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Given By
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U. S. SUPT. OF DOCUME1TTS
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SITORY
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTIONS 74 AND 221, 85TH CONGRESS
JULY 31 AND AUGUST 1, 1958
PART 35
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT EIELD
EIGHTY-FIFTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTIONS 74 AND 221, 85TH CONGRESS
JULY 31 AND AUGUST 1, 1958
PART 35
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
21243 WASHINGTON : 1958
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
NOV 17 1958
SELECT COMMITTEE ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR
OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas, Chairman
IRVING M. IVES, New York, Vice Chairman
JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota
SAM J. ERVIN, JR., North Carolina BARRY GOLDWATER, Arizona
FRANK CHURCH, Idaho CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska
Robert F. Kennedy, Chief Counsel
Roth Yodng Watt, Chief Clerk
II
CONTENTS
inen and Overall Supply Industry in the Detroit Area
Page
Appendix 1 327 1
Testimony of —
Colton, Sol R 13188
Dawson, Mrs. Nancy 13207, 13218
Harold, Ben 13136
Kierdorf , Herman 13224
Lehr , Joseph 13244
Meli, Vincent H 13174
Miller, Irvin Paul 13126, 13133, 13147
Petroff, Edward 13237
Root, William 13172
Rosenberg, Allan 13157
Salinger, Pierre E. G 13130, 13187
Taylor, Dawson 13193
Taylor, Hanley 13193
Tessmer, Ray 13162
Warren, Joseph 13148
Yerkes, Malcolm 13139
EXHIBITS
Introduced Appears
on page on page
1. Memorandum dated October 18, 1957, and signed by M.
Yerkes, Arrow Overall Supply Co 13142 (*)
2. Telegram addressed to J. R. Hoffa, dated October 17, 1957,
and signed by M. Yerkes, Arrow Overall Supply Co 13144 (*)
3. Petition signed by employees of Gib Bergstrom Pontiac Co _ 13152 (*)
4. Recognition agreement, Garage and Service Employees
Local Union No. 376 13156 (*)
5. Affidavit of Frank J. McLaughlin, Jr., of Detroit, Mich__. 13156 (*)
6. Telegram dated November 1, 1957, addressed to Ray
Tessmer, Jefferson Chevrolet Co., from Eddie Petroff,
Local 376, Teamsters 13166 (*)
7. Affidavit of Richard B. Taylor, of Detroit, Mich 13171 (*)
8. Local Union No. 376, Garage and Service Employees
agreement 13026 (*)
9. Telephone message dated July 9, 1958, as taken down by
Virginia Slepak from "Teamsters, Mr. Hoffa" for Mrs.
Dawson 13208 13271
10. Telephone message dated July 16, 1958, as taken down by
Virginia Slepak for Mrs. Dawson 13209 13271
11. Telegram dated September 23, 1957, addressed to Star
Coverall Supply Co., from Dawson Industrial Laundry,
Inc 13212 13272
12. Handwritten copies of minutes of local union No. 376
meetings 13239 (*)
13. Check No. 9168 dated December 24, 1957, payable to
Joseph Lehr in the amount of $3,000 drawn by Kurz
Alt Heidelberg, signed by George O. Kurz 13254 13273
Proceedings of —
July 31, 1958 13125
August 1, 1958 13187
*May be found in the files of the select committee.
Ill
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
THURSDAY, JULY 31, 1958
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
in the Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D. 0.
The select committee met at 11 a. m., pursuant to Senate Kesolution
74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room, United States
Senate, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select committee)
presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator
Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat, North Carolina ; Senator Frank Church,
Democrat, Idaho; Senator Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York;
Senator Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona; Senator Carl T.
Curtis, Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; John J. McGovern,
assistant counsel ; Pierre E. Salinger, investigator ; Ruth Young Watt,
chief clerk.
(At this point, the following members were present: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Ives, Ervin, and Goldwater.)
The Chairman. The hearing will be in order.
The Chair will make a brief statement regarding the next phase of
its work. The committee now turns its attention to another specific
phase in the continuing inquiry we are making into racketeer and
hoodlum infiltration into legitimate business and union enterprises.
In our hearings into the gangland meetings at Apalachin, N. Y., and
the infiltration of racketeers into management and labor in the Chi-
cago restaurant industry, we have already established the existence
of an organized conspiracy to control certain management and labor
activities.
Evidence presented at the time of the Apalachin hearing confirmed
the close ties between racketeers in New York, Cleveland, upper New
York State, and Pennsylvania, with individuals in Detroit, Mich.
Further testimony was to the effect that the Detroit group is a close-
knit operation controlling illegal activities in a number of different
fields, including gambling and narcotics.
Now we shall inquire into whether or not known racketeers, or asso-
ciates of known racketeers, have established a base in the linen and
overall industries in Detroit, Mich.
Further, as our background hearings on the Apalachin meeting
participants indicated, the linen and overall industries are appealing
in that they deal in cash and with customers who are susceptible to
various types of pressures. We will be interested in and will try to
13125
13126 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
determine what type of pressures were used by these linen and overall
companies in the expansion of their businesses and, particularly, as
to the part played by certain key officials of the International Brother-
hood of Teamsters in the Detroit area.
The committee will be interested in finding out what, if anything,
Mr. James R. Hoffa did in the way of either curbing or condoning the
activities of these Teamster officials.
Mr. Hoffa has been asked to return before the committee in the week
beginning August 4, 1958, at which time he will be asked about these
matters being presented this week, as well as a number of other sub-
jects of interest to the committee.
All right, Mr. Counsel, call the next witness. Let the clerk note
that the exhibits from here on will be started with No. 1, in this series
of hearings.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Irvin Paul Miller.
The Chairman. Be sworn, please, sir.
You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Sen-
ate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Miller. I do.
TESTIMONY OF IRVIN PAUL MILLER
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, Mr. Miller.
Mr. Miller. My name is Irvin Paul Miller. I reside in Detroit,
Mich. I am owner of the New Method Laundry & Coverall Supply.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. You waive counsel, do you,
Mr. Miller?
Mr. Miller. I do.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Miller, you are one of the owners of the New
Method Laundry ; is that right ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. It is also a dry-cleaning company ; is that right ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you contacted in 1952 by Mr. Vincent Meli ?
Mr. Miller. I was.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the son of Mr. Angelo Meli ; is that correct ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us what your conversations were
with Mr. Vincent Meli ?
Mr. Miller. Mr. Meli and a fellow named Louis Eisenberg wanted
to rent a building I had.
Mr. Kennedy. Louis Eisenberg?
Mr. Miller. That is right, They wanted to rent a building that I
had vacant at the time and set up a coverall business.
Mr. Kennedy. A coverall business ?
Mr. Miller. Coverall supplies.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you explain what the coverall supply busi-
ness is ?
Mr. Miller. Well, they rent uniforms and coveralls and shop tools
to gas stations, tool shops, anything that they might want to wear
uniforms at.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13127
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Vincent Meli told you at that time that he
was going to set up such a company and wanted to rent a building ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell what happened there, subsequently ?
Mr. Miller. Well, he and Mr. Eisenberg came down and looked at
the building and decided it would be all right for their use. We had
a meeting approximately a week or so later and we went over prices
as to what we were charging to do the work.
They were going strictly in the rental phase of it, and we were to do
the washing and ironing, the processing. At that time, we concluded
a contract as to prices we would charge, and a fellow named Joseph
Lehr entered into the picture.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Joe Lehr ? L-e-h-r ?
Mr. Miller. L-e-h-r, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And he came into the picture also at that time ?
Mr. Miller. He came in at the time that we signed a contract, al-
though he did not sign it.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it indicated at that time that he was to be a
partner in this business ?
Mr. Miller. Well, he said that he was coming in as a partner just
as soon as he got served with Klean Linen. He had some dealing there
that he had money coming from.
Mr. Kennedy. That is Klean Linen that he had been associated
with ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you spell that ?
Mr. Miller. K-1-e-a-n, I believe it is.
Mr. Kennedy. Who had been the one that operated Klean Linen
that Mr. Lehr had been in with ?
Mr. Miller. Well, Mr. Lehr was a salesman, a field salesman there,
I believe, at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know who owned Klean Linen ?
Mr. Miller. He was questioned on television awhile before that,
but I don't recall what his name is.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, in a few minutes we will put in a
little bit of the background of that company, as well as the background
of some of these individuals that this witness is mentioning, so we can
get a clear picture of the situation.
Did you have any conversations with Vincent Meli or Mr. Lehr as
to the difficulty in operating this kind of a business, that there was
going to be a great deal of competition %
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate to the committee your conversa-
tions about that ?
Mr. Miller. Well, at the time I asked them why they were starting
a coverall business when the competition was so keen.
At that time, they told me that they weren't worried about competi-
tion because they had enough backing that they could get all the cover-
all business they needed.
Mr. Kennedy. What do you mean enough backing? What was
meant by that ?
Will you explain it ?
Mr. Miller. Well, at that time he said it was pressure, they would
put pressure on stops and they would take them over.
13128 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. He said they had it-
Mr. Miller. They had the pressure backing to take over the stops.
Mr. Kennedy. He said they could put pressure to take over the
stops ?
Mr. Miller. That is right. They had enough people behind them
"with power to step in and take over.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate who some of those people were?
Mr. Miller. Angelo Meli was one of them.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a very well known gangster and hoodlum in
Detroit?
Mr. Miller. That is right. He is Vince Meli's father.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he tell you some of the others back of it?
Mr. Miller. Pete Licavoli and Joe Bommarito.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that Scarf ace Joe ?
Mr. Miller. That is the one, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Are they all well-known gangsters and hoodlums in
the Detroit area ?
Mr. Miller. They have been for several years.
Mr. Kennedy. He indicated to you that these individuals would be
the ones that could apply the pressure for them to get the business;
is that right?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever see any of these people in the head-
quarters of the new company ?
Mr. Miller. They met occasionally in the office of the building that
I rented them.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever see Pete Licavoli in there ?
Mr. Miller. On one occasion I was asked in to meet the boys, and
Joe Lehr took me in, and introduced me. Bommarito, Licavoli, and
Angelo Meli were there at the time. Of course, I was hustled in and
introduced to them and hustled right out again.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Mr. Angelo Meli in there on other occasions ?
Mr. Miller. Several times.
Mr. Kennedy. You saw him a number of times ?
Mr. Miller. It seemed every time they were ready to take over a big
stop, he would be in there meeting with them, I assume laying out
some sort of strategy.
(At this point, Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Why would these people be able to take over stops
and get business for this new company ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I imagine with their underworld background,
that a lot of small-business men and gas stations and garages would
be afraid to give them an argument. A lot of people like to live on.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that the way it appeared to you at the time ?
Mr. Miller. That is the way it appeared to me.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the impression he gave you in relating
these facts to you, is that right ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That this was the pressure they would be able to
put on businesses ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. The underworld connections of these individuals?
Mr. Miller. That is ris;ht.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13129
Mr. Kennedy. Did Joe Lehr indicate to you that he had any
connections with the union ?
Mr. Miller. On one occasion. We had a misunderstanding with a
driver over pay and I was called by local 285. I felt that I was in the
right, that I didn't owe the driver what he was asking for. So I asked
for a meeting with the imion after he called me. We set up a schedule
to meet and discuss this particular case.
Mr. Lehr heard about it, he happened to be in the office at the time. I
don't know whether he was paying the bill or whether he stopped to
pick up his mail in there or why he was there, but he happened to be
there for a minute, and he told me after I hung up the phone, or he
asked me, rather, if I was having trouble with the union, and I said :
"Well, it is just a minor matter ; I can settle it. There is nothing to it."
He said, "Well, if you have any trouble with them, let me know, and
I will take them off your back right away."
Mr. Kennedy. He said he could straighten it out ?
Mr. Miller. He said he could straighten it out, that he had good
connections with the union.
Mr. Kennedy. What union was this?
Mr. Miller. Teamsters Local 285.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know of his relationship with any of the
Teamsters officials ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that the company had a close relation-
ship with some of the Teamsters officials with criminal records ?
Mr. Miller. Well, at different times there had been different things
said. I don't recall offhand. But the understanding I got was they
would go to the old man, the one they called Angelo Meli, and he in
turn knew where to put the pressure on then in the union to keep them
off anybody's back.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know of his close relationship with Mr.
Hoffa at that time ?
Mr. Miller. No ; I never was told that they were buddy-buddy or
anything, but he said that they had plenty of good connections there.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you, yourself, ever threatened by this com-
pany?
What was the name of the company ?
What name did they take ?
Mr. Miller. Star Coverall Co.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you, yourself, ever threatened or did you have
any dispute with the company ?
Mr. Miller. On one occasion, shortly after they went into business,
probably 2^ to 3 months, there was a load of coveralls faded in the
machine when it was being washed. I mean, all the colors run. That
is something very unusual in this business, because we use all patent
laundry soaps and supplies; they are guaranteed against fading
But in this particular instant, the whole machine load faded, and we
were at a loss to find out what caused it. We began checking it and
we could come up with no answer of our own as to why it happened,
other than the fact that somebody may have put a capsule in one of
the clothes after it was put in the machine, at one of their particular
stops.
The outcome was that we paid $ 783 to Star Coverall for that load.
13130 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. What conversation did you have with anybody at
Star Coverall about that ?
Mr. Miller. When it happened, Mr. Lehr became very excited. In
fact, he seemed to be running the show there, or running the outfit, I
might say, the coverall company, and he said the old man was not
going to like that, that somebody was going to have to pay for it.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was meant by the old man ?
Mr. Miller. Angelo Meli.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they also refer to Angelo Meli ?
Mr. Miller. He did, in particular, he always referred to him as
the old man.
Mr. Kennedy. He said in this connection that the old man did not
like this?
Mr. Miller. That somebody was going to have to pay for that load.
I was given to believe within that same week that I better pay for it,
or there was going to be some pretty rough stuff go on around there.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you pay for it?
Mr. Miller. I paid for the load.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you pay for it ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I like to live on, too. Sometimes you get kind
of scared of things, you know. Everybody has a point where they
give in.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to call in this con-
nection a staff member to give the background of some of these indi-
viduals.
The Chairman. Mr. Miller, if you will, remain seated.
Be sworn again.
You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate
select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Salinger. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PIERRE E. G. SALINGER
The Chairman. State your name and your present occupation,
please ?
Mr. Salinger. My name is Pierre Salinger. I reside at 3611 O
Street NW.5 Washington, D. C. I am an investigator for this com-
mittee.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Salinger, we have had some discussions about
three individuals here, Mr. Angelo Meli, Mr. Pete Licavoli, and Mr.
Joe Bommarito. Can j^ou give us the background of any of those
individuals?
Mr. Salinger. I can, sir.
First, with respect to Mr. Angelo Meli, Mr. Angelo Meli was born
in Italy in 1897, and came to the United States in 1913. He was
naturalized in 1929. During 1956, the Immigration Department at-
tempted to denaturalize him, but this action was dismissed on Decem-
ber 24, 1957. It is currently under appeal by the Immigration Depart-
ment. He has an extensive police record going back to 1919.
He has been arrested three times for murder, once for kidnaping,
three times for carrying concealed weapons; despite this extensive
record, however, he has only been convicted one time, and that was on
the charge of carrying a concealed weapon in 1920.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13131
Mr. Kennedy. Is it true that in 1929 or thereabouts, in early 1930,
that he traveled around in a bulletproof automobile ?
Mr. Salinger. In 1930 he was the head of the Capital Coal Co. in
Detroit, and it came to the attention of the police that this firm was
being used as a drop for macliineguns and rifles sent to Detroit
criminals by New York gangsters. At that time also they found this
car which had machinegun emplacements in it.
Mr. Kennedy. His automobile had machinegun emplacements in it ?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Meli has been in a number of ventures. In the early 1920's, he
was listed by the Detroit Police Department as public enemy No. 1,
and the police department sent out orders that they were to arrest him
on sight. During the early 1920's, he was associated with another
gentleman in the operation of the Whip Cafe, in Detroit, Mich., a
center of gambling and other crimes. He also was a partner in the
operation of the Chalet Gambling Den in Detroit during the 1930*s.
It might be interesting to note that among his partners in this ven-
ture was Louis Riccardi, the owner of the Klean Linen Co. mentioned
here earlier.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the company that Mr. Joe Lehr had been
associated with ?
Mr. Salinger. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Briefly, and I don't want to interrupt on Angelo
Meli, but briefly on Mr. Riccardi, has he a long criminal record also ?
Mr. Salinger. He does.
Mr. Kennedy. For instance, how many times has Mr. Riccardi been
arrested for murder?
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Riccardi has been arrested for murder five times.
I can give you the times, if you are interested. He has also been
arrested a number of times for other charges, like carrying concealed
weapons, robberies, as I say, in the early. 1940's, associated in this
gambling operation with Angelo Meli and others.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a well-known figure in the underworld ?
Mr. Salinger. Very well known in the underworld in Detroit.
Mr. Angelo Meli has had a number of so-called legitimate interests.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you spell Riccardi ?
Mr. Salinger. R-i-c- c-a-r-d-i.
Among these companies in which he has had an interest has been
the J. & J. Novelty Co., which is a jukebox operation, the Daller Dry
Cleaners, the Bilvin Distributing Co. We have had some testimony
about that in our hearings on the Teamsters earlier. That is the com-
pany in which William Bufalino of local 985 had an interest. The
Flint Cold Storage Co., the Federal Auto Supply Co., the Club Royal,
and the J & R Amusement Co.
He also shows considerable income from real estate and owns a large
farm in Marine City, Mich. Mr. Meli has been a fugitive from the
committee now for a period of some time.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have been looking for him for a
long period of time.
Mr. Salinger. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who is that ?
Mr. Salinger. Angelo Meli.
Mr. Kennedy. We have been unable to find him.
Mr. Salinger. Now with regard to Joe Bommarito
13132 IMPROPER ACTWITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. On Mr. Buf alino, you mentioned his being interested
in the same company that Angelo Meli was interested in. Is he related
toMr.Meli?
Mr. Salinger. He is.
Mr. Kennedy. What is his relation ?
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Meli's niece is married to Mr. William E.
Bufalino.
Mr. Kennedy. Then also Mr. Hoffa testified before the committee
that he considers himself a friend of Mr. Meli's, is that right?
Mr. Salinger. He did, yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. All right.
Mr. Salinger. Joe Bommarito, known as "Scarface" Joe Bom-
marito, was born in St. Louis, Mo., in 1903, but moved to Detroit at
an early age. He is reputed in the reports that we have to have been
the triggerman in a number of gang slayings in the Detroit area.
He was arrested and tried for the murder of a local commentator
in the Detroit area named Jerry Buckley. Buckley was shot and
killed in Detroit in 1927 following his expose of political and crim-
inal tieups in Detroit. Bommarito and two others were acquitted
after a long-time trial on this. Bommarito was also a prime suspect
in the shooting of a Detroit police inspector, Henry Garvin, who was
the head of the bomb squad of the Detroit Police Department. He is
reported to have several legitimate interests, including the Michigan
Mutual Distributing Co.; a partnership with Peter Licavoli in the
Apache Building Corp.; and an interest in the G & S Service Co.
We have other information here about his associates.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we are also looking for this indi-
vidual, "Scarface" Joe Bommarito. We located him tentatively
down in Florida. He has also disappeared and we have been unable
to find him. These are two of the individuals, are they not, that were
behind this operation as related to Mr. Miller?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct, sir. A third one was Mr. Peter
Licavoli, who was born in St. Louis, Mo., in 1902. Mr. Licavoli,
maintains 2 residences, 1 in Grosse Pointe, Mich., and the other in
Tuscon, Ariz.
Incidentally, his wife is Grace Bommarito, who is the sister of
"Scarface" Joe Bommarito. Licavoli was just sentenced to 2^2
years in the Federal penitentiary for violation of the income-tax laws.
This sentence was passed on him Monday in Detroit, Mich. He has
an extensive police record dating back to 1922, involving robbery,
armed robbery, violation of the Volstead Act, kidnaping, carrying
concealed weapons, murder, extortion, assault and battery.
The Chairman. What interest did he have in this particular
company ?
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Licavoli was mentioned to Mr. Miller as one
of the people who was backing the Star Coverall Co., to assist them
in getting business.
The Chairman. Did you testify that this man was identified to you
as one of the backers of this business ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Licavoli, according to the reports we have, has
long been associated with the numbers racket in Detroit, Mich., and,
also, during prohibition was active in the running of whisky from
Canada into the United States.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 13133
He has amassed quite a fortune and has a number of legitimate
interests, which include the Grace Ranch in Tucson, Ariz., which is a
very lavish setup there; the Casa Catalina Motel, in Tucson, Ariz.;
the Tucson Printing Co., in Tucson, Ariz.; the Apache Building
Corp., which operates in both Tucson and Detroit, which is currently
building extensive subdivisions in Detroit.
The Machine Tray Pak Corp. in Detroit, Mich., a corporation
formed for the manufacturing of machines and devices for the pack-
aging of fruits and other perishable fruits. He and "Scarface"
jointly own two apartment buildings in Detroit, also, the Emerson
Apartments and the Longfellow Apartments. His brother, Thomas
Yonnie Licavoli, who was associated with him in his early days in
Detroit, is currently serving a life sentence in the Ohio State Peni-
tentiary. He has been there since 1933. According to
Mr. Kennedy. Is there anything else ?
Mr. Salinger. No ; that is the background.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the background of these individuals. Does
he also have an interest in a racetrack ?
Mr. Salinger. It has recently come to our attention that he does
have an interest in a racetrack in Tucson, Ariz., called the Rillito
Park Racetrack.
Mr. Kennedy. And some of his relatives also have rather an exten-
sive interest in that racetrack ?
Mr. Salinger. A number of shares of stock are held in the name
of Grace Licavoli, who is his wife.
TESTIMONY OP IRVIN PAUL MILLER— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. Is it because of the background of these individuals
that there would be some fear from the operation of this company?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. It is well known in Detroit about these people?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. There is one other matter that I want to discuss
with you, Mr. Miller. In the 1940's, were you having difficulty sign-
ing a contract with the Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I didn't at that time, but my brother did.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the name of the company ?
Mr. Miller. New Method Laundry.
Mr. Kennedy. He was operating it?
Mr. Miller. He was operating it inside and I had charge of the
routes.
Mr. Kennedy. Had the Teamsters Union local been adamant about
signing the contract ?
Mr. Miller. Well, they had run into this stalemate.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was operating the union at that time?
Mr. Miller. Isaac Litwak.
Mr. Kennedy. What local ?
Mr. Miller. Local 285.
Mr. Kennedy. You were having difficulty, were you, then ?
Mr. Miller. They could not get together and agree on it. This
probably went along for about a month.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us what happened; how it was
settled ?
13134 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Miller. "Well, along after about a month, it was getting to a
point where there was either going to be a strike in the industry or
something had to be done about the contract.
The Chairman. You had reached a deadlock in the negotiations to
where the next step looked like it was a strike.
Mr. Miller. That is right.
The Chairman. Or you had to capitulate to their demands?
Mr. Miller. That is right. Mr. Howard Backwell and John Meis-
ner came in to see my brother. They evidently were the men in full
charge of this contract signing.
Mr. Kennedy. That is M-e-i-s-n-e-r?
Mr. Miller. M-e-i-s-n-e-r, I believe it is.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is the other man ?
Mr. Miller. Howard Backwell.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you spell his name?
Mr. Miller. I believe it is B-a-c-k-w-e-1-1.
Mr. Kennedy. He was in charge?
Mr. Miller. Backwell was president of the laundry association in
Detroit, and Meisner acted in the capacity of adviser, or a capacity of
some kind, with Mr. Backwell. We didn't see him only 2 or 3 times a
year that they came around there, but, at the time of this contract
deadlock, they were there pretty regularly.
On one particular day, I went in to check the dry checks for my
routes, which hung in another room where the office was, and Mr.
Backwell and Mr. Meisner were just coming out of the office. 1
stopped to talk with them for a couple of minutes, and I went on
about my work. A short time later, my brother called me in and said
that they would get the contract signed now; that they had it all
straightened out. I said, "How did you work that out?"
He said, "Well, they made a deal with somebody higher up in the
union to pay a certain figure for drivers, every laundry that was
covered under this contract."
Mr. Kennedy. A certain amount of money was to be paid per
driver to a union official that was higher up than Mr. Litwak?
Mr. Miller. That is right,
Mr. Kennedy. That was of the Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Miller. That is right-
Mr. Kennedy. And so much money was to be given to this indi-
vidual ?
Mr. Miller. That is right. All the laundries were covered under
this Teamsters contract. It was a blanket contract. When they
signed for one, they signed for all. At that time, I imagine there was
upward of about 1,700 or 1,800 drivers in the city.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the contract get signed immediately ?
Mr. Miller. The contract was signed less than a week later.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Litwak gave in on all of his demands?
Mr. Miller. That is right. There were no further negotiations
on it. It was signed as it was the previous year.
The Chairman. You finally concluded the contract with no change,
no additional benefits, so far as the employees were concerned?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
The Chairman. In other words, you and your brother won out,
insofar as the position you were taking was concerned, with respect
to contract terms ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13135
Mr. Miller. That is right. I would like to clarify my position at
that time, though. I was supervisor of the routes, and I also was a
member of the that union. It was cleared up at that time.
The Chairman. I understand. But, anyway, when you reached
the higher ups, when you got up there, it was signed on the basis and
terms that you wanted ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
The Chairman. I mean that the company wanted.
Mr. Miller. That the company wanted.
Mr. Kennedy. And your brother told you that the money was paid ?
Mr. Miller. That is right. He told me that he had made his part
of the payoff to them, and now they would get the contract signed.
Mr. Kennedy. And a higher official in the Teamsters Union in
Detroit had given instructions to Litwak ?
Mr. Miller. Would give instructions to Isaac Litwak to sign the
contract as is.
The Chairman. Did you understand at the time that this was
actually just a payoff; that the money was not going into the union
treasury or was not going to benefit the men ?
Mr. Miller. That is right. I understood it was a direct payoff.
(At this point, Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we will have a good deal more testi-
mony on this matter next week, starting early in the week, as to the
recipient of the money. That is all for now.
The Chairman. Have you any questions, Senator Ervin ?
Senator Ervin. I have no questions.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Miller.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Peter Licavoli.
The Chairman. Mr. Licavoli, come around, please.
Do we have any information about him ?
Does anyone present, anyone on the staff or anyone in the audience,
the press, or anyone else, have any information about Mr. Peter
Licavoli, of Detroit, Mich. ?
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we had a conversation with his attor-
ney, and also sent him a telegram. The telegram was returned with
the notation that the addressee had refused to accept the telegram.
We notified his attorney that he should be here and be prepared to
testify, and the attorney stated at that time that, as Mr. Licavoli was
served at a time while he was in Detroit, Mich., while he was awaiting
sentence, that he doubted if Mr. Licavoli was going to appear before
the committee. He was notified at that time that that was no reason
for his not appearing, and that he should be here. He is being called
at this time.
The Chairman. The Chair has before him the official subpena
served on Mr. Licavoli; according to the return on it, it was served
in Detroit, Mich., in the 8th-floor lobby of the Federal Building, at
10 : 42 a. m. on the 28th day of July. It was served, according to the
return, by Edward M. Jones. This subpena will be printed in the
record at this point.
Unless Mr. Licavoli appears during the day, I will ask counsel to
make a further statement for the record, if he does not appear during
13136 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
the day, as to further contacts or contacts you had with his counsel^
and so forth. Then the committee staff will be instructed to imme-
diately prepare contempt action so that the committee may process
it promptly.
(The subpena referred to is as follows :)
United States of America,
Congress of the United States
To Peter Licavoli,
Detroit, Michigan.
Greeting :
Pursuant to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear
before the Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or
Management Field of the Senate of the United States, on forthwith, 195 — , at
o'clock in., at their committee room 101 Senate Office Building, Washington^
D. C., then and there to testify what you may know relative to the subject
matters under consideration by said committee.
Hereof fail not, as you will answer your default under the pains and penalties
in such cases made and provided.
To to serve and return.
Given under my hand, by order of the committee, this 25th day of July in
the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred and fifty-eight.
John L. McClellan,
Chairman, Senate Select Committee on, Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field.
It is requested that you telephonically contact Mr. Robert F. Kennedy at
Washington, D. C, Capitol 4-3121, extension 4848, for further instructions.
July 28, 1958.
I made service of the within subpena by personal service, the within-named
Peter Licavoli at Detroit, Mich. (8th-floor lobby, Federal Building), at 10:45
a. m., on the 28th day of July 1958.
Edward M. Jones.
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Ben Harold, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Harold, you do solemnly swear the evidence
you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Harold. I do.
TESTIMONY OF BEN HAROLD
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Harold. My name is Ben Harold; I reside in Detroit. I am
general manager for Central Overall Supply Co.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. You waive counsel ?
Mr. Harold. Yes ; I do.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been in the overall-supply
business ?
Mr. Harold. About 8 years.
Mr. Kennedy. About 8 years ?
Mr. Harold. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long has your company been in existence ?
Mr. Harold. The company has been in existence about 35 years.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13137
Mr. Kennedy. Has there been a situation since 1953, Mr. Harold,
where you have lost a great number of accounts to a certain company
in Detroit ?
Mr. Harold. Yes ; there has.
Mr. Kennedy. Under rather unusual circumstances ?
Mr. Harold. Well, we have been serving quite a number of accounts
for a number of years, and it appeared that we had lost some of these
accounts rather summarily without any previous notice of disapproval
of our service by these customers.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you lose these accounts to any one company?
Mr. Harold. Well, we lost a considerable number to Star Coverall
Supply Co.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the company that took these accounts;
was it ?
Mr. Harold. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And some of these accounts had been with you for
10 or 15 years?
Mr. Harold. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. What reason did the accounts give for changing
over?
Mr. Harold. Well, there was actually no reason given for bad serv-
ice, as I recall. It was just that management had decided to make a
change in their supplier.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever understand why they were changing
over to Star Coverall ?
Mr. Harold. No ; we could not understand why. In some instances,
I believe, we were told that, well, maybe a press job was not just
right or something like that.
The Chairman. Maybe what ?
Mr. Harold. Maybe part of the service, pressing a shirt or some-
thing like that, wasn't correct. Maybe that was the reason that they
were quitting.
Mr. Kennedy. Did that make any sense to you ?
Mr. Harold. It did not make any sense to us because, in our type
of business, just like in every type of business, I imagine there are
certain times when things go wrong, where an order goes wrong,
and it is certainly nothing that is a great catastrophe or which should
warrant making that change, in my opinion.
The Chairman. Had you had any complaints where they indicated
they were dissatisfied or unhappy about your service ?
Mr. Harold. No ; we had not.
The Chairman. So, this complaint about a little shirt being pressed
wrong came afterward ; that is, explanation afterward ?
Mr. Harold. That is correct.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have Mr. Salinger
testify as to what the records of Mr. Harold's company show as to
the number of accounts that were lost and their value.
The Chairman. You have checked those records, have you ?
Mr. Salinger. I have, sir.
The Chairman. Of this company ?
Mr. Salinger. I have.
21243— 58— pt. 35-
13138 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. All right. You may make a statement about it.
Mr. Salinger. This company, during the years late 1952, 1953, and
into 1954
Mr. Kennedy. That was immediately after Star Coverall was
formed ; is that correct ?
Mr. Salinger. Correct. They lost a total of 75 accounts to the
Star Coverall Co., the value of which was $78,000 per year.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the value over the period, then ?
Mr. Salinger. Well, assuming that the Central Coverall Co. had
maintained these accounts over the period from then to now, or to
the end of 1957, the value of this business is $312,000.
The Chairman. Assuming that the business had not increased?
Mr. Salinger. Assuming that the business had not increased.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever get any further explanation as to why
you lost these ?
Mr. Harold. No, we did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever discuss the matter with other coverall
companies?
Mr. Harold. Well, we talked about it, and mentioned that we had
been losing certain accounts, or a considerable number of accounts or
volume of business to this one particular company.
I might say that we pick up and lose accounts every day. It is a
common occurrence in the industry. But this particular time we
seemed to be losing more to this one particular company than to others.
Mr. Kennedy. Did anybody else have a theory, any of the other
coverall companies?
Mr. Harold. Well, we knew the background of the management of
Star.
The Chairman. What is that background ?
Mr. Harold. The background of Mr. Meli, Vincent Meli, and his
connection through his father, and we had suspected that perhaps
there was something that was not quite, shall we say, regular in the
way these accounts had been leaving us.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have some information indicating that,
actual information as to the type, as to the kind of companies that
were leaving you ?
Mr. Harold. No, we had no definite information as to why they
were leaving.
Mr. Kennedy. What ?
Mr. Harold. We had no definite information as to why they were
leaving, other than just a statement by management that they thought
now was the time for a change.
Mr. Kennedy. You say that you knew something about the back-
ground of this company, and Angelo Meli; did you ever hear also
that the company had a close association with the Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Harold. No, we never heard that.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear that anybody in the company had a
close association with any of the individuals in the Teamsters Union?
Mr. Harold. No, not with the individuals.
Mr. Kennedy. What about the automobile dealers? You did not
hear anything about the Teamsters Union in regard to them ?
Mr. Harold. Well, we had heard some references to the fact that
one of the general agents of the Teamsters had been going out to
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13139
some of the stops with Mr. Lehr to visit accounts, and influencing
them to switch over.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you did hear that there was an association be-
tween certain officials of this company and the Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Harold. Yes. In that respect, yes.
The Chairman. Do I understand that you understood that this
Teamsters official went around to these places of business and changed
these accounts from you to the other company %
Mr. Harold. Well, it did not happen with our accounts that we
knew of, that Teamsters were involved with the change. We did
hear that from other sources.
The Chairman. You did not hear that until afterward ?
Mr. Harold. That is correct.
The Chairman. But you did not know it at the time. You did
learn afterward?
Mr. Harold. That is right. Let me say that we did not know, we
still do not know, that any of the accounts that left us left because of
pressures of this particular individual of the Teamsters Union.
Mr. Kennedy. But you did hear that a number of the automobile
dealers had given up their accounts, had given their accounts to the
Star Coverall Co. because of the pressures of the Teamsters %
Mr. Harold. That is true.
Mr. Kennedy. So there are two theories that you had. One was
the background of this company, with its gangster connections and
the second was the information that you got regarding the connection
with the Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Harold. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is why your company and other companies
were losing these accounts ?
Mr. Harold. That was our theory, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear who this connection was with in the
Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Harold. Well, there were Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Kennedy. Herman Kierdorf ?
Mr. Harold. Herman Kierdorf. I don't remember the exact name.
Mr. Kennedy. You heard he was the individual ?
Mr. Harold. That is correct.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions?
If not, thank you very much.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Yerkes.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give
before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Yerkes. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM YERKES
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, please, sir ?
Mr. Yerkes. My name is Malcolm Yerkes. The name of my busi-
ness is the Arrow Overall Supply at 411 East Seven Mile Road,
Detroit.
The Chairman. You waive counsel, Mr. Yerkes ?
13140 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You spell your name Y-e-r-k-e-s, is that right ?
Mr. Yerkes. Right.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been in the overall supply busi-
ness?
Mr. Yerkes. About 21 years.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have an account at the Gib Bergstrom ?
Could you tell us when you first heard about the Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Yerkes. Well, this isn't the first time I had heard of them. We
had a call from the Gib Bergstrom account for service. Is that what
you are referring to ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
That is B-e-r-g-s-t-r-o-m ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And the first name is Gib ? G-i-b?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. They are now out of business ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was their business ?
Mr. Yerkes. An automobile dealer in Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. Pontiacs ?
Mr. Yerkes. Pontiac dealer ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You received a telephone call ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes. We had a telephone call to give them service.
Do you want me to proceed ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, please.
Mr. Yerkes. So, the driver was sent to measure the men for uni-
forms ?
Mr. Kennedy. They had already had another service, had they ?
Mr. Yerkes. They had Star Overall giving service and they wanted
to make a change. They were dissatisfied. And the driver was told
that they had decided that they were not going to make a change at
that time, they decided against it. So I sent another representative
and he was told
Mr. Kennedy. Let me just go back a minute. This Pontiac Co.
had had the Star Coverall Co. servicing their employees, is that right ?
Mr. Yerkes. Right.
Mr. Kennedy. You received a call that they were dissatisfied with
the service of Star Coverall ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And that they wanted to take on your company, is
that right ?
Mr. Yerkes. Correct.
Mr. Kennedy. So you sent somebody down to measure the em-
ployees, is that right ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. When your representative got down to Gib Berg-
strom, what was he told ?
Mr. Yerkes. He was told that the men had had a meeting and
voted to have Arrow Overall supply them, but the union had had an-
other meeting with the men and told them that they should not make
a change.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13141
Mr. Kennedy. Do you mean the men, the employees themselves,
had decided they wanted to go over with your company and then the
union came in, a union representative came in, and told them they
should not change, is that right ?
Mr. Yerkes. Correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand who the union had made this
approach by ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes. Herman Kierdorf .
Mr. Kennedy. K-i-e-r-d-o-r-f ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the business agent for the joint council 43 ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes ; I understand so.
Mr. Kennedy. Joint council 43, is that right ?
Mr. Yerkes. Well, I don't know the number, but he is a union agent.
Mr. Kennedy. So what did you do then ?
Mr. Yerkes. I sent another representative to see what we could
determine, get any more facts, and the representative was told sub-
stantially the same thing. So I called myself, and talked to the serv-
ice manager. He gave me the same story that the other two people
had been told.
Mr. Kennedy. That because of the interference or interest of the
union the company was not going to make a change ?
Mr. Yerkes. That is correct. The service manager did not feel that
he wanted to get into any controversy with the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you take any steps after that ?
Mr. Yerkes. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get in touch with Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes. I called Mr. Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ask him why he had interfered ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes. I asked him if he would not desist, and he in-
formed me that he was a very close friend of Angel o Meli, and he was
going to do everything possible to help him.
Mr. Kennedy. So what did you do after that, Mr. Yerkes? You
had lost this account because of the interference of the union ?
Mr. Yerkes. I hadn't lost the account. It represented a case of
interference.
Mr. Kennedy. Or you missed getting the account ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, and I had a meeting with a small group of my
competitors to see if we couldn't decide on some action to counteract
this sort of thing. We thought perhaps a delegation should call on
Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. When did all of this take place ?
Mr. Yerkes. Well, it was in the fall of 1957, 1 believe.
Mr. Kennedy. This is in October of 1957 ?
Mr. Yerkes. I can refer to this letter here. It was October of 1957,
yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I might point out, it was after the
hearing that we held here, and after Mr. Kierdorf appeared as a
witness, that this was going on. Go ahead and tell us what happened
then.
Mr. Yerkes. So we thought possibly we should send a delegation
to see Mr. Hoffa and explain this thing to him to see if some of it
couldn't be stopped. It was the concensus that perhaps that wouldn't
be effective, and that we should wait in the meantime
13142 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did yon decide to get in touch with Isaac Litwak?
Mr. Yerkes. I wrote Litwak, and I was jnst trying to see if I had
forgotten to mention anything-. We decided to get in touch with Mr.
Litwak, and I wrote him a letter, and had it delivered personally by
messenger.
Mr. Kennedy. He was president of the local 285 ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You say you wrote him a letter ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Or did you just write him a memorandum ?
Mr. Yerkes. Well, perhaps you would call it a memorandum.
The Chairman. I hand you here what appears to be a memo.
Mr. Yerkes. The copy was subpenaed and you probably have it in
front of you. It isn't addressed to anyone.
The Chairman. I hand you here a letter or a memorandum not ad-
dressed to anyone, but it appears to have been written by Arrow Over-
all Supply Co., Mr. Yerkes, and I hand you this photostatic copy and
ask you if you can identify it, please ?
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Yerkes. It is unusual — that is the copy.
The Chairman. Is that a photostatic copy of what you are referring
to as the letter you wrote him ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 1.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 1" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Yerkes. I must have been told to treat it in that manner, or I
would have addressed it otherwise.
The Chairman. Someone must have suggested to you that you write
it in that manner without addressing it to anyone.
Mr. Yerkes. It was delivered by messenger.
The Chairman. To whom %
Mr. Yerkes. Mr. Litwak's secretary.
The Chairman. It wasn't sent through the mail ?
Mr. Yerkes. No.
The Chairman. You had a messenger deliver it?
Mr. Yerkes. One of our employees, yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Counsel, you may read the pertinent
parts of the letter if you desire.
Mr. Salinger. It is dated October 18, 1957.
Arrow Overall had the business in the Gib Bergstrom location for approxi-
mately 15 years or more, prior to the time Frank McLaughlin bought it from
Harvey Mack. He brought Star Coverall in with him and when the business
was sold some months ago to Gib Bergstrom, Star continued their service .
Most of the personnel with Gib Bergstrom remember and liked our service.
Two weeks ago tonight they had a meeting and voted on laundry service as fol-
lows : 7 for Arrow Overall, 5 noncommittal, 1 for Star.
When our driver arrived Monday to measure the men, he was told that Mr.
Kierdorf held a meeting with all the men and told them that Star shoidd not be
dispensed with but given another chance of at least 30 days to straighten out
some of their complaints. The writer made a special trip and had these facts
confirmed.
So I don't think any one would have difficulty in getting this substantiated
further.
I talked to Mr. Kierdorf over the phone regarding this, and he informed me in
no uncertain terms that Mr. Meli was a personal friend and he felt obliged to
do them any favors that he could.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13143
In addition to the above, the writer has been told on more than one occasion
by another dealer that Star Coverall has convinced hiin that they have kept the
union out of his establishment and if ever he dispensed with their service they
would be unionized. In this case, the men in the garage have indicated a pref-
erence for our service many times.
The writer has also been informed through an authentic source that certain
organized dealerships have been told that if Star could have the overall busi-
ness, the union would take this into consideration during negotiations on a new
contract.
The unfairness of the actions indicated are obvious. Signed, Arrow Overall
Supply Co., M. Yerkes.
The Chairman. In other words, this particular Star Co. were using
the power of the union to direct business to this particular company,
and these union officials were cooperating with them, is that correct ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And the excuse given was that they were a friend
of this gangster, what is his name, Angelo Meli ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And therefore they w-ere cooperating with him?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The men were not permitted to have their way
about what they wanted and neither was management, is that correct ?
Mr. Yerkes. That was the case in this instance.
The Chairman. In other words, "We will keep the union out but
we are going to boss you, and if you don't let us boss you we will put
a union in," and no telling what else they would do, is that correct?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that the whole theme of it ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I have a f ew more questions.
Did you hear anything from this memorandum, then ?
Mr. Yerkes. I never had an acknowledgment.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Mr. Litwak ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes ; I believe I did.
Mr. Kennedy. You had a conference with Mr. Litwak ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that he was very upset as to what had
been going on ?
Mr. Yerkes. Litwak was upset, and I think he was.
Mr. Kennedy. The president of the union, local 285, was very con-
cerned as to what Mr. Kierdorf had been doing?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. This is the same Mr. Litwak wTho was negotiating
with the laundry owners back in 1949, and then the payment of a
sum of money wTas made according to Mr. Miller's testimony, and Mr.
Litwak then was forced to sign another contract. So Mr. Litwak
would appear to have been having some difficulty with certain of the
higher officials of the union.
Did Mr. Litwak suggest that you take any further steps about
contacting Mr. Hoffa himself ?
Mr. Yerkes. Mr. Litwak suggested that I wire Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you do so ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he make some suggestions as to what you might
put in the wire?
13144 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I hand you here what purports to be a photostatic
copy of a wire addressed to J. R. Hoffa, president of the joint coun-
cil 23, and I will ask you to examine this wire, this photostatic copy,
and state if you identify it as such.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, that is a copy.
The Chairman. That is a copy of the wire you sent ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You sent this, as I understand it, to Mr. Hoffa as
president of the joint council out there, at the suggestion of the presi-
dent of the local who was unhappy about the way they were operating ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Because he felt that this kind of practice was wrong
and he didn't like it ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And he suggested you send a wire to Hoffa ?
Mr. Yerkes. It was his suggestion ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. It was at his suggestion, and he helped you word
the wire ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That wire may be made exhibit No. 2, and you may
read it into the record.
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 2" for reference,
and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Salinger (reading) :
J. R. Hoffa, president, joint council 23, Trumbull Avenue. This is an official
protest concerning Herman Kierdorf's Star Coverall by using his influence
to prevent the recovery of business to the detriment of our company and drivers.
Would have communicated with you before but due to your very important
convention in Miami hesitated to bother you sooner. Congratulations on your
election to general president.
(Signed) Yerkes,
Arrow Overall Supply Go.
The Chairman. Is that wire dated ? It doesn't appear to be. Do
you have the original ? I cannot determine the date of it.
Mr. Yerkes. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. Kennedy. It appears around October 17, Mr. Chairman. I
believe it is October 17.
The Chairman. They have ascertained that it is October 17, 1957.
All right, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Yerkes, did you ever get a reply to that
telegram ?
Mr. Yerkes. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever hear from Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Yerkes. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you learn that he had taken any disciplinary
action against Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Yerkes. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never heard anything about it ?
Mr. Yerkes. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to put these dates
in. This is a very vital matter. It was just prior to this, within a
month, that Mr. Kierdorf appeared before the committee and we
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13145
went into some of his background. He must have left here immedi-
ately, gone back to Detroit, and performed this service for this com-
pany, because he appeared here in the last week of September.
Of course, Mr. Hoffa had appeared here earlier and had gone back
to Detroit, and obviously took no steps of disciplinary action against
Mr. Kierdorf when these matters were brought to his attention by
this employer, Mr. Yerkes. Now this is just to give the background.
Mr. Kierdorf will be a witness, and we will have more testimony about
him, but this is an extremely important point as to the background of
Mr. Kierdorf and the fact that he was brought into the union under
these circumstances by Mr. Hoffa.
As we developed the testimony at an earlier hearing, would you
tell us about the background of Mr. Kierdorf ?
The Chairman. Just so we can understand exactly what we are
doing. I am sure you understand it, but for the record and so those
who read may know exactly what is involved.
Mr. Salinger. Herman Kierdorf resides at 29068 Spoon Avenue,
Madison Heights, Mich. He has been convicted of felonies. In 1932
he received a 16 months' sentence at the United States Penitentiary at
Leavenworth, Kans., for impersonating a Government officer. In
1942 he was convicted of armed robbery in Ohio, and was sentenced
to the Ohio State Penitentiary at Columbus, Ohio, for a period of
from 10 to 25 years. He was paroled on October 2, 1948, into custody
of Detroit police officers who held him on a charge of armed robbery
in Detroit. This charge, however, was dismissed on April 5, 1949,
when the prosecuting witness could no longer be found.
Mr. Kierdorf came out of the penitentiary, according to his own
testimony, and went to work for Mr. Hoffa within a matter of a
month after he got out of the penitentiary. He was an organizer for
joint council 43 in Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. When did he start work? Does his record show
when he started working for Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Salinger. I don't believe I have that record available, but I
know he testified here that he went to see Mr. Hoffa after he came
back, and Mr. Hoffa put him to work about a month later.
The Chaikman. What year did he get out of the pen ?
Mr. Salinger. He was paroled on October 25, 1948, and he has
worked for the Teamsters since that time.
Mr. Kennedy. And he appeared before the committee here on Sep-
tember 24, 1957, and this incident occurred within a month of that
time, after he appeared here as a witness.
Now, after that, in conversations with any of the other overall peo-
ple or owners, did you learn that any of the others had these same kind
of problems and difficulties ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes ; there was considerable discussion within the in-
dustry.
Mr. Kennedy. About the pressure being applied by the union ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you give us some examples, for instance, Dick
Haigh?
Mr. Yerkes. Well, that was a personal experience. He is now out
of business, incidentally.
Mr. Kennedy. He was a Pontiac dealer?
13146 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Yerkes. Yes ; and he informed me on two occasions, and also
told substantially the same thing to one of my representatives that
Star Coverall were keeping the union out of his establishment and he
would like to give me the business, and the men favored us, but he
would prefer under the circumstances — or he thought under the cir-
cumstances— it would be very unwise for him to make a change.
The Chairman. How many times did you encounter that situation
among your customers, and your prospective accounts ?
Mr. Yerkes. Well, I believe, Senator, that is the only time I was
told.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Bill Root ? What company was he with ?
Mr. Yerkes. That is Bill Root's Chevrolet, is the name of his estab-
lishment, in the suburbs of Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he tell you?
Mr. Yerkes. He told me, or he wanted to know who Herman Kier-
dorf was, and he said he had an extended strike at his establishment
and it ran for several months, as I remember, and he told me that
the Star Coverall had told him that they could straighten out his
strike if he would give the coverall business to Star Coverall Supply.
Mr. Kennedy. You heard this on a number of different occasions?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. There was some discussion about this situation in
your business, was there not, out there ?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. In the industry ?
Mr. Yerkes. I had heard of other instances but it was just hearsay
and didn't relate to me personally, and so it was just third-hand
observations people made.
The Chairman. There was talk about it during that time?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, throughout the industry.
The Chairman. And people were concerned about it?
Mr. Yerkes. Very much, sir.
The Chairman. And discussed it among yourselves, and you got
together about your problem, and it was a common problem ?
Mr. Yerkes. Pretty much, yes.
The Chairman. With respect particularly to this Star Co. that was
moving in and the union was out high-pressuring and coercing business
for them?
Mr. Yerkes. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you also hear some conversation about the Jef-
ferson Chevrolet Co.?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us what you heard about that ?
Mr. Yerkes. I understand that Jefferson Chevrolet were prevailed
upon by Mr. Kierdorf and Mr. Lehr, of Star Coverall Co., to make a
change in their supply, but the business wasn't given to Star and it
was given to another company.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the name of the other company?
Mr. Yerkes. Michigan Industrial Laundry.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the company of Mr. Lu Gailex?
Mr. Yerkes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I think that that is all.
The Chairman. Are there any questions?
Thank you very much.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13147
Mr. Miller, counsel would like for you to return to the stand for a
moment.
TESTIMONY OF IRVIN PAUL MILLER— Resumed
Mr. Kennedy. There is just one matter that I forgot to mention
with Mr. Miller, or to ask him about. Did you receive any threats,
Mr. Miller, prior to coming down here to testify ?
Mr. Miller. Two.
Mr. Kennedy. You received two threats ?
Mr. Miller. Two phone calls.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us when they occurred ?
Mr. Miller. One was on the 3d of July, and one was on the 8th, and
the voice I didn't recognize. I was told that when I went to Wash-
ington to be very careful whose name I mentioned or who I in-
criminated.
Mr. Kennedy. You were told that on both occasions ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us when the telephone calls occurred?
Mr. Miller. One was in the evening and one was in the afternoon.
Mr. Kennedy. One was to your home ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Under what circumstances, can you tell us the whole
conversation ?
Mr. Miller. We had just come in and we had been out visiting. We
just came in, and, of course, the boys went to bed, and my wife was in
the bathroom, and I walked into the kitchen to pour a cup of coffee
when the phone rang. In fact, until right this minute, my wife
never knew that I got this call. There was no sense, and I didn't
believe in scaring her.
Mr. Kennedy. What was said ?
Mr. Miller. First he started out that he had been trying to get me
all evening and the way he started out I didn't recognize the voice,
but it seemed like it might be someone who knew me very well. I said,
"Well, we have been out visiting and we stopped to see some friends,
and we just got home."
So then he got serious, and he said, "Well, when you go to Washing-
ton you should be very careful whose name you mention or who you
incriminate."
Mr. Kennedy. Was it the same voice that called you the second
time ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir ; it was two different voices.
Mr. Kennedy. Was the second call at your home ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did they say then ?
Mr. Miller. He told me practically the same thing, to be very care-
ful whose name I mentioned and who I incriminated, and Mr. Salinger
called me shortly after that, and I didn't think anymore about it.
In fact I never mentioned it to him then and I think that I called
him back and told him later on. I got to thinking about it, and I
thought perhaps I should tell him. He was the man I was talking to.
Mr. Kennedy. You mentioned Mr. Licavoli, and Meli's name, and
Mr. Bommarito's name, and evidentally this didn't frighten you?
Mr. Miller. Well, we have to go sometime.
13148 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Well, it takes that kind of courage to fight these
crooks and murderers.
Mr. Miller. The only thing I don't want my wife and children
involved.
The Chairman. You will remain under your present subpena sub-
ject to being recalled at any time that the committee may desire to
interrogate you further, and with that understanding it will not be
necessary to resubpena you at this time.
Any effort to intimidate or threaten you in any way, I wish you
would report it to this committee immediately, and to the limit of our
power and authority we will act upon it and try to get cooperation
from other sources where they have more authority in that direction
than Ave have.
You are to be commended highly. The American people applaud
you for doing what you have done this morning, to come here and
tell us the truth and help us to find out where these rats, what holes
they are in, and expose them.
Thank you.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12: 10 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 p. m. the same day.
AFTERNOON SESSION
(At this point, the following members were present: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Ives, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The next wit-
ness is Mr. Joseph Warren. Come forward, please, sir. Be sworn.
You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate
select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Warren. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH WARREN
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Warren. My name is Joseph Warren. I live at Oxford, Mich.
I work for the Pontiac Retail Stores.
The Chairman. You waive counsel, do you, Mr. Warren ?
Mr. Warren. Yes ; I do.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Warren, as an automobile mechanic, you are
presently working for the Pontiac Retail Stores, Pontiac, Mich. ?
Mr. Warren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. From 1953 to 1958, you worked for other Pontiac
dealers ; is that right?
Mr. Warren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You were working for the Harvey Mack Pontiac Co. ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. It was purchased by Frank McLaughlin and re-
named the Chief Pontiac Co. ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Kennedy. And later became known as Gib Bergstrom ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD 13149
Mr. Kennedy. The Gib Bergstrom Pontiac Co. ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, that is the company we had testimony
about from the last witnesses this morning, the Gib Bergstrom Pon-
tiac Co., which formerly had these other names. At the time we are
interested in, it had the name of Gib Bergstrom.
In December of 1955, did Local 376 of the Teamsters Union win an
election ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that right ?
Mr. Warren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And the Teamster local became the bargaining agent
for the mechanics ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. That was known as the Chief Pontiac Co. at that
time?
Mr. Warren. At that time, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, were you named shop steward ?
Mr. Warren. Not at that particular time. I was named later.
Mr. Kennedy. Within a short time ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, had you been attempting
to get a contract signed with Frank McLaughlin ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir, from the time of the election.
Mr. Kennedy. Had that been unsuccessful ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, very much so.
Mr. Kennedy. He refused to sign a contract, although you were the
bargaining agent ; is that right ?
Mr. Warren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. This dragged out for a period of about 15 months?
Mr. Warren. Just about that ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What steps then were taken ?
Mr. Warren. Well, when it got to the point that — I should say it
did get to the point where he refused to even
Mr. Kennedy. Would you speak up a little louder ?
Mr. Warren. Refused to even discuss the contract. We met before
the labor board, and he still refused to discuss it.
At that time, the local 376 put up a picket line around the shop,
and the mechanics and workmen walked out.
Mr. Kennedy. Had the employees voted to go out on strike ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. The Teamsters Union officials decided they would
put the picket line up ; is that right ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. They placed the picket line, and you refused to go
to work ; is that right ?
Mr. Warren. That is right ; refused to cross the picket line.
The Chairman. May I ask at that point, were you consulted, you
who did the work, were you consulted about whether you wanted to
strike or not ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir. I was informed of it, and I was told to
inform the men that there would be a picket line at such and such
a time, and that, as good union members, they should refuse to work
behind the picket line.
13150 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Was that picket line called off ?
Mr. Warren. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. How long did it last ?
Mr. Warren. Two days, I believe. And Mr. Petroff told me that
he had been contacted by, I believe it was, Joe Lehr, of the Star
Coverall Co., and the business agent of the Restaurant Workers
Union.
Mr. Kennedy. That was Joe Lehr, of the Star Coverall Supply Co. ;
is that right ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. They had asked him and Kierdorf to meet
them for lunch to discuss the situation there. That afternoon, Mr.
Petroff told me that the picket line would be pulled off; that Mr.
Lehr and Mr. Davis, I believe his name was, would intercede in our
behalf with Frank McLaughlin and see that we got a contract, pro-
viding we would go back to work. The meeting was set up for
Mr. Kennedy. So, you were all ordered back to work then?
Mr. Warren. Yes. They removed the picket line and we all went
back to work.
Mr. Kennedy. Were the employees consulted about that ?
Mr. Warren. No.
Mr. Kennedy. They were just told to go back to work ?
Mr. Warren. They were just informed to go back.
Mr. Kennedy. What did Joe Lehr have to do with this ?
Mr. Warren. Well, as I understood it, he was a personal friend of
Frank McLaughlin, Jr.
Mr. Kennedy. Who ran the company or who owned the company ;
is that right ?
Mr. Warren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Why was he meeting and consulting with the union
officials about you going back to work ?
Mr. Warren. I don't know. I assume that McLaughlin had con-
tacted him and asked for help, or asked him to intercede. I don't
know.
Mr. Kennedy. But it was after the luncheon between Petroff, Kier-
dorf, and Lehr that you were ordered to go back to work; is that
right?
Mr. Warren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were told then that there would be an
arrangement made for Mr. McLaughlin to sign the contract ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How much time was he given to sign the contract ?
Did he ever sign the contract ?
Mr. Warren. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that ?
Mr. Warren. It became effective in February, I believe, of 1957 —
February or March.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that an actual contract, or was it just a recog-
nition agreement ?
Mr. Warren. Well, it was a recognition agreement with provision
for the company to pay health and welfare.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it what you wanted when you went out on
strike ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13151
Mr. Kennedy. Was it what you were after ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir ; it wasn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Why was this recognition agreement signed instead
of a contract ?
Mr. Warren. Well, it seems that was all we asked for.
Mr. Kennedy. Weren't you asking for more ?
Mr. Warren. The men wanted more, but Mr. Petroff thought they
should not push too hard at that particular time — he said — and we
settled for that, with the 60-day reopening clause.
Mr. Kennedy. They received a sweetheart arrangement, did they
not — the company ?
Mr. Warren. I suppose you could call it that. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not get any improvement in wages, hours,
or conditions other than the health and welfare, did you ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were trying to get those things at the time ?
Mr. Warren. Yes ; Ave were.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any arrangement made, for instance, on
vacations ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. None of those things were included ?
Mr. Warren. Nothing.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the company, McLaughlin, say that this would
be reopened at a later time; that there would be some discussion of
wages and hours?
Mr. Warren. Yes. He agreed to reopen negotiations in 60 clays.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that ever done ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir. He sold the company just before the re-
opening date.
Mr. Kennedy. To whom did he sell the company ?
Mr. Warren. To Gib Bergstrom.
Mr. Kennedy. Gib Bergstrom ?
Mr. Warren. To Gib Bergstrom.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, did you sign a contract with Gib
Bergstrom giving you wages and hours?
Mr. Warren. Well, before Gib Bergstrom would buy the contract,
I mean buy the business, he had a meeting with Mr. Kierdorf and Mr.
Petroff, and got from them a tentative agreement that we would not
discuss any economic matters for 6 months. With that provision,
then, he took over the contract as it existed.
(At this point, Senator Church entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us what happened after that, in
1957?
Mr. Warren. Well, at the end of the 6-month period, we met with
Gib Bergstrom, and all we gained from that was a provision for
overtime pay for all hourly rated employees, for all over 45 hours per
week.
Mr. Kennedy. Even at that rate, at that late time, you didn't get
everything you wanted ; is that right ?
Mr. Warren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, or during this period, were you being
serviced by the Star Overall Co. ?
Mr. Warren. From the time Frank McLaughlin took over, we
were.
13152 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. During this whole period of time that we are talking
about ; is that right ?
Mr. Warren. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any feeling of inadequacy on the part of
the employees with the Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Warren. Well, yes; there was, because the overall company
did not give us new uniforms for — well, it was more than a year.
And, with Arrow, we had been getting uniform changes every 6
months and good service; whereas, with Star, we were getting poor
service and still wearing the same uniforms we had been wearing for
more than a year. The men were quite dissatisfied and, consequently,
I went around and took a vote from all the men as to whether to
continue with Star or change back to Arrow.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a vote amongst the employees?
Mr. Warren. Yes ; we did. They voted in favor of Arrow.
The Chairman. How did you conduct the vote ?
Mr. Warren. I went to each man, personally.
The Chairman. How many men were there ?
Mr. Warren. I am not sure, but I think there would have been about
22 or 23 at that time.
The Chairman. Did you contact each one of them ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir ; I did.
The Chairman. Did any of them refuse to vote, so far as you know ?
Mr. Warren. Well, a few of them said it made no difference to them
whether we kept Star or changed.
The Chairman. So, you did not count them either way ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
The Chairman. How did you do it ; by petition or something that
they would sign ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir; I just took a piece of paper and went around
and asked each man what his desire was on the subject, and either he
put his name down or he did not put it down.
The Chairman. I hand you here a photostatic copy of a document
of some kind. I wish you would examine it and tell me if you know
what it is.
(The document was handled to the witness.)
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir, that is the copy of the paper that I had.
The Chairman. How many voted for Arrow and how many voted
for Star?
Mr. Warren. I believe it is 13 for Arrow, one for Star, and 6 with
no preference.
The Chairman. You indicated the number with no preference ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. The 13 that signed for Arrow constituted a majority
of the workers ?
Mr. Warren. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. With only one dissenting vote. The other six took
a position that either way was all right with them.
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That petition may be made exhibit No. 3.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 3" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. After you had that vote, what did you do?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13153
Mr. Warren. Well, nothing happened for a couple of days.
The Chairman. What did you do with this ?
Mr. Warren. What did I do with that ? I turned it into the service
manager.
The Chairman. To who?
Mr. Warren. To the service manager. And told him that we would
like to go back to Arrow.
He said he would handle it.
The Chairman. You had no particular choice as to who did the
work, just so you got the service ; did you ?
Mr. Warren. That is all we were interested in.
The Chairman. You had no interest in who owned Star or who
owned Arrow ?
Mr. Warren. I didn't even know for sure who owned Star or who
owned Arrow. I knew Mr. Lehr was connected with Star, but for
Arrow, I didn't know. I just knew we had gotten real good service
from Arrow and we had not from Star, and we were paying the same
money. I didn't see why we should accept inferior service and clothes
for the same money.
The Chairman. This problem all originated with the men them-
selves, I mean this program %
Mr. Warren. That is right.
The Chairman. It wasn't Arrow Co. employees or representatives
around agitating ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir. Originally it was strictly within the men
themselves.
The Chairman. It was strictly their own idea because they felt
they were not getting service that they were entitled to, and were not
getting comparable service to what they had been having ?
Mr. Warren. That is correct, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. This may have been covered when I was unable to
be here this morning, so your answer, I hope, can be rather brief.
Who pays the cost of providing uniforms and laundering them ?
Just how does it work ?
Just answer that briefly.
Mr. Warren. Well, at our place at least, the company paid half and
the employee paid half.
Senator Curtis. So the employees were interested because of half
of the cost ?
Mr. Warren. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. How was it handled, the company paid the whole
bill and charged half of it, or deducted it from your pay ?
Mr. Warren. As far as I know, the company paid the whole bill;
yes ; because it was deducted from our checks each week.
Senator Curtis. And the workers' interest, then, was twofold. It
was costing them money for part of it
Mr. Warren. Correct.
Senator Curtis. And the other matter in which they were inter-
ested in was whether or not they had good uniforms and good service,
and occasionally new ones ?
Mr. Warren. That is right, sir.
21243— 58— pt. 35 3
13154 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you in fact change over then to the Arrow ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir; we did not.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened ?
Mr. Warren. Well, Mr. Lehr and Mr. Kierdorf came over.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Warren. He is the business agent for local 376.
Mr. Kennedy. Of the Teamsters?
Mr. Warren. That was our local, yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that your local ?
Mr. Warren. That is, sir, yes, sir. They came over and asked me
about it and what was going on and why, and I explained to them that
we were not getting the service we thought we should have and, con-
sequently, we wanted to change laundry companies. Mr. Kierdorf did
most of the talking. He told me that Mr. Lehr had been a good union
member for a number of years, and that he would like us to continue
with Star; that Star was a new company, just coming up, and that
Arrow was a big company, well established; and would appreciate us
considering staying on with Star. Mr. Lehr wanted to know specifi-
cally what was the complaint and why we wanted to change.
Mr. Kennedy. Why was it the interest of a union official as to what
coverall company you should have?
Mr. Warren. I have no idea, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you think that this was a questionable activity
on the part of Mr. Kierdorf at the time ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, I did. I didn't see where it was any of his con-
cern one way or the other, because he was supposed to be representing
the men and not the laundry company, to me.
In fact, it seemed to me that if he was going to show preference, he
should want us to get the most for our money, being one of our busi-
ness agents.
Mr. Kennedy. When he spoke to you then, did you change to Ar-
row or did you keep Star?
Mr. Warren. Well, we kept Star. They asked me to recheck with
the men and see if they would continue with Star providing Star
would give us new clothes immediately and guarantee good service,
such as replacing missing buttons and whatnot. In other words, if
they would give us as good service as we could expect from someone
else, would we continue on with Star.
So I took a survey of the men. I did not make any record of that
one. They were all agreeable to the fact that — well, we liked the
driver for Star. He was just a nice guy. He helped us out as much
as he could.
So the men were all agreeable to sticking with Star, provided we
could get the service we thought we should have.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you have stuck with Star if it had not been
for the interest and interference of Kierdorf ?
Mr. Warren. Well, I doubt it because as far as we were concerned,
our minds were already made up, that we were going to switch to
Arrow because — well, it did not do us any good to complain about the
service of Star. It continued the same.
Mr. Kennedy. It was only on the intercession then of Kierdorf
that you retained Star, is that right?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13155
Mr. Warren. That is right. When he promised all we could get
from another laundry company, we just stuck with them.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand that Kierdorf and Lehr were
very close ?
Mr. Warren. Will, I did get the impression that they were pretty
good friends because — well, his name came up frequently. As I said,
he sat in on meetings with McLaughlin.
At one time, Kierdorf made a remark, as he lit up a cigar, that Lehr
was smoking better cigars these days, or something to that effect.
Mr. Kennedy. The point was made that Mr. Kierdorf was a busi-
iness agent for local 376. Although he received some of his expenses
from local 376, actually he is on the payroll of joint council 43.
So he works directly under Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Warren. The reason I assumed he was the business agent, I
guess, was that he sat in on all of our negotiations.
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct. He is loaned out and has been
loaned out to local 376 in this organizational drive. That is how he
gets involved in these matters. But actually he is on the payroll of
the joint council, under the supervision and control of Mr. James
Hoffa.
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. So it was the intercession on two different occasions
early in 1957, the intercession by Mr. Lehr, with the friendship of
Mr. Kierdorf, that brought about the settling of a strike, initially,
and the signing of a recognition agreement which was nothing more
than a sweetheart contract, that was the first tiling in early 1957
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And the second was the interference by Mr. Kier-
dorf in the overall contract in late 1957, of having you stay with Star
Coverall rather than change to Arrow Coverall as the employees
wished to have.
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. In what way, if any, did management of your
employing company take part in determining who had the uniform
contract and the laundry ?
Mr. Warren. Well, I don't know. Up until we got the union in,
of course, I presume that the company decided strictly on their own
as to what laundry company to deal with.
Senator Curtis. Who did they have then?
Mr. Warren. We had Arrow.
Senator Curtis. That was the more satisfactory one ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir ; it was.
Senator Curtis. Did management get into the controversy over
keeping Star ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Who do you think was responsible for getting
started there in the first place I
Mr. Warren. Frank McLaughlin, Jr.
Senator Curtis. Who was he ?
Mr. Warren. He was the man who brought out Harvey Mack, when
it became Chief Pontiac. He brought Star in with him. We had
no voice in the matter whatsoever.
13156 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. He came in with another company ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And started out with Star?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did management protest when you wanted to get
rid of Star?
Mr. Warren. No, sir. By that time the place had changed hands
again and Mr. Bergstrom did not seem to mind as long as the money
was the same.
Senator Curtis. And so far as you know, the cost would be substan-
tially the same to the company in either place?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
It did not change when we switched from Arrow to Star.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have the recognition agreement
here which we have been discussing. I would like to have that made
an exhibit.
The Chairman. Would you recognize a copy of this recognition
agreement that you refer to ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I present to you what purports to be a copy of it
and ask you to examine it and state if you identify it as such.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir ; it is.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 4.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 4" for refer-
ence, and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. Exhibit 4 is for reference.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have here an affidavit from Mr.
McLaughlin.
The Chairman. This affidavit, without objection, may be made
exhibit No. 5.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. Counsel, you may read the pertinent excerpts.
Mr. Salinger (reading) :
In December 1955, local 376 of the Teamsters Union won an election held to
determine whether or not they were the bargaining agents for my mechanics
at the Chief Pontiac Go. From that time until early 1957 I negotiated inter-
mittently with the union group without arriving at a contract. At that time,
my mechanics walked off the job and pickets appeared representing local 376 of
the Teamsters Union. The day that the pickets appeared was a Friday and they
marched in front of my establishment during the morning and for a short
period after lunch and then they went away.
The mechanics returned to work on Saturday. On Monday the mechanics
appeared for work at 8 a. m., worked until 10 a. in., when they walked off the
job again and the pickets remained until lnneh time.
The pickets did not come back after lunch that day. The men returned to work
on Tuesday morning at 8 o'clock, and walked off the job again at 10 o'clock when
the pickets reappeared. Either on Monday or Tuesday I received a telephone
call from a man named Joseph Lehr, with whom I had no previous acquaintance.
Lehr identified himself as "King Lehr" and said he was Vince Meli's partner in
the Star Coverall Supply Co. Mr. Lehr told me he had heard through one of his
drivers that we were having union problems. He said he knew the fellows down
at the union and thought he could help us and I told him to go ahead and try.
lie subsequently called back and said that the problem could be solved if the
ChUef Pontiac Co. would sign a recognition contract with the union. My attorney,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13157
Mr. William Coughlin, and I already had agreed between ourselves that we-
would sign a recognition agreement if necessary, so I told Mr. Lehr that this
proposal was acceptable. At the time of this call, we set a meeting for a few
days later. A little while before the appointed meeting time, Mr. Lehr came to
my office and introduced himself. We chatted for about 10 minutes, following,
which Herman Kierdorf and Eddie Petroff of the Teamsters Union and two union
stewards, Joseph Warren and George Duldulao, as well as a fifth man who had
a union connection which I cannot recall, arrived in my office.
After some exchange of conversation, Lehr left my office. The recognition
agreement was given to me at that time and whether I signed it then or after
my attorney looked it over, I cannot presently recall.
The Chairman. Let me ask you about those pickets.
Were they employees there in that garage ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
The Chairman. They were outsiders ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
They were business agents of 376.
The Chairman. Were they strangers to you ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
Well, of course, Mr. Kierdorf was there, Mr. Petroff, Wilfred Mott,
and another man that I did not know, Eddie someone. I don't know
what his last name was.
The Chairman. Did any of the employees in this shop picket?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you with the Teamsters at the present time ?
Mr. Warren. No ; I am not. I am with the UAW.
The Chairman. I did not understand the last question. You are
not any longer a union member ?
Mr. Warren. No, sir.
I am employed by the Pontiac retail store which is covered by the
UAW.
The Chairman. You are now a UAW member ?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are there any questions?
If not, thank you. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Allan Rosenberg.
The Chairman. Be sworn, please. You do solemnly swear the evi-
dence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the
truth, the w7hole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ALLAN ROSENBERG
The Chairman. Will you state your name, your place of residence,
and your business or occupation ?
Mr. Rosenberg. My name is Allan Rosenberg. I live at Oak Park,
Mich. I am a partner in Auto City Coverall Supply, Detroit.
The Chairman. You are a partner in what ?
Mr. Rosenberg. The Auto City Coverall Supply Co.
The Chairman. Do you waive counsel, Mr. Rosenberg?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. This company of yours was formed in 1952 : is that
right? J
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
13158 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Your father, who is now deceased, was for many
years the owner of the Jefferson Linen Supply Co. ; is that right ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Right.
Mr. Kennedy. That is in Detroit, Mich. ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. When the Star Coverall Supply Co. was first going
into business, did you meet Mr. Joe Lehr ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversations with him at that
time?
Mr. Rosenberg. Well, I
Mr. Kennedy. You had conversations with him a number of differ-
ent times ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes. Joe Lehr worked for my father before he
went into the coverall business for himself.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he speak to you at all about the backing that
the new company, the Star Coverall, was receiving?
Mr. Rosenberg. As far as names go, no.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, what did he say to you?
Mr. Rosenberg. He just said that he should have went in the linen
business instead of the coverall business.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he mention any particular linen business that he
should have been in rather than the coverall business ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No ; he did not mention the name.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he mention anything about the Melrose Linen
Co.?
Mr. Rosenberg. No ; he did not mention it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you see any of the backers of the Star Coverall
in their office? People that you understood were the backers of the
Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Rosenberg. I saw relatives, but whether they were backers or
not, I did not know.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you see in the Star Coverall office ? Who
were some of the people ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Vincent's father, father-in-law, and cousin.
Mr. Kennedy. Who were they ?
Mr. Rosenberg. The father-in-law, I believe, is Santo Perrone.
Mr. Kennedy. Santo Perrone ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes. And Angelo Meli, I believe, his father. It
was right when they first went in.
Mr. Kennedy. And you saw his cousin, Vincent Meli ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you understand from the conversations that you
had with Mr. Lehr, that these were some of the individuals which were
backing the Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No, not backing, no.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, what did you understand they had to do with
the Star Coverall Co.?
Mr. Rosenberg. Just helping get businss. But as far as backing
them, I know that
Mr. Kennedy. They were just helping them get business?
Mr. Rosenberg. They were equal partners.
Mr. Kennedy. You understand that Santo Perrone and Angelo Meli
were helping Star Coverall get business from the conversations ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13159
Mr. Kosenberg. Well, would get them a stop here and there; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. We have a little bit of background of Santo Perrone,
Mr. Salinger?
Mr. Salinger. Santo Perrone was born in Alcamo, Sicily, in 1895.
He has three children ; his daughter, Pauline Perrone, is married to
Vincent Meli.
He was admitted to United States citizenship in Wayne County,
Mich., on November 13, 1924. He came to the United States in 1915
and immediately went to Detroit, Mich., where, according to the infor-
mation we have, he went to work for the Detroit Stove Works as a core-
maker, along with his brother, Jasper Perrone. During the next
15 years he and his brother were alleged to have smuggled aliens across
the Detroit River and gotten them jobs as stoveworkers.
During this period, Perrone was also involved in bootlegging and
received a 6-month sentence and $400 fine for violation of the Na-
tional Prohibition Act. In addition to that, he has been arrested
a number of times, starting back in 1919, up to the year 1954; in
1951 he was arrested for conspiracy to interfere with the forma-
tion of a labor organization and fined $1,000 and given 2 years'
probation.
Mr. Kennedy. That was for union busting, was it ?
Mr. Salinger. Yes. In connection with the Briggs Manufacturing
Co. In testimony before the Kefauver committee it was established
that Santo Perrone was engaged in union-busting activities for the
Briggs Manufacturing Co., in return for which they awarded a
lucrative scrap contract to his son-in-law, Carl Rencla.
He was also active as a strikebreaker at the Detroit Stove Works
where he worked for some period of time and was eventually awarded
the salvage contract for that company.
He admitted that his net earnings in this contract amounted to as
high as $5,000 per month. In 1942 Santo Perrone, along with his
brother Jasper and Matthew Perrone, were arrested for violation
of the Federal Firearms Act.
There was a fire in the lockers of the Detroit Stove Works and
the firemen discovered guns in a locker, three loaded pistols in a
locker, which belonged to the Perrone brothers, as well as 25 feet of
dynamite fuse.
In 1945 Perrone was arrested and held as a police witness regard-
ing the murder of Lydia Thompson. A note was found on the per-
son of Lydia Thompson stating that if anything happened to her,
they should pick up Perrone and question him. However, he was
never convicted in this murder.
Mr. Kennedy. He has been arrested in a number of other murders ?
Mr. Salinger. I believe that is the only murder case. No; he was
arrested for murder in 1920 also.
Senator Curtis. Is Mr. Perrone identified as being affiliated with
any labor organization ?
Mr. Salinger. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Has he had income from them ?
Mr. Kennedy. No. He was involved and convicted for labor-
union busting back in 1951, and was connected, as this witness has
testified with this particular company that we are interested in.
Senator Curtis. Is he the same Santo Perrone that was at the
Apalachin conference ?
13160 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Salinger. He was not at the Apalachin conference.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a witness that we have been looking for.
Also, Mr. Chairman, we have been unable to find Mr. Santo Perrone.
Senator Ives. May I raise a question there, Mr. Chairman?
Is he a member of the Mafia ?
The Chairman. I don't know whether we have that information or
not.
Senator Ives. I am asking the counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, Senator, he is a member of the syndicate or
the Mafia or whatever the organization might be called. He is a
member and a very prominent member of the underworld. Whether
it is called the Mafia or (he syndicate.
Senator Eves. I don't care what yon call it. We used to call it
the Black Hand when 1 was a kid.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, he is a member of it.
Senator Ives. Is he related to anybody that was at the Apalachin
conference ? 1 lave you anything on that?
M r. Kin m.dv. Well, we can bring out our chart.
Senator Ives. Never mind that, if you don't know.
Mr. Salinger. Not directly, Senator.
Senator Ives. There is so much relationship among all these birds,
I am just wondering.
Mr. Kennedy, lie is related to people who are related.
Senator Ives. All right. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Tessmer,
of the Jefferson Chevrolet Co., this year?
Mr. Eosenberg. Yes, in February of this year.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate those to the committee?
Mr. Rosenberg. We supplied Jefferson Chevrolet with coveralls,
and I believe it was the beginning of February he told me that he
would have to quit service with us, that he would have to go to another
coverall company.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he tell you as to why ?
Mr. Rosenberg. He gave me no definite reason.
Mr. Kennedy. How long had you been serving them ?
Mr. Rosenberg. I would say about 5 years.
Mr. Kennedy. He did not give you any reason for it ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No. He told me he had to quit for reasons of his
own.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he give you any ideas as to why he was quitting?
Did he say it was poor service ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No, it was not poor service.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he tell you it was not poor service ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he give you any idea as to why he was leaving
your account, giving up your account?
Mr. Rosenberg. No.
Mr. Kennedy. No idea at all ?
Mr. Rosenberg. He did not give me any idea, no. He just told
me he had to quit.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he reluctant to make the change ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes, very.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he was unhappy that he had to ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13161
Mr. Rosenberg. Right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say there was somebody putting pressure on
him to do so ?
Mr. Rosenberg. He said there was a good reason why he had to
quit.
Mr. Kennedy. Did lie indicate to you what the good reason might
be?
Mr. Rosenberg. No; no definite reason.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he give you sort of an indirect reason, you
might say ? Could you gather what the reason was ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Well, there are many reasons I could gather, but
nothing definite.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you ?
Mr. Rosenberg. All he told me is that, eventually, I will have the
business back.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to you as to the kind of pressure
that he had been undergoing ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Well, at the time, he was nervous. Other than
that, nothing definite.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he tell you what kind of trouble he was in ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say he had met somebody who could solve
his trouble?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes; he told me he had met somebody who could
help him out.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate who that was ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate what kind of trouble it was?
Mr. Rosenberg. No ; he did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you find out at that time, or around that time,
whether he was in any kind of difficulty ?
Mr. Rosenberg. I checked around, and the most I found was that
there was union organizing going on in the shop. But that was on
my own.
Mr. Kennedy. That was checking that you did yourself ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You found that the union had been attempting to
organize his shop ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes. It was not the first time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did it occur to you that it might be that he was
having trouble with the union and that he had found an individual
who could settle that trouble?
Mr. Rosenberg. I thought of it, and that is about as far
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the conclusion you reached ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Well, they also got a better price.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he was under pressure; that he would like
to keep you; that he was in difficulty. We are just trying to de-
termine what that difficulty and trouble was.
Mr. Rosenberg. No ; he did not let me know.
Mr. Kennedy. The only trouble you could find out was the union
difficulties ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Right. I did not ask him too much. I did not
ask him too many questions.
13162 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Why? Why would not you be concerned?
Mr. Rosenberg. I was very concerned.
The Chairman. Why didn't you ask him more about it?
Mr. Rosenberg. I asked, and he told me that I will get the account
back, and that is all he would tell me.
The Chairman. Were you under apprehensions about what the
real trouble was ?
Mr. Rosenberg. I beg your pardon ?
The Chairman. You had a pretty good idea what the real trouble
was, anyhow, didn't you ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Not then, no.
The Chairman. You did not then ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No.
The Chairman. Did you later come to some conclusion about it?
Mr. Rosenberg. I had an idea later on.
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. He did say that the reason he was changing was
because of the fact that he had found an individual who could solve
his problems ; is that right?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And did he also indicate to you that, if he did not
make the change in the coverall business, there would be no account
there to service whatsoever* that he would be out of business?
Mr. Rosenberg. He said, I may decide to close the doors."
Mr. Kennedy. He would be out of business if he did make the
change ; is that right ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all, for now.
The Chairman. Are there any questions ?
If not, thank you.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Tessmer.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give
before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF RAY TESSMER
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Tessmer. Ray Tessmer, 2130 East Jefferson, Detroit, Mich.,
president of Jefferson Chevrolet.
The Chairman. All right, sir. Do you have counsel, or do you waive
counsel ?
Mr. Tessmer. No ; I am by myself.
The Chairm an. You waive counsel ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. You are the owner of the Jefferson Chevrolet Co. ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you had that company ?
Mr. Tessmer. Since 1953.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13163
Mr. Kennedy. You have Michigan Industrial Laundry now, that
does your laundry ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. It does the overalls ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you had them ?
Mr. Tessmer. Sometime in March.
Mr. Kennedy. Whom did you have prior to that ?
Mr. Tessmer. Auto City Coverall.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the name of it ?
Mr. Tessmer. Auto City Coverall.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you spell it ?
Mr. Tessmer. A-u-t-o
Mr. Kennedy. Auto City Coverall ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you change ?
Mr. Tessmer. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you change to Michigan Industrial Laun-
dry?
Mr. Tessmer. Why did I change? Because I got a better price
and a better deal.
Mr. Kennedy. You weren't in any difficulties at the time, were you ?
Mr. Tessmer. No, not at the particular time. In fact, I never was
in any difficulty.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kosenberg indicated, the prior witness, that you
were having some trouble, and that was the reason that you changed.
Mr. Tessmer. Well, no ; that was not the prime reason.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that one of the reasons ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. It did not play any part ?
Mr. Tessmer. I did not have to change, because there were two
other coverall companies that wanted my business. In fact, Arrow
has been after me.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell Mr. Kosenberg that that was the rea-
son?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. So, his testimony is completely incorrect ?
Mr. Tessmer. I never told him no such thing.
Mr. Kennedy. Never anything like that ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You weren't having any trouble at the time ?
Mr. Tessmer. I was having a little union trouble. They were trying
to organize my men, but I never belonged to no union.
Mr. Kennedy. You were having a little union trouble at that time ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right ; in October.
Mr. Kennedy. In October 1957 ?
Mr. Tessmer. Between October and November ; that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Somebody had been trying to organize you ?
Mr. Tessmer. No ; my men went up to the union ; they had a meet-
ing at the hall, and I don't know — 10 or 12 of them paid their dues
in. One day Mr. Petroff came in and, with three of my men, and
said, "Your men want to join the union. They told me you are a
good fellow; they like you; we ain't got nothing against you, but
your service manager they don't like, so they want to join the union."
13164 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
In the first place, I told him I would never join the union; before
I would join the union I would take and close the shop.
Mr. Kennedy. This was the end of October ?
Mr. Tessmer. That was along in October-November, along in there.
I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened then ?
Mr. Tessmer. So, he said, "Well, we want to bargain with you.
When can we talk about it?" I said, "Well, I wouldn't do any
bargaining unless I got hold of my attorney." I couldn't get hold of
my attorney at that time, so I said, "As soon as I get hold of him, I
will let you know."
This went on for, I don't know, probably 3 or 4 weeks, or maybe a
month, and then my service manager fired one of the boys in my
place. So then Mr. Petroff called me and wanted to know if I knew
why the boy was fired, and I said, "No," which I didn't at that par-
ticular time, "but 1 will take and find out."
He said "You take and find out why he was fired." I did. I got
hold of the service manager, and I checked with him, and he said,
"Well, the boy used to work on the lubrication rack, and we needed
a man on nights for relining brakes, and he went on the night shift.
Then he decided he wanted to go back on the lubrication rack. We
did not have enough work for him." So, my service manager said
to him, "You either stay on nights or we don't need you."
Petroff said he would call me back in about an hour or so. He
did. He called me back. Maybe it was a couple of hours, I think.
So then he took and — I told him what the story was, just like I told
you, and he said, "Where is" — I can't think of the mechanic's name
right now — and I said, "Well, he is out in the shop somewhere."
I called him in. Petroff talked to him on the phone and he must
have said, "Well, you are going to have to work nights or else they
can't use you." That was the end of it.
Mr. Kennedy. That was the end ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You never had any more trouble with the union ?
Mr. Tessmer. I didn't have any more trouble with the union until — -
well, I didn't have any trouble,
Mr. Kennedy. You did not have any trouble at all ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. So, Mr. Kosenberg is all mixed up ?
Mr. Tessmer. I did not have any trouble with them at all. Still,
as far as that goes, I still don't have any trouble.
Mr. Kennedy. You just had these two conversations with Petroff;
is that right ?
Mr. Tessmer. Up until then, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have some conversations later on ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes. I had one — no; that is the only time I ever
talked to him on the telephone up until that time.
Mr. Kennedy. After that, did you have some conversations ?
Mr. Tessmer. One other time.
Mr. Kennedy. What was that?
Mr. Tessmer. I went into the, where we eat, diner ; I walked in there
and Mr. Petroff and Joe Lehr
Mr. Kennedy. Joe Lehr ? Who is Joe Lehr ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13165
Mr. Tessmer. That is right — and I can't think of the other fellow's
name from the union.
Mr. Kennedy. Herman Kierdorf ?
Mr. Tessmee. That is right. I went in to eat, and they were setting
in the office there, and he called me over there.
Mr. Kennedy. Wait a minute. Let's find out where this is.
Mr. Tessmer. Over at Red Kemp's.
Mr. Kennedy. Eed Kemp's?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. You happened to go in there for lunch one day ?
Mr. Tessmer. I went in for lunch.
Mr. Kennedy. Petroff, Kierdorf, and Joe Lehr ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Who were you having lunch with that day ?
Mr. Tessmer. I wasn't having lunch with anybody. I just walked
in there myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You just happened to go in for lunch I
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Nobody arranged it ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right. They called me over and I walked
over and sat down and had lunch with them. The only thing, they
told me, "We don't want to have no trouble with you. You have a
good bunch of boys over there. They all like you. Let this boy work."
I said, "All right, if he will do his work, I will let him work, and if he
wouldn't do his work, I am not going to keep him."
The only reason they wanted me to keep him on there was that my
men were pressuring them, and if they didn't take and represent my
men another union would.
So I said, "Well, if he wants to do his work, I will keep him on."
Mr. Kennedy. What was Joe Lehr doing at that lunch? Was he
a labor-relations consultant for you?
Mr. Tessmer. Xo. Joe Lehr came in to talk to me before. In
fact, he wanted me to take and give my coverall business, if I could
help another company out.
Mr. Kennedy. He was interested in you switching your coverall
business ?
Mr. Tessmer. No. He asked me if I could give the business to
Nancy Dawson.
Mr. Kennedy. Dawson?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you happen to know Joe Lehr ?
Mr. Tessmer. Ernie Grissom sent him over to me.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is Ernie Grissom ?
Mr. Tessmer. He is a Chevrolet dealer from Mount Clemens. He
is a friend of mine.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did Ernie Grissom send him to you ?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, he just sent him over to me to get the coverall
business, help Nancy get the coverall business.
Mr. Kennedy. Why could Joe Lehr do that ?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, just as a friend. No particular reason that
I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know Joe Lehr before ?
Mr. Tessmer. No, I did not, until he came over and introduced
himself.
13166 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Had you talked to Ernie Grissom about it?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You talked to Ernie Grissom ?
Mr. Tessmer. At our Chevrolet meetings we talked.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you told him about the labor difficulties you
were having ?
Mr. Tessmer. Not particularly. We talked about all labor unions.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you mention specifically that the union was
trying to organize your employees ?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, I just said that my boys were joining the
union, that is right, and he said "I think Joe Lehr knows the boys at
the union."
Mr. Kennedy. So he said Joe Lehr had some friends amongst the
union ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right. And he said he would
Mr. Kennedy. Send him over ?
Mr. Tessmer. Send him over and see if he could do anything.
Well at that particular time I did not have no trouble.
Mr. Kennedy. You were not having any trouble. Did Joe Lehr
come anyway?
Mr. Tessmer. No, I did not have any trouble.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Joe Lehr come then ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, he came over.
Mr. Kennedy. What conversation did you have ?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, that is all. He just said, "Well, I will take
and talk to them."
Mr. Kennedy. Had you received a telegram from the union at that
time?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. You heard from the union ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right. I got a telegram.
Mr. Kennedy. You forgot to tell that.
Mr. Tessmer. Yes.
The Chairman. I hand you here what purports to be the telegram
to which you have referred, dated November 1. I guess it is 1957.
Mr. Kennedy. 1957, Senator.
The Chairman. I ask you to examine this telegram and state if that
is the telegram you received.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, that is the one I received, yes.
The Chairman. It is.
That may be made exhibit No. 6.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 6" for refer-
ence, and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. It reads :
Jefferson Chevrolet Co. : Local 376, Teamsters Union, represents a majority
or more of your garage and service employees for collective-bargaining purposes.
Demand for recognition as bargaining agent is hereby made. Your immediate
reply is expected, and action by you against any union member will be con-
sidered an unfair labor practice and may result in strike action against you.
Was that before you got in touch with Mr. Grissom and this other
man came to see you ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13167
The Chairman. So you did have a little pressure on you, didn't
you?
There was beginning to be a little pressure.
Mr. Tessmer. Well, if you want to call it pressure, but I actually
did not recognize the union or did not have anything to do with them.
The Chairman. They were having something to do with you, were
they not?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, that is the first time I ever knew anything
about it.
The Chairman. So it was after that that this other fellow came
to see you and everything began to work ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you get ahold of Ernie Grissom ?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, I talked to him several times at meetings. At
no particular time did I get ahold of him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get ahold of him shortly after you got the
telegram ?
Mr. Tessmer. No. To be honest, I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. What was your reaction when you got the telegram ?
Mr. Tessmer. I just did not do anything about it.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not ?
Mr. Tessmer. No. In fact, to be honest, I threw it in the waste-
basket.
Mr. Kennedy. You were not concerned about it ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not get in touch with Ernie Grissom ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get in touch with anyone ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. May I ask Mr. Salinger a question, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. What time did you receive this telegram ?
Mr. Tessmer. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Have we determined from the Western Union Co.
the time that this telegram was delivered ?
Mr. Salinger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the time the telegram was delivered ?
Mr. Salinger. Between 1 : 54 p. m. and 3 : 02 p. m. on November 1,
1957 ; that is the best they could tell us.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you find from an examination of the telephone
calls of Mr. Tessmer that lie made any telephone calls to Mr. Grissom
on that day ?
Mr. Salinger. There are two phone calls on November 1, 1957, from
the Jefferson Chevrolet Co. to the Ernie Grissom Chevrolet Co. The
first was made at 12 : 01 p. m., lasting 2 minutes, and the second was
made at 3 : 15 p. m., and lasted for 2 minutes.
Mr. Tessmer. I don't recall, to be honest.
Mr. Kennedy. You did, in fact, contact Mr. Grissom on that day ?
Mr. Tessmer. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that Mr. Grissom sent Mr. Joe Lehr
over to see you on that ?
Mr. Tessmer. Right.
13168 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And he came on the very day you received the
telegram ?
Mr. Tessmer. I don't remember that, to be honest.
Mr. Kennedy. You remember that.
Mr. Tessmer. No ; to be honest, I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. Don't you remember you were very concerned when
you received the telegram, you were very worried ?
Mr. Tessmer. I probably was concerned. I will agree on that.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that you contacted Mr. Grissom on the
very day and he arranged for Joe Lehr to come to see you on November
1?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, I don't recall it. I will be honest.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell us the conversation you had with Joe Lehr
when you first saw him.
Mr. Tessmer. With Joe Lehr \
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Tessmer. Well, the only thing T can recall
Mr. Kennedy. He was sent to you by Mr. Grissom, was he not, be-
cause of this labor problem ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes. that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say? What conversation did he have
with you about your labor difficulties ?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, all I can remember is that he told me he would
help me out, that he knew Petroff and — I mean— yes, Petroff.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, Kierdorf, as I recall, was not brought into it
at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he knew Mr. Petroff ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. During the same conversation, did he tell you he
would like you to change your coverall business and give it to Nancy
Dawson ?
Mr. Tessmer. Not at that particular time, but later on I think he
brought Miss Dawson over and asked if I would give her the coverall
business.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't he discuss the union difficulties and the shift-
ing of your coverall business on that first interview ?
Mr. Tessmer. No, not at the first interview, no. That came later
when he brought Miss Nancy
Mr. Kennedy^. All right.
Did he discuss it with you immediately after that ?
Mr. Tessmer. No. Well, he brought it over and said
Mr. Kennedy. Within a short time ?
Mr. Tessmer. I don't know just how long.
Mr. Kennedys Well, within a short time.
Mr. Tessmer. That's right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he told you he wanted you to change, to give
the coverall business to Nancy Dawson ?
Mr. Tessmer. Right.
Senator Curtis. Who did Nancy Dawson represent? What
laundry ?
Mr. Kennedy. The Dawson Industrial Laundry.
Senator Curtis. Did that laundry have any tieups with union
leaders ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13169
Mr. Kennedy. We are going to develop that. Probably we
wouldn't be able to finish with the tieup of that laundry with some of
these other individuals until tomorrow, but we are going to develop
that situation.
Did Mr. Lehr return to see you at a later time and tell you that
there was another laundry company other than Nancy Dawson's that
he thought you should give the laundry to ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes. Well, he came over with Nancy Dawson twice.
Mr. Kennedy. Two times ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right. Then I said "No, I was not going to
change laundry companies at this particular time unless I got a good
deal and a good price."
In the meantime, another laundry company came over and saw me.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was that?
Mr. Tessmer. I think the two fellows represented, if I remember
right, it was Central.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he bring anybody else back ?
Mr. Tessmer. Then later on he brought Mr. Taylor and he said
"Since you don't want to give it to Nancy Dawson, see what you can
do for Mr. Taylor."
Mr. Kennedy. Who did Mr. Taylor represent ?
Mr. Tessmer. He is the one I am doing business with now.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Lehr ultimately brought the Michigan Indus-
trial Laundry back, is that right, a representative of the Michigan In-
dustrial Laundry ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. This is the same Mr. Lehr who had been described
to you as the individual who could settle your labor difficulties ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
The Chairman. What in the world did he have to do with where
you sent your laundry ?
Mr. Tessmer. Nothing.
The Chairman. It seems like he took a lot of interest in it.
Mr. Tessmer. Well, he wanted to get the business for his friends
is about all I can see.
The Chairman. He would settle all of your labor troubles if you
would look after his friends for him. Well, that is what it adds up
to, isn't it?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, if that is how it adds up.
The Chairman. Can you add it up to a different answer ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
The Chairman. Well, all right. We will agree on it.
Mr. Kennedy. So you gave your laundry, then, to Michigan In-
dustrial Laundry?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you had no labor problems, is that right ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, I had
Mr. Kennedy. They never organized your employees?
Mr. Tessmer. They are trying to organize.
Mr. Kennedy. But they never organized them at that time ?
Mr. Tessmer. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never had any more problem about them or-
ganizing your employees at that time ?
21243— 58— pt. 35— —4
13170 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, 6 weeks ago.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time.
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. The committee will have to recess for a few
minutes until we can go over and vote.
(At the recess, the following members were present : Senators Mc-
Clellan, Ives, Church, and Curtis.)
(Brief recess.)
(After the recess, the following members were present: Senators
Church, McClellan, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. The hearing will be in order.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Tessmer, you say that the union has been at-
tempting to organize you lately ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, sir.
Pardon me, not organize me. I let another mechanic go, and they
called me up and wanted to know why.
Mr. Kennedy. How long-ago was that?
Mr. Tessmer. About 6 weeks ago.
Mr. Kennedy. But you had no contract up to then ?
Mr. Tessmer. I have no contract.
Mr. Kennedy. Even now ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I might say that it was just about
7 or 8 weeks ago that we went into the local union in Detroit to look
at the files in connection with this matter. So it has been since we
evidenced interest that the union has again become interested in Mr.
Tessmer's company.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. I would just like to get a little background infor-
mation.
Is the laundry matter of supplying uniforms and laundering them
a sizable item in garage operations ?
Mr. Tessmer. A sizable item?
Senator Curtis. Yes, moneywise.
Mr. Tessmer. My bill runs in the neighborhood of between $400
and $500 a month.
Senator Curtis. A month. And that is servicing uniforms for
approximately how many men?
Just roughly.
Mr. Tessmer. I would say in the neighborhood of around 40, parts-
men, mechanics, floormen, and all.
Senator Curtis. So probably it is something that maybe runs $10
per man per month ?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes ; something like that. I never figured it out, to
be honest with you.
Senator Curtis. Do all the garages handle it in the same way ? The
management pays half and the men pay half ?
Mr. Tessmer. That I don't know. That is the way I handle it in
my place.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13171
Senator Curtis. With regard to the question of whether or not there
was union trouble, what do you consider to be union trouble ?
Are you referring to strikes and picket lines and problems of that
sort, or do you regard a demand that they be recognized as union
trouble ?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, I would say union trouble is when they want
me to recognize them and I wouldn't do it. I don't want to.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever have any strike at your place ?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Senator Curtis. No picket line?
Mr. Tessmer. No.
Senator Curtis. No violence or threat?
Mr. Tessmer. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. So in the sense of anything that would stop your
business, you have not had that serious trouble?
Mr. Tessmer. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. It has been the question of their demand that the
union be recognized ?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tessmer. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Thank you.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. We have an affidavit, Mr. Chairman, which supports
this testimony. Can we read part of it in ?
The Chairman. We have an affidavit from a Mr. Eichard B. Taylor
of Woodingham, Detroit, Mich., of 18112 Woodingham, Detroit, Mich.
Mr. Counsel, you may read the pertinent parts of it. The affidavit
will be made exhibit No. 7.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 7" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Salinger (reading) :
I am the sales manager of the Michigan Industrial Laundry in Detroit, Mich.,
the position I have held for the past year and a half.
My principal job is the soliciting of accounts for Michigan Industrial Laundry.
In January of 1958, I had a conversation with Joseph Lehr, one of the partners
of the Star Coverall Supply Co.
At that time, I was interested in getting accounts which were being serviced
by the Auto City Coverall Co. The reason for this was that Auto City had
taken one of Michigan Industrial accounts. I knew that Auto City was serving
the account of the Jefferson Chevrolet Co. and I asked Mr. Lehr if he knew
Ray Tessmer, the owner of that company.
Mr. Lehr said he did know Mr. Tessmer and would introduce me to him.
Lehr explained to me that the Star Coverall Co. had been friendly with the
Auto City Co. in the past and he did not want to take this account himself.
At one time, they had occupied the same building and used the same laundry
facilities. He subsequently took me to Jefferson Chevrolet Co. where he intro-
duced me to Mr. Tessmer, and after 3 or 4 subsequent visits with Tessmer, I
was awarded the Jefferson Chevrolet contract.
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. William Root.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give
before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Root. I do.
13172 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROOT
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Eoot. My name is Bill Root, and I live in Royal Oak, Mich.,
and I own Bill Root's Chevrolet in Farmington.
The Chairman. You waive counsel ?
Mr. Root. I do, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Yon own the Bill Root Chevrolet Co. ?
Mr. Root. That is right,
Mr. Kennedy. In the summer of 1956, did Local 376 of the Teamsters
begin to organize your employees ?
Mr. Root. They did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And there was an election held and the union won by
three votes ?
Mr. Root. Right.
Mr. Kennedy. You then went into negotiations with the union ?
Mr. Root. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. The union was represented in these negotiations by
Mr. Petroff ; that is right ?
Mr. Root. And Mr. Kierdorf .
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Kierdorf. The negotiation continued until
June of 1957?
Mr. Root. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And then a strike was called by the union; is that
right ?
Mr. Root. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And the strike ended several days before Christmas
of 1957?
Mr. Root. Two days after, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Two days after Christmas, 1957. Did you sign a
contract with the union then ?
Mr. Root. I did not, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. The only concession that you made was to rehire
some of the individuals who had been fired ?
Mr. Root. That is right, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. In November of 1957 did you have a meeting with
Mr. Joe Lehr ?
Mr. Root. I can't remember the exa«t date. I would say the meet-
ing was probably in October or before, a little before the new 1958
model came out,
Mr. Kennedy. Can you tell us how that was arranged, by whom ?
Mr. Root. I got a telephone call from Mr. Ernie Grissom, whom I
have known for a number of years, since he was a small boy, and we
have been friends for a long time. He merely asked me to come out
there. He had arranged a meeting with Mr. Lehr and Mr. Kierdorf.
It was to see if we could not start negotiations again.
Mr. Kennedy. What did Mr. Lehr have to do with the union?
Mr. Root. That I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Why was he to be involved in this meeting ?
Mr. Root. That is something I can't answer.
Mr. Kennedy. He was not associated with your company, was he?
Mr. Root. None whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. He was not associated with the union ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13173
Mr. Root. None that I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. Why was he present in these discussions?
Mr. Root. Well, he was the man who was in on the deal.
Mr. Kennedy. The fixer ?
Mr. Root. Apparently so, or friend of somebody.
Mr. Kennedy. So did you have the luncheon with him at Red
Kemp's Restaurant?
Mr. Root. We had one meeting previous to that in Mount Clemens.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss the problems then ?
Mr. Root. No ; we did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss it in substance ?
Mr. Root. We did discuss it, that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you tell us about it ?
Mr. Root. Well, the only discussion was that they wanted me to
sign a paper that I would recognize the union at a later date, to which
I would not agree without the advice of my counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Lehr speak to you at all about what coverall
company you were using ?
Mr. Root. He asked me at one time.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you tell him ?
Mr. Root. I told him I used Cadillac.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say he approved of Cadillac ?
Mr. Root. He said, "They are a good bunch of boys. Keep with
them."
Mr. Kennedy. He told you you should keep with them ?
Mr. Root. Right,
Mr. Kennedy. The picket line was called off. Did you feel that
Mr. Lehr had played a role in that ?
Mr. Root. I could not help but think that he had some part in the
matter.
Mr. Kennedy. You felt that he did ?
Mr. Root. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Your contact with Lehr was just shortly before the
strike ended, was it not ?
You contacted him 6 days before the strike ended ?
Mr. Root. That was the last contact. But I would say it was over
a longer period than that.
Mr. Kennedy. Your last contact was 6 days prior, and you felt that
he had played a role ?
Mr. Root. I believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it because of his friendship with Mr. Kierdorf ;
is that what you understand ?
Mr. Root. That is what I gathered ; that it was his friendship with
Mr. Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. We have some telephone calls. You were in touch
with Mr. Lehr frequently just prior to the time the strike ended,
were you ?
Mr. Root. I believe I did call him a couple of times.
Mr. Kennedy. And he, in turn, was in touch with Mr. Kierdorf; you
understood that ?
Mr. Root. I believe that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were all keeping Mr. Grissom advised as
to the progress ?
Mr. Root. Not necessarily keeping Mr. Grissom advised.
13174 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Well, you talked to Mr. Grissom ?
Mr. Root. I talked to him several times ; that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What Mere you saying to Mr. Lehr that he was to
pass on to Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Root. I don't believe I ever said anything to Mr. Lehr pertain-
ing to Mr. Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedv. What conversations did he relate to you that lie was
having with Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Root. Well, he just related to me that he could, possibly, get
us together again in negotiations.
Mr. Kennedy. And you got together with them taking the picket
line off ; is that right ?
Mr. Root. That is for sure.
The Chaikm a x. Did you get together and make a contract ?
Mr. Root. No, sir ; we never made a contract.
The Chairman. So, the only get-together, as counsel says, was
you got rid of your picket line, and that is what you wanted.
Mr. Root. That is what I was interested in ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever give any money to Mr. Lehr ?
Mr. Root. I did not, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you give any money to anybody else ?
Mr. Root. To nobody.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know why Mr. Lehr was so interested in
getting your picket line off ?
Mr. Root. Well, I can't understand, unless it was just the friend-
ship of Ernie Grissom. Ernie, as I have stated before, I have known
since he was a very young man.
Mr. Kennedy. Why would the union be willing to make this ar-
rangement ; do you know ?
Mr. Root. In my honest and frank opinion of it, I think they had
all they wanted of me.
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. Are there any questions ?
Senator Curtis. No questions.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Vincent Meli.
The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Meli. I do.
TESTIMONY OF VINCENT H. MELI, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ANTHONY A. VERMEULEN
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Meli. Vincent H. Meli, 711 North Oxford Road, Crosse Pointe
Woods, Mich. My place of business is the Star Coverall Supply Co.
The Chairman. And you have counsel, Mr. Meli ?
Mr. Meli. I do.
The Chairman. Mr. Attorney, will you identify yourself for the
record, please ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13175
Mr. Vermeulen. My name is Anthony A. Vermeulen, and I reside
at 716 Balford, Grosse Pointe Park, Mich., with offices in the city of
Detroit.
The Chairman. Give your office address, so if we have to get in
touch with you, please.
Mr. Vermeulen. 2715 Cadillac Tower, Detroit 26.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been with the Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Meli. Since, I believe it was, October 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have any other interests, other than the Star
Coverall ?
Mr. Meli. No ; I have no other interests.
Mr. Kennedy. That is your full-time job ?
Mr. Meli. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you a part owner of that ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Who else ?
Mr. Meli. Joseph Lehr and Louis Eisenberg.
Mr. Kennedy. What interest do you have ?
Mr. Meli. We have — we are copartners, equal copartners.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known Mr. Lehr ?
Mr. Meli. Since a few months before we formed the business.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you happen to go into business with him ?
Mr. Meli. Well, he was thinking of getting into the business at the
time we met, and we talked about it together.
Mr. Kennedy. Plow did you happen to meet him ?
Mr. Meli. Well, I was selling some trucks, or a truck or two, to the
place where he was working at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. Where was that ?
Mr. Meli. That was Klean Linen Supply.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know the owner of Klean Linen Supply,
Mr. Kiccardi ?
Mr. Meli. Vaguely.
Mr. Kennedy. Just met him occasionally ?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Lehr was interested in moving out of
there ; was he ?
Mr. Meli. Well, he wanted to go into the business.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened to Klean Linen Supply then ?
Mr. Meli. Then?
Mr. Kennedy. Did they remain in business ?
Mr. Meli. Yes ; they were in business.
Mr. Kennedy. They are still in business ; are they ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened to them ? They went out of busi-
ness?
Mr. Meli. Since that time, they went out of business ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know why they went out of business?
Mr. Meli. No; I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kiccardi appeared before the Kefauver com-
mittee, did he not?
Mr. Meli. Well, I guess so. I think I heard such; yes.
13176 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I guess he discussed the Klean Linen Supply Co.
at that time. Did you understand that; that he was asked about the
Klean Linen Co. at that time?
Mr. Meli. As I remember.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did you put into the company,
into your company, the Star Coverall ?
Mr. Meli. s7,:>00.
Mr. Kennedy. And Joe Lehr?
Mr. Mill We each put in equal amounts.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you borrow that money?
Mr. Meli. Yes, sir. '
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you borrow it from?
Mr. Melt. T borrowed the bulk of it from my father-in-law, Sam
Perrone, and the rest from another man. Do you want his name?
His name is Anthony Tocco.
Mr. Kennedy. Anthony Tocco?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that from the Melrose Linen Co.?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Which Anthony Tocco is that?
Mr. .Mill He was the timekeeper at the Detroit (Mich.) Stove Co.
at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did you get from Santo Perrone?
Mr. Meli. $6,000, I believe it was.
Mr. Kennedy. And then the rest of it came from Mr. Tocco?
Mr. Meli. From Mr. Tocco.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you put other money in as you went along 1
Mr. Meli. Well, later on, when we got into the laundry operation,
operating our own laundry.
Mr. Kennedy. You put money in then ?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did you put in ?
Mr. Meli. I loaned to the company, I think it was, $18,500.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that including your $7,500 ? Or is that
Mr. Meli. That was afterward.
Mr. Kennedy. That is $18,500 more ?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get that money ?
Mr. Meli. I mortgaged my home, and I borrowed some.
Mr. Kennedy. Whom did you borrow it from 2
Mr. Meli. I borrowed some from my brother-in-law, Augustino
Orlando.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did you get from him ?
Mr. Meli. About $9,500, altogether.
Mr. Kennedy. Anybody else ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did you get on the mortgage of
your home ?
Mr. Meli. $9,000.
Mr. Kennedy. $9,000 ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that with a bank ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the name of the bank ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13177
Mr. Meli. The Bank of the Commonwealth.
Mr. Kennedy. "When you first started in business, who were some
of your first accounts ?
Mr. Meli. Some of my first accounts ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. Well, there were several gas stations.
Mr. Kennedy. Perrone Service ?
Mr. Meli. Which?
Mr. Kennedy. The Perrone Service ?
Mr. Meli. I got that station. I don't know whether it was Per-
rone's Service at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the one owned by your father-in-law, Santo
Perrone ?
Mr. Meli. Well, it is not owned by him now.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it at the time ?
Mr. Meli. I don't remember exactly. I know he owned it at one
time, but I don't know whether he still did at that time. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. And the Federal Auto Supply ?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. That is owned by your father ?
Mr. Meli. The place, the building, is owned by my father ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And the Lafayette Motors, Inc. ? Did you also have
that?
Mr. Meli. Well, I didn't have them at that time. It was a little
later on.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was that owned by ?
Mr. Meli. Well, the man who is now my brother-in-law. He wasn't
at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. "Who owned it at the time ?
Mr. Meli. Jack Tocco.
Mr. Kennedy. Wasn't it formerly owned by Zerilli ?
Mr. Meli. Joe Zerilli?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. Not that I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. Anthony Zerilli ?
Mr. Meli. I am not sure. I mean I didn't know the exact owner-
ship.
Mr. Kennedy. It is owned now by Jack Tocco ?
Mr. Meli. It is nonexistent now.
Mr. Kennedy. It was owned by Jack Tocco ; you know that much
about it?
Mr. Meli. I think so.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know of any pressure that was being ap-
plied to any accounts, by either the union or by anyone else, to give
their account to you, to your company ?
Mr. Meli. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never knew about any of that ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know of the connection between Mr. Joseph
Lehr, your partner, and Mr. Kierdorf and Mr. Petroff, of the Teamsters
Union ?
Mr. Meli. Well, I knew he knew Mr. Kierdorf, and knows him now,
I guess.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mr. Petroff ?
13178 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Meli. I don't know about Mr. Petroff .
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that the union was going around, or,
rather, Mr. Kierdorf was going around to the various accounts and
suggesting that they give their business to you ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know exactly. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know if you know that ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear that ?
Mr. Meli. Well, I didn't hear anything exactly like that ; no.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you hear something like that ?
Mr. Meli. Well, I know my partner brought these accounts in.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that the union was helping him bring
these accounts in ?
Mr. Meli. The union ? No ; I didn't know anything about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know Mr. Kierdorf was helping him ?
Mr. Meli. I believe Mr. Kierdorf introduced him to some friends
of his.
Mr. Kennedy. You did understand that ?
Mr. Meli. I did understand that ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Who were some of the people he introduced him to ?
Mr. Meli. Well, let's see — I can't recall at the present time.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know any of them ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know the people ; no.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know any of the ones that were reported to
you that Mr. Kierdorf introduced to your partner, Mr. Lehr ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Meli. I think Hanley Dawson was one. I can't think of any
others.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't think of any others ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Kierdorf ever introduce you to anyone ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kierdorf was a friend of your father ?
Mr. Meli. Not that I know of.
(At this point, Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. You never saw your father in his presence ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You never saw that. According to the testimony
that we had this morning, one of the accounts Mr. Kierdorf caused
some difficulty for, stopped and said that it could be arranged if they
switched to your company, and the reason he was doing it is because
he wanted to do a favor for your father, Angelo Meli. Do you know
anything about that ?
Mr. Meli. No; I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if your father ever talked to Herman
Kierdorf about this ?
Mr. Meli. Not that I know.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know where your father is now ?
Mr. Meli. No; I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. We have been looking for him. You have not seen
him yourself ?
Mr. Meli. No ; I have not.
Mr. Kennedy. When was the last time you saw him ?
Mr. Meli. Just before I left on a vacation on the 4th of July.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13179
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know where lie is now ?
Mr. Meli. No; I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. Does he ordinarily go off on trips like this ?
Mr. Meli. Well, he has been off on trips.
Mr. Kennedy. Nobody knows where he is ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know where he could be ?
Mr. Meli. No, sir ; I don't.
The Chairman. You are not concerned about him ?
Mr. Meli. Concerned about him ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Meli. Yes, I am concerned about him.
The Chairman. You feel confident, then, that nothing has happened
to him ?
Mr. Meli. That is right.
The Chairman. He is just taking himself on a little vacation some-
what secretly ?
Mr. Meli. I suppose.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the connection of your father with Harry
Bennett Ford Co. ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know that they were friends ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know. I can't recall any such.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you heard that they were associates or friends?
Mr. Meli. That they were associates ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Or that they were friends.
Mr. Meli. No; I had not heard anything specifically along those
lines, no.
Mr. Kennedy. Generally along those lines did you know Harry
Bennett was a friend of your father's ?
Mr. Meli. I could not truthfully say that I know they were friends.
I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you work prior to going into the linen
work ?
Mr. Meli. I sold automobiles.
Mr. Kennedy. For whom ?
Mr. Meli. For Louis F. Brown most of the time, a Ford dealer in
Detroit.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you also work for Lafayette Motors ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, I did, for a short time.
Mr. Kennedy. And you work for Jack Tocco there ?
Mr. Meli. Well, I worked for Lafayette Motors.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you work for the Dick Connell Chevrolet Co. ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, before I started selling new cars I was selling used
cars.
Mr. Kennedy. Dick Connell has been a friend of your father for a
long time ?
Mr. Meli. Dick Connell?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know about that ?
13180 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Meli. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know anything about Dick Connell ?
Mr. Meli. Well, I know — I knew, I should say, Dick Connell, Jr.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know of his relationship with your father?
Mr. Meli. No, I don't know about any relationship.
Mr. Kennedy. Nothing about that.
Mr. Meli. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You Avorked for the Detroit, Mich., Stove Works for
a while ?
Mr. Meli. Yes ; for a while.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you work for them ?
Mr. Meli. Before I started selling cars.
Mr. Kennedy. Whose company was that, the Detroit, Mich., Stove ?
Mr. Meli. Well, I think a Mr. John Fry was the president.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Santo Perrone have anything to do with that ?
Mr. Meli. Not that I know of. He had something to do with it.
He did not have anything to do with the ownership.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he have to do with it?
Mr. Meli. Well, he had the scrap and trucking.
Mr. Kennedy. What do you mean he had the scrap of the company ?
Mr. Meli. They sold him the scrap metal, and whatever other scrap
there was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he arrange for you to go to work there ?
Mr. Meli. Well, not exactly arrange.
Mr. Kennedy. Introduced you ?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. The man that employed you there was this Mr.
Tocca who loaned you the money later on ; is that right ?
Mr. Meli. Well, he was the timekeeper and I guess he was sort of
an employment officer or something of the sort.
Mr. Kennedy. But that is the same individual that loaned you the
money ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, that is right ; that is the man.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you work for the Carl Renda Co. also ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, for a short while.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you work for the Carl Renda Co. ?
Mr. Meli. Well, after I left Lafayette Motors I worked for the Carl
Renda Co. for a short time.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the Carl Renda Co. ? What do they do ?
Mr. Meli. Well, it is nonexistent any more. It just had to be he
was in the scrap-metal business, I guess, the scrap business.
Mr. Kennedy. They had the scrap contract at the Briggs Co. ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, they did, at the time I worked for them. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there some testimony about that at the Ke-
fauver hearing also?
Mr. Meli. Well, I recall reading about that, too, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the testimony about ?
Mr. Meli. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you summarize?
Mr. Salinger. The testimony in the Kefauver committee was to
the effect that Sam Perrone, through his activities in breaking strikes
at the Briggs Co., had obtained the scrap contracts for his son-in-
law, Mr. Carl Renda.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13181
It is a fairly lucrative contract. Mr. Kenda testified that lie made,
I believe, more than $100,000 in a year. He lost the contract soon
after the Kef auver committee hearings.
Mr. Kennedy. Do we also have some information on Dick Connell,
in summary?
Mr. Salinger. Our information is to the effect that Dick Connell
has been friendly with Angelo Meli and a number of other individuals
in Detroit, Mr. Licavoli.
Mr. Kennedy. You know William Bufalino, do you not?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. He is related to you?
Mr. Meli. By marriage.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Jimmie Hoffa?
Mr. Meli. No, I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. You have never met Hoffa ?
Mr. Meli. No. We have never been introduced, no.
Mr. Kennedy. What about Owen Brennan?
Mr. Meli. I don't know him.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Tony Serogusa ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know John Priziola ?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Pete Corrado?
Mr. Meli. Well, I knew him.
Mr. Kennedy. When he was alive?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Pete Licavoli ?
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What was Pete Licavoli doing at your headquarters
or your place of business ?
Mr. Meli. My place of business ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. He was never in my place of business.
Mr. Kennedy. He never was in your place of business?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. We had some testimony this morning that he
Mr. Meli. Excuse me. He was at the laundry where we were hav-
ing our clothes washed at one time, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What was he doing there?
Mr. Meli. I don't know. He was not there to see me.
Mr. Kennedy. Is he a friend of yours ?
Mr. Meli. Well, a friend ? I know him from social affairs, and so
forth.
Mr. Kennedy. If he was not there to see you, why was he there?
Mr. Meli. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. He just dropped in ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ask him what he wanted when he was there?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. He just came in and looked around and you did not
ask him any questions ?
Mr. Meli. No. Why should I ask him ?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, he was there.
13182 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Meli. It was not my laundry.
Mr. Kennedy. You were j ust there also ?
Mr. Meli. Yes. This is the laundry where we were having our
clothes washed, paying someone else to wash our clothes at the time.
Mr. Kennedy. But was he ever actually in your building, where you
were?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Tie never was there ?
Mr. Meli. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How about Joe Bommarito? Was he ever in your
place ?
Mr. Meli. I know a couple of Joe Bommaritos slightly.
Mr. Kennedy. The man known as Scarf ace.
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. He never was there ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. We had some testimony that he was there.
Mr. Meli. He was ? Well, not that I know of.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't remember that ?
Mr. Meli. I don't remember seeing him there.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know John Ormento ?
Mr. Meli. Do I know John Ormento ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you know him ?
Mr. Meli. Well, his son is now married to the sister of my sister-in-
law.
The Chairman. Married to a sister of your sister-in-law ?
Mr. Meli. My brother's wife is the sister of John Ormento's son.
I mean of his wife. Pardon me.
The Chairman. I believe that is untangled. Let's go ahead.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known John Ormento, then?
Mr. Meli. I don't know. I met him a few years ago, I suppose.
Mr. Kennedy. He attended the meeting at Apalachin. Did you
discuss that matter with him at all ?
Mr. Meli. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a fugitive from justice. Would you have
any idea where he might be ?
Mr. Meli. No, I don't know anything about that.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to him after the meeting at Apalachin ?
Mr. Meli. Did I?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. No, I have not seen him.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, did you talk to him ?
Mr. Meli. No, sir ; no, I did not talk to him.
Mr. Kennedy. On November 21, 1957, you did not put a call in
to John Ormento ?
Mr. Meli. November 21, 1957 ?
Mr. Kennedy. Just a week after the meeting at Apalachin ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know if I put a call into him. I remember that
date. I put in a call to New York at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you talk to there ?
Mr. Melt. I talked to my sister-in-law's relatives.
Mr. Kennedy. Your sister-in-law's relatives ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13183
Mr. Meli. Yes, her parents. Well, as a matter of fact, I talked to
her sister. That is who I talked to.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is that ?
Mr. Meli. Patsy is her name. Patricia.
Mr. Kennedy. Patricia who ?
Mr. Meli. Ormento now. She wasn't — yes, she was married at the
time. Patricia Ormento.
Mr. Kennedy. You called her from your office, did you ?
Mr. Meli. From my office? I think I called her from home or
from — I don't know, somewhere else. It wasn't my office.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you call her very often ?
Mr. Meli. No. That was the day my brother was killed in the
service.
Mr. Kennedy. November 21, 1957 ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You called her about that ?
Mr. Meli. I called her about that.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Sam Stanoza ?
Mr. Meli. I know him, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you know him ?
Mr. Meli. How ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. How did I meet him ? What do you mean ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. I don't remember. Social affairs.
Mr. Kennedy. What does he do ?
Mr. Meli. I think he has kind of a bargain house, a discount store,
whatever they call them. I am not sure.
Mr. Kennedy. Plow long have you known him ?
Mr. Meli. Several years that I can remember.
Mr. Kennedy. You know, Mr. Meli, of no pressure that was applied
to any accounts to give their business to your company ?
Mr. Meli. I know of no pressure.
Mr. Kennedy. And you do say that on occasion you do know of the
fact that Mr. Kierdorf assisted Mr. Lehr in getting accounts for your
company ; is that right ?
Mr. Meli. Well, as I understand it, he introduced him to — I don't
know, a couple of people, I guess.
Mr. Kennedy. Your company has been quite profitable, though, has
it not?
Mr. Meli. Quite profitable.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. Well, I guess that is a matter of opinion.
Mr. Kennedy. The business has grown quite a bit since it started ?
Mr. Meli. It has grown slowly.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have the figures on how much it has grown ?
Mr. Meli. Do you mean
Mr. Kennedy. The gross business.
Mr. Meli. Well, I believe Mr. Salinger has them right now.
Mr. Kennedy. Can we put those into the record ?
The Chairman. They may be read into the record and ask the
witness if they are accurate.
Mr. Salinger. Partnership return of the Star Coverall Co. for the
period September 30 to November 30, 1952.
13184 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. What is the date ?
Mr. Salinger. September 30 to November 30, 1952. They only put
in for 1 month, starting on a fiscal basis. Their gross receipts were
$2,652.97. For the following year, from December 1, 1952, to October
31, 1953, the gross receipts were $67,899.
The Chairman. That would indicate, I assume, that the business
just about doubled the first year.
Mr. Salinger. Well, if you take that month.
The Chairman. That is, for an average month.
Mr. Salinger. I would say at least doubled and maybe tripled.
The Chairman. It is over $30,000 a year. It jumped the next year
to $67,000. It is about double.
Mr. Melt. Yes, sir.
That sounds about right.
The Chairman. That sounds about right. Let's get the next one.
Mr. Salinger. In the year ending October 31, 1954, the business had
increased to $112,993. In the year ending October 31, 1955, it was
$156,514. Then there was a drastic drop in 1956, in the year ending
October 31, 1956. The business showed a total of $76,178. But in the
year ending October 31, 1957, it jumped back up to $211,641.
Mr. Meli. That does not sound right. Was there a change in the
fiscal year at that time, or something \
Mr. Kennedy. Well, was there?
Mr. Meli. Well, I don't know. I would have to see the figures.
The Chairman. Well, this would indicate in 1957, that part of
the calendar year 1957, that is your fiscal year, that from 1956 you
must have had a lot of good luck getting new business ?
Mr. Meli. I wish we had more business.
The Chairman. I know you do, and nobody is questioning that. It
is a very attractive figure here we are looking at, but we have also had
some testimony about it that wasn't very attractive. That is what we
are trying to find out. I don't envy anybody having success in
business.
You have heard some testimony here today, if you have been here,
that some of this business was procured by a little bit of pressure and
a little bit of force ?
Mr. Meli. That wasn't my impression.
The Chairman. You didn't get that impression ?
Mr. Meli. I didn't get any impression there was any pressure.
The Chairman. You didn't ?
Mr. Meli. No, sir.
The Chairman. You are about the only one who didn't.
Proceed.
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Meli is right. It did not drop down in that
year, and the return has been changed around. During the year
ending October 31, 1956, the business had increased to $185,353, and it
has shown a steady increase.
The Chairman. One hundred and eighty-five thousand dollars and
it has shown a steady increase, and that $76,000 was in error?
Mr. Salinger. That is right.
The Chairman. It started about $32,000 a year, and it went to
$67,000, and $112,000 and $156,000 and $185,000 and then $211,000,
in round numbers ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13185
Mr. Salinger. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Meli, do I understand you that you see nothing
improper or wrong in the activities at least of Mr. Lehr that have
been testified to here before the committee ?
Mr. Meli. I know of no improper activities.
Mr. Kennedy. Bringing the union's power in to obtain clients for
you, and you see nothing wrong with that, Mr. Meli ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you listened to the testimony here this
morning ?
Mr. Meli. I heard some of it. I wasn't here this morning.
Mr. Kennedy. We have had 4 or 5 examples where the union has
used its power in order to get clients for you, or in order to keep clients
for you.
Mr. Meli. I don't know of any such thing.
Mr. Kennedy. You would consider that certainly improper, would
you not?
Mr. Meli. I would consider exactly what improper ?
Mr. Kennedy. That kind of activity, the union helping and assist-
ing you in getting clients.
Mr. Meli." The union helping and assisting me ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Meli. I don't know. I guess I would consider that improper,
yes.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have known, have you not, that Mr. Kier-
dorf was making introductions for your partner, Mr. Lehr ?
Mr. Meli. I know that much.
Mr. Kennedy. You never felt that was improper ?
Mr. Meli. Well, he wasn't a union making these introductions.
Mr. Kennedy. He is a business agent for the union, is he not, and
he is very close to Mr. James Holla ?
Mr. Meli. I don't know.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?
Senator Church. I have just one question. Did I understand you
to say, Mr. Meli, that this business of yours, that you regarded it as
having grown gradually ?
Mr. Meli. Yes, sir.
Senator Church. Now, you have been in business since 1952, and
the figures that have been put into the record here would indicate that
the business has grown, in round figures, from around $30,000 a year
during the first year, to $211,000 in 1957. That is roughly a sevenfold
growth during the period of 5 years. Do you think that is gradual?
Mr. Meli. We started with no business, as a matter of fact.
Senator Church. Yes, but your business as compared with the first
year, in a 5-year period, has grown 7 times over.
Mr. Meli. I am happy about that and I wish it had grown faster.
Senator Church. Is that your idea of a gradual growth ? It seems
like a healthy growth to me.
Mr. Meli. That is fine, and I am glad you consider it healthy.
Senator Church. I would consider it very healthy. But you know
of no activity on the part of anyone that would relate the union to this
rate of growth of your business %
Mr. Meli. Relate to the union, no. I know of nothing.
21243— 5S— pt. 35 5
13186 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Church. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. I asked you about where your father was. Do you
know where your father-in-law is ?
Mr. Meli. No.
Mr. Kennedy. We are looking for him, also.
Mr. Meli. So I understand.
The Chairman. You are kind of like an abandoned child, aren't
you?
Mr. Meli. Not at all, sir. I am not a child.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
The committee will stand in recess until 10 : 30 tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:05 p. m., the committee adjourned to reconvene
at 10 : 30 a. m., Friday, August 1, 1958.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
FRIDAY, AUGUST 1, 1958
United States Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
in the Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D. C.
The select committee met at 10 : 30 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room, United States
Senate, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select committee)
presiding.
Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Sena-
tor Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat, North Carolina; Senator Frank
Church, Democrat, Idaho ; Senator Irving M. Ives, Republican, New
York ; Senator Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona ; Senator Carl
T. Curtis, Republican, Nebraska.
Also present: Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel; Pierre E. G. Sal-
inger, investigator; James Mundie, investigator; Ruth Young Watt,
chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session were: Senators McClellan, Ives, Church, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to calling the first witness, I want to put some
information in the record. Yesterday I asked the witness, Mr. Meli,
about a telephone call to John Ormento, and John Ormento being a
leading gangster in the United States, and attended the meeting at
Apalachin. He is now a fugitive from justice on a Bureau of Nar-
cotics charge.
He stated at that time that the call that took place around the 20th
of November 1957 concerned the death of his brother, who had just
been killed, and that he called John Ormento or his family to discuss
that. I would like to put the dates involved in that matter into the
record, and call upon Mr. Salinger to do that.
The Chairman. Mr. Salinger has been previously sworn, and you
may make a statement, Mr. Salinger.
TESTIMONY OF PIERRE E. SALINGER— Resumed
Mr. Salinger. The toll call was made on November 21, 1957, from
the Star Coverall Supply Co. to the residence of John Ormento, of
New York City. Mr. Meli testified that was the day that his brother
was killed in an airplane crash, and he explained that was the reason
for the call.
13187
13188 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
However, we have checked the record, and his brother died on No-
vember 14, 19f><>, a year later.
The Chairman. Did we excuse that witness ?
Mr. SalinCxER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Well, we have so many characters like that before
us. I thought if he was here we would interrogate him a little further
about it.
All right, call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. The first witness is Mr. Colton.
The Chairman. Mr. Colton, will you come around, please?
Do you solemnly swear that, the evidence, given before this Senate
select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Colton. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SOL R. COLTON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
DAVID A. GOLDMAN
The Chairman. Mr. Colton, state your name, and your place of
residence, and your business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Colton. My name is Sol R. Colton, and I am a resident of the
city of Detroit, and my occupation is treasurer of the Domestic Line
Supply Co., a Micliigan corporation, also of Detroit.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Do you have counsel
present ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir; I do.
The Chairman. Please identify yourself for the record.
Mr. Goldman. My name is David A. Goldman, attorney at law,
with offices at 1770 National Building, Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. All right, you may proceed.
Mr. Salinger. Before I start questioning Mr. Colton, I might say
that Mr. Colton has information on a number of matters which we
have become interested in, in the Detroit area, in the linen and overall
business but we are only going to question him this morning on the
phases involving the overall business and we will have him come back
for the linen business when we get into that phase of it a little later.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Salinger. You are the owner of the Domestic Linen Co. in
Detroit, Mich. ?
Mr. Colton. I am one of the owners.
Mr. Salinger. And that company does business in the linen supply
and in the overall supply industry, is that correct ?
Mr. Colton. That is correct, Mr. Salinger.
Mr. Salinger. Now, sometime in the latter part of 1957, did some
information come to your attention regarding the activities of the
Star Coverall Supply Co., in one of the accounts you were servicing
at that time ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir ; it did.
Mr. Salinger. Would you -relate to the committee what that was,
please ?
Mr. Colton. We had been servicing an account by the name of
Dawson Taylor Chevrolet, located on Libernay and Grand River in
the city of Detroit. Shortly after the agency had begun its business,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13189
a strike was called on the part of the mechanical employees and our
service was temporarily interrupted during the course of this strike.
Shortly after the resumption of business, when the picket lines were
removed, we received a phone call from a friendly competitor advising
us that we were going to lose the business that we enjoyed at this
agency to a company by the name of the Star Coverall Supply. The
same informant advised us that the change was made due to the influ-
ence of a teamster organizer by the name of Kierdorf .
Subsequent to this telephone call, we were notified that it was the
intention of the customer to discontinue the use of our service and
shortly thereafter our service was discontinued, but peculiarly enough
rather than to the Star Coverall Co. the account was lost to the Dawson
Industrial Coverall Supply.
The Chairman. You received a telephone call telling you you were
going to lose the business before your customer ever discussed it with
you?
Mr. Colton. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. And from whom was that call ?
Mr. Colton. Mr. Tom Andres of the Clean Coverall Supply in the
city of Detroit.
The Chairman. Did he give you any explanation as to how he knew
you were going to lose the business ?
Mr. Colton. I did not receive the phone call myself, my sales man-
ager, Mr. Kabette, received the phone call and relayed the information
to me.
The Chairman. Do you recall or do you know whether he did give
some reason for it at the time of the call ?
Mr. Colton. I don't quite understand, sir.
The Chairman. When Mr. Andres called your assistant and told
him that your company was going to lose the business, did he at that
time make any statement as to why it was or what was back of it ?
Mr. Colton. The intercession of Mr. Kierdorf was responsible for
the loss of the account.
The Chairman. He told you at that time that Kierdorf was inter-
ceding and was going to take the account away from you ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is what I wanted to get clear.
Proceed.
Mr. Salinger. Actually when you did lose the business, you did not
lose it to the Star Coverall Supply Co. but you lost it to the Dawson
Industrial Laundry ?
Mr. Colton. That is correct.
The Chairman. May I inquire, is that Dawson the same woman
that testified here yesterday who was going around or they were taking
around trying to get other business ?
Mr. Salinger. We will develop that later, Senator.
The Chairman. That is a fact ?
Mr. Salinger. Yes.
Now, did other information come to your attention about the activ-
ties of Mr. Kierdorf on behalf of the Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, and I don't have this at firsthand, but there is a
rumor mill in Detroit as well as in other places, and it is my under-
standing that the Ford agency in Garden City by the name of the
13190 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Ellsworth Ford agency changed from its previous supplier to its
present supplier also due to the intercession of Mr. Kierdorr.
However, my company was in no way involved.
Mr. Salinger. Who was the supplier that took over the account at
the Ralph Ellsworth Ford Co. ?
Mr. Colton. I believe the Star Coverall Co.
Mr. Salinger. Whom did they take it from ?
Mr. Colton. The Dawson Industrial Coverall was supplying that
account.
Mr. Salinger. In this case, the Star Coverall took an account which
belonged to the Dawson Industrial Laundry ?
Mr. ( 'olton. Yes, sir.
Mr. Salinger. Did you ever connect that to the situation at the
Dawson Taylor Co. in your own mind ?
Mr. Colton, Not until I heard some of the evidence presented here,
and I do have a conclusion or conjectures in that direction at the pres-
ent time.
Mr. Salinger. Now, after you got the information from Mr. An-
dres that you were going to lose the account at the Dawson Taylor Co.,
did you scud Mr. Rabette over there to find out what it was all about?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir, I did. He spoke to a Mr. Knight, who was
the general manager of the Dawson Taylor Chevrolet, and Mr. Knight
stated that the only reason he was making the change to the Star
Coverall was because he had previously been employed at the Louis
F. Brown Ford agency, and in the course of his employment there
he had made many sales to the Meli family, and that therefore he was
under obligation to turn the business over to the Star Coverall Co.,
and at the same time he denied Kierdorf's intercession in the switch-
ing of the business.
Mr. Salinger. Did he say he knew Kierdorf ?
Mr. Colton. He admitted having known him, because there was a
picket line for about a month or so put out by the local of the Team-
sters.
Mr. Salinger. He had sold cars to Vincent Meli and his father,
An gel o Meli ?
Mr. Colton. I don't know that, except he mentioned the Meli family.
Mr. Salinger. Now, Mr. Colton, you have been associated with the
linen and overall industry in Detroit for a number of years ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir ; I have.
Mr. Salinger. Has it come to your attention during those years that
certain companies have had what you would consider racket back-
grounds? Are there any companies that you felt had racket back-
grounds ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
Mr. Salinger. Do you remember a company called the Wayne
Linen Co. ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Salinger. Did you hear the name of Harry Fleischer connected
with that company ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
Mr. Salinger. Did you know Harry Fleischer to be a top member
of the old Purple mob in Detroit ?
Mr. Colton. I have no knowledge of that except what I have read
in the newspapers, and I have never met the gentleman.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13191
Mr. Salinger. He is currently serving a penitentiary sentence in the
State of Michigan ?
Mr. Colton. I believe that that is correct.
Mr. Salinger. And the operations of the Klean Linen Co. ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
Mr. Salinger. You understand Mr. Louis Riccardi was connected
with that company ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
Mr. Salinger. A man who had been very active in the rackets in
Detroit for a number of years and arrested five times for murder ?
Mr. Colton. I have no personal knowledge of that except what I
have read in the newspapers.
Mr. Salinger. You knew Mr. Riccardi testified before the Kef auver
committee ; is that correct ?
Mr. Colton. I also read that in the papers.
Mr. Salinger. Did you know about the existence of the Famous
Linen Co. ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
Mr. Salinger. Which was run by a man named Frank Barbaro?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
Mr. Salinger. Did you know anything of Mr. Barbara's reputa-
tion?
Mr. Colton. Only what I read in the newspapers ; and I don't know
any of these gentlemen that you mentioned personally, with the excep-
tion of Louis Riccardi, in the course of business.
Mr. Salinger. Mr. Barbaro operated a nightclub in Hamtramck
called the Bowery, which was a meeting spot of all of the Detroit
racketeers ?
Mr. Colton. I know that he operated the Bowery ; yes, sir.
Mr. Salinger. But the Bowery was generally accepted as a racket
hangout in the Detroit area?
Mr. Colton. I believe it was so reputed.
Mr. Salinger. As I said, Mr. Chairman, we will have Mr. Colton
back on some other material.
Senator Curtis. May I ask a question there?
Now, this interference of Teamsters officials to direct the place
where you do business for uniforms and laundries; when did that
occur, and during what months of what year did you say ?
Mr. Colton. You have reference, Senator, to the case involving the
Dawson Taylor Chevrolet Co.
Senator Curtis. Any one of them that you have testified to and you
are familiar with.
Mr. Colton. I have only testified to that one.
Senator Curtis. That is the one, and I wasn't sure of the name.
Mr. Colton. That happened within the past 6 months.
Senator Curtis. Within the past 6 months ?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. In other words, you may not know that, but, so far
as the committee is concerned, that is since the Teamsters Union
have been under investigation by this committee and, also, in their
parent organization.
Mr. Colton. I believe that is so, sir.
Senator Curtis. It was testified yesterday by one motor dealer, or
garage operator, that this item of uniforms and laundry went around
13192 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
$400 a month in his garage. Would you mind telling me or telling
the committee how big an item it amounts to, approximately ?
Mr. Colton. Senator, I am a supplier, and 1 don't operate a garage.
Senator Curtis. But I mean for the garage you testified about.
Mr. Colton. Generally, the charges that go to make up the cost
of the coverall service to an agency are based on a per-man charge.
That is the number of suits that each man agrees to rent by contract
per week, and that determines the charge. The average weekly charge
per man is in the area of $4 per week, so that, in order for there to be a
$400 account based upon that average, there would be 25 men employed
to approximate $400 per month.
Senator Curtis. What 1 am getting at: In the greater Detroit area
this is a sizable industry, isn't it?
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir ; I would hazard a guess that the total volume
of business done would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $20
million annually in the Detroit area in the State of Michigan.
Senator Curtis. $20 million '.
Mr. Colton. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Senator Church. Mr. Colton, would you tell me a little bit more
about the picketing that I understood you to say was going on at the
Dawson Taylor Chevrolet Co.? Did that go on for a month's time?
Mr. Colton. In order to explain that, I have to give you a little
background. This same location that is now being operated as Daw-
son Taylor Chevrolet was formerly called the John Homer Chev-
rolet Co.
The Dawson Taylor agency took over the location, the establish-
ment of the John Homer Chevrolet. Within 30 days after they took
over the operation of that agency, a strike was called. The place was
shut down completely for a period of 30 days or possibly 6 weeks.
At the conclusion of the strike, the shop was reopened — that is, the
agency was reopened — and immediately after its reopening we were
notified that our services were to be terminated.
(At this point, the following members were present: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Ives, Church, and Curtis.)
Senator Church. That clears it up for me. I understand from
counsel that the next witness will be Mr. Dawson Taylor, of the Daw-
son Taylor Co. I think he can give us, in even more detail, that situ-
ation. Thank you.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions? Are there any
other questions ? If not, thank you very much.
Mr. Colton. Thank you.
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dawson Taylor and Mr. Hanley Taylor, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. Be sworn, gentlemen. Do you and each of you
solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate
select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. I do.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. I do.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13193
TESTIMONY OF HANLEY TAYLOR AND DAWSON TAYLOR
The Chairman. Beginning on my left, will you state your name,
your place of residence, and your business or occupation ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. My name is Hanley Taylor, president of
Taylor's Motor Sales, Inc., Detroit, Mich., a Michigan corporation.
My residence address is 18085 Birchcrest Drive. I might add, also,
Senator, that Taylor's Motor Sales, Inc., owns two subsidiary corpora-
tions, Taylor's on Van Dyke, Inc., and Taylor's on Grand River, Inc.,
at different locations.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Dawson Taylor. My name is Dawson Taylor. I am an attor-
ney at law, as well as being an automobile dealer. I am the owner of
Dawson Taylor Chevrolet Co., Detroit, Mich. My residence is in
Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, you waive counsel, of course ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. We do.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. We do.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dawson Taylor, how long have you been in the
Chevrolet business, approximately ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. On May 1, last year, I made a deal with the
interests of the Don Homer family to buy the Don Homer Chevrolet
Co.
Mr. Kennedy. Formerly, you had been in business with your
brother ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you broke away and started your own ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you approached, shortly after you started in
the Chevrolet business, about having your employees organized ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. No, sir ; I was not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did the Teamsters contact you ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. No, sir ; they did not. I would like to explain
the method of contact.
Mr. Kennedy. You heard from the Teamsters ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. It is kind of an unusual situation. I opened
the business on the 17th, as I recall it, of May, a 2- week period interval
for inventory between the 1st and 17th of May. I did not know whether
or not the service business would remain good. I took over a number
of employees of the Don Homer Chevrolet Co., the service department
of, maybe, 30 or 40 employees. Since the business had not been suc-
cessful, it had gone out of business ; it was really a question in my mind
whether the business would be profitable, whether it would be sensible
to continue to operate the service department.
After about 10 days of operation, it was apparent that the service
business was not going to be profitable, and I intended to close it down
to a very small force for the rest of the summer. The Chevrolet car was
not selling very well a year ago, if you remember, and it looked as
though it was a smart thing to do. I was next told — I was sent a
telegram by the Teamsters, but I did not receive the telegram, because
I was out of town. The Teamsters sent a telegram requesting my
recognition of the employees in my shop.
13194 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I never had an employee approach me and make a demand on me,
saying, "I am unhappy with my work conditions" or nothing else.
It was nothing more, in my opinion, than a realization by the Teamsters
that there was unrest there and a chance to organize this automobile
dealership.
Mr. Kennedy. That was received on June 1; is that right?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir. I was out of town at that time at a
convention.
Mr. Kennedy. The telegram was from Eddie Petroff, of the
Teamsters ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And, shortly afterward, did they put picket lines in
front of your place of business ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir ; they did.
Mr. Kennedy. On June 5 ; is that right ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were any of your employees in that picket line?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir ; there were, for a while.
Mr. Kennedy. You were completely separate from your brother
at that time?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. I am, sir; I had to show General Motors that
that was so before they would allow me to have the General Motors
franchise.
Mr. Kennedy. Is it a fact that the teamsters also picketed your
brother's place of business ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did your brother have anything to do with this
dispute whatsoever ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. None whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have anything to do with this dispute?
Mr. Hanley Tay-lor. None whatsoever.
Air. Kennedy". Did they put pickets in front of your place of
business ?
Mr. Hanley Taytxdr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How many pickets ?
Mr. Hanley^ Taylor. This is about 3 weeks after the strike started
at my brother's location. They saw they weren't getting anywhere
with him, so they decided to picket our Livernois location, a very large
location in Detroit.
I would say there were about 30 pickets put around this particular
building and driveways. After about 3 or 4 days, they went down
to our Grand River operation and also picketed 2 stores down there.
They had, probably, 15 pickets at that location. Both of these opera-
tions are located in Wayne County. We also have a third location,
which, as I said, was Taylor's on Van Dyke, which is in Macomb
County, just outside the county line.
They went out there and picketed that location for about an hour.
We were endeavoring to find out as to why the picketing was so short
in the Macomb County operation, and it came to us that the Macomb
County courts were very much harder on injunctions, in issuing in-
junctions; they are easier to get in Macomb County than in Wayne.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not have any part in this dispute ; you were
completely apart from it, and yet they were picketing three of your
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13195
stores. Couldn't you go and get an injunction in the court in Wayne
County ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. As soon as I saw these pickets out in front,
I called our attorney, Mr. Charles Kooney, and asked him what
could be done, because I heard a rumor that we were going to be
picketed. He told me that it would be practically impossible to get
an injunction in Wayne County, because of the political situation.
He said "You might just as well save yourselves a lot of money
and put up with the aggravation."
Mr. Kennedy. You mean you just had to accept this picketing
where you had absolutely nothing to do with this dispute whatso-
ever?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Absolutely nothing. As a matter of fact,
we have a very, very strong employees' association of our own. It
belongs to our employees. It has been under Michigan charter since
1946. The union has made several attempts during the past to
organize them and they have not gotten anywhere at all. They knew
better than to try to organize us at this state. To this minute I have
not met any of the organizers. I hardly know them by sight.
Mr. Kennedy. They never approached you ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. You say in the other county you could get a court
injunction?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. So they stopped that immediately ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right. We were ready to go into the
Macomb County court and get an injunction. We could have gotten
it in a half hour or so, because we were assured. It was entirely illegal.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you say this is a political situation?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. I would. The Detroit Police Department
bent over backward, however, in helping us, but their hands were
tied.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they try to stop your trucks from coming in?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That was the thing that really affected us
the most. We do a terrific amount of truck business, and all of the
trucks were stopped, as they tried to cross into our garage.
Their numbers were taken and the drivers were abused verbally.
The result was that we just did not do any truck business at all.
Also, we receive all of our new automobiles from the Chrysler Corp.
by truck. The first load of cars that came in on the first morning of
the strike, or of the pickets rather, was stopped right in its tracks
and sent back and the driver told that if he dropped those cars off
anywhere along the way, that serious repercussions would occur.
Mr. Kennedy. "What did you do? You had to send the men
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right. We had to send our salesmen
over and drive these cars back after 5 and 6 o'clock at night, because
it seemed that the pickets did not like the hot weather in Detroit and
they left about 5 or 6 o'clock every afternoon.
Mr. Kennedy. None of your employees so far as you know had
even been approached?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. None whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. And none had voted to go out on strike ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. None.
13196 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, when he testified before the committee
last year, said that whenever they call a strike in Detroit, it is always
taken up by the membership and the membership votes on it, and that
they are not the kind of a union that calls strikes and just arbitrarily
walks out. You say they were not even consulted in this case ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. None whatsoever, Mr. Kennedy.
The Chairman. In this instance, you had no members among your
employees to consult about a strike ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is correct, Senator.
The Chairman. I wonder if workers in other places would presume
to vote to picket your place.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Well, Senator, going back to April, which
was before this other fracas, it looked to us as though there was a
union member at our Van Dyke location. We did not know at the
time lie had signed up joining the association of Taylor's, and he just
did not perform his work satisfactorily, and the shop foreman dis-
charged him. The union wanted to have a hearing before the associ-
ation, Taylor's Motor Sales Association. They did hold the meeting
of our employees' association. His discharge was upheld by the asso-
ciation. That was the only time that the union ever had any contact
with any of our employees. At that point
The Chairman. This even goes beyond what they were doing to
you, it goes beyond organizational picketing. They were not trying
to organize your plant.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is true, Senator.
The Chairman. They were picketing your place in an attempt to
coerce your brother in connection with his business and the relation
of his employees.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Senator, that is absolutely right. We are
well known in our Detroit, and our advertising slogan is "You Are
Tops With the Taylor Family.'' We have been in the automobile
business for 45 years.
My father started in 1914. We are very closely knit. They figured
by putting the pressure on me, I would merely call my brother, DawT-
son, and say "Look, let's get this thing over with," but it didn't work
that way.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. I have listened with interest here as you recite
this. In a sense, it is a secondary boycott because in simple language
a secondary boycott is when the union carries their contest to neutral
third persons who may be doing business with the primary employer.
We have many instances of that. We have situations where perhaps
there will be labor difficulties in a radio station and every business
that advertises over the radio station may be threatened with pickets
if they don't stop advertising there. But in this case, you were not
even doing business with your brother.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right.
Senator Curtis. It was a secondary boycott of a neutral relative.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Senator, it was just the family relationship
and nothing else.
Senator Curtis. Yes. I agree with the late Senator Taft who said
that there never has been a good or justifiable secondary project. In
other words, the problem between union and management should be
one that should be determined in lawful manner between the em-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13197
ployees involved and the employer involved, and certainly not carried
to other people, and to the public generally. Of course, in this
case even your brother's place did not have the direct, legitimate and
usual union problem.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right.
Senator Curtis. I want you to tell us for the record what are some
of the unfair aspects and damages that accrue when a business is
boycotted. Are there customers that either do not want to come in
or do not come in, or at least they feel timid about it?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Senator, I think that, in answering your ques-
tion, an awful lot has to do with the prestige and the advertising and
the background of the company that is being picketed, and, of course,
naturally, the kind of business they are in.
In our particular business, as you realize, we do business with the
public. We have two extremes in this situation. One is that all of
our commercial business stopped right in its tracks because they are
scared stiff of the Teamsters. It is understandable.
Mr. Kennedy. The commercial business, in other words, was run by
people who could be directly hurt by Teamsters boycotting their own
business activities.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is correct. And it is understandable
because everybody that drives a truck is a member of the Teamsters,
I presume, unless they own their own vehicle, and we do business with
large fleet accounts, and, naturally, they don't want to take a chance of
doing business with a company that has labor disputes at all. Of
course, as soon as they saw the pickets, they naturally assumed that
we had labor trouble, which we did not have. Going into the sales
aspect of it, it is a very peculiar thing, but the public in Detroit reacted
very favorably toward our sales.
We figured that the sales would completely disappear. As a matter
of fact, we had telephone call after telephone call saying "We have
known you people for years. You don't have any labor trouble, do
you?"
Of course, we went on to explain. We sold automobiles right
though the pickets. But, of course, there again the public was not
interested — well, they were interested in getting the best deal they
could on their car.
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. But so far as service is concerned, in addition
to your commercial customers, there are a few people who, regardless
of where their sympathies might lie, are going to avoid a picket line
rather than be embarrassed.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right. As a matter of fact, we sent
out and brought in these trucks after hours with our own drivers to
accommodate our customers and take care of them on our night
shift, so that they would have their transportation taken care of. I
might say that our building is such — there are very few buildings
in Detroit that can accommodate large trucks. They had to come
into our place. The fact that they would not let them in, in several
instances the trucks just broke down.
Mr. Kennedy. Then, of course, there is the point that you already
mentioned, that it stops the flow of delivered merchandise.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Right in its tracks. What they would do
is take the number on the side of the truck, the driver's name and the
13198 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
license number of the truck, and threatened them with serious re-
percussions and the suspension, I suppose, of his card or something.
Senator Curtis. I certainly agree with you on the seriousness of
this. When these contests are taken to neutral third persons, and
where you have no union trouble, no dispute, at all, but to accomplish
something someplace else, they do this damage to your business.
In my opinion, neither the law nor its administration should toler-
ate it for 1 minute. One of your competitors could not do those
things, could he ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right.
(At this point, Senator Ives withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. We just would not permit a competitor to stop the
flow of merchandise into a place of business or to harass or to em-
barrass customers, or to cause economic damage if they didn't com-
ply. One of the very foundation stones in our government of law
is the principle of equality before the law, that people should have
equal rights. The union should have no right to carry on the second-
ary boycotts or related activities whatever. It just can't be justified
in our American ideals.
Senator Church. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Church.
Senator Church. Mr. Taylor, I would like to ask you 2 or 3 ques-
tions about the problem you have been describing.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Surely, Senator.
Senator Church. Was there any possibility that the fact that both
you and your brother are both in the automobile business and the
family had been known to be in the automobile business for a number
of years in that area, which might have led to the union in this case
to conclude that they were dealing with the same employer, so to
speak ?
I would like to have your opinion on that question first.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. I am sure that that was one of the reasons
that they had, Senator; that they figured that they could not con-
ceive of the two of us breaking away. After all, my brother got
out of the service in 1946. We have been in business together ever
since. They could not conceive that it was possible. They did not
ask anybody. They did not try to find out, they just blandly went
right in.
Mr. Kennedy. They presumed they were dealing with the same
employer in your case as with your brother ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right. If Mr. Kierdorf had been up
and aboveboard about it, he would have come in and introduced him-
self and said, "Mr. Taylor, I would like to see your minute book."
Mr. Kennedy. That leads me to the second question. During the
time the pickets were picketing your place of business, did you have
any communication at all from the union or any explanation as to why
the pickets were there, or any demands made upon you for organizing
in these places that were being picketed ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Senator, not a word. To this moment, I have
not met any of the members of the union. Because of the experience
that I related in April, I am sure that they saw how our employees felt
about us. We have employees that have been with us for years and
years and years.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13199
Mr. Kennedy. With reference to your employees' association, is that
what you might describe as a company union? Is it an independ-
ent
Mr. Hanley Taylor. It is completely independent and under their
own charter.
Mr. Kennedy. But are they affiliated with any of the AFL or CIO
groups ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. No, Senator ; they are not.
Mr. Kennedy. In that sense they are independent ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. This association — is it just as large as your employees
within your own business or does it extend further ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. It just takes care of our own employees. As
a matter of fact, there are some of our own employees that don't belong
to it because they did not see fit to pay the dues.
Mr. Kennedy. I see. But in the sense that it just applies to your
own employees, it is a company union
Mr. Hanley Taylor. The three corporations that I mentioned.
Mr. Kennedy. Your three corporations.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. That is right. It has nothing to do with the
Dawson Taylor Chevrolet.
Mr. Kennedy. How long did this picketing go on that you de-
scribed ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. I would say it was over 2 periods, a 3- week
period in June and then again the end of July for about 10 days.
Mr. Kennedy. At a 3-week period in June and then it went into
July for about 10 days. So all told it went on for about a month's
time?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes ; it did. During this time, we also have
two entrances to our salesroom, and they did everything they could to
keep the customers from coming in. They would intimidate them
and say, "You would not buy a car from anyone who had labc^ trou-
ble." They didn't say we were on strike. The signs said we were
unfair to organized labor, not on strike.
Mr. Kennedy. I take it from what you said that none of your own
employees had anything to do with these pickets, and did not partici-
pate in any way in the picket line ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Absolutely not.
Mr. Kennedy. I am interested in your testimony with respect to the
advice given you by your attorney when you called and asked what
to do about it.
He said in effect that it would be futile to ask for an injunction.
I would surmise, as an attorney, that if the facts of the case were to
be found as you have related them, that the likelihood would be
under the governing law in Michigan that you would be entitled to
an injunction.
This is a curbstone opinion, but that would be my surmise, as an
attorney. Since the integrity of the law depends upon the integrity
of the courts, which is indispensable to the administration of justice,
and our courts have always been regarded as sacrosanct, the charge
that the courts of Wayne County would not respond in such a situa-
tion and grant the applicant his rights under the law is very serious.
I am just wondering whether you know of any instances where
efforts have been made and injunctions denied, or whether you know of
13200 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
any instances in Wayne County where injunctions have been granted
by the courts.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Well, Senator, I would say this : That there
have seen numerous instances that I have heard about. I don't recall
the names. But, anyway, the different counsel that we have been
in contact with all have the same opinion. It wasn't one man. My
brother and myself are very well known in Wayne County. We know
several attorneys and they all threw up their hands and said, "Well,
you are right. There is no use spending a lot of money going into
these courts."
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know of any case in Wayne County com-
parable to yours where an injunction has been granted by the Wayne
County courts?
Mr. Han ley Taylor. No, sir. We were hoping for that. We
thought we could set the precedent, but our counsel could not find any-
thing at all that would set that precedent. He also said at the same
time that he thought it would be a good idea if we kept a diary of all
these instances that occurred as we went along with the labor trouble.
The committee has that diary.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell me, are the judges in the State courts — I assume
you are thinking about dealing in the State courts
Mr. Han lev Taylor. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Are they appointed or elected ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. They are both elected and appointed. We
have had several appointees, because we have had some deaths lately.
Mr. Kennedy. But in normal procedures, they are elected people,
elected by the people of Wayne County ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Thank you.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. I will direct this primarily at the attorney brother.
In the election of judges in Michigan, they are elected on a non-
partisan designation on the ballot, is that correct?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir ; that is correct.
Senator Curtis. Do you happen to know whether it is a practice of
unions in Michigan to endorse judges in the election campaigns?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. I know that is so, Senator; yes.
Senator Curtis. It is done by a number of the unions?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir ; it is.
Senator Curtis. I recall that my investigation shows that the UAW
endorsed judges and campaigned in many instances quite vigorously
for them, even though they are on the nonpartisan ballot and even
though they occupy judicial positions. Does that conform with your
knowledge of the situation ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir.
That is correct.
Senator Curtis. That is also true with school officials, isn't it ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Do you mean that the union endorses
Senator Curtis. That the elected school officials, the unions endorse ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir ; they do.
Senator Curtis. And that likewise is nonpartisan ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. I believe so.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13201
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Senator Church. May I ask one more question, Mr. Chairman ?
In connection with the practice of endorsing candidates, let us say
in Wayne County, are either of you acquainted with the practices of
the Teamsters' Union? That is to say, does the Teamsters Union
endorse candidates for the judgeship offices in Wayne County?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. I would not know that.
Senator Church. Mr. Dawson Taylor, do you know whether or not
it is the practice of the Teamsters Union to endorse
Mr. Dawson Taylor. I am afraid I don't know anything more than
I read in the newspapers and that is that they have come out strenu-
ously through their memberships.
Senator Church. Have you read in the newspapers notices or adver-
tisements to the effect that the Teamsters are endorsing certain candi-
dates in the election and thus giving public notice through the news-
paper to the public that they are doing that?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. I don't recall in particular having seen
Teamster advertisements or anything like that.
Senator Church. So neither one of you could testify as of your
own knowledge that this is a practice of the Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. No, sir.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. No ; we could not.
Mr. Kennedy. I might say, Senator, that we know it to be a fact.
In looking through the books and records of the Teamsters locals, in-
cluding Mr. Holla's 299 in Detroit, we have found that they con-
tribute a considerable amount of money to certain of their candidates.
Senator Church. Make campaign contributions to candidates
standing for election to judgeships?
Mr. Kennedy. Including judges, that is correct.
The Chairman. Did you ascertain whether these contributions
were made out of treasury funds, union funds, or out of a voluntary
fund, where donations had been received ?
Mr. Kennedy. They are out of union funds.
The Chairman. I think that should be cleared up. Personally,
I have no objection to anybody soliciting money to help a poor can-
didate running for office. I don't think they have a right to take it
out of union treasuries and splash it around.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, at that point, I think there are a
number of States that have no prohibition against — and, of course,
these judges are not Federal officials
The Chairman. There is no Federal law at present, as I recall,
against them making a contribution to candidates for State offices out
of union treasuries.
Senator Curtis. Only here, here is one country boy who refuses to
admit they can raise that much money by voluntary collection. We
have never been able to do it in any other sphere.
The Chairman. Well, they put it in a voluntary category, but I
have been a little suspicious at times that it was not all voluntary
from the standpoint of the contributor, even though it is kept in a
voluntary fund. But this, I understand, what we are talking about
here, has no pretense of voluntary at all, but came out of the union
treasury.
Mr. Kennedy. That is right.
21243— 58— pt. 35 6
13202 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Hanley Taylor, I would like to finish up now. You were ap-
proached, were you not, by an individual from the Nathan W. Shef-
f erman office about settling the strike ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Mr. Kennedy, I was approached by an in-
dividual, but I did not know with whom he was associated. I hap-
pened to know that Mr. Fawkes
Mr. Kennedy. What was his name ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Mr. Robert "Scotty" Fawkes.
Mr. Kennedy. F-a-w-k-e-s?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. I believe that is right. I had known Mr.
Fawkes for 20 years or so, he had been friendly with the family, had
bought cars from us, and so forth. About 2 days after the pickets
appeared in front of our place, Scotty came in to see me. I had only
seen him once or twice in the last few years.
He asked me if I would like to get rid of the pickets. I said I
sure would, and by this time I was fit to be fried anyway, I guess.
But he said, "Well, maybe I can take care of it."
I had heard rumbles of what he was doing. I had heard he was
doing labor relations of some way. He made a telephone call from
my phone and talked to a "George." I never did know what the last
name of the man was.
Mr. Kennedy. He didn't identify him as George Kamenow ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. He didn't. He just called him George on the
phone and wanted to set up an appointment for me for that after-
noon. This was about 10 o'clock in the morning. I dodged the
issue until I could get my feet on the ground and find out where we
were going, because it was happening too fast. I immediately called
my counsel, and Mr. Rooney said, "Hanley, if you have anything to
do with that man, get another attorney," and that was enough for me.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say would happen, if you had some-
thing to do with him ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Well, he said that he would get off the case
immediately.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say about him ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. I don't understand you, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say about him ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. About Mr. Fawkes ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Did he indicate what would happen?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. He said "You will be able to get rid of the
pickets, but it will be an awfully high price you will pay for it."
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say that there might be an investigation of
Mr. Fawkes some time ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. As I recall ; yes, he did, he did not say who
would investigate, but he said "Some day this will come to light."
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Well, he merely said that this kind of tactics
in the labor field would have to come to light.
Mr. Kennedy. And that you would end up
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes; and that I would end up in the soup
with the rest of them.
Mr. Kennedy. And be testifying in Washington ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. When Mr. Fawkes came in to you, did he say that
this kind of service would just cost how much money ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13203
Mr. Hanley Taylor. I got the impression it was merely being an
old friend of mine that he would take care of us and it was merely
a service.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate to you that he had been able to
perforin the same kind of service for others ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes. He told me that point, that that was
his business, that he was settling strikes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he name any other company that he settled a
strike for %
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes. I believe that he said he settled the
Charlie Olds strike.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, the Charlie's Oldsmobile strike was
a strike settled under very suspicious circumstances. The union had
organized the employees, and the employees had voted to belong to
the union. Then the Shefferman Agency, where Mr. Fawkes is an
employee, came in, and Mr. Kierdorf, who had organized the em-
ployees, walked away and never signed a contract. It is something
we developed here in testimony last year.
Did you know that Mr. Fawkes worked directly for George Kame-
now?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. No ; I did not. I had completely lost track
of Scotty.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever hear of the relationship between George
Kamenow and Mr. Hoffa ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. No ; I had not.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know how close they became ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Later on during the summer, I read in the
newspapers — I believe it was in this committee in the newspapers.
That was the only knowledge I had.
Mr. Kennedy. But were you convinced that if you paid this money,
made this arrangement, that the pickets would be removed?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes ; I was.
Scotty told me that he knew the men out in the picket line. I believe
their names were Petroff and Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he knew both Petroff and Kierdorf?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes ; and said "I will have them removed right
away."
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dawson Taylor, there were acts of violence dur-
ing the course of the strike ; were there not ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Yes, there were.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Kierdorf
himself ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. No, sir. I never met Mr. Kierdorf or Mr.
Petroff. I saw them walking in the picket line. I never met them
until we finally got down to a discussion of my recognition of the
union as representing the employees. That happened about 5 or 6
weeks after the beginning of the strike.
Mr. Kennedy. What steps did you take to get the pickets removed ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Well, the pickets
Mr. Kennedy. Just briefly.
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes. The pickets became union organizers
only within about a week, because the employees, I am convinced, were
convinced of my sincerity in closing that shop. They could see that
I was sincere on it.
13204 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. I am sure-
Mr. Dawson Taylor. So the pickets were only union organizers
until a fellow named Al Vignali came into my office trying to act as a
mediator, to try and settle the strike.
The first thing he did was say "I will pull the pickets off right now."
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to that time, hadn't the pickets left for a short
period of time ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. I truthfully can't say, and I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. On Friday, June 21, had you made arrangements to
sue Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't you notify the Teamsters that you were
going to bring suit against him ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Well, these negotiations had been carried on
by Mr. Koney who was my attorney and he handled it.
Mr. Kennedy. There is a note here on your book that you were
going to make arrangements for subpenaing Mr. Hoffa. That is at 10
o'clock in the morning and at 11 : 30 in the morning the strike was
called off.
Mr. Dawson Taylor. We sued them over what we thought and
claimed was an illegal strike.
Mr. Kennedy. They, however, did send the pickets back at a later
time ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir ; they did.
Mr. Kennedy. And ultimately the picket line went away, did it?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. When I agreed to sit down and talk to Mr.
Kierdorf and Petroff.
Mr. Kennedy. Was the question of an overall contract for your
cleaning and overalls ever discussed with you ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. No, sir ; it never was.
Mr. Kennedy. Was there any discussions in October of 1957 about
that matter?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. In October of 1957, this was probably 6 weeks
after my strike had been settled, and it had been settled by my merely
recognizing the union or agreeing to recognize the union as represent-
ing my employees, but I did refuse to rehire the old Homer employees.
About 6 weeks later Mr. Kierdorf came into my office or came into
my agency, and since Mr. Clifford Knight, who is my general man-
ager, had handled all of my problems with the union, he was a big
burly fellow and a tough fellow and I felt better having him as a
front man against the Teamsters than myself, and I had him talk to
Mr. Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us what happened ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. The upshot of this meeting between Kierdorf
and Knight was that Mr. Knight came to me and said that he would
suggest we switch our linen contract to Star, I believe Star Coverall,
and I truthfully don't even know the name of it, but it was whatever
was the name of it, and I found out later on it was the name of it.
About 2 weeks later I was signing some checks, paying the bills, and
I found I was paying a bill to Dawson Industrial Laundry.
Mr. Kennedy. Let me understand this. Herman Kierdorf, the
business agent for Mr. Hoffa's Joint Council 43, came in and had this
conversation with you, and you referred him to your general manager,
is that right ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13205
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Your general manager then related to you that Mr.
Kierdorf suggested that you shift your overall business ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And give it to Dawson or Star ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Give it to Star.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did he also relate to you that Mr. Kierdorf
said that you would have no more difficulty with the union ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. The statement or the impression that was
given to me at that time was by Knight himself. He said in his opin-
ion by so doing we would have no more trouble with the union.
Mr. Kennedy. And you understood that you were going to switch
to Star, but then you found about 2 weeks later that actually you
were giving your overall business to Dawson ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Dawson Industrial Laundry ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you signed a recognition agreement that you
spoke about earlier with the union, and with the understanding that
3rou would make terms of the contract at a later time ; is that correct ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Yes, sir ; that is right.
Mr. Kennedy. The contract was signed on the 22d of August, but
you were to sign a contract with the union by the 1st of December
1957 ; is that right ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. We had agreed to sit down and discuss a
contract.
Mr. Kennedy. It was agreed by and between the company and the
local union that on or about the 1st day of December they will meet
for the purpose of discussing and negotiating a formal contract con-
taining all other terms and conditions ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. In between the time that this agreement was signed,
the 22d of August, and the 1st of December, Mr. Kierdorf came into
your office?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And it was then that the switch was made, or sup-
posedly, to Star Coverall but in fact to the Dawson Industrial Laun-
dry?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And did he ever come back then to discuss the terms
of the contract ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Probably a form letter of the Teamsters was
sent to Mr. Eoney, that is a 90-day interval there, and Mr. Petroff
called Mr. Honey, and Mr. Eoney just stalled them off. It was before
Christmas and business was bad, and they expected to have good busi-
ness then, and so Mr. Eoney merely stalled them off and said, "We are
not prepared to sit down and discuss it," and we didn't hear any more
about it.
Mr. Kennedy. The union never pressed it ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And Kierdorf, from what was related to you in the
conversation with the general manager, it was indicated that, if you
switched your laundry business, you would have no more difficulty or
trouble with the union ?
13206 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Dawson Taylor. That is correct.
The Chairman. Let me present you this copy of this recognition
agreement and have you identify it, please, sir.
(A document was handed to the witness. )
M r. I )AW6i >n Taylor. This is correct, sir ; this is my signature.
The Chairman. 1 1 may be made exhibit No. 8 for reference.
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 8" for reference
and may be found in the tiles of the select committee.)
Senator Church. Mr. Taylor, 1 take it that your employees at your
establishment are still members of the Teamsters Union, is that cor-
rect, by virtue of the recognition agreement that you entered into in
August?
Mr. 1 )awson Taylor. The part of the recognition agreement that is
my agreement to recognize the union included a proviso that I did not
have to rehire the old Homer employees. The reason they went out
of business was because the old Homer employees were bad employees
and they were not productive and not good workers.
Senator Church. I understand that, but, with regard to your em-
ployees that are now working for you, have they been members of the
union since August 22 I
Mr. Dawson Taylor. I believe that about four are the original crew
who first paid their initiation to the Teamsters when the Teamsters
tried the organizational strike. They have never paid, or I am confi-
dent they have never paid, their dues since then, and they are strongly
antagonistic to the Teamsters now. They are not Teamsters other'
than the fact that thev are on their books as having originally signed
that.
Senator Church. "What about your other employees besides the four
that were there '.
Mr. I )awson Taylor. They are not members of any union, as far as
I know.
Senator Church. They are not paying dues, so far as you know,
to this union ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. No.
Senator Church. And the four who were there at the time of this
recognition agreement are no longer, to your knowledge, paying dues ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. That is right.
Senator Church. Since the recognition agreement was entered into,
you have never negotiated with the union with regard to wages or
working conditions or working hours for the employees ?
Mr. Dawson Taylor. No, sir.
Senator Church. Mr. Kennedy, may I ask a question about Mr.
Fawkes? I am not quite clear as to just who Mr. Fawkes was, and
what his identity was.
Mr. Kennedy. He worked for the Shefferman organization, and he
worked out of Michigan under Mr. George Kamenow. Mr. Kamenow
was Mr. Shefferman's representative in Michigan, and we developed
some cases in Michigan regarding the Shefferman organization and
Mr. Kamenow last year, and Mr. Kamenow appeared before the com-
mittee and took the fifth amendment. We will be going into Mr. Ka-
menow's relationship with Mr. Hoffa, himself, later on during this
month.
Senator Church. Mr. Hanley Taylor, may I ask you : when Mr.
Fawkes came to you, and you were having your difficulty and indi-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13207
cated that he could settle it, did he give to you the terms or the way-
he would settle it, or what was the proposal that he made ?
Mr. Hanlet Taylor. It was more or less on a friendly, personal
basis, and there wasn't any proposition made, or he didn't do anything
that I thought was out of line at all. He just said, "I will get rid of
these guys for you," and that is what it amounted to, and he said, "It
won't cost you much."
Senator Church. Did it cost you anything?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Not a cent, because after that I called my at-
torney, and he said, "Nothing doing."
Senator Church. You had no further dealings with Mr. Fawkes ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. No.
Senator Church. Did he have any further proposal to offer with
regard to how much it was going to cost ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. He called me once or twice within the next
24-hour period.
Senator Church. You had no more dealings with him, and it wasn't
because of his intervention or anything he did, so far as you know,
that these pickets were later removed ?
Mr. Hanley Taylor. They went on for 2 or 3 weeks after that ; the
pickets stayed out in front.
Senator Church. Thank you.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Mr. Kennedy. That is all.
The Chairman. The committee thanks you very much, and I may
say to you that, so far as we are able to do so, we will try to keep an
eye on this situation and follow developments, if any, with interest,
and we invite your continued cooperation.
Mr. Dawson Taylor. Thank you, Senator.
Mr. Hanley Taylor. Thank you, Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. Mrs. Nancy Dawson.
The Chairman. Mrs. Dawson, will you come around, please ? Will
you be sworn, please ?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence given before this Senate
select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Dawson. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. NANCY DAWSON
The Chairman. Will you state your name, your place of residence,
and your present business or employment, please ?
Mrs. Dawson. My name is Nancy Dawson, and I live in Detroit,
Mich., and I am president of the Dawson Industrial Laundry.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Will you pull the micro-
phone a little closer to you, so we will be able to hear you ? May I
inquire, do you waive counsel ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mrs. Dawson, you are owner of the Dawson Indus-
trial Laundry?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been in the industrial-laundry
business ?
13208 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mrs. Dawson. Well, I have my own company since October of 1956.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you actually been working in the
business or interested in the business?
Mrs. Dawson. Approximately 4 years.
Mr. Kennedy. Mrs. Dawson, prior to coming here to testify, did
you receive any threats of any kind regarding your testimony ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate to the committee when you first
received a threat and from whom?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, it was a Wednesday afternoon in July, and I
can't remember the exact date, but about the 16th, I believe. I was at
home, and it was late in the afternoon, and my secretary called me
from the office, and she was quite upset, and she said she had a
telephone message for me that she didn't understand, and I asked her
to read it to me over the telephone.
As I remember the substance of the conversation, it was Hoffa, of
the Teamsters, called, ''If you keep your mouth shut there won't be
any trouble," or something to that effect, or very close to that.
The Chairman. Who is your secretary?
Mrs. Dawson. Virginia Slepak.
The Chairman. Did she at the time make a notation of this tele-
phone call and the message she was instructed to give you?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir, on the normal telephone pad, as we keep
messages.
The Chairman. Have you seen that message ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Her notes ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Could you identify them? I will ask you to
examine this memorandum that I present to you and state if you
identify it, please.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir; that is the message.
The Chairman. Do you recognize the handwriting on that tele-
phone slip?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that the handwriting of your secretary whom
you have just identified?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. This telephone slip and the notation thereon will be
made exhibit No. 9, and it may be printed in the record as read. It
is brief.
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 9" for reference,
and will be found in the appendix on p. 13271.)
The Chairman. The Chair will read the message : The date is July
9, 1958, 1 : 50 p. m.
Message : Tell Mrs. Dawson to keep her mouth shut and all will be all right.
There will be no trouble. Signed, Virginia Slepak.
Is that correct?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Did that message upset
you any?
Mrs. Dawson. A little.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13209
The Chairman. Was that the only one you received?
Mrs. Dawson. No, sir.
The Chairman. Tell us about the next one.
Mrs. Dawson. Well, exactly a week later, on a Wednesday
The Chairman. Exactly a week later?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, on a Wednesday and, I believe, approximately
the same time of day, Mrs. Slepak had another message, and I don't
believe there was any actual name identifying that message, and the
message stated it was from one of my competitors.
The Chairman. It was from one of your competitors?
Mr. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. On this other one, I notice that your secretary
made this notation, and after the word "from" it says "from Team-
sters, Mr. Hoffa."
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So whoever was calling was calling for the Team-
sters ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, that is what the message states.
The Chairman. Was it Mr. Ho if a himself who called ; do you know ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, I don't know, and I wasn't in the office.
The Chairman. But, at any rate, she spontaneously, writing it
down, and taking the message, and who the call was from, made a
notation : "Teamsters, Mr. Hoffa."
Mrs. Dawson. Well, she related it to me, and, as she wrote it on the
telephone message, she said, "Hoffa, of the Teamsters."
The Chairman. Hoffa, of the Teamsters ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, you say you received another message in a
similar way ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did your secretary make a notation of that call?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Could you identify her writing again ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; I think I can.
The Chairman. I hand you here what purports to be a message to
Mrs. Dawson, dated July 16, 1958, and the time is 1 p. m. I will ask
you to examine this telephone slip and state if you identify this and if
you identify the handwriting thereon.
(A document was handed to the witness.)
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; that is the message as she gave it to me when
I came into the office.
The Chairman. This one will be made exhibit No. 10, and it will be
printed in the record at this point.
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 10" for reference
and may be found in the appendix on p. 13271.)
The Chairman. I am going to ask counsel to read that message into
the record, and it may be printed accurately in full; but just for our
information at the moment, let counsel read it.
Mr. Kennedy. It is to Mrs. Dawson, dated July 16, 1958; time,.
1 p. m. :
Message : Not a threat. Do not want this trouble. Telling you to be careful.
Don't want anything to happen to her or her family. Please leave us alone.
Know she has been seeing Salinger. (Would not give name; just one of the
13210 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
competitors in the business.) Everything was fine until she came into the busi-
ness. We have seen her with that little dago Salinger. Don't know if she is
going bankrupt, but we all have families to feed. This is not meant to be a
threat, but please tell her.
The Chairman. Notwithstanding it says "Not meant to be a threat,"
how could you interpret it otherwise ?
Mrs. Dawson. I don't think that there is any other interpretation
possible.
The Chairman. You accepted it as a threat ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
The Chairman. As you did the first message ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I don't know what other information you are going
to give us, but I think the American people, all of them, particularly
the womanhood of this country, should applaud you for having the
courage to come here. If this Government isn't big enough to protect
you, God save the country.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you also received another threat, did you \
Mrs. Dawson. I am confused now.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a conversation with an individual
that you know in Detroit, and did he relate to you a message?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell the committee about that ?
Mrs. Dawson. "Well, he told me that someone had visited him and
in the course of the conversation had remarked that it was too bad
that Mrs. Dawson was a good-looking woman and it would be a shame
to ruin her. That is to ruin her appearance, or something of that
nature.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that after discussing the fact that you might
be testifying before the committee or in contact with the committee?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes ; that I was under subpena.
The Chairman. Was that subsequent to these messages or before ?
Mrs. Dawson. No ; it was after those messages.
The Chairman. Subsequent to these messages, these telephone mes-
sages ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
(At this point, the following were present : Senators McClellan,
Church, Mundt, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. I have conferred with counsel about it, but I am
not going to ask you to give the name publicly of the man who brought
you that message. I am sure you have given it to us.
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I don't think we will put it on the record at this
time.
Mr. Kennedy. There is a fourth matter involving threats, Mr. Chair-
man, which we will bring out and develop in the course of the testi-
mony.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. I would like to now get into the overall business.
Could you tell us a little bit about your company, Mrs. Dawson ?
Mrs. Dawson. Do you mean what kind of company it is ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. What do you do ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13211
Mrs. Dawson. Well, we rent work clothes. That is, coveralls, shirts,
and pants to men, and we rent them to them. We deliver them clean,
pick the soiled up, wash them, press them, repair them, and, of course,
return them for a certain fee each week.
Mr. Kennedy. During the course of 1957, in approximately Septem-
ber of 1957, were you contacted by the Ellsworth Ford Co.?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you been servicing the Ellsworth Ford Co. ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; I was.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a conversation with them at that
time?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate what they said ?
Mrs. Dawson. Mr. Ellsworth, Jr., called me and asked me if I would
come out, that he wanted to talk to me. I asked him if there was any
trouble with the account or anything that was upsetting in the service,
or anything like that, and he said no, he just wanted to talk to me. I
believe it was a Friday afternoon, in September. I drove out to see
him. While I was talking to him, he said, "Nancy, I am sorry, but
I am afraid I am going to have to change laundry suppliers."
I was quite shocked about it, because he had already told me that he
was very satisfied with the service, that everything was fine. I said,
"Why?'^
He said certain— I believe he used the word — pressures, or business
things, had come up and he was going to be forced to change the
account. He would not give me any additional information.
I was extremely upset about it. I asked him the name of the com-
pany that he was going to give the account to, and he told me.
Mr. Kennedy. What company did he tell you ?
Mrs. Dawson. Star Coverall.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he tell you anything about the ownership or
did you discuss the ownership at that time ?
Mrs. Dawson. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you known who owned Star Coverall ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And that was Mr. Vincent Meli ?
Mrs. Dawson. Mr. Meli and Mr. Lehr and another gentleman.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Eisenberg ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes. That is the man.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know anything about the background of
Mr. Meli?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, nothing really definite. I mean just the things
we have heard. Of course, I did know who Mr. Meli's father was, and
I did know that his reputation was not the best.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Angelo Meli ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that all he told you at that time ?
Mrs. Dawson. That was just about all. I mean, as a saleswoman,
naturally I try to do everything I could to talk to try to keep the
account, but I did not seem to be able to make any headway with him
at that particular time.
Mr. Kennedy. Shortly afterward, were you contacted by the Daw-
son Taylor Co., Mr. Dawson Taylor ?
13212 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mrs. Dawson. Well, yes; that was sometime in October. I can't
actually remember whether I called Mr. Taylor or whether he called,
me, because I did business with them in their Livernois store, and we
have always been quite friendly. I have known them for a good num-
ber of years, and I talk to them quite often. During the course of
the conversation, we discussed the overall business a little.
Mr. Kennedy. Prior to going into that conversation, I would like
to ask you whether you sent a telegram to the Star Coverall ?
Mrs. Dawson. I certainly did.
Mr. Kennedy. After they took the account of Ellsworth Ford Co. ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that right ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, no ; it was not afterward.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, during the period of time that you heard they
were going to.
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, I did ; because I had a contract with the Ells-
worth Ford Co., and I wanted to be very certain that Star realized
that there was a contract in force there at that time.
The Chairman. I hand you what purports to be a copy of the tele-
gram dated September 23, 1957. I ask you to examine it and state if
this is a copy of the telegram that you have just testified about.
(The document was handed to the witness. )
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; this is the telegram that I sent.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 1 1 .
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 11" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 13272.)
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, read it into the record.
Mr. Kennedy (reading) :
Star Coverall Supply Co. : This is to advise you that this corporation has a
contract with Ralph Ellsworth Ford, Inc., to furnish to it industrial garment
supplies, which is in full force and effect, and that we will hold your company
liable for any action taken on your part to cause or tend to cause a breach of
such contract by Ralph Ellsworth Ford, Inc.
It is signed "Dawson Industrial Laundry." Is that correct?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. So you had this conversation with Mr. Ellsworth,
and then you were contacted by Dawson Taylor or somebody from that
company ; is that right ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, I was talking to Dawson Taylor on the tele-
phone ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he relate anything to you ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he told me that he had been contacted by a
gentleman named Mr. Kierdorf .
Mr. Kennedy. Kierdorf ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Herman Kierdorf ?
Mrs. Dawson. I had not heard of him before. I did not know who
he was. I asked Dawson who he was. I said, "How do you spell his
name?"
I didn't understand it when he told me over the telephone. Then he
identified him as, I believe he said, a business agent for the Teamsters
Union.
Mr. Kennedy. For the joint council ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13213
Mrs. Dawson. Well, at that time I didivt know anything about the
joint council.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he identify him as
Mrs. Dawson. He identified him as a business agent for the Team-
sters Union.
Mr. Kennedy. He said he had been contacted by Mr. Kierdorf %
Mrs. Dawson. That he had been contacted by Mr. Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. And anyone else %
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he simply told me that Mr. Kierdorf had sug-
gested that the overall business for the Grand River Chevrolet store
that Mr. Taylor had recently purchased be given to the Star Cover-
all Co.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate that it was pointed out to him that
his company would have continued union trouble unless they turned
over the business to Star Coverall \
Mrs. Dawson. As I understand it, it was not quite that way. It was
simply that he would not have any trouble if this favor were granted.
Mr. Kennedy. Was Joseph Lehr, Joe Lehr, mentioned at that time,
do you remember ?
Mrs. Dawson. I believe his name was mentioned; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Then did you make a contact with an individual who
was a close personal friend of Angelo Meli \
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And you asked them to intercede for you ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Shortly after you made that contact, did you receive
a message from Mr. Joe Lehr ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes. I talked to Mr. Lehr on the telephone. At
that time we made an appointment to meet and discuss our problems.
This was prior to the time that the Star Coverall Co. took the Ells-
worth account from me. It had been discussed but they had not taken
the account.
Mr. Kennedy. So that we get that straight, when you talked to
Ralph Ellsworth, he just told you that the plans were that he was
going to do that.
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Actually, they did not get the account until some
time later ; is that right ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, they were going to get it right away, and I did
intercede enough so that they agreed to let me keep it for a short time.
Mr. Kennedy. So that was still in the air ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes ; it was still in the offing.
Mr. Kennedy. So Mr. Lehr contacted you. Could you tell us
Avhether you met with Mr. Lehr personally ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; I did. I had lunch with him.
Mr. Kennedy. When was this ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, it was a Wednesday, and it was either the lat-
ter part of September or the early part of October. I don't remember
the exact date.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell us what you discussed at that time,
please ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, of course, I tried to talk Mr. Lehr out of taking
the account from me, and at that time he had received my telegram.
13214 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
He kind of laughed at it. I had also, by the way, informed the Ells-
worth people that I had sent the telegram to Mr. Lehr.
He told me that he was going to take the account. I asked him
not to, repeatedly. I don't remember the exact conversation, but he
said something about, well, somebody had interceded for him and he
had to save face, he could not back out of something now. And any-
way, he had already purchased the garments and had the account, as we
say, stocked, so he was ready to deliver it.
He made a tentative promise that he would return the account to
me or he would get me enough business to equal what I had lost.
Mr. Kennedy. During this conversation, was Angelo Meli's name
mentioned?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes. Mr. Lehr did mention Mr. Meli, and he men-
tioned that he was a very close friend of his and a very fine person
who had done a great deal to help him.
Mr. Kennedy. That Mr. Meli had done a great deal for the com-
pany?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he also mention Mr. Herman Kierdorf ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he referred to a gentleman by the name of
"Doc," and I did not know who he was talking about. I asked him
who he was, and he mentioned Mr. Kierdorf. That was the second
time that I had heard the name.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say his relationship was with Mr. Kier-
dorf?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, that they were very close friends. Then he
showed me a card he had with Mr. Kierdorf's name on it. That was
the first time, to be perfectly honest with you, that I realized there was
any connection. Honestly, I didn't even know there was anything
like a joint council that existed, I am sorry to say.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he suggest that you meet with Mr. Kierdorf
then?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; he did.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you meet with Kierdorf ?
Mrs. Dawson. No, sir ; I did not,
Mr. Kennedy. You refused to meet with him at that time ?
Mrs. Dawson. No ; that was on a Wednesday and Mr. Lehr suggested
that I have lunch with he and Mr. Kierdorf on Friday. I told him
I did not know, that I would have to think about it. The following
evening, Mr. Lehr called me and I told him that I did not want to meet
with him, that I did not think I should.
(At this point, Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. When Mr. Lehr called you later, did he discuss with
you the Ellsworth account ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he simply told me that Mr. Kierdorf told him
that he should not take the account.
Mr. Kennedy. That he should not take the Ellsworth account. Was
this because of the conversation you had had with the friend of Angelo
Meli?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, of course, I really don't know why he said it.
He just made that statement.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say he was going to make it up to you in some
other way ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13215
Mrs. Dawson. At that time he didn't actually tell me whether he
was or was not going to take the account. But shortly after that, he
visited my office and told me he was going to take it, and he asked me
if I was going to sue him if he did take it.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you tell him ?
Mrs. Dawson. I told him if he returned the equal portion of business
to me that I would not; and if he did not that I would.
Mr. Kennedy. During this period of time, did you have a conver-
sation with somebody from the Dawson Taylor Chevrolet Co. about
the situation there ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; I had talked to Dawson on the telephone.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the conversation you related to us already?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any further conversations with any-
one
Mrs. Dawson. Yes. I went to see Dawson, because when he first
took the Chevrolet agency, he told me that anytime he was able to, he
would try and give me his coverall business. He didn't make a definite
commitment, but he did tell me that he would consider me.
Mr. Kennedy. The Dawson Taylor Co. had been served by the
Domestic Linen Co. ; is that right ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to anybody from the Domestic Linen
Co. that told you they were losing this account to Dawson Taylor ?
Mrs. Dawson. No, sir ; not at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you subsequently ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; afterward I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate what happened ?
Mrs. Dawson. I went in to call on Mr. Taylor and he took me in to
Mr. Knight, who was his general manager. I was familiar with Mr.
Knight. I had met him before. I had serviced an account that he
formerly had been with. We discussed the overall business. As I
remember, Mr. Taylor had been out of town. He had been away for
maybe 4 or 5 days and had just gotten back that morning. He was
quite busy, but he did come in to the office for a few minutes, and he
again related the instance about the contact from Mr. Kierdorf . He
did leave the room. I just can't remember exactly when, but Mr.
Knight and I were talking about the overall business and he told me
that it was simply a coincidence that Mr. Kierdorf had happened
to make that call, because he had been familiar with the Star Coverall
Co. from another agency where he had been a manager, and that he
had told them they could have the account, and that they had meas-
ured the account but had never delivered it. He didn't know why
He said for some reason that he did not explain that he was a little
angry with the Domestic Linen people and that they were not going
to have the account regardless of who had it. Then he called on the
telephone to find out whether or not he was going to deliver the gar-
ments.
I don't know what Mr. Lehr's side of the conversation was, because
I was in the office and I only heard the one side, and he told him that
I was in his office and that I wanted the account. I think he ques-
tioned him to find out whether or not he was going to deliver it.
13216 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Then he said, "Mr. Lehr would like to speak to you, Mrs. Dawson,"
and he gave me the telephone. Do you want me to go into that conver-
sation ?
Mr. Kennedy. Just briefly, if you would.
Mrs. Dawson. Mr. Lehr said, "I just fixed it up for you; Mr.
Knight is going to give you that account."
He said, "You see, I am going to make it even with you" or some-
thing like that, "for the Ellsworth account."
I said, "No, I am sorry, Joe, that just does not hold water with me,
because I have known the Taylors a long, long time, and Dawson
always promised me that if he ever made a change, he would give
me the account."
That was the end of the conversation and they did give me the
account at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. The}^ did ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you talked with anybody from the Domestic
Linen Co. about their losing the account ?
Mr. Dawson. Not until after that. Then I had a phone call from
Mi-. Rabitte, who, I believe, is sales manager.
Mr. Kennedy. R-a-b-i-t-t-e ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What happened?
Mrs. Dawson. He wanted to make some kind of a peaceful agree-
ment with me. He was very angry that I was taking the Dawson
Taylor account, but he also said that he could understand and that
he could not tight it. But he said because of the friendship there
he said, "I just don't understand. We knew that Star was going to
take the account, that they were going to do that the same way they
took the Ellsworth account from you."
I said, "What do you mean ?"
He didn't go completely into an explanation, but he said, "Well, we
could stop Mr. Kierdorf ," and I said, "How % And if you wanted to
help me, why didn't you stop what was going on at Ellsworth ?"
He laughed and said, "Well, Mr. Kierdorf isn't the biggest person
in the Teamsters."
Mr. Kennedy. But he knew it had been done in the same way as
you lost the Ellsworth account ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, that is what he said.
Mr. Kennedy. And he indicated that he thought he was going to lose
this account in the same manner and was surprised that you ended up
with the account %
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Evidently Mr. Lehr had given permission or had
told the sales manager that it was all right for you to take the Dawson
Taylor account %
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Mr. Joseph Lehr after that? Did
you meet again with him ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir ; I did.
Mr. Kennedy. That was when ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he stopped in my office one morning, one day.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that November 1 ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13217
Mrs. Dawson. Yes ; it was ; a Friday, shortly after lunch, or normal
lunch time, but I had not had a chance to get out to get anything to
eat yet. He said he wanted me to make a call with him on an account.
I told him I was just going out to get some coffee, so he went with me.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate what happened ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, we went out. We went to a restaurant and I
had a sandwich and some coffee and we talked for a while. Then he
told me he was going to take me over to an account that he would be
able to help me get, and that this would more or less be in retaliation
or in payment for the Ellsworth account.
Mr. Kennedy. So did he take you any place then ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir. He took me to a Chevrolet dealership on
Jefferson.
Mr. Kennedy. Jefferson Chevrolet Co. ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. He took you in to see Ray Tessmer ; did he ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say to Mr. Tessmer ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, I don't believe Mr. Lehr had ever met Mr.
Tessmer before.
Mr. Kennedy. You knew Mr. Tessmer but Mr. Lehr did not ?
Mrs. Dawson. I knew him casually for a number of years.
Mr. Kennedy. But he did not know him?
Mrs. Dawson. I introduced him.
Mr. Kennedy. But lie was the one who said you should go to Jeffer-
son Chevrolet ?
Mrs. Dawson. He took me over there.
Mr. Kennedy. What did Mr. Lehr say when he met Mr. Tessmer?
Mrs. Dawson. First there was a little casual conversation and then
we went to Mr. Tessmers office. The two of them were talking. I did
not hear all of the conversation, but Mr. Lehr said "Ernie contacted
me and told me that I should talk to you" ; and he made some reference
to some problem which was unidentified at that point. But then Mr.
Tessmer reached over on his desk and took a telegram and turned it
around and showed it to Mr. Lehr. All I could tell you about the
telegram was that it was signed by Mr. Petroff.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, that is the telegram that we intro-
duced yesterday, the telegram from the union saying that they were
going to organize Mr. Tessmer's company.
Mr. Lehr, when he came in, said "Ernie Grissom called," is that
right \
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he said "Ernie contacted you. I am Joe Lehr."
Then he mentioned another Chevrolet dealer and said something
about — I don't know whether he used the word "intercede," but that
was the substance of it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate to him that he thought that he,
Lehr, could help him out in this matter ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, more or less. He said that he thought he
could straighten it out. Mr. Tessmer was extremely angry over what
happened, and I really don't know what happened.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say "Ernie had me contact you. He thought
1 could help you"?
Mrs. Dawson. More or less ; yes.
21243— 58— pt. 35 7
13218 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say he was a good friend of anyone ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he told Mr. Tessmer that he was a good friend
of Mr. Grissom and also that Mr. Kierdorf was worried that if Mr.
Tessmer did not cooperate with them while they were trying to quiet
down
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate he was a good friend of Kierdorf,
also?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he spoke of him by his nickname. He called
him "Doc."
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say, "I am a good friend of Doc"?
Mrs. Dawsox. Well, he said he was a friend of Mr. Grissom and Mr.
Kierdorf, but he did not use their last names.
He used "Ernie" and "Doc."
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say anything about the fact that the Team-
sters wanted these employees ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, he did. He told Mr. Tessmer he would have to
cooperate, that they would do everything they could to help him, but
they did not want this account to go to another union, and if he did
not cooperate in some way it was very likely the employees would
petition in another union.
Mr. Kennedy. TheUAW?
Mrs. Dawson. I believe that was mentioned.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we will not be able to complete this
examination.
The Chairman. We wish to thank you.
Counsel tells me that it would unduly extend the morning session
if we waited until the conclusion of your testimony.
We will have to recess at this time.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 13 a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the same
day. At this point, the following members were present: Senators
McClellan, Church, and Mundt.)
afternoon session
(At this point, members of the committee present were Senators
McClellan, Ervin, and Church.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Will Mrs. Dawson resume the witness stand ?
TESTIMONY OF MRS. NANCY DAWSON— Resumed
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy, proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mrs. Dawson, we were talking this morning about
the situation at Ray Tessmer's ; is that right ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Jefferson Chevrolet ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And you said that Mr. Lehr and you went to visit
Ray Tessmer, and you had this conversation, and you related the con-
versation that you had at that time ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you see Mr. Tessmer again ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13219
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir. Quite a while after that, though, I believe
it was, and it was after Christmas, possibly the week between Christmas
and New Year's, or maybe just after New Year's, and I am not exactly
sure.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, now, did Mr. Lehr ever speak to Tessmer about
giving you the business, the overall business ?
Mrs. Dawson. At the original meeting just after he and Mr.
Tessmer had had their conversation, he simply identified my business
as coverall business, and I think he made the remark something like,
"we will discuss that part of it later,*' or something like that.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he ever discuss it again with him, do you know ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, on a visit that Mr. Lehr and I made to Mr.
Tessmer's, I believe it was the early part of January.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you relate that, please ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, to open the conversation I think Mr. Lehr
asked Mr. Tessmer if he had any more difficulty with the men in the
shop or any more upsetness or anything like that, and as I remember
it Mr. Tessmer said some small incident that they had been able to
handle and so on, and then he made a reference to "Doc," whom I
told you he was referred to before, this is Mr. Kierdorf . He said that
he wanted Mr. Tessmer to do him a favor, and he said he wanted him
to give me his overall business, and I think Mr. Tessmer was a little
surprised that Mr. Lehr had asked me that I have the business rather
than Ms own company.
He explained that the man who presently was serving the account
had been a former friend of his, or that they had operated in the same
building, and I just am not too clear on that detail or that portion of
it, but that he really didn't feel that he could take the account. He
also mentioned that "Doc" had told him at the time that he should get
something out of his favors, so to speak, and he had interceded for the
automobile dealers with the union, and some of the favors that he had
done for these people were worth upward of $10,000.
He said he had never really taken advantage of it but all he was
asking was that the coverall business be turned over to me.
Mr. Kennedy. That was Mr. Lehr speaking ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And prior to that, Mr. Tessmer said that an old
friend of his had had the business ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, he said that.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was reluctant to give him up, and then Mr.
Lehr replied, well, he hadn't gotten much out of all of the things he
had done for the various companies in Detroit ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. And all he was asking to have the business turned
over to you, is that right ?
Mr. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you get the business then ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, Mr. Tessmer suggested that I call him in about
a month, and I believe that was about correct, and that he would see.
I think this man's name was Rosenberg, and he said this gentleman
he was presently doing business with was out of town, and when he got
back he would talk to him about it and I should call him in a month's
time or so.
13220 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I did call him maybe 5 weeks later or approximately that, it was in
February, and when I called Mr. Tessmer he was quite surprised to
hear from me. I said something about the coverall business, and he
said, "Well, Mr. Lehr was here." I think he said yesterday, and I
can't give you the date, or maybe he said a day or so ago, "with another
gentleman, and we have already contracted to give them our coverall
business."
Mr. Kennedy. That was from the Michigan Industrial Laundry?
Mrs. Dawson. I asked him the name of the company, and he said he
couldn't remember it, and I asked him if it was Michigan Industrial
or if it was Cadillac Overall, and he said, "Yes, Michigan, that is the
name."
Mr. Kennedy. Michigan Industrial Laundry ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
.Mr. Kennedy. And the business did go to Michigan Industrial
Laundry, and who owns and operates Michigan Industrial Laundry?
Mrs. Dawson. Of course, Mr. Dalitz, I believe, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Lu Dalitz. He is the head of Michigan Industrial Laundry, but
I don't know enough about the ownership, but I assume he owns it.
That is the impression I have always been given.
Mr. Kennedy. So, the business was given to his company; is that
right '.
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. His brother is Mr. Moe Dalitz, who has the Desert
Inn in Las Vegas?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the reason it was decided not to give the
business to you and to give it to Mr. Dalitz' company ?
Mrs. Dawson. "Well, I can only tell you what I think about that.
I am not sure, but I know that there was some kind of arrangement
between Mr. Dalitz and Mr. Lehr concerning a Pontiac dealership
in Pontiac, Mich., and I believe it was Mr. Dalitz wanted to take the
account.
Mr. Kennedy. Had things grown a little strained between you and
Mr. Lehr bv that time?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, yes. They had.
Mr. Kennedy. So, that would be a reason why they decided that
you were not to get it and Mr. Dalitz was to get it, instead ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes ; I would assume so.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did Mr. Lehr ever speak to you about what
he had done, or did vou hear any conversation about what Mr. Lehr
had done, for the Bill Root Chevrolet Co. ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well
Mr. Kennedy. When you were at Jefferson Chevrolet Co.?
Mrs. Dawson. There was a reference to Mr. Root at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. We had testimony on this, also, from other witnesses,
but would you relate what you know about that or what was told to
you ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, in the original conversation with Mr. Tessmer,
Mr. Lehr mentioned Mr. Root's name and said he had more or less
interceded or offered to give some aid or assistance to Mr. Root.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say that he had actually taken the picket line
off Bill Root's place?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13221
Mrs. Dawson. Mr. Kennedy, please, could they stop ? This makes
me nervous.
The Chairman. All you had to do was to request it, and I didn't
know it. Will the photographers desist?
Mr. Kennedy. Did they also mention, when you were at Jefferson
Chevrolet, about Bill Root?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes ; that was the first time that I had heard about it.
Mr. Kennedy. What was related to you about the Bill Root
Chevrolet Co.?
Mrs. Dawson. Mr. Lehr mentioned to Mr. Tessmer that — this is a
little complicated to try to portray it correctly — but I believe he said
he had contacted Mr. Tessmer and he had mentioned Mr. Lehr's name,
and he said, "We have helped Mr. Root out,'' and, whether they had or
whether they were about to at that point, I am not quite sure. But
they were sure that they could assist Mr. Tessmer in his problems, also.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he indicate at that time that they had taken the
picket line off or could take the picket line off Bill Root ?
Mrs. Dawson. Not at that time.
Mr. Kenendy. But subsequently ?
Mrs. Dawson. At a later date ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell us about that ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, Mr. Lehr had called Mr. Root and asked him
to give me his coverall business, and he said in return for a favor, so
to speak, and then he took me out to Root's Chevrolet Co. and when
we got out there Mr. Root wasn't there, but there was a gentleman
there that I have known for a good number of years, who is, I believe,
the manager, because he had formerly worked for my father-in-law,
and 1 have known him. We talked to him and, while we were talking
to him, this gentleman said something to Mr. Lehr about "that was
quite a feat or quite a stunt," and Mr. Lehr looked at him kind of
questioningly, and he said he had been so successful in removing the
picket line,
Mr. Kennedy. Did he say how much it had saved the Bill Root Co.,
his removing the picket line ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, there were several references at different times
to the fact that there was a great deal of money involved, but I couldn't
specifically make the statement that he said it at that time.
Mr. Kennedy. But the figures that were mentioned were between
$10,000 and $15,000 ; is that right \
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, did Mr. Lehr indicate how he was able to get
these picket lines removed ?
Mrs. Dawson. Only through his friendship with Mr. Kierdorf, and
he never mentioned anything else to me.
Mr. Kennedy. But it was obvious that he had a close relationship
with Kierdorf and talked about him often and he referred to him as
"the Doc" ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it ever indicated to you by Mr. Lehr as to the
future of the Star Coverall Co. in Detroit ?
Mrs. Dawson. You mean its growth ?
Mrs. Kennedy. Yes.
Mrs. Dawson. Yes; he made several remarks about the growth of
the company.
13222 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say about that, and who was going to
assist him ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, he mentioned that Mr. Hoffa — the expression
was "when Mr. Hoffa was off the pan" he would see that the Star
Coverall Co. or, I think, he said that "I would have all of the uniform
business with all of the trucking companies in Detroit."
Mr. Kennedy. Have all of the trucking companies ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was it indicated about any of the dealerships, auto-
mobile dealerships? Did he say anything about getting their
accounts ?
Mrs. Dawson. It wasn't a definite statement, but there were cer-
tainly references to the fact that the dealerships would be Star Cover-
all accounts.
Mr. Kennedy. Because the Teamsters could stop them from getting
automobiles?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, they mentioned something about the fact that,
if the people didn't cooperate, they could delay shipments and sup-
plies and things like that, and, in other words, they had that power;
you know, the Teamsters.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Joe Lehr have any discussions or conferences
or conversations with you about your testifying before the committee?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, before the committee ever contacted me in
Detroit, Mr. Lehr stopped in my office and we went out and had a
cup of coffee because we couldn't talk very well there, and he was
quite upset about the fact that somebody had interviewed him or
whatever expression it is that you use, and, at that time, yes, we did
discuss it and he accused me of — I don't remember the expression he
used, but it wasn't very nice.
Mr. Kennedy. About contacting the committee ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Actually, we had been interested in the overall linen
business long before we had any conversations with this young lady,
but he spoke to you about this ?
Mrs. Dawson. He accused me of being a squealer or something like
that, and he asked me if I had said anything, and then he said, "Well,
sooner or later I will find out and, when I do, you will have a letter."
Mr. Kennedy. He said, "You will get a letter" ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you understand getting a letter meant ?
Mrs. Dawson. To be perfectly honest with you, Mr. Kennedy, I
thought it was kind of childish, the kind of thing that a 3- or 4-year-
old would do, and I really didn't think anything about it.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you think it referred to ?
Mrs. Dawson. Well, since that time, I have a rough idea of what it
refers to, but at that moment I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you learn, subsequently, it referred to, in
view of the other threats that have been made to you ?
Mrs. Dawson. It is quite common for these people to send a picture
of a hand in an envelope, and this is supposed to signify that that is
"it" for you, I guess.
Mr. Kennedy. That is a statement that he made to you at. that
time?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13223
Mrs. Dawson. He said that if he found that I was the person who
had reported him, or something, that I would get a letter, and that
would let me know what would happen to me, and that is all.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you take it with more seriousness now than you
did at that time ?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You do?
Mrs. Dawson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Had you been subpenaed to testify before the
committee at that time ?
Mrs. Dawson. No, and not when Mr. Lehr talked to me, I hadn't.
Later that same afternoon, when I got back to my office, I was con-
tacted by one of your representatives.
Mr. Kennedy. But you had not been contacted at the time you had
this conversation with him ?
Mrs. Dawson. No.
The Chairman. Are there any questions ?
Senator Church. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
(At this point, the following members were present: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Ervin, and Church.)
The Chairman. Mrs. Dawson, I know this has been quite an ordeal
for you, as I indicated earlier this morning. We are very sorry that
you have been inconvenienced to come here and tell us the story,
the experiences you have had in trying to conduct a legitimate busi-
ness, to earn a livelihood. Your experiences and what others may be
having them, where we think they are having them, but yet have
not the courage to tell us about it, such a situation in this country is
more than shocking. It is alarming.
It is a warning of a danger that has to be eradicated. I can only
say to you at this time that, on behalf of the committee, and I know
every member of this committee shares the sentiments I am express-
ing, it takes courage as you are showing today, that it took that kind
of courage to make America, to build it, and it is going to take that
kind to preserve it.
You have earned the gratitude of every decent American for what
you have done. I may say to you and others who are listening that
this committee, together with other Government agencies, are taking
every precaution that we know how for your safety.
If you get another threat, any intimidation or anything that gives
you concern, we hope you will communicate with us about it at once.
Thank you ; thank you very much.
Mrs. Dawson. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. Call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Herman Kierdorf .
The Chairman. Come forward, Mr. Kierdorf.
Be sworn, please. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you
shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Kierdorf. I do.
13224 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
TESTIMONY OF HERMAN KIERDORF, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL.
HARRY CLIFFORD ALLDER
The Chairman. Be seated. State your name, your place of resi-
dence, and your business or occupation, please, sir.
Mr. Kierdorf. My name is Herman Kierdorf. Address is 29068
Spoon Avenue, Madison Heights, Mich. I am retired.
The Chairman. What is your former business or profession, Mr.
Kierdorf?
Mr. Kierdorf. Former — may I consult my attorney, please?
The Chairman'. Yes. Well, just a moment. Do you have counsel?
Mr. Kierdorf. I have, sir.
The Chairman'. Identify yourself for the record, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Allder. My name is Harry Clifford Allder. I am a member
of the District of Columbia bar, with offices at 401 Third Street NW.
The Chairman. Thank you. Now, you may consult your attorney.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Aledfi:. Mr. Chairman, may I make a statement at this time?
The Chairman. You may make a brief statement,
(At this point, Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Allder. This witness was before the committee last fall. At
that time, he answered all questions asked, to the best of his knowl-
edge and belief. Because of a change in circumstances, particularly
the testimony given here yesterday, he has an honest apprehension
that, if he testifies now, he may be a witness against himself. There-
fore, he will be forced to decline to answer questions on this occasion.
He had read the record concerning his previous testimony, and states
that it is correct, except that the word "pardon" should have been
"paroled," and his statement that he was convicted in Ohio upon
perjured testimony is a statement of his own, in his own belief only.
Therefore, at this time in answer to the question just asked, he
relies on the record given here last fall as to what his occupation was.
Those were truthful, honest statements when made then.
The Chairman. Thank you, Counsel. I am sure the record of his
testimony last fall will reflect what his occupation is.
I believe he just testified a moment ago he was retired.
Mr. Kierdorf. Correct, sir.
The Chairman. Whatever that profession was or whatever your
business was, you have retired from that now.
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
The Chairman. When did you retire ?
Today ? Yesterday ?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, I sent in my retirement notice on, I believe it
was, May 23, effective as of August 1.
The Chairman. So you had concluded to retire some time ago ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
The Chair may state that the fact that, as the witness' counsel has
stated, circumstances have changed since the witness testified before
the committee previously, and that the witness now feels that any
testimony he gives, or some testimony that he might give, would
place him in the category of being a witness against himself, may be
a privilege under the fifth amendment that the witness is entitled to
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13225
exercise, but it is one that only he can exercise. It is the duty of this
committee to try to get from the witness information that the com-
mittee believes he has which, if given, would be of aid to the Congress
of the United States in trying to legislate in a way to protect its
citizens and to establish further and preserve law and order, as the
representatives of the people of this country who are entrusted with
the responsibilities of legislating for them believe should be done in
order to preserve the great ideals and liberties that this country has
given to her people.
So we will have to proceed, notwithstanding the compulsion on the
part of the witness to — I trust he will say respectfully — decline to
answer.
All right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You were a business agent of joint council 43 up
until today ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf. May I confer with my counsel, please ?
The Chairman. Yes, you may.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Allder. May the question be repeated, please, or read back by
the reporter ?
Mr. Kennedy. You have been a business agent of joint council 43,
have you not, in Detroit ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I rely upon my testimony that I gave previously.
My answer stands.
Mr. Kennedy. You gave that testimony back on September 24,
1957. Since September 24, 1957, to the present time, have you been
a business agent of joint council 43 ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell the committee what the change in
circumstances have been since September 24, 1957, to the present time ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I submit that the only change in
circumstances is that we have had an opportunity to investigate the
activities of Mr. Kierdorf.
At that time we had very short time to look into his activities, and
since then we have examined what Mr. Kierdorf has been doing as a
business agent of joint council 43. We now have submitted and put
into the record some evidence regarding his activities.
The Chairman. These activities that you are interrogating him
about, or propose to interrogate him about, at least in part occurred
since the witness gave his testimony last year, is that correct?
Mr. Kennedy. In part since, and in part prior to that time. They
were facts about which we did not have full knowledge.
The Chairman. At least the part which you are interrogating him
about are activities that he has pursued since he testified, and then to
go into further back and interrogate him regarding information the
committee has obtained since with respect to his activities prior to
that time ?
13226 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. That is correct.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kierdorf, you retired with full honors from
the Teamsters, from joint council 43, did you ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You were taken out
The Chairman. You see, you could be very helpful. If you re-
tired with honors and good standing and commendation from the posi-
tion you held with the Teamsters, it would be very helpful to the com-
mittee, then, if you could tell us what your activities have been so
that we might better understand what quality or character of service
has elicited their commendation and conferring of honors. It would
be very helpful to us if you could cooperate. We hope you will.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kierdorf, the president of the joint council 43
is Mr. James Riddle Hoffa.
Did he give you a letter of commendation as your retirement came
about in the Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. He took you out of the penitentiary in Ohio, and
brought you in, made you a business agent of the Teamsters. Was
he unhappy to see you retire as of today ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Allder. May I be heard, Mr. Chairman ?
I think if we analyze that last question, there are about 3 or 4 ques-
tions involved in 1.
Mr. Kennedy. No ; all I asked
Mr. Allder. Let me finish, Mr. Kennedy. If I am wrong, the Chair
will so rule. But I don't think it is fair to the witness to ask a question
like he just asked. He can ask him one part of it. But to answer
"Yes" or "No" to that question would not be an answer to anything.
The Chairman. He can state facts upon which is predicated a ques-
tion. Counsel, as I recall his question, was saying, "Mr. Hoffa brought
you out of the penitentiary and made you business agent for the
Teamsters Union. Now, is Mr. Hoffa unhappy now about your retire-
ment as of today ?"
The question is: In view of what has happened in the past, his
interest in you beforehand which caused you to become associated with
the Teamsters Union as an organization, is he now unhappy by reason
of your retirement ?
Whatever pertinency the question has simply goes to the operations
of what should be a legitimate American enterprise. It is legitimate
if so conducted. Actually, it is an institution of honor and worthiness,
in my opinion, a labor union properly conducted.
There is testimony here that is derogatory to this witness, his activ-
ities, and also to Mr. Hoffa. The witness may answer the question.
Insofar as you know, is Mr. Hoffa unhappy about your retirement
as of today ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13227
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. I may say this to you as we proceed: If counsel
states any fact as a basis or premise for a question that is in error, that
you believe is wrong, that you want to controvert, that you want to
refute or deny, you may have that privilege.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kierdorf, I would like to ask you what your
activities have been in connection with the Star Coverall Co.
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell me if the testimony that we have had
before this committee that you were performing services for the Star
Coverall Co. on behalf of Mr. Angelo Meli is correct %
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. According to the testimony that we have had, there
have been at least 8 different companies in which you has played a
role in obtaining business either for the Star Coverall Co. or for a
company that was close to Mr. Joe Lehr, who is a part owner in the
Star Coverall. They are the Chief Pontiac Co. — can you tell us
anything about that ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
(At this point, Senator Church withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. The Gib Bergstrom Pontiac Co., can you tell us
about that ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Dawson Taylor Chevrolet Co. ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. The Kollie Barrett Chrysler Co., the Ralph Ells-
worth Ford Co., the Hanley Dawson Chevrolet Co., the Bill Root
Chevrolet Co., and the Jefferson Chevrolet Co. Can you tell us any-
thing about any of those companies ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you tell us your relationship with Joe Lehr of
the Star Coverall Co.?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Angelo Meli at all about the busi-
ness of the Star Coverall Co. ?
13228 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Angel o Meli ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Senator Curtis.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator CURTIS. Are you a member of a labor union?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. What arc your principal sources of income?
Mr. Kierdorf. 1 respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Has any of your income in the last 2 years come
from labor unions ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness againset ni37self.
Senator Curtis. Has any of the income come from a business of
laundry and supplying uniforms for men engaged in mechanical and
garage work ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Have you engaged in negotiating contracts for
labor unions or settlements of any kind?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Have you engaged in picketing in the last couple
of years \
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Have you engaged in any strike
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully
Senator Curtis. In the last couple of years ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. How long have you known Jimmie Hoffa ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Do you know him ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf. May I speak to counsel, please ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf. I rely upon my testimony last fall and the answer
stands.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13229
Senator Curtis. What was that?
Mr. Kierdorf. I will have to look it up.
Senator Curtis. We have had a lot of people in here since then. I
can't remember all of them.
( The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf. The question was, Do I know Mr. Hoffa ?
Am I correct ?
Senator Curtis. That is correct.
Mr. Kierdorf. I relied on my previous testimony. Do you wish
me to read it %
Senator Curtis. Yes, please.
Mr. Kierdorf (reading).
Mr. Kennedy. Who hired you?
Mr. Kierdorf. Mr. Sam Hirst, who was then the head of the joint council
that Mr. Hoffa is in charge of now. Ray Bennett was the receiver for the local.
The local was in receivership at that time.
May I confer again for a moment ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf (reading) .
Mr. Kennedy. Did he —
I am sorry, gentlemen.
Senator Ervin. It seems to me you could answer that question very
simply without looking at the past testimony, if you haven't lost your
memory since then. The question is whether you know or knew
Jimmie Hoffa.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf (reading).
Mr. Kennedy. He went to work for the Teamsters, too, when he went out
of prison ?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he know Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. Kierdorf. No : I introduced him to Mr. Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. That is on Frank Kierdorf. How about opening
to page 5291. Do you want me to point this out to you % It is rather
interesting.
Senator Curtis. I am somewhat astounded that you have to refer
to the record to let me know whether or not you know Jimmie Hoffa.
Mr. Allder. May I make a statement, Senator ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Allder. The position this witness is taking is that he was here
last fall, September, I believe it was, and he testified here under oath.
His memory at that time was certainly better than it is now. There-
fore, he does not want to change any of the testimony he gave before,
because he has read it and he agrees with it 100 percent. What he
has just read has answered your questions, Senator. But he is now
faced with another problem.
That is a legal problem of properly asserting his privilege if he
wants to. He can only repeat this testimony here, and he^ cannot
answer questions here today without taking a chance of endangering
himself as far as contempt is concerned. That is what he is attempt-
ing to do.
This record shows the answer to your question, Senator.
13230 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. How long have you known Jimmie Hoffa ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Do you know Owen Bert Brennan ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the United States Constitution not to be a witness
against myself.
Senator Curtis. Do you know Santo Perrone?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. During the last 5 years, with the exception of
errors of computation or oversights that might be committed by any
taxpayer, have you reported your income for income-tax purposes?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy. So that we get the whole situation, because we are
having some difficulty with this witness, I would like to say this.
The question was asked on page 5291 :
You are a business representative of the joint council?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Joint council 43, Detroit?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
The Chairman. Did you so testify before?
Mr. Aelder. Unfortunately, Senator, our trouble is our page num-
bers don't correspond.
Mr. Kennedy. It is right at the beginning, probably the first page.
Mr. Allder. You have made a correct reading of his testimony
here, and I have it. If you care to, he will read this into the record
again. But that is his position, that he will read from here what he
testified to before. What you have just stated, Mr. Kennedy, is a
correct reading of his testimony. This is a correct report of his
testimony.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, we know that we are reading it cor-
rectly, but I want the witness to answer the question if he so testi-
fied before.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy (reading). That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. You are a business representative of joint council 43 in
Detroit?
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Who is the head of the joint council?
Mr. Kierdorf. James Hoffa.
Mr. Kennedy. He is the president of the joint council?
The Chairman. Did you testify that way when you were before the
committee previously ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I stand on the previous testimony as transcribed
here.
The Chairman. Did you give that testimony, and is that testimony
accurate?
Mr. Kierdorf. It is accurate.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13231
The Chairman. Thank you. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy (reading) :
You were hired by him —
referring to James Hoffa.
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes, sir.
That is correct, is it ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf. Would you read that again ?
Mr. Kennedy (reading) :
You were hired by him —
referring to James Hoffa, and your answer —
Yes, sir.
Mr. Kierdorf. That is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. And you will stand by that testimony ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I do.
Mr. Kennedy. Then further down. [Reading :]
Did you come out of the Ohio Penitentiary as a business representative of the
joint council?
Mr. Kierdorf. Within about a month after I was released.
Mr. Kennedy. You went right to see Mr. Hoffa, did you?
Mr. Kierdorf. I tried to get jobs at different places of employment, and I was
unable to do so, and having been in the union as a union man since 1907, I ap-
proached Mr. Hoffa for employment. I talked to him, and under my promise to
him that I would behave mysslf and conduct myself as a scholar and gentleman,
he gave me the opportunity to go to work.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I stand by the testimony ; that is correct.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you behaved yourself like a scholar and a
gentleman since then ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You testified before the committee previously. You
were one of the individuals that made a loan to Mr. Hoffa; we devel-
oped some further evidence and information on that, Mr. Kierdorf.
I would like to have your assistance and help in answering some ques-
tions about the so-called loan that you made in December 1952.
You gave Mr. Hoffa some money in December 1952, did you?
Mr. Kierdorf. I again rely upon my testimony here, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. I would think you could answer any questions about
that, if I restrict it to that field. We developed a good deal more in-
formation on that, I would like to have your help and assistance,
Mr. Kiersdorf , on this so-called loan.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Allder. What page is that on ? I have the volume you have.
Mr. Kennedy. It is the whole volume, with his testimony. He
talked about the loan. It starts on page 5291.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. 5296 is where the loan starts.
You made a loan to Mr. Hoffa, did you ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I rely on the record here as my previous statement.
I will read it if you wish.
13232 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. All right, read that.
Mr. Kierdorf (reading) :
You have made a loan to Mr. Hoffa, have you not?
Mr. Kierdorf. I did, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the next question?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Kierdorf (reading) :
When did you make the loan to Mr. Hoffa?
Mr. Kierdorf. I believe it was in December 1952.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. Kierdorf (reading) :
Could you tell us the circumstances under which you loaned the money to him?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. Kierdorf (reading) :
He asked me if I had any available cash and I said I did.
Mr. Kennedy. In what way did he ask you this?
Mi-. Kierdorf. Pardon?
Mr. Kennedy. Where did he ask you this?
Mr. Kierdorf. In the union hall.
I don't know if it was in his office. I believe it was in his office or he came
down to the BA's room.
Mr. Kennedy. When was this, approximately?
Mr. Kierdorf. In December, I think. 1952, some time in December. I know it
was before Christmas because my wife and I were going to Florida over the
holidays and I was unable to do so because I gave the money to Mr. Hoffa. I
had enough, but I could not spare to take the holiday at the time, either.
The Chairman. As I understand you, all of the testimony you are
reading here, you state under oath is true?
Mr. Kierdorf. Yes.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. Kierdorf (reading) :
Mr. Kennedy. He just came up to you and said have you any cash?
Mr. Kierdore. He asked me, "Have you any cash that you are not using that
is available," and I said, ''What for," he said, "I would like to borrow some."
I said, "How much?" He said, "How much can you spare?"
I said, "Approximately $2,000. If you need more, I will get it for you. I
will borrow it myself or I will get it."
He said, "Now, that will help me. That will be all right."
I gave him the $2,000 the next day.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
Mr. Kierdorf (reading) :
Do you know what he wanted the money for?
Mr. Kierdorf. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell him it was with this little pile that you put aside
for the Christmas trip?
Mr. Kierdorf. No ; I told him if he wanted, I would get it, and if he needed
any more I would set that for him.
Mr. Kennedy. Did yon go to the bank to get the money?
Mr. Kierdorf. No : I had it at home.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have it hidden at home?
Mr. Kierdorf. No, not hidden. I said I had it at home.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you keep your cash at home?
Mr. Kierdorf. I do. Lots of times I keep a check or two. I earn enough
money so I can save approximately half my salary.
Mr. Kennedy. You also testified at the bottom of page 5303.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13233
Mr. Allder. We have the page.
Mr. Kennedy. At the last question there :
Do you have any other source of income or have you had any other source of
income other than your union employment?
What was your answer to that ?
Mr. Kierdorf. "No, sir; not a quarter."
Mr. Kennedy. According to the testimony, you supposedly loaned
$2,000 to Mr. Hoffa in December of 1952. Your only source of income
was the union checks that you were receiving, and you testified that
during this period of time you were receiving about $75 a week.
Were you making reports to the Michigan State Parole and Pro-
bation Board as to how much money you were saving ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
to not be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that you were making such reports and
you had to make such reports as to how much cash or how much savings
you had during part of 1952 ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. And didn't you report that in February of 1952, you
had $500 saved and in March of 1952 you had $250 saved, and in April
of 1952, you then had $350, and in May of 1952 you had $400, and in
June of 1952 you had $500. Isn't that correct ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Were you telling the truth in these reports ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Do you think you would be a witness against your-
self if you simply said "Yes," you were telling the truth ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I honestly believe that if I even am forced to answer
the questions I will be forced to be a witness against myself in viola-
tion of my rights under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that you were hard up for money, and
you didn't have any money of your own, and that on January 21, 1952,
you borrowed $1,200 from the Commonwealth Bank ; isn't that correct ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you had to go to the bank again in July of
1953 and borrow another $750 ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that you did not have the money in
December of 1952 to turn over to Mr. Hotfa, and you never had $2,000 ?
21243 — 58— pt. 35 8
13234 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that there was never any such loan
made to Mr. Hoffa, and this was j ust a coverup for cash that he had at
that time.
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a wit ness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Holla had unexplained cash that he had to get
sources for, and make an explanation before this committee, and he
brought forth this idea of having these loans from you business agents ;
isn't that correct?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilige under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. If your reports to the Michigan State Parole and
Probation Board were correct, it would have been impossible for you
to have saved s_J,000 at the time you said it was turned over to Mr.
Hoffa. Can you give us any explanation of that?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my priv-
ilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Do you realize as between your testimony here and
those reports there is an irreconcilable conflict unless you can truth-
fully say that you made an honest error in one or the other?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my priv-
ilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. You mean you don't even want to claim that you
may have made an honest error?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Are there any questions by the Senators ?
Senator Curtis. I have no questions.
Senator Erven. I just have this observation, that this witness stated
under oath that if he admitted his union membership it would tend to
incriminate him in the commission of some crime. It is enough to
make the angels weep, to have a man who has made his living largely
as a union officer, come in before a committee and state upon his oath
that it would tend to incriminate him if he admitted he had held
membership at any time in a labor organization.
That is surprising-. But it is equally surprising to see that a local
which is affiliated with the most powerful union in the United States
takes and places in a position of responsibility over American citizens
a man who had lost his rights of citizenship by being convicted of a
felony and who was just immediately released on parole from a peni-
tentiary sentence of a minimum of 10 and maximum of 25 years for
such a serious offense as armed robbery.
It seems to me that this points out the necessity of enacting at least
some of the provisions of the Kennedy-Ives bill, and especially the one
that prohibits convicted felons from being immediately admitted upon
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13235
release from penal institutions into high offices in labor unions in the
United States.
Senator Curtis. I share the view that we need some Federal legis-
lation. It is also my opinion that State legislation is needed. I believe
the time has come for the several States to license labor organizers,
union agents, and those union officials that have so much j^ower over
the workers and handle so much money. We require the lawyers who
transact their business to be licensed under State law, and their license
can be taken away from them.
The doctors connected with their health and welfare plans are
licensed. A license can be removed because of misconduct. The certi-
fied public accountants who are called in to handle the accounting work
in connection with this are subject to State control and can be removed.
I believe that unions are of such vital importance and power in our
economic life that the several States owe it to their citizens to see to
it that the individuals who perform this important work are licensed
and that license can be removed when someone so conducts themselves
not in the best interests of the workers.
It is not a case of moving the actual commission of felony or other
crime. It is a question of insuring ethical conduct. I hope that the
States do this.
The Chairman. Mr. Kierdorf , the witness who preceded you on the
witness stand, the lady, Mrs. Dawson, and also a witness who testified
yesterday, a Mr. Miller, have stated under oath that they have been
threatened in connection with their testimony here before this com-
mittee. It has not been testified definitely or positively or maybe
directly that you made the threats or had anything to do with them.
But I am going to ask you if you did %
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. I just wanted to see if you were going to by impli-
cation let the people of this country think that you would stoop that
low. I asked you the question hoping that you could with good con-
science say, uNo, sir ; I didn't."
Do you want to let the record stand as you made it ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my priv-
ilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. It will have to stand that way, and the Constitution
will have to stand as it is so far as I know, but I want to tell you what
I think a lot of people are doing today. They are converting the
worthy purposes of the fifth-amendment provisions of the Constitution
into a tool with which they dig holes for rats to crawl in.
Thank you, you may stand aside.
Senator Ervin. I have one question. What interest did you have
in procuring business for the Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. What interest did Jimmy Hoffa have in procuring
business for the Star Coverall Supply Co. ?
13236 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. Is it not a fact that on a number of occasions you
acting under the instructions of Jimmy Hotf'a had picket lines thrown
around different businesses in the Detroit area for the purpose of
compelling persons to change their patronage from various laundry
companies to the Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. And in a number of instances as a result of your
activities, if you didn't procure contracts recognizing the Teamsters
as a union representing the employees of some of these companies, and
if in every case, if you did receive money for so doing which was not
turned over to the union I
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. Did vou own any stock in the Star Coverall Supply
Co.?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. I will ask you further in virtually every case where
you succeeded in getting recognition for the Teamsters in matters of
this kind, if the employees that were unionized ever got any contracts
or any increased benefits above those they were getting at the time of
the unionization by the Teamsters ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. I will ask you as a matter of fact if many of your
activities in this connection were not activities which constituted
merely the devices for extortion ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. How many members did this local union have when
you were brought out of the penitentiary and made their business
agent ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. Did the Teamsters local of which you were business
agent have union contracts with these various companies ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. I have just one question or a couple of questions.
According to the testimony, some of the activities that you participated
in were brought to the attention of Mr. Hoffa in December of 1957.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13237
Could you tell us if Mr. Hoffa took any action whatsoever against
you in connection with these complaints ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Could you tell the committee why Mr. Hoffa feels
that he should always allow these kind of activities to go on inside
the Teamsters Union ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. And you have a nephew, Frank Kierdorf, do you
not. who operated as a business agent up in Flint, Mich., and was also
taken out of the penitentiary and made a business agent by Mr. Hoffa?
He appeared before the committee and took the fifth amendment on
shakedowns and extortion. Is he still a business agent up in Flint?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kierdorf, does Mr. Hoffa feel much better when
he is surrounded by people with police records ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Was he a part or did he have full knowledge of the
fact that you were working toward having this racket company, Star
Coverall take over the $20 million business in Detroit ?
Mr. Kierdorf. I respectfully decline to answer and exercise my
privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. I would be very greatly indebted to you if you could
suspend the fifth amendment long enough to tell me how it could
possibly incriminate you to answer a question as to whether your
nephew was a business agent of some local of the Teamsters Union in
Flint, Mich.?
Mr. Kierdorf. I honestly believe that if I am forced to answer the
questions I will be forced to be a witness against myself in violation of
my rights under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitu-
tion.
The Chairman. Is there anything further?
Stand aside, call the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Petroff.
The Chairman. Will you be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence, given before this Senate
select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Petroff. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD PETROFF, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
GEORGE S. FITZGERALD
The Chairman. State your name, and your place of residence, and
your business or occupation, please, sir.
13238 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Petroff. Edward Petroff, 18489 Westmoreland, Detroit, Mich.,
business agent for Local 376 of the Teamsters Union.
The Chairman. You have counsel ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, will you identify yourself, please \
Mr. Fitzgerald* George S. Fitzgerald, attorney, Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you been with the Teamsters. Mr.
Petroff?
Mr. Petroff. May I consult with counsel, please?
(The witness consulted with counsel. )
Mr. Petroff. I have been with the Teamsters Union since 1954, in
the spring of 1051.
Mr. Kennedy. What were you doing prior to that time ?
Mr. Petroff. I was an automobile salesman.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you went with the Teasmters Local 376 '.
Mr. Petroff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Who hired you for that job ?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and exer-
cise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution, not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. You don't mean that a fellow hired you and you
can't acknowledge it without being a witness against yourself, do you ?
Mr. Petroff. I honestly believe if I am forced to answer the ques-
tion I will be forced to be a witness against myself in violation of my
rights under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution.
The Chairman. Don't you also honestly believe that by refusing to
answer who hired you, you reflect upon the man who hired you ?
Mr. Petroff. I honestly believe if I am forced to answer the ques-
tion I will be forced to be a witness against myself, in violation of my
rights under the fifth amendment of the United States Constitution.
Senator Curtis. I would like to ask you, what were your duties sup-
posed to be when you were employed ?
Mr. Petroff. May I speak to counsel, please ?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and I
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself .
Senator Curtis. What duties did you perform after you were em-
ployed ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and I
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Petroff, as well as being a business agent,
you identified yourself as a business agent of local 376, don't you
have another position ?
Mr. Petroff. May I consult with my counsel ?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Are you president of the local ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I speak to him?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13239
Mr. Petroff. Business agent and secretary-treasurer.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you elected to that position ?
Mr. Petroff. May I speak to counsel, please %
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and I
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United
States Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, this is a very interesting local of the Team-
sters, Mr. Chairman, one very close to Mr. Hoffa, and one that a good
deal of money has come out of. I would like to have the witness
identify these documents.
The Chairman. I hand you here a number of tablet paper sheets on
which there is handwriting, some in pencil and some in ink. Hur-
ridely glancing through, I see none that are typewritten. I ask you
to examine this file that I have described to you and state if you
identify those handwritten documents.
(Documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Petroff. May I consult with counsel ?
The Chairman. You may.
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Kennedy. Can you identify those ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes, sir; these are the original copies of the local
union minutes, which I turned over to the investigator for the com-
mittee on advice of counsel.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Let those documents be made in bulk exhibit No. 12.
(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 12," for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee. )
Mr. Kennedy. Now, are they all of the minutes of your union ?
Mr. Petroff. May I consult with counsel, please ?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Salinger, would you tell us if that is all
of the material we received ?
The Chairman. Just one moment. Let us get the record straight.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I speak to the witness for a moment and make
an inquiry to clear something up on that score ?
The Chairman. You may.
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Fitzgerald. I think the witness could explain something about
the last question of the counsel for the committee.
The Chairman. What is the last question ?
Mr. Fitzgerald. He said, "Are those all of the minutes?" and on
that score he exercised his privilege, but I think that he should clear
that up.
The Chairman. Let us clear it up. The Chair has just presented to
you several handwritten documents here on tablet paper, which you
identified as minutes, I believe, of your local. Is that correct ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, the question is, Are these all of the minutes
of your local ?
13240 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Petroff. Those are all of the minutes of the local that are in
my possession ever since I had any responsibility for them.
The Chairman. "When did your responsibility begin I
Mr. Petr< iff. May I consult with counsel, please ?
( Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. January of 1956.
The Chairman. In January of 1956 ?
Mr. Petroff. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Through 2y2 years I "When were these turned over,
may I ask ?
Mr. Salinger. They were turned over in either late June or early
July, and they reflect the minutes through March of 1958.
The Chairman. Well, for a period of 2 years and 3 months. I
believe, that would be substantially accurate. These reflect and these
constitute all of the minutes that were kept with respect to your local
meetings of your local ; is that correct ?
Mr. Petroff. May I consult with counsel, please?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. Yes, sir ; that is true.
The Chairman. AH right, and so you delivered these in response to
a subpena of the committee, did you ?
( Witness consulted with counsel.)
M r. Petroff. Yes, on the advice of counsel.
The Chairman. Well, these were subpenaed and when you got the
subpena for the record of your local, these are what you delivered
and you say now they constitute all of the minutes of your local?
Mr. Petroff. May I consult with counsel, please ?
( Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. Those are all of the records that I know about.
The Chairman. That is what I thought. Now I may proceed, and
I wanted to establish whether you delivered them and actually com-
plied with the subpena or not by delivering all of them.
Mr. Fitzgerald. May I address the Chair? They weren't sub-
penaed, Mr. Chairman. We were called, and I was asked if they would
deliver them, and they were delivered without a subpena.
The Chairman. Thank you. I didn't mean to go into that.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I didn't know that myself, and I only say that to
clear the record.
The Chairman. Upon request you turned over all of the minutes
and these constitute all of the minutes?
Mr. Petroff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, isn't it correct, Mr. Petroff, that prior to the
time you took over the union, that this union was run by Mr. Henry
Lower ?
Mr. Petroff. May I consult with counsel ?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and ex-
ercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Were there any minutes whatsoever of the union
while Mr. Henry Lower was running it?
Mr. Petroff. May I consult with counsel ?
(Witness consulted with counsel.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13241
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and ex-
ercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Here are all of the minutes of this local, the major
local in Detroit, which was formerly run by Mr. Henry Lower, and
Mr. Henry Lower and Mr. Hoffa according to testimony were in
partners together in the Sun Valley project down in Florida. Can
you tell us anything about that ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Money came out of local 376 and went into this
project down in Florida, in which Mr. Hoffa had a personal financial
interest. Can you tell us about that ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you name one single local in Mr. Hoffa's domain
that hasn't got something wrong with it somewhere, some crookedness ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. At least in his doma in before he became international
president ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you tell us why you are participating in this
operation on behalf of Joe Lehr in the Star Coverall Co., Mr. Petroff?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. You wouldn't do that on your own, and you got your
instructions and orders from someone else, and you didn't get anything
out of it personally? Where did the instructions come from to you
about that matter ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
(At this point, the following members were present : Senators
McClellan and Ervin.)
The Chairman. Mr. Petroff, are you afraid to tell the truth about
these matters ?
Are you under some apprehension of fear ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. You know, we have some information that you are
not a very bad fellow, left to yourself. Who are you covering up f or ?'
You are not covering up just for yourself.
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and I
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
13242 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Weren't you told by the president of the Teamsters
Union that you would lose your job if you came in here and told the
truth?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and I
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to just have Mr. Salinger,
if it is all right with you, read from the minutes of the membership
meeting of March 31, 1958.
This is in a matter in connection with Mr. Petroff.
The Chairman. We are reading from the minutes that he identified
as minutes of the local ?
Mr. Salinger. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. They are all made an exhibit. You are reading an
excerpt from exhibit 12 ?
Mr. Salinger. One paragraph.
The McClellan committee is demanding all the books and records of local 376.
If any member of the union is called by the committee, Brother Petroff said to
tell the truth, we have nothing to hide.
The Chairman. Now, Brother Petroff, do you take your own advice?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and exer-
cise my privilege under the United States Constitution not to be a
witness against myself.
The Chairman. Were you telling them the truth, or were you put-
ting up a sham to the membership of your local i
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and exer-
cise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Did you anticipate then that you would be called
before the committee ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and exer-
cise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. That is the last minute you kept, isn't it ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and exer-
cise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Is that the last dated minute that was kept ?
Mr. Salinger. That we received, right, sir.
The Chairman. That we received.
Senator Ervin. May I ask a question there ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Ervin. After you wrote that very righteous proclamation
on the minutes, did you give anybody any secret oral instructions about
how they were to act in case they were summoned before the McClellan
committee ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and exer-
cise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. How many members did local 376 have ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13243
The Chairman. Don't you think that is silly, not to say how many
members you had in your local ?
Don't you think it is carrying the ridiculous to the bottom of the
scum of everything that stands for reason and decency ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the Constitution
of the United States not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. How many members do the records show, approxi-
mately, that they have ?
Mr. Salinger. I don't have that record here, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy. We can send for it.
The Chairman. I want it put into the record at this point. You
are under oath, and when you get it, insert it into the record at this
point.
(The information referred to follows :)
Membership of local 376
1955 247
1956 1008
1957 830
195S 552
Senator Ervin. You were secretary-treasurer of this local?
Mr. Petroff. Yes, sir.
Senator Ervin. And it was your duty to have custody not only of
the minutes that you kept but also you were the custodian of the min-
utes of your predecessors in that office, weren't you ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the Constitution
of the United States not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. I am asking about your authority. I am not ask-
ing what you did. I am asking about your authority and what your
duty was. Wasn't it your duty to take custody of any minutes kept
by your predecessors ?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and
exercise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. How long has local 376 been in existence?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and exer-
cise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. Well, you can answer this, because you have already
done it : So far as you know these minutes here are the only minutes
that local 376 ever had ?
Mr. Petroff. May I consult counsel ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Petroff. Those are the only minutes that I know of, sir.
Senator Ervin. When you became secretary-treasurer, did you in-
quire or ask for the minutes that were in existence or had been kept
before that time?
Mr. Petroff. I respectfully decline to answer the question and exer-
cise my privilege under the fifth amendment of the United States Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
13244 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ervix. How can it incriminate yon to say whether you made
inquiry concerning the existence of minutes which you were supposed
to keep in your official capacity as secretary-treasurer '■
Mr. Petroff. 1 honestly believe that if I am forced to answer the
question, I will be forced to be a witness against myself in violation of
my rights under the fifth amendment of the United Slates Constitution.
Senator Ervix. That is all.
Mr. Ken nedy. That is all.
The ( Ihairman. Are there any other questions \
I f not. stand aside.
('all the next witness.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Joseph Lehr.
The Chairman. ( Jome forward, Mr. Lehr.
You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Lehr. 1 do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH LEHR, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
ANTHONY A. VEEMEULEN
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. Lehr. My name is Joseph Lehr. I live in the city of Mount
Clemens, Mich., part owner of the Star Coverall Supply Co.
The Chairman. Yoti have counsel present: Mr. Counsel, identify
yourself, please.
Mr. Vermettijen. Anthony A. Vermeulen. I am an attorney in
Detroit. Mich., with offices at 2715 Cadillac Tower, Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kexxedy. How long have you been with the linen supply busi-
ness ?
Mr. Lehr. In the linen supply business ?
Mr. Kexxedy. Yes. Linen and overalls.
Mr. Lehr. Well, they are two separate fields. I worked in the
linen supply business previously before I went into the business myself.
Mr. Kexxedy. TYhat was the name of that?
Mr. Lehr. Klean Linen Service.
Mr. Kexxedy. Did you have any ownership in that ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Mr. Kexxedy. Who owned that company ?
Mr. Lehr. Irvin Cohlan and Louis Riccardi.
Mr. Kexnedy. When did that go out of business?
Mr. Lehr. I left their employ, I believe, in 1952. They were sold
shortly after that.
Mr. Kexxedy. Is that Mr. Riccardi who appeared before the Ke-
f auver committee ?
Mr. Lehr. Frankly. I don't know the dates of the Kefauver com-
mittee. But it was somewhere around that area.
Mr. Kexxedy. You understood he appeared before the Kefauver
committee?
Mr. Lehr. I knew that ; yes.
Mr. Kexxedy. That is the same Riccardi ; is it not?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13245
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you go to work for then ?
Mr. Lehr. After Mr. Riccardi and I had a parting of the ways, Mr.
Kennedy ; is that what you mean ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. I worked for a short time for the Jefferson Linen Sup-
ply Co.
Mr. Kennedy. "What is the name of it ?
Mr. Lehr. Jefferson Linen Supply.
Mr. Kennedy. Then who did you go to work for ?
Mr. Lehr. Then I went to work with the Star Coverall.
Mr. Kennedy. Who are your partners ?
Mr. Lehr. Vincent Meli and Louis Eisenberg.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known Vincent Meli ?
Mr. Lehr. I have probably known him a couple of years.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known his father, Angelo Meli ?
Mr. Lehr. Several years. I cam t say exactly.
Mr. Kennedy. Have you known Angelo longer than Vincent?
Mr. Lehr. I just knew him casually. Not personal friends or any-
thing.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you happen to go into business with Vincent
Meli?
Mr. Lehr. Well, the Klean Linen Service was on the verge of
breaking up, and I decided I would go into business for myself. I
approached Vince and wanted to know if he would go in with me.
That is how it came about.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Angelo about it ?
Mr. Lehr. No ; I didn't talk to Angelo about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Just Vincent ?
Mr. Lehr. Vincent.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you happen to approach Vincent Meli ?
Mr. Lehr. Well, I didn't have enough money of my own and I
thought with the combination of his money and mine we would have
a substantial amount.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you approach him ? 1952 ?
Mr. Lehr. I believe it was ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you think he would have enough money.
He had just gotten out of college.
Mr. Lehr. Well, we did not require that much money. He was a
young fellow, a college graduate, intelligent.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you think he was going to get his money ?
Mr. Lehr. I haven't the slightest idea.
Mr. Kennedy. You said you approached him because you needed
money.
Mr. Lehr. I didn't need money. I had my money.
Mr. Kennedy. You said you needed his money.
Mr. Lehr. His money combined with mine would have been suffi-
cient to start with.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you think he would get his money ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did you get your money ?
Mr. Lehr. $5,000 from my brother, Walter Haslett, and $2,500 from
my father-in-law.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have a bank account at that time ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't believe so.
13246 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have a bank account now ?
Mr. Lehr. No; I don't.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't have a bank account ?
Mr. Lehr. Just a company bank account.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't have a personal bank account ?
Mr. Lehr. None whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. You deal completely in cash ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Where do you keep the cash that you have, at home ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Peter Licavoli ?
Mr. Lehr. No; I don't.
M r. Kennedy. You never met him ?
Mr. Lehr. Never met him.
Mr. Kennedy. Irving Aliller testified that you introduced him to
Pete Licavoli ?
Mr. I .ei in. I introduced him to Pete Licavoli ? Mr. Miller is greatly
mistaken,
Mr. Kennedy. You did not do that ?
Mr. Lehr. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. How about Scarf ace Joe Bommarito ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know him either. I never met him.
Mr. Kennedy. You never met him ?
Mr. Lehr. Never met him.
Mr. Kennedy. You never introduced him to Mr. Miller either ?
Mr. Lehr. I have never seen them together and never introduced
him to Air. Miller.
Mr. Kennedy. You have never seen Mr. Bommarito ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't think so.
Mr. Kennedy. You have never seen Mr. Licavoli ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't think so.
I don't know him. I have seen his pictures.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Meli testified that he was down around that
office. Do 3^011 know Santo Perrone ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes ; I know Mr. Perrone.
Air. Kennedy. How long have you known Santo Perrone ?
Mr. Lehr. Since I went into business with Vince.
Air. Kennedy. Do you know Jack Tocco ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes; I do.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Anthony Tocco ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Kennedy. How long have you known Jack Tocco ?
Air. Lehr. Jack Tocco I have known since we were in business*
I think he was connected with Lafayette Motors. I met him there.
Mr. Kennedy. How about Anthony Tocco ?
Mr. Lehr. Anthony Tocco, I think I have known him probably
maybe 3 or 4 years.
Mr. Kennedy. How about Sam Finazzo, do you know him ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know him.
Mr. Kennedy. Anthony Zerilli ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know him.
Air. Kennedy. You don't know Anthony Zerilli ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13247
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know Herman Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes; I do.
Mr. Kennedy. Did Mr. Herman Kierdorf help or assist you in
obtaining contracts or clients for the Star Coverall Co. ?
Mr. Leiik. Mr. Kierdorf introduced me to 3 or 4 dealers ; yes, he
did.
Mr. Kennedy. You tell us the dealers he introduced you to.
Mr.LEHR. Who?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. Ralph Ellsworth, Rollie-Barrett, and Hanley Dawson.
Not Hanley Dawson, but Dawson Taylor Chevrolet. Those were the
three of them.
Mr. Kennedy. Also Hanley Dawson ?
Mr. Lehr. No, not Hanley Dawson. I have nothing to do with
Hanley Dawson.
Mr. Kennedy. Vincent Meli testified yesterday that he had.
Mr. Lehr. Well, I don't think Vince knew the facts.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what he testified to.
Mr. Lehr. He was mistaken.
Mr. Kennedy. It is the one company he mentioned.
Mr. Lehr. He is mistaken. He had nothing to do with Hanley
Dawson.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever discuss the Hanley Dawson account
with Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. What companies did you have? Ellsworth?
Mr. Lehr. Ralph Ellsworth, Rollie-Barrett, and Dawson Taylor,
I believe, Chevrolet.
Mr. Kennedy. You have been friends with Mr. Kierdorf for a
period of time ?
Mr. Lehr. I believe about 2 years, 3 years, about that length of
time. Three years, I imagine.
Mr. Kennedy. For how many years ?
Mr. Lehr. About 3, 2 or 3. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. Kennedy. Who introduced you to Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. I met him in Red Kemp's. I forget who introduced
him to us.
Mr. Kennedy. What is Red Kemp's ?
Mr. Lehr. It is a restaurant near our plant.
Mr. Kennedy. I can't hear you. Will you speak up ?
Mr. Lehr. It is a restaurant near our plant.
Mr. Kennedy. Who introduced you to him ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall how I ran into him.
Mr. Kennedy. In any of these matters, were the labor difficulties
or problems of any of these companies discussed ?
Mr. Lehr. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. I am asking you. You would know.
Mr. Lehr. No, as far as I know; I don't recall any, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. You never discussed any labor problems? You
never discussed any labor problems with Mr. Kierdorf about any of
these accounts ?
Mr. Lehr. Never to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. You never did. Did you ever tell any of these
accounts that if they gave you the business or gave the business that
13248 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
they had to somebody that you designated, that you could solve their
labor difficulties?
Mr. Lehr. Never.
Mr. Kennedy. That never happened ?
.Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. How did Mr. Kierdorf happen to introduce you
to these three accounts that you mentioned?
Mr. Lehr. I asked Mr. Kierdorf to introduce me to them.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they having labor difficulties at the time?
Mr. Lehr. No. Can I make a statement to that affect?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. Way back last fall, the coverall association, they wanted
us to join awfully badly, hired a private detective agency to follow
our trucks and obtain a list of our accounts.
They sat out there in front of our plant night and day and brazenly
followed our trucks all the way home to their driver's places. I knew
they were preparing for a tight. They took some of our business.
I met Mr. Kierdorf at Red Kemp's at that time and I asked him to
introduce me to get back some of this business from these people who
had been taking my business for weeks.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you go to Mr. Kierdorf?
Mr. Lehr. I go for help to anyone when I fight back.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you go to a union official ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't consider him a union official. I consider him a
friend.
Mr. Kennedy. He also was a union official. You knew that.
Mr. Lehr. All I asked was an introduction. He had nothing to
do with, to my knowledge, obtaining business for me.
Mr. Kennedy. You never discussed any union matters with any
of them ?
Mr. Lehr. Not to the best of my knowledge, not that I remember ;
no, I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. That is three answers you gave. What is the
answer?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall discussing it.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't recall now, or know he didn't.
Mr. Lehr. I didn't. I don't recall.
Mr. Kennedy. Which answer is it ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall, Mr. Kennedy, discussing it.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't recall. Rut do you deny that you did?
Mr. Lehr. Well, I say I don't recall it.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny it ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall it.
Mr. Kennedy. It is possible that you did, then; is that right?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall it, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Are you in a position to deny the fact that you
were discussing these matters with Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. May I consult counsel ?
Mr. Kennedy. This is over the period of the last year. Let me
draw or direct your attention just over the period of the last 12
months.
Over the period of the last 12 months have you discussed the prob-
lems that these various employers have had with Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. None whatsoever, Mr. Kennedy, to my best knowledge.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13249
Mr. Kennedy. Can you just say "No"? Can you just say that
you did not?
Mr. Lehr. I did not. I will say I did not. To the best of my
knowledge I did not discuss it.
Mr. Kennedy. You keep slipping that "to the best of my knowl-
edge" in.
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Senator Ervin. The point is this : You either have knowledge, or
you don't have knowledge. If you have knowledge, you can say
"Yes" or "No" positively. Now, do you have knowledge of what
you have been asked about ? *
Mr. Lehr. Sir, to the best of my knowledge in that, I don't re-
member discussing these things with Mr. Kierdorf .
Senator Erven. You are not willing to swear, then, that you did
not discuss these matters with Mr. Kierdorf?
Mr. Lehr. Well, I will honestly say "No." I did not discuss any-
body's unionization problems.
Senator Ervin. Will you say you did not discuss them ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right; I will say I did not discuss them.
Senator Ervin. You are making it certain, you are testifying now
that it is not a matter of forgetfulness with you, you are testifying
that you positively did not discuss these matters with him. That is
your testimony.
Mr. Lehr. May I consult my counsel ?
Senator Ervin. I don't know that your counsel knows about that.
He probably was not along. There is no evidence of that. If you
have to consult him about the law, it is all right. But I don't know
why you need to discuss with him about your knowledge of a fact.
But you can consult.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lehr. I don't have any knowledge of discussing anyone's
problems with Mr. Kierdorf. That is why I say I don't recall it.
I honestly don't recall it.
Senator Ervin. Well, you are changing your testimony again now.
You are saying now, in effect, that you could have discussed it with
him and forgotten about it.
Mr. Lehr. No, I am not saying that. I don't have any recollection
of discussing anybody's union problems or labor problems with Mr.
Kierdorf.
Senator Ervin. Do you have any recollection to the effect that you
did or did not discuss them with him ?
Mr. Lehr. I can't honestly remember ever discussing, sir — I don't
know your name.
Senator Ervin. But you could have discussed them and forgotten
them ?
Mr. Lehr. It is possible. I don't recall.
Senator Ervin. All right. Now we have the third version.
The Chairman. All right. Let's proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss it with employers ? Did you discuss
their labor problems ?
Mr. Lehr. In my best recollection I discussed — Bay Tessmer once
discussed his problem or told me about his problem with the union
when I stopped in to see him one day.
21243— 58— pt. 35— —9
13250 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Other than Ray Tessmer, did you discuss the labor
problems these employers were having ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You did not ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Would you read in the affidavit, the pertinent part
of the affidavit, of Mr. McLaughlin of the Frank McLaughlin Pontiac
Co.?
Mr. Salinger (reading) :
Either Monday or Tuesday I received a telephone call from a man named
Joseph Lehr, with whom I had no previous acquaintance. Lehr identified him-
self as King Lehr, and said he was Vince Meli's partner in the Star Coverall
Supply Co. Mr. Lehr told me he had heard through one of his drivers that we
were having union problems. He said he knew the fellows down at the union
and thought he could help us and I told him to go ahead and try.
He subsequently called back and said that the problem could be solved if the
Chief Pontiac Co. would sign a recognition contract with the union.
Mr. Lehr. Can I make a statement on that ?
Mr. Kennedy. You not only can make a statement, you better make
a statement.
Mr. Lehr. If I remember that incident, it was on a Friday. My
driver called me and said they had a picket line in front of, I believe it
was, Chief Pontiac at the time, yes, and he could not make a deliv-
ery. I called Mr. McLaughlin and asked what was going on and he
said they had a picket line out there. I said I would call Mr. Kierdorf
and see if I couldn't get the uniforms taken in there so the men could
have some clothes, which I did.
I called McLaughlin back and Mr. Kierdorf said "Don't under any
circumstances cross that picket line."
I called Mr. McLaughlin back and told him what Mr. Kierdorf had
said and that they would be down Monday to meet with them to iron
out his problems and his trouble. That is the extent of my conversa-
tion with Mr. McLaughlin.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you were discussing with some of these em-
ployers their problems ?
Mr. Lehr. I didn't discuss the problem. I gave the message.
Mr. Kennedy. You were discussing that. You were discussing the
problem.
Mr. Lehr. I didn't discuss the problem.
Senator Ervin. And also discussing labor matters with Mr. Kier-
dorf.
Mr. Lehr. No, I just called to ask him if it would be all right for
us to make a delivery.
Senator Ervin. And he told you not to cross the picket line.
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. His testimony here is :
He said he knew the fellows down at the union and thought he could help us,
and I told him to go ahead and try.
Mr. Lehr. I don't remember that.
I don't think I said that, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny that ?
Mr. Lehr. I do.
Mr. Kennedy. Well, then, there is a direct conflict.
(At this point, Senator Church entered the hearing room.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13251
Mr. Kennedy. And you subsequently called back and said that the
problem could be solved if the Chief Pontiac Co. would sign a recog-
nition contract with the union. Is that correct ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know how Mr. McLaughlin could make that
statement. I have no knowledge of union affairs or dealings or con-
tracts of any kind.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what we are investigating here, how you were
able to wield the influence in the union. Do you deny what Mr. Mc-
Laughlin said ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, I do.
Mr. Kennedy. You deny that ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, I do.
Mr. Kennedy. Then we have two direct denials.
Who did you contact down in the union ?
Mr. Lehr. Who did I contact ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. Herman Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Mr. Petroff ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Here is the testimony on page 63 : Mr. Warren,
who was the steward at the time, testified :
Mr. Warren. Two days, I believe.
Mr. Petroff told me that he had been contacted by, I believe it was, Joe Lehr
of the Star Coverall Co., and a business agent of the Restaurant Workers'
Union.
Did you talk to Mr. Petroff about this matter ?
Mr. Lehr. The only time I spoke to Mr. Petroff was when Gib
Bergstrom took over the Chief Pontiac Co. and I was willing to meet
the new owner.
Mr. Kennedy. No, this was back before that.
Let me go on with Mr. Warren's testimony.
That was Joe Lehr of the Star Coverall Supply Co. ; is that right?
Mr. Warren. Yes, sir. They had asked him and Kierdorf to meet for lunch
to discuss the situation there. That afternoon, Mr. Kierdorf told me that the
picket line would be pulled off, that Mr. Lehr and Mr. Davis, I believe it was,
would intercede in our behalf with Frank McLaughlin and see that we got a
contract provided we go back to work.
There is a direct conflict with your testimony, Mr. Lehr.
Mr. Lehr. I can only tell you the truth, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. That is about four conflicts. Now, let me go on to
another situation.
(At this point, Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing
room.)
Mr. Kennedy. What about where the employees of the Gib Berg-
strom Pontiac Co. were interested in changing their supply from Star
Coverall to the Arrow Coverall? Did you and Mr. Kierdorf go
down and see the steward down there ?
Mr. Lehr. They had a service manager there. I wish I had
brought the letter. I lost it.
Mr. Kennedy. Just answer the question. Did you and Mr. Kier-
dorf go down?
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Go ahead.
13252 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Lehr. They had a service manager there who demanded $5.80
worth of free uniform service from us a week. I refused to give it
to him ; meanwhile, the Arrow Coverall Supply and the Central Cov-
erall Supply had been in there offering price cuts and giveaway gim-
micks and all kind of deals to take the account from us. The service
manager was on their side.
But I didn't give them any new clothes because Mr. McLaughlin
had told me he did not know whether he was going to stay in business
or not. He might close or might stay open. It would have been
silly of me to invest a lot of money in new ones and have the shop
close up. The first I know was that the Arrow Coverall had gotten
in there and made these fellows a deal.
I talked to the service manager, and he was very hostile and would
not allow me to talk to the men. I called Mr. Kierdorf and said
"Herman, I can't seem to talk to these men. Would you please ar-
range a meeting for me, so I can hold onto the shop/' He did, and
I drove over there and told them I would give them new garments if
they won Id let me stay over there.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Warren testified that the employees themselves
were dissatisfied with the service you were performing; that they had
voted to throw your company out ; that they informed the service man-
ager, and he was to make arrangements with a new company, and
you and Mr. Kierdorf appeared. Why was Mr. Kierdorf interfering
in this at all I
Mr. Lehr. I asked Mr. Kierdorf, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. And he was willing to do it ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes. He was willing to help me.
Mr. Kennedy. What about the Dick Haigh Pontiac Co. ?
Mr. Lehr. What about the Dick Haigh Pontiac Co. ?
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to anybody from the Dick Haigh
Pontiac Co. about their labor problems ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You weren't responsible for keeping the union out
of the Dick Haigh Pontiac Co. ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Bill Root Chevrolet ?
Mr. Lehr. I never had anything to do with Bill Root, except to
arrange a luncheon for them between Ernie Grissom, Bill Root, and
Mr. Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you do that ?
Mr. Lehr. Mr. Grissom asked if I knew Mr. Kierdorf, and I said
yes, I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Why couldn't they do it directly? Why did they
have to go through you ?
Mr. Lehr. No particular reason, except that I knew Herman
Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. But you are in the coverall business ?
Mr. Lehr. I would help anyone, if I possibly could, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it peculiar that they were coming to 3^011 to see
Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. I talk to many people in the day.
Mr. Grissom asked if I could arrange a luncheon.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the meeting; to be about ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13253
Mr. Lehr. A meeting between Bill Root, Mr. Grissom, and Mr.
Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did Mr. Root want to meet Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. I guess because he had a picket line out there, and it had
been going on for some time.
Mr. Kennedy. Some labor difficulties ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. He couldn't talk to Mr. Kierdorf directly ?
Mr. Lehr. I didn't talk to Mr. Root directly. Mr. Grissom asked
me to arrange the luncheon.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you meet with Mr. Root at all ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes ; I met with Mr. Root.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you meet with Mr. Root ?
Mr. Lehr. I happened to be in Mount Clemens, where they met for
their luncheon, the three of them.
Mr. Kennedy. You were just in the city of Mount Clemens ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right. I live there.
Mr. Kennedy. Did everybody in Mount Clemens meet them ?
Mr. Lehr. No ; just the four of us sat down at the table.
Mr. Kennedy. You were at the luncheon ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right,
Mr. Kennedy. You just happened to be at the luncheon ?
Mr. Lehr. I happened to be there ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What can you discuss ?
Mr. Lehr. I didn't discuss anything. They discussed their labor
problems.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did they bring you along ? What were you ?
Mr. Lehr. They didn't bring me along. I just happened to be
there,
Mr. Kennedy. You just happened to drop by ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right, I eat there quite frequently.
Mr. Kennedy. Whom were you planning to eat with that day ?
Mr. Lehr. Nobody in particular. I knew they were coming up, and
I planned to eat with them.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any other luncheon with Mr. Root ?
Mr. Lehr. I believe he was over at Red Kemp's another time
shortly after that, probably a week or two, I believe it was.
Mr. Kennedy. And you just happened to go by for luncheon, too?
Mr. Lehr. No, I believe that meeting was arranged between Mr.
Kierdorf and himself.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was at that luncheon ?
Mr. Lehr. Mr. Root and Mr. Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. The three of you ?
Mr. Lehr. And I was there, too.
Mr. Kennedy. What were you doing there?
Mr. Lehr. Nothing, just joined them.
Mr. Kennedy. Just happened to be there ?
Mr. Lehr. Just there.
Mr. Kennedy. Nobody else there ?
Mr. Lehr. Not to my knowledge. I don't remember anybody else
being there; no.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you in touch with Mr. Root then ? You had
had these luncheons with him. Were you in touch with him at all ?
Mr. Lehr. Was I in touch with Mr. Root ?
13254 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. No.
(At this point, Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Kennedy. You just met him for luncheons?
Mr. Lehr. That is right, and they discussed their problems.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you call him ?
Mr. Lehr. Did I call Mr. Root?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. I believe I called him there one day that they were going
to take the picket line off.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk on the phone ?
Mr. Lehr. I believe so, yes. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you talk about ?
Mr. Lehr. Nothing in particular.
Mr. Kennedy. About the picket line?
Mr. Lehr. That is right, that one item. Mr. Kierdorf told me they
were going to take the picket line off and would I please call Mr.
Root and tell him.
Mr. Kennedy. Why couldn't he call, himself?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know. He told me to call him.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did they always feel they had to go through
you?
Mr. Lehr. No particular reason. He told me to call him. You
want an honest answer and I am giving you one, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. When was that, around Christmas, 1957? Is that
right?
Mr. Lehr. It might have been in that area. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. The strike, I believe, ended December 27, 1957.
Mr. Lehr. I know they had a lot of trouble out there, the violence
and stuff.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you cash a check on December 24, 1957?
Mr. Lehr. Did I cash a check ? I might have. What check are you
referring to?
Mr. Kennedy. Can you identify that ?
The Chairman. The Chair present to you a photostatic copy of a
check dated December 24, 1957, made payable to you in the amount
of $3,000, given by George O. Kirtz. I hand it to you and ask you to
examine it and state if you identify it.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Do you identify the check ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, I do, Senator.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 13.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 13" for ref-
erence and will be found in the appendix on p. 13273.)
The Chairman. Will you tell us now something about the check?
Mr. Lehr. It was a personal loan made to me by Mr. Kirtz.
The Chairman. A personal loan ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
The Chairman. Had you forgotten about it ?
Mr. Lehr. Had I forgotten about the loan ?
The Chairman. Yes, until you were asked just now.
Mr. Lehr. No, I had not forgotten about it.
The Chairman. All right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13255
Mr. Kennedy. You put this in the business ?
Mr. Lehr. No, that was my own personal expenses. It has been
paid back, the greatest portion has been paid back.
Mr. Kennedy. Just explain. You got this check. Who is this
man George O. Kirtz ?
Mr. Lehr. He owns a restaurant and bar out in Mount Clemens — a
friend of mine.
Mr. Kennedy. He made a check out for $3,000 to you ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. For what reason ?
Mr. Lehr. I asked him for a loan of $3,000, a personal loan.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do with the money ?
Mr. Lehr. My own personal expenses, living expenses, payments
and such.
Mr. Kennedy. You cashed that ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do with the $3,000 in cash ?
Mr. Lehr. I made various payments of money owed.
Mr. Kennedy. Who did you make the payments to ?
Mr. Lehr. I would have to go back and look at the records.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you have records ?
Mr. Lehr. I probably have at home, receipts and such.
Mr. Kennedy. What records do you have ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall now.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't have any bank accounts.
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you do with the $3,000 ?
Mr. Lehr. As I say, I made payments on stuff that I owed.
Mr. Kennedy. This is 6 months ago. What did you do with the
cash you got?
Mr. Lehr. I repeat, Mr. Kennedy, I used it for my own personal
expenses.
The Chairman. Name one thing that you did with it ?
Mr. Lehr. I paid Mr. Weiss $800.
The Chairman. Where does he live?
Mr. Lehr. Mount Clemens.
The Chairman. You paid him $800 out of it ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
The Chairman. What did you do with the next chunk out of it?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall it all, Senator.
The Chairman. If you don't recall it all, tell us what you do recall.
Can you recall any other payments ?
Mr. Lehr. I would be very happy to get the information for you.
The Chairman. I know you will, but let's see what you can recall
now.
Mr. Lehr. Offhand I probably made payments on my home.
The Chairman. On your home ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
The Chairman. To whom ?
Mr. Lehr. To whom ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. Arthur Gioneggi, at the time.
The Chairman. Has he got a mortgage on your home?
Mr. Lehr. No ; not now he hasn't.
13256 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Did he have then ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes ; he did.
The Chairman. Was it recorded ?
Mr. Lehr. Is it recorded ?
The Chairman. Was it ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You say you did make a payment on your home to
him?
Mr. Lehr. Yes ; I made a payment to him.
The Chairman. How much?
Mr. Lehr. I don't remember now.
The Chairman. What were your payments on your home ?
Mr. Lehr. $125 a month. Sometimes I paia him $200 or better.
It all depends on the months.
The Chairman. Can you think of any other ?
Mr. Lehr. Not offhand I can't, no.
The Chairman; Were you on a salary at the time ?
Mr. Lehr. Am I on a salary ? Yes, I am.
The Chairman. What is your salary?
Mr. Lehr. Well, my income is about $12,000 a year.
The Chairman. About $12,000 a year. Have you any other income
besides that ?
Mr. Lehr. Xo, sir, I have not.
The Chairman. You have an interest in the business, haven't you ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you get any income from that business ?
Mr. Lehr. That is the income I am referring to.
The Chairman. Have you any other income from the business in
addition to your salary ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
The Chairman. At the end of the year, do you divide the profits ?
Mr. Lehr. There haven't been any as yet.
The Chairman. When did this thing start, this Star Co.?
Mr. Lehr. October 1952.
The Chairman. October 1952, and you never made a profit yet ?
Mr. Lehr. Well, we haven't been able to split a profit or take any
money out of the company.
The Chairman. You have kept putting it back in ?
Mr. Lehr. We borrowed a lot of money to keep our business going,
Senator.
Mr. Kennedy. You bought a laundry also, didn't you ?
Mr. Lehr. We built a laundry.
Senator Ervin. Why are you mad at the banks ?
Mr. Lehr. Why am I mad at the banks ?
Senator Erven. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. I am not mad at the banks. I don't have that much
money to spare to keep in the bank.
Senator Ervin. Well, you got $3,000 here. You could have put
that in the bank and written some checks on it and you would have had
a record.
Mr. Lehr. That was a personal loan for my personal expenses.
Senator Ervin. You never have deposited any of your personal
funds in the bank in your whole life ?
Mr. Lehr. I had a bank account years and years ago.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13257
Senator Ervin. How long has it been since you had a personal bank
account ?
Mr. Lehr. I would say 9 or 10 years.
Senator Ervin. You are a businessman ?
Mr. Lehr. We have a company account.
Senator Erven. I am talking about a personal account. You get
$12,000 a year salary and you never put a penny of it in the bank for
10 years ?
Mr. Lehr. No, I have not.
Senator Ervin. Why don't you ?
Mr. Lehr. Well, I just don't have any reasons. There is never
that much money left lying around out of my income.
Senator Ervin. You don't get rid of your $1,000 income each month
as soon as you get it, do you ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, it is eaten up pretty fast.
Senator Ervin. And you always go around and pay your bills in
person ?
Mr. Lehr. I always go around and buy money orders.
Senator Ervin. So it looks like you are mad at the Post Office too,
as well as the bank ?
Mr. Lehr. I like the money orders.
Senator Erven. Instead of writing checks and mailing them, if you
have to remit any payments by mail, you go to the trouble of going
and buying a postal money order ?
Mr. Lehr. Well, I will tell you, in my business we get so many
small personal checks that bounce that I think if less of them were
around we would have less trouble with bouncing checks.
Senator Ervin. You don't get checks overdrawn.
Mr. Lehr. I could get overdrawn like any of us.
Senator Ervin. So the reason you don't put money in the bank is
because you might have checks that bounce ?
Mr. Lehr. Not necessarily. If I have money? I pay a bill.
Senator Ervin. So you go to the trouble of going to the post office,
to stand in line, and buy a money order?
Mr. Lehr. There is no trouble at all. I am in the bank every day.
Senator Ervin. Is that the only reason you have for not banking ?
Mr. Lehr. The only reason.
Senator Ervin. Don't you think it is a rather foolish one?
Mr. Lehr. No, I don't.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. Bill Root testified that he believed that you were
responsible for settling his difficulties with the union.
Mr. Lehr. I had nothing to do with the settling of Bill Root's
difficulties. His difficulties went on long after he had that luncheon.
Mr. Kennedy. You had some conversations and conferences with
him?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. I thought you just testified to that,
Mr. Lehr. To what, that I had a conversation with Bill Root ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. You asked me if I discussed any labor problems with
anybody and I said, "No."
Mr. Kennedy. You said you discussed it with Bill Root?
Mr. Lehr. His problems?
13258 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. All I did was arrange a luncheon.
Mr. Kennedy. You had two luncheons.
Mr. Lehr. I didn't discuss them. They discussed them.
Mr. Kennedy. You just sat there?
Mr. Lehr. I sat there; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. You called him and told him they were going to
take the picket line off.
Mr. Lehr. When Mi*. Kierdorf called me and told me.
Mr. Kennedy. You called him then.
Mr. Lehr. I called him.
Mr. Kennedy. That is a discussion. When you are talking with
somebody, you are discussing it.
Mr. Lehr. I gave Mr. Root a message.
Mr. Kennedy. That is discussing it.
Mr. Lehr. To my mind, it isn't.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the definition, then, that we have been pro-
ceeding under, when you talk to somebody, that that is not a dis-
cussion? You talked to Mr. Root about it, then?
Mr. Lehr. No; I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. You told him something.
Mr. Lehr. I gave Mr. Root a message.
Mr. Kennedy. You were present at two luncheons.
Mr. Lehr. Two luncheons, that is right.
The Chairman. What did you hear at those luncheons ?
Mr. Lehr. Their problems with unionization. I don't recall what
they were.
I don't know.
The Chairman. Did you arrange the luncheon ?
Mr. Lehr. I did.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Lehr. Mr. Grissom asked me to.
The Chairman. WTio is Mr. Grissom to ask you to arrange the
luncheon ?
Mr. Lehr. A good friend of mine, a customer of mine.
The Chairman. Why couldn't he arrange the luncheon?
Mr. Lehr. He didn't know Mr. Kierdorf.
The Chairman. He didn't?
Mr. Lehr. No.
The Chairman. So he was using you as a middleman to help settle
the thing, and as a middleman you had no discussion?
Mr. Lehr. I had no discussion. He asked me if I knew Mr. Kier-
dorf, and I said, "Yes," and he asked if I would arrange a luncheon,
and I said, "Yes."
Mr. Kennedy. Then you had conversations with Mr. Root after that.
Mr. Lehr. I did?
About labor troubles?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. No, I didn't. The only discussions I had with Mr. Root
were about his laundry company and who he had in there.
Mr. Kennedy. About what ?
Mr. Lehr. His laundry company, his overall company.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that during this period of time ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13259
Mr. Lehr. Yes. I believe it was the first time I met him.
Mr. Kennedy. You did discuss that?
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Then you talked to him on the telephone after that,
did you not, about his laundry business ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You talked about his labor business ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Not at all ?
Mr. Lehr. I had no reason to talk about his labor business.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk about his laundry business?
Mr. Lehr. Not on the telephone.
Mr. Kennedy. What did you talk about on the telephone, then ?
Mr. Lehr. The only time I talked to Mr. Root, if I remember cor-
rectly, was the time I called about the message of Mr. Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. Will you tell the committee what the record shows ?
That is very interesting.
The Chairman. First, let me ask you who is Doc?
Mr. Lehr. Doc?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. Mr. Kierdorf.
Senator Ervin. It appears here that even after you introduced Mr.
Hoot to Mr. Kierdorf and had arranged luncheons for them, that still
Mr. Kierdorf could not communicate with Mr. Root except through
you as an intermediary.
Mr. Lehr. I believe he could, had he wanted to.
Senator Erven. But he didn't.
Mr. Lehr. I don't know.
Senator Erven. You arranged the lunch and arranged to transmit
the message after they decided to pull the picket line on it.
Mr. Lehr. I didn't arrange it. Mr. Kierdorf called me.
Senator Ervin. He called you and asked you to notify Mr. Root.
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Senator Erven. Didn't it strike you sort of strange that he couldn't
call Mr. Root himself?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know. Possibly. They were having little argu-
ments, I guess, in court, and out on the sidewalk and everything else.
The Chairman. Let's see what the record shows.
Mr. Salinger. December 21, 1957, at 2 : 13 p. m., a call was made
from Bill Root's Chevrolet Co. to the home of Mr. Lehr in Mount
Clemens, Mich.
Two minutes later, a call was made from the Bill Root Chevrolet
Co. to the office of Ernie Grissom, the Ernie Grissom Chevrolet Co.
At 3 : 40 p. m. the same day, a call was made from Mr. Lehr's home
to the Bill Root Chevrolet Co. At 10 : 40 a. m. the following morning,
a call was made from Mr. Lehr's residence to the residence of Mr.
Herman Kierdorf.
Mr. Kennedy. What were you talking to Mr. Root about ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall, Mr. Kennedy, what I was talking about.
Mr. Kennedy. It is ridiculous, when you deny you were talking or
discussing labor problems.
Mr. Lehr. I don't deny. I said I don't remember.
The Chairman. Were you taking a cue from Hoffa ?
13260 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
The Chairman. That is, failing memory ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Where did this luncheon take place ?
Mr. Lehr. The first luncheon ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Mount Clemens?
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Whereabout ?
Mr. Lehr. Kirtz Tavern.
Mr. Kennedy. That is the same Kirtz that gave you this check ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. The same man ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. The same place where the luncheon was held?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. The check for the $3,000 ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you give any of that cash to anyone ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never gave any money to Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never gave any money to any union official,
directly or indirectly ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You never did ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. You just happened to need that cash just 3 days
before the strike was settled ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. What about the Jefferson Chevrolet? Can you tell
us whether you had any conservations with Ray Tessmer about his
union difficulties ?
Mr. Lehr. He mentioned the fact, when I was in there one day with
Mr. Dawson, that he had received a telegram, to my best recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. This is one of the companies that you mentioned.
Did you go in to visit Jefferson Chevrolet ?
Mr. Lehr. Did I visit them ? Yes ; I was there with Mrs. Dawson
twice, I believe.
Mr. Kennedy. You were there with Mrs. Dawson ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Were they having union difficulties at the time ?
Mr. Lehr. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. They were not having union difficulties?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did you happen to go in to see Jefferson
Chevrolet?
Mr. Lehr. Mrs. Dawson had asked me to take her in there.
Mr. Kennedy. She knew Mr. Tessmer ?
Mr. Lehr. She told me she didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. She told you she did not know Mr. Tessmer?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. I asked you that downstairs, and you said she prob-
ably did know Mr. Tessmer.
Mr. Lehr. She told me she didn't.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13261
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't tell me that 2 hours ago.
Mr. Lehr. That is why she asked me to introduce her to him..
Mr. Kennedy. Why didn't you explain that to me downstairs ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall what I said to you downstairs, but, to the
best of my knowledge, Mrs. Dawson said to me she didn't know Mr.
Tessmer.
Mr. Kennedy. That is why she asked you to take her there ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. He had nothing to do with this union difficulty?
Did it have anything to do with Mr. Grissom ?
Mr. Lehr. Mr. Tessmer knew Mr. Grissom ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did it have anything to do with Mr. Tessmer hav-
ing labor difficulty ?
Mr. Lehr. No. Mr. Grissom asked me to see him about his laundry
business.
Mr. Kennedy. To do what ?
Mr. Lehr. To go see Ray Tessmer about getting his laundry ac-
count.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you go in to see him ?
Mr. Lehr. Not right away ; no.
Mr. Kennedy. When did you go to see him ?
Mr. Lehr. I met Mr. Tessmer shortly after that in Red Kemp's,
having lunch. That was the first time I had seen him.
The next time I was in there was with Mrs. Dawson.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Tessmer testified, Mr. Lehr, that Mr. Grissom
sent you in to see him, and Mrs. Dawson says that you brought her in.
Mr. Lehr. I did bring her in.
Mr. Kennedy. Those are two different witnesses.
Mr. Lehr. I did take Mrs. Dawson in.
Mr. Kennedy. Can you explain Mr. Tessmer's testimony that you
were sent in by Ernie Grissom ?
Mr. Lehr. No; I can't. I don't have any idea what it is all about
on his part.
Mr. Kennedy. And Mrs. Dawson said she had known Tessmer for
a long period of time, and that you were sent in there by Grissom,
and you brought her along to get her the account ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that right ?
Mr. Lehr. I took her in there.
Mr. Kennedy. Wait a minute.
Mr. Lehr. I took her in there.
Mr. Kennedy. To get the account ?
Mr. Lehr. To get the account.
Mr. Kennedy. That was because it had been arranged by Mr. Gris-
som ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir; she asked me if I could get her the Jefferson
Chevrolet and if I knew Ray Tessmer.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell her that you had only met him once ?
Mr. Lehr. No, I didn't.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't understand what you were doing bringing
her in there. Her story makes some sense, and your story doesn't
make any sense.
Mr. Lehr. I am giving you an honest story and Mrs. Dawson asked
me to take her in there and she wanted the laundry business.
13262 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. How were you going to be able to get the laundry
business for her ?
Mr. Lehr. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to get it at all.
Mr. Kennedy. What made her think you would be able to get it?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Tessmer's testimony was that you were sent in
there by Mr. Grissom because you could maneuver with the union ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know why I would make a statement like that.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't know why you would make it unless it is
true.
Senator Ervin. Is your business unionized ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, sir.
Senator Ervin. With what union ?
Mr. Lehr. Local 285 of the Laundry and Linen Driver's Local.
Mr. Kennedy. Now this is the testimony of Mr. Tessmer, on page
102:
Question. Had you talked to Ernie Grissom about it?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes.
Question. You talked to Ernie Grissom?
Mr. Tessmer. At our Chevrolet meetings we talked.
Question. Had you told him about the labor difficulties you were having?
Mr. Tessmer. Not particularly. We talked about all labor unions.
Question. Did you mention specifically that the union was trying to organize
your employees?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, I just said that my boys were joining the union, that is
right, and he said, "I think Joe Lehr knows the boys at the union."
Question. So he said Joe Lehr had some friends amongst the unior?
Mr. Tessmer. That is right. And he said he would
Question. Send him over?
Mr. Tessmer. Send him over and see if he could do anything. Well at that
particular time I did not have no trouble.
Question. You were not having any trouble. Did Joe Lehr come anyway?
Mr. Tessmer. No ; I did not have any trouble.
Question. Did Joe Lehr come there?
Mr. Tessmer. Yes ; he came over.
Question. What conversation did you have?
Mr. Tessmer. Well, that is all. He just said, "Well, I will take and talk to
them."
Mr. Kennedy. Did you do that ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't remember that ; no.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, you say you don't remember.
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall that incident, Mr. Kennedy. My only
recollection of being in there was with Mrs. Dawson twice.
Mr. Kennedy. That is less than a year ago, and you should be able
to remember that.
Mr. Lehr. I understand.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact you went there because of your union
connections ?
Mr. Lehr. No, it is not a fact.
Mr. Kennedy. And you were going to get the business for anybody
you wanted because you were a friend of Herman Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Isn't it a fact that that is the procedure that you
liave been using in Detroit ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. In half a dozen or 12 different cases ?
Mr. Lehr. No ; absolutely not.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13263
Mr. Kennedy. Was there a telegram from the union on the desk
at the time you came in ?
Mr. Lehr. I believe there was a telegram. They pulled it out.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss the telegram ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he bring the telegram out for ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't remember the fact, or the contents of the tele-
gram.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you remember he brought a telegram out?
Mr. Lehr. I recall the incident, and I was interested in it and it
wasn't any problem of mine.
Mr. Kennedy. If somebody brought a telegram out and you didn't
know anything about it, why would you remember that? You are
having such a bad memory anyway.
Mr. Lehr. I didn't have any reason.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say about the telegram ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't recall what he said, and I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. What was it about — the telegram ?
Mr. Lehr. I haven't the slightest idea, and I couldn't tell you what
it was.
Mr. Kennedy. Who sent the telegram ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. According to Mrs. Dawson this morning, in this
morning's testimony, you said :
You have heard from Petroff, and that is why I am here.
Mr. Lehr. Mrs. Dawson has an awfully good memory and I can't
remember it.
Mr. Kennedy. We are talking about Tessmer's testimony and Mrs.
Dawson's testimony.
Mr. Lehr. I don't remember it.
Mr. Kennedy. They have both testified contrary to what you are
testifying.
Mr. Lehr. I can't help that, and I don't recall the incident.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you deny that it took place ?
Mr. Lehttr. I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. This is November 1, 1957 ?
Mr. Lehr. I don't remember.
The Chairman. That is 9 months ago. Either they are not tell-
ing the truth, or you are perjuring yourself, and you know it.
Mr. Lehr. Mr. Chairman, I am telling you the truth to the best of
by ability, and the best of my recollection, I am trying to help. I
have cooperated with Mr. Salinger for the last 4 months. I don't
know what the contents of that telegram were and I can't tell you.
Mr. Kennedy. What has impaired your recollection ?
Mr. Lehr. I just don't remember.
The Chairman. It doesn't make any sense.
Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. We have more cases like this.
The Chairman. Make the record. Now this witness is testifying
contradictory to the testimony we have had here, and some of these
witnesses impressed me as telling the truth. I could be deceived, and
I have been a few times. But these witnesses impressed me as trying to
tell the truth.
13264 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Now you are impressing me as relying on feeble memory, unneces-
sarily so, except for your convenience at the moment. We are going
to make this record, and proceed with it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you bring anybody else in to see them at Jef-
ferson Chevrolet ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, Mr. Dick Dalitz.
Mr. Kennedy. Of whom ?
Mr. Lehr. Michigan Industrial Laundry.
Mr. Kennedy. Did they get the account? Why did you bring
them in?
Mr. Lehr. He asked me if I knew Ray Tessmer.
Mr. Kennedy. He asked you, to ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Everybody thinks you know Ray Tessmer?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And it had nothing to do with the labor difficulties ?
Mr. Lehr. None whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. He just said, "Do you know Ray Tessmer?"
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you brought him in ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And did you say, "I have only met him a couple of
times" ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And he still wanted you to bring him in ?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. And you brought him in ?
Mr. Lehr. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And he got the account ?
Mr. Lehr. He got the account sometime after that.
Mr. Kennedy. He got the account ?
Mr. Lehr. I guess he did ; yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now that is just ridiculous. You were in touch with
Mr. Tessmer during this period of time ?
Mr. Lehr. I might have called him.
Mr. Kennedy. What were you calling him about ?
Mr. Lehr. I honestly can't remember any of the conversation, and
it might have been Mrs. Dawson wanting the account or it might have
been Mr. Dalitz wanting the account, I don't remember.
Mr. Kennedy. Why were you calling him ?
Mr. Lehr. Why would I call him ?
Mr. Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Lehr. I just said, over those two items.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you in touch with Mr. Kierdorf during this
period of time?
Mr. Lehr. I probably saw Herman ; yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you discuss this with Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. What?
Mr. Kennedy. About the difficulties of Tessmer ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You didn't discuss that with him ?
Mr. Lehr. No.
Mr. Kennedy. You weren't discussing that with Mr. Tessmer ?
Mr. Lehr. I had nothing' to do with Mr. Tessmer's difficulties.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13265
culdesf ENNEDT' Y°U Weren,t CaUing m' Kierdorf ^out those diffi-
Mr.LEHR. No.
can?M^rC^^ iS °a ft™6 *&?**> t-he relation of these telephone
T^Tt^ ^-and thl? Wlt,ness 1S ust not telling the trutfi.
1 he Chairman. Give me the telephone calls.
Mr sfiT^r^?6' 8?lv- • WI are g0in^ to refresh y°ur memory.
jZ'CS ?7fiPnf^hlVn thf C°nte\t' Mr' Chairman, the tele-
gram trom Local 376 of the Teamsters to the Jefferson Chevrolet Co
commanding recognition of the union as a bargaining asent was deliv *
-wovemoer i, iy57. I hat is the same dav that Mrs Dawqnn w^fi^
she went to the Jefferson Chevrolet Co. with Mr. Lehr
1 he Chairman. The telegram had been received ? '
ass ara ems «^*^ ^9*?
Mr. Kennedy. just before that, so that we can clarify it the dav
Petrol * TeSSmer teStified he had Some conversatSn^S ' *K
Mr. Salinger Yes, sir; and that probably accounted for the 12 • 01
call before the telegram was received """tea ior tne 12 . 01
Mr. Kennedy. There was another call after that ?
home. Fmally, on the 21st of November, there is a ca 1 from til
Jefferson Chevrolet Co to the Ernie Grissom Co , followed by? call
the following morning from Mr. Lehr's home to Mr. KieTdorf's home
Mr. Lehr. What do you mean, "followed by" ? *-leraoit s honK>.
nTmti^tT "3^ mr°let <** |^^V&MS&
Mv t ^ g a • • m--you are on the Phone with Mr Kierdorf
4rh|ErHoLii j^sae ass $ *■? -ik b-— ^.
Mr T^NEv' Didn,t y°U testify Mr. Grissom sent you in there «
l^ife S^^ffi^^^ The factVatnicalLed
bearing on ?hLPallTy * ^ ***' h°W WOuld that ha™ any
MleL*H™mNiIZTe taking y°Ur ^^tions from him?
mr. lehr. jn o, 1 didn't have any instructions.
forth? °HAIRMAN- You were & there settling these strikes and so
Mf.Lehr. I never settled a strike.
MrLEHRT^^n J°li Were *.rranginS inches and so forth?
xur. lehr. 1 arranged a meeting for them.
21243— 58— pt. 35 10
13266 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. You were an intermediatory.
Proceed.
Senator Ervin. Everything seemed to get settled when you came on
the scene. I am sorry that the State Department can't send you over
to the Middle East. Maybe you could get things settled over there.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Kennedy. What about the Dawson Taylor Chevrolet Co. ?
Mr. Lehr. Mr. Kierdorf introduced me to Mr. Knight, and I knew
Mr. Knight, and he took me over.
Mr. Kennedy. If you knew him, why did he have to introduce you
to him?
Mr. Lehr. He took me over there, and I didn't know Mr. Knight
was there.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you know Mr. Knight before ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did he have to take you over ?
Mr. Lehr. I asked him to help me get a little business.
Mr. Kennedy. What did he say, "I will introduce you to Mr.
Knight"?
Mr. Lehr. That is right.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did he have to go? You could have said, "I
already know Mr. Knight."
Mr. Lehr. He didn't mention Mr. Knight.
Mr. Kennedy. You just said he did.
Mr. Lehr. I knew Mr. Knight when I got there.
Mr. Kennedy. You just told me he said, "I will take you over and
introduce you to Mr. Knight."
Mr. Lehr. It would have been a different "Knight," and I knew
Cliff Knight when I got there.
Mr. Kennedy. Why did Mr. Kierdorf have to come over there, and
why would you get Mr. Kierdorf ?
Mr. Lehr. I told you, I was trying to fight back at the association
members who were jumping all over me, and I asked Mr. Kierdorf
for a little help.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know this kind of activity of going out and
using a union to get business for a company is specifically covered in
title 18, section 1951, of the Hobbs Act? This is a violation of the
law.
Mr. Lehr. I didn't know that.
Mr. Kennedy. Getting a union official to get business for a com-
pany, either for his own company or for a company or a friend and
using union power for that purpose is a violation of the law.
Mr. Lehr. I don't think that he got any business for me. In my
mind he introduced me, Mr. Kennedy. I did the selling and dealing
with these people.
Mr. Kennedy. We have had at least 8 cases that I can think of
where we have had testimony to the contrary, where he involved him-
self, and although your testimony contradicts some of that testimony
it supports it in part, and in a number of cases where your testimony
is contradictory you have 2 witnesses on the other side.
This is the record that has been established, and there are a num-
ber of other companies like Rollie Barrett Chrysler Co.
Did Kierdorf help you with that ?
Mr. Lehr. He introduced me to Don Barrett.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13267
worthed ST Ther6 1S an°ther °ne' What ab°Ut RalPh Ells"
Mr. Lehr. He introduced me to Kalph Ellsworth.
Mr. Kennedy. That is another one. Those are two I had skipped
record off AIRMAN' """^ °th6TS are there that we don,t h^e a
Mr. Lehr. That is all, Senator. I mentioned 3 or 4 to you, and I
believe it was 3. J '
Mr. Kennedy. I will tell you the ones we have discussed. Frank
McLaughlin Pontiac.
Mr. Lehr. We had that account 4 years ago.
Mr. Kennedy And your interference in that is covered by the testi-
mony of Mr McLaughlin, and your participation in that.
1 he Gib Bergstrom Pontiac Co. and Dick Haigh Pontiac
Mr. Lehr. That is one and the same. He bought that other one
Mr. Kennedy. You were active twice?
Mr. Lehr. We had the account there.
W nV^f ^ wDY- Y°U Came ^ .and acCOTdinS to the testimony that we
had of Mr. Warren, you came in and through the efforts of Mr Kier-
sw^htyA^ow.f°rCed *° ^ JOUr COmpany When ** ™ ^,
Mr. Lehr. They weren't forced to do anything.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Warren testified
Mr. Lehr. They agreed to stay with us.
Mr. IWedy Mr Warren testified if it had not been for the inter-
ference of Mr. Kierdorf, they wouldn't have kept your company
J^^ SPS BiU R°0t Chevrolet, the Jefferson ClZEnd
Ralph El sworth Ford, and Hanley Dawson Chevrolet, and Dawson
Taylor Chevrolet,. and the Eollie Barrett Chrysler Co, and thaUs
based on a limited investigation. ' s
wlkp°W wh&t™ w°uld have done if we had stayed out there
Senator Church How many does that come to, Mr. Kennedy?
Mr. Kennedy. I believe it is nine. y '
Senator Church. It comes to nine automobile dealers?
Mr. Kennedy. One just changed its name.
Mr. Lehr. I don't have all of those companies.
Mr. Kennedy. There are eight different ones.
bulret;iSrdcsHuP^wseSforrobae de"ps d° *» do
Mr. Lehr. I would say about 20.
Senator Church So that in the course of this investigation an
proximately half of your dealerships with whom yoTdfb^usinei h?~
voLve Mr. Kierdorf in connection with the procurement? ^~
Mr. Kennedy. He got business on several of those occasions for
someone else other than his own company occasions lor
Senator Church. But in connection with your own comnanv von
do buisness now with about 20 of these dealerships / comPany> 3™
Mr. Lehr. Yes, and I have two on that list there.'
1 he Chairman. Is there anything further «
Mr. Kennedy. No.
+ JFhe Ch¥rma^- The Chair will state in each instance where wo find
testimony in such irreconcilable conflict between w^ntsles who ha^e
the same opportunity to know what the facts are, w?h^j2w
13268 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
tive except to refer the transcript to the Justice Department. That
will be done in this instance.
This committee is an agency of the Congress of the United States.
People should not be permitted to trifle with it, and to come up here
and commit perjury. Certainly the Justice Department has the duty
to pursue it.
I don't know what atrocities would disclose, but it will be the duty
of the Justice Department to make such additional investigations as
it feels are warranted. But someone is imposing on this committee.
In doing so they are imposing upon their Government.
I hope and I trust and I believe that the Justice Department will
be conscious of the importance and the significance of perjured testi-
mony before a duly constituted committee of the Congress such as this,
and where they have committed perjury, if conjections can be obtained,
it might have a salutary effect in the future.
It might serve somewhat as a deterrent, and I hope this matter will
be pursued. I am not identifying any individual at this moment, but
I am confident that this committee has been imposed upon, and that
such action should be taken.
This is the last witness for today, I think.
Mr. Kennedy. I forgot a matter, and I would like to ask about it.
Mr. Lehr, Mrs. Dawson testified that you told her that if she came
down and cooperated with the committee that she would receive a
letter. Could you tell us what you meant by that ?
Mr. Lehr. I never made any such statement to Mrs. Dawson.
Mr. Kennedy. You never did ?
Mr. Lehr. Absolutely not.
Mr. Kennedy. That is entirely incorrect? And did you say any-
thing similar to that ?
Mr. Lehr. Nothing whatsoever.
Mr. Kennedy. You never threatened her ?
Mr. Lehr. I haven't any reason to threaten Mrs. Dawson, and I
never threatened anyone.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ask her if she was cooperating with the
committee ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes ; I called Mrs. Dawson ; and when her husband called
me and told me she had gone East to testify before the committee, I
was shocked, and I didn't know what her reasons were. She came
back, and I called her, and we had coffee, and I said, "Did you go
East to testify to the committee, and what reason could you possibly
have for it?" and she said — and we talked about other things for an
hour, and I drove her back to her office.
Mr. Kennedy. Why were you shocked ?
Mr. Lehr. She had no reason to go to the committee.
The Chairman. How did you know ?
Mr. Lehr. Well, as far as Star Coverall was concerned, we hadn't
done anything.
The Chairman. How do you know that the committee didn't want
her for some other purpose ?
Mr. Lehr. Her husband made a statement to me that she went East
to testify about the overall and linen business.
The Chairman. And you got busy immediately ?
Mr. Lehr. I didn't get busy.
The Chairman. You went to see her?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13269
Mr. Lehr. Yes.
The Chairman. And you took her to lunch or coffee, and talked to
her about it?
Senator Ervin. That must have been before you had lost your
memory and while you remembered some things that you were afraid
you might be implicated about?
Mr. Lehr. I haven't lost my memory, and this woman had come
to me and I had befriended her.
Senator Ervin. If she didn't know anything that would show any
wrongdoing on your part, why were you so shocked by your thought
that she had gone to the committee ?
Mr. Lehr. I was shocked, and she had no reason to go to the com-
mittee and there was nothing involved.
Senator Erven. But it shocked you so much you went and looked
her up ?
Mr. Lehr. She was mad at everybody in the business, and the linen
supply company and she told me she was mad at the coverall company
and the association, and manufacturers and they wouldn't sell her
and stuff like that.
Senator Ervin. Do you know what that expression, "I will send vou
a letter" means? J
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Senator Ervin. You never heard it before?
Mr. Lehr. I never heard it before.
Senator Ervin. Today is the first time you ever heard it ?
Mr. Lehr. Yes, sir.
Senator Ervin. And you had no idea what it means ?
Mr. Lehr. I haven't the slightest idea, and I never threatened Mrs.
-Dawson and I don't have any reason to threaten her and I never will
threaten her.
Mr. Kennedy. Were you responsible for some of the other threats?
Mr. Lehr. Absolutely not; no, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Was your friend Angelo Meli responsible?
Mr. Lehr. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Or Vincent Meli ?
Mr. Lehr. No, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Or Santa Perrone?
Mr. Lehr. I wouldn't know.
Mr Kennedy. Or none of those other people that you are asso-
ciated with; is that right?
Mr. Lehr. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Kennedy. Louis Riccardi?
T1]VIf;1LEHR- ? wo31^n't know, and I haven't seen Mr. Riccardi since
1 left the employ of Klean Linen.
Mr. Kennedy. How many times do you think the people you have
been associated with ever been arrested for murder ?
Mr. Lehr. I haven't the slightest idea.
Mr. Kennedy. Riccardi 5 times and Angelo Meli 3 times and Santa
Perrone 2 times.
Mr. Lehr. I worked for him.
Mr. Kennedy. You worked with them ?
Mr. Lehr. I worked for them, and I drove a truck, and I had a
loute.
13270 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. And then these other individuals ?
Mr.LEHR. What other individuals?
Mr. Kennedy. Well, the Melis; Santa Perrone irjested money in
this company. •■ '
Mr. Lehr. What company ?
Mr. Kennedy. In this Star Coverall Co.
Mr. Lehr. Santa Perrone never invested a quarter to my knowledge.
Mr. Kennedy. Vincent Meli testified to that, and he gave $5,000 of
the money that started this company.
Mr. Lehr. To my knowledge, my money — I knew where it came
from.
Mr. Kennedy. Those are the people you are associated with and
whom you tell us that you never threatened anybody or know what
it means to say, "You will get a letter," you are not telling the truth
about that either.
Mr. Lehr. I will tell the truth on that point, absolutely, or any
other point, and I never threatened Mrs. Dawson and I haven't any
reason to threaten anybody or anyone. I am a businessman.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
The Chair made a statement awhile ago. He wasn't saying now
who was telling the truth or who was not, and I can say what I be-
lieve, and I believe this witness has perjured himself, and I am going
to ask the Justice Department to act with all diligence.
You may stand aside, and the committee will stand in recess until
10 : 30 a. m., next Tuesday morning.
( Whereupon, at 4 : 35 p. m., the committee adjourned to reconvene
at 10 : 30 a. m., Tuesday, August 5, 1958.3
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 13271
APPENIX
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