rB"
f$. l3Alo
Given By
U. S. SUT^. OF DOCUMENTS
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INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 74, 85TH CONGRESS
SEPTEMBER 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, AND NOVEMBER 5, 1957
PART 14
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LIBOR OR MANAGEMENT PIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 74, 85TH CONGRESS
SEPTEMBER 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, AND NOVEMBER 5, 1957
PART 14
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OKFICIC
8933(1 WASHINGTON : 1957
Boston Public Library
Superinton^o;,^ of Documents
JAN 29 1958
SELECT COMMITTEE ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR
MANAGEMENT FIELD
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas, Chairman
IRVING M. IVES, New York, Vice Chairman
JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
SAM J. ERVIN, Jr., North Carolina BARRY GOLDWATER, Arizona
PAT McNAMARA, Michigan CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska
Robert F. Kennedy, Chief Counsel
Ruth Yodng Watt, Chief Clerh
n
CONTENTS
Detroit, Mich., and Related Areas
Page
Appendix 5721
Testimony of —
Adlerman, Jerome 538Z
Allen, Paul C 5307
Bell, William 5330
Bellino, Carmine S 5439,
5451, 5476, 5557, 5662, 5703
Beverage, B. B 5543
Bialkin, Bernard L 5616'
Bialkin, Margaret K 5616
Brennan, Owen B 5478, 5488
Buddie, Harold H 5474
Buffalino, William E 5631
Clift, James 5316
Craven, Howard C 5537
Fitzsimmons, Frank E 5339
Fitzgerald, George S 5678
Ginser, Leonard 5687
Hook, Floyd 5405
Hudson, John L 5397
James, Eugene C 5566
Kaplan, Arthur 5558
Karsten, Theodore R 5463
Keating, Daniel J 5422
Kelly, James P 5681
Kierdorf , Herman 5291
Kritch, Joseph 5646, 5676
Linteau, Louis Clark 5427
Leyhan, John E 5442
Lewis, Clinton 5532
Mark , Harold 5697
McKereher, Robert M 5515
Morgan, Arthur 5364
Mundie, James F 5690
Neff , John 5524
Prujanski, Herman 5604
Reading, Garrett 5446
Salinger, Pierre E. G 5508
Schuler, Walter 5705
Scott, Robert P 5579
Snyder, Zigmont 5713
Wadlington, James E 5527
III
IV CONTENTS
EXHIBITS
Introduced Appears oa
on page page
1. Bank record from the Bank of Commonwealth in
Detroit, Mich., in the name of Herman Kierdorf,
showing a loan made to Kierdorf January 24,
1952 5299 5721
2. Bank record from the Bank of Commonwealth in
Detroit, Mich., in the name of Leila Kierdorf,
showing a loan obtained October 24, 1951, in the
amount of $872 5299 5722
3. Employment agreement between Howard C. Craven
Exhibitors Service Co., and John E. Curran,
witnessed by Frank Fitzsimmons, dated Novem-
ber 2, 1944 5354 5723-5725
4. Check dated September 20, 1945, payable to John
Curran in the amount of $500, endorsed by Frank
Fitzsimmons and signed by Howard C. Craven
(special account) 5358 5726
5. Newspaper clipping dated May 10, 1956, from the
Minneapolis Tribune " Hoffa Reads Connelly Out
of Teamsters" 5385 (*)
6. Air-travel ticket showing Mr. Connelly left Minne-
apolis to go to Miami on February 6, 1956 5391 5727
7. Air-travel ticket showing Mr. Dranow left Minne-
apolis to go to Miami on February 8, 1956 5391 5728
8. Waves Hotel bill for Mr. Connellv in the amount of
$77.25 from Februarv 6 through 11, 1956 5393 5729
9. Check No. 90202, dated February 20, 1956, payable
to Waves Hotel, Miami Beach, Fla., and signed
by John W. Thomas & Co 5393 5730
10. Entry in the John Thomas Department Store show-
ing bill for Daranow and the account of George
Cohen in room 301 5393 5731
11. Letters showing Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Gibbons'
relationship toward the payment of fees for Mr.
Connelly in connection with the dynamiting 5394 (*)
12A-D. Letters dated October 7. 1955, one from Einar Mohn,
Sidney L. Brennan, another from Dave Beck to
Sidney Brennan, one of October 13, 1955, from
Sidney Brennan to Gerald Connelly, one dated
October 10, 1955, from Dave Beck to Harlan
DeYoung, relative to Teamsters Local 548 in
Minneapolis, Minn 5395 (*)
13. Statement from Murray's restaurant to local 548
dated September 1955 in the amount of $707.65
for expenses of Mr. Connelly 5395 5732
13A. Individual documents which support the restaurant
bill 5396 (*)
14. Series of checks drawn on Central States Conference
of Teamsters, St. Louis, and signed by James R.
Hoffa, and two checks drawn on Central States
Drivers Council, Chicago, each $5,000, which
were used for lawyer fees on behalf of Mr. Connelly 5404 5733-5742
and others
15. Transcript of the bank account of G. L. Reading
with Detroit Bank showing funds deposited and
withdrawn from April 1954 through August 1957. 5462 5743-5744
16. BUI paid by the Teamsters for William Freedman
(Washington expenses per Bert Brennan), total
$200 5499 5745
17. Check No. 6878, dated February 28, 1955, payable to
William Freedman, in the amount of $200 drawn
on Food & Beverage Drivers Local 337, Detroit- _ 5499 5746
18. Bill dated January 25, 1955, from Hannan, Ganos
& Schwartz, attorneys at law, to Bert Brennan
(for legal services rendered in drafting of bylaws)
in the amount of $100 5500 5747
* May be found in the files of the select committee.
CONTENTS
19. Bill of Bert Brennan from Sunaqua Motel and
Studio Apartments, Hallandale Beach, dated
March 20, 1956, for room rent, $258.96; phone
bill, $42.40; and TV, $13; total $336.36
20. Check No 7739, dated July 12, 1955, payable to
Robert Holmes in the amount of $2,000, drawn on
Food and Beverage Di'ivers Local 337, Detroit,.
21. Check No. 2922, dated January 20, 1953, payable to
Robert Holmes in the amount of $1,000, drawn on
Food and Beverage Drivers Local 337, Detroit. _
22. Check No. 6759, dated February 10, 1955, drawn to
cash in the amount of $2,250, drawn on Food and
Beverage Drivers Local 337, Detroit
23. Check No. 8672, dated March 22, 1955, payable to
Irvin Goldstein in the amount of $1,000, drawn
on Truck Drivers Union No. 299
23A. Check No. 8707, dated March 24, 1955, payable to
Irvin Goldstein, in the amount of $1,000, drawn
on Truck Drivers Union No. 299
24. Memorandum dated September 9, 1955, to all mem-
bers of local 1324, Detroit, notifying them that
local 1324 had been placed under trustship and
that Zigmont Snyder has been removed from
office, signed by Larry Long, International
Brotherhood of Longshoremen, A. F. of L 5513
25. Incorporation paper, dated April 28, 1954, filed in
Detroit, Mich., for a company known as Great
Lakes Cargo Handling Co., showing three officers
or directors, Zigmont Snyder, Samuel Schwartz,
and Philip H. Bornstein 5513
26. Letter dated September 8, 1949, to Carney D.
Matheson from Bert J. Beveridge, vice president,
Commercial Carriers 5553
27. Picture of sign which Mr. Bialkin put up in front of
his place of business, reading, "Fraud, Black-
mail" 5625
28. Picture of sign put up in front of Mr. Bialkin's place
of business, reading, "Let Freedom Ring, Come
In and Ring a Bell" 5625
29. Form letter on Sun Valley, Inc., stationery to pur-
chasers of lots relative to assessments and signed
by Henry Lower, president 5650
29A. Plat of lots in Sun Valley, Fla 5650
30. Article in the Detroit Free Press, Sunday, October
14, 1956, Florida Haven Is Scrub Oak and Dry
Sand, referred to Sun Valley 5651
31. Option for Mr. Hoffa to purchase the project at Sun
Valley for the original cost from Henry Lower-- 5669
32. Affidavit of Omar P. Hewitt, vice president of Flor-
ida National Bank, Orlando, Fla 5674
32A. Memorandum dated November 20, 1956, from C.
Earnest Willard to Byruss Lee, subject: Sun
Valley, Inc 5674
32B. Letter dated March 2, 1956, to W. C. Ford, presi-
dent, Florida National Bank, from Robert E.
McCarthy, manager. Bank of Commonwealth- _ 5674
32C. Memorandum dated June 16, 1956, to Henry
Lower, president, re Sun Valley, Inc., telephone
conversation between Mr. Lower, Mr. Boygan,
and W. C. Ford 5674
33. Memorandum re Sun Valley, Inc., from George S.
Fitzgerald 5681
* May be found in the files of the select committee.
Introduced
on page
Appears on
page
5501
5748
5502
5749
5502
5750
5503
5751
5508
5752
5508
5753
(*)
(*)
5754, 5755
5756
5757
5758
5759
(*)
(*)
(*)
(*)
(*)
(*)
(*)
VI CONTENTS
Introduced Appears on
on page page
34. A series of checks, Nos. 184, 165, 382, 378, 354, 337,
302, 301, 270, 253, 230, 209, which total $40,000,
$15,000 payable to Truck Drivers Local 337 and
$25,000 payable to Truck Drivers Local 299 and
drawn on Byton Steel Corp 5685 (*)
35. Mortgage dated May 6, 1953, between John Bitonti
and Josephine Bitonti and Food & Beverage
Drivers, Warehouse & Helpers Local Union 337__ 5685 (*)
35A. Mortgage dated May 6, 1953, between John Bitonti
and Josephine Bitonti and Truck Drivers Local
299 5685 (*)
36. Police record of John Bitonti 5685 (*)
37. Check No. 1592 dated May 8, 1956, payable to
Harold Mark in the amount of $25,000 drawn on
Truck Drivers Local No. 299 5692 5760
38. Note from the files of Auerbach, Pollak & Richard-
son, headed "James R. Hoflfa" in which check of
$25,000 was refused because it was from union
funds 5692 5761
39. Check dated May 11, 1956, payable to Auerbach,
Pollak & Richardson in the amount of $12,500 and
signed by Harold Mark 5694 5762
40. Ledger account of James R. Hoffa with the Auer-
bach, Pollak & Richardson brokerage firm show-
ing transfer to Mr. Hoffa's account of the $12,500
check 5694 (*)
41. Letter dated May 14, 1956, to Auerbach, Pollak &
Richardson from David H. Wenger authorizing
transfer of account of Harold Mark and David
Wenger to James R. Hoffa 5694 5763
42. AppHcation for new account, applied with Auerbach,
Pollak & Richardson, in the name of James R.
Hoffa 5694 5764
Proceedings of —
September 24, 1957 5287
September 25, 1957 5363
September 26, 1957 5473
September 27, 1957 5579
September 28, 1957 5645
November 5, 1957 5713
* May be found in the files of the select committee.
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN THE Labor or Management Field,
Washington^ D. G.
The select committee met at 2 p. m., pursuant to Senate Resolution
74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room. Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator
Pat JMcNamara, Democrat, Michigan; Senator Karl E. Mund, Repub-
lican, South Dakota.
Also present, Robert F. Kennedy, cliief counsel; Kenneth P.
O'Donnell, assistant counsel; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator;
Carmine S. Bellino, accounting consultant; Ruth Young Watt, chief
cleric.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session : Senators McClellan, McNamara, and Mundt.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
The Chair will make this brief statement. We are beginning this
afternoon a new series of public hearings into the activities of Mr.
James R. Hoffa, chairman of the Central States Conference of Team-
sters, and ninth vice president of the International Brotherhood of
Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen and Helpers of America. At
the conclusion of this committee's hearing into improper activities in
the labor and management field in the New York area, it was an-
nounced that we would hold further inquiries into the activities of
Mr. Hoffa. His lack of candidness, his inability or unwillingness
to cooperate, his unfortunate loss of memory on important facts, have
necessitated intensified work by our staff and the reconvening of the
committee for further hearings.
The committee's clear purpose is determination of the true facts
surrounding the operations, associations, and practices of one of the
most powerful labor leaders in this Nation. On such information
the committee can base its recommendations for future legislative
action. "Wlien there is an effort to obscure the facts, or to gloss over
the facts, or to distort the facts, as occurred before this committee
last month, it becomes the duty of the committee to seek and get the
facts and establish the truth with all the means it has available.
A number of witnesses have been called to appear during this series
of hearings. Their testimony will bear directly on the activities of
Mr. Hoffa. Mr. Hoffa has been invited to come to the hearings and
5287
5288 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
listen to the testimony. Ke has been notified that if he wishes to he
can take the stand and testify.
We have a large number of witnesses to examine. We hope to con-
clude this series of hearings this week. If it appears we are unable
to do so, the committee may hold night sessions in order to finish this
week, or it may conclude to carry on next week.
The committee feels it is important that the information the wit-
nesses have who have been subpenaed to testify be presented as expedi-
tiously as possible. It is hoped that some of the questions raised dur-
ing the recent New York hearings will be answered here in the next
few days. It is also hoped that the witnesses called to testify will have
clear memories and accurate recollections on evidence and facts about
which they will be interrogated and which are of importance to this
committee, to the public, to the rank and file of teamster members, and
to the Congress.
If Mr. Hoffa does not elect to appear voluntarily and there is no
opportunity to call him before the conclusion of this set of hearings,
he will be recalled at a later time this year when we finally conclude
our hearings into his stewardship as a teamster official.
All right. Do my colleagues on the committee have any comment
or any statement to make ?
All right, Mr. Counsel, call your first witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Eoland McMasters, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. McMasters, come arovmd, please, sir.
STATEMENT OF GEORGE FITZGERALD, ATTORNEY, DETROIT, MICH.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair? I am George Fitz-
gerald, Detroit, Mich., and I am an attorney.
Mr. McMasters at the present time is m Providence Hospital, De-
troit, Mich., and I would like to read this into the record if the chair-
man will allow it.
The Chairman. We usually ask to see it. However, you may tell
us what it is.
Mr. Fitzgerald. It is a letter or a certificate from a Dr. Draves in
Detroit.
The Chairman. You may read it.
Mr. Fitzgerald. It is under the letterhead of Edward F. Draves,
M. D., 19647 Joy Eoad, Detroit 26, Mich., September 23, 1957.
Re Mr. Roland McMasters.
To Whom It May Concern:
Dear Sir: The above mentioned was hospitalized at Providence Hospital on
September 21, 1957.
5lr. McMasters has been complaining of pains in the chest and a chronic pro-
ductive cough, sometimes blood tinged. He also had a fainting spell Saturday
morning, vs^ith severe chest pains, so I admitted him into the hospital.
X-ray taken of the chest revealed a resolving lobar pneumonia, and I am
awaiting the results of laboratory tests taken, i. e., fasting blood sugar, E. K. G.
I am in consultation with an internist and neurologist concerning this man's
condition.
Mr. McMasters is still in the hospital.
Very truly yours,
( Signed ) Edward F. Draves, M. D.
I came here prepared to represent Mr. McMasters, and before I left
Detroit I heard of his condition and I asked that I be furnished with
this certificate from Dr. Draves.
' IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5289
The Chairman, All right, sir.
The certificate has been read in the record.
Of course the committee would not knowingly impose on someone
who is really ill and not able to attend. Unfortunately these things
happen, even in courts. Sometimes the trial is set for hearing and
some witness, or some important witness becomes ill. We have to
defer to those problems.
Mr. McMasters is an important witness. His testimony will be
desired. We hope he will soon recover, and we would like for counsel
to keep the committee advised as to his progress.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I will advise Mr. Kennedy.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
I might say that we have a report or a claim of two other witnesses
who are very important, and I wonder if you could give us any infor-
mation on them? They are Mr. Henry Lower, and Mr. Benjamin
Dranow. Do you represent either of those two gentlemen ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I represent neither of those men, and I have no
knowledge of them or what their condition is.
The Chairman. They were interviewed a few days ago by the staff,
and following the interview they both decided they had pains, and
maybe they have. I do not know. Of course, as the Chair has an-
nounced, if one is really ill, if proper medical counsel advises that he
should not be subjected to examination and interrogation, this com-
mittee will respect that character of a situation. But the committee
will try to guard against being imposed on by any false claims or any
device of that nature simply to evade testifying.
Now, proceed.
Senator Mundt. May I add that this morning, early, in Minne-
apolis, where I was making my plane connection, there was a news-
paper account stating that one of our Minneapolis witnesses, and I
am not sure whether it was one of the ones you named or not, was
incapacitated and ill, and that some doctor, who preferred that his
name not be known, said he was ill. I think that we should at least
verify this to the extent of having doctors who are not anonymous
check on the health of our prospective witnesses.
Mr. Fitzgerald, I would like to say, if I may, Mr, Chairman, that
I told Mr, Kennedy during the past 3 weeks that anyone connected
with the teamsters union in Detroit that he wished to interview, he
would interview without a subpena. I might say that all of these
men appeared before the counsel or before anyone designated by him.
I might say further that those men that came down with me came
down without subpena.
I might say further that every book and record tliat has been avail-
able in the city of Detroit has been turned over to this committee.
I realize that at times there may be situations where the committee
might be imposed upon, but I want to assure the committee that if it
was our intention, or my intention, to impose at all upon the com-
mittee we would not be extending the cooperation to the committee
staff that we have tried to extend during the past month.
This is an unfortunate thing with regard to Mr. McMasters, and
we even had an airline ticket for him.
The Chairman. In this instance, of course, Mr. McMasters has
given a certificate as to his condition, which we have accepted.
5290 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
We have another witness that we sought to interview, or did inter-
view, and I believe the staff did.
Pardon me. I guess we haven't been able to interview him.
I believe he is connected with the teamsters, Mr. Zigmont Snyder.
Do you have any information about him ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I explained to Mr. Kennedy that since I was ad-
vised you wanted Mr. Zigmont Snyder I transmitted that information
to the officials of the union. Mr. Fitzsimmons, the vice president of
local 299, is here and he will explain the situation with regard to
Snyder.
I was instructed by Mr. Hoffa that all of those people, as counsel in
his absence, that all of the people who were employed by the team-
sters union in Detroit should appear here with or without subpena,
if they were called upon.
I so instructed — or attempted, at least, to instruct Snyder. Snyder
has been unavailable. Snyder has listened to no summons, and I am
told by Mr. Fitzsimmons, who will tell this committee under oath,
that because of his actions in avoiding his appearance here, if he did,
or at least in his actions in avoiding any contact with my office, Mr.
Snyder will no longer be an employee, and he is no longer an em-
ployee of the teamsters union.
The Chairman. You do not know where we can reach him by sub-
pena, I suppose.
j\Ir. Fitzgerald. I do not.
The Chairman. I believe the subpena has been out for him now
about a week or longer.
Mr. Fitzgerald. If I kncAv any place to get Mr. Snyder I would
tell you, because we have attempted to get him to contact me so that
I could tell him that he was wanted down here. As a matter of fact,
I tried to get Mr. Snyder to come down and make a statement to Mr.
Pierre Salinger, an informal statement, or an interview.
So we have no more responsibility for Mr. Snyder.
Mr. IvENNEDY. What is Mr. Snyder's position with the teamsters?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I believe he is a business agent.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you aware of the fact that while he is a busi-
ness agent for the teamsters he was operating a nonunion shop of his
own?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I know nothing about Mr. Snyder.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any information regarding his business
deals?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I have none at all. My contact with Mr. Snyder
has been very meager, as I advised you in Detroit.
Mr, Kennedy. Were you aware of the circumstances surrounding
his entrance into the teamsters union ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. No, I am not.
Mr. Kennedy. That he was brought in by Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't know. I honestly don't know anything
about Mr, Snyder.
I know, however, that he is connected with the teamsters union, and
I have never had any business dealings with the gentleman, to my
knowledge.
Tlie Chairman. All right, then, let us see. Mr. McMasters is not
available. The other two — had you expected to call Mr. Lower or Mr.
Dranow today ?
IMPROPER ACnVITIEiS EN" THE LABOR FIELD 5291
Mr. Kennedy. No, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman, Mr. Snyder, of course, has not been found. We
will have to pursue our effort to locate him and subpena him.
Mr. Counsel, you will proceed and make every effort to locate Mr.
Snyder and have a subpena served on him ?
Is there anything further with Mr. Fitzgerald ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I think I have some more witnesses here.
The Chairman. I was asking if you had any other questions.
Thank you very much.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Herman Kierdorf .
The Chairman. Will you be sworn ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate Select Committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN KIEEDORF, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, GEORGE S. FITZGERALD
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and bus-
iness or occupation, please.
Mr. Kjerdorf. My name is Herman Kierdorf. My residence is
29068 Spoon Avenue, Madison Heights, Mich. I am the business rep-
resentative of the Teamsters Joint Council 43 of Detroit.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Chairman, may I intrude for a moment? I
am sorry. I have a statement from one of the witnesses who will ap-
pear later, Mr. Owen B. Brennan. I have it here. In conformity — I
think he will be called tomorrow — with the rules of the Select Com-
mittee, I wanted to file it timely. I can hold it as long as you have it
here.
The Chairman. You may give it to the clerk at this time. That is
a prepared statement, I understand, which the witness will desire to
read when he testifies.
Mr. Fitzgerald. It is a statement and a question, perhaps. I wanted
to be technically correct.
The Chairman. All right. It may be submitted.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I am sorry.
The Chairman. It is all right.
Mr. Kierdorf, do you have counsel? Is Mr. Fitzgerald your
counsel ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I do, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Fitzgerald, let the record show, represents the
witness.
Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. You are a business representative of the joint
council ?
Mr. Kjerdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Joint council 43 in Detroit ?
Mr. Kjerdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is the head of the joint council ?
Mr. Kierdorf. James Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. He is president of the joint council ?
5292 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You Were hired by him ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been business representative ?
Mr. IviERDORF. Nine years.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Since 1948 ?
Mr. KiERDORF. 1948 ; yes, sir.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. Prior to that you were doing what ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Prior to 1948, sir ?
Mr. Kennedy. 1948.
Mr. Kierdorf. 1948 ; I was in the Ohio Penitentiary for 6 years.
Mr. Kennedy. And prior to that ?
Mr. I^jerdorf. Prior to that — if the committee please, I had made
a few notations on my way here.
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately 1940, what were you doing, or dur-
ing that period, before you went to the Ohio Penitentiary ?
(No response.)
Mr. Kennedy. What did you go to the Ohio Penitentary for ?
Mr. Kierdorf. For armed robbeiy.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were there for 6 years ?
Mr. Kjerdorf. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy, Did you come out of the Ohio Penitentiary as a
business representative of the joint council ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Within about a month after I was released.
Mr. Ivennedy. You went right to see Mr. Iloffa ; did you ?
Mr. Kjerdorf. I tried to get jobs at different places of employment,
and I was unable to do so, and having been in the union as a union-
man since 1907, I approached Mr. Hoffa for emplojanent. I talked
to him and under my promise to him that I would behave myself and
conduct myself as a scholar and gentleman he gave me the opportunity
to go to work.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. Had you had any difficulty with the law prior to
the time that you went to the Ohio Penitentiary ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes.
Mr. KJENNEDY. "^Yliat was that in connection with ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That was in connection with the charge of imper-
sonating a Federal officer.
Mr. Ivennedy. That was in the 1930's ; was it ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Chairman, I wonder
Mr. Kierdorf. They don't bother me.
Mr. Fitzgerald. They don't bother you ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, Mr. Counsel, I made a few notes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is fine.
Mr. Kierdorf. I tried to refresh my memory on all these dates, and
if it is permissible
The (^HAiRMAN. It is permissible for you to refer to any memo-
randum you may have made or any document you may have in your
possession.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead. Yon have the dates there on what you
have been doing since 1940 or prior to that time.
Mr. Kjerdorf. In
Mr. Kennedy. Let us go back first when you were impersonating
a Federal officer. What date was that ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5293
Mr. IvTERDORF. I don't say that these are exact dates, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. No ; approximate.
Mr. KiERDORF. They are approximate. I had no records to check
from. It was approximately in 1932 or 1933. 1931 or 1932 I served
a year in Leavenworth Penitentiary. I believe it was in 1932.
Mr. Kennedy. After that what did you do ?
Mr. Kierdorf. After that I was paroled and went to work in the
Kelvinator Co. in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. For how long a period of time ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Approximately a year and a half.
Mr. Kennedy. Following that ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Pardon ?
Mr. Kennedy. Following that ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Following that I was employed in a bar in a night-
club on the Six Mile Road, the Marquette Gardens, until approxi-
mately 1935.
In 1935 — I believe it was in 1937 — I went to work for the Linwood
Chevrolet Co. as a salesman. I attempted to organize the salesmen
of the automobile companies and in 1937 Frank Martel took me over
and I was made an international organizer for the UAW-CIO.
In 1940—1 believe it was in 1940, 1939 or 1940—1 was with the
teamsters union. From 1938 to 1940, 1 believe.
Mr. Kennedy. From 1938 to 1940 you were with the teamsters ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. In what position ?
Mr. Kierdorf. As a business representative.
Mr. Kennedy. Who hired you ^
Mr. Kierdorf. Mr. Sam Hirst, who was then the head of the joint
comicil that Mr. Hoffa is in charge of now. Ray Bennett was the
receiver for the local. The local was in receivership at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. And subsequently after that ?
Mr. Kierdorf. After that I left the teamsters in 1940 and I was
back selling automobiles on my own, buying up used cars, and so
forth, and I went into Akron, Ohio, and while there I was arrested
for robbery, armed, of some department store. My nephew was with
me at the time. We were apprehended there, and I went to trial.
I was convicted. But under perjured testimony of a police lieutenant
as the transcript of the trial will show, and upon which I was par-
doned out of the Ohio Penitentiary.
Mr. Kennedy. What is your nephew's name ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Frank Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. What is he ?
Mr. Kierdorf. He is a business representative of the local in Flint,
Mich., 332, 1 believe it is.
Mr. Kennedy. He went to work for the teamsters, too, when he got
out of prison ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he know Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No ; I introduced him to Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. You recommended him to him ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That he be employed.
Mr. Kennedy. So when he got out of the prison he also went to
AYork as a business agent for the teamsters ; is that correct ?
5294 IMPROPEK ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Had you been arrested other than for impersonat-
ing a Federal officer, and for this armed robbery ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes; I was. I was arrested for the John LaBatt
-kidnaping and found not guilty.
Mr. Kennedy. That was in Canada.
Mr. KiERDOKF. Yes. I was arrested and waived extradition and
went to trial and was acquitted.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you been arrested in connection with armed
robbery before ?
Mr. KiERDORF. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Just these three arrests ?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What services do you perform for the joint council?
Wliat are your duties ?
Mr. KiERDORF. I attend meetings and I help organize and help dif-
ferent organizations wherever I am assigned to help in an organiza-
tional drive of any sort, or attend any meetings of any kind or
anywhere in Michigan. I am mostly confined to Detroit a,t the
present time.
Senator McNamara. You made the statement some time along the
line that — "Martel took me over and I became an organizer for
UAW-CIO." There seems to be some inconsistency there. What is
the explanation ? Martel was not connected with the UAW-CIO.
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct, but he was very friendly with
Homer Martin, who at that time was the international president of
CIO. ^Vlien I attempted to organize the automobile salesmen, I
went to the AFL, Frank Martel having been a member of the AFL
since 1907, to apply for a charter. He advised me that it was out of
his jurisdiction and that he would take me over and introduce me to
Martin
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Senator McNamara. I think you have answered my question.
Mr. IvjERDORF. He took me over there and introduced me and I
went to work.
Senator McNamara. I wanted to know Martel's connection. Ap-
parently you went to him and he turned you over to Homer Martin.
Mr. KiERDORF. That is right.
Senator McNamara. That straightened me out.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Are you familiar in your organizational work with
Mr. Nathan Shefferman ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Pardon ?
Mr. KJENNEDY. Are you familiar with the firm or individual known
as Mr. Nathan Shefferman ?
Mr. KiERDORF. I am not familiar with Nathan Shefferman but I
am familiar with the official of his union in Detroit.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. KiERDORF. Labor relations, I am sorry.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio is that ?
Mr. KiERDORF. George Kamenow.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you first meet Mr. Kamenow ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Approximately 3 years ago, sir. I am not certain.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that in connection with any work that you
were doing?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5295
Mr. KiERDOKF. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that in connection with Charley's Oldsmobile?
Mr. IviERDORF. Yes — no ; that was not the first time I met him. It
escapes me just tlie first time I met him. I knew he was a labor rela-
tions man and I had forgotten just what place I was organizing at the
time where he was. I would have to look it up.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you find that out for us ?
Mr. KiERDGRF. I can, sir, yes. I will check back.
Mr. KJENNEDY. You did run into him in connection with Charley's
Oldsmobile ?
Mr. KxERDORF. I did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And with any companies other than the first one ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes. Later on he was the labor relations counsel
for Joe May Chevrolet.
Mr. IvENNEDY. And you were trying to organize that company?
Mr. Klerdgrf. I did organize them.
Mr. Kennedy. JMr. Kamenow was Mr. Shefferman's representative
in Michigan ; is that right ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I understand that. I am not positive. I under-
stand they called themselves the Chicago Labor Relations and I was
under the supposition he was working for Mr. Shefferman. I heard
that. If it is technically true I couldn't vouch for it.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You made some stringent efforts to organize Char-
ley's Oldsmobile ; did you ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And they held an election up there ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. And they decided to go with the teamsters ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. I^JENNEDY. Is that shop organized at the present time ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No ; it isn't.
Mr. ICJENNEDY. What happened?
Mr. Kierdorf. We organized, and in the process of organizing Ave
had a slight majority of the members who became members of the
union. Charley — I was going to say his last name — refused to nego-
tiate a contract or speak to us to try to recognize the union as the bar-
gaining agency. So we struck them and put a picket line. We had a
picket line for 3 or 4 or 5 days when he told us to contact his labor
relations counsel, who was Mr. George Kamenow. George Kamenow,
I stated to Charley at that time, if he wants to see us, come out, I am
busy on the picket line, to come out there. He came out and wanted
to know what did we want. Under what conditions would we settle.
I stated at that time we wanted the usual contract that was in effect
with the other automobile dealers tliat were organized, and he says at
that time they were in a very stringent financial status in Charley's.
That if he could convince Charley to sign a recognition contract, if
we would give him 60 days in which to negotiate for wages, hours,
and working conditions.
We agreed to that and in the meantime as is the usual procedure
with these people, they not only coerced, but wined and dined their
membership until they were ready to sign a contract they again refused.
When we counted noses they discharged some, some of the boys quit,
and after about 90 days we did not have enough membership to strike
the place, or have a majority.
5296 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. You say he discharged some of the workers ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be an unfair Labor practice.
Mr. KiERDORF. It was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you bring a claim of unfair labor practice ?
Mr. KiERDORF. We had no place to go. The NLRB refused jurisdic-
tion over the automobile dealers at that time. I believe when we
started to organize they were under $25,000 interstate commerce before
they were eligible. As we petitioned them, they raised it to $50,000,
and then to $100,000, and then they refused jurisdiction over all the
automobile dealers.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know by whom in Charley's Oldsmobile Mr.
Kamenow was hired ?
Mr. KiERDORF. No ; I do not, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. But he did not come into the situation until after
you had gone on strike ; is that right ?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. This plant has never been organized up to the pres-
ent time ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Xo ; it has not, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever gone out socially with Mr. Kamenow ?
Mr. KiERDORF. No, sir.
j\Ir. Kennedy. You have not ?
Mr. KiERDORF. No, sir : I had lunch with the gentleman once or twice
during the negotiations of Joe May. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know of any payment or any gift that he
ever made to any union official ?
Mr. KiERDORF. To any union official ? No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Kennedy. You have made a loan to Mr. Hoff a, have you not ?
Mr. KiERDORF. I did. sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you make the loan to Mr. Hoff a ?
Mr. KiERDORF. I believe it was in December 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us the circumstances under which
you loaned the money to him ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes. He asked me if I had any available cash and I
said I did.
Mr. Kennedy. In what way did he ask you this ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Pardon ?
Mr. Kennedy. Where did he ask you this ?
Mr. KiERDORF. In the union hall. I don't know if it was in his
office. I believe it was in his office or if he came down to the BA's
room.
Mr. Kennedy. When was this, approximately ?
Mr. KiERDORF. In December, I think, 1952, some time in December.
I know it was before Christmas, because my wife and I were going
to Florida over the holidays and I was unable to do so because I gave
the money to Mr. Holi'a. I had enough, but I could not spare to take
the holiday at the time, either.
Mr. Kennedy. He just came up to you and said have you any cash?
Mr. KiERDORF. He asked me, ''Have you any cash tliat you are not
using that is available," and I said, "What for," and he said, "'I would
like to borrow some." I said, "How much?" He said, "How much
can you spare?" I said, "Approximately $2,000. If you need more
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5297
I will get it for you. I will borrow it myself, or I will get it." He
said, "Now, that will help me. That will be all right." I gave him
the $2,000 next day.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know what he wanted the money for?
Mr. KlERDORF. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell him it was this little pile you put aside
for the Christmas trip?
Mr. KiERDORF. No ; I told him if he wanted I would get it, and if
he needed any more I would get that for him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go to the bank to get the money ?
Mr. Kierdori'\ No : I had it at home.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have it hidden at home ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No ; not hidden. I said I had it at home.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you keep your cash at home ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I do. Lots of times I keep a check or two. I earn
enough money so I can save approximately half my salary.
Mr. Kennedy. And you keep that at home ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Until I pay some bills by check to have a receipt,
then I go down and make a deposit.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have a bank account?
Mr. Kierdorf. 1 do.
Mr. Kennedy. But in addition to that you keep large sums of money
at liome in cash.
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes ; sometimes I have some money. I wouldn't say
large. In my humble circumstances they are large, two, three, four
thousand dollars I accumulate at different times.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you keep that in a box at home ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you write a check out for Mr. Hoffa?
Wh}^ did you bring him cash ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Because I had the cash at home. It was just a loan
and instead of going to the bank and writing a check I gave it to him
in cash.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get a note f i-om him ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he pay any interest?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Up until the time that we interviewed you out in
Detroit, he had not paid you back.
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he paid you back since ?
Mr. Kierdorf. He has, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When did he pay you back ?
Mr. Kierdorf. He paid me Dack Friday morning. Friday morn-
ing.
Senator Mundt. Was that last Friday ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he give you a check ?
Mr. Kierdorf. He didn't ; he wasn't there. I walked into 299 office
and Frankie Collins, the secretary-treasurer, said that Herb Gros-
berg wanted to see me at half past 10. I said, "What about?" And
lie said, "I don't know." I thouglit it was maybe in reference to this
committee, or other matters, and when I arrived I said, "Do you want
80330— 57— pt. 14 2
5298 IMPROPER ACTrvrriES est the labor field
me, Herb?" And lie said, "Yes. Here is that check for $2,000 that
Hoffa owes you," and I said, "Thank you; does he need it?" And
he said, "No ; and he told me to pay 3- ou," which he did
Mr. Kennedy. Now, during the period when you loaned him this
money at the end of 1952, were you in debt at that time yourself ?
Mr. KiERDORF. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. "Well, according to the records that we have, on
October 24, 1951, you borrowed $872, and on January 24, 1952, you
borrowed $1,326. You had made repayments on both of those loans,
but at the time you made the loan to Jimmy Hoffa you owed $954
on those 2 loans. You owed $954 at the time you were loaning $2,000
to Mr. Hoffa in cash.
Mr. KiERDORF. Well, now, to the best of my recollection, sir, I don't
remember those loans. I told you in Detroit that after I borrowed
the money from Hoffa that I had borrowed $1,500 from the local.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. There were two loans that were made by your wife,
Mrs. Kierclorf ?
Mr. KiERDORF. My wife ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. KiERDORF. No, sir; my wife never borrowed any money from
the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Not from the union, I am not talking about the union.
I am talking about from the bank, at this time you had outstanding
loans through your wife of $954.
Mr. KiERDORF. My wife?
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
Mr. KiERDORF. Not that I know of. She never borrowed any money.
Mr. Kennedy. What is your wife's name ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Leila Kierdorf .
Mr. Kennedy. Is that spelled L-e-i-1-a?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct, usually called "Lila," but that is the
correct spelling.
The Chairman. The Chair presents to you a photostatic copy of a
bank record recording a loan made to you in February of 1952, I
believe.
Mr. Kennedy. One is October 24, 1951, and the one to him is
January 24, 1952.
The Chairman. January 24, 1952 ; that is correct.
It shows a loan to you on January 24, 1952, from the Bank of Com-
monwealth, in Detroit, Mich. I ask you to examine it and state if you
recognize that as a statement of your account, and the loan that you
made with the bank.
(Document handed to witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf. I don't recognize this, sir, but the best recollection
that I can have— this is on Herman Kierdorf, and that might be the
notes that were due on the car that I bought my wife. That is a loan
on an Oldsmobile.
The Chairman. Do you recall having secured that loan from the
bank?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes, on the car ; yes, sir, I do.
The Chairman. All right. What does it show you owed on that
loan in December of 1952 ? What does the bank statement show you
owed on it 2
IMPROPER ACTIVrTIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5299
Mr. KiERDORF. The top figure is $1,326, sir.
The CnAiRMAN. I think that you had made payments down to De-
cember of 1952, if you will look down there to December of 1952. I
think it shows you the balance there.
Mr. KiERDORF. $666.
The Chairman. $666 ?
Mr. KxERDORF. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That document may be made exhibit No. 1 for this
series of hearings.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 1," for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5721.)
The Chairman. I now present to you a similar document, a photo-
static copy of your wife's bank account at the same bank, begmning
with October 24, 1951, where, apparently, a loan was obtained in the
amount of $872, and I will ask you to examine that document and see
if you identify it.
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes ; that was another car. That was the Chevrolet
that was bought before I traded it in for the Oldsmobile.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit No. 2, and you may state
what was the balance that your wife owed on that obligation in
December of 1952.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 2," for refer-
ence, and will be found in the appendix on p. 5722.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. KiERDORF. On what date was that. Senator ?
The Chairman. December of 1952, at the time you loaned Mr. Hoffa
$2,000.
Mi\ KiERDORF. That is $240 ?
It was $240, sir.
The Chairman. That was $240 ?
Mr, KiERDORF. That is correct.
The Chairman. That would make a total, then, that you both owed
to the bank at the time you made the loan to Mr. Hoffa, if my calcula-
tions are correct, of $906. Is that correct ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Those are the figures, I will agree, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. We used the figure up above, which was made prior
to the time of the loan, Mr. Chairman. Either one is fine.
The Chairman. It is round numbers, over $900.
Proceed.
Mr, Kennedy. So that at the time that you made the loan of $2,000
in cash you had outstanding loans of your own, you and your wife,
of some $900, or over $900 ; is that correct ?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
Mr. Ivennedy. Subsequently, you say Mr. Hoffa paid you back last
Friday ?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
Mr, Kennedy. Since the time that you loaned the $2,000 to him,
up until last Friday, did you borrow money yourself ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes.
Do you mean from the time I loaned the money ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes, I borrowed $1,500 from the union at one time,
while he owed me the $2,000.
5300 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, Kexxedy. "What union did you borrow from i
]Mr. KiERDORF. 299.
Mr. Kexxedy. Xow, that is the union -which Mr. Iloti'u is president
of?
Mr, KiERDORF. That is correct,
ISIr. Kexxedy. So ^[r. Ilott'a had to sign the check?
^[r. KiERDorvF. AVell, ves.
Mr, Kexx-^edy, You Ment to Mr. Ilolfa and asked if you coukl bor-
row $1,500 from the union?
Mr. KiEuix^RF. That is correct.
Mr. Kexxedy. Did Mr. Ilotfa say, "Well, Herman, I will give you
your $-2,000 back" ?
Mr. KiERixtRF, No, he did not.
;Mr. Kexxedy. He didn't mention that?
^Ir. KiERDOPvF. He did not,
!Mr. Kexxedy. He just said *T will get you $1,500 from the union"?
Mr. KiERDORF. He asked me what I wanted it for, and I said I was
short of ready cash because I had given my son some money, and
I needed the money, and he said "O. K."
Mr, Kexxedy, Did he mention at all about paying you back?
Mr, KiERDORF. Xo, he did not, sir.
Mr. Kexxedy. Has he mentioned, up until Inst Friday, about pay-
ing you back the $2,000 which you say you loaned him?
Mr. IviERix^RF. He has asked me at numerous times before last Fri-
day. "Are you holden or are you short" — I am speaking in the ver-
nacular — and I would say, "Xo. I am all right," I never asked him
for the money,
^Ir, IvEX'XEDY. He must have known you were a little short in
September 17, 1956, when you borrowed $1,500 from tlie union.
5lr. KiERix>RF. That is connect.
Mr. IvExxEDY. Didn't he, at that time — he didn't liave t-o ask you
if you were short, he knew then ^
Mr. KiERDORF, That is correct,
'Sir. Kexxedy, Did he come to you with the $2,000 ?
Mr, KiERix^RF. He did not,
Mr. Kexxedy, Xot until last Friday ?
^Ir, KiERDORF, That is correct.
^Ir, Kex'X'edy. Did you borrow any other money from the union ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Xo, sir.
'Sir. Kexxedy. How about on August 10, 1955. did you borrow
$1,000 from the union then ?
Mr. KiERDc^RF, I may have, if you have the record there,
Mr. Kexxedy. So you borrowed $1,500 ?
Mr. KiERDORF. I paid it back. Would you like to have me explain
why I borrow money from the union ?
Mr. Kexx'edy. What I am primarily interested in is your conver-
sations with Mr. Hoti'a. First, on August 10. 1955, when you went to
borrow $1,000 you went to Mr. Hotla and you asked if you could bor-
row $1,000. and what conversations you had with him about the $2,000
that he owed you ,
Mr. KiERDORF, Xone whatsoever, sir.
Mr. Kexx'fj>y. He just said. "I will approve local 299 loaninff you
$1,000" > J . I'F «J
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 5301
Mr. Kexxedy. He diclii't mention about the $2,000 that he owed
you \
Mr. KiERDOKF. He did not.
Mr. Kexxedy. Is that right ?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Was this during the same period of time he was ask-
ing yon if you were short ?
^\x. KiERDORF. Yes; at different tim^^s. I wouldn't say it was right
at the same week, or the same month, but different periods.
Mr. Kexxedy. Then September 17, 1956, another Sl.oOO from the
local?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
Mr. Kexxedy. Xow, were you borrowing any other money from
banks, or any other people, during this period of time ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes.
Senator Muxdt. I wonder if I could have the attention of Mr. Fitz-
gerald \ Under the rules of our committee, sir, as counsel to the wit-
ness you have every right to respond to any suggestions he makes to
you, and any requests for counsel, but you are not to be whispering to
him and suggesting testimony to him. Xow, I grant — just a moment,
please — that when ^Ir. Hoffa was here we leaned over backward in our
latitude to let you and Mr. Hoffa discuss matters and we did not hold
you to the rules of the committee, but at the end we did not come out
very well. I believe rnaybe we ought to try it now by sticking strictly
to the rules of the committee which hold that when the witness seeks
your counsel you should give it, but you should not volunteer it.
I suggest to the chairman that we tiy it now in conformity with
the rules of the committee.
The C'HAiRiiAx. The Chair will always enforce the rules of the
committee. I think there are times when some latitude may be shown
if the witness is actually searching or seeking to refresh his memory
so that he can be more accurate.
The Chair would have no objection to that.
But it is certainly a violation of the rules and very improper for
counsel to simply undertake to testify for the witness. I do not be-
lieve ^Ir. Fitzgerald has violated the rule, and I think that he has been
trying to be cooperative.
But if there is any evidence of it, the Chair will act very promptly.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I would like to say for Mr. Mundt's benefit, if I
applied the rules as strict as he did during the past month when I
was cooperating with this committee, I dont think we would have
all of the materials that you have at this time. I don't want to take
advantage or impose on anybody, but I would like the record to be
straight that I didn't come here, Mr. Chairman, to suggest anything
to these witnesses.
The Chair^iax. The Chair has stated that he has seen or observed
nothing improper on the part of counsel. I do regard rules as some-
thing to be observed and, of course, the necessity for the rules to pre-
vent counsel from simply, in effect, testifying for the witness or put-
ting words in the witne.^' mouth.
I may suggest this, and I think we will have no further trouble,
that when the witness thinks the coimsel has some information as
to dates or something, if you will ask permission, the Chair will grant
it for vou to consult with him.
5302 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
As to your legal rights, you are at liberty to consult with your
counsel at any time to ask him as to your legal rights, and the Chair
will respect that right,
Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Mr. KiERDORF. May I speak to counsel ?
The Chairman. You may.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kjennedy. Mr. Kierdorf, from the time that you allegedly
loaned the $2,000 to Mr. Hoffa at the end of 1952 until he paid you last
Friday, you made the two loans from the union, one of $1,000 and one
of $1,500, is that right?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And these were both approved by Mr. Hoffa him-
self?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you made any other loans?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes. I loaned $1,000 from the Manufacturers Na-
tional Bank in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. AVhen was that?
Mr. Kierdorf. Well, approximately a year ago.
Mr. Ivenxedy. Was that on October 30, 1956 ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I couldn't say the exact date, sir, and if you have
it, it is approximately correct.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be the loan that you are talking about ?
ISIr. Kierdorf. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. $1,000, on October 30, 1956 ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I believe that was correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, if you needed that $1,000, why didn't you go
to Mr. Hoffa and get the $2,000 back ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Well, for the simple reason that I knew that Jimmy
needed the money, and you must take into consideration that when I
came out of the penitentiary that this gentleman gave me a job and
he also gave me some money so that I could get along for a week or
two until I was receiving my pay, and that I am very, very much
under his obligation for being able to straighten myself out and go to
work, and behave myself, and obtain the kind of a position that I have
at the present time. Any time that he wants anything from me, I am
willing to go to the bank and I am willing to take any reserve cash I
have and give it to him. I am very, very grateful to Jimmy Hoffa
for doing what he did for me.
Mr. Kennedy. Certainly he was getting a greater salary from the
union than you were.
Mr. Kierdorf. That is sure.
Mr. I&:nnedy. And he had other business deals going at the same
time ; did he not ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I presume he has, and being a recipient of a great
deal more salary than I am, I am under the supposition that he also
has greater expenses than I have.
Mr. Kennedy. He had that trucking company going. Test Fleet,
which he and Mr. Brennan made some $125,000 in 5 or 6 years.
Mr. Kierdorf. Of those things, and I am being honest with you, I
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5303
don't know. I have never meddled into any affairs, on account of my
previous reputation. I went out and did my work, and I didn't put
in or seek any information of what was going on at any time. I was
very grateful to do my work, and stay out of trouble, and stay out of
any controversies, and I have done so for the past 9 years.
Mr. Kennedy. But you never went to him and asked him to get the
money back?
Mr. KiERDOPiF. No; I know the man, and I know that his word is
good, and at any time if he had the money to spare, he would pay me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you borrow any other money, in addition to the
$1,000 from the bank ?
Mr. KiERDORF. I don't remember, Mr. Kennedy. If you have a rec-
ord there, I will be glad to say. I might have, over a period of years.
Mr. Kj:nnedy. We have a record here, and I will read it to you,
and then you let me know if you think there are any corrections.
Mr. KiERDORF. I will be glad to.
Mr. Kennedy. That at the time you made the loan as I have stated,
you had loans outstanding of your own, of some $954 ; that on July
10, 1953, you borrowed $776.25 from the Bank of Commonwealth.
That is the Bank of Commonwealth. On April 2, 1954, $525 ; and on
September 23, 1954, $472.50; on September 24, 1954, $525; on April
5, 1955, $535; on May 2, 1955, $2,602.56; on October 28, 1955, $270;
on February 4, 1956, $535 ; on November 26, 1956, $535 ; on January
29, 1957, $1,548; on September 17, 1957, $537; on October 31, 1955,
from the Manufacturers National Bank, $795 ; and then this loan that
you have already mentioned on October 30, 1956, of $1,060.
Then 2 loans that vou have mentioned, from the union, on August
10, 1955, of $1,000, and on September 17, 1956, $1,500.
Does that sound correct to you ?
Mr. KiERDORr. It probably is, if I could go over the entire thing.
If 5^ou have them there I will agree that they are true, Mr. Kennedy,
because I know that you wouldn't have them if they weren't correct.
But probably they were loans that I had borrowed for the missus'
car, and so forth, and at different times I loaned my sons money, and
if I may speak in the vernacular, I am a fast man with a dollar, as
they say. I know what adversity is, and I have helped a lot of people
in my time, and I still do it. I could have paid cash for my missus'
car, and instead of that, if my recollection is correct, my son in Sagi-
naw needed $1,000, and he was getting married. I keep enough cash
at home, and with my salary, I am able to pay off these notes, and it
is like putting money in the bank for me, and I always have a bit of
reserve for my sons or my friends, or whoever may need any help
from me ; if they are decent people, I give it to them.
Mr. Kennedy. From the time tliat you loaned Mr. Hoffa $2,000 in
cash, you borrowed from various sources some $13,214.31.
Mr. KiERDORF. That could be true, if you have the figures there. I
know they must be true, but it seems like an awful lot of money to me
right now, all in a lump. It probably didn't at the time I was borrow-
ing $500 here and $1,000 there, and so on and so forth. If you have
the figures, I will agree to them.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any other source of income, or have you
had any other source of income other than your union employment?
Mr. KiERDORF. No, sir, not a quarter.
5304 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. In the last time, since you got out of the penitentiary ?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct ; I have kept my nose clean.
Mr. Kennedy. How about the jewelry business? Have you been
in that ?
Mr. KiERDORF. My son was in the jewelry business, and used my
name, and that cost me a few thousand dollars, too, until he found
out he wasn't right handed or left handed.
Mr. Kennedy. He was using your name ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes. Jack Kierdorf & Son.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know he was using your name ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Absolutely.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't get anything from it ?
Mr. KiERDORF. No, I paid out, and it cost me money.
Mr. Kennedy. What does your son do ?
Mr. KiERDORF. He is a rigger.
Mr. Kennedy. He is in the riggers union ?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he involved in any difficulty with the law?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes. In the fight of a strike, and that is all. Just a
short time ago at Grand Blanc, when there was a big fracas up there
between the two unions over jurisdiction or whatever it may have been,
he was in that fight.
Mr. IvENNEDY. He received some kind of sentence?
Mr. KiERDORF. He received probation.
Mr. Kennedy. The riggers union went up with pipes to beat
the
Mr. KiERDORF. I Avasn't there and I don't know what happened. I
don't know why they should have went up with pipes, because their
tools of trade are such that they don't need to go up with pipes. They
have spud wrenches, the same as other building trades.
Mr. Kennedy. Did j^our son tell you anything about it ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I asked him what occurred. He said there was a
melee. These men tried to keep them from going to work. I believe
his union was in the right about the jurisdiction, and I understand
that the proprietor of the firm at that time or the superintendent
asked the people that started the fight to stop the agitating and let the
men do their work. I believe the riggers were willing to go to work
and do their work but these fellows tried to stop them, so a fight
ensued.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Did you sell any jewelry to Mr. Lower of Sun
Valley?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You were in the jewelry business ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I would not say that. I had a diamond ring and he
admired it, and I sold it to him. That is all the jewelry business I
done with him. I sold it to him and didn't make a penny profit,
because my son being in the jewelry business and buying things, I was
in a position to buy this ring at wholesale. After I bought it, I didn't
have any use for it, and it was just money tied up. He admired it for
some time and he asked me would you sell it and I said, yes. He said,
how much? I believe it was — I am not positive — $980 or $1,100 or
something like that.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you buy the ring ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5305
Mr. KiERDORF. I bought it off Leo Frank & Sons, jewelers, in the
Metropolitan Building in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever made any loans from Mr. Frank ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Have I ? No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What has been your business relationship with
Mr. Frank?
Mr. KiERDORF. Just the buying — friends of mine wanted a watch or
ring or anything, I can get it at a wholesale price approximately and
I do so.
Mr. Kennedy. Jewelry for your friends ?
Mr. KiERDORF. That is right. In fact, I have two watches in my
pocket right now my friends give me for repair. Coming down here
I have not been able to get them in the jewelry shop for them, just as
a favor.
Mr. Kennedy. You bring them to Leo Frank ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes. No, these I take to a watch repairman in the
Metropolitan Building by the name of Tennenbaum who does the
work for the jewelers. I get a discount on the price there. I get the
same price that the retail jeweler would pay for repairing. It saves
my friend 2 or 3 dollars on the cleaning or repairing of a watch.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that what your son's business is, jewelry?
Mr. KiERDORF. He doesn't buy any jewelry any more.
Mr. Kennedy. He is not in the jewelry business?
Mr. IviERDORF. No. He has been a rigger for a number of years.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to ask you one or two ques-
tions.
As I understood your testimony, Mr. Hoffa employed you.
Mr. KiERDORF. That is correct.
The Chairman. He has the authority to employ and also to dis-
charge those who occupy the position you have ?
Mr. KiERDORF. No. He may have. But in my instance when I
spoke to him and asked him to give me a break and give me a job
that I was capable of organizing, I Avas capable of doing the work
and I would do it, and do it conscientiously, he said, "I will send you
up to 614 and check the trucks at the gravel stops, and as soon as the
joint council meets, I will let you know. It will be a week or two.
Then you come down to the meeting." He put my name before the
joint council, explained who I was, and that I had experience in or-
ganization, and so forth, and they voted to put me to work as the
business representative of the joint council.
The Chairman. Do you know of any other business agents Mr.
Hoffa borrowed money from along about that time ?
Mr. IviERDORF. Only what I heard, just rumors. To state that I
know he borrowed money from them, I don't know.
The Chairman. I want to ask you one other question.
Mr. Ivierdorf. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you at any time ever ask Mr. Hoffa to pay you
back?
Mr. KiERDORF. I did not quite hear you. Senator.
The Chairman. Did you ever at any time over that period of
years after you made the loan ask Mr. Hoffa to repay you?
Mr. Ivierdorf. No, I never did, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ask him last Friday ?
5306 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. KiERDORF. No, sir.
The Chairman. So it was repaid after he testified without your
asking him ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes, I didn't ask him. As I explained, when I
walked into the 290 office to look in my message box, the secretary*
treasurer told me that j\Ir. Grosbeck w^ould be there at 10 : 40 and
Avished to see me. When he came in and I asked him what he wanted,
he said, "Here is a check that Mr. Hotf a issued."
The GiiAiKMAx. I do not know, but the facts probably speak for
themselves, and one can draw his own conclusions, but here you were
over this period of time after you loaned Mr. Hoffa that money,
$2,000, just a salaried man, and had no other income, you loaned him
$2,000, cash that you had on hand at the time. Thereafter, when you
needed money you borrowed both from banks and from the union.
You never at any time asked him to repay you and he never at any
time offered to repay you other than to ask you, as you say, whether
you were short of money, and there were at least two occasions when
it came to his attention that you were short of money.
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes.
The Chairmax. Because you went to him and borrowed from the
miion with his approval. Those are the circumstances that are pre-
sented to us. Are there any further questions? Senator Mundt?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Kierdorf, do you know Mr. Snyder, whose
name was mentioned m the committee room this afternoon ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes, I do.
Senator Mundt. Do you know him as a man who holds a job some-
what similar to yours, as business agent for another union ?
Mr. KiERDORF. Yes.
Senator Mundt. You could help us find him, could you ?
Mr. KiERDORF. I don't know. I may be able to. If I can, I will.
Senator Mundt. Do you know where he lives ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, I don't sir, I knew that he was working on a
boat somewhere. I think he was working checking cars going on
some of the steamships somewhere.
Senator Mundt, Wlien did you last see Mr. Snyder ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Approximately a month ago I should say.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Grosbeck handed you the check. Is he a per-
sonal secretary to Mr. Hoffa? What connection does he have with
Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. Kierdorf. I don't know just what his business is. He is with
a firm of accountants. Again this is a supposition on my part, as I
stated before I never inquired into anybody's personal affairs. I un-
derstand that he and Mr. Hoffa had some mterests in some sort of
business, he buys bonds or sells bonds for him. That is a supposition.
I don't know whether it is true or not.
Senator Mundt. Was the check signed by Mr. Grosbeck ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, I don't believe it was. It was a cashier's check.
Senator Mundt. It was a cashier's check ?
Mr. Kierdorf. To be frank, I didn't look at the signature. It was a
cashier's check. It says pay to the order of Kierdorf $2,000.
Senator Mundt. It was not a personal check from Jimmy Hoffa ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, sir, it was a cashier's check. I happened to be
going to the bank, I took it to the bank and deposited it.
Senator Mundt. And it didn't bounce ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5307
Mr. KiEKDORF. Not yet. I have been gone since. If it bounces I
will be some short, too, because I immediately wrote checks against it.
The CuAiRMAiSr. Are there any further questions? The witness
may stand aside.
Call the next witness.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Before I do, what is your salary now, Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Kierdorf. $10,070 is what I take home.
Mr. Kennedy. What are the expenses you receive ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Whatever legitimate expenses I have receipts that I
incur, like on a strike, lots of time I supplement the boys on the
picket line.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have a set amount that you receive?
Mr. Kierdorf. No. $40, $50 a week are my regular running ex-
penses.
Senator Mundt. You said $10,070 is your take-home pay after taxes
per year?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes.
Senator Mundt. What is your nominal salary before taxes?
Mr. Kierdorf. I couldn't tell you, sir, believe it or not. I would
have to ask the secretary-treasurer just what it is. I know my take-
home checks are $178, $175. I have approximately $100 a week that
I can give away or play with or loan.
Senator McNamara. I would like to ask the witness, doesn't your
paycheck reflect how much is paid for taxes and other withholding?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, it doesn't. Senator.
Senator McNamara. It is quite unusual, isn't it? Ordinarily a
paycheck reflects what is paid for withholding.
Mr. Kierdorf. From factories I know — I don't understand — a fac-
tory check of employees, it is usually their gross pay, deductions for
insurance and so on. It doesn't appear on ours. Our secretary-
treasurer, I know, because I sit in there and I see him check it all up,
the withholding tax and so on, and everything else.
Senator McNamara. Wlien you make a tax return at the end of the
year, you have to go to him and find out how much he paid you.
You don't have a running account.
Mr. Kierdorf. We get the slip.
Senator McNamara. At the end of the year ?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct, sir.
Senator McNamara. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Paul Allen.
The Chairman. Mr. Allen, come around, please, sir.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate Select Committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Allen. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL C. ALLEN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. EITZGERALD
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, Mr. Allen.
Mr. Allen. Paul C. Allen, 481 Bellevue Eoad, Lake Orion, Mich.
I am the business manager of the Machine Riggers and Erectors
Union of Detroit.
5308 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Tlie Chairman. You have Mr. Fitzgerald representing you, as
your counsel ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The record may so sho^Y. How long have you been
in your present position ?
Mr. Allen. 1941.
The Chairman. What is your salary ?
Mr. Allen. $150 a week, $25 allowances.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. The previous witness, Mr. Kierdorf , mentioned about
the difficulties at Grand Blanc. Is that how you pronounce it?
Mr. Allen. Grand Blanc.
Mr. Kennedy. In connection with the riggers' union. Were you
involved in that ?
Mr. Allen. I was.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the situation? Were you tried? Was
there a criminal action against you ?
Mr. Allen. I plead guilty.
Mr. Kenn edy. When was that ?
Mr. Allen. Gentlemen, I don't know the date. It was January 14
of this year ; for felonious assault.
Mr. Kennedy. There were other officials of the riggers' union in-
volved in that ?
Mr. Allen. There was.
Mr. Kennedy. Three or four, were there ?
Mr. Allen. We had 1 other official and 2 union stewards go to jail.
Mr. Kennedy. ]VIi\ Jack Kierdorf was also involved ?
Mr. Allen. He was involved in the proceedings.
Mr. Kennedy. He received 3 years' probation.
Mr. Allen. I think he did.
Mr. Kennedy. What was your sentence ?
Mr. Allen. Five years' probation.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a fine ?
Mr. Allen. $1,000 fuie.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay the fine yourself ?
Mr. Allen. My organization paid the fine.
Mr. Kennedy. Your union paid the fine ?
Mr. Allen. That is right. They paid the fine for all the people
involved.
Mr. Kennedy. Who represented you in that case ?
Mr. Allen. George Fitzgerald and Joseph Joseph.
Mr. Kennedy. Did your union pay their fee ?
Mr. Allen. They did.
Mr. Kennedy. They represented all the defendants ?
Mr. Allen. They represented all the defendants involved.
Mr, Kennedy. How many members of the riggers' union came up
from Detroit to Grand Blanc ?
Mr. Allen. I couldn't say how many came up because there are
considerable people working in Grand Blanc and Flint that live in
Detroit.
Mr. I^NNEDY. There were about 200 members in the riggers union ?
Mr. Allen. No, there was not in my opinion over 120 people.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there any teamsters with you ?
Mr. Allen. Not with us, no.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5309
Mr. KJENNEDY. Were there any teamsters up there ?
Mr. Allen. There were teamsters employed up there, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there any teamsters involved in this?
Mr. Allen. Not that I know of. There is a lot of people there. A
lot of people got involved.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if any teamsters came up from Detroit
in connection with this matter ?
Mr. Allen. Not in connection with this matter ; no.
Mr. Kennedy. Did any teamsters come up from Detroit during
this period of time ?
Mr. Allen. I understood there were some teamsters on the job;
yes. They worked there. They had about 150 people on the job.
Mr. Kennedy. And they came from Detroit?
Mr. Allen. Many of them live in Detroit and go up there every
day.
Mr. Kennedy. How did the rest of the riggers come up to Grand
Blanc ? How did you come up to Grand Blanc ?
Mr. Allen. I was called the day before that the trades had ganged
up on our people. They tore down the shanty, they threw the clothes
and burned them. They hit several of our people with pipes. Tliey
crashed up one automobile. Sixty people would gather around 4 or 5
of our people and run them out of the factory. I got a call from the
employer. I told him to arrange a meeting or he said he would try
to arrange to get the agents together to settle the thing the next day.
I called him and I got a call from my steward. I told my steward to
get in touch with all the men so they could know where to reach them
that night to see if we worked the next day. I got a call from the
employer. Do you want me to finish ?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Yes, please.
Mr. Allen. I got a call from the employer and I asked him specifi-
cally did he want us to work the next morning at 8 o'clock. He said
"Yes." I told him, "You know we were run out today bodily like a
bunch of dogs," that we wasn't going to be run out the next day, but
we would appear for work and we would work and we wanted a
meeting set up so that this kind of jurisdictional dispute could be
handled without any trouble. He advised me that the building trades
council in Flint had called a meeting for 9 : 30 or 10 o'clock the next
morning. I told him I would be there at 8 o'clock.
I got there — I notified our stewards on the job to have the men
report at 7 o'clock to go to work to be ready for work at 8 o'clock.
So the next morning we reported for work. A lot of the men was
a little afraid to go in. We told them under no circumstances start
no trouble, do anything to agitate anything. If there was any trouble
came up, contact us. It seems as if the other group got in there and
told our people that we run you out yesterday, today we are going to
run you out, so you don't come back again. We don't want nobody
from Detroit here in Flint working.
My steward had not showed up so the assistant steward came out
and got me and said they gathered up on the dock and pushed our
people back into the corner by the new building. You got to remem-
ber there were 16 other trades involved against our one trade. There
was about 500 other people on the job involved against our 100 or 120
people.
5310 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I came in to the factor. I came into the factory and we worked in
two places. You got to remember — you got to know the sites to
know how we were. Over here we were working in Grand Blanc for
Fisher Body. About a quarter of a mile directly in back is the
Government storage site for the United States, I guess it is the
ordnance, I don't know, either the Air Force or ordnance. We had
about 100 people working in there. I got word to come into the
factory. I came into the factory about 8 o'clock.
About quarter after 8, I think it was, our people got pushed over
in the corner, about 75, and they were still coming. Maybe there
were about 50 when I got there, and still coming from around here
and there.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't want to go into all the details of the fight.
Mr. Allen. Do you want my story.
Mr. Kennedy. The court held subsequently that you, the riggers
union, was responsible, did they not ?
Mr. Allen. We plead quilty not of being guilty in the act, but of
going too far. We were told by our legal advisers that even when
you are attacked that you can go too far. Like a bunch of cornered
people that we were, wanting to get out, we were told that we went
too far, and therefore we were guilty and we plead guilty.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have to make a payment to some people
who suffered some severe injuries ?
Mr. Allen. We paid $30,000 damages and we understand we are
being sued for about $2 million more.
Mr, Kennedy. The $30,000 was to a man who suffered a fractured
skull and broken eardrum.
Mr. Allen. I couldn't tell you which man it was. It was handled
through the attorneys.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the union pay any of the fine ?
Mr. Allen. The union paid $11,000.
Mr. Kennedy. To that man ?
Mr. Allen. Under the court order we had to pay some and the
union paid some.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien did the union pay the $11,000? Approxi-
mately when was it?
Mr. Allen. I think it was several days after the hearing. I am
not sure. Or during the hearing.
Mr. Kennedy. Is the riggers union a member of the Teamsters
Joint Council?
Mr. Allen. They are not.
Mr. Kennedy. They have no connection with the teamsters union?
Mr. Allen. No connection whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you receive any moneys from the teamsters?
Mr. Allen. I do not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you receive any expenses from the teamsters ?
Mr. Allen. I do not.
Senator Mundt. With whom is the riggers union affiliated ?
Mr. Allen. With the International Association of Bridge, Struc-
tural, and Ornamental Iron Workers.
Senator Mundt. Is that an independent union ?
Mr. Allen. In the building trades department of the American
Federation of Labor-CIO.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5311
Senator Mundt. No connection with the teamsters except that they
also belong to the AFI^CIO ?
Mr. Allen. That is probably right.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't receive any hotel expenses in July 1955
from local No. 299 ?
Mr. Allen. I did not, although I read in the paper that I had.
Mr. Kennedy. But you did not ?
Mr. Allen. I did not. It was a bill sent by mistake, and I paid
the hotel and told them to correct it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make a loan to Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Allen. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that ?
Mr. Allen. In the fall of 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. What were the circumstances surrounding your
loan, and how much was it?
Mr. Allen. The loan was for $2,000, and for what purpose he
needed it, I did not know. I happened to be in the building because
our people in the garages worked together. I happened to be in the
building sometime in that time and I met him in the hallway. I said,
"You look a little low." I think that is probably what the conversa-
tion was.
Mr. Kennedy. You said to him, "You look a little low"?
Mr. Allen. I think something like that. Anyway, he said he needed
some money. I said maybe I can help you out. I got a few dollars
between me and my wife. So he says they will help, so I got $2,000
and gave it to him the next morning.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get the $2,000 ?
Mr. Allen. I got it from the banker, my wife.
Senator Mundt. What had been your previous contacts or asso-
ciations with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Allen. None only except in the cause of business and friend-
ship to some extent. You understand us. Our people work for
cartage companies and his people work for cartage companies in 90
percent of the cases. So we are bound to run into each other in the
normal negotiations and work. Mostly I run into his agents. When
I first started in I mostly run into him.
Senator Mundt. Had you known him for quite a few years ?
Mr. Allen. The first time I met him was in 1938.
Senator Mundt. The loan was made in 1952 ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Had you known him intimately or socially or on a
friendly basis?
Mr. Allen. I would say we got to be very friendly over a period
of time.
Senator Mundt. Did he ever help you get a job of any kind ?
Mr. Allen. No. I never asked him for a job and he never helped
me.
Senator Mundt. You never belonged to his union ?
Mr. Allen. I never belonged to the teamsters union.
Senator Mundt. It is a matter of personal friendship that developed
over a period of years ?
Mr. Allen. I would say that.
Mr. Kennedy. You made this loan of $2,000 in the fall of 1952 ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
5312 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. KJENNEDT, You received the money from your wife ?
Mr. Allen. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You were married at that time ?
Mr. Allen. I believe I was. I just got married.
Mr. Kennedy. You had saved this money and put this money aside ?
Mr. Allen. Between the two. She saved quite a bit. Between
what I saved since I got my first divorce we put it aside to get married
on and so forth.
Mr. Kennedy. You put it aside to get married on ?
Mr. Allen. Not entirely; no. I think I was married at the time
I gave him the money.
Mr. Kennedy. I think you told us out in Detroit that you put this
money aside to get married and you used that money to give to Jimmy
Hoffa.
Mr. Allen. In Detroit when you questioned me, I figured we had
four or five thousands dollars in the kitty jointly between us.
Mr. Kennedy. Where was the kitty kept ?
Mr. Allen. I may have been off one or two. Whether I was married
a month or so. After all a guy doesn't get married every day.
Mr. Kennedy. Where was tlie kitty kept?
Mr. Allen. She kept it. I never asked her.
Mr. Kennedy. You went to her and asked her for $2,000 for Jim
Hoffa?
Mr. Allen. I went to her and told her that Jimmy Hoffa said he
needed some money, and I said I could loan him some. She said,
"How much did you say?" I didn't say, but I figured $2,000. She
said, "O. K., if you think it is all right."
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ask Mr. Hoffa what he was going to use the
money for ?
Mr. Allen. I never asked Mr. Hoffa what he was going to use it
for.
Mr. Kennedy. You gave it to him in cash ?
Mr. Allen. In cash.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get a note ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he paid any interest?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When we talked to you out in Detroit, you told us
he had not repaid you.
Mr. Allen. I got a call last Thursday night at my house to be
in to see Mr. Grosbeck at the Teamsters office. I thought it was in
connection with the committee, as we promised George Fitzgerald we
would be available at any time. I went in there and Mr. Grosbeck
gave me a check for $2,000, a cashier's check. He had me sign a re-
ceipt. I took the check and left.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you asked Mr. Hoffa for the money ?
Mr. Allen. And no time had I asked him for the money.
Mr. Kennedy. You had not asked him for the money from the
time you loaned it to him in 1952 up until the time he repaid you last
Thursday ?
Mr. Allen. That is right. Last Friday he paid me.
Mr. Kennedy. He paid you on Friday ?
Mr. Allen. I got a call on Thursday to come in the office Friday
morninof.
EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5313
Mr. Kennedy. Did you meet Mr. Kierdorf there ?
Mr. Allen. I seen Mr. Kierdorf in the hallway but not to talk to
him.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Were there a group of business agents coming in to
get their money ?
Mr. Allen. I would not know. There was about 150 people there.
Whether they were all business agents or not I wouldn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. But during this 6-year period you had never spoken
to him about getting the money back ?
Mr. Allen. That is right.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Had you loaned or borrowed any money yourself
during this period of time ?
Mr. Allen. I think I have, I think I bought the car on payment.
I think I have a mortgage on my home. I think it was in 1952 I got
the mortgage. I borrowed some money from the credit imion in
1955. I was a little confused when I told you about it in Detroit, the
$150 I was telling you about, was for my boy. I borrowed on his
account over in Germany. He is in the credit union and I borrowed
the $100 instead of $150 because he had a $50 allotment check. I
sent the $150 back to him so he could make a tour of Denmark and
Sweden. There is where I was confused. I borrowed about $500
from the credit union in 1955.
Mr. Kennedy. $500?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you borrow any other money ?
Mr. Allen. Can I look at this? In times I paid some back and
borrowed more at the same time. At the present time I owe $240 at
the credit union. I think I paid $40 a month on it.
Mr. Kennedy. And 3 or 4 months ago you borrowed $1,500 from
another friend?
Mr. Allen. I borrowed $1,500 I think it was in April.
The Chairman. The $2,000 check is going to come in pretty handy.
Mr. Allen. I gave that back to the wife. That belongs to her.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the name of the friend you borrowed the
money from ?
Mr. Allen. John Martin Wolf.
Mr. Kennedy. And you borrowed that back in April 1957 ?
Mr. Allen. This year, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you got a mortgage on your home, is that right ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. The balance outstanding on that is over $5,000?
Mr. Allen. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Kennedy. It is over $5,000 ?
Mr. Allen. I think it is $5,900. I am not quite sure.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time you never spoke to Mr.
Hoffa about repaying the money?
Mr. Allen. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. And he never spoke to you ?
Mr. Allen. He never mentioned it.
Mr. Kennedy. He never mentioned it in 5 years ?
Mr. Allen. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Up until last Thursday when you received the tele-
phone call to come down to pick up your loan?
89330 — 57— pt. 14 3
5314 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Allen. Just a call to come down to the office. I didn't know I
was going to get the money.
Senator Mundt. You had seen him quite a few times in the last 5
years ?
Mr. Allen. I wouldn't say too many times. I see him a lot of times
in the course of business, yes.
Senator Mundt. You said that previously you had been quite
friendly.
Mr, Allen. I mean that. But I didn't go out of my way to see him
or anything.
Senator Mundt. I just wondered if you had seen him many times
since you were a personal friend — in the 5 years
Mr. Allen. Yes, I met him.
Senator Mundt. It seems logical that he would have mentioned to
you casually sometimes, "I am going to pay you that $2,000 one of these
days. I don't have it right now, but you will get it." He would have
mentioned it some time. You are sure he never mentioned it ?
Mr. Allen. He never mentioned it. It might be logical, but he
never did.
Senator Mundt. It was a kind of blind spot in your conversation.
Nobody ever mentioned the $2,000?
Mr. Allen. I think you have to understand friendship. If I was
friendly with anybody and he owed me money, and I know a lot of
people are that way, I would be embarrassed to ask him for the money,
and he might be embarrassed to say
Senator Mundt. I can see the first part, where you might be em-
barrassed to say to a friend, "How about the $2,000." But it seems
to me that if he was a friend of yours, he would be embarrassed not
at least to mention the fact that he still had it in mind and he was
going to pay you sometime.
Mr. Allen. I don't know your personal feelings.
Senator Mundt. Here you are for 5 years, with a personal friend-
ship, with $2,000 outstanding, and the man who had the money would
not at any time say, "Allen, I am going to pay j^ou. I can't pay you
right now. I want you to know that I continue to appreciate the
fact you are letting me use the $2,000." It is rather curious to me
that he would duck away from that subject entirely as if it had
leprosy.
Mr. Allen. That could be it.
Senator Mundt. I can understand your part. I can see why you
would not go to a friend and say, "How about the $2,000?" That
makes sense. The other part is a little hard for me to believe.
Mr. Allen. I can't say what his personal feelings might be, be-
cause he didn't pay me. I feel he might be embarrassed, too, at times.
I just feel that way.
Senator Mundt. "A^Hien you got your $2,000 back, was there $50
interest ,or anything like that on it ?
Mr. Allen. No.
Senator Mundt. Just $2,000?
Mr. Allen. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Not a note, "Thanks a lot, Paul, I appreciate this
loan for 5 years?"
Mr. Allen. I didn't see Jimmy at all.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN TELE LABOR FIELD 5315
Senator Mundt. He had another man hand you $2,000 and that
was it ?
Mr. Allen. A business transaction.
Senator Mundt. Not even a friendly little note saying "Thanks
a lot-'?
Mr. Allen. No.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Senator McNamara. I would like to ask you a question. Why is
there such a close connection between the teamsters and the organi-
zation you represent, a branch of the International Association of
Bridge, Structural, and Ornamental Iron Workers? Do you work
on the same equipment ?
Mr. Allen. We work in the same equipment a lot of times. Their
drivers drive our trucks to the job, and work the winches, and there
are many hazardous conditions where they hoist things. There are
a lot of times like brother and son, brother and father, son and father,
and brother and brother, 1 with the teamsters and 1 with the riggers,
and there is quite a tie-in there. At one time back in — this is before
my time — but at one time our organization belonged to the teamsters,
about 1919, or 1917. Then in 19-36 and 1937 our organization was
with the UAW, I guess the UAW-CIO at the time. Then we broke
away from that, and we went into the Bridge and Structural and
Ornamental Iron Workers.
Senator McNamara. Your people actually take the machinery, if it
is machinery you are moving, and load it onto their trucks and then
you unload it and send it to places that the nature of the work requires ?
Mr. Allen. We erect the heavy stamping machinery and we do
steeplejack work, and one branch of our trade builds the bridges, and
so forth.
Senator McNamara. Your jurisdiction is just the rigger's part of
it?
Mr. Allen. That is correct.
Senator JMcNamara. I see. That is all.
The Chairman. Is there anything further you want to state about
your transaction with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Allen. No, sir
The Chairman. At the time that you loaned him the money, was
there any agreement about when he would repay it ?
Mr. Allen. There was nothing said about repayment.
The Chairman. Did you ever expect to get it back ?
Mr. Allen. I knew someday I would get it back.
The Chairman. You knew someday ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you anticipate then you would not hear from
it for 5 years ?
Mr. Allen. No ; I didn't.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Mr. Kennedy. No.
The Chairman. You may stand aside.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. James Clift.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I was going to ask, Mr. Chairman, may these other
two witnesses be excused ?
The Chairman. They may be excused.
5316 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
You do solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before
this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Clift. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES CLIFT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD
The Chairman. State your name and place of residence and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Clift. James Clift, 6568 Fairwood, Garden City, Mich. I am
a business representative of the Teamsters Union, Local 337, Detroit,
Mich.
The Chairman. How long have you been in that capacity ?
Mr. Clift. With the teamsters union, or with the local, you mean?
The Chairman. We will start with the local.
Mr. Clift. Since 1944.
The Chairman. Since 1944 you have been a business agent with the
local '?
Mr. Clift. That is right.
The Chairman. Prior to that time you had been Avith the union
how long?
Mr. Clift. Approximately 4 years.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Clift, you made a loan to Mr. Hoffa I
Mr. Clift. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that ?
Mr. Clift. It was around Thanksgiving of 1952.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding
that loan ?
Mr. Clift. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell us about that loan, why you happened
to make the loan to Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Clift. I was sitting in the business agents' room, in our build-
ing — I think that you are familiar with it, Mr. Kennedy — and Mr.
Hoffa came in and asked me if I was holding any money that he could
use, and I asked him how much, and he said, "Could you let me have
$1,000?" and I said, "Yes, sir."
The next day, or in the next day or so, I brought it down to him.
Mr. Kennedy. 'V^Hiere did you get it ?
Mr. Clift. At home.
Mr. Kennedy. You kept it at home ?
Mr. Clift. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. You keep cash at home ?
Mr. Clift. I do.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have a bank account ?
Mr. Clift. Yes, I do.
Mr. Kennedy. But you happened to keep this money at home ?
Mr. Clift. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you write him a check ?
Mr. Clift. Because I didn't have that much money in the bank.
Mr. Kennedy. You just had it at home ?
Mr. Clift. That is right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5317
Mr. Kennedy. You keep a little box at home ?
Mr. Cllft. Not especially.
Mr. Kennedy. Just around the home ?
Mr. Clift. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. You went home and you got the cash and you brought
it down and gave it to him ?
Mr. Clift. That I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he give you a note ?
Mr. Clift. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any evidence that you made the loan
to him ?
Mr. Clift. No, I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, when I talked to you out in Detroit you said
that he had not repaid you the money.
Mr. Clift. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he repaid you ?
Mr. Clift. He has.
Mr. Kennedy. When did he repay you ?
Mr. Clift. Thursday of last week.
Mr. Grosberg paid me.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Grosberg did ?
Mr. Clift. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. He just gave you a check ?
Mr. Clift. That is right ; a cashier's check.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he tell you it was from Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Clift. He did.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, during this period of time, from Thanksgiving
of 1952 to last Thursday, had you had any discussions with Mr. Hoffa
about this $1,000 that he owed you ?
Mr. Clift. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ever offer to repay you the $1,000 ?
Mr. Clift. No ; he didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever ask him for any of the $1,000 ?
Mr. Clift. I never did.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you been making any loans or have you made
any loans during this 5-year period ?
Mr. Clift. Yes, sir ; I have.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us about those ?
Mr. Clift. I would like to ask for a clarification. Do you call
financing a car, when you buy a car, is that a loan ? Are you talking
of a loan of cash ?
Mr. Kennedy. No ; any kind of a loan.
Mr. Clift. Well, that I would like to know.
The Chairman. Well, to clarify it, a loan is where you borrow
money, or where you went into debt and gave a note or obligation
for repayment.
Mr. Clift. I think, since I gave Mr. Hoffa the $1,000, I think that
I bought 2 cars, which I had financed, and I had a car that I had
bought prior to that, that was financed. I made a loan of $1,500 on
FHA for modernization of my home.
The Chairman. That was September 13, 1954 ?
Mr. Clift. Yes; it was. It was the Bank of the Commonwealth,
Myrtle and 14th Street. I think it was sometime in 1955 I made a
loan of the local of $450. I think that is it.
5318 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES LNT THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. What was that, again, the last one ?
Mr. Clift. I think that I made a loan, or I made a loan from the
local, local 33Y, of $450.
The Chairman. When was that ? Was it February 17, 1955 ?
Mr. Clift. I think that was approximately it.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, rather than borrow the $450 from the local,
why didn't you go to Mr. Hoffa and ask him to pay you at least part
of the money back that he owed you ?
Mr. Clift. I didn't feel I wanted to.
Mr. Kennedy. He never offered it, during this period ?
Mr. Clift. I never asked, and he never offered.
Mr. Kennedy. According to the records that we have, you made a
loan on your automobile, June 30, 1952, of $1,420.
Mr. Clift. That was a new car I bought.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, you made a loan on the purchase of a new car.
Mr. Clift. That was a car that was financed, $1,420.
Mr. Kennedy. You financed another car on January 12, 1956, for
$1,405; is that right?
Mr. Clift. That is correct.
Mr. Ivennedy. And, on July 24, 1957, an auto loan of $1,359.72 ; is
that right?
Mr. Cljft. That is right.
Mr, Kennedy. In addition, you borrowed the $450 from the local
337, of which you are business agent ?
Mr. Clift. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, when you needed the
money, you never went to Mr. Hoffa to ask him to repay the money
that you say that you loaned to him ?
Mr. Clift. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any judgments outstanding against
you now ?
Mr. Clift. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Wlien you obtained the loan from the local, did
you pay interest to the local for the money ?
Mr. Clift. I don't think that I did. I am not positive. But I am
pretty sure I didn't.
Senator Mundt. You are a business agent for the local, and you
must know something about its lending arrangements. Do they make
loans without interest ?
Mr. Clift. At various times.
Senator Mundt. Do any of the dues-paying members, who get short,
go to the union and borrow money rather than go to a bank ?
Mr. Clift. In many cases, Senator.
Senator Mundt. What would you say the total amount of the out-
standing loans would be ?
Mr. Clift. Very small.
Senator Mundt. How small ?
Mr. Clift. An estimate I couldn't give you, and I am not the
secretary-treasurer.
Senator Mundt. But it is your testimony under oath that any worker
who gets short can go to his union, No. 337, and borrow money without
interest from the union ; is that right ?
Mr. Clift. I didn't say "any member."
Senator Mundt. Just the officials ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD 5319
Mr. Clift. For the correction, Senator, I didn't say "any member."
Senator Mundt. Which members can and which members cannot ?
Mr. Clift. A member who might have a wife going into the hospital,
or one of the many serious cases, and it would have to be a very serious
case in order for that member to borrow money. Whereas he would
sign an authorization to pay it back.
Senator Mundt. All right ; you have some rules, then, by which you
determine when a member can borrow money from the union without
interest. One of them is when he has a wife who has to go into the
hospital or seriously ill, or he is confronted with a big medical bill.
What others?
Mr. Clift. I couldn't give you a correct answer, and I don't think
you would want me to.
Senator Mundt. I would like a correct answer.
Mr. Clift. I can only speak on the cases, or a case, maybe, that I
might know of. If a member — I know this hasn't happened in quite
a few years — but I have seen times when a member would come in and
his wife would be in the hospital and he might need $150 to get her out.
Well, we sure are not going to let a member's wife stay in the hospital
because he can't get her out.
Senator Mundt. That is one rule. Any member who has a wife in
the hospital and needs money can go to the union and borrow money
without interest.
Mr. Clift. I cannot answer you whether there is interest or not.
Senator Mundt. I was asking you whether or not there was interest
on your loan.
Mr. Clift. I cannot answer that.
Senator Mundt. In your particular case, did your loan meet the
rule ? Was your wife in the hospital ?
Mr. Clifi\ I didn't get the question. Senator.
Senator Mundt. In your case, did your loan meet the rule? Was
your wife in the hospital, and did you need the $450 for medical
purposes ?
Mr. Clift. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Why did you need the money ?
Mr. Clift. Oh, I don't know at the moment. It depends on many
things, and I might want to have bought something.
Senator Mundt. I am trying to figure out whether there was any
special rule for officials and different rules for members who pay their
dues — just a moment. The member who pays the dues, according to
your testimony, gets it when his wife is in the hospital; but you say
you got it for some other reason, and I am trying to find out what it is,
to find out whether it applies to the fellow who pays the dues. What
did you borrow it for ? You remember why you needed the money ;
do you not ?
Mr. Clift. I beg your pardon ?
Senator Mundt. You remember why you needed the money. It
was February of 1955, a couple of years ago that you borrowed' $450.
Mr. Clift. I think it was to buy some property.
Senator Mundt. Is it fair to assume, then, that anybody who pays
dues to the union, which accumulates the funds which are available for
loan, who wants to buy property, can also go to the union as you did
and borrow money without interest, or was that something special for
the officials ?
5320 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Clift. I don't know, Senator, of any members that had a reason
or a just cause for borrowing money that never got it.
Senator Mundt. Well, certainly buying property is a just reason
for borrowing money ?
Mr. Clift. It could be.
Senator Mundt. Was this Sun Valley property that you bought?
Mr. Clift. I think so.
Senator Mundt. Can any member of the union, then, who wants to
invest in property at Sun Valley, borrow money from the union
without interest, as you did, or is this a privilege reserved for union
officials ?
Mr. Clift. I honestly can't answer that question. I don't know of
any members that asked to borrow any money for that reason.
Senator Mundt. There Avould be a lot of members of any union
that would want to borrow money to buy property if they could
get it without interest. That is a pretty good investment. I think
that you would find a line out in front of your door if you would just
announce over the radio now that this is available to anybody in the
union — and it should be because they pay the dues that create the
funds. I am sure when they create the fund they do not do it with
the intention that only the officials can use it.
Mr. Clift. May I consult with my counsel a moment ?
Senator Mundt. Surely.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Clift. This is Senator Mundt, is that right ?
Senator Mundt. That is right.
Mr. Clift. Senator Mundt, I am not the financial secretary-treas-
urer of the local union, and what the conditions of borrowing the
money for or the interest rates or anything like that I am not quali-
fied to answer.
Senator Mundt. You are a union member.
Mr. Clift. I am a union member.
Senator Mundt. As a union member, do you feel that the rules
that apply to the union officials on borrowing funds should also apply
to the union members on borrowing funds, or do you think that there
should be a special hierarchy of privileged officials who can borrow
money on different terms than the workers who have to pay the money
that goes into the union funds ?
You can answer that question, as a union member. You are a
trustee, I believe, of the local union.
Mr. Clift. Just one second. May I consult my counsel?
Senator Mundt. I would rather have your opinion first, if you can
give it to me. You can certainly consult your counsel, but I am try-
ing to find out what Mr. Clift thinks about it.
Mr. Clift. I would rather consult my counsel first.
Senator Mundt. All right.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Clift. I feel. Senator Mnudt, any member desiring to make a
loan, who will come down and give a good reason for borrowing
money, should be able to borrow money.
Senator Mundt. On the same basis whehther he is an official or
not?
Mr. Clift. Correct.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5321
Senator Mtjndt. I certainly think that if unions are in the busi-
ness of making loans without interest that your position is very sound,
and I think that that is correct.
Now, in your particular case, it cost you about $200 to loan $1,000
to Jimmy Hoffa, did it not ? You loaned him $1,000 without interest
for 5 years, and I am sure that in the financing of an automobile in
Detroit you cannot borrow money for less than 4 percent, certainly,
and probably you would have to pay more.
Us country folks have to pay more, but let us say it is 4 percent.
Wlien you loan a man $1,000, that is taking $40 a year out of your
pocket, in interest, that you do not get, and in 5 years, it is $200. So
I was wondering when you got the $1,000 back from Mr. Hoffa if there
was a $200 check for the interest that you were out because you had
been paying it to fiLiiance companies while he had been enjoying the
use of your $1,000.
Mr. Clift. There could have been.
Senator Mundt. Was there ?
Mr. Clift. But, Senator
Senator Mundt. I am asking you how much the check was ?
Mr. Clift. I beg your pardon ?
Senator Mundt. How much of a check did you get ?
Mr. Clift. From Mr. Hoffa ?
Senator Mundt. Or Mr. Grosberg ?
Mr. Clift. $1,000. ^
Senator Mundt. You said there could have been an extra $200.
Was there ?
Mr, Clift. No. I said there could have been that much interest,
and I am agreeing with you there could have been that much. But
I am not crying about it.
Senator Mundt. I am not saying you are.
Mr. Clift. I want to keep the record straight.
Senator Mundt. I am pointing out that indirectly Jimmy Hoffa
was the beneficiary of $200 worth of interest that he did not have to
pay because he got the money that you got from the miion, actually ;
and you borrowed the money, part of it, from the union without
interest and part of it went to him. So I am pointing out that he
was the one, ultimately, as in the other two cases, also, who got the
benefit of the interest-free money. I am just making a commentary.
Mr. Clift. Oh.
The Chairman. Are there any questions ?
Senator McNamara. You indicate that you are an officer of local
337. What is that designated, and what is 337 ?
Mr. Clift. That is a food and beverage local.
Senator McNamara. Who is the president?
Mr. Clift. Bert Brennan.
Senator McNamara. When you go to borrow money does he have
to approve it, or who approves it ?
Mr. Clift. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Wlio is the secretary -treasurer ?
Mr. Clift. Robert Holmes.
Senator McNamara. They are the ones you go to to make a loan?
Mr. Clift. Yes, that is right.
Senator McNamara. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
5322 IMPEOPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. Mr. Clift, when Mr. Hoffa was before us, he said
that among his various investments he had some oil properties up in
my neighboring State of North Dakota. I was wondering if there
are any rumors around Detroit that Jimmy Hoffa, as well, has sud-
denly hit a gusher up there between last Wednesday and this Tues-
day, because he seems to have come into a lot of extra money.
Mr. Clift. I haven't heard of it.
Senator Mundt. As a neighbor of North Dakota, I am interested
if that has happened.
Mr. Clift. I haven't heard of it, sir.
Senator Mundt. It must have come from somewhere, and I did not
know where.
Mr. Clift. It is wonderful.
Mr. Kennedy. I just have a couple of questions.
Mr. Clift, you are a delegate from local 337 to the national con-
vention ?
Mr. Clift. I am.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you elected as a delegate ?
Mr. Clift. I will be.
Mr. Kennedy. You will be elected ?
Mr. Clift. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have a meeting scheduled to elect you ?
Mr. Clift. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When is that scheduled ?
Mr. Clift. Tonight.
]Mr. Kennedy. There is going to be a meeting tonight to elect you ?
Mr. Clift. There will be.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that meeting called ?
Mr. Clift. I think they were notified last Thursday or Friday of a
special called meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. Just in the last week, is that right?
Mr. Clift. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you know you are going to be it ?
Mr. Clift. Well, from my membership, and the executive board,
preferably the executive board, and I am an executive of the local
union, it would grant me the right to go to the convention. Subject
to the approval of the rank-and-file member, which the membership
meeting is called for tonight.
Mr. Kennedy. The executive board, when did they select you to
Mr. Clift. I think sometime in February, and I am not sure.
Mr. Kennedy. They didn't decide up until the last week to have it
ratified by the membership ?
Mr. Clift. No, I think it has been ratified right along, by the
membership.
Mr. Kennedy. It has to be ratified at a general meeting, and a gen-
eral meeting wasn't called until the last week ?
Mr. Clift. No, our meetings are held by divisions, and now this is
a general membership meeting tonight.
Mr. Kennedy. At a regular general meeting of the membership?
Mr. Clift. There is no regular general meeting of the membership,
and it is held by divisions. I think that I can explain this. I don't
think a meat driver would like to know what a fish driver is doing.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you know the membership — it is 4 o'clock
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5323
in the afternoon in Washington — is going to elect you tonight in
Detroit ? And what kind of a democratic process is that ?
Mr. Clift. I would like to say this : I am put up as a delegate sub-
ject to the approval of the general membership meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have opposition ?
Mr. Clift. I don't know ; I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. You haven't heard of any, have you ?
Mr. Clift. No ; not that I know of.
Mr, Kennedy. Who is the head of your union ?
Mr. Clift. Mr. Bert Brennan.
Mr. Kennedy. He is one of the delegates, too ?
Mr. Clift. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he been nominated by your executive board ?
Mr. Clift. Yes ; he has.
Mr. Kennedy. They just nominate one slate, and then the slate is
submitted to the membership ?
Mr. Clift. That could be changed tonight, maybe, and I don't know.
The membership will decide who goes.
Mr. Kennedy. You answered the question that you were going
when I asked you.
Mr. Clift. Well, I am very sorry — subject to the membership's
approval.
Senator McNasiara. While the chief counsel is checking something,
the notes he has, I would like to ask who is eligible for membership
to this delegation. Is any member of the union in good standing ?
Mr. Clift. For a period of 2 years.
Senator McNamara. It is not restricted to any particular group;
anybody who is a paid-up member is eligible to be selected at this
membership meeting ?
Mr. Clift. Yes.
Senator Mundt. I am not quite clear how you got nominated. You
say you are nominated by the executive board ^
Mr. Clift. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Could you tell me how you got nominated ? You
are nominated, and are to be confirmed tonight. Who nominated you ?
Mr. Clift. To be frank with you, I don't know. Senator.
Senator Mundt. You do not know ?
Mr. Clift. No.
Senator Mundt. Not the individual ; but is there a nominating com-
mittee, or does the executive board do the nominating, or does Mr.
Brennan pick the nominees? That is what I am trying to get at.
What is the procedure of nominating delegates to the convention?
You have been nominated.
Mr. Clift. The executive board usually recommends.
Senator Mundt. Eecommends the names ?
Mr. Clift. They recommend, and the nominations will be before
the membership tonight.
Senator Mundt. That is what I understand.
Mr. Clift. That is right.
Senator Mundt. I am trying to find out now who selected the names
to go before the membership tonight.
Mr. Clift. Pardon me a second, please.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
5324 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Cleft. They are nominations by the executive board.
Senator Mundt. Now, you are a member of the executive board, are
you?
Mr. Clitt. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Did you nominate yourself?
Mr. Clift. No, sir ; I don't think so.
Senator Mundt. What is that ?
Mr. Cleft. I don't think so.
Senator Mundt. Did you nominate Mr. Brennan, and Mr. Bren-
nan nominated you ?
Mr. Cllft. I most likely did nominate Mr. Brennan.
Senator Mundt. And Mr. Brennan most likely nominated you ?
Mr. Clift. It could have been mostly anybody on the executive
board.
Mr. Kennedy. We have the minutes here. Mr. Clift is mistaken.
He did nominate himself.
Mr. Clift. I don't think I did.
Mr. Kennedy. It says :
Brother James Clift made a motion, supported by Brother Walter Schuler,
that the personnel of local union No. 337, comprised of Bert Brennan, James
Langley, Robert Holmes, Frank Yezbec, James Clift, Walter Schuler, Charles
Burge, Allen Balfour, Cecil Watts, Morris Coleman, Louis Desser, and George
Danuk, be elected as delegates to attend the international convention this fall.
You people already elected the delegates back in February.
Mr. Clift. If that is the minutes of the meeting
Mr. I^nnedy. Yes.
Mr. Clift. It is subject to the approval of the membership night.
If that is the reading of the minutes, then I nominated myself along
with the personnel of our local union ; correct ?
Mr. I^nnedy. You nominated yourself to go to Miami.
Mr. Clift. For what — O. K.
The Chairman. I followed the reading of chief counsel of what
appears to be a photostatic copy of the minutes of the executive-board
meeting of February 1, 1957. Would you like to examine the minutes ?
Mr. Clift. I don't think it is necessary. Senator.
The Chairman. We will consider it as read in the record.
Mr. KJENNEDY. It says here according to the constitution, and I am
just trying to get cleared up, as to your position in this matter :
All delegates to the international convention shall be selected by a vote at a
regular meeting of the local union.
Is this a regular meeting ?
Mr. Clift. Just a second.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Clift. I wish you would read the other method, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. I will do that. Would you say that this is not the
way you are selecting your delegates ? Are you selecting your dele-
gates under the regular-meeting method ?
Mr. Clift. I wish you would read the other part of the constitution.
Mr. Kennedy. I won't have to read it if that is the way you are
selecting your delegates. Is that the way you are selecting your dele-
gates?
Mr. Clift. You read the minutes of the meeting.
Mr. Ivennedy. You ought to know how you are selected.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5325
Mr. Clift. It is to be approved at a regular meeting.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Are the delegates to the international convention
being selected by a vote at a regular meeting of the local union?
There are two ways they can be sent to Miami. One is selected by
vote at a regular meeting of the union. Are you following that pro-
cedure ?
Mr. Clift. No. We are selected by the executive board of the local
union.
Mr. Kennedy. So, that is out. You are going the second way, as I
understand it:
Or such delegates may be appointed by the executive board of the local
union if so authorized by a vote of the local-union membership at a regular
meeting.
Were you authorized before February of 1957, or was the executive
board authorized, to select the delegates to the meeting in Miami?
[Reading :]
Or such delegates may be appointed by the executive board of the local union
if so authorized by a vote of the local-union membership at a regular meeting.
Were you authorized to select the delegates ?
Mr. Clift. Right now, I can't recall.
Mr. I^NNEDY. We can't find anythmg like that — any authorization
being given to you.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Clift. Normally, and this is the way it usually works
Mr. IvENNEDY. I am not asking for that. This is the constitution of
the teamsters.
Mr. Clift, Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what we are trying to find out. Under the
constitution, not how you normally do it.
Mr. Clift. O. K.
Mr. Kennedy. It says :
All convention delegates except substitutes delegates shall be selected during
the period from the receipt by the union of the convention call up to the 30th
day preceding the 1st day of the convention.
So it is already too late for you to select your delegates if it is going
to be tonight. Are you aware of that? If you selected them back
in February 1957, you selected them too soon. If you selected them
tonight, you select them too late. Either way, it is illegal.
Mr. Clift. It is illegal.
Mr. Kennedy. Under your constitution, if you pay any attention
to your constitution.
Mr. Clift. I think the constitution says the executive board has
the right to appoint.
Mr. Kennedy. I read that to you.
Mr. Clift. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy (reading) :
May be appointed by the executive board of the local union if so authorized by
a vote of the local union membership.
We cannot find anyplace that the membership autliorized that.
Then, in addition to that, I would like to point out that they have to
be selected and elected up to the 30th day preceding the 1st day of
the convention, and the 1st day of the convention is in 4 or 5 days.
So, you are 25 too late.
5326 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Clift. Pardon me.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Clift. Mr. Kennedy, I would like at this time to let you have
the union lawyers iron that thing out. It is a constitutional matter
concerning the international teamsters.
Mr. IvEXNEDY. You are a delegate.
The Chairman. The constitution, as read, would determine how
the delegates might be properly selected and elected. According to
your testimony and according to the reading of the constitution, you
are not proceeding in this election. Your election as a delegate is
not in conformity with either provision of the constitution. I as-
sume that you officers who have responsible positions know what the
constitution provides and that you would want to conform to it. Do
you know that, under the constitution, you have not yet been legally
elected ?
Mr. Clift. Senator, I still say I would like to have the union at-
torneys iron that matter out.
The Chairman. We are trying to help you a little to iron it out.
Mr. Clift. I think we have attorneys that can do it.
Senator Mundt. You have somewhat of a personal interest in this.
You are going to be a delegate down there. You can't get seated if
you are not seated according to the constitution if somebody chal-
lenges you. You don't want to go down to Miami and have the door
slammed in your face.
Mr. Clift. I will take a chance on my attorneys.
Senator Mundt. You will be the delegate. The attorney will not
be a delegate. You will be down there, and they will say, "What
are you doing around here; you are not in conformity with the
constitution?" Somebody may get up and say, "We believe in the
constitution of the teamsters."
Mr. Clift. Will you excuse me 1 second, Senator ?
Senator Mundt. Surely.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Clift. Senator, I am very sorry. I made a mistake a moment
ago. You read from the minutes of the February meeting, where
the delegates were picked ; is that right?
Mr. Kennedy. Elected by the executive board.
The Chairman (reading) :
President Brennan advised ttie board that the international union advised
the local they would be allowed 12 delegates to the international convention in
the fail. Brother James Clift made a motion, supported by Brother Walter
Schuler. that the personnel of local union No. 337, comprised of Bert Brennan,
James Langley, Robert Holmes, Frank Yezbec, James Clift, Walter Schuler.
Charles Burge, Allen Balfour, Cecil Watts, Morris Coleman, Louis Desser, and
George Danuk, be elected as delegates to attend the international conference
this fail. Motion carried unanimously.
This says elected. It doesn't srj nominated or recommended or to
be submitted to any general meeting or anything else. This says
elected. I don't know whether you contend that was or was not an
election.
Mr. Clift. It was an election.
The Chairman. It was.
JSIr. Clift. Senator, tonight the meeting is called to reconfirm the
executive board's decision.
The Chairman. Reconfirm?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5327
Mr. Clitt. Eight.
The Chairman. If the executive board action was illegal and taken
at the improper time and not in conformity to the constitution, and
the constitution provides that such confirmation or election must be
done 30 days before the convening of the convention, I don't know
how you are going to get yourself legal.
Mr, Clift. Senator, I will leave that to our attorneys.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator McNamara. Does local 337 have a constitution and bylaws ?
Mr. Clift. Yes, they do.
Senator McNamara. Do you have a copy of it ?
Mr. Clift. Not with me.
Senator McNamara. Does your attorney have a copy of it ?
Mr. Clift. I doubt it.
Mr. McNamara. Does the staff have a copy ?
Mr. Kennedy. No.
Senator McNamara. I would expect this thing might be resolved
if we had a copy of the local bylaws. It might tie in with the inter-
national bylaws. Unfortunately we don't have a copy available.
Senator Mundt. Senator, do you think it would be possible for a
local to have bylaws in conflict with the internatioanl union?
Senator McNamara. No ; I think you have authority to have local
bylaws if they do not conflict.
Senator Mundt. They would conflict if they provided for less than
30 days.
Senator McNamara. They could include in the local bylaws the
authority to delegate in advance to the executive board the authority
to make the recommendation subject to approval.
Senator Mundt. I think the national constitution would have to
prevail unless there is something which specifically says that a local
constitution may be adopted in complete defiance of the national con-
stitution. I think whatever they adopt tliey would have to conform
to the 30-day rule.
Senator McNamara. I think that is so. That is why I was asking
for it.
Senator Mundt. I am sure if they produce it, they will find it is in
conformity with the national constitution but apparently what they
have done here is violated the provision. Is it your case, Mr. Clift,
that I read about in the newspaper the other day — that some law3^er
is challenging the convention because of illegal delegates?
Mr. Clift. I don't think it was my case. I don't think I made the
papers in quite a few years.
Senator Mundt. I am not saying you individually. I am saying
this group, according to your constitution, has no status or standing.
It cannot become legal constitutionally now because the 30-day period
has elapsed.
Mr. Clift. I can't understand your question on that.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell me whether local 299 of which Mr.
Ploffa is a delegate, if their delegates were elected the same way as
337's were elected ?
Mr. Clift. I can't answer that.
Mr. Kennedy. I just want to say for the record, Mr. Chairman,
that the call for the convention went out on either June 2, 3, or 4,
and accordins to the constitution the delea-ates cannot be selected
5328 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IIST THE LABOR FIELD
prior to the time that the call for the convention goes out. So they
could not be selected back in February because the call, as I say, for
the convention did not go out until either June 2, 3, or 4, and they
cannot be selected now because of the fact that the 30 days has
elapsed.
The Chairman. The Chair will order the two sections of the con-
stitution to which we have referred printed in the record at this
point.
(The sections referred to follow :)
Section 5, All delegates to the international convention shall be selected by
vote at a regular meeting of the local union, or such delegates may be appointed
by the executive board of the local union if so authorized by a vote of the local
union membership at a regular meeting. All convention delegates, except
substitute delegates, shall be selected during the period from the receipt by
the union of the convention call up to the 30th day preceding the 1st day of
the convention. In the event of disability of a delegate selected by a local
union to attend the convention, the executive board of that local union may
appoint a substitute to replace such delegate. Each delegate or substitute
must be an active member working at the craft. This, however, must not be
construed so as to bar the election of salaried oflScers of local unions or officers
of the international union. All international officers and organizers who have
worked continuously for 1 year or more shall be entitled to all the privileges
of regularly credentialed delegates ; provided that this shall not be construed
to make eligible for international office an organizer who is not otherwise
eligible through having worked at the craft for such a length of time as to
have made him eligible for international office as in this constitution provided.
Section 6. (a) The secretary-treasurer of each local shall, immediately after
the election of delegates, forward their names to the general secretary-treasurer,
who shall publish a list of delegates. Each delegate shall present his creden-
tials, properly signed by the president and secretary-treasurer, and the seal of
the local union shall be impressed thereon. He shall also present his member-
ship card, establishing that he is a member in good standing and entitled to a
seat in the convention.
(b) All credentials must be in the general office 30 days prior to the opening
of the convention.
Senator McNamara. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a request
that I be furnished with a copy of the local 337 constitution and by-
laws.
Mr. Clift. I will have to mail it to you. Senator.
The Chairman. Mail an extra copy for the conmiittee will you?
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Clift, just one other question. Do you know
how many business agents such as you made loans along about that
timetoMr.Hoffa?
Mr. Clift. No, I don't. Senator.
The Chairman. In view of the third one now who has testified
that he has made a loan and got their money back about 5 years
later, nothing had ever been said about it ; no one mentioned it ; it is
a little strange coincidence that such business transactions are carried
on that way. I wonder if you can in any way throw any further
light on it that might give us a better understanding of how it
occurred ?
Mr. Clift. The only way I can answer you like that, it is great to
have friends.
The Chairman. To what?
Mr. Clift. It is great to have friends.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5329
The Chairman. Have you got another one like that that you
loaned $2,000 to ?
Mr. Clift. Maybe one.
The Chairman. Would you mind naming him ? I don't think it is
important.
Mr. Clift. I don't think so.
The Chairman. You would not want to talk about that ?
Mr. Clift. I don't think so.
The Chairman. We may find out about it, and ask you later. All
right, go ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. Just one question. You appeared before the Cooli-
han grand jury ; did you ?
Mr. Clift. Not before the grand jury. Before a committee, I
think.
Mr. Kennedy. Before a committee ?
Mr. Clift. Not the Coolihan grand jury.
Mr. Ejennedy. What committee did you appear before ?
Mr. Cleft. Wliat committee ? I was called in and asked a question
on the thousand dollars, I think it was.
Mr, Kj:nnedy. But you never appeared under oath before the
grand jury back in 1953 ?
Mr. Clift. Back when?
Mr. I^NNEDY. Back in 1953.
Mr. Clift. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not appear before a grand jury ?
Mr. Clift. No ; not in session.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know anything about the use of any Mini-
f ons by Mr. Hoffa or any teamster official ?
Mr. Clift. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever hear they purchased any Minif ons ?
Mr. Clift. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever hear that Mr. Hoffa had any Minif ons ?
Mr. Clift. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You never heard any discussion about that ?
Mr. Clift. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. He never mentioned to you that he purchased some?
Mr. Clift. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever had a Minif on on ?
Mr, Clift, I don't know what they look like,
Mr. Kennedy, Have you ever had a Minif on on ?
Mr, Clift. I don't know what they look like,
Mr, Kennedy, Have you ever had a Minif on on ?
Mr. Clift. Never,
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr, Kennedy. Mr, William Bell,
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and notliing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr, Bell, I do.
89330— 57— pt. 14-
5330 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM BELL, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name, place of residence,
and your business or occupation.
Mr. Bell. William Bell. I live at 19816 Murray Hill, Detroit,
Mich.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. You are a business agent, are you, Mr. Bell ?
Mr. Bell. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. For what union ?
Mr. Bell. Local 299.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have been a business agent for how long?
Mr. Bell. Since 1939.
Mr. Kennedy. You made a loan to Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. TYhen was that ?
Mr. Bell. In the latter part of 1952. I believe it was November
or the latter part of October.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that in the teamsters headquarters ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Had he spoken to you about that ?
Mr. Bell. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you ?
Mr. Bell. He just asked me if I had some money that I could spare
and I told him I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Where were you at the time ?
Mr. Bell. I believe I was in the business agents' room in the team-
sters headquarters.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he look "low" ; did he look "down" ?
Mr. Bell. I don't remember if he did.
Mr. Kennedy. He just came in and asked if you had any money
to spare ?
Mr. Bell. He did.
Mr. Kennedy. Had he asked you that question before ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you say? Were you surprised?
Mr. Bell. A little bit at the time, yes; but not necessarily so.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you say ?
Mr. Bell. I said, "Yes ; I have some money."
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you then ?
]Mr. Bell. He asked me if I could not spare about a thousand dollars,
and I told him I could.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you give him a thousand dollars ?
Mr. Bell. Within the next day or two.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get the thousand dollars?
Mr. Bell. At home.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you a bank account ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. But you kept this thousand dollars at home ?
Mr. Bell. I had a thousand at this time at home.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it cash at home ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you keep that in a little box at home ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5331
Mr. Bell, No ; not in a box.
Mr. Kennedy. J ust around the house ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You keep that kind of money around the house ?
Mr. Bell. Not all the time.
Mr. Kennedy. But you brought it in and gave it to Mr. Hoffa ; is
that right?
Mr. Bell. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. When our investigators talked to you out in Detroit,
I believe, you said that Mr. Hoffa had not repaid that money ; is that
right?
Mr. Bell. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he repaid you?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When did he repay you ?
Mr. Bell. Last Thursday.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wliat were the circumstances ?
Mr. Bell. I came in the office Thursday afternoon and I saw Mr.
Grosbeck. He said, "Here, I have some money for you." He handed
me a cashier's check for $1,000, and I signed a receipt.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time from the end of 1952
until last Thursday, had you ever discussed with Mr. Hoffa his repay-
ing you the thousand dollars?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He never mentioned that ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time had you made any loans
or borrowed any money yourself ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir,
Mr. Kennedy. From whom and what amounts ?
Mr. Bell. I financed a car through the Commonwealth Bank. I
borrowed $1,000 from local 299.
Mr. Kennedy. That is local 299 of which Mr. Hoffa is president ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to the time that you borrowed $1,000 from local
299, did you discuss it with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Bell. I asked him for it ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say, "Don't take it from the union. I will
repay the loan to you?"
Mr, Bell. He didn't say that.
Mr, Kennedy, He didn't say that?
Mr. Bell. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss it at all ?
Mr. Bell. He said, "I will O. K. the loan."
Mr. Kennedy. There was not any discussion at all about $1,000?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
]Mr. Kennedy. There was no discussion about it in fact until last
TJnirsday, for 5 years ?
Mr. Bell. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy, No talk about it at all?
Mr. Bell. No ,sir.
, Mr. Kennedy. When he approved the loan from local 299 he didn't
-ay anything about repaying his own personal loan to you?
yiv. Bell, No, sir.
5332 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you ask for the money back from him
rather than getting it from the local ?
Mr. Bell. I just asked him for the loan.
Mr. Kennedy. "Why didn't you ask him for the money back that
you loaned to him ?
Mr. Bell. I just asked him for a loan of $1,000.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't answer the question. Why didn't you
ask him for the money that you had loaned to him? "Why didn't you
ask him for that money back?
Mr. Bell. I just didn't ask him for it.
Mr. Ivennedy. You did in fact loan him the money ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You loaned him the money and yet you went to
local 299 to borrow another $1,000.
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien did you get the loan from local 299 ; June 2,
1953?
Mr. Bell. I believe it was about that time.
Mr. Kennedy. That was some 6 months after you had made the
loan to Hoffa.
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What purpose was the $1,000 loan ?
Mr. Bell. I had just sold one house and I was buying another one.
I just needed a thousand dollars.
Mr. Kennedy. You still have some payments to make on that
house ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any other sources of income other than
your union salary ?
Mr. Bell. I have just a disability compensation.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all ?
Mr. Bell. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. I want to ask you, were you familiar with the fact
that some Minaf ons were purchased by local 299 ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir ; I am not.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever heard of Minaf ons being used ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You have not ?
Mr. Bell. To this extent. I have heard it on television or news-
casts and read it in the newspapers. Personally I don't know any-
thing about it.
Mr. Kennedy. You never used them yourself ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell me, were you working on organizing a laundry
out in Pontiac, Mich., in 1955 ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a laundry out there between Pontiac and
Flint, Mich., that you were trying to organize in 1955 ?
Mr. Bell. Not me ; no, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember that at all ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you on any of the organizational drives that you
had take along Minaf ons with you ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5333
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever have a Minaf on in your car ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever had a Minaf on in your automobile ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Did you ever mention to any teamster member or
official that you used Minaf ons when you interviewed employers ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never did that at all ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you in fact ever use a Minafon when you inter-
viewed an employer ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlien you had difficulty with an employer, did you
tell them it was a good idea to wear a Minafon ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never had a discussion like that ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never had a Minafon in your car ?
Mr. Bell. Not to my knowledge ; I never saw one.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Hoffa never mentioned to you the pur-
chase of these Minaf ons ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never knew anything about it ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you are business agent of his local ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that your local paid the money for
the Minaf ons ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never knew about that ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. I^NNEDY. All right.
Senator McNamara. Are you a delegate from 299 to the national
convention ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Were you nominated or elected or selected by
your executive board ? Are you a member of the board, incidentally ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Senator McNamara. Were you selected by the board ?
Mr. Bell. Under the past practice of local 299, the executive board
makes recommendations and these recommendations are given to the
membership and are voted on by the membership.
Senator McNamara. Has it been ratified yet ?
Mr. Bell. It has been.
Senator McNamara. You then are officially in your estimation a
delegate ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Through that process ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. When did this happen? When did you get
confirmation ?
Mr. Bell. September ; the first meeting in September.
Senator Mundt. September of this year ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
5334 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Senator MuNDT. And when you first nominated ?
Mr. Bell. I believe it was at the executive board meeting in the
first or second week in June.
Senator Mundt. It appears in your case that you have followed the
constitution of the teamsters which says you must be nominated after
June and elected prior to 30 days before the convention.
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. In your case, your union, that apparently was
done.
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Was Mr. Hoffa elected at the same time as a
delegate ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. How many delegates did your local have?
Mr. Bell. I believe we have 18. I am not positive. I believe there
are 18.
Mr. Kennedy. You had a general meeting of the membership, did
you?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that a general membership meeting or individ-
ual shop meetings?
Mr. Bell. Not shop meetings. We call separate meetings of our
three divisions.
Mr. Kennedy. Under the constitution it has to be a general mem-
bership meeting of the local, not individual shop meetings. You
have not had a general membersliip meeting ?
Mr. Bell. We have a general membership meeting of the entire
division of that part of the industry.
Mr. Kennedy. What ?
Mr. Bell. We have general membership meetings of the divisions of
that industry.
Mr. Kennedy. That is not what the constitution says. It says a
regular meeting of the local union. You did not have a meeting of
the whole membership of the union, did you? This action of the
executive board was not ratified by the whole membership of local
299 at a regular meeting ?
Mr. Bell. Our regular meetings have been called for years on the
same date. We have a regular call meeting the first Monday of each
month for the car haul division. The second Sunday of each month
we have a regular call meeting for the highway drivers division.
The second Wednesday night of each month we have a regular call
meeting for local cartage and dock workers and checkers. At these
regular meetings the recommended delegates were confirmed.
Mr. Kennedy. But local 299, which Mr. Hoffa represents, and
which you represent, never had a membership meeting of the mem-
bership of local 299, did you, to ratify the action of the executive
board ?
Mr. Bell. Not to my knowledge, no.
Senator Mundt. Did you have any competition among the dele-
gates or members as to who were to be delegates? Or was the slate
nominated by the executive board unanimously confirmed ?
Mr. Bell. I think all three divisions unanimously approved the
delegates selected by the executive board.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5335
Senator Mundt. There was nobody else running ?
Mr. Bell. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When was the last meeting that you had ?
Mr. Bell. We had some regular call meetings Sunday of this past
week.
Mr. Kennedy. When you approved the selection ?
Mr. Bell. These were approved at the regular call meetings.
Mr. Kennedy. Which was when?
Mr. Bell. The first Monday. We have our meetings canceled
through June, July, and August. So our first regular call meeting
is in September. So at the first regular call meeting is when this
happened.
Mr. Kennedy. When was it that you were approved ? What were
the dates ?
Mr. Bell. It was the second Monday in September.
Mr. Kennedy. The second Monday in September ?
Mr. Bell. Eight.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the last one or that was the first of these
three meetings ?
Mr. Bell. I would have to look at a calendar to know which was
the first. The first Monday being Labor Day in September.
Mr. Ivennedy. That was September 4, I believe.
Mr. Bell. That meeting was postponed until the second Monday.
Mr. Kennedy. So that was September 11.
Mr. Bell. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You say your delegates were selected on Septem-
ber 11?
Mr. Bell. That was the car-haul division.
Mr. Kennedy. When were the others ?
Mr. Bell. The second Wednesday of September was the same rati-
fication.
Mr. Kennedy. If some of the delegates were elected on Septem-
ber 11, even they are ineligible, according to the constitution, because
that is not 30 days preceding the first day of the convention.
Mr. Bell. That has been the practice for years.
Mr. Kennedy. That might have been the practice for years, but it
is not in accordance with the constitution of the international. Would
that mean that Mr. Hoffa was not a delegate to the convention ?
Mr. Bell. That is the way the delegates were approved.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the way Mr. Hoffa was elected ?
Mr. Bell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa was elected at the same time and under
the same procedure ; is that right ?
Mr. Bell. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Then you were not selected in conformity with the
constitution, as I said formerly, because you have to be elected and
confirmed prior to the 30th day before the convention. September 14
or September 11 is not 30 days before the convention.
Mr. Bell. Could I confer with counsel for one moment ?
Senator Mundt. Surely.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Bell. I don't know whether it is legal or not, sir, but that is
the way it has been done. So it is up to the attorneys to figure that
out.
5336 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. I am not trying to put you on the spot. I am
thinking of Mr. Hoffa, because according to your testimony he is not
legally a delegate to the convention in Miami, according to the con-
stitution of the international teamsters, unless he was finalized in this
electoral process set up by the constitution. There is not much use
having a constitution unless somebody pays attention to it. The chro-
nology of it which you have given us shows tliat he was finalized along
with you less than 30 days before the convention. According to the
constitution, he is not and you are not legally elected delegates to the
convention in Miami, according to the constitution of the teamsters.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I would like to object to that question on the
grounds it has no pertinency to this particular inquiry.
Senator Mundt. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman. This particular
inquiry is devoted to whether or not there are improper practices in
labor unions. If violating a constitution is not improper, I do not
know what is.
The Chairman. Would the Senator state the question again? I
had my attention occupied at the moment.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I will withdraw the objection rather than have a
discussion about it.
Senator Mundt. It is a completely extraneous objection, Mr. Fitz-
gerald, and you know that, because the committee is set up to study
whether or not there are improper practices in labor unions. You are
telling us that violating a constitution is not improper.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't think Mr. Mundt has any right to char-
acterize something as legal or illegal. It is not a question if he says
something that characterizes the election of a delegate as legal or
illegal.
Senator Mundt. I have a right to say anything I want to. It may
or may not suit you. I am sitting as a member of the committee. I
should have said constitutional or unconstitutional, but obviously it is
not constitutional when you violate the terms of the constitution
written by the teamsters themselves.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I merely state my objection that the opinion
of Senator Mundt on whether something is constitutional or uncon-
stitutional with respect to the teamsters convention or the operation
of the teamsters union is not a pertinent question, and is not a per-
tinent inquiry, as far as this investigation is concerned. That was
my objection.
The Chairman. The Chair would rule that any interrogation as to
the conduct of elections to select delegates under the constitution is a
proper subject matter of the inquiry of this committee. In other
words, this committee, I have stated as chairman, and I think most
members of the committee have agreed with me, if not all, that one of
the things we are concerned about are the democratic processes of
unionism, and to ascertain what practices now prevail, or any infrac-
tions of what the committee may regard at least as proper democratic
processes is a subject that the committee has a right to be concerned
about. All right.
Senator Mundt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Quite obviously if it
should be held that this committee has no concern about violation of
union constitutions by union officials we might as well close up shop
and go fishing. That is precisely what we are in business for, among
other things.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5337
The Chairman, I would like to go fishing, all right.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Bell has been a very cooperative witness, and
I am not trying to extract from you legal interpretations. I appre-
ciate the fact you have been forthright and responsive to the questions
to the best of your knowledge. Perhaps you can throw some light on
this. This has kind of stimulated my curiosity. I just cannot quite
understand this epidemic of repayments of slow debts that has hit
Detroit at once as of last Thursday and Friday. Did Mr. Grosberg
say anything to you about what good fortune came to Mr. Hoffal
Did he have an oil strike in North Dakota ? Did his horse come in ?
Did he come to indicate how come the money was available after all
these years ?
Mr. Bell. He didn't say.
Senator Mundt. And you were so glad you did not ask ?
Mr. Bell. I didn't ask him any questions.
Senator Mundt. All right.
Senator McNamara. I would like to ask the counsel a question, if
I may. Is that proper ?
The Chairman. You may.
Senator McNamara. Will there be a credentials committee at this
convention, and is that the general situation, and will they rule as
to whether or not the delegates are properly elected, and is that ac-
cording to the constitution ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is right. The credentials committee of the
convention will make the recommendations to the convention, and
the convention will then decide, if there are objections, whether or
not certain delegates should or should not be seated. They may follow
or may disregard the recommendations of the credentials committee.
That is the sum and substance of the whole thing.
Senator McNamara. And then it would be assumed that if the
delegates were not properly elected it would be so ruled as improper.
Does this credentials committee have the authority to seat them even
though they might be technically improperly elected ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I think the credentials committee only has the
authority to pass upon the credentials of the delegates. If there is
an objection to them, then it goes to the convention eventually, and
the convention is the sole determinative factor of who shall constitute
the convention.
Senator McNamara. You think their authority is limited to ex-
amining the docmnents and seeing if they are proper ; is that correct ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I think that is so, and there may be other func-
tions that they would perform, but eventually if there is any appeal,
or any objections filed to any delegates, it would go from the creden-
tials committee to the floor of the convention itself.
Senator McNamara. There is that step to go through ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. We have also had a few argmnents in political
conventions on the seating of delegates.
Senator McNamara. I think I have heard something about it.
Senator Mundt. May I ask a question of Mr. Fitzgerald ?
As the attorney, maybe not for the international, and I do not
know, but as an attorney for the union, I think maybe you can answer
this question: Does the credentials committee have authority to go
beyond the constitution of the teamsters union, and do they have a
5338 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
plenary authority higher than that of the constitution itself? Can
they violate it if they want to ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't know what the authority of the credentials
committee is. I have never been fortunate enough to be hired by
the international union, and I wouldn't know. But I would say that
the constitution would be the law and it would have to be followed
by both the credentials committee and the convention itself until a
new constitution is adopted.
Senator Mundt. That would be my conclusion.
We had a colloquy a few minutes ago with one of the witnesses
about the power of the local union to adopt bylaws, I would like
to read article 21, section 1, of the international constitution of the
International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen,
and Helpers of America. It states this —
Each local union shall have the right to make such bylaws as it may deem
advisable, providing they do not conflict with the laws of the international
union.
So I believe my hypothesis is correct. That is that the superior
constitution in all cases is that of the international organization.
Senator McNamara. I would not want to disagree with such dis-
tinguished counsel, but it appears to me that the national convention,
being a constitutional convention, is the highest possible authority of
the organiaztion.
Mr. Fitzgerald. You mean the convention itself?
Senator McNamara. Yes, and I think that supersedes everything.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That supersedes everything, because the constitu-
tion is nothing more than the creature of the convention.
Senator McNamara. I think that you overstated it.
Mr, Fitzgerald. I didn't mean to state that. I see what you mean.
Senator Mundt. There is no dispute. My question dealt with the
credentials committee, and not the power of the convention itself.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I think the convention itself would have the right,
as Senator McNamara said, eventually, if they wanted to, to override
the constitution, perhaps.
Senator Mundt. I presume that the constitution establishes the
ground rules by which even the convention has to move.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Up to a point, yes.
Senator Mundt. And the convention cannot, by a simple motion,
just say "We are going to discard the constitution, and we are going
to seat any delegates we want to, regardless of the convention."
There must be something in the book that says this is the way you
have to proceed to amend the constitution.
Mr, Fitzgerald. I have heard you say "as one country boy to
another," and I am just a country boy from Detroit when it comes
to this international thing.
Senator Mundt. You do not have the farm problem in Detroit
we have in other places.
jNIr. Fitzgerald. You would have to get some higher authority
than myself.
The Chairman. Let us move on.
I want to ask the witness one question. Can you tell us the name
of the bank the cashier's check that you received in repayment was
to?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5339
Mr. Bell. I believe it was the City Bank of Detroit.
The Chairman. Do you know how the cashier's check was pro-
cured ?
Mr. Bell. No, I do not.
The Chairman. You do not know whether it was procured by cash
or by check on some other account ?
Mr. Bell. I do not.
The Chairman. You have no information about it ?
Mr. Bell. No.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
All right, you may stand aside.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Frank Fitzsimmons.
The Chairman. Will you come around, please.
Mr. Kennedy. He will be the last witness today, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK E. FITZSIMMONS, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL GEOKGE S. FITZGERALD
The Charman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. My name is Frank Fitzsimmons, and I live at
1560 Burkcrest, Dearborn, Mich. It am vice president and business
representative of Local Union No. 299, of Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. All right, sir. Mr. Fitzgerald represents you,
does he ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes.
The Chairman. As your counsel here ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Fitzsimmons, you made a loan to Mr.
Hoffa,didyou?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir ; I did
Mr. Kennedy. How much was that loan ?
Mr. FrrzsiMMONS. $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think it was the first week or second week of
1953.
Mr. Kennedy. You were in the teamsters headquarters, were you?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Hoff a had a conversation with you ?
Mr, Fitzsimmons. Yes, he did.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Well, to be exact, I can't recall verbatim each
word, but I am quite sure the conversation went on the basis that
we got discussing 1 or 2 matters, and as a result of it he finally told
me that he was in a position he needed a little help. So I asked him
what kind of help and he said a little financially.
I said "Jim, if there is anything I can do for you, I will help you
out in any way I can."
5340 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
On that basis, the discussion went on about the amount of money^
and he mentioned $2,000, and I agreed to give it to him.
The Chairman. Was it $2,000 or $1,000 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. So he said he needed $2,000 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes; he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go back down to the bank and get the $2,000 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliere did you go to get your $2,000 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That evening I went home, and the result of it
was the next day I had the money and I brought it down to the office
and I gave it to him.
Mr. KENNEDY. Do you have a bank account ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You happened to have kept this cash at home?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I usually keep cash at home.
Mr. Kennedy. In a little box at home ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Just around the house?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes.
Mr. Ej^nnedy. Is that right?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you brought that down to him the next day
and gave it to him in cash ?
Mr. FITZSIMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. And he thanked you for it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, he did.
Mr. Kennedy. When we discussed this out in Detroit, he had not
repaid you this $2,000.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. Has he repaid you now ?
Mr. Fitzsim:m()xs. Yes, he has.
Mr. Kennedy. When did he repay you ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. Last week, the latter part.
Mr. KJENNEDY. What day ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I am quite sure it was Thursday or Friday.
Mr. Kennedy. How did he repay you ?
Mr. FiTzsLBiMONS. I was aromid the office and Mr. Grosberg came
up to me, and he said he had a check in payment of my loan, a
cashier's check, drawn on the City Bank. And I signed a receipt for
the check.
Mr. Kennedy. That was for the money that you allegedly gave Mr.
Hoffainl952?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I did give Mr. Hoffa in 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. $2,000?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. KIennedy. Had you received any note for the $2,000 that you
had loaned Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he pay any interest on it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, he didn't.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Had you ever discussed it during this 5-year period ?
Mr. FITZSIMMONS. As far as discussion, no. There is a possibility
we mentioned it back and forth between each other.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5341
Mr. Kennedy. But you never asked him for the money ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Not directly.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you indirectly ask him for the money ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Somewhere along the line, there is a possibility
that I mentioned it to him, and I can't recall that I ever asked him for
it or not.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Now you had made some loans yourself, borrowed
some money yourself, during this 5-year period, had you not?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. At the time on August 28, 1952, you had an out-
standing loan of approximately $1,800, did you not ?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONS. I think that I had.
Mr. Kennedy. That was at the same time you were giving Jimmy
Hoffa $2,000, according to your testimony ?
Mr. JFiTzsiMMONS. Not the same time. It was 1952.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Well, August 28, 1952, you borrowed $1,830, and the
balance due on that loan, on November 6, 1952, was $1,700, and_ on
January 7 it was $1,694, and so you owed at least $1,600 at the time
that you were, according to your testimony, loaning $2,000 to Jinuny
Hoffa?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I think, Mr. Kennedy, if I may ask, you have
the record, is that a financing of an automobile ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I believe it is.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. And that is a car for my son, and I signed for it
and he was meeting the obligations.
Mr. Kennedy. What is your son's name ?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONs. Donald.
Mr. Kennedy. Donald Fitzsimmons ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to come back to him in a moment, but
you had another loan in 1956, did you not? And you borrowed some
more money ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think that I also signed for his car at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. That is $1,400 ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir. And it was last year.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, I believe the date is August 28, 1956.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think that is my wife's car.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you borrowed any other money from January of
1953 to last Thursday?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, I think that I borrowed some other money.
Mr. Kennedy. Where was that ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I borrowed some at the City Bank.
Mr. Kennedy. How much was that ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think there was one loan for $2,500, to help
;my son out in some business.
Mr. Kennedy. What was his business ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Trucking business.
Mr. Ivennedy. Your son was in the trucking business ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the name of the trucking company?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Theater Trucking Co.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliich son was that ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Richard.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Richard?
5342 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. If I am not mistaken.
Mr. Kennedy. He had some partners in that, did he ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that the one Mrs. Hoffa was interested in ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No.
Mr. Kennedy. She never had an interest in that ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No. As far as my son was concerned, he was
working with the people.
Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. The one Mrs. Hoffa was concerned with, the origi-
nation of it was Mr. Staley and Mr. Mnrrer and Mrs. Hoffa, and
Josephine Poszywak.
Mr. Kennedy. She was in there under the name of Josephine
Poszywak ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Originally.
Mr. Kennedy. This was Theater Trucking ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And then your son Ricliard got into it ; is that right ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No ; he didn't get into the company as such. He
worked with the company.
JVIr. Kennedy. He worked for the company. Did your son Donald
have an interest in it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No; I don't think that Donald had an interest
in it at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ever ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. I would have to check the records.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know that?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. Your nephew was interested in it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Dale Patrick ?
Mr. FiTzsiM]M0NS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So your son Eichard and your nephew. Dale Pat-
rick, and you are going to check whether your son Donald did?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I said so far as Richard was concerned. I don't
know whether he had an interest or was employed.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Dale Patrick in it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. He was.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Holmes' son in it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Mr. Holmes' son ?
Mr. IvENNEDY. Was Mr. Holmes' son in it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Was any relative of Mr. Holmes interested in it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. Mr. Holmes brother worked for the company.
Mr. IvENNEDY. His brother ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What is Mr. Holmes' position ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. John Holmes, that is his brother.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Robert Holmes ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. He is secretary treasurer of local 337.
Mr. Kennedy. So his brother was in this company, also, is that
right ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. He was employed by the company.
Mr. Kennedy. And you say John Staley ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5343
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. John Staley had an interest in the company ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Originally he had, yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What is John Staley's position? Are any of his
relatives connected with the teamsters union ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, and my brother-in-law.
Mr. Kennedy. You had your nephew, and your brother-in-law, and
a son
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I had, you say ?
IMr. Kennedy. Your nephew, your brother-in-law, and your son
worked for the company, and your other son you are going to check
and see if he had an interest in the company ?
I\Ir. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make any loans to that company ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Sir?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make any loans to the company ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Not that I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember that?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't loan $7,000 to the company ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. According to their schedule of their notes, loans and
contracts, by certified public accountants, Arnoff & Grosberg — I be-
lieve that is the firm that keeps the books of the union, isn't that
correct ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. According to them, this Theater Trucking Service
owed you $7,000 as of June 30, 1953, and you say you don't know any-
thing about that?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. In 1953?
Mr. Ivennedy. Yes. It says here $7,000.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Now, as far as the Theater Trucking Service
OAving me $7,000, I just wonder if you meant that a direct loan. I
was directly responsible for them getting financing, and what the
amount was I don't laiow, and I would have to check it.
Mr. Ivennedy. Give me the details on that, please.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Well, I was successful in getting them some
financial aid.
Mr, Kennedy. From where?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Friends of mine.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get the money ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As I say, from friends of mine.
Mr, Kennedy. Where ? I want to laiow where.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I can't remember where I got the money right
now, but I will check and let you know.
Mr. Ivennedy. According to these records, and according to your
testimony, you owed them $7,000 in 1953.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. You say they owed me ?
Mr. Kennedy. The Theater Trucking Co. owed you $7,000, and you
say you, in turn, got that $7,000 from someone else.
Mr, FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio did you get it from ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As I say, I would have to check my recoi ds, Mr.
Kennedy.
5344 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. K!ennedy. You were asked to produce all of your records.
You have been asked to produce your records for the last 2 weeks,
and would that be contained in those records ?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONS. It would be contained in the records. You asked
me to produce my internal revenue records.
Mr. Kennedy. And whatever other records you had.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I wasn't under that impression.
Mr. Kj^nnedy, Do you have other records, Mr. Fitzsimmons ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I can check so far as the other records are con-
cerned, and confirm this amount of money.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have other records that would show this
money ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. As far as records absolute to show this money,
I am quite sure that I can check and find out where this money ar-
rived from.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Fitzsimmons, you must know. This is 4 years
ago and you must know where you got $7,000. Tell me this: Did
the Theater Trucking Co. pay you back the $7,000 ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir; they didn't.
Mr. IvENNEDY. And then you have never paid these people, and you
owe these people then $7,000, is that right? That is this person or
friend of yours who loaned you the money ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Well, as far as the person who owes the money,
yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is it ? You must know whom you owe $7,000 to.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. May I speak to Mr. Fitzgerald a moment?
The Chairman. You can as to your legal rights, but I do not know
that he could help you with this. Do you think that he could?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. There is a possibility he could.
The Chairman. I do not believe Mr. Fitzgerald would undertake
to help you other than to advise you as to your legal rights, so you may
consult with him.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Fitzsimmons. What date was that ?
The Chairman. It shows that on June 30, 1953, this trucking com-
pany owed you $7,000. I do not know how long it had owed you that,
or whether it has paid you, or what.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Well, I borrowed, I think it was, $3,000 from
the City Bank. I think that was the latter part of 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, that couldn't be part of it, because they also
owed you the money back in 1951.
The Chairman. Let me ask you a question. Did you loan them
$7,000 ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. As far as the loaning them $7,000, Mr. McClellan,
I can't be sure of the amount of money.
The Chairman. Did you loan them any money ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I lent them some money, and I was instrumental
in getting some other money from some other source.
The Chairman. Did you get any evidence of that indebtedness ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. As far as my indebtedness was concerned, I had
a note for it.
The Chairman, Wliere is the note now ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. It is gone.
The Chairman. Where is it g-one to ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5345
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I don't know where it has gone, and I just haven't
got it.
The Chairman. Was it ever paid ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir ; it wasn't.
The Chairman. Did you ever get any interest on it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir.
The Chairman. What happened to it? You do not just throw
around notes like that and never do anythmg about it, and you do not
lose $7,000.
Mr. FiTZSiMMONS. As I say, I didn't have the note for $7,000, and
it was some other folks that did loan them some money.
The Chairman. Let us trace this $7,000, and I am not sure where
it came from. There are some sources it could come from which we
would be very interested in. Where did it come from?
Will it refresh you recollection a little to suggest it was union funds ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No.
The Chairman. Would that not help you ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, it would not.
The Chairman. Then you tell where it came from.
Are you completely stalled ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I am not completely stalled.
The Chairman. All right, let us move along.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I would like, as far as the record is concerned,
if you say that some people are indebted to me for $7,000
The Chairman. That is what they certify, and their accountant,
this same man, and this is the same man paying off these debts, is
this Grosberg. Is Grosberg the same man that paid you back the
$2,000?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, he is.
The Chairman. All right, you know him, and he certifies that here,
and I guess he would not certify to anything that was not true. He
certifies here in his audit of this company, that as of June 30, 1953,
it owed you $7,000. Wliat is your explanation of it?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. The only explanation I can make of this $7,000
is that I told you I know that I lent them some money, and as far as
I am concerned at the moment I can't say it has ever been paid back.
The Chairman. Have you ever done anything to get it back ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I constantly told them I wanted my money back.
The Chairman. How much did you tell them that they owed you ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Excuse me, please.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Mr. Chairman, in my position, as I say, I cannot
at the moment recall this entire transaction.
The Chairman. Can you recall where you got it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. If you will allow me to check back on this, I am
quite sure
The Chairman. I am going to allow you to check, but I am going
to interrogate you now about it. Did you borrow the money from
some employer, or get it from some employer with whom the union
had a contract or does business ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir ; I didn't.
The Chairman. You did not get it from any employer ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir.
89330 — 57 — pt. 14 5
5346 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. All right. Did you get it from a bank ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. There is a possibility I got a portion of this
money from some bank.
The Chairman. Where did you get the other portion ? What possi-
bility is there about it ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is the reason why I asked the Chair if I
could check back on this.
The Chairman. I am going to give you a chance to check back, but
I am going to interrogate you now about it.
Did you get any of it from union funds ?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONS. No, sir.
The Chairman. None of it from any employer ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. No, sir.
The Chairman. Any of it from a bank ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. A certain portion.
The Chairman. Can you estimate the portion ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. I estimated the portion I got from the bank, if
I am not mistaken, it was around $3,000.
The Chairman. Where did you get the other $4,000 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. As I said, from some other sources, and I would
like to check back on this whole program to find out where I got the
money from.
The Chairman. Let me ask you further : Had this all escaped your
mind, that they ever owed you $7,000 ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir, it hasn't.
The Chairman. When you were first asked about it, you could not
remember it, just a few moments ago. Now, you saj^ that you were
there at all times to get your money back.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. If I said that, I said it in error, and I didn't
understand exactly what you were asking.
The Chairman. You do remember it now ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You remember they still owe you ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You remember you had a note for it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think that I said that I had a note for a portion
of it.
The Chairman. How much ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is the $3,000. I don't know whether it is
$3,000 or $3,500, Senator.
The Chairman. Wliat did you do with the note ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. At the moment I can't find the note.
The Chairman. Wlien did you last look for it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I can't say exactly the day I looked for it as such,
because I think that I can reproduce the note.
The Chairman. You think you can find the note ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Well, how often have you looked for it ?
Let us move along, please. The Chair wants to be patient and con-
siderate, but I do not know. Maybe I am mistaken, and maybe a
$7,000 loan or transaction is nothing to you, and I do not know. But
I would think maybe it was worth something and that you would
have some knowledge about it and could explain it.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5347
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As far as the situation is concerned, and if I knew
this was going to be brought up at this time, I would surely
The Chairman, How did you loan them the money ? Did you give
them a check ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. At this moment I cannot say. As far as say-
ing
The Chaieman. Did you have that much cash on hand and gave it
to them out or cash ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Not necessarily.
The Chairman. Not necessarily ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No.
The Chairman. Did you or did you not, or did you give a check?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I gave them a check or else make a loan and
cashed the loan I got, and gave them the cash.
The Chairman. You just do not remember?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I, at this moment, can't.
The Chairman. I believe it would be well for you to make every
effort to recall about it, because I think it may become very, very im-
portant, probably pretty important to you.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. All right, sir.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Fitzsimmons, see if you can straighten me out
on this. You loaned $1,000 to Jim Hofla.
The Chairman. $2,000.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. $2,000.
Senator Mundt. In what year ? 1952 ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No ; 1953.
Senator Mundt. And you testified he paid you back last Thursday ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Then you loaned another $7,000 directly, and by
being responsible for what others may have loaned to the company,
and another $7,000 to the theater company in which Mrs. Hoffa was a
one-third partner ; is that right ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes.
Senator Mundt. I think you should think hard about this. This
can mean that Jim Hoffa or Mrs. Hoffa owes you a third of another
$7,000, and this seems to be the time for wiping out those debts. You
can go back to Mr. Grosberg and say, "How about another check, and
get this third for which Holfa's wife is responsible. I am sure a good
country lawyer like Fitzgerald will agree, lawyers like to collect their
fees while the tears are still on the cheeks of the clients. This seems
to be the time to pay up. If you get the third that Mrs. Hoffa owes
you, that is another $2,000 or $2,300, and it ought to be of concern to
you to get it.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. I would look around to try to find that note.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. All right, sir.
Senator Mundt. Do you have some idea where to look ? Have you
got a safety deposit box or someplace where you put valuable papers ?
Mr. Fitzimmons. I think I can reproduce it. Senator.
Senator Mundt. By tomorrow ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No ; I couldn't, because I don't have my records
with me.
Senator Mundt. You think you can reproduce it ?
5348 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. And you are sure it has not been paid ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. To the best of my knowledge, it has not.
Senator Mundt. When Mr. Grosberg called you in Thursday, he
didn't say here is the part Mrs. Hoffa owes you ? You just got one
check. You are sure of that ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. As I understand, you mentioned before about people
that had given you the money in order for you to give it to Theater
Trucking. You can't think of any of the people that gave you that
money ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Mr. Kennedy, I said I was responsible for some
other sources.
Mr. Kennedy. What?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I think I said I was responsible for some other
money being lent to the theater company.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell us about that ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Again you are going to ask me the question. As
far as I am concerned, I can't verify the fact and amount; and if I
can bring that back at the same time I bring this information, I would
be glad to do so.
Mr. Kennedy. That is apart from the $7,000 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is included in the $7,000 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is what I understand.
Mr. Kennedy. What do you mean as you understand? Nobody
knows better than you.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. You said I owed $7,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Then somebody else owes you.
Mr, FiTzsiMMONS. Excuse me. I am getting a little confused here.
You say that Theater Trucking owes me $7,000.
Mr. Kennedy. That is right. You arranged for somebody to finance
or put in some money in Theater Trucking ; is that right ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I said I arranged or was responsible for some
other people to lend them some money.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio were they ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. At this time, as I say, I don't want to verify that
fact, because at the moment
Mr. Kennedy. If you remember, tell the committee what their names
were.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS, As I say, I would like to bring that back at the
same time, so I can be sure of my grounds.
Mr. Kennedy. I think, Mr. Chairman, he has the answer.
The Chairman. The question is. Do you remember now who you
got that money from ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. At the moment, Mr. McClellan, no.
The Chairman. You do not know who you got the money from to
let them have $7,000?
Mr. FITZSIMMONS. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you have any of your own money to loan at
that time?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Not to that extent, no.
The Chairman. Not to that extent ? To what extent ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5349
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. $7,000.
The Chairman. How much ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. $7,000.
The Chairman. You didn't have $7,000 to loan at that time, did
you?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you have any money to loan ? Isn't it a fact
you were in debt at that time ?
Mr. FITZSIMMONS. Well, I
The Chairman. Did you have a lot of money lying around the
house or in the bank ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Not lots of it ; no.
The Chairman. All right. Then you got it somehow. Will you
tell this committee under oath now that you cannot recall from whom
you got that money that you advanced to this company ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. As I say, to the best of my knowledge I borrowed
it somewhere from a bank. As far as the individuals are concerned,
I don't think this committee, as well as myself, is interested in prob-
abilities. I would like to have
The Chairman. We are interested in getting the facts.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is right.
The Chairman. That is what we are trying to get.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I am going to try to give you the facts and will
give you the facts.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that if you
borrowed some money from some other person that you presently owe
them that money, is that right ? You presently owe some people some
money ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I would like to say at this time, Mr. Kennedy, as I
said before, I was responsible for
Mr. Kennedy. Just answer the question. Don't you owe these peo-
ple the money that you got from them to give to Theater Trucking ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Morally I presume I have an obligation.
Mr. Kennedy. Have they ever discussed that with you ?
(No response.)
The Chairman. Have any of them that you got the money from
come to you and tried to get it back ? It is just as simple as that.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I owe different people money, and, yes, they
have from time to time.
The Chairman. Then you remember who they are. Who are they ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No. As I said before, I owe different people
some money for a period of time. To verify the fact of the indi-
viduals I am speaking of, I ask
The Chairman. What records have you that will show it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think I can check back with the people who are
involved with the loan at that time.
The Chairman. If you are going to check back with them, you
know who they are. How are you going to check if you don't know
them?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I said I could check back with Patrick and the
people in the company at that time. I am quite sure I can verify the
people whose money this is concerned with.
5350 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Would they know whom you got the money from
any better than 3'ou ?
Mr. FiTziMMONS. As far as the money is from, I think they will
know where and how the money was lent to them.
The Chaikman. You are a State vice president, are you not, of a
labor organization?
Mr. FiTzsiMMOxs That is right.
The Chairman. You mean you want to leave the record as }■ ou have
here this afternoon that you have transacted business as you have
evidence here in the handling of this transaction ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As far as the evidence is concerned, Mr. Mc-
Clellan, there is only one thing I can say, and I want to say it. I want
to be right whenever I give you the names of people involved.
The Chairman. We want it right, too, but I declare I cannot under-
stand this failure of memory. This is getting a little bit irritating.
All right, Mr. Counsel ; proceed.
Mr. Kj:nnedy. Let me go on. We had a conversation and discussion
with you while in Detroit, and at that time I asked you about certain
testimony that had been given before the Hoflman committee regard-
ing your activities, testimony given by Mr. Craven before the Hoff-
man committee that he had to make a kickback to you of 90 percent of
his business of the Exhibitors' Service Co. for the period of time that
you were the business agent working with the Exhibitors' Service Co.,
and you called a strike and drove him out of business and took over
that business yourself and, together with Mrs. Hoffa and others, this
new Theater Trucking Co. was formed. You denied to me at that
time that you ever had any business transactions at any time with Mr.
Craven. Do you want to say under oath before this committee
that you never had any business transactions of any kind with Mr.
Craven ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Of any kind of what you are referring to?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever have any business transactions of any
kind with Mr. Craven ?
Mr. FiTZsiM^roNS. To the best of my knowledge and definitely what
you are referring to I never had no business connections with Mr.
Craven.
Mr. Kennedy. What business transactions did 3'ou have with Mr.
Craven ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No business transactions that I know of with
Mr. Craven.
Mr. Kennedy. Did jo\i ever receive any money from Mr. Craven ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir; I have never received no money from
Mr. Craven.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever received any checks from Mr. Craven?
Mr. Fitzsemmons. Not that I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. You would know ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I said not that I know of, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You never went into any business transactions with
Mr. Craven ?
Mr. FnzsiMMONS. No, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. ISIr. Howard Craven ; isn't that correct ?
Mr. FrrzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you familiar with his testimony before the
Hoffman committee?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5351
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I read it in the Congressional Record.
Mr. Kennedy. You say that testimony is false?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I say that testimony is false.
Mr. Kennedy. That he had to pay to you some 90 percent of his
business ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I could explain as far as this deal is concerned,
if that is ^Yhat you want to know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any dealings with him whatsoever?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I had no dealings with him whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. You know Mr. Craven ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you are familiar with his testimony about the
90 percent of his business that he had to give to you ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As far as the testimony that he had to give me
90 percent '
Mr. Kennedy. Is that incorrect ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As far as his testimony, as you say, I may be
wrong in this, but as I remember that testimony, as I read it, did it
definitely state that he had given me 90 percent?
Mr. Kennedy. Did he give you any percent of his business?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No ; he didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Then the 90 percent is as wrong as any percent.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. There was never any discussion with him about giv-
ing you any of his business or percentage of his business ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. Were you present when he was having discussions
with anybody else about giving any percentage of his business to that
individual ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No; not that I remember. I think he had an
arrangement with a driver.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the driver's name ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. A fellow by the name of John Curran.
Mr. Ivennedy. What was that arrangement ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That was the arrangement of where they entered
into on a percentage of his business.
Mr. Kennedy. What was Mr. Curran ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. He was a driver.
Mr. Kennedy. Is he in the teamsters union ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. He was in the teamsters union at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. What was his position in the teamsters union ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. He w^as a member of the teamsters miion at that
time.
Mr. Ivennedy. Is he in the teamsters at the present time ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Not that I laiow of, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. And he drove for Mr. Craven ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat was the arrangement between Mr. Curran
and Mr. Craven that you knew about ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. The understanding that I had was that Mr.
Curran would get 90 percent and he would get 10 percent for the use
of his trucks.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Mr. Curran would ?
5352 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Why were you brought in ? Wliy did they tell you
about that ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. The reason why they told me about it was be-
cause as far as Mr. Curran was concerned, he was not a member of
the local union I represented. He was a member of the Periodical
and Newspaper Drivers, Local 372. I told him all I was interested in
was to see that the wage scale and conditions w as met by Mr. Craven
for the man that was driving the truck.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Why did they have to bring you into their business
deal, that Mr. Curran, the truckdriver, was to receive 90 percent of
the business, and Mr. Craven, the employer, 10 percent of the business ?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONS. Again I say, I don't remember being in on their
business deal as such. That is what they told me. They told me
that would equalize our contract.
Mr. I^NNEDT. Were you present when they signed the contract for
that?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. At the moment — there is a possibility I could
have been ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You think you might have been present when they
signed the contract for Curran to receive 90 percent and Mr. Craven,
the employer, to receive 10 percent of the business ? They called you
in?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. There is a possibility I was there, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. In whose office was the contract signed ?
Mr. FrrzsiMMONS. Right at the moment I could not say for sure
whether it was in Craven's office, our office, or the attorney's office.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was the attorney ?
Mr. FrrzsiMMONS. I understand that Albert Mathieson drew the
agreement for them.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you present when the agreement was drawn
and signed ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Again as I say, there is a possibility that I was
there.
Mr. Kennedy. Why were you a business agent of the teamsters go-
ing in on a business deal and be present when a business deal such as
this was sigend ? What was the reason if you did not have an interest ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As I say, I don't know whether I was there.
There is a possibility I was there. But my interest was to see that our
wage scale was protected.
Mr. Kennedy. How was Mr. Curran receiving 90 percent of the
profits going to insure that the teamsters drivers would receive a proper
wage scale ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't like to interrupt, Mr. Kennedy, but if I may
intrude, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. The Chair will hear you.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I don't think there is any question about Mr. Cur-
ran receiving 90 percent as Mr. Kennedy stated. I did not want the
record to show that. I thought the witness testified that Mr. Cur-
ran was to receive 10 percent. Is that correct ?
Mr. Kennedy. No. Mr. Curran, the truckdriver, was to receive 90
percent, and Mr. Craven, the employer, was to receive the 10 percent.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5353
According to Mr. Craven's testimony that money actually went to you,
Mr. Fitzsimmons.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I am sorry.
The Chairman. Just to clarify this, you keep saying 90 percent.
That is 90 percent of the gross receipts of the business and 10 percent ?
Mr. Kennedy. 90 percent of the total profits.
The Chairman. It is profits rather than gross receipts.
Mr. Kennedy. 90 percent of the net profit.
The Chairman. I do not think the record showed that. Is that your
understanding, 90 percent of the net profit?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. As far as the agreement between the people is
concerned, as I say, it is quite some time ago. To verify the actual
figures on the basis of fact, I can't do that.
The Chairman. Is that what the contract says? That is your
understanding at the time. You understood what the contract said
at the time.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is right.
The Chairman. Among other provisions the contract says :
A commission on tlie net profits as such term "net profits" is hereinafter
defined and limited, earned from that portion of the business during the term
of the second party's service thereat, amounting to the sum of 90 percent of
all such net profits.
Was that your understanding at the time ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is the agreement ; that is my understanding.
The Chairman. You say it is possible you were present?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Sir, it would be. Again to verify my position
on that, as I said, to assure the payment as far as the wages were
concerned.
The Chairman. Is there anything in this contract about wages?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Plus the fact
The Chairman. Is there anything in the contract about wages ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. You read the contract. Did you read the full
content ?
The Chairman. No; I have not. I just asked if there is any
provision in it with reference to wages ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I wouldn't know at this time.
The Chairman. I will have it checked and find out if there is any
provision in it. I believe I can help you refresh your memory,
though.
Mr. Kennedy. It does not mention wages, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I present to you a photostatic copy of the contract
and ask you to look at the signatures on it and see if you identify
any of those signatures.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir ; I identify my own.
The Chairman. You were a witness to the contract ; were you not ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Does that refresh your memory ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So you were there.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You participated in the negotiation of that contract.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir ; I didn't.
The Chairman. You did not ? How did you happen to be there to
sign it ?
5354 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IIST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I happened to be there to sign it, as far as I am
concerned, on the basis of our previous conversations.
The Chairman. That contract may be made exhibit No. 3.
(The contract referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 3" for reference,
and will be fomid in the appendix on p. 5723-5725.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I might just summarize, and my sum-
marization can be checked, Mr. Howard Craven's testimony before
the Hoffman committee regarding this matter.
Mr. Fitzsimmons, you never testified before the Hoffman committee,
as I understand ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Just a moment, please, if I may.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. FiTzsiMONS. No, Mr. Kennedy; I never testified before the
Hoffman committee,
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Howard C. Craven, the owner of the Exhibitors
Service Co., which delivered motion-picture film in the Detroit area,
were originally in the stagecrafters union, and in 1940 were brought
into the teamsters union by Frank E. Fitzsimmons. Mr. Hollis was
the union steward. He originally put his own truck on and hauled
the lithograph paper.
Subsequently he was approached by Fitzsimmons and Curran and
offered exclusive rights of hauling lithograph paper in the Detroit
area. Craven entered into a contract in the office of Mathieson in
November of 1944, which lasted about 1 year, the condition being that
Fitzsimmons was to receive 90 percent of the profit. One truck was
involved. It was driven by Mr. John Curran. Craven was ordered
to open a special account and place the money in it, and, of the fund,
Fitzsimmons was to receive 90 percent. Subsequently, Fitzsimmons
was dissatisfied with the total amount of money. He ordered Mr.
Craven to bring the checks to the office of the accomitant, Mr. Lou
Rosen.
Do you know Mr. Lou Rosen ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Kennedy. He does some of the accounting work for the union ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. He does my quarterly reports.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Rosen ordered all the checks to be submitted.
He estimated the total sum to be $9,000 given to Mr. Fitzsimmons and
the tax to be approximately $600, which he paid. Shortly after this
meeting, Craven truckers went on strike, and the settlement of the
strike was so exorbitant that he was forced out of business. That is
a summary of the testimony. You say you never received any money
from Mr. Craven ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You never received any money, either directly or
indirectly ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I never received no money on the basis of what
you said, on the basis I receive 90 percent of the profits of this com-
pany.
Mr. Kennedy. That was not the question. Did you ever receive
any money, directly or indirectly, from IMr. Craven.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. KJENNEDY.. You would remember; you didn't work there, did
you?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EN" THE LABOR FIELD 5355
Senator Mundt. Did you get any from Mr. Curran ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Mr. Currran ?
Senator Mundt. Did you get any money, directly or indirectly,
from John Curran ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. May I have a moment, please ?
Senator Mundt. Very well.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. You are speaking to me as an individual, or the
local union ? Pie pays his dues into the local union.
Senator Mundt. I am speaking you as an individual at the mo-
ment, and of Mr. Curran as an individual.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As far as Curran is concerned, the only money
1 would receive off John was if I would lend him some money and
he would pay me back. As far as this other program is concerned,
no, I never received no money from Curran on that program.
Senator Mundt. Did you ever receive aii}^ money from Mr. Cur-
ran which was not in repayment of a loan that you had advanced
to him ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir ; I never did. Senator.
Senator Mundt. You are testifying that the only money you ever
got from John Curran was in repayment of money which you had
loaned to him ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Senator Mundt. No other money, directly or indirectly?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Just a moment.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Would you clarify directly or indirectly?
Senator Mundt. Directly would be that he handed you the money.
Indirectly would mean any money he had anything to do with what-
soever. Indirectly making money available to you. There is noth-
ing complicated about that.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS, No; there is nothing complicate about it. As
far as the situation goes, no, I never got no money directly or in-
directly from John Curran.
Senator Mundt. You are not very sure of that, are you ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. To the best of my knowledge, yes, I am sure of it.
Senator Mundt. You were not sure enough so you could not answer
it without consulting your attorney, and asking me what I meant by
directly or indirectly. You lead me to believe that there must be
some kind of financial arrangement between you and Curran that I
have not quite put my finger on.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I didn't mean to lead you to believe that. Senator,
Senator Mundt. It would be much easier for me to accept your
statement if you had said, "No, I didn't get any money, directly or
indirectly, or in any way, shape, or form."
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think I made that statement to Mr. Kennedy in
Detroit.
Senator Mundt. I would like to have it made under oath now, while
we are here.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir ; as far as I am concerned
Senator Mundt. Here you are under oath. There you were not.
That is why I ask you the question now.
5356 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I say again, to the best of my knowledge, I never
received no money, directly or indirectly, from John Curran.
^ Senator Mundt. Could you eliminate that qualifying phrase which
vitiates your whole statement ? Could you simply eliminate that "to
the best of my recollection," and say categorically, "I never received
any money directly or indirectly from John Curran" ? Could you say
that?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONS. To the best of my recollection —
Senator Mundt. It is no good. You might as well say nothing.
I want you to say whatever you have to say to be fair to yourself and
honest. To be convincing to me, I would like to have you eliminate
that qualifying phrase if you can. If I ask you did you ever receive
any money directly or indirectly from Senator Mundt, you would
say no. You would not have to say "to the best of my recollection."
When I ask you about John Curran, you put in a qualifying phrase
through which you could drive a load of South Dakota hay.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. The only thing I can say is previous to John
Curran going to work for Craven I knew him, and after he left the
employ of Craven I knew him.
Senator Mundt. So what? I didn't ask you if you knew him. I
asked you if you could say that you never received any money from
him directly or indirectly without any qualification whatsoever. If
you can't do it without qualification, don't do it. I am not trying to
get you in trouble. If you can do it, I think it might be useful for you
to say it, that is all.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I say something? This is only by way of
suggestion. As I understand it, they had a relationship before and
after. I think what Mr. Fitzsimmons may be concerned with is
whether relating to this Craven situation — is that what the Senator
is relating to ?
Senator Mundt. Yes, that is the only thing I have information
about.
Mr. FnzsiMMONS. On that basis I would say I never received any
money from John Curran.
Senator Mundt. Directly or indirectly.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Craven testified that Mr. Rosen reviewed his
books. Did you arrange for Mr. Rosen, the union accountant, to
review his books, too ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir ; I never did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that he reviewed the books ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No ; I did not know that.
Mr. Ivennedy. Mr. Craven testified that Mr. Rosen was brought
over by you to review the books because you felt you were not getting
enough money out of this transaction. You say that is incorrect, also ;
is that right ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is incorrect ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. The record shows that Mr. Rosen did review the
books. Do you know why Mr. Craven would get hold of the union
attorney to come over and review the books and records?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Mr. Rosen is not a union attorney.
Mr. Kennedy. The union accountant.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I wouldn't know how he would get hold of Mr.
Rosen.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5357
Mr. Kennedy. He is also your personal accountant ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. He does my income-tax return.
Mr. Kennedy. Here is Mr. Craven, who got the accountant for the
union and the accountant for Mr. Fitzsimmons, his own personal
accountant, and brought him over to review those books and records
and you say you know nothing about it.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I just want to say this to you. Mr. Rosen has
done my personal business only in the last 6 or 7 years.
Mr. Ivennedy. But you say you know nothing about this.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I know nothing about him or how he and Mr.
Craven got together.
JNIr. Kennedy. You say that testimony of Mr. Craven is alsa
incorrect ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I say that.
Mr. Kennedy. And you never even knew that Mr. Rosen was re-
viewing the books ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No ; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. He never even mentioned it to you ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that you never re-
ceived any money from Mr. Curran directly or indirectly regarding
this transaction ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Or from Mr. Craven; Craven or Curran?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You never received from either of them?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir.
The Chairman. One name is John Curran and the other is named
Howard Craven. Is that correct ? These are the two parties ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I hand you a photostatic copy of a little check
dated September 16, 1945, made payable to John Curran, signed on
a special account by Harold C. Craven, and it appears to have some
endorsements on it. The check is in the amount of $500. Will you
examine it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. See if your signature appears on it anywhere.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. It does.
The Chairman. In what capacity ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. As an endorsement as far as the check is con-
cerned.
The Chairman. Whose endorsement precedes it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. John Curran.
The Chairman. And yours beneath his ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who cashed the check ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Who cashed it ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I presume I cashed the check.
The Chairman. I would presume so. So you did get $500 at that
time, did you not ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, I wouldn't say that.
The Chairman. You cashed the check. You got $500 ?
5358 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST' THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As far as the $500 is concerned, I cashed the
check for Curran.
The CHAiRMAisr. You may have, but you got $500 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Mr. McClellan, that is why I asked Senator
Mundt what he meant by directly or indirectly.
The Chairman. Tell us whether that was directly or indirectly.
You handled the transaction. You describe it.
Mr. FiTzsiMMoxs. As far as the check is concerned, to the best of
my knowledge this is a check of wages. Wages is written on top of
it. I presume that John Curran got this check, asked me to cash the
check, and I did cash the check and, in turn, endorsed it and either
deposited the check
The CHAiRMAisr. Do you recall that transaction ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Sir?
The Chairman. Do you recall the transaction ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I recallit as vivid? No, I couldn't recall this
in 1945.
The Chairman. How many other checks did you cash for him in
that fashion ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I wouldn't know. I don't think there was many,
if there was any more.
The Chairman. What is the occasion for him to come to you to
cash a check? Why would he not take it to the bank? It is on a
bank down there ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes.
The Chairman. ^Yhy would he bring it to you to cash it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I can't answer.
The Chairihan. A check of that size you usually take it to a bank
to get it cashed.
Mr. Fitzsimmons. There could be circumstances surrounding some
instance.
The Chahuman. Do you remember the circumstance?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, I can't remember the circumstance.
The Chairman. Let the check be made exhibit No. 4.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 4" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5726. )
Mr. I^NNEDY. Did Mr. Hoffa ever ask you about this matter after
he appeared before the Hoffman committee ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Not that I remember.
Mr. Kennedy. He never even spoke to you about it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. All this testimony came out before the Hoffman com-
mittee regarding this transaction, and he never spoke to you about
it at all ? He never questioned you about it at all, is that right ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. He never asked you whether you got any money from
Mr. Craven, is that right ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. He was asked specifically before the Hoffman com-
mittee about this $500 check, and he said he assumed it was wages to
you. Did he ever clarify it for him ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. ^Yho said it ?
Mr. Kennedy. This is Mr. Hoffa, who was asked about this $500
check. He was shown your endorsement on the back and he said the
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES' IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5359
only conclusion he could receive was some kind of wages for you. Did
you ever clarify him on that matter ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMOxs. I never read Hoffa's testimony in the Hoffman
committee.
Mr. Kennedy. It is on page 452. Did you ever clarify it for him ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. "\'\Tiat hearing?
Mr. Kennedy. Hearing held at Detroit, Mich., November 23, 24, 25,
26, and 27, 1953.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. December?
]Mr. Kennedy. November. He said he was going to look into it and
have you fired if he found out you got any money. He didn't look into
it, you say ?
Mr. FITZSIMMONS, To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. Kennedy. He never even discussed it with you ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I say to the best of my knowledge, no, Mr. Ken-
nedy.
Mr. Kennedy. I just want to ask you about a few other things. "We
talked about the Theater Trucking Co. Have you or your family been
in any other trucking companies ?
Mr. FiTZsiMMONS. I think I testified my son had Trans-City Truck-
ing Co.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliich son was that ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Richard.
Mr. Kennedy. Richard had Trans-City Trucking Co. ? How many
trucks did they have ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Offhand, right at the moment, I think I said 12
or 14 trucks.
Mr. Kennedy. That company had a contract with the teamsters
union ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes ; it did.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliich local ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. 299.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio was the business agent that handled that
contract ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Roland McMasters.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the witness that is now ill ?
Mr. FiTZsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Is son Richard still with that company ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Vliere is he now ?
Mr. FiTZsiMMONS. He is working on the organization of the office
workers.
Mr. Kennedy. Office workers union ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And your son Donald was with Theater Trucking
Co.?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Where is he now ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. He still is there.
Mr. Kennedy. With Theater Trucking ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Has he any other source of income ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No ; not that I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. Just with Theater Trucking Co. ?
r
5360 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. "VVliat about you, yourself ? Have you had any other
source of income other than your union ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. As I told you, in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. What was that ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. With respect to the Better Brands of Illinois.
Mr. Kennedy. What kind of company is that?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. A beer distributor in Chicago.
Mr. Kennedy. IVhat years did you work there ?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONS. If I am not mistaken, Mr. Kennedy, I think it
was 1950. You have my internal revenue reports. It shows on there.
As far as the dates are concerned, I don't want to verify the dates
this moment, but they are a matter of record.
Mr. Kennedy. I have it here for 1 year. 1953. You were there in
1953?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. "VVliat did you receive from Better Brands of Illinois
as far as salary is concerned ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. The amount?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. I think it is there.
Mr. Kennedy. How much was it a week or a month ? How were
you paid ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONs. I think it was by the week.
Mr. Kennedy. How much a week
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I think it was around $75 or $100.
Mr. Kennedy. What services did you perform for that ?
Mr. FiTZsiMMONS. I consulted with them on their sales program.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliere did you consult with them ?
Mr. FiTZsiMMONs. I consulted with them in their offices in Chicago.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you an expert in that field ?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONS. I know something about sales, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. They wanted your advice ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I testified before. Mr. Scobie and I were friends
for quite a few years.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't think you testified before.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I talked to you in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. I want it under oath.
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Mr. Scobie and I have been friends and on that
basis, I have this program we had in Chicago, knowing that I was,
and knew something about sales, we discussed it.
Mr. Kennedy. So you went over there to give them advice ?
Mr. FiTZSiMMONs. We discussed items.
Mr. Kennedy. At $75 a week ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. For how long a period of time was that ? Approxi-
mately how long?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I think I was with Better Brands for at least
2 years ; maybe longer.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you give any other source of income ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No. Only the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Only the union ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the Detroit Chef ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5361
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. That is my wife.
Mr. Kennedy. She works for one of the locals ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. She did.
Mr. I^jiNNEDY. Local 234 ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What is that ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Cooks and waiters.
Mr. Ivennedy. Did Mr. Hoffa know about the interest that your
family had in trucking companies and your own employment by the
Better Brands ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. I think he did ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any interest in Film Truck Service ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Does any of your family have any interest in it ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did any of them work for Film Truck Service ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Did you have anything to do with the loan that the
union made to Film Truck Service ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I sat on the board when it was O. K.'d ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that given to you for approval ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Sir?
Mr. Ejennedy. That was given to you for approval ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. The executive board of local 299.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they approve all loans ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. They approved every loan that is made ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. No. Any loans of this type as far as the loans
are concerned. You are speaking now of individuals where a mem-
ber comes up and wants a loan from the local union ?
Mr. Kennedy. No; we will say somebody wants a loan of $1,000.
Does that have to go through the executive board or does Mr. Hoffa
approve it himself ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think as far as the loans are concerned, the
executive board approves some loans and Mr. Hoffa has the right to
approve loans.
Mr. Kennedy. Without submitting them to the executive board ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was it specifically from Film Truck Service that
requested the loan from 299 ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I think it was Mrs. Pike. Gladys.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the loan of $12,000 ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known Mrs. Pike ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. I would say I have known Mrs. Pike 12 or 15
years.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you recommended this loan be given Mrs.
Pike?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. On the basis of recommendation, she made ap-
plication for the loan. I have handled Film drivers.
Mr. Ivennedy. You did ?
Mr. Fitzsimmons. Prior to suggesting that we would allow the
loan.
89330— 57— pt. 14 6
5362 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. I^NNEDY. You never had any financial interest in that com-
pany?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Never,
Mr. Kennedy. You never received any moneys ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Never.
Mr. IvENNEDT, From her or that company ?
Mr. FiTzsiMMONS. Never.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Fitzsimmons will be needed
later in the week in connection with some other testimony. We are
through for this afternoon.
The Chairman. Mr. Fitzsimmons, you will remain under subpena.
The subpena will be sei-ved on the witness by the clerk to return
with his records.
Senator Mundt. I want to have in the record here another provi-
sion in the constitution and bylaws which are current in the Interna-
tional Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen and
Helpers of America. We were discussing the possible and, in my
mind, the probable ineligibility of certain of the delegates to this
convention in Miami, according to their own testimony, on the basis
that they failed to conform to the constitutional provision, especially
the provision that they must be confirmed prior to the 30 days pre-
ceding the first day of the convention. I see that article 3, subsection
6, paragraph (b) of the constitution makes the reason for that pretty
clear. I would like to have it in tlie record. It says :
All credentials must be in the general oflSce 30 days prior to the opening of the
convention —
which is a very good and valid reason why those decisions should have
been verified and finalized 30 days prior to the opening of the conven-
tion, and, in my opinion, gives conclusive evidence of the fact that
these delegates selected or verified or finally confirmed by member-
ship meetings after the deadline date of 30 days prior to the opening
of the convention would be unconstitutionally selected and I would
thinlc the credentials committee operating under the constitution
would find them ineligible.
The Chairman. The full section may be printed in the record at
this point.
(Section 6 referred to follows :)
Sec. 6. (a) The secretary-treasurer of each local union shall, immediately
after the election of delegates, forward their names to the general secretary-
treasurer, who shall publish a list of delegates. Each delegate shall present his
credentials, properly signed by the president and secretary-treasurer, and the
seal of the local union shall be impressed thereon. He shall also present his
membership card, establishing that he is a member in good standing and en-
titled to a seat in the convention.
(b) All credentials must be in the general office 30 days prior to the opening
of the convention.
The Chairman. Mr. Fitzsimmons, you will stand by for further
questions in this series of hearings.
The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow,
(Wliereupon, at 5 : 45 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at
10 a. m,, Wednesday, September 25, 1957.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 25, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN the Labor or JSIanagement Field,
Washington^ D. C.
The select committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to Senate Reso-
lution 74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room. Senate
Office Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select
committee) presiding.
Present: Senators John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Pat
McNamara, Democrat, Michigan ; Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South
Dakota.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome Adlerman,
chief assistant counsel; Kenneth P. O'Donnell, assistant counsel;
Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator; Carmine S. Bellino, accounting
consultant ; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members present at the convening of the session: Senators Mc-
Clellan and Mundt. )
The Chairman. The Chair will make this observation. Yesterday
we had some 5 business agents here who testified regarding loans they
had made some 5 years ago to Mr. Hoffa. The record reflects the cir-
cumstances. There are some six others. I believe, wlio are in the same
category but in order to expedite these hearings, and because I feel it
is unnecessary to have so much repetition of the same, we are not calling
the other business agents who made similar loans under similar cir-
cumstances. We are not calling them at this time. Later we may.
We wish to expedite these hearings and move into another matter this
morning.
Counsel, call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Just before we do, we were talking about the election
of delegates yesterday. We received the ballot that went out from
local 239. That was Tony "Ducks" Corallo's local, which we had some
interest in about a month ago. First a letter went out to the member-
ship which is here. Then a ballot went out naming five men, Sam
Goldstein, Bernard Stein, Anthony Corallo, who is Tony "Ducks,"
Max Sherman, and Sam Krieger. The membership were told to vote
for five. They were given five names.
So Tony Ducks now is one of the delegates at the convention in
Miami.
The Chairman. May I ask counsel where these documents were
procured?
5363
5364 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. They were procured in New York, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. At the proper time, we can place a witness on,
and at that time we will have them verified.
Mr. Kennedy. They were procured from a member of local 239, I
believe.
The Chairman. Well, whoever procured them, we will have him
testify, and then I will make them a part of the record.
Let us call the next witness.
Mr. Ivennedy. Mr. Arthur Morgan.
The Chairman. Mr. Morgan, come around, please.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Morgan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR MORGAN
The Chahiman. Mr. Morgan, state your name, your place of resi-
dence, and your business or occupation.
Mr. Morgan. Arthur Morgan, 116 West 32d Street, Minneapolis,
Minn. I am a labor representative, acting as an individual.
The Chairman. A labor representative ?
Mr. Morgan. Acting as an individual. Under the labor relations
law, you are entitled to petition and win elections in your own name,
which I did to take over the membership formerly in teamster local
548.
The Chairman. Were you a member of that local ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir ; I was.
The Chapman, Are you now a member of that local ?
Mr. Morgan. No.
The Chairjvian. May I ask whether you have elected to testify with-
out counsel ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. You are entitled to counsel if you desire to have
counsel present to advise you of your legal rights. Have you waived
or do you desire to waive counsel and proceed ?
Mr. ISIoRGAN. Yes.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Mr. Counsel, will you pro-
ceed ?
Mr. Ej^nnedy. You have been in the labor union movement how
long?
Mr, Morgan. Approximately 20 years.
Mr. KIennedy. And you were at one time associated with the team-
sters in Minneapolis?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to that, what union had you been with ?
Mr. Morgan. I was international representative with the Interna-
tional Union of Electrical Workers, of which Mr. James Carey is
president, and also national representative for the CIO during the
time that Mr. Murray was still with us.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were during 1955 associated with the
teamsters in Minneapolis ?
Mr. Morgan. Part of 1954 and part of 1955; yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5365
Mr, Kennedy. During that period of time, was Mr. Gerald Con-
nelly associated with that local ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir ; he was.
Mr. Kennedy. What position did you hold?
Mr. Morgan. I was vice president and business agent.
Mr. Kennedy. Of what local ?
Mr. Morgan. Local 548.
Mr. I^nnedy. What position did Mr. Connelly hold ?
Mr. Morgan. Secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Kennedy. He was your superior?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee what you know about
his coming into Minneapolis and taking over local 548, and what you
know about his activities in Minneapolis ?
Mr. Morgan. Well, I really don't know anything about the circum-
stances of him coming into Minneapolis. All at once he showed up
on the scene there, and I guess he had been around for quite some time
before I knew him myself, but I do know that when he came in he had
a charter with the Building Service Employees Union, Local 194.
Wlien he came in there were several unions transferred members to
him from other unions without any consent of the members involved,
or anything. Then, after the building service took his charter away
from him, he was issued a charter with local 548 of the teamsters. At
that time they just transferred the members from the building serv-
ice local back into the teamsters without any consent of the members,
or without any vote of anyone.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did the building service union take the charter
away from him?
Mr. Morgan. I really don't know the reason except there was a lot
of opposition by other building service unions in ^Minneapolis and
St. Paul for even giving him the charter in the first place.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you known about his involvement down in
Miami with the laundry workers, and the attempted murder of a
man down there ?
Mr. Morgan. I did not know about it until later when Mr. Mullen-
hoff of the Minneapolis Star Journal wrote articles in the paper about
it. That was the first knowledge that I had of any operations or even
who the man actually was.
Mr. Kennedy. That was back in 1951, is that correct, according to
the information that you received ?
Mr. Morgan. When I first knew about it, I think it was around 1953
when I saw articles in the paper about it.
Mr. Kennedy. About his involvement in this attempted murder
in Miami.
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That was in connection with his activities with the
laundry workers union.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, he came in and received a charter from the
teamsters. Was there an election at that time ?
Mr. Morgan. No.
Mr. Kennedy. How was it arranged for him to take over the
local?
5366 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Morgan. Well, as far as I know, he was just given a charter,
and at that time the members that he represented under the building
service union automatically became members of the other union.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently was there an election ?
Mr. Morgan. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You had an election at some time, did you ?
Mr. Morgan. Not involving the members. Do you mean of union
officers ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, the election of union officers.
Mr. Morgan. Well, he represented the people for 2 years solely
on his own before there was any election of any union officers. I was
working with that union approximately 3 months prior to the time
they finally had an election of officers.
Mr. Kennedy. When did they first have the election of officers ?
Mr. Morgan. It was in July of 1954.
Mr. Kennedy. July of 1954 ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the feeling of the membership toward
Gerald Connelly at that time, during 1954 ?
Mr. Morgan. Well the first thing from the time I became associated
with that local in May of 1954 was that there was a case of fear
practically, and the membership wanted to do something, and wanted
to leave that union but none of them knew anything to get themselves
out of it or what to do about having an election of officers. They
were afraid that if they demanded anything at all, that they would lose
their jobs.
Mr. Kennedy. Had that happened at all ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, it has.
Mr. Kennedy. And people that opposed Connelly lost their jobs?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know of instances of that ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, I do.
Mr. Kennedy. How many instances do you know of ?
Mr. Morgan. I would say a considerable number of times.
Mr. Kennedy. People that opposed Connelly lost their jobs and
employment ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You say there was an election in 1954 ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us how that was conducted ?
Mr. Morgan. The election that was held in 1954 was against all rules
of organized labor, against a violation of the teamsters constitution and
everything else. It states that you have to notify the members either
by notification in the shops or by advertisements in the newspapers,
and this was not done. There was cards sent out to the membership
calling for an election of officers and they were mailed the same day
that the election took place so that the members could not get the cards
until the day after the election was over with. The constitution calls
for nominations the first meeting in August and election the second
meeting in August, and this meeting was held in July for the election
of officers and they were nominated and elected at the same time.
^ Mr. Kennedy. So there were about 4 or 5 violations of the constitu-
tion in that election, is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. At least that many.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5367
Mr. Kennedy. How many members of the local attended the
meeting ?
Mr. Morgan. I would say approximately 20.
Mr. Kennedy. How many votes did Mr. Connelly say he received ?
Mr. Morgan. I think Mr. Connelly received 135.
Mr. Kennedy. And there were 20 people who voted ?
Mr. Morgan. I would say approximately 20, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately 20. And he announced the follow-
ing day he received 135 votes ?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. He continued to run the union. Could you tell the
committee anything about his relationship with employers ?
Mr. Morgan. His relationship with employers is something that I
practically Imow nothing about, because everything that he did him-
self was conducted in such a secret manner that I never knew any-
thing hardly, what he was actually doing.
Mr. Kennedy. You are familiar with some of the contracts that he
signed, are you not ?
Mr. Morgan. I am.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what I am talking about.
Mr. Morgan. Oh, yes.
Senator Mundt. Before we get to that, could we have a little more
about the election? Did they just vote for secretary-treasurer, or did
they elect a whole slate of officials ?
Mr. Morgan. I didn't hear that.
Senator Mundt. At this election, where 20 people allegedly cast
130 some votes.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. I understand Jerry Connelly was elected secretary-
treasurer. Is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. Did they elect a president, then, and a vice presi-
dent?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Who else got elected, and what vote did they get ?
Mr. Morgan. Their votes corresponded along with the vote of
Gerald Connelly.
Senator Mundt. In other words, he had a slate of officials ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. His full slate got in, is that what happened ?
Mr. Morgan. He didn't actually have a slate of people to be elected
because I don't think that he knew people in the union or enough
people so he could even draw up a slate if he wanted to. The people
that were elected were sent down to the meeting by myself for the sim-
ple reason that although I had only been associated with Mr. Connelly
for 2 months that I was already trying to figure out some way to take
these people away from him and to get them out of that type of an
organization. So the people that showed up down at the meeting and
were nominated and elected were people from practically every shop
in the union that I knew that were definitely against Connelly and
were trying to do something to clean up the organization.
So the slate of officers that were elected were people that were
definitely against Connelly from the start.
r
5368 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Later on when the union was put into trusteeship, these people were
the people that acted against Mr. Connelly.
Senator Mundt. Let me see if I can recapitulate what happened.
You had an election and about 20 people attended ?
Mr. Morgan. About 20 people.
Senator Mundt. You were 1 of the 20 ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. And at that election officers who were friendly to
the Minneapolis laboring men and who represented them were elected
to all these positions except that of secretary-treasurer ?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. Connelly got elected secretary-treasurer ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. How did he happen to get elected secretary-treas-
urer at a meeting where people who were in opposition to him got
all the other offices ?
Mr. Morgan. With him present at the meeting there was no one
else nominated against him.
Senator Mundt. In other words, he so completely intimidated them
that with him there nobody got up and nominated anybody against
him?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. In the hierarchy of local unions, is the secretary-
treasurer the big guy, or is the president the big guy? Who is the
top man ?
Mr. Morgan. The secretary-treasurer.
Senator Mundt. That is the most important position ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Over a president ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Over a vice president ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt- Secretary-treasurer is running the show ?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct. According to the bylaws that they
had in the local union, the secretary-treasurer has the right to operate
the union, hire and fire his office help, business agents, or anyone that
he so desires.
Senator Mundt. And he controls the money ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. I am not quite clear in my own mind how this man
Connelly got from Florida to Minneapolis and became secretary-
treasurer prior to this election.
Mr. Morgan. That is something that I don't know myself, or could
never understand, when a man comes in and they just hand him a char-
ter and that is it. Then other unions transfer members to the man
without any vote or anything of any kind.
Senator Mundt. That is your theory of it. How does it happen?
How can you get a man who is working for one union in Minneapolis
suddenly put into another union without he himself doing anything
at all? Somebody tells him he has been transferred?
Mr. Morgan. The people themselves, the only way they even knew
they were in a different union was when they sent them out union books
from the teamsters instead of the retail clerks.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5369
Senator Mundt. In other words, they were not only in a different
union ; they got out of some other union into the teamsters union ?
Mr- Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Without knowing anything about it ?
Mr. Morgan. They went out of the teamsters into the Building
Service Employees Union and back into the teamsters with no votes
of any kind.
Senator Mundt. Were the dues the same and all the organization ?
Mr. Morgan. I think that they were. That was before my associa-
tion with that union. That happened in 1953.
Senator Mundt. How did you get into local 548 yourself ?
Mr. Morgan. How did I get in, myself ?
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. Morgan. To start out with, when I was working with the CIO
I was away from home all of the time, so after I left the association
with the CIO to return home I went to work with another teamster
union. At that time, the other union was involved in a lot of strikes
at different garages throughout the area around Minneapolis there,
and the union became practically bankrupt after having a strike of
over 9 months. At that time, I would have been without a job unless
I had accepted association with 548.
Senator Mundt. At the time you went with 548, this man Connelly
was secretary-treasurer ?
Mr. Morgan. He was the only officer. He was secretary-treasurer
and everything else.
Senator Mundt. Did you originally go to Mr. Connelly and say,
"I would like to have a job in local 548." Is that how it happened, or
how did it happen ?
Mr. Morgan. No. He called me and told me he needed an assistant,
and asked me if I would care to go to work for him.
Senator Mundt. So then, initially, you were his assistant ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. After 2 months of that, you discovered that he was
not trying to represent the best interests of the union, that he was
not a good union leader, so then you prepared a slate, or suggested
some nominations and filled out the offices with people who would be
honest representatives of labor ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. But you could not replace him because he had
intimidated the members ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. How many members could have been at the meet-
ing? How many were eligible? Twenty came. How many could
have come ?
Mr. Morgan. At that time, I think there were close to 400. I would
say in the neighborhood of 350 to 400.
Senator Munivt. 350 to 400 ?
Mr. Morgan. At least that ; yes.
Senator Mundt. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. You are familiar with the contracts that Mr. Con-
nelly negotiated and signed with the employers or some of tliQ em-
ployers around Minneapolis ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes : I am.
r
5370 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Could you characterize a number of those contracts
as "sweetheart" contracts ?
Mr. Morgan. There was one mstance where one company that was
formerly in another teamsters union in Minneapolis had a rate of
$1.32 an hour for their employees. That was back, I think, in 1952
or 1953 that that contract was signed. Mr. Connelly negotiated a
contract with a company, after he took over, lowering the rate to $1
an liour for the first year of employment and $1.10 an hour thereafter.
Mr. Kennedy. So he negotiated a contract which brought about
a decrease in the wages ?
Mr. Morgan. Of 32 cents an hour.
Mr. Kennedy. That the employees were receiving; is that right?
Mr. Morgan. That is right. None of the employees ever took a cut
in the plaut, but newer help that started later on started for a lower
rate of pay.
Mr. Kennedy. You mean the former employees left the employment
and new employees came in ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy. When they found that they received a cut in
salaries ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. I^nnedy. Do you have any other instances similar to that ?
Mr. Morgan. The contract with the liquor stores they represented
in Mimieapolis — small liquor stores that are homeowned, practically,
with just a man and wife or relations or where they have 1 employee
or so — the rate of pay in them, contracts were signed in 1953 for $65
a week. The contracts covering the big liquor stores that employ, I
would say, 8 to 20 people, were signed for $58 a week, $7 a week less
wages where he actually represented members. The other stores,
why, there were peoj^le that owned their own stores and everything
that were forced into the union by pickets.
Mr. Kennedy. So what he did was that where there were larger
liquor stores, he would allow them to pay their employees $58 a week ;
is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy, At the same time he was forcing into the union by
threat of picket liquor stores which were owned and operated by one
individual ; is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
Mr. Ivennedy. And if they had maybe just 1 employee or 2 em-
ployees, those small liquor stores that had these few employees had
to pay a wage scale of $65 a week ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So there was an effort against the small-business
man ; is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. In Minneapolis.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you see any other instances where he was mak-
ing any deals with employers? Could you tell us about the one
liquor-store owner who was disabled ?
Mr. Morgan. There was one store, Lindale Liquor Store in Minne-
apolis where a disabled veteran, a legless man, was forced to join the
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5371
union. He can't even get out of a chair. He sits in a chair there
and customers wait on themselves when they come in, and everything.
The man is not able to hardly get around at all.
Mr. Kennedy. He was forced to pay, as you understand, the initia-
tion fee plus the union dues each month ; is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct,
Mr. IvENNEDY. And these other people that owned their own stores
were likewise forced to pay an initiation fee and dues every month on
themselves ?
The Chairman. In other words, after you got into the union you
understook to submit any contracts you made with employers to the
vote of the union members for approval ?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
The Chairman. All right. You may proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, I want to ask you about some to these other
employers. Did you hear or learn about a contract with some barrel-
makers up there ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. They had a contract with the teamsters union ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Were the negotiations carried on by Connelly that
were to the detriment of the membership ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes; it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell the committee about that, please?
Mr. Morgan. That is the one I had reference to when I spoke
Zvlr. Kennedy. Spoke about the deduction ?
Mr. Morgan. Where I spoke about the one where the wages were
reduced in the contract from the $1.32 per hour to a dollar.
Mr. Kennedy. That Avas the barrelmakers ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
The Chairman. These were owners of their own businesses?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. I would like to ask you about these contracts that
you have been referring to where the wages were reduced. Were
those contracts ever submitted to the union for approval?
Mr. Morgan. Not that I ever knew of.
The Chairman. In other words, the union members had no oppor-
tunity to approve or disapprove of the contracts ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. They w^ere not submitted to them. This man was
just running it on his own.
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. How many contracts were signed that way?
Mr. Morgan. In the liquor stores I imagine there were probably
around 70.
The Chairman. Seventy in the liquor stores ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
The Chairman. How many of the others ?
Mr. Morgan. I really don't know on the other ones prior to my
association with the union, but after my association with the union
practically all of the contracts from then on were submitted to the
membership for votes because I handled most of the negotiations my-
self.
5372 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES Ds' THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator JNIuxdt. What ^Yould be the amount of the union tax that
they imposed on this one-legged veteran ?
Mr. Kexnedy. No legged.
Senator IMundt. Amputee. "What would be the amount of tax he
had to pay the union by virtue of the fact he paid initiation fee and
dues ? How much did this cost him ?
Mr. IMoRGAx. Initiation fees and dues ?
Senator Muxdt. Yes.
Mr. Morgan. Initiation fees were $29 and $4 a month dues.
Senator Muxdt. That cost him $48 a year.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Plus his initiation.
Mr. jNIorgan. Plus their initiation fee.
Senator Mundt. To just have this one-man shop.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. And if he had refused to do that, then they would
have put pickets around him and put him out of business, is that right?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. Did they put pickets around his place ?
Mr. Morgan. Not this one man. They used a threat of pickets.
That was before my association with that union. He told me that they
used threats of pickets so that he had to join the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you also know of an arrangement that was made
whereby the employer would lire the employees everj' month?
Mr. il(mGAN. I never actually knew that there was any agreement
or anything like that, but I do know that a lot of people
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee the circumstances sur-
rounding that ?
Mr. Morgan. There was a lot of of them even after •
Mr. KJENNEDY. "\Miat company is this ?
Mr. Morgan. That would have been several companies. One was
one of the big barrel companies. There would be people call in that
they had lost their jobs and everything else, and the president of the
union called Coimelly on several instances and said that the people
had called him and Connelly said it was being taken care of, that he
had already filed a grievance on them. But people were never put
back to work, or that was the last that anybody ever heard of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a great turnover in some of these com-
panies?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, there was.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that true in the barrel company that you have
referred to ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was the advantage in the turnover from the
union standpoint ?
Mr. Morgan. The only advantage you have, when you have a turn-
over, is that if people are employed for 30 days they have to join the
union, and pay initiation fees.
The Chairman. It was to get the initiation fees ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Those initiation fees would go into the treasury ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir : that is right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5373
The Chairman. You were not the treasurer, however ?
Mr. Morgan. No.
The Chairman. Connelly was the treasurer?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how they were spent ?
Mr. Morgan. No. That is one thing I don't think anybody ever
knew, how it was spent, because nobody ever saw any of the books
or anything to determine how they were spent. When the union was
put into trusteeship, and the books were supposed to be turned over to
Sidney Brennan, who was appointed trustee, the books disappeared
before Mr. ]^rennan took over and so we actually couldn't even see
]iow the money was spent or anything else at that time.
The Chairman. When they took it over was there any money left?
Mr. Morgan. Very little.
Senator Mundt. The money disappeared at the same time that the
books did?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
The Chairman. What do you mean by "very little" ?
Mr. Morgan. At the time we took over the union, I think that there
was approximately $800 in the treasury, but there was probably
$5,000 worth of outstanding bills.
The Chairman. You had outstanding bills of $5,000, and about
$300 in cash ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. And no records to show what had happened to
the money ?
Mr. Morgan. Well, there were records, but the records were carried
out by Connelly the day he received a telegram that the union had
been placed in the trusteeship under Sidney Brennan.
The Chairman. He took all of the records ?
Mr. ^Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Senator Mundt. During this interval, in which you accumulated
$3,000 in debts and a $300 balance in the treasury, about what would
you estimate the annual income of the union to be ?
Mr. Morgan. Well, I would say approximately between $1,500 and
$2,000 a month.
Senator Mundt. Between $1,500 and $2,000 a month ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. And it was that volume of money that had come
under the custodianship of this man Connelly ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. He spent it without reporting to anybody in the
union meeting or anybody else as to how he spent it ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And as Brennan succeeded him, he destroyed the
books, and the books and the money both disappeared ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Then what happened to Connelly ?
Mr. Morgan. To Connelly?
Senator Mundt. Yes, to Connelly. What happened to Connelly?
I understand he was replaced by Mr. Brennan.
5374 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Morgan. Well, when Mr. Brennan was appointed trustee of the
local, as soon as he got the telegram from President Beck, he walked
up to the office and fired Connelly on the spot.
Senator Munpt. Did he stay fired ?
Mr. Morgan. He fired him and that was in August of 1955, and
the union was turned over to the members to run by Mr. Brennan and
everything seemed to be coming along fine. And then the first of Octo-
ber of 1955, Mr. Brennan came in one morning and told me, he said,
"I am going to be replaced as trustee," and I said, "How is this happen-
ing?" and he said, "Well, O'Brien from Chicago and Einar Mohn and
James Hoffa were in town yesterday and demanded that I either rein-
state Gerald Connelly or they would appoint a new trustee." He
said, "I refused to reinstate Connelly, and so we will just have to wait
and see what happens."
Senator MuNDT. What did happen ?
Mr. Morgan. About a week later, there was a telegram came in
stating that Roy Williams from Kansas City had been appointed a
new trustee of 548. He came in on a Monday morning and the books
were turned over to him, the new books that we had made up during
our time of running the union, and he immediately walked into the
office that I was occupying and told me that he would have to ask for
my resignation. At that time, I told him that I would refuse because
I knew that I represented the members. He said, "Well, your resig-
nation is accepted."
So that was at that time that I liad been expecting things like that
and I had petitions already made out, signed by the members, and
about 15 shops in the local, asking that I be certified by the National
Labor Relations Board under my own name to represent these people.
I went through all of the elections, and I think there were 7 elections
held and in most of the shops I received every vote cast, and in 1 vote,
1 shop, there was 5 people that voted for 548.
Senator Mundt. Voted with 548 ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. So you were elected to what? What did you be-
come ? You were elected to what ?
Mr. Morgan. I was elected to represent these people under my own
name.
Senator Mundt. In other words, they left 548 and joined what was
tantamount to a new local with you as the head ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. You represented them. Did they discontinue pay-
ing dues to 548 ?
Mr. Morgan. Well, the minute that I filed petitions with the Labor
Board, I notified all of the people in the shops not to pay any dues
to 548 or anything, because according to the law until a bargaining
agent was recognized and certified by the National Labor Relations
Board no one had to pay dues.
Senator Mundt. Out of the 350 members, roughly, of 548, how
many left 548 and came over to your shop ?
Mr. Morgan. I actually took roughly around 140 to 180, and it
depended on the seasons, I have some
Senator Mundt. Substantially half of them left 548 and came over
to you ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5375
Mr. Morgan. Yes, and I didn't petition for any of the liquor stores,
or a couple of other shops that had agreed that they would try to go
into other unions, because they did other types of work and would have
been better off.
Senator Mundt. Now, of the ones that remained in 548, did Con-
nelly get back into that organization in any way ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, he went back into 548 and represented the peo-
ple, or was supposed to have represented them, up until February
of 1956.
Senator Mundt. And he was brought in as a result of the pressures
of Einar Mohn and Jimmy Hoffa, and you mentioned a third one.
Mr. Morgan. Mr. O'Brien.
Senator Mundt. They kicked out Brennan because he refused to
put him in and they put in this other fellow who brought Connelly
back into the labor movement?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Wliich was so distasteful to the workers them-
selves that in all of the shops where you sought their membership,
you got them ? You said you got all but five in the shops where you
solicited. They left the other union ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Morgan, in addition to the situation that
you described, Mr. Connelly was also indicted, was he not, for re-
ceiving money from an employer, during this period of time ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Specifically, on September 9, 1954, the case was
instituted in the Federal courts against him, under the Taft-Hartley
Act?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he pled guilty on March 18, 1955 ; is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was sentenced to a fine on August 4, 1955,
sentenced to a fine of $2,000 ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was still running this union?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. On February 5, 1955, a second case was instituted
against him, is that not correct ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. IvENNEDY. That was, again, for extortion from an employer, or
receiving money from an employer ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That was known as the Archer-Daniels-Midland
case?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And involved in that was also this Mr. Brennan,
who is the vice president of the teamsters in that area ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
(At this point. Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. And also Mr. Eugene Williams ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
5376 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And he was a local teamster official ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvENNEDT. They were all indicted in connection with receiving
money from an employer?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvENNEDY. That was on February 5, 1955 ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Kennedy. So, prior to the action of putting this local into trus-
teeship, there were the complaints of the membership. Now, the
other officers had written to the international and complained about
Gerald Connelly, had they not ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy. And they had set forth the facts that he had made
sweetheart contracts, that he had not allowed the membership to re-
view the books, and that he had a dictatorial control over the local?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And that the local should be placed in trusteeship
because the membership were revoltmg against Gerald Connelly ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvENNEDY. And, in addition, he had been convicted for receiv-
ing money from an employer, and he had been indicted in connection
with receiving money from another employer, is that right?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So when you took this action and when the action
was taken by Einar Mohn and Jimmy Hoffa and Vice President
O'Brien, they took the action to put Gerald Connelly back in control-
ling the local, despite all of these facts that have been developed, is
that right?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you and the other officers of the local notified
them that all of these things were true ; isn't that right ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You named the employers with whom the sweet-
heart contracts had been completed ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you pointed out the fact that he had taken the
books, and you pointed out tlie fact that you had not been allowed to
review the books, and pointed out all of those matters, and that there
had been this close relationship between him and employers and that
he had allowed no democratic procedure within the union ; isn't that
right?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, in addition, you described to us one election;
and was there a second election in 1955 ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir ; there was.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee about that election?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. "VYhat date was that ?
Mr. Morgan. The second election, I believe, was either in June or
July of 1955. There were a couple of the officers and they had com-
plained about situations in their shops and in the local and every-
thing, and when they complained to Connelly, Connelly told them
that they were no longer officers of the union and that he had accepted
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5377
their resignations. And so he called for a new election to replace
these two people.
At that time, he had two officers of another union in Minneapolis,
local 918, conduct the election; and, again, at that time, he didn't
notify but a couple of the shops that they were having an election;
and the people came down and they elected two people to replace
them that hadn't been in the union, I don't think, 2 months. He
didn't care who they elected anyway, because he didn't figure on them
acting as officers and the only reason he wanted officers elected was so
that he could have them file non-Communist affidavits with the Labor
Board.
Mr. Kennedy. After this opposition from the officers, as well as
the membership, the other officers of the local as well as the member-
ship, he came in and told two of the officers that they were removed
from their jobs and they then held an election, but the election was
held by two of his colleagues in another local and run by them. The
officers that were then elected were people that had only been in the
union a couple of months ; is that right ?
Mr. Morgan, Yes, sir ; and then again at that time the people that
were elected turned against Connelly and signed a petition to put the
union into trusteeship. Wlien that thing was sent in, putting the
union in trusteeship, Connelly, at the hearing that they conducted in
Minneapolis, stated that the petition was illegal because the two peo-
ple that had signed the petition that were elected at the last election
weren't officers of the union, and at that timo 'le submitted names to
the hearing officer that they had sent in including the old officers that
he had replaced himself as officers.
Mr. Kennedy. So he said that these officers for whom he had ar-
ranged elections, when they filed a petition against him, he said that
they were elected illegally, is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Or that they shouldn't be allowed to file the peti-
tion?
Mr. Morgan. That is right, although these people signed non-
Communist affidavits and things, and Connelly himself had filed them
with the National Labor Relations Board.
Mr. Kennedy. So he was stuck back in. The trustee that was ap-
pointed, then, by Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Mohn and Mr. O'Brien put a
gentleman by the name of Roy Williams in ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Roy Williams. And he is a teamster official from
Kansas City?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is in the Central Conference of Teamsters, is
that right?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And he came up and appointed Gerald Connelly as
his representative to run the union ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And then Gerald Connelly continued to run the
union and then he went to trial for this second extortion ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was convicted on November 22, 1955 ?
89330—57 — pt. 14 7
5378 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. The court sentenced Connelly to 2 years imprison-
ment on March 20, 1956, and a fine of $7,500. During this period of
time he continued to run the union, is that right ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir; and he continued to run the union until
February of 1956, when I went into district court in the city of
Minneapolis and got a restraining order from the court forbidding
him to interfere with the operation of 548 or to intimate any members
or anything else from then on.
Mr. Kennedy. What date was that ?
Mr. Morgan. I believe it was signed on the 20th day of February
1956.
Mr. Kennedy. By that time, he had already been indicted for a
third offense, and that was a bombing, putting a bomb in someone's
car ?
Mr. Morgan. The court in Minneapolis, Judge Hall, signed a re-
straining order the day after the bombing took place in Minneapolis.
Mr. Kennedy. Now'^ as I understand, he placed a bomb in a man's
car, and also put some dynamite under this individuars home ; is that
right?
Mr. Morgan. He was convicted of having something to do with the
bombing of Mr. Felicetta's car in Minneapolis but lie was freed
on the charge on the house.
Mr. Kennedy. But, at that time, anyway, he had been indicted for
the bombing of the house and of the car ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, this gentleman in whose car he put the bomb
was a teamster official himself, was he not ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What he was mad about, as I understand it, was that
the other teamster local in Minneapolis was opposing some of his
activities, and were not recognizing what he was doing, and so he
thought he would put some dynamite in their cars and in the home ?
Mr. JMoRGAN. Yes, and the other teamster officials refused to recog-
nize his picket lines around liquor stores, and continued to deliver
goods through Connelly's picket line.
The Chairman. Let me inquire. You finally had to go to court
to get rid of Connelly ?
Mr. Morgan. I went to the court, and also to the National Labor
Relations Board.
The Chairman. You had to go to both. You could not get any
relief, and you could not get any consideration from the higher officials,
the international officials, of the union?
Mr. Morgan. None whatsoever.
The Chairman. Mr. Mohn and Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Beck, and those
folks to whom you appealed, would not respond and give you any
assistance in getting rid of him?
Mr. Morgan. I would have to answer that, that Mr. Beck, himself,
appointed Brennan as trustee, and Connelly was fired.
The Chairman. He only served about 3 months, and then he was
removed ?
Mr. Morgan. That is right. And so the pressure from other officials
forced Beck to replace Brennan as trustee, and, at that time, nobody
could get any relief from anything from then on.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5379
The Chairman-. As I miderstand it, Beck first responded and re-
moved him and appointed Brennan, was it?
Mr, Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. And Brennan served about 3 months.
Mr. Morgan. I think it was around the 15th of August until, prob-
ably, the 20tli of October. Probably a month and 1 week; 5 weeks.
The Chairman. He only served a little over a month.
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman^. And such pressure, you think, was brought to bear
on Beck that he had to relieve him as trustee ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
The Chairman. Then when they relieved him, they appointed Roy
L.Williams?
Mr. Morgax. Yes.
The Chairman. From Kansas City ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
The Chairman. And he came in, then, and reestablished Connelly
as head of the union, as his representative?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
The Chairman. And that in spite of all these things that occurred,
these convictions and the protest of these union members, everyone
trying to get rid of him?
Mr. Morgan. Yes. He also sent each of the elected officers letters
notifying the rest of the officers that they no longer were officers of
the union.
The Chairman. Who sent the letters ?
Mr. Morgan. Roy Williams.
The Chairman. When he became trustee, he just simply reinstated
Connelly down there to run it.
Mr. Morgan. And fired all the other union officers.
The Chairman. He was appointed by whom? Williams was ap-
pointed by whom ?
Mr. Morgan. It had to come from the international president.
The Chairman. He was appointed by the international ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Tlie Chairman. Any authority or control over him was by Mr.
Hoffa. Was he not in that conference or region ?
Mr. Morgan. The only thing I can say is that all correspondence
and everything had Mr. Beck's name on it.
Senator McNamara. How did Connelly first come into thepicture?
Was he appointed, or was he elected ?
Mr. Morgan. I don't know who could have elected him because
when he first came into the picture he had no members.
Senator INIcNamara. Then he organized the local ?
Mr. Morgan. What?
Senator McNamara. Did he organize the local ?
Mr. Morgan. No ; they were turned over to him by other unions.
Senator McNamara. Turned over to him. You mean they gave
him the charter ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Or did he have a charter from some other
source?
Mr. ]\IoRGAN. To start out with, he had this charter with the build-
ing-service employees, and then the members were given him at that
5380 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
time, and when he went back into the teamsters he just took them
all with him.
Senator McNamara. You take it they were given to him by the
international. They transferred some members into his union?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator McNamara. In effect, they set him up.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator McNamara. You say that Connelly accepted the resig-
nation of the officers. Do you remember saying that ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator ISIcNamara. In the second election.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Did the officers voluntarily resign, or did he
just say that they resigned ?
Mr. Morgan. They have not resigned any time that I ever knew
up until today.
Senator McNamara. They never resigned ?
Mr. Morgan. They never resigned ; no.
Senator McNamara. You knew today they had resigned. What do
you mean by that ?
Mr. Kennedy. As of today.
Mr. Morgan. I stated that Connelly told these people that he had
accepted their resignation.
Senator McNamara. Although they had not offered it.
Mr. Morgan. They had not offered it.
Senator ]McNA:srARA. How many members do you have?
Mr. Morgan. In 548?
Senator McNamara. Yes.
Mr. Morgan. In 548 there were between 350 and 400.
Senator McNaimara. l^^iat is your relationship to the local as of
now?
Mr. Morgan. None.
Senator McNaisiara. You are completely out of it ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Are they operating now under a teamster
charter ?
Mr. Morgan. No. That is completely defunct.
Senator McNamara. Is the organization out of existence ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator McNamara. There is no organization of these same em-
ployees ?
Mr. Morgan. No. I took half of the union away from Connelly
myself, and the rest of the members into other unions. The liquor
stores and a couple of the shops are still in the teamsters but under
different locals.
Senator McNamara. You still have this half of the membership ?
Mr. Morgan. I do, yes.
Senator McNamara. How do you operate? Not under a teamsters
charter.
Mr. Morgan. No.
Senator McNamara. Do you have any charter ?
Mr. Morgan. I have a charter with the International Brotherhood
of Longshoremen, AFL-CIO, although the members I represent, I
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5381
represent as an individual, and I have organized several small shops
under that union.
Senator McNamara. Then how many members do you have now ?
Mr. Morgan. In the summertime I have around 140 and in the
winter it goes up to around 180 or possibly up to 200.
Senator McNamara. Do you have an established wage scale ?
Mr. Morgan. Established wage scale ?
Senator McNamara. Yes.
Mr. Morgan. Yes. All my shops are different types of work so I
have different contracts with each of the different shops.
Senator McNamara. Negotiated through collective bargaining.
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
Senator McNamara. And you represent these employees in dealing
with the employers in that industry ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Are they mostly miscellaneous employees?
Do they have any skills ?
Mr. Morgan. It is mostly practicfilly common labor work.
Senator McNamara. Wliat do the imion wage scales run, from what
to what ?
Mr. Morgan. They run all the way from around $1.10 an liour up to
$2 and something. It depends on the type of operations.
Senator McNamara. Considerably lower than the teamsters wage
scale in that area is it not ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator McNamara. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Senator ]\Iundt. What happened to Mr. Brennan at the time Wil-
liams came along and replaced him ?
Mr. Morgan. At the time Mr. Brennan was relieved as tmstee of
tlie union and Williams came in, he had to surrender the books and
all records that he had in his possession to Williams.
Senator Mundt, Did he drop out of the picture entirely ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. I thought that counsel mentioned some place in
reading from one of the documents that Connelly and Brennan had
been indicted for extortion.
Mr. Morgan. Yes. They were convicted together.
Senator Mundt. Had they been working together in this conspiracy
to extort ?
Mr. Morgan. As near as I ever knew Bremien and Connelly were
bitter enemies and always had been.
Senator Mundt. That is what I gathered from your testimony, but
when I heard him say that they were indicted for extortion, I gath-
ered the impression that they had worked together on this extortion.
Maybe they were two separate cases of extortion.
Mr. Morgan. Anything that happened on that, that was all prior
to my association with the teamsters in any manner. So they might
have been friendly at one time.
Senator Mundt. In other words, they might have conspired to-
gether in extortion and some place along the line they had a falling
out later.
Mr. Morgan. It could be, yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Could counsel give me any information on that
extortion case in which they worked together ?
5382 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. They at one time were friendly. This is an extor-
tion case. It is a conspiracy to extort and I think that the employer —
I know that the employer paid to all three of them. They formed a
fictitious company in Chica^-o. It was formed by Connelly's son and
the money was paid by the employer to this company, and the divi-
dends were split betAveen the three of them.
Senator Mundt. Someplace along the line after that they had a
falling out.
Mr. Kexnedy. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Probably they did not divide up the spoils prop-
erly. This conspiracy to extort preceded the time you have been
talking about when these incidents occurred.
Mr. AIoRGAN. Yes.
Senator Mundt. By that time they had become bitter enemies after
having been coconspirators.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know who paid the legal fees on this first
case of Connelly, the second case of Connelly and the third case of
dynamiting? Do you know who paid Mr. Connelly's legal fees during
this period of time 'i
Mr. Morgan. No, I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call Mr. Adlerman,
who has made an examination of the records, to throw some light on
that.
The Chairiman. All right, Mr. .Vdlerman. You have been pre-
viously sworn in this hearing.
Mr. Adlerman. Not in this hearing.
The CiiAiR^kiAN. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Adlerman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JEROME ADLERMAN
The Chairman. Be seated and proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Adlerman, you are a member of the staff of
this committee?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You are chief assistant counsel?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you been working with the Senate for now
some 9 or 10 years ?
Mr. Adlerman. For the past 11 years.
Mr Kennedy. You have made an examination and investigation
of the fees that were paid in connection with Mr. — legal fees — in
connection with Mr. Connelly's activities up in Minneapolis?
Mr. Adlerman. I have.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell the committee the total fees that you
have found so far that were paid in connection with the first case of
receiving money from an employer, the second case involving Con-
nelly, Brennan, and Williams receiving money from an employer, and
the third case of the dynamiting involving Mr. Connelly ? How much
money was paid by the union in connection with those three cases?
Mr, Adlerman. There are actually 4 cases, because the dynamiting
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5383
cases are divided, 1 case in Ileiinepiii County and 1 case which was
subsequently divided into 2 in Ramsey County, which is St. Paul.
The total fees paid out by the unions for the defense of these four
cases totaled $54,381.55.
The CiiAiR3iAN. Who were those fees paid for?
IMr. Adlermax. They were paid mostly for the defense of Connelly,
though partly it was paid out for the defense of other defendants.
The Chairman. What were they charged with ?
Mr. Adlerman. In the first case it was a violation of the Taft-
Hartley Act. The defendants in that case were Gerald Connelly and
two locals. That was in the fourth division of the Federal court in
Minnesota. They were charged with violation of the Taft-Hartley
Act, evidently obtaining money from employers.
The Chairman. In other words, extortion.
Mr. Adlerman. I think it was an improper use of the money ob-
tained from employers. It should have gone into the welfare fund
and evidently did not.
The Chairsean. In other words, they were taking money from em-
ployers that they had no right to receive.
Mr. Adlerman. I believe it was more in the nature of an improper
use.
Senator Mundt. I gather from what you said that it was improper
use of the union members' money that should haA^e gone into welfare
funds for them, but which they diverted for their own purposes.
Mr. Adlerman. I am not quite certain, but, as I understand it, the
Taft-Hartley law has a provision that the unions are not allowed to
take money from an employer unless it goes into the health and wel-
fare funds.
ISIr. Kennedy. They were receiving the money from the employer
and diverting it — Connelly was diverting it to his own use.
Mr. Adlerman. That would be properly stated.
The second case, which is known as the Archer-Daniels-Midland
case, was in the Federal Court, Fourth Division, in Minneapolis, Minn.
The defendants in that case were Connelly, Brennan, Jorgenson, and
Eugene Williams. That is a case, I think, which was discussed before
by this witness. Again it was a conspiracy to extort money from the
union.
Mr. Kennedy. From the employer ?
Mr. Adlerman. From the employer. I am sorry. In that case they
had several counsel. The chief counsel was Mr. Edward Bennett Wil-
liams, and he received a total of $26,953, and Mr. Elmer Ryan received
$5,000. The other attorneys apparently were not paid.
The Chair]>l\n. You mean these fees were paid out of union funds ?
Mr. Adlerman. They were paid out of the Central Conference of
Teamsters' funds.
Mr. Kennedy. Who signed those checks, Mr. Adlerman ?
Mr. Adler:man. That I cannot say.
Mr. Kennedy. From your i-eview of the records, who was responsible
for forwarding these moneys to these attorneys ?
Mr. Adlerman. I believe it probably was Mr. James Hoffa.
Senator Mundt. Who Avere the attorneys in the first case? Were
they the same attorneys ?
Mr. Adlerman. Which case ?
Senator Mundt. The first case.
5384 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Adlerman. The first case was Mr. Irving Nemerov, for Gerald
Connelly, and Mr. Thomas Kachelmacher, for the two locals. They
received a $5,000 fee from the Central Conference of Teamsters on
January 21, 1955.
The Chairman. Am I correct now that you had $54,000 ?
Mt.Adlerman. $54,381.55.
The Chairman. Then you had another item of $26,900.
Mr. Adlerman. No ; that is inclusive.
The Chairman. That is what I am trying to get clear for the
record— $54,381.55.
Mr. Adlerman. Is the total figure. Included in that is the amount
paid to Edward Bennett Williams of $26,953.55, which may include
some disbursements, I suppose.
The Chairman. You have $26,000 to Williams and $5,000 to the
other attorneys. So that is only $31,000.
Mr. Adlerman. I have the figures of what the other attorneys got.
The Chairman. As I get the significance of this, they were rob-
bing the union in the first place, and then the union pays to defend
them.
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct. The second case involved the con-
spiracy to obtain money from an employer, and the third case was a
dynamiting case. As a matter of fact, they dynamited the home —
that is the third and fourth case, I should say — they dynamited the
home and automobile of two other teamster officials.
Mr. Kennedy. So the union paid large sums of money to defend
them in the first place when they were taking money from their own
membership, and in the second instance they used union funds to de-
fend them when Connelly put dynamite in the home and car of two
teamster officials.
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. The union funds were used to defend Mr. Connelly
in those matters.
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. This was despite the fact that Mr. Morgan and the
other officials of that local had protested for a period of a year as to
Mr. Connelly's activities.
Mr. Adlerman. I have a summary of the amount of fees to Mr.
Connelly, if you would like to have them.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to find out on the third and fourth cases,
after that dynamiting, did Mr. Hoffa make any statement as to his
relationship with Mr. Comielly at that time ?
Mr. Adlerman. He did.
Mr. Kennedy. He made a public statement.
Mr. x4.dlerman. Yes. I have a newspaper clipping, dated May 10,
1956, "Hoffa Eeads Connelly Out of Teamsters." It goes on to say
that he read him out of the teamsters on Wednesday. "We have no
intention of replacing Connelly in an organizational capacity in this
area." He was taxed with that question, and he replied that it meant
in any area.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time he stated immediately after this bomb-
ing, and the indictment of Connelly that the union would have no
more to do with Connelly.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5385
Mr. Kennedy. Yet despite that fact, the union paid Mr. Connelly's
lecal fees in connection with the dynamiting ?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes. I can give you a breakdown. , ^ ,, ,
The Chairman. Let that paper that you have referred to there be
made an exhibit No. 5 for reference.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Adlerman. The paragraph states: "Hoffa's repudiation of
Connelly was in contrast to Connelly's oft-repeated claims of Holla s
sponsorship and Hoffa's former defense of the Minneapolis Team-
sters Hieafue • • i
The Chairman. As I understand the significance of this, notwith-
standing that Hoffa made a public statement that he was not going to
use Connelly any more
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct. , , . , ^ . ^i, • -u^
The Chairman. He then financed his defense for the crime he
committed.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
The Chairman. Out of union funds.
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct. ^ ^ ^.-u n t.
Senator McNamara. You indicated in what you refer to as the first
case that Connelly and two local unions were the defendants.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right. , , -, ■ o
Senator McNamara. Did they name the local union i
Mr. Adlerman. Yes, local 548 and local 194.
Senator McNamara. Connelly was indicted as a representative of
these two locals and no other individuals were named, is that cor-
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. He was indicted? ^1,11.
Mr Adlerman. He was indicted together with two other locals.
The Chairman. I think there is something else significant there.
Although the locals were indicted, Connelly was the one completely
in charge and operating them. So whatever reflection there is on the
locals C'onnelly is responsible for it. . ,-, ^ r^ n iaa
Mr Adlerman. My recollection, Senator, is that Connelly pleaded
euiltv on 1 count, and the other 2 counts which I believe were against
the unions were probably dismissed. I am not positive about that.
The Chairman. I understand. But whatever act the unions were
charged with, Connelly was responsible for them because he was oper-
ating and dominating the unions.
Mr. Adlerman. I believe that is true.
The Chairman. May I ask the witness?
Mr. Adlerman. I am sorry. The unions were also fined.
The Chairman. Mr. Morgan, is that correct?
Mr. Morgan. Yes. . _,,
Mr Adlerman. I would like to make a correction. 1 he unions
were also fined in that case, but the last two counts m the indictment
were dismissed. , ^ . i i „ „„ +«
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Adlerman, what does the record show as to
where these funds came from? ,
Mr. Adlerman. Which case are you referring to? i i d>K^ nnn?
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever broken down as to the whole ^54,uuu «
Mr. Adlerman. Yes, I have.
5386 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE L.\BOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did the funds all come from locals or unions of
the Central Conference of Teamsters over which Mr. Iloffa has
control ?
Mr. Adlerman. A very large part of it came from the Central
Conference of Teamsters itself.
Mr. Kennedy. I am now talking about the organization of the
Central Conference of Teamsters. Did this money all come from
the organization of the Central Conference of Teamsters or a unit
thereof ?
Mr. Adlerman. Some came from units of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did it all come either from the Central Conference
of Teamsters or a unit of the Central Conference of Teamsters?
Mr. Adlerman. I believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. Don't 3'ou have it there ?
Mr. Adlerman. The Central Drivers Council I think is probably
part of the Central Conference of Teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
Mr. Adlerman. The National Warehouse Division, I believe, is part
of the Central Conference of Teamsters.
The Chairman. Does the witness know ? Do you know about that ?
Mr. Adlerman. I don't know as a fact.
The Chairman. Mr. Morgan, do you knoAv definitely ?
Mr. ISIORGAN. No.
Mr. Kennedy. The individual signing the checks of these other or-
ganizations is Mr. Harold Gibbons.
Mr. Adlerman. I know he signed some of them.
Mr. Kennedy. He is an officer of the Central Conference of Team-
sters that works under ]Mr. Hofi'a, is that correct ?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you liave some correspondence there showing that
the responsibility for the moneys being paid in defense of Mr. Con-
nelly was Mr. Gibbons' and Mr. HofFa's ?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes. I believe those lettei's are on your desk.
Mr. Kennedy. Before you get into that, could you tell us how much
was paid by the teamsters union for the defense of the third and fourth
case, that bombing case, out of union funds after Mr. Hoft'a made the
statement that they would have nothing moi'e to do with Mr. Connelly ?
Mr. Adlerman. A total of $17,428 was p)aid out for the defense of
Connelly on the 2 dj^iamiting cases, of wliicli $500 I think is still
unexpended.
Mr. Kennedy. So some $17,000 was paid out of union funds to de-
fend Mr. Connelly for dynamiting a home and the cars of 2 teamster
officials?
Mr. Adlerman. In addition to that there is an outstanding bill of
$5,000 Avhich has not yet been paid.
Mr. Kennedy. But $17,000 has already been paid and there is an-
other $5,000 bill outstanding ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Making a total of $22,000 which has been charged to
the union.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, would you give us the breakdown as to what
units of the teamsters paid these sums of money ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5387
Mr. Adlermax. On January 21, 1955, the Central Conference of
Teamsters paid to Kachelniaclier and Irving- Nenierov $25,000.
On June 28, 1955, they paid $2,500 to Elmer Ryan, an attorney for
Brennan. On Jmie 28, 1955, they paid $5,000 to Edward Bennett
Williams, chief comisel in the Archer Daniels Midland case.
On November 7, 1955, they paid $2,500 to Elmer Ryan. On Novem-
ber 28, 1955, thev paid $10,750 to Edward Bennett Williams. On Jmie
12, 1956, he ])aid $10,000 to Edward Bennett Williams or rather the
Central Conference of Teamsters did.
On July 16, 1956, a check of $1,197.55 was paid out to Edward Ben-
nett Williams.
Mr. Kennedy. Is this all from that one organization ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is only as to the first two cases. The third
case was treated quite differently.
Mr. Kennedy. But the Central Conference of Teamsters paid for
the first two cases ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is right. All of the bills on the first case was
paid out of the Central Conference of Teamsters,
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Harold Gibbons is secretary-treasurer of that
organization, is he not?
Mr. Adlerman. I believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you not have some correspondence that indi-
cates that Mr. Harold Gibbons was taking the responsibility for mak-
ing sure that the payments were made, under the direction of Mr.
Hoffa?
Mr. Adlerman. I don't personally have that correspondence. I do
have some correspondence, I think, relating to the dynamiting case.
Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me. It is that case.
Mr. Adler:man. Now, insofar as the dynamiting cases are con-
cerned, 1 case was in Minneapolis and 1 case in St. Paul, they made a
little diilerent arrangement. I found that the Central States Drivers
Council turned over to Mr. Sol Robins, or the firm of Robins, Davis &
Lyons on March 12, 1952, $5,000. On June 4, 1956, the Central States
Drivers Council turned over $5,000 to the firm of Robins, Davis &
Lyons.
On June 7, 1956, the National Warehouse Division sent the firm
$5,000, and on December 6, 1956, the Central Conference of Teamsters
sent $2,428, making a total of $17,428.
Now, this amount was sent to Mr. Robins as is indicated in the cor-
respondence, for him to pay out on proper presentation of bills from
lawyers. The idea was that the money would not be frittered away
in some other way and that the lawyers fees would be paid out of it.
Mr. Robins did not defend these men, but just acted as s(n"t of a pay-
master for the union when lie received these funds.
I have a breakdown here of how those fees were paid out, if you
want to go into that.
The Chairman. Proceed. Do it briefly.
Mr. Adlerman. In the first instance, it was a Mr. Ben Dranow, who
is the owner of the John H. Thomas store in Minneapolis, a large
department store, came to Mr. Sidney Golf, the attorney for Connelly,
and gave him a check for $2,500.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the purpose of that check ? Mr. Dranow
was what ?
5388 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Adlerman. Mr. Goff was retained by Connelly to defend him in
the St. Paul dynamiting case. Mr. Goff stated he would not take the
case unless he received $5,000 downpayment, as part of his fee.
Senator Mundt. How did Mr. Dranow get into the act?
Mr. Adlerman. It is clear that Mr. Dranow was called by someone
in the teamsters, and probably Hoffa, since he evidently knows Hoffa
quite well, who called him up and asked him to deliver a check imme-
diately to Mr. Goff.
Senator Mundt. A'^^liere did Dranow get the check ? Was it his own
money ?
Mr. Adlerman. It was drawn on a California bank. As to the
incident of the check, we can't trace that check for this reason : The
same day that he gave Mr. Goff the check he called Mr. Goff up
and asked him to hold the check since he had insufficient funds, and
he would come down the same day or the next day and deliver $2,500
to him in cash.
Mr. Dranow, incidentally, was then reimbursed by Mr. Sol Robins
on June 12, 1956. The interesting connection with Robins, Davis
& Lyons in this case lies in the fact that they represented the union
as the Michigan Conference of Teamsters on a loan of $200,000 made
to the Thomas store on June 6, 1956, and they represented the store
in turn and not the union when the Central States southeast and
southwest area welfare fund loaned the store $1 million on May 24
of this year.
Senator Muxdt. Can you give us any reason, Mr. Adlerman, why
the $2,000 which apparently originated
Mr. Adlerman. That is $2,500.
Senator Mundt. $2,500.
Mr. Adlerman. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. That money apparently originated out of this
pool which was being collected by Robins and his firm. Why did
Robins and his group not take the money over to Goff?
Mr. Adlerman. That was before Robins received the first check.
Senator Mundt. I see. This was in the nature of an advance from
which he was later reimbursed.
Mr. Adler]V£a.n. There was some urgency in getting a payment to
the attorney as fast as possible, so he would represent Mr. Connelly
in the dynamiting.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Dranow is an employer ?
Mr. Adlerman. No ; he is the sole owner, I believe, or I would say
probably the very large principal owner of the Thomas Department
Store. He told me he is the sole owner, but I should be surprised
at that.
Senator Mundt. Is he an employer of the teamsters ?
Mr. Adlerman. No; he bought the company about the same time
that they made the loan of $200,000. He had been employed in the
company before that.
Senator Mundt. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dranow advanced a $2,500 check to this law
firm to pay for a fee in comiection with the involvement of Mr. Con-
nelly in the dynamiting ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he asked for the check back and then gave
$2,500 in cash ; is that right ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5389
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And then, subsequently, he obtained control of the
Thomas Department Store ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And during the same period of time in which he
obtained control of the Thomas Department Store, the teamsters
loaned the Thomas Department Store $200,000 ; is that right ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. What date was the loan of the $200,000 to the
Thomas Department Store ?
Mr. Adlerman. June 6, 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, on June 6, 1956, was the Thomas Department
Store on strike by the retail clerks ?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes ; they had a strike there for about 3 years prior
to that continuously.
Mr. Ivennedy. So the teamsters loaned $200,000 to the Thomas
Department Store at a time that they were on strike by another union ;
is that right ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy. And the loan was negotiated by Mr. Dranow, who
was the same gentleman that had advanced the money for Mr. Con-
nelly in connection with this dynamiting case?
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Dranow was subsequently reimbursed by
the teamsters ?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. Have you also learned that Mr. Connelly's son
worked at the Thomas Department Store ?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes. Mr. Connelly's son worked for a subsidiary
of the Thomas Department Store under the name of Kelly.
Mr. Kennedy. He took an assumed name ; is that right ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is correct.
Mr. I^NNEDY. He did not use his own name ?
Mr. Alderman. He did not use his own name.
Mr. Ivennedy. And he worked under the name of "Kelly" for Dra-
now in the Thomas Department Store ?
Mr. Adlerman. With the full knowledge of Dranow, that he was
using the name "Kelly" as a fictitious name.
Senator Mundt. When you say he "worked," you mean he was one
of the employees who went on strike or that he was in a managerial
echelon ?
Mr. Adlerman. I do not know in what position he had.
Senator Mundt. Now, let me finish my question before you answer
it. When you say he "worked" there, was he working as one of the
retail clerks, who was on strike, or was he working in a managerial
position ?
Mr. Adlerman. I believe he was working on the managerial side of
the company.
Senator Mundt. Then it would appear to me — is this a correct
analysis of what actually happened — that the teamsters loaned money
to the Dranow interests to help them break the strike imposed upon
them by another union ?
Mr. Adlerman. I don't know whether that was the essential
purpose.
5390 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. It would work out to that end. The department
store had been on strike for several months and it was in financial
straits. In order for them to continue operations under those condi-
tions they needed money ; so they go to one union to get financed to
strengthen their hands so that they can resist the strike imposed by
another union,
Mr. Adlermax. I think it played a part.
Senator oSIuxdt. It would look like a strikebreaker's loan to me.
Senator McNamara. You indicate in your testimony that Dranow
obtained control of the Thomas Co. How did he obtain control ? By
purchase or by muscle, or what is the story ?
Mr. Adlerman. As I get it, Senator, and it is a very difficult thing
to get any facts from Mr. Dranow, I can tell you that
The Cpiairman. Is he the one in the hospital ?
]\[r. Adlermax. He went into tlie hospital on, I believe, Thursday
or Friday night.
Mr. Kennedy. That was after you had interviewed him?
Mr. Adlerman. After I had interviewed him and after I served
with him a subpena to appear here. My examination of the records
disclosed, Senator, that he had an option to purchase 25 percent of the
stock in the company, supposedly at the price of $75,000, which was
to come out of a profit-sharing scheme with the owner of the com-
pany, Mr. Yalomstein. He claimed at first that he did pay the $75,000
in my interview with him, and he finally admitted that he never paid
a cent for that. Then, just prior, and sort of a condition to the loan,
he made an arrangement to jnirchase about 58,000 shares of stock
from Mr. Yalomstein. The consideration was $15,714. In addi-
tion, he guaranteed to 'Mr. Yalomstein a yearly salo.ry of $25,000 for
10 years if ]Mr. Yalomstein lived that long. I think Mr. Yalomstein
is a very elderly man, in the neighborhood of about 78 years. In the
event that Yalomstein died, he was to pay his wife for a period of no
longer than 5 years, unless that 5 years had already elapssed. So
that he got the assets of the company for practically a payment of
$13,000, or say $14,000, and a contract to pay the former owner out of
the store's income. This took place simultaneously with the granting
of the $200,000 loan.
Senator McNamara. It was all around .Time 6 ?
Mr. Adlerman. I believe so, and I would like to verify that date,
if I can.
Senator McNamaRxV. While you are looking that up, was this $1
million loan made by the Central Conference of Teamsters ?
Mr. Adlerman. The $1 million loan was made by the Central States
Southeast-Southeast Area Welfare Fund.
Senator McNamara. They made a loan of $1 million on this busi-
ness that the man acquired for $13,714 ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, IMr. Dranow has even a more active role in
this matter, does he not. Mr. Adlerman ?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes ; he does.
Mr. Kennedy. And his relationship with Mr. Connellv and Mr.
Hoffa?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us, specifically i]i connection with the
dynamiting, where was Mr. Connelly, from your review of the
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5391
records, during the period prior to tlie dynamiting and subsequent to
the dynamiting ?
Mr. Adlerman. As I understand it
Mr, Kennedy. Have you reviewed the recoaxls, and so you know ?
Mr. Adleeman. That is right.
The Chairman. What records ? Let us get it straight.
Mr. Adlerman. I have the airplane tickets showing the travel, and
I have some hotel records, and I have also examined the criminal-court
records and the records in the police department in IMinneapolis and
also the county courts' office and the county attorney's office.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the date of the dynamiting?
Mr. Adlerman. The date of the dynamiting was the night of the
10th of February 1956, and the morning of the 11th. That is a. m.,
and p. m., of the 10th and 11th.
Mr. Kennedy. T\niere was Mr. Connelly on that night ?
Mr. Adlerman. Mr. Connelly left Minneapolis and went to Miami
on February 6, 1956, and stayed at the Waves Hotel.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did he leave Minneapolis with?
Mr. Adlerman. He left alone. Two days later, Mr. Dranow flew
down, on February 8, 1956, and he registered, also, at the Waves Hotel.
Mr. Kennedy. A^liat room number did ]\Ir. Connelly have?
Mr. Adlerman. Mr. Connelly occupied room No. 301.
Mr. Kennedy. And what room number did ]\Ir. Dranow have?
Mr. Adlerman. I believe 803, but I am not too certain. I can nuike
certain.
Mr. Kennedy. It is room 303. according to < he records.
The Chairman. Those are adjoining rooms '.
Mr. Adlerman. I believe they are. Senator.
Mr. Dranow occupied room 303, and Mr. Connelly occupied room
301.
This is the air-travel ticket of Mr. Connelly showing he left Minne-
apolis to go to Miami cm February G.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit No. 6.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 6,'' for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5727.)
Mr. Adlerman. I have the air-travel ticket of Mr. Dranow show-
ing that he left IMineapolis on February 8 and flew to Miami.
The Chairman. That will be made exhibit No. 7.
(The document referred to was marked ''Exhibit No. 7," for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5728.)
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Adlerman, Mr. Connelly had hired two
individuals up in Minneapolis to do the dynamiting for him?
Mr. Adlerman. Yes, sir ; as a matter of fact, there were three in-
dividuals. There was a Mr. Bryan Flick, a Mr. Reddin, and a Mr.
Lattin.
The Chairman. Were they convicted?
Mr. Adler:man. Mr. Flick was convicted, and Mr. Connelly was
convicted, and the plan for the dynamiting took place prior to Mr.
Connelly going down to Miami, and the details of it were discussed
over the telephone before and after the dynamiting took place.
Senator jSIundt. How much Avere they paid for the dynamiting?
Mr. Adlerman. I don't know that. Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. Don't they state what they were going to get was
a charter for a union?
r
5392 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Adlerman. Mr. Flick, Bryan Flick, came to Connelly with
the idea of getting a charter for a hairdressers union. He had tried
to get a charter from other union officials, and he had no success. Con-
nelly promised that he would help them, but he told him in the mean-
time, "Suppose you work for me as an organizer." Part of his organ-
izing activities was strong-arm tactics, and when they had trouble
organizing the liquor stores, the 2 unions, 1 in St. Paul, and 1 in
Minneapolis, the beverage drivers union refused to recognize the
picket line established by Connelly and Flick. This is Mr. Wagner
and Mr. Tony Felicetta, and those were the two men whose houses
and autos were b-ombed.
Mr. Kennedy. ]\Ir. Flick, according to his statement, was expect-
ing to get through Mr. Connelly a union charter.
5lr. Adlerman. That is right, and as I understand it he had called
up Connelly while he was at the Waves Hotel in Miami before and
after the bombing took place, and discussed with him at that time
getting the charter for the hairdressers' union.
Mr. ICennedy. And also they had to determine their plans as
to whether they would use dynamite or whether they would use brass
knuckles; is that right?
Mr. Adlerman. As Mr. Flick told me, he said prior to the time that
Connelly went down, they had planned to take some drastic action
against Felicetta and Wagner. The means that they were going to
use were uncertain and they had discussed dynamiting with Connelly
and he had discussed it with a Mr. Hj'de, who was a licensed dynamite
man who was supposed to help them as to the qualities of dynamite
and whether it was blast or 1 stick or 2 sticks, and so forth.
They also discussed the possibility of using a shotgun blast into a
car, or using a brass-laiuckle job on Felicetta.
Senator Mundt. Let me ask you this : From what you know of the
case, was murder contemplated or was it simply to frighten them ?
Mr. Adlerman. I don't believe murder was contemplated. They
used only one stick of dynamite in the car and they used only one
stick of dynamite against the house, and I think it was more of a
terrorizing scheme than anything else.
Senator Mundt. Wlien you talked about a shotgun blast, that
sounded like murder.
Mr. Adlerman. That would be probably into an empty car or some-
thing. I didn't get the understanding at all that it was a murder case.
Senator Mundt. Brass knuckles would involve considerable rough-
ing up, and it could be murder if you hit him too hard with a pair
of brass knuckles.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. But when Connelly was down in Miami, do the
records at the hotel indicate that he was in communication with Mr.
Flick from his hotel room ?
Mr. Adlerman. They were in communication together and that is
indicated by the telephone calls and Mr. Flick stated he was.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there anything else of significance regarding
the trip ?
Mr. Adlerman. Well, the bill for Connelly's stay
Mr. Kennedy. And could you go into the names ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5393
Mr. Adlerman. As to the telephone calls, there were calls coming
out of room 301, made to the miion office where he talked to Flick,
and also to his secretary.
Up to February 9, which is the day before the dynamiting, Con-
nelly used his own name; on the 11th, the day after, he used the
name "Cohen."
In the Thomas Department Store we found a bill from the Waves
Hotel, which was paid by the John Thomas Stores, for Mr. Dranow
and for a George Cohen of room 301, for 2-6, 2-7, 2-8, 2-9, and 2-10,
and the amount of that bill is $75.
Incidentally, I might say that it was almost impossible to get the
records from the Waves Hotel, because there had been a deliberate
attempt, I believe, to destroy the records.
Mr. Kennedy. By the former management ?
Mr. Adlerman. By a former manager, Mr. Charles Kaplan, who
has told the present manager that Mr. Dranow had an interest in
the Waves Hotel and an interest in his share of the hotel. I don't
know that first-hand but one of our investigators has told me that.
Now, we did find one bill of the Waves Hotel which was paid by
Thomas Department Store and it shows that the bill is $77.25, which
would include the $2.25 for the tax. This bill is in the name of
Connelly, and it is dated February 6, 1956, rate of $15 a day, and
it shows that he occupied room 301.
Originally it was 306 and it was crossed out and 301 put up above,
and he stayed there between the 6th and 11th.
Mr. Kennedy. What the record shows is that up until February 9,
the night of the bombing, Connelly was in there under his own name,
and after that he used the name "Cohen," and that the bill was sent
to the Thomas Department Store for that room, amounting to $77.25.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And that bill was paid or Connelly's bill at that hotel
was paid for by the Thomas Department Store.
Mr. Adlerman. I have the check for that ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That was during the period of time that he was
Elanning the bombing, the decision as to whether it would be brass
nuckles, the dynamiting, or the blast through the window with a
shotgun.
Mr. Adlerman. Yes, so Mr. Flick, one of the defendants, tells me.
The Chairman. The hotel bill may be made exhibit 8 and the check
exhibit 9.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 8 and 9"
for reference and will be found in the appendix on p. 5729, 5730.)
Mr. Adlerman. I have a copy of the entry in the John Thomas De-
partment Store showing that.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat is that ?
Mr. Adlerman. This is taken from the books of the John Thomas
Department Store and it shows the bill for Dranow and the account
of George Cohen, in room 301 for that same day.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit 10.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 10" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5731.)
Mr. Kennedy. I want to get in the record the letters that you have,
Mr. Adlerman, showing Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Gibbons' relationship
89330— 57— pt. 14 8
r
5394 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
toward the payment of these fees for Mr. Connelly in connection par-
ticularly with this dynamiting.
( Some documents were handed to the witness. )
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have a number of 8 or 10 different
letters here, and I don't think it is necessary to read them all into the
record, but it would be helpful if they were made a part of the record,
as they are of some significance.
The Chairman. How many are there? The series, whatever they
are, may be made exhibit No. 11, and you will not read all of the
letters, but any signihcant contents you may quote and discuss.
(The documents referred to were marked ''Exhibit No. 11" for refer-
ence and may be found in the hies of the select committee.)
Mr. Kennedy. I don't think we have to put them all in.
Mr. Adlerman. This letter is written on the Shorelands Hotel sta-
tioriery, sent in an envelope postmarked March 8, 1956, to Mr. Solly
Robbins of St. Paul, Minn. It states :
Mr. Solly Robuixs : Enclosed you will find check. I understand Gordon has
talked to you about this. I am sending this from hotel because I will not be home
until next week. If I can help in any way, please let me know. My address is
Kansas City, Mo., 116 West Lynwood Boulevard, office phone Westport 1-1630.
Home residence number and so forth.
Thanks.
RoyL. Williams,
Trustee of Local 5Jt8.
'i'his was the lirst indication that Mr. Ilobbins had, and it enclosed a
check of $5,000, that he was to do anything at all in this matter.
Tlie second letter was written by Bobbins immediately after he re-
ceived that letter on March 16. I should not say immediately, but a
couple of days later.
This will acknowledge receipt of your check on March 10, 1956. On March 12,
1956, Mr. Connelly's son came in pursuant to a telephone call and I gave him a
check for .$2,000 made payable to Gordon C. Peterson, Mr. Connelly's attorney.
This was in accordance with the original instructions which I received, and I
am holding the balance of .$3,000 pursuant to either your instructions, Mr. Hoffa's
instructions or Mr. Connelly's instructions —
and so forth. Signed by Mr. Eobbins.
]\Ir. Kennedy. That idea is repeated in there a number of different
times ?
Mr. Adlerman. It is repeated in a letter of March 20 that it would
be handled through the instructions of Vice President James Hoffa.
It is written by Roy Williams, president of Joint Council No. 56 of
Kaiisas City to Mr. Robbins.
Mr. Kennedy. You also have a number in connection with JSIr.
Harold Gibbons' participation ?
Mr. xVdlerman. Yes. I have one here dated June 6, 1956, signed by
Mr. Harold Gibbons, secretary-treasurer of the Central Conference of
Teamsters, addressed to Mr. Sol Robbins :
Enclosed find check in amount of $5,000 for professional services rendered
drawn on the account of the natiimal warehouse division of the International
Brotherhood of Teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. How was that signed ?
Mr. Adlerman. That was signed by Mr. H. J. Gibbons, secretary
treasurer. Central Conference of Teamsters. You will note that was
sent for professional services rendered. Mr. Robbins was a little dis-
turbed by that. He did not want to be shown as receiving any check
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5395
for professional services rendered when he was not rendering. He
wrote a letter, I think, the next day to James Hoffa. In this letter he
addressed to Mr. Ho Ha at Detroit he stated :
This will aokuowledge receipt of ,$r),000 from the Central Conference of
Teamsters and an additional $5,000 from the national warehouse division of
the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. The sum of .'(iKSOOO will be dis-
bursed according to your specific instructions as follows —
and then he relates who he paid it out to, which was Goff, Dranow, and
Gordon C. Peterson.
Mr. Kennedy. I think that pretty w^ell covers it.
The Chairman. The others may be made exhibits as instructed.
Mr. Kennedy. Is there anything else i
Mr. Adlerman. That covers the situation.
Mr. Kennedy. We have correspondence here in connection with the
trusteeship which I would also like to have made as exhibits for refer-
ence. I think Mr. Adlerman can testify to that.
The Chairman. Mr. Adlerman, I present you carbon copies of
letters dated October T, 1955 — two so dated — one from Einar Mohn,
Sidney L. Brennan, another from Dave Beck to Sidney L. Brennan,
and then a copy of a letter of October 31, 1955, from Sidney L. Bren-
nan to Gerald Connelly. Also a letter of October 10, 1955, from Dave
Beck to Harlan De Young. I ask you to examine these letters and see if
jou identify them, state the source of your acquisition of them and
then they may be made a part of the record. They will be made
exhibits 12-A, B, C, and so forth, in the order of their dates. Do you
identify those letters that you have procured from the files?
Mr. Adlerman. I do, sir. I secured these from a source — a confiden-
tial source — which I would be glad to reveal to the committee.
The Chairman. You can testify that they are authentic?
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
The Chairman. The significance of particularly one of them is that
after Williams was appointed trustee when they removed Brennan,
he immediately reinstated (^onnelly in charge of the union and so
states in his letter, and also writes in one of those letters to one of the
liquor stores where they have a contract, instructing them accordingly,
that C^onnelly is back in control. Is that correct ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is coi-rect.
The Chairman. The rest of the letters have similar significance.
(The documents referred to were marked Exhibits No. 12-A-D for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr, Kennedy. ]Mr. Chairman, we have one other witness I want to
call who will be brief, but we have some of the food bills from one of
the restaurants of Mr. Connelly in Minneapolis.
The Chairman. Mr. Morgan, I believe you said that when Mr. Con-
nelly left, when he was first put out of the union, he took the records
nnd left about $300 in the treasury and about $5,000 worth of bills.
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
The Chairman. I have here a bill fi'om Murray's, which I under-
stand is a restaurant, to local 548, dated September 1955, in the amount
of $707.65. Is that one of the bills that went to make up the $5,000 ?
Mr. MoRG A N . Yes, i t i s .
The Chairman. That bill may be made exhibit 13.
(The bill referred to was marked ''Exhibit No. 13'' for reference
and will be found in the appendix on p. 5732.)
r
5396 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
The CHAiRMAisr. Now I hand you some documents and ask you to
examine them and state what they are. Are those the tickets in sup-
port of that restaurant bill ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, they are.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibit 13-A.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 13-A" for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. So he left a restaurant bill for $707 when he
departed ?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It was after that that he was placed back in
charge again ?
Mr. Morgan. That is correct.
The Chairman. In other words, he is charging his restaurant bills
to the union.
Mr. Morgan. That is right.
The Chairman. That was pretty expensive eating, was it not?
Mr. Morgan. I would say it was.
The Chairman. Being paid by the dues collected from the members.
Mr. Morgan. Yes.
Senator JNIcNamara. Mr. Chairman, before the staff witness leaves
the witness chair, I would like to ask him a couple of questions.
Does the examination you made reflect the present status of the
$1 million loan ? Is it still all due or has some of it been paid ?
Mr. Adlerman. It is a very recent loan, comparatively speaking.
It was made on May 28 of this year. I believe some installment had
been paid on it. I assumed it had been paid.
Senator McNamara. Do you know anything about the terms of the
loan?
Mr. Adlerman. I have some documents but I would have to refresh
my recollection.
Senator McNamara. Do you remember the interest to be paid ?
Mr. Adlerman. I believe it is a fairly high rate of interest. I think
it is a 6-percent interest rate. I don't know. The next witness could
probably tell you about that better than I can.
Senator McNamara. All right.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Senator Mundt. Do you know, Mr. Morgan, that these bills from
Connelly are invariably for two people with the dinner check averag-
ing $16 or $17 a night? Do you know who the other person would be?
Mr. Morgan. His secretary.
Senator Mundt. These are pretty high priced dinners in Minne-
apolis, averaging $16 or $17 a night. It goes all the way through.
Some of them are as high as $25, including the cocktails.
Mr. Kennedy. That was in a 7-month period that the bills amount
to $700 for Connelly and his secretary. That is all.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Senator Mundt. Maybe this was perfectly proper. Did his con-
tract with the union agree to feed him ? Did he get salary plus board
and room ?
Mr. Morgan. What?
Senator Mundt. In Mr. Connelly's contract with the union and ar-
rangements with the union, did the membership vote that he was to
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES' IN THE LABOR FIELD 5397
get a salary plus board and room or was he simply foisting off on the
union his dinners with his secretary ?
Mr. Morgan. I don't think they ever voted on anything.
Senator Mundt. You don't think they did. You think he just
shoved it off on the workingmen in Minneapolis ?
Mr. Morgan. I am sorry. I can't hear.
Senator Mundt. Do you think he was foisting off on the working
men and women in Minneapolis these high-priced dinners ?
Mr, Morgan. Yes.
Senator Mundt. There was no vote by the union agreeing to feed
him out of their dues at a rate of $15 to $18 per night?
Mr. Morgan. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we had expected to have Mr. Dra-
now. We have a number of matters in addition to what has come
out already to ask Mr. Dranow. In view of the fact that he has stated
he is ill and in the hospital, we have asked the president of the Thomas
department store to come and testif3^ I talked to him briefly this
morning. I doubt if it will be too long. His name is Mr. Hudson.
The Chairman. Mr. Hudson, come around, please.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. The Chair will place in the record the telegram
which we have received regarding the condition of Mr. Dranow. It
appears now that he will be able to testify a little later, and we will
expect to have his testimony. This may be filed. It does not have
to go in the record, but I want it kept in the official files of the com-
mittee regarding this hearing.
Will you be sworn, please, sir ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before
this Senate Select Committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Hudson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN L. HUDSON
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name, your place of resi-
dence and your business or occupation.
Mr. Hudson. John L. Hudson, 2710 Ottawa, Minneapolis, Minn.
My occupation is president of the John W. Thomas Co., in Minne-
apolis.
The Chairman. Mr. Hudson, you are familiar with the rules of the
committee that you are entitled to have present counsel to advise you
regarding your legal rights while you testify. Do you waive counsel ?
Mr. Hudson. I do.
The Chairman. Thank you. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. You are president of the Thomas Department Store ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you held that position?
Mr. Hudson. Since the first part of 1954.
Mr. Kennedy. Your family were the chief owners of the Thomas
Department Store ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. This ownership was sold out to Mr. Dranow ?
Mr, Hudson. That is correct.
5398 IMPROPER ACTRITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. "While you liave been president, there Avas a $200,000
loan that Avas negotiated with the teamsters. Can you tell us any-
thing- about that loan?
Mr.HiDSox. Well
Mr. Ki.xxEDY. Did you conduct the negotiations?
Mr. Hudson. No; I'^did not.
Mr. Kennedy. AVho conducted the negotiations?
Mr. PIuDSON. i\lr. Dranow and our attorneys.
Mr. Kennedy. With wlioni were tlie negotiations conducted?
Mr. Hudson. I think it was the Michigan Teamsters Welfaie Fund.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know that ?
Mr. Hudson. Xo ; I am not sure.
Mr. Kennedy. You Avere president of tlie company. Didn't Mr.
Dranow keep you infoi-med as to what Avas going on?
Mr. Hudson. As a matter of fact, my duties and responsibilities in
the company were strictly the mercantile opei'ation of tlie com])any.
I was not brought into the fijiancial negotiations of the compan3^
Mr. Kennedy. That was all conducted by Mr. Dranow?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
JNfr. Kennedy. That was his responsibility ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kexni:dy. And he did not keep the rest of tlie ofliccrs or at
least as far as you are concerned as ])i'esident of the company informed
as to what he was doing (
Mr. Hudson. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You received in addition to the $200,000 loan another
$1 million loan in the last few months. Did you conduct those nego-
tiations ?
Mr. Hudson. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio conducted those negotiations ?
Mr. Hudson. Ah-. Dranow and the attorneys.
]Mr. Kennedy. With Avhom did they conduct the negotiations?
Mr, Hudson. It was with the central teamsters and I think the
southeast southwest group.
Mr. Kennedy. Again you do not know ?
Mr. Hudson. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Were these negotiations specifically conducted with
Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. Hudson. That I couldn't answer.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not know that.
Mr. Hudson. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if Mr. Dranow knows Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. Hudson. Well, 1 think I could testify to tlie fact that he does
know him, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You met JNIr. Hoffa yourself?
Mr. Hudson. I have on one occasion, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that ?
Mr. Hudson. It was approximately' a year ago wlien he visited the
store one evening prior to our $200,000 loan.
Mr. Kennedy. Who brought him around the store at that time ?
Mr. Hudson. Mr. Dranow brought him into the store.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that Mr. Connelly's son was working
in Thomas Department Store ?
Mr. Hudson. Not until it was all over.
IMPROPER ACTrV'ITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD -5399
Mr. Kenxedt. That was also Mr. DranoAv ?
Mr. Hudson. I don't know whether Mr. Dranow actually hired him.
I dont' know what the relationship was there.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you give the committee any explanation as to
why he came to work under the name of Kelly ?
Mr. Hudson. Xo ; except the fact that he was employed as an assist-
ant to our manairer in our St. Paul store under that assumed name.
Mr. Peterson needed some hel]) over there and he hired — whoever hired
him, I don't know the circumstances surrounding it — but he was hired
and worked for a period of a few months and then left.
]VIr. Kennedy. Do you know what part Mr. Jack Bushkin had in
the negotiations in either one of these loans'?
Mr. Hudson. I do not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if Mr. Bushkin ever worked for the
Thomas Department Store I
Mr. Hudson. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know anything about Mr. Buslikin ?
Mr. Hudson. No, sir.
Mr, Kennedy. Do you know he participated in these negotiations ?
Mr. Hudson. I do not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know lie participated in the negotiations the
Thomas Department Store had with the retail clerks I
Mr. Hudson. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I just want to point out that this was all done dur-
ing a period of time when you were president of Thomas Department
Store.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator jMundt. Do you know Mr. Kelly or Connelly ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes. I met the bo}' once or twice on my visits to the
St. Paul store.
Senator Mundt. Did he have previous mercantile experience as man-
ager of a store ?
Mr. Hudson. No ; he hadn't. As a matter of fact, it vras explained
to me that he was brought in on an apprenticeship basis to learn the
business.
Senator Mundt. He was brought in as an assistant manager on an
apprenticeship basis ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes ; that is correct.
Senator Mundt. Did you know he was operating under an assumed
name ?
Mr. Hudson. I did not.
Senator Mundt. Because his name was Kelly, you tliought he was
some Irishman by the name of Kelly.
]\Ir. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator ]Mundt. Can you give the committee any help as to why
your store should pay the hotel bill of Mr. Connelly down in Florida?
Mr. Hudson. I don't know why.
Senator jNIundt. As president of the company, did you know that
you were paying Mr. Connelh-'s hotel bill down in Florida ?
Mr. Hudson. No ; I did not.
Senator Mundt. Don't you have meetings of the board of directors ?
Doesn't the president look over the accounts of the concern? I can
understand why the immediate financial transactions might be turned
over to somebody else, but I would think you would have some overall
5400 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
knowledge of what use would be made of the store's funds, especially
if they are paying hotel bills for people convicted of dynamiting
down in Florida.
Mr. Hudson. Perhaps on this particular occasion it was explained
to me, that Mr. Dranow — Mr. Dranow explained to me that during
his travels around the country he was negotiating for finances for the
company. Mr. George Cohen was one of the potential loaners and
that he was with him down there.
Senator Mundt. In other words, Mr. Dranow never told you that
Mr. Cohen was an alias for Mr. Connelly ?
Mr. Hudson. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. As far as you knew, Mr. Cohen was the potential
financial associate of the store, and he obtained him for that pui'pose.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. To the best of your personal knowledge you did
not know you were paying Connelly when you were paying the bill
of Cohen?
Mr. Hudson. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. I want to go back to Mr. Bushkin once again. Do
you know anything of the relationship between Mr. Dranow and
Mr. Buslikin?
Mr. Hudson. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that Mr. Dranow had passed some
bad checks out in Las Vegas? Do you know anything about that?
Mr. Hudson. I don't know anything about it. I heard about it
somewhat at the time.
Mr. Ivennedy. Do you know that Mr. Bushkin made good on those
checks ?
Mr. Hudson. No, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. You cannot give us any explanation as to why Mr.
Bushkin, of Detroit, would make good on Mr. Dranow's bad checks
out in Las Vegas ?
Mr. Hudson. No, sir ; I could not tell you that.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Bushkin's relationship with Mr.
Hoif a or with the retail clerks ?
Mr. Hudson. No ; I don't.
Mr. I^nnedy. As I said, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Dranow could really
be a valuable witness to this committee.
The Chairman. Let me ask one thing. Wlien these loans were
negotiated, did you not as president of the company have to sign
some evidence of the debt, whatever was offered as security?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct. After the negotiations — actual ne-
gotiations — were completed, as an officer of the company, it required
my signature, and I did review the papers and the particulars at the
time with the attorneys when the final completion of the financial
deals was to be consummated.
The Chairman. Did you have a meeting of the board of directors
that authorized and directed Mr. Dranow to carry on negotiations?
In other words, to undertake to secure a loan for your company ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You had a meeting of the directors ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Authorizing him to do that before he undertook it.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5401
The Chairman. But during the course of the negotiations you had
no information as to whom he was negotiating with ?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
The Chairman. Or any of the terms that might be under con-
sideration ?
Mr. Hudson. That is right.
The Chairman. When they finally got it completed or consum-
mated, they had the papers prepared and brought to you for sig-
natures.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator McNamara. Do you know the terms of the $200,000 loan ?
How much interest was to be paid ? Who was it negotiated with ?
Mr. Hudson. As I recall it was with the Michigan Teamsters Wel-
fare Fmid.
Senator McNamara. Who represented them; do you know?
Mr. Hudson. I could not say right offhand. I don't recall. I
know it was a monthly sum of approximately $5,500 that was to be
paid back.
Senator McNamara. $5,500?
Mr. Hudson. Yes ; over a period of time.
Senator McNamara. You know this is about a year old and the
$5,500 has been paid on this $200,000 ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes ; that is correct. It was being paid.
Senator McNamara. What was the duration of that $200,000 loan ?
How long was it to run ? Was it established ?
Mr. Hudson. I think it was a 4-year arrangement.
Senator McNamara. The $1 million loan which is comparatively
new according to the previous testimony, you don't know the interest
rate on that, either ; or do you ?
Mr. Hudson. No ; not right offliand.
Senator McNamara. Do you know what the terms of payment on
that are ? How much a month ?
Mr. Hudson. It is an annual payment of approximately $96,000 a
year.
Senator McNamara. Ninety-six thousand dollars a year ?
Mr. Hudson. Somewhere in that neighborhood. Ninety-thousand-
some-odd.
Senator McNamara. That is a long-term loan.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator McNamara. What is the book value of the Thomas Co.?
Mr. Hudson. The book value is rather difficult to sav at the moment.
I would say about $2,800,000 ?
Senator McNamara. $2,800,000 ?
Mr. Hudson. That is the worth of the company, inventories and
the buildings and anything.
Senator McNamara. The company owns the building ?
Mr. Hudson. We own the building, yes ; but not the land.
Senator McNamara. The inventory is included in this figure that
you mentioned of $2 million plus ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes ; I would say that is approximately correct.
Senator McNamara. Are you still the president of the company ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes, I am.
5402 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator McNamara. Do these people who made the loans have
representation on your board of directors ?
Mr. Hudson. No, the}^ do not.
Senator McNamara. They are all represented by Mr. Dranow if
there is any representation. Is that your analysis of it (
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator McNamaRxV. Are you Mr. Dranow's employer? Do you
have any authority to hire or fire a man in that position as president
of the company ?
Mr. Hudson. Not at this point, because he is the sole owner of
the company at this time.
Senator McNamara. You are the president ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes; so I am the employee, you might say. He is
the employer.
Senator McNamara. Were you the party that Mr. Dranow negoti-
ated with when he obtained control of the company ? Did he have
to do that with you ? You were the principal owner ; were you not ?
Mr. Hudson. There were trust funds set up for various members
of the family, each of whom owned a certain amount of shares.
Senator JMcNamara. Then you operated for the family.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator JNIcNamaRxV. When he obtained control, we have testimony
that says he obtained control of the Thomas company for $13,714,
plus a payment of $25,000 a year to somebody by way of salary.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator McNa:mara. Did you approve these terms ?
Mr. Hudson. Prior to that sale, that was tlie sale price that was
agreed upon between ]\Ir. Yalomstein and Mr. Dranow. Prior to
that time we had sold our stock to Mr. Yalomstein. In other words,
we sold our interest in the company to him, ]Mr. Yalomstein. He in
turn sold it to Mr. Dranow.
Senator McNamara. Do you know he sold it to Mr. Dranow at this
$1?>,714 payment plus some extenuating agreement ?
Mr. Hudson. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Who is this first gentleman ? I did not get
his name.
Mr. Hudson. Mr. Yalomstein.
Senator McNamara. How did he obtain control ? By purchase ?
Mr. Hudson. He is the former owner of the company and donor
on the trust funds that were set up for various members of his family,
and also my family. He is the original owner of the store purchased
back in 1935.
Senator McNamara. At that point, control of the company passed
from you to him ; is that it ?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator McNamara. He represents the owners now, rather than
you, at this point ?
Mr. Hudson. At that point, yes.
Senator McNamara. Subsequently he transferred control of the
company to Mr. Dranow.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator McNamara. Thank you.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5403
Senator Mundt. Were you the operating president of the company
when Mr. Yalonistein had it, or did yon become president when Dranow
took it over ^
Mr. IIuDSoisr. Mr. Dranow came with the store approximately the
first part of 1953. At that time Allert was the president of the store
and had been for a good many years. Subsequently upon his retire-
ment I was elected president in the reorganization.
Senator Mtjndt. And you had been in the store as one of the officers
prior to that time.
Mr. HuDSOx. Yes, I had.
Senator Mundt. Were you manager or assistant president? You
were the logical successor to the presidency upon the retirement of
your predecessor.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. How long had you been active in the stoi'e in 1953 ?
Mr. Hudson. Since approximately 1939. Almost 18 years.
Senator Mundt. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedt. At the time the $200,000 loan was negotiated by Mr.
Dranow, the Thomas Department Store was quite close to bankruptcy,
was it not ?
Mr. Hudson. It was in difficult shape. There is no question about
that.
Mr. Kennedy. They were having a very difficult time?
Mr. Hudson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And it was on strike at that time by the retail clerks ?
Mr. Hudson. I have heard it referred to that it was on strike, but
actually it was not a strike. There was simply picketing going on.
Mr. Kennedy. By the retail clerks ?
Mr. Hudson. That is correct. We were never at any time on
strike.
Senator Mundt. How long did the picketing continue, Mr. Hudson?
Mr. Hudson. Some 3 years.
Senator Mundt. Beginning when and stopping when ?
Mr. Hudson. It began in 1953 and stopped last December.
Senator Mundt. l^T^^at happened to make it stop. Did you
unionize?
Mr. Hudson. Yes ; we unionized and a contract was signed.
Senator MuNm\ In other words picketing was an attempt to make
you unionize, and in 1956 you did unionize and then they stopped
picketing.
Mr. Hudson, That is right.
Senator Mundt. Prior to 1956 you had a nonunion shop.
Mr. Hudson. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have some of these checks that
were paid in connection with that legal fee of Connelly. Could we
have those made a part of the record ?
Senator Mundt. You don't need Mr. Hudson ?
Mr. Kennedy. No.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Adlerman, you have some documents there supporting the tes-
timony you gave regarding the payment of attorney fees ?
Mr. Adlerman. I have.
The Chairman. Identify them, and they may be placed in the
record.
5404 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Adtjerman. I have a series of checks from the Central States
Conference of Teamsters which verify the fact that the source of the
funds came from the Central Conference of Teamsters for the various
things I listed before. I don't want to go into detail.
The Chairman. They may all be marked "Exhibit Xo. 14," to get
them in the record and identify them.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit 14" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5733-5742.)
Mr. Adler:hax. I would like to state this : I was asked the question
before, who signed these checks. I have in mv hands seven checks
which total the larger part of the amounts I indicated before, signed
by Mr. James Hoffa.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa signed the checks for most of them ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And also Mr. Gibbons ?
Mr. Adlerman. I believe that the second signature was H. J,
Gibbons.
Mr. Kennedy. They were signed by Mr. Hoffa and i\Ir. Gibbons.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right. In addition to that, we found one
additional check since I took the stand. This was made out to Mr.
Jerry Connelly. This check is in the sum of $2,500 deposited in the
account of Nemerov, indicating there was an additiouc^l legal fee paid.
Mr. Kennedy. In addition to the one you mentioned.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr, Kennedy. So that woukl bring it up over $56,000.
Mr. Adlerman. That is right. I have two other checks.
Mr. Kennedy. What are those ?
Mr. Adlerman. Those are two checks drawn on the Central States
Drivers Council to ISIr. Solh' Robbins. each in the sum of $5,000.
Mr. Kennedy. Those are checks you mentioned before ?
Mr. Adlerman. That is right.
Mr. KJENNEDY. ^Mio are they signed by ?
Mr. Adlerman. They are signed by Mr. J. L. Hudson and a Mr.
Terry.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2 : 15,
(Present at the time of taking the recess: Senators McClellan,^
Mundt, and McNamara.)
(Thereupon at 12:30 p. m., a recess was taken until 2:15 p. m.,
the same day.)
atterngon session
The Chairman. Call the next witness. The committee will come
to order.
(Present at the convening of the session were Senators McClellan,
McNamara, and Mundt.)
Mr. Kennedy, Mr, Floyd Hook, please.
The Chairman. All right, sir, be sworn. You do solemnly swear
that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee
shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help
you God ?
Mr. Hook. I do.
I2^rPR0PER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5405
TESTIMONY OF FLOYD HOOK
The Chairman. State your name, and your place of residence and
your business or occupation.
Mr. Hook. My name is Floyd Hook, I live in Birmingham, Mich.,
and I am a shipping clerk.
The Chairman. A shipping clerk?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. By whom are you employed ?
Mr. Hook. Fred V. Ginch, Inc.
The Chairman. You have talked with members of the staff, have
you?
Mr. Hook. I have, sir.
The Chairman. You know generally the line of interrogation to
expect ?
Mr. Hook. I do, sir.
The Chairman. You are also advised that you have a right to have
counsel present when you testify, to advise you regarding your legal
rights ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You waive counsel ?
Mr. Hook. I waive counsel.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Mr. Chairman, we are now going into a third
matter. This morning we went into the situation that existed in
Minneapolis, and the activities of Mr. Hoffa in connection with that
local.
Now we are going to go into a local in Pontiac, Mich., and the re-
lationship of Mr. Hoffa with the officials of that local and what were
the results.
Now, Mr. Hook, you were a member of the teamsters union ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Kennedy. For how long?
Mr. Hook. I was a member for approximately 14 years.
Mr. Kennedy. From what time?
Mr. Hook. From 1939, 1 believe, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. From 1939 until what time ?
Mr. Hook. Until 1954.
Mr. Kennedy. You are no longer with the teamsters ?
Mr. Hook. 1 was expelled.
Mr. Kennedy. You were expelled by the teamsters ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, during the period of time that you were with
the teamsters, with local — what local number is that ?
Mr. Hook. Pontiac Local 614.
Mr. Kennedy. How many members are there or how many mem-
bers were there during that period of time ?
Mr. Hook. Approximately 2,000 at the time I was expelled.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat jurisdiction were they or what area did you
cover?
Mr. Hook. Oakland County.
Mr. Kennedy. You were drivers ?
Mr. Hook. Drivers, mostly drivers and there is building trades,
also, but mostly drivers.
5406 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IISP THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. During the period of time that you were with the
local, did they ever hold an election ?
Mr. Hook. There were two, if you want to call them elections. We
will say two elections.
Mr. Kennedy. Two elections ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. A^^iat years were they ?
Mr. Hook. ^Voll, one was in 1946 to the best of my recollection, and
one was 1949.
Mr. Kennedy. Around that time ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any difficulty in connection with that
election ?
Mr. Hook. Well, no, the only difficulty was, Mr. Kenndy, that there
was no election as far as the rank and file was concerned.
Mr. Kennedy. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Hook. There was no opposition to the officials already in office.
Mr. Kennedy. There was no opposition to the officials in office ?
Mr. Hook. There were members nominated, but were disqualified.
Mr. Kennedy. Why w^ere they disqualified ?
Mr. Hook. Well, as a member not in good standing according to
the interpretation of the present officials of our union, our teamster
union.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason were they not in good standing ?
Mr. Hook. Well, I think it states that you must be a member in
good standing, and that means that your dues must be paid on or be-
fore the first of the month. The dues in the checkoff system are taken
out of the paychecks from 1 to 2 weeks before the first of the month,
but it is withheld by the companies because the union will not issue
a steward's report before the first of the month, so the company
doesn't know what members to pay the dues on.
Mr. Kennedy. So the result is under the checkoff system that is
used, the dues do not arrive at the union until after the first of the
month.
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And only those who have their dues paid up by the
first of the month can vote, is that right ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So that everybody is ineligible to vote except the
incumbent officers who pay their own dues, is that right ?
Mr. Hook. Until lately. And now the union steward — automati-
cally their dues are paid by the local, so they, if they are still around
when election comes up, they are eligible for office.
Mr. Kennedy. That has been since you left the union ?
Mr. Hook. No ; that happened just t3ef ore I left the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Just before you left the local ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. But for some 12 or 13 years, or 10 or 12 years, the
system was that only the incumbent officers could vote in the election ;
is that right?
Mr. Hook. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, that was the first election in 1949, and was
there a second election?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES UST THE LABOR FIELD 5407
Mr. Hook. The election, the first one was before 1949. I believe
it was around 1946, I believe. I could be wrong on the year there,
but it was 4 or 5 years before.
Mr. Kennedy. Was the same arrangement followed ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How many individuals were free to vote in the
election ?
Mr. Hook. First they had to pay their money as they entered, when
they got ready to vote. Even though their money had been taken out
of their paycheck, they still had to pay another month to vote.
Mr. Kennedy. How manj' were ruled eligible to vote in the election ?
Mr. Hook. Nobody.
Mr. Kennedy. Nobody except the incumbent officers ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be just 5 or 7 people that would be
allowed to vote in the election ?
Mr. Hook. I believe there are seven altogether, more voted, but the
ones that voted had to vote for the people already in office.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, only the seven incumbent officers were eligible
to vote, is that right?
Senator McNamara. Eligible to hold office, I think.
Mr. Kennedy. I think it is also to vote.
Mr. Hook, At that time, yes, until they paid their dues.
Mr. Kennedy. Let us start over again. Until they paid their dues,
if they did not have their dues paid up on the first of the month.
Ml'. Hook. But when they got down to the union hall they went
ahead and paid dues again and then they voted.
Mr. Kennp^dy. They could pay them twice?
Mr. Hook. But they hadn't been a member for 2 years and you have
to be a member in good standing for 2 years to run for office.
Mr. Kennedy. How many were eligible ?
Let me start over again. The ones that were eligible to vote were the
seven incumbent officers.
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And anybody else that came down and wanted to
vote had to pay his dues again, a month in advance.
Mr. Hook. That is right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. I still don't understand that.
Mr. Hook. You don't understand?
Senator Mundt. Let me see if I have it straight.
You have two different groups of eligibles, one which is eligible to
vote and another eligible to hold office.
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Senator Mundt. The ones eligible to hold office were limited to
about 7, because they had to be in the union for 2 years but anybody
could vote who would come down and pay his dues a month in
advance.
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt, So that you have two groups of eligibles.
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Senator Mundt. We started out the colloquy by asking about how
many actually did vote. How many actually came in and voted and
paid their dues in advance?
5408 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Hook. At the 1 election we had. around 250 members voting.
Senator Mundt. Out of 2,000?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir. At the other election, I believe there was
around 56 voted, and the rest of them walked out and went back to
their jobs.
Senator Mundt. Why did they walk out ?
Mr. Hook. They had nobody to vote for, only the people that were
already in office.
Senator Mundt. There is no incentive to pay dues a month in
advance to vote for a slate that is already picked, and you didn't.
Mr. Hook. That is right, and you just had this one slate.
Senator Mundt. xlnd you could not nominate from the floor because
nobody else could be eligible for office ?
Mr. Hook. There were nominations, but they would disqualify
them.
Senator Mundt. On the basis that they had not been in good stand-
ing for 2 years ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Did j^ou not have some members of the union who
had been union members for 2 years ?
Mr, Hook. We had many members who had been there for years.
Senator Mundt, How w^ere they disqualified ?
Mr. Hook. Because, as I said before, their dues had come out of
their paycheck, which had been turned in to the union at a later date,
too late for them to be in good standing from month to month, as they
approached the election date.
The Chairman. Let me see if I understand it.
In other words, to be in good standing for a period of 2 years, that
was required before they were eligible to run for office.
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. If at any month during that past 2 years, their
dues had not been received by the union by the first of the month, then
they were not in good standing for that month.
Mt. Hook. That is right.
The Chairman. They were not continuously in good standing for
2 years, and therefore, they were ineligible.
Mr. Hook, That is right.
The Chairman. Is that the way it worked ?
Mr. Hook. That is correct.
Tlie CHAreMAN. The reason the dues were not in there on the first
of the month, although they had been withheld by the employer, was
because they would not name a steward for the company to pay the
dues to until after the first of the month ; is that correct ?
Mr. Hook. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Hook. We have what we call the steward's report. The local
union officials presents it to the company, the employer, and he goes
down this steward's report with all of the members' names on there,
and how much money they owe. That is what is called the steward's
report.
But the employer cannot pay that money in, and he can deduct it
from every employee, but he cannot pay it into the union until he re-
ceives this steward's report and the union officials of the teamsters do
not issue those reports until after the first of the month.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5409
The Chairman. That is wliat I understood.
Mr. Hook. The steward's report is a sheet of paper.
The Chairman. The money is witliheld in the middle of the month I
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is withheld from the wages ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
The Chairman. And salaries ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. JJiit the union doesn't send in the steward's report
until after the first of the month.
Mr. Hook. That is right.
The Chairman. And imtil that report comes in, the company can-
not pay over the money to the union.
Mr. Hook. That is right.
The Chairman. So, therefore, the rank and file are ineligible be-
cause their dues do not reach the union treasury by the first of the
month.
Mr. Hook. Now, the union officials, we were opposed to this setup,
the union officials told us, all you have got to do to be eligible is go
down to the union hall and lay out the cash of 1 month and the com-
pany will continue to take your dues out, and then you will be in good
standing.
We had men to do that and what happened i Before election time
would arrive, 1 month, somewliere in that time, the company would
not remove the dues from the man's paycheck because they claimed
his name was not on the steward's report for him to remove it.
The Chairman. They would take up the slack i
Mr. Hook. That is right.
The Chairman. By leaving his name oif the steward's report ?
Mr. Hook. Tliat is absolutely right.
Senator McNamara. You say that the rules were in the manner
you have described. How did ihe rules come into being ^ Was this
your local bylaws ?
Mr. Hook. I believe this was written into the constitution
Senator McNama.ra. Tlie constitution and bylaws of the local?
Mr. Hook. Of the intei'national.
Senator McN amara. The international ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Did you also have a local bylaws '?
Mr. Hook. We could never tind them. We asked for them time
and again and the local bylaws, and we could never get them surren-
dered to the rank and file.
Senator McNa:\iara. Was this local under trusteeship all of this
time ?
Mr. Hook. No, sir; it wasn't. It wasn't until 1953, I believe.
Senator Mc Namara. About the time vou left (
Mr. Hook. I left shortly after that.
Senator M(N'.vmara. You say that you were expelled and wliat
were the grounds for your expulsion ?
Mr. Hook. Well, when I lost my job at Motor Car Transport, after
being there, I was there before World War II, and I went back there
after World War II, and after I lost my job and I couldn't find a job,
80330— o7—pt. II 9
r
5410 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
before tliis happened when I was in the union activity my family
moved to Indiana.
My wife was quite a nervous wreck over some things that happened
in Pontiac, and she went back to her home in Indiana with the chil-
dren. I stayed in Michigan, and after I lost my job, I was there
for practically 3 or 4 months and I did not get a job. So I called the
present employer I am employed with now and he asked me where
I wanted to vroi-k and I told him I would just as soon work in Indiana
temporarily. He told me there was going to be another f actoiy built
in Detroit and so I mentioned the fact I would like to be transferred
back.
So while I am working in Indiana, Mr. Iloffa sent an attorney down
there to check on me, and clieck how long I had been there, and my
hours of Avork and in fact, he checked on me while I was working for
the employer in Indiana, even though I told the local union in Pontiac
that I was there temporarily.
And he came back up and I had some children in Michigan at the
time and I would come hack every 2 or o weeks and drive a dump truck
on weekends, and then I would go back down and woik in Indiana.
I was down there on a temporar}' basis, and I went to local 614 and
I tried to pa}' my dues, and they refused to accept them and they tried
to force me to take a withdrawal card.
Senator McNamara. Why do you assume you were expelled ? For
nonj)ayment of dues ?
Mr. Hook. Xo. They would not accept my dues. When I asked
the acting president why, he said, ''You will have to take it up with
Mr. Hofl'a. I have been told not to take any moi'e dues from you."
The acting president is Leon Harrison.
Senator McNamara. Was this during the period while you were
unemployed?
Mr. Hook. Xo, sir. This was during the period wliile I was em-
ployed in Indiana.
Senator McXatmara. In Indiana ?
Mr. Hook, In Indiana.
Senator Mc^Xamara. This was outside of the jiirisdicti(m of the
Pontiac local?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Senator McXamara. This period tliat you were unemployed, this 3
or 4 months you mentioned, did you pay your dues ?
Mr. Hook. My dues was paid every month. They was paid for
months after I went to Indiana.
Senator M( Xajiara. But then they refused to take your dues ?
Mr. Hook. I came back up here and they refused to take them.
Senator McXajiara. On the basis of their refusal to take them, you
became an expelled member ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Senator McXaMxVra. You were not expelled for any cause except
that they would not receive your money? Is that your testimony?
]Mr. Hook. You have to pay your dues or you cannot be a member.
Senator McXamara. If you do not pay your dues for a certain
period of time you become an expelled member ?
Mr. Hook. I^nless you have a withdrawal card.
Senator McXamara. They offered you a withdrawal card and you
would not take it ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5411
Mr. Hook. I didn't take it because I was going to drive a truck part
time. . • 1 />i , 1, X
Senator McNamara. But you had no connection with 614, or what-
ever you call it, anyway ?
Mr. Hook. That is right. .
Senator McNamara. Mr. Hook, were you an officer ot the union {
Mr. Hook. No, sir.
Senator McNamara. Were you a steward ?
Mr. Hook. I was elected a steward by the boys of our company.
Senator McNamara. By who ?
Mr. Hook. Of the members of our company, the drivers of the com-
pany I worked for.
Senator McNamara. You had to make out these reports that you
talk about?
Mr. Hook. I did not make out these reports. These reports were
made out at the local union hall.
Senator McNamara. Not by the steward ?
Mr. Hook. Not by the steward.
Senator McNamara. You referred to some steward's report.
Mr. Hook. They called it a steward's report.
Senator McNamara. It is made out by somebody else than the
steward ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Senator McNamara. And this is a general practice ?
]\rr. Hook. Yes, sir. It was at that time.
Senator McNamara. The steward did not make out the steward's
report. It was made out at the union headquarters 't
Mr, Hook. That is right, sir.
Senator McNamara. Then they took it from the records, apparently,
or something. They did not have the job contact because the steward
had?
Mr. Hook. I beg your pardon ?
Senator McNamara. The steward had the job contact. He knew
who was working from day to day.
Mr. Hook. The steward was" not brought into the picture at all.
Senator McNamara. The report was made by others ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Senator McNamara. All right.
Mr. Kp^nnedy. Those members who were not familiar with the con-
stitution and came down, on the 15th of the month to vote, they would
be ineligible under this checkoff system, would they not?
Mr. Hook. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Unless they were familiar with this procedure in
the constiution that you have to have your dues paid up on the 1st
of the month and had paid their dues in advance, then they would
have been ineligible to vote in the election in the middle of the month ?
Mr. Hook. The members felt, because of their money being taken
out of their paycheck, that they were a member in good standing at
all times, until they got to the union hall.
Mr. Kennedy. So, actually, it is a very, very small percentage that
M'ould know enough to pay their dues twice, isn't that right? Or
pay them early so that they could vote in the election? It would be
a ver}' small percentage who would do that ?
r
5412 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Hook. That is right.
IMr. Kexnedy. Who were the officers that were running the union
during this period of time?
]Mr. Hook. Daniel Keating, he was the president. I believe at that
time there was Lloyd Wellnig, was the secretary-treasurer, at that
time.
Mr. IvExxEDY. Was Mr. Linteau an officer?
Mr. Hook. That was later.
Mr. Kennedy. When did he become an officer?
]\Ir. Hook. The year I do not
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately?
Mr. Hook. Around 1949 or 1950.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Keating had been an officer from 1042 or 1943?
Mr. Hook. Around 1940, 1 believe, is when Mr. Keating was brought
out there and given to us.
Mr. Kennedy. He was brought out there and given to you?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Who gave him to you at that time?
Mr. Hook. Mr. James E. Hotifa.
INIr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa took over the union and put Mr. Keat-
ing in ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Keating remained in that position; is that
right?
Mr. Hook. That is right, sir.
]Sfr. Kennedy. He remained in that position until what happened
to him?
Mr. Hook. Until he was indicted.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was indicted for extortion ?
Mr. Hook. I believe it was extortion. Conspiracy to extort.
Mr. Kennedy. Conspiracy to extort ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, He and Mr. Linteau ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. They were subsequently convicted ?
Mr. Hook. Yes. They plead guilty to the charges.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Marosso was involved in that, also ?
Mr. Hook. Samuel Marosso ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was his position ?
Mr. Hook. I think he was tlie business agent at one time for G14,
but he was out of Detroit most of the time.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Licoletti was also involved in that extortion?
Mr. Hook. Out of Detroit ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Fitzsimmons also involved in tliat ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Everybody but Mr. Fitzsinmions was found guilty.
They dismissed the indictment I
Mr. Hook. I believe they dismissed the charges against Mr.
Fitzsinnnons.
Mr. Kennedy. That was after Mr. Marosso, Mr. Keating, and Mr.
Linteau plead guilty ?
Mr. Hook. And I believe Mr. Buffalino was involved in there, too?
Mr. Kennedy. He was involved in a different matter i
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5413
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When did your difficulties with the local officials
beo:in ?
Mr. Hook. Our first difficulties
Mr. Kennedy. You are the spokesman for a group of members ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. When did your difficulties begin with the local?
Mr. Hook. Our first difficulties began right after World War II
in 1946. A group of the rank and file who had been lessors, that is
we owned our own equipment during the war, and we went to the
union hall because we found out when we went back after the war to
haul we were not supposed to own our own equipment. The union
had made a ruling that if you do not own your own equipment, if
you didn't OAvn your own equipment before the war, you could not
own it afterward. So a lot of the rank and file that had hold of
the goods during the war were eliminated from being able to go ahead
and work their truck even if the employer desired it — to haul auto-
mol)iles and freight.
]Mr. Kennedy. So you had some difficulty
JNIr. Hook. That was our first difficulty, that I can recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Hid the difficulty then continue until 1954?
Mr. Hook. It started to continue right then. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there attempts to get rid of you, get you out of
the local ?
Mr. Hook. Well, they got rid of me. The attempts came a little
later than that. It came after I had been union steward for approxi-
mately 2 years. The first year I was union steward our contract had
been violated time and again, and I went down to the local union hall
with the elected committee and we tried to get some grievances settled
and Mr. Keating would rule against us. We would take it to the joint
council in Detroit and we won our grievances. Our man w^as put back
to work and paid if he had been fired.
I believe there was one case we lost in a year and a half. But
after 1952, February of 1952, until I was fired in 1954, in January, we
did not win nothing. No grievances at all.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the reason for that ?
Mr. Hook. We just don't know, the rank and file. All is what we
believe. Things that went into that contract that were supposed to
benefit the rank and file but it just wasn't doing it because the contract
was not carried out like it should have been.
Mr. Kennedy. The contract was not being enforced ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Keating and INIr. Linteau and his colleagues
were not enforcing the contract ?
Mr. Hook. And Mr. Hoffa, also.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there opposition among the members of the
union to these officials ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you attempt to find out from the officials of the
use of union funds and an examination of the books?
Mr. Hook. We did not know, not at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go down and see him ?
Mr. Hook. We thought we would eliminate all of that if we could
just have an election.
r
5414 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. But you were not able to have an election ?
Mr. Hook. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go down and talk to Mr. Hoffa about having
an election ?
Mr. Hook. Yes ; we did.
Mr. Kennedy. What brought about that ?
Mr. Hook. I and 10 men. I called Mr. Hoffa long distance from
Mendon, Mich., and asked for an appointment. I got the appoint-
ment. I took 10 rank and file members with me from different
companies,
Mr. Kennedy, Why did you go down at that time? What infor-
mation did you receive ?
Mr, Hook. One of the union stewards from another company — a
union steward from another company — had been opposing Mr, Keat-
ing at the same time I was, had came to me with some evidence that we
believed should be given to the courts and we believed that was the
reason that our contract was not being enforced,
Mr. Kennedy, What sort of evidence did he have ?
Mr. Hook, That was tlie evidence, part of it, that came out against
Mr. Keating.
Mr. Kennedy. What sort of evidence ? What had he learned ?
Mr. PIooK. Some payoffs from his employer is what the evidence
was at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. This was what you had suspected from some of your
employers ; is that right ?
Mr. Hook. Yes. I don't believe my employer, they were guilty of
the payoffs. They were guilty of coercion between them and the
union, certain privileges the company was allowed to do or the union
allowed them to do. The owner of our company, I believe he carried
the first insurance that went into the contract, the health and welfare
insurance. That is Ralph C. Wilson Agency, He owned the com-
pany I drove for. He was an insurance agency for Continental In-
surance. There was some things that would happen there that we
could not get grievances settled. I don't believe there was no payoff,
not from our employer at Motorcar, but there was some business trans-
actions that came about and through the good friendship of our garage
superintendent and Mr, Linteau, we just could not get anything done
at our local hall in favor of the rank and file according to contract,
Mr, Kennedy, You could not get anything done for the membership
and some of your fellow stewards were also having difficulty with their
employers ; is that right ?
Mr, Hook, Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, One of your steward friends came to you and said
that he thought he had some information. He learned that there had
been some payments from his employer to Mr. Keating ; is that right ?
Mr. Hook, Yes, sir,
Mr. Kennedy. So you thought that the best way to handle it was
to go down to see Mr. Hoffa personally ?
Mr, Hook, We did, sir,
Mr. Kennedy, You went down to see Mr, Hoffa ?
Mr, Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. About 10 of you went down ?
Mr. Hook. Ten of us went down.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5415
Mr. Kennedy. What tianspiied at that nieetiiig- ■
Mr. Hook. We did not teil Mr. Ilotl'a of the evidence we had. We
jnst told him we wanted an election in local 61-i. He asked us wdiy.
We told him w^e believed our president was crooked and we wanted
an election to remove him. He said, "He isn't crooked. There will be
no election, and if you fight me, you will never get an election." That
was the very words that James E. Hotfa told to me and 10 other mem-
bei's. We haven't had an election up to this date.
Mr. Kennedy. So what did you tell him ?
Mr. Hook. I told him we was going to fight, and we have ever since.
Mr. Kennedy. You went back up to Pontiac ?
Mr. PIooK. I was still woiking. I M'ent back to Pontiac. W^e
started having meetings. W^e would rent our own halls. We had
two to three hundred members pi-eseni at ditferent times. The union
officials came out. They were not invifed. Mr. Hoffa came from
Detroit to Pontiac with 70 or 80 men. We finally let Mr. Hoffa in to
attend our meeting, but no one else. Mr. Keating was president, though
he had been indicied. He was still present with a goon squad, as we
called them, tJiat came from Detroit to take over our meeting. We
allowed Mr. Hoffa to enter the meeting. W^e reserved a chair for
liim, and we let him sit and listen to our meeting. At the end of the
meeting jMr. Hoffa wanted to speak. Maybe we were bad, but we
figured we had listened to liiin at tlie union hall for so many years we
just didn't let him talk. W^e told him he would have to wait until he
got back down to the union hall.
Mr. Kennedy. So you made him listen to you that time.
Mr. PIooK. He listened to our bo^^s.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time Mr. Keating was in-
dicted. He had been indicted for this extortion.
Mr. Hook. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Linteau had also ?
Mr. Hook. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. But they were still running the union ?
Mr. Hook. They were suspended as officials and they turned right
ai'ound and Mr. Hoffa put them back in as business agents.
Mr. Kennedy. He put them back in as business agents ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. They were suspended from their jobs and Mr. Hoffa
took them and put them back into the union ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Who suspended them ?
Mr. Hook. I believe
Mr. Kennedy. The international ?
Mr. Hook. I believe Mr. Hoffa asked the international to suspend
them. I believe that is the way it was.
Mr. Kennedy. The international took the action ?
Mr. Hook. The international took the action.
Senator Mundt. At that stage did they place you under a trustee-
ship?
Mr. Hook. I forget who the gentlemen was *'hat came out from the
international and we had a meeting and Mr. Hoffa was made our
trustee.
Senator Mundt. Then in his capacity as trustee he took the two
suspended officers and made them business agents.
5416 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Hook. Business agents ; right, sir.
Senator Mundt. So you Avound up -with the same people in control
that 3^ou had before.
Mr. Hook. That is riglit, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did jou make any progress with your comphiints
against the local ?
Mr. Hook. Piogress witli ayIio, Mr. Kenned}- ?
Mr. Kennedy'. With the international, Avith Jinnny Hoffa? Did
you make any progress at all ?
Mr. Hook. We had a]:)pi"oximately eleven to tAvelve hundred men
that signed petitions. We sent them to Mr. Beck, as president of the
teamsters, asking for the trusteeship to be lifted, and that we could
hold an election. He acknowledged receipt of the petitions, and that
is the last we heard from him.
Mr. Kennedy'. That is 1,200 people that signed a petition out of how
many ?
Mr. Hook. Eleven to twelve hundred people signed out of 2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. You sent that petition in requesting an election, and
still the election was not held 'I
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy, When did you send that ])etition in I
Mr. Hook. It was shortly after Afr. Keating was made business
agent for us. Shortly after he was indicted.
Mr. Kennedy'. 1953 i
Mr. Hook. Yes : it was in 1953.
Mr. Kenni:dy'. Did you have any personal difficulties ^
Mr. Hook. I believe it Avas the latter part of 1953. Did I have any
personal difficulties (
]\Ir. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Hook. Onh^ that imion officials, whenever I was out on a trip,
the}' would park maybe a couple of their cars by the side of my home
at Lake Orion, Midi., where I was living at the time. They were
business agents. The boys at the Motorcar Garage informed me of it.
My wife had kept it fi'om me. They never did this when I w^as in
from a trip; always when I was out of town. The}' would follow us
when I was in town, 2 and 3 cars at a time, all over the city. That
happened when I was with 4 to 8 members of the rank and file ; 2 and
3 carloads of union officials, which Mr. Hoffa had sent to Pontiac, they
would follow us all over the city of Pontiac. In fact, I slipped out of
one of the cars and called the chief of police and told him what was
going on, and I had been subpenaed in front of Judge Coolihan at
the time. I told him what was going on. He sent a squad car out.
He didn't work it just right. They turned off just as the squad car
had gotten with us — they were a half block behind us — they turned
off at the next corner. They stopped that practice.
INIr. Kennedy. You say when you were out of toAvn there were some
cars parked next to your house ?
Mr. Hook. Yes: that is right. There is a grocery store next to my
home, and they would park in front of the grocery store up to 2 o'clock
in the morning every night.
Mr. Kennedy. Did that have any effect on your wife ?
Mr. Hook. It did on my wife. She came close to a mental break-
down and that is whv she went back to Indiana.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5417
Mr. Kenxkdy. That is why she Avent back to Indiana ?
Mr. HodK. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you oet any further %Yith Mr. Holfa in your
attempts ^
Mr. Hook. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. They didn't have an election^
Mr. Hook. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then did you lose your job ?
Mr. Hook. I lost my job January 25. Would you care to know how
that came about ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. PIooK. I had driven for years at Motorcar Transport. I be-
lieve I had one minor charge of an accident in 12 or 13 years. I had
citations from the insurance company 5 and 6 years at a time. All
of a sudden the company started putting governors on the trucks, a
company piece of equipment. They put the governors on the motors.
The governors were governed— well, they claimed it was not for speed.
It was because they claimed the rank and file was racing the motors
of the trucks at low speed. So they put the goveinors on. Out of
125 to 175 trucks I was about the sixth truck to acquire a governor.
I made two trips with the governor on.
Mr. Kennedy. The governor you say was not for the purpose of
controlling your speed ?
Mr. Hook. No. The speed was set up. Mr. Hoffa took the stand
with the company when w^e opposed this governor deal — Mr. Holfa
told the company that they must set the speed high enough so that
when we pulled out on the highway our trucks would not cut out in
front of traffic. It would endanger the lives of the drivers. So what
happened ? The governors were not bothering any of the drivers from
speed. They could go down the road at 40 or 45 miles an hour, and
everything was all right. I pulled two trips. I parked my truck
in the company yard. You go in and make out your report on your
truck, your service report. You go in the office and pick your load
and you go home. You have so many hours off. We knew what the
schedule was. Then you come back and you load up and take off. I
parked my truck approximately 2 hours when I was called to the
phone by 1 of the drivers and informed that the company had pulled
my truck into the garage and upon lifting the hood found my gover-
nor had been tampered with. I was informed by Mr. Patterson of
Motorcar Transport. He would not tell me I was hred. He just said
I wasn't to go out on a run.
After 2 days I demanded that he either fire me or put me to work.
I informed the local union. They said they was trying to get in
touch with Mr. Hoffa. On the 27th of January, Mr. Hoft'a sent a
telegram saying that he would handle the matter personally, to meet
him the next morning. He did not come out to Pontiac and he carried
out the contract as far as trying to put me back to work as far as the
contract was carried out.
Mr. Kennedy. What occurred?
Mr. Hook. They had a vote on it in Pontiac. It was tied. It
went to the joint council. It was tied again. Then there was an
arbitrator selected. The arbitrator, Mr. Hoffa, I was there, I seen
it happen, you can take it for what it is worth, Mr. Hoffa proceeded
5418 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
to take the arbitrator into liis private ofiice on TrmnbuU Avenue,
tliey talk for approximately an hour, they come out and we went into
the meeting. When the meeting was over, I was informed that ac-
cording to the contract they would let me know what happened.
According to the contract I believe they had 2 weeks^I believe it is
2 weeks — before I was notified that the arbitrator had ruled in favor
of the company.
Mr. Kennedy. You were out of your job, then ?
Mr. Hook. I was out of my job.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear of anybody else losing their job over
the governor being disconnected ?
Mr. Hook. The same night my truck was pulled into the garage,
the boy that called me, the member that called me and told me about
it, three governors was intentionally clipped and nobody
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason was that ?
Mr. Hook. Because the boj-s felt that I was framed because of
my stand against the teamster present union officials. They didn't
want to see me fired. Somebody thought if they clipped a lot of
governors they could not fire a bunch of us. They clipped governors
and I did not even knoAv this at the time. Nothing was mentioned
at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Ko action was taken against anybody but you ?
Mr. PIooK. No action was taken against anybody but myself.
Mr. Kennedy. AYhat about the other leaders of this grou]:> that was
in opposition to Mr. Keating and Mr. Linteau who had been indicted
for extortion ? What happened to them ?
Mr. Hook. The first man was on my committee from the company.
He made a run into Chicago. He hit an underpass on a detour. The
same night two more drivers on the same detour had hit the same
underpass. Mr. Robert Godfrey was hred. He was the member
that had chaired the meeting and refused to let Mr. Hoffa talk previ-
ous to this. He was fired.
Mr. Kennedy. What about the others ?
Mr. Hook. There was another man — that was all for Motorcar.
Mr. Kennedy. I mean the ones that hit the underpass ?
Mr. Hook. They were not fired.
Mr. Kennedy. He was the only one that was fired ?
Mr. Hook. He was the only one that w^as fired that hit the under-
pass.
Mr. Kennedy. He was one of the leaders in your group ?
Mr. Hook. That is right. He chaired the meeting the day we let
Mr. Hoffa come into the meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. What of the others that were opposed to Mr. Keat-
ing and Linteau ?
Mr, Hook. They were fired also. One was Charles Grimm.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he fired ?
Mr. Hook. He was fired. He was fired — and I would lilce to tell
you this quick — on a log book violation. I believe you understand
what a log book is. You can drive so many hours, you must take so
many hours off. The company after they fired Mr. Godfj'cy and
myself, and we still had not struck or had not caused the strike — we
did not let the boys strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Did your members wa]it to strike ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5419
Mr. Hook. Yes. Some got mad at me because I would not let tliem
strike.
Mr. Kennedy. They wanted to strike because you got fired.
Mr. Hook. That is right. I would not allow it. I said this is what
happened in Flint, and Mr. Hotl'a put his fleet of trucks to work. I
said, "Boys, don't strike. Let us see if we can do it legal."
Mr. Kennedy. "What do you mean, his fleet of trucks to work ?
Mr. Hook. There was what Mr. Hofi'a called a wildcat strike while
he was supposedly negotiating a contract with the automobile carriers,
and the boys in Flint were supposed to have called this strike without
Mr. Hoffa's knowledge. They were all at that time fired. They all
went back to w^ork, but the leaders. Those leaders — and they worked
at that time for Commercial Carriers, Inc. — they were not allowed to
return to work.
Mr. Kennedy. That was at the same time that the officials of
Connnercial Carriers set up a company for Mr. HofFa.
]\Ir. HooK. I believe they called it Test Fleet Corp.
Mr. Kennedy. They set up this company which was to carry
automobiles?
Mr. HooK. Yes, sir, and these drivers owned their own equipment in
Commercial Carriers at the time, and they never lost any time. Mr.
Hoffa's truck, or we will say his wife's trucks, went to Flint to haul
automobiles, immediately.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were afraid that if they struck, if your
members of the union up there struck against the leadership in
Pontiac, the same thing would happen ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Mr. Kf^NNEDY. They would all be fired ?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
The Chairman. I thought you stated a few moments ago that the
rank and file members were denied the right to own their own trucks.
Mr, Hook. Tliat was years back, Senator McClellan. That was in
1946. The}^ changed that ruling after they had opposition.
The Chairman. "What I was trying to ascertain was whether that
rule prevailed at the time that Mr. Iloffa organized the Test Fleet
Corp.
Mr. Hook. No ; for some reason they changed that ruling, and even
put it into the contract.
The Chairman. So that you can own the trucks now ?
Mr. Hook. Yes; we can own them, and outsiders can own, also.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you were telling us about what happened to
one of the opposition group in connection with the logbook situation.
Mr. Hook. Charles Grimm. I believe there were quite a few fired
after that for logbook violations. There has been a time, we were
allowed to pull trips without even putting them in our logbook.
Then they started using a logbook. Our trips were set up so many
hours driving, and so many hours off duty. But we were allowed for
years to come into our terminal and if we had a lot of automobiles
that had to be removed we were allowed to take those cars out. In
fact, there have been drivers that said, "I am out of hours," and they
have thrown another logbook out the window to use, but I guess some-
one got on them for that, and then they started cracking down. But
they would only fire the men they wanted to, on violation of a log-
book. Today they still operate as they always have.
5420 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kexnedy. Did you liave any other meetings with Mr. Hoffa,
other than the one in his office, the one when he came up to attend
your rank and file meeting in Pontiac? Did you see Mr. Hoffa on
any other occasion ?
Mr. Hook. Only the hist time I talked with Mr. Hoff'a was during
that time, when he came out tliere to negotiate to put me back to
work.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the only time ?
Mr. Hook. 1 believe that was the last time.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoff'a mentioned this situation in Pontiac, when
he testified before, and he said that his policies out there are sup-
ported by the vast majority of the members of the local, and that they
have had meetings out there and large numbers have come, and they
have liked the wav the situation is. Can you tell us anything about
that^
Mr. Hook. I sure can. One night we sat in front of the union hall
on Telegraph Road, and Mr. Ploff'a was trying to get a vote of con-
fidence from the local. There was approximately 50 membei-s that
went into that local union hall. But the next day it came out in the
paper that around 200 or 250 voted to give Mr. Hoffa a vote of con-
fidence.
r am here to say right now that the rank and file will never give
Mr. Hoff'a a vote of confidence, not when it comes from the majority.
He can pick a few handpicked union stewards, people that they have
created privileges for at different companies, and they will come down
and give him a vote of confidence, that is right. But you take a gen-
eral meeting, which they have not had, an overall general meeting
w^ith everybody invited and which we have asked for even before I
was fired, and they will not give you that meeting, because they fear
that kind of a meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you think that is the general setup? Are you
reflecting the feeling of your local people ?
^Ir. Hook. I can say it from my local, but I have also talked to
rank and file in Indianapolis, and I have talked to them, and they
have come from Cincinnati right up to Pontiac, where they had
trouble down there with Hoffa in Cincinnati, and they have come up
there also. And they thought we were winning out and they wanted
to know what we could do to help them.
Mr. Kennedy. But you say your membership is opposed rather
than supports him ?
Mr. Hook. The majority of the membership. If they Avere only
given a chance to clean house, they would clean the bad element out
of the teamsters, but they cannot be given a chance under the present
constitution.
Mr. IvENN~EDY. Do you know anything about the voting for dele-
gates in the Pontiac local?
Mr. Hook. Yes : I do. In the last convention, I believe it was held
in San Francisco, or Los Angeles, I believe, there was a union meet-
ing of local 614, Pontiac, and I was present. One of our rank and
file members asked Mr. Keating, "Wlien do we have the election
for the delegates to the convention?'' And Mr. Keating arose to the
floor, and he said, "lYhat are you trying to do, start trouble?"
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 5421
I "would rather not give the name of that man unless I have to,
but he was right by my side when he asked Mr. Keating that. He
said, '*We have already had the election'' and we asked him "We?"
And he said the bulletins were posted all over town, but there were
none there.
The Chairmax. The}- do not comply with their own constitu-
tion?
]Mr. Hook. They do not comply with their own constitution, only
when it will benefit at their own interpretation of it, to help them-
selves out and to keep themselves in office. That is the truth of it,
and I am speaking for plenty of rank and file members. It is not
just m^' feelings.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hotfa has also stated in addition to support-
ing Mr. Keating and Mr. Linteau during this early period of time on
the extortion, he has also stated that the treasury of your Pontiac
local is in very good shape, and it has got thousands and thousands
of dollars.
Mr. Hook. It should be, Mr. Kennedy. At $5 a month, with a
couple of thousand or even 1,500. we will take the lowest figure, going
into the local treasury, it should be well supplied. But what the
I'ank and file from Pontiac does not understand was when Mr. Hoffa
took over as trustee, he said our local treasury was broke.
Mr. Kennedy. He said it had $300 in it.
Mr. Hook. But Mr. Hoffa's man. Daniel J. Keating, had been in
there for 13 years, and the dues had been risen from $2 a month to
$5 a month, and why should it be broke? If the trusteeship can
take over in such a short period of time and get so much money in
the treasury, why in 131/2 years should it be broke with Mr. Linteau
and Mr. Keating, and the rank and file would like to know that an-
swer.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever had an opportunity to examine the
books and records?
Mr. Hook. Since the trusteeship, I believe they post a financial
statement.
Mr. Kennedy. But, prior to that time?
Mr. Hook. No, sir; and we have asked to see it and been turned
down.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with
this matter?
Mr. Hook. Yes: I do. I don't know whether this is the place to
say it, but I believe it is.
Tlie Chairman. I^et us try it. Go ahead.
Mr. Hook. I believe the majority of the rank and file members are
not violent people, but I believe the majority of the rank and file
members would vote to help put an}' bill througli Congress if given
the o})portunity to control the dues. If our dues are controlled, some
of these people cannot get so rich so quick.
If our dues keep going up, they are going to get rich that much
quicker. I know that we would like to have some labor legislation, not
to kill the unions, and I believe in organized labor, and the people that
^ent me here they believe in it, but only when we find a union official, if
he has been convicted of being a crook, we should have a law that says
we can vote to remove him.
5422 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You -would like to have elections, too, would you
not?
Mr. Hook. That would do it. If we had the election, we could re-
move them. They wouldn't ever be in all this trouble if they had given
us some elections a few years ago. Not even Mr. James Hotfa, they
wouldn't have been in this trouble.
The Chairman. You think you would have gotten rid of them be-
fore now ?
Mr. Hook. Absolutely.
Senator McNamara. You say that you represent some people, and
they sent you here. Wlio are you talking about ?
Mr. Hook. I am talking about members of the rank and file of local
614, Pontiac, Mich., that have been opposing the methods of Daniel
J. Keating and James R. Hoffa, and the way they have run our local
union.
Senator McNamara. You are here as their representative?
Mr. Hook, I am here on behalf of the people that have had guts
enough to stand up and opjjose them.
Senator McNamara. They selected you to come down here and
testify?
Mr. Hook. That is right.
Senator McNamara. I wanted the record to show that.
The Chairman. Is there anything further? Is there anything fur-
ther you have in mind, since you are representing some group, if we
have not asked you all of the questions? If you have anything else,
you may state it.
Mr. Hook. I think that I have covered about all of it.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You just never have been able to get back into the
teamsters ; is that right ?
Mr. Hook. That is right. I have never been able to get back in.
But I don't want in until we have a chance to clean it up,
Mr. Kennedy. You wouldn't go back in under the present circum-
stances ?
Mr. Hook. Not the way it is today. But a good union, yes, or the
right to help clean it up, yes, gladly.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Who is the next witness ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Daniel Keating.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Keating. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DANIEL J. KEATING, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, BENEDICT P. FITZGERALD, JR.
The Chairman. Mr. Keating, state your name, and your place of
residence, and your business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Keating. Daniel J. Keating, born in County Caffin, Ireland,
living at Beachwood, Iron County, Post Office Box 64 ; no occupation
at the present time.
The Chairman. Wliat is your past occupation ?
Mr. Keating. President and business agent of 614.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5423
The Chairman. All riglit. You have counsel to represent you ?
Mr. Keating. Yes, sir ; I do.
The Chairman. Counsel, will you identify yourself for the record,
please, sir ?
]Mr. Fitzgerald. My name is Benedict F. Fitzgerald, Jr., attorney
at law, member of the bar of the District of Columbia and the Com-
monwealth of Massachusetts, with offices at suite 1152, National Press
Building, Washington, D. C.
The Chairman. Thank you veiy much.
Mr. Kennedy. You were head of the local in Pontiac for some 10
or 12 years ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. If I may interrupt, as counsel, I would lil-:e to enter
an objection at this time. I would like to object for the protection of
my client. I want to make a general objection, a short one, to the
interrogation of my client by this committee, by only two members of
this committee, the gentleman from Arkansas and another gentleman.
The Chairman. The gentleman from Michigan.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I do not note the presence of any Eepublican mem-
bers, and I think that the spirit of due process, particularly the 5th
and 14th amendments, ought to give us a better shake than to just
have two members here. I am mindful of your section 3 of your local
rules, which state that a quorum of tw^o is sufficient, but I think that
is unconstitutional and n.ot in a true spirit.
The Chairman. Your protest is entered on the ground that 2 do not
constitute a quorum, and it is unconstitutional, a]\d the rule is uncon-
stitutional which provides for 2 as a quorum for Mie purpose of taking
testimony. The protest is entered and the protest is overruled.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I want to make a protest for tlie protection of my
client, with, of course, continued respect to tlie gentleman from Ar-
kansas and the chairman of the conmiittee, and I also want to object
to the forceful summoning of my client and his being brought before
this committee and forcing him to testify before television, radio,
microphones, and movie cameras, flashing flaslibulbs, and other pro-
cedures on the general ground tliat tliey are violative of the Constitu-
tion of the United States and particularly of the fifth and eighth
amendments to the Constitution.
The Chairman. Under the rule, if there is any objection to the
flashbulbs taking the pictures while the witness is testifying — just a
moment, please — the Chair, upon request will have the flashbulb pic-
ture takers to desist. Insofar as lights are concerned, I don't know
that it is unconstitutional for things to be done in the light of day or
in the light of light. That part of the request will be denied.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I want to, also, make a general objection, again
witli the utter respect to the gentleman from Arkansas, but I want to
make a motion at this time to disqualify the gentleman from Arkan-
sas on the grounds of bias and prejudice, and I want to assert the
chairman of a violation of due process.
This, again, is pertinent at this point, with particular reference to
the lith amendment. I feel that this is not an impartial tribunal,
and the gentleman from Arkansas ond the counsel have disciualified
themselves by the formation of preconceived conclusion, threats, and
statements to the ])ress :i.nd to tlie i)'a')lic relative to the aim and pur-
pose of this committee.
r
5424 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IK THE LABOR FIELD
I feel that, in protecting- my client, I ought to put that in the
record.
The Chairman. The Chair has heard the motion of counsel, and the
Chair overrules the motion of counsel. The Chair nuiy have some
opinions and some views, but whatever they are will have to 'be re-
solved in recommendations of this committee under the orders and
directions of the United States Senate, after conferences and collabo-
ration with my colleagues on the connnittee. For the present and for
this hearing, tlie Chair stands qualified. We will proceed.
Mr. Frrz(;i:RALD. And with one fui'ther and last objection, if the
Chair please. I want to make a general objection to the calling of this
particular client of mine, one of several who are being called, on tlie
ground of pertinency and remoteness of subject, and the depth of de-
tail which has been planned and has been announced to tlie press in
advance. I feel that tliere is no basis of any legislative action in
calling this client, because he isn't associated with the teamsters at the
present time and has not been for the last 2 years. Thank you.
That is all I have to say about general objection.
The Chairman'. Thank you, sir. You have your lieadliries, and
now we will proceed.
Mr. IvENNEDY, Mr. Keating, regarding Mr, Fitzgerald's statement
before this committee that you have not been connected with the
teamsters for the last 2 years, isn't it true that you and your family
have received compensation from the teamsters during the period of
the past 2 years (
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Xow, Mr. Fitzgerald made that statement before this
committee. Do j'Oii want to back him up ?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel and on the ground that any answer might tend to incriminate
me.
Mr. Kennedy. A truthfid answer or any answer ?
Mr. Keating. An} answer.
The CnAiR:MAN. Let us have order. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you been on the payroll of the teamsters since
you were convicted of extortion, Mr. Keating?
Mr. Keating. I refuse to answer on the same grounds as stated
before.
Mr. Kennedy. Were your legal fees during the trial, during the
period of time, were they paid for out of teamsters funds?
Mr. Keatin(}. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Kennedy. Xow, you were indicted and convicted for extortion,
and were your legal fees paid out of teamsters funds, Mr. Keating?
(The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Keating. The same answer.
The Chairman. You will have to repeat the answer. "The same
answer" does not mean anything.
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel and on the grounds that aiu' answer might tend to incriminate
me, and cause me to waive my rights as announced by counsel.
Mr, Kennedy. Mr. Keating, according to the information that we
have, you were a very close associate of Mr. PIotTa during the 1940-s
and 1950's and in fact you handled the financing for the building of
his home. Could vou tell the connnittee about that ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 5425
Mr. Kkating. I respectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel, under the ground that any answer might tend to incriminate
me.
Mv. Kennedy. Xow, the sum of $12,000 as I understand it went
tlirough your liands for the building of his home. Could you tell the
conunittee, that was all handled in the form of cash, could you tell
the conunittee Avhere you got that money ?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer on the ground as stated
before.
Mr. Kennedy. Xow, when the trusteeship Avas put into the local in
ir)5?> after you had been president some 10 or 12 years, when the
trusteeship took over, according to Mr. Hoffa, there was only $300
left of union funds. Could you tell the committee what you did with
all the rest of the money ?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer on the ground as
stated before.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee when you last talked
to Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Keating. I refuse to answer on the grounds as stated before.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Hoffa ?
The Chairman. I do not care about the ground stated before. Each
question must be answered.
Mr. Keatix(;. I res))ectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel, and on the grounds that any answer might tend to incriminate
me and cause me to Avaive my rights as announced by counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mrs. Keating does not work for the local
union; does she?
Mr. Keating. I refuse respectfully to answer upon the advice of
counsel on the grouiuls that any answer might tend to incriminate me
and cause me to waive my rights as announced by counsel.
The Chairman. Mr. Keating, may I suggest to you, I am sure you
realize that Ave have this information that we can prove by other wit-
nesses that A-ou have been draAving money from the union, and your
Avife has been draAving money from the union during this period of
time Avhile you Avere in the penitentiary. Do you AA'ant to sit there and
keep making that ansAver? Do you want us to prove it by other
Avitnesses ?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to ansAver upon the advice of
counsel on the grounds that an}' ansAver might tend to incriminate
me, and cause me to AvaiA^e my rights as announced by counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. According to the testimony before the Hoft'man
conunittee, there Avere certain books and records of local 614 that
Avere destroyed just prior to the time that Mr. Hoffman called cer-
tain witnesses. Could you tell the committee Avhether you destroyed
those I'ecords?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to ansAver upon the advice of
counsel on the grounds that any ansAver might tend to incriminate me,
and cause me to AAaive my rights as announced by counsel.
IVIr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that although Mr. Hoffa testitied be-
fore the Hoffman committee that those records had been destroyed,
that they Avere in fact in existence during that period of time ?
89330 — 57 — pt. 14 10
r
5426 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to auswer on the advice of
counsel, and on the grounds that any answer might tend to incriminate
me and cause me to waive my rights as announced by counsel.
The Chairman. Take that book down. This happens to be serious
business here. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Weren't you in fact instructed to destroy the rec-
ords, Mr. Keating?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel and on the grounds that my answer might tend to incrimi-
nate me, and cause me to waive my rights as announced by counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we are not progressing very far
with this witness, as far as learning any new information, and we
have some information regarding some of these matters that w^e could
put into evidence at this time.
The Chairman. Let me ask Mr. Keating a question or two.
Mr. Keating, you were in charge of that union, that local 614 out of
Pontiac, Mich., for quite a number of years, some 13 or 14 years, is
that correct ?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel and on the groimds that my answer might tend to incrimi-
nate me, and cause me to waive my rights as announced by counsel.
The Chairman. Wliat is there about associating with a legitimate
union that would tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer upon tlve advice of
counsel and on the grounds that any ansv/er might tend to incrimi-
nate me, and cause me to waive my rights as announced by counsel.
The Chairman. You do not mean the fact that you may have held
office in that union would tend to incriminate you? The mere fact
that you did that? But what you are saying is rather that if you
told the truth about how you operated the union, that those facts and
the truth might tend to incriminate you; is that correct?
Mr. Keating. 1 respectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel and on the gi'ounds that any answer might tend to incriminate
me, and cause me to waive my rights as announced by counsel.
The Chairman. Do you feel any obligation, any duty, any sense of
responsibility to the men who work for their families and who paid
their dues to support you while you pretended to serve them as thei'-
officer and as their leader? Do you feel any sense of obligation what-
soever to give an accounting to them of your stewardship ?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel and on the grounds that any answer might tend to incriminate
me and cause me to waive my rights as announced by counsel.
The Chairman. I am sure you will agree with me on this, that
under such circumstances there is a cleanup job to be done in that
union, is there not ?
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer u})on the advice of
counsel and on the groimds that any answer might tend to incrimi-
nate me and cause me to waive my rights as amiounced by counsel.
The Chairman. Could you make any suggestions to us for legisla-
tion that might do a little housecleaning I
Mr. Keating. I respectfully refuse to answer upon the advice of
counsel on the grounds that any answer might tend to incriminate me
aiid cause me to waive mv ria-lits as a]nu)U!iccd bv counsel.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5427
The Chairman. Mr. Kenned}^, I suggest that you put on the wit-
nesses with other testimony and we will retain Mr. Keating here and
let him hear it and give him an opportunity to refute it if it is untrue.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Linteau could perhaps
throw some light on it before we put the staff investigator on. So I
would like to call Mr. Linteau.
The Chairman. All right. Mr. Keating, you may step aside tem-
porarily and hold yourself in readiness to return to the stand.
Mr. linteau, come around, sir. You do solemnly svrear that the
evidence you shall give before this Senate Select Committee sliall be
the truth,' the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Linteau. I do.
TESTIMONY OE LOUIS CLASK LINTEAU
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name, your place of resi-
dence, and your business or occupation.
Mr. Linteau. Louis Clark
Mr. Fitzgerald. Pardon me again. With all respect to the chair-
man, I would like to renew my objections that I had renewed before
as counsel for Mr. Linteau.
The Chairman. Just one moment. Each objection made by coun-
sel on behalf of the preceding witness, all motions that he made on
behalf of the preceding witness, let the record show, are renewed on
behalf of Mr. Linteau, and the same rulings by the Chair. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. What is your address, Mr. Linteau ?
Mr. Linteau. My full name is Louis Clark Linteau, 614 East Tenny-
son Street, Pontiac, Mich.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were with the teamsters during what period
of time ?
Mr. LiNi'EAU. This is from memory. I have no records to go by.
Mr. Kennedy. You have no records at all ?
Mr. Linteau. No, I have no records; 1945 until 1954, I believe,
October 11.
Mr. Kennedy. October of 1954 ?
Mr. Linteau. I believe it is October.
Mr. Kennedy. And at that time you went to jail, is that right ?
Mr. Linteau. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. For this extortion ?
Mr. Linteau. No.
Mr. Kennedy. For what ?
Mr. Linteau. I pleaded to a lesser charge.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the lesser charge?
Mr. Linteau. Keceiving gratuities.
Mr. Kennedy. Receiving gratuities ?
Mr. Linteau. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You went to jail for how long ?
Mr. Linteau. Four and a half months.
Mr. Kennedy. What position did you hold in the local at that time ?
Mr. Linteau. At that time I was secretary-treasurer, teamsters
local G14.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you have representing you in that trial ?
Mr. Linteau. Who did I liave representing me?
5428 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Ml'. LiNTEAU. There were several lawyers. I believe I had Mr.
James Haggerty, Mr. Daiier, that iy all I can recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Who paid tlie fees for those attorneys ?
Mr. Linteau. Who paid the fees ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Linteau. I don't know. I didn't \)n.y them.
Mr. Kennedy. \6u did not ?
Mr. Linteau. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Who got the attoi-nej^s for you ?
Mr. Linteau. Who got the attorneys for us? I believe it was
arranged by the joint council.
Mr. Kennedy. By the joint council ?
Mr. Linteau. I believe, 43, of which 614 is a member.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is the president of the joint council ?
Mr. Linteau. Mr. James R. Hotla.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you liave conversations with Mr. Hoffa about
your representation in tliis trial (
Mr. LiNTKcVU. I could have. I could have.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you?
Mr. Linteau. I don't know for sure. I said I could have.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have discussions with him? Don't you
remember ?
Mr. Linteau. With liim and the attorneys combined ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. About the defense?
Mr. Linteau. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he tell you at that time that he would provide
the attorneys for you or was that just undei'stood ?
Mr. Linteau. He never made the statement to that effect.
Mr. Kennedy. It was just understood ?
Mr. Linteau. It was my understanding.
Mr. Kennedy. That was for your fellow, Mr. Keating, and ]Mr.
Licoletti and Mr. Marosa ?
Mr. Linteau. Mr. Kennedy, I can't speak for them what the\
thought.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know Avhat arrangements were made?
Mr. Linteau. I assumed.
Mr. Kennedy. The same arrangements were made?
Mr. Linteau. For me.
Mr. Kennedy. What were the arrangements that Avere made for
your salary while you were in prison ?
Mr. IjInteau. 1 was taken off* the payroll. I believe I was sen-
tenced on October 11. As I say, this is from memory. The dates
could be wrong. I believe around October 1st or the 8th I was taken
off tlie payroll.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have received no compensation from the
teamsters since tliat time ?
Mr. Linteau. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did any of your family ?
Mr. Linteau. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Who i-eceived the compensation ?
Mr. Linteau. My wife.
Mr. Kennedy, lYliat salary were you receiving up until October
1954?
niPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5429
Mr. LiNTEAU. $700 a month.
Mr. Kexnedy. How much did your wife receive ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. $700 a mouth.
Mr. Kennedy. Starting October 1, 1954 ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. To the exact date I don't know. Sometime in Oc-
tober.
Mr. Kennedy. So from the time you were sentenced your name
came off the payroll aiid your wife's name came on ?
JNIr. LiNTEAU. Not on the payroll. She never was on the payroll.
Mr. Kennedy. Did she perform any services for the teamsters?
Mr. LiNTEiVU. Not that I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. She just received compensation ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Union dues of $700 a month.
Mr. LiNTE^vu. It didn't come from 614.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio did it come from ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I imagine the joint council.
Mr. Kennedy. What conversations did you have with anyone in
connection with that ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Regarding what ?
Mr. Kennedy. Regarding your wife receiving this compensation?
Mr. LiNTEAU. None whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you know she was going to receive the
compensation ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I didn't know it until she got the check.
Mr. Kennedy. She just received the check in the mail ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You never laiew it was coming?
Mr. LiNTEAU. No.
]Mr. Kennedy. You never discussed it with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. He never mentioned it to you ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Was your wife surprised when slie received the
$700?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Yes, I imagine. I was in jail at the time. Coming
in her name. I wasn't there.
Mr. IvENNEDY. How loug did that continue ?
]Mr. LiNTEAU. Either May or June of this vear.
Mr. Kennedy. Of 1957?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. So from October of 1954 to June of 1957 your wife
has received $700 a month from the union.
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you been doing any work for the union?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not in the last — I did for about the first 6 months
after I got out, but not since then.
Mr. Kennedy. What were you doing then ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I was special organizer in the Port Huron area,
surveying new places, and stuff like that.
Mr. Kennedy. Who appointed you to that position ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Who appointed me ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
r
5430 IMPROPER ACTrV'ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. LiNTEAU. IMr. Hoffa put me to work. I don't Iniow if lie
appointed me or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you receiving any money for that ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. No. The check still came in my wife's name.
Mr. Kennedt. Just the $700 ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. After you left the Port Huron area, what did you
do then 'I
Mr. LiNTEAU. Nothing.
Mr. Kennedy. Your wife continued to receive the $700 a month?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever talk that over with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not tliat I can recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Not that you can recall. Did you talk it over or
did you discuss it with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Mr. Kennedy, I have no records. I am trying to
answer your questions.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't need any records to answer that.
Mr. Linit:au. I don't recall ever talking to Mr. Hoffa about my
check.
Mr. Kennedy. All right.
Mr. LiNTEAU. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you ever remember discussing witli Mr. Hoffa
about your wife receiving the $700 a month ? You need no records for
that. Records would not help you.
Mr. LiNTEAU. To the best of my knowledge, I don't recall ever
talking to Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Just a moment. I object. This is getting argu-
mentative. I object to further pursuing that point.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever discuss witli Mr. Hoffa any matter
over the period of the last year and a half? Have you talked to
Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Frequently.
Mr. Kennedy. What ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Quite often ; frequently.
Mr. Kennedy. You say you can't remember whether you ever
discussed your wife receiving the $700 a month.
Mr. LiNTEAU. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever discuss it with any teamster official ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I could have.
Mr. Kennedy. With whom ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. When I was taken off the payroll. I could have.
Mr. Kennedy. T^Hien was that?
Mr. LiNTEAU. In June or May, as I stated.
Mr. Kennedy. W\\o did you discuss it with ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I believe it was Bobby Holmes, if I remember
correctly.
Mr. Kennedy, '^^^lat was Mr. Holmes* positions?
Mr. LiNTEAU. He is secretary-treasurer of local 337.
Mr. Kennedy. You went to him and discussed it?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I met him.
Mr. Kennedy. What conversation did you have?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I don't recall.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5431
Mr. Kf.nnkdy. That was only 2 months. You can recall that.
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not very well, Mr. Kennedy. I cannot say exactly
what happened 2 months ago.
Mr. Kennedy. I am not asking you to say exactly. I am asking
3^ou to tell me what conversation you had.
Ml-. LiNTEAU. I told Mr. Holmes I was taken off the payroll.
Mr. Kennedy. What did Mr. Holmes say?
Mr. Ltnteait. Pie said — he acted surprised and I believe he asked
me what I was going to do, and I said attempt to find a job. It was
a short conversation. He was walking by when I stopped him.
Mr. Kennedy. He was surprised you were taken off ?
Mr. Linteatj. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How long were you going to continue on the payroll
without doing anything?
Mr. LiNTEAu. I don't know, Mr. Kennedy. I did not issue the
checks.
Mr. Kennedy. But he acted surprised that you had been taken off
after a year and a half?
Mr. LiNTEAu. He may not have have been, but to me it appeared
that he acted surprised.
Mr. Ivennedy. You were on the payroll for 2^ years ?
Mr. LiNiTSAU. I worked for him for 14 years, too.
Mr. Kennedy. Some 32 months your wife received your salary ?
Mr, LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And for approximately 6 months you did some work
and approximately 41^ months of that time you were in jail?
Mr. LiNTEAU. No ; not 41/2 of the 6 months.
Mr. Kennedy. Four-and-a-half months you were in jail?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Some 6 months you did some work for the teamsters.
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Because you were appointed to a position by Mr.
James Hoffa.
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. For the rest of the period of time you did no work
for the teamsters but your wife received $700 a month of union
members' dues.
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Holmes was surprised in July or June of
this year that you had been taken off ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That was my feeling. I felt he acted surprised, yes.
How he felt, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You say during this whole period of time, this 32
months, you never discussed that with any union official except Mr.
Holmes, when you told him you were taken off ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I could have. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember anybody you discussed this
with?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't recall?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I said I can't remember .
5432 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. You said "I don't recall."
Mr. LiNTEAU. I don't recall discussing it with anybody else.
Mr. Kennedy. You never discussed it even though you saw Mr.
Hotf a frequently. You never discussed it with him ?
(No response.)
Mr. Kennedy. Did you do any work at Mr. Hoft'a's home during
this period of time ^
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Linteau. At his home ?
Mr, Kennedy. Mr. Fitzgerald, as a matter of fact, he can answer
the question. Did you do any work on his property ^
Mr. Linteau. Yes, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. AVlien were you working on his property ?
Mr. Linteau. I did lots of work on his cottage if that is what you
are referring to.
Mr. Kennedy. Where was that?
Mr. Linteau. Lake Orion.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get paid for that?
Mr. Linteau. Absolutely not.
Mr. Kennedy. You received no compensation for that at all?
Mr, Linteau. Mr. Kennedy, I volunteered to do the work.
Mr. Kennedy. How long were you up there working?
Mr. Linteau. A day at a time.
Mr. Kennedy. How long were you up there working ?
Mr, Linteau. At the end of the day I would go home. You mean
how many days?
]Mr. Kennedy. You have been working up there for 4 or 5 or 6 or
8 months?
Mr. Linteau. No, I didn't work there at all from the time I got out
of the jail, if that is what you are referring to. Break it down, what
you are referring to.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you work there ?
Mr. Linteau. This was prior to — I would say maybe 1948, maybe
1949, 1950, 1951.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the home he was building in Lake Orion.
Mr. Linteau. He didn't build it. He remodeled it.
Mr. Kennedy. You were Avorking out there ?
Mr. Linteau, That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How much time did you spend out there?
Mr, Linteau. As I said, I would go out on a Saturday and maybe
work all day Saturday. Maybe I would go out on Sunday and work
all day. Maybe some other time I would go up for an hour or two and
help him with the pump,
Mr, Kennedy, Did you work 4 or 5 days in a row sometimes?
Mr. Linteau. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you think it is possible that you might have done
that ?
Mr. Linteau. It is possible.
Mr. Kennedy. You just can't recall ?
Mr. Linteau. I didn't say I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you said '"I don't recall."
Mr. Linteau, To my knowledge I worked as a rule Saturday or
Sunday, and if he had trouble with the pump, I would calf the
plumber and go out there.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5433
Mr. Kexnedy. Did you ^YOl•k 4 or 5 days in a row sometimes?
Mr. LixTEAU. No, not that I can recall, at no time.
Mr. Kennedy. You worked up at Lake 13 Fishing Club?
Mr. LiNi^AU. Where ?
Mr. Kennedy. Lake 13.
Mr. Linteau. Where is that ?
Mr. Kennedy. At Iron River.
Mr. Linteau. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. You never have done any work up there?
Mr. Linteau. Never. Don't even know where it is at.
Mr. Kennedy. You have never done any work for Mr, Hoffa — any
personal work, or for a company in which he is interested — since you
got out of jail?
Mr. Linteau. Yes, I did some work for Mr. Hoffa since I have
been out.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do ?
Mr. Linteau. One day, I think. It wasn't even a day. It was about
3 hours 1 morning.
Mr, Fitzgerald, What year is this we are talking about, Mr.
Counsel ?
Mr, Linteau, Wliat year are you talking about ?
Mr, Kennedy, When did you work ? Since you got out of jail ?
Mr, Linteau, I said once since I got out of jail. When did I get
out of jail?
Mr, Fitzgerald, I don't know, I wasn't there.
Mr, Linteau. In 1953.
Mr. Kennedy. 1955.
(At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. The chairman will interrupt to announce that the
Eepublican member of the committee has returned.
Mr. Kennedy. You got out on February 24, 1955 ?
Mr. Linteau. It could have been somewhere in the neighborhood
of 1956. I helped to unload a load of cement. That is transit-mix.
Mr, Kennedy, Just 1 day ?
Mr, Linteau, Not even a da3\
Mr, Kennedy, That is all ( Tliat is all the work you have aone
for him ?
Mr. Linteau. For Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes,
Mr, Linteau, Since I have been out?
Mr, Kennedy, Yes,
Mr, Linteau. To my knowledge,
Mr, Kennedy, You would know ?
Mr, Linteau, That is right, I don't know of any other time.
Mr. Kennedy. Yon would recall if you had done any other work?
Mr. Linteau. Yes ; I would recall.
Mr. Kennedy, Did you do any other work ?
Mr, Linteau, Not that I recall, I don't remember doing any other
work other than that,
Mr, Kennedy, Do you think it is possible to do any other work?
Mr, Linteau, And not remember it ? No,
Mr, Fitzgerald, How many years is it that we are talking about?
5434 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IK THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Fitzgerald, I suggest you listen to the question
and follow. We have established the time February 24, 1955, to the
present time. If you would listen to it, you would know.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I am listening to it, but I don't make much out
of it.
The Chairman. It is not a question of how nmch you make out
of it.
Let us proceed.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Do you remember doing any other work for Mr.
Hoffa?
Mr. LiNTEAu. You mean from the time I got out of jail, or do you
want to go back ?
Mr. Kennedy. February 24, 1955.
Mr. Linteau. February 24, 1955?
Mr. Kennedy. Since that time. Since you got out of jail.
Mr. Linteau. No, I don't recall any other work, other than that
one time.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know how the work on his home at Lake
Orion was financed during the period 1948 through 1952 ?
Mr. Linteau. I am familiar with some of it, JNIr. Kennedy. Not
all of it. I can't tell you what the entire financial structure of re-
modeling the cottage is.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you handle any of the finances yourself ?
Mr. Linteau. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. You paid some of the bills ?
Mr. Linteau. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Bills were paid in cash ?
Mr. Linteau. I did pay with cash.
]VIr. Kennedy. Where did you receive the money ?
Mr. Linteau. From Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. He gave you the cash ?
Mr. Linteau. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you would, in turn, pay the builder or what-
ever it was ?
Mr. Linteau. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you been out there to check lately to find out
how the bills were paid ?
Mr. Linteau. I have been out to Hoffa's several times.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go to the builder and the people that did
the work and ask them if there were any records in existence?
Mr. Linteau. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You haven't talked to any of them out there ?
Mr. Linteau. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you talked to anybody about trying to deter-
mine whether there are any records in existence to show how that
financing was done ?
Mr. Linteau. Any who?
Mr. Kennedy. Have you talked to anybody wlio did any of the
work, a builder, or anybody else who did any of the work?
Mr. Linteau. Nobody.
Mr. Kennedy. You have not ?
Mr. Linteau. No.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5435
Mr. Kennedy. But you received all the money that you spent on
Mr. Hoffa's home all from Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right. Or Mrs. Hoffa. Whoever was home
at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. And you received it in cash ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you paid the bill in cash ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How much bills do you think that you paid ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That would be hard to estimate because it was all
individual times. For example, if a truckload or two of transit-
mix would come out, I would be out to help unload, the man would
give me the bill, and if Mrs. Hoft'a or Jimmy was at home they would
give me the money and I would pay it. If they were not at home, I
would keep the bill until such time as I saw Jimmy, and he would
give me the money and I would pay it.
Mr. Kennedy. How much do you think that amounted to, ap-
proximately ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. That I paid ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. LiNTEAU. That would be hard to answer, Mr. Kennedy, be-
cause it was different times. As I say, it was small jobs like cement,
maybe, blocks or sand or something like that.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you handle all the financing ?
Mr. LiNi'EAu. No ; as I stated previously, when we first started this
line of questioning, I said the total finances of the cottage I didn't
know about. All I knew about is what I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Keating do some of that ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Did he do what ?
Mr. Kennedy. Pay some of the bills ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I believe he did.
Mr. Kennedy. That was handled the same way, by cash ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Well, I can't say how Mr. Keating paid the bills, but
I know that Mr. Hoffa paid Mr. Keating for a bunch of bills at one
time that I know of when I was president. I think it was carpenter's
wages and maybe lumber. I don't know. 1 didn't look at the bill.
Mr. Kennedy. You two would be liandling that for him at his
home?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not necessarily us two.
Mr. Kennedy. Was anybody else doing it ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I mean we would be sej^arate and distinct. I think
Dan got the carpenter and I ordered the cement and the blocks and
maybe the sand and stuff like that. In other words, we were separate
from each other inasmuch as I did not hire the carpenter or order the
material for the carpenter work. I recall sending a tile man out there
and I believe Mr. Hoffa paid him direct. As I stated, Avhat I did I
know was paid for, because Mr. Hoffa gave me the money and I in turn
got a receipt from the company or the driver.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you supervising tlie laying of the cement and
doing that kind of work ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. I would not call it supervising, because I am not a
cement layer, Mr. Kennedy. I was present.
Mr. Kennedy. During the laying of the cement ?
r
5436 IMPROPER ACTRITIES II\^ THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. LiNTEAu. That is right, and I helped, maybe like wheeling a
wheelbarrow. 1 dumped it into the wheelbarrow. 1 would not call
that supervising.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Keating out there doing that, too i
Mr. LiNTEAu. Not that I recall. He could have been out there when
they were doing the carpenter work and stufl". But I don't recall
Dan being there when I was there.
Mr. Kennedy. Most of the cement people that lay the cement in
that area work Saturdays and Sundays. Is that wlien they do their
work ?
Mr. LiNTEAtT. Not necessarily.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought that is the days you were out there.
Mr. Linteau. That is the days I was out there as a rule. We laid
the cement ourselves.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you were laying the cement.
Mr. Linteau. If you call dumping a wlieelbarrow laying cement,
then I laid cement. But as far as troweling cement or liuisliing it oil.
I didn't do that, because I am not capable of doing it.
Mr. Kennedy. You were paying some of the i>eople that were
doing it ?
Mr. Linteau. No.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you said you were the one that was paying.
Mr. Linteau. The truckdriver, Mr. Kennedy, that brought the
cement, he is supposed to be paid for tiie cement. I called and
ordered it.
Mr. Kennedy. He would bring it always on Saturday and Sunday?
]SIr. Linteau. Not on Sunday. The cement would be delivered on
Saturday.
Mr. Kennedy. Always the cement on Saturday ?
Mr. Linteau. Saturday as a rule. I can't recall any other day.
The only other day I can recall getting some cement there is putting
in an outside fireplace.
Mr. Kennedy. From what company ?
Mr. Linteau. Boyce Bros.
Mr. Kennedy. But they always delivered the cement on Saturday ?
Mr. Linteau. Not always. That is when we ordered it.
Mr. Kennedy. You ordered the cement on Saturdays or it was
delivered on Saturdays.
Mr. Linteau. We usually ordered it early Saturday morning and
tried to get it delivered out there. Sometimes we vrould order it Fri-
day afternoon.
Mr. Kennedy. What would happen from Monday through Friday ?
Mr. Linteau. What do you mean, Monday through Friday ?
Mr. Kennedy. Out there. Was there any work being done Monday
through Friday ?
Mr. Linteau. It could have been. I don't recall being out there.
Mr. Ivennedy. You said Mr. Keating handled the cai-penters; is
that right ?
Mr. Linteau. I said Mr. Keating and I didn't work in conjunction
on the job at the same time. For example, I explained what I did.
Mr. Keating, I think, had the carpentering over there and do some
remodeling work and took care of the carpenters' bills and wages and
in turn turned them over to Mr. Hoffa who paid for them. That is
what I said.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5437
Mr. Kenxedy. That was all handled by cash, too ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. No. Just one time I was present when Mr. Keating
irave Mr. Hoft'a an envelope of bills. It could have been material,
Tt could have been lumber, it could have been carpenters' wages, a mis-
cellaneous group of bills that accumulated, and Mr. Hott'a paid him
tlie money.
Mr. IvEATiNG. What was vour position with tlie local at that time,
local 614?
Mr. LiNTEAU. What year are we talking about ?
Mr. Kennedy. 1948-52, when you were doing this work.
Mr. LiNTEAU. Recording secretary. Wait a minute. Break it off.
You are pinning it down to 1948.
Mr. Ivennedy. Let me put it this way. When you were doing this
work out there.
Mr. LiNTEAU. The majority of the work I was recording secretary.
Mr. Kennedy. What was Mr. Keating ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. President.
Mr. Kennedy. When this work was taking place, he M'as president
of the local ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. President.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know any of the bills that were sent into
the local of Mr. Hoffa's which were paid by that local I
Mr. LiNTEAU. Do I know any of the bills ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. LiNTEAU. It is possible they were sent in.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they paid out of local funds?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Specifically I couldn't say. It could have been. It
IS possible.
(Senator McNamara left the room.)
Mr. Kennedy. The local funds were used to pay the bills for his
home?
Mr. LiNTEAU. You mean the materials and stuff. What bills are
you referring to ?
Mr. Kennedy. The materials that were used in the work on this
home.
Mr. LiNTEAU. To my knowledge, no. As I say, anything I orciered
I got receipts for and in turn got the money from Jimmy and paid
for it. It could have happened. It could have gone tlirough the
local. ^Miether the local paid it or not, I don't know. But if they
did, they were reimbursed by Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. All the records of local 614, they were destroyed,
Mere they, in 1953 ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they destroyed at any time ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. They were still in existence when you left the local ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. They were still in existence when you left the local ?
Mr. LiNTEAU. As far as I know.
Mr. Kennedy. You were working with them.
Mr. LiNTEAU. That doesn't mean I knew about all the records. To
my knoMdedge.
Mr. Kennedy. But there had not been any records that you knew
of that were destroyed or missing ?
5438 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. LiNTEAU. Not that I knew of.
Mr. Kennedy. You as recording secretary I expect would know
about the records ; would you not ?
Mr. LiNTEAu. Whether they were there or not ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Linteau. As far as the records are concerned, all I had was
the minute book when I was recording secretary. All other than that
I was out in the territory. I was not an office boy working in the
office. My job was on the outside.
Mr. Kennedy. You were there sometimes, because you were at
Mr. Hotfa's home. So you were familiar with at least part of the
operation of the local.
Mr. LiNTEATT. I was familiar with the operation, not part of it.
I was not in the office all the time. I was familiar with the minute
book. I was recording secretary.
Mr. Kennedy. What about the financial records? Were you fa-
miliar with those at all ?
Mr. Linteau. To an extent, let us say, I am familiar. For this
reason — although I believe, as I said, in 1945, after listening to Mr.
Hook — he has me all mixed up, tliis conversation was so confused
that I got to stop and think when I was recording secretary — I be-
lieve I was elected recording secretary in 1945, again in 1948; shortly
after that Mr. Wheeling left and I became secretary. I think I was
reelected again in 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. You were familiar with the financial records during
that pei'iod ?
INIr. Linteau. To an extent, a very small extent, due to the fact
that although I was secretary, we had a man in the office that was in
charge of the office.
^Ir. Kennedy. "\^^io was that ?
Mr. Linteau. Donald Stone.
JNIr. Kennedy. As recording secretary, you kept the minutes of the
executive board meetings.
Mr. Linteau. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. They never gave approval or gave permission for
the destruction of the records?
Mr. Linteau. To my knowledge they were not destroyed.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they ever give permission or say that the recoi-ds
should be destroyed?
Mr. Linteau. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. You v.ere i-ecording secretary.
Mr. Linteau. That is wliat I say, there was no reason for them.
To my knowledge the record was not destroyed.
IMr. Kennedy. I am asking you another question, whether that was
ever discussed at any of the meetings.
Mr. Linteau. At the executive board meetings ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Linteau. Not to my knowledge, and I attended all of them.
Mr. Kennedy. Then the answer is "No" ; it was not.
Mr. Linteau. Not to my knowledge; no.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't give any more definite answer than that?
Mr. Linteau. Mr. Kennedy, I said I believe I attended all the
executive board meetings.
Mr. Kennedy. And you can't remember?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IK THE LABOR FIELD 5439
IVIr. IjInteait, I can't remember at any executive board meeting a
discussion of destroyin<2: any records.
Mr. Kennedy. All right. Thank you. Do you know how much
altogether your wife has received from October 1, 195-1, through June
of this year?
Mr. LiNTEAu. No ; I don't.
The Chairman. If it was 32 months, which is my calculation — you
have the records here.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes ; I would like to put them in.
The Chairman. Counsel advises he has the actual records so my
calculation might be slightly in error. We will get it accurately from
the record.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. Any further questions? Senator Mundt?
Senator MuNDT. No.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Is he excused permanently, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Kennedy. I will have to ask him to stand by.
The Chairman. We may want to recall him.
Mr. Fitzgerald. He will be here.
The Chairman. We will excuse the witness as soon as we can.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Bellino.
The Chairman. Mr. Bellino, you have been previously sworn?
Mr. Bellino. No, sir.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give to this Senate Select Committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Bellino. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CARMINE S. BELLINO
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name, your place of resi-
dence and your business and occupation and how long you have been
employed by this committee.
Mr. Bellino. My name is Carmine S. Bellino, residence is Bethesda,
Md. I am a certilied i)ublic accountant. I have been with this com-
mittee since its inception.
(At this point. Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Bellino, you have been making a study and in-
vestigation of some of the activities of certain union officials in
Michigan ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You are familiar with some of the records of local
614 in Pontiac ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And also of certain of the records of other teamster
units in the Central Conference of Teamsters ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
ISir. Kennedy. You have made a study to determine the amounts of
money that were paid in connection with the cases of Mr. Keating
and Mr. Linteau and Mr. Licoletti and Mr. Marosso, is that right?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell us a calculation as to the amount of
money that was s])ent for their defense on the charges of extortion ?
5440 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Belling. The total amount of money spent in connection with
the legal fees^
Mr. Kennedy. Just with the legal fees, sir, first. Just in connection
with that, and then you can give all the legal fees you found.
Mr. Belling. There was a total of $27,000 paid to Mr. James
Hagerty, who, I understand, was the principal attorney in connection
with the defense of these individuals as well as Mr. Butt'alino and
others, which cases were going on about the same time.
There were also certain fees paid to Mr. David Krevia. The total
amount we do not know, but we estimate there was a minimum, at
least, of $8,000, or a total of $00,000 [)aid to attorneys in connection
with the defense of these individuals.
The Chairman. That iutdudes all four who have been mentioned
now i
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. $;U),000. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. In addition, Mr. Bellino, have you made a study to
determine how nnicli money was i)aid to the wives of Mr. Keating and
Mr. Linteau and these otlier two gentlemen during this period of time h
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So, 1 understand, the sums of money that were paid
to those wives started at the time that these gentlemen went to jail; is
that right i
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat has l)een the total amount that lias been paid
to the M'ives of these foui- individuals^
Mr. Belling. The total amount
Mr. Kennedy. As of this time.
Mr. Belling. The total amount paid by joint council 43 is $85,489.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you got that broken down as to each in-
dividual?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir. ^Irs. Daniel Keating received $15,750 from
November 1, 1954, through August 195(). Mrs. Louis Linteau received
a total of $22,750 for the period from Xovember 1, 1954, tlirough June
14. 1957. Mrs. Samuel Marrasso received a total of $17,514 for the
period from November 1, 1954, through December 10, 1956. Mrs.
Xecholetti received a total of $29,475 for the period from November 1,
1954, tlirough July 24, 1957.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the account called, by Mr. Holfa, out of
which these funds were paid I
Mr. Belling. This was called the joint council No. 43 good and
welfare fund.
Mr. Kennedy. This was called the good and welfare fund ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. This was a total of $85,000, wliich was paid as com-
pensation to 4 teamsters who were sent to jail for extortion; is that
right I
Ml'. Belling. Yes, sir.
The CHAiR:\r.vN. Where does this money come from ?
Mr. Beij.tno. It came from other locals in the Detroit area, which
is the dues of tlie members.
Tlie Chairman. In other words, dues paid by members to their
loca '. and from assessment of those locals into this joint council '\
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES^ IN THE LABOR FIELD 5441
The Chairman. Or whatever part of their dues is allocated to the
council ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So it actually came from the union dues ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Let us see if I get that correct. They spent $30,000
in lawyers' fees. Was that $30,000 out of the joint council 43 ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir. Joint council 43.
The Chairman. That makes $115,489 of union funds that was paid
in connection with these officers that had been convicted of extortion
and sent to the penitentiary ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And to their wives after they were sentenced ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir. It also includes certain individuals, like
Buifalino, that were acquitted, in connection with their legal fees.
The Chairman. There was another 1 or 2 that were charged that
were acquitted ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So the $30,000 included them ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have no payments to their wives, those who
were acquitted ?
Mr. Belling. That is right.
Senator MgNamara. Did you find out whether this fund was au-
thorized by a vote of the rank and file meeting, in your search ?
Mr. Belling. We found nothing in the minute to indicate any spe-
cific authorization of the payment of these moneys.
Senator MgNamara. But was the fund properly set up by a vote
of the rank and file ?
Mr. Belling. I have not found anything.
Senator MgNamara. What you refer to as the good and welfare
fimd?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Senator MgNamara. You do not know how it came into being ?
Mr. Belling. No, sir.
Senator MgNamara. You were not able to trace it ?
Mr. Belling. We have not found how it was established ; no, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. It was never mentioned, as a matter of fact.
Mr. Belling. No, sir.
Senator MgNamara. There is no indication it was set up by a vote
of the rank and file ?
Mr. Belling. No, sir.
Senator MgNamara. You do not have any indication whether there
was or not ?
Mr. Belling. No.
Senator MgNamara. I think it would be a very important question
whether or not it was properly set up.
Mr. Belling. There is no evidence whatever that it was properly
set up through the membership.
Senator ]\IcNamara. And you have asked for that ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Senator MgNamara. Nothing in the record indicates it was set
uj) properly ?
89330— 57— pt. 14 11
5442 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
>!r. lU.Li.iNo. That is riirht.
Mr. Kkxnf.uy. This liirure of $115.0(X) tooethov with the $55,000
mentioiunl this iiionnnsx used in the defense of Mr. Connelly and his
eolleairues. makes a total of some $170,000 that was used in oonnei'tion
with defendinir people for extortion and bombing and paying them
salaries after they were found iruilty.
Mr. Hri.i.iNo. That is correct.
Th.o CiiAiKMAx. A total of some $170,000, is that correct?
Mr. l>F.i.iJxo. Yes, sir.
Senator Muxnr. Is this inoney that Avas all collected from dues?
]S[r. Bkli.ixo. Yes, sir.
Senator ^Lrxnr. In other words they had accumulated $170,000
more than was needed to operate the union for legitimate purposes
of the worldnirmen. There was a $170,000 balance whicli they had
gotten from dues which conceivably could have been that much
lower, according to your testimony, and still have run the miion
except for these extracurricular expenses; is that correct?
Mr. Bkijaxo. That is right.
Mr. Kf-xxkot. ]Mr, Chairman, could we haA^e a 5-minrite recess?
The (^HAimrAX. I am willing.
The committee will stand in recess 5 miraites.
(l>rief recess.)
Tlie Chaikm \x. The ctnnmittee will be in order.
^Afembers t)f the select committee present at this point were Sen-
ators McClellan, McNamara.andMundt.)
Tlie Chaiumax. Tlie Chair wishes to announce that in view of the
larire number of witnesses the connnittee expects to hear during this
series of hearings, that we are going to have to work late.
Tonight we will not hold a n.ight session, but we will continue until
: 80 or 7 o'clock, at least. Tomorrow night, it is indicated now. there
will l>e a night session because we nuisr try to get this job done.
All right, let us have the next witness.
Mr. Kr.xxKUY. Mr. Ix?yhan.
The Chaikmax'. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select connnittee shall be the truth, the whole
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you (rod ?
Mr. Leyiiax. 1 do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. LEYHAN. ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL.
ARTHUK BONK
The Cn.\iRMAX'. Be seated.
Mr. Leyhan, state your name, your plare of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Lkyuax. John E. I^yhan, 048 Lincoln Road. Grosse Point,
Mich. I am secretary-treasurer of Greeniield Mills Restaurant Co.
The CiiAiRAtAX. You have counsel present.
Counsel, will you identify yourself for the record ?
Mr. RoxK. ^ly name is Arthur Bonk, and I reside at 13110 Xaidine,
in the city of Huntington Woods. ^lich. I am a practicing attorney
with my oilice located at oOOH Penobscot Building. Detroit. I am
admitted to practice in all courts of the v^tate of Michigan and all
Federal courts in Michigan ami the I'nited Stales Court of Ai)peals
i(U'Tlie Sixth Circuit.
IMPIWPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5443
Tlie CiiAiKMAN. Tliank you.
Mr. I^yhaii, I believe you have testified earlier today before the
coiuinittee and gave us some information.
Mr. JvEviiAN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you repeat the information you gave us?
Mr. Leyiian. Yes, sir.
The CiJAiKMAN. All right.
Mr. IvEYJiAN. Some 7 or 8 years ago, there was a grand jury in-
vestigation in Detroit concerning a payoff by restaurant industry to
Mr. Jloiia. There Avere rumors going around and 4 or 5 yeai-s ago I
attended a party given by the Michigan Association of Restaurant
Opei'ators at the Latin Quarter, on Grand Boulevard near Wood-
ward, in Detroit.
Someone sent me a ticket. I might as well state now I wish they
dichi't, but it was there. In back of me, I was alone, at the table
among numerous people who were probably strangers to me because
they ai-e not. very considerate about one individual that is attending
and they put you almost anywhere where there is room, but in back
of me was seated Mr. Schaefer, who was at that time secretary of the
Restaurant Guild in Detroit.
From snatches of conversation that he held with a man whom I did
not know, and I do not know now, he was talking about a payoff to
Mr. Iloffa. He said the payoff was made through Mr. Karsten, whose
brother-in-law was in the employ of the guild.
Ml-. Kennedy. AVlio is Mr. Karsten?
Mr. Leyiian. Pie is a restaurant operator in Detroit.
The Chairman. He also was head of the guild ?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes ; I believe he is an official of the guild.
The Chairman. "\^Tiat is Karsten 's given name?
Mr. Kennfjiy. It is Mr. Ted Karsten.
Mr. Leyhan. Yes; I believe that is the name.
Senator McNamara. "Wliile there is an interruption, you said there
was p. banquet or a dinner at the Latin Quarter in Detroit?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Who was it given by?
Mr. Leyhan. Michigan Restaurant Association.
Senator McNamara. The Michigan Restaurant Association.
^Ir. Leyhan. I believe that is the name, the Michigan Restaurant
Caterers' Association or some name.
Senator McNamap.a. Not the guild, but by the association which is
a different organization.
Mr. Leyhan. That is right.
Senator McNamara. Yes; but they are both organizations of em-
})loyers?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Restaurant owners?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Senator Mlndt. The guild as I take it, is an associatioii of restau-
rant owners in the city of Detroit ?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you learn, or what did they say about the
brother-in-law?
Mr. Leyhan. Well, they said he was on salary and turned a part
of his salary for a payoff to Hoffa.
5444 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. He was on a salary and carried part of his salary
as a payoff to Hoffa ?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How often would he deliver that payoff to Hoffa?
Mr. Lethan. Well, he said probably 2 or 3 times a year. It was
quite noisy as you can recognize in a party like that, and maybe I
didn't catch exactly, and it was just what I caught.
The Chairman. Either 2 or 3 times a year ?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, I believe you told the committee two times a year.
Mr. Leyhan. I think that I told them that because I thought that
was right. It is sometimes difficult to say, and probably my memory
isn't as good and you can't remember all of the details, especially
when you hear snatches of conversation.
The thing bothered me and I am frank with you. I don't like to
see these things. I thought that your committee which has done some
pretty nice work — and I am not saying this to flatter you at all, and
I would be just as critical if j^ou didn't— you were doing a job and
you had facilities to trace these things and I believed they should be
brought out into the open.
I don't want to get involved in things and at the same time I feel I
am in business, and I don't want to be the next victim on a payoff
either.
The Chairman. You did what you thought was your duty and re-
ported the information you had ?
Mr. Leyhan. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Mr. Kennedy. You are an officer in the guild, yourself ?
Mr. Leyhan. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You work for an officer of the guild ?
Mr. Leyhan. I am part of the company, Mr. Kennedy. I am an
officer of the company and part owner, and I own stock. The presi-
dent of our company is an officer of the guild.
Mr. Kennedy. '^Vliat is his name ?
Mr. Leyhan, Mr. Jack Lawrence.
Mr. Kennedy. And he is secretary-treasurer of the guild ?
Mr. Leyhan. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He writes the checks for the guild ?
Mr. Leyhan. No, sir ; I don't believe so, I don't know, really. I
think that he merely approves the vouchers.
Mr. Kennedy, He approves the vouchers ?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. As you understood this conversaiton, the brother-
in-law of Mr. Karsten, who is president of the guild, was on the pay-
roll of the guild, but in fact his money, the salary and expenses that he
received was in fact turned over twice a year to Mr. James Hoffa, is
that right? .
Mr. Leyhan. That is the way it was.
Mr. Kennedy, Amounting to approximately $1,500 ?
Mr, Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that right?
Mr. Leyhan. That is right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5445
Mr. Kennedy. And that he did not perform any service for the
^uild himself, and that his salary was just used as the payoff to Mr.
Hoffa.
Mr. Leyhan. And there was not anything in salaries, but the salary
was a payoff in a sense.
Mr. Kennedy. That was just done through the brother-in-law, is
that right?
Mr. Leyhan. That is right.
Senator Mundt. As a member of the guild and a partner in a busi-
ness that belongs to the guild, could you tell us how the guild is
financed.
Mr. Leyhan. The guild was financed by dues from I don't know
how many restaurants and it was established orginally for the purpose
of negotiating with the unions.
Senator Mundt. Each member of the guild and each member res-
ttiurant I suj^pose pays an annual fee for guild membership ?
Mr. Leyhan. That is right, sir.
Senator Mundt. And it was allegedly out of this money which you
were all taxed to pay that that payoff was made to Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Leyhan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. The tax was paid on the salary of Mr. Karsten's
brother-in-law, and then that money, after the taxes were paid, was
turned over, is that right ?
INIr. Leyhan. From the conversation that I overheard.
Mr. Kennedy. The money was turned over and it was returned to
Mr. Karsten, and he would put it in an envelope and he would bring
it down twice a year to Mr. Hoffa's office?
Mr. Leyhan. That is the sense I got from the conversation that was
going on.
]Mr. Kennedy. You got quite a bit of that conversation if that is
where you got it from.
Mr. Leyhan. That is where I got it from.
Mr. Kennedy. And you say the man who gave you that information
is dead now; is that right?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir ; I am sorry to say.
The Chairman. All right; your information has been helpful to
some extent.
Senator McNamara. Are you still secretary-treasurer of the Green-
field Mills organization ?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. And they are still members of the guild ?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. You protested this business to your associates
as you did to this committee ?
Mr. Leyhan. I did not mention it because it appeared to me as if
it was just a rumor, you know, and I didn't want to confront and ac-
cuse somebody of something that I wasn't sure of. But I thought here
was an opportunity to find out.
Senator McNamara. As secretary-treasurer of the Greenfield Mills
Corp., you write out this check that goes to the guild ; do you not ?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, or I order it written out.
Senator McNamara. And you sign it ?
Mr. Leyhan. Not necessarily ; someone else might sign it ?
5446 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
Senator McNamara. Someone else might sign it other than the sec-
retary-treasurer ?
Mr. Lethan. Yes, sir.
Senator McNam.\ra. Well, do you sign these checks that go to the
guild, and have you signed them ?
Mr. Leyhan. No, sir.
Senator McNamara. Wlio does ?
Mr. Leyhan. We have 3 or 4 people who are authorized to sign
checks because we pay a terrific amount of bills every day.
Senator INIcNamara. I know something of your operation. Now,
you are nevertheless secretary-treasurer, and therefore in charge of
the funds?
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. You are protesting about money that goes
from the guild to this illegal payoff and you are one of the keymen
in it ; are you not ?
Mr. Leyhan. In what, sir ?
Senator McNamara. In making the payment to the guild that ulti-
mately goes out.
Mr. Leyhan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
You may stand aside for the present.
Mr. Garrett Reading, will you come around, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Reading. I do.
TESTIMONY OF GAREETT READING, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, CLARENCE A. BRADFORD
The Chairman. Be seated and state your name and your place of
residence and your business or occupation.
Mr. Reading. Garrett L. Reading, lTl-53 Ohio, Detroit, Mich.;
supervisor of the Karsten's Cafeteria, liaison man for the guild.
The Chairman. You have counsel present. Will you identify your-
self for the record ?
Mr. Bradford. Clarence A. Bradford, attorney. Residence, 1824
Russell Street, Dearborn, Mich.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Reading, you have a brother-in-law by the name
of Mr. Karsten?
Mr. Reading. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. He is president of the g-uild ; is that right ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you are employed by Mr. Karsten in his restau-
rant ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You do some work there ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat services do you perform ?
Mr. Reading. Supervisor.
Mr. Kennedy. You are supervisor ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5447
Mr. Reading, Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You operate the restaurant for him ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What sahiry and compensation do you receive there?
Mr. Reading. I get $167 and a few cents every 2 weeks.
Mr. Kennedy. Every 2 weeks ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you also employed by the guild ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What compensation do you receive ?
Mr. Reading. $50 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. $50 a week salary ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you recei ve some expenses ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How much expenses do you receive ?
Mr. Reading. $50.
Mr. Kennedy. So you receive $100 a week ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been with the guild ?
Mr. Reading. Since late 1951, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So for about (> or 7 vears you have been with the
guild?
Mr. Reading. About 6 years.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, the money that you received from the guild you
deposit in a savings account ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. With the Detroit Bank ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What services do you perform for the guild, Mr.
Reading ?
Mr. Reading. I am supposed to go out and make secret tests around
and talk to the employees and find out what feelings they have toward
the management and things of that kind.
Mr. Kennedy. You have 15 or 16 different restaurant owners who
are members of the guild, is that right ?
Mr. Reading. I couldn't say right offhand how^ many there are.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, you would know, wouldn't you?
Mr. Reading. I wouldn't know exactly how many there are that
belong to the guild.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you contact the employers ?
Mr. Reading. Not the employers.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Do the employers know about you ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, ^^^lat services do you perform ?
Mr. Reading. I go out and I find out what beefs they have among
the employees and I go back and give the reports to the guild.
Mr. Kennedy. Whom do you give reports to ?
Mr. Reading. Mr. Karsten and Mr. Simonson, if there are any.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Simonson has not been around for 2V2 years.
Mr. Reading. We haven't had any trouble for some time,
Mr. Kennedy. You go around to the restaurants ?
Mr. Reading. Do I?
5448 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Reading. Once in a great while, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. But you still receive $50 and expenses ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How often do you go around to the restaurants ?
Mr. Reading. I couldn't say right offhand how often I go.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you ever go ?
Mr. Reading. Once in a while, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Once a year ?
Mr. Reading. More often than that.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you tell the employer that you are coming by
the restaurant ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. None of the members of the guild know that you
are there ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. They don't even know you are employed by the
guild?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What do you do when you get to the restaurant?
Mr. Reading. I just go in and sit there and have a cup of coffee.
Mr. Kennedy. You get paid $50 salary a week, and $50 expenses
for going around occasionally to the restaurant and having a cup of
coffee ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all you do ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Those are the services you perform and you go
around and have a cup of coffee ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you go back and report on the cup of coffee to
Mr. Karsten ?
Mr. Reading. Well, if there is anything to report ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What sort of things are you reporting ?
Mr. Reading. If there is any grievance among the employees and
the management.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Karsten wants to know about the grievances?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What has that to do with the guild — he can answer
the question.
Mr. Reading. The guild wants to know.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not report to anybody and the guild members
do not even know you are there.
Mr. Reading. Mr. Karsten is the guild.
Mr. Kennedy. You report then to your brother-in-law ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. None of the other members of the guild even know
you are doing that ?
Mr. Reading. I couldn't say anything about that.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you file a written report ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir, oral report.
IMPROPER ACnVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5449
Mr. Kennedy. What do you say, tliat the coffee was good ?
Mr. Keading. That is it.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the kind of report ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You get $50 salary and $50 expenses for that ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What do you do with this money ? You put it in a
bank account ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. In a Detroit bank ?
Mr. Reading. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, I am just looking for instance in 1955, starting
down here, and it begins before that, but in 1955 you deposited this
money and then in March you withdrew $1,814.87. What did you do
with that money ?
Mr. Reading. Just a habit of doing it, taking it out.
Mr. Kennedy. You just wanted to take that much money out?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then 6 months later you withdrew on August 10,
some months later, you withdrew $1,850, approximately the same
amount.
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do with that ?
Mr. Reading. I spent it, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you spend it ?
Mr. Reading. Oh, different things. I bought a car and a few other
things and wearing apparel.
Mr. Kennedy. What sort of things ?
Mr. Reading. Well, food.
Mr. Kennedy. What car did you buy then ?
Mr. Reading. I bought a Chevy.
Mr. Kennedy. In what year ?
Mr. Reading. 1955.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you use that $1,850 for that?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir, one of them, yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then, 6 months later, on January 25, 1956, you with-
drew the exact same amount, $1,850.
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat did you do with that ?
Mr. Reading. I spent it, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you spend it ?
Mr. Reading. I just spent it.
Mr. Kennedy. Six months after that, September 14, 1956, you with-
drew $1,850, the exact same amount.
Mr. Reading. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do with that ?
Mr. Reading. I spent it.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you spent it ?
Mr. Reading. Oh, the same way, just food and clothing and things
like that.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you withdraw $1,800 ?
Mr. Reading. That is a habit I have of taking it out.
Mr. Kennedy. You wanted to withdraw $1,850 ?
5450 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kenxedy. Tell us how you spent the money.
Mr. Reading. I couldn't, sir, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You told us when I talked to you in Detroit, you said
if you told me a truthful answer it might tend to incriminate you.
Mr, Reading. I did not tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not tell me? You said a truthful answer
would tend to incriminate you and you must have had something in
mind. What did you do with the money ?
Mr. Reading. I didn't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. Then, on February 25th, 6 months after that, you
withdrew exactly the same amount $1,850.
Mr. Reading. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. That is February 25, 1957.
Mr. Reading. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, What did you do with that ?
Mr. Reading. I spent it the same way.
Mr. Kennedy, Here and there ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not know where you spent it?
Mr. Reading, I don't know where I spent it,
Mr, Kennedy, Why did you tell me that telling me that out in
Detroit would incriminate you?
Mr. Reading. I don't know.
Mr, Kennedy, You must know that,
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know that either ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell the committee how you spent the
money ?
Mr. Reading. I have no way,
Mr. Kennedy. "Wliy did you withdraw every 6 months, $1,850?
Mr. Reading. That is a habit I had of taking it out and spending
it.
Mr. Kennedy, T^Hiy just $1,850 and why not $1,900 ?
Mr. Reading. That was in the bank to take out.
Mr. Kennt^dy. No, you left some money in the bank.
Mr. Reading. I left $400 and I built it up again.
Mr. Kennedy. Why $1,850 always?
Mr. Reading. That is the way I wanted to take it out,
Mr. Kennedy, What did you do with the money ?
Mr. Reading. I spent it.
Mr. Kennedy. WTiere did you spend the money ?
Mr. Reading. Different places. I have no receipts for it.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1957 where did you spent the $1,850 ?
Mr. Reading, The same place I did in 1956, sir,
Mr, Kennedy, I am sure of that but where was it ?
Mr. Reading. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, I can understand, maybe if it was 5 or 6 years
ago, but this is iust 5 or 6 months ago, and I am asking you about a
withdrawal of $1,850 just 5 or 6 months ago. What did you do with
the money?
Mr. Reading. I spent it.
Mr, Kennedy. Wliere did you spend it ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5451
Mr. Reading. I don't know where I spent it and if I knew, I would
tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell the committee one place you spent it.
Mr. Reading. I spent it all over. I spent it here and I spent it
there. No certain place. I buy wearing apparel and I buy food for
the house, and I pay electric light bills and gas bills and telephone
bills.
Mr. Kennedy. Always in cash, and why didn't you just write a
check ?
Mr. Reading. I didn't w^int to write a check.
Mr. Kennedy. You just wanted to get $1,850.
Mr. Reading. And just pay it out.
Mr. Kennedy. Here and there.
Mr. Reading. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kj5nnedy. When we first talked to you, or first interviewed
you and tried to find out what you did for the guild, you said you
went around and saw the restaurant owners and you went around
and had interviews with them.
Mr. Reading. No ; I did not.
Mr. Ivennedy. Yes ; you did.
Mr. Reading. I am sorry.
Mr. Kennedy. You said you went around and saw the restaurant
owners and we went around and interviewed the restaurant owners
and they never heard of you.
Mr. Reading. I think that you are making a mistake there. I think
Mr. Bellino asked me and I said I didn't do any work. I didn't call
on them. I think that is the way.
Mr. Ivennedy. Were you supposed to call on them?
Mr. Reading. I am supposed to call on them and I did call on them
unbeknownst but just to make out a report.
Mr. Kennedy. How could you call on someone unbeknownst to
them?
Mr. Reading. All you do is walk in there.
Mr. Kennedy. You say you didn't have the time, that you were
supposed to call on the restaurant owners and you didn't have the
time and you had the time to go around there, according to your testi-
mony before the committee.
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you not go in and talk to the restaurant
owners ?
Mr. Reading. I didn't talk to restaurant owners, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Bellino, come around, please.
You have been previously sworn, Mr. Bellino. Proceed.
TESTIMONY OF CARMINE S. BELLINO— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. Have you made a study of the income-tax returns
of Mr. Reading, in connection with this amount of money?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. This money that he was paid by the guild?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. Could you tell the committee what you have found
in connection with that sum of money ?
5452 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Belling. In 1953 and 1954 lie reported the total amount that
he received from the guild as in the form of salary. The figures,
however, do not jibe, and he seems to have reported a little more than
what the Detroit Guild showed that they had paid him.
However, in 1955, he only reported a certain portion of what he
received. He was paid the same amount of money but a portion of it
was treated as expenses. He reported as income for 1955 only $2,700
and in 1954 he had reported $6,200.
Then, in 1956 he reported only $2,600. Now, the total amount that
he received from the guild in 1956 was $4,368. He reported only
$2,600 of it.
In 1955 he received $4,542 and he reported only $2,700 of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us what that means ?
Mr. Belling. The significance of this is that he realized that money
was going out for some source that he was not using for his benefit
and he was paying income tax on that money, and he decided he was
going to try and save on income tax, and asked the accountant to
split his receipts between salary and expenses.
However, he has admitted to us, and he has given us a sworn state-
ment that he had no expenses whatsoever and that he made no trips
around to these various restaurants.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't he say in the sworn affidavit originally that
he was hired to bring new members into the guild ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir; his original statement to us was that he
was hired to bring new members into the guild but he was so busy
at Karsten's Cafeteria working from at least 9 or 9 : 30 in the morn-
ing to 8 at night, that he said, "I just don't have time to get around
to any of these other restaurants."
Mr. Kennedy. Despite that fact, during this last period of time,
he has been receiving in addition to the $50 a week in salary, $50 in
expenses.
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is how it is broken up in your records ; is that
right?
Mr. Belling. It seems to be broken up by the accountant and there
is no real split to it. There is just $420 he might receive and they
will throw in $270 of it as expenses and the balance is salary.
Mr. Kennedy. That would give him, if he had reported all of that
as salary, he would have had to pay greater taxes than if he reported
half of it as income and half as expenses.
Mr. Belling. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. You have me somewhat confused, Mr. Bellino.
According to Mr. Reading's testimony, he has an income of $167 twice
a month. That is $334 a month.
Mr. Belling. In 1956 or in 1957 he was really getting a regular
amount, but for instance in 1957, January 29, he got a check for
$420. Of that, the accountant split $170 as salary, $250 for expenses.
The same pattern was followed in 1956 except that on January 16,
1956, he received $420, a cashier's check, which the accountant treated
on his records as expenses. That is, the whole amount was expenses.
In February he received a check for $336. The salary was shown
as $136 and expenses was shown as $200.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5453
On March 5, the following month, he received another check for
$336, and salary was shown as $136 and expenses $200. The same thing
for May.
In June he received a check for $420. That was shown as all
expenses. In July, $420 again, shown as expenses. Then August, he
went back to $336 and $136 as salary, and $200 for expenses.
In September the same thing, October was $420, but this trnie they
show $170 as salary and $250 as expenses.
In November $336 again, and the same thing in December and they
show $136 for salary and $200 for expenses. So that the total amount
in that year was $4,368 where he reported only $2,600.
Senator Mundt. What did he do in his income tax about this $3,700
that is taken out periodically, $1,850 at a time in cash?
Mr. Belling. He did not report that at all.
Senator Mundt. He did not report that as income at all ?
Mr. Belling. No, sir, the $3,110 is not reported as income. I might
say, what he did report, I would have to say that a portion of it was
reported. That is, of the $3,100. That is, $1,800 of it was reported
or included in the $1,258 as salary which made a total of $2,600.
Senator Mundt. Perhaps the witness can help me out. You testi-
fied that you got $200 a month salary, and $200 a month expenses for
your work for the building.
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. So you would have to report on your income tax
at least the $2,400 a year net salary that you were getting and Mr.
Bellino says it isn't there. Can you explain that?
Mr. Reading. Senator, I am not a bookkeeper, or a CPA and I
bring down my earnings from the cafeteria and they also have my
earnings from the guild, and he makes out my income tax and I take
nothing off and he does all of it himself. I have nothing to do with it.
Senator Mundt. He has to rely on the figures you gave him.
Mr. Reading. No, sir, that is a figure from his books and not my
books, and I have no books. That is his books. My earnings, and
the Karsten books would be what I earned and I take that down.
Senator ISIundt. Karsten would have the books on your salary at
the restaurant.
Mr. Reading. Mr. Carroll would have my earnings, too, because
he is the bookkeeper for the guild. Do you understand?
Senator Mundt. The same man ?
Mr. Reading. No, Mr. Carroll.
Senator Mundt. Who is he ?
Mr. Reading. He is the auditor for the guild and the bookkeeper,
a CPA.
Senator Mundt. He also is the auditor for the restaurant?
Mr. Reading. No, sir. I would take them down and give them to
him and, of course, he would have the one of my earnings and he
would send it to me through the mail, and I would bring it down to
him and bring the one from Karsten's doAvn to him and he is the man
who figured it out.
Mr. Belling. I might clear up one point. On this 1956, Avhere
he reported $2,600
Senator Mundt. That is reported to the Federal Government as
total income?
5454 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Belling. On his income tax, yes, sir. He reported $l,o42 of
his expenses in with his salary, and he did not report $1,768, which
he received from the Detroit Guild
Mr. Kennedy. Are you talking about the total salary or just the
salary from the guild ?
Mr. Belling. Just the Detroit Guild, and not the total.
Senator Mundt. I cannot get clear in my mind the information
we get from Mr. Reading and the information we get from Mr.
Bellino.
As I figure the income that Mr. Reading has, it is $200 a month
salary and the expenses. I would assume they have to report those
and then take a deduction, but you have $200 a month in salary and
you have got $334 a month from the restaurant, which is $534 net
income per month, according to your testimony here, which I would
think you would have to multiply by 12, and show a total net income
to the Federal Government on your income tax return of over $6,000.
Now, maybe I do not understand something about this, but that is
the waj' I figure it. You told us, I believe, that your $167 twice a
month was net, after withholding taxes.
Mr. Reading. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. So that would be $167 times two, and that is $334
net income from your restaurant business. Then there is $200 a month
net income from your guild activities.
Mr. Reading. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. $535 a month net income. Twelve times that
amount is about $6,070 or something in that neighborhood.
I would think that would have to show up on the income tax, Mr.
Bellino.
Mr. Bellino. I might say that these figures that I have are his net
cash income. There are no payroll records from the guild to show any
withholding. This is just a net amount that I am speaking of. They
are the actual net payments to him.
Senator Mundt. Wliat I am trying to discover, if you can, from the
income tax, is whether or not the $200 a month, which is the figure at
issue because of the curious manner in which $1,850 was taken out every
6 months and disposed of in cash — I am trying to find out whether
that particular $3,700 was included as income by Mr. Reading to him-
self or whether he considered that to be money which was transferred
to somebody else — which seems to be the issue in question.
I would think the income tax would show pretty clearly whether
he reported to Uncle Sam this amount of net income or whether he
deducted from what he put in the $3,700 and reported $3,000 of net
income.
Mr. Belling. He has not reported all of the money he received on
the basis that he considered the proportion of it as expenses and that
portion he did not report.
Senator Mundt. Can you explain that inconsistency?
Mr. Reading. As I said before, I had nothing to do about making
out the income-tax report. Mr. Carroll took care of that. I made no
claims and if he made the claims, that is up to him and I don't laiow
anything about it.
Senator Mundt. You would have a hard time convincing the In-
ternal Revenue that, because you signed it.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' L.\BOR FIELD 5455
Mr. Reading. I thought he was taking care of it, sir. That is the
whole thing because I gave him both slips, the one I received from
Karsten's and the one that he sent me from the guild. I brought them
both down and he made out the income tax.
Senator Mundt. You agree with me that my summary of your
income tax is right, that you get about $6,700 a year net income ?
Mr. Reading. Yes.
Senator Mundt. And you would agree that that should show up
somewhere ?
Mr. Reading. Certainly. lie is the man who is getting paid to
make out my income tax report and not me and he is a CPA, too.
Senator Mitndt. It seems to me you are apt to get in trouble with
the Internal Revenue Department. Maybe you need a new account-
ant, but the way you gave it to us and the way we get it from the
income tax report do not jibe.
I have not seen the income tax report, but I am sure Mr. Bellino
lias. He is a CPA, too, and he looks at it.
Mr. Bradford. Could I ask Mr. Bellino where he got the informa-
tion from, Mr. Carroll's books or the Internal Revenue Department ?
Mr. Bellino. From Mr. Carroll's books. I might say, Mr. Carroll
warned Mr. Reading when he made this split that he was going to have
to take it up with Internal Revenue and explain any expenses that he
said he had.
Mr. Bradford. Did Mr. Bellino know that Mr. Carroll said that to
Mr. Reading ?
Mr. Bellino. Mr. Carroll so informed me.
Mr. Bradford. It is hearsay again.
Senator Mundt. Do you have the Internal Revenue reports of Mr.
Reading ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Do they show the $6,700 ?
Mr. Bellino. For what year ?
Senator Mundt. For 1956.
Mr. Bellino. It is $2,600 in 1956.
Senator Mundt. Total net income ?
Mr. Bellino. Just the Detroit Restaurant Guild. The total net
income is $7,325.50. There is $4,725 being Karsten's Catering Co.,
but the guild is $2,600.
Senator Mundt. That is short $900 then. It should be $3,700.
Mr, Kennedy. Mr. Reading, Mr. Chairman, gave us an affidavit
that I woirid like to read the first part of.
The Chairman. Read it and ask the witness if it is true.
Mr. Kennedy (Reading) :
I, Garrett L. Reading, of 17153 Ohio Street, Detroit, Mich., hereby make the
following statement to Mr. Edward M. Jones and Carmine S. Bellino, whom
I know to be investigators of the staff of the Senate Select Committee on Im-
proper Activities in the Labor and Management Field. I make this statement
freely and voluntarily knowing that it may be used against me in a public
hearing.
I am presently employed as supervisor for Karsten's Cafeteria, located at
1550 Woodward Avenue. I have been employed in this capacity since late 1950.
Mr. Kirsten. the owner of the cafeteria, is my hrother-in-law, and my duties
consist in being supervisor and general helper at the cafeteria.
I begin my duties around 11 a. m., in the morning and usually do not leave the
place until after 9 p. m. at niglit, except Monday when I leave after 10. I am
so employed 6 days a week.
5456 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. Is that a true statement up to now ?
Mr. Reading. It is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That is from 11 in the morning, until 9 at night.
That is 6 days a week.
Sometime late in 1951 Mr. Karsten gave me the job which I hold at the Detroit
Restaurant Guild. He asked me if I would like to have a job and I said, "Sure,
I would like to have a job. I could do it in my spare time."
Later, I would say about a week later, he told me what I was supposed to do
and he told me I was supposed to go out and get new members for the guild. At
the time that he offered me the job with the guild, he told me I would receive
$50 a week. I received payment from the guild about every 2 months or so,
usually in a lump, of around $250 or $300.
I spend proceeds of the checks that I receive from the guild for personal items.
I usually cash the checks at any bank that I might be near.
In view of the long hours that I work, I couldn't find out how I was going
to do the work of visiting the restaurants for new members. I was putting in
too much time down at Karsten's.
Although I have been paid at the rate of $50 a week since 1951 through
the present time, I haven't had an opportunity to get around to see any restaurant
owners as yet. This includes restaurant owners who are members of the guild
as well as potential members who are in the restaurant business. In other
words, I have not visited anyone or done any work whatsoever for the salary
paid to me by the guild.
Senator Mundt. Is that a true statement up to now ?
Mr. Reading. No.
Senator MuNDa\ Where did you start to falsify ?
Mr. Reading. The owners. I got that mixed up, when he said the
owners.
Senator JSIundt. What should you have said ?
Mr. Reading. The places.
Senator Mundt. What do you want to straighten out now in the
statement up to now ? Just change the word "owners" ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir. It should be "employees."
Mr. Kennedy (reading) :
Although I have been paid at the rate of $50 a week since 1951 to the present
time, I haven't had an opportunity to get around to see any restaurant employees
as yet.
This includes restaurant employees who are members of the guild as well as
potential members who are in the restaurant business. In other words, I have
not visited anyone or done any work whatsoever for the salary paid to me by
the guild.
Senator Mundt. Is that a true statement now, substituting the word
"employees" for "emplo3'ers" ?
Mr. Reading. No, no.
Senator Mundt. Well, it is your statement.
Mr. Reading. I laiow it is my statement.
Senator Mundt. You swore to it and you just said you wanted to
change the word "employers" to "employees." We fixed that up for
you. What else do you want to change ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. That is a sworn statement.
Senator JMundt. You do not look to me like a fellow who would go
out and make a false sworn statement which is a complete lie, to a
congressional committee. Maybe you could make a mistake between
employees and employers, but if you want to change something else,
that gets more serious.
What else do you want to change ?
miPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5457
Mr. Reading. I could change the testimony we made today in the
other room.
Senator MuNDT. ^Yliat?
Mr. Reading. The testimony we made in the other room.
Senator Mundt. You want to change that, too? I want to find
out what you want to change in your sworn statement.
Mr. Reading. I don't want to change the affidavit.
Mr. Bradford. Could I say this, Mr. Senator.
Senator Mundt. We ought to find out from the witness first what
changes he wants to make.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Let us get down to the issue here. Is that state-
ment you gave this counsel true or false ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Reading. A misunderstanding on my part, sir. I was there
without an attorney and I was forced into this by Mr. Bellino. He was
the one who pushed it onto me.
Mr. Kennedy. Don't say that. You were not telling me the truth
when I was there.
Mr. Reading. You were not questioning me then.
Mr. Kennedy. You were not telling me the truth, either. That was
the third time you were interview^ed. You had your attorney there.
So don't talk like that.
The Chairman. Let us get down and do it. You claim this state-
ment is false ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
The Chairman. You gave a false statement ?
Mr. Reading. I didn't give a false statement.
The Chairman. You signed it.
Mr. Reading. I didn't understand it, sir.
The Chairman. You didn't understand it ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
The Chairman. It is very simple language. Now what is your
statement about ? How much money did you get ?
Mr. Reading. You have the figures right there of the money.
The Chairman. How much did you get?
Mr. Reading. I got $50 a week.
The Chairman. What did you do with it ?
Mr. Reading. I spent it.
The Chairman. You put it in the bank?
Mr. Reading. I spent it after I put it in the bank.
The Chairman. You put all that money you got from the guild in
one separate account?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In a savings account ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. About each 6 months you would draw out.
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Enough to pay the other obligation you had ?
JNIr. Reading. That is right.
The Chairman. That obligation was to take this money back to
Karsten, who, in turn, took it to Jim Hoffa. That is the truth about
it, isn't it?
89330 — 57— pt. 14 12
5458 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES US' THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Heading. No, sir.
The Chairman. Don't you know that is a fact i
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
The Chairman. That is where the money went.
Mr. Reading. I don't know anything about it.
The Chairman. That was the purpose of it. You didn't do any
work to get it. Isn't that tlie trutli ?
Mr. Reading. I didn't give Jimmy — Mr. Karsten any money.
The Chairman. All right. It is your oath and your record. Tlie
only explanation you got is that you would draw out $1,850 every 6
months and go out and spend it. You can't tell wliat you spent it
for. Is that correct ?
Mr. Reading. That is right.
The (^HAiRMAN. Are there any further questions?
Mr. Kj3nnedy. I would like to point out, once again, when I talked
to you out in Detroit you said you would not tell me where the $1,850
went, because it might tend to incriminate you.
The Chairman. Did you say that?
Mr. Reading. I did, sir.
The Chairman. Will it, if you tell the truth ?
Mr. Reading. I don't know.
The Chairman. You said it might tend to incriminate you. Do
you think now, if you told the truth about it, it might tend to in-
criminate you ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is why you are not telling the truth?
Mr. Reading. That is right.
Tlie CiiAiRMAN^. That is a fact, isn't it ?
(No response.)
Senator Mundt. Why didn't you take the fifth amendment to be-
gin with, instead of running us through this cock-and-bull story?
We have had it a lot of times. It is nothing new. You come up
here with a fairytale that you say is false, and you say what you
told us in the other committee room is false, and you will take the
fifth amendment. I can understand.
Mr. Reading. Not in the other committee room was false, sir. I
didn't sa}^ anything in the other committee room false.
The Chairman. Didn't what ?
Mr. Reading. I didn't say anything in the other committee room
was false.
The Chairman. You didn't say what was false ?
Mr. Reading. In the other committee room, Senator ^lundt
said
Senator Mundt. I thought he said he wanted to change his state-
ment in the other committee room, so I assumed it was false.
The Chairman. He said he didn't want to change it. What part
is there about it that might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Reading. What I did with the money, sir.
The Chairman. What you did with the money ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
The C^HAiRMAN. Did you do something unlawful with it?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
The (^HAiRMAN. Did you turn it over to Mr. Karsten?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR TIELD 5459
The Chairman. Did you turn it over to someone else ?
Mr. Keading. No, sir.
The Chairman, You didn't give this money to Mr. Karsten?
Mr. Keading. I did not.
The Chairman. You didn't get the money for doing nothing and
know that it would go for another purpose ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir ; I did not, sir.
The Chairman. What work did you do?
Mr. Reading. What work did I do ?
The Chairman. Yes, to get the money, to earn it.
Mr. Reading. I went out and called on these customers, I was sup-
posed to, and go out tiiere and contact them.
The Chairman. What is there about that that would incriminate
3'ou ?
Mr. Reading. Nothing would incriminate me there.
The Chairman. Nothing?
Mr. Reading. No. But you want to know where the money went,
and I spent the money, and that is all.
The Chairman. Would it incriminate you each time you spent it?
Mr. Reading. Well, I don't know.
The Chairman. Is that your testimony, that you can't tell on any
time what you spent it for?
Mr. Reading. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Because, any time you spent it, and you told about
it, it might incriminate you ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. In other words, we could get to it this way, Mr.
Reading, if you are going to take the fifth amendment. I think you
can testify this much; that, as a matter of fact, you did not spend
this $1,850 each time you got it on yourself or your family for electric-
light bills or grocery bills and clothes. That is correct? You did
not spend it all for that purpose. Is that right?
Mr. Reading. Practically so.
Senator Mundt. So it is the part that you did not spend for your
own household necessities and your own clothing and enjoyment, it
is the part you spent some other way which might tend to incriminate
you if you told us how yoii speiit it ?
Mr. Reading. It could be.
Senator Mundt. What part ? Which ? Can you give us some idea
how much you spent in this way you don't want to talk about and
how much you spent legitimately?
Mr. Reading. I couldn't say, sir.
Senator Mundt. As a matter of fact, you spent the most of that
part you cannot talk about. You could pay your grocery bills and
light bills from your grocer operation salary.
Mr. Reading. That is right.
The Chairman. When you testified today in executive session and
hei'e, when you said you couldn't remember, you were not telling tlie
truth. Is that correct?
Mr. Reading. That is correct.
The Chairman. So you did testify falsely.
Mr. Reading. No, I wouldn't say.
5460 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
The CuAiRiiAX. When you said you couldn't remember, you do
remember. You know you spent it in a way that you say might tend
to incriminate you. So j^ou do remember, don't you?
Mr. Readixg. I don't remember how I spent it alL
The CHAiEMAisr. I didn't say all of it ; any of it.
Mr. Readixg. I don't remember how I spent it.
The Chairman. You don't remember ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
The Chairman. How do you then think it might tend to incriminate
you?
Mr. Reading. I don't know.
The Chairman. Don't you know you do know how you spent it
or used it ?
Mr. Reading. No, sir.
The Chairman. You say you don't know how ?
Mr. Reading. That is right.
The Chairman. How do you contend it might tend to incriminate
you if you answered the question and told the truth? Can you
explain that ?
Mr. Reading. Upon the advice of counsel I plead the fifth amend-
ment to the Constitution and claim the information asked for is not
necessary or would be of assistance to the Congress as the basis for
the enactment of law.
The Chairman. You have finally gotten down to that point, haven't
you. In other words, you can't tell.
Mr. Reading. You crowded me down.
The Chairman. It would tend to incriminate you.
Mr. Kennedy. What is so funny, Mr. Reading ?
The Chairman. A lot of these folks think they are funny.
Senator McNamara. You heard the previous witness' testimony,
Mr. Levhan ?
Mr. Reading. Who ?
Senator McNamara. Mr. Leyhan.
Mr. Reading. I don't know the gentleman.
Senator McNamara. You didn't know the previous witness ?
Mr. Reading. No, I don't.
Senator McNamara. You represent the guild ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. He is secretary-treasurer of perhaps the big-
gest member of the guild as far as volume of business is concerned
and you don't know him ?
Mr. Reading. I don't know him.
Senator IMcNamara. But you are their agent. You are the agent
for the guild ?
Mr. Reading. Yes.
Senator McNamara. You don't know this gentleman ?
Mr. Reading. No ; I do not, sir.
Senator McNamara. You heard him testify that this money was
paid to you for the purpose of you conveying it through another
party to Jimmy Hoffa ; didn't you ?
Mr. Reading. Yes, but it is not true, sir.
Senator McNamara. It is not true ?
Mr. Reading. No.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5461
Senator McNamara. But you won't tell us what you did with it ?
Mr. Keading. No, sir.
Senator McNamara. So the inference is clearly that the testimony
previously given is true. This is the inference you are leaving with
your testimony if you leave it in this manner now. This committee
can't believe anything else. You are leaving that inference.
Mr. Reading. All right.
Senator McNamara. That you are part of this payoff. It was paid
to you for doing nothing and you in turn turned it over to somebody
else and it wound up as the previous witness stated. That is what
the two stories come out to.
Mr. Reading. It is not true, sir.
Senator McNamara. What is true ?
Mr. Reading. I don't know. I never gave Mr. Karsten or Mr.
Hoffa any money.
Senator McNamara. You heard the testimony of the previous wit-
ness.
Mr. Reading. I heard it ; but I don't even know the man.
Senator McNamara. You know he is a high official, secretary-
treasurer of perhaps your biggest member of the guild that you
represent.
Mr. Reading. I don't know anything about him, sir.
Senator McNamara. You know you heard him swear under oath he
was.
Mr. Reading. I heard him say that, but that is only hearsay. I don't
think he knows what he is talking about.
Senator McNamara. Do you think it is hearsay when he says it
under oath here ?
Mr. Reading. I don't know, sir.
Senator McNamara. It is not hearsay.
Mr. Reading. Didn't he say hearsay ?
Senator McNamara. He was speaking for himself.
Mr. Reading. Didn't he make a statement that it was hearsay ?
Senator McNamara. What did you say ?
Mr. Reading. Didn't he make a statement that it was hearsay from
Mr. Schaefer.
Senator ISIcNamara. No, he didn't make any statement that it was
hearsay that he was secretary-treasurer of Greenfield Mills Corp.
That is what I am asking you about. This is not hearsay. This is a
statement of fact. Undisputed fact. You do recognize him as a high
ranking official of this big corporation ?
Mr. Reading. I don't know him, sir.
Senator McNamara. You don't know him ?
Mr. Reading. I don't know him.
Senator McNamara. You know the Greenfield Mills Corp. ?
Mr. Reading. I never saw the man before in my life.
Senator McNamara. Do you know the Greenfield Mills Corp. ?
Mr. Reading. I know of Greenfield.
Senator McNamara. You know Greenfield at Woodward and Tem-
ple and Greenfields downtown in the David Scott Building?
Mr. Reading. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. You know they are associated with the Mills
operation in Ohio. Anybody in the restaurant business or closely
5462 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
connected with even somebody wlio is in it knows these things. You
are lying when you sit there and say you don't know it.
The Chairman. The Cliair will make as a part of the record the
transcript of the bank account in which these funds were deposited
and from which they were withdrawn. That will be made exhibit
No. 15.
(The transcript referred to was marked as "Exhibit No. 15" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 5743-5744.)
The Chairman. The Chair will also have printed in the record the
affidavit of the witness given on the 28th day of August 1957, sworn
to before Anthony S. Krolikowski. That will be made a part of the
record.
(The affidavit follows:)
I, Garrett L. Reading of 171.53 Ohio Street, Detroit, Mich., hereby makes the
following statement to Mr. Edward M. Jones and Carmine S. Bellino, whom I
know to be investigators on the staff of the Senate Select Committee on Im-
proper Activities in the Labor and Manageiuent Field. I make this statement
freely and voluntarily knovsdng that it may be used against me in a public
hearing.
I am presently employed as supervisor for Karsten's Cafeteria, located at
1550 Woodward Avenue. I have been employed in this capacity since late 1950.
Mr. Karsten, the owner of the cafeteria, is my brother-in-law and my duties
consist in being supervisor and general helper at the cafeteria. I begin my
duties around 11 a. m. in the moring and usually do not leave the place until
after 9 p. m. at night, except Monday when I leave after 10. I am so employed
6 days a week.
Sometime late in 1951 Mr. Karsten gave me the job which I hold at the
Detroit Restaurant Guild. He asked me if I would like to have a job and I
I said "Sure, I would like to have a job. I could do it in my spare time."
Later, I would say about a week later, he told me what I was supposed to do
and he told me I was supposed to go out and get new members for the guild.
At the time that he offered me the job with the guild, he told me I would re-
ceive .$50 a week. I received payment from the guild about every 2 months or so,
usually in a lump sum, around $250 or of $300. I spend proceeds of the check
that I receive from the guild for personal items. I usually cash the checks at
any bank that I might be near.
In view of the long hours that I work, I couldn't find out how I was going
to do the work of visiting the restaurants for new members. I was putting
in too much time down as Karsten's.
Although I have been paid at the rate of $.50 a week since 1951 through
the present time, I haven't had an opportunity to get around to see any
restaurant owners as yet. This includes restaurant owners who are members
of the guild as well as potential members who are in the restaurant business.
In other words, I have not visited anyone or done any work whatsoever for
the salary paid to me by the guild.
I have visited the offices of the guild at least once a year, at which time I
vv'ould have my income-tax return made out by the accountant who keeps the
books for the guild. I do not pay the accountant for his services in making
up my income-tax return.
Although I stated above that I have not contacted anyone, I dropped in this
morning at the Boujio Restaurant on the corner of John R. and Broadway,
at which time I just dropped in to say hello to Mr. Johnson. Mr. Johnson
knows that I am paid by the guild because he sees the books and my name comes
up at the meeting. I did not mention to Mr. Johnson anything to the effect that
I am connected with the guild nor anything about the current investigation
being conducted by the Senate Select Committee on Labor. I deny that I
visited anyone else or that I dropped in to see anyone and discuss witli them
the manner of my connection with the guild or the activities of the Senate
Select Committee on Labor with respect to the guild.
I also deny that I have discussed this matter in any way with Mr. Karsten
since I was first interviewed by Mr. Bellino on August 26, 1957, in room 479 of
the Federal Building.
I further deny that any moneys which I have received from the guild or any
other source have been given to Mr. Karsten to use in any manner he saw fit.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5463
I also deny that I have any knowledse of any payment to any union official
either through money paid to me by the guild or otherwise.
With respect to Mr. Karsten's visits to JMr. HolTa's office, I do not know any-
thing about that. I have never heard Mr. Karsten mention that he was going
to the Detroit Stadium. I do know that he is interested in trotting races and
that he has gone to the track.
I do not know Mr. John P. McElroy. I have never heard of Mr. McElroy.
This is the first I have heard his name mentioned.
I hereby swear that the above statement consisting of three pages is true and
correct.
[S] Garkett L. Reading.
State of Michigan,
City of Detroit:
Subscribed and sworn to before me. a notary public, this 2Sth dav of August
1957.
[S] Anthony S. Krolikowski, 2V^ofary P?/bZic.
My commission expires February 12, 1958.
The Chairman, The Chair will announce with the approval of the
committee this entire record will be turned over to both the Justice
Department and also the Internal Revenue Bureau, that is, all of the
testimony relating to this witness and his testimony.
You may stand aside. Call Mr. Karsten.
Mr. Karsten, will you be sworn.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Karsi^n. I do.
TESTIMONY OF THEODOEE R. KARSTEN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, CLARENCE A. BRADEORD
The CHAiRMAiSr. Be seated. State your name, your place of busi-
ness, your residence, and your business or occupation.
Mr. Karsten. Theodore R. Karsten, 27405 West Ten Mile Road,
Farmington Township, Mich. I am part owner of Karsteu'S Cafe-
teria and Cascade Dining Room, Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. What is your position with the guild ?
Mr. Karsten. I am one of the negotiating oflicers.
The Chairman. You are what ?
Mr. I-LvRSTEN. The negotiating committee officer.
The ( 'hairman. How many on the committee ?
Mr. Karsten. At the present time I am alone.
The Chahiman. You are the committee ?
Mr. Karsten. At this particular time ; yes, sir.
The ( ^hairman. What duties do you perform in that capacity ?
Mr. IvARSTEN. ^Vlien it comes time to negotiate with the unions, I
consult with our negotiator, a hired employee, to do the actual negotia-
tion with the union.
The Chairman. What salary do you get from the guild ?
Mr. Karsten. None, sir.
The Chairman. What salary do you give your brother-in-law ?
Mr. Karsten. The guild pays him $50 a week and $50 expense.
The Chairman. What are expenses ? What expenses does he have ?
Mr. Karsten. Drive his car and buy things at these restaurants
where he goes.
The Chairman. Buy his coffee ?
r
5464 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kj^rsten. Buy his coffee.
The Chairman. That is all he testified to.
Mr. Karsten. He may buy a steak, Senator.
The Chairman. Beg pardon ?
Mr. Karsten. He may buy a steak. They are expensive.
The Chairman. He didn't say so. He said coffee. I don't know.
I am taking his word for it. What do you you pay him this $50 a
month for ? What does he do ?
Mr. Kennedy. A week. One hundred dollars a week.
The Chairman. Fifty dollars is salary and $50 expense, as I under-
stand it. "W^iat do you pay it to him for ?
Mr. Karsten. He is confidential agent for this negotiating com-
mittee which used to consist of the three of us. Mr. Louis A. Schaefer,
now deceased, Mr. Simonson and myself.
The Chairman. Why is it he can't tell what he does ?
Mr. Karsten. Wlio are the original organizers of the guild.
The Chairman. Why can't he tell what service he performs?
There is nothing secret about it.
Mr. Karsten. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the secret ?
Mr. Karsten. The secret is that we don't want the unions to try to
tear us apart. The unions would much rather deal with us individ-
ually than as a guild.
The Chairman. That is a guild. What service does he perform ?
Mr. Karsten. He performs services for the guild. He was en-
gaged by Mr. Simonson and Mr. Schaefer. I just recommended
him.
The Chairman. The members of the guild don't even know him.
Mr. Ivarsten. They don't have to know him. The members of the
^uild operated secretly since its inception. The guild members
profit from what benefits we get ourselves or vice versa.
The Chairman. All he ever did according to his own testimony was
to go around and get a cup of coffee and talk to the waitresses.
Mr. Karsten. He has done that in a confidential nature. He re-
spects the confidence we placed in him.
The CiiAiRiyiAN. Do you know what he did with the money he can't
account for ?
Mr. Ivarsten. I have no idea what he does with his money.
The Chairman. It has been placed in a bank account. You heard
the testimony. Each 6 months he draws out about $1,850.
Mr. I^RSTEN. I know nothing about his funds.
The Chairman. Does he turn that money over to you ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
The Chairman. Has he ever turned that money over to you when
he drew it out ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did he bring it to 3^011 in a brown envelope ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you in turn take it to Jim Hoffa ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
The Chairman. You say that is not true ?
Mr. Karsten. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Is there anything further?
IMPROPER ACnVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5465
Mr, IvENNEDY. Yes. Does he make reports to you when he visits
these restaurants ?
Mr. Karsten. If there is any trouble, he does. If everything is
going along all right, it is not necessary.
Mr. Kennedy. When was the last time he made a report to you ?
Mr. Karsten. Occasionally he said he stopped by some place or
another.
Mr. Kennedy. When was the last time he told you that ?
Mr. Karsten. Six or eight months ago.
Mr. Kennedy. Eight months ago.
Mr. Karsten. Probably.
Mr. Kennedy. Eight months was the last time he made a report to
you?
Mr. Karsten. He is a liaison officer on call for the guild whenever
he is needed.
Mr. Kennedy. Six or eight months is the last time ?
Mr. Karsten. That is right. No trouble is good news. We don't
look for trouble.
Mr. Kennedy. You send him around to find out what the members
of the guild are doing ?
Mr. I^rsten. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. To spy on the members ?
Mr. Karsten. Not "spy" ; that is not the word.
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you tell them when he goes around to
the restaurants ?
Mr. Karsten. Because the negotiating committee operated exclu-
sively for the benefit of the guild. What was good for — we were mem-
bers without pay.
Mr. Kennedy. Don't get into that. Wliy didn't you tell the mem-
bers of the guild that he was going around ?
Mr. Karsten. Wliy?
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you tell the members of the guild that he
was coming around ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. He doesn't need legal advice there. It is a question
of fact. Why didn't you tell the members of the guild?
Mr. Karsten. It is not necessary.
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you ?
Mr. Karsten. For 20 years we never have.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not have him on the payroll 20 years.
Mr. Karsten. No. We had people prior to him. We had a man by
the name of John Kern prior to him.
Mr. Kennedy. You say that the people did not know about John
Kern ?
Mr. Karsten. Not necessarily.
Mr. Kennedy. They did know about John Kern ?
Mr. Karsten. That just happens. Not necessarily.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the same John Kern involved with Frank
Fitzsimmons ?
Mr. Karsten. I don't know that.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, it is. It is one and the same.
Mr. Karsten. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. What restaurant did he last make a report to you
about?
5466 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Karsten. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. You can tell the committee.
Mr. Karsten, I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. What are you paying him expenses for ?
Mr. Karsten. To go around.
Mr. Kennedy. What restaurant did he give you a report on^
Mr. Karsten. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. What restaurant has he ever given you a report on ?
Mr, Karsten. We have 21. I don't remember which ones.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell the committee one restaurant he gave a report
on.
Mr, Karsten, Johnson's,
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say on that ?
Mr. Ivarsten. Well "everything is all right."
Mr. Ivennedy. Everything is all right in Johnson's.
Mr. Karsten. That is right ; no news is good news.
Mr. Kennedy, What other restaurant did he give you a report on ?
Mr. Karsten. Greenfields.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say about them ?
Mr. Karsten. They are all right. The help are satisfied. Every-
thing is fine.
Mr. I^NNEDY. What restaurant did he give you an adverse report
on after he had talked to the witnesses and had his cup of coffee ?
Mr. KL^RSTEN. I don't know whether he had a cup of coffee or a full
meal. I don't know anything about that, sir.
Mr. I^NNEDY. That is according to his testimony.
Mr. K^^RSTEN. I see.
Mr. IvENENDY. What restaurant has he given you an adverse report
on?
Mr. Karsten. I just told you, Greenfields,
Mr. Kennedy. No; he said everything is all right in Greenfields.
Mr. KLvrsten. That is right. We haven't had any adverse report
for years.
Mr. Ivennedy. You have not?
Mr. I^RSTEN. No, sir.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Yet you pay him $50 salary and $50 expenses.
Mr. Karseen. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. According to the affidavit he made out he said he
was hired to bring in new members to the guild.
Mr. Karsten. That is erroneous.
Mr. Kennedy. That is wrong ?
Mr. Karsten, That is right. He probably got a little nervous.
You are apt to do that to a young fellow, the same as you could
to me.
Mr. Kennedy. Who conducts the negotiations ?
Mr. Karsten. A man by the name of John McElroy.
Mr. Kennedy, Who recommended John McElroy ?
Mr. Karsten. I don't know. He was recommended to the commit-
tee, and he was engaged by Mr, Simonson and me,
Mr. Kennedy. Tell the committee who recommended John
McElroy.
Mr. KzVRSTEN. I don't laiow. I do not remember.
Mr. KJENNEDY. How long has he been working for the guild ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5467
Mr. Karsten. Mr. Kennedy, Mr. McElroy is personnel manager of
the Wayne County Road Commission. Isn't that recommendation
enough ?
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know, also, his arrangement with the
teamsters ?
Mr. Karsten. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know he has received large amounts of
money from Mr. Brennan and Mr. Hoffa in the form of cash ?
Mr. Kjvrsten. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know anything about that ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wasn't it a fact that Mr. Hoffa or Mr. Brennan
reconnnended him to you ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You say they did not?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When was he hired?
Mr. Karsten. I can't tell you the exact date.
Mr. Kennedy. In the last couple of years ?
(The witiiess conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Karsten. Four years, maybe. I do not remember the date.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you happen to hire him ?
Mr. Ivarsten. He just applied for the job. Mr. Simonson knew
iibout him.
Mr. Kennedy. Who recommended him to you?
Mr. Karsten. I said I didn't know. The answer is the same as I
gave you before. I don't know.
Senator jMundt. Do you know Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Karsten. Certainly, I know Mr. Hoffa.
Senator Mundt. Do you know Mr. Brennan ?
Mr. Karsten. Yes, sir ; I do.
Senator Mundt. Did Hoffa ever come to see you ?
iMr. Karsten. No. I have been to see Mr. Hoffa.
Senator Mundt. Hoffa has never been in your restaurant?
Mr. Karsten. Yes ; I think he has been in there once or twice. I
don't recall.
Senator Mundt. Has he been in your office ?
Mr. Karsten. Yes.
Senator Mundt. He came to see you ?
Mr. Karsten. That is right.
Senator Mundt. I thought you said "No."
Mr. Karsten. You want to mix me up.
Senator Mundt. I don't want to mix you up.
Mr. Karsten. You are trying to, Senator. I want to tell the truth.
Senator Mundt. You said he never came to see you. You said "No."
Mr. Karsten. That is as a regular issue. That is what I thought
you meant. Does he come to see me regularly like any friend would.
He comes in to eat. I have a public place open to everyone to eat in.
Senator Mundt. He comes to see you on occasion.
Mr. Karsten. Once in a while. He has been up twice, I think, in
years.
Senator Mundt. You go to see him once in a while.
Mr. Karsten. Yes. Any time I am out in that section of town, 1
go to see him. If he is in, I go and see him.
5468 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES JN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. You don't negotiate with the teamsters.
Mr. IvARSTEN. No ; not at all.
Senator Mundt. What are your connections with Mr. Hoff a ?
Mr. Karsten. He is a friend of mine.
Senator Mundt. Just on a friendly basis.
Mr. Karsten. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Do you know Mr. Brennan ?
Mr. Karsten. He is a friend of mine. He owns horses the same as
I do, and we have a common interest.
Senator Mundt. Does he come to see you ?
Mr. Karsten. Yes, sir ; he comes to see me. He would like to buy
one of my horses once in a while, and I would like to sell it.
Senator Mundt. You are positive, under oath, that neither Mr.
Hoffa nor Mr. Brennan ever suggested that Mr. McElroy would be a
good man ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. What?
Mr. Karsten. I do not know that.
Senator Mundt. You don't know that ?
Mr. Karsten. I don't know that.
Senator Mundt. You don't know whether they did or not ?
Mr. Karsten. Mr. Simonson was a partner to the negotiating com-
mittee. I can't speak for Mr. Simonson. I speak for myself. He
was not recommended to me by anyone. He may have been recom-
mended to Mr. Simonson. I can't answer for him.
Senator INIundt. You helped pick him out.
Mr. Karsten. I beg pardon ?
Senator Mundt. You and Mr. Simonson picked him out.
Mr. Karsten. I agreed with Mr. Simonson, as a part of the com-
mittee.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Simonson suggested him to you ?
Mr. Karsten. He possibly did. He applied for the job, also.
Senator Mundt. It is possible, but you don't know, yes or no, wheth-
er Mr. Hoffa or Mr. Brennan, or both, might have i^ecommended him to
Mr. Simonson ?
Mr. Karsten. As far as I know, they did not.
Senator Mundt. You are not positive ?
Mr. Karsten. As far as my knowledge, they did not.
Senator Mundt. But you don't know for sure ?
Mr. Karsten. I mean it may have been through Mr. Simonson. He
may know. I can't speak for Mr. Simonson.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Simonson has never told you that they did not
recommend him ?
_ Mr. Karsten. Mr. Simonson suggested this party, and I agreed with
him, and I thought it was all right. A man with that reputation and
background, as I considered, personnel manager of the Wayne County
Road Commission, might have some ability or he could not hold that
job.
Senator Mundt. What do you suppose your brother-in-law does with
that money he wants to conceal ?
Mr. Karsten. I don't know. He may have 2 or 3 blondes. I don't
know. I can't follow him. He is younger than I am.
Senator Mundt. It is something he is afraid might incriminate him.
Mr. Karsten. That would. He would get a divorce fast.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5469
Senator Mundt. We haven't cliarged him with that.
Mr. Karsten, I mean you are asking me a question for just a curb-
stone opinion, and I am trying to give it to you, sir.
Senator Mundt. You are insinuating that is where he is spending
his money ?
Mr. Karsten. I don't know what he does. I am kidding. I am
trying to be facetious.
Senator Mundt. That is not very facetious.
Mr. Karsten. You have asked me a question that I can't answer,
and I am trying to give you one.
Senator Mundt. You are sure he did not kick any back to you ?
Mr. Karsten. Not a cent. I wish he would.
Senator Mundt. Have you ever given Mr. Hoffa any money ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. In any way, any financial transaction of any kind ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Any business transactions ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. You have had some business transactions with Mr.
Brennan.
Mr. Karsten. In a horse way ; yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. You buy horses, he sells horses ?
Mr. Karsten. No ; he tried to sell me. I never bought one from him.
I never sold him one. I am still trying.
Senator Mundt. What kind of business transactions ?
Mr. Karsten. Well, we have
Senator Mundt. Just talking about horses is not business transac-
tions.
Mr. Karsten. We fraternize, and people in the horse business do
that, especially harness horses, as we have.
Senator Mundt. Have you given him any money in the course of
that f I'aternization ?
Mr. Karsten. No ; not a thing.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, in connection with Mr. McElroy, who
conducts labor negotiations for Mr. Karsten and the guild, he has been
the recipient from Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan of a loan of $31,000.
In addition to that, he has a project going, he and another gentleman,
called the Mayberry Grant, which has received a loan of $250,000 from
tlie health and welfare fund of the teamsters.
Mr. Karsten. I never even heard of it, Mr. Kennedy. I never
heard of it.
Mr. Kennedy. He is also an arbitrator in labor negotiations. You
say you can't remember that Mr. Hoffa or Mr. Brennan recommended
him to you?
Mr. Karsten. I said he was not recommended through me. Mr.
Simon son may have.
Mr. Kennedy. He never spoke to you about his relationship with
Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan ?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He never did?
Mr. Karsten. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He never mentioned that ?
5470 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IIST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. ICarsten. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You had a strike back in 1947 ?
Mr. Karsten. 1945 or 1946.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Karsten. I don't recall the exact date.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the restaurant workers union.
Mr. Karsten. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy, '"'hat lasted for about hoAv long?
Mr. Karsten. Fifty days.
Mr. Ivennedy. And was Mr. Hoffa called in on that?
Mr. Karsten. Mr. Hoffa finally settled it at the end.
JNIr. Kennedy. He is the one who settled the strike ?
Mr. Karsten. He decided that his drivers and so forth had to go
back to work. They finally got together and we settled it.
ISIr. Kennedy. Did you appear before a grand jury in connection
with that matter ?
Mr. Karsten. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. There were allegations that you had made a pay-
ment at that time to settle the strike.
Mr. Karsit^n. I don't remember, Mr. Kennedy. I know we were
called. Mr. Schaefer and Mr. Simonson and I were called to the
grand jury.
Mr. Kennedy. That was in connection with the settling of that
strike; is that right?
ISIr. Karsten. I think it pertained to that.
Mr. Kennedy. By Mr. Hoffa.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Karsten. Honestly, Mr. Kennedy, I am trying to jog my
memory.
Mr. Kennedy. Does it jog j^our memory that there was a mention
made of a $6,000 payment ?
ISIr. Karsten. Yes, sir, there was, which I received from the guild
because I was the only one that didn't have any source of income that
was a member of the guild. They gave that to me. It is in my books
and shows that the Internal Eevenue Department wrote on the
books.
Mr. Kennedy. The alleiration was that you were — -. —
]VIr. Karsten. Judge Murphy made that allegation, which was
found not to be true.
Senator McNamara. Do I understand this $6,000 was to compen-
sate you for your loss of business during the 50-day strike?
Mr. Karsten. That is right, Senator.
Senator McISTamara. Was this a general strike that shut down all
of the members of the guild ?
IVIr. Karsten. Just the downtown section.
Senator McNamara. Not Greenfields ?
Mr. Karsten. They shut the
Senator McNamara. Not Greenfields at Woodward and Temple ?
Mr. Karsten. I don't remember Ayhether they stayed open or not.
Senator McNatmaka. That would not be considered a downtown
arP!i.
Mr. Karsten. I <"hink they Avere rlosed. too. They had their Ohio
restaurants, the Mills chaiii. Stauffers had their places in Cleveland
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5471
and various other cities. Most of the phices that were struck, even
Eeams, had places in the outlying- section. You know the country very
well. S & C had places. All the remaining members that were not
struck had other sources of revenue which we didn't have because we
have just one place.
Senator McNamara. You referred to Johnson's. Were you re-
ferring to Howard Johnson's ?
Mr. Karsten. I was referring to Johnson on Broadway. I think
his name is Johnny Johnson, or Jim.
Senator McNamara. I know where the place is.
Mr. Karsten. He has a place in the north now, lighting cigarettes
with dollar bills. We are not doing it downtown, though.
Senator McNamara. Then your testimony is that the $6,000 was
paid to you at the conclusion of this 50-day strike period ?
Mr. Karsten. Yes, sir ; for a loss of $43,000, we w^ere given $6,000.
Senator McNamara. By the guild ?
Mr. Karstex. That is right, by the guild, which was so stated at
the grand jury, and shown to be so. It was never denied.
Senator McNamara. Did the grand jury interpret that as some-
thing that was given to you as a payoff ?
Mr. Karsten. That is right.
Senator McNamara. Do you have any contracts with the team-
sters union ?
Mr. Karsten. Conference ?
Senator i\IcNAMARA. Contracts.
Mr. Karsten. No ; none at all.
Senator McNamara. You have no connections with them ?
Mr. Karsten. Not at all.
Senator McNa^mara. Your business is with the hotel restaurant
employees ?
jNIr. Karsten. That is right. The joint council which includes the
bartenders, w^aiters and waitresses, and cooks.
Senator McNamara, One contract ?
Mr. Karsten. Yes, sir. The joint council, they call it.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. You may stand aside.
The committee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(Present at the time of taking the recess: Senators McClellan,
Mundt, and McNamara.)
(Whereujjon at 5:55 p. m., a recess was taken until Thursday, Sep-
tember 26, 1957, at 10 a. m.)
r
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or IManagement Field,
Washington^ D. C.
The select committee met 10 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolution
74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the Caucus Room, Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the Select Com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator
Pat McNamara, Democrat, Michigan; Senator Karl E. Mundt, Re-
publican, South Dakota.
Also present: Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel; Carmine S. Bel-
lino, accounting consultant; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator;
Arthur Kaplan, assistant counsel, Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the committee present at convening of the session:
Senators McClellan and Mundt.)
The Chairman. The Chair would make this brief announcement.
I believe yesterday we stated that we had had Mr. Dranow examined
by physicians and found that he was not able at this time to appear
as a witness, but it would be expected that he would be able to travel
and to appear here within the next 2 weeks. We have also had an-
other witness checked, Mr. Henry Lower, who is a very important
witness, and who claimed he was too ill to attend. We find that he
is able to travel and as far as we can ascertain at this time has no
reason why he should not respond to the subpena and be here. We
shall expect him here Saturday.
Another witness, Mr. John Betante, of Detroit, since being inter-
viewed and agreeing to be here
Mr. Kennedy. No ; he did not.
The Chairman. Since being interviewed, he is another one of those
who has made himself unavailable, and we are unable to locate him.
But we are trying to find him and serve him with a subpena, and that
effort will be continued.
Mr. Counsel, do you have some matter this morning not in connec-
tion with this particular hearing?
Mr. ICennedy. I might say in connection with Mr. Betante that
we have contacted his family, and his family told us that he has left
town and they don't know where to reach him. We are making some
efforts and they have been unavailing so far.
89330— 37— pt. 14 13 5473
r
5474 IMPROPER ACTR'ITIES Ds' THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Chairman, we just have a witness here who has some docu-
ments that we want to have turned over to the committee, and that is
Mr. Cohen, who is president of 107 of Philadelphia.
Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Buddie.
The Chairman. Mr. Buddie, come around. "Will you be sworn ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole tiuth. and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. BuDDLE. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HAROLD H. BUDDLE
The Chairman. Be seated. Will you state your name, jovly place
of residence, and your business or occupation please, sir?
Mr. BuDDLE. Harold H. Buddie, Rural Eoute 3, Hagerman Lake,
Iron River, Mich., Iron County ; presently unoccupied, formerly op-
erator and owner of automobile sales and service station.
The Chairman. Automobile sales and service station I
Mr. BuDDLE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, How long since you operated it ?
Mr. BuDDLE. Two years.
The Chairman, You have been unemployed for tlie past 2 years?
Mr, BtJDDLE. That is right.
The Chairman. Mr, Buddie, are you familiar with the rules of the
committee which grant 3'ou the right to have counsel present to advise
you with respect to your legal rights while you testify '.
Mr, BuDDLE, Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you elected to waive counsel?
Mr. BuDDLE, Sir?
The Chairman. Do you waive counsel?
Mr. BuDDLE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You are willing to proceed with your testimony.
All right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You have had a place near Iron River. Mich., did
you, Mr. Buddie?
Mr. Buddle. Sir?
Mr. Kennedy. You have had a place near Iron River, Mich.?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Buddle. I have met Mr. Hoffa on four occasions.
Mr. Kennedy. He has some property near there?
Mr. Buddle. Approximately 40 miles from there.
Mr. Kennedy. And he purchased the property from you ?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you supervise some work on that property for a
while ?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That was during 1956 ?
Mr. Buddle. Yes; 1956,
Mr, Kennedy, Did Mr. Hofia send some
Mr. Buddle. Can I make another statement there?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes; please.
Mr. Buddle. I helped him establish credits and get materials. I
didn't do any supervision of buildings.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5475
Mr. KJENNEDY. But you lived near the property ?
Mr. BuDDLE. About 40 miles.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, during the summer of
1956, were there some individuals or some men up there doing some
work on Mr. Hofia's property ?
Mr. BuDDLE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have contact with those men ?
Mr. Buddle. Practically every evening.
Mr. KIennedy. They were up there from about the middle of July
or right after the Fourth of July 1956 ?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And they were up there through September 1956?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us who those men were ?
Mr. Buddle. I definitely know Mr. Bush.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Al V. Bush?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. Mr. Chuck O'Brien?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Those two gentlemen were up there?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And they were up there shortly after the Fourth of
July up through most of September ; is that right ?
Mr. Buddle. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And they were doing work around this property of
Mr. Hoffa's?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you say that you had almost daily contact with
them ?
Mr. Buddle. Evenings.
Mr. Kennedy. During the evening they would come by ?
Mr. Buddle, They made their calls and calls from Detroit came to
Mrs. Buddie during the day and evening and many times we delivered
the message during that evening.
Mr Kennedy. Do you know what type of work they were doing
up there ?
Mr. Buddle. Construction work; they were putting up 2 quonset
huts, 1 for a garage and 1 for a lounge and messhall.
Mr. Kennedy. Did other people come up there occasionally?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And do work ?
Mr. Buddle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know any of their names ?
yir. Buddle. I know ]Mr. Hoffa, Mr. Holmes, and there were several
others, but I am not too familiar with them.
Mr. Kennedy. These were the two you saw most frequently and
they were the 2 who stayed there during this some 2i/^- or 3-month
period of time ; is that right ?
Mr. Buddle. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Your answer is "yes" ?
Mr. Buddle. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
5476 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES DST THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. What was the nature of the construction? You
say it was a garage and messhall ?
Mr. BuDDLE. Yes, sir, that is right.
Senator Mundt. Was this a private home they were building there ?
Mr. BuDDLE. It was our private home, but it was not large enough
for their 20 people who hunt there.
Senator Mundt. This was a hunting lodge ?
Mr. BuDDLE. Yes, sir.
Senator Muxdt. They added to your home ?
Mr. BuDDLE. I had two places there, I had a guest cabin and our
own home, and that only accommodated about half enough places.
Senator Mundt. They were transforming your private home into a
hunting lodge ?
Mr, BuDDLE. That is right.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all. Thank you very much, Mr. Buddie,
we appreciate your help.
Mr. Bellino."
TESTIMONY OF CARMINE S. BELLINO— Resumed
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Bellino.
Mr. Bellino has been previously sworn.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Bellino, are you familiar with the names of Mr.
O'Brien and Mr. Bush?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And have you seen them on the payrolls of certain
unions ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us what you have found ?
Mr. Bellino. Charles O'Brien was on the payroll of local 876 for
the entire year of 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. That is local 876 of the retail clerks ?
Mr. Bellino. The retail clerks union.
Mr. Kennedy. And that retail clerks union has been a member of
the joint council of teamsters ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And that local has its headquarters in the Teamsters
Building in Detroit?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And it is that local that was seized by the Interna-
tional Retail Clerks about a week ago ; is that right ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And put in trusteeship ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you continue? You found Mr. O'Brien on
the payroll of that local?
Mr. Bellino. On local 876 for the entire year of 1956. Mr. Alvy
Bush was on the payroll of local 614, and he had 2 weeks' vacation
in September of 1956 and it indicates he was not paid during the
2 weeks he had vacation.
Mr. Kennedy. But during the period of July, August, and Sep-
tember of 1956, Mr. O'Brien was a paid employee of the retail clerks?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR T'lELD 5477
Mr. Belling. Mr. O'Brien was a paid employee of the retail clerks
for the whole year of 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. But, during that particular period of time, according
to the testimony of the previous witness, he was up doing some work
on Mr. Hoffa's property?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was being paid at that time by the retail
clerks; is that right?
Mr. Belling. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Bush was on the payroll of local 614 of the
teamsters ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And, according to Mr. Buddie's testimony, he was
up doing work on Mr. Hoffa's property for most of July, August,
September, and during that period of time he had 2 weeks' vacation,
but the rest of the time he was supposed to be doing his work for local
614 of the teamsters ?
Mr. Belling. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us how much Mr. O'Brien was being
paid by the retail clerks ?
(At this point. Senator McNamara entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Belling. Mr. O'Brien received in July — and I can give you
the total for July and August, approximately $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. $1,000 in July and $1,000 in August?
Mr. Belling. That includes expenses, and his salary.
Mr. Kennedy. He received expenses during that period of time?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How much expenses did he receive ?
Mr. Belling. There are expenses about $450.
Mr. Kennedy. Out of that $2,000, about $450 was expenses?
Mr. Beijlino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kknnt5py. Did he receive a similar amount in September ? That
is, $1,000?
Mr. Belling. $650, approximately, altogether in September.
Mr. Kennedy. So, he received altogether about $2,650 ?
Mr. Belling. Approximately ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How much, approximately, were expenses for Sep-
tember ; do you have that ?
Mr. Belling. $210.
Mr. Kennedy. He received about $2,650 during this 3-month period,
of which approximately $600 or $650 was expenses ; is that right ?
Mr. Bellino. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, when he was working
up on Mr. Hoffa's property ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have the figures for Mr. Bush ?
Mr. Belling. Ng, sir; the information did not actually come down
on the total amount he received, but we know he was on the payroll,
and he was being paid throughout 1956, except for 2 weeks in
September.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was a business agent, was he ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
5478 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES DST THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. As I understand this, these salaries and expenses
were paid at a time when they were working on this private project.
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do we have a record of how much time they spent
up there, working on the private project ?
Mr. Belling. From the testimony of Mr. Buddie only. It was
214 months.
The Chairman. During that period of time ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You are giving the salaries and expenses paid out
of the union to Mr. O'Brien during the time he worked on this private
project?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator McNamara. Did you find out who has title to this property ?
Mr. Belling. Hobern Corp., which is Mrs. Hoffa's. That is, Hoffa
and Brennan.
Semi tor McNamara. They are incorporated under that name?
Are they incorporated under the State of Michigan law ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. Is this a nonprofit corporation ?
Mr. Belling. I believe it is a trucking company.
Senator McNamara. Then the trucking company owns the camp,
and the combination name has been registered as Hobern ?
Mr. Belling. That is correct.
Senator McNamara. Thank you.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Bert Brennan.
The Chairman. Mr. Brennan, will you come around, please ?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Brennan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF OWEN B. BRENNAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, GEORGE S. FITZGERALD
The Chairman. State your name and your place of residence and
your business or occupation.
Mr. Brennan. Owen B. Brennan, 4181 Wilcox Road, Plymouth,
Mich., president of local 337, teamsters union, located at 2741 Trum-
bull Avenue, Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. Let the record show that Mr. Fitzgerald is appear
ing as counsel for Mr. Brennan.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair?
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Fitzgerald.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Now, the matter of Mr. Brennan and his testimony
Mr. Chairman, ties in with two other witnesses. One of them is here
this morning, and that is Mr. Frank Collins ; and Mr. James Hoffa,
who is under, let me term it, an open subpena to appear when re
quested.
The Chairman. The Chair may advise that he had intended to calj
Mr. Hoffa possibly Saturday of this week.
IJVrPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5479
Mr. Fitzgerald. Would the Chair care for me to make a statement
now with respect to all those people, because it all interlocks?
The Chairman. Let us start with Mr. Brennan, and were you going
to make some statement with reference to Mr. Brennan ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. I was, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Let us dispose of that one first and then proceed
to the others.
Mr. Fitzgerald. This interlocks with ]Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Collins.
The Chairman. You have been very nice to the committee and the
Chair will defer to you to present it.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I can't talk about Mr. Brennan without referring
also to Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Collins.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Fitzgerald. The situation with respect to Mr. Brennan is that
Mr. Brennan is at the present time under indictment in what I believe
is the southern district of New York on a charge of a violation of the
Federal communications law, a conspiracy to violate section 605 of
that law.
The Chairman. That is Mr. Brennan here ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, Mr. Owen D. Brennan, 'Sir. James Hoffa
is also a codefendant, and Mr. Vernon Spindel, who is not a union
officer or member is also a codefendant.
Now, before that particular indictment was returned by the grand
jury in New York, Mr. Brennan, Mr. Hoffa, and Mr. Collins, along
with other teamsters officials, were called as witnesses and testified be-
fore the grand jury. Yesterday an indictment was returned in the
southeastern district of New York by the grand jury charging Mr.
James Hoft'a with perjury in 5 counts, and a separate indictment
charging Mr. Frank Collins of perjury involving 12 counts.
That bears this relationship to Mr. Brennan. Mr. Brennan testi-
fied to the same subject matter as these other two gentlemen. I, as
counsel, am apprehensive that at any time Mr. Brennan might be
indicted by tluit grand jury. I have no definite reason or informa-
tion to base that statement on, except my general apprehension as a
lawyer.
Now, we have no knowledge, or I have no knowledge except what I
have read in the public press of the scope of that indictment, either
against Collins or Hoffa, or of the details involved or of the legal
significance of it. The question in my mind now is the position that
Mr. Brennan is in. I could deal with that first. I know I am taking
a little time, but I want my position on the record, if I may have the
indulgence of the Chair.
Mr. Brennan originally came down and we filed a statement which
partook of the nature of a question. Mr. Brennan in that statement
stated that he was ready and willing to testify to all matters con-
cerning the union or any branch of the union that he was familiar
with, and also ready and willing to testify with respect to his union
activities over the years. There was a qualification stated by him, and
that was that he respectfully questioned the authority of the commit-
tee to demand from him his }>ersonal records or to demand from him
testimony relating to his personal business. It was set up in that
statement that if the committee could advise him whether or not they
would recommend a contempt citation because of his failure to do that,
he wanted to know that ahead of time, because it was upon the attitude
5480 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
of the committee that he would base his testimony or his refusal to
testify here.
Now, I think under the present circumstances, Mr. Chairman, we
have had an entirely new situation develop. The testimony upon
which they predicate the indictment against Mr. Hoffa is based upon
his relationship with Bernard Spindel and what he might have said
about Spindel to another man named John Dioguardi. Now, Bren-
nan is definitely involved in that, because that relates to the same
identical subject matter upon which Mr. Brennan has been indicted
in the southeastern district of New York.
We realize, in considering all of these matters, that the public in-
terest must be first served, but we realize further that the public
interest in many instances can be best served by giving a preliminary
consideration to the rights of an}^ individual. In this particular case
we have the rights not only of Brennan, Hoffa, and Collins to con-
sider, but we have the broad general principle as to whether or not
there is any governmental interference with due process.
The case against Mr. Brennan on wiretapping is set in New York
for October 15. The executive arm of the Government is proceeding
not only to demand the trial on the 15th on the wiretapping charge,
but also is demanding arraignment of these other men on perjury
growing out of the wiretap investigation by the grand jury.
Senator Mundt. May I ask a question there? This explanation
you are making, I can see, has considerable validity with relation to
any questions we might ask about the wiretapping. I take it it would
not apply to questions we want to ask Mr. Brennan which are entire-
ly divorced from the wiretapping case ; is that right ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. No, Senator Mundt, I don't believe so. I am try-
ing to state, and I was coming perhaps a little slowly to the point I
was trying to make, and if you will bear with me, I think you will see
it is much broader than that, and my reasons are much broader.
Now, the problem we have, and the problem I know that this com-
mittee has, is to accommodate the interests of Government with the
rights and the privileges of the individual. If there was going to be
any interference with the operation of Government as symbolized by
this committee today, then I could not in anywise take the time of
this committee to state any objections to proceeding further with Mr.
Brennan or Hofl'a or Collins. But this committee is going to have,
in my judgment, and I think in the judgment of everybody concerned,
a long life. This committee is going to proceed forward daily and
monthly to perform its function, and I would be the first one to say
that that is a good thing. I cannot see why with respect to Mr.
Brennan at this particular moment that this committee could not
in all justice to him, and in all justice to itself, defer the questioning
of Mr. Brennan until such time as counsel I have had an opportunity
to properly apprise myself of tlie legal significance of the indictment
in New York now, and also to apprise myself of the details and the
scope of that particular indictment, and to learn whether or not it
could affect Mr. Brennan either directly or indirectly.
I am in this position this morning with respect to liim. I can
hardly tell him with any certainty exactly what his rights are and
make any recommendation to him not only as a friend or as a lawyer,
as to what course he should pursue before the committee. If this
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5481
questioning of Mr. Brennun is deferred, it is quite likely that Mr.
Brennan could come before this committee at a later date subsequent
to the 15th of October, when we will have a copy of these indictments
in New York, and he might be able to assist this committee and make
complete disclosures. But at the present moment, I cannot advise
him to do that in justice to myself as a lawyer, and I cannot advise
him to do that in justice to him as my client.
Now, in these things that I am saying, I think we are dealing here
with a very broad principle. In these indictments and everything
that has been happening on the eve of this convention, we have indict-
ments official from the Government, and we have subpenas from the
Government, from the legislative branch, while the executive branch
is returning indictments, and we have the AFL-CIO ethical practices
committee and the executive council of that organization giving un-
official indictments, until they are dropping around us like confetti at
a county fair. Frankly speaking, I am only one man.
Senator Mttndt. You would not suggest that the processes of law
and government desist because the convention is coming along?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Oh, no, I don't make it for that reason, and I know
that. I could not do that. *
Senator Muxdt. We don't have our hearings or our subpenas for
that reason. It just happens to coincide.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I agree with you, Senator, and that is not the point
I am making. The point I am making is this : With respect to Mr.
Brennan and Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Collins for the past 6 weeks the
committee staff has been in the city of Detroit. I was authorized by
all of those officials of the union that I have mentioned to turn over
every document and paper that we had to the committee staff. I was
also instructed without subpena to bring those people to Washington
when advised to do so by Mr. Kennedy. We did that. I think Mr.
Bellino and Mr. Kennedy could say that I have given full time to
them without compensation from the committee in producing all of
those records.
Senator Mundt. You can italicize those words "from the com-
mittee."
Mr. Fitzgerald. All right, I will get paid by somebody.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Actually, the point I am making is this. We are
in a somewhat healthy position to make this request, in my humble
judgment, because we are not in the position of people that have tried
to obstruct or tried to hide anything. We have given you everything
that we can possibly give you. Now we are merely asking that until
such time as we can properly apprise ourselves of the situation so that
we can apprise them of their rights, that the questioning be deferred.
I don't like to see any of these witnesses — and we haven't had any
so far and I have never appeared before any congressional committee
with a witness that took the fifth amendment. I don't say that with
]3ride, because I think that tlie use of the fifth amendment is justified
in a proper use, but it so happens that that is the case. For that
reason, I am going to ask the Chair and ask tlie committee to give as
careful consideration as possible to the request we are making before
you make judgment on it.
r
5482 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I think that the legal rights not only of the Government as sym-
bolized by the committee, but the legal rights and privileges of these
men who are appearing here as witnesses, should be properly equated
and should not be dealt with summarily.
The Chairman. May I ask you a question ? Is Mr. Collins here %
Mr. FiTZGEiiALD. Mr. Collins is here. Now, with respect to him,
and this will save time so that I won't repeat myself
The Chairman. If there is anything additional you wish to say with
respect to Mr. Collins and Mr. Hotfa, I suggest that you proceed now
so that we can consider it at this time.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Collins is in this position. Mr. Collins came
here fully prepared, and I say this in complete good faith, to make a
complete disclosure and answer all of the questions of the committee
or the general counsel. Mr. Collins made a com})lete statement not
imder any compulsion but he voluntarily appeared and talked to Mr.
Bellino and Mr. Kennedy for some period of time. Mr. Collins would
do the same thing here.
When this matter arose yesterday, where we find he is indicted, his
decision, or I should not say it is his decision, let me put it this way —
in all good faith it is my decision that^ don't believe that Mr. Collins
can properly testify here and I don't think that I as a lawyer can
properly advise him what he should do without knowing the situation.
With respect to Mr. Collins, there aa^s no qualification upon his
appearance here.
Now, with respect to Mr. Hoffa, when I was advised somewhat in-
formally yesterday by Mr. Kenned}^ that Mr. Hoffa might be wanted
Saturda3% I might say that we did not answer the wire of the chair-
man because I was going to appear personally here myself anyway,
and the failure to answer you was not meant as any discourtesy to
the committee or to the chairman. I thought if I was called upon,
I could have at any time made an explanation.
With respect to ]\Ir. Hoffa, when I found from Mr. Kennedy that
the committee might call IMr. Hoffa on Saturday. I explained the
position to Mr. Kennedy with respect to Mr. Hoffa. Last evening I
was able to contact Mr. Hoffa and Mr. David Previant, who is co-
coimsel with me for Mr. Hoffa in Miami. We discussed the situation.
It was decided that we would address a letter to the chairman and
state our posiiton in that letter and request the Chair and the com-
mitee to defer the questioning of Mr. Hoffa for the same reasons that
I have stated here.
As I stated, we must not only concern ourselves with the interests
of the public, but we must concern ourselves with the rights and the
privileges of the individual. I have set that all out in the letter and
the reason it is not here is because I had to write it this morning, and
I left it in the hotel for dictation, and I will have it perhaps i3efore
the morning is over.
The reasons I set up in the letter are practically what I have said
here off the cuff. This has been somewhat jumbled, and I hope you
will excuse me on it because I am talking about three people at one
time.
I think another point I would like to make with respect to this is
that a lawyer will recognize that this isn't just a simple indictment for
assault and battery or some well-defined crime. We are dealing here
with an indictment for perjury, and I think any lawyer will agree
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5483
that the law of perjury is a somewhat mercurial thing in the sense
that it involves whether or not the questions asked are material to
the matter under inquiry, and it involves whether or not the questions
asked and the answers given if considered in the full context of the
man's testimony, might or might not be perjury.
All of those things are going through my mind, and I am passing
them on to the committee in justification of the position that we are
taking here this morning.
I might say in all seriousness that in this situation I am not trying
to be dilatory. I am not trying to obstruct in any way the operation
of the committee. We know that Mr. Hoffa has testified for 4 days.
We know all the situation with the books and records. I know you
have no control over the executive branch of the Government and what
they do. We have decisions of the Supreme Court in the Watkins case
recently. We have the Delaney case which was decided some time ago,
Mr. Chairman, with respect to the question of bringing a man to trial
shortly after he has been under the spotlight of a congressional in-
vestigation.
I won't burden you with all of those things, but those things are
what are in my mind at the present time, I think there could be very
serious doubts whether or not the Government— I don't confine it to
this committee — itself is according due process in this situation. I am
not saying they are not. I am merely saying it is a serious question
which I as a lawyer would like to make up my mind about before
going any further.
So for that reason I am going to ask now that the questioning of
Mr. Brennan be deferi'ed. If the Chair or committee decided to go
ahead, then I will have to advise Mr. Brennan under the present cir-
cumstances he must exercise his privileges under the fifth amendment.
I am very reluctant to do it, but we must take that position.
With respect to Mr. Collins my position would be the same. If I
may, I would like to read now the letter — maybe I don't read it, but I
give it to the Chair.
The Chairman. You may read it. It will be a part of your
statement.
Mr. Fitzgerald. This is addressed to Hon. John McClellan. I
might say it is a good thing that I wrote this letter before I got to
thinking about it, or it would have been 4 pages instead of this 1. It
is much more concise than what I have said this morning.
The Chairman. I think possibly Avhat you have said has imple-
mented the letter.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes, sir. This is addressed to Hon. John McClel-
lan, chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Labor, Senate Office
Building, Washington, D. C.
Dear Senator : Yesterday after a brief discussion with Mr. Robert Kennedy,
chief counsel for the committee, I telephoned Mr. James Hoffa and Mr. David
Previant, who has acted with me as counsel for IMr. Hoffa. Both gentlemen are
presently in Miami, Fla. Because of recent developments, particularly the
indictment returned by a Federal grand jury against Mr. Hoffa in New York
City, and the fact that Mr. Hoffa is under what might be termed an open subpena
from the committee, Mr. Previant and myself thought the situation should be
reappraised. As attorneys for :Mr. Hoffa, we fully realize that the public interest
must be served, but we are also mindful of the fact that in many instances the
public interest can be best served by a primary consideration for the rights and
privileges of the individual.
5484 EMPROPER ACTI\'ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Considering Mr. Hoffa personally, we know you are aware that he has already
appeared before the committee and testified for 4 days, that he has cooperated
in making his personal records and all union records under his control available
to the committee. That as his attorneys we have been given full authority by
him to assist the committee in every reasonable manner possible. We believe
the record shows that we have fully cooperated in the production of records and
witnesses even without subpena.
Mr. Previant and myself now feel that a proper consideration of Mr. Hoffa's
present legal position requires that any further questioning of our client be
deferred by the committee until we as his counsel have sufficient opportunity
to acquaint ourselves with the scope and details of the recent indictment. After
we have had such opportunity, we shall be pleased to contact you or await word
from you at your convenience. Acting, therefore, in behalf of Mr. HofEa, we
respectfully ask that if he is to be recalled, a date be subsequent to October 15,
1957, because on that day he will be arraigned in New York City on the perjury
indictment.
With best personal wishes.
Very truly yours,
Mr. George S. Fitzgerald.
The CiiALRMAN. Mr. Fitz<^erald, is the 15th the date he will be
arraigned on this new indictment ?
Mr. FiTzcjERALD. Yes, Mr. Cliairman.
Tlie Chairman. That is the date set for the arraignment on the new
indictment I
Mr. FiTZ(iERALD. That is right. That incidentally is the date set in
the other case also.
The Chairman. Both cases?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Fitzgerald, would the timetable that you sug-
gest in your request, if accepted, indicate that shortly after October
15 these three men would be available to testify, or does this mean that
the trial goes on for weeks or months?
Mr. Fitzgerald. No. Maybe I have misled you.
Senator Mundt. I am thinking in terms of a time when it might
be possible to hear them, assummg we go along with your request.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Let me estimate this. In the first place, the ar-
raignment in New York on the recent indictment — the perjury in-
dictment — takes place on October 15. At that time, no time would
be taken with that particular matter outside of his appearance in the
court and the entering of the plea of guilty or not guilty. By that
time certainly we know exactly what his legal rights and situation
would be under that indictment.
Senator Mundt. Do I understand that by that time you will be
able to stake out those areas where we might be able to ask questions
and those areas where we should avoid asking questions because they
are involved in the indictment ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is true. Now, we have this other considera-
tion. On the 15th of October the wiretap case — I call it the wiretap
case — or the conspiracy to violate section 605 of the Communications
Act — has been set for trial. I have tried to contact Mr. Sal Gobe,
who is the attorney representing Mr. Hoffa in New York on that
matter, to find out what the position of the district attorney is on
that. I can hardly conceive of him arraigning a man on a perjury
indictment on the same date that they start a trial in another case.
That case is actually set for trial.
The Chairman. Is the communications case set for trial on Octo-
ber 15 ?
EMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE L.\BOR FIELD 5485
Mr. Fitzgerald. On October 15.
The Chairman. You do not anticipate actually going to trial?
Mr. Fitzgerald. All I know is that the court has set the date down.
From a practical standpoint I, as a lawyer, state I can't see how they
are going to arraign a man on another case one day and go on trial
that date. Actually as far as the record is concerned, they could.
They wanted motions filed in that case, Mr. Chairman, prior to
October 3 or 4. If that case is tried — when Senator Mundt talked of
a timetable — I think the case would perhaps take not over a week or
10 days to trA^ Ten days at the outside, perhaps less.
The Chairman. As to Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Collins, I can appreciate
that there is somewhat of a difficult situation by reason of this new
indictment.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt? I am sorry.
Mr. Brennan calls my attention to this. So that you will know as far
as timetable is concerned, we are filing a motion in New York mider
the ruling of, I think, the circuit court of appeals decision in the
Delaney case that the conspiracy to violate the Federal Communica-
tions Act provisions be adjourned for a considerable length of time
on the grounds that Mr. Hoffa or neither Mr. Hoffa nor any of the
defendants could in the light of all this publicity in the present cli-
mate receive a fair and impartial trial. If that motion is granted,
tliat case would be set over for some period of time, and we would
have no problem right after the 15th of October.
I am sorry to interrupt but I wanted you to know that.
The Chairman. I^t me say this. As to Mr. Hofi'a and Mr. Collins,
this new indictment— I have no information as to what the charges
are other than general information that it is_xjerjury — I assume re-
lates to perjury committed before the grand jury in New York. Is
that correct '.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Tlie Chairman. I do not know the full scope of that grand jury
inquiry otlier than as a result, I think, the first indictment for con-
spiracy to violate the Federal Communications Act would result.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I add this for your information which I
think Avould help. I do this not to intrude, but to be helpful.
The grand jury in New York went beyond merely the investigation
as to whether or not there was a violation of the Federal Communica-
tions Act. The ^rand jury in New York subpenaed all the records of
local 299, financial and otherwise. The original records were fur-
nished to them within 48 hours after they called upon us to produce
them. So that the scope of the inquiry in New York before that
gi-and jury — and I base my belief upon the duces tecum subpena — •
covers the entire activity of local 299 of the teamsters union from
1958 up to the present time. They have all the records. So that
must be the entire scope of their inquiry, and that goes into all the
union activities, which would necessarily be the same subject matter
that this committee would concern itself Avith also.
The Chairman. The Chair would say that when Mr. Hoffa ap-
peared here recently as a witness, we did undertake to avoid going
into any activity or any evidence relating to what we understood to
be the subject matter of the indictment on the Communications Act.
We did proceed with other subject matters that we thought were un-
5486 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
related to the charges in that particular indictment. I do not know —
I cannot know at this moment — what this last indictment may con-
tain in support of the allegation of how perjury was committed.
Until the Chair knew that it would be very difficult for us to deter-
mine how to question Mr. Hoffa or Mr. Collins if they were before us
as witnesses. I can appreciate that. There is considerable merit in
what you say with respect to Mr. Collins and Mr. Hoifa. I am not
passing on it at the moment. I want to have a conference with other
members of the committee, but we get back now to Mr. Brennan. He
is not under indictment ; am I correct ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. He is under indictment on the wiretray conspiracy
charge. He is not under indictment for perjury : no.
The Chairman. I understand as to the wiretapping, but we have
disposed of that. We have set precedent on that. We proceeded.
We naturally wanted to accord the same consideration to Mr. Bren-
nan as to the M'iretapping case as we did to Mr. Hoffa, but we would
be justified after having established that precedent, which I think is
right, in not according Mr. Brennan any greater privilege or immu-
nity than we accorded to Mr. Hoffa. Therefore, on that wiretapping
case, I don't feel that we would be justified in excusing Mr. Brennan
from testifying with respect to other matters.
Counsel states that he anticipates — that may be too strong a word,
but there is some reason to believe from your view point — that he may
yet be indicted in connection with these perjury charges or the testi-
mony he gave before the grand jury. This presents a situation that
is a little awkward, but just from a practical viewpoint if we set a
precedent here, are we excusing a witness from testifying because he
says he may some day be indicted on the issue. I don't know that we
would get very far on these hearings. I am trying to rationalize this
thing. You have a little more justification than a fellow who just
came in and said, "I may be indicted someday. I don't want to
testify." But we do have this, that others who testified regarding the
same subject matter have been indicted on perjury.
I don't like someone to take the fifth amendment as a matter of pro-
tection if there is reason to believe that they have information and
would tell the truth if they were free to do so. I agree with you, what
you said about the fifth amendment. I think it is an instrumentality
of law that is a basic right that should be respected when it is in good
faith invoked. Wlien it is used capriciously, I have no respect for it,
but contempt. It presents a very difficult problem here. I tliink
maybe we better take about a 5-minute recess.
Are there other questions you gentlemen wish to ask ?
Senator Mundt. Before we recess, I would like to ask a question.
One thing Mr. Fitzgerald said disturbs me. He said he was going
to petition the court to delay the trial for a considerable amount of
time because he felt that, with the investigation on, such a climate is
being created that he does not think his clients could get a fair trial.
What disturbs me is, if you are not going to have a trial while the
investigation is on, and we can't have the investigation while the trial
is pending, how do we break this Gordian knot ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Senator Mundt, if I may answer that, the reason
I told you that I wanted to make a complete disclosure to yoi^ was
No. 1, 1 didn't want to say that the trial is on and not disclose the fact
why we are asking for a delay.
liVrPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5487
Senator Mundt, We have to start some place. If the trial can't
proceed while the committee is in session and the committee cannot
operate while the trial is spending, we get stuck on "High Street" and
can't get off.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Of course, the Government can always get off.
Sometimes the individual can't get off. I appreciate what you mean.
However, here is the situation. Let us say it is nobody's fault that
either the Government as symbolized by the United States attorney's
office in New York, or the Government as symbolized by the court or
the Government as symbolized by this committee, that a person could
not receive a fair trial. The test is not who is to blame for it, as I
see it as a lawyer. It is merely a question that the court covered very
clearly in this Delaney case, and I think it was the circuit court that
covers the State of Massachusetts, and said in that case that regard-
less of who is to blame, even if nobody is to blame, that the defendants
were within their rights in submitting to the court the question as
to whether or not the climate was such that a person's rights to a fair
and impartial trial might be affected, and the court in the Delaney case
held very definitely that because of the fact that he had been under
the searchlight of a congressional inquiry — not that he should not
be tried at all — but merely, to assure him of a fair trial, that the case
should be adjourned for a considerable length of time. In other words,
I don't say that any branch of the Government should stop while
another is operating, or that one should be used as a check upon the
other.
Senator Mundt. No ; but you imply that neither branch can start.
Mr. Fitzgerald. No.
Senator Mundt. You don't want us to start until the trial has been
held, and you don't want the trial to be held until we stop. We can't
stop because we have to continue our work. I am trying to get the
train back on the track.
Mr. Fitzgerald. No; here is the situation. If I was saying that
everybody should go home and stop, I would be wrong. The only
delay that this committee would experience would be the matter of
30 days.
Senator Mundt. That is what I am trying to find out, the time-
table.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Quite apart from what the court does with your
plea to delay the trial, you feel that these gentlemen would be ready
to testify substantially around the 1st of November ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Absolutely. I was not asking for any unreason-
able delay. As a matter of fact, if the case is delayed they would be
ready right after the 15th of October to come in and make their posi-
tion one way or another. It would depend upon all the other circum-
stances. I say all things being equal, even if the case proceeds in
New York, the only thing we are asking this committee for is that
they defer the questioning on these 3 people for a period of, say, 30
days. That is all. I don't think that is mireasonable.
Se-nator Mundt. The extent of your request to us that we are to
consider during our little recess conference is substantially a delay
of 30 days.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That would be right; yes. The only addition to
that would be if the case started on the 15th of October and it took
5488 IMPROPER ACTR^TIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
10 court days, it might run a little better than the 30 court days, but
no more.
The Chairman. Before we recess — I was thinking vce might recess
until 1 : 30 and come back at that time — the Chair would like to ob-
serve, or, rather, I will announce, first, that the committee is going
to have a conference and weigh this thing very, very carefully. I
know, under the stress of what I might term aggravation, sometimes
we might make decisions that appear to be harsh at the time. This
committee will never be perfect. We are just human beings. We
want to observe all proprieties and rules of fairness. We also want
to guard against any imposition that might be attempted, and I am
certainly not, in this instance, implying any, because I say to you
again, Mr. Fitzgerald, you have been very cooperative with the com-
mittee and we have found it a pleasure to work with you.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you.
The Chairman. I say that for you. I have once or twice tried to
practice law, and I know sometimes counsel may be a man of great
integrity and stature, but all of us, as lawyers, sometimes have pos-
sibly represented clients that did not measure up in every respect. I
am not implying, again, in this instance. We have to guard against
it-
Maybe this is a little premature. I have not made a final decision,
but I do want to say that if the committee decides to defer hearing Mr.
Hoffa at tliis time, or Mr. Collins or Mr. Brennan, and particularly
with respect to Mr. Hoffa, whom I had invited to be present if he de-
sider, and to stand by for the possibility that the committee would
require his presence, we are in the process of developing and pre-
senting testimony here that same may regard, at least, and there are
times when I so regard it, as rather derogatory testimony to Mr.
Hoffa, and, certainly, in view of his position, with which we are all
familiar, I would not want such testimony to be produced and then
deny him the right to refute it at any time he might desire to do so.
So, that invitation still stands, and the opportunity will be made
available to him if at any time during further hearingly now he
should desire to appear and refute any testimony. My greatest con-
cern at the moment is regarding Mr. Brennan. I believe it would
be wise for us to take a little recess and come back at 1 : 45.
The committee w^ill stand in recess until 1 :45.
(Present at the time of taking the recess: Senators McClellan,
Mundt, and McNamara.)
(Thereupon, at 11 : 50 a. m., a recess was taken until 1 : 45 p. m., the
same day. )
afternoon session
(Members of the committee present at start of the afternoon session :
Senators McClellan and McNamara.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Brennan, come around, please.
TESTIMONY OF OWEN B. BRENNAN, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, GEORGE S. FITZGERALD— Resumed
The Chairman. During the recess hour, the committee held a con-
ference, and, although we reluctantly do it, because we would like to get
IMPROPER ACTR'ITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5489
along with our work, in view of the peculiar circumstances that
prevail as have been related here this morning, and in view of the
request made by counsel for the three witnesses, Mr. Brennan, Mr.
Hoffa, and Mr. Collins, we have weighed very carefully, and, as I
say, reluctantly, and are going to accede to and grant the request inso-
far as it applies to Mr. Collins and Mr. Hoffa; that is, to defer the
taking of their testimony. I say this week, at this particular series of
hearings. We will not undertake to set any date now for their ap-
pearance before the committee, but I reiterate that the invitation
{previously extended to the witnesses to be present to hear this tes-
timony and to testify in refutation of any of it that they felt was
inaccurate or not correct or untruthful, that invitation is not with-
drawn, but it is continued.
(Senator Mundt entered the room.)
The Chairman. We are having problems because of the illness
of witnesses and because some of them have made themselves un-
available. This indictment, of course, is not the responsibility of the
committee. We had nothing to do with the indictment that has in-
terceded liere to bring about a situation that causes us to make this
deferment. But this committee is going to plow through. Let no one
get any impression that these handicaps will not be overcome. They
will.
Now, as to Mr. Brennan, after conference, we find we have a great
many things that Mr. Brennan can be very helpful on. I would like
for counsel to enumerate some of them briefly. As to interrogating
him about anything related to the prospective indictment, may I say,
and the indictment as against Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Collins, we will un-
dertake to stav clear of it insofar as we have any information as to
what might be involved in it. But Mr. Brennn does have a great deal
of information that he can give this committee that will be very help-
ful which, I am sure, is in no way related to the problems of the indict-
ment pending and contemplated.
So, Mr. Counsel, will you give us a little briefing on those matters
that we are confident are wholly without the scope of the indictment.
1 think it would be well to do so for the record at this time.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I merely say, Mr. Chairman, that we appre-
ciate the consideration and courtesy of the committee.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Fitzgerald.
Mr. Kekxedt. Mr. Chairman, during this hearing and during prior
hearings we have been extremely interested in the source of cash of
Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan. We have pursued that matter through
a number of different witnesses. Mr. Hoffa testified that during a
period of several years that Mr. Brennan had a system whereby he
wagei-ed money on horses, and this resulted in cash income to Mr.
Brennan and Mr. Hoffa of between $5,000 and $10,000 every year.
We requested in Detroit that Mr. Brennan turn over any books or
records that he had that could verify this winning of this $5,000 or
$10,000 in cash every year. We requested that of Mr. Brennan because
Mr. Hoffa stated that Mr. Brennan was the one that operated this.
That would be No. 1 on our list of things that we would like to get
from Mr. Brennan and which could not possibly have anything to do
with the indictment or the investigation of Mr. Brennan in New York
City, by the grand jury.
89330—57 — pt. 14 14
5490 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Would you turn over those books and records tliat show that you
received in cash — you and Mr. Hoffa — between $5,000 and $10,000
every year through this system, Mr, Brennan ?
Mr, Brennan. Did you say Would I ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Five and ten thousand dollars apiece in cash.
Mr. Brennan. On advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at this
time to answer and under the lifth amendment of the United States
Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You refuse to turn over any documents that you have
on that matter ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Mr. Brennan, you understand the interest of the
committee in this matter. Based on testimony that we have had, the
circumstances that have come to light, there is some reason, if not
justification, for believing that this income was derived from other
sources rather than from the racetrack and gambling on horses, and
thus the committee's interest is in the source of it other than the
horseracing track. As to your making a bet and winning a thousand
dollars on a horse, the committee has no interest in it. If you are re-
porting income, however, from that source, when in fact the income
is from some other source, it may be from a source that would be very
helpful to this committee in developing a pattern of practices that
are being engaged in to the detriment of organized labor and also of
the public. So therefore your testimony is required and we will
appreciate j^our cooperation.
Mr. Brennan. May I consult with Mr. Fitzgerald, please ?
The Chairman. Yes ; you may.
(The witne^ss conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Brennan. At this time, at some later time, rather, I may be
able to testify to these matters, and on the advice of counsel I respect-
fully decline at this time to answer and under the fifth amendment
to the United States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a
witness against myself. Also under the fourth amendment to the
United States Constitution I decline to produce any records at this
time.
The Chairman. Do you have such records ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United States
Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. All right, jNIr. Counsel ; proceed. There is another
matter in which in a moment I wish to interrogate the witness,
Mr. Kennedy. You have other books and records of your own fi-
nances, Mr. Brennan. Will you turn over any of those books and
records to us? You are a subject of some importance to us because
of your close relationship to Mr. HofFa. You operate local 337 in
Detroit, and that you liad a number of business transactions involving-
Mr. HofiPa. We would like to have all the books and records in vour
IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5491
possession in addition to the ones in connection with your gambling
winnings or so-called gambling winnings.
Mr. Brennan. May I speak to Mr. Fitzgerald?
The Chairman. Yes.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Brennan. At some later date I may turn over to the committee
the records that I have in my possession. At this time on the advice
of counsel I respectfully decline at this time to answer and under the
fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I assert my priv-
ilege not to be a witness against myself. Also under the fourth amend-
ment to the United States Constitution I decline to produce any
records at this time.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you give us any assurance, Mr. Brennan, that
you will turn over those documents to us within, say, the next year?
Mr. liRENNAN. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline to
answer, and under the fifth amendment to the United States Constitu-
tion I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself. Also,
under the fourth amendment of the United States Constitution I
decline to produce any records at this time.
Senator Mundt. Let me put the question to you this way, Mr.
Brennan. With regard to the colloquy we had with your counsel this
morning, will you assure the connnittee now that you will turn over
these requested books and records just as soon as any court case
involving you growing out of the grand jury situation in New York
has been terminated?
Mr. Brennan. May I speak to my counsel, please?
The Chairman. Yes.
(The witness conferred with his comisel.)
Mr. Brennan. At a future date
Senator Mundt. I will set the date. I am not talking about some
ambiguous future date. I have specified and pinpointed the date and
asked you a direct question, Mr. Brennan.
Mr. Brennan. I am going to be guided by the advice of my counsel,
Mr. Senator.
Senator Mundt. You may be guided by the advice of your counsel
as far as I am concerned, but I want you to answer my question.
Mr. Brennan. Now and in the future.
Senator Mundt. I want you to answer my question.
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of comisel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer, and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself, and under the fourth amendment to the United States Con-
stitution I decline to produce any records at this time.
Senator Mundt. Then, Mr. Chairman, I request that you order the
witness to produce them, because this is obviously a dodge.
The Chairman. The dodge is based on his constitutional right to
produce at any time.
Senator Mundt. He wants to withhold pertinent information upon
which our investigation is based.
The Chairman. These are his personal records. I believe our ruling
is, and it is correct, that personal records are in a sense evidence of the
witness requiring liim to produce testimony against himself. I am
treating it from strictly a legal aspect now. What the witness says
r
5492 IMPROPER ACTR'ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
lie may someday decide to do it or may someday decide not to take
the fifth amendment is just a gratuity. We do not know whether he
will or won't. But he does have a right to take the fifth amendment
and say "I will not produce my personal books and records." If I
thought otherwise, I would immediately order him to do so and then
proceed in a proper manner if he did not.
I wish to add this : Any record in his possession where he is occupy-
ing a capacity of trusteeship or fiduciary capacity — in other words, any
books or records of the union or a corporation or something like that —
he cannot refuse to produce.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I say with respect to Mr. Brennan's local 337,
I don't know if Senator Mundt is aware that all of the documents and
records, financial and otherwise, of local 337 have been submitted to
the staff and have been the subject of complete investigation.
The Chairman. I believe we have all of tlie records of local 337.
I think they have been made available. Am I right ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
The Chairman. They have been made available. The only ques-
tion I am sustaining here is that if you ask a witness a question and
he takes the position that he desires to exercise his privilege under the
fifth amendment he may do so. That applies to his personal records
that he has kept. "We are not always happy when a witness does that.
Mr. Brennan. Mr. Senator, I would like to say to 3^011 that these
are my own personal records that I think the counsel is talking about,
and that is what I am talking about.
The Chairman. We are talking about your personal records.
Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Where you keep accounts, from which you make
your income-tax returns, where you show your income and where
you show your outgo and expenses, we are talking about those expenses.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I say one other thing so that the committee is
apprised of something ? Mr. Brennan's income-tax returns have been
turned over to the staff'.
The Chairiman. Yes, we have them. We can get that, but we have
that anyway.
Mr. Fitzgerald. That is right.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. The great importance of the j^ersonal books and
records of Mr. Brennan is in the fact that one of the people we are
particularly interested in at this time is Mr. Hoffa. You have had so
many financial relationships with Mr. Hoffa that not only would they
be of interest to us because of your own position as president of local
337 of the teamsters, but also because of your financial arrangements
with Mr. Hoffa. I spoke of the fact that you handled the money in
the racing. If you gave us your books and records on this so-called
racing arrangements where you could make between $10,000 and
$20,000 in cash every year and split it between you and Mr. Hoffa,
that might throw some light on this whole matter, and you refuse to
turn those over.
Can you tell us about the arrangements that you had as far as Jimmy
James was concerned, the money that 3^011 and Mr. Hoffa turned over
to Mr. Jimmy James, supposedly, and then he put j'our wives on the
payroll of the local in their maiden names ? Can vou tell us anything
about that?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5493
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer, and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You had another company called the J. & H. Sales
Co., which ultimately took the name of the National Equipment Co.
That was a trucking company operating in Detroit. You and Mr.
Hoffa once again were interested in that. Can you tell us anything
about that?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you tell us how that company was set up, the
National Equipment Co., J. & H. Sales Co.? Can you tell us how
those companies were set up and what arrangements you had with
Carnie Mathieson and Mr. William Bridge and Mr. John Bridge in
connection with those companies?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel. I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Mr. Bridge was a large trucker in Michigan. Mr.
Carnie Mathieson is a trucker himself and the attorney that conducts
the negotiations with the teamsters for the various truckers in Michi-
gan. Can you tell us w^hat financial arrangements you had with them
in connection with these two companies ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. At the time you sold National Equipment Co.,
you sold it to Mr. William Bridge, and you sold it for $10,000, you
and Mr. Hoffa. Our review of the records of National Equipment
Co. show that it was worth minus $6,.500 at that time. Could you
tell us why Mr. Bridge would be willing to pay you $10,000 for a
company that is worth minus $6,500 ?
Mr, Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Going back to Jimmy James, can you tell us why
he put your wife on the payroll of that juke box local for a period
of years and put your wife on in her maiden name? Can you tell
us anything about that? He paid her $100 a week although she did
no services for that local.
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Let me suggest to the witness that when we en-
counter the problem such as you are presenting when this informa-
tion is possibly, as indicated, within the knowledge of others, if we
can't get the information from you, if we can't get the testimony
5494 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
regarding what the facts are from you, this committee may find it
has no other alternative except to subpena and interrogate the other
parties to the transaction. I don't want to have to do that. I think
you husbands ouglit to be able to tell what transactions are. You are
familiar with them. I don't think this committee wants to, I hope
it never has to, subpena wives in here and ask them about it. But
I most respectfully^ ask that you consider the advisability of giving
testimony where you can do it without incriminating yourself. If
you cannot do it without incriminating yourself, of course, that is
your judgment and your counsel, and that is your privilege to invoke
the fifth amendment.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Fitzgerald. With respect to the J. and H. Sales and National
Equipment Co., all of the records of those companies have been made
available to the staff, and they have had them.
The Chairman. I understand. It is on the basis of those records
that we are predicating the questions, because the records reflect this
information and it needs some explanation. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Going on to another trucking company, in which
you had an interest, that is Test Fleet, according to Mr. Hoffa's testi-
mony before this committee. Test Fleet was set up after Commercial
Carriers, Mr. Bert Beveridge was having difficulty up in Michigan in
connection with a teamsters local in Flint. Subsequently he said, Mr.
Brennan had conversation with Mr. Bert Beveridge in which it was
decided to set up a company' in which your wife in her maiden name
and Mr. Hoffa's wife in her maiden name would own the stock. Could
you tell us about what conversations you had with Mr. Bert Beveridge,
a major trucker in Michigan, about setting up that company?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment of the United
States Constitution assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. That company was set up in Tennessee. It was first
set up in the name of Mr. Wrape down in Tennessee, who is the at-
torney for Commercial Carriers. The stock was then transferred to
your wife's maiden name and Mrs. Hoffa's maiden name. Can you
tell us why you handled the transaction in that manner ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment of the United
States Constitution assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it true that you have never done any work in
connection with that, that the accountant that was to handle the books
was the accountant for Commercial Carriers, that he works in the
office of the Commercial Carriers, that it was just a paper transaction
as far as you and Mr. Hoffa were concerned, and that since the time
that company has been set up, you and Mr. Hoffa have split $125,000?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline to
answer and under the fifth amendment to the United States Constitu-
tion assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy, It is a paper transaction, is it not, because your profits
will be dependent on the amount of business that the Commercial
Carriers will give you each month. If they decide to give you the
IMPROPER ACTR'ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELb 5495
business, then you will make money. If they decide not to give you the
business, then you will not make money. Isn't that correct?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it true that the teamsters have contracts with
Commercial Carriers?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at this
time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United States
Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You never saw anything improper in that at all, did
you, Mr. Brennan ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer, and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Senator ISIundt. Mr. Brennan, you are ruining Mr. Fitzgerald's
batting average. He said with some emphasis this morning that no
witness of his before a committee had ever taken the fifth amend-
ment. Ted "Williams of the Lawyers' League is slipping a little. Can
you be a little more responsive ?
( No response. )
Mr. Kennedy. In addition to that we understand you went into
business with Mr. Hoffa in connection with the Northwestern Oil
Co. Could you tell us about that ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer, and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. For the purpose of these investments, how much
union funds were used ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the LTnited
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. If you did not use any union funds, do you think
an answei' would incriminate you, a truthful answer ?
]Mr. Brennan. I honestly believe that if I am forced to answer the
question I will be compelled to be a witness against myself in viola-
tion of my privileges under the fifth amendment to the United States
Constitution.
The Chairman. All right, proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, in connection with the Northwestern
Oil, the investment was made by Mr. Brennan and Mr. Hoffa and
Mr. Allan Dorfman and Mrs. Rose Dorfman, who is Paul Dorfman's
wife.
Could you tell us if the Dorfmans are the ones that have the broker-
age on the insurance that comes out of the Central Conference of
Teamsters? Could you tell us what financial arrangements you made
with the Dorfmans prior to investing in Northwest Oil?
JNIr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
5496 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IjST THE LABOR FIELD
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately the same arrangement as far as per-
sonnel was concerned was true in the Jewel properties ? You were in
that again with the Dorfmans and Mr. Hoffa.
Would you tell us about that ?
Mr. Brennan. On the. advice of counsel I respectfully decline at this
time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United States
Constitution, I assert my privileges not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us how you and Mr. Hoffa happened
to invest in the Columbus Trotting Association ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the Constitu-
tion of the United States, assert my privilege not to be a witness
against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee how the teamsters
union happened to purchase Paul "the waiter" Ricca's home?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to
answer and under the fifth amendment to the United States Con-
stitution. I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. John P. McElroy ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully declare at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know that he worked for the Restaurant
Guild as the labor negotiator ?
Mr. Brennan, On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to
answer at this time and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee how much money has
been advanced by the teamsters union to McElroy and Mr. James P.
Hannon in connection with the Mayberry Grant Clinic ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't you, prior to the time the teamsters invested
some $250,000 in that project, didn't you and Mr. Hoffa advance to
these two gentlemen $31,000 in cash?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline
at this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Did that money come out of union funds ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
mvself.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee why you would ad-
vance Mr. McElroy and Mr. Hannon $31,000 in cash, you and Mr.
Hoffa, actually having a financial interest in the Mayberry Grant?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5497
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hannon has been paid some money by the team-
sters, has he not ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. McElroy has also done some work for the
teamsters ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it true that neither Mr. McElroy nor Mr. Han-
non invested any of their own money in the Mayberry Grant Sani-
tarium ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
'Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have a large number of financial
transactions of local 337 that we wish to question Mr. Brennan about.
The Chairman. Wlio is Mr. D-u-b-a-c-h, Marshall ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. Mr. Dubach is a business agent of the teamsters.
The Chairman. I was asking the w^itness.
( The witness conferred Avith his counsel. )
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel
The Chairman. I spelled it.
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Chairman. You are president of local 337, I believe you said.
You have already said that. Am I correct ?
(No response.)
The Chairman. I note here that Mr. John P. McElroy submitted a
bill to the business agent of local 337, Marshall Dubach, in the amount
of $125, dated June 30, 1953, services and expenses in investigating
Local 337. Teamsters, and Kroger Co.
Were you president of the local at that time ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution. I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. I believe we have the information that you are
or were president at that time unless you want to deny it. I will
proceed on that basis. Do you wish to examine this statement I have
iust referred to and see if vou identif v it and give us some explanation
ot it (
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I will say what we understand the
$125 was for. Mr. McElroy was an arbitrator and worked in a num-
5498 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ber of different cases for the teamsters union. This was $125 that
was paid to him, as we understand it, to act as an arbitrator between
the Kroc:er Co. and the locaL
The sio;nificance is that subsequently he became the labor repre-
sentative of the restaurant gfuild which we discussed yesterday and
while he has held that position he received these large amounts of
money, and he and Mr. Hannon received these large amounts of money
from the teamsters union to set up this sanitarium in Detroit.
In addition to receiving the money from the teamsters union, they
received $31,000 in cash from Mr. Brennan and Mr. Hoffa, according
to our records.
They did not, according to our records, invest any money of their
own in this sanitarium. We would like to get, if we could, an ex-
planation from Mr. Brennan of the whole transaction.
The CiiAiRiNrAN. Let me see if I understand it.
They got $81,000 in cash from Mr. Brennan and Mr. Hoffa?
Mr, Kennedy. In currency.
The Chairman. To start a business ?
Mr. Kennedy, That is correct.
The Chairman. While at the same time he was employed in a
capacity that would amoinit to a conflict of interest, which has a
bearing on the negotiations for the restaurant guild.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, also to get that money Mr. Hoffa had to go
and borrow the money from the accountant, Mr. Grosberg, according
again, to our investigation, of the local, who in turn went to his uncle
who was a chief owner and primary officer in one of the biggest
grocery stores in Detroit, the ACF Wrigley Co., so that the whole
transaction needs an explanation.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Could you give it to us, Mr. Brennan?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer, and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Also, Mr. Hannon received money from the local.
The Chairman. I see one item here according to the photostatic
copy of an invoice, or statement of account, an item of $2,000, sub-
mitted by James Hannon.
It says :
Retainei* for legal research in formulatiou of legislative program, $2,000 —
submitted June 8, 1954.
Do you know anything about that ?
Mr. Brennan, On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have here another bill paid by
the teamsters for William Freedman. It says :
Washington expenses per Bert Brennan.
The total is $200. I would like to have an explanation of what that
is for.
The Chairman. This one I am going to have you present to the
witness and state that he examined it and see if he identifies it.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5499
Mr. Brennan. Oh the advice of counsel
The Chairman. Have you examined the document ?
Mr. Brennan. Yes, sir. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully
decline at this time to answer and, under the fifth amendment to the
United States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness
against myself.
The Chairman. This document may be made exhibit No. 16.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 16" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5745.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, according to the information that
we have, there was a columnist who was going to write an article about
Mr. Brennan which Mr. Brennan didn't like, and he made arrange-
ments for Mr. William Freedman to come to Washington to talk
things over with the columnist.
Subsequently, the article has not been written. The $200 was a fee
to Mr. Freedman for making that trip and for his expenses of coming
to talk to the columnist. Is that correct'? It was paid out by the
union.
The Chairman. Paid out of union funds ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Mr. Brennan, I present to you a photostatic copy of
a check in the amount of $200 made payable to William Freedman,
dated February 28, 1955, drawn on the food and beverage drivers, by
Bert Brennan.
I will ask you to examine this photostatic copy of this check and
state if you recognize it and recognize your signature on it.
(A document was handed to the witness. )
Mr. Brennan. I have examined it and on the advice of counsel I
respectfully decline at this time to answer and under the fifth amend-
ment of the United States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be
a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Is that check the check that is made in payment of
the $200 bill which you had previously examined ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Let that check be made exhibit No. 17.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 17" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5746.)
Senator Mundt. Hold the check there. I would like to ask the wit-
ness, is that your signature on the check? Do you recognize that to
be your signature ?
Mr. Brennan. I have examined the check and on the advice of
counsel. I respectfully decline at this time to answer and under the
fifth amendment to the United States Constitution, I assert my privi-
lege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. I may say we have here, if it would be of any help
to von, the hotel bill of Mr. Freedman at the Mavflower Hotel, running
from February 24, 1955, to February 25, 1955. " The total is some $15
or $20. It is not totaled up here.
5500 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Also, the checkout slip of Mr. Freedman, I believe, or his regis-
tration slip. Do you wish to make any comment about it at all, Mr.
Brennan? These seem to be supporting documents of the trip and of
the expense incurred.
Mr. Brennax. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. We have another transaction here, I would like to
ask you about. This is a bill for $100. It is for legal services ren-
dered in drafting of bvlaws. $100 from Hannon. It is dated Jan-
uary 25, 1955.
The Chairman. You may present that to the witness and let him
examine it and state if he identifies it.
Mr. Brennan. I have examined the document and on the advice
of counsel, I respectfully decline at this time to answer under the
fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I assert my privi-
lege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Very well, that document mav be made exhibit
No. 18.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 18" for ref-
ence and will be foimd in the appendix on p. 5747.)
Mr. Kennedy. You had no teamster bylaws being worked on at that
time, did you, Mr. Brennan ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fiifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it true that you went to this law firm to get
some work done on the United States Trotting Association bylaws^
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. I see this bill was O. K.'d by Bert Brennan and our
contacts with that law firm resulted in a statement from them that
they did no work on the teamsters union bylaws, but they did for the
United States Trotting Association bylaws.
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to
answer and under the fifth amendment of the United States Consti-
tution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You feel that is a legitimate expense of the union
to pay the rewriting of the bylaws of the Trotting Association ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer ; and, under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert my privileges not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. "Would you not agree that of you did spend the
money of the union that way, to write bylaws for a" Trotting Associa-
tion rather than to write bylaws for the local or for the union, that
it would be a misuse and misappropriation of union funds, or do you
think that is proper ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
lAfPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5501
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Mr. Brennan, I have here a photostatic copy of
another bill. This is for the Motel and Studio Apartments, Sunaqua,
down in Hallandale Beach, Fla. The date of it appears to be, or at
least it was paid on March 20, 1956, showing room rent of $258.06;
phone bill, $42.40 ; TV, $13. Total amount ot the bill O. K.'d by you
apparently is $337.36.
I will ask you to examine that bill and state if you identify it.
Mr. Brennan. I have examined the document and on the advice of
counsel I respectfully decline at this time to answer and under the
fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I assert my priv-
ilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. That bill will be made exhibit No. 19.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 19" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5748. )
The Chairman. Let me ask you if you were there on that occasion
on union business or personal business ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Was that bill paid out of union funds ?
Mr. Kennedy. It is check 462, O. K.'d by Bert Brennan. We don't
have the check.
The Chairman. Did you pay that bill out of union funds ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. It says here, "Advertising." It says, "2 minutes
to Gulf Stream Race Track." Where you down there in connection
with the Gulf Stream Race Track ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Chairman, we have here three checks, ulti-
mately turned into cash, which we have been trying to find the explan-
ation for. One is dated July 12, 1955, $2,000 to Robert Holmes ; and
another January 20, 1953, to Robert Holmes for $1,000; and the
other one to cash, February 10, 1955, $2,250.
Now, Mr. Holmes has stated that he was ordered to get the cash and
turn it over to Mr. Brennan, and so I would like to find out what that
was for.
The Chairman. I present you a check here, Mr. Brennan, dated
July 12, 1955, payable to the order of Robert Holmes, in the amount
of $2,000, drawn by you and Robert Holmes, on food and beverage
drivers account, and I ask you to examine this check and state if you
identify it and recognize your signature thereon.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
r
5502 IMPROPER ACTR'ITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Brennan. I have examined the document and on the advice
of counsel, I respectfully decline at this time to answer and under the
fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I assert my privi-
lege not to be a witness against myself .
The Chairman. That check may be made exhibit No. 20.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 20" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5749.)
The Chairman'. Do you recognize your signature on the check?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. I am sorry, I was talking to him.
The Chairman. Do you recognize your sigTiature on the check?
Mr. Brennan. On advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at this
time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United States
Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. That check was drawn on union funds, the $2,000
came out of union funds ; did it not ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution, I assert m^' privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Are you not willing to give an accounting here for
the benefit of the union members as to what you did with that money
and the purpose for which it was drawn and how the money was
expended ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of comisel. I respectfully de(^.line at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chafrman. I present you another check drawn in the same
manner, to the same payee, on the same account, signed by you. in the
amount of $1,000 dated January 20. 1953.
I will ask you to examiiie that check and state if you identify it and
what the purpose of it was.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Brennan. I have examined the document and on the advice of
counsel, I respectfully decline at this time to answer and under the
fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I assert my privi-
lege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. "Wlio is Robert Holmes ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment of the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. Is he an officer of the union, food and beverage
drivers ?
Mr. Brennan. On advice of counsel, I respe<?tfully decline at this
time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United States
Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. That check may be made exhibit No. 21.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 21" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5750.)
The Chairman. I present you another check dated February 10,
1955, drawn to cash, in the amount of $2,250 signed by Bert Brennan,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5503
with the food and beverage drivers. I wish you to examine this check
and see if you identify it.
(A document Avas handed to the witness. )
Mr. Brennan. I have examined the document and on the advice
of counsel, I respectfully decline at this time to answer and under
the fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I assert my
privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Do you recognize your signature?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United States
Constitution, I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. That check may be made exhibit No. 22.
(The document referred to was marked ''Exhibit No. 22" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5751.)
The Chairman. I observe on the back of it, and you correct me if I
am wrong, that the endorsement is "Mr. Robert Holmes," apparently
he got the money on it, although the check is made to cash; am I
correct ?
Mr. Brennan. Upon the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline
at this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. According to information this committee has, the
$2,000 check and $1,000 check and the $2,250 check were issued in the
manner as indicated, as you have observed from the photostatic copies
of the checks.
The checks were cashed by Mr. Robert Holmes, and the money
turned over to you. Do you deny it ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
m3'self.
The Chairman. Maybe $5,250.50 is a small amount of money, but
I think there should be an accounting for it, and that is what we are
trying to find out.
There is nothing to indicate how this money was spent, but it is
clearly evident that it came out of the union treasury.
We were hoping you would be helpful and give us some explanation.
Let us try a little larger one. Here is a check dated June 25, 1956,
a little more recent, made payable to the order of Northville Downs,
in the amount of $50,000 signed by you and Mr. Holmes, and en-
dorsed, ''Northville Downs by J. J. Carlo, for deposit."
Mr. Kennedy. I might say in connection with that, that Mr. Hoffa
testified regarding that check, but he said that Mr. Brennan was the
one that had the full details on it, and that we should ask Mr. Bren-
nan about it.
The Chairman. Mr. Hoffa testified when this check was presented
to him and at that time it was made exhibit No. 163, so therefore, I
present to you exhibit No. 163 which was presented to Mr. Hoffa and
which has been made a part of the record.
I will ask you to examine this exhibit No. 163. Will you examine
it and since Mr. Hoffa said you had all of the details we would be glad
to have your explanation of it.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
5504 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Brennan. May I discuss this with my attorney ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Brennan, I have examined the document and on the advice of
my counsel, I respectfully decline at this time to answer and under
the fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I assert my
privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Is that your signature on that check ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privileg;e not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. That is a pretty large sum of money and with the
permission of the committee I am going to order and direct you to
answer the question as to whether that is your signature.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Brennan, I say you ought to give serious coii-
sideration to answering that question. We are developing a rather
curious routine here.
Mr. Hoffa prided himself with some justification on the fact that
he did not take the fifth amendment. He answered a lot of questions
or some questions, anyhow, by saying, "Yes, I know something about
this, but you will have to ask Mr. Brennan."
So you come along now and you take the fifth amendment, and so
we have the fifth amendment in the second degree, Mr. Hoffa taking
it vicariously. I don't want you to spoil Mr. Hoffa's reputation for
not taking the fifth amendment now that you have ruined the batting
average of your counsel. On this one you should be able to give us
some information because Mr. Hoffa was the one who told us to ask
you.
Mr. Brennan. This is the fifth amendment by force. Senator.
Senator Mundt. It is the fifth amendment in the second degree. I
think Mr. Hoffa takes the fifth amendment through your lips this
way.
The Chairman. The Chair orders and directs you to answer
whether that is your signature.
Mr. Brennan. I respectfully decline at this time to answer and
under the fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I assert
my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Was this money a loan f
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at this
time to answer and under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
Tlie Chairman. Who is the owner of that place, Northville Downs ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Do you have an interest in Northville Downs, an
ownership interest ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer and under the fifth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. How many dues-paying members are there that
belong to the food and beverage drivers ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5505
Mr. Brennan. On tlie advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at this
time to answer, and under the hfth amendment to the United States
(Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Well, if there is one, or if there are 12,000, do you
not think that they are entitled to know what $50,000 of their money
Avent for ?
Mr. Brennan. On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline at
this time to answer, and under the hfth amendment to the United
States Constitution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against
myself.
The Chairman. I can only say I am sorry for union members and
their families who have to pay dues to an organization in the hands of
officers who cannot with good conscience, and w^ithout incriminating
themselves, give an accounting of $50,000 of the money they expended.
Are there any other questions ?
Senator Mundt. Are you about through with the w- itness ?
The Chairman. I am going to ask tlie witness 2 or 3 more questions,
but let me ask you, just doing it right now, are you going to answer any
questions ? Are you going to give us any information regarding your
transactions and your stewardsliip of the union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. If you are not, just say you are not. If you are
going to take the hfth ameiidment all afternoon, we can shorten it.
Mr. Brennan. I would like you to ask that question of my attorney.
Tlie Chairman. You may ask it and give his answer and youis, too.
Mr. Brknnan. Now, Mr. Senator, it was ^y\t\\ a great deal of reluc-
tance that I have availed myself of the fifth amendment here today,
and it is only through force of the committee that I am doing so,
because of the position that we had taken prior to the opening of this
hearing today.
On the advice of my counsel, I res})ectfully decline at this time to
answer, and under the fifth amendment to the United States Consti-
tution I assert my privilege not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. All I am trying to find out, and you can just an-
swer "Yes" or "No"
Mr. Brennan. With regard to any questions, sir.
The Chairman. You are going to continue to take the fifth amend-
ment with regard to any questions that nu\y be asked you today I
Mr. Brennan. Today ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is all I wanted to know.
Senator Mundt. Now, Mr. Chairman, this witness, for the reasons
he has just stated, has injected something new into the fifth amend-
ment. He has added a little phrase, "at this time."
That w^as done some 30 or 40 times, which gives some small glimmer
of hope that maybe at some future time he is going to answer all ques-
tions directly.
Now, I would like to say to Mr. Fitzgerald that I have been thinking
about our concession to your request, which you made, t]iat we aA-r)id
calling Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Collins now because of the situation up
in the grand jury and the indictments.
We acceded to your request as far as Mr. Brennan w^as concerned and
as far as any questions were concerned i-egaiding what we construed to
be the grand jury functions and responsibilities. So that these hear-
80330— 57— pt. 14 15
5506 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ings are being deferred by force of the fifth amendment and by force
of circumstances, and in response to yonr re(|nest for some considerable
amount of time.
You have told us that you are going to petition the court to defer
trying Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Collins, likewise Mr. Brennan if he is in-
dicted, because of the climate of opinion in the circumstances.
I just wonder whether perliaps 3'ou might not want to place this
desire for deferments in proper balance by recommending to the con-
vention in Miami that they likewise defer electing a new president of
the teamsters at this time so that all of the facts can be available ana
the record be clarified before anybody acts.
Mr. FrrzGERALD. Does that require an answer?
I think the delegates at the convention, if I know teamster dele-
gates, and I have represented them for probably 20 years, might resent
my intrusion into the aflairs of the teamsters as I think they might
resent the intrusion of the heads of other labor unions intruding into
their affairs.
That would be my only answer and I would hesitate to do it. If I
did, I would like to do it at long distance, and I wouldn't want to be in
Miami.
Senator Mixdt. I thought perhaps you were making a lot of long-
distance calls to Mr. Hoffa. He is down there, and I thought maybe
by long distance you could suggest it because very rightfully, I think,
the teamsters have come to respect your counsel and your judgment.
For my part, and I think I speak for all my colleagues on the com-
mittee. I do not want this committee to be used even remotely to work
any unfair advantage on Mr. Hoffa or anybody else, or to influence the
election or defeat of any candidate who might deserve to be elected
down in Miami.- By the same token, I don't want, as a member of this
committee, to liave this committee used in any way by concealing from
it, and consequently' from the people, any information which gives a
special oppoi'tunity to any candidate down there to be elected before
the facts are all in.
So it would seem to me that if they coukl defer the election, may I
suggest as one country boy to anotlier, perha])s they might select a
v-aretaker's committee down in Miami comprised of the four candidates
for vice president and the secretary-treasurer of the teamsters, and let
them operate the union for V'O days, by which time the grand jury could
have completed its action, and the courts could have completed their
action, and our committee could complete its action, and the rerord
would be clear concerning Mr. Ploff'a. I would tliink you and Mr.
Hoff'a and the teamsters would like to know what the recoid is before
they are forced to vote "Yes'' or "'Xo.'' Doesn't that sound like ;i sort
of a reasonable request or recommendation? Don't you take the fifth
noAv.
Mr. Ftt-^^gkrald. As one country boy to another. I just work for a
living, and I can't very well express what might be my personal
feelinjTs
Senator Muxdt. Should you get an op}:)or^unity to dro]:) th.at idea
down in Miami, should tliey seek your counsel tliere as they have sought
■"t here. I think it Avoukl be a good thing for the teams'^ers and for the
country, so that everybody could know whether these charges against
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES E^f THE' LABOR FIELD 5507
Mr. Ilotta are riglit or wrong. If they are right, 1 can't think of a
single teamster Avho ^voukl want to see him as their national president.
]f They are wrong, the records should be straightened out, and Mr.
] irennan and Mr^ Hoiia and Mr. Collins and those who can set the
lecord straight should feel free to testify, which quite obviously
they do not now. I don't think the teamsters of America shoukl be
exp'ected to buy a pig in a poke, without the information, and I just
pass this suggestion along to a fellow farmer from Detroit.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you.
Mr. Kexxeuy. We haA-e a number of other checks, Mr. Chairman,,
but it does not seem to be helpful to present them.
The Chairmax. I was going to make reference to it. Mr. BrennaUy
of course you appreciate we have a number of other checks and docu-
ments here that we can interrogate you about if there is any probability
of your giving any answers to the (piestions. As I understood you, you
stated definitely that you do not intend to answer any questions today,
but to invoke the fifth amendment privilege.
]\Ir. Brexxax. That is right.
The Chair3iax. So I see nothing to be gained by going along here.
It has been said sometimes this committee has set a pretty high record
or caused witnesses to set a pretty high record in taking the fifth
amendment so many times in one day. Tliat is not the purpose of this
committee and we are not trying to break that record each time some
Avitness comes before us, but if it is futile to proceed, then I think
there is not reason for us to waste the eft'ort.
Mr. Kexxedy. Could I ask one (juestion '. AVe had some testimony
regarding the election of delegates from your local 3o7. The election
Avas back in February, and therefore unconstitutional. Can you tell
us whether you are a legally constituted delegate '.
( The Avitness conferred Avith his counsel. )
Mr. Brex'X'ax'. May I speak to my counsel I
( The witness conferred with his counsel. )
Mr. Brexxax. On advice of counsel I respectfully decline to ansv/er,
and under the fifth amendment to the United States Constitution I
assert my privilege not to be a wit ness against myself.
Mr. Kexxedy. Thank you.
The CiiAiRMAX". Is there anything further \
Mr. Kexxedy. That is all.
The CiiAiRMAX. The Chair will serve upon the Avitness in open
session a subpena to produce his books and records as stated in that
subpena, and the chief clerk may make a return showing it Avas served
by me in the open session.
Mr. lirennan, at some time in tlie future, you Avill be called back to
c()in]>ly Avith the directions of the subpena.
All right, there being nothing else, you may stand aside.
]SIr. Kexxedy. ]Mr. Chairman, Ave have about 4 or 5 witnesses that
Ave hope Ave can get through in about an hour, and the first one will be
Mr. Pierre Salinger, avIio is a staff member of the committee.
The CiiAiRMAX'. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Salixger. I do.
5508 I]\rPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OF PIEERE E. G. SALINGER
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Salinger, you have been ^vork^na• on tlie investi-
gation involving ]Mr. Hotfa over a })erio*l of the last :> weeks or more,
have yon not?
Mr. Sat.ixokr. "i'es, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have examined some of the checks of local
299?
Mr. Salinger. Ihave.
Mr. Kennedy. And did vou find 2 checks to Mr. Irvin Goldstein,
dated March 22, 1955, and March 24, 1955.
Mr. Salinger. I did.
M]'. Kennedy. I^oth in the amounts of $lj)v)() ?
Mr. Salinger. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And they were signed by Frank Collins ?
Mr. Salinger. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Could I j)resent these checks to him ?
Senator McNamar.i. The Chair presents you with these checks,
and see if you can identify them.
(Documents handed to the witness.)
Mr. Salinger. 'J'hese 2 checks, payable to the order of Irvin Gold-
stein, each in the amount of $l,()i)0, came from the files of local 299.
Senator McNamara. The checks will be identified for the record as
exhibits Nos. 28 and 23-A.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits 23 and 23-A''
for reference, and will be found in the appendix on pp. 5752, 5753.)
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did you find out for what purpose those checks
were issued? They were issued, were they not, out of the funds of
local 299?
Mr. Salinger. They were.
Mr. Kennedy. And that is the local of Mr. James Hoffa ?
Mr. Salinger. That is the local of which Mr. Hoffa is the president.
Mr. Kennedy. He is president and Mr. Frank Collins is secretaiy-
trea surer ?
]Mr. Salinger. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you learn what those checks were for?
]Mr. Salinger. I did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee what you liave learned
about the issuance of those checks?
Mr. Salinger. Those two checks were paid to Irvin Goldstein, an
attorney in San Francisco, Calif., in connection with legal business
which he did for a teamster official in St. Louis, Mo. I have an
affidavit here from ]Mr. Goldstein and I would like to read it into the
I'ecord.
I, Irvin Goldstein, being first duly sworu on oath, depose and say that I
am an attorne.y with oflSces at 111 Sutter Street, San Francisco, Calif., that about
the middle of the month of October 1054, while in Washington, D. C, on business,
I met Mr. .James Hoffa. He inquired if I could appear in a matter in St. Louis
and I informed him that I could. The early part of November 1954, I was called
to the telephone and asked to oome to St. Louis. I do not now recall the
identity of the person calling. My records disclose I went to St. Louis on
November 5, 1954, and there I conferred with Mr. Harold Gibbons, and with
Stanley M. Roseublum, Esq., relative to the case of Louis Berra. I was re-
tained in association with Mr. Rosenblum and while there received a check
in the amount of .$.3,000 as a retainer. I do not recall the maker of the check.
My records credit the payment to Louis Berra but it is my recollection I received
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5509
it from an employee of Mr. Gibbons' office while in St. Louis. My records also
disclose that on March 14, 1955, and April 21, 1955, I received additional i)ayments
of $1,000 each from Truck Drivers Local 299, signed "Irvin Goldstein." Sub-
scribed and sworn to before me this 24th day of September 1954, Jessie R.
Calderwood, notary public, for San Francisco.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he received a first check for $3,000.
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have a copy of that check ?
Mr. Salinger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have the documents?
Mr. Salinger. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you liave an}' information where that $3,000
came from?
Mr. Salinger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell the committee.
Mr. Salinger. I telephonically communicated with Mr. Harold
Gibbons, secretary-treasurer of the central conference of teamsters,
this morning, and he said it was paid from the funds of the joint
council 1?) in St. Louis, Mo.
Mr. Kennedy. And that was in connection with the defense of Mr.
Berra?
Mr Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And the other $2,000 in amounting to $1,000 apiece
were from local 299.
Mr. Salinger. That is right. The total fee of Mr. Goldstein was
$5,000 in this matter.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Goldstein was to carry an appeal to the Supreme
Court, is that right?
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Goldstein is an attorney with a tax background,
and Mr. Berra had been convicted in St. Louis, Mo., of income-tax
evasion.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us about the income-tax evasion, and
who Mr. Berra was ?
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Berra was the manager of the St. Louis Health
Institute, which is a health institute which takes care of the problems
of members of Local 688 of the International Brotherhood of Team-
sters, of which Harold Gibbons is the head. In October 1954 he was
convicted on 3 counts of income-tax evasion and sentenced to three
4-year terms, concurrently, in the Federal penitentiary. The Gov-
ernment charged at the time that in the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, Mr.
Berra reported income of $15,985 when he should have reported in-
come of $22,327. The extra income was derived from kickbacks from
contractors employed to build and maintain the St. Louis Health
Institute.
According to the evidence at the trial Mr. Berra had certain repairs
done^ on his home in St. Louis and had the contractors charge these
repairs to the health institute and they were paid for out of the funds
of the health institute.
At the same time Mr. Berra was also found guilty of obstruction
of justice after it was testified thnt he induced a St! Louis painting
contractor, named John F. Schmidt, to destroy records of kickbacks
that Schmidt paid to Berra. In the appeal carried bv Mr. Goldstein
and Mr. Rosenblum to the United States Supreme Court, they held
that illicitly received money could not be construed as income for the
purpose of making an income-tax return.
5510 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN- THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. So the $5,000 that was paid for Mr. Goldstein was
for him to argue before tlie Supreme Court that illicitly earned money
should not be considered income to Mr. Berra ?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And the $5,000 of imion funds was used for tliat pur-
pose.
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. To argue that important point Ijefore the Supreme
Court.
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all on that particular matter. Mi-. Chairman.
We have tAvo other matters I Avnnt to take up with this \vitness.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Kierdorf, when he testified the
first day, on page 17, was asked about some of his background. At
that time he was explaining his time in prison and the fact that he
had been arrested for armed robbery and convicted. He explained
after he got out of prison he went to Mr. James Holfa and was hired
by the teamsters. On page 17 he stated :
And after that I left the teamsters in 1940 and I went back to selling automo-
biles on my own, buying up used cars, etc., and I went into Akron, Ohio, and
while there I was arrested for robbery, armed, of some department store. My
nephew was with me at the time. We were apprehended there and I went to
trial. I was convicted, but under perjured testimony of a police lieutenant, as
the transcript of the trial will show, and upon which I was pardoned out of the
Ohio Penitentiary.
We didn't have any details on that matter, Mr. Chairman, so we
checked into it. Mr. Salinger will tell the committee the results of
that check.
Mr. Salinger. In the first instance, on the subject of the conviction
on perjured testimony, I checked with the chief of police of Akron,
Ohio, Mr. Whitten, and the captain of the detectives of the same police
department, and they searched the records of Mr. Kierdorf's trial.
Mr. Kierdorf and his nephew were arrested in Cleveland, Ohio, on
December 18, 1941, on charges of armed robbery in Akron involving
the robbery of Yeager's Department Store.
The grand jury returned a "no bill" in the case of Frank Kierdorf,
but Herman Kierdorf was indicted and sent to the Ohio State Peni-
tentiary for 10 to 25 years.
There was absolutely no record in Akron, either at the trial or since,
on the subject of any perjured testimony in connection with that trial.
I subsequently interviewed the warden at the Ohio State Peniten-
tiary at Columbus, Ohio, who advised me Mr. Kierdorf was not par-
doned, but rather was paroled from there, and actually was paroled
into the custody of officials in Michigan.
At the time that Mr. Kierdorf went to the Ohio Penitentiary in
July of 1942, Michigan authorities placed a hold on him in connection
with til? robbery of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. of Detroit in
the amount of more than $4,000. So when Mr. Kierdorf was released
from the Ohio State Penitentiary in October of 1948, he was picked up
by Michigan authorities and taken back to Detroit. When he got back
to Detroit, the witness who identified him in the case of the holdup
after 8 years could no longer identify him and the charges were
dropped, and that is when he went to work with the teamsters.
IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5511
The CiiAiRMAX. Have you checked with the Governor's office to
find out whether any pardon was actually issued ?
Mr, Salinger. The penitentiary lias the records on Mr. Kierdorf
and tell me he has not been pardoned. I did not check with the
Governor's office.
The Chairman. I assume that a copy would be with the penitentiary
officials if a pardon had been granted.
Mr. Salinger. I would assume that.
Mr. Kennedy. He stated —
I was convicted but under perjured testimony of a police lieutenant as the
transcript of the trial will show and upon which I was pardoned out of the
Ohio Penitentiary.
So tliat the statement he made was that he was pardoned while in
the Ohio Penitentiary and left under those circumstances, when in fact
after he got out of the Ohio Penitentiary he was sent up to Michigan
to be tried there for another armed robbery.
Mr. Salinger. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened to his nephew? He also went to
work for the teamsters ?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct. The nephew while he was no-
billed in Akron, several months later he was arrested and indicted in
Youngstown, Ohio, on charges of armed robbery. That is Mr. Frank
Kierdorf, now associated with local 332 in Flint, Mich. The chief
witness was drafted into the service and went overseas, and could not
be brought back for the trial, so the conviction was dropped.
Again several months later he was arrested for armed robbery in
Michigan and was convicted and sent to the Michigan State Peniten-
tiary at Jackson. When he emerged from there he went to work
for the teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all for Mr. Kierdorf. I have a third matter.
We were going into the activities of ]SIr. Zigmont Snyder in some
detail. Unfortunately, Mr. Zigmont Snyder has been missing for
a long period of time, and so we are going to try to present what
facts we have without him being here. We have 3 or 4 other wit-
nesses who vrill testify, but I would like to have Mr. Salinger give a
little of the background of Mr. Snyder as far as his relationship with
the teamsters union and also his business relationships are concerned.
Could you tell us first who Mr. Zigmont Snyder is?
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Zigmont Snyder is a business agent of local
299 in charge of the dockworkers section of that local. The people
under his jurisdiction would be longshoremen who formerly belonged
to the International Longshoremen's Association and the Interna-
tional Brotherhood of Longshoremen, and who ]\Ir. Snyder brought
into the teamsters some time early in 1955.
Mr. Snyder achieved his position as a business agent on the water-
front back in 1951, at which time he was named the business agent
for the ILA local there. On that subject, I have an affidavit con-
cerning Mr. Snyder's becoming business agent of the ILA.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you read that, please.
Mr. Salinger. This affidavit is the affidavit of Mr. Fred Farnen.
I, Fred J. Farnen, make the following statement to Sherman S. Willse. who
has identified himself as an investigator for the United States Senate Select
Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Field. The
statement is made voluntarily and with no promise of special favor or immunity.
r
5512 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
I am the secretary-treasurer of the Seafarers International Union of North
America, Great Lakes District, AFL-CIO, 1038 Third Street, Detroit, Mich.
Some time prior to July of 1951 Phillipe La Zountier was acting in the capacity
of part-time head of the International Longshoremen's Association with mem-
bers on the automobile docks of the Detroit Harbor terminals in Detroit, Mich.
At that time La Zountier was employed by the T. J. McCarthy Steamship Co.
He continually pressured the company, particularly demanding more overtime
payments. When these demands were not met, he tied up operations on these
docks.
This situation was brought to the attention of Joseph P. Ryan, president of
the International Longshoremen's Association in New Tork City, who sent Pat
CuUnan, of the International Brotherhood of Longshoremen, to Detroit to in-
vestigate the matter.
Pat Cullnan conducted the investigation and recommended that La Zountier
be ousted.
Following this, a meeting was held in the oflfice of James R. Hoffa, at the Michi-
gan Conference of Teamsters Building. Present at this meeting were : James
R. Hoft'a, Frank E. Fitzsimmons, Pat Cullnan, Simon O'Brien, International Rep-
resentative of the International Lonshoremen's Association of the Great Lakes,
and myself. This took place about July 1951.
At this meeting, Pat Cullnan suggested that Zigmunt Snyder be appointed
to temporarily replace La Zountier. Snyder was known to all present. There
were no objections, althouh I v\'ould not have approved of the choice if I had
known of his record and background, as I now do.
I believe all the above statements to be true to the best of my knowledge.
( Signed ) Feed J. Farnen.
Mr. Kennedy. So Mr. Snyder was selected to be business agent of
the ILA and selected in a meeting held in Mr. Hoffa's office.
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Hoffa was present.
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. As well as Mr. Frank E. Fitzsimmons.
Mr. Salinger. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Snyder took over as business agent of this local
of the longshoremen's union.
Mr. Salinger. Mr, Snyder took over as the business agent for the
ILA and started a kind of track that took him from the ILA to the
International Brotherhood of Longshoi-emen and finally into the
teamsters. In the first place, he took the ILA local into IBL,
which was headed by Mr. Larry Long, of St. Louis, Mo. However,
in September of 1955, Mr. Long placed the IBL local, which Mr.
Snyder was the head of, into receivership. I won't read the entire
order, but I would like to read certain parts of it which were ad-
dressed to local union 1324, of Detroit, Mich., by Mr. Larry Long
under date of September 9, 1955.
It was necessary to take this action for your protection. The affairs of your
local union have been run in a slipshod manner.
Mr. Kennedy. This is the head of the international talking about
the activities of Ziggie Snyder?
Mr. Salinger. That is right. Maybe I should have read the first
paragraph, which says :
Greetings : This is to notify you that IBL Local 1.324 has been placed under
trusteeship and that Ziggie Snyder has been removed from office and no longer
represents said union in any capacity.
Then he went on to say :
The affairs of your local union have been run in a slipshod manner for the past
few years. Very few" union meetings have been held. No financial statements
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5513
have ?>eeu given to the members. We want you to have all the facts before being
hoodwinked or stampeded into making a change which would be harmful to
you in the long run.
At this point, Mr, Long was talking about the next move of Mr.
Snyder, which Avas to take the same members out of the IBL and into
the teamsters.
Mr, Kennedy, And that is local 299 ?
Mr. Salinger. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Mr. James Hoffa's own local,
Mr. Salinger. That is right,
Mr. Kennedy. When did he do that ?
Mr. Salinger. It was around September 1955,
Mr, Kennedy, Then he became a business agent for the teamsters
and head of this area.
]\Ir. Salinger, He was the business agent in charge of the long-
shoremen who belonged to local 299,
Mr, Kennedy. Approximately how many of those?
Mr, Salinger, Approximately 300.
Mr. Kennedy. He was in charge of them?
Mr, Salinger, That is right,
Mr. Kennedy, Could you tell us anything more about the back-
ground of Ziggy Snyder ?
Mr. Salinger. While this is all going on, Mr. Snyder became a busi-
nessman. In 1954, on April 28, in Detroit, Mich,, he hied incor-
poration papers for a company known as the Great Lakes Cargo
Handling Co. The purpose or purposes for which this corporation
is formed are as follows: To engage in the business of loading, un-
loading, and otherwise handling commercial cargo and freight,
whetlier carried on ships by water or overland transportation, at ports,
teriuinals, depots or other points of shipment or receipt.
This corporation shows the incorporator as Zigmont Snyder, 1256
Penobscot Building, Detroit, Mich., and it shows the three officers or
directors as Zigmont Snyder, Samuel Schwartz, and Philip H. Born-
stein. Besides the directors, Mr. Snyder was the only officer of this
corporation that was named.
Senator McNamara. Did the State of Michigan issue these papers
according to the request that was made ?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Senator McNamara. They are incorporated.
Mr. Salinger, They are a corporation, the Great Lakes Cargo
Handling Corp.
Senator McNamara, Under the laws of Michigan.
Mr, Salinger, That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. The document that you referred to there that re-
lieved Mr. Snyder from his position with the Longshoremen, was it,
may be made exhibit No. 2-1:, and the articles of incorporation may be
made exhibit No. 25 for reference only, I don't want to print it in
the record.
(The documents referred to were marked as "Exhibits 24 and 25"
for reference and may be found in tlie files of the select committee.)
Mr. Kennedy. The situation was that he was the business agent for
the longshoremen working on the docks, that in 1954 he became a busi-
nessman and set up a company to work on the docks ; is that right ?
Mr, Salinger, That is correct.
5514 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
]\Ir. Kennedy. That men would work for him who would also be
members of his union ; is that right ?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Then in 1955, because of complaints the way he
had been operating, his union, he transferred over to the teamsters;
is that right?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he remain a businessman when he transferred
intoMr.Hoffa'slocal?
Mr. Salinger. He did.
Mr. Kennedy. In fact, did he exjDand liis business ?
Mr. Salinger. He did. He became a businessman in another field.
Sometime in late 1955 or early 1956 — I don't have the particular mat-
ter before me — he acquired possession of an auto wash in Detroit,
Mich.
The Fort Wayne Manor Auto Wash was owned jointly by Sigmunt
Snyder and his wife Estelle.
Mr. Kennedy. And we are going to have some witnesses on that
auto wash ?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Siggy Snyder was a union official and was very
interested in seeing that people belonged to unions, was he not?
Mr. Salinger. I don't think he was particularly interested in that;
no, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He was interested in having the employees of other
businesses other than his own go to unions ?
Mr. Salinger. He was interested in employees of other people be-
longing to unions, but not so much his own.
Mr. Kennedy. In fact, the operation that he ran on the docks, was
that a union or nonunion operation ?
Mr. Salinger. That was basically a nonunion operation.
Mr. Kennedy. What about his car wash, have vou made a study
about that?
Mr. Salinger. His car wash was a nonunion operation.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have some witnesses who will go
into these two matters.
Is there anything else we need to get into the record ? The head of
the longshoremen spoke of Mr. Ziggy Snyder's background. Has
Mr. Ziggy Snyder a criminal record?
Mr. Salinger. He does.
Mr. Kennedy. A rather extensive criminal record?
Mr. Salinger. He does.
Mr. Kennedy. How many times would it appear that he had been
arrested ?
Mr. Salinger. He has one major arrest for armed robbery in 1928.
He received a 20- to 40-3'ear sentence for armed robbery. He was sent
to the Jackson State Penitentiary and was paroled in 1939.
Since then he has been arrested three times for investigation, twice
for armed robbery and once for assault and battery.
Prior to the time that he was sent to the penitentiary he was also
arrested for investigation four times.
Mr. Kennedy. Just before he transferred into the teamsters was
there some violence in that area ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5515
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Snyder reported to the police that someone had
tried to kill him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the police make an investigation ?
Mr. Salinger. They did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say he was in his car speeding along and
somebody took a shot at him ?
Mr. Salinger. He stated that.
Mr. Kennedy. And the police made an investigation ?
Mr. Salinger. They did.
Mr. Kennedy. What did they find ?
Mr. Salinger. They came to the conclusion that the car was stand-
ing still at the time the shots were pumped into it and it is their theory
that he pumped the shots into his own car.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
Senator McNamara. Did you run into an NLRB election at the
time that these people transferred from the longshoremen or whatever
the organization was, into the teamsters?
Mr. Salinger. I did not.
Senator McNamara. My recollection is that there was an NLRB
election involved about that time and they went into the teamsters of
this election.
Mr. Salinger. I believe there was an election.
Senator McNamara. I am quoting from memory of what happened.
I read it in the paper.
Mr. Salinger. I believe you are right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I believe that is right, sir.
The Chairman. All right, call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Robert McKercher.
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
trutli, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. McKercher. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT M. McKERCHER
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name, your place of resi-
dence, and your business or occupation.
Mr. McivERCHER. Robert M. McKercher, 4202 Arlington Drive,
Royal Oak, Mich., plant manager. International Milling Co., Detroit.
The Chairman. You are familiar with the rules of the committee
that permit you to have counsel present if you desire ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you waive counsel ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell us a little about your business ?
Mr. McKercher. We are in the business of milling flour in Detroit,
which requires the unloading of grain vessels from the spring portion
we bring in from Duluth.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1954 did you sign a contract for the unloading
of your vessel ?
Mr. McKercher. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell us about that ?
5516 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. McKercher. I signed a contract with Ziggy Snyder doing busi-
ness as Great Lakes Cargo Handling Co.
Mr. Kennedy. What other position did Ziggy Snyder have at that
time ?
Mr. McKercher. As far as I know, no other.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have any other position ?
Mr. McKercher. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he with the union at the time ?
Mr. McKercher. I presume that he was.
Mr. Kennedy. You know he was, do you not ?
Mr. McKercher. No, sir ; I don't know for sure.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any contact with him prior to that
time?
Mr. McKercher. Prior to that time whenever it was necessary for us
to have a grain vessel unloaded we called Ziggy Snyder.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you call Ziggy Snyder ?
Mr. McKercher. In that case he was acting as business agent for
the longshoremen.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you knev/ he was the official of a union at that
time ?
Mr. McKercher. I didn't know when he took on this other deal
whether he relinquished the other or not.
Mr. Kennedy. At least prior to January 1954, you knew he was the
official of a union ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. After January 1954, when he also took on these other
responsibilities, the Great Lakes Cargo Handling Co., you didn't know
who you were dealing Avith, whether it was an official of a union or
whetJier it was Ziggy Snyder, businessman ?
Mr. McKercher. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. But he then took on the handling of the unloading
of your ships after that ?
Mr. ^McKercher. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. You made a contract with him ?
Mr. iJcKercher. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. He came to see you and made a suggestion that he
would set up a company ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, he did.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you ?
Mr. McKercher. He said he woidd like have a contract with us for
the unloading of his vessels. If I recall correctly, the one reason he
gave vv'as tliat he felt that his men could get in more time during a
year — I beg your pardon. That was later. That is when he explained
why he took his boys into the teamsters.
I don't know why he wanted it. I know why we were glad to get it.
Mr. Kennedy. Why were you glad to get it ?
Mr. jMcKercher. Because we had had a very loose arrangement
before and this offered an opportunity to put our agreement in writing
as to the rates of unloading.
At that time we had hoped to develop a laborsaving device which
would facilitate the unloading of grain and it gave us an opportunity
of putting a clause in the new contract which stated that in the event
that such a laborsaving device was installed, we would renegotiate
the rate.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD 5517
Mr. Kennedy. So you had a deal with Ziggy Snyder as a business
agent and you felt that arrangement was too nebulous, is that right ?
Mr. McKercher. That is right, yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you decided to deal with Ziggy Snyder, busi-
nessman, and that seemed to work out better ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you sign a contract ? You signed a contract, as
I understand it, in January 1954 with Ziggy Snyder, businessman.
Did you also sign a contract with Ziggy Synder, business agent of
the local ?
Mr. McKercher. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever liave an arrangement with the local
after that ?
Mr. McKercher. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He handled everything ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Ziggy Snyder, businessman ?
Mr. McKercher. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You never had any problem with the local union
after that?
Mr. McKercher. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Never any difficulties ?
Mr. McKercher. No, sir.
The Chairman. As I understand, prior to the time he set up this
corporation and made a contract with you to do your unloading, you
had to sign contracts with him as business agent of a union ?
Mr. McKercher. No, sir.
The Chairman. I was a little confused. Will you explain it?
Mr. McKercher. To the best of my knowledge, I came to Detroit
to manage the mill in 1952. At that time we had no contract with
anybody for unloading our vessels. We didn't get a contract until
1954, in January.
The Chairman. What was the difference ?
Mr. McKercher. The difference as I saw it was before we had no
contract we could not know where we were. There was a question in
my mind as to who would be liable in the event that one of his employees
was injured.
When we wrote the new contract, we had a "hold harmless" clause
written in there that would define the liability.
The Chairman. That is when you wrote the new contract ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What about the old contract ?
Mr. McKercher. There was no old contract.
The Chairman. Then the new contract was the only contract ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. There was no old one and a new one ?
Mr. McKercher. That is right.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy; I did not quite mider-
stand that.
Mr. Kennedy. You do remember the time when Ziggy Snyder
brought his people into the teamsters' union ?
Mr. McKercher, I don't know that I know when it was. No. I
think he told me he was going to. I remember lookiiig through my
notes. I saw a note to myself when I met with him and Sam Schwartz,
5518 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
he said that his men were now presently members of Teamsters' Local
Union, No. 15.
Mr. Kennedy. You knew him then also as a union official, did you
not. that he was both a businessman operating under this Great Lakes
Handling and he was also working as a business agent of the long-
shoremen's union ?
Mr. McKercher. I suspected he was.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Mien he told you he was going to bring his people
into the teamsters, he was not bringing his people from the Great
Lakes Handling Co. He was bringing his people from the local into
the teamsters, was he not ?
Mr. INIcKerciter. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know if any of the people who were working
for Ziggy Snyder as businessman were members of the union ?
Mr. McKercher. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have to pay any dues for them, checkoff or
anything ?
Mr. INIcKercher. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know where he got his people ?
Mr. McKercher. My guess, and it is a guess, is that some of the
]:>eople are employees and the bulk that he gets for our particular
operation he gets off the street.
Mr. Kennedy. If you had to guess on it or use your best judgment
in tellins: the committee alwut this, you would also say they were not
members of the union ; is that not true ?
]\Ir. McKercher. I would guess that they were not.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to ask you about the time that they
transferred over to the teamsters union. Tliere was a memorandum
written about the time that this transfer was made over from the long-
shoremen's union to the teamsters union.
Mr. McKercher. Are you referring to the communication we had
from the IBL?
Mr. Kennedy. I am referring to a memorandum, interoffice memo-
randum, which reads :
Ziggy and his regular crew unloaded a steamer Saturday and Sunday, Septem-
ber 10 and 11. There was no trouble. The teamsters had a group of stalwarts
standing by to assist Ziggy and his men in case of interference by the long-
shoremen.
It is apparent that Ziggy plans to take the men into the teamsters. He told
me the reason is that with the ILA his men get only 9 months' work. With the
teamsters they would be used for haulaways.
Apparently he means loading of automobile truck transport.
At the time Ziggy transferred his men into the teamsters union,
there was a group of teamsters around to make sure there was no
trouble.
Mr. McKercher. I didn't see them, but I was told that there were.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't the representative of the longshoremen's
union come to see you about Ziggy Snyder ?
Mr. McKercher. He did.
Mr. Kennedy. And you wrote a memorandum on that visit ?
Mr. McKercher. To our people, not to him.
Mr. Kennedy. No ; an interoffice memorandum.
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5519
Mr. Kexnedy (reading) :
(Jn December 13, 1955, Weaver, of the longshoremen, was here and tried to
interest us in signing up with his organization. He took a dim view of Ziggy's
action, claiming he used his office as a business agent to enter into private con-
tracts with individual concerns along the Detroit waterfront.
He also stated Ziggy had been relieved from his duty. He s;iid his outfit had a
contract with the McCarthy Steamship Co., and he also understood that the
teamsters took over the Detroit harbor terminal.
He told you at that time the difficulties they had with Ziggy Snyder,
and he was operating in what appeared to be a clear conflict of inter-
ests ; is that right ?
jNIr. McIvERCiiER. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any trouble with Ziggy Snyder and
his activities?
Mr. McKercher. We have several instances. Tavo of them that I
wrote to Ziggy about and one instance after a vessel was unloaded we
were missing some masks tliat the men wear, three aluminum shovels,
and other odd paraphernalia that was peculiar to unloading the vessel.
While the amount was not large, I was of the opinion that we should
let Ziggy know about it, so Ave were not about to put up with that sort
of thing in the future.
Mr. Kennedy. I read here, for instance, August 28, 1056, again from
your files, on the loading of the James Watt:
August 7, 1957, our equipment-check list showed the disappearance of a fair
amount of equipment, including 3 chains, 13 dust masks, and so forth.
Is that what you are talking about ?
Mr. McKercher. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy (reading) :
I can only say that it appears that missing items remain on board. Ziggj' is
a\Aare of the situation.
Did you let him know about it ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. At a later time, August 23, 1956 —
We note also that through poor ship handling there is possibility that the
marine leg was sprung. We understand that you have examined it since and
apparently there was no damage. This is something we should be very sure
about. It was sprung once before and we should be sure that we have not
aggravated an already bad situation.
Would that be because of the responsibility of Ziggy Snyder's
peo]:)le 'I
Mr. McKercher. That is questionable at that time, whether or not
Ziggy's crew was moving the vessel or whether the vessel was being
moved by the shipowners. I believe that note that you read there
was a note from myself to our grain elevator foreman.
Mr. Kennedy. Here is another one on July 21, 1957. You have a
number of complaints about the activities of Ziggy Snyder; do
you not ?
Mr. McKercher. There is another complain I believe you have
there when it took his group what Ave thought an extraordinary time
to unload the A^essel. I wrote a letter to him of which I think you
have a copy, calling his attention to the fact that it took a long
time and pointing out to him that hurt his operation the same as
it liurt ours.
5520 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Here is another one on February 1, 1957, Mr. Chair-
man, that I would like to have him read. It gives a rundown of
Ziggy Snyder's activities as a businessman in connection with his
work for the union.
The Cpiairman. Give the copy to the witness. If yoii do not
identify that copy, I have one here I think you will identify.
Mr. McKercher. This is correct. This is an accurate copy.
The Chairman. You may read it.
Mr. McKercher. This is a letter from the man that runs our grain
department in Detroit to myself.
We thought we should outline to you some of the difficulties we have ex-
perienced with Ziggy Snyder's crew on the unload of the Cuyler Adams.
Initially, the cleanup of Hold 3 progressed in an extremely slow manner
on Tuesday, January 29. We mentioned this to Ziggy and he tried to alibi
that some of the delay was caused by f reezeup on the air hoses but this f reezeup
of an hour and 20 minutes did not occur until Wednesday, January 30. It
took Ziggy's crew 12 hours on Tuesday to clean 43,154-40# out of Hold 3 thus
cleaning it up. 36,825 bushels had been dipped out of this hold the day
previous.
In addition to this delay on Hold 3, Ziggy's foreman refused to work the
boat later than 8 p. m. on Tuesday evening and the crew walked off the job
whereas we had intended to move into another hold for a short dip in prepa-
ration for the following morning.
We completed the cleanup on Hold 1 at 4 : .30 p. m. Wednesday afternoon and
due to improper handling of the boat pullers a pin was sheared off the east boat
puller putting it out of commission and at 8: 00 p. m. that evening the boat still
had not been completely pulled into position for dipping from Hold 4. During
the process the boat had slipped into the river about 20 feet. In handling the
vessel with the west boat puller, ditliculty was experienced and they could not
pull tlie boat. It later developed that the shear pin had been stripped on this
puller also thus putting it out of commission.
In talking to Ziggy this morning, he claimed it was not his responsibility to
operate the boat pullers to which we advised it was our understanding that he
should do so. We have not in the past made men available for handling these
boat pullers nor were our men available last night for doing the job although
they did help out in view of the inability of Ziggy's men to cope with the
situation.
The opinion has been expressed, which seems reasonable, that Ziggy's men
have not handled the boat puller in a manner which would avoid damage to the
equipment. The fact that the lines have not been properly relaxed has resulted
In the pullers pretty well working against themselves. This is the best answer
we have been able to arrive at as to why the boat pullers were damaged.
The fourth difficulty we have had with the Longshoremen on this vessel re.sulted
today when we at last were able to get the boat moved by the barley truck in
order to permit entry of the Grand Trunk ferry. At 15 minutes to 12, the boat
was nioved sufficiently to allow the ferry to gain access to their slip but again
the Longshoremen's crew were lax in not tightening the lines svifficieutly to avoid
the boat slipping back and away from the dock and the ferry was still unable
to proceed. In the meantime the Longshoremen's crew left the scene, presimiably
to lunch, thus causing another hour or so delay in permitting the entry of the
Grand Trunk ferry. This same confusion repeated itself after the ferry got in
and then could not get out. ^^'e have been unable to work Hold 4 all day and
now plan working this evening when the ferry is off.
( Footnote— Diet. 2-1-57 : )
Since writing the above letter we have further difficulties to report due to
an inadequate crew supplied by Ziggy's organization. We were not able to get
a bushel off the C it pier Adams on January 31 due to the delays caused by the
ferry and the fact that we could not work the boat further without taking wheat
out of Hold 4 thus tying up the ferry further. We therefore were unable to
commence Hold 4 until 8: 00 p. m. in the evening after the ferry had completed
their delayed runs. The truck which we rented handled the job very nicely
imtil 1 : 00 a. m. when the Longshoremen's crew again allowed the vessel
to slip from the dock. From 1 : 00 a. m. to 4 : 00 a. m. in the morning the truck
endeavored to bring the vessel back into positioning for the final cleanup on
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5521
Hold 4 but considerable difficulties was experienced due to ice conditions blocking
access to the dock. Eventually the proi)er spotting was made but the lost time did
not enable us to complete Hold 4 prior to the ferry's arrival at 9 : 00 a. m.
The vessel was moved back to hold 2, on v^^hich we could now proceed, due to
the dip in hold 4. However, this movement was made by Rickel's barley truck,
since the rented truck had either stripped the gears or damaged the clutch and
could not operate. Difficulty was again experienced with the men on board not
relaxing the lines sufficiently, and the barley truck could not cope with the situa-
tion and refused to carry on at that time. The gentleman in charge of the boat
crew does not seem to be able to muster his men in a manner that we have
enjoyed in the past with his predecessor. In addition, the general crew do not
seem to be of a caliber that Ziggy has had in the past.
Mr. Kennedy. How much does Ziggy Snyder get a year from your
company for these activities ?
Mr. McKercher. It depends on the amount of grain unloaded, but I
would say it runs between twenty and twenty-five thousand dollars a
year.
Mr. Kennedy. You admittedly had some difficulty with him ?
Mr. MoKercher. I might add, to be perfectly fair to the gentleman
involved, it has since developed that it is not his responsibility to move
the vessel. It is ours.
Mr. Kennedy. So this was not his problem?
Mr. McKercher. It was that particular clay. But we were wrong,
and we didn't know" it.
Mr. Kennedy. What men would do it ?
Mr. McKercher. Our men.
Mr. Kennedy. What union do they belong to ?
Mr. McKercher. Ours belong to AFL Grain Millers and Food
Processors.
Mr. Kennedy. So it was their responsibility ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Had Mr. Snyder's men taken the responsibility at
that time ? Weren't they the ones doing it ?
Mr. McKercher. I think it w^as indefinite. We, unfortunately, had
a new elevator foreman and new grainman at the same time. There
Avas some confusion in the elevator as to whose responsibility it was.
Mr. Kennedy. When you had these kinds of difficulties — and there
are a number of memoranda in your files about the problems you were
having with Ziggy Snyder's people — you are paying $20,000 to $25,000
a year — why didn't you get somebody else to handle this who could
do it more efficiently ?
Mr. McKercher. Who else I
Mr. Kennedy. Couldn't you get somebody else ?
Mr. McKercher. I think not.
Mr. Kennedy. Only Ziggy Snyder. He is the only one ?
Mr. McKercher. He is allegecl to be the boss of the waterfront.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the boss of the Materfront. He is the only one
3'ou could go to ; is that right 'I
Mr. McKercher. I would say so.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you seen Ziggy Snyder lately ?
Mr. McKercher. I saw him yesterday afternoon.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversation with him about this
committee %
Mr. McKercher. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. You told him you were coming here?
80.1.30— 57— pt. 14 16
5522 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES Df THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. McKercher. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate to you that he knew we were in-
terested in him also?
Mr. McKercpier. The inference was rather broad that he knew
that he was being songht.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate to yon that he was going to try to
get in touch with us and visit with us here in Washington ?
Mr. McKercher. He did not.
Mr. Kennedy. He did not?
Mr. McKercher. No, sir.
Senator McNamara. If you wanted to get ahold of him today in
connection with your business, would you know where to look for
him ?
Mr. McKercher. Senator, I would not. As ]Mr. Salinger knows,
and Mr. Willse, who was up there from your committee, there are
about 4 or 5 different numbers that you have to run to before you find
him and more often than not you don't find him within an hour or two.
Senator McXamara. How did you find him yesterday ?
Mr. McKercher. He came to our office.
Senator McNamara. You still have a contract with him?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamar.\. He still represents the employees?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Senator McNamara. AMiat would you do today if you wanted to
reach him in connection with your business ?
Mr. McKercher. Our grain department has to reach him every
time we get a vessel.
Senator McNamara. Let us assume you got a vessel right now, what
would you do ?
]Mr. McKercher. I don't do it, Senator, but our grain department
does and I think they start at the bottom of the list and go down until
they reach him.
Mr. Kennedy. We tried that. We tried every listing.
Senator McNamara. It is very interesting how you could get in
touch with him yesterday and our people have not been able to get in
touch with him all this time.
Mr. McKercher. I didn't get in touch with him. Senator. He came
into our office.
The Chairman. "\Miat did he get in touch with you about?
Mr. McKercher. We had overpaid him on the last vessel that was
overloaded.
The Chairman. He came to return the money before you testified ?
Mr. McKercher. Not only that but we found we macle an error in
a previous vessel last spring of the same kind.
The Chairman. ^Y\\at did he say about testifying before this
committee ?
]\Ir. McKercher. He said nothing.
The Chairman. I thought he said he indicated that he didn't want
to testify.
]Mr. McKercher. No, sir. I said the inference in my conversation
with him was very broad that he was being sought.
The Chairman. He intimated to you that he was being sought?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5523
The Chairman. Did he tell 3^011 to give us any information about
where we could find him ?
Mr, McKerciier, No, sir.
The Chairmaist. Do you think j^ou could serve a subpena on him
for us ?
Mr. McKercher. If you will give me the authority I will be glad
to try.
The Chairman. You have the authority. Write out the subpena.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know where he gets his men from ?
Mr. McKercher. 1 believe I answered that before. My guess is
that he has 3 or 4 men that are with him normally on our vessels and
the balance he piclvs up off the street.
Mr. Kennedy. What would be the balance ordinarily ?
Mr. McKercher. We have two types of operations. When we dip
a boat we require only 4 or 5 men. When we have a complete cleanup,
he uses anywhere from 15 to 18 men. Sometimes 20.
Mr. Kennedy. There was an accident some time ago involving a 15-
year-old boy, was there not ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He was not a member of the union, was he ?
Mr. McKercher. I don't know. I would guess not.
Mr. Kennnedy. So the majority of the people that work for Ziggy
Snyder you would know were not members of the union ?
Mr. McKercher. No, I wouldn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Any time there were only 3 or 4, they were regular
people that work for Ziggy Snyder ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Obviously he goes out and recruits a gang and
puts them to work ?
Mr. McKercher. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Why do you pay him $20,000 or $25,000 a year?
Can't your people do this ? They recruit people who are working for
jobs. Is that the theory we are proceeding on ?
Mr. McKercher. Well, sir, prior to my time I understand a good
many years ago and this has come down to several people prior to my
own management there, I think that our company and the company
that we bought out prior to us attempted to do that. It is extremely
difficult. We have a regular crew in our flour mill and elevator
operation.
We run a lot 24 hours a day and a good many days a week, so we
don't have any play. We don't have any surplus of labor. When you
bring a vessel in and unload it and require 15 or 20 men you don't
have many of your men that you can spare tliat type of work. The
demurrage on the vessel is so high that you don't work 8 hours but
you have to continue.
Senator McNamara. I understand the pi'oblem. If he goes out and
hires people that are apparently union people, the union doesn't enter
it. He goes down into Michigan or Cass and brings up a load of men
and puts them to work. Whv should you pay him $20,000 or $25,000,
because you have employees tliat could pick these people up ?
Mr. McKercher. We would rather have him liave the headaches
than we.
Senator McNamara. What are the headaches involved ?
Mr. McKercher. What kind of help are you going to get.
5524 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES ESP THE LABOR FIELD
Senator McNamara. The same help ?
Mr. McKercher. That is right.
Senator McNamara. That doesn't help ?
Mr. McKercher. It takes more supervision than we have.
Senator McNamara. Then he supervises these peo^Dle, or his 4 or 5
men?
Mr. McKercher. That is right.
Senator McNamara. He has the framework. He has 2 or 3 lead men
that he puts on the job.
Mr. McKercher. He has 2 or o lead men that he puts on the job.
Senator McNamara. That is worth $20,000 or $25,000 a year to your
company ?
Mr. McKercher. We think so.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. You stand by a minute. That is all for your testi-
fying. I am going to authorize and empower you right now to serve a
subp^na on Zigmont Snyder. I will have it ready and present it to you
in a little while. You are deputized and authorized to perform that
service for the committee.
Mr. McKercher. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. We made an examination and found this 15-year-old
boy who was injured and there was also an 18-year-old boy who was
injured. They are both nonunion. They were working in a crew of
eiglit at the time this accident took place. We have been assured
that none of the eight were members of the union.
The Chairman^ The whole purpose of this testimony is that some
of these so-called union boys that are associated with Mr. Hoffa demon-
strate their lack of concern for the welfare of working people by en-
gaging in these collusive practices that result in services that conflict
with union interests.
Mr. Kennedy. Now we are going into the car-wash activities of Mr.
Zigmont Snyder, Mr. Chairman. We will call Mr. William Neff.
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the evidence you shall give
before this select committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Neff. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM JOHN NEIT
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and busi-
ness or occupation.
Mr. Neff. My name is William John Neff. I live at 804 East Hayes,
Hazel Park, Mich. Manager of a parking garage in downtown
Detroit.
The Chairman. You waive right of counsel ?
Mr. Neff. I do.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. You are manager of the Patton Garages ?
Mr. Neff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have a large number of cars ?
Mr. Neff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You have taken those cars or were taking them to
the Cass Auto Wash to be washed ?
Mr. Neff. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIESi IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5525
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us whether you were approached by
any union official to change the place where you were taking your cars?
Mr. Neff. I was called by Mr. Welch,
Mr. Kennedy. Identify Mr. Welch.
Mr. Neff. He is business agent for the teamsters. I don't know
what local he is with. But he called me and asked me if I would send
my cars-
Mr. Kennedy. Local 985 ?
Mr. Neff. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Mr. William Buffalindo's local ?
Mr. Neff. I believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the local that handles the juke boxes and car
wash ?
Mr. Neff. I think so.
Mr. Kennedy. The coin machines and car wash.
Mr. Neff. I believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Welch is a business agent. He came to you and
asked you to change the place that you were sending your cars ?
Mr. Neff. He said he had a friend who was starting up a car wash
and would like to have those cars sent over to him.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did he say he wanted you to send your cars?
Mr. Neff. He didn't say the exact name of the place, but he said it
would start up on Temple and Cass.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it Fort Wayne Manor Auto Wash at that area
at Temple and Cass ?
Mr. Neff. That is right. But at that time it was not there. At the
time he called me. He said in 2 or 3 weeks it would start up.
Mr. Kennedy. The car wash opened at the location that he said his
friend was going to open up a car wash ?
Mr. Neff. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. He asked you to take your cars from the place you
were having them washed and move over there ?
Mr. Neff. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you tell him ?
Mr. Neff. I told him we were satisfied with the Cass Auto Wash,
and I would not send them down there.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently within a short period of time, was
there a strike called on the Cass Auto Wash ?
Mr. Neff. I don't know if there was a strike, but there was a picket
line around there, and I was called and told not to send the cars down
there, that they had a picket line around the place.
Mr. Kennedy. Who told you that ?
Mr. Neff. Mr. Welch.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Welch then called you and told you not to send
your cars any longer to Cass Auto Wash because they had placed a
picket around the place ?
Mr. Neff. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. As I understand it, the employees of Cass Auto Wash
were not on strike ?
Mr. Neff. No ; they were not.
Mr. Kennedy. These were outsiders that came by and started
picketing the Cass Auto Wash ?
Mr. Neff. I don't know if they were all union men or not. I
couldn't tell you that. I know they were not on strike themselves.
5526 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. The employees of the auto wash were not on strike.
It was the outsiders that came in that walked with pickets. Mr.
Welch came to you and told you that there were pickets and you
should no longer send j^our cars there ?
Mr. Neff. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you change the place that you were sending
your cars ?
Mr. Neff. Yes. I sent it to a car wash on Woodward Avenue, the
National Car Wash.
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you send your cars to the Fort Wayne
Manor Auto Wash, which was the friend of Mr. Welch ?
Mr. Neff. I didn't — I didn't want any trouble and I was a little
stubborn, I guess.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell the committee why you didn't do what
Mr. Welch requested ?
Mr. Neff. I didn't feel it would be right to send them over there.
Bernie did a good job for me. I just figured I would send them to a
different place which was a union car wash.
Mr. Kennedy. You had talked to the proprietor of Cass Auto Wash
and he suggested this place you ultimately sent them to ?
Mr. Neff. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you send them there because he had been a
friend of yoi:rs ? The man at Cass Auto Wash ?
Mr. Neff. That is right. I sent them to National Car Wash on
Woodward Avenue.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you do it because j^ou felt the union had been
causing Cass Auto Wash some difficulty ?
Mr. Neff. No ; I wasn't forced.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mrs. Snyder ever come to see you? Mrs. Zig-
mont Snyder ?
Mr. Neff. Yes. She came over and asked me if I would not send
the cars over to her. I said, no, we were satisfied with the Cass
Car Wash and when the picket line was removed I would send them
back clown there again.
Mr. Kennedy. So you would not send them to the Fort Wayne
Manor Auto Wash ?
Mr. Neff. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know how long the strike lasted ?
Mr. Neff. Quite a while, I would say.
Mr. Kennedy. I mean the picket line.
Mr. Neff. Maybe 5 or 6 months. I am not sure. It was quite a
while.
Mr. Kennedy. You never sent vour cars to the Fort Wayne Manor
Auto Wash, is that right ?
Mr. Neff. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know whether this car wash that the pickets
were put on was a union shop ?
Mr. Neff. I don't know whether all the employees did, but I guess
some of them did. I imagine, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know ?
Mr. Neff. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you send your cars back to the Cass Auto Wash ?
Mr. Neff. Yes ; they are doing them now.
Mr. Kennedy. Where you originally did it ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5527
Mr. Xeff. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. As a result of the picket line did tliey become a fully
organized place ?
Mr. Neff. "What do you mean ?
Mr. Kennedy. Thej^ took the picket line off ?
Mr. Neff. They took the picket line off. The day they took the
picket line off I sent the cars back.
Mr. Kennedy. Did that mean that the place AYas organized ?
Mr. Neff. Xo ; it is still not union.
Mr. Kennedy. The pickets Avere taken off without succeeding in
creating a union plant ?
Mr. Neff. That is right.
JNIr. Kennedy. So you have taken your cars from a union place,
National, to what you believe to be a nonunion place ?
Mr. Neff. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. All right.
Mr. Chairman, the particular significance of Mr. Neff's testimony
is Mr. Welch approaching him and suggesting that he take his auto-
mobiles to the Fort Wayne Manor Auto Wash, because the Fort Wayne
Manor Auto Wash which was operated by Zigmont Snyder was a non-
union shop. So we have the situation of a union official, business
agent of a local, going to a company and asking them to transfer their
business to a nonunion shop.
We will now call another witness who will testify on that.
Thank you.
Mr. James Wadlington.
The Chairman. Will you be sworn. You do solemnly swear that
the evidence you shall give before this select committee will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Wadlington. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES E. WADLINGTON
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name, your place of resi-
dence and your business or occupation.
Mr. Wadlington, James E. Wadlington, Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. James
Mr. Wadlington. E. Wadlington.
The Chairman. Wadlington.
Mr. Wadlington. Detroit, Mich. ; I work at Fort Wayne Manor
Car Wash.
Mr. Kennedy. The Fort Wayne Manor Wash is the auto wash that
is operated by Mrs. Zigmont Snyder?
Mr. Wadlington. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You have been working there how long ?
Mr. Wadlington. For about a month.
Mr. Kennedy. You came from what State?
Mr. Wadlington. Kentucky.
Mr. Kennedy. And you went to Detroit and went to work there ; is
that right?
]Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have been working there for approximately
a month ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
5528 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Are you a member of any union ?
Mr. Wadlington. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you ever asked to sign a union card ?
Mr. Wadlington. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Was the union ever mentioned to you ?
Mr. Wadlington. Some of the guys talked about it.
Mr. Kennedy. But you never became a member of the union your-
self?
Mr. Wadlington. No.
Mr. Kennedy. And they are not members of the union ?
Mr. Wadlington. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Working for Mr. Zigmont Snyder in his auto wash,
how much money did you make there ? For instance, for last week or
last Friday.
Mr. Wadlington. About $1.60.
Mr. Kennedy. That is how much you made ?
Mr. Wadlington. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. How many hours did you work there ?
Mr. Wadlington. 11%.
Mr. Kennedy. What time do you start ?
Mr. Wadlington. 7 : 30.
Mr. Kennedy. And you work mitil 7 o'clock at night ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you mad^ about $1.60 ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did 3'ou make the day before ?
Mr. Wadlington. I don't remember but it was not much. It was
probably less than that.
Mr. Kennedy. $1.60 at Mr. Snyder's auto wash is a pretty good
salarj^?
Mr. Wadlington. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is about as high as you can get ?
Mr. Wadlington. You can go a little higher. Yesterday we made
more.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you make yesterday ?
Mr. Wadlington. $2.70 yesterday.
Mr. Kennedy. For II14 hours ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How much vou make a week, approximatelj^ ?
Mr. Wadlington. About $6 or $7.
Mr. Kennedy. About $6 or $7 a week ?
Mr. Wadlington. Yes ; 7 days.
Mr. Kennedy. That is a 7-day week ?
Mr. Wadlington. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. 11% hours?
Mr. Wadlington. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. Zigmont Snyder is a business agent
of Mr. Hoff a's teamsters' imion ?
Mr. Wadlington. No ; I did not know.
Mr. Kennedy. Tliat is about $7 a week you make ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right. Maybe a little, but not too much.
Mr. Kennedy. Do they have a box there for you to have tips ?
Mr. Wadlington. They did for a while, and then she removed it.
Mr. Ejinnedy. Mrs. Snyder removed the box ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5529
Mr. Wadlijq^gton. Yes.
Mv. Kennedy. You don't get tips at all ?
Mr. Wadlington. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you thinking of leaving that job ?
Mr. Wadlington. 1 got an application for other places and I am
■waiting for one to come through.
Mr. Kennedy. It is difficult to find work in Detroit ?
Mr. Wadlington. It is a bad place to find work.
Mr. Kennedy. You haven't money to transfer to another city ?
Mr. Wadlington. No.
Mr. Kennedy. So you have had to stay there ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And this is the best job you can get there at the time ?
Mr. Wadlington. It is the only job.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you in the military services ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How long were you in ?
Mr. Wadlington. Fifteen months.
Mr. Kennedy. In the Army ?
Mr. Wadlington. In the Army.
Mr. Kennedy. You served without any trouble ?
Mr. Wadlington. Yes ; without any trouble.
Senator McNamara. You mean that you have agreed to work for
$1.60 a day ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is all I could find.
Senator McNamara. I know, but did you agree to go to work for
111/2 hours for $1.60 ?
Mr. Wadlington. She pays 60-40 on the line.
Senator McNamara. You mean they charge a dollar for a car
wash ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Senator McNamara. Sixty cents goes to who ?
Mr. Wadlington. The boss, Mrs. Snyder.
Senator McNamara. You get 40 cents ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. I better explain that. There are about 10 of you?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. The 40 cents is split among the 10 of you ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. For each car that comes in you get 4 cents; is that
right?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Senator McNamara. Then in a day you would have to wash 40
cars to get $1.60 ; is that right ?
Mr. Wadlington. Yes, sir ; something like that.
Senator McNamara. Forty cars for 11 hours; that would be 3 or
4 an hour.
Mr. Wadlington. Sometimes we have a little more and sometimes
we have less.
Senator McNamara. Are there about 10 in your gang ?
Mr. Wadlington. Sometimes it is 10, li. Sometimes it is less.
Yesterday we had 7.
Senator McNamara. That is why you made more money ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is risfht.
r
5530 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
Senator McNamara, You are not kept very busy. It is a pieceAvork
setup. You get so much a car, a gang price.
Mr. Wadlixgton. That is right.
Senator McNamara, You dichi't agree to work for $1.60 a day ?
Mr. Wadlington. No.
Senator McNamara. You agreed to work for so much per car ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
Senator McNamara (presiding). Is there anything further?
Mr. Kennedy. Not at this time. You will remain over until to-
morrow and they will arrange a place for you tonight.
Senator McNamara. Will you call the next witness.
The Chairman. Will the witness please return to the stand a
moment ?
I regret to interrupt. l)ut the Cliair did not hear all of your testi-
mony. I had some other matters to attend to at the moment.
Did I understand you get only 4 cents a car for washing a car?
Mr, Wadlington. Yes, sir. It all depends on how many is in the
gang or on the line. Yesterday there was seven. I made a little better
than 4 cents,
Tlie Chairman. But the employees get about 4 cents for washing
a car ?
Mr. Wadlington. We get 40 cents on the line. If there are 10 of
us we will make 4 cents a car. If it is less, we make a little more
on a car.
The Chairman. In other words, Avhoever Avashes the car gets 40
cents?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
The Chairman. What do they charge for washing a car ?
Mr. Wadlington. One dollar.
The Chairman. They charge a dollar ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
The Chairman. So they make 00 cents for an investment of 40 cents
in wages.
Mr. Kennedy. I think we might explain.
The Chairman, I don't understand it, I can't understand these
folks that go around and picket other ])eople's places and make them
join a union setting up a plant like that, paying a wage that will
amount to about a dollar and something a day — $1,60 a day as a
maximum — if that is not exploitation of labor from those who profess
and who should try to protect labor, I don't know what exploitation is.
You have no other job. You have no other means of a livelihood?
Mr. Wadlington. That is right.
The CHAiR:\rAN. They are taking advantage of you ; this man Ziggy
Snyder is taking advantage of you in that fashion; is that correct?
Mr. Wadlington. That is correct. Not only me. There is a lot
more others.
The Chairman. How many others ?
Mr. Wadlington. Sometimes it is 10, sometimes 7, sometimes 5.
Some guys don't come back after the first time.
The Chairman. The only reason you come back is you would rather
do that rather than not eat.
Mr. Wadlington. That is right. I am staying with a friend of
mine and rather than staying at tlie house I go down there.
Mr. Kennedy. You had some money when you left Kentucky ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 5531
^Ir. Wadlixgton. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have used that up ?
Mr. Wadlington. That is rio-ht.
Mr. Kennedy. You have not been able to live on a dollar a day ?
Mr. Wadlington. That isrioht.
]\Ir. Kennedy. You have had to use the money you brought from
Kentu-'ky ?
Mr. Wadeington. That is i-iaht.
Mr. Kennedy. It is about all ooue ?
]Mr. Wadlington. It is about all oone.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. "Wadlington. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Avhether he knows or not about your
predicament ?
]Mr. Wadlington. Xo, sir.
3.1r. Kennedy. We interviewed a large numl^er of people similar to
Mr. AVadlington and his is not a unique case. He is in a position that
is not peculiar at all in Detroit. It was of particular interest to us
after the investigation we made in Xew York City and we found that
the car Avashers there were being paid a small price or small salary and
it was the result of a sweetheart contract made with the union.
But it in no way compares with the salary that these people make in
Detroit as far as the car washers are concerned. It is far less in De-
troit than even these people made in Xew York who were the employees
of a company that had made a sweetheart contract. Obviously, the
union knew about this situation, Mr. Chairman, because Mr. Welch,
the union official, suggested to another company that he send his cars
to tliis place, Mr. Zigmont Snyder's place.
The union and union officials knew about this and knew it was not
nonunion. These are people that are operating in Detroit and are
closely related and associated with ^Iv. James Hoffa.
Senator McXamara. I wanted to ask the witness if he knows
whether this 60-40 arrangement is the general arrangement in the
car- washing business ?
]Mr. Wadlington. I don't know that.
Senator McXamara. We Avill have somebody else who may know.
Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have an affidavit in connection
with this car wash that I would like to have read into the record.
The Chairman. Someone read it into the record.
Mr. Salinger. This is the affidavit of Carl Davenport.
Carl Davenport, being first duly sworn, deposes and says that he resides at
2660 St. Joseph, Detroit, Mich. ; that he is married and has four children ; and
has personal knowledge of the facts herein stated.
Deponent further says that on or about the opening day, when the Fort Wayne
Manor Auto Wash, at the southeast corner of Cass and Temple, opened for busi-
ness, deponent answered the sign "car washers wanted," and was employed as
a oar washer ; that Mr. Zigmont Snyder, one of the owners, gathered all of the
men together and said, "This is a union house. You will each receive a daily
guaranty of $4 and the men on the line will split 45 cents per car."
Deponent was not asked to sign any union membership application card, and
deponent is not a member of any auto-wash union.
Deponent further says that on the first day deponent worked, the line consisted
of 11 men, working from 7 : 30 a. m. to 7 p. m., and 8.5 cars were washed on that
day, as they were told. Deponent received .$4 for his work for that day.
5532 EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
On the second day deponent and other employees were told that 65 cars were
washed, and he again received $4 for that day, working from 7 : 30 a. m. to 7 p. m.
On the third day, between 35 and 40 cars were washed, as to the best of this
deponent's recollection, and this deponent received $3 for his day's worli, from
7 : 30 a. m. to 7 p. ni. Thereafter, deponent missed working several days.
Deponent reported for work on several rainy days, but was told to go home
and was paid nothing except on a couple of occasions the line boss gave deponent
25 cents "for carfare."
On Wednesday, August 15, 1956, the line consisted of 5 men, washed 50 cars,
and deponent was paid $2.50 for working from 7 : oO^a. m. to 7 p. m.
Deponent further says that on Thursday, August 16, 1956, a line consisting of 6
men washed 55 cars and deponent received $2.10, for working from 7 : 30 a. m. to
7 p.m.
That on Monday, August 20, 1956, deponent worked with a line of 5 men. from
7 : 30 a. m. to 7 p. m. and received $2.50.
Deponent further says that on Thursday, August 23, 1956, he went to work
and w^as told there was no work and was paid nothing.
Deponent further says that in addition to the men on the line mentioned above,
the said auto wash had 3 regular salaried men, who were paid by the week.
Further deponent says not.
/s/ Carl Davenport, Deponent.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 23d day of August, A. D. 1956.
/s/ Mary Axx Wklics,
Notary Public, Wayne County, Mich,
My commission expires February 9, 1959.
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kexxedy. Mr. Joe Lewis.
The Chair3iax. Is your name Joe or John ?
]Mr. Lewis. Neither.
Tlie Chairmax. What is it ?
Mr. Lewis. Clinton.
The Chairmax^. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this select committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
TESTIMONY OF CLINTON LEWIS
Mr. Lewis. I do.
The Chairmax'. State your name.
Mr. Lewis. Clinton Lewis.
The Chairmax'. Where do vou live ?
Mr. Lev/is. 1335Ettley.
The Chairmax". WTiat city ?
Mr. Lewis. Detroit.
The Chairmax^. What do you do ?
Mr. Lewis. I work in a Simoniz department at the Hackwax wash
rack.
The Chairman. How long have you been working there ?
Mr. Lewis. A year this past March 23.
The Chairman. Two years past?
Mr. Lewis. A year this past 23d of March.
The Chair]vian. The 23d of March you had been working there a
year ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The ChairjMan. And you are still working?
Mr. Lewis. I was working in the wash department until February.
The Chairman. You have a right to have a lawyer while you testify.
Do you think you need a lawyer ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 5533
Mr. Lewis. Xo ; I doirt think so.
The Chairiiax. If you need one, you call on nie, I will try to help
you. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Lewis, the car wash, liackwax, is a union shop ;
is it not ? You are a member of the union ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes, supposed to be.
Mr. Kennedy. The teamsters union?
Mr. Lewis. Yes; it is all affiliated.
Mr. Kennedy. Local 985 ?
]Mr. Lewis. Yes.
]Mr, Kennedy. Did you ever attend a union meeting ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you ever notified about a union meeting?
^Ir. Lewis. Xo.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever receive notification of any kind that
you would have a meeting at the union hall ?
^Ir. Lewis. I have not.
Mr. Kennedy. Are clues paid by you to the union ?
Mr. Lewis. Through the boss. He deducts 10 cents.
Mr. Kennedy. Plow much do you pay to the union ?
Mr. Lewis. He deducts 10 cents each day.
Mr. Kennedy. That is deducted from your salary ?
Mr. Lewis. Each employee; yes.
INIr. Kennedy. Ten cents a day that you work ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. If you work 7 days a week, that would be 70 cents.
For that 70 cents a week, what is the salary that you receive from this
union auto wash ? LIow much do you receive a week, approximately ?
Mr. Lewis. The most I have ever drawn, the department I am
working in now, is $18.
Mr. Kennedy. That is a good week for you ?
]Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. For the services of getting you that $18 a week for
a 7-day week, how many hours a day do you work?
Mr. Lewis. I work from 8 in the morning until 6 at night. In that
department I work in. I am in the Simoniz department. When I
first started working I worked in the wash department.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you make in that department?
Mv. Lewis. The most I ever made was $80.
Mr. Kennedy. You made $30.
Mr. Lewis. Yes; that was before the union.
Mr. Kennedy. You are making less now since the union came in?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You were doing better before ?
]Mr. Lew^s. On the wash rack side I was.
Mr. Kennedy. You work for 10 hours a day ?
Mr. Lewis. Fi'om 8 until 6.
Mr. Kennedy. That would be 7 days a week ?
Mr. Lewis. No; 6 days in the Simoniz department.
Mr. Kennedy. For 60 hours a week you make $18 ; is that right ?
Mr. Lewis. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is about 80 cents an hour.
Mr. Lewis. I ])resume so.
5534 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And tlie union deducts 10 cents a day out of your
salary ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have an}" other deductions ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What?
Mr. Lewis. Social security, and 55 cents a week for my uniform.
Mr. Kennedy. And the company deducts that; is that right?
Mr. Lewis. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You have never been to a union meeting or ever
notified about a union meeting?
Mr, Lewis. I haven't as yet.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you vote for the delegates that are going to the
convention in Miami ?
Mr. Lewis. Pardon?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you vote for the delegates?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Mr. Kennedy. That are going from your union to Miami ?
Mr. Lewis. You say did I vote for them ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lewis. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever vote for any union official ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Ml'. Kennedy. Did you know that your union was sending a dele-
gate down to Miami ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
]\Ir. Kennedy. You knew nothing about that ?
Mr. Lewis. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know where the union hall is ?
Mr. Lewis. It is on the West Side someplace. I have never been
there. It is on 23d Street, I think.
Mr. Kennedy. Has any union official ever spoken to you?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Never has ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You still pay 70 cents a week ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The Chairman. How did you happen to join the union ?
Mr. TvEAvis. I joined when I was working at St. Claire Shores. That
was on the 22,000 block on Mack Avenue.
The Chairman. How long have you been a union member ?
Mr. Lewis. About 2 years now.
The Chairman. Someone spoke to you when you first joined? I
understood you were making about $30 a week before you joined the
union and now you are only making $18. Can you explain that?
Mr. Lewis. I don't know unless it is because the union is in there^
He l^ays tliem less now than he did before.
The Chairman. Since the union came in you get less ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The Chairman. Does that apply to all the employees?
]Mr. Lewis. Most of them.
Tlie Chairman. It applies to most of them?
Mr. IvEWis. Yes.
The Chairman. How many are there ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5535
Mr. Lewis. Around the neighborhood of 35 or 40 on both sides, in-
cludine: the Simoniz department. There are only 13 in my department.
The Chairman. About 13 in your department and 35 to 40 in all ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The Chairman. Is this true : That you are getting less money now
since the union came in? Is that true Avith respect to all of the 13 in
your de])artment '(
Mr. Lewis. No; their salaries vary. Some makes more. I am guar-
anteed $t^l a week, supposed to, but I have never made it. $25.
The Chairman. You were guaranteed about $25 a week?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The Chairman. But the biggest week you have had lately is $18?
Mr. Lewis. That is right.
The Chairman. Are there others tliere drawing only $18 a week ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The Chairman. How many, do you know?
Mr. Lewis. There is about 2 or 3 of them.
The Chairman. Two or three of them drawing the same amount you
are?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The (Chairman, Were they drawing more before the union came in ?
Mr. Leavis. No, they was not working for the company when they
first started. They started this Simoniz department.
The Chairman. They started late (
Mr. IjEwis. In the Simoniz department ; yes.
The Chairman. I just want to get it straight. I don't Avant you to
misrepresent anything. Is it generally true that in this place where
you M'ork, since the union came in most of the people who work there
are getting less than they did before the plant became a union estab-
lishment ? Is that true or not ?
Mr. Lewis. Some make moi'e than others.
The Chairman. I know some make more than others. They did
that before the union came along. What I am talking about is, since
the union came has it had the efl'ect of reducing your Avages ?
Mr. Leavis. As far as my part is concerned, it has.
The Chairman. It is certainly true as far as you are concerned?
Mr, Lewis. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you knoAv of others? Has it had the same
effect on others to reduce their Avages ?
Mr. I^eavis. Yes.
The Chairman. You can't tell us how many ?
Mr. Leavis. Not exactly.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I might say in that connection that
a number of the auto AA\ashes aa-c interA^eAA-ed, the employees and man-
agement, AA'e found this situation to be true in a number of different
places.
The employees Avere making moi-e prior to the time that the union
came in. It is not unique Avith this gentleman, Mr. I^ouis, in Detroit.
Senator McNamara. Do you have a union book ?
Mr. Leavis. No.
Senator McNamara. Do you have a union card ?
Mr. Leavis. No.
Senator McNamara. Why do you think you are a union man ^
Mr. Leavis. Because I signed one of the slips.
5536 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
Senator McNamara. You signed on the slip ?
Mr. Lewis. Where they caine to the phice I am working now I
didn't need to sign any more.
Senator McNamara. You signed a slip that you would join the
union ?
Mr. Lewis. Sure.
Senator McNamara. You don't have any card ; you don't have any
book ; you don't get notified of any meeting ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Senator McNamara. You don't know the number of the union
you belong to ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes ; 985 I think it is.
Senator McNamara. You didn't know when you started, but some-
body told you the number here ?
Mr. Lewis. He mentioned it here.
Senator McNamara. You think that is the right one ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes. I think so.
Senator McNamara. I think maybe you just think you are a union
man.
Mr. Lewis. Probably so.
Senator McNamara. You don't have any book ; you don't have any
card; you don't have any identification of anything. You are not
notifietl of any meetings.
Mr. Lewis. No, I have not as yet.
Senator McNamara. Who tells you to put the dime a dav in the
box?
Mr. Lewis. Pardon ?
Senator McNamara. You put a dime a day in the box ?
Mr. Lewis. No, he deducts out of our salary.
Senator McNainiara. ^Ylio deducts it ?
Mr. Lewis. Generally Suskey.
Senator McNamara. You think he pays it to someone or do you
know it ?
Mr. Lewis. I wouldn't swear it.
Senator McNamara. Have you seen someone come around and
collect ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Senator McNamara. I don't understand it either, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness another question.
Do you get paid by check ?
JNIr. Ijewis. Yes.
Senator McNamara. Does it show "Union dues — 70 cents a week*' ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Senator McNamara. Do you get paid every week ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
Senator ]\IcNamara. It doesn't show a union deduction every week ?
Mr. Lewis. No.
Senator McNamara. All riglit.
The Chairman. The Chair is advised that we have an investigator
in that area. I have instructed that the investigator check with this
place where you work and some others to determine whether this is
just a shakedown of you by your employer or whether the money that
he collects or deducts from your wages is transmitted to some union
and to what imion. So we are going to find out.
EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5537
You know that you don't get the 70 cents. You know you don't
get it?
Mr. Lewis. No.
The Chairman. It is deducted from your wages ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The Chairman. You understand it to be your union dues ?
Mr. Lewis. That is right.
The Chairman. That is what you have been told ?
Mr. Lewis. Yes.
The Chairman. If it is deducted, you know it is deducted, then
that money either is being withheld by your boss, by the management
that you work for and is a shakedown in that fashion, or it actually
goes to a union. So we are going to find out.
I just wanted the record clear. We will pursue it further.
Thank you, you may stand aside.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have one more witness on a
different matter. It is in connection with the prior testimony of Mr,
Fitzsimmons, and his statement about his relationship with Mr. How-
ard Craven. I don't believe this witness will be too long and we
will be finished for this afternoon.
The Chairman. Mr. Craven, come around. Will you be sworn?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Craven. I do.
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name.
TESTIMONY OF HOWAED C. CRAVEN
Mr. Craven. Howard C. Craven.
The Chairman. Where do you live ?
Mr. Craven. 607 Maple Valley, Raleigh, N. C.
The Chairman. What business are you in or what is your occu-
pation ?
Mr. Craven. I didn't hear that.
- The Chairman. What do you do ? What business are you in ?
What is your occupation ?
Mr. Craven. I did have a motion-picture film delivery and the litho-
graphing that you see in some of the theaters in Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Craven is hard of hearing. Maybe it would
be well if Mr. O'Donnell, who interviewed him before, would sit with
liim and relay the answers and the questions.
The Chairman. We have difficulty hearing and understanding you,
too, so we are going to have some assistance. Mr. O'Donnell will
sit by you and help both of us.
(At this point. Senator Mundt returned to the room.)
The Chairman. State again what you do. What is your work ?
Mr. Cra\t2n. I am a watchman right now.
The Chairman. Counsel, will you take over and interrograte the
witness ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Howard Craven operated a com-
pany called Theater Trucking — no, what was the name of the com-
pany?
89330 — 57 — pt. 14 17
5538 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. O'DoNNELL. Exhibitors Service Co., in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. During 1940. He testified before the Hoffman com-
mittee regarding an incident or a series of incidents that he had with
Mr. Fitzsimmons who is a business agent of the teamsters local in
Detroit.
Mr. Fitzsimmons when he testified was asked some questions about
his relationship with jNIr. Craven. He was asked wliether Mr. Craven
was forced to give him 90 percent of his business in order to avoid
having any labor difficulty.
(At this point, Senator INIcNamara left the room.)
Mr. Kexxedy. Mr. Fitzsimmons denied receiving 90 percent of
Mr. Craven's business, and he also denied knowing anything of the
details of it although he was present when the contract was signed.
We have asked Mr. Craven to come here and testify about the relation-
ship that he had with ISlr. Fitzsimmons. Whether he did in fact
pay Mr. Fitsimmons any money and whether Mr. James Hoffa was
aware of the fact that he was paying Mr. Fitzsimmons money and then
Mr. Fitzsimmons had an interest in tliis business.
First, I want to ask j^ou whether jou ever paid Mr. Fitzsimmons
any money ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Fitzsimmons in fact come to you, as the
business agent of the teamsters, who was the business agent for your
business, and say that he could get all the business in Detroit in this
field for you if you would turn over 90 percent of your business to
him in one phase of it ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, he did.
Mr. Kennedy. He did come to you and say that ?
Mr. Craven. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. He denied that before the committee. You say he
did come to you and say that ?
Mr. Cra\ten. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. He was also asked about the fact that this 90-per-
cent arrangement continued, but that then he became dissatisfied
with the amount of money you were turning over to him.
Mr. Craven. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he become dissatisfied with the amount of money
3^ou were turning over to him ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, he did.
Mr. Kennedy. He asked to have a review made of your books to
make sure he was getting his full 90 percent ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it true that he did ask to see your books ?
Mr. Craven. Yes. There were books that I had been keeping my-
self as part of the regular custom of business books. He was dis-
satisfied with them and also Mr. Hoffa looked at them at the same
time.
Mr. Kennedy. He wanted to see the books ?
Mr. Craven. They told me to bring the books to the teamsters'
headquarters.
Mr. Kennedy. You went to the teamsters' headquarters with the
books ?
Mr. Craaten. On Trumbull Avenue in Detroit.
DilPBOPER ACTR ITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5539
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Fitzsimmons examine the books ?
Mr. Cra\t:n. Mr. Fitzsimmons and Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa was there, too ?
Mr. Craven. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. So he knew about this arrangement at that time ?
Mr. CRA^^:N. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Fitzsimmons also arrange for Mr. Rosen
to examine the books ?
Mr. Craven. He was dissatisfied with the books and then he said
he would have his own man look at them and take care of them. HQs
own man was a man by the name of Rosen.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he was dissatisfied with his review of the
books and lie would have his own man, Rosen, review them ?
Mr. Craven. That is right. He said Rosen. He said Rosen would
look at them the way he wanted them to be looked after.
Mr. Kennedy. This was Mr. Fitzsimmons that said that to you ?
Mr. Cra^'en. Yes, in the presence of Mr. Hofl'a.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Rosen then come and review your books ?
Mr. Craven. Yes. He called Mr. Rosen down to the union head-
quarters on Trumbull Avenue in Detroit and called me up there at the
same time with the orders to bring the books with me. That was a
meeting between Mr. Fitzsimmons, Mr. Rosen, and myself. Then
Mr, Rosen took the books from me by Mr. Fitzsimmons' orders.
Mr. Kennedy. And he kept the books from then on ?
Mr. Craxen. Mr. Rosen kept the books and said he would fix them
up the way he wanted, whicli he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have another argument subsequently with
Mr. Fitzsimmons ?
Mr. Craven. Did I have what ?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have more difficulty with Mr. Fitzsimmons ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he as a business agent of the teamsters call a
strike on you?
Mr. Crax-en. Yes. He called a strike on me on several of them.
Strikes, I mean.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you forced out of business ?
Mr. Craven. They practically run me out of business, or where I had
to sell the business for practically what I could get.
Mr. Kennedy. How much had you been making per year from that
company ?
Mr. Craven. My average was around $2,000 a month. It used to
average me around $24,000 to $26,000 a year.
Mr. Kennedy. You were foi-ced b}^ this strike led by Mr. Fitzsim-
mons out of business ?
Mr. Craxt:n. That is right. Ma' selling price I finally managed was
$7,000 for the business, and including the trucks.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you sell the company to ?
Mr. Craven. A man by the name of Simpson.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that Mrs. Hoffa in her maiden
name formed a company- and took over this same kind of business
subsequently?
Mr. CitAx^N. You mean took over my business ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
5540 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES HSF THE LABOR FIE1.D
Mr. Craven. No ; I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if they formed their own company ?
Mr. Craven. A man by the name of Staley was supposed to be the
son of some business agent connected with that union. The business
practically was all turned over to Staley.
Mr. Kennedy. You went out of business completely ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money had you turned over to Mr. Fitz-
simmons during this period of time ?
Mr. Craven. How much money did I pay him ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, approximately.
Mr. Craven. Otfhand as a rough guess I imagine I paid him around
three to four to live thousand dollars or more.
Mr. Kennedy. During what year ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, because he kept draining me. He kept coming
to me and wanted $300 or $500. He wanted $400.
JNIr. Kennedy. What year would that be ?
Mr. Craven. That was either 1946 or 1947.
Mr. Kennedy. But you definitely gave Mr. Fitzsimmons some
money ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, sir; I wrote checks for them. When he asked
me for it, I wrote out the checks with his name, personal name. He
refused the checks. He says, *T don't want that check with my name
on it. Write it out cash, or write it out to my son. Put my son's
name on it or put another friend of his on, Johnny Curran." But
the money was turned over to Fitzsimmons. At the last Fitzsimmons
came there, he wanted $500. He demanded $500. I didn't have it
because he had me drained.
Senator Mundt. What did he say the $500 was for ?
Mr. Craven. Nothing, only he was — like blood money, in other
words. For getting business, as he called it. He wasn't getting
me business. I had to go out and solicit my own business among
the theatrical trade.
Senator Mundt. Is it your testimony that when you quit making
these payments they then picketed you and put you out of business ?
Mr. Craven. Yes.
Senator Mundt. You attribute the picketing to your failure to con-
tinue to make these payments ? Is that what you are telling us ?
Mr. Craven. I don't know. I never did find out. I asked Fitz-
simmons, what were they striking for. He says, "I don't know." I
asked the employees, what were they striking for. They said they
didn't know. That went on for about 3 weeks. All my trucks were
tied up. I couldn't do business. The theaters were closed down,
some of them, because they could not get motion picture film. I could
not find out what they wanted. Finally Fitzsimmon told them to go
ahead and go back to work, after he caused me a lot of extra money
by the insurance companies. All this film was on the trucks and
parked on the streets. The city authorities ordered that they be moved
off the street because they were a fire hazard. I had to make ar-
rangements with the fire department to park them in a vacant lot
and pay for the firemen to watch them.
Senator Mundt. You said these payments were made by check?
Mr. Craven. Yes ; they were.
■ IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5541
Senator Mundt. Have you kept the canceled checks ? Do you have
them?
Mr. Craven. No. Mr. Rosen destroyed a lot of them checks.
Senator Mundt. Do you remember what bank they were written
on?
Mr, Craven. He was keeping the books and he destroyed a lot of
the canceled checks.
Senator Mundt. Do you remember what bank they were written
on ? Do you know the name of the bank ?
Mr. Craven. The First National Bank on Six Mile James Cousins
Highway.
Senator Mundt. Have we tried to make microfilm copies of the
checks ?
Mr. Craven. I did see some photostatic copies of the checks at the
Hoffman committee.
Senator Mundt. It would be very important testimony if we can
corroborate it by checks, especially if they have been endorsed by Mr.
Fitzsimmons or if they have been made out to the son of Mr. Fitz-
simmons. If the checks are in evidence or available I think we should
try to get them.
Mr. Ivennedy. We were able to get one clieck. We got 3 or 4 checks,
but we were able to get just one that had Mr. Fitzsimmons' name on it.
That was the $500 check that INIr. Craven spoke of. It is endorsed on
the back with Mr. Fitzsimmons' name. We asked Mr. Fitzsimmons
about that check when he appeared here to testify, and he said he was
just cashing the check for another man.
Senator Mundt. I remember the testimony. Where did you get
that one check ? Doesn't the bank have microfilm ?
Mr. Kennedy. This came originally when Mr. Craven testified be-
fore the Hoffman committee. We got whatever records were available
there. Some of those are missing. This is the one that we could get.
He will continue to try to see what further information we can get on
the matter. We had not expected to call Mr. Craven originally, but
since Mr. Fitzsimmons' testimony we thought we should have Mr.
Craven in here to testify on his part of the arrangement.
The Chairman. The matter will be pursued further. All right,
Mr. Kennedy, any further questions ?
Mr. I^NNEDY. No ; I believe that is all at this time.
The Chairman. Wliat is this 90 percent of the business ? Why was
he to give 90 percent of the business? On the theory that Fitzsim-
mons would get him more business ?
Mr. Craven. I was forced to sign that under duress.
The Chairman. You were forced to sign the contract under duress
to give 90 percent of your business ?
Mr. Craven. Mr. Fitzsimmons forced me to sign that contract.
The Chairman. How did he force you ?
Mr. Craven. Through verbal enforcement. There was not any
physical enforcement. It was just threats, and so on, and telling me
what he woidd do. He would run me completely out of business right
then and there.
The Chairman. He threatened by strikes, and so forth, to run you
out of business if you didn't sign the contract to give 90 percent of
your business away ?
Mr. Craven.. That is right.
5542 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. After you gave 90 percent of the business away,
he was not satisfied with that ?
Mr. Craven. Yes. The contract was not signed under Fitzsim-
mons' name. It was signed by his stooge, John Curran. His name
appeared on our contract. It was ordered by Mr. Fitzsimmons' at-
torney, Mr. Mathieson. In Mr. Mathieson s office there was Mr.
Mathieson, Fitzsimmons, Curran, and myself. The contract was
wrote out and handed to Mr. Fitzsimmons for his proofreading. He
didn't like it. He made some changes in it. He demanded that one
of the changes was that 90 percent be put in there. Mr. Fitzsinmions
demanded that then and there. I hade quite a discussion and argu-
ment with him about that, but I lost out.
The Chairman. You lost out.
Mr. Craven. Yes.
The Chairman. So you had to sign to give 90 percent of your busi-
ness away.
Mr. Craven. 90 percent was put in the contract.
The Chairman. Do you have a copy of that contract?
Mr. Cra\T5n. Do I ? No, I do not.
The Chairman. ^Miat became of it ?
Mr. Craven. That there just disappeared with them papers that
Rosen had. He had a lot of papers.
The Chairman. Rosen took over all your papers and your contract
disappeared ?
Mr. Craven. Yes, that is correct.
Senator Mundt. I think our staff member is indicating he has a
Mr. () DoNNELL. It was put ni the record yesterday. Senator.
Senator Mundt. Does the copy contain this 90 percent provision
about which the witness is testifying?
Mr. O'DoNNELL. Yes. It is signed by John Curran and Frank
Craven and witnessed by Mr. Fitzsimmons.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You appeared before the grand jury in Detroit in
connection with this matter also ; did you not?
Mr. Craven. Yes. After I testified to the Hoffman committee, a
matter of I guess maybe 3 weeks or a month afterward, I testified in
front of the Wayne County grand jury, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversation with any teamster
official at that time ?
Mr. Craven. Yes. While I was waiting in the hallway to be called
into the jury room, I was sitting there and Mr. Rosen come walking
through there. He shot me quite a sarcastic look and told me I better
be careful what I had to say in there. I said all I could do is to answer
what questions they ask me. He said, "We will find out.*' He said,
"We will find out what you had to say." He said, "You better be
careful." It was just a few minutes after that when the sheriff called
me into the jury room. When I got through testifying I come out.
Mr. Rosen was out of the hall. The hallway was clear. He was not
in sight. I don't know where he was. After I came out of the
Hoffman testimony there, a United States marshal helped me out of
the building as Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Fitzsimmons met me in the hall
after I got through testifying.
The Chairman. ]\Ir. Hoffa and Mr. Fitzsimmons?
Mr. Cra^^n. Both of them.
EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5543
Mr. Kennedv. No. 1, you had this conversation with Mr. Eosen
prior to the grand jury, and you now are telling about an incident that
occurred after you testified before the Hoffman committee?
Mr. CRAVEisr. After the Hoffman committee. After I testified in
front of the Hoffman committee. As I came out of the room after I
left the stand, Mr. Hoffa was right outside of the door in the hallway,
which there was several other people in that hallway. Then Mr.
Fitzsimmons was also standing there and several other union men,
and Mr. Staley was another one. Mr. Hoffa started at me right away,
and wanted to know why I told — ^well, he used a vulgar word — lies on
the stand. I said, "I answered the truth and you know it." Fitz-
simmons came up and he called me another vulgar name and a liar.
It was getting so that I figured I better get out of there. The United
States marshal was there and I asked him if he would not walk out of
the building with me.
The Chairman. You called on the United States marshal to pro-
tect you ?
Mr. Craven. Yes. He was in the hallway outside. He took me
over to the elevator and down to the first floor, and there I waited
for a city policeman who took me over to a bus station. At that time
I was living in Ann Arbor, Mich. That is 40 miles from Detroit.
I got on the bus, but I left the bus before it got to Detroit and called
up and had Frank come and get me, because I was afraid to ride in
to where I lived. In fact, it had my wife and my daughter just in
fear of even the house afterwards. Even after I testified in front of
the grand jury, the Wayne County Grand Jury, after that testimony,
I was told that some of them union goons were in Ann Arbor looking
around. Whether they were looking for me, I don't know. That was
just hearsay. That was just stuff that was told me.
Mr. Kennedy. Thank you very much, Mr. Craven.
The Chairman. The committee will recess until 7 : 30 tonight and
then we will resume tomorrow morning at 8 o'clock if we do not
finish.
(At 5 p. m., a recess was taken until 7: 30 p. m., the same day.)
EVENING SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of tlie select committee at the convening of the session
were: Senators McClellan and Mundt.)
The Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, call your next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Beveridge, please.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you
shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God 'I
Mr. Beveridge. I do.
TESTIMONY OF B. B. BEVERIDGE
The Chairman. State your name and place of residence and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Beveridge. My name is B. B. Beveridge, B-e-v-e-r-i-d-g-e.
My legal residence is Palm Beach County, Fla., and my business
is transportation of automobiles from Flint, Mich., presently, and
Lansing, Mich., to Chicago, 111.
5544 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES DSP THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Thank you, sir. Do you waive the right to counsel
while you are testifying ?
Mr. BE^^ERIDGE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Beveridge, you were an official of Commercial
Carriers at one time ?
Mr. Beveridge. I was.
Mr. Kennedy. During what period of time ?
Mr. Beveridge. From 1933 until 1949.
Mr. Kennedy. What position did you have with them ?
Mr. Beveridge. I was vice president and secretary.
]VIr. Kennedy. They have their contracts with the teamsters union,
and you have contracts with the teamsters union ?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, l^'liat was Commercial Carriers ?
Mr. Be\^ridge. Commercial Carriers was a common carrier hauling
automobiles out of Detroit, Toledo, Evansville, Ind., and Flint, Mich.
Those were the origin points.
Mr. Kennedy. What unit of the teamsters did you have contracts
with?
Mr. Be^teridge. We had contracts with the unions in the boat line
from the port of Huntersville, Inch, to Memphis, Tenn., Evansville,
Ind., Cincmnati, at Flint, and Chicago, and I believe that was all.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have an overall contract ?
Mr. Be\tridge. We had a national contract to cover the entire
United States.
Mr. Kennedy. With whom was that contract signed ?
Mr. Be\^ridge. The contract was signed by a national joint trans-
portation committee.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Yho does the negotiating for them ?
Mr. Be\tsridge. The negotiations for the teamsters division would
be James Hoffa, and for the employers; the labor division for the
employees is Carney D. Matheson.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Matheson does the negotiating for the employ-
ers, does he ?
Mr. Beveridge. Well, actually, there is a committee of 11 rotating
carriers on each committee, and 11 for the different unions. That
seems to change every year except for the two chairmen.
]Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Carney Matheson is the one primarih^ respon-
sible for the negotiating ?
Mr. Beveridge. He is not primarily responsible, but he is the at-
torney for the J^ational Automobile Transporters Association.
Mr. Kennedy. Does he have any other position ? Does he hold any
other position with that association ?
Mr. Beveridge. No ; I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the one who actively conducts the negotiations
for the employers? I understand there is a committee, but the actual
negotiations are conducted by him ?
Mr. Beveridge. Well, he is the chairman of it each year ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And the negotiations are conducted with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Beveridge. As I say, there is a group. They usually set up in
a hotel in Detroit where they have a conference room for the 11 trans-
porters' committee, and another for the 11 negotiators for the union.
I
IMPROPER ACTIVITIE® IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5545
and another room for any of the teamsters' drivers that want to attend
or take part.
Mr, Kennedy. Now, you were vice president of Commercial Car-
riers up to 1949, and did you have some difficulties with the local imion
up in Flint, Mich. ?
Mr. Be\t3ridge. We did,
Mr. Kennedy. What brought about those difficulties, briefly ?
Mr. Be\^eidge. After the'war our company. Commercial Carriers,
and Commercial Barge Lines had to resort to lessors ; that is, people
that would own the trucks.
We owned all of the trailers. Prior to the war the haulaway
business or trucking business had been a very hazardous business.
We were limited with finances and we were spread out with a pretty
big operation for two small operators and in 1946, right after the war,
we had to go out and borrow $833,000 and in 1947 we had to borrow
$917,000, and in 1948, $857,000, and in 1949 before I sold the company,
seven-hundred-and-fifty-some-thousancl dollars, for around $31/0 mil-
lion.
Now, besides that financing job we financed barges to haul automo-
biles tow boats and all of that, and so our financing problem was the
reason we had a lessor deal with these lessors in Flint, Mich.
Mr, Kennedy. That was people that owned their own trucks; is
that right ?
Mr. Beveridge. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. They would go to work for you ?
Mr. Beveridge. They would actually own the trucks and the truck
was under our supervision. We would furnish the driver, if it wasn't
a driver-owner that was a lessor, and we would furnish the drive, and
he acted as an employee of Commercial Carriers.
Mr. Kennedy. So you wanted to end that arrangement and fur-
nish your own trucks and hire the drivers ; is that right ?
Mr. Beveridge. Well, what I started to tell you about, Mr. Ken-
nedy, was that in our overall operation in Gunnersville, Toledo, and
Evansville, and Memphis and Flint and Detroit, where we had all of
these trucks, we couldn't afford otherwise at the time, and we thought
it was prudent to use lessors.
We did have company equipment at Cadillac from the very start.
In 1947 we put some company trucks, 46 of them, up in Flint terminal
along with some lessors. Immediately we had trouble because the
lessors up there didn't want us to have company equipment. We
were trying to build up a company fleet as fast as we could. These
lessors became unmanageable, and they practically took over our busi-
ness, and they sabotaged our trucks, and it got to a point where we
might as well close up and be out of business.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Beveridge, I am not trying to get, nor is the
committee interested in why you wanted to change over your type
of equipment. We will just assume that you had a good reason that
you wanted to change it over.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. But is it a fact that you did want to change it over,
and that your employees, the people working for you and the team-
sters local up in Flint, Mich., began with objecting to it.
Mr. Beveridge, Yes, sir ; that is correct.
r
5546 EVIPROPER ACTR^ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And tliey called a strike among themselves ?
Mr. Beveridge. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. And as I understand it, they had a vote among
themselves and the vote was some 110 to 2 in favor of striking.
Mr. Beveridge. I don't know what the vote was. I know that
there was an illegal and unauthorized strike and they did go on
strike. We had a no-strike clause in our contract and these fellows
just took off.
Mr. Kennedy. And it was over this point of your wanting to use or
have 3'Our own equipment. Now, did you go up to Flint, Mich., to
attempt to settle that strike ?
Mr. Bea-eridge. Many times.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were unsuccessful ?
Mr. Be^t:ridge. I mean I was up talking to them many times before
the strike and trying to settle it. I talked to them.
Mr. Kennedy. You were unsuccessful ?
Mr. Bea-eridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And then did you talk to Mr. James Hoffa ?
Mr. BE^^:RIDGE. Not prior to the strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, during the strike ?
Mr. BE^^]RroGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You had conversations with him ?
Mr. BE^^>:RIDGE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And did he ultimately go up to Flint, Mich., to
attempt to settle the strike ?
Mr. BE^•ERIDGE. Yes, sir.
jNIr. Kennedy. And he spoke to the workers up there ?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And subsequently, did most of your employees in
Flint, Mich., go back to work ?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, there were 8 or 9 that were so-called ringleaders
who were not taken back to work, is that right ?
Mr. Beveridge. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. And there was also a problem not only about those
8 or 9 men but there was also a problem about the seniority of these
people coming back to work for you.
Mr. Be\'eridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. They wanted their seniority as they had it before,
and you wanted to represent them all as new employees, is that right ?
Mr. Beateridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, you had a number of
conversations with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Bea-eridge. Not a number; I had one in Flint, in the union hall.
Hoffa called my office in Detroit and asked that I come to Flint to the
Beach Street office of local 322, and I went up there.
Hoffa was in a meeting with practically all of our whole yard.
They were at the union hall, but there was approximately 20 of them
in the office with Hoft'a and J. C. Braden, the union business manager
in Flint.
I walked in there.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa took the trip up to Flint, and attempted
to settle the strike, or of these people going back to woi-k. He pro-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5547
claimed that the strike was illegal, and that these men should not have
gone on strike and they did go back to work.
But you, at that time, had these two remaining problems : No. 1, the
seniority, and No. 2, the refusal to take back the 8 or 9 employees who
were the ringleaders of the strike.
Mr. Beveridge. Now just let me correct one thing. I don't know
that Mr. Hoffa ever said the strike was illegal. The National Labor
Relations Board said it was illegal, and the Michigan Mediation
Board said it was illegal, and the Michigan unemployment compensa-
tion people said it was illegal.
I don't know that Hoffa ever said it was illegal. We said it was
illegal and unauthorized and we were threatening suit of the local 322,
the conference and the international in Indianapolis.
Mr. Kennedy. At least, according to the reports that we have, and
he might very well have been right, and again I am not arguing
whether it was illegal or legal, but he went up and he spoke to the
employees.
As I understand it, it was claimed to be a wildcat strike because
they did not have Mr. Hoffa's permission to go on strike at that time.
Mr. BEVERrocE. Well, the}^ would not have to have Mr. Hoffa's per-
mission. If you have a contract with anyone, whether it is a union
contract or anyone else, you are supposed to live up to it. We had a
contract with the international for a certain term of time and I don't
remember whether it was a year or 2 years.
Mr. KJENNEDT. Again, on that question, and on the question of the
legality, I understand that there is still pending suits against you
and against the union by some of these employees that went out at that
time.
Mr. Beateridge. Nine fellows are all suing for compensation and
have, but as late as September 12, of 1957, the Genessee circuit court,
Judge Gadola, has ruled that these fellows had no cause for action
and it was an illegal strike and that they were not to have compen-
sation.
Mr. Kennedy. Again, with the suits of some of these men still
pending, I am not again getting into that question. We have two dis-
putes. No. 1, the seniority and No. 2, taking these 8 or 9 men back
to work.
Mr. Beveridge. Well, seniority is no dispute any more.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time it was seniority that was a dispute.
Mr. Beveridge. We gave them their seniority back a couple of years
later.
Mr. Ivennedy. I am just talking about this time now, Mr. Bev-
eridge.
Mr. Beveridge. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Approximately, or during this period of time, or
shortly afterward, did you have a conversation with Mr. Bert Bren-
nan about setting up a company, about his being interested in setting
up a company ?
Mr. Be^-eridge. Not about setting up a compan3\ Bert Brennon
called me sometime in early April of 1949. At that time, I was presi-
dent of a small country bank in Cheboygan, Mich., named the Cheboy-
gan State Savings Bank.
5548 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES UST THE LABOR FIELD
We were taking in considerable amounts of lessor paper. We would
take earning assignments on tliis paper and make payments to the
banks.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Mr. Beveridge, could you just answer my questions?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't he come to speak to you about setting up or
having a company or establishing a company ?
Mr. Beveridge. No, he came to me for a loan on 10 or 12 Federal
trucks. That is what he came for.
Mr. Kennedy. "\V1io had the trucks at that time ?
Mr. Beveridge. I don't know.
Mr. Kjennedy. Well, let us examine what the facts are. The fact
is that the attorney for Commercial Carriers went down to Tennessee
and set up a company and the stock was issued to him, Mr. Wrape.
He then transferred the stock to Mr. Brennan or his wife, and to
Mr. Hoffa's wife in their maiden names.
Now, certainly that had nothing to do with you being an officer of
some bank.
Mr. Beveridge. Well, you asked me if Brennan came and asked me
to set up a company and he never did.
Mr. Kennedy. The arrangements were made subsequently for the
attorney for Commercial Carriers to set up this company for him,
were they not ?
Mr. Beveridge. I did not make any arrangements.
Mr. Kennedy. How did the attorney for Commercial Carriers, or
how did he happen to go down to Tennessee to set this company up ?
Mr. Beveridge. Well, in the first place, James W. Wrape happens
to be one of our attorneys and, in fact, at that time he was general
comisel and his home is in ]SIemphis, Tenn., and he has an office there
and in Washington.
Now, James Wrape testified — and that is all I know about it — in
the hearings in 1953, and he told me before that that he did not re-
member who did that, asked him to set it up. I did not ask hun to
set it up. Now, someone in Commercial Carriers evidently did, and
I am sure they did.
Mr. Kennedy. That is No. 1, and then the accountant for Com-
mercial Carriers kept the books for this new company that was set up,
isn't that true ?
Mr. Beveridge. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. And the books were kept in the office of Commercial
Carriers ?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Aiid the 10 trucks that Test Fleet originally had
were 10 trucks that had been first coming to Commercial Carriers.
Mr. Beveridge. No, they actually hadn't. I know that is the testi-
mony that Beidler testified in the hearings in 1953. Since that I have
investigated it, and they did not come from there. They came 3 from
a Dodge dealer, Vic George Co. in Flint, and 3 from Lippencott
Motor Sales, a GMC dealer, and 3 from Abelay Chevrolet.
Mr. Kennedy. Was not the transaction for the purchase of those
trucks arranged by the officers or you, of Commercial Carriers ?
Mr. Beveridge. I don't think that they were in this case. Many
times they were for lessors but I thought the other day when I was
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5549
talking to you in Detroit, I actually thought that they were taken out
of Commercial's pool of 25 or 50 trucks that they kept on hand all of
the time for these lessors.
Now, since that time I have found that these trucks actually did
come from these dealers.
I don't know that it is important or not, but they did this for all
lessors.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Now, the Commercial Carriers then made an ar-
rangement with Test Fleet, this company, to lease their trucks, did
they not ?
Mr. BE^•ERIDGE. They made a lessor contract, a standard lessor con-
tract, the same as thousands of trucks all over the United States, the
same as 379 other trucks of people that had 3 trucks or less, and the
same as 190 of the people that had a fleet of 3 or more. In other
words, 569 of our trucks were actually owned by lessors with the same
deal as Test Fleet.
Mr. Kennedy. But the determination as to whether there would be
a profit or a loss for Test Fleet, or for any of these companies, is made
by the lessor, is it not ?
Mr. Beveridge. I don't know what you mean by "determination of
a profit or loss."
Mr. Kennedy. It is the lessor's decision as to how many of the
trucks of Test Fleet he will lease, is that right? He can make the
decision ?
Mr. Beveridge. He could have 1 or he could have 20.
Mr. Kennedy. The lessor is the one who makes the determination as
to how many of the trucks of the various lessees will be used, isn't that
true?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. I^nnedy. So when Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan over this
period of approximately 6 years make some $125,000, that decision as
to the making of that profit is determined by Commercial Carriers, is
it not?
Mr. Beveridge. Well, not exactly. In the first place all of these
trucks have the same operating conditions, and circumstances, and
deal, and they can make money and it is a business chance, and a
chance of a business profit or a loss. They all have the same deal.
There are different drivers, but all pick their same loads, and this man
had no special runs and he went to different terminals, and I don't
think that that statement is true. I don't think it is a fair statement.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, Commercial Carriers are the ones that make
the decisions as to which one of the lessees are going to get which
business, isn't that right ?
Mr. Beveridge. No; Commercial Carriers was hiring trucks from
1946 through 1949, and even do it today, to work in different termi-
nals. They were out looking for business.
Mr. Kennedy. Your company made the decision that they would
take and carry Cadillacs, for instance, that this company would carry
Cadillacs?
Mr. Bea^ridge. Well, I didn't make that decision.
Mr. Kennedy. Your company made that decision ?
Mr. Beveridge. It wasn't my company. I will tell you, and I told
you in Detroit, I thought I explained it clearly, that this Test Fleet
5550 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
deal went to work some time in the spring of 1949, and we sold that
business in the summer or fall of 1949. I had nothing to do with the
earnings or where those trucks were or what they did after 1949.
When you told me that Test Fleet made $120,000, that is the first I
knew about it. I had nothing to do with Test Fleet.
Mr. Kennedy. I understood you did not have anything to do with
that once you left the company, but certainly once again the determina-
tion as to whether they are going to make money or not going to make
money, whether Mr. Hoff a and Mr. Brennan were going to make money
or not going to make money, is made by the employer, and was made
by you.
Mr. Be\^ridge. These trucks worked in Flint, and they worked in
Toledo, and they worked in other points.
Mr. Kennedy. And they always carried Cadillacs.
Mr. Beveridge. They did not always carry Cadillacs.
Mr. Kennedy. According to the records that we have examined,
and according to Mr. Biedler's testimony before the Hoffman com-
mittee, they always carried Cadillacs, and nobody should know better
than he.
Mr. Beveridge. I am under oath, and I know they did not carry
just Cadillacs.
Mr. Kennedy. "V^^len did they not carry Cadillacs?
Mr. Be\t5ridge, They had a few ones up in Flint, and they were
down at Toledo for a while, and they were at Evansville.
Mr. Kennedy. Xow, he kept the books, Mr. Beveridge.
Mr. Beveridge. Well, I am not quarreling with Biedler, but I just
say that Biedler's testimony in this case happens to be wrong.
Mr. Kennedy. How many months didn't they carry Cadillacs, then,
and was that the first 3 or 4 months ?
Mr. Beveridge. Well
Mr. Kennedy. You know. You said you knew that.
Mr. Beveridge. I don't remember whether it was 3 or 4 months. I
would say probably it was a year and a half.
Mr. Kennedy. During what period of time ?
Mr. Beveridge. The first year and a half.
Mr. Kennedy. And then they started carrying Cadillacs?
Mr. Beveridge. Then I understand they were assigned to Cadillac,
but I had left the company after that time.
Mr. ICennedy. They were not carrying Cadillacs during your period,
while you were there ?
Mr. Beveridge. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. But certainly you could make the decision as the
decision was made after you left, that they could carry Cadillacs, and
the decision could be made as to what their routes were going to be
and what kind of cars.
Mr. Beveridge. Anyone at Commercial Carriers, I imagine, Com-
mercial Carriers could have done anything they wanted and make
any decision, and as I say I did not have anything to do with them
going to Cadillac.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the point, that here it was the two leading
officials of a labor union, with whom you have your chief contracts,
and it is up to you to make the decision, or up to your company to
make the decision as to what kind of cars they were going to carry,
and their routes and how often they were going to operate, and there-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5551
fore whether they were or were not going to make a profit ; isn't that
correct ?
Mr. Beveridge. Well, they all made a profit, all 569 of them made
a profit.
Mr. IvENNEDY. The determination of the amount of profit and the
continuation of the profit is certainly being made by you and your
company ; isn't that correct ?
Mr. Beveridge. I don't get that last part, just what you said last;
I didn't get that.
Mr. Kennedy. In the first place, the contract could be canceled by
you.
Mr. Be\'eridge. It could be canceled by either party on 30 days'
notice.
Mr. KJENNEDY. On 30 days' notice you could cancel the contract.
Mr. Beveridge. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. The determination as to the kind of cars that would
be carried and therefore the profits that would accrue are made by
Commercial Carriers ; is it not ?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir ; these lessors operate imder the company's
supervision entirely, and they have nothing to say where they go or
where they are needed, and wherever the company puts them, that is
where they have to go.
Mr. Ivennedy. Well, the determination as to whether they will be
successful in business or not is made by your company.
Mr. BEVERmoE. That is right.
Mr. Ivennedy. Did you see anything that resembled to you a con-
flict of interest of going into that kind of business with two labor-
union leaders, with whom you had to negotiate contracts for your
company ?
Mr. Beveridge. At that time I didn't think there was a conflict of
interest.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not see anything improper about that ?
Mr. Beveridge. I certainly did not or I would not have had a lease
with them.
Mr. Kennedy. Looking back on it now, do you see there was
anything ?
Mr. Beveridge. In the first place, I never talked to Hoffa about
this thing, and this is all with Bremian and Bert Brennan had noth-
ing to do with any labor union that we ever had anything to do with.
I never had anything to do with the man in negotiations or anything
else. Now, he came to me in the first place for financing at the bank.
Out of that conversation I turned down his loan for these Federal
trucks and out of that conversation the deal came for him to have some
trucks as a lessor. Now, I can't tell you, and I just can't tell you
whether Brennan brought up about going to work as a lessor, or
whether I suggested it or not. But there certainly was no thought
of a conflict, or they would get any special treatment, or anything
out of it that 569 others did not.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't mean to tell us that you never knew Mr.
Hoffa was in the company ?
Mr. Beveridge. I did not know it at first.
Mr. Kennedy. You knew it then ?
Mr. Beveridge. I did not know it then.
Mr. Kennedy. You knew it subsequently ?
5552 UVIPROPER ACTIVITIES rNT' THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Beveridge. I knew it subsequently.
Mr. Kennedy. And your attorney knew it, and your accountant
Jiiiew it.
Mr. Beveridge. I did not know it until several weeks afterward,
who Alice Johnson and Josephine Poszywak, who they were.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you see anything there, once you found out t hat
Mr. Plolla was interested in this company, and that you had the de-
termination to make as to whether the company would, make a profit,
did you see then any conflict of interest %
. Mr. Be\^ridge. No ; I certainly did not.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not see anything improper ?
Mr. Beveridge. No, because Hofl'a was in no position to help our
company or to hurt us. We were in no position to get any benefits
at all.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't think Mr. Hofi^a can help or assist your
company ?
Mr. Beveridge. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't think so ?
Mr. Beveridge. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy-. He couldn't help the company ?
Mr. Beveridge. He could not put us out of business if he wanted to.
Mr. Ivennedy. He could not help or hurt a trucking company ?
Mr. Beveridge. No. 1 said he couldn't help or hurt us. We have
a contract the same as any other haulway outfit in the United States,
the same terms and everything. We had no reason to give Hoffa any
breaks.
Mr. Kennedy. What was his position as far as the employees with
whom you had the difficulty in Flints What was his position as far
as your reemploying the employees ?
xMr. Beveridge. What was his position ? You mean as a labor union
man ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Beveridge. He was a representative of the international from
Indianapolis.
Mr. E^ennedy. Was he trying to get these people back to seniority ?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes ; he tried to get them back.
Mr. Kennedy. He was always trying to get back the seniority ?
Mr. Beveridge. I don't say always. When this thing was discussed.
It was in the office of the National Labor Relations Board in Detroit,
and Hoffa insisted that they had to have their seniority back and de-
manded it.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that ?
Mr. Beveridge. Prior to December 27, 2 or 3 days.
Mr. Kennedy. Of what year?
Mr. Beveridge. 1948.
Mr. Kennedy. Right from that time he was demanding that these
people get their seniority back ?
Mr. Beveridge. When he was trying to settle the strike.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1948.
Mr. Be\t:ridge. When tliese fellows were trying to settle the strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he trying to get these 8 or 9 men their jobs
back, the ringleaders ?
Mr. Be\t]:ridge. He said we had to take them all back. I said I
wouldn't take them back.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5553
Mr. Kexnedy, He was trying to get them back ?
Mr. Beveridge. He was trying to get everybody back.
Mr. Kennedy. He was interested in having these people get their
seniority back?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. From 1948 on?
Mr. Beveridge. Not from 1948 on.
Mr. Kennedy. From January 1949?
Mr. Beveridge. Hotfa
Mr. Ivennedy. You just said at the end of 1948, I believe.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. From January 1949 on, he was interested in getting
their seniority back for them.
Mr. Beveridge. I didn't have anything to do with him. J. C.
Braden, a businessman in Flint, did.
Mr. Kennedy. You said he was interested and active in trying to
get their seniority back.
Mr. Bev-esidge. In the National Labor Relations Board in Detroit
prior to the settlement of the strike. I never had anything to do
with Hoffa since that date.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Would you identify this?
The Chairman. The witness will examine the document before him
and state whether he identifies it.
Mr. BE^^RIDGE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is it?
Mr. Beveridge. I recognize my two signatures. I have not read
what it says. Let me read it.
The Chairman. It is a letter, is it not ?
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
The Chah^man. A letter from whom to whom ?
Mr. Beveridge. It is to Carney Matheson of Matheson, Dixon &
Brady of North Flint, Mich., and signed by me as vice president and
general manager.
The Chairman. What is the date of it?
Mr. Beveridge. September 8, 1949.
The Chairman. The letter will be made exhibit No. 26.
(The letter referred to was marked as "Exhibit No. 26" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on pp. 5754-5755.)
Mr. Kennedy. This is :
Dear Carney : Tnnk Braytou has inisted on a meeting with me next Tuesday
to discuss tlie Flint situation.
That is what we have been discussing.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy (reading) :
We have had considerable rumors as to what is coming and I think it is abso-
lutely wrong for me to attend, hut have you go up representing the company.
Before you get into the meeting Spencer will be able to brief you on all
of the things that they probably will bring up. The Aarrasmith and Turner
rehiring is going to be demanded, but we have valid reasons for not rehiring
these two fellows and we positively refuse to do so unless we should lose a
decision with the conference grievance committee.
We have been informed by George Dixon's New York attorney friend that
he is starting suit for the drivers that we failed to hire back for different rea-
sons, basing his suit on prejudice. Jim Hoffa has told me to forget about
89330— 57— pt. 14 18
5554 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
it and not to be at all concerned, but it might be well for you to consider the
idea of having Tunk or his committee Ijrlug this as a grievance before the con-
ference. We have a strong enough case to win our point before a fair com-
mittee and their decision certainly should have some bearing on any proposed
lawsuit.
There will be some questions as to back pay for some dockmen up until last
December, but Tunk is now trying to make it back to 1947, which we are not
going to go for.
You should instruct Spencer regarding payment of vacation pay. Actually,
it appears we do not have a contract and it is Messrs. Hoffa and Brennan's in-
structions to treat all employees as new employees hired in after the strike,
which would mean payment on a 2-iiercent basis, but Tunk has informed some
of these drivers that they already have their seniority back and some of them
are expecting 4 percent.
So your statement and testmony that Mr. Hoffa was interested in
the employees, that he was interested in these two points, No. 1, that
the employees be hired back with seniority, and No. 2, that the ring-
leaders be hired back is absolutely incorrect as borne out by a con-
temporaneous letter that you wrote.
Mr. Be\t:ridge. No, that is not right. Prior to the strike Hoffa was
fighting for these fellows to go back. These 9 or 10 or 11 men that
were involved were giving Hoffa a fight in the settlement of this
strike and when the thing was settled in Detroit, Hoffa said then we
did not have to take them back and as far as he was concerned he had
given up trying. But prior to the strike in the settling of the strike
in the National Labor Relations Board he certainly did try to get
them back.
Mr. Kennedy. "WHiat were the dates of that?
Mr. Beveridge. It would be prior to December 27, 1948, and I would
say 3 or 4 days before.
Mr. Kennedy. You say after that he ended his interest in getting
these people back. I asked you a clear question, Mr. Beveridge, as
to whether Mr. Hoffa was interested.
Mr. Beveridge. He was interested in trying to settle the strike.
Mr. Kennedy. I asked you if he was interested in trying to get
these people reemployed with their seniority. You said "Yes."
Mr. Be\teridge. He was up to
Mr. Kennedy. You did not say up to any time.
Mr. BE^^RIDGE. I had nothing to do with Jim Hoffa since that
strike.
Mr. IvENNEDY. You had something to do with him in 1949. You
wrote this letter. Not only that, you said Mr. Brennan didn't have
anything to do.
Mr. Bea^ridge. That man happens to be my attorney. I was writ-
ing to him.
Mr. Kennedy. You were telling him what the situation was. No. 2.
you told us that Mr. Brennan didn't have anything to do with the
matter. When you had these discussions with him about setting up
Test Fleet and there you mentioned what Mr. Brennan's advice to you
was.
Mr, Bevt^iridge. I don't remember anything about Brennan ever
being at that meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. There it is in the letter.
Mr. Beveridge. It could be. I could be wrong as far as Brennan
being at the National Labor Relations Board meeting. That was the
onlv conversation I have had with Hoffa.
IMPROPER ACTRITIES IN THE L.\BOR FIELD 5555
Mr. Kennedy. Your testimony now is that Mr. Hoffa was not
interested after 1948 in having the Flint employees reinstated with
their seniority.
Mr. Beveridge. Hoffa didn't have anything to do as far as I know
with the Flint operations after that strike.
Mr. Kennedy. You quoted him here. I want to know what his
position was on it. You state now that he was not interested in hav-
ing these employees taken back with their seniority after 1948.
Mr. Beveridge. AAHien I say he had no interest, I mean he did not
ever talk to me or put the pressure on me or call me or ask me to put
them on after the National Labor Relations Board meeting.
Mr. Kennedy. Also he was not interested in having these 8 to 11
employees who had led the strike, to have you rehire them.
Mr. Beveridge. When you use the word "interested," I mean he
didn't put any pressure on us. That is what I mean.
Mr. Kennedy. That is of great significance to the committee and to
what we are looking into here. It was during the same period of time
that Test Fleet was set up for Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan. Here
you were involved and your company was involved in setting up a
lucrative business for Mr. Hofl'a, and at the same time he was involved
in a situation up in Flint involving members of the teamsters union.
There was an obvious conflict of interest not only for him, but also for
you.
Mr. Beveridge. Mr. Kennedy, the hiring of lessors anywhere in
our organization, the strike in Flint and the subsequent hiring of
Test Fleet as lessors had nothing to do any one with another.
Mr. Kennedy. Everybody will have to reach their own conclusion
on that.
The Chairman. Let me see about this. T^'^len was this Test Fleet
Corp. set up for Brennan's and Hoffa 's wives ?
Mr. Kennedy. It was set up on April 13, 1949, just 3 or 4 months
before this letter was written.
The Chairman. April 13, 1949. Wlien was it Mr. Hoffa was inter-
ested in having these folks taken back with their seniority ?
Mr. Beveridge. In December, just before Christmas 1948 when they
were out on strike.
The Chairman. 1948 Hofl'a was insisting on these people being
taken back with seniority.
Mr. Beveridge. He was trying to settle the strike.
The Chairman. Trying to settle a strike and insisting that they be
taken back with seniority in December 1948.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. April 13, 1949, Test Fleet Corp. was set up.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is for Brennan's wife and Hoffa's wife, as the
ow^lers of it.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And a contract with your company.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. "We see here in September, according to you, Sep-
tember 8, 1949, Jim Hoffa has told me to forget about it and not to be
at all concerned about taking them back with their seniority.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Those are the three instances.
5556 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He was contending for it in December of 1948
when he got his fleet company set up in his wife's name ?
Mr. Beveridge. No, no, no, no.
The Chairman. State the facts.
Mr. Be\teridge. He was fighting for these fellows back to settle the
strike.
The Chairman. Just a minute. In December 1948, he was con-
tending that these men should be taken back with seniority, is that
right?
Mr. Beveridge. To settle the strike.
The Chairman. I don't care whether it was to settle the strike or
fly to the moon. He was contending for them at that time to be taken
back with seniority. Is that correct?
Mr. Beveridge. That is right.
The Chairman. That is your testimony.
Mr. Beveridge. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The fleet company was set up on April 13, 1949,
and got a contract with your company.
Mr. Beveridge. When is that letter, Senator ?
The Chairman. The date is September 8, 1949.
Mr. Beveridge. September 8, 1949.
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Beveridge. I think, or I am sure that that Christmas of 1949
they had their seniority back.
The Chairman. I don't doubt it.
Mr. Beveridge. They got their 4 percent vacation pay.
The Chairman. Let us get three facts straight.
Mr. Beveridge. All right.
The Chairman. In 1948, according to you, Hoffa in the process of
trying to settle a strike was contending that 8 or 9 men, the leaders,
should be taken back with seniority. In fact, all of them be taken
back with seniority.
Mr. Be\t:ridge. That is right.
The Chairman. After this Test Fleet was organized April 13, 1949,
they got this contract with your company, the wives of Hoffa and
Brennan. Subsequently, September 8, 1949, you are writing a letter
to your attorney saying that "Jim Hoffa has told me forget about it
and not to be at all concerned."
Mr. Beveridge. That is what he told me.
The Chairman. All right. The men evidently were still con-
tending for it.
Mr. Be\t:ridge. No. Well, yes, they were, too.
The Chairman. That is right. So after Hoffa got this contract
in his wife's name and Brennan got it in his wife's name, something
happened that thereafter he was not contending for it and he told you
to forget about it.
Mr. Beveridge. The contract had nothing to do with it.
The Chairman. That is your statement. Those are the three
incidents.
Mr. Beveridge, They are not related in any way.
The Chairman. That is your statement, that they are not related.
Mr. Beveridge. That is true.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5557
The Chairman. But just hearing this testimony as you have pre-
sented it, wouldn't you think that the committee might see some
significance in it ?
Mr, Beveridge. Well
The Chairman. You admit that, don't you ?
Mr. Beveridge. No, 1 don't admit that. 1 say there was nothing
wrong, nothing morally wrong.
The Chairman. I did not say anything about wrong.
Mr. Beveridge. There was nothing illegal. These people had the
same deal as 569 others.
The Chairman. I have not said anything about that. It is a sig-
nificant coincidence of fact that should be inquired into, is it not?
Mr. Beveridge. It is a coincidence.
The Chairman. A coincidence.
Mr. Beveridge. A coincidence, yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions? If not, stand
aside.
Mr. Kennedy. We have one short witness in connection with the
company Mr. Ho if a was interested in. I would like to call Mr.
Bellino to testify on the examination of the books of Test Fleet. No,
examination of the books of the National Equipment Co.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Bellino, proceed.
TESTIMONY OF CARMINE BELLINO— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan had the J. & H. Sales
Co.?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And that was a trucking company (
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And that became the National Equipment Co., is
that right?
Mr. Belling. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And that was also a trucking company ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. It was in the maiden names of Mr. Hoffa and Mr.
Brennan's wives ; is that correct ?
Mr. Belling. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. National Equipment Co. leased its equipment to Mr.
William Bridge.
Mr. Belling. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Carney Matheson ?
Mr. Belling. Mr. William O. Bridge is one of the biggest truckers
in Michigan at the time ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He operated a major trucking company ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Carney Matheson was the chairman of the ne-
gotiating committee for all the truckers ; is that right ?
Mr. Belling. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And was a trucker in his own right ?
5558 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Belling. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Brennan and Mr. Hoffa had his company and
they leased their equipment to Mr. Bridge and to Mr. Matheson ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently, Mr. Brennan and Mr. Hoffa sold Na-
tional Equipment Co. to Mr. Bridge ; did they not ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. They sold that company to Mr. Bridge for $10,000 ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that correct ?
Mr. Belling. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell the committee from an examination
of the books of Test Fleet, according to that examination of the books,
what the value of National Equipment Co. was at the time that Mr.
Hoffa and Mr. Brennan sold that company to Mr. Bridge ?
Mr. Belling. According to the records of the National Equipment
Co., that is, their own general ledger and their own entries in their
own books, there was a deficit at the time that the company was sold
of $6,013.53.
In other words, it showed there was a deficit of a total of $7,013.53.
The capital stock was $1,000. So the net deficit was $6,013.53.
Mr. Kennedy. And that was at the time that Mr. Bridge, a trucker
in Michigan, paid $10,000 for this company; is that right?
Mr. Belling. It is according to these records ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. According to those records ?
Mr. Belling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, we are now going into a different matter in con-
nection with the local union 985 in Detroit, Mich., the union that is
now operated by Mr. William Buffalino and was formerly operated
by Jimmy James.
It might be remembered about that local that originally, or for a
period of several years, Mr. Hoffa's wife was on the payroll of this
local in her maiden name, and Mr. Brennan's wife was on the payroll
of that local in her maiden name.
I would like to have a staff member, Mr. Kaplan, explain to the
committee a little bit about how a jukebox union operates and what
its relationship is to the jukebox industry.
Mr. Kaplan.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mr. Kaplan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF AETHTJR KAPLAN
The Chairman. Wliat is your name ?
Mr. Kaplan. Arthur Kaplan, sir.
The Chairman. T^liere i? your residence?
Mr. Kaplan. Portland, Oreg.
The Chairman. Wliat is your present occupation or employment?
Mr. Kaplan. I am an assistant counsel to this committee.
The Chairman. How long have you been such ?
Mr. Kaplan. Since June. sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5559
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Kaplan. "Wliat I would like to do first is explain how the gen-
eral perspective of the industry is so we can see how a jukebox union
works generally. This is not specifically with relation to 985, but
with relation to the way most of them seem to operate as they have
been investigated.
There are 5 manufacturers of jukeboxes or coin-operated phono-
graphs, 4 of whom are preeminent. That includes Wurlitzer, See-
burg, Rockola, AMI, possibly Evans.
The Chairman. You mean there are 4 major ones and 1 smaller?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir. That about represents the entire coin-
machine phonograph industry.
Mr, Kennedy. Mr. Kaplan, before you go any further, you made
an investigation of this matter for some period of time prior to the
time you came on this committee ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You spent how many years investigating jukebox
locals ?
Mr. Kaplan. I made an investigation for the Federal Trade Com-
mission in 1953. I also investigated the Portland operation for the
attorney general of Oregon last year.
Mr. Kennedy. In 1953 you spent time for the Federal Trade Com-
mission looking into the employer groups and the unions, is that
right?
Mr. Kaplan. The manufacturers and distributors in each of the
major cities of the country, and they usually have only one distribu-
tor who is a franchised distributor or with an exclusive franchise.
This distributor sells the machines to persons who are known as
jukebox operators. Generally speaking, there is a passage of title
from here to there.
The Chairman. What is that ?
Mr. Kaplan. There is a passage of ownership title.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you mark what each one of those people are
called ?
Mr. Kaplan. These are operators. These are the distributois and
these are the manufacturers. At this level it changes, because these
people put the machines out into what they call locations which
would be the bar, the restaurant, the place you and I normally see
them on a rental basis.
They usually have an agreement orally, sometimes written with the
owner of that bar or tavern or grill that they will supply the proceeds
that are taken in by the jukebox. Sometimes it is a 50-50 split.
Sometimes there is a guaranty to the operator.
These operators will buy from any of the distributors from any of
the different manufacturers. Periodically, one manufacturer will
have a preeminent machine for that year.
Mr. Kennedy. Each manufacturer would have a different distribu-
tor ; is that right
Mr. Kaplan. Yes,
Mr. Kennedy. You have them all going to the same one. It might
be confusing.
Mr. Kaplan. I only took that as an example.
Mr. Kennedy. Each one has his own distributor ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, who is the exclusive distributor for that area.
5560 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN^ THE LABOR FIELD
On occasion — well, the interest of the operators is in seeing that
there is not continued pressure by the locations or location owners
to brin<^ in new machines all the time, because the machines are put
out the way they are in the car industry.
If they do this, they have to keep reinvesting in new models. In an
effort to do this, frequently the operator will slow down on his pur-
chase of new machines from the manufacturer's distributor. In an
effort to force the operators to buy new machines, the distributor will
sometimes short circuit the operator and not sell directly to him, but
go out and sell directly to the location or go out and rent directly to
the location by setting up a subisidiary or dummy operation such as
the operators themselves run.
Usually when enough of these machines get put out, the operators
will start to buy new machines, and the distributor will stop this.
One of the prime protections against this kind of a pressure by a
distributor has been the use of union powers to picket a location where
such a machine is being used if the union is controlled by the oper-
ators or the employers. This has happened in several cities.
Senator Mundt. Are the operators union men ?
Mr. Kaplan. Well, yes. The strange thing about these unions is
that they usually are started by operators and that they are usually,
in most instances, the majority of its membership.
In Detroit we have a prime example, because the union or the coin-
machine workers union that commenced at the end of 1944 and upon
which Mr. Hoffa's and Mr. Brennan's wives were, was in effect actually
started by the operators or the so-called employers of workers in the
industry.
This has been established almost beyond a doubt.
Mr. Kknnedy. You said that the use of the union could be to help
the operators stop the distributor from setting up a dummy ; is that
right?
Mr. Kaplan. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't there a second, even more important use that
the operators can make of the union ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes. The operators can do this: In the term they
frequently use. they "stabilize" their industry by using the union to
keep each other from infringing on their fellow operators' routes or
on their own routes.
In other words, they can stratify or rigidify any competition or
business. Once an operator has a certain number of locations that
belong to him, they are able if they enter into what they call an ethical
conduct of their business, not compete with each other and keep the
location who might want to get a better machine from somebody else
or get a better split of the profits from doing so.
They do this by sending a list of all their customers which they
call location lists to the union. One of their rules is that whenever
any fellow operator or any fellow member of their association wishes
to put a machine into another location, he will have to clear with the
union, and he does this by calling up the union, and the union will say,
"Yes, you can put one in there, because it is not a member of the
group," or "No, you cannot, because this man is in our union and
association."
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5561
They also use this same scheme to keep people from coming in or
from new competition from developing. If somebody else wants to go
into the business, that is.
The way this is enforced is by having the union picket the location
which then gets the new machine on the theory that the new machine
is going to be serviced by a nonunion operator.
Therefore, the union has a proprietary interest in seeing that the
bar does not get its beer or its supplies. If an operator continues to
do this, he will be read out of the association and become what is
known as an outlaw and thereupon, the union, if he has been previ-
ously a member, gives his list of locations to other members of the
industry, the other operators and saying "Go ahead and see if you
cannot solicit his spots."
They call this jumping a location. Whereas, the location was pro-
tected before by the threat of a possible picketing of the union, now
these locations are declared open ; that is, the locations owned by the
outlaw operator and these men can go in and attempt to solicit the
business.
If the so-called outlaw operator attempts to retaliate competitively
and go into the locations of the still persona grata operators, as soon
as he does succed in putting a machine in such a location, the union
will put a picket line around that place because it is not serviced by
a union operator.
The Chairman. The effect of the picket line is not so much from
stopping one from playing a machine as it is to set up a picket line so
that teamsters will not cross to carry in any supplies of merchandise,
beer, or whatever they are selling.
Mr. Kaplan. This is exactly true. It is underlined by the fact
that in former years the union that had jurisdiction or had most of
the members of this field were the electrical workers but the electrical
workers were not successful in keeping supplies from coming in,
whereas the teamsters were, being teamsters and having an affiliated
interest with the beer drivers and su.pply drivers.
For that reason in almost every part of the country the teamsters
have the coin-machine workers which have very little relationship to
a teamster occupation.
More recently, the technique has not been to put the picket line out,
but merely calling up the persons driving the beer trucks and inform
them that there is nonunion service on that machine and not to deliver.
This has been very effective. Additionally, as a further aid to
policing this, the locals will usually give out a teamster sticker which
is put on the machine. The association will have their own investi-
gators who will go around from location to location or from tavern
and restaurant to see if the machine does have such a sticker.
If it does not, then efforts are made immediately either to get that
location into the hands of a member of this group or else to otherwise
enforce by duress.
Mr. Kennedy. From your examination and investigation, what do
you find are the members of the union as far as employer or employee
groups. For instance, up there you say the operators are the ones that
are in the union.
Mr. Kaplan. Yes ; the peculiar thing about this is that the majority
of the membershp of most of these locals are employers.
5562 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, Kennedy. So, in fact, the formation of a jukebox local is not,
in fact, to benefit by wages, hours, and conditions an employee or
the working class, but it is as a method of enforcement in each city
for an employer group ; is that right ?
Mr. Kaplan. I have so found every place I have looked. I would
so conclude.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you found also that often people with criminal
records have taken an active part in this association and in the union?
Mr. Kaplan. I would say more so from the union official side ; yes,
sir.
Mr. IvENNEDY. But they are also in control of the operation and
distributing of these machines. There have been in many cities in-
dividuals with criminal records.
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, there have been, Mr. Kennedy.
The Chairman. Let me ask you another thing.
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir ?
The Chairman. What do these operators that have a union machine
or get the union stamp and get the union protection pay to the union?
They are self-employed people. They own the business.
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. They are not employees.
Mr. Kaplan. In many instances they do not have employees.
The Chairman. Sometimes it is just a one-man operation?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir ; I think probably in most instances.
The Chairman. But he belongs to the union and he gets a sticker or
stamp to put on his machine to show that he is a union man.
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And the machine is union ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He gets protection from the union?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes.
The Chairman. By reason of that?
Mr. Kapl^vn. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Since they are employers or self-employed, there
is no actual labor or emploj'ee or employer relationship at all; is
there ?
Mr. Kaplan. I have never discovered it, sir.
The Chairman. So the whole purpose of it is to create a monopoly
in that sort of business under union control. That is what it amounts
to; isn't it?
Mr. Kaplan. That is my conclusion.
The Chairman. You pay a tribute to the union so that you can own
and operate a machine though you employ no one except yourself.
Mr. Kaplan. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. And thus the union can protect you from competi-
tion. It can give you a certain number of locations and say they are
yours so long as you pay for each machine. I would like to ask, does
the owner, if he has a dozen locations, just pay one dues or does he
pay on the basis of the number of machines and locations he has ?
Mr. Kaplan. It has varied from time to time and in different places.
Currently, in most cities, it appears that they are now paying a
straight dues assessment.
The Chairman. What is that dues assessment ?
Mr. Kaplan. My current knowledge is only about Detroit where I
IjMPROPER ACn\'ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5563
have been recently working. There it is $20 per man per month.
The CuAiKMAX. $20 per month ?
Mr. Kaplax. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiRMAX. That is a tribute or just like paying a license to the
city government or some other government for the privilege of operat-
ing the machine ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes.
The Chairman. That is what it amounts to except that it does not go
to government ; it goes to a union.
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir. Even more than that. On the part of the
smaller operators, that is, the people with 10, 12, 15 machines, they pay
it not because they are receiving protection, because they periodically —
and over a period of time you can trace their loss of locations to the
favored operations, which the miion is able to do. They pay it only
because they know that if they stop now they would immediately lose
all their locations and they are afraid to stop even though they don't
feel they are really getting a full measure of protection.
Tlie Chairman. In other words, the union is in a position to say,
"We decided you don't need this location any longer. We will see
that someone else gets it."
Mr. Kaplan. They can do this.
The Chairman. In effect.
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. It is not only for the union, but for the employer.
Groups of employers that operate tliese machines, they find it advan-
tageous, do they not, to have this working relationship with the union
because they can keep their locations from being jumped, No. 1, and
they keep out competition from outside areas from coming in; isn't
that right?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is why, as you pointed out originally, many of
these unions are set up by employers themselves in order to make sure
that they have no outside competition. Isn't that right ?
Mr. Kaplan. As a matter of fact, I don't think we have ever found
a union that was set up as a result of employee action because gen-
erally speaking employees in this industry are relatively few compared
to the type of operation and their wages have always been comparably
higher than similar occupations in the area.
Mr. Kennedy. For instance, this local was set up and operated-
local 985 of the teamsters — operated originally by Jimmy James ; isn't
that right?
Mr. Kaplan. It was a predecessor union which was a Federal union
from the AFL.
Mr. Kennedy. The first teamsters union was a union operated by
Jimmy James ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, the first teamster union was also operated by
Jimmy James.
Mr. Kennedy. The local that was set up. Was there a sum of money
paid to an important teamster official by the employers to set that
local up in Detroit ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir. There was sworn testimony that the em-
ployers or the major operators in the Detroit area paid a man named
William Presser, who was a union official in Ohio, to come down at
r
5564 IMPROPER ACTTIVITIES I]SP THE LABOR FIELD
the beginning of 1945 to show them how to set up an organization that
would integrate a union and association for this purpose.
Mr. Kennedy. So the association members, the employers, paid to
William Presser, who was then a teamster official, $5,000 to set up this
kind of organization in Detroit ; is that right ?
Mr. KapixAn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. William Presser is chairman of the Ohio
Conference of Teamsters at the present time.
Mr. Kaplan. I believe so, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He is one of the chief lieutenants of Mr. James.
Hoffa ; is he not ?
Mr. Kaplan. That is my understanding.
Mr. Kennedy. Since that time he has been indicted.
Mr. Kaplan. He had been indicted several years ago for organizing
the same kind of a scheme among the tobacco and wholesale candy
jobbers in the city of Cleveland. I believe although the case pended
for several years that he was ultimately convicted and paid a fine.
Mr. Kennedy. Doesn't this control and operation lead also to the
control and operation of phonographic records ?
Mr. Kaplan. It could, if the operators continue to be vulnerable to
union pressures, if they are going to stay in business, or to union wishes.
The operators liave a great deal to do with the making of a hit. That
is, the jukeboxes do. The operators are major purchasers of the
phonograph records that are produced throughout the country.
Mr. Kennedy. Haven't there been instances where union officials
who have this kind of operation have gone into the business of manu-
facturing records ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes. As a matter of fact, in this investigation we
specifically found that.
Mr. Kennedy. Also, did we find that they then go into the control
of talent and singers themselves?
Mr. Kaplan. They could if they were successful in tlie control of
records ; yes, sir, because the talent is dependent on the record markets
in many cases.
Mr. IvENNEDY. As we get into this matter in Detroit — undoubtedly
we will have to get back to it at a later time — it branches into many
other areas because of its importance and control of tliis industry.
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, I believe it does.
Senator Mundt. You said Mr. Presser was indicted for trying to
establish a similar setup ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Was he indicted under the Sherman antitrust law?
Mr. Kaplan. I believe it was an antitrust indictment, but I think
it was under the criminal provisions. I am not certain of that. I
have not looked at that record for a couple of years.
Senator Mundt. I wonder in this Detroit action has anybody moved
in from the standpoint of restraint of trade violation ?
Mr. Kaplan. No, they have not, although it had been contem-
plated. Apparently the Department of Justice did not feel there was
enough evidence.
Senator Mundt. It seems quite obvious that if you can establish
a monopoly like that by union and management, it is a restraint of
trade of the first essence and a direct violation of the Sherman Anti-
trust Act.
EVIPHOPER ACTrVITIES IN THE liABOR FIEIiD 5565
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Let me ask you, which union do the workingmen
belong to? A jukebox has to get out of order sometimes and you
have to have a mechanic or electrician,
Mr. Kaplan". Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Do they belong to the same union ?
Mr. Kaplan. They belong to the same union because their em-
ployers have signed contracts putting them in the union.
Senator Mundt. Everybody working in the business belongs to this
so-called jukebox union?
Mr. E^PLAN. Yes.
Senator Mtjndt. If they are an owner or operator or nickel collector
or whatever it is ?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir. In Detroit there are exceptions. Two large
operators who have been fighting with the union for some period of
time, or Mr. Buffalino, who is presently the head of that union, have
asserted the right of their own employees to choose their own union
and they each have their own union. They refused to sign agreements
signing their employees into local 985. This is a relatively small seg-
ment of the entire industry in Detroit.
Senator Mundt. Perhaps just enough to induce the Department of
Justice to conclude that it did not have a complete monopoly.
Mr. Kaplan. Well
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to call Mr. Jimmy
James, who was the first one that had this operation in Detroit and
learn from him how this operation was set up.
Senator Mundt. Let me ask Mr. Kaplan one question.
Did your investigation go into the activities of the imion mem.bers
and union employees and union officials or did you simply limit your
investigation to the type of setup they had? I am trying to find
out, if in your inves(igation, you discovered any work performed
by Mrs. Hoffa or Mrs. Brennan.
Mr. Kaplan. As a matter of fact, this had already been explored
before a Wayne County grand jury. As I recollect, Mr. James him-
self testified there under oath that they performed no work. Ac-
tually, I might point out to make a fact more clear, they were put on
the union payroll for a period of about 9 or 10 months and received
between the 2 of them a total of $6,000 and Mr. James testified that
they were removed from that payroll only because he knew a grand
jury was being formed to investigate labor racketeering. He did not
want them to get involved.
Senator INIundt. They didn't go around and do any secretarial work
or answer the telephones or collect the nickels in the pockets of their
kitchen aprons?
Mr. Kaplan. According to Mr. James, they did not. I have one
letter I thought we might look at with reference to the testimony I
have just given. This was a letter that was sent by the president of
the Michigan Automatic Phonograph Owners Association to the
managing director of an association that was attempting to start up
in southern California.
This was on August 6, 1947, and the relevant part states :
At the present time the union is operating at about 98-percent efficiency in
holding locations for members.
5566 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES m THE LABOR FIELD
This directly from the mouth of the man who was the head of the
association,
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Jimmy James.
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. James. I do.
TESTIMONY OE EUGENE C. JAMES, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
H. GLIFEOKD ALLDER
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. James. Eugene C. James, 325 Leask Lane, Rural Route 2,
Wheaton, 111.
The Chairman. Your occupation, please, sir?
Mr. Allder. At this time, Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. Just a moment.
"Will you state your occupation or do you decline?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the question may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You may be right.
Do you have counsel present ?
Mr. James. Yes.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, please identify yourself.
Mr. Allder. Mv name is H. Clifford Allder, member of the bar of
Washington, D. C. My address is 403 Third Street WW.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Allder. At this time I would like to make a request of the com-
mittee, sir.
The Chairman. You may make it.
Mr. Allder. Currentl}' there is pending before the United States
grand jury, Chicago, 111., an mquiry being presented by Max A. Gold-
stein, Special Assistant United States Attorney General, looking into
union welfare fund abuses and alleged income-tax evasion by labor
officials, as well as other matters relating thereto, in which it is
inferred that an indictment may be presented against Mr. James.
Further, the United States Treasury Department is concluding its
investigation covering his income-tax liability for the years 1951 to
1955, inclusive, and it is further inferred that criminal proceedings
relating thereto are now under consideration.
He, therefore, respectfully petitions that liis examination before
this committee be deferred until there has been a disposition of these
matters.
The Chairman. The Chair will rule that a request based upon an
anticipated, probable, or sometime-in-the- future indictment for the
violation of the criminal laws of the country is not sufficient justifica-
tion to warrant the committee in deferring interrogation of witnesses.
If we should so recognize such requests where someone's income tax
may be under investigation or someone comes in and says, "I might be
indicted sometime in the future," then we would recognize and honor
a condition that would absolutely obstruct the progress of our work.
I do not know that anyone is going to be indicted. I am sure some
people will be indicted. There is always somebody violating the law.
ESIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' L.\BOR FIELD 5567
But to come in and plead to a committee like this that I may have
violated the law, or at least I am being investigated and, therefore, I
should not be required to testify, is not justification to warrant this
committee in honoring such a request. Therefore, tlie request is over-
ruled.
Mr. Allder. May I be heard further, sir ?
The Chairman. You may.
Mr, Allder. I have here a photostat of a letter dated July 8, 1957,
from the United States Treasury Department, Internal Revenue Serv-
ice, Regional Counsel, Room 1634, 17 North Dearborn Street, Chicago
2, 111., addressed to Mr. Eugene C. James, 325 Leask Lane, I^Hieaton,
111.
Dear Mr. James : This is to advise you that a report covering an investigation
of your income-tax liabilities for the years 1951 to 1955, inclusive, has been
received in this office. The advisability of recommending to the Department of
Justice that criminal proceedings be instituted for you for wilfully attempting
to evade and defeat the individual income taxes for the years 1951 to 1955,
inclusive, is currently under consideration by this office.
Before reaching any conclusion in this matter, this office desires to offer you
the opportunity of a conference for the purpose of receiving any explanations or
defenses which you may desire us to consider during our delibei'ations on this
matter. You are entitled to be represented at this conference by counsel, or if
you prefer, without counsel, by appearing in person on July 12, 1957, at 10 a. m.,
which has been set aside by this office for the conference, in the event such
conference is desired by you.
It is suggested that all matters which you intend to present in this case can
be presented at this conference. If there are any documents it will be neces-
sary for you to certify to their contents. If you are represented by counsel,
proper power of attorney for the years 1951 and 1955, inclusive, and in addi-
tion 5 authenticated copies, together with a fee statement, must be filed.
It is important that all matters to this office in connection with this matter
be addressed to Post Office Box FF, Chicago, 111.
Very truly yours,
Harold H. Hart,
Acting Regional Counsel.
The Chairman. What is the date of the letter ?
Mr, Allder. July 8, 1957.
The Chairman. What is the date for the hearing ?
Mr. Allder. July 12, 1957.
The Chairman. That date is past.
Mr. Allder. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. Was a hearing held ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Allder. There was a conference with an attorney who repre-
sented Mr. James at that hearing. It was only a discussion and it was
postponed. There has not been any since then, sir.
The Chairman. You have not been indicated, have you, Mr. James ?
Mr. Allder. He has not, sir.
The Chairman. I asked Mr. James. Have you been indicted?
( The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. All right, the request is overruled.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. James is of considerable interest to this com-
mittee. He has had a very long and distinguished career in the labor
movement, starting back in 1944 or so. He had his charter lifted.
5568 IMPROPER ACTTVITIES ENT THE LABOR FIELD
He refused to testify before the grand jury out in Detroit according
to the information that we have.
After his charter vras lifted, he was given a— a Federal charter was
lifted by the union official in charge of the area — he was then given a
charter "by iSIr. Jimmy HoU'a and" he set him up in Local 985 of the
Teamsters Union. Mr. James then placed Mr. Hotfa's wife and Mr.
Bert Brennan's wife on the payroll at $100 a week, although they
did no work.
He continued in that operation. Then he brought in Mr. William
Buffalino in the local. He was having trouble with gangsters and
according to the information we have, jMr. Bulfalino was to come in
and sort of assist and advise him.
Then Mr. Butl'alino took over the union and Mr. James left. Ac-
cording to our information this was early in 19-i9. At least according
to the record we have examined. Mr. James sold his house in January
1949. Nevertheless, Mr. James remained on the payroll of the team-
sters local, then operated by Mr. William Butl'alino, through 1951,
Mr. James then went to the laundry workers union and they were
having some difficulty down in Florida. So Mr. James and JMr. Ger-
ald Connelly, whom we discussed yesterday, went down to Florida to
try to organize some of the laundry operators down there.
According to the information and testimony given before a grand
jury in a trial down in Florida by a Mr. XewboM, Mr. Newbold was
liired by people associated witli Mr. James and ^Ir. Connelly, whom
Mr, Xe'wbold met down there and by whom Mr, Newbold was hired
to kill and shoot one of the laundry operators Avith whom the union
was having difficidty.
Mr. Newbold did' not do that, and some of Mr, James' and Mr. Con-
nelly's colleagues took Mr. Newbold out and put iive bullets in him
and tried to run over him in a car and then threw him in a ditch. Mr.
Newbold lived through all this and came back and testified.
Then 'Mr. James came north and became a higher official in the
laundry workers miion and Mr. Comielly, his colleague, came north
with him and he became a teamster official in ^Minneapolis. Then Mr,
Newbold took a part in the pension and welfare funds of the laundry
workers union and appeared before the Douglas committee in 1953 or
1954.
After all the evidence was placed in the record by the Douglas com-
mittee and Mr. Less, who was the chief counsel, they found that Mr.
James and his colleagues misappropriated more than $900,000 of pen-
sion and welfare funds.
I believe that part of this is the reason that Mr. James is now imder
investigation for the payment of taxes on perhaps some of that money.
But our interest dates back to the time that you first took over the
local union and first were put in charge of that local union by Mr.
James Holla,
What conversations did yoti have with Mr. James Hoffa that he
was able to recognize 3'our ability and your integrity in order to take
over this local, Mr. James ?
JMr. James. Before I answer that qtiestion, I wotild like to make a
statement.
Honorable Senators, by reason of the pending inqtiiry before the
Federal grand jury at Chicago, HI., pertaining to my activities, as
well as preceding inquiries before the L^nited States Treasury Depart-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE L.\BOR FIELD 5569
ment on my income tax matters for the calendar years of 1951 through
1955, inclusive, threatened criminal action therein, I am impelled to
assert the privilege granted me under the fourth and fifth amend-
ments to the Constitution of the United States whenever I refuse to
answer an inquiry to me by the committee.
I desire it to be miderstood in my refusal to answer such inquiry
I am invoking the privilege granted to me under the fourth and fifth
amendments of the Constitution of the United States.
The Chairman. The statement has been heard. Let me ask you a
question.
Do you know Jim A. Hoff a ?
Mr. James. I didn't understand the question, please.
The Chairman. Do you know Jim A. Hoffa ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Some folks are tending to agree with you.
How long have you known him ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate.
The Chairman. Are you a gangster ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer
The Chairman. Have you ever hired anyone to kill anyone in
connection with the labor movement or your labor operations?
Mr. James. Is that in the form of a question ?
The Chahiman. It is.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. What has been your relation with labor organi-
zations ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Is there something about your connection with
them that you can't tell ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Would any question pertaining to your labor-union
operations likely tend to incriminate you if you answered it truth-
fully?
Mr. Jaivies. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, proceed and ask this witness all the
questions pertinent to this inquiry.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, the statute of limitations has cer-
tainly run for the period of time prior to 1950 and certainly it has
run for the period of time back to 1944, 1945, 1946, and 1947.
The Chairman. Ask him the questions.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. James, will you tell us what conversations you
had with Mr. James Hoffa that led him to set up local 985 in Detroit,
Mich., and place you in as head of it ?
The Chairman. At what time?
Mr. Kennedy. During 1945.
The Chairman. 1945 ? The statute of limitations has run against
you on any conversations you may have had at that time. Proceed.
89330 — 57— pt. 14 19
5570 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES ESP THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. What conversations did you have with Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. James. May I speak with counsel ?
The Chairman. You may.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer that question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair will admonish you, and counsel can
advise you differently, if he chooses to do so, that to refuse to answer
that question may bring you within contempt of the United States
Congress. Therefore, I order you again to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed to ask him a question pertaining to his
conduct back there at that time in which the committee might be
interested relative to its duty to inquire into proper practices in the
labor-management field.
Mr. Kennedy. The charter was issued to you, and I believe we
have a copy of it here, for local 985, the 3d day of June 1947, and
you were placed as the head of it. Within a short time, you put Mr.
Hoffa's wife and Mr. Brennan's wife on the payroll. Can you tell us
why you did that?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it true that the local union you had dealing
with jukeboxes, prior to 1947, also had Mr. Hoffa's wife and Mr.
Brennan's wife on the payroll ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, you are
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. James. I didn't understand you, Senator.
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I hope you keep using the word "refuse," instead
of "decline."
Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it true that, during this period of time, from
1947 on, Mr. William Buffalino was a major distributor of jukeboxes
in the Detroit area, and that you were forced to bring him in and
take him on as a business manager of your local union ? "
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE' LABOR FIELD 5571
The Chairman. The Chair, notwithstanding the refusal of the wit-
ness, orders and directs him to answer the question.
Mr, James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently, Mr. Buffalino took over the local, and
you left the city of Detroit but remained on the payroll. Isn't that
correct ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Wasn't Mr. Buffalino made president of the local
by Mr. James Hoffa?
Mr. James, I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it true that, at the same time you were operat-
ing this union, you also had some distributorships of your own, Mr.
James ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair, notwithstanding your respectful
refusal, or disrespectful refusal, whichever it is, orders and directs you
to answer the question.
Mr. James. Is that in the line of a question?
The Chairman. It is an order.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. We have a letter here dated December 2, 1946, to Mr.
J, James, Music Maintenance Workers Union, 1114 Francis Palmes
Building, Detroit :
The following members listed on enclosure have donated approximately $1,400
as a Christmas gift for you. We hope that you buy a new car with this, and
wish that you use it well. Wishing you a very merry Christmas and a happy
New Year, we remain, very truly yours, Michigan Automatic Phonographic Own-
ers Association, Inc.
Joseph Brillian, President.
Did you receive $1,400 at that Christmas?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. On August 26, 1946, you received another $2,000
from Mr. Brillian. Is that correct?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
5572 IMPROPER ACnVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You are ordered and directed to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Was Mr. Joseph Brillian an employer at that
time?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, you are
ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Were you taking payoffs in that form from em-
ployers at that time while you were representing labor organizations?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Senator Mundt. Do you know Mr. Joseph Brillian ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Mundt. You really wouldn't want to blacken the character
of a man who gives you a $1,400 Christmas gift by denying any
acquaintanceship with him on the basis that to do so would be in-
criminating to you, would you ?
Mr, James. Is that in the form of a question ?
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. Jajees. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Mundt. I heard that gratitude is a rapidly vanishing
American virtue, but I didn't think that it had vanished to that
extent.
A man gave you $1,400 as a Christmas present, and you say you
can't admit knowing him because if you do, by implication, his repu-
tation is so bad, his performance is so vile, that you might incriminate
yourself to admit that you know him.
Mr. James. Is that in the form of a question ?
Senator Mundt. That is a commentary, and you don't have to an-
swer it.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee what the relationship
was between Mr. Buffalino and Mr. Hoffa, when Mr. Hoffa placed
Mr. Buffalino in your local ?
IMPROPER ACrrVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD 5573
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground that the ans^Yer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Just a moment. With the permission of the com-
mittee, the Chair orders and directs you to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you leave this local, Mr. James, and turn
it over to Mr. Buff alino ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Ja]vies. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee how you met Mr.
Gerald Connelly ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Jainies. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Could you tell the committee whether you were in-
troduced to Mr. Gerald Connelly by Mr. Bert Brennan ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. For what purpose did you and Mr. Connelly go
down to Miami, Fla., in approximately 1950 ? For what purpose did
you and Mr. Gerald Connelly go down to Florida, down to Miami, Fla.,
in 1950?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Nubold, the gentleman about whom I was talk-
ing earlier, testified that he knew and talked to you and that he received
money from Mr. Gerald Connelly, and that you were associated in
these projects down in Miami. Do you know Mr. Nubold ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you and Mr. Connelly involved in the plan to
have this operator of a laundry down in Miami, Fla., shot at?
5574 IIMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. James. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds the
answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you and Mr. Connelly involved in the plan,
when Mr. Neubold refused to shoot at this laundry operator, to have
Mr. Nubold shoot himself ?
Mr. Jaimes. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Jaimes. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that i\Ir. Nubold was to be taken
out and shot ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. These questions are directed at racketeering and
gangsterism in labor organizations, so that the committee might get
information upon which to make recommendations to the Congress
with respect to legislation to prevent such criminal practices. Pro-
ceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee how Mr. Connelly was
able to leave Florida and go up and receive the teamster charter up
in Minneapolis ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The Chair with the X)ermission of the committee
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, the Douglas committee charged that you and
your colleagues misappropriated more than $900,000 of pension and
welfare fmids. Was that charge or that finding regarding your
activities correct or not ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds that the answer may*^tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Now I will ask him some questions. Did you ever handle union
welfare f mids ?
Mr. Jaivies. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
groimds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5575
Tlie Chairman. Have you ever held an official position in a union,
in which you had the responsibility for the trusteeship for the handling
of union welfare funds ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairmakt. With the permission of the committee, you are
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
The Chairman. Did you prior to 1950 at any time have an official
position or any other position with a labor union or organization in
which you were trustee or had the responsibility for the handling and
administration of union welfare f mids ?
Mr. James. I didn't miderstand all of your question. You got in
on me before I finished my statement.
The Chairman. Did you at any time prior to 1950 have a relation-
ship, an official relationship or an employment relationship with any
labor union or organization in which it was part of your duties to
handle and administer union welfare funds ?
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
gromid the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you feel that you have no obligation or responsi-
bility or duty to people who pay funds into the union welfare funds,
and pension funds ? Do you feel that you have no obligation what-
soever to make an accounting for those funds when you are a trustee
of them or in position to administer them ?
Mr. James. Is that a question, sir ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Jajmes. I respectfully refuse to answer on the ground the
answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs you to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Senator Mundt. Mr. James, do you consider a dues-paying work-
ing man or woman who is a member of the union of which you are an
official — do you consider such an individual a sucker to be fleeced or a
human being to be served ?
Mr. James. Is that a question ?
Senator Mundt. Yes, sir.
Mr. James. Or a comment ?
Senator Mundt. It is a question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Mundt. How could that incriminate you ?
5576 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. James. Sir?
Senator Mundt. How could that incriminate you ?
Mr. James. Is that a question, sir ?
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the chair-
man orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
ground the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Senator Mundt. That is very pertinent to this inquiry, Mr. James.
We are trying to find out whether certain union officials consider the
people who pay the dues from the sweat of their toil as suckers to be
fleeced and flimflammed and robbed, or whether these officials con-
sider them as human beings whose interest should be served, and
whose working conditions should be improved. That is directly perti-
nent to every phase and facet of our inquiry.
As a labor official, past or ])resent, it is a pertinent question, and I
want to ask you again : What was your concept of the status of the
working men and women of America? Are they just to be considered
suckers that j^ou are going to pick on and fleece? Is that your idea,
or do you consider them as human beings who have every right to ex-
pect honorable service from the officials that they elect or who are
appointed from above to run the affairs of their union ?
Mr. jA]NrES. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. With the permission of the committee, the Chair
orders and directs the witness to answer the question.
Mr. James. I respectfully refuse to answer the question on the
grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Tlie Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Mr. Ejennedy. I have none.
The Chairman. INIr. Eugene C. James, you are placed under recog-
nizance to reappear before this committee at such time as the commit-
tee may desire further testimany from you.
Do you acknowledge that recognizance ?
Mr. JajMes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. With that understanding, the committee will have
no further questions for you at this time. But for your information
the Chair is now ordering and directing the staff to prepare the proper
documents, official documents for this committee to recommend that
the Senate of the United States cite you for contempt of the United
States Senate.
You may stand aside.
Senator Mundt. If you are about to recess, Mr. Chairman, I would
like to put in the record a statement I prepared for a couple of news-
men who asked me to set out in greater detail what I said this after-
noon rather casually about a suggestion that the teamsters convention
in Miami might consider the election or selection of a housekeeping
committee or a caretaking committee in lieu of trying to elect their
national officials. I suggested that candidates for president down
there and the secretary-treasurer might comprise such a committee to
serve for several months while some of these problems and questions
UNIPROPER ACTrVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5577
which are unresolved are being clarified, so that the teamsters gener-
ally would know the type of people for whom they are asked to vote.
I ask that this statement may be placed in the record at this point.
The Chairman. The statement will be placed in the record at this
point.
(The statement referred to follows:)
Senator MuNDT (reading).
Since making the suggestion somewhat casually this afternoon during our
committee hearings that the teamsters convention in Miami might well consider
deferring elections of a new national president and the establishment of a
caretaking committee to operate the union for the next 3 to 6 months, I have
been surprised by the large number of calls and communications which have
come in supporting this proposal.
As a consequence, I want to call attention to its constructive possibilities in
greater detail. Among other things, the delegates to the convention and the
convention now confront these imponderables :
(1) Disclosures and rejoinders involving evidence of wrongdoing by James
R. Holfa and others are far from complete insofar as the testimony before our
committee is concerned. It is impossible to present all the evidence and many
of the most important witnesses for one reason or another are unable or un-
willing to testify at this time.
(2) Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan — as well as other high officials in the team-
sters union — are presently under grand jury indictment. Action by the Federal
courts is still required to determine the disposition which will be made of these
indictments which, on the face of them, indicate serious irregularities and
illegal acts.
(3) The question has been raised before our committee as to the ineligibility
of certain delegates who expect to be seated at the Miami convention of the
teamsters but who appear to have been chosen in violation of the constitution
governing the International Union of Teamsters.
(4) Court action is being sought by some union officials who desire to take
that means of preventing the teamsters convention in Miami from naming a
new slate of elected officers at this time.
(5) Because of illness and for other reasons, some of the witnesses whose
testimony should have a direct bearing on the wrongdoing or correct behavior
of Mr. Hoffa and his associates are unable to testify at the current sessions
of our committee.
(G) The CIO-AFL ethical practices committee has set an early deadline by
which time it insists that the teamsters union either clean house or present
evidence that the charge involving its top officials are groundless.
A "caretakers committee" such as I have recommended, could continue to
operate the affairs of the teamsters union for 3 to 6 months while all of the
foregoing questions and problems were being resolved. This committee could
take such action as is needed to remove the causes of criticism which have
attached to the union and certain of its officials ; the AFL-CIO ethical practices
committee would have an opportunity to complete its findings ; our courts could
make proper disposition of the indictments which are outstanding ; our commit-
tee could complete its investigation and teamsters members everywhere would
have available to them the full set of facts.
I sincerely believe that rather than forcing through an election under the
chaotic conditions confronting the Miami convention, a standby committee to
preside over the affairs of the union would be far preferable to either electing
or rejecting candidates for the presidency of the international union at this
time.
The honest hard-working dues-payiug men and women who belong to the
teamsters union are entitled to able, responsible leadership of the highest
integrity. By providing an opportunity for all of the evidence to be presented
and for all of the accused to make their complete defenses, the membership of
the union and the delegates would not have to buy a pig in a poke but could
then proceed next year to make defensible decisions in the calm atmosphere
which would attend a convention having available to it all of the facts involved.
This might well avoid the development of two teamsters unions in America, and
5578 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
could eliminate the project of jurisdictional strikes. It could provide one
teamsters organization which would be capably and honorably lead by officials
commanding the respect of the entire teamster membership.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 8 : 30 in
the morning.
(Whereupon, at 9 : 35 p. m. the committee was recessed, to reconvene
at 8 : 30 a. m. Friday, September 27, 1957.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
FEIDAY, SEPTEMBER 27, 1957
United States Senate,
Seuect Committee on Improper Activities
IN the Labor or Management Field,
Washington^ D. C.
The select committee met at 8 : 40 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room. Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. INIcClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Sena-
tor Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota.
Also present: Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel; Carmine S. Bel-
lino, accounting consultant; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator; Ruth
Young Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman, The committee will be in order.
(Members of the committee present at the convening of the session :
The chairman and Senator Mundt.)
The Chiarman. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Scott, please.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Scott. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT P. SCOTT
The Chairman. Mr. Scott, please state your name and your place
of residence and your business or occupation.
Mr. Scott. My name is Robert P. Scott. I live at 31 Bloomfield
Terrace, Pontiac, Mich. I am a barber.
The Chairman. Mr. Scott, do 3'^ou have counsel to represent you?
Mr. Scott. I do not.
The Chairman. You waive counsel ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Mr. Scott, what is your position at the present
time ?
Mr. Scott. I am on the board of examiners for the State of
Michigan.
Mr. Kennedy. For barbers ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
5579
5580 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And you have been in the labor-union movement;
liave you ?
Mr. Scott. Since 1926.
Mr. Kennedy. For some 23 years you have been in the labor-union
movement ?
Mr. Scott. Something like that. I don't know the exact years.
Mr. Kennedy. And for a while you were connected with the team-
sters ; were you ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Kennedy. "What period of time were you connected with the
teamsters ?
Mr. Scott. From about 1945 to the middle of 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you with another union prior to that ?
Mr. Scott. I was with the barbers union, and I also had been with
the CIO.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you hold some position in the State with
the labor-union movement in Michigan ?
Mr. Scott. I was secretary-treasurer of the Michigan Federation of
Labor.
Mr. Kennedy. During what period of time ?
Mr. Scott. I think for 6 years prior to 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. From about 1946 to 1952 you were secretary-
treasurer ?
Mr. Scott. I believe I was.
Mr. IvENNEDY. It was that period of time ?
Mr. Scott. Just about.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Now, you knew Mr. James Ho If a ; did you ?
Mr. Scott. I did.
Mr. E[ennedy. Was he responsible for you transferring from the
barbers union into the teamsters ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Kennedy. You became an official of the teamsters union ?
Mr. Scott. I was elected to office in 1948, 1 believe.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to that time did you hold some position in the
teamsters union ?
Mr. Scott. I was a business agent from 1945 to 1952.
Mr. KJENNEDY. In what local ?
Mr. Scott. 614 of Pontiac.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Wlio appointed you as the business agent ?
Mr. Scott. Well, I was called into James Hoffa's office. I don't
know whether he did it or Dan Keating.
Mr. Kennedy. Dan Keating was president of the local at that time ?
Mr. Scott. He was.
Mr. Kennedy. And was there a Mr. Linteau ? Was he an officer ?
Mr. Scott. He wasn't an officer, but he was a business agent. He
later became the officer by appointment to fill a vacancy.
Mr. Kennedy. What position was he appointed to ?
Mr. Scott. Secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Kennedy. And by whom was he appointed ?
Mr. Scott. Dan Keating.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you say that you were ultimately elected an
officer ; were you ?
Mr. Scott. Yes : I was.
IMPKOPER ACnVITIEiS IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5581
Mr. Kennedy. We have had some testimony before this committee
from a rank-and-file member of the Pontiac local, and he described
that election that was held, I believe around 1948, and he said it
was a rigged election for the incumbent officers. Is that true?
Mr. Scott. Well, nobody could become an officer unless he had
paid his dues in advance, and at that time I don't know anyone in
the local who had paid his dues in advance. They declared everybody
ineligible except the ones that were in office and myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you, in fact, paid your dues in advance?
Mr. Scott. No ; I hadn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Had any of the other officers paid their dues in
advance ?
Mr. Scott. No; but the girl in the office so recorded that we had
paid them in advance.
Mr. Kennedy. So, in fact, in was a rigged election ?
Mr. Scott. Well, I would say it was.
Mr. Ivennedy. Now, did you have during that period of time much
contact with Mr. Hoff a ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; I did.
Senator Mundt. Let me interrupt to complete this first part. If
it was a rigged election, it seems that the next logical question is,
Who rigged it ?
Mr. Scott. The people that were in office at that time.
Senator Mundt. That was the people at the central union or the
local union, or at the international level? Which people in which
office rigged it for what purpose ?
Mr. Scott. To keep themselves in office.
Senator Mundt. Now, that is the purpose. Now, which people,
the ones at the local level ?
Mr. Scott. Yes; but they were in by virtue of the imion being
under trusteeship at that time. They had never been elected to office
in the union.
Senator Mundt. So that they being trustees originally, appointed
by Mr. Hoffa and the central office, were rigging the election so that
they could continue to represent him in that local, rather than the
local union members ; is that correct ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did you perform some special services for Mr.
Hoila while you were with the teamsters ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you travel throughout the State for him ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I did. At the time that he put me up as a candi-
date for secretary-treasurer, he had me contact all of the local unions
within the State, and they, in turn, called a meeting of all of the
AFL locals in their towns.
Mr. Kennedy. That was when you were put up to run as secretary-
treasurer of the Michigan Federation of Labor ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have you travel the State in connection with
any other matter ?
Mr. Scott. Well, at one time in a political campaign, I had to con-
tact numerous delegates to elect George Fitzgerald a national com-
mitteeman.
5582 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And you traveled the State for that purpose, also ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. May I inquire, are you talking about a political
campaign in terms of union politics or Michigan politics ?
Mr. Scott. It was Michigan politics.
Senator Mundt. In other words, George Fitzgerald was what ?
Mr. Scott. Michigan national committeeman.
Senator Mundt. This had nothing to do with the union. Of course,
this was done at Mr. Holla's direction ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Senator Mundt. In complete violation, may I say, of Federal law,
because when you elect a national committeeman you are getting into
Federal politics, and that isn't a State election. That is a national
election, and the law specifically precludes union activities in Federal
politics.
I don't know whether this occurred prior to the passage of the law
or subsequent to it, but I simply want to point out, Mr. Chairman, that
this is the first specific and very flagrant illustration we have had
before us of international labor unions involving themselves in Federal
politics, and dramatizes the thing we have been suspecting, that we
need new legislation to stop labor unions from meddling with national
political campaigns.
Mr, Scott. This was an election of a national committeeman and we
didn't take any part in the national campaign at that time.
Senator Mundt. Except, Mr. Scott, that a national committeeman
is a participant in the national determinations of his party, and so,
automatically his election is part of a national campaign. That is his
function, and that is his job.
Mr. Scott. This was all done within the State of Michigan, and
not on a national level at all.
Senator Mundt. I agree with you, except that the man that you
elected becomes a representative of the State of Michigan on the
national level, helping to select delegates, and helping to select conven-
tion sites, and helping to write platforms, and helping if it is desired
by the national committee, as sometimes it is, by both parties, to ma-
nipulate the convention a little bit.
This is a man who triggers off the whole national compaign, and
should be of tremendous concern to every conscientious American
who doesn't want his political candidates nominated for president
and his platforms written by labor unions in violation of the law.
Mr. Scott. I have been a delegate long before I had become an
official of any labor union.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Scott, prior to coming here to testify, did you
receive any threats that you should not testify ?
Mr. Scott. I was called on the telephone and told not to appear
here to testify.
Mr. Kennedy. What was said to you in those telephone conversa-
tions ?
Mr. Scott. I received 2 calls, 1 at 7 o'clock at night and 1 at 10
o'clock, and I was told not to appear here and testify in front of the
Labor Committee.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you receive those calls ?
Mr. Scott. I received them last week. It was either Monday night
or Tuesday night.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD 5583
jSir. KJENNEDT. Now, you are here by order of a subpena ; isn't that
correct ?
Mr, Scott. That is the way I came here.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, prior to coming in did you learn who those
telephone calls came from?
Mr. Scott. No, I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. When you were in the teamsters union, did you learn
some information or pick up some information that leads you to
believe that your wife had been threatened by teamster union officials ?
Mr. Scott. My first wife has since passed away, and she constantly
received telephone calls stating that I was either bumped off or laying
in the gutter some place.
Mr. Kennedy. Did this affect her health ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, it did.
Mr. Kennedy. Was she sick at the time ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, she was. She had arthritis very bad, and at the
time of these telephone calls I would be out, and I was working for the
State at the time, and I would be out at night on my way home and
she would receive these calls and try to get to the telephone and many
times she fell down and hurt herself.
Senator Mundt. What was the purpose of the attempts to intimi-
date you through your wife? The labor union must have had some
reason.
Mr. Scott. Because at the time the teamsters imion was trying to
organize the grocery-store dealers in Pontiac.
Senator Mundt. Were you trying to stop them ?
Mr. Scott. I was with the CIO and I was trying to stop the team-
sters from organizing them, and so did.
Senator Mundt. So they called up your wife to try to threaten her
so as to have some influence with you to call off your efforts to stop
the teamsters ; is that right ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And the teamsters were stopped and the CIO,
with which you were connected, organized the grocery-store workers ?
Mr. Scott. I could not say. We did not organize them at that time
because most of the grocery stores in Pontiac did not have hired help.
It was only men and their wives.
Senator Mundt. In any event you did stop the teamsters from
organizing them ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And subsequently if they join either the teamsters
or the CIO, or are they still unorganized?
Mr. ScoTT. To my knowledge they are still unorganized.
Mr. Kennedy. These threats to your wife, these telephone calls to
your wife, did they hasten her death, Mr. Scott ?
Mr. ScoTT. I would say they did, and so did the doctor.
Mr. Kennedy. That was how many years ago ?
Mr. ScoTT. She died in 1946.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Scott, one other question. You were with the
CIO at that time?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. If you were not interested in organizing the gro-
cery-store workers, why were you interested in keeping the teamsters
from organizing the grocery-store workers ?
5584 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Scott. Because of my acquaintance with the grocery-store men
and the only one that was in it was the man and his wife.
Senator Mundt. So you were really acting to stop the teamsters not
as a CIO official, but as a friend of the people in the grocery stores
who felt that this was not a proper economic activity to organize;
is that correct ?
Mr. Scott. It was because I didn't think so and the CIO supported
my thoughts because it was CIO men that assisted me in stopping the
teamsters.
Senator Mundt. I was just trying to establish your reasons for
opposing the teamsters if you yourself were not trying to organize
them. 1 ou were doing it on the basis that this was too small a shop
to be brought into a labor union.
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Scott, you had this problem, as far as your wife
was concerned, in 1945 and 1946 when these telephone calls were
made to her. At that time, as I understand it, you did not realize that
it was telephone calls from teamsters ?
Mr. Scott. No, I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. You ultimately joined the teamsters yourself and
then from conversations and from what people said and wha.t in-
formation you picked up subsequently, you learned that these tele-
phone calls had been from teamster officials; is that right?
Mr. Scott. I believe they were from the teamster local officials.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Let me ask you this. In view of the fact that you
have received these telephone calls within the last week yourself,
why is it that you have come here to testify ? Do you consider that
Mr. Hoff a is a threat throughout the country to organized labor ?
Mr. Scott. First, I was subpenaed here and secondly, I do not think
he is a good influence for the labor movement.
Mr, Kennedy. That is why you have been willing to testify and
assist the committee ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliile you were in this local 614, were the union
members kept informed as to the finances of the union?
Mr. Scott. No, they weren't. There was no financial report ever
read to the local membership in any way, shape, or form. But at one
time to my knowledge, the Taft-Hartley law requires you to make a
financial statement once every year and post it in the local union office.
A statement compiling the total revenue and the total expenditures
was posted in the local union, although it was never read at any local
union meetings of the local.
Mr. Kennedy. Were any minutes kept of the meetings of the exec-
utive board ?
Mr. Scott. Prior to my going with local 614 there was never any
minutes kept, but after I went with them, I rexjuested that they keep
minutes of the meetings. They would be drawn a week or 10 days or 2
weeks after the meeting of the recording secretary.
Mr. Kennedy. While you were there as an official of the local, Mr.
Hoff a was having his home remodeled at Lake Orion ; is that right ?
Mr. Scott. He bought a summer home at Square Lake in Lake
Orion, and he had it completely remodeled.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee who handled the re-
modelins: of it ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5585
Mr. Scott. To my knowledge, Keating did. The reason that I
say that he did was because all the bills for the remodeling came to
our office on Lawrence Street, and Keating paid the bills.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Keating have the money himself to pay
the bills?
Mr. Scott. I would say, at that time Mr. Keating did not have that
kind of money.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Keating sav anything to you as to whether
Mr. Hoffa had given him the monejr for those bills ?
Mr. Scott. He said that Hoffa did not give him the money to pay
the bills or make the downpayment on the cottage.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the downpayment that had to be made?
Mr. Scott. $2,000.
Mr. Kennedy. How much, approximately, went into the house after
that for remodeling?
Mr. Scott. For remodeling it was from ten to fourteen thousand
dollars.
Mr. Kennedy. You say that money was paid by Mr. Keating and
Mr. Keating stated that Mr. Hoffa did not give him the money to pay
those bills ; is that right ?
Mr. Scott. On numerous occasions Mr. Keating said he was going
to keep all them bills and someday present them to Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. But in the meantime he paid the bills himself?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not believe that the money came from Mr.
Keating's own pocket ; is that right ?
Mr. Scott. No. I think it came from the teamsters local union
funds.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the union, that you know of, pay any of the
bills of Mr. Hoff a's home ?
Mr. Scott. They paid all the telephone bills at that cottage out of
the local union funds.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you know that ?
Mr. Scott. I seen Dan make out the checks.
Mr. Kennedy. The bills were sent to local 614 and you saw Mr.
Keating make out the checks ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Keating and Mr. Linteau and Mr. Marossa,
Mr. Niccoletti and Mr. Fitzsimmons were indicted for extortion in
one period of time, either 1953 or 1954. Are you familiar with that ?
Mr. Scott. I can truthfully say that Mike Niccoletti, Sam Marossa,
Louis Linteau, and Dan Keating was indicted by the grand jury,
but as far as Frank Fitzsimmons is concerned, I never knew whether
he was indicted or not, although I knew that they all pleaded guilty
with the exception of Mike Nicolletti, so Frank Fitzsimmons would
not be sent to jail.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me understand this. If Mr. Fitzsimmons was
involved with these individuals, but they took a plea of guilty, all
except Niccolletti, so that no action would be taken against Mr.
Fitzsimmons ; is that right ?
Mr. Scott. That is the way I was told.
Mr. Kennedy. Who told you that ?
Mr. Scott. Mr. Keating.
89330— 57— pt. 14 20
r
5586 EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Keating also tell you anything about his
being taken care of for performing this service for Mr. Fitzsinimons
and Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Scott. They were supposed to remain on the payroll. Whether
they did or not, I could not say, because I "was not with the local at
that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Keating tell you that he had remained on
the payroll ?
Mr. Scott. They were supposed to be getting paid while they were
in the Detroit House of Correction.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not have any personal knowledge of that?
Mr. Scott. No, I don't.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Did Mr. Keating tell you that Mr. Linteau and Mr.
Marossa were also being paid while they were in prison ?
Mr. Scoii'. lie told me that Sam INIarossa and Louis Linteau was
getting paid even after he had left the local, or left the prison, rather.
Mr. Kennedy. While Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan purchased a
place up in Iron Kiver, Mich., which is away up in northern Michi-
gan, as I understand, did you hear about that ?
Mr. Scott. I don't know the correct acreage, but I believe it was
140 acres. They purchased this in the Upper Peninsula in about
1950, I believe. They have constantly sent the business agents from
local 614 up there to make repairs on the place and do work on it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear anything about Mrs. Bremian and
Mrs. Hoffa flying up to see this property ?
ISIr. Scott. I was told by Keating and Gordon Rohrich who is now
dead, and he said that Dan Keating hired him to fly Mrs. Hofl'a and
Mrs. Brennan up there to look the property over. Dan told me that
he paid for the trip with union funds.
Mr. IvENNEDY. How mucli was that ?
Mr. Scott. About $1,400.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a grand jury investigation around 1947
and 1948 of the activities of Mr. Hoffa and others ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, there was.
Mr. Kennedy. That was a one man grand jury operated by George
Murphy, a State circuit court judge?
Mr. ScoTT. I believe it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you assigned by Mr. Hoffa to any position in
connection with that grand jury investigation ?
Mr. Scott. I was told to find out what the witnesses was testifying
to in front of the grand jury.
Mr. Kennedy. To get that information, who would you contact?
jSIr. Scott. There was a fellow working either for the grand jury
or for the newspaper that I had gone to school with. He gave me in-
formation on what people were testifying to in front of the grand
jury.
Mr. Kennedy. What was his name ?
Mr. Scott. Earl Kehoe. He is a lawyer in Florida now.
Senator Mundt. How would he know what they testified to in the
grand jury ?
Mr. Scott. He was either working for the grand jury as an investi-
gator or for the Detroit N'ews. I can't say which. But he knew
what was going on in the grand jury. At one time he was chief in-
vestigator for the prosecutor's office in Oakland County.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5587
Senator Mundt. So he would have contacts at least with the peo-
ple who w^ere operating the grand jury })roi'.eedings.
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. I^NNEDY. lie is the same Earl Kehoe, I believe, who is prac-
ticing law down in Miami ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr, Kennedy. He was up here during the recent trial of Mr, Hoffa.
His hotel bill here was paid for by the teamsters.
Mr. Scott. That I don't know anything about.
Mr. Kennedy. So you would make your contact with Mr. Kehoe,
is that right ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How many times did you see Mr. Kehoe ?
Mr. Scott. I would see him about every night. But on at least
three occasions he gave me information in regards to what was going
on in the grand jury.
Mr. Kennedy, Did he give you any specific information regarding
an individual who testified against Mr. Hoffa receiving money ?
Mr. Scott. He told me at one time that Turk Prujanski
Mr. Kennedy. P-r-u
Mr. Scott. I don't know how it is spelled.
Mr. Kennedy. P-r-u- j-a-n-s-k-i-, Turk, T-u-r-k, Prujanski.
Mr. Scott. That he was in front of the grand jury and testified to
going to give Hoffa five to ten thousand dollars to have it fixed with
the chairman of the liquor control commission who is now deceased
and his name was Orin D. Masser.
Mr. Kennedy. Or DeMass ?
Mr. Scott. Yes. He was chairman of the liquor control commis-
sion at one time.
Mr. Kennedy. It is D-e-M-a-s-s. He was chairman of the liquor
control commission.
Mr. Scott. At one time ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And the five or ten thousand dollars Turk Prujanski
testified before the grand jury was given to Mr. Hoffa to share with
Mr. DeMass ?
Mr. Scott, I don't know what Hoffa was going to do with the five
or ten thousand dollars,
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know at that time that Mr. DeMass and
Mr. Hoffa and Mr. Brennan were in business together?
Mr. Scott. No, I did not. I did hear of Mr. Hoffa giving $25,000
to Mr. DeMass of the Republican Party for a campaign contribution.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you report this testimony to Mr. Hoffa of Turk
Prujanski?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I did,
Mr, Kennedy. Wliat did Mr. Hoffa say ?
Mr. Scott. He said he would have him taken care of. Turk was
out to the racetrack and 2 men of Hoffa's contacted him and told him
to get out of the State and he left and went to California, and he
was brought back on a fugitive warrant and he refused to testify to
what he said in front of the grand jury and he was committed to jail
for 60 days.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa said he would have him taken care of ?
Mr, Scott. That is right.
5588 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did you learn from Mr. Hoffa that he had two men
speak to Mr. Prujanski ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Prujanski left the State and went to California.
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And the State of Michigan arranged to have him
brought back ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And when he was brought back and appeared again
before the grand jury he i-efused to repeat what he said earlier?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was sentenced to 60 days in jail for refusing
to testify ?
Mr. Scott. For contempt.
Mr. Kennedy. At what time during the day or night did you used
to meet with Mr. Kehoe and pick up this information ?
Mr. Scott. He would contact me all hours of the night from a hotel
in Detroit, and I would have to get up out of bed and go down there
and get the information,
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know what Mr. Turk Prujanski's business
was at the time and what he was doing ?
Mr. Scott. He was running a bar. I can't tell you the name of the
street.
Mr. Kennedy. But he was operating a bar ?
Mr. Scott. He was operating it for some other people. He didn't
own it.
Mr. Kennedy. After this grand jury was over, did Mr. Hoffa speak
to you about drawing up a bill to outlaw these kinds of grand juries?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us the conversation you had with
him ?
Mr. Scott. Well, he said we should do away with the one-man grand
jury. I honestly believed that they should be at that because they
are not any good for anyone. I think the Supreme Court has ruled
they are unconstitutional. But at the time I was a lobbyist for the
Michigan Federation of Labor and the bill was drafted. I talked to
George Fitzgerald and Dave Previant about it, and I was able to get
the bill through the legislature, and the one-man grand juries were
outlawed. Then they in turn 2 years after I quit introduced a 1-man
grand jury bill and put it in force again.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Hoffa speak to you at all to intercede with
the governor in connection with certain of his friends who were in
prison ?
Mr. Scott. There was one fellow in jail on a life conviction. He
asked me to intercede with the Governor on a pardon. That I told
him I could not do because I would be no longer any good as a lobbyist.
Then he got some other people to get him paroled.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have conversation with him about a relative
of Pete Licavoli ?
Mr. Scott. He called me and asked me.
Mr. Kennedy. Identify Pete Licavoli, first.
Mr. Scott. He is connected with the rackets in Detroit to the best
of my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Anyway, he has a long police record, has he not ?
EVIPROPER ACTIl'ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5589
Mr. Scott. He has a long police record. Jimmy contacted me about
his father-in-law, one Pete Camponero, and I believe two Republi-
cans introduced the bill here in Congress to keep him in this country,
but he was sent out of the country by the State of Michigan, and part
of his parole was that he would stay out of the country. He came back
into the country and they picked him up for violation of parole.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat diet Mr. Hoffa want you to do ? Did he want
you to approach the Governor for a pardon for him ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Hoffa a friend of Pete Licavoli ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; he is.
Mr. KJENNEDY. He is at the present time. I have Mr. Nick Lica-
Toli's prison record here. In 1922, the charge was robbery; 1926,
robbery; in 1927 he was arrested again; 1927, violation of Volstead
Act; 1927, kidnaping; 1928, prohibition law; 1928, murder; 1929,
kidnaping; 1929, disorderly person; 1930, disorderly person; 1931,
fugitive; 1931, murder; 1931, conspiracy to violate the prohibition
law ; 1933, murder ; shooting for 1935 ; extortion, 1935 ; 1935, dis-
orderly person ; 1935, assault and battery ; conspiracy in 1941 ; inves-
tigation, 1946; 1950, conspiracy, and a number of others. Did Mr.
Hoffa speak to you about getting promotions for various police
officers ?
Mr. Scott. He did. To my knowledge on 2 occasions, 2 State
policemen he wanted to get promoted.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you find that there was a tieup between Mr.
Hoffa and some of the underworld element in Michigan ?
Mr. Scott. I would say there was.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any explanation as to why that existed ?
Mr. Scott. Well, on one occasion I was called to his office by Bert
Brennan and asked to put the fix in with the Oakland County prose-
cutor so some of the boys could run out there in Oakland County.
Senator Mundt. Run what ?
Mr. Scott. A gambling joint.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa was present at that time?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Kennedy. So he performed services for some of these individ-
uals and some of the underworld element, and they in turn would
perform services for him and favors ?
Mr. Scott. That is my knowledge of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you agree to try to put a fix in for them in
Oakland County ?
Mr. Scott. No ; I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you say ?
Mr. Scott. I told them I couldn't fix it. They said I could.
Mr. Kennedy. Had they requested you to fix it earlier ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; they had.
Mr. Kennedy. And you had refused at that time.
Mr. Scott. Yes ; I had.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that when you were called down to Mr. Hoffa's
office?
Mr. Scott. Yes. Bert Brennan called me asked me if my insur-
ance was paid up. I asked him what that had to do with him. He
said, well, he had a couple of fellows in the office that wanted me to
5590 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN"' THE LABOR FIELD
fix it for them to run out in Oakland County, and they were bad boys,
and I had better have my insurance paid up.
Mr. Kennedy. Was one of them known as Little Sammy ?
Mr. Scott. Sammy Fenness, I guess is his name. He has some
boxers out there.
Mr. Kennedy. Sam Fenness.
Mr. Scott. I think that is his name.
Mr. Kennedy. Sam Fennazo, is that right ?
Mr. Scott. I don't know. I only knew him by Sam Fenness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, in the telephone conversation that
was held involving Tony Ducks Corallo, he mentioned the fact that
this individual was having trouble arranging about a charter with the
teamsters, that Jimmy Hoffa should intercede. The man said he
didn't know Jimmy Hoffa. So Tony Ducks said, "Well, tell him you
are a friend of Little Sammy, because Little Sammy is also a friend of
Jimmy Hoffa."
Was that place ever opened up in Oakland County ?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes, it was. It was opened up and it was supposed to
run for 30 days. It run a little better than that and then it was
closed up.
Mr. Kennedy. Why was it supposed to run for 30 days ?
Mr. ScoTT. So he could get his money back on his investment of
what it cost him to open the place up.
Mr. IvENNEDY. This was Sammy, was it ?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you also know William Hoffa ?
Mr. ScoTT. You mean Jimmy's brother ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he associated with 614 ?
Mr. Scott. He is a business agent for them now.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Were you ever approached by anybody that spoke
to you about William Hoffa getting into the rackets out in Pontiac ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I was. I was told by a Greek fellow that they
called the Chinaman that Billy Hoffa was trying to get in the numerous
rackets. At the time I said, "Whatever you do, don't let him in it." I
said, "He is on parole now, I believe, from Detroit, and he is connected
with local 614, and we don't want him in the racket."
Mr. I{j:nnedy. Did you ever hear anything more about it ?
Mr. Scott. Well, yes. I was in the Fort Wayne Hotel in Detroit,
and Herman Kierdorft told me that Billy Hoffa wanted to hire him
to bump me off.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason ?
Mr. Scott. Because I interfered with him getting in the numbers
rackets.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Had you any experience with William Hoffa prior
to that?
Mr. Scott. The only experience I had with him was when he was
arrested for something in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. That was for armed robbery.
Mr. Scott. Yes, it was. Jimmy told me to take him out in Pontiac
and hide him away from the police.
Mr. Kennedy. The police were looking for him at that time.
IMPROPER ACTlVITIEiS IN THE LABOR FIELD 5591
Mr, Scott. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hide him ?
Mr. Scott. I don't know how well I hid him, but he was never
picked up.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you hide him ?
Mr. Scott. In a hotel.
Mr. Kennedy. Who paid the hotel bill ?
Mr. Scott. Local 614.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make the arrangements for the hotel bills
to be paid by 614?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you personally handle that ?
Mr. Scott. In addition to paying the hotel bills, we paid Billy
Hoffa $75 a week.
Mr. Kennedy. All Billy Hoffa did was to stay in the hotel room?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Was his wife there with him ?
Mr. Scott. She was for a while.
Mr. Kennedy. How long a period of time was that ?
Mr. Scott. I would say 3 or 4 months.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you say she was there with him for a while.
Did she leave him ?
Mr. Scott. She ran away from him. I don't believe they were
married.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Hoffa interested in the fact that Billy
Hoffa's wife had run away from him ?
j\Ir. Scott. He called me up and he told me that Billy's wife had
left him and that he was going to send Tom Burke some place out in
Arizona to bring her back.
Mr. Kennedy. Wlio is Tom Burke ?
Mr. Scott. He was at that time a business agent for Jimmy Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Tom Burke go out west and pick her up and
bring her back ?
Mr. Scott. He went out and I believe he did bring her back. I am
not sure.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you told by Tom Burke as to who paid the
transportation ?
Mr. Scott. He said it cost around $7,000 for the time he was gone,
and the union paid for it.
Mr. Kennedy. The search for Mrs. William Hoffa ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. The whole search cost approximately $7,000?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And that was all paid for by the union ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Let me see if we understand the story. What was
Billy Hoffa charged with at the time ?
Mr. Scott. That I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. Armed robbery, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Do you recall he was charged with armed rob-
bery ?
Mr, Scott. I believe he was. I think it was for breaking into a
jewelry store.
5592 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES DsT THE LABOR FIELD
The CHAiRiMAisr. At any rate, the law enforcement officers were
looking for him to arrest him ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And his brother, Jimmy Hoffa, arranged with you
to hide him out ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As a fugitive from justice ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. And you did it ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You put him in a hotel ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He and his wife.
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. They had 1 or 2 children with them there.
The Chairman. But you managed to keep him in that hotel for how
many months?
Mr. Scott. Two or three months.
The Chairman. During that time, the hotel bill, I assume for the
room and food any everything else, was sent to local 614 for payment.
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. And the bills were paid out of union funds.
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is money that was paid in as dues by the mem-
bers of the union.
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. Also, during that time he received a check or pay-
ment of $75 per week out of union funds as salary ?
Mr. Scott. Well, I don't know what the salary was for, because he
wasn't doing nothing for it, but that is what he got, $75 a week.
The Chairman. Granted that is true, if he is a fugitive from jus-
tice and staying in a hotel room, I assume there is very little he could
do except keep hiding. But he was kept on a salary for hiding out
from the law because he was performing no other services.
Mr. Scott. He was given $75 a week for spending money by the
local union.
The Chairman. Besides the union paying the hotel bill ?
IVIr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. Did they charge their meals on the hotel bill ?
Mr. Scott. That I don't know.
The Chairman. You don't recall about that ?
Mr. Scott. No ; I don't.
The Chairman. That was all done at tlie instructions of Jimmy
Hoffa?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. What was Jimmy Hoffa's position in the union at
that time ?
Mr. Scott. Well, he was president of the local union and president
of the joint council and president of the State conference of locals.
The Chairman. Was this matter ever taken up with the union mem-
bers and did they authorize such payments ?
Mr. Scott. They didn't know anything about it.
The Chairman. Do you suppose this is the first time they ever
heard of it ?
Mr. Scott. I imagine it is.
IMPROPER ACnVITIEiS m THE' LABOR FIELD 5593
The Chairman. Now, just a moment, and I am going to let you go
ahead, Mr. Comisel, but before I forget to do it I want to go back to
this house that was bought and the $2,000 downpayment made. I be-
lieve you said thereafter there was from $10,000 to $14,000 spent
remodeling it.
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Where is that located ?_
Mr. Scott. At Square Lake, at Lake Orient.
The Chairman. When was it purchased? Do you remember the
time?
Mr. Scott. I believe it was 1948.
The Chairman. In 1948 ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That would be less than 10 years ago.
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was all of the money handled in cash or were
checks given ?
Mr. Scott. Checks for what, sir ?
The Chairman. Well, you said Mr, Keating, I believe, paid for all
of this, the $2,000 downpayment and also the other money.
Mr. Scott. The $2,000 downpayment, I believe, was made in cash
to Lester Tripp, or Leslie Tripp, the real estate man. He was in the
same building that the teamsters local union was in.
$4,500 Jimmy brought out and gave to me, and asked me to have
Leslie Tripp put in his wife's name the house, and I took the money
in to Leslie Tripp and he put the house in Jimmy Ploffa's name and
his wife's name.
The Chairman, How much did you say you gave him at that time ?
Mr. Scott. $4,500 in cash.
The Chairman. Wliere did you get the cash ?
Mr, Scott. From James Hoffa.
The Chairman. Was there any record made of that expenditure
on the union books ?
Mr. Scott. Jimmy gave me the cash money, and I don't know
whether he got it from his local union or where he got it.
The Chairman, Well, I thought you said the $10,000 to $14,000
paid out for remodeling the house, I thought you said that was handled
by Mr. Keating?
Mr. Scott. It was.
The Chairman. And you had personal knowledge of that ?
Mr. Scott. I had knowledge of all of the bills on it because they
came into the office for lumber, and knotty pine, and stuff of that
sort.
The Chairman. Were any of those bills paid by check on the union ?
Mr. Scott. That I couldn't say.
The Chairman. You do not recall about that ?
Mr. Scott. I don't know of any checks, or how he paid for any of
that stuff.
The Chairman. Do you know where the cash came from to pay it ?
Mr. Scott. No, I don't, and I don't believe Mr. Keating had any
$10,000 or $14,000 at that time.
The Chairman. At least Mr. Keating told you that Mr. Hoffa did
not give him the money ?
5594 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Scott. He told me that as late as 3 weeks ago, that Jimmy has
never paid him back for the money that he had spent on remodeling
that lake cottage.
Senator Mundt. While we are going back and reviewing some of
your testimony over again, you said that Billy Hoffa wanted to get
in the rackets or some friend of his had tried to get you to make a fix
so he could get in the rackets.
You said you didn't want to do that because he was a member of
your union, and furthermore, you said he was on parole now from
Detroit. I was wondering whether that parole was on this same
armed-robbery charge, or did it involve some other arrests ?
Mr. Scott. I believe it w^as another arrest. I don't think it was
the one case that I knew about. I don't know what the case was, but
he was in court in Detroit, and he beat the one case, but I was given
to understand that he was still on parole for another case.
Senator Mundt. The second case was not the one in which you were
involved in the hideout, but it was something else ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. William Hoffa has a record : 1938, investigated
for assault and battery; 1938, malicious destruction of property;
1938, subsequently felonious assault; 1940, violation of probation;
1942 investigation, and 1942, carrying concealed weapons, sentenced
to Jackson State Prison for 1 to 5 years.
He was paroled, and 1944, violation of parole. 1948, he was ar-
rested for armed robbery. Later in 1948, he was tried for armed
robbery and found not guilty.
Do you think it might be that one ?
Mr. Scott. That is the case. When I was hiding him out, that is
the case that he was hiding out for because Jimmy told me the police
wanted him for something else, and they were going to pick him up.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Chairman, we interviewed Mr. William
Hoffa, and he stated. No. 1, that his wife had run away, and that Mr.
Tom Burk went out and picked her up, I believe in Reno, Nev., and
brought her back, and she stayed only a few days and then left again.
He said that he didn't pay for ]\Ir. Tom Burk's trip, and he thought
that Mr. Tom Burk had done it just as a favor, and he thought that
probably his brother Jimmy Hoffa knew about it. He said that he
had hidden out from the police for a period of time, but that he had
hidden out with a relative who is now dead.
Now, the wife incident took place approximately in what year ?
Mr. Scott. I would say that was some time between 1946 and 1948.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know how much, approximately, was paid
for the hotel room in which you were hiding Mr. Hoffa out with his
wife and 2 children ?
Mr. Scott. No; I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mr. Kennedy. But you paid that bill yourself ?
Mr. Scott. I carried the check over and gave it to the hotel.
Mr. Kennedy. And also you paid them the $75 a week for expenses.
Mr. Scott. I took the check over to Billy and gave it to him.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN TELE' LABOR FIELD 5595
Mr. Kennedt. I just want to ask you a few questions about Mr.
Keating, and Mr. Linteau.
Were they receiving some gifts and presents from certain of the
truckers in and around Pontiac ?
Mr. Scott. Well, one trucker in particular.
Mr. Kennedy. What is his name ?
Mr. Scott. Mike Kancenell. I don't know how to spell it.
Mr. Kennedy. He is from the Fleet Carrier Corp. ?
Mr. Scott. That is right. He always was trying to make some gift.
He owned a clothing store in Detroit, and he always wanted me to go
down there and get shirts and hats and all of the other haberdashery
that a man wears, so I wouldn't even force the contract with him.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if Mr. Keating or Mr. Linteau received
some of those gifts ?
Mr. Scott. I understand that Mr. Linteau did, and I don't know
Avhether Keating did or not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he also offer to take you on a trip to Florida ?
Mr. Scott. Yes. He offered to pay all of my expenses on a trip to
Florida, and Louis Linteau told me that he had paid for two trips
down to Florida for him.
Mr. Kennedy. I might say in that connection that Mr. Linteau has
admitted to the investigators, although he was not asked before the
committee, he did admit in the first interview that he had had one
trip paid for by Mr. Kancenell.
Mr. Scott. He went down there twice, and he told me, and I am
just telling you what he told me, that both trips were paid by
Kancenell.
I would like to say at this time that Leon Hereldson had one trip
down there, and that was supposed to be paid by Kancenell.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Leon Hereldson ?
Mr. Scott. He is president of the local 614.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, they also had automobiles supplied to them,
Mr. Keating did ?
Mr. Scott. Mr. Keating and Mr. Linteau and Mr. Hereldson had
their cars bought by the local union. I never had the local union
at any time buy a car for me.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a car also for Mr. Keating's wife pur-
chased out of local union funds ?
Mr. Scott. He had an Oldsmobile, and he gave that to his wife,
and then he had a Cadillac.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Linteau charge the gasoline used by his
family and his brother and his mother to the local ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Kennedy. And you saw the bills on that ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; he did, and I was an officer at the time and I raised
the dickens about him charging his brother's and his wife's gasoline
to the local union, and he denied that they were charging it. So I
had the gas man put down the numbers of the car on the gas slips and
the cars belonged to his mother and to his brother.
Senator Mtjndt. Did the union membership authorize the pur-
chase of these cars in some kind of a resolution ?
Mr. Scott. At no time. When I first went to work for the local,
it was paying $75 a week, and that is all they paid for. They didn't
pay for any cars or never authorized the business agents to buy cars.
5596 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. We had a fellow in here the other day, Mr. Scott,
and I am not sure whethere this was in your local or not, but he had a
whole series of bills showing charges of over $700 for dinners for
himself and his secretary.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Minneapolis.
Senator Mundt. Now, I ask you, in your experience as a local offi-
cer, is it customary for the local union to provide in the town where
the official works, for his board and room in addition to his salary?
Is that something usual ?
Mr. Scott. I would say, while I was working as a business agent
out in Pontiac, that we were supposed to pay for our own meals.
Senator Mundt. In other words, if you were sent to some other
town, normally I presume the union would pay for your food, but
when you are at home you pay for your own ?
Mr. Scott. Out of town they pay not only the food bills, but all
other expenses.
Senator Mundt. Surely. I think you testified that the member-
ship itself had never authorized the purchase of these automobiles.
How about the executive committee or the officers? Was there any-
thing in the minutes to indicate that they took some official action or
how this thing was handled ?
Mr. Scott. As I testified, there were never any minutes kept of an
executive board meeting until I went with the local. Then a week or
2 weeks or 3 weeks after the meeting, a recording secretary would
put down what he wanted to put in the minutes.
Senator Mundt. Under those arrangements, I suppose if you had
said to your other officials, "I want a Cadillac, too," probably they
would have bought you one ; is that right ?
Mr. Scott. I will testify that I had a Cadillac, but I paid for it
myself. I had two vices ; one was clothes and the other was a car.
Senator Mundt. A Cadillac vice is not a bad vice, if you can af-
ford it.
Mr. Scott. I was not married at that time.
Senator Mundt. That means that you could ajfford it better than
you can now ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
The Chairman. I would like to inquire about the financial records
kept at that time by local 614.
Mr. Scott. The only records that were kept were what was paid
for by check, and that was kept in the checkbook, and that is the only
record that was kept.
The Chairman. Was any record kept of the amount of dues re-
ceived ?
Mr. Scott. They had a daily cash receipts book, and they kept in
that what they received every day, and then they made a monthly
statement to the international. Well, the international sent an audi-
tor out there one time and I couldn't tell you how much back per
capita tax they had to pay.
The Chairman. In other words, the international was interested
in seeing that it got its share of the dues paid in ?
Mr. Scott. They were interested in their per capita tax of every
member that belonged. Per capita tax must be paid on that member.
The Chairman. And this local got far behind in paying the per
capita tax to the international ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE' LABOR FIELD 5597
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. Now, with respect to expenditures, you said they
did keep for such checks as they issued, of course, they kept a record
of that, the check stubs, I assume.
Mr. Scott. After the checks came back from the bank they again
pasted them back in the check book on the stub of which they were
drawn.
The Chairman. For cash expenditures, did they keep any vouch-
ers or anything to indicate what those expenditures were for ?
Mr. Scott. That was kept on a daily cash sheet, too.
The Chairman. I said did they have any vouchers showing what
they paid the money out for, any receipts or vouchers ?
Mr. Scott. Sometimes they did and other times they didn't.
The Chairman. In other words, Mr. Scott, what I am trying to
find out is this: Did they keep financial records that reflected how
they spent and used all of the union funds ?
Mr. Scott. No, they didn't.
The Chairman. In other words, an auditor going in there couldn't
tell from the records kept, or he couldn't get an accurate picture of
the expenditures to know whether those expenditures were paid for
legitimate union purposes?
Mr. Scott. Not at that time, he couldn't.
The Chairman. You, of course, don't know about it since you have
been away ?
Mr. Scott. No, I don't.
The Chairman. Would you say that most of the money that was
received, or rather, most of the money expended was expended by
checks or expended in cash ?
Mr. Scott. Well, they had a way of spending it in cash. In other
words, they would make a check out to someone, and then that some-
one would cash the check and give the money back to the officer, and
he could spend it then as he saw fit.
The Chairman. Either on himself personally for his own pleasure,
or for union purposes ?
Mr. Scott. Well, that would come under the heading, "as he saw
fit." I would say.
The Chairman. I was trying to place a little emphasis on what he
mi^ht see fit to do. The check, then, showing a payment to the in-
dividual to whom the check was drawn would show that it was paid for
a certain purpose on the checkbook ; is that correct ?
Mr. Scott. Sometimes it would and other times it wouldn't. I
would say that it wasn't always correct, the notation they put on the
checkbook.
The Chairman. When they make a check to somebody for $500, and
that person would cash the check and give the money back to an officer,
the checkbook would reflect the expenditures of $500 out of the funds.
Now, in entering that check or making a record of the purpose for
which it was given, you say sometimes they would make false entries.
In other words, they wouldn't say "This check was given so we could
get cash" ?
Mr. Scott. Would you repeat that, please, Senator?
The Chairman. I am just using this as an illustration. Suppose
they wanted, or the officer wanted to get $500 in cash. He would
write a check out to someone and make it payable to some other
5598 IMPROPER ACnVITIES ENP THE LABOR FIELD
person. The other person would endorse or cash the check and give
that money back to the official, as I understand it.
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. In other words, that was the device used to get the
money out of the union treasury.
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. And in doing that often they would make false
entries as to the purpose of issuing the check in the first place ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. In other words, they would not enter on the book
or make any record that would give that information to others that
this check was written solely to get cash to put in the pockets or in
the hands of a union official so that he could spend the money as he
saw fit ?
Mr. Scott. I will say that the entry on the book does not always
register what the money is used for or who it went to. In other
words, they can put anything on the checkbook that they want to put
there and that is the way they do it.
The Chairman. In other words, the records they keep are falsified.
They are not accurate and not proven.
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Tlie Chairman. You spoke of threats that you say some years ago
sliortened the life of your wife and you spoke of two threats just re-
cently, last week, I believe. Is that correct ?
Mr. Scott. That is correct.
The Chairman. Have they ever actually undertaken so far as you
know to commit any violence upon you ?
Mr. Scott. Not yet they haven't.
The Chairman. Did you regard these telephone calls last week as
threats against you if you came here and testified?
Mr. Scott. I did.
The Chairman. Are you apprehensive now that they may commit
violence or undertake to do you some harm ?
Mr. Scott. They might try it.
The Chairman. I assume then you are not very much afraid.
Mr. Scott. Well, I am, myself, not afraid of them. I have a little
daughter that I am worried about.
The Chairman. You think they are capable of doing you physical
harm and committing violence upon you or doing harm to your family ?
Mr. Scott. Have you ever seen many of the business agents from
the teamsters union? If you have, you know how big they are and
how strong they are.
The Chairman. Yes, sir; we have been seeing a few of them here.
I was just trying to get the true picture in your situation because I
wish to announce at this time, sir, that this committee will do every-
thing in its power and bring to bear every influence and force of law
and law officials that it can command to give you and your family
protection.
If you receive any other threats or any other call or anything to
intimate that you are being threatened or that you may be in danger,
I ask you to report it to this committee at once and we will do every-
thing in our power.
Mr. Scott. I can truthfully say tliat I already have been given some
protection by this committee.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIEiS IN" THE' LABOR FIELD 5599
The Chairman. Thank you, sir. We will continue.
Mr. Scott. I thank you.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Scott, when did you leave your office in the
teamsters and under what circumstances? Were you defeated in an
election, discharged, or did you resign ?
Mr. Scott. I was elected in 1932. I was the only candidate that
did not have any opposition. The fellows was not angry at me at any
time. They said 1 did a good job.
Senator Mundt. Did you mean 1952 ?
Mr. Scott. But in 1952, when I resigned, Jimmy Hoffa was very
mad because I quit. He said if I quit he would break both my arms
and my legs. I was removed as the vice president of local 614 by
Jim A. Hotf a through Dan Keating.
Senator Mundt. I am getting a little confused. You quit some
other job. You quit as secretary-treasurer ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Mundt. You voluntarily quit. Then they removed you as
vice president ?
Mr. Scott. That is right. He didn't have any authority at any
time to remove me. He tried to trump up some charges but I was
never notified of any charge against me and I was just on his say-so
removed.
Senator Mundt. How did he get this job done? Wliat right did
he have to remove you ? He didn't have the authority.
Mr. Scott. When you work for Jimmy Hoffa, you either do what
he tells you to or you don't work for him.
Senator Mundt. So he coerced somebody else who did have
authority.
Mr. Scott. The president of the local.
Senator Mundt. What is that ?
Mr. Scott. Dan Keating, who was president of local 614 about 6
months after I quit the federation job; at that time I was also a vice
president of the executive board of the local 614.
I tried to find out from Dan when there was an executive board
meeting, but I could never find out and they never had any date set.
You never had a regular meeting in that local. Then about 6 months
afterward I was told I was no loiiger a vice president.
Senator Mundt. That was about 1953.
Mr. Scott. It was in February of 1953.
Senator Mundt. At that time did you then get appointed to this
present position as a member of the barber inspection ?
Mr. Scott. No ; I didn't.
Senator Mundt. Wliat did you do in the interim from 1953 ? When
did you get this appointment ?
Mr. Scott. I got it in 1953 in September.
Senator Mundt. It was the same year that you lost your job ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Mundt. That is what I mean. That is a full-time job?
Mr. Scott. That is.
Senator Mundt. You are a member of that board now ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; I am.
5600 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN' THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Muistdt. You haven't told us one thing yet. What was it
that went on in the mind, of Mr. Scott that induced him to resign?
You had a good, powerful position in the labor movement. You were
a vice president, you were a secretary-treasurer, you were in the State
federation. Was it qualms of conscience ?
Mr. Scott. I resigned on July 2, 1952, because Jimmy and Bert
Brennan came to an executive board and suggested to the executive
officers of the Michigan federation that they change the constitution.
At that time under the constitution the only place that could be
changed was in the convention. They, in turn, changed the constitu-
tion, so I quit.
Senator Mundt. They changed it apparently pretty violently or
for some reason that you disapproved of. Could you dilate on that
a little bit?
Mr. Scott. They did a lot of things that I didn't approve of. But
every time I voiced my disapproval I had an argument with Jimmy
and Bert Brennan. They said I was dictatorial. I said that they
were a hell of a lot more dictatorial than I was, and that they were
not going to change the constitution on me because I was just elected
and if they wanted to change it they should have changed it in
convention.
Senator Mtjndt. What particular change did they consider so im-
portant that they would do it in this extra-legal manner ?
Mr. Scott. They were transferring my duties over to another
fellow.
Senator Mundt. In other words, they were apparently trying to
take away from you your power to stand in the way of the things
they were trying to achieve. Would that be a fair analysis ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; it would.
Senator Mundt. Quite understandably you were not going to let
them get by with that and when they did it without sanction of con-
vention, when they did it in an extra-legal manner, you quit and a
few months later they had you fired from your last remaining comiec-
tion with the teamsters.
Mr. Scott. At the time I quit, one of the vice presidents wrote out
his resignation.
Senator Mundt. Who was he ?
Mr. Scott. But he took it back because he got about $1,400 from
the local union or from the Michigan Federation of Labor that he was
not entitled to.
Senator Mundt. Who was that ?
Mr. Scott. He is now dead ; John Fitzgerald.
Senator Mundt. Speaking as one member of the committee, I want
to salute a man who stands by his principles and convictions to the
point where you are willing to resign from what probably was a lucra-
tive job — at least it sounds like a lucrative job to a country boy from
South Dakota — I salute you for standing by your guns.
Mr. Kennedy. I have just a couple of questions.
Going back to Turk Prujanski
Senator Mundt. I am saying that as a Republican, and even though
you are a Democrat.
Mr. Scott. I haven't testified vet to what I am.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5601
Senator Mundt. Some things this committee knows without getting
it from the lips of the witness.
Mr. Scott. Oh.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Mr. Scott, in connection with tlie information you
received from Mr. Kehoe regarding TurkPrujanski, where would you
meet Mr. Kehoe to receive that information ?
Mr. Scott. I would meet him in his room at the Fort Shelby Hotel.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee who had the room next
door ?
Mr. Scott. It was a member of the State police.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was working on this matter ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Kennedy. He often would hear of the meetings between you
and Mr. Kehoe ?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. The second thing I want to ask you about is on the
question of the delegates to the national convention.
Were you ever appointed as a delegate to the national convention of
the teamsters ?
Mr. Scott. I believe in 1050 when Dave Beck was elected
Mr. I^NNEDY. 1952 that was.
Mr. Scott. Well, no, it couldn't have been, because I was still with
the teamsters when he was elected out in California. I believe it was
1950.
Mr. Kennedy. Anyway, were you appointed a delegate?
Mr. Scott. I was.
Mr. Kennedy. My point is, was there any election of delegates at
that time ?
Mr. Scott. No ; they weren't. They were appointed by Dan Keat-
ing.
Mr. Kennedy. The rank-and-file members never had any control
over that?
]\Ir. Scott. It was never brought up to a meeting of the rank and
file.
Mr. Kennedy. You actually never went to the meeting or conven-
tion yourself ; is that right ?
IVIr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all at this time, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Scott, whether you are a Democrat or Repub-
lican or just a good American, I certainly want to commend you for
your courage and express the appreciation of this committee and. I
believe, of the rank and file of the teamsters union and all the rank-
and-file members of unions everywhere and of the citizenship of this
country for the cooperation you have given the committee and for
your willingness to be of assistance to those of us who have the re-
sponsibility for trying to discover these evil practices and improper
practices that are going on, so that your Congress may enact appro-
priate remedial legislation in the hope that we can prevent these
abuses in the future. You have my thanks. I know you have the
thanks of every member of this committee and every Member of Con-
gress, and, I think, of the American people. Thank you very much.
Mr. Scott. I wish to thank you and the ccfmmittee, and I would like
to offer one suggestion, and that is, if Congress would give to labor-
89330— 57— pt. 14 21
5602 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
organization members the right to go into our local courts and get
redress it would be a big help in straightening out the labor move-
ment.
They say you should take it up through labor channels, and that is
the way the court rules. Well, if you do that, you would never get
any redress in the teamsters union.
The Chairman. You would get it up before a stacked jury to start
with.
Mr. Scott. If it was made a law that you could go into court and
get redress, a lot of the local members would do it, and, on top of it,
it would make the local officers realize that they could be taken into
court when they did something that was not ethical or right.
The Chairman. You believe, as I do, and I am sure every member
of this committee, Mr. Scott, that, if we can get the control of unionism
back in the hands of the rank-and-file members who pay the dues,
where they can protect themselves, we will have little trouble getting
these things cleaned up ; is that correct ?
Mr. Scott. You would get all the bad influences out of the labor
movement, because the rank and file then would have some redress.
Right now, the average member will not say anything about his local
union because he is afraid of being expelled or kicked out of the
union. In addition to saying that, I will say the employers are every
bit as guilty as the laboring man.
The Chairman. When they conspire with them to do these things?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. I agree with you.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Scott, in order for your court procedure — and
it is a very constructive and very persuasive suggestion — I don't know
anything about its practicality and I don't want to pass upon it at this
time because I want to study it, but it is a new suggestion and it is an
intriguing one — for that to become effective, wouldn't you need some
kind of collateral legislation requiring unions to keep books and rec-
ords and to make them available to the individual union member so
that he would know when to go into court to seek redress and what
to seek it for ?
Mr. Scott. I will say right now that I am a member of two other
local unions. By my local-union membership I am affiliated with
internationals. You don't need a new bookkeeping system in local
unions or the international. All you need is a right for the local mem-
bers to take them into court if they don't keep the books the way they
are supposed to. It can be compelled by the local membership if he
can get redress in our courts. He cannot get redress in the inter-
national.
Senator Mundt. I am simply thinking in terms of how a local
teamster, under the conditions that you described to the chairman,
when the books were inadequately kept and fictitiously recorded, would
know that those conditions prevailed and would, consequently, be able
to go to court and to Imow what to go to court about.
Mr. Scott. In local 614, 1 will say that the rank and file knows what
is going on, but they can't get any redress appealing to James Hoffa
because they have to first appeal to the local executive board and from
there to the joint council and from there to the international.
When they appeal to Jimmy Hoffa, he is the boss of local 614, and
he is not going to kick his own men out of office. But, if they could
niPROPEB ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5603
have got redress in the courts, then something coukl have been done.
The lawyers for the intei-national union claim that the membership
did not appeal through tlie regular procedure channeled by the con-
stitution. But Jimmy can do anything he wants to contrary to the
constitution, and who are you going to appeal to ?
Senator Mundt. I think we probably should round out the record,
since you mention that you are a member of two other unions. Have
you identified the unions of which you are presently a member?
Mr. Scott. I am a member of the barbers union and I am a mem-
ber of the State, County and Municipal Employees Union.
Senator Mundt. Thank yon .
The Chairman. Just one other question. I have received, since this
committee came into existence and I think sometime before, a great
many letters from rank-and-file members in which they point out
that if they complain they will lose their job. In other words, that
the business agent has the power to assign them to work. If they com-
plain, if they don't get along with the business agent, they are denied
the right to work. I wish you would comment on that and, from your
experience and knowledge, tell us if that practice prevails.
Mr. Scott. I am sorry to say that when I worked for the teamsters
union I was compelled to have a fellow fired because he objected to the
way the local was run, although I was able to, later, get him re-
employed. But he had lost his seniority.
The Chairman. Who caused you to fire him ?
Mr. Scott. Dan Keating, because he was questioning Dan on the
way — about how^ some things were run in the local. Dan said, "Go
down to the employer and tell him, Kapsonell, to fire this man." His
name was Miller.
The Chairman. In other words, they can go to the employer, and
that is one of the practices that have been reported to me, and say
simply, "You must get rid of this man ; otherwise, we will give you
trouble."
Mr. Scott. That is right.
The Chairman. They use that coercion to force the employer to
discharge the man, and then he loses his job.
Mr. Scott. If, the next day. you went down to tell the employer
to enforce the contract, he would tell you right to your face, "Well,
I did you a favor yesterday ; forget about the contract."
Senator Mundt. What would happen if the employer told you,
when you went down to get the man fired, "Go jump in the lake ; you
have no right to get him fired."
Mr. Scott. I have never seen or heard tell of an employer talking
to a business agent that way.
Senator Mundt. Maybe that is because we need a little more in-
testinal fortitude on the part of some of the employers. Suppose they
had done it. What would happen to the employer ? Anything ?
Mr. Scott. They could take retaliation against the employer. They
could stop his production the next day.
Senator Mundt. Do you think they would ?
Mr. Scott. Some would.
Senator Mundt. Do you think it is the fear that they might that
induces the employer to go along with these unfair practices against
an individual workingman ?
5604 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Scott. I thiiik honestly that the employer is more to blame
than the union official because in substance, take myself — I never was
accustomed to making over $100 a week. If you take the average
fellow that becomes a business agent and paid him $100 a week and
then the employer starts flaunting him in the face with vacations
and nice clothes and money and stuff of that sort, he is very apt to
take it. There is not too many that will not take it.
Senator Mundt. So that is a common practice, as you describe it.
The employers keep in the good graces of the business agent because
they can shut him up if they want to or cause him a lot of difficulty.
Mr, Scott. It is not a question of keeping him in good graces; it
is a question of dollars in his pocket.
Senator Mundt. That is right. But the thing that motivates him
to keep in the good graces of the business agent is the expectation of
more dollars in his pocket as an employer.
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Senator Mundt. So he buys him vacations, suits of clothes, enter-
tains him, and does him favors when he wants some good workman
fired because of some union problem. He fires him, because by doing
that he can make more money for himself.
Mr. Scott. He does make more money by himself.
Senator INIundt. It is a reprehensible practice on the part of the
employer, I want to say.
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I mentioned before the fact tliat next door to Mr.
Kehoe where there was a State policeman, that man is working at
his job and he is no longer with the State police.
Mr. Scott. No, he isn't.
]\Ir. Kennedy. And he has not been with them for some years.
Mr. Scott. No, he hasn't.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The CnxSiiKMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Scott.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Turk Prujanski.
The Chairman. The Chair will announce for the information of
anj' wlio might be under some other impression, Mr. Scott remains
under subpena of this committee and any molestation or any threat
will be in contempt of the Congress of the United States.
Stand and be sworn, please, sir.
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate Select Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Prujanski. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN PHUJANSKI, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, JEEOME WEBER
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Prujanski. Herman Prujanski, 1730 North Sycamore, Holly-
wood, Calif.
The Chairman. Your occupation ?
Mr. Prujanski. Not working at the moment.
The Chairman. Wliat is your past occupation ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5605
Mr. Prujanski. Bar owner, club owner, personnel management.
The Chairman. You have coujisel present "i
Mr. Prujanski. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Counsel, identify yourself for the record.
Mr. Weber. My name is Jerome Weber. I am an attorney from
Los Angeles, Calif.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Prujanski, you lived and worked in Detroit for
a period of time ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. You were there in 1945 ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Kennedy. You operated a bar there in 1945 ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. During that period of time you appeared before
a grand jury, the Murphy grand jury?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you testify before that grand jury in con-
nection with Mr. James Hoffa ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And you testified in connection with Mr. Orin De-
Mass ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You testified in connection with Mr. James Hoffa.
You remember that ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that.
Mr. Kennedy. You said you remembered it, Mr, Prujanski. You
just said you testified in connection with Mr, James Hoffa.
Mr. Prujanski. I got ahead of myself. I don't remember that.
I don't remember who I testified to at that time. It was 11 years ago.
Mr. Kennedy. Let us go through it. Did you mention Mr. James
Hoffa's name in the grand jury ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember testifying that you paid Mr.
James Hoffa between $5,000 and $10,000 ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that.
Mr. Kennedy. You deny that you testified to that ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember it, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You paid Mr. James Hoffa between $5,000 and
$10,000 which w^as to go to Mr. Orin DeMass of the liquor commis-
sion.
Mr. Prujanski. I definitely cannot remember that.
Mr. I^NNEDY. You do not remember ?
Mr, Prujanski. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny that you testified to that effect?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't deny it ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't deny it and I can't remember it.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember anything about it ?
Mr, Prujanski. No, sir.
Mr. KJENNEDY. Do you remember what you testified to before the
grand jury?
Mr. Prujanski. No ; I do not.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember anything about it ?
5606 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir.
The Chairman. When did your memory fail you ? We are having
some phenomenal losses of memory around here. You should know
at least when it fails you.
JNIr. Pkujanski. I have had an accident about a year and a half
ago.
The Chairman. What was the accident? To what part of your
body?
Mr. Prujanski. All parts of my body. I was laid up for about
4 months and practically was very, very sick and it is a long, long
time. It is a hard way to remember.
The Chairman. Do you remember when you were born ?
Mr. Prujanski. No ; I don't.
The Chairman. Were you there ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember.
The Chairman. Do you remember anything in your past life prior
to the time you were injured ?
Mr. Prujanski. A few things.
The Chairman. Do you remember going before that grand jury?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes ; I do remember that.
Tlie Chairman. You do remember that. So the little accident
didn't com}:>letely destroy your memory ; did it ?
Mr. Prujanski. Not completely ; no, sir.
The Chairman. Now, let us get inside the grand jury. Were you
sworn there as you were sworn here? Do you remember that?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that.
The Chairman. Do you remember whether you were asked any
questions ?
Mr. Prujanski. I was asked so many questions by so many people
I can't remember anything that was said.
The Chairman. Were you asked questions?
Mr. Prujanski. I imagine I was.
The Chairman. Not your imagination. Don't you know you were ?
Mr. Prujanski. I still say I imagine I was, sir.
The Chairman. Let us imagine a little further. Can you imagine
you were asked questions about Jimmy Hoff a ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember what was said there. I can't
remember those. I just can't remember.
The Chairman. You just can't remember?
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. I am going to desist, I
don't mind telling you. Proceed and ask him these questions. I think
we have a remedy for this.
Mr. Kennedy. According to the information that we have that has
been verified, Mr. Prujanski testified that he paid to Mr. James
Hoffa several thousand dollars in connection with having his liquor
license restored. Is that true or not, Mr. Pru j anski ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember what I talked to him about.
Mr. IvENNEDY. I am not asking whether you talked to him about
it. Do you remember testifying to that ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't; no sir.
Senator Mundt. Do you remember ever having your liquor license
revoked ?
EVIPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THE I/ABOR FIELD
5607
Yes, sir.
Why was it revoked ?
I think it was taken away for hidden ownership
Concealed ownership ?
That is right.
Was it subsequently restored?
Did you go back
You never got it restored ?
No, sir.
You do remember losing it ?
I remember losing the license ; yes.
What did you do after you lost the license to make
Mr. Prujakski.
Senator Mundt.
Mr. Prujanski.
at the time.
Senator Mundt.
Mr. Prujanski.
Senator Mundt
in the liquor business later ?
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir,
Senator Mundt.
Mr. Prujanski.
Senator Mundt.
Mr. Prujanski.
Senator Mundt.
a living?
Mr. Prujanski. I didn't do anything for a long, long time.
Senator Mundt. You have been living a long, long time since.
You must have done something since.
Mr. Prujanski. Please believe me, I was broke. I practically had
no money and borrowed myself silly from everybody in the world
trying to get along at the time.
Senator Mundt. I am not denying that. I am just questioning.
You have not been unemployed ever since you lost that liquor
license ?
Mr. Prujanski. No; I came to California and started to go to
work out there.
Senator Mundt. It is j^our testimony that you never had employ-
ment in Michigan again after you lost the license ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes ; I went to work there in a modernization com-
pany there.
Senator Mundt. What ?
Mr. Prujanski. Modernization company for a while.
Senator Mundt. That is when you were a personnel manager ?
Mr. Prujanski.
Senator Mundt.
Mr. Prujanski.
No ; that came later on.
What did you do at the modernization company ?
I was working there.
Senator Mundt. Were you a salesman?
Mr. Prujanski. I was a salesman.
You were a salesman for the modernization com-
Senator Mundt
pany ?
Mr. Prujanski.
Senator Mundt.
Mr. Prujanski.
Senator Mundt.
Mr. Prujanski.
Senator Mundt.
Mr. Prujanski,
That is right.
In Detroit ?
That is right.
For how long ?
For about 3 months.
And then what did you do ?
I didn't do nothing hardly at all. Then I went
to work for a few weeks for a juke company, Vince Meli.
Senator Mundt. What did you do for them ?
Mr. Prujanski. I went out and hit locations.
Senator Mundt. How long did you work for them ?
Mr. Prujanski. Just about 30 days or 45 days.
Senator Mundt. Then you quit that job ?
5608 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Prujanski. Yes, sir.
Senator MuNDT. Wliat did you do then ?
Mr. Prujanski. Then I think I went to California right after that.
Senator Mundt. You had two jobs after you lost the liquor license.
One was with the modernization company as a salesman for 90 days,
then after a brief period of unemployment, with the jukebox company
for 30 to 60 days. You had no other employment in Michigan, and
then you went to California ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. PruJx\nski. I can't remember that.
Senator Mundt. You remember those two jobs ?
Mr. Prujanski. I remember working for Bill Buifalino for a few
weeks.
Senator Mundt. In the jukebox company ?
Mr. Prujanski. No. I went out with Bill for a few weeks, but I
never got paid for it. I just went out with him.
Senator Mundt. What kind of work was that ?
Mr. Prujanski. He was at that time more or less president of juke-
boxes and he was organizing gas stations at the time.
Senator Mundt. This was the second jukebox job ?
Mr. Prujanski. No. This is as his nephew or his brother-in-law,
rather.
Senator Mundt. You gave another name in connection with tlie first
jukebox company.
Mr. Prujanski. Vince Meli.
Senator Mundt. Is that the one Buffalino was with ?
Mr. Prujanski. No; Buffalino was president of the jukeboxes. I
met Buffalino through Vince Meli.
Senator Mundt. So after you quit working for Vince Meli you went
to work for Buffalino?
Mr. Prujanski. I wouldn't say it was work. I went out with him
for a while, 3 or 4 weeks, and tried to get in the union and tried to
get a job and it didn't materialize.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Vince Meli own this bar that you were operat-
ing?
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir. The bar was owned by myself and Lou
and Sam Bernstein.
Mr. Ejennedy. You say you were working for Vincent Meli for a
while ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And then you were w^orking for Mr. Buffalino,
Was he with the union or an operator ?
Mr. Prujanski. He was with the union.
Mr. Kennedy. You started working for the union ?
Mr. Prujanski. I never worked for the union.
Mr. Kennedy. You worked with Mr. Buffalino ?
Mr. Prujanski. I worked with him trying to get in the union, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You can remember those incidents, can you ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you remember when you appeared before the
grand jury and gave this information, and subsequently you left for
California ? Right after appearing before that grand jury ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you go to California ?
EVIPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THEl LABOR FIELD 5609
Mr, Prujanski. At that time I left for California because I was
not feeling too good. I had lung trouble before this and my dad was
not feeling good.
Mr. Kennedy. Your dad was not feeling good ?
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he in California ?
Mr. Prtjjanski. No, sir ; he was here in town.
Mr. Kennedy. In Detroit?
Mr. Prujanski. In Detroit, in a hospital.
Mr. Kennedy. You thought you would make your father feel better
by you going to California t
Mr. Prujanski. Oh, no ; no, no.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't understand the fact that he didn't feel well
and was in a hospital in Detroit and that would make him improve hj
you going to California.
Mr. Prujanski. Let me put it this way. After I lost my bar, I
figured I had nothing left in the city of Detroit, and I had been in
California before and I knew quite a few people out there. I figured
I would see what I could do. I just took a trip out there. WhenI
was in California after the grand jury, at that time I was taken iii
by the FBI on a fugitive warrant and brought back to Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason ?
Mr, Prujanski. At that time they claimed I was a fugitive.
Mr. Kennedy. That you had fled to California ?
Mr. Prujanski. That I fled to California trying to avoid testifying
before the grand jury.
Mr. Kennedy. It was not that Hoffa and his people approached you
and told you to go to California ?
Mr. Prujanski. They absolutely did not.
Mr. Kennedy. You just went to California?
Mr. Prujanski. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is because your father was not feeling well.
Mr. Prujanski. I was disgusted. I was not feeling well. I lost
my bar. I had nothing to live for in Detroit. I wanted to go to
California and take my mother and dad, which I eventually did.
Mr. Kennedy. You came back on the fugitive warrant ?
]Mr. Prujanski. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you testify then what you knew about Mr.
Hoffa? ...J
Mr, Prujanski, No ; I didn't.
Mr, Kennedy. Wliat did you do then ?
Mr. Prujanski. At that time I got 60 days for contempt of court.
Mr. Kennedy. Why ?
Mr. Prujanski. Kef using to testify.
Mr, Kennedy. You refused to testify then ?
Mr. Prujanski. That is what they said.
Mr. Kennedy, Don't you know you refused to testify ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel,)
Mr, Kennedy, You know that ?
Mr. Prujanski. I took immunity and pled the fifth amendment,
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you testify regarding Mr. Hoffa and pay-
ing this money to Mr. Hoffa before the grand jury one time and refuse
the second time?
5610 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Prujanske. I will tell you the truth. I was so confused at the
time. They had my two partners before the grand jury, I do remem-
ber that, and they gave all kinds of stories. The next thing I knew 1
was in front of the grand jury and they were telling me, and I didn't
know what they were talking about.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the confusion ?
Mr. Prujanski. I really don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. You were brought back on October 22, 1946. I
have here your testimony.
What is your full name?
Herman Prujanski.
You have been previously sworn and testified before the grand jury.
Yes ; I have.
You originally appeared before the grand jury the 27th of June.
I refuse to answer any more questions.
On what grounds?
On the grounds it might incriminate me.
Mr. Kennedy. Why would it incriminate you ?
That is what it is ; I refuse any more questions.
Did you or did you not originally appear before the grand jury on the 27th of
June?
I refuse to answer any more questions.
On what ground?
I told you my ground.
On the grounds it might incriminate you?
Liable to. Just as I told you before.
What did you tell me?
I refuse to answer any more questions.
You have been here by vii-tue of a grand jury subjpena?
Yes, I am.
You have been sworn ?
Yes, I have ))y the court.
Previously and tonight?
I refuse to answer any more questions. I don't want to answer any more
questions. I am entitled to my rights, am I not? Throw me in jail. I don't
want to answer any more questions.
Do you know James R. Hoffa ?
I refuse to answer.
Did you see Mr. Hoffa on or about the 29th of October 1945?
I refuse to answer.
Do you know James Stewart?
I refuse to answer.
Please.
I refuse to answer. I am not going to answer. I am not going to testify.
Do you know Orin DeMass? Don't be so dramatic. Let the record show the
witness refuses to answer.
Mr. Paul. Let him refuse to answer.
The Witness. I refuse to answer any questions. Throw me in jail.
Did you make an appointment to see Mr. Stewart at his office in the Police
Headquarters Building on or about the 29th of October 1945?
Let me go home. Let me go to sleep. Let me think of this sleep. Let me
think this over, please.
Answer my question. Will you answer my question ?
Let me go home and go to sleep. I have not slept in three nights. I want
to think this over.
Mr. Kennedy. '\Vhat were you so worried about if you didn't have
any information for the grand jury ? You said :
No, I am nervous, tired, believe me. I won't answer any more questions. I
am sleepy.
Mr. Prujanski, I don't remember that.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5611
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember anything.
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that, sir. It was just all
confusion.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't you tell the police officer, Mr. James Stewart,
that you had been tlireatened ?
Mi'. Prujanski. Mr. Who?
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't you tell the police officer that you had been
threatened ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember telling that to anybody, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember that ?
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny that you told him that you had been
thi'eatened ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember telling him that?
Mr. Kennedy. Would you deny that you told him that ?
Mr. Prujanski. I just don't remember it.
Mr. Kennedy. It is a very peculiar situation. You had your liquor
license withdrawn ; you appeared before the grand jury and testified
to making this payment to Mr. Hoifa. Shortly after you appeared
before the gi-and jury, you left for California. You stayed in Cali-
fornia and were brought back on a fugitive warrant.
The next grand jury you refused to answer all questions on the
grounds it might tend to incriminate you. It is a most peculiar set
of circumstances, No. 1, and my reciting those for you certainly should
refresh your recollection as to what you told the first grand jury.
Mr. Prujanski. There was so much confusion, I was so mixed up
at the time, I don't, frankly, remember half the things that I did say.
I don't remember half the things that happened.
Mr. Kennedy. Who were you afraid of ?
Mr. Prujanski. I wasn't afraid of anybody.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you recall this incident when j'ou were out at a
racetrack? Two men walked up to you and told you that Jimmy
Hoffa said that it would be good for your health to get out of the
country.
Mr. Prujanski. I was sitting back here a few minutes ago, and the
gentleman who appeared before — I don't know his name — and I hap-
pened to hear the remark. I can say this: I remember no such a
thing happening at any time.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it true that Mr. Iloffa and otliers knew what
you testified before the grand jury ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't know that, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You do know that they had information as to what
testimony you gave before the grand jury ; isn't that right ?
Mr. Prujanski. I dont' know that.
Mr. Kennedy. You do not know anything about that ?
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Kennedy. You never discussed it with Mr. Hoff a ?
Mr. Prujanski. I never saw Mi-. Hoffa in tlie last 11 or 12 years.
Mr. Kennedy. You saw him before that?
Mr. Prujanski. I used to meet him at certain places with different
people. I had practically everybody in the country go to my place of
business. It was known as a place for celebrities. I had every kind
of class of people there.
5612 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. You said you had no information that Mr. Hoffa
was aware of what you would testify before the grand jury?
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir ; I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know anything about it ?
Mr. Prujanski. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You just decided that you would go to California
for your health ?
Mr. Prujanski. No, I was coming back. I was never subpenaed
by the grand jury.
Mr. Kennedy. Which one ?
Mr. Prujanski. The first grand jury. I was never subpenaed
there. I left and came back. I was intending to go back in a few
weeks. I knew I lost the bar. I wanted to go out and see what I
could do in California, because I had been in California before and I
like California. I figured as far as the city of Detroit is concerned,
I was through in the city of Detroit, so I might as well go to Cali-
fornia and see what I can do there. When I got there, I stood around
for about 6 or 7 weeks and the next thing I knew I was being pulled
in as a fugitive. I came back to the city of Detroit, and the next thing
I knew I was put before a grand jury, and the next thing I did know
I was put in jail for 60 days.
Senator Mundt. How did 3'ou happen to testif}' to tlie first grand
jury if you were not subpenaed ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that, sir. I don't know whether
I was picked up. I just can't recall whether I was picked up and
brought up there.
Senator Mundt. They would not pick you up unless they subpenaed
you.
Mr, Prujanski. I was never subpenaed.
Senator Mundt. Did you volunteer to go before the grand jury?
Mr. Prujanski. I imagine I did. I don't remember that.
Senator Mundt. You went there in the company of your two
partners.
Mr. Prujanski. No.
Senator Mundt. You said the two partners were in the grand jury
room with you.
Mr. Prujanski. My partners were called to the grand jury before
I was there.
Senator Mundt. They appeared separately.
Mr. Prujanski. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Then you were called to verify or disprove what
your partners had said ?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't recall that, sir, I really don't.
Senator Mundt. But you volunteered to go to the grand jury?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes, I did=
Senator Mundt. "Why did you want to go to the grand jury ?
Mr. Prujanski. Why did I want to go ?
Senator Mundt. Yes.
Mr. Prujanski. I was asked to go.
Senator Mundt. If you were asked, you didn't volunteer.
Mr. Prujanski. By that I mean I didn't fight them.
Senator Mundt. They requested you to come and you went with-
out a subpena.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5613
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember seeing a subpena.
Senator Mundt. Going in front of a grand jury is not much fmi.
I was once in front of one in tiie Hiss case. Shall I understand, then,
that somebody in authority in Detroit asked you to come before the
grand jury and you went but you went without having a subpena
filed against you ?
Mr. Peujanski. I think if I am not mistaken I was called. I was
on a vacation at the time with my mother somewhere up in northern
Michigan, and I called the bar — I used to check with the bar every
day — and I think one of my bartenders, I am not quite sure, told me
to come in, that the grand jury was looking for me. I came in and
gave myself up.
Senator Mundt. That is the first time.
Mr. Prujanski. Yes, sir ; that is the first time.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, the situation is this. We have had
this testimony from iSIr. Scott that he made the contact and received
the secret information regarding Mr. Prujanski 's testimony. ]Mr.
Prujanski testified before the grand jury that he had paid several
thousand dollars to Mr. Hoifa in connection with getting his liquor
license restored through Orin DeMass. That the liquor license of
Mr. Prujanski had been withdrawn. That subsequently Mr. Hoffa
and Mr. Prujanski were indicted for extortion. That Mr. Prujanski
left the district, went out to California, was brought back to testify
before the grand jury. That he took the fifth amendment before the
grand jury, and the indictment against Mr. Hoifa and Mr. DeMass
was dismissed on the grounds that the chief witness refused to testify.
Mr. Prujanski's memory does not seem to be so bad that he cannot
remember and tell this committee what he testified before the grand
jury.
Mr. Prujanski. Mr. Kennedy, I was never subpenaed — rather, I
was only called in as a witness at the time. I was not a party to that
action.
Mr. Kennedy. I didn't say that.
Mr. Prujanski. I thought you did.
Mr. Kennedy. I didn't say you were indicted. Did I saj^ Mr.
Hofia and Mr. Prujanski ?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. I meant Mr. Hoffa and Mr. De]\Iass, excuse me, who
were indicted in connection
Mr. Weber. He was the material witness.
Mr. Kennedy. You were the material witness. When you came
back and appeared before the grand jury, you refused to testify and
the indictments were dismissed. That is the situation. You 'won't
give us any information on it?
Mr. Prujanski. I can't give you any information if I can't re-
member.
Mr. Kennedy. I would think it would be a rather important inci-
dent in your life, and you could remember whether you testified that
you paid somebody several thousands of dollars, particularly James
Hoifa and the head of the Liquor Commission of the State of Michi-
gan. It is not something that happens every day.
Mr. Prujanski. I never paid anybody any money. We never paid
anybody any nickel to get our license back or tiy to get the license
back at the time.
5614 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. IvEXNEDY. Did you agree to pay anybody any money?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that. I do remember that we
were trying to go to all sources to save the bar, because it was one of
the best bars.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you remember agreeing to pay Mr. Hoffa any
money '?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't remember that.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay Mr. Hoffa any money ?
Mr. Prujanski. Positively not.
Mr. Kennedy. You can remember that, but you don't know whether
you had any discussions ?
Mr. Prujanski. I talked to thousands of people trying to save the
bar. That is the truth. I tried to talk to anybody about saving that
bar. I admit that.
Mr. Kennedy. There is no reason why you would talk to a labor
union official, JSIr. Hoffa, about paying him money to save a bar.
Mr. Prujanski. I spoke to an awful lot of people.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you think it is possible that you did talk to him
about paying him some money to save the bar ?
ISIr. Prujanski. Anything could be possible.
Mr. Kennedy. That is possible?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Air. Kennedy. Mr. Attorney, he can answer the question.
Mr. Weber. He is trying to be so accommodating I don't want him
to attempt to mislead you.
Mr. Kennedy. This is accommodating.
Senator ]\Iundt. Let us try it when he is not so accommodating.
Let him be Dr. Jekyll for a while.
ISIr. Kennedy. Those are the facts, Mr. Chairman. I just once
again point out that I don't believe this is the sort of incident that
even in Mr. Prujanski's life happens every day. I would think it
would be something that he could remember, and that the ordinary
person would remember and he deems that his accident was not so
l3ad that he can't remember some incidents. He can remember that
he didn't pay Mr. Hoffa. I would think he could remember whether
he had this conversation or not. or whether he testified this before the
grand jury. It just does not make any sense at all.
The Chairman. Did you go before the grand jury the first time be-
fore or after you lost your liquor license ?
Mr. Prujanski. I think after we lost our liquor license.
The Chairman. It was after you lost it ?
Mr. Prujanski. I think it was. I am not sure.
The Chairman. Did you ever lose a liquor license on any other
occasion except that time ?
Mr. Prujanski. The only license I have lost, yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is the only liquor license you ever lost?
Mr. Prujanski. Yes, sir.
The Chlmrman. You went to great lengths and made every effort
you could to get it restored.
Mr. Prujanski. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That was a kind of serious blow to vou; was it
not?
Mr. Prujanski. It certainly was. It was my life.
IMPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5615
The Chaikmax. It was your life. In other words, your livelihood
was involved, and you made every eli'ort to get your license back.
Now you say you can't remember what you told the grand jury. Do
you think anybody believes that^
Mr. Prujanski. Let me put it this way. I went to hundreds of
people there. Ask anybody.
The Chairman. I know, but you didn't go to hundreds of grand
juries. You might go to hundreds of people, but }^ou didn't go to
hundreds of grand juries. That is the one incident in your life that
you know you remember.
Mr. Prujanski. No ; I can't remember that, sir.
The Chairman. You think anybody believes that?
Mr. Prujanski. I don't know.
The Chairman. xVnything further?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. We have made an issue in one case. I am going
to make it in this one. I am going to find out if there is any way to
protect the courts and other tribunals and congressional committees
against perjury by pretending loss of memory. With the permission
of the committee, I am going to again send this record to the Justice
Department and ask it to give it every attention.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman — reserving the right to object, and
I am not going to object, because I concur with you completely — may
I suggest that if we do that, I think that the Justice Department of
the United States should be able to receive from the State of Michigan
such cooperation that it will open to them the minutes of this first
grand jury, wliicli will prove pretty definitely what the present wit-
ness said before the first grand jury. I would suggest that the De-
partment of Justice get the petition from us, and take that as the first
step of approach — because if we had been able to obtain the minutes
of the first grand jury, we would know exactly what was said by the
witness, regardless of his strange loss of memory which seems to have
blotted out only the experiences he had before the grand jury and
nothing before or after.
The Chairman. There are two devices being used to obstruct the
progress and work of this committee by witnesses who take the fifth
amendment capriciously, not in good faith, but who use that device
to keep from telling the committee the truth, giving the committee
information the committee needs, and that comes within its function,
and there are others who are using the device of pretending loss of
memory. In my book the first is less reprehensible than the second.
I hope that the Justice Department will find some way of handling
this matter, and the courts will sustain conviction which it is per-
fectly obvious from every standpoint of logic and good sense that this
device is being employed in this fashion.
Senator Mundt. I think, now that the witness has been notified, Mr.
Chairman, of the intention of the committee, I should ask him this :
Do you still contend that you cannot i-emember what you said to the
first grand jury?
Mr. Prujanski. I can't remember what happened at the grand
jury ; no, sir.
Senator Mundt. You say that under oath now ?
Mr. Prujanski. I certainly do. I cannot remember.
5616 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chaikmax. The witness may stand aside. The committee will
take a 5-minute recess.
(Present at the time of taking the recess: Senators McClellan and
Mundt.)
(Short recess.)
(Present at the time of resuming the session: Senators McClellan
and Mundt.)
The Chairman. Let us proceed with the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Bernard L. Bialkin.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give
before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Bialkin. I do.
TESTIMONY OF BERNARD L. BIALKIN AND MARGARET K. BIALKIN
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name, your place of resi-
dence, and your business or occupation.
Mr. Bialkin. My name is Bernard L. Bialkin, 16662 Cruse, Detroit,
Mich. I operate and manage the Cass Auto Wash, Inc., in Detroit
city.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, sir. Do you have counsel
present ?
Mr. Bialkin, No, I don't, sir. May I have permission — my wife is
here. She has been here throughout this period involved in this
thing, and I would like to have her at my side to help me along in any
details.
The Chairman. The request is granted. We are very glad to have
your wife come here.
Senator Mundt. Is it your thought that you might like to have her
answer some questions ? If so, we should have her sworn.
Mr. Bialkin. If it is the desire and wish of the committee.
The Chairman. You may be sworn in the event we need to ask you
any questions. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Margaret K. Bialkin. I do.
The Chairman. You each waive the right of counsel ?
Mr. Bialkin. Yes, we do.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Bialkin, you run an auto wash ; do you ?
Mr. Bialkin. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy, You have had some negotiations with local 985 of
the teamsters ?
Mr. Bialkin. Xo negotiations.
Mr. Kennedy. You have had some discussions ?
Mr. Bialkin. I have had some dealings with them ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Mr. William Buffalino ?
Mr. Bialkin. Correct, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And local 985 is the union that also handles the coin-
operated machines ; isn't that right ?
Mr. Bialkin, That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. It operates the auto wash and the coin-operated
machines.
Mr. Bialkin. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITiES IN TUB LABOR FIELD 5617
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have had some testimony yester-
day regarding both matters and this will be further information re-
garding that.
Were you approached in 1951 by Mr. William Buff alino ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes; toward the end of 1951 we had dealings with
Mr. Buff alino; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Had he approached your employees about becoming
members of the union ?
Mr. BiALKiN. To my knowledge ; no, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He just came to you; is that right ?
Mr. BiALKiN. No; let me put it in the proper background and
framework. In early 1951 Mr. Buff alino, Turk Prujanski, and others
started to make the rounds of the auto washes in the Detroit area in a
so-called organizing. This organizing consisted of their request that
the owners pay initiation of $5 per man and $3 per month dues; in
cases where these employers paid that — the employers, not the men,
paid that — there were recognition agreements signed between
Buffalino's union and the employer. Those that didn't had lots of
trouble afterward.
Mr. Kennedy. What would they do as far as the employees were
concerned ? Did they actively become members of the union ?
Mr. BiALKiN. As testimony was introduced in the circuit court later
on, it showed that there was absolutely no contact with the employees.
Mr. Kennedy. At least initially back in 1951 the situation was that
they would just use fictitious names as far as employees were
concerned ?
Mr. BiALKiN. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. Just take any list of names ?
Mr. BiALKiN. After the recognition agreements were signed and
the money paid to Mr, Bulfalino, that was part of the coverup or to
get so-called authorization cards with fictitious names so that his
records would show he had some nominal employees.
Mr, Kennedy, For those who did not sign up, there would be a
picket line ?
Mr. BiALKiN. The threat of picket lines.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you bring this to the attention of the prosecut-
ing attorney in Wayne County ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes. A few of us, including my wife, went to the
special investigating squad of the police department and they in
turn — I think there were about 20 of us — referred us to the prosecut-
ing attorney. We laid the facts before them and a few days after-
ward were told that they could do nothing. They said if any action
were taken, w^e would have to take it into circuit court on our own.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you take some further action ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Along about June there were 2 or 3 refused— 2 or 3
owners refused — to pay him this money that Mr. Buffalino and Pru-
janski had demanded. A picket line was set up over the weekend.
Dexter Auto Wash was one, Spic & Span were another within a
period of 2 weeks and a few of us on our own took a show cause order
into circuit court showmg why this picket should not be enjoined,
and the illegal activities banned.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it banned ? What did the court hold ?
89330 — 57— pt. 14 22
5618 i]viPROPER AcrrvrriEs est the labor field
Mr. BiALKiN. Testimony was taken over a period of, I think,
stretching over 4 or 5 weeks — I forget now — in which various people
testified as to the payoff — payments to Mr. Buffalino, that his owners'
payoffs to Mr. Buffalino, and threats, the fact that there were no
employees involved.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. You have given us the outline of it. What
finally happened ?
Mr. BiALKiN. The union asked and an injunction was granted in
September 1951, enjoining the union — it was a permanent injunction —
enjoining the union from any of these activities. There were some
other clauses. The union had to return all of the money that they
had collected at that time as far as the people who had been a party to
the suit. That was about the extent of it. I have a copy of the in-
junction if you want it. Excuse me. All of the contracts had been
signed under duress were declared null and void.
Mr. Kennedy. You testified ; did you not ?
Mr. BiALKiN. No ; I did not testify at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did your wife ?
jNIr. BiALKiN. I was present. We were present at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did your wife testify ?
Mr, BiALKiN. No ; not at that particular time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you receive any threats during this period of
time?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes. The same day that we had made appearance
at the prosecuting office, that afternoon Mr. Buffalino came ranting
and raving through some two auto washes and he said we were going
to get that Mrs. B. My wife had been the only woman among that
group, and she evidently stood out and someone informed him — this
was supposed to have been all secret — someone informed him that
Mrs. B. had been there. He said, "We are going to get that Mrs. B."
Mrs. BiALKiN. Sir; while we did not testify, we were very active
in this court case. Mr. Buffalino was well aware of it, and we sat at
counsel table.
Mr. Kennedy. I see. Did you receive any threats yourself?
Mr. BiALKiN. Not at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you appear before the Coolihan grand jury
subsequently, or did something intervene ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes ; something intervened. On or about beginning
October 1951, or thereabouts, we suddenly were involved, the wife
and myself and 1 or 2 other autowashes, who had been active in this,
in a whole bunch of lawsuits in the circuit court. This dragged on for
well over a year.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Hiat kind of lawsuits ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Contempt citations, threats to employees, cheating the
men, all fictitious and lies. The courts recognized them as such. As
a matter of fact, the case went so badly that in October 1952 the
union's attorneys asked for a recess and postponement and never came
back. They used perjured testimony.
Mr. Kennedy. There were charges that the union made against
you after that ?
Mr. BiALKiN. All means of harassment.
Mr. Kennedy. Then what happened after that?
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THEi LABOR FIELD 5619
Mr. BiALKiN. I believe in 1953 I was subpenaed and appeared as a
witness before Grand Juror Coolihan in Detroit in connection with
the investigation of Mr. Bntfalino and others and his activities.
Mr. Kennedy. And you testified at that time ?
Mr. BiALKiN. I testified at that tinie.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you receive any threats thereafter ?
Mr. BiALKiN. No ; I did at the time of this trial in Detroit on extor-
tion when I appeared. I was subpenaed and appeared as a witness.
Mr. IvENNEDY. That is Mr. Buffalino's trial for extortion?
Mr. BiALKiN. Mr. Buffalino and others.
Mr. Kennedy. He was acquitted ?
Mr. BiALKiN. He was acquitted.
Mr. Kennedy. You say you received some threats during that time ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Ivennedy. From whom?
Mr. BiALKiN. Mr. Buffalino and Lawrence Welsh, another official
of the union.
Mr. Ivennedy. Mr. Lawrence Welsh.
Mr. BiALKiN. Welsh, W-e-1-s-h.
Mr. Ivennedy. He is the gentleman we had testimony about yester-
day, Mr. Chairman, that suggested to one of the car owners that he
bring his fleet of cars to Mr. Ziggie Snyder's place rather than the
place he was bringing them.
Wliat did Mr. Welsh say to you ?
Mr. BiALKiN. They caught me in a corridor during recess in court
and they told me, "We are going to get you, but good."
Mr. Kennedy. Then what occurred after that ? Did you have any
more dealings with tlie union after tliat ?
Mr. BiALKiN. I didn't have any dealing with the union, no connec-
tion either through myself or my attorney, between 1952 and August
22, 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you hear at that time ?
Mr. BiALKiN. On August 22, I received a letter, registered letter,
signed by Mr. Buffalino from local 985 — I have a copy of it, if you
want I can read it or else outline the important details — in Avhich he
claimed he represented a majority of the men, the employees.
Senator ISIundt. How many employees do you have ?
Mr. BiALKiN. It runs about 16, 17, 18. It varies. He represented
a majority of the men, that I had refused to deal and negotiate with
him, that he was asking — that he was serving me with a strike notice—
and he was asking for an election by the State labor mediation board.
A similar letter went out to the State labor mediation board under the
same elate.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go down to the State labor board ?
Mr. BiALKiN. May I state this in connection with that letter ? The
statement that he represented the majority of the men was a complete
falsehood as was later proven. That I had refused to negotiate and
deal with him was a complete lie. I had not had any dealings with
him, either myself or through my attorney, since some time in 1952.
That he wanted an election was a complete lie, too, as subsequent
events proved.
The Chairman. The Chair will suggest that you leave a copy of
the letter with the committee.
5620 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. "VVliat happened after that? That was on August
22, 1956, that you received the letter?
Mr. BiALKiN. August 22, 1956, on a Wednesday. I recall it very
vividly. I received this letter— it may be interesting — about 10 : 30
i]i the morning. By 1 o'clock I received a telephone call from a
former employee of mine. He had left me along about January of
1956. He said, "I have just been over to Buffalino and you are going
to get a picket line in a few days."
In the meantime when I i-eceived the letter I called up my attorney,
Mr. Bashara, and I read him the contents of the letter. I said this
fellow wants an election. I want you to contact the mediation board
and tell them that we agi^ee to an election. We want this election that
he claims.
The next day I recall we received a form letter from the mediation
board stating that they had received the communication from Mr.
Buffalino and they named this mediator that had been appointed to
look into the case, and the next thing I know, before I even have a
chance to get the letter out, Friday morning at 10 o'clock, I have the
picket line in front of my place.
Mr. Kennedy. That is on August 24 ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Two days after you received the letter?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy, They started picketing your place.
Mr. BiALKiN. They started picketing my place.
Mr. Kennedy. Were any of your employees on the picket line?
Mr. BiALKiN. Xot a one. All of my men were working.
Mr. Kennedy. All of your men were working ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes, sir. They arrived in this morning in real storm-
trooper fashion, took over half of the block, set up headquarters
across the street in a store, Mr. Danny Marvin, complete with am-
plifier system.
Mrs. BiALKiN. Danny Marvin was a former teamster official and
still is, and has a police record.
Mr. BiALKiN. They took over possession of adjacent buildings and
stoops, the hotel across the street. Later on the police had to remove
them.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he do then ? What steps did he take ? Did
you try to get an election ?
Mr, BiALKiN. Yes, sir. I myself went over about 1 o'clock that
same day to the Mediation Board and delivered a letter in which I
requested this election that Mr. Buffalino wanted. We sent a telegram
to Mr. Buffalino advising him that he was illegally picketing us, not
only in violation of the law, but in violation of the permanent injunc-
tion that had been granted back in 1951.
Mr. Kennedy. What occurred then ?
Mr. BiALKiN. I could relate some conversations that I had with
these people that afternoon. Mr, Welsh told me, he said, "You are
never going to get an election from us. If you think you are going to
get any relief in the courts, you are mistaken. Judge Xeuenfeld is not
going to give you any relief." We were told plenty of other things.
Senator Mundt, What did Mr. Welsh want you to do ?
IMPROPEIR ACTIVITIES EST THE K\BOR FIELD 5621
Mr. BiALKiN. May I stnte the reason why this picket line was set up ?
Senator Mfndt. That is what I am trying to find out.
Mr. BiALKiN. It was set up for several reasons. He felt I had been
responsible, the wife and myself, for bringing him to court back in
1951 and stopping his activities back then.
Senator Muxdt. Something must have happened in between time,
or they would not have waited until 1956 for something that you did
inl95i.
Mr. BiALKiN. He had been busy with the courts for one in his
extortion trial. He did change his tactics in his organization activi-
ties or so-called organization activities in the car-wash business. He
no longer went around to the auto-wash owners and asked them to pay
the money. He went around to auto-wash owners and under threat of
a picket line he forced a good many — and let me tell you there is not a
worse threat that a businessman fears than a picket line
Mrs. BiALKix. Especially in Detroit.
Mr. BiALKiiSr. Under threat of picketing, he got a good many con-
tracts signed between the owners and Mr. Buffalino. The men were
not involved. These contracts called for collection of 10 cents dues
per man per day, which the owner had to turn over each month to
the union.
Senator Mundt. We had a witness here who had been assessed that
10 cents per day.
The Chairman. You know that goes on.
Mr. BiALKiivr. I have seen some of the contracts. That definitely is
the case.
The Chaiemax. You Iniow the 10 cents a day is exacted out of the
workers ?
Mr. Bialkin. Yes; and there were some beautiful clauses put in
the contracts whereby the owners lived and got along with Mr. Buffa-
lino, and these contracts were not lived up to. I have heard it over
and over again both from owners and employees that have come into
my place looking for work.
Mrs. BiAiMvix. The men have to pay 10 cents a day for the privi-
lege of working. Mr. Buffalino cannot contact these men. It is
through the employer. The employer deducts 10 cents a day for
every man that works in his place of business.
Senator Mundt. Do any of these men participate in union activi-
ties?
^[rs. BiALKiN. No. Some have told us that they don't bother to go
through the formality of having authorization cards.
Senator Mundt. The colored boy w^ho testified yesterday said he
didn't know he was in the union.
Mr. BiALKiN. Tliat is very often the case. That is what a good
many employees told me. The men do not know the terms of these
contracts that are signed.
Mrs. BiALKiN. Mr. Buffalino is organizing the owners, forcing
them to sign contracts for the employees so that the owner can stay in
business. Otherwise there is a picket line as in our case.
Senator Mundt. It is a system of coercion of the owner.
Mrs. BiALKiN. We can name names of owners who had a picket line
of 2 or 3 days and then signed up. One man. Jack Barsha, had a
picket line on Friday. On Sunday he signed up. He didn't dare
5622 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
have the attorney look at the contract. He said he was phiinly scared.
He said when they come in those big black Cadillacs and those bullies,
3'ou would be scared, too.
Senator Muxdt. It must be that you pay your people union wages
or better or they would not be satisfied and they would be wanting to
get into a union.
Mr. BiALKix. I do, sir.
Senator Mundt. There would be no benefit to the men in belonging
to the union and in fact, they would be 10 cents a day worse off.
Mr. BiALKiN. It is not only that, they seem to feel so. May I state
that the very day that he started picketing me, on August 24, 1956. he
signed a contract. Mr. Buffalino signed a contract with Tiger Auto
Wash, if I remember correctly.
This place had been picketed for 2 days prior, and the owner told
me that the men did not want it. but he just could not take it. The
terms of the contract, the minimums, the guaranties, are a whole lot
less than my men make without a contract.
The Chaikmax. So those contracts are not for the benefit of workers
at all?
Mr. BiALKix. Xo. sir.
The Chairmax. They are simply another instrumentality of extor-
tion. That is true : is it not ?
Mrs. Blvlkix. That must mean for Mr. Buffalino at least $100,000
a year income.
Mr. Kexx'^edy. I do not think that you know about that. You have
not examined his records.
Mr. BiALKix. If you figure the number of auro workers, it is
cheaper for an employer to sign with Mr. Buffalino than to stand the
risk of a picket line because the employer has nothing to lose. It just
means making his men pay imion dues.
Senator Mrxnr. How many men in Detroit did you estimate have
to pay this 10 cents per day tax to Mr. Buffalino ?
Mr. BiALKix. I don't know how many, but there are well over 200,
maybe close to 300 auto washers in Detroit.
Senator Mfx'dt. There are between 200 and 300?
Mr. BiALKix'. Yes. sir, and the number of employees varies from
10 to maybe 50 or 60 or maybe more.
Senator Mfndt. You mean there are 200 auto wash businesses?
Mr. BiALKix'. Two hundred to three hundred.
Senator Mux'dt. Auto-wash businesses ?
Mr. BiALKix. Yes. sir.
Senator Muxdt. And not employees, but businesses.
Mr. BiALKTx. Yes. sir. in the metropolitan area.
Senator Muxdt. And they would average about how many em-
ployees?
]Mr. BiALKix'. There are some run as many as 50 or 60 employees
a day.
Senator Muxdt. And some run down to 2 or 3 ?
Mr. BiALKix'. Maybe: I don't even consider those auto washers.
You are thinking in terms of gas stations, but the auto M-ashers. about
the minimum. I think, runs about 15.
Mr. Kexxedy. I think there are about 200 places, and, according
to our records, maybe. 15 or 12 is an average of employees. How long
did this picket line last, then ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD o623
Senator Mundt. I think I ou^ht to correct the record. I under-
stood you to say there were 200,000. What you said was 200 or 300
auto-wash places.
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Wliich might liave employees up to 50. I did not
want to get the record confused. I thought you said 200,000 em-
ployees, but you are talking about 200 to 300 auto-wash establish-
ments who employ up to 50 or 60 men each.
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. Now, what I was trying to get at, and speaking
now as an auto-wash owner, who naturally talks to other aut<3-wash
owners, wliat percentage of the auto- wash shops would you say have
a contract of this kind ?
Mr. BiALKiN. I really don't know. I have heard Mr. Buffalino's
claims, but, on my own, I do not know how many or what percentage
he has.
Senator Mundt. Yovi are not the only nonunion shop ?
Mr. BiALKTN. There are plenty of other nonunion placas.
Senator Mundt. Do you think maybe half of them are nonunion?
Mr. BiALKiN. It could be.
Senator Mundt. You do not know ?
Mr. BiALKiN. I would not know. I have no access to his records.
Now, you asked me what reasons he had for picketing me. In about
August of 1956, an auto wash half a block away, the Fort Wayne
Manor Wash, reopened, and it had been closed for a few months. This
place is operated by Ziggy Snyder, a teamster official, and Larry
Campbell, who is another business agent for the teamsters, and Mr.
Zigg;y' Snyder's wife, Ethel Snyder.
Before this place opened up, on or about July 30, Mr. William Neff
stopped into my place and it happened to be the only time he has
been in my establishment. Mr. William Neff is manager of the Patton
Garage, and it is a good customer of ours. It was on a Monday morn-
ing. Mr. Neff tells me, he says, "Bernie, I am sorry you didn't take
that place across the street," "Well," I say, "I never considered it."
He said, "I had a visit from Larry Welch, over the weekend, and
Larry Welch is the secretary-treasurer of Buffalino's local.
The Chairman. Is that the Welch you have been speaking of as a
business agent ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Lawrence Welch; I don't know if he is a business
agent, but he is an official of local 985.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a business agent.
The Chairman. At least you know he is an official of that local.
Mr. BiALKiN. Of local 985, the right arm of Mr. Buffalino.
The Chairman. Does he have a police record ?
Mr. BiALKiN. I have been told that he has.
The Chairman. Is he the man that was convicted of sodomy?
Mr. BiALKiN. I have been told that that is the case.
The Chairman. I think that we know that.
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. BiALKiN. Mr. Welch had a conversation and Mr. Neff' tells
me this : He said Welch tells him, he says, "My friends are opening
up this auto wash," and he named the name. Fort Wayne Manor Auto
5624 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Wash, "and I want you to take all of your business to tliem when they
open up."
Bill Neff tells him, "I am very much satisfied with the service I am
getting from Bernie, and I don't see any reason why I have to change."
He said Welch says to him, and this is the conversation as Mr. Neff
related it to me, on that Monday morning ; Welch said to him, "Isn't
there anything I can do to change your mind ?" And he said, "I don't
think so." He said, "Well, maybe a picket line will convince you."
So Bill Neff says to me, "Well, we will just wait and see what hap-
pens." As I said, on August 1, this place opened up, and 3 weeks
later on I have a picket line across the street.
Mr. Kennedy. How long were you picketed for ?
Mr. BiALKiN. I was picketed for well over 9 weeks.
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you get an election of your employees ?
Mr. BiALKiN. By all subterfuge, lies, and misrepresentations, the
board was not able for several weeks. They weren't able to get
Bufl'alino to agree to even a meeting at the mediation board. He had
the excuse that he had to be out in Pennsylvania during all of that
time he was out there in front of my line. The very days he claimed
he was in Pennsylvania he was out there in front of my place, picket-
ing. When he ran out of that excuse, he had other important business.
Mr. I^NNEDY. They filed an unfair labor practice against you?
Mr. BiALKiN. On September 27, Chairman Bowers ordered a hear-
ing in which he requested, or asked, both parties whether they would
agree to an election. We agreed to an election, and Mr. Buffalino at
that time refused to give an answer. He was told to give an answer
on October 1, and they never did. Immediately they filed unfair
labor charges against us. We were involved in this long, lengthy
proceeding.
Mr. Kennedy. And the picket line continued during that period?
Mr. BiALKiN. The joicket line continued during that time. In the
meantime, we were in court at various times, and we got no relief.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you put signs up yourself ?
Mr, BiALKiN, Yes, sir : I did.
Mr. Kennedy. What did those signs say ?
Mr. BiALKiN. May I refer to them, please ?
Mr. Kennedy. I understand Mr. Buffalino is suing you now for
what you put on the signs ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes, sir. I asked my attorney what. we could do and
he said, "You will just have to sweat it out until we can get the case
before the judge." Judge Neuenfeldt was away. At the time it was
all beautiful for the part of Mr. Buffalino. I asked him wliat we
could do to advise the public of the true facts, and I erected a sign on
Monday, I believe on or about August 17 of 1956, in which I stated the
bare essentials of my situation.
Mr. Kennedy. A^Hiat did the sign say ?
Mr. Bl\lkin. I can read it here :
Fraud ! Blackmail ! These are pro's, don't represent our employees. No labor
dispute here. Our men are working. There has been no election.
Mrs. BiALKiN. This sign had been approved by our attorneys and
they stated the facts.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any other sign that you put up ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes, I put up other signs.
IMPROPER ACTIVmES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5625
The Chairman. That first picture, can you supply it to the com-
mittee ?
Mr. BialkijST. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 27 for reference.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 27" for ref-
erence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5756.)
Mr. IvENNEDY. What other signs did you put up ?
Mr. BiALKiN. I also painted some signs saying, "Our men work-
ing, no strike." Mr. Buffalino was yelling "Strike" and so were his
men.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have pictures of those signs ?
Mrs. BiALKiN. Yes.
Mr. IvENNEDY. Could we see those? You wrote some signs your-
self?
Mi's. BiALKiN. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And what else happened ?
Mrs. BiALKiN. On or about September 17, I myself put up a sign
over the driveway, "Let freedom ring. Come in and ring a bell." And
I hung a bell up in front of my place. And let me tell you, he went
to all extremes to get that bell off and he got the police down, and he
threatened to get me in court on that particular item, but that bell
stayed up there during all of tlie time of the picketing.
Mr. Kennedy. What other kind of signs did you put up ?
Mrs. BiALKiN. On September 10, we were scheduled before circuit
court and during this time we had initiated adoption proceedings of
a baby. On September 10 we were scheduled before probate court.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you going to get to the other pictures ? This is
the one of the bell. Did you have any other signs ?
The Chairman. This will be made exhibit 28.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 28" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 5757.)
Mr. Kennedy. What other signs did you have?
Mr. BiALKiN. We appeared before probate court that morning in
comiection, as I said with the adoption proceedings, and we were
granted custody of this youngster, this infant.
About 12 o'clock I came back.
Mrs. BiALKiN. That same morning we had to go in for the baby, we
had to go to court to appear before Judge Neuenfeldt for the first
hearing on our case, but we went for the baby first, naturally. Then
she was awarded to us and mj^ husband went to the other court and
I went with the baby.
Mr. BiALKiN. I came back to the place and I handed out cigars to
the men and I was very happy and I told the men we had a baby and
before long word leaked out to the picket line. That afternoon Mr.
Welch accosted me as I went out of the door and he said to me,
"How is the Mississippi Queen and the Jewish bastard?"
He had been referring all of this time to Mrs. Bialkin as the Mis-
sissippi Queen and Mrs. Bialkin had been up to that time down at
the place of business. I just kept on talking and I was seething and
he followed me around with violent and obscene language, and say-
ing, "I don't like a god damn thing you are doing around this place. "^
Excuse the expression.
5626 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairmax. You are on radio, and I believe I would not use
that language. Just say he cursed you and called you vile names and
vulgar names.
Mr. BiALKiN. He said, "I don't like the signs you have around the
place." They had been standing in front of the doors and leering in
there with obscene language and I instructed my man to paste up some
old posters that I had acquired at a nearby film-screen place, and that
morning they had accidentally put a sign up there, "Fireman save my
child."
Evidently Mr. Welch didn't like that sign and he complained about
the signs. And I said, "I will give you a sign that you will like,"
and this was Mr. Welch. For years he had been known around
Detroit and a good many referred to him as the "Gorilla." I bought
a sign from the supply place, and I put it up in its place, over the
door, and the title of the picture was, "Gorilla at Large." It referred
to Mr. Welch and he knows it, and they all know it.
Mrs. BiALKiN. Mr. Bialkin forgot to mention one thing. When I
was down at the place, that door would be opened in the sunnnertime
and Mr. Buffalino and Mr. Welch would stand in front of that door,
and I would always be in view of that door and they would say
things to me or make motions to me.
As a matter of fact, we have a record at one time that I had to
call the police because Mr. Buffalino was standing with a man and
making motions as they were looking at me. And the police have a
record of that. It was a form of intimidation and it bothered me.
So at that time we decided we would cover up the glass door and
keep it closed so they wouldn't annoy me.
JNIr. BiALKiisr. And they annoyed customers inside.
Mrs. Bialkin. Mr. Buffalino would stand outside and shout things
into the place.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Buffalino has filed a libel suit against you and
your wife ?
Mr. Bialkin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. For how much ?
Mr. Bialkin. On August 29 he filed a libel suit, he and the union,
for some $100,000 against the wife and myself and it was subsequently
reduced. "V^Hien the courts ruled the union was not a party to this
particular suit, it was dropped to $50,000 between Buffalino and myself
and within a week afterward his reputation shot up and he raised it
to $100,000.
In April, aroimd Eastertime, a week after he lost an appeal in the
Supreme Court, he filed another $100,000 suit against me in the name
of the union on similar grounds. I have the libel suits here if the
committee wants them. I will be glad to read it or furnish it.
The Chairman. I do not think we need the details of it. He sued
you for $100,000?
Mr. Bialkin. These are all means of harassment and intimidation.
Mr. Kennedy. You are being sued at the present time for these signs
that you put up ?
Mr. Bialkin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And particularly the one with the gorilla ?
Mr. Bialkin. Mr. Bufl'alino mentions that as one of his grounds for
loss to his reputation, and damages and so forth.
IMPROPER ACTI\'rTIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5627
Mrs. BiALKix. It is mainly the fraud and blackmail sign and there
are now two suits.
Mr, BiALKiN. Three suits.
Mrs. BiALKix. The total is $200,000.
Mr. Kennedy. You, of course, have to pay your attorneys to defend
it.
Mrs. BiALKiN. There was another suit. They are like confetti that
Mr. Fitzgerald referred to.
Mr. Kennedy. And the pickets were ultimately called off, were they,
after 9 weeks ?
Mr. BiALKiN. After lengthy hearings before the Mediation Board,
the Mediation Board handed down a ruling in which it states the
findings of facts, that the union refused to give its consent to an
election.
They ordered this election. On the strength of this Mediation
Board finding, we were finally able to get, or Judge Monahan finally
granted a temporary injunction.
On or about October 26, the picketing was removed to permit this
election to be held on October 29, of 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. Was the election held ?
Mr. BiALKiN. The election was held.
Mr. Kennedy. What were the results of the election ?
Mr. BiALKiN. We did not find out the results of this election until
February 28, 1957.
The Chairman. And it was held in October ?
Mr. BiALKiN. It was held on October 29, 1956. The union knew
they had lost the election.
The Chairman. It was 4 months before you were notified of the
results of the election ?
Mrs. BiALKiN. There were contested ballots and delays on the part
of the union, of one kind or another and when the findings were
finally sent down, which ballots would be allowed, the union did not
consent to the opening of the ballots until we went into court and the
court sent them back.
Incidentally, the Mediation Board found us not guilty of any illegal
labor practices.
Mr. Kennedy. What were the results of the election ?
Mr. BiALKiN. The results were that it does not validate any strike
action against the employer and they lost the election.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know what the vote was ?
Mr. BiALKiN. They received out of 19 or 17, they received 6 votes.
Mr. Kennedy. And you received 10 ?
Mr. BiALKiN. We received six and the others were all contested.
Mr. Kennedy. The others were contested ?
Mr. BiALKiN. Yes, sir. They appealed that decision of the Media-
tion Board and it was taken to the Supreme Court. The grounds that
they appealed it on, among them, were that the election was not held
within 20 days of the time that he filed his letter, but he made it im-
possible to hold an election.
The Supreme Court in April of 1957, denied the review and the
findings of the Board are final.
Mr. Kennedy. What has been the whole result of this as far as you
are concerned ? That is, all of these actions for the last 4 or 5 years ?
5628 EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN" THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. BiAiiKiN. Besides the mental anguish, the loss of business, not
only the loss of business during the 9 or 10 weeks, there has been a
permanent loss to some extent because a good many i)eople do not
come back or are afraid to come back; some of them had been con-
tacted during the picketing.
I may illustrate the nature of these contacts. One of my accounts,
besides Neff, and I believe he has testified as to what happened to
him, was the Detroit-Edison. I handled all of their company cars
and a good many of their individual cars. We pick up a large
portion of them, our drivers do.
On Monday morning right after the picketing started, my drivers
went over there and they were told that no cars were to go out. I
went up to see this individual, Mr. Salliken, who is the head of
transportation. He said he had received a call from Mr. Larry
Welch and told him there was a strike at our place — there wasn't any ;
there was a picket line, yes — and there were to be no Edison cars going
through the teamsters picket line. He stopped it.
During that day I presented the facts to him. He referred me to
their legal department. I presented all the facts, whatever docu-
ments there were on the case, and after some deliberation they decided
that this was as illegal a thing as there ever was, and they resumed
sending the cars to us.
I understand that they had any number of contacts after that, try-
ing to get them to change their mind, but I will say this, to the in-
tegrity and honor of those people, they stood their ground.
But it was not the case with a good many others. They were just
scared stiff, they dropped by the wayside.
The Chairman. Have you filed a cross-action against them in these
suits?
Mr. BiALKiN. Sir, I don't have the money, the facilities — it has
pretty near broken me — to get involved. Frankly, the quicker I can
get rid of these guys off my back the better.
The Chairmax. You are already involved.
Mrs. BiALKix. We have an equity suit and we have filed for damages
on that.
Mr. BiALKiN. We have not been heard on that.
The CiTAiRMAX. I am not trying to be your lawyer.
Mr. BiALKix. We have not been heard on that.
The CHAiRiiAJsr. Is there anything further ?
Senator Mundt. I understand that you are not the only car wash
owner that has had unhappy experiences and been brought to the
brink of financial disaster by these union activities. I mentioned, I
believe, that Spick and Span had a picket line.
Mr. BiALKix. It has had a few days.
Mrs. BiALKiN. That was in 1951.
Senator Muxdt. Is that pretty standard operating procedure that
the union uses when they do not sign, or are they trying to make an
example out of you and are you the only case ?
Mr. BiALKix. In connection with the suits, I know that would
happen if tomorrow I signed an agreement with Mr. Buffalino. Those
suits would be dropped. He has done that in other cases.
Senator ]\Iundt. And he has also put picket lines around other
places of business, some of which have capitulated, I suppose, signed
a contract and then no picket line.
EMPROPE'R ACTWITIE3 IN THE LABOR FIELD 5629
Mr. BiALKiN. That is right.
Senator Mundt. I want to congratulate you, sir, on standing by
your convictions and. electing to fight it out. I would like to say that
I applaud the determination of Detroit Edison and Mr, Netf to stick
with you.
jVIr. BiALKiN. May I say that they stopped their business? Mr.
Neff, to keep it clear, because of the threat of the teamsters, stopped
doing business with us from the moment that the picketing started
until the termination of the picketing and then he resumed business
wdth us.
Mrs, BiALKix. Mr. Bialkin forgets to mention that he arranged to
have their cars taken care of elsewhere while we were being picketed.
We were the ones that made the arrangem.ent. We do know that Mr.
Xeff is very much concerned about having come here to testify, just
as we are concerned.
Senator Mundt. I can understand that, but Detroit Edison did
stick with you i
Mr. BiALKix. Yes, sir.
Senator Muxdt. It would seem to me that the good peoj)le of Detroit
who have written this member of the committee in great volume about
unfair labor practices can do a little practicing what they are preach-
ing right at home and give a little business to an outfit like yours
that is willing to fight, even if they have to drive out of the way to
get there. We hear a lot about standing up and fighting unfair
practices with the other fellow's blood.
Xow you are fighting, I would like to say, although I do not have
much success in recommending things to municipalities — I tried in
Portland one time — I would like to say as far as the people hearing
this program are concerned, here is the case.
This is a firing line proposition and I think it would be much
easier to get to the bottom of these unfair labor practices and cor-
rect some of them if the folks of Detroit would support a man who is
fighting their battle and America's battle against this type of thing.
And a better way to support it is to do business with the fellow
whose back is to the wall as yours is than simply to send letters with
3-cent stamps on them to members of the committee saying, "Come in
iind help us."
I salute you for your fight and your wife's courage and realize
it is pretty tough. I hope you emerge successful because I believe
that in America eventually right prevails.
Mrs. BiALKix. Sir, during the picketing we could not get people
to come in for nothing. We were giving free car washes just to keep
our men going. People would not pass that picket line for nothing.
Senator Muxdt. I would like to say this, too, because in many
places where I am, and in many letters that I get, I find that thei-e is
great concern, which I share, about the so-called third party in these
public disputes, and that is the public.
Here is a chance for John Q. Public himself to do something.
They are going to have to show a little courage, enough courage to
drive through the picket line in an unfair labor practice like this if
the}' expect people to stand up against this kind of racket.
So I say again, I salute you for making this fight, I hope this
committee is going to be able to suggest legislation wliich is going
5630 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
to make it easier for people like you to protect themselves against
this kind of outrageous coercion. The public can help a lot by eat-
ing some raisins and getting some iron in its system and helping peo-
ple like you who stand for American principles.
Mr. BiALKix. During the course of the picketing I recall on Sep-
tember 14, Mr. Welch told me if he catches me in an alley he would
put a slug in my back.
The Chairmax. Have you had any threats regarding your testi-
mony here ?
Mr. BiALKix. No.
Mrs. Bl\lkix'. May we have the protection of this committee?
The Chairmax. You will have all the protection the committee
can give you and you will remain under subpena until such time as
the committee may desire to have any further testimony from you.
In the meantime, any threat or any coercion or attempt to intimi-
date you with respect to your testimony before this committee in
any way, communicate witli the committee and let us have that
information.
We will give you all the protection we can and insist upon other
agencies of the Government doing likewise.
Mrs. BiALKiN. Thank you.
Mr. BiALKix. I thank you.
Mr. Kennedy. How much do you pay your car washers?
Mr. BiALKiN. We have a minimum of $3.50 a day. That is a
minimum whether the men do a single car. Then we pay 45 cents
which the men divide amongst themselves.
Mr. Kennedy. You pay 45 cents '(
Mr. BiALKix. Forty-five cents per car.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir; the union place we had represented paid
40 cents. You guarantee $3.50 ?
Mr. BiALKiN. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. No matter how many cars they wash ?
Mr. Bialkin. That is right.
The Chairman. That is $3.50 per day ?
Mr. BiALKix'. That is the minimum.
The Chairmax. In other words, they have a guaranty of that?
Mr. Bialkin. Yes, sir.
The Chairmax. If business comes, then they make more ?
Mr. Bialkin. That is right.
Mrs. Bialkin. We also pay bonuses. We try to compensate those
men who do a little better job. We pay regular bonuses right down
the line and we have always done that.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Buffalino.
The Chairmax'. Will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. BuFFALix'o. I do, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5631
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. BUFFALINO, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, GEORGE S. FITZGERALD
The C'iiAiKMAX. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. BuFFALiNo. My name is William Eugene Buffalino. I am the
president of Teamsters Local 985 in Detroit. I am an attorney by
profession.
The CiiAiEMAN. Did you give your residence ? I believe you over-
looked that.
Mr. Buffalino. My residence is 12353 Wilshire, Detroit, Mich.,
and 47 East Railroad Street, in Pittston, Pa.
The Chairman. Let the record show that Mr. George S. Fitzgerald
represents the witness ; is that correct ?
Mr. Buffalino. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Where do you spend most of your thne, Mr.
Buffalino ?
Mr. Buffalino. Before gettmg into that, I would like to point out
to you, Mr. Kennedy, and I want to call to your attention that our
local union, under my signature, recently Avrote you a letter on the
24th day of September 1957.
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct. I forgot about it.
The Chairman. Let the Chair read it. I do not know what I am
asked to do here. You read it, and I will listen and follow. Do
you have a copy of it ?
Mr. Buffalino. Yes, I have. The letter is dated September 24,
1957, to the Congress of the LTnited States of America and the Senate
Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management
Field:
Local No. 985. affiliated with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters,
Chauffeurs, Warehousemen and Helpers of America was served with a subpena
on the (Jth day of August, 1957.
The said subpena was apparently ordered by your committee and was issued
on the 1st day of August, 19."57, by Senator .John McClellan, chairman.
It is our understanding that your committee is formed pursuant to Senate
Resolution 74, 85th Congress, 1st session. It is our further understanding that
your committee has adopted certain rules of procedure to guide its members and
witnesses in its oi)eration.
Since local 985 is entirely a service union comprised of members dealing
solely in rendering services at automatic car-wash establishments and repair-
ing and servicing automatic coin-operated equipment, it does not appear that
your committee has jurisdiction to prosecute any inquiry because of a lack of
legislative purpose.
The Chairman. That part of the request will be rejected. It is
overruled. The committee has jurisdiction under the provision of the
resolution establishing it in all areas of management-labor relations.
Proceed.
Mr. Buffalino. I continue to read :
Without waiving any of our rights, constitutional or otherwise, and continuing
to object as to jurisdiction, validity of subpena in all respects, including form,
issuance, and in effect, in the event the observations and objections heretofore
stated are not sustained by your committee, the following is requested :
The Chahiman. The foregoing is overruled and is not sustained.
You ma}' proceed.
5632 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. BuFFALiisro (reading) :
(A) That no television or photographic cameras be permitted to operate dur-
ing the course of inquiry since they would tend to distract the witness and,
therefore, affect the acciiracy of the answers.
Experience reveals that there are few people with sufficient stage presence to
withstand the impacts of compounded questions, cloaked with the trappings of
television and that witnesses with nothing to conceal appear to be adrift from
the truth.
The Chairman. Let the Chair ask you at this point, is it your pur-
pose to take the fifth amendment ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. No, it is not.
The Chairman. Or plead you do not remember ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. No, it is not.
The Chairman. Then we will give consideration to that request.
You may proceed.
Mr. BuFFALiNO (reading) :
(B) That local 985 and/or its president, William Buffalino, be furnished with
a list of subjects or topics to be covered by your committee.
(C) That local No. 985 and /or its president, William Buffalino, be furnished
with a list of the proposed questions to be propounded under each of the subjects
or topics referred to in paragraph (B).
The Chairman. Both requests in (B) and (C) are denied.
Senator Mundt. I might say that one very good reason for denying
the request is that, no man in the world could tell what questions we
might ask after hearing your testimony or hearing your answers to the
preceding question. That would be impossible.
The Chairman. There is no such procedure established anyway.
Mr. Buffalino. In my particular case, I understand there are bound
volumes in congressional committees as to questions and answers, in
question and answer form, of testimony that I have heretofore given
in other forums.
Senator Mundt. That might be, but the fertile imagination of the
present committee might still cook up a lot of other questions that
are not in the bound volumes.
Mr. Buffalino. What I was referring to is those in their possession
to permit me to be able to refresh my recollection.
Senator Mundt. We have no objection to your reading the bound
volumes if you want to know what the other questions were.
Mr. Buffalino. That is what I am asking for here.
The Chairman. You want to read what? I do not understand.
You want to read the transcript of these hearings ?
Mr. Buffalino. No. There are former hearings, I believe, in the
Kefauver investigation. There was a bound volume of information
and testimony given prior to that with reference to grand- jury testi-
mony, from what I understand, in 1946, that is in the possession of
this committee.
The Chairman. This committee has no obligation to furnish you
transcripts of testimony in other places.
Proceed.
Mr. Buffalino. That would be based on the Jencks case. I think
that would be analogous to the decision rendered in the Jencks case.
The Chairman. O.K.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5633
Mr. BuFFALiNO (reading) :
In view of the long period of time that will apparently be covered by this
investigation, and in further view of the extensive scope of the current investiga-
tion, and since the witness can only testify as to his present knowledge of the
matters of interrogation, and since the officers of local 985 do not profess to have
all of the answers at their immediate command, and since they are desirous of
answering promptly, honestly, completely, and with definite accuracy, it is re-
quested that any officer of local No. 985 who is required to testify be furnished
with a complete transcript of his testimony and be permitted to correct, amend,
delete, and/or alter any statement with the assistance of his attorney, after
which time he shall take the oath to such statement as corrected, amended,
and/or altered for submission to the committee as his duly sv/orn statement.
It is further requested that local No. 985 through its president, William E.
Buffalino, be permitted to cover such subjects or to answer or to explain any
derogatory inferences or improper construction which might be given to a par-
ticular set of facts as a failure to cover a certain topic or a partial coverage of a
particular subject, which subject or topic relates to local No. 985 or any of its
officers or members.
It is further requested that the witness be permitted to read this statement
orally into the record immediately prior to the giving of oral testimony.
Respectfully submitted.
Tlie Chairman. Your last request has already been granted. You
just concluded reading the statement. The other request will be
overruled.
Proceed. You will be treated like all other witnesses.
Senator Mundt. I do not believe you are going to need the services
of Mr. Fitzgerald. You have thought of waverings and requests far
beyond his most optimistic suggestions.
Mr. Buffalino. Mr. Senator, I rely on Mr. Fitzgerald on just about
every tiling I do.
Senator Mundt. You have far exceeded his requests.
Mr. Kennedy. You kept Mr. Fitzgerald advised
The Chairman. I have a rather high regard for Mr. Fitzgerald and
I doubt if he wants to be associated with all you do. I seriously doubt
that. But he is your counsel and he has a right to advise you.
Mr. Buffalino. I Avant to place one objection, that it appears to
me that you are coming to a conclusion before you are hearing my side
of the story,
The Chairman. All right, proceed. Let us get along with it. I am
trying to get your side as fast as I can.
jMr. Buffalino. We Avill get to it. I want to do one thing, Mr.
Chairman. Before I get into the testimony proper, I would like to
malve a statement with the permission of the Chair, which is actually
a statement in the form of an objection as well as a report.
May I have your permission to make this statement '^
The Chairman. You may make a brief statement.
Mr. Buffalino. I object to any member of this committee employ-
ing Gestapo tactics by unlawfully seeking to obtain information from
our representatives at gunpoint. On Tuesday night, the 24th day
of September, Mr. Arthur Kaplan entered into the home of Mr.
Newman, a representative, a colored business representing of local
985, and after verbally abusing Mr. Newman and taking the naine of
our Lord in vain and insisting that he be permitted to use the phone,
Mr. Kaplan not only refused to leave, but attempted to go into another
room, as I am informed, of the house where Mr. Newman tried to stop
him and Mr. Kaplan drew a gun.
80.^30 — 57 — pt. 14 23
5634 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Have you submitted a copy of that statement to
this committee ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. No. This just happened recently.
The Chairman. You have had 24 hours in which to submit it under
the rules of the committee. The Chair has been very lenient in these
matters, particularly with respect to written statements.
I am not going to permit witnesses to use that witness chair for a
forum to make accusations without this committee having knowledge
of it. If you want to be fair with this committee you will submit
that statement to it under the rules of the committee.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I believe at the time, Mr. Kaplan mentioned he
was going to report it to the committee.
The Chairman. I am not saying what Mr. Kaplan did or did not do
at this time. This committee will not tolerate any improper conduct
on the part of one of its employees. But tliat should be reported to
the committee to give the committee an opportunity to have some
information about it in advance.
You are trying to seize upon this opportunity to take that witness
chair there as a forum to make these accusations. This is the first
time the committee has ever heard them. You will submit your state-
ment to the committee.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I want to object at this time to this committee
sitting
The Chairman. You heard what the Chair said. You submit that
statement to the committee.
Mr. BuFFxVLiNO. This is on another subject.
The Chairman. Any statement you have from now on you will
submit it to the committee under the rules first.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Sir ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. You will submit it to tlie committee.
The Chairman. You will submit your statement to the committee
under the rules.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I will do that.
The Chairman. Yes, you will. I want it now. I want the state-
ment you were reading submitted to the committee.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Some of it I read and there are other notes I was
intending to read.
The Chairman. That is the purpose of the rule, so that the commit-
tee can be acquainted with what you intend to do. I try to be lenient
about that rule.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Do you want my other notes in addition ?
The Cpiairman. I want anything you intend to read before this
committee. I do not care about your personal notes. If you have
some personal notes you may keep them for yourself, but any state-
ment you intend to read before this committee will be submitted to
the committee.
Mr. Kennedy. Just as background, does Mr. Newman work for you ?
He is a business agent ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Does he have a police record ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. That I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. He was convicted for larceny ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know.
IMPROPER ACTIVrriES EST THE LABOR FIELD 5635
Mr. Kennedy. I believe that is correct. This is Mr. Newman
yon were talking about ; is that right ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know about his police record.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kaplan met him in a hiring hall ; did he not ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. In his home.
Mr. Kennedy. In a hiring hall.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. In his home, which is also a hiring hall.
Mr. Kennedy. I think you should give the full story on this
situation.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. That is what I tried to do.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you said it was his home.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. That is his home.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it the hiring hall ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. A front office he has in his home.
The Chairman. The Chair wishes to make this statement :
The Chair is somewhat at fault for not actually enforcing the rules
of the committee. I thought when a witness asked if he could make a
statement he wanted to make an oral statement. But, under the rules
of the committee, anyone wishes to read a statement or part of his
testimony to the committee is required to submit that statement 24
hours in advance and the committee can make a determination whether
the statement is proper, whether it is relevant. It is a necessary rule.
We have to guard against permitting witnesses just to use the wit-
ness chair in that manner as a forum for propaganda, political philos-
ophy, and other things that the committee mny not be interested in.
This witness has made a charge against a member of this committee's
staff.
I have never had any information regarding this charge before this
moment. The committee, therefore, will look into the matter and in-
quire into it, and if the committee finds that there is anything to sus-
tain this charge, it will take appropriate action.
The committee will not condone improper activities on the part of
any of its employees. I have had a complaint or two before, and
when we have pursued them, we found there was nothing to it.
This one is a very serious charge, if true. At the moment I have
every confidence in Mr. Kaplan, is that his name, but you cannot
prevent these charges from being made.
However, the committee will pursue them and inquire into them
and take appropriate action if it finds there is any justification for
the charges made.
Now, we are going to proceed with taking this witness' testimony.
Senator Mundt ?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, for the information of the press,
so that they won't be under the illusion that Mr. Buffalino was about
to make a lot of additional charges, may I say, and I think he will
concur with this, that the point he read was the sole charge that was
made against JNIr. Kaplan, and the remainder of the statement whicli
was unread simply expressed Mr. Bufl'alino's hope that the committee
did not condone such action, if in fact there was such action, and that
we would make an investigation to determine the facts. That is
correct, is it not ?
Mr. Buffalino. That is correct. I was hopeful that I would have
been permitted to read the latter part of that in fairness to everybody,
myself, the committee, and everybody concerned.
5336 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. The chairman stopped you at that j)oint because
nobody could tell where you were going from there.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. That is right.
Senator Mundt. The record should be clear that the short part that
was not read simply expressed the hope that the committee would
check into it, wliich of course the committee will do, because as the
chairman said, we simply want to make sure that the facts arc facts.
We would not condone such activities if indeed they took place under
the circumstances you mentioned.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. That I had in the remainder of the statement that
I was not permitted to read.
The Chairman. The Chair made his order, or statement, without
reading the remainder of the statement. Whatever the statement
may contain had no influence on the Chair's decision or announcement.
Senator Mundt. I completely suppoi-t the Chair in stopping you
^'here he did, but I did not want to get the impression out among the
press that had you continued it there might be innumerable other
charges involving other members of the stall'. You had com])Ieted
your charge at the time you were stopped, and you were simply ex-
pressing the hope that we would make a careful investigation of the
facts.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I believe the remainder of that statement w;vs in
justification of everyone's position that we want to do the right tiling
by everybody concerned.
Senator Mundt. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. The charge has been made and I would like to g.et
the record clear, as Mr. Buffalino failed to say anyplace in the state-
ment — in fact, he is talking al)out Mr. Newman, tliat his Iiome is his
castle — the picture that has been portrayed by Mr. Buffalino, that
Mr. Kaplan, all 1^0 pounds of him, stormed into Mr. Newman's home.
He was invited into the hiring hall of the union and sat there and
started to ask Mr. Newman some questions. Mr. Newman, vrho wa-'
convicted of larceny, started pushing Mr. Kaplan aroimd. Mr.
Kaplan had been threatened before, we did not expect to go into this,
and he has a license to carry a gun. He brought out his gun and lie
said, ''You stop kicking me around." Mr. Newman ceased and de-
sisted from pushing Mr. Kaplan around.
Mr. Kaplan left slwrtly afterwards, after he was joined by anotlier
investigator, Mr. Kelly. He called me on the telephone, and we ques-
tioned at that time whether we should prefer charges against Mr.
Newman, and we decided to let the whole incident droD. Tho'" is ^'v^
way it has been left. It is very fortunate, I believe, for Mr. Kaplan
that he was lucky enough to be carrying a gim and have a permit to
carry a gun during the time of this incident. Those are the true and
correct facts.
Mr. Buffalino's statement that Mr. Kaplan stormed into Mr.
Newman's home is a complete faln-ication.
The Chairman. All right. We want to proceed with this testi-
mony. The Chair and this committee is going to look into tl-.e mat- er
thoroughly. The committee is not going to condone any impro]>er
activity on the part of any member of its staif. This charge m:iy
'urn out to be like some others we have heard. We have got to bear
in mind that the class of people this committee is dealing with as
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5637
evidenced and demonstrated by their conduct before this committee
in some instances at least are not the class of people that is easily safe
to be around when you are trying to investigate them and interrogate
into some of their crooked affairs.
This committee is not going to be bluffed nor intimidated. We are
going to investigate you and everyone else where it comes to our
attention that improper activities are being practiced and where we
can possibly have the time and the facilities to do it. Let us proceed
with the interrogation.
Senator Mundt. I would like to suggest to Mr. Buffalino also on the
basis of his unfortunate experience in reading this statement that you
should testify to us on the basis of your personal knowledge and not
on hearsay. At best what you have reported is not anything that you
observed or anything tliat you saw, but something that was reported
to you by a Mr. Newman. That is correct, is it not? You have no
personal knowledge of whether Mr. Kaplan carried a gun or not?
Mr. Buffalino. I was a late witness. I was there shortly after it
happened.
Senator Mundt. You were not there at the time it happened,
Mr. Buffalino. I talked to Mr. Kaplan.
Senator Mundt. It was hearsay, a report from Mr. Kaplan, talking
to you not under oath, but reporting to you something that you re-
ported to us ; is that right ?
Mr. Buffalino. That is right, sir.
The C^HAiRMAN. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, in connection with your statement
about the type of people involved in this investigation, and particu-
larly the investigation that is being conducted of local 985, and Mr.
Butfalino, I would like to ask you, Mr, Buffalino, when you first came
into the jukebox business,
Mr, Buffalino, That was in the early part of 1946.
Mr, Kennedy, Could you tell us in what connection you came into
the jukebox business?
Mr, Bi^TFALiNo, Yes.
Mr, Kennedy. With whom ?
Mr. Buffalino. At the time I incorporated the Bilvin Distributing
Co.
Mr. Kennedy. AVho was that made up of ?
Mr, Buffalino, The Bilvin Distributing Co, was a corporation, in-
corporated by Sam Tocco, John Priziola, and myself, I believe. To
the best of my recollection those are the names.
Mr. Kennedy. Let us go through Sam Tocco first. Wlio is Sam
Tocco ?
Mr. Buffalino. Sam Tocco is a very good friend of mine in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. Is he the son of Bill Tocco ?
Ml-. Buffalino. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Is he related to Bill Tocco ?
Mr. Buffalino, There is some type of relationship. How close,
I don't know. I think he married Mr. Tocco's daughter.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Tocco invest any money in this Bilvin
operation ?
Mr. Buffalino. Sam Tocco ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
5638 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD
Mr, BuFFALiNo. I believe he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Sam Tocco did. Did William Tocco ?
Mr. BuTEALiNO. I doubt it very much. I have no knowledge of it.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wliere did Sam get the money that he invested?
Mr. BuiFALiNO. You would have to ask him.
Mr. Kennedy. How old was Sam at the time ?
Mr. BuTFALiNO. About your age.
Mr. Kennedy. How old were you at the time?
Mr. BuFFALiNo. About 26, about 27.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did he invest ?
Mr. BuFFALiNo. I have no recollection of that figure.
Mr. I^JSNNEDY. Wasn't it about $25,000 ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. That would be a fair estimate. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Vfliere did he get the $25,000 ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. That, I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't it, in fact, come from William Tocco?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. That, I don't know.
Mr. Ivennedy. Wasn't William Tocco arrested for armed robbery
in 1920, arrested for armed robbeiy in 1923, arrested for armed rob-
bery in 1924, prohibition
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I object.
Mr. Kennedy. Investigation of murder, 1935.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I want to state an objection and point of order,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy. You are going to
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I do want to state an objection. I do not think
that tlie police record of any relatives of Sam Tocco, record of arrests,
is peiti?ient to these issues.
Mr. Kennedy. You tell us where Mr. Tocco got the $25,000, if he
didn't get it from William Tocco.
IVIr. BuFFALiNO. All I can tell you, Mr. Kennedy
Mr. Kennedy. He was 26 years old. Where did he get the $25,000 ?
Mr. Btjffalino. Will you permit me to answer ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. All I can tell you, Mr. Kennedy, is where I got
the money I invested.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did you invest?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know the exact amount, but it was — I don't
know, $20,000 or $30,000. I actually have no independent recollection
of the exact figure.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get $20,000 or $30,000 ?
Mr. BuTFALiNO. I borrowed $15,000 from a bank in Pittston, Pa. ;
$5,000 I had, which I saved up while I was in the Army. I was mak-
ing $21 a month at the time I was in the Army, but I did have ac-
cumulated approximately $5,000 of my own money.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you serve in the Army?
Mr. BuFFALiNo. I served as a trial judge advocate for the general
and special courts. I enlisted in 1942. I was discharged, I believe —
I think I w^ent out on terminal leave on January 18, 1946.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you overseas ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Sir?
Mr. Kennedy. Were you overseas ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Unfortunately, I was not. I followed all the or-
ders that the Government put out.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5639
]Mr. Kennedy. You say you got $15,000 you borrowed from a bank ;
$5,000 you had. TV^iere did you get the other $10,000 from ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know, actually, how much I invested. I
believe I borrowed some money from my uncle at the time. I don't
know.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is your uncle ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Angelo Meli ; my wife's uncle and my uncle.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he have any investment in this ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I wouldn't call it an investment. It might be an
investment by proxy. Call it what you want.
Mr. Kennedy. How much did he put in ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I have no independent recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't he put $46,000 in this operation ?
Mr. Btjffalino. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Angelo Meli, according to our records, put some
$46,000 in this operation. He w^as convicted in 1920 of carrying a
concealed weapon, arrested in 1920 on a murder investigation.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. May I have a point of order here, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Kennedy. 1941, coercion; 1931, murder investigation
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Mr. Btjffalino. I would like to have a point of order. Mr. Ken-
nedy is reading a police record, a record of arrests, a record of a man
who just lost his son last November in a jet airplane in Germany.
He enlisted there. He was doing his duty as a representative of this
Government. So far as I am concerned, Angelo Meli, who is my
wife's uncle and my uncle, has at all times conducted himself as a
gentleman. So far as I am concerned, he has never at any time
attempted to, directly or indirectly, influence me in any way, in any
manner that is contrary to any law, either local. State, or Federal.
The Chairman. All right ; he has never attempted to influence you
in any way contrary to any law.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out, in view
of Mr. Buffalino's statement, that the people that he went into busi-
ness with, which he started in the jukebox business, have a total of
arrests amounting to more than 40. They include about 4 or 5 at-
tempted murders and maybe 6 or 8 armed robberies. I am not inter-
ested in any particular person. You started out with 3 or 4 men,
the most notorious hoodlums in the country. That is all. You were
the front man for them. That is the only reason that I am bringing
this out. That is how you started in business.
The Chairman. That is the element that this committee hopes to
expose and hopes we can enact legislation to take them out of the
labor movement.
Mr. BuFFALiNo. How many arrests ? How many arrests did I have
at that time ?
Mr. Kennedy. I will trace your record. You went into this busi-
ness. You went into the labor movement. You were put in there by
Jimmy Hoffa, who had placed Jimmy James and given the first
charter to Jimmy James and went on to being involved in an attempted
murder, involved in allegedly misappropriating $900,000. You went
in and took over this jukebox local. You were not elected originally.
You have a record. You continued your own jukebox business.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Is this a bill of complaint you are filing against
me?
5640 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. No, I am saying why we are interested and how you
originated in this business. It is a source of great concern and interest
to us.
Mr. BuFFALiNo. I would suggest that you have me testify instead
of you testifying and you ask me the questions.
The Chairman. You filed a written request here to be given ques-
tions and advise what you are going to be interrogated about. We are
giving you some of the information now that you are going to be
interrogated about.
Mr. Kennedy. You are interested in why I was bringing out about
Angelo Meli's, your uncle's, police record. He invested some $46,000.
As I was going here, November 9, 11)!>1, allegedly receiving stolen
property; 1922, armed robbery; 1922, nuu'der; 1924, extortion; 1927,
kidnaping; 1927, prohibition; 1944, armed robbery; and 1951 for vio-
lating the gambling statute. There is now action being taken to de-
naturalize Mr. Angelo Meli. That is Mr. Tocco and Mr. Angelo Meli.
Who else was in this business with you?
Mr. BuFPALiNo. Those were the only three that I can recall.
Mr. Kennedy. How about Mr. Priziola ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I mentioned his name. We were the only three.
It w^as Tocco, Priziola, and Bill Buffalino.
Mr. Kennedy. What Avas Mr. Priziola's background ?
Mr. BuFFALJNo. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. He had been arrested for carrying a concealed
weapon, had he not, a number of different times?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. May I clarify something? All of these arrests, is
this actually a conviction by arrest?
Mr. Kennedy. No; they have been arrested. Some of them have
been convicted.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. How about my uncle? How many convictions
does he have ?
Mr. Kennedy. Do you want me to go through ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Yes; on his convictions.
Mr. Kennedy. How many does he have ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Actually, what would happen in the early twenties,
if anything would happen downtown they would pick up anybody
with an Italian name. They would haul them to prison and the last
thing they would do in order to charge them, what was the last thing
that happened, if it was kidnaping, they have kidnaping.
Mr. Kennedy. How many Italians in the United States do you
think have been arrested for 2 murders or 2 or 3 armed robberies ?
Mr. BuFFAi.iNO. I have no statistics on that. But I do say that even
during the Kefauver investigation he had an arrest on his record
because they wanted to serve him a subpena. They had to haul him
into jail.
Mr. Kennedy. So you started out witli these oentlemen in the juke-
box business ; is that right ? How" about DeLiberto ? Did you men-
tion him ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I didn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he in this business ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know what you are talking about.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. DeLiberto ?
IMPROPER ACTIVrTIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5641
Mr, BuFFALiNO. I don't know. I may know him. From what you
are trying to say or how you pronounce it, I don't recognize the person.
Mr. Kennedy. D-e-L-i-b-e-r-t-o.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I have a vague recollection of the name, but I can't
place it.
Mr. Kennedy. Would he be interested in this company ?
Mr. BuFFALiNo. I don't recall whether he was or not. I actually
don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. What was your position in the company ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I was the president.
Mr. Kennedy. You must know who was interested in the company.
Mr. BuFFALiNo. All I recall is that it was Sam Tocco, Mr. Priziola,
and myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember this other gentleman ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't recall that at this time. Do you have some-
thing
Mr. Kennedy. How about Nick Ditta ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know. He might have been in the jukebox
business.
Mr. Kennedy. Don't you know he was in that company, too ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. He may have been. I dont' know. I don't recall
that. But if he was, and if you have some information to refresh my
recollection, I would be glad to testify to it.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Nick Ditta ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. Oh, as a result of going to weddings, probably, and
seeing him and meeting him there.
Mr. Ken> edy. You say you don't know if he was in business with
you or not ?
Mr. Bu.FFALiNo. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you ever borrowed any money from him ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. No, sir ; I don't believe I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the corporation ever borrow any money from
him?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't believe they did.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember that ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't recall whether they did. If you have any
figures or information, I certainly would try to expedite matters here
and testify to it if you give me something to refresh my recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Does it refresh your recollection that Mr. Ditta and
DeLiberto contributed $30,000 to this company ?
Mr. BuFFALiNo. That may have been before — that might have been
before the incorporation, and I believe the incorporation was tow^ard
the center of the month, toward the middle of the month of February,
and I believe that there was at that time, prior to a charter being
granted by the State of Michigan to operate as a corporation — I
believe there might have been some type of a partnership arrange-
ment. I don't recall that.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Mr. DeLiberto had a police record?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. No ; I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know anything about that?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know anything about his police record.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know^ he w^as also known as Rocco, Steve
Rocco ?
r
5642 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. BurrALiNO. I don't know. I was married in 1945. I was
shortly in Detroit and have not seen him probably in 10 or 11 years.
Mr. Kennedy. This would take too long to read, really. It is three
pages.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I am not interested in his record, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. I am trying to learn about the people that you went
into business with originally. Wliat were you doing in this business ?
What services were you performing ?
Mr. BuTFALiNO. I was the president.
Mr. Kennedy. Operating president ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. And an employee of Bilvin Distributing Co.
Mr. Kennedy. What experience had you had that this group of
gentlemen selected you as president ?
Mr. BuFFALiNo. The best experience is the fact that I was a lawyer.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the reason ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I incorporated the corporation. I believe it was
I that incorporated it at the time or took an active part in the cor-
poration of that.
Mr. Kennedy. And they took you ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I was a nephew of Angelo Meli. There is nothing
wrong with me going into business. After all, I was 27 years old,
very freshly out of the Army. I think I got out on terminal leave
on the 18th day of January 1946, and it was incorporated, I believe,
on the 12th of February 1946. I had just come out. I, as any other
veteran, felt I was entitled to be able to orient myself and find my
place in civilian life.
Mr. Kennedy. These 4 or 5 men, as I say, who together have police
arrests amounting to more than 40, went and selected William Buf-
falino, a 27-year-old attorney, to head the company up. I was just
wondering what your background or experience was that brought
Angelo Meli, Priziola, Ditta, and these other gentlemen all to you to
have you set this company up.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. There was no selection. There was no selection by
those men of me. So far as I was concerned, I judged people on their
character. Insofar as I am concerned, I judge people by what I know
them to be.
Senator Mundt. If they didn't select you, did you select yourself
as president ? If you were president, somebody had to bring it about.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. If somebody had to be president, it might just as
well be me.
Senator Mundt. Did you select yourself as president when you
wrote up the articles of incorporation ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know how that happened.
Senator Mundt. You don't know how you got to be president ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I must have been elected.
Senator Mundt. It was a fortunate accident.
Mr. BuFFALiNO. It was a fortunate accident.
Senator Mundt. You didn't have the majority of the stock, did
you ? You were not the majority stockholder ?
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I don't know how that stock was divided. I don't
recall how it was divided.
Senator Mundt. You must recall if you had the majority of the
stock in a company you incorporated.
mPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THE' LABOR FIELD 5643
Mr. BuFFALiNO. I must have had a substantial amount.
Mr. I\JENNEDY. Senator Mundt, out of the $146,000 invested in the
company, only $5,000 was Mr. Bufl'alino's money. The rest was bor-
rowed or invested by these men.
Mr. BuTFALiNO. Is there anything wrong with me going to a bank
and borrowing it ?
Senator Mtjndt. Obviously you had to be elected by somebody else,
by votes other than your own, in a $146,000 corporation.
Mr. BuTTALiNO. I can tell you that our company was thoroughly
investigated at the time.
Senator Mundt. I am not questioning that. I am asking you how
you got to be president. I was curious when you said you were not
selected by the stockholders. I think you would have to be since
you don't have the majority of the stock.
Mr. BuFFALiNo. That is not what Mr. Kennedy said. The way I
miderstood it, it was not the charge that I was selected by the stock-
holders. I didn't object to that. I objected to the fact that all of
these other men appointed me.
Senator Mundt. Then you will admit that you were selected by the
stockholders of the company.
Mr. BuTFALiNO. There is no question in my mind that I was
selected by the stockholders of that corporation.
Senator Mundt. We will find out who the stockholders were and
put that in the record.
The Chairman. The Chair regretfully announces that due to cir-
cumstances beyond our control, it has become necessary for us to
recess the hearings until in the morning at 9 o'clock. The witness will
return tomorrow morning at that time.
The committee is in recess.
(Members of the select committee present at time of adjournment:
The chairman and Senator Mundt.)
(Whereupon, at 12 : 30 p. m. the select committee recessed, to recon-
vene at 9 a. m., Saturday, September 28, 1957.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1957
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN THE Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D. C .
The select committee met at 9 a.m., pursuant to Senate Kesolution
74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room. Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Sen-
ator Carl T. Curtis, Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Carmine S. Bel-
lino, accounting consultant ; Ruth Young "Watt, chief clerk.
(Members of the committee present at convening of the session:
Senators McClellan and Curtis.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, this morning the first matter we are
going to go into is the Sun Valley project, which we consider of some
importance. Mr. Hotfa had testified that he had received a $25,000
loan in cash from Henry Lower, who he said operated Sun Valley.
He also testified tliat he had gone to the Commonwealth Bank and
had gone on a note for Henry Lower. The Commonw^ealth Bank has
large sums of teamster money at their bank and Jimmy Hoffa said
he went to the bank and arranged for Henry Lower to get 2 loans, 1 of
$50,000 and a second loan of $25,000, a total of $75,000. Then he went
on to say that Mr. Lower loaned him $25,000 in cash. So we have
been looking into the project of Sun Valley, and we had expected to
have Henry Lower here to testify.
We considered Henry Lower one of the most important witnesses
that could testify during this week. He unfortunately is ill, and we
had a Government doctor to examine him. The Government doctor
who examined him said originally that he thought he could travel,
but has changed and said it would be a week before he could come.
We will have to proceed today without Henry Lower. But I think
we could put some of the facts and figures into the record anyway.
So the first witness on the matter w^ould be Mr. Joseph Kritcli.
The Chairman. Mr. Kritch, come around, please, sir.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kritch. I do.
5645
56-46 IJ^IPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH KRITCH
The Chairmax. Be seated. Mr. Kritch, state your name, your place
of residence, and your business or occupation.
iSIr. Kritch. ]\iy name is Joe Kritch. I live at 370 Eayson Avenue,
in Xorthville, Mich. I am now sales manager of a used car-new car
business on Plymouth Road in Livonia, Victory ]SIotor Sales.
The Chairmax. Mr. Kritch, do you have an attorney ^
]Mr. Kritch. Do I have an attorney i
The Chairmax. Yes. Under the rales of the committee you have
a right to have counsel present to advise you during the course of your
testimony if you desire. Do you waive counsel?
Mr. Kritch. Well, I don't have an attorney. Senator. I probably
needed one all last year, but I am here on my own.
The Chairmax. Thank you very much. Proceed.
Mr. Kexxedy. Mr. Kritch, would you tell the committee a little of
your background, please?
Mr. IvRiTCH. I started out as a youngster back in Detroit, born
and raised in Detroit, and went out to school at Pershing High School,
and at the age of 17 I went to work at the Chrysler Corp. where my
father worked.
Being at Chrysler Corp., being able to play baseball, I received the
job I had and worked there for about a year and a half. When the
big strike came along, the sitdown strike in 1937, I in turn left in
March 15 and went to Terre Haute, Ind., and tried out with the St.
Tjouis T>v()wiis baseball srhool. The way I improved and looked, the}'
gave me a job in the minor league organization.
In 1937 I started to play ball at Findlay, Ohio, and from there on
I went on through to about four clubs in the organization. I was
later made a scout for the St. Louis Browns.
My life had been sports until I worked part time in the automobile
business, like in 1919 and 1950 and 1951. I came back to Detroit and
played baseball, and in 1951, 1952, and 1953 I played with the team-
sters '24:7 team 2 years. We won the championship.
In 1951 and 1955 I was assistant sales manager at Holtzbaugh Motor
Sales, where I had then bumped into, or I had met, Mr. Henry Lower,
who was organizer and president of the salesmen's union which was
under the teamstei^.
Mr. Kex'xtdt. What local number was that ?
Mr. IvRiTCH. I will have to look at the card. It was International
Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen, and Helpers,
AFI.^ — that is what the card said.
Mr. Kexxedy. That is local 376, I believe.
Mr. Kritch. Yes. Here is the other card that says 376.
Mr. IvEXx^EDY. Mr. Lower was an organizer for local 376 at the
time?
Mr. Kritch. Yes, sir.
Mr. IvExxEDY. And you met him while you were working for this
automobile company, is that right ?
Mr. Kritch. That is right.
Mr. IvEXXEDY. He spoke to you about joining the union ?
:Mr. Kritch. Yes, sir. In 'fact, I attended one of their meetings
and it looked like a very good thing, to organize salesmen. I even
IMPROPE'R ACTIVITIES IN THEi LABOR FIELD 5647
went out as a good union man and organized and signed 25 or more
salesmen myseff, and turned over their initiation dues to Mr. Lower.
Mr. Kennedy. So you joined the union, is that right? Your group
joined the union ?
Mr. Kritch. Yes, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Subsequently, did Mr. Lower speak to you about
another project in which he was interested ?
Mr. Kritch. At that time — that was in 1944
Mr. Kennedy. 1954.
Mr. Kritch. 1954, 1 mean. In 1954 he didn't talk to me about any-
thing except he was the head of the salesmen's union,
Mr. Kennedy. But during 1955 or toward the end of 1955 did he
talk to you about another project ?
Mr. Kritch. Yes. I sold him a car in 1955, and he had told me
that he had a good thing going in Florida, that he wouldn't be with
the salesmen's union; that they were just a bunch of dopes and a
bunch of dumb salesmen, and they were hard to organize and he was
dropping that and going into something else.
Mr. Ivennedy. What conversation did a^ou have with him about
that?
Mr. Kritch. It came about — it was around December 9, 1955, just
before the Christmas holidays — I went to see Mr. Lower at 16939
James Couzens Avenue in Detroit, and he called me into his inner
office and I sat there, and he said that he had a great thing going in
Florida called Sun Valley, Fla. Even though lie was still associated
with tlie union as a business public relation, counsel that he thought
this would be a great retirement thing. So he spent a good hour ex-
plaining everything to me.
In the meantime I met his nephews, Marty Lower, and Henry
Ix)wer, and I talked to Tony Pertano and Dave Charmer who were
salesmen there. Bill Gurney at that time was business manager, still
is, but he wasn't in the office. Larry Bolin was a broker but he wasn't
around at the time. I met him later on in the day.
Mr. Lower asked me if I could also get someone else to go to work as
salesmen selling propertj^ in Florida. I said, "Well, I think so. I
have a very good friend of mine that worked with me for 2 years in
the automobile business by the name of Joe Fostino that I thought
would be very good." I would talk to Joe and we would probably see
Lower the following day, and we would give him our answer.
So the following day we were in and we gave Mr. Lower our an-
swer, and we said yes, we would take a chance at it. We would go
ahead and were willing to start because we thought it was a terrific
idea for retirement for people, especially elderly people, in Florida.
But he didn't want us to start until January 3, and w^e started to work
for him January 3.
Mr. Kennedy. "Wliere was he operating out of at that time ?
Mr. Kritch. He worked out of two places. He worked out of the
teamsters headquarters and he worked out of 16939 James Couzens.
Pie would spend the morning at the teamsters, and in the aftern<ion he
would spend an hour or two at Sun Valley, and that was his da}'.
Mr. Kennedy. Where would you report to him ?
Mr. Kritch. I would report to him at 16939 James Couzens head-
quarters.
Mr. Kennedy. Which was the Sun Valley headquarters.
5648 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, Kritch. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. But during this time lie was also working for the
teamsters ?
Mr. Kritch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He operated out of the teamsters lieadquarters ?
Mr. Kritch. He was there for about a good 3 months before he told
me one day that Jimmy told him that now since he has Sun Valley
going j^retty good, he shouldn't be hanging around the teamsters
place. He should be strictly down on James Couzens in charge of
Sun Valley.
Mr. Kennedy. What were your hnancial arrangements with him?
What was the situation in Sun Valley as it was explained to you?
Mr. Kritch. At the start we were to receive $75 a week salary, $25
a week expenses, and $10 per deal on each lot. I have all the cliecks
here how I was paid. He also told us that the property would be $445
for an 80 by 100 foot lot and gave us literature and letters that would
include roads and give us a lot of pictures and advertising and he told
us tliat he would then go into Florida for the ground-breaking cere-
monies about the 15th of March and they would put on quite an adver-
tising campaign to put this over. He also did not mention at that time
that the teamsters purchased property or anything like that but I
found it out a little later.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us what he told you about the money
invested in it, what he told you about it and what you found out as you
moved along ^
Mr. Kritch. As we moved along
Mr. Kennedy. How nuich did he pay? Did he tell you about that?
Mr. Kritch. The way T understand it, they bought 2.270 some acres
in the first plot — they called that section 28 — that was divided up into
2,250 lots with a section behind called section 29 and sections 5 and 6,
that tlie total ran them somewhere in the neighborhood of around
betv,-een $70,000 and $90,000. They had paid $40,000 for the property
that I know that they had borrowed money from Mr. — Mr. Hoft'a had
advanced them from the teamsters union.
Mr. Kennedy^. Mr. Chairman, in connection with those figures, we
will put the exact figures in subsequently with another witness.
This is what you understood at the time?
Mr. Kritch. That is what I understood.
Mr. Kennedy. The figures are not completely accurate, but we will
have the exact figures.
Mr. Kritch. I knew that Henry Lower did not have one dime,
and I knew that he did not put an3^thing into it. He was just put
at the head of i':. soit of.
Mr. Kennedy'. As it developed, you were selling these lots, were
you ?
Mr. Kritch. Was I selling these lots?
Mr. Kennedy'. Yes. You started selling the lots?
Mr. Kritch. Yes, as I went along, I found that 450 teamster mem-
bsrs or so, all over the country, that is Indianapolis, St. Louis, New
York, '^'^^•^do, as far as Town and Kansas City, all were buvino: prop-
erty, and it looked to me like a very good thing. It looked like it
was a ^^^lendid idea, and so I dug in and started to sell.
Mr. Kennedy'. And did you sell some lots ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5649
Mr. Kritcii. Yes, I sold about, 1 would say, $70,()()() worth in the
first 2 months. My partner did about equally the same. Lower was
so happy when the first 2-month period that he could pay back Jim-
my the amount of money that he had borrowed from the teamsters.
In fact, I know he was sweating it out every day. He kept writing
ever week on my check, "You can do better'" and "Better get on the
ball" and "Don't lay down on the job" and "Sell more lots." So I in
turn found out that he had owed this money to Jimmy llofi'a and had
to put it back into the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that the teamsters union had
loaned some money to Mr. Lower ? Did he tell you that ?
Mr. Kritch. Yes. 1 found that out later on. Mr. Bert Brennan,
he had mentioned that it was $50,000.
Mr. Kennedy. That tlie teamsters had loaned?
Mr. Kritch. To the Sun Valley project, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you tell the people to whom you were
selling these lots? Did you tell them that they would have paved
roads and all that type of thing?
Mr, Kritch. Well, we were told that, Mr. Kennedy. We were told
that they were going to have hard-surface roads, that the place would
have paved roads, and that it was a great retirement — you must under-
stand that I was not down there. We were getting the picture until
March 15 wdien they had the ground-bi-eaking ceremonies, w^e w^ere
just taking his word for everything, and that was in our selling cam-
paign, Avith the advertising that we were receiving from a television
station in Windsor.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Henry Lower go down and visit Florida and
tell you how it was progressing down there ?
Mr. Kritch. He would go down and come back and paint a pictui-e
to us and say, "How beautiful it looks, Joe. The roads are paved.
It is gorgeous. You should go out today and sell 20 moi'e lots."
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go out and tell these people that the roads
were paved and all these other things would be available?
Mr. Kritch. Well, he is our superior so, naturally, we follow^ed
what we thought was the truth, and we w^ent ahead until one day one
of the boys wrote a letter to Chicago and Dave Charmer told the
woman that the roads were paved and she investigated and got a report
and said it was not so.
Mr. Kennedy, She wrote an article about what the situation was
down there?
Mr. Kritch. Yes. Well, before she put her money into it, she
wanted to make sure that it was O. K., and that the roads were paved.
So she wrote an article to the paper
Mr. Kennedy. Wrote a letter ?
Mr, Kritch. Wrote a letter, I mean, to the Miami Herald in
Florida, and they in turn investigated it, and they in turn wrote a
bad aiticle in the Detroit papers and that sort of threw the crimp
in Sun Valley.
The Chairman. May I present to you what appears to be a form
letter from Henry Lower? It is undated, but it is on Sun Valley,
Inc., stationery. It is addressed, apparently, to the purchasers of
lots in that area. Will you examine it and state whether you identify
it?
893.30— 57— pt. 14 24
5650 EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(Document handed to witness.)
Mr. Kritch. Yes ; that is the letter.
The Chairman. Is that a part of the literature you were given to
hand out?
Mr. Kritch. Yes. Here is some more.
The Chairman. Let the letter presented to the witness be made
exhibit 29, and the others he presents there in sequence to it, similar
to it, will be made 29A, and so forth. You may call attention, if
you care to, to any highlights in those letters and that material you
are submitting.
(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits 29 and 29 A"
for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 5758, 5759.)
Mr. Kennedy. I think you should point out what you were prom-
ising the people.
Mr. Kritch. Well, we were promising the people hard surface
roads. That was the main promise we had given them. It says
assessed for sidewalks, curb, and that. They would pay the assess-
ments for that.
Mr. Kennedy. You promised them hard surface roads without
assessment?
Mr. Kritch. Yes. We promised hard surfaced roads, which in
Florida today are like a Corshean shell. The people, naturally, some
of them pretty close to retirement stage, would get ready to go down
and start building, or I could have a home started to he built for
them. There were some cases where some wanted to wait until they
came to their retirement stage. But they were figuring as the roads
went in, the property would improve and get a lot better, and it
would be worth, naturally, more money.
Mr. Kennedy. And then Mr. Lower, during this period of time,
was coming up and telling you what he saw down there ?
Mr. Kritch. Yes. He used to paint the pictures all the time. He
used to come back and tell us how beautiful it looked, he just flew
over, he drove all over the roads, and "Joe, it is wonderful. All the
rlreets are in." He kept promising us we would be down in Florida
every day, or this coming week. We never did go down to see it
because he didn't want us down there. Now I find out when we went
down for ground breaking ceremonies later on
Mr. KJENNEDY. You finally went down in March of 1957, is that
right?
Mr. Kritch. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. But prior to that, someone had had written to the
newspaper down in Florida and asked them to find out about the
place, and then an article had been written in the Detroit Free Press,
is that right, in October of 1956 ?
Mr. Kritch. That is when the fur really flew, when that article
came in the paper. We had sold a teamster prior to that week a lot,
so he naturally — you know, it is hard selling property 1,248 miles
away, in Michigan, we sold that man a lot. He was a teamster. He
owned a couple of trucks. He bought the property for $445; $50
down and $10 a month. He read this article on Sunday in the paper,
and Monday morning he stormed in the office and got hold of Bill
Gurney, office manager, tore his shirt off his back and was going to
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5651
punch him around a little. He said, "What are you selling me, dead
property, useless property ? Look at this article." Bill Gurney was
scared stiff.
Finally, anyway, the teamster left, and Bill Gurney immediately
called Henry Lower. Henry Lower got hold of the man's name and
telephone number and everything and called him on the phone. He
said, "Are you so and so?" And he said, "Yes." The reason I don't
want to mention his name is, it is tough to say anything about — if
you want the name, I will give it to you.
Mr. Kennedy. No, that is all light.
Mr. Kritcti. He says, "You know, this is Hoffa's deal. You don't
want the Black Maria tliere, do you? If I were you, I would go
in the office and apologize to Mr. Gurney." So he w^ent in. He
apologized the next day and bought him a new shirt. I told him,
I said, I told Lower that afternoon, I said, "Well, I think you ought
to do one thing, Henry," and so did my partner, Joe Fostino, "You
ought to give the man his $50 back." Lower kind of didn't want to
at first. He said, "What did he pay for the property?" And I said,
$445." He said. "You know, we get $545 now, another hundred dol-
lars." So he said, "O. K.," and he gave him his money back.
The Chairman. You spoke of an article in the paper. I show you
a copy of the Detroit Free Press, Sunday, October 14, 1956, and ask
jou to examine the front page and see if that carries the article that
you referred to, the news article that caused the trouble.
(Document handed to witness.)
]\Ir. Kritcii. Yes, that is it.
The Chairman. The article in that paper may be made exhibit 30
for reference.
(The article referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 30" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the Select Committee.)
Senator Curtis. Mv. Chairman.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. You referred to that telephone conversation when
Mr. Lower called this angry teamster. Were you present ?
Mr. Kritcii. Pardon me ?
Senator Curtis. Were you present ?
Mr. Kritcii. Was I present ?
Senator Cttrtis. Yes.
Mr. Kritcii. No ; I was not present.
Senator Curtis. How do you know tlie content of the conversation?
Mr. Kritcii. Mr. Gurney told me exactly what had happened. I was
standing right alongside Mr. Gurney.
Senator Curtis. When you said that this teamster went to the office
and roughed up Mr. Gurney, what office is that? Is that the Sun
Valley office?
Mr. Kritch. That is the Sun Valley office, 16939 James Couzens.
Senator CtrRTis. Was anybody working in there whose salary was
paid by the teamsters ?
Mr. Kritcii. Do you mean at the time ?
Senator Curtis. At any time. Was there anybody working for
this promotion whose compensation was paid by' the "teamsters, that
von know of ?
5652 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. KRnvii. AVoll. I think we were all paid, actually, throuirli him,
throuirh the teamsters. The only thinsr is, it was nmler the Sun Valley
banner.
Senator Cfrtis. Bnt yon were paid on a commission basis, were you
not i
Mr. IvRnx-H. T didn't understand that question.
Senator Ciirns. I mean someone on a reirular salary from the resfu-
lai- funds of the teamsters.
Mr. Kritch. No: the only one that 1 knew that was on the ]iayroll
from the teamsters actually when he was runninir Sun Valley was
Henry Lower.
Senator Curtis. That is what I want to know. Thank you.
^fr. Kf.xxedy. This article says :
Florida Haven is scrub oak and dry sand, but many Detroiters buy lots in Sun
Valley. A huL'e tract of Florida scrub-oak land originally promoted by officials of
the Detroit Teamsters Inion as a retirement haven for union brothers remains
uninhabited and without water or paviu^r.
It goes on then to describe the project :
The most descriptive line in its advertising is that the land is high and dry.
There are no water facilities. No. 2. Sun Valley has n«tt complied with a new
Florida law that its advertising material be tiled with the State commission. No.
3. although a prosi)ectiv<» purchaser from Chicago was told about paved boule-
vards and 30 miles of streets, there is not a foot of pavement.
Did you talk to Henry Lower about this, about this article ?
Mr. Kritch. Yes. In fact we had talked about it. You see, they
had put the bulldozer through there and dug up the dirt, but the
hard-surface roads had not gotten on yet. I kiuiw he went down
and raised a little heck and cain at the Detroit Free Press, that the
article was a little misleading. They did pave the boulevard where
they put the model homes on. We went down to see it later on and
they were selling from $14,9tH) to 5^16,900. But for retirement peo]^le
that was away out of the question, people purchasing homes like
that. They Mere going too far.
Mr. Kexxedy. "What was Mr. Lower's attitude toward the teamsters
who had purchased the h^ts at a lower price ?
Mr. Kritch. "We started to sell the pro])erty for $445 and then
he upped the price to $545. I will never forget the teamsters that
had bought property for $L50 a lot or 3 lots for $450. Lower would
comment in the office when they would call in on what was going on,
they would write in. and "How was Sun Valley developing T' which
they were entitled to know, he would say, "Bah, teamsters, they paid
$150 for their lots, and here we are getting $545. Let's cancel as
man}' out as we can. "We can get more money for them." So they
canceled quite a few of them out. They even passed the form around
to the teamsters' halls because I know 3 or 4 girls who work for the
teamsters in different locals, they got their money back on their
downpayments and on their lots that they had piu'chased for $150,
because they had found out it was no good from the newspaper arti-
cles. They thought the property was useless. "When Lower said.
""Well, I will give yon yom- money back." they said all right, and he
paid them their deposits back.
In the meantime that is what he wanted. "We would turn around
and sell the property for $545.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 5653
Mr. Kennedy. You say that he passed the word around at the
teamsters. What do you mean by that^ What word would you
pass around ?
Mr. Kritch. All you would have to do is to tell one girl down at
the office or somebody who purchased i)roperty at the teamsters' head-
quarters, and naturally it would get around.
Mr. Kennedy. What word would he be passing around ?
Mr. Kritch. If they wanted their money back on the proi)erty,
they had bought before at Sun Valley, that he would be willing to
give them their deposits back. They bouglit the land for $150 a lot.
Now he was getting $545. So a lot of them figured it was better to
take it after reading the articles like that in the paper and not knowing
that Lower was reselling it for $545.
Mr. Kennedy. What conversations did you have with Lower about
his relationship with Jimmy Hoffa ?
Mr. Kritch. While we were in the office — we had done quite a job
on selling property and we had put him over what the so-called hump
was, this partner of mine, it was about lunch time. The two girls
were not in the office. They were out to lunch. I had asked Lower,
"Say, Henry, whatever happened to that Rosedale strike when you
w^ere head oi the salesmen's union ? You know." "Oh," he says, "We
won that strike, you remember." I said, "I know you won the strike,
but how did it finally come out?" He said, "Well, we fought that a
long time, and that owner fought us a long time."
I used to pass by there coming from home down Grand River Ave-
nue from Northville and 1 could see 6 or 7 pickets. Henry Lower
mentioned that they had found out in the meantime that this Mr. Love
that owned the llosedale Motors had a bad heart. So they passed it on
to — the pickets had passed it on to him and he had found out, because
Lower would make that strike go 3 or 4 times a week — he passed it
immediately on to Jimmy Hoft'a, 
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