the one closets to the membership ? In other words, the local
union ?
Mr. Hoffa. The local union is actually the membership. They can
change the ground rules at any meeting they decide to change the
ground rules and, if the officers don't like to accept their ground rules,
they will change the officers. That is my experience.
Senator McNamara. So, as in Government, the most important is
the citizens, actually, although they do not generally accept it so,
the closest unit of government.
Mr. HoFFA. There is no question.
Senator McNamara. The county council in the city of Detroit is
really more important to the citizen than the top.
Mr. Hoffa. That is where their expressions are viewed from the
average man on the street.
Senator McNamara. Do you agree if we are looking to legislate that
would be an important area, that we ought to give serious considera-
tion to the closest unit, the local unit, to the membership?
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly do, sir.
The Chairman. Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. According to the figures from the international,
there are 37 locals of the central conference of teamsters under trustee-
ship. The total number of members is 77,497. The total number in
the locals under Harold Gibbons is 6,405. The total membership of
the locals under Hoffa's trusteeship is 31,410.
The locals under Hoffa's trusteeship will send 44 delegates to the
convention and the locals mider Gibbons trusteeship will send 10 dele-
gates to the convention.
Mr. HoFFA. I may say for the record, and I think you are aware of
the fact, that the central conference has well over a half of a million
members of this international union in it.
So, when you talk about 77,497 members, and you subtract that from
5066 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
a half of ii million members, von lind that a very small minority of
members are in trusteeships, regardless of the number of trusteeships.
The Chair:man. If these figures are correct, I think it would be
about 18 percent.
Mr. HorrA. Ivoughly, sir.
Mr. Kexnedy. And these members have no right to vote for their
officers. They are appointed by you, is that correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. Under trusteeship, that is correct,
Mr. Kennedy. That is what I am talking about, the locals under
trusteeship. They have no right to nominate or vote for their offi-
cers. They are appointed by James Hoil'a, the ones that are under
your trusteeship.
Mr, HoFFA. Well, now, that isn't correct. I don't want to argue
the point, but I want to clear the record. James IToHa as James
Holla can do nothing about appointing officers that isn't acceptable
to the members of a local union.
I don't know if j^ou ever attended a union meeting or not, but if
you attend a union meeting of the truck drivers luiions throughout
this country, the smallest and the largest, you will find out you don't
do business the way you think you do, because the membership
wouldn't be in the teamstei-s union.
Mr. Kexxedy, The point is that you do appoint officers of these
locals under your trusteeship, is that correct?
Mr, HoFFA. In some instances I do and in some instances I appoint
them and have them approved by the membership.
Mr. ICennedy. But you are the one that appoints them ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I have that right under the constitution. There
must be some rules,
Mr. Ivexxedy. That is all right.
We were talking about the situation in Philadelphia, and then I
want to go back to the checks. Did you also take an interest in Phila-
delphia in getting a charter for the hotel and restaurant workei-s?
Mr. HoFFA. To a minor degi-ee,
Mr. Ivexxedy. You intervened in that in Philadelphia ?
Mr, HoFFA. AVell, what actualh' happens, so we will get the record
clear, is that
Mr. Kex^x^edy. What year is it ?
Mr. HoFFA, It is either the latter part of 1955 or the first part of
1956. The latter part of 1956, isn't it ? You must have it.
Mr. Kexxt:dy, I believe it is,
Mr. HoFFA, Somewhere between there,
Mr. Kex'x^edy, And Mr, Shorty Feldman or Mr, Samuel Feldman
was looking for a charter,
Mr, HoFFA, No. sir: he wasn't.
Mr. Ivexxedy. Do you know Mr. Samuel Feldman ?
Mr, HoFFA, Just a moment,
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. May I correct the record. Senator McClellan?
The Chaiemax. Surely.
^Ir, HoFFA, Apparently, there is about 7 percent of the member
in the central conference that the trusteeship locals would concern
themselves with. Seven percent, not 17 percent.
The Chairmax, I based my 18 percent on the basis of 77,000 out
of 400-and-some thousand.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 5067
Mr. HoFFA. No, you said 77,000. Those figures are wrong.
You said 77, didn't you Bob?
Mr. Kennedy. I lost that paper.
Mr, HoFFA. I think we have to accept 77. I wrote it down.
The Chairman. 77,497 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you are right. Tliat is what I put down.
The Chairman. My statement was premised on that figure. I said
if that is correct, it would be roughly 18 percent.
Mr. HoFFA. I think you are right, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. HoFFA. Now, in regards to the question of 410 — that is tlie
local you are talking about ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. Feldman was in my office concerning the question of
jurisdiction.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have a charter at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. Pardon. May I explain to you ?
Mr. Kennedy. 1 want to make sure that I get all the facts so we
understand.
Mr. HoFFA. I want to give them to you.
Mr. Kennedy. But I want to be sure
Mr. HoFFA. You go ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Feldman come to see you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, at my invitation.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have a charter at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. A teamsters charter.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Was he attempting to get a hotel and restaurant
workers ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, he was not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he subsequentlj^ ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is the point I am trying to tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he discuss it w^ith you ?
Mr. HoFFA. At my request.
Mr. Kennedy. I am not asking that. Did he discuss it with you ?
Mr. HoFFA. At my request he did.
Mr. Ivennedy. Did you agree that you would talk to somebody
about trying to get liim a hotel and restaurant workers charter ?
Mr. HoFFA. I will explain to you what happened.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Can you answer the question and then make any
explanation ?
Mr. HoFFA. You cannot answer the question yes or no. There is
no yes-or-no answer to it. If you want the answer for your legis-
lative purpose, I will give it to you.
Mr. I^NNEDY. I want that.
Mr. HoFFA. All right.
The actual effect, to the best of my recollection, here is exactly what
happened: Feldman was in my office at my request to discuss the
question of jurisdiction between his local union and another local
union in Philadelphia because it had become a problem for the inter-
national union.
When we finished our discussion, I asked him what was he in-
terested in hotel and restaurant workers for and he gave me an
answer that he wasn't particularly interested in it, but some people
that he knew had formed an independent union.
89330— 57— pt. 13 10
5068 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I asked him why they were forming an independent union and he in-
formed me that the reason they were forming an independent union
was the fact that they could not get a charter. I told him I knew
nothing about the facts, but if that was true, then I would call Ed
Miller, inform him of the fact that Feldman was there, which I did,
and Miller said if that was the problem, the next time their organizer
was in the district — I think they call him the director of organiza-
tion— was in the district, he would discuss the question with those in-
dividuals who had the independent union.
That is my sole part of the question of 410, to the best of my
recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Feldman, as I understand it, spoke to you about
irettinc a charter from someone else, for the hotel and restaurant
workers?
Mr. HoFFA. After I inquired as to why he was interesting himself
in it.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he was interested in somebody ^else ?
Mr. PIoFFA. No, he did not.
Mr. Kennedy. He said somebody else was interested ?
Mr. HoFFA. He said that the people who had the independent
charter only had the independent charter because they had no other
way of establishing a union.
Mr. Ivennedy. In answer to your question of, "Why are you in-
terested ?" what did he say ?
Mr. HoFFA. He said he was interested because he knew the people
who were involved and it affected the teamsters whenever there were
picket lines established.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. And he told you that he was not going to have any
interest in this charter at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't ask him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that he was going to have an
interest in that charter ?
Mr. HoFFA. I assume he would not have an interest in the charter
as such, but he knew those folks who would run it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he tell you who was going to run it for him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't ask him.
(At this point. Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
Mr. KJENNEDY. According to the information and investigation
that we have made, Mr. Feldman and Mr. Berg — a Mr. Berg up there,
Abe Goldberg, I believe it is — established a union, got a restaurant
and hotel workers union, a restaurant workers union charter up there,
and it was through your intervention, and they put a Mr. Salvatore
Barrone in as president, originally, but they actually ran it.
Mr. Feldman's record consists, starting back in 1924, of shoplifting;
1925, disorderly conduct; 1926, unlawful possession and transporta-
tion of intoxicating liquor; 1927
Mr. Fitzgerald. If you will pardon me, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Wait until I finish.
Mr. Fitzgerald. If you read that, there is no need of my objecting.
The Chairman. The Chair will hear your objections.
Mr. Fitzgerald. My objection is to the pertinency of this par-
ticular question or statement, whatever it may be, I assume it is
supposed to be a question, in view of the fact it has no pertinency to
this particular inquiry.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5069
All that it accomplishes is apparently a smear upon some in-
dividual who not now is directly concerned, and indirectly upon Mr.
Hoffa. After it is all said and done, if there is a proper legislative
purpose behind it, if there is relevancy here — I have sat by. I cer-
tainly don't want to interrupt the committee's time.
The Chairman. The only purpose of this testimony, from a legisla-
tive standpoint, would be the aspect that we are inquiring into about
racketeering elements in labor unions, how they get in, how they are
appointed, what arrangements are made for them, and whether it is
done with knowledge of their background and their general criminal
records, if there are some. That would be the purpose of it.
I have no doubt but that the Congress may want to consider dealing
with the problem. I am not saying that they will deal with it, or how
Congress will deal with it. I do not know.
But, from a legislative standpoint, I think the committee would be
failing in its duty if it did not establish such facts that came to its
knowledge, for the record, so that the Congress might weigh it.
Mr. I^NNEDY. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that the situation in
Philadelphia was that there were two hotel and restaurant workers
unions at that time. This group was trying to get another local. The
international at that time would not give them a charter. They then
got in touch with Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Feldman had conversations with
Mr. Hoffa and requested his assistance ; that Mr. Hoffa discussed this
matter with, I believe, some high official in the restaurant and hotel
workers ; that an official was sent from the headquarters of the restau-
rant and hotel workers union and met in Philadelphia, and this
charter was granted; that the charter was granted; that the people
that were running this local were Mr. Feldman, who had the original
conversation with Mr. Hoffa. His record consists, as I was reading
here, and I continue to read: 1928, highway robbery; 1928, murder
and operating auto without owner or driver's license ; 1928, robbery by
holdup at point of gun ; 1929, larceny of touring cars ; 1929, robbery
by holdup at point of gun ; 1929, entering to steal, conspiracy, carrying
burglary tools. He was thrown out of Atlantic City in 1932 as being
imdesirable; 1934, a disorderly person; 1934, suspicious character
and parole violator; 1934, conspiracy to steal, larceny and unlawful
possession and use of narcotics drugs : 1935, burglary, 4 years in Sing
Sing Prison.
So he had rather an interesting record.
The Chairman. The point is, when you make a statement like that
about someone, the question is, Mr. Hoffa, did you have that informa-
tion ? Did you know him to be that kind of a character ?
Mr. Hoffa. I certainly did not. And there is nothing unusual, I
may say, about that fact, because I imagine you had to gather the in-
formation before you knew it.
The Chairman. I did not say you knew. But I said it is proper to
ask you that question.
Mr. Hoffa. I don't find any fault with you asking the question.
Senator. The counsel raised the question.
The Chairman. Will you permit me to try to conduct this properly
for your benefit and for the record ?
Mr. Hoffa. Excuse me.
The Chairman. I said it is proper. Your counsel raised an ob-
jection. Counsel will agree that the proper purpose of him stating
5070 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
that was to follow v,-itli the question of "Did you have that knowledge
and infoi-mationf"'
Mr. If OFFA. I understand that, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Muxdt. Mr. Chaiiman, I think the counsel will now agree
that the committee has not ver}* badly smeared an entirely imiocent
man, because if he has been in Sing Sing and these other places, the
public probably Jjeard about it, too.
(Tiie witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. If we find out if the knowledge of the witness, as
Senator McClellan, the chairman, explained, is the purpose of the
inquir}', I say it is i>ertinent. So I have no oljjection.
Mr. Kennedy, and I wouldn't presume to tell him how to conduct
his examination, if he had said, '""What knowledge did you have of the
man's record V and he said, "Well, I didn't have any knowledge," then
he could follow with those other questions and I would have kept
quiet.
Senator Mundt. Fii-st of all we have to establish the man's record,
so that Mr. Hofia can answer intelligently.
The CiiAmMAX. Mr. Counsel
Mr. FiTZGER.\LD. I appreciate wliat has been done, because it has
been cleared up anyway.
The Chair:max. Let us proceed.
Mr. Kexxedv. I would like to say that tliey did get the charter,
and began to organize, and tliere was a lot of violence attaclied to their
organizational work. There was a telephone conversation that took
place between two of the organizers in talking about the head of the
restaurant that they were trying to organize. One of tliem suggested
that they should sit down with the head of the restaurant and talk it
over, to wliicli Feldman replied "Listen, there is only one solution. It
is to break his neck for him."
To this the other man. Berg, replied that there would be a lot of
publicity like in Xew York.
So it is of some interest, and we have h)een looking into it in Phila-
delphia.
The CiiAiRMAX. The question would be, Mr. Hoffa, did you have
that information or did you have it before now? Did you realize at
the time that you were dealing with that sort of a character?
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly never knew of the extent of the record which
has been read by Mr. Kennedy. I knew he had had some difficulty,
sir
The CiiAiRMAX. Did you have any of that information ?
Mr. HoFFA. I knew he had had some difficulties, but I didn't inquire
into what they were.
The CjfAiRMAX'. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. If you didn't get it all, we can give you a copy.
Mr, If OFFA. I would appreciate your giving me a copy.
Senator McXamaka. Air. Chairman?
The Cijairman. Senator McXamara.
Senator McXamara. I will be glad to yield to Senator Curtis.
Senator Certts. That is all right. Go ahead.
Senatr)r Mc-Xamara. "We ai-e discussing Mr. Feldman in connection
with this point. Apparently the record extended from a period in the
IMPROPER ACrn'ITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 5071
late 19-20's to 1935. or the middle 1920's to 1935. Did he l>econie a mem-
ber of your organization after 1935 or prior to 1935, or do you have
that information ?
Mr. HoFFA. The organization that Feldman is connected Avith was,
again, an independent union. Senator.
^Senator McXamaPvA. Xot a member of the teamstei-s '.
^Ir. HoFFA. They then came into the teamsters.
What year I don't know, oti'hand. but I can certainly g-et tlie in-
formation. But I am convinced that it was after 1935.
Senator McXamar.\. This record, appai-ently, of him. tliat we have
here is one that he acquired before he became a member of the team-
stei"s local, to the best of your recollection ?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection. I believe that is right.
Senator McXamar.\. But, prior to that, he was operating imder this
State of Pennsylvania charter?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, an independent charter, to the best of
my recollection and knowledge.
Senator McXa:maua. I would think it would be a reflection in the
first instance of other t]\an the union movement wlieu he had a char-
ter operating by some other agency.
The Chair:max. Senator Curtis?
Senator Cuetis. Mr. Hotfa, you replied in substance that you were
not aware of the entire record of ^Ir. Feldman as recited by counsel,
Mr. Kennedy. Then you followed with a statement that you knew
that he had had some ditHculties.
Mr. IloFFA. I said I had heard so, Senator.
Senator Curtis. Yes. Well, now, what dilUcuhies did you learn of ?
Mr. IIoFFA. I understood he had had some dithculty with the law,
but I did not check into it to find out how serious it was, sir.
Senator Citjtis. Which diflicidty did you learn that he had?
Mr. IIoFFA. Offhand I don't know of'any specific one, but 1 under-
stood he had had some trouble.
Senator Cuktis. Did you know that he had served in Sing Sing?
Mr. IIoFiw. I don't believe 1 had that knowUnlge. sir.
Senator Cnrris. Then I would like to ask you: Wi\at. in yoiu- opin-
ion, from the standpoint of character and reputation, shoidd bar some-
one front receiving the union charter ?
I base that on The assumption that all the other facts are such that
somebody ought to get a charter.
Mv. IToFFA^. Well, that is a very ditru'ult question to answer, and I
don't really have the answer, because 1 know of no way that you can
segregate individuals who. unfovttmately, had a record, as against
those who did not have a record, when* after establishing a record
they became reputable citizens and good citizens of the conuinmity.
I personnally don't know how to determine that.
1 think we as labor olKcials have to consider their activities within
the labor movement.
Senat(U' Cri; ris. Vxd yon know Mr. Feldman to be a good citizen and
a good citizen in his comniunity before you issued the charter?
Mv. IToFFA. From my own knowledge, 1 couldn't say that exactly,
but 1 have heard no objecti(Uis. Let's put it that way.
Senator Curtis. You knew he had ditliculties, and you did not know
that he was a good citizen in his conununity at that time?
Mr. TloFFA. T didn't know he wasn't, either.
5072 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
(At this point, Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room.)
Senator Curtis. I wish you would give this committee the benefit
of your opinion as to what, from the standpoint of character and
reputation, should disqualify someone from receiving a charter for
a union.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I would be the last man to be able to say that
I could solve that problem, or be able to make a determination of that
question without taking each individual case based upon individual
sets of facts to make that determination. I would not want to hazard
a guess.
Senator Curtis. Apparently it has not concerned you very much.
Mr. HoFFA. It has concerned me to the extent that I would take an
individual case, if it came to my attention.
Senator Curtis. You labor leaders have been conspicuously silent
on recommendations for legislation that would help the working men
and women of the country have better unions, and have their funds
and interests better protected.
That is all.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, if the same legislation is passed to all citizens
of the United States as you are now trying to assume should be passed
for labor officials and labor members, they would be accepted, I
imagine, by the public as a whole as being fair. But if they are passed
specifically to apply only to labor leaders, then I question whether or
not the general public, as a whole, would agree that class legislation
should be passed.
Senator Curtis. I still say you are conspicuously silent, all of you.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. On that same point, Mr. Hoffa, I would like to ask
you the same question I asked Mr. Einar Mohn. Society has decided,
your country and mine, that there are certain types of crimes so bad
that when a man has served his sentence and has been restored to free-
dom, he still is denied the right to vote, because he is considered
unfit to vote. Would you agree that a man whom society has decided
is unfit to vote should also be considered unfit to receive a charter of
the union or to serve as a union official ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I am trying to get an answer on something that I believe
I have to know before I answer your question, if you would give me
a moment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I tried to inquire from the attorney as to by what pro-
cedure a man could reestablish his civil rights, and without checking
into it his recollection is that there is a certain method that you may
approach to reestablish your civil rights, and if there are such, then
the same rules should apply to rehabilitation of a citizen in his right
to be an officer of a union.
Senator Mundt. I am talking about the fellow who has committed
a crime so bad in the eyes of his fellow citizens — and he has been
restored to freedom — that he is denied the right to vote. Obviously,
to that extent, he has not established his civil rights, he has not estab-
lished the civil right of voting.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5073
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't quarrel too much with your philosophy.
Senator Mundt. It would seem to me that while you are working up
a new constitution, trying to improve things, you might well con-
sider including in that constitution a statement that where a man
has been declared unfit to vote by his own activities in his conflict
with the law, he should also be unfit to hold an office in the labor
unions. That would be some protection to your members who have
a right to look for the honest custodianship of their funds.
Mr. HoFFA. On page 5 — and we are going to supply you with this
same time before we leave the city — there is a provision in our pro-
posed recommendations dealing with the subject that you are talking
about, and it is listed as "Racketeers, crooks, Communists, and
Fascists," because we believe. Senator, that if it is unwise for the
individual who committed a crime in his youth or sometime during
his life to hold office, it also should be a crime for Fascists, Commu-
nists, "ex" or otherwise, to hold office on the same basis as a person
convicted of a crime.
Senator Mundt. I certainly would applaud that addendum. That
would be fine.
The Chairman. All right. We will take a recess imtil 2 o'clock
this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 45 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m., the same day.)
(Members present at the taking of the recess: Senators McClellan,
Ervin, McNamara, Mundt, and Curtis.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee at the convening of the session
were Senators McClellan, Ives, McNamara, Mundt, Goldwater, and
Curtis.)
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call a brief witness
on a question that came up this morning, Mr. Paul "The Waiter"
Ricca.
The Chairman. I happen to remember Mr. Hoila spoke to me just
now and he said that he had some infonnation that he had been re-
quested to supply. You may submit that now, Mr. Hoffa.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES K. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I find that there are 12 permitted companies
hauling Cadillacs out of the city of Detroit and I will give the names
to Mr. Kennedy. I find also, that out of the 2 particularly large
companies, there are 50 units hauling Cadillacs, 36 owned by the
company and 14 owned by individual driver-owners. That is Boutell
Truck Co.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you repeat what you said ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I will.
There are a total of 50 units pulling out of the Cadillac yard, 36
owned by the company, 14 owned by individual driver- owners.
Mr. Ejennedy. Now, driver-owners, that is not a company there.
Your situation is different from a driver- owner.
5074 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I will give that to yon, you are right. For that point
you are right.
Mr. Kennedy. Then on other companies, you said 36 are connected
with the company itself. Will you repeat them ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you got me wrong.
Mr. Kennedy. Start over again.
Mr. HoFFA. There are 12 com]:)anies who are permitted carriers
j)ulling out of Detroit, hauling Cadillac automobiles.
Mr. Kennedy. Exclusively ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, neither does Commercial Carriers.
Mr. Kennedy. But you haul Cadillacs exclusively, your company.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, just a moment. I am trying to ])oint out that
there are 12 permitted companies that haul Cadillac automobiles.
Also, those 12 companies haul ChiTsler products. Now, there are cer-
tain companies assigned to the Cadillac operation. So I say that Bou-
tell has assigned to pull out of the Cadillac yard, 50 units, and I
outlined how they are.
Mr. Kennedy. Give me what tlie 50 units are again.
Mr. PIoFFA. Thirty-six owned by the company.
]SIr. Kennedy. Thirty-six owned b}^ what company ?
Mr. HoFFA. By Boutell Co. and 14 owned by individual owners.
Mr. Kennedy. Of the 36, is it your testimony that all 36 of those
carried exclusively Cadillacs?
Mr. HoFFA. The information I liave here which was checked during
the noon hour, is that the 50 trucks I am talking about are assigned
to tlie Cadillac yard to haul exclusively Cadillacs.
Mr. Kennedy. Your testimony is that those 36 companies haul
exclusively Cadillacs, is that right?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, my testimony is the 36 units, individual tractor
units owned by the company, are hauling Cadillacs out of the Detroit
yard.
The Chairman. Let me get this straight. There are 36 units, and
what do you mean by "units'' ?
Mr. HoFFA. Tractor trailer units.
The Chairman. A truck ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, tractor trailer or units.
The Chairman. Who are those 36 owned by ?
]Mr. HoFFA. By Boutell.
The Chairman. That is another company ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is a permitted truck company.
The Chairman. A permitted truck company ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Then there are 14 where the individuals own their
own trucks and haul them ?
Mr. Hoffa, Yes, sir.
The Chair]man. Now, out of the 50, how many of those haul
exclusively Cadillac cars?
Mr. HoFFA. I am informed that those 50, Senator, do haul ex-
clusively Cadillacs.
The Chairman. All 50 of them exclusively haul Cadillacs?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, that was during the noon hour and I am quite
sure it is right, and I would say subject to further check, this is the
way it is.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5075
Now, on Commercial Carriers, there is a total of 142 units pullino-
out of the Cadillac yard, 116 owned by the company and 5 owned
by the T. & L. Fleet operation, 11 owned by Office Employee Fleet, and
10 owned by Hoblein Co.
Senator Mundt. What company owned the 116, the Cadillac Co
itself?
Mr. HoFFA. Commercial Carriers, the permitted carrier.
Mr. Kennedy. How many units do they have, Commercial Carrier ?
Mr. HoFFA. You mean total, probably two or three hundred I would
imagine, and may 300.
Mr. Kennedy. You mean a third of all of their trucks haul
Cadillacs?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that is right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat is that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that you are right.
Mr. Kennedy. There is no question about the trucks or units that
belong to the company itself hauling Cadillacs, because it is advan-
tageous financially to haul Cadillacs. It is a question of whether
Commercial Carriers gave your company an advantage by allowing
you to exclusively haul Cadillacs.
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, I don't want to take the time up of the
Chair because he said he had something else, but I want to say to you
that Cadillacs are hauled by trucks that are for Cadillac automobiles,
because of the size of the car and the type covers we put on them.
So they do assign them, even though they can haul other oars,
they assign them for the particular ieaso]i of Cadillacs hnving to have
extra care they have to have.
Now, Senator, I would also like, if I may, sir, to place in the record
the Interstate Commerce Commission notice of June 11, 1957, dealing
with the question of the IMcLean industry, where it indicates the last
report of the two companies being in separate units completely, which
would not involve our organization as far as the steamship line is
concerned.
The Chairman. That document that you liave referred to will not
be printed in the record, but it may be filed as an exhibit for refer-
ence. That is just incidental to some other testimony.
Mr. HoFFA. Thank you.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit 165.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 165" for
reference, and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. HoFFA. Now, may I correct the last thing that we were in dis-
agreement on this moniing.
One is the question of trusteeships and the number of members in
the Central States.
The Chairman. Do you have any additional information?
Mr. HoFFA. There are 33 trusteeships in the Central States, and
50,254 members, or 9 percent of the total, sir.
The Chairman. That is your latest figure ?
Mr. HoFFA. I just had it taken off the books at noon.
The Chairman. Is there anything further now ?
Mr. HoFFA. No sir.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed.
I did read a telegram that had come to me this morning.
5076 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I am inquiring to that, and I could not reach the offi-
cials at lunch and I expect to have it sometime this afternoon to
answer your question.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. There was also a question about the identity of Paul
"The Waiter" Ricca, and we have looked into the matter and we have
some information. I would like to call Mr. Salinger, if he would
just sit over here and give the information.
The Chairman. I do not believe you have been sworn.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Salinger. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PIERRE E. G. SALINGER
The Chairman. Be seated.
State your name and your place of residence and your present
employment.
Mr. Salinger. My name is Pierre Salinger, and I reside in Wash-
ington, D. C, and I am an employee of this committee.
The Chairman. In what capacity?
Mr. Salinger. I am an investigator.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. You have made an examination of the police record
of Mr. Paul "The Waiter" Ricca?
Mr. Salinger. I have.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have the summary of that before you?
Mr. Salinger. I have.
Mr. Kennedy. Does he have any other name other than Paul
Ricca?
Mr. Salinger. Yes, sir. Paul Ricca is Paul De Lucia.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you spell the last name ?
Mr. Salinger. D-e L-u-c-i-a.
Mr. Kennedy. How have you ascertained that information ?
Mr. Salinger. I ascertained that from a check of the record of
Paul "The Waiter" Ricca with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the record, or what did you find ? Did you
find there are deportation proceedings against Paul Ricca ?
Mr. Salinger. I did, sir. I talked this morning to the United
States attorney in Chicago, 111., Mr. John Tekan, who notified me that
earlier this year after a 5-week deportation trial, Mr. Paul Ricca or
Paul De Lucia was ordered deported from this country.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason?
Mr. Salinger, One of the reasons that came out during the trial
was the fact that he had participated in the murder of two men in
Italy before he came to the United States.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he had a record since he came here ?
Mr. Salinger. He has.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you give us a summary of that ?
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Ricca was arrested in 1943 on grounds of extor-
tion ; this charge was nolle prossed.
In 1944 he was charged with antiracketeering, and given a 10-year
sentence and sent to Atlanta Federal Penitentiary.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5077
Mr. IvENNEDY. You mean under the antiracketeering statement?
Mr. Salinger. Yes. He was sent to the United States Penitentiary
and then transferred to Leavenworth and finally parolled in 1947.
Since then he has been indicted on a charge of making false state-
ments to the Internal Revenue Department on his income tax returns
and that is still a pending matter.
Mr. Kennedy. That was Paul De Lucia who received the moneys,
some $150,000 for the purchase of his estate, from the teamsters union?
Mr. Salinger. It was.
Mr. Kennedy. It was deposited in his bank account ?
Mr. Salinger. It was.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. You may stand aside,
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Hoffa, this morning I gave you an oppor-
timity to state if you knew these parties.
Do you know whether he was connected under either name with these
checks that were placed as exhibits ?
Mr. Hoffa. Sir, to my recollection I have never met the gentleman
that has been mentioned and I am quite sure that the trust company
we did business with did not inform us of the previous owner, and
apparently misled the inquiry of our attorney when it appeared in
the papers to determine whether or not this individual had anything
to do with the property.
The Chairman. Obviously, he had something to do with the money.
Mr. Hoffa. I can understand that.
The Chairman. That is what we are trying to clear up. Can you
help us any on that?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir, I have nothing else on it.
The CceAiRMAN. Thank you very much.
All right, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. I just have a few questions on some testimony that
you have given already that I would like to have cleared up.
How well do you know Harold Marx, who received that loan from
the union?
Mr. Hoffa. I would say quite well.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you had any business dealings with him ?
Mr. Hoffa. Only in regard to the loan.
Mr. Kennedy. Other than that ?
Mr. Hoffa. I caimot recall of any business dealings I had with
him, except — just a moment.
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Hoffa. As pointed out by Mr. Fitzgerald, I have had business
with the union, because he is one of the accounts.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Mr. Harold Marx is one of the accountants for the
union ?
Mr. Hoffa. His concern is, and I don't know if Harold himself
personally does it, but his concern does.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Harold Marx, his concern does the accounting for
which union?
Mr. Hoffa. For the central conference.
5078 lAIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kenxedy. Who out of his office does that?
Mr. HoFFA. I said central conference, and I am wrong. It is Cen-
tral States Drivers Council, and I believe it is the pension and welfare
fund that his concern is the accountant for.
Mr. Kennedy. The pension and welfare fund ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that is correct. Just a moment. Wait a
minute.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. To correct the record, there is some technical title which
must be put on it, I suppose. It is the Central States southeast-south-
west health and welfare pension plan, which is tied in in conjunction
with the Central States Drivers Council. I think that is the proper
description of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Where are his headquarters ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe they are in New York.
Mr. Kennedy. He has representatives out in the Midwest, does he?
Mr. HoFFA. He has representatives come into the office I believe
quarterly, or annually, or both.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you in touch with him much yourself?
Mr. HoFFA. Occasionally ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you discuss any of your business interests with
him?
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine I do, during discussions.
Mr. Kennedy. But vou have never gone into anv business deal with
him?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, the answer is "No.'"
Mr. Kennedy. What was he going to use tliis money for ?
Mr. HoFFA. For investments, I assume.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know how he was going to use it ?
Mr. HoFFA. No ; I say I did not ask him, I don't want to guess what
it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you received any information as to how he
was going to use the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that he invested the money, and I am not sure,
Mr. Kenedy, and I don't want to make a positive statement without
talking to him and getting the facts.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did he receive from the union alto-
gether ? We had the figure j-esterday, I think.
Mr. HoFFA. It was $150,000, or $145,000.
The Chairman. I think it was $149,000.
Mr. Kennedy. That is where it was mixed up.
Mr. HoFFA. I think we finally found the one check in regard
Mr. Kennedy. You remember we had a $12,500 check, plus $50,000,
and so it was $62,500.
Mr. HoFFA. Then I said there was money from another place.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You Said yesterday you didn't know. Now you say
there was.
Mr. HoFFA. Finally yesterday we came to a conclusion, and prob-
ably we didn't, but we discussed several of those problems ; and if we
didn't, I won't be able to answer.
Mr. Kennedy. Did some money come from 299 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I told you it did.
Mr. Kennedy. Another $62,500?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5079
Mr. HoFFA. I think it is, as I said yesterday, but I don't want to be
held to the figure ; but, as I told you, they are paid back.
Mr. Kennedy. When you loaned the money from 299, $62,500 or
thereabouts from local 299, what did Mr. Marx tell you he was goino-
to do with the money ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Marx, I believe, to the best of mv recollection, was
going to invest the money.
Mr. Kennedy. Invest in what?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe in stocks and bonds.
Mr. Ivennedy. Well, I would think, if you were loaning that much
of union money out to an individual, you would find out where the
money was going.
Mr. HoFFA. If you had asked me to bring the record, I could give you
positive information, but recalling it from memory isn't so easy. I
can remember many individuals who testified who couldn't remember
what happened the previous week.
Mr. Kennedy. But you can't remember what Mr. Marx told you
as to what he was going to do with some $125,000?
JNIr. HoFFA. I gave you my best recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Just investments in some bonds.
Mr. HoFFA. I gave you my best recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Am I correct?
Mr. HoFFA. I say I gave you my best recollection that he was going
to invest in bonds, if I remember correctly.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember what kind of bonds he was going
to invest in ?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't give you an exact answer, because I haven't
that information, but I will supply it if it becomes necessary.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he going to purchase any bonds for you ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He was not ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Senator Ives. I would like to ask Mr. Hoffa, in that comiection, what
securitv you have for that money?
Mr. HoFFA. $350,000 or $400,000 worth of real estate.
Senator Ives. Real estate?
Mr. HoFFA. His interest in real estate.
Senator Ives. Was that what he was putting the money into?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. This was real estate that he placed for col-
lateral for the loan, sir.
Senator Ixy.s. Let me ask you this : This money came from the
union ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Senator Im^s. Local 299 ?
Mr. HoFFA. And 337.
Senator Ltks. And it was authorized by your membership ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have authority to make loans from my membership
and I cannot speak for the other one.
Senator Ives. I don't question that, but the thing I do raise is
this : This money is all tax exempt, isn't it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. You are talking about the union ?
Senator Ives. Yes, and it pays no taxes on this money of any kind,
and you are turning it around here and loaning it out for some private
5080 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
undertaking. At least I assume it is a private undertaking. Did you
get any interest on it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. You got that much for income, then ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Do you think that is a good way to do business, to
get tax-exempt money of that kind and tm^n it around and loan it
out to a private undertaking ?
Mr. lioFFA. I would say that the labor organizations are not the
only type of organizations that do that.
Senator Ives. I am not talking to you about that. Two wrongs
don't make a right, and I am asking you about this one thing.
Mr. HoFFA. As long as it is permissible and legal, I see nothing
wrong with it.
Senator Ives. That isn't the question I asked you. I asked you
whether you thought there was anything wrong and you apparently
don't.
Mr. HoFFA. I do not.
Senator Ives. It occurs to me something ought to be done to tighten
up that matter.
Mr. Kennedy. I just want to ask you about one other individual
whose name has come up, and that was Mr. Oren DeMass. You
remember we discussed him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I remember,
Mr. Kennedy. And he had loaned you, I believe, some money, you
and Bert Brennan.
Mr. HoFFA. Several times, and he loaned me $25,000 for Terminal
Realty, and he put the money up and held the stock for security, if
you will remember.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he loan you some money at another time ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir; several times.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it strikes me in 1950, 1951, and 1952, and — just
a moment,
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Prior to 1950, and I can't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know how much he loaned you at a time?
Mr. HoFFA. I do not know offhand. It wasn't a considerable
amount.
Mr. I^nnt:dy. Did Mr. DeMass have any difficulties with the
authorities, the law at one time, in 1946 ?
Mr. HoFFA. If he did I never heard of it.
Mr. Kennedy. You never heard of it ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I want to correct the record. The attorney tells me
there was some difficulty but it was dismissed and that is why I
didn't remember it,
Mr. Kennedy. This was the man who was the tailor and the poet
and the liquor man ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you involved in that difficulty ?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand I was.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5081
Mr. Kennedy. Was that in connection with the testimony of a
man by the name of Prujanski who testified before the grand jury?
Mr. HoFFA. Now that my attorney has refreshed my memory, I be-
lieve it was.
Mr. Kennedy. You and Mr. DeMass extorted $3,000 from him?
Mr. HoFFA. I was also dismissed from having done anything wrong.
Mr. IvjENNEDY. Was that in connection with
Mr. HoFFA. It didn't go to trial.
Mr. Kennedy. No ; but was that in connection with extorting $3,000
from Mr. Prujanski?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. KJENNEDY. That was the charge ; wasn't it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I am trying to find out.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. The charge was either conspiracy to extort or extort,
and when the hearing took place, DeMass and Hoffa were excused
and there was no cause for Hoffa and DeMass. It was dismissed by
a preliminary examiner.
Mr. Kennedy. But Prujanski after he testified before the original
grand jury, left town, did he not? Do you remember that?
Mr. Hoffa. He left town to get some work.
Mr. Ivennedy. He left town, and then they caught up with him
again and brought him back, and then he refused to testify.
Mr. Fitzgerald. We don't want to withhold anything and I haven't
objected, but this thing happened back years ago. ana it didn't have
any connection with labor matters, and it couldn't have, as I see it,
any pertinency or relevancy here.
The Chairman. Let me see. Is Mr. DeMass one of the borrowei's
or loaners ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. No.
Mr. Kennedy, He had a business relationship with Mr. Hoffa and
he did have something to do with a picket.
Mr. Hoffa. You are right. Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Prujanski left town.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I guess you are right. Maybe I was being a little
legalistic, and I was thinking of the statute of limitations.
The Chairman. The statute of limitations may have run.
Mr. Fitzgerald. It is perfectly all right, Your Honor.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
You may proceed.
Mr. Ivennedy. Mr. Prujanski left town after he testified before
the grand jury.
Mr. Hoffa. I understood he sought employment in California.
Mr. Kennedy. And when they brought him back to testify again,
he refused to testify, isn't that correct, against you and Mr. DeMass ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, if my memory serves me right, to the best of my
recollection, I read in the newspaper something to that effect.
Mr. Ivennedy. And he was sentenced for refusing to answer ques-
tions ? He was sentenced to jail for 90 days ?
Mr. Hoffa. I think the best answer is the court record, and I can't
recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Gan you remember anything about it ?
Mr. Hoffa. Roughly.
Mr. Ivennedy. Is that roughly right ?
5082 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA, Well, I read the newspapers and I believe lie did serve
some time.
]\Ir. Kennedy. For refusing to testify against you and Mr. DeMass ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And the case was dismissed after that ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot give you that information. You will have to
get it from the court record.
Mr. Kennedy. But the case was dismissed. I think we have
established that.
Mr. HoFFA. The case was dismissed.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have anything to do with Mr. Prujanski
going to California ?
Mr. HoFFA. Did I have anything to do with it ?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you directly or indirectly have anything to do
with Mr. Prujanski going to California?
Mr. IIoFFA. I never told Prujanski to do anything.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you directly or indirectly have anything to do
with Mr. Prujanski going to California?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, I did not discuss the
matter with Prujanski.
Mr. Kennedy. That is not answering it either. Did you directly or
indirectly have anything to do with Mr. Prujanski going to California ?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, I do not recall having
anything to do directly or indirectly with Prujanski going to
California.
Mr. Kennedy. To the best of your recollection?
jMr. HoFFA. At this moment.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't say flatly that you did not ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well I gave you my answer.
Mr. Kennedy. But you can't say flatly.
Mr. HoFFA. I gave you my answer.
Mr. Kennedy. You cannot answer flatly that you did not tell
Prujanski directly or indirectly to go to California?
Mr. HoFFA. This happened years ago, and I am trying to give you
my best recollection, and I gave my answer.
Mr. Kennedy. I would think it would be something, Mr. Hoffa,
that you would remember. Here you were under indictment or there
w^ere charges against you for extorting $3,000 m connection with Mr.
Prujanski. Pie testified before the grand jury and then suddenly
left for California and they had difficulty getting him back. Now I
would think that this would be a fairly important event in your life
that you would remember, but you say you can't remember it.
Mr. HoFFA. I gave you my best recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. And you would rather not answer or you can't give
anything more on it ; is that right ?
Mr. Hoffa. I gave you my best recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to ask you about this check.
Are you familiar with the Wholesalers, Producers, and Buyers
Association ?
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhat.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat is that association ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it is to the best of my recollection, an associa-
tion of small so-called driver-owners w^ho deliver produce to inde-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5083
pendent stores. They buy their own merchandise wholesale, and take
it on the truck and go out into the small stores and sell it, and they
have to crate it and so on.
Mr. Kennedy. Do they have any negotiation with the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. They are members of the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they have some difficulty in 1956 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, they did.
Mr. Kennedy. What kind of difficulty ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Some type of antitrust, I believe, Mr. Kennedy. It
arose somewhere out of OPA, I think.
Mr. Kennedy. They had some legal fees in connection with that?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the teamsters pay any of those legal fees?
Mr. HoFFA. I personally attended a meeting of the small merchants
that was discussed here the other day by the Senators. These fel-
lows own and operate their own business with 102 people helping them
and they are members of our union. When they became involved in
difficulty, we attempted to help those small fellows stay in business.
That was by paying part of the legal fees out of dues, that they had
paid to our organization previously.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you pay ? How much did the team-
sters pay ?
JVIr. HoFFA. I think you have two checks there and I can't recall
the amounts.
The Cpiairman. The Chair hands you a photostatic copy of a bill
rendered to local 337, I believe, on April 16, 1956, re : "United States
Versus Wholesale Buyers Association; portion of the total bill for
services rendered in tlie handling of above case, $3,000."
Will you examine that photostatic copy and see if you can identify
it and give us an explanation of it?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. HoFFA. This is an invoice that Mr. Bellino and I discussed,
and I believe Mr. Salinger, and I gave them the details of this par-
ticular item.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit 166.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 166" for ref-
erence, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5282.)
Mr. Kennedy. That was evidently a $3,000 attorney's fee that was
paid bv the teamsters for this association.
Mr. HoFFA. I think it was a portion of the fee.
Mr. Kennedy. That was an antitrust action?
Mr. HoFFA. Some type.
Mr. Kennedy. Against tliis association?
Mr. HoFFA. Some type of antitrust, and I am not too familiar with
the legal description of it.
Mr. Kennedy. And the teamsters union or you felt this was a legiti-
mate cliarge of union members' dues to pay the attorney's fees for this
association?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, those individuals who belong to that
association belong to our union and carry a teamsters union book and
pay dues, and it could be all or part of the money that was paid was
out of their dues that they paid into our organization.
89330— 57— pt. 13 11
5084 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(The witness conferred Avitli his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I may say that I believe the record will show that they
were found innocent of any such charge.
Mr. Kennedy. This was a charge against the association, was it
not?
Mr. HoFFA. AVhich included the individual members, I believe, at
the same time.
Mr. Kennedy. But it wasn't a charge against the teamsters union.
]Mr. HoFFA. But they are members of the teamsters union.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you pay the attorney's fees for anybody that is
a member of the teamsters union, no matter what they are charged
with ?
Mr. IToFFA. If we deemed it was something, and I say "we," the
membership, and the officers, deemed it was some issue which could
establish a precedent for the future, then we would give consideration
to tlie individual incident.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is "we" that made this decision?
Mr. HoFFA. As I say, the members and the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did you put this up to a vote and they decided
they wanted it ?
Mr. HoFFA. A vote of those individuals who were at the meeting,
the association members who belonged, and I personally went to the
m.eeting and discussed the matter with tliem.
Mr. Kennedy. That is just the association members Did it go to
the general membership and did the}^ decide that they wanted to pay
this fee ?
Mr. HoFFA, I believe that the local bylaws of 337 and I don't have
them with me, but I believe it gives the president and the officers the
authority.
jMr. Kennedy. When you say "we" you mean you and the officers
and the association decided this S3,000 should be paid.
Mr. HoFFA. If we had the authority.
Mr. Kennedy. It was not the membership.
Mr. HoFFA. If we had the authority under the bylaws to do so, then
any construction placed on the action of the officers must be a con-
struction placed on the officers in behalf of the members because they
approved the bylaws.
Mr. Kennedy. But you say you have the blanket authority to do
this, and, therefore, you did it and therefore, it is all right: is that
right !'
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't say any such thing.
Mv. Kennedy. Well, did the membership ever approve this?
]Mr. HoFFA. The membership approved the annual report that was
submitted to 990, which they have access to, if they desire to have it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that after the money was spent, Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. HoFFA. Tlie report is made up at the end of the year and it
would be.
Mr. Kennedy. Wasn't it after the money was spent that they were
told about it?
Mr. Hoffa. Tell me the date of the check and I will give you an
answer.
The Chairman. The bill was rendered April 16, 1956.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5085
Mr. HoFFA. I could not answer without knowing when the check
was issued, Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you answer this : Was the membership informed
of this $8,1)00 which was going to be spent for this purpose?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't say whether they were informed specifically,
but the expenditures of the union would be noted in the form that
they tiled under the requirement of Taft-Hartley.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be at the end of the year?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. But this was not cleared prior to that time, or this
was not cleared with the membership prior to the time that the ex-
penditure Mas made ^
Mr. HoFFA. I could not give you that specific answer.
Mr. Kennedy. You could not what ?
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot give you a specific answer yes or no to that
question. I can only say to you that the membership has authorized
the bylaws, which the union operates under and that they gave the
authority to the officers and it is the same as though the membership
voted on the bill.
Mr. Kennedy. Because the officers have this blanket authority to
do this, and, therefore, you say the membership approved in that
manner ?
Mr. HoFFA. If they approved the bylaws.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the same situation existing for the $5,000
payment that was made for Mr. Crumbach, in Philadelphia? Was
that ever put to the membership prior to the time the payment was
made (
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. That was the Michigan conference, isn't that right?
There was probably taken to the executive board since the members
do not participate in the Michigan conference, only through their
officei's.
Mr. Kennedy. So the officers are the ones who made that decision I
Ml". HoFFA. I would say that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. If you are running for reelection yourself, Mr.
Holfa, under your theory, union funds could be used to promote your
election, or reelection, is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. Unless the members voted to the contrary at the time
of nominations.
Mr. Kennedy. What I mean is that the officers of the Michigan
conference of teamsters, if they decided that would be a worthy proj-
ect, to the reelection of Mi-. James Hofla, then union funds could be
used to reelect you, isn't that coi'rect ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would assume you are correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And in the Michigan conference of teamsters, funds
can be used to elect your opponent ?
Mr. HoFFA. There has never been any competition so the question
has never arose.
Mr. Kennedy. There has never been anyone running against you I
Mr. HoFFA. Nobody.
Senator Mundt. Is there any relationship between those two facts,
Mr. Hoff a ?
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon ?
5086 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. Is there any relationship between those two facts?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't get your point, Senator,
Senator Mundt. Is there any relationship between the fact that you
can use the union funds for your reelection and the fact that nobody
ever ran against you ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would say, Senator, there w^as no relationship, since
the officers who elect the officials of the Michigan conference never
proposed a candidate in opposition to myself, and they must have
been content.
The CHAiRMAisr. May I present to the witness a check dated De-
cember 30, 1952, in the amount of $500, payable to Wholesale Pro-
ducers Business Association, issued by the Food and Beverage Drivers
Union Local, No. 337. Will you please identify that?
That check may be made exhibit 167.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit Xo. 167"' for refer-
ence, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5283.)
The Chairman. Are there any other questions about the check?
Mr. Kennedy. No, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I hand you another check, which I interpret as
dated June 8, 1957, payable to John L. Cowling, in the amount of
$260. That is issued by the Michigan conference of teamsters.
I will ask you to examine this check and see if you identify it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, I do, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit 168.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 168" for refer-
ence, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5284.)
The Chairman. Would you tell us what that check is for ?
Mr. HoFFA. Public relations for the National Tavern Owners
Association, National Negro Tavern Owners Association.
Mr. Kennedy. That is $260 of union funds that went to the National
Tavern Owners Association?
Mr. HoFFA. Negro Tavern Owners Association. I explained that
to Mr. Bellino and Mr. Salinger, and they have the information.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Mr. Jolm Cowling ?
Mr. HoFFA. Cowling is a person who works for someone in the
county treasurer's department, and an individual who is connected
with various civic and political organizations.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you familiar with the ad that he placed in the
Afro-American here ?
Mr. HoFFA. I saw the ad.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to his placing that ad, had you talked to him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I saw him in court, and did not discuss the question
with him.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to his coming here to Washington, had you
discussed the matter with him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Had I discussed what with him ?
Mr. Kennedy. Had you talked to him prior to his coming here to
Washington ?
Mr, HoFFA. I have talked to him many times.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you talked to him prior to the time he came
here to Washington?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe I talked to him. I can't recollect any
conversation.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5087
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to him from your home ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think that I did.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not ?
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot recollect it if I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know he was coming here to Washington ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know if I did or not, and I can't recollect.
Mr. Kennedy. You cannot recollect that either?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I can't.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, here is a letter, apparently acknowledg-
ing receipt of the check and will you see if you identify it? I do not
believe your name is on it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Bellino showed me this letter the other day.
The Chairman. You do not identify the letter?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't know, I think, just a minute here. Yes. I saw
it prior to Mr. Bellino showing it to me in the teamsters headquarters
and I saw it in Detroit on Saturday jDrior to coming here, so that I
would be able to speak intelligently on it to Mr. Bellino for his infor-
mation when I got here.
The Chairman. Then it is out of the teamsters files, as I understand
it?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct.
The Chairman. Then it may be made exhibit 169.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 169" for refer-
ence, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5285.)
Mr. Kennedy. Just on Mr. Cowling, connected with that letter, do
you know of any teamster money being given to Mr. Cowling, any
other money, other than this check ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What else?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, now, offhand I can't tell you, but we have given
political donations to organizations and to Mr. Cowling for a number
of years.
Mr. Kennedy. This year do you know of any other money being
given to Mr. Cowling?
Mr. HoFF. I can get you the information, but I don't want to
speculate at this moment.
Mr. Kennedy. You think it is possible there might have been more
this year?
Mr. Hoffa. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you get that information for us?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And get the total amount given to him ?
Mr. Hoffa. To the best of my ability ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to call Mr. Bellino
to put some figures in, that I do not think Mr. Hoffa would have, and
then we will go back to this subject.
The Chairman. Mr. Bellino, come around, please.
TESTIMONY OF CARMINE S. BELLINO
■ The Chairman. Mr. Bellino, you have been previously sworn in
this series of hearings ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir; I have.
5088 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Bellino, you made an investigation and a study
of some of the bills charged fit a hotel for a group of individuals
that were here in Washington, over the period of the past couple
of months ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. In what hotel have you made a study ?
Mr. Belling. These were bills wliich were charged or submitted
and obtained from the Woodner Kotel, in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Kennedy. And they are bills that were charged to the team-
sters union?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And during what period of time ?
Mi: Belling. During the i)eriod fi'om June IT to July 19, which
Mas the period of time of the trial of Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell the committee whose hotel bills
Avere charged to the teamsters union and the amounts?
Mr. HoFFA. What is the date again, sir?
Mr. Belling. June IT to July lit
1 will give them to you alphabeticall3^
The first one was Paul C. Allen, of Riggers local 8T5, with a
total of $111.96 charged to the teamsters.
William Bufalino, the bill that we had available was from about
June 16, with one bill we did not have the date on, for a total of
$914.89. William Bufalino is head of local 985 of the jukebox local.
Bert Brennan, head of local ?>3T, a total of $628.T().
l^obert Barney Baker, up to July 19 only, $1,619.-12. He is, ac-
cording to the information furnished, a Xew York hoodlum, a stink
bomb thrower, a union goon, from St. Louis, Xew York, and an
organizer in Washington, D. C.
Al De Lamielleure, $42. T5, a private detective who was formerly
with the Detroit Police Department labor squad.
George Fitzgerald, attorney, a total of $408.09.
William Fitzgerald, the father of George Fitzgerald, I under-
stand, $421.T3.
F. E. Fitzsimmons, secretary-treasurer, Michigan Conference of
Teamsters, and business agent of local 2T9, a total of $160.24.
H. I. Fischbach, an alleged coconspirator in the trial, $2T.65.
Harold Gibbons, of the Central Conference of Teamsters, a total
of $453.98.
Byrum Hurst, a law associate of Mr. Sheldon from Little Rock,
Ark., a brother of the judge presiding at the trial, a total of $T52.39.
The Chairman. Let me ask you if that isn't from Hot Springs,
Ark.
Mr. Belling. The information given to me says Little Rock, but
it must be Hot Springs.
The Chairman. "VYlio are you referring to in Little Rock?
Mr. Bellino. The law firm of Mr. Sheldon,
The Chairman. I am not positive at the moment, but I think the
law firm is in Hot Springs, but I may be mistaken.
Go ahead.
Mr. Belling. Robert Holmes, secretary-treasurer of local 33T,
$255.69.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5089
M. Jefferson, colored attorney from the west coast, $14.28.
Richard Kavner, midwest hoodkun known for rough stuff, bomb-
ing, and overturnings in the Wichita taxi strike, total of $469.89.
Stewart King, teamster union employee, $255.19,
Mr. Kehoe, former investigator for the district attorney's office in
Detroit, $57.90.
Joe Louis, the boxer, $21.66.
Donald Peters, $65.74. He is a teamster official.
Joseph Prebenda, head of the newspaper and periodical drivers
local in Detroit, $112.64.
S. Bobbins, $422.31.
Steven Schultz, business agent for local 283, $207.20.
J. R. Hoffa, $1,337.62.
Al Squires, business agent of local 299, $45.15.
And Pete Saffo, business agent connected with the central con-
ference of teamsters, $43.66.
Now, we have found that there were some personal checks used
in the payment of some of the bills. There was $273.73 from Mr.
Hurst, and $167.70 from Mr. George S. Fitzgerald.
There is still a balance due of approximately $2,200. The re-
mainder of around $5,159 has been paid by teamsters checks.
The Chatrmax. What is the total?
Mr. Belling. The total charges which were made were $9,366.70.
The Chairman. That is $9,366.70. How much Avas paid by per-
sonal checks?
Mr. Belling. $441.43.
(At this point Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. That leaves a balance of what?
Mr. Belling. Approximately $3,700 altogether, between team-
sters in Detroit and the central conference of teamsters in St. Louis,
The Chairman. According to my calculation, it leaves a balance
of $8,925.27.
Mr. Belling. There was a teamster check for $5,100.
The Chairman. But I was talking about that part, that has been
paid by personal checks, leaving a balance that has either paid or
charged to the union, if my calculations are correct.
Mr. Belling. $8,925,27,
The Chairman, Let me ask you another question there. Is that
just the hotel bills?
Mr. Belling, Yes.
The Chairman. Does that include transportation?
Mr. Beli^ing. No, sir.
The Chairman. Or any other business that may have been ren-
dered for expenses ?
Mr. Belling. No, sir,
Tlie Chairman. You have no other bills, other than just the
hotel ?
ilr. Belling, These are just the hotel bills; yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Curtis. May I ask something right there? What were
the dates from when to when ?
Mr. Belling. From the time that the trial was scheduled, about
June 17 to July 19, when the trial was over.
5090 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ctjrtis. Will you repeat again the identifying description
3^ou gave of Mr. Kavner ?
Mr. Belling. From the information furnished to me, he was de-
scribed as a Midwest hoodlum known for rough stuff, bombings and
overturnings in Wichita, Kans., taxi strike.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Bellino, how much of this total bill was charged
to the teamsters ?
Mr. Belling. Approximately $8,900, although the total amount was
charged, but personal checks that we know about paid for some of it.
Mr. Kennedy. So there is $8,900 that is charged to the teamsters ;
and how much of that has been paid by the teamsters ?
Mr. Belling. We have $5,159.63.
Senator Curtis. Who paid it for the teamsters ?
Mr. Belling. Some of it came from Detroit, and some from the
various locals, and others.
Senator Curtis. Different individuals made settlement with the
cashier ?
Mr. Belling. We haven't seen all of the checks as yet, but we know
on one local 337, it was paid by the local.
Senator Curtis. Who authorized the charging of the unpaid balance
that is charged to the teamsters ?
Mr. Belling. I do not know, sir.
Senator Curtis. But the hotel advised you that that was the
situation.
Mr. Belling. The hotel has a charge record on which they list to
whom it should be charged, and they have the teamsters of Detroit
and teamsters of St. Louis, or teamsters of Chicago.
Senator Curtis. Did you learn from the hotel or otherwise who made
the overall arrangement and advised the hotel that these bills w^ould
be paid by the teamsters ?
Mr. Belling. I do not know who made the overall arrangements.
I know that the case of Joe Louis' arrangements were made by Barney
Baker, of the St. Louis teamsters.
Senator Curtis. Advising the hotel that he would arrive ?
Mr. Belling. Made reservation for him on the 15th of June. That
he would arrive.
Senator Curtis. Whose money did they pay that with ?
Mr. Belling. I am sorry, that was July 15.
Senator Curtis. Wliose money did they pay that with? I mean,
what is the source of all of this money ?
Mr. Belling. Most of it was teamsters funds, approximately $5,000.
This particular one was paid by teamsters, but I understand that Mr.
Louis was supposed to have given a $20 bill to one of the men at
the airport in payment for it, $23.16 bill, and he gave a $20 bill to him,
T understand.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Bellino, you have had wide experience and
training as an auditor, and you have worked on this for weeks and
months, but what I want to know is based upon all of the studies
that you have given this, was this money that was used at this hotel
coming from dues money of members of the teamsters union, or did
it come from some private source.
Mr. Belling. Insofar as we know, at this point, we have not gone
into every local to be able to say that we have examined each check
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5091
that came from this local so that we know it came from the teamster
funds, and therefore I cannot answer that question definitely.
Seantor Curtis. As a general rule, you know all fimds of locals
and conferences and other people, that they have, the starting point
of those funds are the members of the union ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I think you should have a breakdown of it there,
if you have, of the money that has been paid, by what union or what
unit of the teamsters the money was paid.
I think it would make the record complete. Show that, if you have
it.
Mr. Belling. I do not have it, but we can get it for you.
The Chairman. I think you should get it insofar as you can.
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions from Mr. Bellino ?
Do you have the capitulation of what you have read from ?
Well, all right. You may stand aside.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
Senator Ggldwater. Mr. Hoffa, yesterday you and I were dis-
cussing the dangers of the abuse of power by union officials, that the
power is vested in them that they could misuse, if they wanted to. I
want to get pretty close to your home and discuss what I think might
be an abuse of that power. If I have heard that it is and I am wrong,
J would like you to put me wrong. I read in the morning paper that
a judge in Detroit ruled that there is nothing he could do in an injunc-
tive way about the current strike that exists against the three big
Detroit papers. That further carries out what Senator Ives and I
have founci out, and Senator McNamara, on the Labor Committee,
that there is a void there.
I understand that your union is supporting the strike of the Interna-
tional Mailers Union by refusing to cross the picket lines to deliver
papers, is that correct ?
Mr. Hgffa. May I answer it the way you have asked it, sir? You
have asked it in series. May I answer it the way you asked it?
Senator Ggldwater. The first was not a question. It was more or
less of a statement.
Mr. Hgffa. All right.
Senator Ggldwater. The thing I am interested in is if your union
is supporting this strike in Detroit by refusing to cross the picket
lines.
Mr. Hgffa. Our drivers themselves have decided for themselves
that they are not desirous of working while there is a picket line at
the place of business of one newspaper in Detroit. The other 2
newspapers voluntarily closed down in conjunction, and with an un-
derstanding of the other 2 newspapers, where we have been trying
almost around the clock to get the dispute settled, and have pleaded
with the 2 newspapers that are not involved in the dispute to go
back to work and publish a newspaper and they should publish it,
and allow our members and the trade members to work.
5092 IMPROPER ACTIVi^-xiCS IN THE LABOR FIELD
But they claim that they have an agreement between the 3 news-
papers which prohibits the 2 newspapers that are not affected by a
strike from operating while the third newspaper has a problem.
Therefore, it is not onr situation that is creating the stril^e of the
newspapers, but the fact that they have an alliance amongst them-
selves that when one has trouble they all have trouble. They have
now locked out all the trades, including the drivers.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Joe Prebenda's name came into this last
discussion. Is he one of your officials ?
]\Ir. HoFFA. Joe Prebenda is an official of the newspaper drivers
unions, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Is that one of the teamsters unions ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Senator Goldwater. Is he speaking for the teamsters in Detroit
in this situation ?
Mr. HoFFA. In the newspapers, I believe he is the president of the
organization and is speaking for that organization ; yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Let me ask you if you know : Does the Inter-
national Mailers Union have a contract with the Detroit News?
Mr. IIoFFA. I understand they do, sir.
Senator Goldwater. They put a picket line up there last Saturday ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it isn't quite that simple. Senator.
Senator Goldwater. The important thing in this question is do
they have a contract?
Mr. HoFFA. They do, sir.
Senator Goldwater. They have a contract with the Detroit News,
the Free Press, and the Times?
Mr. HoFFA. It is my understanding the ITU has the contract.
Senator Goldwater. The ITU? I am talking about the IMU.
Mr. Hoffa. Is that the independent?
Senator Goldwater. International ISIailers Union.
Mr. HoFFA. I do not believe they have a contract. Senator.
Senator Goldwater. They do not have a contract with any of the
papers ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe so.
Senator Goldw^ater. The ITU, the International T^'pographical
Union, does have a contract ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. So, in effect, you are supporting a strike that
has no reason to exist ; am I correct in that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, with all the problems I have here, I have tried
with numerous phone calls to Detroit to adjust the situation in De-
troit. At lunchtime I talked to one of the editors, assistant editor,
I believe, of one of the largest papers in Detroit in an endeavor to
work out a formula to get all the people back to work. They were
meeting at 2 o'clock, when I came here, for the purpose of trying to
put that formula into operation to settle the dispute.
Senator Goldwater. This IINIU actually has no contract. They
have no reason to strike. You, therefore, have no legal reason or,
in fact, no moral reason, I should say, to support them, have you?
It would be different if it were the ITU striking because they have
a contract.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, the principle of a picket line, irrespective of
whose picket line it is, must be normally taken into consideration by
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5093
individual members to decide whether or not they should go through
such a picket line.
Senator (toldwater. Do you mean to say that if a union wanted
to picket X business, and did not have a contract with it, and never
approaclied them for a contract, that they could establish a picket
line, and your members would not go through that picket line'^
]VIr. HoFFA. Of course, Senator, it isn't that simple. I would have
to give you the reason why that picket line is there. They fired 86
people, who worked for the particular newspaper. I suggested, as
a way of a solution, and I think it is a proper way, that everybody
go back to work, the picket line be removed, and that they submit
the entire matter to an impartial arbitrator, and everybody work in
the meantime, and also that the ITU, who has the contract, be the
one who represents the workers for this arbitration in an attempt to
settle it, and not the independent union.
The newspapers have rejected, I understand, such a proposal, so
I have no answer to the papers or to this senatorial committee as to
how to adjust the matter when there is an agreement between non-
interested parties and interested parties to lock out the newspaper
industry in Detroit.
(At this point, Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Goldw^ater. Mr. Hoffa, getting back to Joe Prebenda, he
has a son Donald Prebenda ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, he does.
Senator Goldwater. Do you know whether or not he is a lawyer
forthelMU?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand he is.
Senat or Goldwater. He is a lawyer?
Mr. Hoffa. I understand he is.
Senator Goldw^4ter. For the union that is causing the picket line?
Mr. HoFFA. I understand he is, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Well, now, Mr, Hoffa, I may be wrong in this,
but I think that points up one of the things you and I were discussing
yesterday, and that is the dangers of restraint of trade. You and
I talked about that diu'ing the recess.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Senator Goldwater. The dangers that are involved in one man or
a group of men at the top of the union to stop not only business but,
in this case, effectively stop the news of one of the biggest cities in
the world.
Getting to the thing we were talking about yesterday, we both
recognized that danger. I have always heard you described as a
man who is loyal in keeping his word and in keeping his contracts,
that the teamsters have always lived up to their contracts.
Do you think that your union or you, or the other officials, are
actually living up to your word when you refuse to cross the picket
lines of a union that is not in anyway recognized by either the company
or the workers ? Are you performing your honest duty ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, there is a provision in the contract that per-
mits the drivers to use their own discretion in regards to whether or
not they go through a picket line. So it is not a violation of the con-
tract, sir, for what they are doing.
5094 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Goldwater. Well, if you wanted to carry that far enough,
could you not pretty well close down any business you wanted to by
using these same tactics ?
Mr. HoFFA, If there was a strike and our drivers recognized the
picket line of that strike, I find nothing wrong with the situation.
However, you referred to the fact that they could not get an in-
junction, which they tried to get. I believe that the judge. Judge
Gilmore, made the statement that it was out of his jurisdiction and
it was a matter for the National Labor Relations Board to handle.
Senator Goldwater. That is right. That has no particular bearing
on this. I merely read this in the morning paper, and it reminded
me that the strike was going on and something that I wanted to ask
you about.
I think, frankly, that if you accept my opinion or not, it is rather
unusual to have a strike like this where the ITU is already bargaining
for the workers and here is another organization, evidently a com-
petitor to the ITU, wanting to come in and you, in essence or in effect,
are helping the IMU get a good foothold where the ITU is already
working.
Mr. HoFFA. Of course, that isn't correct, Senator. Under my solu-
tion that I proposed, and the business agent and the president, Joe
Prebenda has presented to the editors, it gives the ITU, which is the
bargaining representative, the right to settle the dispute on the basis
of arbitration as their contract calls for, not recognizing the inde-
pendent union.
Senator Goldwater. Paying no attention, then, to the IMU ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator Goldwater. AVould you not solve the whole thing by allow-
ing your men to go through the picket line of a nonrecognized union ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, we have not told the drivers not to go through
the picket line. They have the privilege and the right as individuals
to go through the picket line and go to work, if the company will pro-
duce a newspaper.
But I think you overlook the fact that the company will not produce
a newspaper for our drivers to deliver until the picket line is removed
and the 86 men remained fired. They are the ones that are creating
the strike, Senator, not our drivers or not the labor organization.
Senator Goldwater. I did not accuse you or your drivers of creat-
ing the strike. I think you added fuel to the fire, however.
I want to get into one other thing, because we are just winding
up your business connections and I understand we are going to go into
another phase of your activities.
Senator McNamara. Will the Senator yield before you leave the
subject?
Senator Goldwater. I will be glad to.
Senator McNamara. I am interested because I have gotten a great
deal of mail and telegrams on this situation in Detroit.
Do I understand the information you have to be that two-thirds
of the stoppage is due to a lockout ?
]\Ir. HoFFA. That is correct, sir.
Senator McNamara. On two of the papers. And one of them is
due to a strike by a nonrecognized union under the contract?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I may say that the Detroit Free Press and
the Detroit News, to circumvent the dispute, requested that they have
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5095
a right to print a joint newspaper, with the masthead of the Detroit
Free Press on it, and the business agent was requested to make de-
liveries of that paper, which, in effect, circumvented the strike that
they have in the Detroit News.
He called me at home and asked me what he should do, and I
instructed him to deliver those newspapers, even though it was a joint
masthead, which he did.
Unfortunately, the following day, the newspaper owners got to-
gether and closed down all three plants, even though we were deliver-
ing the papers under a joint masthead.
Senator McXamara. Then you state the newspaper publishers are
responsible for the failure to produce papers in the city of Detroit
and not the unions involved, for two-thirds of the situation?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes. The Times and the Free Press are not involved,
sir.
(At this point. Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
Senator McNamara. You use the initials ITU, which I under-
stand to mean the International Typographical Union.
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Senator McNaheara. What is the II^IU?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it is the International Mailers Union. Isn't
it, sir?
Senator Goldwater. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Would they be a chartered outfit?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. It is a national organization, a national inde-
pendent organization.
Senator McNamara. Are these the same individuals who formerly
were part of the ITU?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Then these IMU members are people who have
long seniority in these jobs, generally speaking?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Then the only change represented by the IMU
and the ITU is there is no new organization as far as the individuals
are concerned, but it is just a change in the initials?
Mr. Hoffa. That is correct, sir.
Senator McNamara. Then I do not see why you do not have a moral
obligation to support them, since these people have a real equity in
the newspaper industry.
They have spent their lives in it in many instances, and I think you
are absolutely right in giving them support.
Senator Goldwater. I am not going to argue with my good friend
from Michigan now. We will do it later.
I want to get into one more thing before we go to the next phase.
Senator McNamara. I thank you for yielding.
Senator Goldwater. I am happy to yield.
During the course of listening to your business transactions and
the transactions of others we have had hearings about, but particu-
larly in your case, I am coming to the conclusion that there is nothing
in your constitution or in the law to prevent you, your wife or your
union, from investing in companies with which you deal as bargain-
mrr aeents.
5096 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
It is not illegal, either according to your constitution or according
to the law of the State or of the country. I want to ask you this:
Do you think it is morally right for you to do this?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it is morally right as long as there is no strings
attached to it, nor does it operate to the detriment of the working
people who belong to the union.
Senator Goldw^\ter. You recognized yesterday, I believe, though
1 was not here, that it did constitute a conflict of interest ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. I agreed that the ethical practices com-
mittee had ])ointed that out, and that it was my intention to comply
with ethical practice in disposing of any holdings that I may have
which are in violation of the ethical practice.
Senatoi" Goldwater. If you will bear with me, and I ai)ologize to
the committee for taking this time, but I think it is important, I w-ant
to read out of the AFI^CIO code of ethical practices, what they say
about this and I agree with it. I read in part, page 31 :
There are principles iuherent in tlie conception of a fi'ee, lionest, and demo-
cratic trade union movement, whicli, the committee believes, virtually dictate
the outlines of any code of ethical practices dealing with union finances.
The first of these principles hardly requires statement. It is simply that a
labor imion is an organizjition whose primary function is to improve the wages,
hours and working (-onditions of tlie eniph)yees it represents, through the proc-
esses of colled ive bargaining with the employers. It is nor a business enter-
prise nor an investment conijiany.
Xow I w411 go over to page 33, at the bottom :
Because a union is a union, not a business organization or a trust comi»any,
the rules which guide its use and investment of funds are necessarily diffetent.
For example, investments by business organizaticms in other businesses from
which they buy or sell, so that the investing business may get favored treat-
ment in its sales or purchases, may be an acceptable business practice: similar
investment by a labor union in business interprises with which it bargains
collectively presents serious problems. Such investment is not good practice
for a union.
Then down at the bottom of page 34 :
Similarly, the business community may not regard it to be a bad business
practice for a business enterprise to buy or sell from firms in which tiie officers
of the business have a financial interest. Nor may the business community
regard it as bad practice for a business organization to lend money, on ade-
quate security, to members of the oi'ganization.
Because the funds of the labor unions ai'e both held in trust for the benefit
of its members and are held to further legitimate trade-union purposes, prac-
tices which may be acceptable in bvisiness organizations, the committee be-
lieves should be limited, if not completely eliminated, among labor organizations.
Then, as they list the rules under this particular section which deals
with the finances, under No. 3 :
Neither the AFL-CIO or any naticmal or international union affiLiared with
the AFL-CIO should permit any of its funds to be loaned, invested, or other-
wise dealt with in a manner which inures to the personal profit or adAantage
of any oflScer, representative, or employee of the union.
It goes on to say in paragraph 4 :
Neither the AFL-GIO nor any national or international union atfiliated with
the AFL-CIO should enter into any contracts of purchase or sale or for the
rendition of services which will inure to or result in the personal profit or
advantage, including gifts of more than nominal value, other than his regular
•alary or compensation, of any oflBcer, representative, or employees of the union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5097
And then, No. 5, the final one :
Neither the AFL-CIO nor any national or international union affiliated with
the AFL-CIO should invest in or make loans to any business enterprises with
which it bargains collectively.
Mr. Hoffa, I wish to ask you one more question and this has to do
witli the legislative responsibilities of this conunittee.
In view of the fact that we liave found this practice to be prevalent
among the unions that we have investigated so far, and because the
AFL-CIO rightly recognizes that what might be accepted in the
business fields bex:ause the funds are funds to be invested and make
money from, cannot be accepted in the union field because they are
funds that are held in trust, so to speak, for the members, do you
think that the Congress would be right in considering legislation
that would prohil)it the use of dues money that we have found during
your case and other cases?
Mr. Hoffa. Senator, I think the ethical practice rules that you have
outlined, if taken to the point where they are enforced, you will find
]io need for any additional laws.
Senator Goldwater. You are assuming that they will be enforced ?
Mr. Hoffa. I assume they will, sir ; yes.
Senator Goldwater. Sup])ose they are not ?
Mr. Hoffa. That is a different question. At that time I imagine
somebody will have to give a different answer.
Senator Goldwwter. Do you think that the Congress would be
wrong in considering such legislation?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I would say, sir, that if you pass a law, it ought
to cover not only labor organizations, but it also ought to apply to
officials of companies, using company funds for the purpose of making
a profit for themselves, and give the same coverage to both manage-
ment and labor.
Senator Goldwater. Well, it is a little bit different, for this reason :
If you have a partnership, let us say, or a privately run business — if
you were running your own business — you have the right to take your
funds and invest them as you want to. In a partnership, you can get
together with your partner and decide you are going to take money out
and invest it. If you have a corporation, you are already protected
l)y corporate laws. So we have this one big field with these vast sums
of money that can be used, as we have seen, almost any way that the
officials want to use them, moneys that are actually trust moneys of the
millions of members of the unions in this country.
It is not so much to work a penalty on the leaders of labor as it is to
])rotect the individual members whose money this really is that I
suggest the advisability of the Congress at least considering a law to
correct or to prevent these things.
Mr. Hoffa. If it is an equal law, sir, applied to everybody con-
cerned, that is one thing. But if it is a law for penalty purposes,
against an organization, it is a different thing. I wouldn't want to be
in a position to
Senator Goldwater. I do not suggest a penalty-type law. We al-
ready have laws on our books to take care of the misuse of money in
corporations, the stealing of money, if you want to call it that, by one
partner from another.
5098 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
But there are no laws that actually apply to the business of money
such as we have heard here,
Mr. HoFFA. Well, certainly I believe that the membership's money
is entitled to be fully protected.
Senator Goldwater. I am glad to hear you say that.
I have one more thing before you go. We were talking about the
fact that you give mone}- to certain gubernatorial campaigns in the
years when elections come up, and I think jou mentioned Iowa,
Kansas, Michigan, and Kentucky.
I want to just again urge you and Mr. Gibbons, if he is listening, to
send that list in and, with it, if you would, please, the names of the
recipients and the amounts of money that were involved. If it is not
asking too much, I would like to have you submit a list of all political
donations that you made in the last election.
Could that be done?
Mr. HoFFA. I wil] attempt to get the information together.
Senator Goldwater. I will be very happy to see it.
Senator Curtis. ]\Ir. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Hoffa, yesterday you said the net worth of
the local union to which you belong was about $1,600,000. Could you
give us an estimate of the aggregate net worth of the International
Brotherhood of Teamsters ? By "aggregate," I mean net worth of the
locals in the international and any other units of that organization.
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. I would be in no position to give you any such
figures, because I doubt if they have been ever assembled.
Senator Curtis. It is sizable, is it not ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would think so ; yes.
Senator Curtis. One of the big businesses of the country ?
Mr. Hoffa. I believe so.
The CiiAiR:\rAX. Senator Kennedy, take the chair, please.
Senator Curtis. I feel that way about it. I feel tliat you represent
a rich and powerful segment of our economy, the vested interest, and,
therefore, you have certain responsibilities to society.
How is the proper way to organize the unorganized ? How do you
suggest tliat they go about it ?
(At this point. Senator Ives entered the hearing room.)
]Mr. Hoffa. To organize the unorganized ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, we have been trying to find the answer to that
question since there have been unions in this country, and there
doesn't seem to be any accepted answer, standard accepted answer, to
organizing unorgani zed.
Senator Curtis. I am asking how you say it is proper.
]Mr. PIoffa. First of all you must have a staff of organizers who go
out in the field and contact the workers.
Senator Curtis. To contact the workers ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Tliat is tlie first thing.
]Mr. Hoffa. Tlien you must have a research department that will
give you the proper information to use as a basis of discussion with
the workers. Th^n vou must liave experienced peo]:)le who can talk
to the workers wlien they are assembled, and show them the reasons
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5099
why, and to the best interests, that they should join a hibor organ-
ization.
Senator Curtis. Is that the way you do it, is it ?
Mr. HoFFA. In some instances. In other instances, you have to do
it differentlv.
Senator Curtis. I am glad to know you do that in some instances.
After you contact the workers, how many of them do you have to get
interested before you can proceed with an organization, percentage-
wise?
(At this point, Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Mr. HoFFA. Do you mean in regards to negotiating. Senator ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. I would say that you could have either a limited num-
ber, a majority number, or all, if the employer was willing to recognize
the fact that you represented his workers
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I cannot hear what is going on.
There is too much noise.
Senator Ives. We will get a little order.
Come to order.
Go ahead.
Senator Curtis. You can make demands for a contract if you
have less than a majority ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Can you make demands for a contract if you do
not have any members ?
Mr. HoFFA. I do not believe that there is any law that prevents a
union from discussing with management a contract in regards to a
labor union if they do not have any of the employees in the organiza-
tion, if it is a voluntary agreement.
Senator Curtis. Voluntary agreement with whom?
Mr. HoFFA. Management and union representatives.
Senator Curtis. In other words, you do carry on organizing by
negotiations between management and union officials without ever
contacting the workers. Is that not true ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, you understand that the contract you will sign
with management, and the basis I am talking about, would be for the
members only, and that there could be a possibility in that instance
that you would not
Senator Curtis. You did not answer my question.
Mr. HoFFA. What is that?
Senator Curtis. The teamsters union does make a practice of it, of
expanding tlieir scope by contacting management, and getting man-
agement to place their employees in the union, is that not true ?
Mr. HoFFA. In some instances where there is an areawide or an
industrywide contract, and certain employers are paying less than
the prevailing scale, the union may contact the management for
Senator Curtis. And the union does that sometimes when the em-
ployees do not want to belong to the teamsters union?
Mr. HoFFA. In some instances; yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you approve of that ?
Mr. HoFFA. In some instances; yes, sir.
89330— 57— pt. 13 12
5100 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. You approve of an employer si<inin<i- a contract
that puts the workers in a union to which they do not belon<r, do not
wish to belong?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator Curtis, that isn't the question that I answered.
I answered you the question that if— —
Senator Curtis. I am asking that ({uestion now. Do you approve
of that?
Mr. IIoFFA. If it is to — if the nonunion people are operating to
the detriment of the organized individuals in that particular industry
or locality, I believe that the union has a right to use economic
strength for the purpose of organizing the unorganized workers and
signing contracts so they can adjust the wages of the nonunion people
so that the union people will not sutler a reduction in wages.
Senator Curtis. How do you define a secondary boycott ?
Mr. HoFFA. How do I define a secondary boycott ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. AVell, I don't think that the courts have even defined it,
so I couldn't do it, sir.
Senator Curtis. AYell. you put some in operation, do you not?
Mr. HoFFA. What is that?
Senator Curtis. You put some in operation, do you not ?
Mr. HoFFA. I leave that to the lawyers to advise me, Senator.
Senator Curtis. But the lawyer does not do the work on it?
Mr. HoFFA. No ; but he advises me what is right and what is wrong.
Senator Curtis. What do you do when you engage in a secondary
boycott ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would have to know the ])articular set of facts to give
you an answer and then consult with the lawyers to give you a proper
answer.
Senator Curtis. Do you approve of a secondary boycott?
Mr. HoFFA. It is according to what you describe as a secondary
boycott.
Senator Curtis. AYe will give a simple definition. Boycotting a
neutral establishment where there is no labor dispute pending.
You approve of that, do you?
iNIr. HoFFA. Well, it isn't necessarily a secondary boycott, because
if there was a nonunion concern, there would be nothing to stop the
union from circulating letters to their members or information asking
their members and notifying their members that it was nonunion and
askino- their members to cooperate in not buying nonunion mer-
chandise until it became union.
Senator Curtis. I am not talking about those classic cases where
you contact workers and try to interest them in union membership.
1 am talking about it where you go in the front door and you tell
management "You put your employees in the teamsters union or you
get no business."
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I don't believe that that happens in any
instance that I know of, because I think you would immediately be
enjoined on that basis.
Senator Curtis. Well, eventually you are, but usuallv they go broke
first.
Mr. HoFFA. Not to my knowledge. Senator.
Senator Curtis. I beg your pardon?
Mr. HoFFA. I know of no instance.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5101
Senator Curtis. Well, I um coming to them. I have them here in
front of me.
You have made tlie statement yesterday that a group of employers
in Nebraska were attempting to drive out and destroy the teamsters
union.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Senator Curtis (reading) :
From a sroup of employers in your State who have handed together deliberately
for the purpose of destroying the teamsters organization —
and so on.
You pay us quite a compliment.
Your one local union is a great little concern with a net worth of
:?!1,('»U.O,()()0. You do not know^ what the net worth of the teamsters is.
You allege that the latter group of employers are going to drive you
out of business.
Now I want to ask you this : Have the teamsters driven anybody out
of business ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, we have driven nobody out of business, but
some employers rather than sign a laljor contract have seen fit to go
out of business.
Senator Curtis. I do not think that is true.
I have before me a case tliat I have spent quite a little time on
because it arose near my home, the case of the Coffee Transfer Co., of
Alma, Nebr., a small town of a couple of thousand people.
They were approached by the teamsters union in August of 1955,
and told they must sign a contract for their employees, or that the
]iot -cargo clause would be enforced, and that no freight would be
turned over to them at Omaha. They asked for evidence that the
teamsters re])resented the union, and the teamsters did not have it.
Tliey liad '2-2 drivers.
The teamsters finally showed up with seven cards. The matter
went back and forth and the employer asked for an election.
^Nlr. Kavner, the man whom Mr. Bellino referred to as a mobster
nnd stinkbomb thrower, advised Mr. Coffee in behalf of your union
that they would stall the proceedings for at least 6 months. I have
a list of all of the proceedings that took place.
Finally, in February of the next year, the National Labor Relations
Board completed counting 22 ballots. The union never got a vote,
but a month before, Mr. Coffee went out of business. He sold his
iissets for $30,000.
Imagine, that a little businessman worth $30,000 is going to destroy
the Teamsters Union.
I hnve another case, I have the correspondence and the documents
on it, but it is summarized in a. couple of paragraphs from the Norfolk,
Nel)r., Daily News, because it refers to the Clark Bros. Transfer there.
This is as of April 6, 1956 :
A few days ago. a news item told of the sale of the assets of the trucking
firm thar Tom Coffee, former State senator, had headed at Alma for 24 years.
It was the end of a small trucker. He, like a number of others, had been driven
^lut of business l)y the teamsters union. To break any organization that will
not follow its orders appears to be the settled plan of the union under .Tames
Hoffa who is reputed to be the big boss of the union in the Middle West.
This was an old paper, last spring.
5102 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
The union is now trying to drive out of business a Norfolk trucking firm be-
cause it will not coerce its unwilling employees to submit to the union. These
are only two.
Then I have a letter from a third small-business man with a handful
of employees.
This is the Lyons Transfer Co., of Columbus, Nebr. He says this :
My case was probably somewhat different than Clark Bros., or the Coffee
case, on account of the union did not contact either the employees or manage-
ment before shutting us down. They seemed to have the idea they could force
us that way without even asking us if we wanted to belong.
(At this point, Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. I have some other cases, but in consideration to
the other committee members, I am not going to take all of the time.
Several of them tell a very tragic story of little-business men being
put out of business by the teamsters union.
One of them, one of these powerful people that were going to
destroy the teamsters union, according to you, says :
My investment of twenty-five to thirty thousand dollars will be a total loss
to me.
He also writes, this little-business man that went out of business
because you shut his business off —
We had no choice anyway, since our freight had all been shut off in Omaha,
and having borrowed every cent for this "dream" of a business of our own.
Imagine those people driving this rich and powerful and vested
interest that you represent out of existence. Besides destroying these
little-business men, Mr. Hoffa, here is what else is happening. 1 have
a letter from a druggist in a small toAvn of less than 1,000. There is
no railroad serving that community anymore. He says :
I have an invoice with the Wyeth Drug Manufacturing Co. in Kansas City,
who sent my order from the Kansas City branch on May 29, 1956, via truck —
this is June —
So far it has not been received here. It is for medicine that is really needed, and
from the salesman's report yesterday, he said it was held up in Omaha due to
the fact that the union drivers will not turn freight over to the nonunion lines
that serve this part of the country.
Mr. Holfa, do you know Jolm Bridge?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir ; I do.
Senator Curtis. What is his business?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe he is a consultant to management.
Senator Curtis. Consultant to management ? Who pays him ?
Mr. HoFFA. The employers, sir.
Senator Curtis. Are 3'ou prepared to state that he is not paid by
the teamsters union, or any part thereof ?
Mr. HoFFA. I am willing to state that I never paid John Bridge any
money insofar as the teamsters unions are concerned that I can ever
recall, and I would want to check the record just so there can be no
mistake. But John Bridge has owmed transportation companies, all
of the years that I have known him, operates an office out of Chicago
and represents management, and, to my knowledge, does not represent
labor.
Senator Curtis. I would like to liave that question inquired into.
Mr. HoFFA. I think your staff has inquired into it.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5103
Senator Curtis. You wouldn't go any further than to say that you
can't remember whether you paid John Bridge, is that your state-
ment ^
Mr. HoFFA. I did not pay John Bridge any money for labor rep-
resentation.
Senator Curtis. Have the teamsters ever paid him any money?
Mr. HoFFA. To my knowledge; no.
Senator Curtis. Do you know him well ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir ; for a number of years, sir.
Senator Curtis. And how often a year do you see him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think I see John about every 90 days or more often,
because he represents the employers in these joint area meetings held
in Chicago for the purpose of adjusting grievances on the employers'
side of the table.
Senator Curtis. What else does he do ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think he is a consultant to management in regards
to the economics of their operation.
Senator Curtis. What services does he render to the union?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I would say if there is a service he renders, I
can't find it, to my knowledge.
Senator Curtis. He seems to be an important cog in your or-
ganizing efforts, isn't he?
Mr, HoFFA. Well, if he is helping us to organize, it must be a
strange way.
Senator Curtis. You know about it, don't you ?
Mr. HoFFA. How is he helping us to organize? I would like to
have that information.
Senator Curtis. He is the man that notified all transportation com-
panies not to turn freight over to these little businessmen imtil they
sign up their employees in your union.
Mr. HoFFA. I just stated that Mr. Bridge represents management,
and under our contract it is necessary that we contract Mr. Bridge
to carry out the provisions of our contract, who, in return, consults
with the individuals that he represents, sir.
Senator Curtis. Sometimes he sends up some very pointed sug-
gestions, too, doesn't he ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I am not in a position to speak for Mr. Bridge,
Senator.
Senator Curtis. But you do see him often ?
Mr. HoFFA. I see him in the regular course of union business.
Senator Curtis. And you have obtained quite a few new union
members because of Mr. Bridge's activities ; haven't you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, Mr. Bridge, to my knowledge, in regards to the
Nebraska situation, has endeavored to bring about a peaceful solution
to a very unsettled problem.
Senator Curtis. Unconditional surrender ; is that what you mean ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. I rather it means — and I may say, sir, when
you are through, I have a letter here which explains the necessity of
those letters you just read, as to why the teamsters unions have taken
the position they have in Nebraska. Wliether you want it read here
or given to you personally, sir, I will do either one you want, but I
think it will answer your questions more complete than I ever can.
It was signed by Mr. Alvin Brown, the president of the Small Car-
riers Association of Nebraska, speaking, again, for an employers' as-
5104 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
sociation. And wherein they point out, and I don't want to go into a
two-page letter and take up the committee's time, so I will submit it
to you, where they point out that they refuse to put into effect a
negotiated wage increase that is due to their employees because the
balance of the industry in their area isn't organized, and that the non-
union employer paying a lesser wage than they are paying is putting
them out of business, not the union.
I also have here
Senator Curtis. Who is that letter from ?
Mr. HoFFA. From Alvin Brown, president of the Small Carriers
Association of Nebraska, sir.
I have here a breakdown which will not take very long to read, if I
may, of five companies.
Senator CtrRTis. Who is the letter addressed to?
Mr. HoFFA. Harvey Davis, business agent, local union No. 784»
30714 West Second Street, Grand Island, Xebr., and, likewise, letters
were sent to the other outstate local unions on the same basis of refusal
to put into effect the negotiated contract increases on the premise that
their competition was either not organized or was not paying
equivalent to the same wage that they were paying per hour, sir.
Senator Curtis. That is the gist of tlie letter ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it is more than tliat. They point out, and very
bitterly complain, that the union hasn't organized the competition,
and it states as follows, if I may :
Reference is made —
Is it all right ?
The Chairmax. Do you want the letter read ?
Senator Curtis. He can tell us what it says. It is all right with
me. I will accept his summary.
So far you said that some employees complained about their
competition.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I could read one paragraph, and I think it might
sum it up, sir.
Reference is made to our conversation of last Wednesday concerning the
increase in wages scheduled to become effective August 1, 19.57, and as you are
aware, the contract under which we are working was signed at a time of great
stress, under tlie assumption of a considerable cliange in tlie economic picture
in Nebraska. The union had every hope and promise of organizing the trucking
industry completely, and in addition planned a general organization of industry
in the State. The proposed overall organizational activity has failed, little
progress being made in the organizational structure of truckers, and less in
roads have been made on general industry in our area. The few truckers whicli
signed were signed to contracts that were very much lower than our contract, and
in some instances perpetuated these variances far into the future. Specifically.
McAllister has a dock wage of $1.60 an hour and an over-the-road wage of
$1.85 without mileage pay.
Then they go on to list other carriers.
The action takes in efforts to organize the small carriers in some warehouses
as a result of these carriers gathering around them industry, cliamber of com-
merce, and the innumerable one-man truckers in the State, who, by concentrated
efforts, defeat rate increases which we have striven to obtain, and this is
truly an unlaoly combination, working against the best interests of organized
labor, and certainly against the best interest of the organized trucker in the
State. It is unfortunate that this combination has received great public
sympathy. Ever-increasing co.sts, other than those of labor, are well known to
your organization, as they reflect in the cost of living.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5105
And I Avon't go into the reading of all of that, because I don't want
to take the time.
Senator Curtis. I understand the letter, but it does not support
your charge that anybody is organized to destroy the teamsters union,
Mr. HoFFA, It is right here. I just read you a paragraph.
Senator Curtis. There is nothing that you have read, and I don't
want to take any more time, that you have read or summarized that
points to that at all. It is a complaint of one man on behalf of em-
j^loyers that some of his competitors are not paying as much as he is,
and that they can't get raises in rates.
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. It is complaining that the chamber of com-
merce is spearheading a drive against organized labor, and is pointing
out that the organized carrier is being put out of business not by the
union but by the chamber of commerce, and a combination of truckers
who are nonunion.
That is what it is pointing out.
Senator Curtis. Well, I still don't think that your gigantic com-
bination is being threatened by these little people wdio have lost their
business and these little communities that have been denied their
services by your boycotts.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, unfortunately, all of the little people in
Nebraska make up a part of our international union, and the unfor-
tunate little person, who is likewise losing his job because of un-
organized competition, is just as keenly hurt as the person who works
for a nonunion company, when that company itself, voluntarily, de-
cides to go out of business, and is not placed out of business by the
teamsters union.
(At this point Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Senator Curtis. I will ask you one more question.
Do you know of this man Kavner ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir ; I laiow Mr. Richard Kavner.
Senator Curtis. What position does he hold now ?
Mr. HoFFA. A business representative for the central conference. I
may say, and I didn't want to raise the question this morning, I may
say that the inference that Mr. Bellino placed on Mr. Kavner's
reputation cannot be supi)orted by fact, but is an inference that he
himself has gathered together from some individual, I do not know
who, who is trying to simpl}^ make a misstatement of the character
of Richard Kavner. I do not believe he has ever been convicted
of any crime. I do not believe that anybody can say that Mr. Kavner
is anything other than a high-caliber individual.
Senator Curtis. I am sure he appreciates your character recom-
mendation.
That is all.
Mr. HoFFA. Thank you.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator McNamara.
Senator McNamara. Did I understand from the letter that you
were quoting, that the wage scale of the organized truck drivers is
$1.85 an hour in this situation ?
Mr. HoFFA. And I may say, sir, in that instance, it was a 50-cent
increase to bring it up to $1.8(), even though the $1.80 was not the $2.24
5106 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
which is the recognized wage scale. But recognizing you cannot bring
drivers up from $1.30 to $2.24 at one time, we tried to adjust it up
gradually.
Senator McNamara. This means about $72 a week for a 40-hour
week?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. That is considerably lower than the wage
scale existing in the Michigan area ?
Mr. HoFFA. It certainly is.
Senator McXamara. I don't think it would be a hardship on the
industry to pay $72. It seems to me that is a pretty reasonable rate
for truck drivers. I don't think I have heard of anything quite that
low for a long time.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I may say this is not the normal organized
rates. I hope you understand*^ that.
Senator McNamara. But you do have an agreement to work
with these rates under the circumstances ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir; under the circumstances with these two par-
ticular truckers.
Senator McNamara. Largely because they are small-business
people ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. All right.
Senator MuNDT. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Muxdt. Mr. Holla, turning to a different State and a dif-
ferent time and a different period of your career, let me ask you this :
Were you ever involved in strike violence in the city of Flint, Mich.,
going back perhaps 15 or 20 years ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall — I cannot recall being involved in any
strike violence in Flint. I can't recall being involved in it.
Senator Mundt. Do you recall strike violence occurring there — I
suppose you probably were perhaps a workingman then, I don't
know, or perhaps you were a minor official of the teamsters at that
time — in which a Sheriff AVolcott was hit over the head, and if my
information is correct, you were on the side of law and order in that
particular strike ?
Mr. HoFFA. You are talking about the sitdown strike year, I
believe. Is that correct ?
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I was in the cit}^ of Flint during the sitdown
strikes long before some of the now publicized leaders claimed that
they were involved in the organization of workers, and I well recall
the sitdown days in Flint when the troops were brought in, when
there was a very unrestful situation in Flint. We did attempt at
that time to operate our equipment into and out of the city of Flint
insofar as other industries, other than those affected by strike.
Senator Mundt. Were you one of the strikers ? Were you one of
the teamsters trying to go through the picket line ?
Mr. HoFFA. I was representing the teamsters union, not trying to
go through the picket line, because I did not believe that the line
should be crashed. I was in sympathy with the strikers gaining their
point.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5 J 07
However, we saw no reason from stopping all of the trucks from
going into Flint, Mich., but we did believe that the trucks should not
go where the strike was, but not tie up the entire town as was at-
tempted to do.
Senator Mundt. You don't know about any personal violence in
which you were involved ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe that I was involved in any personal
violence, sir. Well, I think now I recall that we had a little scufllle
to get some of the trucks moving at one particular point. That is a
long ways back. I think there was a little scuffle.
Senator Mundt. How did it happen that you then took what ap-
pears to be a different attitude toward a strike line, a picket line,
than you now take in connection with the Detroit strike ?
Mr. HoFFA, I don't, sir. I said we should respect the picket line
and assist the sitdown strikers, but I did not believe that we should
keep all the trucks out of Flint in industries where there Avas no
strike. That is the point I want to make.
(At this point. Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt. In other words, at that time in your career you
were not in favor of what Mr. Curtis and you have been talking
about as a secondary boycott ?
Mr. HoFFA. That was not a secondary boycott. That was a pri-
mary strike, sir.
Senator Mundt. Had the trucks refused to serve the city of Flint
there, that would have been a secondary boycott.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it could have been, but the point was that there
was no strike involved, only with the automobile manufacturers and
we saw no reason why we should not serve the rest of the city where
they were not involved in a strike.
Senator Mundt. Throughout your career as a member of labor
unions, have you always been in the teamsters, or were you once in
theUAW-CIO?
Mr, HoFFA. No, sir. I was never in the UAW-CIO. I have been
in the teamsters, the Federal labor unions, and an independent union,
sir.
Senator Mundt. I would like to ask you a question now that I
asked one of your competitors in the forthcoming election. I am
talking to you now as candidate Hoffa instead of witness Hoffa.
The general public, and I assume a great many of the teamsters,
are going to be interested in some of your platform policies, your
public policies, your labor policies, and public-attitude policies, as
the forthcoming international president of the teamsters organization
if you are successful in your election,
JBasically, do you believe in socialism ?
Mr, Hoffa. I positively do not.
Senator Mundt. Do you believe in our private-enterprise system?
Mr. Hoffa. I certainly do.
Senator Mundt. Is there some difference in political philosophy
between you and some other prominent labor leaders in this country ?
Mr, Hoffa. Well, there certainly is, and it is going to remain so.
Senator Mundt. Do you belie\^e that the laboring man is entitled
to have every reasonable safeguard provided for the protection of
his welfare and pension funds and any other funds that he pays in
as a dues-paying member ?
5108 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IK THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I have no objection to the reo;uhitions necessary to pro-
tect his interest.
Senator Mundt. Any legislation that would do that in a reasonable
and responsible manner, you would be inclined to support?
Mr, Hoffa. Reasonable and responsible.
Senator Mundt. ^Ve have had a case — I don't know how closely
you have been following hearings — but we had a case, I think, up in
'New Jersey, where an eni]:)loyer took the money checked off from the
union dues-paying members to finance his defunct organization.
So far as this committee could discover, he had not violated any
law. I w^ould think you would be inclined to support some legislation
which would make that certainly illegal.
The unions themselves could not sajfeguard themselves against
that. It is illegal in California, but it is not in New Jersey,
Mr. Hoffa. I think each one of the instances have to be looked
into as to why.
Senator Mundt. What was that ?
Mr. Hoffa. 1 think each instance of that has to be looked into as
why did it happen and liow^ did it happen, sir.
Senator Mundi\ I heard a prominent labor leader on a television
program last Sunday, whose name has been associated with you as a
possible conferee at least in a council of accomodation, if you reach
the top of the labor union, say something to the effect that he did
not believe that the interests of labor and management were in the
same hat, that they inevitably had conflicting points of view and
conflicting interests.
I have heard other labor leaders say that they believe both labor
and management as part of our private enterprise system, have
interests in common, and that by and large those economic processes
which help one help the other.
Would you care to express yourself on that situation ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well. I listened to the same individual, and I say that
I do not agree with him at all, and I believe that management and
labor very definitley must at all times have something in common
because one without the other cannot survive.
Senator Mundt. I agree with you on that statement 100 percent,
and am happy to have you tell me that you do not agree with what
Mr. Bridges said on that program.
Mr. Hoffa. I don't agree with a lot of things Harry Bridges said
on that program.
Senator Mundt. You may lose him as a conferee if you succeed in
amending your constitution the way we were talking about this
morning.
Mr. Hoffa. I assure you I never asked him and I will not accept
Mr. Harry Bridges into the teamsters union under any circumstances
and he has so been told.
Senator Mundt. Good.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator McNamara ?
Senator McNamara. I think we are talking in vague terms when
you endorse or reject socialism. I do not know what it means in the
context that it was used here.
Are you talking about a political philosophy or something else ?
Mr. Hoffa. I assumed it was political philosophy.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5109
Senator Mundt. His assumption was correct.
Senator McNamara. Wliat Avas tliat again ?
Senator Mundt. I say his assumption was correct. I was talking
about the same thing.
Mr. HoFFA. I understood, sir.
Senator McNamara. I did not think they were an important pohti-
cal party and I do not know why it enters into the affairs of this,
committee. I thought socialism was pretty well dead.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, let us get back on the track.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could have about a
•j-minute recess or 5-minute or so?
The Chairman. A 5-minute recess will be in order.
Mr. HoFFA. Thank you, sir.
(Members of the Select Committee present at the taking of the
recess : Senators McClellan, Ives, McNamara, Kennedy, and Mundt.
(Brief recess)
(Members of the Select Committee present at the reconvening of
the session: Senators McClellan, Ives, McNamara, Ervin, Kennedy,
and Mundt.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. It has be-
come apparent that we will not conclude this witness this afternoon.
The members of the conmiittee have some other business to look after
as soon as we can adjourn.
It will be the Chair's intention, unless there is objection, to run until
about 5 o'clock. We will have about 45 minutes. Let us proceed,
now and make as much progress as we can.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoft'a, do you know Johnny Dio?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known him?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe since 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. You met him under what conditions?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that I met Johnny Dioguardi at the Com-
modore Hotel of the AFL convention in 1952. That is my best recol-
lection of the first time I met him.
Mr. Kennedy. What month was that?
Mr. HoFFA. I tliink it was — I believe November.
Mr. Kennedy. November of 1952?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it was. I don't want to be held to it, but I think
so.
Mr. Kennedy. Who introduced you to him?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe Tony Doria did.
Mr. Kennedy. When was the next time you saw him after that?
Mr. HoFFA. I saw him, I believe, in February of 1952, in Miami,
Fla.
Mr. Kennedy. February 1952 or 1953 ?
Mr. HoFFA. Excuse me. 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you in touch with him between November of
1052 and February of 1953?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't remember being in touch with him. It is
possible I may have been by telephone.
Mr. Kennedy. In what connection did you see him in Florida ?
Mr. HoFFA. In connection with the taxicab organization that the
UAW-AFL had going on in New York at that time.
5110 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And he was down there in Miami ?
Mr. HoFFA. We arranged, and I say "we," I arranged, I be-
lieve— and I don't want to be held to this, but I am quite sure it is
right — I believe that I contacted Doria and had arrangements made
for Dio, and I believe Doria was supposed to be there, to come down
to Florida to discuss with President Beck the question of the taxicab
organization of the UAW in New York City.
Mr. Kennedy. For wiiat reason was he coming down to Miami to
discuss this?
Mr. HoFFA. There had been a discussion with the officials, with some
of the officials of our organization, and I believe the UAW officials,
for the express purpose of attempting to get them out of the organiza-
tion of cabdrivers in New York, since the jurisdiction of cabdrivers
belonged to the Teamsters organization under our chartered rights.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you personally become involved in it t
Mr. HoFFA. President Beck requested that I contact Doria, whom
I knew, and see whether or not the problem could be worked out. And
out of the contact with Doria a meeting was arranged in Florida, to
discuss with Mr. Dio, who was the man in charge of the drive, the taxi-
cab question.
Mr. Kennedy. And you had that discussion down tliere ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, we did.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Were there representatives from the joint council
16 present?
Mr. HoFFA. Not to my knowledge, no.
Mr. Kennedy. Was anybody representing the East from the team-
sters present?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that Vice President Hickey was in Miami at
that time for one of the same reasons, for other reasons but for that
reason, also.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he attend these meetings with you and Dio ?
Mr. HoFFA. The meeting that I arranged was with Dave Beck and
Dio to discuss the question of the UAW-AFL getting out of the taxi-
cab organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Hickey present at that meeting?
Mr. HoFFA. No. Mr. Hickey, later on, I understand, met Mr. Beck
the same evening and discussed the question of the New York taxicab
industry, also.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was present at the meeting with you and Mr.
Beck and Dio?
Mr. HoFFA. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all ?
Mr. HoFFA. To my recollection, those were the three that attended
the meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. What position did you take at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I took the position with President Beck, for our inter-
national union, that the taxicab business should be organized, if or-
ganized, under the banner of the teamsters union and that the UAW
had no right to be into the organizing of the taxicab industry.
Also, we discussed the question of how we would go about bringing
in the taxicab organization then existing in the UAW to our organi-
zation.
Dio made the statement that he believed it could be worked out,
and that the organization could come into the teamsters union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5111
However, Dave Beck made it plain that lie could not and would not
issue a charter to Dio.
Mr. IvENNEDY. What was your position about when Dave Beck took
that position on not issuing a charter to Dio ?
(At this point Senator Ervin withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA. I did not request President Beck to issue the charter
to Dio. I was requesting, and continued to request, that a charter be
issued to the officers of that particular branch who were cab drivers.
(At this point. Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Mr. IvENNEDY. Who would have headed it up, that organization?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't remember the fellow's name, but I believe
there was a president named Norton. If I am wrong, maybe you could
help me out. It seems to me I remember a fellow named Norton that
headed it up. Who the rest of them were, I can't tell you, but the name
Norton seems familiar to me.
Mr. Kennedy. So the organization of the UAW-AFL would come
over into the teamsters and receive a charter, all except with the ex-
ception of Johnny Dio \
Mr. HoFFA. That was my recommendation.
Mr. IvENNEDY. That was your recommendation ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. AVhat Avas Mr. Dio's recommendation ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Dio's recommendation at that time was not to give
up the organizing of the cab industry.
Mr. Kennedy. He did not want to give it up \
Mr. HoFFA. No, not at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. You took the opposite position at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I took tlie position that the cab industry came under
the jurisdiction of the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. And he wanted to keep it in the UAW-AFL at that
time ?
Mr. HoFFA. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. There would not have been any discussion about the
organization coming over if the UAAV-AFL did not want to come
over, would there, into the teamsters ? How were you going to make
Mr. Norton president of a teamsters local having a taxicab charter
when, evidently, Mr. Dio did not want them to come over ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is what the meeting was for, to try and convince
the UAW officials that they should not be organizing cabs, and that
tliey shovdd be organized into our international union.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you able to convince him ?
Mr. HoFFA. At that time, no.
Mr. Kennedy. You had meetings with him subsequently ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes. There was a meeting, I believe, and there is dis-
agreement as to where the meeting was held. I tried to check the rec-
ords and I can't check the records or the time, but I can only talk now
about meetings.
It seems to me there was two additional meetings held in New York,
one meeting held on the question of discussing the charter and who
should get the charter in New York. I still maintained that the pres-
ent cab organization sliould have a right to get the charter.
Mr. Kennedy. That was Dio's organization to get the charter?
Mr. HoFFA. Not Dio's organization, but the UAW
Mr. Kennedy- AFL?
5112 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. UAW-AFL — come into that division. Come into the
teamsters union.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what you were aro-uing in favor of?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And there were those who were opposed to it ?
Mr. HoFFA. There were individuals who were opposed to it and
believed that we should establisli a new taxicab charter and attempt
to organize cabdrivers with individuals who I believed would not be
uble to do the job.
Then there was another meeting, and I can't recall this date
either
Mr. Kennedy. This was the second meeting?
Mr. HoFFA. No, this would be the third one. One in Miami, one in
New York and the one I am talking about now.
Mr. Kennedy. Let us go back to New York. Who attended that
meeting ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, noAV, I can't tell you otl'liand, except what I have
read who say they were there. I don't recall exactly who wias at
the meeting, but I know that I was there at a meeting. Where it was
held, I don't know.
I was there discussing this problem and I have been told that other
individuals were there, but 1 would not want to make a statement
under oath that they were there.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the meeting that Mr. Hickey referred to in
liis testimony ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the one he said he was present at?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And Dio was present and you were pi-esent ?
Mr. HoFFA. And Doria, Norton, Beck and Hott'a. I think that is
what Hickey testified to, but I can't place the date, nor can I figure
out the place where we held the meeting. 1 know what he said, but
I can't place it.
Mr. Kennedy. "WHiat position did you take at tliat meeting?
Mr. HoFFA, I still took the position that the present officers of that
organization, if they were going to bring their membership into our
organization, should come along to our organization, since they had
been elected by the rank-and-file members.
It was disagreed by individuals and was left in the hands, naturally,
of the general president, who was the final authority on the question.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you take the position at that meeting that Mr.
Dio should come into the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was not a question at that meeting of Mr. Dio coming
in because Mr. Beck had made it plain at a meeting that I was at
that Mr. Dio could not come in.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell me if at this meeting, the meeting
in New York, you argued for the position that Mr. Dio should come
into the teamsters union ?
Mr, HoFFA. I don't believe that I argued any such a position. I
understand that some have interpreted it as such, but it is my recollec-
tion that I argued as I did in Florida, that if we were going to launch
a successful cab organization, that we should take in the executive
board of the then existing union and issue a charter to those indi-
viduals.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE, LABOR FIELD 5113
Mr. Kennedy. That would be with the exception of Johnny Dio?
Mr. HoFFA. Dio, I do not believe was an oiRcer of that organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Then he would not have had any part in that at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't believe that Dio came under discussion, to
my recollection, of coming in after the meeting in Miami, where Dave
made it clear that Johnny Dio could not come into tlie teamsters union.
Mr. Kennedy. And you never argued for Dio coming into the
teamsters organization after that time '^
Mr. HoFFA. Not to my recollection. There seems to be a difference
of opinion, but not to my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hickey's testimony before the committee was
that you argued very much in favor of Dio receiving a charter from
the teamsters union at this meeting in New York.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, as I say, there can be a misconstruction of my
argument because I was arguing that the then present officers of that
organization bring their membership into the teamsters union.
I do not recall making a statement concerning Dio as such. I don't
recall it.
(At this point. Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. In that connection, he was business manager of the
taxicab local at the time and in that position had the most important
position in the local.
Mr. HoFFA. But I don't believe he was an officer.
Mr. Kennedy. No, not an officer, but he was business manager, and
he is the one, 1 expect you know, that was conducting the drive on the
taxicab drivers.
Mr. HoFFA. He was in charge, I understand, of all of the UAW
affairs in New York, was he not ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, and specifically in local 102. He was present
at this meeting, was he not, in New York ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have been told so. I don't recall him being there.
Mr. Kennedy. AYhat position was he taking during this period of
time, coming from the meeting that you had down in Miami up until
the meeting that you had in New York ^
What position was he taking as far as this organization coming into
the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that Doria at that time was doing most of the
talking.
Mr. Kennedy. What position was Mr. Dio taking ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe that Dio expressed an opinion in that
meeting, to my recollection. I think Doria did most of the talking
during the meeting concerning the question of the cab union coming
into our organization as against the establishment of the charter,
]Mr. Kennedy. What position did he take ?
Mr. HoFFA. Doria took the position, if I recall correctly, and it is
all by recollection, that if we were going organize cab drivers, that
that cui'rent organization should be the one that should carry on the
organizational work. That is the best of my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you discussing this matter with Dio during
this period of time ?
Mr. HoFFA. If they were in the room as claimed, and I don't place
the meeting, as to what hotel, he would have been able to hear the
conversation. I don't know whether or not he participated in the
discussion or not. I don't recall that.
5114 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Were you having any other meetings with him or
talking to him about this matter at any other time?
Mr.^OFFA. It is possible I could have. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. What position was he taking ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I said, Dio didn't see any reason to get out of the
organizing of the cab industry in New York.
Mr. Kennedy. He was opposed to this plan ?
Mr. HoFFA. He wanted to organize them in the UAW-AFL, as
he had originally been trying to do, if I recall it correctly.
Mr. Kennedy. So he was opposed to this, and Mr. Doria had what
position on it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Doria's position, if I recall correctly, and I say it is
very vague in my memory, was that he recognized that they were
out of their jurisdiction, and that if we were going to take the or-
ganization over, we ought to take over the board of the then existing
union.
I think later on some other things developed also.
(xVt this point, Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Mr. Kennedy. IVliy didn't Mr. Dave Beck want Johnny Dio in the
teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Dave Beck did not say he wanted Johnny Dio in
the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. No. Why did he not want Johnny Dio in the
teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. He just made a simple statement. He did not believe
that he should have John Dio in the teamsters union for the cab-
drivers.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason ?
Mr. HoFFA. He didn't say. He just made a statement, Dave isn't
in the habit of telling us why he thinks, and that is it. He is president.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't you inquire into it at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not with Dave.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not. You weren't interested in it ?
Mr. HoFFA. It wasn't a question of that. He was president, and
had the authority to make the decision.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Dio upset about hearing that he wasn't
acceptable to the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, at that time, when Dave told him that, there
wasn't any agreement to have the cab union come into ours.
Mr. Kennedy. But, subsequently. Did you ever have any discus-
sions with Mr. Beck after that, after the meeting in Miami ? Did you
ever have any discussions with Mr. Beck regarding Dio coming into
the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot recall any such discussions. I can't recall them
offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever have any conversations with Dio about
his coming into the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know whether I did or not. I was trying to get
the cab union into the teamsters, and when Dave had said John could
not come in, then I don't see any reason why I would have had a dis-
cussion. I can't recall one.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5115
Mr. Kennedy. If Doria was prepared to come into the union, pre-
pared to come into the teamsters, to bring this local into the teamsters,
and Dio was opposed to it — is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think that either one of them actually wanted
to give up the drive, but I think that Doria recognized that under the
AFL grant of jurisdiction, that he was outside of his jurisdictional
right in organizing cabdrivers.
Mr. Kennedy. At this period of time we are talking about, the first
several months of 1953, were the teamsters themselves active in the
taxicab field ?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember that ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I don't. I think we got interested later on, but
I do not — wait a minute. 1953 ?
I could tell you in a minute.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you find out ?
I think I have some information here. It w\as February 21, 1953,
an article in the New York Times, and it quotes Mr. Beck saying,
and it talks about the taxicab organization drive
Mr. HoFFA, Wlien was the charter issued ?
Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is not a charter.
Mr. Kennedy. It is not a charter. It says:
The other union, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, headed by
Dave Beck, casts coveted eyes on the New York ti.xkub industry. Mr. Beck
disclosed that his organization several weeks ago sti.'tiHl a campaign, and that
Tom Hickey, international vice president is conducting the drive.
So, evidently, there was some activity amongst the teamsters in
New York, amongst the taxicab drivers, is that right, with tjie taxicab
drivers ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would like to try and check something before I give
you an answer, if I may.
Mr. Ivennedy. I don't think the charter, as far as the taxicab
charter, was issued until May, but I think the records will show they
were active in February, March, and April. The charter wasn't
issued until May 22, 1953.
Mr. IIoFFA. Then I couldn't answer your question properly.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversations with Dave Beck
regarding the taxicab drive of the teamsters in New York?
Mr. IIoFFA. Later on ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversations with him, during
this February-March period, that that drive should be called off and
Johnny Dio should be allowed to continue ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall any discussion of the drive. I think
what was attempted to be carried out at that time was a solution
between the two organizations rather than to have a rival organization
to our organization organizing cabdrivers.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you having conferences and conversations with
Mr. Dio during this period of time ?
Mr. IIoFFA. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember that?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know why — well, I know this, that we had two
meetings that I can vaguely recall in New York. One was the one,
89330— 57— pt. 13 13
5116 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES LST THE LABOR FIELD
probably, that Hickey talked about, and there was a second one in the
joint council office. I have checked the best I can with the individuals
who I thought were at that meeting. So, again without being held to
being exactly correct as to those people who were there, I believe that
Mohn, myself, Kaplan, went to Mr. Lacey's office to endeavor to get
Lacey to help in the organizing drive of the cabdrivers. I believe
we did.
Mr. Kennedy. But you weren't during this period of time support-
ing the UAW and Johnny Dio against the teamsters organization
drive ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think we had a cabdrivers union.
Mr. Kennedy. Not a union, but their activity in New York.
Mr. HoFFA. I frankly cannot recall any activity.
I would say this to you : that it is very peculiar if we did. I have
here the per capita tax as being paid by the current cab union, and I
think it reflects around 138 members as of this day paying actual
per capita tax.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, could we put some other evidence
in that we have in connection with this ?
The Chairman. I^t me ask the witness 1 or 2 questions.
Did you have telephone conversations with Mr. Dio regarding this
matter ?
Mr. HoFFA. I could have had, sir.
The Chairman. Would you recall ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir ; I honestly don't.
The Ciiair:han. I believe we are advised that we have some tele-
plione conversations between you.
This recording you liave now is covered by the court order that has
been previously placed in the record ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. xVnd there will be two calls, Mr. Chairman,
that will be in connection with Mr. Hoffa's testimony so far this after-
noon regarding his conversations with Mr. Beck and his conversations
with Mr. Dio regarding this drive.
The Chairman. They relate to the subject-matter?
Mr. Kennedy. So far discussed.
Mr. HoFFA. You have not asked me whether or not I had a conversa-
tion with JNIr. Beck on the phone about it. Do you want to know
whether I did or not, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. I will be glad to.
Mr. HoFFA. I probably had telephone conversations with Mr. Beck
on the phone after the meeting in Miami. What was said in those
telephone conversations, I do not recall, nor do I recall what was said
in the telephone conversations with Dio.
Mr. Kennedy. I think that the record speaks for itself as to what
you said about your conversations with Mr. Beck and your conversa-
tions with Mr. Dio and your position on this whole matter during this
period of time.
The Chairman. They will probably help the witness to refresh his
memory or to confirm what the witness may have already testified to.
Are you ready to play the records?
Mr. Fitzgerald. If you are going to play a recording, may I be
heard, briefly, Your Honor ?
The Chairman. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5117
Mr. FiTZGERiVLD. Mr. Chairman, I have this set out so that I can do
it concisely and not waste words and not waste the time of the
committee.
The Chairman. Very good.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Under title 47, section 605 of the United States
Code, Annotated, the interception and divulgence of telephone com-
munications is unlawful. Any person who does not intercept but
nevertheless divulges or publishes or uses the existence, contents, sub-
stance, purport, or effect of an intercepted communication, also vio-
lates such statute. This statute contains no exclusion in favor of the
State of New York or in favor of any Federal employee, officer, or
Member of Congress, or even the Senate of the United States or com-
mittee thereof. Therefore, any divulging or use of communications
which may have been intercepted, even under State law, is in direct
violation of the statute. We therefore feel that this committee and its
staff should not, in the carrying out of its lawful purpose, even re-
motely be a party to a possible violation of a Federal statute. We
therefore object to such use insofar as they affect or relate to Mr. Hoffa.
Now, I realize that the use in a court of certain recordings obtained
from a telephonic interception, may be used as evidence. That is one
thing.
As to whether or not it has been a violation of the statute by Federal
agents or anyone else is certainly another thing.
We therefore ask that the committee be polled on this subject before
the tap or the recording from the so-called tap or interception be used.
I think, Mr. Chairman, that this does raise a serious legal question,
and I think that it concerns not only the authority of the committee,
but the right of the witness, and substantial justice itself. I think
before proceeding along those lines we should equate the interest of aU
parties concerned, and that the matter should not be summarily
disposed of.
The Chairman. The committee has had this question before it since
these hearings began. I have ruled that these taps were obtained not
by a Federal agency, but obtained in the State of New York, where
the obtaining of them was legal, under the order of a court of compe-
tent jurisdiction, and, therefore, are legal testimony in the State of
New York and they would be legal before this committee because we
are particularly investigating the New York area.
There is a late decision with which I am sure you are familiar. It is
the decision decided on July 22, 1957, in the case of the United States
of America against Frank Costello. That is the Second Court of
Appeals, Second Circuit Court of Appeals.
Among other things they say, and I quote, just for the record at this
point :
We have also considered whether the decision can be sustained on the ground
that, as shown by the record, the Government's evidence was by and large
inadmissiDle. We hold that no such demonstration was made. Wiretapping
in 1925 and 1926 allegedly produced the defendant's prosecution in later years.
The proof of such wiretapping was spread on the public record at the open trial
for bootlegging. We do not construe section 60-5 of the Communications Act
of 1934, 47 United States Code 605. to render it a crime to republish informa-
tion which was lawfully intercepted and divulged once before prior to that
act's passage. The fruit of any 1925-26 taps is admissible. The wiretaps in
1943 were done by State officers without FBI connivance. They are admissible
in a Federal court, and the fruit of them, if similarly obtained, without Federal
connivance, is also admissible.
5118 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The highest authority as of now says that they are legal.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair briefly again ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I notice particularly that the taps in the Costello
case, which I am familiar with, in that case the Second Circuit Court
of Appeals does specify that the taps and the recordings were obtained
prior to the passage of the act. I don't think there is much change
111 the ruling as far as the use in evidence in a court proceeding is con-
cerned, Mr. Chairman, because what they are doing is applying the
old law of search and seizure that they had in prohibition days, where,
if Federal officers didn't connive in the obtaining of the evidence by
an illegal search, it would be admissible in a Federal court. But i
think we have a different situation here with respect to its admis-
sibility or its divulging, publishing, or use before a senatorial
committee.
In the case of a man being tried or accused with crime, there are
certain rules laid down, and those rules, every decision that we have
been able to find, cover the use of such evidence regardless of how
obtained, as long as it was obtained without any illegality on the part
of the Federal Government, covers the use of evidence in a specific
trial where a specific defendant is charged with a violation of a specific
law.
But we have a different situation here. We are not cloaked in this
inquiry, and I say this respectfully because the committee and the
chairman have been very courteous to us, we are not cloaked in this
inquiry with the protection that is thrown around a defendant in the
ordinary criminal trial.
We are not held down to any strict rules of evidence and neither
is the general counsel of the committee.
So for that reason, I say that the applicability of some of those
decisions to the use of a wiretap, either legally or illegally placed
upon a line, and the use of the mformation obtained by that tap, that
they do not apply to the situation at hand.
Therefore, I think that as far as this witness is concerned, I can-
not help but insist upon this for the benefit of protecting his legal
rights before the committee.
The Chairman. The Chair calls to your attention, again, I believe,
the Communications Act was passed in 1934. This decision was just
of a month or two ago. It says, "The fruit of any 1925-26 taps is
admissible" and that was before the act, and then it proceeds to say
that "Wiretaps in 1943" which were subsequent to the act counsel
relies on, "were done by State officers without FBI connivance."
As far as I know, there have been no FBI connections in any way
whatsoever, or of any other agent or officers of the Federal Govern-
ment.
They say, "If they are done by State officers without FBI con-
nivance, they are admissible in a Federal court."
Well, I would asume that if they are admissible in a Federal court,
they would be admissible even if we applied the strict rules of evidence
in a senatorial hearing.
"And the fruit of them, if similarly obtained, without Federal
connivance, is also admissible," and it cites another case in the same
circuit of May 6, 1957.
We have held heretofore that they are admissible.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5119
We are not taking any course of action here with respect to your
client that we have not taken with respect to other witnesses.
Again, it should be remembered that hearsay evidence may be
admissible in any court of law. Here we take a great deal of hearsay
evidence under oath where it gives us information that might be
helpful.
Here we are not trying anybody for crime. If you get hearsay
evidence, you can check against it, and if it proves to be true, you save
the expense of bringing additional witnesses as you might have to do
where you were prosecuting someone for crime.
The Chair will have to rule that these taps are admissible under
the previous rulings of this committee and, as we honestly believe,
under the law as its exists today as interpreted by the highest court
in the circuit in the State where the taps were obtained.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I impose on you for one more word?
Again I say I think you pointed up the question that I raise here,
particularly, that those decisions apply to the use in a court of law,
wherein the branch or the Government of the United States is per-
forming a judicial function. Here you are performing a legislative
function, and to your legislative function is attached certain powers
of investigation, certain powers of inquiry, which I think is good.
But I say, Mr. Chairman, that where we go to the point where you,
without a specific exclusion of a governmental agency, whether it is
State or Federal, where we reach a point where we run straight up
against the prohibition of section 605 of the United States Code, I say,
Mr. Chairman, that I think we seriously affect the rights of substantial
justice of a person who appears before this committee and who sub-
jects himself to questioning, fully answers the subpena, and makes a
complete, honest disclosure of everything to this committee.
Now, if Mr. Hoffa was in the position of a man who, for the past
2 days, had taken the fifth amendment, or attempted to hide some-
thing, we would be in a different situation. But I think that by and
large Mr. Hoffa has answered every question propounded to him by
everybody. He, without any reservation, has given a full disclosure
of his personal finances. He has made a complete disclosure of his
philosophy as a union leader and his political philosophy.
I think in view of that that this committee should take that into
consideration. I think he should be accorded the right here of having
this particular manner of inquiry, that is, by the use of these taps,
excluded.
I think the chairman for the opportunity of putting this on the
record. I don't want to impose upon you any further.
The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
The Chair, of course, has tried to be indulgent so that you could
get your position clearly in the record.
(At this point, Senator Kennedy withdrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. All right.
The objection is overruled.
We shall proceed. Let us proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say before this starts,
that Ml". Hoffa's testimony was that the decision was made in February
by Mr. Beck, that Mr. Dio would not be allowed into the union, into
the teamsters union, and that Mr. Hoffa, after he heard tliis decision
5120 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
by Mr, Beck, did not appeal it, nor did he attempt to bring Mr. Die
into the teamsters union.
Also, we had some testimony on the activity of the teamsters union
itself in New York in the taxicab drive.
The Chairmajst. All right.
Mr. HoFFA. Let the record show that I said it was to the best of
my recollection.
The Chairman. Yes, the record shows that.
Mr. Kennedy. I am not sure that it said that, but the record speaks
for itself.
The Chairman. Well, he testified. That is the Chair's recollection.
He said to the best of his recollection.
It may not have been in connection with this identical thing, but
we will determine that.
Proceed.
(Transcript of telephone conversation between Johnny Dio and
Jimmy Hoft'a of February 26, 1953 follows :)
Woman's Voice. Just a moment * * * Call LUcas 3757.
Second AVoman's Votce. Lucas 3757?
Woman's Voice. That's rigbt.
Second Woman's Voice. Thank you.
Woman's Voice. Operator, will you call me when you get that number?
Johnny Dio. This is Johnny again.
JiMM^'HoFFA. Yeah, Johnny.
Dio. I'm a pain in the it seems.
HoFFA. No, John ; why?
Dio. I'll tell you what happened. Here we got a couple of garages that are —
that we already have pending elections
HoFFA. Yeah?
Dio. And some of these guys — hello ?
HoFFA. Yeah, Johnny?
Dio. And some of these guys, ah
(Voice : You'll have to wait.)
Dio. Will you get off ray line, ! Hello
HoFFA. Yeah, John ?
Dio. And some of my guys are over there, you know, talking it up about the
pending elections
HoFFA. Yeah?
Dio. And in the meantime some of these teamster guys called up Mr. John
Strong and — ah, John Strong says that 102 has been wiped off the map
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. And for them to carry on
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. And here's the garages particularly that we got 'em all signed up, that
we already had the hearings with them.
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. So, now, what do you suggest?
HoFFA. Well, John, I better get a hold of Dave Beck.
Dio. Uhuh.
HoFFA. Dave will be in Seattle sometime tomorrow ; I'll call Dave and I'll get
New York something in New York State now.
Dio. Uhuh. All right, and I'll probably — will you be in on Saturday?
HoFFA. Ah — I — I'm— I've been sick, John ; I got a terrific cold ; I've
been taking shots of penicillin
Dio. Y'ou gouna stay home?
HoFFA. Well, I'm gonna try and stay in bed if I can.
Dio. Well, all right, so, ah, if you could stay in bed — if I won't be disturbing
you, I could come and bother you from your bedside and then come back.
HoFFA. Okay, either way.
Dio. All right?
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. So I'll get the number off Tom
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5121
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. I invited Tom for dinner tonight so — ah,
HoFFA. Ill be in the office tomorrow.
Did. You'll be in the office tomorrow.
HoFFA. I'll be home Saturday; I'm going to get — try and stay in that be-
Dio. I think you should and if you could stay out of the office tomorrow stay
home.
HoFFA. I can't do that.
Dio. You can't ?
HoFFA. I gotta clean up my mail.
Dio. You're worse than I am.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. All right then, Jim ; I just thought I'd let you know about it.
HoFFA. Fine, John.
Did. So I could clear the minds of my guys over here.
HoFFA. You know, I'm going to be in Washington on the fourth
Dio. On the fourth?
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. Well, all right then, maybe I'm better off waiting until then.
HoFFA. I'm going to be in Washington ; I'll come in the night of the 3d if you
want and we can sit down in Washington the night of the 3d or the evening
of the 4th
Dio. Swell, so I could meet you in Washington on the 3d.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. All right, but in the meantime I'll annoy you on the telephone if it is
not too much trouble.
HoFFA. That's O. K., Jack.
Dio. All right?
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. O. K.
HoFFA. Right, Johnny.
Dio. Right. Bye, bye.
The Chairman. Now the question is, Mr. Ploffa, do you recognize
your voice and that of Mr. Dio's in this conversation ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, I recognize it. I believe that is our voices.
The Chairman, Does this refresh your memory about some of your
conversations with Mr. Dio?
Mr. HdFFA. It refreshes my memory to some conversations I had
with Dio, where I said I may have had some phone calls, but I do
not connect it with the question that Mr. Kennedy asked me, Mr.
Chairman,
The Chairman. Let the record show, and we may have to put on
proof of this, that this recording is dated February 26, 1953. For
your information, we can firm up the record on it later. I believe
you have a copy there that shows you. It is February 26, 1953.
(At this point. Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA. What events is this attributed to ? If it is related to
certain events, maybe I can clear up the record.
The Chairman. After having heard it, I wondered if you could
recall now what it relates to ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, apparently it is a conversation.
Did you say the February 26 date is the right date, sir ?
The Chairman. Well, I have not put on the testimony yet, but I
will firm it up, if you like.
Mr. Kennedy. It is February 26.
Mr. Fitzgerald. When you say firm it up, do you mean by testi-
mony? Of the man who listened?
The Chairman. I can put on the testimony of the witness here
who has heretofore been able to testify
5122 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, Fitzgerald. There is no necessity as far as we are concerned
to do that.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. HoFFA. As long as I can get the date clear, sir.
The Chairman. We will agree that the date is correct.
You may proced.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I ask a question? Mr. Kennedy could an-
swer this. Is this an interstate call ? Is it a call between New York
and Detroit or some city like that?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is all. There is no need of
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. HoFFA. JSIr. Chairman, apparently the question asked by Mr.
Kennedy was did I know there was an organizational drive going
on in New York by other unions. I think that is what it must relate
to, the best I can figure out.
The Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, you proceed to develop the connec-
tion and whatever it relates to, if you have it.
You may do so by interrogating the witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dio— ^this was on February 26, 1953. Could
you tell the committee why Dio in New York City was reporting to
you in Detroit about the taxicab drive in New York City as far as
local 102 is concerned?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't deny the fact. I don't think I stated
that fact, that I was unaware that Dio was conducting a cab organi-
zational drive in the UAW-AFL. That was the purpose of the meet-
ing in Florida, to try and get the UAW out of the organizing status
of UAW-AFL.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was Mr. John Strong at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe John is president of 807 or 707. I think it
is 807.
Mr. Kennedy. It would appear that 807 was conducting a taxicab
drive itself?
Mr. HoFFA. If they wej-e, I would have no knowledge of it, because
807, 1 believe, is a freight local union.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dio told you that at that time?
Mr. HoFFA. Told me what ? He said garages.
Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me ?
Mr. HoFFA. He said garages,
Mr. Kennedy. Well, garages. That is taxicabs.
Mr. HoFFA. Not necessarily. It could be a garage of a truck com-
pany. It could be a garage of almost anything.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't that common nomenclature for taxicab or-
ganizations, that they are attached to certain garages ?
Mr. HoFFA. So it is with trucks.
Mr. Kennedy. But wasn't Mr. Dio at this time conducting the taxi-
cab drive ?
You had conversations with him about that.
Mr. HoFFA. There are also certain other organizing aspects of our
organization, too.
Mr. Kennedy. It says local 102 at that time was conducting a drive
on taxicabs. I draw your attention to the bottom of page 1 :
John Strong says that 102 has been wiped off the map.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5123
There is no question there but that that was the taxicab drive.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think that was a UAW local.
Mr, Kennedy. 102?
Mr. HoFFA. As I recall, it was 201. Well, I don't recall. It is a
long time back, and it is a hazy recollection I have.
Mr. Kennedy. He reports that to you about the teamster interest,
he reports that to you and complains about it, the fact that John
Strong said that local 102 has been wiped off the map, and you say,
"Well, John, I better get hold of Dave Beck."
Why were you getting ahold of Dave Beck on that matter ?
Mr. HoFFA. We discussed in Florida, as I told you, and according
to the record that I have here, which was produced by the interna-
tional office, and I assume it to be correct, subject to checking, the
meeting must have been February 9, in Florida. We were still in the
discussion stage concerning what to do about the cab situation in
New York. So it certainly would not be unusual not to irritate the
situation but to rather try and keep things on an even keel until such
time as we seen whether or not we could straighten it out. It don't
seem unusual to me.
Mr. Kennedy. But here we have a situation where Johnny Dio is
calling you in New York, he is having some trouble with the teamsters
local, which is attempting a drive, and you state in there that you will
get hold of Dave Beck in that connection.
Mr- HoFFA. Well, I don't see anything unusual about the fact that
I would get ahold of the general president to tell him about a situation
in New York City which he was interested in, and attempting to get
adjusted without having any more friction than there was already
concerning our jurisdiction with that local union. I don't see anything
too far wron^ with it.
(At this pomt Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, there was a complaint by Mr. Dio re-
garding the activities of the teamsters union in New York, and you
were going to say — well, in an area that was supposed to be the team-
sters, according to your own position on the matter- you say, "Well,
John, I better get ahold of Dave Beck. Dave will be in Seattle." And
you were going to get ahold of him in that connection.
Mr. HoFFA. Exactly what would be wrong with that ?
Mr. Kennedy. The complaint was that Strong had said local 102
was going to be wiped off the map. . Why wouldn't you just allow the
teamster in New York, the teamster local in New York, to carry out this
matter themselves ? Why was it necessary for you to be getting ahold
of Dave Beck in this connection, to help Johnny Dio?
Mr. HoFFA. I think I told you that I had been contacted by Dave
Beck for the purposes of trying to arrange the meeting concerning
this taxicab situation, and, necessarily, if there was going to be an
additional problem, I think I would necessarily get ahold of Dave
Beck on that additional problem.
Mr, Kennedy. So we can understand it clearly, then, you were not
interested in Johnny Dio at that time, in Johnny Dio's position or
Johnny Dio getting an interest in the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. I could have been interested in Johnny Dio without
having Johnny Dio in the teamsters union, because Johnny Dio was, as
you said, the manager, and which I didn't know for sure until you
5124 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
told me, was the manager of the cab organization. I don't see
anything unusual about it- personally.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you interested in Jolinny Dio, and Johnny
Dio becoming a part of the teamsters union during this period of
time ? What is your answer to that ?
(At this point Senator Ervin withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA. Will you restate that question, please?
Mr. Kennedy. Were you interested in Johnny Dio and Johnny Dio
becoming a part of the teamsters union during this period of time?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, my answer would be that I was interested in any-
thing that could adjust the matter of the taxicab situation, whether
it was Dio or otherwise.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you interested in that connection, in the ques-
tion that I asked you before, were you interested in tliat connection
of getting Dio into the teamsters union, protecting Dio and getting
Dio into the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. I could have been, if that was necessary to clear up the
cab situation. I couldn't deny the fact that I was interested in clear-
ing up the cab situation. I say that this happened back in 1953 and I
don't recollect all of the activities and discussions that I had concern-
ing it, bvit I know that the situation very definitely was one where we
were attempting to get the UAW out of the taxicab industry into our
organization.
Mr. IvENNEDY. I would like to just point out to you, Mr. Hoffa, that
when I asked you this question originally, you said Mr. Beck had made
the decision, and the date now comes out, of February 9, 1953, that
Mr. Johnny Dio would not be brought into the teamsters union. After
he made that decision, you didn't ask him why and never raised a
question about it again. Now after this tap is played, now you seem
to feel that you might have been interested in getting him into the
teamsters organization.
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, the interpretation you are placing on it
isn't the question or the statement that I made. I want to clear the
record.
(At this point Senators Ives and Ervin entered the hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA. If there is any doubt, there is no question that I was
interested in getting the taxicab organization into our organization.
Insofar as what I did concerning them, I have also stated is vague in
my memory, but I also stated that Dave Beck made a statement in
Florida that Johnny Dio couldn't come into the teamsters. That
wouldn't preclude me from talking to John Dio concerning the cab
organization coming into the teamsters union. I don't think I have
changed my story.
Senator Kennedy. May I ask one question? Had the teamsters
reached a decision at this point before the conversation that the cabs
should be organized by the teamsters ? Had that been the decision of
Mr. Beck?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator Kennedy, our position was that we had a
charter which covered taxicabs and we were desirous of getting it.
But I think that at this particular moment we were trying to avoid a
dual operation in New York concerning cabs. I think that is what
brought about the discussion.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5125
Senator Kennedy. The decision had been reached, I gathered from
this international, that this was a matter that involved the teamsters,
and UAW shoidd come in if they wanted to be in that area, those locals,
and Mr. Dio himself should not come in. Now, we have a case of Mr.
Dio calling you up and seeing if he could get you to prevent the team-
sters from going into these garages that they had been working on, the
taxi drivers they had been working on. That is what I gather.
Mr. HoFFA. But the problem is, Senator, that the matter was still
under discussion and we were endeavoring to straighten out, and I
think that the meetings that we had in this discussion showed that
there were meetings concerning our trying to adjust this problem
between our organization and this organization.
Senator Kennedy. You were going to share the jurisdiction ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. We were trying to get the UAW to relinquish
any of the claim on the jurisdiction. However, I can understand this
conversation because this was between the time of the first meeting
and the last meeting tliat we had concerning this problem.
Senator Kennedy. I gatheied, though, that Mr. Beck made a deci-
sion before that. It seems to me in this case where the teamsters'
jurisdiction was rather clear, that it would have been, it seems to me,
quite questionable as to wliether it was a good idea for you to intervene
to prevent the teamsters from organizing as they sought to do in that
area on a local basis on behalf of Mr. Dio.
Mr. HoFFA. I want to say this, if I may, sir, to try to answer your
question, which I don't think is any different from what I have been
saying, to the effect that the jurisdiction of taxicabs was maintained
at' the beginning and the ending of the argument concerning the
question of whose jurisdiction it was, but the discussion that it took
to finally decide how to go about getting that jurisdiction took several
discussions, and, as I said before, I may have talked to Dio on the
phone. I may have attended meetings which I can't place other than
by recollection. It would seem to me that it is quite normal, that if
you first have a meeting to discuss getting a competitor out of
the field of organizing cabdrivers, that you would not want to
irritate a situation nntil you finally came to a conclusion of trying to
do something to oppose the organization, unless you had to.
I was interested, sir, in trying to get taxicab drivers to organize
taxicabs who understood the business, which I was convinced of that
the executive board of the UAW local, which was comprised of cab-
drivers, from what I had been told, could do the job better than by
just issuing a charter which nothing may come out of. The best
evidence that I was right at that time and right today is that we do
not have a self-sustaining organization of cabdrivers in New York
of any great number.
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, just to conclude, Mr. Strong, a team-
ster, told Mr. Dio that 102 had been wiped off the map, and then Dio
phoned you. In other words, that the teamsters were going to
organize these garages in which they had a proper jurisdiction, and
you have a greed to that.
Then Mr. Dio called you in order to have you intervene with Mr.
Beck. I would think that this would be of 'such great importance,
and this was not the first of a series of curious interrelationships that
existed between you and Mr. Dio which are going to be described
5126 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
tomorrow, that this was the start of this relationship which existed
between you and Mr. Dio. This is the first of a series of related
favors which were done by both of you.
The Chairman. May I ask who is Tom ? He said, "I invited Tom
to dinner," and "I will get the number off Tom." Who is Tom?
Mr. HoFFA. What page is that, sir ?
The Chairman. Page 3.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think I can help you, sir.
The Chairman. It says, "John Strong." It wasn't referring to
Strong.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think it was. It was some Tom, but I don't
know who it could be.
The Chairman. Could it be Tom Ilickey ?
Mr. HoFFA. I just couldn't answer you. But I would like to say
that the
The Chairman. Apparently at that time I would assume if you
didn't know you would have asked who was Tom at the time.
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Wasn't that Tom Flynn ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know if Tom was in the eastern conference at
that time or not. I can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. He was friendly with Mr. Dio, though, wasn't he?
Mr. HoFFA. Didn't the eastern conference start in the latter part
of 1953 rather than the early part? I would have to check. I can't
answer it.
I would like to say that 807, Senator Kennedy, reads "Truck Drivers,
New York, N. Y." It does not give them jurisdiction over cabdrivers.
The Chairman. As the Chair amiounced awhile ago, we cannot
conclude today. The committee has other business. The committee
will stand in recess until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning.
(Thereupon, at 5:07 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 10 : 30 a. m. Thursday, August 22, 1957. )
(Members of the select committee present at the taking of the recess
were : Senators McClellan, Ives, Kennedy, Ervin, McNamara, Mundt,
and Curtis.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
THURSDAY, AUGUST 22, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN THE Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D. C.
The select committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to Senate Reso-
lution 74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the Caucus Room, Senate
Office Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select
committee) presiding.
Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Sena-
tor Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York; Senator Sam J. Ervin,
Jr., Democrat, North Carolina; Senator Pat McNamara, Democrat,
Michigan; Senator Barry Gold water. Republican, Arizona; Senator
Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Senator Carl T. Curtis,
Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, chief assistant counsel; Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel;
Robert E. Dunne, assistant counsel; John Cye Cheasty, assistant
counsel ; Walter R. May, assistant counsel ; Walter Sheridan, assistant
counsel; K. Philip O'Donnell, assistant counsel; Carmine S. Bellino,
accounting consultant; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator; James
Mundie, investigator; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session were Senators McClellan, Ives, and Goldwater.)
The Chairman. The committee will resume its interrogation of
the witness, Mr. Hoffa.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. I wanted to ask you about some of these bills that
were charged to the teamsters during your trial here in Washington.
According to the testimony that we have had, over $8,000 worth
of hotel bills were charged to various teamster organizations. Are
you familiar with that ?
Mr. Hoffa. I am familiar with the fact that certain teamster
representatives were in Washington during the trial period.
Mr. Kennedy. You gave them permission to be here; is that right?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I don't have to give them permission. They are
entitled to come here on their own authority.
5127
5128 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. They were doing union business here ?
Mr. HoFFA. Some union business, and other observations.
Mr. Kennedy. Observation ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Who were they observing ?
Mr.HoFFA. ^lyself.
Mr. Kennedy. And j^ou felt that the teamster union should pay,
for instance, some $1,619.42 for Barney Baker to come here and
observe you?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, my organization — and I am talking now
for my own particular organization- — voted in meetings to spend the
necessary funds in behalf of my defense and expenses in behalf of the
trial. Now, Barney leaker works for the central conference under
my direct orders. If I see fit to assign Baker into Washington tem-
porarilv, I see nothing wrong with it. I have the authority.
Mv. Kennedy. You did assign Baker here then, did you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Xot necessarily. Baker liad authority to come in here,
and make a survey while he was here, and to be here to do whatever
Avas necessary in behalf of the lawyers, running errands, and doing
whatever was needed.
Mr. KJENNi-aJY. Did vou or did vou not assign him here during the
trial?
IVIr. TToFFA. Baker was allowed to come in here and I don't laiow if
I said directly, "Come in here," and I think Barney said he wanted
to come in and I probably said, "All right."
Mr. Kennedy. You gave liim permission to come in here?
Mr. HoFFA. I probably said, "All right."
Mr. Kennedy. And that was some $1,619.42 for him to run errands
for the lawyers ; is that right ?
j\Ir. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, whatever the bill was, we paid it and we
had authority to pay it, and I see nothing wrong with it.
The CnAiR:\rAN. Let me get it straight. Is that $1,600 in the items
that were testified to here yesterday ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes: $1,619.42 was charged to the union, teamsters
union, for Barney Baker. It was charged to the central conference
of teamsters in St. Louis, ]Mo.
Did you know INIr. Baker was thrown off the waterfront for his
type of activities in 1984?
Mr. HoFFA. I listened to Mr. Baker's reputation read by you yes-
terday, and I don't know how many years it goes back, but since Baker
has been with us I don't know of anything he has done except con-
structive work for our organization.
Mr. Kennedy. He has a f)rison record for throwing stink bombs
and injury to property, and referred to in the record of the New York
State Crime Commission as a collector for the Service Collective
Agency, an arrangement whereby large sums of money were obtained
from the public loading racket.
Are you familiar with all of that?
Mr. HoFFA. I am not familiar, except what you read yesterday. I
didn't go into his background, or the history of Baker.
Mr. Kennedy. You wanted him for errands for the lawyers?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't necessarily want him here at all.
IMPROPER ACTIVIT'IES INT THE LABOR FIELD 5129
Mr. Kennp^dy. But he wanted to come and you gave him permission.
Mr. HoFEA. He may have, and I can't recall how he got here, but
if he asked to come here 1 wouldn't object to it.
Mr. Kennedy. It came out of union funds to the total of $1,600.
Mr, HoFFA. We had the authority to do it, under our bylaws.
The Chairman. I^et me ask you a question, Mr. Hoffa.
Were all expenses of the trial paid by union-dues money ?
Mr. Hoffa. I didn't get that, sir.
The Chairman. Were all of the expenses of the trial paid out of
union-dues money ?
Mr. Hoffa. I am paying my own personal lawyer's fee, sir.
The Chairman. But those who attended trial, and who were here
as indicated yesterday by the evidence, their expenses were paid out
of union-dues money ?
Mr. Hoffa. INIany of the individuals here were here to consult with
me concerning union business. I finished negotiations of one contract
during the trial. 1 discussed other contracts with other agents, and
in many instances it is true that the individuals were here who I have
known for a long period of time and they were probably here con-
cerned about my own personal liberties as friends.
It is true, sir, that in many instances the bills were paid by their
unions, and I assume they had the authority as I did from my mem-
bership.
The Chairman. Do you know whether their transportation was
paid to and from Washington ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would assume.
The Chairman. By the union?
Mr. Hoffa. I would assume it was.
The Chairman. Do you Ivuow what unions other than your own
provided these expenditures?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I cannot give you the numbers offhand. Let me
see. Well, I can give you the towns better than the locals, sir.
The Chairman, You can give what ?
Mr. Hoffa. I can give you the cities. I could give you the cities
better tlian the locals that may indicate the individual, but his par-
ticular local I don't think that I can call offhand unless I check the
roster.
The Chatrman. Will you provide this committee with a list of all
expenditures from all locals within the locals and other organizations,
councils or whatever title they may have, within your jurisdiction,
all expenses that were paid for those who came up here during the
course of the trial.
Mr. Hoffa. I lind no objections.
The Chairman. Then you will do that?
Mr. Hoffa. I will.
The Chvirman. That will be provided under oath, and the oidy
question here is whether it is a proper expenditure of union dues or
whether the Congress should want to consider it in that light, whether
it is or it is not. I can appreciate there could be no question if the
union was being sued, or the union's interest was directly involved,
but a question does arise in my mind, at least, and I suppose in the
minds of other members of this committee, as to the validity and pro-
priety of spending union dues for the defense of some union official
5130 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
who may be charged with a crime unrelated to that of the union's
action itself.
For that reason, we want the full record, and report, and we don't
know whether they are true or not.
I have a report that Joe Louis was paid $2,500 for sitting in the
courtroom for 2 hours. Do 3^ou know anything about that?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, if he was paid $2,500, he was not paid by Hoffa.
The Chairman. I didn't say by Hoffa ; I am talking about a union.
Mr. Hoffa. I say I know nothing of it and I don't qualify the state-
ment.
The Chairman. Will you look into that ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Hoffa. I want to say, sir
The Chairman. We will get the expenditures and find out.
Mr. Hoffa. I would like to say. Senator McClellan, you have asked
for a complete list. T will give you one to the best of my ability to
get such a list.
The Chairman. I believe
Mr. Hoffa. I can only get that from the bills and request individ-
uals to give it to me.
The CiiAiR^iAN. I believe if you request it, in the position you
occupy, from the locals and your jurisdiction, it will be forthcoming.
Mr. Hoffa. I am saying from bills, I will, but individuals, if they
spent out of pocket money, I could not give it to you.
The Chairman. That is right. An individual, if he wanted to
spend his own money, you Avould not know about that. I am only
asking for union money.
Mr. Hoffa. All right.
The Chairman. We will proceed.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Hoffa, I would like to inquire a little bit about
the authority for spending this money. What was the authority for
spending money in your defense, union money ?
Mr. Hoffa. In my own particular instance, I called a meeting of
my membership.
Senator Curtis. .'VAHiat organization are you speaking of ?
Mr. Hoffa. Local union 299, sir.
Senator Curtis. When was that meeting held ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Hoffa. Well, it was shortly after the time I was indicted, and
I can't give you the exact month, but shortly after the time I was
indicted.
Senator Curtis. Was it an especially called meeting ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir ; it was a regular meeting and it was as reflected
in the minutes.
Senator Curtis. How many members are there of your local union ?
Mr. Hoffa. Approximately 14,000 members.
Senator Curtis. How many were present at that time ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would assume anywhere from two to three to four, to
five hundred, and I could not remember offhand.
Senator Curtis. Will you examine the minutes and supply that
figure for the record ?
Mr. Hoffa. We do not keep the record of the members who attend
the meetings, and I could not do that.
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5131
Senator Curtis. No record at all is kept of how many people were
there ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, and I see no reason to keep a record.
Senator Curtis. Name a few people who were there and I might
want to inquire of them.
Mr. HoFFA. You say I should name them ?
Senator Curtis, Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I can name the officers who were there but I don't
know if I can name the members who were there.
Senator Curtis, Name the officers,
Mr. HoFFA. All right, Frank Fitzsimmons and Frank Collins,
George Koxburgh, and I believe William Bell.
Senator Curtis. Now name a few who were there besides the
officers.
Mr. HoFFA. Now you are asking me to do something that I cannot
recall from memory.
Senator Curtis. Well, just name a few, name a half dozen.
Mr. HoFFA. I could not recall from memory at this moment who was
at that particular meeting that far back, sir.
Senator Curtis. Where was the meeting held ?
Mr. HoFFA. 2741Trumbly.
Senator Curtis. What will the minutes show as to this matter?
Mr. HoFFA. The minutes will show what transpired at the meeting.
Senator Curits. But I mean in reference to the expenditure of
union funds for your defense ?
Mr. HoFFA. It will show that there was a motion made, seconded, and
voted on.
Senator Curtis. But it will not show how many members were
present ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, it will not.
Senator Curtis. Are notices sent out of meetings? Wliat notice
was sent out with regard to this meeting ?
Mr. HoFFA, Our meetings have not been changed, the meeting dates,
except the time, for a considerable number of years.
All of the members know when the meetings are held and when a
new man is initiated into our union, I believe on the card that is sent
out to notify him to come in for initiation, I believe the time of the
meeting is on the card so that he will know when the meetings are
held.
Senator Curtis. Was there a notice sent out in reference to this
particular meeting ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not a specific notice, no, sir.
Senator Curtis. Now, you do not remember the date of it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Offhand, I couldn't tell you.
Senator Curtis. What hour of the day was it held ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, the carloading meeting starts at 10 o'clock in the
morning, and the freight meeting, I believe, starts at 7 o'clock at night
and the over-the-road meeting at 12 o'clock on Sunday.
Senator Curtis. Which meeting was this taken up at ?
Mr. HoFFA. The three meetings, sir.
Senator Curtis. Three meetings?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. They met at their regular hours ?
89330— 57— pt. 13 14
5132 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. There was no change in the time and I instructed the car
haul meeting to take it up and I am quite confident he did, and I
took it up I believe myself personally at the city cartage and road
and I am quite sure I took it up with both and I will check the minutes
to make sure and if you want minutes I will give you copies of the
minutes.
Senator Curtis. I would like to have copies of those minutes.
Mr. HoFFA. You have it, sir.
Senator Curtis. And I would like to have you, by discussing it with
your friends and reconstructing the best you can, to provide me with
the names of as many members that were present that you can recall.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right, IMr. Kennedy, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. I notice here on July 19 he received $175.90 in cash.
That is from the Woodner Hotel. Could you tell the committee what
that would have been for ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell you what it was for.
Mr. Kennedy. It was paid out to Mr. Bobby Baker.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know wliat it was for.
Mr. Kennedy. Is he a big man, Mr. Baker ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I would say a little over 300.
Mr. Kennedy. I see, for instance, a restaurant; they charged the
local $65.72, so he eats a lot, too, I guess.
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine over a period of time.
Mr. Kennedy. That was one meal.
]Mr. HoFFA. It is just possible that he picked up the checks of some
indi riduals or had a particular reason. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. What about William Bufalino. His bill was
charged to the union, $914.89.
Mr. HoFFA. What about it ?
Mr. Kennedy, ^^^lat was he here for? Was he here running er-
]-ands for the lawyers, too ?
Mr. HoFFA. Bufalino is a lawyer, as well as being a business repre-
sentative.
Mr. Kennedy. You were consulting with him ?
Mr. HoFFA. And Bufalino was here representing his organization
as Bill Bufalino, and he was here consulting with the lawyers and
doing whatever he could do.
Mr. Kennedy. $914.89 worth.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't see anything odd about it.
Senator Curtis. Did you personally pay him for his legal fees ?
Mr. HoFFA. He did not represent me at this trial, sir, as my personal
lawyer.
Senator Curtis. Did you pay him ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is a lawyer that has been retained by my organiza-
tion; yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you pay him out of your personal funds ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was not representing me personally in this case, and
so I had no reason to pay him personally out of this case.
Senator Curtis. Then the answer is that you did not pay him
personally ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not for this case, I did not.
INIr. Kennedy. Who was he representing, then ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5133
Mr. HoFFA. I told you, lie was representing his own organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Legally?
Mr. HoFFA. He was in here representing his organiaztion in what-
ever capacity he deemed necessary at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. To give you legal advice ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was not my lawyer, and he consulted with the other
lawyers, and did whatever they thought was necessary, but they will
have to explain that, and I can't.
Mr. Kennedy. You mean he was there in case Edward Bennett
Williams needed some advice, and he would go to William Bufalino
of the jukebox local?
Mr. HoFFA. I did not saj^ Edward Bennett Williams, and he may
have worked with Mr. Williams, and I could not tell you. I don't
loiow.
Mr. Kennedy. He is head of the jukebox local ; isn't he ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is, that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. What attorneys here in Washington were consult-
ing with Mr. William Bufalino, head of the juke box local, for legal
advice ?
Mr. PIoFFA. Mr. Bufalino was probably consulting with them as
I stated, and I did not say they were consulting with him.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he giving them advice ?
Mr. HoFFA. You will have to ask him.
Mr. Kennedy. You are the one who is testifying and you said he
is here because he is a lawyer.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he giving them advice ?
Mr. HoFFA. You will have to ask him and he will tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't have any recollection of discussing with me
the question of who he was giving advice to.
Mr. Kennedy. I notice that he charged to the union on July 13,
$1.35 for a shoe shine. Do you know anything about that?
Mr. HoFFA. I would suggest that he answer the question.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know anything about these charges. Is
that a legitimate union expense, out of union funds ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would suggest to you that when you travel for this
committee that you charge all of your expenses to the committee, and
I assume that anybody else traveling charges the necessary money for
expense.
Mr. Kennedy. You are wrong.
Mr. HoFFA. Everybody don't have the money that you have.
The Chairman. 1 do not believe that we have $1,600,000.
Mr. HoFFA. I think that they have a million, sir.
The Chairman. What is that ?
Mr. HoFFA, I think Mr. Kennedy has a million, from what I read.
Mr. Kennedy. I hope so.
The Chairman. Are you talking about him or the committee?
Mr. HoFFA. I am reading about him.
The Chairman. It is not the committee. Keep the record straight,
and proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. What about local 743 ? Did they have a representa-
tive here, too, that is, Mr. Peters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Don Peters was here himself.
5134 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. He was here?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And did the local make arrangements for Mr. Peters
to come?
Mr. HoFFA. Don Peters was in and out, and twice when he was here
he came here to discuss with me Montgomery Ward's contract under
serious consideration at that time in an endeavor to avoid a strike
which we did.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the only reason he was here ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. While he was here, he stayed and observed
the trial.
Mr. Kennedy. Did local 743 pass a resolution to send Mr. Peters
here?
Mr. HoFFA. I could not answer that, and I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know of any other local that passed any
resolution other than 299?
Mr. HoFFA. I never asked anyone and I would not know.
Mr. Kennedy. For instance, Mr. Bufalino's local, 985, of the juke-
boxes, did they pass any resolution that they could spend $914.89 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think Mr. Bufalino would have to answer that ques-
tion, Mr. Kenned3\
Mr. Kennedy. He had some difficulty with this law a couple of years
ago, himself, didn't he ?
Mr. HoiTA. He had a trial, and he was found innocent.
Mr. Kennedy. That was for extortion ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe he was tried for that, and the jury found him
innocent.
Mr. Kennedy. Who paid that bill.
Mr. HoFFA. We did.
Mr. Kennedy. The union ?
Mr. HoFFA. The joint council assisted in paying the bill, and I
believe maybe his local did, and I do not know exactly who paid all of
the bills, but we certainly assisted him.
Mr. Kennedy. How much approximately was that?
Mr. HoFFA. I could not tell you offhand, and I don't know. It
was a considerable amount of money.
The Chairman. I believe that you should supply that along with
the others, since the Congress will want to consider this, as to whether
it is an improper practice, an improper expenditure of money, so you
may supply that, too.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator McClellan, I believe that you have some of the
checks now, and I will give you the rest of them.
Mr. Kennedy. We have a check here dated August 15, 1953, to
joint council 43, for $5,000.
Mr. HoFFA. It was more than that, I can assure you, unfortunately.
Mr. Kennedy. And it was local union 337. Did each of the locals
contribute to that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe so. I don't know. I don't know whether all
of the locals did or not, but some locals did. I could not qualify the
statement so far as all of them,
Mr. Kennedy. Was that taken up with the membership ?
Mr. HoFFA. That I cannot tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. There is nothing in the minutes about it, is there?
IMPROPER ACnVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD 5135
Mr. HoFFA. I did not read the minutes, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. There is nothing in the minutes of local 337 giving
permission to spend $5,000 for the defense of Mr. William Bufalino.
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, I could not give you the answer.
The Chairman. Let us get this check in the record. Do you iden-
tify this check, Mr. Hoffa ?
(Document handed to counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. We understand the local contributed $5,000, and we
believe 227, Mr. Hoffa would have the information, they contributed
also $5,000.
Mr. Hoffa. I did not get the question.
The Chairman. Do you identify the check?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit 170.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 170" for refer-
ence, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5286.)
The Chairman. Counsel made a statement as to information that
the committee has, and he can ask the question.
Mr. Kennedy. We understand your own local, 299, contributed
$5,000 to Mr. Buf alino's defense.
Mr. Hoffa. I would not be surprised, but I would not want to make
a positive statement until I check the record.
Mr. Kennedy. And 247 contributed $5,000.
Mr. Hoffa. I would not be surprised but I want to check the record.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know any other local who contributed?
Mr. Hoffa. Offhand I don't at this moment, but I will do what the
Chair instructed me to do.
Mr. Kennedy. Is Mr. Angelo Meli related to Mr. Bufalino.
Mr. lIoFFA. I believe he is an uncle by marriage.
Mr. Kennedy. Is he a friend of yours ?
Mr. Hoffa. I have known him for a considerable number of years,
in the city of Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the one that has been charged twice with
murder.
Mr. Hoffa. Was he charged, you say ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I have read various incidents in the paper, and I
can't recall, but someone was recently killed in an airplane, and his
son was killed in the Army flying a jet, while flying a jet for the Army.
Mr. I^nnedy. Do you know anything about him? He is your
friend.
Mr. Hoffa. Not necessarily. I did not say that. You asked me
did I know him and I know him as an acquaintance. When I see him
in a restaurant or see him in the street or wherever I would see him,
I would recognize the man.
Mr. Kennedy. A couple of times were armed robbery, and a couple
of times were murder. Are you familiar with that?
Mr. Hoffa. I didn't check his record, and I think it has been dis-
played in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Who is the man?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Angelo Meli, who I understand is a friend of
Mr. Hoffa, and is related to Mr. William Bufalino, who runs the
jukebox local, local 985 of the teamsters, and Mr. Bufalino took the
5136 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
jukebox local over from Jiminie James, wliicli Mr. James Hoffa
started originally.
The Citair:man. What I am tryino; to get at is where is any relation
between this man now and the labor union?
Mr. Kkxxedy. He is just a friend of Mr. Hoffa.
The Chairman. Let us get on to something else.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Mr. DeLamielleure ?
Mr. Hoffa. He is a private investigator, privately with the Detroit
Police Department for a period of 25 years, now on retirement.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the teamsters make arrangements for him to
come here?
]Mr. Hoffa. I personally did.
Mr. Kennedy. You did ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir,
Mr. Kennedy. And he was to be paid out of teamster funds?
iSIr. Hoffa. I believe we paid his expenses.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, now, his hotel bill was charged to the teamsters.
Mr. Hoffa. If it was charged, we paid it. At least, we will.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Mr. Kehoe?
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Kehoe is an attorney from Miami, Fla.
Mr. Kennedy. And some of his bills were charged to the teamsters.-
Mr. Hoffa. I believe his expenses were.
Mr. Kennedy. What does he do down in Miami, Fla. ?
IVIr. Hoffa. He is an attorney.
]Mr. Kennedy. Was he brought up for consultation or what ?
Air. Hoffa. I believe Mr. Fitzgerald brought him up for consulta-
tion.
Mr. Kennedy. To get his advice?
Mr. Hoffa. On some particular issue, and I am not sure which.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know anything about that?
Mr. Hoffa. ATr. Fitzgerald could answer, and I don't believe I
could.
Mr. Ivennedy. You don't have any idea why he was brought up?
Mr. Hoffa. I said for consultation. Now, legal discussions that
would be.
Mr. Kennedy'. Did he used to work out in Detroit?
Mr. HoFF. In Pontiac.
Mr. Kennedy. With the grand jurj^ out tiiere?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't think so. He was with the prosecutor's ofl5ce..
He was chief investigator.
]Mr. Kennedy. He was with them.
Mr. Hoffa. With the prosecutor's office, chief investigator.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he the chief investigator when the prosecutor
was investigating you, with the grand jury ?
Mr. Hoffa. I did not know I was being investigated in Pontiac.
Mr. Kennedy. You never heard of that ?
Mr. Hoffa. I was not called in front of a grand jur}-, at least, and
I can't recall it.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they investigating the teamsters at that time ?
Mr. Hoffa. I can't recall whether they were or not, and I don't
Ivnow. It does not seem to me that they were.
Mr. Kennedy. The Callahan grand jury, and Mr. Kehoe had noth-
ing to do with that ?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't believe he did.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES m THE LABOR FIELD 5137
Mr. Kennedy. He never liad anything to do witli it?
Mr. HoFFA. I am not positive, unless they hired him in some capac-
ity I don't know about.
Mr. Kennedy. But you don't know anything about it yourself?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe he worked with theni.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever have any discussions with him about
the grand jury?
Mr. HoFFA. I may have had that.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if he worked for the grand jury or
with the grand jury ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe he worked with the grand jury.
Mr, Kennedy. Can you give me an unequivocal answer, or are you
going to say "I don't think'' ?
Mr. HoFFA. He would work for them, and he would not tell me.
Mr. Kennedy. I am just asking what you knew.
Mr. HoFFA. I am not in a position Vhere I can say something I
don't know,
Mr. Kennedy. I am asking you what you knew.
Mr, HoFFA. I will make the statement I did not know he worked for
the Callahan grand jury, if that is what you want.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not know he had any connection with that
grand jury in its investigation?
Mr. HoFFA, Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. liobert Hohnes was there ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, What local did he represent ?
Mr. HoFFA. 337.
Mr. Kennedy. And the bills were charged to the teamsters for
him of $255.G9. What was he here for ?
Mr, HoFFA, Well, Bob and I started to work in the warehouse
some twenty-odd years ago for 32 cents an hour. Bob was prob-
ably here to observe what was going on, in the trial, so he could
re])ort back to his local union.
Mr. Kennedy. And do you know if the union gave permission for
those bills?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you offhand. I believe the bylaws
gives him authority.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, it is not in the minutes.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe the bylaws gives him the authority.
Mr. Kennedy. Just general authority to travel where he wants?
Mr. HoFFA, I think he has the same authority that I have, I be-
lieve a copy of the bylaws
Mr, Kennedy, But he wasn't given specific permission?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you offhand.
Mr. Hennedy. You don't know specifically ?
Mr. HoFFA. I couldn't tell you specifically.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Martha Jefferson?
Mr. HoFFA. She was an attorney.
Mr. Kennedy. Who made the arrangements for her to come?
Mr. HoFFA. She came here on her own. She was an attorney that
we were using for the purpose of drafting briefs, and she appeared
here on her own. When she came here, I believe we paid her hotel
bill for one night, George tells me.
5138 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. IvENNEDY. No otlier expenses? Nothing else was paid for
her?
Mr. HoFFA. At that time I don't believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. She just came on her own? Nobody asked her
to come?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I was rather surprised she was here.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, but do you know if anybody asked her to
come?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Curtis, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question at
that point.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. She was hired by Mr. Fitzgerald and Mr. Fitzgerald
tells me that he didn't ask her to come in. So I cannot malce a state-
ment as to what brought her here, except that I imagine she wanted
to see how some of the advice she had given to briefs was standing
Mr. Kennedy. She was hired in connection with this case by Mr.
Fitzgerald ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. In April, I guess. April, I guess.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. March or April, George tells me.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Fitzgerald went to Los Angeles to get an at-
tomej^ to write briefs in connection with this trial ?
Mr. HoFFA. There is a very peculiar law in California, that we
were very much interested in being briefed.
Mr. Kennedy. And then you had Mr. Hurst here also?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, before you leave this Jeffer-
son
Mr. HoFFA. Martha Jeffereon.
Senator Curtis. Did she sit in at your trial at the counsel table?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. I believe she was in the audience.
Senator Curtis. She was in the audience.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Curtis. And these briefs that she wrote were in refer-
ence to a matter for which you were being tried ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think Mr. Fitzgerald could explain that, but they
were in reference to certain peculiar laws in California which I have
no knowledge of. It was a legal question, and the attorneys handled
it.
Senator Curtis. Well, did it relate to your defense or was it other
matters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I believe it was related to my particular case.
Senator Curtis. Well, now, there appeared in the press pictures
of this lady lawyer as one of your defense counsel, along with — I
believe you were in the picture and so was Mr. Williams. That was
not correct, was it?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. George tells me, if you want to get a legal descrip-
tion, that she could be considered as part of legal counsel but not
participating in the actual trial, insofar as sitting at the counsel
table was concerned.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5139
Senator Curtis. I gathered from seeing it in the papers, your
posing with her in this picture, that she was conducting the defense,
or part of it.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I am not responsible. I saw the articles.
Senator Curtis. Did you see the picture ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I saw the picture. It was in most of the papers.
Senator Curtis. And you were there when it was taken?
Mr. HoFFA. I had to be.
(At this point. Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. But at that time did you consider her one of your
defense counsel ?
Mr. HoFFA. I never gave it any thought, frankly, until you
brought it up.
Senator Curtis, That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. You were the one that brought it up. You said
she was here as an attorney, Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Hoffa. Out of response to a question that you proposed.
Mr. Kennedy. We asked why she was here, and you said that
she came here as an attorney in your defense.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I had to give you the answer that you requested.
Otherwise, the Chair would have directed me to.
Mr. Kennedy. I am asking for the truth.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, you got it.
Mr. Kennedy. She was here as a defense attorney ?
Mr. Hoffa. The description of Mr. Fitzgerald, he said you could
have applied that to her employment in this particular case. I can
only say what he said.
The Chairman. She is an attorney, she was here as an attorney, at
the request of your attorney, one of your attorneys, assisting in the
preparation of material for the defense in the trial, is that correct?
Mr. Hoffa. I think that is correctly stated, sir.
The Chairman. There is no question about that is the purpose of
her being here. All right.
Mr. K!ennedy. Was she paid out of union funds ?
(The witness conferred with his coimsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir, you could say that.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did she receive ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Chairman, we are willing to disclose that to
the investigators, but I don't think that an attorney's fees should be
placed on the record like this. If there is any question about it, it
would be different.
The Chairman. Well, just a moment.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I will do anything you say, but
The Chairman. Any of Mr. Hoffa's personal funds or not union
funds that he may have paid out, I do not think this committee could
have any legal interest in them. But any moneys paid out in the
course of this trial out of union dues is a proper subject of inquiry.
Mr. Fitzgerald. You misunderstood me, I think, Mr. Chairman.
I am not objecting to disclosing it to the committee. I am not
objecting to it on that ground. I feel that the committee is entitled
to it.
5140 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I mean the amount, I think when it involves the attorney, I think
the amount — well, to save the mystery of it, I can advise Mr. Hoffa.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. We do not want any mystery. That is why I
wanted it on the record.
Mr. Hoffa. I am informed, Mr. Kennedy, that somewhere in the
neighborhood of $1,300.
Mr. Kennedy. $1,300?
Mr. Hoffa. Somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,300.
Mr. Kennedy. And she wrote a brief, did she?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Wrote a brief and also came to Detroit to consult with
Mr. Fitzgerald.
Mr. Kennedy. That is $1,300 exclusive of her travel expenses?
Mr. Hoffa. No, George thinks that that includes the travel expenses
also.
The Chairman. AAHien you submit the other information, submit
the full information about her expenses.
The committee is only interested in union money.
Mr. Hoffa has a right to hire counsel and pay whatever he wants
to. In that instance, I am on the side of counsel. I want them to get
paid.
But in this instance, where union money is being spent, there is a
question of propriety about it.
The committee will proceed to inquire.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Miat about Byron Hurst? AVliat was he up here
for?
Mr. PIoFFA. Again, Mr. Fitzgerald can answer the question better
than I can. For some reason, he was consulting with Mr. Fitzgerald.
I can't give you the answer.
The Chairman. Just a minute. Mr. Fitzgerald has been sworn.
Do you say you have no knowledge of why he was here ?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't say no knowledge, sir. T couldn't tell you — I
know he was here consulting with Mr. Fitzgerald, but I am not aware,
and couldn't tell you, of all the consultations they had. So I am at a
loss to answer the question other than to say that he was here for con-
sultation purposes.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, I want the information.
The Chairman. You say that you do not have the full information
about it ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir, I say that he was here for consultation. That
is the best answer I can give you.
The Chairman. He was here as a lawyer in the case for consultation
purposes ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
The CHAiR:NrAN. Mr. Fitzgerald — well, let me ask you first.
Was he paid out of union funds?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Let me find out, will you?
The Chairman. All right.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Senator McClellan, I can only say that there was some
expenses paid, but Mr. Fitzgerald tells me that they haven't arrived
IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5141
at the fee schedule, and he is not quite sure whether or not it has been
paid.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
The Chairman. Mr. Fitzgerald, you have been previously sworn.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. What are the facts regarding Mr. Hurst?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Well, Mr. Hurst was hired by me or retained by
me without a retainer being paid. I have known Mr. Hurst. I think
sometime prior to June — no, no. Well, I can't give you the exact date.
Mr. Plurst was not paid anything by the union. I have a letter in my
office from Mr. Hurst in which he was not concerned with any retainer
iee, but he stated he would like to have his expenses paid.
So far we haven't even paid the expenses, to my knowledge.
Mr. HoFFA. We paid some of them, sir.
Mr. Fitzgerald. He paid a hotel bill at the Woodner himself, I be-
lieve, part of it, and there is another bill at the Woodner which has
not been paid, I don't believe. Maybe some of it has been paid.
The Chairman. The point is, and you appreciate this, you know
what we are trying to determine here, not just on Mr. Hurst but cover-
ing the whole area. As I understand you now, you expect to pay Mr.
Hurst?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Well, we may pay Mr .Hurst. Mr. Hurst has been,
since this matter arose — let me put it this way : Mr. Hurst, I know.
Mr. Hurst is a fine attorney. Mr. Hurst I consulted, without the
payment of any retainer.
Some question has arisen from a newspaper columnist about Mr.
Hurst's employment, and Mr. Hurst is very touchy on the subject,
and I don't think Mr. Hurst even Avants to be ]);iid a fee in the
matter because of that.
I think it was very unfair for the newspapers to handle it that way.
However, that is the situation.
Senator, I don't know if he wants a fee; he will be paid.
The Chairman. Tlie only point I am concerned about is : Is he
going to be paid out of union funds ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Well, I don't know that, whether he would accept
it out of union funds or not. But if he wants to be paid, I will pay it.
It will be paid.
The Chairman. Then we get back to this.
You are going to pay it ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is right.
The Chairman. Are you going to in turn bill the union ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't think so in this particular matter, because
I think Mr. Hurst feels in this case that he has been treated somewhat
unfairly by at least some of the press on it.
The Chairman. Well, you appreciate that will have to be an
issue between Mr. Hurst and the press.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is right.
The Chairman. I am not responsible for that.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I appreciate that.
Senator Curtis. "\Yliere does Mr. Hurst live ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. In Hot Springs, Ark.
Senator Curtis. How long have you known him ?
5142 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD-
Mr. FrrzGERiVLD. For a considerable number of years. Some long
time.
Senator Curtis. Does he liave any law j^artners ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't know that. I don't know what his ar-
rangement is. I don't kno"\v' if he has an association or partnership.
Senator Curtis. Who is in his office, if you do not know the arrange-
ment.
Mr. Fitzgerald, I don't know that. I wouldn't exactly know. I
know he has an office in Plot Springs. I have never been in his office.
I know his telephone number and his home number.
Senator Curtis. Who was the presiding judge in this trial?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Judge Matthews.
Senator Curtis. Do you know whether Judge Matthews has any
near relative that is closely associated if not a partner with Mr.
Hurst?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Well, I don't know, of my own knowledge, and
I don't think it is very fair to a Federal judge of Judge Matthews'
standing to even inject such a question into this.
Senator Curtis. I do not think Judge Matthews did it.
Mr. Fitzgerald, Then I don't think that I, as an attorney. Senator,
would even think of approaching a person who sat on a Federal
bench with any improper motives or hire an attorney to do such a
thing.
Senator Curtis. I am not suggesting the slightest impropriety.
I want to inquire concerning persistent reports.
If they are not true, I would like to have it stated.
Mr. FiTZGERAij). What are the reports. Senator?
If the Chair please, I question the pertinency of this.
However, I don't want it to be shrouded in mystery, either.
The Chairman. The only pertinency this has, as I have stated, is
the question of a payment of a fee.
The Senator's nuestion goes to the purpose of his employment.
I certainly would not want to reflect on Judge Matthews. I have
the highest regard for her.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Certainly. I assure you there will be no union
money used in the payment of the fee. So there will be no question
about it.
Senator Curtis, Have you hired Mr. Hurst in any previous cases?
Mr. Fitzgerald, Well
(The witnesses conferred.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't recall, and I don't think it is pertinent,,
Senator. I don't actually recall.
(At this point. Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis, That is all,
Mr, Kennedy. In that connection, had you hired Mrs, Jefferson
in any other cases ?
Mr, Fitzgerald. No, let us clear that question up. The law of
California on the doctrine
Mr. Kennedy. Just answer the question if you liad or if you had
not,
Mr. Fitzgerald. No.
The Chairman. Proceed.
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5143
TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEOEGE S. FITZGEKALD— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Brennan was here, also ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was.
Mr^ Kennedy. And he charged a bill of $422.03 to the union. Do
you know anything about that ? Excuse me, it is $112.64.
Mr. HoFFA. Did Joe issue a check or did Joe pay it 'i
Mr. Kennedy. What is that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Did Joe issue a check from the union or did Joe pay
the bill?
Mr. Kennedy. It was teamster money according to the record we
liave.
Mr. HoFFA. I assumed he paid it by his local union and I could
not tell you whether he had authority or not.
Mr. Kennedy. What was he here for ?
Mr. HoFFA. George has been my friend since I came into the team-
sters union and he came here and I imagine he was here to make a
report back to his members vtIio are very interested in the fact as to
what the outcome of the trial would be concerning myself, because
they would be affected by the lack of advice from some unfortunate
thing that would happen.
Mr. Kennedy. He was here just to keep the membership advised
•on how things were going with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. HoFFA. I imagine for his own personal satisfaction, and I
can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. If it was his own personal satisfaction, is the $112.64
■of union funds for his own personal satisfaction ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I stated there is no use trying to change it, he would
want to make a report back to his members, to keep them advised, and
the only way he could do it would probably be to be here and also in
getting some satisfaction out of it.
(At this point. Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Richard Kavner, he was here, also. What was he
here for, $469.89 ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was in here for several reasons. Eichard Kavner
has quite a few responsibilities and he was here to consult with myself
•on several of those problems and he was also during a period of time,
he was here when I was occupied in court. He was in court listening
to testimony.
Mr. Kennedy. He came a number of different times, did he not?
Mr. HoFFA. He would normally have to come in to consult with
myself concerning area happenings going on at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. Where is he from ?
Mr. HoFFA. St. Louis, his home.
Mr. KiJNNEDY. He came in on June 28 and you and he left the city.
Mr. HoFFA. Where did we go ?
Mr. Kennedy. He left on the 28th and you went home, did you
not?
Mr. HoFFA. If you say we did, if you have the dates, all right.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it impossible to consult by telephone or consult
in the Midwest ?
Mr. Hoffa. By the way you are tapping telephones, I don't know
if a man should consult on the telephones, because it might be mis-
construed.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, this committee has tapped no tele-
phones.
5144 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I am talking about various State regulations, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Have j^ou ever tapped or had any tapped yourself ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Just a moment, if the court please — I am sorry, I
mean Mr. Chairman, this is a matter under which there is a matter
pending in New York.
The Chairman. The Chair will rule that that question is improper
as asked and if asked if he has tapped telephones in connection with
labor transaction.., that question would be pertinent.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, the only question I — the reason I brought it
up at all, I might say, is the statement of Mr. Ploli'a. But if you want
me to rephrase it
The Chairman. The question can only be asked this way: Did
Mr. Hoffa or has Mr. Ilotfa in the operation of the union's affairs, re-
sorted to the action or act of tapping telephones.
That is the only thing that would be proper.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair for a moment?
Mr. Hoffa is now under indictment in the New York district court.
Federal court, on a charge of conspiracy to tap telephones or to violate
section 605. Now, I think
The Chairman. Let me ask the question, is that in connection, or
is that tapping in connection with union business ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Well, it is a New York indictment. Senator, and
I cannot without going into all of the facts in the matter, I could not
reach a conclusion. I actually do not think so. I actually do not
think so. It does not involve
Mr. Ivennedy. Actually, I am not interested in pressing it, and the
only thing is that IMr. Hoft'a brought the subject up, and I had not in-
tended to discuss it.
The Chairman. I do not think that this committee should go into
the pending case and it would not be proper.
The witness is not here as a defendant. He is not on trial before
this committee for that act, or alleged act. But, if there is a practice
among labor leaders of tapping telephones in the carrying on of union
business, that would be pertinent to this inquiry, of course.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, we have here a bill of $21.66 of Mr. Louis.
Do you have any information on that ?
Mr. Hoffa. I listened to Mr. Bellino's explanation yesterday, that
he checked on it and that might be the explanation.
Mr. Ivennedy. What is the explanation of $21.66 which you sent
to the union ?
Mr. Hoffa. I understood Mr. Bellino to say yesterday or the day
before that somebody paid it, or they were reimbursed or something
of that description.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know that for a fact ?
Mr. Hoffa. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Louis said when we interviewed him that he
had not, that he expected to, although one of the gentlemen from the
teamsters union said that he had received the money. Do you know
anything about that?
Mr. Hoffa. Only from what Mr. Bellino made in his report and
I couldn't report otherwise on the question.
The Chairman. Since we are on that, let us find out a little more
about it, if you can tell us.
W^ho arranged for Joe Louis to come here? He is not a lawyer.
IMPEOPEiR ACnVrriES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5145
Mr. HoFFA. We intended to have several character witnesses in my
particular case. It was under discussion by the lawyers as to whether
or not we should or should not have them. We decided on several
individuals, to use them for the purpose of standby or for them to
come in on the question of having character witnesses.
I believe that I talked, and again I am trying to recollect because
those were rather hectic days, I believe that I talked — just a moment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. The lawyer tells me, and they were the ones who dis-
cussed the question, as regards character witnesses. I discussed the
question and I believe with several of our fellows concerning whether
or not we should have character witnesses.
Now, as I say, those were hectic days and I don't recall all of the
conversation, and George tells me that probably I am wrong in my
trying to refresh my memory in regard to him coming in for that pur-
pose. I don't know.
But in any event, he was here. I have known him for quite a while,
and he was probably here as more friendship than anything else. I
am not actually in the position to give you the full details.
Mr. Kennedy. In that connection, our records show that Mr. Louis
came in here on June IG. That was long before any character witnesses
would have been put on trial by the defense.
Mr. HoFFA. We were trying to discuss whether or not we would.
I don't know, as I say, I don't want to get tied down to the question
of specifically what he was here for, and I can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know why he was here '(
Mr. HoFFA. I met liim in court. I met him in the hotel, and he was
my friend, and exactly what the purpose was, how he got here and
whether he had other business, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know what Mr. Dorfman had to do with it?
Mr. TIoFFA. He is a very good friend of Joe Louis, and I don't know
exactly whether or not he had much to do with it or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know why Mr. Barney Baker made arrange-
ments to have Joe Louis' bill paid by the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Barney was a fighter at one time, and I think Barney
knows Joe Louis quite well.
Mr. Kennedy. That is why he made arrangements for the team-
sters to pay the bill ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know whether he made arrangements for that,
and Barney could liave done it as a friend.
Mr. Kennedy. The record shows, as a friend he is not charging it
to his own bill, he is charging it to the teamsters.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know if it was charged or not. I thought you
said it was charged to Joe Louis.
Mr. Kennedy. It was charged to the teamsters.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, now, I thought, or I had read somewhere it was
charged to Joe Louis.
Mr. Kennedy. It was charged $21.66, hotel bill was charged to the
teamsters union.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't have the answer.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know why Mr. Louis was calling Martha
Jefferson from the hotel ?
Mr. HoFFA. They may know each other, and I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversation about it?
5146 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
Mr. IIoFFA. Geor<2;e tells mo that they are friends.
Mr. KuNNKDY. Dill you know he was callinj^ her or (aJkinj; to
her?
Mr. IIoFKA. I wonhliTt have any knowledge.
Mr. IvKNNEnY. Jle <li(hri mention that to yon?
Mr. lloFFA. lie didn't mention it to me that 1 recall.
Mr. Kknnedy. I want to i^o back into your relationship with Mr.
Johnny I)io. Wo are goini2:T)ack to the early part of 11)5-'L Did you
<^et to know him faii'ly well durin<^ that pei'iod ol' time, tlio early
partoflOr)^?
Mr, lIoKFA. 1 <2;otto know him, and I don't, know how well.
Mr. Kknnkdy. When these ell'orts were beiuii; made by you to <»et
the UAW-AFL or<2^anization into the teamsters union, what posi-
tion was Mr. Dio takin<i^? Was ho agreeing with you ?
Mr. lioFFA. No, as 1 said yesterday, Mr. Dio would have liked to
have continued on having the cabs organized in the UAW. They
would liave liked to have them oi'ganized.
Mr. IVKNTNEUY. llo WOulll wluit ?
Mr. lloFFA. As I said yesterday, Mr. Dio would have liked to
have continued organizing the cabs in UAW-AFL.
Mr. Kennedy. You were on one side and he was on the other; is
that right?
Mr. IIoFFA. At the beginning. That is why the meeting was
arraTiged.
Mr. Kennedy. That is why the meeting was arranged in New
York ?
Mr. 1I(U''FA. In Florida, lirst.
Mr. Kennedy. And subsequently in New York?
Mr. IIoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And he still disagreed with you?
Mr. IToFFA. Well, as I stated, Mr. Doria was in the meeting in
New York, and Mr. Doria being the president and he had the au-
thority to make the decision. They were attempting to woi'k out
the solutions to the i)j-oblem. As I said yesterday, I don't recall Mr.
Dio taking (piite as active part of the discussion as he would normally
do i f he was alone.
Mr. Kennedy, Well, at this time, was he at this time opposing the
UAW, his whole organization goii\g into the teamsters?
Mr. IIoFFA. No, as I said yesterday, the primary discussion was as
to whether or not we would take in their organization as it was then
existing.
Mr. Kennedy. Without him?
Mr. IIoFFA. Take in the oflicers.
Mr. Kennedy. Who were the officers?
Mr. IIoFFA. As I told you, I can only recall one name, and only
then because it was refreshed on someone making a statement, a
man named Norton, and T kind of remember tlie name Norton.
Mr. Kennedy. What is there about the organization that you don't
even kno\v the names or just vaguely i-emember one officer, and what
was it about the organization that appealed to you, if it wasn't in
Dio's operations?
Mr. lIoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, T believe that almost every organization,
including the mine workers, district 50, tried to organize the cab-
drivers in New York. And T don't think there was ever an organ-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5147
izatioii started in the cab business. There was a strike and it was
unsuccessful, il' 1 recall.
1 believe, and 1 believe today, that if we would have taken in then
a nucleus that they had started with the oHicers who 1 understood were
cabdrivers, we would probably have an organization of 30,000 new
members in New York today.
Mr, Kennkdy'. You understood that Mr. Dio was responsible for
whatever activity they had liatl, or whatever success tiiey had had?
Mr. lloFFA. Well, I wouldn't cojitribute any one man with suc(;ess
in any organizing drive.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, you knew he Avas responsible for the local,
did you not'^
Mr. lloFFA. I don't know whether he was or not. I believe some-
body said he was the term manager. 1 don't think he was an oilicer.
Mr, Kennedy. Mr. lloll'a, that does not make any sense.
Mr. ILoFFA. Why doesn't it'^
Mr. Kennedy. On Kebiuary 9 you testified yesterday you made
arrangements for a meeting in Miami, Fla.
Mr, iloFFA. Through Tony iJoria.
Mr. Kennedy. And you made arrangements for Johnny Dio to
come down and meet in Aliiimi, Fla.
Mr. lIoKFA, 1 did not say that. I said Doria did,
Mr. Kennedy, And you said thi'ough the arrangements that yon
talked (o fJohnny Dio al)oiit it.
Mr. lloFFA. .just a inoment. There were several conversations
yesterday and if my recollection serves me right from yesterday,
Doria arranged to have Dio, 1 believe, come to Florida to discuss the
question, and then we met in New York and rediscussed the question
with both of them present.
Mr. Kennedy. Once you got down to Florida, then, and Dio was
there rei)reseiiting the cabdrivers, you must have miderstood then
that Dio was the one who was responsible for the cab organization.
Mr, lloFFA, Not necessarily, because 1 understood that Dio was
somewhat in charge ot" the New York situation for the UAW-AFL.
So it woidd not surprise me if it being a division or a charter of the
UAW-AFL that he could become involved in that particular
discussion,
Mr. Jvennedy. Well, now, he was not kee])ing you advised as to
how he was doing with his organizational drive with the <axicabs?
Mr. lIoFFA. I don't know if he did or not. I may liave discussed
it. I can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. You camiot remember that i
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You cannot remember now wluit position Dio had
with ihe (axicab drive in New York. Is that what you are testify-
ing to before this connnittee 'i
Mr. lloFFA. I am saying that I do not recall to the best of my
recollection, a discussion of that subject. I may have had it. He
may have told me. I don't recall.
Mr, Kennedy, Mr, Hotra, I am not asking you just about one dis-
cussion, I am saying that you met and discussed with Mr, Dio a
number of dill'ei-ent times in this })ei-io(l of time.
89330— 57— pi. 13 15
5148 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN TPIE' LABOR FIELD
Senator Ives pointed out the other day and you did not take ob-
jection to it, exception to it, that you had a very good memory. It
amazes me that you have such a poor memory about your relationship
with Johnny Dio during these montlis in 1953.
Mr. IIoFFA. It may amaze you, but I assure yon that my memory,
as the best that I coukl recall at this moment, is sucli that I cannot
recall those conversations, if there were such.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Were you meeting with Mr. Norton? That is a
name that you said you could remember. Other than the one meet-
ing tliat you said you might have met him, did you
Mr. IIoFFA. I said the reason I recognized that the name Norton
was familiar was because I read that somebody testified here that
he was in a meeting and it does kind of refresh my memory to the
effect that he may have been there.
Mr. Kennedy. If you were so impressed with the organization of
the UAW-AFL and you say tliis v.-as not because of Johnny Dio, you
nnist have been impressed with somebody.
Who were you impressed with that you wanted to bring into the
teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. I was impressed with 80,000 people tliat I believe
could be organized in the cab industry in New York.
]Mr. Kennedy. Why did you believe they could come in under the
teamster organization ? Are you not a great teamsters? Why did you
want Johnny Dio to write them in ?
Mr. IIoFFA. They had an organization which, ai)parently, liad been
started out successfully, to get some applications. They had luid some
strikes, I believe, and I was of the opinion tliat if they were that suc-
cessful, it would certainly be to oui- advantage to start new, but to
use the nucleus that was there.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make an investigation of their activities
up there?
Mr. HoFFA. I do not knoAv if I did or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you took Mr. Dio's woid for what they were
doing?
Mr. HoFFA. No, maybe not. Maybe I did. Maybe I looked at the
cab situation. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it not a fact, Mr. Hoffa, that j'Ou objected to Tom
Hickey in New York, that you felt that you wanted to get a foothold
in New York, and that you wanted to do it through the UAW-AFL
organization and Johnny Dio by bringing them into the teamsters
organization? Is that not a fact? That you wanted to circumvent
Hickey, that you wanted to establish a foothold in New York for
yourself and that is the basis of this friendship with Johnny Dio ?
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Hickey was never a problem for
Hoffa in New York and isn't a problem today.
The Chairman. That does not answer the question. Let us get
the answers and then we can move faster. Repeat your question.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that you were attempting to bring
Johnny Dio and the UAW-AFL organization into the teamsters to
iret a foothold in New York City and be able to circumvent Tom
Hickey ?
Ml'. Hoffa. I vras attempting
]M)-. Kennedy. Would you answer the question "ves" or "no," Mr.
Hoffa. 1 J .
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5149
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot answer a question "yes" or "no" of tliat nature.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't answer the question of whether you were
trying- to bring — let me repeat it.
The Chairman. Let him answer. Let us get his answer.
Mr. HoFFA. You are asking did I want to bring the UAW into
the teamsters union for the purpose of circumventing Hickey. Is
that the question ?
The Chairman. Yes. I think you can answer that "yes" or "no."
Mr. HoFFA. I would say that I was not attempting to bring in the
UAW to circumvent Hickey as the sole reason for bringing them in
or any reason.
The Chairman. All right, then, your answer is "No."
Mr. HoFFA. I would say the answer could be construed as "No."
The Chairman. Well, how do you construe it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would have to say it would be "No."
The Chairman. All right. Now, let us proceed.
Senator Curtis. What were the other reasons ?
Mr. HoFFA. 30,000 unorganized members, potential members, in the
New York area for the teamsters union.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever meet Dioguardi's family ?
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly did.
Senator Curtis. How many times have you met his family ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I would say several. I could not give you the
number of times.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever met them any place other than in
New York ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Where?
Mr. HoFFA. Florida.
Senator Curtis. Whereabouts in Florida ?
Mr. HoFFA. Miami.
Senator Curtis. Any place else ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not that I recall. Senator.
Senator Curtis. You met them in New York ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever been in the Dioguardi home ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir-
Senator Curtis. Where would you meet the family ?
Mr. PIoFFA. I believe that I had, I think, dinner with them one
time, and I may have met them other places. I can't recall.
Senator Curtis. What family does he have?
Mr. HoFFA. He has a wife and two children, to my knowledge.
Senator Curtis. And you have met all three of them at dinner?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Senator Curtis. More than once.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe so.
Senator Curtis. Were you ever the host at a dinner for the Dio-
guardi family ?
Mr. HoFFA. I could have been.
Senator Citrtis. Well, were you ?
IMr. HoFFA. I can't recall.
Senator Curtis. But you did meet the entire family socially on
several occasions.
5150 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I met them on, I believe, more than one occasion. How
many times I could not tell 3^011, Senator.
Senator Cuetis. In Miami and in New York.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes' sir. That is the only place that I can recall that
I met the family.
Senator Curtis. You may have met them elsewhere?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it may have happened, but I don't recall it if
it did.
Senator Curtis. Of course, you have seen him many times when
his family was not along?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. Just what was Mr. Dio's position toward the bring-
ing, according to you, bringing the UAW-AFL organization of the
taxicabs into the teamsters organization without him? What was
his position on that ? How did he feel ?
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. You say how did he feel ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I would not be able to judge his feeling, I don't
T^elieve.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Hoff a
The Chairman. What was his attitude about it.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, as I told you, sir, he would like to have con-
tinued on, from the impression I got, of organizing cabdrivers in the
UAW-AFL.
Mr. Kennedy. So he was opposed to you ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was opposed
Mr. Kennedy. If your statement is correct, Mr. Hoffa, that you
were not interested in bringing Mr. Dio into the teamster organiza-
tion, then it must follow that he was opposed to you and what you
were trying to do, because you were trying to bring the organization
in without him.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know how we would mean that he was opposed
for that simple reason. We could have a difference of opinion, a
difference of views, but I don't think it would necessarily mean that
you were opposed.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you felt differently about it.
My. Hoffa. Well, I would think at first we did.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you change ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I believe after the meeting with Doria, and I
can't recall the particulars.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, what do you mean— the meeting with Doria?
Mr. HoFFA. There was a meeting, so I am informed, and I believe
there was, to the best of my recollection, with Doria, Dio, Beck, Nor-
ton, Hickey, and Hoff, concerning this problem.
Mr. Kennedy. And that is the meeting that Mr. Hickey lias testi-
fied that you argued very strenuously, strongly, for bringing Dio
into the teamsters union. You say that that is untrue, but you say
that Mr. Doria was there, and that the attitude of Dio changed after
this meeting.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I did not first of all say that it was untrue. I
say it might have been his interpretation, but insofar as the meeting
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5151
was concerned, I was interested in bringing the cabdrivers into the
teamsters union, and I believe that I was right in my suggestion.
Mr. Kennedy. What was Mr. Dio's position? That meeting was
some time in May of 1953. What was Mr. Dio's position prior to
that time ? What was his attitude ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I said before, Mr. Dio wanted to continue organiz-
ing the cabdrivers in the UAW. However, Tony Doria being the
president, or excuse me, secretary-treasurer, realized that he didn't
have the jurisdiction and was discussing the question of trying to
arrange to bring that organization of cabdrivers into the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you want to bring at that point, in 1953, May
of 1953, Dio into the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Did I want to bring him in ?
Mr. Kennedy. You heard me.
Mr. PIoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, let me say this : I was interested in bring-
ing the cabdrivers into the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you answer the question ?
Mr. HoFFA. I will. If it would have been necessary to bring Dio
in, and I would have had the authority to do it and I could have
organized the 30,000 unorganized cabdrivers, I would have recom-
mended it.
The Chairman. Did you recommend it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall, sir, that I did, because, as I said. Presi-
dent Beck clearly indicated in Florida that it wasn't acceptable, and
I cannot recall any other discussion on the matter.
The Chairman. If it wasn't acceptable then, why was it pursued ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe, sir, that it was pursued, because it was
the organization that pursued it.
The Chairman. The Florida meeting ended the thing.
Mr. HoFFA. I think it did, to the best of my recollection. I may
have discussed the question again, and I can't recall.
The Chairman. Why were the other meetings held ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was to bring in the organization.
The Chairman. To bring in the organization ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Tlie Chairman. You were having those negotiations continuously
with Mr. Dio, were you not?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall too many meetings on this subject with
Mr. Dio, and it seems to me
The Chairman. Did you meet with him on other subjects?
Mr. HoFFA. At this particular time, no, I don't believe I did,
Senator.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. In this meeting in May of 1953, was Mr. Dio's
position on these taxicabs and the taxicab organization different from
yourself ?
Mr. HoFFA. You are talking about the first meeting in New York ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I am talking about the meeting of May of
1953. Were there several meetings in New York ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I said, Tony Doria did most of the discussing, the
best I can recall, any meeting we were together, and there is only
one I can recall, and I don't know exactly what was discussed at
that meeti ns.
5152 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss the strategy that you would use at
.that meeting with Mr. Dio, prior to the meeting?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't beheve I did. I may have, but I don't believe
so.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, that is something that you can't recall either ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember anything really about your re-
lationship with Mr. Dio and these taxicabs ?
Mr. HoFFA. 1953 is quite a while back, and I have had many meet-
ings since, and I can say here to the Chair that I cannot recall in
answer to your question other than to say I just don't recall my
recollection. If you can tell me I did, maybe some incident will be
able to refresh my memory.
Mr. Kennedy. This is a relatively or must have been an important
matter Mr. Hoffa. You went to Miami and met with Dave Beck
and you went to New York and had a meeting there, and you had
a number of conversations with Doria, and you had a number of
conversations with Mr. Dio, and I would think that you would have
a little clearer recollection as to what went on than you seem to have,
especially since Senator Ives said you had such a good memory on
some things.
Mr. IIoFFA. T can only say this to you : Any time you are trying
to organize 30,000 unorganized workers, it is very important. But
the details, after they are worked out, don't remain in your mind
on any organizational drive unless there is something specifically
brought to 3'our attention that you can recall. I honestly don't recall
some of the incidents you must be talking about.
Mr. Ivennedy. After this meeting in May of 1953, you say that
Mr. Dio's attitude clianged, and what did his position become then?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that the negotiations were carried on after
that meeting with INIr. Mohn, and Mr. Beck, and I believe Mr. Doria,
and I think, as I said yesterday, there was a meeting and I can be
wrong again, but I don't think so, there was a meeting in Lacey's
office concerning that question. I believe there may have been a dis-
cussion in our international office concerning that question.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you propose to Mr. Lacey at that time that Dio
get a charter ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Lacey wouldn't have anything to say about it, I
don't believe.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you propose to him at that time that he get one ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall the discussion concerning that. I think
the discussion was as to whether or not he would cooperate in organiz-
ing taxicabs.
Mr. Ivennedy. Again for another time, did you discuss with him
Dio getting a charter from the teamsters ?
Mr .HoFFA. Did you say I discussed it again ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, let me rephrase it. Did you discuss with Mr.
Lacey Mr. Dio getting a charter from the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't recall that either?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I don't believe that such a discussion would
take place, because Lacey wouldn't have that problem.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5153
Mr. Kennedy. I don't want to know what you don't believe, but
what were the facts ? Did you discuss with Mr. Lacey, Mr. Dio get-
ting a charter from the teamsters ?
Mr. HoEFA. I cannot recall that, whether or not it was discussed
or not, since you don't want my belief and I can't answer.
]\Ir, Kennedy. You can't answer that question, and you don't re-
call that either ?
Mr. PIoFFA. I don't recall at this moment, no.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you say Mr. Dio's attitude changed. How did
it change, and what did his attitude become ?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't say that. You said that. I said that since
Mr. Doria had taken a position that the jurisdiction wasn't their juris-
diction, and the discussion I believe was carried on as I stated by Mr.
Mohn and Mr. Beck and Mr. Dario and other individuals concerning
the question of what would happen with the final outcome of bringing
the taxicabs of the UAW into the teamsters union, and also in con-
nection with the question, I believe I had a meeting also in the inter-
national office.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, you are being very evasive and you are
not answering any of the questions. You are giving a speech every
time I ask you a question.
Would you listen to the question ?
Mr. Hoffa. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. You gave me a speech that had nothing to do with
the question.
Mr. Hoffa, What was the question ?
Mr. Kennedy. Would you read it back to him ?
(The pending question and answer were read by the reporter.)
Mr. Kennedy. That is fascinating, but it doesn't answer the
question.
Mr. Hoffa. It still has to be that to the best of my recollection
Mr. Kennedy. Give me to the best of your recollection. You testi-
fied here that you Avere on one side, and Mr. Dio had a clifi^erent point
of view, that you had a meeting in New York, and that Mr. Dio's
attitude changed, and now how did it change ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I didn't testify there were two sides.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hort'a, you testified on this, and I used the word
"oppose," and you wanted to change it to "difference." The chairman
and you had an exchange about it. I have written the word down
here.
Now, after the meeting, his attitude changed on this, and I want
to find out from you how his attitude changed.
Mr. Hoffa. As I stated, the best that I can say, and the best of
what I can reconstruct from my recollection
Mr. Kennedy. That is qualifying it enough.
Mr. Hoffa. It was carried on with Mr. Mohn and Mr. Beck and
Mr. Doria, and I may have made some phone calls concerning it.
Mr. Kennedy. All I want to find out
Mr. Hoffa. The question was finally resolved.
Mr. Kennedy. How did Mr. Dio's attitude change ?
The Chairman. The question is just simply, did he change to your
point of view, or did he get further away?
Mr. Hoffa. It was finally resolved. That is all I can say.
The Chairman. Kesolved in your favor ?
5154 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. We had to finally issue a new charter in the area and
not take over the UAW.
(Members of the select committee present at this point: Senators
McClellan, McNamara, and Curtis.)
Mr. Kennedy. What did Mr. Dio do? Did he accept that?
Mr. HoFFA. He no longer organized cabdrivers.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he accept that? Did he come over and agree
witli your position then?
How did his attitude change? How did it become different? You
said it became different after the meeting. I am trying to find out
from you how it became different.
Mr. HoFFA. The attitude of Mr. Dio could not be reflected in the
outcome, because the outcome was such that Mr. Dio no longer organ-
ized cabdrivers and Mr. Beck decided to issue a charter and not take
in their organizers or their organization.
]\Ir. Kennedy. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Dio after
this meeting in New York?
Mr. HoFFA. I may have had. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he happy with the results of the meeting?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't recall whether he was happy or unhappy,
Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you? Wliat conversations did
you have with him about it after the meeting ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I just don't recall exactly what conversations we
had. He accepted my decision in organizing cabdrivers, so that must
have been the answer to the problem.
(At this point. Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Well, I am astounded at your qualification of every
answer to every question that I am asking you about this matter.
Mr. PIoFFA. Because you are trying to have me remember back to
1953 of an incident which I can't recall.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, the Chair will state to you that this is
a pretty important aspect of this inquiry.
Mr. HoFFA. I realize that, sir.
The Chairman. I am not able to say that you do not remember,
but it will be helpful to the committee if you can remember for your
testimony with reference to it.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, in respect to the Chair, I will say if you have
something that can refresh my memory, I may be better able to recall
the incidents that took place.
The Chairman. Well, we may have.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, what about Mr. Hickey? What was
your attitude — let me ask you this : Did you propose that a teamster
would head up this organization, or did you want a UAW-AFL man
to head it up ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, as I stated, my position was that we should take
over the existing board of the UAW, which were taxicab drivers.
Mr. Kennedy. So that would be a teamster charter given to the
UAW-AFL officials?
Mr. HoFFA. Into effect.
Mr. Kennedy. So that the individuals, at least, that Dio had
brought into the labor union movement in this local 102 would be in
charge of the operation for the teamsters ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5155
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I can't tell whether or not they were elected or
selected by Dio, so I could not answer your question.
Mr. Kennedy. Then let us assume — let us not assume either one.
This is a local that was founded by Dio, established by Mr. Dio, and
he was the chief official of the local, obviously, and the chief official
of the operations in New York. He was in charge of this local.
Did you want the individuals that either had been elected by this
membership or appointed by him to head up the organization of cab-
drivers in the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. I argued very strongly for that point, and I still believe
that I was correct.
Mr. Kennedy. So you were going to be opposed to having a team-
ster appointed or a teamster official or Mr. Hickey operate this drive
in New York. You v/anted the people from the UAW-AFL to
operate the drive with a teamsters charter, is that right?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I would not quarrel with that position, I would
say you were right.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, were you trying to get
some material, some derogatory information on Mr. Hickey so you
could use it against him so that he would not be able to get this
charter himself ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't quite understand what you mean by that.
Mr. Kennedy, Let me repeat it for you, Mr. Hoffa.
Were you trying to get any information to try to embarrass Mr.
Hickey during this period of time ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I don't know what you are talking about. If I
wanted information on Mr. Hickey, I probably knew Mr. Hickey
quite a while before this. So I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You wanted to get the UAW organization into the
teamsters. Mr. Hickey was opposed to that.
One way is a positive approach and the other way is an approach
of knocking Mr. Hickey down.
Were you trying, during this period of time, in order to build up
Mr. Dio's organization, were you trying to get some embarrassing
information on ]Mr. Hickey ?
That is what I am asking you.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I can't recall doing it.
I may have
Mr. Kennedy. Have done it ?
Mr. Hoffa. No. Just a moment. I may have taked to some people
concerning what Mr. Hickey was talking about in the international
union. I don't just recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't recall that either ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, I cannot,
Mr, Kennedy. Here is a vice president of the teamsters, and I am
asking you whether you were trying to get derogatory or embarrass-
ing information on Mr. Hickey, and your answer to that question is
"I cannot recall"? And you were a vice president and Mr. Hickey
was a vice president? Your testimony before this committee is "I
cannot recall," is that right, Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Kennedy, I don't really know what you are talking
about, so I can't recall doing such a thing.
5156 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
If you have some information that can refresh my memory, I will
be glad to try and cooperate.
Mr. Kennedy. I will leave the record like that.
Maybe we can get something that will refresh your recollection.
Mr. HoFFA. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you can help us some more.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair for a moment?
Will my same objection that I made earlier to the use of the record-
ings from wire interceptions be
The Chairman. The same objection by reference will be noted.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. And the same ruling by the Chair will stand.
Proceed.
Provide counsel and the witness with a copy of the transcript.
So that we may get this in its proper perspective, the Chair will
announce that this telephone conversation, according to the official
record, took place on March 10, 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. And, Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out also
in connection with this telephone conversation that this is the first of
a group that will bear on Mr. Holla's testimony and might help him
refresh liis recollection.
The Chairman. This is one of a series? You have others?
]Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
The Chair]man. In connection with the matters you have been
interrogating him about?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. In connection with Mr. Dio and Mr. Hoffa.
The Chairman. All right.
(Transcript of telephone conversation between Johnny Dio and
Jimmy Hoila on March 10, 1953, follows:)
Johnny Dio (inaudible).
Jimmy Hoffa. I feel fine.
Dio. Everything all right?
Hoffa. Fine ; good.
Dio. Good. Did you get my letter?
Hoffa. No; I didn't get
Dio. Well, I mailed out some of that stuff; I guess you should get it
tomor
Hoffa. I haven't been in the office all day, John ; I just came in.
Dio. Uh-huh. Yeah, well I mailed out some of those circulars and some of the
stuff that has been goin?: on — you said you wanted me to send it to you.
Hoffa. What happened in the court today?
Dio. Ah, that was yesterday. We're waiting for a decision now
Hoffa. I thought it was
Dio. Ah, yes, we — we, ah, defended it without telling them, "Well, now, you
prove it ; we have nothing to prove."
Hoffa. Well, how was the A. F. of L.? Did they — did they go in to say you
still had a charter, didn't they?
Dio. Yeah, nobody said anything against it.
Hoffa. That's right. Because I — Dave Priviant talked to Beck about three
times ■
Dio. Uh-huh.
Hoffa. I talked to him about a half-dozen times
Dio. Uh-huh.
Hoffa. And he seemed to be all right. Now I understand Dave's meeting
somebody in Chicago
Dio. Uh-huh.
Hoffa. From New York on the 16th
Dio. Uh-huh.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5157
HoFFA. Somebody was putting in the rap against you ; I don't know who the
h — he is
Dio. Uh-huh.
HoFFA. Well, we'll be there anyway
Dio. Yeah, well he told me — he told me, ah, that I may have to be on tap
HoFFA. Yeah; but when it comes up, we'll be there anyway — if any G-
trouble, we'll be there to defend it.
Dio. Uh-huh.
HoFFA. I'll be at that meeting.
Dio. Well — wh — ah — they told me; I was told that maybe I should stay
around — that— to be ready to come out there.
HoFFA. I think definitely so.
Dio. Oh, well, I'll be around.
HoFFA. Because I wouldn't let them around.
Dio. That's right. So, ah-h-h-h-h — in the meantime — ah, did you talk to that
Hickeyguy?
HoFFA. I talked to Hickey.
Dio. Yeah?
HoFFA. He promised me that he would straighten that situation out; there
would be no more interference at where you're having elections or anything else
if you'll just let him know where, where you're working and he'll keep the h —
out of there.
Dio. Uh-huh ; all right
HoFFA. And I told him you would call him and tell him.
Dio. Uh-huh. Well, maybe it might be a good idea for Monday th — for me to
be there anyway.
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. Monday or Tuesday, huh?
HoFFA. I don't think it would hurt.
Dio. All right.
HoFFA. I think he definitely promised me he'd keep the h — out of it.
Dio. Yeah. Well, in any — any event I'll get in touch with him tomorrov^
and give him a rundown just in case so they'll be no mistakes on it.
HoFFA. Uh-huh.
Dio. All right.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. All right ; then we'll wait until then.
HoFFA. O. K., Johnny.
Dio. All right, Jim ; thanks a million.
HoFFA. Righto.
Dio. Right.
HOFFA. O. K.
Dio. Bye.
The Chairman. Do you want to interrogate the witness regarding
any statement in here ?
Mr. Kennedy. Does this refresh your recollection at all, Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have read the statement.
Mr. Kennedy. Does it refresh your recollection at all ?
Mr. HoFFA. Not necessarily.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Do you want to talk to your attorney ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Pardon me just a minute.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Kennedy. Evidently there was some opposition from the AFL
regarding Mr. Dio's charter ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I stated before that the AFL had made tho
statement that the UAW didn't have jurisdiction over cabdrivers.
Mv. Kennedy. And you were strongly opposed to that, to the posi-
tion of the AFL at that time, I take it, from this conversation ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, now, how could that be when I was talking to Dio
and to Beck about trying to get them out of the cab business into our
organization?
5158 IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Well, how was the AFL? Did they go in? "Did
they go in to say you still had a charter, didn't they'' and Dio answered,
on page 1, "Yeah, nobody said anything against it," and Iloffa,
^'That's right, because I — Dave Previant talked to Beck about three
times," and then Hoffa, "I talked to him about a half dozen times."
You Avere conversing witli Mr. Beck to make sure there wasn't
this opposition by the AFL to Mr. Dio's charter at tliat time ?
Mr. IIoFFA. Well, now, I read some testimony, Mr. Chairman, if
I may, this is not a direct answer, but I would have to answer it, if
1 may, by making a statement about some testimony here which I
had no knowledge, which may be the answer.
Would that be all right ?
The Chairman. I do not want to keep you from answering any
question. All right.
Mr. HoFFA. The only way that I can answer what you just said is
that I read someAvhere in some testimony here that there had been
a question raised by the AFL in regards to the UAW organizing taxi
drivers, and it was a problem, I believe, in front of tlie AFL for
discussion. While our negotiations were going on, and attempting
to get them out of the cab business, I could have very well made this
phone call, but I don't recall the phone call.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me just tell you what the AFL's position was
on it. The executive council's call for revocation of the charter of
automobile union. New York local, came after investigation by a
9-month-old antiracketeering committee headed by Mr. Meany. He
said that the investigation had convinced the executive council that
the New York charter had been issued to persons with unsavory back-
grounds, who had no visible connection with the union movement, and
they were operating outside the assigned jurisdiction of the parent
Union.
Involved is local 102.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, that could be the ansAver to this telephone conver-
sation.
Mr. Kennedy. This was a question. No. 1, I Avould like to point
out that it Avasn't just the question of the fact that they didn't have
jurisdiction, but it AA'as also the fact that an antiracketeering committee
had made a 9-month study and found the individuals tliat AA^ere
running and operating local 102 Avere people with unsaA^ory back-
grounds. Tlie first point in here, and this is February 1953
The Chairman. In order to get a proper perspective, this is quoted
from the New York Times of February 3, 1953. That was prior to the
date of the telephone conversation.
All right.
Mr. Kennedy. No. 1, from the transcript it is clear that you knew
what was going on as far as jVIr. Dio's operations in New York. You
asked him Avhat happened in court today, and he gave you an account
of it.
No. 2, that you had spoken to Dave Previant to intervene with Dave
Beck in connection with Mr. Johnny Dio's operation.
No. 3, that you stated that you talked to Mr. Dave Bed: in con-
nection with Mr. Dio's operations a half dozen times.
The Chairman. Let me ask a f cav questions.
Follow the transcript, Mr. Hoffa.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5159
On page 1, Dio says :
Uli-lnih. Yeah, well I mailed out some of those circulars and some of the
stuff that has been going on — you said you wanted me to send it to you.
What was the circulars and the stuff going on ?
Mr. HoFFA, Well, I just cannot recall what particular circulars
they are talking about, Senator. I just can't do it. Unless someone
can show me one, I just can't recall.
The Chairman. You asked him what happened in court today.
Mr. HoFFA. I can answer that, I believe.
The Chairman. All right. What was that ?
Mr. HoFFA. We had been discussing during our conversations about
the taxicab union, that some kind of a — I think a hack bureau they
call it — was the one that handled the complaints against cabdrivers,
and there were sonvij proceedings trying to change, I believe, that
regulation concerning cabdrivers, which would have affected us
whether they were in the UAW or the teamsters so far as cabdrivers
are concerned.
That is the best I can recall as to what that would mean, Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. I can refresh your recollection.
Mr. HoFFA. All right, if you can.
Mr. Kennedy. It was discussing a hearing before the New York
State Labor Relations Board.
Mr. HoFFA. That could be it.
Mr. Kennedy. Which was held on March 9, 1953, and in which
local 102, UAW, was a petitioner for certification in three separate
cases involving the following companies: Flora Corp., Brooklyn,
Chase Maintenance Corp, Manhattan, and Home Taxi Service Corp.,
the Bronx.
So you were asking him a question in connection with his appear-
ance before a board in connection with the drive on the taxicabs.
The Chairman. Is that correct?
Mr. HoFTA. Well, sir, if it is stated there, it could very easily be
that or as to the hack bureau. I tried to give you my best recollection.
Apparently it was wrong.
Mr. Kennedy. And putting it in correct perspective, this was in
opposition to the organization that the teamsters were operating at
that time in attempting to organize the taxicab drivers, because you
had been informed by telephone, in the transcript we read yesterday,
on February 26, that Mr. John Strong and the teamsters were or-
ganizing or trying to organize the taxicabs.
Mr. HoFFA. My answer would have to be the same as yesterday,
that if the problem of getting the UAW out of the taxicab business
was pending and under discussion, it would probably have been to
keiep from irritating the situation that I would make such a statement.
Senator Mundt. Who is Dave Previant ?
Mr. IIoFFA. An attorney at law, sitting right back here, sir.
Senator Mundt. When he talks to Beck, he talks for you ? He was
representing you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Dave Previant represents the central conference, as
our attorney, or the central States drivers council and central States
conference.
Senator Mundt. Could Mr. Previant refresh your memory as to
what those conversations with Beck were about?
5160 IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I could ask him if you want me to.
Senator Mundt. Would you do that ?
(The witness conferred with Mr. Previant.)
The Chairman. Shall we proceed ?
Mr. HoFFA. He asked me to ask the lawyer for some information.
The Chairman. All right, let us proceed.
Mr. IIoFFA. He informs me that the best he can recall was the
question that he was also the attorney for the UAW, and President
Beck was talkinor to him about how you would be able to take the
UAW local cab operation into our organization.
Senator JNIundt. Do I understand at that time he was attorney for
both the teamsters and the Ui\.W ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Is that still true ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think so ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. The next question I would like to get some ex-
planation on, Mr. Hoffa, is, "Well, how was the A. F. of L? Did
they — did they go in to say you still had a charter, didn't they?"
What were you talking about?
Mr. HoFFA. Again I think, sir, it must have referred to the fact
that they were talking about what Mr. Kennedy just read, the giving
up of the particular cab chartered local, and we were attempting to
hold this thing in abeyance until we could work it out. I would
assume that is what this conversation would be about.
The Chairman. Well, then, you proceed to talk to Mr. Beck a half
a dozen times. What were you talking to him about ?
Mr. PIoFFA. I may have been talking to him, and again this is from
just trying to reconstruct from this language, and knowing what
normall}^ would happen in this type of an instance, I may have been
talking to President Beck about the fact that the situation should
not be irritated in New York, and endeavored to work it out without
losing that organization and start rebuilding an entirely new organi-
zation.
The Chairman. Well, Dio reported to you, ''That is right." "No-
body said anything against it."
Mr. Hoffa. Sir, President Beck
The Chairman. Who was Meany going to meet in Chicago ? You
seemed to know, from New York.
Mr, Hoffa. I think, sir, that is in reference to Previant going to
meet somebody in New York, or in Chicago.
The Chairman. And not Beck.
]Mr. Hoffa, Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who was he to meet from New York?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't know. Maybe I could find out if you want me
to consult with him.
The Chairman. Do you recall ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir.
The Chairman. You seemed to know at the time.
Mr. Hoffa. I probably did.
The Chairman. What do you mean here, when you say to him,
"somebody was putting in the rap against you; and I don't know
wlio the H — he is." Who did you mean ? A rap against whom, and
Ta?Ki4.t. kind of a rap ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5161
Mr. HoFFA. Now I imagine somebody was trying, and again I am
trying to reconstruct this, and I imagine someone was trying to pick
up the cliarter prior to us having an opportunity to bring that organ-
ization into ours. I assume that it what it was.
The Chairman. You mean you do not refer to a legal rap, a crim-
inal rap ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would not say that at all, sir.
The Chairman. You do not know ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, the context of the telephone conversation does
not indicate it, sir.
The Chairmajst. I do not know, a rap ; maybe I am not familiar with
all of its usages.
Mr. Koffa. It is a complaint, sir.
The Chairman. Taking a rap, it may be a complaint. All right.
We v/ill call it that. Wliat kind of complaint or rap was it against
Dio?
Mr. Hoffa. As I say, I don't recall, I am just trying to reconstruct
and it says the charter was under discussion. It could very well have
been pertaining to tliat, and I can't recall it and I am trying to follow
this conversation and it could have pertained to that.
The Chairman. Tlien you say, "Well, he will be there anyway."
^"We will be there." Who is ""we" 'i
Mr. Hoffa. I would not be able to tell you at this moment.
The Chairman. It would include you ; would it not ?
Mr. Hoffa. Apparently it would ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you mean the other "we" would l)e you and
Dio?
, Mr. Hoffa. It could have been that I would have been there with
anyone of tlie inter7iatiorial officers. Beck or JMohn or anybody else
that was hivolved in this discussion. I can't recall.
The Chairman. Dio said he was told that he might need to be on
tap. Do you know who he was told by? "He told me that I might
have to be on tap." Do 3^011 know who "he" refers to ?
Mr. Hoffa. Let me see if I can follow this, and maybe I can find
an answer to it. T don't know. That could refer to Doria, or I don't
know who it could refer to.
The Chairman. Isn't it a fact that at tliat time the rap actually re-
ferred to the I'acketeering practices of Dio, and this is one of the inci-
dents about which you said you would be there with him?
Ml'. Hoffa. With who, sir, the AFL, you mean ?
The Chair]\i.\n. With Dio, to defend him and protect him and to
hell) him ?
'Mv. Hoffa. Well, I don't think this conversation pertains to any-
thing except the union, sir.
The Chairman. Let me say, "Yeah; but when it comes up" — this
is you talking — "when it comes up, we'll be there anyway — if any
0 trouble, we'll be there to defend it." Wliat do you mean ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, again this could have been a problem of meeting
with our international representatives concerning the question of try-
ing to get the two organizations together.
Tlie Chairman. Is that your best recollection of it ?
Mr. Hoffa. I am trying to reconstruct it. It is the best recollection
T can gather out of this.
5162 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You say that you Avill be at the meeting. What
meeting did you refer to ?
Mr. HoFFA. I said there was a meeting — that was May, I think — I
don't know. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Now, he said, Dio said, "Well, they told me ; I was
told that maybe I should stay around — that — to be ready to come out
there." And then you answered, "I think definitely so." "Out there"
means where ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I just could not recall this conversation to
start with, and you have it in front of me and I am trying to reconstruct
it and I just can't tell you. I just can't tell you, unless somebody can
bring it to my memory, and I can't tell you.
The CiiAiR3iAN. Well, there is a relationship here that gives this
committee some concern. I think that you can appreciate what it is.
Dio is not a very popular fellow in some circles these days.
Mr. HoFFA. lie wasn't at that time, sir.
The Chahiman. He wasn't at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. So I would Jiave no reason, that 1 can think of, to be
hesitant to be seen with Dio to discuss a problem with Dio, who was
an official of the l.TAW, AFL, or attend a meeting where he was at
trying to work out a problem concerning the teamsters union.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me just say something about Mr. Dio at that
time you are saying you could not know anything about.
No. 1, I call 3'our attention to the fact that the AFL had made a
study for 9 months, and said that this local was dominated by
racketeers.
In 1932 he was indicted for coercion and in 1933 for felonious assault,
and 1936 vagrancy, and 1937 for extortion and 1940 he was released
from Sing Sing, and his uncle James Plumeri, who is a well-known
hoodlum, and he operated from 1940 through 1950 a group of dress
shops, during 1950 and 1951 while he was in the UAW Local 102, he
was being paid by one of these dress shops a total of $11,500 in order
to keep the dress shop nonunion.
So it was clear at that time that he was not interested in the union
and he hired Benny the Bug Ross during this period of time, and he
hired Joe Curcio. who had a police record, and he obtained a charter
for Abe Goldberg who had a police record down in Philadelphia, whom
I believe you know.
He hired Anthon Topazio and Joe Cohen who were convicted of
extortion. That is up to 1951. In 1952 the AFL, on May 22 started
to investigate him. On July 11 and 12 District Attorney Hogan said
that his local 649 exists for no other purpose than to extort from the
public.
August 14 the AFL, Dave Dubinsky, said that Mr. Dio was using
the cliarter as a gangster normally does.
October 14 he got a charter for George Snyder, who proceeded to
make sweetheart contracts. In 1953, he obtained a charter for local
198 — this is all prior to this time that you had these conversations with
him and in which you said you knew nothing about him.
Pie obtained a charter for local 198 for Gasster and Cohen, both
.of them picked up for extortion within a period of three weeks.
On February 2 tlie executive council of local 102 revoked the cliarter,.
after their 9 months' investigation because of racketeerinji.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5163
That is up until the time that these conversations were taking place
and he had other activities after that which we will go into later on.
The Chairman. You can see the importance of that, because we
have an issue about charters being issued subsequent to this time. It is
a matter, I think, of considerable concern, and we want to clear it up
an.d we want to get the facts about it.
What I am trying to find out here now, Mr. Hoffa, from these
conversations, the one played yesterday, and the one played today, the
very tone of them, and the information in them, although it needs
clarification in places, indicates a very strong friendship and working
arrangement between you and Mr. Dio.
Do you want to make any comment on that ?
Mr. Hoffa. My comment would only be this: I did not make an
investigation — and apparentl}^ was made thoroughly by this com-
mittee— because I had no particular reason to do so.
I had met Mr. Dio in the latter part of 1952, and this is the early
part of 1953, and we were discussing an incident concerning labor and
he was at that time a labor leader for the UAW-AFL. So I have
no comment to say except I was discussing a problem in trying to work
out a solution between our two international unions.
(Members of the select committee present at this point in tlie pro-
ceedings were Senators McClellan, McNamara, and Mundt.)
The Chairman. This apparently refers to some other things, this
conversation. You were keeping out interference with his operation
at tliat time. Doesn't that clearly indicate that in this conversation ?
Mr. Hoffa. There is no question about it. But we were trying to
work out a merger — rather, a takeover of their organization, and
rather than irritate the problem during the time of discussion
The Chairman. It seems to me it would have been much easier
to have taken over these locals, if tliat is what you really wanted, if you
exposed the situation that surrounded them and their organization
at that time with a man of this kind running the show, instead of
trying to defend him, protect liim and hold him in there.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, sir, I l)elieve that tlie organization, that the UAW
had was doing a comparatively good job, and ratlier than start over
again, as I stated before, we wei'e negotiating to take over tliat opera-
tion even though we had some opposition from within our own family.
We were trying to keep things on an even keel during that period.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed.
Senator McNamara. Before you leave this telephone conversation,
Mr. Chairman, may I ask a couple of questions ?
It isn't evident from this transcript that I have before me, the
transcript of this telephone conversation, between Johnny Dio and
Jinmiy Hoffa, who originated the call. Is that evident? Does the
witness know? This seems to come in in the middle of the conver-
sation.
Mr. Hoffa. Offhand I wouldn't be able to do that.
Senator McNamara. You don't know whether you called him or he
called you?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir. I wouldn't be able to tell from this.
Senator McNamara. Does the record show ?
Mr. Kennedy. We believe it is Dio to Hoffa.
89330— 57— pt. 13 16
5164 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator McNamara. We don't have any proof? It is an assump-
tion ?
Mr. Kennedy. It is Dio to Hoffa.
Senator McNa^sfara. It is Dio to Hoffa, but you don't know?
Mr. Kennedy. All rii^ht. Yes.
Senator McNamara. You do know it is Dio to Hoffa?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Senator jMcNamar^\. All rio-ht. The record should show.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Hoffa, have you made any examination of the
type of leaders that this UAW cabdrivers union had that they were
trying to bring in? You knew Dio. You testified to that. Did
you know the leaders of the local union under him?
Mr. Hoffa. I can't say that I did, sir. I made no investigation.
Senator Mundt. You v^-anted to bring them in and make them of-
ficers of the teamsters union ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Wouldn't you normally investigate to see whether
they were n.ien of good repute, good labor leaders, competent fellows,
interested in the union? You wouldn't just take vague, unknown
characters and say, ""We want to make them part of our union";
would you?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, sir, I think the fact that they had been organized
and conducting some strikes, and that they, to my understanding,
came off of cabs, would normally make up any labor organization.
Senator Mundt. You have the one report from the AFL which
apparently had investigated them, and which said they were unsavory
characters or had unsavory reputations. I was wondering wdiat your
policy was and what investigation you made to determine whether or
not they were unsavory.
Mr. Hoffa. "Well, sir, nobody gave me a copy of that proposal. I
don't think I ever saw it.
On the other hand, the question of the cabdrivers in doing the or-
ganizing job they had did, if we took them in and found out there
was something wrong, and it was properly supervised, it could have
been corrected.
Senator Mundt. Is it your testimony that at this stage of your ac-
quaintanceship witli Dio, you had no idea that he had been involved
in racketeering ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I didn't say that. Senator.
Senator Mundt. How much of his record did you know?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't know whether or not I knew in the very few
months that I had met him at that time, whether or not I knew he had
once been convicted or found out later.
But 1 did hnd out during the course of time that I knew Dio, that
he had been c(mvicted and that was wliile he was working for the
L' AW, but I don't know what period of time I found that out.
Senator Mundt. You had not made any investigation of him,
either?
Mr. Hoffa. Well now — excuse me. He was not convicted in the
UAW, but he was convicted and he was working for the UAW.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to point out that in the call you knew
somebody was against it because you say, "Somebody is putting the
rap^against you." And you also say, "We'll be there to defend it."
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5165
So you knew there was something about him, and you were going
to defend Mr. Dio on March 10, 1953. You were prepared to do so.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, there had been some opposition.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 35 p. m., the hearing in the above-entitled mat-
ter was recessed, to reconvene at 2 p. m. of the same day.)
(Members of the select committee present at the taking of the re-
cess : Senators McClellan, McNamara, and Mundt.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session : Senators McClellan, Ives, and McNamara.)
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, the hotel-bill records we were dis-
cussing this morning have not been made a part of the record. Could
we have them made a part of the record for reference ?
The Chairman. I think Mr. Bellino testified to them yesterday.
They may be made exhibit ITI for reference and need not be printed
in the record.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 171" for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is our contention from the
work that we have done, that Mr. Hofi'a was attempting during the
period of 1953, or starting in 1953, to attempt to get a foothold in
New York in the eastern seaboard, in the central conference of team-
sters ; that he was going to use for that foothold initially Mr. Johnny
Dio and his organization; that his enemy in New York was Mr.
Tom Hickey and that he was going to try to circumvent Mr. Hickey ;
that he was going to try to use Mr. Johnny Dio to do that ; and that
he was trying to get the teamsters to grant a taxicab charter to Mr.
Johnny Dioguardi and his organization.
I have some more evidence that I would like to put into the record at
this time in connection with Mr. Hoffa's answers this morning regard-
ing his relationship with Tom Hickey, and what he and Mr. Dio
were attempting to do during this crucial period in 1953, showing that
Mr. Hoffa was attempting to circumvent Mr. Hickey and he and Dio
were working together, not at odds, during this period, and that Mr.
Hoffa was trying to use Mr. Dio to get around Mr. Tom Hickey, who
was the general organizer of the international in New York during
this period of time.
The Chairman. All right, you may proceed.
We will provide the witness and his counsel with copies of the
telephone conversations.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEOEGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any comment on my statement before
we begin ?
Mr. HoFFA. Do I have any comment on your statement ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
5166 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Well, frankly, I did not know you were addressing me,,
and I thought you were addressing the Chair. I could not answer at
this moment. I thought you were addressing the Chair.
Mr. Kennedy. Thank you.
Mr. HoFFA Mr. Kennedy made a remark, and is it necessary that I
answer ?
The Chairman. It is not necessary.
Mr. HoFFA. I did not really pay any attention to it.
Mr. Kennedy. 1 will repeat if you would like.
Mr. HoFFA. If you think it is necessary, only I did not really think
you were talking to me and I thought you were talking to the Chair.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not hear it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I did, but actually it did not penetrate what I was
concentrating on.
The Chaikiman. I^t us proceed. I imagine it is covered, most of it,
in this transcript you have before you, and so if you have any comment
after we play that, we will have it.
Let us proceed.
(The telephone transcript of May 1, 1953, between Johnny Die and
David Previant is as follows :)
Woman's Voice. Hello?
First Operator. 4500.
Second Operator. Thank you.
First Operator. I would like to speak with Mr. David Previant.
Second Operator. Thank you. David Previant?
First Opeirator. Thank you, operator.
Second Operator. You're welcome.
First Operator. Hello ?
David Previant. Hello.
First Operator. Mr. Previant. One moment, please.
Mr. Previant. All right.
Dio. Dave?
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. How are you?
Previant. All right, Johnny. How are you?
Dio. Oh, boy, I had the lousiest night of my life.
Previant. Is that right? Did you get out on time?
Dio. No, but I got out at 9 : 50. But I saw my — I think I ought to give up
fiying.
Pre^t:ant. Is that right?
Dio. Yeah. Eleven guys on the plane.
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. And I want to tell you, the pilot and everybody else dying.
Previant. I'll be darned. You just bumped along, huh?
Dio. Bumped along was nothing. I thought the plane was going to crack
in midair.
Previant. Is that right?
Dio. Holy crew. We flew for 5 hours and 50 minutes.
Previant. I'll be darned. I am surprised that they didn't put it down and
wait.
Dio. They couldn't.
Previant. They couldn't
Dio. Twenty minutes after they left Chicago, they tried to get back.
Previant. Is that right?
Dio. They couldn't get back.
Previant. Oh, boy. How many years did you lose?
Dio. How many years?
Previant. Yes.
Dio. Well, I'm telling you, my handkerchief was wet.
Previant. I can imagine. I can imagine.
Dio. Everybody admitted that they were all scared.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5167
Previant. Yeali. That's a terrible experience.
Dio. I'll tell you what I called about, Dave.
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. What is Dick's second name, out in St. Louis?
Previant. Kavner.
Dio. How do you spell that?
Previant. K-a-v
Dio. K-a- ■
Previant. K-a-v
Dio. G?
Previant. V — lilce victory.
Dio. Like what?
Previant. Victory.
Dio. Yeah.
Previant. n-e-r.
Dio. n-e-r?
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. Kavner?
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. You don't have his address, do you, or his phone number?
Previant. Wait a minute. I should have it some place here, Johnny. Main
1284.
Dio. Main
Previant. 11184.
Dio. 1284.
Previant. His address is 1127 Pine Street.
Dio. Pine Street?
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. St. Louis?
Previant. 11
Dio. What is it?
Previant. 1127.
Dio. Pine Street?
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. In St. Louis.
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. Uh, all right. Because I'm getting some of those congressional things,
jou know.
Previant. Oh, yeah.
Dio. And that's the same guy, Al Friedman that I was trying to find out his
first name
Previant. Uh-huh.
Dio. Because he was involved out there with Harry Bridges.
Previant. Oh, I see.
Dio. Some time ago.
Previant. I see.
Dio. And if that doesn't do it, I spoke with Jim
Previant. Yeah, I meant to ask you that.
Dio. a couple of minutes
Previant. What did he say?
Dio. And it's only the one miserable character
Previant. Uh-huh.
Dio. And we just got to work around it.
Previant. Yeah. I imagine Jim is still optimistic, isn't he?
Dio. I'm listening to you now, don't worry. I'm worried, but you say don't
worry, so I'm going to try not to.
Previant. Well, look, you're in good hands. If anybody can do it, this guy
can do it.
Dio. Look, Einar Mohn, everybody, everybody was talking, so
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. Let's see. You know, the operation was a success, but tlie patient died.
Thafs what I am worried about.
Previant (laughter).
Dio. You know what I mean?
Previant. Right.
Dio. But in the meantime we'll try — look, I never give up.
Previant. I know.
5168 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Dio. I don't never give up, David. , .
PRF.VIANT. You would havc given up a year ago if you were giving up.
Dio. In fact to be honest with you, more than that. [Laughter.] How do
you feel?
Previant. Pretty good, Johnny.
Dio. How does my friend Anthony feel?
Previant. Uh-huh.
Dio. He seems to be a little perturbed. ^ , ■ t,<.
Previant. I think he is a little more perturbed about the Chicago deal right
now than he is about you.
Dio. That is a terrible thing that happened?
Previant. This guy is such a nudnick.
Dio. He is no good.
Previant. Yeah.
Dio. He is no good.
Previant. Every time he makes a statement, he makes it worse.
Dio. He's no good.
Previant. Right.
Dio. All riirht. I'll see you soon.
Previant. Right.
Dio. Right. I'll see you. Bye-bye.
Mr. Kennedy. There is another call that succeeds this, and follows
this. Mr. Chairman, to be plaved rig^ht away.
(The following is a transcript of the telephone conversation _ ot
May 1, 1953, at 2 : 03 p. m., between Johnny Dioguardi and Dick
Kavner :)
First Operator. Main 2-1248.
.Second Operator. Main 2-1284?
First Operator. Right.
Second Operator. Thank you.
First Operator. Operator, I would like to speak with Mr. Dick Kavner.
Second Operater. ^Vhat is the last name?
First Operator. K-a-v-n-e-r.
Second Operator. K-a-v-n-e-r.
Kavner. Hello?
First Operator. One moment, please.
Dio. Hello?
Kavner. Hello. Johnny?
Dio. How are you. Dick?
Kavner. O.K., Johnny.
Dio. Did you have a nice trip back?
Kavner. Yeah, pretty good.
Dio. Uh-huh. ^ , ^ , ,,.
Kavner. How did you make out? Did you meet with Jim before you left/
Dio. Yeah, I was with Jim. I left at 9 and he left at 10. I was with him a
while. I was with him aU day, in fact, upstairs, practically.
Kavner. Yeah.
Dio. I'll tell you, that guy's name is Al.
Kavner. ItisAl?
Dio. Al.
Kavner. Al Friedman?
Dio. That's right.
Kavner. Okay.
Dio. That is why
Kavner. I'm pretty sure he is a Commie.
Did. Well, that we know he is for a fact here. I gave you that slip ; didn t I i
Kavner. Yeah, I got it. x,. i, x
Dio. Well, that we know he is. There is some more stuff on him which I
didn't get yet, but I'll get it. In fact, I got some stufE on Honest Tom.
Kavner. Yeah?
Dio. Yeah.
Kavner. That should be interesting.
Dig. Yeah. Which I'm going to give to Jim.
Kavner. Listen, do you want me to get the record of both of those guys, right?
Dio. Yeah.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5169
Kavner. I'll get the record of both of those guys. Shall I mail it to you or
Jim?
Dio. No ; mail it to me. Jim — they are going to meet in New York, you see,
with the committee, and I want to shoot out there and bring everything over-
there.
Kavner. All right. Fine.
Dio. Dick, I don't want to impose upon you, but as fast as we possibly can
get it, because we would like to get it before that executive council meets, see,
so we can meet amongst ourselves.
Kavner. I'll get on it this afternoon. I was just waiting for his first name
to make certain
Dig. All right, Johnny. Thanks a million.
Kavner. As soon as I get it, I'll mail it directly to you.
Dio. All right, fellow. Right.
Thanks a lot.
Kavner. Right.
Dio. Bye.
The Chairmax. All right, Mr. Counsel, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, the date of these calls is May 1, 1953,
and it was during this period that it was being considered about bring-
ing the taxicab organization of the UAW-AFL, into the teamsters
organization.
Now, Mr. Hoffa has testified that Mr. Dio and he had a different
position on this, that he was anxious to bring the organization into the
teamsters, but that Mr. Dio wanted to continue the organizational
drive as part of the UAW-AFL, and that this position was maintained
by Mr. Dio until after they met in New York.
He was unable to explain how the position changed at that time.
But this was prior to their meeting in Xew York, prior to the May 13
meeting, and it clearly shows that at this time there was not only a
positive attempt to bring the UAW-AFL, into the teamsters, but that
Mr. Dio and Mr. Hoffa were on the same side and not only were they
going to take a positive approach to this but they were going to take
an approach to try to get material and get information on Tom Hickey
and people that worked for Tom Hickey.
Now, we have the information and we know, Mr. Chairman, and
we left his name out, who the last name of "Al" is, and he is an em-
ployee, or works with Mr. Tom Hickey in his office.
They were attempting during this period of time to get derogatory
information, embarrassing information on Mr. Tom Hickey and on
individuals that worked with Tom Hickey.
This was Mr. Hoffa who was participating in this, and Tom
Hickey, as you know, is a vice president of the teamsters and gen-
eral organizer of the teamsters in New York.
The Chairman. Let us ask the witness what he knows about it.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, Mr. Chairman, first of all the first recording
was a conversation between Previant and Dio, and the second con-
versation was a conversation between Dio and Kavner.
The Chairman. That is correct.
Mr. Hoffa. LTnless there is some specific
The Chahiman. Your voice is not in it, but I am asking you, do
you know anything about what the subject matter is here and what
is being planned and what it relates to ?
Mr. Hoffa. May I take another glance to see how it refreshes my
memory.
The Chairman. Yes, you may.
5170 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(At this point, Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
Mr, HoFFA. Well, I notice that the}'^ used my name but they
actually don't say anything in particular as to myself except that
the}^ are going to first of all, the first conversation, they discuss •
The Chairman. In the first conversation ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it was Tom Hickey. I saw it a minute ago.
I think I was looking for the last name and now I will look for
the first, if I may.
No; I listened to the recording and I thought it said something
about Tom, but I guess it is in the second one.
(Members of the select committee present at this point in the pro-
ceedings: Senators McClellan, Ives, McNamara, Goldwater, and
Curtis.)
Tlie Chairman. Is this Mr. Previant the same Dave Previant that
you said had called Mr. Beck some three times in a previous
conversation ?
Mr.HoFFA. It could have been, sir.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I think that was on February 26, sir — rather, March
10, I should say, and this is in May. I don't recall tliat I would have
any reason to have discussed either one of tliese conversations, even
though I know he was supposed to send me something. He finally
makes the statement that he was going to send it to Dio and not to
myself, as he originally discussed it.
I can't recall receiving anything on that, sir.
The Chairman. Dio said he was to have it in New York for that
meeting. Which meeting do you think he has in mind?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, now, when was our meeting? If you w411 re-
fresh my memory, ]Nir. Kennedy
Mr. Kennedy. May 13.
Mr. HoFFA. In the Hampshire House ?
Mr. Kennedy. May 13, in New York.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I cannot recall hardly the meeting, even, except
that I was refreshed by Mr. Hickey, and I don't know whether or
not Mr. Hickey made any statements concerning anything that was
proposed at that meeting. If it was, that might help me refresh my
memory. Senator. This I can't recall discussing it. It may never
have came about, because there was a discussion, apparently, of some-
thing that was to be gathered up, but I don't recall it, to my
recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. It is clear, is it not, that the information that was
to be gathered up was information regarding the Cominunist back-
ground— —
Mr. HoFFA. You would gather that.
Mr. Kennedy. Of an individual.
Mr. HoFFA. You would gather that.
Mr. Kennedy. And that this was done by Mr. Dio, and that this
information was to be discussed with you, and that also he had some
information, as he disclosed later, that he had on Honest Tom.
Honest Tom is Tom Hickey ; is it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. He is commonly known as Honest Tom.
Mr. Kennedy. So this information, this derogatory information,
was to be gathered on an associate of Mr. Hickey, and on Tom Hickey,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5171
and that the information was to be discussed with you by Mr, Dio,
No. 1.
No. 2, it shows clearly, and it should refresh your recollection on
this, that Mr. Dio was anxious, himself, on this taxicab matter; that
he was working with you, that he was not adverse and on a difi'erent
side from you, but he was working with you in this connection; and
that if you were anxious to bring the taxicab organization over, he
was also anxious to bring the taxicab organization over.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think we are getting to the point now where
I think we better try and get this straightened out. I never denied,
if you will remember the fact, that I was trying to get the officers of
the then chartered UAW taxicab union into our organization. And
there was an honest difference of opinion between Hickey's views
and my views, but not necessarily was there a dispute between Hickey
and myself to the point that there could be an argument, if I can
recollect the problem.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a difference in your view and Mr. Dio's
view?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, there may not have been at that time. I don't
remember. I am trying to refresh my memory out of these conversa-
tions, but they are such with other people that I actually don't know
how I can do it.
Mr. Kennedy. You said that Mr. Dio held a different position.
This is your position, this is what you stated : That you wanted to get
this organization, UAW-AFL into the teamsters, but that you weren't
anxious to have Mr. Dio in with it. Mr. Dio was anxious to have
the UAW-AFL stay where it was.
Mr. Hickey's testimony on the other hand was that you were
anxious to get him a charter. These conversations show clearly that
you and Mr. Dio were working together, that you had a mutual
interest in this matter, and that you were trying to obstruct the activity
of Mr. Hickey.
Now, if you were working together, you were working together to
bring Dio and his organization into the teamsters, just as Mr. Hickey
testified; that you went so far that you were trying to get some infor-
mation on an associate of Tom Hickey, and that you were getting
information on Tom Hickey himself.
(At this point Senator Ives entered the hearing room.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, unless I had the record, I couldn't say
what you have just stated is the way it has been stated, but I have
repeatedly attempted to tell this committee, from my recollections, that
I was attempting to get the board members or officers of the UAW-
AFL local into our organization, and other individuals were interested
in getting a charter and starting over anew.
What transpired during that course of time until it was completed,
I cannot recollect nor recall completely those incidents other than if
somebody refreshes my memory, and this doesn't refresh my memory
to the degree of answering you, because this conversation is between
Previant and Dio and Kavner and Dio.
The Chairman. The point is, since they refer to you, they are
getting information that was going to go to you, and it had to be done
before this meeting. Obviously you were involved in some way, in
view of the other testimony and the testimony that M!r. Hickey has
5172 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
given, and wliat you describe as a difference between you and Jolinny
Dio. In these conversations nowhere do we lind indicated any dif-
ference between you and Mr. Dio.
Is there anythino- in here that points out or indicates the difference?
I woukl like to have 3'ou point it out. I don't see anything that
indicates the difference.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't deny that there is anything in the telephone
conversations that woukl show any difference, because I was trying
to work out an arrangement between the UAW-AFL and tlie team-
sters union, which Dio was not in agreement with, but, as I said before,
Doria, being tlie international ])resident, and having realized that the
jurisdiction wasn't their jurisdiction, that Dio probably — and I am
only now surmising, and I want it to be as a surmise or a recollection —
was attempting to hold together his organization until the agreement
was either consummated or broke off, or the discussions we had
previously had.
INIr. Kenxedy. ]\Ir. Iloffa, obviouslv Mr. Dio was taking an active
interest. Obviously you are correct that he would not want to give
this organization up. ]Mr. Dio wasn't in this to have worked for a
couple of years and then just hand it over. Obviously he wanted
something out of it.
What he wanted out of it was, obviously, once again, if the teamsters
were going to take over this organization, he wasn't going to give it
Tip, he was going to go with it.
Clearly, from this record, it was shown that you and Mr. Dio were
on the same side.
I point out to you on the top of page 5 :
Previant. Yeah, I imagine Jim is still optimistic ; isn't lie?
Dio. I'm listening to you now, don't worry. I'm not worried, but you say don't
worry, so I'm going to try not to.
Obviously from that, ]Mr. Hoffa, you and Mr. Dio were working for
the same thing. Mr. Dio, from his nature, from knowing anything
about him, he was not going to just hand over this organization to the
teamsters and not go with it. He was actively striving to stay with
the organization and get a teamster charter. He was willing to go and
get information on Tom Hickey. He was willing to get information
on those associated with Tom Hickey, and you were a part of it.
^Ir. HoFEA. Well, I think you are surmising more in this conversa-
tion than there is. Unless you could refresh my recollection, I gave
jou the answer I have to give you. I cannot tell you from this con-
versation, and I cannot recollect receiving any information that was
sent to me, if it "was sent to me.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Ives.
Senator I\'fs. I do not want to digress too much here, but JVfr. Ken-
nedy refei'red to my commendation of the witness, Mr. Hoffa, the other
day, when I commeiided him upon his memory in recalling a quotation
that I read that appeared in the newspaper about a year and a half ago.
He not only recalled the quotation, but he recalled the person that
wrote the article.
I still pay my respects to Mr. Hoffa's memory, but at the same time
I am constrained to point out that he has the most convenient for-
gettery of anybody I have ever seen.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5173
The other day I had occasion to talk just a moment with Mr. Hoffa,
and I told him I tliought he was honest. I said, "We will know
more about that when we get the testimony about you and Johnny
Dio."
Do you remember that part of it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly do, sir.
Senator Ives. You certainly do.
Unfortunately, tlie press did not get the last part of it.
(At this point. Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
Senator Ives. I am a little bid disturbed. I do think you are lionest,
in one sense of the word, and this I will stick to, so far as I know
of your reputation in Detroit. I think you keep your word, and that is
a very important part of honesty.
But the rest of your honesty is being tested right here.
Mr. Hoffa. I recognize that.
Senator Ia^s. Noav just see if you cannot remember a little more
clearly when things come up, because I know your memory is good
enough so you can. And I know what your I. Q. is. You are not
kidding me a doggone bit in this thing.
I want to ask a few questions, Mr. Chairman, While we are off
on this tangent, I would like to pursue it a little further.
When you were working with James C. James, did you know that
the former president of the AFL-CIO, the former president of the
AFL, Mr. Willinm Green, had revoked a charter held by James for
a local composed of jukebox workers, because the local was con-
trolled by racketeers ':f
Mr. HoFFA. I know it was revoked, and I know the political reasons
beliind that statement.
Senator Ives. Do you know why it was revoked ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Senator Ives. Because of the racketeering ?
Mr. HoFFA. That wasn't the reason. Tliere were some political
reasons of the federation behind it.
Senator Ives. There may have been political reasons on the side,
but apparently Mr. Green's main reason was because of racketeering,
or at least that was tiie main reason given.
Yesterday I inquired of your views regarding the use of union funds
in private ventures. Do you remember that question I raised with you
yesterday ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes. sir, I do.
Senator Ives. Well, what do you think about it ?
Here you have tax-exempt funds, tax-free funds, that you are bor-
rowing from the miion and turning into private ventures. Do you
think that is the right thing to do? I am asking you to be honest.
You got into til is question of honesty. Now be honest.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I am not going to make any different statement
to that question tlian I did before. I said that I did not see anything
wrong with it, I did not agree with the ethical practice rviles, but I
would comply witli them.
Senator Ives. Unfortunately, I disagree with you wholeheartedly on
that.
If necessary, we may have to pass legislation where that matter
is concerned.
5174 EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Now, Mr. Chairman, I have just one more question I would like
to ask the witness.
Do you think that convicted strikebreakers who accept bribes, as in
the case involving I\Ir. Sidney Brennan, should be allowed to hold high
office in labor organizations? I understand that Mr. Brennan, vice
president of the teamsters in Minneapolis, Minn., was convicted of vio-
lating a section of the Taft-Hartley Act making unlawful the receipts
by employee representatives of money or any other thing of value from
employers.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. Do you approve of his holding office ?
I have asked everybody else this question. I asked Johnny Dio
this, and, of course, he could not answer because he took the fifth.
I will give you tliis much credit, by golly you have not taken the
fifth, but you are doing a marvelous job crawling around it.
Now, what have you got to say about that ?
Mr. PIoFFA. "Well, I say, s])eaking just for myself, that each indi-
vidual case, and llie background of the case, must be taken into consid-
eration before you make a decision.
Senator Ives. All right. What do you say about this case ?
Mr. HoFFA. I know some part of this case, because I was a witness
in this particular trial concerning a contractual relationship between
employers and this particular union, and, knowing the background, 1
was somewhat understanding as to how Brennan became involved in
this particular problem, and in doing so it was agreed that his case
would be appealed to the highest court.
But, however, since then Brennan's conviction was upheld, and it
is my opinion Breninin will not run for reelection in the coming con-
vention of the teamsters union.
Senator Imss. Suppose he does. Are you going to be for him or
against him ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. I have told Sidney that in my opinion he
should not run for offi.ce.
Senator I\t:s. Then it is your firm conviction that in a situation like
that people should not hold office in labor organizations, is that right?
^ Mr. HoFFA. In cei-tain circumstances, and that is one of them, yes,
sir.
Senator I^^s. Would you object to having a provision of that na-
ture put in the statutes ?
Mr. HoFFA. If it could be based upon each factual case.
Senator I\'es. You cannot base a statute upon each factual case.
You have to enact it for general application.
Mr. HoFFA. That is the problem, sir.
Senator I^"ES. All right. I understand it is. But would you ob-
ject to such a law ?
Mr. HoFFA. If you would take each case into
Senator Ia'es. You cannot take each case.
Mr. HoFFA. Then I would have to say that I would want to reserve
the right until I saw the legislation drafted and discussed it with my
lawyers before I made an observation on it.
Senator Iyes. Well, I wish you would come across frankly on these
things.
Mr. HoFFA. I am trying to tell you my personal views.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5175
Senator Ives. Well, you are not satisfying me at all.
All right, Mr. Chairman.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Kennedy. May I just make one point?
May I say that we have made an examination of the record this
morning, and your answers regarding Johnny Dio, and found that
in answers to 49 questions, you equivocated, and in answers to 24 other
questions you said you coundn't or wouldn't answer.
The Chairman. Senator McNamara ?
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, the witness indicates that he
needs something to refresh his memory in relation to these matters
concerning Dio. I would like to ask him some questions based on the
testimony we had from Mr. Hickey on August 16, 1957, before this
committee.
The Chairman. All right, Senator, you may proceed.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Just a moment. Senator McNamara has the floor.
Senator McNamara. I will be glad to yield.
Senator Curtis. I am sorry.
Senator McNamara. Starting at the top of page 2616 of the hear-
ings, Mr. Kennedy asks the question :
And that meeting was held at the Hampshire House in New York City?
Mr. Hickey. It was.
The purpose of this is to identify the place of tlie meeting.
To continue:
Mr. Kennedy. And at that time, had you understood by that time that Mr. Dio
was being backed in his efforts by Mr. James Holla?
Mr. Hickey. Mr. Hoffa at that meeting asked Mr. Beck to give the charter to
102.
Mr. Kennedy. And to Mr. John Dio?
Mr. Hickey. Well, Dio represented the local union at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. So, if the charter was given to local 102, it would be a teamster
charter that would be granted to Johnny Dio, is that right?
Mr. Hickey. That is correct.
I want to pause here and ask you : Is that correct ?
If the charter was granted, would it be granted to Mr. Johnny Dio ?
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Hickey could place his construction on it, but I
was requesting that the charter be given to the officers who were head-
ing up 102 of the UAW, and John Dio I do not believe was an officer.
Therefore, his construction, I believe, is incorrect.
Senator McNamara. Suppose I ask you the question that Mr. Ken-
nedy asked Mr. Hickey and see what your answer would be.
The question was:
If the charter was given to local 102, it would be a teamster charter that would
ibe granted to Johnny Dio, is that right?
I am asking you.
Mr. Hoffa. It w^ould not be a teamster charter granted to Johnny
Dio. It would be a teamster charter granted to the officers of 102.
Senator McNamara. Then apparently you disagree with this testi-
jnony that we had at this point '\
Mr. Hoffa. I said that I did not believe that Hickey put the right
interpretation on it.
Senator McNamara. Let us continue that.
5176 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy goes on :
And that is in 1953 at the meeting at the Hampshire House?
Mr. HicKEY. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And did Dio talk to the meeting as to what his position had been
in tlio taxicab organizational drive?
IMr. HicKEY. He went on to tell that he had been engaged in this business for
about a year or so. I believe, and that he had spent somewhere around $200,000,
and the.v were willing to spend $200,000 more if they could get a charter from
the teamsters. This was either Dio or Doria who said this.
I\Ir. Kennedy. Doria was there also?
IMr. Hickey. Doria was there, that is correct.
Xow I want to ask vou a question on that part of tlie testimony. Do
yon think that tlie I'AAV-AFL spent $-200,000 prior to tliis time m an
attempt to organize the taxicab drivers ?
(At tliis point. Senator McClelhm ^Yithdrew' from the hearing
room.)
Mr, HoFFA. I Avoukl question whetlier or not $200,000 wonkl have
been spent in that period of time, but I just say I would question it
because T could be wrong.
Senator ]McXamara. It goes on. ^h\ Kennedy asked:
Did you express opposition on this?
That is, the taking over because of the $200,000, I take it.
Mr. Kickey said :
I opposed them bitterly. There is no question about that.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you say?
Mr. Hickey. I told them that the teamsters were well able to take care of the
taxicab drivers, that they had been the forgotten man of the industry, and that
we had an organization setup, we had enough people working for the teamsters
union to take care of their situation as it should be taken care of, and that we
didn't need any help or advice fr(»m the I'AW.
Mr. Kennedy. What did Mr. Hoffa say at this meeting?
Mr. Hickey. Mr. HotTa interceded for Mr. Dio, and indicated that the teamsters
were in m> position to organize them, that our efforts would not be as successful
as 102*s efforts under Mr. Dio.
It goes on in that vein.
I was Avondering if tliis $200,000 business and his reference to you
and Dio woukl not refresh your memory as you were asking for it to
be refreshed about that point.
Mr. HoFFA. Welk I can say that apparently Tom was confused,
because he said either Dio or Doria did the talking. I think he was
just as confused, probably, in this period of time, as I would be, and,
apparently, from the discussion there he isn't too far away from
agreeing with what I have been trying to say, that I was trying to get
the charter, our charter, to take the place of 102 and the officers of
that local imion to come with it.
Senator McXamara. AVere you largely motivated by the feeling
that a lot of money had been spent, and that you wanted to take ad-
vantage of the organization that was created by the expenditure of
the money by these people ?
]Mr. Hoffa. That as well as the fact that there were experienced
actual cabdrivers at the head of that organization.
Senator McXaimara. Now we have some testimony and I don't want
to bother to read it, that indicates that you were assigned to this
meeting in Xew York.
Do vou remember whether that was true or not?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5177
Mr. HoFFA. I ])robab]y avouIcI not have gone to the meetino- unless
somebody gave me an assignment, ^
Senator McNamara. The indication in the testimony we have is
tliat yon were there as Mr. Hickey was, on assignment by Dave Beck.
Mr. HoFFA. I could very well have been.
Senator McNamara. Why were you involved in the New York
situation in the first place?
Mr. HoFFA. Because of the friendship, I assume, that I had with
Dona, or at least the acquaintance that I had with Doria which mio-ht
lend to adjust tlie problem. ^
Also, Dave Previant was the lawyer for the UAW and a lawyer for
central conference.
Senator McNamara. So that you had a natural tie-in on this and,
furthermore, you were assigned by the general president.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know if it would be the general president. I
would probably get a notification to appear there.
Senator McNamara. Your normal field of operations was in Mich-
igan and the central States, and so that is why I asked you the
question.
Mr. HoFFA. Otlier than assignment, that is right. I have the South
as well as central States, but then I go to other territories on assign-
ments by other individuals.
Senator McNamara. You were assigned here by Dave Beck, is that
the best of your recollection ?
Mr. HoFFA. No ; I would not say that, sir, and I would say somebody
from tlie international assigned me and it could be Mohn or it could
be Beck, whoever arranged the meeting.
Senator McNamara. Well, then, the meeting, according to the testi-
mony, was arranged by Dave Beck.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, still it could have been Mohn or Beck that told
me, because Beck Avould piobably be in touch with Mohn and unless
he called me, it could be either one'of the two, sir.
Senator McNamara. And Ilickey was assigned there as an interna-
tional representative. He is what you term a general organizer?
Mr. HoFP^A. A general organizer and a vice president.
Senator McNamara. And you were assigned no doubt on the same
basis ?
Mr. HoFFA. As a vice president.
Senator McNamara. You were in the same role as Hickey at the
meeting ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think, trying to be a kind of arbitrator between two
d liferent views.
Senator McNamara. In the teamsters union there Avere no conflict-
mg views between Beck and Hickey, were there ? Were they not of
the same view ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Beck and you and Hickey were representing
the teamsters union, and were there others ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I vaguely recall the meeting only because of the
testnnony of Mr. Hickey that such a meeting took place in the Hamp-
sliire House and I am trying to answer these questions.
Senator McNamara. How did you involve yourself in that meeting ?
Was that your only reason for injecting yourself at the meeting?
5178 nUPROPER ACTIVITIElS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. No, I had the meeting in Florida, if you will recall,
prior to going to Chicago.
Senator McNamara. This was of the same nature ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. You were involved in it purely on the basis of
organizing the taxicab drivers ?
Mr. PIoFFA. And an attempt to get the UAW out and get them into
our organization.
Senator McNamara. Have you attempted to organize cabdrivers
in other cities?
Mr. HoFFA. Very definitely, sir.
Senator McNamara. Do you have an organization of cabdrivers in
Detroit?
Mr. IIoFFA. We have an organization of cabdrivers.
Senator McNamara. What portion of the industry does it cover ?
Mr. IIoFFA. One particularly large independent company and some
of the smaller comj^anies in the suburbs.
Senator McNamara. You would say 20 or 25 percent ?
Mr. IIoFFA. Somewhere around there; yes, sir. It is a very difficult
industry to organize.
Senator McNaoMara. Do you have any organization of cabdrivers
in other cities?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes; we have cabdrivers in Chicago, St. Louis, and I
believe in Cleveland, and I believe in most of the cities of a large nature
Ave have some semblance of organization of the cabdrivers.
Senator McNamara. Do you have any city where they are pretty
well organized ; is Chicago well organized ?
Mr. HoFFA. Chicago is a well organized local union, and Kansas
City, I believe, and I believe St. Louis and I believe Cleveland, and in
various cities they have been able to organize the industry quite well.
Senator McNamara. AYliat portion of the industry did local 102
of UAW have organized in New York when you were trying to
deal with them to take over the organization? Percentagewise do
you think it was 5 percent or 10 percent ?
Mr. HoFFA. I had so many conflicting stories, I could only give you
a guess. There were many statements made of 10,000 applications
and I heard from other people as many as 1,000 and so I could not
say. Senator.
Senator McNamara. I thought this conversation might refresh
your memory a little bit in connection with these matters, and ap-
parently it does not help.
Senator Curtis. ]SIr. Hoffa, in regard to the issue of whether or
not there was an alliance between underworld elements or men of bad
character and union work, I would like to ask you this question :
Did you in 1953 believe Dioguardi to be a man of good character
and reputation ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I would say, sir, that I was judging him on the basis
of that I was meeting with him and talking with him rather than
on past periods of time.
Senator Curtis. Now, will you answer my question? Will the re-
porter read it?
(The pending question was read by the reporter.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5179
Mr. HoFFA. I would have to answer that by saying — just a minute,
sir.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I will have to answer in my own way, Mr. Chairman.
In answer to your question, Senator, I would have to say that I
have to judge people as I find them, and even though he had a con-
viction, it would not necessarily mean that he could not have re-
habilitated himself and carried on an organization.
Senator Curtis. Did you in 1953 regard him as an individual of
good character and reputation?
Mr. HoFFA. In regards to — at that time I would say "Yes," at that
time. I cannot judge his past.
Senator Curtis. Do you now regard Dioguardi as a man of good
character and good reputation?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I would say that if the facts brought out by
this hearing are correct, then I would have to change my opinion of
the situation and judge accordingly after he has had the final oppor-
tunity to disprove those facts.
Senator Curtis. In the hearings on August 8, Dioguardi was be-
fore this committee and the distinguished chairman of this committee
asked Dioguardi :
Do you know Jimmy Hoffa?
Mr. Dioguardi. I respectfully decline to answer the question upon the ground
that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Wliy would his acquaintance with you incriminate him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I cannot judge why he would make such an
answer, except that I understand he is under indictment.
Senator I\'es. He has been convicted, but not sentenced.
Mr. HoFFA. He is under indictment, too, and I understand he is
under indictment, and he possibly felt anything that he said might
incriminate him.
Senator Curtis. If he would have answered that question "yes";
the question was, "Do you know Jimmy Hoffa?" the plain answer
of "yes" or "no" would have incriminated him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, from my observation, I am not a lawyer, I don't
know how it would have, but I can't tell from a legal standpoint
whether it would or not, sir.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, let us proceed.
Mr. IVENNEDY. Now, Mr. Hoffa, in view of these telphone calls, and
the ones that were played this morning, were you anxious or were you
trying to bring Johnny Dio into the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you want to consult your attorney on that?
Mr. HoFFA. He asked me.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I have to again make my own observation.
Mr. IVENNEDY. You Can't answer that "yes" or "no" ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, now, I don't think that you asked a yes or no
question.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I did. Would you repeat the question to the
witness ?
89330— 57— pt. 13 17
5180 IMPROPER ACTIVmEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD
(Question read by the reporter.)
Mr. HoFFA. I was trying to bring in 102 into our union.
Mr. KJENNEDY. How will you answer the question ?
Mr. HoFFA. John Dio was not a member or an officer of that local
and that is the best answer I can give you, because he had already
been rejected by President Beck.
The Chairman. Mr. Ploli'a, you keep repeating jou were trying to
bring 102 of the UAW into the teamsters union. Were you also try-
ing, if necessary, to get Mr. Dio in there if it took that to get 102 in ?
Were yon trying to get Mr. Dio in there ?
Mr. IIoFFA. I would answer by saying that if that would liave been
the only way we could liave worked it out, and Mr. Beck was agree-
able, I would have been agreeable. Maybe tliat is the answer, sir.
The Chairman. That is a start. That is a good start.
Mr. KeniXedy. Xow, let me ask you, Was that the only way that
you could get him in? Did somebody in the teamsters sa}', "We
won't take 102 unless you bring Johnny Dio" 'i
Mr. IIoFFA. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Nobody ever raised that question and nobody in
the teamsters ever said, "We are not going to take local 102 in unless
you bring Johnny Dio in'' i
Mr. HoFFA. Well, now, I don't think so, or I don't quite gather
your question, as to what it means.
Mr. Kennedy. You said you would bring him in if that was tiie
only way to get 102 in.
Mr. IIoFFA. No ; I said I would have, but as I said before, though,
I did not make to my recollection that statement. Senator McClellan
asked me a question and I tried to answer him.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me ask you again, Mr. Hoffa: Were you per-
sonally, Jimmy Hoffa, anxious to brmg Jolni Dio into the teamsters
union, in view of the conversations that have been played so far?
Mr. Hoffa. I do not recall
Mr. IvENNEDY. You cau't remember anything.
Mr. Hoffa. the question of bringing Johnny Dio in tlie
teamsters union raised by myself. That is the best I can tell
you. Nov', if you can refresh my recollection of it I will be
glad to answer.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You Were talking to Mr. Dio during this period
of time and you met with him in Miami, and you talked to him a
number of other times. What was Mr. Dio's attitude? Was he
anxious to come into tlie teamsters union ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, all I can tell you is as I stated before, that Mr.
Dio was anxious to keep organizing the cabdrivers in the UAW-AFL.
Wiether or not he was anxious to come in the teamsters, he would
have to answer.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, don't you know that he was? Don't
you personally know that ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir, Senator, I can't by recollection say he ever told
me that, and I don't recall if he ever did.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Didn't you have conversations in that connection ?
Mr. Hoffa. I have conversations of bringing the members?
Mr. Kennedy. What were the two of j^ou working together for.
during this period of time, if it was not for the same end ? Why was
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5181
he reporting or getting a report that you were optimistic about everv-
tiimg, and you were trying to get this information on Tom Hickev
and you were trymg to get this information on Tom Hickey's as-
sociate, if you both were not working together for the same obiec-
tive i Can you explain that to the committee ?
Mr. HoFFA. My objective was to bring in the UAW.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Don't keep repeating that, Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. HoFFA. I am answering the question.
Mr. Kennedy. You are not answering at all. What is your answer?
-Let us accept the fact that you wanted to bring the UAW-AFL into
the teamsters.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
. Mr. Kennedy. You don't have to ever say that again. Now, this
IS not the ma]or question that we are looking into, and we are locking
mto the question of whether you were trying to bring Jolinny Dio
into the teamsters movement. What is the answer to that^
Let me ask you this: Weren't you and Jolinny Dio working to-
gether so that he could get a charter from the teamsters union?
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot say that Jolinny Dio was working with me in
un^ucceSuir""- " ^' ™'^ '""'''"' *^' ^^"^ ^^^ ^'""'^ ^
Mr. HoFFA. In what?
Mr. Kennedy. In this. You said you could not have been work-
qulsti'om ' '''''' ^'' ^'^ ^'"' ^'' ""^- ^^'^' h^^dly answeiTthe
Mr Hoffa Mr Kennedy, and Mr. Chairman, may I make an ob-
sei;vation, rather than trying to carry this on, sir. ^
"y2'o?™'''^''' ^^'"' ^^^ '"'' "''^'" ^ ""'^y '^'""'^ «^« ^"d say
Mr. HoFFA. I could have taken this case to the executive board and
appealed over the head of the general president, if I desired because
under our constitution I have that privilege. I diHot press the
F^ua^^rss, ^?^j^rsr^^'^"^ '^ '-- ^-^--^ -^ -
Mr. Hoffa. That is right
Febnn^y rm- '^Y.'?,*!*''" ^™™'^='.«°°^ take place subsequent to
how you felt about things, and you are opti" isS abou?f f 1^1'"'^
Su¥"?r "^"■■""" ^^«ClellanrS:L^ir:«!M'uSt'GX;"att Cd
diS^i^'lSr'^eleSte^
5182 IMPROPER AcrrvrriES in the labor field
If you were not pressing it, and if it was not being carried forward
as a project between you and Dio, can you explain why all these con-
vei*sations and these plans and the meetings in New York?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I was referring to after the charter was issued
and they went out of the taxicab drive at that time.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Hoffa, the record is pretty clear, from what
you have told us, that you were trying to bring the membership of
the UAW union and you were trying to bring the oflGicers of the UAW
union into the teamsters union; right?
Mr. HoFFA. I was trying to bring the members and the officers.
Senator Mundt. Right. Now, what did you think was going to
happen to Mr. Dio after you took his membership and you took his
union and you took his officers ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator Mundt, Dio, I believe, was president of 649.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, Mr. Dio ran local 102. He was business
manager of local 102.
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. But also 649.
Senator Muxdi'. You were going to take his union, you were going
to take his members, his organization and treasury. What would you
have done with Dio?
Mr. HoFFA. He would have had local 649 of the UAW.
Senator Mundt. He wouldn't have 102 after you took it away from
him.
The CHAiRiiAN. The Chair regretfully announces that the Senators
have other duties to perform, and that is a rollcall in the Senate. It
will be necessary to have a recess of the committee until we can return.
(Thereupon, a brief recess was taken at 3 : 03 p. m.)
(Members of the select committee present at the taking of the recess
were: Senators McClellan, Ives, Curtis, McNamara, Mundt, and
Gold water.)
The Chairiman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present after the recess were:
Senators McClellan, Ives, Goldwater, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. It is anticipated that we will have to return for
another vote again sometime this afternoon, maybe right away, but
we will proceed and do as much as we can.
All right. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, I want to come back to the subject of
Mr. John Dio. I want to ask you again what your attitude, what
your position, was following the meeting on February 9, what your
position was as far as bringing Dio into the teamsters union.
Mr. Fitzgerald. ]\Iay I — ; —
(The witness confererd with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Again I have to repeat, and. I thought I answered the
question, that I attempted in the meeting that you discussed, in the
Hampshire House, to the best of my recollection, bringing in the offi-
cers of 102.
However, I made a statement in answer to Mr. McClellan — excuse
me, sir — Senator McClellan — ^that if it would have been necessary I
wouldn't have hesitated in bringing in Dio.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5183
But I do not recall making such a statement, or that it could be
construed, because listening to the refreshment of Senator McNamara,
it seems to me that Mr. Hickey was somewhat confused also, because
he didn't know whether Dio or Doria was having the conversation.
Mr. Kennedy. He was very clear on the point that you were at-
tempting to bring Dio into the teamsters union. He was very clear
on that. Now, what was Mr. Dio's position ? Did he want to get a
charter with the teamsters union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Dio would have to answer that question, but I do
not believe, if you want me to surmise, that he would have turned down
one. But he wanted to get those people who were officers into our
organization.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he indicate to you during this period of
time that his position was on the teamster charter ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think, in all due respect to you Senators, I have made
as much of a statement, unless I keep repeating, as I can recollect that
happened.
(At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA. Unless you can refresh my memory, I just can't do
any better.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember anything he said to you about
getting a teamster charter ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think it would have been that important. Un-
less Hickey would have made that statement he made concerning the
Hampshire House meeting, I don't think that I could have refreshed
my memory on that particular meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. I understand that.
You testified that you can't remember at all what Mr. Dio's posi-
tion during this period of time was regarding getting a teamster
charter ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't say that. I said to the best of my recollection,
unless you can refresh my memory, I can't recall a conversation.
Mr. Kennedy. He was obviously working together.
Now, starting back in the telephone conversation we made of Feb-
ruary 26, 1953, he was recording that local 102 had received some op-
position from Mr. Strong, who worked for Mr. Hickey. He was
reporting to you about the interference.
^ Then on March 10, 1953, you told him that somebody had been put-
ting the rap in against him, but that you, yourself, would be there, in
there, to defend him, or defend it.
Then we see from these other conversations that Mr. Dio was work-
ing, that you were optimistic and he was working with you in this
matter, that he was trying to get this information together regarding
Hickey, regarding Hickey's associates.
So I would think that if you used your mind, that you might be
able to think of what was going on during that period of time, Mr.
Hoffa, as far as what you and Johnny Dio were trying to do.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I will have to stand on the answers that I have
made in regards to my recollection, and I cannot answer unless you
can give me some recollection other than I have answered.
5184 IMPROPER ACTIVmEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I have tried to give you four of them, but we will try
to give you a couple more.
]\Ir. HoFFA. All right.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. When the rollcall took us over to the Senate. I had
just asked you a question and I think you had not yet answered it:
Wliat did you think was going to happen to Johnny Dio if you suc-
ceeded in taking away from him the union of w^hich he was the busi-
ness manager and putting it over in the teamsters?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator Mundt, I thought I answered it. I will ans-
wer it, if I didn't.
Senator Mundt. If you did, I did not get it.
Mr. HoFFA. He was president of local 649, I believe, and he would
have still remained president of that local union, the UAW.
Senator Mundt. That was not involved. He was president •whether
or not UAW came with the teamsters ; is that correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. It did not change his status in 649 ?
Mr. HoFFA. From what I understand of his position, that is right.
Senator Mundt. So whatever income he made, whatever money he
made, as a business agent for UAW would cease to come to him if
UAW went with the teamsters, unless Dio was in on the package; is
that correct ?
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I really don't know whether or not he was paid
by the UAW for that particular job.
Senator Mundt. I suppose if he is a business manager, he gets a
salary ; does he not ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know whether his salary was dependent on
whether or not it was the cabs, plus his otJier duties.
Senator Mundt. 649 had nothing to do with the cabs ; is that right ?
102 w^as the one with the cabs ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that is right.
Senator Mundt. So that he was a business agent for 102 ; right ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think he was. I think that somebody termed
him as a business manager. Didn't they?
Senator Mundt. Business manager. All right. Business manager
for a union is not like working for the Salvation Army. You do
not volunteer just for the love of the cause. You do that because
you get some income ; do you not ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, Senator, I wouldn't say that that statement is
correct. Many people have worked for unions without pay.
Senator Mundt. In other words — yes. We have an abmidance of
evidence, Mr. Hoffa, that Johnny Dio was actually running 102, but
taking your definition of it, that he was business manager, certainly
a business manager of a union has some source of income. He isn't
doing that as just a walking eleemosynary institution. He has to
live, he has to have income. There is nothing wrong with that. I
do not know whether he works on a commission, whether he works on
a salary or on an expense account, whatever it is. Certainly he gets
some source of income from being business manager of a union.
Is that not customary ?
Mr. HoFFA. From some unions.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5185
Senator Mundt. From some unions. I suppose it will be the union
he is trying to help, not some other union.
Mr. HoFFA. If you had more than one, he may draw a salary from
one and not the other until it was built up.
Senator Mundt. But he was working for a union so well estab-
lished that you wanted to bring into teamsters the officers of the union,
because they were experienced cabdrivers and experienced organizers,
you said.
Mr. HoFFA. 102.
Senator Mundt. 102. You were about to divest him of all connec-
tions, you are telling us now, with 102, because you were going to
take away from him the union, the officers, the franchise, everything.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, if it would have went through the way we pro-
posed, the way I proposed, I should say the officers of 102 would have
had their own charter.
Senator Mundt. That is right
Mr. HoFFA. And I assume he would have been out.
Senator Mundt. He would have been out?
Mr. PIoFFA. I assume that.
Senator Mundt. It is terribly hard for a country boy from South
Dakota to understand why a man, Dio or anybody else, would have
all of these telephone calls, make these trips to Chicago, to Washing-
ton, go all through this, just trying to cut off his own source of income,
]ust trying to deal himself out of the union. It seems to me his only
interest must have been to come along with the show.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I think you got to recognize the fact, from
the information I can gather, and I am sure you have better than
I do, that he was some sort of a representative of the UAW on a sub-
region basis in New York, and I believe that covered more than one
local union. So you would have the international problem to worry
about rather than a particular local union, and if the international
was paying him, and I don't know whether they were or not, it
wouldn't affect his salary if he gave up one local union.
Senator Mundt. This is a question I am sure you can answer:
In your own mind at the time, had your plan prevailed over the plan
that Mr. Beck preferred, and over the plan that others may have pre-
ferred— because you say this was a matter of controversy — had your
plan prevailed, which we clearly understand was to bring the union
and the officers over into the teamsters, did you expect that Dio
was going to come to the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. From what Beck told him, he would have not come
with the teamsters.
Senator Mundt. That is right.
We are wondering now what you told him, or what your under-
standing, or what your own comprehension was. Did you expect
him to come with the t-eamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I couldn't overrule President Beck.
Senator Mundt. You said you could have gone to the board.
Mr. HoFFA. I could have, but I didn't.
Senator Mundt. You are a pretty persuasive fellow. You might
have prevailed on Beck. He might have changed his mind. You
talked about it that time on the phone, and you are pretty good on
the forensics.
5186 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I recognize the fact that I could probably have had
some effect on the board, but whether or not it was worth getting
into a dispute on the board would have been a question, since Pres-
ident Beck had made a decision. The situation never developed
that far.
Senator Mundt. We could save a lot of time, and I guess this is
right down to the meat in the coconut, if you could tell the com-
mittee categorically either "Yes" or "No" if we ask you, did you
want to get Dio into your union? Were you trying to bring him
into the union ?
Did you expect him to come into the union; was he involved in
the package deal to come along? If you could tell us, "No, I was
interested only in the union and the officers, I was not concerned
about Dio," that is a definite answer.
Could you say, "Yes, I was going to take him," or could you even
tell us, "Yes, I was going to take him^ though I did not like him.
He was excess baggage; he was somethmg we did not want; he was
extra on the ship, but we had to bring him into the harbor with
the rest."
You were thinking about something and you know what you were
thinking about; we do not.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I was thinking primarily about the cab-
drivers in New York.
Senator Mundt. That is right, but you had to think a little about
Dio, because he kept calling you up at your home, at your hospital
bed, so you had to think about it.
What did you think about him? "Here comes Barnacle Bill,"
or what did you think about him ?
Mr. HoFFA. He was a person who could possibly help settle the
difference between our two unions and I did not want to have the
situation disturbed while it was in the process of discussion.
Senator Mundt. To avoid controversy, you were, with some re-
luctance, willing to buy him with the package, is that right?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I think I am on record that I said, and I do not
recall whether I said it there or not, or whether I mentioned it
during any of those conversations, but I am on record as saying
that if it had took that, I would have recommended that, even.
Senator Mundt. So ge got that far. At least you would have
taken him if you had to take him ?
Mr. HoFFA. If I would have had to, to organize the cabdrivers
in New York.
Senator Mundt. Can we go one step further? Did you really
think that you had to take him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, when the organization
Senator Mundt. Keeping the idea as you did, do you think you
would have had to take him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe so. We did not take him. That is the
best evidence, sir.
Senator Mundt. Beck is a pretty big, bulky individual. He stood
between taking him and not taking him.
Mr. HoFFA. That could have been a problem. It could have been
one of the answers, but I do not think it developed to tliat point.
Senator.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5187
Senator Mundt. All right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis?
Senator Curtis. I cannot understand why you would resist taking
iDioguardi. You have testified that in 1953 you regarded him of good
character and reputation. You have also testified that you were
friends ; you knew his family ; you had had dinner together.
If you did, why did you resist taking Dioguardi into your union?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, Senator, I didn't say — to the best of my recollec-
tion, nowhere in this record have I said that I resisted it. I said that
President Beck had made the statement.
Senator Curtis. Made what statement?
Mr. HoFFA. That Dio was not going to come into the teamsters
union. If you will recall it, I said it in the Miami meeting.
Senator Curtis. But I have watched you ; I have heard you sparring
back and forth here with counsel and others for a long time, trying
to escape responsibility for taking Dioguardi into your union.
Mr. HoFFA. Dioguardi did not come into the teamsters union with
the cab drive.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. Shall we proceed ?
Senator Mundt. He did get in, did he not ?
Mr. HoFFA. He did not get into the cab union, sir.
Senator Mundt. To the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFTA. No, sir; not to my knowledge. I don't think today —
I don't think the records will ever show that he was a member of the
teamsters. To my knowledge, he was not, at least, and I have inquired
around and nobody seems to have any difference of opinion. So I
wouldn't know.
Senator Mundt. Was he not involved in some of these paper locals ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I have heard it alleged as such, but I do not have
any proof to the best of my knowledge, sir, that he was in it.
The Chairman. Distribute the transcripts of the next recording.
(At this point. Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
(Members present at this point were Senators McClellan, Ives,
Mundt, Gold water, Curtis, and McNamara.)
Mr. Kennedy. Just on this other one, this Kavner one, the conver-
sation that Mr. Dio had with Mr. Kavner, that is Mr. Kavner that was
mentioned this morning ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
Mr. KJENNEDY. That is Mr. Kavner that came to see the trial, is that
right?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, and also on business.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, once again the evidence would seem
to indicate — I will put it stronger than that — there seems to be no
other alternative than that the evidence indicates that Mr. Dio and
Mr. Hoffa were working together during the period of time, and
that Mr. Dio was anxious to get into the teamsters union, and he was
Hot ready to give up his organization, and that he wanted to get a
teamster charter and he was working with Mr. Hoffa toward that
end. They had a number of conversations, and they attempted to
get this information on Mr. Hickey's associate, and on Mr. Hickey,
and in addition they were plotting their strategy as to how they
5188 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
would handle the matter prior to the meeting in New York at the
Hampshire House.
The Chairman. All right. Let us be quiet now, and let us have
the recording.
(The transcript of telephone conversation between Jimmy Hoffa
and Johnny Dio on May T, 1953, is as follows :)
Opeeatob. Mr. James Hoffa?
Man's Voice. Yeah, you got him?
Operator. Well, I'm ringing the number now, sir.
Man's Voice. All right; see if he's there. The party just walked in.
OPB31ATOB. Oh, good. Thank you.
Man's Voice. Yeah. What?
Operator. Who's calling from New York?
Man's Voice. John Dio.
Operator. Mr. John Deal
Man's Voice. Dio. D-i-o.
Operator. Dio?
Man's Voice. Yeah. Oh, oh ; he's calling; I thought
Operator. Yes.
Man's Voice. Oh, you're calling Hoffa, John; I thought Hoffa was calling
you, the way she spoke.
Operator Voice. No, he — called yesterday
Man's Voice. O. K., the girl went out, that's why I didn't know.
Operator. Uh-huh.
Man's Voice. Yeah, all right
Operator. And he asked us to try the number at 12 o'clock today for him.
Man's Voice. O. K., O. K. ; try the number.
Operator. Well. I'm waiting now
Man's Voice. George just called up; they're still in Morristown — ^just this
minute.
Hoffa. Hello, Johnny.
Dio. How are you, Jim?
Hoffa. All right. How are you?
Dio. All right, did you have a good plane ride that night?
Hoffa. I think I had a pretty good one, yes, Johnny.
Dio. I had a miserable one
Hoffa. How did? Rough, eh?
Dio. Oh, J— C — . I never thought I'd come back.
Hoffa. Well, you know what they say — the devil don't want you and
Dio. That's right — the devil don't want me. I guess they want good people.
Hoffa. (laughter).
Dio. So I'm going to be pretty bad, Jim.
Hoffa. You and I are pretty safe.
Dio. (laughter).
Hoffa. (laughter).
Dio. What's new Jim?
Hoffa. Nothing ; everything seems to be all right, Jack.
Dio. Uh-huh?
Hoffa. Don't hear much
Dio. Uh-huh ; have you talked to that man yet?
Hoffa. I talked to Beck the other day and he told me he should [inaudible]
this committee when [inaudible] to New York.
Dio. Uh-huh.
Hoffa. Now I haven't heard from him exactly what the committee is, but I'll
talk with him this afternoon at 3 o'clock and I'll remind him again about this
committee.
Dio. Uh-huh. Well, all right, Jim; I just thought I'd give you a buzz, you
know.
Hoffa. Yes, John.
Dio. I'll tell you what I'm gonna do though. We're lining up — I think we're
going to have about 20 strikes before that meeting.
Hoffa. Well, that's good.
Dio. You know what I mean?
Hoffa. I think it's good ; it will stimulate the activities.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5189
Dio. It will stimulate the activities and don't let the other guy them
how much he controls.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. You know what I mean?
HoFFA. Right
Dig. Well, the reason before I pulled it I thought I'd consult with you on it.
HoFFA. I think that's [inaudible] show him who the got the people.
Dio. O. K., I've had some very nice committee meetings and, by the way,
I was reelected Sunday in my industrial for 4 more years.
HoFFA. You didn't think I had any doubt about that, did you?
Dig. Well, I was worried.
HoFFA. Oh, yeah; you looked it.
Dio. I mean it.
HoFFA. Ho, ho, ho
Dio. I'm not — look, Jim
HOFFA. Huh?
Dio. I'm never too cocky. After I got it done then I know it's over.
HoFFA. Remember what I told you about my opinion of how workers [in-
audible] treat 'em right and you don't have to worry.
Dio. Well, I saw a movie the other day and it said the whole world goes
with a lover, and I guess they go with the underdog too.
HoFFA. Well, I don't know. I say this — all you got to do is treat union guys
right and they're all O. K.
Dio. Well, anyway, next week, Jim ; I'm going to be out there to that wedding.
you know.
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. I hope you're there.
HoFFA. I'll be in town.
Dio. Good. •
HoFFA. Fine.
Dio. All right then ; give my regards to Bert.
HoFFA. I'll do it, Johnny.
Dio. Right.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. Bye.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair for just a moment? I
wanted to make sure that my objection originally to these intercep-
tions or recordings of interceptions is continued to all of them so I
won't disturb you any more about it.
The Chairman. They have. The record will so show, and the rec-
ord each time will show the same objection made, and the same ruling
by the Chair.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Chairman, once again, this recording as
well as the other recordings that have been made, show that Mr. Hoffa
and ]Mr. Dio were working together in this matter.
The Chairman. The Chair will order, also, that the transcript of
each recording played be inserted in the record immediately after it is
played. You Avill do that, Mr. Reporter.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Hoffa, can you tell us what, starting on
page 3, 3'ou say :
I talked to Beck the other day and he told me about the committee in New
York—
what were j^ou reporting to Mr. Dio about that ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, apparently when Dio called, and — just a moment,
if I can get the date here.
The Chairman. May 7.
Mr. Hoffa. Tliat was the 13th, the meeting at the Hampshire
House.
The Chairman. This was on May 7.
5190 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Apparently when Dio called he was inquiring as to
what committee would meet, and I did not know, and probably told
him I am going to find out and let him know, according to this.
Mr. Kennedy. Does this refresh your recollection at all as to
whether you were trying to bring Dio into the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. It does not refresh my recollection of trying to bring
him in. It refreshes my recollection it was doing what I have been
saying all day, to bring the cab union into the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Does it refresh your recollection that you were try-
ing to build him up and build that organization up prior to the meet-
ing so that you would have to bring them into the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. I would say it necessarily would go to the cab union, it
would have been built up with 20 strikes, which I would not object to,
and it would have proven my point.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dio was keeping you informed as to the strikes,
as he says down here, "The reason before I pull it I thought I would
consult with you on it."
He was consulting with j^ou, and he was your representative in that
area.
Mr. HoFFA. Certainlv he was not my representative. He was rep-
resenting the UAW-AFL.
Mr. Kennedy. But the point is, Mr. Hoffa, in this area as has been
reported to you already, on February 26, 1953, there was activity
among the teamsters, and there was activity among the teamsters to
try to organize the cabdrivers. Here is Mr. Dio also trying to organ-
ize the cabdrivers, and it is obvious from this that you are siding with
Mr. Dio against your own teamsters organization.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it does not necessarily, from my way of read-
ing it, and I understand there are more ways than one to read the
English language. It would seem to me what this indicates is that
I was trying to preserve an organization we were trying to take
in, or enlarge the organization so if it came in, the way I was trying
to suggest, it would be an organization. It seems to me that he
Mr. Kennedy. This is what Dio said to you : "I think we are
going to have 20 strikes before that meeting." "Well, that is nice,"
you said. "You know what I mean? I think it's good; it will
stimulate the activities." ^Vliy did you want to stimulate the activi-
ties before this meeting ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is necessary to keep stimulation in any organizing
drive and I suggested it be stimulated so if we took it over, it would
have been an organization worth taking over.
Mr. KJENNEDY. That is not an answer to the question. It is prior
to the committee meeting. That is what it is connected to. You
wanted to stimulate and have Mr. Dio's activities in New York with
the taxicab drivers stimulated before the committee meeting, so it
would appear that they were active. Wliy is it that you wanted to side
with the UAW, Mr. John Dio, rather than with your own teamsters
organization that was active in this field ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, as I stated earlier in this discussion,
I don't believe we had an organization that was actually organizing
cabdrivers, because there was no cab local in New York.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5191
Mr. HoFFA. I was trying to, and again reading this testimony here,
trying to keep that organization apparently in force to see whether or
not we would take it over.
Mr. IvENNEDY. That could not be possible. On February 26, Mr.
Dio called you and told you that the organization was active in New
York, and it was causing him trouble, and that is the time you said,
"I will call Mr. Beck about it" ; and so it could not be possible, and
you can't possibly say you did not know that.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't understand what I did not know.
Mr. IvENNEDY. That you did not know that the teamsters were
active in the taxicab field in New York ; on February 26 Johnny Dio
called you and told you that they were active.
Mr. HoFFA. You gave the copy of the tap? Then it refreshed
my memory from what was in there, to the best I could do on it, that
John Strong was apparently trying to organize some cabdrivers.
Now, that does not necessarily mean that Jolin Strong had a right to
organize cabdrivers. His charter did not cover cabdrivers.
Mr, Kennedy. Now, the point is that you knew at the time that
this conversation was held that the teamsters were interested under
John Strong in organizing the taxicabs, and yet you were siding with
Johnny Dioguardi, and his organization and his activities, against
your own teamsters in New York City.
Mr. HoFFA. Because I was trying to bring that organization into
the teamsters union.
Mr, Kennedy. Why were you trying to stimulate the activities so
it would look active prior to the committee meeting? Why would
you want to do that, unless you wanted to try to build this organiza-
tion up to appear active and have them get the charter, rather than
the teamsters organization get the charter ; namely, Mr. Hickey get the
charter ?
Mr, HoFFA, Probably to win my point of having that organization,
take over the charter, rather than issue a new charter.
Mr. Ivennedy. That is correct.
Mr, HoFFA. That would probably be, but it does not necessarily
follow that John Dio would go with the charter, as I tried to outline.
Mr. Kennedy. You wanted this organization to take over, because
you wanted to get a foothold in New York City and you wanted to
circumvent Tom Hickey, and you knew if he operated the taxicabs, or
if his people operated the taxicabs, you would be out then.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, the best evidence I can give to this committee,
with all due respect to you, we don't have the cabdrivers today.
The Chairman. Let me ask you, Mr. Hoffa, was not that in the
jurisdiction of Mr. Hickey ?
Mr. HoFFA. In New York City, yes, miless the general president
would assign somebody else.
The Chairman. Did he assign you to it?
Mr. HoFFA. Apparently he did or I would not have been there.
I think according to that transcript Mr. McNamara read, I myself
have been assigned there.
The Chairman. Do you have anything you can recall ?
Mr, HoFFA, I can't, except when Senator McNamara read.
The Chairman, Isn't that a most unusual thing?
Mr, HoFFA. I don't think so.
r
5192 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. It looked like you were just, what do you call it
in labor organizations, raiding, kind of raiding Hickey's territory.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, of course, I do not think Vice President Ilickey
has any territory staked out as such as Vice President Hickey's ter-
ritory, and I was to go in there on an assignment, it could not pos-
sibly be misconstrued as raiding.
The Chaieman. You have not said there was an assignment yet.
Mr. HoFFA. I say that the refreshment that Senator McNamara
read to me, out of Hickey's testimony, indicates that there was.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Now, Mr. Hoffa, what is it you are referring to
there?
Mr. HoFFA. ^Vliat is that?
Mr. Kennedy. What is it you are referring to, where it says Mr.
Beck appointed you in New York ? There was nothing like that read
in the transcript.
Mr. IIoFFA. There was a committee, and again I believe that Sena-
tor McNamara somewhere read, or we discussed, and I can't recall
whicli, the fact that there was a committee and he asked me whether
Beck sent me in there or who sent me in. I think if you will check
the record, that was what Senator McNamara says.
Mr. KENNEDY. Well, answer it.
Senator McNamara., I think maybe the suggestion is a good one to
-check the record, but I definitely remember I was not reading from
the transcript at that point. I was asking you how coine you were
there, and it was a verbal conversation, and not read from the record.
I was asking you if you were assigned there, and you indicated that
you did not remember very well, but apparently you and Hickey
were both assigned ; that is what I got out of it. That was not from
the record. It was immediately following where I had been reading
from the record.
Mr. I^NNEDY. I saw the record open, and you had been reading
and I thought you were reading on. I could not, even then, come to a
conclusion.
Senator McNamara. I will find it, Mr. Chairman, where my con-
versation with Mr. Hickey indicated that both he and Hofi'a were
assigned by the general president. This is Hickey's testimony, and
not yours. I will find it, and I am looking for it now.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Again, going back to this transcript, it says :
I think it is good, it will stimulate the activities.
You wanted to get the UAW activities stimulated just before this
committee meeting?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I assume, from the telephone tap, that I did.
Mr. KJENNEDY. I don't understand, if they had such an active or-
ganization and such a good organization, why it would be necessary
to stimulate this activity before the meeting.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, of course, I think on page 4, at the top, is the
answer to your question. That is the way it is read :
I think it showed him how they got the people.
If they have the people in the UAW, and they had members, they
would have additional members, and it may have had some weight j
to convincing the charter to be issued to that group of people.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5193
Mr. KJENNEDT. Well, it says here : "Will stimulate the activities, and
don't let the other guy know how much he controls." It was an
operation for the purpose of trying to impress this committee without
any evidence or basis of fact in it. You were trying to impress the
committee; you and Dio were trying to get activities just prior to the
committee meeting so that they would turn this organization over to
Johnny Dio rather than turn it over to the teamsters. It is just in-
credible to me that you would be turning against your own organi-
zation.
Mr. HoFFA. It wasn't a question of turning against the teamsters.
I tried to explain that we are trying to bring that organization into
the teamsters; I was trying to bring it into the teamsters. It was
not "out," but "into."
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat about Mr. Johnny Dio, who was working so
closely with you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, what about it ?
Mr. Kennedy. 'W'liat was he going to do ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I see here — all I can do is read what you gave
me — that he was elected for a period of 4 }^ears to the industrial, and
the industrial, I believe, was 649. So I said O. K. ; I have had some
very nice committee meetings and, by the way, I was elected by my
industrial for 4 more years. Apparently, he was anticipating staying
with the industrial; he just got elected.
Mr. Kennedy. You mean to say that he was planning and arrang-
ing, at that time, to give up the whole organization of local 102, and
these conversations that you had with him, and working together,
wasn't for the purpose of him coming into the teamsters, also?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know what he was anticipating, but the fact
remains that I was trying to bring 102 into the teamsters, where
the rightful jurisdiction belonged.
Mr. Kennedy. And you still can't recollect what your position was
on Johnny Dio. You still can't do that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that I have answered, unless you can refresh my
memory.
Mr. Kennedy. We have been trying to do that for 5 hours, and we
don't seem to be getting very far.
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer you something that I don't recollect or
recall. I don't think. Senator, I am called here to testify to something
that I don't have knowledge of or can't refresh my memory on.
Mr. Kennedy. This was pretty important, and you went down to
Miami and you met in New York, and you were active on the tele-
plione and you were active in meetings, and you can't remember any-
thing about it. All of this activity was with Mr. Johnny Dio.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, 30,000 members is a very important thing. There
were approximately in the potentiality of 30,000 new members for
the teamsters, and so it would be a very important project. It would
be very important.
Mr. Kennedy. I agree. I would think you would remember.
Mr. Chairman, again, on this same point — and we are tryirg our
best to help you refresh your recollection, Mr. Hoffa — could v, e play
another transcript of Mr. Hoffa ?
The Chairman. All right ; bring on the recording.
5194 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(Transcript of telephone conversation between Johnny Dio and
Jimmy Hoffa on May 12, 1953, follows:)
Woman's Voice. Just a moment, please.
Second woman's voice inaudible.
Man's Voice. Hello?
Second Man's Voice. Hello.
Woman's Voice. Just a moment, please. Are you Mr. Dioguardi?
Johnny Dio. That's right.
Woman's Voice. One moment, please. Mr. Dioguardi's on the line.
Voice inaudiable.
Dio. Hello.
Woman's Voice. He'll be right with you.
Dio. All right, thank you.
Jimmy Hoffa. Hello.
Dio. Hello, James.
Hoffa. Hello, Johnny; how are you?
Dio. How you feeling?
Hoffa. I feel good.
Dio. You still bouncing around, for C 's sake; don't you ever rest?
Hoffa. Ha, ha ; only the wicked rest.
Dio. Only the wicked?
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. Well, then, I'm not wicked.
HoFFA. O. K. ; you're w' orking.
Dio. Yeah. I — ah, I understand you're coming in town?
Hoffa. Coming in tonight.
Dio. Tonight.
Hoffa. Yeah, and I'll be there in the morning for that meeting in Einar
Mohn's room.
Dio. Well, can I pick you up today ?
Hoffa. Jim, I don't get in till 3 : 40 in the morning.
Dio. 3 : 40 in the morning.
Hoffa. Yeah ; there's no sense in you staying up that late
Dio. Aw, I could pick you up at 3 : 40 in the morning
Hoffa. Ha, ha ; what the h ; I could take
Dio. What?
Hoffa. I can take the cab and
Dio. I don't want you to get lost in New York, for C 's sake.
Hoffa. Ha, ha, ha — do you know what time 3 : 40 in the morning is?
Dio. That's all right ; 3 : 40 in the morning is O. K. with me.
Hoffa. If it's O. K. with you, I'm gonna be at the ah — what the h , what
the h
Dio. What flight number is it?
Hoffa. 618.
Dio. 618? Where? Idlewild or LaGuardia?
Hoffa. Just a minute and I'll tell ya — wait until I check it, Johnny.
Dio. All right.
Hoffa. Hello. Hello. Hello.
Dio. Hello.
Hoffa. LaGuardia, John.
Dio. LaGuardia?
Hoffa. Yeah.
Dio. All right. I had my first, ah — party yesterday.
Hoffa. How'd you make out?
Dio. I pulled out National's garage — National Transportation ; their one unit.
Hoffa. Uh-huh.
Dio. 280 cabs.
Hoffa. Uh-huh.
Dio. I lost 18 cabs out of 280. Had a terrific meeting and a terrific turnout.
I think it will be in the newspapers today. And we terminated this morning —
we terminated at 12 o'clock today on the 1-day shot.
Hoffa. Uh-huh.
Dio. a hundred percent successful.
Hoffa. J — C — , I'm glad to hear that, and I'm glad it happened before thia
meeting.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5195
Dio. Well, and not only that — tomorrow, I will give you a big party too while
you're here
HoFFA. Good. ,
Dio. I'm going to give you a big party tomorrow while you're here.
HoFFA. Fine. j
Dio. O. K.?
HoFFA. How were the men, all right?
Dio. Perfect. Wonderful.
HoFFA. Uh-huh.
Dio. I still say I'm ready to lay it on the table.
HoFFA. Good, ah — when, ah — when we get in there we'll outline what we're
going to do tomorrow.
Dio. Right.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. That's why I want to talk to you before tomorrow, see.
HoFFA. Fine, John.
Dio. All right, James. How's the family?
HoFFA. Oh, fine, thanks.
Dio. How's Bert?
HOFFA. Good.
Dio. Say hello to everybody.
HoFFA. I'll do it, Johnny.
Dio. All right.
HoFFA. Right
Dio. I'll pick you up tonight.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. Right.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. Bye, bye.
(At this point, Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Are there any questions or any answers ?
Mr. Hoffa, do yoii wish to comment ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, I will comment on this conversation, with your
permission.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed.
Mr. HoFFA. I notice here that this is a telephone conversation be-
tween John Dioguardi and myself, and it must have been the day
preceding the meeting in New York, which was May 13.
The Chairman. This is dated May 12.
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir. I say this was the day preceding.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. And apparently this is one of the 20 strikes, I believe,
that was talked about in the other recording, I believe of May 7,
without taking time to search through it, and it could very easily
have been that I discussed with him the question of calling this strike,
again to preserve the organization, so that when we took it over we
would have had an organization.
If it could be construed that I was working with him on that basis,
then I wouldn't quarrel with the construction.
But, it doesn't necessarily follow through to any other conclusion
than what I have been making, that I wanted to take that organization
into the teamsters union.
If I could take it in with a strong, healthy union, it would have
been much better.
Now, I notice on page 3, the bottom of page 3 and the top of page 4,
it talks about a big party. I assume that also meant probably some
additional strikes.
Then I notice in the middle of the page, where Dio states, "I still
say I'm ready to lay it on the table," which probably means that he
89330— 57— pt. 13 18
5196 IMPROPER ACTIVmBS IN THE LABOR FIELD
has more applications and a sufficiently strong organization to pre-
sent the argument that the cab union of the UAW should be taken
into the teamsters union.
Then Hoffa talks about "Good — ah — when, ah — when we get in
there we'll outline what we're going to do tomorrow."
Apparently I was going to discuss with him the question of my
attempt to have the UAW local union come into the teamsters union,
rather than form a new organization.
This refreshes my recollection to that point out of the interpreta-
tion of this conversation.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, does it not also refresh your recollec-
tion to the extent that you knew when you took it in, Dio was coming
with you ?
Mr. Hoffa. I beg your pardon ?
The Chairman. Did it not also refresh your recollection to the
extent that you know that that man was not going to try to help you
get it in that organization unless he was coming with it?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir, it doesn't. Senator, because I have spent many
daj'S and many weeks trying to do a job such as this for our own
international union, as an international officer.
The Chairman. Are you yet prepared to say positively that you
did not plan to take Johnny Dio in with you ?
Mr. Hoffa. No, sir. I have made the statement, and to the best
of my recollection I have to stay with it, that I would have taken
him, if it took that point, to bring them in. But I don't ever recall
that I actually said I would. If I did, and you can remind me of it,
I would say it.
The Chairman. I know. It is a little bit difficult to understand
all of his activities out there pulling strikes and working day and
night, and doing everything he can to get the thing in shape for you
to take it over, trying to get rid of something as good as that and
him not have any interest m it afterward. It just does not add up.
Mr. Hoffa. I will venture to say. Senator, that many times you
have worked on projects to complete something to your satisfaction,
even though you didn't have any benefit out of it.
The Chairman. I never worked that hard to get rid of something
that I invested $200,000 in, that he said he had.
Mr. Hoffa. I answered Senator McNamara without actually
doubting him, that I couldn't see where he could spend that kind
of money.
The Chairman. He maybe did not. I do not know whether that
is true or not, but that is testimony here, that he had sjDent that much.
But I do not see that much activity to try to get rid of it for nothing.
Mr. Hoffa. I don't think anybody would have spent the $200,000,
Senator.
Senator Ervin. And for a man who loves sleep as much as I do
getting up at 3 : 40 a. m. in the morning to meet somebody at the
airport would be almost equivalent to that sacrifice.
Mr. Kennedy. I would just like to point out that, prior to this call
that was made on May 12, 1953, an article had publicized the fact
that Mr. Johnny Dio had been indicted for income-tax evasion.
Mr. Hoffa. At that time, you say, sir ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. April 28, 1953. I would like to read you the
reason why he was indicted, for what moneys he received, as it ap-
peared in the press at that time.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5197
Mr. Hogan reported that Dioguardi sold his dress business for $12,000 in 1950.
This is what I want you to listen to :
He obtained an additional $11,200 in the following year, the prosecutor said,
^'by using his influence to prevent the Allentown plant from being imionized."
That was public information, that he was receiving a payoff for a
period during 1951 when he was in the labor-union movement, this
man, Johnny Dio. It was public information that he was receiving
a payoff for keeping a plant nonunion, and at that time you were try-
ing to bring him — this was the man that you were meeting with and
you were discussing tactics and policy with. Did you have any ques-
tion about him at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I had no question about the fact that he represented
the UAW-AFL, and that is who I was trying to get the members
from.
Mr. IvENNEDT. But this is public information, that he received a
payoff for keeping a shop of his nonunion, and you want to say that
this same individual was such a wonderful man that he was trying to
get the organization of the taxicabs into the teamsters, but he wasn't
going with it; that he was going to get up at 3 o'clock in the morning
to come out and pick Jimmy HofFa up at the airport at 3 : 40, just
because he was going to get the organization into it and wasn't going
to get anything out of it himself.
Is that what you want this committee to believe '•?
Mr. HoFFA. Was the information made public that you talked about
there, with regard to some strikebreaking? Was that a newspaper
report or an investigative report ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was indicted by Mr. Hogan, the district at-
torney, for income-tax evasion, and it was a public report of that
indictment.
Mr. HoFFA. I recognize the fact that he was indicted for income
tax.
Mr. Kennedy. It was for that reason that I read you from the
nev/spaper report, the reason that he was under indictment for re-
ceiving a payoff for keeping a shop nonunion. You are arguing that
the same man who received that kind of a payoff was getting up,
doing all of this work, just because he wanted to get the UAW or-
ganization into the teamsters and did not want anything out of it
himself, and he was meeting with you? That just does not make
sense, Mr. Hofl'a. It just does not make any sense at all. You can-
not even argl^e that the organization was active. They say right in
here that it was his first strike.
Mr. HoFFA. What organization was active?
Mr. IvENNEDY. The UAW-AFL. He said in here, "This is my
first strike."
Mr. HoFFA. Are you talking about the cabs now ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. That is possible. I have organized 2 or 3 years before
I could call a strike.
Mr. Kennedy. But he is organizing 20 strikes, he says. And you
?ay that is good ; get the activity before the meeting.
Mr. HoFFA. It is possible they won some elections and got some
satisfaction before a strike. That could have happened, too.
The Chairman. Mr. Hotf a, the information counsel gave you about
Dio's indictment was published in the New York Times, with Dio's
r
5198 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IK THE LABOR FIELD
picture, on April 23, 15 days before your meeting. It is bound to
have been called to your attention at that time. Do you say you did
not know that ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir ; I did not. I said I knew that he was indicted
for income tax.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Did you know anything else about him ? Did you
know that he had been convicted of extortion in 1937 and had been
in Sing Sing?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that earlier in the discussion I said I learned,
whether or not it was that time or later, that he had been.
Mr. Kennedy. And the liiring of Benny the Bug, his hiring of
Joe Curcio with a police record, Abe Goldberg ; and that he had been
denounced for running a racket union ; that the district attorney had
denounced him in 1952 for running a racket union; that the AFL
had charged him with racketeering; all of these things prior to the
time that you are having these conversations with him and meeting
with him ?
(The witness conferred with liis counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, you met with people who can complete
the negotiations, and many times during meeting those people you
meet them at odd hours or anyplace that is necessary to complete
the negotiations.
Mr. Kennedy. "I am glad to hear that," you say about the fact
that he is going to have tlie strike before the meeting. "I am glad
it happened before this meeting."
Mr. HoFFA. Well, it would appear to perpetuate our organization
by making it stronger if we won the strike.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, this indictment that occurred here
right after you had had that conversation in which you said you
understood someone was going to give him a rap — is that what he is
talking about in anticipation of this indictment?
Mr. Hoffa. I certainly would not have any knowledge, sir, prior
to an indictment, of an indictment coming out. I would not say that.
The Chairman. Well, sometimes you get a little rumor that of-
ficers are after somebody, the Revenue Department is out to indict.
You do get rumors of these things sometimes beforehand. I won-
dered if that is what j^ou referred to when you said you understood
somobody was going to give him a rap.
Mr. Hoffa. I think it would be a complaint, rather than what we
are discussing here. That would be my opinion, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. You state on page 4, "Good, when we get there, we
will outline what we are going to do tomorrow." You were working
together, were you, at that time ?
Mr. Hoffa. To the point of bringing in that organization, I was,
and I wanted to talk to him as to what I was going to do to bring
the organization into the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Without him?
Mr. Hoffa. I would have taken them with or without, but at that
time I was trying to take them without.
Mr. Kennedy. You were trying to take them without?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes; certainly.
Mr. Kennedy. He knew that ?
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Beck had told him that in Florida.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5199
Mr. Kennedy. Aiid he agreed ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think he realized that they did not have the jurisdic-
tion and they could not keep them. It was just a question of giving
up the complete union or turning it over to the teamsters.
Mr. BIennedy. No; there is a third alternative.
Mr. HoFFA. What is that ?
Mr, Kennedy. Him going with it.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. The question of him commg with the union was to
the extent, according to you, and according to what you are trying
to say, to get the union in. Now, I have said that, if that would
have solved it, and if I would have had the authority, I would not
have objected to it. But, since it had been stopped by President
Beck, I was attempting to get the union in, and its officers.
Mr. Ejennedy. All he was trying to do, this grand fellow, Johnny
Dio, all he was trying to do was work hard so that this organization
could go over to the teamsters and he could say, "Farewell ; I will go
back to local 649."
Mr. HoFFA. I can't tell what he was thinking, but I know what I
have said is to the best of my recollection.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Did you have conversations at that meeting the
next day? Were there not other conversations about the specific
question of whether Dio would come into the local or not, into the
teamsters or not?
Mr. HoFFA. I have tried to give you, and only by refreshing my
memory out of what Hickey said could I give you, what I gave you
so far.
Mr. Kennedy. So, you cannot tell us anythiung about that either,
can you?
Mr. HoFFA. I have tried to give you what I know. If you have
something to refresh my memory, I will try to listen to it.
(Members of the select committee present at this point were Senators
McClellan, Ives, Ervin, and McNamara.)
Mr. Kennedy. Do you like these things when we refresh your recol-
lection ?
Mr. HoFFA. It isn't a question of that. You are accusing me of
bad faith and bad memory, and, if you have something that will re-
fresh my memory, and for legislative purposes, I think you ought to be
satisfied to give it to me so I can answer the question to the best of my
ability and my recollection. That is all I can say, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. We don't seem to be getting any answers from you,
and, after we refresh your recollection — before we refresh your recol-
lection or after we refresh your recollection.
Mr. HoFFA. If you would just take these conversations as they are,
and try to be able to read them and not being able to recall everything
that happened, I think you would have to agree that the conversation,
as such, doesn't say much.
Mr. Kennedy. We have refreslied your recollection about a half
dozen times, Mr. Hoffa, and, as has been pointed out before, at least
a day or so ago, you were complimented for having such a good mem-
ory. I just am amazed that it suddenly failed you today.
Mr. HoFFA. I would like to answer Senator Ives and yourself on
that statement, because it has been made twice, and I didn't want to
say anything, but may I do so? The reason I have remembered
5200 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
what Senator Ives was reading was because I had discussed that with
a reporter representing the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and I asked him
about the fellow's health, and I remembered that about the article he
had written about me.
Senator Ives. Mr. Chairman, that is an indication of a pretty good
memory right there, Mr. Hoffa. Now, you can't sit there and not
convince me that you haven't a very high I. Q. You certainly have.
The record shows it. Now, I don't know how much this memory busi-
ness that you are talking about has to do with it, or whether your
memory actually does fail you or not, but I think you have a good
memory. As I said before, I think that you are about the best
forgetter of anybody I have ever known.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, Senator, I have tried to say what I can recollect,
and I was attempting to do that, and it was a very simple thing, and
I can't understand yet how it got so big.
Senator Ives. Now, your answers to Mr. Kennedy just don't make
sense. You aie not a stupid individual. I have given you credit
for having a high I. Q., which I think you do have. You will have
to sit there and you will have to recognize that your answers haven't
made sense.
Mr. HoFFA. Because of my failure to recollect, sir.
Senator Ives. They don't make any sense, anyway.
The Chairman. Let us have order. We will play another record-
Mr. Ken^tedy. I might just say that this is a poor recording, but
we are able to get some words on the transcription out of it.
Senator McNamara.. 'Who originated the conversation, and it is
not evident from this.
Mr. Kennedy. We will try to check it.
The Chairman. All right, if you can't determine who called whom.
Mr. Kennedy. It is Hoffa to Dio, Senator.
Senator McNamara. I think the record should so show.
The Chairman. This is Mr. Hoffa to Mr. Dio, on May 14, 1953.
(Transcript of telephone conversation between Jimmy Hoffa and
Johnny Dio on May 14, 1953, follows :)
Man's Voice. All right. He's picking up the phone.
Jimmy Hoffa. All right.
Johnny Dio. Hello.
Hoffa. Hello, Johnny?
Dio. Yeah.
Hoffa. How ya doing?
Dio. Oh, I'm tired.
Hoffa. Listen ; I just came from that fellow's office.
Dio. Yeah.
(Hoffa inaudible.)
Dio. Uhuh.
Hoffa. And, ah — he positively, definitely, went on record as opposing you,
ah — getting a charter.
Dio. Who's that? Marty?
Hoffa. Yeah.
Dio. Yeah ; well, I figured that when I spoke to you this morning.
Hoffa. He went on — definitely on record against it
Dio. What. Jim?
Hoffa. Huh?
Dio. I didn't hear you.
Hoffa. And we made mention of the fact that you had [inaudible].
Dio. Uhuh.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5201
HoFFA. And so forth and so forth, and it boiled down to what I told you
this morning as to the way they're going to handle this issuance of the charter.
They're going to reach Beck now.
Dio. Uhuh.
Hoffa inaudible.
Dio. Uhuh.
HoFFA. The charter will be issued, ah — if Beck follows [inaudible] sugges-
tions.
Dio. Well, what time are you going to leave, Jim ?
HoFFA. 3 :40, for the airport.
Dio. Well, where are you now?
HoFFA. I'm at the hotel, John.
Dig. Well, ah — don't you think I ought to come over there with Tony?
HOFFA. O. K.
Dio. Huh?
HoFFA. Ah — O. K. I'll be here : if I'm not here, I'll be in my room.
Dio. All right, within the half hour.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. Right. Bye, bye.
Mr. Kennedy. Does that help, Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I think it certainly concludes a considerable mis-
understanding as to what happened. When you read the phone con-
versation, it indicates to me the fact that at this meeting apparently
leaving it in Beck's hands, it turned down the suggestion of the AFL
people, or rather the UAW-AFL people, coming into the teamsters
union. And the fact that in this conversation, I believe, we must
have been at the meeting I told you about, the second meeting — I
thought it was later, but probably the next day — and we went to
Lacey's office, and he refused to cooperate. So, apparently, this
ended the question of bringing the UAW into the teamsters.
The Chairman. Well, now, Mr. Hoffa, that is your voice, and, if
this recording is correct, you called up Mr. Dio and told him, "He
positively definitely went on record as opposing you getting a
charter." Obviously, Johnny Dio had been expecting a charter.
And you had found the opposition and were so advising him. Is
that correct ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I think that has to be constructed in a proper
way and I believe it would apply to the union. You speak to a man
representing the union, probably, as you do here.
The Chairman. It says "opposing you," and it doesn't say "op-
posing the union."
Mr. Hoffa. When I say you, "representing an organization," it
wouldn't mean you.
The Chairman. I see he got busy and he came right on over, and
do you remember what happened after he got over there ?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't remember what happened, and he was prob-
ably giving fuller detail, and I can't say what, and he was probably
giving fuller detail that they had decided not to take in the UAW-
AFL into the teamsters. That is, apparently, what it reads to me.
The Chairman. I think Mr. Beck had already opposed that, had
he not ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, but I think that the question was, in Florida, of
Beck rejecting Dio. I think the conversation in New York must
have followed, concerning the question of my suggestion to bring
the UAW-AFL into our group and get a charter as against the op-
posite view that there should be a new organization established.
5202 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You said you had come from that fellow's office.
Who is that?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it was Martin Lacey's office, from the way
it reads, and I am, again, calling on my best recollection and, after
reading this, trying to refresh my memory as to what it means. It
sounds like that.
The Chairman. Following that, you said he "positively definitely,
went on record as opposing you getting a charter, ' and then Dio said,
"Who is that; Marty?" '^And you said, "Yes." Marty is who?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it would be Martin Lacey. I would think so.
"Wlien I talk about this conversation, sir, I think I am talking about
the representative of UAW-AFL.
The Chairman. I believe he testified that he opposed giving Dio a
charter, did he not ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Lacey did not testify to that point.
The Chairman. All right ; it is my mistake.
Mr. HoFFA. On No. 2, if you please, where it says "Hoffa: The
charter will be issued, ah — if Beck follows [inaudible] suggestions,"
which probably was the suggestion, and I imagine that would follow
Mr. Hickey's suggestion, because he was opposing the theory that I
was trying to put forth.
Senator Ervin. May I ask a question there? Do you not think
that the statement that you are reported as making to Dio on page 1,
concerning, namely, Lacey, that he had "positively gone on record as
opposing you getting a charter," is susceptible of the interpretation
that what had been contemplated between you and Dio was that Dio
was to have an interest in the matter ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think you could interpret it that way, and I would
not quarrel with the interpretation.
Senator Ervin. Is that not the most reasonable interpretation to
be placed on it ?
Mr. Hoffa. Not the way I talk, sir.
Senator Ervin. On the next page, you say that you evidently talked
to him that morning and you said, "I told you this morning as to the
way they were going to handle this issue of the charter." That is at
the top of page 2. Would that not imply that they were willing to
issue the charter, but they were not willing to issue the charter if Dio
was to be connected with the matter, or the new local or the local that
was to get the charter.
Mr. HoFFA. I think, sir, it bears out the statement that I have been
trying to make here; that they had been discussing the question, first
of all, of issuing a separate charter, a teamsters charter, and not tak-
ing in Dio, and I believe that that statement there affirms the situation
1 have been trying to say here all day.
Senator Erven. Is it not reconcilable with this interpretation, how-
ever, that you and Dio had been talking about a charter being issued
and Dio going along with the local, and other people, had turned
thumbs down on it, and, therefore, you could not carry out what you
and Dio had been talking about ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I do not want to argue with you, but I would
Eut the construction on it that it would mean that the effort I had
een trying to put forth in getting the charter for the then present
TJAW-AFL had fell through, and it was a debatable question of what
would happen.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5203
Senator Ervin, It still indicates, does it not, in your conversation
on page 2, that the teamsters were considering issuing a charter, but
they were going to issue the charter only if Dio had nothing whatever
to do with it. That is with the teamsters after the charter was issued.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I do not think that there was ever a question
of a teamster-issued charter ; it was how it would be issued.
Senator Ervin. That is what I am getting at, and so I say it seems
to me that this, in the light of other recordings, is susceptible of the
construction that you and Dio had been negotiating on the theory
that the teamsters were to take along with these locals, and that
other members of the teamsters would not permit you to carry out or
consummate your negotiations with Dio.
Mr. HoFFA. Sir, I realize that two people can read the same thing
and get different meanings. I realize, without having been present
in the meetings and knowmg the full details, and just simply looking
at a paragraph, there could be an honest difference of opinion of
what he read.
Senator Ervin. You do not tell us about the details. Those are
the things that Senator Ives has suggested you have forgotten.
Mr. HoFFA. But the problem is, I am trying to say, and I thought
the details were there, that I wanted to bring in the UAW-AFL
officers into a teamsters charter, and it was opposition to start a new
teamsters union with new folks.
Senator Ives. The thing I have difficulty reconciling your recol-
lection with is your statement that you had not discussed with Dio,
or agreed with Dio, that, as far as you were concerned, Dio was to
come along into the teamsters with these locals.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, I have stated, and I think you were not here,
but I have stated that if I would have had the authority and it was
necessary to take that union over, I would have taken Dio with it.
Senator Ervin. I have heard you state that. That is the reason
I cannot understand your statement that you thought that Dio was
doing all of this just out of the goodness of his heart and was not
expecting to go into the teamsters with these locals when the charters
were issued.
Mr. HoFFA. Sir, I think that he had an obligation to the people
he had made officers or elected officers of the division of the cab
union he had set up under 102, and he was trying to, probably, in my
opinion, even though he was not going to be associated with it, be-
cause of Beck's decision, trying to get those folks a charter rather
than to leave them out in the open in the cold.
Senator Ervin. When you talked to Dio, as recorded on page 1,
were you telling him that Lacey had absolutely refused or turned
thumbs down on the proposition that the teamsters would issue a
charter to these unions ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think, sir, this was on the 14th ; yes, and, from what
has been reported by Mr. Kennedy, the meeting was the 13th. Then,
we must have gone over and saw Lacey, and Lacey had refused to
cooperate in regard to organizing cabdrivers.
Senator Erven. You are telling us that Lacey was not willing to
take the cabdrivers into the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Lacey did not want cabdrivers at all, to the best I
could remember. If I can remember it rightly, and it is very hard
r
5204 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
to remember, but I do believe that Lacey was objecting to any fashion
of taking them in.
I think that is the best I can recall. I think that he is, to this day
he is, objectionable to cabdrivers being taken into New York.
Senator Erven. What did you mean on page 2 there where you said
that the charter will be issued if Beck follows suggestions.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it was Hickey's suggestion, and I added here
myself, where they put liere what was said, I believe that would have
been Hickey's suggestion, because he was suggesting, and which actu-
ally did happen, that a new teamsters charter be issued with new
people.
Senator Ervin. I have some difficulty accepting your entire pres-
entation of Dio, because Dio did not impress me as being anythmg
in tlie nature of an eleemosynary institution when he was here be-
fore us.
Mr. HoFFA. That may be the reason I am having trouble explaining
my statements here, sir.
Senator Ervin. That is all.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. I wish to point out in this transcript that you state
to Mr. Dio, "And he positively went on record as opposing you getting
a charter." Now, you are saying, as I understand your testimony, you
are saying now, that that refreshes your recollection- and "you" means
theAFL-CIO?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
^Ir. Kennedy. "We have finally been able to help you."
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, to the best that I could recall, and I said I was
trying to recall it after reading this, and I could even — my memory
could even be wrong in trying to recall after I read this — I inter-
preted this to mean that I was tallving about the UAW-AFL inter-
national union
Mr. Kennedy. But you didn't say that. You said "you."
Mr. HoFFA. And that Lacey had objected, not only to that, but prob-
ably to Dio. I can't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. You said here in this transcript, in this transcript
you said "you." I would like to point out, Mr. Hoffa, that you were
chairman of the jMichigan Conference of Teamsters. You were vice
president out in the central conference. You intervened here in New
York. You arranged the trip originally in Miami, according to your
own testimony, on February 9. You said that Mr. Beck at that time
opposed Johnny Dio, But, despite that fact, you had a number of
conferences and conversations with Mr. Johnny Dio ; that there were
conversations during this period of time that showed that Dio was
trying to get derogatory information on a vice president of the
teamsters; that he was going to turn that information over to you;
that you had one of your assistants working with him at that time,
Richard Kavner; that you had further conversations with him, in
which you said that you were going to arrange your strategy at a
meeting; that you had conversations with him that showed that you
were in favor of him pulling some strikes just before the meeting, so
that it would impress the committee.
And then you notify him in this last conversation, "Well, its too
bad. Unfortunately, they are opposed to you getting the charter."
rSIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5205
It just doesn't make sense any other way, Mr. Hoffa, for you to say
that you were not interested in Mr. Dio at this period of time. We
would like to explore with you tomorrow how interested you were
in him, not only at this particular time but afterward.
The Chairman. All right. The Chair wishes to make two obser-
vations or announcements. This morning I asked a question regarding
Joe Louis ; whether Mr. Hoffa had any information that Joe Louis had
been paid $2,500 for coming to Washington during the time of his
trial. The Chair did have some information to that effect, but the
committee staff has called to my attention that they had contacted
Mr. Louis about it, and, by affidavit, he denies that anyone gave him
$2,500 or any other amount.
I had a wire from Mr. Hurst stating that he has never been asso-
ciated in the law practice with the Honorable A. G. Shelton, brother
of Judge Burnita Matthews, and asks that the record be corrected.
I know Mr. Hurst ; I have known him many years. I was not sure
this morning whether there had been a partnership or had not, but
he says there had not been. The Chair does not think it is of any
great importance, and, therefore, the record will stand that he has
not been a partner of Mr. Shelton. They live in the same town, and
they practice law in the same county and city, and I am sure they know
each other, maybe quite well, but I would not want any implication,
necessarily, that there was any connection on that score.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Chairman, may I address the Chair to put
a statement into the record here, very briefly ?
The Chairman. Yes, sir ; you may.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May the record show, please, that the David Pre-
viant referred to in the transcript of May 1, 1953, is a duly licensed
attorney at law and a member of the law firm of Padway, Goldberg
& Previant.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, are you making that statement as a
witness?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I am making it as an attorney. Mr. Previant has
been associated in this particular matter, I was making it at the
request of Mr. Previant right now. It is merely
The Chairman. The Chair did not understand that. If you wish
to make a statement as counsel, it will be all right. If you wish to
state, and we will regard your statement as that of a witness, if you
wish to state that yoiUiave procured that information from him, it may
go into the record.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I complete it ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I was making it, not as a witness, Mr. Chairman,
but as a counsel in this particular case. Mr. Previant has been asso-
ciated in the
The Chairman. Well, the Chair will lean over that far. Go ahead.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May the record also show that, at the time of such
telephone call, there was an attorney-client relationship existing be-
tween the UAW-AFL and its local unions on the one hand and the
law firm of Padway, Goldberg, & Previant on the other.
May the record also show
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, I do not know-
Mr. Fitzgerald. I think that is in the record, Mr. Chairman.
5206 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Is it already in the record ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes ; it is in the record.
The Chairman. Insofar as any of this information is already in the
record, it will be accepted, but I did not want you to make a statement
here at random.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I will check the record. I would like to put it in
and, if there is any question about it, I am sure it is in the record
The Chairman. I will suggest, then, that you look into that, and we
will consider it in the morning. I think that will be better. Do you
not?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The committee stands in recess until 10 : 30 tomor-
row morning.
(Whereupon, at 4: 38 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at
10 : 30 a. m., Friday, August 23, 1957.)
(Members present at the taking of the recess : Senators McClellan^
Ives, Ervin, and McNamara.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
FRIDAY, AUGUST 23, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN THE Labor or Management Field,
Washington^ D, G.
The select committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucaus room. Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator
Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York; Senator John F. Kennedy,
Democrat, Massachusetts ; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat, North
Carolina; Senator Pat McNamara, Democrat, Michigan; Senator
Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona; Senator Karl E. Mundt,
Republican, South Dakota ; Senator Carl T. Curtis, Republican, Ne-
braska; also present: Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel; Jerome S.
Adlerman, chief assistant counsel; Paul J. Tierney, assistant coun-
sel ; Robert E. Dunne, assistant counsel ; John Cye Cheasty, assistant
counsel; Walter R. May, assistant counsel; Walter Sheridan, assist-
ant counsel ; K. Philip O'Donnell, assistant counsel ; Carmine S. Bel-
lino, accounting consultant ; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator ; James
Mundie, investigator ; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
(Members present at the convening of the session: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Ives, Kennedy, and Goldwater.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, when did you last see Johnny Dio?
Mr. HoFEA. I would say, offhand, probably it could be 30, 60, or 90
days. It could be one of the two.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you seen him this month, in August?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you see him in July ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. I am trying to fix the dates. I think I was here most
of the month of July.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you see him after your trial ?
Mr. Hoffa. Maybe I can figure out a date for you.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
5207
5208 DVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I am trying to fix a date. Just a moment.
(The witness conferred -with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. It could have been May or June, and I can't tell you
offhand.
Mr. Kennedy. AVhere did you see him ?
Mr. HoFFA. In New York, someplace.
Mr. Kennedy. In connection with what ?
Mr. HoFFA. Nothing, I think that he was in the hotel lobby when
I walked through.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a talk with him at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. About what ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think general conversation.
Mr. Kennedy. What about ?
Mr. IIoFj^A. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you recollect ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recollect and I will tell you why. I was in New
York to appear in front of the grand jury, and there were a lot of
things on my mind, and, since then, I have had a lot of things on
my mind and I don't recollect what I talked to him about. I don't
think it was of im])ortance.
Mr. Kennedy. What hotel was it ?
IVIr. IIoFFA. I can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he go up in the elevator with you ?
Mr. IToFFA. I don't know.
jNIr. Kennedy. Do you know if he went to your room I
Mr. HoFFA. I can't answer that. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember back, now this is 3 months
ago, and you can't remember 3 months ago whether Johnny Dio was in
your room, a man under indictment for throwing acid in Victor
Riesel's eyes?
Mr. rioFFA. I cannot remomlter whether he was or not, as I said.
It was that period of time and I just don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember what you talked about and you
can't remember whether he was in your room ?
Mr. HoFFA. It wouldn't have been anything of any importance, and
I can't recall it.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien did you last talk to him on the telephone.
Mr. HoFFA. I will tell you in a minute.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
]\Ir. HoFFA. I am trying to fix a date for you.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Somewhere after July.
Mr. IvENNEDY. What was that in connection with ?
Mr. Hoffa. He called me up to tell me that he had been con-
victed, and he wanted to laiow if his wife would need any assistance
would I help her, and I said I would.
Mr. Kennedy. You had been very friendly with him since 1953?
Mr. Hoffa. I have known him, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You have been friendly with him ?
Mr. Hoffa. Friendly acquaintance, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. He turned to you in his hour of need, and called
you long distance in Detroit to ask you if 3^ou would take cnre of his
family?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5209
Mr. HoFFA. He didn't ask me that at all.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you one of his closest friends ?
Mr. HoFFA. I wouldn't say that, no; and I think he said, I don't
know just how he phrased it, but to some extent would I look out
and see if everything was all right.
Mr. Kennedy. If someone is in trouble, they are going to go to
their close friends to see if they are going to take care of their family.
Was that the position you had with Mr. Dio ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is not the position I had with him, that I could
take care of his family.
Mr. Ej:nnedy. How many times have you talked to him in the
last few months, half-a-dozen times ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I wouldn't say that.
Mr. Kennedy. It is possible half-a-dozen times ?
Mr. HoFFA. If I talked to him once or twice, I would be surprised.
I don't recall, but maybe once or twice, and I can't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to him since he appeared before the
committee ?
Mr. HoFFA. This committee?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. Wasn't that just a week ago ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. I haven't ; no. I haven't ; no.
Mr. I^nnedy. Have you seen him much in this year of 1957?
Mr. HoFFA. I could have seen him one or two times, or somewhere
around there, and I can't tell you how often I saw him.
Mr. KJENNEDY. You would visit together in New York ?
Mr. HoFFA. I will leave it at that, I can't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You would visit together in New York, would
you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Did I, you say, when I was in New York ?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you visit together ?
Mr. HoFFA. Occasionally, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And he would come out to see you in Detroit, oc-
casionally ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think he was in Detroit once or twice if I remember
correctly. That is the best of my recollection,
Mr. Kennedy. And you were down in Miami several times?
Mr. HoFFA. That wasn't recently that he was in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. When was the last time he was in Detroit?
Mr. HoFFA. It seems to me — it is awful hard to recall. It wasn't
this year, I don't believe, and I don't think it was last year. It could
have been 1955, and I don't recall offhand. It could have been some-
where around there, to the best I can tell you from my memory.
Mr. Kennedy. Your recollection is not very good on that, either?
Mr. HoFFA. I would have no reason to remember what date he was
there, or what year, or when.
Mr. Kennedy. What about in Miami? Did you visit in Miami,
too?
Mr. HoFFA. I stated here that I saw him in Miami.
Mr. Kennedy. And your families visited down there together?
Mr. HoFFA. I think we had dinner a couple of times together, or so.
Mr. Kennedy. And after
5210 IMPROPEH ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. Wait just a moment, sir. I think that is right. I
think that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You had a social relationship, is that correct?
Mr. HoFFA. I had a friendly relationship, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And this friendly relationship continued after he
was indicted for extortion, and indicted for the charges of throwing
the acid in Victor Riesel's eyes ?
Mr. HoFFA. A lot less than before.
Mr. Kennedy. But it continued up until at least a few weeks ago?
Mr. HoFFA. I talked to him ; yes.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Did you have any business relationship with Mr.
Dio?
Mr. HoFFA. I can never recall doing any business with Dio, to my
recollection, and I don't know what you mean by business. That is
why I have to qualify it.
Mr, Kennedy. What other than socially ? Let me put it that way.
You tell us every relationship you had.
Mr. HoFFA. I may have had a meeting with him, and I may have.
1 believe one time I did him a favor of arranging for a company to
come out to Chicago to show Link radios. When you talk about
business, I say I cannot distinguish what you are talking about by
business.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat was the Link radio that you arranged for ?
Mr. HoFFA. It was a two-way radio company, that installs tele-
phones in trucks and has a terminal where the driver can report back
to the dispatcher, and vice versa.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do for him in that connection in
Detroit?
Mr. HoFFA. Not in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do for him ?
Mr. HoFFA. He asked me, I think this must be 2 or 3 years ago,
would I allow a certain individual, and I cannot think of his name,
to demonstrate a two-way radio operation that they had at that time,
or the company had at that time, being installed in trucks; since it
was interesting and part of our industry, I told him I found no
objections.
%lr. Kennedy. What did you do for him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't do anything. They came out to Chicago, and
set up their temporary operations, on an advertising basis, the em-
ployers, and the union listened to the discussion from the individual
that came there, and the engineer
Mr. Kennedy. He wanted you to set up what again ?
Mr. HoFFA. He asked me, would it be all right for an individual,
and I can't think of his name, I think it was Link Radio, to demon-
strate their product at the meeting in Chicago to our people.
Mr. Ivennedy. This is a teamster meeting ?
Mr. HoFFA. Combination Teamster and employer meeting.
Mr. Kjennedy. What date was this, approximately ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I say, if I can recall, and it is pretty hard, it was
2 or 3 years, somewhere around there.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was working for Link at the time, Link
Radio?
Mr. HoFFA. Well that now I don't know.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5211
Mr. Kenxedy. The record shows that he was at one time working
for Link Radio, in New York, and he wanted you to give him per-
mission to bring the apparatus or have somebody, an employee of
that company, bring the apparatus in and show it to the employers
and the union.
Mr. HoFFA, The engineer that was selling the two-way radio sys-
tem brought it out and installed it and they couldn't demonstrate it
except by voice how it operated, because you would have to have a
high tower and so forth, to our people, who were there at that par-
ticular meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. And the employers were there also ?
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Kennedy. The employers were there also ?
Mr. HoFFA. Some, those who attended the meeting I invited them
in, those who wanted to come, and those who didn't, didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Where was this meeting held ?
Mr. HoFFA. At the Shoreland Hotel, if I remember rightly, and I
am quite sure.
Mr. Kennedy. In Chicago ?
Mr. HoFFA. I am quite sure, and I am not too sure.
Mr. Kennedy, Was that in tlie teamster suite ?
Mr. HoFFA. The reason I say the Slioreland, we generally hold our
meetings there. We rotate them generally but generally it is there,
and I would say generallj^ we meet there.
Mr. Kennedy. You keep a suite of rooms there ?
Mr. HoFFA. The Central States Drivers Council does, and we use
the rooms ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did he give his demonstration ?
Mr. HoFFxV. It would be in the hotel.
Mr. Kennedy. You mean in Vae suite of rooms ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, it would have to be in, I think they call them sam-
ple rooms.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he stay in the teamsters' suite while he was
there?
Mr. HoFFA. Well I certainly wouldn't think so.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Well, did he ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, to the best of my recollection ; no.
Mr. Kennedy. He did not ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't say he didn't come in the room, but I don't
believe he ever slept there.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he make any sales at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe Link ever sold anything in our area.
Mr. Ivennedy. Let me ask you, did you have any business dealings
with him ?
Mr. HoFFA. I wanted to finish my answer, Mr. Kennedy. They
couldn't get, I believe, channels, and I think that you have to have
an individual channel for each operation, of some description, and I
understood from some way or other they couldn't get a channel or
something.
Mr. Kennedy. That is why they didn't make any sales ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I think tliey weren't competitive. I think that
the large companies could give a better arrangement to the truck
companies. I think that is why.
89330 — 57 — pt. 13 19
5212 IMPROPER AcrnvrriES in the labor field
Mr. IvENNEDY. Did you have any business dealings with him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well I didn't, personally.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Wlio did ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, as I said, I don't laiow whether he had it with
somebody else w^ho I may know or not and that is why I am hesitant
to answer the question.
Mr. Kennedy. Like who ?
Mr. HoFFA. As broad as you Avant.
Mr. Kennedy. Who do you have in mind ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I believe, and again I don't want to be held
down to it, and I am trying to recollect, and it is second-hand in-
formation, I believe he bought some lots at Sun Valley, and that is
why I am hesitant to make the answer the way you would like to
have it, of saying yes or no. I have to qualify it to the best of what
I can recall, or I can think.
Mr. Ivennedy. He was involved in with Mr. Lower in the Sun
Valley project?
Mr. HoFFA. He was not involved. Pie was like eveiybody else.
He could buy a lot, or whatever he wanted to buy there.
Mr. Kennedy. This wasn't exclusively for the teamsters, and it
was for other people ?
Mr. HoFFA. Anybody who wanted to purchase a lot.
Mr. Ivennedy. And he became interested in buying a lot down
there ?
Mr. IIoFFA. Well, I am saying I think he did, and so when you ask
me that question, since I have an option for Sun Valley, I have to
answer it that way, and I can't tell you exactly one way or the
other.
Mr. Ivennedy. Did lie get the same discount that the teamsters get
in that project?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that the discount was over at the time.
Mr. Ivennedy. Excuse me ?
Mr. HoFFA. I think that the discounting was over at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if he got a discount on it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Of my own knowledge, right at this time, I couldn't
tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear whether he got a discount?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think it was told whether he did or didn't.
Mr. Ivennedy. Did you have any conversations about the fact, tlie
question of whether he was getting a discount?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't recall any.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you the one who suggested that he purchase a
lot down there ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy, Did you have conversations with him about it?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, he may have asked me, did I think it was a good
arrangement or a good deal, or something like that, that would be
the extent of it. I can't recall that.
(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. How did he become interested?
Mr. HoFFA. They were soliciting everywhere for lots.
Mr. Kennedy. Johnny Dio in New York ?
Mr. HoFFA. Anybody and everybody.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5213
Mr. Kennedy. Not everybody, because a lot of people never heard
of Sun Valley project.
Mr. HoFFA. They had a TV show, as I told you, and they ran some
ads in some papers, and I don't know exactly where, and they sent
out post cards, and whatever they could do, like any normal sales
operation, they were in it.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you have discussions with them about it,
how nice it would be, all of you down there together?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe I had any such discussion, and I couldn't
give you an answer on that.
Mr. Kennedy. You could not?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he discuss any of the difficulties that he was
having, did he discuss those difficulties with you?
Mr. HoFFA. You mean his indictments ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, yes, any of the other difficulties he was having,
his indictments and the indictments of the people that he brought in,
10 or 15 indictments of his people for extortion?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't remember discussing them with you.
Mr. Kennedy. He wouldn't come to you with that?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe he would.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you send any of your people there to assist him
in helping him in any work he was doing ?
Mr. HoFFA. Wliat do you mean by people ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, any of the teamster officials.
Mr. HoFFA. From my own territory, you mean ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, not that I recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Well for instance, he knew Bert Brennan, and I was
wondering how he knew him.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know what you mean by "assist him".
Mr. Kennedy. Well, help, assist.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know how, they are not lawyers, and I don't
know how they could assist him,
Mr. Kennedy. I don't either, and I am just asking you the question.
Mr. HoFFA. I would say to the best of my knowledge, and the best
I can answer you is I do not believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. I am not talking just about his legal difficulties, but
he was in the union movementj and then he was in the Equitable Re-
search and he was in Link radio, and he was in a number of different
business. I am asking you whether you sent any of your people or
anyone of any kind to New York to help assist or work with him.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe so.
(At this point Senators Mundt and Curtis entered the hearing
room.)
Mr. Kennedy. You are not sure of that either ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I say, it is such a broad question, I don't want to
come here and tell this committee an absolute yes or no, and then have
something construed that it could be one way or the other, and so I
have to make a qualifying statement.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me particularize it. Did you send anybody there
to help him with his union work.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think he was in the union business when he was
indicted.
5214 niPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIElrD
Mr. Kennedy. Let us exclude tlie fact of the indictment and let us
say any time now. When he "svas in the union work, did you send any-
body from the central conference to the East to assist him, to help him?
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall sending anybody in to assist him ; to my
recollection I did not. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. AVhat about after he got out of the union ? Did you
have anybody come east to help him in any of the work that he was
doing after that time?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, to be best of my recollection, the answer would
have to be "No."
Mr. Kennedy, ^^^lat about him? Did he ever send anybody out
there to Detroit to help or assist you in anyway ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, he did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you think it is possible that he might have?
Mr. IIoFFA. Well, I cannot construe what you mean — I can't be able
to conclude what you may construe to be help. So to the best of my
recollection, the answer is "No."
Mr. Kennedy. Or assist, any aid, help ?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, the answer is "No," to
the best of my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he arrange for anyone to come out there to
Detroit to help or assist 3'ou in an}^ way ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, to tlie best of my recollection, no.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis ?
Senator Curtis. Did he come out or send someone out to contact you
or an^'one connected with you in reference to 'dny labor matter ?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, no.
Senator Curtis. Is your recollection good or bad on this issue ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I cannot remember every incident that happens
or every detail, so I have to go from memory and do the best I can do.
That is what I am attempting to do in the way of assisting you.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy. It is clear that if he had sent anybody out there to
help or assist you. that it would be something that you would remem-
ber, Mr. Hoffa. That would be an important event, if he was sending
somebody out there to help and assist you in some project that you
were interested in.
Mr. HoFFA. It would not necessarily be a remembrance unless it was
something of tremendous importance. As I sit here, I cannot recollect
him doing it.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me pinpoint the time, then, for you.
Mr. HoFFA. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. It was about 1953 ? Let's start there.
In 1953, cast your mind back to 1953, did he send anyone or did he
arrange for anyone to come to Detroit to assist or help you in any
way?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, again I say to the best of my recollection it would
be no, and I can't recall it. If you know of some incident, maybe you
can refresh my memory.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5215
Mr. KIennedy. Do you know that you said that 111 times yesterday ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I am sitting here trying to answer questions
from memory, and it is a very difficult thing to do with all of the
various readings, phone calls, and conversations that I have with indi-
viduals to conduct an organization the size of ours.
I have to qualify my statements because I am sure that this committee
does not want me to make a statement that later on would be wrong
simply because I forgot something one way or the other.
I am sure you don't want that as a committee.
(At this point, Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kenxedy. Mr. Hoffa, you are just not being frank about it.
I asked you about something that happened 2 months ago, for instance,
about a conversation that you had with Johnny Dio. "I can't recall."
I asked you if he went up in the elevator with you. "I can't recall."
I asked if lie Avas in the hotel room with you. "I can't recall."
It is just impossible, Mr. Hoffa. You must recall what went on.
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Kennedy, if you want to ask me what happened
last week on certain instances, I cannot possibly recollect what I did
last week or the week before, and I doubt if any man in this room can
do it, unless you have something that you just do from day to day
and it is a uniformity.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, I bet anybody in this country can re-
member what conversation they had with Johnny Dio or whether
Johnny Dio was in their room 2 months ago.
Mr. Hoffa. I will venture to say that that is not correct, and I am
trying to be honest with this committee.
The Chairman. The witness takes the position that he cannot re-
member. That is a matter that is under his oatli. There may be those
that doubt the frankness and candidness of the witness, but he is
taking a position under oath that he cannot remember whether Johnny
Dio went with him to his room when he saw him in a hotel, whether
he went up in the elevator with him, or whether he later came to his
room on an occasion about 2 months ago.
That is the witness' sworn testimony.
All right, proceed. Ask him about the others.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss with Mr. Johnny Dio about the
chartering of any of these locals that we have been discussing these
last few months, these last few weeks?
Mr. Hoffa. I discussed the matter with John McNamara. I never
recall discussing with Dio.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have conversations with Mr. Dio during this
period of time ?
Mr. Hoffa. I could have had.
Mr. Kennedy. You mean you never discussed the fact that his
people were going to receive charters from the teamsters union ?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't recall discussing with Dio whether or not people
should come into the teamsters, because they were not with — ^because
Dio was not with that organization at that time.
The Chairman. Let us place the time on that so the record will be
very clear. These charters were issued last November ?
Mr. Kennedy. November of 1955.
The Chairman. When?
Mr. Kennedy. November of 1955.
5216 EMPROPEfi AcnvrriES in the labor field
The Chairman. Issued in November of 1955, and transactions con-
tinued on until in 1956 ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right. We have the date established and we
have the time. So it is in that area, now, about which you are interro-
gating the witness.
Let us proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss this matter with Johnny Dioguardi ?
Mr. HoFFA. During some conversation on the phone, I may have,
but I cannot recollect and I am sure that the charters were issued out
of the international office by the representatives handling the charter-
ing of it, and I do not recall whether or not it was discussed in any
conversation, lightly or otherwise. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Let us again get the record clear. We are talking
about seven bogus charters, or charters that were issued under circum-
stances that indicate that they were for the purpose of committing a
fraud.
They were issued to a number of gangsters and hoodlums, a group
like that, those seven. Do you want to identify them by number?
Mr. Kennedy. They are 295, 275, 851,_ 258, 269, 284 and 362.
The Chairman. At this time, the Chair will make the chart from
which the counsel reads a part of the record. It may be printed in
the record, or it may be made an exhibit, whichever way would be
proper to get it in there.
I am sorry, it has already been made a part of the record. I wanted
to keep the record straight so those who read it can be informed.
Mr. Kennedy. You think it is possible you did discuss it with
Johnny Dio ?
]Mr. HoFFA. I may have — not the issuance- 1 don't believe, but I may
have discussed some of the workings or mention of it, or something.
I don't recollect that. If you can give me some information that you
have, it may assist me in refreshing my memory.
Mr. Ivennedy. What sort of information would we have, do you
think?
Mr. HoFFA. I dont' know, sir. You seem to doubt my word. Maybe
you have some sort of information that could assist me.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Did you recommend or suggest to Mr. Beck that
these charters be issued ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, there is more to it than that, and if I may tell
you, it may clear the situation up.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you answer the question and then make an
explanation ?
Mr. HoFFA. I made a statement to Mr. Beck at the dedication of our
building that I had been told by John McNamara that Joe Curcio had
talked to him concerning the issuance or concerning the question of
their organization coming into the teamsters union if they would issue
charters for the divisions they had set up. Mr. Beck then told me
Mr. Kennedy. "Wliat do you mean the divisions that had set up?
What does that mean ?
Mr. HoFFA. I understood in thir amalgamated local, which was 649,
and I understand this from McNamara, that they had some sort of
divisional arrangement where certain individuals took care of certain
companies, and so forth, and, again, it was secondhand information
from McNamara. So he made the statement that if they would issue
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5217
charters on a divisional basis, they would come into the teamsters
union.
I relayed that information to President Beck. President Beck said
that the question should be taken up with Einar Mohn, and if they
brought in the proper application forms, and if there was sufficient
jurisdiction in New York- they would consider issuing the charters.
Now, I had previously, in the same day, mentioned the question
to Einar Mohn, and Einar Mohn said that I should take the matter
up with President Beck to tell him what to do. And that is exactly
what I did.
Mr. Kennedy. So you made a sugestion that these charters be
issued ?
Mr. HoFFA. I made a report to President Beck on something he had
told me to investigate about, and I had investigated through Mc-
Namara, the question of whether or not that organization would come
into ours, and he told me if those charters were issued they would.
Mr. Kennedy. What do you mean something he had asked you to
investigate ?
Mr. HoFFA. President Beck — as I say, it has to go back a little ways.
You just can't start off with the issuance of charters, because it didn't
start there.
President Beck at board meetings, conference meetings, and in
individual meetings, kept insisting that we push our organizational
effort, and that wliere local unions of other internationals had our
jurisdiction, that we should attempt to either take those members,
organize them away from the other unions, or get those unions to
come into our union.
And in particular, when I talked to Tony Doria about bringing his
organization, his total organization, into the teamsters union, and
setting up an industrial division, Tony Doria said that he believed
that they could call a convention and get their people to come into
the teamsters union under a divisional basis of industrial divisions.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat time was this ?
Mr. HoFFA. This had been going on for a matter of a year or so.
1 had been talking this matter over with Tony Doria almost each
time I met him.
Mr. Kennedy. This is the time that he came out of Milwaukee and
transferred to Los Angeles, transferred his headquarters to Los
Angeles, at a total cost to the union of about $450,000, and at the
same time he was having conversations with you about transferring
into the teamstei's union ?
Mr. PIoFFA. Of taking up with their convention the question of
setting up an industrial division in the teamsters union, and placing
before them the c{uestion of their organization coming into ours, and
President Beck said that he did not believe the AFL would allow
us to do that because of the conflict, but suggested, rather, that in New
York, where there was an amalgamated local and we had our juris-
diction, that we should attempt to get the New York local unions to
come into the teamsters union, and asked me to contact
Mr. Kennedy. Who?
Mr. HoFFA. Individuals in New York, and I made my own decision
who I should contact.
Mr. Kennedy. John McNamara is a close friend of yours ?
Mr. HoFFA, Very close.
5218 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Close associate of yours ?
Mr. HoFFA. For a number of years I have known John McNamara
in the union business.
Mr. Kennedy. And he is a close friend of Johnny Dioguardi's ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe he knows him. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You visited, the three of you, socially, did you not ?
Mr. HoFFA. We have had dinner.
Mr. Kennedy. They must be close to a certain degree, because they
are currently under indictment for extortion together.
Did you know that ?
]\Ir. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. So you talked to John McNamara ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And what did you say to John McNamara ?
Mr. HoFFA. I asked John McNamara to take the question up with
the officials of the UAW-AFL, and find out whether or not they were
willing to bring their organization into our organization in New York.
Then I told you what happened over a period of months. They dis-
cussed the question, and at the dedication of our building — —
Mr. Kennedy. This is the type of people that they reported back,
that they were dog- food maker, ballpoint pens, an optical company,
a printer, crucifix plater, brassworks, mattress maker, screw machine
manufacturer, ballbearing company, a toilet seat reconditioner ? You
wanted these people into the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, in the teamsters, we generally organize anybody
we can organize.
Mr. Kennedy. And that is them, is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. It could be anybody, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You feel, for instance, that a toilet seat reconditioner
is somebody that belongs in the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. We believe that any unorganized worker has an oppor-
tunity to join a union and if we can find the unorganized worker and
convince him, we would take him into the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. So you had this conversation with John McNamara
and he said these individuals wanted to come into the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. No. When we met in Washington for the dedication
of the building, I told McNamara that the merger was drawing close,
and I wanted a report from him as to whether or not he had been
able to get the job done I had asked him to do. McNamara said he
had discussed the question knowing he was going to see me in Wash-
ington, and would give me a report later in the evening.
However, he said that he was interested in separating his own local
union from Railway Express, and for air freight, into two charters.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator McNamara.
Senator McNamara. I hope by now that we have this McNamara
in Washington well identified in the record that he is John McNamara.
There may be some confusion with two McNamaras in Washington.
People have a habit of quoting from context.
The Chairman. The Chair will announce that any time the name
McNamara is used, unless it is used as that of a United States Senator,
it is John McNamara.
Let the record so show.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5219
Senator McNamara. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Proceed,
Mr. HoFFA. So the result was that MclSTamara told me, as I stated,
that he wanted to split his organization into two charters, air freight
and railway express.
I took the question up with Mohn. I took the question up with
Mohn. He informed me I should get ahold of President Beck, which
I did, I talked to President Beck about it, placed Mr. Mohn on the
phone at the request of Mr. Beck, and Mr. Beck, I am quite sure, even
though I didn't hear it I talked to Mohn afterward, told Mohn to
issue a charter for air freight, splitting it out of the railway express
drivers union, because everybody who knew anything about transpor-
tation knew that the air freight was a coming industry, and we needed
somebody to concentrate on air freight.
Later on in the evening, McNamara told me that he had talked to
Curcio and that they were willing, as I stated before, to come into the
teamsters union if they could get charters for the divisions.
Mr. Kennedy. So what happened? Did he go up to New York
and pick up the names and then return to Washington?
Mr. HoFFA. You say did he go to New York ?
Mr. Kennedy. Did he, after this conference on November 4, go
up to New York, or was he in New York and did he within a few
days bring the names of those applicants for the charters back to
Washington ?
Mr. HoFFA. AVell, that night I left Washington it was my under-
standing he was going to see Mohn the next day, and they would
work out the details.
I could give you what I understand without having it at my
knowledge. I wasn't there.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. HoFFA. It is my understanding that McNamara secured the
names for the charters, brought them into the international office
Mr. IvENNEDY. From whom?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know that.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't ask? You didn't go that far to find
that out ?
Mr, HoFFA. Well, I would assume that he got them from — well,
I couldn't tell you. I can't tell you. I assume, though, that Curcio
had his divisional people in for some nature. I don't know how else
he would do it.
But, in any event, they were brought to Washington, and it also
is my understanding, I wasn't there, that they sat down and worked
out the descriptions of the charters, and then issued the charters.
I understand there is some conflict as to when they did issue them or
didn't issue them. That I couldn't clear up one way or the other
except from what I read or what I hear,
Mr. Kennedy. And the charters were issued at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, as I say, there is some conflict of exactly when
they were, and I don't think that has been resolved yet ?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you examine at all into the type of people that
you were attempting to bring into the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. I personally didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. You knew, of course, from newspaper accounts of
the racketeering that had existed in this group of locals under
5220 IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Jolmny Dio, the extortion of Topazio, Joe Cohen, Gasster, George
Cohen, and the difficulty Curcio and Davidoff had been in, their
backgrounds, their records, George Carmel, Harry Reiss, Arthur
Santa Maria, Dominick Santa Maria, Max Chester? These were
people that were in difficulty with the AFL-CIO, these were people
that charges had been made against for racketeering, these were the
people that were making sweetheart contracts. And you were sug-
gesting that they come into the teamsters union ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr, Kennedy, I don't know. You are reading off
something you developed out of this hearing.
But I don't think you expect me to sit here and say that I can
recall that anybody ever discussed with me such things as you have
uncovered, because I think they would have kept it very quiet and
secret.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me tell you what had been made public.
Mr. HoFFA. Wliat had been?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Let me tell you.
No. 1, Dio had been indicted and convicted for receiving money from
a nonunion shop while a labor union leader. That happened in 1954.
He was indicted in 1953 and was convicted in 1954, and went to jail
in 1954, during this period of your close friendship.
He hired Benny the Bug Ross. He hired Joe Curcio, a liquor
bootlegger. He obtained a charter for Abe Goldberg, who had just
been convicted of extortion in Philadelphia. He hired Anthony To-
pazio and Joe Cohen. Topazio became the No. 2 man and Joe Cohen
and he were immediately convicted of extortion.
This is still in 1952.
Hogan had blasted Dio and said his local existed to extort from the
public. The AFL had decided to investigate. Another local charter
was granted to George Snyder, who was accused of making sweetheart
contracts.
In 1953 a charter had been granted to Henry Gasster and George
Cohen who had been convicted of extortion. That was in the news-
papers.
On February 2, 1953, the AFL executive council ordered local 102's
charter revoked after 9 months of investigation, and on charges of
racketeering.
April of 1953 was when Dio was indicted.
In November of 1953, a charter had been granted to 227, which
was a group of hoodlums headed up by Max Chester, a group that had
been kicked out of 496 of the Chemical Workers Union. This is the
same group that came over into the teamsters.
In December of 1953, Harry Davidoff, with a long criminal record,
was granted a charter.
In March of 1954, Dio was convicted of income-tax evasion.
In 1954, Max Chester and Arthur Santa Maria were indicted for
extortion.
In April 1954, Lester Washburn had kicked the local out of the union
for being racketeer dominated.
And m 1955, Dio set up a company called Equitable Research,
which was involved in selling protection.
All these things were going on. There were articles being written
about it during this whole period of time.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5221
You had known that they were kicked out, because you made a
statement, accordmg to two newspapers, in May of 1954, that you were
glad that the executive board of the UAW had restored the charters
in New York City, and that these charters being restored would restore
peace and harmony in New York.
These are the people that you were working toward getting into the
teamsters union at that time.
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, you are assuming that I knew all those
individuals.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, all these things were in the press. Every other
labor union leader knew them. You were active in New York. You
were taking responsibility in New York.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I just wonder why, and I think the people to ask
those questions is the president of the then — the then president of the
joint council and the vice president in charge of the organization, be-
cause if all those things were going on in that area, and the president
of the council was also president of the city federation, why they
didn't take and investigate and file charges against those individuals in
the labor union 2
Now, I certainly cannot sit here and assume the responsibility of
those individuals, because I made no investigation and simply told
President Beck as to what Curcio had said they would do to come
into our organization, and the decision was made by President Beck
in regard to the question of issuing the charters.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Mr. Hoffa, you took the positive action and you were
the one that came in from the central conference of teamsters from
Michigan and you came into New York and you were the one that,
suggested that these charters be issued.
You were the one that suggested that these individuals with these-
records and their association with Jolmny Dio, come into the teams-
ters union. It was at that time that the general organizer Hickey
and the joint council were circumvented. You were the one.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, now, as I stated before, I was requested by Presi-
dent Beck
Mr. Kennedy. To make an investigation, you told us that already
and you did not make an investigation.
Mr. HoFFA, I did not say to make an investigation, Mr. Kennedy,
if I may correct the record.
I said President Beck asked me to see whether or not I could find
somebody in New York wlio could get those organizations into — or
that organization, into our organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliy didn't you go to the joint council, or why
didn't you go to the general organizer? Again, why didn't you go
to the representative of the teamsters in the area, and the exact dupli-
cation of what you were trying to do in 1953 when you were trying
to establish your own foothold in New York, and you were trying
to circumvent Tom Hickey, and you repeated it in 1955 ?
You were trying to circumvent Tom Hickey and the joint council
in order to establish your own organization in New York, that was
answerable to Jimm;^ Hoffa in Detroit, Mich. ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is a question?
Mr. I^nnedy. That is a question. Why did you do it?
Mr. HoFFA. Because I was given an assignment by the general
president in both instances, to try to work out a situation.
5222 iiMPROPER ACTwrriES in the labor field
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, are you trying to place the blame for
all of this on Dave Beck ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir; if I had any other responsibility I would ac-
cept it, sir.
The Chairman. You did not have the responsibility to the
teamsters union to try to keep it clean, honorable, and keep it from
coming into disrepute.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir ; I accept that responsibility, and after listen-
ing to this committee operate, I can make a positive statement on that
question if you care to have me make it.
The Chairman. Make it positive.
Mr. Hoffa. If I am elected president of this international union,
there will be considerable less charters in existence in New York out
of what has developed out of these hearings.
The Chairman. Based on tlie information tiie committee lias, and
your inability to remember to help the committee you will certainly
have to make a decided cliange in Hoffa, if you accomplish that.
Mr. Hoffa. Well, sir, I will be held accountable for what I said
here as to the actions I perform.
Mr. Kennedy. Does that mean that vou are intending to lift tlie
charters of these various locals, 362, 284, 269, and 258 ?
Mr. Hoffa. I would say, Mr. Kennedy, that what should be or I
believe Avould be the cure for the situation would be to go in and liave
a thorough investigation, not deprive those individuals who are in the
union of not having a union, but get what unions or wiiat union — I
do not believe there is a necessity for all of the unions now, that we
see what we see, what union they should be in.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you are not kicking them out for information
that the committee developed, or you woidd not be moving against
them, and I do not want to use the words "kicking out," but you would
not be moving against tliem for anything the committee developed
because you do not know wliether you have jurisdiction ?
Mr. Hoffa. That is not correct. I am making a statement from
what I have seen unfolded here, and wdiat I read in the newspaper,
would motivate me taking the action that I am talking about here.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Because of the evidence of racketeering, the evi-
dence of collusion, or because of the fact that you question wiiether
a paper products company or glass dealers should be in the teamsters
union ?
Which is the reason ?
Mr. Hoffa. I am not questioning the right of a glassworker to be
in the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the reason ?
Mr. Hoffa. It is the reason of what has been uncovered here as to
the operations of those union individuals.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, wh}^ do the teamsters have to wait un-
til after your election to get some action ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, sir, if you will read our constitution, it is rather
a complex situation. We are attempting and we worked late last
night trying to correct it. Again, I do not want to place the blame
and I won't mention the name, but our principal officer has consider-
able authority under the constitution, and it is not just as easy as it
sounds to pick up a charter.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5223
The Chairman. You think that situation should be remedied?
Mr. HoFFA. I assure you that I have recommended provisions in
our constitutional clianges which will correct that situation because
in the first instance I have said, and propose, and I think it will be
adopted, the charters w^ill clear through either the joint council or
the State conference before they are issued, which will place the re-
sponsibility on the local people who ought to know the local
characters.
Senator I^^s. Mr. Chairman, may I ask Mr. Hoffa a question here ?
Now, please pay attention to wliat I am asking you, Mr, Holi'a,
because it is very important. It is very far reaching. You just said
that you rather anticipated or intimated you will be president of the
international.
Mr. Hoffa. From indications around the country, I believe so.
Senator Ives. I will not argue with you about that. The thing
that causes us substantial fear in that connection — and I cannot answer
for the other members of the committee, but I know I am answering
for the feeling of a lot of Americans in this, including myself:
Wliat are you going to do after you are elected, if you are elected?
You have consorted with all of these bums and these criminals and
everything else throughout your career practically. Are you going to
continue to do that if you are elected president of the international?
Mr. Hoffa. I intend to conduct myself in keeping with respecta-
bility when I become president of the international union because I
realize, more so than anybody else, that the people >vho can put me
in office can take me out of office.
Senator Ivp:s. You realize you are going to have a real opportunity
to do a lot of good ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. And you are going to have a great opportunity to do
a lot of harm ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Senator Ives. What is it going to be— good or bad that you are going
to do?
Mr. Hoffa. I recognize both responsibilities; and, in my opinion,
my record after I am in office will be the only way I can prove to people
of the Legislature, individuals, as to my conduct.
I will not be ashamed of it, I am quite sure.
Senator Ives. Tliat is your record after you have been in office.
Your record up to the time you get into office isn't too good. I am
telling you that, if you don't recognize it yourself.
Now, are you going to change yourself around, and really do the
kind of a job I know you are capable of doing? You have ability, and
you have u high I. Q. ; I have told you that time and again. You can
do a lot of good in this world, if you will. Are you going to do it?
Mr. Hoffa. Senator, I would say in my own particular area I have
done as much good for the workingman as any individual in the United
States. I will take my contracts that I have negotiated, and my pro-
cedures, and compare them with any union in the same area, and I
intend to do the same thing on an overall basis if I become president.
Senator Ives. That is all right for your area, and I won't dispute you
on that because I don't know anything about, it and so I can't. JBut
I know what you have been consorting with in the way of people in
5224 IMPROPER ACTTVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
New York City. I know that isn't doing you any good and it isn't
doing New York City any good.
Mr. HoFFA. And I recognize that.
Senator Ives. Or the unions any good.
Mr. HoFFA. And I recognize it, sir.
Senator Ives. Are you going to do what I have asked you to do?
This is just between you and me.
Mr. HoFFA. I will tell you, Senator, that if I become president of
this international I will accept my responsibilities and deal with the
individuals in such away that will not bring any harm to the labor
movement.
Senator I\t3S. That isn't the question I raised but it seems to be the
best I can get out of you.
Mr. Kennedy. I just want to point out that
Mr. HoFFA. You are pointing out, Senator, and I want to ask if
you mean, am I going to run a good union ?
Senator I^^3S. That is exactly what I mean.
Mr. HoFFA. The answer is, Absolutely yes.
.Senator Ives. And you are going to cease to have anything to do
with this element that you have been dealing with. That is the thing
I am interested in. You are there as international president, if you
get elected, and you are going to have to represent the individual
workers; that is your problem. It is not to associate with a lot of
bums who haven't any interest in the individual workers at all.
Mr. HoFFA. I recognize that responsibility, and the union will be
run for the benefit of the members and will be corrected where it
needs correcting.
Senator Ives. I know you are a man of your word in some ways, and
you have that reputation, as I pointed out yesterday, and I am going
to count on you to do that if you are elected.
Senator McNamara. Wliile there is an interruption, I would like
to ask the witness a couple of questions.
We have had in and out of these hearings at various times some
testimony and in fact we had the gentleman before us, one Nate Shef-
ferman.
Do you know him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I know Nate ShefFerman.
Senator McNamara. It seems to me he has had considerable influ-
ence with the teamsters in some areas of the country. Have you been
doing business with him in connection with your work?
Mr. HoFFA. He has a representative in our district, and I don't
believe that Shefferman ever negotiated a contract in Detroit, Senator
McNamara.
Senator McNamar-v. I have before me a list of 121 clients of his in
Detroit and Michigan. I notice on the list some firms where there
have been great attempts to organize. Perhaps the most outstanding
on this list is the J. L. Hudson Co., in Detroit. I think that you
participated in some attempts to organize that.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir, we have filed petitions with the Board and we
have organized the employees, and unfortunately, the way the law is
drafted today, we are precluded from accepting the warehouse and
the drivers that we wanted to represent from the retailing end, and
we have failed to organize that company.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5225
Senator McNamara. Since he is established as a sort of an indus-
trial labor management company, and he is incidentally a business-
man and not a union man, but we are investigating, this committee,
improper activities of management and labor together, and it seems
appropriate to ask you if you have had any dealings with him during
the J. L. Hudson attempt to organize, or represent the workers.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that his representative, not Mr. Shefferman
directly, if I can recall, I don't think Mr. Shefferman was directly
involved.
Senator McNamara. That is his representative but not with him ?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't recall talking to him.
Senator McNamara. Who were you dealing with as representative ?
Mr. HoFFA. George Cavano.
Senator McNa]mara. You have had no personal connections with
Mr. Shefferman?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I have talked to him.
Senator McNamara. Have you done any business with him? We
found him in business with certain teamster officials. Were you asso-
ciated in a business way with him, and I mean in a business way by
joint ventures?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. I had no joint ventures with Shefferman.
Senator McNamara. You discussed this morning a display in Chi-
cago of some two-way equipment. So the truckdrivers could contact
their base, and back and forth, and there was some other person in-
volved besides yourself and Dio in the Chicago meeting. That would
not be Shefferman or one of his representatives ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, I don't know. There were two of them and I don't
know either one of their names, and have forgotten them.
Senator McNamara. As far as you know Mr. Shefferman had
nothing to do with it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe he did, at least it wasn't brought to my
attention.
Senator McNamara. Were you aware that he had so many accounts
in Detroit and in the Flint area ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I know
Senator McNamara. And a Chevrolet dealership, and Bond Clothes,
and a lot of accounts, and the Flint Fireproofing Warehouse people,
and these are people that you do business with generally as far as
trucking is concerned.
Mr. Hoffa. I would say that almost everywhere we organized,
whether they represented them or not, they always seemed to become
acquainted with the person we organized in many instances, and in
many types of industries.
Senator McNamara. You mean Shefferman ?
Mr. Hoffa. His concern.
Senator McNamara. As I look over this list, it seems to me that they
are predominantly people who are not organized. I wondered if there
was any indication here that perhaps because Shefferman was their
representative, that through some of his methods the purpose of
organizing was defeated or attempts to organize.
Mr. Hoffa. I would say that they know every trick in the book to
keep you from organizing their people, and they use them.
r
5226 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator McNamara. You apparently don't think too much of Mr.
Shefferman as far as organized labor is concerned.
Mr. HoFFA. We have consistently argued with them.
Senator McNAi\rARA. When JMr. Shefferman appeared before this
committee in March, he testified that he had made tremendous pur-
chases for people, largely in the teamsters union, and in one instance
amounting to about $85,000, paid out of Shefferman"s funds. Has he
performed any similar services for 3'ou i
Mr. IIoFFA. He hasn't performed any services for me to any extent.
He may liaA^e sent me a Christmas card, or a small Christmas gift, but
nothing of any size of any description.
Senator McNA:\rAKA. Did you know that the Service Parking Co,
is one of the accounts he has in the Detroit area i That is Service
Parking, and they operate most of the parking lots in the downtown
Detroit area.
Mr- HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. I think there have been 5 or 6 attempts made to
organize those people.
Did you run into Shefferman in that ?
Mr. HoFFA. There was a tremendous strike, and a strike was lost,
and they represented them.
Senator ISIcNamara. They represented them ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. It seems that there is the record of Shefferman,
wherever he enters into the case, the people don't get organized.
Mr. HoFFA. Xo: not in our particular instance. We have won al-
most every right with them.
Senator McNamara. How about the Service Parking lots? Have
you organized them ?
Mr. Hoffa, I believe we have some of their garages, connected with
the establishments. But their open-air parking lots, I don't think
we have been able to get.
Senator McNamara. We keep running into this character all over
the country and it is a very interesting role he plays, and you probably
read the story about his operation in one of the leading magazines,
Reader's Digest ; wasnt' it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Certainly that indicates you were dealing with
a very shady character that represented management. All of the
shady characters I want to point out are not on the side of organized
labor.
Thank you.
The Chairman. They are not, but when they get together, from
both, the public suffers.
_ Senator Muxdt. Following through a little bit on the line of ques-
tioning that Senator McNamara was taking, testimony before this
committee, Mr. Hoffa, is to the effect that among his other activities,
Shefferman runs a sort of a migratory discount house. Have you ever
patronized his discount house ? I am not talking about what he gave
you, but he has a habit of getting big discounts for labor leaders, or
perhaps management, who want to buy furniture or outboard motoi-s
or television sets and and things of that kind.
Have you ever patronized that discount house ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5227
Mr. HorrA. I don't believe, sir, that I have. If I did, and I have to
qualify it, it would be very small. I don't believe I did, though.
Senator Mundt. You probably would remember if you had.
Mr. HoFFA. It wouldn't be of any size, so therefore I wouldn't re-
member it, and I can't recall ever doing it. But I don't want to over
a period of years forget something, and that is why I have to qualify it.
Senator Mundt. To the best of your recollection, you never have ?
Mr. HoFFA. I dont' believe so, to the best of my knowledge.
Senator Mundt. You were telling us you worked late last night
after a rather busy day.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Senator Mundt. On your constitutional problems, for the forthcom-
ing convention ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Senator Mundt. If I understood you correctly, one of your recom-
mendations for a constitutional change was that henceforth no local
charters in the teamsters union would be granted unless they had been
approved by either the joint council in charge, or the State council
in charge, or the local authority of the teamsters union, because you
said they would know better about the character of the people getting
the charter, and about the needs I suppose and jurisdictional problems
and so on ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. It isn't quite that broad. The charter must be submitted
to the joint council, or to the State conference, and I believe or to the
area conference if you don't have either a State or a joint council.
They then make a recommendation. The recommendation could be
overruled by the executive board, but they would have to have a
hearing with the individuals first concerned.
Senator Mundt. At the hearing both the people applying for the
charter and the local authorities of the teamsters board that had op-
posed the charter would be lieard ; is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir ; that is our proposal. It hasn't been passed by
the convention yet.
Senator Mundt. The difference as I understand it between that and
the situation under which you are supposed to operate now, in the
New York area, would be this hearing device.
Under the Mohn agreement of 1954, it was then agreed that the local
council would have to make a recommendation ; was it not ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir; under our present constitution.
Senator Mundt. I am talking about the agreement between Einar
Mohn and the local people, and not about what is in your constitution.
Mr. HoFFA. There was some kind of an agreement and I don't
know whether it was written or oral.
Senator Mundt. I don't either, but there was an understanding, that
both sides confirmed, that tliere would be no charters issued in New
York without the prior approval either of your local vice president and
organizer, or of your joint council, I have forgotten which. That
agreement was violated.
Mr. HoFFA. I think it was the joint council.
Senator Mundt. I think it was, too. That agreement was violated.
No hearing procedure was put in motion insofar as the breaking of
that agreement was concerned ; am I right about that ?
Mr. HoFFA. You mean after it was made ?
89330 — 57— pt. 13 20
r
5228 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. Yes after it was made, the so-called pliony unions
were brought in, and they were brought in in violation of the agreement
over the bitter protest of President Lacey, and Vice President Hickey.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that is correct.
Senator Mundt. So that the agreement, at least without its constitu-
tional reinforcement, and the agreement without the hearing procedure
that you seek to establish, the agreement bein^ violated has brought
about the kettle of fish that has necessitated these hearings, and has
taken you away from your campaign activities for at least 3 days.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I want to say this to you : To the best of my
knowledge, when I discussed this question concerning their willingness
to come into the teamsters, our international union I believe uncon-
sciously, and I don't believe anybody did it deliberately, but uncon-
sciously failed to notify the joint council of the anticipated charters.
I believe that is what caused the problem.
Senator Mundt. At all events you do recognize that that is not a
good wliolesome procedure to follow. That is, to have your central
office upset the recommendations of your local representatives, unless
there can be a hearing procedure established so that you can adjudicate
the facts.
Mr. HoFFA. That is what we are recommending and that is what we
believe is proper.
Senator Mundt. Those recommendations that you worked on last
night stem in part out of the difficulties that have ensued from this
New York City situation.
Mr. HoFFA. No ; I have been on the constitutional committee three
different times, I believe, and we have discussed this question, and I
personally discussed it because of being head of a joint council. I
have discussed this question of charters, and it was always left as it
was.
But now, more so than ever, after this situation has been developed,
more so than ever it proves up the necessity of having that in the con-
stitution.
Senator Mundt. Well, is that not just a long way of saying "Yes"
to the question that I asked you ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, yes, but I want to make the explanation, that we
didn- 1 j ust try this time. We tried other times.
Senator Mundt. In other words, this is a new element that is going
to come in to take you off of dead center, in your constitutional change ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I believe you are right.
Senator jNIundt. You said this morning that you believed that part
of the function of the teamsters was to organize the unorganized,
whether they happen to be truckers, or crucifix gilders, or wherever
they happen to work, is that right ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, sir.
Senator Mundt. Now, in that program, and I am not quarreling
with tliat program, in that program do you think that a labor leader
who is active as a labor leader qualifies as a good labor leader if at the
same time he is the proprietor of a shop that he refuses to hire union
labor?
Mr. HoFFA. I would say "No."
Senator Mundt. Do you not think that labor leaders should practice
Avliat you preach to employers ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5229
Mr. HoFFA. More so.
Senator MuNDT. I would think so, more so.
And you are aware, of course, that among the other charges against
Johnny Dioguardi is the admitted fact that while he was a president
of union 102 he was not only the owner for awhile of that shop that
refused to hire union labor, but when he sold the shop he took an
$11,000 payment, or call it a bribe, or call it an consideration, or call it
extortion, what you will, but he took an $11,000 payment in order to
insure the new employer that he wouldn't have to employ union labor.
Do you think that is a reprehensible practice on his part ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think it is very bad.
Senator Mundt. I think so, too. It is not a question of fact, because
he did what so many people do who chisel in some direction. He
forgot to report it on his Federal income tax. Certainly you do not
want to surround yourself as the forthcoming president, seeing that
your campaign is progressing, as I suggested to you yesterday, talking
kbout you as the president or a forthcoming president, of the team-
sters, with leaders who do not speak for labor but who speak for others.
Mr. HoFFA. I agree with your sentiments.
Senator Mundt. You can understand that the Members of Congress
are a little bit concerned about the kind of people with whom you
associate yourselves since the teamsters' temple is so close to us. It is
part of the environment of the Hill. We do not want to have that place
inhabited by a lot of hoodlums, a lot of crooks, a lot of thugs. We
want responsible, respectable men.
I was glad to have you assure Senator Ives in this little personal
agreement that you had just between yourselves in secret, shared only
by those who listen to tlie television and who hear the radio and who
read it in the press, that when you get in there you are going to do your
best to see to it that the kind of people that you surround yourself with
are good citizens. And I hope you will answer that you are going to
surround yourself only with loyal citizens, who are good American
patriots.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe, even though I may have had some
failings in regard to one element, I don't have it in the other element.
Senator Mundt. I have never heard any accusations made against
you, Mr. Hoffa, that you were friendly with Communists. You are
right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Hoffa, I am going to watch with interest for
this Dromised millennium. I want to ask you a question in regard to it.
In your colloquy with Senator Ives and Senator Mundt, were you
confining your hopes of reform to your promised reforms to the inter-
national union only, or does it involve changes that would call for
reforms in other units of the teamsters union, such as tlie locals, the
State conferences, the area conferences, and the joint councils?
Mr. Hoffa. Senator, when I talk international, I believe the inter-
national covers all of the phases you are talking about. However, I
want to make sure that we understand each other. I don't want
Senator Ives to say that I didn't keep my word.
Senator Ives. May I butt in there? Then we have to get going,
because we will not finish you up today if we do not. But I want to
r
5230 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
make Olio (liiiio- clear in what I said. I am not exonerating you in
ai\y '^^'Jiy, shape, or manner. What you have to do is prove yourself.
Mr. lloFFA. Senator, 1 want to be sure that Ave understana. Each
case stands on its own.
Senator Ives. Eight.
The CiiAiKMAN. AH rii>lit. T^et us [)roceed.
Senator Curtis. Were you Ihrouiih answerino- tlie question?
Mr. IloFFA. 1 :\nswered your ([uesrion, sir, and at the end by saying
wlieu you nia(U> the broad statement that it wouldn't be any blanket
disruption of our organization, but each case would be looked upon
on its own.
Senator Citrtis. When you made your statement about the program
that you would inaugurate, you were speaking of the entire teamsters
union and not conlining it to the international %
Mr. J loKFA. That is right, sir.
Senator Cuutis. In bringing that about, will certain presidents, em-
I)lovees, ollicers and organizers and others in the teamsters union lose
their jobs ^
]\Ir. lIoFFA. Again I say it would be an individual basis, based
upon what they did, who they are, and rather than taking a blanket
sweep. You would have to take each case individually to determine
the merits or demerits ol" the particular case.
Senator (^uuris. All right, not referring to a blanket sweep, but on
the basis of the knoAvledge ami information you have now, will there
be any individuals removed from the teamsters union '.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Will you name them ?
INIr. IIoFFA. I cannot at this moment, because I don't know tlie in-
dividuals, except looking at those charts and listening to this situa-
tion. I would have to have investigations made of them, as rapidly
as possible, and hearings, before I could move. I am not trying to
say it would take an iiidertnite period of time, but it would be in all
good conscience to those individuals to give them an opportunity to
appear.
Senator Curtis. That Avould be after tlie hearing?
Mr. ItoFFA. Yes. It has to be, naturally, in our constitution.
Senator Curtis. On the basis of the inside knowledge that you
luiA-e had all of these years in the teamsters union, you would still
have to liave a hearing?
Mr. IloFFA. Under the constitution I would have to have, or else
they could go to court or to the board against me.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Senator JSIuxdt. I have one other question in that connection. You
have told this committee, and Ave applauded you for it, that insofar
as you personally Avere concerned in connection Avith A'our A^arious
economic enterprises, vou expected to comph' Avith the ethical stand-
ards code of the AFl/CIO.
A[r. IToFFA. Tliat is correct.
Senator jNTundt. Noav I Avould like to take you one step further.
If my understanding is correct, at the Miami meeting the sole dis-
senting A'otes against the adoption of that code Avere cast by the
teamsters union. Yon Avere not at that time the general president,
so you did not determine the policy. I Avonder if you can giA'e this
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 5231
committee and the foniitry some assurance that if yon are elected the
international president of tlie teamsters, you Avill either go along
with tliat code, wliich I think tlie country recognizes as a very com-
mendable step in the right direction, or, if not, adopt for yourself,
in your own organization, a code which incorporates in tlie main
those same features.
Mr. HoFFA. Senator, in our caucus hearing, I was the spokesman,
and I don't shirk my responsibility in the executive board or liere.
I do not agree, and I am very sorry and respectful when I say it to
you, I do not agree that I liave the right, nor will I recommend to
anybody, that they do not have all of tlie constitutional privileges
that American citizens may liave.
That will not preclude us from liolding hearings after they have
exercised their constitutional rights. But they have certain con-
stitutional rights, and I would be the last person, and I will never
vote m favor of attempting to take away one of those constitutional
rights and deprive a man of his employment because lie had a con-
stitutional privilege which he exercised without giving him a hear-
ing to determine wdiy.
(At this point, Senator Gold water withdrew from tlie hearing
room, )
Senator Mundt. Let us examine that a little. As I understood tliis
ethical practices code, it does not deny the right of an American citi-
zen to enjoy all of his rights, his constitutional rights. It lets him do
that. But it says to him, "You also have some responsibility to the
union. You cannot exercise your constitutional rights before a grand
jury, or a congressional committee, or a judicial proceding, if in so
doing you bring disrepute on the labor union and thereby do injury
to the millions of men who belong to the union. You cannot exer-
cise your personal rights to the detriment of the lights of the work-
ing men and women of this counf ry.*'
That is a little different questiVm, a little different situation.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that the AFT^CIO itself is taking a look at
its original position on tliat question.
Senator Muxdt. And in its look at that question so far it does not
say that a man cannot or should not be a labor-union member and take
the fifth amendment, but it does say if he takes the fifth amendment
and in so doing brings disrepute upon his union, he cannot be an
officer of the union, which is something different.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, that is where we differ. I say that a man has
a right to exercise his constitutional rights and have a trial by jury,
if he so desires it.
Senator Muxdt. Of course he does. But does he have a right to
bring disrepute upon the members whose dues make his position
possible and thereby jeopardize their livelihood, jeopardize their repu-
tation, and weaken their position in society? Do labor-union leaders
have rights apart from the rights of the men and women who comprise
their union and make their jobs possi?jle ?
Mr. HoFFA. Xo, sir. I want to give them the same rights. That is
why I don't want to deprive them of the Constitution.
Senator Muxdt. You are not depriving them of their constitutional
rights, if you say as the ethical practices code does, "if you elect to
exercise those rights, and in so doing you injure the union, you can no
longer represent it in an official capacity."
5232 IMPROPER AcnvrriES in the labor field
Mr. HoFFA. You may not injure the union by taking the fifth amend-
ment because you may, when you go to trial, be fomid completely
innocent.
Senator Mundt. It certainly has not done any union I know of any
good, for any of its officers to come here and take the fifth amendment.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't agree or I wouldn't be here today. It would
have been much easier for me to come in here and use my constitutional
right, recognizing there is television here and everybody can hear what
I am saying. By the same token, I do not want to deprive anyone of
their constitutional right that they are given as American citizens.
Senator Mundt. How far would you carry that? Let us say that
one of the locals over which you have jurisdiction has an officer who
is accused by evidence which is available to public enforcement agen-
cies of being a Communist. He is brought in and given a hearing.
They say, "Are you or have you ever been a member of the Com-
munist Party," and he says, "I refuse to answer," and takes the fifth
amendment.
Do you think he should continue under those circumstances to be
the head of the union ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't say that, sir. I say we should hold a hearing
to determine why he took the fifth amendment and act accordingly.
Senator Muxdt. Would it not seem appropriate that at least until
the hearing is held, at least until such time as he is vindicated by your
own investigation, that the presumption should be that he should no
longer function as a labor union leader after taking the fifth
amendment ?
Would you go that far ?
Mr. HoFFA. In certain instances, yes.
Senator ISIundt. You would go that far ?
Mr. HoFFA. In certain instances, yes.
The Chairman. Senator Ervin ?
Senator Ervin. Mr. Hoffa, I ask you whether you agree with me in
this opinion : That every union officer ought to conduct the affairs of
the union coming within his jurisdiction in such a manner that he
will not have to invoke the fifth amendment when he is called on to
give an account of his conduct as a union officer.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I can't speak for individuals. I would hope that
would happen, but I can't speak for everybody concerned.
Senator Ervin. I am asking you, though, whether you agree in the
opinion that a union officer ought to conduct his conduct of union
affairs in such a way that he will not feel obligated or justified in in-
voking the fifth amendment when he is called on to give an account of
his handling of union affairs, as an officer?
Mr. HoFFA. I could not quarrel with that.
(At this point. Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. The Chair wishes to make this observation for the
information of the committee members and others.
We had hoped to conclude the interrogation of this witness today
and, in fact, to conclude this series of hearings.
The staff has considerably more material and matters here to inter-
rogate the witness about. The Senators have a perfect right to ques-
tion and that right is going to be recognized by the Chair. Any time
that a Senator wishes to address the Chair he will be recognized.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5233
I am simply mentioning this so that you may all know what the
situation IS. If it means a Saturday session or coming back next week
1 do not think anyone will be happy with either. But that is where we
are leading to. Let us try to get right down to the point here. When
we have these interruptions, it makes it necessary for the chief coun-
sel to go back and repeat some things to get it all back on the track
again and, therefore, delays occur.
afSni"^' ^* ^^ ^^^' ^^^ "^^^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^ through to a finish this
Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
M^^'f n^rM^^^' ^''- ^''v ' ""^^ l"""^ ^"^"'^ *° "^^^^ ''^^ investigation of
^L'^^t^ McNamara? You said m answer to Senator -
Mr.HoFFA. Yes, we will.
Mr. Kj:nnedy. In answer to Senator Ives' question, that you will
make an investigation of some of these people involved. As I under-
SraTenTup^^ndgTthJtm^^^^^^ '''' '"'^'''''^'^ ^"^ '^'^^ ^-
tion ^fj^^McSral ^''"- ^^^ ^^" ^^^^^^ *^ ^^^^ ^^ ^-^^^g-
Mr. HoFFA. There will be.
Mr. Kennedy. There will be an investigation of him «
Mr.HoFFA. There will be.
Mr. Kennedy. Because of what has been revealed here «
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct.
h^I{ ^^^^5^^- ^^^^ ti^e fact that he got the names of some of these
hoodlums and gangsters on these charters, are you going to make an
investigation of his use of those names ? ^ ^
Mr. HoFFA. On the overall investigation.
,i«^'ff ''''?''''''• Because you are shocked and disturbed about him
using these types of people on these charters, is that right?
f h^r* ^Tt ^^"i-^ '^"^ '!'°,^^^^^ ^^^ disturbed, very inuch as to what
nvesti'^./r^'^'^'^' ^'^' ^^^^.^^ they got there, and insofar as the
investigation s concerned, it will take care of the situation I believe,
to the most critical that is here. "cuevy,
beW n!^^''''''- -^//^'^ ^n?' ""'^^ *™^' ^^ ^^^y ^'^^^ been developed
jln M^^^^^^^^^^^ ''''" ^"^ ''^^''' disciplinary action agaSist
U^^^itness conferred with his counsel.)
answer u""* "^"'^ "" ^^^oment. Eepeat the question, please. I will
ha^^'bJprilt.f If the facts are true regarding John McNamara that
have been developed before this committee, will you take disciplinary
action against, him, your friend « Fimctij^
th^'";STv* I'^^^f /^ ^'^^?'^^' ^//^ ^' developed that the facts the way
actfon '^^"^^^^P^"^ ^'^''^^ friendship or not, we will take the proper
Mr. Kennedy. Does that mean the proper disciplinary action ?
Mr.HoFFA. Proper disciplinary action.
Mr Kennedy. You said that these people wanted to get into the
teamsters union or wanted someplace to go from the UAW, AFL.
For instance, in local charter 651, the officers of that union, for instance
do with f l?p VTa w'\'Sf ^''^^^ °^ ^ ^^^"^^' ^t«^^- H^ ^'^^ nothing to
TX^W ^A^',,"^^^-. ^^n yo^ explain that to the committee?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't explain it.
5234 EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIE1.D
Mr. Kennedy. Why was he listed as a president of that local 651 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot explain it.
Mr. Kennedy. You are not taking any responsibility for any of
these people i
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot assume the responsibility for the officers that
they placed at the head of the oiganization.
(At this point, Senators McClellan and McNamara withdrew from
the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. The other thing, Mr. Hoffa, that you said, was that
these individuals from the UAW, AFL, wanted to come over into the
teamsters union. Why did they not come over into the teamsters
union ?
Mr. Hoffa. I said McNamara reported that to me.
Mr. Kennedy. You are putting all this on Mr. McNamara ; is that
I'ight ?
Mr. Hoffa. I am making a statement as to what happened between
McNamara and I.
Mr. Kennedy. Then Mr. NcNamara reported falsely to you because
none of these individuals came over, is that right ?
Mr. Hoffa. I don't know whether he reported falsely or not, be-
cause I don't know if he knows exactly what happened.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, these charters — let's find out what you did.
When 3'ou found out that there was all of this furor about it in the
early part of 1956, what action did 3^ou take to find out whether these
locals had members, whether these locals were gangster run, whether
there were racketeers in charge of them ?
^Vhat did you do, then, Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Kennedy, it was not mj' responsibility in the New^
York area to do anything and the general president was enjoined by
Martin Lacey from carrying out the vote of the regular delegates to
the joint council and, also, the general president, I believe at that time,
put a director, set up an office in New York and put a director of
organization in there.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, you had direct responsibility. You were
the one that suggested the locals. There was a cry that went up that
they were fraudulently chartered. What investigation or study did
you make? Did you talk to Johnny Dio about them? Did you talk
to John McNamara ? Did you make any investigation at all?
Mr. Hoffa. I made no investigation of the situation concerning
these chartei's that I can recall,
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, that is why it is so amazing to hear you
come vip here and tell this committee that now you are going to look
into these people. Now you have suddenly seen the light. That
there is a prospect of you being made president of the International
Brotherhood of Teamsters and you are going to start to make an in-
vestigation of all of these people.
You knew this was going on for all of this period of time. Why
didn't you make an investigation before ? Why did you have to wait
until you came before this committe to say it ?
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Kennedy, I didn't make the statement just in front
of this committee.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, why have you not made an investigation ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5235
Mr. HoFFA. Because I am not general president. Unless I have an
assignment in that area, I remain in the middle ^Yestern area in union
activities.
Mr. Kennedy. How were you assigned to that area ? You were
not assigned to that area as far as John McNamara was concerned.
You and John McNamara, a personal friend in that area, got together
on the chartering of these locals. You were not assigned there at
that time.
Mr. HoFFA. I think there is again, a misconstruction of what I said,
I said that President Beck asked me to see whether or not we could
get those local unions into the teamsters. I contacted McNamara and
asked him to see what he could do,
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you contact Mr. Tom Hickey ? If the
reason that you were trying to get these locals into the union was not
a power play on your part, as the situation existed in 1953 in the taxi-
cabs, why did you not go through the regular channels ? Why did
you not go to the joint council or the international organizer, Tom
Hickey ?
(At this point. Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA, I do not believe that either the joint council or Hickey
would have been able to com])lete bringing those locals in, because
they had failed up to date. They had the authority to do it. They
had the authority to organize the entire county or entire town.
That is tlieir res]:)onsibility.
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you go to them and find out about these
people? Why did you wait until August of 1957 to suddenly have
the light dawn upon you ?
Mr. HoFFA. I am not waiting in 1957. They could have filed
charges anytime they wanted to file them. I am at every executive
board with Hickey and I never heard Hickey raise a question in re-
gard to filing charges against these individuals.
Mr. Kennedy. They could not even get the charters. They re-
quested the charters. You were the one that suggested these people
come into the teamsters. You certainly had the responsibility for it.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't accept the responsibility at all. I was on an
assignment.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you trying to get Mickey Finn of the UAW-
CIO into the teamsters at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe I talked to him about it. We were not success-
ful.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mickey Finn get a teamsters charter ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, to my recollection he never did get a charter, and
I don't think he has one now. At least, I don't recall it.
Mr. Kennedy. What conversations did you have with Mickey Finn
about getting him a charter ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I tried to convince him to come into our organiza-
tion because in my opinion he has our jurisdiction, and because of
his contractual relationship he had problems of his own. I don't
from recollection, recall that he ever got a charter.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't you talk to Mr. Sam Goldstein about that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Who is he ? Is he a lawyer ?
Mr. Kennedy. Xo. He is associated with Tony "Ducks" Corallo.
Did you talk with him a number of different times ?
5236 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE Lu\BOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. To the best that I can recall. I don't ^ver remember
meeting Goldstein unless it was at an eastern conference meeting or
at a labor gathering. But to have a conversation, I don't recall having
one with him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever intervene, or did you ever request at
at the international, that they issue a charter to Mickey Finn ?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, no.
Mr. Kennedy. You cannot remember that, either ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, because I don't — I don't believe he ever got one.
To my recollection, I don't think I ever requested it.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, he did get one.
Mr. HoFFA. He did? What number?
Mr. Kennedy. Pie did receive a charter, 1259.
Mr. HoFFA. From the international direct ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, where all charters come from.
Mr. HoFFA. Who signed the application ? Did you say 1259 ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Mr.HoFFA. 1259?
Mr. Kennedy. 1259.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think we have a local 1259, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't anymore. He received a charter, however.
Mr. HoFFA. No, I mean I don't think we go that high in numbers.
There seems to be something wrong with that.
Mr. Kennedy. I will tell you the explanation. His local in the
UAW-CIO was 259, and he received from the teamsters 1259. My
point is on this, Mr. Hoffa, that you were intervening in New York,
first on this UAW-AFL, bringing those people into the teamsters
union just prior to the election, that you also intervened and tried to
get strength through Mickey Finn and his group, bringing their 4,000
members into the teamsters union.
At the same period of time, weren't you having conferences with
the ILA, which had been kicked out of the AFL for being gangster-
ridden? Weren't vou liaving conferences with them toward loaning
them $490,000?
]Mr. Hoffa. Yes, we were.
Mr, Kennedy. And weren't you participating in those conferences ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, I was.
Mr. Kennedy. Then all of this period of time, Mr. Hoffa, you take
the action toward getting tliis group, these people, into the teamsters
union, and then when something arises about it, some question arises,
you say, "That is not me, that is John McNamara. It is his respon-
sibility. It is not me. Committee Members, it is Mr. John McNamara.
It is Mr. Dave Beck."
Mr. Hoffa. Well, now, I don't believe that I said that. I said that
I contacted McNamara, and I said that it was after President Beck
had requested me to see whether or not I could get those local unions
into our teamster organization.
Mr. Kennedy. All right. Then they got their charters through
fraud. There were people's names used that were fraudulent. It was
not the UAW-AFL at all in local 651. It was just a tavern employee
and these people came in and received charters.
^Vhen this information became public, you made no investigation or
study of it at all, is that correct ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5237
Mr. HoFFA. It is my understanding that the court enjoined the in-
ternational union from interfering in the affairs of the joint council in
Xew York for almost a period of a year.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't think that the court order said that they could
liot lift these charters. The court order said that they should not inter-
vene as far as ordering the joint council to seat these people.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't know. They spoke with the injunction,
so I can't dispute that with you one way or the other.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know anything about Mickey Finn's back-
ground ?
Mr. HoFFA. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not ? You know nothing about him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't recall ever discussing with Mickey Finn
liis background. I can't recall that.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not know he had been a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, if I did, we would have had a very short discus-
sion. So I cannot recall ever that subject coming to my mind. If
that is so, he will have to remain where he is at now, in the UAW.
Mr. Kennedy. You are not going to take him in either ?
Mr. HoFFA. There will be no Communists in our organization.
Mr. Kennedy. Or ex-Communists? I am not saying he is an ex-
Communist.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, an ex-Communist, so far as I am concerned — all
right, we won't.
Mr. Kennedy. You were talking to Senator Ives that you are going
to investigate in your area. What are you going to do about the
group that you have working with you out there and that you are
associated with?
Mr. HoFFA. What group ?
Mr. Kennedy. For instance, Barney Baker, who was thrown off the
docks.
Mr. HoFFA. Wait a minute. He is not a Communist.
(At this point. Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. I am not talking about communists. I am talking
about racketeers.
Mr. HoFFA. He will get the same treatment as the rest of them.
Mr. Kennedy. You will have an investigation of Barney Baker?
What about Kavner? There are a number of different places that
Barney Baker and Kavner have traveled that there has been violence.
Are you going to investigate all of those ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't believe that Kavner has been convicted. I have
tried to find out since this hearing started and I can't find anything
about him being convicted of anything.
Mr. Kennedy. We are not talking about him being convicted. We
are talking about all of the violence that has occurred in areas where he
]ias been.
Mr. HoFFA. I certainly would not lay to Dick Kavner's door any
violence or any particular incident without somebody from a legal
investigative staff stating that he was responsible.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that he was in areas where there was a
great deal of violence, and Mr. Barney Baker the same thing, through-
out the Midwest ?
Mr. HoFFA. There can be violence in many areas.
5238 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did you look into it and investigate to find out if he
was responsible for it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know — certainly the officials of the city must
have looked into it more closely than I could have looked into it.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me read you the records. I will not name the
individuals, but let me read the records of some of the business agents
you have working for you.
Mr. HoFFA. You are talking about the Midwest?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. December 1928, the Detroit area, convicted of armed
robbery, sent to Jackson State Prison. I will give you the names
afterwards. Sent to Jackson State Prison, Jackson, Mich.
This is other than the ones I have given you already. Twenty to
40 years. Paroled on September 27, 1939. Arrested for robbery in
1944, assault and battery in 1949.
Mr. HoFFA. How many of those
Mr. Kennedy. What?
Mr. HoFFA. How many of those were convictions. There was one
conviction.
Mr. Kennedy. Twenty to 40 years and paroled and he has been
arrested for robbery in 1944, and assault and battery in 1949.
Number two: A gentleman that has been an organizer for one of
your locals convicted of armed robbery in Detroit, Mich., in 1942,
sentenced to Jackson State Prison, 3 to 20 years, paroled in February
1945.
Another one : Robbery
Senator Mundt. We do not have the name, but this is a pretty
specific case. Is this the kind of people that you propose to employ
as business agents as international president?
Mr. Kennedy. They are employed at the present time.
Senator Mttndt. You have them now? You will have more re-
sponsibility if you are elected. Is this the kind of people we are
talking about that you will surround yourself with, that we will have
prowling around the Capital if they come in and spend the night at
the labor tabernacle?
We will have to have some more Capital policemen if this is the
kind of people.
Mr. HoFFA. Each individual case must be checked into, and if a
man has rehabilitated himself and it was a long period of time back,
and has did nothing in the labor movement, I would want to check
whether or not he should be in or not without making a flat statement
he should not be in.
Senator Mundt. All right. I am not asking you that, but if you
have a fellow that has been arrested, has been in the penitentiary for
20 years, and when he comes out, you try to rehabilitate him and
give him a job, and he goes back in the clink again, how many chances
are you going to give him ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I think you have to take the case, and I would
very definitely stand on the record and the decisions I made, based
upon the facts.
(Members of the select committee present at this point are Senators
McClellan, Ives, Ervin, Kennedy, and Mundt.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5239
Mr. Kennedy. We have another man, also a business agent • 1932
armed robbery, 5 to 15 years. This is again, Mr. Hoffa, not an isolated
mcident. I think you can hire somebody who got in difficulty with the
law and then bring them in, but it is the same thing as New York
You say you will suddenly turn your back on the people in New York!
You have had the same situation in every area that you have ever gone
into.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't turn my back on anybody.
Mr. Kennedy. Another case : In 1932, armed robbery, 5 to 15 years
m Detroit House of Correction, paroled in 1935. 1939, armed rob-
bery, 714 to 15 years, Jackson State Prison, parole in 1951. Armed
robbery, Detroit, 7 to 12 years.
The Chairman. Those people are in his employ now ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Mr, HoFFA. You say they are in mine ?
The Chairman. Under your control, yes, because you could fire them
m a minute if you wanted to.
Mr. Hoffa. It is just possible, Senator McClellan, that something is
being unveiled here that I don't know about.
Mr. Kennedy. Here is another one: 1947, another business agent, 5
years for sodomy.
The Chairman. I hope we are giving you a lot of information.
Mr. HoFFA. It will be in the record" and I will stand on what I do
with it.
9m'^' ^^^^^^^^- ^^^ ^^ ^^^® ^^^s I ^^^^^6 i^^st read is business agent for
Here is another one arrested. A couple of them are in 299, your
own local. Six arrests for bookmaking, and one arrest for book-
making.
Mr. HoFFA. I think there is one in my organization and the man has
been m my organization and I think he has been there since 1938 He
hasn t been convicted ; isn't that correct ? Isn't there one ? His name
is McMasters.
Mr. Kennedy. He was arrested for felonious assault in 1941, so he
has been m some difficulty.
Mr. HoFFA. Was he convicted ?
Mr. Kennedy. No.
Mr. Hoffa. That could be charged very easily.
TT^?' I^^^^'i'-i^^'- I just say it is an accumulation of these things, Mr.
Hofla. *= '
Mr HoFFA. I will accept the responsibility for my own organiza-
tion, local 299, and I know McMasters' record. I know when he came
ott o± a truck and when he came to work for me with a long accumu-
lated seniority.
Mr. Kennedy Let me give you another one: In 1938, felonious as-
sault, 1 year probation. 1940, violation of probation. 1942 carryino-
concealed weajDons, 1 to 4 years Jackson State Prison. He was ar-
rested m 1948 for armed robbery.
Mr. HoFFA. Are you saying lie is in my employee ?
Mr. Kennedy. He is very very close to you.
Mr.HoFFA. Give me the name. He is not in 299.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know him ?
5240 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall it, and when you give it to me-
Mr. Kennedy. He is in local 641 in Pontiac. Do you know how he
got his job up there ?
In 1938, felonious assault. 1940, violation of probation. 1942,
carrying concealed weapons. In 1948
Mr. IToFFA. I will check on him.
Mr. Kennedy. Another one: 1954, assault and battery, 4 months'
probation, being an employee of a Ford dealer in Detroit, Mich, dur-
ing a strike, 9 arrests.
Another one: Nine arrests for investigation of bookmaking. We
have some otliers here.
These are all just in Detroit, and this was on the basis of not a very
thorough investigation. You have had these people in New York,
and you had this group in Detroit, and you associate with Angelo
Meli, and you associate with Jimmy James, and Connell3^ Connelly
was mixed up with a murder down in Florida.
Mr. HoFFA. No, he wasn't.
Mr. Kennedy. He was. Or attempted murder, and he was present,
according to the statement of the man, and he was present when he
received the payoff to throw rocks through laundry windows, and the
man was sup])osed to go out and murder a laundry owner. He got
five bullets in him. Then he came up and he went to work for you.
Mr. HoFFA. Just a moment. Let us correct the record. Where did
James go to work for me ?
Mr. Kennedy. Connelly, I am talking about. *
INIr. HoFFA. He did not go to work for me.
Mr. Kennedy. Let us find out what the record is.
He got into that difficulty in Florida, and he came to work for the
teamsters in Minneapolis ; is that correct ?
Mr. IIoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. He got in further difficulty in Minneapolis, and he
took money from an employer.
Mr. HoFFA. He didn't come to work for me.
Mr. Kennedy. Wait a minute, and let us finish. He went to work
in Minneapolis for the teamsters and he got money from an employer,
and he was ousted from the union and you arranged for him to go
back to work there after he had been convicted.
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, I listened to Einar Mohn's explanation of that.
Mr. Kennedy. You blame that on Einar Mohn ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't say it was. I say I was on the committee and I
accept the responsibility, Mr. Kennedy, and I am not shirking my
responsibility.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't see how you can say you are going to turn
your back on these people and you are going to start investigating
them. Your rise to power was based on these people.
The Chairman. He just said that he would not turn his back on
anyone.
Mr. HoFFA. I said I would not turn my back on people, but I would
make investigations just for the sake of making a statement, so that
I will make an investigation as I stated, and what I told Senator Ives,
will happen to determine whether I do it or not.
I think when I say something that I keep my word.
Mr. Kennedy. I just don't understand how you can do it. If some-
body has a rise to power that is based on this kind of a connection
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5241
with gangsters and hoodlums in every area, I don't see how then you
can say, "I am gomg to make an investigation of them because sud-
denly now I have gotten to the position I wanted all of this period of
time and I am gom^ to be international president."
1?^^^* HoFFA. That IS not correct. I have to make a statement here
which I hesitate to make, but I am going to make it with the Chair's
permission.
Tlie Chairman. The Chair will listen.
Mr. HoFFA. I happen to believe, and maybe it may be a philosophv
a lot ol people don't agree with, that everybody is entitled to rehabili^
rate himself and work. I also recognize that the labor movement
being as it is, having strikes and strikebreakers, and whatever it has
to cope with, may find a perfectly honest man become involved and be
picked up by the police on an investigative matter or a charge. Until
he can get into court, he can become a very embarrassed individual.
Then when he is found innocent, you find that he has a record. You
may find also, and I will concede the question, that a man doino- work
driving a truck, like INIcMasters, and I don't want to embarra'ss him
because I know this is going over the air, and I have talked with
him — a man like McMasters drove a truck for vears and years before
Jie came to work for the teamsters, who to my knowledge hasn't done
anything of a convictionable nature since he came to work for the
teamsters, even though he has been involved in strikes and some ques-
tions, has to be treated completelv different than tlie character that
goes out here and does from what I can listen to out of this committee.
Ihose characters I am goinc: to deal with, if it means I have got to
liave an argument with some p^eople that I know and maybe get pretty
serious. It will have to get serious and I will have the argument and
we will straighten it out.
That is all I can say.
The CiiAiRMAx. Mr. Hoffa, it is perfectlv apparent from the rec^
ord here that m the past you haven't been very much concerned about
this character of people other than to use tiiem, and work with them,
and cooperate with them, and issue cliarters to them, and get them in
the union. The fact that you might hire somebody to drive a truck
that had been guilty of something, that is a different thing. But
Miien you put them m a position of power and a place where they can
use the union, and use their position in the union to exploit the public,
to exploit others, and to carry on these things, it certainly is not doing
anything to the credit of organized labor.
Proceed, ^Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, at this period of time in New York, and
once again examining this as part of a pattern, wasn't your candidate
Air. John O'Rourke ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You Were interested in his election ?
JNlr. Hoffa. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And the record is clear that these locals, the of-
hcials of the locals, were attempting to vote in the election?
Mr. Hoffa. They filed tlieir applications, I understand, in accord-
ance with the constitution, and they were rejected by the joint coun-
cil, because of the agreement that had been reached between President
±5eck and Martin Lacey. They sent wires in requesting information
concerning the charters and that is what I know about it
5242 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Weren't you advising them during this period of
time as to how tliey should handle the matter ?
Mr. HoFFA. Advising who ?
Mr. Kennedy. Specifically, weren't you talking to John McNamara
and advising him, for instance, that a letter of appeal should be
sent into the international ?
Mr. IIoFFA. John McNamara called me and told me that they had
refused to scat them. I told him what the appeal procedure was in
the constitution, and he would have to comply with the constitution.
I believe that is what I said, to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. You could see at that time, that the intention was,
and you knew and you were aware that these locals were going to be
used in order to influence tlie election in New York, and you were
taking part in that yourself for the benefit of John O'Kourke.
Mr. ILoFFA. It wasn't necessary to have those locals for O'Rourke
to win, and the vote proved that he could win.
Mr. Kennedy. If that was true, why did Mr. John McNamara make
such an efl'ort to get them seated so that they could vote in the election?
All of the letters and all of the correspondence from John McNamara
indicates that clearly.
Mr. IIoFFA. I think that he was responsible for getting the charters
and he would be responsible to assist in getting them seated.
Mr. Kennedy. So that tliey could vote in the election?
^Ir, IIoFFA. If they were seated they could vote, I will concede that,
but they were never seated.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You Were advsing them during that period of time.
Mr. HoFFA. On the appeal procedure.
Mr. Kennedy. So that they could vote, and the letters that they
wrote after discussing the matter with you were letters so that they
could api)eal to the international so that they could be seated and vote
in the election for your candidate, John O'Rourke.
Mr. HoFFA. "Well, I don't recall the conversations but it is possible.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, when you say that these votes were not needed,
when the first election was held the vote was 192 to 181, and there were
II votes in favor of ^Martin Lacey. So these votes that were all for
John O'Rourke would have influenced the election or switched the
election.
Mr. IIoFFA. No, sir; that isn't correct.
Senator Kennedy. Isn't it correct that Mr. O'Rourke won by 5
ballots, and 16 ballots were thrown out and that is how Mr. Lacey
won?
Mr. HoFFA. I think it is the reverse, sir. I think that Lacey won
the election, and there was, I believe, 16 challenged ballots. I believe
after those ballots were finally voted, ORourke won by six. That
is the record, sir.
Senator Kennedy. How was it that Lacey was able to become head
of the council that year ?
Mr. HoFFA. He went into court and obtained an injunction.
Senator Kennedy. Then these ballots were thrown out, and that
gave the election to Lacey.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think so. I think what happened, sir, was that I
they took the position that the impounded ballots couldn't be counted
and Lacey made certain other allegations, and the court held it on an
even keel until they had a court case.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5243
That carried on to the end of the election. I believe that is the
best of my recollection.
Senator Kennedy. The point is that the election was extremely
close, and these 7 locals having 7 votes each, 49 votes, could have
been very decisive in such an election particularly when it was 10
or 11 one way or the other.
Now I would like to ask the counsel what tlie record sIioavs on this
question we are discussing.
The Chairman. Let the Chair make this observation, with wliicli no
one will disagree: Had the votes been counted of these fraudulent
charters, had they been counted, O'Rourke would have been elected by
some 40 votes or 35 to 40 votes. There isn't any question about that.
Mr. HoFFA. But OTvourke was elected. O'Rourke was elected with-
out those votes, when the challenged ballots were counted.
Mr. Kennedy. INIr. lioffa, the election results were 192 for Mr. Lacey,
and 181 for John O'Rourke. There were 16 votes that were challenged,
and there were the votes from these phony locals that were challenged.
Now, either one of those, if they had been counted, would have given
the election to John O'Rourke.
Mr. HoFFA. I believe that the IG votes were counted; were they
not?
Mr. Kennedy. They weren't counted any more than the 42 votes were
counted.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think that your are right.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was president of the joint council in 1956?
Mr. HoFFA. O'Rourke won the election.
' Mr. Kennedy. No.
Mr. HoFFA. From information I have, I think I am correct, and I
could be wrong, but the court enjoined him from taking the position.
Tliat is what happened, and not that he didn't win the vote by the
prior chartered local unions.
Mr. Kennedy. But John O'Rourke won the election either by count-
ing the i^hony locals' votes, or by counting the 16 votes. But the court
held that neither the 16 votes or the 42 votes would be counted, and
ALartin Lacey won.
Mr. HoFFA. I agree with what you say now.
The Chairman. There is no doubt about it. There is no doubt
al)out what would have happened had these phony votes been counted.
Senator Mundt. Can you clear this up for me? I am a little bit
puzzled as to why a labor leader and a vice president for the Central
States should be participating in the decisions made by the laboring-
people of New York as to who they want to have president of the joint
council. Why did you want Mr. O'Rourke to be president ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I believed that it was necessary for a change
if we could convince sufficient people to vote in the New York election,
so that we could give proper coordinated effort between the South and
the East to organize the nonunion operation in the south.
Senator Mundt. That Avas your reason for favoring O'Rourke.
Now, were you in that election at the direction of Einar Mohn or Dave
Beck or did you just think this one up yourself ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir; I had a perfect right as a member of the team-
sters union to go into that area and campaign for another teamster.
That is without Dave Beck or Einar Mohn.
89330— 57— pt. 13. 21
5244 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. Is that a general practice among teamster unions?
Do they send people from the New York area to campaign in Detroit
as to who they select for the joint council, and you send people down
to St. Louis?
Mr. HoFFA. If we believed it affects our area, we definitely would do-
it ; yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Is this a general practice or was this an exception ?
Mr. HoFFA. We did it in Philadelphia- We did it in New York. I
can't recall any other area where we had any such difficulty of getting
cooperation.
Senator Mundt. Did you ever have anybody come into your baili-
wick from the outside and try to run one of your joint councils?
Mr. HoFFA. We haven't had any particular competition.
Senator Mundt. Have they ever come in and tried to create com-
petition ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir. We cooperate with all unions and, therefore^
they will have no reason.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. IIofTa, as I understand it, you have stated that
you were in contact with Mr. Dio during this period of time?
Mr. HoFFA. As I said, to my recollection, I think that I talked to
him. You are talking about what time ?
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of the so-called phony locals,
and when there was so much discussion about them.
Mr. HoFFA. I could have been, but I don't recall the conversation.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember you stayed at the Hampshire
House at the end of November 1955 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I could have, and I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember meeting with Mr. Dio at that time ?
ISIr. HoFFA. I could have and I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't recall that either ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
IVIr. Kennedy. Well, the record shows you were talking to him a
number of different times on the telephone. You called him on No-
vember 26, and you spoke to him for 2 minutes, and November 27
spoke to him for 8 minutes, and November 27 you spoke to him for 5
minutes, and December 7 you spoke to him for 5 minutes.
Mr. HoFFA. It is possible. As I say, to my recollection I can't recall
the phone calls, but if you have them it is possible.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to point out that these calls are of some
significance, Mr. Chairman, since they are just prior to the letters go-
ing from the paper locals, the phony locals to the Joint Council 16,
listing officers which were requested to be seated by the joint council-
For instance, the local 269 letter is dated November 29; 284 is dated
November 29 and local 651 is November 29 ; and 295 dated November
30; and 258 is dated December 1 and 362 dated December 1, 1955.
INIr. HoFFA. It is possible I made them, and I can't recall them.
Senator Kennedy. In response to Senator Mundt's question, Mr.
Hoffa, you made the statement that you thought it was proper for
you to campaign for Mr. O'Kourke. I think what the committee is
concerned with is the way you campaigned. In order to influence the
council' it seems to me that you used your power as an important officer
in the international union to get 7 locals give a charter which would
give them 7 votes each, a total of 49, in spite of the fact that they did
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5245
not have members. In spite of the testimony of Mr. Lacey down here
that he attempted to find out the reason for the charters being issued
Mr. Mohn testified that he was unable to give any explanation as to
why he did not answer Mr. Lacey's interrogation, even thouo-h Mr
Lacey was then in a position of authority in New York. ^
So the question really comes down to the means by which you carried
out the campaign for Mr. O'Rourke.
Tir^^i ^'^^1 '^t^^"^Pted to do was use your power to get 49 votes for
Mr. O Kourke m an extremely tight election, and that is what I think
the committee has a right to question you on. It is not whether vou
used influence as a friend of Mr. O'Rourke, but whether you used your
power as a leading teamster official to interfere in a completely im-
proper way, and by the use of fraudulent charters to influence the
election and therefore increase your control.
Mr. HoFFA. I understand what you are saying.
Senator Kennedy. Would you tell me how that is inaccurate, that
statement ? '
Mr. HoFFA. I did not know, and I don't recollect, anybody ever
telling me that there were fraudulent charters. But my understand-
ing was, tlie best I can recall from McNamara, they were going to
bring m those members from the UAW into the teamsters. I be-
lieve that would have happened if there wouldn't have been the court
case that developed out of the election.
But because of the court case, and the uncertainty of being seated
m the council, that is what I believe kept us from doing what was
originally intended.
Senator Kennedy. We had all of this evidence that Mr. Lacey un-
der the teamster constitution was entitled to know of this situation,
and he was denied tlie information. These charters were rushed
through m order to permit these people, all with criminal records, or
nearly all ot them, to vote in a very tight election. It seems to me
that you did much more than campaign. You used vour power and
the influence you had with the teamsters headquarters here in Wash-
ington to throw votes, which should not have been voted, to vour
friend Mr. O Rourke. "^
I think that is completely improper, just as I feel it is improi^er for
you to spend $5,000 of your local's money to influence a contested
ele_ction m Philadelphia. I think that is a bad practice.
Mr. HoFFA. ]\Ir. Kennedy, this isn't the first time in New York,
Senator Kennedy, there have been charters issued on the same dav in
a number of 7 or num})ers of 2. I have here July 8, 1053. At that
time there were 7 charters issued on the same basis.'
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Hofta, may I sav that as I remember it the
next year there were only 19 charters issued for teamster locals all
over the world, yet 7 were issued under these conditions without the
knowledge of Mr. Lacey or Mr. Hickev in New York. I do not think
there was ^j^y doubt that they were issued in order to affect the elec-
tioii ot Mr. O Rourke, I think that is an open and shut case as developed
betore this committee, and that that was in your interest.
Mr. HoFFA. They could have affected the election, and I don't dis-
pute the fact.
Senator Kennedy. They would have, not "could have."
5246 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. IIoFFA. Well, could have or would have, whichever way you
want to say it, if they had been voted. But since they didn't vote
there was no contest.
Senator KIennedy. That is not your fault that they did not vote.
It is not that you did not intend them to vote. It is the court that
stopped the voting.
Mr. HoFFA. No, they didn't stop them from voting.
Senator Kennedy. They stopped the counting.
Mr. HoFFA. No, the court didn't stop
Senator Kennedy. They stopped the votes from being counted.
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, that is not correct.
Senator Kennedy. You tell it, then.
Mr. HoFFA. The local unions that were chartered, when it was
brouglit to Dave Beck's attention, and this is the one thing that has
not been brought out in this committee, and I want to bring it out
so you will know what hapj^ened, when those local unions were
finally chartered, and after a complaint had been lodged by Martin
Lacey, I was called to Washington to President Beck's office. At
that time, he told me that lie liad been informed that the agreement he
had made with Martin Lacey liadn't been carried out, and he didn't
want to be accused of breaking his word, and he requested me to con-
tact John O'Rourke who was the opponent to Lacey, he intending to
run for president again didn't want to become involved in a political
fight, and tell O'Rourke that those votes would be placed in escrow
and not counted unless there was a necessity to determine a majority
vote in the council.
I contacted O'Kourke and told him exactly that.
Then there was a man assigned to cover the New York election.
Senator Kennedy. But the point is, unless the votes would influence
the election, they would not be counted.
Mr. HoFFA. That is correct. That is the statement.
Senator Kennedy. They would have, and the point is it does not
matter whether you count a vote unless it influences an election.
5lr. HoFFA. But it wasn't necessary. The election was won by the
old original cliartered unions whicli gave everybody a fair opportunity
to have an election without considering the votes that were involved
in these 49 votes that were contested.
Senator Ivennedy, I agree that your idea and your plan was not
successful, Mr. Hofi^a, your plan to use these seven votes to influence the
election of Mr. O'Rourke. I agree that because of a variety of condi-
tions it was not a successful operation. What I am talking about is
your intention that it would be successful.
Mr. HoFFA. It wasn't necessarily my intention, and I don't recall dis-
cussing the question of this being of paramount importance to win the
election, because O'Rourke told me he could win the election of those
people who were there a year before we even considered these charters.
I tried to convince O'Rourke to run the year before, and, because of his
health, he couldn't run.
So I can't recall ever talking to Mr. O'Rourke prior to the issuance
of these charters, of not being able to win an election.
Senator Kennedy. Why were they issued without the knowledge
of Lacey and Hickey, then ?
Mr. HoFFA. I beg your pardon ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5247
Senator Kennedy. Why were they issued without the knowledge of
Lacey and Hickey ?
Mr. HoFFA. I was told it was a mistake, an oversight that the agree-
ment hadn't been carried out.
Senator Kennedy. I think it is all part of this pattern in order to
displace Mr. Lacey. That was the reason he was not informed about it.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I was certainly anxious to replace Mr. Lacey, but
1 must state to my recollection I never discussed the question with
President Beck on that basis.
The Chairman. Is there anything further before we recess ?
Mr. Kennedy. No.
The Chairman. The committee stands in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 37 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at
2 p. m., the same day. )
(Members present at the taking of the recess : Senators McClellan,
Kennedy, Ervin, Goldwater and Mundt.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(Members present at the start of the afternoon session: Senators
McClellan, Ives, Kennedy, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. HOFFA, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEOEGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. I just have a couple of short things I want to clear up
with you, Mr. Hoffa.
First, do you know Mr. Joseph Glimco ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he been a trustee in the central conference of
teamsters ?
Mr. Hoffa. No. He is not a trustee of the central conference of
teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he ever ? Has he ever been a trustee ?
Mr. Hoffa. Just let me think a minute. Let's see who our board is,
first.
Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me ?
Mr. Hoffa. Let me find out who the board is first.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. No. I would say he is not a trustee of the central
conference, and I can't recall him ever having been, because our struc-
ture is that the vice presidents in the area and three other people are
the officers, and I don't believe it has ever changed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if he has ever been a trustee of that
local 777 in Chicago ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, that is different. He could very well be. I could
tell you in a minute by looking in the book, if you want.
Mr. Kennedy. Our information was that he was at one time.
Mr. Hoffa. I wouldn't say that he was or wasn't. That is in Chi-
cago, and we have two vice presidents there.
Mr. Kennedy. You know him quite well, do you not ?
Mr. Hoffa. Yes, I know him quite well.
5248 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kexxedy. Did you know he was an associate of Tony Accardi?
Mr. IIOFFA. Do I know he is ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes
Mr. HoFFA. Of my own knowled^je ; no.
Mr. Kennedy. Or Frank Xitti ^
Mr. HoFFA. Of my own knowledue, T do not know.
Mr. Kennedy. "I'on have heard that ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have read it in the newspaper.
Mr. Kennedy. And that lie has been indicted twice on charges of
nuirder ?
Mr.HoFFA. AVhatisthat?
Mr. Kennedy. Tliat he has been indicted twice, Glimco has been
indicted twice '.
Ml". I loFFA. For murder, do you say ?
]\[r. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. IIoFFA. 1 di(hrt see that in tiie paper.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know William Presser ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
]Mr. Kennedy. And lie is also a close associate of yours ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And he is chairman of the Ohio Conference of
Teamsters?
Ml. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
( At this point. Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. You were aware that lie took the fifth amendment
before a congressional committee in regards to his finances ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir. I believe he did. I read it in the paper.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Dave Triscaro? Do you know him,
Triscaro?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Ivennedy. Did you take part in the testimonial banquet for
him?
^Ir. IIoFFA. Yes, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, I asked you this morning a couple of questions
about your relationshij> with Johnny Dio, and whether you had ever
sent anybody to assist him and whether he had ever sent anybody to
aid or assist or help you.
I was wondering whether you had a chance to reflect your recol-
lection over the noon hour and whether you could give any better
answers to that now ? Do you want to discuss that with your attorney ?
Mr. HoFFA. I have run it through my mind during the lunch hour
and to the best of my recollection, I cannot recall what you are talking
about.
(At this ponit, Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Mr. HoFFA. If you have some way of assisting me, I would appre-
ciate it. I can't recall it.
Mr. Kennedy. You cannot remember anything about that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, to the best of my recollection, I can't remember
what you are talking about.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ever send any individual or any groups or
a number of individuals out to Detroit to perform a job for you?
Mr. HoFFA. You asked that this morning and I said that to my
recollection, I cannot remember him doing it.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5249
Mr. Kenxedy. Well, would it refresh your recollection at all if I
told you that you had paid those individuals, or paid one of the indi-
viduals for the work he did ? That was back in 195o,
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot recall nor recollect what you are talking about.
Mr. Kennedy. You cannot remember him sending anybody out to
tiid or assist you during 1953 ?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, I cannot recall who you
are talking about.
Mr. Kennedy, You were in contact with him in 1953? Do you
i-emember that ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, yes. I so stated that here.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, this is a rather important matter and
I am sure that ^Ir. ITofi'a remembers it. There can't be any question
that he would remember it, if it was an important matter in his life.
Would it lielj) any if we gave you just a minute to tliink about it and
answer the question?
The Chairman. What is the question again ?
Mr. Kennedy. Whether he knows whether Mr. Dio arranged to
liave an individual or a number of individuals come and assist Mr.
IIofFa in a project out in Detroit.
You do not remember that at all, Mr. Hoffa ?
(The M'itness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Maybe they can help me out. Just a moment.
Mr. Kennedy. ^laybe they can.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Were they a help ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Pardon me. INIay I speak to the General Counsel
oif the record here on this matter, Mr. Chairman ? I would like to
The Chairman. I beg your ]:)ardon ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I consult with Mr. Keimedy off the record to
find out what this matter concerns? If it was what I tliink it is, I
think it is a matter, from his questions — I am thinking from a stand-
])oint of time — it might be a matter that was excluded, I believe, by
the ruling of the Chair, and that was not going to be gone into.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, what does that mean ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Well, I think earlier, Mr. Kennedy, we had a
matter affecting a pending indictment in New York State.
Mr. Kennedy. I am talking about Mr. Dio.
Mr. Fitzgerald. No, but you are talking about and area in 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. But are you saying Mr. Dio was involved in the wire
tap])ingofMr.Hoffa?
Mr. Fitzgerald. No, I did not. I did not say anything about that.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you were implying that at least.
Mr. Fitzgerald. No ; I ain not ; but you are in the same identical
area that is covered by an indictment.
Mr. Kennedy. This is amazing to me.
Mr. Fitzgerald. It is not amazing to me.
Mr. Kennedy. Because it is the same period of time ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Because it is the same period of time and involv-
ing apparently
Mr. Kennedy. What period of time are you talking about?
Mr. Fitzgerald. You mentioned 1953 ; did you not ?
Mr. Kennedy. You don't want me to discuss any period of time
involving 1953 ?
5250 IMPROPER ACnUVITIES IN THE LABOR FIEIiD
Mr. Fitzgerald, I think if it does concern the indictment, then
maybe my fears as counsel, and not Mr. Holt'a's fears, my fears as
counsel are perhaps
Mr. Kennedy. As I understand it, so we get it clear, Mr. Hoffa is
under indictment not Avith Mr, Dio.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it your statement that Mr. Dio is involved with
Mr. Hoffa in this wire tapping ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is not my statement at all.
Mr. KJENNEDY. It is tlie implication of your statement.
Mr. Fitzgerald, It is not the implication of my statement.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Then he can go ahead.
Mr. Fitzgerald, You can go ahead if you wish.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell us about it, then.
Mr. Hofea. Should I tell you ?
Mr. I^nnedy. Yes.
Mr. Hoffa. I made the statement this morning that I, to the best
of my recollection, could not recall what you are talking about. I
have run it through my mind this afternoon and, unless you can assist
me, I cannot recall.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Mr. Fitzgerald can assist you,
Mr. Hoffa, I disagree with Mr, Fitzgerald. He cannot assist me
in something that he don't know of, I am sure, and that I am sure
I cannot recollect. He is talking about it from a lawyer's standpoint,
I am here trying to tell you from the best of my recollection what I
remember.
Mr. Kennedy. How can lie make a request of the committee not to
go into something that you don't recollect what it is?
Mr. Hoffa. ]Mr. Kennedy — Senator McClellan, unless he can re-
f resli my memory, I cannot recollect what he is talking about, to the
best of my
The Chairman. What is the question? Let's see if we can
straighten it out. What is the question ?
]Mr. Kennedy. Just if Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Dio arranged for anyone
to go out to Detroit to assist or help Mr. Hoffa in any project in 1953.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. All right. The question is very direct. Do you
know or do you recall, or will you state whether Mr, Dio sent anyone
out to Detroit in 1953 or arranged for someone to go out there to
assist you in a project ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Hoffa. Senator, to the best of my recollection, I cannot remem-
ber it happening.
The Chairman. You cannot remember anyone making any arrange-
ments with Mr. Dio ?
Mr. Hoffa. As I say,. Senator, during the lunch period I tried to
run it through my mind and to the best of my recollection, I cannot
recall the answer.
(At this point Senator Kennedy withdrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember if Mr. Dio himself came out to
visit vou in 1953 ?
IMPROPER ACnVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5251
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Dio was in Detroit. I cannot recollect exactly
when.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he bring anything out to you at that time?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, to the best of my recollection, I can't remember
him doing it, if he did.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember anything about that ?
Mr. HoFFA. If he brought something out, to the best of my recol-
lection I cannot remember.
Mr. Kennedy. To the best of your recollection, you do not remember
it?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't assist us or help us at all in this matter ?
Mr. HoFFA. I am doing the best that I can recall.
The Chairman. Let me ask you : Did he bring you any office equip-
ment ?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't remember any office equipment he ever brought
me, Senator.
The Chairman. Did he bring you any other kind of equipment that
you can recall ?
Mr. HoFFA. I just cannot recall, to the best of my recollection I can-
not recall, Senator, him bringing anything of any consequence to the
office.
The Chairman. Don't you think if he had brought you something a
little bit unusual you would have recalled it; something out of the
ordinary ?
Mr. HoFFA. If I would know what it was, it might refresh my
memory.
Mr. Kennedy. This is a well-known gangster in New York coming
out to visit you, convicted of extortion, who brought all of these hood-
lums in the labor-union movement in 1952 and 1953, and you cannot
remember anything about it.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed. The witness says he doesn't
remember.
Mr. Kennedy. I will try one refresher for you.
Mr. Hoffa. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. May we play a tape of Mr. Hoffa ?
The Chairman. All right. Have you a transcript of the recording?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
The Chairman. Let us have it.
(Members of the select connnittee present at this point in the pro-
ceedings were: Senators McClellan, Ives, Ervin, Goldwater, and
Curtis. )
(Transcript of telephone conversation between Johnny Dio and
Jimmy Hoffa on June 2, 1953 follows:)
Operatok's Voice. Hello, Mr. Hoffa? Hello?
Jimmy Hoffa. Yes, m'am.
Operator. Mr. Hoffa? One moment please.
Johnny Dio. Hello, Jim?
Hoffa. Hi, Johnny ; how are you?
Dio. How are you feeling?
Hoffa. Good, John. You?
Dio. All right.
Hoffa. Good.
Dxo. You're not going to be out of town Thursday morning, are you?
Hoffa. I won't John ; I'll be here.
5252 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Dio. Well, I'm leaving Thursday morning around 8 o'clock in the morning.
HOFFA. What time do you arrive, Johnny?
Dio. Well, how long does it take?
HoFFA. About 2% hours.
Dio. About 2 Vo hours?
HoFFA. (Inaudible.)
Dio. What did you say? Hello? Hello? Hello? Hello? Hello?
OpiaiATCR. Operator.
Dio. Operator, you disconnected me with Detroit.
Operator. I didn't disconnect you, sir; just a minute please. You may have
been cut off on the circuit.
Did. Oh, I see.
Detroit Operator. Detroit.
New York Operator. Operator; am I connected with Woodward 1-1241?
Detroit Operator. No, you're not.
New York Operator. Operator, would you ring them back, please?
Dio. (Aside). The reason why I'm not even — even gonna talk to you guys
now is because one of you is talking ; I got an idea who it is.
Voice. ( In backbround ) . ( Inaudible. )
Dio. Yeah.
Woman's Voice. Mr. Hoffa's office.
Operator. Operator, we were disconnected from you.
Woman's Voice. Is this New York again?
Operator. Yes, it is.
WoMA?»^'s Voice. Is your party on the lino?
Operator. Yes, he is.
Dio. Hello.
HoFFA. Hello.
Dio. Hello, Jim ; we were disconnected. Awwwww — I'm leaving early in the
morning
HoFFA. (Inaudible.)
Dio. I should be there about 10 : 30-11 o'clock.
HoFFA. Ten thirty-11 o'clock?
Dio. Yeah ; I'll see you in the office.
HoFFA. I'll have a car pick you up.
Dio. Don't worry about it.
HoFFA. Yes I will.
Dio. All right, look ; I'll send you a wire and let you know what flight I'm
leaving on.
HoFFA. Okay, Johnny.
Dio. I got a couple of those things
HoFFA. Good.
Dio. So, ah, maybe — maybe I'll have four of them tomorrow.
HoFFA. Fine.
Dio. All right?
HoFFA. Yeah, .John.
Dio. But two I got for sure
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. But I may have four tomorrow. O. K.
HoFFA. Yeah, John.
Dio. All right, Jim.
HOFFA. O. K.
Dio. Bye, bye.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoif a, what were these things that he was talking
about ?
]Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, I have read this and listened to the re-
cording, and I recognize my voice, and I believe it is Dio's voice. But
after reading this, I cannot refresh my memory from the notes, to the
best of my recollection, I cannot understand what he would be talking
about, "four of them" and I don't know whether or not he ever came
to Detroit at that particular time.
Mr. Kennedy. You just cannot tell us anything about what the
"four of them" was ?
IMPROPER ACrriVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5253
Mr. HoFFA. It could be four of almost anything.
Mr. Kennedy. What was it, that is what we are trying to find out.
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot, from this conversation, sir, be able to recall
Avhat it is. It may not have happened. Did he come in, do you know ?
The Chairman. What was so mysterious about it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't think that there could have been anything mys-
terious about it, but the way it reads, it implies that there is, but it
seems to be a rather jumbled up telephone conversation.
The Chairman. The way it reads is the way it was recorded, I
believe.
This may be printed, this transcript may be printed in the record in
full.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you meet with him ? Did you meet with Dio ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, as I say, Mr. Dio did come to Detroit, and I can-
not recall whether or not it was this trip or whether he arrived there
or not because if he arranged the meeting he may have canceled it or
may not have come in, and I cannot recall, whether there would be a
meeting out of this telephone conversation or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have two things with him when he arrived ?
Mr. HoFFA. As I say, to the best of my recollection, and after read-
ing this, I cannot recall what he is talking about when he makes the
statement "I'll have four of them tomorrow." "But two I got for
sure — but I may have four tomorrow." It doesn't refresh my memory
as to what it means.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he getting any Minif ons for you at that time ?
Mr. HoFFA. Was he getting them for me ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. HoFFA. I bought some Minifons, but from my recollection I
cannot recall whether he was in it or not.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember whether he brought Minifons
for you from the East ?
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot, to the best of my recollection, get whether he
did or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat did you do with the Minifons you purchased ?
Mr. HoFFA. What did I do with them ? Well, what did I do with
them ?
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do with them ?
Mr. HoFFA. I am trying to recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You could remember that.
Mr. HoFFA. When were they delivered, do you know ? That must
have been quite awhile.
Mr. Kennedy. You know what you did with the Minifons and don't
ask me.
Mr. HoFFA. What did I do with them ?
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do w4th them ?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Kennedy, I bought some Minifons, and there is no
question about it, but I cannot recall what became of them.
Mr. Kennedy. They just arrived ?
Mr. HoFFA. I am trying to answer you question. I know that they
were around the office, and I believe we used them. I am trying to re-
fresh my memory now, and I believe we used them to report some
union meetings. I had them for the purpose of being able to go into
meetings of political and other nature, to record information. But
5254 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I cannot recall when we did it or how we did it. That was the ])urpose
of buying them.
Mr. Kennedy. You wore Minif ons yourself.
Mr. HoFFA. What is that ?
Mr. Kennedy. You wore a Minifon yourself.
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot recall doing it, and I may have.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, now, you remember what you did. You said
you bought a package of Minifons, and they arrived at the office, and
it is fairly reasonable, ]Mr. Holla, wliat you did with them.
Did you ever wear one 'i
Mr. HoFFA. You say "wear." What do you mean by "wear"?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever have one, did you ever use one '( Did
you ever have one in your possession i
Mr. HoFFA. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. In what connection ^
Mr. HoFFA. 1 had it in my office looking at it.
Mr. Kennedy. Looking at it ?
Mr. HoFFA. Trying to see how it worked.
Mr. Kennedy. You purchased these Minifons so you could do that?
Mr. IIoFFA. AVel], I said, to the best of my recollection, we purchased
them for the recording of meetings in political union meetings, and
I can't recall for what else.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Mr. Hoil'a, if you Avant to recoi-d a meeting, you can
go and get a recording machine. A Minifon is far different from a
plain recording machine. A Minifon you have in your possession,
and they are small instruments. What were you doing with the
Minifons? Did you pass any of the Minifons out to the teamster
business agents?
Mr. HoFFA. I may have, but I cannot recall who.
Mr. Kennedy. To whom did you give them ?
]\Ir. HoFFA. I can't, to the best of my recollection — I am trying to
give you the fact that we purchased them. I took the responsibility
for purcliasing them.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you purchase them through ?
]\Ir. HoFFA. Well, I don't know.
]Mr. Kennedy. Where did you purchase them ?
Mr. HoFFA. It seems to me that a fellow by the name — and this is
to my best recollection- — a fellow by the name of Spindel sold them
to us, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. Kennedy. Where is lie from ?
Mr. HoFFA. Xew York.
Mr. Kennedy. And he brought them to you ?
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know whether he did or not.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Chairman, may I address the Chair ?
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Spindel is indicted jointly with Mr. Hoffa in
the southern district of New York for a conspiracy to violate section
605. It seems to me that we are getting very, very close to the border
line here, and I do not want to.
The Chairman. You do not use a Minifon in wiretapping, do you ?
Mr, Fitzgerald. No, but we are moving into that area, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. If we do not get into wiretapping, we are not into
that area of wiretapping, and that is what he is indicted for.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5255
Mr. Fitzgerald. But it is the proof of association and business rela-
tionships which leads to a proof of conspiracy, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Well, I think the committee is entitled to know if
these things are proper instrumentality to be used in a labor union,
and I think the committee should know it.
If it is an improper practice, I think it should be developed.
Would you say it is a proper practice or improper practice ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. It would depend upon their use.
The Chairman. It might, and we are trying to find out how it is
used.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That I have to admit, but I do believe that since
we are in a situation where we are talking about a so-called cocon-
spirator under indictment.
The Chairman. Is Dio under indictment with him ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes. No ; I am sorry, I didn't say Dio.
The Chairman. I said Dio.
Mr, Fitzgerald. No, I was referring to Spindel.
The Chairman. We are trying to determine if Mr. Dio brought
those instruments out there.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I did not object while that was going on, but when
the question of Spindel came up, I was trying to call it to the Chair's
attention.
Senator Curtis. Could we have the witness describe a Minifon?
He seems to have used one. What is it like and how big is it ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe it is about the size of a tablet, I think that
would be a fairly accurate description.
Senator Citrtis. What is it used for ?
Mr. HoFFA. Recording, sir.
Senator Curtis. Where can it be placed on a person ?
Mr. HoFFA. In your hand, or put it in your pocket.
Senator Curtis. Is one of its purposes to make recordings without
having it apparent that a recording is being made ?
Mr. HoFFA. It could be.
Senator Mundt. Are they generally sold on the open market in elec-
trical stores ?
Mr. HoFFA. I believe so, they are. I think that they are advertised
in magazines and so forth.
Senator Mundt. I never heard of one myself. It sounds like a
mechanical eavesdropper machine.
Mr. HoFFA. I am quite sure you will find them advertised in maga-
zies, and I think certain radio stores may carry them, and I don't know.
Senator Mundt. How much do they cost ? You say you bought four
of them ?
Mr. HoFFA. I didn't say I got four. I can't remember how many I
bought and I can't remember the price.
Senator Mundt. Dio said, "I will have four of them, tomorrow."
Mr. HoFFA. What he is saying there, but I cannot recall ever having
anything to do with these in relationship to what we are talking about.
Senator Mundt. He said he got two for sure.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't know what he is talking about.
Senator Mundt. It looks like you ordered 4, but got 2. Talking
about these Minifons, can you think of anything else he was trying to
buy for you, that might be 2 or perhaps 4 ?
89330 O -57 -pt. 13-22
5256 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIEGLD
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, when I read this, and
after reading this, I cannot recall what four he was talking about.
Senator Mundt. You knew then very clearly. "I got a couple of
those things,"' and you didn't say, "What did you get,'" you just said,
"Good."
Mr. HoFFA. Maybe it didn't happen, and I cannot recall, and this
thing may not have happened.
Senator Mundt. It could not have gotten on the tape if it had not
happened.
Mr. HoFFA. I don't mean that and I am not saying that the con-
versation didn't take place, but the four he talks about, whatever it
may have been, may never have arrived.
To the best of my recollection, I could not recall exactly what he is
talking about.
Senator Mundt. How man}' Minifons did you get ?
This is something you do not forget because it is not like buying
a sack of sugar or a sack of flour. You said the other day you can
remember the things unusual in your life and this is unusual and I
take it you are not a Minifon agent and you do not buy a lot of them.
How many did you buy ?
Mr. HoFFA. This question was asked of me about 3 months ago.
Senator Mundt. Can you remember the answer you gave 3 months
ago?
Mr. HoFFA. And I had to sav at that time, they had a bill of some
description that did not clearly indicate it
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot recall how many I bought. There was a bill
at that time and I do not remember whether or not they were itemized
or whether there was a total bill, sir.
Senator Mundt. Who asked you the question 3 months ago, someone
fromyour staff ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, it was a person, Mr. Fitzgerald talked about,
and I don't want, unless the Chair orders, I don't want to discuss
where it was, and I think that they can surmise.
Senator Mundt. Somebody was investigating it 3 months; is that
right ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. And they asked you about these ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. And they had a bill ?
Mr. HoFFA. They had a total bill, sir.
Senator Mundt. What is that ?
Mr. HoFFA. A total bill.
Senator Mundt. W^hich had been paid for by the teamsters ?
Mr. HoFFA. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Counsel, does it show on the teamsters books,
and do we have the books to show how mucli the bill was ?
Mr. Kennedy. I don't know what teamster account it was on.
Senator Mundt. Maybe you can help us on that. Was it your local ?
Mr. HoFFA. As to the Chair, if I may address the Chair, this con-
cerns my indictment, sir, and am I required to answer the question? j
The Chairman. Let us see now. What was the question?
Senator Mundt. The question was, Avhich local paid for the
Minifon.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5257
The Chairman. I don't believe that you are indicted for these
Minifons, are you ?
Mr. HoFFA. But the time I was questioned, sir, the question came up.
The Chairman. If it came up in connection with his indictment, I
wouldn't ask him that. You can ask him where he got them and
whether he paid for them and so on. I don't want to do anything that
would interfere.
Senator Mundt. Does it interfere with your rights as an indictee
to ask you what you did with them after you got them ?
The Chairman. The Minifons are not involved in the indictment.
Senator Mundt. No.
The Chairman. The Minifons are not involved in the indictment
and I understand the indictment is for wiretapping and Minifons is
a different thing.
Senator Mundt. I haven't asked you whether you used them as a
wiretapping device, and I don't think you did. I think that you used
them for people to carry to a meeting where they could record con-
versations without the people engaging in the conversations knowing
they were being tapped. I think that is the reason you have Mini-
fons. It is to tap a conversation, or record a conversation. That is
because you don't want the people to know about it and you strap them
around your body or put them in your pocket or keep them concealed.
Isn't that the reason you have Minifons? To be perfectly frank
about it.
Mr. HoFFA. We had Minifons as I stated, for meetings or for what-
ever we deemed it necessary to have them for, and to the best of my
recollection I can't recall any meetings that we were at at this time.
Senator Mundt. Now a Minifon, Mr. Hoft'a, doesn't have legs, it
has to walk into a room on somebody's body.
Mr. HoFFA. I recognize that, sir.
Senator Mitndt. Were you the man who took the Minifons into
these meetings, and were you the Minifon operator?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, I don't ever recall taking
one into a meeting. I think what I did was to have it in my office.
That is the best I can recall.
Senator Mundt. Did you use it in your office to record conversations
taking place there ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I don't know if I recorded anybody's conversation
or not. I think what we were doing was experimenting with it to see
how it worked, and it wasn't satisfactory.
Senator Mundt. It didn't work out satisfactorily. But you paid for
them and you didn't return them.
Mr. HoFFA. I paid for them.
Senator Mundt. You didn't say, "This gimmick won't work."
Mr. HoFFA. They weren't very satisfactory. They were very thin
wire, and they weren't very satisfactory, and I cannot recall from my
memory as to any instance of having a Minifon.
Senator Mundt. Are you able to answer categorically yes or no to
this question : Did you ever wear a Minifon into a meeting for the
purpose of secretly recording conversations in that meeting ? If you
say no, we have made a lot of progress. If you say yes, I have some
more questions.
This is something that you surely would remember, because this is an
unusual type of performance for you to engage in.
5258 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. HoFFA. I am thinking about it, Senator, and I think I can give
you an answer. I am trying to run through this period of time in
my mind all of this time, and it is very difficult.
Senator Mundt. Very good.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, to the best of my recollection, I do not believe
that I did. I cannot recall any incident to the best of my recollection.
Senator Mundt. Could you give me a shorter answer which would
not include the phrase "to the best of your recollection'' ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir, because I just can't recall. I am trying to, but
I can't recall.
Senator Muxdt. Do you not think you would recall if you had ever
worn one of these? You would have a peculiar feeling, would you
not, all strapped up for wiretapping, walking into a room? This is
something unusual that you would probably remember.
The Chairman. It is not wiretappmg.
Senator Mundt. Not wiretapping. Conversation tapping. You
walk into a room — this is kind of a thrilling experience. You feel
like sort of an espionage agent, I imagine, wearing of these things,
and wondering if they are going to see you, and does it tick. I am
sure you would remember if you ever strapped yourself into one of
them, to sneak into a room to pick up a conversation. I would like
to have you say "Yes, I did, and this was the reason" or "No, I did
not," and not go through that "to the best of my recollection" routine
on something that you should know about.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, you may have been able to remember it, and
if you did, with so many things happening in my life I have to answer
you the way I did.
To the best of my recollection, I do not believe I did.
Senator Mundt. Did anybody, at your direction, ever wear one of
these mechanical eavesdroppers into a room to bring back a report
on what took place inside the room ?
Mr. HoFFA. Again I have to say to the best of my recollection
I did not remember ever assigning anybody specifically or otherwise
for this purpose.
Senator Mundt. But it could have happened ?
Mr. HoFFA. It is possible, I don't say it couldn't have happened,
but I do not, from recollection, recall it.
The Chairman. Let the Chair ask you a question. You say if we
can suggest something it might remind you. Let me see if I can be
of a little help.
At the time you bought these Minifons, you were under investiga-
tion by a grand jury, were you not ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Fitzgerald reminds me that there was a grand
jury.
The Chairman. Did you not buy them for the specific purposes,
and did you not use them for the specific purpose, of placing them on
witnesses who went into the grand jury room to testify so that when
they came out you would have a recording of what they said ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. And did you not use them for that purpose?
(^The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Chairman, I would like to answer that as a direct
question, but again I am reminded in my own mind, listening to state-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5259
ments that have been made in this committee, attributed to myself,
by other people, which I can't recall, and I have to say to the best of
my recollection I cannot recall anybody being assigned or going into
any grand jury chambers, and I may say, sir, that a certain judge
that conducted that vigorously denied it when it appeared in the
newspaper.
The Chairman. Let me ask you one more time. If you did this,
this is certainly something you would not forget, unless you were in
such a habit of it, and it has become such a habit, you could not re-
member it at that particular time, and there is no evidence here to
indicate that.
(At this point, Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Did you not procure these Minifons for the pur-
pose of, and did you not use them to place on witnesses who went
before the grand jury, so that when they came out you would have
a recording of the testimony they had given ?
Mr. HoFFA. May I consult with my attorney, sir ?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Let us have order.
All right.
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Chairman, a^ain I must say to the best of my recol-
lection, I did not assign, nor direct anybody to do any such a thing,
but because of stories appearing in the paper, which I don't have any
knowledge of, and cannot recall from memory, I must make the state-
ment I am making, sir. If you have something to refresh my mem-
ory, I will be glad to try and help you, sir.
The Chairman. I have done as much to refresh your memory as
I know how to do. If you cannot recall it from that, and you want
to leave the record that way, if you want to think that this committee
is so stupid and that the public is so stupid that they will believe that
you could not remember having done a thing like that, you leave the
record that way.
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, can you refresh your recollection at all
now in connection with this, or in connection Avith anything, if Mr.
Dio made any arrangements to send people out to your headquarters
in Detroit?
Mr. HoFFA. To the best of my recollection, I must recall on my
memory, I cannot remember.
Mr. Kennedy. "To the best of my recollection I must recall on my
memory that I cannot remember," is that your answer ?
Mr. HoFFA. That is right. I cannot remember anybody being sent
there.
The Chairman. Let us have order.
Mr. Kennedy. Could I try to refresh his recollection, Mr. Chair-
man, again?
We are almost running out of refreshers, Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I am trying to help. This is a serious
situation.
The Chairman. Let us have order.
Pass around the transcript.
Let us have order now.
5260 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Proceed.
(Transcript of telephone conversation between James Hoifa to
Johnny Dio on June 16, 1953, follows :)
Johnny Dio. Hello ; just a moment.
Woman's Voice. Just a moment, sir.
(Dio inaudible.)
( Voice inaudible. )
Dio. Hello.
Woman's Voice. Mr. J. Dio?
Dio. Hello.
Woman's Voice. Hello, sir, are you Mr. J. Dio?
Dio. That's right.
Woman's Voice. Detroit is calling. Go ahead, sir.
Jimmy Hoffa. Hello.
Dio. Hello, James.
Hoffa. Johnny ; how are you?
Dio. Aw, J — , I've been worried about you ; I've been following you up every
day in the newspapers.
Hoffa. Yeah. Well, I didn't call beca
Dio. I know, but I was d — all I wanted to know was how were things ; that's
about all. I finally called Dave yesterday. I tried — because I saw his name
in the papers, too, so I thought maybe he'd know and he said everything so far
so good. I tried to contact you in Cleveland.
Hoffa. Yeah : I run out of there early — —
Did. I know, and — I know I saw, I read in papers where you give whats-
hisname a nice verbal lashing. ^ATien you are ready on the election let me
know : I'll come up and be a picket.
Hoffa. [Much laughter.]
Dio. Did my man get there all right?
Hoffa. Yes ; he was here last week.
Dio. Yeah.
Hoffa. He — he was to see you over the weekend that's why I thought he
would tell you the whole story.
l>io. Yes. Well. I didn't see him because I was busy.
Hoffa. I see. He was back here again this week, two of them.
Did. Well, he'll be back.
Hoffa. He's here now.
Dio. Is he there now?
Hoffa. And they are doing that work.
Dio. Uh-huh.
Hoffa. Uhhh — he had to have 13 last week for supplies.
Dio. Huh?
Hoffa. He wanted
Dio. Well, I gave him a few hundred when he left.
Hoffa. He wanted $500 for (inaudible) supplies.
Dio. Uh-huh. I'll a
Hoffa. Now, ah — insofar as work is concerned you better have him call you
before he starts.
Did. Yeah, but look Jim ; you remember you do all your discussing there with
him because if you don't like anything tell me. You know what I mean?
Hoffa. Well, he's doing all right.
Dio. Well, I'm going to tell you this. Those are the best
Hoffa. Yeah, you're doing a wonderful job.
Dio. They are the best ; they work for the UN and everything else, now — and
whenever you want to need 'em any part of the country if you want to find out
they're your people you let me know. You know what I mean?
Hoffa. Yup.
Dio. Otherwise, how's things, Jim?
Hoffa. All right, John. We got a grand jury.
Dio. They do have one?
Hoffa. Grand jury started this morning.
Dio. Uh-huh.
Hoffa. And apparently they're going to try to indict everybody in sight.
Dio. Uh-huh.
Hoffa. However, I don't know what in the h they gonna indict people
on ; there don't seem to be nothing here ; primarily it's Buffalino they're after.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5261
Dio. Yeah. Bad publicity, too.
HoFFA. And now they have put it into the parljing lots
Dio. Uh-huh.
HoFFA. Ahhh, bowling alleys
Dio. Uh-huh.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. Uh-huh.
HoFFA. Laundries and linen.
Dio. Uh-huh. Hello?
HoFFA. I'm not talking from my oflSce so it don't make any difference.
Dio. Yeah. Well — I'm only — all I'm interested in is that I hope everything
works out fine and that's all I'm interested and if I can be of any help Jim in
any way ; I know politically there I can't help you.
HoFFA. Well
Dio. My case, incidentally, I went to court this morning and they postponed
it till October the 5th.
HoFFA. Ah, just what you said — political.
Dio. Well, that's — that's what — but it was important for me to get it post-
poned, Jim, because nominations are this month, y'know.
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. And we'll see.
HoFFA. But I feel sure it's going to be a long, drawnout affair, I'm afraid.
Dio. Ah, for Ch 's sake.
HoFFA. I don't think they'll make it in a hurry : I think they'll drag it along
and make a lot of publicity and bad headlines
Dio. Yeah, uh-huh
HoFFA. And a lot of that stuff.
Dio. Well, d it, boy : I feel for you. I know what I've been going through.
HoFFA. Well, I've had — this is the third trip I've had with them.
Dio. Well, I won't discourage you but I can only — only one thing I want
to tell you, not that I want you to do anything about it, but I want to tell you.
One thing I wanted to read if you don't mind a minute.
HoFFA. Go ahead, Johnny.
Dio. A statement from Thomas L. Hickey, international vice president : "The
recent action of the executive council of the AFL in removing local 102 from the
Mew York City taxi scene has cleared the way for New York City cabdrivers
to organize under the jurisdiction of the largest union in the A. F. of L. * * *",
and then the rest of the bull . After I send them that telegram and
everything.
HoFFA. That stupid son of a .
Dio. Well, I just wanted you to know. Don't do nothing about it. Take care
of your own troubles right now
HoFFA. After all, what luck is he having?
Dio. What did you say?
HoFFA. What luck does he have?
Dio. Oh, you know he ain't going to have no luck. Son of a ; God alone is
going to pun — punish him. He ain't got no luck. For C 's sake, guys are
walking away left and right. But, we won't worry about that Jim ; you know,
you said once, "Don't rock the boat."
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. Yeah, well listen, we're here to stay ; we're not going to die tomorrow —
we hope — and — a — we're not that old.
HoFFA. Ah, I think it'll work out.
Dio. You know we're only a couple of 4-year-olders ; you know.
HoFFA. These old bas will all be dead.
Dio. What?
HoFFA. These old bas — — will all be dead.
Dio. Well, Jim, you ju — ah, I'm glad I spoke to you ; I didn't want anything
other than I wanted to know if my guys were doing a job-
HoFFA. Very good.
Dio. And please call me at anytime, Jim, if I can be of any help.
HoFFA. Right, Johnny.
Dio. And one of these weeks maybe I'll run in on you for a day
HoFFA. Okay.
Dio. And give my regards at home and to Bert and everybody else.
HoFFA. Right, Jack.
5262 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Dio. Well, I'll call you now and then — will only be just like to find out what's
what.
HoFFA. I'm tickled to death to talk anytime ; I'll call you to keep you informed
too.
Dio. All right, Jim.
HoFFA. Right.
Dio. I been buying the Detroit papers every day— —
HoFFA. Ha, ha, ha
Dio. You know, we get 'em here, you know, on 42d Street.
HoFFA. Yeah, yeah.
Dio. So I've been following them up.
HoFFA. Yeah.
Dio. All right, Jim, take it easy.
HoFFA. Okay, Johnny.
Dio. Right. Bye.
The CiiAiRMAX, This transcription will be printed in the record.
All right, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Does that refresh your recollection, Mr. Hoif a ?
Mr. IIoFFA. Listeninjr to the recordin<r, I believe that it is my voice.
It sounds like John Dio. But it is almost 4 years ago, and I do not
have any independent recollection as to the substance of the call. To
the best of my recollectoin, it did not — my memory was not refreshed by
reading this. This concerned a grand jury.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, let us not go that fast. Let us go back here to
the top of page two :
Dio. Did my man get there all right?
HoFFA. Yes, he was here last week.
Dio. Yeah.
HoFFA. He — he was to .see you over the weekend that's why I thought he would
tell you the whole story.
Dio. Yes. Well, I didn't see him because I was busy.
HoFFA. I see. He was back here again this week, two of them.
Dio. Well, he'll be back.
HoFFA. He's here now.
Dio. Is he there now V
HoFFA. And they are doing that work.
Dio. Uh-huh.
HoFFA. Uh-huh — he had to have 13 last week for supplies.
Dio. Huh?
HoFFA. He wanted
Dio. Well, I gave him a few hundred when he left.
HoFFA. He wanted .$.jOO for (inaudible) supplies.
Dio. UVhuh. I'll a
HoFFA. Now, ah — insofar as work is concerned you better have him call you
before he starts.
What is that about, Mr. Hoffa I
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, apparently it was something I was having done,
and I cannot recollect from this telephone call exactly what it was.
I can probably check up and maybe I can inquire around as to what it
was, but at this particular moment I cannot give you the answer.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa, you have been continuously asking us
to refresh your memory.
Mr. HoFFA. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Can you tell us how we can do it ?
Mr. Hoffa. Well, sir
The Chairman. How? After all, are you still taking the position
that your memory has failed you ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5263
Mr. HoFFA. I doirt say my memory has failed, but I say to the best
of my recollection, I cannot recall the substance of this telephone call,
nor place the facts together concerning: what it pertains to.
The Chairman. But if these things do not refresh your memory,
it would take the power of God to do it.
The instrumentalities of mankind, obviously, are not adequate.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. It doesn't refresh your recollection —
They are the best ; they work for the U. N. and everywhere else?
Listen to this carefully —
And wherever you want to need 'em, any part of the country if you want to find
out they're your people, you let me know.
What does that mean —
If you want to find out they're your people you let me know?
What does that mean ? Who are these people ?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, Mr. Kennedy, I realize what the Chair just said,
but I still must say to the best of my recollection, I cannot recall what
that paragraph you read means at this time. I cannot recall it.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, it is just beyond the powers of compre-
hension that you can't recall that. A reasonable man cannot believe
you when you say that you can't recall that.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. Well, I would say this to you. I just don't have a normal
situation here in regards to the occupation T am in. I have strikes,
I have people visiting me, meetings, telephone calls, and a hundred
and one things. I cannot, to the best of my recollection, give you an
answ^er to w^hat this pertains to.
Mr. Kennedy. You have had the worst case of amnesia in the last 2
days I have ever heard of.
The Chairman. Let us have order.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, getting back to page two, I have a
question.
You certainly can find a better answer than you have given, Mr.
Hoffa, for a conversation where you, yourself, tell Dio that his man
wanted $500 from you for supplies.
Let us get this picture. Here was a racketeer, who has a record in
Sing Sing, who has a record of nil kinds of violent activities in New
York. He is sending you a man. His man comes out and he wants
$500 for supplies. You certainly can tell us whether those supplies
were dynamite for blowing up a building, if they were batteries or
wires for this Minifon business, so that he can move in and record a
secret conversation, or whether they were groceries for a starving
family.
What were they ?
I think this committee has a right to know% and I think that you cer-
tainly can recall an unusual circumstance like that. This isn't just
an ordinary thing. Some of the times that you have said your memory
has failed you, I have been inclined to think that there w-as a reason
for it, that you could not remember an ordinary conversation, whether
you w\alked into a hotel and rode up an elevator with a certain man or
not. But when you tell this committee that you cannot remember
whether you ever tried to use a Minifon to record the proceedings of
5264 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
a grand jury, that you cannot tell whether you ever used a Minifon
yourself to walk in, sneak in, and under the cover of darkness take
out of the meetings certain findings and facts and conversations, and
tell us that you cannot remember whether you ever gave one of Dio's
thugs $500 for supplies and, if so, you cannot remember what the sup-
plies were for, you lose us. It is impossible.
I could not believe this if I were not sitting here listening to it. It
would be easier for me to understand your saying "I take the fifth on
it" because it is something to cover up.
But when you say you cannot remember, cannot remember whether
you ever tried to prevert justice in grand jury, that is a terrible state-
ment to make.
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I am sorry that is your position, but to the
best of my recollection, I cannot recall, and this does not refresh my
memory as to this conversation.
(At this point. Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt. Do you remember giving them the $500 ?
Mr. HoFFA. I say to the best of my recollection I do not recall the
situation.
Senator Mundt. Do you remember his asking for the $500?
Mr. HoFFA. I can't recall, sir. I can't recall the conversation. I
can't recall the situation, sir.
Mr. Kenxedy. Now would you come over to page 5 ?
Dio says:
A statement from Thomas L. Hickey, international vice president —
and he reads it to you —
"The recent action of the executive council of the AFL in removing local 102
from the New York City taxi scene has cleared the way for New York City cab
drivers to organize under the jurisdiction of the largest union in the A. F. of L. — "
That is your own union that is being referred to there —
and then the rest of the bull . After I send them that telegram and every-
thing.
AndHoffa—
That stupid son of a .
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Why were you calling Mr. Tom Hickey a "stupid
son of a " in connection with that statement?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, I just don't have any independent recollection to
this particular incident. To the best of my recollection, I cannot
other than give the answers I am giving you.
Mr. Kennedy. Why was Tom Hickey a "stupid son of a "
for making the statement that the teamsters were going to organize
the taxicabs? Why did you and Johnny Dio agree that Tom Hickey, a
teamster vice president in his own area, was a "stupid son of a "
because he was trying to organize the taxicab drivers?
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I don't know. At that time the statement
probably was made, but I don't recall it. I don't recall why. There
may have been more to it than this conversation.
Mr. Kennedy. You cannot recall that ?
Mr. HoFFA. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And Dio goes over on page 6 and says, "God alone is
going to punish him." Evil old Tom Hickey, God alone is going to
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5265
punish him — He doesn't say evil old Tom Hickey — he is such a
bad man — he is tryinjj to organize the taxicab drivers for the team-
sters— that God alone is going to punish him, and you are joining in
that conversation, Mr. Hotfa.
Can you explain that to us?
Mr. HoFFA. Mr. Chairman, I cannot explain Dio's statement.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not oppose it. You said, "Right."
"But we won't worry about that, Jim; you know, you said once
'don't rock the boat' ", and you said, "Right."
Is that the way you treat your fellow vice presidents in the
teamsters ?
Jimmy Hoffa, ninth vice president of the teamsters ?
Or are you only interested in Jimmy Hoffa, not the teamsters ?
Mr. Hoffa. I am interested in the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters, and its members, and to the best of my recollection, I do
not recall this conversation.
Mr. Kennedy- Well, then, from this conversation, you were inter-
ested in Johnny Dio and Jimmy Hoffa and not the teamsters, Mr.
Hoffa.
You call him "that old bas will all be dead."
Did you call Mr. Hickey that name, to Johnny Dio, a racketeer, a
labor racketeer? Will you tell us about that?
Mr. Hoffa. I have made the statement
Mr. Kennedy. What is it?
Mr. Hoffa. That I do not recall the conversation. To the best of
my recollection, I am giving you my answers.
The Chairman. Let us move to the next. Is there anything else on
this one ?
Senator Citrtis. Who is the "Bert" referred to on the top of page 7
in this conversation ?
Mr. Hoffa. Burke, did you say ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Hoffa. This particular one, I don't know what "Bert" I was
talking about.
Senator Curtis. It was Dio talking and it says :
Give my regard at home and to Bert and to everybody else.
Mr. Hoffa. I don't recall, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you know whose home he was talking about 2
Mr. Hoffa. What home ?
Senator Curtis. It says :
Give my regards at home.
Mr. Hoffa. Probably my home.
Senator Curtis. You do not know who Bert was ?
Mr. Hoffa. I do not know this conversation. I cannot recall who
Bert was.
Senator Curtis. Do you know any "Bert" ?
Mr. Hoffa, Yes-
Senator Curtis. And this Bert that you have in mind, does he know
Dio?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Hoffa. I know Bert Brennan and he knows Dio and I don't
know^ whether it was the conversation here or not.
5266 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Bert who ?
Mr. HoFFA. Bert Brennan.
Senator Curtis. And you do not know whether that was the Bert
referred to ?
Mr. HoFFA. I cannot recall which Bert we w^ere referring to.
Senator Curtis. Well, what do you remember after having heard
the transcription and having read the transcript of it ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. HoFFA. Well, sir, I have no independent recollection at this
time, as to what it referred to or who he referred to.
Senator Curtis. I mean anywhere in the seven pages, do you remem-
ber anything ?
Mr. HoFFA. At this time I have no independent recollection of this
conversation and if it would not have been played back and presented
here, I would not have recalled or would not even remember that I
made such a conversation.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. The audience may be at ease for a moment. We
will take about a 2-minute recess.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair ?
The Chairman. You may.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I have acted as counsel for Mr. HofTa, and the
counsel of record is Mr. Sol Gebb, of New York. I have worked with
him on the case under which Mr. Hoffa is indicted with Mr, Brennan
and Mr. Spindel in the southern district of New" York, for conspiracy
to violate section 605 of title 47 of the United States Code.
I am satisfied from the grand jury's investigations that this wire-
tapping recording that you read bears directly upon that, and is part of
the Government's case, and will be so used in the southern district of
New York.
Now, 1 am sure that the general counsel and the staff of this com-
mittee know that. I did not believe it possible that they would want
to pursue a subject of this kind with a man under indictment.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you want to say this under oath, Mr. Fitzgerald ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I am talking as counsel.
The Chairman. Be brief. We agreed and the committee has held
and I have held and I think you agreed that a Minifon could not be
used for wiretapping, and the indictment is for wiretapping.
Mr. Fitzgerald. This is not related to the Minifon. This partakes
of every part of the indictment in New York. I say I don't think that
the Chair or this committee realizing that, would want to pursue this
inquiry further when Mr. Hoffa has to stand trial.
The Chairman. All right, just a moment.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I would like questioning deferred on it and I make
it in good faith.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. The Chair will not pursue
the matter any further at this time. But I will make some observa-
tions :
First, on behalf of the committee the Chair wishes to thank all of
those who have greath^ facilitated our preparations for these hearings
relating to New York. We are deeply grateful to Mr. Joseph Camp-
bell, Comptroller General of the United States, who has made available
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5267
to US on a loan basis, some 18 accountants and investigators from the
New York office.
I would like to particularly mention Mr. Owen Kane, who acted as
liaison between the committee and the General Accounting Office in
Washington.
I am also grateful to Mr. John McElligot of the Internal Revenue
Service in New York, who assisted our staff. We, of course, are most
grateful to Mr. Frank Hogan, district attorney of New York County,
for the wholehearted cooperation furnished by Al Scottie, head of
the rackets bureau, along with Assistant District Attorney Harold
Bryan, Alvin Goldstein, and James Fitzpatrick. Their assistance is
indeed appreciated.
Also of invaluable assistance in the district attorney's office were in-
vestigators under the supervision of Mr. Thomas Fay of New York
Police Department and detectives under the supervision of Captain
Haynes,
I cannot close these hearings without expressing the committee's
appreciation to our staff, particularly the chief counsel, Robert Ken-
nedy, Paul Tierney, Bob Dunne, and Walter May, John Porta, Car-
mine Bellino, Pierre Salinger, Jerry Alderman, Cye Cheasty, and
Kenneth O'Donnell.
For reasons that are apparent to everyone who has followed these
hearings, we have reached a point where it seems to be useless and
n waste of the committee's time at this particular time to proceed
further.
We have proceeded to the point where the witness has no memory
and he cannot be helpful even when his memory is refreshed. There-
fore, the Chair is going to recess this series of hearings.
However, before I do so, I shall serve here in open session, a subpena
on Mr. Hoffa, which he may acknowledge, or which return may be
made on.
Serve it, Miss Clerk, and make a return on it so it is served here in
open session.
Mr. Hoffa will be back before this committee again. I cannot now
announce the time, but his presence will be needed. I hope in the
meantime he can refresh his memory.
But in conclusion the Chair wishes to make a i-esume of what has
been developed so far. I may say, I do not want to bring out any
more refreshers at this time. They seem not to have much effect and
they do not accomplish anything as far as aiding the witness.
In the course of these hearings, these facts have been disclosed,
together with information the committee has, and we are not disclosing
all of that information.
I want to make this summary.
CONFLICTS OF INTEREST IN LOANS
1. James R. Hoffa borrowed $5,000 in cash from Jack (Babe)
Bushkin, a labor-relations adviser who represents a number of em-
ployers with whom the teamsters have contracts.
2. James R. Hoffa borrowed $5,000 in cash from J. L. Keeshin, a
truck owner who had contracts with the teamsters union.
3. James R. Hoffa borrowed $25,000 in cash from Henry Lower, a
real-estate promoter whose Florida development. Sun Valley, is being
5268 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
sponsored by the teamsters union. HoflFa made this loan shortly
after he urgjed a Detroit bank — where the teamsters had lar^e
deposits — to loan $75,000 to Lower at 4 percent interest. Hoffa paid
Lower no interest.
4. James R. Hoffa sent teamster union business agents to Florida
at union expense to assist the Sun Valley project and had teamster
union business agents sell lots in the project. He did this despite
the fact he had an option to buy property in the development, the
success of which depended on the number of teamsters purchasing lots.
5. James R. Hoffa borrowed $25,000 in cash from Harold Mark, an
accountant and auditor, whose firm reviewed the records of the Central
States Southeast-Southwest Welfare Fund. In addition, Hoffa
obtained the loan soon after locals 299 and 337 of Detroit made loans
to Mark in excess of $100,000 at 6 percent interest. When Mark loaned
Hoffa back $25,000, he charged no interest.
6. James R. Hoffa borrowed $11,500 in cash from Herbert L. Gros-
berg, the accountant for teamster organizations in Detroit, who holds
his job at the pleasure of James R. Hoffa.
7. James R. Hoffa borrowed $18,000 in cash from a group of teamster
business agents in Detroit whose jobs depend on the good will of James
R. Hoffa.
UNION FUNDS
8. Local 337 of the teamsters union loaned $50,000 to the Northville
Downs Racetrack, a trotting-horse track in Michigan, where the long-
time associate of James R. Hoffa, Owen Brennan, a teamster union
official, raced part of his string of harness horses.
9. James R. Hoffa's home local 299 and local 337 in Detroit, Mich.,
purchased the home of Paul "The Waiter" Ricca, notorious mobster of
the Capone gang wlio has been ordered deported from this country.
10. James R. Hoffa's home local 299 and local 337 in Detroit, Mich.,
lent $75,000 to the Marberry Construction Co., ow ned by Herbert Gros-
berg, accountant for the teamsters union, and George Fitzgerald, at-
torney for the teamsters union. This is about the same time that Hoffa
obtained loans of $11,500 from Herbert Grosberg.
11. James R. Hoffa donated $5,000 of dues money paid by Michigan
teamsters to the reelection campaign of one Edward Crumback who
was running for the post of president of local 107 in Philadelphia,
Pa., against another teamster. Hoffa added he would not hesitate
to use union-dues money for his own reelection if he felt it necessary.
12. James R. Hoffa made arrangements for the donation of $3,000
to the Wholesale Produce Buyers Association of Detroit, which had
been charged by the Federal Government for violation of the antitrust
laws. Hoffa admitted that the members had not been consulted on
whether or not they wished to make this contribution.
CONFLICTS OF INTEREST AND BUSINESS TRANSACTIONS
13. James R. Hoffa set up a trucking company which leased its
equipment to the Baker Driveaway Co., owned by William Bridge, a
truck owner who had contracts with the teamsters union. The stock of
this company, the J & H Sales Co., was put in the name of Hoffa's
friend, James Montante, and then transferred to the names of Jose-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5269
phine Poszywak and Alice Johnson, maiden names of the wives of
James Hoffa and Owen Brennan.
14. J & H Sales became National Equipment Co. owned by Jose-
phine Poszywak and Alice Johnson, maiden names of Mrs. James HofFa
and Mrs. Owen Brennan. National Equipment leased equipment to
Baker Driveaway Co., at that time owned by William Bridge and
Carney Matheson, the Detroit lawyer who negotiated and negotiates
with the teamsters union on behalf of the drive-away and haul-away
truck employers.
15. The National Equipment Co., owned by Mrs. James Hoffa and
Mrs. Owen Brennan in their maiden names, ultimately sold its equip-
ment to the Convertible Equipment Leasing Co., owned by William
Bridge, a truck owner who had contracts with the teamsters union,
and Carney Matheson, Detroit lawyer who negotiates contracts with
the teamsters union.
16. Following the solution of labor problems in Flint, Mich., with
the intercession of James R. Hoffa, Commercial Carriers, Inc., a truck-
ing company with contracts with the teamsters union, played a part
in setting up the Test Fleet Corp. The general counsel of Commercial
Carriers, Mr. James Wrape, incorporated th« Test Fleet Corp. in
Tennessee under his name. Elliott Beidler, accountant for Commer-
cial Carriers, kept the books and records of Test Fleet for 4 years
at no salary. Commercial Carriers' owner, Bert Beveridge, signed
a $50,000 note for equipment for Test Fleet. After the company was
set up, the stock was quietly transferred into the names of Josephine
Poszywak and Alice Johnson, the maiden names of Mrs. James Hoffa
and Mrs. Owen Brennan.
17. Commercial Carriers Corp. handed Test Fleet Corp. lush con-
tracts for the transportation of Cadillacs. The result : On an original
investment of $4,000, Mrs. Hoffa and Mrs. Brennan received a net
profit of $125,000 in the period from January 1949 to December 31,
1956.
18. James R. Hoffa set up a company to make investment loans
with Carney Matheson, the Detroit attorney who negotiated contracts
wtih Mr. Hoffa and the teamsters union.
19. Mr. Hoffa joined with Mr. Allen Dorfman, general agent of the
Union Casualty Co., and Mrs. Rose Dorfman, a partner in the Union
Casualty Co., to purchase the Jack O'Lantern Lodge, known as JoU
Properties. Mr. Hoft'a entered this business relationship despite the
fact that he was the trustee for the Central States Conference Welfare
Fund, and the Dorfmans were representatives and collected large
premiums for the handling of this msurance fund.
20. Joll Properties, in which James R. Hoffa had a financial inter-
est, received $11,000 loan from the insurance company which handled
the multimillion-dollar business of the Central States Conference of
Teamsters.
21. James R. Hoffa and Dr. Leo Perlman, a majority stockowner in
the Union Casualty Co., went into business in North Dakota under the
name of Northwest Oil Co.
22. Mr. Hoffa joined Mr. Carney Matheson, the attorney who
negotiates contracts for a segment of the trucking industry, in an
investment in the Terminal Realty Co. in Detroit, Mich.
23. Mrs. James R. Hoffa acquired an interest in a trucking company
in Detroit, Mich., which had contracts with local 299 of the teamsters
5270 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
union, of which Mr. James R. Hotl'a is president. Another stock-
holder in this company was Dale Patrick, nephew of Frank Fitz-
simmons, a business agent of local 299.
CONFLICTS OF INTEREST IN STOCK
24. James R. Hoffa purchased 400 shares of stock in the
A. C. F. Wrigley Co., a Michigan supermarket firm with whom the
teamsters union has contracts. Labor-relations director of the A. C. F.
Wrigley Co., is Mr. Jack (Babe) Bushkin, from whom Hoffa borrowed
$5,000 in cash in 1952 or 1953.
25. James R. Hoffa purchased 600 shares in McLean Industries, a
company whose trucking division had contracts with the teamsters
union.
26. James R. Hoffa })urchased $25,000 in stock of the Fruehauf
Trucking Co., with whom the Central States Conference of Teamsters,
of which lie is the head, has contracts.
CLOSE ASSOCIATES OF JAMES R. HOFFA
27. James R. Hoffa placed one of his associates, Eugene C. (Jim-
mie) James as head of jukebox local 985 in Detroit, Mich. James was
accused by the Douglas-Ives committee of stealing some $900,000 from
the Laundry Workers International Union welfare fund.
2f8. James R. Hoffa and Owen Brennan, president of local 337 in
Detroit, lent James $2,000 or $2,500 to start the operations of local
985. James repaid Hoffa and Brennan by placing their wives on the
union payroll under their maiden names, Josephine Poszywak and
Alice Johnson. He had repaid almost three times the original invest-
ment when the matter came to light before a Michigan grand jury.
29. James R. Hoffa assisted Samuel "Shorty" Feldman, Philadel-
phia ex-convict, in obtaining a charter for friends in the Hotel and
Restaurant Workers Union.
30. James R. Hoffa imported Robert "Barney" Baker to work for
him as an organizer in the Central States Conference of Teamsters.
Baker, a New York tough with a prison record for throwing stink
bombs and injury to property, is referred to in the records of the
New York State Crime Commission as a collector for the Service
Collective Agency, a front through which large sums of money were
obtained from the public loading racket.
31. James R. Hoffa has had a long and continued association with
Johnny Dio, three times convicted labor extortionist, who has served
time in Sing Sing prison. I may say that testimony here today is so
convincing of that relationship, and the intimacy of it, that it is
unbelievable that Mr. Hoffa couldn't remember more about it.
32. James R. Hoffa maintained Gerald Connelly, a Minneapolis
organizer, in his job after he had been convicted of taking a bribe
from an employer in Minneapolis, Minn. Connelly had come to
Minneapolis after leaving Florida "under a cloud" after participation
in an organizational drive of the Laundry Workers International
Union in which he was associated with two gunmen, Solly Isaac and
Dave Cominsky, who were convicted for attempted murder.
33. Chicago taxicab local 777, a part of the Central States Confer-
ence of Teamsters, of which Hoffa is chairman, has maintained the
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5271
services of Trustee Joseph Glimco. Glimco has been indicted twice
on charges of murder and convicted on charges of larceny. He is a
close associate of Capone mobsters, including Tony Accardo and the
late Frank Nitti.
34. James R. Hoffa played a part in the speedy ascent of William
Presser to the chairmanship of the Ohio Conference of Teamsters.
Presser has been convicted of violation of the Federal antitrust laws
and has taken the fifth amendment before congressional committees in
relation to his financial affairs. Also, testimony in Toledo showed
Presser had accepted a payment of $2,500 for the setting up of an
employers jukebox association which was negotiating a contract with
his own union.
35. James R. Hoffa played a part in organizing a testimonial ban-
quet for Louis "Babe" Triscaro, head of the excavating drivers local
in Cleveland, Ohio, who spent time in the Ohio State Reformatory.
36. James R. Hoffa has a long and continued association with Lou
Farrell, a Des Moines, Iowa, racket figure who is also involved in the
labor-relations business. Reports of the Kefauver committee iden-
tified him as a Capone mobster operating in Iowa.
37. Local 299, joint council No. 43, the Michigan Conference of
Teamsters, and the Central States Conference of Teamsters, all of
which are headed by James R. Hoffa, employed persons as business
agents and organizers, despite the fact they had been accused of armed
robbery, kidnaping, larceny, bookmaking, throwing stench bombs, im-
personating Government officers, felonious assault, and carrying con-
cealed weapons.
38. James R. Hoffa set up an alliance with the International Long-
shoremen's Association after it had been thrown out of the AFL-CIO
for racket control. He also attempted to loan $490,000 to this organi-
zation.
39. James R. Hoffa has had a long and continuing association with
Angelo Meli, a Detroit prohibition hoodlum who has twice been ac-
cused of murder.
QITESTIONABLE EXPENSES
40. More than $5,000 in union funds were paid to the Woodner
Hotel in Washington, J). C, for the lodging of friends and associates
of James R. Hoffa during his trial on bribery-conspiracy charges.
This money came from union dues of teamster members in Chicago,
Detroit, and St. Louis.
PAPER LOCALS
41. James R. Hoffa masterminded and played a key role in the
chartering of seven paper locals in New York City, knowing these lo-
cals to be racket controlled and devoid of membership. Hoffa did this
to effect the election of his friend, John O'Rourke, who took the fifth
amendment before this committee as head of joint council 16 in New
York City.
TRUSTEESHIPS
42. James R. Hoffa was named trustee of local 614 in Pontiac, Mich.,
after top officers of that local were indicted for extortion in a Michi-
gan highway-paving scandal. Hoffa then appointed two of the in-
dicted officials as business agents to run the affairs of this local. They
were both subsequently convicted of extortion.
89330 O— 57— pt. 13 23
5272 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
43. James R. Hoffa was named trustee of local 823 in Joplin, Mo.,
after the local's president, Floyd C. Webb, had been accused of spend-
ing thousands of dollars in union funds for his own personal benefit
and after union members had complained that Webb had threatened
their lives for complaining about the way he was running the union.
After being named trustee, Hoffa named Webb to run the union unde*-
the trusteeship.
UNION MEMBERS
44. James R. Hoffa, who arranged for the loans of almost $250,000
in union funds to friends and acquaintances, it will be noted, sent a
Detroit teamster, who wanted to borrow $500, to the bank.
45. James R. Hoffa, who has repeatedly labeled himself as the cham-
pion of workingmen, attempted to put 30,000 taxicab drivers in New
York under the leadership of Johnny Dio, a convicted labor extor-
tionist. He did this only a month after New York newspapers had
published the fact that Dio had accepted more than $11,000 to keep
certain dress firms in Allentown, Pa., nonunion.
TEAMSTERS UNION
46. James R. Hoffa, the 9th vice president of the International
Brotherhood of Teamsters, supported the cause of labor racketeer
Johnny Dio in relation to a New York taxicab charter while he knew
that his own union was attempting to organize taxicabs under the di-
rection of teamsters union 3d vice president, Thomas L. Hickey.
47. James R. Hoffa and others under his direction, joined with
labor racketeer Johnny Dio in conspiring to obtain derogatory in-
formation which could be used for the purpose of blackening the
character of a fellow teamster, vice president, Thomas Hickey, and
thus permit Dio, a convicted extortionist, to operate the taxicab locals
in the teamsters.
ANSWERS TO COMMITTEE QUESTIONS
48. While teamster general president Dave Beck took the fifth
amendment some 140 times during one session, James R. Hoffa either
avoided or equivocated the answers to 111 questions at Thursday's
session.
Mr. Hoffa has not taken the fifth amendment, but Mr. Hoffa either
avoided or equivocated the answers to 111 questions at Thursday's
session and today, although we are adjourning early, I think that
he broke that record.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I make a statement, before you leave?
The Chairman. Very briefly.
Mr. Fitzgerald. It is about a matter that I spoke to you about and
not related to Mr. Hoffa.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Mr. Fitzgerald. This relates to Mr. David Previant, an attorney
at law, who, according to the record, it has been established here
on several pages of the transcript, and I won't refer to them, was for
a considerable period of time and is at the present time, attorney
and general counsel of the UAW-AFL.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5273
He belongs to the firm of Padway, Goldberg, and Previant, in
Milwaukee, Wis.
I merely want the record to show on behalf of Mr. Previant, who
I represent at this time, that he is an attorney for the UAW-AFL
and for the fact that he did not consent to the interception of the
telephone call, the recording of May 1, 1953. The recording of which
was read, or any of the other telephone calls.
The Chairman. The objections you made in the record, as to Mr.
Hoffa, may apply to him.
Mr. Fitzgerald. This was made on behalf of Mr. Previant. I
wanted the record to show that, nor did he consent to the transmission
broadcasting or divulging in any way of the contents of such talks.
The Chairman. I covered that.
The Chair wishes to specifically thank the audience. They have
been very cooperative and you have conducted yourself in a way
that enabled us to proceed at all times without any interference or
any inconvenience from the audience. You have been w^elcome and
we are glad you came.
Before I adjourn, I wish to admonish Mr. Hoffa that he will
remain under subpena, subject to being recalled upon reasonable
notice being given.
Thank you very much. The committee stands adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 35, p. m., the hearing in the above entitled mat-
ter was recessed subject to call of the Chair.)
APPENDIX
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Exhibit No. 169
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