iilii;i:i;ii;i'sii.i^^^
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U. S. SUPT. OF DOCUMEN'ra
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT EIELD
EIGHTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 44, 86TH CONGRESS
AUGUST 11, 12, 13, 20, 21, SEPTEMBER 8 AND 9, 1959
PART 58
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
HEARINPS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
ON IMPEOPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
EIGHTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO SENATE RESOLUTION 44, 86TH CONGRESS
AUGUST 11, 12, 13, 20, 21, SEPTEMBER 8 AND 9, 1959
PART 58
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the
Labor or Management Field
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1960
Boston Public Library
Superintendent of Documents
. mR 3 1960
DEPOSITORY
SELECT COMMITTEE ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR 01
MANAGEMENT FIELD
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota, Vice Chairman
JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts BARRY GOLDWATER, Arizona
SAM J. ERVIN, Jr., North Carolina CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska
FRANK CHURCH, Idaho HOMER E. CAPEHART, Indiana
ROPERT F. Kennedy, Chief Counsel
Jerome S. Adlerman, Assistant Chief Counsel
Ruth Youno Watt, Chief Clerk
CONTENTS
Richard T. Gossek and the International Union, United Automobile
Aircraft, and Agricultural Implement Workers of America '
Appendix I 20381
Appendix II 20413
Testimony of —
Ballard, Charles 20355
Billheimer, Harold 20337, 20350
Bolman Joliii E 20237, 20320, 20333
Dale John D.. 19915 19931
Davidow, Larry S __ _ _ _ 20336
Friedman, Marcus L --I--I_"_~''I_ 19956
Goerlich Lowell M ^OsTl^ '203Y77263"l 9" 20320
Gosser Richard T 19972, 19975, 20001, 20003 20025
Gray, Mrs. Gertrude.
20352
Gray, Randolph 20237, 20276, 20319,' 2()3227203"3"572"d348, 20353
Love, Ernest H 19958
Motsinger, Jess F 20116, 20141
Martin Cyrus 20181, 20190, 20212
Rauh Joseph L., Jr 19974,20002
Schultz Melvin '20075
Speidell Lloyd 20087
Zvara, Peter _ 19943
EXHIBITS
1. Billing record of George H. Elliott & Co. for services to
the Electric Auto- Lite Co
lA. Ledger account of Charles Hardy, Inc., recording, trans-
actions with George H. Elliott & Co. for the years
1956 and 1957
Ledger account of Peter Zvara with Charles Hardy, Inc_
Check No. 537 dated December 22, 1955, payable to
Peter Zvara, in the amount of $3,149.57, drawn by
George H. Elliott & Co _
Check No. 538 dated December 22, 1955, payable" to
Peter Zvara, in the amount of $3,171.75, drawn bv
George H. Elhott & Co
Check No. 1057 dated April 30, 195"6, payable' to Charles
Hardy, Inc., m the amount of $9,000, drawn bv Georee
H. Elliott & Co __l ^
Check No. 9179 dated May 18, 1956,^ pay able to' 'p'e't'er
Zvara in the amount of $7,096.83, drawn by Charles
Hardy, Inc
4A. Check No. 1386 dated August l'4,'Y956, 'pay'able'to
Charles Hardy, Inc., in the amount of $8,250, drawn
by George H. EUiott & Co
4B. Check No. 9465 dated August l'4, 1956, pay able' to Peter
Zvara, in the amount of $7,569.38, drawn by Charles
Hardy, Inc
5A. Check No. 1607 dated October i6,"l'9"5'6',"p'a'y'able'to
Charles Hardy, Inc., in the amount of $3,166.21
drawn by George H. EUiott & Co
5B. Check No. 9749 dated November 14, 'l'956, payable to
Peter Zvara, in the amount of $5,000, drawn by
Charles Hardy, Inc
6A. Check No. 2102, dated February 8ri957,"pa'vab'le'to
Charles Hardy, Inc., in the amount of $4,700, drawn
by George H. EUiott, Inc
Introduced
on page
Appears
on page
19921 20381
IB.
2A.
2B.
3A.
19922
19922
20382
20383
19923
20384
19923
20385
19924
20386
19925
20387
19931
20388
19931
20389
19931
20390
19931
20391
19932
20392
IV
CONTENTS
Introduced
on page
6B. Check No. 10055, dated February 8, 1957, payable to
Peter Zvara, in the amount of $4,700.50, drawn by
Charles Hardy, Inc 19932
7 A. Check No. 2592,' dated April 25, 1957, payable to Charles
Hardv, Inc., in the amount of $3,400, drawn by the
George Elliott Co., Inc 19932
7B. Check No. 10268, dated April 25, 1957, payable to Peter
Zvara in the amount of $3,270.50, drawn by Charles
Hardv, Inc 19932
8A. Check No. 2744, dated June 10, 1957, payable to Charles
Hardy, Inc., in the amount of $2,900, drawn by the
George Elliott Co., Inc 19932
8B. Check No. 10430, dated June 10, 1957, payable to Peter
Zvara, in the amount of $2,896.30, drawn by Charles
Hardv, Inc 19932
9A, Check No. 2989, dated September 10, 1957, payable to
Charles Hardv, Inc., in the amount of $3,500, drawn
by the George ElUott Co., Inc 19932
9B. Cheek No. 10731, dated September 10, 1957, payable to
Peter Zvara, in the amount of $3,429.51, drawn by
Charles Hardy, Inc 19932
lOA. Check No. 3349, dated January 21, 1958, payable to
Durisol, Inc., in the amount of $3,500, drawn by the
George Elliott Co., Inc 19933
lOB. Check dated January 22, 1958, payable to Peter Zvara,
in the amount of $2,500, drawn by Durisol, Inc 19933
llA. Check No. 3547, dated March 31, 1958, payable to
Durisol, Inc., in the amount of $1,870.37, drawn by
the George Elliott Co., Inc 19933
IIB. Check No. 3549, dated March 31, 1958, payable to
Durisol, Inc., in the amount of $1,900, drawn by the
George Elliott Co., Inc 19933
lie. Check dated April 3, 1958, payable to Peter Zvara, in
the amount of $2,870.37, drawn by Durisol, Inc 19933
12A. Check No. 3832, dated July 29, 1958, payable to Durisol,
Inc., in the amount of $685.33, drawn by the George
Elliott Co., Inc 19934
12B. Check No. 12, dated July 29, 1958, payable to Peter
Zvara, in the amount of $620.68, drawn- by Durisol,
Inc 19934
13. Check No. 9173, dated October 31, 1954, payable to
Peter Zvara, in the amount of $2,377.50, drawn by
George H. Elliott & Co 19934
14. Check No. 9282, dated November 15, 1954, payable to
Peter Zvara, in the amount of $1,059.37, drawn by
George H. Elliott & Co 19934
15. Telegram dated June 22, 1959, to Mr. Robert Manuel
from Marcus L. Friedman 19957
16. Letter dated July 16, 1959, addressed to Mr. Joseph L.
Rauh, Washington, D.C., from Senator John L.
McClellan 19974
16A. Subpena No. L-7941 to Richard T. Gossa, Detroit,
Mich 19974
16B. Subpena No. L-8015 to Richard T. Gosser, vice presi-
dent, International Union, United Automobile, Aircraft
& Agricultural Implement Workers of America,
UAW-AFL-CIO, Toledo, Ohio (not signed) 19974
17. Pamphlets on the local 12 summer camp and farm 19995
18. Appraisals of property of Lowell Goerlich by Swartz-
baugh Realty Co 20002
18A. Letter dated June 25, 1959, addressed to Mr. Robert
Manuel from Joseph L. Rauh, Jr., with enclosures. _ 20002
19. Affidavit of Charles E. Yaeger 20087
20. Letter dated February 3, 1948, addressed to Richard
Gosser, vice president, UAW-CIO, Toledo, Ohio;
subject: "Breakdown on Summer Camp and Break-
down on Farm Expenses," from Randolph Gray 20099
•May be found in the files of the select committee.
(*)
(*)
(*)
(*)
CONTENTS ■ \
Introduced Appears
on page on page
21. UAW-CIO Competitive Shop Department News, De-
cember 1953: Christmas message from Richard T.
Gosser, with home addresses of staff members 20123 (*)
22. Letter addressed to "M_v dear Friend" and signed by
Senator Guv M. Gillette, with envelope addressed to
Mr. J. F. "Motsinger, 3237 Chope Place, Detroit,
Mich 20127 (*)
23. Letter dated September 4, 1959, addressed to Hon. John
L. McClellan, chairman, Select Committee To Investi-
gate Improper Activities in Labor- Management Re-
lations, from Joseph L. Rauh, Jr., Washington coun-
sel, UAW 20195 (*)
24. Photographs of C3'rus Martin after release from hos-
pital 20202 (*)
25. Statements by Cyrus Martin published in the Toledo
Blade, February 11 and 12, 1951 20208 (*)
26. Letter dated December 30, 1947, addressed to All Inter-
national Representatives, All Full Time Officers of
Local 12, from Richard Gosser, vice president, Inter-
national Union, UAW-CIO 20208 (*)
26A. Schedule of days the representatives worked at the local
12 retirement farm, also showing their attendance
record 20209 (*)
27. Letter dated December 18, 1951, addressed to Cyrus
Martin, re Willys-Overland Motors, Inc., from John
A. Hull, Jr., Regional Director, National Labor Re-
lations Board 20217 (*)
28. National Labor Relations Board form NLRB-501,
"Charge Against Employer," dated May 28, 1951,
signed by Cyrus Martin 20217 (*)
28A. Letter dated May 31, 1951, addressed to Willys-Overland
Motors, Inc., Toledo, Ohio, re Willys-Overland
Motors, Inc., from John A. Hull, Jr., Regional Di-
rector, National Labor Relations Board 20217 (*)
28B. Letter dated June 4, 1951, addressed to John A. Hull,
Jr., Regional Director, National Labor Relations
Board, from Milton McCreery, secretary, Willys-
Overland Motors, Inc 20217 (*)
29. Interoffice communication dated March 8, 1949, ad-
dressed to Cyrus Martin, from Richard Gosser; sub-
ject: Tardiness 20223 (*)
30. Letter dated February 21, 1946, addressed to Cyrus
Martin, organizer, local 12, UAW-CIO, from Richard
Gosser, director, region 2B, UAW-CIO 20226 (*)
31. Pamphlet, "Your Union Home, Local 12, UAW-CIO,"
showing pictures of officers of region 2B 20226 (*)
32. Forms showing donor and year and amounts donated to
local 12 summer camp 20227 (*)
32A. List of names to be contacted for soHcitation of dona-
tions 20228 (*)
32B. Interoffice communication dated October 11, 1949, ad-
dressed to Toots Martin from Richard Gosser; sub-
ject: Raffletickets 20230 (*)
32C. List of raffle tickets not returned as of September 9,
1949 20232 (*)
32D. List of names with amount of tickets and telephone
numbers 20233 (*)
33. Shipping tags attached to packing cases that were at the
local i2 camp, Sand Lake, Mich., indicating shipment
through Colonial Hardware 20242 (*)
34. Minutes of meeting of the Automotive Workers Building
Corp., held October 14, 1949 20245 (*)
35. Petition for injunction and accounting, Bolman v.
Gosser, court of common pleas of Lucas County, Ohio,
No. 172316 20258 (*)
♦May be found in the flies of the select committee.
yi
CONTENTS
Introduced Appears
on page on page
36. Opinion of the court of appeals, Lucas County, Ohio,
March 13, 1950, Bolman v. Automotive Workers Build-
ing Corp., Cause 'No. S2251 20261 (*)
37. Letter dated January 30, 1950, addressed to John A.
Bolman from Emil Mazey, secretary-treasurer, UAW-
CIO 20262 (*)
37A. Resolution expelling John A. Bolman from membership
intheUAW 20262 (*)
38. Constitution of the International Union, United Auto-
mobile, Aircraft, and Agricultural Implement Workers
of America, UAW-CIO, adopted at Milwaukee, Wis.,
July 1949 20263 (*)
39 A. Letter dated May 3, 1950, addressed to Emil Mazey,
secretary-treasurer, international union, UAW-CIO,
signed by H. P. Ells 20263 (*)
39B, Letter dated May 17, 1950, addressed to Hal P. Ells,
Toledo, Ohio, from Emil Mazey, secretary-treasurer,
international union, UAW-CIO 20263 (*)
40. Invoices of the Colonial Hardware Co 20269 (*)
40A. Document, "Examples of Colonial Hardware Over-
charges" 20270 (*)
4lA. Letter dated February 2, 1947, addressed to Inter-
national Representatives, Region 2B, UAW-CIO,
Local 12 Full Time Officers, from Richard Gosser,
Director, Region 2B, UAW-CIO 20276 (*)
41 B. Letter dated January 14, 1948, addressed to Inter-
national Representatives, Full Time Local 12 OflHcers,
from Richard Gosser, vice president, international
union, UAW-CIO.. 20276 (*)
41C. Interoffice communication dated November 4, 1949;
signed bv Richard Gosser, vice president. Inter-
national Union, UAW-CIO 20276 (*)
42. Memorandum dated December 15, 1948, addressed to
Randolph Gray, from Richard Gosser, vice president,
international union, UAW-CIO 20281 (*)
43A. Memorandum dated June 27, 1947, addressed to Norman
Mevers, from Richard Gosser. Subject: Summer
canip bills for payment 20282 (*)
43B. Letter dated December 8, 1947, addressed to Frank
Molik, director, local 12 summer camp, from Richard
Gosser, vice president, international union, UAW-
CIO 20282 (*)
43C. Letter dated March 15, 1948, addressed to Richard
Gosser, vice president, UAW-CIO, from Perry
Rippopelle, farm superintendent 20282 (*)
43D. Memorandum dated March 30, 1948, addressed to
Randolph Gray from Richard Gosser 20282 (*)
43E. Memorandum dated April 14, 1948, addressed to
Randolph Gray from Richard Gosser. Subject:
Local 12 summer camp and retirement farm 20282 (*)
43F. Letter dated Februarv 11, 1949, addressed to Birdie
Rule, recreation director, local 12, UAW-CIO, from
Richard Gosser, president 20282 (*)
44. Sales slips and invoices from Colonial Hardware repre-
senting charges to local 12 general fund, and letter
dated June 2l, 1949, to Burny Zawodny from Richard
Gosser 20283 (*)
45. "Machine report" dated December 19, 1947, showing
amount paid out and amount received, and official
membership receipt No. R-482869, for $116.08 20302 (*)
46. Reports and summary of international executive board
action on Toledo situation, June 9, 1950 20308 (*)
47. Depositionof Randolph Gray taken September 28, 1950- 20316 (*)
48. Deposition of Joseph Ossanna taken September 15, 1950- 20320 (*)
49. Letter dated August 14, 1950, addressed to Messrs.
Smith and Ells, Toledo, Ohio from A. L. Nagel 20323 (*)
•May be found in the files of the select committee.
CONTENTS Vn
Introduced Appears
on page on page
50. Report to Richard Gosser from Randolph Gray, dated
September 26, 1949, re summary of farm and summer
camp 20324 (*)
51. Copy of audit report of local 12 for January 1950 20328 (*)
52. Page 5 of the Toledo Union Journal, June 16, 1950,
showing local 12 audit report 20328 (*)
53. Letter dated February 18, 1946, addressed to Ollie
Pecord, managing editor, Toledo Union Journal, from
Richard Gosser, director, region 2B, UAW-CIO 20332 (*)
54. Letter dated June 7, 1950, addressed to the Interna-
tional Executive Board, International Union, UAW-
CIO, from Committee for Democratic Unionism 20339 (*)
55. Open letter to Walter Reuther and the special investi-
gating Committee, international executive board,
UAW-CIO, dated January 29, 1950, from members
of Spicer, DeVilbiss, Willys-Overland, National Sup-
ply, and Mather Spring units of local 12, UA W-CIO_ . 20342 (*)
56. Letter dated Mav 1, 1950, addressed to Walter P.
Reuther from Eddie Duck 20348 (*)
57. Transcript of statements made to UAW-CIO special
Toledo investigating committee, June 1, 1950 20351 (*)
58. Letter dated June 12, 1950, addressed to Edward Duck
from Emil Mazey, secretary-treasurer, UAW-CIO__ 20351 (*)
59. Report of the Board of International Trustees and In-
ternational Secretary Treasurer Emil Mazey, January
1, 1958 to December 31, 1958 20354 (*)
60. Bills and invoices, together with checkbook of region 2B
flower fund, Charles Ballard, director 20361 (*)
60 A. Deposit receipts from the Toledo Trust Co., with letters
indicating deposits by Charles Ballard 20361 (*)
61. Letter dated September 15, 1959, addressed to Hon.
John L. McClellan, Washington, D.C., from Larry S.
Davidow; and affidavit of Larry S. Davidow 20377 (*)
Proceedings of — ■
August 11, 1959 19915
August 12, 1959 19971
August 13, 1959 20025
August 20, 1959 20109
August 21, 1959 20141
Septembers, 1959 20183
September 9, 1959 20275
•May be found in the files of the select committee.
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
(On August 11, 1959, John D. Dale, Marcus L. Friedman, Ernest H. Love, and
Peter Zvara testified in executive session before the Senate Select Committee on
Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Field. This testimony was
made public by the members of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in
the Labor or Management Field on August 19, 1959, and follows below.)
TUESDAY, AUGUST 11, 1959
U.S. Senate,
Selectt Committee on Improper Activities
IN THE Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D.G.
The select committee met at 12 :10 p.m., pursuant to Senate Reso-
lution 44, agreed to February 2, 1959, in room 3302, Senate Office
Building, Senator Jolin L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, of Arkansas ; Sen-
ator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, of South Dakota ; Senator John F.
Kennedy, Democrat, of Massachusetts; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr.,
Democrat, of North Carolina; Senator Frank Church, Democrat, of
Idaho; Senator Barry Goldwater, Republican, of Arizona; Senator
Carl T. Curtis, Republican, of Nebraska; Senator Homer E. Cape-
hart, Republican, of Indiana.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief coimsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, assistant chief counsel ; P. Kenneth O'Donnell, assistant counsel ;
Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel ; Robert E. Manuel, assistant coun-
sel ; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator ; Carmine S. Bellino, consult-
ing accountant; Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
(Members of the select committee present at time of convening:
Senators McClellan, Mundt, Kennedy, Ervin, Church, Capehart, Gold-
water, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Please be sworn.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Dale. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN D. DALE
The Chairman. Senator Curtis, before you proceed to interrogate
the witness, do you want to make any statement for the record as to
the purposes of the investigation ?
19915
19916 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. The purpose of this investigation is to lay before
the committee in executive session certain information that has come
to me, for the purpose of delivering that information to the committee
in executive session, under oath, so that the committee might decide
whether or not a full-fledged investigation should be niade. This is
not presented with the idea that it is a completed investigation.
Mr. Dale, where do you reside ?
Mr. Dale. Neversink River Road, Red Bank, N.J.
Senator Curtis. What is your business or profession ?
Mr. Dale. I am a management consultant.
Senator Curtis. With what company ?
Mr. Dale. The George Elliott Co., of New York.
Senator Curtis. That is at 521 Fifth Avenue ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir ; it is 400 Park Avenue now.
Senator Curtis. How long have you been with the George Elliott
Co.?
Mr. Dale. Since late 1955.
Senator Curtis. "Who were you with before that ?
Mr. Dale. The Charles Hardy, Inc.
Senator Curtis. Wliat was the work of that firm ?
Mr. Dale. Research and development in powder metallurgy and
industrial consultant.
Senator Curtis. You are an engineer ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir. I do not have a degree in engineering.
Senator Curtis. Wliat type of surveying or service does the George
Elliott Co. render to companies?
JNIr. Dale. Two major areas, one in the manufacturing field. We
specialize in industrial engineering, wage incentive systems, produc-
tion, planning and control systems, employee training programs, stand-
ard cost accounting systems. Broadly, management systems.
And in the other area, in executive personnel, we do appraisal, selec-
tion procedures, training, and related items.
Senator Curtis. Are you an owner or part owner of the George
Elliott Co. ?
Mr. Dale. I am the controlling interest.
Senator Curtis. In the recent years, have you had contracts to
perform work lor any industrial concerns in the Toledo, Ohio area?
Mr. Dale. Sir, we never work under contract in the sense of a signed
document. We have been engaged in the Toledo area.
Senator Curtis. You have been employed by firms in the Toledo
area?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And among those firms was there the Willys-
Overland Co. ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And Doehler Jarvis Co. ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Textileather Co. ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Electric Auto-Lite ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Gerity Machine Corp. ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19917
Mr. Dale. I believe we did, but that was before my time. In fact,
most of these were before my time. That was a partnership in those
days.
Senator Curtis. But you continued on with some of these trans-
actions, did you not ?
Mr. Dale. Electric Auto-Lite and Textileather.
Senator Curtis. How about Willys-Overland?
Mr. Dale. I wasn't with the firm then.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Manuel, you may proceed.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Dale, what was the original name of the George
Elliott Co. ?
Mr. Dale. George H. Elliott & Co., a partnership.
Mr. Manuel. That was a partnership owned by whom ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. George Elliott.
Mr. Manutel. Did you buy Mr. George Elliott's interest in the
partnership ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir. It had been incorporated on May 1, 1955, and I
acquired the controlling interest on January 3, 1956.
Mr. Manuel. In response to Senator Curtis' questioning a while
ago, you identified certain Toledo manufacturers with whom you had
contracts to perform certain services, oral contracts at least.
Do you know whether Doehler Jarvis bargains collectively with
the United Automobile Workers ?
Mr. Dale. I understand they do.
Mr. Manuel. And how about Electric Auto-Lite ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. How about the Gerity Machine Corp.?
Mr. Dale. I don't know about that one, sir.
Mr. Manuel. How about Willys-Overland ?
Mr. Dale. I understand they do, too.
Mr. JVIanuel. How about Textileather?
Mr. Dale. I believe that is another union.
INIr. Manuel. That is in fact represented by the United Textile
Workers ; is that right ?
Mr. Dale. I believe it is, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you testify before a grand jury in New York in
the spring of this year ?
Mr. Dale. Yes; I did.
Mr. Manuel. And did you receive immunity from prosecution of
any laws which might have been violated ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. George Elliott appear there, too, as a witness?
Mr. Dale. I understand he did.
The Chairman. Let me get this straight for my information. You
mean you couldn't testify or didn't testify before the grand jury until
they granted you some immunity ?
Mr. Dale. They offered me immunity, which I took, or accepted,
whatever the proper term is.
The Chairman. For what ?
Mr. Dale. For testifying in this matter.
The Chairman. What is your immunity from ?
Mr. Dale. From prosecution in the State of New York.
19918 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. In other words, if you testified, they agreed not to
prosecute you in the State of New York ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. IVIanuel. Do you know whether or not Mr. George Elliott also
received immunity ?
Mr. Dale. I do not know, sir.
Mr. Manuel. He did not testify at any time when you were there?
Mr. Dale. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know Mr. Peter Zvara ?
Mr. Dale, Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Have you met Mr. Zvara?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Wlien did you first meet Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Dale. Late in 1955. I believe it was during the month of
November.
Mr. Manuel. November 1955. What was your connection with the
George Elliott firm then?
Mr. Dale. I was a consultant, part time on the staff.
Mr. Manuel. You were not a part owner ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Wliere did you first meet Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Dale. At the Taft Hotel in New York.
Mr. Manuel. Will you describe to the committee the circumstances
surrounding that meeting ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Elliott — George Elliott— asked me if I wanted to run
over to the Taft and just meet some of the people connected with the
Doehler Jarvis union committees who happened to be in New York,
and he said I should Imow these people because I would probably
be seeing something of them in future years, and would I like to just
go along.
So I said. "Yes, I would." We went to the hotel. Mr. Elliott and
I went to the bar downstairs. A few minutes later a man whom^ I
later was introduced to as Peter Zvara and several other men came in.
We were introduced. We had a drink together, and then Mr. Elliott
und I left.
Mr. JNIanuel. Is that all that transpired at that meeting?
Mr. Dale. That is all.
Mr. IVIanuel. Were there any other officials of the UAW at that
meeting in the Taft Hotel?
Mr. Dale. I believe — I understood Mr. Elliott to say that these
other men were representatives of the local unions of Doehler Jarvis
in other cities.
Mr. Manuel. Had Mr. Elliott made previous arrangements with
Mr. Zvara of any type with regard to a commission ; that is, prior to
the time you first talked ?
Mr. Dale. I do know now, but I didn't know then. I know he
had made an agreement.
Mr. IVIanuel. Would you tell the chairman what those arrange-
ments were?
Senator Ervin. This would seem to be hearsay. Is there some
way to show how he acquired the information ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19919
Mr. Manuel. I think lie lias firsthand knowledge from examining
the records.
Senator Ervin. Let him show what the records had. The point I
am making is that he didn't know at the time. That is why I think
it is essential to show if he has any credibility — or to determine his
credibility — on how he came into possession of the knowledge, if he
did.
Mr. Manuel. I will lay a foundation.
How did you arrive at this knowledge that you say you now have ?
Mr. Dale. After I took title to the controlling interest in the com-
pany, the date of controlling interest was January 3, 1956. I believe
it was 9 days later, on the 12th of January, Mr. Elliott first disclosed
to me in the presence of Mr. Zvara that he had made an agreement to
pay Mr. Zvara a commission for obtaining the Electric Auto-Lite Co.
assignment.
Mr. IVIanuel. That was the first time you were notified of this
arrangement, then ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Can you describe to the committee exactly what the
arrangement was, what services you were to perform, what services
Mr. Zvara was to perform, and his method of compensation ?
Mr. Dale, Mr. Zvara had performed his responsibility with Mr.
Elliott by somehow arranging for the Elliott Co. to get the assignment
at the Electric Auto-Lite Co. I was told that it was an obligation of
the company to pay Mr. Zvara a commission of 15 percent of the net
engineering service billing after it was collected from the client for
having obtained the business.
Mr. Manuel. To pay the company. Wlien you say that, you mean
the Elliott Co. ?
Mr. Dale. For the Elliott Co. to pay Mr. Zvara.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know what Toledo employer your company
then had this contract with ? At the time you were told of the arrange-
ment, what contract with what employer was then being performed ?
Mr. Dale. That was the Electric Auto-Lite Co.
Mr. Manuel. What job did Mr. Zvara then hold with the UAW,
if any ?
Mr. Dale. He was — I believe his title was regional director of the
United Auto Workers in Toledo. His only duties were connected with
the Doehler Jarvis Co., as I understood it at the time.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know what his exact title was with Doehler
Jarvis ?
Mr. Dale. I don't know for sure. I believe it was regional director.
Mr. Manuel. Do you understand that he was codii-ector of the
Doehler Jarvis Council ?
Mr. Dale. I don't know exactly, not even now.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know what the Doehler Jarvis Council is ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know on whose staff Mr. Zvara was assigned
at that time ?
Mr. Dale. Well, I
Mr. Manuel. Who was his immediate superior ?
Mr. Dale. I understand he reported to Mr. Gosser.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Richard T. Gosser ?
19920 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Dale. Eichard T. Gosser.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know that lie is vice president of the UAW ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. IVIanuel. Do you understand that Mr. Zvara took his orders and
authority directly from Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Dale. I don't know for a fact, but I would presume that he
does.
Mr. Manuel. After you became owner of the company, or part
owner, did you then obtain any contract to do some of the work with
Toledo employers ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. With whom?
Mr. Dale. Textileather Co.
Mr. Manuel. Well, stop there.
Would you describe the arrangement which was made with Texti-
leather and how did Mr. Zvara come into that picture ? Textileather
negotiated with the United Textile Workers ; is that correct ?
Mr. Dale. I believe it was.
Mr. ]VIanuel. Would you tell us how Mr. Zvara came into that
picture ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Zvara called me in New York one day, and this was
while the Electric Auto-Lite Co. project was still going on, and asked
me if the same commission arrangement as agreed to previously would
be continued if our services were needed at the Textileather Division
of the General Tire & Rubber Co.
I asked him then what the union was, and he told me it was, I be-
lieve, the Textile Workers' Union, if that is the correct title; and I
asked him if he had anything to do with the union, and he said "No."
Then I said, "All right, then, the same arrangement will prevail."
Mr. JVIanuel. Did you understand that Zvara would be interested
in getting that contract for your company or that his assistance would
be needed, that is, with Textileather ?
Mr. Dale. My understanding was that there was work that was
going to be done, and that he could be somehow influential in having
us, with several others being considered, appointed to do the work.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, we have certain records which have
been obtained by this committee from the Hogan grand jury in New
York. I should like to ask
The Chairman. Were these records obtained by subpena ?
Mr. Manuel. By your request, sir ; just a letter, I believe.
The Chairman. By a letter of request.
Mr. Manuel. Then Mr. Hogan got an order of the court releasing
them to you, sir.
The Chairman. These are part of the grand jury records ?
Mr. Manuel. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You may proceed with the records.
Mr. Manuel. Would you take these records, Mr. Dale, and see if
you can identify them and describe what they are ?
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Manuel. Look at the first one you have in your hand. Wliat
is that item ?
Mr. Dale. These two are ledger sheets from the Charles Hardy Co.
Mr. Manuel. Charles Hardy, both of them ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19921
Mr. Dale. Both of these are ; yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What is the yellow one ?
The Chairman. Are you going to make a record now ?
Mr. Manuel. I am not quite ready for the Charles Hardy records
yet. I want him to identify them first.
What are the yellow pages ?
Mr. Dale. Sir, this is the first time I have ever seen these records.
I don't recognize the handwriting. It is dated May 31, 1950, and on
the second page it is headed up, ''Doehler Jarvis Corp."
Mr. Manuel. Do you know whether or not those are transcripts
of the Elliott Co, books and records ?
Mr. Dale. They seem to be worksheets. I don't see the name Elli-
ott on them anywhere here, but I am not here to speculate, sir.
Senator Church. You can't identify that yellow sheet positively?
Mr. Dale. No. I have never seen these before.
The Chairman. The yellow sheet will be withdrawn.
Mr. Manuel. You can identify the other two originals ?
Mr. Dale. These two I have seen.
Mr. Manuel. Would you pick up the one you have in your hand
and identify that ?
Mr. Dale. This is the billing record of service charges to the Elec-
tric Auto-Lite Co. of the George Elliott Co.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, may that be made exhibit No. 1 ?
The Chairman. The document you now have in your hand is what ?
Mr. Dale. It is the billing record of the George Elliott Co. service
charges to the Electric Auto-Lite Co.
The Chairman. Are you familiar with that record ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you keep that record ?
Mr. Dale. It was kept in my company.
The Chairman. Kept in your company as a part of your company's
records ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That docmnent, consisting of one sheet, may be
made exhibit No. 1.
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 1" for reference
and will be found in the appendix on p. 20381.)
Mr. Manuel. All right, Mr. Dale. Now, would you pick up the
other folio of the Charles Hardy Co. and tell us what that is ?
Mr. Dale. The sheet I now hold in my hand is the ledger account
of the Hardy Co. recording transactions wdth the George Elliott Co.
for the years 1956 and 1957.
Mr. Manuel. May that be made an exhibit, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. You identify that personally ? You know that to
be the document you have described ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is a part of your records, the records of your
company ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir. These are part of the records of the Chailes
Hardy Co.
The Chairman. How do you identify them ?
Mr. Dale. I was president of that company for 10 years.
The Chairman. At the time these records were made ?
19922 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Dale. No, sir. I ceased to be president at the end of 1955, but
because I was a director of that company, I am personally familiar
with these records.
The Chairman. You are still a director in the company ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit No. 1-A. I think they
may all tie together, though I don't know.
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 1-A" for refer-
ence and will be found in the appendix on p. 20382.)
(At this point Senator Mundt withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Manuel. And what is the other record that you have? Can
you identify that ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir; I can. This is the account of the Charles
Hardy Co., the ledger account of Peter Zvara of the Charles Hardy Co.
Mr. Manuel. That shows the commissions paid Mr. Zvara through
the Charles Hardy Co.?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What are those amounts ? Just the total.
Mr. Dale. In the year 1956, $19,666.21 ; in 1957, $14,296.81.
Senator Church. May I ask at this point, has there been previous
testimony with respect to the Charles Hardy Co., and its relationship
with Peter Zvara ? I understood at the time you had you contact with
Peter Zvara it was in connection with your association with the
George Elliott Co. I may be confused. But how does the Charles
Hardy Co. enter the picture ?
Mr. Dale. I asked my brother, who succeeded me as president of
the Hardy Co., to pay these commissions to Peter Zvara because I
didn't want to sliow them on the records of the George Elliott Co. as
having been paid to Peter Zvara.
Senator Church. Was this money paid out of moneys belonging to
the Charles Hardy Co.?
Mr. Dale. No ; these were commissions paid to Hardy who, in turn,
paid the commissions to Zvara.
Senator Church. In other words, the transaction was a coverup,
money moving from the Elliott Co. to the Hardy Co., and from the
Hardy Co. to Zvara ; is that correct ?
Mr. Dale. Yes. I had another motive, if you are interested in it.
Senator Church. What was your other motive, besides the coverup ?
Mr. Dale. To let Mr. Zvara know that no longer would he and
one other person and I be the only people that knew that a commis-
sion was being paid.
Senator Goldwater. "\Y1io was the other person ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Elliott's former secretary, Miss Gould.
The Chairman. Do you want that document made an exhibit?
Mr. Manuel. Yes.
The Chairman. That document may be made exhibit No. 1-B.
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 1-B" for
reference) and will be foimd in the appendix on p. 20383.)
Senator Church. Why did you want others to know ?
Mr. Dale. I wanted to stop the payment of commissions to Mr.
Zvara.
(At this point Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing
room.)
EVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19923
Senator Church. What was your relationship to Charles Hardy ?
Mr. Dale. I was a member of the board of directors. In fact, I was
chairman of the board at the time.
Senator Church. And were you related to Mr. Charles Hardy ?
Mr. Dale. No ; I was not.
Senator Ken^nedy. Do you have an attorney with you ?
Mr. Dale. Today, sir ?
Senator Ivennedy. Yes.
Mr. Dale. No ; I do not.
Senator Kennedy. You said you were given immunity in New York.
Has your attorney advised you whether any of your testimony this
morning, I don't know what it will be, will get you into any difficidty
with regard to the Federal law, the Taft-Hartley?
Mr. Dale. My attorney has advised me in that regard.
Senator Kennedy. That you are liable because of your testimony
this morning to prosecution ?
Mr. Dale. I understand so.
Senator Ivennedy. But you are familiar with that ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you wish an attorney here ?
Mr. Dale. Not at this time.
Senator Curtis. I apologize to the witness for not asking the ques-
tion initially.
(At this point Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Mr. ]\Ianuel. I should like those checks to be identified, Mr. Chair-
man, by this witness, if he can.
The Chairman. You may present them to the witness.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Manuel. Would you look at those two exhibits and see if you
can identify them ?
Mr. Dale. Yes ; I can.
Mr. Manuel. What are they ?
Mr. Dale. Check No. 537, of George H. Elliott & Co., Inc., payable
to Peter Zvara, in the amount of $3,149.67.
Mr. Manuel. Is that endorsed by Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Do you recognize that as his signature ?
Mr. Dale. I do.
The Chairman. "\^niat is the date of it ?
Mr. Dale. December 22, 1955.
Mr. Manuel. What is the other one ?
Mr. Dale. The second check is No. 538 of the same date, payable
to Peter Zvara, in the amount of $3,171.75.
Mr. Manuel. Is that endorsed by Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Do you recognize the signature as his?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
The Chairman. Both checks may be made exhibits — are they the
same date ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits Nos. 2-A and 2-B.
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 2-A and 2-B" for
reference, and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20384-20385.)
36751— 60— pt. 58 2
19924 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Manuel. Were those payments made to Zvara while Mr. George
Elliott still owned this company ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Do you recall any conversations about the time those
payments were made ; that is, what Mr. Elliott may have told you as to
the reasons prompting these payments ?
Mr. Dale. Yes. Mr. Elliott came in on that same day and said —
I am going to pay some of the commissions that we owe rather than let them
run into next year when the commissions will be heavy. I am going to pay
some commissions now and I am just letting you know that I am doing this, if
you have no objection.
He didn't tell me who they were payable to and he didn't show me the
checks.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Chairman, I have two more checks here, one
dated April 30, 1956, and May 18, 1956. I believe they go together.
They could be made exhibit 3-A, if you wish.
After these payments were made here
Senator Ervin. Perhaps you wish to wait until these checks have
been identified.
(The documents were handed to the witness-)
The Chairman. I do not want to interrupt you, but you ought to
say what you are doing when you present these to the witness.
Mr. Manuel. I only want him to identify the checks he was just
handed, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I don't want to take this over ; I want you to do it.
But if you want a record, you better make it.
Mr. Manuel. Can you identify those two checks you now hold in
your hand?
Mr. Dale. Check No. 1057 of George H. Elliott & Co., Inc., dated
April 30, 1956, payable to Charles Hardy, Inc., in the amount of
$9,000, that I can identify.
Mr. Manuel. Did you sign that check ?
Mr. Dale. I was one of the two signatures.
Mr. Manuel. What is the other one you have ?
Mr. Dale. The other one is a check of Charles Hardy, Inc., dated
May 18, 1956, payable to Peter Zvara, in the amount of $7,096.87.
Mr. Manuel. After the first two payments in December of 1955, I
believe it was
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Witness, do you identify those checks as you have stated ?
Mr, Dale. I think this is the first time I have seen this check [in-
dicating] , except that I may have seen it in a heap before.
The Chairman. Do you identify one check ?
Mr. Dale. I identified the Elliott Co. check, sir.
The Chairman. The Elliott Co. check may be made exhibit No. 3.
(Check referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 3" for reference and
will be found in the appendix on p. 20386.)
Senator Goldwater. Whose signature is on the check ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. George W. Haas, Jr., and Mr. F. H. Mulligan.
Senator Goldwater. Are they members of the firm ?
Mr. Dale. They are both officers of the Hardy Co.
Senator Curtis. And this is the company that you were a director
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19925
Mr. Dale. That is riglit, sir.
Senator Curtis. And you know what the transaction nivolves ?
Mr. Dale. Yes. , , , , . jt ^-u
Senator Curtis. And you know that that check was a part ot the
transaction, of which you had the knowledge ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Even though you, yourself, didn't see it ?
Mr. Dale. Eight. i i i xi
Mr. Manuel. Does that bear an endorsement on the back, the one
you have now i
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat endorsement?
Mr. Dale. Peter Zvara.
Mr. Manuel. Do you recognize that as Peter Zvara's signature i
Mr. Dale. Yes.
The Chairman. It is made payable to Mr. Zvara i
Mr. Dale. Yes, it is. • i ^- ^ o
The Chaieman. And it bears his endorsement which you identity i
Mr. Dale. Yes. , i •. ^t o a
The Chairman. That check may be made exhibit ISo. 6-A.
(Check referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 3-A" for reference
and will be f omid in the appendix on p. 20387. )
Mr Manuel. The check payable to the Charles Hardy Co., did you
not iust say that certain officials in the Elliott Co. became alarmed pos-
sibly you for one of them, that the payments might be detected it they
continued to come from the Elliott Co. ? .i tt i r^
Mr Dale. There are two reasons why I wanted to use the Hardy Co.
One was that the Association of Consulting Management Engineers m
its code of ethics prohibits the payment of commissions on engineering
business, and I did not want our company to show it until i could put
a stop to the payment of conmiissions.
The second reason was that I wanted Mr. Zvara to know that some-
one else would be informed of the payment of these commissions to
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Zvara agree to this procedure, that you would
send the payment to the Charles Hardy Co. ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, he did. ^ . w i • •
Mr Manuel. Was there any discussion that that might be wise m
view of the fact that this committee might become aware ot these trans-
actions ? Do you recall any such statements ?
Mr. Dale. That was mentioned later on. -, i i •
Mr. Manuel. But not at this time? Or prior to these checks being
^ Mr^ Dale. No. We discussed it from another point of view at that
*^^r Manuel. Wliile you are on the subject, what were those con-
versations, the fear that this committee might learn about it, and who
made those statements, the best you can remember^
Mr Dale. As I recall it, those discussions came about either later
in 1956 or early 1957, when 1 was still trying to put a stop to the
arrangement. It might have even been early 1958. I am very hazy
on the date. But the publicity in the newspaper f/he time was such
that I asked Mr. Zvara on one occasion what if the McClellan com-
mittee should get interested in this, and he said, "Well, as far as I am
19926 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
advised, there is absolutely no violation of the law, neither by you
people nor us. I am not directly involved in any of these companies.
I am completely independent in what I am doing here."
The Chairman. That is his statement to you ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, substantially, sir. I am not quoting.
The Chairman. In other words, when some question arose about
this committee might get information that such transactions were
going on, he took the position that there was nothing wrong in it, is
that what you are saying ?
]\Ir. Dale. Nothing illegal.
The Chahiman. Nothing illegal ?
Mr. Dale. Right.
The Chairivian. It wasn't a question, then, of ethics, as such, pri-
marily, but there was no illegal act being committed ?
]\Ir. Dale. That was his position.
Tlie Chairman. Did he or did he not indicate any apprehension as
to the consequences if this committee got hold of it ?
Mr. Dale. Well, that was indicated to me the first day I met Zvara,
but only indicated and not in relation to the McClellan committee.
That was that he didn't want anybody else to know about the payment
of these commissions.
The Chairman. That is wlien the transactions first started with you ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He didn't want anybody else to know about it then «
Mr. Dale. That is right.
The Chairman. But on the question of this committee finding out
about it, that came up later?
Mr. Dale. That is right.
The Chairman. And not at the time the transactions were initiated ?
Mr. Dale. That is right.
Senator Church. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Church.
Senator Church. May I ask : Over what period of time did these
transactions continue; that is, roughly from when to when did you
pay Mr. Zvara commissions for contract work procured through him?
Air. Dale. The Electric Auto-Lite assignment, I believe, started in
October 1955. Offliand, I am not aware of any payments to him on
that assignment before the December 22 checks, of 1955.
Senator Church. The agreement, at least, was reached in October
1955 ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Elliott made that agreement. I am not certain of
the date.
Senator Church. Yes, I Imow. But I am talking about the trans-
action as between the Elliott Co. both prior to the time you took con-
trolling interest and after the time you took controlling interest, to get
the span of years involved that these transactions took place.
Mr. Dale. That was on or about October 1955, until May of 19—1
wish I had my record here, whether it was 1957 or 1958.
Senator Church. Assuming that the span of years covered the
period from October 1955 to May of 1958, you took controlling inter-
est in January of 1956 ?
Mr. Dale. That is right, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19927
Senator Church. You have referred to these transactions as in vio-
lation of the engineers' code of ethics. Did you always so regard
them ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Senator Church. Did you regard them as illegal, or merely in vio-
lation of the code, the standards of ethics?
]\Ir. Dale. Merely in violation of the code of ethics.
Senator Church. You regard them merely as violations of the ethi-
cal code?
Mr. Dale. Yes. sir.
Senator Church. Why was it so long after you took control of the
company that you continued these arrangements, if you regarded them
as unethical?
Mr. Dale. On March 31, 1956, I was supposed to make my final
payment under the contract of purchase and sale for the controlling
interest in the Elliott Co. to ]\Ir. Elliott. Between the date that I
took control, January 3, and March 31, 1 discovered certain irregulari-
ties, and certain exceptions that I should take with respect to my con-
tract with Mr. Elliott. When I wrote Mr. Elliott on January 3 —
excuse me. When I wrote him on March 31 and told him why I was
deducting some 23-odd thousand dollars, Mr. Elliott became very
angry and started writing personal letters to several of our clients, to
officers of the company, and to other employees, making statements
which were not true, and which are now the subject of two actions in
the Federal court in Kansas City.
At the same time, he had one conversation — I was informed he had
one conversation — with Mr. Zvara, the effect of which was to tell Mr.
Zvara that I was going to back out on the agreement that the com-
pany had made to pay him commissions on the Electric Auto-Lite job,
and it was either on August 5 or 6, 1956, that Mr. Zvara met Mr.
Elliott at an airport, which I believe was Philadelphia, where this
matter was discussed.
I was caught square between the fires, of refusing to pay the com-
missions to Mr. Zvara, which he believed he had earned, and Mr.
Elliott telling Zvara that I was not going to pay him and back out
on the agreement.
It was around August 5 that Mr. Zvara asked me for reassurance
that there would be no stoppage of the commission payments.
Senator Church. Let me ask you this : Following the time that you
took controlling interest of the company, did you enter into any sub-
sequent agreements with Mr. Zvara involving the payment of money
to him on a commission basis for work procured for the company?
Mr. Dale. That was the one continuation.
Senator Church. I mean following the time you took controlling
interest, did you enter into any new, subsequent agreements, relating
to any new companies under the terms of which you agreed to pay
Zvara a commission for procuring the contract for your company?
Or were your payments following the time you took control all made
pursuant to agreements that had previously been entered into ?
Mr. Dale. They were pursuant to the same old agreement, but the
identification was specific as to the Textileather assignment.
Senator Church. The Textileather assignment, did you enter into
that agreement following the time you took control of the company ?
Was that a new agreement, a new arrangement ?
19928 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Dale. The same old arrangement. Mr. Elliott told me that he
made an agreement with Mr. Zvara that he would pay a 15 percent
commission on any business referred ot him.
Senator Church. I know. But after you took controlling interest
of the company, if you regarded that practice as miethical, you didn't
feel bound by it, did you, to extend it to new companies, after you had
control of the Elliott Co. ?
Mr. Dale. I felt bound primarily because of the basic agreement
to pay a commission for business referred, but also the Electric Auto-
Lite Co. job was still in progress, and we had so much trouble on that
job that I didn't want to take any risk of interrupting that one, nor
of breaking the agreement off completely with Mr. Zvara at that
time.
But he had been told that we would discontinue the agreement.
Senator Church. But you didn't discontinue it until May of 1958,
which is about 2i/^ years after you took control of the company.
Mr. Dale. I have forgotten the date of the last payment. The
record would show that. I believe it was about that time.
Senator Church. That is all.
The Chairman. Let me get one thing straight, if I can, for clarifica-
tion.
This Mr. Zvara, at the time you were making these payments and
arrangements with him, even continuing the old agreement, was an
official of the UAW ; am I correct ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, he was all that time.
The Chairman. And these commissions that you were paying were
on business secured from companies that had a union contract, or a
working agreement, with the UAW imion ; is that right ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Senator Ervin. That was true, you stated, with reference to the
Auto-Lite Co. But with reference to the Textileather Co., you said
the union that was dealing with reference to their employees was the
Textile Workers, and not the UAW ?
Mr. Dale. That is correct.
The Chairman. One was one and one was the other ?
Mr. Dale. That is correct.
Senator Ervin. Were there any other companies that Zvara got you
business from ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir.
Senator Ervin. Just these two ?
Mv. Dale. I am quite sure there were no others. I think there were
just those two that Mr. Zvara was paid a commission on.
Senator Capehart. Did the Auto-Lite Co. know that Mr. Zvara, a
UAW Union official, was getting this commission ?
Mr. Dale. No.
Senator Capehart. They did not know it?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. By way of background information, these surveys
and services that you rendered to the company, the object of them
was to make their operation more efficient, was it not ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19929
Senator Curtis. Did that sometimes eliminate jobs or steps in
processes that would lessen the labor cost ?
Mr. Dale. If the production level held at the same output, the likeli-
hood would be that there would be fewer people employed.
(At this point Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. And generally surveys of this kind are not looked
upon with favor always by the rank-and-file union people; is that
correct ?
Mr. Dale. Sir, this was not a survey. This was an engineered per-
formance standard.
Senator Curtis. This service, there is some resistance at times on
the part of the union people ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Is that quite a problem ?
Mr. Dale. We have it on almost every job.
Senator Curtis. When you made these commission payments to
Mr. Zvara, one of the objects would be to lessen the resistance of the
union to have this done, wouldn't it be ?
Mr. Dale. Not as far as I ever understood it, sir. He was paid
to get the job, and it was up to us to keep it going.
The Chairman. Let the Chair interrupt a moment. I was going
along thinking maybe we could get through with this witness, but
apparently we cannot get through before lunch. I had indulged the
interrogation, thinking apparently we would get through. However,
I do not think we will.
Is there much more ?
Mr. Manuel. Not too much more. I think we can move the ex-
hibits along rather speedily.
The Chairman. Well, if we cannot get through, I would like to
take a recess at this time until 2 :15.
Is there any objection ?
Senator Kennedy. Let me ask one question, if I may, in case I am
not here.
Was any other payment to any other union made by this company ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. "WHiat other unions ?
Mr. Dale. The International Association of Machinists.
Senator Kennedy. Is that the only other one ?
Mr. Dale. In the days when Mr. Elliott was in charge, there were
several other payments or gifts made to other unions, but I don't
think they were more extensive.
Senator Kjennedy. Do you know who was involved in the Machinist
case?
Mr. Dale. The names of the individuals ?
Senator Kennedy. Yes, or their titles.
Mr. Dale. A grand lodge representative by the name of Edward
Swannie.
Senator Kennedy. Do you know approximately how much was
paid to him by the company or companies involved, or by the Elliott
Co., excuse me ?
Mr. Dale. From the time that I took over, I believe it was around
$6,000.
19930 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Kennedy. But you don't know how much previous to
that. Do you know what he is doing now? Has any action been
taken against him by anyone ?
Mr. Dale. He resigned from the union sometime around January
or February.
Senator Kennedy. Did you ever inform anyone in the union that
he was engaged in this practice ?
Mr. Dale. The union asked me.
Senator Kennedy. Whether he had been?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Who asked you ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Hayes, the president of the union.
Senator Kennedy. What did he do ; call you and ask you ?
Mr. Dale. He called me and asked me if any commissions had been
paid to any members of the lAM.
Senator Ivennedy. You told him that there had been ?
Mr. Dale. No ; I told him at that time that there had not been.
Senator Kennedy. Wliy ?
Mr. Dale. Because the commission payments to Swannie had
stopped long since, and I thought it was a dead issue and would not
do Swannie or the miion any good to reopen the question.
Senator Kennedy. Then what happened ? Did Mr. Hayes find out
that there had been payments to Swannie?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Hayes apparently knew it when he called me.
Senator Kennedy. What did he say then when you told him that
there were not ?
Mr. Dale. I never heard from him again.
Senator Kennedy. Did you drop the matter?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Was disciplinary action taken against Swannie?
Mr. Dale. He had resigned.
Senator Kennedy. That was the end of it ?
Mr. Dale. It was as a result.
Senator Kennedy. Why did you gather that Hayes knew a/bout it?
Mr. Dale. I assumed later that when I heard from the district at-
torney of New York within a matter of days following that, that Mr.
Hayes knew that it was in other hands, there wasn't any need for
him to talk about it anymore.
Senator Kennedy. Why did he call you and ask you if he already
knew about it?
Mr. Dale. I think he wanted the confirmation of it.
Senator Church. Wliy didn't you tell him the truth?
Mr. Dale. Because I thought it was a dead issue. I had stopped
the payments to Swannie.
Senator Church. You thought as a matter of convenience you
would just not tell him the truth?
Mr. Dale. No; I thought as a dead issue it wouldn't do anybody
any good, either the union or Swannie.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2:15.
(Members of the select committee present at the taking of the re-
cess were Senators McClellan, Kennedy, Ervin, Church, Curtis, and
Capehart.)
("Wliereupon, at 1 p.m., the select committee recessed, to reconvene in
executive session at 2:15 p.m. the same day.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19931
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The select committee reconvened at 2:15 p.m.. Senator John L.
McClellan, chairman of the select committee, presiding.)
The Chaieman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at time of convening : Sen-
ators McClellan, Kennedy, Goldwater, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. We will proceed with Mr. Dale.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN D. DALE— Resumed
Mr. Manuel. I will give you what purports to be two checks, one
dated August 14 and another about the same date, in 1956, one from
George Elliott to Charles Hardy Co. in the amount of $8,250 and an-
other of the same date, from Charles Hardy to Pete Zvara in the
amount of $7,769.65, and ask you if you can identify those.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Dale. Do you wish me to repeat the details as I did before ?
Mr. Manuel. Do you recognize those two checks as one payment
from Elliott to the Hardy Co., and then a check on Hardy's bank ac-
count to Zvara ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. That was another one of the concealed payments ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was the check to Zvara endorsed by Zvara ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir ; it is.
The Chairman. Those checks may be made exhibits Nos. 4-A
and 4-B.
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 4r-A and 4-B" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20388-20389.)
Mr. Manuel. I hand you another check dated October 16, 1956,
payable to the Hardy Co., in the amount of $3,166.21, and another
check dated November 14, 1956, in the amount of $5,000 payable to
Pete Zvara fi-om Charles Hardy Co., Inc., and ask you to identify those
checks.
Could you tell us what thy are ?
The Chairman. You may examine them.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Dale. Yes ; the first is the check from Elliott to Hardy, and the
second is the check from Hardy to Peter Zvara, and the second check
is endorsed by Peter Zvara.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits Nos. 5-A and 5-B.
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 5-A and 5-B" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20390-20391.)
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Dale, I hand you another check payable to Charles
Hardy Co., in the amount of $4,700, from the George Elliott Co., and
another check dated February 8, 1957, payable to Pete Zvara, in the
amount of $4,700.50 from Charles Hardy, and ask you to identify
those.
The Chairman. They may be examined.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Dale. The first check is from Elliott to Hardy, the second check
Hardy to Peter Zvara, endorsed by Peter Zvara.
19932 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. IVIanuel. They represent the same sort of payments to Mr.
Zvara?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits Nos. 6-A and 6-B.
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 6-A and 6-B" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20392-20393.)
Mr. jVL\nuel. I will give you another pair of checks, one from Elliott
to Charles Hardy in the amount of $3,400, dated April 25, 1957, and
another check of the same date, payable to Mr. Zvara, from Charles
Hardy Co.
Will you identify those, please ?
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
(At this point Senator Church entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Dale. Also George Elliott's check to Hardy and Hardy's check
to Peter Zvara, endorsed by Peter Zvara, commissions paid.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits Nos T-A and 7-B,
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 7-A and 7-B" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20391—20395.)
Mr. Manuel. This is a check dated June 10, 1957, in the amount of
$2,900, payable to Charles Hardy Co. from George Elliott, and another
check attached thereto dated June 10, 1957, from Charles Hardy to
Peter Zvara.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. IVIanuel. Will you identify those, please ?
Mr. Dale. The check from Hardy to Peter Zvara, and the other
check, endorsed by Peter Zvara, commissions paid.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits Nos. 8-A and 8-B.
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 8-A and 2-B" for
refei'ence and will be fomid in the aj^pendix on pp. 20396-20397.)
Mr. IVIanuel. Another pair of checks, one dated September 10, 1957,
payable to the Hardy Co., from Elliott, and another check of the same
date, from Charles Hardy Co. to Peter Zvara.
Identify those, please, and describe what they are.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Dale. This is a check from Elliott to Hardy, and then from
Hardy to Peter Zvara, endorsed by Peter Zvara, commissions paid.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits Nos. 9-A and 9-B.
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 9-A and 9-B" for
reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20398-20399.)
Mr. Manuel. Now, shortly thereafter, that is on the last day of the
checks, did Charles Hardy Co. become a little apprehensive about
handling these payments to Zvara ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, Mr. Mulligan refused to sign any more checks, and
said he didn't want to do it any more, and my brother said he would
just as soon not do it, too, if Mr. Mulligan objected so strongly.
Mr. Manuel. How did you make the payments to Zvara, if any,
after that change of heart on the part of the Hardy company ?
Mr. Dale. I made them through another corporation, called Duri-
sol, D-u-r-i-s-o-1, Inc.
Mr. IVIanuel. Is that a New York corporation ?
Mr. Dale. A New York corporation.
Mr. Manuel. Was it dormant at the time ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19933
Mr. IVIanuel. Did you own controlling interest in it ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir ; that is, my wife and I together did.
Mr. Manuel. Were you an officer in it ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. IVIanuel. Wliat office did you hold ?
Mr. Dale. President and treasurer.
Mr. JVIanuel. I will give you another pair of checks, one purporting
to be a clieck dated January 21, 1958, in the amount of $3,500, payable
to Durisol, Inc., from George Elliott, and another dated January 22,
1958, payable to Peter Zvara, from John H. Dale, treasurer of Duri-
sol, Inc.
Will you describe those, please ?
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Dale. A check from Elliott to Durisol, Inc., and a check from
Durisol, Inc., to Peter Zvara, endorsed by Peter Zvara, commissions
paid.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits Nos. 10-A and 10-B.
(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 10-A and
10-B" for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20400-
20101.)
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Dale, I will give you what purports to be three
checks attached together, one check from Elliott to Durisol in the
amount of $1,870.37 dated March 31, 1958, and another check of the
same date, from Elliott to Durisol for $1,900; attached thereto an-
other check dated April 3, 1958, from Durisol to Peter Zvara, in the
amount of $2,870.37.
Will you examine those and describe them ?
( The documents were handed to the witness. )
Mr. Dale. The check from Elliott to Durisol, check from Elliott
to Durisol, and check from Durisol to Peter Zvara, and endorsed by
Peter Zvara, commissions paid.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits 11-A, 11-B, and 11-C.
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 11-A, 11-B, and
11-C for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20402-
20404.)
Mr. Manuel. I will hand you another pair of checks, or what pur-
port to be cliecks, one from George Elliott to Durisol, in the amount
of $685.33, dated July 29, 1958, and another check dated July 29,
1958, payable to Peter Zvara, in the amount of $620.68, drawn on the
account of Monmouth County National Bank, and the drawer is
Durisol, Inc.
Will you identify those, and describe them ?
( The documents were handed to the witness. )
Mr. Dale. The check of Elliott to Durisol, and check of Durisol
to Peter Zvara, endorsed by Peter Zvara, and these were commissions
paid. I believe this was the check where Mr. Zvara said that lie had
some travel expense, and wanted to have that shown as a reimburse-
ment of some travel expense that he had had over the past few
months, but it was part of the commission account.
Mr. Manuel. It was commission, or represents commission ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, and I did not ask for any travel vouchers, which is
customary when you reimburse travel expense.
Mr. Manuel. Was there any significance to your not asking for
vouchers ?
19934 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Dale. No, because this would have been considered as a part
of the overall commission account.
The Chairman. Those may be made exhibits 12-A and 12-B.
(Checks referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 12-A and 12-B"
for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20405-20406.)
Senator Kennedy. May I ask how many more checks there are ?
Mr. Manuel. Two more, Senator.
Mr. Dale, I have two checks and they were obviously written before
you were there, and they are 1954, but I give them to you to see if you
can identify them.
I have one dated October 31, 1954, to Peter Zvara from George
Elliott. Will you examine that and see if you can identify it?
( The document was handed to the witness. )
Mr. Dale. A check of George H. Elliott & Co., the partnership, to
Peter Zvara, signed by George H. Elliott, and endorsed by Peter
Zvara.
Mr. Manuel. Do they represent commissions, or do you know?
Mr. Dale. I do not know.
Mr. Manuel. All right. I will hand you another.
The Chairman. That check may be made exhibit No. 13. Did you
identify it ?
Mr. Dale. I identified the origin and the signatures on it, but I
do not know what it was for.
Senator Church. For what purpose is it being offered?
Mr. IVIanuel. I have just asked him if he could identify it.
Senator Church. He said he couldn't.
Mr. Manuel. The only significance is to establish that it is en-
dorsed by Mr. Zvara, and from the Elliott Co., and I plan to ask
about it later.
Senator Church. I see.
Mr. Manuel. I am just establishing the authenticity of it.
The Chairman. It will be made exhibit No. 13.
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 13" for reference
and will be found in the appendix on p. 20407.)
Mr. Manuel. I have one more dated November 15 from Elliott to
Peter Zvara, in the amount of $1,059.37.
Now I will ask you if you can identify that one.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Dale. Again the check of the George H. Elliott Co. partner-
ship, signed by Mr. George Elliott, payable to Peter Zvara, and
endorsed by Peter Zvara, and I have no knowledge of what that check
was for.
Mr. Manuel. But you do recognize that as Mr. Zvara's signature
on the back ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
^ Mr. Manuel. Mr. Dale, do you know the total amount of commis-
sions that were paid to Mr. Zvara from George Elliott Co. ?
The Chairman. That check may be made exhibit No. 14.
(Check referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 14" for reference
and will be found in the appendix on p. 20408.)
Mr. Dale. The total amount dating back to 1950, 1 understand from
the tape drawn by the district attorney, ran to approximately $63,000.
Mr. Manuel. Were they based on the records of the George Elliott
Co., the tape, adding up all of the payments ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19935
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Now, do you kiiow Mr. Ernest H. Love?
Mr. Dale. I never met him, and I have had no relations with him
at all personally.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know whether or not your company also paid
Mr. Love any commissions on the same type of jobs ?
Mr. Dale. According to the record, some payments were made.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know how much ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know when ?
Mr, Dale. They were prior to December 31, 1955, and no further
payments were made thereafter.
Mr. Manuel. When was the company formed ?
Mr. Dale. The corporation ?
Mr. Manuel. No ; the partnership.
Mr. Dale. The original partnership, I believe, goes back to 1947,
and another partnership in 1950, if I am not sure of that date.
Mr. Manuel. Now, I think in response to certain questions you
have described in general the services you performed on the types of
agreements you make with these employers, and it is to do time
promotion studies and such things, is it, increased efficiency and cut
down on overhead ?
Mr. Dale. That is correct. Our job is primarily an engineer's de-
termination of the time that it should take to perform a piece of
work, employee by employee. We deal in time, and we don't deal
in money at all.
Mr. Manuel. Now, how is it that you happened to be paying these
commissions to such people as Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Elliott told me that it was necessary to agree to
pay the commission to Mr. Zvara, to be assured of getting the engage-
ment of the Electric Auto-Lite Co., and other business.
Mr. JManuel. Does the union have a veto power over the selection
of the industrial relations firm, which gets the contract?
Mr. Dale. As a rule, "veto" may be a little too strong a word. They
are ordinarily asked to agree to consent to the use of a certain firni.
The firm usually is select^ by the company, and again ordinarily, if
the union refuses to accept or consent to the selection of the company's
firm, then the company rarely ever tries to force it.
Mr. IVLvNUEL. Would the company which has one of these contracts
to let out, would it quite often submit more than one name?
Mr. Dale. Oh, yes, as a rule three.
Mr. Manuel. And then would the union have the election or the
power to designate the one who gets the contract ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. You know that firsthand, do you?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Now, exactly where would Mr. Zvara come into the
picture ? What did he do for you ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Elliott told me that Mr. Zvara told him that if he
wanted to get the assignment to do the work for Electric Auto-Lite
Co., he would have to agree to pay a 15 percent commission on the
engineering service charges.
Mr. Manuel. Is that 15 percent of the net billing ?
19936 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Dale. Of the net billing.
Mr. Manuel. That was Electric Auto-Lite ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Ai?fo-L^r^^' ^^'^' ^^'^^ ^'^ ^^''' ^""^^^'^ position in regard to
A ¥^'t"?/^- ^^- ^^'^^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^i^^ot connection with the Electric
Auto-L(ite Co.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, he was not instrumental in helping
to negotiate the collective bargaining agreements ^
T. ^''•iPt'^f'i^ was told by both Mr. Elliott and Mr. Zvara that he
had absolutely nothing to do with the negotiation of any contracts.
His sole ]ob m the union, as an official of the union, was cognizance
over the Doehler Jarvis Council.
Mr Manuel. He was codirector of the Doehler Jarvis Council;
Mr. Dale. I believe that was his title.
Mr. Manuel. And the Doehler Jarvis Council would be composed
there?' ^^®^^' ^^"^ ^^^ ^^""^ president, under his jurisdiction out
Mr. Dale. I have no first-hand knowledge of that, and I do not
know if Mr. Gosser had anything directly to do with it
Mr IVIanuel. Did you know that Mr. Zvara was codirector of the
Doehler Jarvis Council ?
Dr. Dale I have heard that title used, but I do not know it. I
thought his letterhead showed "Eegional Director UAW "
Mr Manuel. What did Mr. Zvara have to do with Willvs-
Overland ? -^
Mr. Dale. I have no knowledge of that, and I don't think he had
anything directly to do with it.
Mr. Manuel. How about Jerry Machine Co., of Michigan «
Mr. Dale. I don't know at all in that case.
Senator Curtis But did some of these payments have reference
to the Willys-Overland, and Jerry Machine Co. ?
Mr. Dale. Sir, I would have to check the record. All of those
transactions took place when the partnership was running the business
and 1 never examined the records of the partnership until late last
year, or early this year, with the exception of U.S. Naw account,
where we performed a large project for the Navy.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Zvara at any time ever come to you and ask
you for some evidence of the net billing, or not just a check, but some
underlying data or memo ?
Mr. Dale. Yes. It was either at the time of the second or third
payment, he asked me if I would ^ive him a little slip showing the
billing and the amount of commission accrued, and the amount paid
and the amount still due, as of given cutoff dates.
Mr. Manuel. Did he state why he wanted that ?
Mr. Dale Yes; I asked him why he wanted it, and he said he had
to have the figures to show to the other boys,
Mr. Manuel. Was that plural, "bovs" «
Mr. Dale. Plural.
Mr. Manuel. Did he elaborate on what he meant by "boys" ?
Mr. Dale. No; I asked him again, who, and he refused to tell me,
and I never brought the subject up again.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19937
The Chairman. Did that imply to you that he was dividing that
fund, or that conmiission with someone else ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir ; that was the implication.
The Chairman. That was the implication that you got from it ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When did this occur?
Mr. Dale. I believe it was around July of 1956. It was not at the
time of the first payment, but either the second or the third.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know w^hether or not he gave any part of these
proceeds to Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Dale. I do not.
Mr. JVIanuel. Did you ever talk to Mr. Gosser about it ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Were you with the Elliott Co. in December of 1955 ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you recall that sometime in 1956 a little trouble
developed down in Auto-Lite, in comiection with the servicing of that
company ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Do you recall it was involved with grievances filed,
or some unrest in the plant or opposition to the Elliott Co. doing this
work ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, the grievances were a byproduct, as I recall the
record, a byproduct of an insurgent committee that was trying to get
itself elected.
Mr. Manuel. Was that headed by Stucker, a man named Stucker?
Mr. Dale. The insurgents were headed by Stucker, and the incum-
bents by Mr. DuPont, I think it was.
Mr. Manuel. Was it DuPont ?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Did you check with Mr. Zvara on this trouble ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, I asked him what was this all about.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat did he say ?
Mr. Dale. He told me that it was nothing more than a bunch of
hotheads trying to get in, and in order to get in they couldn't be for
something, they had to be against something.
Mr. Manuel. Did he say anything that he did in connection with
that?
Mr. Dale. No. I asked him forinfonnation on it, and was there
anything that we could do, and he said, "I don't know. I can't find out
anything about it."
Mr. Manuel. Did he make further inquiry himself ?
Mr. Dale. He said that he did.
Mr. Manuel. Did he say anything about taking that up with Mr.
Gosser, that trouble ?
Mr. Dale. No. I don't believe that he said it. I rather believe that
if there was anything that he could do about it, because after all his
interest was as long as the job continued he would get commissions,
and it was strictly up to him if there was anything that could be done.
However, to be realistic about it, I don't think that the international
ever has any direct influence on an insurgent committee's political
activities to become elected, or to be elected.
19938 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
^ Mr. lyiAXUEL. You testified fully before the gi-and jury, did you
Mr. Dale. Yes, I did.
in Detroit, the international UAW° situation of the international union
a sisrtha??e a?A^^o?:,s^t?el'^^ttJy7nytf„r tr.tr''V''7"^^^^
against the company in order tTget rid of the e "^"ft^^^ - ? '
ZS'^ar' ^"'-""^ ^^' °"' "' thl'L1fra^?ioieS&-,raZ1
unSfSwh^i'^rnXTpSMcanW''' '™ '""" "•'°"' "^ °'^''"'' °' "« ^™
Answer. I understood whom he meant
Question. Who was that?
th^STw? ™'" ""' "''■ *"^' °""' ■"" "'^"O'atos at the international level of
Mr. Manuel. Does thcat refresh your memorv «
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir ; it does. "
Mr. Manuel^ Those were truthful answers, were they ?
Mr Uale Yes. But as to the time the grievances started or the
time the strike was called and Stucker was elected, tlSre were several
conversations m the nature of "find out what goes on "
room.) ^'''''^ Senators Mundt and Ervin entered the hearing
Mr. Manuel. Let me read some more :
nii?trralTll/i^l^e^durU?rS™ ""' °=^^^'°" °' '^^^ "=^ '»- ™-
the local committee. "^^'''"^ ^^" '' ^""^ '^" consequences lay squarely with
Doyou recall that?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. That is true?
Mr. Dale. Yes ; that is true.
Mr. Manuel. I will refresh your memory a little more :
get^from Goss^er^? ^'''' ^^^" ^^''"'' ^^^^ ^^^"^ ^"^ ^^'^^^ business you might
Answer. Yes. I told Zvara that we had never done very much business in
?wm,id i-u '^^ ^^^'°^t ^"^^' ^^^^ ^^' «^ t^^ industrial enJineSrng nature anS
I would hke very much to get some leads up there as to where it was n^e^a?v
for companies to do this type of work, and Zvara said that he woiSdsS
to Gosser and find out if there were any such places. ^
Do you recall that?
r^^Lr.'^^^^i L^""?! ^o^gotten whether he said he would speak to
(rosser, or whether that was the implication.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19939
Mr. Manuel (reading) :
Question. Did Zvara indicate to you at any time that he would talk to Gosser
and help straighten out that trouble with the union?
Answer. That was implicit, specifically.
Was that true?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel (reading) :
Question. I don't mean directly, but did he give any indication that you can
recall that he would get in touch with Gosser to help straighten out the situation
with the union?
Answer. Yes, he said, "I know Gosser very well, and I can find out for you
just what the situation is, and what can be done about it."
Is that true?
Mr. Dale. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Do you understand that the international, obviously
through Mr. Gosser had sent the boys in the local back to Toledo with
their tails between their legs? Do you know what that meant?
Mr. Dale. It is a slang expression for putting the entire responsi-
bility on them if any strike was called, and to refuse to give the backing
of the international union to any local strike.
Mr. Manuel. In other words, put down the local opposition to it so
you could complete the contract ?
Mr. Dale. To get the work completed, because inherent and behind
all this was the fundamental agreement between the UAW at Mr.
Gosser's level, and the Electric Auto-Lite Co., in which we had no
part, where the program undertaken jointly by them was dedicated
to maintain the employment of some 4,000 people in Toledo.
Mr. Manuel. Then is it true that the services performed by Zvara
in exchange for his commission are these : The union has a veto power
over the contract and he could designate your company as the firm to
get the contract, we will say, with Auto-Lite ?
Mr. Dale. Not Zvara.
Mr. Manuel. Someone else?
Mr. Dale. It must have been some else.
Mr. Manuel. You don't think Zvara was authorized to do that
on his own ?
Mr. Dale. No.
Mr. Manuel. Who do you think was authorized ?
Mr. Dale. It was probably either the head of the local union, who
at that time was Mr. DuPont, or it was Mr. Gosser, or both.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know which one?
Mr. Dale. I do not.
Mr. Manuel. Then after the contract was entered into, the further
service was to insure industrial peace throughout the agreement so
you could complete it on time and with a minimum of opposition;
is that right ?
(At this point Senator Ca])ehart withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Dale. Well, that would be implicit in the company undertaking
the project at all with Mr. Gosser.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever talk to Mr. Gosser?
Mr. Dale. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever try to see him ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
36751— 60— pt. 58 3
19940 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Manuel, In what connection ?
Mr. Dale. I wrote him at the conclusion of the job, and I told him
in substance that in spite of the extraordinary difficulties that every-
one had gone through on that job, I thought that from beginning to
end there was a demonstration of statesmanship on the part of the
union and that some day I would like to meet him.
Mr. Manuel. Did you?
Mr. Dale. No ; I did not.
Senator Curtis. Did you get a reply ?
Mr. Dale. No reply.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever ask Mr. Zvara if he was giving any of
that money to Gosser ?
Mr. Dale. Not specifically.
Mr. Manuel. Implicitly ?
Mr. Dale. I asked him who was getting it and he refused to tell me.
Mr. Manuel. That is all.
Senator I^nnedy. When you say you didn't implicitly, what do
you mean by that? Did he say he was giving it to someone but
wouldn't tell you who it was ?
Mr. Dale. Wlien I asked him why he wanted the slip of paper with
the figures on it as to how the commission was calculated, he said.
"I have to show it to the other boys. The other boys want to see it.'-
Senator Kennedy. You didn't know who the other boys were?
Mr. Dale. No. I asked him then and he wouldn't tell me.
Senator Kennedy. So that you have no idea other than what you
may surmise, yourself; you have no external evidence as to who the
people might be ?
Mr. Dale. None whatever.
Senator Kennedy. When you wrote Mr. Gosser with regard to his
statesmanship, were you under the impression that he had received
money ?
Mr. Dale. No, sir.
The Chairman. Let me ask you : Did you ask him the question if
Gosser was getting part of it ?
Mr. Dale. I didn't ask him.
The Chairman. You didn't ask him specifically ; that is what you
meant ?
Mr. Dale. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. But you asked generally who might be getting it ?
Mr. Dale. Who are the "boys."
The Chairman. Wlio are the boys that were getting the money?
Mr. Dale. Right.
Senator Kennedy. He said, "I am not going to tell you."
Mr. Dale. He smiled and shook his head. I don't think at the time
he opened his mouth and said, "I don't believe I am going to tell you."
Mr. Manuel. Let me ask you : Do you believe that Mr. Zvara kept
all of this money by himself ?
The Chairman. I don't think your belief would be controlling, but
you can state whether you have an opinion, I suppose.
Mr. Dale. I have no knowledge of whether he did in fact pass it on,
whether he was kidding me about other boys or whether he was truth-
ful about other boys. I have absolutely no knowledge or information
on anybody to whom he may have given it.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19941
Senator Church. You said you had no knowledge as to whether or
not Gosser got this money. Do you have any knowledge as to whether
or not Gosser, in fact, intervened at this company to arrange things so
that you could complete your contract ?
Mr. Dale. Mr. Gosser, all through the course of our assignment
with Electric Auto-Lite, and prior to it w ith the company, and pre-
sumably afterward, all that time he had made some kind of an agree-
ment to help save that company for Toledo, and acting within the
framework of that decision I believe that there must have been more
or less continuous contact between Mr. Gosser and the executives.
Senator Church. Did you or your company have any direct con-
tact or dealings with Mr. Gosser in connection with the commission
that was paid or in connection with the services that were to be
rendered ? I want to know^ the basis upon which you say — you said in
your testimony that you had never seen Gosser in your life.
]\lr. Dale. That is right.
Senator Church. And you had not contacted him, you had not had
any exchanges with him. I just want to know what basis there is, if
any, to say that Gosser was connected with this arrangement.
Mr. Dale. Mr. Elliott told me at the time he disclosed the obliga-
tion to pay this commission that Mr. Gosser and the president of
Auto-Lite had reached a basic agi^eement to save those plants, to
save the employment, and that
Senator Church. That is one thing. But when you say that Mr.
Gosser and the president of Auto-Lite had reached an agreement to
save the plants, Mr. Gosser, as the UAW official for the workers at
the plant, w^ould have every legitimate reason to want to save the plant
and save the employment in any dealings that he might have with the
employer.
That is one thing. But this transaction between your service com-
pany and Mr. Zvara, wdiereby you remitted to him a 15 percent cut
for having presumably procured for you the business, that is another
transaction.
What I want to know is what knowledge do you have of facts that
you can put before this committee that would connect Gosser with
the latter transaction?
Mr. Dale. Only — I do no know of any way that he can be con-
nected, myself, because I came into this scene after the agreements,
if any, involving Mr. Gosser were made by Mr. Elliott, and I do not
even know if Mr. Elliott personally knew Mr. Gosser.
Mr. Manuel. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman.
Do you know^ where Mr. Elliott is now ?
Mr. Dale. I believe he is in Canada.
Mr. Manuel. He has been for some time ?
Mr. Dale. Yes. He is president of the Ontario Portland Cement
Co.
Senator Church. I have one other question, Mr. Chairman.
When you made these commission payments through the Hardy
Co. or through the Durisol Co. to Mr. Zvara, how did you carry them
on the books of the Elliott Co. ?
Mr. Dale. Sales commissions.
Senator Church. Just as sales commissions, presumably to Durosil
or to Hardy as the case might be ?
19942 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Dale. Yes. That was the transaction as presented to me by
Mr. Elliott, and I simply continued what he had started doing; by
definition, that is.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I think that is all we have over
here to inquire of Mr. Dale about. I would say as one Senator, I
appreciate his appearance here today. Unless there is something else,
we are ready for the next witness.
The Chairman. Do you know what happened to Mr. Zvara with
respect to his union connections after these facts were disclosed before
the grand jury?
Mr. Dale. Before what, sir ?
The Chairman. Were these facts disclosed before the grand jury
that you testified to here ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When ? What date ? Just approximately.
Mr. Dale. Either late February or early March.
Senator Curtis. Of this year?
Mr. Dale. Of this year.
The Chairman. Do you know what happened to Mr. Zvara after
that with respect to his union connections ?
Mr. Dale. I understand he was dismissed from the union.
The Chairman. As soon as this information that you have given
came to light ?
Mr. Dale. One of the assistant district attorney's told me that.
The Chairman. I mean it was after this came to light, after you
had testified before the grand jury ?
Mr. Dale. I think that he was dismissed actually a short time prior
to it. But it was after the information became known. It was in
the Toledo newspapers.
The Chairman. As soon as it was known what you have disclosed
here. You disclosed, I assume, substantially the same information
to the grand jury as you have disclosed here. Is that correct ?
Mr. Dale. That is correct. Actually, I read it in the Toledo
paper.
The Chairman. That he had been promptly dealt with by the
union?
Mr. Dale. That is right.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
If not, you may stand aside for the present.
Call the next witness.
Does anyone want this witness any further for these hearings?
So far as I know, you may be excused from further attendance,
except I will keep you under subpena subject to being recalled at such
time and place as the committee may desire to hear further testimony
from you. Will you acknowledge that recognizance ?
Mr. Dale. I do, sir.
The Chairman. And you will appear upon notice without being
resubpenaed ?
Mr. Dale. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You may stand aside.
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, we have been trying to get hold
of Mr. Vernon Johnson to see if he could appear today. A wire was
sent out subpenaing him, asking him to be here at 10 :30 this morn-
ing. He has not shown up.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19943
We have a message that he is expected to be back in about 2^/^
hours, at which time we will place the call again.
The Chairman. Was he subpenaed ?
Mr. Kennedy. He was contacted on the telephone and told he had
to be in here. At that time he said he was employed through Senator
Mundt's office, and that in view of that fact, that he was employed
through Senator Mundt's office, Mr. O'Donnell rightfully felt that it
wasn't necessary to subpena him, because he said he would come here.
So he agreed to come. The telegram was sent over your name, con-
firming the telephone conversation for him to be here this morning,
and he did not show up.
Senator Goldwater, Was he subpenaed?
Mr. Kennedy. No, because he said he was associated with Senator
Mundt. I didn't feel it was necessary.
Senator Mundt. He said that he was working for me ?
Mr. Kennedy. He said his finances were made through your office,
that is where he was receiving his money. He refused to say exactly
where the money was coming from, but he said all the arrangements
were made through your office. That is why he was not subpenaed,
because it was felt that because of that association, he would come
when he said he would.
The Chairman. When you reach him by telephone, tell him the
Chair directed that he be here and to come promptly. If he doesn't
come, serve a subpena on him. We will go through that trouble after
notifying him.
Mr. Kennedy. There was this telegram from you, Senator, notify-
ing him to be here.
The Chairman. I understand. But I want to be sure that if he
forces us to do it, we will subpena him. Here is the wire :
Re your telegram of August 7, 2:45 p.m. last, circumstances have arisen
whereby I am unable to be at room 3302, Senate Office Building, Washington, on
instant date. Senator Goldwater has been advised.
Is he refusing to come ?
Senator Goldwater. When I got back to my office today, there
was a message there that both of his children are sick. That is the
extent of my knowledge.
The Chairman. Get him on the line and let me talk to him.
Proceed.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Peter Zvara.
The Chairman. Be sworn, please.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Zvara. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PETER ZVARA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
MARCUS L. FRIEDMAN
The Chairman. All right. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Would you state your name, please ?
Mr. Zvara. My name is Peter Zvara.
Senator Curtis. Wliere do you live ?
19944 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. ZvARA. 6808 Rosewood Place, Sylvania, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. Do you have counsel with you ?
Mr. ZvARA. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Counsel, will you identify yourself ?
Mr. Friedman. My name is Marcus L. Friedman. I practice law in
the city of Toledo, Lucas County, Ohio, 301 Huron Building.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Zvara, what is your present work or occupa-
tion?
Mr. Friedman. May I make a statement at this time ?
The Chairman. You may.
Mr. Friedman. I would like to say to the members of the Senate
sitting here that I have advised my client not to testify', based on the
fact that there is a possible indictment against him in the State of
New York. There was a grand jury proceeding that had been dis-
missed with no indictment presentment made, but on June 22 there
appeared in our local newspaper, the Toledo Blade, a statement made
out of Mr. Hogan's office. If I may, I would like to quote.
The March session of the grand jury which heard Mr. Gosser has been dis-
charged with no action talven against Mr. Zvara. However, a spoliesman for
Mr. Hogan said today the case has not been closed.
In view of this, we have a right to assume that this matter is now
pending for investigation before the New York grand jury and the
case could be reopened. Based on that, I have advised my client not to
answer any questions.
The Chairman. Unless he is under indictment or actually under
arrest, awaiting the grand jury action on a specific charge, the Chair
will not sustain that objection to his testifying.
As I understand it, the grand jury in this instance has already
examined and returned no indictment.
Mr. Friedman. He did not appear before the grand jury.
The Chairman. I said they had examined into this matter in which
he was involved. He was one of the parties being investigated by the
grand jury, as I understand it.
Mr. Friedman. That is correct.
The Chairman. He was not indicted ?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Subsequently, the district attorney has said that
that did not necessarily close the case ?
Mr. Friedman. That is correct.
The Chairman. In other words, he might reopen it, and he might
not. There is still some investigation perhaps in progress?
Mr. Friedman. That is correct.
The Chairman. I don't think that is sufficient to sustain the ob-
jection to his testifying. Where one has been indicted, where one
is under indictment, with an indictment actually pending, we have not
required him to testify. But where they come in and say, "We are
under investigation," we have not honored that request that they not
be required to answer questions.
Am I correct? Is there any objection to the Chair's position? I
think that is consistent with what we have done before.
The objection to his testifying will be overruled.
Proceed, Senator Curtis.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 19945
Senator Curtis. What is your work or occupation ?
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Curtis, Do you feel that to truthfully tell this committee
what your work or occupation is would cause you to be a witness
against yourself ?
Mr. ZvARA. Well, Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege imder the
U.S. Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Are you still on the payroll of the UAW, the inter-
national, any region, any local, or any constituent imit whatever
directly or indirectly ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Are you drawing pay now from anyone ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Zvara, did you resign your membership from
the UAW?
Mr. Zvara. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Were charges filed against you under article 30
of the UAW constitution ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Are you familiar with the constitution? Are you
familiar with the constitution of the International Union of UAW ?
Mr. Zvara. Mr, Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Was there a trial held by the executive board con-
cerning your case ?
Mr. Zvara, I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. I would like to call your attention to section 3
under article 30 of what purports to be the constitution of the inter-
national UAW, dated April 1957, which is as follows :
Upon charges being submitted, it is mandatory that a trial be held unless
the charges are withdrawn by the accuser.
Did you ever have any such trial ?
Mr. Zvara. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. How long have you lived in Ohio ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. How long have you known Richard Gosser?
Mr. Zvara, I invoke the privilege under the U.S, Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever hold any imion position, salaried
position, that in your work you were in contact with Mr, Gosser ?
Mr, Zvara, I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Mr, Zvara, it has been testified to here that you
received some $63,000 in commissions from the Elliott Co, Is that
true?
19946 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Did you share that money with anyone ?
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Dale also testified that in conversation with
you, you refeiTed to having to take something up with the boys, mean-
ing those who knew about your arrangement and were sharing it.
Who were "the boys" ?
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever make a contribution to the flower
fund?
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
(The witness confen*ed with his counsel.)
Senator Curtis. You do know Mr. Gosser, don't you ?
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Zvara, you did get the $63,000, didn't you ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, 1 invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. AVliat service did you render to the Elliott Co. for
this money ?
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. What other individuals, if anyone, assisted you in
rendering seiwice to the Elliott Co. that would justify them in paying
you $63,000 ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. I would like to say to the counsel, I do not want
you to divulge anything that you should not as lawyer for the witness,
but if you are privileged, I would like to know if you can tell me
whether or not Mr. Zvara resigned from his membership in the union
or whether or not a trial was held and he was discharged.
Mr. Friedman. If I understand you, Senator Curtis, you are asking
me to tell you what he did ; is that correct ?
Senator Curtis. If you will.
Mr. Friedman. I would personally have no objection to doing it,
but with this one exception in mind, that I may open the door which
would lead into questions which may turn over to the grand jui-y or
the investigators of the State of New York the information they so
desired, which may or may not reopen the case there.
If I may continue for a moment, I notice that Mr. Joe Rauh, I
think that is his name, passed out a pamphlet earlier this morning, as
to what the UAW did as far as Mr. Zvara is concerned. I read it very
hastily over somebody else's shoulder. I think that would probably
give the committee as much information as I possibly could, and
maybe slightly more.
Senator Curtis. I shall not press you, because I respect the attor-
ney-client relation. I didn't know but what maybe some other public
disclosure had been made that would let you be free to answer.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19947
Senator Mundt. I will say to counsel that while we respect your
right to protect your client in every way and preserve the client-lawyer
relationship, we are seeking something a little bit more valid in the
way of information rather than a pamphlet passed out in the hallway
by'Mr. Eauh.
' Senator Curtis. Will the Senator yield ? It was passed out in here.
Senator Mundt. Wlierever it was passed out.
Senator Curtis. I don't know. It was brought over here and handed
to me while I was in executive session.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman, if I might suggest to Senator
Curtis, the administrative letter that counsel refers to does state on
page 4 that Mr. Zvara had written a letter to Mr. Reuther, I presume,
Please consider this as my notice to you tliat I have, as of the date of this
letter, voluntarily terminated my membership in the Toledo Doehler Jarvis
Local 1058, UAW.
Further on down, about the fourth paragraph, it says that —
Since his voluntary termination of membershij) —
and so forth. It is quite obvious from the UAW standpoint that he
had voluntarily withdrawn. In view of the fact that he refused, as
I understand it, to appear before the grand jury, has the Senator any
evidence of the UAW or any of its officers or personnel having made
any suggestions or offers to Mr. Zvara to do this?
Senator Curtis. I do not know what the UAW has done. I am
trying to find out.
Senator Goldwater. Was he paid to resign? Is he receiving any
help, as many of the UAW men are doing in jail, Gunaca, for instance?
Is this man receiving pay while retiring ?
Senator Curtis. Are you receiving any pay now from the union?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Are any union sources sending you any union
funds, directly or indirectly ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege mider the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Mundt. Specifically to ask the question that Senator Gold-
water asked. Were you paid any financial compensation by the UAW
in order to bring about your letter of resignation ?
(At this point Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Zvara. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Mundt. Did you share any of this $63,000 commission with
Mr. Richard Gosser ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke tlie privilege mider the Constitution not to
be a witness against myself.
Senator Ervin. Since reference has been made to this document that
was evidently spread around here, and I was handed a copy as I
walked into the room, did you have a consultation with Mr. Walter
Reuther on April 7, in which you admitted that j^ou had received this
money from the Elliott Co. as an alleged commission for procuring
contracts for them ?
Mr. Zvara. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
19948 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ervix. Were you notified to appear before a trial commit-
tee set up by the UAW to stand trial on two charges, one that you had
received money from the Elliott Co. in violation of the ethical regula-
tions of the UAW, and also that you had refused a request from the
UAW to vokmtarily appear as a witness before this grand jury in-
vestigation in New York ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
(At this point Senator Gold water entered the hearing room.)
Senator Ervin. After receiving that notification to appear before
the trial committee for trial on those charges, did you write the presi-
dent of the UAW a letter in which you said that you would not appear,
and that you were resigning your membership in the UAW ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Can't you talk about these things without possible
self-incrimination ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Do you honestly believe that if you answered these
questions truthfully, a truthful answer might tend to incriminate
you?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution of the United States.
The Chairman. I can order you to answer that. I am giving you
the opportunity to make a record.
Do you want to say that you cannot answer that question, and I
will order you to answer it, whether you honestly believe that a truth-
fid answer might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Zvara. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman, I will leave it up to those of you conducting this
examination.
Senator Mundt. I suggest that you order him to do it, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. I said I could order him to do it.
Senator Mundt. I suggest you do that.
The Chairman. I suggest the proper question be asked.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Zvara, did you get any amount of money from
the George Elliott Co. ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege of the Constitution not to be a
witness against myself.
Mr. Manuel. If you got any, did you report it on your income tax
returns ?
Mr. Zvara. Mr. Chairaian, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
JSIr. Manuel. How can reporting money on your income tax returns
incriminate you ?
Mr. Zvara. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Did you ask Mr. Dale to prepare a memorandum
or some writing to indicate what the net billings were so that it would
show that the commissions were properly figured and that you needed
that to show to the rest of the boys ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19949
Mr. ZvARiV. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Zvara, at one time, I think your attorney will
confirm this, you had sent word to me that you would talk very freely,
and then sometime thereafter I got a telegram from your attorney
saying you would not.
I think your attorney will confirm that.
In the interim, were you in communication with Mr. Joseph Rauh ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege of the Constitu-
tion.
Mr. Manuel. Were vou told by Mr. Joseph Rauh to invoke the
fifth?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Mr. Manuel. Were you told by Mr. Gosser to invoke the fifth ?
Mr. ZvAiLv. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution.
Mr. Manltel. Were you told by Mr. Reuther to invoke the fifth ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege.
Mr. Manuel. Were you advised by anyone other than your own
attorney to take the fifth ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution.
Senator Kennedy. Have you any evidence that Mr. Rauh informed
this witness, or Mr. Reuther ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir. I am asking him.
Senator Kennedy. Is this witness going to take the fifth amend-
ment with regard to every question asked today ?
Mr. Friedman. The answer to that is yes, and based strictly on the
fact that there is a possible reopening in New York of a criminal mat-
ter in the State of New York, under Mr. Hogan.
Senator Kennedy. You are not going to take the fifth amendment.
Would 3^ou like to answer whether you, as an attorney, had any con-
versations with Mr. Reuther or Mr. Rauh, which would lead to in-
structing this witness to take the fifth amendment ?
Senator Mundt. If the lawyer is going to testify, Mr. Chairman,
I suggest he be sworn.
Mr. Friedman. As a lawyer I have a right to make a statement in
behalf of my client without being under oath, because I have my pro-
fessional word. Senator.
Senator Mundt. If you are going to answer questions, you should
be under oath.
The Chairman. If you want to have the witness under oath, we will
put him under oath.
Senator Mundt. If he is going to be a witness, that is one thing.
The Chairman. His answer will not be sworn testimony unless he
is under oath. Frequently the members of the committee ask counsel
something for guidance.
Senator Kennedy. Have you objection to being sworn ?
]VIi\ Friedman. None.
The Chairman. I would simply say that any question or answer like
that would not be testimony. It would just be conversational infor-
mation.
Mr. Friedman. A statement that I made of my own personal knowl-
edge.
19950 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. What I meant is that it would not be sworn testi-
mony. You might ask counsel something to get information for guid-
ance, but it wouldn't be evidence unless it is sworn to here.
Mr. Friedman. That is correct.
Senator Kennedy. The implication of the question by Mr. Manuel,
I think, is quite serious — that this witness, in a sense, after agreeing
to testify, was tampered with. We could use a stronger word. The
implication is that perhaps Mr. Rauh or perhaps Mr. Reuther got in
touch with this witness and got him to agree not to testify before this
committee.
I would like to know if there is any evidence behind that which
would lead that question to be asked, or is it searching for infor-
mation ?
Mr. JVIanuel. It is for information.
Senator Kennedy. In other words, you have no information ?
Mr. Manuel. I am asking for information only.
Senator Kennedy. This witness was asked in regard to Mr. Gosser.
If he is going to take the fifth amendment with regard to any ques-
tion, which I think is most unfortunate, because I think he would be
very valuable as a witness, I do not think we should draw any assump-
tions, then. If there is no information behind any of these questions —
for example, questions were asked with regard to whether he is still
being compensated by the UAW. Unless we know that information,
unless we have some information which would lead us to believe that
he shared the money with Mr. Gosser, unless we had information which
would lead us to believe that Mr. Rauh or Mr. Reuther talked to him,
merely because he takes the fifth amendment, we should not assume
that the question is based upon information.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Manuel. I draw no inference at all. Senator.
The Chairman. There was some testimony here that Mr. Zvara,
by implication, at least, said he had to show figures, and so forth, to
some of the other boys, implying, maybe, that he had to divide the
money with them. On that testimony a question might be asked
him if he did get the money and was it divided. That would not
be out of line.
Senator Church. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Church.
Senator Church. Although I agree with the statement that the
chairman just made, I want to concur in what the Senator from
Massachusetts just said in respect to the questions which are thus
far utterly without foundation.
The Chahiman. These questions are purely fishing questions, to find
out if this witness will
Senator Church. When you ask questions like "Did Mr. Reuther
contact you or make some arrangement with you that induced you not
to testify after you said you would testify?" and then that is followed
with the invocation of the fifth amendment, the written record for any-
one that peruses it leaves an implication that this witness was reluctant
to say "No," and invoked the fifth amendment.
If there is any basis at all for believing that Mr. Reuther or Mr.
Rauh or any other high official of the UAW did in fact move in to
silence this witness, then I would have no objection whatever to put-
ting these questions, followed by the fifth amendment.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19951
But for just an unwarranted fishing expedition that intiy not be
calculated but which would nonetheless leave such an impression on the
written record, I think it has some effect. I concur in what the Sen-
ator from Massachusetts said.
I also would like to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that inasmuch as
certain portions from these two documents which purport to be the
explanation given by the UAW as to what action it took against this
witness have been extracted and read into the record, and the attor-
ney for this witness has had occasion to refer to these documents
heretofore, that the text of both documents, the full text, should ap-
propriately be included in the record.
The Chairman. I would not include the document in the record,
I don't think that should be done, but it could be made an exhibit for
reference.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, in that connection, if that is done,
may we have the understanding that if this document that the at-
torney said Mr. Rauh was handing out in the corridor, and somebody
came in here, but it is not sworn to, if it becomes an exhibit, then I
want to ask at a later time to have the man who signed this, Mr.
Walter P. Reuther, here, and sworn under oath that he may be cross-
examined about it.
Senator Ervix. I would suggest you do that rather than put this
into the record.
The Chairman. If you start spreading things into the record with-
out being sworn to, you will have a cluttered-up record.
Senator Cvhth^. 1 liave i^o objection, if he is here for examination.
Senator Church wants this in, and I have a right to cross-examhie.
Senator Church. The point is that inasmuch as certain portions
have been extracted and read by the members of the committee, I
think it would be helpful to the committee to have the full text of
the document as an exhibit for reference purposes.
Senator Ervin. I made reference to it in propounding my questions
to the witness, but I didn't read anything into the record. I simply
stated the substance.
Senator Church. The gentleman from Arizona did.
Senator ER^^;N. That is right.
But I doubt very seriously whether this should be placed into the
record or made an exhibit, because it is unsworn testimony. I think
if anybody is interested in it, they ought to summon Mr. Reuther or
anybody else wlio has personal knowledge of these things and have
them testify. They should be asked the questions.
Frankly, I can't see how it could possibly incriminate this witness
if this witness would admit that he had had notice to appear before a
trial committee and has not appeared. I can't see how that would
incriminate liim, but, it might.
I believe they do say that in the law there is such a thing of admis-
sion by silence. Wlien you have an opportunity to speak, a man would
naturally speak if he were innocent. But if he fails to do so, that
might be an indication of his being guilty.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, this would not be sworn evidence, this
document. You can pick up a newspaper and read from it and be
asked a question which asks, "Did you know that, or do you believe
19952 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
that is true?" whatever you want to ask about it, in order to make a
predicate for a question. You can do that, but it is not evidence.
What is in this document is not evidence until it is sworn to.
I would suggest a better procedure would be to reserve the docu-
ment, ask questions from it, if anyone wants to, and then we will
subpena Mr. Keuther and have him here to be questioned about, if
anyone wants him to appear. I think that would be a better way.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman, just to keep the record straight,
I have not read the whole thing, but — —
The Chairman. You can read it and ask him about it, but your
question is not testimony. That is the difference.
Senator Goldwater. I agree with you 100 percent. But instead of
boring the committee with reading the whole thing, I wanted to try
to get at some basis of establishing a question that I happen to think
a logical one to cover.
The constitution of the international union says in section 3, article
30, page 66 :
Upon charges being submitted, it is mandatory that a trial be held, unless
the charges are withdrawn by the accusers.
In other words, this man has to be tried, according to this, accord-
ing to my understanding of it. He does not have the right to resign,
hut he did resign.
Now he has been taking the fifth amendment here, and I appreciate
the reason that he is taking it. He said it might be so that he could
be indicted in New York for testimony that he might give down here.
But at the same time, he refused to appear before a grand jury in the
city and county of New York.
At a subsequent time after charges were registered against him
in the union he resigned, and he was allowed to resign.
The situation to me, to be perfectly honest with you, has much of the
earmarks of a possible payoff, as many of the fishing expeditions we
went on with other witnesses in other cases. That is my whole pur-
pose in asking. It is not to embarrass anybody who has written this
circular.
I may be in complete ignorance as to the reading of the constitu-
tion, but as I read it, that is what it says. I can only go by my under-
standing of it.
Senator Ervin. Another observation I started to make was that
there is no provision that if a man is a member of a union or any other
organization of that type, a private organization, if he is summoned
for trial, there is no way he can be arrested and brought there if he
will not go. That is the difference between trials of that nature and
trials in lodges and cliarges and trials in churches, even. That is the
difference between that type of trial and in a court.
Wliile that provision of the constitution is certainly there, which
says it is mandatory, I doubt the advisability of any organization
undertaking to try a man in absentia.
The Chairman. It certainly is not evidence.
Proceed and question from it, and state that it has this or that, and
ask anything you want to about it.
Senator Ervin. I would like to say this, in view of what I have said,
that certainly we would have to agree with the Senator from Massa-
chusetts that so far there is no evidence of any contact between Mr.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19953
Zvara and, on the other hand by anybody else with reference to these
matters concerning which he has taken the fifth amendment.
The Chairman, Counsel in questioning said that he did not have
information to that effect.
Is that correct ?
Mr. IManuel. That is right.
The Chairman. That is why I said that these questions were noth-
ing but a fishing inquiry to try to ascertain whether this witness
would talk or whether he would answer.
In other words, if you would be inclined to say "No," of course,
you can do that.
Mr. Friedman. May I confer with my client, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Ervin. Before you do that, I appreciate that counsel is
presented by a witness that is in a situation of which he is not co-
operative.
That is all.
The Chairman. You may confer.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Friedman. Thank you.
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Zvara
Senator Curtis. Senator Mundt, when you raised the question of
the counsel being sworn, he was on the verge of making a statement.
I don't believe he finished.
Senator Mundt. I don't think he was sworn. I don't think he
wanted to be a witness. I don't believe Senator Kennedy wanted him
to be a witness.
The Chairman. I thought he was asking for information. If you
want the counsel's statement, any statement, from him to be evidence,
he has to be sworn.
Mr. Friedman. As I understand, Senator Kennedy asked me if I
would be willing to be sworn, and I said "Yes."
The Chairiman. Does any member want him sworn or want his state-
ment under oath ? Otherwise, you give a statement for information.
Proceed.
Senator Mundt. My question is to the witness.
The Chairman. I was talking about the attorney.
Senator Mi^ndt. There has been a lot of talk around here as to
whetlier or not you were summoned before the grand jury and re-
fused to testify. As I understood it, that is what occurred. I am not
a lawyer. You and I meet on common ground, unless you are a
lawyer. I would assume tliat if you were summoned to a grand jury,
you would have to go.
Rut that is good information for us laymen to have. I would like
to find out : Is it true that you were summoned before the grand jury
and refused to test i f y ?
Mr. Zvara. Mi-. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Mundt. Do you honestly believe that if you gave an honest
answer to that question it could conceivably incriminate you ?
If it was incriminatory evidence and you had refused to go, you
would be in trouble right now. If it is not incriminatory evidence.
19954 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
you have no right to plead the fifth amendment to it, because the
fifth amendment is involved only when you can protect yourself by
refusing to testify. I want to ask you : Do you honestly believe that if
you gave an honest answer to my question as to whether you were
summoned before the grand jury and refused to testify, that you think
that would incriminate you ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the Con-
stitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that you order the wit-
ness to answer that question, because I can't conceive of the fact that
it would be held by any court to be a valid exercise of his rights.
The Chairman. The Chair sustains the request of Senator Mundt
and will order and direct the witness to answer the question whether
he was subpenaed before the grand jury in New York, and then re-
fused to appear and testify.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Also whether you believe a truthful answer to that
question might tend to incriminate you.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. ZvARA. On ad\rice of my counsel, Senator, I want to inform you
that I was not subpenaed to go before the grand jury.
The Chairman, You were not subpenaed to go before the grand
jury. All right.
The question has been answered.
Senator Mundt. Now I suggest that Mr. Curtis and Mr. Manuel
pick it up at that point. He tells us that he was not subpenaed to
go before the grand jury.
Mr. JNIanuel. Mr. Chairman, I think I can clear it up, and I think
Mr. Friedman can agree.
It is a matter of public inf onnation in the press.
Mr. Hogan's office in New York would not issue a subpena to Mr.
Zvara because it can-ied automatic immunity. Since they would not
give him immunity, Mr. Zvara would not go in. Substantially that
is correct.
Mr. Friedman. That is correct.
The Chairman. In other words, they did not offer immunity to
Zvara, but they did to Dale ; is that correct ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, that is substantially correct.
Senator Mundt. Thank you for clarifying that.
I don't know if it would be a matter of moment, but it did not
occur to me to be a valid use of the fifth amendment. I wonder if
you cannot be cooperative with the committee on some of these other
questions.
Tlie fact that you refused to answer a question as to whether or
not you shared any of this commission that you received with Mr.
Gosser could or could not reflect upon Mr. Gosser. You can honestly
say, '*No" to that question, and you will clarify the situation as far
as one of the problems with which this committee is concerned. You
have been a member of the UAW, I presume, for a long time. It must
be an organization of which you were proud to be a member. I would
think you would owe some sense of loyalty both to Mr. Gosser and
Mr. Reuther. By answering "no" to these questions, you can clear
them of suspicion or implication of suspicion.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19955
I would think as a good member of the union and a faithful follower
of them for many, many years, you would want to do that, so I ask
you this question : Did you share any of this commission that you
received from the Electric Auto-Lite people or the Elliott people with
Mr. Gosser?
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Mundt. But you realize, Mr. Zvara, if you could say "No'^
to that question, you would be very helpful to Mr. Gosser, and you
would eliminate any area of suspicion which might arise out of the
fact that you refuse to answer the question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment ?
(At this point Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Mr. Zvara. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege of the Constitu-
tion not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Mundt. I thought you might have welcomed an opportu-
nity to help clarify the issue.
Mr. Friedman. Senator, may I say that that goes to the investiga-
tion in New York.
Senator Kennedy. I object to those words of area of suspicion. It
may be that Mr. Gosser received this information, and information
will be developed to demonstrate that.
But I do not believe he can possibly sustain the point that merely
because he takes the fifth amendment in regard to that question that
that builds up an area of suspicion.
Did you give any of the money to Mr. Manuel?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Mundt. I hoped that it would eliminate any question.
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Kennedy. I don't know if Gosser got the money or not.
Maybe they will show that he did. I think merely because the wit-
ness takes a fifth amendment, unless there is information behind the
question, that because he takes the fifth amendment an area of sus-
picion has been generated.
I asked him with regard to Mr. Manuel. Quite obviously Mr. Man-
uel did not receive any money. The fact that you took the fifth on
that question does not indicate a scintilla of information. If you gave
the money to Mr. Gosser or not, it seems to me that it must wait on
evidence, not whether you took the fifth amendment with regard to the
question.
Senator Curtis. Might I say with regard to that, I believe the Sen-
ator made some reference to intent or objective of the hearing in
question. It is not the objective to get information on any specific
person. The objective of these questions is to find out if he gave it to
anybody, and if anybody else shared in this, let the chips fall where
they may.
Here is a witness who, according to the previous witness, did handle
this money. He was a witness that, according to the statement, the
statement of counsel, counsel was taken by surprise that he did not
testify. I merely wanted to clear the point. It is not to find evidence
30751— 60— pt. 58 4
19956 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
against Mr. Gosser or any other particular pei-son. Our objective is
to find out what are the facts.
I want to ask you : Did you share this money with anyone ?
Mr. ZvARA. Mr. Chairman, I invoke the privilege under the U.S.
Constitution not to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Are you afraid of anybody?
Mr. ZvARA. I invoke the privilege under the U.S. Constitution not
to be a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Has anyone, other than your own lawyer, advised
you in any manner about your testimony here ?
Mr. Zvara. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Kennedy. May I ask: Wlien was it that the witness in-
formed you that he would talk and when was it he withdrew that
agreement ?
Mr. Manuel. I believe I can give you an approximate date.
Senator Kennedy. While waiting, I will ask the attorney a ques-
tion.
Were you aware of the fact that they didn't have any agreement to
testify?
Mr. Friedman. The witness didn't make the agreement. I made
the agreement with Mr. Manuel and I am the one who called it off.
Senator Kennedy. Do you object to being sworn in regard to this
matter ?
Mr. Friedman. No, I do not.
Senator Mundt. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall
give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Friedman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MARCUS L. FRIEDMAN
Senator Kennedy. Could I ask you : Did you agree that this wit-
ness would testify ?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, I did.
Senator Kennedy. Can you tell us what date that was ?
Mr. Friedman. I can't give you the exact date. It was sometime
when Mr. INIanuel was in the city of Toledo. I think the last part of
June or the early part of May.
Am I correct ?
Mr. Manuel. I am not certain. I think it was May.
Mr. Friedman. The latter part of May or the first of June is my
recollection.
Senator Kennedy. A^Hien did you withdraw that ?
Mr. Friedman. On June 22, by a wire that I sent to Mr. Manuel.
That was on June 22.
Mr. Manuel. And later it was confinned by telephone.
Senator Kennedy. This states that the files of the New York grand
jury were being surrendered to the committee and —
Therefore, in the interest of fairplay and justice, we feel we must cancel the
appointment —
and so forth.
In other words, when you read this story in the Toledo press, you
advised your client not to participate?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19957
Mr. Friedman. That is correct.
Senator Kennedy. So tliis information comes as no surprise ?
Mr. Manuel. That is correct.
Senator Kennedy. As of that time, did you have an indication that
sometliing other than the Toledo story caused him to change?
Mr. Manuel. I don't know. He confirmed by telephone that Mr.
Zvara would invoke his privilege and refuse to testify. My only ques-
tion to him was what occasioned the change of heart.
Senator Kennedy. Maybe the information is in the wire.
Mr. Friedman. That is correct. It was based on a newspaper story
which appeared in the Toledo Blade, which I put into my opening
statement. We thought the case had been closed in New York.
(At this point Senator McClellan returned to the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Is this the wire that you sent ?
Mr. Friedman. From the way Senator Kennedy read it, it is my
wire.
The Chairman. Will you examine it and state if that is your wire ?
Mr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. It will be made exliibit No. 15.
(Telegram referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 15" for reference
and will be found in the api>endix on p. 20409.)
Mr, Friedman. I would say this is the wire I sent out of Toledo
to Mr. Kobert Manuel.
Senator Mundt. While you are still wearing your hat as a witness,
you may become unsworn and become a witnevSS again. I wonder
if in view of the ruling by the Chair that a newspaper story in Toledo,
Ohio, pending perhaps that Mr. Zvara would not be called before the
grand jury, would not be considered a valid excuse for Mr. Zvara to
refuse to testify. Our committee has been consistent throughout these
hearings in holding that the grand jury is not a reason for a man not
to testify.
In view of that rule, and if I am supported by the committee, I
wonder if you would be willing to advise your client that it is fair
now to testify so that we may clear up some of these activities and
some of these questions.
Mr. Friedman. Sir, as a lawyer, representing an individual, I
cannot at this time change my position of advice to my client, based
on the fact that there is still an open case pending in the State of
New York, which may or not return a presentment of indictment in
the city of New York or New York County.
I must say this, that any testimony that could become public could
be used by the grand jury or the prosecution in the State of New York
for its own use. Anything we say could be used either for or against
us in that grand jury.
Therefore, I must advise my client not to testify and be a witness
against himself in my true conscience.
Senator Church. In your telegram, do you state the whole reason
why you advised your client to testify here ?
Mr. Friedman. That is correct, sir.
Senator Church. There was no further reason?
Mr. Friedman. None, sir.
Senator Church. Then you were not as his lawyer contacted by
Mr. Walter Reuther or Mr. Gosser or any other high official of the
19958 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
UAW, and offered any kind of arrangement which formed the basis
of your advice to him not to testify here ?
Mr. Friedman. I would like to answer that by making a statement
first.
I have not been a labor lawyer in my life. I have represented Mr.
Zvara as an individual client. I have not been in contact with any
of the attorneys for the UAW, or Mr. Reuther, or a Mr. Conroy, or a
Mr. Rauh, who I met for the first time here today, standing in the
corridor.
The advice I have given him is mine and mine alone.
Senator Church. What about Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Friedman. The only time I talked to Mr. Gosser was some 15
or 20 years ago. I have never talked to Mr. Gosser in the last 15
years.
Senator Church. So none of these men you have named, and no
attorneys for the UAW, have contacted you in your capacity as this
man's lawyer, for the purpose of inducing you to advise him not to
testify before this committee ?
Mr. Friedman. The answer is absolutely "No." If they had ad-
vised me contrary to my opinion, I believe I know what I would have
told them.
Senator Church. I believe I know what you would have told them,
too.
That is all.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
The witness will remain under his present subpena, subject to being
recalled at such time as the committee may desire to hear further
testimony from him.
You will be given reasonable notice of the tmie and place where
the committee will desire to hear you.
Do you acknowledge that recognizance ?
Mr. Friedman. He has been so advised by myself, Mr. Chairman.
He is under continuous order of this committee until such time as
the matter is fully and completely settled.
The Chairman. We will accept your recognizance.
Call the next witness.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Ernest Love.
The Chairman. Please be sworn, Mr. Love.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Love. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ERNEST H. LOVE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
MARCUS L. FRIEDMAN
The Chairman. All right. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Would you state your name, please ?
Mr. Love. Ernest H. Love.
Senator Curtis. Your address?
Mr. Love. 4650 Sylvania Road, Toledo, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. What is your work or occupation?
Mr Friedman. May I make a statement at this time, Senator «
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19959
Mr. Love's records were taken before the New York grand jury,
who also was under investigation in the same case arising out of the
investigation of ^Ir. Kichard Gosser, Mr. Peter Zvara, one Kenneth
D. Long, and Mr. Love. Although he never w^as subpenaed or sum-
moned or requested before the grand jury, a possible indictment
would ensue on a further investigation.
Therefore, on all questions with reference to any moneys he might
have received, I have instructed him to refuse to answer.
Senator Curtis. Have you at any time held any position for salai-y
with any part of the UAW ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Senator, I invoke the privilege under the Constitution
not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. Let me ask one question. Are you still a member
of the union?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Friedman. May I say this: If I may have this privilege to
consult with him on each question, certain questions I would allow
him to answer, with the understanding that it does not open the door
to go into things that I might feel, as a lawyer, might hurt him in
a future investigation.
The Chairman. The Chair will permit you to consult wdth your
client any time you desire. I want that understood. I am soiTy I
didn't make it clear.
Mr. Friedman. What I meant was I didn't want to open the door
where one question would lead to a series of other questions where
we could not invoke the privilege.
The Chairman. I wouldn't construe it, if he said he was still a mem-
ber of the union, that that would lead to compelling him to answer
other questions. He can say, "I am a doctor,"' but he doesn't have to
say what patients he has treated, or he can say, "I am a lawyer," but
not say what clients he has.
He can say whether he is a union member oi- not, and then the
next question would be whether he was a union officer or not.
Mr. Love. Yes, I belong to the union.
The Chairman. What official position do you hold ?
Mr. Love. None.
The Chairman. Have you ever held an official position in the
union ?
Mr. Love. Yes, I have.
The Chairman. What position ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr, Love. I have been president, chief steward, trustee.
The Chairman. Of what ?
Mr. Love. Local 1058 UAW, Toledo, Ohio.
The Chairman. Where is it located ?
Mr. Love. Toledo.
The Chairman. All right.
You may proceed. I just wanted to find out if he belonged to the
union.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever receive any commissions or payments
from the George Elliott Co. in New York ?
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be a
witness against myself.
19960 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Did you ever perform any services for tlie George
Elliott Co. ?
Mr. LoATE. I invoke the privileges under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Did you share with anybody else any funds from
the George Elliott Co. ?
Mr. hoYE. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be a.
witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Do you know Peter Zvara?
Mr. Lo^^5. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Did you receive any f imds from Peter Zvara ?
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be a
witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Did you receive any funds from Peter Zvara that
you have reason to believe came from the George Elliott Co. ?
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be a
witness against myself.
Mr. ISIanuel. Mr. Love, here again you can consult with your at-
torney, but are you now, or were you ever, a part of the Doehler Jarvis
Coimcil in Toledo, Ohio ?
Mr. Friedman. I don't understand that.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know what the Doehler Jarvis Council is ?
Mr. Love. Yes, I do.
Mr. Manuel. Consult with your attorney and see if he will advise
you to describe what it is.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witnes against myself.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know what Doehler Jarvis is ?
Do you know the Doehler Jarvis is an employer in Toledo?
Mr. Lo^T). Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Does Doehler Jarvis bargain collectively with the
United Automobile Workers ?
(At this point Senator Kennedy withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Friedman. Again we come to the point where if he answers
that "Yes,'' it could lead to where he would be foreclosed from taking
his privilege under the Constitution.
I would allow him to answer that on tlie understanding that on the
following questions we could accept the privilege without a citation
for contempt.
The Chairman. May I ask Senator Curtis in presenting this testi-
mony at this point : We can probably get more testimony than we are
going to get if you agree, and I will leave it to your discretion, that
whatever door you open you will not pursue it with the idea of prose-
cuting him, having him cited for contempt, if he ceases or stops at
any point in answering. I will leave it to you.
Senator Curtis. I would say this, that I don't feel it is necessary
to make such an agreement. I think it is the witness' right and the
duty of a lawyer to judge each question on its merits. I certainly
would not use the answer to one question as grounds for insisting
that the privilege could not be claimed against any subsequent ques-
tion.
The Chairman. That is all apparently he wants assurances of.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19961
Mr. Friedman. I want assurance of it, because I don't want to get
myself involved in litigation to prove a point. If we have that as-
surance, there are a lot of questions we would answer and a lot of
questions that we can't answer, that we want the privilege of refusing
to answer, without going through the possible citation for contempt.
The Chairman. I was trying to clear it up. If you had an under-
standing, you might get more information from a witness.
Senator Curtis. What we want is information about this thing,
and we are not seeking to punish this witness or to deprive him of
his rights in refusing to testify against his own interests.
(At this point Senator Kennedy returned to tlie hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. I believe the question was whether or not you knew
whether the Doehler Jarvis Co. had a bargaining contract with the
UAW.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Yes.
Senator Goldwater. Will the Senator yield at that point? I am
a little confused.
In this administrative letter from the UAW it referred to Doehler
Jarvis Local No, 1058 UAW. Is Doehler Jarvis a company or a
local?
Mr. Friedman. It is a company.
Senator Goldw^ater. Doehler Jarvis is the company, and local 1058
is the local ?
It says terminated membei-ship in Toledo, Doehler Jarvis Local 1058
UAW.
Senator ER^^[N. They have the name of the company in the local.
Senator Goldwater. The firm name is not hyphenated.
Senator Curtis. What does Doehler Jarvis manufacture?
Mr. Love. Diecastings.
Senator Curtis. And there is a local union referred to as Doehler
Jarvis 1058 ; is that correct ?
Mr. Lo\t:. Yes, that is correct.
Senator Curtis. Can you tell us, and I am not asking for names,
can you tell us what they mean by the Doehler Jarvis Council ?
(At this point Senators Mundt and Goldwater withdrew from the
hearing room.)
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be a
witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. I have nothing further, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions?
Did I understand you to say that you are still a union official ?
Mr. Lo\'e. No, I am a union member, Senator.
The Chairman. Just a union member now ?
Mr. Love. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you cease to be a union official subsequent to
the time of these matters being inquired about?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Would you repeat the question ?
The Chairman. Has there been some disciplinary action taken, or
did you voluntarily take action to withdraw as an officer of the union
since these matters came to attention ?
19962 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I voluntarily resigned.
The Chairman. When ? Just approximately the date.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. About the middle of April.
The Chairman. This year ?
Mr. Love. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. At whose request did you resign ?
Mr. Love, It was nobody's request. I just resigned.
Senator Curtis. When would your term of office have been up ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I was not an officer at the time of resignation. I was in-
ternational representative for the UAW.
Senator Curtis. Assigned to whom ?
Mr. Love. To the staff of Eichard Gosser.
Senator Curtis. To the staff of Richard Gosser ?
Mr. Love. Yes.
Senator Curtis. And you voluntarily resigned ?
Mr. Love. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Did you have any conversations with anybody
concerning your resignation ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Do you mean before I quit ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Love. No.
Senator Curtis. At the time you quit did you have any ?
Mr. Love. At the time I
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Well, I talked to Mr. Gosser at the time I resigned. I
gave him my resignation.
Senator Curtis. Who suggested the subject of resigning first in this
conversation ?
( The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lo\^. I had stated before discussion with anyone that I was
resigning.
Senator Curtis. I can't hear you.
Mr. Love. I said I had made the statement myself that I was going
to resign, actually, several days before I actually did.
Senator Curtis. Did you seek an appointment with Mr. Gosser?
Mr. Love. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. He sent for you ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. No.
Senator Curtis. You didn't seek an appointment and he didn't
send for you ?
Mr. Love. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. T
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. There was a meeting called in Detroit with certain union
people and certain staff people, and I was in attendance at that meet-
ing. It was after that meeting that I conversed with Mr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. You were in attendance at the meeting ?
Mr. Lo^rE. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Wlio else was at the meeting ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19963
( The witness conferred witli his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Well, there was a Mr. Brown.
Senator Curtis. Who is he ?
Mr. Love. Mr. Brown is an international representative.
Senator Curtis. Who else was there ?
Mr. Lo\'E. There was a ISIr. Brown, Eddie Brown, international
representative. There was Mr. Joseph Ross, also an international
representative ; Mr. Joe Mooney, an administrative assistance to Mr.
Gosser. There was a Mr. Roberts, from Toledo; a Mr. Barker.
Senator Curtis. What was their business. Roberts and Barker?
Mr. Love. Local union officials of 1058. There was a Mr. Anthrum,
and a Mr. R. Roberts, also officials of Toledo Local 1058. There was
a Mr. A. DeSanto, from Batavia, N.Y. I think their local is 1057.
A Mr. Frank Giglio, an officer of local 1057 ; a Mr. DePiazza, of local
1057.
Senator Curtis. There was a staff meeting?
Mr. Love. This was a meeting called — —
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. LiOYE. I received instructions from an administrative assistant,
Mr. Walter Madryzkowski, to convene at this meeting in Detroit. I
don't remember the exact date.
Senator Curtis. Did he tell you what the meeting was about?
Mr. Love. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. He holds what job?
Mr. Love. He is an administrative assistant to Mr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. What was the meeting about ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. The purpose of the meeting was to name the successor
to Mr. Zvara.
Senator Curtis. To name the successor to Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Love. Yes.
Senator Curtis. And it was at that meeting that you saw Mr.
Gosser ?
Mr. Love. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Who presided over that ?
Mr. Love. Gr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. And was it during the meeting or after the meet-
ing you told him that you were going to resign ?
Mr. Love. I made a statement at the meeting that I had intended
to resign. But at that particular time I didn't do it. It was later that
I resigned.
Senator Curtis. What prompted you to make the statement that
you were going to resign ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Well, number one, I thought that I was entitled to the
successor's job. I didn't receive it. That is probably actually what
prompted it.
Senator Mundt. Would you tell me what you were resigning from?
Mr. Love. I was an international representative for the UAW.
Senator Mundt. You were not resigning from the union, but you
were resigning your position that you had ?
Mr. Love. That is correct. I wasn't resigning my membership, but
just the position.
19964 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. Who is Mr. DeSanto, from Batavia ?
Mr. Love. Mr. DeSanto from Batavia is a local officer of Batavia
Local 1057.
Senator Curtis. Did Mr. Zvara resign from the union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Yes ; to my knowledge he resigned.
Senator Curtis. That is, his membership in the union ?
Mr. Love. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. He was not expelled ?
Mr. Love. Not to my knowledge he wasn't.
(At this point Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Charges had been filed with the executive board
against him ; had they not ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Yes, they were filed, to my knowledge.
Senator Curtis. But no trial was held ?
Mr. Love. No, no.
Senator Curtis. Wliy was not the trial held ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
(At this point Senator Mmidt entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Love. Well, I assume the reason it wasn't held — I really don't
know ; I assume this — was because Mr. Zvara resigned membership in
the union and, therefore, there was no further cause for the meeting.
Senator Curtis. Was it your understanding that if someone is
charged, charges brought against them before the executive board,
he may resign, and that eliminates the trial ?
Mr. Love. Would you repeat that. Senator ?
Senator Curtis. Was it your imderstanding that under the con-
stitution that when charges are pending, the accused can resign and
then the trial will not be held ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I don't know that. Senator. I couldn't answer.
Senator Curtis. Reading the section I referred to once before, sec-
tion 3 of article 30, on page 66 of this copy of the constitution of the
international union :
Upon charges being submitted, it is mandatory that the trial be held, unless
the charges are withdrawn by the accuser.
Do you know who the accuser was of Mr. Zvara ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. The accuser was the international union, I presume.
Senator Curtis. The executive board ?
Mr. Love. I presume.
Mr. Friedmax. May I interrupt a moment? I would like to confer
with him.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. In answer to the previous question, I don't know that.
Mr. Friedman I might say to the Senator I told him not to pre-
sume or assume, but he should tell what he actually knows or doesn't
know. His assumptions are of no value.
Senator Curits. Were you at any meeting or do you have any direct
knowledge of charges against Mr. Zvara being dropped ?
Mr. Love. No, sir ; I wasn't.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19965
Senator Curtis. Wus any reference made to it at this meeting that
YOU said was to pick a successor to Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Love. Xo, sir; there wasn't.
Senator Ervix. As a matter of hiw, I wonder if a union would have
any authority to try a man who resigns. I don't know whether they
would have the authoi-ity to try him.
Mr. Friedman. May 1 make a statement?
I checked that very carefully, and the miion had no authority to
try him when he was no longer a member under their jurisdiction.
Very frankly, I instructed my client to resign because I felt that any-
thing that might have been said or done before that connnittee could
jeopardize his position with the New York grand jury, just as our
position here. But the minute that he was not under their jurisdic-
tion, a trial would have been a mockery, because he was no longer a
member of any local union.
Senator Goldwater. You are referring to ]Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Friedman. Yes.
Senator Goldwater. I thought you might have been referring to
this man.
Mr. Friedman. That was the former witness — Mr. Zvara.
Senator Mundt. From your study of the rules and bylaws of the
UAW, does an individual human being have any different status,
vis-a-vis, the union, whether he resigns or whether lie is expelled ? I
am thinking in terms of pensions, perhaps, or old-age benefits. Is
there a distinction?
Mr. Friedman. Frankly. I didn't go into that. I just went into his
legal rights as to whether they could or could not have a hearing while
he was absent in the event he handed in his resignation. But as to
other benefits, I didn't get into that.
Senator Mundt. You don't know whether he retained some benefits
by resigning?
"Mr. Friedman. I do know myself that he retained nothing. There
is a clean, absolute severance.
Senator Ervin. In the practice of law, I think perhaps a union, if a
bylaw so provided, if after notice a man failed to appear for trial,
they could go ahead and try him or suspend him. But when he re-
signs and severs his connection with the union, it would seem to me
that the union, after investigating the law, could no longer exercise
any jurisdiction over the man.
They might have some jurisdiction over some benefit or something
that the union had control of, but as far as trying him as an individual,
I think they would be beyond their jurisdiction.
Mr. Friedman. May 1 use this illustration ? I have been quite ac-
tive in my younger days in the Odd Fellows. We had a trial set up
there in case you violated any of the rules or regulations of the
order.
If I would resign from the order, the order could go no further
with me, because I was no longer in their jurisdiction. This miion
constitution is based on the same ground as any fraternal organiza-
tion, practically.
Senator Curtis. But sometimes a person is expelled from a union
for, say, 99 years, and one of our witnesses 110 years, and he can't
get back in the union, so he is denied a job. I think it would be in-
19966 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
teresting for legislative purposes to find out whether or not he could
have protected his rights against such punishment by a mere resigna-
tion. It goes to a degree of punishment that tlie organization in-
flicts.
Mr. Friedman. Legally now, as his attorney, I didn't go into that
phase of it. I went into the phase of protecting the record so that
no evidence could be propounded that could be used against him in
the State of New York.
Finding that his resignation would take away jurisdiction and,
therefore, they could not question him or bring out any evidence,
we took the course, at my advice, of resigning, to remove any juris-
dictional rights that the UAW may or may not have had over Peter
Zvara as an individual man.
Senator Mundt. The reason I raised the question is — and you have
answered that you did but advise him with the grand jury in mind,
but not with reference to his resuming his position later with the
union, in Government — a Government employee who resigns retains
certain status rights, pension rights, and retirement rights, as against
the fellow who is expelled under what they call the Hiss Act, where,
if he is expelled for certain reasons, he is deprived of some of these
items.
Mr. Friedman. I know that act very well. I was with the Gov-
ernment for 12 years, with the Department of Justice.
Senator Mundt. So you realize that.
Mr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. Is there anything further with this witness?
Senator Church. In other words, as far as Mr. Zvara was con-
cerned, he was a member of the miion ; you were concerned about the
grand jury investigation; he was under charges by the union to be
tried and might have been punished according to the union constitu-
tion if he had been found guilty.
You advised him to resign from the union. When he resigned from
the union — the union couldn't prevent him from resigning, could it ?
Mr. Friedman. No.
Senator Church. So when he resigned from the union, he was out-
side of their jurisdiction and, therefore, they had no further juris-
diction, so they didn't proceed with the hearing against him.
Mr. Friedman. That is correct. That is an absolute statement.
Senator Church. Thank you.
Senator Kennedy. You have resigned your position, but you have
not suffered any disciplinary action by the union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Except for your own voluntary action, no one
connected with tlie union ever discussed instituting any charges
against you which might have led to your possible expulsion because
you were connected with the same matter as Mr. Zvara ?
Mr. Love. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Why, if Mr. Zvara has been subjected to the
threat of expulsion, charges which might have led to expulsion, which
caused his resignation — and there has been no action taken against
you, other than to acquiesce in your resignation. Do you have any
explanation in the difference of treatment ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19967
Mr. Friedman. That is pretty hard to explain. All we can do is
assume there. If I may express an assumption, I will be ^lad to. My
assumption there is that we disobeyed the order of the UAW under
their ethical code regulations to voluntarily appear at Detroit and
subject ourselves to the grand jury action.
In view of the fact that we refused to abide by their direction —
that is why the disciplinary action, because we absolutely, at my
advice, Mr. Zvara, refused to proceed to New York voluntarily.
Senator Kennedy. In this case, what happened ?
Mr. Friedman. Mr. Zvara is no longer with the union. Mr. Love
was never directed to go to New York, nor did the New York grand
jury ever ask him to go to New York. That is the distinction. He was
never requested either to go voluntarily or otherwise.
Senator Kennedy. In other words, the disciplinary action was
invoked because of the refusal, not because of the financial arrange-
ments ?
Mr. Friedman. Because of his refusal to abide by tlie code of ethics
set up by the UAW that each man must voluntarily appear before
an investigative body without taking the fifth amendment. That is
what he refused to do at my advice.
I am talking about Mr. Zvara, That was strictly at my advice.
Senator Church. Isn't it true, Mr. Friedman, that the union could
not have based any action with respect to Mr. Zvara upon the alleged
transaction — commission transaction — that he was charged with, be-
cause that matter never proceeded to a hearing where a determination
could be made by a union ?
Mr. Friedman. That is my opinion.
Senator Church. Therefore, the only basis that they did have to
act on was the basis that you have mentioned, his refusal to volun-
tarily go to the grand jury, which was a violation of their code of
ethics.
Mr. Friedman. That is correct. That is my understanding.
Senator Curtis. I would like to ask Mr. Love : Did any officials of
the union make any inquiry concerning whether or not you partici-
pated in commissions from the George Elliott Co. ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Did any union officials ask you whether or not you
received such commissions ^
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. I am not asking you for what you told them.
I am merely asking: Did any union officials inquire into whether or
not you received commissions from the George Elliott Co. ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Did you receive any commissions ?
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. You resigned as international representative, but
have you received any other punishment or censorship from the union ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
19968 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Have you been asked to resign as a member of the
union?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. Have you disclosed to any union officials any facts
relating to commissions received from the George Elliott Co. ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lo^^. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator INIundt.
Senator Mundt. You resigned as an international representative
because of what I would call sort of self-iuiposed discipline, deciding
to do that, and part of out of disappointment because you did not get
the reappointment to take Mr. Zvara's place.
You also said that you had had an office, I think, as president of the
local union. Is that right ?
Mr. Love. Yes ; that is correct.
Senator Mundt. Did you hold that at the same time you were in-
ternational representative ?
Mr. Love. No : that was prior to that.
Senator Mundt. How does it happen ? Did you get promoted from
president to international representative? How did it happen you
were not president at this particular time ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I was defeated for reelection in the year 1957 for the
presidency of the local. Subsequent to that I was appointed inter-
national representative.
Senator Mundt. How long were you international representative?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lo^TE. I was an international representative twice — interna-
tional representative in the years 1948-49. I resigned in 1950, And
again I was appointed international representative in 1957; October^
I believe.
Senator Mundt. That is an appointive job ?
Mr. Lo\'E. That is correx^t.
Senator Mundt. Wlio appoints you ?
Mr. Love. Mr. Gosser.
Senator Mundt. When you were an international representative, did
you make contributions to what our committee has had referred to
as the flower fund ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. LiOyt:. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be a
witness against myself.
Senator Mundt. Let me rephrase the question.
As an international representative were you ever compelled, in-
voluntarily, to make contributions to what we call a flower fund ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Lo\^. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be a
witness against myself.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19969
(At this point Senator Capehart entered the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt. Are you willing to say whether you are aware of
the existence of an apparatus called the flower fund ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be a.
witness against myself.
Senator Mundt. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Any other questions ?
Senator Kennedy. There is some question about whether it is pos-
sible because he has been expelled from the union to be expelled from
his ]ob. Mj recollection of the Taft-Hartley Act is that tliat does not
necessarily follow. A company is not compelled to fire a man merely
because he^is expelled from the union, and if the union seeks to have
him fired for that reason, they would be in danger of an unfair labor
practice.
Senator Goldwater. I might say in that connection, the constitution
^l !i 1- • specifically prevents a man from losing his job because
of that discipline. 1 ou will find it in article 30, around page 65 or 66
1 happened to notice it in there. He cannot lose his job. But if he
loses his job because of some action of the company in deciding to let
him go, then he could not get employment elsewhere wherever the
particular local had contracts.
Senator Church. In any case, there was no expulsion involved in
these witnesses.
Senatx)r Goldwater. I was in error in the case of the machinists
m ivos Angeles, when I said it was tantamount to losing their job. It
was not. That is when the three men were dismissed because of
supporting right to work. But if they subsequently lose their job
because of their own doings and the company's doings, they could
not then be employed wherever the contract existed with that par-
ticular union.
Senator Ervin. I have a very indistinct recollection that the Taft-
Hartley Act, Itself, in authorizing a union shop, provides that a man
cannot be discharged by the union on any ground except his failure
to pay dues.
Senator Goldwater. That is correct. That is in section 8(a), I
believe. ^ ^ '
Senator Mundt. Maybe I should ask you this, Mr. Love : You are
now a workman or a foreman or a mechanic or something workino- for
this company for which the union is named, are you ? ^
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. Yes. I am now presently employed at the Doehler Jarvis
Corp. m Toledo.
Senator Mundt. And paid by them ?
Mr. Love. I am being paid by management for work performed.
Senator Mundt. Do you receive any pay from the union in any
way, shape, or fonn?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. No.
Senator Mundt. Your sole source of income, as far as your con-
nection with that company is concerned, is the pay you get "as a fore-
man?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
19970 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Love. That is correct.
Mr. Manuel. I have just two questions, if I may, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Love, were you chairman of the Doehler Jarvis imit of your
local?
Mr. Friedman. I didn't hear the question.
Mr. Manuel. Was he chairman of the Doehler Jarvis unit of his
local?
(The witness conferred with his coimsel.)
Mr. Lo\^. I was president of Doehler Jarvis Local 1058 ; yes.
Mr. Manuel. Were you also by virtue of that a member of the
Doehler Jai-vis council, composed of Mr. Zvara and Mr. Gosser?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. Love. I invoke the privilege under the Constitution not to be
a witness against myself.
Mr. Manuel. That is all.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Is there any thing further ?
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chainnan, might I ask Senator Curtis if
he has looked at the papers that came from the UAW through Mr.
Rauh, the material that he had requested the chairman request from
Mr. Rauh? I believe it was delivered here. It looks like a small
amount. I wondered if it was what you asked for ?
Senator Curtis. I don't know.
Senator Mundt. Does Mr. Curtis have permission to examine those?
The Chairman. Yes. I was examining them myself, briefly.
The witness will remain mider his present subpena, subject to being
recalled at such time as the committee may desire further testimony
from him. He will not be resubpenaed.
You will accept such recognizance ?
Mr. Friedman. Yes.
Senator Goldwater. I would like to say in closing that this has
been a rather unusual session, in that it is one of the few times that
I remember where the witness has been willing to cooperate in answer-
ing questions that would not directly aif ect him.
I would like to suggest that we might try more of this in our hear-
ings in the future, where we can offer assurances that he is not going
to be penalized for answering questions that have no bearing upon
the thing that he is trying to protect himself from.
Senator Mundt. I would like to add my word of appreciation, too,
Mr. Love. We appreciate the fact that you did say somethmg, be-
cause some of the witnesses just clam up. So I also salute Mr. Fried-
man for helping to open the gate and get us a little information.
I apologize for asking him to take an oath before he became a wit-
ness. But that is an old, standing operation and procedure.
Mr. Friedman. I want to thank you, members of the committee, lor
completing this todav.
The Chairman, the committee will be in recess until 10:30 to-
morrow morning.
(Members of the select committee present at time of recess : Senator
McClellan, Ervin, Curtis, Kennedy, Mundt, Goldwater, and Cape-
hart.) . , ^
(Whereupon, at 4:34 p.m., the select committee recessed, to recon-
vene at 10 :30 a.m., Wednesday, August 12, 1959.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
(On August 12, 1959, Richard T. Gosser and Joseph L. Rauh, Jr., testified in
executive session before the Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities in
the Labor or Management Field. This testimony was made public by the mem-
bers of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management
Field on August 19, 1959, and follows below.)
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 12, 1959
U.S. Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN the Labor or IVIanagement Field,
Washington^ D.O.
The select committee met at 10:30 a.m., pursuant to Senate Reso-
lution 44, agreed to February 2, 1959, in room 3302, Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator
Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Senator John F. Ken-
nedy, Democrat, Massachusetts ; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat,
North Carolina; Senator Frank Church, Democrat, Idaho; Senator
Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona ; Senator Carl T. Curtis, Re-
publican, Nebraska; Senator Homer E. Capehart, Republican, In-
diana.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, assistant chief counsel ; P. Kenneth O'Donnell, assistant counsel ;
Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel ; Robert E. Manuel, assistant coun-
sel; Pierre E, G. Salinger, investigator; Walter J. Sheridan, investi-
gator; Carmine S. Bellino, consulting accountant; Ruth Y. Watt,
chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session : Senators McClellan, Kennedy, Ervin, Capehart, Goldwater,
and Curtis.)
The Chairman. We will call Mr. Richard Gosser.
I understand that Mr. Gosser will not be available for about 20
minutes. The witness, Mr. Gosser, has been called.
(At this point Mr. Joseph L. Rauh entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Rauh. He will be ready in 20 minutes. Shall I get him ?
The Chairman. Wliy isn't he here now ? That is what I want to
know\
Mr. Rauh. He is not here because I called Senator Curtis' office
and I said, "Would you please let me know the list of the witnesses?"
19971
36751— 60— pt. 58 5
19972 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
and they would not give me any answer. Outside, when Senator Cur-
tis entered this room in front of the press, I said, "Senator Curtis,
may I please know the list of the witnesses?" and he said, "No, you
may not." I am not going to have Mr. Gosser stand out here.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Mr. Manuel this morning?
Mr. Rauh. I talked to him ahead of time and he told me he did not
know the order of witnesses and that Senator Curtis alone knew the
order of witnesses.
Senator Curtis. Just a minute. Mr. Rauh did not submit his ques-
tion to me limited to the witness or witnesses that he represents. He
asked for a list of the witnesses, and that was the end of the request.
Mr. Manuel. I told Mr. Rauh that this witness would be called first,
Mr. Gosser.
Mr. Rauh. That is not true. Your Honor.
Senator Curtis. That is true.
The Chairman. Now, we are operating under a very difficult situa-
tion here. The Chair is trying to keep these hearings going, and so I
am going to recess for 20 minutes, and at 11 o'clock we are going to re-
convene.
Get the witness down. Do you want them all standing out here
now ? I will do it any way you want to, to expedite the thing. Do
you want them all standing out in the hall ?
Senator Curtis. I have given you a list of the four that will be called
next.
The Chairman. Here are the witnesses, and get them in here.
(A document was handed to Mr. Rauh.)
Mr. Rauh. There are none of mine except Mr. Gosser, sir, but I will
get Mr. Gosser here in 20 minutes.
Mr. Manuel. I will get the rest of them, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I don't know who is going to be called, and I didn't
know until just now.
(AVliereupon, at 10 :45 a.m., a short recess was taken.)
(The hearing was resumed at 11 :10 a.m., with the following mem-
bers of the select committee present: Senators McClellan, Kennedy,
Ervin, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. The committee will please come to order.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gosser. I do.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD T. GOSSER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH L. RAUH, JR., LOWELL GOERLICH, AND FRANCIS RENO
Mr. Gosser. Mr. Chairman, I would like to pass this out to all of the
Senators.
The Chairman. Let us get you identified first and your counsel
identified.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Gosser, would you state your full name, please ?
Mr. GossER. Richard T. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. And what is your address ?
Mr. Gosser. 3476 Drummond Road, Toledo, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. Wliat is your business or occupation?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19973
Mr. GossER. I am a vice president of the United Automobile Work-
ers of America.
Senator Curtis. Do you hold any other office in the UAW ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. Are you a member of any councils, such as the
Doehler Jarvis Council?
Mr. GossER. In that respect, I understand what you mean. Yes ; I
am director of the council.
The Chairman. You have counsel present, have you, Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. GossER. Yes.
The Chairman. Counsel, will you identify yourselves, please ?
Mr. GoERLicH. My name is Lowell Goerlich, G-o-e-r-l-i-c-h, 1126
16th Street NW., Washington, D.C.
Mr. Joseph Rauli is here also representing Mr. Gosser, and Mr.
Francis Reno, from Toledo, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. He is an attorney ?
Mr. Goerlich. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. This is quite an array of counsel, I may say. I
think that we have permitted two heretofore, but it looks like we are
confronted with three. I personally have no objection. Does any
member of the committee have any objection?
Senator Ervin. No, but my father, who was a lawyer for a long
time, said that in a multitude of counsel was safety, and he didn't
know whether it was safety for the client or safety for the lawyers.
The Chairman. Well, with the answer to that in doubt, we will pro-
ceed.
Mr. Gosser said he had a statement. Do I understand you have a
prepared statement, Mr. Gosser, under the rules of the committee ?
Mr. Gosser. I do.
Senator Curtis, Mr. Chairman, I didn't want to go into any sub-
ject matter at this time. I wanted to ask him about his appearance
here, whether or not he was subpenaed.
The Chairman. You may ask him that.
Senator Curtis. You were not served with a subpena, were you ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes ; I was, excepting that I want to make it very clear
now so that I don't get another alias or something like that, you mis-
spelled my name, and the subpena says G-o-s-s-a, and my name is
spelled G-o-s-s-e-r, and if I get another alias, it is created by you
fellows and not me.
I didn't want to create any disturbance, and I accepted the subpena
because I knew it was intended for me.
The Chairman. Then the subpena was actually served?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, in Detroit, Mich., Monday morning, and I would
say around 11 or 12 o'clock.
Senator Curtis. Would you produce that subpena?
The Chairman. I sent an unsigned subpena to Mr. Rauh about
some documents, I believe, and maybe there was one to Mr. Gosser.
Mr. GossER. No ; the subpena has your name on it, Senator McClel-
lan.
The Chairman. All right ; let us see it.
(A document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. All right, I will pass it to Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Did you receive the subpena that had you bring
in some records ?
19974 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. No ; that is the only subpena I received.
^ Senator Curtis. Mr. Kauh, do you have that subpena? It is un-
signed.
Mr. Rauh. That is correct, Senator Curtis.
The Chairman. Mrs. Watt, do we have the original subpena, the
subpena with the return on it ?
Mrs. Watt. I will check the office.
The Chairman. If it has been returned, the returned subpena with
the return on it, a copy of this may be made an exhibit at this point.
Senator Curtis. This is the one I had reference to.
The Chairman. All right. To get the record straight, Mr. Rauh,
do you have the letter that accompanied the subpena ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes, sir ; I do.
The Chairman. Would you object to having the letter and the
subpena made a part of the record ?
Mr. Rauh. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you want to surrender them for that purpose?
Mr. Rauh. Certainly.
The Chairman. All right. Then, Senator Curtis, this wouldn't be
evidence unless Mr. Rauh is sworn, unless you agree that these are the
documents. The Chair will so state and then if anyone wants it testi-
fied to, that can be done.
As a matter of evidence, it should be sworn to. Will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Sen-
ate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Rauh. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH L. EATJH, JR.
The Chairman. Mr. Rauh, did you receive a letter, together with
a subpena duces tecum, unsigned, from the chairman of this commit-
tee recently regarding the production of certain records in connection
witli these hearings that had been scheduled or were tentatively under
consideration by the committee at that time ?
Mr. Rauh. I did, sir.
The Chairman. All right; have you produced the original letter
that you received from the chairman, together with the unsigned
subpena duces tecum that was attached and enclosed in the letter?
Mr. Rauh. I have, sir.
The Chairman. Are they now in the hands of Senator Curtis!
Mr. Rauh. They are.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibit No. 16, the letter as 16
and the subpena as 16-A. All right. Now we have them in the record.
The first subpena, I will make these 16-A and 16-B, and the first
subpena may be made exhibit No. 16, if you find it.
(Subpenas referred to were marked "Exhibits 16, 16-A, and 16-B"
for reference and will be found in the appendix on pp. 20410-20412.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19975
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD T. GOSSER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH L. RAUH, JR., LOWELL GOERLICH, AND FRANCIS RENO—
Resumed
Senator Curtis. I have a couple of questions about the subpena.
Mr. Grosser, you were required to produce all records and receipts
and disbursements of any and all flower funds, including bank deposit
slips, bank statements, receipts, names of sources, contributors and the
amounts contributed by each, canceled checks, journals, ledgers, books
of original entry, memos, coiTespondence, and all other papers and
documents pertaining to any and all flower funds under your con-
trol or jurisdiction from the years 1940 to date, inclusive.
Have you produced those ?
Mr. GossER. Well, the answer to that. Senator, is I never received
such a subpena as you are now reading from.
Mr. Rauh. I can explain it.
Senator Curtis. Then the other one covers —
and retained copies of all Federal income tax returns, forms 1040 for the years
1945 to 1958.
Haveyou produced those ?
Mr. Gosser. I have never received what you are reading.
Senator Curtis (reading) :
And retained copies of all partnership and corporate Federal income tax returns
of Colonial Hardware, 1945 to 1952.
Have you produced those ?
Mr. Gosser. I can only say that I have never received what you are
reading from.
Senator Curtis. Your attorney has testified that he received this
letter, and this subpena. It is true the subpena is not signed. For the
information of the committee, I might read what the letter says:
Dear Mr. Rauh : "With further reference to matters discussed in a telephone
conversation this afternoon, I enclose the original three unsigned subpenas which
I directed be prepared for Mr. William Bolman, Mr. Richard T. Gosser, and a
subpena duces tecum for Mr. Gosser as vice president of the UAW. When
these were sent over for my signature, Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell of the staff re-
minded me that there had been an understanding that you, as attorney for the
union, and the union would provide any witnesses among union officials and
representatives and produce any documents that we desired upon request without
a subpena.
These unsigned subpenas, therefore, will serve as committee requests to you
for the presence of the witnesses named, and the production of the documents
described in said unsigned subpena duces tecum. The documents are to be pro-
duced at your earliest convenience, and the presence of the witnesses is called for
July 27.
If we find that it is desirable to postpone the hearing of witnesses until a few
days later, we will endeavor to advise you in time so that you may be notified
and governed accordingly.
Please acknowledge, and thank you for your cooperation.
Sincerely yours,
John L. McClellan-
That was the subpena duces tecum part which I read.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Rauh, the Chair wants to know why
this witness hasn't been notified to produce those records.
Mr. Rauh. May I please borrow the document, sir ?
(The document was handed to Mr. Rauh.)
19976 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kauh. On receipt of this letter from the chairman, I contacted
Mr. Goerlich, who is familiar with these matters, and went over this
entire list with him.
The Chairman. Wlioisthat?
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Goerlich. I went over the entire list with him.
Mr. Goerlich discussed the items and not the documents, but the items,
with Mr. Gosser to find out which ones existed.
The flower fund documents existed, and I personally told Mr.
O'Donnell that they were available in the Toledo office. I explained
to Mr. O'Donnell that there were no documents required under this
subpena, because the subpena calls for "flower fund documents under
your control and/or jurisdiction."
There were no flower fmid documents under Mr. Gosser's control
and jurisdiction. But in order to make the matter simpler for the
investigation, we said that there are some flower fund documents in
Toledo, and they are at such-and-such an address, and if the committee
would like to see them, they are there.
Subsequently, if the chairman will remember, I reported to the
chairman that Mr. Manuel had asked me to bring these flower fund
documents down here. I had said that it was my general understand-
ing that the committee looked at things in the offices where they were
first.
You asked me to find out if they were bulky. I found out that they
weren't bulky and had them brought down, and about 2 :30 yester-
day I handed them, I believe, to Mr. O'Donnell, and they are now
in the possession of this committee.
Senator Curtis. What years were they for ?
The Chairman. Let me see that subpena.
Mr. Rauh. I have it here. I needed it to speak from.
The Chairman. I think that I have something here that will indi-
cate the same as the subpena. You may look at the subpena while I
find a copy of it here.
Mr. Rauh. Now, with respect to the second item, which was the
retained copies of all Federal income tax returns, form 1040 for the
years 1945 to 1958, Mr. Goerlich inquired of Mr. Gosser about these
and found out that only the most recent were available, and so I
suggested to Mr. O'Donnell that it would be simpler to get the whole
batch from the Bureau, and I understand that the income tax returns
are here and are available.
The Chairman. Just one moment. Let us clear that.
Are all of the Gosser income tax returns here?
Mr. O'Donnell. I think Mr. Manuel has them.
Mr. Manuel. I think I have examined all but one, or rather, I have
examined copies of them.
The Chairman. Now, are there any of those in issue here, or con-
troversy now ?
Mr. Manuel. We cannot photostat the originals, and we have to
copy the information from them.
The Chairman. We all have to do that. I am talking about the
returns.
Senator Curtis. If there is no dispute as to the figures, that is all
right.
Mr. Manuel. I took these.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19977
Mr. Kennedy. If he doesn't believe what the investigator found
out for him, all he has to do is go down to the Internal Revenue Serv-
ice and examine them for himself.
The Chairman. Did you get all of the returns now that are called
for by this subpena that you wanted? Do you have all of the
information ?
Mr. Manuel. I don't know until I see the retained copies, to see if
they compare with it.
The Chairman. Do you want to check with another member of the
staff?
Mr. Manuel. No, just check the retained copies.
Mr. Kennedy. Why don't you go to the Internal Revenue Service ?
The Chairman. Aren't they available to you, the originals?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, they are.
The Chairman. What I am trying to get at, at the moment, we can
argue about whether they are accurate or not later, but I am trying
to get at whether this subpena has been complied with sufficiently to
give you what you want regarding income tax returns.
Mr. Manuel. If they have recent returns, we would like to have
those, if they have recent returns.
The Chairman. Have you brought your original returns ?
Mr. Rauh. No, and I will explain why. I told Mr. O'Donnell ■
The Chairman. Now here is what I w^ant to get straight. You had
some kind of an arrangement with the staff here in the beginning
that you would supply any witness or any docmiient at any time that
the committee wanted it.
Mr. Rauh. That is right.
The Chairman. Now, when it was called to my attention, when I
started to issue this subpena, I tried to honor that understanding by
simply calling you and then writing this letter and giving you the
subpena as it would have been issued, or as it would have been signed,
with the understanding that you were to comply as if the subpena
had been served.
Mr. Rauh. That is right.
The Chairman. Is that correct ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, I want to find out about these records. I
wanted to inquire if now you are satisfied, if you have all you want
insofar as the income tax returns are concerned.
Mr. Manuel. I want retained copies of the originals if they have
them, sir.
The Chairman. I will get those for you, now. What is the differ-
ence between those and the copies ?
Mr. Manuel. That is all right ; it is the same thing.
Mr. Kennedy. I don't understand that.
The Chairman. Now, what is the difference between the original
and a copy on file down here ?
Mr. Manuel. We don't have the originals, and w^e cannot bring the
originals over, and we are not allowed to photostat them. The origi-
nals are in the Internal Revenue.
The Chairman. You are not allowed to photostat those ?
Mr. Manuel. No.
The Chairman. What you want is the copies that he retained, so
that you can photostat them ?
19978 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Manuel, No; just to refer to them, and I don't even want to
photostat them, but just refer to them.
The Chairman. You can see these over here. If there is any real
reason now, I am trying to find out. I don't want to deny you any-
thing that you are entitled to, but if it is just a difference between
looking at the original file down here and a copy that he retained, I
don't see what there is to that.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest at least for the mo-
ment we can pass that, and if we run into a problem that there is some-
thing we cannot proceed without having, we can do that.
The Chairman. Now, as we go along here, maybe the Chair does
wrong when he tries, but if people say, "I will comply," I try to grant
that. I can just refuse everything and issue subpenas if I have to do
it that way, and I didn't want to have to do it that way if there was
going to be compliance.
As we go along with this subpena now, there are several items in
here. I want to see what has been met and what has not been met and
what we are going to do about it. For the present, then, you are sat-
isfied with the income tax returns subject, for the moment at least;
you are satisfied about that, to pass it ?
Senator Curtis. We are willing to pass it, and now that is about
individual income tax. Does the subpena require any income taxes
on the Colonial Hardware ?
Mr. Rauh. I was coming to that, and I had not finished.
The Chairman. We are trying to take one at a time. What about
that?
Mr. Rauh. If I may summarize up to the moment, the first item
was the flower fund, and the subpena called for no documents, since
there were none under Mr. Gosser's jurisdiction or control, and never-
theless, we explained where they were, in the whole area, and brought
them in.
The Chairman. That is the flower fund documents, now ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes ; secondly, as to the income tax
The Chairman. Just a moment now. You are contending that there
were no documents of the flower fund under Gosser's jurisdiction?
Mr. Rauh. And control ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Either jurisdiction or control ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes, sir ; and I explained this to Mr. O'Donnell, but I
said, "To be helpful we have some in Toledo, and you can have them."
The Chairman. You have to explain to all of us here now. So in
the beginning you state that none of the flower- fund documents were
imder the control or jurisdiction of Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Rauh. Precisely.
The Chairman. But you did locate them, and whatever jurisdiction
they were under, you have produced what you say are all that have
been made available to you, at least as attorney ?
Mr. Rauh. They are all that are available, because we have checked.
The Chairman. Well, according to your check, they are all that
are available?
Mr. Rauh. You now have, sir.
The Chairman. And they are in the custody of whom ?
Mr. Rauh. I turned them over about 2 :30 to Mr. O'DonneU.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19979
The Chairman. I know. Tliey are in the custody of the committee
now, what you turned over, but I am talking about whose custody
were they in when you procured them ?
j\Ir, Rauii. They were under the direction and control of the re-
gional director, Mr. Ballard. Who in his office would have them
physically, I can't say, but he is the head of the office.
The Chairjniax. He is the one that is responsible for them ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And jou got from him all that was available and
could be produced that this subpena called for ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Now, may I inquire of Mr. Gosser, are you stating
that during the period of time requested in the subpena, you have had
no flower funds under your jurisdiction and control? Is that your
testimony ?
Mr. Goerlich. Just to get back to those dates, sir
The Chairman. Read the subpena and see what it called for.
Mr. Goerlich. There is a date on the flower fund.
The Chairman. From the period 1943 to date, and Mr. Gosser,
the question is, Did you have any of these flower-fund records in your
control during that period ? From that time up to now ?
Mr. Gosser. Well, Senator, I think I would have to answer you in
this regard. There isn't any question as to whether I had control over
the flower fmid in region 2-B in the year of 1943-47, because that is
the tenure of my office as regional director. Back in 1949 or 1950, and
I am not sure exactly the year, when the employers and the news-
papers and everybody decided to have a 2-year fight with me, the
Treasury Department came in and the girls in the office, not me, I
would not see why there would be a great deal of records kept of the
flower fund, but tlie girls that kept an itemized count of everything,
they were turned over to the Treasury Department, and I think tliat
he had them for about 6 months. At that point or so, they returned
them to the office, and I tried very hard then, and I hope today I ex-
press myself more clearly, that I had nothing to do with either keep-
ing the books and I had no desire for the books to be kept, but the
Treasury Department checked them thoroughly, and they raised one
question. It was about a $100 check given to me that I explained
was given to a brother by the name of Brother Kitzman during his
illness. That is tlie last I had anything to do with anything.
Senator Curtis. That is about when ?
Mr. Gosser. That is the last I had anything to do with any of
those books whatsoever, and I gave them all to Mr. Ballard, and I
said, "They are your baby."
Senator Curtis. From the date that you referred to, which I am
not sure of, you have had nothing to do with any flower fund.
Mr. Gosser. Should I say that I had a drink ojff of it ? I partici-
pated in the conventions ?
The Chairman. The Chair would construe that question to mean if
you had any authority or official duty connected with the fund what-
soever, or any responsibility for it.
Mr. Gosser. Of collecting, or writing checks or nothing.
The Chairman. Or disbursing the money from it.
Mr. Gosser. No.
19980 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Now, has any part of those fluids regardless of the
name of the individual who is handling it, been sent up to your office?
Mr. GoERLiCH. May I inquire whether Mr. Gosser may make hig
opening statement sometime before he goes into this?
The Chairman. I am going to let him make his opening statement,
but we want to get this subpena straightened out. Or do you want to
let the man make his opening statement first ?
Senator Curtis. Have we covered everything in the subpena ?
Mr. Kauh. I would like to do it.
The Chairman. I am willing to do it either way, and I did want to
accord him the privilege we accord all witnesses to make an opening
statement, but I thought the Senator started off by making some inter-
rogation here about the subpena. The suggestion is now, and you seem
to be willing that we determine about the compliance with the sub-
pena before we receive his opening statement.
Mr. Rauh. I want to make it clear that we have complied. On the
flower fund, we have completed the flower fund now. There were
none under our jurisdiction.
The Chairman. The subpena also called for Mr. Ballard, under
the jurisdiction. There is another subpena for him ?
Mr. Rauh. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. That was a memorandum request that we trans-
mitted to you covering the flower fund and the custodian.
The Chairman. This is August 7 that I got this memorandum, that
is when it is dated.
Mr. Rauh. This is one back with your letter of July 16.
The Chairman. On that date, Mr. Ballard was not requested ; is that
correct?
Mr. Rauh. That is correct.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Rauh. Then on the mcome-tax return, we said that there were
only a few, and that it would be better to get them all, and Mr. O'Don-
nell infoiTned me that they had them all, and so I assumed that you
were satisfied since you had them all.
The Chairman. Now, we will hold that in abeyance for the moment.
Mr. Rauh. The fmal item was —
and retained copies of all partnership and corporate Federal income-tax returns
of Colonial Hardware from 1945 to 1952.
Mr. Goerlich inquired of Mr. Gosser if he had any of these,
and Mr. Gosser told Mr. Goerlich that there were no such documents
in his possession, and he did not know whether any existed, but he did
not have any, and I so reported to Mr. O'Donnell, and he so, I believe,
informed Mr. Manuel.
The Chairman. Now, then. Senator Curtis, you may interrogate
Mr. Gosser regarding the Colonial Hardware documents, and get that
settled.
Senator Curtis. If they say they don't have them, I guess that is
the end of it.
The Chairman. I am trying to get these one at a time.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Rauh, you received a subsequent communica-
tion from the chairman, did you not, that he wanted the custodian of
the flower- fund records brought in here ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19981
Mr. Rauh. It was not quite that. The chairman said to me, and I
am trying to be accurate, as this was a conversation you and I had
hist Friday, in which you said that Senator Curtis had asked for cer-
tain material, and I said it was out in Toledo, and we had offered to
let them see it, and you said, "Find out if it is bulky." I said, "I will
try to find out if it is bulky." I found out it was not bulky, and I had
it brought right in, and I gave it to you.
I don't believe at any time you asked me to produce anybody. My
recollection of last Friday was that you asked me a question : "Is it
bulky," and I got the answer, but I got the material, too. We found
out it was not.
The Chairman. The only thing I wanted to produce is this : Some-
times you subpena the records of the union, and you take a truck maybe
to bring them all in here. I just did not want a situation like that.
Now, what you have produced here is nothing in the world but a
clieckbook and some monthly files for the 5 or 6 months of this
year. So far as records are concerned, of course, it is practically
nothing.
Mr. Eauh. It is all there is.
The Chairman. You say that this is all there is ?
Mr. Rauh. And Mr. Ballard, if here, will so testify.
The Chairman. Mr. Ballard is the custodian of them, and he is
here ?
Mr. Ratjh. No, he is not here, sir.
Mr. Grosser. He is in Fancy Farms, Ky., at his family reunion.
Mr. Rauh. I did not understand there was a request for Mr.
Ballard.
The Chairman. Do you want to have him come at once, or do you
want a subpena ?
Mr. Rauh. He will come.
The Chairman. Get a wire off to him and ask him.
Senator Curtis. Yes.
The Chairman. Get a wire to him. I thought he w^ould be here,
whoever had custody of these records.
Mr. Rauh. There was no request, sir.
The Chairman. Maybe I did not request it so specifically, and I am
not going to sit here and say I did. I work under a very difficult situa-
tion, as everyone knows, but I certainly expected the records to be
here, and someone to testify to them. "We can't cross-examine Mr.
Gosser here about records that are not under his control or possession,
he says.
Mr. Rauh. We have said many times
The Chairman. Here are some meager records produced here of
this flower fund, just for the 6 or 7 months of this year. There is no
one here to testify that that is all of the records.
Mr. Rauh. Well, he is on a farm someplace, but we will send a
runner to try to find him, sir.
The Chairman. Get him in here tomorrow.
Mr. Rauh. But all I am saying is that we will get him if it is feasi-
ble. We have never liad a request for him. These are all of the
records that are available. But if you want to call a fellow off a farm
somewhere
The Chairman. What happened to them ? I am sure there will be
questions about these records, and why they are not kept, and the
19982 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
sources of the income, and somebody can tell us the truth about the
facts. I don't loiow who it is.
Mr. Ratih. ^Ir. Gosser has some information about it, and he would
be ^lad to give it. That is, such information as he has.
The Chairman. Now, I want him here. I honored this agreement,
and we all work cooperatively, and I don't want to be put in a hole
here because I do it.
Mr. Rauh. Well, we will do our best. He is on a farm wliere some-
body is going to have to go to chase him up by automobile.
The Chairman. We will proceed.
Senator Kennedy. May I just ask Mr. Manuel, did you know that
Mr. Ballard was in charge of these records ?
Mr. Manuel. I was told by Mr. Rauh that he was.
Senator Kennedy. What date was that ?
Mr. Manuel. I don't have the date, and I think I have some notes
on my desk which indicate it, and Mr. Rauh might have some.
Mr. Rauh. It was 2 or 3 weeks ago.
Senator Kennedy. Wliy didn't we get him in then ?
Mr. Manuel. It was a date, Mr. O'Donnell sent me a memo.
Senator I^nnedy. It was the 21st of July, and I have the memo
here.
Mr. Manuel. There was a subsequent memo.
Senator Ivennedy. It says :
The flower fund is under the control of Mr. Ballard, in the Toledo office of
UAW and he is available to the committee at their offices.
Now, it seems that when the thing came in the 21st of July, you
ought to have subpenaed Ballard then.
Senator Curtis. We were relying on the promise that all of these
things would be brought in.
The Chairman. The first request apparently I got about Mr. Bal-
lard then, if he is not on that subpena, was in a memorandum here of
August 7, in which it requested all of the flower- fund records under the
control or jurisdiction of Richard T. Gosser and/or the regional direc-
tor, Charles Ballard. Now, that is the first I received that came to my
attention about Mr. Ballard.
Senator Kennedy. Was there a request for a subpena ?
The Chairman. I did not issue the subpena. I phoned Mr. Rauh at
5 :28 that afternoon, and I asked him to check and advise me the bulk
or volume of these records, and that is a notation that I made on them.
Senator E^ennedy. That is last Friday.
The Chairman. The question was this. We run into this problem
where they say that they will make their records available. I can't
move, and I don't want to move, a great bulk of records from some-
body's site of business to here unless they are essential. Generally it
is worked out for us to go in and our investigators examine such
records as they want to see.
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Gosser informs me that he has a general knowledge
of this subject, and he would be happy to answer questions about it.
The Chairman. Let us see where we get to, and if this witness is
needed, we can procure him. Maybe the Chair is altogether at fault
about it, trying to cooperate and help everybody. Proceed.
Senator Curtis. Wliat was the question about the opening state-
ment ? Did you have an opening statement ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19983
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Have 3011 complied with rule 7, with respect to the
opening statement ?
Mr. Rauh. It was impossible to comply since we did not know when
Mr. Gosser would be called. It was not a possibility, and indeed,
sir, as late as this morning you would not tell me.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Rauh, you never asked me when Mr. Gosser
was to appear. You asked me for a list of my witnesses.
Mr. Rauh. I thought it was the same thing, and I am sorry I was
imprecise.
Senator Curtis. You can make any inquiry you want to on behalf
of your client, and you are entitled to that information.
The Chairman. Mr. Gosser, pass up your statement, and I will as-
certain whether there is any objection to its being read. If there is,
since the rule has not been complied with, we will be governed accord-
ingly. But we frequently waive the rule. Everyone here should be
entitled to know what is in it before agreeing to whether it should be
read or not.
Mr. GoERLicH. The statement is on the bottom of the exhibit. We
have extra copies.
The Chairman. I want to check the statement to see if it contains
something that would be offensive to the committee, or wholly ir-
relevant and irresponsive to this investigation.
(The documents were handed to the chairman.)
(At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
(Members present at this point were Senators McClellan, Ervin,
Kennedy, Goldwater, Mundt, and Curtis.) ^
The Chairman. In glancing through this, I see nothing wrong with
it. If anyone has any objection, as soon as you have had an op-
portunity to pass on it, we will go into it. It is a self-serving declara-
tion, but we can't deny a witness the right to say, "I am a good
fellow."
Senator Goldwater. I have no objection to it, but I don't think that
it adds or detracts anj^thing from the case, and I would suggest that
it be made a part of the record so we can go on with this. It is a reci-
tation of the accomplishments of local 12 and what they have been
able to do for the community, and I do not think anyone has any
argument with that.
The Chairman. I say it is largely ^elf -serving, but I am not going
to deny the witness the right to say, "I am a good fellow and I have
been doing a good job."
Senator Goldwater. The hour is going along, and I thought we
miffht save time if we just made it a part of the record.
The Chairman. Is there any objection on the part of anyone on
that?
Senator Curtis. May I make an inquiry or two about it? If this
is received as a part of tlie record, do you offer it under oath as to its
truth?
The Chairman. He has to do that.
Mr. Gosser. I would assume when I took the oath, I suppose every-
thing I say here is going to be the truth and nothing but the truth,
so help me God.
Senator Curtis. When was this prepared ?
19984 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. This is about the eighth edition, and they went over it
and I have changed it, and this finally came to me this morning.
Senator Curtis. It is prepared with the assistance of your counsel I
Mr. GossER. Yesterday they worked on it. I am the general author
of it, Senator, only I did not write the exact words, and I don't have
the educational background to do it.
Senator Curtis. We have no objection to its being made a part of
the record, and I would hope that Senator Goldwater's request be
granted.
The Chairman. Would you be willing to print this in the record
right now, and let you highlight it any way you desire ?
Mr. Gosser. Following Senator Goldwater's suggestion, I don't
have any great desire to read it. I just hope that each Senator takes
the time to read this, and I would like to just say one other thing.
The Chairman. Just one moment. Then, with your permission
Mr. Gosser. Could I make one statement first ?
The Chairman. A Senator can object, because it does not comply
with the rules. Now, we are willing to make some concession here
to let you get this in the record, and I hope you will make a conces-
sion that you will let it be printed in the record and not insist on
reading it, and I will give you an opportunity to highlight it and let
you make your statement.
Mr. Gosser. I said I would subscribe to that suggestion.
The Chairman. The statement will be printed in the record at this
point, as part of the sworn testimony of the witness, Mr. Gosser. Is
there objection ? The Chair hears none, and it is so ordered.
(The statement referred to follows :)
Gentlemen, I am here under subpena in connection with your investigation by
some of your committee, its investigators, and others about myself, the steward-
ship of my office and of Local 12, UAW, in Toledo.
I have been an international vice president of the UAW for 12 years and have
been active in the UAW for over 25 years. I helped build and develop local 12
and am pround of the good it has done in elevating the standards of workers in
the community, in building a stronger, more progressive Toledo, and in helping
shape and build our great international union.
By now, for a labor leader to be summoned to appear before this committee for
any reason, reflections immediately are cast upon his integrity. In my case, my
appearance here naturally reflects upon the membership and the integrity of the
operation of local 12.
Therefore I, believe I should give you some information about the operation
and accomplishments of local 12 which I am certain your investigators did not
bother to look into on their recent visits to Toledo.
Local 12 had its origin in August 1934, when it was issued charter 18-384 by
the American Federation of Labor. At the time, I was a foreman of electricians
in Willys-Overland, now Willys Motors, Inc. I helped pass the hat to raise money
to get the charter. Because of my activities in behalf of the union, I was demoted
to an electrician and later discharged. When the CIO was organized and the
United Auto Workers of America founded, our union in Toledo was among the
first to be chartered. The UAW charter for local 12 was issued January 1, 1936.
Local 12 is an amalgamated union with members in 78 plants. Units range
in size from 5 members at Darling, Inc., and 14 at Hekman's to 4,600 at Willys
Motors. It's a democratic organization of workers. Its ofllcers stand for elec-
tion by secret ballot every 2 years. No contract can be signed until it is ratified
by the membership.
Financial reports are mimeographed monthly, distributed at monthly meetings
of the local, sent out to unit officers, and copies are available to anyone at the
local headquarters. The reports also are printed, in condensed form, monthly in
the local's newspaper, the Union Journal.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19985
Local 12 is among the larger local unions in the UAW and one of the largest
in the State of Ohio. Because of its strength and solidarity, it has served as a
rallying point for all unions in Toledo. Because of this, it has also become the
chief target of those antilabor elements who would destroy the union movement
in their selfish greed to obtain more and bigger profits from the sweat and toil
of their members. These selfish interests were taking advantage of some former
local 12 oflScials who were disgruntled and full of hate because their ambition
to obtain or retain oflfice was frustrated by the democratic will of the local 12
membership.
Let us take a look at the good local 12 has done for its membership and the
community since its founding. AVe have prepared an exhibit which we hoi)e you
gentlemen will take the time to examine. I would like to touch on some of these
achievements briefly. I think it is important to say this, because I am sure your
investigators did not bother to check the overall picture or examine the achieve-
ments.
Local 12 has through the years fought the good fight to obtain the benefits its
members now enjoy. To gain such a simple but basic right as union recognition,
some of its members were shot down by the National Guard in the Auto-Lite
struggle of 1934. The La FoUette committee records are studded with case
histories of Auto-Lite and other companies buying tear gas and arms and
employing spies and Piukerton detectives against its workers. I recall these
things because it is important to know what local 12 has to go through to
understand and appreciate its great achievements.
When local 12 was first organized, wages of workers averaged 35 to 70 cents
and hour. Few of the workers owned automobiles and fewer still owned houses.
Although bus fares were about 5 cents, many workers walked to and from their
jobs because even this was more than they could afford.
Now the majority of our UAW members in local 12 own not only automobiles,
but also their own homes. Through the years wages have been brought up to
an average of $2.50 an hour. Our workers through their collective bargaining
strength have gained seniority protection, are protected by grievance pro-
cedures, and enjoy such benefits previously denied them by their employers as
paid holidays and vacation, insurance and hospital-surgical protection, pensions,
and supplemental unemployment benefits.
I regret to say that some of our employers with whom we hold contracts have
never become reconciled to these gains. They would like to narrow and take away
many of these benefits. To do so they would have to destroy our union. Investi-
gations by grand juries and by congressional committees which look not into
the full picture but give the public a distorted view supply these antiunion ele-
ments ammunition to gain their selfish ends.
You may be interested to know that as of the end of July 1959, local 12 had
3,182 of its members on retirement. Before our union was organized these mem-
bers would never have been allowed to finish out their productive years. By
their middle forties they would have been worn out and cast aside. Included
in this 3,182 total are 229 retirees in our area pension plan, most of whom are
local 12 members.
I mention this area pension plan for a reason. This is the plan which enables
pensions to be paid in our smaller plans by lumping these smaller plants to-
gether and spreading the risk and lowering the cost to the individual employers.
Because of our fight for this plan in 1949 to 1951, my character was attacked
by a Toledo newspaper and some selfish employers on the grounds I was trying to
wreck the economy of Toledo and destroy the community. Much of the deroga-
tory material you have in your files stems from this struggle. Some of the
witnesses you have summoned split with the local during this fight for pensions
in the smaller plants. Their bitterness has continued and your committee is
now offering them a forum to vent their spite. Today the area pension plan
has more than .$1 million in its fund and none of the employers who belong to it
have been bankrupted. Instead it has made the economy of our community
stronger. Even the newspaper in question now says no good can come from
raking over old coals.
I want to touch briefly on a few other achievements of local 12. We are
proud of them and believe them to be unrivaled. They give the lie to charges of
corruption or malpractice in local 12.
For one local 12 operates a summer camp in Sand Lake, Mich., for children,
I doubt if any local union in America, UAW or otherwise, duplicates this. I
doubt that even an international union can boast of such a facility to give the
benefits of camping to children of workers and those who are underprivileged.
19986 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
This camp with 28 acres and worth, conservatively, in the neighborhood of
$400,000, accommodates 2,250 children a year. Since its inception in 1947 it has
given vacations to about some 18,000 children, the vast majority of whom would
never have been afforded such an opportunity. The fee until this year was $15
a week and is now $20 a week. At that many children who go there can't even
afford that and are sent free by our UAW charity funds and by sponsorship of
our women's guild of local 12 summer camp.
The largest Christmas party put on in Toledo is sponsored by local 12. It
rents the sports arena, the largest indoor hall in the area, and the local plays
host to some 9,000 children. The 22d such annual affair will come up next
December. At these parties local 12 supplies entertainment and presents toys
and gifts, candy and fruit. The money from this comes out of a special fund
which is built up by a 5-cent allocation from the monthly dues of members.
Another facility available to local 12 and other union members is our Willys
unit diagnostic clinic. I am proud of the part I played in conceiving and founding
this clinic. Willys members unselfishly voted to use a retroactive pay raise to
buy the land, build the building, and equip it. In lieu of a pay raise they have
set aside a nickel an hour to operate it and pay the doctors and staff. Since it
opened its doors in July 1955, 16,500 persons have used its facilities.
The clinic offers only physical examinations and X-ray and laboratory work
dealing only in preventive medicine. A few years ago members in Willys unit
offered the clinic's facilities to all union members in the Toledo area. As a
result it now has some 50 to 60 unions affiliated with it with a total membership
of moi-e than 150,000 including wives and children who can avail themselves of
the clinic's facilities. The cost to Willys unit members and retirees is free. All
others pay about 60 percent of the charge which would be assessed in other such
facilities in the Toledo area. Retirees are charged only 20 percent. The facilities
also now are open to the general public.
To keep its members informed of local 12 and labor activities, local 12 also
publishes a weekly 8-page newspaper. Its circulation is about 80,000. About
a dozen other local unions in Toledo subscribe, including all the printing unions,
the phone workers, oil workers, and retail clerks, among others.
In 1957 this newspaper was acclaimed the best labor publication in the country,
winning 9 prizes, including the grand award for editorial excellence, technical
superiority, and for its writing and editing. The judges were members of the
faculty of the School of Journalism of Columbia University.
The Toledo Blade which so bitterly attacked local 12 and its officers including
me in our fight for our area pension plan wrote an editorial in praise of our
union journal. After noting that the judges said that the journal's prize win-
ning editorial was a "calm, reasoned approach to and appraisal of a serious
situation written with respect for its readers' intelligence and sense of respon-
sibility," went on to say in its editorial :
"Any kind of newspaper which tries to serve its readers in that spirit is striving
to maintain the highest standards of journalism, and the success of the Toledo
Union Journal in meeting them has brought distinction to this community."
This newspaper, I might add, prints the local 12 financial report each month
after it comes out. In this International Labor Press Association competition
it also has twice won the community award for promoting work beneficial to
the entire area — not just union members. In 1956 the Journal wrote a series
promoting Toledo industries and the products they make to give a greater appre-
ciation and promote sales, when possible, of these Toledo-made goods. In 1957
It won the award for sponsoring collection of Ohio sales tax stamps. Proceeds
of these stamps when redeemed by the State were used to send needy and
underprivileged children free of charge to our local 12 camp.
I could go on at length with what local 12 has done for the community. But
let me just add a few more comments on the role we play in the community. I
am proud to say I was a founder and have served continuously on our famed
Toledo-Labor-Management-Citizens Committee which seeks to promote labor-
management relations in the community and which has been credited with con-
siderable success in this area. It has brought adult thinking and responsibility
to the community to the field of labor-management relations.
Labor helped found the Toledo Industrial Development Committee to attract
new industry and create jobs. I have been a member of this organization which
has brought in some 24 plants and created 15,000 new jobs for our workers. Be-
cause of our efforts to promote peaceful labor-management relations and attract
new industry, several of our Toledo plants have expanded. These companies in-
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19987
elude the Spicer Division of Dana Corp., Surface Combustion, Dura Corp., all
of which have credited our union with demonstrating the cooperative attitude
which made their expansion possible. Other plants, namely Willys Motors
and Electric Auto-Lite, to name a few, are in business in Toledo today for the
same reason.
We have recognized that our employees must remain in a competitive position
in order for us to prosper. When the management laid its cards on the table, we
have not hestitated to lay out the facts for our members and to recommend
contract modifications for whatever period necessary to restore the economic
stability of the company involved.
We are proud that this maturity has salvaged jobs for our members and our
community even though some people may attempt to distort or misinterpret our
intentions, particularly when not fully reported as is common in an investiga-
tion such as yours.
Again, I am one of the nine members of our Toledo-Lucas County Port Author-
ity and the only one named by both the city of Toledo and the county. I have
been chosen to serve in these roles of civic responsibility in recognition of the
achievements of local 12. Yet my being summoned before your committee, my
being investigated on baseless grounds by the New York grand jury can only
serve to besmirch my reputation and blacken my character in the eyes of union
members and the public alike.
I may point out that a recent article in Newsweek concerning your present
inquiry into local 12's affairs is a prime example of the type of mud slinging
which often results. I would like to recommend to you an article in the Augiist
8, 1959, Business Week as an example of a comprehensive report on what our
union really does.
At this point, since I have read in newspaper stories implications that there
is something evil in the UAW flower funds, I would like to point out precisely
what these funds are, how they started, and the purpose they serve.
Flower funds, or caucus funds, are nothing more than campaign funds, col-
lected voluntarily by candidates for elective office in our union. There are as
many caucus or flower funds as there are candidates for office, local or inter-
national.
These flower funds were started because the Communists — whom we defeated
in a long and bitter struggle within our union — had huge flower funds. It Was
clearly necessary that we raise enough moneys if we were to fight and defeat
them. These moneys were used— and still are used — for general campaign
purposes, rental of halls, campaign literature, and the like.
The UAW always has repudiated the idea that money to conduct a political
campaign in our union should be taken from treasury funds of the union. Rather,
we believe, such funds should be collected from those who support candidates
for office.
Thus, far from being wrong or undesirable, as has been implied, I know — as
does anyone who is aware of these funds and their purpose — that the flower fund
principle is the only moral and decent method of financing a political campaign
in an organization such as ours.
I think it should be said, too, that although your committee was set up to
investigate abuses by both labor and management, labor has borne the brunt
of your investigations. The headlines that have resulted have failed to convey
to the people that where there has been wrongdoing, in nearly all of the cases
management is equally guilty.
I want to say finally that I have dedicated more than 25 years of my life to
the best of my ability to correct inhumane abuses and exploitations of the labor-
ing men and women in our community. Being attacked is not new to me, local
12, or the UAW. I shall continue to serve the best interests of working people
and the total community to the best of my ability, so long as I am able, regard-
less of attacks by newspapers, employers, or politicians.
The Chairman. You can now highlight your statement.
Mr. GossER. I think, gentlemen, the thing that I wanted to say
mostly was the fact that in the United States of America there is some-
where over 100 international unions, which have on a total average
more than 1,000 locals, so I would be safe in saying that there must
be beyond 100,000 locals in the AFL-CIO in the United States of
36751— «0—pt. 5:
19988 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
America. I would be obliged to any Senator here that would bring
me any information that would show me any one of these 100,000
locals doing more for the dues paying membership in the community
than what this local does, and that is why I can't understand why
the local itself is under attack.
The CHAiRMAisr. I don't know that the local is under attack as such.
Mr. GossER. Every time you bandy its name in the paper, I would
think it is under attack.
The Chairman. You may have that impression, and I am not say-
ing it isn't at the moment.
Mr. GossER. My only thing was that if some Senator here ever finds
out where a local is doing more than we are for our membership for
their dues dollar, I woulcl be more than glad to hear it, because I hap-
pen to come from this local, and I am very proud of it. I have built
it from nothing, and I am very proud of it.
The Chairman. All right. Is there anything further you wish to
say before you are interrogated ?
Mr. GossER. No ; just go right ahead.
The Chairman. All right. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Gosser, when did you become president of
local 12?
Mr. GossER. I think in the year 1937. I want to say now, I can
be off here or there, and I am not that good.
Senator Curtis. "Wliat are the duties of the president of the lo-
cal?
Mr. GossER. The duties of the president of the local, as of now, or
as of then ?
Senator Curtis. As of then, and as of now.
Mr. GossER. Well, I would not know as of now, and I am not presi-
dent now.
Senator Curtis. You don't know generally what the duties of a
president are ?
Mr. GossER. I don't know what all he does, and I know what I did
when I was president.
Senator Curtis. You are not familiar with your organizational
setup in the UAW?
Mr. GossER. I am very familiar with it.
Senator Curtis, Generally what are the duties of the president of
the local?
Mr, GossER. Well, they vary. They vary on the size of it.
Senator Curtis. Well, local 12 ?
Mr. Gosser. Why don't we discuss what the duties were when I
was president of local 12, and then if you want to take it further
than that, I will be glad to try to help you take it further than
that.
Senator Curtis. Well, what were they ?
Mr, GossER. I got up in the morning and I went down to the local,
and usually there was some — you are now back in 1937, and we were
fighting with the State police, and the National Guards, and paid
finks, and Pinkerton detectives and everybody else, and so, there-
fore, you usually ran into a crisis, and so you went out where the
crisis was, and you got somewhere near that, and then you finally
went in and you negotiated if you could get the people to sit down at
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19989
the table with you, you negotiated an. agreement, and the work stop-
page stopped, and then you told the fellows that were organizers
what other plants to organize, and then maybe around 10 or 11 o'clock
that night you wrote on your mail to your secretary how to send it
out, and that is what you did in 1937.
Senator Curtis. As president of the local, you would be presiding
officer, would you not ?
Mr. GossER, Oh, surely.
Senator Curtis. Your signature would be required for the con-
veyance of property, that would be one of your duties, would it
not?
Mr. GossER. I would wonder if the trustees in local 12 wasn't a
necessity tliere.
Senator Curtis. All right. "VVlien did you become regional director
of theUAW?
Mr. GossER. I think in 1943.
(At this point Senator Church entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Did you continue on as president of the local ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. Did you continue on as president of the Auto
Workers Building Corp. ?
Mr. GossER. I believe that I did.
Senator Curtis. Was that in conformity with the constitution and
bylaws of the union ?
Mr. GossER. I believe there was some question as to whether the
president of local 12 should not have been president of the building
corporation, yes.
Senator Curtis. There was some question about that ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What was the duties of a regional director?
Mr. GossER. Well, the duties of a regional director are to see that
the constitution of the UAW is complied with, if he gets a request
from a local union for strike authorization, to see that the State and
Federal laws are complied with, to forward his information to the
international executive board of the UAW, along with his recom-
mendation as to whether there should be a strike or not, and to sit
down if there is a strike, and help try to resolve it across the confer-
ence table, and if there is a strike going on, to go out to the picket
line and help fellows along. If it is necessary to go someplace to
meet someone, to go there. Under my regime as regional director, I
served on the Labor-Management Citizens Committee which got rec-
ognition all over the country, and I think that I spent more time
settling other unions' strikes than I did my own.
Senator Curtis. Does a regional director
Mr. GossER. Do you want to hear the rest of it, or just
Senator Curtis. You were referring to what you were doing in
other disputes, and I assumed that was irrelevant to my question.
Mr. GossER. I was telling you what I did as regional director.
Senator Curtis. I did not ask you what you did, and I asked you
what the duties were.
Mr. GossER. Those were the duties.
Senator Curtis. Well, now, does a regional director have any juris-
diction over the internal affairs of a local union?
19990 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. The internal affairs?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. GossER. I did not go very far at school, and so will you tell
me what you mean by internal affairs?
Senator Curtis. I mean the election of officers, the expenditure of
money, and getting who would be employees, and officers, and does a
regional director have any authority over a local union in that regard ?
Mr. GossER. Senator Curtis, I just want to say this to you, that a
regional director would not be a regional director any more than you
would be a Senator if he was not right in the politics pitching. That
is just the plain simple fact.
Senator Curtis. Is that in conformity with the constitution and
bylaws ?
Mr. GossER. There is no constitution and bylaws on that, any more
than there is in the United States for the Democrat or Kepublican
Party, as to how they get elected. You just go about trying to sell
yourself to your constituents and getting elected.
Senator Curtis. There is nothing in the constitution or bylaws that
guarantees local autonomy to a local union ?
Mr. GossER. You did not ask me anjAthing about local autonomy.
T can assure you in northwestern Ohio, where I was regional director,,
the local miions had so much autonomy that at times I questioned
whether it was autonomy and freedom or whether it was anarchy.
That is how far they went.
Senator Curtis. Did you exercise any control over their receipts
and expenditures when you were regional director, and you were
regional director in the area, and did you exercise any control over
the receipts and expenditures made by local 12 ?
Mr. GossER, As the normal human being, now being still in an
elected office, and recognizing the fact that northwestern Ohio and
particularly local 12 is my political base in this union, I have coun-
seled with fellows continuously, and I have done everything I can to-
make this a model of which I can speak of to sell myself.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever tell them what they should do ?
Mr. GossER. We have always had a democratic vote on anything we
have ever done.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever give them any instructions about the
expenditures and receipts of local 12 after you became regional direc-
tor or vice president ?
Mr. GossER. I want to say to you that all of the time I was presi-
dent of local 12, all of the time I have been regional director, and all
of the time I have been vice president, there has never been a time
when there has been any expenditure beyond, I think they allow the
local that you are speaking of to spend $25 or $50 or something like
that — in between meetings and otherwise it has always been voted on
in a meeting.
Senator Curtis. Did you exercise authority to OK purchases of
local 12 after you became regional director or vice president?
Mr. Gosser. Tliat would be hard for me to recollect now.
Senator Curtis. You don't recall ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. Now, when did you become international vice
president ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19991
Mr. GossER. In 1947.
Senator Curtis. Who became president of local 12 after you innne-
•diately became regional director?
Mr. GossER. I think, but I am not positive, I think Melvin Scliultz.
Senator Curtis. But how long did he serve as president of the local ?
Mr. GossER. You have got me there. Tlie records would show, and
1 don't know whether he served two terms or three terms.
Senator Curtis. How long is a term ?
Mr. GossER. Well, it was first 1 year in our union, and now it is 2
years.
Senator Curtis. Now what connection
Mr. GossER. It could have been longer now, and I don't want to be
stuck on that one.
Senator Curtis. The records would show. Now what connection if
any did you have with an organization called the Will-0-Land Club,
or"Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club?
Mr. GossER. Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club was started away back
in the beginning of the union in the Willys- Overland plant, which is
now known as the Kaiser- Willys plant in Toledo, Ohio, where each
member paid $1 a week to be a member.
Senator Curtis. How many members did you have at the highest
membership ?
Mr. GossER. I think that you are asking me a question that it would
be impossible to answer. I think we strived for around 100-and-some-
odd members, but I don't know whether we had them or not.
Senator Mundt. Can you pull that sound box a little closer to you?
We are just getting about every other word.
Mr. GossER. I am very sorry.
Senator Curtis. Who were the officers of the Will-0-Land Sports-
men's Club?
Mr, GossER. At the very beginning, you mean ?
Senator Curtis. Yes, or I will say at the time of the purchase and
sale of the Sand Lake property. Who was president of the Will-0-
Land Sportsmen's Club?
]Mr. GossER. I am not sure of that, but let us say I was, I think I
was, but I am not sure of that.
Senator Curtis. I believe that you were. The records would so in-
dicate. Now did the Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club buy the Sand
Lake property ?
Mr. Gosser. I think to clear this up so it does not have to be a
question and answer point, I think that I should say that from the
dollars collected, Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club bought this location
at Sand Lake. From there they sold it to local 12 for a summer
camp, and they bought Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club in Clare,
Mich., and fi^om there they sold it to the local and every person that
was a member of this, all they ever got back was what they put in it.
If you put $285 in it, you got $285 back, and nobody ever even got
an interest off their money.
Senator Curtis. Now the Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club purchased
the Sand Lake property in about November of 1943 ?
Mr. Gosser. If you say so, I would say "Yes."
Senator Curtis. Wliat was the purchase price ?
Mr. Gosser. Well, you can refresh my memory, and whatever you
say, it seems to me it does not matter but whatever you say is all right.
19992 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Would $9,500 be coiTect?
Mr. GossER. It could be.
Senator Curtis. Now at a later time, did the Sportsmen's Club sell
the roller rink which was a part of this Sand Lake property to one
William F.Davis?
Mr. Gosser. We sold it to someone.
Senator Curtis, And the sales price was $9,000 ?
Mr. GossER. It could be.
Senator Curtis. And that was in about July of 1944 ?
Mr. GossER. If you say so.
Senator Curtis. Then in June of 1945, another parcel of the prop-
erty was again sold to Mr. Davis for $3,500, which was completed in
August of 1948. Would that be correct ?
Mr. Gosser. I would say if you say that is correct, it is correct,
Senator.
Senator Curtis. Now in other words, you paid $9,500 for it and sold
of two parcels and received $12,500 for the two parcels ; is that correct ?
Mr. Gosser. If you say so.
Senator Curtis. Now in buying it in the first instance, when the
Sportsmen's Club purchased it, was there some loans obtained from
the Willys-Overland Credit Union ?
Mr. Gosser. If they were, I don't know of them.
Senator Curtis. You didn't borrow it ?
Mr. Gosser. As an individual, I didn't make an application. It
seems to me, but I could be wrong, I thought the credit union was
started after the Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club. The club was one
of the things that help us build the union in the framework ; at that
time we were fighting Pinkerton detectives and you had to meet in the
basements. I don't say what you are saying is not true.
Senator Curtis. I am reading from the union document which says
the purchase of the property was financed by borrowing $4,000 from
the Willys- Overland Credit Union on November 26, 1944. So you
paid $9,500 and sold off two portions of it for a total of $12,500.
Then did the Sportsmen's Club, which you say had about 100 mem-
bers, and you were president, sell the remainder of the property to
the Automotive Workers Building Corp. ?
Mr. Gosser. If you say so. My point is that in the end, the union
wound up with all of it and the people that had their money invested
in it — the records of the court will prove that nobody got more than
what they put into it, and they never even got interest on their money,
and so to me the figures doesn't seem to mean anything.
Senator Curtis. They may to us. Is it true that while you were
President of tlie Sportsmen's Club, this club that had about 100 mem-
3rs, you sold to the Automotive Workers Building Coi-p. the re-
mainder of that property for $20,000 on May 20, 1947 ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, and we had a person who is qualified to go into
Federal court and testify as to the worth of that, and I think that
he gave us a statement that it was worth
Mr. GoERLicii. Mr. Manuel has the photostats of those appraisals,
and I am sure you have them.
Senator Curtis. I understand.
Mr. GoERLicii. We might have been a little bit better prepared in
the proceeding to liave all of this information for you had you met
with us and told us exactly what you wanted.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19993
Senator Curtis. I made my request for some things I wanted and
I never got them mitil the hearing started.
Mr. GoERLiCH. I handle these cases in the common pleas court, and
I am a little rusty on it too because I don't know what you want.
Senator Curtis. The record will show at a subsequent time there
was an appraisal. But the fact remains that you, as the head of a
private club, sold this property for $20,000 to the building corporation
which you were also head of. Is that correct ?
Mr. GossER. If you say so, I suppose it is.
Senator Curtis. Well, is it?
Mr. GossER. I am assmning it is. You have all of the facts here
and I have nothing.
Senator Curtis. Do you deny them ?
Mr. GossER. I don't deny them, and the point I am saying is I
agree with you. I am not denying anything, and when I get to
the point where I want to deny something you are saying, you will
hear it and understand it very clearly.
Senator Curtis. Now, who is a member of the Auto Workers Build-
ing Corp. ?
Mr. GossER. Who is a member ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. GossER. I think the bylaws stipulate that all dues-paying mem-
bers of local 12 are members of the building corporation.
Senator Curtis. In other words, the building corporation is the cor-
poration set up to hold the property of local 12 ; isn't that right ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Curtis. So the real owners of the building corporation were
the members of local 12.
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How many members does local 12 have ?
Mr. GossER. When do you speak of? When do you want me to
say?
Senator Curtis. In 1947.
Mr. GossER. Well, that would be quite impossible for me.
Senator Curtis. Well, did they have 500 members, or 1,000, or
10,000, or did they have 20,000 ?
Mr. Gosser. In 1947, do you have the figures there ? I am trying
to agree with you if you have the figure.
Senator Curtis. I don't have the figure as to the number of members.
Mr. GossER. I would say — and this is a figure that I don't want to
say later on I misstated a fact; I am guessing — but I would say it was
around, and we could get it from the international files, because we
paid per capita tax, but I would think we must have had around 18,000
or 20,000 members.
Senator Curtis. About 18,000 or 20,000 members ?
Mr. GossER. I would think that; yes. I could be wrong.^
Senator Curtis. About how many people were at the meeting when
they purchased this property ?
Mr. GossER. When they voted to purchase this property you mean ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. GossER. Well, I think you ought to say, first of all, instead of
asking me the question in that respect, I think that we should say that
there was a notice put in the paper, in advance, and there were hand-
19994 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
bills passed in all of the plants, and everybody that was a member
was entitled to come and it is like any other thing, I am sure
Senator Curtis. What was the number ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Wliat did the notices recite?
Mr. GossER. I don't have a copy of them. You have a copy of it.
Senator Curtis. Did it tell what they were going to buy and for how
much and from whom ?
Mr. GossER. I don't have that notice, and I can get it for you.
Senator Curtis. About how many members were present at the
meeting ?
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't want to quote that. I don't know. You are
asking me to go back a good many years and say how many people
were at a meeting.
Senator Curtis. How many did you have at most of your business
meetings ?
Mr. Gosser. You would love to pin me down to a figure, but you
are not going to.
Senator Curtis. You wouldn't give us an estimate ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Mundt. How many does the hall hold at your meeting?
Mr. GossER. I think that the hall that we had would have held — it
was the largest hall in the city, if I remember right. I just don't even
remember. Sometimes we used local 12 hall and sometimes we used
Scott High hall, and sometimes we used the city hall, which is a big
hall, and now they have a bigger hall, and now we use that hall some-
times, and it depends on what the occasion is, Senator.
Senator Curtis. What one were you using back in 1947?
Mr. Gosser. This particular year, now you are asking me a question
that I come unprepared to say, and I can find out where the meeting
was held and approximately how many people were there, but to say
it right now, I can't.
Senator Curtis. Well, it is an approximation, and if you could give
us the size of the hall
Mr, GossER. Usually at a local 12 meeting, at that time, I think
there was around 1,000 or 2,000 people showing up, and I think that,
but I can be wrong. But it seems to me that there were about that
many people.
Senator Curtis. We have information that the hall only held about
200 where this meeting was held on April 2, 1947, so if it was full, you
would have 2 or 3 percent of the membership.
Mr. GossER. Well, if we had it in parlor A of local 12, that would
be the smallest hall of all. Senator. I just want to tell you whoever
gave you that information doesn't know what they are talking about,
and any time you want to come to Toledo, I am sure that you will
attest to the fact it will hold around 500 people.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Gosser, what use was made of this Sand
Lake propertv after it was purchased by the building corporation in
behalf of all of the members of local 12 ? What did you tuni it into ?
Mr. GoERLicH. In that statement there was a folder.
Mr. GossER. There is a folder,
Mr. GoERLiCH. It was made into a summer camp; isn't that the
answer ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19995'
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir ; and I am sorry, you have the folders now,
Tlie Chairman. Just a moment. Are you speaking of this folder?
Mr. GossER. No, Senator, the other one. That is the green one.
That is local 12 summer cam]>, the one he is talknig about.
The Chairman. Do you wish to have this made an exhibit to your
testimony, so that it can be referred to ?
Mr.GossER. That will be very nice.
The Chairman. This will be made exhibit No. 17.
(Material referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 17" for reference
and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Goerlich. Excuse me, it was our thought that the exhibits
were attached onto the opening statement.
The Chairman. They have not been made exhibits. I will make
them exhibits if you want them exhibits, just for reference.
Mr. Goerlich. We would like to have you make them all exhibits.
The Chairman. This entire batch of pictures, pamphlets that were
submitted along with the witness' statement, may be made in bulk
exhibit No. 17. Now, then, you may proceed.
Senator Curtis. We don't know what they are, but there is no
objection to them.
Were some retirement farms also purchased ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, Senator. This was prior to when our union was
successful in getting pensions.
Senator Curtis. Now, in this retirement farm, there were improve-
ments made on those, were there not ?
Mr. GossER. Surely.
Senator Curtis. In improving this summer camp property and re-
tirement farms, where was the hardware and other supplies pur-
chased?
Mr. GossER. I would think that you would have to ask about 10 or
12 guvs, and I think the point that you are trying to get at— Was some
of it bought at Colonial Hardware ?— and the answer is "Yes," and
to what extent I don't know.
Senator Mundt. Would you not get so far from the microphone ?
Mr. GossER. I think he is making an inference that some was bought
at Colonial Hardware, and the answer to that is "Yes," but to what
extent I don't know. . ,
Senator Kennedy. Now, are you moving along from the original
questions in regard to the purchase of this, or are you coming back
to that?
Senator Curtis. I may comeback to it.
Senator Kjennedy. I wonder if I might ask one or two points of
Mr. Manuel or of you or the witness in regard to the purchase of the
Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club.
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. As I understand it, there was suggestion m the
interrogation that while this matter had been purchased for $9,000
and had been sold to the automotive workers group, building corpora-
tion, after some land had been disposed of for, I think, around $12,000,
and it had been then sold for $20,000. Is that correct ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
19996 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Kennedy. I notice that when there was an investigation of
this by the UAW back some years ago, that it was brought out that
Mr. Kay Fresse, sales manager of the Swartzbaugh Kealty Co., ap-
praised it for $34,500, and it was appraised by Milo C. Thompson, a
real estate appraiser, for $33,600.
Therefore, the finding of the UAW was that the findings of the
appraisers indicated that the Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club show
the Sand Lake property of the Automotive Workers Building Corp.
for at least $13,000 or $14,000 less than the salable value of the prop-
erty as of June of 1947.
Wliat I would like to ask is this : Have you been able to develop, Mr.
Manuel, that these assessments or appraisals were inaccurate, and
whether the price was excessive or not, or whether it was in accord-
ance with the market value at the time it was sold ?
Mr. Manuel. I would like to develop that, if I may, through Mr.
Gosser.
Senator Kennedy. You are going to come back to it ?
Mr. Manuel. It might be a good time because I do have copies of
the appraisals.
Senator Kennedy. We might as well get this question cleared up.
I would like to ask Mr. Gosser one question. Did you personally
profit from your investment ?
Mr. Gosser. Not one pemiy, and I got back exactly the money that
I put into it^and not with even interest after an 8-year investment.
But I would like to add one other question, which you raised, and the
reason for that is that this 20 acres was in swamps, and I was quite a
lot younger than I am now, and the other fellows were, and we did
a work study and we would go up there and we filled in these swamps
and put in fills and everything, and we developed this place.
Senator Kennedy. Perhaps we could develop that, if you wanted to
make a point here, whether a profit was made by this group in selling
it to a union.
Senator Curtis. I think that there are two things involved, and
one is whether or not as head of the Building Corp., which represented
all of the members, some 18,000 or 20,000, he sold from himself to him-
self, and whether that was proper.
Then there is another question, as to whether it was exorbitant in
price. But even if the price was reasonable, I don't believe that it
would be contended that it was proper procedure.
Senator Kennedy. It seems to me that the issues are : First, was the
price exorbitant based on the market price; and, secondly, did he per-
sonally profit from the deal ? That seems to me to be the two ques-
tions. I hope you are going to 2;et those answers now.
Senator Curtis. I would disagree with you. I would think that
where the head of a private club representing 100 members sells to
another organization of which he is also the head, that that is a seri-
ous question of ethics for anyone who is in that position.
Senator Kennedy. Doesn't it come down to whether the price he
sold it was excessive ; and secondly, whether he personally profited. It
seems to me that is the issue.
Senator Curtis. I don't think that is the issue at all. Someone in a
fiduciary capacity cannot do business with his principal.
The Chairman. Let us develop the facts, and we can draw our own
conclusions later.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19997
Mr. GossER. Could I brino- one point up here ?
The Chairman. What I want to do is have you tell the whole story
now — as to wliat the transaction was, and what was involved — and
we can draw our conclusions as to whether you should or sliouldn't.
Senator Mundt. Could I ask one question for clarification?
The Chairman. Did you want to ask me a question ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes. My point was, and I tliink that this is important,
that all of the people that went into WilI-0-Land went into it with a
very strong knowledge of the fact that they were going to build a
union, and eventually there wouldn't be such a things as Will-O-
Land Sportsmen's Club, and out of that would flow tlie union, because
the industrial union flows out of the city of Toledo, Ohio, and the
first industrial union strike that was ever had was had in the city of
Toledo, and the first bloodshed that was ever shed by people being
killed by National Guards was being done there, and the whole con-
cept of Will-0-Land was to do nothing but band people together, to
get them closer knitted, so that you could have, let us say for lack of
another word right now, something to attract the fellows to that, and
everybody understood Will-O-Land would be a nonexistent thing if we
ever were victorious, let us say, in our struggle against the employer
and the Pinkerton detectives and everybody else.
That is exactly what we have done, and welcome to the point, and
there is no such a thingas Will-O-Land.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Mundt. I came in a little late, and you said something about
this tract of land which seemed to be involved, and you and the other
fellow who owned it being younger then and that you went out into
the swamp and developed the place. Was this a piece of property that
you owned together with some other fellow ?
]Mr, GossER. No, this is a piece of proj^erty, and this is Sand Lake
that he is talking about, where we bought it and it was part of the
swampland.
Senator Mitndt. Did I misunderstand you when I heard you say
you and the other fellow went out ?
Mr. GossER. Myself and the other fellows, and the picture will now
show that. This is a great big playground of 15 acres, and that used
to be swamps.
Senator Mundt. I am trying to figure out whether this was a piece
of property that you and some other fellow owned.
Mr. GossER. No; this is a piece of property that Will-O-Land
owned.
Senator Mundt. Did you use the word "fellows" plural ?
Mr. GossER. Myself, and others, and I said I was younger then, and
so were the other fellows, and we went out tliere and cleared it.
Senator Mundt. I thought two of you owned a piece of property.
Mr. GossER. No ; we sometimes only worked 3 days a week.
The Chairman. How many were original owners of the property
when it was acquired ?
Mr. GossER. I think around somewhere between 60 and 80, and I
am not sure now.
The Chairman. In other words, it wasn't three or four of you got
together and conspired to handle the transaction ?
Mr. GoERLiCH. This is a nonprofit or was a nonprofit corporation,
incorporated under the laws of Ohio.
19998 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. The 60 or 80 were involved in a corporation, and
you set up a corporation.
Mr. GossER. As a nonprofit corporation.
The Chairman. And you went and bought the property.
Mr. GossER. And we incorporated in the State of Ohio, and he filed
the incorporation papers.
The Chairman. You went out there as young men and developed
it ; is that right ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. Wliile it was under a corporation that you were all
interested in?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. And you went out there and physically labored and
developed it ?
Mr. GossER. That is correct, Senator.
The Chairman. From a swamp into something much improved.
Mr. GossER. That I am very proud of.
The Chairman. Well, that is what you are testifying to ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now later you sold it. To whom did you sell it?
Mr. GossER. To local 12.
The Chairman. To the union ?
Mr. GossER. With a clear miderstanding it was for a summer camp.
The Chairman. You were the head of it and I heard you testify
that you didn't make $1 out of it, and whatever you had put into it,,
you got back.
Mr. GossER. I didn't even get anything for my labor.
The Chairman. And you didn't get interest or anything for your
labor?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. Over and above what you originally paid for it,,
and what the corporation sold it for to the union, what was the
difference between what you originally paid for it and what it sold
for to the union ?
Mr. GossER, Well, eventually, when the last parcel was bought^
which was Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club, which is near Clare,.
Mich., all the union paid for that was enough so that we each got
our invested money out of it.
The Chairman. What became of the other profits from the sale
of it?
Mr. GossER. There was never any.
The Chairman. It all went to the union ?
Mr. GossER. It just went into improving the properties.
The Chairman. Who owns the property now ?
Mr. GossER. The union.
The Chairman. Well, the union, you say the union profited by all
of this work and not you individually ; is that what you are saying ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, the corporation that originally set
it up and bought it, about 80 of you, 60 or 80 of you, you did work
on it and you undertook to develop it, and you later sold it to the
union ; is that right ?
Mr. GossER. That is correct.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 19999
The CiiAiKMAN. Did the union pay more for it than you folks had
bought it for ?
Mr. GossER. If you take the two pieces of property, the union paid
exactly what we put into it, and any other money is what was invested
in it in developing it.
The Chairman. Was there a profit ?
Mr. GossER. Positively no.
The Chairman. In other words, the union got it, althougli you
were the head of the union, and you were interested in the corpora-
tion, the union got the property, and according to your testimony,
and got the benefit of the individual work that you who constituted
the corporation had put into the property.
Mr. Gosser. That is correct.
The Chairman. And you got back and the other fellows, as you
call them, got back only the actual dollars that you had put into the
original investment.
Mr. GossER. That is correct.
The Chairman. Now, if there was any profit then, if I iinderstand
you, or any enhancement in value or benefit, then the union got it;
is that what you are saying ?
Mr. GossER. They figured two places was worth over $1 million and
the union has it all, and we have none.
The Chairman. That is what I am trying to get at. The union
profited by what you say went on.
Mr. Gosser. That is right.
The Chairman. Even if you were in a position there of confidence
on both sides.
Mr. Gosser. That is correct.
The Chairman. Did the 60 or 70 other people who went in on the
original project, and did your union generally know of your interest
in that project and was it all open and above board and everybody
knew what was happening ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, and the one thing that I know is that one per-
son was opposed to us selling it to the union, for just getting our
money back.
The Chairman. One of the original investors ?
Mr. Gosser. That is right. He is one of the witnesses that you are
going to have testify.
The Chairman. The Chair is going to have to go.
Senator Curtis. Could I just detam you 1 minute on that? I read
from the committee findings of the international executive board
action.
Senator Mtjndt. Executive board of what ?
Senator Curtis. International board of the UAW, and they in-
vestigated this.
The committee finds that a profit of $23,000 was made by the Will-0-Land
Sportsmen's Club in their investment in Sand Lalie property. This profit was
the result of the value of the property going up, the water level of the lake being
adjusted satisfactorily, and due to general inflationary rise in real estate.
KeixaT-dlpss of what it causes, there was a profit to the Sportsmen's
Club of $23,000. Heading on now :
The committee finds that although Richard T. Gosser was president of the
Automobile Workers Building Corp., and of the Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club,
20000 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Inc., at the same time while the sale of the property was transacted between
the two organizations, it did not result in Richard T. Gosser making a per-
sonal profit for himself, and did not result unfavorably to the members of the
Auto "Workers Building Corp.
Our committee believes that if this property were owned by a corporation
other than Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club, the local union would have been
forced to pay a great deal more.
Now, this investigation was made some years later.
The Chairman. Wliat committee are you speaking of ? What com-
mittee do you refer to ?
Senator Curtis. Of the international executive board.
The Chairman. Let me get this identified for my own information.
This is what committee ?
Senator Curtis. The international executive board.
The Chairman. Of the UAW?
Senator Curtis. Yes, and they investigated this.
The Chairman. About what was the date of that report? Let us
get that.
Senator Cuetis. In 1950.
The committee believes if this property were owned by a corporation other
than Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club, Inc., the local union would have been
forced to pay a great deal more for the property than what they eventually
purchased it for.
That is the end of that paragraph.
Senator Kennedy. What does that all prove ?
Senator Curtis. That proves that Mr. Gosser's statement that the
Sportsmen's Club did not make a profit is not correct. The committee
finds that a profit of $23,000 was made. Now, they go on further and
they say that if it had been purchased from somebody else, they would
have had to pay more. But you do disprove Mr. Gosser's statement
that no profit was made to the Sportsmen's Club.
Senator Ervin. Did I understand you to say that Mr. Gosser made
no personal profit ? I can't follow that.
Senator Curtis. We will raise some questions on that later. He was
one member of a club of 100 that made $23,000 by selling to himself.
The Chairman. We will go into that after lunch.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(^Vliereupon, at 12 :30 p.m. the select committee recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 p.m. the same day.)
afternoon session
The select committee reconvened at 2:10 p. m., Senator John L.
McClellan (chairman of the select committee) presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at time of reconvening:
Senators McClellan, Gold water, and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Proceed, Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Manuel has something that he wants to offer
here.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20001
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD T. GOSSER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH L. RAUH, JR., LOWELL GOERLICH, AND ERANCIS RENO—
Resumed
Mr. :Manuel. Now, Mr. Gosser, I believe you testified that it was
in 1947 that this Will-0-Lancl sold this property to the building cor-
poration. It was 1947, wasn't it?
Mr. GossER. If you say it was, that is all right.
Mr. ]\Ianuel. Were there any independent appraisals made of the
value of this property before the land was sold to the building cor-
poration ?
Mr. GossER. So far as I know as an individual, no.
Mr. INIanuel. "What do you know as a union officer ?
Mr. GossER. Well, now you are speaking of AVill-0-Land.
Mr. Manuel. You are distinguishing between your individual ca-
pacity, I presume, and that of a union official. I said, were there any
independent appraisals made of this land before your private club sold
it to the building corporation ?
Mr. GossER. Well, the point that I say is so far as I can recollect,
no. I don't see how I can give you any other answer.
Mr. Manuel. There were none ?
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't say it that way. I would say so far as I
know.
Mr. Manuel. I want to hand you what purports to be a copy of a
letter dated April 21, 1950, from you to Howard Serine. Now, Mr.
Howard Serine in 1950 was president of local 12, was he not?
Mr. GossER. Howard Serine could have been. It was Serine, Holo-
winsky, and Schultz, and I know Holowinslry is president now, but I
don't know what category they followed, and I don't know whether
Serine was before Schultz or vice versa.
Mr. Manuel. I also have here a letter dated June 25, 1959, to me
from Mr. Rauh, enclosing certain copies of appraisals, and I would
like you to examine those, and see if they are appraisals of this
property.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. Rauh. The record should show that Mr. Manuel said he was
showing Mr. Gosser a letter, but the letter has not been shown.
Mr. Manuel. I believe I had the wrong letter. I am offering your
letter now.
The Chairman. He said he had a letter, and he didn't say he was
showing it. Identify what you have shown the witness and what the
witness is supposed to be looking at now.
Mr. JManuel. Do you see, Mr. Gosser, an appraisal by Swartzbaugh
Realty Co., dated January 11, 1950 ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that a photostatic copy of that document ?
Mr. Gosser. I would assume that that is what it is. It is a cof)y,
as he says, of Swartzbaugh Realty Co.
Mr. Manuel. Do you see another appraisal there by Milo Thomp-
son, about the same date ? That would be in 1950.
Mr. Gosser. Yes ; it says as of January 7, 1950.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to make those exhibits, Mr. Chairman.
20002 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. The appraisals, photostatic copies of which have
been identified by the witness, may be made exhibit No. 18.
Mr. GossER. Senator, I would like to say at this time that to the
best of my knowledge this is the first time in my life that I ever saw
any of this.
The Chairman. Well, the question is now, are you identifying those
documents, and do you know any tiling about them ?
Mr. GossER. I don't know anything about them.
Mr. Manuel. Maybe Mr. Rauh can. He gave them to me.
Mr. GossER. As an individual, I know nothing about them.
The Chairman. It is up to you to identify them and/or not identify
ihem. You do not actually identify it as something that you know
about or you are familiar with ?
Mr. Gosser. That is correct.
The Chairman. Is your signature on it anywhere ?
Mr. Manuel. I might say, Mr. Rauh gave me those, and sent them
to me in the mail.
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Rauh has been sworn as a witness ; if you
want to interrogate him about it, you may do so.
I am not trying to be technical about it. You need to have some-
thing identified if you want it made an exhibit. The witness here was
going along and saying "yes," on the basis of your question and what
jou said, but he apparently doesn't even recognize the document.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH L. EAUH, JR.— Resumed
Mr. Manuel. Could you identify those, Mr. Rauh ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes. Sometime in June you asked me for a considerable
amount of material, and I provided all that was available. I had
known of these appraisals, and they were given to the staff, I believe,
a year or more ago, but I went out to get you another copy, and I called
Mr. Goerlich and said, "Can we find another copy of these 1950 ap-
praisals?" and he went and checked, and I believe he found this copy.
I believe these are the appraisals.
The Chairman. Let me ask you, Mr. Rauh, is there any doubt in
jour mind that those are authentic copies of records of the union?
Mr. Rauh. No, sir.
The Chairman. This may be made exhibit No. 18.
(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 18" for reference
and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Rauh. I would like the record to show, sir, if it may, that the
letter that is written with it, and may I just say that I think the record
ought to show, that this letter includes the statement that the other
material which you requested will be made available to you as fast as
it can be obtained.
The Chairman. That letter may be made exhibit No. 18-A.
(Letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 18-A" for reference
and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Senator Curtis. I think, Mr. Chairman, that the point here of offer-
ing those is that the property was sold in 1947, and we will later show
that in October of 1949 there was a request on the part of a union
member for an audit and that it was after that that these properties
were appraised.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20003
Now, Mr. Gosser, coming back to the purchase
Senator Goldwater. Will the Senator yield ?
What are the dates of these appraisals or these documents ?
The Chairman. This exhibit shows the letter to be dated June 25,
1959.
Senator Curtis. One is January of 1950 and the other is the early
part of 1950.
The Chairman. Are there two of them here ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes.
The Chairman. They should have been separated, but I didn't know
there were two of them. One is January 11, 1950, apparently, and
the other I can't see the date on.
]\Ir. Manuel. I think you will find both of them in 1950, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. They may both have been in 1950, but I don't see
the date of the second one.
Mr. Manuel. They are purporting to evaluate this property as of
3 years before.
The Chairman. All right.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD T. GOSSER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH L. RAUH, JR., LEONARD GOERLICH, AND FRANCIS RENO—
Resumed
Senator Curtis. Now Mr. Gosser, coming back to the purchase of
hardware and other supplies for the summer camp and retirement
farms, were some purchases made from the G. & S. Hardware ?
Mr. Gosser. Oh, surely.
Senator Curtis. Who were the owners of the G, & S. Hardware ?
Mr. Gosser. G. & S. Hardware was Melvin Schultz and myself.
Senator Curtis. How much money did you put into the hardware
m the original instance ?
Mr. Gosser. Could I say that the record— and I am sure you have
a record someplace there — will speak for itself.
Senator Curtis. We have a deposition of Mr. Schultz, given back
in January of 1951, in which he states that each of you put in $4,000.
That would be correct, would it ?
Mr. Gosser. I certainly would say so.
The Chairman. You and Mr. Schultz were the partners and owners
of this G. & S. Hardware Co. ?
Mr. Gosser. That is correct.
The Chairman. Did you two establish the business ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, Senator.
The Chair:man. You put in about $4,000 apiece, as you recollect,
and you established the business.
Mr. Gosser. That is correct.
The Chairman. When was it established — about when ?
Mr. Gosser. About 1947 or 1948.
Senator Curtis. Now, you were regional director at the time, were
you, at the time it was established ?
Mr. Gosser. I was either regional director or I became it, because
that is right at the point where I got elected.
36751— 60— pt. 58 7
20004 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Schultz is the man who was president of the
local ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir ; I believe that is right.
Senator Curtis. Now, was the name of this hardware store later
changed ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, G. & S. means Gosser and Schultz, and we changed
it to Colonial Hardware.
Senator Curtis. Now, you have testified that hardware and supplies
were purchased by local 12 and the Auto Workers Building Corp.
from this store. Who OK'd purchase orders for local 12 and the
Auto Workers Building Corp. during the years that they sold sup-
plies to local 12 and its affiliates ?
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't say who all did.
Senator Curtis. Did you ?
Mr. GossER. I could have.
Senator Curtis. And did you when you were regional director ?
Mr. GossER. I could have.
Senator Curtis. Did you give any directions that you were to
OK purchase orders ?
Mr. GossER. I could have.
Senator Curtis. Now I am referring to the time when you were
regional director and vice president.
Mr. GossER. I couldn't have been regional director and vice presi-
dent at the same time.
Senator Curtis. No. Two times I mean. Now, you say you could
have given orders or instructions as to who should OK purchase
orders when you were regional director.
Mr. GossER. All right.
Senator Curtis. And would the same be true when you were vice
president ?
]Mr. GossER. It could have been.
Senator Curtis. You wouldn't deny that it was ?
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't say yes or no.
Senator Curtis. How long a time were you part owner of the hard-
ware store ?
Mr. GossER. From its inception until the day it was sold to the
local.
Senator Curtis. What were your profits during that time ?
Mr. GossER. There I think that the records that you have from the
Treasury Department or either the Treasury Department or Internal
Revenue Department ought to speak for themselves.
The CHAiR:\rAN. When was it sold to the union? I didn't get that.
About when was it sold ?
Mr. GossER. About 4 or 5 years ago.
The Chairman. Some 4 or 5 years years ago ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. GossER. Since the union owns it, it can't make money, and
when I owned it it could make money. The union buys everything
from there.
Senator Curtis. Now, I have some figures here taken from the
Internal Revenue Service that indicate that your income from Colo-
nial Hardware Store was $4,624 in 1946. Would you dispute that?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20005
Mr. GossER. Senator, I would not dispute any figures from the U.S.
Treasury Department, which my accountant turns in and if that is
what you are
Senator Curtis.
$14,712.65.
Mr. GossER. The same answer.
Senator Curtis. For 1948, income from Colonial Hardware Store,
$10,108.49.
Mr. GossER. The same answer.
Senator Curtis. In 1950, dividends from Colonial Hardware were
$100. In 1951, income from Colonial Hardware, $100.
Mr. Rauh. 1949 was left out.
Senator Curtis. There was none shown here, and later on there was
an assessment made, and that resulted in confusion.
Mr. GossER. Is that when we went from a partnership to a corpo-
ration ?
Senator Curtis. It may have been. 1949 does not show, and then
later on it refers to a dividend.
Now, did Mr. Schultz receive the same profit from this hardware
that you did?
Mr. GossER. I would suooest that you ask Mr. Schultz any ques-
tions you want to when you have JNIr. Schultz here.
Senator Curtis. But you were partners in a hardware store, and
were you equal partners (
Mr. GossER. I want to say this to you, Senator, so that vou will not
misunderstand. Not only in Colonial Hardware, but iii the union
or in the flower fund that you speak of or anything else, I Jiave never
handled any of the financial end of it and to make an accurate state-
ment here, I couldn't. I am assuming that Mr. Schultz certainly did
the thing proper, and if he didn't he has to speak for liimself.'
Senator Curtis. Was it your understanding
Mr. GossER. I didn't keep any of the books.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Schultz operate the store or did someone
else operate it for both of you ?
Mr. GossER. We had three full-time people that operated it, and
then we had some part-time fellows from high school and we had the
amateur fly-casting champion.
The Chairman. Were you equal partners ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, Senator.
^ Senator Curtis. Was it your understanding tliat vou would sliare
m the profits equally ?
Mr. GossER. Certainly.
Senator Curtis. So far as you knoAv, vou did ?
Mr. GossER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. To whom did vou sell vour interest in tJie hard-
ware store ?
Mr. GossER. To local 12.
Senator Curtis. What was the sale price '.
Mr. GossER. The sale price was that local 12's trustees would .>o in
and take an accurate count of every item in there, and then base'cl on
what 1 i^aid for it from the wholesale house, thev would pay me plus
some other figure, I guess for tlie cash i-egister and one thin^r and
another. *"
20006 II^TPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Even thoii£rli the thing might have been bought 2 or 3 years ago,
and worth twice its value, they still only paid me what I paid for it
wholesale.
The Chairman. You say "I." You mean both of you ?
Mr. GossER. No, Mr. Schultz at a later date, during the 1949-50
employer and newspaper campaign and everything, I think the best
thing to say is that INIr. Schultz came to me one day and said that he
couldn't stand up under tlie pressures and he would like to say that
he was not involved, and would I buy his interest and take all of the
responsibilities.
The Chairmax. xit the time vou sold to the union, vou owned it
all?
Mr. GossER. I owned it all.
The Chairman. Was it then a corporation ?
Mr. GossER. It was still a corporation, and I didn't own it all.
Mr, Rath, my accountant, had some shares of stock, and I don't
remember.
The Chairman. Well, you owned substantially all of it.
Mr. GossER. I owned controlling interest by far.
The Chairman. You were the boss and he was only in there with
you?
Mr. GossER. There is no question that I made the decisions.
The Chairman. All I am trying to do js get a record here so that
we can read it intelligently and know what it says.
Mr. GossER. I owned the overwhelming majority of it.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Curtis. When you sold the hardware store, you sold it to
locall2?
Mr. GossER. That is correct.
Senator Ctjrtis. Wliat office did you have in the union at that time ?
Mr. GossER. I was vice president.
Senator Curtis. And you sold it for $5,500 plus the inventory ; is
that correct?
Mr. GossER. That could be correct.
Senator Curtis. Would you say that $44,720.64 was correct for
the sale price ?
Mr. GossER. Well, I would say that they paid me, I think, $ ( .800 for
5 years, plus the first check, and it is all contained in there, and if you
are reading oft' of my income tax, tlien you are correct. If you are
readinc: my income tax report, you are correct.
Senator Curtis. Well, I want to get this straight: You and the
president of the local formed a hardware store and you each put in
$4,000, and durinij this time you admit that you sold supplies to local
12, and to the Building Corp., and supplies for the summer camps,
and the farms, and elsewhere. Then in the end, you sold the hardware
store to tlie union for some $44,000.
Mr. GossER. I just want to add one thing, and I don't want to ]ust
sav "Yes" to what vou are doing, but I sold to anybody who wanted
to" walk in that door and buy. I was in business and I understand
that that is what free enterprise is.
Senator Curtis. I understand you were in business.
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20007
Senator Curtis. And you have also said that you could have given
orders or directions that you would okay the purchase orders for local
12, that you could have done that when you were regional director and
you could have done it during the period you were vice president.
You so testified, didn't you ?
Mr. GossER. Answering that again, yes, but again answering that
as far as I am concerned, you pointed a question at me and I want it
very clearly understood that when I opened up that business I opened
it with my eyes wide open, and I was willing to sell to anybody that
walked in that door to buy.
Senator Curtis. Did you sell sizable sums of hardware supplies to
local 12, and to its affiliates?
Mr. GossER. I think the best answer for you, because you are trying
to point at an answer. Senator, is that local 12 now owns that store, and
it has owned it for over 5 years and I made a good piece of money off
that same store and all local 12 has done is kept even and they wouldn't
even keep even if it wasn't my getting my friends to go over there and
buy from them.
If you are trying to infer anything as to whether I made some great
profit off of the hardware store, that ought to speak for itself, because
the local now owns it, and they buy everything that they use in that
hardware store, everything, and besides that the international union
buys stuff' from them, and they are still having a heck of a time paying
their help.
Senator Curtis. That is where they bought their stuff when you
owned it and when Schultz owned it ?
Mr, GossER. They bought the stuff from me, and they have been
buying stuff, and they have owned it for 6 or 7 years.
Senator Curtis. Before they owned it, did they purchase a consid-
erable amount of merchandise there ?
Mr. GossER. I said that they did.
(At this point Senator Church entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Gosser, you had some international rep-
resentatives assigned to you when you were regional director, did you
not?
Mr. GossER. Wlien I was regional director?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How many ?
Mr. GossER. Well, I would say from 7 to 11 and I don't want to be
pinned right to tlie point on that, because at various times I was given
assignments by the international executive board where I might have
had someone else assigned to me temporarily, or I might have been on
a drive.
Senator Curtis. About how many were you assigned during the
time?
Mr. GossER. Permanently are you talking about now? I think
somewhere around 11 if I am right, but I could be wrong, and maybe it
is 13. I would say 11. I think around 11 and I could be wrong.
Senator Curtis. Who were some of those people ?
Mr. GossER. Well, while I was regional director, Cyrus Martin
worked for me, and Lloyd Speidell worked for me or a time.
Senator Curtis. Arthur Peth worked for you ?
20008 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. Yes, lie worked for me for a time.
Senator Curtis. And Walter Madrzykowswi, Claude Hess?
Mr. GossER. He was never a representative.
The Chairman. He was never ?
Mr. Gosser. He was never an international representative. All he
ever was was on the executive committee at one of the plants.
Senator Curtis. Homer Avery ?
Mr. GossER. No, all he was, he was chairman of the Willys unit of
local 12 after me.
Senator Curtis. Andy Jones ?
Mr. Gosser. No, you are now reading from a script of members of
Sportsmen's Club, aren't you ?
Senator Curtis. Yes, and Charles Ballard.
Mr. GossER. Charles Ballard, yes.
Senator Curtis. He is a regional director ?
Mr. GossER. Now, yes.
Senator Curtis. Was he then ?
Mr. Gosser. He could not have been then, if I was.
Senator Curtis. I mean immediately after you become vice presi-
dent.
Mr. GossER. Yes, he followed me.
Senator Curtis. Robert Cusano ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. What does he do ?
Mr. Gosser. Robert Cusano, if a person gets hurt in the plant, and
there is a contest between our union and the management, he handles
the industrial cases before the industrial board in the State of Ohio.
Senator Curtis. And Brian Garber?
Mr. GossER. Brian Garber so far as I know, he is a foreman at the
Willys Overland plant, and quite a leading figure in the Republican
Party.
Senator Curtis. George Tetsworth ?
Mr. GossER. George Tetsworth is an elderly gentleman, who is about
72 years old, and now retired and living near St. Petersburg, Fla.
Senator Curtis. How was he connected with the union back there?
Mr. GossER. He was on a committee in the Willys plant.
Senator Curtis. Now, those were the organizing committee of the
Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club.
Mr. GossER. I thinl<: those were the first fellows that agreed to form
this club.
Senator Curtis. Plus you and Mr. Schultz.
Mr. GossER. Well, I assume if you are saying that, you have the
sheet, and I don't have it.
Senator Curtis. That was the organizing committee, and if one
of them dropped out, the remaining niunber could fill the number of
the organizing committee ; isn't that true ?
Mr. Gosser. I don't remember that, but that could have been true.
Senator Curtis. Did this Sportsmen's Club also provide for a death
gratuity to the beneficiary of its members ?
Mr. Gosser. I think now that you mention it, didn't they provide
$100 or something like that, and I don't remember, but it seems to me
some small token.
Senator Curtis. Based upon the number of members.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20009
Mr. GossEU. Maybe that was it.
Senator Curtis. That is the concern that we were talkino- about
earlier, that made the $-25,000 on the sale of the Will-O-Land Sports-
men's Club to the Auto Workers Building Corp.; isn't it?
Mr. GossER. No, I don't see how yon can say that at all, because
when you talk atx>ut the sale of Will-O to locari2, you are only talk-
ing about half of the transaction, Senator. Let me try to explain
that at the point, and as I told you before, we were trying to form
a union, and in the old days it was really hard, and Ave started and we
had the union started, but we felt this would give it a lift. Then we
bought this piece of property, and we formed this club, and we
bought this piece of property. At the point we sold this piece of
property to local 12, the money that we obtained, the $25,000 that
you keep talking about, we then turned around and bought Will-O.
It is now existing, and it is 1,900 acres, about 22 miles outside of Clare,
and it is a wonderful place to lish, if you want to go up there some
time. We then bought that piece of property, and then we turned
around and sold that piece of property to the union, and now the
union is established and everybody accepts the union, and that is
Eractically everybody accepts' that the workingman has a right to
ave a union if he so desires.
The Chairman. Let me see if I can follow you there. You sold
the first Sportsmen's Club property, half of it ; is that right ?
Mr. GossER. That is all we had at first, was Sands Lake.
The Chairman. What is that?
Mr. Gosser . All we had first was Sands Lake.
The Chairman. All right. You sold that to the union?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. For $23,000?
Mr. GossER. Whatever the price was ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. I think that hat is what it is. Then you took that
money, j^ou men, you and the fellows
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. And you bought the other property.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. What did you name that?
Mr. GossER. Willow Sportsman's Club.
The Chairman. And you bought that with the $23,000?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. Now you sold that then to the local ?
Mr. GossER. To the local for the amount of money that each one
of us had in it.
The Chairman. What is that?
Mr. GossER. What each one of us fellows had in it. For instance,
maybe one fellow was in from the start, and so he might have had
$285, and another brother might have come in a year later, and so he
had that much less, because we paid $1 a week, and so therefore you
got exactly out of it what you paid into it.
The Chairman. Then the first sale you did not get enough out of
it, then, to pay everybody, or did you ?
Mr. GossER. Oh, yes, we would have got enough to pay everybody,
but we also wanted to have the second spot, which was one place.
The Chairman. It was the same fellows, you bought the second
piece of property ?
20010 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. Yes ; that is right.
The Chairman. Now, later you sold that to the union ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. And in selling that to the union, you contend that
you did not get any profit at all, but only enough to reimburse the
fellows who had started the whole project from the beginning?
Mr. GossER. The records will show that.
The Chairman. That is what you are testifying to.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. I am trying to get this thing straight, so that we
can understand whether you are saying there was a profit made out
of it, or there absolutely was no profit, and after all, what you did
really finally resulted in benefit to the union.
Mr. GossER. Senator, you are saying it positively correct, and I
am saying to you that no individual got any profit out of it.
The Chairman. I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing with
you, but I am trying to make a record to say what you are tryinglo say.
]Mr. GossER. You are saying it correct. That is what I am trviiiff
to say. ^ ^
Senator Curtis. To get this straight, the committee of the execu-
tive board did find that there was a profit of $23,000 when the Will-0-
Land Sportsmen's Club sold the Sands Lake property to the Auto
Workers Building Corp.
Mr. Gosser. Now, Senator
Senator Curtis. That is correct ; isn't it ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes.
Senator Curtis. "Wliat did you do with the $23,000 ?
Mr. Gosser. We bought the other piece of property in Clare Lake.
Senator Curtis. Then you sold that piece of property?
Mr. Gosser. We sold that to the union.
Senator Curtis. What was the sales price ?
Mr. Gosser. Just exactly what everybody had in it, and it \^'as a
very low price.
Senator Curtis. How much was it ?
Mr. Gosser. I would think that vou have the witness outside who
can tell you that closer than me. Schultz I see out in the hall, but I
would assume that it would be a very small simi of money. The thing
I think that you ought to understand is this, that when the interna-
tional executive board put out that report, that was when people who,
for instance, Cyrus Martin, who was discharged from his job and
he made a complaint along with other fellows, and so did Speidell and
the rest of them, and this is how this thing happened. They then made
protest to the international executive board and the international
executive board investigated it. Now, since the final analysis of the
thing, those fellows have gone and nobody has been a sorehead for
lack of a different word, because they could not have their way, and
nobody has ever gone back to the executive board and asked them to
investigate it.
Senator Curtis. I am asking you now to provide the amount of
the sale price.
Mr. Gosser. I would certainly say it is somewhere between ten and
twenty-five thousand dollars, but it is hard for me to tell you how
many years each person was in, and how many weeks each person paid.
IIVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20011
But it seems to me that you can ascertain that, and I don't want a
figure to stand there, and you can ascertain that from the local's
records. They had to give a check and there is a photostat by the
bank, and we can get it for you.
Senator Curtis. All right, you do that. Will you do that ?
Mr. GossER. Surely. The important tiling I am trying to say is
that all anybody got back was what they put into it, and they didn't
get their interest or did not get paid one penny for work they did at
the summer camp, or at the new place in Clare, where now the
elderly people go and enjoy themselves, too.
Senator Curtis. You said that the sales price was somewhere be-
tween ten and twenty-five thousand dollars.
Mr. GossER. It could have been more. I will call and get it for
you, and give you the actual facts. I am saying only one thing, that
everybody got back every dollar of their own that they put in it, and
no more.
The Chairman. Would you say in that connection, if I may inter-
rupt, would you say that none of you made a profit out of it ?
Mr, GossER. None of us made a profit, and none of us even got
interest on our money.
Senator Mundt. Is it your testimony, Mr. Gosser, that this state-
ment then appearing in the reports and summary of the international
executive board action in the Toledo situation dated June 9, 1950, in
which they say that the committee finds that approximately $23,000
was made by the Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club, Inc., in their in-
vestment in the Sand Hill property — would you say that statement
is false ? It has to be false or right.
Mr. GossER. I think that you are now reading to me of a transaction
on this particular point. The only thing that was before the inter-
national executive board was the local 12 summer camp at Sand Lake,
and nothing else was before the international executive board, and so
therefore it did not go into the other point.
Now, if you want to go back to the international board and let them
investigate the other part of it, I am sure that they will come up with
the facts. If I am not positive of anything else, I am saying under
oath I am positive that nobody got a penny more than what they put
in, and they did not even get interest, and nobody made a profit.
Senator Curtis. Would you yield for a question right there ? Is it
your contention that the taking of this $23,000 that they say was a
profit, although they hold you did hot personally get it, and you
purcliased another property which later was sold to the union, and was
the purchase of this other property and the sale to the union after this
investigation ?
Mr. Gosser. No, as to the purchase of this other property, we sold
Sand Lake to local 12 because we wanted a summer camp, and we
believed we should have two things. The summer camp for the kids
to go to and a place for the older folks to go on vacation, too, and fish
and swim, and we sold the one place to buy the other place.
Senator Curtis. Now, you bought the other place after this in-
vastigatibn ?
Mr. Gosser. No.
Senator Curtis. It was not mentioned in the report.
Mr. Gosser. We bought it, I think we bought it right at the time we
sold the summer camp.
20012 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. When did you sell it to the union ?
Mr. GossER. At the end or right around during the investigation.
Senator Curtis. During the investigation ?
Mr. GossER. Or at the end of the investigation.
Senator Curtis. I think that probably clears it up.
Coming back to your international representatives, you have some
international representatives assigned to you as vice president, don't
you?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How many ?
Mr. GossER. We have had a couple of layoffs. I would think about
Senator Curtis. How many do you have now ?
Mr. GossER. Seventy. I thought that is what you were asking me.
Senator Curtis. Were these international representatives assigned
to you under the regional director, and later on while you were vice
president, and were they required to perform work on the summer
camp, and on the farms ?
Mr. GossER. Well, I want to say this. Senator, and I want to make
sure I weigh my words very carefully, so that tliey are not misunder-
stood by anybody.
Senator Curtis. What is that ?
Mr. GossER. I want to make sure I weigh these words so that they
are not misunderstood by anybody. Even up until now, when the
spring of the year comes, and we open up the summer camp, it would
be veiy costly, and not all of the fellows, but the fellows from that
district, including myself, go up and put on our overalls and we go
to work for a few days.
Senator Curtis. Did you require your international representatives
assigned to you to go up there ?
Mr. GossER. I could not say "No" to that. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Who paid their wages while they worked at the
summer camp ?
Mr. GossER. Who paid their wages while they worked at the summer
camp?
Senator Curtis. Yes. Or on the farms.
Mr. GossER. It depends on whether they were working for the local
union or where they were working.
Senator Curtis. I am talking about the international representa-
tives.
Mr. GossER. The international.
Senator Curtis. Suppose they did not show up tliere; were they
assessed a fine?
Mr. GossER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. How much would that fine be ?
Mr. GossER. I would not remember that.
Senator Curtis. Do you have any idea ?
Mr. GossER. No ; not right now.
Senator Curtis. Would it be as much as $12.50 a day ?
Mr. GossER. It could be whatever they drew a day. I felt they
were supposed to work the same as I was. I showed up and I felt they
should.
Senator Curtis. To whom were those fines paid ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20013
Mr. GossER. I think that those fines went into a fund.
Senator Curtis. A flower fund^
Mr. GossER. I would not want to say that, Senator.
Senator Curtis. It is true, isn't it ?
Mr. GossER. Xo; it isn't.
Senator Curtis. They were not paid into the flower fund ?
Mr. GossER. I would say what fund they went into because it seems
to me that most of the money which was derived there went in the sum-
mer camp to buy boats and various things like that.
Senator Curtis. Now, I am asking you
Mr. GossER. Some of it could have gone into the flower fund, but
you are now asking me to recollect exactly what happened to every
jpenny.
Senator Curtis. Oh, no ; I am asking you if you assigned interna-
tional representatives to work on the farms, and if they did not show
up, whether or not you fined them.
Mr. GossER. I told you very clearly, yes, and I am very proud of it,
and I am not ashamed of it.
Senator Curtis. Now, into what fund did those fines go?
Mr. Gosser. I am not sure what all funds were, but I am sure that
some of it went into the summer camp fund.
Senator Curtis. Did any of it go into the flower fund ?
]Mr. GossER. It could have.
Senator Mundt. It would seem like you would know, if you assessed
the fines, you would know where they would go.
Mr. Gosser. Senator, you would be surprised what little I know
about the finances of this union.
Senator Mundt. I don't doubt that; that is a big operation. But
this is something that you undertook to do, and you assigned men to
work with you on the farm or the project or whatever it was, and you
told them to show up or else "we will dock you a day's pay," and in the
nature of a fine.
Mr. GossER. I could even give you a better answer than that, Sena-
tor. I went up there and worked myself, and I made sure that tliey
showed up, but there is none of them can say that they ever paid the
fine to me.
Senator Mundt. I am not trying to establish that, but I am trying to
establish when you assessed the fine, you knew where it was going.
Mr. GossER. It went to some girl in the office and I am sure it didn't
go to me.
Senator Mundt. But the girl in the office didn't make the fine.
Mr. GossER. The fellows themselves, in meetings, and there are a
lot of meetings I didn't attend because you want to remember that I
don't just settle and do all of my work in the city of Toledo, Ohio, and
therefore there are many times that I am absent that the fellows make
a decision, that they are going to do this or they are going to do that
or they are going to do something else.
The latest decision that I know of, 3 years ago they made a decision
that they would give toys to all of the kids in the crippled children's
home, which I thought Avas very good, but I wasn't there.
Senator Mundt. Are you telling me now and telling the committee
now that the fine was assessed on a majority vote of a meeting of
some people or that you assessed the fines ?
20014 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. I want to say right now that the international repre-
sentatives set the fines and the international representatives set all
of the decisions as to how the money would be spent, and the inter-
national representatives always made every decision so far as how the
money in the flower fund would be spent.
Senator Mundt. Then there must be some record, since it was done
in a meeting, and can you supply for the committee the record of
where they decided by vote to turn over the money in the fines ?
Mr. GossER. It seems to me that that record and all of the other
records that I know of were gone over completely by the Treasury
Department, and I don't know for sure.
You are now asking me to go on back and you are asking me to go
on back and into my presidency, and I think at this time first of all our
constitution compels us to keep a copy of every record of every dues-
paying member, plus everything we send out.
You have a copy of our building there, and it is a very big building,
and we have about five rooms plus the garage and everything else
filled up with records, and I know on three difi'erent occasions we have
taken out the old records, the fellows have. Where they stand on the
records right now I wouldn't know. Senator.
Senator Mundt. You haven't destroyed the records, have you?
Mr. GossER. I haven't destroyed anything. I have never had them.
Senator Mundt. I mean the records would be available?
Mr. GossER. I would assume that they certainly had destroyed some
of the records, and our international union gives the right to the sec-
retary-treasurer and the international executive board gives you the
right to destroy your records, back to a certain time.
Senator Mundt. You are telling us then that you don't know what
happened to the fine money ?
Mr. GossER. I have told you about what I thought, but I don't want
to be clear and concise on every point.
Senator Mundt. Do I understand that your statement is then part
of it went into the flower fund, and part of it went into a fund to buy
boats and equipment at the resort ?
Mr. GossER. I would think that that is where it went.
Senator Mundt. You don't know how it was divided ?
Mr. GossER. I would think that is where a good deal of it went. It
would seem to me it would be in the records, and he must have it, be-
cause I cannot believe that the Treasury Department who spent over
7 months in that local union going over all of these records didn't do
a very good job.
I wouldn't even doubt if they don't have photostatic copies of all
of this.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Gosser, who turned the flower fund rec-
ords over to the Treasury Department ?
Mr. GossER. I did.
Senator Curtis. Do you stand by your statement this morning that
there has been no flower fund under your jurisdiction and control ?
Mr. Rauh. Now, wait a minute. I object to that question, and he
never said that tliis morning, and he made very clear this morning
that during the earlier period when he was the regional director, they
had been under his control, and that subsequently he didn't. Senator
Curtis is trying one of these businesses now.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20015
The Chairman. Just a moment, and let the witness answer. He
can remember what he said this morning. I don't recall the detail
of it.
Mr. GossER. First of all, I want to make it very clear I told you
that when we had this big hassle over the area pension plan, that all
of the employers pooled $1 per employee per head, and they went into
a very nasty mudslinging campaign, where the newspaper joined
hands with them, and where the insurance companies joined hands
with them, and where they had over 100 insurance investigators in
that town.
Senator Curtis. That is interesting, but
Mr. GossER, You asked me a question.
Senator Curtis. Whether or not you had control or jurisdiction of
any flower funds.
Mr. GossER. I am going to answer the question the way I answered
it this morning, and I am only adding a few things to it, and I am go-
ing to make that point.
At that point, I do not argue the point at all that I was, let us say, I
do not deny having some jurisdiction over them, although I don't
remember them. A^^ien the fellow from the Treasury Department
came over and asked me if we had flower- fund books, I told him "No,"
and I told him that "No" three times, and I even said, "Are you silly ?"
When he left, I asked the girl, and the girl said, "Sure, we have them,"
and she brought them in and showed them to me, and I immediately
called downtown to tlie Federal Building, and I told him we had the
books, and he came out and got them, and he took them. I am not
sure how long he had them, but he had them for a long time.
Now, at the time he gave them back to me, I said, "Here is every-
thing, and I am done," and that is exactly what I said this morning.
Senator Curtis. Now, I want to get the record straight and I don't
want to put words in your mouth.
Mr. GossER. That is back in 1919 or 1950.
Senator Curtis. Did you have jurisdiction and control of any
flower fund when you were regional cli rector ?
Mr. GossER. Oh, sure. How would I be regional director without
having control or some control ? How would you be a Congi-essman
without having a flowei- fund, or a Senator without having a flower
fund, or a political fund 'i
Senator Curtis. Did you have a flower fund under your jurisdic-
tion and control, and do you have one as a vice president?
Mr. Gosser. Well, it seems to me that about a year ago, the inter-
national president told you quite clearly about our international flower
fund. It would seem to me that you could take your own minutes
that you have here, and if you want to call in the fellow that he
told you to call, it seems to me he can give you all of the answers. I
can tell you that my name is not on any part of it, and I realize that
we have it, and I am for it. As far as I am concerned, I am for reelec-
tion, and this is a political fund, and there has been at different times,
this fund has been used for different things, and at one time when
we were fighting the leftwing element in our union, it was a very
serious thing and we needed it very badly, and it was a matter of
whether we went into the union funds or not. Long before anybody
else, I have always challenged one point, as to whether union funds
20016 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
should be used for anything except that which would derive benefits
for the people that pay the dues. I have never in my life done other-
wise than that.
Now, as far as the flower fund is concerned, sure, for the campaig;n
literature, and if you want to elect a delegate to a local union or any-
thing like that, I am guilty of it and so are you guilty of having
sometliing like that. You certainly have to advertise yourself to get
elected.
Senator Curtis. What is the answer to my question ? As an inter-
national vice president, have you and do you now have a flower fund
under your jurisdiction and control?
The Chairman. I think that you should answer the question. I
am very indulgent, but I don't think that your last answer was
responsive.
Mr. GossER. How would you say that ? There is a flower fund, but
how do you say jurisdiction and control? I don't have any control
over it, and I don't sign the checks and I don't take the money in. If
they decided now, like at the skilled trades conference, we had a cock-
tail party and I said, "We are going to have a cocktail party tonight
for all of the delegates and their wives, and the flower fund is going
to pay for it. If you are adverse to the flower fmicl, don't come."
But I don't myself as an individual, Senator, have control over it.
The Chairman. If there is such a fund somewhere, where is it ?
Mr. Gosser. There is such a fund in international headquarters.
The Chairman. Someone has authority over it.
Mr. GossER. Each officer has.
The Chairman. Someone has control of it, that is, to make an ac-
counting for it and to keep the money, and to write checks on it, and
to receive the funds when they come into it. Now, who has that?
Mr. GossER. Each international officer, and there are six of us, ap-
points one of our administrative assistants, and in my case it is Walter
Madrzykowski.
The Chairman. Those six have jurisdiction of the fund ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Are you talking about six separate flower funds,
each international officer has his own ?
Mr. Gosser. No; it is a national flower fund.
The Chairman. You have six that are really custodians or trustees
of that fund, is that what you are saying ?
Mr. GossER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Now, is there a flower fund subject to your juris-
diction and control as vice president?
Mr. GossER. Well, with five other fellows, I could not say it is sub
ject to my control. I am one-sixth of "subject to control,'' if you warn
to put it that way.
Senator Curtis. What position do the other five hold ?
Mr. GossER. Well, there are five other vice presidents, and there is a
secretary treasurei', and there is a president.
Senator Curtis. Now, where is that flower fund located ?
Mr. Gcsser. In Detroit, Mich.
Senator Curtis. Are all receipts and all contributions made to it
by check?
Mr. GossER. I would assume not.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20017
Senator Curtis. Are all disbursements made by check ?
Mr. GossEE. I would assume not to that. I don't receive any of the
money and I don't pay any of it out.
Senator Curtis. Now, where is your office, your Toledo office, in
what building ?
Mr. GossER. 425 Winthrop Street, Toledo, and it is not really my
office. My office is at 8000 East Jefferson Avenue, the local union is
there, and it is my local union.
Senator Curtis. Where do you have office space ?
Mr. Gosser. 8000 East Jefferson Avenue, Detroit, Mich.
Senator Curtis. I mean in Toledo.
Mr. Gosser. 425 Winthrop Street.
Senator Curtis. What building is that ?
Mr. Gosser. That is local 12's building.
Senator Curtis. On what floor are you?
Mr. Gosser. On the fourth floor.
Senator Curtis. Where is Mr. Ballard's office ?
Mr. Gosser. On the fourth floor.
Senator Curtis. Now, are there any flower funds collected or paid
and brought to your office on the fourth floor of this building in
Toledo ?
Mr. Gosser. To my office, you mean? No.
Senator Curtis. Whose office would it go to?
Mr. Gosser. You would have to find that out. Just how they
handle the region 2-B floMer fund, that is what that is in our union,
there are so many districts, and they are numbered like 1, 2, 2-A, and
2-B, and that is 2-B.
Senator Curtis. There is a flower fund that is collected, and the
funds end up where?
Mr. Gosser. There is a flower fund in every region ; yes.
Senator Curtis. And it ends up on the fourth floor of this building ?
Mr. Gosser. I don't know where it ends up.
Senator Curtis. You don't know" ?
Mr. Gosser. No.
Senator Curtis. Did it end up there when you were regional direc-
tor?
Mr. Gosser. As I told you this morning, when I was regional direc-
tor, I played my politics, and it sure ended up there, and I sure made
friends with everybody. I wanted to get elected, and I started as a
worker, and I got elected as a vice president, and so I must have had
some intent and purpose in what I was doing.
Senator Curtis. When you were running, was there a complete
record of every donation to it ?
Mr. Gosser. When I was running for office ?
Senator Curtis. When you were running the flower fund, was
there a complete record of every donation made to it ?
Mr. Gosser. I just told you that they had the most elaborate set of
books you ever saw in your life, or so I am told, and I never looked at
them.
Senator Curtis. Were you to get in touch with Mr. Ballard who can
bring them in ?
Mr. Gosser. No.
Senator Curtis. What report do you have about it ?
20018 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. I told you Mr. Ballard comes from Fancy Farms, Ky.,
which is outside of Paducah, and they are having a family reunion
there, and he is someplace down there, and there isn't even a phone
down there. If you want hun, the best we can do is get somebody on a
plane or an automobile and start trying to find him.
Senator Curtis. You have not contracted him since the chairman
remarked about it this morning ?
Mr. Rauh. Excuse me. This was left open this morning, and
there was never the slightest suggestion of contacting him, Mr. Bal-
lard, this morning, as I recall.
The Chair]vian. He is asking you whether you have contacted him
or not. The Ch^ir this morning got the impression that it was very
important that Mr. Ballard be here and testify, or whoever was cus-
todian of these records, and I propose to have him here if anyone
wants him. Now, I am not in any hurry, and I did immediately say
get liim here, because I thought we wanted him immediately. Now, as
soon as it is determined definitely that we want him, then I would ask
you to get him here with all reasonable speed. Whenever you de-
termine you want him, I will order him produced.
Senator Curtis. I thought you gave that order this morning.
The Chairman. Tell me now, do you want him ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
The Chairman. Proceed to get him here at the earliest convenient
time. I am relying upon you now that he will come without waiting
for a subpena to be served on him.
Mr. Eauh. We will get him here at the earliest convenient time.
The Chx\irman. When I say "convenient time," I don't want him
to get on a horse and ride day and night, but taking into account trans-
portation that is available, and so forth. Otherwise, I would issue
a subpena for him, but you have said that you will get him here if we
need him. Is that understood now, and we will have no more further
questions about it, and you are going to get him here ?
Mr. Rauh. Just one moment.
Mr. GossER. I think that I can answer any question that might per-
tain to that. He has not asked me do I know of it. He is always
directing the question, unless I misunderstood the Senator, on the
basis do I control it. I think that I can answer any question that he
might want to know about the region 2-B flower fund without getting
Charley Ballard, if he wants to direct the questions to me.
The Chairman. Do you want to pursue that a little while ? I am
ready to do it any other way.
Mr. Gosser. Charley has been somewhat sick and he has lost about
50 pounds, and unless "^it is a real urgent thing, I don't see any reason
for pressing it.
Senator Curtis. If j^ou know, where are the records for the flower
fund of region 2-B for the year 1958 ?
Mr. GossER. They have fhem here.
Senator Curtis. For 1958 ?
Mr. GossER. In 1958, 1 would assume in 1958 they are here.
Senator Curtis. That was only last year.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Where are they for 1957 ?
]Mr. Gosser. Tliey are gone.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20019
Senator Curtis. T\nio destroyed tliem ?
Mr. GossER. I would not know that. It seems to me that everybody
paid their taxes on this money, and it is money that they contribute
voluntarily, and we don't have any reason to keep it.
Senator Curtis. Was all of the money contributed voluntarily ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And are these fines voluntary ?
Mr. GossER. Now you are back to the beginning of the summer camp
and the fines ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. GossER. I don't know of anybody being fined now. "We don't
have quite the same guy that is afraid of a half a day or a quarter of
a day's work on our staif any more.
Senator Curtis. Did you assess fines against international repre-
sentatives who did not show up for work at the farm or summer camp ?
Mr. GossER. There is nobody working up there now.
Senator Curtis. I mean back there.
Mr. GossER. You are back to 1957 ?
Senator Curtis. No, 1947.
Mr. GossER. You are jumping from 1947 to when? Are you back
to 1947?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. GossER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Now, did you give orders that officers of the local
union perform work on the farms and summer camps?
Mr. GossER. Officers of the local unions ?
Senator Curtis. Salaried officers, yes, of local 12.
Mr. GossER. I would assume that is possible.
Senator Curtis. That you did ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were they fined if they did not show up ?
Mr. Gosser. I sure would assume they were. I would feel badly if
they were not.
Senator Curtis. What happened to that money ?
Mr. Gosser. The same as w4iat happened to the rest of it.
Senator Curtis. Some of it w^ent in the flower fund ?
Mr. Gosser. I guess so.
Senator Curtis. Did all of it go in the flower fund ?
Mr. Gosser. No.
(At this point Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. How much of it went in the flower fund ?
Mr. Gosser. I don't know. When you are starting an enterprise
worth over half a million dollars, it is pretty hard to tell exactly.
You have the whole booklet in front of you, and you would have to
figure out, and I don't know whether you understand it or not, but
one simple thing you can understand is that in 10 weeks' time the kids
drink 18,000 quarts of milk. That would give you an idea.
Senator Curtis. Were there any items of food purchased through
the hardware store ?
Mr. Gosser. What is that?
Senator Curtis. Were any items such as food or pop purchased
through the hardware store ?
Mr. Gosser. If they were, I don't know about that.
36751— 60— pt. 58 8
20020 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. You don't know about that ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Mundt, Did you sell food and pop in the hardware store ?
Mr. GossER, If they were, I don't know about that.
Senator Mundt. I had a question of whether you sold food and pop
out of a hardware store. That is a strange combination.
Mr. GossER. There might have been a pop machine in there, and I
don't know.
Senator Curtis. Did the hardware store sell to the local union or to
the summer camps merchandise that they did not carry in stock ?
Mr. GossER. Did the hardware store — say that over again.
Senator Curtis. Did the Colonial Hardware, or prior to that,
G. & S., sell supplies to local 12 to the building corporation, and to
the summer camp and the farms that they did not carry in stock?
Mr. GossER. I am going to make this easy for you. Senator. Wlien
I owned Colonial Hardware, if a fellow came in and if you came in
and wanted a pair of glasses, I would have figured out a way to sell
them to you.
Senator Curtis. That answers my question. Now, what other
income
Senator Goldwater. Would the Senator yield before he gets off the
flower fund ?
Senator Curtis. I am not off it, but go ahead.
Senator Goldwater. Now, Mr. Gosser, are your contributions to
the flower fund at the international level in cash or by check?
Mr. GossER. Mine is in cash.
Senator Goldwater. Yours is in cash ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. To your knowledge are all of these contribu-
tions in cash ?
Mr. Gosser. I would think to the best of my ability. Senator, that
most of tlie contributions are in cash. Whether there is any by check
or not, I don't know.
Senator Goldwater. Wliat is your income ?
Mr. GossER. What is my income ?
Senator Goldwater. Just from the vice presidency ?
Mr. GossER. I get $17,500 a year, and I get a $5-a-day daily allow-
ance, and I get my car furnished and a gas card.
Senator Goldwater. How much do you give in a year to your
flower fund ?
]\Ir. Gosser, Well, I give a little bit more tlian the other fellows,
and I give $5 to the national flower fund, and I give $5 a week to my
own region's flower fund.
Senator Goldwater. $5 a week ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir ; both places.
Senator Goldwater. Well, now, when Mr. Keuther was before us
in March of 1958, being interrogated on these funds, he said sub-
stantially what you have said in answer to a question from Senator
Curtis, when he said :
Mr. Reuther. There are no flower funds operated by the international union.
That is what you said a minute ago, isn't that correct ?
Mr. Gosser. "By the union itself, as such, that is right. It is oper-
ated by the political group within the union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20021
Senator Gold water. Continuing with Mr. Reutlier's statement:
The only funds in this category are private funds contributed to voluntarily
by private citizens for political work together in our union. The international
union has nothing to do with them any more than the U.S. Government has to
do with your private campaign f und.s.
Now, I tliink you testified tliat tliere are such funds at the interna-
tional level? -r T 1 i. 1 1-f
Mr GossER. No, Senator, I am very sorry. I did not make niyself
clear When he asked if I have control of it, I said that I would as-
sume one-sixth of it, and there were six officers, and there is only one
fund, but there are six officers. , . , ^- i
Senator Goldwater. There is only one fund at the international
level to take care of the six top officers 'i ^ „ i ^i
Mr. Gosser. Each one of the six top officers name a fellow, and tliose
six fellows administer and do it. n ,. , . . i ^
Senator Goldwater. If we wanted to get the records of that fund ot
the international at that level, to whom would we go?
Mr. GossER. I would think Larry Getnick, and I could be wrong, but
I would think that.
Senator Goldwater. Is that your personal man i
Mr. GossER. That is Walter Eeuther's administrative assistant.
Senator Goldwater. Getnick, is that the name ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Goldwater. Is it your plan to ask for those records from
that level, Senator ? ,,^ . . .
Senator Curtis. I don't know at the moment. We were inquiring
into the Toledo area, and I have no objection to you asking for them.
Senator Goldwater. I will see what you develop.
Senator Curtis. How much do the international representatives
assign to you for the flower fund ?
Mr. GossER. $5 a week, so far as I know, those that want to.
Senator Curtis. And they pay that in cash? _
Mr. GossER. I just said I assume that most of them pay it m cash.
Senator Curtis. AVlien do they pay it ?
Mr. GossER. Now you have got me. I never collected it ancl i
never saw it, and I never signed a check for it or anything else, and I
don't know. .
Senator Curtis. Are they under any compulsion to pay it i
Mr. GossER. Well, I can only say that I have never heard of any-
thing happening to anybody that didn't pay it.
Senator Curtis. Do you know of any international representative
that didn't pay it? .
Mr. Gosser. Two or three even when I was regional director did
not pay it in our region.
Senator Curtis. They did not pay at all? ^ .. , ^
Mr GossER. I think there was a fellow by the name ot— 1 tlnnk 1
am ri<Tht when I say Charley Schick, I did not think he paid, but
maybe" I am wrong. I am not sure. I know that there is a rule, it
you are going to vote on anything that has to do with the flower fund,
you can't vote on it if vou aren't a participant. That much I know.
' Senator Curtis. Now, were officers of local 12 payers to the flower
fund ?
Mr. Gosser. They give a bttle bit to it.
20022 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. To whom do they pay that ?
Mr. GossER. At the same place.
Senator Curtis. The fourth floor of the building «
Mr. Gosser. Why don't you say they pay it into this political fund,
because you ]ump years on me, and right now I don't know what
year you are jumping on me.
Senator Curtis. Eight now where do they pay it «
iJfur 2\'T''' ^ ^.?'\V '''''!™ 1 ^^'^^ f^'^y ^^ '^"^e 1^^'^^e where it even-
tually winds up with the girl who makes out that
.Senator Curtis. Wliere do they go ?
dir^cio?'''''''^''* ^^^^^^ ^^^ '^ ^"^ ^°"'^ representative or to the assistant
Senator Mundt. This should be an easy question. If I understand
It, you pay $5 a week m the Detroit fund, and I presume you pay that
to your administrative assistant. ^ f j
Mr. GossER. Yes, I pay it to Walter Madrzykowski.
fund r^^^ MuNOT. To whom do you pay your $5 a week for the local
Mr. GossER. I pay it to Charley Ballard.
Senator Mundt. Charley Ballard ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, the director.
Senator Mundt. That man who is down in Kentucky whom we aie
talking about ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. What is his job ?
Mr. GossER. He is the regional director of that district
Senator Mundt. The regional director.
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. He has his office on this fourth floor that we are
talking about ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. So then you pay it to a man on the fourth floor, and
that simplifies it.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Xow, were any of these people who paid into the
flower fund required to make their payment to the flower fund before
they got a paycheck or an expense check ?
Mr. GossER. Well, to make it easy, because I don't see any use
struggling with this, I don't know whether anybody ever said, ''You
had better pay up," and I would not know that. I would just want
to speak as myself, being a part of it, and 1 think I am speaking of
myself and my own operation, when I was a regional director I allowed
freedom to exist as far as a person wanting to give, but if a person
became a participant, I did not allow him because of a whim to say,
"Well, goodbye," and once he got his feet wet, I let him stay wet.
Senator Curtis. How did you keep him continuing to pay?
Mr. Gosser. I never had any problem, and I don't remember. Sen-
ator Curtis, from the day I started in this union, when it was 10 cents
it started out with, until right now, I could never remember of one
fellow saying to me, or around me, "I don't want to pay." And I never
heard one word of it until some guy got discharged because they didn't
do their work.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20023
Senator Curtis. Now, I understood you to say that once tliey started
in it and entered into the agreement and got their feet wet, they had
to continue. By what arrangement did you have them continue ?
Mr. GossER. I never had to, but I mean I would have, and I am trving
to be honest with you.
Senator Curtis. You say you would have ?
Mr. GossER. I would have told him to.
Senator Curtis. Did the flower fund get any income from slot ma-
chines ?
Mr. GrOssER. I think some of the money went into the flower fund
from the slot machines.
Senator Curtis. Were all of the proceeds of the slot machines given
to the flower fund ?
Mr. GossER. What date are you talking about ?
Senator Curtis. Back at the time that you had slot machines in
there.
Mr. GossER. That is back when the Elks and the Eagles and the
Knights of Columbus and eveiybody had slot machines. Is that when
you are talking about ?
Senator Curtis. I am not working for the licensing bureau of the
Internal Eevenue.
Mr. GossER. I am just sure you are talking about when we had vslot
macliines, and we had tliem when everybody else in the country had
them.
Senator Curtis. Did the flower fund get any income out of the slot
machines?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. They did ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What are you talking about? You said "when
everv^body else had them.''
Mr. GossER. He must be back, Senator, in 1947 or 1948.
The Chairman. Back in 1947 or 1948 ?
Mr. Gosser. Or maybe even before then.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever receive any money from the flower
fund?
Mr. Gosser. Personally, you mean ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Gosser. I did not receive any money from anythino; outside of
mj' wages from this union, and the businesses that I participated in,
which I am not ashamed of.
Senator Curtis. Where were these slot machines located?
Mr. Gosser. Down in the bar, the same as they were in the Eagles
and the Elks and the Knights of Columbus, and you name it.
Senator Curtis. Who owned them ?
Mr. Gosser. Local 12.
Senator Curtis. Local 12 didn't own the flower fund, did thej^ ?
Mr. Gosser. I would say to a great extent the answer to that was
that local 12, without saying that they owned it as such, yes. The
flower fund was kept for the ]:>urpose and intent of building a strong-
union, whicli I don't think anyone can say isn't strong.
Senator Curtis. You are saying that the flower fund was collected
by you wlien you were regional director, and that now Ballard is col-
lecting it, and that that flower fund is the property of local 12.
20024 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. Senator Curtis, I would say this to you : I don't think
that you can go, and let us start with a kid at 12 years old, from a
kid 12 years old until a fellow is 80 or 90, and is about to die, when
you talk to them about the flower fund, they sure in the devil know
what you are talking about. That is no secret no place. That is no
secret in the Republican Party and that is no secret in the Democrat
Party. The only ones I ever knew to do anything was once the
Republican Party fired some fellows for not contributing. I do
remember that.
Senator Curtis. Now, according to you and Mr. Reuther, one of
the purposes of this flower fund is for political campaign funds
within the union, to elect their people and to get their principles
across. Now, is it true that local 12 spent their money to buy slot
machines, and part of the slot machine proceeds went into the flower
fund?
Mr. GossER. I don't think so. I would have to see the copy of
where local 12 bought the slot machines, and I think that when you
speak of going into the flower fund, I think that the only thing
that you are talking about is whether they paid for a dinner or not.
Senator Curtis. I am talking about when these slot machines were
emptied, and the proceeds divided up.
Mr. GossER. I would say 99.9 percent of that money went into the
summer camp for some improvement.
Senator Curtis. Didn't any of it go into the flower fund ?
Mr. GossER. I am saying "Yes" because I don't want to be wrong
on 1 percent.
Senator Curtis. And local 12 bought the slot machines, didn't they ?
Mr. GossER. I don't know, and I am not sure whether local 12
bought them.
Senator Curtis. Did you have anything to do with the purchase of
them ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. Did you order the purchase of them ?
Mr. GossER. I certainly was in on it.
Senator Curtis. Who made arrangements or who made the con-
tact whereby slot machines could be purchased ?
Mr. Gosser. That was the simplest thing in the world. You walked
into a store and bought them.
Senator Curtis. Where did you buy them ?
Mr. GossER. I am not sure now, and you have got me back too
many years, but buying slot machines in the old days, they had a
catalog, and I think
The CiiAiRMAx. That is a rollcall vote in the Senate, and we will
have to come back in about 20 minutes.
(Brief recess.)
(Members of the select committee present at the time of the recess:
Senators McClellan, Kennedy, Ervin, Goldwater, Church, and
Curtis.)
(Because of further votes on the floor of the Senate, the hearing
was recessed until 10 :30 a.m., Thursday, August 13, 1959.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGE3IENT FIELD
(On August 13, 1959, Richard T. Gosser, Melvin Schultz, and Lloyd Speidell
testified in executive session before the Senate Select Committee on Improper
Activities in the Labor or Management Field. This testimony was made public
by the members of the Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or
Management Field on August 19, 1959, and follows below.)
THURSDAY, AUGUST 13, 1959
U.S. Senate, Select Committee on Improper Acti^^ties
IN the Labor or Management Field,
Washington^ D.C.
The select committee met at 10 :30 a.m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 44, agreed to Februaiy 2, 1959, in room 3302, Senate Office Build-
ing, Senator John L. INIcClellan (chairman of the select committee)
presiding.
Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat of Arkansas; Sena-
tor Karl E. Mundt, Eepublican of South Dakota; Senator John F.
Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr.,
Democrat of North Carolina; Senator Frank Church, Democrat of
Idaho ; Senator Carl T. Curtis, Eepublican of Nebraska.
Also present : Eobert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, assistant chief counsel ; P. Kenneth O'Donnell, assistant coim-
sel; Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel; Eobert E. Manuel, assistant
counsel; Pierre E. G. Salinger, investigator; Walter J. Sheridan,
investigator; Carmine S. Bellino, consulting accountant; Euth Y.
Watt, chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session : Senators McClellan and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Proceed. Mr. Gosser will resume the witness
stand.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD T. GOSSER, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOSEPH L. RAUH, JR., LOWELL GOERLICH, AND FRANCIS RENO—
Resumed
Senator Curtis. I want to go back to the point where we were talk-
ing about the slot machines. Did you direct the i)urchase of these
slot machines ?
JNIr. Gosser. I cannot remember. I certainly was a part of it, but
to say that I directed it, I would not want to say that. But I was
certainly in local 12, and there is a steering committee and I am a
part of it, and therefore I am certainly responsible for being a part of
the purchase of the slot machines.
20025
20026 I]VIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. But did you in writing or otherwise direct that
they be purchased ?
Mr. GossER. That I could not say, Senator.
Senator Curtis. Would you say that you did not ?
Mr. Gosser. No, I would not say that. If you have got something
specific there, that is all right.
Senator Curtis. Were there any slot machines in the union hall or
on the union property besides those you purchased ?
Mr. GossER. Basides those we purchased ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. GossER. I would not know how there could be any besides those
we purchased.
Senator Curtis. Were there any slot machines that were put in there
by a group that makes a business of that, sometimes referred to as a
syndicate '?
Mr. GossER. Well, Senator, I want to make it very clear for your
benefit, there has never been and there never will be any relationship
between the union that I am a party to and the underworld, if that is
what you are trying to infer, either for putting machines in, or doing
anything else whatsoever.
Senator Curtis. You deny that anyone connected with the under-
world had any slot machines in there?
Mr. Gosser. So far as I know, nobody ever had any slot machines in
there except the slot machines that presumably belonged to the local
or belonged to somebody.
Senator Curtis. Your statement is that no slot machines were
there?
Mr. GossER. To the best of my recollection.
Senator Curtis. I think you would know better than that. That
sounds so much like Hoffa.
Mr. Kauh. Mr. Chairman, that is the most outrageous comment I
have ever heard.
Senator Curtis. It is the truth.
Mr. Rauh. This is an event that goes back to 1945, and I think,
really, sir, that that is too outrageous even to sit here and listen to,
that Senator Curtis should make a remark like that at this time, and
I object and I ask, really, sir, that you stop remarks of that kind.
Senator Curtis. All right, now, listen, Mr. Rauh. Your client, Mr.
Reuther, sends msulting telegrams around here and impugns the mo-
tives and integrity of every Republican member of this committee.
You and your clients are not any different than anybody else that
comes before this committee.
Mr. Rauh. We are entitled to be protected against remarks like you
just made.
Senator Curtis. Wlienever you people restrain your remarks, you
will be entitled to demand similar treatment.
The Chairman. Let the Chair speak now. I know sometimes under
extreme difficulties we all make remarks, and I possibly sometimes
have made a few myself, when I got exasperated at the behavior of a
witness or his lack of cooperation or something. I realize that a tele-
gram was sent by Mr. Reuther that, in my judgment, should not have
been sent in the tone that it was, and had it been sent in a different
tone these hearings might be public today as he requested. But let
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20027
that be as it may. It is pretty hard for me to tell a Senator he cannot
express his views ; I think, however, we will make better progress here
if the Senator will try to refrain from those comments. I cannot tell
a Senator, "You can't say what you think." I am not going to try to
do that, but if a question is asked that is so far out of line that I
tliought it had no bearing whatsoever, I would then rule that the in-
quiry was improper. Let us try to move along here and expedite it.
Senator Curtis. From whom were the slot machines purchased,
those that were purchased ?
Mr. GossER. I have tried my hardest to explain to you, Senator,
that I as an individual did not purchase them.
Senator Curtis. You directed them to be purchased, did you not ?
Mr. GossER. I said that to the best of my recollection, I am sure
that the group that I am affiliated with, I am on the steering com-
mittee, made up their minds to put them in like all other clubs did,
and therefore I am certainly responsible for that part. Now, exactly
as to who they were purchased from, I don't know, because at this
particular time that you are talking about, slot machines were not il-
legal, and they were all over the town, and people had them in their
basements, even.
Senator Curtis. They were difficult to buy, were they not ?
The Chairman. What year is this ?
Mr. GossER. He must be back in the 1945, or 1946, or 1947 period.
Senator Curtis. That is right, 1945 or 1946.
Mr. GossER. I can say that I can produce some very respectable
people that will testify that they had them in their basements, nickel
slot machines, or a dime slot machine. They had a bar and that was
an accepted thing in our society at that time.
Senator Curtis. Did you know Tony Scott Powell?
Mr. GossER. Certainly. Tony Scott Powell. I will save you a lot
of trouble. Tony Scott Powell and I were in. the reform school to-
gether, if you must go back 40 years ago.
_ Senator Curtis. I did not have that in mind, and I am talking about
his present business.
Mr. GossER. Him and I went to reform school together, and cer-
tainly I know him and I can't say I do not know a person I went to
reform school with.
Senator Curtis. "Wliat is his business now ?
Mr. GossER. I would assume if you want to find out that, that you
would subpena him and ask him.
Senator Curtis. Do you know whatliis business is ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. You do not?
Mr. GossER. I am sure I don't know what his business is.
Senator Curtis. Do you know what his business was in the forties,
1946, 1947, and 1948 ?
]Mr. GossER. All I have to suggest is if you want to know something
about Mr. Powell, and I don't intend to tell you what anybody else's
business is except my own. Senator.
Senator Curtis. If you know what his business is
Mr. GossER. I don't know what his business is.
The Chairman. He said he does not know.
Senator Curtis. How often do you see him.
20028 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. I see him from time to time.
Senator Curtis. You still don't know what his business is ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. Did you know Joe Fretti and his brother ?
Mr. GossER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Wliat was their business ?
Mr. GossER. Well, I don't know what all of their businesses were.
Senator Curtis. What was part of their business?
Mr. GossER. Well, it was implied that they had a great deal of slot
machines and various things in the community.
Senator Curtis. Now, were there any slot machines on union prop-
erty owned by anyone other than local 12 ?
Mr. GossER. No, I want to repeat to the best of my knowledge, no.
Senator Curtis. It was difficult to buy a slot machine in those days.
Mr. Gosser. It was not difficult. Anybody could buy one for $50
to $75.
Senator Curtis. Where could they buy it?
Mr. Gosser. Any place, and I don't know where. I can introduce
you to doctors, lawyers, and everybody else that had slot machines
in their basements, and people had a little bar.
Senator Curtis. I am talking about slot machines.
Mr. Gosser. The same kind as we had were in the basements.
Senator Curtis. I am talking about slot machines that have a
payoff.
Mr. Gosser. Maybe they bought them off their friends, and I don't
know, and I don't know who had the sale of them.
Senator Curtis. Now, how much income did these slot machines
produce ?
Mr. Gosser. I would not know, but I would say it was slot machines,
it was a very good business, and I think everybody, whether it would
be us or whether it would be the Knights of Columbus, or the Elks, or
Eagles, but everybody profited a great deal off slot machines.
Senator Curtis. I believe you testified that the flower fund got part
of the income. ,'
Mr. Gosser. I think that I said so that I would not get in an argu-
ment with you that there is a possibility it got 1 percent or something
like that.
Senator Curtis. One percent?
Mr. Gosser. I think something like that, and I am not sure that it
got any, but so that I won't get in an argument I will say that they
got some part of it.
Senator Curtis. Did sometimes when the machines were emptied,
did they get half of it.
Mr. (tosser. When the machines were emptied, how do you mean?
I don't quite follow you.
Senator Curtis. When they emptied out the machines and take out
the coins, were there any instances where half of the money was
turned over to the flower fund ?
Mr. Gosser. No. If I remember right, I think half of it was
turned over, I could be wrong in saying this now, because you are
asking me to remember back a good many years, but I think some of
the money was turned over to the local, and some of the money was
brought upstairs, and as I told you, I did not go into it, and you are
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20029
from a farm State, and so you ought to understand that you were
talking about our farms, and we have 464 acres, and it takes 4,000
chickens, and it takes 500 turkeys, and it takes 80 pigs, and a dozen
steers, and when we were starting out, and now we have people m
high walks of life that give to our summer camp. But when we were
starting out, we just had a rough way of making a go of this, and we
used a tremendous amount of this money toward — as an illustration
right now, we charge a kid $20.
Senator Curtis. You are talking about money channeled through
the flower fund?
Mr. GossER. No, I am talking about money channeled through
the offices that I held at that particular time.
(At this point Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Did you have other funds besides the flower fund
in the offices that you handled ? What fund are you talking about ?
Mr. GossER. I am certainly talking about the summer camp.
Senator Curtis. No, I am talking about funds that you had. Now,
here you state you had no slot machines there, and you admit the
flower fund might have gotten part of it, and as a matter of fact
Mr. Gosser. a small part.
Senator Curtis. You ordered the purchase of those slot machines,
and you ordered the purchase of those slot machines by local 12 at a
time when under your constitution and bylaws you had no right
to interfere with their business procedures. It was local 12 money,
and certain of the proceeds were taken and put into the flower fund,
and when we ask for the records of the flower fund, they are all
destroyed except 1959.
Mr. Gosser. Senator, I want to say two things there, to answer you
in regard to that. First of all, I want to make it very clear to you that
local 12 is run by what we call a steering committee. That steering
committee has had a vote, not only once, but 900 times, I would say,
and not by exaggerating, by the membership of local 12, that sees fit
to turn out to the meetings, to run the aflairs in between the meetings,
even to the extent of guiding the officers of the local. This has been
a continual thing.
The second point that you raise, I don't even know whether it is
worth answering, to be very honest with you.
The Chairman. ^Y[mt point is that which is not worth answering?
Mr. Gosser. Eeacl the second part.
The Chairman. I missed tlie point, and I am asking for informa-
tion.
Mr. Gosser. Read back to the Senator what his second point is.
Senator Curtis. I can't repeat it exactly, but I said now your tasti-
mony is that some of the proceeds of the slot machines went into the
flower fund, and yet when you are called upon to produce the records
of the flower fund, there are not any records, but only for 1959.
Mr, Gosser. My point of that, and the reason I did not answer the
Senator is that
The Chairman. I did not get the second point.
Mr. Gosser. The point is about the flower-fund books. Now, at the
point that the employer— and I don't want to belabor this point — but
they did contribute this $1 that ran into hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of dollars, and they had private detectives and these same
20030 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
private detectives are now going to people's homes asking them ques-
tions about me, right now, and I don't know who is paying them, but I
have to assume maybe the employer is back paying them again — the
Internal Revenue Department, Treasury Department, and the FBI,
and everybody and their brother, that the Federal Government could
find except a Senate committee, and I would not have been against
that, did come in there and they spent months upon months and
months investigating that. Every book was turned over to them.
Senator Curtis. How long ago was that ?
Mr. GossER. In 1949, right while they was going on, and at that
point we had the flower-fund books, where Dick Gosser gave $50, and
this guy gave this much, and this guy gave this much, and this was
spent, and the Treasury Department took the books, and here is my
attorney, and he will tell you we gave it to him willingly, and there
was no argmnent and no nothing. I did say yesterday that I did not
know that I had such efficient girls, and I did not think that they were
keeping such books, and I thought that was a waste of time. Because
I don't think that the girls working for the union are required to do a
lot of bookkeeping for our political fund.
Senator Curtis. But your political fund had money in it other
than voluntary contributions ; isn't that right ?
Mr. GossER. So far as I know, our political fund — there is a question
that you want to keep belaboring about the slot machines, and I am
not going to get myself into a position so if you want to argue, we had
1 percent, I am going to let it ride at that point.
Senator Curtis. I would not say it was 1 percent.
Mr. GossER. If 3^ou have evidence, produce it and it will be a fact.
Senator Curtis. That is a familiar offer in this committee, too. All
we want you to do is to tell us the truth.
Mr. GossER. I am trying my hardest to tell you the truth. You are
asking me to remember back.
Senator Curtis. Why were the records for the flower fund for 1958
destroyed ?
Mr. Gosser. As far as that is concerned, I think that the fellows in
the steering committee, and I don't think but I know, I know they
made up their mind after that, that this was just a lot of nonsense,
and we all paid our taxes on it, and that we were all in one political
group, and we were all supporting each other, and our jobs were con-
tingent upon each other, and if there was somebody that was so mis-
trustfTil, the guy might as well go over on the other side of the political
fence as far as that goes.
We agreed that at the end of the year, the girl would just — I don't
want to say throw out our file, or what to do with it, but I am sure
that we are not interested in keeping the books and furthermore we
don't think that we have to keep the books. The taxes are paid on all
of the money, and now you are trying
Senator Curtis. It is other people's money ; isn't it ?
Mr. Gosser. You are trying to talk about the flower-fund money in
1948 and bring it to a current point of what we have done with some
flower-fund money that might have come from slot machines. I have
told you that the U.S. Treasury Department, Internal Revenue Depart-
ment, and the FBI, and if you can think of anybody else, they were
there. I had them every day, and I had them for morning, noon and
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20031
breakfast, and in my house, and around my house, and everything
else. Every 2 years the Internal Revenue Department just moves in
my house and takes over my dining room and starts going through all
of my books.
Senator Curtis. Now, do you want us to understand that when you
were regional representative, and later on as a vice president, did not
direct the affairs of local 12 ?
Mr. GossER. I have tried my hardest to tell you that local 12 —
every person including yourself who lives in the world of politics has
to have a political base. Local 12 is my political base. Senator, I
would just not be telling you the truth if I did not tell you that I tried
very hard to just keep right in the affairs of everything and keep
friendly with everybody and keep it with it, because this is what
makes a person successful in politics, unless I don't understand politics.
Senator Curtis. I think it had something to do with success in
business, too. Did you or did you not issue written orders as to who
was to OK purchases for local 12 ?
Mr. GossER. I don't recollect that.
Senator Curtis. Would you deny that you did ?
Mr. GossER. I would not deny anything if you are talking about
15 years ago.
Senator Curtis. How long have you been in the labor movement ?
Mr. GossER. Well, the first time that I went in the labor movement
was, I went in the IBEW and when I came out of the reform school,
whicli must have been in 1922 or 1923, and then I went to the Willys-
Overland unit which was an open shop, and from there I went into
Senator Curtis. When did you become a paid employee of the
union ?
Mr. GossER. Well, the union did not have money enough to pay
anybody until — I think that I first started to go to work for the union
for $30 or $35 a week, in 1937 or around that time.
Senator Curtis. Now have you been in union work so far as your
livelihood since that time ?
Mr. GossER. Have I been in union work so far as my livelihood ?
Senator Curtis. So far as your salary is concerned.
Mr. GossER. So far as being on full time for the union, when I
became a regional director, that was in the convention of 1943, I
have been on full time since then.
Senator Curtis. Since when ?
Mr, GossER. Since 1943, as regional director.
Senator Curtis. But your employment from 1937 to 1943 was what?
Mr. GossER. I was president of local 12.
Senator Curtis. Is that a paid job ?
Mr. GossER. No, for some time I just worked as a part-time job,
I just get paid $20, but the local did not have much money, and I
worked in the shop during the day, and then I came down in the
evenings, and then I donated my expense check back to the local union
to help it get started.
Senator Curtis. Wliat other businesses did you have ?
Mr. GossER. The Colonial Hardware.
Senator Curtis. What is that ?
I\Ir. GossER. Colonial Hardware.
Senator Curtis. What other business do you have now?
20032 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Gosstm. I have a farm now.
Senator Curtis. Where is the farm located ?
Mr. GossER. The particular farm that I have right now, you mean ?
Senator Curtis. All of them.
Mr. GossER. Well, I have one right now.
Senator Curtis. Where is that ?
Mr. GossER. In Florida.
(At this point Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Do you have a partner ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Who is your partner ?
Mr. GossER. Charley Ballard.
Senator Curtis. That is the regional director.
Mr. GossER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. What do you call that farm ?
Mr.GossER. The K.&N. Ranch.
Senator Curtis. Where is it located in Florida?
Mr. GossER. It is on the outskirts of Monticello, Fla.
Senator Curtis. How large is it ?
Mr. GossER. 1,185 acres; 1,184: acres, I think.
Senator Curtis. Do you and Mr. Ballard hold title to it?
Mr. GossER. No — do we own title to it ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. GossER. Well, there is a partnership of four; and I own 25
percent, and my wife owns 25 percent, and Charley's wife owns 25
percent, and he owns 25 percent.
Then I have a partnership in another farm further down in Florida,
with 12 or 15 fellows.
Senator Curtis. What is the name of that farm ?
Mr. GossER. C. & R. Ranch.
Senator Curtis. AVhat does the C. & R. stand for?
Mr. GossER. Circle Ranch.
Senator Curtis. Who are your partners in that venture ?
Mr. GossER. Charley Ballard, Don Pinziotti.
Senator Curtis. Who is that man you mentioned ?
Mr. GossER. Don Pinziotti.
Senator Curtis. What is his business ?
Mr. Gosser. He is an international representative. All of these
fellows, so that you don't have to ask me the question over, are inter-
national representatives, and we just pooled some money, because
Florida property is going up, and we thought we might be able to sell
it and make some money olf of it.
Senator Curtis. How big is this ranch ?
Mr. Gosser. I think, I could be wrong, but I think 1,829 acres.
Senator Curtis. 1,829 acres?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How many partners are there ?
Mr. Gosser. I think there are 12. I think it stai"ted with 14, and
I think there are now 12.
Senator Curtis. Are you equal part
ners
Mr. Gosser. I think I and somebody else has 10 percent, and we
liave a little more stock than the rest of them. I was going to say 10
percent, but that is not true.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20033
Senator Curtis. I did not get that answer.
Mr. GossER. I and one other fellow, and I am not even sure of that,
but I think that I am right, if there were 10 shares, then instead of
having one-tenth, we would have twelve-tenths, I think that is the
way it is. We picked up the two fellows who dropped out to keep
up the payments because we have $80,000 mortgages on it.
Senator Mundt. You don't mean twelve-tenths, because you can't
have that.
Mr. GossER. We have a little more than the other fellows.
Senator Mundt. Is it two-tenths, perhaps ?
Mr. GossER. I don't know. The figures will speak for itself, and
he has the books because I think that you have the New York grand
jury books, and it is all contained within the New York grand jury
minutes, and you have the books here.
Senator Curtis. Do you have any other property in Florida ?
Mr. GossER Yes, I have a home in Florida.
Senator Curtis. Where is that ?
Mr. GossER. In Hollywood.
Senator Curtis. What is the address of that home ?
Mr. GossER. Well, it is Longacres Court, and I think it is 408, but
I am not sure, and I am sorry I don't know- the exact number.
Senator Curtis. What city ?
Mr. GossER. I say Hollywood, Fla.
Senator Curtis. And the number may be what ?
Mr. Gosser. 408 Longacres Court, and it is in Longacres Court.
Senator Curtis. Do you live there part of the time?
Mr. GossER. My wife and I go down in the wintertime ever since
I come out of Michigan University, because of the fact that I have
three deteriorating disks, and besides that I have a backf ul of arthritis,
and the doctor recommended this when they took me out of the hos-
pital. There was a question as to whether I would come out of it
or not, and I have to hang in traction every morning and every night.
Senator Curtis. Do you have any other property in Florida ?
Mr. Gosser. No.
Senator Curtis. Wliat other property do you owm ?
Mr. Gosser. I own my home on Drummond Road.
Senator Curtis. In Toledo ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you own any other property ?
Mr. Gosser. Well, let us say the Federal Government and I own
the fii-st farm that I own, and they have a $32,000 mortgage.
Senator Curtis ^^^lere is that ?
Mr. Gosser. In Michigan.
Senator Curtis. What do you call that farm ?
Mr. Gosser. That was the R. & M. Ranch. What we did was sold
out there and moved to Florida.
Senator Curtis. You sold that ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir. _ ^^^ ^ ■,-, t ^^
Senator Curtis. That was a partnership with Mr. Ballard, the
regional director ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes. ■ nir- i • o
Senator Curtis. Do you own any other property m Michigan (
Senator Muxdt. How many acres do you have m that farm?
20034 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. We bought four farms there, and I think altogether
there is somewhere near the neighborhood of 600 acres in the farms.
It is all contained in the grand jury notes, and all of the records of all
of that is in the grand jury.
Senator Mundt. I have not read the records of the grand jury, and
so I ask you the questions. You can give me the answers, because I
have not read the proceedings.
Mr. GossER. My reason for saying that is that I am not accurate,
and the prosecutor took all of my bankbooks and then asked me to tell
him exactly what was in each bank and that was quite hard to do, too.
Senator Mundt. You are asked how many acres in a farm.
Mr. GossER, It is in the neighborhood of 600 acres.
Senator Mundt. But it is in the record, that is clear enough.
Mr. GossER. I don't want to make myself to be right to a point on
something here, and be off a little bit, and I would say around 600
acres.
Senator Curtis. Now where in Michigan is that farm located ?
Mr. GossER. It is closest to Adrian, Mich.
Senator Curtis. How much of a mortgage is against it ?
Mr. GossER. The Federal Government has a $82,000 mortgage on it.
Senator Curtis. The Federal land bank, do you mean ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir ; and while we are at it, I have got some pigs
and the prices are pretty low, and you ought to be working on the
prices and bring them up.
Senator Curtis. What do you produce on your Michigan farm ?
Mr. GossER. On the Michigan farm, I don't produce anything, and
the people that bought it are running it.
Senator Curtis. I thought you said you owned the farm there.
Mr. GossER. No ; I said I sold it, and we bought this farm in Florida.
The Chairman. I understood you sold your Michigan farm and
bought a Florida farm.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. You don't own the Michigan farm ?
Mr. GossER. He said what do I raise in Michigan and I said nothing.
Senator Curtis. I beg your pardon.
Senator Mundt. The original question was. Do you own any other
property? and you said you and the Federal Government owned a
farm in JNIichigan.
Mr, GossER. We do, when you look at it, and I can't say I own it,
because the Government has a $32,000 mortgage on it.
Senator Mundt. If you said you sold it you would not own it with
the Federal Government.
Mr. GossER. I still own part of it, because I sold it for more than
$32,000.
Senator Mundt. You have a second mortgage on it ?
Senator Curtis. You have a second mortgage ?
Mr. GossER. Yes ; I sold it under a land contract.
Senator Curtis. How much do you have coming under the contract ?
Mr.GossER. I would think $28,000, if I am right.
Senator Curtis. $28,000 coming to you ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir ; it is in that neighborhood.
Senator Curtis. Do you own any other real estate or have an inter-
est in any ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20035
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. In any State ?
Mr. GossER. Sir; what is that?
Senator Curtis. Do you own any other real estate or interest in any
real estate in any of our States ?
Mr. GossER. No; I don't. I am not against it, but I don't.
Senator Curtis. In what banks do you have checking accounts?
Mr. GossER. You have them in the grand jury, haven't you ?
Senator Curtis. No; they may be here, but I am just asking you.
Mr. GossER. The papers certainly said that you folks subpenaed
them. Well, we have a checking account in Toledo, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. Who is "we ? "
Mr. GossER. My wife and I, and the ranch.
Senator Curtis. What bank is that?
Mr. GossER. Well, my wife and I's checking accomit is in the Toledo
Trust Bank, and I believe that the checking account for the farm is
in the State bank.
Senator Curtis. Do you have accounts in any other banks ?
Mr. GossER. There is a small savings account in the Federal bank.
Senator Curtis. Where is that?
Mr. GossER. In Toledo, Ohio, and we have accounts in Hollywood,
and we have a savings and checking account in Hollywood, and we
have a savings account — I don't want to say for sure — Mrs. Ballard
keeps the books on the farm in Florida, but I would assume that she
would have a checkins: account in Monticello, Fla., but I would not
want to make it as a positive statement.
Senator Curtis. I don't think it is so difficult for a family to tell
where their bank is.
Mr. GossER. I did not say it was difficult for a family.
Senator Curtis. Or hard to remember. I think that is something
that is in your immediate experience. How many bank accounts do
you have in Florida ?
Mr. GossER. I told you we have a savings account and a checking
account in Hollywood, Fla., and I think that we also have the check-
ing account there now. Now, there is one thing that you ought to
know, Senator Curtis, and I might as well tell you the same thing I
told the New York prosecutor. I have never kept any of my checking
accounts and I have never signed a check in my life, and you just
can't produce such a check. The books for one ranch are kept by one
of the fellows, and the books for the other ranch is kept by Mrs. Bal-
lard, and the books for the other ranch is kept by my wife. So when
I say specifically something, I trust them all, and I don't run over
every morning and look to see exactly this or that or anything, but on
the best of my knowledge I have told you where the three different
checking accounts are for the three farms, excepting there is a possi-
bility for the one in the further part of Florida is that I know that
they once had that money in Petersburg, Fla., for the downpayment,
and then we made the downpayment on the farm, and then I tliink
they took and put the checking account in a town next to tliere,
Wachuga, Fla., I believe. It could be Salton Springs, but I don't
think that there is a bank there. If you have something there, I will
be more than fflad to admit it.
36751— 60— pt. 5J
20036 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. If your 1958 income tax returns show interest re-
ceived from the Thompson Savings Bank, that would be correct ?
Mr. GossER. That is the one in Hudson, Mich., and that is a small
town near the R. & M. Ranch, and we do have some money left
there, yet.
Senator Curtis. You have money drawing interest in Toledo Trust
Co.?
Mr. GossER. Yes ; I said that.
Senator Curtis. Some money on interest in the First Federal Sav-
ings ?
Mr. GossER. I said that.
Senator Curtis. Where is that?
Mr. GossER. In Toledo. I said the Federal Bank.
Senator Curtis. And you have money drawing interest in the State
Bank of Toledo?
Mr. GossER. I said that.
Senator Curtis. And the First National Bank of Hollywood ?
Mr. GossER. I said that.
Senator Curtis. Now, do you have any other land contracts with
sums owing to you and drawing interest besides the one in Michigan?
I will refresh your memory on that. The Goodman land contract.
Mr. GossER. Those are some lots that I sold on Central Avenue.
Senator Curtis. In Toledo ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir. I bought them for $950 and sold them for
$5,000 over a period, and I think I bought them back in the 1930's
and sold them last year, to get some of this money to help make the
payment on the farm.
Senator Cit^tis. Are 3^011 referring to the interest ?
Mr. GossER. I am just explaining it.
Senator Curtis. Now, tlie Temblayand land contract, where is that i
Mr. GossER. Is that timberland ?
Senator Curtis. It may be.
Mr. GossER. That is a part, as I spoke to Senator Mundt about that,
that is part of the 600 acres, and there were about four or five farms
combined.
Senator Curtis. Now,the Wareaw land contract.
Mr. Gosser. Tliat is part of the lots tliat I own on Central Avenue,
That is a bicycle shop, and the fellow had it on the bicycle plant, and
he bought the next one for the first lot that I sold.
Senator Curtis. Now, I read the list of banks where you had money
on deposit, and were drawing interest. Now, have you named all of
the ban ks where you liave a checking account ?
Mr. Gosser. I named the bank in Hollywood, and I named the
bank — let me ask you, Senator, so I could be clear, are you saying
where I personally have a. checking account, or where I might have a
checking account with the association of the 12 fellows, or with the
association of the R. & M. Rancli ?
Senator Curtis. Every account in which you have an interest.
Mr. Gosser. In which I have an interest. All right. There is a
checking account, I would say, in Hollywood, and there is a checking
account and again I want to say I believe I am right, and I am not
sure, but I believe Mrs. Ballard has one in Monticello, Fla., and there
is a checking account in Toledo, and there is a checking account in
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20037
Hudson and to the best of my recollection unless you can tell me
some other one, I think that is it.
Senator Curtis. Xow, do you have any safety deposit boxes?
Mr. (.tosser. One,
Senator Curtis. Where is that ?
Mr. GossER. Toledo Trust.
Senator Curtis. Does anyone else share that with you ?
Mr. GossER My wife. As far as I am concerned, I would say I
siiare it with her and I have never been tliere and she is the one that
goes and comes.
Senator Curtis. What other property do you have «
c/i T ,Y°^'^,^: ^ tliought— I don't know what you are talking about
ad I thought we arrived at the point where I said that I owned na
other properties, and other than those you mentioned
Senator Curtis. Do you have any stocks or bonds ?
hnnrl« £''''''''• .f^" ,^ '^^^'^ ^^""'^ ''''^ ^^^^^^ ^'''^ I don't have any
^.n nt "f i^'''.V''? ^^''""y' ^'''' '' Srea^ feeii^g ^^Mi the people
I am associated with that we should not have any shares of stock in
any corporate structures or anything like tliat
Senator Curtis. Does Mrs. Gosser **
Mr. GossER. I think at one time Mrs. Gosser had 50 shares of some
kind of stock and I asked her to sell tliem.
Senator Curtis. You have no shares now, either one of you?
Mr. Gosser. Unless my first wife had some, I think I owned five
shai-es of Cities Seiwice back in 1920 and I don't know whither she
sold them or not, and she got them when I got my divorce ^d I would
not want to say whe her she has got thenfor whether she soldThrm
Senator Curtis. Who handles your investments ?
wa^[.' ''''■ ^^'"' ^'- -^^^^^ '' "^^ accountant, if that is what you
Senator Curtis. Does anybody handle any investments?
wife!" •^''''' '"^'"''^ ^"^ '''^' '^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^'^'^^"'' I ^^^dd say my
Senator Curtis. IVho prepares your tax returns «
tJ: ,n^" ^^ ^'^^ t^r ^ ^''^'^^ ^^^^^^ '^^d Francis over here does
Senator Curtis. Does Mr. Rath help with that «
Mr. Gosser. Mr. Rath certainly has helped; for a long while Mr
ToS^^ea^nmv?" ^"^ ^'''' ^""^^ ""'"^ "'^"""'^ ^^ ^^^ businesses in the
Mr. Gosser. I have no interest in any business no place now
Senator Curtis. Either disclosed or undisclosed «
Mr. Gosser. Either disclosed or undisclosed.
Seiiator Curtis. Do you get any income directly or indirectly from
any business m the Toledo area now « ^
Mr. Gosser. Well, if I do, I don't know of it
Senator Curtis. Well, I think that you would know. Do you?
Mr. Gosser. I said I don't know of it.
(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room )
Senator Curtis. Which one of your farms do you handle the
chickens and turkeys on ?
r-incl " ^^^^^^'^' '^^^'^ ^"I'J^^eys «re handled on this overall farm in R. & M.
20038 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Before you get away from the stocks and bonds, I
can understand your position in not wanting to own stocks and bonds.
Mr. GossER. I was wrong on that. I own some Government stock
-which I don't think anybody is going to object to. That is Govern-
ment bonds and no one would object to it.
Senator Mundt. While you are getting to that point, you said you
•did not own shares of stock. I thought a labor leader might not
want to own a stock in a corporation he is negotiating with, and I
was going to say that that certainly would not hold true of Govern-
ment bonds and I was a little surprised you did not own any Govern-
ment bonds because you answered the question, "Do you own any
stocks or bonds ? " by saying "No."
Mr. GossER. I am awfully sorry. It just happened to slip my mind
and I do from time to time, I have owned quite a few and I have sold
some, and I just bought some more Goverimient bonds, as far as that
goes.
I figure that that money is real safe, because I figure if those bonds
aren't any good, my money isn't any good, and so I feel I am pretty
safe in buying those.
Senator Mundt. I would agi'ee with you, but in response to the
question, "Do you own any bonds?", you said, "No," and I was going
to ask that question.
Mr, GossER. I would like to say this to you. Senator Mundt, that as
owning stocks in corporate interests is concerned, I don't think that I
would want to own any stocks, even though my colleagues might not
feel that way, because I am the type of a fellow that I think if I own
any part of it, I would be wanting to have something to do with the
running of it.
I am that way and I think that the free enterprise system gives you
that riglit, and I am kind of an eager beaver. I had a nervous break-
down and I have had a couple of heart attacks, but I don't stop, and
I just go ahead and I am a fellow who can't sit still in a chair.
Senator Mundt. You made another statement, that you had never
written a check in your life, or signed a check.
Mr. GossER. Signed a check, yes. Now, I mean for my personal
money or anything like that.
Senator Mundt. That is what I mean. I am kind of curious.
Are you on a strictly cash basis ?
Mr. GossER. Oh, no. We do our business through checking ac-
counts, but my wife does it all and signs my name.
Senator Mundt. I am talking about your business, and you have
to buy shoes and you have to pay rent and you have to do everything
I do.
Mr. GossER. My wife does all of that and she signs my name.
Senator Mundt. Is there anything you buy yourself or you just
carry cash?
Mr. GossER. My wife, even the clothes I have on, my wife bought
and I assume that she paid for them by check, or maybe by cash, and
I am not sure, but I think most of our business is done by checking.
Senator Mundt. Anyhow, you want to stand on the statement that
you have never written any checks ?
Mr. GossER. I trust my wife, and at the point I don't trust her, I
think there is not much use living with her.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20039
Senator Mundt. I trust my wife, too, but I do not see liow you get
along without a checking account.
Mr. GossER. I have three checking accounts, and I do not deny hav-
ing a checking account, and I am just saying I do not sign the checks.
I just want to say that so if he starts asking me something about the
check, I went through this. You know, my problem is this isn't the
first time I have been investigated for everything that you can be in-
vestigated for, and I have been investigated by tlie Detroit police for
shooting Walter Keuther, and I have been investigated by the FBI,
for I don't know how many things, and I have been investigated by
the New York grand jury, and I was took there and told by the prose-
cutor in the presence of my attorney and Jack Conroy that if I signed
a John Doe warrant, I had to sign a waiver of immunity so that any-
thing they used against me, if they didn't indict me, that that would
be completely destroyed, and my books would be returned, and it
would never be used against me.
I have heard more about what I said before that New York grand
jury than anything in a lifetime. I will tell you, I have kind of lost
faith, and one of my greatest arguments with the prosecutor there was,
"What was this check for ? "
We did a little remodeling in the kitchen, and we got in a big argu-
ment over what the check was for, and I said, "Will you let me ask my
wife?" and he wouldn't let me go out, and I said, "I can't tell you
what the check was for," and so he finally decided after an hour and a
half or 2 hours fight to let me ask my wife. And she said, "Well, that
is for when we had them put that cupboard on the other side of the
stove."
That is what the check turned out to be, and I just thought I would
advise the Senator of that, so if we got in an argument, we might have
to hassle over some check. Anything he produces, I am not trying to
hide anything. By now, if I wanted to hide something, I don't know
^how I could hide it, and I don't think that I could hide anything.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever owned any interest in any business
in Toledo directlv or indirectly other than the Colonial Hardware or
the G.&S. Hardware?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. You have not ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. Or had any interest in it at all ?
Mr. GossER. No ; you asked me that question.
Senator Curtis. Now, you say you have never signed any checks.
Have you ever made deposits ?
Mr, GossER. Now, in a couple of savings accounts that I had of my
own, I made the deposits, and I drew the money out.
Senator Curtis. Were those deposits in cash ?
Mr. GossER. Sure, some were cash and some checks.
Senator Curtis. What was the biggest cash deposit you ever made ?
Mr. GossER. I don't know.
Senator Curtis. About how big was it ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. You are a man with considerable means, and you
say you do not write checks, and you do not sign them.
Mr. GossER. I might be a man of considerable means, but I am no-
where near
20040 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Coming back to the chickens and turkeys, to whom
do you sell those ?
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't know. The farm superintendent and my
wife handle most of that.
Senator Curtis. Do you know a man by the name of Chick Gross?
Mr. Gosser. Charlie Gross ? Oh, surely.
Senator Curtis. "What is his business ?
Mr. GossER. Charlie works in the plant during the day and I would
say Charlie does everything.
Senator Curtis. Does he drive for you sometimes ?
Mr. GossER. If he would. Senator, it would be because of the fact
that no one else was around, and he isn't much of a driver.
Senator Curtis. Does he drive for you sometimes ?
Mr. GossER. I am just trying to recollect whether I ever let hun
drive me someplace, and I have my doubts, but I don't want to say
"No." If you ever rode with him, you would know what I mean.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever sold him any turkeys?
Mr. Gosser. I don't know. I assume my wife could have. I imagine
he might have raffled off some of them ; is that right ?
Senator Curtis. I do not know, but is he your employee?
Mr. GossER. AVliat is he ?
Senator Curtis. Is he not employed in your employ under your
direction ?
Mr. Gosser. Oh, no. Charlie Gross does not work for me.
Senator Curtis. Who does he work for ?
Mr. GossER. He works for the Willys-Overland Motors, Inc., which
is now the Kaiser- Willys.
Senator Curtis. Does he ever drive, that is what I am trying to
get.
Mr. Gosser. I am telling you again, so far as I can recall, I have
never had Charlie Gross drive me anyplace.
Senator Mundt. From what you said, he must have driven you at
least once because you know what kind of a driver he is.
Mr. GossER. This is a joke of our town, Charlie Gross and his
driving. He is just looking at the lights and the scenery and every-
thing and he is looking at everything except where he is going and
everybody knows this, and so when we are going someplace and
Charlie says "I will drive," everybody says "No."
Senator Curtis. Is he in the poultry business ?
Mr. Gosser. Oh, no.
Senator Curtis. Why would he buy $645 worth of turkeys on
March 5 ?
Mr, GossER. He is the type of a guy that would have sold them and
made a buck.
Senator Curtis. Were they used in a raffle?
Mr. GossER. I can say that there is every possible chance, there are
raffles all over town going on always.
Senator Curtis. Where do those raffles take place?
Mr. GossER. Well, you just have to ask Charlie Gross that, and I
don't know where he has raffles and the American Legion has them and
the K. of C.'s has them.
Senator Curtis. Who has them ?
. Mr. GossER. The union, and everybody has them.
IMPHOPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20041
Senator Curtis. Where do the union raffles take place ?
Mr. GossER. I don't laiow, and I am not there. I am in collective
bargaining and I am in Detroit, and I am sure I do a lot of things, but
I am sure I am not in the raffles business.
Senator Curtis. You sold your turkeys for the union raffle, for the
purpose of that ?
Mr. GossER. My wife could have sold turkeys to Charlie Gross
Senator Curtis. Your wife did that?
Mr. GossER. She could have, or the farm superintendent could have.
Senator Curtis. Forty-five days later Charlie Gross bought $340
worth of chickens,
Mr. GossER. Sure. We used to raise as high as 5,000 chickens and
as high as 1,000 turkeys. Sure, we were in business to make money
and is there anything wrong with that? You come from a farm
State.
Senator Curtis. The fact of the matter is clear up to 1958 ; you are
selling to the union, are you not ?
Mr. Grosser. No, I am not selling to the union up to 1958.
Senator Curtis. Well, now, these turkeys and chickens at least part
of them, were used in the union raffle ; is that not correct ?
Mr. GossER. iSTo, the imion does not conduct any raffles as such.
Somebody in the union might conduct the raffle but the union does not
conduct the raffle.
Senator Curtis. Well, you said, "We conduct them," and I asked you
what you meant and you said, "The union."
Mr. GossER. From that point, I was talking in general terms. So
far as I am concerned, the union itself does not conduct any raffle;
the only raffle that I know that the union conducts that they have an
entrance- raffle and half the proceeds go to the fellow that comes into
the meeting and the other half goes for our new building.
Senator Curtis. Now, do you know a man named Stanley Homan-
iack?
, Mr. GossER. Surely.
Senator Curtis. What is his business ?
Mr. Gosser. He works at the Willys-Overland plant.
Senator Curtis. Does he have any other employment ?
Mr. GossER. I would not know what all he does in his life, and I
don't follow him around.
Senator Curtis. Does he do anything for you ?
Mr. Gosser, Sure, he does about anything I would ask him to do.
Senator Curtis, And Gross, also?
Mr. GossER, Charlie Gross and I have been friends since we sold
newspapers together, when we were 7 years old, and that is exactly
51 years ago, and I would say we are pretty friendly ; wouldn't you,
Senator ?
Senator Curtis. I think that you are. Now, have you sold Ho-
maniak any turkeys and chickens ?
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't know any more than I would know about
Charlie, I wouldn't think that Stanley would be as far into raffling
as Charlie is, knowing the two guys.
Senator Curtis. Here is a recent sale, December 29, 1958, $500,
chickens, received from Homaniak and self,
Mr. Gosser. He could have bought them.
20042 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Were they used for a raffle, too ?
Mr. GossER. You would have to ask him that. I don't know.
Senator Curtis. Here is $7,899.68 in poultry sold in 1958 at a profit
of $5,196, and the purchasers are Charlie Gross, Homaniak, and then
do you know a Martin and Jones ?
Mr. GossER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Who are they ?
Mr. GossER. They are fellows who work in one of the plants.
Senator Curtis. Wliat is Martin's first name ?
Mr. GossER. I don't know.
Senator Curtis. Wliat is Jones' first name ?
Mr. GossER. I don't really want to say that.
Senator Curtis. And was Zvara in on that deal, too ?
Mr. GossER. Oh, come now. Senator.
Senator Curtis. I cannot quite make it out.
Mr. GossER. Senator, you are more intelligent than that.
Senator Curtis. Did you sell him two steers ?
Mr. GossER. I told you that when I went in business I opened the
door any anybody could buy anything off of me.
Senator Curtis. This is farm produce in 1958.
Mr. GossER. There is a possibility that Zvara bought a steer off of
me and there is a possibility that one of you fellows up there bought
a steer, and I don't know.
Senator Curtis. Who are Sedler and Shellinger ?
Mr. GossER. Someone who bought something from me, I guess. You
have got ahold of my income tax report, and you are reading one that
bought something from me. So, from now on, why don't you just say
the name and say what they bought and I will agree with it.
Senator Curtis. Well, who is Sutton ?
Mr. Gosser. I don't know and I am just going to agree with you.
Senator Curtis. Who is Seaton ?
Mr. GossER. You tell me who he is and what he bought.
Senator Curtis. I do not know.
The Chairman. If you know him, let us answer. Do you know him f
Mr. GossER. There is a question as to whether I know liim or not.
The Chairman. What is his name, Sedler?
Mr. GossER. Anthony Sedler, is that right?
The Chairman. It does not show.
Mr. GossER. Well, I don't know, and I know Anthony Sedler who
was the chairman of the Willys Boosters at one time.
The Chairman. Who is Shellinger ?
Mr. GossER. That is Loretta, isn't it? Is there a name before it?
The Chairman. No. They bought $500 worth of turkeys.
Mr. GossER. The only Shellinger I know is a guy I went deer hunt-
ing with once and the other is Loretta Shellinger, and that is this guy's
wife.
Senator Mundt. What does the man you went deer hunting with
do for a living?
Mr. GossER. He is a plumber. They say he is a good one.
Senator Curtis. Buddy's Box Lunch. Do you know any of those
people ?
Mr. Gosser. I would say I know them all.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20043
Senator Curtis. What are their names — the principal owners, that
you know ?
Mr. GossER. There are just two brothers : Virgil, and I can't think
of the last one.
Senator Curtis. Wliat is their last name ?
Mr. GossER. Gladio or something like that.
Senator Curtis. They sell to some of the plants or they have a food
contract in some of the plants?
Mr. GossER. They sell all over there, and they cater to the plants,
and they cater to the Toledo Club and all of the millionaires' homes
and everything else.
Senator Curtis. Do you sell any turkeys or chickens to them ?
Mr. Gosser. I would be surprised if we didn't, because he is a big
buyer.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Gosser, what is the Doehler Jarvis
Council ?
Mr. Gosser. The Doehler Jarvis Council is a council set up within
the framework of our international union, known as the Doehler Jarvis
Intel-corporation Council, and out of that flows a national agreement
with the Doehler Jarvis Corp., which is now a subsidiary of National
Lead.
Senator Kennedy. I wonder if I could ask a question there. I
notice you made some references to the detectives who were inter-
viewing you and you say are now involved in interviewing people in
Toledo.
Mr. Gosser. Yes; the same detective agency, McAllister, who inter-
viewed people and got people, I think, to distort the truth — in my
opinion, anyway. Senator — along with a lot of other private detective
agencies, when we had the fight with the employers, are now going
to people's houses.
As an illustration, they went to one Dorsey Carr's house in Port
Clinton, Ohio.
Senator Kennedy. Recently ?
Mr. Gosser. Just recently ; yes.
Senator Kennedy. Do you know whether they were doing that on
behalf of whom ?
Mr. Gosser. I don't know, but certainly the questions led me to be-
lieve, if this fellow is telling the truth, that they are trying to question
me about things that somebody wants to ask me here.
Senator Kennedy. Well, now, Mr. Manuel, is he working for you?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. You do not know anything about it ?
Mr. Manuel. I have talked to Mr. McAllister over the phone.
Senator Kennedy. How long ago ?
Mr. Manuel. About a week and a half ago.
Senator Kennedy. Did you ask him to do any interviewing ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes ; with Dorsey Carr.
Senator Kennedy. Will you tell me who is compensating him ?
Mr. Manuel. No one.
Senator Kennedy. Why is a detective agency interviewing for you
if he is not being compensated ?
Mr. Manuel. I would be glad to tell you, sir.
Senator Kennedy. I would like to know.
20044 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Manuel. When we were examining all of these suitcases, he
came across a report of operative A-lOO, and I did not know who he
was or who signed it, but I got this stuff from Mr. Ells, and he is an
attorney for the Toledo Blade, I believe, back there in the Bolman's
suits, and this obviously came from that file. On this memo, it men-
tioned Dorsey Carr, and it was interesting, and I will read it if you
like.
Senator Kennedy. I am trying to find out about the detective
agency.
Mr. Manuel. I called Mr. Ells, and I said, "Can you tell me who
prepared this report?" and it purported to be an interview with Mr.
Dorsey Carr, dated November 9, 1949. He checked his files and he
called me back and he said, "I checked with Mr. Dan McAllister, and
he is the one who prepared this at my request in 1949," and he said,
"I called Mr. McAllister and he will be glad to cooperate with you."
I then called Mr. McAllister and he said, "Yes, I have prepared this
report myself," and he said, "Every word in there is true," and then
I checked long distance and I found Mr. Carr, and that is the inter-
national representative who claims he had to kick back and who
was in some other difficulties with Mr. Gosser, and he lives in Port
Clinton.
I found out through long distance and I tried to get him at his home
and I could not. Then Mr. McAllister volunteered that since I had
found his present address, that he would call him and see if he could
cooperate with the committee.
Senator Kennedy. Was he doing that on behalf of Mr. Ells ?
Mr. Manuel. At my request.
Senator Kennedy. Wliy would he do interviewing for this commit-
tee without compensation ?
Mr. Manuel. Senator, all he did was pick up the telephone and call
Carr, as far as I know.
Senator Kennedy. He did not make any pei-sonal call?
Mr. Manuel. He might have and he said, "If I can't get him, I
will drive over there."
Mr. GossER. He went down to Dorsey Carr's house.
Mr. Manuel. He might have.
Senator Kennedy. How far is that ?
Mr. GossER. Close to 50 miles.
Senator Kennedy. Was he driving down 50 miles and doing this
interviewing and driving 50 miles back, and who is paying him f
Mr. Manuel. He said if he had to, he would drive down as a
courtesy.
Senator Kennedy. Who is going to take care of the bill ?
Mr. Manuel. No one.
Senator Kennedy. He is doing it for nothing ?
Mr. Manuel. Nothing, because I asked him to.
Senator Kennedy. You do not know him, do you ? You never met
him ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Why is he spending half a day or a day ?
Mr. Manuel. I don't know how much time he spent, and I talked to
him on the telephone and asked him if he could make the contact
with Mr. Carr.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20045
Senator Kennedy. Did he interview anyone else ?
Mr. Manuel. Not at. my request or not that I know of; no, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Did 3- on hear he interviewed anyone else?
Mr. Gosser. Well, Senator, I would rather refrain from answering
your question, if you don't mind, because there has been something,
and I have committed myself prior to being told anything that I would
not reveal the source, because these people have children in school and
high school and I am committed to that, and I think it would be
improper for me to.
Senator Kennedy. Would you answer the general question, whether
you are aware whether Mr. McAllister has interviewed people recently
in regard to these matters that are now being discussed other than
the man whose name has already been referred to?
Mr. GossER. As I said before
Senator Kennedy. Without indicating who they may be, you have
heard that he has interviewed others ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, it came to my office.
Senator Kennedy. Well, now, you do not know anything about this ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir. I don't say that he has not done it, but I do
not know. This Senator, ties in with a handbill, which I have here,
and we plan to put that in later. It is a handbill that was circulated
at Atlantic City convention in 1947, when Mr. Gosser was elected.
I will make it available and let you inspect it, sir.
It purported to have photostatic copies of certain kickbacks made
by one Dorsey Carr, who was international representative on Mr.
Gosser's staff.
Now, the only reason I was interested in it was the memo from this
A-lOO, and I had no idea who he was, purported to recite what hap-
pened at this interview. Mr. Carr recited to him that when he left the
employment of Mr. Gosser
Senator Kennedy. Is Mr. Carr going to be a witness ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir ; I am merely telling you what it is.
Senator Kennedy. Or Mr. McAllister ?
Mr. Manuel. He offered to be.
Senator Kennedy. If it is going to be put in evidence we ought to
get him under oath.
Mr, Manuel. We were limited to the nmnber of witnesses and the
number of subpenas.
The Chairman. I never limited you.
Mr. Manuel. Senator Curtis did.
Senator Curtis. I think I told him to hold this down so we could
get through in 2 days.
The Chairman. I did not want the record to reflect that I did.
Senator Curtis. We did not mean to imply that. I wanted to limit
it within my request. I think Mr. Manuel should have the same lati-
tude of reciting facts in here that our chief counsel does.
The Chairman. He has been reciting facts in answer to a question.
It is not testimony. It is just a reply to a request for information
from the Senator.
Senator Mundt. Speaking for one member, I would like to know
what is in this memo that has been the cause of this.
Mr. Manuel. Could we go off the record ?
Senator Mundt. The whole thing is off the record or supposed to be.
Mr. Manuel. Could I read this off the record ?
20046 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chajeman. Just a moment now. If you want to have a con-
ference here between counsel and the members of the committee, that
is all right.
Mr. Manuel. I merely wanted to satisfy Senator Kennedy, and I
think he is entitled to know this.
The Chairman. Do you want it on the record ?
Senator Kjennedy. All I am trying to find out is about the detective
agency. Whatever other material that Mr. Manuel wants to put in
the record, it can be offered by him. I am merely attempting to find
out now what the relationship is between the detective agency and
this committee.
Mr. Manuel. That is what I am trying to tell you, and it is as I
explained. Now, this memo
The Chairman. This is not testimony, just information.
Mr. Manuel. But Senator Kennedy, I do not know who wrote
this.
Senator Mundt. A little louder, please.
Mr. Manuel. I did not know who prepared this memo, and it is a
carbon copy and it just had this number. Now, apparently, he was
hired by Mr. Ells back in 1949. But the memo recites that McAllister
went and talked to Mr. Dorsey Carr who had by that time left Mr.
Gosser's employment. And Mr. Carr recites
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Chairman, this will now put into the record what
Mr. Carr is alleged to have told a detective when neither Mr. Carr
nor the detective is here. That is a triple hearsay that Mr. Manuel
is trying to get into the record.
The Chairman. Mr. Manuel did not initiate this conversation. He
is replying to Senator Kennedy. Any statement that he is making
here is not evidence, and I am perfectly willing now to take it all off
the record. This is just back and forth for information. I think that
is right, unless some Senator wants it on the record.
It is just information, as I might turn around here and ask some-
one what he knows about this. It is just for information for guidance,
and it is not testimony. It does not belong on the record unless some
Senator says he wants all of this conversation on the record.
Senator Kennedy. Let me say, what I am interested in is what
the relationship is between the detective and the committee.
The Chairman. You can ask him that if you desire, and it can be
a part of this record, since it could properly be a part of the record.
Senator Kennedy. As to what is in the memorandum, that is a
question of whether Senator Curtis or Mr. Manuel wants to place it
in the record. All I am trying to find out is what this detective is
now doing for the committee and what his relationship with the com-
mittee is. Mr. Manuel has informed me that to the best of his knowl-
edge, the only action taken by the detective was to reinterview this
witness, is that correct ?
Mr. Manuel. The one contact.
The Chairman. At his request and after he contacted him, he sug-
gested he do that.
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Ells arranged the conversation. Now let
me ask you, did you ever hear of Mr. Witherow ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20047
Senator Kjennedy. You do not know anything that he may be doing
for this committee in the State of Michigan ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. His name is completely unknown to you ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir.
Senator Kjennedy. A letter came in regard to a Mr. Witherow who
said he represented the McClellan committee in the Renda matter.
Do you know anything about that ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir. Senator, I did not quite complete this, and
I want to remove any inference that I am hiring private detectives
because I am not. This memo, as I said now, recited, and I didn't
know whether it was true, that Mr. Carr
Mr. Rauh. Wait a minute. This is being read no longer in response
to Senator Kennedy, but in an effort to get this into the record. I da
not understand Senator Kennedy to ask Mr. Manuel to read third-
hand hearsay that is derogatory to Mr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Chairman, on that, we have granted
wide latitude to counsel or associate counsel throughout the years of
the existence of this committee. They have recited facts and presented
charts of relationships and many other things without adhering to
the strict rules of evidence.
The Chairman. Yo do not want to put something in here. Senator,
now that reflects upon somebody, unless it is evidence. I know you do
not want to do that.
Mr. Manuel. I offered to go off the record, and I am trying to
satisfy Senator Kennedy.
The Chairman. Let us go off the record.
Senator Curtis. May I proceed?
Mr. Manuel. Is Senator Kennedy satisfied with my answer ? I had
not completed it.
Senator I^nnedy. You had not completed your answer?
Mr. Manuel. This memo recited that this detective, and he was a
detective, had interviewed Mr. Carr, and Mr. Carr said that he had
made certain contributions to the flower funds or kickbacks
Senator Kennedy. Let us get it clear, and I do not think we want
to attempt in any way to overstate and I am not expecting that you
are going to attempt to imply that I have asked you to read this mem-
orandum into the record.
I just asked you what you were doing with a private detective work-
ing for this committee.
Now, if in your answer you are attempting to go beyond that and
read into the record testimony taken 10 years ago by the private de-
tective, that is another matter. If you want to put that into the record
you can do it on your own responsibility.
Mr. Manuel. I have no interest in putting this in the record and
I am merely answering your question.
Senator Kennedy. You have answered my question as to the use
of the private detective and why you hired the private detective is
another question, and if you want to indicate that in the record, you
can go ahead and do it but do not do it in answer to my question.
Mr. Manuel. I did not hire a private detective.
Senator Curtis. I would like to be heard on that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Manuel has repeatedly said he did not hire a private detective.
20048 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Kennedy. I did not mean "hire." If I said it let me re-
tract it and let us read what I said. Mr. Chairman, I ask that we
read what I said.
(The reporter read the statement of Senator Kennedy.)
Senator Kennedy. I will retract the word "hire," and I put in the
words "secured the services of."
Senator Curtis. I still do not believe that that is a correct descrip-
tion of what happened. Here was a man who was a party to certain
transactions some time back. Mr. Manuel in his investigation runs
into information that leads him to that name.
He calls up that man and asks him about it. Now, that does not
make that detective rendering services for this committee.
The Chairman. He had a right to call up and ask him about it and
if the detective, if he is a detective, then took it upon himself or agreed
to go out and get information and deliver it or report what he found
out to Mr. Manuel, it simply means this :
He was doing it as a favor to Mr. Manuel, if he was not hired or
agree to be paid. I am not disturbed about someone cooperating with
a member of the committee or a member of the staff of the committee
to make inquiry and report back information.
But I am concerned about these reports coming in here that these
people are going out and saying, "I represent the Senate committee."
I am concerned about that and my judgment is, somebody is liable to
get into some serious trouble about it.
I don't know. This is the second one, and we have another one of
Mr. Venioa Johnson, a report liere that he has been out doing that.
He is not authorized to represent tlie committee. He is not on the com-
mittee staff and here is a letter before me now from another man that
gives information to that effect, Mr. Witherow, and I do not know
about it, but now may I say this to you :
If this is being done, if somebody is going out and talking in the
name of this committee without authority, my guess is that they are
getting on the borderline of criminal activities.
Senator Curtis. May I inquire, Mr. Chairman, this letter produced
this morning, is that Witherow ?
The Chairman. The letter is not from Witherow.
Senator Mundt. Wlio is the letter from ?
The Chairman. The letter is from Wilbur De Young.
Senator Curtis. Is he located in Toledo ?
The Chairman. From Detroit.
Senator Curtis. All of this hearing that I have had anything to
do
The Chairman. It says that a Mr. Sheridan infonned him that he
was Contacted by phone yesterday by Mr. Witherow, who represented
himself as an investigator for the McClellan committee and in ref-
erence to said lawsuit, "Sheridan informed me that he told Mv.
Witherow to contact the writer," and the writer writing in here, to
know if this man Witherow represents the committee, and so he would
know to receive him. '. 'v -
Senator Mundt. Did you mention a lawsuit ?
The Chairman. He refers to a lawsuit, and liere is the letter.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I would be very surprised if you
had received any complaints that anyone other than Mr. Manuel has
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20049
been employed to gather information that is being presented here in
this hearing, in response to this arrangement that we could have these
witnesses here.
The Chairman. I say, you can request anybody to get some informa-
tion and if he is willing to do it, he would have the right to do it,
but no man has a right to go out here and say, "I represent the Mc-
Clellan committee," just because he has been requested by a member
of the stalf to get information.
Senator Curtis. Have you any complaints that anyone did that in
connection with this matter that I am trying to present?
The Chairman. I did not know about this matter that you are
trying to present and this letter may refer to it.
Senator Mundt. This refers to a lawsuit and I do not know how
we are involved in a lawsuit, and he said he represents himself as
an investigator for the McClellan committee in reference to the said
lawsuit.
The Chairman. He is getting information regarding the lawsuit.
Mr. Rauh. We are aware of two complaints to that effect, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. The Chair is just making a statement. I am not
saying anyone is guilty now at the moment, and I am just saying if
such a thing is going on, someone is getting on the borderline of
trouble.
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Manuel stated he was unaware of this, and Sen-
ator Curtis did, and we have been informed of two such instances
where people not members of this committee represented themselves
as members of this committee.
The Chairman. Let us proceed now with the hearing, if we can,
and these matters may not go unnoticed, and they may engage the
serious attention of the committee, if they are true.
This is no threat. No one has the right to go out and say he
represents this committee unless he has official authority to do so.
Senator Curtis. I think the record should be clear because the last
2 days of this hearing, there has been a report in the local press of
what transpires here, and I have not given the press anything. I de-
clined to give a list of the witnesses and all of that sort of thing, but
I want it very clear that in response to my request that I could present
this information relating to Mr. Gosser, that had come to me, that
the only person who I have put to work is Mr. Manuel, and that we
have not contacted private detectives and asked them to do things,
or we have certainly not authorized anyone to speak that they repre-
sented this committee because Mr. Manuel and I have done all of
this work ourselves.
The Chairman. I have not said that you did and I have not said
anyone did it, but I am saying anyone who does it will have difficulty.
Senator Curtis. The local press seems to have a way of finding out
what goes on here in executive session, and they have'the last 2 days,
and they have a long stoiy about it. I do not want to see that accu-
sation in the press tomorrow.
Mr. GossER. Mr. Chainuan, could I say something here?
The Chairman, I say one way you can keep them from getting a
scoop is to put it in open hearings. I voted against open hearings,
notwithstanding the request, because I have said it was understood
20050 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
when we started out it would be in executive session. But there has
been more said about these executive sessions leading up to the hold-
ing of the hearings for testimony, there has been more of that in the
press, and I did not think that that was right.
I have been very unhappy about it because of the stuff that was
in the paper down in my btate, in Robert Allen's column, that might
give the implication that I was not in command up here at all as
chairman, and I was just being vetoed, so to speak.
Senator Mundt. On that point, I would like to say something, be-
cause I miderstood these were going to be executive hearings, and
I was a little bit amazed to read in the "Washington Post that someone
had given out the rollcall in the executive session.
I called the chairman and I thought that it was a prerogative of
the chairman if he elected to do so, and I was not going to be critical,
and Jolin said he did not know.
1 was recorded as abstaining, and I did not abstain. I voted
"present," and I was here. If we are going to leak this out, I think
they would leak it out accurately, and I was gomg to vote "present,'^
and I did not care whether this hearing was open or closed, but I
thought that was the proper thing to do.
It may be true that we can put this in open hearings and I am going
to vote in favor of it instead of voting "present" next time, because
I do not like these leaks that come out.
The Chairman. Wliat the Chair is saying is that I do not know
who is doing the leaking. I said to the press I would not tell them
that a vote was taken and a motion was made or anything, and I don't
know who did it.
The main thing about it now is when we have a committee of this
nature or any other, whenever it gets to where we cannot have an
executive session and the integrity of those sessions preserved and pro-
tected, then the committee is getting in a pretty bad way.
I say that without even implying that anyone did it, except as you
see it in the paper, that there have been some leaks and some state-
ments given out.
Now, I voted against public hearings for two reasons. The first was
that I had announced that we would have executive hearings and I was
going to start it that way. But if anyone gets any too unhappy about
leaks, and so forth, as a result of these executive sessions, we can
discontinue them.
Mr. Manuel. I don't want to have anyone think that I hired a de-
tective.
The Chairman. I didn't say that you had, but I said anyone who
goes out and represents that, without that authority, is on dangerous
ground.
Senator Kennedy. You did more than make a phone call.
Mr. Manuel. He never did call back.
Mr. GossER. Could I possibly have tlie floor for just one moment?
The Chairman. I will let you ask the Chair a question. You may
address a question to the Chair.
Mr. GossER. There are two questions, because there is an inference
about a leak, and I went out of here yesterday, and there was no one
can challenge what I said, because it was said in the paper, and I said
I understood you were going to have an executive session and it was a
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20051
secret meeting and I positively would make no comment and I walked
right down the hall, and I haven't made any comment.
The question about the leaks being made, the only leak that I know,
and it reads right here in the paper and it says :
The Republicans, through their counsel, Robert Manuel, had announced the
inquiry will deal, among other things —
and then it goes on and it cites the five things. This is right in the
paper.
Mr. Mantjel. That is very interesting, and I should like to know
who misrepresented that. I have said no such thing to anyone.
Mr. Rauh. Could we offer, in view of that, in view of this thing,
could we offer an AP story which I myself cut out of the paper yester-
day morning, sir, out of the Philadelphia Inquirer, of August 12, with
an AP story ?
The Chairman. Let me see it, and let us proceed with the interroga-
tion here.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Gosser, I started to ask you to tell me what
the Doehler Jarvis Council was, and you had started answering that.
Wlio makes up the council, the Doehler Jarvis Council ?
Mr. Gossp:r. Well, it is made up of the plants that are owned by the
Doehler Jarvis Corp.
Senator Curtis. From the standpoint of the union ?
Mr. Gosser. The workers in those plants.
Senator Curtis. What individuals are on the council ?
Mr. Gosser. What individuals are on the council, you say ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Gosser. On the council, I don't quite follow you. Everybody
who works in the plant as a member of the union are members of the
council in a sense. But they elect delegates that go to council meet-
ings.
Senator Curtis. Who goes to council meetings?
Mr. Gosser. You would have to furnish me the list. I wouldn't
know.
Senator Curtis. Do you have any relationship to the Doehler Jarvis
Council?
Mr. Gosser. I have a relationship with 117 wage-hour councils.
Senator Curtis. What is your relationship to that ?
Mr. Gosser. I am director of all of them.
Senator Curtes. You are the director ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And who are some of the other people on that coun-
cil?
Mr. Gosser. It might sound strange, but now I know every one of
them by Joe, Jim, and Pete, and that sort of thing.
Senator Curtis. Wliat is Pete's last name?
Mr. Gosser. I don't know; he works in the Batavia plant.
Are you trying — let me ask you. I want to be helpful to you. Are
you trying to get to Zvara and the New York investigation ? Is that
what you are trying to get to ?
Senator Curtis. I want to know, yes ; what Mr. Zvara's part in the
council is, and what yours is, and what Mr. Love's is.
36751— 60— pt. 58-
20052 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. I would like to ask the chairman to let me make one
little brief statement and then I will proceed and answer every ques-
tion that you ask me, if the chairman doesn't object.
I would like to say that you now are doing exactly what I said
in a large meeting when I referred to this committee. I referred
to you, and you take away from me my feeling that in America there
is any true democracy left, when a person goes before a grand jury
and he signs a waiver of immunity, and he is interrogated completely,
and all of the evidence is there and everything, and you are now going
to go back into that again — it seems to me that that is going pretty
far, but help yourself, and I just want to say that.
Senator Curtis. All I want to know is the operation of this council.
Mr. GossER. Mr. Zvara is the assistant director, prior to his dis-
charge by our union.
Senator Curtis. Were you the director and Zvara was the assistant
director?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Curtis. And what did Mr. Love have to do with it?
Mr. GossER. Mr. Love was an organizer.
Senator Curtis. Ernest Love was an organizer ?
Mr. GossER. Yes ; and he worked at the Doehler Jarvis plant.
Senator Curtis. Now, what does the council have to do, so far as
selecting or vetoing or indicating the employment of these services
such as the Charles Elliott Co. renders, in the Doehler Jarvis plant ?
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't know that. It would seem to me that if you
wanted to know, first of all, I would like to say this for your benefit,
Senator: There has been several arguments on this, and I suppose
different meanings argued different ways.
Our contract says that the management will have the right to
manage and conduct its business, and insofar as I am concerned, I have
always interpreted that to mean that the management could hire any-
body they wanted to, and they could engineer anything and they can
do anything they want to, but up until the time they tried to change
the working conditions of the workers who I represent or change
their rates of pay or anything, I haven't got anything to say about it.
But the point they tried to do that, I have the right to intercede
there and in behalf of the workere.
Senator Curtis. In protecting the workers' interests, you are con-
cerned with time and motion studies that might result in job elimi-
nations or things of that sort; isn't that correct?
Mr. GossER. I certainly would say I am interested in their working
conditions.
Senator Curtis. Yes ; and when a company undertakes an endeavor
of this kind, services rendered by the Charles Elliott Co., does the
Doehler Jarvis Council have anything to do with OK'ing or approv-
ing what concern shall do it ?
Mr. GossER. Well, I think the best way to answer it, as I have
already answered, what I understood lawfully the union's position is
under the contract. I think if you say that the management has the
right to manage and conduct its own business, in a contract, I think
it means just that, and therefore, I think the management has the
right to engineer anything they want or call in any consultant or do
anything they want to.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20053
Now, we are human, normal beings, and they assume a lot of things
and I think sometimes these councils get into the point where they
have the right to say "No" and they have the right to say "Yes," but
in the book that I keep, if the employer said, "You don't have a darn
thing to say about that," I would tell them that the employer is com-
pletely right until such a time as they change their contract, that they
don't have anything to say about it. I myself have never tried to
have anything to say about that.
Senator Curtis. I am not contending that the practice is wrong, but
is it true that when a company such as Doehler Jarvis undertakes to
bring in a service such as the Charles Elliott Co. extended to them,
that the council have something to say about selecting from a list of
such concerns that offer that service ?
Mr. GossER. Well, let me say this : Maybe you are trying to get to
something that I can't quite follow. First of all, knowing National
Lead Corp., any time they make up their mind the council doesn't
have the right, they will tell them, because National Lead is a pretty
hard company to do business with, as far as that goes.
Just how far they went, or how far they let them go, I don't knoAv,
and I don't get into that detail. If they get to where they are going
to have a strike or where they are negotiating an agreement, I help
them through it and try to settle it peacefully. I work very hard.
Senator, trying to resolve my problems in a peaceful sort of way. My
2'5 years of life will prove that in the American labor movement after
the first struggles.
Senator Curtis. The testimony here would indicate that in order
to carry out one of these time and motion surveys, that resistance on
the part of the workers makes it a very difficult thing, and the testi-
mony here also, by Mr. Dale, and the checks are in evidence, and I
have no objection to you looking at them
Mr. Gosser. What would I want to look at the checks for ?
Senator Curtis. That they paid in excess of $60,000 to the assistant
director and you are the director.
Mr. Gosser. Why did the New York grand jury give immunity to
Dale and Elliott and to the company? Why didn't they put Dale,
Elliott, and the company and Zvara all in jail, and it would have been
all right with me, Senator.
Senator Curtis. I don't know why they didn't.
Mr. Gosser. That is all I can answer.
Senator Curtis. What?
Mr. Gosser. I had nothing to do with it.
Senator CuTtTis. 'V^Tiat, if anything, did you know about this $63,000
payment ?
Mr. Gosser. I didn't know anything about it. In fact, I didn't
know anything about the $63,000. After Zvara talked with Walter
Reuther and Emil Mazey, and in my absence, my administrative as-
sistant sat in, I could be wrong now on this a few dollars, I think that
he said something like $34,000, and I never knew any otherwise than
$34,000 until — I can't remember when, but I am sure it was a long-
while after that.
Senator Mundt. Would it be right if he took $34,000 or wrong if he
took $63,000 ?
20054 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. I am not saying he was right if he took a penny, and
T said why did they give him immunity, if there is something wrong
lawfully, and I just want to say this, so that you and I won't misun-
derstand each other, because you have been very nice, and I would like
to say, if there was some unlawful act in what the Doehler Jarvis Co.
and Dale and Elliott — which was the two parts of the concerns and
Zvara and all of them did — if there was some unlawful act there, I
can't understand why they give anybody any immunity or anything,
and I think that he should have put all of them in jail, and as far as
I am concerned, I will say it without any reservation. I think any
person that represents the American worker, and takes one penny to
give the employer an in, I think he ought to be put in jail. But I
think that the employer that gives him that penny ought to be put in
with him.
I wouldn't share Walter's view of putting them in the same cell. I
think that would stink the cell up too bad, and they ought to separate
it a little bit.
Senator Curtis. Did I understand you to say that Mr, Zvara told
Walter Keuther that it was $34,000 ?
Mr. GossER. That is what I think, and I said I don't want
Senator Curtis. He declined to answer here, and we have the checks
here rmming over $60,000. Now, who got the balance ?
Mr. GossER. Well, you ask somebody.
Senator Curtis. I am asking you.
Mr. GossER. Who wrote the checks ?
Senator Curtis. The checks were all made to Peter Zvara.
Mr. GossER. Why don't you ask Peter Zvara ?
Senator Curtis. I did, and he took the fifth amendment, and he
is your assistant.
Mr. GossER. No, he isn't my assistant. The day he said that he
took that check he got fired. And you ought to know this.
Senator Curtis. When he took the checks, he was your assistant.
Mr. GossER. Senator, you ought to know this : That in the union, at
one time I had 115 fellows working for me, and they come from all
parts of the United States. It is just like people that might be on
your staff, and I don't know where they come from, but I imagine
they come from various parts of your State as far as that goes. So
they are given to me, and they go to work for me.
Now, I suppose I am liable to them for a certain point, as far as
that goes, but on a case of Zvara, w^ien Zvara, as I said yesterday here,
when the diecasters came into the UAW, I was opposed to the die-
casters coming into the UAW and I was outvoted on the international
executive board and they came into the UAW, and I was made their
director by a motion of the international executive board.
If you are trying to infer that I got any of that money from Zvara,
the grand jury records are very clear, and I told the prosecutor in
New York after dueling around with him for 3 or 4 days and all of
this 15-year- and 20-year- and 25-year-old stuff that you are bringing
up here right now, I told him right out, "I never got one penny of it."
I challenged him to prove it and I asked him to indict me and I
asked him to take me to court and try me. Now, a man can't do any
more than that, and it is in the record.
Senator Curtis. Some of this is in 1958.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20055
Mr. GossER. All right. I don't care when it is. I still didn't take
any of it or get any of it.
Senator Curtis. Wliat do you know about it ?
Mr. GossER. Nothing.
Senator Curtis. About this payment to Zvara ?
Mr, GossER. The first time I knew anything about it at all was
when Joe Mooney called me up and said that now Walter wanted, and
I think that he said Walter discharged Zvara because of the fact that
Zvara made an indication that he had gotten money, and I don't
want to be pinned down to the figure, but I thought it was around
$34,000.
Senator Curtis. What else do you know about the transaction ?
Mr. GossER. That is it.
Senator Curtis. You haven't talked to anyone else about it ?
Mr. GossER. I have had this from the New York prosecutor until
it comes out of my ears, if you want to talk about that.
Senator Curtis. I am talking about the union officials. Have you
talked to anyone else about this ?
Mr. GossER. If you are trying to infer that I voted contrary to the
rest of the international executive board
Senator Curtis. No. All I asked you was what other union people
have you talked to about this ?
Mr. GossER. Well, first of all, the average person doesn't even know
I am a vice president of the UAW, and I am not a guy to go around
and be gabbing all of the time, and so I don't know what you are
getting at. Why don't you help me with what you are getting at?
Senator Curtis. I asked you what other union people you have
talked to about this Zvara matter. Now, Zvara took this money and
there seems to be no question about it.
Mr. GossER. Now you are saying that, and I am not.
Senator Curtis. Well, it is here in the evidence.
Mr. GossER. All right.
Senator Curtis. You can look at his endorsement on the checks.
Mr. GossER. I don't want to see them, and I am not trying to be
judge or prosecutor of anybody.
Senator Curtis. They were paid, and I think very wrongfully, by
an employer, but the thing that the employer got in return was the
right for this time and motion study to go on, and in having that go
on peacefully, the Doehler Jarvis Council was an important factor,
and you are the director of that, and these checks were paid to your
assistant.
Now, my question is : What union people have you talked to about
this?
Mr. GossER. Senator, I love to answer, and you said a little bit more
than that, and so I want to answer it for you. The sound and tested
going rate by the General Motors Corp., which is the largest corpora-
tion in America, in automotive business, including the parts business
which Doehler Jarvis does, and they put out the pamplilet, and I
have it here, is $3.01 an hour. In the Doehler Jarvis plant the same
average is $3.83 an hour.
Now, would you think that they were paying—I negotiated this
agreement, and would you think that they were paying me 82 cents an
hour because they loved me ?
20056 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. I have asked you what other union people did you
talk to about Zvara getting this money ?
Mr, GossER. I don't know ; I am asking you to ti*y to refresh my
memory, and I don't know whether I talked to anybody, and I have
an opinion on it, if that is what you want. I don't know what you
are trying to get at.
Senator Curtis. I am merely asking you for the information, to
whom have you talked to about this Zvara matter ?
Mr. Gosser. I might have talked to a dozen guys.
Senator Curtis. Who were they ?
Mr. GossER. I don't know, I talked to "Walter about it.
Senator Curtis. "Whoelse?
Mr. GossER. I talked to Emil Mazey, and I talked to the whole in-
ternational executive board ; let us say that.
Senator Curtis. What did Emil Mazey say about this ?
Mr. Gosser. I don't know.
Senator Curtis. What did you say to him ?
Mr. GossER. All I got to do is, I said when they voted that they
were going to try him, I voted, and I said that inasmuch as there was
a question as to whether he was going to be tried by a civil court or
not, and this was in the newspaper and I am not telling you news,
that I thought that the union should refrain from trying him as to
whether he had done anything morally wrong, because it might be mis-
understood by somebody that would serve on the grand jury.
Now, this is my conception of due process. This is how I believe
people should be treated. He had already been fired, and there was no
argument there, and it was now whether we were going to kick him out
of the union, but Zvara himself sent in his union membei-ship and
everything else, and that ended it, and there was no reason for trying
him.
Senator Mundt. Will the Senator yield ?
Senator Curtis, I yield.
Senator Mundt. I am not completely familiar with the whole situa-
tion, and I would like to ask you a couple of questions in that con-
nection.
Do I understand that the executive board of the UAW, which would
be you and Walter Reuther and Emil Mazey, and how many more?
Mr.GossER, There are 25 of us altogether.
Senator Mundt. Do I understand that you had a sort of a hearing
or a trial or a proceeding of some kind ?
Mr. GossER. We had a hearing.
Senator Mundt, Involving Zvara ?
Mr, GossER. We had a hearing.
Senator Mundt, And that at that hearing
Mr. Gosser, He is now discharged.
Senator Mundt. All right. At this hearing the question arose, No.
1, is Zvara going to be stripped of some official duties ?
Mr. GossER. Oh, no.
Senator Mundt, And is he going to be kicked out ?
Mr. GossER. He was stripped of all duties and fired by Walter
Reuther and Emil Mazey and my administrative assistant the day he
admitted this.
Senator Mundt. At this hearing, then, the question was whether he
would be kicked out of the union ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20057
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. You had this hearing, and he testified ; did he ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Mundt. Yon just looked at the evidence that was available
from other sources ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And was a vote taken as to whether he was kicked
out of the union ?
Mr. GossER. There was a vote taken that we would put the trial
procedure of the constitution into effect, which meant try him to see
whether he was guilty of conduct unbecoming a union member, and
should be expelled from the union.
Senator Mundt. And a vote was taken on that ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Twenty-five voters were there; 25 people par-
ticipated.
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't say every board member was at that meeting.
Senator Mundt. A quorum of the 25 ?
Mr. GossER. There was a quorum.
Senator Mundt. What was the vote — unanimous ?
Mr, GossER. All of them voted exceptmg me, and I voted against it.
Senator Mundt. All kicking him out of the union except you ?
Mr. GossER. No. You are saying that wrong, and you are trying
to add some wrong words there.
Senator Mundt. You thought he should be kicked out of the union ?
Mr. GossER. Senator, I would like to say this to you: You know
as we gTow older we shouldn't try to say things so fast. Up until now
I thought you were conducting yourself fine, and now I am detecting
something else there.
Senator Mundt. There was a vote taken.
Mr. GossER. I said that I felt as an individual that inasmuch as
there was a question as to whether Zvara was going to be tried by a
jury, that I didn't think that we in the union should try him for moral
conduct when he was going to be tried for violating a law, because
there might be somebody in the jury that might say, "Well, the UAW
finds him guilty, and he must be guilty," and I have my own personal
feelings.
Now, Senator, regardless of what might happen to me today, I am
entitled to my feelings as a human being. Nobody will change me;
nobody will change me. There are a lot of people have tried.
Senator Mundt. Back to my question now, after the hearing was
held, I asked you if a vote was taken and you said "Yes."
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. And I said the vote was unanimous.
Mr. GossER. And I said I voted against it.
Senator Mundt. You voted "No."
Mr. GossER. But you inferred to kick him out.
Senator Mundt. That is what I thought the vote was for.
Mr. GossER. The vote was to trying him under the constitution.
The Chairman. Was he to be tried ?
Mr. GossER. To find out whether his conduct was unbecoming a
union member, and, of course, at that point then the trial committee,
the international executive board in our constitution has nothing to
do with that.
20058 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. It was whether you would indict him or not. That
is what it amounted to ?
Mr. GossEp. I think so ; yes.
Senator Mundt. What I am trying to find out is what the motion
was that you voted on.
Mr. GossER. I believe that we should have waited until after the
trial, that we shouldn't help indict him.
Senator Mundt. I am trying to find out what the motion was that
you voted against. I thought you told me
Mr. GossER. That he should be tried by a trial committee.
Senator Mundt. The motion was that he should be tried by a trial
committee under your constitution ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Mundt. And you voted "No," and the others voted "Yes" ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Mundt. At what time did he get kicked out of the union ?
Mr. Gosser. He got kicked out of the union long before this. No ;
kicked out of the union; wait a minute, I am wrong. He sent in a
letter to the international secretary-treasurer or the president wherein
he tendered his card, and I think that he said, or I don't remember
the exact words, I suppose we could produce a copy of it.
Senator Mundt. You mean he resigned ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. That was after this meeting that you are talking
about now ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. About how long after ?
Mr. GossER. I would say
Senator Mundt. You can supply it for the record ?
Mr. GossER. Yes. I can get that for you.
Senator Mundt. All right.
Mr. GossER. I would assume a month or two.
Senator Ervin. I wonder if Senator Curtis would yield to me to
ask something on this point to clarify the thing.
As I understand it, or infer from your testimony, the charge was
made that Zvara, or rather, from your testimony, you were informed
by your administrative assistant that he had attended a meeting at
which Zvara was questioned by Walter Reuther as president of the
UAW, as to whether he, Zvara, had been taking this money from the
EDiottCo.?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Ervin. And your administrative assistant informed you
that Zvara had admitted to Walter Eeuther that he had taken money
from the Elliott Co., which as you recall your administrative assist-
ant sold you amounted to some 30,000-odd dollars ?
Mr. GosSER. That is correct.
Senator Ervin. Now, you knew nothing about that meeting except
what you were informed either by him or others.
Mr. GossER. I was asked to come to the meeting, but I was in nego-
tiations and didn't want to break them off and they thought it best
not to.
Senator Ervin. So you sent your admiiiistrative assistant ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
niPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20059
Senator Ervin. And your administrative assistant informed you
that after Zvara admitted at that time that he had received the
money from the Elliott Co., Walter Reuther, as president of the UAW,
removed Zvara or informed Zvara that he was removed from his
union offices.
Mr. GossER. Right then and there ; yes.
Senator Ervin. Then several days later, your executive board had
a meeting which you attended.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Ervin. And the question came up before your executive
board as to whether or not Zvara should be tried by a trial committee.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Ervin. On two charges, first, the charge of having received
this money, and second, the charge that he had failed to comply
with the request that he voluntarily appear before the New York
grand jury.
Mr. GossER. Oh, no ; because of his moral conduct.
Senator Ervin, The question came up
Mr. GossER. I think that you are right, and I think there were three ;
that was in it, too.
Senator Erwn. And you had a vote on the question, and the ma-
jority voted that there should be a trial committee set up to try him
on these charges.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Erven. And you voted against that motion because you
felt that the matter was being investigated by the grand jury in
New York, and there was a possibility that the grand jury might re-
turn an indictment against Zvara, in connection with receipt of this
money, and you felt that there might be some danger of prejudicing
his right to a fair trial in the courts if the trial committee proceeded
with the hearing before the question of whether the grand jury would
indict him was settled.
Mr. GossER. I would say that you. Senator, said it very clearly and
exactly as it happened, just about exactly.
Senator Ervin. And you either voted by yourself or with the minor-
ity against the action taken by the executive board.
Mr. GossER. I voted by myself, because I never want to be a part
of judging someone.
Senator Ervin. Now after the executive board voted to set up the
trial committee, a trial committee was set up, was it not ?
Mr. GossER. Yes ; they were in the process of setting up the trial
committee when Mr. Zvara sent in his card, and his resignation.
Senator Ervin. In other words, when he was given notice to appear
before the trial committee and answer the charges, which the ma-
jority of the executive board had ordered be preferred, he then sent in
his resignation as a union member ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Ervin. That is all.
Mr. GossER. There is a question in my mind as to whether the trial —
I don't think the trial committee was set up yet but it was in the
process of being set up.
Senator Ervin. When charges were served on him ?
20060 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ervin. Then do you know when it was that he resigned
and can you give us the date ?
Mr. GossER, I would say it was somewliere in the neighborhood — I
think the chairman has indicated and I don't have to be specific to the
day, and so I would say it was somewhere between 6 weeks and 2
months from the time that he was discharged until the time he sent this
letter in.
The Chairman. Discharged from the offices he held ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
Senator Ervin. He was discharged first by Walter Eeuther when he
confessed that he had received the money, and then Walter Reuther's
action in that respect was confirmed by your executive board at the
same meeting at which they voted to prefer charges ?
Mr. Gosser. That was^ the unanimous vote, and there were two
votes taken, and the discharge was unanimous.
Senator Ervin. You say it was somewhere in the neighborhood of
between a month or 2 months from the time ?
Mr. GossER. I think between 6 weeks and 2 months.
Senator Ervin. After he made the confession, until he sent in his
resignation as a union member ?
Mr. Gosser. That is right.
Senator ER\aN. In other words, you do not have authority to expel
a union member without a trial ?
Mr. Gosser. That is right. Our constitution provides that we have
to set up a trial committee, which is made up of the membership, and
our international doesn't have the right to try any member.
Senator Ervin. In other words, you have the authority or the
president and the executive board could remove a union officer from
office
Mr. Gosser. Pending trial.
Senator Ervin. Pending trial, if they thought his conduct war-
ranted it?
Mr. Gosser, That is right.
Senator Ervin. But they would not have the right to expel him from
membership in the union itself.
Mr. Gosser. No one has that right except the trial committee, and
then the trial committee has to be upheld in our international con-
vention.
Senator Mundt. I don't want any speculative answers on the part
of the witness, because he was recalling from memory to invalidate
the earlier agreement which we made that you were going to supply
from your records, when you look them up, the date that Walter
Reuther discharged him from his office, and the date on which you
had this vote on which you voted in the negative, and the date when
he sent in his card.
You are going to supply those for the record, specifically, as I
understand it.
Mr. Rauh. I am making a note of it, but I would like to point out.
Senator Mundt, that I think the first part of that is all available, in
those administrative letters, and I would suggest that they be made
a part of the record. I supplied the staff with that.
The Chairman. Do you have these documents here that would
verify the dates of these things ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20061
Mr. Manuel. Thej^ were circulated, Mr. Chairman, and they are not
in the record. I have a copy of them. I know they were circuLated
in here.
Senator Mundt. The simplest way is to provide the dates for the
record and then go on with the show.
The Chairman. I am trying to get them, if you have the documents
here to show them. I am trying to get it and insert it in the record
now.
Mr. Rauh. I am looking at this circular. They are here, sir.
Senator Mundt. All three dates ?
Mr. Rauh. Not the third date, I don't believe, but the first two are.
Senator Mundt. What are the dates ?
Mr. Rauh. I am reading now from UAW administrative letter of
April 12, and it starts :
At a meeting ou the morning of April 7, in Solidarity House, I had for the
first time the opportunity to discuss personally with Mr. Peter Zvara certain
matters —
and there is a letter signed by Walter Reuther, and this is the date
of the discharge.
Senator Mundt. He was discharged the same day ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes, and this letter is evidence of that.
Senator Mundt, The date of the meeting we have been discussing
here for the last half hour.
Mr. GossER. What the Senator wants, as I understand, is the date
that he actually sent in the letter.
Mr. Rauh. I have that in the second letter, which is a letter of
June 3, 1959, from Walter Reuther, and it states :
The international executive board upheld by action at an emergency session
on April 9, 1959, in Washington, D.C., and also voted to file charges against Mr.
Zvara, and place him on trial under articles 29 and 30 of the UAW constitution.
Now I have the third date. It says:
On April 14 and May 14, Mr. Zvara was notified of the charges against him
and of his rights under the UAW constitution, but failed to appear or send a
representative to the international executive board meeting on May 26, to par-
ticipate in the selection of a trial committee. Instead, Mr. Zvara sent a letter
to all members of the international executive board dated May 22 in which he
viciously attacks me, the international executive board, and the democratic trial
procedure in the UAW constitution, and in his letter Mr. Zvara refuses to appear
hefore any properly selected trial committee and voluntarily terminates his
jnembership in the UAW.
So that is the third date.
The Chairman. Just a moment. Now a question has arisen about
this being turned down yesterday, and you have been asked to supply
the dates, ilre you able to say from this, does that refresh your
memory now so you can testify as to those dates?
Mr. GossER. Those are the dates. Senator.
The Chairman. That refreshes your memory, and the docmnent
will not be made evidence, but if you, from that, refresh your memory,
and you say those dates are correct, then I accept it.
Mr. GossER. Those dates are correct.
The Chairman. Now you don't have the third date.
Mr. GossER. Yes ; the third date is in there.
The Chairman. Is that in there ?
Mr. GossER. Yes.
20062 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Now have we all three dates, the date he was dis-
charged, and the date of the meeting, and the date he resigned ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, We have all of three of them and the record is
clear ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Church. Mr. Gosser, I think that your testimony this
morning, and your response to the inquiries put to you by Senator
Ervin, has certainly made a record with respect to the action that was
taken in the union in discharging Mr. Zvara, and that ultimately
led up to his resignation from the union itself. But I would like to
ask you one or two questions with regard to a matter that came up yes-
terday as to why the union did not conduct the trial proceedings
against Mr. Zvara.
In that connection, I want to read to you two statements that ap-
pear to have been made by Walter Keuther in this administrative
letter. They are as follows :
Since I discharged Mr. Zvara as an international representative, and since
he has voluntarily terminated his membership in the UAW, Mr. Zvara's ties with
our union have been completely severed, and he can no longer serve in any
capacity anyvrhere in our union.
Although the international executive board had prepared to proceed to set in
motion the democratic trial procedure, it was decided by the international
executive board that no practical purpose vrould be served because Mr. Zvara's
action terminating his UAW membership fulfilled the maximum penalty v?hich
the trial committee could impose.
Now you are familiar with the constitution of the UAW ; are you
not?
Mr. GossER. Yes, I am. Senator.
Senator Church. The first question I would like to ask is this : Is
it so, that the trial committee, had a trial been held, could have im-
posed no greater penalty than having disbarred Mr. Zvara from mem-
bership in the union ?
Mr. GossER. That was the greatest penalty it could have imposed.
Senator Church. So that even though the board might have had
continuing jurisdiction to try Mr. Zvara, assuming that to be so, it
could have done no more than Mr. Zvara did by his own action ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Church. Did you understand my question ?
Mr. GossER. I would like to get that over again.
Senator Church. Since Mr. Zvara had already resigned, and since
the maximum penalty that could have resulted from the trial would
have been to remove him from the union, then there was no practical
reason to try him following his resignation, assuming that the trial
court would have had jurisdiction to do so ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, we discussed that and the board felt that the only
thing that could be gained by that, because nothing more could have
happened to Zvara, and all we could have done is embarrass his two
kids that were in school, and we didn't see any reason for pursuing
that, with just one newspaper story after another.
Senator Church. Now let me ask you this: Isn't it also a very
serious question as to whether or not the trial court could have had
any jurisdiction to try Mr. Zvara after he had terminated his member-
ship in the imion ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20063
Mr. GossER. It seems to me if he would have gotten a lawyer, there
would have been quite a long hassle as to whether we could proceed
there.
Senator Church. In other words
Mr. GossER. He was no longer any part of us, and, therefore, how
can you try ?
Senator Church. It is essentially a fraternal organization, isn't it,
and the Elks Club can conduct a trial proceeding against an Elks mem-
ber, but if the member resigns from tlie Elks, then the tribunal has no
further jurisdiction.
to be no purpose to be served by continuing with a court proceeding,
once Mr. Zvara had resigned from the union.
Mr. GossER. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Now Mr. Gosser
Mr. Gosser. Before you ask me a question. Senator Curtis, I would
like to make one inference here, because there has been so many ques-
tions asked this morning.
You made an inference, or at least I think on that record, that you
had $34,000 worth of checks, but there was $60,000 received or some-
thing like that.
Senator Curtis. The checks run over $60,000.
Mr. Gosser. I was going to say, because so far as I Imow, Zvara
said that all of the money he received, he received by checks, and I
didn't w^ant the wrong inference left here.
Senator Kennedy. I think the inference was that you said it was
$34,000, and it was $60,000, and you said it was $34,000 in discussion
with Walter Keuther, and then Senator Curtis said, where did the
difference go, and I think the mistake was in your statement that you
recalled that the amount was $34,000, when actually it was over $60,000.
Mr. Gosser. You are right, Senator.
The Chairman. It could very well have been $34,000 that he got, to
his part of it, if there was someone else in on the deal, and it may be
that he told Walter Reuther that he got $34,000 as his part of it, and
you don't know,
Mr. Gosser. I don't know what he got.
The Chairman. I can understand how the discrepancy, and I think
it is $69,000 by checks, and if he was getting half of it in a shakedown,
or commission, or whatever it was, he kept saying according to the
testimony here, he had to divide with the boys or somebody, and now if
he was getting half of it, then $34,000 that he got would be approxi-
mately half of the $69,000 that the checks represent.
You have testified that you got no part of it.
Mr. Gosser. I would like to read this, Senator.
The Chairman. Just a moment. You testified that you got no part
of any of it.
Mr. Gosser. I testified that I got no part of it and if you don't
mind, I would like to read this very short affidavit.
The Chairman. You got no part of any of it and you didn't know
the transaction was even going on.
Mr. Gosser. That is right.
The Chairman. And you had no information about it whatsoever
until it was disclosed to Walter Reuther.
20064 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. GossER. That is correct.
The Chairman. Now you may read your statement.
Mr. GossER. This is an affidavit :
Peter Zvara, being duly sworn, deposes and says that he resides in Sylvania
County, that the foregoing statement is being made of his own free will and
volition, and the affidavit further states that at no time did he ever pay over ta
or give any money or moneys of anything or any value to any person or persons,
and more specifically to Richard Gosser, which arose out of the employment of
affiant, participation, negotiations, collective bargaining, or otherwise, or in any
manner whatsoever with employers and employees, and other activities.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Zvara was here and asked about these
transactions, and he took the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Rauh produces Mr. Zvara's statement
for Mr. Gosser to read, after Mr. Zvara has taken the fifth amend-
ment, wherein Mr. Zvara does testify and says that no one got it.
Now, I do not think that that is proper procedure here. Mr. Zvara
was asked if anybody got it and he took the fifth amendment. Now,
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Gosser has a right to defend himself, now, and
he certainly has a right to present anything in answer to these ques-
tions that would substantiate or corroborate the testimony that he
gives directly.
He says he didn't get any of it, and now he says this fellow that got
the money has made an affidavit saying that he didn't give Gosser any
of it, and I think that that is all right.
Mr. GoERLicH. The affidavit
The Chairman. I think as a matter of fairness, if he has an affi-
davit from Zvara, he has a right to say "I have it here," where he says
he got none of it, notwithstanding that he took the fifth amendment.
Now, I don't know who is telling the truth.
Senator Curtis. I would like to go on, because I think that we can
finish.
Mr. Gosser, who else was designated officers in the Doehler Jarvis
Council besides you as the director and Zvara as the assistant or as-
sociate director, or codirector ?
Mr. Gosser. The assistant director.
Senator Curtis. Are there any other officers ?
Mr, Gosser. Yes, there is a president, and a secretary-, and a
treasurer.
Senator Curtis. Who is president of it ?
Mr. Gosser. Would you let me submit those names to you ?
Senator Curtis. Is Ernest Love the president ?
Mr. Gosser He is none of them.
Senator Curtis. Now, I think it is rather strange that here these
payments are made and they could have resulted in favorable action
on the part of the Doehler Jarvis Council that would liave permitted
Charles Elliott Co. to proceed with their work. Great sums of money
are involved. You are the director.
Now, had you delegated to Mr. Zvara your duties and responsibili-
ties in this? .
Mr. Gosser. Well, I think it is better answered by saynig this here,
that if you were chairman of as many councils as I am, you would
recognize the fact that you can't be at all of them. There are some
times on a weekend, there are eight of them going on, and one might
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20065
be in Atlanta, one might be in Cleveland, and one might be in Chicago,
and one might be in New York, and one might be in Milwaukee, and
now if you will tell me how I do make them all, I would be very glad
to do it. Some of the fellows want to know why I don't make them
all, but I just can't make them. Senator.
Senator Curtis. But this was right there in Toledo.
Ml'. GossER. He has been furnished to me as an assistant and I make
one and they make the rest of them, and I always try to pick out what
I think is the most important and the most urgent, and as I said very
clearly here today, I just can't say this plain enough for you, because
it might possibly reach you : In the beginning of this movement, I
struggled as hard as anyone to build it, but during the course of my
life in this movement since it has been accepted by, in my opinion,
the great majority of the people of our society — the right-to- work
bill in Ohio proved that— but I have dedicated myself to trying my
hardest to have good management-labor relations.
You raise one ciuestion, and that is tlie question as to an inference
as to what this company got by that. Right here, and certainly you
don't think I run General Motors, and right here is General Motors'
book, and they showed that their top average earnings after every-
thing is $3.01 and right here, and I submit both of theni for evidence,
is Doehler-Jarvis, the one you are talking about, and it shows $3.83,
or 82 cents more an hour.
Senator Curtis. We have gone into that, but now, Mr. Gosser, the
fact remains that your assistant director did get this money, and he
testified under oath, and he admitted to Walter Reuther that he got
part of it, and it has also been testified here that he asked people from
whom he got the money to have something to show as to how much
was coming, because he had to go back and show the boys.
Mr. Gosser. I don't know anything about that.
Senator Curtis. This happens with your assistant director.
Mr. Gosser. I don't know anything about that, Senator, and one of
my assistant directoi^s might be beating his wife right now and that
isn't my fault.
Senator Curtis. But that isn't a union matter. That isn't some-
thing that your assistant does.
Mr, GossER. There is a question as to whether he got a finder's fee,
and whether it is lawful or not, and it seems to me that the courts
ought to determine that, and I don't want to be judge or jury over
anybody.
i realize that there is going to be a judgment day, and I have to
face it. But so far as I am concerned, I just want to say one very
plain, simple thing, and I think it concludes it. I don't want to say
who Zvara had to show anything to, and what he had to do, or any-
thing else. I have said under oath to you. Senator, as nice as I can,
and I have tried to be nice here, I think you and I seem to be hav-
ing this hassle and I think I can understand or at least I have
my opinions and I suppose you have your opinions as to why you
want to pursue this here, but I just want to say to you that I have
said under oath that I did not get any of this money, and unless I
am wrong, there is now a procedure for you to turn this over or turn
it back — I have been before the grand jury on it, and I went there
voluntarily, and I waived immunity, to prove that I didn't get any
20066 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
of it, and what do I do ? Do I shoot myself because I can't convince
somebody ?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Gosser, the fact remains that for official union
activity of some kind, your assistant got this money, and you have also
stated under oath that you couldn't remember who all you talked to
about it, and you can't remember what you said to them, nor what
they said to you.
Mr. Gosser. You are speaking of one of 70 assistants, and not an
assistant.
Senator Curtis. But here is the thing
Mr. Gosser. I am sure we didn't talk about whether he was going
to get any money off the Elliott Co., and this is what you are pursuing,
and this is what the prosecutor in New York pursued.
Senator Curtis. When this came to light, and your assistant got
this money and he comes in here and he takes the fifth amendment.
Mr. Gosser. Now don't say my assistant. He isn't my assistant now.
Senator Curtis, You were the director and he was the assistant.
Mr. Gosser. But he has been discharged, and you can say my ex-
assistant.
Senator Curtis. When this happened he was. The normal and
natural thing for you to do would be to find out. What about it ?
Mr. Gosser. What about what ?
Senator Curtis. These transactions, and you come here under oath,
and you can't even remember who you talked to about it, and what
was said.
Mr. Gosser. I talked to who about it? I told you I talked to the
whole international executive board about it, and I don't know whether
you are sitting up there with some one guy that I forgot or something
the way you are acting and I am sure that I talked to the whole inter-
national executive board and I talked to my administrative assistant,
and I have a great question in my mind, Senator.
I have a great question in my mind as to a finder's fee, and I don't
want to say this to you wrong, but at 58 years old I am not going to
change my way of life for nobody. I have had two heart attacks,
and I am willing to meet my maker tomorrow, and I am not going to
be the person that judges Zvara, and at the point where Zvara says
he took all of this money in cash, and he put it all in the bank, and
he paid his income tax and everything, there is a great question in
my mind as to whether Zvara thought he was doing something right
or wrong.
Senator Curtis. The fact remains, the rights of the workers were
involved here.
Mr. Gosser. The rights of the workers were not involved there.
These workers are 82 cents an hour higher than General Motors.
Senator Curtis. You told us that, but the rights of the workers were
involved.
Mr. Gosser. How ?
Senator Curtis. It was your assistant, and you treat it very casually
here.
Mr. Gosser. ^Yhat do you mean, treat it casually ?
Senator Curtis. Yes, you do.
I asked who you talked to about it, and you can't remember.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20067
Mr. GossER, Wlien the people in your State reject and you are no
longer Senator, and you have lost your job, will you call me up and
tell me whether that is taking it lightly or not? After Zvara was fired
and lost his job and had been disgraced in the city and his kids went
through hell, I didn't think that was taking it lightly.
Senator Curtis. I think that it is taking it lightly.
Mr. GossER. What am I supposed to do?
Senator Curtis. Let me finish. Your assistant got this money, and
you pretend now that you do not know what happened, and you did
not reveal any conversation that you had with anybody, and assuming
that your first notice of it was after it came to light. The natural and
normal thing for you to do was to find out what are the facts of this
transaction, but you pretend not to know anything about it, and it went
on with your assistant.
Mr. GossER. Wait a minute. Senator, if you are trying to infer
have I tried to find out the facts, I have asked the company what the
devil they hired such an outfit as this for, and I have asked the com-
pany that.
Senator Curtis. But I also asked you.
Mr. GossER. And the company tells me, and should I go back and
call the company a liar, they tell me that they didn't know that this
engineering concern was going to give anybody any money. What
should I do with the company ?
Senator Curtis. You also stated, Mr. Gosser ■
Mr. GossER. You said did I talk to anybody in the union about it and
let us get what you said. I have talked to a lot of people other than
the union.
Senator Curtis. And even though it involved your assistant, you
are not giving this committee any information as to what took place
there.
Mr. GossER. Wliat information can I give you ? If you will tell me
what you want me to give you, I will give it to you.
Senator Curtis. I want all of the information that you have before
this.
Mr. GossER. I will give it to you.
Senator Curtis. I want all of the information that you have about
this.
Mr. GossER. Well, all of the information I have, you have. I was
before the New York grand jury.
Senator, I want to say this to you, and I want to say it in all due
respect to your job, that you have the minutes of the New York grand
jury, and that prosecutor tried every way in the world, and this goes
with a little joke if the chairman might say this, my attorney told me,
you make up your own mind, you are going to get indicted, and you
have 1,000 to 1 chance, and they made up their minds, and I said
"Well, I always wanted a 1,000 to 1 chance and I think that I will sign
that waiver of immunity and go in there and get myself indicted and
see whether I can beat it," and Scotti got mad because I said that.
Now, I didn't mean it in the respect that Scotti said it, but I meant
it in the respect that I had not done a darn thing wrong. Now the
prosecutor went all of the way, all through this hearing, and I knew
nothing of it. I was called up and told of it, and now Elliott Co.
didn't tell me, and I was mad. I was very mad, and a lot worse than
36751— 60— pt. 58 11
20068 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
you would infer that you are to think that some corporation had done
something like this, because there is one thing about it. You see,
Senator, I gi^ew up in the old days of this, and I grew up when the
employer did pay off the fellows, and I grew up when Bart Fury
was a Pinkerton detective, and he was on our committee in the plant,
and I grew up all through this. I went to this company, and I just
raised the devil, and all the company said was that we know nothing
of this, and this is a complete sui-prise to us. What else can I do?
You tell me and I will do it.
Senator Curtis. I want to say this, you are not the first labor leader
that has come before this committee who has had power to perform
the quid pro quo in a situation that resulted in somebody taking some
money, and their subordinates take the fifth amendment and then they
say they did not know anything about it.
Mr. GossER. Let's you and I get down that first one word there. I
graduated out of the reform school and you brought that out this
morning.
Senator Curtis. I did not.
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir ; you did.
Senator Curtis. I was not going into that, and you insisted on
telling it.
Mr. GossER. Let us talk a little plainer to me. TVliat did you say,
Senator. Say it over again, plainly, that one word, and let us get
out of that one word, because I don't understand it.
Senator Curtis. I used the expression "quid pro quo."
Mr. GossER., What does that mean ?
Senator Curtis. This money was paid by Charles Elliott Co. for a
purpose, and the purpose was so that they could carry on these time
and motion studies, and in order to do that they had to have at least
the goodwill, if not the cooperation, of the Doehler Jarvis council.
Mr. GossER. If that it what you are saying
Senator Curtis. And you are the director of that ?
Mr. Gosser. Well, that is just fuie, and now I have a lot of them
here.
Senator Curtis. Your assistant comes in here and takes the fifth
amendment and you say that you don't know anything about it. Now,
even if you knew nothing about it until it was disclosed, in your posi-
tion you owe it to your workers to find out about it, and I think that
you ought to tell this committee what you know about it.
Mr. Gosser. I have told you everything I know about it. "Wliat do
you want me to do ; do you want me to go and raise the rates higher ?
Senator Curtis. Who got the money ?
Mr. Gosser. Do you want me to put the Doehler Jarvis Co. out of
business and is that what you want me to do?
Senator Curtis. I want to know who got the money.
Mr. Gosser. Wliy don't you ask Zvara, or ask the Elliott Co., or ask
the company. I never got it, and I never saw it, and I never knew of
it, and so how could I tell you that ?
Senator Curtis. All right ; did you find out afterwards who got it ?
Mr. Gosser. I have never found out anything about it. I told you
I went to the company and they claimed no knowledge of it.
Senator Curtis. "VVlio was Zvara referring to when he said that he
would have to give this information to the boys ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20069
Mr. GossER. Well, why don't you ask that of Zvara ?
Senator Curtis. I did, and I asked your assistant and he takes the
fifth amendment.
The Chairman. He said he knows nothing and whether he is tell-
ing the truth or not is a matter of mine or anyone to make up their
own mind, but this man is swearing that he did not know and he
does not know, and I have asked him over and over again and again
and I will ask you. Did you get any of this money ?
Mr. GossER. Positively no.
Senator Curtis. Did you know the money was being paid ?
Mr. GossER. I positively never knew of it.
Senator Curtis. Did you ask or had you heard of it, after you
found out, did you go to the company and try to get information ?
Mr. GossER. I was real mad, and I went to the company, and I am
sure if you bring the president of the company in here he will attest
to it.
Senator Curtis. Did you take it up with Zvara, and ask him
whether he got the money and what he did ?
Mr. GossER. I have talked to Zvara several times, and Zvara told
me that he took the money hhnself , and as I stated before the com-
mittee, Zvara told me that he didn't think he was doing anything
wrong. He put it all in the bank and he said his bank account could
show it, and he paid his income tax on it, and everything else, and to
him it was a finder's fee. Zvara is a funny sort of a guy, and maybe
I believed this, and I am not going to challenge him. There is an-
other person someday who will.
Senator Curtis. As far as you know, this man got the money, Zvara,
and kept the money, and he says now that he kept it all ?
Mr. GossER. I could say one thing, if the fellow could say something
in a sporting sort of way, I have known Zvara for quite a few years,
and if you can get a nickel otf of Zvara, you are doing good.
The Chairman. I am willing to go on with this, but if you know
anything in the world, you have not told us, tell it.
Mr. Gosser. I don't know a thing about it. The Senator raised one
question, if I might, Mr. Chairman, and you raised a question that
they had to pay this. Eight here it is a corporation, which is another
big parts plant, and they had at different times time study people in
there, and why didn't they have to get somebody to OK it, and the
Toledo scale from time to time has had somebody in there, and why
didn't they have to get somebody's OK. I could set here and name
plant after plant, under my jurisdiction.
The Chairman. In other words, they did not have to get the OK
from the union, is that what you are saying ?
Mr. GossER. If they actually don't want to talk to the union, they
don't have to, because our contract says that the company will have
the right to manage and conduct its own business, and certainly at that
ponit, It means that the management has the right to use a consultant
concern if it wants to, and if the management is so weak they can't
say to the union, be quiet, then I feel quite sorry for the management.
Senator Church. Will you yield for a question ?
Senator Curtis. I am, but I'want to iinisli this up.
Senator Church. I have been here for 3 days now listening to this
hearmg, and so far the only thing that has been revealed in this hear-
20070 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ing is that a man by the name of Zvara got some commissions, for
presumably getting some business for a New York company.
Zvara was dismissed and discharged from his position and later
resigned from the union after formal charges were brought against
him by the union. That is all the evidence that has been presented
thus far.
Is there any positive evidence that you have that you are going to
present, that v.ill tend to link Zvara's conduct with Mr. Gosser or
with the other members of the UAW, international union?
Senator Curtis. That depends upon what the witness answers.
Senator Churcpi. Well, do you have assembled and intend to bring
forward witnesses who in your opinion v/ill so testify, or do you have
documents which will tend to link Zvara's conduct with the UAW, or
with Mr. Gosser ?
Senator Curtis. I told you, it will depend upon what the witness'
answers are.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to get through, and I have
an appointment at 1 o'clock.
Senator Curtis. Has Mr. Zvara received any pay, directly or in-
directly from any union source since he was discharged ?
Mr. Gosser. So far as I know, and I am speaking of the UAW now,
none.
Senator Curtis. None from any part of the UAW ?
Mr. Gosser. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. None from any flower fund ?
Mr. Gosser. No.
Senator Curtis. Has his wife been paid anything ?
Mr. Gosser. No. I don't think that we should take Zvara's wife
into this, and I don't think she has been paid anything at any time.
She is a very fine woman.
Senator Curtis. I am talking about something in lieu of wages.
Mr. Gosser. Not by the UAW.
Senator Curtis. Then, Mr. Zvara, have you
Mr. Gosser. Now wait a minute. I am Mr. Gosser. Let us not
make me the other guy at this point in life.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Gosser, this does not relate to Mr. Zvara, but
it relates to your conduct of union affairs in the Toledo area, and did
you ever by implication or any words, threaten that if people did not
follow a certain course of conduct that they might receive physical
injury?
Mr. Gosser. Senator, I am going to answer that in this way : You
have about seven or eight witnesses out there, that are afraid of day-
light, not alone dark, and they are always saying that. I can say
with no reservations that if you can in any way prove any evidence
that I have at any time created any physical liarm to any person who
did not follow and believe in the things that I believe in, you certainly
have tlie right to pursue the necessities you have to, because I want to
say one thing to you, Senator, that there are a lot of things, and I want
to make this point clear, because I have never really voted a straight
ticket, and I want to also make that clear — I might disagree very
strongly with you this morning but at my age I am a funny sort of a
guy. I would" give my life for your right to say what you believe in.
That goes for everybody.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20071
Senator Curtis. What is the answer to my question ?
Mr. GossER. Tlie answer is certainly no, and if I would give my
life for you to say anything you wanted to, then the answer is that
I wouldn't create physical harm to anybody.
Senator Curtis. You have never used any such threats ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Curtis. Directly or indirectly ?
Mr. GossER. Directly or indirectly, no.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Ervin. I had one request. I would like for somebody to
take these checks and add up how many went to the Hardy Co., and
I would like to know how many went to the Hardy Co., and how many
checks were made to Zvara, just for the record.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?
;Mr. Kauh. Mr. Manuel has a couple of questions.
The Chairman. I would like to get through with this witness and
make some progress. I will come back at 2 :30, but I have an appoint-
ment at 1 o'clock. So if we can hurry I would appreciate getting
through with this witness and coming back at 2 :30. We are not go-
ing to be able to get through with this this week as I had hoped to,
apparently.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Gosser, did you have Dorsey Carr on your staff
as an international representative when you were regional director?
Mr. Gosser. Yes ; I believe I did.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know whether or not he had to pay any kick-
backs to your flower fund ?
Mr. Gosser. Well, the way you put it, now, Mr. Carr
Mr. Manuel. Yes or no.
Mr. GossER. I ain't going to answer "Yes" or "No." Mr. Carr
might have contributed to the flower fund and the record would have
to show that.
Mr. Manuel. Would it be a voluntary contribution ?
Mr. Gosser. So far as I am concerned, I have yet in my life to
have the first guy come to me and tell me that he didn't want to con-
tribute to the flower fund, until he was discharged. Mr. Carr was
discharged.
Mr. Manuel. Well, if Mr. Carr made contributions, you say they
were voluntary contributions.
Mr. Gosser. You would have to ask him that.
Mr. M\NUEL. I am asking you.
Mr. Gosser. I can answer, as far as his indications to me are con-
cerned, they were certainly voluntary, and he never indicated or he
never came to my office and said "I did not want to pay to your
flower fund, because I am sure that there were several fellows who
didn't give."
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever give him receipts for those payments?
Mr. Gosser. Did he give me ?
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever give him receipts for those payments ?
]\Ir. Gosser. I never in my life so far as I Imow ever took a penny
of the flower fund, and I think in my regime it was given to an office
girl.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever send Charles Ballard and another man
named Walter Madrzykowski to Mr. Carr's house after he left your
20072 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
employment, and ask him for his receipts of payments to the flower
fmid?
Mr. GosSEK. I would say "No" to that.
Mr. Manuel. Would you say "No" is the answer?
Mr. GossER. I can't ever remember sending anyone to Dorsey's
house after he quit and again I want to say, he was discharged for not
performing his operations.
Mr. Manuel. Do you say the answer to that is "No" ?
Mr. GossER. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. Manuel. You don't know whether Mr. Ballard threatened to
kick his brains out if he ever mentioned taking up those receipts?
Mr. GossER. Having not lived Mr. Ballard's life, I don't know what
Mr. Ballard might have done, but I want to say this much about Mr.
Ballard: Mr. Ballard is a very reserved person, and I would think
that he would be a million miles away from ever making such a state-
ment as that.
The Chairman. Do you know of him making such a statement?
Mr. GossER. No.
The Chairman. If he did such a thing, you do not know anything
about it ?
Mr. GossER. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never heard about it ?
Mr. GossER. No.
Senator Kennedy. What year was this ?
Mr. Manuel. In 1944, Senator.
When your hardware store sold merchandise to the union, would
you explain the terms on which you sold, and was it retail, below
retail, or above retail ?
Mr. GossER. As far as I know, and I am pretty sure this is quite ac-
curate, every quarter or so, we figured up what our overhead was,
and we sold to the union what our wholesale price was, plus our over-
head.
Mr. Manuel. Just at cost ?
Mr. GossER. Just about service, yes.
Mr. Manuel. Never over ?
Mr. GossER. As far as I know, no. Not being in there, and not
writing every check on that, I don't want to be pointed down on that.
Mr. Manuel. But your policy was to sell at cost ?
Mr. Gosser. Our policy was for them to sell for exactly what we
paid, plus what the accountant figured our overhead was.
The Chairman. As I understand, you were not trying to make any
profit out of the union when j^ou sold to the union out of your store ?
Mr. Gosser. I have explained that the union — you are right.
The Chairman. When you owned it, before the union bought the
store, as you sold to them, what you are testifying to here is that all
you tried to do was to get the cost of your goods back, plus enough
profit to cover overhead.
Mr. Gosser. That is right.
The Chairman. Is that what you are saying ?
Mr. GossER. That is right.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Manuel. I think you admitted that perhaps some small amount
of the proceeds from the slot machines went into your flower fund,
I believe you said 1 percent.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20073
Mr. GossER. I said rather than to get into an argument, I would con-
cede that it was possible.
Mr. ISIanuel. One percent ?
Mr. GossER. I think that I said that, yes.
Mr. Manuel. Would you know what that 1 percent would amount
to ? Approximately, witliin hundreds of dollars.
Mr. GossER. No, but I would say that my best way to analyze it
would be to say if you ever went to a good drinking bout, the Auto
Workers when they are having a conference, I would say that 1 percent
would be lucky if it would pay for it.
Mr. Manuel. When you and Mr. Schultz were partners in the Co-
lonial Hardware Store, I believe you said you were equal partners.
Mr. Gosser. When Mr. Schultz and I were in the hardware store,
yes, we were equal partners. I think Rath was the accountant. It
was not at the time of the partnership.
Mr. Manuel. You each put up $4,000, did you not ?
Mr. Gosser. Well, he had written some figure, and I thought that
he read $4,500.
Mr. Manuel. You each put up $5,000 ?
Mr. Gosser. That is what your record says.
Mr. Manuel. And you were equal partners ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Sharing profits equally ?
Mr. Gosser. Sharing everything equally.
Mr. Manuel. And losses equally ?
Mr. Gosser. Sharing everything equally as far as the business.
Mr. Manuel. And shared the profits equally from the business ?
Mr. Gosser. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. And now Mr. Schultz got his
Mr. Gosser. I don't know, I don't want to speak for Mr. Schultz.
Mr. Manuel. He should have gotten half .
Mr. Gosser. You have Mr. Schultz outside, and why don't you
bring in Mr. Schultz and let him speak for himself ?
Mr. Manuel. We are, and I just want
Mr. Gosser. I am not Mr. Schultz' keeper, and nobody else. Bring
Mr. Shultz in here, and you have him outside. What did you bring
him down here if you are not going to ask him ?
Mr. Manuel. We will.
Senator Ivennedy. I have one question.
Mr. Gosser, in the slot machine money, what was the use of the
flower fund at that time? Was it for contributions for maintaining
political action within the union, or did you say yesterday it also in-
cluded some contributions to the farms.
Mr. Gosser. On three things.
Before you came in, Senator, I was talking to Senator Curtis and
I was explaining to him the reason for the farms.
Senator Kennedy. Wliat I am asking you is whether the flower
fund, the only use
Mr. Gosser. The flower fund not only contributes to the summer
camp, and they send kids to the summer camp, but buys presents for the
kids and all of the orphanages, because now we don't have as much
political fight as we used to have in our union, and therefore we have
an excessive amount of money, and we even now take them from all
20074 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
over, and we take all of the Lutheran kids from Marion, Ohio, and
bring them down to our camp.
The Chairman. Is there anything further ?
Senator Mundt. I have one question.
Mr. Manuel asked you a question about you and Mr. Schultz. Is
that the name ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. And he asked you whether or not you shared
equally in the profits.
Mr. GossER. And I said you have to ask Mr. Schultz.
Senator Mundt. You can answer this from the standpoint of your
knowledge, as one of the partners, that to the best of your information,
did you and Mr. Schultz share the profits equally.
Mr. GossER. All I want to say is that I think Mr. Schultz is a
pretty honorable man.
Senator Mundt. I do not even know him and I am trying to find out.
Mr. GossER. You are going to talk to him, he is outside.
Senator Mundt. You are half of the partnership. Why should
you duck the question ?
Mr. GossER. Mr. Schultz did the bookkeeping, and as far as I am
concerned I am going to let Mr. Schultz speak for himself. I would
say this, in a friendly sort of way, if I was keeping the books of a
partnership it would seem to me that I wouldn't give the other guy
more than I gave myself.
^ The Chairman. That is quibbling. As far as you know, did he get
his half of the profits ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know any reason why he did not get his
half?
Mr. GossER. I wouldn't know of any at all.
The Chairman. And he had charge of the books and the cash and
the operation of the business.
Mr. GossER. He was the one that handled the books and we hired
people to operate the business.
The Chairman. When you would get your dividends or your share
of the profits, did you understand that he was getting his equal share?
Mr. GossER. We were not working and we kept putting our money
back into the business, Senator, except we paid our income tax.
The Chairman. When you sold it, did he get half the sales price?
Mr. GossER. No, I bought him out before that.
The Chairman. You bought him out ?
Mr. GossER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Curtis. Will Mr. Ballard be here this afternoon ?
Mr. GossER. I thought we had arrived after I answer all of the
answers on the flower fund — that you didn't want Mr. Ballard.
Senator Curtis. There is no such thing.
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Ballard has never been requested.
The Chairman. I will get a subpena for him if you want to hear
him. We never settled it yesterday.
Mr. GossER. He asked me the questions about where was the 1957
books and I said there wasn't any ; and where was the 1956 books.
The Chairman. This witness testified there are no records.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20075
Mr. GossER. If you got Mr. Ballard here, you would get the same
answer.
The Chairman. Do you want Ballard ?
Senator Curtis. Yes. I thought that was arranged yesterday.
Senator Church. There was some confusion yesterday.
The Chairman. Do you want Mr. Gosser any more ?
Mr. Gosser, you are excused and the committee will reconvene at
2:30.
Mr. Gosser, you are not under subpena now, are you ?
Mr. Kauh. Yes, he is.
The Chairman. Yes, he is under subpena. You will remain under
the same subpena, subject to being recalled at such time as the com-
mittee may desire to hear further testimony from you and you accept
such recognizance.
Mr. Gosser. Will you do me a favor ?
The Chairjman. I might.
Mr. Gosser. Have them change my name so I don't get any more
aliases ; have them correct my name.
The Chairman. I get mine misspelled sometimes, too.
We will reconvene at 2 :30.
(Wliereupon, at 1 p. m. the committee was recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 :30 p.m. the same day.)
afternoon session
(The select committee reconvened in executive session at 2:30 p.m.,
Senator John L. McClellan, chairman of the select committee, presid-
ing.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
afternoon session were Senators McClellan and Curtis.)
The Chairman. The witness will be sworn.
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. I do.
TESTIMONY OE MELVIN SCHULTZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LOWELL GOERLICH AND EUANCIS RENO
The Chairman. All right. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Schultz, what is your full name ?
Mr. GoERLiCH. May we enter our appearance ?
Senator Curtis. First I want his name.
Mr. Schultz. Melvin Schultz.
Senator Curtis. Where do you reside ?
Mr. Schultz. Toledo, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. What is your business or occupation ?
Mr. Schultz. I am an employee for the Northwest Ohio Area
Industries.
Senator Curtis. Would you identify yourselves for the record ?
Mr. GoERLiCH. I am Lowell Goerlich, and the other counsel is Fran-
cis Reno.
20076 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Mr. Schultz, what work were you engaged in in
1945, in October?
Mr. Schultz. I was president of local union No. 12,
Senator Curtis. When did you become president of local union No.
12, as best you can remember ?
Mr. Schultz. I think it was approximately 1942, January or
February.
Senator Curtis. How long did you continue as president ?
Mr. Schultz. Until 1949 ; the first week in March, I believe.
Senator Curtis. Do you know Mr. Richard Gosser ?
Mr. Schultz. Yes ; I do.
Senator Curtis. Did you go into business with him in the fall of
1945 ?
Mr. Schultz. Yes; I did.
Senator Curtis. And what position in the union did he hold at that
time ? That would be in 1945.
Mr. Schltltz. I believe he was the regional director at that time.
Senator Curtis. Later on, during the course of your business asso-
ciation, he became a vice president of the international; did he not?
Mr. Schultz. Yes; he did.
Mr. GoERLicH. I don't think he answered that question right. You
said "during the course of his business association."
Senator Curtis. He testified that he was in business until 1949.
Did you ?
]\Ir. Schultz. I was president of the local until 1949.
Senator Curtis. Excuse me. You are right.
Wlien did you cease your association with Mr. Gosser in business?
Mr. Schultz. That was in January of 1949.
Senator Curtis. January of 1949 ? This was the hardware business ?
Mr. Schultz. Yes.
Senator Curtis. And the first name given to the business was the
G. & S. Hardware ; is that correct ?
Mr. Schultz. It seems to me that was a suggestion, but I don't think
it ever opened as G. & S. It might have.
Senator Curtis. What name did you later apply to the hardware
business ?
Mr. Schultz. It was called the Colonial Hardware.
Senator Curtis. Were you and Mr. Gosser equal partners ?
Mr. Schultz. We invested the same amount.
Senator Curtis. Was there anyone else who was a partner or owner
during the time the two of you were in there ?
Mr. Schultz. Not wliile I was in it.
Senator Curtis. How much money did you invest in the hardware
store ?
Mr. Schultz. I believe that was $4,000 that was invested.
Senator Curtis. Did Mr, Gosser put in a like amount ?
Mr. Schultz. Yes ; he put in the same.
Senator Curtis. Was it your understanding that you were to be
equal partners?
Mr. Schultz. Well, we were equal partners on the amount of invest-
ment and everything ; yes.
Senator Curtis. Equal partners if you had a loss or if you had a
gain ; was that your miderstanding when you went in ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20077
Mr. ScHULTz. I understood that I would have to take half of the
loss, if there was a loss.
Senator Curtis. And also of the gain or profit ?
JNIr. ScHULTZ. That would have been mine ; yes.
Senator Curtis. You left the business in January of 1949. What
was your reason for leaving ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. My reason for leaving was simply that my health
broke down, and I just gave up my activities in order to try to regain
my health.
Senator Curtis. Did you sell your interest in the hardware store ?
Mr. ScHULTz. I sold it or withdrew it, however you want it.
Senator Curtis. To whom did you sell it, or turn it over to?
Mr. ScHULTz. To Mr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. Did you receive anything for that ?
Mr. ScHULTz. The money that I had put into it is all that I asked
for, and I received it.
Senator Curtis. You received your $4,000 back ?
Mr. ScHULTz. That is right.
Senator Curtis. During this time, did you draw any salary from
the hardware store ?
Mr. ScHULTz. No.
Senator Curtis. Did you share in any of the profits ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. No ; I didn't.
Senator Curtis. There were profits ; were there not ?
Mr. ScHULTz. Well, everything that had been taken in had been
put back into inventoiy, outside of money that was used to pay taxes.
Senator Curtis. Is it true that there was a profit in 1947 of $16,000 ?
Mr. ScHULTz. Well, I couldn't say to the figure. I don't recall the
figures to that extent.
Senator Curtis. Do you recall whether or not the profit in 1948
was $18,000?
Mr. ScHULTz. I don't think so, because when I left there was no-
such figures there.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Schultz, I am drawing these figures from a
deposition you took back at the time. We will give you the benefit
of the inquiries and your answers.
Mr. GoERLicH. You are referring to his deposition ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Schultz, do you recall having had your deposition taken ?
Mr. Schultz. Yes.
Senator Curtis. In a case started by John A. Bolman against your-
self and other people connected, with the union ?
Mr. Schultz. Yes.
Senator Curtis. I will read from that deposition, which this copy
purports ^*^
Mr. Schultz. Senator, I would be willing to say that that was my
statement, and I accept it. It is a long time for me to remember now,
for me to quote figures.
Senator Curtis. I understand that. I do not wish to attempt to im-
peach you, but I want to get these figures into the record. That is the
reason I am telling you exactly where I am getting them from. This
was taken Friday, January 19, 1951 :
Question. Can you recall the net profit for the year 1947?
Answer. Net Profit?
20078 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Question. Yes; or I will state the question clearer. How much profit did
Colonial Hardware & Sporting Goods Co. make in 1947 on the $100,000 of sales
within your recollection?
Answer. Well, I am not sure of those figures now, but I think that it must have
been around $16,000 or $18,000, something around that figure.
Question. Can you recall the approximate sales volume for the year 1948?
Answer. I think it was about the same as 1947.
Question. Can you recall the profits for the year 1948?
Answer. They were about the same.
Question. And you personally received no profit from the business?
Answer. No.
If I have read this correctly, is it your statement now that what
you said then was the truth ?
Mr. ScHTjLTz. Yes ; I accept it.
(At this point Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Did you receive any salary ?
Mr. ScHULTz. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Schultz, did you spend time at the hard-
ware store?
Mr. Schultz. I spent some time there ; yes.
Senator Curtis. About how much time would you spend?
Mr. Schultz. I never kept track of it.
Senator Curtis. I realize that, it is a long time ago, but would you
be spending some time in the store every week ?
Mr. Schultz. Practically every week, I would say, unless I had
been out of town. There might have been some weeks that I was.
Senator Curtis. If you were in town, your best recollection is that
you would be spending some time in there probably every week ?
Mr. Schultz. Probably every week.
Senator Curtis. In addition to being a partner, you were the man-
ager of the store ; is that correct ?
Mr. Schultz. Well, I didn't manage it as you would say alone.
We had help and I left it up to the help there, to a large extent, be-
cause I couldn't be there all the time.
In fact, not so very much of the time.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever ask for your share of the profits?
Mr. Schultz. When I left, I simply asked that I be returned the
investment which I had made, that I had decided my health needed
to be recovered. I was afraid for my own health. So that is all I
asked for. I did not ask for anything else.
Senator Curtis. You did not ask for anything else.
Were you aware that Mr. Gosser was receiving profits from the
store ?
Mr. Schultz. I don't understand your question.
Senator Curtis. Did you know that Mr. Gosser was receivmg profits
from the store ?
Mr. Schultz. Do you mean during this period of operation ?
Senator Curtis. Yes. During, we will say, 1947 and 1948.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. GoERLicH. Pie doesn't quite understand your question. Sen-
ator.
Mr. Schultz. There were no checks written — I mean, if you mean
it was disbursed, to my knowledge or my recollection there was no
money disbursed to him either, not to me or to him.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20079
Senator Curtis. It was a partnership, was it ?
Mr. SoHULTz. The profits that were accumulating were being put
back into stock, into merchandise.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Gosser's income tax returns show that he re-
ceived profit in 1946 of $5,511; 1947, $18,648.65; and 1948, $12,253.49.
Mr. ScHULTz. That was an increase in inventory.
Senator Curtis. While you were a partnership, you filed an in-
formational return ; is that correct ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Curtis. Or a partnership tax return.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. ScHULTZ. I believe it was a partnership form, and each one filed
a copy. I mean, it was our own returns.
Senator Curtis. The only thing you got out of it was your $4,000
back?
Mr. ScHULTz. That is right.
Senator Curtis. And if Mr. Gosser would make the contention that
you did get profits out of it, you would say that you did not?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Wliat is the question ?
Mr. ScHULTz. The question of getting profits. I never got any cash
profits.
Senator Curtis. Did you get any other kind of profits ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. While the merchandise was purchased, it showed
on my return as a profit, sure. But I never got a cash profit out of
it. It was merely an increase in inventory.
The Chairman. Did you show it on your income return as receiv-
ing so much profit ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. There was a partnership form which was made up,
and that showed the increase in inventory as a profit on that partner-
ship, and taxes were paid on it. But it was not a cash — I did not take
cash out of the business. That remained as inventory right in the
store.
Senator Curtis. I think, Mr. Chairman, we have this situation:
They were operating as a partnership.
The Chairman. I believe I understand.
Senator Curtis. And a partner would be liable for taxes whether
he withdrew from the business or not. I don't know if Mr. Schultz is
familiar with that, but I think we can recognize that that is the case.
But at any rate, you put in $4,000 and about 3 years later you got
$4,000 out, and that is all the money you put in and that is all the
money you got out ?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
(At this point Senator JSIundt entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Schultz. I put $4,000 into the place when we started, and when
I withdrew in 1949 I got $4,000 back. That is all I got.
Senator Curtis. And no salary in between ?
Mr. Schultz. No salary.
Senator Curtis. One more question : Do you know where the books
and records of the Colonial Hardware Store are now ?
Mr. Schultz. No, I do not.
Senator Curtis. It was still a going concern when you got out ?
Mr. Schultz. Yes.
20080 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Wlio ordered the supplies, ordered or okeyed the
purchases from Colonial Hardware Store that were made for the
summer camp, the retirement farms, local 12, or to the building cor-
poration ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. Well, there were various people in those various cate-
gories, and as they needed stock, supplies, they would order.
Senator Curtis. Did Mr. Gosser order or okey orders ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. I don't recall. Do you mean did he sign orders or
something of that sort ? I don't recall if he signed any orders or any-
thing. But to say that he okeyed orders
Senator Curtis. I mean verbally or otherwise.
Mr. Sciiultz. He may have okeyed some verbally, and he may have
even written some. I don't recall them right at the moment.
Senator Curtis. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Kennedy. Can I ask what is the thrust of these questions?
I came in late. What are we demonstrating? Or attempting to
demonstrate ?
Senator Curtis. It relates to Mr. Gosser's business transactions.
Mr. Schultz was president of the local. Mr. Gosser at the time he
started into the business was regional director, later on becoming vice
president of the international. They were equal partners.
Mr. Schultz was in the business for a little over 3 years. He re-
ceived no salary ; he put in $4,000 when the business was started and
when he left he got his $4,000 back, and that is all.
Qosser— I don't want to be unfair, but I think that an examination
of the record of Mr. Gosser's testimony is that he got half of the
profits. ^ „
Senator Kennedy. Did you complain about the amount ot money
that you received when you got out of the business ? , ^ , . , ^
Mr. Schultz. No. I asked that I get my $4,000 back, and I did. I
left the business because my health had gotten me down.
Senator Kennedy. Were you getting a salary during this period ?
Mr. Schultz. No, sir ; I was not. You mean from the hardware ?
Senator Kennedy. For the work that you might have done m con-
nection with it.
Mr. Schultz. No.
Senator Kennedy. Who did the work m the store ?
Mr. Schultz. Well, there were several clerks that did the work
Senator Kennedy. I gather the implication that is behind this is
that vou both invested the same amount of money in a store, and that
Mr. Gosser got the profits and that you got nothing but your capital
back Is that what happened? _
Mr. Schultz. That is all I asked for ; that is right .
Senator Kennedy. Do you have any explanation of why you didn t
get part of the money ? i i^i t i j
Mr. Schultz. I already answered ; because of my health. I asked
for my money back, and that I was going to try to regain my health,
and I just left. . .i . T»r /-, ^ i
Senator Kennedy. Do you feel m any way that Mr. Gosser took
more than he was entitled to ? , -, ^
Mr. Schultz. He didn't take it, sir. I only asked for my money
back. I only asked for that.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20081
Senator Kennedy. These are events that happened in 1947, 1948,
and 1949 «
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Do you chxim that there was illegality here or
impropriety?
Senator Curtis. Impropriety, and I think it impeaches Mr. Gosser's
testimony.
Mr. Goerlich. That is not the way I heard it.
Senator Curtis. And on that I will not make a statement. I will
just rely upon the record as to what it shows what Mr. Gosser said
about the division of profits.
Senator Kennedy. In other words, what you are talking about is
something that happened in 1947, 1948, and 1949 ?
Senator Curtis. It is based upon Mr. Schultz' sw^orn deposition
taken in 1949.
Senator Kennedy. Have you any new evidence about this ?
Senator Curtis. There isn't any new evidence. It is just a matter
of arithmetic.
Senator Kennedy. I am interested in why this committee is spend-
ing its time on a matter that happened in 1949. I think that would be
interesting. What are we doing back in 1949 ?
Senator Curtis. I think we are showing a continuous chain of
events of Mr. Gosser's business operations with union members, with
the local, with the building corporation, with their other profits; a
partner that is taken in who doesn't get any salary or any profits.
It is valid today because we will show here before this is over that
it was investigated — I don't want to use the term whitewashed — but it
was decided in favor of Mr. Gosser, and these things have gone on and
have been condoned.
I think the people who have objected to it have been punislied.
Senator Kennedy. Maybe you are going to show it. I have not
seen it yet. I think we ought to get an explanation, if Mr. Gosser
has not left town, on your suggestion that he committed perjury with
regards to the profits. I think we ought to clear that up.
Do you want to call him back ?
Senator Curtis. I will not state what my memory is, but I will rely
on the transcript of the record.
The Chairman. He has been excused.
Senator Kennedy. Is he going to be called back ?
Senator Curtis. He was excused, but there was an understanding
that he would remain under subpen a .
The Chairman. But I did not anticipate that he would be called
back at this session.
Senator Curtis. No, that is correct.
The Chairman. The chairman would make one observation.
Senator Mundt, if you want to ask anything, go ahead. I wanted
to ask the witness one or two questions that I think would be pertinent
to any answer he might give. But go ahead. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. I don't care to interrupt, if you want to ask first.
I was going to comment on what Senator Kennedy said.
The Chairman. I don't Imow anything about your business trans-
actions with him, but this is the crux of the thing from my viewpoint
at the moment: During the course of operating that business, you
were a union official, were you not ?
20082 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. ScHULTz. That is correct.
The Chairman. And so was your partner ?
Mr. ScHULTz. That is correct.
The Chairman. During that time, you sold from the hardware store
merchandise to the union and to the union entities, such as the sum-
mer camp and so forth. You sold some hardware to the union and
those enterprises of the union, of which you were president; is that
correct ?
M r. ScHULTZ. Some things ; yes.
The Chairman. In the making of those sales, did you sell at the
normal price that you sold to others, or did you increase the price?
Mr. ScHULTz. No, sir; it was sold at the normal prices, and in
instances where sometimes there were quantities, there were discounts.
The Chairman. And sometimes there were discounts where there
were quantities ?
Mr. ScHULTz. Yes.
The Chairman. In other words, what I want to find out, and this
would be of interest if true, would be very improper if true, whether in
the course of this business you simply imposed upon the union by
reason of your official authority in order to gain and profit by the
business individually, you and your partner in the business.
Mr. ScHULTz. No, sir.
The Chairman. You are sure of that ?
Mr. ScHULTz. I am sure that I know of no such instance. I do
know that possibly members would come to us, because they knew us,
instead of going somewhere else.
The Chairman. In other words
Mr. ScHULTz. That is normal.
The Chairman. In other words, since you had a business, and you
belonged to the union, and you were officers of the union, and because
of members knowing you, they would come and trade with you ; is that
right?
Mr. ScHTTLTz, I think that was true to an extent.
The Chairman. What I want to know is : Did you exploit the union
by reason of selling to it? You would be representing the union and
also representing your business. As president of the union, you would
owe the highest obligation to your union, to protect it.
In dealing with yourself as a businessman, as the head of a union
you have to be very careful.
The question is : Did you use your position in the union from which
to make your business profitable ?
Mr. ScHULTz. No, sir, I did not; not to the extent that you ex-
plained.
The Chairman. In other words, if your union did trade some with
you, but it cost the union no more to buy the goods from you than it
would have cost them to have gone and gotten them from your com-
petitors ?
Mr. SciHjLTz. That is right.
The Chairman. Is that what you are saying ?
Mr. SciitJLTz. That is what I am saying.
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. First I want to say for the record that I am a little
surprised at my distinguished friend. Senator Kennedy, questioning
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20083
the validity of this investigation on the basis that it goes back 10
years, because I think in every single union investigation we have had
so far we have gone back far beyond 10 years. I don't see that the
calendar date is important. I don't know whether anything wrong
occurred or whether it didn't occur. But certainly the fact that the
date of the situation being described goes back to 1949 makes it pretty
current compared to a lot of dates we have been discussing tliroughout
the investigation.
I do want the record to show that I, at least, am surprised that now
we raise a dateline in connection with this inquiry, which has never
been raised before.
Senator Kennedy. Can I respond ?
The reason I said that was because I understood this matter had
been subject to some investigation and discussion previous to this. It
is my understanding that that store has been disposed of. Is that
correct ?
Mr. ScHULTz. I left it in January of 1949.
Senator Kennedy. Did Mr. Gosser — I will ask the attorney. Does
Mr. Gosser own the store still ?
Mr. GoERLiCH. No ; he sold it.
Senator Kennedy. In what year ?
Mr. GoERLicH. Either 1951 or 1952.
Senator Kennedy. Let me say to Senator Mundt that if something
can be shown that is new, that is not covered by previous investiga-
tions, then I think it would be of interest.
What I find to be of some interest is that we have spent 2 or 3 days
going into matters which are subject to a good deal of publicity, and
so far nothing new has been demonstrated that was not known, cer-
tainly by me and certainly by Mr. Tierney and Mr. Kamerick.
That is my point. Senator.
Senator Mundt. You are entitled to make your point, but it cer-
tainly indicates to me that the dateline is completely unimportant.
As far as I know, this committee has not made anything remotely
resembling a complete investigation. Whether or not you are refer-
ring to a grand-jury proceedings or something, I don't know.
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Tierney, may I ask you if anything has come
out yet in this matter that you did not know ?
Mr. Tierney. No, sir.
Senator Mundt. Did you have all the records that they now have
in these documents and suitcases ?
Mr. Tierney. We did not have those records.
Senator Kennedy. I asked about what had come out so far.
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
Senator Mundt. You didn't have all of those ?
Mr. Tierney. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Since Mr. Tierney has become a witness
The Chairman. He is not a witness.
Senator Curtis. Senator Kennedy just asked a question.
The Chairman. Certainly. I want you to ask anything you wish.
But if you want him as a witness, we will swear him.
Senator Curtis. Did you know that Mr. Schultz received nothing
from this hardware venture except his $4,000 ?
36751— 60— pt. 58 12
20084 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. TiERNEY. Yes, sir, Senator, we did. It is a subject of a memo-
randum in the file.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Schultz, I believe that a previous witness said
that you were the bookkeeper of this hardware store, that you kept the
books or they were kept under your custody. Am I right about
that, or wrong ?
Mr. Schultz. During the time that I was there ; yes.
Senator Mundt. For about 4 years, that would be ?
Mr. Schultz. About 3 years.
Senator Mundt. What disposition did you make of the books at the
time you sold out ? I think you sold out to Mr. Gosser, if I remember
right.
Mr. Schultz. I left them on the premises, and Mr. Gosser took
charge of them.
Senator Mundt. You turned the books over to Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Schultz. I didn't hand them to him personally, but they were
there.
Senator Mundt. You didn't take them with you. They became a
part of the property of the new owner ?
Mr. Schultz. 1 did not take them with me ; that is correct.
Senator Mundt. I understand now that your testimony is that you
received no salary whatsoever 'i
Mr. Schultz. No; I didn't.
Senator Mundt. You kept the books just as a labor of love or as a
service rendered by one partner to the overall setup, but you got no
pay for keeping the books 'i
Mr. Schultz. I go not pay for it, Senator.
Senator Mundt. And you got no splitup in profits ?
Mr. Schultz. I only asked for my money back and that is what I
got.
Senator Mundt. I am talking about at the end of every calendar
year or at the end of every fiscal year, when partners divide the
melons, if they have a melon, did you ever get any melon seeds, did
you ever get any profits, did you ever get any distribution of assets?
Mr. Schultz. Because of what the gentleman here brought out
about the tax returns, I don't knew whether your question means that
I got profit because of that tax return, or whether I drew cash out of
it or not. I have already explained how that occurred. We filed the
tax return which showed what was taken in that year, paid our tax
on it, but the money that actually was taken in was put back into
inventory. I never got anything for myself.
Senator Mundt. I didn't know you even had a tax return. But at
least your testimony is that you received no profits and no salary out
of the business. What you put in was $4,000, what you took out was
$4,000, and that is the only cash that went from the business to you.
Is that right?
Mr. Schultz. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Did you get any interest on your $4,000 ?
Mr. Schultz. No ; I didn't ask for it.
Senator Mundt. Just your $4,000 and nothing else ?
Mr. Schultz. That is what I asked for.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20085
Senator Mundt. Then I must agree that tliere is some conflict in
testimony between you and your partner, who said that the profits
were divided evenly and equally; you didn't get profits, according
to your testimony.
Mr. SciiuLTZ. Each year they were divided for tax purposes, but
I have already explained about that. We paid the tax on it, but then
the actual money was put in the business.
Senator Mundt. According to your testimony, your partner got all
the profit. You divided for tax purposes. You did not take any
money out of the business, you put it all back into the business, and
then you sold the whole business for the original $4,000. Your testi-
mony is that if there was a profit, Mv. Gosser got it all.
Mr. ScHULTZ. When I left there, I left all of the inventory.
Senator Mundt. You didn't walk off with half of the merchandise.
You took $4,000 and kissed the boys goodby ; is that it ?
Obviously, in view of that testimony, what Mr. Gosser said this
morning is not accurate. He said you divided the profits. You said
that the profits stayed in the business and the business went to Mr.
Gosser. You got $4,000 from the business and put $4,000 in the
business.
Is that a correct statement ?
Mr. ScHULTz. I put $4,000 into the business and I got $4,000 back
when I left.
Mr. GoERLiCH. Mr. Chairman, on that point I beg to differ with
Senator Mundt.
My interpretation is a bit different than yours; but if you want to
follow your interpretation, I think Mr. Gosser should be permitted
to come back and say what the situation was.
I am sure he didn't mean
The Chairman. Counsel, the Chair is indulging, but I don't believe
you have a right to argue the point.
Senator Mundt. I don't mind him putting his interpretation in. I
was giving mine, and he was giving his. The record will speak for
itself.
The Chairman. Well, I am just trying to keep the record straight.
I have one question. Did you and your partner, Mr. Gosser, have
any falling out or disagreement, when you got out of the business, over
the transaction in any way at all or over the business ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. As I said, my health went bad.
The Chairman. You told me that.
_ Mr. ScHULTZ. I took it on myself to just withdraw from all activi-
ties. I withdrew from union activities and everything.
The Chairman. You withdrew from everything and just went to
him and said, "Give me my money back. I want to withdraw."
Mr. ScHULTz. That is what I asked for.
The Chairman. What I was trying to get at is this : There were no
disagreements, no hard feelings or friction or anything?
Mr. ScHULTz. I had no argument. He didn't argue about it. He
gave me the money and that was it.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know, since we are
talking about money now, about this point :
As the bookkeeper, about how many hours a day, a week, or month,
did you devote to keeping the books of this company ?
20086 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. ScHULTZ. Well, again, Senator, I didn't keep track of the time.
Senator Mundt. I don't ask for an hourly estimate, but you know
•whether you worked 5 minutes a day or 5 hours a day. You know
something about how long it takes to keep books. I have had some
experience as a bookkeeper. I have some idea how much time it takes.
I want you to tell me from your best recollection.
Mr. ScHULTz. Well, certainly it would take more than 5 minutes,
but I can't estimate in hours. It has been a long time ago. I know
that I worked quite hard at it, let me say that.
Senator Mundt. Give me the best estimate of how many hours or
minutes per day you say you put in on the average. I will not try
to hold you to it.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Senator Mundt. Just tell us what you are telling your attorney.
Mr. ScHULTZ. I just asked him how can I try to recollect an esti-
mate. Sometimes I could work at them in the evenings, and then
there would be times that I couldn't work for quite a while, and then
T would probably work on a Sunday, a Saturday.
Senator Mundt. Do I understanding that you did all of this work
as overtime when you were doing a full-time job for somebody else?
Were you employed by the factory at that time on an 8-hour day ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. I was employed at that time as president of the local
there.
Senator Mundt. Yon were working for the union ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. That is right.
Senator Mundt. How many hours a day did you put in for the
union?
Mr. Schultz. Well, that I couldn't say, either, because there was
no time card, but I do Imow that my days were exceptionally long,
and I believe I have always laid that to the breakdown of my liealth,
that I worked too hard, to the point where the doctor told me that
I had just overdone.
Senator Mundt. This is only 10 years ago. I don't want you to
pin yourself down to a schedule. If you were working for a union
instead of for a boss, you probably were working by the month,
rather than by tlie day, or by the week rather than by the hour.
Did you spend full time working for the union and get full-time
pay and do your bookkeeping work evenings and Sundays and Satur-
day afternoons ? Or would you work for the union part of the day
and then maybe during a couple of hours during the day keep your
books, and tlien go back to the union ^ What was your pattern of
operation ?
Mr. ScHULTz. I worked full-time for the union. But, of course,
when you work on a union job there are times when you have to work
nights. There are meetings that are held possibly for a second shift
or first shift, and you have night shifts. You can't say, "I have a
schedule. I work from this hour to this hour." I didn't have that
type of schedule.
Senator Mundt. I am trying to find out when you did your work at
the store, to keep these books.
Mr. ScHULTZ. I already explained to you. As I could catch the
time I did it.
Senator Mundt. Sometimes on Sundays ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20087
Mr. ScHULTz. It wasn't on a schedule. It was when I could catch
the time.
Senator Mundt. When did you catch the time ? Sometimes on Sun-
days, sometimes during the day, sometimes during the night ? Would
that be a fair summary ?
Mr. ScHULTz. That would be a summary. I would say largely it
was nights and Sundays, largely.
Senator Mundt. For this you got no pay ?
Mr. ScHULTZ. No, 1 never drew anything from the store.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions ?
Mr. GoERLiOH. Mr. Chairman, on that subject of prices, we have an
affidavit here from one Charles E. Yaeger, who at the time audited the
local's books and went into this question of prices. I would like to read
one paragraph of his affidavit with regard to what he found.
The Chairman. You may submit the affidavit for our consideration.
We will look at it.
This witness will remain under subpena, under youi- same subpena,
subject to being recalled if and when the committee desires further
testimony from you. You will be given reasonable notice of the time
and place where the committee desires to hear you.
Do you accept that recognizance ? In other words, we don't want to
\iave to subpena you again.
Mr. ScHULTz. Yes.
Senator Curtis. May I ask one more question ?
The Chairman. Yes.
What paragraph, counsel ?
Mr. GoERLiCH. Paragraph 5, Senator.
I believe it is at the top of the page.
The Chairman. This affidavit appears to be in due form, dated the
10th day of August. If you request it, I will let you file it as an exhibit
for reference.
That will be exhibit No, 19,
(Affidavit referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 19" for reference
and may be found in the files of the select committee,)
Senator Curtis, I thought I had a question, but I do not.
The Chairman, All right. Thank you.
Mr, GoERLiCH. May Mr, Schultz leave Washington and go back to
Toledo?
The Chairman. That is what I was telling him, that he would be
recalled i f we should need him. Thank you very much.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Speidell,
The Chairman, Be sworn, please.
You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate
select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Speidell. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LLOYD SPEIDELL
Senator Curtis. State your name to the reporter, please.
Mr. Speidell. Lloyd Speidell, S-p-e-i-d-e-1-1.
Senator Curtis. Where do you reside ?
Mr. Speidell. 1962 Wellesley Drive.
20088 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. In Toledo ?
Mr. Speidell. Toledo, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. What is your present business or occupation ?
Mr. Speidell. I run a tavern.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Speidell, you are aware that you may have an
attorney present with you, are you not ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir ; I am.
Senator Curtis. Do you waive counsel ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir ; I do.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Speidell, do you know Richard Gosser ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir ; I do.
Senator Curtis. Were you ever an employee of the union ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir ; I was.
Senator Curtis. What position did you hold ?
Mr. Speidell. I worked for the unit of Champion Spark Plug.
Then I went down to the local and worked for them. Then I became
recording secretary until the time I left, of local 12.
Senator Curtis. Who made you recording secretary ?
Mr. Speidell. Well, I was elected to the position.
Senator Curtis. Did anybody make any arrangements or have any-
thing to do in exerting leadership to get you that ?
Mr. Speidell. Well, the method of voting was pretty certain that
there was not much chance to it.
Senator Curtis. Explain that a little bit.
Mr. Speidell. It will take a couple of minutes.
The Chairman. Get us oriented as to dates, please. When did you
become recording secretary ?
Mr. Speidell. 1944.
Senator Curtis. How long did you continue as recording secretary ?
Mr. Speidell. Until I quit the local in 1948.
Senator Curtis. Was that a salaried job ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir ; it was.
Senator Curtis. And that was a full-time job ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. In regard to your election, you say you were elected,
but there wasn't any chance of anybody else l3eing elected? Explain
that.
Mr. Speidell. That is my opinion.
Senator Curtis. Explain why you state that.
Mr. Speidell. The way the elections were controlled, different shops
in the local had checkoff systems, but there was only one shop, that
was Willys-Overland, where even though your dues were taken out of
5^ our check, you had to go down to the local, a member at Willys- Over-
land had to go down to the local at least once every 2 months and have
an attendance card punched.
There were two forms of dues receipts at the local. One was a white
one, about 41/2 inches square which, in times of confusion regarding
your union dues, was official, and no other receipt was official, when
you got in a mixup on your dues. Then in addition to that there was
an attendance card which had the months, the names of the months,
around the card, and if you wanted to go down to the local and have
that punched, you could.
IIVIPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20089
In all of the shops in the local, and there had been as many as 65
at one time, those that had checkoffs, none of the members were re-
quired to go down and have this card punched except Willys-Over-
land. Even though they had a checkoff, they still had to go down to
the local at least once every 2 months.
When the local 12 elections come up, you had to have this attend-
ance card to vote, even though you had your white receipt. You
couldn't vote on that. You had to have your attendance card. Nobody
could get your attendance card for you between the first of the year
and the local 12 elections, which usually occurred in April. You had
to go down and get it yourself.
The people are no more interested in voting, you all know that, in a
local union than they are in any other kind of an election. So they
would not take the trouble to go down and get a card. There were
perhaps 45,000 members in the local.
The Chairman. How many ?
Mr. Speidell. During this war, there were perhaps as many as
45,000.
The Chairman. 45,000?
Mr. Speidell. Yes. And of all these members, the only ones who
had to get attendance cards were the people at Willys-Overland. Then
when election time came up, the people under Mr. Gosser's direction
tooks cars, and went out to Willys-Overland during working hours and
hauled people down.
The cars were numbered on the windshield, with numbers that big
[indicating], and I have seen cars as high as No. 25, and the people
they wanted to bring down to vote were brought down, at company
ex])ense, I believe.
So there was never any element of doubt in an election.
Senator Mundt. What would happen, Mr. Speidell ? You say that
the people in Willys-Overland had to go down and get their attend-
ance cnrds punched. That indicates there was some compulsion about
it. Suppose they had some obstinate guy who said, "I will not go
down" ?
Mr. Speidell. He became suspended.
Senator Mundt. From the union ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Even though he paid his dues ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right. That is to the best of my knowledge.
I believe I am right. There was some compulsion. They had to do
it, but no other shop in the local had to do it.
The Chairman. What was the idea of getting an attendance card
punched ?
Mr. Speidell. So it would insure the fact that each member at
Willys-Overland had an attendance card
The Chairman. What ?
Mr. Speidell. It insured the fact that each member at Willys-
Overland had an attendance card and when election time same they
didn't have to question. We did campaign ourselves. You would
try to get your own sliop to vote. You would do your darndest to
get your members from your own shop down to the local to get cards,
but on their part it was all voluntary. They would say, "Yes, we will
go down and get them."
20090 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
But you fellows know how hard it is to get people out to vote. You
couldn't get them out.
The Chairman. As I understand you — and I am trying to follow
you — in some plants they left it to you voluntarily, if you wanted to
vote. You had to go down and have your attendance card punched.
Mr. Speidell. No. The local 12 elections most generally occurred
in April. You had to have this attendance card to vote. They
punched that with a special punch when you voted. You had to have
your attendance card to vote.
Senator Mundt. No attendance card, no vote ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Like registering in another election,
Mr. Speidell. Yes. Even though you had your official paid-up
dues receipt, you couldn't vote. You had to have an attendance card.
Of the approximately 65 shops in the local, the Willys-Overland was
the only one that had those requirements.
The Chairman. Just a moment. As I understand, 65 shops all be-
longed to the same union, and the way they controlled the election,
according to your viewpoint or your testimony, is that the Willys-
Overland people had to go and have their card punched.
IVIr. Speidell. Tliat is right.
The Chairman. The others did not have to ?
Mr. Speidell. That is true.
The Chairman. How many employees were in Willys-Overland?
Mr. Speidell. I guess during the war they would run 15,000.
The Chairman. About 15,000 ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes.
The Chairman. So they would have them all required to go get
their cards punched ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman, Then they haul them out on election day to vote?
Mr. Speidell. Those that they wanted to haul.
The Chairman. Those that they wanted to vote ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman. Were the others precluded from voting ?
Mr. Speidell. If they did it on their own time they could vote.
The Chairman. But the ones they wanted to vote particularly
didn't lose any time ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir.
The Chairman. Is that what you are saying ?
Mr. Speidell. That is what I am saying.
The Chairman. How many would vote in those elections out of
the 40,000?
Mr. Speidell. That was always a secret. It was never divulged.
But the number of votes usually would run all the way from 500 to
700 or 800.
The Chairman. From 500 to 700 or 800 ?
Mr. Speidell. All the while that I had knowledge of it.
The Chairman. Do you mean as a total vote out of 40,000 ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman. They would vote in the elections ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman. Were you elected in that kind of an election ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20091
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. What year were you elected — 1944 ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, 1944.
The Chairman. How long did you serve ?
Mr. Speidell. Four years, until 1948.
The Chairman. Were you defeated ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir. I decided to quit.
The Chairman. You decided to quit ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You voluntarily quit ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was your salary during that time ?
Mr. Speidell. $110 at the last.
The Chairman. A week?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Speidell, you have testified that you voluntarily
quit the union and your job as recording secretary. You did that to
go into business ? Well, ultimately you went into business ?
Mr. Speidell. That is more like it.
Senator Curtis. At the present time in your business, are a great
many union members, rank and file members and some officers, your
customers ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. And there was no trouble when you left. You
voluntarily left, and you are still friends with those people; is that
correct ?
Mr. Speidell. With what people ?
Senator Curtis. Many of the rank and file of union people ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. They are an important part of your customers, are
they?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. As recording secretary, did you make payments to
the flower fund ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How often would you make them ?
Mr. Speidell. Well, that can be told in a hurry. I had to make $5
a week payments in order to get my check. Then I paid two fines in
addition. One time I was late, and as I recall, you were allowed 5
minutes grace period in the morning and then from 5 minutes until 30
minutes late cost you 75 cents. That graduated on up until noon, and
if you didn't get in at noon it would cost you $12. It went from 75
cents to $12.
One particular time I had to pay 75 cents, and then the other time
I resigned at a local 12 meeting on Friday night and I came in on a
Saturday morning. They usually held their staff meetings on Satur-
day morning. They usually held staff meetings in Mr. Gosser's office
on Saturday morning.
I resigned on Friday night. So I come in the next day, cleaned up
my desk, and waited for my check. I thought, of course, that they
wouldn't want me in the staff meeting, so I didn't go up. Wlien they
came down, I paid $10 to get my check because I di(£i't attend the staff
meeting.
20092 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. StaJff meeting of what ?
Mr. Speidell. Mr. Gossers staff meeting. That was the regional
representatives and the local 12 officers. He held combined staff' meet-
ings of the two.
The Chairman. He would have a staff meeting each morning?
Mr. Speidell. Every Saturday morning, and sometimes oftener.
The Chairman. And required you to be there ?
Mr. Speidell. We had to be at all meetings.
The Chairman. I mean, the regular meeting was on Saturday, the
staff' meeting ?
Mr. Speidell. Usually.
The Chairman. Well, at any rate the usual meeting. The regular
meeting would be Saturday unless there was some change?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman. All of you had to be there ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes.
The Chairman. Failure to be there or coming in late, you could be
fined?
Mr. Speidell. $10.
The Chairman. I thought you said it ranged from 75 cents.
Mr. Speidell. That was only for being late for work each day.
The Chairman. That is the day's work ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right ; that is every day.
The Chairman. But the staff meeting you had to attend or you
were fined $10?
Mr. Speidell. There were more meetings than there were days in a
week, almost, and we were fined $10 for missing any meeting.
The Chairman. Were there such things as regular staff' meetings on
regularly scheduled days and times ?
Mr. Speidell. When Mr. Gosser was in town it would be on Satur-
day morning.
The Chairman. The regular meeting when he was in town was on
Saturday morning ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Sometimes there would be called meetings ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. And when you got notice of it, you were expected
to be tliere ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Failing to be there, you were fined $10 ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Failure to be at your work, your place or post of
duty on time, if you got there late you were also fined for that?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. And these fines went into what fund ? Where did
the money go ?
Mr. Speidell. As far as I know, they were supposed to go into the
flower fund?
The Chairman. The fines from being late to staff meetings, failing
to attend staff meetings, and for being late to work went into a flower
fund, as far as you know ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20093
The Chairman. All right, Senator. I was just trying to under-
stand it a little more.
Senator Curtis. This particular $10 fine tliat you referred to, you
were fined for not going to the staff meeting on the Saturday morning
following your resignation on Friday ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator Curtis. They made you pay the $10 before you got your
check ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right. Can I add one thing ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Speidell. I resigned at the local 12 meeting and the member-
ship accepted my resignation at the meeting.
Senator Curtis And you went down to pick up the check and clean
your desk and they fined you $10 for not being at the meeting ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Where did you make your payments to the flower
fund?
Mr. Speidell. I made my payments to a girl by the name of Agnes
Baike.
Senator Curtis. Wliose office was she in ?
Mr. Speidell. Melvin Schultz. He was president of the local at the
time.
Senator Mundt. Is that the same Mr. Schultz who was just in here ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Would you make those payments by check ?
Mr. Speidell. I suppose you could have, but regardless — I never
paid by check. But regardless of how you paid them, you had to pay
that money before this girl would give you your check for that week.
Senator Mundt. Do I understand you to mean that you had to make
a $5 payment per week into the flower fund before you got your regu-
lar salary check ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir. That was a hardship on some people because
they had fines as high as $40 a week.
Senator Mundt. She wouldn't give you your check for what you
earned until you paid this payment to the flower fund?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator Mundt. Would you call that a voluntary contribution to a
flower fund?
Mr. Speidell. Well, we agreed to it. It was a condition of employ-
ment, almost.
Senator Mundt. A condition of employment ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. The voluntary part was you can either work under
these conditions or not work ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
Senator Mundt. I heard it described as a voluntary fund. I won-
dered if the element of "voluntary" entered into it. There is some
volunteerism, I suppose, at that stage, as you mentioned, but once you
accept the employment you are stuck for the payment.
Mr. SPEroELL. That is right, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Speidell, were international representatives
and local 12 officers required to work at the farms ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
20094 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. Or at the summer camp ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir. When we say the camp, we meant the farms
or the camp, or both.
Senator Curtis. And were you required to do that ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. In what form would that notice of that require-
ment come to you ? How would you know that ?
Mr. Speidell. Letters from Mr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. How long a day would you spend there ?
Mr. Speidell. Well, we had to be up there at 9 o'clock in the morn-
ing. I forget exactly how long it was when we left — 4 or 5 o'clock in
the afternoon.
Senator Curtis. Wliat would happen if you didn't go ?
Mr. Speidell. You were fined. I believe that was more than $10,
but I am not sure. I think that was $12 or $14 if you didn't go up to
the farm.
Senator Curtis. Were you ever fined for not going up there ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. You always went ?
Mr. Speidell. I always went.
Senator Curtis. You were required to do a considerable amount of
work when you were up there ?
Mr. Speidell. You can say required if you want to, but when you
take a person as soft as I was from sitting at a desk all the time and
send them to the farm you just can't get work out of him. I didn't
work. I told Gosser that. I suggested to him that if I am getting
$110 a week that he fire me and hire four farmers in my place, because
I wasn't working.
If that was a condition of employment, I couldn't do that type of
work if I wanted to. We were out in the woods in zero weather, chop-
ping down big trees. We had two big huskies on the end of a crosscut ;
I couldn't, but they did. We would knock trees down. He had in
mind buying a sawmill. He was going to make that camp self-suflGl-
cient in every way.
Whether he ever bought the sawmill I don't know. We would go
out in the woods and chop down these big trees, and then we would
quick-skin the trees, our breath would last that long; it would take
us a couple of hours, and we would make a fire, and make the fire close
to the trunk of the tree, and sit there all day.
Senator Curtis. Some of the people had to work pretty hard ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. May I interrupt ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Did you receive a salary as an officer of the local ?
Mr. Speidell. Of local 12, yes.
Senator Kennedy. When you talk about $110 a week, were you re-
ceiving that from the company or the union?
]Mr. Speidell. The union.
Senator Kennedy. You were not working for a company, but just
for the union?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
Senator Kennedy. Would everyone who worked at the plant have
to contribute to the flower fund or just those employed by the union?
Mr. Speidell. Just those employed by the union.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20095
Senator Kennedy. Were you employed by the union or were you
elected to the union job ?
Mr. Speidell. First I was employed. I went down there in 1942
and was employed. I took care of War Labor Board cases and stuff
like that, for local 12. Then I was elected recording secretary in 1944,
still performing the duties, but a few additional duties.
Senator Ivennedy. Were you elected with the support — I gathered
in your explanation of how you were elected that the powers that be
secured your election. Is that correct ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Was this Mr. Gosser's group ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator I^nnedy. Then you would pay to the flower fund $5 or $10
a week ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Kennedy. Did you object to that?
Mr. Speidell. I didn't at the time. It is like I say, you had no choice.
You didn't have to work for the union.
Senator I^nnedy. As I understand it, and I am not defending the
practice, you associated yourself with the practice, and permitted the
Grosser group to put you in office, and that you then contributed to the
political campaign fund which the Gosser group ran, the flower fund,
or at least that part of it which was contributed to maintaining you
and others in office.
It seems to me that if you are going to partake of the loaves and
fishes that you have to contribute something to maintaining the or-
ganization. Was that your feeling then ?
Mr. Speidell. On the surface that would seem logical, but if you
worked there there was quite a bit of resentment on the part of all
the officers and full-time help.
Senator Kennedy. You were elected, by your own description, in an
improper election, or at least an election which did not treat everyone
fairly as far as permitting them to vote. You were given a job and
put in by the Gosser group. You were given a job paying $110 a week.
They asked you to contribute $5 or $10 a week to the fund which
keeps that organization going. It seems to me if you did not like it,
you should have worked someplace else.
Mr. Speidell. You can ask if you want to, and if you say if I didn't
like it I could work some place else, that is true.
Senator Kennedy. But they put you in office. This, in a sense,
was a plum.
Mr. Speidell. Yes, that is true, but it just does not quite cover the
situation putting it that way.
Senator Kennedy. Well, tell me.
Mr. Speidell. Ask me a question again.
Senator Kennedy. What I am attempting to find out is if you went
to work for the union, you were put into this office by the union, and
your description of the election shows that everyone was not given a
fair chance to vote, what I am trying to find out is whether you were
really being treated unfairly and then contributed from that $110 a
week, which in those days was a pretty good job, whether you were
being treated unfairly by being asked to maintain the flower fund
which helped maintain the Gosser group in office.
20096 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Speidell. There are two ways of looking at that. One is you
have a loyalty to the union. You can become satisfied or dissatisfied
with your bosses or the officers. Because you become dissatisfied with
those people is no reason that you have a desire to quit working for
the union.
Senator Kennedy. But you run with the group; you are put in
office by the group. I do not want to defend the practice at all, but
it is a question of just what it is.
What happened so far as quitting, when you said you resigned?
Why did you resign ?
Mr. Speidell. There were a number of reasons why. I always have
felt that an amalgamated local such as local 12, should not interfere
too much with any unit's politics, and particularly my own shop.
What brought my resignation to a head was my own shop. Champion
Spark Plug. Mr. Gosser called me in the office and asked me to sup-
port certain candidates on a slate out there that I sincerely, and not
for political reasons only, that I sincerely did not believe were
qualified.
Senator Mundt. You are talking about a union election ?
Mr. Speidell. In a shop, a unit election, a union election but just
an individual unit. Champion Spark Plug. He asked me or told me
to see to it that certain people were put on the slate, and to try to
get them elected.
Well, I didn't believe they were fit candidates, and I just wouldn't
change my mind. Well, so to do that, that was one of my first splits.
You just don't do those things with Gosser. You don't do them, but
I did. The committee out tliere went along with me, at Champion
Spark Plug, and he insisted that I bring that committee down to him.
Well, by that time there was a rift, and the committee wouldn't come
down and see him. One of the reasons they wouldn't was because any
committee that went to see Gosser cooled their heels out in the aisle-
way for a couple of hours until he got ready. Finall}^ we got them
down to see Schultz, the president of the local, and they made a stipu-
lation that they would see Gosser if he would set the time, and his door
would be open, and they would go in. He did that, and they went
down and saw him.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Speidell, did you ever receive an ac-
counting
Senator Mundt. I have one question on the election.
As I understand the way this operated, this was a device by which
Mr. Gosser and his group, of which you were a part, at least, at the
time you got elected by fraudulent or improper methods, so-called, of
the punchcard system, the purpose of the flower fund was actually
used to prevent other union members from replacing the Gosser group
in these other union jobs. The puipose of the flower fund was really
to circumvent democracy in the unions rather than promote it.
Mr. Speidell. I don't know what the flower fund was used for. I
never saw one accounting. I don't know what it was used for, ever.
We never had any report.
Senator Mundt. You had some idea ? You knew it was called the
flower fund, did you not?
Mr. Speidell. The elections that I talk about — the method — inci-
dentally, I didn't say it was fraud, I said that it made it easier for cer-
tain people to vote than others, that didn't require any money.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20097
Senator Mundt. I am wondering who got the money from the flower
fund. I always thought, as it was described by Mr. Keuther, as de-
scribed by Mr. Gosser, and the other fellows took the fifth amendment,
I thought the purpose of the flower funds was to perpetuate in office
the people who are in office, so that they contribute to the flower fund
and got all of their appointees and associates to contribute to the
flower fund, and then they would hold a cocktail party or a dinner
or something to ingratiate themselves at convention time so that they
would get reelected.
If you had to contribute to that kind of fund, then it looks to me
like you are compelling people to contribute to a fund to beat down
and circumvent the ordinary processes of democracy in a union. If
it wasn't used for that purpose, then I am curious to know who got
the money.
Mr. Speidell. I don't know, sir.
Senator Mundt. You never asked who got the money?
Mr. Speidell. You don't ask questions like that. We often talked
about some kind of reporting or accounting on the flower fund, in
the chatter we had between ourselves, but not in the open.
Senator Mundt. Did anyone ever have courage enough to try to get
up and bell the cat ?
Mr. Speidell. If you want to quit your job, you had the courage.
Senator Mundt. But you never got an accounting or a reporting ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir. If there was a report, I never saw it.
Senator Mundt. It could have been used for speculation on the
stock market, but as far as you know, no accounting was made to the
people who contributed to the fund ?
Mr. Speidell. I know that to be a fact, that there was no accounting
made to the people who contributed to it.
Senator Curtis. In connection with the fact that there was no ac-
counting, during the period that you were there as recording secre-
tary, did you ever see evidence of spending of sums that may have
come from the flower fund that would anywhere near equal what
appeared to be the amount paid in ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever hear Mr. Gosser make or infer any
threats of injury that might come to someone who did not follow a
particular course ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Mr. SpEmELL. That happened numerous times, and I can't exactly
recall him ever making that threat as far as the flower fund. But
one of his favorite threats was he would have some one beat up, put
in the hospital, and when they got out of the hospital he would have
them beat up again so they went back to the hospital, or have them
thrown out the window, or threaten them with a gun in his desk, which
I never saw. But threats w^ere common.
I Senator Curtis. And did he have goons around him ?
! Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were some of these people capable of beatino- up
somebody? r i- i t, i
Did any of them engage in ferrying workers from Willys-Overland
down to the election ?
20098 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Speidell. I can't recall that it was those exact people. The
people that ferried them from the Overland were workers from the
Overland.
Senator Curtis. Martin ferried some of them, did he not?
Mr. Speidell. I believe he did at times ; yes.
(At this point Senators Kemiedy and McClellan left the hearing
room.)
(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
Senator Cltrtis. You say it was on many occasions that you heard
language implying directly or indirectly threats?
Mr. Speideix,. On many occasions.
Senator Curtis. Those threats came from Gosser himself?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator Curtis. What would provoke those threats?
Mr. Speidell. Almost anything; any kind of insubordination
toward him. It was just an expression. He used it all the time and
sometimes carried it out.
Senator Curtis. During the time that you were recording secretary
was Mr. Randolph Gray financial secretary ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir; all of the time.
Senator Curtis. You have known Mr. Gray during these years?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Would you say that Mr. Gray is a man who is oul
of his mind ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Decidedly to the contrary ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I have here a copy of a documeni
which I will identify by a subsequent witness. There is one transactior
on here that I would like to ask Mr. Speidell about. To save time ]
would rather not call Mr. Gray in here to identify it, as it would inter-
rupt the chain of events.
The document purports to be a tabulation of expenses of the summei
camp. I would like to hand it to the witness. I will just refer to the
one item. I will not offer this in evidence.
I hand you a photostatic copy of what appears to be a tabulation oJ
expenses paid for the summer camp, Mr. Speidell.
On the first page, near the bottom of the page, there is an item foi
$36,360.38. Do you recall an occasion when Mr. Gray was going t(
take this statement up to Mr. Gosser's office?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir ; I do.
Senator Curtis. Do you recall what :Mr. Gray said to you ?
Mr. Speidell. He said "Watch Dick go up in the air when I sho\N
him this letter."
Senator Curtis. Or the statement ?
Mr. Speidell. The statement. He used stronger words. When w(
got up there, that was true.
Senator Curtis. The words as appear on the paper now recite
"hardware items, too numerous to list in account classificatioii
$36,360,38." That was what he was referring to, is it, when he saic
^'watch Dick"— what was his language? . -, i
Mr. Speidell. Well, it was strong. He meant watch him raise hel
when he sees this.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20099
(At this point Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Were you present when it was presented to Mr.
Grosser ?
Mr, Speidell. Yes, sir ; I was.
Senator Curtis. What happened ?
Mr. Speidell. He did raise hell and said "What will my political
enemies think when they see this ?"
The Chairman. What is the document ?
Senator Curtis. We have not offered it in evidence because it refers
to Mr. Gray. We are not offering it in evidence.
The Chairman. You are not offering it ?
Senator Curtis. Not at this point because Mr. Gray will have to
identify it.
The Chairman. I thought he identified it.
Senator Curtis. He did not prepare it.
Senator Mundt. It was prepared by Mr. Gray.
Senator Curits. Is there a word stricken out there ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you know what word was stricken out ?
Mr. Speidell. "Unlisted," I believe.
Senator Curtis. So it is a word something before "hardware"?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. What is the word ?
Mr. Speidell. "Unlisted," I believe, is the word.
The Chairman. Unlisted ?
Mr. Speidell. Unlisted.
Senator Mundt. The word that was stricken is the word "unlisted" ?
Senator Curtis. I must say, Mr. Chairman, I think I am in error.
I thought I was saving time by not having Mr. Gray identify this.
He is the one that made the tabulation, and he can tell us.
The Chairman. Tliis witness identifies it and iiiaybe Mr. Gray can
further identify it. I think you ought to make it an exhibit.
Senator Curtis. All right.
The Chairman. You recognize the document, do you?
Mr. Speidell. I do, sir.
The Chairman. Let it be made exhibit No. 20.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 20" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. I guess you have identified it, have you, for the
record ?
Senator Curtis. Yes, I stated what it was.
The Cn airma n. All right. It may be exhibit 20.
Senator Curits. To the best of vour knowledge, this was prepared by
Mr. Gray? * i i J
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir. I am not familiar with the rest of
the items, but the conversation regarding that item — I am familiar
with it.
Senator Cititis. And Mr. Grav would know what word was strick^^n
out?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Speidell, you have testified about how elections
were run. You have testified about the payments to the flower fund.
You have testified about these hardware iteinp- of over $-36,000. You
36751 — 60 — pt. 58 13
20100 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
have testified about numerous threats that Gosser would make, and the
fines assessed. You testified as to the lack of accounting of the flower
fund.
Did you ever say anything to Walter Reuther about these matters?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir. I am glad you asked me that. I had the
occasion in 1950, in the Secor Hotel in Toledo, to talk to the entire
executive board, with Mr. Reuther presiding, and told him all of these
things and many, many more. His secretary took notes. She sat on
his left-hand side and took down everything I said and all of the other
speakers.
Senator Cuetis. A reporter or secretary took it down ?
Mr. Speidell. I believe it was a secretary. It was a lady.
Senator Curtis. What was your purpose for telling Mr. Reuther
about these things ?
Mr. Speidell. It was in connection with those charges that some of
the fellows in Toledo preferred against Mr. Gosser. I believe there
were 28 points.
Senator Cctitis. But in talking to Mr. Reuther, was it intended by
you to make an appeal to him that he do something about this situa-
tion ?
Mr. Speidell. We said that in words. That was exactly the reason
for the meeting and for the charges, to clean up the corruption in
Toledo.
Senator Curtis. As best you can recall, when you told Mr. Reuther
about these things, you recited all these things you recited today and
many more ?
Mr. Speidell. And many more, even affecting his own political cam-
paigns. I told him where Gosser was double-crossing him right and
left. I don't know if you remember R. J. Thomas and Addes, but
Gosser was playing both sides, and I told Reuther that. He never
answered or said a word. This lady took down everything, and he
never asked me questions or anything.
Senator Curtis. What did the board ultimately do in that case?
Mr. Speidell. They said that Gosser was not guilty of any wrong-
doings. They couldn't find sufficient evidence. We told them, I told
them myself, we did and I did, we told them things, and I used these
words, that ""They don't have to go any place for proof but into their
own records, that the statements were conclusive. They could go right
in their own records and prove them. They didn't have to go any
place."
But yet they come back and say there was not sufficient evidence
of any wrongdoing.
Senator Curtis. They exonerated Gosser and placed the blame on
Gray, did they not ?
Mr. Speidell. I don't recall that part too well.
Senator Curtis. But he lost his job, did he not ?
Mr. Speidell. He did, yes, sir. But I was out of the local when he
lost it. I am not too familiar with the circumstances surrounding
Gray's dismissal.
Senator Mundt. You said you told Mr. Reuther and the executive
committee they do not have to look very far to find the evidence, they
will find it in their own records ?
Mr. Speidell. Find the proof. And the evidence, too.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20101
Senator Mundt. Had they looked in their own records, in your
opinion what would they have found as evidence of wrongdoing?
Mr. Speidell. Well, in one instance there was a good example, a
man who later became my partner in this tavern, and since then we
have separated, his name was Frank Molik. He had charge of the
summer camp. He was a local 12 employee. The summer camp be-
longs to local 12, directly, it does not belong to any other union, it
belongs to local 12.
But Mr. Gosser put Frank INIolik on the international payroll.
Frank ^Nlolik's wages as a local officer was $99.03 a week, and as an
international officer it was, I believe, $87 and some cents more every 2
weeks than it was as a local officer. The difference Mr. Molik had to
kick back to the flower fund or Mr. Gosser, or whatever he did with
it. Something like that, I told Mr. Eeuther, "All you have to do is
check your records as of this date and see if you have a Mr. Molik
on there, and there sits Mr. Gosser. Ask him what Mr. Molik's duties
are and how they ai'e connected with the international, and why should
the international pay him and why should he kick back the differ-
ence?"
Those are the kind of things that he told him he did not have
to go any place for the proof, that this proof was right there.
Senator Curtis. You told that to Eeuther ?
Mr. Speidell. I told that directly to Mr. Reuther.
Senator Citrtis. Did he say anything ?
Mr. Speidell. He didn't say anything. He didn't say hardly any-
thing in that meeting. In fact, Mr. Gosser and Mr. Ballard got up in
the middle of my talk and walked out of the room.
Senator Curtis. Gosser was there ?
Mr. Speidell. The entire executive board.
Senator Curtis. Did they take any action to correct that situation
concerning Mr. Molik ?
Mr. Speidell. There was a trial procedure, a meeting as a result of
these charges preferred, 28, I believe, and, as I say, the board con-
sidered all the evidence that we gave them and all the testimony and
came back and said there was not sufficient grounds for doing anything
to Mr. Gosser, that he was okay.
Senator Curtis. Do you remember any other specific kind of evi-
dence that they could have found in the files other than that involvine;
Mr. Molik?
Mr. Speidell. Well, like incidents of other peoi)le. I can name
them. You see, these international representatives, which Mr. Gosser
was then, he wasn't vice president, he was an international representa-
tive or a board member, they are allowed so many representatives to
work for them. It was easy to have vacancies. When they did occur
naturally, and sometimes they did not occur naturally, he would take
someone off of the local 12 payroll and turn them in on the interna-
tional payroll, although they did not function. One of them hoed
weeds in his gardeiL They didn't function as international men, but
they were paid as international. The difference between the pay of an
international man and a local man was kicked back to Gosser.
The CiiAiRMAX. How would it be kicked back ? They would be re-
quired to give him the difference ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
20102 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Using this as an illustration, and I thought you did
a while ago, here is a fellow getting $100 a week, say, from the local —
you were getting $110 a week, I believe.
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman. Let's say he was getting $110 a week from the local.
For the local, that would be $220 for two weeks.
Mr. Speidell. $87 was the difference every 2 weeks.
The Chairman. I am using this as an illustration.
Suppose he would take you. You were getting $110 a week. That
would be $220 for 2 weeks.
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. So he takes you off of the payroll of local 12, puts
you on the international payroll, and instead of paying you $220 each
2 weeks, he would pay you approximately $300 each 2 weeks, that
would be the $80 difference. You would continue to work for the
local and you would kick back the difference to him between the $220
and the $300.
Mr. Speidell. That is exactly right.
The Chairman. Is that what you are testifying ?
Mr. Speidell. Exactly.
The Chairman. Although the man continued his regular work.
He was taken oft' the payroll of the local and put on the payroll of the
international, which, for the 2 weeks' period of time, paid about $80
more than he was getting for working for the local ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman. But he continued doing the local work and not the
international work ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman. And took the $80 or whatever the difference was
and paid it over to Gosser ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
The Chairman. While you are at it, you better name two or three
persons or more, whatever you can, who actually had that happen to
them. Give examples.
Mr. Speidell. Harold Dean. He still works for the local. Ar-
thur Peth. There may have been more. I know that it happened to
those two. That is three, with Frank Molik.
The Chairman. What was the other name ?
Mr. Speidell. Frank Molik.
The Chairman. Was it happening to the three all at the same time'
Mr. Speidell. I can't answer that. It happened during the time I
worked there. It may have happened at the same time.
The Chairman. During the 4 years. You were there for about
4 years?
Mr Speidell. Six years.
The Chairman. Two years you were an employee and 4 years you
were an elected official ?
]\Ir. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. During that 6-year period of time, you know oi
these three different men who were placed on the international pay-
roll, wlio continued to do union local work and made the kickback ol
the difference to Mr. Gosser ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20103
Mr. SrEiDELL. If you will pardon me for saying it, I told Mr.
Reuther that and mentioned names; I mentioned these same names,
and Frank Molik was in the room.
The Chairman, A^'lien did you have this conversation or this con-
ference with Mr. Reuther at which you gave him all of this infor-
mation?
Mr. Speidell. I don't remember the month, but I am positive it
was in the year 1950, It can be determined very easily.
The Chairman. 1950?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
Senator Mundt. I would take it that there should be available from
the records of the UAW unless they have been destroyed, some min-
utes of this meeting at which you appeared; is that right?
Mr. Speidell. There should be, but every one that I have heard talk
about it says there are no minutes.
Senator Mundt, There should be. You saw them taking it down.
Mr, Speidell, I saw them take them down. The girl was sitting
there taking shorthand down right along, I do not believe the entire
international board sits in executive session without someone sitting
there taking down minutes.
Senator Curtis, I might say that is one of the documents that we
have been asking and asking for.
Senator Mundt. They have failed to produce ?
Senator Curtis. That is right.
Senator Mundt, Have we subpenaed ?
Senator Curtis, Under the arrangement.
The Chairman, Any time you think they are not giving you a docu-
ment because of the arrangement, I will issue a subpena for you to
get it.
Senator Mundt, If you ask for it this way and they don't produce
it, does that have the same situation in law as if you had actually
subpenaed them ? I will ask that since I am not a lawyer.
The Chairman. If they destroyed it after it was asked for with
this arrangement and this understanding, I think they would probably
be in contempt of the committee ; yes. But if I were going to try to
make an actually airtight case, I would issue the subpena.
Mr. Manuel. May I say, Mr. Chairman, that I asked Mr. Rauli to
find this transcript, if there was any, and produce it. He checked
with Mr. Mazey and advised me over the telephone there is no record
of any such transcript.
The Chairman. You can do the same thing by calling them in here
and putting them under oath. I assume they would say there is no
such record. It is just like the flower fund. They say the record has
been destroyed.
Senator Mundt. Was Mr. Mazey at the meeting ?
Mr, Speidell. Yes, sir ; the entire board.
Senator Mundt. That is one series of records, of course, which they
could have found in their own books, which would either prove or
disprove your charges. You told them what it was, where it was.
You named it.
In your presentation, were you able to point to any other evidence
of wrongdoing or were these three men and this type of thing the
only improper practice about which you were complaining at this
meeting in 1950 ?
20104 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Speidell. There may have been, but I can't recall. There may
have been. I cited some other irregularities.
Senator Mundt. I am not asking for more names. Were there
other types of improprieties, or was this the gist of the whole com-
plaint ?
Mr. Speidell. There may have been. The one that stood out in
my mind was not an impropriety. It concerned Eeuther's political
affairs. I thought it was pretty bad. When I told Eeuther, he did
not bat an eye. I could not figure it out.
I will tell you if you want me to tell you what it is.
Senator Mundt. Go ahead.
Mr. Speidell. At that time, R. J. Thomas was president and John
Addes, secretary. Although I don't believe and never heard anyone
say they were Communists, they surely favored the Communists and
at the conventions or conferences Communists were chairmen of all
committees named by them, and it was quite an issue.
Wlien Reuther decided to go in, his campaign was to clean them out,
clean out the pinks. Region 2-B, Gosser's region, was solidly beliind
Reuther. We went to Detroit for meetings and one time to the
Masonic Temple for rallies, and Gosser was on the platform with
Reuther.
In Toledo, we were all assembled. There were perhaps 15 of what
was supposed to be keymen from the local and international. We
were taken out to a restaurant and wined and dined. Gosser tried to
persuade us to work for R. J. and Addes politically.
Senator Mundt. Opponents of Reuther?
Mr. Speidell. The opponents of Reuther.
Senator Mundt. By R. J., you mean R. J. Thomas ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right.
Senator Mundt. The alleged Communist ?
Mr. Speidell. No ; he was not a Commmiist. They were favoring
them and using them, almost fellow travellers.
In that meeting, it might somid egotistical, but I would not go along,
and one other fellow would not go along. Gosser wanted it imani-
mously. Well, I just would not do it. That was that meeting.
Then, we had another meeting in Gosser's office and the same thing
happened, that I still would not go along with, but there was a dif-
ferent fellow from the first time that would not go along, too. In
Atlantic City, at the convention, Tom Berg, Walter Murphy, and
myself, we were put in the room with George Addes and he worked
on us for 2 hours to try to get us to campaign and get all of our dele-
gates to work for R. J.
Senator Mundt. That was not Gosser; that was somebody else?
Mr. Speidell. Gosser put us in this room. He had us go. We were
his lieutenants. He put Tom Berg, Walter Murphy and myself in
tliis room with Addes.
Senator Mundt. Let me ask you this, Mr. Speidell : If it becomes
important in these hearings, as it may, to test the credibility of what
you now tell us, against a denial by Mr. Gosser, do you remember the
names of any of the people who were in that room that could be called
upon to either corroborate your testimony or his ?
Mr. Speidell. In the three meetings or any one that I mentioned?
Senator Mundt. Any one of them. Take the one at the restaurant
where Gosser had you for dinner.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20105
Mr. Speidell. I couldn't name every one, but I could name enough.
I believe Kandy Gray was there, Meyers, Schultz, Ballard, Murphy —
they were at both the first meetings.
Senator Mundt. They were at the first two meetings ?
Mr. Speidell. At the first two meetings.
Senator IVIundt. Who was at the meeting which you have described
the last time ?
^Ir. Speidell. The one in Atlantic City, there was myself, and Tom
Berg, I am positive. The third one, I think, was Walter Murphy.
Tom Berg I am positive. Addes worked on us for a couple of hours.
He couldn't persuade me to go along.
Eeuther consequently got elected, but I thought myself that that
would bowl Reuther over because here we are going to Detroit and
hollering and yelling for Reuther, and in the meanwhile Gosser has
us down in Toledo and at Atlantic City trying to get us to vote for
R. J. and Addes.
I couldn't understand the man sitting there as quietly and composed
as he did. I tell him that and Gosser sits there and hears me. I tell
Reuther that right to his face. There were 75 or 80 people in the
room. It was not a closed meeeting. It was the trial.
We had I don't know how many people as witnesses down there
and the entire board sat there. I told Reuther that and it never made
any difi'erence. I don't undei-stand human beings, I guess.
The Chairman. Was this meeting you are talking about where you
told Reuther all of these things and where the stenographer was taking
it down, was this an official meeting or a trial of some kind ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir. It was in the Secor Hotel in
Toledo and I am positive it was in 1950. It was a hearing based on
the 28 charges preferred by, I believe, Harold Billheimer and Eddie
Duck against Gosser.
The Chairman. It was a trial of Gosser on the charges preferred ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. And all of this happened about your telling Presi-
dent Reuther about Gosser and some of the others ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Let me get one thing further. You have testified
to this document a while ago that I made exhibit 20. What is this ?
Is that a part of the charges that were against Gosser at the time of
this trial?
Mr, Speidell. I don't know about that. The one item I do know
about was the conversation I had with Randy Gray on the way up the
steps regarding the $36,000 item. I believe it was listed as unlisted
items, and Randy Gray said, "Watch Gosser go up in the air," but
stronger words, "when he sees this."
The Chairman. There is an item of hardware items too numerous
to list in account classification.
That is all you are talking about ?
Mr. Speidell. That is right, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, may I state •
The Chairman. Off the record.
( Discussion off the record. )
The Chairman. Back on the record.
20106 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. I have one other question. Mr. Speidell, you said
that Mr. Gosser had made threats of personal violence, I guess you
would call them against people for various reasons, when they threat-
ened to cross his path or not follow his discipline. Where were those
made, to your own personal knowledge, where you heard any of those
made, or did you get that from other people ?
Mr. Speidell. They were made in staff meetings and all kinds of
meetings. They were numerous.
Senator Mundt. You heard them yourself ?
Mr. Speidell. I did, sir.
The Chairman. What were they, threats ?
Senator Mundt. Threats of violence to people in the organization,
who indicated they would not go along.
"VVliat I would like to know is whether any of these threats were
ever implemented or were they just forensic suggestions that he would
make ? Did anybody get beaten up who opposed him ?
Mr. Speidell. These beatings that took place, the three, I believe
they will be witnesses here, all three of them, they occurred after I had
left the local and I do not know — I just can't recall if any of the
threats were ever followed or not, but the implication was there.
There were a lot of fights, especially at conventions. I remember
one in Grand Eapids right in the middle of the street. But to_ say
whether or not any direct threat was ever followed up by a direct
incident that I remember, I would not care to state that.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Speidell, you said earlier that Harold Billheimer
sigiied the 28 charges ?
Mr. Speidell. I believe he did.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know him ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Is he out in the hall now ?
Mr, Speidell. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know whether or not he was assaulted by one
of Gosser's lieutenants ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know who beat him up ?
Mr. Speidell. Orville Beamer.
Mr. Manuel. Wliowashe?
Mr. Speidell. An international representative working for Gosser.
Mr. Manuel. Did he also beat up a man named Shorty Schick at
that time ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manual. Did you know Shorty Schick ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Was Shorty Schick an opponent of Gosser? Do
you know why Schick was beaten up ?
Mr. Speidell. No, I don't exactly know why Schick was beaten up.
Mr. IManuel. Did Orville Beanier beat both of them up the same
night nt the same place ?
Mr. Speidell. I believe he did.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know that a policeman came by or was called
during that fracas and that the policeman tried to arrest Beamer and
some of Gosser's toughs took the prisoner away from the policeman ?
Mr. Speidell. I might say this, that I was not there, and anything!
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20107
about this incident to me would be hearsay, that I would know about
would be hearsay.
The Chairman. When was this incident supposed to have occui-red ?
How long ago?
Mr. Speidell. I believe it happened in approximately 1950.
The Chairman. Around 1950?
Mr. Speidell. I am not positive.
Mr. Manuel. Were you connected in any way with the Committee
to Save the Toledo Payrolls ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Were you in their employ ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Were you paid anything by them ?
Mr. Speidell. No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know anybody connected with that move-
ment ?
Mr. Speidell. I don't know.
Mr. Manuel. You do not consider yourself a tool to "save the
Toledo payrolls," do you ?
Mr. Speidell., No, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did Gosser ever refer to you as that ?
Mr. Speidel. I opposed Gosser. I don't remember his saying that.
He did say that I was against the pensions. I criticized him openly
and we had these meetings and charges were preferred, and he said
repeatedly that I was against the pensions that were just being
created then.
The pensions were just coming into union contracts. I was not
even interested in pensions. I was out of the union.
The Chairman. Do you want this witness in the morning?
Senator Curtis. No, I think we are through with him.
The Chairman. You will remain under your present subpena sub-
ject to being recalled at such time as the committee may desire to hear
you further. You will be given reasonable notice.
Will you accept that recognizance ?
Mr. Speidell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
That is all for today.
(Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the hearing in the above-entitled mat-
ter was recessed, subject to call of the Chair.)
(Members of the select committee present at the taking of the re-
cess : Senators McClellan, Curtis, Ervin, and Mimdt.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR 3IANAGEMENT FIELD
THURSDAY, AUGUST 20, 1959
U.S. Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN the Labor or Management Field,
Washington^ B.C.
Tlie select committee met at 5 : 30 p.m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 44, agreed to February 2, 1959, in room 3302, Senate Office
Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-
mittee) presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator
Karl E, Mundt, Republican, South Dakota; Senator John F. Ken-
nedy, Democrat, Massachusetts; Senat<)r Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Demo-
crat, North Carolina ; Senator Frank Church, Democrat, Idaho; Sena-
tor Bariy Goldwater, Republican, Arizona; Senator Carl T. Curtis,
Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
maii, assistant chief counsel ; P. Kenneth O'Donnell, assistant counsel ;
Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel ; Robert E. Manuel, assistant coun-
sel; Walter J. Sheridan, investigator; Carmine S. Bellino, consulting
accountant ; Susan S, Becker, acting chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
(The members of the committee present at convening of the session
■were: Senators McClellan, Goldwater, Curtis, Mundt, and Kennedy.)
The Chairman. The Chair will make a brief opening statement.
This particular series of hearings was originally scheduled for ex-
ecutive session. Senator Curtis had advised the committee that he
had certain testimony that lie would like to present to the committee,
so that the committee might weigh it and determine whether it war-
ranted the committee holding public hearings with respect to certain
alleged improper practices on the part of the UxVW and certain offi-
cers of that labor organization.
(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman, We undertook to hold a series of executive sessions
for the purpose of taking such testimony as Senator Curtis had in
mind to present. We proceeded in that manner until a few days ago,
at which time there had been certain developments that indicated to
the committee that we might as well proceed in open hearings with
the remainder of the matters that Senator Curtis cared to present.
Last Tuesday, the committee members voted unanimously to move
into public hearings, and that is where we are this afternoon. Because
of the closing days of the session of the Congress and the great burden
20109
20110 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
of unfinished business that the Congress is undertaking to transact
before adjournment, and because of the responsibilities of individual
Senators on the committee, some of which are equal to, if not greater
than, the responsibility and duty of attending the sessions of this
particular committee, we are having to make adjustments with respect
to the time of holding these public hearings so as to accommodate the
greatest number of the committee members, taking into accoimt their
other duties and responsibilities.
I know of nothing further to state at this time. We will just take
such testimony as Senator Curtis cares to present. Thereafter, the
committee may determine that it will want further testimony, or sum-
mon those who may be involved or who may be named in the testimony
that will be presented, who may desire to be heard or who may desire
to submit affidavits or other evidence that it feels that the committee
should waive.
I believe that is all the Chair thinks necessary to state at this time.
Does any other member of the committee have any comment before
we proceed ?
Senator Curtis. I think not, Mr. Chairman. In the interest of
saving time, I am ready to proceed with the first witness.
The Chairman. I have tried to state it as fairly as I know the
situation is.
Mr.Rauh?
Mr. Rauh. The transcript was made available to us at 12 o'clock
yesterday, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The Chair forgot to announce for the record that
at last Tuesday's meeting, at the time that the committee decided to
resolve the hearings into public sessions instead of executive sessions
for the taking of further testimony, the committee also, at the same
time, made public the testimony heretofore taken in the executive
sessions. I should have said that.
All right.
Senator Ervin. I think we might state also that at that time the
committee voted that if any witness whose testimony had been taken
in executive session desired to be permitted to testify in an open hear-
ing, he would be permitted to do so.
The Chairman. Yes ; I thank the Senator from North Carolina for
that comment. I tried, from memory, to state everything that I
thought should be stated at that time.
That is correct. The committee decided that any witness who had
testified in executive session, who requested to be heard in public
sessions, or any witness who had testified in executive session who any
member of the committee felt should testify again in public hearing,
that their request would be granted and the committee would hear
them.
All right, Mr. Rauh.
Mr. Rauh. All right, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Do you have a motion or a request ?
Mr. Rauh. I have a request, sir.
The Chairman. State the request briefly, please.
Mr. Rauh. On page 445 of the transcript which was made available
to us yesterday at the same time it was to the press, in the testimony
of Mr. Speidell, there are certain statements which, had there been a
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20111
staff investigation, would have been proved to have been false. I have
in my hand affidavits which were taken in 1950 when this matter was
investigated by the United Automobile Workers — and I might say
that everything that has come up has been investigated by our union —
I have here certain affidavits which completely refute Mr. Speidell's
testimony. My reason for calling them to your attention and asking
for the privilege of reading them is to demonstrate once again what
we have said, which is that unless there is a staff investigation before a
hearing, whether it be executive or public, mifairness is going to crop
up. Mr. Speidell made perjurous assertions against our union with-
out an
The Chairman. Just a moment. The Chair is not going to listen
to a speech or a statement about your having statements. If they
refute his testimony, and you would like to file them, that is one thing.
But do not make statements that will provoke others to get into argu-
ments on matters that may not be sworn testimony, about which wo
could not resolve the issue at this time.
Let us get a record and then, from the same record, we can come
to our own conclusions.
Mr. Rauh. Yes, sir ; I shall go right to that.
Mr. Speidell in his testimony referred to involuntary payments to
the flower fund by three gentlemen. This is on page 445 and subse-
quently. One is a dead man, which is always a safe way of making
assertions. But it so happens for Mr. Speidell's information
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Rauh. That I have
The Chairman. Just a moment.
All right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, we have witnesses here. Some of
them have been here 3 weeks, waiting to testify. It was not scheduled
that Mr. Rauh would be here and testify. If at a later time any mem-
ber wants to call somebody as a witness to ref ut anything in the record
that, of course, is their privilege. We are not through presenting our
evidence in reference to the flower fund, or the investigation thereof
of these matters which was conducted by the union.
The Chairman. Senator, if you would be patient for a moment,
I will require him, if he wants to do so, to file those affidavits for our
inspection. I will not make them a part of the record at this time. I
want to proceed. If we get into an argument, we will be continuing
for a long time.
Senator Curtis. But Mv. Rauh was proceeding to testifj-, and we
called the meeting, I thought, for something else.
The Chairman. I told him he would not testify, and the Chair will
enforce it.
If you want to submit your affidavits for the committee's consider-
ation, you may do so. I think the committee wants to get the truth,
and if you have affidavits there that refute what a witness has said,
you may submit them to the committee. We will examine them and
determine, the < ommittee will make the judgments, as to their ap-
propriate disposition or use.
Mr. Rauh. I would like to therefore submit, if I may, sir, an af-
fidavit by Mr. Peth, who is dead, but the affidavit was subscribed to
on June 6, 1950, completely contradicting Mr. Speidell. I would
20112 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
also like to submit an affidavit by Mr. Harold Dean, of the 7th of
June 1950, completely contradicting Mr. Speidell.
The Chairman. Is Mr. Dean living ?
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Dean is alive, on our staff, and available. Had there
been an investigation by the staff, these things would have come out.
The testimony would never have been given. And on behalf of our
union, sir, I protest that we are the only ones who have ever been so
treated.
The Chairman. Let the Chair make a statement.
You submit your affidavits. There has not been a full staff investi-
gation into this matter. This is a matter that Senator Curtis has re-
quested the committee to hear. We undertook to hear it in executive
session. As I stated earlier, there were some developments that indi-
cated to the committee that from here on the testimony might be taken
in public, and the committee so decided by unanimous vote.
We will proceed that way. The affidavits will be received for the
committee's consideration.
Senator Kennedy. , ,r ^^ ^ ^tt
Senator Kennedy. First, I would like to ask Mr. Manuel : Were
you aware of the existence of these affidavits?
Mr. Manuel. I have not inspected those affidavits. Senator Ken-
nedy.
Senator Kennedy. That is not the question.
Mr. Manuel. I do not know, sir. «>, •
Senator Kennedy. Were you aware of the existence of an affidavit
signed by Mr. Peth in this matter, or Mr. Harold Dean ?
Mr. Manuel. I am not aware of them ; no.
Senator Kennedy. This is the first you have heard of it ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir. ^ -, . , ^ ^,
Senator Kennedy. You never heard of these affidavits, that there
were affidavits in existence on this matter ?
Mr. Manuel. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. I would like to ask Mr. Rauh a question.
The Chairman. This will have to be a matter for information. He
is not a witness.
Senator Kennedy. I understand that. ^-, •
I am asking for information, Mr. Rauh. Why were affidavits ob-
tained ? Was this matter investigated before ?
Mr. Rauh. Senator Kennedy, in 1950 the entire question was in-
vestigated, not only the question of Mr. Gosser and the flower fund,
but the questions involving every witness that was standing in the hall
with me for the 3 days of the executive session. r TTA^xr
TV^at happened was that a Mr. Billheimer brought betore the U AW
28 charges. We held several hearings down in Toledo in 1950, and— —
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I object to the receiving of the
testimony by an unsworn witness. , . i . ■ j-
Senator Kennedy. Senator Curtis, I have asked this witness tor
information for my benefit. I am not going to be shut off from secur-
ing that information. He is not testifying. It is not under oath. It
is merely information I want to have as to whether this matter was
ever investigated. If it could have been determined that such sub-
penas were in existence in a public record, and if they could liave been
determined to be in existence, why didn't Mr. Manuel know of them?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20113
That is my question, and I have a right to get that information. I
would be delighted to have Mr. Rauh under oath, Mr. Chairman.
Tlie Chairman. That would not be necessary.
Senator Kennedy. And Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Rauh. I think I am under oath from the executive session, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Rauh was under oath from the executive ses-
sions. I thought counsel wanted some information.
Do you want Mr. Rauh sworn again and put under oath ?
Senator Kennedy. The question has been put.
The Chairman. I thought you were asking him for personal in-
formation.
Senator Kennedy. I was, but Senator Curtis objects. If Senator
Curtis wants him sworn in this matter, I am delighted to do so.
Senator Curtis. I am objecting to taking up the time by having
Mr, Rauh testify.
The Chairman. Proceed to make your statement, and we will go
along.
Senator Kennedy. I am only asking for the facts in this matter.
I am astonished that Senator Curtis is objecting to this.
Senator Curtis. I am objecting to the continuous filibuster against
proceeding with these hearings. That is what it is.
Senator Kennedy. Mr. Rauh ?
The Chairman. Make your answer short and let's move along.
Senator Kennedy. Let's continue, please, Mr. Rauh.
Mr. Rauh. I have here, sir, the full proceedings of the UAW on
June 19, 1950. It has in it Mr. Billheimer's complaint and the find-
ings on each event. It has Mr. Bolman's complaint back here, the
other gentleman, and the findings on his complaint. It has every
item, flower fund. Colonial Hardware, all the old stuff, 15 years old,
that is now being redone. We held an investigation
Senator Kennedy. Now, Mr. Rauh, you have given us information.
There was an investigation. I want to ask you this second question.
Was it published, this information ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Third, I want to ask Mr. Manuel this question :
Did you read the published record of the investigation which was
conducted which has been referred to by Mr. Rauh ?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir ; the findings, sir ?
Senator Kennedy. The published record of the investigation ?
Mr. Manuel. I am quite sure I have.
Senator Kennedy. Did you read in that case any reference to affi-
davits in this matter which would have contradicted the witness'
story?
Mr. Manuel. Yes, sir. I believe it does not refer to affidavits.
Senator Kjennedy. Did you make any attempt to secure those affi-
davits?
Mr. Manuel. I asked Mr, Rauh for all the transcripts and under-
lying evidence, that is, evidence underlying the findings, and he assured
me there was no record of that.
Mr. Rauh. That is not correct, sir.
Senator Kennedy. What is correct ?
The Chairman. Gentlemen, we will get into a controversy where we
have to put witnesses under oath.
20111 1M1MU>1'KU ACTlVrrUOS IN THE LABOU FIELD
Iji>(.'s prooood. Wo iiiivo Ihc nirulavils. As (ho tosi iinoiw dovolops, if
tluM-c is any oiu^ (hat. is luisrourosont in^' t'aols, wo will hiinti; t hom undor
oadi and lot (Iumm (ako (ho risk o( porjiiry. 1 don't know who is tell-
inii' ( ho ( rn( h. Thoy otiiih(. (o bo undor oaih if (hoy uro going in(o sub-
stan(ivo nia((ors liko (his.
Sona(or Ivkn ni.dy. Mr. Chainuan, (his connuitteo has some stand-
ing and s(a(uro, and, (horol'oro, whon you have an inves(ii»:a(ion by this
(•oiuini( (oo, any ohargos lovolod duriui!; such an invos(ioation are re-
gardod as having boon subs(an(ial. In ovory o(hor oaso which this
ooniuii((oo has ongagod, (ho ohargos made in a hearing should have
soiuo s(anding boi-auso ihoy have boon oaro fully invos(iga(od in nearly
every ease (ha( 1 can (hink of, prior (o (ho [)ublic or (ho priva(e in-
\es(iga(ion. In (liis casi-, (hey ha\o no( been. Here we have an
example of a. serious i'hargi> which was aired 5) years ago, being
co\oi(m1 in (ho press of (his country, which was (horoughly gone into,
wh(Me allida\ i(s were securinl, and we don't even have (he aHi(lavi(s pre-
senlod (o us.
1 am liuishod.
Senator (lOi.uwArKu. May 1 ask Mr. Kauh one (piost ion :
Who iuves(iga(od (hose charges^
Mr. IvAim. The United Au(onu)bile Workers, sir.
Sona(or (u^luwatku. The charges were agains(. (ho United Au(o-
mobile Workers^
Mr. IvAi'u. Ko, sir. These were charges by a very small dissident
group in ToKhIo, s(irreil up by (he omployoi-s who were (ighting our
pension light. iSo (hero were charges made against (he local union.
So. naturally, we investigated.
If any charges -.wo made against any local we will look into them.
A^'e want tosei>lhat e\ciy local isearefnl in its lumdling of alVairs. So
we lookcil into them. Actually, sir, you ha\e had these facts before
yi>ii for a year and a half, because 1 myself presen(eil (his record to
the committee slatV over a year and a half ago, about the qnestiiui, and
your stall' went to Toledo and inves(iga(ed (o be sure we had ilono a
»'aref\il job id' inves(iga(ing ourselves. 1 (hiidc the simple (hing might
be to make the Kamerick-Tiorney irport public This is a report by
your (Mvn stalf, a very careful job, I nuilerstand, referreil to in (he
iiearing"s. 1 have nmcr seen it, because it is a conlidcntial docunuMit
of the committee.
The (^UAiKiMAN. Are (horeany fur( her ques( ions ^
Sona((U* Ciuris. Mr. Chairman. 1 have a ivqucst for sinne infor-
u\a(ion of -Mr. Kauh.
"We have been asking for (he li-anseripi o( the testimony taken when
(he executive board of the I'.VAV in\estiga(ed (his ma(ter. AVe have
luHMi unable io get it. 1 belioxo I am stating (he i-ec«>rd C(U-roc(ly. (hat
the last (in\e we did have a sossiim here, Mr. SpeidoU (os( ilied under
«^a(h (ha( he apj>earoii a( (ha( meodngand (ha( a (ranscrip( wavS made.
My request is (o (he chairman (o ask Mr. Kauh (o bring in that (nin-
scrip(, (he (ranscrij>( of all (he (esiimony taken by (he exeeudvo lH>ard.
The (^lAiKMAN. The (liair will make (his s(a("ement for (ho record.
Mr. Kauh, as a((orney for (he I'.VAV, has agreed, ixnd a( all (imes
sii\ce any invest iga( ion of (he I "AAV was s(artevl by this connnittee,
(hn>ugh i(s a((m-ney, i( agreed (ha( it would supply any and all
docnnunUs, rcv-orils, and so fortli in its pi>ssi\<;siini tliat the connnitdv
migh( desire ui>on riH\uest and without subpena.
IMl'UOPKU ACriVFTIKS IN 'I'l I K I.AltOK \\]>]^^^ 201 IT)
ViH- (liiil iv:is()ii, (Iio(;ii:iir asks you (li<> (iiK'slion : Do you love (ll(^
(lociiiiuMil, ivfcnHMl i,o by Soiialoi' ('ur( is'^
Mr. IvAuii. 'riicnv is no (lociiiiuMil., aiul Soiiiiior (yiirlis knows il,.
Wli:i(, happiMU'd was (his Spcidcll didn't, ioslily t.lio way Se,nal,or
( 'ni-( is said.
'riic CiiAMtMAN. LcCs do nol al•o•ll(^ dial,. Do yon have, (lie docu-
IlKMll '!*
Mr. Kai'ii. TIkmc is no sncli docunicnl. Tlicrc never lias hecn sncli
a dociuncnt.
TIh^ CiiAiKMAN. TluM) yoii cairi. prodiico wind, isn'l,.
Mr. Rauii. 1 havofold Mr. Manuel 15 (inies tJiere is no such (huai-
nienl, sii'.
'l'h(^ CiiAiKMAN. K'ijL'Jil, ih(Mi. There is no such docunieni,.
S(»na.(or (Unrris. AVas (here exci-:'
The CiiAiKMAN. If (hel■(^ is any (h>uhl, ahou( i(, we will pul him
under oa(h.
Sej)a((>i- CuKiMS. "Was ( heri> any docinneii(.'^ Was (here any (rans-
script, inadei'
Mr. Rauii. No, sir; and Speidell ne.yer said (lia(, llieiv. was.
Sena(()i- (-uirris. Was (here a. (raiiscrip( made lu-fore ( h(« connnilie-t^
lha(. (ook (he. testimony prior (o (he cxeiMHive board hearin<i;!^
Mr. IvAiiii. No, sii-.
(A( (his poin( Sena(oi' Mun(l( wididrew from (he heai-ino- I'oom.)
Sena(or Cuu'ris. We will be nd'errin-i- (o i( as (inie yoes on"" I have
i(, h.M-e.
The (^lAiiaiAN. May I say (ha( any (ini(«you wan( Mr. K'auh as a
w idii'ss, w(> will call him.
Sena(or Ivknnkdv. Mr. Kanli lias jus( Iummi cliall(>n<;e(l by bis s(a(.e-
men(. Did he say (bat some( hino-"did ,,<)( (>.\is(, and yo'u say (bid,
you had i(?
Sena(or (^umis. I ha\'e a lelier da(e(l ,Imi(> i'J, l!).^»(), sen( (o Mr.
I^'.dward Duck, 2h'2i) (Jeoro-ciow n Ay(Miue, 'I'oledo, ( )hio.
I>KAU I'.rtOTiiKK Duck: Enclosed is a I raiiscripl of Ihc licMriiif,' of you and
.voiir coiimiilh-c' before (lie Specijil 'I'olc.lo invest imU iim <'oinniillee on" lime I
I'ir.O.
I'^raleniiiNy yours,
Mm h, I\I a/,iov.
Mr. Kauii. Thai, may have been a. pari, of a (ranscri|)(. I have
cbecked 50 limes. There is no (raus(M-ip(, of (be. bearinos. We have
cbeck(>d and Speidell nev(>r said tbei-o was. 1 1' a small pai-t of it was
(ranscrd)ed and you have i(, I am very ^dad you have i(. If 1 bad
any of i(,you would be w^ry wel'Come(<) i(..
The (^iiAiiuiAN. ^'ou s(a(e (ha( (b(>re is no(hin<^r (1,„( y,,,, hav(>.
(ba( you can (urn over iu (lia( connec(ion^
Mr. i\Ai:ii. Absolu((dy.
Th(^('llAII{MAN. And'you s(a(eyou havedirned ov(>r (o (he conimil-
(ee already wba(evei-y<)n have i'
iMr. Kauii. Eveiylhiuir 1 could lay my baiidson.
'riieCiiAiuMAN. Alh-iojii. Slan'd aside.
Tb(> (irs( wbness is Mr. Mo( singer.
(Mendiers of (he commi((e(. presen( : Sena(ors McCMellan, Krvin,
(.hiirch, Kennedy, (ioldwaler, and Cur(is.)
TheC'iiAiuMAN. I'lea.se besworn.
20116 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this com-
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JESS R MOTSINGER
The Chairman. State your name, your place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. My name is Jess F. Motsinger. I reside at 15480
Turner, Detroit, Mich. My present occupation is maintenance sched-
uled worker of a Ford plant in Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. You waive counsel, do you ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Motsinger
The Chairman. Senator Curtis, may I ask if you have witness
sheets on these witnesses ?
No witness sheets.
Proceed.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Motsinger, are you a member of a union now ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What union ?
Mr. Motsinger. I am a member of Local 228, UAW-CIO.
Senator Curtis. How long have you been a union member ?
Mr. Motsinger. I have been a union member in this union approxi-
mately 17 years.
Senator Curtis. In this union, meaning this particular local or the
UAW?
Mr. Motsinger. No ; the UAW. In this local for a period of nearly
3 years.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever held an office in a local union ?
Mr. Motsinger. In the present local ?
Senator Curtis. In any local.
Mr. Motsinger. Yes.
Senator Curtis. What was the first union office you had ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I think that I have held every office that is
within the UAW local, which included steward, regional steward, shift
steward, shift chairman, shift vice president, educational director in a
local union, newspaper editor for 2 years in a local union, president of
the 11,000- or 12,000-member Kaiser- Frazer Local 142.
Senator Curtis. When were you made president of local 142 ?
Mr. Motsinger. 1950 and 1951.
Senator Curtis. You were elected to that office ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. For how long a term were you elected ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, the term is normally for 1 year. That can
vary to the extent, based on the elections, of from 12 months to 14 or
15 months.
Senator Curtis. How many times were you elected ?
Mr. Motsinger. I was only elected once, because I did not run but
once.
(At this point Senator Mundt returned to the hearing room.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20117
Senator Curtis. What was the occasion that you did not run again ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, it was necessary at the time to form a coali-
tion between two groups in a plant to prevent an undesirable group
of a third group from possibly getting control of the UAW local.
Senator Curtis. And you stepped aside ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, I stepped aside only in this respect: The
coalition was between the group that I was in, or just more or less
classified as in, which was the international group, and some of the
people, the prior president whom I had defeated, and his group, which
were two of the large groups, political groups, in the plant.
Senator Curtis. What position did you take then ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I took the position — ran for the position of bar-
gaining committee or negotiator, which is a position that is equal
to — well, financially it is gi*eater than the president's job of a lo-
cal.
Senator Curtis. Was both the president's job and this chairman
of the bargaining committee a salaried job ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. The president's job was a full-time salaried job out
of the plant.
Senator Curtis. What was your salary, if you recall ?
Mr. Moi'SiNGER. I believe it was $5,550 salary plus $45 or $50 ex-
pense.
Senator Curtis. Per month or per week ?
Mr, MoTSiNGER. $5,500 a year and — I think the total expense and
salary was around $7,500.
Senator Curtis. About what did you draw as head of the bargain-
ing committee?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. In the bargaining committee of that type miion
in Kaiser's, especially under that contract, all of the 80 full-time
union representatives in the plant were paid by the Kaiser Corp. The
salaries of the bargaining committee, of the five-man bargaining com-
mittee, was based on the number of hours allowed each week at the
rate that the man's actual classification in the plant would pay him.
By that, if he made $2 an hour in the plant, and the plant worked
under that contract overtime, 60, 70, or 80 hours, then the bargaining
committee got paid for all the time that anybody in the plant worked,
although the bargaining committee did not work.
Senator Curtis. But the bargaining committee was a higher pay-
ing salary than the president of the local ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Have you ever been defeated for a union office?
Mr. Motsinger. Not in the 17 years in the UAW. I have never
been defeated as an officeholder incumbent in my life, up to the pres-
ent time, now.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Motsinger, did you later become an inter-
national representative?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. I was appointed by Mr. Reuther as an
international representative early in 1953.
Senator Curtis. Early in 1953 ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How long did you continue to be an international
representative ?
20118 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I served as an international representative until
some time in 1955.
Senator Curtis. About what time of the year ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. In the early part. I believe it was in January.
I can tell you in a minute, if it is important.
Senator Curtis. That is all.
Now, Mr. Motsinger, where were you first assigned when you be-
came an international representative ?
Mr. Motsinger. Where I was first assigned ? The story that was
released from Solidarity House was that I was assigned to the GSA —
I believe it is general administrative staff, and was sent to the west
side of Detroit in region 1, which is, I believe, the largest region in
the UAW.
Senator Curtis. Do you know Richard Gosser ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were you at any time as an international rep-
resentative assigned to him ? Or under his jurisdiction ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. I was assigned to Richard Gosser's staff
sometime in July of 1953.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Motsinger, do they have in the UAW a
fund called the flower fund ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you make payments to it ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you recall about when you began making
payments to it ?
Mr. Motsinger. I started making payments to the flower fund upon
my assignment to Mr. Gosser's staff, which I believe was in July
of 1953.
Senator Curtis. Do you recall how you first heard about the
flower fund ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Tell us about it.
Mr. Motsinger. Well, the flower fund actually was no secret between
UAW members in the plant. Let's say the more learned members, of
the functioning of the UAW
The Chairman. What kind of members ?
Mr. Motsinger. I mean the members in tlie plant ^^■ho were a little
bit more learned about the functions of the UAW.
The Chairman. In other words, those familiar with the union
affairs knew about tlie flower fund ?
Mr. Motsinger. That is right, that is exactly it. I would say this,
all of us politicians in the union, to make it clear, knew that flower
funds existed on the international staff. We didn't know the amount
or such things as that.
Senator Curtis. "V^Hien was it first called to your attention that
you should pay to the flower fund ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, wliile I was floating on the general admin-
istrative staff, on McKusker's staff on the west side, the other rep-
resentatives who were on tliat staff were continuously making remarks
about the flower fund and the fund you paid into, and I was ques-
tioned as to what I was paying, inasmuch as most of these representa-
tives, I would think that all of them, though I might be wrong
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20119
about that, had come out of a Ford union, local 600 at that time, I
think.
Senator Curtis. Did somebody make a direct request or direction
tiiat you make a payment to a flower fund ?
Mr. MoTSiKGER. Not there.
Senator Curtis. I mean, eventually, did it come to a head and
somebody asked you to pay ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How was that request made ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. "Wlien I was placed on Mr. Gosser's staff, taken off
of the west side and out of region 1, on to his staff. I was called in to
Mr. Gosser's office by his administrative assistant.
Senator Curtis. Which one of Mr. Gosser's offices, the one in
Detroit or Toledo?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I have never been in except the one office, and that
is the main office in Detroit. I know nothing about Toledo and
Gosser's office.
Senator Curtis. You were called in to the Detroit office?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Right, sir.
Senator Curtis. By whom?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, by Walter Madrzykowski ; who is an ad-
ministrative assistant of Mr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. What was said ? Can you spell Madrzykowski ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. M-a-d-r-z-y-k-o-w-s-k-i or y. I would not know
which.
Senator Curtis. l^Hiat did he say to you?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, I was merely informed of a change in status,
that I was going to be assigned duties on the competitive shop division
oftheUAW.
Senator Curtis. That is headed by Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes. And that I would be assigned in other cities
out of Detroit on the competitive shop, possibly the skilled trades and
the organizational staff, in the field.
Senator Curtis. What did they say about the flower fund ?
Mr, MoTSiNGER. I was told by Mr. Madrzykowski — I was given an
indoctrination lecture on the do's and don'ts, if's pertaining to the
job, and how to make out my expense sheets. I was told that I would
be paying the flower fund, and that the amount had not been definitely
determined as yet, but until then I would pay $10 — or $5 a week, which
would be $10 every pay period, of the expense account.
Senator Curtis. Were you told how to make that payment?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. How were you to make the payment?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I was told to make the payments in cash. I was
warned not to have to be asked about it, ever.
Senator Curtis. Did you make these payments when you were away
from the main office ?
Mr. IMoTsiNGER. We were away from the main office, with the ex-
ception of returns home periodically, maybe a quarter of a year or
8 months or 4 months or something. We were always away.
Senator Curtis. How did yon malce those payments while you were
awav.
20120 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoTSiNGER. All flower fund payments that I know of, and that I
know of being made, were made in cash, pinned to that expense accomit
for that week, or that pay period.
Senator Curtis. Wlien you made out a bill for your expenses and
sent it in, you clipped to that your payment to the flower fund ?
Mr, MoTsiNGER. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Were you told that you had to do that, that you
hadtopay it? . , . ,
Mr. Motsinger. Well, Senator, I explamed that m this way, by
saying I was told what to pay and how much to pay, when I was trans-
ferred to that department, and not to ever have to be reminded of it.
Senator Curtis. Well, were you ever reminded of it at a later time ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, yes.
Senator Curtis. Tell us about that.
Mr. Motsinger. Well, my personal— being reminded as far as my
part of it was concerned, happened on an occasion in Canton, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. What happened ?
Mr. Motsinger. That is when I was sent into that town. Well, 1
had gotten behind 1 week or 2, and they had missed my check, my
paycheck, to another town, and I had received no paycheck. I had
protested that, and I had made calls to Detroit. But when I sent my
expense account in for the week, I omitted a receipt for some phone
calls, as I recall, pertaining to my paycheck being missent to Elyria^
Ohio, when I was 60 or 70 miles, or whatever the distance is, from that
town. So my expense check, I received a call about it from the Soli-
darity House, and I was told about it by Madrzykowski. I pointed
out that I resented my paycheck or expense account check should be
held up under the guise of failure to send in a receipt. It developed
that the flower fund was what they were mad about. I informed Mr.
Jkladrzykowski that I resented very much that type of tactics and that I
would send him a check for the flower fund, because I was rather
mad.
Senator Curtis. Was this a conversation when he was present or
was it a telephone conversation ?
Mr. Motsinger. That was from Detroit to Canton.
Senator Curtis. A telephone conversation ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes.
Senator Curtis. ^Yhat did he say about sending in a check ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, he made statements to the effect about "Now^
look, goddam it, Motsinger, who the hell do you think we are down
here? We are not dummies, you know. You send the check here.
You will get it right back button won't get your exi>ense check."
Senator Curtis. So what did you have to do ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, what would you do?
Senator Curtis. Just for the record, did you send the money in in
cash ?
Mr. Motsinger. I sent the money in.
Senator Curtis. Did you continue to pay
The Chairman. Will you state the date or about the time this hap-
pened? Would you state about the time this happened, Mr. Mot-
singer ? What year ? How long ago has it been ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I was over there part of 1953 and 1954.
The Chairman. So it was in that period of time ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 20121
]\rr. MoTsiNGER. I would say it was in 1952.
The Chairman. All right.
Just one other thing to get clear: When you say you had sent in
your expense account, you would send the $10, or whatever it was ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you supposed to pad your expense account in
order to make up for that, or were you to actually take it out of your
own pay and send it ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No, that was to come from your pay.
The Chairman. It was not any padding of expense account or
anything?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. You couldn't get reimbursed for that.
The Chairman. That had to come out of your salary ?
Mr. Motsinger. That is right, out of my own salary.
Senator Curtis. Did you continue with substantial regularity of
the payment of this $5 a week all the time that you were an inter-
national representative?
Mr. Motsinger. I do not think that I missed more than one or
possibly 2 weeks after that.
Senator Curtis. And that was $5 a week ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes.
Senator Curtis. And from the conversation and the treatment you
received, you regarded it as a necessity to keep those payments up, is
that correct ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I felt that there was no question about it, if
I wanted to remain on the staff.
Senator Curtis. And you always paid it in cash?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever get an accounting of the expending
of that money ?
Mr. Motsinger. No. I never heard of anyone that ever did, as far
as that goes.
Senator Kennedy. What was that last bit ?
Mr. Motsinger. Did I ever have an accounting or hear of an ac-
counting of the flower fund.
No, I don't know of anyone in the UAW that ever did, as far as I
know.
Senator Curtis. Who did you send the flower fund to ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, our expense sheets were sent in, as I recall,
in duplicate. I believe one was to Mazey's office and one was to
Gosser's office, I believe was the way we sent that in, in duplicate, and
it was to be attached to the executive shop, that was who you worked
for.
Senator Mundt. Would you pin this flower fund
Mr. Motsinger. I might add this while it is on my mind. I, being
rnad, printed on the expense account sheet in colored pencil — I am a
signwriter — and I happened to print it on there in fancy color across
the face of the expense sheet, that money for flower fund will follow
later because I recalled that Madrzykowski either told me on the phone
or personally, I believe it was on the phone in that conversation that
I know god damned well better than to do a thing like that. He says,
"That expense sheet has to go upstairs."
The Chairman. Where you can restrain yourself and refine the
language, please do so.
\
20122 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, MoTsiNGER. I assure you, Senator, it is no trouble to me to
restrain myself, but I was waiting for someone else to delete it.
The Chairman. Why do you not just say, "With an oath he said,"
so and so?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Very well, sir. We will let them guess at it.
The Chairman. I am not tryino; to detract from the impact or the
import of your testimony at all, but you can say, "With an oath he
said," so and so.
Mr. Motsinger. Very well, sir.
Senator Cmrns. Mr. Motsinger, if you paid $5 a week, and assum-
ing you did not miss in a given year, that would be about $260 a year;
would it not?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Do you know how many international representa-
tives were assigned to Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Motsinger. I believe you are wrong in your figures. I believe
52 times 5— that's right. I do not want to make this bigger than it
actually is.
Senator Curtis. How many international representatives are as-
signed to Mr. Gosser?
Mr. Motsinger. Currently ?
Senator Curtis Yes, or then, either one, if you Imow.
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I believe at that time— I liave the Christmas
list. I think there was 130-some on Gosser's staff on the sheet that
he mailed out with the home addresses.
Senator Curtis. 130?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. That is the number that is listed on the
sheet that he mails out that are classified as international representa-
tives on Richard Gosser's staff.
Senator Curtis. Do you have such a sheet ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. ,
Senator Curtis. What is the approximate date of it? What year i
Is it the current one or does it relate back to this time?
Mr. Motsinger. Sir, I would say it is in the 1953 or 1954 or I
wouldn't have it. . , -i t i i
Can we continue with the questioning, if you please, sir, while i looii
for it ?
Senator Curtis. We got started about 6 :10 and if you cannot find
Mr. Motsinger. Here it is.
The Chairman. What is the document that you have ?
Mr Motsinger. Home address of international representatives on
the staff of Vice President Richard Gosser, and this is the list with
Gosser's picture. .„ . ^ ., i rn, j.
Tlie Chairman. I am just trying to identify it for the record, i hat
is a list of all the international representatives that worked under Mr.
Gosser at that time; is that correct?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I would have to assume that it is from this,
because I did not have no way of knowing.
The Chairman. That is what it purports to be? _
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir ; that is what he says it is.
The Chairman. That is what it purports to be ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. , ., . ^t o. i- £
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 21 for reference.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20123
(The document referred to was murked "Exliibit No. 21" for refer-
ence and may be found in the tiles of tlie select committee.)
Mr, MoTsiNGER, May I request that I have this stuff returned to
me?
The Chairman. Well, sir, I do not know about that. If they become
official documents, reference made to them for quite some time. Is
that all you have ?
Mr. MoTsiNGKu. No. It is possible that other documents might be
forthcoming that I certainly would want to keep for my personal
records. That, in itself, is not of importance
The (^HAiHMAN. The Chair will say this to you : If you have a docu-
ment that you desire to have returned to you, the committee will take
custody of it for a sufficient time to make copies so that the original may
be returned to you.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is perfectly agreeable to me.
Senator Curtis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I believe, and you do not need to take time to figure this up, unless
you have already, that 130 representatives, if they contribute $260
a year, would be $33,800.
Senator Kennedy. Is that a question ?
(At this point, Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Kennedy. Is that a question ?
Senator Curtis. No.
Senator Kennedy. You said if they produced it.
Senator Curtis. I said I believed it would figure out to that.
Senator Kennedy. Will there be evidence that others are contrib-
uting $5 a week ?
Senator Curtis. You will have to ask them.
Mr. Motsinger, do you know anybody else who contributed to this?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I know of people who complained to me that
they contributed to it.
Senator Curtis. We have asked for the records and asked for them
repeatedly. Thci;e was brouglit in some records showing some flower
funds for 1959 only. They have not produced the records of the
flower fund for the prior years, even the immediate past.
Mr. Motsinger, did you make any other payment in the nature of a
political payment, a PAC payment or otherwise, or some such name as
that?
(At this point. Senator McClellan reentered the hearing room.)
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Who requested that ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, the request for money for political action to
be taken out of my check came in tlie form of a letter from Emil
Mazey's office with an attached card, form card, of the UAW, Mazey's
office, where I was to make — well, it had the statement pre]:)ared.
Senator Mundt. Are you talking now" about a contribution to the
flower fund or a contribution to a political action committee?
Mr. Motsinger. This has nothing to do with the flower fund. If
we are li'oing to talk about the flower fund, let's don't confuse me.
Let's talk about flower fund and political action separately.
Senator Mundt. I am trying to distinguish in my own mind if
these are two separate funds.
Mr. Motsinger. This has nothinir to do with the flower fund of
the UAW.
20124 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. This is an additional payment ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. This is a political contribution for political action
of the International UAW-CIO. That is all I can tell you.
(At this point, Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Senator Curtis. You received a letter from Mr. Mazey ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir, with a card.
Senator Curtis. Do you have that letter ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, sir. This, I might add, came when I went
on the staff originally and was assigned to general administrative out
on the west side of Detroit.
Senator Curtis. Do you have that letter ?
Mr. Motsinger. I have the card that I signed with the statements
on it that you are supposed to make and sign. This is all attached
together, but the card is headed, "To Emil Mazey, Secretary-Treasurer,
UAW-CIO.^'
Senator Curtis. When this request came, did you get more than
one card ?
Mr. Motsinger. I received this card and letter.
Senator Curtis. Do you still have the letter ?
Mr. Motsinger. No," I do not think I have that letter. I was sup-
posed to send this back in.
Senator Mundt. I see you have an envelope in your hand. Is there
a postmark on the envelope as to when this occurred ?
Mr. Motsinger. This is not the same envelope, but I received this
and I refused to send it back in. I held it because I protested it. _ I
kept it until I was called on it by Mazey, and I told him I had lost it,
so they sent me out another one. I did sign it and I signed this one,
but I did not send it in.
Senator Curtis. You signed the second one for your records ?
Mr. Motsinger. Xo. I signed the second one and sent it in to them.
Senator Curtis. But the one you kept^ — they were both alike?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, exactly.
Senator Curtis. And you signed one and sent it in and you signed
the other one for your record ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Now, will you read the card that you signed and
kept for your record ?
Mr. Motsinger (reading) ;
Effective with pay period commencing August 2, 1953 and continuing until I
notify you otherwise, I am requesting that you deduct the sum of $2 each week
from my salary. This sum is to be paid to the UAW-GIO political action ac-
count as a voluntary contribution from me.
Name of the representative, with the office, L. I. U. 72 CIO, and I
have the date on here when I signed it, July 9, 1953.
Senator Curtis. What did you sign on it ?
Mr. Motsinger. I signed J. F. Motsinger, my name, and sent it in.
Senator Curtis. Was that voluntary ? Were you told that you must
do that?
Mr. Motsinger. I would put it this way : It is about as voluntary as
a traffic ticket, as far as I am concerned. I knew what would hap-
pen if I didn't.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20125
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Motsinger, would this payment be in the
form of an assessment? Would it have the same effect as an assess-
ment ?
Mr. Motsinger. An assessment ?
Senator Goldwater. Yes.
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I think literally, it is an assessment, but I am
not sure it is in the form of an assessment that goes out legally through
the chaimels of the UAW.
Senator Goldwater. In your union, do you have to pay your assess-
ments before you can pay your dues ?
Mr. Motsinger. It has been so long since I paid any assessments,
actually, that I don't know. Our dues is all checkoff. My dues is
checkoff.
Senator Goldwater. It is all checkoff ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes. The dues are taken out of your check. You
do not pay those, unless you make special provisions for that, that you
refuse to pay by checkoff and want to pay them at the office yourself.
Well, mine has always been on a checkoff.
Senator Goldwater. The reason I asked that was that in my part of
the country the contributions to PAC were in assessment form and if
they were not paid you could not pay your dues. If you did not pay
your dues, you were not a member in good standing. I wanted to find
out if that same procedure applied in the union of which you are a
member.
Mr. Motsinger. No.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Motsinger, this card authorized them to take
$2 a week out of your paycheck ; is that right ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir ; $8 per month.
Senator Curtis. Do you have any card or any other record showing
the deductions from one or more of your paychecks which shows this
item '?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, the deduction was made under the form of
"V,-' miscellaneous.
Senator Curtis. What do you have ?
Mr. Motsinger. The yellow check stub. I believe it was taken out
under '*V" which, in code, means miscellaneous.
Senator Curtis. What is that card you are reading from ?
Mr. Motsinger. This is my pay stub.
Senator Curtis. That comes with your paycheck ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Will you read the entire card ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I think it is too lengthy for that.
Senator Curtis. What is the title ? What does it say ?
Mr. Motsinger (reading) :
Explanation of code letters, earnings, deductions, and balances.
The date is January 1-15, 1955.
Senator Curtis. What was deducted from your paycheck, accord-
ing to that card ?
Mr. Motsinger. According to that card, "E," $11.50.
Senator Curtis. Do you know what that was for ?
Mr. Motsinger. Severance.
Senator Curtis. All right.
20126 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR PIELD
Mr. MoTSiNGER "F.U.," $33.10.
Senator Curtis Do you know what the $33 was for ?
Mr. ]\IoTSiNGER. I don't remember, but that is quite a gouge.
(At this point, Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Senator Ctirtis. What else does it say?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. The code for that, sir, is not on here, but I really
believe it is withholding, but I am not sure. Then "G.S.," $50. I
believe that was bonds. "M" was $6, and that is group insurance.
"V" is $4, which is miscellaneous.
Senator Curtis. And you know that $4 to be the payment for the
political fund relating to the card that you signed at Mazey's request?
Mr. ]\IoTsiNGER. Well, there is no question about that, I don't think.
The Chairman. Have you a card that you want made an exhibit ?
Senator Curtis. I am not asking that it be made an exhibit. He
has read the pertinent parts into the record.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Motsinger, at any time during this time
did you get a letter from Mr. Mazey that referred to the disposition
of these funds and any "thank you" you might get in reference to it?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir
Senator Curtis. Do you have that letter there ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Will you read it, please?
The Chairman. Let us see it. Do you have the original letter ?
Mr. Motsinger. It is the original from "Solidarity" on Mr. Mazey's
stationery over his signature.
The Chairman. If any member wishes to see it, he may.
Do you intend to make it an exhibit ?
Senator Curtis. Not if he reads it in. It is short.
The Chairman. All right. Any member wishing to see it may do
so.
Mr. Motsinger. It is :
Greetings, Board Members and International Representatives:
From time to time you will receive letters of thanks from candidates for
Federal office for donations they have received from you. This is occasioned by
the fact that when a donation is made from the UAW-CIO political-action ac-
count to a candidate for Federal office, a list of names along with these amounts
donated is sent him. This list of names is compiled from the list of individuals
who made biweekly donations to our UAW-CIO political action account.
Fraternally,
Emil Mazet,
Secretary-Treasurer, UAW.
Senator Curtis. Did you read the date of that ?
Mr. Motsinger. That is July 23, 1954.
The Chairman. That was a separate fund to the flower fund, is it ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes ; there is no checks.
The Chairman. That has no connection with the flower fund ?
Mr. Motsinger. Inasmuch as I don't know where either one went,
I would say if there was any connection it was after I paid them.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, while you were out, I brought out
that one was the flower fund and the other is a political action, a
separate fund.
The Chairman. They originated as separate funds ?
Mr. Motsinger. That is risht.
IIMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20127
The Chairman. And this letter is telling you that out of this polit-
ical action fund, they would make donations to Federal candidates for
office and send a list of the names as if you, as an individual and others
as individuals, had made the donation rather than coming out of a
political action fund of the miion. Is that correct ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That would be my idea of why the purpose is, or
the letter would come to me so that I would not be writing some Sen-
ator and telling him I didn't send him $10.
The Chairman. I am trying to get this record straight. I was out
for a moment, but they would collect from you and others a political-
action fund. Then, the decision as to whom it would be donated to or
any part of it donated to would be made somewhere else ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
The Chairman. They would turn in your name, because you had
donated to a political action fund, as a donor to a specific candidate,
and you might get a letter from that specific candidate saying,
"Thank you for the $2," or the $10, whatever it was, and you would
not know about it, except that it went through the political action
fund of the union ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. That is right. I do not recall that anyone was
ever asked to designate their contributions to political action to
any
The Chairman. Did you ever get a letter from a Senator or Con-
gressman thanking you for your fund ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. From whom did you get the letter ?
Mr. Motsinger. I received the letter on franked, U.S. Senate
stationer}^, from Senator Guy Gillette. It says :
My Dear Friend: I have been advised that you were generous enough to
contribute $10 to aid in the campaign in which I am engaged for reelection
as U.S. Senator from Iowa. Because of the increased use of television and
radio, campaigns have become much more expensive and since I have limited
means of my own, I am very grateful for the assistance of friends in meeting the
campaign expenses.
Thank you sincerely for your generous help.
Sincerely,
Guy Glllette.
The Chairman. That was a $10 donation ; is that right ?
Mr. Motsinger. That is the amount that is specified in the first para-
graph here by Mr. Gillette.
Senator Curtis. Do you have the envelope that that letter came
in?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Wliom is that addressed to ?
Mr. Motsinger. Mr. J. F. Motsinger, 3237 Choate, Detroit, Mich.
The Chairman. The Chair is going to rule that that letter will
have to be made an exhibit. You used the name of someone who
signed it. That letter will have to be made an exhibit. It will be
made exhibit No. 22.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 22" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee. )
The Chairman. Exhibit 22 may be photostated and the original
returned to you if you want it returned to you.
Mr. Motsinger. I have no objections as long as the material is con-
cerned what you people do with it.
20128 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Well, when you read a letter, I think, certainly,
the party mentioned in there is entitled to see it, examine it, and see
if it is his signature and so forth. For that reason I am making it an
exhibit.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I would think so.
Senator Mundt. Do you know Guy Gillette of Iowa ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No ; I don't know him.
Senator Mundt. Have you ever met him ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No, sir ; not that I know of.
Senator Mundt. Have you any reason why you want to contribute
to his campaign ?
Mr. MOTSINGER. No.
Senator Mundt. Let me ask you this : Were you ever consulted by
whoever passed out this money as to which candidates you would like
to contribute to, or did they simply take the money from you and
somebody up on top decided where it was going to be spent ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. No ; I don't recall that anyone in the UAW anytime
ever asked me about where any contribution that was made would be
assigned.
Senator Mundt. In other words, your testimony is that you had
nothing to say whether this money went to Guy Gillette or Joe Bloke ^
Mr. Motsinger. I don't recall.
Senator Mundt. When it went into a campaign in Iowa or in any
one of the other 50 States of the Union now ?
Mr. Motsinger. No. I hardly think that I was asked about any-
thing like that because, preferably, if I were to make contributions
from my paycheck to anyone running for the Senate, I would prefer
to make it for Senators from m}^ home State of Arkansas or the State
of Michigan.
The Chairman. Do you live in Arkansas ?
Mr. Motsinger. Sir ?
The Chairman. You said your home State of Arkansas. Are you
a resident of Arkansas ?
Mr. Motsinger. I am not a resident at the present time. I am a
native.
The Chairman. Where were you born ?
Mr. Motsinger. Northeast part. Clay County.
The Chairman. Very good.
Senator Mundt. We won't hold that against you, Mr. Motsinger.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Motsinger, did you ever live in Iowa ?
Mr. Motsinger. No.
Senator Mundt. Did you ever vote in Iowa ?
Mr. Motsinger. No.
Senator Mundt. Do you have any reason why you would want to
contribute to any candidate in Iowa ?
Mr. Motsinger. No. As I say, I would make contributions, if I
had a choice, to people I know. As far as Senator Gillette is con-
cerned, I use his razors, if he makes them.
Senator Mundt. I think that is a different Gillette, but that is all
right.
Senator Church. Mr. Motsinger, there was really no hocus-pocus
about this PAC fund; was there? You understood that the $2 was
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20129
going each week into a fund which was going to be used for the pur-
pose of making donations to candidates in the union favor ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. There was no question in my mind about the PAC
deduction — that it was going to happen — because before I w\as as-
sessed with it from the international staff, I had heard rumors, if this
is admissible, that when I went on the staff— the convention was com-
ing up within 2 weeks— the national convention, and Reuther was go-
ing to accept a raise; all the administrative officers were going to get
a raise. The raise was going to be passed down to the representatives,
and we were going to be jumped from 90 or 95 a week plus expenses
to $115 plus expenses, but we w^ere going to get tapped for PAC for
a certain amount of it.
Senator Ciiukcii. You knew what the purpose of the PAC fund
was going to be and that was all disclosed to you — that it was going
to be a fund that was going to be used for the support of candidates
for public office ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
Senator Church. So it was no surprise to you when you received
this letter. It was in accordance with what your understanding had
been from the beginning — that this money was going into a general
fmid, and that the union officers were going to use it for pui-poses
of campaign donations and participations in the campaigns of those
candidates that the miion favored, who were standing for office. You
understood what it was about ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I wdll put it this way : I understood what the money
was going to be used for — for political action by the UAW.
Senator Church. You are actually saying the same thing in dif-
ferent words.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is the shortest way I know how to say it—
that I knew it was going to be used for political action.
Senator Church. As international representative, you worked for
and represented the international officers of the UAW, did you not,
and particularly Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Church. So that you were a representative of the leader-
ship of the union — those that have the high governing offices of the
union?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Church. Do you know whether the members of the union
who were the workers in the plant made contributions or had to make
weekly contributions to the flower fund ?
Mr. MoTsixGER. Members in the plant ?
Senator Church. Yes. The ordinary UAW w^orkers in the plant —
any of the plants.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No, I don't think any member of the UAW, as far
as the plants were concerned, was ever asked or would have made a
contribution to a flower fund that w^as set up by the international
imion; no.
Senator Church. They did not make contributions to this flower
fund, did they ?
Mr. Motsinger. I would not think so. I never heard of it.
Senator Church. Do you know whether or not they had any regu-
lar weekly or monthly deductions made for the purposes of the PAC
fund?
I
20130 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoTSiNGER. You are speaking of the rank and file members?
Senator Church. I am talking about the rank and file members.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. The membership ?
Senator Church. The membership of the union.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. No. His contributions were collected or asked for
by the local union officers.
Senator Church, As a voluntary proposition ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, in the
Senator Church. So this thing that you have described here was
something that related to the people who were the international rep-
resentatives, working for the governing leadership of the union?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I fail to understand you there. I do not want to
answer that until we understand each other.
Senator Church. I think you do. What you have testified here
applied to international representatives and board members who were
working for the international officers of the union, like Mr. Gosser.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
Senator Church. I just want to establish the fact that what we
are talking about here relates to a special gi'oup working for the offi-
cers of the union and does not apply to the rank and file membership
of the union working in the plants. I think your testimony does make
that clear.
Senator Kennedy. May I ask a couple of questions ?
The Chairman. Let me ask one first, if you will.
Do you know of any money paid out or donations made from the
union treasury, that is, from dues money paid in by the members,
paid out of the union treasury to the flower fund or to the political
action fund? .^ -,
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Senator McClellan, that is a difficult question to
answer for a local union to this extent : I know of no local union that
pays into a flower fund. That is the flower fund specifically.
The Chairman. You are talking about the international flower
fund?
Mr. Motsinger. That is exactly correct.
The Chairman. Of course, some local union may have its own sepa-
rate funds of its officers, but you would not know about that.
Mr. Motsinger. That is possible, but I would not know about it. I
can assure you that my local union did not have. I will put that on the
record. .
Senator Kennedy. Can you tell us what salary you were getting
at this time, yearly ?
Mr. Motsinger. At what time ?
Senator Kennedy. At the time we are talking about, 1953.
Mr. Motsinger. When I went on the staff ?
Senator Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. Motsinger. When I went on, I went on about 3 weeks or 4 prior
to the convention where the salary was changed and as I recall, my
salary was $95 a week, plus expenses, and Avas raised to $115 a week,
plus expenses, I would say, within a 3-month period.
Senator Kennedy. How much were the expenses ?
Mr. Motsinger. Your expenses were
Senator Kennedy. Was it a flat amount ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20131
Mr. MoTSiNGER. It was a flat payment of $25 a week for an auto-
mobile. I believe it was 5 cents a mile for all over a designated num-
ber of miles that you would drive in 1 day.
Senator Kennedy. In other words, then, you were receiving a wage
at least back 6 or 7 years ago, a wage of about $150 salary and expenses
a week, is that correct ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, the salary and the car allowance would be
$140 exactly, those two, without any other expenses.
Senator Kennedy. Who appointed you to this job ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. The appointments came from Walter Reuther.
Senator Kennedy. Through an agent? Did Mr. Reuther himself
say he would give you the job ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, it was discussed at a convention, I believe, in
Atlantic City.
Senator Kennedy. Can you tell me what your job had been before
this?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Pardon ?
Senator Kennedy. What had your job been before you were ap-
pointed international representative ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. At that time I was bargaining committee and plant
chairman of Kaiser-Frazer Local 142.
Senator Kennedy. Who was paying you then ? Was it the union
or the company ?
Mr. Motsinger. For the sake of the record, so that this will be
clearly understood by the automobile workers all over the country,
all members that serve the UAW in the Kaiser-Frazer Local 142,
which was 80 full-time stewards that did not work, five members of
the bargaining committee, plus some other minor officers, were
all paid by Kaiser-Frazer.
Senator Kennedy. Can you tell me how much you were paid then ?
Mr. Motsinger. No, I couldn't, Senator Kennedy, because it was
never the same either year.
Senator I^nnedy. Just give us approximately for 1952 and 1953.
Mr. Motsinger. I couldn't tell you either one of the years what
I made.
Senator I^nnedy. You could not tell in a general way what you
made ? You have a lot of records there. Can you give us a general
idea of what you were being paid before you became a representative ?
Were you being paid $100 a week ?
Mr. Motsinger. I think it would run over $100 some weeks, under
and over. I do not remember the yearly return. The Internal Reve-
nue Department can give it to you exactly to the penny.
Senator Kennedy. Can you tell me if you were being paid
every week, or bimonthly ?
Mr. Motsinger. We were paid every week.
Senator Kennedy. How much was your check ? Do you remember
that?
Mr. Motsinger. Senator Kennedy, if you are not familiar with this,
please let me have 1 minute to explain it to you, that the contract of
Kaiser-Frazer called for the bargaining committee to be paid — the
contract specifically stated that the members of the bargaining com-
mittee shall be paid at their job classification rate at the time of their
election, that that is the amount they will get per hour.
36751— 60— pt. 58 15
20132 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
They shall be paid for all hours work by more than either 30 or 50
men in the entire plant per week. Now, if the maintenance section of
the huge Willow Run bomber plant had to work, or any department
in the plant or 50 people in the whole plant, worked 100 hours in a
week, the bargaining committee got 100 hours' pay at their rate.
Senator Ejennedt. Now I understand the point. The point is that
some weeks you were paid less than $100 and other weeks you were
paid more than $100.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. There was a great variance.
Senator Kennedy. The point I am interested in, however, is that
this job that you then took was a job of substantially greater prestige
and certainly greater power and influence; is that correct?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I would not say it was substantially greater pay. I
think it was probably a little above — I know it was above the salary
that you worked for as a local union president. I will put it that way.
I definitely know that it was more than $5,500 flat salary.
Senator Kennedy. Is it a promotion ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Pardon ?
Senator Kennedy. Is international representative a promotion from
your previous job?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, the international representative job from the
plant?
Senator Kennedy. Yes. Is that a promotion ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. You would have to check my records as to what I
earned to the dollar there, because all the time 1 was on the staff there
are men on the staff
Senator Kennedy. Wliy did you take the job if it was not more
pay and more prestige ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. For the same reason that a Senator would take a
job for $22,000 a year that might be making $75,000 or $100,000.
Senator Kennedy. And you might be making what, $7,500 ?
Mr. Motsinger. That he might be making $75,000 a year, but he
would take the job.
Senator Kennedy. You are not suggesting, are you, that you took
a pay cut when you took this job ?
Mr. Motsinger. I am not suggesting. I am trying to give you the
facts, but you are trying to twist them.
Senator Kennedy. It is quite clear that you received an increase
in your pay. You seemed to suggest by the example that you gave
us that this was an increase in prestige and stature. Is that correct?
and power and influence in the UAW? Is that correct?
Mr. Motsinger. A job on the international staff as the representa-
tive is one of the most coveted positions for a politician within the
ranks of the UAW.
Senator Kennedy. You have used the word "politician" twice. The
point, of course, of all of this, as Senator Church suggested, is that
you were moved up by the appointment of Mr. Gosser and Mr. Reuther
and Mr. Mazey — I do not know which one, but one of the three — they
appointed you to a job which increased your pay by quite a bit, in
my opinion, a bit, increased your pay and stature, and gave you one
of the most coveted jobs in the union. They were asking you to con-
tribute, and it was voluntary in the sense that though you may have
felt that you might lose your job if you did not contribute to it, they
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20133
were asking you to contribute to a fund, a political fund, the flower
fund, so-called, Avhich Avas used by the group in influence, the leader-
ship group, who asked you to contribute $5 a week to meet their ex-
penses of maintaining themselves in office politically.
It seems preferable to use that system than the system that Hoffa
and others used in taking union dues and using them'f or that purpose.
I do not understand your complaint. I think it is extraordinary busi-
ness, J:o bring in somebody, talking about something that can happen
6 or 7 years ago, a man who was promoted by the group in the union,
who took the job voluntarily, had one of the most coveted jobs in the
union and then was asked to contribute $5 a week to maintain the in-
fluence of this particular group within tlie union, who did not have to
pay it, he could have left the job if he wanted to, though there was
not a suggestion, as I understand it in the message directly that you
would lose your job if you did not pay it, though the implication may
well have been there.
Nevertheless, even assuming that the implication was there, I must
say I do not think that is an extraordinary price to pay to contribute
to the support of one of the most coveted jobs in the UAW.
Second, there is nothing in the PAC story that we have heard that is
illegal. It is obvious that the UAW has been active in political affairs
for a number of years. They believe that certain people in the Senate
of the United States, the House, Governors, and others, contribute to
the welfare of their membei-s.
We had a question about whether you had a voice in contributing
your $2 a week to Guy Gillette. In the investigation conducted by
Senator Gore, the Du Pont family contributed $250,000 in 1956, and
it IS my understanding that there were 900 of the family checked
agamst a list of contributors, and I am sure that the Du Pont family
was not informed, every one of them, Avhich candidates were receiving
this money, though I am sure they probably knew which party was
receiving the money. It is my understanding that one of these contrib-
utors was 4 years old.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I feel you are trying to make comparisons that are
far oyer my head as far as your philosophy is concerned about con-
tributions to anybody. I would put it this way : I have been and am,
against— even though I have had to participate in it— the expendi-
tures of the dues dollai-s of the UAW workingman for any candidate
that he does not designate himself. That is the only words that a
simple-mmded person from my State can state it to you so that it is
cle^r. Wliether m principle you agree with that, I cannot help that.
Senator Kennedy. Tell me first whether when you said you would
not contribute, were you told you would lose your job?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I will put it this way
Senator Kennedy. Put it the way it was.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No, I was not told I would lose mv job and I will
put you straight on that. '
Long before my appointment by Reuther to the staff, Mr. Reuther
knew that I was not a person that was approached and told that
there was something I had to do unless I was very sure that I would
lose my job^or something, because I just did not approve of it.
Senator Kennedy. You started to say something and then changed
that. You said Mr. Reuther would not have appointed you to the
20134 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
job, or, when he appointed you, knew that you were the kind of a
person who would contribute to the PAC, rather that you would not
contribute to the PAC unless you were in threat of losing your job.
How did Mr. Reuther know that? Did you tell Mr. Reuther that
you did not want to contribute to the PAC ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No; I say that Mr. Reuther, who has known of
me for quite a long time before I was ever appointed to the staff of
him, knows that I have been a man, my record shows in the UAW, of
independent thinking, and on many times have opposed the inter-
national and Mr. Reuther's philosophies.
I think that nobody, had they come out and made a strong issue
of telling me that I had to pay the PAC, we would have probably
had words. But inasmuch as"! did want the job as international
representative, it was a natural goal that anyone who works or goes
into the union to build a career in the labor movement, it is the only
place he can go when he has held every office in the UAW as far as
the local union is concerned.
I would put it this way : I paid it under protest, but never was there
any doubt in my mind that if I did not pay it, that I would remain on
that staff. , ^^^^ _. , .
Senator Kennedy. You say you protested. Who did you protest
to? <. • 1 •
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I say I paid it under protest from withm my own
self.
Senator Kennedy. Did you ever protest to anyone^
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I probably have many times.
Senator Kennedy. IVlioin did you protest to ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I don't recall.
Senator Kennedy. Do you recall any of the names ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Not specifically.
Senator Kennedy. Did you ever protest to Mr. Mazey ?
Mr. Motsinger. No.
Senator Kennedy. At the time you were discharged from your posi-
tion with the UAW, did you protest the matter to Mr. Mazey or Mr.
Reuther at that time ?
Mr Motsinger. After I left the international staff, I never was
granted an audience with Mr. Mazey, Mr. Reuther, Mr. Gosser,
except
^ Senator Kennedy. At the time you considered your resignation, or
whatever word you want to use, at the time, from the UAW, Mr.
lieuther was present, we have the transcript; did you raise the ques-
tion at that time ? , -IT 1 1 i- -x Tl
Mr Motsinger. I don't think we need to be childish about it. Uo
vou think I should have, or would that have been the normal action
of a person, of running there to the UAW and say, "Give me my money
back" ^
Senator Kennedy. I am trying to find out if you did protest, and
if so, to whom, that you did not want to pay and, if so, who did you
^^m Motsinger. For the sake of the record, I did not protest the
pavment to Walter Reuther, Emil INIazey, or Richard Gosser. If thai
is what vou want me to say, I will say that, because I told you I die
not I question whether any of the other 1,400,000 that are paying
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20135
dues just for political action have personally protested to either of the
three, either.
Senator Kennedy. Is it not a fact that Mr. Mazey informed you
of the names of the people that your PAC money had gone to ?
Mr. jNIotsinger. Pardon ?
Senator Kennedy. Did Mr. Mazey then inform you of the people
who had received, had shared, in your political contributions?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. By letter.
Mr. Kennedy. A list of names ?
Mr. Motsinger. No. As far as I know, I don't think I ever got any
list of names. I think I got the letter from the Senator, Senator Gil-
lette, but I know of no list. I do not recall any list of names that ever
was furnished anyone.
Senator Kennedy. Who PAC contributed to ?
ilr. Motsinger. I don't recall that. I would think it would be
pretty generally understood who they contributed to.
Senator Kennedy. Thank you.
Senator Goldwater. I think we are getting away from the point
here. I do not think that anybody can protest the existence of a so-
called flower fund or political fund if the contributions are made
voluntarily.
Historically, through the years, we have attempted by State laws
and Federal laws to keep people from being forced to make political
contributions to the person to whom they are responsible for their
job. However, if that person wants to voluntarily send money, that is
a dift'erent thing, and I do not think we can protest the voluntary
approach.
I think what Senator Curtis is attempting to bring out here is the
fact that the flower funds are not voluntary but compulsory.
Senator Kennedy talked about the Du Ponts' rather sizable dona-
tion. I suggest that that is voluntary. I remember one that John L.
Lewis made of about $400,000. I am convinced that that was voluntary.
Senator Curtis. It was not John L. Lewis' personal money.
Senator Goldwater. We will not argue that point. It was volun-
tary.
I think we ought to keep this in the context in which we are trying
to investigate. Senator Kennedy might not be satisfied with the
rapidity with which this is developing, but I would suggest that we
keep in mind that the only complaint that has ever been made about
the flower fund is that it is a compulsory one, and that is what Senator
Curtis is attempting to show by the evidence he is bringing before
this committee.
Mr. Motsinger. May I say this. Senator Goldwater, that in refer-
ence to the Du Ponts and how they give, I think it should be looked at
from the proper perspective of the giver and his position. I do not
know if the Du Ponts or anyone else make contributions to any party,
what they have in mind when they do it. I might have suspicions,
but I do not know. But let's talk abojiit the duress they are under.
If it would be called voluntary, I would like to put it this way: If
you are on an appointive job and not elective, where you can be sent
back to your plant the next day for refusal or for being a noncon-
formist, there is a difference in refusing as a man who is on an ap-
pointive job of making a voluntary contribution, and a free citizen.
20136 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
such as the Du Fonts or anyone else, who is under no obligations and
stands no chance of the loss of their livelihood should they refuse. I
want that for the record. That is the only way I can express myself.
Senator Goldwater. I agree with you 100 percent. I think that is
the whole purpose of this.
When we first heard of these flower funds, we asked Mr. Reuther
and Mr. Reuther stated that tliey were \ oluntary. AVe had reason to
believe then and reason to believe since that they are not voluntary.
If we are proven wrong, of course we will admit that. But I think
that is what the whole purpose of this evidence is, to try and develop
whether or not they are compulsory or voluntary. If they are com-
pulsory, then I think it is wrong ; if they are voluntary, there is nothing
wrong with them.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Motsinger, you were assigned some place be-
sides the Detroit area as an international representative, were you ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What was the next location you served ?
Mr. Motsinger. From Detroit I was assigned to Elyria, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. About how long were you there ? Just an estimate.
Mr. Motsinger. Four or five months.
Senator Curtis. What were your duties there ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I was assigned over there on an organiza-
tional drive to organize — well, to disorganize and then reorganize the
General Industries plant in Elyria, Ohio, which was under contract
and had been organized for many years bv the MESA.
Senator Curtis. What is the MESA?
Mr. Motsinger. I believe they call it the Mechanics Educational
Society of America, but I am not positive, because I don't recall seeing
it in print.
Senator Curtis. What plant was that ?
Mr. Motsinger. That is the General Industries plant in Elyria,
Ohio.
Senator Curtis. And you spent most of your time in Elyria on that
assignment ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes ; 4 or 5 months.
Senator Curtis. Were there any other international representatives
there?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, yes ; there were several in and out. One was
there, a man named Russell White.
Senator Curtis. Is he an international representative ?
Mr. Motsinger. Is he now ?
Senator Curtis. Was he then ?
Mr. Motsinger. He was then ; yes.
Senator Curtis. What was your assignment with respect to Mr.
IVhite?
Mr. Motsinger. I was assigned to work under him on the organ-
ization of this plant. General Industries.
Senator Curtis. Did you organize the plant ?
Mr. Motsinger. No.
Senator Curtis. Would you briefly tell us what happened ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I can only say what I know — what happened.
The NLRB office in Cleveland eventually threw out their petition.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20137
Senator Curtis. The UAW petition ?
Mr, MoTSiNGER. For an election in that plant, to take it away from
this other union, on the basis that they did not have enouo;h signa-
tures in the plant, legal signatures, to come up to the required amount
to petition for an election.
Senator Curtis. Then where were you assigned after this place ?
Mr. ]\IoTSiNGER. I was assigned next to the Hercules Motor drive in
Canton, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. Do you recall about how long you were there ?
Mr. MoTSixGER. I think I went there in November. I am not posi-
tive of that, but it was in the fall of 1953. I think it was in November,
the month. And I remained there until August or September of the
following year.
Senator Curtis. Then where were you assigned ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, I was transferred from there to New York
City. I did not remain there but a couple of weeks.
Senator Curtis. Were you still under Mr. Gosser when you were
sent to New York City ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What were you supposed to do in New York
City?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, I did not know my duties, except that I
had heard from other representatives that we were going to be sent
down there to work in political action.
Senator Curtis. Did you object to that ?
Mr. IMoTSiNGER. I did not object at the time where I was being
assigned, because I had no place else to go. I objected when my
personal assignment in New York City, after waiting for several days
without an assignment, because my leader, the man I was accepting
my orders from, was
Senator Curtis. Wlio was that leader ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Paul Miley — was indisposed.
I was told by him and another man out of Detroit, who was another
administrative assistant of Mr. Gosser's
Senator Curtis. What was his name ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Brother Joseph Mooney.
Senator Curtis. Is Mr. Mooney here in the hearing room now ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. He was. I am sure he was.
Here he is, sir [indicating].
That my work would be for the time being to work on a sound truck
that tliey were going to operate in the election. This was in Sep-
tember, and I was to work in PAC in the election there coming up.
Senator Curtis. On a sound truck ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes. That was the first description of the duties
that Mr. Miley and a little gentleman — perhaps Mr. Mooney could
furnish his name or somebody here. He worked in George Carrigan's
office. I don't recall his name. He was, I think, more or less in charge
of political action in Carrigan's area there.
I made statements to the effect that I did not hire out as an inter-
national representative to work in political action, and I did not
intend to or did not care to.
Senator Curtis. Your salary at this time was the salary of an
international representative, was it not?
20138 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoTsiNGER. There was no change in my salary.
Senator Curtis. And that salary comes from dues or a part of the
dues paid by the members of the UAW, does it not ?
Did it not?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, I was on Dick Gosser's staff as an interna-
tional representative and I would presume all of our money come from
the UAW.
Senator Curtis. To your knowledge, in the union as president of the
local, you know that the money that the international gets to run on
and pay their international representatives come from the dues of the
members, is that not true ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
(At this point. Senator Kennedy withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. You said you protested that. Did you protest it to
Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No, I did not protest it immediately to Mr. Gosser
then, that particular day, but I did within, I think it was 2 or 3 days.
Senator Curtis. How did you protest?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I sent a telegram to Mr. Gosser requesting an inter-
view with him which I had never had, except in summer camps or
occasions such as that, that I requested an interview with him regard-
ing a personal matter, and it amounted to being sent down there or
placed in that kind of work, and at the same time I had not been
assigned anything else by the man that I was sent down in there with
for the reasons I stated before, and I wanted to thrash it out with
Mr. Gosser, what my duties were going to be.
Senator Curtis. Then what happened ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, there was quite a commotion about it, and it
was decided that I would be sent to Philadelphia.
(At this point. Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Mr. MoTSiNGER. It was decided that I would be sent to Philadelphia,
to work back with a man that I had worked with and whom I had had
my trouble with in the Elyria, Ohio, item a year or so prior to that.
Senator Curtis. This was Mr. White ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Before we leave the New York City, your com-
plaint there was that you, as an international representative, were not
assigned to union duties in the ordinary sense, but were assigned to
political action duties and some connection with a sound truck, is that
correct ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes. The sound truck was mentioned. I would be
working on the sound truck during the campaign, and at that time the
New York offices were going out in political action, I believe, in sup-
port of young Roosevelt, who was running at that time, and I think
he was the leading candidate against Javits for the Attorney General
of the State of New York.
(At this point, Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt. This is a very important point, if it is as I under-
stand. Do I understand that, as an international representative in
the New York area, your assignment was to be engaging in political
activities in New York State rather than taking care of the problems
that the union members might have in their bargaining relationships
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20139
with their employers, and you were protesting against that because
you did not think that was a proper function for you to be engaged
in as an international representative? Is that the picture you are
telling us now ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, not exactly. Senator. My duties down there
were not bargaining or anything in relation with management at all
at any time after I was placed on Mr. Gosser's staff. That was only
when I went on the international staff when I was troubleshooter
and worked with several representatives in Detroit on contracts there.
I was assigned on Gosser's staff in the competitive shops, which is
primarily the organization of the plants.
Senator Mundt. Let me rephrase my question.
Mr. Motsinger. Let me finish and I think I will get it. But that
was not anything unusual for a representative to be assigned to politi-
cal action inasmuch as there are many representatives all over the
UAW who work solely on political action.
Senator Mundt. If that is true, is that not taking dues-paying
money from union members, contrary to the impression I got from
your reply to Senator Church's question. If that is true, it would
seem to me that that is taking dues-paying members' money, that
they have to pay under compulsion, and instead of organizing new
plants or bringing new members into the union or getting better
wages, better conditions, and so forth, it would seem that that would
be outright taxation without representation, as I see it, to use it for
political purposes.
Mr, Motsinger. I can only state this, as to the interpretations of
the international representatives working in political action it would
have to be made by someone other than me.
Senator Mundt. I am not questioning the legality of it. It might
not run contrary to the corrupt practices law, but it seems to me there
is something unethical in this great Eepublic of ours, to tell a man
that, in order to have a job and earn a living for his family, he has
to pay dues, part of which are used, according to your testimony, if
I get it right, and I want to be sure I understand it correctly, part of
which is to be used to play politics, partisan politics, instead of en-
gaged in helping the workers with their problems. Is that what
you were asked to do and wrote a telegram to Mr. Gosser protesting
against ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, I sent Gosser a telegram and requested an
interview with him.
Senator Mundt. You say there is nothing unusual about it ?
Mr. Motsinger. I say there is nothing miusual about the number of
representatives on the staff of the UAW and, I might add, any other
union that is assigned to political action, because they are all over the
UAW
Senator Mundt. You are talking now about political action not
within the union. That is one thing, to promote the fellow for stay-
ing in. You are talking about political action dealing with Gover-
nors, Senators, Congressmen, judges, whoever they want to elect.
Mr. Motsinger. I don't think anyone ever refers to political action
within a union as to be defined as the political action of the officers
within that union.
20140 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Political action has been replaced by COPE now and is always used
in the term of describing the election of officers for all public offices
from constable to tlie President of the United States. That is the
term that is implied when you say Pi\.C work in the UAW. The
politics of electing Keuther, Mazey, or any officers, is never referred
to, as I ever heard in my life, to be associated with the political action
arm of the union itself.
Senator Mundt. In that part, is the election of officers or new officers
paid for from the flower fund, to the best of your knowledge, but the
other is paid for from dues fund ? Your salary came out of the dues
paying funds, is that not it ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is right.
Senator Mundt, If that is not taxation without representation, it
seems to be it will fit the pattern until a new definition comes along.
The Chairman. Let the Chair inquire. I was hoping we might get
through with this witness tonight. Do you have extended further
examination ?
Senator Curtis. Well, some more. I will move as rapidly as I
can.
The Chairman. There is the signal for a vote, apparently.
The committee will stand in recess until 9 :30 in the moming.
We will resmue our hearings in this room then.
(Members of the committee present at the time of recess: Senators
McClellan, Church, Ervin, Curtis, Mundt, and Goldwater.)
(\Vliereupon, at 7:38 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at
9 :30 a.m., Friday, August 21, 1959.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGE3IENT FIELD
FRIDAY, AUGUST 21, 1959
U.S. Senate,
Select Committee on Improper Activities
IN the Labor or Management Field,
Washington, D.O.
The select committee met at 9 :30 a.m., pursuant to Senate Resolu-
tion 44, agreed to Februai-y 2, 1959, in room 3302, Senate Office Build-
ing, Senator Jolin L. McClellan (chairman of the select committee)
presiding.
Present : Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas ; Senator
Karl E. Mimdt, Republican, South Dakota; Senator John F. Ken-
nedy, Democrat, Massachusetts; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Demo-
crat, North Carolina; Senator Frank Church, Democrat, Idaho; Sen-
ator Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona; Senator Carl T, Curtis,
Republican, Nebraska.
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; Jerome S. Adler-
man, assistant chief counsel ; P. Kenneth O'Domiell, assistant counsel ;
Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel ; Robert E. Manuel, assistant coun-
sel; Walter J. Sheridan, investigator; Carmine S. Bellino, consulting
ac<iountant; Susan S. Becker, acting chief clerk.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
(The members of the committee present at reconvening of the ses-
sion were : Senators McClellan, Curtis, and Mundt.)
The Chairman. Mr, Motsinger, come forward, please.
TESTIMONY OF JESS F. MOTSINGER— Resumed
The Chairman. The Chair will annomice his intention to recess at
11 :30. Lefs make all the progress we can.
All right. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Motsinger, we closed your questioning yester-
day with matters concerning your payment to a political fund in a
checkoff, and also your testimony concerning international represen-
tatives who are paid from union dues giving of their time in political
matters.
As a unionman, do you regard these practices as appropriate?
Mr. Motsinger. No ; I do not.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Motsinger, you were discharged as an inter-
national representative ; were you not ?
Mr. Motsinger. I think that is the term they applied.
20141
20142 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. This was brought to a head following a fight with
Mr. White ; is that correct ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
Senator Curtis. I am not saying that that is the reason, but I say
it followed after that ; is that correct ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, I stated my reasons before on many occasions,
and I will restate them again. My dismissal from the staff was a
direct result of my attempts to expose what I thought was corruption
at the international level, waste of dues money, and such things as that,
and my failure to conform to the policies that were handed down by
the Reuther administration.
(At this point. Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Wliat incidents in the waste of money were you
referring to ? Will you tell about those ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, the waste of money is a field that you could
just about micover in those days anywhere, I suppose you still can,
because of the representatives, of their assigiiments, of their failure to
take serious the job that they were being paid to do on various drives.
Senator Curtis. Do you know of any instances where you can justly
be critical of the way they handled a drive and spent money for it ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Wliat plant are you referring to ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. The first drive that I was assigned on in Ohio, the
General Industries plant.
Senator Curtis. Wliat happened there that you objected to ?
Mr. Motsinger. We were sent in there to organize the General
Industries plant, to take it away from another union. I was placed
mider the supervision of Mr. Russell White.
Senator Curtis. What happened ?
Mr. Motsinger. It was explained to me that the first man in these
towns on an organizational drive, the procedure of the UAW was that
the first man in was the leader of the drive, would be the last to leave,
and the last man in would be first man out on these drives. That was
the procedure that was explained.
I don't know how long the drive had been opened in Elyria, but they
didn't have too many cards signed from in the j)lant of people want-
ing to belong to the UAW, they were satisfied with their union in the
plant. They didn't have enough cards. It developed very soon after
we were there that they were not going to capture that. But it didn't
make any difference to the leader of the drive.
I had statements made to me by international representatives who
had that as their hometown, who would make statements to me that he
did everything he could do to try to get them to call off the drive and
wasting the money in that town on this plant. That was discussed
with White on several occasions.
I tried to, on my reports, indicate that it was going to be a failure,
but I was told by Mr. "Wliite to quit sending in any type of report like
that to Detroit, and I was warned by Mr. White that that was their
business. If they wanted to pay for us to stay over there, it was
their business. I shouldn't be saving that, because I might be sent
too far from Detroit to go home when we had a chance.
He pointed out to me that I was new on the staff' and said, "You
can drive home from here, and as long as you are here you can get
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20143
home in 5 or 6 hours. You keep telling them what you are telling
them, and you will wind up in Colorado where you will never get
home." He said, "I want to stay here myself." He was remodeling
or rebuilding a cottage that he bought in Michigan.
Senator Curtis. \Vlien you objected to what you felt was a waste of
the union money and manpower on an organization drive where an-
other union already existed, you were called down for not making
your reports conform to the rest of them ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes ; that was the first time I was called down in
Elyria. I was called down there later, too.
Senator Curtis. Were you ever directed or called down on the way
your reports were written in regard to any other matter ?
Mr. MoTSTNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Tell us about that.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Once in Philadelphia we were on the drive of a
multiple-plant drive down there, there were several little plants they
were trying to get. They had a big one practically captured. I was
sent down there. Some of the plants that we were working on, it was
evident that we weren't going to get them unless something could be
done, and I would put on my report to indicate such, or a note at-
tached to my report. But I would also inform Mr. White, who I had
been assigned with, again, after my removal from New York, that
I just couldn't stand the idea of having to falsify a report and not let
the Detroit office, as far as I was concerned, know the true facts per-
taining to any plant that we were out and paid to be organized.
The Chairman. In what way were you falsifying a report? I did
not quite understand you.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I was told to make my reports the same as his and
the other representatives'.
The Chairman. The report on what ?
]\Ir. MoTSiNGER. Well, we sent in our sheets every week, of our ac-
tivities, and those sheets were made to show the number of cards that
people — that you had made house calls and had gone out and signed
up that week, that it was the pledge to vote for the UAW or come into
theUAW.
The Chairman. What was that, an organizing campaign ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, sir. That was part of your weekly records to
send in.
The Chairman. What I am trying to get at is, what in the world
is wrong with it, to go out and try to get people to join ? Did they ask
you to falsify your report on whether you had seen people to join
or not, and the number ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Senator McClellan, I am trying to get to that
in this way : that their reports would often show of their duties
for the past week had been assigned to, say, Reynolds Metals Co. or-
ganizing, and so many cards was signed that week, or turned in — they
was signed, not turned in, because they were held in the local office.
I knew that the people that were sending in those reports weren't any-
where near that factory at that time.
The Chairman. What do you mean, just making false reports to
their own union as to their work ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is right. And in addition to that, I was
handed plants in that area where a survey had been made by Gosser's
20144 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
office, to ascertain the number of workers in individual plants around
there that needed organizing, that was to be used by Gosser, in
preventing any cut in his staff due to the austerity program that was
being rumored at the international level.
( At this point Senator Church entered the hearing room. )
The Chairman. The point is, they were making false reports in
order to keep some folks at work that were not needed, is that it?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is right.
In that particular instance, yes, because the records were given to
me of these plants and this prior survey, and the records would show,
which were handed me to go collect on some of the plants to see how
they were coming along, the records showed the number of 900 or 1,000
workers in a plant that needed organizing, such as Superior Tubing.
The Chairman. How long ago did that happen ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Five years. Four years. Five years ago.
The Chairman. The effect of your statement is that 5 years ago
they asked you to make false reports to conform to other reports they
were making showing that you international representatives were
doing more work than you were actually doing. Is that it?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I suppose it could be construed to mean that, but 1
think the main purpose of it .
The Chairman. I am trying to get the point of this.
(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
Mr MoTSiNGER. Yes, that is what it amounts to.
The Chairman. That is what I am getting at. That is the crux
of what you are testifying to ?
Mr. MoTSixGER. Yes.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed.
Senator Curtis. You started to tell about a tubing company. \V hat
company did you just refer to ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Superior Tubing Co.
I was given reports that showed that there were 950 or 1,000 em-
ployees in that plant and it needed organization. Those sur\^ys had
been made prior to my coming to Philadelphia by members of Gosser s
staff. When I would go there, I drove directly up to the plant got
out and went up and talked to people, plant guards and all of them.
Incidentally, their reports showed it was unorganized. I hnd when
I o-et there that there was approximately 600 people and that the
plant had been organized and under organization for several years,
and that they were perfectly satisfied, happy, and no union attempts,
as far as they knew, had even come in.
Senator Curtis. Were there any other similar incidents ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I was sent over to check the Heckel Body Co. out-
side of Philadelphia, I believe it is across the line, where they had
turned in the number of people there that were potential union mem-
bers, if we could get them, and it was unorganized. The sheet that
I had showed the number of three, four, or five hundred, some enormous
figure.
Senator Curtis. Of employees?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Emplovees and nonunion.
Senator Curtis. What 'did von find out when you got over there?
Mr. Motsinger. When I got there, I found out that the maximum
number of employees they ever had at this place was TO or 80 people
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20145
and it had been organized for several years by local 7 — I couldn't
give you the number that far back. It was AFL. When I would go
back in and start saying, "Look, these reports and things that are
made were apparently made from a bar stool somewhere and not from
the geographical locations of the places, and I am so going to indicate
to the Detroit office," I was told that I better not.
Senator Curtis. Who told you that ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Mr. White.
I was also told by Mr. White that I was kind of referred to as a
fool
The Chairman. Told you what ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I believe you told me to delete swearing— that I
was referred to as a damn fool, and that I should know why the re-
ports showed that, that inasmuch as Mazey was trying to cut the or-
ganizational staff, and that these reports had been made to support
Gosser's contention that there would be no cuts in his staff as long as
the UAW was solvent, that the cuts could go on somebody else's staff.
I didn't know of those things until I was told that by White.
My position on that incident was the same as it had been since I
had been on the staff. "Mr. White, I will make my reports. I keep
my nose clean every way in the world. You do as you please."
Then I was told, "Well, your reports had better conform from
here on."
So I said, "Well, I think I shall call the Detroit office."
He told me it wouldn't do me any good.
The Chairman. Were you fired on that account?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Sir, the way you are putting it, was I fired right
there, then, immediately ?
The Chairman. No;' I didn't say right there, then. But were you
fired on that account ?
What I am trying to get to— we are going to kill a lot of time getting
down to one little point somewhere. Can't we get down to it ?
^ Mr. MoTsiNGER. I was fired for having a fight with Russell White,
]ust hmi and I m a room. I was fired for having a fight with Russell
White because of the job tliat he had did on me in Detroit, and of the
argument between the two of us. I wasn't fired there. I was sent a
telegram by a man in this room to return to Detroit for an assignment,
a reassignment, on the staff, and ordered to fly in.
Wlien I came to Detroit, I was forewarned in the lobby that their
hatchetmen had "done a job on you tliis time, Motsinger; you got to
go.]' The telegi-am had been sent to me that I was to come in for re-
assignment and was to fly in. I can't fly, because I am a victim of
angina pectoris, a heart disease.
Senator Curtis. Who was that man ?
Mr. Motsinger. That man was Joseph Mooney, administrative as-
sistant to Richard Gosser, one of the many.
Senator jMundt. Will the Senator yield ?
I would like to reconstruct and see if I understand the burden of
your testimony. You correct me if I am wrong. I want to get this
straight.
In answer to the chairman's question of what is wrong with all this,
if I understand it I think that there is something wrong, and I may be
inaccurate in my understanding. But, as I reconstruct what you have
20146 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
been saying in the last half hour, you were known as a dissenter or
a lone wolf, or something, as far as being an international representa-
tive was concerned, because you started out by protesting the political
activity you had been asked to engage in up in New York, and then
you protested the fact that you were asked to make fictitious reports,
or that you confirm fictitious reports made by someone else.
Then you objected to anybody suggesting to you that you pad your
expense accounts, "You keep your expense accounts and I will keep
mine."
Are those the three sources of irritation that you have mentioned
so far which led up to what I understand ultimately was a fight with
Mr. Wliite? , -, , ^ ,
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, that was the incident that provoked the hght
down there ; yes. But I would like to go further. Maybe you will
understand this
Senator Mundt. I want to find out now, in answer to the chairman s
question, what was wrong. I think you have to look at this whole
framework of activity in the area of compulsory unionism.
I would say that 'if you were working in an area in the union
where membership is purely voluntary, and nothing particularly
wrong for an Odd Fellows group or somebody to hire a lot of extra
people and load up the staff, because the members pay it, and they
can join a lodge or keep out, but if this is a situation where a man
has to belong to a union to earn a living for his family, that is some-
thing quite different. I think you have to look at the ethics and
morality of this in tenns of the framework of the union shop and
closed shop, where a man has to belong to the union.
(At this point Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Senator Mundt. To me it would be very obviously wrong if, under
a compulsory situation, an international representative could pad his
staff by having a lot of extra payrollers around to engage in political
activity under the guise that they were doing jobs for the union men,
and then in order to justify that ask them to make a lot of fictitious
reports so that he could have 120 men instead of 50 men, or so that
he could have 250 men instead of 150 men. That would be wrong be-
cause it would be misuse, and a clearcut misuse, of the dues of the
union members, as in my opinion it is a clear-cut misuse of dues of
union members in a compulsory union setup to employ a lot of people
to go out and engage in the election of a judge or an attorney general,
or a Governor, or any other candidate for office, because that is not
the reason why they are presumably forced to pay dues to belong to a
union. . j i j. -
Is it your testimony that this is what was happening, and that is
what you were objecting to, or do I misunderstand your testimony ?
Mr. Motsinger." It is hard to say yes or no to a statement as lengthy
as yours is there, because I can't remember as I go along what all you
said. But I think you hit the nail on the head there in what I am
trying to say.
Senator Mundt. If I missed the nail any place along the line, you
correct me. I am trying to get straightened out at one place m the
record, so that we know whether this is an improper activity which
you are alleging. Perhaps it will be brought out in other testimony.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20147
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Definitely that is an improper activity of what I
think should be the activities of international representatives on the
staff.
Senator Mundt. As an international representative, you were pro-
testing- against it ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. That is right.
Senator Mundt. That got you in bad with your superiors and asso-
ciates, one of whom was White ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is right, White.
Senator Mundt. The irritation was definitely opened and got more
vigorous and finally you wound up, as I understand it, in a fist fight
between you and "Wliite ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is right.
Senator Mundt. Out of that came the charges against you in the
international union for dismissal?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That was just a simple formality.
As I said, there was a lot of activity in the office that day, and the
representatives in the Philadelphia area who knew me come to me and
shook my hand and told me that they didn't see how I had tolerated
it as long as I had. I had had the office girls prior to that ask me
why did I have to take the abuse that I was taking from the inter-
national and Mr. White. I had told them that Kaiser-Frazer Corp.
had gone out of business, that I was 45 years old, I had no job and
no plant to go back to, such as all of the representatives on the staff
had, and that I was forced.
These representatives tried to advise me of what to do. I wanted
to go immediately and call Detroit, right immediately after the fight,
and tell them what it was all about. Maybe I listened to bad advice,
but they told me, they said, "No, let him do it." But as a result, I
was brought back to Detroit.
Senator Mundt. I think while I was listening to things that you
objected to, partisan politics and the padding of the payrolls, the
changing of the expense accounts, you also objected inwardly, you said,
to the contributions you had to make to the flower fund. You
objected to that?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Mundt. We had some discussions yesterday, and I want
the record to show, Mr. Motsinger, my own attitude toward the
flower fund.
As long as it is voluntary, purely voluntary, I see nothing improper
about it. But if we are going to establish acceptance in this great
United States of ours of the concept that a man who has a job and
who appoints another man to a job has a right to surtax the other
fellow to support him in his office, I think it is wrong. I think it is
exactly the kind of tiling that I can remember at least a couple of
my old colleagues in the House of Representatives have gone to the
Federal peniteniaiy for. They said to the staff' members, "You
ought to kind of kick in to the campaign expenses of the boss. We
are all on the same team." So they got elected together. I think tliat
thing is pretty reprehensible, to tell a fellow with a secondary job,
"You have to kick in to the top job to go along with the team," if
it is compulsory. If the flower fund is compulsory, I think it is
36751 — 60— pt. 58 16
20148 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
reprehensible. If it is voluntary, purely voluntary, there is nothing
wrong with it in associations or any other political activity.
You protested, as I understand it, then, Mr. Motsinger, the faxjt
that, in your opinion, there was coercion and duress on the flower fund
and it was not purely voluntary. Am I correct in that?
Mr. Motsinger. I believe my statement yesterday is very clear on
that, that I did not protest to my superiors.
Senator Mundt. I know that. You protested in your mind, you
resented it.
Mr. Motsinger. I definitely did, and if all the people on the UAW
staff who protested to me were in this room, you would get some
statements that would make mine look puny by comparison, as to the
size of their donations and objections.
Senator Mundt. In other words, you think it was objected to by
other people who contributed to the flower fund besides yourself?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. I don't think you will have to leave the
room to find that type of testimony of people.
The Chairman. 'Point him out? Who will testify to that?
Mr. Motsinger. The witnesses who will probably succeed me on the
stand, under subpena.
Senator Kennedy. It seems to me there is a difference between the
Congressman getting a kickback from employees and the example we
have here. If you accept all the facts as you stated them, which I
would not accept — in my opinion it is not the way I would determine
his testimony — assuming that is so, you are still not talking about
Federal funds and a breach of the law.
So far, I have not heard it in Mr. Motsinger's case, first, because he
did not protest, and secondly, because he was free to leave his job, and
it did not involve in any way Federal funds. I am nto aware of any-
thing that could result in a Federal penitentiary in that case or any
breach of the law.
Perhaps you can explain that, Senator.
Senator Mundt. I would be happy to.
Let me say first of all I did not contend it was a breach of the law.
I said I thought it was a highly un-American concept, that anybody
who has a little control over another fellow's job, that he can threaten
he will deprive him of his livelihood, and say, "Look, chum, you have
to kick in on my bank account or flower fund to hold that job."
Senator Kennedy. There was no threat. He stated he did not
protest.
Senator Mundt. If you protest, you would lose your job.
I think he stated, and he can correct me if I am wrong, that he was
under the impression that if he had protested he would not long re-
main an international representative.
Am I right about that or wrong ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes. I have men that — I will bring out in testi-
mony here — would have told me — well, I will put it this way : I was
warned by many representatives that I would be leaving the staff if I
maintained my line of resistance to the demands, both written and un-
written, from Solidarity House, that I would be leaving the staff.
Senator Mundt. May I say to the Senator from Massaclnisetts that
I am not contending this is against the law. I am contending that it
is highly improper. I am contending that except that the law relates
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20149
to Federal money, and, consequently, a couple of Congressmen go to jail
for doing this thing, that in principle and concept it is identical,
because it is a kickback to your boss to help your boss stay in office,
reduced to the simplest terms, and I would like to know if the Senator
from Massachusetts thinks that is good American practice or not.
Senator Kennedy You just stated the word "demands." Were you
ever told by Mr. Gosser, Mr. Mazey or anyone else in the UAW that
if you did not contribute to the flower fund you would lose your job?
Were you ever told that ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No, but I believe the record will show that I was
told by Mv. Madrzykowski
Senator MuNDT. Who is he?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. One of Mr. Gosser's numerous administrative as-
sistants.
I believe the record will show that I told you in my indoctrination
lecture or speech upon coming on to his staff that I was never to be
reminded again about payment of the flower fund.
^ Senator Kennedy. Did you protest it at that time when you were
given this job, which you state was one of the most desirable in the
UAW?
Did you state at that time to this gentleman that you did not want
to take the job under those conditions ?
Mr. Motsinger. Mr. Kennedy, I did not say that, and I am asking
you, since you are asking me that type of a question, if you were a
man going on the international staff to a job, and knew what that was
for, would you have protested it ?
Senator Kennedy. I will be glad to answer your question.
If I received a job that was one, as you state, of the best jobs you
could get, at a substantial increase in pay
Mr. Motsinger. I didn't say a substantial increase in pay. You
said that.
Senator Kennedy. May I finish ?
You stated it was one of the best jobs in the UAW ?
Mr. Motsinger. Most coveted.
Senator Kjennedy. Well, let me answer your question.
One of the most coveted jobs in the UAW, and if you were told
during your indoctrination that all international representatives con-
tributed to the flower fund and were explained the use to which the
flower fund was put, I would then say, "I would not take the job under
those conditions," or if I took the job, would not expect to get a free
ride on it. Once the conditions were explained to me clearly at the
beginning and I accepted the job, I made that decision. You did not
have to take that job under those conditions.
The point I am making, I will say to Senator Mundt, is that the
gentleman was informed about it when he took the job, that it was a
voluntary action on his ]^art, that the job represented a substantial
increase in salai*y and stature.
Why he was discharged is a separate matter. It involved a fight
with Mr. White. In his whole testimony before the UAW at the
time he was discharged, and that record was all here, this matter of
the flower fund or your contribution to the PAC never did come up.
What came up is whether you were going to be sent to Allentown, or
whether the first in was the last out, or whether you had punched
20150 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. White. This is another matter involving your relations with Mr.
Wliite, whom I do not know. But I do not want the two to be linked.
Senator Mundt. You answered Mr. Motsinger's question, but you
did not answer mine.
I say do you consider this to be a proper practice, putting your own
definition on the terms under which Mr. Motsinger agreed to get the
job ? Do you consider that a proper practice ?
I do not.
Senator Ervin. Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the witness one ques-
tion.
The Chairman. Wait a moment.
Senator Mundt. I am in the middle of asking a question. What
happened to it ?
Senator Kennedy. I would be delighted to give you my view. _ I
have already stated the case, that Mr. Motsinger was given this job
under the conditions that he described it. It seems to me that he was
given this job, and I do not see anything wrong with the UAW asking
him to contribute to a political fund which would be used by the leader-
ship group in the UAW.
What I would consider wrong would be if the members, the working
people in the plant, who were not given these kinds of jobs, were
required to contribute as a condition of maintaining their union mem-
bership dues to the flower fund. I would consider that highly wrong
and improper. No. 1.
No. 2, I would consider it — I would certainly consider the grounds
of impropriety if Mr. Motsinger could give us any evidence that he
ever protested this fund, and if when he did protest it he was threat-
ened with discharge.
In a case like that, I would then consider the question of impro-
priety was raised.
But if a man was given an excellent job and is told at the time that
he will be asked to contribute voluntarily — quote, unquote; if you
want to put it in quotes, fine — and he then takes it, it seems to me that
he has then committed himself to a course of action.
I have answered the Senator's question. I have given the answer
that I am going to give to the Senator. If he wants to address another
question, he can ask another question; but I have given the answer
I am going to give to that question.
Mr. Motsinger. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Just one moment.
Senator Curtis was examining the witness. I assume he yielded to
Seantor Mundt, and from that this ensued, as I recall it.
Gentlemen, if we are going to have this, I suggest that you ask the
Senator who has the floor to yield. If he yields, then we will keep
this in some order.
Senator Mundt. I think, Mr. Chairman, I did ask Senator Curtis
to yield.
The Chairman. I think he yielded to you.
Now who wants to be recognized ?
Senator Curtis, have you any further questions ?
Senator Curtis. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I do not want to cut my col-
leagues off, I realize there is a time element.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20151
The Chairman. Some of your colleagues over here want to ask a
question. Do you yield ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
The Chairman. We will keep it that way and move along a little
better.
Senator Ervin. Mr. Motsinger, are you still a member of the UAW?
Mr. Motsinger. I was when I left home.
Senator ER\aN. When was that ?
Mr. Motsinger. Last week.
Senator Ervin. You have not received any notice to the contrary
since you came ?
JVIr. Motsinger. They don't know where I am. But I haven't. I
will answer that that way.
Senator Ervin. Are you now the president of your local ?
Mr. Motsinger. I am not active in any part of the UAW in any
capacity.
Senator Ervin. Were you elected president of your local after you
ceased to act as an international representative ?
Mr. Motsinger. No, sir. My local, as I told you, was out of exist-
ence when I came off the staff.
Senator Ervin. That is all.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. In reference to these practices that you disagreed
with, and these organizing efforts, were there promises made to work-
ers in plants where organizational activity was going on or in connec-
tion with it that you disagreed with ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. But may I say something to the Chair?
I am not familiar with these types of proceedings, and if I am
wrong, you straighten me out. But on passing over or skipping from
one phase of this to another, I would like to point out that m support
of my testimony here pertaining to this flower fund, since it is becom-
ing an issue, that my testimony of what happens to people who refuse
to pay the flower fund will be brought out here, if I am given the
opportunity in Cleveland, Ohio. I will bring out what happens to one
individual I know who got behind with his flower fund.
(At this point Senator Mundt withdrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. I do not think the Chair has restrained you from
answering any questions or making any comments.
Mr. Motsinger. That is true.
The Chairman. I am trying just to keep orderly procedure here,
and I think I am going to be able to do that. Any comment you wish
to make at this point, you can make, and then we will go on.
As to what you are going to present to the committee, I do not
understand that you are the prosecuting witness. Are you? Are
you taking that attitude?
Mr. Motsinger. No.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis is the one who is presenting this to
the committee. Let's keep it in proper perspective.
Mr. Motsinger. The only thing I meant was my testimony as to
what would happen to the man who refuses to pay the flower fund.
Certainly, in supporting my own statement, I would want evidence
of what I have seen happen to people who didn't pay it.
20152 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. ^Y}mt you want and what you do not want is not
necessarily going to determine what this committee does. You testify.
You are liere as a witness. Senator Curtis is being accorded the op-
portunity to present to this committee testimony that he says will
sustain charges or develop charges of improper practices against
the UAW and certain of its officials. That is what we are here
for.
Proceed, Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Do you know of a case where someone refused to
pay the flower fund ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What was the man's name ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. The man's name was Dewey McGhee.
Senator Curtis. Where did it happen ? What city ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. That man was assigned on the staff under Gosser's
department. He was in and out of the drive in Elyria, Ohio, on num-
erous occasions. I believe he worked out of the Cleveland office, as
his headquartei-s. I had known him only by seeing him in the Detroit
offices.
In the subregional office in Cleveland, which was headed by Mr.
Wesley Schultz, who came to Canton periodically to see me, he called
me once and told me to drive over to Cleveland tomorrow, which was
a Saturday.
Senator Curtis. What year was this ?
(At this point Senator Mundt returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Well, it had to be 1953 or 1954, but I am reason-
ably sure it is 1954.
Senator Curtis. All right. What happened ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. He told me that
Senator Curtis. Who told you ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Mr. Schultz told me that Gosser's office was com-
mg over to work over Dewey McGhee for his failure to pay the flower
fund, and that he was way out of line on it, and that Madrzykowski
was coming over, and that they were having Mr. McGhee in the office
on Saturday, which was never open otherwise. But he told me that
they had to give McGhee a talking-to.
Well, I knew McGhee only by — just as I said, I saw him in the De-
troit offices, and he had been in and out of the drive in Elyria. But,
nevertheless, I did not see no point in me particularly being there, but
I went on Saturday to the office. Mr. McGhee was there, Mr. Schultz.
I don't recall whether Mr. Madrzykowski was there when I arrived,
or whether he came later. I believe he came later, because as I recall,
we sat around for a while.
He told Mr. McGhee, "Well, let's go. We can use the other office or
the back office." They went to the basement. Schultz told me that
McGhee was way out of line, that Walter was going to tell him exactly
what he had to do pertaining to the flower fund, and that was going to
be it.
Senator Curtis. What did happen ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. The man came back after a half hour or so down
with Madryzkowski.
Senator Curtis. Where did they go ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Down in the basement of the office.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20153
Senator Curtis He was a colored man ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What did you observe when they came back ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, there was no doubt in anybody's mind, I don't
think, but what could tell by looking at the man that his spirits weren't
very high. Apparently he had been subjected to, I would say, a good
reprimanding or talking to.
Senator Curtis. Because he did not pay the flower fund ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I am only telling you what Mr. Schultz told me.
Senator Curtis. I understand.
Now we must hurry along. I will come back to my question before
the interruption.
Were there any promises made to workei-s in these plants where there
w^as organization activity going on, which you did not approve?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What was the nature of those promises ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, in the General Industries plant, when we
went into that in Elyria, the information developed immediately, a
couple of weeks after I was there, of some women in that town who
had lost their jobs in a plant as a result of attempting to get the
UAW — I am sure it was the UAW — into that plant some years prior
to that, and that they had lost their jobs and they had quite a bit of
seniority.
Mr. White and I contacted those people — I think they contacted us,
one of the women did, I know, because we were in her home. She
told us what had happened.
Senator Curtis. Briefly, what did happen? Wliat had they been
told in connection with an organizational drive that lost their live-
lihood?
Mr. Motsinger. Those people I am referring to there when I went
into town had been fired in the past. I couldn't tell you what they
had been told.
Now, then, we were on a new drive in the same plant, and the people
there were being told or had been told by Whit© in the organizational
drive if they would support us and don't worry about it, we will take
care of you. The question had come up about : "You know what they
will do. They will fire everybody here." That was, naturally, a
violation of the NLKB. That was pointed out to them and said,
"Don't worry about it."
They said, "Yes, that is easy to say, but what will we live on?"
Wliite would t«ll them, "Don't wwry about that. The UAW will
take care of that. We will fight the case all the way through. We
will get you jobs. Don't worry about it. Besides, they cannot fire
you. They can't do it. You are going to be classified as voluntary
organizers and they can't do it."
Well, these people listened to him. As a result, in 1953, a number
of those people were fired outright, called in tiie office— I think I would
be safe m saying that they were fired illegally by the rules of the Gov-
ernment, the NLRB, but, nevertheless, they were fired.
Senator Curtis. Now, coming to this point, were the promises made
to them of help if they did lose their jobs carried through?
Mr. Motsinger. No. The last that I saw was letters in Philadelphia
some months later of people who were losing their homes and still
begging for support from the international to do something about it.
20154 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
But as far as the statements that were made, a petition was filed with
the NLRB in behalf of them, that the company was violating the fair
labor practices by doing this, and these people were all gathered in
our office every day, waiting for a report of something.
As time went on, they began to tell me, "What about all these
promises of you people?"
I said, "Just a minute. This man never made you no promise at the
time," because I had objected to White. White informed me, "Look,
you have heard Dick Gosser say at school, at camp, I am sure, that
your job is to organize the people and what you tell them or what you
have to do is to organize them and that is it."
"Now," he says, "that is exactly what we do."
I said, "White, I would use every method at my command to try to
organize the people, but I will never promise a man that his livelihood
will be restored or taken care of for him if I couldn't deliver, myself.
I wouldn't do that."
On occasion of taking these people to Cleveland, they were losing
their cars. I was assigned a task of taking one of them in to Cleveland
to try to find employment for him through the regional office, inas-
much as the finance company was trying to take the young fellow's
car away from him. On the way, he told me about all these promises
that Wliite had made him.
When I came back to the office, I approached White on this. I said,
"You have told these people what you were going to do. Hereafter
this taking them to places, to factories, to try to find them jobs, you
take care of it. You are the one who told them you would feed them."
And I said, "Don't push this off onto me because I didn't never tell any-
body anything."
Senator Curtis. I think we have covered that, have taken all the
time we can on that.
Senator Kennedy. Could I ask a brief question before we leave
that?
Senator CuKTis. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Going back to where you told us that Schultz
told him that Madrzykowski was coming over to work on McGhee •
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Schultz told me.
Senator Kennedy. Then ]\Iadrzykowski came over ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Went in the cellar with McGhee ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. McGhee came up looking low in spirits ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Why was he low in spirits ?
Mr. Motsinger. Mr. Kennedy, I didn't ask Mr. McGhee what tran-
spired in the basement. I can only tell you what Mr. Madrzykowski
said he was called over for and wliat I was called over for, 70 miles,
paid by the international.
Senator Ivennedy. Did Madrzykowski tell you what he was called
over for ?
Mr. Motsinger. No.
Senator Kennedy. Wliat is the significance of going down in the
cellar and Mr. McGhee coming up low in spirits ?
Mr. Motsinger. What is the significance of it ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20155
Senator Kennedy. Yes.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Doesn't it speak for itself ?
Senator Kjennedy. No, it doesn't. That is why I want you to speak
forth.
Mr. Motsinger. I can only tell you my impression of what it meant.
Senator Kennedy. How did you gain your impression ? Did any-
body tell you or were you just deducting it ?
Mr. Motsinger. I don't know if I can paint a picture of it. I was
told to come to Cleveland by the coordinator of a drive, that a man
was going to be worked over for failure to pay his flower fund. I went
over and that man came and he was taken to the basement and come
back and looked awful bad. That is as clear as I can paint it.
Senator Kennedy. Did he have physical bruises on him ?
Mr. Motsinger. No. I don't think there would have been any on
this man because
Senator Kennedy. Do you have information that there was violence
used on him?
Mr. Motsinger. No, sir. I am not suggesting that there is any
violence used on him.
Senator Kennedy. Do you know if Mr. McGhee was ever dropped
from the U AW?
Mr. Motsinger. I have never — well, I wouldn't say that I have ever
seen Mr. McGhee since that time, because it is possible that I did. I
will put it this way : I haven't seen Mr. McGhee since I left the inter-
national staff.
Senator Kennedy. Was Mr. McGhee dropped from the UAW for
failure to pay dues ?
Mr. Motsinger. As far as I know, Mr. McGhee is on the staff to-
day. I don't know that he is off' the staff. I have heard that he was,
but I don't know that. I don't know.
Senator Kennedy. In other words, you have not been informed
that Mr. McGhee was dropped from the UAW for failure to pay dues ?
Mr. Motsinger. No, sir.
Senator Kennedy. This is the first time you have heard this?
Mr. Motsinger. That is right.
Senator Ivennedy. Mr. Madrzykowski did not inform you why he
had come over to Cleveland but Mr. Schultz did ; is that correct ?
Mr. Motsinger. That is correct.
Senator Kennedy. Is Mr. Schultz one of the witnesses ?
Senator Curtis. No, he is not.
Senator Kennedy. Is Mr. Schultz going to be called ?
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Schultz was here — no, that is a different Schultz.
Mr. Motsinger. This is Wesley Schultz of Cleveland. The Schultz
they are referring to is
Senator Kennedy. I think we ought to have Mr. Schultz. I would
like to get the facts on Mr. Schultz's testimony about coming over
to work over. Those words have a definite implication, the implica-
tion being violence.
This witness has stated he knows nothing about that. He states
they went down to the cellar and came up low in spirits.
I would like to find out, seeing it has been introduced and the im-
plication being quite obvious, I think we ought to find out, first from
Mr. Madrzykowski and then Mr. Schultz, as to what did transpire,
whether the disagreement was over union dues — it is my understand-
20156 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
ing that lie has been discharged for failure to pay dues — or whether
the dispute was over the flower fund, and, secondly, what transpired
in the cellar.
Mr. Rauii. Mr. Mooney was here. He knows that Mr. McGhee was
discharged for this. He is available if you would like to call him.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Mr. Rauh, we will try to handle this from up here. I might say
that a witness is here who can testify, who can give us that informa-
tion.
What is your name?
Mr. MooNEY. Joe Mooney, administrative assistant to Mr. Gosser.
The Chairman. All right. Be seated. We may call you.
Proceed.
I would like to get through with this witness first.
Can you give us some idea. Senator Curtis, about how long you
will be?
Senator Curtis. I thought I would be finished long ago. I am not
critical, but there have been other matters not entirely under my
control.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Motsinger, you mentioned this man IVliite.
What was his first name ?
Mr. Motsinger. Russell Wliite.
Senator Curtis. Your job as international representative was ter-
minated. What happened to Mr. AVhite ?
Mr. JSIoTsiNGER. Well, Mr. White was maintained on the staff, for
how long I don't know— this was in 1955, 4 years ago, when we went
off. But later he was placed back in his local as president of the local,
or put back in the local and ran for president, of which he had been
president in prior years, four or five— five terms, I believe, five or six.
And from there he was elevated by Soapy Williams to commissioner of
labor to the State of Michigan.
Senator Curtis. This White was appointed commissioner of labor
for the State of Michigan ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Was he confirmed ?
Mr. Motsinger. No, sir. He served 3 months and was rejected.
Senator Curtis. Why was he not confirmed ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, I couldn't answer that except that the senate
committee refused confirmation. I can only say that the senate com-
mittee of the State of Michigan discussed the man with me.
Senator Curtis. He was offered as commissioner of labor, as presi-
dent of a local union ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes. At the time he was appointed to the staff,
publicity was given the fact that he was the president of a Lansing,
Mich., union, and they had deleted the fact publicly at the time that
he had been on the Reuther and Gosser staff as an international repre-
sentative all over the country for the past 3, 4, or 5 years, I am not
certain how long.
Senator Curtis. It was your understanding, then, that he was pre-
sented for this position as a president of a local, but the information
was not given of his years of experience as an international represent-
ative. That is correct, is it ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20157
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is correct, I think, sir.
Senator Curtis. Was that at least one of the main points in your
luiderstanding that caused the Senate committee to fail to confirm him ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, it developed into quite a political battle in
Michigan inasmuch as they had to dismiss the man who had that job
and had held it for a period of 15 or 20 years, had to just outright say
he was too old or something to that effect, to move him out.
Senator Curtis. My question is this, Mr. Motsinger: Is it your
understanding that the failure to disclose his years of experience as
an international representative was a factor in causing his rejection
by the Senate committee ?
\h'. Motsinger. I don't know that.
Senator Curtis. All right.
Mr. Motsinger, were you ever asked to make collections of money to
buy gifts, boats, or anything else for Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Motsinger. No; I was never asked to make a collection or
anything.
Senator Curtis. Did you make any ?
Mr. Motsinger. I made contributions, but I have never been asked
t o make them.
Senator Curtis. You made contributions? What were they ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, it would be at the Sand Lake Summer Camp
that is in Sand Lake, Mich., where the Gosser staff meets for the vari-
ous types of training courses yearly.
Senator Curtis. And you w^ould be asked to contribute to that?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, not just me. That w^as everyone there that
would be asked for a donation of $3 or $4 for a boat or something like
that. I recall once that it was a boat because I think they had the
1)oat brought in and set up in front. It probably cost three or four
hundred dollars, something like that.
The Chairman. Kind of a good will present or something, an ap-
preciation present to your boss ? That is what it was ?
Mr. Motsinger. Possibly.
The Chairman. I have had my office staff give me a present as
good will, a token of appreciation. Is that all you are talking about?
Or is there something sinister about it ?
Mr. Motsinger. No ; I don't think so.
The Chairman. All right ; proceed.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, that is all I have. My counsel,
Mr. Manuel, has a question or two.
Senator Church. Mr. Chairman, I want to make an observation,
now that this witness" testimony is completed. I haxe been on this
committee for 2 years, and in the course of these 2 years I have heard
many cases brought before the conmiittee involving violence and em-
bezzlement, extortion and blackmail, and nobody ever had to ask what
was wrong or what the impropriety might be. This is the first time
that I have had the experience of listening to testimony for 2 days
and then having to have members of the committee explain in lengthy
]jresentations just wdiat the impropriety is that the testimony of the
witness apparently bears out.
The burden of this witness's testimony essentially is this, as I see it :
That he acquired what he himself describes as a coveted position on
the international staff of the LTAW; that if not expressly then im-
20158 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
pliedly understood it to be a part of the condition of his employment
that he was to vohmteer $5 a week from his wao;es for a campaign
fund that would be used by the international stafi' of the UAW.
Secondly, that he was to volunteer $2 a week for the political action
committee, which represented the fund from which the union drew
for supporting candidates they favored for political office.
The third thing that he says he had to do w^as that on one occasion
in New York he had to drive in a sound truck in connection with a
New York campaign.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Church. Just a moment.
I have listened to the testimony for 2 days and that is essentially the
burden of that testimony, as I see it.
If this constitutes an improper practice within the purview of the
kind of thing that this Rackets Committee has been exploring, then I
must say that it is a very common one. We are all grown up. We all
know how politics work in this country, and the things that have been
testified to in the last couple of days are things that are commonly
known not only to union organizations but to many business organ-
izations, they are practices that we all know about in connection with
political campaigns all the time, and they are practices that are not a
bit uncommon to our political parties and to the Senators who run for
office.
I just don't think that it dignifies this committee to pretend other-
wise,
I think that if we are going to be discriminating, we have to differ-
entiate between the kind of testimony we have heard in the last 2 days,
and the kind of testimony that has typified the cases that have been
brought before this committee.
Senator Kennedy. Will the Senator yield ?
Senator Church. I yield.
Senator Kennedy. I think the point of the matter is that the reason
this story is a story on a page of a newspaper or a radio is because of
whatever prestige, stature, and good will this committee was able to
develop in the last 2i/2 years, and because this committee has devoted
its attention to genuine hoodlums and racketeers, and real examples of
extortion and embezzlement.
Therefore, when this committee brings a witness before it, the pre-
sumption by those who make up newspapers and those who read them
is that there is something really sinister and wrong, or otherwise the
attention of the McClellan committee, day after day, would not be
engaged in this matter.
This is not a common hearing, and I think it is only an opportunity
by Senator Curtis, which this committee is giving him, to make a case.
Therefore, I would hope that anyone who reports this story or who
reads this story will recognize that this is an unusual case, that
there is no presumption of wrongdoing on the part of the committee,
but is merely an opportunity given to one Senator to present what he
feels may be an impropriety, a view which may not be shared, and so
far is not shared, by all members of the committee.
Thank you, Senator.
Senator Goldwater. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Groldwater.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20159
Senator Goldwater. I have to disagree with my friend from Idaho
and my friend from Massachusetts.
We are adults. We say we know these things go on, in our political
lives, the political lives of corporations, businesses, and unions. If it
is voluntary, I don't think we can have any argument about it. If it
is compulsory, I think the American people will abhor it.
I recall many times in my youth hearing campaigns in my city
against this type of thing. I think in the State of Massachusetts at
many, many different times in history, people have risen up against
this very type of thing.
I think that it is proper for this committee to look into this, as
long as it is a question of whether or not it is volmitary or compul-
sion. If it is voluntary, purely voluntary, then I don't think we can
find any fault with it. If it is compulsory, I don't think the Ameri-
can people would like it. I can't go along with people in politics
who say that they can accept this type of thing in their moral code
as they approach politics. I don't like it myself.
Nobody in my employ has ever been required to give me a dime
to keep their job. I am not inferring that either of my friends on
the other side of the aisle require it. But I will say that I don't like
compulsion. My whole argument with Mr. Reuther down through
the years has been one based on the use of compulsory dues money for
purposes other than they were taken for. I don't like that compulsion
when it is used in corporations or when it is used in politics. I think
men in this country have the free right to spend their money as they
see fit, except in the event of taxation, over which they have, unfortu-
nately, too little control.
So the question in my mind that I think we should be trying to
determine here is : Are these men required to do this by compulsion
or do they do it in a voluntary way ?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Manuel has a couple of questions.
The Chairman. Before Mr. Manuel proceeds, the Chair wants to
make this observation : We are going to keep this record straight. We
undertook to hold executive hearings so that Senator Curtis could
present information he had for the committee's consideration and
determination of whether it warranted public hearings. Senator Cur-
tis had information that he was unwilling to give to the committee in
any way other than in executive session, and therefore the committee
was unable and did not undertake to pass judgment upon the merits
of whether whatever information he had and whatever testimony he
could produce from witnesses who warrant a public hearing.
So we started, as a courtesy to Senator Curtis, to give him an op-
portunity to present to the committee information he thought would
show improprieties and that might warrant a public hearing. We
tried it that way, having in mind it might take a couple or 3 days
to get that information before the committee. That w^as an unusual
procedure. Heretofore, information given or information received
was given to the staff and they made an investigation, reported back,
and public hearings were ordered.
20160 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
In the course of trying to hold public hearings to determine this,
tliere was a demand or a request that the committee proceed into pub-
lic hearings without further examination of the issues.
First I opposed that because I thought we ought to proceed as origi-
nally planned. While the procedure was a little unusual, I felt that we
should not deny to a member of the coimnittee an opportunity to pre-
sent to the conunittee in executive session information that he claimed
to have. But the result was that it took such a turn of events that
finally the committee voted unanimously to move into public hearings.
This is a presentation by one member of the committee to the com-
mittee primarily, and now to the public as a whole, of what he thinks
may be an impropriety. Surely he thinks that or he wouldn't want to
take up the the time of the committee with it. It is being presented
in that light, and it is now out in the public. The committee staff as a
whole, and the other members of the committee, are simply here lis-
tening, as you are, to what Senator Curtis wants to present that he con-
tends may be an impropriety or a matter that the committee should
pass judgement on.
Have I stated it correctly ?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Senator Mundt.
Senator Mundt. May I say as vice chairman of the committee
The Chairman, Have I stated it correctly up to here ?
Senator Mundt. Do I have the floor ?
The Chairman. Yes, I am asking you a question. If I haven't,
you correct it.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, may I say as vice chairman of the
committee, the Chair is unduly alarmed. I was about to say that I
subscribe to every single word that the chairman has just said. He
has put the picture precisely, accurately, and correctly, and I am sure
has cast these hearings in exactly the proper framework with the
proper coloration.
However, may I add that since it has become a practice of some of
my colleagues on the committee to engage in some new kind of com-
mittee routine of giving a running verdict one witness at a time as
to where this hearing is leading, I am going to have my say on this
running verdict at this time, just as they have had theirs.
I think it is unfortunate that we, at the conclusion of the first pub-
lic witne.ss, began to assume that this is the hearing, and tiy to have a
verdict of any kind at this stage.
But I am not going to remain silent while two of my beloved col-
leagues have issued their verdicts, lest it be concluded that the jury
has unanimously decided before the evidence has come in on the verdict
of the committee.
No. 1, I happen to believe that the compulsory contribution to the
flower funds is as reprehensible, if it takes place in a union, as though
it took place in a congressional office. I don't belieA^e that in this
great, free country of ours anybody who happens to have a good,
prominent, well-paying position has any right to say to another asso-
ciate who works for lesser money and with lesser prominence that
"In order to hold your job, you have to contribute to a fund to help
me to hold my job." I don't think that is good practice. It is a
practice which I deplore, whether it is legal or illegal. I don't think
it is ethical.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20161
There I disagree with my good friend from Massacliusetts who says
he doesn't see that this is of any great concern, since the witness testi-
fied he did it with his eyes open.
You do lots of things with your eyes open, may I say to my good
friend, if you are looking for a job, if you don't happen to have a
good bank account, if you don't happen to have any other source of
revenue, and you want to get ahead in the w^orld, and the fellow on
top says, "All right, I will help you get ahead provided you kick into,
my fund."
I would like to see that eliminated across the board in America,,
including labor unions, even though it may not be against the law.
The second thing, I think is against the law, and on this I learned
something new as a member of this conmiittee. Senator Church says
this goes on all the time ; it is a common practice. If it is, maybe, it is
like spitting on the sidewalk, which is a common practice, but it is
dejjlorable and reprehensible.
I think it is deplorable and reprehensible that we have another
interlude of taxation without representation in America which, if I
understand the witness' testimony, is what he was asked to engage in.
I applaud him for deploring it, although I regret that the fact of his
opposition resulted in a series of unpleasant incidents, finally re-
sulting in a fist fight and his dismissal from this coveted job.
But I would like to point this out, Mr. Chairman, that common
or uncommon, when you have dues-paying money collected from
working men and women under compulsory unionism, so that they
have no choice but to pay the dues or lose their job, it is not right,,
and I don't believe it is legal.
But it is not right for an international vice president to engage
a bunch of political goon squads and to have their salaries paid by the
working men and women, and the orders as to what they do politically
come from on top, so that the men who j^ay the money in dues are
in the position of having to support candidates for office that they
might prefer to oppose.
If that is a concept of Americanism, it is not mine.
I think that if we can do anything in this committee to expose it,,
fine. If we can do anything to eradicate it, put me down among those
trying to do the job.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. l^Cotsinger, I believe you said you were on Vice
President Gosser's staff in 1953, I believe tnat is your testimony so
far
The Chairman. Let the Chair make this observation : I appreciate
tlie vice chairman agreeing with the comments the Chair made try-
ing to keep this in proper perspective. There are some members of
this committee who feel that tliese hearings are not very fruitful and
not very productive. I wanted to get the thing in its proper perspec-
tive, so that those who hear and listen and see and read will know that
if this is developing or should develop into a hearing where there is
nothing much productive from it, those who are presenting it would
have the responsibility. If it does develop into something that is very
fruitful and of value to the committee and to the public, then the
committee will have acted right in permitting to it be presented.
But I just want the record kept straight. I don't want to deny any
member of this committee the right to present what he thinks may
be improprieties and evidence that would so show.
20162 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
I did feel and undertook to conduct the matter that way, that those
things should be presented first in executive session so the committee
could pass judgment, so that the committee as a whole could pass
judgment.
We were not able to carry out that program and that plan. Now
we are out in open hearings, in public hearings, and everyone will be
able to judge for themselves, both the members of the committee and
the public at large, as to whether it should have been a public hear-
ing, whether there is anything in it of any real substance, of any real
consequences that the committee should inquire into. I say that
because that is the true situation.
Are there any other questions of this witness ?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. May I say this, too, to my colleagues : I hope we
can get right at the crux of whatever is involved here, whatever is at
issue, get right at the crux of it, and get out here before the public
so we will know exactly what it is.
I am not complaining. The witness is taking a lot of time, but he
has been asked a lot of questions. But if we can cut across and get
down into the real merits, the real issue, let's try to do it and expedite
the hearings as much as possible.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Mr. Chairman ?
Senator Mundt. May I also say now as vice chairman that what the
chairman has said is correct, and that I associated myself with him in
tlie long series of executive discussions leading up to these hearings.
The newspaper reports to the eflfex;t that we were having violent
quarrels, and so forth, were related to fringe benefits of these dis-
cussions and not to the gist of it.
The chairman and I both felt that this should be done in executive
session. I think it is interesting that the two Senators who have
complained the most about the witness talking in public were the two
who voted originally to have it in public session.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I shall not consume the time that
has been granted here to present witnesses by answering the state-
ments that have been made. I am willing to concede that the facts
on the record for anybody to read in reference to Mr. Zvara, Mr. Love,
Mr. Speidell, this witness, or anybody else. The interpretation of
those depends upon the moral concepts of the individual who reads it.
We are concerned about a principle here where men are denied their
political rights, forced to contribute to candidates and causes in which
they do not believe, and we are also interested in what happened to the
flower fund.
I do not know why we cannot get any evidence as to whether or not
this flower fund was used to maintain the union leaders in office.
The records, if there are records of all the money, including the cash,
would show that. The record is also clear that we have asked and
asked for those records. We have a few pages relating to this year.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I wish Mr. Manuel to ask a question or two,
aind that will be all of this witness.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Manuel, ask a question or two.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20163
Mr, IVLvNUEL. Mr. Motsino;er, we want to move this along. This
conmiittee went into the Kohler dispute some time ago, which was
marked by a lot of violence. Was there ever a time when you were
assigned to Mr. Gosser's staff that you were called to Sand Lake, you
and the other international representatives ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, sir; we were called to Sand Lake once each
year.
Mr. ]VL^NUEL. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. MoTsixGER. Each year.
Mr. Manuel. Was tliei-e an occasion when you were called to Sand
Lake and addressed by Mr. Gosser with reference to the Kohler strike?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir; in 1954.
Mr. :^LvNUEL. Tell us what Mr. Gosser told you and the other as-
sembled representati^•es.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I think the transcript of the meeting of the 1954 at
the camp would show^ that the Kohler affair was discussed vei-y
thoroughly.
Mr. AL\NUEL. What else did he say ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. With the representatives there, I think that was
discussed very thoroughly at Sand Lake, pertaining to Kohler strike,
m every phase with the people who were on that strike, who were up
at the camp, and Mr. Gosser and them, and what the job was and what
they had to do clown there.
(At this point Senator Kennedy withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Gosser tell you anything about sending some
people up to Kohler 'I Yes or no.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. What did he tell you ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, he made remarks once there about the physi-
cal condition of all of the international representatives. He elaborated
on this for a lengthy period.
Mr. Manuel. What else did he say ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. About the shape of all of them, being so fat and
sloppy and everything; that none of them could stand up on a picket
line tor 5 minutes, or anything like that, if they had to, and that they
were or should be ashamed of themselves.
Mr. MvNUEL. Did he have any prescription for taking the fat off
of some of you people, and, if so, what was it ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. One of his personal references to me toward taking
the fat off was the Canton, Ohio, drive was bogged down, and there
was a question of wliether they were even going to continue it or not,
inasmuch as it was going on for 14 years.
Mr. Manuel. Did he^tell you anything about sending a bunch of
you up to Kohler ?
Mr MoTsiNGER. Pie didn't say a bunch of us. I think that was dis-
cussed m open meeting. But with me personally, what he told me
when I asked him what he would do about the situation at Canton'
he told me, "You just mark time. Don't worry about it. I may have
to send a feAv, and I may have to send you down to Kohler, because
It looks like that will be a head-busting thing, and you will get that
tat: worked off of you down there." He told me that.
Mr. Manuel. In essence, he said that he was going to send some
ot you up there to break heads: is that i-ight^
36751— 60— pt. 58 17
20164 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoTSiNGER. He used the expression that it looked like it would
be a head-busting affair, or words to that effect.
Mr, Manuel. At that time was Mr. Donald Rand on the staff of
Gosser as international representative ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Don Rand was in camp at that time.
Mr. Manuel. Was he present and heard this address ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Mr. JVIanuel. I think the records of this committee will show that
during the Kohler strike he did go up and break quite a few heads.
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Chairman, you can't let him continue to say that.
There is nothing in the record to support that.
Senator Curtis. We ask that Mr. Rauh either be removed from the
committee room or else asked to be still. He does not represent the
witness.
The (^hairman. Mr. Rauh will not be removed from the committee
room as of now. I think he gets a little impetuous sometimes. But
the chairman, with the help of the members of the committee, will
keep the thing in order. As to the comment made by counsel that he
did go up there and get a lot of heads busted, or something, the record
will show exactly from sworn testimony what happened at Kohler.
We went into it for nearly 2 months. The record is here and speaks
for itself. Whether liead busting was used as a figure of speech or
used to indicate going up there and actually cracking the skull of a
human being I don't know. But then the record is already made.
Proceed.
Mr. Manuel. Was a Mr. Robert Burkhart also an international rep-
resentative on Mr. Gosser's staff at that time ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. His name was on the list.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know whether he was present at that talk ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I couldn't say, sir, that he was present.
Mr. Manuel. But you do know Donald Rand was there?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes. I was assigned on a committee with Don
Rand. I think the record will show that.
Mr. Manuel. There are two other mattei-s that I think this com-
mittee would be interested in.
When you were down in Canton, Ohio, do you know anything about
a strike which w^as called down there and which, in turn, idled many
of the workers up in the Ford plant in Detroit ? It is a rather cele-
brated case which was decided by the Supreme Court of Michigan not
too long ago. Do you know anything about the strike in the small
plant down in Ohio ? If so, tell us what it is.
Mr. Motsinger. I can only tell you this : I was not in Canton, Ohio,
when the strike was called in the spring. I was on the staff, on what
they call G. & A. staff of Detroit at that time, general and administra-
tive. It was along about the time that I went on the strike. I was
fully aware of what was happening over there because I was on the
staff with all of the Ford international representatives in that area,
which was 11 or 12, and we knew about the strike.
Mr. Manuel. Is it true that the UAW then had a 5-year contract
with Ford which had 2 yeai'S yet to go ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know anything about the strike that was
called down in Canton, and, if so, how do you know it ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20165
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, now, I suppose every one on the UAW staff
knew about the strike in Canton at the time, possibly why it was being
called. I can't say that everybody did, but I say at least
Mr. Manuel. Did you know 'i
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. What was the purpose ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. It was known around that it was a strategy move
of the head of the UAW to more or less place their finger on the pulse
or the lifeline of the Ford empire to bring about the opening of the
5-year contract in the middle of its duration. I think newspaper
testimony would verify that.
Mr. Manuel. How would that happen ?
Would it be by striking a small plant which made vital parts that
that in turn would idle the entire Ford plant ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. Did you have any conversations with the president
of that Canton local which called the strike, Mr. Forcioni, I believe?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, not at that time. I did not know Dan For-
cioni. At a subsequent date, after I was transferred to Canton, I
was, naturally, talking about it with the boys over in Canton because
they were very proud of the part they had played, some of the officers
were, and some were not.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Forcioni acknowledge to you that he had
participated in callmg that small strike ?
Mr. Motsinger. I was introduced to Mr. Forcioni who was the past
president, I think he was the president during the strike, by tlie cur-
rent president, at the Christmas meeting in the school.
Mr. :Manuel. What did he tell you ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, he related to me what had happened, that
he had done the job for them in Canton.
(At this point Senator Goldwater withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Mr. Manuel. What was the job ?
Mr. Motsinger. Successfully getting the people out on strike. And
that as a result of it, the people in Canton were so embittered be-
cause they had been used that he had been kicked out of office in the
election, or defeated in the election, and that he felt it was a dirty deal
inasmuch as they had used him in that manner, and that he was being
put back in the plant and had been back in the plant ever since leaving
the presidency, or whatever his job — he was president.
Mr. Manuel. Did that, in i'act, result in reopening the contract
with Ford which the UAAV had and which still had 2 years to go?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, I believe it did.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know that later on the Supreme Court of
Michigan held that these unemployment insurance benefits could be
paid to these strikers up in the Ford plant?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, I know that. That is a matter of record in
Michigan now.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know that a considerable sum of money was
paid out as a. result of that case, which was decided recently?
If you don't, say so.
Mr. Motsinger. All I know is what the newspapers say. $2 mil-
lion was paid to the employees. I am working in a plant where the
20166 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
men were recipients of that money, a lot of it, because that was a
plant in Detroit that was forced to go on strike, I mean to be without
employment, while the strike was in Canton. It just so happens that
that is the plant I am in now.
Mr. IVIanuel. There is only one other matter. 1 ou have been talk-
ing somethmg about your political activity in ]\Iichigan. Did you
ever campaign either for or against ex- Senator Potter, of Michigan,
as a UAW political action man ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, I didn't campaign against Senator Potter.
Mr. Manuel. Did you hear any conversations about what the tech-
nique should be on the part of the political action boys as to Senator
Potter's campaign? That is, with respect to his physical appear-
ance, the loss of two legs during World War II ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, I think we are going way back there. I
realized when those statements were made; yes.
Mr. Manuel, Who told you?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. On Potter? In his first election ?
Mr. Manuel. 1952 ? -i • i
Mr. Motsinger. The conversation came about by describing the
smear tactics that are used by the union or the UAW on political can-
didates, and also smear tactics that are used by the UAW m cam-
paigns to defeat local union officers, too.
Mr. Manuel. Let's stick to the one we have in mind now.
What, if anything, did anyone, assistant director, or anyone else,
tell you and others, or others in your presence, what the word should
be as to Senator Potter ?
Mr. Motsinger. On the Potter incident, that was a man by the
name of Darden Young.
Mr. Manuel. "Wlioishe?
Mr. Motsinger. He is an assistant director of region 1-A.
Mr. Manuel. Does he still have that job ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
Mr. Manuel. What did he say about Senator Potter ?
Mr. Motsinger. This developed in a conversation there about
Mr. Manuel. State what it is.
Mr. Motsinger. Well, the statement was made in a conversation m,
I believe it was 1952, when he was running against Blair Moody.
Mr. Manuel. What was the conversation? IVliat did he state
should be expressed ?
Mr. Motsinger. Well, we were discussing, we were talking about
that my position was that Potter would have a runaway, he would
have a' runaway of the election because, I said, he obviously has a
good record, a man like that. Barden pointed out to me "Well, wait
until the word gets around how he lost those legs and everything."
He brought that out, and he said "Wait until the word gets around
how he lost them."
I asked him what was this information. He said "Don t you know i
And I said, "No, I presume he is a war casualty."
He said, "Wait until it gets around to finding out what actually
happened, that he was slightly inebriated, and fell off a truck, in a
truck accident."
Mr. Manuel. And that is how he in fact lost his legs ?
Mr. Motsinger. That was the story.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20167
Mr, Manuel. Was that smear spread, as far as you know ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I suppose it was.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever talk to Senator Potter subsequently
about this thing ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I talked to Senator Potter in 1958.
Mr. Manuel. Did he confirm that this had been used against him ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. That is all.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, we are ready for the next witness.
Mr. Eauh. Mr. Chairman, I have some questions to be put to the
witness. Since the stalf is unable to do so, I would ask the chairman
if he will put the questions.
Kule 11 provides for questions being put through the Chair. Par-
ticularly because the staff is not able to question, I would ask that these
be put to Mr. Motsinger.
Mr. Motsinger. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say something from
the witness standpoint.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
The Chair will hear you briefly. Go ahead.
Mr. Motsinger. Are you talking to me ?
The Chairman. You are the witness ; yes.
]Mr. IMoTSiNGER. Well, I have had difficulty because I wanted to get
some statements in here for my protection in my home State and in
the labor movement, and on several occasions I have asked for the
floor. I resent the man behind me whose salary
The Chairman. You sit down. You are simply a witness. You
are not a prosecutor ; are you ?
Mr. Motsinger. Do I have the same privileges that this gentleman
does whose salary I am helping pay ?
The Chairman. Just a minute. He is an attorney representing
certain clients here and he has certain rights that are going to be re-
spected, and as a witness you have certain rights, and I am going to
respect your rights. If you have any document that you wish to sub-
mit that you have not submitted, if you will present it, the committee
will pass on its relevancy.
Mr. Motsinger. I would just put it this way
The Chairman. I started to say credibility, but I knew that wasn't
the word I wanted to use.
Mr. Motsinger. I would put it this way : Before this hearing is
adjourned this morning, I want to get x^ertam statements of mine into
the record of my position in the UAW, and as a citizen of the United
States, which has been left out to this point, for the protection of me
and my family and my position in my State. If I am granted that
ojiportunity, it will take less than 5 minutes to do it. But I would
like to be assured of that opportunity.
The Chairman. The Chair is going to grant you the privilege. As
long as you talk to the subject that is pertinent to this inquiry, you
will be heard.
Proceed.
Mr. Motsinger. A lot of the evidence tliat is emanating from the
respective sources here was my position regarding the labor move-
ment long before I went on the stafl' of Walter Reuther, which the
records would show, or my articles in local newspapers would show
20168 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
that I stood up against certain things when T felt it was improper,
reo-ardless of whether it was against Reuther or anyone else. But I
want to point out that due to the press coverage of this, I am being put
in a bad light. I have sutfered what I felt was enough penalty m a
period of over 4 years since leaving the statf . 1 now stand in the posi-
tion of being pla'ced in the category of being a tool of management or
something. I hope that the people will bear with me Avhen 1 tell them
that I have been unemployed most of the time since leaving the staif,
due to my international background. In the last year my total earn-
ings were $300 for the entire period, and that I have only been working
5 months out of the 1 ast 20. I have suffered a great hardship and tried
to get relief from that hardship. But I want to point out that some
of this information has come from my desire to appear before the
Barden committee or any other committee to heli) di-aft some legisla-
tion in the ITnited States that I have found has been deleted in any
of the three bills in Washington, that I felt the membership of the
UAW was entitled to it, the dues-paying members.
Those questions have not been brought out, and only part have,
which would leave it in a bad light, that I was an antiunion person.
For the record I want to state that I have been a miion member for the
past 17 yeai-s, of 142, and no man appreciates the union any more than I
do, and that I came from a State where I never had the privilege of
working in a union for 17 cents an hour, and that I am not antiunion,
and were a shooting war to break out tomon-ow between management
and the people in the ranks of the union, I would be shooting at man-
agement. But I want these things to be carried back to my people, be-
cause I feel that I am the only one that suffered a great loss in every
respect and will continue to do so as a result of these hearings. I
just wanted to get that into the record. But I also want the part
about the political action that has been brought out here — I want them
also to know that my position is no different from the 1.3 million under
the jurisdiction of the UAW at this time who contribute to political
action merely because they were under the same duress and pressure,
almost as great as mine, or any other member who holds political
office, to the extent that if he wants to keep his money going from a
man who is running against his father for office, he must go to an office
and demand that his part of his dues money be set aside, and let the
tJAW-CIO, Walter Reuther, put that money to some of his charities.
That is my position on PAC. I have been against it. I am against
it. But I have been forced to contribute to it. But I would like to
see where nobody would have his dues put to a use that he doesn't
want it to. But he is not compelled to walk into management and
make the reservations that it be taken out so that the word would go
out on the floor in that plant where that man would be pointed out and
have it said that "He is a Republican and fails to contribute to PAC."
Because I can tell you that I know the people in the plants. I think
they know me or they wouldn't have kept electing me every time I
ran. But I can assure you that they do not want to face the loss of
representation in their respective plants, by so going on record that
they do not want their dues dollar distributed through PxVC at the
Ui^W level. I want that all in the record, sir.
Thank you.
The Chairman. You have put it into the record.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 20169
Senator Mundt. IVIr. Chfiirman ?
I have no objection to Mr. Rauh's questions, if the Chair decides
he wants to ask them. But before they are asked, relevant to what the
witness just said, I do recall from Mr. Walter Reuther's testimony,
when he was on the stand, that he related a situation which confirms
part of what the witness has just said. He said that PAC or COPE,
I have forgotten which, had worked out a routine whereby somebody
who was disinclined to have part of his money be used for political
purposes, could make representations to somebody and that that fund
would be set aside. The record will show, I think, that less than 500
of the whole TLVW people had run the risk of going in specifically and
telling the labor bosses "We don't like this political use of our funds.
We want to have our money set aside for some other purposes." I
think jVIr. Reuther said it went into the flower fund, but it may have
gone into some charity fund.
I have one other point, Mr. Chairman.
There has been a lot of discussion this morning as to whether or not
people are protected in their jobs who may be influenced by union of-
ficials. He mentioned a situation in one of the plants where he had
seized as an international representative, with some women who
lost their jobs. In that connection I want to point out that this type
of thing happens not only in the UAW, but it happened in the Op-
erating Engineers. I received in my office yesterday a letter from a
private in the U.S. Army, which I want to read at this time. It is a
short letter. It is from a witness before this committee, to whom I
think we have some responsibility.
The Chairman. The letter will not be regarded as evidence but as a
statement from the member of the committee.
Senator Mundt. Correct.
It is from Pfc. Peter Batalias, serial No. 32709816, Company A,
Third Training Regiment, Fort Dix, N.J.
For background, Mr. Peter Batalias was one of the witnesses who
came before our committee testifying against William Maloney, for-
mer international ])resident of the Operating Engineers, who, as a con-
sequence of these hearings, has been removed from that office and a
successor has been appointed. It had to do with the testimony against
Mr. William De Koning and other officers of Local 138 of the Operat-
ing Engineers.
Mr. Batalias has been coming to my office quite often since he ap-
peared before the committee, alleging that he had lost his job and
couldn't earn a livelihood because the union officials would no longer
permit him to serve because of the testimony he had made before this
committee. I turned him over eventually to one of my staff members,
Mr. Jim Smith, who is in this room. Mr. Batalias wrote Mr. Smith
as follows:
Dear Jim : This to inform yon that I was forced to join the Army because of
the bankrupt condition I was left in after 8 months of unemployment. I guess if
I waite<l for Robert Kennedy to take action against Meany, WoU, and the Oper-
ating Engineers for contempt of the U.S. Senate, I would die a slow death, which
is just exactly what did happen to me.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Senator Mundt. May I point out
The Chairman. You know better than that. You are making a
charge against a staff member. He has no authority to prosecute
anybody for contempt.
20170 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Mundt. No, I am not. If the Chair will hear me out, I
was about to say that there is no charge here against Mr. Kennedy.
He is simply saying that he had tried to get this committee counsel,
tried to get me, tried to get the committee, to do something to restore
his job. He is pointing out that if he had to wait for our committee
to act, he would have died a slow death.
The Chairman. Let me say that I resent that. This committee
has acted. I have never worked harder at anything in my life. That
absolutely is not true.
Senator Mundt. Let me finish the letter and we will see.
The Chairman. I don't care whether it is finished or not. It does
not belong in this record. It is not evidence. It is simply a self-
serving declaration from the writer of the letter. I don't care any-
thing about it.
I do know, and everyone else knows, that this committee has no
power to prosecute even for contempt. It can only cite people for
contempt, and to sa^ that he is waiting on this committee to do some-
thing simply is not justified, because this committee has worked hard
and continuously.
Senator Mundt. I think after I finish this letter, the chairman will
realize that the letter has a very pertinent purpose.
The Chairman. It is just a statement for the press.
Proceed.
Senator Mundt. I hope the press will cover it. I know it will be
in the record.
I want to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you from the bottom of my
heart for everything you have done. If there is any way I can be of any as-
sistance once to you, I would appreciate it if you would call me. I expect to be
stationed here for at least 2 more months, but would be tickled pink if given
the opportunity to continue fighting the protectors of racketeering and corrup-
tion in union labor. From what I have been reading in the newspapers, it ap-
pears that the tide is turning. I hope it can go all the way.
Say hello to Fritz Randolph for me, and thanks again for your sincere in-
terest in behalf of the fight for clean unionism and all America.
Yours sincerely,
Petek Batalias.
This letter to Jim Smith seems to me indicates, Mr. Chairman, that
we should call Peter Batalias and ask him specifically what was done
to probihit his right to earn a living as a union member, which he lost
because of his good Americanism in testifying before this committee.
The chairman has said over and over again to witnesses, "If we can
protect you through subpena or any way else against recriminations,
or against attacks by union officials against you who have testified, we
will do all we can."
He is quite riglit that we cannot prosecute, but it is certainly clear
that we can call ISIr. Batalias, who was forced to join the Army to
earn a living for his family, and have him relate for the record how
he was deprived of his livelihood, and it seems to me, in that way
sharpen up a case to turn over to the authorities if it is as I think it is,
strict contempt of Congress, and contempt of this committee, because
one of our witnesses lost his means of livelihood because he testified.
I mention that to point out that men do lose jobs because of this. I
think that is very pertinent, because a witness has been testifying toi
that point.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20171
The Chairman. May I ask you, Senator, if you liave requested tlie
chairman of the committee to issue a subpena for this party, or have
him here?
Senator Mundt. I do now.
The Chairjean. I am very gjhid to get it out in the public. That is
the way to make horseplay, pure and simple.
Why could you not have requested ? You wanted to advertise it to
the public. You have had your say. The cliairman is trying to carry
on this committee with due deference to everyone. You come in here
with a letter that is wholly mirelated to the subject matter now being
investigated, and read it here as if to reflect upon the Chair, the com-
mittee, and otliers because we have not done our duty to have the
fellow here. I have not heard of it until now.
Senator Muxdt. There is no reflection on the Chair and no reflec-
tion on the counsel, except for the fact
The Chairman. You know how to do it. Tell me you want a sub-
pena for him.
Senator Mundt. I ask you know.
The Chairman. Issue a subpena for him, and let it be shown that
it was done here in public instead of the request being made in the
proper way in order to carry on this committee with proper pro-
priety and procedure.
Proceed.
Is there anything further from this witness ?
If not, the Chair has some questions Submitted by the counsel
for the UAW — is that your role, Mr. Rauh ?
Mr. Rauh. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I haven't read all of them, but I think there are too
many of them. I will say that to you. Some of them I will ask. If
there is objection on the part of any member of the committee when
I ask the question, speak up.
It would seem to me that they deal with matters that the witness
has covered in his testimony, so far as I have been able to read them.
Senator Goldwater. Would the chairman yield for a moment?
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Goldwater. I would like to ask Mr. Rauh who he is repre-
senting in this particular case. Is it Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Rauh. I represent the United Automobile Workers, as I did
at the Kohler hearings, sir.
The ChairMx\n. This is a question propounded to you at the request
of counsel for the UAW, Mr. Motsinger. The question is : Were you
discharged by the UAW for striking your superior?
Mr. Motsinger. I don't know how to answer that, Mr. Chairman,
in the short sentence you want. The record of tlie UAW doesn't show
I was discharged. I could have not drawn unemployment compensa-
tion from the State of Michigan had I been discharged, because it
would have heen illegal to do so. I think the UAW termed it a "lack
of work." If I said "Yes," that I was discharged for striking a man,
I would be perjuring myself, because I was discharged for my at-
tempts over the years to do as I have stated here, and for having a
fight with Mr. White — not striking. He was struck, all right, but I
was, too.
The Chairman. Let's see if we can set the answer to it.
20172 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Let him rephrase the question, sir.
The Chairman. The answer is "No," as I understand it.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, sir ; I woukl have to say "No."
The Chairman. All right, that is the answer. Your answer is
"No."
Question No. 2 : Did you ask for and receive a hearing on your dis-
charge before the international board ?
Mr, MoTSiNGER. I tried to get my justice as prescribed in the con-
stitution of the UAW for these events such as this. I appealed to the
UAW for a chance to appear before the executive board prior to the
convention. This happened in January 1955, and there was a conven-
tion coming within 2 or 3 months. I wanted to go before the inter-
national convention witli what I have went before many people since
that time. The international executive board refused to act on my
calls or requests. They AYouldn't grant me a hearing before the execu-
tive board in January until the convention was out of the way in
July, 6 months later.
The Chairman. Can you answer it? Did you ask for and re-
ceive a hearing? Can you answer that question "Yes" or "No"?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I received a hearing in October after a January
request for a meeting.
The Chairman. You made the request and received — ^you made the
request in January and received the hearing in October ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. In October, because in the July thing I was leaving
the hospital the day immediately prior to the telegram that told me
I was to be there.
The Chairman. Now there are two questions together :
Did you appear at that hearing and make the following statement,
among others :
But I says, "Russ, you got something coming to you for a long time", I says,
"and I am going to give it to you." And I took my glasses off and walked
back to his desk and laid them on his desk and we started at it.
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. To take something out of context like
that without the following statement or the prior statement, I think
is a very unfair thing.
The Chairman. Iwill let you explain the context of it.
Mr. Motsinger. All right, sir.
You have to involve innocent people in this testimony that I didn't
want to do, but I have letters here to substantiate, if necessary.
The good people down there had informed me upon my arrival at
the office that day that ^Vhite had did a job with Mooney on me, and
that, "They are going to get you away from this place down here." I
was expecting that, because of my reports. Mooney had be^n down
there. I was handed this letter, and told what had transpired in the
past hour or so.
Mr. White called me, and we were in the office. There was only a
partition between us and an open door away around. When I went
in, he got up and he says, "Well, I am going to ship you out of here."
I had already been warned of that. I said, "Just a minute, Russ.
Wliy?"
I believe his words were, "Well, that is it. I am shipping you to
AUentown."
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20173
I told him, "Kuss, I don't mind going to Allentown or anyplace
else. I have no particular place I am in love with as long as I am
away from my home. But I want to know something. Why are you
continuing to do this? You are the one who taught me the rules in
Elyria, Ohio, about the last man in, first man out, and now there are
four or five of the Toledo gang that has come in since I have been
here, and if there is a job to do in Allentown, why are you sending me
down?"
We were in hot words. He jumped up at the desk and he says
words that I mentioned before, "You so-and-so, you are going down
there and if you don't," he said words to the effect that "You will be
fired."
Well, he had no authority to make such a statement as that, inas-
much as he was merely an international representative on the staff,
but classified as leader that he made it.
I started to turn around and go out of the office, and I said to liim,
"Why don't you take a knife, Russ, and stick it in my back? Haven't
you even got guts enough to do that ?"
He made some other statements, and got up as if he was coming
around, and I took my glasses off and laid them down, and I said,
"If that is what you want, that is what we will have."
I said, "You have had something coming to you for 2 years for
what you did to me, I believe, and my family,"
Russ was swinging at me and I was swinging at Russ.
The Chairman. All right, you had a fight, didn't you?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. That is riglit. Two people. It takes two, Sen-
ator.
The Chairman. It what ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. It takes two to have a fight. I wasn't swinging
at myself. We were fighting, that's all.
The Chairman. That is all you were asked, if you didn't have a
fight.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I was asked if I did strike Russ White. There is
a difference. Let's turn it around : Did he strike me ? I got some
knots, too.
The Chairman. The question was if you made the statement, "And
I took my glasses off, walked back to his desk, laid them on his desk,
and we started at it."
Mr. Moi^siNGER. That is exactly right. I wouldn't deny that testi-
mony.
The Chairman. The only thing I am trying to do is to give you
every courtesy in the world. I ask you a question and we take a long,
long time to answer it. I don't want to cut off your answers, but
can't we expedite it ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Mr. Chairman, if I would answer the question in
the way it was phrased to me, what would be your opinion ? Did I
strike Russ White ? What does that sound like ?
The Chairman. It sounds like you hit him, to me.
Mr. Motsinger. That is right. But where would be my part of
the testimony that says he popped me ?
The Chairman. When you say, "We started at it," I suppose the
"we" meant the two of you.
20174 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. MoTsiNGER. What you detemiined there was the general opin-
ion of every representative on the UAW staff.
The Chairman. All you had do was to say, "Yes, we started at
it."
I will ask you a few more questions. I will say that I don't want
to deprive you of answering, but we can stay here for a long time if
you are going to make long and unnecessary replies.
In that same statement, did you anywhere refer to any complaints
you had about payments to the flower fund or the PAC fund ? That
is at the hearing before the executive board.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. That hearing was before the 25-member executive
board of the UAW, and every member of the 25-member board of
the UAW obviously is either recipients or paying into the flower
fund, and it is composed of nothmg but union people in the entire
room.
I can say this: No, I didn't get up and protest the flower fund.
The Chairman. All right. Can't you answer "No" and then say
"because they were all paying into the flower f mid" ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. But I didn't protest it to the executive
board of paying into the fund, no. I think that is on the record
already, that I didn't protest it to the UAW hierarchy.
The Chairman. Have you testified that you never had a chance to
talk to Mr. Gosser?
Mr. Motsinger. Pardon ?
The Chairman. Did you testify that you never had a chance to talk
to Mr. Gosser?
Mr. Motsinger. At the executive board meeting, did I testify there?
Let's see. Let me get this straight in my mind.
The Chairman. I just asked you : Have you testified that you never
had a chance to talk to Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir ; but I would like to know the time, because
as I have already indicated in the record I sent Gosser a telegram
wanting to talk to him and was denied it.
The Chairman. Let us say that you have never had a chance to
talk to him about the flower fund or the PAC funds at that time, at the
time you were having this hearing.
Mr. Motsinger. Why, no, I didn't. The flower fund and the PAC
fund was not a jisoint of discussion pertaining to my removal from the
staff' at no time. That is in the record.
The Chairman. What they are trying to determine is whether you
ever complained about the PAC and the flower fund. Did you ever
complain to Gosser or the board about the PAC and the flower fund,
and your having to pay money into it ? That is the substance of it.
Did you ever make any complaint about it?
Mr. Motsinger. Senator McClellan, I believe that is already cov-
ered in the record that I didn't complain to my immediate superiors
about that, in the form of making a specific issue of that. It is possi-
ble that I might have mentioned it at some time that I don't recall.
I don't intend to perjure myself by saying that I didn't. I don't think
there would be a record of it if I had, but I am not going to sit here
and perjure myself.
I tried to indicate yesterday with a very flat statement, to the best
of my knowledge, I never protested to Walter Keuther, Emil Mazey,
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20175
or Dick Gosser directly against paying to the flower fund or the PAC.
I don't know how I can make a statement plainer than that is.
If that is what the man is trying to develop in my testimony, that
was yesterday, he could have rubbed that out and saved time.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, could I ask one brief question that I
believe can be answered in one word ?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Motsinger, what is the best estimate that you
can make about how many minutes was allowed for your presentation
of your case to the executive board ?
Mr. Motsinger. I can't truthfully answer that for the simple reason
when I was called in they knew what it pertained to, the length it
would have to be gone into, but at the opening, Mr. Eeuther went in
and said :
You know why we are assembled in Detroit, and we are in the middle of the
first guaranteed annual wage. These people are all here, we have very impor-
tant business, but we have agreed that we will let you discuss the thing.
The record will show that I did not want to place my case in
jeopardy. Were I not to be allowed to go into wliat happened on the
UAW staff since my going on to the staff and leaving it? They
bandied arouncl and said, "Well, well, try it, you have about 15 or 18
minutes, or something like that."
I don't know what it was the length of time consumed there. The
record would show that. I would have to trust it as much as I would
any other part of the record.
The Chairman. I am not going to ask all of these questions, but
here are two I w^ill ask : One of them reads this way : You complain
about the UAW organizing efforts. Did you ever succeed in organiz-
ing a plant anywhere at any time ?
Did you, yourself, ever succeed in organizing a plant anywhere at
any time ?
Mr. Motsinger. I wasn't never assigned to a plant until its comple-
tion. I was taken out of Elyria, Ohio, after 4 months, and they drug
on and spent the money of the UAW until the Government called
them in Cleveland and told them, "Quit kidding. Don't tell us one of
your representatives is up at Michigan with his cottage with enough
cards to make up a petition for an election."
The Chairman. Your answer is that you were never assigned to
organize a plant?
Mr. Motsinger. I was assigned to organize a plant, but I was never
on one that was won wliile I was there.
I wil] put it that way.
(At this point Senator Church withdrew from the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Wliat you are saying is that while you were
assigned to organize a plant or plants, you were not successful in
getting them organized or they were not yet organized at the time
you left them ?
Mr. Motsinger. I was not successful, but you will liave to put it
this way : The UAW was not successful in organizing any of those
plants.
The Chairman. Let's say you, the UAW, and all efforts being madft
up to the time you left, had not been successful.
20176 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, MoTsiNGER. No, sir ; I will be very glad to state that.
The Chairman. This, I think, you would want to correct, if you
overlooked something yesterday.
Yesterday you testified regarding your pay after you became a
representative — is that what you call them — international represent-
ative ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, The question here is : Isn't it a fact that you also
received $49 as an expense allowance ?
I assume that is in addition to the $140 that you have already testi-
iield to ; would that be correct ?
Mr, MoTSiNGER. Forty-nine dollars in what form ?
The Chairman. As an expense allowance.
Mr. MOTSINGER. No.
Wait just a minute. On any weekly expense or anything like that?
You are in a field where I am honest with you. I know nothing about
that.
The Chairman. I don't know either. I am asking you. You
would know whether you received it or not.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Well, if you will bear with me, I am only trying
to determine what the gentleman behind me is trying to develop.
The Chairman. Let me put it this way to you : You testified yester-
day that you got $115 salary, I believe, after you got to be international
representative, some 2 or 3 months ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Am I connect?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Then you said in addition to that you got $25 car
allowance.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. In-town car allowance, for your car, whether you
used or set it in a garage.
The Chairman. All right, you got it.
The question, then, would be : Did you in addition to that get $49
a week as an expense allowance ?
Mr. JNIoTsiNCJER. No; you got your expenses at the hotel as pre-
scribed by the constitution. If your hot«l in Elyria, Ohio, was $140 a
month, that is what they paid, your hotel bill, by the constitution,
when you were taken away from your home.
The Chairman. Let's say while you are at home.
I can appreciate when you go on and are assigned to another town,
you had to stay in a hotel, maybe they paid your hotel expense in addi-
tion to the ordinai-y remuneration that you got including expenses;
would that be true ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER, Yes; they paid your expenses. I will put it this
way : Some of us.
The Chairman. But when you were home and drawing $115 a week
and $25 for car expense, did you also draw, in addition to that, when
you were at home, $49 a week as an expense allowance ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. I have my expense sheets here, sir, that are made
out by the UAW.
The Chairman. Can you answer whether you did or did not ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I am trying to determine exactly what I drawed
from tlie UAW while 1 was on their stati". On expenses, your intown
car allowance was $25 a week, and expenses up to and including certain
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20177
amounts. I wish the gentleman would help us by telling me how
that is listed.
The Chairman. You are testifying. You got the money or you
didn't get it. The question is proper.
I just want to try to move along. The question is proper.
If you got $39 a month additional expense account, it seems to me
you would know.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. As I have told you here before, the intown ex-
penses for your car, your hotel expenses, for whatever the actual ex-
pense was, and that varied from city to city.
The Chairman. While you are looking, the Chair will make the ob-
servation that I was requested to ask the witness some 21 questions. I
think I have asked him about four or five of them, and I think those are
sufficient to generally cover it. I will not ask all of them, unless there
is objection on the part of some other member of the committee.
Senator Mundt. No objection to your asking them, and no objec-
tion to your not asking them.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Sir, here are the expense sheets of the UAW that
were handed to me to be sure that I made them out proper at the time of
my indoctrination speech by Mr. Madrzykowski, and I believe at the
same time the flower fund because it was pointed out not to have to be
reminded about that. This is in Mr. Madrzykowski's handwriting. I
have another one given to me over in Elyria, by a different party, for
the same period.
The Chairman. Mr. Motsinger, you say you have sheets there.
Would you answer as to whether you got $49 a week in addition to the
$115 and the $25? Did you get $49 a week in addition to that general
expense allowance?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, would it help to clarify if we would
specify whether there was an expense allowance in addition to the
actual expense accrued that he had to bill for ?
The Chairman. I think the witness would be able to answer. If he
cannot, we will ti*y to devise some other means to supply the informa-
tion for the record. I assume the UAW has a record of it, and that
can be supplied. But the question was directed to this witness.
Mr. Motsinger. Here is all the money that I know that I draw, and
1 am trying to explain this. On July 25, and this was the same way
with all weeks that I was on the staff, tliis is your expense, as they have
it, $4 a day for a hotel was what I turned in. That is the way it was
wrote down here.
The Chairman. What month is that, or what week ?
Mr. Motsinger. July 25, 1953. I think that is the week I was as-
signed to Elyria, Ohio.
The Chairman. How long were you an international representa-
tive and drawing $115 a week? How long did you serve in that
capacity ?
Mr. Motsinger. From the time my wages was brought to 115, about
3 or 4 months after I went on the staff, until I was removed from
the staff.
The Chairman. That doesn't tell me whether it was 2 weeks or
2 years.
Mr. Motsinger. I would say close to 20 months, a little over a year
and a half, I would say.
20178 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. That would be between 80 and 90 weeks, at 20
months. You would know whether you were allowed during that
period of time $49 a week expense allowance m addition to your $115
salary and your $25 car expense.
Mr. MoTsiNGER. No; not in the sense of the way they are talking
about here. I was allowed this: My house rent was paid in Canton,
Ohio, $85 a month.
The Chairman, Do you mean your house rent was paid in addition
to your salary ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Yes, sir ; in Canton, Ohio.
The Chairman. Then you got more than $49 a week.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Just a minute. In Philadelphia, the house expense
there, I think, was $100 a month for rent, for me and my family, be-
cause they had to move me and my family wherever they took me.
That was paid by the UAW international. To me it seems as
though
The Chairman. Was that in addition, Mr. Motsinger, to your salary
and the $25 ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir; it certainly is. It is prescribed in the
constitution by the UAW that any man that is removed from his
home and forced to live in these communities away from his home
shall be paid his expense.
Would you ask these people if that is what they are talking about?
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: When you are moved to
another city and you were drawing $115 salary still — were you — per
week] ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes.
The Chairman. Including your $25 per- week-car allowance ?
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And also they paid your house rent, whatever it
was, $60 or $100 a month ; is that correct ?
Mr. Motsinger. $85 in Canton, Ohio, I believe was the exact figure.
The Chairman. Well, whatever it was, they paid your house rent.
Mr. Motsinger. That is right.
The Chairman. Did they, in addition to that, during that 20-month
time, provide you $49 a month other expenses, general expenses, in
addition to those items ? That is what they wanted me to ask you.
I can tell that from their expressions. I think it is in line with your
testimony.
Mr. Motsinger. Senator McClellan, you are talking about something
that I haven't paid any attention to, because I never thought anything
about it, except the house rent and the way they paid it. If you can
pass that, I will try to dig up all my expense sheets tliat I can find,
because I fear that there is a gimmick somewhere in here that I don't
know anything about.
Senator Mundt. Would this be helpful, Mr. Chairman, and I do
not know what the point of it is, but it may be that the UAW alleges,
or Mr. liauh believes, tliat he was paid some special allowance other
than the other international representatives. If not, if he was paid
the same, Mr. Rauh should know what the figures are, and he can put
them into tlie record. He has been sworn.
The Chairman. The witness has testified, he is under oath, he is the
one that got the money, and it is a perfectly proper question to ask
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20179
the witness, since he testified he was i:)aid, and this job was a coveted
position and amounted to a promotion when he got it.
If the witness cannot answer, I will permit, if it is desired, to have
testimony as to what he received. I want to give him the opportu-
nity, if he can, to remember and testify. If he cannot remeniber, if
he is not sure, or does not know, we will ask Mr. Eauh the question.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Let me help you, sir ; let me help, if I can.
This is $7-a-day daily allowance.
(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. Well, what is 7 times 7 ?
Mr. MoTsiNGER. Let me finish this, because I want to be sure that
you gentlemen are convinced if I have omitted anything in the expense
account from the UAW, I am trying to bring it out here that I didn't
know what he was talking about.
It was $7 a day daily allowance after you were in a town so long.
When you first went into that town, for the first 30 days, it was $12 a
day for the first 30 days.
The Chairman. So he used the minimum.
Mr. MoTSiNGER. For the first 30 days, that is what you were allowed.
The Chairman. $12 a day ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Yes.
The Chairman. And thereafter $9 a day ?
Mr. MoTSiNGER. Pardon ?
The Chairman. Thereafter how much ?
Mr. Motsinger. $7 a day.
The Chairman. $7 a day ^
Mr. Motsinger. Yes, sir. Unless you were one of the fortunates
who could be transferred fast enough every 30 days to keep you at the
maximum.
The Chairman. So you did get the minimum of $7 a day, which
would be $49 a week ; is that right ?
Mr. Motsinger. I will say yes.
The Chairman. O.K. I will not ask any further questions. I
think we have covered it sufficiently.
Is there anything else ?
Senator Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I think we should tell the witness
what we have told preceding witnesses. I do not know that this is a
conceivable occurrence, but he has testified against some officials of
the UAW and against some of the UAW practices. Further testi-
mony will verify the validity of that.
I do think that you should tell him that if reprisals are taken against
him, he should report back to the committee and be given what pro-
tection the committee can give, because he has brought forward evi-
dence which probably will not ingratiate him with any UAW officials.
Mr. IIauh. I can assure Senator Mundt that there will be none.
Senator Mundt. I am not sure that there will be, and I am not sure
that your assurance is valid on that point.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Do you have any apprehensions of personal reprisals or actions
against you in any way, Mr. Motsinger ?
Mr. Motsinger. Do I have any ?
The Chairman. Yes, that any such will be imposed or attempted ?
Mr. Motsinger. By the union ?
36751— 60— pt. 58 18
20180 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. By the union or any representative thereof, any
thug, hoodlum, gangster, murderer— anybody, by reason of your
testimony ? , . t ^ x • i
Mr. MoTSiNGER. I will phrase my answer this way : i am not atraicl
of any physical violence that will result from my testimony down here,
but I am really afraid of the harassment that will contmue through
my telephone, and my wife, people calling there to harass us, such as
they have even since 1 was here last week. That will continue.
I already have reports from the plant, before I came back, that there
is a certain element in the plant who insists that I was to run for
president in that plant, and I have told them that I would have no
part of a union office. But they have insisted for a year and a halt
that I did. But I was told that the current thing m the plant was :
"Now even if they was to put Motsinger in, he says the UAW Interna-
tional wouldn't even represent us out here because he is testifying be-
fore a Senate committee against the unions."
That is the only type of smear that I am afraid of.
The Chairman. I do not know about smears.
Mr. Motsinger. I am not afraid of physical violence.
The Chairman. We will put you under the injunction that if you
get molested, threatened, intimidated, coerced, if any attempt at
retaliation is made against you according to your best judgment by
reason of your testimony here, please report it promptly and im-
mediately to the committee.
Mr. Motsinger. I will, sir. .
The Chairman. If the committee can ascertain that such an at-
tempt has really been made, I have said before, and I still think, the
Senate has jurisdiction to cite for contempt anyone who in any way
undertakes by threats or violence or any other improper ways to
intimidate a witness who testifies here, I think such action would be
in contempt of the U.S. Senate.
Are there any further questions ?
You report if any such thing occurs. Will you do that ?
Mr. Motsinger. I certainly will.
The Chairman. You will remain under your present subpena, sub-
ject to being recalled if and when the committee may desire further
testimony from you, upon reasonable notice being given to you and
without your being resubpenaed ; will you agree to that?
Mr. Motsinger. Definitely, it is agreed.
The Chairman. If there are no other questions, the witness is
excused.
Thank you, sir.
Call the next witness.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Cyrus Martin.
The Chairman. May I ask if we can get through with the next
witness quickly ?
Senator Curtis. We will do our very best, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Will you be sworn, please?
You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Martin. I do.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20181
TESTIMONY OF CYRUS MARTIN
The Chairman. State your name, place of residence, and your
business or occupation.
Mr, Martin. My name is Cyrus Martin, better known as Toots
Martin to the general public.
The Chairman. Better known as what ?
Mr. Martin. Toots Martin. I reside at 1120 Dean Road, Temper-
ance, Mich. Formerly I lived in Toledo, Ohio. My present occu-
pation is a janitor to our parish church, the Lady of Mount Carmel,
in Temperance, Mich. I work there 2 days a week.
The Chairman. Do you waive counsel ?
Mr. Martin. I sure do, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right. Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Martin, were you at one time a member of
theUAW?
(At this point Senator Mundt withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. Martin. I sure was, Mr. Senator. I joined the UAW in 1934.
I was a charter member of 8384, Toledo, Ohio. In fact, I was in the
union before Dick Gosser or Walter Reuther. The UAW was born
in the city of Toledo.
Senator Curtis. About how many years or until what time did you
continue to be a member? About what year did your membership
terminate or has it terminated ?
Mr. Martin. My membership terminated when I was expelled in
1951. I think that is right.
I would like to state for this committee that in regards to the dates
and days, all my data and records have been stolen from my car, and
I might be a little hazy in regards to that.
(At this point Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. But from approximately 19'34 to 1951 you were a
member of the union ?
Mr. Martin. That is for sure.
Senator Curtis. Did you hold any offices in a local union ?
Mr. Martin. I was an executive board member of local 12. I was
a business agent of local 12, and I became an international represen-
tative of the UAW.
Senator Curtis. About when did you become an international rep-
resentative? What year? I am mindful that you do not have your
records.
Mr. Martin. When I became an international representative of the
UAW, I think that was in the year of 1947 or 1948. But prior to that
I was a representative of local 12.
(At this point Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. You were an international representative assigned
to local 12?
Mr. Martin. I was international representative assigned to region
2-B, which is Toledo, Ohio, and vicinity.
Senator ( .urtis. That is under Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Martin. At that time it was under Mr. Gosser. He became
regional director. That is when I went on the international. A short
time after he was regional director, I went on the staff of Mr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. What plant did you work in prior to becoming a
full-time union representative?
20182 IMPROPER ACTrviTIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr, Martin. I worked in the Willys- Overland-
The Chairman. The Chair is very sorry to interrupt, but we are
having a rollcall vote in the Senate. We will have to recess for that.
I think it would be hardly worth while to try to come back. You
and all other witnesses will be back next Wednesday afternoon at 2
o'clock. We will resume at that time.
(Members of the committee present at the time of the recess : Sena-
tors McClellan, Ervin, Goldwater, and Curtis.)
(Whereupon, at 12 :15 p.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene at
2 p.m., Wednesday, August 26, 1959.)
INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE
LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 8, 1959
cj ^ U.S. Senate,
Select Commhtee on Improper Activities
IN THE Labor or Management Field,
rp, , , . 'Wa^hington.D.C.
liie select committee met at 11 am niirminnf fn «;o,.of^ \> i
prfsiding. McClellan (chairman of the select committee)
Ka^rr MnnT^' ^"""Z^' ^^gClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Senator
I ^ ^^indt. Republican, South Dakota: Senator John F Kpn
iiedy, Democrat, Massachusetts; Senator Ba^ry Goldwater R^^^^
can Arizona; Senator Carl T. Curtis, RepubficairNeCska
Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; P. Kenneth 6'Don
nell, assistant counsel; Paul J. Tierney, assistant counsel Paid F
?Mpmb;t nV ;?' "7^f '^^^''''•' ^"^^ ^- ^^^^^' chief clerk.
(Members of the select committee present at the convenino- of thp
session : Senators McClellan, Mundt, Ind Curtis ) ""'"^ ""^ ^^'^
'ru 5<?^^^^^^^- The committee will be in order.
Ihe Chair wishes to make this observation : I do not know how much
^ll%lf7%^^f- T\^^°^'^^- W^ h^^^ ^ parliamentarrritiSi ?
the Senate that is liable at any time to compel us to recis and report
we cL'^nYrCh^r^w'n'f"' "l^""''; ^? '^" ^'^^^ suc?„Ts'a
Ave can, and the Chair wdl further state that it is his purpose Insofar
I dou? tT ^? '^^^'^^^^ ^^'^'^ ^^^'^^^^^« t° ^ conclus^on^ ''
to ascertahrabouM.nw"^ '"'''"^ witnesses there are and I would like
a?ran?J^twL^^^^^^^ ^^i'^.f^^ «« that we can kind of
^pw. n y- ^^^^ through now until we can get through with it
Senator Curtis, can you give me any idea ? ^
idenHfied'h?rjf- ^''- ,^^ i^lp^^ started with Mr. Martin. I just
laen titled him when we adjourned last time "'
Following that we will have Mr. Randolph Gray and Mr Tohn
fote "The'rarJ' '' "^" T^ '^^ '' l'^'^^'^ beTwoTn and" estff^
logemei. ihere are a considerable number of exhibits
Following that we have Mr. Duckworth or Mr. Billheimer and
Mrs^Gray, and Mr Davidow perhaps will be called '''''^'^™^^' '^^^
the nm?b"err^'"- ^^'"' ''''' "^^^^^'^^^^ ^-' -i^-^^-^' ^^nd is that about
20183
20184 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Now we had someone who was apparently the
trustee of the flower fund.
Senator Curtis. That isMr. BaUard.
The Chairman. All right, I just wanted to be sure that we had
everybody.
Senator Curtis. Will Mr. Martin resume the stand i
The Chairman. We will hear Mr. Rauh for just one moment.
All right, Mr. Rauh. ^ ^ ^.
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Chairman, on Friday about 6:?)0 I delivered per-
sonally a letter to you, and this morning I delivered copies to Senators
Mundt and Curtis. I will not attempt to even summarize the letter,
but it does demonstrate, it seems to me, beyond peradventure of doubt,
that the witness seat here, Mr. diairman, was used as a vehicle ot
perjury by both Mr. S])eidell and Mr. Motsinger.
Senator Curtis. I object to that. i i /^, • ■
The Chairman. You don't have to object, and the Chair is not
o-oing to tolerate those statements. They may testify to something
that you think is in error or untrue or false. I am not going to tol-
erate that sort of comment. The Chair recognizes that you handed
him a letter, and I am going to file the letter as an exhibit for ref-
erence of the committee.^
You also handed me a number of affidavits. I do not recall the
number, some five or six perhaps. The Chair will examine these
affidavits or have a member of the stall' examine them, and as they are
found to be pertinent to testimony that has been received the Chair
will then dispose of them by making them either a ])art of the record
or exhibits thereto.
Now, I say to you that any witness or any other individual has a
right to repudiate any testimony that he thinks is derogatory to him
by simply making an affidavit, if he desires to do so, and submitting
it to the committee for the committee's judgment and determination
and disposition to be made of it. He himself has the right to request
to heard personally, but since you have elected to submit the affidavits,
I will examine tlieni with a view of letting them be made a part of the
record or at least exhibits thereto for reference.
Mr. Rauh. My request about the letter is not that it be made an
exhibit. It is that it be typed into the record at this point.
The Chairman. The Chair has made his ruling.
Is there any objection to the ruling of the Chair ?
Senator Mundt. I support it. In the first place, I have not read
the letter, but it is full of factual errors.
Mr. Rauh. I would like to go into those.
The Chairman. We are not going to have an argument about that.
We are going to take testimony, and I am going to proceed with these
hearings, gentlemen. Make no mistake about that.
Now, we received the letter, and I am willing to make an exhibit
of it so that all who read the record may know the questions raised
bv it, and the statements made in it.
■ The affidavits are proof, and the letter is simply argument.
Mr. Rauh. I take it, sir, that we are then, the United Automobile
Workers, being denied the right to have our case printed along with
the case that Senator Curtis is making. The prosecutor can put it in,
eSee p. 20195.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20185
but I may not defend, and I am asking to have this printed in with
^^^yest of the hearings as the case of the United Automobile Workers
• 1 f "^>iKMAN. The Chair heard your request, and tlie Chair is not
m the habit of admitting letters in the record as unsworn testimony
Mr. Rauh. May I then request of the Chair when we, the United
Automobile Workers, will have our day in court?
The Chairman. Just a moment. You are a lawyer, and you know
1 can t hear the witnesses all at once ; don't you ?
Mr. Rauii. No, sir; I don't.
The Chairman. You don't ?
Mr. Rauh. No.
The Chairman. Well, you are simpler than I thought you were. I
can't hear all of them at one time.
^i^^r ^^^"- Pw^iting our case into the transcript at this point, after
the Motsmger testimony, is the only fair way to present it, sir.
1 he Chairman. The Chair made its ruling, and I am sorry
Proceed. Call your first witness.
(Pursuant to a later ruling of the Chair,i the affidavits were ordered
inserted m the record at this point. The affidavits referred to follow :)
State of Michigan
Before Douglas O. Froelich, certified court reporter and notary public quali-
fied to administer oaths, for the county of Oceana uuunc, quaii
AFFIDAVIT OF RUSSELL WHITE, MADE BEFORE DOUGLASS O. FROELICH AND WITNESSED
BY^ROBERT LIBNEB ON THE 25TH DAY OF AUGUST, A.D. 1959, IN OCEANA COUNTY,
?' ^V.^TV Wliite. being duly sworn, do hereby depose and say as follows :
rlonpiSn- -V VT T^' "*?" ^^ ^^'"'■^ ""^ "^^^ ^"^ ^^^^ a« ^y permanent resi-
w. . . ^n T^*^V^''*^°"''' Lansing, xMich. That since the 16th of June 1959 I have
been totally and completely disabled by virtue of a coronary condition, which at-
iZl v!' •?'?•'* .*?" ^^"^ aforementioned date in Lansing, Mich., resulting in 19
dajs hospitalization at the Lansing General Hospital and 14 davs of complete
Pu(mnS''° ""^ residence, all under the advice and prescription of Dr!
On the further advice and prescription of Dr. Pudliner, I at the present time
am staying at a cottage approximately 5 miles northwest of the village of Hes-
peria^ in the county of Oceana, adjacent to Butternut Lake. I am also f dvfse<i bv
?^' ^ , Tl ■^''. ^"^i™: '■'"'^ ^ ^'''^*' ^^ t« remain out of doors in the hot sun
for extended periods of time and am unable to make a trip to Washington fo?
b'y^^nXr^^clTS^S^sSr ''''''' ^^^ ^^"^'^ ^^^^^ Coinmittee.^chaired
nuL^"' ""' '""'>"'"» ''^ '^ >>"<!* summary ot my work history with especial
affltraS.,"sinS\hr;ea?S""^ '^ '""""=""" """ "■" "^'^^ »"" »'"- ^"'™
mo\i;fSri'nSl?"M;;^'' '- '''' "' «" ""•"■""""^ "■"■■"«• '" ^^' Oids-
mJ,;;/eS^JaTrvM^n*?hrttSfuSif S'' "•"'" """ ""--'-'-'^ «■«'»
<.on'm.i'l""";„',hl? """■'?.'' '," " l'""'"'"' oi "Iw preslaeilt of the Michigan CIO
JifH \>. ?"' cni'iicity I i»rfoniied work activities encompassing geosranh"
Pom'icnV A T'"'''..**'""'. "' Mi-^^l-igan. I also, in (his cnpaoity, sefvid on the
.See p. 20195.
h
20186 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
the territories ,.£ Lansing, Flint F»^on Owoso an^^^^^^^^ „^^^^^ ,„^
United Automobile Workers i^.th^Pt^^^f ^^f/^l^.^u' f,-^^j;^le
Sale S'rreoutm m^ auarS^rTer^Lg S months, I was replaced by
3:E9:i?^^a^caS?™esr\rsrtr^i^^s^iX
3SSHIS^LSu^^^o^rsss-r.SaS^
since that time transcript of the testimony given before the Senate
Labor Committee last^ week but I understand that Mr. J. F Motsinger a
fei^er asSate and acquaintance of mine, has made certain statements and
S^n certain testimony concerning things that I was supposed to ^^ave done and
£15 in Ms presence. My comments on Mr. Motsinger's statements are as fol-
^T«) On information and belief, I understand that Mr. Motsinger testified
that I instructed him to send in false reports concerning his organization activi-
ties to Mr Richard Gosser, vice president of the UAW. This testimony, if given,
£ comnletefy false and in fact, Mr. Motsinger was required to send in reports
of hiS^or^mLat^Snal activities once each week and these reports were always to
e factual as to the precise work activities he had performed during ea^'l^/eek
in ouestfon At no time did I instruct Mr. Motsinger to "beef up,' falsify, or
exa^en tehifLpoits, nor at any time did I request Mr. Motsinger to prepare
its leports so that they would conform with the reports I was required to file
'"The^semUng m of false reports exaggerating our organizational activitie^ or
in anv wav distoring the truth of our efforts in attempting to organize workers,
woiM^e Impossible inasmuch as Mr. Gosser's staff was personally and con-
Unuouslv in touch with the plants in which we were performing organiza lon^
actSs and our activities were under continuous and routine surveillance
Mr Motlinger was verv lax about getting on his weekly reports as required and
I did have to prod him from time to time to see to it that a report was filed
if) On information and belief, I further understand that I was quoted by
Mr Motsinger as having instructed him as follows: "Your job is to organize the
people and what vou tell them and what you have to do is to organize them
ind S it." This statement is completely incorrect since it was our unvarying
i)ractice never to make claims or promises to prospective members that we did
iot in good faith attempt to carry forward if our organizational activities were
JiiccSsSl We made it our practice to promise only that the union, if suc-
cessful in organizing a given plant, would do its very best to ff^^^^^J^f ^JjJ^^
benefits and contract provisions that we were able to actually effect m other
localities. We never attached any guarantees to our statements or claims to
prospective union members and indicated only what had been accomplished m
other areas where organization was successful in comparable type Plants.
We further made it our practice to advise prospective members that the actual
negotiations for their union would have to be carried out not by the organizers^
hut by the local bargaining connnitteo of the newly formed membership with the
assistanceanddirectionof the UAW regional staff office. ...
Due to Mr. Motsinger's conduct, with which we became familiaf in previous
months we in fact delegated to him those jobs in connection with organizing
wherein he would have the least possible personal connection with prospective
union members in new plants and in fact delegated to him such ministerial ac-
tivities as passing out handbills and running routine errands. ..-^^^^
(c) On information and belief, it is my understanding that Mr Motsinger
testified that when I was up for confirmation before the Michigan State Senate
committee in connection with my recent appointment by Governor Williams as
commissioner of labor, that I withheld information before the Michigan Senate
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20187
as to my previous union activities and posts held witli the union. One of the
first things I did, in fact, when I was appointed by Governor Williams as com-
missioner of labor, realizing I required confirmation by the Senate, was to
distribute to the local daily newspapers in Lansing and also to the senate com-
mittee considering my confirmation, a complete list of all the union activities and
posts I had held and performed in the past.
Moreover, when interrogated by individual senate committee members, I was
requested to detail all my activities and union posts held from the most recent to
the oldest post or connection I had with the UAW, and I made full and complete
disclosure at that time of all the various posts listed under section numbered II,
on pages 1 and 2 of this affidavit.
id) On information and belief, I understand that Mr. Motsinger further testi-
fied that in January of 1955, he had a fist fight with me, as a result of which I
"put some lumps on his head." The foregoing statement by Mr. Motsinger is
incorrect and the truth of what happened is as follows : Approximately in Janu-
ary of 1955, I had recently delegated to Mr. Motsinger an organizational assign-
ment of a plant in Allentown, Pa.
Mr. Motsinger was very disturbed about being given this assignment because
it would require his commuting day to day from Philadelphia to Allentown,
which was approximately 1 hour's drive. Without provocation, after being told
he would have to perform that assignment, he struck me in the area of my left
eye, after which I raised my arms to defend myself only and that ended the
aggressive acts on the part of Mr. Motsinger.
Immediately following this incident, which I reported to Mr. Gosser in Detroit,
Mr. Motsinger was relieved of all further association and duties with my staff
and with the UAW.
Further the deponent sayeth not.
Russell White.
Subscribed and sworn to before me, Douglas O. Froelieh, notary public in and
for the county of Oceana, State of Michigan, on this 25th day of August, A.D.
1950.
Douglas O. Froelich,
Notary Puhlic, Oceana County.
My commission expires June 25, 1961.
Dated August 25, 1959.
Witnessed :
Robert Libner.
Affidavit
State of Michigan
County of Wayne, ss:
I, Kenneth Bannon, being duly sworn depose and say that :
(1) I am, and for some 12 years have been, the director of the Ford depart-
ment of the international union, UAW.
(2) I understand that one J. F. Motsinger in recent testimony before a U.S.
Senate committee has alleged that it was common knowledge among the entire
staff of the international union, UAW, and more particularly, the staff of the
Ford department of said union that a strike which occurred in the Ford Motor
Co. plant in Canton, Ohio, in 1953 was .caused by the international union in
order to bring collective pressure on the Ford Motor Co.
(3) There is no truth in any such statement that Motsinger may have made.
(4) The 1953 strike in Canton commenced because of a substantial number
of grievances involving production standards and health and safety matters,
all strikable grievances under the contract then existing between the Ford Motor
Co. and the Union, had accumulated over a period of some 4 or 5 years since
the opening of its plant, and in the settlement of some 4 or 5 years reached on
this accumulation of grievances, most of which agreement is still reflected in
the local working conditions currently existing at the Canton plant at the Ford
Motor Co.
Further, deponent sayeth not.
Kenneth Bannon.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 26th day of August 1959.
[seal] ,
Notary PuMic, Wayne County, Mich.
My commission expires May 23, 1960.
20188 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Affidavit
State of Michigan
County of Wayne, ss:
I, Dewey Me(ihee, being duly sworn do depose and say that :
(1) My residence is 8011 Hough Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio, though I am tem-
porarily living at 110 East Hancock Street, Detroit, Mich.
(2) I am currently employed at the Ford Motor Co., River Rouge plant,
and I am an active member of local 600, having recently been elected to the
general council of that local, and have been a member of local 600 since it first
came into existence in 1941, having been active in the initial organization of
the Ford Motor Co.
(3) I was an international representative for about 6 months in 1947, and
was reappointed as an international rein-esentative in 1949 and served continu-
ously in such capacity until 19r>S with the exception of about a l.l-month period
in 19r)0 and 1951 when I neglected to pay my regular monthly dues to local 600.
and. becoming delinquent. I was no longer eligible to serve as an international
representative until I had reestablished my continuous good standing member-
ship in local 600 and the international union for a continuous period of at least
1 year, which I did, prior to my reappointment to the staff of the international
union in May 1951.
4. Following my layoff from the international union staff in 1959 resulting from
an austerity program by the international union, I resumed my employment in
the Ford Motor Co. Rouge Plant which employment has continued to date.
5. As an international representative, in the years 1953 and 1954, I was as-
signed to the international union's competitive shop department in the Cleveland
area.
6. During my entire service as an international representative, I made, will-
ingly and voluntarily, contributions to an international union flower fund for
the purpose of assisting union memliers nominated by my caucus for international
offices in their campaigns for election to those offices by the international union
conventions.
7. At various times while working for the Ford INIotor Co. at the Rouge plant
and while serving as an international representative, I made willingly and vol-
untarily, contributions to a local union flower fund for a similar puriK)se in con-
nection with candidates for local union elective oflSces nominated by my local
union caucus.
8. At no time did anyone ever threaten, coerce, intimidate, or otherwise
pressure me with regard to these flower fund contributions at either level.
9. I have read the pages of the transcript of testimony before the U.S. Senate
Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or ^Management Field
for August 21, 1959, insofar as that testimony involved me (pp. 559-,571) and do
hereby state and swear that the statements made therein concerning me, and
particularly the statements to the effect that Mr. Walter Madrzykowski or Mr.
Wesley Schultz. or both of them, had met with me in Cleveland. Oliio (in the
basement of the regional office or any other place) to threaten or in any way
talk to me about my contributions to an international union flower fund
are untrue and do not reflect, directly or indirectly, any situation of which I
have any recollection concerning discussion of the flower fund, or any other
sub.1ect.
Further, deponent sayeth not.
Dewey McGhee.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 24th day of August 1959.
[seal]
Notary Public, Wayne County, Mich.
My commission expires May 23, 1960.
Affidavit
State of Ohio,
County of Cuyahoya, ss:
Wesley A. Schultz, being duly sworn, deposes and says that he resides at
14,321 Gramatan Avenue, Cleveland. Ohio, and is presently employed at Mid-
land-Ross Corp. as a tool and die maker; that from July 1949, until April of
1959 he was employed by the UAW in the Cleveland and Detroit areas; that
his job title while working for the union was coordinator of organization and
as such he was responsible for competitive shop staff people in the area.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20189
AflBant says that he knew J. F. Motsinger as a staff organizer during a small
part of this time and also had Dewey McGhee imder his direction. The affiant
knows of no instance in which Dewey McGhee was reprimanded, lectured,
censured, or ''bawled out" l>.y Walter Madrzykowski, or any other official of the
union. Affiant never told J. F. Mot.singer that such a conversation had taken
place. Affiant does not recall ever asking J. F. Motsinger to come to Cleveland
from Canton for any purpose other than the usual staff meetings.
Walter Madrzykowski never interfered with any of my work in directing staff
people under my direction and in no instance that I know of went directly to
the staff, or any single one of them, for any purpose.
Wesley A. Schultz.
Sworn to and subscribed to before me this 25th day of August, 1959.
John II. Ober, Notary Pithlic.
My commission expires June 20. 19(50.
Affidavit
Statp: of Michigan,
County of ISt. Clair:
I, Barden L. Young, being duly sworn to depose and say :
1. I reside at 95S1 Vaughn, city of Detroit, County of Wayne, State of Michi-
gan. I have been a member of local 174 and of the international union con-
tinuously since 1939 and have been a member of the international union staff
since 1^4.
2. I understand that one, J. F. Motsinger, in recent testimony before a U.S.
Senate committee stated that I had a conversation with him in 1952 in which
I allegedly discussed smear tactics used by the UAW in political campaigns and
in which I more si3ecifically have alleged to have stated, with reference to
former U.S. Senator Charles Potter, with reference to his war injuries, "Wait
until it gets around to finding out what actually happened, tliat he was slightly
inebriated, and fell off a truck, in a truck accident."
3. I hereby state and swear that I never had any such conversation with
Motsinger, that neither in 1952 or any other time did I ever discuss smear
tactics or this type of personal attack with regard to any political candidate
with Motsinger or anyone else, that I never made any statement to Motsinger
or anyone else concerning the war injuries of former Senator Potter, and that
to the best of my recollection, no one connected with the UAW at any time during
the 1952 political campaign participated in any rumor mongering or smear
campaign of any type with reference to former Senator Potter's war injuries.
Further, deponent sayest not.
(Signed) Barden L. Young.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 25th day of August 1959, in the
<<tunty of St. Clair, State of Michigan.
, Notary.
My commission expires .
Affidavit
State of New York,
County of New York, ss:
John J. Dillon, being duly sworn, deposes and says :
1 reside at 33-52 Crescent Street, Long Island City, N.Y.
I am educational and citizenship director of region 9A of International Union,
United Automobile, Aircraft and Agricultural Implement Workers of America,
UAW, AFL-CIO, hereinafter referred to as "International" and have held that
position at all times hereinafter mentioned.
It is my understanding that one Jess Motsinger, who was formally employed
by the international was in New York City in 1954, from the 23d day of Septem-
ber to the 1st day of October of that year. I am further informed that registra-
tion of voters for the purpose of qualifying to vote in the general election of
1954 was held, pursuant to law, from Thursday, September 30 of that year
until Saturday, October 9.
In the course of my employment with the international I was generally re-
sponsible, in 1954, for administration of efforts exerted by the international and
by its region 9A in the geographical area of the latter with respect to the en-
20190 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES EST THE LABOR FIELD
suing general election. From my own recollection and from records now in pos-
session of region 9A, which I have recently had occasion to examine, it is my
belief that, in the period prior to the commencement of registration in 1954 the
educational and citizenship activities of the international and its region 9A,
as those of various civic and educational organizations, were largely, if not
wholly, concerned with the education of the voting public in general to the re-
quirement that they register in accord with the provisions of law so as to in-
sure their being allowed to exercise their franchise to elect whatever repre-
sentatives and to pass upon whatever referendums, if any, they choose to support.
( Signed) John J. Dillon.
Sworn to before me this 31st day of August 1959.
Affidavit
State of Michigan,
County of Wayne, ss:
I, Charles E. Yaeger, being duly sworn depose and say that :
1. I am the assistant director of the Accounting Department of the Interna-
tional Union, UAW, and its chief accountant, and have held that post since Febru-
ary 14, 1955.
2. Records of said accounting department indicate that one J. F. Motsinger
was on the staff of said international union from April 1953 to January 1955.
3. The records of said accounting department further show that the only period
•when said J. F. Motsinger was assigned to the New York City area was the week
from September 23 to October 1, 1954.
Further, deponent sayeth not.
(Signed) Charles E. Yaeger.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 31st day of August, 1959.
Notary PuMio, Wayne Coimty, Mich.
My commission expires .
TESTIMONY OF CYRUS MARTIN— Resumed
The Chairman. You have been previously sworn?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Vou will remain under the same oath.
Proceed.
The Chair admonishes you again that I am going to expedite these
hearings, and I am going to get through as quickly as I can.
Senator Curtis. You testified, Mr. Martin, that your name was
Cyrus Martin, and you are also known as Toots Martin?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. What is your present employment ?
Mr. Martin. I work 2 days a week at Our Lady of Mount Carmel
Church, as a janitor.
Senator Curtis. Did you have any other employment in recent
times during the school year ?
Mr. Martin. I drove a school bus at times.
Senator Curtis. But at the present time, during the summer
months, you are the janitor at the church ?
Mr. Martin. That is my only source of income, Mr. Senator.
Senator Curtis. Now, you belonged to local 12, or associated with
local 12, for some 13 years ; were you not ?
Mr. Martin. I joined the union in 1934, Mr. Senator, and it was
then known as local 384, and I was a charter member of that local
union.
Senator Curtis. And you weie a steward at Willys-Overland ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20191
Mr. Martin. That is right, Mr, Senator.
Senator Curtis. For about 4 years ?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Senator Curtis. And then you were a local 12 representative Avith
theUAW?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. For about 6 years ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. And you have also served as international repre-
sentative?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. For a period of 3 years ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Now, during all of this time, when your connection
was with local 12, has been the period of time that Eichard Gosser
has also been associated there ; has it not?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Do you recall what position Kichard Gosser held
when you first came on the scene of local 12 ?
Mr. Martin. He was president of the local union, and then he was
elected regional director of region 2-B.
Senator Curtis. And when you ceased your connection with the
union, was he regional director or had he been made vice president ?
Mr. ]VL\rtin. He was vice president.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Martin, during this time did you make
any contributions to what they called the flower fund ?
Mr. IVLvRTiN. I sure did.
Senator Curtis. How often did you make them ?
Mr. Martin. Well, in regard to that, when I was a local 12 officer,
I made them every week, and wlien I received my paycheck from the
local leader, I paid in $5 every week.
When I became an international representative, then it was turned
in on my expense sheet which occurred every 2 weeks, and in those
cases I turned in $20 along with my expense sheet.
Senator Curtis. As an international representative ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. When you say it was turned in with your expense
sheet, was there anything written on there or do you mean by that that
you attached your remittance to it.
Mr. Martin. I attached my remittance to it.
(At this point Senator Kennedy entered the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. How did you make these payments? Was it by
cash or by check?
Mr. Martin. In cash.
Senator Curtis. Were you required to make these payments in order
to continue on as an employee of the union ?
Mr. Martin. I would say I was.
Senator Curtis. And I hand you what purports to be a receipt
here. I ask you to look at it and see if you can identify it.
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. The Chair presents to you the document referred
to by Senator Curtis, which pur])orts to be a receipt. You may ex-
amine it and state if you identify it and make any explanation of it.
( The document was handed to the witness. )
20192 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Can you identify that, and is that something that
was handed to you or given to you '?
Mr. Martin. That is right, Mr. Senator. This is a receipt from
Howard H. Reddinger, wlio was at that time secretary of the Toledo
Industrial I'nion Council, which local 12 is affiliated with.
Just what it was for, I just can't recall. In other words, it was for
some kind of ticket that I turned in, or some money that I owed, and
I just can't recall what it was for, due to the fact that I was faced with
so many of these kind of receipts and fines and dues and so forth that
it is hard to recall just what this was for.
But it was money that I gave Mr, Reddinger, and he gave me a
receipt for it.
The Chairman. Let me see. I am tiding to find out if it has anj-
real force or validity for the purpose of these hearings. You say you
don't know whether it is money that you paid back that you bor-
rowed, or what it was for ?
Mr. Martin. I am sure of that, Mr. Senator.
The Chairman. What is that?
Mr. Martin. It is not for money that I borrowed, this receipt. It
was either some money that I owed TIUC or whoever it came undei'
at the time, on the basis of selling tickets or raffle tickets.
The Chairman. You may have some tickets or turned in the money
and got a receipt for it; is that what you are saying ^
Mr. Martin. In this particular case, yes.
The Chairman. Woidd there be anything wrong with it?
Mr. Martin. I didn't say there was anything wrong, and the only
thing I am saying is
Senator Curtis. I will withdraw it.
The Chairman. Let us not take up time with irrelevant matters.
Senator Curtis. I was under the impression that this was for an-
other purpose. Momentarily I withdraw it and go on to something
else.
The Chairman. Let the receipt be withdrawn.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Martin, you stated that for a while your
contributions to the flower fund were $5. Without taking too much
time to figure up the exact months, approximately over how long a
period of time were your contributions $5 ?
Mr. Martin. I would say roughly about 3 years, until I became an
international representative.
Senator Curtis. And then it was $20 ?
Mr. Martin. Then it was $10 a week instead of $5.
Senator Curtis. And $20 a month ?
Mr. Martin. $20 every other week.
Senator Curtis. Now, it has been stated here in defense of the
flower fund that this was money for internal politics in the union, in
order that the union officers could get their story across and be re-
elected and the like. During some 13 years that you were connected
with it, was it your observation that this amount of money was
needed and used for that purpose?
Mr. Martin. No. I think it was in excess of wliat we actually
needed.
Senator Curtis. Did you have anything to do, Avhen you were em-
ployed by the union, in connection with union elections?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20193
Senator Curtis. Tliis was when you were assigned to the Willy s-
Overland. plant i
Mr. Martin. That is right, Mr. Senator.
Senator Curtis. Now, when they had an election in local 12 where
would the election be held ; at the plants ?
Mr. Martin. It would be held at local 12 hall, which was approxi-
mately 2 miles from the plant.
Senator Curtis. And there would be a number of plants partici-
pating?
Mr. Maritn. There would be a nmuber of plants participating in
the election, but on a different basis than the Willys-Overland plant
was.
Senator Curtis. What do you mean by "on a diiferent basis"?
Mr. Martin. Well, these other plants either had to go down on
their own initiative after hours or whenever they saw fit to go down,
Avhereas at the Willys-Overland they were hauled down during work-
ing hours, by the international representatives, and 1 was one of them,
plus the local 12 officers all came down during working hours.
Senator Curtis. Xow, were cars provided to luiul Willys-Overland
employees down to vote ?
Mr. Martin. They were, Mr. Senator.
Senator Curtis. Who provided those?
Mr. Martin. The international representatives furnished the cars,
and local 12 representatives and officers.
Senator Curtis. You personally have helped with this work, and
you have done some of the driving ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir ; on several occasions.
Senator Curtis. And from your experience, as an international
representative, and also as a steward in the plant, do you know that
these men went down on company time ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Now, all of this was done under the general di-
rection and supervision of Mr. Gosser ; is that correct ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Could any union member in Willys-Overland who
wanted to ride, avail themselves of this transportation, or were the
men selected ?
Mr. Martin. Well, the procedure was that steward body of the
Willys-Overland used to go around.
Senator Curtis. The stewards, you mean ?
Mr. Martin. The steward in the plant would gather the employees
at diiferent times of the day, different hours, and take them out to
the gate, and then the cars would haul them down, and then they
w^ould vote.
Senator Curtis. Was it your opinion that the purpose of this, and
that it did work out that way, was that that always provided enough
pro-Gosser votes to carry the election ?
Mr. Martin. That is right, Mr. Senator.
(Members present at this point in the proceedings were Senators Mc-
Clellan, Mundt, Kennedy, and Curtis.)
Senator Curtis. I have read the statement that you made where
you stated that at the time there were about 85,000 membei-s in local
12, that the highest you have known of voting were around 3,500.
Is that your best estimate at this time?
20194 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Martin. To my knowledge, that is right.
Senator Curtis. That would be about 1 out of 10 ?
Mr. Martin. That would be right.
Senator Curtis. If someone was not one of the Gosser clique, they
would have to provide their own transportation down to vote ; is that
correct ?
Mr. Martin. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Curtis. Would they have to either lose pay or go down
after hours ?
Mr. ]\L\RTiN. That is pretty hard to answer. If they could sneak
out and the boss didn't see them, I imagine they would get paid.
Senator Curtis. But in general w^as that true?
Mr. Martin. Here is how they actually operated. The steward
body in these departments knew who was going to support who before
they would allow them to go down to vote. In other words, bring
them down to the gate so the drivers could take them down to vote.
They knew who they was taking down there.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Martin, did they have any sort of goon squad
at the Willys Overland plant, or anywhere in local 12?
]\Ir. Martin. They had a flying squadron.
Senator Curtis. About how lai'ge was it ?
Mr. Martin. Eoughly I would say maybe 100 or 150 membei*s.
Senator Curtis. Were you a member of it ?
Mr. Martin. I sure was.
Senator Curtis. Wliat kind of work or acts were they called upon
to perform ?
Mr. Martin. All according to their age and physical ability. Some
of them was known as the burial group, another was known as the en-
tertainment group, and parade group, and the flying squadron group.
The flying squadron group was the group if there was any trouble at
the plants, they was assigned to that particular plant to assist the
strikere at that plant.
Senator Curtis. Did that have anything to do with violence at
times ?
Mr. Martin. It did.
Senator Curtis. Did it have anything to do with the intimidation,
or at least inducing members or others to do certain things?
Mr. jSIartin. It did.
Senator Curtis. When did you leave the union ? First, coming back
to these contributions to the flower fund, you stated tliat you were
required to do that. Was there anything ever specifically said to you,
or did you receive any information that that had to be done or do you
know from your knowledge on the inside that you had to keep those
payments in order for you to stay in the clique and hold your job?
Mr. Martin. Yes, and I would also state this. If you did not pay
the $20 expenses every 2 weeks, your check was held up'until you turned
it in, before you could receive your check.
Senator Curtis. It liad to be paid in cash ?
Mr. Martin. It had to be paid in cash.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever get an accounting as someone who
consistently paid into this flower fund ? Did you ever get a statement
back from the treasurer or other officer showing how much was re-
ceived, and what it went for?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IX THE LABOR FIELD 20195
Mr. Martin. Mr. Senator, it always was a mystery. Nobody that
contributed to that fund, unless it was some sort of inner circle, ever
knew the amount of money that was collected, or the amomit of money
that was spent in regard to entertainment or flowers or what have you.
We never knew how much was in the treasury. We never knew how
much was spent. That is the majority of those that participated in it.
There never was an account given in regards to expenditures or assets
or anything.
Senator Curtis. About when did you cease to be with the union ?
The Chairman. Let the Chair interrupt for just one moment, please.
(At this point Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. The Chair has had a member of the staff ex-
amine the affidavits submitted by Mr. Rauh along with his letter of
September 4. The Chair finds that the affidavits generally are re-
sponsive to testimony that has been received. I will therefore order
and direct that they be printed in the record immediately followintr
my openmg statement here, this morning, and Mr. Rauh's presenta*
tion of these matters. The letter, however, will not be published in
the record. The letter will remain on file as an exhibit for reference,
but the affidavits will be printed in the record as the Chair has directed.
The letter will be made exhibit No. 23.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 23" for ref-
erence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. Let me identify these affidavits. The affidavits of
Russell White, August 25 ; of Dewey McGhee, of August 25 ; of John
J. Dillon, of August 31 ; of Barden L. Young, of August 25 ; Wesley
A Schultz, of August 25 ; of Kenneth Bannon, of August 26 ; and
Charles E. Yaeger, of August 31. I wanted to identify them.
Senator Kennedy.
Senator Kennedy. As I underetand it, Mr. Joseph Rauh submitted
a lettei--I have a copy of it here— to the Chairman, suggesting in view
ot the fact that tlie number of statements which were made by previous
witnesses m this hearing are challenged completely by the affidavits
which are now presented, he therefore suggested that before further
testunony be heard that these witnesses be submitted to the usual staff
investigation. (3therwise, charges are made, and innuendoes drawn
and distortions suggested, without having a chance for the members
ot the ^mmittee to know whether this is an actual presentation,
lliese athdavits contradict almost completelv many important state-
ments and serious charges made by witnesses who appeared at this
hearing at the last session. If we are going to have a continuation of
that, and then we are going to get a week later affidavits wliich say
that tlie statements were untrue, it seems to me that is an mifair way
to operate. It is the kind of thing which gets congressional commit-
tees m a good deal of disrepute.
The Chairman. I think everybody knows the circumstances of these
hesirings. As the situation developed, we started out to hear this
testimony or some parts of it in executive session. In the coui^e of
planning to hold executive sessions, I tliink all members of the com-
mittee became convinced, or at least I think the vote was unanimous,
to throw them into public session, and that is where we are. Tlie
^hair is going to be as fair as he can to both sides, and particularlv
36751—60 — pt. 58 19
20196 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
with respect to any testimony that may be presented refuting testi-
mony given by the witnesses on either side. Under the rule they have
a perfect right to request to be heard in person or to submit affidavits.
I have permitted, at their request, the affidavits. I had not read them,
but I wanted to have them checked by members of the staff familiar
with the testimony then developed to see that they are responsive to the
testimony. I admitted them as part of the record, part of the proof.
Thus you have swom testimony in conflict.
The Chair has not so annomiced, but it is the practice of this com-
mittee to submit such testhnony to the Department of Justice for it to
undertake to perform its duty in such cases and circmnstances, and
that will be done.
Senator I^nnedy, In this case the charges are serious. The affi-
davits come many days later. The affidavits are in complete contra-
diction. It seems to me that eitlier the affidavits are lying or the wit-
nesses are lying, or the investigatory work, whoever has been conduct-
ing this, IMr. Manuel, has not been done thoroughly. All these things
have been brought out in the press. They are 10 years old. They are
charges which have been hashed and rehashed. It seemed to me it
would have been possible when this investigation was being conducted
for INIr. Manuel to detennine whether the witnesses were telling an
accurate story, as for example how long the previous witness was in
New York during the campaign of 1954. Now we have an affidavit
that he was there for a week. He gave the impression he was there
for 6 or 7 weeks, during the whole campaign. It seems to me it would
be possible by investigatory work to know whether these charges made
by individuals are accurate. Then if the testimony of those present-
ing them is that they are accurate, then we ought to hear them.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I shall proceed with the witness.
I merely want to say this, that these discrepancies in testimony do
spring up. For instance, I recall Mr. Kauh himself stating that a
document did not exist and had not existed, and we produced a copy
of it here. We will be very happy to have the Justice Department
investigate every conflict of testimony here, regardless of where it
comes from, or what. Also I think it is fair and I again state in
the record that I obtained permission to submit some evidence in
executive session to determine whether or not a complete investiga-
tion was warranted. I stated that. It is part of the record of the
first day's hearings when I was asked what the objective was. The
majority members of the committee at the request of Walter Reuther
insisted that the hearings be made open. I want to say that these
witnesses have all been interrogated. I have talked to them. Mr.
Manuel has worked with them at length. They are testifying under
oath. I shall not dwell on who is right or who is wrong. We will
be very happy to have everybody's testimony checked by the Justice
Department.
Senator Ivennedy. Is it possible to have a list of the witnesses who
are to come for the remainder ?
The Chairman. I have that.
Senator Kennedy. Are all these the witnesses that will be called in
this investigation?
Senator Curtis. That is all I know, yes.
Mr. Martin, about when did you terminate your connection wit!
the union?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20197
Mr. Martin. Mr. Chairman, do you mean when I was expelled or
when I was referred back into the shop ?
Senator Cuktis. When you no longer were an employee of the
union. You were then sent back to the shop ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. About when did that occur ?
Mr. Martin. I would like to point out again, Mr. Senator, that in
regard to these dates and days that all my records were stolen out of
my car. I can give you the approximate date and day, but my
records were all stolen.
The Chairman. When were your records stolen ?
Mr. Martin. What is that ?
The Chairman. When were your records stolen ?
Mr. Martin. When were they stolen?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Martin. I don't hear too good.
The Chairman. When were your records stolen ?
Mr. Martin. I would say about June of 1951.
The Chairman. Now, then, whatever record you are talking about
for this thing in issue is for some date prior to 1951 ?
Mr. Martin. No. What I was speaking about, Mr. Chairman, is
when I was taken off the international payroll.
The Chairman. That was prior to 1951 ?
Senator Curtis. That is right.
Mr. :M\RnN. That is right.
The Chairman. You have no record of it?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. What all did you lose in jouv records, briefly?
Mr. JNIartin. What all did I lose ? I lost where I was taken off the
international payroll.
The Chairman. That is one thing.
Mr. Martin. And put on the sick list. Then I lost when I went
back into the shop — the records when I went back into the shop — I
think that was October of 1950 I went back into the shop.
The Chairman. Those are two things you lost. You have no record
ofit?
Mr. Martin. There was a lot of others I lost, too, records.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Senator Curtis. Wliy were you removed from your union job and
put back in the shop ?
Mr. Martin. I want to get these dates correct here, as close as I
can. I was taken off of the full-time payroll of the international union
around May or June of 1950. Then in October— August or October
of 1950, I was taken off tlie international payroll in its entirety and
put back into the shop of Willys-Overland.
Senator Curtis. I say why was this done ?
Mr. Martin. Why was this done ?
Senator Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Martin. This was done due to the fact that I went over and
seen a couple of fellows by the name of Frank Molik and Lloyd
Speidell. Mr. Gosser found that out.
Senator Curtis. Is that Mr. Speidell who testified here?
20198 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Martin. That is right, and Mr. Molik. Both used to work for
the union. I went over to their place of business. They wanted to
see me.
Senator Curtis. That was over at Mr. Speidell's tavern?
Mr. Martin. And Mr. Molik's tavern at that time.
Senator Curtis. That displeased Gosser ?
Mr. Martin. That displeased Gosser very much.
Senator Curtis. Without going into too much detail what were you
seeing them about to cause Gosser to be displeased ?
Mr. Martin. They wanted to more or less alert me on what is going
on in regard to these charges that were preferred against them, and
in regard to this hearing conducted against the UAW.
Senator Curtis. In other words, you had a talk or conference with
them about matters within local 12 concerning some matters which
were adverse to Gosser, and you ended up by being removed as a union
employee ; is that right ?
Mr. Martin. That is right, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Curtis. Were you first put on the sick list?
Mr. Martin. I was first put on the sick list. In other words, that
was during the time of the plant strike. We set up a kitchen and a
food store in the local union. AVe was working 12 or 15 hours a day.
I just got to a point of exhaustion, that is all. I think they recog-
nized the fact. So they took me off the international payroll as a full
time and put me on the sick list. Then I just started to receive my
wages and no expenses. , , i • i
Senator Curtis. Then you worked for a few months back in the
shop after your sick period ? , , . o t 1 1
Mr. Martin. Yes; but before I answer that, Mr. Senator, I would
like to bring this point out. I went over and talked to Mr. Molik and
Mr. Speidell. Mr. Gosser got word of it through somebody that was
in there, so he called me up to his office. He sent a fellow out to my
house the next day after I was over at Mr. Speidell's place, by the
name of Francis Reno, who was an international representative at
that time. I was not at home, and he informed my wife that Mr.
Gosser wanted to see me at 8 o'clock that evening.
I went in to Mr. Gosser's office. I would like to point out that in
regards to that, Mr. Gosser called me into his office, I was not on Mr.
Gosser's payroll. I remained on the regional director's payroll, Mr.
Ballard, and constitutionally Mr. Gosser didn't have no jurisdiction
over me in regards to my activities or anything else. Mr. Ballard
did, but Mr. Gosser didn't. He saw fit to go to work to take jurisdic-
tion. He called me into his office and asked me, he says, "Martin, what
is this I heard about you ? I heard you were in Molik's and Speidell s
place yesterday." I said I was. I said, "Mr. Billheimer and Mr.
Martin came out and said they wanted to enlighten me on a tew
thin^Ts tliat was going on in tlie local union." He says, "Do you want
to play ball with them?" "I don't know whether you call it playing
ball with them or not, but if you are going to tell me who I am going
to work and talk to in regard to my social life." He said, If that is
the way you feel about it," he says, "when you are physically able to
go back in the shop, you go there, and there will be a job available, i
am telling you right now, when you go back in there, keep your nose
clean, or you will pay the penalty for it."
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20199
Then I left his office, and when I left his office he said, "You are not
the only one going back to the shop. When you get out of here I am
calling Schultz in here and putting him back in the shop, too."
Senator Curtis. That is Melvin Schultz ?
Mr. Martin. Melvin Schultz, They never went back to the shop, to
my knowledge.
Senator Curtis. So for some months following your sick spell, you
did work in the shop ?
Mr. ]\Iartin. Like I say, about 3 months afterwards I went back
to work in the Willys- Overland in the body shop as a welder in de-
partment 187 or 186. It is one department or the other. There I took
a job as a welder.
Senator Curtis. How could Mr. Gosser send you back to the shop?
Mr. Martin. I think as these hearings proceed everybody on tliis
committee will be aware of the fact why he sent me back to the shop.
Mr, Gosser, in my opinion, at that time, he wasn't only vice presi-
dent. He was regional director, he was president of the Toledo Indus-
trial Council, he was president of local 12. In other words, he ran
the whole show.
Senator Curtis. Whether he held those offices or not, he dictated the
policy ; is that your statement ?
Mr. Martin. Repeat that again. Senator.
Senator Curtis. I say whether or not he held all those offices, he
dictated the policies.
Mr. Martin. He sure did. The proceedings of this hearing will
show that.
Senator Curtis. Did he also dictate to Willys-Overland what they
should do ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. In other words, he said who was going
to be the chairman, the vice chairman, and so on and so forth.
Senator Curtis. Chairman of what ?
Mr. Martin. Of the Willys-Overland unit.
Senator Curtis. He determined that ?
Mr. Martin. He determined who was going to run and who was not
going to run.
Senator Curtis. Then the voters were hauled to the polls to bring
that about?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. When he sent you back to work in the plant, were
you the object of any harassment or any difficulty there?
(At this point Senator Gold water withdrew from the hearing
room. )
Mr. Martin. I was, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Curtis. Tell us about that.
Mr. Martin. Like I said in my previous statement when he told
me to go back to the shop, be a good boy and keep my nose clean, I
didn't listen to him. I went back to the shop. A lot coordinated
around me. We went to work and set up an executive shop commit-
tee to run against the administration that was in the plant at that
tirne. We went down to the unit meeting, another Willys-Overland
unit, and we put in our nominations in regards to running for office.
We also tried to put a motion on the floor that instead of conducting
the election at local 12, we should conduct it in the plant. Of course,
20200 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
with the steward body which had to be present at these meetings in
the plant at that time, my motion was voted down. Then we put a
motion on the floor that if the meeting was going to be conducted down
at local 12, that ballots should be turned over to Briggs Express
Agency at night and be brought back next morning. That also was
defeated. But we did go to work and set up a committee, and we
did run in the shop election. It was the same old procedure. They
would haul the people down during working hours. I will say some
of ours got down there, too, but a majority of them, I imagine, had to
go after work at night, because there was quite a line up at the voting
booths because some of the people were voting at night. That is how
that happened.
Senator Curtis. Did you receive any persecution or harassment for
being active, for voting procedures that was not in accord what the
Gosser crowd wanted. I mean as you worked in the plant ?
Mr. Martin. Yes. There was a lot of handbills put out against
me, condemning me for difl'erent reasons, and we also put handbills
out in opposition.
Senator Curtis. Were you ultimately discharged from your job
or put out of the union ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, I was expelled for 99 years.
Senator Curtis. How did that come about ?
Mr. Martin. That is what I am here for. Senator. For several
years I am trying to find out, what my expulsion was.
The Chairman. Can't you get it commuted to 90 ?
Mr. Martin. I only got 90 more years to go yet.
Senator Curtis. You didn't get the treatment that Mr. Zvara did
who got to resign ?
Mr. Martin. No.
Senator Curtis. You were put out for 99 years.
Mr. Martin. I got 99 years.
Senator Curtis. What incident, if any, happened just prior to your
being put out of the union ?
Mr. Martin. Like I stated, when I went back into the shop to
work as a welder, either in department 187 or 189, after I was working
in there for 2 or 3 weeks, a fellow was transferred down to my depart-
ment from another department by the name of Arnold Shenofsky. I
imagine he was put down there to keep check on my activities and
so forth and so on.
Senator Curtis. He was a Gosser man ?
Mr. Martin. He was a Gosser man, that is right.
Senator Curtis. Go ahead.
Mr. Martin. In the time he was down there, he made several re-
marks to different people in regard to what type of fellow I was, and
so forth and so on. Then on New Year's Day, he wrote on a con-
veyor — this was a belt form conveyor to move from one end of the
plant to another — he wrote down something. It is too filthy to re-
peat. But it was obscene language.
Senator Curtis. Directed to you ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. On big letters on this conveyor di-
rected to me.
Senator Curtis. Wliat did you do ?
Mr. Martin. In the afternoon, in other words, it was New Year's
Day — I want to point this out, because I imagine the question might
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20201
be asked — that the employees in Willys-Overland on New Year's aft-
ernoon, before the plant would close, would always have a little cele-
bration. In other words, the foreman would bring something to drink,
and the employees would bring something to drink and they would
all have a few drinks. That was during the time he wrote this on
the conveyor. I went up to him then and told him what I thought of
this statement he made on the conveyor. In other words, I gave him
my opinion what I thought he was. With that I was hit.
Senator Curtis. By whom ?
Mr. Martin. By Arnold Shenof sky.
Senator Curtis. Wliat did he hit you with ?
Mr. Martin. A broken pop bottle.
The Chairman. You mean you provoked a fight by calling him
names and telling him what you thought of him ?
Mr. Martin. I can't hear you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman Did you provoke him to fight by calling him in-
sulting names and telling him what you thought of him ?
Mr. Martin. No, he provoked the fight. There was no fight to it.
I never struck a blow, Mr. Senator. The records of the hearing will
show.
The Chairman. There was fight enough that a blow was struck and
you stopped it.
Mr. Martin. I stopped it with my face.
The Chairman. That is what I say.
Mr. Martin. I stopped it with my face, a broken beer bottle or a
pop bottle.
Senator Curtis This was in sequence to what he wrote on the con-
veyor belt, some language you do not want to repeat here, directed
at you ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Then you used some language to him that you also
would not want to repeat here?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Then you were hit by Arnold Shenofsky with a
pop bottle ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. He admitted that and pleaded guilty
in court and was convicted of it. He was fined $250.
Senator Curtis. In the local court ?
Mr. Martin. He pleaded guilty to the charges and he was fined.
Senator Curtis. You were present at the time of the hearing ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. I would like to make this statement.
His fine was paid by collections of certain individuals who went
around in the shop and collected money from the employees for the de-
fense of Arnold Shenof slry against me.
Senator Curtis. In the Willys-Overland plant ?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Senator Curtis. Was that collection handled by some of Gosser's
men, too ?
Mr. ^Iartin. I would say that, Mr. Senator, yes.
Senator Curtis. Now I hand you some pictures and ask you to tell
us what those are.
The Chairman. I hand you three pictures and ask you if you rec-
ognize yourself ?
(The documents were handed to the witness. )
20202 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Martin. Them is the pictures that was taken of me after my
release from the hospital which was approximately 5 or 6 days after
I was beaten up.
The Chairman. They will be made exhibit No. 24.
(The photographs referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 24" for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Senator Curtis. Will you hold them up so the committee can see
them ? That hit you right at the bridge of the nose ?
Mr. JVIartin. I had two cuts. One down through here and a cut
on my forehead and between the eyes.
Senator Curtis. Do you still have a scar ?
Mr. M.\RTiN. I still carry the scars.
Senator Curtis. All three pictures are of you showing the same in-
jury but from different angles; is that right?
Mr. Martin. That is right, Mr. Senator.
Senator Curtis. What happened to you so far as your union mem-
bership was concerned following this? That is when you were ex-
pelled ; was it ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. I received a notice of charges preferred
against me that was going to be read off' at the next unit meeting of the
Willys-Overland unit of local 12. I was at that meeting. All these
charges stated that I was suspended for 99 years for conduct unbe-
coming a member of this imion. That covers a multitude of sins and I
would like to know. I have been waiting 7 years to find out what
specific charges they were that caused my expulsion. "Conduct un-
becoming a union member" doesn 't mean a thing in itself.
Senator Curtis. This was for 99 years ?
Mr. Martin. Ninety-nine years ?
Senator Curtis. That would exclude you at least from all plants
where the UAW had contracts in the Toledo area ?
Mr. Martin. That is right, I lost my livelihood. I lost my msur-
ance. I lost everything.
Senator Curtis. Your union insurance?
Mr. Martin. My insurance with the plant. My union insurance
was automatically terminated when I was taken off the international
payroll.
The Chairman. May I inquire if you appealed from that ruling
to some higher tribunal in the union ?
Mr. Martin. I made an appeal to the executive shop committee of
the Willys Overland unit which was my fii-st procedure. They con-
curred with the findings of the trial committee.
Senator Curtis. Then what did you do? Where did you appeal?
Mr. Martin. Then what did I do? I contacted my attorney in
regards to that. The attorney was Gilmore Flues, who is now liere
in Washington as Assistant Secretary of the Treasury. He was my
attorney. He told me, "Martin, checking in regards to Shenofsky
and the union, Shenofsky himself hasn't got a thing. All he has is
his daily pay. The union will fight you all through the courts. You
can stand to lose your equity in your home and evei-ything else. It
is just one of them cases," he said.
Senator (^urtis. You had been expelled for 99 years.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You appealed to the shop board first.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20203
Mr. Maeiin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. From tliere did you apj^eal or prosecute your case
any further?
Mr. Martin. Xo ; I figured it would be useless.
Senator Curtis. You didn't go any further with it because you
thought it would be useless ?
]Mr. Martin. Yes ; due to the fact of my attorney's statement to me.
Senator Curtis, is'^ow, Mr. Martin, you know this Arnold She-
nof sky ?
Mr. Martin. I know him real well.
Senator Curtis. He was the one the court found guilty and fined
$250, and collection was taken to pay his fine. So far as the union
is concerned, you were found guilty and put out for 99 years and lost
your livelihood and group insurance in the plant ? Wliat happened to
Shenofsky?
Mr. Martin. What happened to Shenofsky ? He was also expelled
from the Willys- Overland unit the same as I was, but he was taken
care of. What I mean by that, he was reemployed in the Spicer
plant, and established seniority there. The period of time he worked
there, I don't know.
Senator Curtis. How did he establish seniority ?
Mr. Martin. By working in the Spicer plant after he left Willys-
Overland. Like 30 days you establish senority, or 60 days. Some
plants vary.
Senator Curtis. With the aid of the union official.
^Ir. Martin. That is right. In other words, they have a hiring
committee there in the Spicer unit, and the hiring committee does the
hiring.
Senator Curtis. Is the hiring committee company people or union
people ?
]SIr. Martin. Union people.
Senator Curtis. He was taken back in the plant and allowed to
establish seniority ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Then what happened to him ?
Mr. Marttn. Then after he established seniority — in other words,
he had a home base to go back to in case something happened in the
international union — then for his reward of doing a good job of
cutting me up, they made him an international representative and put
him on the payroll. That is what they did to him.
Senator Curtis. Is he still on the payroll as an international rep-
resentative ?
Mr. Martin. So far as I know.
Senator Curtis. You do know that he stayed on for a number of
years.
Mr. Martin. I would say that ; yes. Two, three years, four years,
whatever the time was. The records will show that.
Senator Curtis. I might say, Mr. Chairman, even though this com-
mittee has gone back into the twenties and brought in wrongdoing or
alleged wrongdoing in unions in the twenties and early thirties, we
have not objected to it, because it all had legislative effect. This ad-
mittedly was in the late 1940's and in the early fifties. We submit it
here because it has a present current bearing. The same group — Mr.
20204 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Gosser is still running things — the people who disagreed with him ate
put out. They are punished. The people who carry out his bidding
are rewarded. Subsequent witnesses will show that this was taken to
Mr. Reuther, that he has backed up Mr. Gosser all the way, including
as late as our Kohler hearings, and that these injustices contijiue to
go on.
Mr. ICennedt. Senator, can I speak on that point ?
Senator Curtis. Yes ; I want to say I have no criticism of the fact
in other cases we have gone back.
Mr. Kennedy. I might say the only time we have gone back, and I
don't know that we have gone back to the lOSO's and 1930's, where we
have gone back is because there is some event that occurred which
we are bringing up to date. This occurred some 10 years ago. The
material that we have presented in prior hearings has something of
greater significance, in my estimation, than two individuals who have
had some drinks getting into a fight in a plant, and one of them hitting
the other with a Coke bottle or a bottle of pop. I might say, too, and
I would like to get this straightened out, because there has been
some reference to the staff of the committee, I have never seen since
I liave been with committees an investigation run as this investiga-
tion is being run.
Senator Curtis. This is much different. We have had to do this
work ourselves without any help. When we started out in executive
session, I had my administrative assistant here to help me, and he had
to leave the room.
Mr. Kennedy. I think it is the worst situation I have ever seen since
I have been with congressional committees, placing a witness on the
stand and not checking his story. There has been some discussion
earlier about the fact that they can bring in affidavits and make
answers. Where congressional committees are being criticized, this
is the reason they are being criticized. The fact that it takes a week
or 10 days to give an answer is completely unfair, in our estimation.
Where there have been references to the staff of the committee con-
ducting the investigation, I want to make it clear that myself and the
people under my direction, and I am under the direction of the chair-
man, have had nothing to do with this investigation. I think it is a
completely intolerable situation and should not be allowed to go on,
but this is the decision of the committee. I don't want it assumed
that I have had anything whatsoever to do with tliis investigation.
Senator Curtis. Very well.
The Chairman. The Chair will make this statement: The chief
counsel has had nothing to do with this investigation ; and if anybody
wants to criticize, criticize the Chair. I will take the full responsi-
bility. Proceed.
Senator Curtis. You had something to say in response.
The Chairman. I may say this: It is a bad situation. It is one
of those things that developed. I don't know any way to handle it
except to go through with it. I am trying to expedite it. I have my
own opinion as to some of the merits of the situation, and also some
of the value of testimony that is being heard. But I want to set
through with this hearing now. We have come this far, and the com-
mittee voted unanimously to put this in public hearings, so we are
going through with it. Regular staff members who generally conduct
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20205
these investigations have not investigated this particular matter. We
are going to hear it from the standpoint of Senator Curtis' presenta-
tion. He is making the presentation. Proceed.
Senator Curtis. Go ahead with your answer.
Mr. Martin. I would like to clear to Mr. Kennedy one point where
he just said two fellows are drinking. Something like that could hap-
pen. I want to inform Mr. Kennedy right now that Mr. Shenofsky,
m regard to drinking or smoking, he doesn't participate. So he was
strictly sober the day of the occurrence.
Mr. Kennedy. What about you ?
Mr. Martin. I had a couple of drinks, but I was also sober, too.
Mr. Kennedy. I take it back about Mr. Shenofsky. Only you were
drinking.
Senator Curtis. Everybody has a right to his own opinion, but the
witness has testified under oath as to his belief that this trouble came
about not because of a sudden fight between the two, but because of
opposing certain practices going on in his own union. Other witnesses
have a right to dispute that, but that is this witness' statement, and I
believe it.
Wliat business did you get into or attempt to get into following your
expulsion for 99 years and had your livelihood taken away from you ?
Mr. Martin. In regards to that, after I was expelled for 99 years
I seen fit to go to work and try to operate a seafood and poultry place
on Phillips Avenue in Toledo, Ohio. That I started riglit after my
expulsion, about a month or so afterward. I continued to operate it
for a period of 8 months is all. It did not pan out the v*^ay I thought
it should, and I had to close my doors because of the competition
from chainstores, and I could not compete with them. I was not get-
ting anyplace fast.
Senator Curtis. Did you attempt to go into the beer business ?
Mr. Martin. Well, in regards to that, the business agent of the
Brewery Drivers Union knew about my situation. Pie informed a
fellow that he wanted to see me. Maybe he could go to work and
place me on some kind of a job. I went to see Mr. HofF, and he took
me dovrn to a place. It was a branch of the Drury's, Inc., of South
Bend. They had a branch in Toledo, Ohio, on Vann Street.
I went down and met the branch manager, Mr. Bill Graves, and
talked to him, and he gave me a job in regard to sales promotion as a
shopper in the city of Toledo. My duties were to go around these dif-
ferent places that: had beer permits, to go to work to see if we could
put beer in the places where the company did not have it.
In other words, I was called a shopper. That is what they called
us — shoppers.
The Chairman. Senator Curtis, how much longer do you think it
will take for this witness ?
Senator Curtis. Five minutes more.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Senator Curtis. Did you run into any Gosser opposition in this
beer business ?
Mr. ]VIartin. I sure did.
Senator Curtis. What was it ?
;Mr. Martin. After working for the company in Toledo they sent
me to Detroit, Mich., and I did the same thing'there. Mr. Fairburn,
20206 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
who was manager of the South Bend plant, called me up on the tele-
phone. "Martin," he said, "you did such a good job in Detroit we got
our beer put in a big market." lie said, "I want to congratulate you
on it." He said, "I would like to have you go to Chicago."
I would hate to leave the family and go to Chicago. I would like
to stay in Toledo.
He said, "If you don't care to go out to Toledo, it is all right."
So I went to Toledo and worked tliere as a loeer salesman.
While I was working there as a beer salesman, a fellow by the name
of Eddie Stoyer, and Arnold Justin — one was a beer salesman and the
other was a beer driver — got a call from local 12. It was toward
evening.
(At this point Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing
room.)
Mr. Martin. It was to deliver five cases beer at local 12. They put
theiBe five cases of beer in the truck and they delivered them to local 12.
The fellow that ordered them was a fellow by the name of Al Isalinski
or something, some words like that. He was the manager of the bar.
He is the one who ordered the beer.
So they brought the beer down there. They brought it inside the
bar. Just then Mr. Gosser came down through the bar and was going
out to his car, so the driver stated to me — and he seen this Drui-y's beer
there, he told this Al Isalinski to go to work and take that beer out of
here, "and if you ever order any beer from Drury's," he says, "you will
go out, too."
So they took this beer back. In other words, they didn't sell it.
They had to take it back to the brewery. The branch manager heard
of that. So he said, "I am going to go over and see Mr. Gosser."
He made an appointment and went o^er to see Mr. Gosser in regard
to tlie situation. He told them words to this effect : As long as you
have Martin on your payroll I will not put any Drury's beer in local 12
bar.
(At this point Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Martin. Mr. Graves came back to the office. On Saturday the
salesmen always had a meeting. He submitted that statement in the
meeting to Eddie Stoyer, Bill Pfeifer, Arnold Justin, and myself.
He said, "I am not going to take Martin off the payroll to put Druiy's
beer in local 12. Martin is going to stay on the payroll."
That was around October.
Senator Curtis. Of what year ?
Mr. Martin. I will have to refer to my employment record. This is
a recommendation from Mr. Graves I got here. I was employed from
March 17, 1952, to January 30, 1953. So it was around, we will say,
September or October of 1952 that he went to see Mr. Gosser, and
Mr. Gosser made that statement to him.
Senator Curtis. Gosser was still after you at that time ; if you had
anvthing to do with that beer company, they could not have it in
local 12?
Mr. Martin. Yes. Then caiTying on here in regard to dates.
About a week before Christmas Mr. Graves called me in his office, and
he said, "Mr. Martin, I want to tell you something. I got a little
surprise for you. As a rule, the first year the employees work for us
we don't go to work and give them any kind of bonus or Christmas
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20207
present. But we are going to give you a $50 Christmas present for
Christmas."
He says, "As of tlie first of the year we are going to increase your
salary either $10 or $15 a week as a*^ salesman for the company."
I thanked him and told him I appreciated it very much. The rec-
ords will show that after that — in other words, I increased their busi-
ness — Mr. Graves — in the city of Toledo about 30 percent — around
January the 10th, or between the 10th and the 15th I received a letter
from Mr. Fairburn, who is the sales manager of the Drury's brewery,
stating that he was sorry that they had to go to work and eliminate a
salesman in the city of Toledo. Due to the fact that I did such a good
job for the company they would offer me a job in the southern part
of Indiana, but I would have to establish my residence there. In other
words, move there with my wiie and family.
Senator Curtis, We have to shorten this up, but is it your opinion
that your trouble in carrying on this job is tied into Gosser blocking
the sale of that beer in local 12 ?
Mr. Martin. Yes. I bring that out, Mr. Senator.
Senator Curtis. As briefly as you can.
Mr. Martin. Yes. In other words, beer was put in on tap there,
both beer and ale, as of January 1, 1952. That was put on January
the 1st. Then the 15th I get this notice. As of February the 1st my
services were terminated with the company.
But I would also like to state in regard to that — it makes it look
kind of obvious why I was discharged. A little while after I was dis-
charged the company went to work and put on two salesmen. In
other words, they said they had to eliminate one salesman in the city
of Toledo. They put on two salesmen. I don't know his name, but
the one was Carl Backus. He was put on a month or so after I was
released from the company.
I got a letter from the company where they said they didn't need
any extra salesmen in the city of Toledo. But after 1 left they put
on two.
The Chairman. The Chair is ready to recess at 2 o'clock.
(At this point Senator Mundt withdrew from the hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. I had three exliibits, Tliere is one item that Mr.
Manuel calls to my attention. I am trying to move as fast as I can.
The Chairman. I have other things to do, too. I am not complain-
ing. But we are all crowded for time here.
Senator Curtis. I think maybe thes Chair's suggestion is the thing
to do.
The Chairman. If you can put them in quick, all right. I will stay
another 5 minutes. Let us see if we can finish.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Martin, you made some statements about the
management of local 12 and how it operated and their procedures
that were published in the Toledo Blade back in Februaiy 1951 and
written up bv Gene Fisk ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You also circulated some bulletins when you were
opposing Gosser in the Willys-Overland plant, did you not ?
Mr. Martin. Election, that's right.
Senator Curtis. The things that you stated in tliose articles and in
your circular were true to the best of your knowledge and belief and
you so reaffirm under oath today ^
20208 miPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Martin. I do so, Mr. Senator.
Senator Curtis. I would like to have these identified and offered as
exhibits only.
The Chairman. That may be made exhibit in bulk No. 25.
(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 25" for ref-
erence and may be found in the tiles of the select committee.)
Senator Kennedy. May I ask a couple of questions when you are
finished ?
Senator Curtis. Mr. Manuel has a couple of questions, and then I
am through.
The Chairman. You may proceed.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Martin, one of the 28 charges preferred against
Mr. Gosser by Mr. Billheimer in June 1950, No. 20, is as follows :
It is alleged that Brother Gosser ordered international representatives, local
12 officers and employees, to perform work on the retirement farm, and that
they were further subjected to fines in the event they failed to appear to work.
This is the finding of the international executive board.
There is no supporting evidence that Brother Gosser had ordered anyone to
work on the farms. It was reported to the executive board by Brother Gosser
that international representatives voluntarily agreed to work on the fai-m in
order to minimize expenses of operating the farm. It was further reported
to the international executive board that a number of international representa-
tives had voted voluntarily to contribute $2.50 a week to hire farm employees.
Were you ever ordered by Mr. Gosser to work on the retirement
farm?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Did you work on the farm ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Were you fined your day's pay if you did not show
up?
Mr. Martin. In fact, I didn't show up 2 or 3 days and was fined.
Mr. Manitel. I hand you a letter purported to be from Mr. Gosser
to all international representatives and all full-time officers of local
12. Look at that and see if you can identify it.
The Chairman. Show the letter to the witness.
( The document was handed to the witness. )
Mr. Manuel. Do you recognize that, Mr. Martin?
Mr. MiVRTiN. That is right.
Mr. IVIanuel. Attached to that is another sheet. That says, sched-
ule of days the representatives work at the local 12 retirement farm,
also showing their attendance record.
Do you see for the week of December 13, 191:7 ?
Mr. Martin. I do.
Mr. ]\Ianuel. Do you see there certain people who were present that
week and certain who were absent indicated by an X?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Do you see your name on that under Thursday ? Do
you see an X there indicating you Avere absent ?
Mr. IMartin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Turn back to the original letter, please.
The Chairman. The letter may be made exhibit No. 26 for refer-
ence.
(Letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 26" for reference and
may be found in the files of the select committee.)
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20209
Mr. Manuel. And the statement, too.
The Chairman. Together with attachments, will be made exhibit 26
and exhibit 26-A.
(Statement referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 26-A" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Manuel. Looking at the first paragraph —
Attached is a report given to me for the week of December 13 on the ab-
senteeism on the farm. I am saying to all of you now unless you have a written
excuse from me ahead of time attached to this sheet regardless of your excuse
you might as well stay home, because you are going to pay the penalty fine.
Am I reading correctly ?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. I continue :
I am also adding in this letter a statement to my secretary that as of Monday
morning of each week and as soon as she can, to have this attached and on my
desk for disposal.
The third paragraph :
Might I say here I notice the following were absent : Burny Zawodny with no
reasonable excuse ; Orville Beamer with no reasonable excuse ; Ollie Pecord with
not reasonable excuse ; Harold Kolbe with no reasonable excuse and Toots Mar-
tin, Charles Ballard, Edward Duck, Clayton Rusch and Birdie Rule. When I
figure 10 times $12.50, gives us the sum of $12.5 for our flower fund. Boy, we
are really going to have a treasury. It is up to you guys, not me. I refuse to
grant excuses or accept anything.
Mr. Martin. That is a correct reading.
Mr. Manuel. The names I read in the third paragraph, do they
appear on the schedule attached?
Mr. Martin. They do.
Mr. Manuel. Under those absent, do you see Zawodny ?
Mr. Martin. I do.
Mr. Manuel. Beamer?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Pecord?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Kolbe?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Dean?
Mr. IVIartin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Martin?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. That is you ?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Ballard; that is the original director?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. He had to go to the farm to work ?
Mr. Martin. He has to go, too.
Mr. Manuel. Was he fined if he did not show ?
Mr. Martin. That I can't answer.
Mr. Manuel, It obviously was.
Mr. Martin. He is supposed to be.
Mr. Manuel. Duck and Rusch ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. And Rule ?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
20210 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Manuel. That is now in evidence.
The finding of the international executive board says there is no
supporting evidence that Brother Gosser has ordered anyone to work
on the farms.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Here it is.
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. On their own files.
Mr. Martin. His name is signed.
Senator Kennedy. Did you receive any compensation for your arti-
cles for the Toledo Blade ?
Mr. Martin. For my articles in the Toledo Blade ?
Senator Kennedy. The ones you wrote.
Mr. Martin. For the articles in the Toledo Blade I received no
compensation.
Senator Kennedy. Did you ever get any compensation from them ?
Mr. Martin. I got compensation from them. Not for that.
Senator Kennedy. What did you get the compensation for ?
Mr. Martin. I can explain that. In regards to the statement that
I made to the Toledo Blade regarding the election of local 12 officers,
I informed the Blade through one of the fellows that they should send
a fellow out by giving him a voluntary statement. It wouldn't cost
them and I would not ask a penny in regards to giving a statement.
They sent this fellow out by the name of Gene Fisk and I gave him a
full statement in regard to that. I didn't receive any money. Wlien
I left the Willys-Overland and started in this poultry and fish mar-
ket the records will show that I wasn't making any money.
I went up to Mr. Block, and asked him if he could assist me due
to the fact that I owed a payment on my house and I owed 2 months'
rent at the fish market. My two boys were in service at that time. I
was not getting no financial help from them.
I asked him if he could assist me. He said, "Did you ever get any
money for the story that you put in the Toledo Blade?"
I said, "No, I never received a penny." I told Mr. Fisk at the time I
was not interested in any money. I said I was going to give my state-
ment voluntarily.
Then he went to work and he gave me a check. I forget what it
was, for $200 or $250. That was 6 or 8 months after I made the state-
ment to the Blade and that was on an entirely different basis. That
is how I received the money.
Senator IvENNEDY. Why would he give it to you ?
Mr. Martin. He was liberal. A lot said I should get paid for the
statement I made to the Blade, but I was not interested in the money.
Senator Kennedy. Did you ever receive any compensation from
the Committee To Save Toledo Payrolls?
Mr. Martin. No ; never.
Senator Kennedy. The only money you received was the $250 from
Mr. Block?
(At this point Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Martin. $200 or $250. I don't recall. I wouldn't say. I did
receive some money.
Senator Kennedy. Did you appear at the meeting at which you
were expelled from the union?
Mr. Martin. I did.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20211
Senator Kennedy. You did '?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. Where was the meeting held ?
Mr. Martin. Scott High School Auditorium, It is near local 12.
Senator Kennedy. They had a liearing where you were present?
Mr. Marian. Yes.
Senator Kennedy. That is where they expelled you or tlie other
worker ?
Mr. MAR^riN. They didn't expel anybody else. They just expelled
me.
Senator Kennedy. I thought they expelled the fellow who got in a
fight with you ?
Mr. Martin. No.
Senator Ivennedy. Did the company fire him ?
Mr. Martin. I imagine they did.
Senator Kennedy. I thought you said that you and Arnold Shenof-
sky were expelled for fighting ?
Mr. Martin. Fired ; discharged.
Senator Kennedy. The company discharged ?
Mr. Martin. The company.
Senator Kennedy. I see. The union expelled you. Did they expel
you for the fight or for other things ?
Mr. Martin. That is what I am trying to find out.
Senator Kennedy. What did they tell you ?
Mr, Martin. In other words, they said "conduct unbecoming a
union member." Mr. Ballard is in the room. He can answer why I
was expelled. I don't know. That is what I am trying to find out.
Senator Kennedy. The impression was gi ven in the interrogation
that you were expelled because of the figlit. Was that the reason ?
Mr. Martin. Political fight. I wouldn't call that a political fight.
Senator Ivennedy. It wasn't a fist fight ?
Mr. Martin. I never struck a blow myself. I didn't have a chance.
Senator Kennedy. You were expelled for other things, but you
don't know what ?
Mr. Martin. I have been trying to find out. I have been waiting
7 years to find out.
Senator Kennedy. You were expelled at the meeting at the high
school. Did you ever appeal that to the miion ?
Mr. Martin. I mentioned in my statement I took it up with the
executive shop committee.
Senator Kennedy. You mean after the high school meeting you
appealed to the union ?
Mr. Martin. To the executive shop committee of Willys-Overland
Union.
Senator Kennedy. Have you a copy of that appeal ?
Mr. Martin. I have not.
Senator Kennedy. It was never in writing ?
Mr. Martin. I haven't got no copy at all. You mean in regards
to my appeal ?
Senator Kennedy. That is right.
Mr. Martin. There was a cojjy drawn up by my attorney. That
is on the basis that we had the meeting with the executive shop
committee.
36751— 60— pt. 58 20
20212 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator I^nnedy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Rauh. Mr. Chairman, the UAW has a number of questions.
We also have the Labor Board things that I think you ought to inter-
rogate Mr. Martin on. He went to the Labor Board. The Labor
Board found against him and found he was involved in an alcoholic
brawl there. It seems to me he ought to be interrogated.
The Chairman. Mr. Rauh, during the recess period prepare the
questions that you think should be asked on the basis of these and
submit them to me when we reconvene. I don't have time to prepare
them.
The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock.
(Members of the committee present at the taking of the recess were
Senators McClellan, Mundt, Kennedy, and Goldwater.)
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the select committee recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 p.m., the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The select committee reconvened at 2 p.m., m room 3302, Senate
Office Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select
committee) presiding.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Members of the select committee present at the convening of the
session : Senators McClellan and Curtis.)
The Chairman. Mr. Martin, will you come back on the stand,
ulease
TESTIMONY OF CYHUS MARTIN— Resumed
The Chairman. ]Mr. IMartin, under the rules of the committee,
questions may be submitted to the Chair and to the committee to be
asked of witnesses, and the counsel for the union has submitted some
questions here that may be proper to ask you. I shall ask you these
questions. If I decide that any of them are not pertinent or not
relevant as proper cross-examination or proper interrogation, I will
rule them out. I have not had time to study them, but we can start
with them and we will see.
These questions are being asked you at the request of counsel for
the UAW.
The first question is : Isn't it true that from 1949 through the mid-
dle of 1951, the Toledo Blade was injecting itself into UAW affairs,
and in 1951 was attempting to secure the political defeat within the
union of its incumbent officers in the Toledo area ?
Mr. Martin. Well, in answer to that, Mr. Senator, the only thing
I can say is that the records of the Toledo Blade will prove that.
I just cannot recall.
The Chairman. You would probably remember now whether the
Toledo Blade was interesting itself in UAW affairs in 1951 and was
attempting to secure the political defeat of union officers in the Toledo
area.
Do you recall that, or do you say that that is true or not true ?
Mr. Martin. I just cannot answer that that way, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Or is there any com.ment you want to make on it ?
Mr. Martin. If it so states in the Toledo Blade, then it must be
true.
IIMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20213
The Chairman. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. JNIartin. If it so states in the Toledo Blade, it must be true.
The Chairman. I don't know what it states in the Toledo Blade.
This isn't stated that way. The question is : Isn't it true, or don't you
know it of your knowledge, that from 1949 through the middle of
1951, the Toledo Blade, which I assume is a newspaper publication —
is that right ?
Mr. Martin. I cannot comment on that either way, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Do you know whether this paper that you wrote
articles for was injecting itself into the political affairs of the union
in trying to bring about the clef eat of some of its officers ?
Mr. Martin. On that question I would say "Yes."
The Chairman. I think that that is the same question I have been
asking you.
Do you say that the Toledo Blade was meddling, so to speak, in the
union's affairs with respect to the election of its officers ?
Mr. Martin. Let me ask you this question, Mr. Chairman : Do you
think that I should be harassed here by some members of the committee
on this basis? I was here to go to work and testify in regards to
the activities of local 12, and Mr. Richard Gosser. I don't think that
I am on trial, Mr. Chairman, and I think that these questions are be-
sides the point.
The Chairman. The Chair is not particularly interested in just
what you think about it, I think that the question is quite proper.
You wrote articles for the Toledo Blade, and so you have testified.
Now, the question is here: Was the Toledo Blade injecting itself into
the union affairs and undertaking to bring about the defeat of union
officials in the Toledo area? You have testified and you are subject
to being cross-examined.
Mr. Martin Yes. In regards to that, the. only statement I ever
made was in regard to the way of the conduction of the local union,
the way it was being conducted.
The Chairman. It did publish articles about that ?
Mr. Martin. That is all.
The Chairman. Did it seek to bring about the defeat of the incum-
bent officers of the local or in that local area ?
Mr. Martin. It wasn't in regard to trying to bring defeat to the
incumbent officers of the local, but it was in regard to giving the peo-
ple and tlie workers of the city of Toledo a true picture in regard to
the way the local union was functioning. That was my intent of put-
ting it in the paper.
The Chairman. I am not talking about that.
Mr. Martin. It was not trying to defeat anybody or destroy the
labor movement in any way, shape, or form.
The Chairman. You say it was not your intent. The question is
directed about the publication itself.
During this period of time, did you write some articles for the
Toledo Blade and later receive some money from its publisher? I
think that you testified about that.
Mr. Martin. I answered that.
The Chairman, That you did write some articles and later you re-
ceived $200 or $250 from the publisher ; is that correct ?
Mr. Martin. That is correct. That is what I testified to this
morning, but it wasn't in regard to the article I wrote.
20214 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. But the $200 or $250 was not payment for the
articles you wrote ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. Was it loaned to you ?
Mr. Martin That is right.
The Chairman. Did you repay it ?
Mr. Martin. No, I did not.
The Chairman. Then it was a gift ?
Mr. Martin. It was a gift ; that is right.
The Chairman. You wrote the articles as a gift for the paper, and
later the paper, or publisher, gave you $200 or $250, as a gift?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. Now, in your article, Mr. Martin, you accuse the
Willys people of assisting Mr. Gosser. Is that correct ?
Mr. Martin. Well, I would have to read it to answer that. I would
say this: Tliey didn't hinder him, due to the fact the company was
well aware of the fact of what was going on there. All durmg the
day, they would haul them back and forth from the local union to the
plant, and the administration building was right on the street where
these employees were hauled down to the local union, and they could
see it.
The Chairman. The question is : Do you say now or did you say
then, that the Willys people— and I assume that is the company — the
company people were helping or assisting Mr. Gosser ^
Mr. Martin. I would answer that that way, they sure weren't
hindering him, because tliey let the employees go back and forth down
to the local union to vote.
The Chairman. From what you observed, you believe they were
lielping him ; is that correct ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, I would say "Yes."
And also I would like to add to that, in future testimony that part
of it will be brought out.
Tlie Chairman. What is that?
Mr. Martin. In future testimony before this committee, that part
will be brought out, for further clarification on it.
The Chairman. All right. Didn't you file an unfair labor charge
in 1951 with the National Labor Relations Board claiming that the
company and the union combined to discriminate against you in your
discharge? Did you file such a charge with the National Labor Rela-
tions Board in 1951 ?
Mr. Martin. I think that is correct, Mr. Chairman. I think that
is correct.
Senator Curtis. May I ask a question for clarification there ?
Does this National Labor Relations Board proceeding refer to his
discharge as an employee of the Willys-Overland, or does it have any-
thing to do with his expulsion from the imion for 99 years ?
The Chairman. You may answer that.
Senator Curtis. Does this National Labor Relations Board matter
refer to your job at Willys-Overland ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. To the best of your recollection, it did not I'elate to
your expulsion from the union for 99 years ?
Mr. Martin. No.
The Chairman. All right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20215
No. 5: Didn't the regional director of the XLRB dismiss your
charges ?
Mr. Martin. I think there is a copy of that, to clarify that, Mr.
Chaimian.
The Chairman. Would you recall whether he dismissed them or
not?
Senator Curtis. This was found during the recess, which is docu-
mentaiy evidence.
(A document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. I hand you here a letter from Ellison D. Smith,
Jr., Associate General Counsel for the General Counsel, dated Feb-
ruary 19, 1952, addressed to you, and I will ask you to examine this
letter and state if it is, or if you identify it as the original letter.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. I acknowledge it as such, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right. If you want to keep the original, you
may have it returned to you for your file, but let it be printed in the
record at this point, and then the original may be returned to you.
(The letter referred to follows :)
Office of the General Counsel,
National Labor Relations Board,
Washington, D.C., Fetruary 19, 1952.
Re : Willys Overland Motors, Inc.
Case No. 8-CA-537.
Mr. Cyrus Martin,
Temperance, Mich.
Dear Sir: Your appeal from the regional director's refusal to issue a com-
plaint in the above-captioned case, charging a violation of section 8 (3) and (I)
of the National Labor Relations Act, has been duly considered by the General
Counsel.
The General Counsel sustains the ruling of the regional director. Like the
regional director, the General Counsel concludes that there is insufficient evi-
dence to warrant further proceedings.
Very truly yours,
Ellison D. Smith, Jr.,
Associate General Counsel
(For the General Coimsel).
Carbon copy to :
A. Gilmore Flues, attorney, 1507 Toledo Trust Building, Toledo 4, Ohio
Willys-Overland Motors, Inc., Wolcott Boulevard, Toledo, Ohio
Charles J. Smith, attorney. 240 Huron Street, Toledo, Ohio
UAW-CIO, Local 12, 425 Wiuthrop Street, Toledo 10, Ohio
.John A. Hull, Jr., Director, Sth Region, Cleveland, Ohio
Registered mail return receipt requested.
The Chairman. Didn't the General Counsel of the NLEB uphold
the dismissal ? I believe the letter shows that it did.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. Now, I read you the company's statement on the dis-
charge and ask is it correct? I will read you excerpts from it:
On December 29, 1950, which was the Friday before New Year's Day, Cyrus
Martin was employed in department 187 along with one Arnold Shenofsky and
others. The scheduled shutdown of this department was set for 4 : 30 p.m. that
day, but because some of the employees in the department commenced slowing
down production in anticipation of the long holiday weekend the foreman of the
department announced shortly after 2 p.m. that the department would shut down
at 2 :30 p.m. and the employees would be sent home.
About 2 p.m. or earlier Mr. Martin and others in the department commenced
drinking liquor brought into the department in violation of company rules. Mr.
Martin admitted taking two or three drinks while still at his work station.
20216 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
About 2 : 30 p.m. Arnold Shenof sky wrote a statement with chalk on the belt of
the conveyor which passed between the working stations of the two men making
obscene references to Martin's character.
Cyrus Martin then left his station, which was some distance removed from
Shenofsky's working station, and approached Shenofsky near the place where
Shenofsky's working station was located, and made verbal obscene references to
Shenofsky's character, whereupon a fight occurred between the two men, and both
suffered some injury.
Investigation disclosed to the company's satisfaction that both men were at
fault in instigating the fight, and to maintain future discipline in the depart-
ment, as well as throughout the entire plant, the company discharged both the
employees and has not rehired either of them.
This letter is dated July 6, 1951.
The discharge was purely and simply for disciplinary reasons and had nothing
whatever to do with any pro- or anti-union activities on the part of either em-
ployee. It is the contention of Willys-Overland Motors, Inc., that the charge
filed by Cyrus Martin is without substance or foundation, and the company
furthermore contends
Senator Curtis. What are you reading from now? Is that Mr.
Eauh's letter?
The Chairman. This is a letter from Ritter & Boesel, 240 Huron
Street, Toledo, Ohio, attornej^s for Willys-Overland Motors, Inc., to
Mr. Jolm Vincek, field examiner, National Labor Relations Board,
Eighth Region, 9 Chester Building, Cleveland 14, Ohio, and it is in
regards to Willys-Overland Motors, Inc., 8-CA-357, and I was going
to make this an exhibit, and I was just trying to read the pertinent
parts.
It is the contention of "Willys-Overland Motors, Inc., that the charge filed by
Cyrus Martin is without substance or foundation, and the company furthermore
contends that it must maintain complete control of the beliavior of its em-
ployees on company premises and that it retains the right to discipline em-
ployees in whatever manner it sees fit and proper wherever necessary.
Now, this was sworn to apparently, and it is in blank, and I don't
know who swore to it, and possibly one of the attorneys. I will ask
you to examine this photostatic copy and state if you identify it.
Mr. Martin. I would like to know who swore to that statement
also, Seantor McClellan, due to the fact that the majority of those
statements are false, and I can produce the witness in regard to it.
The Chairman. That is all I am asking. The purpose of this would
be to show the contention that the company made to the NLRB.
Do you recall that it did make those contentions ?
Mr." Martin. It is the. first I know of it right now, and I never
saw a copy of it and I never was informed that such a letter was
sent.
The Chairman. Then you can't testify to it, and you say you don't
know anything about it.
jNIr. JNIartin. It is the first I know of it is right now.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Marttn. I sure wish I liad a copy of it at tlie time.
The Chairman. Let me see if you know about tliis one, then.
Here is a letter, a photostatic copy of a letter, dated December 18,
1951, which is subsequent to this one that I read to you here, dated
December 18, 1951, addressed to you from John A. Hull, Jr., regional
director^ and it reads :
The above-captioned case charging a violation of section 8 of the National
Labor Relations Act as amended, has been carefully investigated and consid-
ered. It does not appear that further proceedings are warranted inasmuch as
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20217
there is iusufficient evidence of violation. I am, therefore, refusing to issue
complaint in this matter.
Then it goes on, and I will ask you to examine this photostatic copy
of the letter which appears to have been addressed to you, and state
if you received that letter.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
(At this point Senator Goldwater entered the hearing room.)
Mr. Martin. Yes, Senator McClellan, I received a copy of this.
The CiiAiRMAX. All right. That may be made exhibit '27.
(Letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 27" for reference and
may be found in the files of the select committee. )
The CnAiK]MAN. Now, I hand you here a photostatic copy of a form
headed "Charge Against Employer," which is apparently your charge
or improper labor practices against the Willys-Overland Motors Co.,
and it bears your signature, and I will ask you to examine it, together
with copies of letters attached, one from John A. Hull, Jr., addressed
to Willys-Overland, dated jMay 31, 1951, and another from Milton
McCreery, secretary, to Mr. John A. Hull, Jr., regional director, and
I Avill ask you to examine those and state if you recognize them.
(The documents vrere handed to the witness.)
(Members of the committee present at this point: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Curtis, and Goldwater.)
The Chairman. First, look at the improper labor practice charge.
Look at the bottom one first, and see if you identify it and your signa-
ture as being a copy of the charge that you filed against the company.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 28.
(The document referred to was marked "Exliibit No. 28" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. See if you can identify the letters attached thereto.
Mr. ]SL\RTiN. I do, Senator.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibits 28-A and B, respec-
tively, in the order of their date.
(The letters referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 28-A and
28-B" for reference and may be found in the files of the select com-
mittee.)
The Chairman. Here is another letter. I don't know whether you
can identify this or not. It is from Ritter & Boesel, attorneys for
Willys-Overland Co., to John Vincek. I don't know whether you can
identify it. If you can't just say so. -
(The document was handed to the witness.)
The Chairman. Can you identify it ?
Mr. Martin. It is the first time I'have seen it.
The Chairman. Clerk, will you place it with this letter of July 6
which is unidentified and hold those separately for the present ?
Mr. Martin. In one of these communications the company says
"both suffered some injury," referring to you and this man vou had the
fight with. Did you hit Shenofsky? I thought you testified this
morning you did not. Did you hit him at all ?
Mr. Martin. I didn't have a chance to strike him one blow, Mr.
Senator. As soon as it happened, he ran out of the building. He
never ran his timecard or anything. I laid on the floor, and the com-
pany ambulance came and picked me up and took me to the hospital.
20218 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
The Chairman. Is he a larger man or smaller ? Did he hit you with
some instrument ?
Mr. Martin. Yes. He admitted that in court. He pleaded guilty to
the charges.
The Chairman. Wliat?
Mr. Martin. He admitted in court. He pleaded guilty to the
charge.
The Chairman. I understand. I interpreted your testimony this
morning to mean that you didn't liit him at all.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. The company says here both of you sustained some
injury.
Mr. Martin. That is wliy I raised the question about the copy.
The Chairman. You don't think he sustained any (
Mr. Martin. No.
The Chairman. You didn't hit him?
Mr. Martin. Positively not.
The Chairman. All right, we have that. The question is in view
of the company's contention that you both had a fight, you say you
never knew why you were expelled. Did you state tliis morning you
didn't know why you were expelled from the union and you are still
trying to find out ?
Mv. Martin. That is right, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The question presented here, which I am asking
you by request, wouldn't you concede tliat helping the Blade — that is
this paper — and the other Toledo employers was ground for expul-
sion? In other words, you w^ere helping the Blade, which it is con-
tended was trying to inject itself itno union politics, and other em-
ployers. Was that not grounds for your expulsion ? That is the ques-
tion. You can answer as you will.
Mr. Martin. I will answer it this way.
Senator Curtis. This is Mr. Rauh's question ?
The Chairman, Yes.
Mr. Martin. I don't think any time when an individual makes a
statement and tells the truth, and nothing but the truth, that he should
be expelled from any organization.
The Chairman. I don't know what the truth is. The truth can be
bad as well as good. I don't know in this case. Under the UAW con-
stitution I understand a member is entitled (a) to receive charges by
registered mail ahead of a meeting when tried, when trial committee
is elected; (b) have counsel of his own choosing at all stages; (c)
speak in his own defense at the meeting where the trial committee
reports; (d) appeal in sequence to the local 12 international executive
board and convention.
Mr. Martin, whicli of these did you do? First I will ask you did
you attend the trial ?
Mr. ;Martin. Did I attend the trial ?
The Chairman. Yes ; your trial.
Mr. Martin. No.
The Chairman. You did not attend your trial ?
Mr. Martin. Tlie only thing I knew these charges were preferred
against me at a local union meeting. I was informed the charges
would be preferred against me at a unit meeting of the Willys-Over-
land unit.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20219
The Chairman, Did you receive charges by registered mail ?
Mr. Martin. I can't recall that, Senator. Maybe I did and maybe
I didn't.
Tlie Chairman. As this question is prepared the constitution re-
quires them in order to try you to see that you receive charges by
registered mail ahead of meeting where trial committee is electeu.
Did you receive that ?
Mr. Martin. I think there is a copy up there. I have a copy of
that. I recall what you are referring to.
The Chairman. Did you receive that?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you have counsel of your own choosing at all
stages ?
Mr. Martin. No; I just went to the unit meeting on my own.
The Chairman. You did not have counsel ?
Mr. Martin. No.
The Chairman. You were not denied counsel ?
Mr. M^vRTiN. I was not denied counsel, and I didn't have any.
The Chairman. You were not denied any. You just didn't have
any. Were you able to speak in your own defense at that meeting?
Mr. Martin. I will answer that this way. I was not able to speak
because as soon as the charges was read, the next order of business
was put on the floor and I recall it very definitely. One fellow by
the name of Joe Valcek got up on the floor and said, "Let us hear
Martin's side of the story," and he was declared out of order, and
the next order of business was put before the membership.
The Chairman. Were you given an opportunity to speak in your
own defense before any vote was taken on the charges against you?
Mr. Martin. No.
The Chairman. You say you were denied that right ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. They read the charges and somebody
got up on the floor and made a motion to accept them.
The Chairman. Did you attempt to get the floor to speak and
answer the charges ?
Mr. Martin. I don't remember, Mr. Senator. I don't think I did
at the time because I made the statement that I would go to work and
take it up individually, and based on that I would like to bring this
out. I wrote a letter to Walter Eeuther, a registered letter, request-
ing a meeting with him and I was replied by a secretary that Mr.
Walter Reuther was not available at the present time and therefore
he could not meet with me. I never did receive any information from
Walter Reuther in regards to a meeting with him.
The Chairman. Do these questions set forth as to what you were
entitled under the constitution, does it set forth correctly your rights
as I have read them ?
Mr. Martin. That would be right.
The Chairman. That would be right ?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
The Chairman. Then you did not undertake to avail yourself of
having counsel present ?
Mr. Martin. No ; because I was informed by my attorney, Gilmore
Flues, that in regards to that it would be useless for me to fight them.
They have money behind them. You haven't got the money to go to
work and fight the case. Therefore you would wind up losing your
20220 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
equity in your home and everything. The best thing you can do is
to get a judgment against Shenofsky and all he has is a daily pay
check, and it would cost you a lot of money to fight the case. I realized
that, and therefore that is why I didn't proceed along them lines.
The Chairman. Was it for that same reason that you did not vm-
dertake to defend yourself at the meeting by asking for the floor and
speaking in your own defense ?
Mr. Martin. Would you please repeat that ?
The Chairman. Was it for the same reason, that you thought it
was useless, on the advice of your counsel, that you did not under-
take to get the floor at the meeting after the charges were read against
you and make a speech or speak in behalf of your own defense?
Mr. Martin. I get your question, Senator. I will answer it this
way. Regardless of what I had said, they went to work and uphold
the findings of the trial conunittee and suspend me for 99 years be-
cause the meeting was stacked with all the stewards from the Willys-
Overland. In other words, thej'^ vote as is recommended by the execu-
tive shop committee or whoever might be involved at the meeting.
Regardless of what I said in my behalf, they would still go to work and
expell me for 99 years at that meeting. I had been in the labor move-
ment, and at Willys-Overland long enough to know that is how it
operates.
The Chairman. I am not saying that is the way it is.
Mr. Martin. I realize that.
The Chairman. I am trying to get the record straight that you
did not actually undertake to defend yourself at that meeting.
Mr. Martin. That is right. Like I told you, this Joe Valcek
wanted to hear my side, and then they moved the next order of business.
The Chairman. Then someone did ask that you be heard, and in-
stead of granting that request, they moved on to the next order of
business.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you protest that action then and ask to be
heard ? Did you, yourself ?
Mr. Martin. No.
The Chairman. I think I have covered the questions. There are
two letters here that are not identified. Later if they are important
we can find someone to identify them.
Mr. Martin. Senator, I would like to point out one thing with
regards to when Mr. Motsinger was testifying that counsel for the
UAW tried to belittle him on the basis that a question was asked by
you to Mr. Motsinger if he had ever organized a plant. The answer
to that was "No." In other words, they were trying to belittle the
fellow. That question is not going to be asked of me today because
I have the answer. I organized 11 plants in the city of Toledo of tlie
UAW all by myself. So what I am getting at it doesn't hurt what
kind of organizer you are or what kind of work you are doing, if
they want to put a hatchet job on you, they will put it on, if you don't
stay in line.
The Chairman. You are allowed to make that statement.
Senator Curtis. I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman, that the
point of presenting this is not that Willys-Overland discharged both
of these men. The point is that the man who was arrested, plead
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20221
guilty, and fined by the courts was found another job and approved
for the job by union officials who had the authority over the hiring
and was later made an international representative, and that Mr.
Martin here was expelled from the union for 99 years. I would like
to have Mr. Martin examine this letter.
The Chaikmax. The letter may be presented to the witness. Give
the date of it, Senator.
Senator Curtis. It is dated April 26, 1951, to Mr. Cyrus Martin,
and it is signed by D. W. Seretsky, secretary, WO imit, UAW.
The Chairman. You may examine that letter and state if you
identify it, Mr. Martin.
(The docmnent was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. Could I read it into the record ?
Senator Curtis. It is very short. I wish you would.
The Chairman. Wait a moment. Do you identify it?
Mr, Martin, I identify it. I would like to read it into the record.
The Chairman. "What is it?
Mr. Martin. A letter to me from the secretary of the Willys-Over-
land unit.
The Chairman. You may read it.
Mr. Martin (reading) :
Mr. Cyrus Martin.
Dear Sir and Brother: At the Willys-Overland unit meeting of April 20, 1951,
held at Scott High School Auditorium, the trial committee which was set up in
your case gave their report and presented the following recommendations to
the body :
No. 1, that you be found guilty as charged.
I am trying to find out what it is.
No. 2, that you be expelled from the International Union UAW-CIO for a
period of 99 years.
These recommendations were concurred with by the body at this meeting.
Fraternally yours,
D. W. Serotsky,
Secretary, Willys-Overland Unit, CIO.
The Chairman. Is that the meeting that you attended that I inter-
rogated you a few minutes ago ?
Mr. Martin. Yes ; the meeting of April 20.
The Chairman. That is the one we were referring to when I was
interrogating you a few moments ago ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairjian. Did they announce their concurrence with those
findings, and in the sentence imposed while you were present in the
meeting ?
Mr, Martin. In other words, they didn't specificall}^ charge, that
is what I am trying to find out here, what the charges actually were.
They brought out conduct unbecoming a union member. You are,
therefore, fomid guilty.
The Chairman, In other words, was it that night or that meeting
that I interrogated you about a while ago and to which this letter re-
fers that you were present at that meeting? Did jou hear them say
there that night that they sustained these recommendations, that was
the order and findings of the union ? In other words, did you know
they had done that? Did you hear and know they had done that to
you before you left the union hall that night ?
20222 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Martin. No; Senator McClellan, this was sent to me after
that meeting. In other word's, that was the finding of the meeting.
The Chairman. I understand it was sent to you after the meeting. I
am asking you if what they said occurred there in that letter actually
took place in your presence while you were in the union hall.
Senator Curtis. Senator McClellan means, did they tell you that
night that you were going to be expelled for 99 years, or was the deci-
sion given to you later ?
The Chairman. If they are there and acted on it, when he was
present, somebody wanted to hear his side of it — evidently they made
some decision because this letter made a decision. Were you present
when the decision was made ? Did you hear it announced there that
night before the letter was ever written to you that they concurred in
the findings of the trial committee, and that you were suspended for
99 years ?
Mr. Martin, If my memory serves me right. Senator McClellan^
in regard to the 99 years, it was not mentioned at that meeting. In
other words, as to expulsion for 99 years, I recall it only at the time
when I received this letter. I did not know how long I was going to
be suspended. I was just suspended from the union, and now the
length of time I was suspended, I don't know if it was decided after-
ward, or what.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Martin, it was after you were expelled
for 99 years, the man that hit you and was fined, got a job and you
did not, and he later became international representative, and that is
the matter you wrote Walter Reuther and asked his help about, is
it? That is about this deal of you being expelled? Tliat is what you
wrote Reuther about ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You got a letter back from his secretary that he
was busy with something else ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Now do you know Randolph Gray ?
Mr. Martin. Very well. Senator.
Senator Curtis. How long have you known him, roughly ?
Mr. Martin. Oh, 18 years.
Senator Curtis. Would you say he is out of his mind ?
Mr. Martin. I think after he gets done testifying, evervbwiy will
realize he is not out of his mind.
Senator Curtis. You would say he was not ?
Mr. Martin. I sure would.
Senator Curtis. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Martin. If he is out of his mind, there are a lot of crazy people
walking around different cities.
The Chairman. Now we want call him as a witness, and we will
have a chance to observe him.
Mr. Martin. I am just answering the way I feel about it, Senator.
The Chairman. You are answering, and I don't know about this
procedure. You will say now we are going to get a witness, and you
are asking if he is out of his mind.
Mr. Martin. I w^ill say he has a very sane mind.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20223
Senator Curtis. I will explain. It is in the printed record that the
committee and the public were informed, and it is in the printed record,
by an employee of this committee that Mr. Gray was out of his mind.
The Chairman. All right. You say he is not.
Mr. Martin. I sure will say that
The Chairman. You swear to it ?
Mr. Martin. If he is crazy, there are thousands of people walking
the streets crazy.
The Chairman. All right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Manuel has a question or two.
The Chairman. Let us proceed.
Mr. Manuel. Another one of tliose 28 charges filed by Mr, Duck-
worth and Mr. Billheimer in June of 1950 was as follows: That is
charge 20-C :
Brother Gosser has imposed a system of fines on the employees of local 12 for
being late for work, a system which would not be tolerated if imposed by any
employer with whom the union has a contract.
Finding : There is no supporting evidence to this allegation. Brother Gosser
reported to the executive board that no local employee to his knowledge had ever
been fined for being tardy.
Do you hear me.
Mr. Martin. For being what?
Mr. Manuel. For being tardy. Were you ever fined for being
tardy ?
Mr. Martin. I sure was. I was fined from 75 cents to a whole day's
pay, and according to how late you were. In other words, they had a
schedule set up.
Mr. Manuel, Were you a local employee at the time ?
Mr. Martin. I sure was.
Mr. Manuel. I will hand you what purports to be a letter dated
Marcli 8, 1949, the original apparently, signed by Mr. Gosser, to you.
Attached thereto is what purports to be a copy of a receipt dated
March 18, 1949, received from Toots Martin, 75 cents, signed Louise
Scliultz. I will ask you if you can identify those.
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. Has this been presented to the witness ?
Mr. Manuel. He has not examined it yet.
Tlie Chairman. The Chair hands you a letter addressed to you,
dated March 8, 1949, and it says :
To Cyrus Martin from Richard Gosser.
Subject: Tardiness.
Will you examine it and state if you identify it ?
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. I sure recall receiving such a letter.
The Chairman. The letter may be made exhibit 29.
(The letter referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 29" for reference
and may be found in the files of the select committee.
The Chairman. Did you pay the fine there assessed ?
Mr. Martin. I sure did.
The Chairman. How did you pay it, by check ?
Mr. Martin. In cash, and there were no checks and it was all cash
moneys, Senator McClellan.
20224 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Manuel. Mi-. Martin, will you hold that and see if I am reading
correctly the first paragraph of that letter :
In cbeeking over the itineraries, I find that on January 26, you did not check
in until 9 :30 a.m., and on January 31, it was 9 :20. This would mean a fine of
75 cents for each day, or $1.50 you owe. I would like to say now that these
fines should be paid to Roy Schultz, or whoever has the itinerary, not later
than Friday, March 11.
Am I reading correctlj^ ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel, (reading) :
I think you understand the rules enough to know that all fines sliould be
paid on the very day you are late. After you pay the fine if you feel you have
a justifiable excuse, you should then write me a letter and I will see that the
money is refunded to you if I feel you are entitled to it. The girl in charge
of the itinerary does not have a right to excuse anyone for tardiness. No one
has that authority except myself. If I start to giving the girls authority for ex-
cusing anybody, God alone knows hov/ far they will go. Therefore, I have in-
structed all of them that they should collect the fine immediately. Thanking
you for your cooperation, which I know I will receive, and with kindest regards,
allow me to remain, fraternally yours, Richard T. Gosser.
Have I read that correctly ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Very well. Now do you see a little sentence up there
which has been written in in ink.
This fine charged in error?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
Mr. JSIanuel. Apparently, is this correct, that once you pointed
out that you had not been late on those days, your fine was forgiven
you. Is that what that indicates :
This fine charged in error —
and you had the receipt ?
Mr. ]VL\RTiN. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Which is attached to the letter ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Is that correct ?
Mr. Martin. That is correct.
Mr. Mi^NUEL. Now I hand you what purports to be a photostatic
copy — or I will delay that. Did you ever pay a larger fine than 75
cents ?
Mr. Martin. Oh, I paid a whole day's pay already for being late.
In other words, if you come in at noon, you miglit as well stay home
because you have to turn in your whole day's pay.
Mr. Manuel. What happened to that fine, that fine money?
Mr. Martin. That is w^hat I would like to know, and it has always
been a mystery to me.
Mr. Manuel. It was collected by Miss Louise Schultz, is that cor-
rect?
Mr. Maritn. Well, Miss Louise Schultz or whoever was at the desk
at the outside of Mr. Gosser's office, and difterent ones.
Mr. Manuel. Who was Miss Schultz at that time ?
Mr. ISIartin. She was one of the secretaries up thei'e in his office.
I tliink there were three girls involved up there.
Mr. Manuel. One of Mr. Gosser's secretaries ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20225
Mr. AIaxuel. Do you know where the money went after she col-
lected it?
]Mr. Martin. I imagine it was turned over to i\Ir. Gosser, naturally.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know whether or not it went to the flower
fund?
Mr. Martin. I don't know where it went, and we never did hear. I
never did hear,
Mr. Manl-el. Veiy well. You never saw any accountmg, did jou,
of the fine money ?
Mr, Martin. I brought that out very definitely, and I never knew
how much money was taken in and how much was spent and how lauch
was in reserve.
Mr. Manuel. I hand you what purports to be a photostatic copy of
another letter dated February 21, 1946, from Richard Gosser to Cyrus
Martin, and I will ask you if you can identify that.
(The document was handed to thechaimian.)
The Chairman. This purports to bo a letter from Richard Gosser to
you dated February 21, 1946, See if you can identify it.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. I recognize the letter, Mr. Manuel.
Mr. Manuel. Did you receive that from Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. Martin. I sure did.
Mr, Manuel. Would you be cood enough to read the first paragraph
of that letter?
The Chairman. Do you want it made an exhibit ?
Mr. Manuel, We want it an exhibit.
Mr. Martin (reading) :
February 21, 194U.
Cyrus Martin,
Organizer, Local 12, VAW-CIO.
Dear Brother Martin : Out of discussion I heard at the meeting Saturday,
February 9, it seemed to me more or less I was put on the spot for not having
everybody pay their equity into the flower fund. I don't completely subscribe
that you, Martin, are speaking for all of the fellows, but I may be wrong. As it
is now, an international representative pays $7.50 duty fine each week and if he
is located in Toledo, also pays an additional $1 fine for PAC membership and $1
fine for not getting ads for the yearbook also. He pays for all of the times he is
late or absent, plus $10 weekly donation to the GM strike fund. This is a total
of $19.50 plus whatever he has incurred in fines for tardiness.
Mr. Manut:l, Now during that time you paid in $19 plus, did you
not, each week ?
Mr. Martin. The letter so states, ,
Mr, Manuel, In addition to the separate fines which might be
imposed for your being late or absent.
Mr. Martin. That is correct.
The Chairman. Wi\Sit is this being late for ? Late to where ?
Mr, Martin, Late to report on duty. In other words, we had to be
on duty at 9 o'clock in the morning, and if we had tire trouble or
something
Th% Chairman. It was working at your job and 3^ou were penalized
if you were not on your job at the regular hour ?
Mr. Martin. At the international office, that is right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I might call attention to the fact
that when this matter went befoi-e the UAW international board in one
of the allegations, 2-C, it was alleged that Brother Gosser had im-
20226 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
posed a system of fines on the employees of local 12 for being late, and
here is the finding, which is obviously false, and known to be false :
There is no supporting evidence to this allegation. Brother Gosser reported
to the executive board that no local employee to his knowledge had ever been
fined for being tardy.
The Chairman. I think Mr. Gosser testified that way, didn't he?
Senator Curtis. I tliink probably he did, yes.
The Chairman. The letter may be made exhibit No. 30.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 30" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
(At this point the following membei-s were present: Senators Mc-
Clellan, Kennedy, and Curtis.)
Mr. Manuel. I will hand you, Mr. Martin, what purports to be an
official publication of local 12. It contains some pictures, among
which is your own handsome countenance. Will you please look at
that and see if you can identify it ? I just want it made an exhibit for
reference.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. Yes, I recognize it.
Mr. IVIanuel. I would like to make that an exhibit for reference.
The Chairman. What does it prove ?
Mr. Manuel. The officei-s of local 12 pictures and the officers of the
region tliat Mr. Gosser was director.
Tlie Chairman. Does the publication so state ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. Regional director and local imion
officers.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit 31, for reference.
(The photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 31" for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Senator Kennedy. What doas that all prove, this 1946 business
about the fines ? Wliat is that proving ?
Mr. Manuel. I think it primarily proves that these charges were
made by Mr. Duck and Mr. Billheimer to the international, to the
international board. As you may know the international executive
board heard all these charges and found there was no evidence to sus-
tain the charges. It proves there was evidence. All they had to do
was to go to their own files and get copies of this letter, and Mr. Gos-
ser's own words signed by him where he had imposed fines. Instead
the executive board said there was no such evidence.
Senator ICennedy. Where do they say that?
Senator Curtis. Right in here.
Senator Kennedy. It depends on what kind of fines we are talking
about. The fines we are talking about are rather routine fines which
are imposed for being late at meetings. Are you stating that they
stated — these are the fines not coming to work late for the company
but coming to work late for the union, is that correct ?
Mr. Manuel. That is right. Mr. Martin, when you were an inter-
national representative assigned to Mr. Gosser's staff, were you ever
directed by Mr. Gosser to go from plant to plant taking up contribu-
tions ostensibly for the summer camp ?
Mr. Maritn. Plant to plant and also different local unions.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Gosser give you a list of people you were to
solicit on behalf of the local 12 siunmer camp ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20227
Mr. Martin. As a rule he did.
Mr. Manuel. I would like to hand you what purports to be a copy
of a letter dated September 2, 1949, from Mr. Kichard Gosser, this
is an original, to you, Mr. Toots Martin, and attached thereto is
a rather thick list of donors, they are called, and then two dates, a
column for 1948 and a column for 1949. I will ask you if you can
identify that.
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
(At this point Senator Gold water entered the hearing room.)
The Chairman. All right. Present it to the witness.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. INIartin. I recognize it, Mr. Manuel.
Mr, Manuel. Is it what it purports to be ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. The letter is very short. Would you read that, please ?
Mr. Martin (reading) :
Mr. Toots Martin, international representative, region 2XB, NAW-CIO, Sep-
tember 2, 1949.
Doar Brother Martin : Attached is a copy of the form that has been made up
that I promised I would give you. It is your responsibility to contact each one
until you show some kind of donation in the 1949 column.
Mr. Manuel. If you will look at that, turn the letter over, and you
will see two columns.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr, Manuel. First you see a column, "Donor." You have certain
employers and persons to be solicited. The first one is local 12 and
others are various employers, Willys-Overland, Driggs Dairy, and so
forth. Do you see amounts opposite those names for 1948 ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, I do.
Mr. Manuel. Do you see opposite certain other donors' amounts
entered in that 1949 column ?
Mr. Martin. That is right,
]\Ir. Manuel. Would you turn to the last page and tell me the totals
of both those columns? You see a column on the last page for 1948,
the total solicitations being $15,400.
Mr, Martin. Just a minute.
Mr. Manuel. The last page.
Mr. Martin. 1948 column shows $15,433. In the 1949 column it
shows $10,540.50,
Mr. Manuel. They represent amounts which were ostensibly do-
nated to the summer camp, is that correct?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr, Manuel. By these various donors?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. You received the copy you hold in your hand, did
you not?
Mr. Martin. Tliat is right.
Mr. Manuel. I will now hand you another.
The Chairman. This may be made exhibit No. 32.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 32 "for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Manuel. I will now hand you a copy of another document in
three pages which purports to be a list of certain other people. There
36751— 60— pt. 58 21
20228 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
is certain writing opposite some of the names and amounts, and I will
ask you to identify that. I will more specifically ask you, Is that a
list that was made up on the basis of the ones you just had? In
other words, those that were not covered by this date were to be
covered by you in this list?
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman, Here are three pages of typewritten names with
some pen notations thereon. Will you examine these three pages and
state if you identify them, and if so what are they ?
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. I recognize them.
Mr. Manuel. Is that a list that was made up based on the first
list you examined of those employers and contributors who had not at
that time been contacted? Is this a list you were to contact and
solicit ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. On the list you now have, do you see certain writing
in ink there ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
]Mr. JManuel. Is some of that your own handwriting ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Does it show amounts or the action that you took,
that is, that you contacted certain of these people and what action was
taken? Whether you got checks or cash or promises of checks or
cash or botht
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Turn over to pa^e 2.
The Chairman. That list may be made exhibit No. 32-A.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 32-A" for ref-
erence and may be found in tlie files of the select committee.
Mr. Manuel. Page 2. Do you see on page 2, the 11th name from
the top, the name of Tony Paul ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know who Tony Paul is ?
Mr. Martin. I never met the gentleman. All I know is what I
heard of him.
Mr. Manuel. "Wliat did you hear ?
Mr. ]\L\RTiN. I heard he was in the gambling rackets, slot machine
racket.
Mr. Manuel. He was and is ?
Mr. Martin. As far as I know.
Mr. Manuel. Wliat is that little notation opposite Mr. Paul's
name?
Mr. Martin. I was informed, "Do not contact for Mr. Gosser."
Mr. Manuel. Did that mean Mr. Gosser was going to contact Mr.
Paul himself for his donation ?
Mr. Martin. I imagine that was the theory behind it.
Mr. INIanuel. Do you see further down that same page several other
names? Some have asterisks after them. One has a line drawn at
the bottom.
Mr. ]VL\RTiN. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. "Wliat does that notation say ?
Mr. Martin. "Do not contact for Mr. Gosser," signed "E. D.," El-
gida Donovan, who was one of the secretaries.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20229
Mr. Manuel. What was the significance of that? You were not
to cover these ? You were to cover the others ?
Mr IVIartin. That is right. Some motive of his that he woukl have
to explain, Mr. ManueL I never did find out the reason why. I
was just informed not to contact them.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know whether any of those people are in the
gambling business, like Benny Fretti ?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
Mr. Manuel. Is he one of the gamblers ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Senator Kennedy. Is there some evidence that there have been
gamblers ?
Mr. Manuel. We will have some, Senator Kennedy.
Senator Kennedy. Does he know about it ?
Mr. Manuel. I just asked him.
Senator Kennedy. You said two or three other people were in the
gambling business.
Mr. ]\Iartin. Somebody tells me something, I take it for granted it
was true. I was told that. I don't know the gentleman. If I met
him on the street, I wouldn't know him from a load of hay.
Senator Kennedy. I know it is the thesis of this hearing that you
believe something is true if somebody told you. How do you know
it is true? If somebody told you, who told you? Conclusions have
been drawn that these people are gamblers.
Mr. Martin. Are you referring to Tony Paul ?
Senator Kennedy. I am referring to the three men.
Mr. Martin. I am well aware of the fact that the Fretti brothers
because they had pinball machines throughout the city of Toledo. .
Senator Kennedy. What year was that ?
Mr. Martin. Several years back. They must have had it for a
period of maybe 10 or 15 years. That is what they did practically all
their life. The Fretti brothers. That is a known fact in Toledo.
Senator Kennedy. What about the other names ?
Mr. IVIartin. Benny Aronoff. There is another one. He used to
run a big crap game in the city of Toledo. He is deceased now. But
he used to run big crap games. So did Benny Aronoff. He was an-
other gambler, based on dice, slot machines, and punchboards and
everything else. He had all kinds of rackets.
Mr. Manuel. Are these members, Mr. Martin, of what is loosely
termed "the underworld" in Toledo ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. It was always known as such.
Mr. Manuel. The documents you have indicate that $15,000 was
taken up m 1948, $10,000 plus in 1949 for the summer camp. Do you
know whether or not that money was given to Mr. Gray, who was
then financial secretary of local 12 ?
Mr. Martin. I don't think it has, but I think Mr. Gray will answer
that when he is testifying. I don't think he received any of it. He
never told me he received any of it.
jNIr. Manuel. What you took up did you give it to Mr. Grav ^
Mr. Martin. I did not. '
Mr. Manuel. Wasn't he financial secretary ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Shouldn't he have gotten this money ?
Mr. Martin. I would say so.
20230 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Manuel. It was for the local 12 summer camp.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. And it was owned by local 12 ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. And Mr. Gray was financial secretary of local 12 ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Instead, who got the money ?
Mr. Martin. It went upstairs.
Mr. Manuel. Upstairs to whom ?
Mr. Martin. Mr. Gosser's office. It was turned over to one of the
secretaries. There were several of them. In other words, the money
collected, that is where I turned them in.
Mr. Manuel. When you were international representative what
were your official duties ? What were you to do ? Wliat were you paid
to do? . ,
Mr. Martin. I was paid to organize plants, negotiate contracts, and
take care of grievances.
Mr. Kennedy. Before you go on, may I see that document? We
pass over these things so quickly I don't know what the point is.
Senator Curtis. We are trying to save time, counsel.
Mr. Kennedy. Let us not produce documents and then not talk
about them,
Mr. Manuel. You were paid to organize plants and to negotiate
contracts and to service the local contracts ; is that correct ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. In addition to your various excursions into the plants
to take up solicitations for the summer camps which may or may not
have gone to the summer camp, were you in addition assigned certain
duties by Mr. Gosser, such as selling raffle books or collecting for raffle
books ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Did you do that on your own time or on union time ?
Mr. Martin. Union time.
Mr. Manuel. I will hand you now what purports to be a copy of a
letter dated October 11, 1949, from Mr. Gosser to you, attached to
which is another schedule. I will ask you to examine those, and see if
you can identify them.
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. Here is a letter dated apparently October 11, 1949,
to you from Eichard Gosser, subject: "Baffle tickets"; and it has some
names attached. Will you examine it and identify it ?
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. I recognize it.
Mr. Manuel. It is a short letter.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 32-B.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 32-B" for ref-
erence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Manuel. Let me read it. It is dated October 11, 1949, to Toots
Martin from Kichard Gosser, subject : "Eaffle tickets."
Mrs. Donovan has given you a breakdown list of who still owes on the raffle
tickets. I don't want to play games with you. If it is not closed out soon, we
will be fooling around with it when we start the other raffle.
Signed, Fraternally, Richard Gosser.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20231
It has a little P.S.
Further, Cyrus, attached is a list of who still owes. Take it name for
name and give me a written report until this thing is up to date. If this
is not done in al)out 1 calendar week, I am not going to take you to the
Ohio State-Michigan football game with me.
Have I read that correctly?
Mr. Martin. That is right. I didn't happen to go to the game.
Mr. Kennedy. What is this raffle for?
Mr. JVIanuel. We will try it.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the raffle for?
Mr. Martin. I recall it very well. This is in regards to a station
wagon that was purchased by local 12, and it was to be raffled off, and
the money that was derived from the raffle tickets was to go to local
12 summer camp.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the summer camp for ?
Mr. Martin. What is the summer camp for?
Mr. Kennedy. Who was the summer camp for ?
Mr. Martin. For children of local 12.
Mr. Kennedy. Is the purpose of this point to commend Mr. Grosser
for raising money for a summer camp for underprivileged children
of Ohio?
Mr. Manuel. I would rather doubt it. It condemns him. We have
not developed it fully.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the other list that we rushed over so quickly
to save time ?
The Chairman. Let us ask the witness the question.
Mr. Kennedy. What is the Toots Martin list? We rushed over
this exhibit 32-A, and we were asked about some names on the list.
What is this list?
Mr. Martin. That is a list for donations to contact these people to
donate to the support of local 12 summer camp.
Mr. Kennedy. This is again to get peox:)le to donate money to the
summer camp?
Mr. Martin. That is right. This was in regards to raffling off a
station wagon that was purchased by local 12 from the Willys- Over-
land.
Mr. Kennedy. All for underprivileged children; is that correct?
Mr. Martin. Supposedly underprivileged children but I never
heard of any underprivileged children going there. You had to be
loyal and pay.
Mr. Kennedy. Did anybody else other than underprivileged chil-
dren get the money ? Do you know of anybody else other than under-
privileged children who received any money ?
Mr. Martin. Nobody said the children received any money.
Mr. Kennedy. Do you know anybody else that got any of the
money ?
Mr. Martin. I know where the money was turned in to. It was
turned in to upstairs into Mr. Gosser's office. Wliat became of the
money he will have to answer. I can't answer that.
Mr. Kennedy. That is what I want to make sure we get straightened
out. You are not saying that Mr. Gosser got the money. The money
was for the camp for underprivileged children. I feel he should be
commended for this.
20232 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Martin. You do?
Mr. Kennedy. I want to be sure that we get the record straight?
Mr. Martin. That is your opinion. Before this hearing is over, I
think you will see a different light.
Mr. Kennedy. That is fine. As far as we go, I want to be sure what
the facts are.
The Chairman. Did you ever see any children at this camp ?
Mr. Martin. Did I ever see any children at the summer camp?
Lots of them.
The Chairman. Then he did have cliildren out there ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. And there was a camp for the children?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. And children were carried there from members of
the local ?
Mr. Martin. That is right, most of them, though, their folks had to
pay for their keep while they attended the summer camp.
The Chairman. In other words, the only complaint in this thing is
that while it is perfectly all right to raise the money by raffle and solic-
itation and donations, the only question is was the money actually
used for the purpose for which it was solicited and raised, is that
correct ?
Mr. Martin. That would be correct.
The Chairman. There is no question about the motive as announced
that it was for a summer camp, to maintain it and for the welfare of
children. That you all knew and agreed to ?
Mr. Martin. That was the intent. That is why local 12 went to
work and furnished the money to buy the station wagon.
The Chairman. Also to buy the camp, I guess.
Mr. Martin. I didn't get you.
The Chairman. And also to provide the camp.
Mr. Martin. That was the intent of it.
Mv. Manuel. Mr. Martin, I will hand you another list of about
six pages.
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. Let us get these moving. If you have any more,
let us get them in and then the real question and the crux would be
whether this money was used for that purpose or if somebody
absconded with the money and misappropriated it. Here are five or
six pages apparently dated September 27, 1949, called raffle tickets not
returned. Will you check tliat and see if you identify it ?
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. I identify it.
The Chairman. It may be made exhibit No. 32-C.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 32-C" for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Manuel. Is that a further breakdown of a list you just ex-
amined ? If you will examine this, you will notice on the first page,
or rather the last page, it says —
Raffle tickets not complete as of 9/8/49.
Do you see that ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Manuel. That indicates those who had not accounted for either
the books or the money, is that correct ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20233
Mr. Martin. That is ri^lit.
Mr. Manuel. If you look at the first page —
Eaffle tickets not returned as of 9/27/49.
Mr. j\L\RTiN. That is right.
Mr. jVLvnuel. As of this date when you got this list those people
indicated on there had not turned in either the tickets or the money,
is that right ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. JManuel. And you were asked to go down this list and visit
those people who had not turned in either the books or the money ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. And you did that and your action is indicated on here.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Getting back to the moneys which you took up for
that raffle tickets. What did you do with the money ?
Mr. ]\Iartin. I turned it in upstairs to one of the girls at the desk.
In other words, all our donations to the summer camp, our raffle ticket
and all that, had to be turned in on the fourth floor to one of the girls
that was in the office. She so made a record in regard to that.
Mr. Manuel. If this money was for a local 12 summer camp, why
was not it turned into Mr. Kandolph Gray, who was financial secre-
tary?
Mr. ]\£\RTiN. The only one that can answer that is Mr. Gosser.
Mr. JManuel. You know it was turned over to his office.
Mr. Martin. Definitely.
Mr. Manuel. You do iiot know that it was turned over to Mr. Gray ?
Mr. Martin. I do not know. Mr. Gray will answer that.
Mr. Manuel. You do not know whether it was spent for under-
privileged children at the summer camp ?
Mr. Martin. I do not know what happened to the money.
Mr. ]VL\nuel. The purpose of the summer camp was to provide a
summer home or a place where the children of the local 12 members
could go and visit and have a good time in the summer ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Do you know whether or not it was used exclusively
for that purpose ? I believe you said that some of the children who
visited that camp paid for it or else their parents paid for their keep ?
Mr. Martin. In other words, those who could afford it and the
folks were working, and I would say 90 percent of them, their folks
was working, they paid so much for the children. It would be 2 weeks
for boys and 2 weeks for girls, and so forth. They paid so much a
week, $12 or $10 a week for each week they were there.
Mr. Manuel. I will hand you another document which is in hand-
writing, one page. It purports to have certain names there and oppo-
site the number of tickets and telephone numbers, and see if you can
identify that.
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. Look at it.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Mr. Martin. I identify it.
The Chairman, That will be made exhibit No. 32-D.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 32-D" for
reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Mr. Manuel. What is that?
20234 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Martin. This is a list of local union presidents in the Toledo
area or local union representatives. It states here, Bill Cook received
$100 Bill Cook is a business agent for the taxicab drivers for the city
of Toledo. Franz Berlacher, 100 tickets. He was the business agent
for the Milk Drivers Union. Chester Capella, 100 tickets. He was a
representative or business agent for the Amalgamated Clothing
Workers. . , , . ^ j
The Chairman. That is enough. Those tickets they let out and
charged to these folks in order to try to sell them.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. IManuel. Did Mr. Gosser himself give you this list or put those
tickets out for sale? ,. ,. ■, -r .i i xi,-
Mr. Martin. I can't recall that, Mr. Manuel. In other words, this
is my writing here. I must have been told from a list to take down a
certain amount of names or a list was handed to me and I copied them
down and I had to contact these different fellows in regard to them
taking 100 tickets and selling them or paying for them themselves.
Mr. Manuel. You had to contact them for the money and either seU
the tickets or get the money.
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. These people are agents for other unions wliich are
not UAW unions ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Isn't there a Mr. Larry Steinberg ?
Mr. Martin. Like I say, Chester Capella is Amalgamated Clothing
Workers.
Mr. Manuel. Is Mr. Larry Steinberg on there ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Who was he?
Mr. Martin. At that time he was connected with the CIO. In
other words, I think he was with the Textile Workers Union. Due
to the fact why I say that, Harry Carr, which is down here, he was
a business agent for the Teamsters Union, but at the present time
Larry Steinberg became president of the Teamsters Union, and he
was in some other category and I think it was with the Amalgamated
Clothing Workers or the Office and Retail Clerks and something.
Mr. Manuel. Mr. Gosser did use business agents of other locals
also to push his raffle tickets ; is that right ?
Mr. Martin. That is right. This so indicates.
The Chairman. Wliat would be wrong with that? I am perfectly
willing if you have anything in substance here to get it. But they
put on raffles and so forth to support this farm or rest camp or what-
ever it is. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with asking
friends of other unions to help? Is there anything wrong with it?
Mr. Martin. I would say this. There is nothing wrong if we was
assured that the funds was used for this.
The Chairman. The whole crux of it is where did the money go?
Mr. IVIartin. That is right.
The Chairman. You raised a lot of money. That has been shown.
Wliere did the money go? Do you know where the money went?
Mr. Martin. No ; I would like to find out.
Mr. Manuel. One other very short matter. I believe you testified
earlier this morning that you were for some years a member of the
flying squadron at Willys-Overland. I believe you said that the
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20235
flying squadron participated in such activities as burials and perhaps
marching in the Labor Day parades,
Mr. Martin. Entertainment committees.
Mr. JVIanuel. And perhaps at times violence on the picket lines.
Mr. Martin. A certain amount of them, yes.
Mr. Manuel. Were most of the members of the flying squadron in
the Willys-Overland plant ?
Mr. Martin. The flying squadron consisted — all of the flying
squadron consisted of the Willys-Overland plant.
Mr. Manuel. Are they what is colloquially known out there as the
goon squad?
Mr. Martin. Some of them refer to them as that, that is right. _
Mr. Manuel. They were more or less the faction closely associated
with Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. JVIartin. A certain percentage of them were. Others were just
in there to dress it up. That is the best way to say it.
Mr. Manuel. Did most of them take their directions from Mr.
Gosser ?
Mr. Martin. Either that way or through Mr. Gosser.
Mr. Manuel. Did they wear uniforms at times ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, we had shirts and caps.
Mr. Manuel. Did you wear them?
Mr. Martin. I sure did.
Mr. Manuel. Did you ever march in any Labor Day parades in
your uniform?
Mr. Martin. I sure did.
The Chairman. What is wrong with this ?
Mr. ]\Ianuel. I am just opening one thing. In 1947 did you march
in the Labor Day parade with the flying squadron ?
Mr. Martin. I did.
Mr. Manuel. Did Mr. Gosser march at the head of the column?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
Mr. Manuel. Did you know whether or not he wore four stars on
the shoulder?
Mr. Martin. He wore three or four. I know he wore stars on the
shoulder.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that the point ?
The Chairman. Proceed. Let us get to the point.
Senator Kennedy. I would like to ask a couple of questions. Did
you call yourself the goon squad or the flying squad ?
Mr. Marten. Flying squad or goon squad.
Senator Kennedy. Did you call yourself the goon squad ?
Mr. Martin. I say that 'is what they called them. I was a member
of it.
Senator Kennedy. This morning you referred to yourself as the
flying squad. Senator Curtis called it the goon squad. I was wonder-
ing if that was the term of reference used by the members. You
yourself, goons.
Mr. Martin. I will say this. I was on every picket line in the city
of Toledo trying to advance the workers of the city of Toledo.
Senator Kennedy. Do you consider that a goon squad ?
Mr. Martin. Just a minute.
Senator Kennedy. I just asked you a question, whether it was called
the goon squad. That is all I am asking you.
20236 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Martin. Yes, it was called the goon squad, the flying squad and
other names.
Senator Kennedy. Let me ask you this question. You say you
don't know where the money went. Do you know whether Mr. Gosser
kept it?
Mr. Martin. Now, Mr. Kennedy, don't try that with me, answer
that question that way. Ask Mr. Gosser a question. I don't know
what became of the money. I am no Houdini or mindreader. I
turned the money in.
Senator Kennedy. You don't know what happened to it after that?
Mr. ISiARTiN. That is what I said. I have been trying to find out
for years what happened to it.
Senator Kennedy. Let me ask you : In other words, you have no
evidence that the money was not used for the camp, is that correct ?
Mr. Martin. I have no evidence that the money was not used for
the camp ?
Senator Kennedy. That is right.
Mr. Martin. I would say that. Personally I have no evidence.
The Chairman. What is the complaint here? It seems to me set-
ting up a camp would have been a very fine tiling to do. What is the
complaint about the camp ?
Mr. Martin. The complaint is misappropriation of money in a local
union. I think it will be brought out as the hearing progresses. I
don't think we are here in regards to just wasting our time here.^ Like
I stated, I have been waiting 7 years to come before this committee to
try to go to work and have my rights justified.
The Chairman. You have not been waiting that long to come before
this committee.
Mr. Martin. I mean some kind of committee that can help me.
The U.S. Government.
The Chairman. We can't help you. All we can do is to hear your
story.
Mr. Martin. Maybe you can recommend to the legal department
something be done. When a man spends all his life in a labor move-
ment and because he disagrees with certain people and gets his life
chopped off and has no livelihood. If you are 55 or 56 years old, it
is impossible to get a job.
The Chairman. Will you let me talk when I am trying to ?
Mr. Martin. I will.
The Chairman. I am trying to help, and I don't like to be in-
terrupted.
Mr. Martin. Pardon me.
The Chairman. I am trying to find out if there is anything real
about this except where the money went. In the processes of raising
the money I don't see anything wrong. In giving you a list of names
to check and collect the money I see nothing wrong. To raffle off a car
I see nothing wrong. Certainly you say they had many children out
there. I see nothing wrong with that. The only question is who took
the money instead of giving it to the secretary-treasurer, or whoever
it is, of the local. You gave this money to the secretaries of Mr. Gosser,
is that correct ?
Mr. Martin. That is right.
The Chairman. You don't know what became of the money after
that? You do know that it took money to operate the camp.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20237
Mr. Martin. Tliat is right. I will say this. These moneys that were
collected should have been turned over to the secretary of the local
unit because this station wagon and everything that was purchased
was purchased with money from the local union. Therefore the money
should have been turned in to the local union and under the supervision
of the secretary of the local union. I think if that had been done that
this hearing today would not be existing.
The CiiAiR^rAx. That may be true. You were a member of it at
that time. Did you ask that it be done that way ?
Mr. Martix. No, I knew better. "You are trying to question my
honesty. For that you go back in the shop." That is what Mr. Gosser
would have told me.
The Chairman. Who is questioning your honesty ?
Mr. Martin. I just say if I had told that to Mr. Gosser he would
have told me, "Are you questioning my honesty?"
The Chairman. Are there any other questions ? I am trying to be
helpful here, and I can't get you to respond. Anything else? All
right, call the next witness.
Senator Curtis. I\Ir. Bolman and Mr. Gray.
The Chairman. Do you and each of you solemnly swear that the
evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Gr.\y. I do.
Mr. Bolman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF RANDOLPH GRAY, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
LARRY S. DAVIDOW; AND TESTIMONY OE JOHN E. BOLMAN
The Chairman. The gentleman on my left, please identify yourself
for the record.
Mr. Bolman. John E. Bolman.
The Chairman. T\liere do you live, and what is your business or
occupation ?
Mr, Bolman. 927 Brewer Avenue, Toledo, Ohio. I am self-em-
ployed in the drycleaning business.
The Chairman. And you name is Randolph Gray ?
Mr. Gray. 1331 Geoffrey Avenue, Toledo, Ohio. Employed by the
Dana Corp., Standard Equipment Division.
The Chairman. Do you have counsel ?
Mr. Bolman. I do not.
Mr. Gray. I have Mr. Davidow, who agreed to assist me today.
The Chairman, Mr. Davidow, will you identify yourself for the
record ?
Mr. Davidow. My name is Larry S, Davidow, practicing lawyer, city
of Detroit. I have represented Mr. Gray in litigation against the
UAW-CIO. He has asked me to sit with him today.
The Chairman. He has a right to have counsel of his choice present
to consult with regarding his legal rights.
All right, Senator Curtis.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, I think we will develop something
of Mr. Bolman first, but I believe we should identify these people a
little more.
Mr. Gray, were you a member of local 12 of the UAW ?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
20238 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. At one time you were a board member ?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Then you later assumed the duties of financial
secretary ?
Mr. Gray. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. You followed Mr. Burke, who became a Congress-
man?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Then subsequent to that you were elected financial
secretary ?
Mr. Gray. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. As best as you can recall, about when did you
assume the duties as financial secretary ?
Mr. Gray. I think it was in the late 1941. I mean I helped out m
the office. I believe it was in 1942 that I was elected. The year 1942—
the early part.
Senator Curtis. And you continued performing the duties of finan-
cial secretary until about when ?
Mr. Gray. I think May 16, 1950.
Senator Curtis. What position did Mr. Gosser hold when you first
started to perform duties as financial secretary ?
Mr. Gray. I believe he was president of the local at that time.
Senator Curtis. Later he advanced to regional representative; is
that correct ?
Mr. Gray. Yes.
Senator Curtis. What office did he hold during the last part of
your service as financial secretary ?
Mr. Gray. International vice president.
Senator Curtis. Wliat are the duties of the financial secretary to the
receipt of money for the union ?
Mr. Gray. He is supposed to receive all the moneys and income for
the local union that has been turned over to him. In other words,
under the constitution.
Senator Curtis. What are his duties in regard to expenditures?
Mr. GRiVY. I am supposed to countersign the checks. In my i)ar-
ticular case they happened to have a treasurer at that particular time
who handled the disbursements. Later on I took the job over m its
entirety.
Senator Curtis. The money is to come to you and you keep the books
in regard to that ?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You also keep the books in regard to expenditures ?
Mr. Gray. That is right. I didn't in the first instance, but later I
did. That is in part, I should say.
Senator Curtis. In performing these duties where was your office
located ?
Mr. Gray. On the first floor of the building that is on Wmthrop
Street, 425 Winthrop Street.
Senator Curtis. Did Mr. Gosser have an office m the same building?
Mr. Gray. Yes ; he did.
Senator Curtis. For the sake of time, I do not want to review all of
the testimony that has already been put in, but local 12 owned a
summer camp ; is that correct ?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20239
Mr. Gray. The building corporation which is a part of the local did
own the summer camp ; yes. i .1 i -i -,
Senator CuPxTIS. I will put it this way : Local 12 owned the build-
ing corporation ?
Mr, Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. What was that called ?
Mr. Gray. It was the Automotive Workers Building Corp. It was
the holding company for the real estate.
Senator Curtis. Was every member of local 12 also a member of the
building corporation ?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. And the building corporation, the summer camp,-
and the retirement farm ?
Mr. Gr.\y. That is right.
Senator Curtis. So the real owner of all of this was local 12 ?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. In your duties did you handle receipts of money
for local 12, also the building corporation, also sunmier camp, and
retirement funds?
Mr. Gray. I handled Automotive Workers Building money and the
local money, that is what was given to me. What was not given to me
I didn't handle.
Senator Curtis. As far as your duties are concerned. I am not
talking about any specific funds.
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You handled local 12 receipts?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Building corporation receipts?
Mr. Gray. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Did you handle receipts of the summer camp ?
Mr. Gray. Yes. That is what was turned over. In other words,
there is a triple bookkeeping system there that is hard to understand.
What was given to me I did handle. What I was not given, which I
was entitled to, I didn't handle.
Senator Curtis. I am speaking now according to the way it should
have been handled.
Mr. Gray. I should have handled everything.
Senator Curtis. You should ha^e handled everything ?
Mr. Gray. Yes.
Senator Curtis. When I say the summer camp, that also included
the retirement funds.
Mr. GRtVY. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. You were here and heard the previous witness ?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You heard him testify about certain solicitations ?
Mr. Gray. Yes.
Senator Curtis. For the summer camp ?
Mr. Gray. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Was that money handled through you as financial
secretary ?
Mr. Gray. Some of it was.
Senator Curtis. Was all of it?
Mr. Gray. No.
20240 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Ctjktis. Would you elaborate on that a little bit ?
Mr. Gray. Wliat came to me which we rendered an official receipt
through the window which could be accounted for, I would handle
that part. There was money that went upstairs, to the extent I don't
know the amounts. I would get a sheet saying that they were going
to turn over so much to a bank for deposit, and I was to sign a check
to draw that amount out against disbursements. I don't know ex-
actly what amount would be upstairs.
Senator Curtis. In other words, your statement is that technically
it was your understanding that all receipts come to you ?
Mr. Gray. It is in the constitution. I am entitled to have all the
receipts come to me. They violate that continually.
Senator Curtis. There are transactions that were handled, what
you call upstairs ?
Mr. Gray. In fact, they had transactions handled by people who
were not even employees of the union. They were the secretary of the
TIC. He handled the money downtown prior to the summer camp
on the farm.
Senator Curtis. Did you ever handle any of the flower fund money ?
Mr. Gray. I banked some of it. I would go up in Mr. Gosser's
office
Senator Curtis. Did it go through your books ?
Mr. Gray. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. But you would do some banking errands now and
then?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. This testimony of these witnesses here that they
made payments witli more or less regularity in cash, did that come to
you as financial secretary ?
Mr. Gray. No ; it did not.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Bolman — and we will come back to you,
Mr. Gray — were you ever a member of the UAW ?
Mr. Bolman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Were you ever a member of local 12 ?
Mr. Bolman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Where were you working at the time you became
a member of local 12 ?
Mr. Bolman. Spicer Manufacturing Division of the Dana Corp.
Senator Curtis. What sort of work did you perform at that time ?
Mr. Bolman. The technical title, I believe, for the job was assistant
iDuyer.
Senator Curtis. Assistant buyer ?
Mr. Bolman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you continue performing those same duties all
the time during your service there ?
Mr. Bolman. Up until a short time before I was discharged by the
company.
Senator Curtis. About when did you go to work for the Spicer Corp.
and become a member of the UAW ?
Mr. Bolman. Approximately 1943. I wouldn't recall the exact
dale.
Senator Curtis. About 1943. About how long did you continue?
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20241
Mr. BoLMAN. Until I was discharged in November 1949.
Senator Curtis. Did you assist with any War Labor Board work
of any kind ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. What duties was that ?
Mr. BoLMAN. At the particular time we had work with the War
Labor Board was during the course of the organization of the Spicer
office people, and a strike took place, and we had to appear before the
War Labor Board to represent our case.
Senator Curtis. Were you at any time an employee of the union
or were you what might be termed a rank-and-file member ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I was never a paid employee of the union. I was a
representative but never on the payroll.
Senator Curtis. What kind of representative were you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I was the chairman of the Spicer office unit of local 12
for approximately 3 years.
Senator Curtis. What were your duties there ?
Mr. BoLMAN. To act as the chairman of the unit in representing
the people that belonged to the office unit.
Senator Curtis. But you earned your livelihood by working for the
corporation ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Exactly.
Senator Curtis. That took your full time ?
Mr. BoLMAN. That is right.
Senator Curtis. This other was extra work ?
Mr. BoLMAN. That is right.
Senator Curtis. You were trained in office work ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you do shorthand ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you do typing ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Did you attend a meeting of the Automotive Work-
ers Building Corp. and request an accounting of their funds ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did.
Senator Curtis. About when did this happen ?
Mr. BoLMAN. During October of 1949, I believe. I would have to
check the record to be sure of the exact date.
Senator Curtis. Had facts come to your attention that caused you
to want an accounting of the receipts ajid expenditures as a member of
the union ?
Mr. BoLMAisr. Exactly.
Senator Curtis. What were those facts ?
Mr. BoLMAN. The fact that union funds were being used for per-
sonal profit purposes by Mr. Gosser and Melvin Schultz who operated
the Colonial Hardware Store.
Senator Curtis. You wanted to ascertain the truth or falsity of
those charges ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did.
Senator Curtis. Did you have reports come to you concerning the
purchase with union funds of articles from the Colonial Hardware?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did.
20242 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. That is the Colonial Hardware that has been testi-
fied to earlier originally owned by Mr. Gosser and Mr. Schultz, later
by Mr. Gosser and finally sold to the union ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. When these facts came to you, did you pay a visit
to the summer camp ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did.
Senator Curtis. What did you find up there, if anything, that
added to your desire that you wanted to ask for an accounting of
funds?
Mr. BoLMAisr. We examined, myself and one other fellow, the
premises up there, and at that time there was a construction program
in progress. There were packing cases laying all over the place, con-
taining materials that would be used in the construction and building
of the buildings up there. In examining the crates and packages we
found that in almost every instance the material had been routed
through the Colonial Hardware store by the suppliers.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, we are not destroying the exhibit
here. I am just tearing off some notations.
Mr. Chairman, first we would like to have these properly identified.
(The documents were handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. The Chair will hand you what appears to be five
tags, four on one piece of paper and one on a separate piece of paper.
Will you examine the tags and see if you identify them.
(The documents were handed to the witness.)
Mr. BoLMAN". These tags are shipping tags that were attached to
packing cases containing materials that were at the local 12 camp at
Sand Lake, Mich., indicating the shipment through the Colonial Hard-
ware store.
During my visit to the camp I appropriated these tags by simply
detaching them from the cases or making records as to shipment.
The Chairman. Can that not all be placed on one sheet of paper
for identification ? There are five tags altogether.
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes.
The Chairman. They may be made exhibit No. 33.
(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibit No. 33" for refer-
ence and may be found in the files of the select committee.)
Senator Curtis. Is it true that there was raised in your mind a
question of merchandise being purchased from one source but routed
through Mr. Schultz and Mr. Gosser's Colonial Hardware store ?
Mr. BoLMAN. That was my belief.
Senator Curtis. In your preliminary check, as you stated you
wanted an accounting to find out the truth or falsity of these things,
did you come into facts that caused you to believe that a profit may
have been made concerning the sale of the Sand Lake property to the
union or the building corporation ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did.
Senator Curtis. Briefly tell us about that.
Mr, BoLMAN. I would say that I would refer to the record to be
exact, but on just a general statement, the information that we evolved
disclosed that the Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club, which was made up
of a group of Willys-Overland employees of which Mr. Gosser was
president, had purchased a tract of land at Sand Lake.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20243
After the purchase of the tract sold off a part of it, and then sold
the residue to the Automotive Workers Building Corp., which was
the holding company for local 12.
The original purchase price of the tract was $9,500, purchased from
the Depositors Liquidation Corp.
The Chairman. How was it paid for? Out of what fund was it
paid for?
Mr. BoLMAN. It was paid by the Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club
membership. Subsequently a parcel of that tract was sold off to the
Automotive Building— I beg your pardon — to Mr. Davis, for $12,500,
which reduced the size of "the original tract of land and gave the
Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club a profit of $3,000, thereby returning
their original investment plus the profit of $3,000.
Subsequent to that the property was sold to the Automotive Workers
Building Corp. for $21,000.
The Chairman. Is that the same tract that was in the first sale of
$12,500?
Mr. BoLMAN. The tract amounting to $12,500 was not included in
the tract that was sold to the Automotive Workers Building Corp.
The Chairman. In other words, that was of the remainder.
Mr. BoLMAN. That was the remainder.
The Chairman. It sold for $21,000 ?
Mr. BoLMAN. $21,000. The Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club real-
izing a profit of $24,000 on a $9,500 investment.
The Chairman, What time elapsed from the time of the purchase
at $9,500 until the sales were made in the first part for $12,500 and
the next to the union holding company for $21,000.
Mr. Bolman. I wouldn't be exact, but I would say approximately 4
years.
Senator Curtis. This Will-O-Land Sportsmen's Club, was that
headed by Mr. Gosser ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
(At this point Senators Kennedy and Goldwater withdrew from the
hearing room.)
Senator Curtis. Was every employee of Willys-Overland a member
of that club?
Mr. BoLMAN. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. It was a small club ?
Mr. Bolman. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. I think we had some documents in the record a
week or two ago showing a rather limited membership of less than 200.
Mr. Bolman. We have testimony from the officers of the club that
at its inception in 1942 there were 80 members, and gradually reduced
to a membership of 25 in about 1948, 1 believe.
Senator Curtis. With these questions brought to your attention, you
asked for an accounting?
Mr. Bolman. I did.
Senator Curtis. Tell us what you did first in seeking an accounting
from the Automotive Building Corp. ? That is the group, I believe,
according to Mr. Gray, who owned the summer camp, is it not ? They
held title for local 12 ?
36751 — 60 — pt. 58 22
20244 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. BoLMAN. The title of the summer camp property would have
been held by the Automotive Workers Building Corp. That was the
practice.
Senator Curtis. So it was of that particular organization that you
asked for an accounting?
Mr. BoLMAN. The Building Corp.; that is correct.
Senator Curtis. Tell us what you did when you first asked for an
accounting ?
Mr. BoLMAN. At the meeting?
Senator Curtis. Your first move to get an accounting.
Mr, BoLMAN. The actual first move to get an accounting was to
request an examination of the records of the corporation.
Senator Curtis. To whom did you make that request?
Mr. BoLMAN. The request to Mr. Gray, who was financial secretary
of local 12.
Senator Curtis. Was your request granted?
Mr. BoLMAN. It was not.
Senator Curtis. Do you remember in substance what you w^ere told ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Just plain "No" as far as I can recall.
Senator Curtis. Then what was the next thing you did ?
Mr. BoLMAN. We made up a motion to present on the floor of the
next regular meeting of the Automotive Workers Building Corp.
requesting an accounting of the funds of the corporation.
Senator Curtis. Were you alone in this? Were you the only
member of local 12 who had raised questions about expenditures ?
Mr. BoLMAN. No. The information had been brought to me by
other people. I simply followed through on it.
Senator Curtis. By other people, were they other union members ?
Mr. BoLMAN. They were other members of local 12 ; yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. So you were proceeding in your own right as a
member and also on behalf of others that were interested?
Mr. BoLMAN. Exactly.
Senator Curtis. Were there a number of others?
Mr. BoLMAN. I would say considerable.
Senator Curtis. That you know of?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. When you first asked the financial secretary to
see the books you got a "No." Then what did you do?
Mr. BoLMAN. As I stated before, I attended a regular meeting of
the Automotive Workers Building Corp. and presented a motion on
(he floor for an accounting of the corporation's records.
Senator Curtis. May we have this identified, Mr. Chairman?
(The docmnent was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. I hand you what purports to be a photostatic copy
of minutes of Automotive Workers Building Corp. of October 14,
1949, and ask you to examine and state if you identify it.
Senator Curtis. Mr, Chairman, if we may, we would like to have
that submitted to Mr. Gray.
The Chairman. The question I just asked is directed to Mr. Gray.
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Senator Curtis. "Wliat is that ?
Mr, Gray. It is the minutes of the Automotive Workers Building
Coi-p.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20245
Senator Curtis. Prepared by who ?
Mr. Gray. Prepared by myself, with the exception of one change.
Senator Curtis. What change is that?
Mr. Gr^vy. That is in regard to the Sunset Lodge.
The Chairman. Let us have it marked "Exhibit No. 34."
(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 34" for reference
and may be foimd in the files of the select committee.)
The Chairman. You say you recognize it and say it is prepared
by you all except one thing, and that is something that has been
changed ?
Mr. Gray. That is correct.
The Chairman. ^Vliat is the change that has been made in it?
Mr. Gray. Prior to Mr. Bohnan giving me a motion asking for an
accounting there was a motion made by Mr. Madrzykowski that Mr.
Gosser should be given a life lease on Sunset Lodge.
Senator Curtis. Was Sunset Lodge a cottage at the summer camp?
ISIr. Gray. That is correct. It seemed the way I had wrote it up
originally it was liable to get us in trouble with the courts due to the
fact that these lawsuits were pending. One of them was pending
at that time, if I remember right. Anyhow, Mr. Goerlich, who is in
the room here, had me change this to read in substance here :
IMotion made and supported that the corporation, Gosser, use the Sunset
Lodge in connection with the union activities regarding the summer camp, said
use to extend as long as he had any duties with the summer camp. Motion
carried.
There is none but on the basis of a life lease to be deeded.
Tlie Chairman. Was this prepared after the meeting ?
]\fr. Gray. This was made after the meeting from notes made.
The Chairman. So you wrote it up one way and then afterward
you changed it ?
Mr. Gray. Yes, on the insistence of Mr. Goerlich.
Senator Curtis. Wliat was Mr. Goerlich 's position at that time?
Mr. Gray. He was an attorney for the UAW.
Senator Curtis. He is a gentleman here in the room ?
Mr. Gray. Yes. I know him real well. It was on the basis of some
court action it was changed. Just that one part.
Senator Curtis. I am not shutting anyone off, but for the moment I
want to develop something with Mr. Bolman. The balance of that is
the minutes of the entire meeting that were prepared by you subject to
this change you made ?
JMr. Gray. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Will you hand that to Mr. Bolman?
(The document was handed to the witness.)
Senator Curtis. Mr. Bolman, you will notice that near the center of
the first page, it says :
Motion made by John Bolman was read. Secretary asked to copy same due to
length. Copy of motion :
That the Automotive Workers Building Corp. furnish in printed form for dis-
tribution to its membership a certified financial report covering the years 1946,
1947, 1948, and 1949, to and including September 30, 1949. This report to show
the following information :
(1) Balance of all accounts itemized.
(2) Income itemized to show sources and amounts individually.
20246 IMPROPER ACTR^ITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
(3) Expenditures itemized to show amounts, to whom paid, and purposes.
(4) Assets, itemized to show liquid assets, property, equipment, et cetera.
(5) Liabilities, itemized to show to whom obligated, amoimts and pur-
poses.
This report to be distributed to the membership of the Automotive Workers
Building Corp. by November 30, 1949.
Mr. Bolman, was that the motion that you made ?
Mr. Bolman. It was.
Senator Curtis. Are there any charges or accusations in it or is it a
simple request for an accounting ?
Mr. BoLMAN. It is a request for an accounting.
Senator Curtis. Where was this meeting held, if you recall ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I believe exactly it would have been parlor A at the
local 12 building at Ashland and Winthrop in Toledo, Ohio.
Senator Curtis. Your memory is correct as to the size of the room.
Are you able to estimate the size of the group that attended that
night?
Mr. BoLMAN. I would estimate the size of the room to be approxi-
mately 30 by 60. I would say that the capacity of the room would
probably have been a maximum of 300 people.
Senator Curtis. Was it filled ?
Mr. BoLMAN. It was to capacity and beyond.
Senator Curtis. As your understanding as a member, were all
members in good standing in local 12 eligible to attend this meeting?
Mr. BoLMAN. They were.
Senator Curtis. About how many did they have at that time, Mr.
Gray?
]\Ir. Gray. Somewhere in the neighborhood, I think the report
shows, 24,000 or 25,000.
Senator Curtis. In 1949 ?
Mr. Gray. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Bolman, who was presiding over the meeting?
Mr. Bolman. I will refer to the minutes. The meeting was called
to order by Harold Seren at 4 p.m.
Senator Curtis. He was the president of local 12 ?
Mr. Bolman. He was the president of local 12.
Mr. Kennedy. Had a suit been tiled by this time ?
Mr. Bolman. It had not.
Mr. Kennedy. This was before any suits?
Mr. Bolman, Prior to any litigation,
Mr. Kennedy. This was a meeting you held?
Mr. Bolman. Exactly.
Mr. Kennedy. Had you seen an attorney by this time ?
Mr. Bolman. I had not.
Mr. Kennedy. You had not discussed it with anyone ?
Mr. Bolman. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. You were recognized for the purpose of maldng
this motion ?
Mr. Bolman. I was.
Senator Curtis. Wliat happened after you made it ?
Mr. Bolman. If it be proper to refer to the minutes, I would say
after the motion was made— I will read this from the minutes them-
selves —
Discussion was held on same. Murphy asked through the Chair if Bolman's
motion was tied to the pension plan. Requested Bolman to reply through the
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20247
Chair. Bolman asked that his reply be in the form of a question. Was it not
true that Murphy worked inside a plant in 1933 while it was on strike?
Shall I continue ?
Senator Curtis. Yes, please.
Mr. Bolman (reading) :
Confusion followed Bolman's remarks. Ballard asked for the floor and gave
a short talk on the motion. Amendment made and supported that Rolman
explain reason for making the motion and submit proof to substantiate his
charges against Murphy or apologize for his action. Amendment to the amend-
ment made that Bolman give his reason or leave the room. Bolman said he did
not care to state his reasons and left the meeting. Amendment to the amend-
ment died for lack of support. Amendment to the motion was voted and
carried. Vote taken on motion as amended. Motion lost. Motion made and
supported recommending to local 12 that charges be filed against Bolman.
Motion carried. Motion made and supported to adjourn. Motion carried.
Meeting adjourned at 9 :45 p.m.
Senator Curtis. Now, is that a full report of everything that
happened ?
Mr. Bolman. Well, not in my estimation.
Senator Curtis. You did leave the room ?
Mr. Bolman. I did.
Senator Curtis. Did you leave the room in the same condition you
entered ?
Mr. Bolman. I did not.
Senator Curtis. What was the difference ?
Mr. Bolman. The side of my face was smashed in.
Senator Curtis. Tell what happened.
Mr. Bolman. Wlien I presented this motion on the floor, of course
the same tactic was used that always is used to cover up any of these
things, and that is drag the red herring across the path.
So Mr. Murphy's question was based on personality in my estima-
tion, and for that reason I presented him with a question based on
personality.
Senator Curtis. Who was Murphy ?
Mr. Bolman. Murphy was at that time, someone will have to cor-
roborate, but I believe he was an international representative and
assistant to Mr. Gosser.
Senator Curtis. All right; go ahead with your account.
Mr. Bolman. After I asked Murphy the question, he came down off
the platform together with about 11 or 12 other people and everybody
tried to take a punch at me at the same time.
The Chairman. Who took the punch at you ?
Mr. Bolman. Murphy.
The Chairman. He was an international representative ?
Mr. Bolman. He was an international representative, assistant to
Mr. Gosser.
The Chairman. He was present at the meeting in that capacity as
an international representative ?
Mr. Bolman. Well, he was present at the meeting, and I imagine
he was there representing Mr. Gosser, inasmuch as he was his assistant.
The Chairman. I am just trying to get information. I am trying
to understand what Murphy's function was, why he was present. Was
he a member of that union ?
Mr. Bolman. Oh, yes ; very definitely.
The Chairman. A member of that local ?
20248 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He was a member and also a representative?
Mr. BoLMAN. He was entitled to be there.
Senator Curtis. By the way, what is Murphy's first name ?
Mr. Gray. Walter.
Senator Curtis. Was he an international representative at that
time ?
Mr. Gray. To the best of my recollection he was. He was admm-
istrative assistant.
Senator Curtis. Did anybody hit you besides Mr. Murphy ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Very much so.
Senator Curtis. Did you remain on your feet or in your seat?
Mr. BoLMAN. No, I didn't.
Senator Curtis. Wliat happened to you.
Mr. BoLMAN. I went to the floor.
Senator Curtis. Did you receive any blow other than on the face
and head?
Mr. BoLMAN. I was slugged in the back by a few people, a fellow
alongside of me was slugged in the back by a chair and he was in a
cast for 6 months.
Senator Curtis. Do you know his name ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Clark.
Senator Curtis. Do you know his first name ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Charles.
Senator Curtis. Had he taken any part in your motion?
Mr. BoLMAN. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Do you happen to know whether or not he sup-
ported your request for an accounting ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I believe he did.
Senator Curtis. Did anybody kick you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. They were coming so thick and fast I could not tell
whether they were hands or feet.
Senator Curtis. How badly were you injured ?
Mr. BoLMAN. The sigmoid on my right side was broken, across the
face.
Senator Curtis. That is a bone?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. Go ahead.
Mr. BoLMAN. And on examination at the hospital, a bone special-
ist examined it and determined that it couldn't be repaired because
of the danger to the optic nerve.
Senator Curtis. What treatment was given you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. None, and I suffered through.
Senator Curtis. What hospital were you taken to ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Toledo Hospital.
Senator Curtis. Do you recall about how long you were there?
Mr. BoLMAN. Just for examination and for X-rays.
Senator Curtis. You were X-rayed and examined and went through
all of that process, but you were not confined to the hospital for the
days that continued ?
Mr. BoLMAN. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. Would you regard this as a severe injury ac-
companied by considerable pain ?
Mr. BoLMAN. It didn't feel very well.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20249
Senator Cuktis. Well, what I mean by that, we want the record to
truly reflect the facts. Did you regard that you had received a
serious blow, or a slap that might come in a scuffle ?
Mr. BoLMAN. At that particular time I regarded it as very serious,
yes, sir.
Senator Curtis. How do you regard it now ?
Mr. BoLMAN. It is still serious.
Senator Curtis. It still bothers you some ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes,
Senator Curtis. This Ballard mentioned in the minutes here — who
is Ballard?
Mr. BoLMAN. Ballard at that time, I believe, was regional director
of 2-B.
Senator Curtis. He is in this room ?
Mr. BoLMAN. He is.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Gray, were you f)i"esent in the meeting when
this happened?
Mr. Gray. Oh, yes ; I was the secretary.
Senator Curtis. And you, of course, heard Mr. BoLman make his
motion ?
Mr. Gray. Oh, yes. And in fact, I asked him for a copy because
it was quite lengthy.
Senator Curtis. What is your recollection as to what you saw in
reference to Mr. Bolman gettin<r hurt ?
Mr. Gray. Well, as I recall it, I didn't know what was going on at
the particular time, and of course my office is just adjacent to this
particular meeting hall. So I usually get in there about the last
minute just before the meeting starts, as a rule, and of course if I
remember rightly, there was a local meeting prior to that.
Anyhow, when I first went to this room where they had this meet^
ing I saw quite a group of people there, which is very unusual, and
I didn't know what was going on.
Senator Curtis. This is the meeting where he made his motion ?
Mr. Gray. That is right. And, in fact, I couldn't hear what it
was, so I walked in and I said to Ballard, what is all of the commotion
about? And he said, "They are going to take care of Bolman."
I didn't know what Bolman was up to or anji^hing about it.
Senator Curtis. This was before the meeting started, that Mr.
Ballard said they were going to take care of Bolman?
Mr. Gray. That is correct. And I didn't ask him why, and I didn't
know what Bolman had done, whether he had pushed some of the
boys around or something might have been said that they didn't like,
and I didn't know.
So the result was I went up to the front, and we had our meeting.
Then when Bolman got up with this particular motion, it seemed as
though it made Murphy kind of mad, and he rushed over, or he was
sitting around, and he went around to take a swipe at Bolman, and I
couldn't tell who was hitting who, because it was quite a commotion
going on in the hall and everybody swinging and shoving.
But Murphy did rush down in front of me, because I was sitting
on the front platform.
Senator Curtis. You were sitting near the front ?
Mr. Gray. Yes, and I was facing the audience.
20250 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Curtis. And you did see Mui-phy go from the front part
of the room down to the area where Mr. Bohiian was ?
Mr. Gray. He was sitting on the first row, I think, Murphy was,
and Bolman was sitting back in the third or fourth row, or maybe the
fifth row.
Senator Curtis. By the time the fists and chairs started to fly, do
I understand that you are not purporting to report just who did the
hitting, and so on ?
Mr. Gray. I saw Murphy hit him first, and that seemed to set it
all off.
Senator Curtis. You did see Murphy hit him ?
Mr. Gray. He came like that, and maybe it was accidental, I don't
know.
Senator Curtis. Wliere was Ballard while this was happening ?
Mr. Gray. I don't recall, and he usually hung out in the back of the
hall, and I don't remember whether he was in the particular room at
the particular time, and I only met Ballard when I first went in the
room.
Senator Curtis. Now, at this time, this meeting was in October of
1949, Mr. Gray, you were still the recording secretary ?
Mr. Gray. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. You had not had a break with Mr. Gosser or other
union officials at that time ?
Mr. Gray. We were feuding back and forth, but not an open break.
Senator Curtis. You were still loyally performing your duties,
even though you were raising some questions about some of these
things ?
Mr. Gray. At least they seemed to be satisfied.
Senator Curtis. But what I am getting at is this : You were not a
party to Mr. Bolman's motion ?
Mr. Gray. Oh, no. I didn't know anything about it until he read
it off in the meeting, and that is why I asked Ballard what all of the
commotion was about, why they had such a big meeting, and I didn't
even know about the meeting being stacked.
Senator Curtis. I want to ask you this, Mr. Gray : I have read the
motion that was made. He asked for certified financial report and
breaks it down as to balances, income, expenditures, assets, and lia-
bilities.
To the best of your recollection, Mr. Gray, that constituted all that
Bolman said ?
Mr. Gray. That is correct.
Senator Curtis. Did he make any charges in your presence or hurl
any accusations or violent language or name calling ?
Mr. Gray. He didn't make any accusations, and he just made that
motion, and I said to John, "Well, this is lengthy, and I am not a short-
hand fellow. Pass me a copy of it so I can take it down the way you
had it," which he did, and he brought it up to the front and gave it to
me. Then he and Murphy got in a squabble and Murphy asked him
a question as to why he was putting it in.
Senator Curtis. In other words, it was what it purports to be, a
request of a rank and file member for financial information.
Mr. Gray. Oh, certainly, there was nothing wrong with his request.
Mr. Kennedy. At that time, Mr. Bolman, had you taken a stand on
this pension
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20251
Mr. BoLMAN. You need not finish. I had not, and I didn't even
know anything about the pension plan.
Mr. Kennedy. Do yon know why they raised that question ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Sure, I know why they raised it. It was the old red
herring, as I explained before.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever take a stand on the pension ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I never did.
Mr. Kennedy. You never did?
Mr. Bolman. I had no knowledge of the pension plan, and didn't
know what it consisted of or anything else.
Mr. Kennedy. Later on you never took a stand either ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I never took a stand on the pension issue.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever hand out leaflets or pamphlets ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. In opposition to the pension ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Evidently, this committee, the Committee To Save
Toledo Payrolls?
Mr. BoLMAN. I think that is what they referred to.
Mr. Kennedy. They were in opposition to the pension; is that
correct ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Well, I believe that there was some publications issued
that took that particular point of view.
Mr. Kennedy. As I understand, too, I believe it was Mr. Gosser's
idea, and the officials from the union, who were trying to put this
gension into operation, and it was being opposed by the Committee To
ave Toledo Payrolls.
Did you ever have anything to do with the Committee To Save
Toledo Payrolls?
Mr. BoLMAN. None whatever.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever have any meetings with them ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you subsequently obtain an attorney to handle
your case ?
Mr. BoLMAN Did I what?
Mr. Kennedy. Have an attorney handle your case ?
Mr. Bolman. In regard to the litigation, yes.
Mr. Kennedy. Was that litigation against Mr. Gosser?
Mr. BoLMAN. Well, here is a copy of the amended petition, and I
will read the caption : "Vs. Richard T. Gosser, individually, and as
president and chairman of the board of trustees of defendant, the
Automotive Workers Building Corp., an Ohio corporation, and as
president and chairman of the organizing committee of defendant,
Will-0-Land Sportsmen's Club, Inc., an Ohio corporation, Secor
Hotel, Toledo, Ohio."
Mr. Kennedy. You had an attorney represent you in those cases ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. And you paid your attorney ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Who paid the attorney ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I don't know.
Mr. Kennedy. You don't know ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I do not.
Mr. I^NNEDY. You have no idea who paid the attorney ?
20252 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. BoLMAN I do have an idea.
Mr. Kennedy. Wliat is your idea ?
Mr. BoLMAN. The idea was disclosed in the testimony by Paul
Block, that he had furnished funds for the attorneys.
Mr. Kennedy. How much money did he furnish ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I do not know.
Mr. Kennedy. Who was Paul Block?
Mr. BoLMAN. Paul Block was the publisher of the Toledo Blade.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you happen to retain this attorney ?
Mr. BoLMAN. How did I happen to retain him ? Frankly, I don't
recall, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. Kennedy. Your memory seems to be so good on these other
things, and I wonder why it suddenly falls down.
Mr. BoLMAN. I have records on these other things, Mr. Kennedy.
I don't have records on that.
Mr. KJENNEDY. How many times have you been arrested, Mr. Bol-
man?
Mr. BoLMAN. I would say two or three times.
Mr. Kennedy. How many times have you been convicted ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Twice.
Mr. Kennedy. Three times, would it be ?
Mr. BoLMAN. All right, let us say three. You have the record, and
put it in evidence.
Mr. E[ennedy. You have been arrested many more times than three
times.
Mr. BoLMAN". I recall one thing
Mr. Kennedy. I am trying to get your memory refreshed.
Mr. BoLMAN. Let me answer it in my own way, if you don't mind.
I won't say that I am ignorant of it.
The Chairman. A little louder, please.
Mr. BoLMAN. I wouldn't say that I am ignorant of the proceedings
in this hearing, and I think we can be adults about this, too. That is
that I understand the point, and I understand the object in checking
the credibility of a witness, but I would like to point out something
else, too: I recall statements made to the effect that because these
cases were approximately 10 years old, that they had no real value and
now it seems as though something that happened 30 years go seems
to be mighty important.
The Chairman. Go ahead and answer the question.
Mr. Kennedy. Tell us what your arrests and convictions were.
Mr. BoLMAN. If you have the record, put it in evidence.
The Chairman. I am trying to talk, and please let me finish.
Mr. Bolman. I wouldn't recall.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Bolman. I have answered the question.
The Chairman. As to the number of convictions and the time of it,
as near as you can.
Mr. Bolman. I have answered the question to the best of my
knowledge.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Kennedy. You have no idea how many times you have been in
jail?
Mr. Bolman. I wouldn't make a guess. Thirty years is a long
time.
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20253
Mr. I^JENNEDT. How many times have you been in jail ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Several times.
Mr. Kennedy. How many different prisons have you been in ?
Mr. BoLMAN. A couple.
Mr. Kennedy. Two of them ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes.
Mr. Kennedy. What was that for? Do you remember the con-
victions ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Burglary.
Mr, Kennedy. Both times?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, how much did you understand this attorney
was being paid?
Mr. BoLMAN. I wouldn't have any idea.
Mr. Kennedy. How did you happen to retain this attorney, and
who suggested it to you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I wouldn't recall how it was done.
Mr. Kennedy. You can't remember that either?
Mr. BoLMAN. I wouldn't recall whether I contacted them or they
contacted me.
Mr. Kennedy. "VVliat was the name of the attorney ?
Mr. BoLMAN. The firm was Smith and Ells.
Mr. Kennedy. Who sent you to the attorney ?
Mr. Bolivian. I believe it was a telephone conversation, if I am
not mistaken.
Mr. Kennedy. Who?
Mr. BoLMAN. I believe from Mr. Ells.
Mr. Kennedy. You mean the attorney called you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I believe so, and I wouldn't swear positively.
Mr. Kennedy. Now, as I understand it, who was the attorney that
telephoned you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I wouldn't swear positively to it.
Mr. Kennedy. Positively or your best recollection, who was the at-
torney who telephoned you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. It would have been Mr. Ells.
Mr. Kennedy. I can't hear you very well.
Mr. BoLMAN. I say it would have been Mr. Ells.
Mr. Kennedy. How do you spell his name?
Mr. BoLMAN. Ells, E-l-l-s.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Ells telephoned you and said he wanted to
represent you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I wouldn't say that positively.
Mr. Kennedy. Is that your best recollection ?
Mr. BoLMAN. To my best recollection.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't that shock you, that such an attorney would
call and request to represent you ? Don't you know that action could
be taken against him by the ethical practices committee?
Mr. BoLMAN. Hardly anything shocks me any more.
Mr. Kennedy. So what did you say? You said you would allow
him to represent you ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I said if I recall rightly, that I would normally say,
not having recalling the conversation, I would normally say that any-
one who would have been interested in these particular cases, I would
be willing to talk to.
20254 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Mr. Kennedy. So did you go and talk to him ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did.
Mr. Kennedy. Who else did you talk to ?
Mr. BoLMAN. His law partner, Mr. Smith.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you make arrangements for them to repre-
sent you then ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I agreed to them.
Mr. Kennedy. Was tliere any discussion about fee at that time?
Mr. BoLMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Kennedy. What was the discussion ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I told them very definitely that I was unable to pay
any fees in the lawsuit.
Mr. I^NNEDY. Wliat did they say ?
Mr. BoLMAN. They told me not to worry about it.
Mr. Kennedy. Did you inquire as to who was paying them?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did not.
Mr. Kennedy. Didn't it occur to you at that time that you were
perhaps being used by some employers in the area— wait a minute —
that you were being used at that time by some employers in the area
who were opposed to Mr. Richard Gosser, and you were just merely
a front for them ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Mr. Kennedy, it didn't occur to me that anyone might
have been behind these attorneys. The only thing that I was inter-
ested in was the facts as stated in the petition, and there is a copy of it.
Mr. Kennedy. ^Vlio drew up that petition ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Wlio drew up the petition ? The attorneys.
Mr. Kennedy. Here are the attorneys under very unusual circum-
stances. You don't contact them. They contact you, and you go and
visit with them, and they tell you that you don't have to pay them,
somebody else pays them. During this same period of time the em-
ployers were getting together and were opposing Richard Gosser.
I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, this is the very thing that we
went out and investigated. Our two investigators went out there and
talked to these attorneys, and they admitted that these charges were
all a fraud, that they couldn't sustain the charges, and that they went
to this man, and the charges were then brought because the employers
wanted to ruin the pension plan in Toledo.
Mr. Block admits it at this time, and so did the attorneys admit it.
Senator Curtis. Just a minute.
Mr. Kennedy. The attorneys admit that the charges made against
Mr. Richard Gosser regarding financial irregularities were a fraud.
There was nothing to support them. And the fact that they at that
time were being paid by this group.
I think that your testimony supports that.
Senator Curtis. Now, in reference to Mr. Kennedy's testimony, I
wonder if the report of the two investigators that went out there does
contain the statement that the attorneys said that the charges were
false and fraudulent.
Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Tiemey can testify to that. It is in the written
report. Mr. Tierney can testify also; we can call him right away.
This was reported to you. Senator, at a meeting at the time that the
attorney made the statement that there was nothing to any of these
charges, and that they were using these people in order to try to defeat
IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD 20255
the pension f)lan in Toledo. They admitted in 1951 this was the reason.
That is why this whole hearing is such a fraud.
Senator Curtis. Now, you can brand this as a fraud if you want to,
but your line about this pension plan is Walter Keuther's line, and
Joe Rauh's line.
This morning I sat here and took a chastisement from you as an
employee of this committee. If you want to ask any questions, all
right, and if you want to testify, you be sworn.
Mr. Kennedy. I am just telling the truth, and I don't care who else
says it. I am telling the truth.
Senator Curtis. Just a moment.
The Chairman. Let us get back on the track.
Are there any questions '?
Senator Curtis. Yes ; I want to proceed with this.
Mr. Bolman, this serious trouble that you were in and you say you
served time for, about how long ago did that take place ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I say approximately 30 years ago.
Senator Curtis. Where have you lived since that time ?
Mr. BoLMAN. In Toledo.
Senator Curtis. And you are in business there ?
Mr. BoLMAN. That is right.
Senator Curtis. And you have held employment since ?
Mr. BoLMAN. That is right.
Senator Curtis. Have you been in any serious trouble since ?
Mr. BoLMAN. No, sir.
Senator Curtis. And approximately how old were you when you
got in trouble ?
Mr. BoLMAN. The last time, 21.
Senator Curtis. And how old are you now ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I am 48.
Senator Curtis. Now, Mr. Bolman, mention has been made of Mr.
Block, and I want to say to Mr. Kennedy, regardless of what em-
ployers may have said or done, and I do not know because I am not
interested in that, or pursuing that, and I might if I had time, but the
fact remains that here a rank-and-file member went to a union, not
hurling charges or accusations and he made a motion for a financial
accounting, and he had his jaw broken, and he was knocked down.
Mr. Kennedy. Did he bring charges on that ?
Mr. BoLMAN. I did.
Mr. Curtis. We will come to that.
Mr. Kennedy. Can we find out ?
Senator Curtis. I don't know that we can ever straighten it out
to you, Mr. Reuther, and Joe Rauh.
Mr. Chairman, I have taken enough of that.
The Chairman. The Chair is going to have to handle this thing
with a little authority, if we keep on this way. Don't think I won't
use it.
Senator Curtis. Very well. I apologize to the Chair if I have said
anything that I shouldn't.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Senator Curtis. Mention has been made of Mr. Block. He pub-
lishes the paper there.
Mr. Bolman. That is right.
20256 IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR FIELD
Senator Cuktis. Now, the fact that you as a young man were in
trouble has been publicized ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Oh, yes; and I think I have an editorial here some-
where covering the subject.
Senator Curtis. Who wrote it, or in whose paper did it appear?
Mr. BoLMAN. Mr. Block's paper.
Senator Curtis. Will you read it ?
The Chairman. I don't think that that is important.
Mr. BoLMAN. Let it be filed as an exhibit, if you care to.
Senator Curtis. Mr. Chairman, the counsel of tliis committee in-
jected the record of this man's offenses occurring when he was 21,
and he has lived in this community continuously and it has been
publicized there, and I ask for a reference of that.
The Chairman. I have no objection to the editorial being made a
part of the record, and it is a question now. Senator, if you want to
take up all of this time, because I am going to try to bring these things
to a close pretty soon.
Senator Curtis. How long is the editorial ?
Mr. BoLMAN. Here it is.
The Chairman. Do you want him to read all of that ?
Senator Curtis. I would like very much.
The Chairman. Let me see the editorial, and I don't even know
what it is in there.
Now, this is the way we kill a lot of time.
Senator Curtis. It takes almost as much time as Mr. Eauh takes.
The Chairman. The Chair thinl^s he has handled Mr. Rauh pretty
well in these hearings, and I think that he will agree.
Senator Curtis. I am referrmg to Mr. Eauh and not to the Chair's
action.
(The document was handed to the chairman.)
The Chairman. If I undei-stand this, this is an editorial in which
Mr. Gosser's record is commented upon, is tha 
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