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Full text of "Investigation of organized crime in interstate commerce. Hearings before a Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, United States Senate, Eighty-first Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 202 .."

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INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



u „ HEARINGS 

// "<^ ' (/vAl BEFORE THE 

■ SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 
OEGAJVIZEI) CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-FIRST CONGRESS 

SECOND SESSION 
AND 

EIGHTY-SECOXD CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 



S. Res. 202 



(81st Congress) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF 

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 






ILLINOIS 



/^., 



SEPTEMBER 9; OCTOBER 5, 6, 7, 17, IS, 19; DECEMBER 18, 19, 20, 1950; 
JANUARY 5. 19, 1951 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
«8958 WASHINGTOl^ : 1931 

PUBLIC 



H V(r^1- 



C 



I^.^ 



U. S. SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS 

MAR 26 1^51 



SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME IN 
INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

ESTES KEPAUVER, Tennessee, Chairman 

HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland CHARLES W. TOBEY, New Hampshire 

LESTER C. HUNT, Wyoming ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin 

Rudolph Halley, Chief Counsel 
II 



CONTENTS 



Testimony of — Page 

Accardo, Anthony J., alias Joe Batters, Chicago, 111., accompanied 

by George F. Callaglian, attorney, Chicago, 111 1318-1341 

Adducci, James J., State representative, Second District, Chicago, 

111 636-644 

Aiuppa, Joseph, Cicero, 111 1371-1375 

Amis, William D., investigator for the committee, Washington, 

J) Q _ _ _ _ _ _ 1211—1213' 

Bennett^ Hugo^ Surfside^ Flalll lllllllllllll '275-308,' 33 1-346, 1288-1294 

Bernstein, Eugene, attorney, Chicago, 111 467-515,701-710,916-937 

Black, Abraham J., Morris, 111., accompanied by Raymond E. Traf- 

elet, attornev, Chicago, 111 1 539-543 

Boyle, John S., "State's attorney. Cook County, 111. 111-136, 151-174, 243-249 
Brantman, William M., accountant and income-tax consultant, 

Chicago, 111 651-664 

Butler, George, detective lieutenant, police department, Dallas, 

Tex 1175-1187 

Butler, Joseph J., attornev, Chicago, 111 308-331 

Campagna, Mrs. Charlotte, Berwyn, 111 515-517.645-651 

Campagna, Louis ("Little New York"), Berwyn, 111 53-74,543-557 

Capone, John, Chicago, 111 1251-1260 

Oapone, Ralph J., Chicago, 111., and Mercer, Wis 1226-1250 

Carroll, Leo Joseph, Miami, Fla 973-987 

Cawley, Thomas J., La Salle, 111., accompanied by James F. Cahill, 

representing Ward R. Lewis, public accountant. La Salle, 111 735-742, 

1302-1310 

D'Andrea, Philip, Hemet, Calif 346-372 

DeLucia, Paul, alias Ricca, River Forest, 111 1-52,219-242 

Devereux, W^alter J., Chicago Crime Commission 111-136 

Dragna, Jack I., Los Angeles, Calif., accompanied by Samuel L. Kur- 

land, attorney, Los Angeles, Calif "^ 407-437 

Eardley, Robert C, first assistant attorney general, Illinois 111-136 

Egner, Robert, Chicago, 111., accompanied by Joseph G. Finnert-> , 

attorney- ^ " 875-891 

Elliott, Ivan A., attorney general, State of Illinois 111-136 

Finerty, Joseph E., Gary, Ind 742-743 

Fischetti, Mrs. Anne, Aliami Beach, Fla., accompanied by Charles E. 

Ford, attorney, Washington, D. C 249-255 

Friedman, Charles, Miami Beach, Fla., accompanied bv Ben Cohen, 

attorney, Miami Beach, Fla ' 987-1000 

Fusco, Joseph Charles, Stevens Hotel, Chicago, 111 558-569,593-622 

Gherscovich, Anthony A., administrative assistant, office of State's 

attorney. Cook County, 111 256-262 

Gilbert, Capt. Daniel A., chief investigator, State's attornev's office. 

Cook County, 111 '_ 569-592 

Gioe (Joye), Charles, Chicago, 111 74-110 

Greenberg, Alex, Chicago, 111 1343-1371 

Harrison, Thomas, captain of police, Chicago, 111 622-636 

Hilton, Henry M., attorney, Chicago, Ill___ 1043-1067 

Ing, Bilson, Baltimore, Md., accompanied bv Joseph G. Finnertv, 

attornev 1 '891-91 1 

Jeske, Harold H., Pistakee Bav, McHenrv, 111 1310-1314 

Johnston, William H., Chicago, 111., and Aliami, Fla 1294-1302 

Jones, Edward P., Chicago, 111., accompanied bv Aaron Pavne, at- 
tornev, Chicago, Ill--._ ' ".._ 1163-1175 

Kelly, George, Chicago, 111 1068-1095 



IV CONTEOSPTS 

Testimony of— Continued . or.:- ^*^* 

Kelly, Thomas F., general manager, Continental I'ress Service, Chi- 
cafTO 111 accompanied bv Walter Gallagher and William Dempsev, 

attorneys, Washington, D. C 691-701,710-718,771-848,1095-1136 

Kennelly,'Hon. Martin ?!., mayor, Chicago, 111 111-136 

Kerner " Otto, Jr., United States attorney, northern district of 

Illinois-!. _!.--! 111-136,182-196 

Kutner, Luis, attorney, Chicago, IlL 447-466 

Lenz, Edward N., Crystal Lake, 111., accompanied by Walter Gallagher 

and WiUiam Dempsev, attorneys, Washington, D. C 1001-1021 

McBride, Edward John, Chicago, III, accompanied by Walter Gal- 
lagher and William Dempsey, attorneys, Washington, D. C 437-447 

McCullough, Robert, Cedar Lake, Ind 724-735 

McGoldrick, Edward, Chicago, 111., accompanied by Benjamm J. 

Schultz, attorney, Chicago, 111 1022-1042 

Manno Patrick, alias Pat Manning, Winnetka, 111., accompanied by 

Joseph E. Green, attorney, Chicago, 111 753-755, 118&-1204 

Murphy, Elden, sergeant, Illinois State police, district No. 6, Pontiac, 



IlL 



534-539 



O'Har'a' Ralph J., fiedtville. 111., accompanied by George F. Callag- 

han, attorney, Chicago, 111 io?FToo« 

O'Mara, John J., Winthrop Harbor, 111. _- l2l6-lZ2b 

Prendergast, John C, commissioner of police, Chicago, ill. 111-ldb, Id7-i51 
Pretzie, Frederick, Jr., administrative assistant, Chicago Crime Com- 
mission o«n 1 oo? 

Patton, John, Burnham, 111 .... 1260-1287 

Roe, Theodore, Chicago, 111., accompanied by Edward J. He^ss at- 

tornev, Chicago, 111 . .. . 743-749, 1137 

Rosselli", John, Hollywood, Calif., accompanied by Otto Christensen, 

attorney, Los Angeles, Calif ilQ~Q7l 

Samelson, Morton W^, Chicago, HI---- ahr kaV 7'^~7"7~7'^ o^tZo?! 

Serritella, Daniel Anthony, Chicago, 111 664r-691, 757-771, 953-971 

Shea, James A., Chicago, 111 _ . . . . ? ^7^4 

Silverberg, Max, Belmont Hotel, Chicago, 111. . 719-724 

Spellisy, William, Morris, 111., accompanied by Raymond E. irafelet, 

attorney, Chicago, 111 - - ----- r 517-534 

Stevenson, Hon. Adlai E., Governor of the State of Illinois accom- 
panied by William M. Blair, Jr., Administrative Assistant, and V\ illiam 

Flanagan, head, division of reports ^;,^7rQ" lonZTol i 

Tremont Peter C, Chicago, 111 749-753, 1204-1211 

wS, Ehner^^ HI- 111-136, 154-182, 262-274 

Schedule of exhibits . . 

Saturday, September 9, 1950 \ 

Thursday, October 5, 1950 ^^^ 

Friday, October 6, 1950 ^^^ 

Saturday, October 7, 1950 2r7 

Tuesday, October 17, 1950 *5' 

Wednesday, October 18, 1950 o^^ 

Thursday," October 19, 1950 ^^o 

Monday, December 18, 1950 »^^ 

Tuesday, December 19, 1950 ^'^ 

Wednesday, December 20, 1950 J^sy 

Friday, January 5, 1951 ^„.„ 

Friday, January 19, 1951 J^^^ 

Appendix 



CONTEINTS 
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS 



Number and summary of exhibits 



Intro- 
duced 

on 
page — 



1. Subpena for appearance of Paul DeLucia, alias Ricca, River 

Forest, 111 

2. Record book of Paul DeLucia, showing employes, wages, etc. 

3. Income-tax statements of Paul DeLucia for the years 1947 

1948, and 1949 

4. Two red books of record, submitted by Paul DeLucia 

5. Subpena for appearance of Louis Campagna, River Forest, 

111 

6. Ledger of accounts submitted by Louis Campagna 

7. Brown envelopes containing bills and papers of Louis Cam- 

pagna 

8. Folder containing tax returns of Louis Campagna 

9. Miscellaneous documents of Louis Campagna 

10. Documents pertaining to income-tax returns of Louis Cam- 

pagna 

11. Manila folder containing miscellaneous documents of Louis 

Campagna 

12. Subpena for appearance of Charles Gioe, Chicago, 111 

13. Canceled checks and bank statements of Charles Gioe 

14. Book entitled "Work Sheets, Balance Sheets, Bank Recon- 

ciliations, etc.," submitted by Charles Gioe 

15. Black ledger book of Charles Gioe 

16. Envelope containing balance sheets of Charles Gioe 

17. Penciled copv of income-tax returns of Charles Gioe, for 1941 

and 1942_I 

18. Tax return of Charles Gioe for 1948 

19. Tax return of Charles Gioe for 1949 

20. List of police captains suspended by Chicago Police Depart- 

ment, furnished by Commissioner Prendergast 

21. Statement outlining procedure for obtaining amusement and 

liquor licenses in the city of Chicago and in the State of 
Illinois, furnished by Mayor Kennelly --- 

22. Statement to the committee from Ivan A. Elliott, attorney 

general, State of Illinois, dated July 11, 1950 

23. Chart showing organization of Chicago Police Department, 

furnished by Commissioner Prendergast 

24. Number of crimes reported for the first 10 months of 1949, 

from the Chicago Police Department 

25. Two letters to the committee from Sheriff E. M. Walsh, 

Cook County, 111., dated July 7 and August 17, 1950 

26. Tabulations submitted b\^ Gov. Adali E. Stevenson, showing 

activities of Illinois State Police force, with regard to gam- 
bling 

27. Information furnished by Governor Stevenson with regard to 

to "some 35 syndicates of various cities, etc." 

28. Records submited bv John S. Bovle, State's attornev, Cook 

County, 111 1 1 

29. Information and letters furnished by State's Attorney Boyle 

with regard to sheriff's office car being observed outside 
gambling house 

30. Grand-jury statements re Chief of Police Henry A. Wlekinski^ 

31. Resume of activities and raids made bv State's Attornev 

Boyle, Cook County, 111 1 1 

32. Booklet entitled "Let's Look at His Record," submitted bv 

Sheriff Walsh, Cook County, 111 "_ 

33. List of stockholdings of Hugo Bennett 

34. Package submitted by Philip D'Andrea, containing bank 

statements, deeds, etc 

See footnotes at end of table. 



2 

4 

5 
5 

53 
53 

53 
54 
54 

54 

54 
75 
75 

75 
75 
75 

75 
75 

75 

120 



128 
136 
137 
144 
182 

211 
213 
243 



257 
259 

259 

274 

277 

346 



VI 



CONTENTS 
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS— Continued 



Number and summary of exhibits 



Intro- 
duced 

on 
page — 



Appears 

on 
page — 



35. Statement of William Spellisy, Morris, 111 

36. Photographs of raid on Seven Gables, identified by Elden 

Murphy, sergeant, Illinois State Police 

37. Photostats of figures re Seven Gables operation 

38. Photostats of two checks signed by Max Silverberg, pavable 

to Hugo Bennett, dated October 28, 1944, and May 15, 
1948, in the amounts of $5,000 and $15,000, respectively, 
and photostat of note covering $15,000 loan 

39. Letter dated July 13, 1949, from J. M. Lebit, to Commissioner 

of Internal Revenue 

40. Summarv of evidence now in the record as of a date prior to 

Decernber 18, 1950 

41. Chart showing telegraph lines operated by Continental Press 

Service 

41A. Chart showing wire service operated by Continental Press 
Service and its distributors as of May 1950 

42. Chart showing operations of Trans-American Publishing & 

News Service, as of March 1947 

43. Chronology of certain major events in the history of the wire 

service since 1945 

44. List of witnesses on whom the committee has been unable to 

serve subpenas as of December 18, 1950, and who have not 
appeared in response to the committee's requests 

45. Transcript of the bank account of Trans-American Publish- 

ing & News Service, Inc., with Amalgamated Trust & Sav- 
ings Bank 

46. Photostatic copies of deposit slips of Trans-American Pub- 

lishing & News Service, Inc 

47. Bank deposit slips of currency, showing deposits of Trans- 

American Publishing & News Service, Inc 

48. Recordak checks made to Trans-American Publishing & News 

Service, Inc 

49. Memorandum prepared by Harold G. Robinson, chief investi- 

gator to the committee, summarizing testimony before the 
committee on the wire service in Las Vegas, re Golden Nug- 
get horse book, operated by "Bugsy" Siegel prior to his 
deathj 

50. Telegram dated April 7, 1947, from W. Wortman, Reliable 

News Service, East St. Louis, Mo., to R. & H. Publishers, 
177 North State Street, Chicago, 111., attention Phil Katz.. 

51. Eleven photographs of a building called the Show Place, 

located just outside the Garden State race track, Camden, 
N. J., showing the wigwagging of racing results going on.. 

52. Interview with Richard M. Mangan, by Investigator George 

H. Martin, showing Mangan's employment originally by 
Continental Press Service and then the switch-oflf to Howard 

Sports News 

63. Letter to Hon. Estes Kefauver, dated October 6, 1950, signed 
by E. R. Shute, vice president. Western Union 

54. Sheet of definitions and regulations sent to the committee by 

Western Union relating to leased facilities in the Miami 
Beach area 

55. Various materials from Western Union, including "Leased 

circuits used for dissemination of racing information in the 
State of Florida," showing discontinuation and restoration 
of service; also showing great number of hotels in Miami 
area which had wire service 

56. Letter from Eugene Bernstein, dated July 14, 1947, to Reliable 

News Service, 1919 State Street, East St. Louis, 111 

See footnotes at end of table. 



519 



1383 



537 
537 




721 


1384 


829 


(') 


854 


1386 


854 


e) 


854 


1390 


854 


1390 


854 


1391 



854 

857 
858 
858 
863 



1394 



864 


1394 


871 


1396 


876 


Q) 


889 


1396 


893 


1399 


895 


1400 



896 
921 



1401 
1405 



COXTENTS 
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS— Continued 



vn 



Number and summary of exhibits 



Intro- 
duced 

on 
page — 



Appears 

on 
page — 



57.f List'of^customers of General News Service Bureau, submitted 
by Edward McGoldrick, owner 

58.[ Letter dated February 24, 1947, from George W. Rochester, 
attorney, addressed to Ralph O'Hara, Trans-American 
Publishing & News Service, Chicago, 111., also attachment 
on letterhead of George W. Rochester, attorney, addressed 
to Trans-American "Re People v. Moran, Luczak, and 
Sankiewica," listing certain costs in the amount of $1,170_ 

59. Letter from Ralph J. O'Hara, Trans-American Publishing & 

News Service, Inc., addressed to George W. Rochester, 
acknowledging receipt of letter of February 24, 1947 

60. Figures taken from books and records of Maine-Idaho Club, 

showing gross and net income 

61. Figures taken from books of Maine-Idaho Club for the years 

1948 and 1949, showing the "ins" and "outs," the net 
income, the paper and supplies purchased, rent and moving, 
machines, light and telephone, taxes, repairs, etc 

62. Chart of the policy-wheel operations in Chicago, 111., 1945 to 

1950, composed of information from the files of the com- 
mittee 

63. Photograph taken by department of public safety photog- 

rapher, in Dallas, Tex., showing Pat Manno, alias Manning, 
Paul Jones, and Jack Knapp leaving home of Sheriff Steve 
Guthrie, after conversation which was recorded by tech- 
nician from Dallas district attorney's office 

64. Partial transcript of recordings of conversations between Paul 

Jones, Pat Manno, alias Manning, Lieutenant Butler, and 
Sheriff Steve Guthrie, held in residence of Sheriff Guthrie, 
in Dallas, Tex 

65. Minutes of meeting of industry committee on H. R. 6736, 

American Coin Machine Manufacturer's Association, on 
February 17, 1950 

66. List of distributors of O. D. Jennings Co., submitted by Harold 

H. Jeske, vice president 

67. Map of United States, showing machines sold by O. D. Jen- 

nings Co., in each State in 1949, prepared and submitted 
by Harold H. Jeske, vice president 

68. Chart showing leadership of Capone syndicate and muscling 

into S. & G. in Florida 

69. Photostats of two checks, each in the amount of $5,000, from 

the S. & G. Service, dated February 2 and February 9, 1950, 
payable to the order of Tony Accardo 

70. Resume of property holdings and business interests of Alex 

Greenberg, Chicago, 111 

71. List of gambling establishments taken from list of customers 

of Taylor & Co., Chicago, 111 

72. Books and records of Joseph Aiuppa, Cicero, 111 



1027 

1091 

1091 
1150 

1163 
1176 

1184 
1184 



1405 

1406 

1406 
1407 

1408 
1409 

1410 



1312 


1410 


1312 


1413 


1312 


e) 


1320 


1415 


1325 


1416 


1359 


{') 


1377 
1377 


(0 



' Returned to witness. 
' On file with committee. 



INVESTIGATION OF OKGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1950 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate Organized 

Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Washington, D. C. 
executive session 

The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 10 a. m., in 
room 457, Senate Office Building, Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman) 
presiding. 

Present : Senators Kefauver, "Wiley, and Hunt. 

Also present : Rudolph Halley, chief counsel, and George Robinson, 
associate counsel. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Campagna. I do. 

Mr. DeLucia. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Robinson, will you proceed. 

TESTIMONY OF PAUL DeLUCIA, ALIAS RICCA, RIVER FOREST, ILL. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you state your full name, please ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Paul DeLucia. 

Mr. Robinson. Are you known by any other name ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What are the other names? 

Mr. DeLucia. Ricca and Salvi. 

Mr. Robinson. What ife your present address ? 

Mr. DeLucia. River Forest, 111. 

The ChxURMan. How many different names did you use? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. Any place I go I mention any name 
that comes to my mind. 

Senator Wiley. What did you do that for ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, just a habit. 

Senator Wiley. Just a habit ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I am 52, 51. 

Mr. Robinson. You were served with a subpena on the 5th day of 
September to appear before the committee and produce certain records ; 
is that correct? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 



2 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMAIERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Do you liave those records with you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Would you produce them? 

]Mr. Chairman, may I olfer in evidence the subpena? 

The Chairman. Yes; the subpena will be received in evidence. It 
describes upon the face of it the records that the witness has been 
required to bring. It will be put in the record at this point as exhibit 
No. 1. 

(Exhibit No. 1 appears in the appendix on p. 1379.) 

Mr. DeLucia. May I explain something? The subpena was to 
bring the records for 10 years. I only got the records from 1947. 
That is the day I came out from the penitentiary. Before that I was 

3 years and 8 months in the penitentiary, and during that time there 
was a tax settlement, so all the records I don't have any more. I can 
only give you the records since I came out. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you go to the penitentiary ? 
Mr. DeLucia. 1944— the last day of 1943. 
Mr. Robinson. When did you come out ? 
Mr. DeLucia. 1947. 

Mr. Robinson. I understand these records which you are producing 
are only from the time that you came out of the penitentiary. 
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; that is all I have. 

Mr. Robinson. You have no records from 1940 until the time that 
you went into the penitentiary? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; I filed my income tax regularly but I haven't 
got them. 

Mr. Robinson. You have no canceled checks for that period ? 
Mr. DeLucia. No ; that is all gone. 
Mr. Robinson. Did you have any canceled checks ? 
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, sure. 
Mr. Robinson. Where are they? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. When I come out, I was told by my 
lawyer that the old records were no good any more and they were all 
settled and I could do what I want. 

Senator Wiley. Who told you that ? 
Mr. DeLucia. My lawyer. 

Senator Wiley. Who is your lawyer? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein. The tax man told me the records were 
no good any more so I just got rid of them. 

Senator Wiley. Give me the name of that lawyer. 

Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein, Eugene Bernstein. He is a tax man. He 
is the fellow who took my income-tax case with the Government? 

Senator Wiley. Was he a Government man ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; he was my lawyer. 

Senator Wiley. Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. I got those records from him when I came out. 

Senator Wiley. Did you have any Kansas City lawyer ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Wiley. No ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you destroy the records or did Mr. Bernstein? 

Mr. DeLucia. I did. I got a room and got rid of them. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you destroy them ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEiRSTATE COMMERCE 3 

Mr. DeLucia. Shortly after I come out. Shortly after he gave them 
to me. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Shortly after you came out ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Shortly after he give them to me. 

Mr. Robinson. Can you fix the approximate time when you did 
destroy them, what year ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I tliink 1947, the latter part of 1947. 

Mr. Robinson. You destroyed the records that j^ou had from 1940 
up until the time that you went into the penitentiary in 1947 ; is that 
right ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. Let me explain this. Mr. Bernstein told me 
that my income-tax case was cleared up to 1943. All my tax with the 
Government was settled up to 1943. That was the year I went to jail. 
After that I was 3 years and 8 months in jail, and of course I had 
nothing to show, so when he gave me the records, he said, "You can do 
as you want with the records, the records are worthless, the tax is 
settled,'' and that is all. 

Mr. Robinson. Did Mr. Bernstein tell you to destroy them ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; he told me they are useless and do what you 
want. 

Mr. Robinson. Let us get it clear. During the time from 1940 to 
the time you went to the penitentiary, was Mr. Bernstein preparing 
your income-tax returns ? 

Mr. DeLuc'a. No ; not from 1940. 

Mr. Robinson. I am saying from 1940 until the time you went into 
the penitentiary. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. He got my case when I was in jail. 

Mr. Robinson. AVlio prepared your tax returns from 1940 to the 
time you went to jail ? 

]Mr. DeLucia. Myself. 

]Mr. Robinson. You prepared them yourself ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. And you have no cancelled checks, no books show- 
ing receipts and expenditures for the period from 1940 until the time 
you went into the penitentiary ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Robinson. You destroyed all of them ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you keep such books? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes; I had a checkbook with Northern Trust. 
You know those records. After all, them days there was nothing for 
me to keep. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have a bank account at that time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; with the Nortliern Trust. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have bank statements ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you destroy all the bank statements ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. The Northern Trust. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you destroy all check stubs? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you destroy all the copies of your tax returns 
for that period? 

Mr. DeLucia. Whatever I got from him, I destroyed. It was all 
that he had. He had all the stuff to prepare my case with the Tax 



4 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Court. So I got those records back, and he said, "Do what you 
want," and I destroyed them. 

Mr. Robinson. During that time that you were in the penitentiary, 
did somebody operate your business for you 'i 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Who ? 

Mr. DeLucia. They did not operate it. I rent my farm to Francis 
Corri, and I got $7 an acre rent. That was filed. 

Mr. Robinson. Who kept the books for you while you were in the 
penitentiary ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein. 

Mr. Robinson. Where are the books that were kept at the time 
you were in the penitentiary? 

Mr. DeLucia. Them 3 years went together with all the stuff he 
gave me. Naturally I got rid of all that. 

Mr. Robinson. You destroyed all that at the time you came out of 
the penitentiary? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes; from the time I come out, there it is [indi- 
cating] . 

Mr, Robinson. Now, when Mr. Bernstein was preparing your tax 
returns, what information did you submit to him as a basis for 
preparing the returns? 

Mr. DeLucia. It was very easy. The rent I was getting from the 
farm was so much. I think it was about 6 or 7 thousand dollars a 
year. 

The Chairman. How did you destroy the records ? Did you throw 
them away or burn them ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I burned them. They were useless. I didn't know 
this was going to come up. 

The Chairman. Did you burn them? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes; I burned them. 

Mr. Robinson. Would you take these records and describe what 
each one is? 

Mr. DeLucia. This is the book where all the people work, their 
security number and all that. 

The Chairman. Will you identify them as we go along for the 
record, so we can put them in as exhibits ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. DeLucia. These are my income tax. 

The Chairman. Let this be marked as "Exhibit No. 2." 

(Exhibit No. 2 was returned to witness after analysis by the com- 
mittee.) 

Mr. Robinson. Directing your attention to exhibit 2, would you 
describe what that book is ? 

Mr. DeLucia. You know I am not familiar with the book because 
Bernstein kept it. That is supposed to be the agenda where the 
men work and how much they get a year. You know, you are sup- 
posed to report to the Government how much you pay them a year. 
If you pay over $500, you have to report that, and their security 
number. 

Mr. Robinson. On exhibit 2, when did you start keeping that book ? 

Mr. DeLucia. In 1947. What is there, I am not very much familiar. 
He has been taking care of all that. 



ORGANIZEiD CRIME. IN INTEiRSTATE COMMERCE O 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Who keeps the book for you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein. 

Mr. Robinson. All right. 

The Chairman. All right, let us go on with the next exhibit. That 
will be made exhibit No. 2 to the testimony. 

Mr. Robinson. What are those j)apers? 

Mr. DeLucia. These are the income-tax returns. 

Mr. Robinson. For what period ? 

Mr. DeLucia. 1947, 1948, 1949. 

The Chairman. That will be exhibit No. 3. 

Mr. Robinson. These two red books are marked "Exhibit No. 4." 

The ChairjMan. Those will be combined as exhibit No. 4. 

(Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 were later returned to witness.) 

Mr. Robinson. What are those ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is all the exj)ense. 

Mr. Robinson. Exhibits 4 and 5 pertain to what? 

Mr. DeLucia. To the farm — my business. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any books or records showing interest 
held in any property or any business other than the ones you have 
submitted ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. I own no interest. I only own about 170 shares 
or 180 shares of Bank of America. I think that is in there, too. Those 
shares turn dividends, and that is coming in, and I turn that in. Any- 
way I have about 170 or 180 shares of Bank of America stock. That 
book does not show my house at River Forest and my house at Long 
Beach. 

Mr. Robinson. You receive income from those properties? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any correspondence relating to any of 
these documents ? 

Mr. DeLucia. What? 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any correspondence relating to any 
of these documents ? 

The Chairman. Any letters. 

Mr. DeLucia. Anything that is there can be backed up with checks 
or bills. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have the canceled checks ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Where are they ? 

]\Ir. DeLucia. I did not bring them with me. If you want them, 
I will bring them. I didn't think it was necessary. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have those ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson, Do you have them in your possession ? 

Mr. DeLucia. All the records from 1947, I got. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Do you have them in your rtossession ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Does Mr. Bernstein ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I have. 

Mr. Robinson. Why were those not produced ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I didn't know you needed it. That is all there. I 
didn't know you wanted that. 



6 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EoBiNSON. They are called for by the subpena, that is, the can- 
celed checks. 

Mr. DeLucia. I am sorry. I did not understand that. 

The Chairman. Will you send or bring in the canceled checks as 
Mr. Robinson directs? 

Mr. DeLucia. Certainly, 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other documents besides the can- 
celed checks that you did not produce ? 

Mr. DeLucia. What other documents are you talking about ? 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any bank statements ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you produce all of those statements? 

Mr. DeLucia. Certainly. 

Mr. Robinson. What properties do you presently own, Mr. DeLucia ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I own a house in Long Beach and a house at River 
Forest. 

The Chairman. Where is that? 

Mr. DeLucia. Illinois. And the farm in Illinois. 

The Chairman. Where is the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. In Kendall County, 111. 

Mr. Robinson. How^ large is the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. 1,100 acres. 

Mr. Robinson. Wliat is the value of it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, you mean right now? 

Mr. Robinson. If you know? 

Mr. DeLucia. They just sold some land around there for $450 an 
acre, so you can figure it out. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you buy that farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you buy it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think in 1941 or 1942. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you pay for it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I paid $130 an acre from the Prudential Co. I paid 
down $35,000 and year by year I have been paying the mortgage. I 
think I still owe about $80,000. 

Mr. Robinson. How much improvements have you put on it ? 

The Chairman. What was the total purchase price ? 

Mr. DeLucia. $130,000, something around there. 

Mr. Robinson. How much improvements have you put on it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I would say over $100,000. 

Mr. Robinson. Since 1947 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. I build something previous to that, but 
most of the building I did from 1947 on. 

Mr. Robinson. You put $100,000 improvements on it since 1947? 

Mr. DeLucia. Maybe more than that. Don't keep me to it. 

Mr. Robinson. Approximately. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How much improvement did you put on it before 
1947? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I suppose I build a corn crib there about $4,500. 
It is too far gone. I believe $10,000 or something like that. I wouldn't 
know for sure. 

Senator Wiley. When you bought the farm, did you buy any cows, 
horses, or machinery ? 



OR^ATSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 7 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; you see, the insurance company had that. 

Senator Wiley. You just bought the land ? 

Mr. DeLucia. They had it rented. I bought the land. 

Senator Wiley. How much do you have on it now in horses, cows, 
machinery, and so forth? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I got about 120 steers — not milk cows, but heifers, 
steers, you know ; about 300 pigs ; about two or three hundred chickens, 
horses. 

Senator Wiley. Machinery ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Huh? 

Senator Wiley. Machinery ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How much did you spend for all that? 

Mr. DeLucia. It is all in there, Senator. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you receive any revenue from the farm? ' 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Approximately how much do you receive annually 
in revenue from the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. It is in the income tax. I had a little memorandum. 
I think the first year was $8,000, or something like that, the second 
year $25,000, the third year was $42,000, or something like that. 

Mr. Robinson. What year did you receive $42,000? 

Mr. DeLucia. Last year. That is all in there on the income tax. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the property that you have at River Forest? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is a house and a lot. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that your residence ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. 1938. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you pay for it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. $25,000. I paid $25,000 for the house and I paid 
about $4,000 for the lot. It was a good buy. 

Mr. Robinson. How much improvements have you put on that? 

Mr, DeLucia, On the house I put around $30,000 improvement 
and on the lot, which cost me around $4,000 as close as I remember, 
that is to improve. It was all a mess, I leveled it off. 

Senator Wiley. Did you build the house ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I built an addition to the house. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the value of the other property at Long 
Beach ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I bought a house for $14,000. I bought that in 1934. 
I remember that. Since then I made some improvement and all 
that. Then I bought about four extra lots. Do you want to know 
the value now ? 

Mr. Robinson. If you know. 

Mr. DeLucia. The house burned down, and I only got a caretaker 
house there, so you can figure for yourself. I don't know. It prob- 
ably went up a lot. I suppose I can get forty or fifty thousand dollars 
for that place if I wanted to sell it. 

Mr. Robinson. What other property do you have? 

Mr. DeLucia, That is about all. 

Mr. Robinson. "That is about all." Is there any other that you 
do have? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 



8 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. Stocks and bonds ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, I have stocks. I have about $11,000 worth of 
stock. 

Senator Wiley. What company? 

Mr. DeLucia. Government stock, what you call it, war bonds. 

Mr. Robinson. Government bonds. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other bonds ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any stock ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Stock I told you. 

Senator Wiley. Bank of America. 

Mr. Dp:Lucia. Yes, and I think I have two or three shares of the 
Farmer Grange company. That is a mutual affair there. You bring 
your stuff in and you get a dividend tliere every year. You buy from 
them. It is a Farmer Grange company. 

Mr. Robinson. Approximately what is the total value of the stock 
you have ^ 

Mr. DeLucia. The Bank of America today costs about $27 a share. 

Mr. Robinson. How many shares did you say you have? 

Mr. DeLucia. About 180. 

Mr. Robinson. That is all the stock you own? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is all I can recall. 

Senator Wiley. How about cash ? How much cash do you have ? 

Mr. DeLucia. How much cash I got. Do I have to tell you that, 



sir 



Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I think I got about close to $40,000. 

Senator AViley. In cash ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Do you have any safety deposit boxes ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I got it in the room or some other place. 

Senator Wiley. Where is it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. If I tell you, you can't get it out of there anyway. 

The Chairman. This is an executive session. 

Mr. DeLucia. Do I have to tell it ? 

The Chairman. You have to tell it. 

Mr. DeLucia. I got it home. 

Senator Wiley. Do you have any safety deposit boxes in any banks? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. What bank ? 

Mr. DeLucia. First National Bank. 

Senator Wiley. Any other bank? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. . 

Senator Wiley. First National Bank of Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What do you keep in your safety deposit box ? 

Mr. DeLucia. All the documents and stuff. 

Mr. Halley. Any cash ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I keep money there, too. 

Mr. Haeley. Do you have cash there now, too? 

Mr. DeLucia. Not now. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own any diamonds ? 

Mr. DeLucia. My Mrs. has. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9 

Mr. Halley, Will you estimate tlie value of the diamonds? 

Mr. DeLucia. Now, I don't know what she has. She has a ring . 

Mr. Halley. AVould you estimate the value of the diamond ^ 

]\lr. DeLucia. No. A bracelet or something like that. 

Mr. Halley. What is your best estimate of the value ? What did 
you pay for them altogether? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know about the pricing of those things. It 
was kind of a small affair. 

The CiiAiKMAN. $5,000 or $10,000 ? 

Mr. DeLl^cia. I would say around four or five thousand dollars, 
something like that. 

Senator Wiley. That is your wife you are talking about? 

Mr, DeLucia, Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Did you make any gifts to anybody else during this 
period since you came out ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Wiley. Does your wife have any stock in her name? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Wiley. Any property? 

Mr. DeLucia. The house at River Forest and the house at Long 
Beach is in her name and the farm is in my name and her name. 

Senator Wiley. Does she have a safety deposit box ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No : we have a joint deposit box. 

Senator Wiley. Have you given to her any other property except 
what you mentioned ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Have you any children? 
Mr. DeLucia, Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. How many? 

Mr. DeLu'cia. Three. 

Senator Wiley. What have you done for them ? 

Mr. DeLucia, Well, the one is married. 

Senator Wiley. I understand. But what have you given to them, 
or conveyed to them ? Have you given them any property ? 
Mr. DeLucia. No. 
Senator Wiley, Any stock? 
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I had a trust fund for them. 
Senator Wiley. How much did you set that up for ? 
Mr, DeLucia, $20,000, 
Senator Wiley. When did you do that? 
Mr. DeLucia, 1936. 

Senator Wiley. Have you set up any other funds since? 
Mr. DeLucia. For my boy, $20,000 at the same time. 
Senator Wiley. One boy and one girl ? 
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 
Senator Wiley. That was in 1936 ? 
Mr. DeLucia. Yes, 

Senator Wiley. Have you put any money in it since then ? 
Mr. DeLucia. No, not since then. 
Senator Wiley. Do you carrv any insurance? 
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. ' 
Senator Wiley. Life insurance ? 
Mr. DeLucia, Yes, 

6S958 — 51 — pt. 5 2 



10 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. How much are the premiums on your life insur- 
ance? 

Mr. DeLttcia. With the Northwest Wisconsin. 

Senator Wilet. That is a good company. 

Mr, DeLucia. I think I pay about seven or eight hundred dollars 
a year. It is a $20,000 policy. There are different ones, five, five, and 
ten. 

Senator Wiley, That is all you carry ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, as far as I recall. 

The Chairman. Very well. Let us proceed. 

Mr. DeLucia, My boy, the little one, I took a policy — I was going to 
take the same policy for the little boy, and I was paying $2,000 a year, 
but I dropped it since 1940 or 1939. 

Senator Wiley. This book indicates your income since you came 
out of prison ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. You were paroled, were you not ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. And that is your only source of income, that which, 
you have enumerated here? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. From your farm and from your stocks. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Any other sources ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley, And from the you have made all the improvements 
and investments since 1947 ? 

Mr, DeLucia. No, I put my money in there. 

Senator Wiley. You had some money when you went to the peni- 
tentiary ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. How much did you have when you went to the 
penitentiary ? 

Mr, DeLucia. Three hundred thousand dollars. 

Senator Wiley. Who paid the fine? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Senator Wiley, There was $10,000 paid. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You never found out who paid it? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You have no suspicion ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Wiley. Wlio was your attorney in your parole case? 

Mr. DeLucia. What do you mean ? 

Senator Wiley. Wlien you came out of prison you were paroled. 

Mr. DeLucia, Yes, 

Senator Wiley. How big a sentence did you get? 

Mr. DeLucia, Ten years. 

Senator Wiley. You served 3 years? 

Mr. DeLucia, Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You are out on parole now? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. You were not pardoned? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 11 

Senator "Wiley. Who was your attorney? 

Mr. DeLucia. That story is well known. It is Mr. Dillon. 

Senator Wiley. Where is he, from St. Louis? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. St. Louis, Mo.? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. What is his first name ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I don't know his first name. 

Senator Wiley. How much did you pay him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. After I came out we paid him $10,000. Campagna 
paid $5,000 and I paid $5,000. 

Senator Wiley. And when you went in. you had $300,000 in cash? 

Mr. DeLlxia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Where was that stored ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I put it away some place. 

Senator Wiley. Where ? 

Mr. DeLucia. In my house. 

Senator Wiley. Do you have special vaults in your house ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Xo. 

Senator Wiley. How did you accumulate the $300,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. Gambling. 

Senator Weley. Was it involved in relation to pressure put on the 
moving-picture concern ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Xo. I never got anything from the movie picture 
but jobs. 

Senator Wiley. What kind of gambling was it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Hoi-ses, dice, and all that. 

Mr. KoBiNsox. Do you have a son-in-law? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What business is he in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Electrical business. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How much did you put in that business? 

Mr. DeLucia. I dicbvt put nothing in it. 

Mr. R'jBixsox'. Didn't 3'ou set him up in that business? 

Mr. DeLucia. Xo, sir. 

Mr. RoBix'sox. How did he finance it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He was in the Army. He had some money saved. 
He came out. He didn't have much to invest there anyway. 

Mr. RoBiNsox^ You never put any money into that business ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Xo, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox'. How much have you had in cash in your home al 
anv one time ? 

5lr. DeLucia. Well, the most I had was $300,000. 

Mr. RoBixsox-^. When did you have that, at the time you went into 
the penitentiary ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I had that mixed up, you see. I had some in the box 
and some at home. When I went away, I took it out of the box and 
I put it away. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How much have you had in the safe-deposit box in 
cash at anv one time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I had $100,000 sometimes. 

Mr. RoBixsox'. You never had any more than that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, maybe more. I don't recall those things. That 
is a long time ago. 



12 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. How long Rgo 'I 

Mr. DeLucia. That is around 1940 or 1941, something like tliat. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have a safe-deposit box during the 1930's? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember now how long I got the box. I 
think I had it before, around 1938 or 1939, something like that. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you know Mr. Dillon before you went into the 
penitentiary ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know how he was retained? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I understand Mrs. Campagna knowed some- 
body in St. Louis and she made the connection and Mr. Dillon went 
for us. That story is well known. 

Mr. Robinson. You had nothing to do with it yourself? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir ; I paid him after I got out. I paid my share 
of $5,000. 

Mr. Halley. Does anybody owe you any money today ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; the farmer owes me $5,000. 

Mr. Halley. Does anybody ow^e you sums in excess of $10,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Nobody wdiatsoever? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Wiley. What did you mean by saying that story is well 
known, referring to Dillon ? 

Mr. DeLucia. It wfjs iuA'estigated hy tlie House committee, and all 
that. 

Senator Wiley. Do you know the facts ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is all I know. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any interest in any other business since 
you came out of the penitentiary ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. And you have listed all the stock and all the property 
that you had. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr, Robinson. What interest did you have prior to the time that you 
went to the penitentiary in businesses ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No interest whatsoever. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any interest in any gambling 
establishments in Chicago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Never at any time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever receive any revenue or any income from 
any gambling establishments? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You mentioned that you received some money from 
gambling. 

Ml', DeLucia. Yes, sir ; my own gambling. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you receive that? 

Mr. DeLucia. I done my own gambling. 

Mr. Robinson. Just how ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I used to go out to the race track. Somebody wants 
to put out a lot of money and somebody wants to bet $10,000 on a horse, 
and if he put it in the totalizer, naturally the price go down, so I used 
to hold the bet. If I thought it was all right, I hold it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 13 

INIr. Robinson. Were you a betting commissioner? 

Mv. DeLucia. No ; I was betting for myself. 

Mr. Robinson. Where did you place the bets ? 

Mr. DeLucia. With myself. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you handle bets for anyone else? 

Mr. DeLucia. Why, sure. No; what do you mean by anyone else? 
You mean they bet with me ? Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Who bet with you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. A lot of people bet with me. I don't recall. That is 
a long time ago. 

Mr. Robinson. Can you recall anyone of the larger bettors with 
you? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; Al Capone was one. 

Mr. Robinson. Who else ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I didn't have many of those people. 
A lot of people would come. There is a lot of touts come around and 
make bets. 

Mr. Robinson. Is he the only one you can remember ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did Frank Erickson ever bet with you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Frank Costello ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson, How^ large a sum would you handle? 

Mr. DeLucia. I would handle up to $1,000. You see, Al was a big 
bettor. He would bet $10,000 on a race, and $5,000, but he would 
spread it around. Sometimes I take a piece, sometimes I don't. 

Mr. Robinson. How large a sum would you handle in gambling 
over a space of a year ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That I wouldn't be able to tell you. Them days are 
gone. I just can't remember. 

Mr. Robinson. Would it be $2,000 or $100,000 or $50,000 or what? 

Mr. DeLucia. You mean in a year? 

Mr. Robinson. In a year's time. 

Mr. DeLucia. Gee, I don't know. I suppose sometimes I would 
make $100,000 a year or something like that, sometimes less. 

Senator Wiley. You would make that much clear ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Sure. 

Mr. Robinson. How much would you handle? 

Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't know. That is a thing that I don't recall. 

The Chairman. A million dollars or two million? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, not a million dollars. I don't know. I just lost 
all track of that stuif. After all, I haven't bothered for the last 7 or 8 
years with that stuff. 

Mr. Robinson. Would you handle three or four hundred thousand 
dollars during the course of a year? 

Mr. DeLucia. Between losing and winning, because you lose, too, 
you have to think of that. 

Mr. Robinson. That is right. 

Mr, DeLucia. I don't know. 

The Chairman. It goes without saying that if you made 
$100,000 

Mr. DeLucia. The way I used to do it, I put the money away, and 
at the end of the year what I w4n, I win. That is all. 



14 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Did you receive any other income from anything 
else except from gambling? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; that is all I made my money. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any interest in the liquor busi- 
ness ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. In the beer business? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. At no time did you ever have any interest or receive 
any income from the sale of liquor or the manufacture of liquor ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. When did you come to this country ? 

Mr. DeLucia. 1920. 

Senator Wiley. Did you ever have any interest in the white-slave 
trade ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no. 

Senator Wiley. Who did you marry ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I married a girl, a home girl. 

Senator Wiley. An Italian? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. Born in this country ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, she came here when she was about 6 j^ears old. 

Senator Wiley. Are you an American citizen ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. When did you get your full citizenship papers? 

Mr. DeLucia. In 1927 or 1928. 

Senator Wiley. When did you start in the gambling business? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I think it was around, the heavy part was 
around 1929 or so, from 1929 on. 

Mr. Robinson. Are you a relative of Al Capone? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. No family relationship ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you first come to Chicago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. 1920. 

Mr. Robinson. T\Tiat were you doing at that time in Chicago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was working with the Dandy Theater. There 
was an Italian theater in the street, and I w^as working there. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you a waiter there ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, that was a theater, Italian theater. Then I went 
to work at the Belanapoli Restaurant. That is an Italian restaurant. 

Mr. Robinson. You were a waiter there ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I was day manager there. 

Mr. Robinson. Where did you work after that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. After that I started to make friends and I started 
to get in the gambling business. 

Mr. Robinson. What friends did you make? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, fellows that gambled. 

Mr. Robinson. Name some of them. 

Mr. DeLucia. Al used to come there — Al Capone, and Frank Nitti. 

Mr. Robinson. Who else? 

Mr. DeLucia. Who else ? That is all I can remember. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you first make the acquaintance of Nitti? 

Mr. DeLucia. About that time. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15 

Mr. KoBiNSON. What year was that? 

Mr. DeLucia. 1928 or 1929, something like that. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you go to work for Nitti ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; we were friends. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you ever engaged in any activity with Nitti, 
business activities ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir ; outside of being friends. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever work for Capone ? 

JNIr. DeLucia. No ; I was friends with Capone. 

Mr. Robinson. How much were you taking at that time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. There you go. You go into this stuff. I would not 
be able to tell, I don't remember. 

Mr. Robinson. "WTiat was Nitti's business? 

Mr. DeLucia. Nitti? Oh, Nitti had money of his own. I don't 
know. He was never in need of any money or something like that. 

Mr. Robinson. A^Hiere did he get it? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you a very close friend of his ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was a very close friend, I mean close friend, you 
know, like you get together. 

Mr. Robinson. You say you don't know where he got his money? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. Would he tell me ? 

Mr. Robinson. You have no knowledge of where Nitti got any of 
his money ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Was he associated with Capone? 

Mr. DeLucia. He was kind of related to Capone. 

Mr. Robinson. What business was Capone in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. You know Capone. 

]\Ir. Robinson. You tell me. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. AAliat business was he in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know what business he was in. All I know 
he was friends with me at the time, but I didn't know his business. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you visit back and forth with Capone? 

Mr. DeLucla.. Yes ; I used to see him at the track. 

Mr. Robinson. And Nitti ? 

[Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. "V\nio were the other friends you made at that time? 

Mr. DeLucia. There are so many. 

Mr. Robinson. Name some. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember. Mv mind is kind of hazy on that 
stuff. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you meet Campagna at that time. 

Mr. DeLucia. No; a little later on. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you meet Gioe ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He was a boy from the neighborhood. I don't re- 
member when. I know a lot of these people. 

Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first meet Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He was a boy from the neighborhood too. He is now 
my neighbor, a few blocks from me. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Over 10 years, at least. 



16 ORGAlSriZED CRIMEi IN IIsTTERSTATE COMMERCE ' 

Mr. Hallet, Did you see Tony Accardo when he came to jail to 
visit? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. That was when he posed as a lawyer? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. He is a good friend of yours ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. He was trying to work on yonr parole, is that right? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Charles Fischetti? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long? 

Mr. DeLucia. I know Charles Fischetti about 20 years or so. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco Fischetti ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Have you known him 20 years, too ? 

]\Ir. DeLucia. No ; less than that. 

Mr. Halley. Well, about 15 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Maybe, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Ed Vogel ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Who ? 

Mr. Halley. Ed Vogel. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I see him. 

Mr. Halley. You have known him for many years, haven't you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Guzik ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long? 

Mr. DeLucia, For a long time. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Ralph Capone? 

]\Ir. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Have you known him for a long time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he bet with you, too ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Hymie Levine ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a good friend of yours ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; but he is sick now. He is paralyzed. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Levine ? 

Mr. DeLucia. About 10 or 12 years or 15 years. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Pisano ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. About the same time, maybe 15 years. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Murray Humphreys ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. All these people I know to see them, but I 
have never had anything to do with them. 

Mr. Halley. But you have known them all for many years. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Ralph Pearce ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 17 

Mr. Halley. Have you known him for many years ? 

IMr. DeLucia. I have known Ralph Pearce for 10 or 15 years. 

Mr. Halley. How many of those people have you had any kind 
of business dealing with? 

Mr. DeLucia. I never had any business dealing with any of them. 

Mr. Halley. Did any of them bet with you ? 

Mr. DeLucia, No, not them, 

Mr. Halley. How about Tony Accardo, do you have any business 
dealings with him? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

ISIr. Halley. Never at any time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Never, 

Mr. Halley. Does that include betting on horse races ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; he never bet with me. 

Mr. Halley. You never had any business dealings with him? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley, Do you know Frank Costello ? 

Mr. DeLucia, Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Frank Costello ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I have known Frank Costello for a long time. I 
haven't seen him for the last 10 or 12 years. 

Mv. Halley. How did you happen to meet Frank Costello ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think I met him at the track. 

Mr. Halley. What track? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think it was the Hawthorne track here in Chicago. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go out to Sportsman's Park in Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. I used to ; not now, 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Bill Johnston ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr, Halley. Did you ever know Bill Johnston ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr, Halley. Do you know who he is ? 

Mr, DeLucia. No. 

Mr, Halley, Do you know Eddy O'Hare ? 

Mr, DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know him? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John Patton? 

Mr, DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known John Patton ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I would say at least 20 years, 

Mr. Halley. How did you happen to know John Patton ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He was around in Florida or some place like that. 

Mr, Halley. Where in Florida did you see him, Miami ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Harry Russell? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long? 

Mr. DeLucia, Ten or fifteen years, 

Mr. Halley. Harry Russell is in the betting business too, isn't he? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; I heard that he was. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever place bets with Harry Russell? 

Mr, DeLucia, Yes. 



18 ORGANIZED CRIMEI IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Did you place bets with him or he with you? 

Mr. DeLucia. He had a commission house at that time. 

Mr. Halley. In Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't he a partner of Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Where was Harry Kussell's commission house ? 

Mr. DeLucia. State and Lake Building. 

Mr. Halley. When you placed bets with Harry Russell were you 
laying off big bets or were you betting for yourself ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was betting for myself. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever lay off with Harry Russell ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, it depends what you want to call it. I used to 
be with him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you lay off. You know the difference between 
betting for yourself and laying off. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever lay off bets with anybody ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; not very often. 

Mr. Halley. Ever? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't recall that. 

Mr. Halley. Not even once? 

Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't be able to recall that. I don't recall at all. 

Mr. Halley. Is it possible? 

Mr. DeLucia. Maybe sometime. I wouldn't say that it wasn't. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You never met him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested with Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where? 

Mr. DeLucia. He was with Lucky. 

Mr. Halley. Lucky Luciano? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In the Congress Hotel? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What were you doing there ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was in the lobby and I ran across him. 

Mr. Halley. You know Lucky Luciano ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Lucky ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I would say about 15 years, or 15 or 16 years, some- 
thing like that. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Dragna ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I met him in California on one of my trips. I ran 
across him in the restaurant. 

Mr. Halley. You met Jack Dragna once in your life ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Once or twice, something like that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 19 

Mr. Halley. Which is it? You are under oath; let us be accurate. 

Mr. DeLucia. Maybe in California once or twice. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to his home? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley, What restaurant did vou see Jack Dragna in? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think it was the Brown Derby. I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. In Los Angeles ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Adamo ? They call him MoMo. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know him. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Big Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Longy Zwillman ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Zwillman? 

Mr. DeLucia. Who ? 

Mr. Halley. Zwillman. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie Pisano ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Maybe you know him by the name of Anthony 
Carfano. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You never met Carfano? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. You see, all these names you mention, maybe 
I see them some day, but I never had anything to do with them. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Little Augie ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. When you go to Florida, where do you stay? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was only 1 year in Florida, 1938. I had a house 
there. 

Mr. Halley. Where was your house, Miami Beach ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to the Sands Hotel ? 

IVIr. DeLucia. No.' 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to Wofford Hotel ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tom Cassera ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know who he is ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Fred Angersola ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Johnny King? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. He is from Cleveland. 

Mr. DeLucia. I might have met him. I don't remember. I might 
have met him, but I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Massei ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. From Detroit ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 



20 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. He is in Miami now. 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Yon never met him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike Cappolo ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do yon know Tony Civetta? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Bugsy Seigel? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bugsy Seigel. I might have seen him at the track 
sometime. I never had much to do with him. 

Mr. Halley. But you did know him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Mickey Cohen ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No*^. 

Mr. Halley. Vincent Mangano? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. He lives in New York. 

Mr. Delucia. What is his name ? 

Mr. Halley. Mangano. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Philip Mangano? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joseph Prof aci ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of him, Joseph Prof aci? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Joseph Prof aci ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. You see, all these names, I might have seen 
them at some time or other, but I didn't have anything to do with 
them. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Vito Genovese ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ? I think you said you 
didn't. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Michael Morani ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You know him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He has a restaurant in New York I used to 
go to. 

Mr. Halley. What restaurant ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Somewhere on Fifty-second Street. 

-Mr. Halley. What is the name of it? 

Mr. DeLucia. Progressivio. 

Mr. Halley. On Fifty-sixth Street near Seventh Avenue? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. They have good food there. 

Mr. Halley. Morani owns that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is ni}^ understanding. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21 

• 

Mr. Halley. Who did you meet there? 

Mr. DeLucia, That is all. I used to go and eat and get out of 
there. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Dragna ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Italian-American Protective 
League ( 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of Unio Siciliano ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; but that has been changed to either 

Mr. Halley. To the Italo-American Union. 

Mr. DeLucia. They changed the title. I was a member there when 
I went to the penitentiary. But since then I never paid any of my 
dues. That is another insurance I had. 

Mr. Halley. What was the Unio Siciliano? 

Mr. DeLucia. That was a society. 

jSIr. Halley. W^ere you an officer or a member ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was a member. 

Mr. Halley. Was that an organization in Chicago that you be- 
longed to? 

Mr, DeLucia. That is an insurance organization. 

Mr. Halley. An insurance organization? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Tell the committee something about it. Is it all over 
the country or just in Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think it is only in Chicago. 

Mr. Halley. You think it is only in Chicago ? 

Mv. DeLucia. I am pretty sure of that. 

Mr. Halley. Who else belonged to the union in Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. When I was there Joe Bulger was the president, Fer- 
rata was the secretary and Cocia was somebody else there, he was 
treasurer or something like that. I had myself and my whole family 
insured there, but I have not paid any more since I came out. 

Mr. Halley. Was there a place where you had meetings? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; there is no meeting there. 

Mr. Halley. Where were the headquarters of the union? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think on Washington Street. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat was the address? 

Mr. DeLucia. Ill or something like that. 

Mr. Halley. Did you belong ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes; but now I don't belong. I haven't paid my 
dues. 

^Ir. Halley. Did Tony Accardo belong when you belonged ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know that. 
. Mr. Halley. How much were the dues ? 

Mr. DeLucia. A few dollars a month or year. 

Mr. Halley. How much? 

Mr. DeLucia. I used to pay for everybodv. I think it was about 
$100. I don't know, $120 a year. 

]Mr. Halley. You mean for everybody in your family? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did they ever have meetings of the society ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I never was to any. 

Mr. Halley. You never attended a meeting? 



22 ORGANIZED CRLMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DeLucia. They have a lodge and each lodge once in a while will 
have a party or something. That is all. 

Mr. Halley. Were there a lot of lodges in Chicago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. They have about 40 or 50 lodges. 

Mr. Halley. Right in Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. Maybe they have 20. I don't know what they got. 

Mr. Halley. Were there lodges in other cities besides Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I don't think they have them outside 
of Chicago. 

Mr. Halley. None outside of Chicago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You say it is called the Italo- American Union? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. That was the old LTnio Siciliano. 

Mr. Halley. And it is still there in Chicago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And it is still on Washington Street ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, before they were on State Street, and then the 
building was torn down and then it was put down to Washington 
Street. 

Mr. Halley. Now, what was the name originally, the Union 

Mr. DeLucia. Siciliano. 

Mr. Halley. It then was changed to the Italo-^\jnerican Union? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When was the name changed ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't know how to tell you that. 

Mr. Halley. Was it before you went to jail or after ? 

Mr. DeLucia. My understanding was that because they call it Unio 
Siciliano and nobody else could join but Sicilians, so they figured to 
change the name and get everybody else in. 

Mr. Halley. But you got out at that time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I got in when it was Italo-American Union. I 
was a member up to the date I went to jail. Then I didn't pay any 
more. I just dropped it. 

Mr. Halley. When you joined it, it was called the Italo-American 
Union ? 

Mr. DeLucia. To my best recollection, yes. 

Mr. Halley. When did you join? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't recall. 

Mr. Halley. Approximately how long were you a member before 
you went to jail? 

Mr. DeLucia. I must have been a member 5 or 6 years at least, 

Mr. Halley. And it was previous to your becoming a member that 
they changed the name ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think when I became a member it was Italo-x\meri- 
can Union. 

Mr. Halley. How long before that was the name changed ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is a long time. I don't remember that, Mr. 
Halley. 

Mv. Halley. Would you say sometime in the 1930's ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is a matter of record. You can find out. I 
don't know. 

Mr. Halley. The records are kept at the office on Washington 
Street ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERCE 23 

Mr. H ALLEY. Wlio is the president now ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bulger. 

Mr Halley. How do you spellit ? 

Mv. DeLucia. Joseph I. B-u-1-g-e-r. 

Mr. Halley. Who is the treasurer now ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you get out ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I told you. ^Vlien I went to the penitentiary I ]ust 
didn't pay any more. Some of these days I might go back. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether Joseph Fischetti belonged ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether Rocco Fischetti belonged ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No . 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have a list of the members ? 

Mr. DeLucl\. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see a list of the members ? 

Mr. DeLucl4. No. 

Mr. Halley. Now, when you first joined, who talked to you about 
joining? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think it was Joe that told me to get in, Joe Bulga. 
He became the president, or something like that. I am not so sure, 
but I think that is what it was. 

Mr. Halley. How did you happen to know Bulga ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I knew Bulga for many years. 

Mr. Halley. I think you said that you knew Tony Capiccio for 
many years, too. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco De Grazio ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And of course, you know Louis Campagna ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And of course you know Charles Gioe ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Niccolo Impostato ? 

Mr. DeLucia. From Chicago ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I don't know him. 

Mr. Halley. You are sure you never heard of him ? Of course you 
know Philip D' Andrea ? He went to jail with you on the extortion 
case. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is it your position that you were not guilty in the 
extortion case ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You never tried to extort money from anybody ? 

Mr. DeLucl4. No, sir. 

]Mr. Halley. Do you know Sylvester Agolin ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you laiow Anthony Antonelli ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Who? 

Mr. Halley. Antonelli, Tony Antonelli. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Sam Battaglia? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 



24 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE i 

Mr. Halley, What were the advantages of joining the Unione 
Sicilian©? 

Mr. DeLucia. I told you it was just insurance, you know. 

Mr. Halley. Did they issue a policy, an insurance policy ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. On your family? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you let yours drop ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I didn't pay any more. 

Mr. Halley. How did you happen to know Dragna all the way out 
in California? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I knew some people in California, and that is 
how I met him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Trans- America Wire Service? 

Mr. DeLucia. I heard about it. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have anything to do with it? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. What is the name of the man you had renting your 
farm when you were in jail? 

Mr. DeLucia. Francis Corri. 

Mr. Halley. Did he have anything to do with the Trans- America? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear that he had something to do with it? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chairman. Well, he was one of the founders of the Trans- 
America Wire Service. 

Mr. DeLucia. Was he? 

The Chairman. Was he not one of the founders of it? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

The Chairman. All right. Let me ask just one question: Is this 
Unione Siciliano what is known as the Mafia? Was that called the 
Mafia? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no. 

The Chairman. What is the Mafia ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know much about the Mafia beyond the 
papers. 

The Chairman. Speak out. You have your hand before your 
mouth. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know anything about the Mafia. 

The Chairman. What is the Mafia ? 

Mr. DeLucia. What you read in the papers is all I know. 

The Chairman. Well, is this Unione Siciliano sometimes called 
the Mafia? Do you know that, or not? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no ; they never called that the Mafia. That is a 
society, to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. Was Al Capone a member of the Unione Siciliano ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I don't think so. 

Mr. Robinson. What was Curry's business ? 

Mr. DeLucia. What? 

Mr. EoBiNSON. James Curry ; what business was he in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Curry is a landowner. He had a farm. 

Mr. Robinson. What else do you know about him? What other 
business was he in ? Wasn't he in the gambling business ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 25 

Mr. Robinson. Never to your knowledge was he in the gambling 
business 'i 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. What did he do after lie left your place? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I didn't see him any more. I was 
told not to see him any more. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Who told you that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, my parole man told me. You see, when I came 
out, my lease with him expired in March, the next March, you see. So 
he said to come there and get his stuff, and he was around, and I was 
told that I shouldn't have anything to do Avith him. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't you know that he went into the gambling 
business ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Xo ; I never saw him any more. 

Mr. Robinson. You mentioned a house at ]\Iiami Beach. When 
did you acquire that ? 

Mr. DeLucia I didn't buy a house at Miami Beach I rented it, 
for a year. 

Mr. Robinson. Oh, you rented it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you receive visits in prison from Bernstein ? 

]\Ir. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he appear alone the first time he visited you? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you talk to him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Xo; I didn't talk to him. 

Mr. Robinson. You didn't talk to liim 'i 

My. DeLucia. Xo. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he appear again with Accardo? 

Mr. DeLucia. That was the reason why Accardo came ; one of the 
reasons. 

Mr. Robinson. You didn't talk to Bernstein until Accardo came? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

ISIi;. Robinson. Why was that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Because I didn't know Bernstein, and I wasn't going 
to talk over any tax matter with him unless I found out what was the 
trouble. I didn't know there was any trouble anyway. 

So he came over and said things were kind of upset, and all that. 
He was a good tax lawyer, and I talked to him. 

Mr. Robinson. Had you retained Bernstein ? 

Mv. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How did 3^011 retain Bernstein ? 

Mr. DeLucia. My Mrs. retained Bernstein. 

Mr. Robinson. Who? 

]Mr. DeLucia, My wife. 

Mr. Robinson. And asked Bernstein to go to see you in prison ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

]Mr. Robinson. And you refused to talk to him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Where were you, in prison ? 

Mr. DeLucia. In Leavenworth. 

Senator Wiley. Were you at any other prison before that ? 

68858 — 51— pt. 5- 3 



26 ORGANIZED CRIMB IN INTEESTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, in Atlanta. 

Senator Wiley. How did you get transferred? Who arranged 
for it? 

Mr. DeLucia, I don't know. I was just transferred. 

Senator Wiley. Did you pay anyone for that transfer ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Why did you tell Bernstein you wouldn't talk 
to him? 

Mr. DeLucia. I didn't want to talk to nobody about my tax. I was 
in iail, and I figured I don't care what happens. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you tell him to see Accardo? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no. He naturally went. back. He figured he 
would get somebody and talk to Paul and make me understand the 
seriousness of the affair, and that was all. 

Mr. Robinson. That is the reason Accardo came ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You didn't tell him to bring Accardo down to vouch 
for him? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chairman. What is this story about this fine getting paid, and 
he did not know about it ? 

Mr. Robinson. You did have some income-tax difficulty at one 
time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember the year ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, up until 1939, I think, or something like that. 

Mr. Robinson. And that was in the process of settlement or nego- 
tiation with the Government up until the time you were in prison; 
or out of prison ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, that came out of trial. After the sentence they 
brought that up, you see. And they wanted to get income tax on 
that. 

Mr. Robinson. And you had certain penalties to pay? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember how much ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, that is a matter in the Tax Court. That is all 
settled there. 

Mr. Robinson. How was the payment made? 

The Chairman. How much was it? You know about how much 
it was. How much did you owe ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I think they charged me $300,000, or something 
like that, that I owed them. 

Senator Kefauver. And was a settlement agTeed on ? 

Mr. DeLucia. The settlement was $40,000 or $50,000 or something 
like that. 

Senator Wiley. How much? 

Mr. DeLucia. $40,000 or $50,000. 

Senator Wiley. Who was your lawyer then? Bernstein? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein. 

Senator Wiley. How much did you pay ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, my Mrs. gave me some money. I have some 
money there that I got when I came out. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 27 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever give Bernstein any money to pay that 
settlement ? 

Mr, DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Was it paid ? 

Mr. DeLucia. It was paid all right. I was in jail. How could 
I give it to him ? 

J\Ir. Robinson. Did you ever instruct anyone to pay Bernstein 
so he could make payment in settlement ? 
• Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Well, how M-as it paid ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, somebody, I understand, brought some money 
up to Bernstein and said, "Pay this." 

Mr. Robinson. How much money did they bring to Bernstein? 

Mr. DeLucia. They would bring up $20,000 sometime and $30,000 
sometime. I don't know how much it was. 

Mr. Robinson. How many people brought it to Bernstein? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I suppose a few people. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't you ever discuss it with Bernstein ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I knew, but I don't i-emember now. 

Mr. Robinson. Did Bernstein say who brought the money? 

Mr. DeLucia. He said how many people were there, and all that. 

Mr. Robinson. How many people were there? What did he tell 
you i What did Bernstein tell you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He said a few people went over there and brought 
him the money. So I don't know how many, three, four, or five. I 
don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Did Bernstein tell you who they were? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

^Ir. Robinson. Did you ever find out who they were? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever make any eflfort to find out who they 
were ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Why, I would be glad to find out who did that for 
me. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever suspect who it was? 

:Mr. DeLucia. No, I didn't. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever suspect that Accardo paid the money? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chairman. How much was this? A hundred thousand dol- 
lars? That they left on Bernstein's desk? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. I understand it was about $120,000. 

Senator Hunt. Let me ask a question. This is a tax payment that 
we are speaking about ? 

Mr. Robinson. I think, Senator, it was a compromise settlement, 
if I recall. 

Senator Hunt. That somebody paid in his behalf? 

Mr. R(jBiNSON. Yes. Somebody came to Bernstein's office, or several 
people, and gave the money to Bernstein. 

Senator Hunt. Now, you do not mean to tell us that you do not know 
who contributed that money to pay your tax. You are not telling 
us that, are you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I will tell you why. Senator. I thought I probably 
would find after we came out there wouldn't be so much publicity at- 



28 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

taclied to the parole. But all the publicity did come, and it was better 
to lose the money, to my way of thinking, than to get the publicity in 
the paper and all that. 

Senator Hunt. Now, it was either some of your relatives or some 
of your business associates? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Hunt. Was it some of your business associates that paid 
the money? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Hunt. Now- , Jim Jones who does not know you would not 
kick in with $50,000 to pay your taxes. 

Mr. DeLucia. I suppose a friend did. 

Senator Hunt. You know who it was. Why do you not tell us? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I don't know, Senator. 

Senator Wiley. May I also see if w^e have not got confused here ? 

There was this trial, and there was the fine. 

Mr. DeLucia. The fine was paid. 

Senator Wiley. $110,000. Then there was also your tax settlement. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. And you are saying to this committee that in the 
case of the fine you do not know^ who paid your fine ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I know who paid the fine. The fine was $10,000. It 
was paid in New York. 

Senator Wiley. $110,000? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, $10,000. That is a different story. The fine w^as 
paid in New York. 

Senator Wiley. How much was that? 

Mr. DeLucia. $10,000. But the other stuff is the income tax. 

Senator Wiley. Who paid that? 

Mr. DeLucia. That fine Bulga took care of when we left some money 
with him, you see. He was the lawyer on the trial. 

The Chairman. Who was that that paid at the trial ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bulga. 

The Chairman. That same man who was president of the Italian- 
American League ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. But we gave him the money. 

Mr. Robinson. Was he the man Avhose name was used by Accardo? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. When he visited you in prison? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. Their initials were equal; G. O. B; 
for one and G. O. B. the other one. That is what it w^as. 

Senator Wiley. Was that the one you were talking about, about 
only $10,000 fine and 10 years? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. That was the time you had 10 years, and you had to 
pay the $10,000 fine? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. The tax settlement is different. 
Senator Wiley. When you got mixed up with your tax settlement, 
you paid how much, approximately? 
Mr. DeLucia. I paid $120,000, 1 think. 

Senator Wiley. $120,000. And you do not know who paid that? 
Mr. DeLucia. No, not yet. 
Senator Wiley. What is that? 
Mr. DeLucia. Not so far. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 29 

Senator Hunt. When was that paid? What year? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think in '46. 

Mr. Robinson. You had the money with which to pay it, yourself. 

Mr. Dp:Lucia. No, I won't tell anybody I had the money, to tell you 
the truth. 

Mr. Robinson. Well, did you have the money, and could you have 
paid it yourself ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I could have paid it. 

Senator Hunt. Have 3^011 reimbursed those people who paid vour 
tax ^ 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. Sometime I reimburse. Some day they come 
along, and I reimburse. 

Senator Wiley. Do 3'ou have any connection with any political fac- 
tion in Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Are you sure? Did you know a Jack Arvey? 

Mr. DeLucia. I heard of him. 

Senator Wiley. Did you have anything to do with bringing one 
way or the other the Italian vote? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Wiley, Did you vote? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. How could I vote ? 

Senator Wiley. Never did vote ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Never went to the polls? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know if I went to the polls before. But not 
lately. 

Senator Wiley. That is all. 

Mr. Robinson, Who took care of your interests while you were 
in prison ? 

Mr. DeLucia. You mean at the farm ? Corri, 

Mr. Robinson. And your other interests ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I had no other interests. 

Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true that Accardo took care of your interests 
while you were in prison ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no, 

Mr. RoBixsoN. Isn't it true that you asked him to look out for 
your interests while you were in prison? 

Mr. DeLucia, No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Generally speaking; I don't mean to run the place, 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Why did Accardo come to visit you in prison? 

Mr. DeLucia. He was a friend of mine. He was my neighbor, and 
he came. And it was a friendly act. That is all, 

Mr, Robinson. Didn't he tell you at the time that it was all right 
for you to talk to Bernstein ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, he advised me to talk to Bernstein, or else 
tilings was going to be bad, and they were going to charge me a lot 
of money, and that way the thing could be settled. 

The Chairman, Now, Mr. DeLucia, we do not think you are tell- 
ing the truth. We think vou are connnitting perjury about not 
knowing who paid that $120'000. 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I am telling the truth. 



30 ORGANIZED CRIMEI IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. I know you do not want to get into any more 
trouble. You had better come clean if you know who paid it. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know who paid that money, Senator. Truth- 
fully, I don't know. 

The Chairman. You do not have any idea who paid it? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chairman. Remember ; you are under oath. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. And $120,000 got laid on Mr. Bernstein's de.sk in 
cash. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is what Bernstein said. I was in jail at that 
time. Senator. 

The Chairman. He has not told you who it was that put the 
money there? 

Mr. DeLucia. He says he doesn't know himself. 

The Chairman. He says he does not know himself? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Hunt. How did he laiow what the money was for ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, this money was Paul, and this money was 
Louie, the note said. 

Senator Hunt. Was it typewritten, or handwritten ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I wasn't there. Senator. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Let me ask you this: Did Bernstein talk to you 
before he paid the money ? 

Mr. DeLucia, Oh, Bernstein came there several times. 

Mr. Robinson. Did Bernstein come to you and state that this 
money had been left with him, and ask if he should use it for pay- 
ment of the tax ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, when he came back he said, "The money is all 
paid. The bill is all settled." 

Mr. Robinson. But he never asked you whether it was all right 
with you to use that money to pay the tax ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, because the way it happened, he got the money 
today, and tomorrow he would pay. He wasn't going to keep the 
money around him. 

Senator Wiley. Did you ask Bernstein who put up the money? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, he said he didn't know. 

Senator Wiley. Have you any idea who would advance that 
amount of money ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. Did you have friends ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes. 

Senator Wiley. Let us get at that. Who are your friends that can 
put up $120,000 and never even tell you that they have done so ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I will do the same thing for somebody in jail tomor- 
row, if it is my friend, Senator. 

Senator Wiley. You would ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. But the question is, Wlio are your friends that 
would do that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, any friend that I think deserved it, I would 
do it for. I would even sell my house. 

Senator Wiley. What influential friends did you have at that time 
or have you got that would raise $120,000 and plunk it down without 



ORG.\NIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31 

askin<r an accounting from you or an lOU? Did you give anyone a 
note for it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Wiley. Did you not think that was a queer circumstance, 
that some one should put down $120,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I know, Senator. But that is how it happened. ^ 

Senator Wiley. Did you have any connection with any organization 
that you had a hold on ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Senator Wiley. You mean to say that out of the clear sky this hap- 
pened and no one owed you an obligation or no one was fearful of you, 
that would come in and plunk down $120,000? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is how it happened, Senator. 

Senator Wiley. After you found out, did you not snoop around and 
try to find out ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I am still trying now. 

Senator Wiley. You are still trying? 

]Mr. DdLucia. Yes. . ^i . c 

Senator Wiley. Do you know any of the big shots m Chicago i 

Mv. DeLucia. I don't know what you mean by big shots. 

Senator Wiley. Any of the influential politicians, one way or an- 
other, on either side ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't mix with politics. 

Senator Wiley. What is that? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't mix with politics. 

Senator Wiley. Well, when you were talking a little while ago 
about the national bank, did you mean the Forest Park National Bank ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. That was when I started. Then I changed it 
to the Northland Trust. 

Mr. Robinson. Who was Mr. Felicio ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He is my neighbor. 

Mr. Robinson. What business is he in? 

Mr. DeLucia. He has liquor stores. 

Mr. Robinson. Do jou have any interest in those stores? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr Robinson. How large a home does he have ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, he has a home about as big as mine, or something 

similar to mine. x^i i _9 

Mr. Robinson. Has he been involved m violations ot the law « 
Mr. DeLucia. Not that I know of. 
Mr. Robinson. Who have some of your associates been since you 

got out on parole ? ^ n e • i. 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, since I got out on parole, all of my associates 
have been my relations. My wife has four or five brothers. And I 
have been at the farm. That is about all. 

Mr. Robinson. Did Accardo visit you at the farm? 

Mr. DeLucia. Wlio ? 

Mr. Robinson. Accardo. 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you talk to him on the phone? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. , . • -u 

Mr. Robinson. You have never seen or talked to him since you have 
been on parole? 



32 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DeLucia. Let me explain that about "on the phone." My boy 
and his boy ^o to the same schooL Maybe you have some call from my 
liouse to his house. That is the boys' calling. I have nothing to do 
with it. And I can stop the boy. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Have you ever talked to Accardo on the phone at any 
time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. I saw him at the trial. That is all. 
Mr. Robinson. I mean since you have been out on parole. 
Mr. DeLucia. No, no. 

Mr. Robinson. All right. Who else have you seen? 
Mr. DeLucia. That is all. 

Mr. Robinson. Who has been out to your house in the last few 
days ? 

^Ir. DeLucia. Well, nobody has been out to my house. I have been 
at the farm. 

Mr. Robinson. You have had no visits from anj^one in the last few 
days ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. I was at the farm. No one outside the f ajiiilies. 
Mr. Robinson. At the farm? 
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Who has been there to see you in the last few days? 
Mr. DeLucia. Nobody that amounts to anything. My brother-in- 
law and some friends, lady friends; that is all. 
Senator Wiley. Lady friends, you say? 
Mr. DeLucia. I mean lady friends of my wife. 
Mr. Halley. I have been looking at your income tax returns, Mr. 
DeLucia. I gather that in 19J:9 you lost money on your farm. Is 
that right ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Why. sure. I lost money every year. 
Mr. Halley. And the farm is the only business you have ? 
Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 
Mr. Halle. Is that correct ? 
Mr, DeLucia, Yes, 

Mr. Halle. Have you put up that farm for sale ? 
Mr. DeLucia. No. I don't want to i)ut up that farm for sale 
unless I have to. You see, I inquired around, but the farm is too big 
to sell. It would be five or six hundred thousand dollars. I will tell 
you this much. If next year — with all this improvement, now, I think 
I should start to make money now, you see. But if I don't, I will 
split the farm up and try to sell it. 

Mr. Halley, The fact is that up to this time you have had no income 
from the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I have s})ent money on improvements, you see. 
Mr. Halley. You have spent more than you have made? 
Mr. DeLucia. I built a barn there, and all that, 
Mr. Halley. And you still have a large house in River Forest : is 
that right? ' 

Ml'. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Haixey. What did you pay for that house ? 
Mr. DeLucia. $25,000. 

Mr. Halley. What would vou say its value is today ? 
Mr. DeLucia. Oh, about $100,000. 

Mr. Halley. And you have another country place; is that rioht? 
Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; in Lone: Beach. * 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 33 

Mr. Halley. And what would you say your annual living expenses 
are. with all these expensive homes you maintain? 

]\Ir. DfXucia. About a couple of thousand dollars a month. 

IVIr. Halley. About a couple of thousand dollars a month. You are 
not beginning to worry about the fact that your assets are going down, 
are yon ? 

Mr. DeLucl\. I am. I tried to sell my house on Long Beach, and I 
couldn't sell it, and I think next year, if I can't make it up, I will 
sell my farm. 

Mr. Halley. But you haven't begun economizing at all, have you? 

Mr. DeLucia. I will. I will start to do the best I can from now on, 
on that. I won't have to economize any more, because there won't be 
much expense at the farm. I have those bulldozers, and I can made 30 
or 40 thousands dollars a year at the farm. 

Mr. Halley. You made $42,000 last year, didn't you ? 

]Mr. DeLucia. Yes. And everything is built now. 

Mr. Haixey. You can't take off what you built on your depreciation. 
You were spending capital, weren't you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Now you capital is down to about $40,000 in cash? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mv. Halley. And you say you have about $11,000 in stock? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And how much in the bank ? 

Air. DeLucia. Oh, about a thousand dollars in the bank. 

Mr. Halley. A thousand dollars in the bank? 

Mr. DeLucia. Or something like that. 

Mr. Halley. What is troubling me is that you are not acting like 
a man who is down to your last $50,000. I notice by your books that 
you bought a Cadillac last month. 

Mr. DeLucia. If you see the book, you will notice I sold my other 
Cadillac. 

Mr. Halley. And you paid something over $4,000 for a new one? 

Mr. DeLucia. You see, a car lasts me about 3 years, 3 or 4 years. 

]VIr. Halley. Who drives your car? 

IVIr, DeLucia. Myself. 

Mr. Halley. How many people do you have on j^our payroll at the 
farm? 

Mr. DeLucia. Over there you have them all. 

Mr. Halley. What is your recollection ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, in the wintertime you can get along with three 
or four. In the summertime, during the hay season and during the 
summer generally, five or six, just for a few days or for a few weeks. 

Senator Wiley. I might say for the record, here, that his 1950 state- 
ment shows assets of $390,000, and he has here notes payable of $625, 
mortgage payable of $10,000, loan payable, mortgage. Long Beach 
property, $40,000, and mortgage payable, Prudential Insurance Co. of 
America, $84,000. That seems to be all that you owe, there, I take it. 
And it is interesting to note that he lists his land at $18,000. He built 
a new barn for $81,000. 

AVhat year did you build that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. i948, 1 think. 



34 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. You built an $81,000 barn in 1948. Was that the 
time you took the mortgage in the Prudential Co. ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; that was when I bought that 

Senator Wiley. When you got tractors, wagons, implements, ma- 
chinery, for $44,000 ? ' to 5 r , O' 

Mr. DeLucia. You see, that is a big farm, Senator. It takes a lot 
of equipment, and all that. 

Mr, Robinson. Did you know John Rosselli ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I would say about 15 or 16 years. 

Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ? 

Mr. DeLucl^. I don't know what business he is in. 

Mr. Robinson. You have never found out what business he is in? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. And you never knew what business he was in? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. R0BIN8ON. What was your association with him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I knew Johnny in Chicago a couple of times, and 
that was all. I knew he was in California, and that was all 

Mr. Robinson. When did you first meet Nitti ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember, Senator. It was in the twenties 

Mr. Robinson. Weren't you working as a waiter at the time? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; I never worked as a waiter. If you want to 
Vr^ ^^ ^°^' waiter, that is all right. I was manager at that time. 

Mr. Robinson. You were manager of the restaurant? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. And it was at that time that you met Nitti « 

Mr. DeLucia. No; I think I met Nitti when'l had a restaurant of 
my own. 

Mr. Robinson. Well, anyway, did Nitti get a job for you at the 
Lexington Hotel? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any job at the Lexington Hotel? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever live at the Lexington Hotel ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was there. 

Mr. Robinson. Who else lived at the Lexington Hotel ? 

Mr. DeLucia. A1 was living there ? 

Mr. Robinson. Was Nitti living there? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I think he had a home. 

Mr. Robinson. You can't remember anyone else except Al Capone 
who lived at the Lexington Hotel ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you visit frequently with Nitti and Al Capone I 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you work for them in any way? Did you do 
any jobs for them? 

Mr. DeLucia. I never worked for them. 

Mr. Robinson. You knew what business they were in? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I know the business. My idea of business with 
them was to try to make some money. That is all. 

Mr. Robinson. Tell me how? 

Mr. DeLucia. Their business was theirs, and not mine. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEA IN INTERSTATE COMMENCE 35 

Mr. KoBiNSON. Go ahead and describe how you made the money. 
Mr. DeLucia. By gambling. ^ -...-,.■, v u • a 

Mr. RoBiNSOX. And you had nothing to do with the liquor business i 

Mr. DeLucia. No. x xv 4. 

Mr. KoBiNSON. Weren't they in the illegal liquor business at that 

time? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I suppose ; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You know that, don't you? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; I don't know anything about that, ihey didn t 
go ahead and tell me what they were doing. 

Mr. Robinson. They never mentioned anything to you about what 

they were doing? , -, ^ , xv 

Mr. DeLucia. No. Senator. I never asked for those things. 

Mr. Robinson. But you were frequently associated with them ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. . 

Mr. Robinson. Thev never talked about their business to you? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sn- ; not that kind of business. 

Mr. Robinson. Well, what kind of business did they talk about? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, the gambling, you see; the horses and all that 
stuff : baseball and all that. 

Mr. Robinson. You never got a cut of the liquor business? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. None whatsoever? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. What was your income from 1940 to 1943 i Can you 

recall? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, very small. You mean, 1940 to 1943? 

Mr. Robinson. That is right. 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh. I thought you meant 1943 to 1947. I would say 
about $300,000. 

Mr. Robinson. That was your net income ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

:Mr. Robinson. What was your net income ? Can you recall approx- 
imately what your net income was, from 1940 to 1943, annually? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't recall that. It is all a matter of fact. You 
can see it. 

Mr. Halley. Was it over $50,000 a year? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't recall that, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. HALLET.,Well, you would know whether it was more than 
$50,000 or less than $50,000 a year. In what range was it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't be able to tell. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you can tell. Were you a $10,000-a-y6ar man, 
or a $50,000-a-year man. or a $100,000-a-year man? 

]Mr. DeLucia. No. I had a lot of expenses in those years, too. 

The Chairman. What expenses ? 

Mr. Halley. How did you have expense ? Wliat expense did you 
have? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, expense all around, I suppose, I don't remember. 
If I had those papers, I could tell. 

Mr. Halley. You mean you lived well. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. But that is part of your income. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 



36 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Would you say you spent over $50,000 a year ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, sure, I did. 

Mr. Hallet. Then you must have earned over $50,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, sure. 

The Chairman. He said he earned $300,000 those 3 years. 

Mr. DeLucia. Around that, or maybe TO. That is the best of my 
recollection. I don't know for sure. 

Senator Wiley. What years was it that you paid the tax penalty 
for ? What years were those ? 

Mr. DeLucia. '46. 

Senator Wiley. Just 1 year ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, you mean what year that was? No: that was 
back in '39. 

Senator Wiley. 1939 to what ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, '34 to '39. I don't recall it. 

Senator Wiley. Let's get that. So, when the $120,000 was paid, 
that paid the tax penalties accumulated 

Mr. DeLucia. The $100,000 was between me and Campagna. 

Senator Wiley. Was that what it was ? 

Mr. DeLucia. BetAveen me and Campagna. That was the settle- 
ment for both of us. 

The Chairman. You say that also settled Louie Campagna's tax 
case ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. What I was more interested in was this fact. You 
settled your taxes up then to '39 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. To '43. 

Senator Wiley. Well, let's get it. From '39 to '43 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Up to '43 everything is settled. 

Senator Wiley. You are sure of that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Senator Wiley. That is what that $120,000 is for? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right, for me and Campagna. 

Senator Wiley. All right. Now, when you came out of prison on 
your parole, how much cash did you have? 

Mr. DeLucia. $300,000. 

Senator Wiley. You had $300,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Senator Wiley. And you had that in your home? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. ' 

Senator Wiley. Have you a statement any ijlace showing what your 
assets were then ? ^ i & j 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Senator Wiley. Why not? 

Mr. DeLucia. A^lio would I have to show it to? Nobody asked 
me for it. 

Senator Wiley. No; I am asking you. This doesn't show. If this 
particular book would show your assets from yeai- to year, if we started 
at the time you came out in '43, it should show, if what you say is true, 
as you liave set it up here, what constitutes your estate. 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, you know now. 

Senator Wiley. I know now, sure. 

JNIr. DeLucia. I don't think anybody is going to tell anybody how 
much money he has got, Senator. ^ 



I ^' ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COJVIMERCE 37 

Senator Wiley. Have you any statement to show what became of 
that $300,000 > 

Mr. DeLucia. That is there. 

Senator Wiley. Can you break it down for lis? n i ^ 

Mr. DeLucia. There it is. It is all broke down. 1 ou can tell what 
I have got. I use some of the money in there. 

Senator Wiley. Then if we start in whh cash on hand m 194 <, you 
have i<^:300.000, plus vour earninos from the farm, plus your earnings 
from ihe bank stock. That constitutes your total income i 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. xVll right. Now, you say it costs you $2,000 a 
month to live, for your family at least. „ . . i .. ^i . 

Mr. DeLucia. Approximately that. Over all it is less than that. 
But I would put it at $2,000. , ti 

Senator Wiley. All right. Now. then, what other disbursements 
have you made out of that $300,000 for capital investment since 194 < i 

Mr'. DeLucia. Nothing else. 

Senator Wiley. No, no. You do not get me. As I understood you 
to say, vou built that big barn back there before 194:7 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. In '48. How could I build it before '4< ? I came 

out in '4T. o -, ^ • 1 i- -c ^1 

Senator Wiley. Then the cost of the barn was paid out ol the 

$300,000^ 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. ,. t, . tt 

Senator Wiley. All right. What other big disbursement did you 
make out of that $300,000 ? . ^ „ i . -d . 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I bought the machinery rig, and all that. But 
I pay that in a year on a monthly loan. i . . 

Senator Wiley. Did you make any substantial loan from anybody i 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes. 

Senator Wiley. Who ? ^ i <• i 

Mr. DeLucia. I have a mortgage on the farm, on the farm and 
on the house. 

Senator Wiley. You borrowed that money, then, too i 

Mr. DeLucia. I borrowed it, yes. 

Senator Wiley. Well, if you had the $300,000, why did you bor- 
row that money? 

Mr. DeLucia. Because, Senator, I have a long time to go. 1 have 
3 more years to go on parole. And at the rate I am going, I have 
to come'out some time and borrow money. So I might as well pre- 

T)are myself. . i • tj- u 

• Senator Wiley. What I am trying to find out is this. It you bor- 
rowed that money, it could easily be ascertained when that was insti- 
tuted. That $84,000 is one. That is the large one. And $40,000 
is the other. If you borrowed that since 1947, you came out m '47 
with $300,000 in cash. Just why would anybody want to borrow 
all this money, if you had the money on hand ? 

:Mr. DeLucia. "^Because I have 6 years to go, Senator, and at the 
rate I am going, I am not going to make it. And I can see now that 
next year I may have to sell the farm. 

Senator Wiley. Well, you were telling us that you made $40,000 
a year otf of the farm, and that you used some of that money. 
■^IVIr. DeLucia. Well, this year looks bad. The corn looks bad. 



38 ORGANIZED CRIMEl EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Senator Wiley. I agree with the chairman that some of your testi- 
mony does not make sense. I do not want to prejudge anybody. 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I tell you the truth the best I know how, 
Senator. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know James Missio ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Wlio? 

Mr. Robinson. Missio, Missio — M-i-s-s-i-o. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Steve Cif oni ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Who is he ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, he died about 10 years ago. 

Mr. Robinson. About how long did you know him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He was my neighbor. He had a house next to me at 
Long Beach. 

Mr. Robinson. And was he an associate of Al Capone ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. He knew him. 

Senator Wiley. How long has Bernstein kept your books for you ? 
How many years ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, since he took over, I suppose around '45 or '46. 

Senator Wiley. All right. In '48, he started to set up each year a 
balance sheet, I take it, just like this has been set up ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Senator Wiley. And you claim that you have not got those '45, '46, 
'47, '48 

Mr. DeLucia. There isn't much in '49. 

Senator Wiley. Now, just a minute. You have not got those bal- 
ance sheets any place? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. You know, Senator, I don't even know if I 
destroyed it all. I went to look all over, yesterday, to see if I could 
find it, and I couldn't find it any place. 

Senator Wiley. Well, I think you have another tax case here to be 
looked into, very definitely. I do not think you want your com- 
promises around- 

If they owe a lot of money they can get rid of it. What did they 
claim, that you and the other chap owed $350,000 ? How much did 
you settle your judgment for ? 

Mr. DeLucia. About $50,000. 

Senator Wiley. How much was the judgment? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think the judgment was aromid $280,000, or some- 
thing like that. 

Senator Wiley. Well, there you have got it. 

Mr. Robinson. How long did you say you knew Cifoni ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I knew Cifoni for quite a while. 

Mr. Robinson. And what did he do in Cicero ? What was his work 
in Cicero ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know what he was doing in Cicero. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't he have charge of the alcohol cookers in 
Cicero for Capone ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Not to my knowledge. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 39 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever hear of it? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever hear rumors about it? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he work for you after repeal ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. He never worked for me before. 

Mr. Robinson. He never worked for you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Was he associated with the elevators union? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know anything about that. 

Mr, Robinson. You don't know whether he was ever associated 
with them ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. What happened to him? 

Mr. DeLucia. He got killed. 

Mr. Robinson. How? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Aiuppa ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think I do, but not to any extent. 

Mr. Robinson. What does he do? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I just know him by sight. 

Mr. Robinson. Is he a friend of Campagna's ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr, Robinson, Wasn't he put into the bartenders' union by you and 
Campagna ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Claude Maddox? 

Mr. DeLucia. I might have seen him some place, but I never had 
anything to do with him. 

Mr. Robinson. You know him? 

Mr, DeLucia. I know him. 

Mr, Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr, DeLucia. Oh, I don't know. It might have been some time, but 
I never had anything to do with him. I know a lot of people, and I 
am not denying it. So I am just telling you the best I kiiow how. 
That doesn't mean that I ever did anything with them. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you talked to Campagna and Gioe about your 
appearance here ? 

Mr, DeLucia. No. We met when we was in court. What was it? 
The 5th. We met in court, and then we were told about your sub- 
pena, and all that, and he went back, and we were told to come over 
here. And last night I got in a plane, and I met Louie at the station. 
He was getting off another plane. We met this morning. We went 
to the parole officer. We went up there. He worked there, and I got 
there first, and he got there. He saw Mr. Ower, and from there I came 
here by myself, and we met over here. 

IMr. Robinson. You met at the plane last night ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, at the station, where we were getting the bag- 
gage. I took one plane, and he took another plane. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you ever in partnership with Russell? 

Mr. DeLucia, No. 

Mr. Robinson. You were never in partnership with Russell at any 
time or place in Chicago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. No. 



40 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know James Raoen { Did you know James 
Ragen ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't think — I think I saw him once in Florida. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you meet him in Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. I don't know ; maybe I did. But I don't recall 
any instance. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know what business he was in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes; he was in the wire affair. 

Mr. Robinson. The wire service business ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you know Patrick Burns? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

]Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know anyone by the name of McBride? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. " 

Mr. Robinson. In Cleveland? You never have met him? 

Mr. DeLucia. I might have met him, but I don't recall it. 

Mr. Ror.iNsoN. Do you know any other people connected with the 
w^ire service ? 

Wv. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Levin, Hymie Levin, or Levine? 

Mr. DeLucia. Hymie Levine, yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether he was connected with the 
wire service ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. What business was he in? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, Hymie Levine was in the gambling business, too. 

Mr. Robinson. What type of gambling business w^as he in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He had a booth or something. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Wasn't he also in the wire service business? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know that. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever hear of the R. & H. Publishing Co.? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Roy Jones? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know^ George Kelly ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know any of the Kellys in the wire service 
business ? 

]Mr. DeLucia. I know Tom Kelly, the restaurant man. I don't 
know whether he is mixed up with that or not. That is all I know. 

Mr. Robinson. During the time from '40 to 'iS, you were in the 
gambling business; is that right? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What type of books did you keep ? 

Mr. DeLucia, Well, my books was like — at the end of the year what 
I find over, that is what I have. 

Mr. Robinson. Wasn't everything handled on a cash basis? 

Mr. DeLucia. A cash basis, yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You kept no records at all? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. No records. 

Mr. Robinson. And didn't you also handle all your other business 
on a cash basis ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 41 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

]\Ir. Robinson. You never used a banking account or used checks 
iitall? 
^ Mr. DeLucia. No. I put money in the bank, 

Mr. Robinson. You never paid any bills by check? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever handle any bets from people outside 
of Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. Xo. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever lay off any bets with anyone -outside 
of Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

^Ir. Robinson. Have you ever heard yourself described as being 
a member of the Capone syndicate i 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How did that come about? 

]\Ir. DeLucia. The newspapers. 

Mr. RoBiNSt)N. Were you ever a member of that group ? 

Mr. Dp:Lucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true that you were intimately associated 
vcith Nitti and Capone? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; I was friendly, but not intimately associated. 

Mr. Rt)BiNSON. Just what was the extent of your being friendly 
with him ? Was it purely social ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. Well, I told you. Al used to bet with me. 
Like he was in the box at the race track, and he would say, "I will 
bet you so much on this and that." If I wanted to, I would; and, 
if not, I wouldn't take it. 

Mr. Robinson. That was your only association with Capone? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You had no interest in the liquor business or any 
other business that Capone had or Nitti had? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Who is Hugo Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He is a bookkeeper for the Sportsman's track. 

Mr. Halley. And did you have any financial transactions with 
him ^ 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; he made me a mortgage for $40,000. 

]Mr. Halley. On what? 

Mr. DeLl'cia. On my house at Long Beach. And recently he gave 
me a mortgage foi- $40,000 on my farm. 

Mr. Halley. How much do you owe Hugo Bennett now? 

Mr. DeLucia. $80,000. 

Mr. Halley. $80,000? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is that the money at Sportsman's Park, or his own 
personal money? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is his own money. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Hugo Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. I knew him for a long time. I knew his father. I 
knew him when he was going to school. 

Mr. Halley. You knew him and John Patton together, I suppose? 

68958— 51— pt. 5 4 



42 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I didn't know him and John, I know they are 
friends. 

Mr. Hallet. Do you ever go out to Sportsman's Park ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. I could go, but I never did, 

Mr. Hallet. Have you ever gone? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I never did. 

Mr. Hallet. When did you meet Bennett to talk about the mort- 
gage? 

Mr. DeLucia. I called him, over at the house. 

Mr. Hallet. How did you know that Bennett would have $80,000 ? 

Mr. DeLuclv. I asked him if I could borrow some money, and he 
said "Yes." 

Mr. Hallet. Why did you pick Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, because I know he is well off. I can't go. you 
know, to everj^body for money. I can't go to the bank and borrow 
money. 

Mr. Hallet. Bennett works for Bill Johnston ; doesn't he ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Hallet. Well, Johnston is the head of Sportsman's Park; 
isn't he? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, But he is in Florida, too, Bennett is. He lives 
in Florida. 

Mr. Hali^t. And so is Johnston. They are together in the dog 
tracks, too. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Hallet. Did you ever have an interest in any of the dog 
tracks ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Hallet. Did you ever own any stock in any dog track? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Hallet. Or in any race track ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Hallet. What other financial dealings did you ever have with 
Hugo Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is all. 

Mr. Hallet. None jirior to that ? Well, why did you pick Bennett, 
aside from anyone else, to borrow $80,000 from ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I just asked him. I said, "How can I get this ?" 
And he said, "I will do it for you." 

Mr. Hallet. Why did you ask Bennett? Why didn't you go to a 
bank? Your property had value. You could have got a mortgage 
from a bank. 

Mr. DeLucia. I couldn't have gotten any money from a bank. 
There is a law that once you have a first mortgage you can't get another 
mortgage. I went through all tliat. I tried. 

Mr. Hallet, Did you give Bennett second mortgages ? 

Mr, DeLucia, Yes, 

Mr, Hallet. And he holds them today ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He has a first mortgage on the house at Long 
Beach, though. The house at Long Beach was clear. 

Mr. Hallet. How^ much was that mortgage ? 

Mr. DeLucia. $40,000. 

Mr. Hallet. And another $40,000 on the farm? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMEECE 43 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever bank i*olled any gambling house? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever lend anybody any money for the bank 
rolling of a gambling house ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any interest in any gambling house? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any interest in a crap game? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Or in a dice game ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. At no time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. At no time. 

Mr. Halley. What interest do you pay Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I don't know what it is, 4 percent or 6 percent. 
I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you pay any of the principal back? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; I have an understand that in 5 years I pay 
interest. 

Mr. Halley. You mean right now you pay nothing? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. No interest and no principal ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. That is a nice mortgage; isn't it? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, he is a friend of mine. I can't go to the bank. 
It is a friendly transaction. 

Mr. Hali^y. You still have not explained how you became a friend 
of Hugo Bennett's. 

Mr. DeLucia. I told you, I know his fatlier. I know his whole 
family. I know his brother. 

Mr. Halley. How did you get to know his family ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I know his brother. Patsy is dead now. We 
were kind of friendly. He was coming over to the house all the 
time. That is how I got to know the family. 

Mr. Halley. They were part of the Capone mob; weren't they? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; they weren't. 

Mr. Halley. They were friendly with Capone; weren't they? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. They didn't know Capone? 

Mr. DeLucia. I suppose they did ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Let's stop the nonsense. They knew Capone; didn't 
they? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; because this boy came up at the time Capone 
was in jail. 

Mr. Halley. We are talking about his father, that you knew. 

Mr. DeLucia. His father is a painter. 

Mr. Halley. A painter ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. There is nothing wrong about that. I bought 
a painting from him that he made at the house. 

Mr. Halley. And how did you get to know his father? 

Mr. DeLucia. Because I knew him a long time, and I knew his 
brother Patsy very well. 

Mr. Halley. How did you get to know them? 



44 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DeLucia. How do you aet to know people ? It is just a friendly 
affair, people that you know for a Ion*;' time. 

Mr. Halley. You knew them from their associations with Capone 
and Fischetti? 

Mr. DeLicia. There is no association there at all. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't there such an association with Huoo Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. There is no such association with Capone, because 
I think Al Capone was already in jail when he got the job. 

Mr. Halley. You know very well when Al Capone went to jail it 
was understood all over Chicago that certain people carried on for 
Capone. 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. And one of those people is Jake Guzik; is that right? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You heard that; didn't you? 

Mr. DeLucia. I hear a lot of things. 

Mr. Halley. Well, didn't you hear that? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You never heard that Jake Guzik carried on? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You never heard that Fischetti carried on? 

Mr. DeLucia. They assumed that a lot of people carried on. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear it said that j^ou carried on? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You have been done a great injustice, according to 
yourself. You were wrongfully convicted of extortion in the movie 
case ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And is it your contention also that when you met 
Gioe in the bartenders' case 

Mr. DeLucia. I never met him. And, when he came up in court to 
identify, he didn't identify. 

Mr. Halley. Who was the man who tried to identify you? 

Mr. DeLucia. Whoever it was, that man 

Mr. Halley. McLane ? 

Mr. DeLucia, McLane, yes. 

Mr. Halley. And did somebody intimidate.him before the case came 
to court ? Maybe somebody spoke to him and told him what would 
happen to him. 

Mr. DeLucia. All I can tell you is that I never met the man in my 
life. He just picked my name out of the paper and said I was in the 
restaurant there. I never met him in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Well, were you ever there ? 

Mr. DeLucia. In the restaurant? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, sure, I was in the restaurant. But I never met the 
man in my life, never had anything to do with him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Louis Romano? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; I met him. 

Mr. Halley. He was the president of the union ; wasn't he ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is what he was supposed to be. I don't know. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 45 

Mv. Halley. Did you ever meet Frank Xitti ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Sure. 

Mr. Halley. And you knew Murray Humphreys? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you knew Lou Campagna ? 

Mr. DeLltcia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you knew Frank Abbott? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. But you knew all the others ? 

Mr. DeLl CIA. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you say it was a great injustice to accuse you of 
trying to take over that union ? 

Mr. DeLucia. You darn right. Because that man never met me. 
They never saw me. They just put my name in there. 

The Chairman. Well, were you a member of the union ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with the union? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. No, Senator. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have anything to do with the Retail 
Clerks Union ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Retail Clerks International 
Protective Association, Local l^-iS ^ 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no, no, no. 

Mr. Halley. You have heard of it ; haven't you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I don't know anything about that stuff. 

Mr. Halley. Well, just before you went to jail, didn't the news- 
papers claim you were trying to clean out that union, too? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; no such thing. 

Mr. Halley. Do you ^cnow Max Caldwell ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I might have met him. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Well, let's get it down right, now. Either you know 
him or you don't. Max, Pollock? He is also known as Max Pollock, 

Mr. DeLucia. I know a lot of people, so it wouldn't be nothing 
missing if I tell you I don't know the fellow and I might have met him' 
by some coincidence. And then you could prove me to perjury. 

Mr. Halley. We are not going to keep this up all day. You are 
here under subpena. I want to tell you that for a man who is here 
under oath your answers are completely unsatisfactory. You haven't 
given us any more reason to believe your ex]:)lanatioii of why you 
should get an $80,000 loan from Hugo Bennett than you have as to 
how you know Max Caldwell. You will have to give more definite 
answers. 

Mr. DeLucia. I can't give you a more definite answer than that. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know ]Max Caldwell ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I will say "No" ; but that doesn't mean I might not 
have met him someplace. Why should I be held to a thing like that? 
I might have met him or seen him, and that is all. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Max Pollock? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no. 

Mr. Halley. That is another name for Max Caldwell. 

Mr. DeLucia. There you are. You see ? 

Mr. Halley. But you might have met Mux Caldwell ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I might. If I know, I will tell you. 



46 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Halley. And vou think you may or may not have known Pol- 
lock? 

Mr. DeLucia, Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever try to get money from the lietail Clerks 
Union? 

Mr. DeLtjcia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever get any? 

Mr. DeLucl4. No, no. 

Mr. Halley. You weren't a member of it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Louis Greenberg? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How well do you know him? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I wouldn't say I know him well. I know 
Greenberg by 

Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ? 

Mr, DeLucia. He has an insurance company. He has a brewery. 
He is a real-estate man, and all that. 

Mr. Robinson, And he has an interest in the Seneca Hotel? 

Mr. DeLucia. He might, 

Mr, Robinson, What brewery company ? 

Mr, DeLucia, The Manhattan. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Canadian Ace? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. They changed the name. When I 
knew it, it was Manette, 

Mr, Robinson, Didn't he take that over from Capone? 

Mr, DeLucia, I don't know, 

Mr, Robinson, You don't know that? 

Mr, DeLucia. I don't think he took that over from Capone. Ca- 
pone went to jail before prohibition ; wasn't it? 

Mr. Robinson. Who had the Manhattan Brewery Co. ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't Al Capone own the Manhattan Brewery Co. ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't think so, I never heard of it, 

Mr, Robinson. Which one of these houses that you have has a wall 
around it? 

Mr. DeLucia, None. 

Mr, Robinson, You don't have any that has a wall around it? 

Mr, DeLucia, No, My houses are all open, 

Mr, Robinson. Do you hire anyone as a guard ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, a caretaker. 

Mr. Robinson. "Wliat is his name ? 

Mr. DeLucia, Jim Samarino, 

Mr. Robinson. What is his backgi^ound ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He is a worker. He has been working for me for 20 
years, for at least 15 years. 

Mr. Robinson. Does he have a criminal record ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't think so. No ; he hasn't. 

Mr. Robinson. He hasn't ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, 

Mr, Robinson. You never inquired to find out ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. but I know he hasn't, because he is a worker. 

Mr. Robinson. Is he also a bodyguard ? 



ORGANIZED CRlMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 47 

Mr. DeLucia. Ko ; he isn't a bodyguard. He is a working man who 
takes care of the grounds, and all that. 

Mr. EoBixsoN. Do you have a bodyguard ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

INIr. EoBiNSON. Who else is a guard out there ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Nobody. 

Mr. Robinson. He is the only one ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He is still out there. 

The Chairman. Let me ask what Mr. DeLucia's record has been. 

How manj^ times have you been arrested, Mr. DeLucia ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I have been arrested several times, Senator. 

The Chairman. Well, let us name the times. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is hard for me to say. You have them in the 
record there. 

The Chairman. What have you been arrested for ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Just pickup. 

The Chairman. Gambling? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; no gambling. 

The Chairman. And you were arrested and tried on this extortion 
case? 

Mr. DeLucla.. That is right. 

The Chairman. What other times have you ever been in jail? Any 
other times ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chairman. Those were the only ones ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. Never had an income-tax case send you to jail? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is the only case. 

The Chairman. You had a suit here against somebody about an 
elevator, when an elevator fell ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; I fell down and broke my hip. 

The Chairman. You were with the two Fischetti boys when the 
elevator fell ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where was that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That was in an antique shop. I went to look at a 
painting, and we fell down in the elevator. 

The Chairman. Just the three of you in the elevator? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think it was four or five of us. I don't know. It 
was me, Charlie Fischetti, a fellow by the name of Bobby Carnahan, 
the elevator boy, and I don't know who else, maybe one 

The Chairman. One of the two Fischetti boys ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, Joe Fischetti maybe. 

The Chairman. What were you and the Fischettis doing together 
on that occasion ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I went there to look at a painting. They told me 
they had a painting there. 

The Chairman. They had a painting? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. It was an antique shop. 

The Chairman. Who called you ? One of the Fischettis ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I passed by there. I went by there all the time. 
They told me there was a painting, and I went to look at it, and on 
the way down the elevator fell. 



48 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman, When you did all this gambling, did you have an 
office ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chairman. Did you just see Al Capone and others around the 
hotel ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

The Chairman. All of it at the hotel ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. The Lexington Hotel. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

The Chairman. When you went out to the race track, would you 
take their bets out there? 

Mr. DeLucia. I went out to bet, myself, at the windows, and all 
that. 

The Chairman. I know, but would you take bets from people at 
the race track? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. And also at the hotel. How did they all want to 
bet with you? Did 10 or 12 peo})le bet with you a day? 

Mr, DeLucia. Oh, no. It all depends. 

The Chairman. And you would make $100,000 a year out of betting 
with people? 

INIr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. Anything else ? 

Mr. Robinson, Did you also bet in the bookie places ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I did ; yes. It was a commission house, you know. 

Mr, Halley. You mean Harry RusselFs? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. RoniNsoN. Was that where you did most of your betting? 

:Mr. DeLucia. Part of it. 

Mr. Robinson. Where was the rest ? 

Mr. DeLucia. The rest of it was at the track. 

Mr. Robinson. Any other books ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Some other books. 

]\Ir. Robinson. What other ones? 

Mr. DeLucia. I tell you, you are going to laugh at me, because you 
are going to say "The man is sick." Levine had a book, and I used 
to bet over there ; but he is sick now. 

Mr. Robinson. I know that. How often would you bet at Levine's? 

Mr. DeLucia. Quite often. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the name of his place? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. He had a few places. He would move 
here and there, and all that. 

Mr. Robinson. What other places? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I don't know what places. 

Mr. Robinson. Can't you name some more? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, It was them days, you know. Then I went to 
jail, you see. And that is all. I don't know now who has anything. 

Mr. Robinson. Most of your betting was done at Levine's and 
Russell's that wasn't done at the track? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, 

Mr. Robinson. Are you interested in paintings? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well^ 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 49 

Mr. Robinson. Are you interested in paintings? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

]Mr. Rdbinson. You say you were up some place looking at a 
painting. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you acquire paintings? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; I didn't buy that painting. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you thinking of buying it? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the price of it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh. a couple of hundred dollars. 

Mr. Robinson. $1,200? 

Mr. DeLucia. A couple of hundred dollars. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Have you bought paintings? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. off and on. 

]Mr. Robinson. And how many have you bought ? 

]Mr. DeLucia. Well, I bought some for $25, some for $50, or some- 
thing like that. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the highest price you have paid for a 
painting? 

Mr. DeLucia. About $400. 

Mr. Robinson. How much? 

Mr. DeLucia. $400. Well, $400 or $600. I think one I paid $500 
or $fiOO for. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever pay over a thousand dollars for one? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, never. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you make contributions to charities? 

]\lr. DeLucia. Oh, yes. 

]Mr. Robinson. Do you record those on your tax return? 

Mv. DeLucia. No. ' 

Mr. Robinson. W^hy not? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, what is the use? I put my expense; that is 
all. I give to the Catholic Church, a hundred dollars at Christmas, 
or something like that. 

Mr. R()P.iNSON. And you never record that for deduction purposes? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you made political contributions? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Never? 

Mr. DeLucia. Never. 

Mr. Robinson. Never through any one else? 

Mr. DeLucia. Never. 

]\lr. Robinson. You were arrested in November 1932, at the Planters 
Hotel ; is that right ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Where? 

Mr. Robinson. At the Planters Hotel. 

Mr. DeLucia. At the Planters? 

Mr. Robinson. Well, were you arrested in 1932? 

Mr. DeLucia. Where? Whereat? Where was it? 

Mr, Robinson. Well, I am asking you. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember the years. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't remember whether you were arrested in 
1932? 



50 OBGANIZE© crime; IN INTERSTATE OOMMERCE 

Mr. DeLucia. What was the occasion? Oh, I remember, but I 
don't remember the year. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't remember that? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember the year. Maybe it was so. I 
don't remember the occasion. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember with whom you were arrested 
around about that time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I told you I was arrested with Loki. Is that 
what you mean ? That is the Congress Hotel, isn't it? 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember having been arrested in 1930, at 
South Halsted Street? 

Mr. DeLucia. Wliere? 

Mr. Robinson. South Halsted Street. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. That is right, yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Who else was arrested ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember. 

Mr. Robinson. Weren't there other people there? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. You can refresh my memory. 

Mr. Robinson. Weren't there other people who were arrested there 
at the time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. It had something to do with listening to illegal 
returns over the radio. 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes. That was Charlie Coe, or somethmg like 
that, a politician. He was running for Congressman, for State repre- 
sentative, or something. I don't remember. We were up there listen- 
ing. Yes ; I remember that. 

Mr. Robinson. Who else was there ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, Frankie Rio, I think, and Charlie Correa. You 
have them there. Why should you ask me? I will believe what you 
say. I won't deny it. 

"Mr. Robinson. I don't want you to admit it. I want you to recall it. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember all those names. 

Mr. Robinson. Nitti killed himself? Is that right? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know why? 

Mr. DeLucia. He got up in the morning, and he killed himself. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't have any reasons of your own as to why 
he killed himself? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you associated with him at that time? 

Mr. DeLucia. In the trial, yes. 

Mr. Hallet. Do you know Tony Resotti ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know him as Jack Bracton? 

Mr. DeLucia. I know Jack Bracton. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know that his real name was Resotti ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike Lemandre ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Hal LaRocca ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Migeri ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 



ORGANIZED CRlMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 51 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Tocco ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Who? 

Mr. Hat.t.kt. Joseph Tocco. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know him? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chairman. Who do you know out at Kansas City « Did you 
know Gargotta? 

]\lr. DeLucia. No. 

The Chaiksian. Did you ever go to Kansas City ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was there when I came out. 

The Chairman. I know, but did you ever go there before that? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

]Mr. Halley. Did you know Balestrere ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. I know Gizzo, if that is what you want. 

The Chairman. How do you know Gizzo ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I met Gizzo in Florida with his wife. 

The Chairman. Did you ever have any business with him? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Binaggio? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

jSIr. Robinson. How often did vou go to Florida? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I went to Florida one year. It was in '38. I 
kept the family there about 6 months. That is all. 

Mr. Robinson. That is the only time you were ever in Florida? 

Mr. DeLucia. Before, I went and came back after a few days. 

Mr. Robinson. Who would you visit when you were there? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I would visit Al or somebody else. 

Mr. Robinson. You would stay at his house ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I would get a place, you know. 

Mr. Robinson. ySTho else would you visit besides Al ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, whoever was around. 

]Mr. Robinson. Well, who? Try and remember some of them. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember them. It is a long time ago, and 
there is no use in my mentioning names when I can't recall. 

]\Ir. Robinson. He is the only one that you can recall? 

:Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He is the only one I can say for sure. Maybe 
I met someone else. I can't say. 

Mr. Robinson. You were one of his closest friends, weren't you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I wasn't his closest friend. I was in trust. That 
is all. 

Mr. Robinson. You were very close to him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No one was close to Al. 

Mr. Robinson. You were as close as anyone ? 

]\Ir. DeLucia. Oh, no. Don't say that. 

Mr. Robinson. "WTio else was as close ? 

]SIr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you own a house at 5301 West Jackson Street? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I was living there. 

]Mr. Robinson. Wliat is that ? 

]Mr. DeLucia. I was renting there. 

Mr. Robinson. You were renting there. You never owned that? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 



52 ORGANIZBD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Did that place have a wall arouiul it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. Who tell you those thing? 

The Chairman. My. DeLiicia, you can jro back to Chicago, ihis 
nieetin<T is recessed, and you are still subject to subpena. I mean, the 
subi)ena is still to be held in force as to you. And we will expect that 
M-hen you are notitied to appear again, on the same subpena that you 
now have, you will be there. Now as quickly as possible, we will go 
through these books and return which ones we can to you. 

I suppose you need this book on your employees on your tarm : so 
that will be gotten back to you as soon as possible. 

You, upon the request of Mr. Robinson, will bring m the checks and 

the bank statements ? .^1-^^-4. 

Mr. DeLucia. You mean this Mr. Robinson m Chicago ^ 1 ou want 
the checks and what else ? i a- i 

Mr. Haei.ey. All of your papers, whatever you have, i ou under- 
stand what the chairman has said ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. Sure. . . 

The Chairman. Then you will be excused for this time. 

Mr. Robinson. Excuse me. I would like to clarify one thing, per- 
haps. Are these records the records that you turned over to the 
parole officer in Chicago? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

]Mr. Robinson. And you borrowed those from him to produce here i 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. i re 9 

Mr. Robinson. You are required to do that by the parole othcer i 

Mr. DeLucia. He call me in there. 

Mr. Robinson. You are required periodically to show him every- 
thing ? 
• Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. And you produced these books to do that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. But that is only from the time you came out ot the 

penitentiary? ' • ^ -, 

The Chairman. You work this matter out, then, with the parole 
officer, and we will expect you to bring it to Mr. Robinson the can- 
celed checks, the bank statements, or anything else you have, for his 
inspection. 

Mr. DeLucia. When do you want me to bring? 

Mr. Robinson. I will notify you. 

Mr. DeLucia. Are the books to be left here? 

The Chairman. They will be left here today. They will be brought 
back out to Chicago. 

Anything else ? 

Mr. Robinson. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. 

There is nothing else. You are free to return home. We will stand 
in recess until 1 : 30. 

(Whereupon, at 12: 25 p. m., a recess was taken until 1: 30 p. m., 
the same day.) 

AFTER RECESS 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
Mr. Campagna, you have been sworn, and I think we might as well 
have an understanding here to start with. The committee, the easy 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 53 

^vav or the hard way, is going to get any facts you know. We will 
get alontr a whole lot faster and better if you will be frank and not 
hesitate in answering questions, not try to avoid them, and tell us 
what information we want, because you are going to reniam under 
sub])ena until we get through with our investigation, bo we can 
save a lot of time if you will just tell us what we are interested in 
without us having to drag it out of you bit by bit. 

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS CAMPAGNA, BERWYN, ILL. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you state your full name \ 

Mr. Campagna. Louis Campagna. 

:\Ir. Robinson. Is that your real name I 

Mr. Campagna. It is. ,•,•>-. x i 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Campagna, this is exhibit ^o. 5 I am showing 
you. You were served with a subpena to produce certain books and 
records ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes : I was. 

]Mr. Robinson. I submit this as exhibit Xo. 5. 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record as o^hibit No. 5. 

( Plxhibit No. 5 appears in the appendix on p. 1379.) 

Mr, Robinson. Mr. Campagna, that subpena calls for certain books 
and records. 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have those books and records ? 

Mr. Campagna. I have as much as I could get. I got everything 
from my auditor. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you produce them, please? 

Mr. Campagna. I certainly will. 

Mr. Robinson. Who is your auditor? 

Mr. Campagna. Bansley & Keiner. 

The Chairman. Is that a firm ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where are they? 

Mr. Campagna. They are located on Wells Street, Chicago. 

Mr. Robinson. How'long have they been your auditor? 

Mr. Campagna. I think since 19o8 or 1937. 

Mr. Robinson. They have handled your books and records and your 
tax work ever since that time? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have these in any way so that you can iden- 
tify them? 

Mr. Campagna. Xo. 

Mr. Robinson. By grouping, I mean. 

Mr. Campagna. His grouping is in this book. 

Mr. Robinson. Let us take the book as exhibit Xo. 6. 

The Chairman. That is the ledger, exhibit Xo. 6. 

]Mr. Robinson. Let us call exhibit Xo. 7, the brown envelope, miscel- 
laneous bills and papers. 

The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record as such. 
( Exhibits Xo. 6 and 7 were later returned to witness.) 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have one that has copies of your income-tax 
returns? 

Mr. Campa{;na. How do you mean? 



54 ORGAJSriZED CRIME EN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. KoBiNSON. Do yon have a folder'that contains all the copies of 
your income-tax returns? 

Mr. Campagna, This is the one here. 

The Chairman. That will be exhibit No. 8. 

(Exhibit No. 8 was returned to witness after analysis by the com- 
mittee. ) 

Mr. Campagna. Here are a couple in here, 1949. I am not sure. 

Mr. Robinson. If j^ou have tax returns in there, let us put them 
all together. 

Mr. Campagna. I think they are all in there together. Whatever is 
.here, he gave me the whole thing. 

Mr. E-OBiNsoN. Exhibit No. 9 is also some miscellaneous documents. 

Mr. Robinson. What else do you have? 

Mr. Campagna. These here. I brought everything he gave mtj. 

Mr. Robinson. Exhibit No. 10 is some income-tax returns and other 
documents. 

The Chairman. They may be so marked. 

Mr. Robinson. A manila folder, exhibit No. 11, miscellaneous docu- 
ments. 

The Chairman. That may be so marked. 

(Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, and 11 were later returned to witness.) 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other books and records in your 
possession that you have not produced? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I have not. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any canceled checks? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes; I have. My son has them. He handles the 
checking. I didn't have a chance to go down and get them. Wlien I 
got the call, I came up here. 

The Chairman. Can you get them and turn them over to Mr. Rob- 
inson, when he asks for them ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How about bank statements ? 

Mr. Campagna. What do you mean ? 

Mr. Robinson. Does your son have those? 

Mr. Campagna. I suppose he does. 

Mr. Robinson. Are 'the documents you produced here merely the 
ones you had turned over to the probation officer in Chicago? 

Mr. Campagna. No. I just turned over to him 1948 and 1940. He 
wanted to know what I did since the day I came home. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you bring those documents with you ? 

Mr. Campagna. They are in there. 

Mr. Robinson. But you do have some other documents? 

Mr. Campagna. No; I haven't. 

Mr. Robinson. Canceled checks and bank statements. 

Mr. Campagna. The canceled check from the farm proceeds are 
in there. I will have to go down to Fowler, Ind., and get them. My 
son keeps them and handles all that. 

Mr. Robinson. I wish you would get them and produce them for 
me when I notify you through the parole officer. 

Mr. Campagna. That is fine. 

Mr. Robinson. As to when do the records go back ? 

Mr. Campagna. There is a mix-up between the records on the farm 
and tenants. I went away in 1943 and I came home in 1947. There 
was tenant farmers and was mostly run ou cash basis. 



OEGAJSflZED CRIMEi IN mTERSTATE COMMERCE 55 

Mr. Robinson". How about the record from 1941? The subpena 
calls for all records back to Jaiuiary 1941. 

Mr. CAMrAGNA. They are all there. I am talking about the fann. 
Those are the only proceeds I have since I came home. 

Mr. Robinson. In other words, what you have produced here and 
what your son has is the total amount of records covered by the 
subpena ? 

]\Ir. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. You are on parole at the present time? 

Mr. Campagna. I believe so. 

Mr. Robinson. Since 1947? 

Mr. Campagna. That is riglit. 

Mr. Robinson. And from 194o to 1947, were you in prison? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. What business are j'ou engaged in at the present 
time? 

Mr. Ca:mpagna. Just handling the both farms, supervising and 
watching over them. 

Mr. Robinson. What property do you own at the present time ? 

Mr. Campagna. I own a farm in P'owler, Ind., in partnership with 
my Avife, and the home I live in in partnership with my wife. 

Mr. Robinson. Where is your home ? 

Mr. Campagna. Berrien, 111. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that a residence ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that residence? 

Mr. Campagna. 1928 or 1929. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you pav for it ? 

Mr. Campagna. $13,500. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the value at the present time ? 

Mr. Campagna. That I would not be able to state. Offhand you 
ask me something I could not judge myself. 

Mr. Robinson. And have you made any improvements ? 

Mr. Campagna. I fixed the attic up. 

Mr. Robinson. How much money did you put in the house? 

jSIr. Campagna. I judge I didn't put in more than three or four 
thousand more. 

J\[r. Robinson. When did j'ou acquire the farm ? 

]Mr. Campagna. In 1942. 

Mr. Robinson. How many acres-is it? 

Mr. Campagna. 800 acres. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for it ? 

Mr. Campagna. $100,000. ' 

Mr, Robinson. Did you put any improvements into it ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, improvements to the buildings, painting. It 
was in pretty good shape. Some equipment also. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the total value of what you put into the 
farm? 

Mr. Campagna. I judge around $20,000. 

]Mr. Robinson. It wouldn't be more than that ? 

Mr. Campagna. I wouldn't think it would, no, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you acquired any stock or machinery for the 
farm ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes ; that is all included. 



56 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, KoBiNSON. It would be included in the $20,000? 

Mr. Campacna. Yes, sir. I wish you wouldn't ])in me down ex- 
actly to the figures because I am tryinij to do the best I can. 

Mr. Robinson, Approximately. Your sole source of income since 
you came out of the penitentiary has been from the farm ? 

Mr. Campagna, Since 1943, since I went to the penitentiary, and 
since I came home that is the only source of revenue I have, outside of 
dividends on White INIotors. 

Mr, Robinson, What is the farm used for? 

Mr, Campagna. We have steers; we have hogs; and we raise grain 
to try to feed our fattening out. 

Mr. Robinson. Who runs it for you ? 

Mr. Campagna. My son runs the Indiana farm. 

Mr. Robinson. Who superintends his running of it? 

Mr. Campagna, I do. 

Mr. Robinson. Who did wdiile you were in prison ? 

Mr. Campagna. There was an elderly man when I took it over. ' 
He stayed there quite a while. When I went aw^ay they had a boy by 
the name of Davey Sheetz, if I am not mistaken, on a 50-50 basis. 

Mr. Robinson. How many people do you employ on the farm? 

Mr, Campagna, I think he employs two, besides he works himself. 

The Chairman, Are there two farms involved here? 

Mr, Campagna, There are two farms involved. One is strictly my 
wife's and I run it with her own chickens, and I have 40 head of 
cattle. 

The Chairman, Is that at Fowler ? 

Mr, Campagna, No, sir; that is at Berrien Springs, 

Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for that farm? 

Mr. Campagna. $3,800 and $3,300, or $7,100. 

Mr. Robinson, She paid that for the farm ? 

Mr, Campagna. Yes, sir, 

Mr, Robinson, You advanced the money for that? 

Mr, Campagna, Some of it, 

Mr. Robinson. How large is the farm ? 

Mr. Campagna. Eighty acres. 

Mr. Robinson. How much improvements have you put in that? 

Mr, CampxVGna, There are quite a lot of improvements there, 

Mr, Robinson. Roughly how much have you spent ? 

Mr. Campagna. There are a lot of donations. That is why I say, 
you spend on there, I say there are $30,000 worth of improvements 
on there. 

Mr. Robinson. Donations? 

Mr. Campagna, Yes. 

Mr. Robinson, What sort of donations ? 

Mr. Campagna. From cement, from 1933 to 1934, they sent up the 
cement, and I did a lot of my own work. 

Mr. Robinson. Cement from your own company ? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. How would you get donations of cement ? 

Mr. Campagna, Well, a fellow was in the labor and material service, 
and just friendly, and he sent me up some cement. He came up to 
visit me, 

Mr, Robinson, How much did he send up to you ? 

Mr, Campagna. About 2,100 or 2,200 bags. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 57 

Mr. RoBiNsox. What was his name? 
Mr. Campagna. He is dead. Mike Grassio. 

Mr. Robinson. When did yon acquire that property, or your wife? 
Mr. Campagna. I think she acquired it in 1932. 
Mr. Robinson. And you still own it ? 
Mr. Campagna. That is right. 
Mr. Robinson. What is the value of it now ? 

Mr. Campagna. Well, it is hard to tell. It is according to what 
people would pay if they wanted it. 
The Chairman. Your best estimate. 

Mr. Campagna. Well, I don't know. I don't think I could get 
$40,000 for it if she went out and put it on the market. It is a fruit 
country center, and that is all you can raise. It is down at the low end 
of the river and for the last 3 or 4 years we have been flooded out. So 
I don't think anybody would be interested if they knew it. 
Mr. Robinson. What other property do you own ? 
Mr. Campagna. That is all. 

Mr. Robinson. What personal property do you own ? 
Mr. Campagna. Outside of what I have on me ? 
Mr. Robinson. Stocks, bonds. 
Mr. Campagna. I own 300 shares of White Motors, 
Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that ? 
Mr. Campagna. I judge around 8 or 9 years ago. 
Mr. Robinson. Do you remember what you paid for it? 
Mr. Campagna. No ; I don't. It was a variation, I think. I am not 
positive— 33 for 100 and 231/2 for the other 200. It may be a little 
less. I think 1 was 18. I am not positive. 
Mr. Robinson. Do you still have it ? 
Mr. Campagna. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What other stocks do you own ? 
Mr. Campagna. Between the both of us we have United States 
bonds. 
Mr. Robinson. What amount ? 

Mr. Campagna. About $15,000. That is not including the maturity. 
Mr. Robinson. What other stock ? 
Mr. Campagna. That is all, sir. 
Mr. Robinson. What stocks does your wife own ? 
Mr. Campagna. That is all she owns. 
Mr. Robinson. There is no stock she owns? 

Mr. Campagna. She owns 250 White Motors. I own 300 and she 
owns 250 shares. 

Mr. Robinson. Did she acquire those at the same time you did? 
Mr. Campagna. About the same time. 
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any interest in any business ? 
Mr. Campagna. No, sir; I have not, outside of these farms. 
Mr. Robinson. You receive no revenue from any other business ? 
Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I have not. 
Mr. Robinson. Except the f aims. 
Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. You are talking now from 1947 up to the present 
time. 

Mr. Campagna. I am talking about 1943. I dissolved all partner- 
ships. 

6S958 — 51— pt. 5 5 



58 ORGANIZED CRIME IN nSTTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. What partnerships? 

Mr. Campagna. I was in gambling. 

Mr. Robinson. Name the partnership. 

Mr. Campagna. It is in there. It is all a matter of record. 

Mr. Robinson. Yon mnst remember the name. 

Mr. Campagna. Mr. Heeney and Corgole. 

Mr. Robinson. Who else? 

Mr. Campagna. That is alL sir. 

Mr. Robinson. And that partnership was for ^Yhat period of time? 

Mr. Campagna. That was from around 1934, 1933 to 1934. 

Mr. Robinson. You had no partnership agreement with anyone 
else during that period of time except those two ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is all. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have partnership agreements with them 
prior to that time? 

Mr. Campagna. Prior to what? 

Mr. Robinson. 1933 or 1934. 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know just exactly tlie year, but I did not. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have any partnership agreement with any- 
one else prior to that time ? 

Mr. Campagna. Not to the best of my knowledge ; no. sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Tell me something about the nature of the partner- 
ship agreement. What was it in ? 

Mr. Campagna. Horse books. 

Mr. Robinson. You mean, it wasn't solely gambling, it Avas an in- 
terest in some particular place? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right, in a particular place in gambling. 

Mr. Robinson. What were the names of the places ? 

Mr. Campagna. The El Patio, and I don't recall what the place on 
Twelfth Street was named. I think that will all be in the record. I 
know the El Patio. 

Mr. Robinson. Then were there others besides that ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. That was the only place that you had an interest? 

Mr. Campagna. No; and one on Twelfth Street, but I can't recall 
the name of that. 

Mr. Robinson. How much money did you put into them? 

Mr. Campagna. I think we started out with about $1,500. 

Mr. Halle Y. Maybe I can help. The Austin Club. 

Mr Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. You put in about $1,500? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did Heeney ])ut in ? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know at that time what he put in. 

Mr, Robinson. How nuich did Corgole ]3Ut in ? 

Mr. Campagna. I think I put the money in myself. They had noth- 
ing. We just started a small place and built it up. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you subsequently invest in it? 

Mr. Campagna. About $1,500. 

Mr. Robinson. That is what you put in first. 

Mr. Campagna. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You said it was built up. Who put the money in 
to build it up ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 59 

Mr. Campagna. That is the same place. It is a bar in front and a 
room in the back. Maybe you don't understand what I am trymg to 
get. It was a bar in the front and a room in the back. We operated 
the room in the back. 

Mr. KoBiNSON. Did yon own the bar in front? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Who owned that? 

Mr. Campagna. I think Corgole or somebody else had the bar, 

Mr. Robinson. And you had the book. 

Mr. Campagna. The three of us had the book in the back. 

Mr. Robinson. You got no revenue from the bar? 

Mr. Campagna. No; I did not. 

Mr. Robinson. Who ran the book for you ? 

Mr. Campagna. Corgole. 

Mr. Robinson. Where did you get your wire service there ? 

Mr. Campagna. That I can't tell you. 

Mr. Robinson. You mean you don't know ? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. How did the information get into the book? 

]Mr. Campagna. The reason I say that, I never knew much about the 
book. He was the man who ran everything. I could not even tell 
you the odds on the betting on the horses. 

Mr. Robinson. This was from 1934 to 1943? 

Mr. Campagna. I said about 1934. 

Mr. Robinson. Approximately. 

Mr. Campagna. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you take out of that business during 
that time? 

Mr. Campagna. Gee, I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Can you give a rough approximation ? 

Mr. Campagna. It is all in the records. It is more positive that 
way than I have. 

Mr. Robinson. I don't think it is in the records. . 

Mr. Campagna. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Robinson. These records go back to 1934. 

Mr. Campagna. No ; they don't. 

Mr. Robinson. Then give me your best recollection of it. 

The Chairman. What did you make out of it in an average year? 

Mr. Campagna. Senator, it is pretty hard to judge. Some years you 
get a bad Dreak and some years a fair break. It is hard to judge. If 
I give a figure. I would be misquoting myself. 

The Chairman. What was the high year and the low year? 

Mr. Campagna. The high years were from about 1939- to 1943. We 
started in 1934, 1933, whatever it was. 

Mr. Robinson. Was it 40, 50, 60 thousand dollars ? 

Mr. Campagna. No ; it was not that kind of money in those days. 

Mr. Robinson. Did it subsequently develop into that kind of money ? 

Mr. Campagna. It did ; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What would you say was quite a bit ? 

Mr. Campagna. I would judge around 80 or 90 thousand dollars. 

Mr. Robinson. Would that be your peak ? 

Mr. Campagna. I think it would. 

The Chairman. Would that be your part? 

Mr. Campagna. No : that would be the whole. 



60 ORGANIZED CRIME 'IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE. 

Mr. KoBiNSON. That was split liow many ways? Three ways? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes. , . , , t u ■ ....^7 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any interest m the liquor business? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Never at any time? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you lay off betsj . 

Mr Campagna. They may have. You see, you are asking me some- 
thing about the booking business. Like I said a minute ^go. /.^^ont 
know much about it. This Corgole ran it and he may have aid off 

Mr. Robinson. Did you get any income trom your own individual 
0'imblinp' activities ^ 

Mr. CImpagna. None whatever. Let me explain that again, please. 
You mean having another book myself ? 

Mr. Robinson. No ; I mean betting yourself. 

Mr. Campagna. I might have. 

Mr Robinson. Any income you received^ 

Mr Campagna. I might have made a few dolhirs, and I might have 
taken a loss, too, going to the track and betting myself, back and 

Mr RomNsoN. Do I understand correctly that Corgole was the one 
that made all the arranoements about the wire service i 

Mr Campagna. He handled the whole book and everything else. 

Mr. Robinson. Is this for the two places ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr Robinson. You speak of 80 or 00 thousand dol ars approxi- 
mately, the top figure; was that from one place or both places? 

Mr." Campagna. Both places 

Mr. Robinson. Which was the most profitable^one ? 

Mr. Campagna. Well, that was a question. Sometimes the one on 
Twelfth Street would be profitable 

Mr. Robinson. Were they about equal? ^ ^1,^ ,,,^1 

Mr. Campagna. I would say they would be about equal at the end 

"""^MrRoBiNSON. Do you know an address by tlie number of 3730 AVest 

Roosevelt Road? 

Mr Campagna. 3730— no; I do not. w + t? o« 

Mr. Robinson. Are there quite a few book places along West Roose- 
velt Road? ^^ ^ 

Mr. Campagna. Gee, I could not say. .1 u • 00 1.. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have any interest in any other business be- 
side this bookmaking business ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir, I did not. _ 

Mr. Robinson. During that period of time 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir; to the best of my knowledge, I would say 

"■^Mr. Robinson. I don't know whether I asked you. Do you have a 
place at Fowler, Ind. ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. That is about 400 acres? 

Mr. Campagna. No, it is more than that. Today it is 950 acres. It 
was 800 acres originally. I just bought 150. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for the 15U ? 

Mr. Campagna. $22,500. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 61 

Mr. RoBixsox. "Where did the money come from to pay that ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I had it. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Was that income received from your farm ? 

Mr. Campagxa. Some. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Where did the rest of it come from ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I had it home. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What bank do you bank with ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I haven't got no bank outside of Fowler, Ind. We 
bank all our checkino; for the farm in Lafayette, I think. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Do you keep money around the house ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I do. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How much ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I sometimes keep seven or eight thousand dollars. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How much ? 

Mr. Campagxa. Seven or eight thousand dollars. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Is that the largest amount you kept around the 
house ? 

Mr. Campagxa. Sometimes more. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How much? 

Mr. Campagxa. I don't know exactly. Sometimes $20,000. Some- 
times when I was in partnership from'^the Fowler farm, I sell a herd 
of cattle, and you might have $20,000. 

Mr. RoBixsox. During the time you were operating the gambling 
X)lace, how much money did you keep"^at the house ? 

Mr. Campagxa. About three or four thousand dollars. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you have a safe deposit box ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I did not. 
Mr. RoBixsoN. Never at any time ? 
Mr. Campagxa. Not that I can recall. 
Mr. RoBixsox. Well, do you nave any other personal assets ? 
Mr. Campagxa. No, I have not. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Do you have an interest in the Seneca Hotel? 
Mr. Campagxa. None whatever. 
Mr. RoBixsox. Ever have one ? 
Mr. Campagxa. I just don't recall whether I did. 
The Chabrmax. You know whether you had an interest. 
Mr. Campagxa. Just a minute. I will answer it. If I am right, 
I will answer. I just don't want to make no mistakes, either. No, 
I haven't. 
Mr. RoBixsox. Are these books that you had in Cicero ? 
Mr, Campagxa. Yes, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Didn't you have a monopoly of that in Cicero ? 
Mr. Campagxa. No, I did not. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Wlio else was running books there at the time? 
Mr. Campagxa. Well, I don't know. 
Mr. RoBixsox. You must know some of them. 
Mr. Campagxa. No, I don't know any bookmakers. 
Mr. RoBixsox. You know of no other person who was running 
a bookie place in Cicero at the time you were ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I never paid any attention to running the book. 
I just walked in and out of the place we had and I didn't pay at- 
tention to it. 
Mr. RoBixsox. Do you know Tony Accardo ? 
Mr. Campagxa. Yes, I do. 



62 ORGANIZED CRIME 'IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Robinson. For how long? 

Mr. Campagna. 15 or 18 years. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know him intimately ? 

Mr. Campagna. I would say yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Mr. DeLucia ? 

Mr. Campagna. I do. 

Mr. Robinson. You have known him intimately ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. For how long? 

Mr. Campagna. I would say about the same. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Gioe ? 

Mr. Campagna. I have known him for quite a while, too. 

Mr. Robinson. Where did you come from originally? 

Mr. Campagna. Originall}' { 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Campagna. Well, I hit, I think, Chicago in 1913. I was 
all over the country. I left home. 

Mr. RoRiNSON. "\Vliat were you doing at that time ? 

ISIr, Campagna, Just bumming around, 

Mr, Robinson, You had no source of income at that time? 

Mr, Campagna, No; I was just working and getting a little money 
and bumming around. 

Mr, Robinson, How would you get the money ? 

Mr. Campagna. Working. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you get it anj' other way ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you convicted of robbery at one time? 

Mr. Campagna. I was; in 1919. 

Mr. Robinson. You served time for that? 

Mr. Campagna. I did, sir. 

Mr, Robinson, How old were you then I 

Mr, Campagna, About 17, 18. 

Mr, Robinson, How come you settled in Chicago ? 

Mr, Campagna, Well, I guess it was a good city to live in, 

Mr, Robinson. What was that? 

Mr. Campagna. I guess it was a good city to live in. I liked it. 

Mr. Robinson. What made up your mind on that score ? 

Mr. Campagna. Well, the first thing I had to do my parole there. 
Then I got Avorking there and I stayed there. 

]\Ir, Robinson, >Vhere were you working? 

Mr, Campagna, A print shop, I think it is Van Buren and Market, 
or Van Buren and Wells, 

Mr, Robinson, How long did you work there ? 

Mr, Campagna, I worked there, I would say, about a year. 

Mr, Robinson, Then what did you do ? 

Mr, Campagna. Just took odd-and-end jobs, 

Mr. Robinson. When did you start working for Al Capone ? 

Mr. Campagna. Well, let's see. I would sa}^ I was with him for a 
couple of years around 1927. 

Mr, Robinson. When? 

Mr. Campagna. 1927. 

Mr. Robinson, He brought you to Chicago, didn't he ? 

Mr, Campagna. No, sir ; he did not. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COAEMERCE 63 

Mr. RoBiNsox. Who brought you there? 

Mr. Campagxa. I brought myself there. 

Mr. EoBixsox. How did you first meet him ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I was hanging around the saloon where he was 
delivering. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Where he was what? 

Mv. Campagxa. Delivering. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What? 

Mr. Campagxa. Delivering beer, I guess. 

Mr. EoBixsox. That was during prohibition ? 

Mr. Campagxa. That is right, sir. 

Mr, RoBixsox. Tell us how you happened to meet him. 

Mr. Campagxa. That is the way 1 met him in the saloon. I asked 
him for a job and went to work for him. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What kind of a job? 

Mr. Campagxa. Just ''tailing" merchandise. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Tailing merchandise? 

Mr. Campagxa. That is right. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What does that mean ? 

Mr. Campagxa. Like alcohol and beer. 

Mr. RoBixsox. I don't understand. Tailing it? 

Mr. Campagxa. That is right. 

Mr. RoBixsoN. How do you tail it? 

Mr. Campagxa. Just watching it, seeing nobody robs it. 

Mr. RoBiNsox. Were you armed ? 

Mr. Campagxa. Xo, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Xever was ? 

Mr. Campagxa. Well, yes, I have been armed. 

Mr. RoBixsox. When did you first start putting on arms? 

Mr. Ca3ipagxa. When I got in that trouble in 1919. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you start after you had formed this acquaint- 
ance with Capone and started working for him? 

Mr. Campagxa. Xo, I didn't. I stopped after I come out. 

Mr. RoBixsox. You never had a gun on while you were working for 
Capone ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I was arrested and accused of having a gun on me 
in 1927 or 1928, 1 am sure. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you have a gun on ? 

Mr. Campagxa. Yes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. So you did have a gun on at one time while you were 
working for Capone? 

Mr. Campagxa. That is right. 

Mr. RoBixsox. That is while you were tailing? 

Mr. Campagxa. No, I wasn't doing nothing. I got arrested in the 
morning downtown. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you also drive for Capone, chauffeur? 

]Mr. CAMPAGXA. Xo, I drove several times out to the dog track with 
him, but I wouldn't say I was a chauffeur. I mean there were other 
people around that were chauffeurs, but sometimes he asked me to 
drive and I drove him out. 

Mr. RoBixsox. You were one of his bodyguards, weren't you ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I wouldn't say that. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Well, were you or weren't you? 

Mr. Campagxa. Xo. 



64 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTA'T'E C0M]VOT:RCE 

Mr, Robinson. Never was ? 

Mr. Campagna. No. I may be accused of a lot of things. 

Mr. Robinson. How many times were you arrested? 

Mr. Campagna. On numerous times. I just don't recall about how 
many. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Greenberg? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes ; I know him. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Campagna. Oh, I have known him, I would say, a few years. 

Mr. Robinson. About the time you met Capone ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, it was away after that. 

Mr, Robinson. What was your actual business with Capone ? 

Mr. Campagna. I just explained, just working for him. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you get for that i 

Mr. Campagna. About $50 a week. 

JNIr, Robinson. Did you get anything else from any other source at 
that time ? 

Mr. Campagna. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Robinson. What have been your union acti^nties ? 

Mr. Campagna. None. 

Mr, Robinson, No connection with any union ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Never at any time ? 

Mr, Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you involved in any union litigation? 

Mr. Campagna. Well, yes ; in this extortion of 1943, I was. 

Mr, Robinson. Prior to that ? 

Mr, Campagna, Prior to that, I was not. It goes back. It is a 
conspiracy, they say, to 1934—35. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Frank Nitti ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Wlien did you meet him ? 

Mr. Campagna. I met Frank around 1928 or 1929, something like 
that. 

Mr. Robinson. And you stated you know Paul Ricca ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr, Robinson, What was Paul Ricca's connection with Al Capone! 

Mr, Campagna, That I never did know. 

Mr. Robinson. You never did know that ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right.'' 

Mr, Robinson, Well, you knew it was a close association? 

Mr. Campagna. No ; I wouldn't say that. To me the man was close 
with a lot of people. I couldn't say which one was close and which 
wasn't. 

Mr. Robinson. Name some he was close to. 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know them. 

Mr. Robinson. Well, he was close to Ricca ? 

Mr. Campagna. Not that I know of, 

Mr, Robinson, How about Murray Humphreys ? 

Mr, Campagna. I don't know him. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know him ? 

Mr. Campagna. I say I don't know. You say was he close to Al. 
I don't know. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 65 

Mr. Robinson. How long liave you known him? 

Mr. Campagna. I have known Humphreys for a few years. 

Mr. Robinson. How long? 

JNIr. Campagna. Eight or seven years. 

]Mr. Robinson. Were you ever associated in business with him? 

Mr. Campagna. None whatever. 

Mr. Robinson. What business was he in ? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you ever had any knowledge of what business 
he was in? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Robinson, Or what his source of income was ? 

Mr. Campagna. No; I did not. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Jack Guzik ? 

Mr. Campagna. I Iniow him. 

Mr. Robinson. How long? 

Mr. Campagna. Ten or 12 years. 

Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Campx\gna. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you ever associated with him? 

Mr. Campagna. Before? If you call associated meeting him in 
the cafe for dinner 

Mr. Robinson. Let me put it this way. Were you ever associated 
with him in any business activity in connection with gambling? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Never at any time? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Fred Evans? 

Mr. Campagna. Fred Evans, I have known him for quite a few 
years. 

Mr. Robinson, What business was he in ? 

Mr. Campagna. That I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you ever associated in business with him? 

Mr. Campagna, No, sir, 

Mr, Robinson, Louis Romano? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson, You knew him? 

Mr, Campagna. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know what business ? 

Mr. Campagna, No. 

Mr. Robinson. Danny Stanton? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr, Robinson, Joe Fusco ? 

Mr, Campagna, No, sir, 

Mr. Robinson, You know Pete Fosco? 

Mr, Campagna. I know him. 

Mr, Robinson. Who is he ? 

Mr. Campagna. Committeeman, first ward. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Joe Fusco? 

Mr. Campagna. I know him. 

Mr. Robinson. That is the committeeman? 

Mr. Campagna. No, 

Mr. Robinson, Who is Joe Fusco ? 



66 ORGANIZE'D CRIME' IN INTEIRSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Campagna. I think lie is in tlie liquor business if I am not 
mistaken. I am not positive of that, what he is, but that is what I 
think it is. 

Mr. Robinson. You were never in business with him ? 

Mr. Campagna. No ; I was not. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Johnny Patton ? 

Mr. Campagna. No; I was not. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Campagna. Know of him. 

Mr. Robinson. Never met him ? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know whether I did or not. 

Mr. Robinson. Phil D'Andrea ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, I know him. 

Mr. Robinson. How lon<^ have you know him ? 

Mr. Campagna. I have known him for a few years previous to this 
trouble. 

Mr. Robinson. What business was he in ? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Ralph Pearce? 

Mr. Campagna. I know him. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Campagna. A few years before this trouble. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you ever been associated in business with him? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I was not. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever work for the Fischettis ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know them ? 

Mr. Campagna. Know of them. 

Mr. Robinson. Know of them? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Ever met them ? 

Mr. Campagna. I know Charles. 

Mr. Robinson. What was your connection with Charles? 

Mr. Campagna. Dinner, no connection at all. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you first meet him? 

Mr. Campagna. That I don't know. I think it was at the Chez 
Paree at one time having dinner. 

Mr. Robinson. Was it at tlie time you were working for Capone? 

Mr. Campagna. No; I don't think so. I think it was after that. 

Mr. Robinson. Did your first meeting of any of these people occur 
while you were working for Capone ? 

Mr. Campagna. Some may have. 

Mr. Robinson. In fact, it was most of them; wasn't it? 

Mr. Campagna. No ; I wouldn't say most of them. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever go under the name of Carmini? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Robinson. When ? 

Mr. Campagna. I judge around 1930. I used it once or twice. 

Mr. Robinson. What other names have you gone under ? 

Mr. Campagna. I just can't recall offhand. Many times I would 
stop in the hotel and give a fictitious name. 

The Chairman. What did you go under the name of Carmini for? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 



ORGANIZED CRIME- IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 67 

Mr. EoBiNSON. '\Miat ayohIcI you chanfje your name for? 
Mr. Campagna. I would do it many times when I stopped at the 
hotel and just give my name, 

Mr. Robinson. Some particular reason for it ? 

IVIr. Campagna. No ; there was no reason for it. 

Mr. Robinson. "V\niere did you acquire the name "Little New York" ? 

Mr. Campagna. That was pinned on me by the newspapers. 

Mr. Robinson, Because you originally came from New York? 

Mr. Campagna. From Brooklyn ; that is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Jack McGurn ? 

Mr. Campagna. I did know him ; yes, 

Mr. Robinson. What did he do ? 

Mr. Campagna, That I don't know, 

Mr, Robinson, You have no knowledge of what Jack McGurn did ? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he work for Capone ? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Frankie and Mike Kelly ? 

Mr. Campagna. I know of them. 

]Mr, Robinson. When did you first learn about them or meet them ? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. Casually being in the booking game 
at that time, you met a lot of people, I guess every one of them played 
horses or liked to play horses. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you meet them while working with Capone ? 

Mr. Campagna. I didn't work with Capone very long, so I don't 
know. 

Mr. Robinson. How long did you work for Capone ? 

Mr. Campagna. A couple of years at tops. I don't think it was even 
a couple of years. 

Mr. Robinson. Always at the same pay ? 

Mv. Campagna. That is all I ever got from him. 

Mr. Robinson. $50 a week ? 

:Mr. Campagna. That is right, and that is why I left. 

Mr. Robinson. Ernie Rossick ? 

Mr. Campagna. I never knew him. 

Mr. Robinson, James and Rocco Belcastro ? 

Mr, Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Rocco Finelli ? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Frank Diamond? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes ; I know him. 

Mr. Robinson. What did he do ? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Mr. Campagna, how is it that you know these 
people, and you know some of them pretty well, and you do not know 
what they do ? 

Mr. Campagna. Well, usually you don't ask people their business, 
how they make their money, or religion, or politics. If they volun- 
teered, the only tiling I could say is what they told me. If you meet 
a man in the cafe or book, j^ou are not sociable with him. 

The Chairman. If you know them, you know what they do. 

Mr. Campagna, A fellow could surmise that they are bookmaking, 
but it would be foolish for me to say what I surmised. 



68 O'RGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Let us have your surmise of what Jack McGurn did. 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. What was his nickname? 

Mr. Campagna. I never did know his nickname. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Do you know whether he had a nickname ? 

Mr. Campagna. That I never asked. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. You know it was "Macliine Gun" Jack McGurn. 

Mr. Campagna. If you say so. That is what the papers say. I 
will have to say "Yes," because I read that, but I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Claude Maddox ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How long? 

Mr. Campagna. A few years. 

Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Campagna. What I know, I think he was interested in some 
kind of saloon out there in Cicero. I don't know. That is just 
hearsay. 

Mr. Robinson. Sam Hunt. 

Mr. Campagna. I know of him. 

Mr. Robinson. You say you know of him ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. You never met him ? 

Mr. Campagna. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know James Ragen ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Patrick Burns ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know any people connected with the wire 
service business ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Hymie Levin ? 

Mr. Campagna. I know Hymie ; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Campagna. I know Hymie for quite a few years. I met him at 
Mayo Bros. 

Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Campagna. Bookmaking, I surmise. I cannot positively say. 
You are asking me to surmise. I am just giving you that. 

Mr. Robinson. Roy Jones? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know him ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know any of the Kelly s of the wire service 
business ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, sir ; I do not. 

The Chairman. How about this fellow Curry ? 

Mr, Campagna. I know of him. 

The Chairman. You know him personally ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes ; I met him. 

The Chairman. He was in the wire service business, was he not? 

Mr. Campagna. Not that I know of. I read about this wire stuff 
while I was in the penitentiary. I never heard about it before. 

Mr. Robinson. Who visited you in the penitentiary ? 

Mr. Campagna. My wife, my cliildren, my lawyer, Mr. Bernstein. 



J 



ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 69 

Mr. EoBiNSON. How did you happen to retain him ? 

Mr. Campagna. Who? 

Mr. Robinson. Bernstein. 

Mr. Campagna. My wife retained him. 

Mr. Robinson. To handle what? 

Mr. Campagna. Our income tax. 

Mr. Robinson. Had he worked on your taxes before you went to 
prison? 

Mr. Campagna. No. After I went to prison is when all this came 
up. They put a lien on the farm and my wife's property and all, and 
she retained a lawyer. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you owe on j^our income tax? 

Mr. Campagna. Personally I would say nothing. 

Mr. Robinson. Let us put it this way. How much did the Gov- 
ernment allege that you owed? 

Mr. Campagna. I think the figures were — newspaper figures I have 
to go by — the rest of the sheets are in there, the whole case in is 
there. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't your lawyer tell you how much you owed? 

]Mr, Campagna. According to the figures it was $480,000. That is 
with interest and penalty or whatever it is. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't Berstein tell you how much you owed? 

Mr. Campagna. How do you mean? 

Mr. Robinson. You say you learned it from the newspapers. 

Mr. Campagna. That is the first I ever got it, from the newspapers. 

Mr. Robinson. How was it paid? 

Mr. Campagna. What do you mean, how was it paid ? 

Mr. Robinson. There was a compromise settlement on your tax 
return. 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know whether it was a compromise. It was 
a court decision. 

Mr. Robinson. Anyway, you paid some money to the Government. 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you pay it? 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have the money to pay it? 

Mr. Campagna. I did not. 

Mr. Robinson. How much was it? 

Mr. Campagna. I think it was $80,000 or $89,000 plus the interest, 
whatever that was. 

Mr. Robinson. That you yourself owed? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir; myself. 

Mr. Robinson. That is apart from what DeLucia owed. 

Mr. Campagna. I had nothing to do with DeLucia. His case was 
separate from mine. 

Mr. Robinson. How was the money paid? 

Mr. Campagna. That I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know how it was paid ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, I do not. 

Mr. Robinson. I am not asking you if you know who paid it. 

Mr. Campagna. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Did Bernstein ever tell you how it was paid ? 

Mr. Campagna. Well, what I heard at the congressional meeting, 
I heard how he said it was paid. 



70 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson". Was that the first time you ever heard how it was 
paid ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. KoBiNSON. What year was that? 

Mr. Campagna. I think it was 1946. I was in the penitentiary at 
that time. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Didn't Bernstein tell you how it was paid ? 

Mr. Campagna. I never asked him. He just said it was paid. 

Mr. Robinson. He told you while you were in prison ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You are not going to expect us to believe that? 

Mr. Campagna. It sounds fantastic, but it is true. 

Mr. Halley. It sounds like a lie. 

Mr. Campagna. You can put it that way, sir. I am trying to ex- 
plain the way he explained. 

Mr. Halley. Don't expect the committee to accept the statement 
that the lawyer told you that the money was paid and you didn't ask 
how it was paid. 

Mr. Campagna. I just explained to you that the first time that I 
knew it was at the congressional hearing. People brought the money 
and he paid it. 

]Mr. Halley. You said you didn't even ask him when he told you 
in person how it was paid for j^ou. 

Mr. Campagna. Let me get that straight. 

Mr. Halley. You said your lawyer came to see you in person. 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And you said you didn't ask him how he got the money 
a]id where he got it or who gave it to him. 

Mr. Campagna. At that time I did not. 

Mr. Halley. I don't believe it. 

The Chairman. Why didn't you ask him ? 

]Mr. Campagna. I didn't ask. He did not talk about money at all. 
He said, "Your tax was settled." The only time I heard about it was 
in 1947 when we went before Congress. 

The Chairman. Would it not be a natural question since $120,000 
was paid on your behalf, that j^ou would ask? 

Mr. Campagna. He didn't tell me even the figures. 

The Ciix\iRMAN. You knew it was a very large amount. 

Mr. Campagna. I didn't know, because I was getting accused of a 
lot of things in that settlement that I didn't think it would ever be( 
that much. 

The Chairman. You knew it was a large amount that they claimed 
you owed, and you did not inquire wdio paid it and how ? 

Mr. Campagna. Wlien I got home I inquired. He said he didn't^ 
know. That is how I found out at the Congress. 

The Chairman. Did he not come to the prison and tell you? Did 
you not ask him ? 

Mr. Campagna. He just said it was paid and that is all. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he tell you how much? 

Mr. Campagna. $80,000 or^$89,000 and interest. 

Mr. Robinson. At the time you were in prison ? 

Mr. Campagna. No, he didn't. At the congressional 

The Chairman, What is your best idea about who paid that money ? 

Mr. Campagna. That I don't know. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN ESTTERSTATE COMMERCE 71 

The CiiAiRMAX. You must have some theory about it. Either it 
would have to be your family or friends or somebody that was under 
obligation to you or that you had done something for. Your family 
did not pay it, did they? 

Mr. Campagxa. No. 

The Chairman. What is your theory about it ? 

ISIr. Campagxa. It must have been some friends who paid it, but I 
have never found out. It couldn't have been strangers. 

The Chairman. Strangers would never have come in and put up 
$120,000. 

Mr. Campagxa. That is right. 

The CiiAiRMAX. You must have some idea who paid it. Who do 
you think paid it ? 

Mr. Campagxa. That I don't know. 

The Chairmax. You may not know, but what is your best judg- 
ment ? 

Mr, Campagxa. I hesitate to mention names, because I wouldn't 
have an idea who paid. I thought it would come out before this. 

The Chairmax. Do you think Mr. Bulger paid it ? 

Mr. Campagxa. I couldn't say. 

The Chairmax. He was head of some organization that you be- 
longed to, wasn't he ? 

]\Ir. Campagxa. That I belong ? 

The Chairmax. Yes. 

Mr. Campagxa. I don't belong to no organization. 

The Chairmax. I mean at that time. 

Mr. Campagxa. No ; I don't belong to no organization at that time 
or any other time. 

The Chairmax. You say you tried to find out who paid it ? 

Mr. Campagxa. No ; I saicl I never did, because I can't. 

The Chairmax. Why ? 

Mr. Campagxa. Because the people I associated with know I am on 
parole and I have been staying away from anybody. If anybody 
same down to Bernstein and gave the money, just like I tell the parole 
division, I show them what they wanted. 

The Chairmax. You made no effort to find out. 

Mr. Campagxa. I have not associated with anybody. 

The Chairmax. Have you made any effort to find out who paid the 
money ? 

Mr. Campagxa. No ; I have not. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Do you mean Bernstein came to you in prison and 
just said the money is paid ? 

Mr. Campagxa. When he came down there, I asked him how is the 
tax getting along. The last time he came down he was not very long, 
just in and out. and if my memory serves me right, he came to find out 
about certain years. I said, "I don't know; you will have to see the 
auditor." He got together with the auditor and when he came back he 
visited me three or four times, the last time was the latter part of 1946, 
which the record will show, and he said to me that it was all straight- 
ened out or on the verge of it. The next I heard about the tax was 

Mr. KoBiNsox. Let us stop there. He said to you in prison it is all 
straightened out. 

Mr. Campagxa. The tax situation is straightened out. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you ask him how ? 



72 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Campagna. I supposed tlirougli court. I don't know the 
process. 

Mr. Robinson. You knew there was money owed. 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, that is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ask him, "Well, did my wife give you the 
money?" 

Mr. Campagna. No, I didn't ask him anything. To the best of my 
knowledge, I didn't. I just took it for granted it was taken care of. 

Mr. Robinson. By being taken care of, it was paid ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. And you didn't ask where he got the money to pay it ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. From your wife or somebody else ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. You didn't ask him about that ? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did you have a big amount of money put away at 
that time ? 

Mr. Campagna. I wouldn't say a big amount. I had some money. 

The Chairman. How much ? 

Mr. Campagna. I judge around $30,000. 

The Chairman. Did you ask him whether he used that money ? 

Mr. Campagna. He wouldn't know where to get it and nobody else 
would. 

Mr. Robinson. "Wliere did you have it ? 

Mr. Campagna. I had it hidden. 

Mr. Robinson. I asked you if you had any money around the house 
and you said the most you had Avas seven or eight thousand dollars. 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. That was in your house. 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Apparently you had some at some place outside of 
the house that was not in a bank or safe deposit. 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Where was that? 

Mr. Campagna. It was in some fellow's house. 

Mr. Robinson. Who was the fellow ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. That is a proper question. 

Mr. Campagna. Well, I will be frank, I had it at home. I didn't 
want my wife or nobody to know about it. I was going to go away 
for quite a while and I didn't know 

Mr. Robinson. You had it hidden in your own home? 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Now, you are either lying now or you were before. 
You said it was in another fellow's house. You said it was not in 
your house. You are trying not to tell the committee where you had 
it. As counsel for the committee, I would advise the committee not to 
accept the answer. 

The Chairman. You said it was in somebody's house. 

Mr. Halley. You were definite about it. 

Mr. Campagna. I would like to retract the statement. 

Mr. Halley. Your retraction has no effect at all, because the way 
you testified, it is quite clear it was not in your own house, that it was 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 73 

in somebody else's house, and after the chairman told you you had to 
answer the question, and say in whose house it was, you changed your 
testimony. You are lying either now or then. Which way do you 
want to have it. Either way you are committing perjury. Which 
way do you want it? 

Mr. Campagna. I had it at home. 

Mr. Halley. You mean you were lying when you told the committee 
it was in somebody else's house ? 

Mr. Campagna. I wasn't lying. I just said somebody else's house. 

Mr. Halley. That was a lie, wasn't it? It was untrue, was it not? 

Mr. Campagna. I wouldn't say it was untrue. 

Mr. Halley. I would say it was untrue. You said it. You used 
those words, did you not ? 

Mr. Campagna. I did. 

Mr. Halley. And you knew what you were saying? 

Mr. Campagna. No I didn't know what I was saying. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't know what you were saying when you said 
it was in somebody else's house? 

Mr. Campagna. No. 

Mr. Halley. You are lying again. This is the third lie when you 
say that you didn't know^ what you were saying. 

INIr. Campagna. I just told you that I had it home. I didn't want 
anybody to know where I had it. 

Mr. Halley. You told Mr. Robinson quite definitely that you didn't 
have it home. Then you had it in somebody's house. Then he asked 
whose house, and you hesitated to answer, and the chairman said you 
had to answer. Then you changed your testimony and you said you 
had it in your own house. Now, one or the othei'^ statement was untrue, 
is that not so ? 

Mr. Campagna. I suppose. 

Mr. Halley. Well, isn't it? 

The Chairman. Where did you have the money ? 

Mr. Campagna. I had it home. 

Mr. Robinson. I asked you a short while ago how much money you 
had in your house and you told me, I believe, seven or eight thousand 
dollars. 

Mr. Campagna. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Now you are telling me that you had $30,000 in your 
house. 

Mr. Campagna. I said around $30,000, 1 am not sure. 

Mr. Robinson. So when I asked you how^ much you had in the house 
previously, you didn't tell me the total amount that you had in the 
house. 

Mr. Campagna. Well, that is w^hat I meant. 

Mr. Robinson. In other words, you didn't intend to say anything 
about the $30,000 that you had hidden somewhere. 

Mr, Campagna. No; I would say something. The question would 
come up about the income, and I w ould tell you about it, and I would 
tell the truth about it. 

Mr. Halley. You realize you perjured yourself wdth one answer 
or tlie other. 

Mr. Cajnipagna. I am telling you the truth. You are asking ques- 
tions and I am giving you the best of my knowledge. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 5 6 



74 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. H.MXEY. I think yon are doino- the opposite. 

Mv. C'a:mi'ac;xa. I don't think so. You misunderstand me m a lot 

The CnAiR:*rAN. I think it might be very well for the committee to 
o-o back over this record and review the questions and answers, and 
see if this witness has perjured himself. After all, he is on parole. 
I think we mioht have a short recess for that purpose. 

Mr. H ALLEY. I a.o-ree. 

The CiLMRMAN. Will you wait outside, Mr. Campagna, while we 
go over this matter ? 

Mr. Campagna. Yes, sir. 

(A short recess was taken.) . ^ ^ 

The CiiAiRMAX. Mr. Campagna, the committee is not satished with 
the answei^ you have given to this question about where the money 
was. You have given two different answers. So that unless you have 
some further statement you want to make about anything, we will 
have no further questions to ask you at this time. 

Mr. Campagna. That is the only thing. I told you the truth. 1 
had it at home. I just didn't want to divulge I had it at home. Not 
that I made any wrong statements here or anything else. A lot of 
things you asked me naturally a person cannot remember 15 or 18 
years ago, 7 or 8 or 10 years ago. I am trying to do the best I can. 
I am not here to lie to you or hurt anybody. 

The Chairman. Do vou have any other statement you want to make ? 

Mv. Ca^ipagna. Weil, that is all I can say. I have answered truth- 
fully everything I have known. I have tried my best to the best of my 

knowledge. -, -, • ^ j> 

The Chair^ian. We will take this matter under advisement tor 
future action, but I see no reason for going on. You will remain under 
subpena, Mr. Campagna. 

Mr. Campagna. Do I have to stay here in town? 

The Chair^ian. You do not have to stay in town, but when you are 
notified to come back or subject to any further action of the Senate, 
jou will appear. 

Mv. Campagna. That is right. 

The Chairman. That is all. 

Mr. Campagna. I hope I done the best I could for you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gioe, will you hold up your right hand? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. GiOE. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kobinson. 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES GIOE, CHICAGO, ILL. 

Mv. Robinson. Will you state your full name? 

Mr. GiOE. Charles Gioe. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that spelled G-i-o-e ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. What is your residence ? 

Mr. Gioe. 200 East Chestnut Street. 

Mr. Robinson. Chicago? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 75 

Mr. RoBiisrsoN. IVliat is that place ? 

Mr. GiOE. Seneca Hotel. 

Mr. TvOBixsox. Mr. Gioe, you were served witli a subpena to produce 
certain books and records This is a copy of it? 

Mr, GiOE. I have one in my pocket. 

The Chairmax. Let that be marked "Exhibit No. 12.-' 
(Exhibit Xo. 12 appears in the appendix on p. 1380.) 

Mr. RoBiNSOx. Do 3'ou liave the books and records to produce in 
compliance with that subpena? 

Mr. GiOE. I have income-tax returns from 1941 and 1942. I asked 
the auditor and he didn't know if he could find 1943. He just gave me 
copies because his records are under subpena. 

Mr. RoBixsox, "\"\nio is that? 

Mr. GiOE. Bernard Shaeffer. I have my record here of 1948 and 
1949 . 

]\Ir. RoBiNsox. Will j^ou produce those, please ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox. ]Mr. Gioe, let us take these hurriedly. Here is a 
group of records tied together with elastic bands. Can vou identify 
these? ^ 

Mr. Gioe. Them are checks. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Those are canceled checks? 

]Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And bank statements. 

Mr. Gioe. They are in there. I told the auditor to get everything 
he possibly could. 

The Chairmax. Let those be marked "Exhibit No. 13." 

Mr. RoBixsox. Let us make the book marked "Work sheets, balance 
sheets, bank reconciliations," exhibit No. 14. 

The Chairmax. That will be made a part of the record as such. 

Mr. RoBixsox. A black ledger book, exhibit No. 15. 

The Chairmax. That will be a part of the record. 

Mr. RoBixsox. An envelope containing balance sheets, exhibit 
No. 16. 

The Chairmax. It will be made a part of the record. 

Mr. GiFE. This is a penciled copy of my 1941 tax return. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Do you have a copy ? 

]Mr. Gioe. It is under subpena by this auditor. 

]Mr. RoBixsox. He gave you a copy ? 

Mr. GioE. He gave me a penciled copy. 

Mr. RoBixsox. The penciled copy of income tax, 1941, and 1942, 
exhibit No. 17. 

The Chairmax. Let it be filed and made a part of the record. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What else do you have ? 

Mr. Gioe. This is for 1949, 1 believe. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Tax return for 1948, exhibit No. 18, and a tax return 
for 1949, a copy thereof, exhibit No. 19. 

Tlie Chairmax. It will be made a part of the record. 

(Exhibits No. 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19 were returned to witness 
after analysis by the committee.) 

Mr. RoBixsox. Are these all the records that you have ? 

Mr. Gioe. Those are the only ones I could get at this time. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Does your auditor have all the other records ? 



76 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. GiOE. He claims lie doesn't have 1943 or 1940, and I couldn't 
remember at the time just who filed the 1940 record. 

Mr. EoBiNSOx. Do you have any other records that are called for 
by the subpena in any other place other than your own possession or in 
Mr. Shaeffer's possession ? 

Mr. GiOE. None, sir ; I don't believe. 

Mr. Robinson. You have made a search for those ? 

Mr. GioE. Well, I didn't have much time. I was notified that 
morning to get the records and come on down here, so I just went 
to my bookkeeper in my office and had him get the stuff. I tried to 
get 1941, 1942, but all I could get is 1942 from him. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Mr. Chairman, might I suggest that the witness 
be instructed to make such a search to see whether or not he has any 
other records in any other place, and that they be delivered ? _ 

The Chairman. Mr. Gioe, you make a search and see if you can 
find the records. Mr. Eobinson will be in touch with you, and fol- 
low his instructions by delivering the records to him. 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You are at the present time a parolee or you are 
released from the penitentiary ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. In connection with the movie extortion case? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How old are you, Mr. Gioe ? 

Mr. Gioe. Forty-six. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you always been a resident of Chicago ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Wliat properties do you own? 

Mr. Gioe. Myself, I don't own any property. 

Mr. Robinson. You have no interest in any real estate ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any stocks or bonds ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you had since 1940 ? 

Mr. Gioe. I had an interest in a restaurant known as the Beach- 
combers, in Chicago. That was the last interest. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you have that interest? 

Mr. Gioe. I believe I sold it in 1942 or 1943. 

. Mr. Robinson. Do you have any books or records which show that 
interest ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you acquire it ? 

Mr. Gioe. I went into the business with these people at the begin- 
ning, at the inception of the business. I made the suggestion to operate 
that type of restaurant in Chicago. 

Mr. Robinson. Was it solely a restaurant ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have a gambling establishment in it? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any records to show that interest in the 
restaurant ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes ; I will have to get these people that have the restau- 
rant and get the back records up to the time that I was with them. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 77 

Mr. Robinson. Did you put money into it ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you invest in it ? 

Mr. GiOE. I believe it was 1939. I don't know whether it was $7,500 
or thereabouts. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have any agreement? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. With the other parties ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Written agreement ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't have a copy of that ? 

Mr. GioE. No. sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have a copy ? 

Mr. GiOE. I owned 17 percent of the stock. 

]Mr. Robinson. Do you have the shares of stock ? 

Mr. GioE. I had the shares of stock. 

Mr. Robinson. You disposed of it ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have any other interest in any business 
other than this one that you have just mentioned ? 

Mr. GiOE. Since what year? 

Mr. Robinson. Let us go back to the years prior to the time you 
went to prison. 

Mr. GioE. Well, I had a very small interest in the Seneca Hotel. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that interest ? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know if it was 1937 or 1938. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the amount of the interest ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I made $2,500 profit on the deal. I never knew 
just what extent my interest would be in there. I had some stock- 
holdings with Mr. Greenberg, of which I never knew the amount. 
A year later or 2 j-ears later, we sold out. I got $2,500 for my interest 
in it. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you put into it. 

Mr. GiOE. I think I bouo-ht $12,000 worth of stock. 

Mr. Robinson. $12,000 worth of stock? 

Mr, GiOE. I believe so. 

Mr. Robinson. Who asked you to buy the stock? 

Mr. GiOE. Mr. Greenberg. 

Mr. Robinson, How long have you known him ? 

Mr, GiOE. I would say 15 or 16 years. 

Mr. Robinson. And you made a $2,500 profit? 

Mr. GioE, That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. And you sold the stock when ? 

Mr, GioE. I believe it was 1939. 

Mr. Robinson. 1939 ? 

Mr. GiOE. I am not too sure about the years. One of my tax returns 
here may show it. I made $2,500 on the investment. 

Mr, Robinson, Is that the only investment you ever made ? 

Mr, GioE. With Mr. Greenberg? 

Mr. Robinson. No. Anywhere else outside of the one you men- 
tioned about the restaurant. 

Mr, GiOE, If I made any others, it was very small. 

Mr. Robinson. All right. 



78 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. What about the construction company. Are you 
not a partner in that ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that since you have been on parole? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you first go into that? 

Mr. GioE. April of 1949. 

Mr. Robinson. AVho owns that company? 

Mr. GioE. We are partners, Pantaleo and myself. 

Mr. Robinson. Spell it. 

Mr. GioE. P-a-n-t-a-1-e-o. 

Mr. Robinson. Who is he ? 

Mr. GiOE. He just came out of the JSIarines, and he was a combat 
engineer, and he didn't have any money, and he spoke to me about 
gonig into business. I knew the construction business, so I went with 
him. 

Mr. Robinson. How^ much did you put up ? 

Mr. GioE. $5,000. 

Mr. Robinson. Where did you get that? 

Mr. GioE. I had some money. 

Mr. Robinson. Was that out of your savings? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. And you are a partner with him in that business? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the value of that business? 

Mr. GiOE. I think 

Mr. Robinson. Is it a corporation? 

Mr. GioE. No; it is a partnership. I imagine I have about, it is 
worth to me about eleven or twelve thousand dollars. 

Mr. Robinson. Steel construction business? 

Mr. GiOE. No; construction. We ]ust construct anything that you 
want. 

Mr. Robinson. How many people do you employ? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say we have about 10,000. 

Mr. Robinson. Had you previous experience in that business ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you get into it ? 

Mr. GiOE. I met this Pantaleo and as I told you, I have known him 
since he was a youth. He just came out of the Marines and he w^as 
in the combat engineers, and he had started this business himself. He 
didn't have enough money. He thought with a little more money he 
could develop and take on more work. So at the time I just been 
released the second time from the penitentiary, and I thought that the 
opportunity was all right, and I went in with this lad. 

Mr. Robinson. This was in 1949? 

Mr. GioE. 1949. 

Mr. Robinson. What have you built since you have been in business ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, we finislied one outdoor theater in Elgin, 111., and 
are biulding one now in Blue Island, 111. We worked for the parks, 
board of trade, the Cradle Society in Evanston. We remodeled a 
building for them. And a number of jobs like that. 

Mr. Robinson. Since 1949, how much profit have vou made ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, the first year I think we made about $5,600. Right 
now we are about fourteen or fifteen thousand ahead. This year so 
far 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE: 79 

Mr. Robinson. Have you had a distribution of profit? 

Mr. GiOE. No, because the more you expand the business, the more 
money you need, and I have kept the money in there. 

Mr. Robinson. "Wliat do you get. out of the business, a salary ? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't take any salary, I have a drawing account. If 
J want money, I draw it. 

Mr. Robinson. I see. How much do you usually draw ? 

Mr. GiOE. I haven't drawn any. 

Mr. Robinson. AVhat do you live on ? 

Mr. GiOE. I have some money. 

Mr, Robinson, Where do you have it ? 

Mr, GioE, Well, I have got some put away. 

The Chairman, We are not trying to get your money, but we want 
to know where you keep your money and how much you have got, 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I don't know 

The Chairman, There is no use in hesitating. You can tell use or 
else. 

Mr. GiOE. I don't even knoAv 

The Chairman, How much money have you got and where have 
you got it ? 

Mr, GiOE. I don't have too much money. 

Mr. Robinson. That was not the question, Wliere is the money ? 

Mr. GiOE, Well, there is some money in the safe at the office, at the 
hotel, and my wife's account in the bank, 

Mr, Robinson, What is the amount of your wife's account in the 
bank ? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say maybe offhand 7 or 8 thousand dollars. 

Mr, Robinson, What is the amount in the safe at the hotel ? 

Mr, GiOE. I would say maybe 3 or 4 thousand dollars, 

Mr, Robinson, Where else do you have it? 

Mr, GiOE. Personally myself I don't know, 

Mr. Robinson. You mean you don't Iniow where your money is ? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't have much. Well, I got $5,000 in the business that 
I originally bought. 

Mr. Robinson. You have got how much at the hotel safe ? 

Mr. GiOE, Yes, I say I think I got 3 or 4 thousand 

Mr. Robinson. Let us get it all out individually and locate it, $5,000 
in the business. 

Mr. GiOE. Yes; $5,000 in the business. 

Mr. Robinson. How much in your wife's bank account? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say that there is $7,000. I am not too sure, 

Mr. Robinson. That is close enough. How much in the safe in the 
hotel? 

Mr, GiOE, I would say $3,000, 

Mr. Robinson. How much at some other place? 

Mr, GiOE. I don't have any other place, 

Mr. Robinson, That is the only place? 

Mr, GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You have no drawing account — you have no salary 
from the business ? 

Mr, GiOE, No, sir. It is there ; if I want it, I take it, 

Mr. Robinson. That is not what I am asking. How much do you 
draw out ^f the business ? 

Mr, GiOE. I haven't drawn anything. 



80 -ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Where do you draw the money to live on ? 

Mr. GioE. I don't need much to live on. My wife pays the expenses. 

Mr. Robinson. You live at the Seneca Hotel ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How much do you pay there ? 

Mr. GiOE. $175 a month. 

Mr. Robinson. Where do you get the money ? 

Mr. GiOE. My wife pays it. She has two restaurants. 

Mr. Robinson. All right. \Yliere are the restaurants located? 

Mr. GiOE. One is located at Ogden Avenue and one at Damon and 
Lawrence. 

Mr. Robinson. How much does she make out of that ? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say about seven or eight thousands dollars a year. 

Mr. Robinson. And on that you and your wife live ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I mean she is paying the expenses. 

Mr. Robinson. She is paying everything ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes ; she pays the hotel bills and everything. 

Mr. Robinson. And you have no other income from any other 
source ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Wliat do you do with your spare time? 

Mr. GiOE. I am working in this business. 

The Chairman. You spend some time out there ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes. I am instrumental in getting some of that business. 

Mr. Robinson. You came out of the penitentiary in 1947 ? 

Mr. GiOE. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson, You went into this business in 1949. 

Mr. GioE. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. You put $5,000 in it. 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have that $5,000 in some box somewhere or 
in a hotel safe ? 

Mr. GiOE. No ; we sold a piece of property that my wife had, and I 
took the $5,000 from there. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you wife get that property ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, we bought a home in 1935 and we sold it. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you sell it ? 

Mr. GioE. Last year. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you make on that ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I think it was maybe $4,000. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for the house ? 

Mr. GiOE. $13,000. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you and your wife have some other property 
somewhere ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Does your wife have any stocks or bonds? 

Mr. GioE. Not tliat I know of, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. ^Vliat did you do from 1947 to 1949? 

Mr. GiOE. I worked for the Consolidated Wire. 

Mr. Robinson. Doing what ? 

Mr. Gios. I worked as assistant to the manager. 

Mr. Robinson. What is that business? 

Mr. GiOE. Consolidated Wire, a wire business. 

Mr. Robinson. Not a wire-service business. 



i 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 81 

Mr. GiOE. No. He is the man tluit sponsored my parole for the job. 
Consolidated. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Who is the man ? 

Mr. GiOE. Paul Mann. 

Mr. EoBiNsox. Has he always been in that business ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir: for 40 years. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you work for him before? 

Mr. GiOE. Xo, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsoN. How did you happen to know him ? 

Mr. GiOE. Just casually around the restaurant. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Now, what businesses were you in prior to the time 
you went into the penitentiary ^ 

Mr. GiOE. Prior to the time I was with the Beachcomber and I had 
an interest. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Is that a restaurant? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox. And a bookie place. 

Mr. GiOE. Xo; that is not a bookie place. The Beachcomber res- 
taurant that I spoke of. 

Mr. RoBixsox. That is the one vou had an interest in ? 

Mr. GiOE. That is right. ] . . 

Mr. RoBixsox. What other activities did you engage in? 

Mr. GiOE. I had a cigar store at Clark and Lake. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How long did you have that ? 

Mr. GiOE. Approximately 2 years. 

Mr. RoBixsox. When did j^ou buy it ? 

Mr. GiOE. We opened it. We didn't buy it. We took a store and 
fitted it out. 

Mr. RoBixsox. When did vou do that? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say 1940 or 1941. 

Mr. RoBiNsox. And you sold it ? 

Mr. GiOE. Xo; when I went to jail, I just disbanded it. I broke the 
thing up in October 1943. 

Mr. RoBixsox. AVere you in there yourself in that business ? 

Mr. GiOE. Xo, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Who was in with j"ou ? 

Mr. GiOE. Mai Clark. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Who was he? Was he always in that business or 
some other business? 

Mr. GiOE. That is all I know about him. 

Mr. RoBixsox. You did have an interest in that business? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Were there anv others that you had an interest in? 

Mr. GiOE. Prior to that? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. Yes. I was in business with Ralph Pearce and the two 
Russell brothers. 

Mr. Robinson. And what years were you in business with them? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say it was 1937 to 1940. 

Mr. Robinson. That was a partnership ? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. What sort of places ? 

Mr. GiOE. We had an office on State Street in which we handled 
some laj^-offs on horses on the books around the city at that time. 



82 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson, That was for what years, now? 

Mr. GioE. I \toiild say it was 1937 to 1940. 

Mr. Robinson. What business were yon in prior to 1937? 

Mr. GiOE. Prior to 1937 I fooled around witli the printino- business, 
but we didn't do hny good. Before that I didn't liave anytliing out- 
side of the printing, I believe. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the last time you saw Russell? 

Mr. (tioe. Harry Russell? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. Oh, it has been a long time ago. I saw him one time 
on Randolph Street when I came out on parole. 

Mr. Robinson. You have seen him off and on when you came out on 
parole? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. I just ran across him one time on Randolph 
Street. 

Mr. Robinson. How about David Russell ? 

Mr. GiOE. I have not seen him. 

Mr. Robinson. The other partner was who, Ralph Pearce? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How often do you see him ? 

Mr. GiOE. I have not seen him. I saw him one time on Van Buren 
and State Street. 

Mr. Robinson. Who are your friends there at the Seneca Hotel? 
You still live there, don't you? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Who are your friends there ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I have 

Mr. Robinson. Who are the people you visit back and forth with 
at the hotel, you and your wife? 

Mr. GiOE. I have a sponsor who lives in the building, Louis Pelton. 

Mr. Robinson. Who are some of the others ? 

Mr. GiOE. Sidney Korshak. 

Mr. Robinson. Who else ? 

Mr. GiOE, Well, Mr. Greenberg lives in the building, but I don't 
see him. 

Mr. Robinson. Where is he ? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know. I understand he is in Europe. 

Mr. Robinson. Who else? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Robinson. Who else do you and your wife visit back and forth 
with at the hotel ? 

Mr. GioE. Lincoln Plant. 

Mr. Robinson. Anyone else? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Those are the only people that you have associated 
with since you have gotten out on parole ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You are sure of that? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you know Al Capone ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you first meet him ? 

Mr. GiOE. Very casually. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 83 

Mr. Robinson. Describe it. Give the time and place and circum- 
stances under which you met him. 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I saw him on Twenty-second Street, that is all. 
At the Midnight Frolics, a cafe. I believe it was that name, then. 

Mr. Robinson. "V\^ien? 

Mr. GiOE. That would be 1931. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember that occasion very well? 

Mr. GiOE. No. It is the first time I ever saw him. 

Mr. Robinson. Who introduced him to you ? 

Mr. GiOE. Nobod3^ 

Mr. Robinson. How did he know you ? 

Mr. GiOE. He didn't know me. You asked me if I knew Al Capone. 

]Mr. Robinson. Yes. You didn't meet him ? 

Mr. GioE, No; I never had any dealings with him. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever meet him ? 

Mr. GiOE. No ; I just saw him at the cafe. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any conversation ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Murray Humphreys ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Where did you meet him ? 

Mr. GiOE. I believe he at one time had a place at a club tliat was 
in the same area. 

Mr. Robinson. A bookie place? 

Mr. GiOE. No ; it was not a bookie place. It was a speakeasy. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he ever have any bookie places ? 

Mr. GiOE. Not that I know of. 

i\Ir. Robinson. How about Hymie Levin, do you know him ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

jNIr. Robinson. Where is he living? 

Mr. GioE. He lives on Chestnut Street. 

Mr. Robinson. Not at the Seneca Hotel ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir ; they are directly across. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I would say I know Hymie 14 years or so. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you seen him since you got out on parole ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Sam Hunt ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. GiOE. Approximately the same time. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have any business connection with him? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. GioE. We went to school together. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Have you ever been in business with him ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. What business was he in ? 

Mr. GioE. One time he was connected with the Okay Motor Service, 

Mr. Robinson. Is that the only business that you know that he 
was in ? 

Mr. GiOE. No. 



84 ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Tell some of the others that he was in. 

Mr. GiOE. He had an interest with the Russell brothers in a different 
location. 

Mr. Robinson. Ralph Pearce, too? 

Mr. GioE. I don't know about Rali)h. Ralph, I knew, had an 
interest in the office with me. 

Mr. Halley. When you say he had an interest with the Russell 
brothers, you mean in their bookmakin^ business; is that right? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes. They had a book down the street — I forget, I 
think it is on Lake and Wabash. 

Mr. Halley. And he was in the bookmaking business with the 
Russell brothers ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was that at a different time from when you were in 
the bookmaking business with the Russell brothers ? 

Mr. GiOE. That was a different type. He was in the room when I 
had a piece of the office. You see, we had an office on State Street. 
Accardo was a partner of the Russels in this room on Lake and 
Wabash. 

Mr. Halley, What happened in the office ? What kind of bookmak- 
ing operations did you have there ? 

Mr. GiOE. We would take some lay-offs. 

Mr. Halley. From whom w^ould you take the lay-offs? 

Mr. GiOE. Various books throughout the city. 

Mr. Halley. Who were some of the people ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, we used to go usually by addresses, Joe Haas and 
Frank Ryan. There were quite a few books at that time and they 
would call in and give you a 10-, 20-, or 50-dollar bet. 

Mr. Halley. What sort of a business did they do in the room down 
where Accardo was in the business ? 

Mr. GiOE. It was open to the bettors on the floor. 

Mr. Halley. Was it in the same building ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Where was that located ? 

Mr. Gioe. On Lake and Wabash. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

The Chairman. What other business did the Russell brothers have? 

Mr. Gioe. They were in the tavern business, Senator. I believe 
Dave had a place on Madison Street, and Harry, I think, had an in- 
terest in what they call the Russell Silver Bar on Van Buren Street. 
I understand he sold out his interest a few years after the war. 

The Chairman. What else did they have an interest in ? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Was Harry Russell a well-known gambler in 
Chicago ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, he was. He was a bookmaker. 

The Chairman. Was he arrested a number of times ? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't believe so. 

The Chairman. Wliat other name did he go by ? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't know. I know his family name, but I can't think 
of it offhand. I guess he changed his name to Russell. 

The Chairman. His name is really not Russell ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes ; I know he has a Jewish name, but I can't remember 
what it was. 



J 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE CX)MMERCE 85 

Mr. Halley. While we are on the subject, where did you get your 
wire service? 

Mr. GiOE. At the time ? 

]Mr. Halley, Yes. 

Mr. GioE. I don't know. Russell handled that. I think it was the 
one that Annenberg had. That was the only wire service, I believe, at 
the time. 

]\Ir, Halley. The Continental Service? 

Mr. GioE. If it was Annenberg, I don't know what the name of his 
company was. 

Mr. Halley. Nation-wide. 

]Mr. GiOE. The one Annenberg had. 

The CiiAiRMAx. Were Russell and Annenberg good friends? 

Mr. GiOE. Supposedly. 

The Chairman. How about Levin ? Was he a fellow up in the wire 
service ? 

Mr. Robinson. Hymie Levin. 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, I spoke of him, but I didn't know anything about his 
wire service. 

The Chairman. Was he not in the same wire service ? 

Mr. GioE. No ; not at the time. If he followed, he followed later on. 

The Chairman. Were he and Russell good friends? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know how close they were. They knew each 
other. 

The Chairman. How do you know they knew each other? 

Mr. GioE. Just by conversation, because he would call up and call 
in a bet ever}^ now and then. Hvmie Levin. 

The Chairman. That was back in 1940 ? 

IVIr. GiOE. I would say 1940, thereabouts, maybe all the way back 
to '37, '38, '39. 

The Chairman. What happened to Russell ? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Eddie O'Hare? 

Mr. GiOE. Eddie O'Hare ; no sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Hugo Bennett ? 

Mr. GiOE. Who? 

Mr. Halley. Hugo Bennett. 

]\Ir. GiOE, No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do j^ou know Bill Johnston, Sportsmen's Park? 

Mr. GiOE. I know who he is, but I don't have any 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him ? 

IMr. GiOE. I met him very casually. 

Air. Halley. Did you ever meet him with Russell ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or with Ralph Pearce? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 
_ Mr. Robinson. I didn't get the answer clear to Mr. Halley's ques- 
tion. Were you in business with the Russells and Pearce at the same 
time that Accardo was in business with them ? 

Mr. Gioe. No. The place was called Russell, Russell, Pearce and 
Gioe. We filed a tax i-eturn under that name. We took lay-off from 
different books. At that time Accardo was with Russell in a book 
down tlie street. 

Mr. Robinson. At the same time. 



86 ORGANIZED CRi:\IEi IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. GiOE. Yes; but it was two different operations. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you just take bets from places in Chicago? 

Mr. GioE. Oh, we got some business from out of town. 

ISIr. RoBixsox. AYhere? 

Mr. GiOE. "Well, Kansas City, Omaha, Indiana. Michigan. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Will you name some of the people you got bets, 
from those areas ? 

Mr. GiOE. There was one that came that we used to do exchange 
business — Eddie Berrick. They were doing business with that 
office. I didn't know Mr. Berrick at that time. I knew we were 
doing business with that office. Russell being in this business had 
what they called outlets. If you wanted to get rid of some money, 
you called up the outs. That is what they called an "out." He 
would call up different places. If the bet was too much, and he 
wanted to move something, he moved it to these different bookmakers. 

Mr. RoBixsox. That takes care of Omaha ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How about Kansas City? 

Mr. GiOE. At that time he was doing business with Tonv Gizzo and 
Carollo. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you say he was doing business? 

Mr. GiOE. Russell's office. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Weren't you doing business with them, too? 

Mr. GioE. But I wasn't too familiar with the business at that time- 
Mr. RoBixsox. He was the man doing it i 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox. You had an interest in the business but he was 
managing it. 

]Mr. GioE. That is right. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Who else in Kansas City? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know anybody else. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How about St. Louis? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know who he did business in St. Louis ? 

Mr. RoBixsox. What was the other city you named I 

jSIr. GiOE. Xew York. 

Mv. RoBixsox. Who in New York ? 

]Mr. GiOE. I can't think of the fellow's name. I don't know if he- 
had any connection at that time with Erickson's office. They used tO' 
make layoffs in Xew York for the New York tracks. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did j^ou do any business with Erickson to your 
knowledge ? 

Mv. GiOE. No ; I wouldn't say to it, 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did j'ou get any business from Erickson ? 

Mv. GiOE. There was an office over there that I thought Erickson 
might have been interested in at the time. Some fellow Green was 
running the operation. I think Mr. Erickson might have been con-^ 
nected with that outfit at that time. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How about Costello ? 

Mr. GioE. I never heard of him being connected with him. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Do you know him ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Well, what are the other cities now ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well. Cincinnati, he was doing business with somebody,, 
but I wouldn't remember the name. I remember we called different 
places throughout the country. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 87 

Mr. RoBiNsox. How about Florida ? 

Mr. GiOE. We done business with Hialeah race track ri<>ht with the 
track. 

Mr. Robinson. Any of the hotels down there? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. " 

Mr. Robinson. That is the only one you can remember in Florida 
just the track ? ' ' 

Mr. GiOE. That is right. We used to take the bet right into the 
track. 

The Chairman. How about the S. and G. in Florida, did you do 
business with them? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You did not know anything about that ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Who was the one up in the New England area? 

Mr. GiOE. I never 

Mr. Robinson. Nobody in Boston ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. I didn't know any. 

Mr. Robinson. Well, can you think of any other areas ? How about 
Caiiiornia ? 

Mr. GioE. No; I never knew of anybody that did business there 

Mr. Robinson. How about Indiana, out around Gary? 

Mr, GioE. No. ■ 

lilr^ Robinson. Did you have any business from a place called the 
Big House ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. William Sheetz ? 

Mr. GioE. Not at that time, I don't believe. 

Mr. Robinson. Any other time ? 

Mr GioE. I am only going up to that time because it was the 
only time I was m it. 

Mr. Robinson. Hoav about William Gardner? 

Mr. GioE. No. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know either one of them? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr' Gme'^No " ^"^ "^ ""'' '^""'''^ ^'^""^ """-^ ""^^'^'^ P^""®"^'' "' Indiana? 

Mr. Robinson. How about Louisville ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. And nobody in California? 

Mr. GioE. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Jack Drawna? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. * 

Mr. Robinson. John Roselli ? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How about him ? 

Mr. GioE. Johnny done time with me. 

Mr. Robinson. You did business with him from 1937 to 1940?- 

Mr. GiOE. In horses? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Never? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mi\ Robinson. Do you know Roy Jones ? 



88 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

;Mr. GioE. I have heard of him but I don't know him. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you know Ragen? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Or Pat Burns ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. McBride? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. None of them ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How long did you know Nitti ? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say about 10 years. 

Mr. Robinson. What was your association with him? 

Mr. GiOE. Nothing, just that I met him around the old man's cigar 
store at that time over on Clark Street, Alderman Kenny's place. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you get tied up with him in this movie 
business ? 

Mr. GioE. I was never tied up in the movie business. 

Mr. Robinson. You were not tied up with Nitti in any way? 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You never saw him ? 

Mr. GiOE. I never saw or had anything to do with it. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known Campagna ? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say approximately the same time. 

Mr. Robinson. And you have done business with him ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Had you been in business with him ? 

ISIr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You were never in the gambling business with him? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. What business was he m ? 

Mr. GiOE. Campagna? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know what business he was in ? 

Mr. GiOE. He was out of Cicero. That is some place I never went to. 
I knew he had a couple of saloons at the time. 

]Mr. Robinson. You say he had a couple of saloons? 

Mr. GiOE. He had an interest in some of those places in Cicero at 
the time. 

JSIr. Robinson. Now, 1937 to 1940, you were in partnership with 
Pearce and the two Russells. 

INIr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you put into that ? 

Mr. GiOE. Not very much money. I went out and solicited the 
accounts and got some business for them. That was all I was inter- 
ested in at the time. 

ISIr. Robinson. Who did you solicit ? 

Mr. GiOE. Various bettors. 

Mr. Robinson. Well, who were some of them, some of the larger 
ones ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, at that time there were quite a few of the ]5laces 
around town, and I would go over there and talk to soniebody if I hap- 
pened to know somebody and asked about the lay-otl business. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 89 

Mr. RoBiNsox. Did you solicit Eicca ? 

JMr. GiOE. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Can't you think of any of the names ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, there was Dobkin. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Peter Tremont? 

Mr. (tioe. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever solicit him ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Dobkin is known as a rather large commissioner. 

Mr. (tioe. At that time he wasn't doing too much business. Joe 
Grabner. Oscar Gutter. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Harry Siganski ? Did you ever do any 
business with him ? 

Mr. Gioe. Harry Siganski ? 

Mr. Robinson. Doc Siganski. 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. I cannot place the name at all. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you say you put into this business, this 
partnership ? 

Mr. GiOE. I wouldn't say it was very much. 

]Mr. Robinson. How much ? 

Mr. GiOE. I wouldn't even remember the figure offliand. It could 
not have been more than $1,000 or $2,000. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did Russell put in ? 

INIr. Gioe. I really don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did Pearce put in ? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't know how much he put in. 

Mr. Robinson. You were in partnership ? 

]\Ir. Gioe. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You didn't have an agreement. 

Mr. Gioe. The Russell brothers put up the bankroll. 

Mr. Robinson. And you got in for $1,000 ? 

Mr. Gioe. A couple of thousand. 

Mr. Robinson. How did that come about? How could you get in 
with just $1,000? 

Mr. Gioe. We were only booking on a small scale. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't it grow into a larger scale ? 

Mr. Gioe. We did some volume. 

Mr. Robinson. Let us take up the volume. How much volume of 
business would you do ? 

Mr. Gioe. Maybe some days we would do 3,000, some days 2,500, 
some days we might do 3,500. 

Mr. Robinson. How much would you do every year? 

Mr. Gioe. Well, I couldn't give you that. If I could get the sheets 
at the time 

Mr. Robinson. Was that normal, two or three thousand dollars a 
day? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes. Sometimes we would have five or six thousand dol- 
lars on a Saturday, stake races, and people would bet heavier on stake 
races. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you get out of it ? 

Mr. Gioe. 25 percent. 

Mr. Robinson. 25 percent ? 

^Ir. Gioe. Of the winnings. 

68958 — 51— pt. 5 — —7 



90 ORGANIZED CRIMB IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. How was the rest of it split? 

Mr. GiOE. The same way. ■ . ^ i 

Mr. Robinson. You got 25 percent of the winnings lor a thousand 
dollar investment ? r^ ■ ■ ^^ 

Mr. GiOE. For the small investment, I had 25 percent. Originally 
I started out I got some of the business, I got a piece of that and then 
they declared me on the whole thing rather than keep separate books. 
It was like 50-50 book where you get 50 percent of the winnings back. 

Mr. Robinson. Well, how much would you get out of that annually 
for your 25 percent ? How much would that amount to ? 

Mr. GiOE. It was never too much. I got seven or eight thousand 
dollars, I believe. Six, seven, or eight thousand dollars. 

Mr. Robinson. A year? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. That is all you got out of it ^ , , , 

Mr. GioE. That is all I got out of it. That is all the books show. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you do some betting individually yourself? 

Mr. GiOE. Very little. 

Mr. Robinson. So your total income for those years would run 
about six, seven, or eight thousand dollars a year from 1937 to 1940? 

Mr. GiOE. It might have been a little more than that. 

Mr Robinson. How much did Harry Russell get out of it? 

Mr. GiOE. Harry Russell would bet beside booking. I wouldn t 

Mr! Robinson. You don't know how much he got out of it? 

Mr. GiOE. I wouldn't know what he won betting. 

Mr. Robinson. Out of the business. 

Mr. GiOE. That is what I mentioned. I thought it ran around 

$7,000. . 

Mr. Robinson. That each one of you got out ^ 

Mr. GioE. I believe so, yes. But he was a bettor. By that I mean, 
if he thought the horse was any good, he would bet $500 or $200 or 

$300 

Mr. Robinson. You have been identified with the Capone syndicate, 

isn't that right? ^ . -j .-^ 

Mr. GioE. The newspapers identified or whoever wants to identity 

Mr. Robinson. You say you never have been associated with them 
or done business with them' or been friendly with them ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I know a lot of them, but what you call the Capone 
syndicate 

Mr. Robinson. You say you know a lot of them. 

Mr. GioE. I mean the people you mention. You call them a syndi- 
cate. ' You say I was associated with the syndicate. 

Mr. Robinson. You said you knew a lot of them. Wlio are they i 

Mr. GioE. These names tliat you mentioned, you asked about Mur- 
rav Humphreys. I know these people. 

Mr. Robinson. You associate them with the Capone syndicate i 

Mr. GiOE. I don't associate anybody with any syndicate. 

The Chairman. How about Ralph Capone, do you know him? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir; very casually. 

The Chairman. How casually? 

Mr. GioE. I just know him to see him. I never had anything to do 
with him. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COIVIMETICE 91 

Mr. Hallet. "Were you born in Chicago? 
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Halley. How old are you? 
Mr. GiOE. Forty-six. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first met Al Capone? What year? 
Mr. GiOE. I would say it was in the early thirties. 
Mr. Halley. What were you doing at the time ? 
Mr. GiOE. I was in the printing business and I was trying to sell 
some tickets to the bookmakers. 

Mr. Halley. In what printing business were you ? 
Mr. GiOE. We called it a general ticket. 
Mr. Halley. Who else was in the business ? 
Mr. GiOE. There was Creighton, a Frank Kelly, O'Brien. 
Mr. Halley. Did you have any other business at that time? 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was that your first business or had you had any other 
business before that? 
Mr. Gioe. No business. 

Mr. Halley. You said you went to school with Tony Accardo ? 
Mr. Gioe. Yes, we were born in the same neighborhood and went 
to school together. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you go to school together ? 
Mr. Gioe. The Washington School. 
Mr. Halley. Did you continue to see him after that? 
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And what did he do when he got out of school ? 
Mr. GioE. I don't know. He went to work for a wholesale grocer. 
His father had a shoe shop, and he was Avith his father. 

Mr. Halley. He went to work with Al Capone for a while. 
Mr. Gioe. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Halley. He was in the liquor business with him. 
Mr. Gioe. If you know that, I don't. 
Mr. Halley. 'You don't know that? 
Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you see him during those days right after you 
got out of school ? "^ 

Mr. Gioe. No ; I would see him on and oif. 

Mr. Halley. I am trying to find out how you met all these people. 

How did you happen to meet Al Capone. You say you were in the 

printmg busmess. Could anybody in the printing business walk up 

to Al Capone? ^ 

Mr. Gioe. No. There was no Capone in the printing business. 

Mr. Halley. How did you get to meet him? 

Mi\ Gioe. I told you in the early thirties I saw him at this cafe 
that I made mention of. 
Mr. Halley. ^Vliat cafe? 

Mr. Gioe. The Frolics on Twenty-second Street. 
Mr. Halley. What were you doing there ? 
Mr. Gioe. I was cafe-ing." 
Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Capone ? 
Mr Gioe. I M'as not introduced to him. I just saw him. In them 
days he was around every night. When he asked me about Capone, 
1 said yes, I knew him. 



92 ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Were you around there every night? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. n, . i • o 

Mr. Halley. When did yon first meet liim to talk to hun^ 

Mr. GiOE. I don't ever remember ever having talked to hnn. 

Mr. Halley. You never met him at all ? 

Mr GiOE. No; I just saw him around the place. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever talk to Al Capone ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. . vi i • 9 

Mr. Halley. Never had a conversation of any kind witli liim « 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. . „ ,,^ -, ■ ' v 

Mr. Halley. Never said, "Good morning, ' "Good evening, or 

"Hello, Mr. Capone"? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. i * 1 r. 9 

Mr Halley. No talk at all between you and Al Capone? 
Mr. Gioe. No, no conversation. All I ever saw him was m that ca±e. 
Mr Halley. When did you first meet Paul Ricca ? ^ , . , .^ 
Mr". Gioe. Ricca had a restaurant at the Blue Grotto, I think it was 
called, and 1 would say that was maybe 1934 or 1035. 
Mr. Halley. 1934 or 1935? 

Mr. Gioe. I would say earlier than that, I believe. 
Mr. Halley. Was it a speakeasy? . 

Mr. Gioe. I believe it was before prohibition. 
Mr. Halley. He sold liquor? 

Mr Gioe. It was a restaurant, and he told liquor and wines. 
Mr' H\LLEY. Where was the Blue Grotto located? 
Mr*. Gioe. At Wabash and Congress or Van Buren. 
Mr Halley. How did you first meet Ricca ? , 

Mr. Gioe. I just met him at the restaurant down there. -1 

Mr Halley. Who introduced you? 

Mr. Gioe. Well, you meet people and not necessarily througli in- 
troductions. ^ T 1 /-.I • 1 ^4. 
Mr Halley. You seem to have wandered around Chicago and got 
to^know a lot of people and you don't seem to make it clear how you 
met anybody. Did you meet Ralph Capone ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, just casually. ^^ ^ ^ ^ . ^ . 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever talk to Ralph Capone ( 

Mr. Gioe. No, I doirt believe so. 

Mr. Halley. You never talked to him ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, I never had anything to do with him. 

Mr. Halley. You never said hello? n n 1 ^t 

Mr. Gioe. You are trying to pin me down to say hello, but 1 never 

had anything to do . 1 ^^ 

Mr. HallSy. I am not trying to pm you down. Did you know 

Ralph Capone or didn't you ? 

Mr Gioe. I would say I didn't know him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know him well enough to greet him and to 
have him Gfreet you? , ,, ,. 

Mr Gioe Well, if I have seen Ralph Capone maybe three times 
in my whole life, or what was supposed to be Ralph Capone, it is the 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever introduced to him ? 
Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Never ? , „ ,, ^. 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir, not to the best of my recollection. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 93 

.INIr. Halley. How did you first meet Plarry Russell ? 

Mr. GiOE. Ralph Pearce told me about this proposition. 

Mr. Halley. How did you first meet Ralph Pearce ? 

]Mr. GioE. I met him around Twenty-second Street when he was 
around with Sam and the rest of the lads. I think it was during 
prohibition. 

jNIr. Halley. Sam ? 

JSIr. Gioe. Sam Hunt. 

]\Ir. Halley. That is "Golf Bag*" Hunt, isn't it ? 

]\Ir. GiOE. Sam Hunt. 

Mr. Halley. They call him '"Golf Bag" Hunt, don't they ? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't know who does outside of the newspapers. 

Mr. Halley. Did the newspapers call him that ? 

Mr. Gioe. They refer to him as "Golf Bag." 

]\Ir. Halley. What do you mean you were all around Twenty-sec- 
ond Street ? That is very vague. What happened on Twenty-sec- 
ond Street? 

Mr. Gioe. Xothing. I told you I was in this printing business. I 
was trying to solicit some of these fellows to give us some of the 
business for the tickets. So I tried to contact whoever I knew would 
be influential or knew this fellow or that fellow and try to get some 
of the business. 

^Ir. Halley. Was Pearce one of the people you contacted ? 

Mr. Gioe. I believe so. 

Mr. Halley. How did 3'ou get to meet Pearce? Who introduced 
3"ou to him? 

Mr. Gioe. I wouldn't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Is it your testimony that you want this committee 
to believe that you Avere in the printing business and you just wandered 
around Chicago and tried to meet people and sell them tickets ? 

Mr. Gioe. I am not trying to avoid answering the question. I just 
can't think in my mind and say how did I meet this fellow^ and that. 

Mr. Halley. Did* j^ou ever belong to the Union Siciliano ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Never? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of it ? 

Mr. Gioe. It is a fraternal organization in Chicago. 

Mr. Halley. Where is it located ? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't know. At one time it was located at the Masonic 
Temple. 

Mr. Halley. On Washington Street? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. It was an insurance office. 

Mr. Halley. And had other purposes, too, didn't it? 

Mr. Gioe. Not that I know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever belong to it ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever belong to the Italo- American League? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Mafia? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What have you heard of it ? 

Mr. Gioe. What I read in the papers. 



94 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE CO^IMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not there is such an organi- 
zation as the Mafia from your own knowledge ? 

Mr. GioE. From my own knowledge, I know ot no such organiza- 

Mr. Hallet. Do you belong to any such organization? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. ... 

Mr Halley. Now, I wish you would state again the circumstances 
under which you were able to get a 25 percent interest m Harry Rus- 
sell's business for $2,000, or one or two thousand dollars. 

Mr. GiOE. I don't remember the exact figure. I said it was a couple 
of thousand dollars at the time. 

Mr Halley. That makes absolutely no sense at all. , 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I guess thev were just starting the business. This 
Ealph Pearce says, "Let us take a piece of this, what you call it, be- 
cause at that time we were soliciting for this ticket business for these 
books. I said, "All right, I will take a piece with you." We put up a 
little money and got some business for the office. 

Mr. Halley. When you went into the bookmakmg business did you 
go out of the ticket business? 

Mr. GiOE. We sold out to Bentley-Murray. 

Mr. Halley. What year did you sell out ? 

Mr. GiOE. 1934: or 1935. I am vague on that. n , ^o>r o 

Mr. Halley. What did you do for a living between 19o4 and 1937 i 

Mr. Gioe. I didn't do much of anything. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted of a crime 5 

Mr. Gioe. Yes. . 

Mr. Halley. You were convicted, of course, on the movie extortion 

case. 

Mr. Gioe. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you now admit your guilt in that case or do you 
still contend you were innocent? 

Mr. Gioe. I still contend I was innocent. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted of any other crime? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How many times were you arrested ? 

Mr. Gioe. Well, v;hat you call arrest, I was arrested maybe as far 
as I can remember five or six times. 

Mr. Halley. Could it be more ? 

Mr. Gioe. No. 

Mr. Halley. For what were you arrested ? 

Mr. Gioe. AVell, more or less for general pick-ups. I was never 
tried for a crime. 

Mr. Halley. You never were tried except in the extortion case i 

Mr. Gioe. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Between 1934 and 1937 you had no business at all i 

Mr. Gioe. 1934 and 1937. , . ■ . 

Mr. Halley. You said in 1937 you went into the bookmakmg busi- 
ness with Russell. 

Mr. Gioe. In 1937 I believe I was— in 1934 rather, or just belore 
that— prior to that I messed around with some alcohol during prohibi- 
tion. 

Mr. Halley. Let us hear about the messing around. 



I 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 95 

Mr. GiOE. I sold some to various customers who asked for it. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you buy it ^ 

Mr, GioE. I bought it from various places where they had poolrooms 
and places like that, where you made contact with the fellows that 
manufactured it. I bought it and resold it to some customer from 
out of town. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any partners in the alcohol business ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How much money had you accumulated when prohibi- 
tion went out, that is, at the time of repeal ? How much money had 
you accumulated !? 

Mr. GiOE. I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. Halley. Was it over $10,000 ? 

Mr. GioE. I couldn't say whether it was $10,000 or $15,000. 

Mr. Halley. Was it as much as $100,000? 

Mr. Gioe. No. 

Mr. Halley. You think you might have had $10,000? 

Mr. Gioe. I could have accumulated $10,000. 

The Chairman. Tell us your best estimate. 

Mr. Gioe. My best estimate would be that I maybe made seven or 
eight thousand dollars a year during prohibition or maybe $1,000. 

Mr. Halley. Who else messed around with alcohol. Was Tony 
Accardo one? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't know. I believe he was. But I wasn't doing any 
business with him. 

Mr. Halley. At that time did you know Ricca ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first meet Ricca ? 

Mr. Gioe. Ricca I met, I think, they were selling a bottle champagne, 
either he or somebody was connected with him, and I wanted to get 
some for the Christmas holidays, there was some market for it, and 
that is how I think I got to go to the Blue Grotto. 

Mr. Halley. You mean to buy champagne ? 

Mr. Gioe. It was synthetic champagne. 

Mr. Halley. This was before prohibition? 

Mr. Gioe. I would say it was around that time. 

Mr. Halley. You needed the champagne for your customers ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, for Christmas. Maybe I had a customer that 
wanted four or five cases. 

Mr. Halley. How much champagne would you say you bought 
from Ricca before prohibition was repealed? 

Mr. Gioe. Not much. 

Mr. Halley. AVould you ssij that the deals amounted to a couple 
of hundred dollars ? 

Mr. Gioe. Couple of hundred dollars. Well, I didn't do too much. 
If I picked up wine, it would be 5 or 10 cases, maybe a couple of times. 

]Mr. H * LLEY. You say 3'ou didn't deal with him ? 

Mr. Gioe. He had a partner by the name of Ralph something that 
used to handle the business at that time. 

Mr. Halley. Buglio? 

Mr. Gioe. No; it was not Buglio. The name does not register. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first meet Campagna ? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't know Mr. Campagna too well. It could have 
been around the same time, around the same years, say 1937, 1938, or 
something. 



96 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hallet. How did you meet Campagna ? 

Mr. GioE. Very vague in my mind how I came across him. 

Mr. Halley. You knew Phil D'Andrea. 

Mr. GiOE. He is one of the fellows convicted with us. 

Mr. Halley. AVlien did you first meet him ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, Phil was interested in politics around that first 
ward. I wouldn't say just when I met him, but he had some trucks 
that were working for the city and he Avas pretty active in first ward 
politics. 

Mv. Halley. Were you active in first ward politics? 

]\Ir. GiOE. Somewhat, not 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever run for political office? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What was your activity in the politics? 

Mr. GiOE. Nothing, nothing at all, whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. What party were you active with. Democrat or Repub- 
lican? ,. . 

Mv. GiOE. I was an opportunist. If a Republican was m power, 
I would ask him for favors, and if the Democrats were in power, I 
would see the Democrats. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever make any contributions? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir ; not to amount to anything. 

Mr. Halley. Did you contribute to one party or to the other or to 
both? 

Mr. GioE. No. 

Mr. Halley. No contributions at all ? 

Mr. GiOE. No. It could have been a very small thing, maybe $25 or 

Mr. Halley. During prohibition, then, you were handling a little 
liquor. 

Mv. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Then you went into the printing business. 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you do that when prohibition was repealed ? 

Mr. Gioe. No. We started that. I thought I saw where we might 
get lucky and get into this type of business and make some money, 
but it didn't pan out that way. 

Mr. Halley. Did you lose money on it ? 

Mr. GiOE. No ; we didn't make or lose too much money. 

Mr. Halley. When vou sold out in 1934. what was your share? 

Mr. Gioe. There were five partners in the business, but we owed so 
much money that the other company took it over and paid off the 
debts for us,' and took the company. 

Mr. Halley. What did you live on between 1934 and 1937 when you 
went into the betting business with Harry Russell ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, what did I live on? I did the best I could. I 
was never a large liver, 

Mr. Halley. When did you move into the Seneca Hotel i 

Mr. Gioe. I would say 1942. . 

Mr. Halley. Was it your wife who owned the stock m that, or you i 

Mr. Gioe. My wife. 

Mr. Halley. Who gave her the money to buy the stock i 

Mr. Gioe. I did. I gave Mr. Greenberg the money. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 97 

Mr. Hallet. How much money did you pay for the stock in the 
feeneca ? 
Mr. GiOE. I think it was around $12,000. 
Mr. Halley. When did you buy the stock ? 
Mr. GiOE. 1939 or 1910. ^ I believe that was the year. 

x^^^^;.-^-^^^^^'- ^^^l^ere did you live before you moved into the Seneca 
Hotel ? 

Mr. GiOE. 4300 Marine Drive. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you live there? 

Mr. GioE. About 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you live before that ? 

Mr. Gioe. Over in a place on the west side at Kedsey Boulevard 
and I can't think of the street that runs the other way. ' 

Mr. Halley. You had no means of earning a living as far as I can 
see between 1934'and 1937, is that right ? 

Mr. GiOE. I was trying to place what I was doing in 1934. 

Mr. Halley. You said you closed out the printing business. 

Mr. Gioe. In 1934 I lived in Iowa, I believe. 

Mr. Halley. What were you doing in Iowa ? 

Mr. Gioe. At that time we used to bring alcohol from Wisconsin to 
Iowa. 

Mr. Halley. Who did that? 

Mr. Gioe. Myself. 

Mr. Halley.^ Who else? 

Mr. Gioe. It was just the fellows that used to buy it. There was a 
leJlow by the name of Johnny who used to get the alcohol and send 
it down by one of his drivers. 

Mr Halley. Who gave you your protection during the prohibition 
days i Did you get that from the Capone syndicate ? 

Mr. Gioe. No protection from any Capone syndicate. 

Mr. Halley. You could not just go out and peddle liquor in Chicago 
without making peace with somebody. 

Mr. Gioe. I never had anv trouble. 

Mr. Halley. Did Vogel live at 4300 ^larine Drive, too? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't know whether he lived there before or after I did 

Mr. Halley. Did he live there ? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any other friends in that building? 

Mr. Gioe. At the time when I lived there I don't believe there was 
anybody living m there. There was Paul Mann living in the build- 
ing. That is the fellow who employed me. That is all I can 
remember. 

Mr. Halley. He isn't just the man that is a customer. He is a 
man 3^ou have known for some time. 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first meet Paul Mann ? 

Mr. Gioe. I knew him casually. I met him in the restaurant, iust 
like a customer that you get friendly with. 

Mr. Halley. In what restaurant? 

Mr. Gioe. The Beachcomber. 

Mr. Halley. When did you buy the stock in the Beachcomber? 

Mr. Gioe. We started that business. 

Mr. Halley. When did vou invest in the Beachcomber^ 

Mr. Gioe. I believe it was 1939 or 1940. 



98 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. How much money did you invest in that? 

Mr. GiOE. I will have to get the records. I could not tell you off- 
hand and be down to a figure. 

The Chairman. Tell us approximately. 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know what the thing cost. I promoted the thing. 
It hardly cost me anything, because I had the idea and I saw this 
Beachcomber and saw the operation there, and saw the location and 
made mention of it to Jacobson and Fitsell, if they like the location 
what they could do with it. They looked into it and thought it would 
be a good idea if we could get Beachcomber interested m it. He came 
down and I took a little interest in it. 

Mr. Halley. What percentage? 

Mr. GioE. Seventeen percent. 

Mr. Halley. That is not such a little interest, 17 percent. 

Mr. GiOE. Well, it was a restaurant that didn't cost too much to 

put up. „ ^ ^ ^ „ 

Mr. Halley. What did you pay for your 1 i percent i 
Mr GiOE. I don't know if it was $5,000, $7,000 or how much I 

put in there. I would have to get the records. You are taking me back 

quite a while. ,,^ .„ , i m ^.i, 

Mr. Halley. Let us go back to 1934. We will go back even further. 

You sold out the printing business. 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. , . ,. . . t f 

Mr. Halley. Then you were bootlegging liquor into Iowa ±rom 

Wisconsin. 

Mr. GioE. At the same time, I will say. 
Mr. Halley. How long did you do that? 

Mr. GioE. You mean how long did I 

Mr. Halley. Take liquor into Iowa. 

Mr. GioE. Oh, since maybe 1928. 

Mr. Halley. Since 1928? 

Mr. GioE. 1928 or 1929. . .i . -u • 9 

Mr. Halley. When did that end, when did you stop that business i 

Mr GioE. When prohibition went out of effect. _ _ 

Mr.' Halley. When you took liquor into Iowa, were you driving a 

truck ? 

Mr. GioE. No; automobile. 

Mr. Halley. You took automobile loads ? 

Mr. GioE. Yes. -, ,. q 

Mr. Halley. Where did you buy that liquor ? 

Mr GiOE. There was a place on Grand and Green, a few people 
around there that had it. In them days you could get as much as 
you want during prohibition. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Greenberg m those days i 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

:Mr. Halley. When did vou first meet Greenberg^ 

Mr. GiOE. I just don't remember when I first met Greenberg. 

Mr. Halley. Do you Imow the Fischettis ? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first meet him? 

Mr. Gioe. I did business with him about, I would say, 1937 or 1938. 

Mr. Halley. What kind of business ? 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 99 

Mr. GiOE. He liad a place on Wabash Avenue. 
Mr. Halle Y. What kind of a place did he have? 
Mr. GiOE. A horse book. 

Mr. Hallet. What kind of business did you do with him? 
Mr. Gioe. Over the telephone. 
Mr. Hallet. Lay-off business ? 
Mr. GiOE. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did he lay off with the Russells? 
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Charles Fischetti ? 
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long do you know him? 
Mr. Gioe. Api^roximately the same time. 
Mr. Halley. Did you ever do business with him ? 
Mr. GiOE. No : on the same basis. 
Mr. Halley. Do you know Anthony Capezio ? 

Mr. GiOE. He comes from my neighborhood on the west side. I 
never done any business with him. 

Mr. Halley. How long do you know him ? 

Mr. GiOE. I have known him quite a while just to know him. He 
came from my neighborhood. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go to school with him ? 
JMr. GiOE. No, sir, 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco DeGrazio ? 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Nicolo Impostato ? 
Mr. GioE. I didn't get the name. 
Mr. Halley. Impostato. 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 
Mr. Halley, You don't know him ? 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Antonelli ? 
Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Bello ? 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Let us go back now to this period between 1934 and 
193^. I am very much interested in finding out what you were doino- 
in that time. ^ 

Mr. GioE. W^ell 

Mr Halley. How long was it still profitable to run liquor into 
iowa « • 

Mr. GiOE. Around the end, when prohibition was repealed, there 
was a little market there for a while. I don't know if that ended in 
about 1935. 

Mr. Halley. Then what did vou do after 1935 ? 

Mr. GioE. I didn't do much of anything that I can remember at this 
time. 

Mr. Halley So for 2 or 3 years you had no business at all ? 

Mr GioE. f^o- I don't know whether I went in with the Russells 
the latter part of 1936 or 1937. It was around that time. 

Mr. Halley. How long were you out of work? 

Mr. GiOE. Well I was never out of work. I was always trying to 
do something, looking for something. ^ ^ » 



100 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. What were you trying to do? What would you say 
was your business at that time ? 

Mr. GioE. I went in with a fellow into the wrestling promotion 
business. 

Mr. Halley. With whom ? 

Mr. GioE. A fellow by the name of Pinkey George. 

Mr. Halley. How long? 

Mr. GiOE. I messed around with it for about a year. 

Mr. Halley. Did you make any money with it? 

Mr. GioE. No ; not too much money. 

Mr. Halley. What end were you in? Did you manage wrestlers i 

Mr. Gioe. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you put on shows ? 

Mr Gioe. He didn't have too much money and I had enough to 
cover to put on a show. It might cost us two or three hundred dollars. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you do that ? 

Mr. Gioe. Through the small towns in Iowa. 

Mr. Halley. But not in Chicago ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

^Ir Halley. Yon testified some time ago that the reason you were 
able to get such a deal with Russell was that you were circulating 
around Chicago at that time selling printing so you knew everybody. 
But it turns out now that you went in with Russell about 3 years after 
you left the printing business, and in those 3 years you were not doing 
much of anything except bootlegging in Iowa, and putting on wrestling 
shows. How did you get the contacts that made you worth 25 percent 

to Russell? ^ , ^ ^ ' ^ £ ^^ • i. 

Mr. Gioe. I didn't get any contact. I told you I ]ust fell into 
something. . 

Mr, Halley. I think you muscled into something, and I am trying 

to find out how. 

Mr. Gioe. I didn't muscle in. I am not a muscle man. 

Mr. Halley. We will form that conclusion. Apparently your 
earlier statement was wrong, wasn't it? You said you were circulat- 
ing around Chicago selling printing. 

Mr. Gioe. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. But that was years before. You weren t selling print- 
ing at the time vou were trving to get the bookmaking business. _ 

]SIr. Gioe. I got to know people that were in that business and I tried 
to sell them tickets. 

INIr. Halley. You didn't get to know bookmakers when you were 
selling tickets. 

Mr. Gioe. That was the ticket I was printing. 

Mr. Halley. What kind of ticket ? 

Mr. Gioe. The safety ticket. 

Mr. Halley. What kind? . 

Mr. Gioe. It was new at the time. It was an innovation. It was 
foolproof, that you could not be past-posted. There was a carbon 
copy on the back of it. These people had this ticket and came to this 
little printing plant that we had, printing the old-type ticket. So we 
took this ticket and put it on the market at the time. It is the only 
ticket being used today. It took on. But we didn't have enough money 
at the time and it got 'bigger and bigger and then there was a close-up 
of the books so we folded up. 



OEGA]S^ZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 101 

Mr. Hallet. You must have known something about the book- 
making business at that time, when you went into the printing business. 

Mr. GiOE. Not too much. 

Mr. Hallet. Well, a little bit. 

Mr. GiOE. This fellow O'Brien, the one that had the idea of the 
tickets, IS the one that brought it over to this little printing office. 

Mr. KoBiKSOK. What is his other name? 

Mr. GiOE. He is from the south side. I can't think of it. You see, 
this was back in 1932 or 1933 or 1934. I coulchi't think of his first 
name olf'hand. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't your company print liquor labels ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. For whisky bottles ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And didn't you print tax stamps ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Isn't that really why you went into that printing 
business { ^ ^ 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you want to stand on that answer? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did the company never have anything to do with 
printing whisky labels or liquor labels ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

,,,^,{[;.^^^^Y- ^^'fi'® you ever associated with any company that had 
anything to do with printing whisky labels ? -^ ^ ■> 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever associated with any company that had 
boYtles?^ printing tax stamps for whisky bottles or liquor 

Mr. Gioe. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You will stand on that answer under oath? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And your statement is that the only thino- your com- 
pany printed was these tickets ? ^ *= ^ 

Mr. GiOE. The tickets. 

Mr. Halley. And so in that way you got to know them? 

Mr W.?' i!^'? *^'^^ v^^- ^ ^^^ familiar with a lot of the books, 
them ti7ketsr' ^'''' ^'^ ^"^ ^"'''^ ^^'^ ""^^^ "^^^"^^^ ^o sell 

Mr. GioE. I sold them tickets. 

Mr. Halley. But the business didn't prosper? 

Mr Gioe. It didn't prosper because the business closed up for 18 
t?ia?time. '' ^"' '^'' '"^^ ^"^^ "^ P^'"^^"^^ ^^ ^^^^ doing at 

Mr. Hallet. And then, when you went back into the business it 
s your testimony that you had enough friends so that Ha?ry tus- 
sell gave you 25 percent of his business ? ^ 

Mr. Gioe. Yes ; I could give him some business. 

Mr. Halley How much of this business did you get? 

Mr GiOE. How much of the business did I get? I went out and 
opened up some accounts. . ^ '"^^"^ ^^^ ^^^ 

Mr. Halley. How many accounts did you open ? 



102 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INfTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. GioE. Well, maybe I got 10 or 20. I don't remember. 

Mr. Hallet. Well, name those that you got. 

Mr. GiOE. I went to the lay-offs, and I went to these smaller books, 
where they got a $20 bet. I went in for small stuff. I couldn't 
afford to take big gamblers at the time. You know what I mean. 
So a lot of these people, they get a $20 bet on a 10-to-l place; they 
w^ant some place to lay it off, because they can't stand to lose that 
much on one race. So I knew a few that were in business at the 
time, and I got some of their business. 

Mr. Halley. Did you account for as much as a thousand dollars 
a day of business? 

Mr. GiOE. I would say so. 

Mr. Halley. You personally would bring in a thousand dollars a 

day ? 1 1 1 • 

Mr. GioE. Not every day. But some days that account would brmg 

in $4,000. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say you brought m half of Harry Rus- 
sell's business ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you bring in a quarter of it? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I "brought in some business. 

Mr. Halley. You brought in some business ? 

Mr. GiOE. I brought in some business. 

Mr. Halley. But you took no part of the loss. You only had a 
quarter of the profits ? , i i 

Mr. GioE. On the basis of a 50-50 book, you take no loss, and 
you only get 50 percent of the winnings, and the bookmaker takes 
the loss, in order to get the account. That is how it originally started. 
But it didn't develop that way until 25 percent of the losses came m 

there. 

Mr. Halley. You mean you would have 25 percent of the loss, if 

there was a loss ? 

Mr. GiOE. That is right. . , • 

The Chairman. May I ask one or two questions ? I see here m this 

book the license of your construction company is Frank B. Pantaleo 

and Charles J-o-y-e. Is that your name ? How do you pronounce your 

name, or spell your name? 

Mr. Gioe. In 1934 I went to court and changed it from G-i-o-e to 

J-o-y-e. 

The Chairman. What did you do that for? 

Mr. Gioe. Because of the difficulty of the spelling and pronouncing 

tllP IlclIllG 

The Chairman. So, in the beginning it was G-i-o-e ? 

Mr. Gioe. No, G-i-o-e was my family name, but I changed it to 

The Chairman. What kind of name is that ? J-o-y-e? 

Mr. Gioe. I don't follow you, sir. 

The Chairman. I mean, are you Italian? 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So, in 1934, you changed your name to J-o-y-e« 

Mr. Gioe. Yes, sir. -r , ^ir ^ o 

The Chairman. Now, in 1930, did you know Jack McGurn i 
Mr. GiOE. Yes; I would know him around that time. 
Mr. Robinson. What did he do ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 103 

The Chairman. Was he called "Machine-Gun Jack McGurn?" 

Mr. GiOE. Yes. 

The Chairman. How did you happen to know him ? 

Mr. GioE. Well, he was around with Tony Accardo. 

The Chairman. And about that time do you remember when there 
was a massacre down at Fox Lake, 111. ? 

Mr. GiOE. Fox Lake, 111. ? 

The Chairman. Yes, in which three fellows were killed. 

JNIr. GiOE. I don't know anything about it, Senator. 

The Chairman. Were you not arrested with Machine-Gun Jack 
McGurn about 1930 in an automobile at Twenty-second and Loomis 
Street? 

Mr. GiOE. I was arrested with him once. 

The Chairman. Well, where were you arrested ? 

Mr. GioE. I was just trying to think. I don't know if it was Twenty- 
second and Loomis. 

The Chairman. Well, you were arrested with him ; weren't you ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What were you doing with him then ? 

Mr. GiOE. Just riding with him. 

The Chairman. Was he a good friend of yours? 

Mr. GiOE. No ; not particularly at the time. I just got to know the 
fellow. 

The Chairman. You were both armed at that time: were you not? 

]\Ir. GiOE. AVhen I was with Jack McGurn ? No, sir. 

The Chairman. Was he not a rather notorious killer? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I don't know if he was a killer, but I didn't 
know 

The Chairman. Pretty rough fellow ; was he not ? 

Mr. GiOE. He was an ex-boxer. That is all I know about him. 

The Chairman. Is he still living ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And about the next year you and Tony Accardo 
got arrested together; did you not? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir; the next year or sometime we got arrested. I 
don't know the year. 

The Chairman. Carrying concealed weapons? 

Mr. GiOE. They charged us with carrying concealed weapons. 

The Chairman. What were you carrying concealed weapons for? 

Mr. GiOE. I wasn't carrying a concealed weapon. 

The Chairman. Was Joe Batters with you at that time? 

Mr. GioE. That is Tony Accardo. 

The Chairman. Oh, yes ; that is Tony Accardo. 

Now, you said you were in jail the second time. Did you get back 
in jail after you got out on parole? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where ? 

Mr. GiOE. I was picked up at 5 o'clock in the morning at home and 
taken to the penitentiary. 

The Chairman. How long did you stay in, the second time ? 

Mr. GioE. Six months. 

The Chairman. Was that for violating your parole? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 



104 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. What did you do to violate it? 
Mr. GiOE. Nothing. 

The Chairman. Who said you violated it? 
Mr. GioE. The parole board. 

The Chairman. What did they charge you with? 
Mr. GiOE. Changing jobs without permission. 
The Chairman. Had you done that? 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You said a minute ago that you were m the liquor 
business with DeLucia or Kicca, or that you knew he was in the liquor 
business. 

Mr. GiOE. No; at the time he had this restaurant, this Blue Grotto 
down on Wabash Avenue. 

The Chairman. On what avenue ? 
Mr. GiOE. Wabash Avenue. 

The Chairman. Was that a liquor place, a speakeasy ? 
Mr. GioE. No ; it was a restaurant. And, of course, they sold wine, 
beer, and liquor in them days. In fact, he had a couple of restaurants. 
I think he had one on Market Drive at one time. 

The Chairman. Was that the Mr. DeLucia who has been here 
today ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And what liquor business was he m ? 
Mr. GioE. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Well, was he in the liquor business ? 
Mr. GioE. No, but he had this Kalph with him, I believe. They 
made this champagne, this synthetic champagne. 

The Chairman. They made synthetic champagne? Ralph who? 
Mr. GiOE. I can't thiiik of his last name. 
The Chairman. Where did they make it ? 
Mr. GiOE. I don't know. 

The Chairman. How do you know they made it? 
Mr. GiOE. They claimed they made it, or bought it from somebody. 
I couldn't tell you. But I bought it from this Ralph. 
The Chairman. And he was in business with DeLucia ? 
Mr. GioE. That is right. He had the restaurant with him. 
The Chairman. What years was that ? During the thirties ? 
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Or was that before prohibition ? 
Mr. GioE. Well, it's got to be before prohibition, Senator. I mean, 
before repeal ended prohibition. 

The Chairman. You knew that this Ralph and DeLucia were part- 
ners in that business— didn't you— in that champagne business? 
Mr. GiOE. They had this restaurant. I gathered that they were. 
The Chairman. You operated in Kansas City— did you not — at 
one time? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Never came out to Kansas City ? 

Mr. GioE. I have been in Kansas City. 

The Chairman. What did you go there for ? 

Mr. GiOE. I was in Kansas City, there, for a couple of weeks. 

The Chairman. What was that for? 

Mr. GiOE. At that time I was 



ORGAXIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105 

Tlie Chairman. You remember when vou were in Kansas City 
W iien was it ? -^ 

Mr. GiOE. I was just trying to think if it was 1936 or 1937 

ihe Chairman. All right. What were you doing there ? 

xMr GiOE. >>ell, I tried to get some business, some telephone busi^ 
ness, lor the Russell office. 

The Chairjman. Did you get run out of town ? 

Mr. GioE. Out of Kansas City ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. Not that I know of; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Who did you see in Kansas City ? 

Mr. GioE. It was Gus Spozzateri. He had a restaurant. 

ihe Chairman. He had a restaurant « 

Mr. GioE. Yes. 

??® Chairman. And did you do some business for Russell ? 

Mr. GiOE. We got some business for his office. At that time there 
was :^pozzateri and Tony Gizzo and Charlie Carollo. 

Tlie Chairman. Did tony Gizzo give vou some business? 

Mr. GiOE. Through that office. 

The Chairman. What office ? 
. ^^;\ 9^0E. Spozzateri and Gizzo and Charlie Carollo had an office 
m which they took the horses or took bets with different iieople For 
instance il they had too much on a horse, thev would call us up, and 
we would take some. " i ? ^ 

noH^^ Chair3ian. They had tlie news service down there, did they 
Mr. GiOE. In 1936 ? 

The Chairman. Well, whenever it was that you were down there. 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir, I don t think so. 

The Chairman. Thev had a horse parlor, thou^rh? 

Mr. GiOE. I believe so. Yes. "^ ' 

The Chairman. And so you got their business, their lay-off busi- 
ness, for you and the Russell boys ? 

Mr. GiOE. Right, I got some of it. 
^ The Chahjman. Who else did you get business from in Kansas 

Mr GioE. That was all. Well, through him I imagine later on we 
might have developed some more, but I couldn't say offhand lust how 
much business we got out of him. 

The Chairman. Who else did you do business with down there « 

Mr. GiOE. In Kansas City ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. I really don't know, Senator, if we did any business with 
anybody else down there. 

The Chairman. Now who is this Mr. Dillon that helped to ar- 
range to get you a parole ? 

Mr. GiOE. I never met the man. 

The Chairman. You knew of him, did you not? 

Mr. GiOE. Just what I read in the paper 

a ]Solef ''''''^'''' ^'■^"^^t- Louis? Did you know somebody got you 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

68958— 51— pt. 5 8 



106 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Did you pay somebody to get you one? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You did not know anything about Mr. Dillon « 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. . • . , • -d , -i /^i i 

The Chairman. Did you have a connection with this Ketaii L^ierKs 
International Protective Association? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. ... 

The Chairman. Did you ever have any connection with any union 

.activities ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you ever a member ot the union « 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. . 

The Chairman. How about the Bartenders Union i 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. -rx i , .i o 

The Chairman. How large a hotel is this Seneca Hotel, by the way i 
Mr. GiOE. It is 16 stories. I don't know how many units they have. 

I imao-ine they have four-hundred-some-odd units. 

The Chairman. And at the Seneca Hotel you said Mr. Greenberg 

was one of your people that visited you ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes. t^ i i 

The Chairman. And you mentioned another lawyer, Korshak, 

Sidney Korshak ? 
Mr. GioE. Yes. . .... 

The Chairman. Did you see him frequently? Did he visit with 

you? 

Mr. GiOE. Not too frequently. 

The Chairman. Is he a lawyer in Chicago ? 

Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. ■ 

The Chairman. Does he represent you in legal matters? 1 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. I 

The Chairman. Well, does he visit with all these people you have 
been talking about, like Tony Accardo and Greenberg and these other 
people ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I don't know who he visits w^th, but I have known 
Sidney a long time, just as friends. 

The Chairman. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. GioE. I would say I knew Sidney maybe 16 or 17 years. 

The Chairman. You were not in school with him, were you ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you get to know him ? 

Mr. GiOE. Through some fellows on the West Side when he just 
opened his office. He had just finished school and opened an office, I 
believe, about that time. 

The Chairman. What fellows ? 

Mr. GiOE. Oh, some kids he knew around there that I just happened 
to know. It was just a casual acquaintance at the time when I met 
him, just as a lawver. That is all. I think he handled a deal for 
them in regard to^a cafe or something. That was the first time I 
met him. 

The Chairman. How about this State Senator Brady? Do you 
know him ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Who did you do business with in St. Louis? 



ORGAMZED CRIMEi IX LSTTERSTATE COMMERCE 107 

Mr. GioE. I have never been to St. Louis more than just to pass 
through. I never knew anybody there. 

The Chairman". Do you know Tom Whelan in St. Louis? 

Mr. GiOE. Xo, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Molasky down there? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Bill Brown, Mr. Brown in the Wire Service? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Who was your contact in St. Louis? 

Mr. GioE. I had no contact in St. Louis. I think Russell was 
■originally from St. Louis. He done business with the people in St. 
Louis. There were different officers. There was an officer by the name 
of Cooper, I believe, and something else, at the time. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know of the American Distillery Co. ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you done business with them ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you get acquainted with that company ? 

Mr. GiOE. Through Jack Steele. 

Mr. Robinson. Who ? 

Mr. GiOE. Jack Steele. 

Mr. Robinson. Who is he ? 

Mr. GiOE. Jack Steele, who handled the American Distilling Co. 
products. 

Mr. Robinson. And did you work with Steele ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know the Rothbergs ? 

Mr. GiOE. Of American Distilling? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. One Rothberg. 

Mr. Robinson. Which one is that ? 

Mr. GiOE. I believe it is Sam Rothberg. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. GiOE. I have probably met him two or three times. 

Mr. Robinson. And do you know the Rose that is connected with 
the Rothbergs ? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't ; no, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you know Bugsy Siegel ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Who handles the business for American Distilleries 
in Chicago? 

Mr. GiOE. Right now ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. I understood Jack Steele gave it up, and Eddie King, 
who is counsel for the American Distillery in New York, Marshall 
Korshak, Sidney Korshak's brother — I don't know whether Sidney 
is interested — and one of the other Korshaks 

Mr. Robinson. Who is Marshall Korshak ? 

Mr. GiOE. Marshall Korshak is an attorney. 

Mr. Robinson. He is not in partnership with Sidney? 

Mr. GiOE. No; he is an attorney, but I think he has something to 
• do with the whisky company in Chicago. 

Mr. Robinson. And who is Eddie King? 



108 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INrTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. GiOE. Eddie King is the counsel for American Distilling. And 
lie used to be a lawyer around Chicago. 

Mr. Robinson. He used to be in partnership with Sidney Korshak, 
did he not? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know whether he was a partner. They might 
have been in the same law office. I don't know wdiether they were 
partners. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know James Curry ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him ? 

Mr. GioE. James Curry? No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Conto ? 

Mr. GiOE. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Joe Fusco, of the Gold Seal ? 

Mr. GiOE. I know of him. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you done any business with him ? 

Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Joe Peskin? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Sugar Joe Peskin? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. It is a fact that you have known Greenberg pretty 
intimately ; isn't that right ? 

Mr. GiOE. Yes. I mean intimately, that I just had that deal with 
him. 

Mr. Robinson. And you know this, too : that he was fairly intimate 
with Al Capone ? 

Mr. GiOE. Well, I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't he take over Capone's Manhattan Brewery ? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. You know the Canadian- Ace Brewery? 

Mr. GiOE. Right. But I don't know any of the background. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't have any interest in Canadian- Ace ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Now, in this business with Russell and Pierce, I 
don't know whether I mentioned it, but did you have some contact, 
or a person with whom you did business, in New Orleans ? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Robinson. You didn't have anyone there that you did business 
with? 

Mr. GiOE. No. They might have done some business, but I never 
knew anyone down there that they did business with. 

Mr. Robinson. How about Philadeli^hia ? 

Mr. GiOE. None. 

Mr. Robinson. You never did any busines with Herman Taylor in 
Philadelphia? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You never heard of that name ? 

Mr. GioE. He is a fight promoter. 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. GiOE. I have heard of the name. 



1 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE • 109 

Mr. Robinson. But you did not do business with him ? 
Mr. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you happen to meet him ? 

:Mr. GioE. I didn't meet liim. You asked me if I heard of liim. 
I know Taylor is a fight promoter. 

Mr. Robinson. You never visited with him or never met him ? 

]\Ir. GioE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How about in Washington, here ? 

INlr. GiOE. This is the first time I have been here. 

]\fr. Robinson. No, did you do any business, while you were in 
this partnership, with anyone in Washington? 

Mr. GioE. I don't think so. 

]\rr. Robinson. Did you do any business with anyone by the name of 
Beard? 

Mr. GiOE, No, sir. 

]\f r. Robinson. You never heard of him ? 

IVIr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You said you did know Eddie Vogel? 

Mr. (iioE. I know of him. 

Mr. Robinson. You know what business he is in ? 

]\f r. GiOE. I understand he is in the slot-machine business. 

Mr. Robinson. You never had any interest in that business at all ? 

Mr. GiOE. No,, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you know Steve Schiavone ? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Never heard of him ? 

Mr. GiOE. I didn't know him. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you heard of him ? 

Mr. GioE. Steve Schiavone ? 

Mr. Robinson. No, S-c-h-i-a-v-o-n-e. 

Mr. GiOE. No ; I wouldn't him. 

Mr. Robinson. Or Mecessa? Anyone by the name of Mecessa? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. • 

Mr. Robinson. Was your source of liquor from the Capone business ? 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. During the days that you were running it in Wis- 
consin into Iowa ? 

JMr. GioE. No, there was no such thing as dealing with them. There 
was any number of people that you could have gone to that nobody 
even knew, that handled it, around Wisconsin, you know. 

Mr. Robinson. You never handled any of that type of business in 
<Jhicago ? 

:Mr. GiOE. Very little. Very little. 

Mr. Robinson. And the only amount that you handled was this 
amount that you got from Ricca's place? 

Mr. GiOE. That wasn't no liquor. They had this synthetic wine 
at that time. I understand this Ralph did. That was about all. 

Mr. Robinson. You never bought anv alcohol from them« 

Mr. GiOE. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you retain any one to endeavor to get a parole 
tor you at any time ? => i 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know who made the arrangement ? 
Mr. GiOE. I know nothing about it. 



110 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. All you know is that you were paroled. Right ? 
Mr. GiOE. Right. I applied in the proper manner and was paroled. 
I had 54 months of good conduct in there. It was the first time that 
I had ever been in trouble. And I had the recommendation of the 
Attorney General and a letter from the judge. It was a recommenda- 
tion that I be given parole. I never saw 10 cents out of it, and never 
had anything to do with it. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you state what the name of your accountant was ? 
Mr. GiOE. Shaf er, at that time. 

Mr. Robinson. That is right. Did Bernstein ever handle any of 
your work? 

Mr. GiOE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. One question. I notice here that your partner 
seems to draw $150 a week out of this business. 
Mr. GiOE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But you do not draw anything out of it? 
Mr. GiOE. No, sir. Well, as I stated, he is the working partner, 
and he is working on the job. So he hasn't any means of livelihood, 
and I am trying to build up a bank roll so that we have something to 
operate with. 

Mr. Chairman. So that you are leaving your money m ? 
Mr. GiOE. It is accruing. 

The Chairman. And your wife is paying the expenses of living ? 
Mr. GioE. Yes. 

The Chairman. I do not think that we particularly need this book. 
Mr. GioE. I will be very happy if you will give it to me back. That 
is the working ledger. 

Mr. Robinson. Is this the book that you have to produce to the 
parole officer periodically? 
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairt>ian. Whatever this ledger is marked as an exhibit,, we 
will let the record show that this is a black ledger book which is now 
being returned to the witness. 
Anything else, Mr. Robinson? 
Mr. Robinson. No, Mr. Chairman. I guess not. 
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Gioe. You will remain subject to 
subpena without our having to serve another subpena on you. When 
you are notified to appear, the subpena that has been served on you 
is still valid without the service of another one. 
Mr. GioE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And these additional books and records Mr. Robin- 
son will communicate with you about, and you will abide by his order. 
Tliat is all, and you are f ree'^to go back to Chicago. 
Mr. GiOE. Thank you, sir. 
There was an article about me tliat I defied a committee. I never 

defied any committee. 

The Chairman. How did that get into the paper? 

Mr. GiOE. I don't know. I went to the marshal's office and picked 
up the subpena, and that is all that was said. So the newspaperman 
asked me if I got my subpena from the Kef auver committee. I said,. 
"Yes, I went up to the marshal's office and took it." The next thing I 
knew there was a headline that I had defied the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will be adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 4 : 22 p. m., the committee adjourned, subject to the 
call of the Chair.) 



INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



THURSDAY, OCTOBER 5, 1950 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate Organized 

Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Chicago^ III. 

EXECUTIVE SESSION 

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 45 a. m., in room 26T 
United States Court House (Old Post Office Building), Chicago, 111., 
Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman), presiding. 

Present : Senators Kefauver and Owen Brewster. 

Also present: Rudolph Halley, chief counsel; George S. Robinson, 
associate counsel; George H. White, Patrick H. Kiley, William C. 
Garrett, and W. D. Amis, investigators; and Julius Cahn, adminis- 
trative assistant to Senator Wiley. 

Elmer Oltman, Intelligence Unit, Bureau of Internal Revenue, 
Kansas City Division ; and N. F. Ortwerth, Internal Revenue Agent, 
St. Louis Division. 

Daniel P. Sullivan, operating director, Crime Commission of 
Greater Miami ; and Walter J. Devereux, chief investigator, Chicago 
Crime Commission, and consultant to the committee. 

August S. Brown, special agent. Treasury Intelligence, Chicago, 111. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Gentlemen, we have a rule of our committee that we swear everybody 
who is going to testify. You do solemnly swear the testimony you 
will give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

The Honorable Martin H. Kennellt, (mayor, city of Chicago). 
I do. 

John C. Prendergast (commissioner of police, city of Chicago). 
I do. 

Ivan A, Elliott (attorney general, State of Illinois). I do. 

Robert C. Eardley (first assistant attorney general. State of Illi- 
nois). I do. 

Otto Kerner, Jr., (United States attorney, northern district of 
Illinois). I do. 

John S. Boyle (State's attorney, Cook County, 111.). I do. 

Elmer Michael Walsh (sheriff. Cook County, 111.). I do. 

Ill 



112 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF HON. MARTIN H. KENNELLY, MAYOK, CITY OF 
CHICAGO, ILL., ACCOMPANIED BY POLICE COMMISSIONER JOHN 
C PRENDERGAST, CHICAGO, ILL. ; ATTORNEY GENERAL IVAN A. 
ELLIOTT, ILLINOIS; FIRST ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL 
ROBERT C. EARDLEY, ILLINOIS; OTTO KERNER, JR., UNITED 
STATES ATTORNEY, NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS; JOHN S. 
BOYLE, STATE'S ATTORNEY, COOK COUNTY, ILL.; ELMER 
MICHAEL WALSH, SHERIFF, COOK COUNTY, ILL.; AND WALTER 
J. DEVEREUX, CHICAGO CRIME COMMISSION 

The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly, we appreciate your coming today 
to meet with us. Do you have a general statement ^ 

Mayor Kennelly. I prepared one, Mr. Chairman. It you don t 
mind, I will read it. . 

The Chairman. Yes, sir; that will be very convenient 

Alayor Kennelly. Mr. Chairman, Senator Brewster, and your statt, 
I welcome you gentlemen of the Senate committee and your statt to 
Chicao-o I assure you of the sincere and wholehearted cooperation 
of the^ity administration in the investigative work you are doing. 

All agencies of government must work together m law enforcement, 
the Fecteral Government, die city government and the State s attor- 
j^ey— and I can assure you that you will receive every support trom 
State's Attorney Boyle. 

It is fundamental in government, that there shall be no alliance be- 
tween law breakers, law makers and law-enforcement agencies. Any 
such alliance is a challenge to the very stability of government itselt. 

I was elected mayor of Chicago 31/0 years ago and since that time, 
day in and day out, night in and night out, we have been working to 
make Chicago a better city in which to live; to create conhdence of 
the people in government and to build up the reputation of Chicago, 
at home and abroad. 4? i:„<v 

Chicago is my town. So I am sure you will appreciate my feeling 
regarding its good name. • i r „ 

We do have our share of crime in the city of Chicago, including 

gambling. , , , 1 £ ± -p 

I was shocked, as everyone was last week, by the murder of two ot 
our citizens. The entire investigative force of the city and tire 
county are working to solve these crimes. They must be solved and 
the perpetrators brought to justice. If your committee, the I Bi, or 
any other agency can help us we will welcome such assistance. 

mat we'^have been trying to do is to enforce all laws— to create 
aeneral respect for law and order in Chicago. 

Every ordinance on the books is being more strictly enforced, 
whether it involves gambling, driving while intoxicated, peddhng 
narcotics, health inspection, regulation of taverns, building inspection, 
selling liquor to minors— just to name a few examples of our law- 
enforcement program. T 1 ^1 1 i. Uo 

Early in my administration, in order to accomplish the best results 
we called in experts to make a study of the police department, to see 
where it was weak and where improvements could be made. As a re- 
sult of these studies we brought about a complete realmement of the 
top command. Civil service and the merit system were strengthened. 
The detective bureau was reorganized. The records system was com- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE OOAI^VIERCE 113 

pletely revamped to conform Avitli FBI standards. The traffic division 
was completely overhauled, resulting in the saving of hundreds of 
lives. A department of race relations was inaugurated. The crime 
laboratory was strengthened. A new department of crime prevention 
was established. We strengthened the juvenile educational program. 
We organized schools for all members of the police department, not 
only recruits and patrolmen, but sergeants, lieutenants and cai)tains. 
Everyone, men and officers alike, were included in the instruction 
courses in up-to-date police work. 

I 'am proud of the progress we have made in improving the police 
depjirtment. Under the merit system as administered by our civil 
service connnission, I look for this improvement to continue."^ 

Official statistics show Chicago's crime position as compared with 
other large cities. According to analysis of the latest FBI figures of 
cities of more than 10(),()()0 population, based on census rei)orts at that 
time, Chicago ranks twenty-seventh in murders; twentv-fourth in 
aggravated assaults; fifty-eighth in burglaries; forty-third in grand 
larceny; eighty-first in petty larceny; and sixty-eighth in auto thefts. 
In considering violations of the law, I always try to remember that 
there are different standards of conduct. There is the citizen, for 
instance, who bribes a public offii-ial or a policeman. And then vou 
have the individual who accepts the bribe. 

There is the gambler who profits from illegal operations — and the 
official who permits these illegal operations. 

There is also the ordinary citizen who just bets. Without him you 
wouldn't have any gambling business. 

Then we have those who encourage this betting with a continuous 
sales campaign. 

So let's figure out in what category each of us as a citizen belongs. 
Public support is essential in any program of law enforcement. 
I have repeatedly stated, before"^ and after my election, that I am 
opposed to organized gambling in the city of Chicago, and we have 
done something about it. 

The reduction in organized gambling today has been stated to be 
as high as To percent. 

Two years after my election the Chicago Crime Commission re- 
ported, "syndicated crime is at the lowest ebb in Chicago than has 
been true for many years." 

Since that time, with the increased efficiency of the police depart- 
ment this situation has been further improved. 

There is no longer an open and flagrant disrespect for the law in 
Chicago. 

It is obvious that the prevention of murder and other crimes is 
difficult. The records of the detective bureau show that during the 
first 9 months of this year ending October 1, 88.1 percent of the 
murders in Chicago have been solved. It is also obvious that more 
policemen, better trained policemen — and better paid policemen — will 
have the effect of tightening up law enforcement and serve to pre- 
vent crime before it is committed. 

We welcome the help of this committee. 

We pledge you our complete cooperation in this investigation. And 
in return we ask that your committee make available to us and the citi- 
zens of Chicago all the facts that you may develop from your inves- 
tigation, which affect our city. 



114 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INrTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I have run my administration on the principle that the people are 
entitled to all of the facts. , n v- 

If yonr investigation uncovers any tie-up between crmie and politics 
in Chicago I want to know about it, and the people are entitled to 
"the facts. 

Too long have the same names and generalities been bandied about. 

If the facts are there — let's get them. 

With all of us working together we can strike a telling blow for 
good government. 

I thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mayor Kennelly. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Mayor, some time ago we had an informal dis- 
cussion and you stated some facts which I think would be of great 
interest to the committee on the decrease in crime in Chicago, steps 
-which you had ordered to be taken and steps which Commissioner 
Prendergast took in order to effect that decrease. Would you want 
to elaborate on that and give the details? 

Mayor Kennelly. Of course, the only instructions I can give as 
mayor is to see that all laws are enforced. We don't make any dif- 
ferentiation. We don't differentiate between one ordinance or one law 
or another. I think we have talked too long about gambling and 
letting everything else go. We have a drive on gambling and find 
Ihat every other law in the city was being violated. What we have 
done in Chicago is to enforce every law, whether it be gambling or 
not. My orders to the commissioner of police are to see that there 
is no gambling in Chicago. He works on that every day. He gets 
complaints from citizens, from crime commissions, from his men m 
the field, and it is his obligation to close up the gambling operations. 
I think it is well known in Chicago that you can't go m off the street 
now and place a bet anywhere in Chicago. I am not saying that there 
is not gambling in Chicago. People some time like to bet. We 
haven't changed their habits. But there is no open, organized gam- 
bling that we can find in Chicago. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Mayor, as you say, a number of generalities have 
been bandied about. One of them which has been made rather specifi- 
cally is that certain members of the Chicago police force have grown 
wealthy in office. As you know, the committee in its investigations in 
other ])laces did find one or two law-enforcement officers in certain com- 
munities who had become very wealthy in office. I wonder if you 
have checked that and whether anything has been done with refer- 
ence to investigating the particular men who are supposed to have 
acquired the manifestations, at least, of wealth. 

Mayor Kennelly. There wouldn't be any way for us to check 
whether they are wealthy or not. 

Mr. Halley. For instance, would your police department have the 
authority to call in and question men in the law enforcement depart- 
ment who have the outward manifestations of wealth ? 

Mayor Kennelly. If that wealth was acquired before he came into 
office,"l wouldn't think it would be my obligation to investigate it. 

Mr. Halley. Suppose it were acquired while they were on the 
police force? . ^ 

Mayor Kennelly. How would we go about questioning police offi- 
cials as to their wealth ? Just ask him the question ? 



ORGAN^IZED CRIME^ EN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115 

Mr. Halley. Just bluntly put it to him : "How do you on a police- 
man's salary now have, say, a ranch in the Southwest, an expensive 
automobile, a fine house, and so forth. How much money have you 
in the bank?" 

Has anj^thing like that been done and do you have authority to do 
anything like that ? 

Mayor Kenxellt. I question that. I wouldn't know without ask- 
ing the State's attorney whether we have that kind of authority. 

Mr. Hallet. Do you know whether there is that authority, Mr. 
Boyle? 

Mr. Boyle. I don't know whether the man could refuse to answer 
or not. If he did refuse to answer, what crime would he commit? 
That is the answer. Would he be subject to dismissal from the Chi- 
cago Police Department or not \ I don't know. I don't know enough 
about civil service rules and regulations. 

Mr, Halley. At this stage of the inquiry, at this point with nothing 
■on the record but your statement, I prefer not to pursue that subject, 
except to say generally that the committee has certain income tax in- 
formation in its possession which indicates that certain members of 
the jDolice force and certain law-enforcement officers have wealth. Of 
course they may have acquired it through very intelligent investments. 
We just don't know yet. 

Mayor Kennelly. Will vou make that information available to 
me? ' 

Mr. Halley. Certainly. 

Mayor Kennelly. Will it be made public ? 

Mr. Halley. That will be at the committee's discretion. 

Mayor Kennelly. I think it should be. I think if there is any- 
body on the police department or in government who can't account 
for their income, who can't show that it has been properly acquired, 
he should not be connected with the police department or with 
government. 

]\Ir. Halley. Would you state to the committee, Mr. Mayor, whether 
in all the time j^ou have been in office anybody not holding official 
position has attempted to influence you in the placement of police 
officers in any particular district, or in their removal? That again 
has been bandied about and that is why I ask the question. 

Mayor Kennelly. One of my first instructions to the commis- 
sioner of police when I became mayor was that I was the only one to 
give liim instructions, that he was not to take instructions from any- 
body outside of my office, that no politician should give him instruc- 
tions, and that no one could control the placing of captains or any 
other officials in the police department. I believe he has followed out 
those instructions. 

Mr. Halley. Is it your feeling that at this time, with of course the 
minimum of exceptions that are beyond control, the police force of 
Chicago is honest and the individual members are doing an honest 
job of law enforcement? 

Mayor Kennelly. I believe so. I think so. I think we have a 
good police department. I never go back prior to my administration 
because everybody has his own problems. I certainly would not be 
critical of what happened 20 or 25 years ago in Chicago. Policemen 
are of course human beings. I pointed out a few days ago to a friend 
vof mine that I was talking to about police work that everyone who is 



116 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

arrested in Chicago or any other city immdiately tries to get ont of 
it, whether he be a supposedly good citizen, whether he be a lawyer, 
or a ])olitician. He immediately tries to figure out how^ he can beat 
it, as they say. He is not adverse to using any method he can use to 
attain his objective of not going to jail. I have in mind a man whose 
relatives were arrested for driving while intoxicated. This man said 
to me, '*! will do anything to keep them from going to jail." That is 
what the pol iceman is up against. That is what law enforcement agen- 
cies are up against. The citizens themselves bribe or attempt to bribe 
them. All that w^e have been able to do in Chicago, as I see it, is first 
to let them know that as far as this administration is concerned we are 
trying to run an honest administration. We don't stand for any fix- 
ing. We don't stand for any politics in the police department. I have 
had people come to me in politics, surely. I am in politics. I am a 
politician. Some say I am a poor one, but I am a politician. One 
man said, "I would like to have a certain captain sent to my district." 
I said, "Can you vouch for him? Is he a good police officer^ Does 
he know how to prevent crime in his district ? Does he Ivnow how to 
prosecute crime when he gets it?" 

He said, "I want a man put in the district." 

Mr. Halley. Will you give the commitee the names? 

Mayor Kenxelly. No; because he didn't accomplish his purpose. 

Mr. Halley. I think the committee would have a great interest in 
knowing who would want to accomplish that. 

Mayor Kennelly. Xo ; I wouldn't give you that. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you think it would help us 

Mayor Kennelly. No, not in this particular instance. 

Mr. Halley. In arriving at our conclusions ? 

Mayor Kennelly. This fellow really happens to be a pretty good 
fellow. I wouldn't put him in the category of one wdio was trying to 
fix anything. That is the feeling. That has been the feeling, that 
the i^olice department should be controlled by men in politics. 

Mr. Halley. Isn't that a big part of our problem, that we don't 
want to hurt the innocent, we certainly don't want to ruin reputations 
or do anything that would be irresponsible ? At the same time in an 
effort to be fair and in effect to be good fellows, too, sometimes some 
of us are used, and perhaps by talking to this man we might find out 
how this came about. Maybe somebody was trying to use him. 

Mayor Kennelly. No; this fellow didn't. I don't think he knew 
what he was asking. I don't remember his name, as a matter of fact. 
No ; I don't remember the name of the captain. Tliis was when I came 
into office 3i/^ years ago. . 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Mayor, one of the things we discussed and on 
which I must say I thought your position was quite reasonable at the 
time we had our informal discussion was the fact that obviously a city 
like Chicago, which welcomes large numbers of visitors, must offer 
some types of entertainment and that obviously there must be a limit 
to the amount of strict clamping down on all minor violations of the 
law involved in the entertainment field. Am I right there? 

Mayor Kennelly. I never knew of that policy myself. I don't 
believe any law should be violated just because conventions come 
to town. The laws on the books ought to be enforced, regardless of 
whether it is for out-of-town people or those at home. 



ORGANIZED CRniE^ IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 117 

Mr. Halley. That would be your view ? 

Mayor Kexnelly. That would be my view. 

Mr. Halley. We have had little opportunity, having just opened 
these hearings here today, to check what may be just general state- 
ments, but a number of statements have been made to the committee 
that certain areas of the city do operate on a more or less open basis 
not involving any bookmaking or serious offenses, but that liquor is 
sold illegally, that various types of operations to take money away 
from visitors are used, in short to clip them. I was wondering if that 
had come to your attention and if it is so or not. Do you know? 

Mayor Kexxelly. Whether there are clip joints ? 

Mr. Halley. Whether there are clip joints, whether tliere are people 
cheating visitors, whether there is liquor being sold in violation of 
the law. 

Mayor Kenxelly. I never heard of liquor being sold in violation 
of the law. There have been some statements made to me and to the 
press that some of these visitors are clipped, as you call it. We 
don't stand for that. As soon as it comes to our attention, instructions 
are given to the commissioner of police to clear up the situation, to 
revoke licenses, if necessary. 

Mr. Halley. At the present time are there any parts of the city in 
which dance halls operate with minor infractions of the law in order 
to please the visitors ? 

5layor Kexxelly. I wouldn't know about that. I never heard of a 
dance hall complaint since I have been mayor. 

Mr. Halley. Or saloons or cabarets ? 

Mayor Kexxelly. We have 10,000-some-hundred taverns in Chi- 
cago. We revoke their licenses if we have a complaint about them in 
our office. 

Mr. Halley. By and large, then, would you say that the general 
su])ervision of the taverns and the entertainment facilities is strict? 

Mayor Kexxelly. I hope it is. 

Mr. Halley. And your instructions to the police force are to keep 
them strict, is that right ? 

]Slayor Kex^^x^elly. They all know when it gets into my office that is 
the end of the license. 

Mr. Halley. You haven't had any complaints? 

INIayor Kexxelly. No. You mean complaints from citizens. 

]Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mayor Kexx-elly. Occasionally I get letters. I probably get a 
couple of letters a week, anonymous, saying a place is running gam- 
bling on the side. I turn it over to the police department even though 
it is anonymous and investigate it. We investigate every complaint 
and try to do something about it. 
We investigate every complaint and try to do something about it. 

Mr. Halley. And you are satisfied that there is no widespread area 
of violation, even minor violation, of law? 

Mayor Kexxelly. I wouldn't go that far. I think you have to 
take into consideration tlie human elements involved. 

Mr. Halley. That is what I had in mind, particularly in the enter- 
tainment field. 

Maj'or Kexxelly. I am sure there is always room for improvement. 
We are not holding ourselves out as a holier-than-thou city or people. 



118 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

We are trying to better the conditions here. That is about all anyone- 
in government can hope to do, 

Mr. Halley. To the extent that there is room for improvement, 
would you say that that room for improvement is within the area of 
this committee, that is, having to do with organized crime and having 
to do with interstate relation&liips ? Or is it just on a purely local and 
petty level ? 

Mayor Kennelly. Of course I can't tell. These names that you 
read in the paper, I have been reading them for a good many years, 
the same names, the same charges. As I said in my statement to the 
committee, we ought to try to get the facts and see whether they have 
these connections. We ought to find out about this captain who has 
wealth and can't account for it, where he got it. I am for that. 

Mr. Halley. In fairness he hasn't yet been asked to account for it,. 
and there is more than one, I might also say. 

Mayor Kennelly. Whoever they are, they haven't any place in my 
administration. We don't want them around if they are taking money 
from outside sources, no matter who they are. 

Mr. Halley. But those rumors had not come to your attention? 

Mayor Kennelly. I read things in the paper. I follow it very 
carefully. I think you will find and your investigators will find there 
is less politics in the police department than in its history — and tliis 
is off the record because we are not bragging about it. I think there is- 
less politics in the police department than at any time in its history. 
There is no one who can say that they can come to the mayor's office 
and get anything fixed in the police department, no one. That is the 
source of control of the police department. 

Mr. Halley. Would that be true in the police enforcement at the 
local level, for instance the captain in the precinct? 

Mayor Kennelly. These captains, some of them have been there for 
years. In order to remove them, you have to prefer charges, you have 
to have the facts. You can't just go and say we don't like you and 
think you are no good and we have to eliminate you from the police' 
department. 

Mr. Halley. Has there been any policy in Chicago of making 
changes in personnel by shifting people to dift'erent jobs without any 
particular criticism of them but simply to keep them on their toes ? 

Mayor Kennelly. That is a policy that has been debated among 
the police officials. When I first came in we had a police commissioner 
and no assistants. The captains in the districts ran their districts. 
Of course, I am new to this business of police work and don't know 
too much about it and I don't pose as an expert now. I felt sure that 
it was not the right way that it should be run. Ten thousand five hun.- 
dred taverns in themselves are a problem. So we brought an expert 
adviser into the police department. We put him on the staff and it 
took him 6 or 8 months or a year to see what we could do to strengthens 
the police department. 

Mr. Halley. Who did you bring in ? 

IVIayor Kennelly. Col. Franklin Kremel. 

Mr. Halley. For the record, would you state what his prior expe- 
riences had been? 

Mayor Kennelly. He is connected with Northwestern University 
in charge of the traffic school up there. What his background is I 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 119' 

have in the office. He is well regarded and well known throughont the 
country. Some say he is an expert on traffic, but he was very helpful 
to us in his study because of his knowledge of the local situation. I 
talked to a lot of people about the police department. Some thought 
that I ought to bring in an outsider from Xew York. The best ad- 
vice I could receive was that that would be a mistake, that I would 
have to have somebody on the grounds. So I started out to find what 
I thought were honest men to put in the top command. That, to me, 
was fundamental. First, were they honest? That was the first thing 
I did. It took me a long time to find them. This is not easy work as 
you probably have found. I found Commissioner Prenclergast here, 
and everybody agreed that he was honest. I then tried to find out 
who he could get for his assistants. There were a lot of suggestions 
made to me which came in from good citizens and even from crime 
violators. 

The papers made suggestions. I didn't take those suggestions, be- 
cause there was no one running the police department but the mayor. 
Some may have been all right, but they didn't know the score. I 
talked to the FBI, the top people. I said I want to get some staff 
here so that when they come into my office I know they are honest. 
That is where we start, with an honest top command. We ended up 
with Deputy O'Connor. When we made him chief first deputy' — is 
that his title ? 

Commissioner Prexdergast. Deputy in charge of field service. 

]Mayor Kexxellt. The papers carried the story that he was one 
man that his alderman or board member didn't know. That was a 
great recommendation as far as I was concerned. We did that all the 
Avay down the line, with the chief of detectives, and so on, people that 
we had confidence in. So we built our staff. There was one commis- 
sioner for 25 or 30 years trying to run the police department. 

Mr. Halley. Can you fire or remove anybody ? 

Mayor Kennelly. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you shift anybody from major assignments? 

Mayor Kennelly. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Can you state in general what shifts were made, just 
the major ones? 

Mayor Kennelly. The chief of detectives. I put in his assistant^ 
Andrew Aiken. That wasn't any reflection on the man who was there, 
but we weren't solving, in my opinion, the number of murders and 
crimes that I thought we should. I thought I ought to do something 
about it. The man who was captain in the district. Storms, was 
apparently doing a good job. We transferred this fellow. Then we 
started to discuss the question of transferring captains when some- 
thing happens in a district. I had been reading about transfers all 
my life in the police department. It always sounded like a lot of 
baloney to me, just done for effect. I said to Prendergast, keep them 
there and make them do it right there. Don't transfer them out 
because something happens. Keep them there and then we can hold 
them responsible for that district. Transfer him out, and he would 
say, "I am new in this district and the other fellow is new in tliat dis- 
trict." It would have been easier to make the headlines with a lot 
of transfers, but we have kept it to a minimum. I mean we don't 
do it just because there is a gambling joint running out there and w& 



120 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

find it. We don't transfer them ont for that. I don't feel that is 
the way to do it. Yon don't do it in bnsiness and yon shouldn't do 
it in the police department. 

Mr. Halley. E'rom your experience how should the committee 
approach that problem in its thinking, where we find a gambling joint 
running wide open in an area and a police captain who has been 
in the area for 10 years, mustn't the committee assume that he knew 
about it and condoned it? 

Mayor Kennelly. I have mistaken that position. We had a case 
here a couple of weeks ago. I had forgotten the incident. I said 
to the commissioner of police, you can't tell me, while it was up on 
the second floor, that he didn't know about it, the captain or some- 
one knew about it in the district or it couldn't be running. 

Mr. Haeley. In a case like that do you bring the captain up on 
departmental charges ? 

Mayor Kennelly. The commissioner talks to him. I don't talk 
to the captains myself. 

Mr. Halley. Have any of them been brought up on charges and 
fired? 

Mayor Kennelly. They have been brought up to the department. 
Commissioner Prendergast has tlie authority to suspend them for 29 
days and then to resuspend them. You have suspended a good many 
captains, have you not, Commissioner? 

Mr. Prendergast. Some time ago ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Could you give us a list of the captains who were 
suspended? If you don't have it right here. Commissioner, will you 
provide it for the record ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Any information that you want. We want to 
help you. | 

(The information furnished by Commissioner Prendergast is iden- 
tified as exhibit No. 20 and is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Halley. Was anybody actually fired? 

Mayor Kennelly. Only Drury and Connelly, I believe. 

Mr. Halley. They were the only two ? 

Mayor Kennelly. Yes. Is that right? Do you remember that? 

Mr. Boyle. There Avere other police captains fired, but they werp 
restored by court orders. 

Mayor Kennelly. I am not familiar with the details. 

Mr. Boyle. They were fired by the Civil Service Commission of 
Chicago, but they appealed their cases to the courts. I understand 
several of them w^ent to the appellate court and they were reinstated 
by the court. I think there were seven policemen fired at one time; 
isn't that correct; and the civil service commission put them off the 
Chicago Police Department and they got a court order restoring 
them to their rights and even with back pay, as I understand it. I 
think that was before Mayor Kennelly took office. I am sure it 
was. 

Mr. Prendergast. It was. 

Mr. Halley. Who would be best able to give the committee the facts 
on that ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I can get it for you. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. Prendergast. That is some years ago. 



ORGANIZED CRIME^ IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 121 

Mr. Halley. Just one other tiling, Mr. Mayor. Is there any prac- 
tice in Chicago or any authority for the practice of bringing in the 
well-known hoodlums for questioning from time to time to find out 
what they are doing ^ 

Mayor Kennelly. I wouldn't be able to answer that. 

Mr. Prendergast. I thiidv the chief of detectives could answer that. 

Mr. Halley. Is he here t 

Mr. Prexdergast. That is his responsibility. No, he is not here, 
but I can get him here any time you want. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know, Mr. Boyle ? 

Mr. Boyle. You will excuse me for smiling, but of course we had 
Ricca. Campagna, and Gioe in, and they had to answer questions 
because they were on Federal parole, and if they didn't cooperate 
with the authorities that would be a violation of their parole. The 
other night 1 was severely criticized for violating the civil rights 
of people in tliis community at the Chicago Bar Association and 
also that I was persecuting people rather than prosecuting them. 
So you have one group of people who are interested in civil rights, 
and then you have another grouj) of people who are lawbreakers who 
probably have no civil rights, in my opinion. Do you mean that 
certain people wdio are known hoodlums should be picked up around 
the streets of Chicago ? 

Mr. Halley. And brought in and asked ''AVhat are vou doing these 
days?" 

Mr. Boyle. That is a matter for the police department. 

Mr. Halley. Has the police department done it, do you know, 
Commissioner? 

Mr. Prendergast. Not to a great extent. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. I have no other questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Senator Brewster, we ho2:)e that as long as possible 
you will stay with us today and tomorrow and the next day. Be- 
cause of the exigencies of the campaign and what not, we ai'e a little 
short of committee members, and we would welcome you to stay and 
participate in proceedings. 

Would you like to ask Mayor Ivennelly some questions? 

Senator Brewster. Mr. Chairman, I very much appreciate your 
courteous suggestion that I sit in this morning. As you know, I took 
a great deal of interest in some of the procedures to try and focus 
national attention on these problems. I ha])pened to be in town to- 
day. I shall not be able to sit in to any substantial extent, but I am very 
happy to see the start of what I certainly hope will prove a very con- 
structive investigation. I am sorry that my colleagues who are mem- 
bers of the committee on both sides of the aisle aside from yourself are 
not able to be here, two on the minority side, because they are involved 
in campaigns at this time which seem to demand their attention, and 
the members on your side, I presume have other responsibilities as 
well. I don't believe that I should undei' the circumstances undei'take 
({uestions because I have had some ex])erience in this field niyself and 
I know^ the extent to which most careful preparation is necessary. I 
am, however, interested in the general tone and tenor and I am haj^py 
to spend as much time as I can while I am in town. I certaiidy 
appreciate your courtesy and consideration. 

68958— 51— pt. 5 9 



122 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Brewster. It should be re- 
called that Senator Brewster made a speech on the floor of the Senate 
about inrtltration of molester or fyan<jster elements into le<iitimate busi- 
nesses, which is one of the very im])ortant things that we want to look 
into, which had a oood deal to do, I think, with o;ettinf!; the Senate to 
consider favorably the creation of this connnittee. AVe would be very 
<i;lad if you would ask any questions. 

Senator Brewster. Thank yon. I am olad you s})oke of that. I did 
make as eloquent an appeal as I could to the Senate to take cognizance 
of this situation in some appropriate way. I didn't undertake to say 
just how it should be done, and I did, as you doubtless know, turn over 
to the committee quite a little material which had been supplied me 
l)earino- on various ])hases of this matter throughout the country, which 
1 made available. I hope that material may to some extent have been 
heli:)ful. If as time goes on there is any more material I get, I cer- 
taiidy will make it available to the committee. 

Mayor Kennelly. Will you keep this otf the record ? 

The Chairman. Off the record. 

( Discussion off the record. ) 

Mayor Kennelly. We close taverns on the evidence of the police 
department. I revoke the license. We do it regardless of who is 
involved, who knows who, or anything else. 

The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly, I appreciate very much your 
splendid statement and your words of welcome to us. I want to ask 
you one or two questions. 

I was impressed by the fact that the civil service had authorized the 
dismissal of some policemen or captains who you felt were doing wrong 
and the court somehow or other had reinstated them. How does that 
come about ? Is that because of some defect in the law ? 

Mayor Kennelly. The State's attorney made that statement. 

The Chairman. We will ask him. 

Mr. Boyle. They have a right to appeal on the theory that a police 
officer or a man holding an office of sergeant, lieutenant, or captain in 
the Chicago Police Department has a certain vested right if he has 
15 or 18 years in the police department, and at the end of 20 years he 
is entitled to pension. In that case they appealed the ruling of our 
ciA'il service commission to the court here. If the court rules with the 
civil service commission, they appeal to the appellate court, and from 
the appellate court to the supreme court, if necessary. In many in- 
stances where police officers have been fired from the Chicago Police 
Department by the civil service commission, court orders have been 
entered reinstating them. 

The Chairman. That is rather demoralizing, isn't it? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes ; it is. 

The Chairman. What is the fault? Where is the difficulty? 

Mr. Boyle. Going back to the Drury-Connelly case, when they were 
let go by the Chicago Civil Service Commission they filed a petition 
before I believe it Avas Judge Sbarbaro, and he reinstated them. The 
city appealed from his order to the appellate court and the appellate 
court said they had no right to reinstate them. Then it went to the 
supreme court and the supreme court reversed the appellate court. 
The courts have a right to review the actions of the civil service com- 
mission. It is not final. 

The Chairman. They do it on the evidence? 



ORGANIZED CRIAIE IX INTERSTATE OOMMERCE 123 

Mr. Boyle. They have a whole new case. We follow in our courts 
the strict rules of evidence, which the}' do not follow in the civil service 
commission. 

The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly. you have Commissioner Pender- 
gast, the head of the police system. What is the set-up of the city 
government of the city of Chicago ? How many commissioners do you 
have ? 

iNIayor Kexxelly. In the police department ? 

The Chairman. No; I mean generally. 

Mayor Kennelly. We have the commissioner of public Avorks, 
building commissioner, streets and alleys commissioner, highway com- 
missioner, health commissioner, and so on. 

The Chairman. Are they all appointed by the mayor? 

Mayor Kennelly. All appointed by the mayor. 

The Chairman. Do you have an advisory body, a council, or a 
connnission ? 

Mayor Kennelly. No. 

The Chairman. A city council? 

IMayor Kennelly. The city council confirms the appointments. 

The Chairman. But you make the recommendation ; you make the. 
appointment ? 

Mayor Kennelly. That is right. 

The Chairman. They have only the power of confirmation ? 

JSIayor Kennelly. That is right. 

The Chairman. Do they have the power of discharge or is that solely 
in you? 

]Mayor Kennelly. That is solely in my hands. That is my respon- 
sibility. The commissioner is the one appointive officer in the depart- 
ment. The others are civil service. He has the civil-service rank of 
captain. The others are all civil service and I couldn't remove them 
without charges being preferred. 

Mr. Prexdergast. With the exception of the deputies. 

INIayor Kennelly. I can remove them from deputy positions but 
not from the force. 

Mr. Prendergast. They are regular captains. 

The Chairman. This civil service system that you have in thi^ police- 
department, do you think it is a good civil service system ? How are 
the members of the civil service board selected or appointed ? 

Mayor Kennelly. Appointed by the mayor. 

The Chairman. And subject to the approval of the council ? 

Mayor Kennelly. Subject to the approval of the council. 

The Chairman. Is the council nonpartisan or bipartisan or Demo- 
cratic or Eepublican or how do they run ? 

Mayor Kennelly. At election time it is nonpartisan when they are 
running for office, it is political when they are not, and it is biparti- 
san in many instances. 

The Chairman. How manj^ members of the city council are there ? 

Mayor Kennelly. Fifty. Seventeen are rated as Republicans, and. 
thirty-three Democrats. 

The Chairman. How often do they meet, usually? 

]Mayor Kenneixy. Every 2 weeks. 3 weeks. 

The Chairinian. Their power is the power of veto insofar as the 
police department is concerned largely, is it not ? 

Mavor Kennelly. Thev have the right of investigation. 



124 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. In the talk and wliat not around — and we are all 
just talkino; things over here — I have heard people say and I have read 
that some time back in any event a lot of people had the idea that 
money was paid by somebody for the purpose of getting a certain 
position in the police department and while you now liave a good civil 
service connnission, it was very difficult to get a lot of people really to 
appreciate the fact that things were truly on their merits in the police 
department, that they still thought that some favoi- 

Mayor Kennelly. I think they are gradually getting to know that 
it is on the square. 

The Chairman. You are satisfied that there isn't any of that going 
on now ? 

Mayor Kennelly. Without question of doubt we have probably the 
best civil service commission that Chicago ever had. 

The Chairman. Are they appointed for terms, the members ? 

Mayor Kennelly. They are appointed for a term. I just reap- 
pointed one the other day. 

The Chairman. How many members are on the civil service com- 
mission ? 

Mayor Kennelly. Three. We have a man by the name of Steve 
Hurley who is the chairuian of it. I believe you know him, General 
Elliott. 

Mr. Elliott. No. 

Mr. Boyle. Former president of the Chicago Bar Association. 

Mayor Kennelly. Quite a fellow. When we took office there were 
literally thousands of temporary employees. They are now 85 per- 
cent civil service. Examinations have been held and temporary ap- 
l^ointments have been taken off the roll. 

The Chairman. I have also seen it stated that on the theoretical 
ratio of the number of police that you should have for population, the 
Chicago police force was considerably understaffed, that your ap- 
propriation wasn't sufficient. 

Mayor Kennelly. That is right. 

The Chairman. I think theoretically it is recommended that you 
have one police officer for every 600 population, is that correct? Mr. 
Devereux, is that what it is ? 

Mr. Devereux. I am sorry. Senator, I don't recall. 

Tlie Chairman. It is somewhat less in Chicago. 

Mayor Kennelly. I think so. They are not only understaffed 
hut underpaid. I think w^e rank about ninth or tenth of the big cities 
in salaries paid to policemen. We pay for patrolman I think $3,480 
a year and New York pays $4,100. 

Is that right, Mr. Devereux, about that figure? 

Mr. Boyle. You are right. It is about 1 for every 600 population. 

The Chairman. Do you know how Chicago runs? You have less 
than the suggested ratio ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. 

Mayor Kennelly. I don't have the figure. We will get that for 
vou. I have been trying for 3 years to do something about the salaries 
'of policemen. We have to go to Springfield, the capital of the State, 
for financial relief and because of politics or some other reason we 
haven't been able to get any relief in our program. 

The Chairman. You mean your budget has to be passed on by the 
legislature? 



OEGANIZED CRIME. IN I^^TERSTATE COMMERCE 125 

Mayor Kennelly. No. The taxing power in the city has to be — we 
are operated on an old rate of 5 years ago, and of course the costs 
have gone up. I pointed this out to the members of the legislature. 
I went down to the special session they had here this year, I spent 
about 3 Aveeks down there trying to get some relief. I pointed out 
to the members of the legislature that New York spends on the police 
department of New York City about $98,000,000. We spend about 
$28,000,000. We have big racial problems here, where we have 
threatened conflicts between the races. In one instance we had 500 
policemen who had to be taken from the stations. That is the kind 
of situation tliat taxes our police force overnight, such as a threatened 
riot on the South Side. The police commissioner had to draw in 
police, leaving the districts unmanned. I suppose the crooks proba- 
bly know about it. If they hear about a race riot, they think this is a 
good time to get to work in the other districts. 

We are making progress in those things. I am not satisfied with 
a good many of the police captains. I am not running the kind of 
administration that will permit anyone, be he a police captain or poli- 
tician or lawyer or anyone else, to make money out of the city gov- 
ernment that isn't proper compensation. I am opposed to it, and 
unalterably opposed to it. Wlien I was selected by the Democratic 
organization, by some reference to the Democratic organization, being 
here some 20 years, I told the Democratic organization the basis on 
which I would accept their support, first that I would run the job, 
that while I was a Democrat I didn't believe in the policy that be- 
cause I was a Democrat, the Democratic organization would run the 
government, and we followed that out. 

The Chairman. In that connection, what if any effort has there 
been on behalf of the Democratic organization or any other organ- 
ization to exert any influence ? 

Ma^^or Kexxellt. Not recently. 

The Chaieman. I understood that one difficulty in Chicago, at least 
in the past, has been that there were ward committeemen in the various 
wards that had great influence, political influence, and maybe the 
policeman who was in that ward looked more to the ward committee- 
man and was willing to abide by the judgment of the ward committee- 
man as to what should go on in that precinct than maybe he was with 
the police department as such, and that that was the cause of some 
sections of the city having lax law enforcement. 

Mayor Kenmelly. That may have been the way it was run. I think 
Collier's article which was out recently paid us a compliment. I don't 
know whether they meant to do it or not. They said that that system 
was no longer in existence here, that the police captain was the boss 
of the district. Well, at least we have cut one factor out of the busi- 
ness of crime. People in politics, in my opinion, the ward committee- 
men, have no place in the police department. We can't do all these 
things overnight. This is an old, established custom in American 
politics, not only in Chicago but in Memphis and in Vermont. 

Senator Brewster. Maine. It is synonymous. 

]\layor Kexnelly. It is Republican, anyway. I didn't take this 
position as mayor for any purpose other than to do a good job for 
this community. 

The Chairman. Certainly I have never seen any personal insinua- 
tions against you, Mayor. The most I have ever seen I think was in 



126 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

the Collier's article where it says that so much was going on you had a 
hard time keeping up with everything that was going on. I think they 
made that observation. 

Mayor Kennelly. Of course, we don't go talking about these names 
that you mention here. I don't know these names; Accardo and all 
these names don't mean anything to me. I say stop crime, stop gam- 
bling in Chicago, and that w^ill affect those people. That is the way 
I do it. They have been talking about them too long. We cut out 
their source of income. When I became mayor you could walk down 
any street here and find a big gambling joint. 

Mr. Boyle. Air conditioned. 

Mayor Kennelly. Air conditioned, serving you sandwiches while 
jou gambled. 

The Chairman. Three and a half years ago. 

Mayor Kennelly. Yes ; and they don't exist now. I challenge any- 
one to prove that they exist or that you can walk into any one. Even 
the crime commission, my good friend over there, Mr. Devereux, in 
his reports or gambling — his complaints rather — show that 85 or 90 
percent are what they call sneak bets at this time. 

The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly, you mentioned the Chicago Crime 
Commission, and I was going to ask about that. I know there have 
been some differences of judgment between you and ]Mr. Peterson, the 
operating director, or maybe the officials of the Chicago Crime Com- 
mission. In the time that I have been interested in this, expressing 
my personal opinion, I have had the feeling that the Chicago Crime 
Commission was a very fine organization, and certainly that Mr. Virgil 
Peterson, while anyone might disagree with him, knows his business. 
He has been in the business a long time and I think he is a very splendid 
man. 

Mayor Kennelly. I subscribe to that. 

The Chairman. He and the members of his staff have been a great 
deal of assistance to us. I felt that crime commissions generally in 
cities did an awfully good job. I wonder what is the situation with 
the Chicago Crime Commission. 

Mayor Kennelly. I can subscribe to all you say about Mr. Peterson. 
I subscribe to that 100 percent. I like him; I like the crime commis- 
sion. As a matter of fact. I had been a member of it for a long time 
before I became mayor. I was a member — still am, I believe — of the 
crime commission. They have made a great contribution to Chicago. 
I disagree sometimes with their ways of doing things. After all, the 
mayor has to make these decisions and not outsiders, whether it be the 
crime commission or the Democratic county counsel committee, the 
association of commerce, or anybody else. In the final analysis, it is 
for the mayor to make the decision. If we have had any disagree- 
ments, it is on that })oint alone, not on objectives. 

The Chairman. But their effort in keeping in touch with the situa- 
tion 

IVIayor Kennelly. Has been very helpful. Some months ago I ar- 
ranged for a meeting between Mr, Devereux and Mr. Peterson and the 
police department. Under this new command that we set up here a 
year ago, one of the matters on the agenda was regular meetings of 
the top command to discuss crime in Chicago — to bring in people 
and talk about it. I said to Mr. Wyman and his associates on the crime 
commission, "Why don't you sit in and work with them and see what 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COAIMERCE 127 

you can do? They have more to do than what you are interested in, 
but I think it would be helpful to them to set up that kind of meet- 
ing — to bring them into the family." AVe like them. They are fine 
people. They are top fellows there. Austin Wyman and Guy Reed 
are some of the finest citizens we have around Chicago. 

The Chairman. I am glad to hear you say their work should be 
encouraged. I had the feeling down in Miami, for instance — Mr. Dan 
Sullivan is visiting with us here today — that they have done a wonder- 
ful job there. Down there they didn't have the cooperation of the 
sheritf and the city police and what not. I think in the future there 
will be cooperation there. 

Mr. Mayor, I also wanted to ask. Do you think it is important that 
we get at the matter of infiltration of some of these fellows like the 
Fischettis et al. into legitimate businesses? Is that a problem here? 

^Vlayor Ken nelly. They say it is. I wouldn't have any first-hand 
knowledge. If anybody who is rated by crime experts as a gangster, 
certainly all his activities ought to be investigated. 

The Chairman. Do you have any suggestions about how we can 
get into these matters ? For instance, it is reported that the Fischettis 
own the Chez Paree. What about that? 

Mayor Kennelly. I happen to know something about the Chez 
Paree. I have been in it a number of times myself as a visitor. Prior 
to my taking on this job as mayor I believe they had quite a gambling 
room up there which some rated as one of the best in the country, if 
you can call gambling rooms the best, the best for whom I woulcbi't 
know. It had quite a high rating. We closed it up. 

]\Ir. Boyle. Since then they sold it. 

Mayor Kennelly. One night I was invited to — this is off the record. 
It is not important to the hearing. 

(Off the record.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Mayor, how are the licenses issued for places 
like the Chez Paree? 

Mayor Kennelly. It is an amusement license issued by the police 
department. 

The Chairman. Does the police department have a board that passes 
on them or do they have to meet any standards ? 

Mayor Kennelly. They have to meet certain requirements. I have 
a man in my office who puts the final O. K, ; one of my assistants. 

The Chairman, So that comes under your jurisdiction. 

Mayor Kennelly. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, How about wholesale and retail liquor licenses ? 

Mayor Kennelly. The same way. 

The Chairman. Do the wholesale liquor licenses come under your 
jurisdiction? 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes ; all licenses for liquor. 

The Chairman. The State has no power in passing on licenses for 
wholesale and retail liquor establishments? 

]Mr. Prendergast. No. 

Mayor Kennelly. I am not familiar with that. 

Mr.' Boyle. I really don't know. How about Eardley. He should 
know, 

Mr. Kerner. There are three different licenses. There is a Federal 
license to wholesalers. 

The Chairman. That is just a taxpaying matter. 



128 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Kerner. Yes. There is a State license issued by the State 
liquor-control board or some such name. 

The Chairman. Where is the character of the applicant passed on? 

Mr. Prendergast. Police department. 

The Chairman. By the city police department? 

Mr. Prendergast. By the captain of the district. He either ap- 
proves or disapproves. 

The Chairman. Is there a board to whom the captain makes recom- 
mendations ? 

Mayor Kennelly. It is up to the commissioners. 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes. 

The Chairman. Does the State control board pass one way or an- 
other on the worth-whileness ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I know nothing about the State. There is a 
Government license issued. 

The Chairman. The Government refers just to the payment of the 
tax, I believe. 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes. 

Mayor Kennelly. We will get you the information for the record. 

(The information furnished by Mayor Kennelly is identified as 
exhibit No. 21, and is on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. You had some questions, Mr. Robinson. 

]Mr. Robinson. Along that line, Mr. Mayor, is there a thorough 
investigation made of the applicant for such a license ? 

Mayor Kennelly. There is supposed to be. I hope there is. We 
had a check made sometime ago of a good many women who had 
licenses, that is, the feeling was that there were a good many women 
and that somewhere back of it someone else owned the license, that 
they w^ere just being used as a front. We had that checked. I or- 
dered the counsel to check the licenses, some 1,500 or 2,000. I think 
we have the file on that, which might be helpful to you. That always 
disturbed me, to find w^omen owning taverns, but that is the way it was. 
We started to find out whether they had any connections, whether they 
were representing anyone. The file of the corporation counsel on that 
could be made available to you. 

The Chairman. We would be very happy if we could have the op- 
portunity to see that. 

Mayor Kennelly. Surely. Who was it who handled that in the 
corporation counsel's office? 

Mr. Prendergast. Mr. Harrington. 

Mr. Robinson. I understand the initial recommendation is made 
by the precinct captain. 

Mayor Kennelly. Not by the precinct captain. I never heard of 
that. 

The Chairman. I thought you said the police captain. 

]Mr. Prendergast. Yes ; the police captain. 

Mayor Kennelly. He checks whether they have any criminal 
records and so forth. It goes through a regular system. 

Mr. Prendergast. The application is made in the city collector's 
office, then it is forwarded to the police department, the health de- 
partment, building department, and I believe the electrical depart- 
ment. It is passed on by the district police captain, who has a man 
assigned to investigate applicants for licenses. It is returned to the 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129 

captain and then returned to our ofRce and then returned to the city 
collector. 

The Chairman. If the applicant has a criminal record of any kind, 
can he ^et a permit ? 

Mr. Prendergast. No, sir. 

Mayor Ken nelly. It is all recorded on the application. 

Mr. Robinson. Has it been the experience that the ward committee- 
man gets into that picture at all ? 

Mayor Kennelly. I wouldn't say "Yes" or "No" to that. 

Mr. Robinson. ]\Iayor Kennelly, would you care to make any com- 
ment on the presently existing — and I understand it is a presently 
existing — narcotics problem in the city of Chicago? 

Mayor Kennelly. I would like to talk about that because I think 
we are away out in front in the enforcement of those laws. About a 
year and a half ago I read somewhere in one of the papers or in one 
of the columns that there was a good deal of narcotics on the South 
Side; that is, out in the Negro district. I immediately called the 
commissioner of police and told him I wanted a drive put on, and we 
have done that. I get I think a monthly report of the number of 
arrests on narcotics violations. I said. '"I want to find out what you 
are doing about it. Keep me currently informed." We get a monthly 
report. We have arrested thousands of people in connection with this 
drive. We have a record of how the cases were disposed of in court, 
whether they were let out, whether they were lined. Your narcotics 
man is here. I saw liim. He is familiar with it. I think as far as 
any other city I think we are far out in front on it. We recognize the 
importance of it. We have the records of whether rhey are minors, 
whether they are juveniles, or .who they are. We will give you that 
record. We will make the record up and send it over to you. 

Mr. Prendergast. Do j^ou want that? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Prendergast. For how long a period ? 

Mayor Kennelly. From a year and a half ago. 

The Chairman. Show us what the situation was before and what 
you have done about it. 

Mr. Prendergast. It is pretty hard to show you what it was before. 

Mayor Kennelly. There wasn't much done before. 

Mr. Prendergast. You can base 3'our thoughts on it from this rec- 
ord. 

The Chairman. Mr. White, what would it be useful for as far as 
we are concerned ? You are the expert. 

Mr. WiiiiT,. I think the statistics compiled by your crime-preven- 
tion bureau along that line might be helpful. 

Mr. Prendergast. For Avhat period ? 

Mr. Boyle. You mean the crime-prevention bureau that was set up ? 

Mr. White. Yes. I glanced through those yesterday and I think 
there are some interesting figures in there. 

Mayor Kennelly. You mean the one that the State's attorney's 
office prepared ? 

Mr. White. :Mr. Boyle's office. 

Mr. Boyle. You should get them from the commissioner's office. 
Ours stem from the juvenile court originally. In a 6-month period 
thev had 65 addicts under the age of 16. 



130 ORGANIZED CRIME^ lA^ IX.TERSTATE COMMERCE 

Tlie Chairman. Can we get them from botli of you ? 

Mr. EoYLE. Yes. 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes. 

Mr. Boyle. Once an addict becomes an addict, what are you going 
to do about it? Yon and I or no one else is going to cure him. He 
is going to be an addict as long as he lives. We have Dr. Ivy, the head 
of our committee on crime prevention who is familiar with this, and 
he said tliat after 13 years of treating thousands of these addicts he 
knew of only one cure. That man has been cured for only 12 years. 
He hasn't used narcotics in 12 years. Once he becomes an addict of 
heroin, morphine or cocaine it is a problem from then until the day 
he dies. 

The Chairman. We would like to have not only your statistical 
information, but any information you can give us as to any rings or 
alleged rings that are operating in and out of Chicago in'narcotics. 

Mr. Prendergast. My figures may be wrong on this. We got a 
lead on some peddlers, and if my inemory is right we arrested 37 
peddlers one night, together with the cooperation of the narcotics 
unit of the Government. In one night we had 37 peddlers. 

Mr. Halley. So that the committee's recorcls can show the com- 
parison, can you give the committee the statistics on the arrests and 
convictions for, say, the year and a half prior to the beginning of the 
drive. 

Mayor Kennelly. Yes. 

Mr, Boyle. Frankly, your problem is in the colored section. That 
is the biggest narcotics problem. 

Mayor Kennelly. I would like to get this back to the gambling 
picture. We haven't been satisfied with just closing up establishments 
that are out in the open, that you find. We have made a drive on 
the telephones, wire rooms. I will have the police department make 
up a record of the places we have raided and the phones we have 
taken out from information from the telephone company itself. 

Mr. Halley. The committee would like to have that and in addi- 
tion to that, all the information on the actual locations of drops that 
you have. 

The Chairman. And the names of the people operating them where 
you have that. 

Mr. Prendergast. The persons who were arrested. 

Mayor Kennelly. Anything like that we will include in the re- 
ports and let you have them. 

The Chairman. Mr. Robinson had a few more questions. 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Mayor, I believe in your formal statement you 
made reference to a fact which I am sure is all too true, that gambling 
IS abetted and encouraged by the bettor. Would you say there is a 
place among law-enforcement ofticials for one who habitually gambles? 
Could he have the right mental approach to the enforcement of the 
gambling laws? 

Mayor Kennelly. If he gambled himself ? 

Mr, Robinson. Yes. 

Mayor Kennelly, No. 

Mr. Robinson. Would you care to make or would the commissioner 
care to make any comment regarding the policy racket in Chicago? 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 131 

Mayor Kexnei>ly. There is a policy racket that is very prevalent 
out there. We drove it off the streets, as one minister out there said, 
and drove it into the alleys. 

Mr. KoBiNsox. Is it peculiar to any particular location? 

Mayor Kexnelly. The Negro districts. 

Mr. KoBiNsoN. In connection with the narcotics situation in the 
colored district, has there been any indication of the sale of narcotics 
being carried on by any known Communists^ * 

Mayor Kennelly. I don't have that information. Maybe we can 
dig that up for you and give you the names of people that we have 
arrested. 

The Chairman. Do you have that ? 

Mr. pREXDERGRAST. I may say, with thousands of arrests that we 
have made out there — and I mean thousands — the average age I would 
say would be 24 or 25, including minors and if my figures are right, I 
think in about 6 months we arrested 42 juveniles. 

]\Iayor Kexnelly. Will you make a note and see if there is any in- 
formation about Communists that we have^ We have a very good 
detail that has to do with Communists in Chicago. They have the 
records of most of them, I guess, and can tell you all about them. It 
is surprising the information we have. I use it very often. We find 
it in our race relations business. 

Mr. Robinson. This is probably a question that might be more ap- 
propriately directed to Mr. Boyle, but I wonder whether or not there 
is any connnent with respect to the possible improvements in the rules 
of criminal procedure in the local courts here. 

Mr. Boyle. The Chicago Crime Commission has what they call the 
crime commission bills, and I went down to the legislature and argued 
before the judiciary committee of the Senate and also of the House. 
We had five bills, and they certainly would have helped us. You 
must understand that in Chicago as in Illinois, we are operating under 
a constitution that was passed in 1870. 

The Chairman. That is the same date the Tennessee Constitution 
got passed. 

Mr. Boyle. Are you operating under such constitution now ? 

The Chairmax^. Ours has never been amended since that time. 

Mr. Boyle. Neither has ours. It is practically the same constitu- 
tion we had in 1848, which was adopted in 1870, and they have never 
been able to amend it or change it. Cook County is the only county of 
the 102 counties in Illinois that has only a 30-day grand jury, and that 
applies not only to the regular grand jury that meets every month — 
they have a continuous grand jury, 12 grand juries in each year, but no 
grand jury can operate for more than 30 days. That applies also to a 
special grand jury. In other words if a special grand jury was ap- 
pointed to investigate a certain phase of crime, its life would be only 
30 days, which is practically about 22 days. The crime commission 
and other law enforcing agencies, including the mayor and the Gov- 
ernor, tried to change that so that Cook County could get a grand 
jury that would operate 6 months, and they were willing to settle for 
even 3 months, 90 days. You can understand that once an investiga- 
tion starts, at the end of about 20 working days, if that grand jury is 
not finished, you would have to start all over again with the next grand 
j"ry. 



132 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman, And take half the time gettiiio; them oriented to 
what the previous grand jury said. 

Mr. Boyle. Tliat is correct. You can't orient tliem by statements on 
paper. You have to have Avitnesses appear and testify. The Federal 
grand jury can meet for any length of time. 

Mr. Keener. Eighteen months. 

Mr. Boyle. The perjury bill, for instance. If a man testifies before 
our grand jftry under oath and says a certain set of facts are true, he 
then goes into court and testifies under oath directly opposite to what 
he testified before the grand jury, it is the duty of the State's attorney 
to prove — the proof is on the State's attorney to prove which statement 
is true. The mere fact that they are directly opposite doesn't convict 
him. We must prove which one is true when we take him to trial. 
That is another bill we tried to change. 

The crime commission tried to change the alibi bill. We tried to 
help them all we could. The alibi bill is that within a certain number 
of days before trial, if a defendant is going to produce an alibi he must 
notify the State's attorney in writing so he can check to see whether 
that alibi is true or false. 

Another one was a public office holder or any public emplovee who 
refuses to testify before a grand jury or before any judicial proceeding 
on the ground that he might tend "to incriminate himself, if he says 
that, then he forfeits his office. 

What was the fifth one, Devereux ? 

Mr. Devereux. Immunity. 

Mr. Boyle. Imnumity, yes. We had a case before I became State's 
attorney that was known as the Smokie case in which this fellow Vogel, 
who is supposed to have the slot machines, his brother was involved. 
There were saloon keepers or tavern owners who made statements that 
they Avere forced to take these slot machines. The case went to trial. 
These 30 tavern owners refused to testify on the grounds they would 
tend to incriminate themselves, even though they weren't indicted and 
no warrant was issued against them or anything else. Of course, the 
court sustained their right to refuse to testify on the ground that they 
might tend to incriminate themselves. The law that the crime com- 
mission was trying to pass was that the court could turn to the wit- 
ness and say, "I grant you immunity in this particular case." The 
court would have the right to grant them immunity and then they 
would have to testify. But every one of those bills was defeated. 
They were fought and really fought down there. 

Mr. Halley. Did the bar association approve them? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes, and the State's attorneys association of which I am 
a member, that is, all the State's attorneys, approved them. 

Mv. Halley. Who fought them in the legislature ? 

Mr. Boyle. Certain members of the State legislature, a bloc. 

Mr. Halley. Wlio would you say was the leadership of that op- 
position ? 

Mr. Boyle. I would sa}^ that Jimmie Adduci, Petrone — you know 
them, Devereux. 

Mr. Devereux. Libonati, Adduci, and Petrone are what we call here 
locally the West Side Italian bloc. 

Mr. Halley. Could they alone do it? 

Mr. Boyle. Frankly, we feel that they made a deal with some repre- 
sentatives down State for other legislation so that they would buck 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133 

these bills with them. Tliere was only one bill that got out of com- 
mittee, wasn't there, the grand jury bill. 

Mr. Devereux. The grand jury bill was reported out. 

Mr. Boyle. Reported out and beaten. We have the biggest county 
in the United States here in Cook County. We have nearly 5,000,000 
people here. We are operating under an 1818 constitution instead 
of an 1870 constitution. It is 100 j^ears old. You asked me why 
we didn't bring in these fellows and say, What are you doing now? 
They won't answer. They will give you their name and address and 
won't tell you anj-thing else. Under our rules and under our rules of 
procedure that is all they have to tell us. No man has to give testimony 
against himself. 

Mr. Halley. What deal did they make in the legislature so far as 
you know? 

Mr. Boyle. Devereux was down there, weren't you? 

Mr. De-\^reux. No; I wasn't down there. 

The Chairman. ]\Ir. Devereux, move up here and join the group. 
We will swear you. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so 
help 3'ou God? 

]SIr. Devereux. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Boyle. As State's attorney of Cook County I have to try cases 
on the law and evidence. I also took an oath to uphold the Constitu- 
tion of the United States and the State of Illinois and that isn't any 
idle oath. I have to do it. I can't try people on their re])utations. 
I did that once when I was an assistant. I tried a bunch of fellows on 
their reputations, convicted them with juries, and went to the supreme 
court and they were reversed — Jack Packburn, Bill Casto, Louis Al- 
teri, and Maxie Isen. It went on for about 6 or 7 months. They were 
the so-called members at that time. Gus Winkler. I guess they are all 
dead, they have all been murdered. Only one of them died a natural 
death.. We tried them on their reputations. It is a little far-fetched 
when you look back on it. We had police officers come in and testify 
that the}^ were reputed to carry guns, had a bad reputation in the com- 
munity in which they lived. They were reputed to be gangsters. The 
juries went out and convicted them in 10 or 15 minutes, but the con- 
victions didn't stand. As w^e look back on it now, we have the civil 
rights groups, the civil liberties groups and everybody else tearing our 
heads oil' today, and they weren't in existence at that time. 

Mr. Halley. It is very important in trying to pin down the re- 
sponsibility for the defeat of these criminal procedural bills that the 
committee know exactly who spearheaded the thing, and in that con- 
nection I think it is important that we know with whom they made a 
deal and what kind of deal they made, if you know it. 

Mr. Boyle. This fellow. Reed Cutler, from down State gave us a bad 
time before the committee. What is this fellow's name in Rock Island, 
the little representative ? 

Mr. Devereux. I have forgotten his name. I would suggest to the 
committee that the best informed man on this is Fred Pretzie, admin- 
istrative assistant to Mr. Peterson, who attended every session of the 
legislature 2 years ago, and is the active man in the commission in at- 
tempting to line up our commission forces to introduce two bills at 
the forthcoming legislature next January. We have cut down the five 
bills to two on the chance that maybe we can get those swung. 



134 ORGAMZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. While we are on this, Mr. Robinson, will you place 
the gentleman you talked about under subpena. What is his name? 

Mr. Boyle. Mr. Pretzie will come over this afternoon. 

The Chairman. Let's get him over. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any opi^osition to these bills on what you 
might say their merits, on reasonable grounds, that was raised at the 
time of their committee consideration ? 

Mr. Boyle. The point that was raised was that you were depriving 
people of the rights they had under the constitution and the laws of 
the State of Illinois, that you were depriving the defendant of a 
fair trial in a courtroom. They qnestioned the constitutionality of 
several of these things. 

The Chairman. You didn't believe that was the actual reason for 
their opposition, did you? 

Mr. Boyle. No; I did not. I think some of them were honest in 
their opposition. There were some good lawyers in the legislature. 

Mr. Devereux. There were a lot oi good arguments on the alibi bill. 

Mr. Boyle. A defendant doesn't have to testify at all in a criminal 
case. They claim why would we have to come in and say I am going 
to give you an alibi. Some of them were sincere in their arguments 
against the bill. 

The Chairman. We may have some substantial evidence, and I 
think we will try to make some inquiry along that line, but we cer- 
tainly would appreciate any information you can give us as to any of 
the so-called gangster element influencing any of these legislators or 
associations that might have influenced them. 

Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true that one of the legislators Avho was 
violently opposed to the bill had a criminal record ? 

Mr. Boyle. Criminal record? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Boyle. A member of the legislature ? 

Mr. Devereux. Yes, one of them has a record. I have forgotten, 
he is one of the West Side Italian group, Adduci ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. Under the Vagrancy Act. I tried him before 
a jury. That was before he w^as a State representative, but he wasn't 
convicted. 

The Chairman. I know Mayor Kennelly is terribly busy. Would 
you like for us to finish with you ? 

Mayor Kennelly. No. Go ahead. I was to go to Washington, but 
I canceled that. 

(Off the record.) 

The Chairman. Mayor Kennelly, you have followed up this matter 
a good deal and all of you gentlemen have. Will you now and at a 
later time after you have given the matter more thought and study, 
give us your recommendations as to what if any Federal laws you 
think might be strengthened that would help you with your local 
law enforcement problems? Any Federal laws that you think might 
be passed. To draw out your thinking on the matter, in our interim 
report on Florida, we list some of the recommendations that we are 
considering. I don't mean that we have agreed on these at all. They 
are just being considered. 

Mayor Kennelly. What are you trying to accomplish, Senator? 

The Chairman. I will give you this. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE CIOMMER'CE 135 

Mayor Kexnelly. I believe you sent me a copy of this. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let's see that copies get to all these gentlemen. 

Mayor Kennelly. What are you trying to accomplish? What is 
the purpose of the investigation? Are you trying to eliminate 
gambling as such ? Are 3'ou tr^'ing to eliminate people from control- 
ling gambling, certain people, people with criminal records? Just 
what are we trying to accomplish? 

The Chairman. I am glad you have asked the question, and we 
should have said something about it while the boys of the press were 
here. AVe are not naive enough to believe that any group or anybody 
can stop gambling. What we hope to help do is to throw blocks in 
the way of the interstate ramifications and the operation of it across 
State lines so that it might be reduced to a local problem where you 
could cope with the matter better. We find generally that the heart of 
the thing, the arteries of it, are through the wire service. At most of 
the places we have been the distribution and the subdistribution of the 
wire service is used as the nucleus for gambling activity, and around 
these distributors are a bunch of hoodlums and racketeers in a great 
many instances which very adversely affects the local law-enforce- 
ment problem. If in any proper way, without impinging on the right- 
ful jurisdiction of the local communities, we can cut out and- block 
some of the interstate communications aspects of it, in that way, 
by the transportation of slot machines or by being certain that these 
people are taxed and taxed to the limit and that they pay their taxes 
through the income-tax laws, then that is what we are interested in. 

Of course, that refers only to the gambling part. We also are 
examining all of our Federal statutes, our postal statutes, the mail- 
fraud statutes, the narcotics laws, and all other Federal laws to see 
what we can do to strengthen them. A whole lot of this is carried 
on through the mails at the present time. I don't know what the situa- 
tion here is, but in St. Louis, for instance, we found that one outfit had 
mail connections with Western L^nion operators in 19 or 20 States, 
I believe, wdiere they were their local agents for the purpose of making 
book and then communicating back and forth oif the Western Union 
lines and then clearing through the mail. Mayor Morrison, as you 
know, and the American Municipal Association, felt that by the 
strength of their wealth and their connections through the country 
they were able to exert influences and to operate in such a way that 
in some cases it was almost beyond the ability of local communities to 
cope with them. If you remember, the American ^lunicipal Associa- 
tion and the Mayors' Conference passed a resolution asking that the 
matter be gone i}ito. 

Mayor Kennelly. You certainly are tackling a big job. 
The Chairman. We have found that out. 

Mayor Kennelly. We have been working at this day in and day 
out. I talk to the police department every morning, and maybe two 
or three times a day, trying to do something about crime, and trying 
to do something about gambling particularly, because it burns me up 
to find that these operations go on and are protected. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, may I read into the record now, lie- 
cause I think it is pertinent, conclusion No. 7 in the interim report 
filed by the committee. The committee has seven conclusions of a 



136 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

general iiatiire and then referred specifically to the Miami investiga- 
tion. No. T was tlie final conclusion of the general conclusions. ^It 
i"eads as follows: 

It is essential that the true nature of the evil be recognized. The question 
is not whether gambling or any other form of illegal activity is morally good or 
bad. It is. rather, that we must weigh the full evil effects upon 'the body 
politic of permitting powerful groups of criminals to utilize the channels of 
interstate commerce for the purpose of controlling illegal enterpi-ises when it is 
clear that these groups now obtain and always have secured their power by (1) 
using violence and intimidation: (2) attempting to corrupt and control" local 
government; (.3) obtaining overbearing economic power by amassing great 
wealth through nonpayment of taxes and by means of monopoly. 

I think the specific things the chairman has mentioned have been 
the si^ecific manifestations summed up in this general conclusion. 

The Chairman. Mr. Robinson, do you have any more questions of 
the mayor? 

Mr. RoBiNsox. No further questions. 

Mayor Kennelly. I have always thought it strange that the tele- 
phone company could or would put phones into gambling houses, 
whether they wouldn't have some discretional^ power to say whether 
that was a proper place, or whether the number of phones going in 
was proper. I know in one raid they made there were 30 phones over 
here in one of the office buildings. There was no way in the world 
to find it. We just happened to get it through some undercover man 
who brought it in. I have often wondered why that would be per- 
mitted, whether the telephone company hadn't some obligation, too, in 
getting this information around. 

The Chairman. That is quite right, and particularly during time 
of war, when telephones were very difficult to get, we found in some 
places the bookies had no trouble getting banks of telephones. 

Mayor Kennelly. The telephone company does cooperate with us 
when they find these places. 

Mr. Prendergast. We do report them to the telephone company 
Mr. Boyle. There are about 13,000 phones. 

Mr. Prendergast. I think there were over 2,000 in Chicago alone. 
Mr. Boyle. That is over a period of some time. Their attitude is 
that they are a public-service company, and anybody who applies for 
a telephone they should give it to them until* they learn later that 
they are in the gambling business and then they takeit out. They wait 
until somebody complains. 
(Discussion off the record.) 

The Chairman. Attorney General Elliott's statement to the com- 
mittee of July 11, 1950, will be made a part of the record at this 
point. 

(Statement of Ivan A. Elliott, attorney general. State of Illinois, is 
identified as exhibit No. 22, and is on file\vith the committee.) 

The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2 : 15 p. m. 
(Whereupon, at 1 p. m. the committee recessed until 2:15 p. m.' 
the same day.) 

afterncon session 

(The committee reconvened at 2 : 20 p. m. pursuant to the taking of 
the noon recess. ) 

The Chairman. Gentleman, we have decided that we probably will 
make better progress if we keep one witness at a time and 'finish 



ORGANIZED CRIME« IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 137 

with liis testimony and then carry on from thei'e. So, we are going 
to start with you, Chief Prendergast. 

I will have to ask everybody else to wait outside until you are called 
except Federal officials. 

Mr. Halley, do 3^ou or Mr. Robinson have anything else to ask Chief 
Prendergast ? 

Mr. Halley. I think we will ask Mr. Robinson to go ahead. Are 
there any other specihc points at this time ? 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF JOHN C. PRENDERGAST, COMMISSIONER 
OF POLICE, CHICAGO, ILL. 

Mr. RoBixsox. 1 have a few questions I would like to ask you, Com- 
missioner. Maybe some of them were touched on. 

Do you have any system of investigating your police officers? 

Mr. Prendergast. 1 have a department inspector, we call him. 
This is not in the way of an alibi. Prior to the reorganization I had 
none, ])ractically. Now 1 have two assistants. 

Mr. RoBiNsox. I think it might be helpful if you could give a very 
brief sketch of what the organization of j^our police department is. 

Mr. Prendergast. My organization today consists of the commis- 
sioner, of course, two deputy commissioners, one in charge of staff 
services and one in charge of field services. The man in charge of 
staff services, of course, takes care of the office routine. The man 
in charge of the field services has charge of the detective bureau, 
the district stations, and the uniform branches of the department, 
and traffic. Under him there are deputies. There is a chief of the 
traffic and a chief of detectives and the chief of the uniform force. If 
you want a breakdown, I will have it laid out for you in a regular 
graph. 

Mr. Robinson. You have a graph or chart that we could have ^ 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let us have that and we will put it in the record 
as an exhibit to the commissioner's testimony. 

(The chart referred to is identified as exhibit Xo. '2'S, and appears 
in the appendix facing p. 1380.) 

Mr. RdBiNsoN. Do you have any particular precincts that you clas- 
sify as ihe worse precincts so far as crime is concerned ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Of course, the Loop district, I would say, and 
the twenty-sixth district and the thirty-fifth district. The Loop 
district takes in the entire Loop to Twenty-second Street and the Lake 
to the river. The thirty-fifth district is north of the river. The 
boundaries of that district are from the river to Division Street and 
from the Lake to the river. And the twenty-sixth district is west 
of the river. In fact, my river wards — and I may say two or three of 
my South Side districts — the third, fourth, and fifth — there is more 
crime in the fifth district than any other four districts in Chicago. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have the police captains been in those 
particular districts ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Offhand, I don't know. The captain of the 
twenty-sixth district, I would say, was in there for maybe a year and 
a half. The captain of the thirty-fifth district was transferred out of 

68958 — 51 — pt. 5—^10 



138 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

there, and I transferred him back hiter on. The captain of the first 

district has been there for several years, 

. Mr. RoHiNSON. Was there any particular reason for the transfer? 

Mr. Prexdergast. No. As a young- patrolman, I worked in the 
thirty-fiftli district, and I would say it is a district where you have to 
be a two-fisted fellow. When you leave the station you never know 
Avhether you are going to run into an argument or not. That was the 
reason I assigned them back there. Captain Brodie is in charge of 
the first district and Captain Hartford of the twenty-sixth district. 
Captain Harrison 

Mr. Robinson. He is the Captain Harrison who was removed at 
one time from the force ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes. He was discharged and later on reinstated, 
along with several other captains. That was back several years ago. 

Mr. Robinson. Has there been any investigation made with respect 
to Captain Harrison so far as his accumulation of wealth is concerned ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I don't know what Captain Harrison has. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know ? 

Mr. Prendergast. No ; I do not. I have access to the files, of course, 
to show how much these captains have. 

The Chairman. What does it do to the morale? Do you make 
charges before the civil-service commission and then they are dis- 
charged, and they appeal it and come back? Do you lose your effec- 
tiveness over them? What does that do to the morale of the organ- 
ization? 

Mr. Prendergast. I think the greater number of captains that would 
be discharged — I think they would be more careful in the future. 
That would be my impression. 

The Chairman. I just wondered whether they would say, "Oh, it 
doesn't make much difference about the commissioner. If he dis- 
charges us we will just appeal it." 

Mr. Prendergast. I don't know whether any of these captains have 
$5 or $5,000,000. There is no way I can find out. 

The Chairman. Is that important for you to know ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I would love to know\ 

Mr. Robinson. Isn't there any way that you can find out information 
in that respect ? 

Mr. Prendergast. The statistics that I mentioned. You will find 
some of them here before you get through. They don't talk. 

Mr. Halley. Some of these fellows have obvious wealth. 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes ; they have. 

Mr. Robinson. Is there no way you can check up on their homes ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I don't believe those homes were purchased dur- 
ing my time as commissioner. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, but they have them now. 

Mr. Prendergast. They have them. 

Mr. Halley. Who are the people that you know of your own knoAvl- 
edge who live well ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I know one has a beautiful home. There are 
captains in my department. I don't associate with them. 

Mr. Halley. Commissioner, you have the reputation of being a 
completely honest and hard-hitting law enforcement officer. You 
have lived in this city all your life, and you know the story. Who are 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 139 

the men with the rank of, say, lieutenant and higher in yonr force who 
must, from just mere observation, have other means of support than 
their salarj^ ^ 

Mr. Prendergast. I can honestly tell you I don't know. I don't 
know their private lives. I don't know where five of them live. 

Mr. Halley. You have mentioned one. Aren't there some others? 

Mr. Prendergast. I have a beautiful home, but it didn't cost me 
much. I paid $11,500 for it. The other day I refused $45,000 for it. 
I have a beautiful home. 

Mr. RoBixsox. I don't think it is probably your province to pry into 
the private lives of the men working for you, but it seems to me there 
should be some way that you can check to some extent on their accumu- 
lation of wealth that would seems to be a little bit inconsistent with the 
salary they receive as a police captain. 

Mr. Prex'dergast, I am not avoiding any responsibility. I don't 
want to avoid any responsibility. But up to the time of this reorgani- 
zation I had the entire police department on my shoulders. When I 
got assistants, I immediately put them to work. 

Mr. Halley. How about this fellow Goldberg ? Does he appear to 
have wealth '^ 

Mr. Prendergast. As far as I know, Goldberg lives in a hotel up on 
the North Side. He owns some property in Arizona, is that it? In 
Arizona. What he owns out there I don't know. AVhen he got it I 
don't know. It seems to me that he got that piece of property many 
years ago. I don't know just when he purchased it. He was out there 
about a month and a half ago or a month ago. 

But I don't know anything about Arizona. I don't know anything 
about Arizona property. 

Mr. Robinson; What precinct does he have ? 

Mr. Prendergast. He is at the thirty-seventh precinct. 

Mr. RoBiN^soN. Is that one of those you consider to be 

Mr. Prendergast. No, no. His district is changing. It is getting 
to be more of a hotel district. It has changed in the last 7 or 8 or 10 
years. 

Mr. RoBiNSOx". Do j^ou have any problem so far as interference with 
the police precinct captains' activities with respect to the ward com- 
mitteemen ? 

Mr. Prex'dergast. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do they attempt to exert any particular pressure on 
you insofar as the appointment of people to a particular precinct or 
ward ? 

Mr. Prex^dergast. No. sir. I was appointed commissioner under 
a former mayor, and I told him at that time, "I will take the position 
as commissioner provided you let me run it, because there is a lot of 
work to be done.'' I think we have made vast improvements. In 
fact, I know we have. 

Mr. Robinson. Here is another point I would like to discuss with 
you, Commissioner. I think the mayor touched on it in his statement. 
What is the extent of your police training? 

Mr. Prendergast. We have an extensive training course. Before I 
took over — do you want to take this off the record for a moment. 

(Off the record.) 

Mr. Prex-^dergast. It always has been my pet to bring policemen up 
to standard by presenting an educational program to them. Prior to 



140 ORGANIZED CRIMD IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

my takino; over, no captain, no lieutenant, no sergeant was ever given 
a departmental education, and I immediately started in, and some of 
the newspapers criticized me because I took the captain out on the 
floor in a drill hall and I put him through his drills. These captains 
didn't know the connnands. They didn't know how to handle a com- 
pany. So from that day on, we have had a continuous training pro- 
gram in the ]jolice department. 

Mr. I\OBiNsox. You conduct a regular training school *. 

Mr. PRENDEi'.GAST. A regular training school. It is not conducted 
entirely by the police department. We call for outside aid and as- 
sistance to present different subjects to the policemen. I have a 
laboratory clown there, and I consider it the Jbest laboratory in the 
\^'orld. That is really my pet. Police officials tliroughout the coun- 
try and throughout the world drop in to Chicago and say it is the 
greatest laboratory in the world. When I took over there were 300 
cases lying on the floors up there, no reports on them. I called the 
man in charge. We had the 300 cases cleaned up, and in about 45 
days I made another check and learned that he had 21) or 30 cases. 
Now you get a report from my laboratory in half an hour, 

Mr. Robinson. What number of policemen are sent from Chicago 
to the Federal Bureau Academy 'I 

Mr. Prendergast. Prior to ni}' taking over we had two men at the 
FBI school in Washington, and I have had a man at every session. In 
fact, the other day I received a message that the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation Avants to take over my last candidate that I liad there. 
They want him to join up with their forces, but I am not going to let 
him go. He is too valuable to me. When these men returned, prior 
to my taking over, they were sent to districts. The time, the money 
and the energy that were spent were just closeted among themselves. 
I have taken my men w'ho have finished the FBI school and sent them 
immediately into my training division. 

Mr. Robinson. To what extent do you have liaison with other police 
departments of other large cities ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Just through correspondence, that is all. 

Mr. Robinson. Is there no exchange of information? 

Mr. Prendergast. Very seldom. That is, they come into Chicago 
on trips for information. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you keep track in any way of these well-known 
hoodlums, when they depart from Chicago and go somewhere else^ 
Do you forward any information to the place that you suspect they 
are going to? 

Mr. Prendergast. We do not. 

Mr. Robinson. There is no watch or anything like that kept on 
them ? 

Mr. Prendergast. No. ^ 

Mr. Robinson. Do you think that there could be improvements in 
that direction? 

Mr. Prendergast. I think there should be a closer friendship be- 
tween the police departments in the country. You see, when we step 
outside our city line, we are lost. I really think this bill that you are 
about to present is going to do a lot of good for a city like Chicago at 
least 6 months of the year because locally we have in the Chicago area, 
not in Chicago proper, we have six race tracks, I believe, out on the 



ORGANIZED CRIM& IX INTERSTATE COMAIERCE 141 

outer ed^es, but tliev are closed down about this time and they won't 
open up for about ti months. I feel that with the passa<re of this le<,ns- 
lation. for 6 months we can center more activity on crime, altliou^ri 
as the mayor stated, our crime has decreased m Chicago over l.)4J 
We have ;is fine a statistical unit as there is m the country. U hen 1 
look over I called in the Federal Bureau of Investigation and I asked 
them to send a representative in here to bring up my crime report. L 
dare sav many of these captains were not reporting crimes m order 
to make it look good for themselves. Now we tell the captain how 
much crime is in his district. . 

]Mr. RoBixsoN. One thing that has come to our attention while w;e 
have been here is in connection with the pay-off to policemen. It is 
entirelv possible that a great deal of it is rumor, but it seems to me 
that it^is a rumor that persists. Is there any action that the police 
dei:>artment takes ^ Have they made a thorough investigation ? 

Mr. Prendekgast. When it is called to our attention we make an 
investigation. . 

Mr. KoBiNSON. How many instances have there been wlien it was 
called to your attention? . „ . , 

^Ir. Prexdergast. Very, very few. The only information we get 
about policemen accepting gratuities is from the automobilists, when 
a man driving his car is stopped by a motorcycle policeman. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't periodically initiate any investigation on 

your own ? , • x i v ^i 

^ Mr. Prendergast. Xo. I don't have the equipment. 1 haven t tlie 
equipment. Today I am working with 6,300 patrolmen m Chicago, 
and I would say about 250 of those men are sick, on the medical rolls, 
and the different details the mayor talked about this morning, men 
a Nef^ro family moves into an outside area, an entirely white area, it is 
necessary to send some 500 policemen out there for 24 hours, not for 
this building here, but for the surrounding area. 

We are very timid and I would say frightened about racial disturb- 
ances If a race riot ever starts iii Chicago there will be a tough 
time We have I would say over 500,000 Negroes in Chicago and that 
is what we are fearful of more than anything else. I would say the 
district from Twenty-second Street to Sixty-first Street, say Sixty- 
third Street, and from Windsor Avenue to Cottage Grove Avenue, is 
practically 100 percent Negro. If the Negro takes up arms and tries 
to move tiie white out of there, then we will have trouble. 

:^Ir. Robinson. Commissioner, you have been with the force and 
have been commissioner for some time. Would you care to state what 
you consider to be the defects in the system? 

Mr. Prendergast. In my system ? 

Mr. Robinson. And what you would recommend and what you may 
have recommended by way of improving the system '. 

Mr Prendergast. *If the city had the financial help, if they could 
give me help financially, I shoiild have 9,000 policemen in Chicago. 
^ The CHAiR:kiAN. How many do you have now ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Sixty-three hundred. In my division alone, i 
have over 1,000 men, and they are taken off the street. I am a firm be- 
liever in the old-time policemen who travels the post. As a youngster, 
I was born and raised in Chicago. I knew that policemen to travel 
that beat. If I was out after 10 o'clock at night he wanted to know 
why I am a firm believer in bringing back the old-time— not the old- 



142 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IKiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

time, but the old-time method of having the district properly policed 
with the man on foot, instead of automobile. I am afraid at times 
we go in too much to create a motorized department. With the size 
of Chicago, covering 212 square miles and over 31/2 million people, 
closer to 4 million, I would" say, with every nationality in the world 
within our borders, I think in order to do any kind of job at all, me or 
any other commissioner, we should have at least 9,000 policemen. I 
think the records last year showed that there were 384,000 broadcasts 
made out of my central complaint bureau. That is big business. 
Every one of those broadcasts was in connection with some kind of 
complaint for crime. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you think the salary basis is so low that you 
cannot attract good men? 

Mr. Prendergast. I can't attract them. I am losing men every day. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the rate of your turn-over? 

Mr. PfeENDERGAST. I would Say in the last month and a half I have 
lost 50 or 60 men who resigned to take other positions. 

Mr. Robinson. You consider that a high rate ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes, for resignations. Because there was always 
an incentive for a policeman in the police department. He looked 
forward to the day when he got his pension. In fact, that is what 
hooked me into the department. I looked forward to the day when 
1 got my pension. There was a feeling of security. But today they 
can go out in the field and get more money than a policeman, they can 
have reasonable hours, work days all the time, they are home with their 
wives practically all Saturday and Sunday. So the incentive is not 
there today to join the police department. I think, as the mayor said, 
with an increase in salary for the policemen we will create a new field. 
I dare say we have some very fine men in the department, men who 
are interested in the police department, interested in police work. 
We have college graduates. I located a boy — I call him a boy — one of 
my policemen out on the South Side when I reestablished the labora- 
tory, and I learned that he was a chemist. I sent after him, and I 
said, 'T want you to go into the laboratory." He said. 'T could never 
get in there before, but it is my life." Later on I found out, along 
with being a graduate chemist with a degree, he was also a lawyer and 
he was working for a patrolman's salary. I have given him a special 
assignment and a special salary over there. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you find any deficiencies in connection with the 
coordination of your department with the office of ihe sheriif and the 
State police? 

Mr. Prendergast. Of course the sheriff takes care of everything out- 
side of Cook County, and the State police very infrequently come into 
Chicago. 

Mr. Robinson. Does your office maintain liaison with those offices? 

Mr. Prendergast. We are very friendly. In fact, the head of the 
Illinois State police today is one of my captains on furlough, Tom 
O'Donnel. 

Mr. Robinson. I wasn't speaking so much. Commissioner, of friend- 
ship. Is there any mechanical, actual physical liaison with those 
offices ? 

Mr. Prendergast. No. 

Mr. Robinson. In other words, are you kept well posted on what the 
the sheriff's office is doing and do you keep him posted ? 



OBGAXIZED CRIAIE IN I>«'TER STATE C10M]VIERCE 143 

Mr. Prendergast. No; I do not. 

Mr. Robinson. This is a case of sort of dealing at arm's length? 

Mr. Prendergast. Most likely. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you think that is beneficial ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Of course, if I have anything that would interest 
the sheritf, I would innnediately acquaint him with it. On the other 
side, I know that he would do the same with me. As far as the State 
police are concerned, I don't believe they ever called at my office, 
except that man O'Donnel, who was appointed head of the State 
police. Of course, he was one of my captains. I dare say he is a very 
good captain. I think they made a very good selection. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you think the low pay of the police is quite an 
incentive to take money from some of these establishments ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I would say if they are doing it it is the princi- 
pal cause. 

Mr. Robinson. You say that is the principal cause ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I would say if they are doing it, that is the 
principal cause, because they have families. I know the mayor is 
very much interested in seeking funds from some source. He did go 
to Springfield to try to get some aid from Springfield and was 
refused. 

Mr. Robinson. Would you care to make any comment with respect 
to any problems you have with respect to the courts in Chicago? 

]\Ir. Prendergast. Of course, some of the courts are I think a little 
lenient. 

The Chairman. What is that. Commissioner? 

Mr. Prendergast. A little lenient. Of course, some of the raids — 
I was on the street myself for many years — some of the raids I made 
on gambling, houses of prostitution, I know that I didn't have a war- 
rant. When you haven't got a warrant, when you get your evidence 
illegally, the courts hold in many instances that you have no case. 
But at least I don't disregard that. I say, make the arrest. You are 
at least inconveniencing them. 

Mr. Robinson. That may be true, but let's take a case or any number 
of cases based on your experience where there was no question about 
the arrest being illegal, has there been a tendency on the part of the 
courts to be very lenient so far as the sentencing of gamblers or peo- 
ple running gambling establishments or houses of prostitution and so 
forth? 

Mr. Prendergast. There may be. In my estimation, it is a little bit 
lenient. Of course I am looking at it as a policeman, not as a judge. 

Mr. Robinson. Your feeling is that if they were a little stricter in 
their sentencing, it would be beneficial to your force and not be so 
demoralizing? 

Mr. Prendergast. I would like that. I would love it. I think it 
would raise the standards of your police department or other depart- 
ments, the sheriff's office. 

Mr. Robinson. In other words it wouldn't be so discouraging to the 
policeman. 

Mr. Prendergast. It is discouraging at times. As I said before, I 
worked on the street. It was mighty discouraging when you worked 
for maybe 7 or 8 or 10 days on a certain case, then to walk in and the 
judge say, "Discharged." It is discouraging. 



144 ORGAKIZED CRIMEi IN INfTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mv. Robinson. Does your office, Commissioner, liave any statistics 
on the number of unsolved crimes in Chicago ? 

Mr. Prexdergast. Oh, yes. For what period? 

Mr. Robinson. Over a period of 25 or 80 years. I think that might 
be of some vahie to the committee on a comparative basis. 

Mr. Prendergast. I ]:)icked that up. I just made some notes up 
here [handing paper to Mr. Robinson]. 

Mr. Robinson. I think this might possibly be made a part of the 
record, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. All right, this will be made a part of the record. 
These are comparative figures for the first 10 months of 1949 and 1950, 
showing a decrease of 636 crimes. Is this the number of crimes 
reported or what ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Number of crimes reported, sir. 

The Chairman. Let this be made an exhibit. 

(The information referred to is identified as exhibit No. 24, and is 
on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. What we wanted was over the last 10 or 15 years, 
the number and the names of any of the unsolved murders, say. 

Mr. Prendergast. I can get that for you. 

The Chairman. All right, sir, if you will. 

Mr. Prendergast. Ten years ? 

The Chairman. I think 10 years would be sufficient. 

How long have you been commissioner of police ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I became commissioner January 1, 1946. It 
was the only mistake I ever made in the police department. 

Tlie Chairman. When you became commissioner ? 

]\Ir. Prendergast. Yes. 

The Chairman. What were you right before you were commis- 
sioner ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I have held every position in the police depart- 
ment.- I was patrolman, sergeant, lieutenant, captain, and at one time 
we had a supervising captain, an office of supervising captain, and I 
was appointed supervising captain. Later on I was appointed chief 
of the uniformed force, and then into the commissioner's office. I will 
say this — and I am under oath here — I have never given anybody a 
cigar. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the present salary of a captain on the force? 

Mr. Prendergast. $5,226. 

Mr. Robinson. Are promotions on the force subject to civil-service 
rules and regulations ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Is there ever any influence exerted on you to get 
people promoted ? 

Mr. Prendergast. No. Of course I have passed on very few exam- 
inations. My only part in the examinations is creating the efficiency. 
I gather up my material. Every 6 months we prepare a report which is 
known as the props report. They are all patrolmen. I took the props 
reports for 31/2 years, and then I took the dismissals, discharges, sus- 
pensions, creditable mentions, and one time we gave extra compensa- 
tion for extra meritorious work, and I drew up a balance from that. 
I think it was a very fair way. 

Mr. Robinson. Commissioner, would you care to make any obser- 
vations about the Drury shooting? I have in mind particularly if 
you think there is any way that the committee can help. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 145 

Mr. Prendergast. I knew Dniry. When he ^Yas a reinstated man 
to the department all of my district stations were filled, so I assigned 
him to mnrders that were not cleared up. Drury was the most peculiar 
sort of fellow. I would say he was sort of egotistical m his ways. 

Mr. Robinson. Is there any particular reason why you assigned him 
to that function? i . -^ 

Mr. Prendergast. No, I just had him left over. I thought it 
Avould he a great thing for him to do, to come back as a new captain 
after being discharged, if he could go out in the field and clear up 
some of these murders. That was my thought. In fact. I was giving 
him something, if I were discharged, that I would just have loved 
to be given that opportunity on murders that were not cleared up. 

I^Ii-r Robinson. Do vou think he had any particular qualifications 

for that? 

^Ir. Prendergast. I never worked with him. He was never as- 
signed to any station that I was assigned to. I thought he could 
do some work in that field. 

Mr. Robinson. AVas Connelly assigned at the same time ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Connelly and Drury were together. 

jMr. Robinson. Did he have any particular qualihcations for that 
assionment ? 

Mr. Prendergast. They were what I would call a fair team, one 
]~»rooTessive and the other standing back looking over the situation. 
If you place two men together, assign two men together, and if they 
are both of the same temperament and the same make-up, as a rule 
they don't make, good detectives. I like one slow and plodding and 
then an energetic man alongside of him. 

Mv. Robinson. Had thev been in detective work prior to that? 

Mr. Prendergast. Oh, yes. They had been in the detective bureau 
for many, many years, I think. 

Mr. R"obinson.' Did they ever produce any results ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Oh,' they arrested quite a few around Chicago. 

Mr. RoBixsox. No, I mean did they ever unravel any of the unsolved 
murders, the job to which they w^ere assigned ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I wouldn't say. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Anything else, Mr. Robinson? 

Mr. Prendergast. I would like to make a little statement about 
this narcotics situation. That is very bad in Chicago, especially 
among our colored. As I said this morning, the average age of the 
narcotic user other than colored is about 24. I do know that the 
armed services won't take the user. AVe just have to think about it. 
I did appear before a committee from Springfield, and I asked that 
the laws be c'hanged in the State of Illinois. I think that will be 
presented at the next session, making it a felony for any peddler of 
narcotics to sell to a minor. 

The CiiAiRMAx. VTimt happened to your recommendation ? 

Mr. Prendergast. That is in the course now. 

The Chairman. The law was changed? 

Mr. Prendergast. No; it is to be presented at the next session in 

Springfield. ■, n -, ■, j- q 

The Chairman. Why didn't it get past when you had it up before ? 
Mr. Prendergast. They haven't had a session since then. It is a 

new law. 



146 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. What can the Congress do about the narcotic 
matter ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I don't know. I think it is a big qriestion. As 
was stated this morning, once a user, always a user. In my younger 
days I knew quite a few users, and I never knew one of them who got 
away. They may get away from marihuana, and they may get away 
from morphine, but when they start to cocaine or heroin, they never 
get away from it. I just dropped that in for some consideration by 
this committee. 

Mr. Robinson. Along that line what I was going to ask is, Do you 
think that your own narcotics squad and the number of Federal agents 
there are assigned here in Chicago to narcotics is sufficient to cope 
with the situation? 

Mr. Prendergast. I say this about the Federal agents : I don't think 
there are enough Federal agents in Chicago. As I understand it, they 
have three or four States to look after. The Federal agents in Chicago 
should number at least 40. We ran into a lead that led us into the 
peddler — my figures may be a little wrong on this, but as I recall it, 
we picked up 37 peddlers one night. Of course we set a zero hour for 
them and the narcotics agents worked very close with us. At one 
minute we all stepi^ed in, and we drew in 37 peddlers. I am just 
dropping that to you because I know what it is going to mean to our 
American kids. 

The Chairman. Commissioner, I have just two or three very brief 
questions. Do you want to tell us about any clue as to whether you 
think our committee work was in any way responsible for the killing 
of Drury or this fellow Bas? 

Mr. Prendergast. I don't think the Drury and Bas cases are asso- 
ciated at all. 

The Chairman. I mean, do you think either one of them 

Mr. Prendergast. At this time I couldn't say. I have 58 men work- 
ing on those two cases, and if anything develops that will interest the 
committee I will immediately contact Mr. Robinson. 

The Chairman. We would appreciate it. 

Do you have a separate racket squad to get at these rackets which 
is over tlie ward policemen, the ward chief, or is everything handled 
by the ward chief ? 

Mr. Prendergast. No. We have a detective bureau. 

The Chairman. I mean, do they have city-wide jurisdiction? 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes. 

The Chairman. Suppose a ward policeman was accepting graft to 
protect some gambling in his ward, would this detective bureau auto- 
matically and systematically check what was going on in that ward 
from time to time? 

Mr. Prendergast. No. I have a special squad working out of my 
office consisting of three men. They do my work for me. 

The Chairman. Don't you think that you might have difficulty dis- 
covering a situation in a particular ward unless you did have somebody 
who made a general check over the city instead of just being concen- 
trated in one particular ward? 

Mr. Prendergast. If I had the manpower, I would love it. 

The Chairman. It would be a good idea if you had it. 

Mr. PRENDERtiAST. AVliat I sliould have in my department is 10 men, 
trained investigators. That is what I should have, not policemen. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 147 

The CiiAiRMAx. Just let them range the whole city. 

Mr. Prexdergast. That is what I need. 

The Chairman. As it is now, you are dependent upon the precinct 
•captain, and if he goes bad, then you are in bad shape in that precinct ; 
is that correct ? 

]Mr. Prexdergast. That is correct. 

The Chairmax. How about political interference with your work 
in the police department ^ 

Mr. Prexdergast. Not in my work. I have only one boss. 

The Chairmax. I mean, are there efforts by politicians of either 
party or any party to interfere with your work? 

]Mr. Prexdergast. I can answer that question by saying nobody in- 
terferes with my work. I work for one man and work for one man 
alone, and that is the mayor of the city of Chicago. 

The Chairmax. How about trying to interfere? Do they try to 
interfere with you? 

]Mr. Prexdergast. Xo, no. 

The Chairmax-^. Of course you are speaking for yourself. How 
about your ward captains? 

Mr. Prex-^dergast. I can't answer that. 

The Chairmax-^. Do they report to you when there is an attempted 
interference by politicians? 

Mr. Prex'dergast. No, sir; none of them ever have. There never 
lias been any report suomitted to me either verbally or otherwise. 

The Chairmax. They are supposed to report to you if anything like 
that happens? 

Mr. Prexdergast. That is right, but they haven't reported. 

The Chairman. Is there a standing order that they should report? 

Mr. Prex'dergast. They haven't reported. 

The Chairman. Somebody this morning indicated that up to about 
31/^ years ago you could walk in plush gambling casinos right here in 
the city, but that the situation has changed. \Vhat is the difference 
now? 

Mr. Prex'dergast. The situation has changed in this way, that today 
they have opened what we call wdre rooms. 

The Chairman'. You were the commissioner of i^olice 31^ or 4 3'ears 
ago. How did that get by then ? 

Mr. Prex'^dergast. No, not since I have been commissioner. Im- 
mediately when I took over I started out to knock them over. 

The Chairman. What has the situation changed to, you say? 

Mr. Prendergast. AVhere the newsboy, cigar store, bartender in a 
tavern will take a bet, and he has a telephone number and he calls up, 
registers the bet or the wager. That is the reason for all these tele- 
phones coming up. The mayor said this morning that in one place 
over on the West Side we took out 30 telephones. I understand the 
telephone company, directly associated with the telephone company, 
removed many more. I reported to the telephone company. My men 
have orders when they run into telephones or a wire room immediately 
to call the telephone company. The telephone company sends a repre- 
sentative out there and picks up the phones. 

The Chairmax. If you make a charge, then they do remove the 
phones ? 

Mr. Prexdergast. Thev have been very cooperative. 



148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN IN/TERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Have they been cooperative all aloiif^ or just here 
recently ? 

Mr, Prendergast. Oh, no, since I took over. I think we have taken 
out over 2,000 phones in the last — 2,039 telephones were removed since 
1947. 

The Chairman. You said that some bill would help you with your 
Avork if the Federal Government or Congi-ess passed it. Were you 
referring to at least slowing down the use of the wire service in giving^ 
racing information ? Is that the bill you were referring to ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I don't think a gambler can operate 

The Chairman. Is that the bill you were referring to ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes. 

The Chairman. You think gamblers would have a harder time 
operating ^ 

Mr. Prendergast. It would help for about 6 months of the year 
when the local race tracks are closed. The minute the local race tracks 
open, then I suppose we have another problem. 

The Chairman. We would be glad if you would consider all these 
recommendations that we are considering and give us any further 
recommendations about them. 

Mr. Prendergast. I have so told Mr. Robinson. 

Mr. Halley. I have a few questions. 

Do you know of any evidence or have you an opinion as to whether 
the Capone group of gangsters or their successors are still operating 
in any fashion in Chicago ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I have no personal knowledge. I have nothing 
in my reports to indicate that they are. 

Mr. Halley. Do you believe that there is still such a thing as a 
Capone syndicate ? 

Mr. Prendergast. I would say that a certiiin element may be 
operating in Chicago and the Chicago area. 

Mr. Halley. Where would you think they would be operating, 
in what field? Where would you advise this committee to look? 

Mr. Prendergast. Whether it is a subterfuge or not I don't know, 
but the so-called fellows who are named in tlie papers and don't 
bear a good reputation have gone into many legitimate fields. 

Mr. Halley. Are they in the w^ire service, the racing wire service? 

Mr. Prendergast. I would think they were. 

Mr. Halley. Were you police commissioner when Ragen was 
murdered ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. That murder was tied in with the war between the 
Trans- American and Continental wire services, is that right? 

Mr. Prendergast. I think it was ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who were the people in Trans- American at that time ? 
Did you ever find out? 

Mr. Prendergast. I think 'I have something on it. 

Mr. Halley. Were there any of the Capone mobstei-s in it? 

Mr. Prendergast. I think I can get you some information on that. 
I think I have some information. 

Mr. Halley. That would be very important information. Would 
you prefer to give us that information after you have checked your 
files? 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149 

Mr. Prendergast. I want you to know that anything that I have in 
my files is open to you. 

Mr. Hallet. All I mean is, I assume you don't have it at the tip 
of your tongue and you want to wait until you find it. 

The Chairman. We certainly would appreciate it if you would 
give Mr. Robinson what you have. 

Mr. Prexderoast. Certainly I will give it to Mr. Kobinson. 

Mr. H alley. Commissioner, what otlier legitimate enterprises do 
you think tlie Capone gang is in today ;' 

Mr. Prexdergast. 1 undei-stand some are in the real estate business 
and some are in the liening business. I understand some of them are 
in the water business and others are in the towel business. 

Mr. Halley. Have you a list or could you get us a list? 

Mr. Prexdergast. I will get you anything you want. 

Mr. Halley. I mean do you have that information? 

Mr. Prexdergast. Anything I have. 'If I don't have it, I think I 
am in a position to get vrhat you want. 

The CiiAiRMAX'. Do you have a list of the names of people who are 
alleged or believed to be in the towel business, in the water business 
and so forth ? 

Mr. Prexdergast. That list was published in the newspapers here 
shortly after you opened up. and I immediately assigned it to my 
chief of detectives to make a check on each and every one of them. 

Mr. Halley. For instance. Humphreys is in the towel business and 
Ralph Capone in the water business. 

Mr. Prexdergast. Did you see that ^ 

Mr. RoBix'sox". Something was published. 

Mr. Prex'dergast. I immediately checked that. 

The Chairmax^. Will you have them furnish us for our record what 
they have up to date ? 

Mr. Prexdergast. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any information at all. Commissioner, 
about the ^Nlafia? 

Mr. Prexder(;ast. No. Years ago, of course, I knew a little about 
the Unione Siciliano. Was that it ? 

Mr. Halley. We have had some testimony that in Chicago the 
Unione Siciliano at least took some legitimate and open form as a 
fraternal organization. 

Mr. Prexi)er(jast. Years ago I worked at the Chicago Avenue dis- 
trict. That is the district where Harrison is. In those days there was 
quite an Italian — Sicilian, I will say, not Italian, because I know some 
very fine Italians in this city. But there was a crowd of Sicilians over 
around Oak and Cambridge and there were so many deaths over there 
that it got to be known as death corner. 

Mr. Halley. Was there such a thing as a IMafia or a Unione Siciliano 
operating? 

Mr. Prexdergast. They always referred to it as that. But of course 
they were all sealed. In fact, one day we had a murder over there, a 
boy was walking down Oak Street with his father at 12 o'clock noon, 
and they shot the father down. The boy didn't see anything, the son. 
I said to him, "That is your father. Please give us something on it." 
He said nothing. He was walking down the street with his father. 

The Chairmax^. When was that ? 



150 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Pkendergast. Oh, that was around 1915 or 1918. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any files at all on it ? 

Mr. Pkendergast. We had a squad here known as the Black Hand» 
I suppose most of those fellows are dead now. 

Mr. Halley. Are there any left who might give us some information 
on the Black Hand operation? 

Mr. Pkendergast. I will check. I think most of them are dead. 

Mr. Halley. If there are any at all we would like to know about 
them. 

Mr. Pkendergast. I will check on it. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

The Chairman. In that connection, Commissioner. DeLucia or 
Ricca, whatever his name is, testified that not so very long ago — we 
could give you the exact street — the Unione Siciliano, which he de- 
scribed as being the fraternal insurance organization, and he paid 
money into the organization and they got some kind of insurance 
protection, which did have meetings on occasions, had an office on one 
of the main streets here where people went and left their money just 
as if they were operating an insurance company. Do you know any- 
thing about that? 

Mr. Prendergast. It may be operated, Unione Siciliano, under a 
legitimate surroundings. 

The Chairman. Do we have the record of the testimony of these 
fellows taken in AVashington ? 

Mr. Halley, Yes, we have. 

The Chairman. Let's get that. 

Commissioner, we would be' very grateful if you coidd have your 
detective force check this place and see if it is still being operated. 

Mr. Robinson. That would be in DeLucia's testimony. 

Did you ever hear of the name of John Bolger or Bulger in con- 
nection with the Unione Siciliano ? 

Mr. Pkendergast. It seems to me I have. I heard it in some con- 
nection. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you loiow who he is ? 

Mr. Pkendergast, I can find out. 

Mr. Robinson. It is B-u-1-g-e-r. 

Mr. Pkendergast. That is not his right name. 

Mr. Kerner. It is Joseph Imburgio. 

Mr. Prendergast. It wouldn't be Bulger. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Phil D'Andrea ? 

Mr. Prendergast. Just by reputation. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever know his father? 

Mr. Prendergast. No. 

The Chairman. Commissioner, here is what Mr. DeLucia said 
about it : 

Did you ever hear of the Unione Siciliano? 

Yes, but that has been changed to either the Italian-American Union — 

Then he goes on to say that the Unione Siciliano was a society, 
that when he was in it Joe Bulger was the president, Ferreta was the 
secretary, and Cocia was something else; that he thinks the address 
was 111 Washington Street. He said they had a number of lodges in 
Chicago. He said it is still operating on Washington Street. Before 
that they were on State Street. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 151 

We would appreciate it if you can get any information on that. 
Mr Prendergast. You want a check made on the Unione bicihano i 
' The Chairman. Yes, sir. Or its name may be changed to this 

Mr' Halley. My guess, Conmiissioner, would be that any files on 
your old Black Hand squad would be the place where we might find 
the most interesting information. n , i t 

Mr. Prendergast. The old Black Hand squad was broken up. i 
would say, maybe in 1923. ' « • , -o, i 

Mr. Halley. That is all right. Any arrests, for instance, Black 
Hand arrests, that you can show us, for instance a group of people 
arrested in a batch for Black Hand, would provide names that I 
think would be of great interest to the committee today. 

Mr. Prendergast. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Going back even to 1910. 

Mr. Prendergast. You would have to go back to 1910. 

Mr Halley. It proved verv helpful in Kansas City. 

Mr Prendergast. I would say about 1917 or 1918 is when I was 
assigned to that district over there. It was my thought I would love 
to clean up a Black Hand case, but I was never successful. I think I 
cleared up every other case on the books, but not a Black Hand case. 
I came close to 'it several times. 

Jklr. Robinson. I think we would be interested m whether or not 
Phil b'Andrea's father appeared at that time to be involved m any 

way. . , . . ,. 

The Chairman. Any more questions now of the commissioner ? 

Commissioner, we appreciate your willingness to get all of this in- 
formation for us and your apeparance here. We will be in touch with 
you from time to time. If there are any other matters that you think 
of that will be of help to us, we will welcome your assistance and your 
suggestions. . 

]Mr. Prendergast. I want vou to know that any assistance i can give 
you will be forthcoming. It won't be necessary to ask a second time. 

Mr. Halley. I want to say for the record I understand from George 
Robinson that the commissioner has been most helpful at all times. 

]Mr. Robinson. We have received fine cooperation from him. 

The Chairman. We appreciate your help to Mr. Robinson and this 

committee. . , , , 

Mr. Robinson. I think as our investigation gets on we will probably 
be seeing more and more of you. . 

The Chairman. Thank you. Commissioner. We will be m touch 
with you from time to time. 

Mr.' Prendergast. Thank you, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. All right, gentlemen. We have to move on here. 

Mr. Boyle, my associates here say I am always rushing them. Mr. 
Robinson? 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF JOHN S. BOYLE. STATE'S ATTORNEY, 
COOK COUNTY, ILL. 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Bovle. I think probably it would be informative 
if you would discuss briefly to the committee what the functions of 
your office are and how it is organized. i . , -r i i 

Mr. Boyle. We operate under the 1870 constitution which I told 
you about before. The State's attorney of this county handles all 



152 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COAIMERCE 

criminal eases ,all misdemeanors. We also have a civil branch in which 
we handle all tax cases in the county. That is, real-estate taxes and 
personal proj^erty taxes. Under this consitution we represent every 
elected county otlicial, the sheriiT. county commissioners, the county 
treasurer, and I am the attorney for all these elected officials. In ad- 
dition to that, of course we have the juvenile court where we have 
assistant attorneys. We have 1121 South State Street Police Building 
where we have seven assistants. We have the criminal building at 
Twenty-sixth and California. 

As I said before, this county has a poi)ulati(Mi of about 4,700.000 
people. In order to give you a picture of the county, if you will for- 
give me for just a moment, if you can visualize this table as being 
the city of Chicago within the center of the county, outside in the 
county, in what we call the country towns, live 1,000,000 people. We 
have Villages of 70,000 population. Each one of those villages has 
its own police department. They have their own village govern- 
ments or citv governments. The city of Evanston has 70,000 ; Cicero 
has 67,000. ^ The village I live in, Oak Park, has about 66,000 people. 
Then we have Berwin with about 55,000 people. They are really 
cities outside of Chicago within the county area. We prosecute all 
cases within the corporate limits of the county. The county has 800 
square miles. It is the largest county in the United States. I be- 
lieve we have the biggest law office in the United States. We have 
99 assistant State's attornej^s. 21 assigned to civil work, and those 
civil cases involve cases sometimes as much as $1,000,000 or $2,000,000, 
which go to the United States Supreme Court, We file claims in the 
Federal court over here on receiverships and bankruptcies, and in- 
volving the Chicago Transit Authority. We have had several cases 
of that type. 

Each year our grand jury returns 3,000 indictments on felonies 
and a few misdemeanors M'hicli come from country towns. As I told 
you, we have a oO-day grand jury. We have a law in this State, 
under a case which I tried, People v. Umhle^ii, which holds that any 
man charged with a crime must be tried within 4 months from the 
date of arrest. If he is in jail, he doesn't have to make a demand 
for trial, but if he is out on bond he must make a demand in writing 
within that period of time. If you don't try him within 4 months 
from the date of arrest, not the date of indictment but the date of 
arrest, then he goes free. We haven't had anybody discharged under 
that 4-month term. At the beginning of this court term we had 400 
indictments pending, which is a little over a month's work. Our 
conviction rate for the calendar year September 1949 to S?ptember 
1950 was 92 percent. We got convictions in 92 percent of our cases. 
That average holds true in the criminal counts. 

Under the statute and under the law, the State's attorney of this 
county is merely supposed to present evidence to a grand jury or he 
is supposed to present cases to a court or to a jury. 

Mr. Robinson. In other words, you do no investigative work until 
a charge has been made. 

Mr. Boyle. That is what the duty of the State's attorney is, but 
we have gone beyond that. Approximately 40 percent of our crimes 
arraigned before the chief justice of the criminal court are people who 
have lived here less than 90 days. Chicago is the greatest railroad 
center in the country, and the same trains which bring people in for 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153 

conventions and business meetings are the same trains that bring you. 
When Jndae Harrington was our chief justice 3 years ago it ran 44 
percent. He kept a complete record of that. They had been here 
for less than 90 days. The police in Chicago don't know who they 
are or their records until they make an arrest, of course. Then, of 
course, we have 48 percent of our crime committed by colored people. 
We have a tremendous colored population here. 

Mr. Robinson. Does your office make any investigation on its own 
initiative!' 

Mr. Boyle. Yes; we do at times. 

Mr. KoBiNSON. Is that infrequent? 

Mr. Boyle. We liave assigned to our office about 76 police officers 
of the city of Cliicago to do investigative work. Of course when we 
(ret a case we must investigate it in order to get all the witnesses avail- 
able for the trial. 

Mr. E.0BINS0N. How many officers in the police department? 

Mr. BoY-LE. Seventy-six. 

Mr. Robinson. Under whom do they operate ? 

Mr. BoYLE. They operate under Captain Gilbert, who is our chief 
investigator. 

^Ir. Robinson. He is under your direction ? 

Mr. Boyle. Under my direction; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. He doesn't come under the direction of the com- 
missioner? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; he does not. He is loaned to the State's attorney s 
office and his salarv is set up in the county budget. His pay as a 
police captain is turned back to the city of Chicago. He gets paid 
by the county. 

Mr. Robinson. That is appointive office? 

Mr. Boyle. That is an appointive office ; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. By the mayor ? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; by the State's attorney. 

Mr. Robinson. How does your office operate vis-a-vis the attorney 
general's office? 

Mr. Boyle. The attorney general's office handles all appeals with 
our office. In other words, all appeals of criminal cases where we. 
get a conviction, the attorney general joins in with us, and those cases 
go directly to our supreme' court. Our police department handles 

that. ^ ^ ... , 

:Mr. Robinson. Can the attorney general suspend the activities of a 
State's attorney so far as any particular investigation is concerned 
and operate on his own ? 

Mr. Boyle. I suppose he has that power. He never has that I know 
of, not here at least. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether he has in other areas where 
there are State's attorneys ^ 

Mr. Boyle. He has not. 

Mr. Robinson. In other words, he has no supervisory power over 
you ? 

Mr. Boyle. No; none at all. We take it upon ourselves to send 
police out when there are an;^ labor troubles of any kind. I think we 
liave the best labor relations in the country in this area. We recently 

68958— 51— pt. 5 11 



154 ORGANIZED CRIMD IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

had a case where some fellows from the United Eleccrical Workers 
started a riot and beat up some men. We indicted and tried them 
and convicted them. 

In addition to the duties of tryin^r these criminal cases which come 
into our office, we started November 1, lO-tO, on our own, to go out 
and make raids on places that had slot machines. Since November of 
1949 we have confiscated and destroyed 564 slot machines. 

Mr. Halley. Would that be a duty that you would take on because 
other law enforcement agencies failed to do it ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat agencies would have the first responsibility ? 

Mr. Boyle. The sheriff of Cook County is supposed to do that. It 
wasn't being done and we knew there were slot machines out in the 
county, so we sent our men out night after night and made these raids 
and confiscated 564 slot machines. In those cases every time we made a 
raid the man was fined $100, and the slot machine was confiscated. We 
felt a syndicate was operating with these slot machines, at a cost to them 
of about $350,000 or $400,000 during that period of time. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you find in the course of those raids that the per- 
son from whom the slot machine was confiscated was the OAvner of the 
machine ? 

Mr. Boyle. In many instances we found that was not true. They 
at least said they didn't own them and they were forced upon them. 
They won't tell us who brought them in or who serviced them. They 
walk into court and take their $100 fine and plea of guilty. They plead 
guilty. 

The Chairman. Is that the maximum fine ? 

Mr. Boyle. That is the maxinunn fine on first offense. On the 
second offense you can fine them up to $500. 

Mr. Robinson. Is mere possession of the machine illegal ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. In our opinion, it is ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Boyle, after the man has taken liis conviction and 
his fine, and therefore is no longer in jeopardy, would it be legally pos- 
sible to take him before a grand jury and just make him tell who put 
the machine in ? 

Mr. Boyle. Then he would refuse to testify on the ground he would 
incriminate himself. 

Mr. Halley. How could he after he had paid the fine ? 

Mr. Boyle. I think maybe we should do that. 

Mr. Robinson. Would you furnish us with the names of all these 
men from whom machines were confiiscated and who would not tell 
where they got them? 

Mr. Boyle. Oh, yes. We have their names and the places. 

The Chairman. Give us 8 or 10 of the most notorious ones, maybe 
second offenders or what not. 

Mr. Boyle. I will give you that list. 

The Chairman. We would like the entire list of course. 

Mr. Boyle. We will give you the entire list. We will furnish you 
with the entire list. 

Mr. Boyle. In addition to that where gambling was operating in 
country towns and we would warn them over a period of time to 
cease gambling, we would also send a letter to the sheriff of Cook 
County that gambling was operating, and if it didn't stop we indicted 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE OOMMEBCE 155 

the chief of police. We indicted the chief of police of Calumet City. 
He was tried by a jury in the criminal court. To give you an idea how 
jurors react sometimes, he admitted that gambling wiis going was 
going on in the city. He said he had a small police force and he had 
to police the school crossings. Because of the taverns — I think there 
were 200 in a village of 20,000 people, which paid a license fee of $4:00 
apiece — because of this income he said they had the lowest tax rate 
in our county. The people wanted that sort of thing out there and 
the jury found him not guilty. 

Mr. Robinson. When was that ? 

Mr. Boyle. I can get you the exact date. I dont have it. 

Mr. Robinson. xVpproximately. 

Mr. Boyle. Several months ago. We also tried the chief of po- 
lice 

Mr. Robinson. What was his name? 

Mr. Boyle. I don't know whether I have it or not. It is a long- 
Polish name. I think I have it here. Just a minute. I will get that 
in just a second. We also tried the chief of police of Melrose Park 
and indicted him. His name was Wigglesorth. That is where this 
famous Lumber Gardens was supposed to be operating, owned by the 
DeGrazia brothers. After several warnings he was indicated and 
tried in criminal court and he was found not guilty. AVe moved heaven: 
and earth to get conviction in both of these cases. In Cicero we had 
the chief of police of Cicero before the grand jury, named Martin 
Wojiahowski. The grand jury told them they were given 10 days 
in which to clean up Cicero and in the meantime he resigned and 
another police chief took his place, Christopher Rooney, who is a very 
good police officer, according to reports. He had been to the FBI 
school. He was veiy good, according to reports. 

On labor relations out at Cicero, where they had several uprisings, 
he handled it very well. We sent for him because he didn't suppress 
gambling in Cicero, and he resigned. We now have a third chief of 
police in the village of Cicero. 

We apprise every chief of police of countr}' towns as to where gam- 
bling places are located. My fellows go out, these investigators, and 
check, and find gambling. It is easy to find it. What they do is ride 
around and see a bunch of cars parked in front of some tavern in 
the afternoon. So they pull in and that is where it is. That is where 
they are getting bets. It is that simple. 

Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true, Mr. Boyle, that most of the slot ma- 
chines are manufactured in Chicago ? 

Mr, Boyle. That is true ; yes. 

Mr. Robinson, Do you find in the course of j'our raids any bills of 
sale from these manufacturers to the place where you raid ? 

]\Ir, Boyle. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Is it your opinion that these are contraband 
machines ? 

Mr. Boyle. They are contraband ; jes. 

Mr, Robinson. In other words, are they brought from some plac^ 
outside the State? 

Mr. Boyle, Oh, I don't know about that; no. There is Mills 
Novelty. Most of them are Mills. Mr. Halley looked at some of them. 
We had some Jennings. Then we have these great big consoles. They 



156 ORGATS'IZED CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

are probably Avorth a thousand dollars apiece. We have any number 
of those. 

Mr. Halley. Before we pass the slot machines, would you very 
briefly, because it is a very involved matter, tell the committee about 
the problem you had in getting testimony from the members of the 
Tam OVShanter Golf (^lub? 

Mr, Boyle. Tam O'Shanter Country Club was su])posed to be a 

{)rivate club operated by a maiTi by the name of George S. May. We 
lad rumors that there were slot machines there and there was 
gambling. So on July 4 we made a raid, and we arrested May and 
we got 27 slot machines in that place. Then the grand jury sent 
for the books and records. They refused to bring the books and 
records. They defied the grand jury. Judge Miner held a fellow by 
the name of Ryan in contempt of court. He admitted he had the 
books, but he wouldn't bring them in. He lield him in contempt of 
court and sentenced him to 6 months in jail. In addition to that, 
he held in abeyance and continued the other cases until next February, 
with the understanding that whatever outcome this case had in our 
supreme court he would decide the other cases. Some of those other 
men were businessmen of high caliber and high standing in the com- 
munity. They were officers of this club. We know that May owns 
the golf grounds, the grounds on which the club is located. That is 
one corporation. Another corporation operates the golf club. They 
pay him $75,000 a year for the use of the grounds. He is supposed to 
have amassed a fortune. During the course of our investigation we 
also discovered that many years ago he was convicted and sent to the 
penitentiary for embezzlement. He is supposed to be an industrial 
engineer and to have a Nation-wide business and to be a very re- 
spectable member of the community. 
Mr. Halley. Is that the May Col ? 
Mr. Boyle. George S. May." 

Mr. Halley. Is that the George S. May that was convicted? 
Mr. Boyle. Many years ago. 

Mr. Halley. He was convicted in the Tam O'Shanter case ? 
Mr. Boyle. No, no. He is in the Tam O'Shanter case. 
The Chairman. He was convicted of embezzlement some years ago. 
Mr. Boyle. Some years ago ; yes. It is something nobody knows 
anything about. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any evidence that, while slot machines were 
not available to the operators of other clubs, the Tam O'Shanter Club 
was apparently being able to get and keep its slot machines? 

]Mr. Boyle. There are a lot of clubs around Chicago, privately 
owned golf clubs, wdio own their own slot machines, or did. We felt 
there was no connection with any syndicate or anything of that kind. 
They owned the slot machines and they had them in their clubs for 
their use of their members. I sent letters to all of the clubs and told 
them it was illegal to have a slot machine and to take them down, 
^riiat was after there were some hold-ups. Several of them were held 
up. The pressure was on them so bad when we were taking all these 
hundreds of machines that they had to get them someplace. So they 
went out and held up these clubs and took the machines away from 
them. We tried to trace numbers, but the numbers of all of them had 
Leen cMaeled off. We keep a record in J. P. courts of the iiumbers of 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 157 

all slot machines confiscated by the sheriff as well as our office. He 
hasn't had many since November, since we started to do this work 
I don't know of any that he has had. The numbers have been chipped 
off of everv one of the slot machines. 

]SIr. RoBixsoN. Do you have any suspicious as to who was concluct- 
ing those hokl-ups ^ . , 

Mr Boyle. No; we haven't. We have worked on it for months. 
There are certain license numbers that we have traced and they are 
faulty license numbers. _ 

Mi\ Robinson. Have you any indication at all, however tlimsy, tliat 

Vogel was in back of it % 

]\[r. Boyle. Who^ 

Mr. RoBiNSOx. Vogel. t ^ p 

Mr B')YLF It is mv humble opinion that some syndicate of some 
sort was in back of it'because they wouldn't touch the persons in the 
place They wouldn't touch their money or their pocket books, i liey 
would say, Ve are not bothering vou. We want those slot machines 
and that is all we want. That is all they took. I guess the theory was 
that that wasn't robbery. 

Mx. Robinson. These were the clubs that were owners and opera- 
tors of the machines? T 1 1 AT 

I^lr. Boyle. Where a group of board of directors ran the club. Wo 
individual ran it. 

JSIr. Robinson. The club owned the machines. 

Mr Boyle. Tbev owned the machines ; that is right. 

^Ir. Robinson, that is not the usual practice here ; is it, where they 
own the machines \ 

Mr. Boyle. Yes, private clubs. 

Mr. Robinson. I was under the impression that the usual practice 
w^as that outside people took a certain percentage of the operations. 

Mr Boyle. Nothing like that at all. Wlien they startecl to move 
in to take the percentage and also started to take slot machines, then 
we knocked them down all over the county. All clubs went down. 

Mr. Robinson. Wasn't it true in the Tarn O'Shanter case 

Mr. Boyle. They didn't go down. 

Mr Robinson, that outside people were taking a percentage { 

Mr Boyle. Yes ; it is our opinion that a syndicate or an outht was 
operatino- through Tam O'Shanter Country Club. This fellow Ryan 
is suijposed to be Vogel's fellow. That is why he couldn t bring m the 
books and records. He had to take a 6 months' sentence instead. He 
was there to protect the moneys that came in through the slot machines 
in the Tam O'Shanter Club. ^ ^-i n 

Mr Robinson. Have you ever found anything to support the allega- 
tion that an effort was being made to force the sale of that club to 

^^Mr^^BoYLE. No. I heard those stories. They started afterward. 

There were a lot of stories that started afterward, but that is not tTue. 
Mr. Robinson. Have you had any indication that machines have 

been run in from outside the State ? 

INIv. Boyle. No. j? , i m 

J^Ir. Robinson. Mr. Boyle, do you have any knowledge of the irans- 

Aiiipricnn CyO. . 
Mr. Boyle." You mean did I ever represent them ? Is that what 

you mean? 



158 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EoBiNsoN. Either represent them or 

Mr. RoYLE. Do you mean you want me to answer questions about 
vvliat I did in the private practice of law before I became State's attor- 
ney on December 6, 1948 ? 

Mr. Robinson. If you care to give any information. 

Mr. Boyle. Sure, I will tell you. I sent for those records today. 
From October 8, 1946, to June 9, 1947, 1 represented the Trans- Ameri- 
can Co. on civil matters only ; that is, corporation records in Delaware, 
corporation records that they had to make returns on in Sprino-field' 
111., and also the drawing of some contracts that they had. The only 
]-)erson I talked to as I recall it was a young fellow by the name of 
Burns. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that an Andrew Burns? 

Mr.^ Boyle. I think that is his name. I haven't cot my file. I 
haven't been able to get it. I went out of the law business a month 
before I took office. I have had no law practice of any kind since. 

The Chairman. When did you take office ? 

Mr. Boyle. December 6, 1948. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever at any time have the records of that 
company ? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; I never did. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know who had custody of the records ? 

Mr. Boyle. I imagine their auditor or their office. I never went to 
their office. The only time they ever wanted anything they came to 
my office. This fellow Burns would come to my office and bring papers 
over, the necessary papers to fill out. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any discussions with O'Hara ? 

Mr. Boyle. I talked to O'Hara ; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. The secretary of the company. 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know whether he still has the records or 
not? 

Mr. Boyle. I don't know anything about them. They went out of 
business and I never heard any more, never saw them since that day. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have anything to do with the dissolution 
of the company ? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not. I think I was through as their lawyer 
before that ever happened. 

The Chairman. Tell us anything about it. We are very, very much 
interested in that and anything that you can tell us about the company. 

Mr. Boyle. I will. First of all, there was a contract drawn which 
said if they did business with any person or persons or any corpora- 
tion that was illegal or broke the laws of any State, any county, or any 
citl, they would immediately cancel the contract. It is my under- 
standing of this company that they did business with certain publi- 
cations, who in turn sold to other persons, ostensibly bookmakers, but 
the company itself never sold to any bookmakers that I know of. I 
have sme records here, just a minute. 

Mr. Halley. Can we get to the nub of the matter ? 

Mr. Boyle. I can get the file and bring it in. I haven't much on it. 

Mr. Halley. Here is the thing 

Mr. Boyle. That is the only person or persons that I ever repre- 
sented in my life that had any connection with anything illegal or 
any connection with any of these so-called syndicates or persons. 



ORGANIZED CRIM& IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 159 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Boyle, in dealing with Burns, either Andrew or 
Pof Bnrns 

Mr. Boyle. I never met Pat Burns in my life. 

Mr. Halley. You never met Pat ? . , • t i 

Mr Boyle I met Andrew Burns, and he showed me his discharge 
from'the Marine Corps. He said, "They are saying a lot of things 
about me Here is my honorable discharge from the Marine Corps. 

Mr. Halley. You know, of course, the, shall we say rumor, about 
Trans-American. 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you learn anything in the course ot your repre- 
sentation which would help this committee 

Mr. Boyle. If I did, I would tell you. 

Mr. Halley. In separating the rumor from the truth, as to who 
actually owned Trans-American and what transpired behind the 



scenes 



Mr. Boyle. I M'ill bring in niA^ file. 

Mr. Halley, I didn't know who owned Trans-American, frankly. 
I only knew the names of the officers who were listed. 

Mi'. Halley. Did you have reason to believe, which a lawyer might 
well have and properly have, that there were other people m interest 
whose name were no divulged to you. 

Mr. Boyle. They never talked to me about it. I never talked to 
them. They never came to my office. 

Mr. Halley. Did Andrew Burns act like the fellow who owned 
the show 'I 

Mr. Boyle. Yes; he did. I will be very frank with you. He was 
aboveboard about it. He said he worked— I think he told me he 
worked for some other racing service. 

Mr. Halley. Continental, Ragen's crowd ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. He later went out in the business for himself and 
this was his business and he was handling it. I asked him about any 
hoodlums or any members of the syndicate involved, and he said there 
wasn't any. That is what he told me at that time and there was no 
reason why he should lie to me. 

Mr. Halley. Did you represent them at the time Ragen was killed? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you represent them after or before ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes; starting on October 8. I understand Ragen was 
killed in August of 1948. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't there considerable investigation by the police 
department of Trans-American growing out of the Ragen killing? 

Mr. Boyle. They never came to me about it. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see 

Mr. Boyle. I didn't represent them on any case in which the police 
were involved. I did not represent them in any courtroom proceeding 
of any kind. It was merely the making out of these various papers 
that were necessary, the same as I would with any other corporation. 
At that time I represented 175 corporations. 

Mr. Halley. What I have in mind, Mr. Boyle, is whether some- 
where some of the things that at that time might have seemed insignifi- 
cant to you, in the light of what you now know, might acquire signifi- 
cance and that you might by searching your memory think of some of 
these facts that would help this committee. 



160 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Boyle. I would be glad to. 

Mr. Hallky. Have you ever seen the statement Ragen made to the 
police department here about 2 weeks before he was murdered I 

Mr. Boyle. I have a statement found in the vault the othei- day. It 
is on my desk and I think that is the statement but I l)aven"t seen it. 
I haven't read it. I was not in the State attorney's office at that time. 
I was in the private practice of law. 

Mr. Halley. You see, in that statement Ragen told the police 
department he expected to be murdered as a result of transactions 
growing out of rivalry between Trans-American and Continental. In 
fact, his position was that an effort had been made to purchase Con- 
tinental from him, and that he was going to be killed because he 
resisted them. He named certain members of the Capone syndicate, 
I believe, the Fischettis, Accardo, and Guzik, as people who had 
approached him. 

Mr. Boyle. I never met those men. I never met Accardo, Guzik, 
or, who else, Fischetti. I never met them in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Of course this committee's problem is to ascertain 
whether or not those people were active behind the scenes in the 
Trans- American picture. 

Mr. Boyle. They never appeared in my office, never talked to me 
on the telephone. I never had anything to do with them. 

Mr. Halley. There is nothing you know that would help us in 
any way ? 

Mr. Boyle. Unless they were trying to conceal from me the fact 
that they were interested. I don't know why they would. 

Mr. Halley. It may be that you just wouldn't have represented 
them if they did. 

Mr. Boyle. I probably w^ould not. 

Mr. Halley. For instance, you didn't know the connection Trans- 
American with the murder investigation of Ragen, I presume? 

Mr. Boyle. I read it in the paper; yes. A man comes into my 
office to have me represent him on civil matters. I am in the private 
practice of law and I represented him for a period of about 9 
months. The total fees I received for representing them over that 
period of time w^as $2,500. In that year I have a record of what I 
made. I think I made about forty thousand-some-odd dollars in my 
law business. By the time I got through paying my tax on this I 
probably made about 5 or 6 hundred dollars. It was just another 
corporation so far as I was concerned. 

Mr. Robinson. What w'as the date ? 

Mr. Boyle. According to my records, which I sent for this noon — 
a couple of fellow^s asked me about it out there, and I said I would 
get my records — October 8, 1946. 

Mr. Robinson. Did that go back to 1945 ? 

Mr. Boyle. No, no. 1946. Someone else had represented them. 
I understand some big law firm in New York represented them in 
New York. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you help them incorporate ? 

Mr. Boyle. No; I did not. This was after they were incorporated. 

June 9, 1947, is the last time I ever saw any of these fellows or 
had anything to do with tliem. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have your file here ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161 

Mr. Boyle. No; I have not. My files are at my house and I will 
get my files for the committeee ; yes, sir. 

Mr. KoBiNSON. Yon never saw their records at all? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Robinson. You didn't know whether they kept any records? 

Mr. Boyle. I assumed that they did. I didn't see them. I never 
filed any income-tax returns for them or anything at all. I under- 
stood they had an auditor who did that. As a matter of fact, I never 
appeared in court for them. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know who their auditor was? 

Mr. Boyle. No; but my record might show it. I suppose he wrote 
letters giving me a breakdown for the filing of the papers in Delaware. 
It was a Delaware corporation. 

]\Ir. Robinson. That is right. 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. Every so often under those rules of the Delaware 
law you must file certain statements as to each corporation, and that 
was done. Also the secretary of state of Illinois insists that you file 
for a foreign corporation, which this was. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether :Mr. Bernstein represented 
them ? 

Mr. Boyle. Bernstein ? 

Mr. Robinson. In any capacity. 

Mr. Boyle. No; not at that time. If he did, he never told me 
about it. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall the name of Mr. Samelson? 

Mr. Boyle. No. But I will check and let you know. The name 
meant nothing to me if it wasn't in a letter. I didn't talk to any man 
by that name in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know where we could find Burns ? 

Mr. Boyle. No; I don't. I have never seen him since the last day 
I came down. I have never seen him since. I probably wouldn't even 
know him if I saw him. 

Mr. Halley. What sort of services did they need at that time? 

Mr. Boyle. Assistance in filing corporation papers, drawing of 
contracts. I will have to get the file. As I say, I had other business 
at that time. In fact, I had a pretty fair law practice, and probably 
should have stayed in it. So far as the committee is concerned, let me 
say that since I'have been State's attorney for the county I sold a six- 
fiat building that I had a half interest in, and I got $11,000 for it. 
There was no mortgage. In addition to that I had an interest in a 
subdivision that I acquired before I became State's attorney and I 
sold my interest in that, and after paying the loan to the bank I got 
about $8,000. That in addition to my salary has been spent, and, if 
the committee is interested, they can have any books or records I have. 
You can have my check book. You can have the key to my safety de- 
posit box and I will give you a note to go and look in it. That is the 
way I feel about this affair. I never took a nickel in my life. I want 
to "make this statement under oath. I have never taken a nickel in 
my life. I never allowed these fellows to contribute to my campaign. 
I didn't take any campaign contributions from any persons that I 
thought had any touch or any connection with any syndicate of any 
kind or any gamblers or any lawbreakers. Of course, at that^ time 
maybe it was because I was a five-to-one shot and they weren't too 
interested. The Friday before election a couple of those lawyers called 



162 ORGANIZED CRIMD I:N' INTERSTATE COMOVIERCE 

me up and ^Yanted to see me and I said ''No,'' I didn't wish to see them. 
That was Brodkin and Bieber, wlio represent these fellows. I said 
I wasn't interested and didn't want to see them, that I would rather 
be defeated than to have help from certain types of peo])le. I am just 
sayinir that because this thing- may be distorted. Frankly, it was 
just another law suit, another corporation. 

jNIr. Robinson. My. Boyle, this is a question I believe I asked the 
mayor. Do you think that a person can do a very proper and good 
investigatiA-e job so far as suppressing gambling who engages in 
gambling himself? 

Mr. BoYLE. How do you mean that ? If he goes to the track and 
makes a bet or if he bets on a handbook ? 

Mr. Robinson. Let's take either one. 

]Mr. BoTLE. Do you want my personal opinion? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Boyle. No ; he cannot. As State's attorney, I will not go to a 
race track and I will not make bets on a handbook, and I have never bet 
on a horse since I have been State's attorney. I will be very frank 
with you. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you think that anyone who is in investigative 
work, whether connected with the police department or with your 
office, could do a good job if he was engaging in gambling or wagering 
himself ? 

Mr. Boyle. You mean wagering on horses ? 

]Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Boyle. He would be suspect, yes, because frankly of these 76 
policemen that I have in my office, about 65 of them are young GI's 
who came out of the last war. Most of them have had training in the 
Army, and they are doing a pretty good job. If you don't think it is 
tough to cret out and get these slot machines without having these 
fellows ofler by means of bribes, believe me it is tough, because they 
know every time 3'OU take a slot machine it is going to cost them about 
$500 including the loss of the slot machines. I know I have honest 
men who go out on these jobs or I never would have gotten this many 
machines. I trust them and I know that they are honest and capable. 
These are policemen I am talking about. (Df course we have other 
investigators at work with them who go along with them. 

Mr. Robinson. Has this group of policemen who are assigned to 
your office been equally as energetic in suppressing the bookmaking 
establishments? 

Mr. Boyle. They have not been, no, because I didn't feel that that 
was my job. I moved over the line on the slot machines and have 
taken that upon myself. I write letters to the sheriff on handbooks. 
Wherever my fellows see a handbook operating, they make a report. 
I have men working in the county. They work every afternoon. No 
one knows who the}' are, but they send me written reports of hand- 
books operating. 1 have sent thousands of letters to the sheriff of 
Cock County telling him about these handbooks operating. I have 
sent letters to every chief of police. If they don't do anything about it 
and they are still running, we indict the chief of police. The sheriff 
at least sends the report back. 

Mr. Robinson. Is it your feeling that nothing has been done about 
it? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMEUCE 163 

Mr. Boyle. Insofar as the sheriff is concerned ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Boyle. I am afraid that is true. He has done some things; 
yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Is there any explanation in vour mind as to why he 
hasn't? 

Mr. Boyle. It could be only a suspicion and I don't want to give you 
that. 

The Chaieman. You mean, Mr. Boyle, that handbooks are operating 
out in the county promiscuously? 

Mr. Boyle. Xot any more. We put that Lumber Gardens out of 
business. Wherever we put pressure on. like in Cicero, they close 
down. They move around. If I start policing the county and start 
policing the city of Chicago, I wont be able to try the criminal cases 
that I have pending in the State's attorney's office, those that come in 
day after day. We have about 280 murder cases. I think we tried 
188 murder cases last year, and they are important cases to this com- 
munity. We have sex cases, we have vicious rape cases, burglaries, 
and robberies, and other types of cases. 

The Chairman. Mr. Boyle. I want to ask you just one or two ques- 
tions. There has been some talk in the paper about Mr. Gilbert. 
What is he? 

Mr. Boyle. Chief investigator of the State's attorney's office. 

The Chairman. Did you appoint him ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes ; I did. 

The Chairman. There has been some criticism of him having so 
much money or something. I have an open mind on the matter. I 
don't Imow about it one way or the other. 

Mr. Boyle. He appeared before the Chicago Crime Connnission 
and offered to bring in his income-tax returns for 10 years and show 
them where he got his money. He admits he has some money and says 
that he made it through some public service company of northern In- 
diana. I am not sure of all the facts connected with it. He is also 
a great friend of Dan Rice, the grain broker. He has made money 
with him. He used to live at the Blackstone Hotel. 

The Chairman. What is your opinion about Mr. Gilbert ? 

Mr. Boyle. I think he is one of the finest policemen I have ever 
known in my life. 

The Chairman. Do you have any reason to doubt his integrity or 
honesty ? 

Mr. Boyle. Not since I have been State's attorney. That is what 
3^ou want to know. 

The Chairman. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Boyle. I told him to go out and get these slot machines and he 
hasn't fumbled once. There haven't been any tip-offs, and that is im- 
portant on these gambling raids. 

The Chairman. You said you didn't have any question to doubt 
him since you had been State's attorney. 

Mr. Boyle. That is all I can go by. 

The Chairman. You had no contact with him prior to that? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes: I did as assistant State's attorney. I was there 
from 1033 to 1939 as assistant State's attorney for Cook County and 
I tried a lot of murder cases. He is a verv efficient man. 



164 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Did you have any reason to question him prior to 
tlie time you became State's attorney ? 

Mr. Boyle. No. First of all, let's understand each other. He is 
probably the most efficient police officer and one of the hardest- working 
police officers I have ever known. When he gets on a case he works 
day and night. He works on nearly every murder case we have in the 
office. He works all night and never stops. He is a terrific worker. 
He has cracked several cases for us which were supposed to be impos- 
sible in these country towns. In one case where two police officers were 
shot and one was killed, he went out ihere and took over and solved 
the case and a man was sentenced to death. 

The Chairman. I have seen it charged — I don't know whether in 
the paper or in one of these articles that have been written — that since 
Mr. Gilbert has been in there, there had been no charge made against 
any of these racketeers like the Fischettis and what not ; that none of 
them had been brought in. 

Mr. Boyle. Not by our office. 

The Chairman. I mean is there any explanation ? 

Mr. Boyle. I assume the police department of Chicago would make 
an arrest first of all. 

The Chairman. You mean you don't operate in the city at all ? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; I do not because I have confidence in the mayor of 
Chicago. I have confidence in somebody along the line. 

The Chairman. I just wanted to see the jurisdiction. Your people 
police all these towns and suburbs out in the county outside the city. 

Mr. Boyle. We do police them. 

The Chairman. It would be your opinion, then, that it would be just 
because they weren't operating in the county outside the city if none 
of them had been arrested. 

Mr. Boyle. That is right. They haven't committed any crimes that 
have come to our knowledge. If they had, of course, we would arrest 
them and have writs sworn out and have them released afterward. 

The Chairman. Mr, Boyle, how much does your position pay you ? 

Mr. Boyle. $15,000 a year. 

The Chairman. You are elected for how long a term ? 

Mr. Boyle. Four years. One thousand two hundred dollars of that 
is paid by the State of Illinois. Every State's attorney in Illinois gets 
$1,200 from the State. 

The Chairman. That is a 4-year term. 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. Then I get $13,800 a year from the county of 
Cook. Of course, they take deductions before they give me my check. 

The Chair^ian. When you ran, did you run with the blessing of the 
organization here or did you buck them ? 

Mr. Boyle. No, I ran with their blessing for the first time in my 
life. 

The Chairman. We were talking some time back that you had run 
two or three times, something once before. What was that? 

Mr. Boyle. Well, that goes away back. In 1028 I ran for State 
representative as an indejiendent and I was defeated. In 1939 I ran for 
alderman of the sixteenth w^ard in Chicago against the organization. 
The regular organization man was ward committeeman and Demo- 
cratic alderman, had been there for 21 years, and I defeated him. In 
1940 I ran against him for committeeman and I was defeated by about 
600 votes out of 26,000. In 1942 I handled Paul Douglas' campaign 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COiVIMEECE 165 

as an independent candidate for the United States Senate. I was still 
in the city council at that time. After 1U43 1 dropped completely out 
of politics and went into the practice of the law and stayed there until 
out of a clear sky they asked me to run for State's attorney ot Cook 
County. I say I was surprised and that is the truth. 

The Chaikmax. In the private practice were you with a firm? 

Mr. BoTLE. No, I was by myself. I had other lawyers working for 
me. I had a list of my earnings here for those years. I ran over $40,000 
each year prior to mV taking^the othce of State's attorney. 

The CiiAraMAN. During tliose last few days in your race for State's 
attorney there were some people who called you representing these 
gang elements ^ 

Mr. Boyle. I assume they represented them because they do repre- 
sent them in court and have for many years. 

The Chau^man. They called you on the telephone ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes, and wanted to come over to see me and I said I didn't 
want to see them. 

The Chairman. Did you know what they wanted to see you about ^ 

]\lr. Boyle. They wanted to make a donation to my campaign. I 
said "No," I wasn't interested. 

The Chairman. Did you state their names? 

Mr. Boyle. Lawyers by the name of Brodkin & Bieber. 

The Chairman. "Who did they represent? 

Mr. Boyle. They represented for sometime the so-called syndicate 
fellows in the courts and gambling cases. 

The Chairman. You mean Capone and (luzik and Fischettis and 
that outfit ? 

Mr. Boyle. That is right. 

The Chairman. I know we all get a lot of anonymous letters. I got 
one here and I don't know what to do with it. I thought I would read 
it for the record and turn it over to you or somebody if it would be of 
any help to you. I think it came in this envelope, October 2, which is 
here. 

Jack (Jake) Guzik and Charles Fischetti ordered Lt. Bill Drury killed. Giizik 
sent word to his North Side triggermen Dominic Nnccio and two other Dominies 
(called the three Doms) and Nuccio supplied three shotguns and .45 caliber pistol 
for job. After killing, killers returned to Nuccio's saloon and hid guns. Every- 
one knows the Doms' last names. Now go and get them lined up for electric 
chair. They have good, crooked lawyers known as BB boys. 

That has been handled around here. .1 don't know whether there 
are any fingerprints on it or not. 

I wanted to ask you about the Drury murders. I don't suppose 
there is anything we can do, but if you have any suggestions about 
anything that we can do to help we would be very glad to have it. 

Mr. Boyle. We have been working on the thing, as you probably 
know. I talked to Ricca, Campagna, and Gioe and we did get some 
answers from them because they had to answer us. Of course, they 
have airtight alibis for the night of the killing. 

Mr. Kerxer. I think the committee should probably know that I 
wrote a letter to Mr. Boyle 

Mr. BoYLE. Yes. 

Mr. Kerner. Informing him if he did find anything in the nature 
of a Federal violation in either of these two killings, if he would in- 
form our office we would try to get the officers of the Federal Govern- 



166 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IX IX^TERSTATE COMIIVEERCE 

ment in the matter to assist in findincr tlie killers. That was with the 
wish of the Attorney General of the United States. 

The Chairman. I might say that I called and then sent a telegram 
and a letter to the Attorney General also. I got a letter back from 
Howard McGrath that if we found any connection at all, they would 
be glad to have our report and would take the matter up for appropri- 
ate action. fLL 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Boyle, did you take a statement from an accoimt- 
ant named Brantman ? 
Mr. Boyle. I did. 

Mr. Halley. Did that relate to a certain alleged activity of an 
attorney representing Drury^ 

Mr. Boyle. That is right. Do you want me to tell you about it? 

Mr. Halley. What was his name first. 

Mr. Boyle. His name was Louis Kutner. 

Mr Halley. Will you tell the committee about the statement you 
took from Brantman? 

Mr. BoYM. Do you want to tell me fii-st of all that I got some in- 
formation that Kutner knew something about Drury's case« He 
was Drury's and Connelly's lawyer. So I called him up and told 
him I wanted to talk to him. I said I want to talk to you. He came 
out to my office and told me a story that he represented a fellow by the 
naine of Russell and that Russell later denied that he represented him. 
So 1 asked him if Mr. Drui-y was working with him on the Russell 
matter and he said no, he was not. He told about having contacted 
Mr. Halley and he was supposed to surrender to Mr. Halley and he 
got a subpena from you. I asked him how he came to represent Rus- 
sell, and it was rather a vague story. He finally gave me the name of 
Brantman, an auditor. I got hold of Brantman and had him come 
out to my office and I took a statement from Brantman. Brantman's 
story was that he represented Russell as an accountant. He also rep- 
resented Ralph Capone. The other day I asked Ricca and Campagna 
it they knew him, and Campagna said he did some work for him and 
also did some work for Gioe. I asked Gioe., and he admitted some 
years ago he did some income-tax work for him. Brantman said that 
Kutner called him and told him he could lielp his client, Russell 

Mr. Halley. Would you give the full details ? 
. ^'^y- ^OYLE- Then Brantman said he would like to meet with Kutner 
in his office and would bring Russell with him. So Russell went over 
there and met with Kutner and Brantman. I asked Brantman what 
the conversation was about and he said Kutner told him he could help 
him that innocuous questions would be asked and he would be let go 

Mr. Halley. Where did this conversation occur « 
^.^nnf??^^'"' P' ^'^J^^^:'^ 0^^^- Brantman said Kutner wanted a 
Sn Ann "^ addition to that he wanted between $25,000 and 

<pO0,00U. 

When Kutner did come to my office he wanted police protection He 
said he wanted police protection. We have six of our policemen, who 
could be doing other work, guarding him. 

Mr. Halley Did Brantman tell you any more about Kutner's 
relations with Russell ? 
^^^^•.^OYLE. He said that Kutner— do you want me to tell you all 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 167 

Mr. Halley. Absolutely. I xN-oiild like to have a copy of the state- 
Mr. Boyle. I will give you a copy of both statements.^ He said that 
Kiitner presumably was talking on the phone to the Senator m tlie 
office putting on an act for Mr. Russell, that he would surrender Mr. 
Russell and he wanted a subpena and the subpena would be sent to 
the office ; that later on Russell refused to accept the subpena and said 
he didn't want Kutner to represent him any longer, and about a month 
later Brantman got a call from Russell and he said to Brantman, 
"What is the idea of bringing me to Kutner \ He is heating me up 
with the committee and all over the country and I never did any harai 
to him. I never even hired him. He is not my lawyer and why is he 
te]ling these stories about me, trying to put me in jail ?" 

Brantman said at that time he was a little tough about it, that Rus- 
sell was very put out about Kutner's activity against Russell, whom he 
no longer represented. 

That is the substance of the statement. 

]\Ir. Halley. When the Drury killing came along, Kutner seemed to 
feel that he also was in jeopardy. , 

Mr. BoYLE. Yes. He has six policemen assigiied to him from my 
office now, on three shifts. He was very excited and he talked to some 
+"riend of his and they said, "You had better be careful." He talks at 
length, quite a gabby fellow. He goes into flights of fancy about how 

wonderful he is. ■ i ■ • i i i x 

Mr. Halley. Did he have any information about any individual tliat 
Drury might have been ready to give evidence about or to bring in to 
testify % 

Mr. Boyle. No. 

Mr. Halley. Any new name in the picture ? 

Mr. Boyle. No. If he did, I will get the statement and give you the 
statement. It is a complete question and answer statement of both of 
them. It should help you. . . n ^, • 

Mr. Halley. Where does the Drury investigation stand at this 

time? „ , . , , 

Mr Boyle. Lt. Andrew Aiken, the chief of detectives, has been 
working on it day and night, I know that. He has fifty-some police- 
men assigned to the Drury killing. Our office has been working on it. 
I have men assigned to the Drury case. There is an investigator out 
here now down in Indiana about some fellow who was shot clown there, 
a former inmate of Michigan State Penitentiary, who was a former 
cellmate of Yaros or Petry when originally arrested. He went down 
there to get some bullets and ballistics going back to the old Ragen case. 
They think maybe some connection there is possible. I don t know 
what Mr. Drury had been doing lately, except that Kutner did tell 
me he had o-iven a lot of information down in Florida. I took a state- 
ment from'^Connelly also. Connelly told me that Drury m Florida 
would point out these hoodlums, these known gangsters, who woulcl 
come down to Florida and was working with a man on the Miami 
News, is it ? 

The Chairman. A boy named Petit. 

Mr. Boyle. Petit, that is right. He gave Petit a lot of information 
about these fellows. He would go into night clubs and restaurants 
and look around and find certain fellows and give that information to 
Petit Connelly seemed to think that that might have had something 



168 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

to do with his killing. He mentioned some people in St. Paul. The 
name was Terhune. I wnll give you that statement also. He also 
mentioned a group in St. Louis called the Rocky Gang, some name 
like that, and he gave me their names. He mentioned a group in 
Cleveland. He gave me three names in Cleveland of fellows that 
Drury had been exposing to this new^spaper. He said he also worked 
with this fellow Velie on Collier's magazine. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever confront Kutner with Brantman's 
charges? 

Mr. BoYi.E. No ; I never had an opportunity, but I will. 

Mr. Halley. Would it interfere with your investigation if he were 
confronted with those charges here? 

Mr. Boyle. No; not a bit. I think he should be confronted here. 
I will liave those over today if you want them, those statements. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. Boyle. Anything else? 

The Chairman. I was just going to say in connection with this we 
appreciate your telegram. We sent you a telegram, and I told Mr. 
Robinson to write in more detail. The only thing we had on Drury 
was that he had written us about employment, which had not worked 
out. We had some exchange of letters. 

Mr. Boyle. Most of this information that Bill Drury had, unless 
it Avas something developed lately, liad been printed. This fellow 
Connelly told me he worked with Leyton Mortimer and he was going 
to work with him on a new book about Florida, something along those 
lines. 

The Chairman. As you found out, he furnished a good deal of in- 
formation to the Cox Newspapers, and this chap F'etit — I don't know 
whether Mr. Drury knew of it or not, but I assume he did — passed on to 
us a memorandum that Di-ury had furnished to him. From time to 
time a chap, Lowery, in Washington, would pass on to me informa- 
tion, something that had come from Drury, about things in Florida 
and otherwise. That is the whole connection with him. 

Mr. Halley. As you know, about two or two and a half weeks before 
the murder, Kutner wrote a letter to the committee, addressed I be- 
lieve to me, saying that he wanted to bring Drury and Connelly l)efore • 
the committee to testify, that they were his clients and he wanted to 
produce them. 

]\Ir. Boyle. He told me the reason he wanted a subpena was to pro- 
tect Drury, not Connelly. He wanted a subpena to protect Drury 
and he wanted a subpena for himself. Then they would be under 
the protection of this committee. That is wdiat he told me. , 

Mr. Halley. I thought you had the full facts, but for your infor- 
mation these are the facts as I understand them, and George Robinson 
may have certain additional information. Kutner wrote such a let- 
ter, but not asking for a subpena, simply saying, as I recall the letter, 
that 

The Chairman. Do we have the letter? 

Mr. Robinson. I don't recall the letter. 

Mr. Halley. The letter may be in Washington. 

The Chairman. Let us get a copy of it and give it to Mr. Boyle. 

Mr. Halley. Kutner will have it, offering to ]n'oduce two people to 
testify. The letter was not acknowledged in writing for reasons con- 
nected with the fact that certain intimations of the Brantman matter 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 169 

had come to my attention, but when I visited Chicago I asked Mr. Rob- 
inson to get ill touch with Kutner. Kutner had been telephoning all 
day to reach me in Chicago. I did not speak to him but asked ^Nlr. Rob- 
inson on my departure to call Kutner. Mr. Robinson was in the 
process of getting in touch with ]SIr. Kutner when the murder oc- 
curred. Whether there is any connection between the desire of Kutner 
to bring Drury and Connelly in as witnesses and the murder, I have 
no way of knowing. 

The" Chairman. I thought you called. 

IVIr. Halley. George will bring it up to date now\ 

Mr. Robinson. I did call Kutner, the sole purpose being to tell 
him that you had been unable to call him and that I would like to 
talk to Drury. I told him that I would call Drury since I had 
Drury 's numlWr. and arrange for some time to interview him. 

jNIr. B0YT.E. You told me that. 

Mr. Robinson. I called Drury's house. I didn't reach him but 
reached his wife. He was to call back at 7 : 30. I think I passed on 
that information to you. Kutner called me back later at night, and 
that is the first time I heard about his asking for protection. 

Mr. Halley. He hadn't asked for a subpena. He simply said he 
wanted to arrange to bring them in to give their testimony to the 
committee. 

The Chairman. Did he ask you for a subpena for protection ? 

I^Ir. Robinson. Xot until after the Drury killing. 

The Chairman. He wanted one himself. 

Mr. Robinson. He was talking mostly about Connelly. I didn't 
get the indication that he wanted one for himself, although he was 
a little concerned. 

The Chairman. Yes; he did want one for himself. This happened 
the following day. It adds to the mystery and what not. Lester 
Velie called me from New York rather frantically saying that he had 
been in touch with Kutner. and Kutner was in a terrible shape, locked 
in his office and afraid to get out. 

Mr. Boyle. I had to send a policeman down to take him out. 

The Chairman. He asked if there was anything I can do. I said, 
"I don't know a thing in the world I can do." He said, "I think he 
was trying to help you fellows and you ought to do something to help 

So Lester gave his telephone number, and said, "If you get a Federal 
subpena served on him to appear before your committee, at least that 
might scare somebody olf, that the Federal Government would have 
iunsdiction. Would you call him up?" n n 

I thought just to get what information he might have 1 would call 
him up. ^So I called him on the telephone and he said he was scared 
to death. He had been in his office and afraid to get out. 

I said, "Well, I have a subpena written out right here, and I will 
read it to you." . 

He said, "Don't read it to me. I will accept it quick. 

Mr. Boyle. I don't know whether he was frightened or was a 

publicitv seeker. . ., i •. n ^ 

The Chairman. I said, "I must read it to you, so 1 read it all to 
him and made a notation on the back, "Served by having read it. 
Meantime somebody had been in touch with you, George, to go over 

68958— 51— pt. 5 12 



170 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

and actually serve one on him, which I think was done. I asked him 
as of that time what he could tell me about the matter and he couldn't 
tell me anythino- on the telephone. I asked him to tell Mr. Kobinson 
or you anythintj- he had to tell so we could help get the matter solved. 

Air. Boyle. May I say something off the record. 

The Chairman. Off the record. 

(Off the record.) 

Mr. White. I have one technical question, Mr. Boyle. I am told 
that Drury was shot not only with a shotgun, but four .45 slugs pierced 
his head in a row right across through his forehead; is that correct? 

Mr. Boyle. That is not my understanding. He was shot witli a 
shotgun, one .4.5 slug was in the ceiling of the garage, and the other 
.45 slug went through the hood of the car. They cut that out and got 
the smashed bullet. The things that actually killed him were these 
three shotgun blasts, four blasts, right across the windshield. 

Mr. White. You mean buckshot pellets that pierced the windshield 
or four separate blasts ? 

Mr. Boyle. Four separate blasts that made holes about this big 
around, about an inch in diameter, right in a line, the four of them 
right through a windshield one after the other. You know these leaden 
pellets you have in the shotgun. The shotgun is what killed him, and 
not the .45, as I understand it. 

Mr. White. I may be incorrectly informed, but I suggest in case 
this other story is correct that there were four .45 slugs in his forehead, 
in a direct line and closely spaced, it would seem improbable that those 
could have been made by someone firing an automatic pistol, but more 
likely they would be made by someone firing a machine gun, which of 
course first is the same as a .45 pistol. If it had been a machine gun 
it w^ould be a very material point. The Federal Government would 
have some jurisdiction because it would be assumed that the machine 
gun was not a licensed one, and, secondly, it would show a greater 
gang influence than perhaps a pistol would. People who carry ma- 
chine guns are more closely connected with organized crime than 
people who carry .45's. 

Mr. BoYi.E. Shotguns can be a pretty good weapon too. 

]Mr. White. Yes. I understand two weapons were used, in any case. 

Mr. Boyle. The theory of the police, of Andy Aiken, from talking 
to him, is that the shots from the .45's were used to keep him in the 
car, in other words, to drive him in his corner where the fellow had 
the shotgun. That is their theory. 

Mr. White. I suggest if there were four .45 holes, it would merit 
inquiry as to whether it was a machine gun or an automatic. If it was 
a machine gun I think it would be worth inquiring into. 

Mr. Boyle. The slugs could have been from a machine gun. They 
were. 45 slugs. 

Mr. White. No one saw the gun, of course. Since both guns used 
the same cartridge 

Mr. Boyle. Frankly I thought I got a break. A fellow called the 
Tribune and said he wanted to talk to me about the killing, the vice 
president of an insurance company. He was walking about a block 
from the scene of the killing, and he heard the five explosions and 
about 5 minutes to 7 a man got in a car at the curb and drove off north 
on Lincoln Avenue, which is about a block away, and as he did a street- 
car hit him and his car caught on the front step of the streetcar. The 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IMTERSTATE COMMERCE 171 

thing that attracted this man's attention was that he tried to get away 
by swinging the wheel and gunning the car and finally he broke the 
step of the streetcar off and got away. The streetcar got the license 
number and it developed he had been in a tavern at that point drinking 
all afternoon and didn't even remember the accident. We thought 
we had a red-hot lead and worked a couple of days on that. Of course 
you run into a blind alley in all cases of tliis type, but we thought we 
had something. 

The Chair:man. Do you think the possibility of his appearance 
before our committee or that he was going to talk before our committee 
is any clue or is that just 1 of 15 or 20 ? 

Mr. Boyle. That is one of many. The question is : Did he know 
anything other than that which has been printed in the newspapers ? 

The Chairman. Of course in' that connection they might have at- 
tached a little more significance to his coming before a committee and 
just telling the Herald American or the Cox newspapers or Lester 
Velie or Lee Mortimer about something. 

Mr. Boyle. That is true. Of course these names that Connelly 
gave me are names that he had dug up, having records in connection 
with these outfits. These men that Drury exposed in Cleveland, in 
St. Paul, in St. Louis, and spots like that, so-called respectable citizens 
up to that time, may have had something to do with it. That is a 
theory, of course. 

Mr. White. Does Connelly feel that this association with Drury in 
any manner now puts him in a precarious position ? 

Mr. Boyle. He has a police card. He hold me he didn't care wheth- 
er he had it or not. They told me he sat in a tavern waiting for the 
police car to come over and pick him up. Connelly said he didn't 
know what Drury was doing in Florida except what Drury told him. 
He didn't know anything about these other places except what Drury 
told him. I don't know whether Connelly is telling the truth or not. 
He said he didn't see Drury the afternoon of the killing. He talked 
to him that night, and it developed he was in Kutner's office with him 
that afternoon. 

The Chairman. We are going to have Mr. Connelly up here. Are 
there any particular questions that you would like to have us ask him, 
or any other witness ? 

Mr. Boyle. You might fiiid out what Mr. Connelly has been doing 
for the last several months. I suppose you have read in the papers that 
his income is $94 a month, a police pension. The day of the killing 
he bought a new Oldsmobile car. He is paying $100 a month on the 
car. His rent is $40 a month. He has to live, as well. When you ask 
him, or try to pin him down as to where he is going to get the money 
for all these things, he says, "Oh, well, I expect to get a job." 

Mr. Halley. Drury was in about the same shape, wasn't he? 

Mr. Boyle. At least Drury had some money in his box. He had 
$G00 in his pocket, and $1,000 in a box, and he had some stocks and 
some bonds. 

Mr. Halley. Is there any truth to the story that a man walked 
into the Cadillac Co. with him, and Drury turned in his old car and 
the man paid $2,000 in cash for a new one for him ? 

Mr. Boyle. That statement was supposed to have been obtained by 
a Daily Xews reporter. They tell me at the Daily News that they 
are willino^ to make an affidavit that he told him that, but now he has 



172 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN mfTERSTATE COMMERCE 

cliiin<>:ed liis story and it isn't true, that the fellow didn't come up 
with $2,000. Of course, I asked him where he got his 1950 Cadillac, 
and he said "Denemark."" This fellow Gioe bought his at Denemark's. 
Cani})iigna for the first time in his life bought one at Joe Bergl's in- 
stead of Denemark's, but he always did business with Denenuirk be- 
fore, I don't know wliat significance that has in the case, but these 
fellows evidently did business with Denemark when they purchased 
their cars. 

The Chairm x. Mr. Boyle, have any political elforts been atteaupted 
to be used on you in connection with the prosecution or nonprosecu- 
tion of any cases ^ 

Mr. Boyle. Never, believe me, never. It wouldn't make any diifer- 
ence if they tried, but no one ever has tried. 

The Chairman. That goes for the force that is working under you, 
so far as you know '. 

Mr. BoVle. Oh, yes. If I tell them to do something, I expect it to 
be done. So far, those orders have been carried out. 

The Chairman. Anything else, gentlemen '. 

Mr. Robinson. I have about four questions I would like to ask. 

How long has Mr. Gilbert been investigator for the State's attor- 
ney's office ? 

Mr. Boyle. Eighteen years. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know what he did ]3rior to that time? 

Mr. Boyle. He was captain of police, supervising captain of police. 
At that time they had districts where tliey had supervising captains. 
They would have probably 10 police captains under them, a sort of 
deputy commissioner. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know wliat he did prior to his position with 
the police force? 

Mr. Boyle. No, except what I have i-ead in the newspapers. He 
worked for some union as a business agent, or something. That is( 
what I heard. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know anything about where he got his 
money 'l 

Mr. Boyle. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether or not he engages in any 
gambling activities personally? 

Mr. Boyle. No; I do not, except perhaps betting on elections. 

Mr. Robinson. That is all. 

Mr. Boyle. Do you mean does he bet the horses ? Is that what you 
mean ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Boyle. I never knew of him to bet the horses. He never told me 
that, and I don't know of anybody who ever said so. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of any testimony or allegation that 
a Tubb was getting about $2,000 a month from racketeers? 

Mr. Boyle. That was in the Tribune. 

Mr. Halley. Was that supposed to be Tubby Joseph ? 

Mr. Boyle. I asked him about that, and he denies that that ever 
was him, that he ever got any money. He has been called Tubby. 

Mr. Halley. Did he say he was going to sue the Tribune for libel, 
or anything like that? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; he did not. We don't have many libel suits in Chi- 
cago. 



ORGANIZED CRIM& IN INfTERSTATE COMMERCE 173 

The Chairman. You have complete freedom of the press? 

Mr. Boyi.E. Complete freedom of the press, believe me. 

(Discussionoff the record.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Boyle, we appreciate very much your coming. 

Mr. Boyle. I would like to put this in the record ; and, if you have 
anv objections, sav so, and I won't do it. I would like to put in mv 
earnings as a lawyer prior to becoming State's attorney of Cook 

County, if you don't mind. ^.^ ^. , 

1943, fees amounted to $40,629.01. 1944, $42,946.32. 1945, $44,- 

981.19. 1946, $34,776.16. 

]SIr. Halley. Is that gross fees ? 

Mr. Boyle. Those are gross fees. 

The Chairman. About how much did your expenses run i 

Mr. Boyle. I don"t know. I suppose I cleared about $20,000 or 
$25,000. ^ ^ ^ 

The Chairman. How old are you, Mr. Boyle i 

Mr. Boyle. I am 48. ^ r^ ^ -, i ^ o 

The Chairman. You are a Northwestern Law School graduate i 
Mr. Boyle. No. De Paul University. 
In 1947, $40,232.71; and in 1948, the least year, for 11 months, 

$44,041.45. ' , . n .• .1 ^ 

The Chairman. I will tell you, that brings up the question that a 
lot of people ask me, not bragging. I made a little more practicing 
law back in the thirties than I make now in the Senate. They ask 
me why I <Tave up law practice to get into politics. I am always hard 
pressed ior an answer. So, might I ask you, what did you quit all this 

°Mr Boyle. First of all, it is the ego of the man, perhaps. Perhaps, 
another thing, I probably hoped to be State's attorney of Cook County 
someday, but never thought that I ever would be. So, I am trying 
to do a o-ood job, and I think we owe something to the community m 
which we live', and we owe something to the people with whom we live. 
Sure, you make a sacrifice when you take public office. Perhaps we 
like tlie things that go with the office, recognition m the community 
and all that sort of thing. 

The Chairman. The nice part, the grandchildren have something 

to talk about. , o , -i 

Mr. Boyle. The grandchildren will talk about you, Senator, and 

be very proud of you. 

The' only reason I put this in was to show you that any moneys 1 
received from the Trans-American outfit were very nominal, because 
after I paid my taxes I had nothing left, frankly. That is the only 
company that 1 have ever represented in my life, or any persons, that 
ever had any tinge of any kind, believe me. , • . .i 

The Chairman. Did they have another lawyer working lor them at 
that time ? 

Mr. Boyle. Not that I know. -pi 

The Chairman. Somebody on taxes, or something ot that sort i 

:Mr. Boyle. They may have. I didn't know anything about it. 

The Chairman. * Did you get up their tax returns ? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not. 

The Chairman. Do you know who did that ? 

Mr. Boyle. No. 



174 ORGANIZED CRIMEi EST ITS'iTE ESTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. You just handled their corporate papers, and what 
not? 

Mr. Boyle. That is ri^ht; that is all it was, frankly, and contracts. 

Mr. Halley. In writing: up these contracts, did you ever deal with 
anybody on the other side, the people that they were contracting 
with ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes ; several times they would come in and sign a con- 
tract, persons who would have some publishing company. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat -sort of people were they ? 

Mr. Boyle. Pretty high-class-looking people. 

Mr. Halley. Do you remember any of the names, or would your 
records show you who they were ? 

Mr. Boyle. I think so. Somebody from Kentucky and somebody 
from some other places. This outfit folded up. 

Mr. Halley. The basic problem is to find out who is behind it. 
Everybody, I might say, including your police commissioner, seems 
to feel that there was somebody behind that Trans- American. 

Mr. Boyle. They never let me know about it, if there was. 

Mr. Halley. And, when you go to investigate it, you hit a blank. 

The Chairman. Mr. Boyle, it would be very useful, if you find the 
file tomorrow, if sometime you could drop by and let Mr. Halley or 
Mr. Robinson go over it with you. 

Mr. BoYLE. I would be glad to cooperate. 

The Chairman. We appreciate very much your appearance, and 
we will be in touch with jou from time to time. Any suggestions 
that come to you that may be helpful to us. we would appreciate your 
passing on to us. I wish that you would do this, Mr. Boyle. After 
thinking it over, give us any recommendations for Federal legislation 
that might be effective without infringing on the rights of the State 
and the local community, that might be helpful in the problem of law 
enforcement. Do you think of some now ? 

Mr. Boyle. As I understand now, the wire service is perfectly legiti- 
mate and legal. 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. Boyle. It was in 1946 and 1947. It was legitimate at that 
time. I think if you pass a law preventing the passage of slot 
machines across State lines it will be a tremendous thing for the local 
law-enforcing officials. 

The Chairman. It would not help you here in Illinois ? 

Mr. Boyle. I think it would. 

The Chairman. You think it would ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes ; I do. 

The Chairman. I thought they were all made here. 

Mr. Boyle. A lot of them are made here; most of them are made 
here. 

(Brief recess.) 

TESTIMONY OF ELMER MICHAEL WALSH, SHEEIFF, 
COOK COUNTY, ILL. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, we are sorry to have detained you so long. 

Sheriff Walsh. That is all right. 

The Chairman. Have a seat, sir. 

Mr. Halley, will you ask the sheriff any questions you have ? 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 175 

Mr. Halley. Will you state your jurisdiction? 

Sheriff Wai.sh. :My jurisdiction is Cook County. The sheriff here 
is still the highest law-enforcement officer in the count:y. However, 
the sheriff does not exercise jurisdiction in the municipalities, par- 
ticularly in Chicago. Cook County has some 91 incorporated towns. 
There are about a total of 850 police in these incorporated towns, in 
aggregate number. So the sheriff confines himself, so far as police 
work is concerned, to the unincorporated areas in Cook County. There 
are about 450 miles of unincorporated area in Cook County. 

Mr. Halley. How many men do you have on your force, and how 
are they distributed? 

Sheriff Walsh. One hundred twenty-nine. 

Mr. Halley. How do you use them ? 

Sheriff Walsh*. Those men are divided into three districts : In the 
north end of the county, we have a station in Homewood; in the mid- 
dle of the county, Bedford Park ; and in the south end of the county 
is Homewood, district No. 3. 

Mr. Halley. How many are available for civil work and how many 
for criminal work? 

Sheriff Walsh. I have 772 employees in my office. Only about one- 
sixth of the budget is provided for highway police. All the other 
men are used for process servers, civil and criminal, all the bailiffs 
in the courtrooms, civil courts and criminal courts. The sheriff is the 
warden of the county jail. There are 13:2 men over there. I am also 
the custodian of the County Building in Chicago, and also the Crimi- 
nal Court Building on the West Side; and as custodian, I have a 
large number of employees to do the window washing, floor mop- 
ping, elevator operators, and all the work of keeping up those build- 
ings. However, I have only 129 men in police work, and that is all 
the budget provides for. 

Mr. Halley. How much road do they have to patrol ? 

Sheriff Walsh. There is about 450 square miles of unincorporated 
territory in Cook County. In the last 10 years, I think I told you 
when you were in my office, the population in Chicago has gone out to 
live in rural areas, so much so that 60 percent, in the last 10 years, 
of the population in the country towns has come into the country 
towns away from Chicago. In other words, Chicago has increased 
only 7 percent in population in 10 years, and in the rural areas it has 
increased 40 percent in 10 years. 

Mr. Halley. Do you use any of your staff for crnnmal nivestiga- 

tion? . . TXT 1 

Sheriff Walsh. Very little, because of my appropriation. AVe have 
no investigators in the sheriff's office at all. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say, as a practical matter, then, within the 
municipalities, the municipal' officers take care of it, and outside of 
at least the city of Chicago you have left investigative work to the 
State's attorney's office ? . ^ ■, ,. xi 

Sheriff Walsh. To the State's attorney s office and, of course, the 
various towns and cities in Cook County that have their own police 

forces. 

Mr. Halley. You make no effort to do investigative work? 

Sheriff Walsh. No; except that we help where we can and assist 
these other chiefs of police in these towns where we can and when 
we can. 



176 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Ml'. Haixey. You have mentioned that under the hiw the sheriff is 
really the hio-hest law-enforcement officer in the county. 

Sheriff Walsh. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. Has any step been taken or any recommendation 
been made by you to cure what one might say is the state to which 
the office lias come, with your force so taken up with civil duties, 
process serving, and things like that ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes ; there Jias. Each year before the budget is 
passed upon, I have requested an addition 100 ]wlice officers which 
I can put on investigative work and hel]) the general police work. 
I have been turned down every year that I have gone in. 

Mr. Halley. Under the budget, are you compelled to use your 600 
men for civil work and process serving? Are you unable to take men 
off that job and use them for police work? 

Sheriff AValsii. I could take them off that work, but that load is 
so heavy, because every lawsuit that is filed in Cook County has to 
come through my office for service. We have to serve all those civil 
courts. The lawsuits are piling up here and getting larger in volume 
every year. 

Mr.' Halley. For instance, when you have an important event like 
the murder of Drury, an obvious gangster murder, would it be possible 
for your office to take part in the investigation, since under the law 
you are the highest law-enforcement officer? 

Sheriff Walsh. We could. We don't have enough men to assign 
to that work because, first of all, we feel that the Chicago police have 
greater facilities than we have, and we never come into Chicago 
unless they ask us to, and they have never asked us. So, we confine 
ourselves to the county, the rural districts. 

Mr. Halley. In the country, you do not do investigative work ; is 
that correct? 

Sheriff Walsh. Only when it pertains to something which w^e find 
ourselves in an unincorporated territory. 

Mr. Halley. Have you been, for instance, picking up slot machines? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes. Since I have been sheriff, we have seized, 
confiscated, and destroyed approximately, at this date, about 1,450 
slot machines. 

Mr. Halley. As of what date is that, Sheriff? 

Sheriff Walsh. I w-as installed as sheriff in December 1946, and my 
term expires in about 2 months, December 1. I think my term 
expires about 2 months from now\ 

Mr. Halley. Have those seizures resulted in prosecution? 

Sheriff Walsh. Those seizures have resulted in prosecutions. _0n 
probably 95 percent of them we got convictions, and the machines 
wei-e destroyed. 

Mr. Halley. They are prosecuted by the State's attorney's office? 

Sheriff Walsh. By the State's attorney. 

Mr. Halley. Have you been active in any other ty])e of gambling 
investigation, bookmaking, and so on, gambling houses? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes. We have raided approximately 725 books 
since I have been sheriff, in pretty nearly 4 years, now. 

Mr. Halley. Do you find, after you raid them, you are able to get 
convictions ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes, we are able to get convictions on books, but 
unfortunately, like the slot-machine convictions, all they get is a $100 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 177 

fine, and they just s[)iing up again. The books are the same way. 
We are unable to get any results to have them prosecuted under the 
repeater section of the statute. It is very difficult to find the same 
person with the same book the second time, and the State's attorney 
has trouble in prosecution and getting convictions. 

Mr. Halley. You get cooperation from him, however, in attempting 
to do so ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes, we get cooperation from the State's attorney, 
especially since State's Attorney Boyle got about 75 police from the 
Chicago Police Department which he is now using in the county to 
assist in gambling raids. 

Mr. Halley. Is there still a serious gambling problem in the county ? 

Sheriff Walsh. I would say not now, not for about a year, since 
State's Attorney Boyle got these additional police who are assisting 
now in the slot-machine raids. 

Mr. Halley. How recently is that ? 

Sheriff Walsh. How recently^ I would say it is over a year. 

Mr. Halley. Since then, has'the gambling decreased considerably? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes. The slot machines now have. When I first 
came in office, the machines were up on bars in taverns. We have 
driven them to back rooms. We have driven them to putting them 
in steel cases, hiding them away, putting them in rooms, rolhng them 
out when they know everybody who is in the place, and rolhng them 
back when they feel somebody"^comes in that they don't know. 

Mr. Halley. What would be the situation on horse books at the 

Sheriff Walsh. On horse books, they keep springing up. We will 
make a raid at one location, and the follovdng week they will move 
2 blocks away in some basement. 

Mr. Halley. Where do they get their wire serviced Have you 
made an effort to find out? 

Sheriff Walsh. It is usually through their telephones. 

Mr. Halley. Do you get cooperation from the telephone company ( 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes, we do. The telephone company has been 
pretty good about removing phones. 

Mr. Halley. But they are able to get new phones and spring up 

again? , • ,^ ^ j.- 

Sheriff Walsh. They are able to get new phones m other locations. 
Mr H\lley. Sheriff, can you give the committee any information 
on organized crime in Chicago? Have you seen any evidence or do 
you have any information about the Capone group of gangsters and 
their successors, in Cook County ? 
Sheriff Walsh. In Cook County? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. ^ , , i ^ 

Sheriff W\lsh. Of course, all that I know about the Capone 
so-called syndicate, and that group, is what I read m the papers 
and what I read about what the crime commission has done to reveal 
their names. I have never come across any of them, myself, m my 
work in the sheriff's office. You never find those people m these 
books that we raid. You never find them m the taverns that we 
raid these slots in. They are never there. 

There is some evidence of organized gambling, I would say, because 
some of these taverns we have raided as many as 9 and 10 times and 
got convictions every time, and the slot machines keep coming back 



178 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTEI^STATE COMMERCE 

in again. It doesn't seem possible that these places would be able 
to put those slots up each time unless they had some help from 
someone else, unless some organization was behind it. 

]\Ir. Halley. Have you had any informants or information that 
the slot-machine business in the county is syndicate-controlled ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Just by hearsay and general rumors that the slot 
machines in many parts of the county were organized. We never 
have been able to get any proof. The owners, when we raid these 
slots, say they own the machines themselves. There is never any 
evidence we can ever get, when we make one of these raids, that 
ties in an organized group. 

Mr. Halley. Do you make any effort in the county to keep track 
of the people who are notorious as being the Capone syndicate gang- 
sters, to find out what they are doing? 

Sheriff Walsh. We have never made it a practice of doing that, 
because of the multitudinous duties we have. We have the regular 
police duties as well as making these raids. We have accidents on 
our highways. We have burglaries. We have robberies; stolen-car 
cases. We don't have any investigative staff, which that would 
require. 

Mr. Halley. I have no other questions. 

The Chairman. Mr. Eobinson ? 

Mr. Robinson. No, I don't think I have any. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, there have been some rumors and state- 
ments to the effect that gambling places run out in the county con- 
siderably, and that you can drive along and see a place where a lot 
of cars are, and you can go in and find that gambling is going on 
in there. Do you have any information about that? 

Sheriff Walsh. Would you be talking about a town that has 
its own police force ? 

The Chairman. No, I mean outside of the towns, apparently, 
some of the taverns. 

Sheriff Walsh. If there are any cars around there, our squads are 
instructed to go in and check on it and see if there is any gambling 
going on. 

The Chairman. How many such squads do you have or how many 
men do you have ? 

Sheriff Walsh. I have Mr. Greene, the chief of my highway police, 
here, in case jou want to ask him any questions. He has been in police 
work about 16 years. 

We have available in each station about three squads. You break 
them down into shifts and take time off' for furloughs and absenteeism 
and the like, and we have three squads for each station, approximately, 
on each duty. 

The Chairman. How many stations do you have ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Three stations. 

The Chairman. You do not undertake to do anything in the incor- 
porated cities? 

Sheriff Walsh. No ; we do not. I have written about 90 letters to 
the mayors of towns and incorporated areas, calling their attention to 
gambling violations which have been related to me, and in some cases 
we have gone in ourselves and made many raids. 

The Chairman. How about some of these towns ? They have had 
pretty bad enforcement, have they not? 

Sheri ff Walsh. Yes ; they have. 



ORGANIZEiD CRIME IX rXTERSTATE COMMERCE 179 

The Chairman. Do you not think you have a duty, where they have 
bad enforcement, to go in there? 

Sheriff Walsh. We have gone in there, Senator, many times. But 
our primary obligation is in the unincorporated areas. We have gone 
into many of those towns. 

The Chairman. How about political pressure on your operations i 
Do politicians try to get vou to lay-off? 

Sheriff Walsh. Xo ; I would say I get very little or no pressure from 
the politicians. I think that is accounted for because of the fact that 
when I was elected I decided I would have World War II veterans in 
the highwav police department. I was a veteran myself. I made a 
pledge that I would have veterans in that office and I got veterans m 
there. I would say that the largest percentage of them don't come 
through ward committemen or are men who have an obligation to the 
ward committeemen. 

The Chairman. You say "the largest percentage." Do you have 
quite a percent who come through ward committeemen? 

Sheriff Walsh. Oh, yes, we do. 

The Chairman. How do they come through ? 

Sheriff Walsh. The ward committeeman will recommend John Doe 
for a job as a highway policeman. He comes in the office and is inter- 
viewed by my assistant. He is fingerprinted. If he meets our quali- 
fications, and an FBI check is made on him and name checked, he is 
put on the job and we give him some training. 

The Chairman. Are those Democrat and Kepublican ward com- 
mitteemen ? 

Sheriff Walsh. I am a Republican. I am one of the few Repub- 
licans in Chicago in law enforcement. I am encircled around with 
Democrats, for the most part, here in Chicago. 

The Chairman. Who are some of the Republican ward committee- 
men we have been hearing about ? 

JSIr. Cahn. Anybodv from the river wards ? 

Sheriff Walsh. I could tell you about that. The river wards are 
the wards over — some names were mentioned today — Adducci, and 
Porcaro, and those fellows. They have a few jobs in my office, not 
very many. I gave them a kind of rough time because of the fact that 
they were not for me for sheriff. They were against me for sheriff. 
I ran for county treasurer in the primary last spring, and they were 
against me again, all that same group. So they didn't benefit by me 
being in office very much, from the patronage standpoint. 

The Chairman. You say "very much." How much did they benefit 
by vour being in office ? 

' Sheriff Walsh. They got about, I would say. about as much as the 
other ward committeemen. In other words, they got maybe a third less 
than the others did. Of course, an elected Republican committeeman 
is entitled to some patronage, but they didn't get very much from me. 

The Chairman. Is your office run on a patronage basis ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes, it is. It is not civil service. It is on a patron- 
age basis. And when my term expires in December and a new man 
comes in, ostensibly there will be a complete turn-over of employees. 

The Chairman. " You mean vou turned them all over when you got 
in? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes. I took over from a Democrat. The previous 
sheriff was a Democrat. When I came in office, I weeded out, I would 



180 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

say, 90 percent of the men he had in his ojffice. I kept about 10 per- 
cent of them, who were unusually good, I thoujiht. 

The CiTAiKMAN. That is a pretty bad business, is it not? 

Sherifl' Walsh. It is a bad business. It shouldn't be done. It 
should be civil service. I am in favor of civil service 

The Chairman. What would it take to make it civil service ? 

Sheriff Walsh. It takes an amendment of our State constitution. 

The Chairman. Can you not just pass a law in the legislature? 

Sheriff Walsh. No, they can't do that here. They have to amend 
the constitution. 

The Chairman. Do you have civil service for the county ? 

Sheriff Walsh. That is right. Because the sheriff's office is a fee 
office. I got an opinion on that when I was first elected. 

The Chairman. How are you paid, by salary or by fee ? 

Sheriff Walsh. I am paid by salary. 

The Chairman. How much do you make? 

Sheriff Walsh. $9,941 a year. 

The Chairman. Do yon get any fees in addition to that '. 

Sheriff Walsh. No fees in addition to that. 

The Chairman. How about your patrolmen, your deputies, are 
they all paid by fees ? 

Sheriff Walsh. They get $260 a month. They are paid the same 
way I am. None of them are paid on a fee basis. 

The Chairman. Where do the fees come in? 

Sheriff Walsh. The fees come in because the lawyers pay fees for 
the services of summons. It is called a fee office. 

The Chairman. Oh, yes. If the fees make it, all right. If they 
do not, you get your salary anyway ? 

Sheriff Walsh. We get our salary anyway. 

The Chairman. Is there any effort on the part of these racketeers 
or gangster elements to prevent you from being a candidate again for 
sheriff? 

Sheriff Walsh. I couldn't succeed myself, Senator, in this job. You 
cannot succeed yourself here anyhow for sheriff. I ran for county 
treasurer here, and the so-called river wards. West Side wards, were 
all against me when I ran for treasurer. 

The Chairman. Did you get nominated ? 

Sheriff Walsh. I was not nominated. I was defeated. 

The Chairman. So the river wards seems to be pretty powerful. 

Sheriff Walsh. They were against me. They were against me when 
I was elected sheriff, too. 

The Chairman. Mr. Boyle said he wrote a letter to you, and also to 
the police departments of all of these cities in the county, about hand- 
books, and that nothing much had been done about it. 

Sheriff Walsh. I would say that seven -hundred-and-some handbook 
raids is the best answer to that. Senator. That is what my record 
shows, and Mr. Boyle prosecuted all those cases. He should know. 

The Chairman. Maybe I did not state his testimony correctly. I do 
not want to cause any misunderstanding between yon and Mr. Boyle. 

How about Guzik and the Fischettis and these peopled Have you 
gotten them on any charges ? 

Sheriff Walsh. No; we never have. I don't even know them. I 
wouldn't know them except by what I read in the papers about them. 
I am new, of course, in public life and politics. I just came in when 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 181 

I <rot out of the service and was elected sheriff. Those names have 
been names that I have heard for 15 or 20 years, 25 years. 
The CiiAiKMAX. But you never came across them ? 
Sheriff Walsh. I have never come across them. 
The C'liAiKMAX. How about the Mafia or the Unione Siciliano i 
Sheriff Walsh. I have never come across them at alh 
The Chaikmax. Do you and the police department here m the city 
lia\e liaison where yoi\ work together, or do you eacli go your own 

^' ^Sheriff Walsh. We have liaison. Mayor Kennelly was kind enough 
to assign one Chicago policeman to me, and that one Chicago police- 
man is the liaison between my office and Commissioner Prendergast. 
If we have anvthing, if I get complaints on anything m Chicago, I give 
it to him and "he turns it over to Commissioner Prendergast. 

The Chairmax. Do you have any method of working out or ex- 
changing information and reports^ . 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes. I have talked to Commissioner Prendergast 
many times about complaints I have received. 

Tiie Ghaiemax. I do not mean talking with him. I mean do you 
send him information about reports^ . i ^^ t -ii 

Sheriff W^^lsh. Xo. If I get a letter, if I were to get a letter, i will 
send the letter to him, about some gambling in Chicago. 

Tlie Chairmax. Then how about the State governments Do you 
have any system of exchanging information with their State enforce- 
ment agency? . 1 , , J. ^1 4. 

Sheriff Walsh. We have nothing particularly set up, except that 
the lieutenants and my chief are in touch with the State police, and 
they cooperate with us very well. , , _, „ . , 

The Chah^max. But you do not send the State all your information, 
and they do not send you all of theirs? 

Sheriff Walsh. No. • ^ 4: 

The Chairmax. Are there any efforts at paying oft you or any ot 
your people, or trying to bribe you to cooperate ? 

^ Sheriff Walsh. I have never been approached, nor do i know ot 
any of my people who have been approached. I have let some people 
out of my office because I suspected that they might be taking money, 
shakino- down people and the like, but I have no information that any 
of my police have ever taken any money, nor have I ever told any of 
my police to let a place go. ... . w 

Mr H\LLEY. Can you aet a high type of law-enforcement officer 
for $260 a month without any tenure, and with the full expectation 
of being turned out of office at the end of the term ? ^ ^ tt n 

Shpi-Tff Walsh. I would say it is very difficult to do that, Mr. Halley, 
very difficult. I think civil service, if it goes through here, and the 
Gateway amendment is passed which will probably open the door tor 
civil service it will do a whole lot for the police department. There 
has been some talk here of consolidating all the police forces in the 
county, which I think might have some merit. That means to have 
all the police in all these towns, 850 in aggregate number m all the 
various towns, and the sheriff's police and the State police, consoli- 
dated in one group, where there would be no divided authority, iliat 
has some possibility of being worked out, and the civic fecleration has 
been talking about that for the last couple of years. That may be 
the answer to it. 



182 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. That sounds like something that is worth looking 
into. 

Sheriff Walsh. That is right, sir. 

The CiiAiRMAN^. Any other questions, gentlemen? 

Mr. Cahn, did you have some things written down there? 

Mr. Cahn. No, thank you. 

The Chairman. George? 

Mr. White. No. 

The Chairman. Mr. Kobinson? 

Mr. Robinson. No. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, we would be very glad to have you consider 
the problem that we are looking into, and have you make any recom- 
mendations that you think of where the Federal Government could be 
of assistance, any laws that might be amended or passed that would 
help with the local law enforcement problems. I think we sent you 
a letter. 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes ; I received it. 

The Chairman. I do not know whether I got an answer from you, 
or not. 

Slieriff Walsh. Yes ; I wrote an answer. 

The Chairman. If you think of anything else, you let us know. 

Sheriff Walsh. I suggested in the letter about the telephones being 
taken out of books and slot machines. 

The Chairman. I think at this point we might make the sheriff's 
reply to our letter a part of the record. 

Sheriff Walsh. I think I sent in two letters. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

(The letters referred to are identified as exhibit No. 25, and appear 
in the appendix on p. 1381.) 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Sheriff Walsh. 

Sheriff Walsh. Let me know if I can be of any help later. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

(Brief recess.) 

TESTIMONY OF OTTO KERNER, JR., UNITED STATES ATTORNEY, 
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS 

Mr. Halley. JNIr. Kerner, would you state to the committee, for the 
committee's record, what you can add to the picture you have already 
heard, of law enforcement in Cook County? 

Mr. Kerner. In my 31/0 years as United States attorney in this 
district, to my knoAvledge law enforcement locally has been as good 
as the law allows it to be. 

We in our office have worked with the State's attorney, and in the 
many matters where there is concurrent jurisdiction we have worked 
in cooperation. 

In recent months, for example, is the Brinks murder case, in Avhich 
the defendant, Jakalski, was tried twice for murder, and Tamborski 
was tried once for murder in one of the cases against Tamjorski, but 
they were not successful, and we returned an indictment here for ag- 
gravated bank robbery. The State's attorney relinquished jurisdic- 
tion of the case in order that the Federal jurisdiction may take over 
under the Federal bankino; laws. 



OEGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE OOMMEECE 183 

There lias been a series of cases which either he has relinquished 
jurisdiction or we have, where we thought that justice would be swifter 
and the punishment more certain and probably more severe. 

Mr. Halley. Is your cooperation with the State's attorney good? 

Mr. Kerner. Yes, excellent, I would say ; excellent. I have never 
received any harassment nor has any hurdle been placed in our way 
in any case that we took over, and I think that Mr. Boyle would prob- 
ably say the same about our office. 

In the 3 years, I would estimate that in criminal matters the county 
and the Federal Government have had approximately 500 or GOO cases 
in which there was concurrent jurisdiction, such as stolen automobile 
cases, robbery cases, cases generally of that nature. Whenever I have 
requested any information of Mr. Boyle in the furtherance of any case 
in which there was concurrent jurisdiction or in cases where we have 
sole jurisdiction and we thought the State's attorney would have infor- 
mation about it, they have willingly turned it over to us. 

For instance, yesterday morning an assistant State's attorney called 
me and stated that he had a couple of men in his office who knew the 
whereabouts of Matt Capone. the alias he was using, that of Hunter, 
where he was located. That information, I turned over to the United 
States marshal, since I presumed he might have subpenas from this 
committee ; and I read by this morning's papers that Matt Capone was 
found, and I presume that it was based upon that information. 

That, I say, is typical of the type of cooperation that I have had from 
Mr. Boyle. 

As to my experience with certain of these named individuals whose 
names I have seen in the paper, such as Accardo, Bernstein, and certain 
hoodlums located in other parts of the United States, my only contact 
with them, of course, has been strictly a legal one. As you probably 
know, and as the record will show, the parole warrants against three 
of the parolees, Campagna. Gioe, and DeLucia, were issued out of this 
district. Campagna and Gioe were sent off to the Atlanta Peniten- 
tiary. DeLucia fought the Government on that matter through a 
petition for a writ of habeas corpus, and was successful both in the 
district court and in the Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit. 

At the time we learned that there might possibly be grounds for a 
parole revocation, a Federal grand jury was given all information 
concerning the doings of these parolees ; and all of the parolees, Cam- 
pagna, Gioe, DeLucia, and D'Andrea, were before the grand jury. We 
sought information both as to the manner of obtaining their paroles 
and also as to their conduct since the paroles were granted, and I was 
impressed by the fact that names such as Vogel or Ricca from New 
York showed up, names like Tony Gizzo from Kansas City, and there 
w^as an admission, both by the parolees and by Gizzo, that they knew 
each other, and apparent!}^ knew each other through attending race 
tracks and various sporting events, betting, and things of that nature. 

I also was impressed by the fact that members of the parolee'? 
families, on visiting Kansas City, in their A'isits to Leavenworth t^ 
visit their husbands, were pretty much taken care of, their wants 
taken care of, transportation, were taken care of by Tony Gizzo ot* 
some employee of his. 

The telephone company, of course, provided to us, on subpena, the 
telephone reports or billings in the homes of these parolees, and that 



184 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

is wliere I noticed t'liat t'liere were telephone calls to aiid from Vogel 
to llicca in New York, which shows at least an ac(iuaintaiiceship or 
friendship between these individuals. At that time I talked to Virgil 
Peterson about it, and Mr. Peterson and I had severa^ conservations 
^ind luncheons at which we discussed this apparent t,ie-up among the 
hoodlums or the hoodlum element in the Chicago area with elements 
throughout various parts of the country. 

In that parole investigation, of course, )ye' had very many FBI 
reports, and the names of many hoadlums throughout the country 
showed up in those reports, and of course, the names of many inno- 
cent people as well, who had nothing to do with it and who were per- 
fectly good, reliable business people or professional people. 

At that time, I concluded in my own mind, certainly, if there was 
not a syndicate or Mafia or some organized group throug-'hout the 
Nation, certainly they were on more than just friendly speaking terms 
with one another, and the theory of Mr. Peterson that there was a 
national group working together loomed in my mind as a good prob- 
ability or possibility. 

During the conduct of that grand jury investigation, I received no 
direct evidence, that would stand up in a court of law, that there was 
any such organization. Also, the records of this court will show 
that an indictment was returned against Tony Accardo and Eugene 
Bernstein for violation of old sections 80 and S8 of title 18. One, 
title 80, of course, is the ol/:l section of title 18 before September 1, 
1948, which made it a crime- to deprive a Government agency or official 
of exercising its judgment. Title 88, of course, is a general conspiracy 
clause. Under that indictment, Tony Accardo and Eugene Bern- 
stein were tried in this court, and a jury found them not guilty of a 
violation of either section, title 80 or 88. 

Mr. Halley. To what do you attribute the acquittal ? 

Mr. Keener. The jury — for what reason, I cannot answer, because 
I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Was an FBI investigation made of the jury? 

Mr. Kerner. No, an FBI investigation was not made of the jury, 
because I was convinced that the jury, in my mind, were above suspi- 
cion, and they in their own mind, I am certain, did a very conscientious 
job. I remember particidarly the fact that that jury went out, I 
believe, on a Friday, and stayed out overnight. They came back 
and asked for reinstructions by the court, and then went back. I did 
learn that several people, I don't recall the exact number, I think run- 
ning three or four, wished to find the two defendants guilty. The 
balance of the jury were voting for not guilty. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever find the reason? Did they feel that 
there just wasn't a crime involved ? 

Mr. Kerner. Several of the jurors told me that after the testimony of 
Gordon Hunter, of Leavenworth Penitentiary, that he would have 
allowed Accardo in the pi'ison even if he knew his real name, and that, 
coupled with the instruction that was presented by the defendants' 
counsel that if the jury believed that the warden would have let them 
into the penitentiary regardless of what name they used, they should 
find the defendants guilty, on that basis they said they changed 
their A'ote and did not hold out for a guilty verdict, and voted with the 
majority of the jurors under what we call the shotgun or the Adams 
instruction. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 185 

Mr Halley. Did vou look into the counsel that they employed in 
obttiininff their parole, and the fees paid for the parole^? 

Mr Kerxpr. Yes. All of that Avas investigated. The only person 
whom we did not have before the grand jury was the president or the 
chairman of tne parole board, who died just about the time that we 
were bt -'nnincr our grand- jurv investigation. I have forgotten his 
name of hand, but h.e came from :Mississippi.; All the other parole 
board members were "bt fore the grand jury. ; 

We of course, asked the questions, and the grand ]urors were tree 
to ask questions of them at anv time, which they did. As a matter of 
fact Dr Killinger, who is now chairman of the parole board, wa& 
appointed during the pendencv of that grand jury, which lasted ap- 
proximately IT months intermittently, olf and on, and even Dr. Kil- 
linger appeared before that grand jury and testified. 

Mr. Halley. Did Hughes testify? , , . ,-n . 

Mr. Kekxer. Yes; Maury Hughes was subpenaed and he testitiecl. 

Mr H \LLEY. What was his story, in effect ? 

Mr Kerxer. His story, in effect, was the same story that was given 
bv him before the congressional committee in Washington, that some 
chap came to his office, his law office in Texas, and said that he wanted 
him to intervene in the matter and obtain a dismissal of another in- 
dictment pending against these same defendants m the court m the 
southern district of New York, and he asked the sum of $15,000 tor 
those leo-al services. That he did proceed to New 1 ork, and that the 
indictment was dismissed. He was not certain whether he caused it 
or whether the policv of the Department of Justice caused the dismissal 
of that indictment. " That he was paid originally the sum of $1,000 in 
a hotel here in Chicago, in $100 bills, and that after the indictment was 
dismissed he received the sum of $11,000 m cash m New York Uty, 
which he then took to the Hibernia Bank— is there such a bank m xNew 
York City? 

]Mr. Halley. Yes. . i • , i i tt 

Mr Kerxer And there changed the bills into a cashier s check. Me 
could not identify the individual. He didn't have the individuaFs 
address. The name that was given was an Irish name. I don t recall it 
at the present moment. 

Mr. Demsreux. Kyan. ^ t i ,. i i ii 

Mr Kerxer. Ryan. He stated that the individual didn t look like an 
individual who would naturally bear the name of Ryan; that he was 
swarthy in color and looked to be of ]SIediterranean descent, but he 
never received any telephone number from this man or any address. 

This individual always contacted him. and he never contacted him, 
nor would he ever be able to coiftact him. He was unable to give any 
identification to the grand jury as to who this Ryan individual might 

truly be. 

Mr. Halley. Did Dillon testify ? 

I^lr Kerxer. Dillon did testify. We had difficulty m ourainmg 
service on Mr. Dillon. We had a subpena out for him. We were not 
able to find him at Ins home or his office in St. Louis, and we received 
various reports that he was traveling in and about the country. New 
Mexico back to St. Louis and out East. 

We finally did locate him in Brookline, Mass., a suburb to the west 
of Boston. As soon as I found that out. I got in touch with the marshal 

68958— 51— pt. 5 13 



186 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

in Boston, who served a subpena card upon Mv. Dillon, and Mr. Dillon 
then reported here to Chicago. Mr. Dillon did appear before the 
grand jury and testified. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever ascertain who made the contact for these 
people with Dillon? 

Mr. Kernek. Yes. Mrs. Campagna testified that she went to Dillon 
through Wilhe Heeney, through Putty Nose Grady, and was sent to 
Dillon through that means, that channel ; and that she employed Dillon 
to intervene on behalf of her husband, I am not certain whether slie 
said on behalf of DeLucia as well, but certainly on her husband's 
•behalf before the parole board; and that he received the sum of 
$10,000, which check we had in our possession, and as an exhibit be- 
fore the grand jury, a $10,000 check made out by the First National 
Bank of Cicero, I believe that is the bank. I believe it is located on 
the northwest corner of Cicero and Cermak Koad in Cicero ; no Austin 
and Cermak Road. ' 

Mr. Halley. Who brought Hughes into the case? Was Dillon the 
counsel of record handling the matter ? 

Mr. Kerner. Dillon was the counsel before the parole board 
Hughes' name never came into any matter, so far as the parole was 
concerned. Hughes" only appearance in the matter at all was his ap- 
pearance m the southern district of New York to obtain the dis- 
missal of the other pending indictment, which had not been tried and 
was left pending after the extortion trial or the antiracketeerin*.- in- 
dictment was tried successfully. '^ 

Mr. Halley. Where did Bernstein fit into the picture? 

Mr. Kerner. Bernstein fitted into that picture in only one in- 
stance—no, in several instances. Bernstein, from the testimonv of 
Dei^ucia and Campagna, was their tax attorney, and he appeared" and 
did visit Campagna and DeLucia while they were incarcerated at 
Leavenworth, and I am not certain at this time whether he also made 
a visit or two, I believe he did, while they were incarcerated at Atlanta 
He made a number of visits to Leavenworth, and on one of these visits 
to Leavenworth he was accompanied by Tony Accardo, who used the 
name of Joseph Bulger, which is the same "name which was raised 
earlier m the session. His name previouslv was Joseph Imburcrio 
He at one time, I understand, was mayor of Melrose Park, an attorney, 
and also the same Joseph Bulger who was mentioned by DeLucia I 
believe, before your committee, as the president of tlie American- 
Italian Society. Bulger— rather, Accardo, using the name of Bul^^cr 
m signing the register of the visitors at Leavenworth Penitentiary, 
entered Leavenwortli Penitentiary and visited with Campagna and 
DeLucia at the same time they were ndsited by Bernstein. 

I believe there were severalof those visits. 'l don't recall the exact 
number. I would say my best recollection at the present time is not 
more than four. There was more than one, but I don't believe more 
than tour. 

The grand jury indicted Accardo and Bernstein on those char^res, 
and that is the indictment I spoke of before. ^ 

Mr. Halley. Did any of the lawyers figure in the parole picture? 

Air. Kerner. To what lawyers do you have reference, Mr. Halley? 

Mr. Halley. Representing Campagna, Ricca, and Gioe. 

Mr. Kerner. No; the attorneys that represented Accardo and Bern- 
stem m the trial of the indictment here were George Callaluvu and 



ORGANIZED CRIME- IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 187 

another lawyer whose name just temporarily slips my mind. I have 
known him and met him when I was practicing law privately as a 
foreclosure lawyer, a real-estate lawyer, a general civil lawyer m the 

local courts. . -, ■, j^-, j- 

Mr. H ALLEY. At the moment, I have m mind, rather, the proceedings 

to obtain the parole. ^^ ^- u 

My Kerxer. The onlv attorneys who came to our attention who 
figTired in the parole at all were Dillon and another lawyer from North 
Dakota, whose name I doirt presently have in my mind. 

^Ir. RoBiNsox. A lawyer from North or South Dakota represented 

Phil b'Andrea. ^ ^w -, i it, 

Mr Kerner. He represented Phil D'Andrea alone, and he was 
brou<rht into the matter, as I recall, by Phil D'Aiidrea's brother, who 
interested this lawyer up in the Dakotas to intervene on Phil 
D'Andrea's behalf . „-,..■, i • 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't there any evidence of political pressure being 
brought to bear to obtain the parole? 

]\Ir. Kerner. No : not from any evidence or testimony that we had ; 

absolutely not. . -, . , ^ ^^ t 

Mr. Halley. Was the situation one m which, unless the parole 
board" was misled, a parole would ordinarily be expected to be granted ? 

:Mr. Kerner. Let me say that in my experience m the last 31/2 years, 
normally— I am speaking only of my experience m these years- 
parole is normally granted to Federal prisoners upon their completion 
of a third of their sentence, if they have proved to the prison author- 
ities that they are rehabilitated in their minds and have been good 
prisoners. That, I say, is the normal procedure in my experience 
The only prisoner sent away from this district who was not paroled 
at the expiration of one-third of his sentence was William Johnson, 
who was convicted in this court before I came in here, I believe m the 
middle forties, for income-tax evasion. As I recall, the newspapers 
wrote some matters about that. A third of his sentence expired at or 
about the time this parole jury was in session. It is my personal 
opinion that that had a great deal to do with his not being paroled 
at that time. He has since been paroled, and only recently settled 
with the Treasury Department on the taxes that they thought were 
due on his income-tax return, which was not handled by my office. 

Mr. Halley. Was the parole of these people recommended by the 
iDi-osecuting attorney ? ,1^1 

Mr Iverner. I do not know. You see, these defendants were in- 
dicted and tried in the southern district of New York. I understand 
that the judge at the time of the sentence advised by letter that these 
men should not be considered for parole. I believe that the prosecu- 
tor was Mr. Kostelanetz, and I don't recall whether he was even asked 
for his recommendation. I don't know. , -r n -r, • 1 

Mr. EoBiNSON. I believe he was, and both he and Judge Brighton 
were rather violently opposed to it. 

Mr Halley. Was the jurisdiction of your grand ]ury connected 
Avith the parole, or with the visits to the prison under the assumed 

name ' 

Mr.' Kerner. No; it was started to investigate the granting of the 
paroles, but during the course of which we found out that Accardo and 
Bernstein visited the penitentiary, and Accardo under the name of 
Joseph Bulger. 



188 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INO-ERSTATE ClOMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Did your grand jury come after the congressional 
investigation? 

Mr. Kerner. As to jwint of time, I would say they were almost 
simultaneous. I think the congressional liearings started maybe a few 
days, maybe a week before, about that period of time. 

Mr. Halley. Were you able to get statistics on whether the Parole 
Board made a practice of granting paroles over the objection of the 
trial judge and the prosecuting officer? 

Mr. Keener. No. I have no experience in that whatsoever. I don't 
know what tlieir practice is. 

Mr. Halley. What did the two members of the Parole Board who 
came before the grand jury have to say about it? 

Mr. Kerner. One of them, Mr. Rogers, I think was the one who in- 
terviewed these parolees. He had been assigned the circuit for that 
parole hearing. He interviewed them and said he made his report 
back. Mr. Monkiewicz, the other member of the Parole Board, did 
not interview them, but sat in at the time the i)arole interviews were 
considered by the three members of the Parole Board, Judge AVilson, 
Mr. Rogers, and Mr. Monkiewicz. I believe he comes from Con- 
necticut. 

Mr. Halley. Did they conclude that the case for parole was suffi- 
ciently strong that the decision of the judge and the district attorney 
should be overlooked ? Is that what they testified ? 

Mr. Kerner. I don't believe any such question was asked, in my 
recollection. I did not sit in on all sessions of that grand jury, so 
I can't be positive, but my recollection is that they were not asked^hat 
question. But I did sit in while certain questions were asked as to 
why the parole was granted; and a summary, just the sum and sub- 
stance of their testimony, is that the interview, their prison record, 
their parole programs were sufficiently good to merit their being 
granted a parole. 

Mr, Robinson. Weren't they interviewed by the Chairman of the 
Board himself, Mr. Kerner? 

Mr. Kerner. My recollection is not ; that Mr. Rogers interviewed 
them. ■ I am not positive of that at this point, so much water has gone 
over the dam since then, but my recollection is that Mr. Rogers inter- 
viewed them. 

Mr. Robinson. I think the Chairman interviewed them. There is a 
transcript of his interview in the Holfman hearings. 

Mr. Kerner. That may be so. 

Mr. Halley. De Lucia testified, as I recall it, that Accardo visited 
him about the tax case rather than about the parole. Does that jibe 
v.ith the testimony before the grand jury? 

Mr. Kerner. Yes. As I recall, De Lucia stated that Accardo knew 
of certain of his lioldmgs, and was there to assist Mr. Bernstein and 
De Lucia m the preparation of tax returns. I personally didn't believe 
that, but I have nothing in my possession or reach to disprove it 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't Mr. Bernstein testify that he had difficulty 
in getting his questions across to De Lucia, and that Mr. Bulger rec- 
ommended somebody to go down with him who could s])eak ftalian? 

Mr. Kerner. Yes. During the trial of the case, Bernstein did 
make the statement that he was unable to understand DeLucia's lan- 
guage, his pronunciation, and that Mrs. Campagna got Mr. Accardo 
to go down to act as an interpreter. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 189 

But all the testimony of the guards in the trial of the case, and the 
testimony of Bernstein himself, who took the stand in that case, was 
that all tiie exchange of ideas or words was all in the English language ; 
as a matter of fact, that while Mr. Bernstein was interviewing Mr. 
DeLucia, Accardo was talking to Campagna; and when Bernstein 
was interviewing Campagna, Accardo was conversing with DeLucia. 

Mr. Halley. I wonder if probably the best thing to do would be for 
the connnittee to apply for an order to get the grand jury minutes, 
rather than putting you in the position of relying on your recollection. 

Mr. Kerner. If you have any particular points, I see no reason why 
I can't look at mj^' grand jury minutes to refresh my recollection so 
that I can be certain of details. However, as to whether the grand 
jury minutes can be released to the committee is a matter solely within 
thediscretion of the Attorney General. By law, I cannot release them. 

Mr. HALLEy . I believe even if he agrees, you must get a court order, 
must you not ? 

Mr. Kerner. There are decisions on that ; yes. 

Mr. Hallet. Perhaps we can withhold judgment on that question 
and work in cooperation on making a study of the grand jury minutes 
ancl the record of the congressional investigation, and see if it opens 
up any avenues which should be further pursued here. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Halley. Getting back on the record, are there any other matters 
pertaining to law enforcement that I think you would like to tell the 
committee about at this time? 

Mr. Kerner. The question of .narcotics is one which was raised 
here todav. I have been informed unofficially by Mr. August, the 
agent in charge of the Narcotic Bureau for the Midwest area, that the 
use of heroin has increased 86 percent in the Chicago area. A year 
ago last June— June of 1949— additional narcotics agents were brought 
into this area and worked under cover June, July, and so forth, up 
until December, the week end just before Christmas 1949, when the 
zero hour was set and Sergeant Mangum of the narcotic detail, Chicago 
Police Department, who works in close cooperation with the Narcotic 
Bureau of the Treasury Department, with police officers went out 
and made many arrests and pick-ups. That night, beginning on 
Friday evening, by Saturday morning at around 8 or 9 or 10 o'clock, 
we had picked up approximately 180 narcotic violators. The biggest 
violator we picked up was a chap by the name of Filisho, who had 
counterfeiting tie-ups as well as narcotic tie-ups. We are not naive 
enough to believe that we are at the top in the narcotic situation, but 
Filisho we believe is the biggest cog that we picked up in that raid. 
There is no tie-up from our evidence with any of these hoodlums at 
this point in the narcotic trade. 

Mr. KoBiNSON. How did vou spell his name ? 

Mr. Kerner. Filisho. He still has a case pending here in tins 
court. 

Mr. Robinson. AVHiat is the first name ? 

Mr. Kerner. I don't recall his first name. 

^.Iv. Robinson. Do you know him by Fogge or Ben ? 

Mr. Kerner. I doii't know. These characters have so many names 
and aliases that I would have to look in iny repoi-ts to detennine just 
what familiar names are attributed to him. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know where he lives ? 



190 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE C03VIMERCE 

]Mr. Kerner. Yes. He lived on the West Side in what was previ- 
ously referred to as one of the river wai'ds on the West Side. 

Mr. Robinson. Did the name of Isadore Levin come into that 
narcotic situation? 

Mr. Kerner. That sounds familiar. I have a complete list of them, 
but I can look over it to determine it if you would like me to. because 
we have them all listed, all those who were suspected and against 
whom we had evidence and were trying to i)ick up. I have a complete 
list on them, both by their true names and their familiar names and 
their aliases. As a matter of fact, I see no reason why I can't get a 
copy of that and just turn it over to you for whatever value it may be. 
I prepared several such lists. 

Mr. Halley. Where do you think we might find concrete activities 
of this Capone syndicate today, bearing in mind of course that this 
committee is not confined to law violations of either Federal or State 
law. that this conunittee has the right to ask questions which a witness 
might be entitled to refuse to answer at least before a State grand 
jury, and that the committee has the right to jump over State lines 
pretty broadly. 

Mr. Kerner. After the little experience I have had with these 
people I have certainly concluded in my own mind that, other than 
these parolees who have of course a terrific lot hanging over their 
heads if they refuse to answer your questions, that the only place you 
might find evidence of it is among the hangers-on, the boys around 
the fringe. It has been my experience that in the examination of 
these people certain hangers-on who are not too smart give you pearls 
that you can follow up. That is the way we found out the tie-up of, 
for instance, Tony Gizzo in this picture. 

Mr. Halley. Can you suggest any candidates? Or would you like 
to look through j^our" files? 

Mr. Iverner. No; I cannot. However, I can do this: There are 
still several men in the office, several assistant United States attorneys 
who were here at the time of the Johnson-Skidmore jury investiga- 
tions and prosecutions. I will discuss it with them and see if they 
have any certain names in mind. Of course in our grand jury hearing 
we had people like Corngold, Heeney, who are practicallv passe. I 
imagine, in this picture. 

Mr. Halley. Isn't Heeney still running a joint? 
Mr. Kerner. The last I knew of Heeney he was running a joint 
with Corngold that previously had been run with Campagna on 
Cermak Road out near Austin, I think 5800-something, I think a 
bowling alley and a book. Heeney to me at the time appeared to be 
a very sick man and fading away. As we saw him from month to 
month we could practically see him fading away. I don't know what 
his physical condition or mental condition is at the present time. 
I haven't seen him since that time. 

We also had Jones in before us, who had admittedly been a partner 
of Hymie Levin and another name of a partner. Phil Katz, in a wire 
service. They had their offices on State Street between Lake and 
Randolph Streets somewhere. 

Mr. Robinson. The R & H Publishing Co. 

Mr. Kerner. That is right. And there is also an office on Lake 
Street around the 600 block, where we traced certain telephone calls 



ORGAKIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 191 

tliat looked rather suspicious. These people were quite frank in 
telling us what their business was, who their partners were, what 
their wire business consisted of, where their wires went to, and what 
they received in the way of rental for the service. 

Mr. Halley. They didn't implicate, however, any of the Capone 
syndicate members, did they? 

Mr. Kerner. I am not quite certain exactly who you mean by tlie 
Capone syndicate figures. If we are talking about the same thing, 
the names that are mentioned in the newspapers, yes, Hymie Levin 
is supposed to be in that crowd, Corngokl, Campagna, DeLucia, Gioe, 
D'Andrea's name is listed among that group. 

JNIr. Hallet. They say they have no business now at all, Gioe and 
Campagna and Ricca. Are they supposed to be in this wire service? 

Mr. Kerner. Xo. They w^ere never reputed to be in the wire 
service. The only one who was tied up witli the wire service in any 
way was at the end of a wire service, running a book in Cicero with 
Heeney and Corngokl. 

That was the end of the line so far as the wire service is concerned 
because that was the place where they took bets and supposedly 
paid off. 

Mr. Hallet. Have you any questions? 

Mr. RoBixsox. Along that line, Mr. Kerner, did you ever run into 
anj'thing that indicated that instead of being interested solely in 
Avhat came out the other end of the line, they were interested in con- 
trolling the beginning of the line? 

Mr. Keener. No; there was no indication from anything that we 
found. 

Campagna, of course, when he was in, freely admitted that he at one 
time ran slot machines before he was tried and sentenced. As a mat- 
ter of fact, investigations of his income-tax returns showed a return 
of income from slot machines as well as the bookie establishment, 
which is probably common knowledge to the committee by this time. 

Mr. Robinson. Either on or off the record, would you care to com- 
ment as to the extent of the cooperation or lack of cooperation be- 
tween the local law-enforcement officials here, the sheriff's office, the 
State's attorney's office, the commissioner of police's office ? 

Mr. Keener. The only thing I know of, and this is on the record, 
is of course what I read in the newspapers. I have no personal knowl- 
edge whatsoever. I know at any time I have requested anything of 
the Chicago Police Department, I have received their full coopera- 
tion as well as from the State's attorney's office, as I say, the local 
police. The only matter which I have had which directly affected the 
sheriff was the turn-over of prisoners, which was a peculiar set of 
circumstances in this Brinks murder case, and the sheriff was cooper- 
ative with the Federal Government in that. But in any direct request 
that I have had to any law-enforcing agenc}^ in this vicinity, we have 
received their full cooperation, even to the degree of letting us have 
records, confidential files, and things of that nature. 

Mr. Robinson. I am not speaking so much of their cooperation with 
you but of their cooperation among themselves. 

Mr. Iverner. The only thing I know, as I said before, is what I 
have read in the newspapers, which you have heard here today, of 
the State's attorney writing letters to the sheriff and the sheriff writing 
letters to the State's attorney. In my recollection, since I have been 



192 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INiTERSTATE CiOMMERCE 

an adult, I don't recall that there has been ever, shall I say, the fric- 
tion between the sheriff's office and the State's office as there has 
been in recent years, where the State's attorney has been required 
to go out and actually do the sheriff's work. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any views on the arithmetic of the situa- 
tion which indicates that the sheriff did pick up something like 1,400 
slot machines, and the State's attorney with the aid of 75 policemen 
was able to pick up only 500 more, which of course is a substantial 
number. The arithmetic doesn't seem to be too much of an indication 
of the sheriff's falling down unless there are certain other factors. 

Mr. Keener. Let me say this : It is my recollection that not many 
slot machines were picked up by the sheriff's office until the newspaper? 
began putting the heat on him, so to speak, and that the State's attor- 
ney, of course, if we want to put it on an arithmetical basis, the State's 
attorney has been doing it for a period, as I recall, of roughly a year 
and a half. The sheriff has been in office for practically his full terra 
of almost 4 years. Certainly in my time the State's attorney has not 
been doing much of that. That always has been considered, in my 
mind as a citizen and a lawyer, the sheriff's job rather than the State's 
attorney's job. However, I am not familiar with the full details and 
the full powers of each of the offices. I find that this office here rather 
ties me up and keeps me busy. 

Mr. Halley. I am sure it does. 

Anything further? Mr. Cahn, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Caiin. If I may, just a few brief questions following up Mr. 
Robinson's. 

Mr. Kerner, I am wondering — you heard the sheriff's comments to 
the effect that there might be some merit in this idea of consolidation 
of the forces, the sheriff's force, the State's attorney force, and so on. 
Just speaking offhand, w^ould you say that there would also be merit 
in that consolidation proposal ? Is there overlapping and duplication ? 

Mr. Kerner. Yes; definitely. As a matter of fact, I am a member 
of the criminal law committee of the Chicago Bar and Illinois Bar 
Associations. That question has arisen there among us, but, of course, 
we all feel rather helpless and hopeless until something is done about 
our State constitution, because it wasn't until recently that within the 
city of Chicago the parks were run by the State of Illinois. I have 
forgotten how many different corporations there were wdthin the city 
of Chicago ; in other words, a separate corporation for each park. 
Those were consolidated only recently. 

There is presently pending or will be pending before the voters of 
the State of Illinois what is commonly called Gateway amendment, 
which amended a law — by the way, I also am serving on that commit- 
tee of the Chicago Bar Association, the constitutional amendment 
committee, now called presently the Gateway committee — an amend- 
ment to the Illinois Constitution which will allow three articles of 
the constitution to be amended in any one legislative session. Under 
our law here our legislature meets only in the odd years or once in 2 
years, unless a special session is called, and, of course, there has to be 
some crying, important, immediate need before a special session is 
called by the Governor. You can appreciate that with Cook County 
up here and even Lake County, north of us, considered in a down- 
State bloc, there has been this friction in the State legislature that 
prevents good legislation from being passed. I think just as soon as 



ORGA^•IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJVIERCE 193 

the voters agree that the Gateway amendment is a good thing and 
then the voters join together to insist upon consolidation of forces, I 
think law enforcement will be in a better state of repair than it is now. 
There are too many overlapping jurisdictions and duties, m my 
opinion. 

Mr. Cahx. Would you also have some comments, Mr. Kerner, on 
the subject of the patronage nature of the sheriff's office? Would you 
concur in what the sheriff said about the importance of putting that 
on a civil-service basis ? 

Mv. Kerxer. I am not certain in my own mind that civil service is 
the answer to all evil, frankly. I can see a lot of good in civil service. 
I can see evil in it. I think it was demonstrated here today in the 
police department. The mayor is frustrated in what he can do with 
a captain he doesn't like or a captain in whom he does not have com- 
plete confidence. I think that is one of the disadvantages of civil 
service. However, I think a good public official is one who chooses 
his personnel properly on the sole basis of "Is he the best person" or 
"Is she the best woman to fill a vacancy in a certain job." I think 
without civil service, you can get just as good if not better people in 
the various jobs. Patronage, spoils of war, of course, has been one 
of the costly items of our democracy, regardless of what party is m 
power, and I think we all freely and honestly admit that. In my 
office, for instance, approximately two-thirds of my staff is under 
Federal civil service. All the attorneys in my office are appointees. 
They are appointed by the Attorney General of the United States. 
I think that the lawyers in my office are very able young men. They 
are honest, thev are sincere, they are aggressive, and intelligent. I 
have never heard any criticism against any of the people m my office. 
They are not civil service. . tt • i 

Of course, the reward for doing a good job as an assistant United 
States attorney I admit is probablv greater than that of being a process 
server in the sheriff's office, and I don't think you can compare one 
against the other. But I can see advantages and disadvantages, and 
I'^would say one of the major disadvantages is if an office is put under 
civil service, I think you can bet your bottom dollar that all the people 
who will qualify for civil service during that period of time will be 
members of the party in power. I don't think any of us are naive 
enough not to recognize that fact. . ■, -, , 

Mr. Cahn. Since your father is one of the distinguished members 
of the bench of this area, I wonder if the judges of this area have 
ever presented a formal recommendation for improving the admin- 
istration of justice. 

Mr. I^RNER. As a matter of fact, I think that is done constantly m 
the Federal system because of the judicial conferences which are held 
each year, and I think any of us who are familiar at all with the 
Federal practice and the judiciary system knows that they constantly 
are improving. I cite for example the improvement in the civil and 
criminal rules, the passage of the new judiciary act, which was really 
done in combination with lawyers who practice in the Federal juris- 
diction, and the jndges. Yes; I think that conferences of that sort 
always lend toward improvement and simplification. 

Mr Caiin. Mr. Kerner, how does the Illinois area, the United 
States attorney's office, differ from other areas? We presume of 
course there is more crime, more violent crime, and so on, but I wonder 



194 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN IXrTERSTATE COMMERCE 

if you would state from your knowledge of the problems faced by 
other United States attorneys, w^ierein your problems differ in degree 
or in nature from theirs? 

Mr. Kerner. Oh, I suppose if we were to make a comparison of 
that— and this is just my opinion, and I have seen no figures and facts 
on it. I draw my conclusion from conversations with other United 
States attorneys visiting with tliem at the United States attorneys' 
conference and the problems that thev raise at the conference. Our 
problems are all relatively the same in the Federal jurisdiction. When 
I say all I am speaking of course primarily of jurisdictions such as 
New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and large urban 
areas. I thiiik our problems are rather similar. I realize, of course, 
that in Texas they will probably have more immigration and naturali- 
zation problems than we have here in Chicago. I realize that in San 
Francisco or Los Angeles or New York they will have more immigra- 
tion problems than 1 will. They will have^nore admiralty problems. 
They may have smuggling problems, which of course don't confront 
us here m the Chicago area, except on rare occasions. I don't believe 
that they have any more or any less proportionately income taxes, mail 
frauds, or other violations of Federal statutes. 

Mr. Cahn. In connection with Mr. Robinson's comments on fric- 
tions between the State's attorney's office and the sheriff's office, I 
w^onder to what extent that might be due to the fact that the men are of 
opposite political parties. 

Mr. Keener. I don't know Sheriff Walsh very well. I have known 
John Boyle, of course, since a young man. I would say I have known 
John Boyle for 20 or 23 years. I have always had the highest regard 
for Mr. Boyle, and I know little or nothing about Sheriff Walsh. I 
don't know hoM^ much of this is a political fight, if at all. I don't 
know how much is really based upon inefficiency, alleged inefficiency. 
I don't know. I think if I make any comment it probably might be 
an unfair comment to the sheriff. 

Mr. Halley. Off the record. 

(Off the record.) 

Mr. Cahn. I have just one last question, and I want to thank Mr. 
Ilalley for the opportunity of asking these questions in the first ]^lace 
and thank you for your patience in answering them. You are a World 
AVar II veteran with a very fine record. I was just wondering to what 
extent members of the mob are of the newer generation, possibly World 
War II veterans in some instances, or whether most of the strong- 
arm men or the higher-ups don't perhaps represent the older genera- 
tion, the between-wars men or immigrants, or just to what extent there 
are young people today associated with the mob in high or low capaci- 
ties. That is a general question that covers a lot of people, and the 
mob IS a very general term. I was wondering if you might have some 
comments on that. 

Mr. Kerner. First, I might argue with you about my good war 
record. I just happened to be in for a great many years. My per- 
sonal experiences as United States attorney is that we find very little 
difficulty with young men who have been in the services. The only 
difficulty we have had with them in our office, I think, has been one 
bank embezzlement case and the balance almost completely have been 
fraud cases against the United States Government under the 52-20 



ORGANIZED CROIE. IX INITERSTATE OOIVIMERCE 195 

or the GI bill of rights, obtaining subsistence money and Avilfully 
represented they weren't working. 

As to the balance of your question, of course all these people we 
haA-e been speaking of generally here are men who are in their late 
forties, fifties, and sixties. They were young men during the prohi- 
bition days Avhen the Capone group of course was very acti\'e. I 
don't know the names of any relatively young men who you could 
tie up in any way with these individuals about whom we have been 
speaking. Surely I can go down the list of names and point out where 
they have been in any out of trouble constantly, but I don't think 
there is any tie-up whatsoever between those men and the men about 
whom we are speaking. They are just young toughs, they are hold-up 
men, they are strong-arm men, and I think perhaps on occasion they 
brag they are a part of the Capone mob when as a matter of fact they 
are too inexperienced, shall I say, and get into trouble so often that 
I aan sure if there was a Capone mob they would have no part of 
these individuals, because you take the people about whom we are 
speaking, they live rather nice lives on the surface. Their homes are 
well kept. Thev are quiet. They don't get into trouble. 

In our invest"^ gation before the grand jury we obtained income-tax 
returns of many of these people. We did not look at the income tax 
of any person that we had before our grand jury who did not have 
a very able auditor or certified public accountant to take care ot their 
tax matters. Apparently they have learned the lesson of Al Capone 
and are not going to get caught cheating Uncle Sam. In my own 
mind I believe that perhaps they don't return all their income, but 
I sav to you that I doubt that I can prove that they received any more 
income than that that they returned on their income-tax return. 

Otherwise, these people keep out of the way of the Federal Govern- 
ment, generally speaking. . , ■ . i 

JNIr. Cahn. Mr. Halley has been laying the historic basis for the 
pvocont conditions of crime in the old prohibition days, and I think 
that your answer serves to confirm the fact that the historic basis of 
])resent crime is very important indeed, because we will find figures 
who were small then who have since emerged. Fortunately, not too 
many members, if any, of the younger generation have emerged thus 
far in major positions in crime or for that matter, major positions. 

^Ir Keener. I might say along that line, which may or may not be 
of interest to the committee, that a year ago last month a crime pre- 
vention council was formed here in the city of Chicago. The members 
of that executive committee consist of the mayor, the law-enforcing 
ao-ents in Cook County, and the Governor. It is surprising the eltect 
and the progress it has made in 1 year's time. Of course it is an 
ethereal type of thing. It is metaphysical. You cannot tell now nor 
20 years from now will we be able to tell whether we did any good, it 
any at all. But the purpose of that council is to go before young peo- 
ple's o-roups such as we did last Friday at the Farragut School on the 
Westl5ide, the area in which I was born and raised, and to point out to 
these vonncr people the follv of thinking that because they are strong- 
arm vouiK' kids getting into trouble, will lead them anywhere except to 
a bad lot" That type of committee did not exist when I was a young 
boy, and perhaps it is a step in the right direction, instead of just hav- 
ing juvenile committees to chase boys and who after they get into 
trSuble try to do something. The purpose of this group is to try to 



196 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE ClOMMERCE 

point out the way to these young people before they get into trouble. 
In my experience in going around and watching these meetings, in 
watching the young people, certainly at least for the time they are 
m there they seem to be vitally interested and we do hope that we will 
have some effect on the younger generation, and we hope we won't 
have young people today who will be big mobsters and hoodlums 10, 
15, 20, or 30 years from now. 
Mr. Cahn. Thank you very much, Mr. Halley. 
Mr. Halley. Anything else ? 

Mr. KoBiNsoN. I have one final question, Mr. Kerner. 
Would you care to make any observation to the stature or caliber 
of the occupants of the local court, the local bench ? 

Mr. Kerner. I think for the most part, most of the judges in our 
local courts are good judges. There are some of course that I don't 
think are very good and as a matter of fact I don't believe should be 
sitting on the bench. But as long as you have elected judges and as 
long as you have the swing from party to party, and you may have an 
overwhelming victory, bad men are elected to the bench, yes. But 
taking them as a whole, I would be willing to try a case before any 
of them and I would have no question about their integrity what- 
soever. I practiced in the local courts from 1934 until 1941 when I 
went in the service and when I came back I again practiced before 
them. For the most part I would say their integrity is above question. 
Mr. Halley. Just two matters. Is there full cooperation between 
the various Federal investigative agencies at this time? 
]Mr. Kerner. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Could any further cooperation be implemented, or is 
there real coordination at this stage ? 

Mr. Kerner. There is real coordination. Any time we request any- 
thing we get their full cooperation, I made it one of the precepts of the 
operation of my office that all agency personnel will be treated with 
respect and courtesy as soon as they come in the office. 

Mr. Halley. Is there free exchange of information among the 
various Federal agencies ? 

Mr. Kerner. Yes, if requested. There can't be a free flow of infor- 
mation every day, let me say, because that would probably so choke 
us up that we couldn't take care of our primary dutv. As a matter 
of fact, some time ago I think at the time of the organization of this 
committee, we received a request from the Attorney General for the 
United States attorneys to call in the various investigative agencies for 
a conference. We had a list of names and asked whether they had any 
information, factual or otherwise, in their files. That information was 
turned over to us, which we then turned over to the Department of 
Justice. As a matter of fact, they probably gave us more information 
than could be useful to you. It perhaps becomes a burden. I find 
them always free. The name Felisio came up. There is cooperation 
between the Secret Service and the Narcotics Bureau as to Felisio. We 
had another defendant here who was indicted under three different 
sections of the law. One law was counterfeiting sugar stamps, coun- 
terfeiting money, and what was the third one ? I have forgotten for 
the moment. But they covered three different agencies, and there was 
free interchange of information among them and in our office, also 
in the preparation of the case and in the investigative reports. 
Mr. Halley. Thank you. 
(Discussion off the record.) 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 197 

STATEMENT OF FREDERICK PRETZIE, JR., ADMINISTRATIVE 
ASSISTANT, CHICAGO CRIME COMMISSION 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Pretzie, you are associated Avith the Crime Com- 
mission of Chicago ? 

Mr. Pretzie. The Chicago Crime Commission, as achninistrative 
assistant. 

Mr. Halley. You had charge of the so-called crime commission bills 
on criminal procedure? 

j\Ir. Pretzie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. During what session of the legislature of Illinois was 
that ? 

Mr. Pretzie. That was the last session in 1949. I wasn't too active 
at the session before, in 1947. 

JNIr. Halley. You have a file relating to your detailed observations 
of the 1949 sessions ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you complete this file contemporaneously with the 
events? I have thumbed through the file and I note that you state 
your specific reasons for believing that each specific member of both 
the committee and the legislature voted as he did, is that correct ? 

ISlr. Pretzie. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. I note that you referred to certain offers of bribes to 

you. 

]Mr. Prktzie. No, they weren't made personally to me. The bribes 
were made to members of the legislature. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't there at least a threat to you ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Yes. I was threatened. It came about in this way. 
I didn't consider that very seriously. During one of the recesses of 
the legislature, as I was going up the aisle and Euzzino said, "How 
much is the crime commission paying you to come down here to get 
these bills passed ? " 

I answered that the question was irrelevant, and put the question 
as to why he inquired. 

He said, "I just wonder if we can't pay you more than the crime 
commission is paying you to keep you the hell away from here." 

I said, "Any amount of money you fellows can offer me couldn't 
keep me awav from here." 

Then I had some other encounters ; one with a man who has since 
withdrawn from the legislature. He was renominated and would have 
been elected, but asked that his name be withdrawn, John D'Arco. 
He said to me upon one occasion — and this was all designed to heckle, 
rankle, and discredit me. I have been in the business a long time and 
I am pretty thickskinned. He said, "I understand you are down here 
offering the members of the house $500 to vote for these bills." 

I told him of course that that was ridiculous, that we didn't operate 
that way. 

I said, "That is more than I can say for you when you call your 
cohorts down here. We don't operate that way. You probably do." 

Then on another occasion Mr. D'Arco encountered me as I was about 
to enter the judiciary committee. Most of these fellows who sit in 
the house who are under discussion now are huddled. Their seats 
in the house are segregated more or less in a certain particular area 



198 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

there. Here is Granata and here is Adducci, and Euzzino over here 
Petrone is down oyer liere. D'Arco sits across the aisle, a short dis- 
tance removed. Ihere is one other man wliose name I should recall— 
Kmella— who sits along the same section of seats there 

I had occasion to walk up the aisle during one of the recesses and 
taJked to a certain man there, and some uncomplimentarv thiiio- was 
said to me that I resented, and I replied in kind. We didn't acSiallv 
come to blows at that time. It was a pretty heated discussion. I 
said something to D'Arco that he didn't like, and a day or two later 
as 1 was going into the judiciary committee he took occasion to collar 
me and threatened to punch me in the nose. I told him I didn't think 
that was the place to create a disturbance, that if we were down on the 
street away from the committee hearings I might be able to give him 
a contest but I didn't there, I didn't think that was the proper place 

He said, ' You told me to do somethings" In other words, to put 
It m the record, he said, "Ah, I ought to punch you in the nose." 

I said, "What for ?" 

He said, "You told me to kiss your ." 

I said "You are mistaken. That wasn't the sentence I used I 
told you to go jump in the lake." 

So I said, "Just get your dago temper down. This is no place to 
create a scene." And I pushed him awav and walked away from 
him. 

Mr. Halley. I gather there was a lot of acrimony. 

Mr. Pretzie. I didn't know whether vou were'leading up to that 
or not. '^ 

Mr. Halley. What I was leading up to was just this : In goino- 
tiirough that written statement it appears to be in great detail and I 
wondered whether you could state, in order to save time now, whether 
the written statement is a record you made contemporaneou'slv of all 
the events in detail. 

Mr. Pretzie. That is right, that is right. Incidentally, as you will 
observe by reading that, I dictated it. It was for the chairman of the 
legislative committee, Mr. Thomas Mulroy, as a report to the commit- 
tee, but it IS my report, my language, and I prepared it. 

Mr. Halley. The facts' as stated in the report are true? 

Mr. Pretzie. That is correct ; yes. 

Mr. Hvlley. I think for the committee's record and for present 
purposes the report will be accepted and speak for itself in view of 
your testimony about it. So would vou therefore at this time state 
the conclusions relating to the reasons why the bill was defeated oivino- 
simply 111 conclusion form the blocs against it and their reasoris for 
opposing it. 

Mr. Pretzie. The reasons for opposing it is because they have a 
close affinity I would say over the years, and association, some of these 
members who constitute this West Side bloc, with members of the 
Capone syndicate, many of whom I knew in my early days, havin,^ 
come from that particular area in which they were spawned. The 
syndicate, it is my conclusion, had most to lose and probably would 
be more amenable to these laws than the average individual," obscure 
individual would, a minor offender, because the bills were designed 
primarily of a nuclei of the representatives from the liver wardl^; is 
for the extension of the grand jury and the immunity bill. 



ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199 

Mr H\Li.r.Y. I leather that the bloc opposinoj the bill consisted 
primarily of a nucfei of the representatives from the river wards ; is 
that riaht? 

:^Ir. Pketzu:. That is ri<j;ht. . , -. , 

JNlr. Hallfa'. They obtained the cooperation of a group of down- 
State leoislators of both parties ; is that right ? 

Mr Pretzie That is right, both Eepublicans and Democrats. 
},Ii-.* IIalley. On V. Iiat basis was the trade made to get the support 
of the down-State legislators? ., . . ^. ..-, 

Mr Pretzie. There were several considerations m connection with 
the trade For instance, there is a bloc of Negro legislators down 
there The Negroes were interested in having enacted the fair-em- 
ployment practices bill. So the Italian bloc, you must appreciate, m 
their relationships and in their work, are bipartisan m this respex^t: 
They don't respect anv party lines. I mean for the purpose of the 
record one may be elected on the Democratic ticket and another may 
be elected to the Republican ticket, but for their own selfish purposes 
they combine and confederate and constitute a solid bloc. They will 
make their deals and trades depending on what legislation they are 
primarily interested in having enacted or what legislation they want 
to have defeated. , 

]Mr H ALLEY I have noticed in your report you very carefully and 
in oreat detail take it legislator by legislator and have given the rea- 
soiS why he voted for or against the bill. 

Mr. Pretzie. That is right. . . . , , 

Mv H\LLEY. So supplementing that, summarizing it, the only ques- 
tion I am asking now is, in addition to the people who were willing to 
trade in order to get suj^ix^rt for FEPC, which for one reason or an- 
other they might have considered of more immediate importance, what 
other support^'was marshaled and what trades were made to get it? 

Mr. Pretzie. They made trades on the constitutional convention 
bill tliat the administration, the Governor was very much interested in. 
They held the balance of power in the house, this Italian bloc. 
Mv Halley. The Governor didn't trade with him, did he? 
I^Ir. Pretzie. No. He refused. They didn't approach him directly, 
but indirectly he was approached in an attempt to make a deal with 
him if he would sell himself out on the support of the crime commis- 
sion bills they would sup])ort the constitutional convention resolution. 
The Governor refused to become party to any such deal or overture. 

Mr. Halley. Did members of the legislature make such a deal, 
thou^^h, without the Governor's agreement? In other words, what I 
am trying to find out is, how did they marshal enough votes to lick 

this thing? . r. ^ i ^^^ 

Mr. Pretzie. You must appreciate this. Some of these men, like 
Pete Granata, who has been down in the legislature for many years, 
and Adduci, who has been down there several years, and Euzzmo who 
has been down there several terms, have developed through the knack 
of ingratiating themselves through the lavish expenditure of money 
.and entertainment and favors that they are in a position to extend to 
their colleagues in the legislature; and in connection with the trading 
on certain bills with members of the legislature there are devious and 
many ways in vdiich thev can gain support either for or against a 
bill. " It has been said, and I think it is probably true, I would say, that 
they control approximately 25 votes in that house. 



200 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

]\Ir. Halley. Cun't you <;ive any more concrete statement of the 
deals that were made to get the vote? It is detailed in the record 
and if yon prefer to stand on your statement that is all right. 

Mr. Pketzie. I am trying to refresh m^^ recollection now as I am 
speaking. In many instances they ha\e api)roache(l membei-s of the 
judiciary committee because it was quite apparent for the time that 
there was a possibility we would be able to get these bills out of the 
judiciary committee. One member of that committee who is now 
dead, who was formerly chairman of the committee— and there is 
another member of that committee who was the dean of the law 
school here— told me that they know of members of the committee 
who were actually threatened right in the judiciary committee by 
these fellows, 

I have gotten from other sources that I can't identify that they 
had made oifers of money, and in cases— I know of one instance where 
a threat was made, although this man was not a member of the judi- 
ciary committee but was a member of the house. He had already 
committed himself to support the crime commission bills, and when 
he refused to yield— and I witnesses this myself in the lobby of the 
hotel there. First they were in the cocktail lounge. The chairs were 
pushed back and they almost came to blows. I was sitting at an- 
other place in there M'ith some men. The words were loud and harsh 
and the first thing I knew one of these men chased Adduci out in the 
corridor and wanted to battle with him. The reason for that, I 
learned from talking to this member of the legislature, was that they 
threatened not only violence but that if he wouldn't change his mind 
and vote against the crime commission bills, they were going to 
defeat him up in his district ; if necessary they were going to spend 
$25,000, and they did. He was candidate for reelection luid when 
It came time for filing this last primary, petitions had to be filed with 
the secretary of state, members of this bloc— I think Adduci was one 
and there was a man who was spokesman for this grou]), Joe Porcaro 
who IS a powerful west side politician. Republican incidentally, went 
to the secretary of state's office and tried to get first billing" for an 
op]3onent of this man. Fortunately he was there and he had a friend 
111 the secretary's office and he got his rightful position on the ballot, 
which was position No. 1. 

There are other things which occurred in that particular district 
which confirmed what this member had told me. 

Mr. Halley. Perhaps we can helj) clarify the reasons by takino- 
oiie vote that apparently occurred in the committee. You liad eio-lS 
Democrats and seven Republicans voting in Avhat you characterize 
as an attemjit to kill one of the bills. You say two were Cook Gountv 
Democrats, Euzzino and Cronin. 
Mr. Pretzie. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Why would Cronin vote wirh Euzzino? 
Mr. Pretzie. Cronin felt in that case, with due res])ect to Mr. 
Cronin, who afterward changed his vote — I am not sayino- this be- 
cause he did— he felt at first that there was probably no^need for 
Cronin had been assocnited here— incidentally he is" a member of 
the license liquor appeal connnission. -He has been associated here 
with a law firm, not recently but in years past and iDracticed almost 
exclusively m the criminal courts, both State and Federal, and some 
member of that firm had represpnted the Ca])onos iu some nf tlipir 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 201 

conflicts with the law. He probably felt conscientiously — I am giv- 
ing him the benefit of the doubt — but there was no need for extension 
of the grand jur3^ 

Mr. Halley. Then yon have six down-State Democrats: Taylor 
Boseman, Jeti'erson, Carver, and Shapiro. What would induce those 
people to vote against the bills the Democrats introduced there ^ 

Mr. Pretzie. Shapiro afterwards changed and supported the bill. 
Carver didn't. Taylor didn't. As a matter of fact, I could never 
understand Taylor. He was cosponsor on two of the bills. He didn't 
happen to be of this particular bill. 

Mr. Halj^ey. This is the grand jury bill ; is that right? 

Mr. Pretzie. That is right. Taylor is well reputed down in the 
southern part of the State. He is an able lawyer. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. In all fairness could it be that perhaps a substantial 
number of the people voting against the bills did it either quite sin- 
cerely or for reasons that you just know nothing about ? 

Mr. Pretzie. True. I would say that. 

Mr. Halley. Is it your point, then, that the balance of power lay 
in their bloc from the river wards and the people they were able to 
nuike deals -with ? 

Mr. Pretzie. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. It wouldn't be jour point that they corrupted the en- 
tire legislature? 

Mr. Pretzie. Oh, none whatsoever. Xo; I wouldn't make that 
statement. 

Mr. Halley. Are there any other general conclusions you would 
like to state for the record in addition to what is in your report, bear- 
ing in mind that the report will be made a part of the committee's 
record ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Xo ; I think not, unless you want to go into the rea- 
sons as to why the Italian bloc — I mean if you want me to chart their 
early careers and associations with these men. On some of those 
bills there possibly could have been some logical objections, but on 
the two bills, with all the support that we received from the Governor, 
the mayor, and the press and everything else, I can't conceive how 
there could possibly be any logical argument or objection to those two 
bills. 

Mr. Halley. Despite the lateness of the hour I personally would 
like to hear about the Italian bloc. 

Mr. Robinson. That may be in some of the records. 

Mr. Halley. Go right ahead. 

Mr. Pretzie. In the Senate many of these men I have known for 
many 3'cars 

]N[r. Halley. Would you name them first, the men you are referring 
to? 

Mr. Pretzie. Senator Roland Libonate. who is a Democrat elected 
from the seventeenth senatorial district which embraces the first ward. 
He is a protege of Pete Fosco's. Roland Libonate in the last session 
of the legislature was considered the Democratic whip. He spear- 
headed the opposition to the crime commission bills. Three of these 
bills passed the senate. Roland Libonate as you know — maybe you 
don't know, and I had better tell you — formerly was elected as the 
repi'esentative from that same district and was a member of one of 

68958 — 51 --pt. 5 14 



202 , ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

tlie most notorious ward oi-oanizations, tlien the twentieth ward, in 
which JNIaury Eller was the committeeman. 

Mr. KoKiNSON. What is that ward called? 

Mr. Pketzie. It was called the "Bloody Twentieth.'' Some years 
prior to that time — it has been redistricted over the years — it was 
known as the "Bloody Twentieth." That ward gave us most of these 
men that you referred to as members of the mob, except those who came 
on here from the East and other points. That ward gave us men like 
Antliony Volj)e, Mops Volpe, gave you Tony Accardo, gave you Jack 
McGurn. It gives you this fellow Mooney Giancana. I would say 
he is the j^oungest member of the mob. On the question propounded 
to Otto Kerner, I was inclined to agree with him, but Mooney Gian- 
cana is coming up and he is probably the youngest member of that 
mob. He is the chauffeur and body guard for Tony Accardo. Frank 
Rio, the late Frank Rio — he, incidentally, died a natural death — was 
(me of the principal body guards of Al Capone at the time, with his 
cousin Charlie Fichetti, Tony Accardo and some of these other fel- 
lows who are now prominent, who are the big shots now in the mob 
or syndicate. Some other notorious characters, such as Druggari and 
Lake who are no longer active in mob circles, came out of that district. 
I don't have all the names before me, I can probably identify some 
others. 

Libonate was a pretty close pal and associate of Al Capone. It is 
a matter of public record that he fraternized with him and they were 
seen together in public places. Libonate, I think, has never denied 
the fact that he and Capone were bosom pals. 

You had the spectacle of Jimmie Adduci, who before he was elected 
to the legislature, coming from that same area just a short distance 
away on the West Side, was an associate of Willie BiotT, Dago Law- 
]'ence Mangano, who didn't meet a natural death but was machine- 
gunned together with his bodyguard not too many years ago. Dago 
Lawrence Mangano was considered the man in charge of vice for the 
mob. In more recent years he went into the gambling business and had 
a big gambling establishment up on the near North Side, around the 
Bistro side, near Rush Street and Chicago Avenue. 

Mr. Halley. Is he operating today? 

Mr. Pretzie. No; he is dead and I don't think that spot is operat- 
ing any more. But his activities are being carried on by members of 
the mob. This man Mops Volpe, who doesn't figure so prominently 
in the picture today, was one of the mob's principal lieutenants. He 
was the overseer of the Cicero gambling operations not too many years 
back and also the principal lieutenant in the conduct of dog tracks 
when they had control of the Hawthorne Kennel Club and also the 
Laramie Kennel Club. 

I didn't come prepared for this. This is what occurs to me now. 
I haven't given it too much thought. 

Mr. Halley. That is all right. You go ahead. You can supple- 
ment it and we hope you will. 

Mr. Pretzie. You asked the question of Mr. Kerner, and you are 
right, you have seen evidence down in Florida. The thing I can't 
miderstand is why so many men in high places in public life refuse to 
recognize that there is such a thing as a syndicate and a mob, that it 
lives and that it breathes, and that it is here and is doing business here. 



ORGAmZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 203 

Unfortunately, the only time tliese men have been brought to justice 
and paid the penalty is because Uncle Sam, through the medium ot the 
income-tax law, was able to punish them where our local authorities 
had always been ineffectiye. -n j; 

It seems to me that over the years with the proper surveillance ot 
any law-enforcement agency, with men of intelligence anc probably 
not too much intelligence, they certainly could have established or 
developed enough evidence to have made a case to bring these men to 
the bar of justice in our State courts or in our criminal courts. 

We as the crime commission, not too long ago when the county was 
wide open, were able to find luxurious gambling emporiums of the type 
they have down in Florida and the type that they operate in Las Vegas. 
There were large gaming rooms with seven or eight roulette wheels, 
half a dozen crap tables. ^ , c 

^Ir. PIalley. Up to how long ago and where i ^^ ^ ^ 

Mr Pretzie Of course, we were responsible because we put the local 
authorities on the spot. They couldn't help themselves. This one 
address that Uv. Kerner referred to down there at Cicero and Austin 
Avenue was Willie Heeney's and Corngold's. That was 591-i West 
Cermak Road. 1 shouldn't be surprised but that they are still oper- 
ating^ I haven't been up there. I haven't done anything on gambling 
in recent years. Mr. Devereux has handled all that. They operated 
a bio- spot and another place at 5937 Roosevelt Road, which was also 
in dcero, that we know Corngold operated. We had those two places 
after the local authorities either were unable or unwilling to take any 
effective action. We had arranged to give the sheriff— it isn t this 
present sheriff— an opportunity after apprising him ot the fact that 
these places were in operation and going wide open with no pretense 
of secrecy. The sheriff's lieutenant visited these two places and came 
back with the report that they found a couple of scratch sheets and 
made a vaid and booked a couple of men, the keepers of the handbook. 
\s a matter of fact, it was a false and fraudulent report. We then 
proceeded to enlist the aid of the State's attorney's police through the 
State's attorney, who was then Courtney ; it wasn't Mr. Boyle. I was 
on one raid and I directed the other raid, too. We knocked over both 
of these places and confiscated considerable equipment, which ran into 
roulette wheels which were then valued at about $1,200, and several 
roulette wheels in both places and other gambling paraphernalia^ 

Shortly after that there was a place that we know that Rocco 
Fischetti managed, whom we had identified through credible evi- 
dence, witnesses, Rocco Fischetti was identified as the manager of The 
Dome, which was out here on West Irving Park Road. We got the 
same report from the sheriff in connection with that place, and we 
went out there, and there must have been 350 people m the place, 
elaborately furnished. We took seven or eight roulette wheels and 
another batch of gambling paraphernalia out of there. 
Mr. Halley. How recent was all of this? 

Mr Prftzie. This was 1943 and 19-14. What I am leading up to is 
this • It i« a result of that activity, to their amazement they couldn t 
understand it. They felt secure in their belief. They had been going 
along unmolested. "The men that we had stationed m the places at 
the t'lme the raids were made had gotten comments from the various 
l)atrons who said "This looks like the real McCoy. This has never 
happened. There is something haywire here.'' 



204 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Because in times prior to that they were tipped off, the sheriff's 
police are coming out or the State's attorney's police are coming out. 
Give us two guys to make a pinch. Excuse the jargon. Maybe I 
am getting a little off. 

Mr. Halley. You are a little off track. We were talking about the 
river ward bloc. You covered Libonate. You were going to tell us 
who the rest of them were and their background. 

Mr. Pretzit:. I think I gave you enough to show the connections of 
Libonate. 

Mr. Halley. I think so. 

Mr. Pretzie. I think I gave you enough as far as Adducci was 
concerned to show you the connections there. Incidentally, Libonate's 
practice is practically all criminal. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a lawyer? 

Mr. Pretzie. Yes, he is a lawyer. 

Mr. Robinson. Does he have a record, criminal record? 

Mr. Pretzie. No, he doesn't have any criminal record. I think 
he was arrested, as I recall, on the eve of election some 25 years ago 
over on Halstead Street. I don't know whether the police booked him. 
I doubt whether they booked him or not, but at that time there were 
several characters who were members of the same organization. 

Mr. Halley. What is Adducci 's politics? 

Mr. Pretzie. He is a Republican. 

Mr. Halley. What ward is he from? 

Mr. Pretzie. He is from the twenty-seventh ward. He actually 
runs that ward. While he is not the committeeman, he is the power- 
house there. • 

Mr. Halley. Who is the committeeman ? 

Mr. Pretzie. I am not too sure. I think it is a fellow by the 
name of Snyder. I can get it for you. 

Mr. Halley. Who are some of the others in this river ward bloc? 

Mr. Pretzie. Granata. Incidentally, Granata has a brother who 
is an accountant. I can't recall his first name now. I think he has 
done some work for some of these fellows. 

Mr. Halley. What are Granata's politics ? 

Mr. Pretzie. He is a Republican. 

Mr. Halley. What ward is he from ? 

Mr. Pretzie. He is from what would now be the first ward. It 
was formerly the twentieth ward. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any of the others in mind ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Yes. Euzzino is a Democrat from the first ward. 

Mr. Robinson. Porcaro? 

Mr. Pretzie. Porcaro is committeeman from the twenty-sixth or 
the twenty-eighth ward, I think possibly the twenty-sixth ward. 
Porcaro is not a member of the legislature, but he was considered 
the spokesman for this group. While he had no right to be upon 
the floor, which will be reflected in the report, he was very active in 
the sessions, while the house was in session, collaring the members. 
As a matter of fact, the Daily News exposed his activities and he 
was then holding a position in the county treasurer's office. 

Mr. Halley. Who are the other members of this river ward bloc ? 

Mr. Pretzie. James Rinella. He represents the first district. He 
would also, since the redistricting, I think be part of the first ward 
now. 



O'RGAJSTIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Did you cover Petrone? 

Mr. Pretzie. No, I didivt. - 

Mr. Halley. What is Rinella's politics ? 

Mr. Pretzie. I think he is a Republican. I can give it to you. I 
think he is a Republican, but I can check that. 

Mr. Halley. Let's take Rinella, for instance. What are his con- 
nections with the syndicate? Why did you consider that he votes 
in a bloc ? 

Mr. Pretzie. I will say because of his friendship. I don't say 
that Pete Granata is definitely tied in with it. I know of no in- 
stances where he was associated or fraternized personally with these 
fellows, but because of the general atmosphere and the conditions 
that prevailed over in that area for many, many years, he was re- 
puted, and we have never been able to establish this, he was reputed 
to be interested in the handbook not too many years ago over there, 
but we weren't able to establish it. 

Mr, Halley. This is Granata ? 

Mr. Pretzie. G-r-a-n-a-t-a. 

Mr. Halley. A^Hiat about Rinella ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Rinella, so far as we know, has no criminal record. 

Mr. Halley. Does he associate with mobsters ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Yes, they are always associated together. 

Mr. Halley. Who does he associate with, what individuals, do you 
remember ? 

Mr. Pretzie. I am speaking of his association — you mean the mem- 
bers of the bloc, not the mob now. 

Mr. Halley. How do you tie this bloc in with the mob? That is 
what I don't understand. I thought that is what we were talking 
about. 

Mr. Pretzie. I have given you enough instances here already. 

Mr. Halley. We know how they vote, but what do you know about 
their associates? Do they visit at Fischetti's house? Do they eat 
dinner with Accardo ? 

Mr. Pretzie. I don't know that of my own knowledge ; no. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any information about any of these so- 
called river-ward blocs ? 

Mr. Pretzie. No; I can't honestly say that I do. In recent years; 
no, I can't. 

Mr. Halley. How do we tie them in? You say that historically 
they have always voted in a way that resulted in a criminaPs benefiting ; 
is that right ? 

]Mr. Pretzie. Yes ; that is correct. 

Mr. Halley. Aside from that which of them can we say fraternized 
and associated with known hoodlums ( 

Mr. Pretzie. If you ask me today I can only judge by this past 
record. I can't say of my own knowledge toda3^ 

Mr. Halley. Which of them did in the past associate? How did 
they come up in the world ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Adducci, there isn't any secret about that. Adduce! 
definitely was tied in with them. 

Mr. Halley. How was he tied in. 

Mr. Pretzie. Well, he was arresteU with some of these characters in 
a gambling house, and he was arrested in connection with a vice in- 
vestigation and if you check his arrest record, you will find that his 



206 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN IN'TERSTATE COMMERCE 

association goes back with these men over a period of years, maybe 20> 
yeai'S. 

Mr. Halley. So Adducci you can definitely say whether or not he 
was convicted. 

Mr, Pretzie. I don't think yon will find any conviction on him 
either. 

Mr. Halley. But at least he was found associating with the mobsters 
in places that operated illegally 'i 

Mr. Pretzie. That is right. 

Mr. Hali^y. Can you say that about an}^ of the others ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Libonate was seen with Al Capone. 

Mr. Robinson. Isn't it true that Libonate has had his picture taken 
with Al Capone ? 

JNIr. Pretzie. He has had his picture taken. It is a matter of 
public record. That is right. It is a matter of public record, too, 
that Libonate was in the headquarters of this place on election night 
wdien several of the members of the mob were there. I don't recall 
their names now. I can refresh my recollection. But they were im- 
portant. They were not too important. I think Murray Humphreys 
may have been one of them in that particular raid. There were sev- 
eral members of the mob. In connection with Petrone, that I spoke 
of who was part of this Italian bloc, interceded for these men and 
tried to get them released from the custody of the police. 

Mr. Robinson. Does Libonate have a brother? 

Mr. Pretzie. Yes; he has a brother, Eleodore, who is very active 
in veterans' affairs. They are two different types of individuals en- 
tirely. One fellow has never had any association or affiliation or any 
business dealings or represented any of these fellows. Of course, 
Libonate has represented a lot of them. 

Mr. Halley, Would you say about Euzzino ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Euzznino in connection with Tony Accardo's draft 
status, I guess he was questioned, I don't know. Mr. Kerner m^iy have 
overlooked that. He was questioned with reference to an affidavit 
he acknowledged for Tony Accardo having to do with his draft 
deferment, 

Mr, Robinson. You say Libonate's brother has no connection. 
There is no connection between the brothers ? 

Mr. Pretzie. No; except that they are brothers; They are not 
engaged in the law business together. They never did practice to- 
gether. They travel in different circles, and they don't represent 
the same type of clients. 

Mr. Robinson. What does the brother do? 

Mr. Pretzie. He is a lawyer, Eleodore, 

Mr, Robinson. Is the brother employed in Washington? 

Mr. Pretzie. You mean Libonate? I think there may be another 
brother, but Eleodore is considered a pretty high-grade decent fellow. 

Mr. Halley. What could you say about Porcaro ? 

Mr. Pretzie. Porcaro always has been tied in. He has been a fixer 
and front man for the hoodlum element. He has been tied in politics. 
He got canned out of the State's attorney's office. I don't know how 
he got in there at the time. I think Swanson was the State's at- 
torney. I think he was responsible for those records. Our files, 
I think, will show some other situations that don't speak very well of 
Mr, Porcaro, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 207 

Mr. Hallet. Are there other members of this river ward bloc that 

you haven't mentioned ^ . t ^.i • i 

Mr Pketzie. This man D'Arco is out of the picture now. I think 
we have established that at one time he was charged with robbery, al- 
though he was acquitted. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have anything else? 

Mr. Pretzie. If I could refresh my recollection on some of these 
thino^. I can go back. My assignment in recent years has been a little 
different, but 1 could probably search my memory independent of any 
records and maybe come up with something. 

Mr. Robinson. Is this your own personal record ^ 

Mr. Pretzie. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You have no duplicate of it ? ... 

Mr. Pretzie. This is my personal record. There is an original of 
that in the file. You are welcome to have that. 

Mr. Caiin. I have a few brief questions. I will keep you just a 
moment longer, if I may, Mr. Pretzie. I know you gentlemen have 
been working hard and 'long into the night and have a full schedule 
ahead, as I am sure you do. 

For the sake of the record, Mr. Pretzie, since reference has been 
made to an "Italian bloc," I am sure you would agree, as I am sure 
the committee would, that these particular gentlemen, at least insofar 
as their stand on these bills recommended by the crime commission and 
by the bar association and so on, do not represent undoubtedly the posi- 
tion of the Italian-American community of Chicago. 

Mr. Pretzie. Not at all. I am Italian, incidentally. I may not 
look it, out I am of Italian descent myself. 

Mr. Caiin. I think that might be mentioned for the record m all 
fairness to the patriotic Americans of Italian descent. 

Mr. Pretzie. That is right. 

Mr. Cahn. In the same way that we would do similarly for any 
other group of whose members might inadvertently tarnish the name 
of the over-all group. 

I^Ir. Pretzie. As a matter of fact, I think these men are probably 
a disgrace and maybe they would be disowned by the decent Italian- 
Americans. Unfortunately they come from the type of wards where 
you have a constituency that can*t be too independent and don't exer- 
cise their franchise as freely as they do in other wards. In other 
words, despite what newspapers and despite all propaganda, you can t 
beat those fellows over in those wards. , , ■ j- 

Mr. Cahn. I just wanted to bring that out because the chairman of 
the committee aiid the chief counsel have been very, very fair m their 

questioning. n ^i i 

Mi: Pretzie. Some newspaper has used that phrase and they Have 
carried it through, the "river blcc." It is referred to as the West Side 
Italian bloc. It has stayed with them ever since. 

Mr. Caiin. Of course you implied, as the committee implies, no in- 
dication as to the patriotic and honest quality of the Italian-American 
community of this area. 

Mr. Pretzie. That is right. 

Mr. Caiin. Just one other question then. Can you predict successor 
for these more limited suggestions that the crime commission is going 
to send up ? I think you said there are going to be two or three bills. 

Mr. Pretzie. Two. 



208 ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Caiin". Have any conditions changed wliereby you would think 
you might have improved chances in the forthcoming legislature as 
against your previous results? 

Mr. Pretzie. Yes. I feel that there is a better chance of passing 
these two bills. We have introduced two instead of five, the two that 
we think are of primary importance: the grand jury and innnunity 
bills. I think it has been demonstrated by the vote of the electorate 
in certain legislative districts. In other words, one member of the 
house who undoubtedly was subjected and I am sure was subjected 
to a lot of pressure on the part of the Italian bloc and voted with 
them contrary to — incidentally this man that I had reference to 
was a member of the house. He was mayor of Forest Park, a com- 
munity in which there was considerable gambling, and in which there 
were bad situations. It came to me, but I can't prove it. He was 
just coerced. He got the support of this group in his reelection, and 
the people in that particular area, it is not in the west side area, but 
it takes in the entire county in which we have some very fine suburbs, 
including bad towns like Cicero and Melrose Park, in which some of 
these members of the mob live. He was opposed by a man who for- 
merly sat in the legislature and made a good record, and he was 
beaten solely, as we are able to determine, because of his alliance with 
these men and his vote against the crime-commission bills. In certain 
areas it has been reflected. We know that other members of the leg- 
islature who voted for the crime-commission bills, there was a con- 
certed attempt made to defeat them. There was some trading and 
money, and gambling interests in certain areas have attempted to 
defeat these men. That situation is true in, I would say, several 
■districts. 

Mr. Cahn. Thank you, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you very much, Mr. Pretzie, for this very 
valuable background information. 

Mr. Pretzie. I will be glad to come back any time. 

(Whereupon, at 8 p. m., the committee recessed until 9 a, m. the 
iollowing day.) 



INYESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CEIME IN INTEESTATE 

COMMEECE 



FRIDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1950 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Chicago^ III. 

EXECUTIVE session 

The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 9 a. m., in room 267, United 
States courthouse (Old Post Office Building), Chicago, 111., Senator 
Estes Kefauver (chairman) presiding. 

Present : Senator Kefauver. 

Also present : Eudolph Halley, chief counsel ; George S. Kobinson^ 
associate counsel; George H. Wliite, Patrick M. Kiley, William C. 
Garrett, and W. D. Amis, investigators ; and Julius Cahn, administra- 
tive assistant to Senator Wiley. Otto Kerner, Jr., United States at- 
torney. Northern District of Illinois ; Elmer Oltman, Intelligence Unit, 
Bureau of Internal Revenue, Kansas City Division; and N. F. Oi*t- 
werth, Internal Revenue agent, St. Louis Division. August S. Brown, 
special agent. Treasury intelligence, Chicago, 111. Daniel P. Sullivan, 
operating director, Crime Commission of Greater Miami ; and Walter 
J. Devereux, chief investigator, Chicago Crime Commission, and con- 
sultant to the committee. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Governor Stevenson, will you hold up your hand. Do you solemnly 
swear the testimony you will give this committee will be the whole 
truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Governor Stevenson. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. ADLAI E. STEVENSON, GOVERNOE, STATE OF 
ILLINOIS; ACCOMPANIED BY WILLIAM M. BLAIR, JR., ADMIN- 
ISTRATIVE ASSISTANT, AND WILLIAM FLANAGAN, HEAD, DIVI- 
SION OF REPORTS 

The Chairman. I want the record to show that the committee is 
delighted and honored to have with us the distinguished Governor of 
the State of Illinois, Gov. Adlai E. Stevenson, who has shown great 
energy and foresight in trying to get at and handle the problems of 
crime, organized, and otherwise, in the State of Illinois. The com- 
mittee has had an opportunity of examining and keeping in touch 
with Governor Stevenson's work, and I can say without any equivo- 
cation that he has shown the type of attitude and action toward getting. 

209 



210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

at unlawful activities in the State of Illinois that should be very, very 
encouraging to tlie good citizens of this State. In addition, the chair- 
man had the opportunity of being with Governor Stevenson at the 
criminal division of the American'Bar Association, where the Gover- 
nor made an excellent speech which appeared in the Congressional 
Record, which adds much dignity to your remarks. Governor. 

We took the Governor somewhat by surprise. We invited the mayor 
of Chicago and others to appear, and w^e were asked if we were going 
to invite the Governor, and we said we would be delighted to have the 
Governor come, and did invite him. 

Governor Stevenson, would you tell us anything you think will 
help the committee, both as to legislative masters and information 
that you may have ? 

Governor Stevenson. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your kind I'e- 
marks about what we have been doing in Illinois. I can briefly sum- 
marize my experience with commercialized gambling, which is the 
only direct experience I have had with organized crime in Illinois 
since I have been Governor, somewhat as follows : 

I took office in Januaiy 1949. At that time it was apparent from 
general public information tliat the use of gambling devices such as 
slot machines, roulette, craps, and things of that kind were com- 
monplace in Illinois. There were also some large and notorious 
handbooks operating. The distribution of the slot machine was very 
extensive. By that, I don't mean to say that they operated only in 
all of the counties, but in a good many. 

Early in 1949 the situation in certain counties came forcibly to 
our attention in Springfield due to delegations, usually from min- 
isterial associations, who waited upon us or from com]>laints received 
through the mails. After prolonged discussion of this matter and 
what to do about it, we concluded — that is, the attorney general and I 
concluded— that we should institute a rather consecutive and con- 
tinuous series of interviews with local law^-enforcement officials — 
I mean State's attorneys, sheriffs, and mayors — in communities where 
gambling existed. 

That process went on for quite some time. It still goes on. We 
found it yielded some results, that in a good many counties, I would 
say that demonstrably in 8 or 10, gambling which theretofore had 
been prevalent was discontinued by local action following one or more 
conferences in Springfield with local law-enforcement officials. We 
were at great pains to make these conferences highly confidential so 
that the local law-enforcement official would get the credit for having 
discontinued gambling in his locality, which of course was the major 
inducement for him to cooperate. 

In many other counties, however, we found that gambling either 
stopped temporarily and then was resumed after vaiying intervals 
of anyw4iere fi*om 2 weeks to 2 months, or that in some places it never 
stopped at all and that our importunities were unavailing. 

During this interval I was in the process of reorganizing the Illinois 
State police, which had theretofore been sponsored wholly politically, 
and with thanks to the cooperation of the Illinois General Assembly 
we got a bill enacted in June of 1949 that enabled us to put the Illinois 
State police on a strictly merit basis. During the period of transition 
from a political police force to a strictly professional police force 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211 

there were a great many discharges and replacements. The result is 
that our police force was somewhat demoralized and was also very 
undermanned. I didn't feel that during that interval it would be 
proper or even wise to use the state police to supplement our moral 
pressures on local law-enforcement officials to comply with the law. 

However, by the winter of 1950 the police force had been virtually 
reorganized, the work had been substantially completed, replacements 
had been made. We recruited new men and had an opportunity to 
give them 6 weeks of professional training in' our police schools, and 
they had also had some opportunity to serve actually on the roads and 
in the districts throughout the State. 

So Ave concluded in the winter of this year that we were now m a 
position to use the State police in those counties where the resistance 
had been stubborn and where there had been no cooperation, where 
law enforcement had broken down, if you please, and where the local 
officials showed no disposition to do their duty. That we commenced 
in May of 1950, first in Madison County on these two large notorious 
handbooks, the Hyde Park and the 200 Club. Since then we have 
been raiding continuously on the basis of preliminary investigations 
in counties to determine the existence and the whereabouts of gam- 
bling devices, with the result that I have some tabulations here. 
Whether they are of any interest to the committee or not I don't know. 

The Chairman. We would like very much to have them made a 
part of the record, Governor, and you refer to any parts of it that you 
wish. 

Governor Stevenson. I will present this for the record, it merely 
sets forth in detail what we have done through the use of the police. 
This does not reflect what has been done in the way of direct nego- 
tiation. . . 

The Chairman. May I ask if it is a confidential matter or is it 

public? 

Governor STEVENSO^f. We will make it public. There is no reason 
why it shouldn't be. It shows that we have raided 73 towns, 308 
establishments, that we have seized and either destroyed or there are 
currently pending applications for orders to destroy 700 gambling 
devices, and 84 miscellaneous gambling devices. The total number 
of police involved in these raids is 510. The total funds, money found 
in them or seized in one way or another is $73,000. 

(The documents referred to are identified as exhibit No. 26, and are 
on file with the committee.) 

Governor Stevenson. The result of all this, Mr. Chairman, is th'at 
we think— I use the word "think" advisedly because I have no com- 
parative statistics— that commercialized gambling in Illinois is at the 
lowest ebb in many years. The collector of internal revenue for the 
southern district of Illinois, which includes 73 counties, reports that 
applications for Federal tax stamps for gambling devices has de- 
clined more than 40 percent in 1 year, that is, August 1949 to August 
1950. These machines, however, persist. Although, as I say, they 
are rapidly disappearing in commercial establishments, they still per- 
sist in clubs, service club posts, country clubs, private establishments 
very generally. There has been a marked decline in those, but by no 
means comparable to the decline in commercial establishments, tav- 
erns, gambling joints. 



212 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN "INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I don't have at hand the figures witli respect to applications for 
Federal tax stamps in the northern collection district of Illinois, but 
there I think the percentage is that the decline was roughly the same, 
40 or 50 percent less in 1 year. 

We think, in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, that these conferences 
which as I say persist to this day' with local law-enforcement officials, 
sometimes proffering them the assistance of local investigators to 
help them to determine facts in their counties, and the use of this 
instrumentality of the 'State police, has been exceedingly effective, 
but I am talking wholly about commercialized gambling, no other 
form of crime, and I am limiting what I have to say to the interval 
in which we can demonstrably show what has been accomplished, 
commencing in May 1950. As I say, before that period I think we 
knocked out 8 or 10 counties which were bad ones, largely by the co- 
operation of the local officials. This is expensive. It diverts a great 
many men from other duties. We have in Illinois a State police au- 
thorized by law of 500 people to patrol all the roads of the State, 400 
miles long, from Cairo to Wisconsin. If you deduct administrative 
personnel, radio operators, and so on, of 50, that gives 3^ou 450 men. 
On an 8-hour-shift basis, that means that you haven't more than 
about 17 working at any one time to patrol all the highways of the 
largest primary highw^ays system in the United States, or 12,000 miles. 
You can see that the diversion of this manpower from their statutory 
duties to supplement local police enforcement is at the expense of a 
proper highway patrol. 

If I may say one more word. I am perfectly frank to say, as I have 
publicly on several occasions, I don't like to see the State intervene in 
matters of local law enforcement. I think it represents a breakdown, 
not so much a crackdown as a breakdown of local law enforcement, 
that it is wrong, that it is wrong in theory, and it is expensive and 
inefficient in practice, but I see nothing ^Ise to do in circumstances such 
as we have encountered, wdiere there has been a, prolonged breakdown 
of local law enforcement. In that case I think people will dema,nd 
and they will get the service of higher levels of government. 

The CiiAiRMAisr. To what would you assign the reason for the break- 
down of local law enforcement in the counties or communities where 
you found that to exist ? 

Governor Stevenson. One, the corruption of local law enforcement 
officials, who profit from protection. Two, campaign contributions, 
which is another form of corruption, I presume. Three, public indif- 
ference, which I believe speaks for itself, the fact that the localities 
themselves don't insist upon adequate performance of duty by local 
officials. I think those in all their ramifications probably constitute 
the principal explanation for it. 

I must say that there are cases where local law enforcement officials 
give evidence of sincerity and of confidence, but they are so inade- 
quately staffed. States' attorneys who have no investigators in these 
small towns, that I am somewhat sympathetic with the position that 
they find themselves in. 

The Chairman. Then in the final analysis your point 3 is really 
the basic reason for most of the difficulty ; that is, public indifference, 
or the lack of an aroused public. 

Governor Stevenson. I think it is a very major contributing factor. 
You will usually find in these communities where they have a long, 



ORGAOTZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 213 

persistent record of noneiiforcemeiit, that there is some public indica- 
tion about it and some public concern about it, but it frequently repre- 
sents the minority attitude. I don't want to be misunderstood there. 
I think once the people fully appreciate what is going on m their 
town, thev get aroused. For the most part, they are not fully appre- 
ciative of what is going on in their counties. I can illustrate by 
the case of Lake County, adjoining Chicago to the north, the county 
in which I live. The eastern portion of that county along the shore 
of Lake Michigan is inhabited by people who for the most part work 
in Chicago and commute back and forth to Chicago. They have 
little knowledge, awareness, or concern, apparently, as to conditions 
that persist in the county to the west of them. It is that sort of 
thing that I refer to. I don't say it in criticism. I say it more 
in a^ense of frustration and disappointment of people who do not 
have a proper interest in local government. 

The Chairman. What part of gambling have your State enforce- 
ment officers found to be syndicated or so-called big-time organized 

activity? t • i t 

Governor Stevenson. I wish I could answer that simply. 1 am 
afraid I can't. Senator, for this reason: We are not equipped to 
make elaborate investigations of personnel, individuals, connections, 
and that sort of thing\ About all we can do is to go in and seize 
the equipment and appear before the court and ask for an order of 
destruction. Therefore, I don't think we can say with any cer- 
tainty that we know too much about connection, syndicates, and so 
on. I can- say, however, that I think we have some evidence, at least 
by hearsay, of the existence of some— and don't hold me to this 
figure— some 35 syndicates of various cities, whether it is, say, a local 
dtstributor of slot machines or whether it is the local agency of a 
much larger distributor. That material I don't have here, but I 
would be^very glad to have the director of public safety or the 
attorney general's office or someone appear again at your convenience 
and o-ive you whatever we have or even preferably I would be delighted 
to have a' representative of the committee come to Springfield and go 
through our public safety department files. 

The Chairman. That is very generous, but we would appreciate it 
if you would have someone send us such information as you have on 
that point. ^ 

( The information furnished is identified as exhibit No. 2i, and is on 

file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. Governor Stevenson, it is not our province to rec- 
ommend for or against State or local legislation on its merits, but we 
have been very much interested in the difficulty and I think perhaps 
unsuccessful, although hardjight you made in the last legislature to 
try to get some improvement in criminal procedure and grand- jury 
proceedings and what not. In that connection would you describe 
theoppositionandthe difficulty you had with it? . 

Governor Stevenson. In anticipation of that question, Mr. Chair- 
man, I have done no more than try to refresh my own recollection of 
precisely what happened by reference to the legislative digest, which, 
accounts for the fate of thebills sponsored by the Chicago Crime Com- 
mission in the last session of the legislature. There were five of them 
in all. Two of these bills never passed the Senate. They died m 



214 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

committee. Three of tliem passed the senate and went to the house. 
In the case of two of them the house committee on the judiciary rec- 
ommended that they do not pass and the bills were tabled in committee. 
In the third, the grand jury bill, which was the one on which there 
was a general concentration of effort to secure its passage, the house 
judiciary committee recommended that the bill do not pass. On the 
floor of the house there was a motion to nonconcur with the committee 
report, and on the roll call in the house, June 1, 194:9, the bill was 
tabled by a vote of 66 to 56. 

I don't have tlie breakdown name by name of the vote in the liouse. 
I can add only that this was a bitter contest. There were elements 
in the legishiture which were opposed to these bills and have been 
traditionally. I think you are all familiar with that. On the other 
hand, there were many very conscientious people — perhaps I shouldn't 
say man}'', but there were a number, and I recall talking to all of them 
one by one personally — who voted against this grand jury bill, for rea- 
sons that I cannot in any way associate with any desire to frustrate 
criminal justice. They sprang from lawyers' convictions about proper 
administration of justice. They sprang perhaps in part from a mis- 
understanding of the use to which an extension of the term of the 
grand jury in a county was put, the fears of political persecution and 
things of that kind. There were many downstate members who voted 
against this bill, people in no way connected with the Chicago crime 
situation. 

The Chairman. Is it fair to say, however, that there was srbstantial 
opposition to the bill and to the other parts of the program flowing out 
of what you believe to be a desire to protect certain criminal elements 
or certain types of illegal activities? 

Governor Stevenson. That is my surmise. Obviously I can't prove 
that, but that is my surmise. I think that is generally conceded to 
be true. 

The Chairman. Was it the West Side senators from Chicago — is 
that the section? 

Mr. KoBiNsoN. The river wards. 

Governor Stevenson. Both senators and members of the house who 
were bitterly opposed to it. I must add there were others bitterly 
opposed to it who were in no way identified with them. 

The Chairman. Governor Stevenson, what province, if any, or what 
additional activity do you think Congress might take on behalf of the 
Federal (iovernment to supplement or to assist or in any way properly 
to help State or local law-enforcement officers with their problem? 

Governor Stevenson. Senator, in a preliminary way, because I 
might have more considered views later on this, I think there are three 
ways that occur to me, none of which isjny original thought. One is 
of course to forbid the interstate shipment of gambling devices. 

The Chairman. How would that help you here in Illinois ? Aren't 
most of the coin machines made in the State of Illinois? 

Governor Ste\tenson. They are. I think virtually all of them are 
actually made in Chicago. It would help us in this respect, I thiidc 
and hope : That if the business was confined wholly to the manufac- 
ture of slot machines for Illinois, and if we had vigorous and con- 
tinuous law enforcement in Illinois, you would dry up the market. 
That is fairly obvious. I think it would help us in that respect. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 215 

I also think that the interstate distribution by wire in any of its 
forms of racing: news would tend to make opei'ation of horse parlors 
and bookie joints less profitable and i^erhaps thus break the back of 
that problem. 

There is one other thing that I should like to add on which I don't 
speak with any great degree of confidence. It has always seemed to 
me anomolous and contradictory that tlie Federal Government should 
issue tax stamps for oambling devices; in other words, that tlie Fed- 
eral Government should tax Avhat the State of Illinois outlaws. I 
believe I would recommend that the Federal Government repeal the 
Federal tax on gambling devices on slot machines, et cetera, in States 
where they are illegal. It makes for confusion, makes for a curious 
moral confusion at the local level. People simply cannot understand 
why the Federal Government licenses, as they put it — we know it isn't 
a license, it is a tax — they call it a license, why it licenses a device and 
we destroy it. That is a difficulty that I think could be remedied by 
the repeal of the tax provision. 

The Chairman. In States where they are illegal? 

(xovernor Ste\-exson. Where they are illegal; yes. There is a cer- 
tain inconsistency about that. 

The Chairman. JNIayb? Mr. Kerner can help us out on this. Is there 
a precedent for applying a tax provision to one State without applying 
it to the Xation generally? 

Mr. Kerner. I know of none. 

The Chairman. Or some of your internal revenue people may help 
us. 

Mr. Kerner. As a matter of fact, a similar type of stamp tax is the 
alcohol stamp, which is issuable of course in dry States as well as wet 
States. 

The Chairman. I think that is a problem that this committee should 
cope with and go into. We have had that same complaint brought to 
our attention many places, that it takes away the moral sting of having 
these things if the Federal Government gives them some sanction by 
taxing them. 

Governor Stevenson. At least the people think it is a sanction, 
whether it is or not. 

Mr. Kerner. The advantage that I can see, Governor — it has been 
used certainly extensively in the last few years, particularly in Cook 
County and perhaps by the State — has been the publication of the 
names of the individuals and the locations of the various slot ma- 
chines, which has then been used as an address book, you might say, 
for the local law enforcing authorities to investigate those locations 
and find these slot machines and take them and destroy them. 

Governor Stevenson. I would like to say there, in view of what the 
United States attorney sa3^s, that we have had the utmost cooperation 
from the collector of internal revenue in making available to us infor- 
mation about tax stamp applications, which have given us the lead on 
many locations ; and somewhat due to our initiative, I think, they have 
started this practice of publication of these localities for the first time 
in the history of Illinois in the last 6 months, continuous weekly publi- 
cation of all applications for tax stamps. That has been a useful 
thing which we would lose in the event you repealed the tax stamp. 

The Chairman. I saw in some Chicajro paper some months ago 
editorials indicating that the Internal Revenue Department ceased 



216 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

posting a list of slot macliine applications here in Cook County. I 
spoke to Mr. Foley about it. I tliink that that decision was reversed, 
wasn't it, Mr. Kerner? 

Mr. Keener. I don't know exactly what took place, but I do recall 
that I believe it was said that it would be withheld for a period of 
time, his tabulation of those licenses, and he did later, I believe, around 
the 1st of September or thereabouts, tabulate them for the newspapers. 
In other words, there are not only gamblino; device licenses in that 
section of the cashier's office, but apparently all other types of Federal 
license stamps. It was just a temporary manpower shortage that 
caused the refusal to give that information at that time. 

Governor Stevenson. In the district situated in Springfield, Mr, 
Chairman, they have issued the figures and the names from the start, 
when we commenced this thing 6 months ago. 

The Chairman. Do you have any difficulty. Governor Stevenson, 
with the j^resent fugitive from justice law, that is, in certain types 
of cases the Federal Government helps you get people back, in felonies, 
I believe? Is there anything to the argument from your viewpoint 
that the Fugitive From Justice Act should be extended and strength- 
ened? Or has it worked to thwart an administration of justice in 
Illinois? 

Governor Stevenson. I am really not ]:>repared to connnent on 
that. I just don't know. That has not been a problem that has come 
to my attention. 

The Chairman. Do you have any questions, Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. No questions. 

The Chairman. Mr. Robinson ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I would like to ask the Gov- 
ernor three or four questions. 

Governor, did you experience any difficulty in connection with the 
Hyde Park raid so far as the courts were concerned ? 

Governor Ste\^nson. We are in the midst of a great deal of diffi- 
culty I'ight now. It is important to distinguish between the two 
establishments, the 200 Clul) and the Hyde Park Club. In one case 
the operators plead guilty. There was no problem there, or relatively 
little problem aside from delays and what not. In case of the other 
one tliey didn't, and there we are now confronted with an opinion by 
the count}^ court, the county judge of Madison County which finds 
that the State of Illinois has no legal authority to use the State police 
for gambling raids. He has construed very narrowly the statute 
which recites the jurisdiction of the State jiolice, and he has refused 
to order the destruction of the equipment seized in that raid or the 
money. He has entered an order to the State to turn over the equip- 
ment and the money to the operators. It presents us with some diffi- 
culty because he doesn't define and doesn't indicate who the operators 
are, so we don't know to whom to turn it over, just as an example of 
what seems to me the incongruities in this decision. 

In the second place, if he narrowly limits the jurisdiction of the 
State police to crimes committed on the highways only, you can see 
the implications. Does that mean that a State policeman can't pre- 
vent a murder or a felony off the highway? It seems incredible. 

In that case, however, we have already appeared before the judge 
again to ask him to reconsider his order and to amplify it, and I have 



ORGANIZED CRIME I^' INTERSTATE COMMERCE 217 

no doubt that we will take an appeal from it and that ultimately we 
\rill get a decision of the hijrhest tribunal in Illinois. 

The details with respect to this tlnng are extensive, and I think it 
you would like to have a more elaborate description of the legal pro- 
ceedino-s down there I would have to provide it to you otherwise or ask 
to be lieard again, or preferably I would suggest that those questions 
be addressed to the attorney general. 

Mr RoBixsoN. I was just interested m that one point, i had seen 
some comment on it, that there had been some legal qiestion raised 
about the authority of the State police under the law to do what they 

did. , 11- 

Governor Stevenson. You see, that was a bookie case. 
The Chairman. Is that the case this fellow Moore ran, or is that 
the Hyde Park Club? . „ , .. 

Governor Ste%'enson. It was the Hyde Park, Moore s place. 
Mr. Flanagan. Moore's was the Hyde Park. 

Governor STE^-ENS0N. You see. Senator, if this opinion stands, we 
can't even raid slot machines, let alone bookies, because the opinion 
doesn't limit itself wholly to the type of devices seized pursuant to a 
seai-ch warrant. In these two bookie cases it says categorically that 
the State police have no right to interfere in matters of local law 
enforcement. 

The Chairman. Anvthing else. Mr. Robinson? 

Mr. Robinson. I have one further question, Governor. You men- 
tioned that there were perhaps a number of legislators who sincerely 
voted against the grand jury bill. Do you know .whether or not those 
same individuals voted against, I think you called it the provisions ot 
the legislation seeking to change the constitution to provide a way for 
amencling the constitution ? 

Governor Stevenson. No. I am sure not all of them by any means. 
There was a group of representatives from the city of Chicago who 
were obviouslv more preoccupied with defeating the grand jury bill 
than they were with the constitutional convention. I think that is 
what vou are referring to. 

Mr.*^ Robinson. That is true. , , i 

Governor Stevenson. That was the trade that you have heard 
mentioned from time to time? 

What I was saying is that there were fellows who voted against 
these bills in good conscience. I think thev were misguided and 
wrono- but thev did. Thev were not people who by any remote chance 
you TOukl identify with any syndicate representation or gambler 
representation in the legislature. 

Mr Robinson. Governor, has there come to your attention at all 

any examples of influence of the so-called mob on State, county, or 

local political organizations^ n. .1 . t i ^ .,. 

Governor Stevenson. I can't say that myself, that I know ot any 

connection between the mob and local political organizations. 

Mr Robinson Bv wav of political contributions or otherwise. 

Governor Stevenson. "I just don't know. It is entirely hearsay and 

f suspicion on my part. I can't testify from any personal knowledge. 

You do run into things that don't have perhaps any too much to with 

bi- oro-anized syndicates in localities throughout Ilhnois where there 

ha^. been a sort of bipai-tisan arrangement apparently tor years, 

68958 — 51 — 1 c. '. 15 



218 ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

whereby one party elects the sheriff' and the other party the State's 
attorney, and then when the people complain about non-law enforce- 
ment they pass the buck back and forth and ])ut the people in a sort 
of cross rut between the two parties, each on disclaiming any responsi- 
bility for it and blaming the other. Then in the next election they 
will reverse the tables, and a Democrat will become State's attorney 
and a Republican sheriff', and vice versa. I don't identify that Avith 
any major organization that may exist. 

Mr. Robinson. It also has been indicated. Governor, that this 
so-called syndicate through shady ward committeemen control several 
thousand votes in Illinois. Do you have any comment to make on 
tlnU ? 

Governor Stevenson. None except the obvious one that if they are 
as powerful as they appear to be, I would imagine they certainly did, 
but I can't give you any information to prove anything of that kind. 
It is just surmise. I would like to make it ]:)erfectly clear. Senator, 
that in telling you what we have done I haven't gone into detail. We 
have done a lot of things. We have been at pains to talk with the 
telephone company and with the Western Union Co., to get their 
cooperation. We have attempted to use the Liquor Control Act of 
Illinois as device for enforcing the gambling laws. We have had 
some bad luck on that. We are in court on that, as you can imagine. 
We have attempted to withhold or to suspend the issuance of retail 
liquor licenses in establishments which have condoned gambling, where 
there have been actual raids, where it is demonstrable. The supreme 
court has granted a writ of error, certiorari, or something or other, 
and is going to review that matter. 

The Chairman. We had some testimony that the matter of issuing 
a liquor permit, either retail or wholesale, was purely a local matter 
with the city police here in Chicago, for instance. I wondered if 
the State did have some jurisdiction over these permits. 

Governor Stevenson. The law in Illinois has been construed by the 
lower court to be in effect that the State must issue a license to any 
tavern that has been licensed by the city. We have taken the position 
that, no; that would make the State's function meaningless and that 
the State itself must review the qualifications of applicants. The ap- 
pellate court reversed the lower court and now it is on appeal to the 
State supreme court, but it won't be a satisfactory answer in that 
particular case because it doesn't relate to gambling per se. We have 
had a great many difficulties. We take the ])Osition that if we are 
going to go into this thing, however reluctantly, we have to go in it 
all the way. As I say, we have encountered this decision in Madison 
County which challenges the whole problem of the State's constitu- 
tional right to intervene, and we have also encountered this very 
limited notion of what the powers of the State patrol are. 

Mr. Robinson. In connection with activities to suppress slot ma- 
chines, have you encountered any propaganda efforts on the part of 
the manufacturers of slot machines or association of the manufac- 
turers of slot machines to jilay up the fact that slot machines are used 
by charitable organizations for charitable purposes and provide a 
means for obtaining money for those purposes, and play down the 
use of slot machines for outright gambling activities? 

Governor Stevenson. No ; I haven't encountered that. I have had 
no personal contact with the associations of the industry. I was under 



ORGA^^IZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 219 

the impression that they had been rather cooperative. I am afraid I 
can't comment intelligently on that. It is a little vague to me. It is 
just things I have heard. 

Mr. Robinson. That is all. 

The Chairman. Governor Stevenson, we are most grateful to you 
for coming and giving us the benefit of your experienced recommenda- 
tions. I know it has been quite a sacrifice. 

(Off the record.) 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF PAUL DeLUCIA (PAUL RICCA), RIVER 

FOREST. ILL. 

The Chairman. Mr. DeLucia. you have been previously sworn in 
this proceeding, and Mr. Robinson has some additional questions he 
wants to ask you. 

Mr. DeLucia. Before you start. Mr. Robinson, I received a letter 
the other day about me bringing some more checks. I tried to see you 
yesterday, and I want to explain. I haven't got them checks. That 
was from away back. 

Mr. Robinson. I see. 

I think you previously testified regarding the fact that you had im. 
cash the sum of $300,000 before you went into the penitentiary. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. And that you had that sum, of course, when j'oii 
came out. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Was that the total amount that you had? 

Mr. DeLucia. I had about that much; yes. I give it the best I 
could. 

Mr. Robinson. What have you done with that $300,000 since you 
came out of the penitentiary ? 

]VIr. DeLucia. I used it on my farm, for living, and that is all. 

Mr. Robinson. How much of it do you have left at the present time? 

Mr. DeLucia. I told you I had about $40,000 left. 

Mr. Robinson. $40,000 left out of the $300,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the purpose of putting that back into the 
farm? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well. I can't get in no business. When I come out 
1 coidd do nothing. I had the farm, so I figured the farm was in- 
terrible shape and I had to do all that building and all that. 

]Mr. Robinson. Is there any other reason ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you make some saving on your income tax in 
that respect, by putting your capital back into the farm? 

Mr. DeLucia. I suppose the bookkeeper can tell you better that. It 
is a capital investment. 

j\Ir. Robinson. I believe you also testified previously, Mr. DeLucia^ 
that you had made several loans since you came out of the penitentiary- 
Mr. DeLucia. Yes; two loans. 

jVIr. Robinson. Do you remember when the first one was? 

]Mr. DeLucia. I think the first one was around 1948. I am not sure 
about 1048. 



220 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Did you receive a loan from Mr. Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. When, to the best of your recollection ? 

Mr. DeLucia, To the best of my recollection it was around the 
spring or a little later than the spring, something around that. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember how long it was after you came 
out of the penitentiary that you made that loan? 

Mr. DeLucia. I would say about a year, anyway. 

Mr. Robinson. A year after you came out ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Something like that, maybe less or more. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you tell what the circumstances were ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I told you, Mr. Robinson, I figured I had to spend a 
lot of money there. I made my plans to improve the farm to the best 
I could do it, and I said with this money I got, I always try to keep 
some cash on hand, and I tried to borrow some money on my house or 
something so I have some money to play with. 

Mr. Robinson. Why did you pick Mr. Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Because Bennett — I couldn't go to no bank. Nobody 
would borrow me any money on my reputation and all that, so I 
scratched my head and said, "Oh, gee." I knew Bennett was working 
at the track, and I said, "Maybe he can help me." I called him, and 
that is all. 

Mr. Robinson. Hadn't you got even loans from banks or insurance 
companies ? 

Mr. DeLucia. $11,000 worth. I went to the bank where I was deal- 
ing, and I asked them if I could get more money, and I brought my 
insurance policy, securities and this and that. I couldn't get a penny. 
He said, "No, you have to bring collateral or else you get nothing." 
So I had to get all my bonds, the bonds I had and put them in escrow 
to them and I got dollar for dollar. That is the chance the bank took. 
So that is all I got. I talked to Bennett and I explained my situation, 
and lie said I will try to do the best I can. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you first get in touch with Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember. It was somewhere around that 
time. I was looking out for myself ahead, Mr. Robinson. He said "I 
will let you know." Then later on I called and he said, "Any time you 
want it." 

Mr. Robinson. Did you see him personally or call him by telephone 
first? 

Mr. DeLucia. I called him by phone first. 

Mr. Robinson. You asked him then for the loan ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I called him and wanted to see him. He came over 
to the house and I talked to him, 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I have known Bennett for a long time. I laiew him 
when he was a kid. 

Mr. Robinson. How many times had you seen him while you were 
in the penitentiaiy ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I never saw him in the penitentiary. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he ever write to you in the penitentiary ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. How many times did you see him before you went 
into the penitentiary ? 



ORGA^^^ZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 221 

Mr. DeLucia. I asked him about the track or something like that. 
I used to see him sometime with the family or somethuig like that. 

Mr. Robinson. How frequently would that be ? 

:Mr. DeLucia. Oh, you have got me on something I wouldn't know, 
not so much, but quite"^ a few times. 

Mr. Robinson. Would it be four or five times a year '. 

Mr. DeLucia. I would say so, yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Not more than that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, maj'be more or less. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you know Bennett's father? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, very well. I know his brother. 

Mr. Robinson. AAliat business is his father in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. His father was a painter, as much as I know. 

Mr. Robinson. By painter you mean 

Mr. DeLucia. He was an amateur painter, or something, but here 
is what it is : The real story is that he used to be, when I used to work 
in the theater, when first I came over here, he used to take part m the 
Italian show there. He used to play parts. He would take part m 
the show. That is how I know him. 

Mr. Hallet. ^Yhs^t is Bennett "s right name? 

Mr. DeLucia. Benvenuti. 

Mr. Robinson. How was the first loan made? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember, ]\Ir. Robinson. I think the first 
one I got $10,000. Then I got the rest. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you get the rest? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember if I got checks or cash. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall whether or not you got a check first 

from Bennett? ^ ^ ^ ^ ^..^n ^.^^ 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, I got the first check and then I got $30,000 
check, I think, all by check. 

Mr. Robinson. You definitely remember whether you got the second 
check of $30,000 from Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. I am pretty sure. Don't hold me to that, lou 
know, Mr. Robinson, I try to tell you the best of my recollection, and 
1 think that is what it is. Don't hold me to it because lot of things 
happen to me and my mind at times gets hazy on this stuff. 

Mr. Robinson. You know how you would get a $30,000 loan. 

Mr. DeLucia. I think I cot a check both times. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you at any time get cash as part of that $30,000 i 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I don't think so. 

Mr. Robinson. Would you say you didn't ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I wouldn't say that, but I am pretty sure 1 got 
checks. I deposited it in the bank. ■ x, i « i. 

Mr. Robinson. Was there a mortgage that went with that nrst 
$40,000 loan? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. On what property. 

Mr. DeLucia. On Long Beach. I told them, I said, "I am going 
to sell this." I had a prospect for sale. They came around, t irst 
they sav they do and then when we tried to close the deal they backed 
down. "^ I have a few prospects now to sell. As soon as I sell I gave 
him the money. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you actually give a mortgage on that property i 

Mr. DeLucia. Why certainly. 



222 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember what the terms of the note were? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think the mortgage was around 4 or 5 percent. I 
don't know, 4 or 5 percent interest, something like that. 

Mr. Robinson. Was there any due date on the mortgage? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; 5 years. I figured in 5 years I would sell. 

Mr. Robinson. You have paid no interest on that mortgage? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Was that part of the arrangement? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. ]\Iy understanding was that I was 
going to pay the whole thing. You see, the idea was that I was going 
to sell the house. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you receive the second loan ? 

Mr. DeLucia. The second loan I got a check — I met him at the 
Cicero bank and I think the check was cashed over there. 

Mr. Robinson. Was the check made out to you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. To me; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. And was cashed at the Cicero bank ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember the name of the bank, a Cicero 
bank. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you do with that money? 

Mr. DeLucia. I kept it myself and I used it. 

Mr. Robinson. Diet you put any of that money in the bank ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Why certainly, whatever money I had left. Until 
I needed some money for the family I put it in the bank. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any records to show that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. You have the bank records. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether that $40,000 loan, the second 
one, was entered in your books or not ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think so. I think it was entered in my books. 

Mr. Robinson. Who keeps your books ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bernstein. You have the books there. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember telling him to enter that in the 
books? 

Mr. DeLucia. Certainly he put it in the books ; yes. 

Mr. H alley. While we are on that second loan, did you give a note 
for it ? Did you sign a note ? 

Mr. DeLucia. 1 gave him the deed to the farm and all that. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't sign the deeds over, did you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. This lawyer got all that stuff. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat is the lawyer's name ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Joe Butler. 

The Chairman. Where is he ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He is at 105 Adams Street. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you need the second loan ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Because I was getting pretty close. I needed some 
more money. As I told you, I always like to keep some money on hand. 

Mr. Halley. You made the first loan when, how soon after you came 
out of prison ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think about a year or shortly after that. 

Mr. Halley. How long after that did you make the second loan ? 

Mr. DeLucia. This year, somewhere in the summer, the early part 
of the summer. 

INIr. Halley. Just a few months ago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 



ORGAMZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 223 

Mr. Halley. You borrowed a second $40,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You say the reason is that you were getting short 
of cash ? 

Mr DeLucia. Yes. 

]\Ir. Halley. You received a check from Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. I signed it at the bank and I got cash. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go to the bank with Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. His bank? 

:Mr. DeLucia. Some bank in Cicero. I don't know if it was his bank 
or not. 

Mr. Halley. What bank? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think it was the Cicero State Bank or something 
like that. 

Mr. Halley. You signed the back of the check ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, that is right. 

Mr. Halley. You testified some time ago that you still had $30,000 
or $40,000 left of your own money. 

Mr. DeLucia. Now, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is that in addition to the $40,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, all included. 

Mr. Halley. So that right now is it your testimony that you are 
broke except for the money you borrowed from Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I ain't broke. I got about $40,000. 

Mr. Halley. You have about $40,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. But you say you got $40,000 from Bemiett a fevs 
months ago? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is the $40,000 you have in addition to what you got 
from Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I mixed all I had. When I got the money I 
mixed it with some money I had in the bank. 

Mr. Halley. So right now you have 

Mr. DeLucia. $40,000. It would be a little less now. 

Mr. Halley. That $40,000 is what you owe Bennett, is that right? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Also you owe him another $40,000 on the mortgage ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. When are you supposed to pay the second $40,000 

back ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think it is about 5 years. 

Mr. Halley. In about 5 years ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you give him something in writing? 

Mr. DeLucia. They got my deeds and all that stuff for the farm, 
whatever it is. 

Mr. Halley. Did you write something on the back of the deed ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No', I don't remember writing anything. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't write anything ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you write anything on the front of the deed? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. You just handed it to him ? 



224 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DeLucia. I just handed him the deed, that is all. 

Mr. Halmy. You could ^et your deeds back. That doesn't mean 
anything, does it, handin<r a man a deed. 

Mr. DeLucia. I understand the lawyer to say it was all right. 
Whatever kind of deal it was, I don't know. Those things are done 
by a lawyer. I don't know about that. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't even give Bennett a note? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. How did you approach him for the second $40,000? 
Will you tell the committee just what happened ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I called him again and I said, 'T need a little more 
money here. I tried to get money from the Metropolitan, I tried 
to get money from the Oak Park and I tried to get money from the 
Prudential because I figured maybe I could make a mortgage there, 
and they all turned me clown." 

I said, "Hugh, I am in the same predicament," and asked him if 
he would help me out and he said he would. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go to see him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He came over to the house. 

Mr. Halley. About when did he come, would you say ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember that, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Was it summertime ? 

Mr. DeLucia. How can you remember that ? 

Mr. Halley. It is a very important thing to remember, so let's 
try hard? 

Mr. DeLucia. He come over to the house and I told him, see? 

Mr. Halley. Was it in May, June 

Mr. DeLucia. It was around there. It was shortly before I got the 
mortgage. 

Mr. Halley. Shortly before you got the mortgage. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He said give me the paper and I will have a 
lawyer work on it. 

Mr, Halley. We are not talking about the mortgage. We are 
talking about the second loan. 

JNIr. DeLucia. That is right, yes. 

Mr. Halley. There was no mortgage on the second loan? 

Mr. DeLucia. They have got it, the lawyer. I don't know. It is 
at the bank or some place. 

Mr. Halley. I thought 3^ou said that the mortgage was on the first 
loan. 

Mr. DeLucia. A mortgage on the farm, too, on the second loan. 

Mr. Halley. You made out a second mortgage ? 

Mr, DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. I thought you said you didn't sign any papers. 

Mr. DeLucia. I didn't sign any papers. I don't remember signing 
any papers. If I signed any I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. How coulcl you give a mortgage without signing a 
paper? 

Mr. DeLucia. Because my property is in trust with the Oak Park 
National Bank, and I told them that and they went over to the bank 
there and they made it. 

Mr. Halley. You mean they got a mortgage from the Oak Park 
Bank? 

Mr. DeLucia. I suppose ; yes. That is how they worked it. 



O'RGAJ^IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 225 

^\r H\LLEY What lawyer represented you in the transaction? 
Mr.' S.^uciA. I didn't have a' hxwyer. The Oak Park Bank is my 

trustee, you see. • ., ^ o 

Mr. Halley. What kind of trust is tliat ? 
Mr. DeLucia. I put all my property in trust. 
Mr. Halley. Wlien did you do that? 

Mr DeLucia. I did that I think about a year or so after I came out. 
Mr. Halley. Is it a trust of which you are the beneticiary i 
Mr. DeLucia. No ; my kids and my wife. c • • 9 

Mr. Halley. Your kids and your wife are the benehciaries i 
Mr. DeLucia. That is right. . ^ , • ^^ ^ ^ 

Mr. Halley. The Oak Park National Bank is the trustee. 
Mr. DeLucia. The trustee; yes. n . .i noV Pnr^V 

Mr H\LLEY. With whom do you deal personally at the Oak rarK 

Bank? AVlio is the man who takes care of your matters^ 

Mr DeLucia. I don't know who it is. I think the fellow who did 

that for me was Joe Bulger. I think one of the fellows was Tomasco 

and Spring. 

Mr. Halley. Joe Bulger? -, ,, , ^ j- 

Mr DeLucl\. Joe Bulger is the one that made the trust tor nie. 

Mr. Halley. He made the trust for you. I thought you said he was 

Bennett's lawyer. , . -n, ^.i.? i 

Mr. DeLucia. No. That is Butler who is Bennett s lawyer. 

Mr. Halley. And youi^ is Bulger? 

Mr. DeLucia. Bulger, Joseph Bulger. You know him. 

Mr. Halley. Is Bulger the man who used to be the head ot the 
Italian- American League ? 

Mr. DeLucl\. Yes, sir; in fact, he is now. 

Mr. Halley. xind he is your lawyer? ' ,. xr ^ i 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. He was on that thing. He took care 

of it. 

Mr. Halley. He made the trust lor you. 

Mr. DeLucia That is right. A^ a -^9 

Mr H\LLEY. Wlio are the people at the bank who handled iti 

Mr DeLucia. I think either Mr. Spring or Mr. Tomasco. 

Mr. Hai^ey. Was the trust an irrevocable trust, do you know i 

Mr! DeLucl\. I don't know that. 

Mr. Halley. But it was a trust for your children and your wile i 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. ^ .1 i n ■ ■ 

Mr. Ha-lley. And not for you? Are you one of the beneficiaries, 

^Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. My understanding is that it is me 
and my wife and the kids. 

Mr. 'Halley. This trust? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, that is right. 

Mr. Halley. Then you needed $40,000 yourself. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr Halley. And your trustee borrowed $40,000 tor you. 

Mr." DeLucl\. That is the way I understand, yes. 

Mr. Halley. And the trustee agreed to give you a mortgage? 

Mr DeLucia. I suppose. Don't hold me on that technicality, Mr. 
Halley I am green on that. I told you what happened, and that is 
all there is. If you go into those details, I will give you an answer, 
I want to give you an answer that makes sense. 



226 ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr Halijsy. The technicalities may prove to be important and we 
have to get them. 

Mr. DeLucia. I am sure I can't give yon a better answer than that. 

Mr. Halley. Yon give the best answers you can. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is the best I can give you. 

Mr. Hali^ey. You needed $40,000 for yourself, is that right? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. For what purpose? 

Mr. DeLucia. For the farm, for living. 

Mr. Halley. For living. 

Mr. DeLucia. Why, sure, for my farm and for my expenses on my 
larm and for my living. -' i j 

Mr. Halley. At that time how much money did you have left? 

Mr. DeLucia. Jesus, I wouldn't know, Mr. Halley. I was gettino- 
pretty low. & & 

Mr. Halley. We can figure it out very easily. You testified— 
Don t look troubled by this. This is very important and I would 
like your cooperation. 

Mr. DeLucia. I try to give you all I can. I don't know how much 
money I had. I don't know how much I had left. I know it 
was getting pretty low, you see, Mr. Halley, but I can't give you the 
number, I can't. 

Mr. Halley. You had a bank account, didn't you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. In what bank ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Northern Trust. 

Mr. Halley. In Chicago ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. That is the bank account out of which vou handled 
all the expenses for the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And your living expenses ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, some w\as cash, you see. 

Mr. Halley. Some was cash. Do vou have any other bank ac- 
count ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 
f.n¥^^' ^f^^EY. Why is it that when yon get a sum as large as $40,- 
000 you take that m cash and do not put it in the bank ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is a lot of monev to put in a bank, $40,000, all 
at one time, Mr. Halley. . ' ' 

Mr. Halley. Don't you think it is a lot of money to keep in your 
house m cash? i^ ^ 

Mr. DeLucia. Well, I needed some cash for the house. I needed 
some cash, you know, you never can tell. So I figure I can keep the 
money. I always like to keep money in my hands. 

Mr. Halley. For what did yon need sums in money in cash? 

Mr. DeLucia. I always like to keep money in cash 'on hand. I was 
told when I was a boy to keep cash money on hand at all times. 

Mr. Halley. That is very nice, Mv. Ki'cca, but we are serious about 
that. I don't care about what yon were told since you were a boy. 
What I want to know is this : We have seen your books. They were 
kept for the benefit of the parole officer, and everything is paid by 
check and kept in the books in great detail. Will you tell this com- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE' 227 

]nittee what you needed large sums of money in cash for 3 or 4 months 
ago? 

Mr. DeLucia. I always have cash in my home. 

The CiiAiRMAX. Mr. Ricca, that is not a very satisfactory answer. 
You have a bank account and keep a lot of money there. 

Mr. DeLucia. Senator, that is the best answer. Maybe you won't 
believe it, but that is true. 

The Chairman. There isn't anything about this security matter. 
The money is more secure in a bank than it is in a box in your house. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

The Chairman. We want to know why you had to keej) such large 
sums of monev in your house or on yourself. 

Mr. DeLucia. I am sorry, Senator, I can't give a better answer than 
that, and I mean it. I am sincere about it. I always like to keep 
money in my hands. 

Mr. Hallet. At the time you borrowed that money how much 
money of your own did you have left ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't' remember. If I say anything else, I tell you 
a lie. I know I was getting pretty low. 

Mr. Halley. It was getting pretty low. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have $10,000 left? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I don't know-. 

Mr. Halley. When did you make this loan ? You say in the sum- 
mertime. 

Mr. DeLucia. Two or three months ago, something like that, three 
or four months ago. 

]\Ir. Halley. How much money did you spend in the last 3 months ? 

Mr, DeLucia. You have it there. 

Mr. Halley. I have it where ? 

Mr. DeLucia. In the reports and all that. 

Mr. Halley. No ; I want you to tell me. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't remember, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say under oath that it is your testimony 
that everything you spent in the last 3 months is reflected in your 
books ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I would, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you spend large sums in cash for any purpose 
whatsoever ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you use any money for gambling ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you lend any of that money to anyone else 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Wait and get the question now. Did you lend any 
of that money to anyone else 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir ; no. Senator. 

The Chairman. Or give it to them ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no. 

Mr. Halley. You are sure of that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Since I come out, Mr. Halley, I made a good start 
to go straight. I have tried to straighten myself out as best I could. 
I want you to believe me on that. I haven't done anything out of 
the way at all. 



228 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Halley. How did you expect to ffet tlie money to pay back 
$40,000? ■ J I .r 

Mr. DeLucia. I expected that in the next year or so the farm Avould 
be producing some money for me. I have "a stock of steers there, I 
have corn coming up, I have 420 acres of corn to sell, I have about 
2 acres of soybeans to sell, I sold about $9,500 worth of wheat. I 
tliink if I fix all those buildings, and I had to have a place to keep 
the animals and all that, I think the steers and hogs and the corn 
and all that — I think I can make a good living. It is a big farm, 
and if the prices hold up I will make some money. If I don't make 
any money, I have to sell the farm ; I have to come up to the authorities 
and say, "I can do nothing, and there you are." I will go to the 
parole people and tell them. 

Mr. Halley. But you can't sell the farm. It belongs to the trustee. 

Mr. DeLucia. What? That is my farm. What do you mean, it 
belongs to the trustee ? 

Mr. Halley. You gave it to the trustee to hold. 

Mr. DeLucia. If I don't pay the mortgage, they are going to come 
and take the farm away from me. 

Mr. Halley. What is the point of the trust, Mr. Kicca? What did 
you have a trust for ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I figured in case I die or something, the kids have the 
farm, they have the take. Suppose my wife gets married again or 
something. 

Mr. Halley. Did you form the trust to avoid the taxes in case you 
died? -^ 

Mr. DeLucia. Do you save the tax if you die with a trust? 

Mr. Halley. If you don't own it you don't pay a tax. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't Imow that.' 

Mr. Halley. I am curious to find out why you formed the trust. 

Mr. DeLucia. I have to leave it to somebody, and I figured, suppose 
I die tomorrow, I don't know what my wife is going to do. 

Mr. Halley. Can't you make a will ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I suppose so, but 

iVIr. Halley. Who advised you to make a trust? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was talking to a few people and finally I talked to 
Joe Bulger, and Joe Bulger said we will make a trust, and that is the 
end of it. 

Mr. Halley. What did you say was your purpose in making the 
trust ? What did you tell him you wanted to accomplish ? 

Mr. DeLucia. To take care of my family. 

INIr. Hali^ey. To take care of your family. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How many automobiles do you own ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I own a Cadillac. 

Mr. Halley. Nothing else ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have a station wagon on the farrn^ 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Just the one Cadillac? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You bought that in July ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is rijrht. 



ORGANIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229 

Mr. Hallfa'. Despite the fact that you had to borrow $40,000 to live 

on? nr 11 1 4-' 

Mr. DeLucia. I buv a car every 3 years. I tell you, do you want 
to know why I bought it? The war came up, the war started anci 
there was a panic about getting cars and I said I might as well get 
myself a car in case trouble comes. 

Mr. Halley. You say Bennett came to your farm to see you ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He came over to see the farm before he made the 
mortgage; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Had he been to the farm before i 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How often? 

Mr. DeLucia. One or two times, I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did he come alone? 

]Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he say he would have any trouble raising the 
$40,000? , , 

Mr. DeLucia. The second time I saw him he said "Yes, I think I 
can do it," and that is all. 

INIr. Halley. Is he a very wealthy man ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know, Mr. Halley. He has some money, I 
don't know. 

Mr. Halley. What made you think of Bennett as the man who 
would lend you $80,000? 

;Mr. DeLucia. I figured after I got through being turned down at 
the bank, I went to him, and if he had turned me down I would have 
looked for somebody else. 

The Chairman. There is one thing I didn't understand. You said 
after you got through with the banks you went to Mr. Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairmax. Did you make application to some banks? 

Mr. DeLucia. Certainly. 

The Chairman. What banks? 

Mr. DeLucia. The Metropolitan, and they came out to investigate. 
The Prudential came out and investigated. 

The Chairman. You are talking about the Metropolitan and Pru- 
dential insurance companies? 

jSIr. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. To what banks did you make application? 

Mr. DeLucia. Huh ? 

The Chairman. Those are insurance companies. 

Mr. DeLucia. Prudential has my mortgage. 

The Chairman. I know, but what banks? 

Mr. DeLucia. Banks, the Oak Park Bank. They said "No. You 
have a first mortgage and- it is against the law for us to give you money 
on a second mortgage." I tried. Senator. 

The Chairman. What banker did you see there at the Oak Park 
Bank ? Who did you see to try to get a loan ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Mr. Spring. 

The Chairman. At the Oak Park National Bank? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Had you ever been in business with Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 



230 ORGANIZED CRIME) EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether he is in the money-lending 
business ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How much interest did he ask on the second mortgage ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I suppose the same thing, 4 or 5 percent, whatever 
it is ; I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you know how much interest it is ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I dicUi't pay any attention to it. 

Mr. Halley. You paid no attention to it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I mean, I don't remember. It is something like 
that. I have to pay anyway, so when the time comes to pay, I will 
pay it. I was tickled to get the loan, and whatever the interest was, 
I pay it. Those are small details that I don't pay attention to, 

Mr. Halley. You made no arrangements as to how much interest? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, yes ; there is interest there ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. When is it to be paid, at the end ? 

Mr. DeLucia. At the end of 5 years. 

Mr. Halley. You don't pay anything until the 5 years are over? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. There is nothing in writing about that, though? 

Mr. DeLucia. Sure, that is in the papers. Mr. Halley, I haven't 
seen no paper or anything. All I done I gave him the paper and 
took that down to the Oak Park Bank and I got the money. That 
is all. 

Mr. Halley. You think your trustee signed an agreement? 

Mr. DeLucia. I suppose ; yes. They couldn't do it any other way. 

Mr. Halley. And it is for 5 years. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Who is the trustee, exactly ? 

Mr. DeLucia. The Oak Park Bank, the Oak Park National Bank. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. Robinson. I show you exhibit No. 4 which you produced at the 
first hearing and call your attention to the fact that on May 6 there is 
an entry that you got a loan from Hugo Bennett for $10,000. That is 
1948. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. On June 24, 1948. vou received a loan from Hugo 
Bennett for $30,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember how you got that loan of $30,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. By check. 

Mr. Robinson. You are sure of that ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I am pretty sure. 

Mr. Robinson. You did not get it by cash ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you remember whether or not you got a firet 
payment of $20,000 in cash from Mr. Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I think I got $10,000 and then $30,000. 

Mr. Robinson. I am not talking about the May 6 check, but let's 
talk about the $30,000 that you got around June 24. 

Mr. DeLucia. Mr. Robinson, you got me if I got $20,000. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know whether you got it by check or by 
cash? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 231 

Mr. KoBiNSOx. Mr. DeLucia, this is exhibit No. 4, which is the tritil 
balance in your ledger account, July 31, 1950, in which there is re- 
corded a loan payable, a mortgage on the Long Beach property of 
$40,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right, 

Mr. Robinson. Immediately above that is a mortgage payable of 
$10,000. Do you recall what that $10,000 is 'I 

Mv. DrXuciA. That is a mistake or else— that is a mistake. You 
can ask Bernstein. I don't know anything about that. 

Mr. Robinson. Why do you sav it is a mistake? 

Mr. DeLucia. Because that is all I got. I got $40,000, and I got 

$40,000. 

Mr. Robinson. Your point is that that this $40,000 should be 

$30,000? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. And this $10,000 is the first loan you got from 
Bennett ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I am pretty sure ; yes. 

The Chairman. People don't make $10,000 mistakes just by acci- 
dent. 

Mr. DeLucia. ^Nlr. Bernstein kept those books, sir. 

The Chairman. But he got his information from you. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes : but I didn't write that up, you see. 

Mr. Robinson. The second $40,000 you say you never put m any 

Mr! DeLucia. No. I put some of that money in a bank later. You 
know* what I mean. I put $5,000 in the bank, and all that. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known Francis Curry ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Francis Curry, I know around 1930 I suppose, the 
late thirties, something like that. 

Mr Robinson. How- did you happen to meet him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I have met so many people. I know 
I have been good friends with him. 

Mr. Robinson. Was it in connection with gambling? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't he run a gambling establishment ( 

Mr. DeLucia. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you bet with him? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. . 

Mr. Robinson. How did you happen to meet him i , ^ , 

Mr DeLucia. I really don't remember, Mr. Robinson, but I know 
I have been good friends with him. I know we have talked about 

farms and all that. ,.■,-. £ 

Mr. Robinson. How did you happen to hire him to run your tarm 
while you were in the penitentiary ? 

Mr DeLucia. Because when I bought the farm he was instrumental 
in setting me the farm. I told him there was a farm there and he 
said he knew the fellow or something. He got a lawyer by the name 
of Kusick to deal with the Prudential people and that is how I bought 

the farm. , , ^ ^ , , 

Mr. Robinson. Did you check as to whether or not Curry had an;y 

ability to run a farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. When I went away ? 
Mr. Robinson. Yes. 



232 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DeLtjcia. Yes ; he liad a farm liimself. 

Mr, Robinson. What was the arrangement with Curry with respect 
to running your farm? 

Ml-. DeLucia. He was supposed to pay me $7 an acre or something 
like tliat for a time I was away. 

]\Ir. Robinson. Do you know whether or not Curry lost any money 
operating the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I know I got paid. 

INIr. Robinson. Do you know whether or not he made any money? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. I suppose. I don't know. What the 
hell. In those days they all made money on farms, didn't they. I 
don't know if he made money or not. 

Mr. Robinson. I am asking if you know whether or not he made 
money. 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I don't. I never asked him that. 

Mr. Robinson. You never discussed that at all ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He never said anything to me. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you make any loans from Curry ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. DeLucia, you stated, I believe, one of the reasons 
why you wanted to be paroled was the fact that your farm operation 
was at a standstill and it was necessary for you to get back. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Wasn't Curry operating the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Curry wasn't doing any improvement. Curry was 
taking out of the ground, that is all. If he invested some money, he 
didn't know if I was going to come out, if I was going to die in jail 
or anything like that. How was he going to do anything ? 

Mr. Robinson. Wasn't he making imjjrovements to the farm? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Wasn't he buying machinery, equipment? 

Mr. DeLucia. For his own good, to get the farm going he needed 
machinery. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he subsequently sell that to you ? 

JNIr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. The point I don't get is why you were worried about 
the farm. 

Mr. DeLucia. I wanted to improve the fann, Mr. Robinson. 

Mr. Robinson. You were worried about losing the farm?" 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I wasn't worried about losing the fann because 
I knew that the mortgage was five or six thousand dollars a year, and 
the money I got out of the rent he would pay it. That was enough 
to pay it. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you say you borrowed money from Curry? 

Mr. DeLucia. No; I never borrowed money from Curry. 

Mr. Robinson. You never borrowed anything from him? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did you owe him after the deal was over? 

Mr. DeLucia. What deal ? 

Mr. Robinson. After the arrangements for the operation of the 
farm. He was operating the farm while you were in prison. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. Oh, there is a dispute there. He is 
looking for about thirty or thirty-five thousand dollars. We think 
we owe him about twenty thousand. So we let the thing lay. We 



O'RGAMZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233 

didivt see each other any more. He didn't need the money any more 
I suppose, and we didn't bother, and when the time come we lett 
that open.' We didn't settle tliat. . ^ i. n 

Mr. Robinson. Did you buy tractors and farm equipment tor the 
farm after you got out '. 

Mr. DeLucia. Sure. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall whether or not you bought any i^orcl 
tractors or Ford trucks for the farm % 

Mr. DeLucia. I got Ford truck, yes. ,11, 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall from whom you bought them '. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Who? ^ ^ ^ 

Mr. DeLucia. The Ford Truck I bought from Babe Baran. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known Mr. Baran? 

Mr. DeLucia. Many years. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you first meet him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. A^Tien did I tirst meet him? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. , ^ , . i ^ - -.a 

jNIr. DeLucia. I have known Babe, I would say around lo or 20 

:Mr'. Robinson. What business was he in when you first met him ? 

Mr' DeLucia. I don't remember, Mr. Robinson. 

:Mr. Robinson. Do you laiow whether or not he was m any gambling 
business at the time you met him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Robinson. What were your dealings with him at that time { 

^h- DeLucia. You met the boy at some place. You met him any- 
place, some cabaret or something like that. Then he went into the 
Army He became a major or colonel. Then he came out. I w\as m 
the penitentiary, I think, when I read that he had the Ford agency. 
So I went to see him and I got a Ford from him. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you made any other purchases from him { 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. You say you don't know whether or not he was ever 
m any gambling enterprise ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. . . , • • q 

Mr. Robinson. Did Mr. Bennett's father visit with you m prison { 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he ever write to you? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. The man is 90 years old now, Mr. Robinson. 

He is very old. . , tit -r^ t • ^i 4. 

Mr. Robinson. I believe you testified previously, Mr. DeLucia, that 

you know Ben Fillichio. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you testify as to what business he was in { 

Mr. DeLucia. Ben Fillichio to my knowledge has a chain of liquor 
stores He is my next-door neighbor, and there is no other connection 
except the good-neighbor policy. Outside of that there is nothing 
connecting me with him at all or anything like that. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know his brother, Anthony ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know a James Nuzzo? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. sir. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 5 16 



234 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. What business is lie in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He is in the fruit business. 

Mr. Robinson. Any other business ? 

Mr. DeLucia, No, sir ; not that I know of. 

Mr. Robinson. How about James Narro ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Who? 

Mr. Robinson. James Narro. 

Mr. DeLucia. Who is Narro ? 

Mr. Robinson. I am asking you if you know him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Narro? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I don't Iniow him. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Louis Briatta ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know what business he is in ? Did you say 
you know him? 

Mr. DeLucia. I know of him, yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What business is he in ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. Mr. Robinson, who is James Narro? 
Will you please explain that ? 

Mr. Robinson. I am just asking you. You say you don't know him. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. The last name I don't recall at all. 

Mr. Robinson. I believe you also testified that you knew John 
Rosselli. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. John Rosselli, I know him for about 20 years ; better 
than that. 

Mr. Robinson. And you know what business he was in at that time ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know what business he was in since that 
time? 

Mr. DeLucia. Since that time, no. 

Mr. Robinson. You know nothing about his business whatsoever? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you ever discussed it with him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. How frequently would you see him? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I saw Johnnie a few times. He used to come 
around the restaurant there. He went to California and I haven't 
seen him for quite some time. I haven't seen Johnnie now since he 
left Atlanta. The first time I saw him was today — I mean yesterday. 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. DeLucia, how many times did you see Mr. Ben- 
nett between the time you made the first loan and the time you made 
the second loan? 

Mr. DeLucia. I saw him four or five times. 

Mr. RoB'iNSON. Four or five times. 

Mr. DeLucia. Four or five or six times. 

Mr. Robinson. In two years ? 

INIr. DeLucia. Well, maybe a little more. I don't remember. 

Mr. Robinson. You testified you knew Tony Accardo. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Charles Fischetti. 



ORGAN^IZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 235 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. KoBiNSON. Jake Guzik. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. RoBiNSOx. Why is it you made no attempt to make a loan from 
them ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I go to jail tonight. They would send me back to the 
penitentiary. 

Mr. RoBiNSOx. Do you know William Johnston? 

Mr. DeLucia. Who is William Johnston? Which Johnston? 

Mr. RoBixsox. The race-track owner. 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. EoBixsox. You don't know him and never have met him ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. EoBixsox. Do you know John Patton ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Patton, yes. 

The Chairmax. Did you say Yes, you knew him? 

Mr. DeLucia. Johnnie Patton, yes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. You have known him for a number of years ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Wliy is it you didn't ask him for the loan ? 

Mr. DeLucia. For the same reason. You have to consider my posi- 
tion. I can't go no place, can't do nothing. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Was Mr. Bennett the only one that you knew 

Mr. DeLucia. He was the first one I run across. If it wasn't him, 
I would have to get somebody else, Mr. Robinson. If he turned me 
down I would get somebody else. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did Mr. Bennett ever say to you during the course 
of the negotiations for the loan that he didn't know whether he could 
get it himself ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He said he would see. He said he would see. "I am 
pretty sure I can do it." 

The Chairmax. Anything else ? 

Mr. Halley. Getting back to your personal finances, you say that 
when you came out of prison you had $300,000 in cash. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In addition to that, you borrowed $80,000 in all. 

Mr. DeLucia. I borrowed $90,000, $91,000. 

Mr. Halley. From Hugo Bennett only $80,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And $11,000 from the bank. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. The mortgage on your property you had gotten pre- 
vious to your going into prison ? 

Mr. DeLucia. ^Vhat? 

Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first get the mortgage? 

Mr. DeLucia. What mortgage ? 

Mr. Halley. The first mortgage on your property. 

Mc. DeLucia. Wliat property ? 

Mr. Halley. On the Long Beach property. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't have no first mortgage there. I paid that 
mortgage. I didn't have no mortgage. You see, I bought that prop- 
erty for $14,000 in 1934; $14,000 or $15,000, and I was paying so much 
every year with Metropolitan. So the mortgage was paid. 



236 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IJSI INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You testified just a little while as^o that the reason 
you went to Bennett for the mortgage on the Long Beach property was 
that you couldn't get a second mortgage from the bank. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is on this one here. 

Mr. Halley. On which one ? 

Ml-. DeLucia. On the farm. 

Mr. Halley. On the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you go to Bennett in 1948 on the Long Beach 
property ? 

Mr. DeLvtcia. Oh, that was easy to get, but no bank would give me 
anything. Nobody wants to deal with me. 

Mr. Halley. Who gave you the $11,000? 

Mr. DeLucia. The bank. 

Mr. Halley. Why do you say no bank wants to give you money? 

Mr. DeLucia. I had to give them bonds, money, dollar for dollar. 

Mr. Halley. The Long Beach property is real estate. 

Mr. DeLucia. You try it. 

Mv. Halley. That is good collateral. 

:Mr. DeLucia. You try it. 

Mr. Halley. This isn't funny. It is quite serious. You testified 
a little while ago that the reason you went to Bennett was that you 
couldn't get a second mortgage on the Long Beach property. 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I didn't say that. If I said so, I was mistaken. 

Mr. Halley. You also said so in Washington when I questioned 
you, and that was your reason for going to Bennett. 

Mr. DeLucia. I am sorry, Mr. Halley, I was mistaken. 

Mr. Halley. That was wrong? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. What is correct ? 

Mr. DeLucia. This is correct. 

I\Ir. Halley. What? 

Mv. DeLucia. The second mortgage was on the farm, but on the 
Long Beach property there was no mortgage, and I think I told you 
that. 

Mr. Halley. You borrowed $11,000 from the bank, is that correct? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Those two loans, according to your books, were made 
in 1048, is that right? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. When did you get out of prison? 

Mr. DeLucia. 1947. 

Mr. Halley. When you got out of prison you had $300,000 in 
cash. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. By 1948 you had to borrow $41,000— $51,000? 
• Mr. DeLucia. Well, I told you what I did. 

Mr. Halley. Had you spen"t your $300,000? 

]\Ir, DeLucia. No, no ; I didn't spend it. I know to borrow money 
for me it is hard to get, Mr. Halley, and I want you to believe me. 

Mr. Halley. So you were borrowing it far in advance of your 
need ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Why, certainly. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 237 

Mr. Halley. Mr, DeLucia, do you expect anybody to believe that 
story? If we sent this record to the parole officer, would you expect 
him to read it and believe you are telling this committee the truth? 

Mr. DeLucia. I told the parole officer I borrowed the money. 

Mr. Halley. Maybe he didn't cross-examine you about what you 
had. Why did you borrow $51,000 in 1948 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I told you, Mr. Halley. ' 

Mr. Halley. You had $300,000 in cash, is that right, and you bor- 
rowed $51,000 more to have more cash. 

Mr. DeLucia. If I could borrow more I would borrow more. 

Mr. PIalley. You would boirow more ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Surely. 

Mr. Halley. Then by May of this year — according to the books, 
that is when you made the loan — you w^ere broke or almost broke. 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I wasn't broke. 

Mr. Halley. You say altogether now you have only about $-±0,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. There is no mistake there? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. That $40,000 is the same amount you just borrowed 
in May ? All you could have had in May is what you spent between 
May and now, if you have $40,000 left now. 

Mr. DeLucia. I had some money left, I told you. I had some 
money left, and when I got the $40,000 I mixed it with what I had 
left. 

Mr. Halley. That is right, but now you have $40,000 you say. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, maybe a little less or a little more. 

Mr. Halley. Whatever you had left then is what you spent between 
May and October. 

Mr. DeLucia. I didn't get you there. 

Mr. Halley. It is arithmetic. Look. You had a little money left, 
ri^ht, in May when you made the loan ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Then you borrowed $40,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Now you have altogether $40,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, something like that. 

Mr. Halley. So whatever you spent between May and October must 
be what you had left. 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; you see what happened — let me explain this. I 
had something to pay on the farm, around $6,000. 

Mr. Halley. What was payable ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Whatever it is. You have got it. Just a moment. 
So I paid it out of the $40,000. 

Mr. Halley. And you paid it in cash. 

Mr. DeLucia. Just a minute. 

Mr. Halley. How did you pay that $6,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Cash. I put it in the bank. 

Mr. Halley. You put it in the bank ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I put it in my check, whatever it was. Then I had 
corn secured by a Government loan — No. That is right. Oh, no. 
Then I sold my wheat. I got $9,000 — nine-thousand-three-hunclred- 
something. What I did was to put the $6,000 cash back in pocket and 



238 ORGANIZED CRIME' IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

put $3,000 on the book. Yon see how I work. Yon see how I put some 
cash money in there. 

Mr. Halley. I don't see why you need cash at alL 

Mr. DeLucia. You don't ? 

Mr. Halley. I frankly don't. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know what to answer you. 

Mr. Halley. Explain this : You liave $40,000 left noAV, more or less? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Let's say not less than $35,000 and not more than 
$45,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. I am quite sure ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Not more than $45,000 ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I am quite sure ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. All right, not more than $45,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Halley. Does "no" mean you agree with me ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, I agree with you. 

Mr. Halley. Between $35,000 and $40,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You came out of prison in 1947. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. This is the middle of 1950. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Three years. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You have spent $351,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. To improve my place, yes. 

Mr. Hali^y. You put $351,000 into your place? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Your testimony didn't show that. 

Mr. DeLucia. Not on my place; for living, too, and all that. 

Mr. Halley. In 3 years ? 

Mr. DeLucia. My living expense, too. 

Mr. Halley. I think you testified that vou put something over 
$100,000 into the place. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know, whatever it was. It amounts to that 
anyway. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Let's say you put $200,000 into the place. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Let's assume that. 

Mr. DeLucia. And the rest for living. 

Mr. Halley. $50,000 a year? 

Mr. DeLucia. i\. year, Mr. Halley. ISIaybe more or less than that. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't have to pay any income tax on that $350,- 
000. It wasn't income obviously. 

Mr. DeLucia. I didn't make anything. 

Mr. Halley. So if you spent the $150,000 in 3 j^ears for living 
expenses, you actually spent $50,000 a year. 

Mr. DeLucia. $150,000 living expenses; no, no. 

Mr. Halley. What did you spend it for, Mr. DeLucia ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Roughly you figure I would say about $50,000 or 
$60,000 for my living expenses, and the rest went into the farm. 

Mr. Halley. But the books show w^hat went into the farm. 

Mr. DeLucia. Whatever is there is there. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 239 

Mr. Haixet. You testified last time that it was something over 
$100,000, 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; whatever it was. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, if that is all you spent for living expenses, 
there is $351,000 that has to be accounted for somewhere. If you 
spent say $130,000 

Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that on the farm. 

Mr. Halley. What did you spend? 

Mr. Halley. Oh, I don't know^ You have the books. What have 
you got the books for, Mr. Halley. How can I remember those things ? 

Mr. Halley. You got the books for the parole officer. 

Mr. DeLucia. For myself, too. 

Mr. Halley. That is w^hat they told you when you were in prison, to 
keep your money in casli and keep your accounts in your head. 

Mr. DeLucia. Cash all the time. That is the best. 

Mr. Halley. And your books in the head ? 

Mr. DeLucia. You want me to tell you the truth, so I am telling 

you. 

Mr. Halley. Now, tell me what you did with all the cash. 

Mr. DeLucia. There you are. 

Mr. Halley. No ; there I ain't. 

Mr. DeLucia. I spent the money for living. 

Mr. Halkey. $130,000. Where 'is the other $230,000 in 3 years? 

Mr. DeLucia. $230,000 ? 

Mr. Halley. Take a piece of paper and a pencil and do your own 
arithmetic. 1 will write it for you. It is very simple arithmetic. 
$300,000 you had in the box in cash. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. $80,000 you got from Bennett. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. $11,000 you got from the bank. 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. $391,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. $120,000 you spent on the farm; $271,000 you spent 
some other place. 

Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that on the farm. 

Mr. Halley. All right, you have $40,000 left. 

Mr. DeLucia. No, I spent more than that on the farm. 

Mr. Halley. So let's say you have $45,000 left. 

Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that on the farm. 

The Chairmax. $130,000 is what the books show, as I remember. 

Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that. 

The Chairman. You have to account for $271,000 less $45,000. 
That means $225,000. 

Mr. DeLucia. I spent more than that on the farm, Mr. Halley. 

The Chairman. What did you spend on the farm then? Tell us. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. Senator. I was figuring as long as it 
was on the books out there, I didn't have to explain anything. 

The Chairman. The books show only $125,000 or $130,000 you 
spent somewhere along there, don't they, Mr. Robinson ? 

Mr. Halley. Wliat are vour living expenses? You say about 
$60,000 for the 3 years. 



240 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. It might be something like $70,000 
or $80,000 for the 3 years. 

Mr. Halley. All right. Is it your testimony here under oath that 
everything in excess of $80,000 went into the farm ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Oh, I don't know that. I w^ouldn't say that. 

Mr. Halley. You better say something. You have to give us your 
best answer. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. You have the books there. Call my 
bookkeeper.. 

Mr. Halley. Where did the money go? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is all, the farm and the house. 

Mr. Halley. You see there is one disadvantage about all these cash 
deals that you like, and that is the books don't explain everything. 
Cash is something that is in your pocket. You testified under oath 
that you had over this period of 3 years in your pocket in cash money 
$391,000, and this committee wants to find out where that money went. 
You said about $80,000 went for living expenses. 

Mr. DeLucia. About that. 

Mr. Halley. Where did the rest go ? Let's say $90,000 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Would be a lot to spend. That is about $600 a week, 
just to live. On the farm you grow- your own food, you have no rent, 
you own your own car. I don't know what you spent $600 a week for 
as a respectable farmer. 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know what to tell you, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Please tell me. 

Mr. DeLucia. Please, I don't know what to tell you. I tried to 
give the best explanation I could. 

Mr. Halley. That is a very unsatisfactory answer. 

Mr. DeLucia. I am sorry, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Have you no explanation for what became of the 
$391,000? 

Mr. DeLucia. Outside of what I have given you. 

Mr. Halley. No other explanation ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You do not now want to take the opportunity which 
I am now offering you to explain what happened to $391,000? 

Mr. DeLucia. It is all there. 

Mr. Halley. It is all where ? 

Mr. DeLucia. In the books and all. 

Mr. Halley, You stand on whatever the books show? 

Mr. DeLucia. The books show whatever my expense was, 

Mr. Halley. And whatever your testimony is ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You have no further explanation? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

INIr. Halley. Now. Mr. Ricca, when you arranged for your parole 
who was your lawyer? 

Mr. DeLucia. I didn't have no lawyer. 

Mr. Halley. Who handled it ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I found out that Mr. Dillon was the man on the 
parole board. All I know is that when you go in the penitentiary the 
warden calls you in. They have a board, they have an examining 
board, they have so many. You go through for 30 days a lot of riga- 



ORGANIZED CRIME I^^ INTERSTATE COMMERCE 241 

marole there. Tlie warden tells you, "I don't care who you are or what 
you have done or whatever race, you are only number so and so. 1 
didn't put you in here. All I want you to do is not to cause me 
trouble, if you don't cause me trouble and keep your nose clean" — 
that is what they tell you— "at the time for parole I will put a good 
word in for you'with the parole. I will recommend you for parole." 
That I did, and when I got out I think I earned that, because I was 
Paul DeLucia, I can get the right like anybody else did, can't I? 
Mr. Hallet. Why did you have to hire Mr. Dillon ? 
Mr. DeLucia. I did not. After I come out I find out that Mr. 
Dillon was instrumental and went to see the parole board and all 
that. 

The Chairman. Did you see him before you got out ? 
Mr. DeLucia. No, Senator. 

The Chairman. Who acted for you in getting Mr. Dillon? 
Mr. DeLucia. I understand Mr. Campugna was instrumental to 
see Mr. Dillon in behalf of all of us. 

The Chairman. How much did you pay Mr. Dillon ? 
Mr. DeLucia. I paid $5,000. 

The Chairman. Who else did you pay ? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is all. 

The Chairman. You didn't pay any other lawyer, no accountant, 
nobody else at all for your parole ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you pay Mr. Dillon, by check or cash? 

Mr. DeLucia. No ; I sent the money to Louis Campagna. 

The Chairman. You gave $5,000 in cash to Louis Campagna ? 

:Mr. DeLucia. Yes. He sent a cashier's check. It all came out in 
the congressional hearing. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

Mr. Halley. Did you have Maury Hughes for a lawyer ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Hallet. What did he have to do with your parole ? 

Mr. DeLucia. He didn't have anything to do as far as I am con- 
cerned. . 

Mr. Halley. What did he have to do with having the indictment 
dismissed in New York? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know anything about that. 

Mr. Halley. Who paid Maury Hughes ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I don't know. 

The CHAIR3IAN. Did you pay him anything? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever meet Dillon ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; I saw him over at the hearing. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him anywhere else ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Maury Hughes? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You never saw Maury Hughes? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

]Mr. Halley. You never saw him in your whole life? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. No other questions. 



242 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. DeLiicia, did you ever do any favors for Mr. 
Bennett? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. None at all ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No. 

Mr. Robinson. When you were visited by Mr. Bernstein and Ac- 
cardo in prison, did you carry on a conversation in Italian with Mr. 
Accardo ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, no. 

Mr. Robinson. Was the entire conversation between the three of 
you in Eno;lish ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Tliere was a guard there at all times. 

Mr. Robinson. You did not speak in Italian ? 

Mr. DeLucia. No, Mr. Robinson. 

Mr. Robinson. Wliat was the purpose of Mr. Accardo's coming 
there ? 

Mr. DeLucia. I told you, I wanted to talk to Bernstein about it, and 
that is how Joe came over there. 

Mr. Robinson. Was Mr. Accardo present all the time during the 
conversation ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes ; he was there while "we were talking. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he talk to Mr, Campagna ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes, 

Mr. Robinson. During the time that he was visiting there? 

Mr. DeLucia. That is right. They were both together. 

The Chairman. Have you found out who put up that money to pay 
your income tax liability ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Not yet, Senator. 

The Chairman, Are you making inquiry about it since we saw you? 

Mr, DeLucia, I haven't made any inquiry, I figured they would 
come over and tell me themselves. 

The Chairman, Have you found out yet who killed Captain Drury ? 

Mr, DeLucia, No, sir. 

The Chairman. Where were you that night? 

Mr. DeLucia. I was home. 

The Chairman. Do you know Captain Drury ? 

Mv. DeLucia. Yes. 

The Chairman. Any other questions? 

Mr. Robinson. You say you knew Fillichio, and he is a neighbor 
of yours? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You know him quite well ? 

Mr. DeLucia. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. He is in the liquor business ? 

Mr, DeLucia, Yes, 

Mr, Robinson, Why didn't you ask him for the loan ? 

Mr, DeLuci-a, Why should I ask him ? 

Mr, Robinson, I am asking you. He is a good friend of yours. 
Why didn't you ask him? 

Mr, DeLucia, I figured he might need money himself. He has so 
many stores, or something like that. 

The Chairman, All right. Anything else? All right, Mr, De- 
Lucia, if we want you again we will get in touch with you. 

Mr, DeLucia, Yes. Senator. 



ORGAI^IZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 243 

rURTHEH TESTIMONY OF JOHN S. BOYLE, STATE'S ATTORNEY, 

COOK COUNTY. ILL. 

Mr. Halley. I would like to state for the record that Mr. Kerner 
informed me— Mr. Boyle was modest about it— that it was Mr. Boyle 
who gave him the information which he conveyed to us about the 
whereabouts of Matt Capone who was discovered in San Diego under 
the name of Hunter. Mr. Boyle's office got that information and 
promptly conveyed it through Mr. Kerner to us. 

The Chairman. We appreciate that very much, Mr. Boyle. 

Mr. Boyle. You are entirely welcome, sir. 

Yon asked me to bring in any records I had on this matter, and 
I have them here. 

Mr. Halley. The committee will take them, Mr. Boyle. 

Mr. Boyle. Very well. , 

(The records were identified as exhibit No. 28, and were returned to 
witness after analysis by the committee. ) 

The Chairman. Is there any information you want to ask about 
the records ? 

Mr. Halley. We will take a quick look. 

Mr. Boyle. There isn't much in there, I will be frank with you. 

Mr. Halley. I have just one question, Mr. Boyle. Did you work 
up the printed material on this form contract or is that something 
they had ? 

Mr. Boyle. Thev had that ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. You have here Trans-American Publishnig News 
Service, application for special contract services, a printed form. Is 
that something thev had when thev came to you or that you worked up? 

Mr. Boyle. Thfit is what they had. Another thing I did in this 
case, I wrote a brief for them on the legality of the wire service, but 
I don't know where that brief is. I will have to dig it up. I noticed 
that in one of my letters where they took out some phones. I wrote 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever get a list of the complete shareholdei^s ? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; l\lid not. They didn't give me any such thing. 

The Chairman. The only person you did business with m this 
thing was Mr. Burns ? 

Mr. Boyle. No. I said yesterday Mr. O'Hara also came into my 
office. As I recall now after looking at the files, he came in several times. 

The Chairman. Mr. Burns was the president, and who was Mr. 
O'Hara? 

Mr. Boy-le. He was an officer. As I recall it to check, follow up on 
this corporation form there. It has all the information. 

The Chairman. i\Ir. O'Hara was the secretary. 

Mr. Boyle. He was the secretary and Mr. Burns was the president. 

Mr. Robinson. Pat Burns was the president first and then Andrew 
succeeded him — the son succeeded him. 

The Chair^ian. You did do an extensive brief on the legality of the 
wire service? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes ; I did. I notice in one of my letters I said I would 
send a copy. I will have to check and find the brief. 

The Chairman. That is all right. Who is O'Keefe and O'Brien? 

Mr. Boyle. They evidently represented them before. 



244 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. I see also you have sent us tlie statement of William 
Brantman and Thomas Connelly. 

Mr. Boyle. Yesterday I told you I had a statement of Kutner and 
I checked my office yesterday afternoon. I did not take a written 
statement from Kutner. Ed Greene and I sat in and talked to him, 
but I did take a written statement from Connelly and from Brantman. 
I could check that corporation service there and find out all the other 
information you might need if you want me to have that tile back. I 
can follow it up for you. 

The Chairman. The only thing I see in here of any importance is 
the application for special contract service. 

Mr. Boyle. You can find out who those people are by checking that. 

The Chairman. Do you know how many people they did service f or 
at that time? 

Mr. Boyle. No. As I recall it now — I was a little hazy yesterday 
because I was sort of hit w^ith this unexpectedly and I didn't have my 
file with me — but I don't know more than one or two groups of persons 
who came in ; and if they did, I have a copy of it there. I don't think 
they had many customers. That is probably why they went out of 
business. I brought the complete file. That is some sort of personal 
matter of one of these fellows — whether it was O'Hara or whether it 
was Burns, I don't know — about some petition they wanted in the sani- 
tary district, about some nuisance. It applied to them personally, 
but I took the file as it was and took nothing out of it. I didn't want 
even to remove that. It has nothing to do with the service at all. 

The Chairman. He is trying to abate a nuisance apparently. 

Mr. Boyle. Adjoining his home. 

The Chairman. A pig farm. 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. 

The Chairman. Were you still representing Trans-American wliea 
it ceased to do business ? 

Mr. Boyle. I think I was no longer representing them about 2 
weeks before they ceased to do business. I did not close up the col'- 
poration. I had nothing to do with that. 

The Chairman. I mean, how did you happen to stop representing 
them at the time you did ? 

Mr. Boyle. As I recall it, they called me up and said they were 
going broke and they were going to fold up. The next thing I saw 
something in the newspaper where they had dissolved the corpora- 
tion and that w^as the end of it. 

The Chairman. But j^ou didn't dissolve the corporation ? 

Mr. Boyle. No ; I did not. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley, I think that contract is the only thing 
I see of any importance. 

Mr. Boyle. Frankly, as I look back on it now I realize they didn't 
give me much information as to the workings of the corporation and 
who the officers were. They didn't give you the books and records. 

Mr. Halley. They gave you a quick deal. 

Mr. Boyle. What do you mean by quick deal ? 

Mr. Halley. They sort of shuffled the cards \evy fast so you couldn't 
get the facts. 

Mr. Boyle. Clients frequently do that. They come in and gloss 
over the facts, and unless there is some reason for suspicion you just 
don't get the facts from them. It is quite prevalent. 



OEGAA'IZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 245 

The Chairman. You never did keep their corporate books or 
records ? 

Mr. Boyle. No. They had an auditor. 

Mr. Robinson. I notice a letter here, Mr. Boyle, which you sent to 
the Corporation Trust Co., April 11, 1947, asking that since you repre- 
sented the company they send to you all communications regarding 
the corporation. 

Mr. Boyle. You see they were registered evidently as registered 
agents in Delaware, which is where they operated, and then when they 
got a notice I told tliem to send it to me, notice of time being due to 
file papers. But that corporation organization can give you more 
information I imagine because they must have received all the neces- 
sary information. 

The Chairman. Anything else i 

Mr. Halley. No. 

The Chairman. Mr. Boyle, what was the name of that chief of 
police that you prosecuted out at Calumet City? 

INlr. Boyle. I tliink it is Wolinski, or some sort of name like that. 
I can get it for you. 

The Chairman. We have it in the record. 

Mr. B0YT.E. I don't think I gave you the correct name yesterday. 
I gave you the name of the chief of police of Cicero. 

The Chairman. What approximately is the man's name at Calumet 

Citv ( 

Mr. Boyle. I think it is Wolinski. I could get it on the telephone. 

The Chairman. Was he the one that was tried and the jury let 
him off( 

Mr. Boyle. That is right. 

The Chairman. He is their chief of police out there now ? 

Mr. Boyle. I understand he is. I think he is. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Some fellows told some of our staff that a place 
was operating wide open out there and they went out and saw for 
themselves last night and found that it was. We are not trying to 
raid or close up local places. It was just as a matter of information. 

Mr. Boyle. Where was it ? 

The Chairman. I don't know. 

Mr. Boyle. What they call the strip ? 

Mr. Halley'. The Show Bar. 

Mr. Boyle. We have closed a lot of those places and have been 
active out there. In fact, we had the mayor before our grand jury 
also. The grand jury didn't indict the mayor. He was very stub- 
born. He stood up there and said that he needed the money froni 
these saloons at $400 a year that they paid, he needed that money in 
order to operate the town, to pay the fire and police departments, to pay 
their salaries. I don't know why they didn't indict him. 

Mr. Halley'. I am curious: Were you going before the grand jury 
on charges of gambling or just general violations ? 

Mr. Boyle. Malfeasance in office. That is what we indicted them 
for. for not suppressing gambling. 

Mr. Halley-. Was it gambling or simply stripping? 

Mr. Boyle. Gambling and strip-tease places and dice games and 
everything else — an accumulation of evidence, you see. 

Mr. Halley. You were able to get evidence of dice games running 
wide open at that time? 



246 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Boyle. Yes; from our investigators, and they testified. 

Mr. Halley. There seems to be no trouble picking up that evidence 
out there. 

The Chairman. What does the sheriff do about it out tliere? Does 
he ever close up any of those places? 

Mr. Boyle. Not tliat I know of. 

The Chairman. Is it his duty to do that? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes; it is his duty to close them up. 

The Chairman. This is true whether they are inside the city limits 
or not ? 

Mr. Boyle. It doesn't make any difference. He has adopted the 
attitude that in an incorporated village he doesn't have jurisdiction, 
but he is the main enforcing officer of our county, the main law- 
enforcement officer. When I told you j^esterday about having 76 
police officers in my office, I think you may have gotten an erroneous- 
idea of what those police officers do. They work on criminal cases 
that are pending in the criminal court after indictments are returned. 
They go out and get evidence. They bring in witnesses and serve 
subpenas. They are very busy out there. I don't want you to get 
the impression that 76 men have nothing to do but run out into the 
county. 

Mr. White. Do you find anv evidence of prostitution in Calumet 
City? 

Mr. Boyle. It was a general picture of prostitution. We even had 
evidence in the Calumet City case of crookedness. We figured the 
jury might not wan.t to convict the man on gambling, but if we 
proved crookedness they might get mad enough to indict him. Tli^y 
were calibrated dice. Even despite that thev didn't indict him. 
We had two of our top prosecutors on the case. The only defense 
they offered was character witnesses, a bunch of character witnesses 
anci the defendant's own testimony. I could get you a transcript of 
that if you want it which shows the whole picture out there. If it is 
enough I will give 3'ou the transcript on the Calumet City case. 

The Chairman. That is all riglit. We just need the general out- 
line. You charged this chief of ]:)olice with malfeasance in office. 

Mr. Boyle. Nonfeasance under our statute. Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. What was the mayor charged with before the 
grand jury. 

Mr. Boyle. He was just brought in and questioned. He was sub- 
penaed before the grand jury but the grand jury didn't indict him. 
The grand jury has the power of indicting or not indicting. He 
admitted there was gambling out there and he admitted there were 
shows, and he admitted all these things. 

The Chairman. But he said he needed the revenue ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. He was cold about it, brought in the books of 
the city and said, "This is my condition here. I need the $400 a 
year from these taverns. Unless I get it the tax rates will treble."^ 

Mr. Halley. It is discouraging, I should think, to try to enforce 
the law under such conditions. 

The Chairman, What is the mayor's name? 

Mr. Boyle. Kominski. Understand the geographical set-up there. 
That is one street, the end street. On the east side of of the street 
is Hammond, Ind., on the west side is Calumet City. 111. I under- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 247 

stand that most of their trade comes from tliese industrial towns like 
Hammond, Indian Harbor, and places like that. 

The Chairmax. How large a force does the sheriff have, do you 
know ? 

Mr. Boyle. It is over 100, and they are police officers in uniform. 
They have cars and they patrol the county. The other day we had 
to make an arrest up at a place called Ralph's Place, a notorious 
place up north. I took their liquor license away from them through 
the count}' board and also the State rescinded their liquor license. 
Then the crime commission told us that they were still selling 
liquor there. We went up and made an arrest and that case is com- 
ing up next week, arrest for selling liquor without a liquor license. 
Of course we understand there is a gambling place in the back, 
but our fellows can't get in, and the crime commission men can't 
get in, and the shferiff says he can't get in. 

Mr. White. What is the address i 

Mr. Boyle. I can give it to you. It is Ralph's Place. 

Mr, Devereux. Waukegan Road and Northfield township. 

The Chairman. We don't want you pushing any doors in. 

Mr. Boyle. I would like to have him try some of these places 
in this county. They really have tightened up and toughened up so 
it is difficult for any stranger to get in. They are very careful. The 
Lumber Gardens, we put them out of business. That was a notorious 
])lace in Melrose Park. 

Mr. Halley. Would you be willing to elaborate on whether the 
sheriff has been doing his duty ? 

Mr. Boyle. Why don't you ask him how many slot machines 
he destroyed since we went out to get them, since November 1949. 
I don't know of any. 

The Chairman. He said he had gotten 

Mr. Halley. Fourteen prior to that. 

Mr. Boyle. Why did he quit ? 

Mr. Halley. Did he just quit? 

Mr. Boyle. It looks that way. I don't know of any machines 
he picked up. 

The Chairman. When did you start? 

Mr. Boyle. November 1, 19-19. He got 500 — whatever the num- 
ber was I told you yesterday — 560-some machines. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any evidence whatsoever that his depu- 
ties are being corrupted in any way ? 

Mr. Boyle. There was a lieutenant by the name of Gleason up 
on the North Side, I don't think he is with them any longer, but 
he raised the devil with my fellows for coming out there and bothering 
those gambling places and slot machines. We had quite an argument 
about it when he was in the witness chair. 

The Chairman. What is his name? 

Mr. Boyle. I think his name is Lieutenant Gleason After all, let's 
be practical about this thing. If you want to stop gambling in the 
country towns or any other place, all you have to do is put a police- 
man at the front door and that will stop them from coming or going 
and they will be out of business in a week. 

Mr. Halley. You know the practical situation here. He says his 
force is 129 men, I think, mainly for road patrol, and that they don't 
have time for investigative work. 



24S ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Boyle. That is the same argument the chief of police of Cahi 
met City gives, that he needs his })olice officers for school crossings. 
They all need them for something except the suppression of gambling. 
They all need them for something else. 

Mr. Halley. For your information, we subpenaed an officer who 
was sitting in the room about as far from the gambling table as you 
are from me. 

Mr. Boyle. We have evidence that the sheriff's police have been 
parked in front of gambling places. 

]Mr. Halley. This wasn't the sheriff's men. 

Mr. Boyle. I am talking about the sheriff's men. We have evidence 
that they have parked in front of places and we called that to his at- 
tention, giving him the license number of the car, and the number of 
the car, ])arked in front of gambling places. In fact we had one in- 
stance where the sheriff's men were directing the persons into the 
gambling place. 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Boyle, do you think the police officials in the 
city of Chicago have been as efficient in that respect as the sheriff 
may be ? 

Mr. Boyle. That is a difficult (luestion to answer. As I told you, 
I do not go into the city of Chicago because I have enough to do in 
the country towns and I have faith in Mayov Kennelly nnd I am sure 
you have too. He has suppressed a great deal of gambling. There 
are no open rooms that I know of. By that I mean sheets and loud- 
speakers and all that sort of thing. I think a lot of your gambling 
is by telephone. I understand that it is one of those hit-and-run 
ideas where yon walk in and make a bet or two and then you walk 
out. You don't hang around tliere. There used to be big rooms. You 
know, as background, there was a fellow here by the name of Skid- 
more some years ago, and this is common knowledge, and each gam- 
bling place would pay him so nuich a month to operate. This was 
before Mayor Kennelly came in. He was sentenced to the peniten- 
tiary on an income-tax violation. Kerner took care of him. But 
tliat doesn't exist today. The ward committeemen have been stripped 
of their power today, believe me. I don't know whether that ex- 
plains it to you the way — frankly, he has been cursed and damned by 
politicians around here, the old-line politicians, because they feel he 
has taken their power away from them. They can't transfer police 
captains, which is right, of course. 

Mr. Halley. You mentioned one instance in wliich the sheriff's 
deputies were found to be directing patrons to a gambling house. 

Mr. Boy^le. I can get that information for yon. I gave him that 
information. I w^rote him a letter to that effect and told him the 
license number of the car and everything else. 

The Chairman. Will you get that letter ? 

Mr. Boyle. Yes. I had it here yesterday but I didn't think to turn 
it over to you. 

Mr. Halley. What reply did you get from the sheriff specifically 
on the one ? 

Mr. Boyle. Here I am being vague again. I don't like to be that 
way. I would like to get all my records and bring them in here and 
show you what we have done. 

Mr. Halley. I am sorry to take so much of your time bringing you 
back and forth. 



O'RGAOTZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249 

Mr Boyle. There is nothing more important than this. 

Mr. Halley. It is very helpful Thank you. 

Mr Boyle. Of course, as the mayor said yesterday, it you didn t 
have people who would bet, you wouldn't have any bookies, ihey 
would starve to death. You have to bring the morals of the people 

"^ThJ Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Boyle. If you would 
get us that detailed information. 
Mr. Boyle. I will get it all for you. 
The Chairman. Thank you. . 

Now Mrs. Fischetti, will you hold up your right hand, btand up, 
please Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this com- 
mittee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE FISCHETTI, MIAMI BEACH, FLA.; 
ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES E. FORD, ATTORNEY, WASHING- 
TON, D. C. 

Mrs. Fischetti. I do. • • • i 9 

The Chairman. Mr. Ford, what are you mitials ^ , ^ ^ ^. , , ^^ , 
Mr. Ford. Charles E. Ford, Columbian Building, 416 b itth street 
NW., Washington, D. C. ^^^ ^ . ^ „ 

The Chairman. 416 Fifth Street NW., Washington, D. C. 
All right, Mr. Robinson. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you state your name, please. 
Mrs. Fischetti. Mrs. Anne Fischetti. 
Mr. Robinson. Where do you reside? 

Mrs. Fischetti. At 6475 Allison Road m Miami Beach, J^ la. 
Mr. Robinson. Is that your permanent residence? 
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that your legal residence i 
Mrs. Fischetti. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let's all talk a little louder so we can hear. 
Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other residence address? 
Mrs. Fischetti. I do not. • m • 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any home or place ot residence m L.I11- 

cago? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I do not. 

Mr. Robinson. What is your husband's name? 1 ou are married i 

Mrs. Fischetti. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What is your husband's name « 

Mrs. Fischetti. Charles. . . tit t^- i 4.^- 9 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you been married, Mrs. b ischetti i 

Mrs. FiscHETTL December of 1931. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you been living m b lorida i 

Mrs. Fischetti. Since 1939. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you last see your husband? 

Mrs Fischetti. I refuse to answ^er that because of my marital 
status as the wife of Charles Fischetti and because the answer may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. What was the question ? 

(The pending question and the answer were read by the reporter.) 

68958 — 51— pt. 5 17 



250 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Tlie Chairman. When did you last see your husband, Charles Fis- 
chetti ? The chairman will restate the question : When did you last 
see your husband, Charles Fischetti ? 
What is your answer, Mrs. Fischetti ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that because of my marital status 
as the wife of Charles Fischetti and because the answer may tend to 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. You are here represented by Mr. Ford? 
Mrs. Fischetti. That is correct. 

The Chairman. First, the chairman directs you to answer the ques- 
tion. The chairman states to you that on the basis shown you have 
no right not to answer the question. Do you refuse to answer the 
question ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I believe I have the right. 

The Chairman. I mean do you refuse to answer notwithstanding 
the fact that the chairman orders you to answer? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I do because I believe I have the right and the 
privilege. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Ford, at this point we ask you on what 
ground or m wliat connection you feel that this Avould incriminate 
Mrs. Fischetti. 

Mr. Ford. I believe the answer may tend, first, on the ground of 
privilege, which I believe is established both in the District of Co- 
lumbia, m this State, by the Supreme Court of the United States, in 
cases both civil and criminal. I have a couple of citations if you 
wish me to cite them, in my pocket. One was a probate case in the 
Supreme Court of the United States. It was the taking of a deposi- 
tion. It wasn't a suit against anyone. That is, it was neither a suit 
against a husband or wife. They were not parties to the litigation. 
The Chairman. That is, giving any information even about when 
you last saw your spouse, your husband ? 
Mr. Ford. That is right. 
The Chairman. Is that true ? 
Mr. Ford. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you have some contention about what Federal 
offense this answer would incriminate Mrs. Fischetti ? 

Mr^FoRD. Many. First, the general conspiracy statute of our Fed- 
eral Crovernment. Secondly, the fact that it may lead to raising the 
question of whether or not a person has committed a State offeiSe as 
soon as they cut across the State line. Of course they may become 
guilty of a Federal offense by the mere leaving of the jurisdiction. 
There are many, yes, sir. Those two I can recall offhand. 
Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question. 
The Chairman. We are going to have to continue this over until 
after lunch. Unfortunately, I have an engagement to speak to the 
Executives Club, so I think that during the recess you and the staff and 
Mr. Ford might look at any citations that he has. 

Mr. Halley. I would like a written list of tlie citations at this time. 

,The Chaikman. We will recess until 1:45, at which time wte 

will resume, and we will continue with your testimony, Mrs. Fischetti. 

In the meantime, you will show Mr. Halley and ^Ir. Robinson your 

brief. We will excuse you now, Mrs. Fischetti. 

Mr. Ford. Until what time? 



O'RGAN'IZEO CRIME VN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 251 

The Chairman. Until 15 minutes of 2 ; 1 : 45. 

Mr. Ford. May she sit here until I get through so I can accompany 

her away from here? . • .i i i a/t 

The Chairman. Yes, indeed. You may sit m the back, Mrs. 

Fischetti. . , ^■^ ^ ak 

(Whereupon, at 11 : 35 a. m. the committee recessed until 1 : 15 p. m. 

the same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The Chairman. The committee will be in order. 

Mr. Halley. Mrs. Fischetti, will you come up, please i 

FURTHEE TESTIMONY OF MES. ANNE FISCHETTI, MIAMI BEACH, 
FLA.; ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES E. FORD, ATTORNEY, WASH- 
INGTON, D. C. 

The Chairman. The committee will now come to order. 
Will you read the last proceedings, Mr. Eeporter ? 
Mrs. Fischetti and Mr. Ford, counsel for the committee will ask other 
questions, and the chairman will rule out any question that he does not 

think is proper. ,-.--, i ^ . n 

Let the record show that any question that I do not rule out or tell 
the witness not to answer, she is ordered to answer. 

It is understood that you are ordered to answer any question that I 
do not withdraw from the witness myself. 

Mr. Ford. I think she understands that. 

The Chairman. You understand? 

Mr. Ford. Yes, I understand. 

The Chairman. Very well, Mr. Eobinson and Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Robinson. Mrs. Fischetti, do you have any children ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I do not. . . 

Mr. Robinson. Does your liusband maintain an apartment m Chi- 
cago ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that, because of my marital 
status as the wife of Charles Fischetti, and my knowledge that I may 
have is confidential, and I may tend to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Robinson. Mrs. Fischetti, do you make frequent trips between 
Florida and Chicago? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I do not. 

Mr. Robinson. When was the last time you were in Chicago? 

Mrs. Fischetti. In the spring of 1945. 

Mr. Robinson. You have not been in Chicago since that time ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I have not. . ^. 

Mr. Robinson. Does your husband maintain an apartment m Chi- 
cago ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. You asked me that, Mr. Robinson. 

Mr. Robinson. You did not answer that question. 

Mrs. Fischetti. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. May the record clearly show, Mrs. Fischetti, you un- 
derstand that the chairman orders you to answer that question? 

Mrs. Fischetti. Yes, I understand. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Ford, you understand that that couldn't possibly 
be a confidential matter. 



252 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IXITERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Ford. No, I don't understand that. 

Mr. Halley. The mere question as to whether Mr. Fischetti main- 
tains an apartinent in Chicago, you would say is a confidential matter? 

Mr.b ORD. That is correct, between her and him, yes. Of course, she 
bases it on two grounds, as you recall. 

The Chairman. Yes. She stated the grounds. There is no use 
arguing with Mr. Ford back and forth. Let us make our record 

Mrs. Fischetti. May I say something to Mr. Ford, please ? 

The Chairman. Speak to him if you wish. 

(Witness and Mr. Ford conferring.) 

Mr. Robinson. How many brothers does your husband have, Mrs 
Fischetti ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. Two. I am sorry, three. 
Mr. Robinson. What are their names? 
Mrs. Fischetti. Rocco, Jose])h, and Nicholas. 
Mr. Robinson. Where does Rocco live ? 
Mrs. Fischetti. I believe he lives here in Chicago. 
Mr. Robinson. At what address ? 
Mrs. Fischetti. I think 3100 North Sheridan. 
Mr. Robinson. Is that a home or an apartment house ? 
Mrs. Fischetti. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know whether Rocco lives in a residen- 
tial home or in an apartment house ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I think I have heard it is an apartment house 

JNIr. Robinson. Who told you that ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously 

Mr. Robinson. What is the other brother's name ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. Joseph. 

Mr. Robinson. Where does he live ? 

Mrs. FiscHEiTi. He stays part of the time at my home in Florida, 
ihe rest of the time, I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Does Rocco stay at your home at times, in Florida « 

Mrs. Fischetti. He does not. 

Mr. Robinson. Has he ever visited there ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How frequently does he visit there ? 

Mrs. FiscHEiTi. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Robinson. Does Joseph visit there? You say he stays there 
at times with you ? ^ j 

Mrs. Fischetti. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What business is Rocco in ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously 

The Chairman. We will let the record show again that the chair- 
man orders you to answer, but you refuse to answer, is that correct? 
Wait ]ust a minute. This question, and any others that are put to 
the witness, which I allow to be put to the witness, she is ordered 
to answer That is understood, is it not? You understand that, Mrs. 
i^ ischetti ? ' 

Mrs. Fischetti. Yes. May I say something to Mr. Ford ? 
ihe Chapman. You may consult with your attorney whenever 
you wish. "^ 



ORGA^TIZEO CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 253 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 

Mrs. FisCHETTi. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You do not know what? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. What business Rocco is in. 

Mr. Robinson. Wliat business is Joseph in? 

ISIrs. FiscHETTi. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Is the home in Florida in your name ? 

Mrs. FISCHETTI. Yes, it is. . i u i^ 9 

Mr. Robinson. Solely in your name, not m your husband s name i 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. No, my name. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you owned it? 

]Mrs. FiscHETTi. Eleven years. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you pay for it? 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) ^ . , 

Mrs. FISCHETTI. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously 

stated. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you employ any help at that home ? 

Mrs. FiscHETiT. I do. 

Mr. Robinson. How many do you employ? 

Mrs FiscHETTi. Well, I employ a cook part of the year, and i 
employ a— [witness and counsel conferring]— part-time laundress. 

Mr. Robinson. What do you pay them? , 

Jklrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously 

stated 

Mr. Robinson. What does it cost you, approximately, a year to 

run your household ? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Robinson. Are you employed ? 

:Mrs. FiscHETTi. I am not. , . , , . ^ -, k 9 

Mr. Robinson. Have you been employed m the past 10 or 15 years « 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I have not. 

INIr. Robinson. You have no source of income that you earn Dy 
reason of your own ability ? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. • t-i -j 9 

Mr Robinson. Whom do you entertain at your home in if lorida ? 

Mrs. FiscHETiT. I refuse to answer that, on the grounds previously 

stated, 

Mr.RoBiNsoN. Do you know Anthony Accardo? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Virginia Hill? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I do not. , 

Mr. Robinson. You have never met her at any time i 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. Never. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you make frequent telephone calls from youi 

home to Chicago ? 

:Mrs. FiscHETii. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you own a yacht ? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. . 

Mr. Robinson. Do you spend any time on a yacht m l^loriclaJ 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. 1 • 171 • i > 

Mr Robinson. Have you ever been on any sailing vessel m 1^ londa « 

^Irs. FISCHETTI. I refuse to answer that on the grounds previously 

stated. 



254 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. What do you pay by way of toll calls, approximately, 
a year ? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you make any expenditures for the operation 
of any yacht or sailing vessel or motorboat in Florida ? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I deline to answer that. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Louis Campagna or Mrs. Campagna ? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I refuse to answer that, on the grounds previously 
stated. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether or not your husband fre- 
quently goes under a different name than Fischetti ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. I did not understand. 

Mrs. Fischetti. I decline to answer that. Senator, on the grounds 
previously stated. 

The Chairman. We will understand that all your refusals to answer 
are on the grounds previously stated. 

Mrs. Fischetti. Thank you. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you own any personal property, Mrs. Fischetti ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you last see Mr. Accardo ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Let us get on. 

Mr. Robinson. That is all I have. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Halley. No questions. 

The Chairman. I have just one or two, Mrs. Fischetti. Are you 
in any business with your husband? That is, do you have any part 
ownership of a business with your husband ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that. Senator. 

The Chairman. What businesses does your husband have? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer any questions concerning my 
husband, because I am his wife, and anything I may know is con- 
fidential. 

Mr. Halley. You understand that the committee has advised you 
that that is not the law ? 

Tlie Chairman. That is all right. They understand. 

Mrs. Fischetti. Yes, but I believe ' 

The Chairman. That is all right. We have an understanding about 
that. 

Was the money for the purchase of the home given to you by Mr. 
Fischetti, or did he purchase it for you ? 

Mrs. FiscHETT'i. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Do you know where Rocco Fischetti is? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I do not. 

The Chairman. Where Joseph Fischetti is ? 

Mrs. FiscHE'TTi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Where Nicholas Fischetti is ? 

Mrs. Fischetti." I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Is your husband in partnership with any of his 
brothers in any business ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Do you know where the Vernon Country Club is ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I do not. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 255 

The Chairman. The Vernon Club? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I do not. , , -, - ,. t. 

The Chairman. Do you know if your husband owns any interest 

in the Vernon Club ? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I don't. 

The Chairman. You say you do not know i 

Mrs. FISCHETTI. Well, 1 refuse to answer any questions concerning 
mv husband, Senator. 

The Chairman. Do you refuse to answer that question, whether 
you know whether he owns any part of the Vernon Club ? 

Mrs. FISCHETTI. Yes. ,r -r. l ^^ 9 

The Chairman. Where did you first know ]Mr. Ford, your attorney? 

Mrs. FISCHETTI. He is an old family friend of many years stand- 
ing, of mv family. , , . ^ v i 

The Chairman. Did your husband contact him for you, or did you 

contact him ? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I did. 

The Chairman. He practices law in Washington? 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. Yes. • ^, • o 

The Chairman. Who is your husband s attorney here m Chicago i 

Mrs. FiscHETTi. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Who is your husband's attorney m Miami i 

Mrs. Fischetti. I don't believe he has any. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he has one or not ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. No, I don't. -, . , , ^ q 

The Chairman. Where does your husband keep his bank account i 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Where do you keep your bank account? 

Mrs. FiscHET-ri. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Do you have a bank account ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Has your husband ever been arrested ? 

Mrs. Fischetti. I refuse to answer any question concerning my hus- 
band. ^ ^ , , . , 

The Chairman. Do you know whether there are any public records 
as to whether your husband has ever been arrested and convicted ? 

Mrs. FisciiiKTTi. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. :Mrs. Fischetti— I think I might say this to you, 
too, Mr. Ford— the committee is only interested in trying to get the 
facts which we feel, under our Senate resolution, we are entitled to 
fret. From the testimonv here, in the opinion of the chairman, and 
the refusal to answer, the complete unwillingness on the part of the 
witness to give us information that we feel we are entitled to is quite 
apparent. What will be done in this matter will be decided, of course, 
by the whole committee. It may be there will be other matters tomor- 
row that we will want to ask Mrs. Fischetti about ; so Mrs. Fischetti 
will remain under subpena to report back to the committee on to- 
morrow. , , , O 

Mr. Ford. Shall we report back here at 10 o'clock. Senator i 

The Chairman. I think if she got back by 11 o'clock, it would be 
all right. 

Mr. Ford. We shall be here. 

The Chahiman. All right. I regi-et the attitude you have taken. 
It is very uncooperative, and we will just have to see whose opinion is 
correct. 



256 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IKrTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Ford. I want to say we have a lot of respect for your opinion, 
Senator. 

The Chairman. I appreciate that, Mr. Ford. 

Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. You have not been sworn, have you ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. No, sir. 

The Chairman. INIr. Ghertz, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
3^ou will give this committee will be the truth, the wdiole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY A. GHERSCOVICH, ADMINISTRATIVE 
ASSISTANT AND PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, OFPICE OF STATE'S 
ATTORNEY FOR COOK COUNTY, ILL. 

The Chairman. Let us get at the point of this right quick. 

Mr. Gherscovich. My name is Anthony A. Ghertz. I am also 
known as Anthony A. Gherscovich. 

Mr. Halley. Your title ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I am administrative assistant, and also Mr. 
Boyle's private investigator. 

Mr. Halley. On Mr. Boyle's instructions, have you appeared here 
with certain records of the State's attorney's office relating to matters 
in the jurisdiction of the sheriff of Cook County? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I have. 

Mr. Halley. Will you state what records you have brought ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I have various records of letters that Mr. Boyle 
has sent to the sheriff of Cook County, and letters wdiich he has 
received. 

Mr. Halley. There is quite a batch of documents there. 

Mr. Gherscovich. I have a resume of the whole thing, if you want 
to see that. 

Mr. Halley. The committee had reference to a particular letter 
which Mr. Boyle wrote to the sheriff concerning a car belonging to one 
of the deputy sheriffs seen in front of a gambling place. Do you have 
that letter? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Yes, we have. We wrote a number of letters to 
the sheriff. That was on June 29. 

The Chairman. June 29, what year? 

Mr. Gherscovich. 1949. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have an answer from the sheriff on that? 
Perhaps we can save time. 

Mr. Gherscovich. Here it is. 

Mr. Halley. Did you personally observe a car of a deputy sheriff 
about which this letter of June 29 is written ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I did. On the date of that letter, I visited the 
place at Narragansett, 4416 Narragansett. 

Mr. Halley. On June 28, 1949 ? 

Mr. Ghersco\t[ch. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Was there a handbook operating there ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. There was a handbook operating. 

The Chairman. Where is that? Is that in any municipality or 
out in the country ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 257 

Mr. Gherscovich. It is Norwood Park Township, an unincorpo- 
rated area. n nr tj n^,r 

car parked, the license ""'"'f !' ^f^ff ^^.^'^.TikI ^^^^^^^ Sued to 
r^:;;!t^^reS;SBi:rshi"l3^rLiAdenStreet,Winnetka, 

"jlr. Hallbt. I notice yon didn't mention that in the letter to the 

'' mI'^Gherscovich. No. We checked that after we wrote the letter. 

mI- Ks^covioH.- The other depnty was Depnty Walter Little. 

^M^'haIe" Toffer in evidence the entire batch of letters so the 

committee can take any action It desires. , ., .. ^ ,0 and also 

The Chairman. That will be received as exhibit iNo. IJ, ana aiso 

'' (SXcm^enJr^Wd to .ere identified as exhibit No 29, and 
we -e retunied to the witness after analysis by the con.nn ee.) 

Mr. Halley. For present purposes will J^^^ take out a lettei ot 
September 9, 1949, relating to gambling m Calumet Cuy, and the 
reply of September 13, 1919 ? 

^. gS:rSrt{ro'f"se;te,nber 9, and the reply is Septem- 

Mr. Gherscovich. September 9. 

Mr. Halley. Can we have the entire file m evidence 

Mr. Gherscovich. I will give you the entire sheriff s hie. 

Mr. Halley. The entire file of letters. 

Mr. Gherscovich. All right, sir. ,..i fLof will 

Mr. Halley. Just put them back m the envelope, and that ^ill 

'llr' Gherscovich. Here is a letter of November 1. October 25, 
194^1 iSnaly went into Calumet City at 11:15 f night to ob- 
serve crap names, and I went into the Club Riptide and Club Eendez- 
vous a'ld sJnv crap i^ames in operation. At the saine time, I saw the 
IheHff's squad car, the sheriff of Cook County, License ^o. M-515o 
paXh While I was in town I investigated these places. And I 

"" iTll : 35^1 noticed two sheriff's men get in their squad car and 

leave Thev came from State Street. . ^j 

Mr. Halley. Did you have no authority to issue a warrant and 

"" Mr GHERscm-iCH. I was alone. We don't make a practice of going 
out and making raids alone. After we make an investigation e 
next night or a'couple of nights after that we go out and make the 

Mr. Halley. Did you do that? 

Mr Gherscovich. We did. We made numerous raids. The last 
raid at Calumet City was a week ago Friday. ,, 

Mr HvLLEY. Is there anything else you particulaHy want to call 
attention to, because the committee is trying to cover a lot of witnesses. 
We can study the file. 



258 ORGANIZED CRIMEi EST ITsTTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Ghekscovich. If yon study the file, it will ^ive you a good 
i-esume of the letters that we sent to the sheriff, and which we received 
from the sheriff. 

Back in March of 1949 and April 1949, 1 had occasion to go to 4817 
West Sixty-fifth Street, in Stickney Townsliip, and there I met sheriff's 
police out in front of the place, and saw them, and they stayed there 
until the races were over, and watched people coming out of the tavern. 

Mr. Halley. Did they have, a horse book in the tavern? Did you 
go in and look? 

Mr. Ghekscovich. A number of times I went in there. I couldn't 
go when the sheriff's men were in there. They wouldn't let me in. 
But I stood there and watched people go in. 

Another time— there is a letter we received on a deputy there. I 
talked to him about the people running a book, and he said "No." I 
went into the tavern and saw people in the tavern, and we made a sur- 
veillance of the place for about half an hour before, and counted 20 
people going m. I called attention to it, and said "20 people went in, 
and there are only 8 people in the tavern." I said, "Wliere did they 
disappear to?" He said, "There is nothing going on while you are 
here. ' I waited until after the races were over, and saw the people 
coming out m droves, about 60 people by count. 

Mr. Halley. Doesn't your office have authority to do anvthinff 
about that ? j j &> 

Mr. Gherscovich. You see, our policemen are city policemen. 
There are only a couple of men who are coroners, which might give 
them authority. In the unincorporated areas, it is the sheriff's duty 
to go m there. That was brought out in the trial of Chief Wlekinski 
and Chief Wigglesworth. 

Mr. Halley. Is Calumet City an incorporated area? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Incorporated. 

Mr. Halley. Is it the sheriff's duty to go in there, too? 

Mr. Gherscovich. No. It is an incorporated area, and they have 
their own police department. They are supposed to go in when law 
enforcement breaks down. 

Mr. Halley. In addition to the letters, do you have any other rec- 
ords that you want to present to the committee ? 

Mr Gherscovich. I believe yesterday you asked Mr. Boyle regard- 
ing the chief of Calumet City, whose name was Wlekinski. 

The Chairman. Before you get to the chief of Calumet City, there 
IS some testimony or statement that your office, Mr. Boyle's office, 
started raiding and confiscating slot machines in November, 1949, and 
at that time the sheriff quit raiding slot machines. Do you have any 
correspondence with reference to that, or do you know anything 
about it ? -^ J & 

Mr. Gherscovich. Slot machines ? 

The Chairman. That is, gambling devices. 

Mr. Gherscovich. The raids that we made? 

The Chairman. Is there any correspondence about why Mr. Boyle 
started and why the sheriff stopped raiding them at that time « 

Mr. Gherscovich. We started the raids on slot machines because 
they were going wide open in the county, and nothing was being done 
We were notifying the sheriff prior to that, and the other chiefs of 
the various villages, about slot machines in their villao-es. Nothing 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 259 

was being done, so we went in and took it upon ourselves. We made 
the investiofations and went out and made the raids. 

The Chairman. All right. Go ahead with Calumet City. 

Mr. Halley. You were going to tell about the chief of police of 
Calumet City. Was there any point you wanted to make, except the 
name ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I just wanted to bring his name out. 

The Chairman. What is his name ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Henry A. Wlekinski. 

Mr. Halley. What records do you have there with you that you 
want to })resent to the committee ? We have the letters. 

The Chairman. Is he still the chief of police of Calumet City? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Yes, he is. 

The Chairman. Is he the one who was tried for nonfeasance in 
office ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you have any correspondence with him? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Yes, sir. He gave a statement before the grand 
jury, and also a statement to Mr. Boyle. 

The Ciiair:man. Let us see the statement to Mr. Boyle. 

Mr. Gherscovich. These are the grand jury statements [producing 
documents.] 

The Chairman. Let these be made exhibit Xo. 30 without being 
copied in the record. 

(Exhibit Xo. 30 is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Gherscovich. Here is a resume of all of our activities in the 
past year as to raids. 

Mr. Halley. May that be accepted in evidence ? 

The Chairman. That will be made exhibit No. 31 without being 
copied into the record. 

(Exhibit No. 31 is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Gherscovich. That shows our raids and what we have been 
doing. It is an index of it. We have the reports on that. 

Mr. Halley. Is there anything else you would like to ])resent ? You 
were going to give us the file of letters. May we have that? 

Mr. Ghersovich. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you need it for your current work ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. It will be carefully taken care of. 

Mr. Gherscovich. I will leave the whole file with you. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

I know you have taken a lot of trouble and brought a lot of records 
in here. If you will tell us what they are, perhaps the committee 
would want to know about them. 

Mr. Gherscovich. I have a Melrose Park file, on the Lumber Gar- 
dens, which was operated by Kocco De Grazia. We tried the chief of 
Melrose Park for nonfeasance. 

Mr. Halley. Can you let the committee have that file for a short 
while ? 

The Chairman. Who is the chief of Melrose Park? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Kobert Wigglesworth. 

The Chairman. What happened to the trial? 

Mr. Gherscovich. He was found not guilty by jury. 



260 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Will you relate very briefly what this transaction 
grew out of ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. We were making numerous investigations as to 
gambling in Melrose Park, and this Lumber Gardens. 

The Chairman. What is the name of the Gardens ? 

Mr. Cherscovich. Lumber Gardens, and the Casa Madrid. 

The Chairman. Who owned it ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Kocco De Grazia. 

The Chairman. Rocco De Grazia. What is his other alias ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I don't think he has any. This is a picture of 
the Lumber Gardens. 

The Chairman. Is that a picture of Lumber Gardens ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. That is Lumber Gardens. The big building is 
the Casa Madrid, and the other is Lumber Gardens. 

The Chairman. Did Mr. Boyle's group raid Lumber Gardens ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. No, sir. We investigated the sheriff about 
Lumber Gardens, and also Chief Wigglesworth. We wrote numerous 
letters to them in reference to the Lumber Gardens. 

The Chairman. Nothing was done about it, so the chief of police 
was indicted for nonfeasance ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Failure to act. 

The Chairman. And tried before a jury, and released? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Found not guilty. 

Mr. Halley. Did he testify in his own behalf ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Yes ; I jjelieve he did. 

Mr. Halley. Did he admit or deny that the place was operating as 
a gambling place? 

Mr. Gherscovich. His excuse was that he never had a sufficient 
number of men, that he was sick and ailing, and he couldn't take the 
job over personally, and he was short of men, the same as at Calumet 
City ; Wlekinski said he was short of men. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

The Chairman. What else do you have there ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I will leave the Melrose Park file and the Calu- 
met City file. There are pictures here of the Calumet City places, too. 

The Chairman. Let us see the pictures of the Calumet City places. 

Mr. Gherscovich. I was in on the investigation of Calument City 
last September. I was making investigations of Calument City my- 
self. I would go out to the town. When I hit the town I always man- 
aged to get two spots where a crap game was in progress but I was 
known, and by the time I got to the others they had shut down. 

About the county, now, everybody knows me, but I still go out and 
make the raids. 

These files are self-explanatory as to the reports and as to the letters 
we have written and the court files. 

Mr. Halley. Fine. 

The Chairman. We appreciate very much, Mr. Ghertz, your com- 
ing in. 

Mr. Gherscovich. The other records that we have here are to the 
various other chiefs of police of Blue Island, whom Mr. Boyle called 
in, and Phoenix. Would you want those records ? 

The Chairman, Tell us about what the transactions were. 

Mr. Gherscovich. We made investigations in almost all of the towns 
in the county and all the unincorporated areas. Where we found 



O'RGANTZEO CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 261 

gambling to exist, Mr. Bo_yle then called in the various chiefs of police 
of the respective communities and told them to have all gambling cease. 

The Chairman. Describe the towns you have over there in the file, 
without getting the files out, if you can. 

Let the record show the witness 

Mr. Gherscovicii. The record would show on this resume sheet. 

The Chairman. Let the record show the witness has brought m 
voluminous files showing correspondence and transactions with the 
police departments of the various towns in Cook County outside of 
Chicago ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. Anything else, Mr. Halley or Mr. Robinson? 

Mr. Halley. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, sir, we Avill get these back to you. 

Mr. Gherscovich. I have two indictment sheets that come out of 
our file. Would you want that? 

The Chairman. I do not think so. 

Mr. Gherscovich. On Wigglesworth and Wlekinski. 

The Chairman. That is what they were charged with ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. That is right, sir. 

The Chairivian. Leave those with these statements which were filed. 

Mr. Gherscovich. We still continue our job on raiding the slot 
machines. 

The Chairman. You keep on going after them? You are doing 
all right, we hope. 

Mr. Gherscovich. Besides that, we also make vice raids and check 
on minors, which it isn't our clut}^ to do. It is up to the sheriffs and 
other police chiefs to do, and we have to go out to check taverns for 
minors. It requires a lot of work, and we are short of men, too. 

Mr. Robinson. In the course of these raids on gambling places, do 
you find who the owner is ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. The owners are seldom present. They always 
have a cashier in charge, or some floor man. 

Mr. Robinson. What I am getting at, have you found any indica- 
tion of these hoodlums being interested or being owners of any of these 
places ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. The only names I have got on ownei^ of places 
are 48 and 1719 West Fifty-sixth Street. Mix Novak, at 810 South 
Des Plaines, and 9702 South Western was Andrew Red Creighton. 

Mr. Kerner. Those are all recognized names and came out in the 
Skidmore matter. 

Mr. Gherscovich. Rocco De Grazia in Melrose Park, Lumber 
Gardens. 

The Chairman. How about this place, the Vernon Countrj?- Club ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. That is out of the county. 

The Chairman. That is over in Lake County ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Yes; thank God. 

The Chairman. Do you know who owns that ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. No. 

The Chairman. Does it still operate ? 

]\Ir. Gherscovich. I never check into Lake County. 

The Chairman. How about Gizzo and Fischetti ? Have you found 
any places that you could trace the ownership to them ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. As to ownership, you can never trace it. 

The Chairman. Why ? 



262 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gherscovich, We go into these places, and the men we see 
around, and from our conversations in making investigations, and all 
of our investigators are pretty well known in there, and in talking 
with the patrons, it seems that the people running the places are 
always the cashier or a floor man. As to the owners, they don't know. 

The Chairman. Let us get it a little bit further. This fellow 
Creighton, is he a w^ell-known racketeer here in the Chicago area? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Andrew Creighton formerly operated a hand- 
book, managed handbooks. 

The Chairman. Is he still living? 

Mr. Gherscovich. He is. 

The Chairman. What does he do now ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Operating a handbook. 

The Chairman. Where? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Forest Park, and 9702 Southwest. 

The Chairman. Does he have a criminal record ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. I don't think he has. 

The Chairman. Then this fellow Rocco De Grazia, is he a well- 
known racketter in this area, or do you know ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. That I don't know. I can only get from the 
newspaper 

The Chairman. Who was the third one you mentioned ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Mix Novack, Tom Mix Novack. 

The Chairman. What does he do ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. He is reputed to be a handbook operator at 
4819 West Sixty-fifth. 

The Chairman. Is he a well-known character about Cook County ? 

Mr. Gherscovich. All I know is that he operates a handbook. I 
don't know anything about these people, their background. 

The Chairman. But you found one of these places was owned by 
him? 

Mr. Gherscovich. Reputedly owned by him. It is the talk that he 
owns it. 

The Chairman. All right, thank you, sir. 
(Witness excused.) 

PURTHER TESTIMONY OE ELMER MICHAEL WALSH, SHERIFF, 
COOK COUNTY, ILL., ACCOMPANIED BY MAURICE L. GREENE, 
CHIEF, COOK COUNTY HIGHWAY POLICE 

Mr. Robinson. Sheriff, do you recall this letter ? 

The Chairman. Let us identify the date. This letter of June 29, 
1949, to you from Mr. Boyle. 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall what action was taken with respect 
to that letter? 

Sheriff Walsh. I wouldn't remember offliand without getting my 
records. I have Chief Greene here, who is outside, the chief of my 
highway police, and if I can get those records in, I can tell you what 
action we took. 

The Chairman. Let us get the chief in. 

Sheriff Walsh. He is right outside. 



ORGAMZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 263 

My recollection is that we raided this place about 20 times. 

This is Chief Greene, gentlemen.^ 

The Chairman. How are you, Chief? . 

Chief, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this com- 
mittee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

Mr. Greene. I do. „ , ^ , ^ ^ -rr- i 

The Chairman. You are the chief of the Cook County Highway 

Police? 

Mr. Greene. Yes, sir. ^, ^ 4.1 

Sheriff Walsh. Chief, can you tell us the number of times that the 
handbook at 4819 West Sixty-fifth Street was raided, offhand, accord- 
ing to our records ? , • i i t 

Mr. Greene. I don't know that I have that particular place, i 
think it is in the other file. .n^^ ttt ^ c- .. 

The record here discloses the Hill Top, and also 4817 West Sixty- 
fifth Street, which is operated by the same people. You raid them 
here and you will find them the next day perhaps over at the other 
place. We have taken the Hill Top 12 times, according to this record, 

and 4817 10 times. . r., -^ -r^ 1 

Mr. Robinson. Let me ask this question. Sheriff: Do you make any 
effort to raid gambling places in incorporated towns ? _ 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes. I want to correct any impression yesterday 
that we don't make any raids in incorporated towns, because we do. 
As a matter of fact, Chief Greene reminded me after I left here yes- 
terday that we have made more raids in incorporated towns than we 
have in unincorporated towns. 

Do you have the figures there. Chief ? . n , j 

In incorporated towns we have made 806 raids, and we have made 
670 raids in unincorporated towns. 

The Chairman. Six hundred seventy ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Six hundred seventy. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall its ever having been brought to your 
attention that some of your deputies were at those locations? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes; I do. I remember that. On one occasion 
particularly, up at the Wagon Wheel, which we have raided. 

Mr. Greene. Twenty times. 

Sheriff Walsh. Twenty times. ^ , , r^ • s^ r^ 

One of my squad cars was seen there. I asked Chief Greene to 
check it ; and will you tell what you found ? ', . 

Mr. Greene. That is the late date, the last one we had. As soon as 
we secured information regarding that place, that it was 111 opera- 
tion—some days and some weeks they wouldn't be there at all— when 
they came back, we put a detail there. This particular day we secured 
information that the lieutenant took the place of the regular squad. 
That information we secured, so we let the lieutenant go. \V e sus- 
pended him and let him out, because we don't condone that kind ot 
situation. That is what happened at that particular place. 

Sheriff Walsh. I remember calling in the lieutenant and discuss- 
ing it with him, and he denied that the place was m operation on that 
date. I said, "The State's attorney wrote me a letter and said it was 
in operation, and your instructions from Chief Greene were to post 
a detail there to stay there and see they didn't even open, and it was 
your responsibility up in that district to do that." So he said they 



264 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN IKiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Avere not going that day, regardless of the letter that came from the 
State's attorney. So, I immediately suspended him and took him 
out of police work entirely. He is no longer with me any more. 

Mr. Robinson. How many deputies or investigators from your 
office have been suspended? 

Sheriff Walsh. I think we had one other on Sixty-fifth Street; 
isn't that right, Chief? 

Mr. Greene. Yes. We received a letter in that regard, too. It 
was operating at the same time the squad was supposed to be there. 
But there are eight different places in that block that they can func- 
tion. It is a whole big corner, Sixty-fifth Street, and then Cicero 
is the other way. Hill Top is at the end of the street, and this tavern 
is at that end. But there is a grocery and a dairy and tliere are two 
homes. They are so situated that they can operate in any of these 
eight places. It is humanly impossible, sometimes, for one squad to 
go around and find out, because definitely the place is closed if you 
look at it. It is a difficult corner there at times. 

The Chairman. When a raid is conducted, do you take out all the 
equipment and everything they have there? 

Mr. Greene. Everything that they have in there. 
The Chairman. Isn't it possible to padlock the place ? 
Sheriff Walsh. No; we don't have injunction proceedings in this 
State, Senator. I understand the Chicago Crime Commission is work- 
ing on a bill now to have the same injunctive procedure as we had 
here during the prohibition days when Federal prohibition w^as in 
force here. 

I remember another lieutenant that we suspected was not doing 
his job. I called him in. I told him we weren't satisfied with the 
way he was keeping gambling down in the 'district he w^as in. I 
broke him from a lieutenant to a sergeant, and then he left my force 
shortly after that, about a year ago. 

Mr. Robinson. Those are the only three instances ? 
Sheriff Walsh. Yes. 
]\Ir. Greene. That is all. 

Mr. Halley. Have you any jurisdiction over Calumet City? 
Sheriff Walsh. The primary jurisdiction in Calumet City is on 
their own police force there, but I have raided Calumet City through 
my police force. Chief Greene here, many, many times. I think we 
have a total number of raids in Calumet City since I have been sheriff, 
40 slot machines, 35 books, 22 miscellaneous arrests, crap games, card 
games, punchboards, and strip-tease violations, a total of about 97. 

Calumet City has always been a sore spot here in Cook County with 
us. It is a hot spot. It is the steel-mill district. It has always been 
a sore spot to us. 

I remember one occasion that I myself, personally, went out there — 
the only way I can possibly conduct a raid in a big town like Calumet 
City, because of the system they have for warning the minute the 
squad car comes in that town. They have a warning system there 
which tips them all off and everything goes down immediately. 
Mr. Halley. Do you have to use squad cars ? 

Sheriff Walsh. We use private cars when we can. We don't have 
private cars, Mr. Halley. We have to use squad cars. 

On this one raid that I participated in personally and directed it, 
which was when Chief Johnson was with me, I took men from other 



ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 265 

departments in my office, when they finished their regular work, and 
asked them to help me out. I spent 3 weeks planning the raid. As a 
result of that, I had 40 men in this raid. We came in through Indiana 
in order to effect the raid. I think that time we made about 35 
arrests. 

I wrote to the mayor of Calumet City at least a dozen letters, 
apprising him of the situation out there, telling him to have his police 
force do their job. 

Mr. Halley. I have before me two letters from j'ou to the State's 
attorney of Cook County, one of September 13, 1949, in which you say, 
and I quote : 

With reference to dice games operating in Calumet City, this information was 
forwarded by Chief Greene to the lieutenant in charge of the Homewood 
Station of the Cook County Highway Police. He visited tlie locations named in 
the letter, and also other establishments on the streets of Calumet City. No 
games were in operation Friday, September 9, 10, or up to the present date, 
September 13. "We have squads assigned to that territory to keep a constant 
check on gaming of any kind in the Calumet City area. 

Did your subsequent experience indicate to you that the informa- 
tion you received, referred to in this letter, was wrong ? 

Sheriff Waksh. What was the date on that? 

Mr. Halley. September 13, 1949. 

Sheriff Walsh. Could you answer that? 

Mr. Gkeexe. Maybe you have it in here. 

I\Ir. Halley. That is your letter. 

The Chairman. Here is the letter, if you want to see it. 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes, but we have letters here which will answer 
that, I believe. Senator. 

Mr. Halley. I notice on November 1, after the district attorney 
then called to your attention that one of your squad cars was seen in 
Calumet City, you then wrote another letter saying that you have 
found gambling there; that you had written another registered let- 
ter to the ma3^or urging revocation of licenses of four clubs. I think 
you also said that whoever in your office was there must have been 
making a routine investigation. 

The Chairman. What is the date of that letter? 

Mr. Halley. This is November 1, 1949. 

Sheriff Walsh. I remember that letter. I have a copy of it in my 
files. I also wrote a letter to Wlekinski on the same date, who is 
the mayor of Calumet City. I said : 

About 10 days ago I wrote a registered letter informing you an investigator 
of the State's attorney's office had reported a handbook in operation at the 
Owl Club at Douglas and Plummer Streets in Calumet City, and asked that 
you take proper and necessary action. Since that time, highway police from 
my office have raided the Owl Club, also known as the Cozy Corner, and found 
a book in operation, and arrested the operators. 

My records further indicate that this office has previously made 7 raids, 33 
arrests, and that on March 23, 1949, I wrote you another registered letter 
recommending that the license issued to this establishment be revoked because 
of repeated gambling violations. A copy of this letter was also sent to the 
Honorable John S. P^osdick, district attorney. 

I again urge that my original recommendation pertaining to the revocation 
of the license of this tavern be carried out at this time. 

The State's attorney informed me that his investigator also reported gambling 
at the Riptide Club, 101 South State Street; the Rendezvous Club, 100 State 
Street; and the Four Aces at 206 State Street. My records also indicate that 
68958—51 — pt. 5 18 



266 ORGANIZED CRIMD IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

sheriff's police raifled the Riptide Club for gambling operations on December 6, 
11)47, and again on February 6, 1949, resulting in convictions and tines. Like- 
wise, the Kendezvous Club was raided by the sheriff's police on December 6, 
1948, and resulted in a conviction, as well as the Four Aces Club on July 1, 1947, 
and on May 26, 1947, all of which resulted in convictions of gambling violations. 
I therefore also recommend that the license be revoked of the Riptide Club 
and the Rendezvous Club and the Four Aces. 

Mr. Halley. In view of your strong findings tliat tliere was 
gambling in Calumet City, would it be your view that the information 
you received from your lietitenant in charge of the Homewood Station, 
referred to in the letter of September lo, saying that no games were 
in operation on September 9 through 13, would be rights Does that 
sound reasonable ? 

Sheriff Walsh. The man in charge of that station, I called him in 
and asked for his resignation. 

Mr, Halley. Did you get it ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is that one of the three ? 

Sheriff Walsit. No ; that is another one. I forgot about it. 

Mr. Halley. When did you again make a raid in Calumet City? 

The Chairman. About how long ago ? 

Mr. Greene. We have the arrest slip here — "8-17-50, the 34 Club, 
Calumet City, raided as a book." 

The Chairman. August 17, 1950? 

Mr. Greene. Yes. That is the last date that a raid was made in 
Calumet City. 

Mr. Halley. Chief, what was your prior experience before becom- 
ing head of the county highway patrol ? 

Mr. Greene. I have been in this department for 9 years. 

Mr. Halley. Sheriff's department? 

Mr. Greene. That is right. I also was in the Parole Office of the 
State of Illinois, and I worked for the Government prior to that. 

Mr. Halley. AVhat government ? 

Mr. Greene. The Department of Commerce. 

Mr. Halley. In what capacity had you worked for the Department 
of Commerce? 

Mr. Greene. Some work in the Census Bureau. They had some 
work there. 

Mr. Halley. Then you went to work for the parole office ? 

Mr. Greene. Parole office. 

Mr. Halley. Which parole office ? 

Mr. Greene. The State of Illinois. 

Mr. Halley. What type of work did you do there? 

Mr. Greene. Investigator and parole agent. 

Mr. Halley. Then you went to the sheriff's office? 

Mr. Greene. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Seven years ago ? 

Mr. Greene. Nine years ago. I have been here 9 years. 

Mr. Halley. Which sheriff appointed you ? 

Mr. Greene. O'Brien. I have been here under five sheriffs now: 
O'Brien ; Carey — Carey died ; Brodie took over, as the coroner ; then 
Mulcahy came in ; and Sheriff Walsh. 

Mr. Halley. Had you served on the highway police under all those 
sheriffs? 

Mr. Greene. That is right. 



ORGAlSriZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 267 

Mr. Halley. How long have you been chief of the highway police? 

Mr. Greene. June 2, 1949, 1 took over. 

Mr. Halley. AVhat had been your job before June 2, 1949? 

Mr. Gkeene. I was working in the sheriff's office on the fourth floor 
for a year prior to that, and before that I wasn't connected with the 
sheriff's office. I wasn't feeling too well, either. I left there. It was 
the political set-up why I left there, more or less. 

Mr. Halley. When did you leave the sheriff's office? 

^Ir. Greene. The first of the year, 1948. 

Mr. Halley. What do you mean by the "political set-up"? 

Mr. Greene. Well, I wasn't sponsored right, and that was the rea- 
son for my being let out at that time. 

Mr. Halley. Who let you out ? 

Mr. Greene. The sheriff here. 

]\Ir. Halley. Why weren't you sponsored right ? 

Mr. Greene. That is the way the word came down the line. 

Mr. Halley. Who were you sponsored by ? 

Mr, Greene. By my ward organization. 

Mr. Halley. What ward? 

Mr. Greene. The fortieth ward. Originally I came in sponsored, 
when I first took the job, under a Democratic regime, and I had to 
have a Republican sponsor to stay in this office after the sheriff took 
office. 

Mr. Halley. Then you came back in July 1949 ? 

]Mr. Greene. No I came back 4 months after I went out, January, 
February, March, April — about April of 1948 — and I went to work on 
the fourth floor as a writ server. 

Mr. Halley. Had you found a Republican sponsor? 

Mr, Greene. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who sponsored you ? 

Mr. Greene. Originally, or this Republican? 

Mr. Halley. The second time. 

Mr. Greene. George Ibsen. He is the Republican ward committee- 
man of the fortieth ward. 

Mr. Halley. When you left the office in 1948, what was your 
position ? 

Mr. Greene. I was acting lieutenant, Homewood. 

Mr. Halley. In the highway police ? 

Mr. Greene. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long had you held that position ? 

Mr. Greene. I would say about 10 months. 

Mr. Halley. About 10 months? 

Mr. Greene. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long, altogether, had you been in the highway 
police up to 1948? 

Mr. Greene. Up until 1948? It would be 61^ or 7 years. 

Mr. Halley. All spent in the highway police ? 

Mr. Greene. Yas; I was a deputy, sergeant, and lieutenant. I 
worked my way all the way through. 

Mr. Halley. Sheriff, I believe you were asked to bring some records 
as to your income. 

Sheriff Walsh. Xo ; I wasn't. 
. Mr. Halley. You were not? 

Sheriff' Walsh. No. 



268 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Could 3' on state what your income has been in the hist 
4 years? 

The Chairman. Before you get on to that, let me ask the chief a 
question or two. 

I do not think you are ever going to get any real law enforce- 
ment in the county as long as you have this ward-sponsorship system 
and a complete turn-over of personnel every time you have a new 
sheriif, and the division of responsibility between the municipalities, 
the sheriif's office, and the State's attorney's office. It looks to me 
like one awful mess. 

You were in there, and then you had another sheriff. Sheriff Walsh 
came along and you did not have the right sponsorship, so, without 
any hard feelings, you were just out ? 

Mr. Greene. That is true; that is politics. My department is 
quite 

The Chairman. Then you looked around and got another sponsor. 
Who is Mr. Ibsen ? ' 

Mr, Greene. He is the Republican ward committeeman in the same 
ward, the fortieth ward, Avhere I came from originally sponsored 
under the Democratic regime when I came to this office. 

The Chairman. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Greene. He is chief bailiff of the criminal court. He is with 
the sheriff's office. 

Mr. Robinson. Any relation to Joe Epstein? 

The Chairman. It is I-b-s-e-n ? 

Mr. Greene. I-b-s-e-n, George Ibsen. 

The Chairman. How do you get somebody to sponsor you like 
that ? Is there any money ever passed ? 

Mr. Greene. No, sir. The precinct captain — that is what I have 
been, precinct captain, and carried a pretty good one. He just wanted 
me over on his side. He saw I was in this job, and the job was a Re- 
publican office now, and I liked the work and wanted to stay. He 
decided to take me over and go into his organization. That is where 
the letter of sponsorship came through. 

The Chairman. You mean the precinct captain? Who was he? 

Mr. Greene. I was the precinct captain, and in order — I was a 
Democratic precinct captain for some years, and I stayed through the 
Democratic regimes, these four sheriffs ; and then Sheriff Walsh came 
in, and it was a Republican regime. 

The Chairman. Did you take your precinct, then, ov^er to the Re- 
publican organization ? 

Mr. Greene. That is right. 

The Chairman. How do you do that ; just take it over ? 

Mr. Greene. Well, you live in a place for so many years, the people 
know you, and eventually you go out, just like a salesman trying to 
sell. Instead of merchandise, you sell a candidate, whoever you are 
going out politically for. 

The Chairman. So when you got a Republican sheriff, you just took 
your organization over to the Republicans? 

Mr. Greene. That is right. 

The Chairman. How many people do you vote in your precinct? 

Mr. Greene. Five hundred twenty. 

The Chairman. What precinct is that? 

Mr. Greene. Fortj^-fifth precinct of the fortieth ward. 



ORGAN^IZED CRIME IN IXTEESTATE COMMERCE 269 

Tlie Chairman. I thought you said Mr. Ibsen was in the forty- 
fourth ward. 

Mr. Greene. In the fortieth, sir. 

The Chairman. You vote how many people in your precinct? 

]\Ir. Greene. In an election ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Greene. As high as 450 in an election. 

The Chairman. How mau}^ of them can you carry ? 

Mr. Greene. I don't carry too many. I carry about 50 or 60 votes. 

The Chairman. You carry 50 or 60 either way ? 

Mr. Greene. Well, it was a little more the other way, before. 

The Chairman. You used to carry a little better Democratic than 
3^ou could Republican? 

Mr. Greene. Those were different years, too. I guess times were 
a litle different, too. When Roosevelt was there, it made a difference, 
too. 

The Chairman. So a lot of people just follow you, whatever your 
personal wishes are? 

Mr. Greene. Well, sort of friendly. If there is any advice or any 
help I can give them, I am ever grateful to do it. 

The Chairman. What sheriff' put you in first? 

Mr. Greene. O'Brien. 

The Chairman. Was he a Republican or Democrat? 

Mr. Greene. Democrat. He is a Congressman now. 

The Ch^virman. "VYliat is his first name ? 

Mr. Greene. Thomas O'Brien. 

The Chairman. That was in 1942 ? 

Mr. Greene. Yes, that is right. That is when he came in. 

The Chairman. What would happen if, when you got to be sheriff, 
you said, "It may have been run under the spoils system in the past 
but I am going to keep good people in here, and am not going to 
look at their politics in the matter.'* What would happen to you ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Of course, when you are selected as the candidate, 
you have to make a pledge that you will hire Republicans. 

The Chairman. To wJiom do you make your pledge? 

Sheriff Walsh. To the county central committee. 

The Chairman. If you do not make a pledge, then you are in the 
dog house from then on ? 

Sheriff Walsh. You probably wouldn't be selected. 

The Chairman. If you make the pledge and then do not work out 
that way 

Sheriff Walsh. I insisted on taking care of World War II vets in 
my campaign, and as I think I testified yesterday, I have over 60 per- 
cent of my highway police as World War II vets, and most of those 
did not come through the political organizations. 

The Chairman. What sort of pledge do you have to take ? Do you 
hold up your hand and swear ? 

Sheriff Walsh. No, sir, nothing like that. You just agree that you 
will hire Republicans. 

The Chairman. If they are behind you, you will hire Republicans 
and clear it with the w^ard committeemen^ 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes, and they have the same system in the 
Democrats. 



270 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Democrat or Republican, it is not a very good way 
to run a law-enforcement agency. 

Sheriff Walsh. That is right. I recommended that the highway 
police be civil service. I am in favor of it, and I have been in favor of 
it within 6 months after taking office. 

The Chairman. Excuse me, Mr. Halley. I interrupted you. 

Mr. Halley. In addition to your income as sheriff, have you had 
any other income in the last 4 years ? 

Sheriff Walsh. My salary is about $10,000 a year, $9,960 to be 
exact. I was in the service for 49 months from 1942 to 1945, and I 
immediately came out and didn't have a chance to pick up the threads 
of my law practice. I went right into the sheriff's office. I was elected 
in that first campaign. My only income after I got out of the service 
was from some of my old clients, where lawyers were handling my 
work for me. I think it dwindled down, and each year it got less, 
because I had lost contact with them. 

I would say that maybe the first year I got out, when I got back 
from the Army, approximately $2,500 or $3,000. The next year it 
was about a thousand dollars less; and the last year, my last income 
tax, I think was around $1,400. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any other income except that ? 

Sheriff Walsh. I had a little income from stocks and bonds, but 
not an appreciable amount. 

Mr. Halley. What was the total amount you reported in 1949, for 
the year 1949 ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Let's see, $10,000 plus about $1,400; maybe 2,100 
or $2,200. That would be the size of my salary, approximately. 

Mr. Halley. You mean $700 or $800 would be income from stocks 
and bonds ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes ; all other income. 

Mr. Halley. Are you a man of any substantial wealth? 

Sheriff Walsh. No; I am not. I have a family of four. A son at 
Annapolis Naval Academy. I have a son in the Air Force now, a 
second lieutenant ; two daughters. 

I sold my home before I was elected sheriff. I live in a home out on 
the South Shore. The house is vacant now. I also own a place in 
Michigan, a summer place which I built 13 years ago, a summer cot- 
tage right around the lake. 

Mr. Halley. Have you acquired any property in the last 4 years ? 

Sheriff Walsh. No ; I have not. 

Mr. Halley. In connection with the slot-machine seizures, could 
you state how many seizures were made each year? I think you have 
given the committee a total of 1,400. Could you break that down by 
years ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Maybe Chief Greene can do that better than me. 

Mr. Greene. It is a hard thing to decide. There is no equal amount 
that you ever take. All Ave do is keep them for a certain length of 
time, and then destroy them. As far as knowing the actual amount, 
since I have been here I have destroyed close to 600 ; since I have been 
chief I have destroyed that many. 

Mr. Halley. Can you account for the fact that the county attorney's 
office, in the same period, was able to go out and find about the same 
number ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 271 

Mr. Greene. That is according to their figure. I guess that is it. 
I wouldn't know. 

Sheriff Walsh. I would like to make an observation on that. 

Mr. Hakley. Would you, please'^ 

Sheriff Walsh. The State's attorney, of course, according to the 
press, has Chicago policemen who went out to do this work, 70 police- 
men. We couldn't get 70 men to go out on a gambling raid, no matter 
what we tried to do, except if we took them from other departments, 
and their work would suffer by it. He had the manpower to do it. 
That is No. 1. 

Mr. Halley. I think he pointed out that these policemen were not 
available for that work in any great numbers. 

Sheriff Walsh. That is not the information we have. 

Mr. Greene. The State's attorney? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Greene. He has them just for that purpose. 

Mr. Halley. Can he use them in the county, city police ? 

Mr. Greene. He has been doing that. 

The Chairman. He said he had 76 police officers, and they were 
supposed to serve subpenas and work up cases after an indictment had 
been returned. 

Mr. Greene. When I have been out in the county there on raids, 
they have been out in all three districts, everywhere, at one time; and 
it is liumanl}' impossible to be in three districts unless you have the 
manpower to get out. I would find four or five of them places, and 
maybe he would find the same amount, but he would have enough men 
to leave in the place. He could leave the men sit in there. In many a 
case, it has been there, because when j'ou go to court you hear the tesi- 
mony. They sit and drink a couple of glasses of beer and wait it out, 
and all of a sudden they find somebody going into the next room some- 
where, and start playing the slot machine. If you can sit here and 
wait it out, you can surely find something, or else go down in the 
basement and find it. But if you are well known, you have a difficult 
situation sitting in a tavern trying to find out when they will push a 
machine out and when they will take it back in. 

The Chairman. There is some testimony here to the effect, I believe 
Mr. Boyle said, that he started raiding slot machines in November 
1949, and when he started getting them you just quit getting them. 

Sheriff Walsh. That is not true. 

Mr. Greene. We are still at it. 

The Chairman. Maybe that is not exactly what he said. 

Sheriff Walsh. We have been getting fewer since he started, because 
naturally the places that we would take them from, he got them. 

Then again, the State's attorney went to private clubs, country 
clubs, and took machines. We didn't do that. 

The Chairivian. Why didn't you do that ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Because we felt that the machines that were in these 
public places on the highway were more apt to be syndicate-controlled. 
We didn't have the manpower to go into all these private clubs, the 
American Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars and the private 
country clubs all over the county. 

Mr. Greene. And j^ou need a warrant to get into any of those places. 
Definitely, if they know who j^ou are, they won't let you get past the 
door. 



272 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Would you care to comment on the law-enforcement 
situation in the county ? As you may have heard, we have heard about 
there bein^ some wide-open dice game in Calumet City, and we just 
rode out there, and there it was. We asked State's Attorney Boyle 
about the county situation, and we have a record of a substantial num- 
ber of letters from the State's attorney to you, calling to your atten- 
tion places that he had found that were open. We were wondering 
M-hat comment you might have on the law-enforcement situation in tlie 
county. 

Sheriff Walsh, With reference to the letters received from the 
State's attorney, of course you have to take this into consideration, 
that on the manpower problem he had us licked four to one, to 
say nothing of having plainclothesmen and investigators out who 
could spot the places. For the most part, the letters I got from 
State's Attorney Boyle in the county, with the exception probably 
of Calumet City, were all books. I think in only one case he told 
me there was a slot machine to raid. It was always books in the 
county. 

I feel that as sheriff of this county for nearly 4 years now — and 
I have gone back and checked the records of previous sheriffs — ■ 
and so far as I can find, my antigambling record is better than 
that of any sheriff in Cook County at any time. 

The Chairman. How about the books? Did you go raid them 
when he would write you about them ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes; every time. I have letters in here answer- 
ing his letter, telling wdiat we did. Every time he wrote us a letter 
on a book, we would go out and raid it if it was going. If it wasn't 
going, we would try to find where it moved to. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, you have the situation, I think three 
cases in which he called to your attention your squad cars parked 
in front of places where there was gambling, and in fact, you re- 
moved lieutenants as a result. Does that create any feeling in your 
mind that your system needs checking up ? 

Sheriff Walsh. We took that opportunity to admonish every- 
body in the department, and I passed on to Chief Greene that any 
time we had a similar occurrence, something worse than just firing 
would happen to them. 

Mr, Halley. How many lieutenants have you ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Three. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have captains over there ? 

Sheriff Walsh. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do they all serve under you? 

Mr. Greene. Yes. 

Mr. Halley, Then you had to fire all your lieutenants? 

Mr, Greene, No. 

Mr. Halley. At different times? 

Sheriff Walsh. We fired two lieutenants. 

Mr. Greene. I tell you, your whole picture is manpower. When 
I first started, w^e had 101 more men than we have right now, and, 
due to the war — no gas, tires, and cars — they were eliminated in 
1944. As the sheriff stated — I don't know wdiether he stated it or 
not — we put in a request, I know, last year, and we have given 
them enough information. The circuit court judge who presides, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 273 

in other words, gives you the amount of help in a fee office that you 
are supposed to have. Last year we had close to 11,000 calls, any- 
where from dog bites to murder, that were handled by my department. 

The manpower is the situation, in every instance. Many a time 
you can put a detail on a gambling place and they won't operate. 
It is standing right there. 

Mr. Halley. I don't see the relationship of manpower to the 
fact that you had to fire two lieutenants. 

Mr. Greene. One didn't do his job; and the other one, the States 
attorney claimed was seen in front of this place, and that is when he 
was suspended. That is the relationship. In other words, one wasn't 
in front of anyplace, the one that was let out. The one that was, the 
last one, he was supposed to be in front of this place, where we had a 
uniformed detail there, and then the uniformed detail was called off 
and he was there. Seeing that he was on the premises, the sheriff took 
it on himself, and it was also my recommendation that we suspend 
him. On investigation, we let him out. In other words, we don't con- 
done the condition. It has been hard going with the amount of men 
we have had to work with. 

The Chairman. You have 776 men, altogether ? 

Mr. Greene. One hundred twenty-six. 

Sheriff Walsh. About 727 on the rolls now. 

The Chairman. That is employees? 

Sheriff Walsh. They are employed in the county jail 

The Chairman. That many officers or men that you have ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Those are just personnel that the county board 
allotted to us, that the circuit judge gives us, to perform certain duties 
in my office. That includes the county jail officers in charge of guard- 
ing that jail, which is the largest county jail in the United States, with 
a population of about 1,300 over there as a general average. That 
includes all the bailiffs in all the civil courts, all the bailiffs m all the 
criminal courts on the West Side. That includes all the process sei^^ers 
that serve civil writs, all the process servers who serve criminal writs 
and bench warrants and indictments in the criminal end of it. It also 
includes the custodial work in the county building, the elevator 
operators. 

The Chairman. How many does that leave you that you can have 
out to enforce the law ? 

Sheriff Walsh. The circuit court judge fixed that number exactly, 
129. 

I have taken men from some departments at times, and put them in 
to help out on the police work, but you can't do that all the time, be- 
cause they can't work dav and night. We try to get additional help 
each year. We ask for 100 additional men. And each year when the 
budget comes up, we never get them. 

The Chairman. Anything else, Mr. Halley? 

Mr. Halley. Chief, what is your salary as chief ? 

Mr. Greene. $6,500 a year. 

Mr. Halley. In 1949, did you have any income aside from your 
income from the chief's job? 

Mr. Greene. That is all. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 



274 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Sheriff, are all these stocks, and things you own, 
listed stocks on the exchange ? 

Sheriff Walsh. Yes ; they are all listed stocks. 

Tlie Chairman. Do either you or the chief own any interest in any 
tavern or anything of that sort ? 

Sheriff Walsh. No. I have no interest in any tavern. 

Mr. Greene. No, sir ; none. 

The Chairman. Or in any business, except corporate stocks ? 

Sheriff Walsh. That is right. 

The Chairman. Where do you live ? You say you sold your home. 

Sheriff Walsh. I live on the South Side, 1500. 

The Chairman. Just a rented home ? 

Sheriff Walsh. I am living in an apartment now. 

The Chairman. Where do you live. Chief ? 

Mr. Greene. Apartment 33'33 West Birdsall. I liave lived there for 
121/^ years. 

The Chairman. Are you a man of means ? 

Mr. Greene. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You have no income except salary ? 

Mr. Greene. That is right. 

The Chairman. Married and have a family ? 

Mr. Greene. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen. Thaiik you. 

( Discussion off the record. ) 

The Chairman. Back on the record. 

Besides Calumet City, what are the worst spots in the county ? 

Mr. Greene. You mean the places themselves ? 

The Chairman. No, the sections or the towns. 

Mr. Greene. The towns would be Melrose Park, that would be one. 

The Chairman. Where else? 

Mr. Greene. And Forest Park. That is about all of the towns. Of 
course, Calumet City, which you know about. Those are the three 
towns. 

Sheriff Walsh. And Cicero. 

Mr. Greene. Yes, Cicero. That is right. 

The Chairman. Anything else ? 

Mr. Halley. Nothing else. 

Sheriff Walsh. Senator, may I have this made a part of the record 
here ? It is a factual statement. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. We will file this as exhibit No. 32. 

(The booklet referred to, Let's Look at His Record, was identified 
as exhibit No. 32, and is on file with the committee.) 

Sheriff Walsh. Thank you, gentlemen. 

The Chairman. Thank you. Sheriff, and thank you, Chief. 

(Witnesses excused.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Bennett, have you been sworn ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Bennett. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275 

TESTIMONY OF HUGO BENNETT, SURFSIDE, ELA. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you state your full name? 

Mr. Bennett. Hugo Bennett. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you always had that name i 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Your name has been changed i 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Wliat was it originally i 

Mr. Bennett. Hugo Benvenuti. 

Mr. Robinson. What is your address? 

Mr Bennett. 9517 Carlisle Avenue, Surf side, 1^ la. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that your permanent and legal residence i 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; it is. . r^-i • o 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have a residence m Chicago « 

Mr. Bennett. No. . . , , 

Mr. Robinson. Do you file your returns m Florida < 

Mr R^oBixSi. Mr. Bennett, you did produce certain books and 
records and canceled checks, and so forth, when we talked the other 
day. Do you have any other records? 

Mr Robinson. I believe you mentioned there was some records that 
weie not produced that youVould look for. Do you have those records 

'' Mr.^BENNETT. Yes; I think I have what we talked about. You 
asked for the mortgages. I got those. 

Mr. Robinson. That is right. 

Mr. Bennett. And the notes. 

Mr. Robinson. I believe there were two mortgages. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. And the notes. 

The Ch\ikman. Let us identify them and get on here. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you state what the first mortgage is? 

Mr. Hallet. Identify that. -n „„i. 

Mr. Bennett. This is a first mortgage on property at Long Beach, 
Ind., belonging to Paul DeLucia. 

The Chapman. Wliat is the date of it, so we caii identity it^ 

Mr Bennett. The date of it is the 22d day of June 1948. _ 

Mr. Robinson. Are those original mortgages or are they copies i 

Mr. Bennett. No ; these are the originals. 

:Mr. Robinson. Is that the original note? 

Mr. Bennett. This is the original note. 

Mr. Robinson. May I take a look at them? 

(Documents handed to Mr. Robinson.) 

Mr Robinson. \Vliat is the second document that you have? 

Mr* Bennett. The second document is the second mortga_ge on the 
property of Paul and Nancy DeLucia at Kendall County, ill. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the date of that mortgage ? . 

Mr. Bennett. The date of that mortgage is— have I got these mixed 

^^^Mr. Robinson. This is June 22, 1948, the first one. 
Mr. Bennett. May 17, 1950. 



276 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. KoBiNSON. May I look at those, please ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, sir. 

(Documents handed to Mr. Robinson.) 

Mr. Robinson. Where are you employed, Mr. Bennett ? 

Mr. Bennett. I am auditor of the Miami Beach Kennel Club and 
the National Jockey Club. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any connection with the tracks in Chi- 
cao;o? 

Mr. Bennett. With other tracks? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, yes. Well, for the present, I also am employed 
at Hawthorn. 

Mr. Robinson. What is your position there ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I just handle its parking. 

Mr. Robinson. What is your salary from the clubs? 

Mr. Bennett. From the clubs ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. Bennett. It is $9,000 at the Miami Beach Kennel Club, and 
$6,000 at the National Jockey Club. And 

The Chairman. The National Jockey Club is Sportsman's Park out 
here? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. How did vou obtain employment at Sportsman's 
Park? 

Mr. Bennett. I was out of a position in 1932, and just came into the 
place and applied for a job. It just happened that they needed some- 
body. I spoke to Mr. O'Hare at the time. It was a sort of temporary 
thing at first. It was just sort of a temporary thing at first. He liked 
my work and kept me on after that. 

Mr. Robinson. Did anyone sponsor you for that job ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. When were you first employed there? 

Mr. Bennett. It was in May 1932. 

Mr. Robinson. Are you responsible for keeping the books and rec- 
ords of that park ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. So far as your own personal records are concerned, 
do you keep any record of cash receipts and disbursements, and that 
sort of thing ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you supervise the auditing at other tracks be- 
sides those that you have named ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any connection with the auditing work 
at any other track other than those that you have named ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; the only connection I have is just in a sort of ad- 
visory capacity, if something in the line of a tax matter comes up or 
anything like that. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you receive any compensation for that? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. I did. I don't believe I did last year or the 
year before. From two other tracks. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other records? It just occurred to 
me when we talked the other day, Mr. Bennett, you were goiug to 
furnish a list of your stock holdings. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277 

]Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I have that right here. 

(Document handed to Mr. Robinson.) 

Mr. Robinson. You have added to that list, I note, the amount that 
you paid for the stock at the time of acquisition. 
* Mr. Bennett. That is right, the amount of money that the stock 

cost me. 

The Chairman. That will be filed as exhibit No. 33. 

(Exhibit No. 33 appears in the appendix on p. 1383.) 

Mr. Robinson. What did you state your salary to be from Sports- 
man's Park ? 

:Mr. Bennett. $6,000. I want to correct that. It is $6,000, but we 
have two charity meetings there. 

Mr. Robinson. Two what ^ 

Mr. Bennett. Charity meetings. We have two extra meetings 
there. One is for the Chicago Tribune Charities, and one is for the 
Herald- American and the Daily News. I do get extra compensation 
from those two meetings. So 'it will probably show that I received 
more than $6,000 from the National Jockey Club. 

Mr. Robinson. I understood in our interview the other day you 
stated vour salary as auditor for Sportsman's Park to be $22,500. 

Mr. Bennett. No. You asked me how much money do I make in 
salaries, and I looked at my tax return and I said $22,000, approxi- 
mately $22,000. 

Mr. Robinson. That is your salary from all the clubs ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. How much do you make out at Hawthorn? 

Mr. Bennett. That is $25 a day. 

Mr. Robinson. Outside of the stock that you have submitted on this 
list here, do you own any other property? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 1 have listed there the property that I own. 

IVIr. Robinson. The real estate that you own? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. That includes a house in Florida ? 

Mr. Bennett. The house in Florida, yes, and I have the original 
cost there ; and a house in Saugatuck, Mich., a cottage. 

Mr. Robinson. You have listed what improvements you have put 
into the house ? 

Mr. Bennett. Approximately. That is only a guess. _ 

Mr. Robinson. ISIr. Bennett, do you know Paul DeLucia? 

]Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, quite a long time. I can't saj' exactly when 
I first remember him. It was since I was a child, practically. 

Mr. Robinson. How frequently do you see him, as a general rule? 

Mr. Bennett. Not too frequently. 

Mr. Robinson. How frequently have you seen him since he has 
been out of the penitentiary ? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, I would say about 7 or 8 times. 

Mr. Robinson. What were the occasions for those meetings? 

Mr. Bennett. In connection with these loans. 

JSIr. Robinson. Do you see him socially ? 

Mr. Bennett. Not very much ; but I have seen him socially, also. 

Mr. R; )Bi:'TS:iN. Did you visit him when he was in prison ? 

Mr. Bennett. No : I did not. 



278 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN mrTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Did you correspond' with him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I did not. 

Mr, Robinson. Prior to his going to prison, did you see him very 
frequently ? 

Mr, Bennett. No. 

Mr. Robinson. On social occasions or other occasions? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; on some social occasions. 

Mr. Robinson. How frequently would it be? 

Mr, Bennett, Well, I would say every time I would come in town, 
I would pay him at least one or two social visits, 

Mr. Robinson. Would that be at his farm or would it be here in 
town ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; in town here. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you see him frequently at the Sportsman's 
track ? 

Mr. Bennett. I have never seen him at the Sportsman's track. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have a safe deposit box, Mr. Bennett ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Robinson. Where is that? 

Mr. Bennett, I have one at the Miami Beach First National Bank 
in Miami Beach, Fla., and I have one at the Cicero State Bank in 
Cicero, 111. 

Mr. Robinson. What do you keep in those boxes ? 

Mr. Bennett. Papers, mostly papers, and in one box I have a little 
cash. 

Mr. Robinson. How much? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, about a thousand dollars. 

Mr. Robinson. What banks do you ordinarily do business with ? 

Mr. Bent ett. Mercantile National Bank. 

Mr. RoBi ►rsoN. That is where? 

Mr. Ben k^ett. That is in Miami Beach. That is the only bank I 
do business . with. 

Mr. RotAnson. Mr. Bennett, would you relate the circumstances 
connected with your first loan to Mr. DeLucia ? 

Mr. BEWNErr. Well, as I understood it, he needed some money to 
make improvements on his farm 

Mr. Robinson. Let's take it up in as much detail as we can. Did 
he get in touch with you, and how ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; he did. I don't remember exactly, but I be- 
lieve he called me at home, at my home here, my mother-in-law's 
home, I should say, here, where I stay when I am in town here. I 
went to visit him, and he mentioned what his problems were about 
making these improvements at the farm; that now that he was out 
and on parole, he was going to center on the farming business. He 
said he was going to need some money. He asked me if I could do 
anything for him in that line, and I asked him if there wasn't any 
other way that he could borrow money. He said, well, he would try. 
He said there was not particular rush about this. 

Mr. Robinson. How much did he want to borrow ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, at the time, he said he would need about 
$60,000, or something like that. He said he thought that would meet 
his needs. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have that ainount of money? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't. 



O'RGAjSnrZEO CRIME IN rNTE;RSTATE COMMERCE 279 

Then I just left to^Yn, Avhich I always do about the 1st of Decem- 
ber, and I went to Florida. - 1 came back in the si)ring. and in the 
spring we talked again about this loan. At that time I made hrni 
the loan. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. When you first talked to hnn, was there any hnal 
settlement as to what amount he did want or what amount you could 

get for him ? ,- • , i i i 

Mr. Bennett. No; there wasn't anything definite about tlie whole 
thino-, at all. He just thought that he was going to need this money. 

Mr. Robinson. How did the final sum of $40,000 get decided on? 

Mr. Bennett. He said he was going to need more than that. He 
said he was going to try to borrow money elsewhere, which I under- 
stand he did try. The sum of $40.000, 1 think, was arrived at because 
that is about all the security he could oifer at the time. 

Mr. Robinson. Was there any discussion about what the security 
was going to be? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; about that time we discussed that. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the discussion ? 

Mr. Bennett. I asked him what he could offer for security, and he 
told me that he could offer this place in Long Beach, which he w^ould 
try to sell then. 

Next, if I remember correctly, when we first talked about the thing, 
he was going to try to sell the home immediately. AVhen I came back 
in the spring, he hadn't sold it yet. 

Mr. Robinson. Did he have a mortgage on it at that time, do you 
know ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; he didn't. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you inyestigate to find out ? 

Mr. Bennett. My attorney investigated all that. 

I also told him to investigate and see if there w^ere any Govern- 
ment liens on it. 

Mr. Robinson. You were satisfied that it was good collateral? 

Mr. Bennett. I was satisfied it was good collateral; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall at what time the loan was made? 

Mr. Bennett. It was in the spring of 1948, I believe, the first 
loan. 

]Mr. Robinson. Did you take the money from your own funds to 
make the loan ? 

Mr. BENXE-rr. I borrowed most of it. I borrowed $20,000 from Mr. 
Johnston. 

Mr. Robinson. "\Mio is he ? 

Mr. Bennett. He is the president of Sportsman's Park. I bor- 
rowed $15,000 from Mr. Silverberg. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you give any note to Mr. Johnston? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I gave him a note, and I gave him collateral, 
a^so. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the collateral that you gave him ? 

Mr. Bennett. I gave him the stock certificate of the National 
J ockey Club. 

Mr. Robinson. How many shares? 

Mr. Bennett. One hundred eighty shares, but I only gave him 146 
s aares as collateral. 

Mr. Robinson. I don't follow you. You said you had 180 shares? 



280 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; 180 shares. I gave him 146 shares as collateral. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. You got $15,000 from Mr. Silverberg? 

Mr. Bennett. Max Silverberg; yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Who is he? 

Mr. Bennett. He is the concessionaire at Arlington Park, Wash- 
ington Park, and Sportsman's Park, and several other places. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Did you give a note to him for that? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; I did. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Did you give him any collateral ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Robinson. No collateral whatsoever was put up for that loan ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; there wasn't. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the conversation with Mr. Johnston when 
you made the loan from him ? 

Mr. Bennett. I just told him I had to make an investment and I 
wanted to borrow $20,000. I told him I could offer him collateral 
lor it. 

Mr. Robijv^son. How about Mr. Silverberg? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, Mr. Silverberg had loaned me money on pre- 
vious occasions, and he didn't want any collateral. He said it wasn't 
necessary. He would just lend me the money without any collateral. 

Mr. Robinson. Wliere did the other $5,000 come from ? 

Mr. Bennett. My own funds, personal funds. 

Mr. Robinson. How was that $40,000 made i^ayable to Mr. 
DeLucia ? 

Mr. Bennett. There Avas a check for $10,000, my personal check 
for $10,000, and there was a cashier's check — to the Lest of my recol- 
lection, a cashier's check in the amount of $30,000 that was written 
at tlie Mercantile National Bank in Miami Beach. Tliat is to the 
best of my recollection. I am sure that is what it was. 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Bennett, I want to show you. this canceled check, 
dated May 5, 1948. Is that the first portion of the loan that you made 
to Mr. DeLucia, that $10,000 check ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. I thought at the time, when I gave 
him this check^ — he said there was no rush about it. He said, "Wait 
until you have all the money." I said, "As long as I have made the 
check out, just go ahead and keep it, and I will get the rest." 

Mr. Robinson. That check was made payable to Mr. DeLucia ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

]\Ir. Robinson. I show you a check dated June 17, 1948, made pay- 
able to the Mercantile Bank. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. I believe that is part of that $30,000 ; I am sure 
it is, in fact, that went to make up the $30,000 cashier's check that I 
made to Mr. DeLucia or his wife. I don't remember which. 

Mv. Robinson. Why was the check made out in that fashion and 
not the same as the first check ? 

Mv. Bennett. Because I was in Florida when this check was made 
out, and I was in Chicago when that first check was made out. This 
check was made out to the Mercantile National Bank because I was 
having a cashier's check made for $30,000. 

Mr. Robinson. Where did the other $10,000 come from ? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. Johnston. He loaned me that. 

Mr. Robinson. He loaned you the money and you put it in your 
account ; is that correct ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 281 

Mr Bennett. That is right. I put the first $10,000 in my account. 
I tMnk the second 10 ^vent in-I don't remember wliether it went m 
Ly Tccolmt or not, but anyway, I had it at the time that I wrote this 
check out. I think he wired it to me. 

Mr. Robinson. Who wired the money to you i 
Mr Bennett. Mr. Johnston. . . >^, • o 

Mr Robinson. Was Mr. Johnston here at the time, m Chicago? 
Mr. Bennett. No ; he was in Jacksonville at the time. 
Mr. Robinson. And you were here? 
Air Bfnnett And I was in Miami. . 

Mr. RoB^^^N. The point that I am trying to get at ,s where the 
Other f?;iO 000 came from. This represents ^^0,OUU. 

Mr Bennett. Well, mv bank statement will show a deposit of 
$10 000 the first 10 I borrowed; and the second 10 that I borrowed 
will show in that wire that come to the Mercantile ^^^Vf' M^l 948 
Mr. Robinson. Let me show you your bank statement for May 1948. 
You have a deposit there on what date, ot ^10,0UU « 
Mr. Bennett. May 6. a.. ^ nr^n 

The Chaibman. May 6, $10,000; May 17, $lo,000. 
Mr. Bennett. That is correct. ^ ^i, dji k nnn ^r^^ rp 

Mr. Robinson. The $15,000 deposit represents the $15,000 you re- 
ceived from Silverberg? 

Mr. IobTsS. Ind the $10,000 on May 10 ,vas a part of the $20,000 
you received from :Mr. Johnston? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. Oiinnnn? 

Mr Robinson. What did you do with the other $10,000 ? 
Mr Bennett. The other $10,000 was wired to me and the bank and 
I believe ft was the same dav that it came in that I went to the bank 
Lid made his $20,000 check out, and with that $10,000-1 believe they 
made a cashieil check to me when the wire ^^ -cenj,^^^^^^^ 
I think I endorsed that check m exchange for ^l^is $20 000 and that 
$10,000 that came by wire, I got a cashiers check for $30,000 which 
I sent to the attorney up here to finish up this deal. 
Mr Robinson. You do not have that check 

Mr Bennett. No. That is a cashier s check. ,i w. 

Mr. RcmLsoN. I will show you the bank statement for the latter 
r>n rt of Mav showing a deposit of $20,000. r^^^ . • 

'^ M,rBENNET?. I don't lee the deposit. That is a check. That is 

*M?E™x. Yes ; that is riglit. That is the check that you drew 
on the Mercantile Bank? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr Robinson. To Mr. DeLucia's account ^ 

5fr SbTX. To pay to Mr. DeLucia, to lend to Mr. DeLucia? 

Mr ioM^so" ^am'^lfoTing-you this check for May 19, 1950— 
¥l'e C^XmIn. A clS in the amount of $40,000 to Hugo Bennett 

^Tr'^Sxi^S.^Sffs mv wife. She made that check in Florida. 
I asked her to^ve the money wired to me. I have a copy of the wire 
to tte Continental Bank here. The Continental Bank in turn-I had 

68958 — 51— pt. » 19 



282 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

a casliier's check made when I got that money. That was on this 
second mortgage. 

Mr. Robinson. You liad a cashier's check drawn on that? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes. You see, this money was wired to me from 
Florida. There is the wire there. It was 'wired to the Continental 
Bank. 
Mr. Robinson. To your account? 

Mr. Bennett. To my account. I have no account there. 
Mr. Robinson. How did the $40,000 get into Mr. DeLucia's hands? 
Mr. Bennett. That was a check, a cashier's check also. I think I 
have the stub here. That cashier's check was made out at the Cicero 
State Bank. At any rate, they do have a record of it at the bank. 
Mr. Robinson. Was that check turned over to Mr. DeLucia ? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes. Mr. and Mrs. DeLucia both came to the bank^ 
and I gave them that check, because the wire was from the Continental 
to the Cicero bank. They met me at the bank, and I had a cashier's 
check made out at the bank for $40,000, and gave it to her right then 
and there, gave it to botli of them. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know what they did with it? 
Mr. Benneit'. I do not know Mliat they did with it. 
Mr. Robinson. You don't know whether that was deposited to their 
account, or whether they drew the sum out in cash? 

Mr. Bennett. I do not know. I just gave them that check. I 
might have that stub. I am not sure. That is a matter of record in 
the Cicero bank. 

The Chairman. Let me see if I understand this, now. You were 
up here, and your wife was in Florida ? 
Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

The Chairman. She wrote a check to you while in Florida, on May 
19, for $40,000. That was transferred' by wire to the Continental 
Illinois Bank & Trust? 

Mr. Bennett. The Continental Illinois National Bank. 
The Chairman. You got the cashier's check there for $40,000 ? 
^ Mr. Bennett. You see, the correspondent of the Cicero State Bank 
m Chicago is the Continental Illinois Bank & Trust Co., and the wire 
was sent to the Continental for the Cicero State Bank payable to my 
order. I think it is shown on that slip there that you have. 

Then I had this cashier's check made out at the bank 

The Chairman. At which bank? 

Mr. Bennett. At the Cicero State Bank, made payable to Nancy 
DeLucia. The money, I received from this wire. 

The Chairman. The Cicero Bank does not show on this yellow slip 
here. ^ 

Mr. Bennett. Well, some record will show, because that is the way 
t^^^money was wired. It was through the Continental Bank. 

Ihe Chairman. Anyway, you had the Continental pass it on to the 
Cicero bank? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then you got a check there to Nancy De Lucia ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Excuse me, Mr. Robinson. 

Mr. Robinson. Will you tell me something about Max Silverberg^ 
1 ou say he has the concession at Sportsman's Park ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; he does. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 283 

Mr. RoBiNsox. Wliat does he pay for that concession ? 

Mr. Bennett. Approximately $1,100 a day. 

Mr. Robinson. How long has he had it ? 

Mr. Bennett. He has had it ever since the track was opened in 1932. 

Mr. RoiiiNsoN. Did you assist him in any way in getting that con- 
cession ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Robinson. Is it by contract? 

Mr. Bennett. It is. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know what other concessions Mr. Silverberg 
has ? 

Mr. Bennett. He has the concessions at Arlington Park, Washing- 
ton Park, Miami Beach Kennel Club, Jacksonville Kennel Club, Asso- 
ciated Outdoor Clubs, and Orange Park Kennel Club. To the best of 
my recollection, that is all he has. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether he has any concession at Copa 
City or the Beachcomber ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Robinson. What business is your father in, Mr. Bennett 1 

Mr. Bennett. My father is an artist. 

My. Robinson. Is he also a friend of Mr. De Lucia? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. He has known him for years. 

Mr. Robinson. What were the terms of your loan with Mr. De 
Lucia, so far as interest payment is concerned ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, the first mortgage was made out so that the 
interest was payable annually, but evidently there was a misunder- 
standing about that, because it was Mr. De Lucia's wish that the 
interest would be payable at the end of the 5-year period. I believe 
the first mortgage was for 4 percent, and the second one for 3I/2. 

Mr. Robinson. The first note says 4l^ percent per annum. 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Robinson. Has that interest ever been paid 2 

Mr. Bennett. No ; it hasn't. 

Mr. Robinson. Has any new note ever been issued to reflect the 
change in the terms ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; there hasn't. 

Mr. Robinson. At the time the note was drawn, was there any clear 
understanding as to what the interest payment was to be 't 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, yes. I thought that is what it should be, around 
41/4. , I thought that was the prevailing rate. But later I found out 
that on mortgages of that size, they generally have a smaller interest 
rate. 

Mr. Robinson. Such as what ? , 

Mr. Bennett. About 3%. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that the present understanding, that he pays 31/- 
percent ? 

Mr. Bennett. On the second one ; yes. Not on the first one. 

Mr. Robinson. We are speaking about the first one. 

Mr. Bennett. The first one stands. 

Mr. Robinson. But there has been no interest payment on that ? 

Mr. Bexneit. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the oral agreement that you now have ? 

Mr. Bexxett. The he pay up all the interest at the end of the period, 
unless he sells the home and pays off the mortgage. 



284 ORGANIZED CRIME- IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. What is the period of the note? 

Mr. Bennett. Five years. 

Mr. Robinson. Wasn't it the original agreement that he pay noth- 
ing on the interest at all, and let it ride for 5 years ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Robinson. On the first mortgage ? 

Mr. Bennett. No : it wasn't. There was a sort of misunderstand- 
] ng. I understood that he was willing to pay it every year, but later he 
told me that he would prefer to pay it at the end of the 5-year period, 
and I said that would be perfectly all right. 

Mr. Robinson. Had you ever made any loans of that size before? 

Mr. Bennett. Not that size ; no. 

Mr. Robinson. How many loans have you made ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I have made one of $4,500. 

Mr. Robinson. With whom did yon negotiate that loan ? 

Mr. Benne'it. With one of my best friends, a fellow by the name of 
Furlong. 

The Chairman. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Bennett. Charles M. 

The Chairman. Wliere does he live? 

Mr. Bennett. Oak Park, 111. 

The Chairman. What does he do? 

Mr. Bennett. He is a Government employee. 

Mr. Hallet. Let's find out about what part of the Government 
Mr. Furlong worked for. 

Mr. Bennett. He is an electrician for the Federal Buildino- the 
new Post Office Building. *" 

Mr. Halley. The Federal Government? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. When did you lend him the money ? 

Mr. Bennett. In 1947. 

Mr. Halley. Has it been paid back ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, it hasn't been paid back. 

Mr. Halley. What is the interest rate on that loan ? 

Mr. Bennett. No interest rate. 

Mr. Halley. No interest at all ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. You have received no money back ? 

Mr. Bennetp. No, I haven't. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Mr. Furlong ? 

Mr. Bennett. I have known him about 27, about 25 years. 

The Chairman. Do you have any security for that loan ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I don't. 

The Chairman. You just loan somebody $4,600 ? 

Mr. Bennett. I have the note. He is going to build a house with 
the money. He loaned me money before. I was just repaying a 
favor. 

The Chairman. What is the next biggest loan you have made? 

Mr. Bennett. That is the only one. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall how much you had left in your bank 
at the time the second loan was made ? 

Mr. Bennett. At the time the second loan was made ? 

Mr. Robinson. That is right. 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, about $3,000 or so. 



0RGA2WZEC CRIME IjST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 285 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Did that leave you a little bit short of what your 
ordinary bank balance was? . ,.14!^ 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, but I had some money coming shortly attei 

that. 

Mr. Robinson. Where from ? . 

Mr. Bennett. Chicago Downs Association. 

Mr. Robinson. In what amount i 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, about $4,000. . -, , i 

Mr Robinson. Mr. Bennett, you say the only and sole reason why 
you made this loan to Mr. DeLucia was because of friendship i 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. . . , . 

Mr Robinson. Yet vou had never seen fit to visit him m prison or 
write to him, and had"^only infrequent association with him ^ 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. -.i at c-i 

Mr Robinson. When you discussed making a loan with xMr. bilver- 
berg, you gave no indication of why you wanted that money ( 

Mr.' Bennett. No, I didn't. 

Ur. Robinson. Or with Mr. Johnston, either? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I did not. -^ ^- . 

Mr. Robinson. Doesn't it sound like a rather peculiar situation to 

^"^Mr Bennett. Well, the thing was, Mr. DeLucia sort of pleaded his 
case with me, tliat he was looking for somebody who had a good 
reputation that he could deal with. I guess he didn't know who else 
to turn to. and I wanted to help the man out. 

The Chairman. Let us get this straight, now Mr. Bennett, do you 
mean that you approached Mr. Johnston and borrowed $20,000 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, sir. ^ i -4. j; ,,9 

The Chairman. And he did not ask you what you wanted it toi « 

Mr Bennett. He asked me what I wanted it for. 

The Chairman. Did you tell him what you wanted it tor . 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't. I told him I wanted it for an invest- 
ment, an investment I wanted to make. , ., T 1 ^ 

The Chairman. AVithout your telling him what it was, he loaned 
you that much money ? 

:Mr. Bennett. Yes, he did. 

The Chairman. Did you ever borrow any big amount trom liim 

before ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. no big amount. i • i. -p ^? 

The Chairman. Did you ever borrow anything from him betore ? 
]\Ir Bennett. I may have, some small amount. 
The Chairman. But anyway, it was inconsequential amounts up to 

that time ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. _ , . -r i . ■ , ^9 

The Chairman. You have been paying Mr. Johnston interests 

j\[r. Bennett. No, I haven't. 

The Chairman. How old is that note? 

Mr Bennett. You mean Mr. Johnston's note? 

The Chairman. Yes, those notes that you gave him. 

Mr Bennett. That dates back to sometime m 1948. ^ _ , ^ , 

The Chairman. How much interest are you to pay Mr Johnston ? 

ISIr Bennett I don't believe there is any interest on that. 

The Chairman. You ought to know. Is he charging you interest, , 
or not ? 



286 ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. BENNE'rr. No, no. No, tliere is no interest on it. I am fairly 
certain there was no interest on that. 

The Chairman. Surely a man would not lend you $20,000 without 
any interest? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. Johnston and I have known each other for a long 
time, and have been quite friendly. I offered him collateral on it, and 
from the friendship standpoint I can very well understand why he 
wouldn't charge me interest. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he is going to charge you 
interest, or not ? * 

Mr. Bennp:tt. I am positive he isn't. The note doesn't say any- 
thing. I don't think the note says any interest. 

Mr. Robinson. Do 3^ou have a copy of the note ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I don't. 

Mr. Robinson. You never retained a copy of the note for $20,000 
that you gave to somebody else? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you retain a copy of the note that you gave to 
Mr. Silverberg? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't. J 

Mr. Robinson. Was that no interest, too? ^ 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Robinson. No interest payable? 

Mr. Bennett. No interest there, either. 

Mr. Robinson. What were the terms of the note ? 

Mr. Bennett. On demand. 

Mr. Robinson. Both notes on demand? 

Mr. Bennett. I think they are both payable on demand, yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't you see fit to retain a copy of either one of the 
notes, for $35,000? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. I never have retained copies of notes. 

Mr. Robinson. How would you prove the situation in case Mr. Sil- 
verberg died ? How would he collect ? 

Mr. Bennett. I owe him. He doesn't owe me. 

Mr. Robinson. That is right. He has the original of the note, but 
you didn't retain a copy of it, is that right? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr, Robinson. Why did you tell Johnston you wanted the money to 
make an investment? 

Mr. Bennett. It was a natural thing for him to ask me what I was 
going to do with it, and I said I had an investment I wanted to make. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you consider this an investment? 

Mr. Bennett. I considered it more of a favor than an investment. 

Mr. Robinson. Then you didn't tell Mr. Johnston the truth ? 

Mr. Bennett. That could be. 

Mr. Robinson. Has Mr. Johnston been a friend of yours for some 
years? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Is it a habit of yours not to tell a friend the truth? 

Mr. Bennett. Well 

Mr. Robinson. What I am getting at- 



Mr. Bennett. Mr. Johnston wouldn't approve what I did, that is 
all. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERCE 287 

Mr. Robinson. If you told him the circiimstcinces under which the 
loan Avas made, would he approve? • p , i 

Mr. Bennett. I guess Mr. Johnston wouldn t approve it he knew 
who I made the loan to. ^ , i 

Mr. Robinson. Isn't it a fact that Mr. Johnston knew you were 
making the loan to Mr. DeLucia? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Robinson. You say that under oath? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. ^ ,r o-i u 

Mr. Robinson. You say the same thing so far as Mr. bilverberg is 

concerned ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Robinson. That is all I have. 

Mr. Halley. How did you finance the 1950 loan i 

Mr. Benneit. My own money. i -.n-n? 

Mr. Halley. You had acquired $40,000 between 1948 and 19o0? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How did you acquire it? Did your income increase 

anV? . ^ rrM 

Mr. Bennett. No. Yes; my Income increased. • Ihere was one 
deal that i went in on several years ago that left me a $28,000 profit. 

Mr. Halley. ^Vlien did you get the $28,000 profit ? 

Mr. Bennett. I got part of it in 1949 and part of it m 1950. 

Mr. Halley. What deal was that? 

Mr. Benneto. That was the sale of land. I had a 25-percent inter- 
est in land belonging to the Miami Beach Kennel Club, -r 1 ^ 9 

Mr. Halley. That was the deal you were m on with Bill Johnston? 

Mr' Bennett. That is correct ; and many others. 

Mr. Halley. Was the whole land sold, or just your part? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; the whole parcel was sold. 

Mr. Halley. And everybody was paid their share? 

Mr. Bennett. Everybody was paid the same share. 

Mr. Halley. You got your share that way ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, sir. ^. . ,r -r^ t • 

Mr. Halley. Wliat happened in 1950? Did Mr. DeLucia come 

back to see you again? 

Mr. Bennett. He didn't come to see me. I went to see him. 

Mr. Halley. You went to his farm ; is that correct? 

Mr Be^^nett. No ; I think I went to his house. 

The Chairman. Before you proceed, what was this 1949 deal? 1 
believe you brought this in. What is that? [Hancbng document to 
the witness.] 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. What was that amount? ,..,,. , ,o . 

Mr Bennett. That is a capital gain. It was divided m halt, ot 
course; it was a capital gain in the amount of $13,974.82, the taxable 

portion of it. . „ i 

The Chairman. It is described here as net gam from sale or ex- 
change of capital assets, $18,974.82. 

Mr. Halley. Where is the schedule attached ? . 

Mr Bennett. I couldn't find it. I don't know. They usually give 
you just one with your tax return, and it is quite possible that I didn t 
have a copy. 



288 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hallfa'. You did file such a schedule, though, is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. We definitely did. 

Mr. Halijsy. So you got $26,000 or $28,000 out of that? 

Mr. Bennett. I also got my original investment back. 

Mr. Hai.ley. Then in June of 1950, Ricca called you ; is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. To the best of my recollection. I don't remember 
whether he called me or whether I went to see him. 

Mr. Halley. Where were you when he asked you to come to see him? 
Were you here in Chicago ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't remember whether he asked me to come to 
see him, or w^iether I just went to see liim, but when I first saw him I 
was in Chicago here. 

Mr. Halley. He said he needed another $40,000? 

Mr. Bennett. He told me from the very beginning that he was going 
to need more money, and lie had tried, I believe, during the year 1949, 
to try to get a loan from the Prudential Life Insurance Co. for about 
$65,000, 1 believe. I presume he would have liked to borrow more than 
he did, but that is all I could loan him at the time. 

Mr. Halley. When you loaned him the second $40,000, that left 
you with about $1,000 in the bank ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; it left me with more than that. 

Mr. Halley. Let's get the bank statement for 1950. I see a check 
on May 19 for $40,000, and a deposit the same day of $1,100, and a 
balance at the end of that month of only $3,400; is that right? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. What would that have left you in the bank? 

Mr. Bennett. $3,400. 

Mr. Halley. You made a deposit, after you made the loan, of $1,100, 
is that right ? It left you about $2,400, is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. My wife was in Florida at the time, and I talked to 
her on the telephone, and I asked her, "What is our balance?" She 
told me it was over $3,000 after the $40,000. 

Mr. Halley. What other assets do you have at this time, in addition 
to the cash in the bank ? 

Mr. Bennett. I have my home. 

The Chairman. Let us see that schedule. 

Mr. Halley. The home cost $8,000; is that right? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. You list improvements on it of $3,000? 

Mr. Bennett. Approximately. That is just a guess. 

Mr. Halley. You have some lots worth $3,650 ; is that right? 

Mr. Bennett. That is M'hat I paid for them. 

Mr. Halley. When did you buy the lots? 

Mr. Bennett. I bought the lots, one was bought a w^ay back about 
1941 or 1942. The other one was bought in 1949, I believe. 

Mr. Halley. Then you have a summer residence that cost $5,000; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. Now, you have some stock ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. You have, yourself and your wife, 1,100 shares in the 
Miami Beach Kennel Club ; is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 289 

-\\v TT4TTFY What is tlie value of that stock? i ^. t 

fir. Bennkxt I don't know what the vah.e is. I know what I 

paid for it. <; •^? 

Mr Halley. What did you pay for it < 
Mr Bennett. Whatever it shows there. 
Mr! Halley. $940? 
Mr. Bennett. No. $9,400. 
Mr. Halley. $9,400? 

Mr. &T-Y™'have"sf ock in the National Jockey Ch.b that cost 

$2 475 ? 

kr. Bennett. $24,000. 

Mr. Halley. $24,750? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. r»„f/lo^r. Plnbc! for 

Mr. Halley. You have stock in the Associated Outdoor Clubs tor 

$400 ? 

Mr. ^.^"^'Ziin the Orange Park Kennel Club for $750? 
Mr. HXT'Ald'in the Jacksonville Kennel Club for $1,200? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes .. -r, i 4; ojoqaa? 

Mr. Halley. The Narragansett Park for $2,d00 i 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. j; <tinn9 

Mr Halley. And the Chicago Downs for $100 i 

Mr Bennett. $100 ; yes. It cost $100. . 

Mr. TUlley. And the Eastern Gas & Fuel common, $250; is that 

right ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Fifty shares? 

Mr hTl^^'tIosc are your total assets, in addition to the note 
from Charles Furlong forV,500, and whatever cash you have; is 

Mr Bennett. That is right, plus a small note of $300. 

Mr. hIlley Then youVe $35,000 to Silverberg and Jolmston 

against these assets ? 

Mr Bennett. That is correct. . 

Mr. Halley. When you went to the home of Ricca, was it a more 
modest home than yours ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, it w^asn't. ■ -^ .0 

Mr. Halley. It is a very elaborate home, is it not i 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Had you seen his farm i 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. • •. ^0 

Mr. Halley. It is a very elaborate farm, is it not i 

Mr. Bennett. It is a nice farm. • v -^9 

Mr. Halley. It is worth about half a million dollars, isn t it? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. A very nice farm ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. , . 

Mr Halley. It is a luxury farm, is it not ^ 

Mr. Bennett. I wouldn't say that. It seemed to be an ordinal^ 
farm to me. 



290 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. It has a great many improvements on it that have 
been put on in tiie last few years, has it not ? 

Mr. BENNE'rr. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Ricca drives a new Cadillac, doesn't he? 

Mr. Bennett. I guess so. I don't know. I don't know what he 
drives. 

Mr. Halley. You ha^e seen him, haven't you ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, but I don't knoAv what he drives. 

Mr. Halley. You never even saw his automobile ? 

Mr. Bennett. I paid no particular attention to what kind of 
automobile he had. 

Mr. Halley. What kind of an automobile do you have ? 

Mr. Bennett. A Pontiac. 

Mr. Halley. You have a Pontiac? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When did you buy it ? 

Mr. Bennett. I bouglit it in 1948—1949. 

Mr. Halley. 1949 ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other automobiles? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What other automobile have you? 

Mr. Bennett. A Pontiac. 

Mr. Halley. Two Pontiacs ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Both bought in 1949 ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. One in 1950. 

Mr. Halley. One in 1950 ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And one in 1949 ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other automobiles ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. E-icca also has another residence, has he not? 

Mr. Bennett. You mean the one in Long Beach ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is that a rather elaborate residence ? 

Mr. Bennett. I should say it is. 

Mr. Halley. What was 3^our income 

The Chairman. Just a minute, now. 

Tliis Long Beach residence — he has a second mortgage on that, has 
he not, or a first mortgage ? 
Mr, Bennett. First. 

The CJtairman. What did you figure that place was worth? 
Mr. Bennett. Oh, about $75,000. 
The Chairman. No mortgage ? 

Mr. Halley. No mortgage. It is paid off. I think that is the 
testimony. 

The Chairman. How about the loan 

Mr. Kerner. Here is the mortgage. 

Mr. Halley. On the Long Beach. That is your own mortgage, isn't 
that, on the Long Beach ? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 291 

Mr. Halley. But you had no mortgage on the home ? 
Mr. Bexnett. You mean his home in River Forest ? 
Mr. Halley. Yes. 
Mr. Bennett. Oh, no. 
Mr. Halley. No mortgage on that? 
Mr Bennett. No, I didn't have a mortgage on that. 
Mr. Halley. You have, of course, a mortgage on the farm< 
Mr. Bennett, Yes. 

The C'hairman. Where is Long Beach ? 
Mr. Bennett. Indiana. 

The Chairman. Is that just a residence, a summer home? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes, but it is quite an elaborate summer home. It 
has quite an elaborate swimming pool and tennis courts, beautiful 

landscaping. . £ .a 4.- o 

The Chairman. Does Mr. DeLucia live there part ol the time? 
Mr Bennett. He used to live there. 
The Chairman. Did you see about the insurance on that property ? 

Do you have the insurance policy ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I haven't. , . . . -, . o 

The Chairman. Do you know how much it is insured tor ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I don't. . „ ... ^^ 

The Chairman. Have you seen about or had any talk with Mr. 

DeLucia about insurance at all ? 

J^Ir. Bennett. I left those matters entirely up to my attorney to 

The Chairman. You mean you loaned $40,000 on a house at Long 
Beach, and you do not know anything about whether it is insured or 
anything else ? 

Mr. Bennett. I have been there. I have seen the home, and 1 have 
checked it ; but my attorney was to check everything for me. I left 
those things entirely up to the attorney to see that everything is m 
order, that^I am fully protected. 

The Chairman. Who is living at the home now ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't believe anybody is, right now, as I under- 
stand it. 

The Chairman. Excuse me, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. What was your income m 1949, aside from that real 

estate sale ? 

Mr. Bennett. About $22,000 in salaries. I can't say offhand what 
the dividends would approximate, but I should say there was better 
than $10,000 in dividends. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have the income tax return form ? 

Mr Bennett. It is here. You can get it from that. 

]Mr. Halley. You show a total of $49,000 less the capital gam of 
$13,000. is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is riaht. 

Mr. Halley. That would be $36,000? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. On that you paid a tax of $15,000 ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Leaving you a net of $21,000 on Avhich to live m 1949. 
Would that be correct? 

Mr. Bennett. It must be. 

Mr. Halley. Is your income in 1950 about the same ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. I think it will be about the same. 



292 O'RGANIZED CRIME: in INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Are you married ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, I am. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have cliildren? 

Mr. Bennett. One child. 

Mr. Halley. One child. Is your child in school ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. College? 

Mr. Bennett. No. He is 61/2. 

Mr. Halley. Six and a half. 

Mr. DeLucia had all these assets. Did you feel that you were a man 
of the type of means to lend $80,000 to Mr. DeLucia ? Where did you 
rank as the lender of that kind of money to a man worth the money 
that Mr. DeLucia had ? 

Mr. Bennett. As I said before, it looked to me like that I was the 
only person he could turn to. So I really went out of my way to do 
him a favor. 

Mr. Halley. How is that even possible? He had two residences 
and the farm and, as you know, a great deal of cash. 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know Avhat he had in cash. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know that he had a great deal of cash ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know what cash he had. I never questioned 
him. 

Mr. Halley. Would you be surprised to know that he had $300,000 
in cash in a box? 

Mr. Bennett. That is what I read in the newspapers. 

Mr. Halley. Where would you come in to lend him $80,000 ? What 
would he need $80,000 from you for, a relatively poor man? Can you 
answer that? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I don't know what he needed it for, but he 
told me what he needed it for, and that is what I gave it to him for. 

Mr. Halley. As of today, j^our net worth, aside from that loan, is 
about $15,000, isn't it? 

The Chairman. $25,000. 

Mr. Halley. $25,000? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I would say my stocks would be worth more 
than that, and my home. 

Mr. Halley. Taking them at their cost value, and as a bookkeeper 
you know that is the only way you can do it, it is about $25,000, 
isn't it? 

Mr. Bennett. I would say it is more than that. 

The Chairman. It must be in the neighborhood of $40,000. 

Mr. Halley. But he owes $35,000. 

The Chairman. Well, roughly, the purchase price of his stocks here 
would be $40,000. His home would be $10,000 or $15,000. Tliat is 
$60,000. He owes $35,000. 

Mr. Halley. That is $25,000, except for the money that is owed to 
you? 

Mr. Bennett. Except for that money ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat did Ricca ever do for you ? 

Mr. Bennett. Nothing. 

Mr. Halley. What did his father ever do for you? 

Mr. Bennett. His father? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Bennett. I never knew his father. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



293 



Mr. H ALLEY. Did his family ever do anything for you? 

Mr. Bennett. Xo. ^, r n- 9 

Mr. H.U.LEY. Do you know Charhe (jioe i 

Mr! Bennett. No, I don't know him. 

Mr. Halley. You never met him ? 

Mr. Benneti\ No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Campagna i 

Mr. Benneit. No. 

Mr. Halley. Never met him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 7 -o u 9 

Mr Halley. How did vou get vour ]ob at Sportsman s 1 aik< 

Mr! Benneit. I applied for a job at that time I was very much 
in need of a job. I just went out to the race track like many others, 
and asked for a job in the mutuel department. However, I told them 
that I was an accountant, and if there was any need for anyone in 
the office, I would be glad to work in the office. It ]ust happened 
that they were in need of somebody, and so I was put to work. My 
salary there was $30 a week when the track wasn t operating, and 
$50 a week when the track operated. . ,i xr 1 ri,,K 

Mr. Halley. Did you also get a ]ob down at the Kennel Llub 
simultaneously ? 

]SIr. Bennett. No. . i /^i uo 

Mr Halley. When did vou first get a ]ob m the Kennel Clubi 

Mr Bennett. Mr. O'Hare. in the fall of the year, said ^1 like your 
work very much, and I would like you to come down to Florida with 

us."' 

Mr. Halley. This is Eddie O'Hare? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first meet O'Hare ? 

Mr. Bennett. At the track. 

Mr. Halley. In those days, did you ever see Ricca ? 

Mr. Bennett. I never saw him. 

Mr. Halley. In 1932, 1933, and 1931? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I didn't see him in those days. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't see much of him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

:Mr Halley. When did vou begin to see much ot him i 

Mr. Bennett. I don't remember exactly when. I never did see 
much of him. I onlv paid very occasional visits to the man. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever visit your house? 

:Mr. Bennett. My father's house. I never had a home here. 

Mr! Halley. Did he visit your father's house in Chicago? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is your father still alive? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; he is. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever vist your house m Florida ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; he didn't. 

Mr. Halley. How often would you say you saw Kicca between 194J 
and 1944 or 1945 ? , . ^ 

Mr. Bennett. I generally saw him about once every time i came 

to Chicago. 

Mr. Halley. You would go to his home? , , t m 

Mr Bennett. I may have visited him more than that, but 1 would 

say tiiat would be it, every time I dropped into town I would pay 

him a visit. 



294 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. How often did you come to Chicago ? 

Mr. Bennett. Twice a year. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know that Ricca was a friend of Ed O'Hare's? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't know that. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John Patton ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you meet John Patton? 

Mr. Bennett. At the race track. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Patton ? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. O'Hare. 

Mr. Halley. Patton was one of your bosses, is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Ricca and Patton together ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I never have. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever tell Patton that you knew Ricca ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I never did. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever tell Eddie O'Hare that you knew Ricca? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I haven't. 

Mr. Halley. Is it your position that it is pure coincidence that you 
were with O'Hare and Patton and Johnston, and that Ricca was a good 
friend of yours ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. No connection between the fact that they were all 
members of the Capone gang, and the fact that you knew them all ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know anything about the Capone gang. 

Mr. Halley. You know nothing about the Capone gang ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I do not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever read the papers that Ricca was a member 
of the Capone gang ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, I have read it in the papers. 

Mr. Halley. Did you read in the papers that Ricca went to jail ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You knew he was in jail? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When he got out of jail, you were aware of what he 
had done, is that right? 

Mr. Bennett. Aware of what the newspapers said. 

Mr. Halley. Did you regard him as a good risk for $80,000 ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, a good security, as long as there is security 
for it. 

Mr. Halley. If he couldn't get rid of the security or raise any 
money on it, how could you ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, they wouldn't lend him any money, I guess, 
on his reputation from the newspapers. 

Mr. Halley. You know they loaned him money. He had a first 
mortgage on that farm from an insurance company. 

Mr. Bennett. I understand that he tried to borrow $65,000 from 
the Prudential Life Insurance Co., and he couldn't get it. 

Mr. Halley. But he had a first mortgage from the life insur- 
ance company, did he not ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever check with the insurance company? 

Mr. Bennett. No. My attorney must have checked. 



that? 



0'RGA^^[ZED CRIME I^^ Ds'TERSTATE COMMERCE 295 

Mr. Halley. He borrowed $11,000 from a bank? Did you know 

at? 

Mr Bennett. No, I didn't know that. 

Mr! Halley. Would you agree that he was able to raise money 

''ir;.''BENtE'r?'mil I don't know anything about his financial 

^^MfH-vLLEY. He testified under oath that he had $300,000. How 
does that jibe with your story? Would it appear that one of you 
is lying ? Would you go that far ? 

M[^ ILrLEEY'!''You testified, as I understood it, that he said he 

needed money. , 

Mr Bennett. That is what he told me. 

Mr H-.LLEY. If he had $300,000 in cash, would it appear to you 

''^t'^'CNEU" H^told me he needed this money over a long- 
it was a sort of long-range plan he had been telling me about on 
hilplan of his for"impi?)vements that were to be made. I knew 
that he went-that is. he definitely tolclme that he went to the 
Pnidentiri to try to borrow this money. What else am I to assume? 

Mr H LLEY. men did he tell you that, in 1948 or m 1950 ? 

Mr! Bennett. I think it was in 1949, either late m 1949 or m 

^^M;. Halley. You had already loaned him the first $40,000? 
INTr Bennett. That is correct. ^ ^^ , ^ ti i 

Mr. Halley. When he borrowed the first $40,000, what did he 

*^ Mr^^BENNETT. He just told me he was going to need some money. 
That is all he told me. „ , ,, 

Mr. Halley. He didn't tell you how much? 

Mr Bennett. Oh, yes. He said approximately $60,000 or $i0,- 
000 whatever the improvements were he was going to make on his 



farm. 

Mr 



Halley. Did he tell you he needed it right away? 

-KT 



'^r. r.LTl":hi nk yo„ testified you had the check fo*e first 
$10,000, and he said "Wait until you get the whole $40,000, is that 

"ilr ■ Bennett. That is right. As a matter of fact I tolk«l to him 
in September or October or sometime early in the fall of 194,, and 
it wasn-t until the spring that the loan was made. 

Mr H-r^ET. Avis it in the spring that he came and said, "Now, 

^ Mr^ BENTE^^'He talked about this from the very beginning 
as I remember it, that he was going to need money. He didnt 

'''?d'"H!?ir'\^,*hi"l948, was the money delivered? Did he 

^T'^Z.V^itl remember right, he said he was going to need 
the money, and I just wanted to get the thing over with, and gave 
it to him. 



296 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN I^"TERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hallet. You gave him tlie first $10,000 before you even 
had a note, didn't you ? 

Mr. Bennett. I did, yes. 

Mr. Halley. You trusted him to that extent ? 

Mr. Benneit, I thought he needed it in a hurry. When I gave 
him the $10,000, he said "You don't have to do that. "Wait until you 
have it all." 

Mr. Halley. By the "all," what did he mean? Had you then 
decided on how much you would give him ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. I decided on about $40,000 at that time. 

Mr. Halley. How did you decide that? Did he say he needed 
$40,000? 

Mr. Bennett. That is approximately what he said he needed 
at the time, and that is about all I could raise anyway at the time. 

Mr. Halley. If he testified here that at that time he had sev- 
eral hundred thousand dollars, and that he simply felt he w^anted 
to have a little more cash handy, w^ould it appear that he took ad- 
vantage of you? 

Mr. Bennett. Will you repeat that question ? 

Mr. Halley. He testified here that he had several hundred thou- 
sand dollars at that point, in cash, in a box, in his possession. If 
he told you he needed money badly at that time, was he telling 
you the truth ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't knoAv whether he was telling me the truth 
or not. 

Mr. Halley. What do you think ? 

Mr. Bennett. He told me he needed some money. 

Mr. Halley. It is obvious that he didn't, isn't it ? 

Mr. Bennett, I don't know whether he was telling me the truth 
or not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you tell him you had to go borrow it? 

Mr. Bennett. No, "I didn't. 

Mr. Halley. Why didn't you say that to him? What did he 
have on you ? 

Mr. Bennett. Nothing. 

]\lr. Halley. He had great assets, two homes, a farm, cash money. 
You liad to go borrow the money, and you didn't even say to the man^ 
"Look, if I lend you this money, I will have to borrow it" ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I guess it is my silly pride, or something. I 
just didn't do it. I just didn't say I didn't have it. 

Mr. Halley. $40,000 isn't something to be proud about. He could 
tell how much money generally you had. You didn't live like a very 
affluent man, did you? You were a salaried man, weren't you? 

]\Ir. Bennett. Yes. 

]VIr. Halley. I think that is all. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you tell him at the time where you were going 
to try to raise the money? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn^t. 

Mr. Robinson. How did you get the money from Johnston and 
Silverberg? Was it cash that they turned over to you? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I think Johnston gave me a check and weired me 
the second $10,000. 

Mr. Robinson. How^ did you get it from Silverberg ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 297 

Mr. Bkxxktt. Silverberg gave me a check. 

Mr. Kc)Kix>ox. Mr. Bennett, in 1947 you reported a gross income 
of about $;30,8H(>.05, and your bank statements indicate that you de- 
posited during that year '$84,221.38. How do you reconcile the dif- 
ference ': 

Mr. Bennett. That can't be. 

Ml'. KoBiNsoN. Did vou borrow money during that year? 

Mr. Bennett. li)47^ 

Mr. Roi5iNSON. 11)47. 

]\Ir. Bennett. Xo. There must be some mistake. 

Mr. Robinson. You didn't borrow any money during that year? 

]\Ir. Bennett. To tlie best of my recollection, I didn't. 

]Mr. Robinson. In 1948, 3'ou showed a gross income of $33,188.39, 
and your bank deposit slips show that you deposited seventy-thou- 
sand-some-odd dollars. 

Mr. Bennett. Will you repeat that again, now ? 

Mr, Robinson. In 1948, you showed a gross income of thirty-three- 
thousand-some-odd dollars. 

Mr. Bennett. Tliat is right. 

Mr. Robinson. And your bank deposits show that j^ou deposited 
$70,000. 

Mr. Bennett. That could be. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have anj' explanation for that difference ? 

Mr. Bennett. That could be. That is the year that I borrowed the 
$35,000. 

Mr. Robinson. That would possibly explain that. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. But I am sure there is some mistake about 
1947. 

The Chairman. Do you have the 1947 account there, Mr. Robin- 
son '. Read the computation again, and let's see if we understand it. 

Mr. Robinson. In 1947, you reported a gross income of $30,866.05, 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Your bank statements indicate you made deposits 
of $84,221.38. 

Mr. Bennett. It is impossible. It is impossible. There must be 
some mistake in the computation. 

The Chairman. See, j\Ir. Amis, if you can find that bank account. 

]Mr. Robinson. That is taken from his bank statements. 

The Chairman. Does this refresh your memory? Here are three 
deposits, one of $15,000 in January 1947, one apparently twenty-one- 
thousand-odd dollars in March, and another one twenty-eight- 
thousand-odd dollars in June. 

]Mr. Bennett, That doesn't refresh my memory; no. You have 
some deposit slips there, don't you ? Did you find any at all ? 

The Chairman. While lie is looking at those, let me ask you one 
or two things, Mr. Bennett. 

We want to get this matter straight, and it just does not stand up 
that you would be loaning a man $80,000, with your means, having 
to borrow $35,000 to do it, unless there is some special reason. You 
say you had known Mr. DeLucia some time, but you knew a lot of 
people as well as you knew him, did you not? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 5 20 



298 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairmax. You have a lot of friends who are as good friends 
as he is? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. Yet another one of your friends could come around 
and you certainly would not go to all of the trouble of borrowing 
$35,000 and tying up everything you have in one loan of $80,000? 
There must have been some special kind of friendship you had with 
him. 

Mr. Bennett. The reason is that the man seemed to be in a spot. 

The Chairman, xl lot of people get in a spot. A lot of your good 
friends are in spots off and on, are they not, but vou do not help fhem 
out ? 

Mr. Bennett. I haven't had anybody to be in that kind of spot be- 
fore. 

^The Chairman. Well, he was not suffering. He was not huno-ry. 
You could see that, could you not ? '^ 

Mr. Bennett. There is no question about that. 

The Chairman. He had a farm. He at least had a place to sleep 
and good things to eat. He had two homes. What sort of spot was 
he on ? ^Y}\iit was this spot he was on, and why did you go to such 
great sacrifice to come to his rescue ? 

^ Mr. Bennett. He had to deal with persons of good reputation. I 
]ust helped the man out because he told me what his position was. 

The Chairman. You tied your whole life's earnings up in one loan 
to a fellow who just wanted to make some improvements on his farm? 
Mr. Bennett. It doesn't happen to be all my money in this case. 
The Chairman. I know ; but you are responsible for it. 
What if he does not pay you ? Are you going to have to pay Mr 
Johnston and Mr. Silverberg just the same ? 
Mr. Bennett. Absolutely. 
The Chairman. Then it is your money, is it not ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, but 

The Chairman. It just doesn't ring true. You can tell us what the 
situation is. 

Mr. Bennett. There is no situation other than what I have already 
mentioned, that the man just told me he needed the money and he was 
m a spot to get it, and he told me he wanted to make this— I asked him 
'Why don't you sell the farm ?" when he first approached me about the 
loan. He said, "I am going to make this my work. This is going to be 
my business from now on." 

The Chairman. He was going to have a model farm, and you were 
willing to lend somebody that you did not know any better than you 
did a lot of other people $80,000 just to improve his farm ? 

Mr. Bennett. In the position the man was in, which was a little 
different from someone else. He was trying to make good after his 
parole. 

The Chairman. Did Mr. Johnston take this stock as collateral that 
you offered him ? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes. 
The Chairman. He has it now ? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes; he has. 
The Chairman. In Sportsman's Park ? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes, sir. 



ORGAIS-IZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 299 

« 

The Chairman. How many shares did he get? 
Mr. Bexnett. One hundred and eighty. . 

The CiiAiEMAN. The stock has a par vahie of only— you paid f or 
National Jockey Club $25,000 for 210 shares. He has one hundred 

and how many? t , -. ^r- i £ 

Mr Benxett. One hundred and eighty, but I had 2o shares from a 
way back when I paid $50 a share for that stock. That was purchased a 
way back in 1944, approximately. In other words, if I paid the market 
value on that, those first 25 shares 

The CiiAiRMAX. This was not even your stock. This belonged to 
Josephine, did it not? 

Mr. Bexxett. That is correct. 

The CiiAiRMAX. She transferred it to you ? 

Mr. Bexxett. She did. 

The Chairmax. As collateral ? 

Mr. Bexxett. That is right. 

The Chairmax. You took your wife's stock and put it up for col- 
lateral for a loan so you could lend money to a man who just wanted 
to improve his farm? . 

Mr. Bexxett. ^ly wife and I are together on everything, in busi- 
ness matters she leaves evervthing up to me. 

The Chairmax. Do you want to let this record state that you got 
yourself in this sort of situation without any more obligation to Mr. 
DeLucia than you have stated ? 

Mr. Bexxett. I have no obligation to him. 

The Chairmax. What did he have on you ? 

Mr Bexxett. Nothing. Nothing on me. What could he have ? 

The Chairmax. Do you know whether Mr. Johnston knew Mr. De- 
Lucia or not? 

Mr. Bexxett. As far as I know, he didn t. 

The Chairmax. Or Mr. Silverberg? 

Mr. Bexxett. xls far as I know, he didn't. 

The Chairmax. Do you know Harry Eussell ? 

Mr. Bexxett. No; I don't. 

The Chairmax. Have vou ever been m any trouble yourselt « ^ 

Mr. Bexxett. No— I got into a little trouble in Miami this winter 
in a traffic accident. • -i . 

The Chairmax. I mean outside of a traffic accident. 

Mr. Bexxett. Yes. About 25 or 26 years ago. 

The Chairmax. Wliat was that ? i . • 

Mr Bexxett. When I was about 20 years old. I was working m 
a restaurant, and somebodv came in and wanted some liquor. He 
was quite a big fellow. There was quite a big noise around the place. 
The cook said to give it to him, give him some of that liquor that the 
fellow who owned the place was drinking. So I gave it to him. Just 
as that happened, these policemen walked in; and I was arrested. 
The Chairmax. You paid a fine or were convicted ^ 
Mr. Bexxett. No ; I wasn't convicted. I was discharged. 
The Chairmax. You were discharged ? 
Mr. Bexxett. Yes. 

The Chairmax. Was that in Chicago? .- i ^v 

Mr Bexxett Yes. It was an incident that was entirely the crea- 
tion of someone else. I had absolutely nothing to do with it. it was 
forced. 



300 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INiTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Did Mr. DeLucia help you get out of that? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. White. Did they take your fingerprints at that time? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. White. Have you ever had your fingerprints taken ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. White. Not for any purpose whatsoever? 

Mr. Bennett, Not for anj^ purpose whatsoever. 

The Chairman. Were you born here in Chicago ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I wasn't. 

The Chairman. AVhere were you born? 

Mr. Bennett. I was born in Italy. 

The Chairman. Where? 

Mr. Bennett. In Naples. 

The Chairman. How old were you when you came over here ? 

Mr. Bennett. Six. 

The Chairman. When did you come to Chicago? 

Mr. Bennett. In 1910. 

The Chairman. Your family came directly here? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. How far did you live from the DeLucia's when 
you came here? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know. 

The Chairman. When do you first think you knew Mr. DeLucia? 

Mr. Bennett. I would say about 1915 or 1916, around that time. 

The Chairman. How far did you live from him then? 

Mr. Bennett. It may have been a block or two. I don't remember. 

The Chairman. Were your father and Mr. DeLucia ever in busi- 
ness together? 

Mr. Bennett. No; they weren't. 

The Chairman. Were there ever any business transactions between 
any part of your family and any part of his family ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

The Chairman. We are just trying to look for the extraordinary 
motive for this thing, Mr. Bennett. There must be some explanation 
of it. 

Mr. Bennett. I know, Senator, it is hard to believe, but there is 
no motive behind it. 

The Chairman. I mean explanation, how you happened to do this. 

Mr. Bennett. As the circumstances were put to me, I merely wenc 
out of my way to do somebody a favor. 

The Chairman. You admit that on the face of it, it looks very, very 
strange, that here you, a salaried man, without having the money your- 
self, would make a loan to a man with two homes and a farm, who just 
wanted to improve his farm, who never had done anything particu- 
larly for you, and you were not obligated to him. He said he wanted 
some money to improve his farm, and you would go to the extent of 
mortgaging your wife's stock, borrowing $35,000, and tying up a very 
substantial amount of your estate to lend him $80,000. You have not 
gotten any interest on it. 

Mr. Bennett. That is true. 

The Chairman. On your other investments, you put them in stocks 
and real-estate transactions, and you have gotten pretty good returns. 

Mr. Bennett. I expect to get the interest on it when it is due. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 301 

The Chairman. You do not even know whether the house is insured 
or not, how much it is insured for. f^^,.^^,, -Ra 

Mr Bennett. I left those things strictly up to the attorney. Me 
was supposed to check all of that. I presume that he did. 

Mr. Halley. What collateral did you give Silverberg^ 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't give any collateral. 

Mr. Halley. None at all ? 

Mr. Bennett. None at all. 

Mr. Halley. You just gave him a note? 

Mr. Bennett. That is all. 

Mr. Halley. No interest ? 

Mr. Bennett. No interest at all. 

Mr Halley. What did vou tell Silverberg? 

Mr. Bennett. I just told him I needed it for an investment. 

Mr. Halley. And he just gave it to you? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he give you a check or cash i 

Mr. Bennett. He gave me a check. .^ , , . 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any agreement to pay it back at any 

particular time? , -r . i i i • t ^A 

Mr Bennett. It is a demand note, and as soon— I told him 1 would 
pay it back just as soon as I could. There really was no definite time 
on it, but he expects it. He expects it very shortly, I imagine. - 

Mr H VLLEY. He didn't want to know what kind ot investment i 
Mr. Bennett. He didn't ask me particularly what kind of invest- 
ment. He has loaned me money before. 

Mr. Halley. Did you contribute to the campaign of Fuller Warren 

in Florida ? 

Mr. Bennett. Not one cent. . 

Mr. Halley. Did you assist Bill Johnston m any of the campaign 

activities 

Mr. Bennett. I had nothing to do with the campaign whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John Rush? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I do. • , t i x. t, 5 

Mr Halley. What is vour relationship with John Unsiii ^ 

Mr. Bennett. Just from seeing him around Mr. Johnston, that is 

alL 

Mr. Halley. He is the attorney tor 

Mr. Bennett. For the Jacksonville Kennel C lub. 

Mr. Halley. What is vour position with the Kennel Club i 

Mr. Bennett. With tlie Jacksonville Kennel Club ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. . .,, x 1 n rr i 

Mr. Bennett. I don't have any position with Jacksonville Kennel 

Club.' 

Mr. Halley. None whatsoever? 

Mr. Bennett. A sort of advisory capacity. 

Mr Halley. What do vou mean, in an advisory capacity i 

Mr Bennett. I mean' in the accounting field, anything m the 
accounting field, but I don't have any position there. I get $oOO a 
year for 2 or 3 years out of there, I think. _ ^ ^ , . ., t i 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever consult with Rush about the Jackson- 
ville Kennel Club ? . , ^ , . 

Mr. Bennett. No; not unless it would be a tax matter or an 

accounting matter. 



302 OHGAJSriZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Did 3^011 ever consult -syith him about the Miami 
Kennel Club ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. We have an attorney at Miami Beach, Carl 
T. Hoffman. 

Mr. Halley. Who brought you to the Miami Kennel Club, Eddie 
O'Hare? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. O'Hare. 

Mr. Halley. During what year, 1932 ? 

Mr. Bennett. 1932, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Mr. Capone down there, Al Capone? 

Mr. Bennett. I never saw him in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Did you do the bookkeeping for the Miami Kennel 
Club ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Halley. Who owned it in 1932 ? 
^ Mr. Bennett. Mr. O'Hare, and Mr. Patton had a greater interest 
in there, and Mrs. Highland, Mr. O. P. Smith; Carl T. Hoffman had 
an interest; Frank Anderson had an interest. I judge there were 
about 25 or 30 stockholders at that time. Steve Hannegan had an 
interest. 

Mr. Halley. Who owned the majority or controlling interest? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. O'Hare had the controlling interest, I believe, 
or not quite. 

Mr. Halley. Who had the control of the Sportsman's Park in 
Chicago ? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. O'Hare and Mr. Patton combined would have 
had controlling interest. 

Mr. Halley. At that time • 

Mr. Benneit. But neither one would have control otherwise. 

Mr Halley. At that time, did you have any relationship with 
any of the other kennel clubs located anywhere else in the country? 

Mr. Bennett. What j-ear is that ? 

]Mr. Halley. 1932. 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you subsequently have a relationship with any of 
theother Kennel Clubs? 

Mr Bennett. Yes, in 1932 1 was asked to come to Florida, to Miami, 
and that was my first connection with the Miami Beach Kennel Club. 

Mr. Halley. What other kennel clubs were vou associated with 
at ally time ? 

Mr. Bennett. The one in Taunton, ]\Iass. I was there from 1935 
to 1939. 

Mr. Halley. Who owned that? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. O'Hare, Mr. Egan, and others. 

Mr. Halley. Who were the others ? 

Mr. Bennett. I can't remember who thev were. There were some 
Massachusetts stockholders. Mr. Egan was one of the largest stock- 
holders. I believe he had 50 percent. 

Mr. Halley. How much did Mr. O'Hare have ? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. O'Hare and others had about 50 percent. 

Mr. Halley. Were you with Mv. O'Hare the day he was murdered? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat happened? Was he at the race track? 



ORGANIZEID CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE CX)MMERCE 303 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, he was out at the race track that day. 
Mr. Halley. With you ? , , , 1 1. • ^t, 

Mr Bennett. AVith myself and anyone else who had business there 
Mr. Halley. Who else was there? I take it this is m the oflices ot 

the track ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. AAlio was there? w^i^= ^ To 

Mr. Bennett. Miss Caravetta, myself, an auditor trom VVolt & L^o. 

here in Chicago; Mr. Patton was there; I believe Mr. Johnston was 

there, too. I don't know of anyone else. 

Mr. Halley. Were you there when Mr. O'Hare left i 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Halley. Did he take his pistol with him i 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't know anything about his pistol. 

Mr. Halley. He had a pistol, didn't he? 

Mv. Bennett. I don't know. . ■, r^ o 

Mr Halley. Didn't he keep it right there in the oflice ^ 

Mr. Bennett. From what I can remember, Mr. O'Hare never car- 

^ ^ Mr! Halley. You have heard that he had a pistol at the office, haven't 



vou 



Mr. Bennett. Yes, I heard that that particular day he had a pistol 

at the office ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't see it ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't. i -n n • ? 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any idea who might have killed liim « 

Mr. Bennett. Not the slightest idea. 

The Chairman. Did you go down the street with him < 

Mr. Benne'i^'. No, I didn't. I was in the office. It was after the 
meeting was over, and I was just closing the books. We had the 
auditoi from Wolf & Co. and were just in the normal business pro- 
cedure of making up the audit for the year. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know that Patton was known as the boy 
mayor of Burnham ? 

Mr. Benneit. Yes. ■ t ,t r^ 

Mr. Halley. You knew the reputation of Burnham with the Capone 

Syndicate ? , i ^ -n i 

Air Bennett. I don't know much about Burnliam. 
:Mr. Halley. You knew it was a wide open place run by the Capone 

Mr. Bexnei-f. I had heard it. I never frequented those places, and 
I wouldn't know anything about them. 

Mr Halley. You read about it in the newspapers, didn t you i 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. :My knowledge would be strictly from news- 
paper knowledsfe. , , 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever with Patton and Ricca together i 

Mr. Bennett. Never. 

]Mr. Halley. At no time ? 

Mr. Bennett. At no time. 

Mr. Halley. You never saw them together ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever work for Ricca? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I never did. 



304 ORGAOTZEID CRIMEi IN INfTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Who owned the restaurant in which you were ar- 
rested ? 

Mr. Bennett. A man by tlie name of Pucchi, I think his name was. 

Mr. Halley. Do you remember his full name? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I don't. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you go to work after that ? 

Mr. Bennett. At the same time, I had a newspaper route in the 
morning that took me about 4 hours. After that I went to school. I 
went to Grain College for 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. Then what did you do ? 

Mr. Bennett. Then I went to work at the Blackstone Hotel as clerk 
in the engineering department. 

Mr. Halley. Who was your supervisor? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. Eberman, the chief engineer. Mr. Barnes was 
the manager of the hotel. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you stay there ? 

Mr. Bennett. I stayed there until 1928 or 1929 or 1927, I don't 
remember what it was. Then I got a full bookkeeper's position at 
Charles Emrich & Co. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you stay there ? 

Mr. Bennett. I stayed there until they went bankrupt in 1929. 

Mr. Halley. What was their business? 

Mr. Bennett. The pill business. 

Mr. Halley. In Chicago ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Then where did you work ? 

Mr. Bennett. Then — that was after the crash and the depression. 
I solicited accounts for a collection agency, and took just about any 
job I could get to get along, because my family was not in very good 
circumstances. 

Mr. Halley. Has your family since improved in circumstances or 
is your father still a poor man ? 

Mr. Bennett. He is still a poor man. 

Mr. Halley. Do you ever go out with Ricca ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever gone out with him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I never have. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in a restaurant with him? 

Mr. Bennett. In a restaurant with him ? I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. You just go to his house? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. He has never come to yours ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I don't have any home here. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How often? 
that is when he got out of jail. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen him at your father's house ? 

Mr. Bennett. Not very often, but I have seen him there. 

Mr. Halley. How many times since 1945 ? Let us say 1947, because 

Mr. Bennett. I don't believe I have seen him there since. 

Mr. Halley. Your only relationship is that you go to his home, is 
that right, to Ricca's home, about twice a year? " 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 



ORGANIZE© CRIMEA IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 305 

Mr. Hallet. Do you have dinner there? 
Mr. Bennett. I have had dinner there ; yes. 
Mr. Halley. How of ten ? 
Mr. Bennett. Not very often; occasionally. 

Mr. Halley. The other times you just dropped by to pay your 
respects ? 

Mr. Benneti\ That is all. . . • -i . » 

Mr. Halley. Did you do that before Ricca went to jail, too? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I used to visit him occasionally. 
Mr. Halley. About on the same basis ? 
Mr. Benneit. Just about the same basis. 
Mr. Halley. About once or twice a year ? 
Mr. Bennett. I would say yes. 

Mr. Halley. Not always to have a meal; is that right? 
Mr. Bennett. That is right. o ^m * 

Mr. Halley. Wliat would you do when you got there? What 
would you talk about? 
Mr. Bennett. Social. 
Mr. Halley. Did you take your wife? 
ISIr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. He never came to your house? 

Mr. Bennett. I have no home here. I have no home that I can 
entertain in. i , i 

Mr. Halley. You spend some time here each year ; don t you 5 
Mr. Bennett, Yes. 
Mr. Halley. At Sportsman's Park ? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes. 
Mr. Halley. Where do you live ? 

Mr. Bennett. I live with my mother-in-law at 3809 West End 
Avenue. 

Mr. Halley. Does she have an apartment? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How large an apartment? 
Mr. Bennett. Four rooms. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you realize that your testimony amounts to 
perjurv? Don't vou realize that? 

Mr. Bennett.' I am sorry. Your are asking me to tell the truth, 
and that is what I am telling you. . 

Mr. Halley. Don't you realize the testimony that is completely in- 
credible is perjurious? 

The Chairman. Mr. Bennett, after you talked with Ricca, DeLucia, 
about his wanting to borrow all this money, who did you advise with 
about it ? Did you talk with your father about it ? 
Mr, Bennett. No. 

The Chairman. Who did you talk with about it? 
Mr. Bennett. I talked to my wife about it. 

The Chairman. Just whether this would be a good thing to do or 
not ? You didn't mention it to your father at all ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't. My father is too old for that. 
The Chairman. Do you have several brothers and sisters around 
here ? 

Mr. Bennett, I have two brothers ; yes. 
The Chairman, Where do they live? 



306 ORGAmZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Bennett. Three brothers. They live here in Chicago. 

The Chairman. Are they friends of DeLucia? 

Mr. Bennett. Not particnhirly, any more than I am. 

The Chairman. Have they had any business connections with him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; they haven't. 

The Chairman. Did you talk with your brothers about this matter? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't. 

The Chairman. Nobody but your wife? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

The Chairman. Just the two of your decided to lend him $80,000 ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. I am the only one who would be able 
to go into a transaction of that kind. 

The Chairman. I know, but I thought you miffht advise with some- 
body about whether it would be a good thing to do, whether you could 
afford to tie up all that amount of money with one man. 

Mr. Bennett. With the proper security, I didn^t think there was 
any risk. 

The Chairman. Did you ask anybody about whether LeLucia really 
needed the money or not ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't ask anyone else. I didn't think anybody 
would know but him. 

The Chairman. Did you ask him for a financial statement to show 
what he had ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't. 

The Chairman. Do you belong to any organization that DeLucia 
belongs to ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I never have. 

The Chairman. Any secret society? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know of any secret societies. 

The Chairman. Wlien DeLucia 'was in the penitentiary, did he 
write you at any time ? 

Mr. Bennett. Never. 

The Chairman. Did you write him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't. 

The Chairman. Did you know where he was ? 

Mr. Bennett. I couldn't tell you. 

J3^^ S^^'^^^^^"^^" "^^^^ y*^^"' lawyer also represent him? 
Mr. Bennett. No. 

The Chairman. Who is your lawyer in Chicago who handles your 
matters? "^ 

Mr. Bennett. Joseph Butler. 
The Chairman. Is he still here? 
Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

. J}^^ Chairman. All you got him to do was just to get up the papers, 
IS that right ? o i r- r- > 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; to get up the papers and check to see that there 
were no Government liens, because I thought there was a possibility 
of (Tovernment liens on the property. 

The Chairman. Did you have a title check ? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, definitely. 

The Chairman. Did you get a title guaranty? 

Mr. Bennett. I left that strictly up to the attorney to see whether 
there was a good title. 



ORGANIZEID CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 307 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he went down to Indiana to 
check tlie title, or not ? 

Mr. Bennett. He did. . , . 

Mr. Chairman. Do you have some certificate stating the title is 

^^Ir Bennett. I don't know. Those things I generally leave up to 
the attorney. Every real estate transaction I ever was m, I always 
let the attorney decide whether the title was good or not 

The Chairman. Did the attorney give you a letter that the title was 

good ? 

Mr Bennett. I think he did. I am not sure. 

The Chairman. Have you found such a letter, Mr. Robinson { 

Mr. Robinson. No ; we don't have one. 

Mr. Bennett. I am not positive. 

Mr. Robinson. What is the full name of the lawyer { 

lAx. Bennett. Joseph J. Butler. 

:^lr. Robinson. Do you know what his residence or business 

address is ^ . i 

Mr Bennett. I think it is 231 South La Salle, if I am not mistaken. 
Mr. Halley. Call him on the phone and see if you can get him to 

come over here. , . . t i • • i. 4.i,-„ 

The Chairman. How much did you pay him for looking into this 

matter for you? 

Mr Bennett. Two-hundred-some-odd dollars. 

The Ch airman. Why did you not make Mr. DeLucia pay some ot it « 

Mr. Bennett. The second time. I did. It was just an oversight the 
first time. He was my lawyer and I paid him. 

Mr. Halley. Anything else? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Do you know a man by the name of Mercer? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Robinson. Who is he ? .m at ^- i -d i. 

Mr. Bennett. He is the president of the Mercantile National Banii 
in Miami Beach. , ^ ^ ^^. „ 

Mr Robinson. Do you know why he would be calling from your 
telephone number in Miami Beach to the Continental Trust Co. on 

May 19 of this year % . , . • x .-i 4. 

Mr. Bennett. That must have been m relation to that wire tor that 

money. „ 

Mr. Robinson. Why was he calling from your home « 

Air Bennett. My home? Oh, the telephone call was charged to 
my home. My wife was at the bank, and the telephone was charged 
to' my home telephone. , 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Bennett, how do you know you were the only 
one that DeLucia could turn to to get this loan ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is what he told me. 

Mr. Robinson. That is what he told you? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. , . 

Mr. Robinson. Did Mr. DeLucia ever buy any paintings from your 

father? . , , 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; he did, quite some time back. 
Mr. Robinson. How many did he buy ? 
Mr. Bennett. I don't remember. 



308 ORGAlSriZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know what he paid for them? 
Mr. Bennett. No; I don't. 

The Chairman. We will recess at this time until 8 : 45 this evening. 
(Thereupon, at 5 : 30 p. m., a recess was taken until 8 : 45 p. m., of 
the same day.) 

EVENING SESSION 

(At 8 : 45 p. m., the committee i-econvened pursuant to the taking 
of recess. ) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Butler, will you stand up and be sworn. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Butler. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH J. BUTLER, ATTORNEY, CHICAGO, ILL. 

Mr. Halley. We have been looking at some loans on which I be- 
lieve you handled the legal work, loans by Hugo Bennett to Paul 
DeLucia. Can you tell us all about it ? Just start at the beginning and 
tell us the whole story. 

First, state your full name and address for the record. 

Mr. Butler. Joseph J. Butler, 105 West Adams, Chicago, 111. 

Mr. Hallet. To complete the record, you are an attorney at law ? 

Mr. Butler. Attorney at law. 

Mr. Hallet. Go ahead. 

Mr. Butler. About a year or so ago Mr. Bennett walked into my 
office and asked me to prepare a note. He said he wanted to lend money 
to a Mr. DeLucia. 

Mr. Halley. Can you be more precise on the date ? 

Mr. Butler. No, It is a matter of record, though, because that 
mortgage was recorded. I recorded it myself or had it recorded by 
the recorder of the county in which the property was located. I 
wouldn't even know the month ojffhand. At any rate, when he first 
mentioned tlie name to me I did not associate the name with DeLucia, 
with the man we read about in the paper as Eicca. 

The Chairman. Did he say DeLoucheea or DeLucia ? 

Mr. Butler. D-e-L-u-c-i-a. I don't know exactly how to pronounce 
it. He told me the amount of monej^ he wanted to lend to DeLucia^ 
whatever his name is, and wanted me to prepare a note. I advised him 
that he should have security for the note and therefore he should 
have a trust deed, a mortgage on the property to secure the note. 

The Chairman. Was that your idea or his, the mortgage ? 

Mr. Butler. It was mine. I believe, and he agreed with me immedi- 
ately and said that was Avhat he had in mind whei. he mentioned the 
note. 

He asked me how long it would take. I told him approximately a 
week. I said that Mr. DeLucia would have to come in with his wife. 
She was also in title. Oh, no, I first said I would have to check the 
title. I remember now. And see if he had a good title and have 
the abstract brought up to date, to see if the security was good, which 
is the usual thing in mortgages, naturally. I did so. I examined 
the abstract myself. He had no guaranty policy because I don't 



ORGAXIZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 309 

believe there is a guaranty policy company in that county. I advised 
Mr Bennett the securitv then was good, that there were no liens 
asainst that property. A week later I had Mr. DeLucia come m my 
office to sign the instrument. As a matter of passing l^ere my stenog- 
rapher recognized him and wouldn't notarize him. We had to take 
the instrument out some place else to have it notarized Then alter 
I recorded the instrument I so notified Mr. Bennett, and he brought a 
check into my office in the sum of $40,000, and Mr. DeLucia picked 
that check up, I imagine the next day or 2 days after I received the 
check from Mr. Bennett. . 

Mr. Halley. There were two transactions, were there not? 

Mr Butler. Yes, that was the first transaction. 

Mr. Halley. A check for $40,000. 

Mr. Butler. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Drawn bv whom to whom ? 

Air Butler. I don't even remember who was on the check. 1 
presume it was Mr. Bennett who signed the check. It was made out 
to Paul DeLucia. 

Mr. Halley. And delivered in your office i . ^ 

Mr Butler. Left in mv office. Mr. Ricca picked it up a few days 
after I informed Mr. Beiinett that the mortgage was of record and 
that Mr. DeLucia had a good title to the property securing that loan. 
That is one transaction. d^^nnnn? 

The Chairman. Was that one check, are you sure, tor ^40,000 « 

Mr. Butler. I am not sure. Naturally I didn't deposit it. It 
wasn't made out to me. i i ^ 

The Chairman. I know. Was it in one check or two checks ( 

Mr. Butler. I don't recall. I should, because I am not used to 
handling $40,000 deals. . 

Mr. Halley. But you delivered the money against the mortgage? 

Mr. Butler. Right. Then evidently there was going to be another 

loan because i , c • -i 

The Chairman. Before you get to the other loan, let's hmsh up 
about this one. Was this first loan secured by a mortgage on the 

farm? . _ 

Mr. Butler. No, it was secured by a piece of property m Long 
Beach, Ind. As a matter of fact, I was going up there on vacation, 
and I went and looked the property over first so I could advise Mr. 
Bennett whether in mv opinion I thought it was worth $40,000. 

The Chairman. Did he want you to advise him whether it was 
worth $40,000 or not ? Did he ask you? 

Mr. Butler. I mentioned I was going up and he said he thought it 
would be a good idea because he wanted to be sure that his $40,000 
could be gotten back in case there was a foreclosure or some such thing. 

The Chairman. Did vou make an abstract of title? 

Mr. Butler. I did. In LaPorte County, Ind., I ordered the abstract 
companv to do so. 

The Chairman. Was there an abstract of title made by an abstract 
company ? 

Mr. Butler. By LaPorte County Abstract Co. 

The Chairman. Where did the abstract or the report come to? 
Did it come to you ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes ; it did. 

The Chairman. 'What did you do with it? 



310 ORGAN'IZEiD CRIME: IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Butler. I read it over and gave an opinion to Mr. Bennett 
that Mr. DeLucia had a good title based on that abstract. 

The Chairman. Did you write him a letter '( 
^ Mr. Butler. Xo ; and I don't think I gave him a written opinion, 
either. Yon see, there was a relationship there between Bennett and 
I. I knew him when he was a kid. That is why he came into my 
office, I believe, to give me the business. 

The Chairman. Had you ever represented him before? 
Mr. Butler. No. 

The Chairman. Did he call or did you hear he was coming or did 
he just come in cold ? 

Mr. Butler. I don't really remember. I presume he called and 
said I will be m at a certain time because he might not have cauo-ht 
me in the office otherwise. '^ 

The Chairman. Have you seen him frequentlv since you were kids 
together ? 

Mr. Butler. I hadn't seen him from the time I was approximately 
21 or so until about 5 years ago. I didn't know he was connected 
with the race track at the time. I did hear he was an auditor, but 

I didn't know 

The Chairman. But you hadn't liad any contact with liim over 
a period of how many years? When you were -21, and then you saw 
him 5 years ago. How old are you now ? 

Mr. Butler. It was more than 5 years ago. I saw him before I 
was married. I would say I got in contact with him again, or vice 
versa, approximately 1942 or 1943, perhaps. 

The Chairman. There was a span of about how many years when 
you didn't see him or have any contact with him ? 

Mr. Butler. I might have bumped into him out in the West Side 
where I lived in the neighborhod. He lived out there and courted 
a young lady out there whom I had courted prior to the time he 
married her. I bumped into him in front of Power's Restaurant or 
soineplace maybe once or twice a year and talked. 

The Chairman. How long have you been a member of the bar ? 
Mr. Butler. 1932. 

The Chairman. Back to the abstract of title, you got what com- 
pany to make the abstract? 

Mr. Butler. I believe it was the LaPorte Title Co. I believe it is 
the only one there which makes abstract of title for those vacation 
resorts and Long Beach property. I could be wrong. 

The Chairman. Do they guarantee the title or do they just make 
an abstract ? 

_ Mr. Butler. They just make an abstract. To my knowledge, there 
is no guaranty company there. 

The Chairman. Did you pay them or did he pay them ? 
Mr. Butler. I believe I Avas billed by the company, and when I 
settled on a fee with Mr. Bennett I added that amount of the ab- 
stract bill, which I believe was approximately $20, to my fee, makino- 
a total of $225— $200 and $25 expense. -^ ' ^ ' 

I presume I also charged him to record that mortgage, because I 
mailed the mortgage down for recording and was billed for that also. 
That was about $5 more. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Halley. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME" IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 311 

Mr. Haixey. Going along on that first mortgage, had you been 
seeing Mr Bennett frequently upon your resumption of friendship i 
Mr. Butler. Quite frequently. Yes. He is a good friend of mine. 
Mr H\LLEY. Do you have other business together? 
Mr. Butler. No. That is the only business, I believe, that I ever 

did for Mr. Bennett. , , . . ., ... 

:Mr. Halley. You never represented him m any other matter? 

Mr. Butler. I did. I had another mortgage. 

Mr. Halley. Prior to that. 

Mr. Butler. No. . -,-, . 

Mr. Halley. But you had seen each other socially ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes. We had been out together. I know his wife 
quite well. He knows my wife. We were all kids together. 

Mr. Halley. Did vou visit them in Florida ? 

Mr. Butler. No;'I was only down there once. I haven't visited 
them in Florida. 

Mr. Halley. You would see them when they were up here m 

Chicago? 

Mr. Butler. That is right. I knew his brother, also. 

Mr. Halley. What happened, did he call you up and say he wanted 
you to work out a loan or something ? How did he happen to come to 
your office ? 

Mr. Butler. I am listed in the phone book. He probably had seen 
me around for several years previously. He knew I was a lawyer. 
When he first came in, I presumed it was an ordinary mortgage, that 
he was loaning a little money to a friend and wanted security for 
it just in case. 

Mr. Halley. I think you made the point that you mentioned the 
security. "V^Tio was it who mentioned the security ? 

Mr. Butler. He mentioned a note, and then I mentioned the mort- 
gage, and he said : "That is what I wanted— the mortgage." 

Mr. Halley. How could you mention a mortgage unless you knew 
there was some real estate involved ? 

Mr. Butler. I wanted security. He wanted me to draw a note for 
$40,000, and I said : "For that kind of money, even though it is a deal 
with a friend, as you have told me, I still say that you should have 
security.-' He agreed with me immediately and said, "There is secu- 
rity here." The man has some very expensive properties, and I am 
sure he will put them up as security. ^Mr. Bennett wanted protection 
in his loan. Of that I am convinced. 

Mr. Halley. Did he state the reason for the loan ? 

Mr. Butler. I didn't ask. . , . ^ 

Mr. Halley. Did you inspect any of the other properties besides the 

House ? 

Mr. Butler. No. 

The Chairman. Right at this point, when you first talked with him 
about security, was it determined what security he was going to have, 
whether it would be a farm or a house. He said he wanted to get some 
security after you suggested it. Then he said he was quite sure that 
Mr. Ricca would be willing to put up some security. Then, was there 
a further meeting about what security was going to be put up ? 

Mr. Butler. No; there wasn't. I take credit, naturally, for sug- 
gesting security. I believe it was in his mind when he came to my 
office. 



312 ORGANIZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Did he have a description of the property he was 
going to get security on? 

Mr. Butler. He asked me what I needed, and then he went out 
and came back a day or so later with the old abstract brought up to 
approximately 3 or 4 years prior to that transaction. 

Mr. Halley. But, at this first conversation before he came back, 
did you review the various securities that might be offered and then 
decide on this house? 

Mr. Butler. No. He had seen the house and had told me he was 
satisfied that that was f)]enty of security. He asked me when — I told 
him, by chance, I was going up there the following week end, invited 
to a party at Long Beach, and he said to take a look at it and see if you 
agree with me as to its value. 

Mr. Halley. Did he by any chance mention that there were other 
properties that could also be security or was this thing fixed in his 
mind ? 

Mr. Butler. That was sufficient. He did not mention any other. 
I did not know at the time that Mr. DeLucia had this farm in Kendall 
County. I did not even know that existed at the time. 

Mr. Halley. Then you say he came back a few days later with an 
abstract, and you hired this title company? 

Mr. Butler. Yes. I delivered them personally to the title company 
while I was away on that 1-day holiday. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have in your files the abstract ? 
Mr. Butler. No; I have not. I surrendered that abstract to — I 
believe I gave that back to Mr. Bennett. I believe he was going to give 
it back to Mr. liicca. I am not sure of that. It is out of my lumds 
after one of the two of them got that abstract. 

Mr. Halley. One of the two. Is it possible that Mr. Kicca got it 
directly ? 

Mr. Butler. It is possible. 

Mr. Halley. Had you ever met Mr. Ricca before ? 
Mr. Butler. I never saw him before in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first see Mr. Ricca ? 
Mr. Butler. When he walked into my office at my request. I asked 
Mr. Bennett to get hold of him to come in and sign the mortgage. As a 
matter of fact, the first day he came in I didn't have the mortgage 
ready. Something else had' come up and I was busy. I asked then if 
he could come back in a couple of days, and he did. He came in with 
his wife. They then signed the mortgage. 
Mr. Halley. Did they sign a note also ? 
Mr. Butler. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. The note called for interest to be paid; is that right? 
Mr. Butler. I don't remember now. I didn't make a copy of the 
note. 
Mr. Halley. Wasn't it for 4I/2 percent? 
Mr. Butler. I am quite sure there must have been interest. 
Mr. Halley. Wasn't there some provision that the interest just 
didn't have to be paid? There seems to be no definite date. Was 
there any discussion of that? 

Mr. Butler. None whatsoever. If I remember correctly, there was 
interest supposed to be paid and added on to the principal at the end of 
the term or else a yearly payment, I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do we have the mortgage ? Is this the first mortgage ? 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 313 

Mr. Butler. I almost lost my job because of this mortgage. 

MrBL™.' The^otli^^^ partner in my office didn't like my name to 

be associated with Ricca's, ind the Chicago Tribune happened to check 

ll pioi ert^^ Long Beach, and he didn't like i^t He.is a corpora ion 

awyrrepiesentino" banks and things and didn't think I should be 

associated with these people. He didn't mean Bennett, now. He 

meant what is known as a public enemy. • • i ^.i_ 

Theie is interest here. If they fail to pay the principal or the 

'""MfH VLLEY Here is the note, which may refresh your recollection. 

Mr! B™; It is the real note, too; isn't it? This is not a copy. 
This is the real note. 

^Ir. Halley. I hope so. 

Mr Butler. Four and a half percent per annum. 

Mr. Halley. You will note that the provisions for payment were 

crossed out. -,, „ . i j. 

Mr Butler. "Payable annually" is crossed out. 
Mr Halley. That is right. So, there is no definite statement as 
toVhen the interest is to be paid; is that right? _i, t Pinflpr 

Air Butler. This note is secured by a mortgage to Joseph J . butlei , 
trustee, of even date, and is to bear interest at the rate of 41/2 percent 
per annum after maturity. It is Wo percent per annum, but no date 
as to when the interest is paid ; that is correct. I don't remember why 
it was stricken out. I must have had a reason. 

]SIr. Halley. The note is a 5-year note ; is that correct « 
Mr. Butler. I believe so. , n .1 i ff^., 

Mr Halley. Did you discuss with your client at all the usual mattei 
of amortization of a mortgage, of receiving interest payments quarterly 
or annually? 

Mr. Butler. I did. . 

Mr Halley. What was that discussion ^ 

Mr Butler. I don't remember offhand. It was a general conversa- 
tion " I know I must have questioned him about the amount ot the 
interest. I could be wrong, but it seems to me he made the statement 
he was going to collect the principal and the interest f ^ og^theT at 
the end of the 5-year period. He did think. though-I believe at the 
time he did say he would be willing to receive full payment any time 
prior to that if the mortgagor saw fit. 

Mr Hvlley. Now, turning to the actual delivery of the mortgage, 
you say they came in one day and the mortgage wasn't ready. 
Mr. "Butler. That is right. 
Mr Halley. Did they come back the next day ( 
Mr". Butler. I believe I asked them at the time to give me a tew 
more days. He came in, I think, 2 days later. 

Mr. Halley. Two days later. . ,^ ,, • • . 

Uv Butler. At which time I had it prepared. Yoii see this is not a 
simple Illinois form. We had no forms around. Believe it or not, 
it is hard to get a form like that. The store in our building which 
orders them, I believe, was out of them at the time. 
Mr Halley. Wliy didn't you use the simple form i 
Mr. Butler. That is Uie simple form of an Indiana mortgage; 
isn't it? 

68958— 51— pt. 5 21 



314 ORGAXIZEiD CRIMEi IN IKITERSTATE OOMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Yes ; it is printed in Fort Wayne. When they came 
back 2 days later, you had Paul and Nancy DeLiicia simi this« 

Mr. Butler. Right. 

Mr. Halley. You had to take them downstairs to get it acknowl- 
edged by another notary ? 

Mr. Butler. No; I did not. My girl had heard and was quite 
excited about a man of that prominence coming into the office. I don't 
have very many criminal cases. Our girl told me she didn't care to 
acknowledge it. I remember I was quite put out about it, but she 
didn't care to; so I didn't force the issue. So I told Mr. DeLucia he 
would have to take it to some notary he knew and have him acknowl- 
edge it. I didn't want to ask a strange girl to acknowledge something 
that my own girl wouldn't acknowledge. 

Mr. Halley. Did he come back the same day with the mortoage 
acknowledged ? '^ 

Mr. Butler. I don't think so. I think he came back the followino- 
day. "" 

Mr. Halley. At this time did you have the check for $40,000 in your 
pocket, on your desk ? 

Mr. Butler. I should remember the answer to that, with that much 
money involved. I know I never deposited it or put it away. I fig- 
ured it was safe there. 

Mr. Halley. When he came back the second day he gave you the 
mortgage ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you recall handing him a check ? Just what hap- 
pened ? Did he come into your office with Mrs. DeLucia this time or 
alone ? 

Mr. Butler. I believe he was with Mrs. DeLucia because it seems 
to stick in my memory that I went to hand it to her and I said, "No, 
I had better not" ; and I turned and handed it to him As a matter of 
fact, I might have handed it to her, but I am sure they w^ere together. 

Mr. Halley. The check was drawn to the order of both of them ? 

Mr. Butler. That I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. The mortgage — you are an attorney and probably a 
careful attorney from the way you have been talking. 

Mr. Butler. I did not draw that check myself, of course. It was 
just brouglit in to me. I think in that case — I don't know why, but 
I have the idea that it was to one of them. Even though I am a' care- 
ful lawyer, I believe in that case I probably w^ould have O. K.'d it. 
They would both endorse it, maybe. 

Mr. Halley. You are not sure who it was payable to? 

IS'Ir. BuBLER. If I may take a guess I will say to both, 

Mr. Halley. But you are not sure ? 

Mr. Butler. But I am not quite sure. If I were a betting man, I 
would say "yes." 

Mr. Halley. It w^as a check made 

]Mr. Butler. Mav I see the note, please? Maybe I can refresh my 
memory. I am almost sure. I would have to see it. I am almost 
sure it w^as made out to both of them. 

Mr. Halley. Do you in your ordinary practice of the law find you 
have a good memory for the details of transactions? I don't want 
to put you on the spot. I am just trying to find out. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 315- 

Mr. Butler. I mulerstand. Some stand out in my mind and others 
don't. My mind isn't particularly good. 

Air Ha'lley. Does this one stand out? 

Mr Butler. Most of the details. I was quite excited. 

Mr Halley. It was a large amount of money for you to handle. 

Mr Butler. You don't have Eicca walking into our office every 
day either. The elevator bov was even looking at him. I am a civil 
practitioner. I don't think I ever saw another criminal before. 

Mr Halley. May I presume that handing over a check lor 5?40,UUU, 
you wanted to be sure, darned sure, that you were not going to have it 

stolen from you ? . . t ti i ^ ^ 

]Slr Butler. I was verv sure. I made a trip to Long Beac4i to get 

the abstract made out. I'^did it personally. I was quite satished that 

mv client's wants were satisfied : so were his needs as far as security. 
^Mr. Halley. Then you handed this check over and you got the 

mortgage and the note. ,. , . • i i i 

Mit Butler. That is right. I believe that mortgage is recorded. 1. 

am sure it is recorded. , -, -.t. ^ x • i • 

Mr. Halley. It has been recorded. A\ as the note signed m youi 

Di'C^ence ^ 

Mr Butl^ler. Yes. I am quite sure it was. I want to retract that.. 
Was it signed in my presence or not? Yes, I am quite sure it was 
because otherwise I would have the note signed the same time as the 
mortoage and I would not. of course, have asked my stenographer to 
notanz? it unless I was sure it was their signature 

Mr Halley. The note was signed the day before they came back 
with the acknowledgment. Lefs check the date so that we can help 
you out The date of the notarization is the same date as the date 
on the note itself, and on the mortgage. In other ^yords, the ac- 
knowledgment and the note and the mortgage are all dated June 22, 

1948 

All- Butler. I don't believe they brought them back the same day, 
I believe they were brought back by him and his wife the foll^jwmg 

^ Mr. Halley. He might have gone out and had it acknowledged that 
day, you just don't know. ^ i i -^ 

Mr. Butler. I don't know. I don t know who acknowledged it, as 
a matter of fact. I probably did at the time. , , , ^ ^ 

Mr. Halley. Do you recall at what point you gave the abstract to 
either DeLucia or Bennett? . 

Mr. Butler. To INlr. Bennett, after the entire transaction was closed. 

Mr. Halley. Who paid your fee? m ^ -, 

Mr. Butler. I believe Bennett paid my fee. I presume he collected 
it from Ricca, because I presume I advised him to do so. 

Mr. Halley. Who paid for the abstract? 

Mr. Butler. I paid originally, as I do with all clients, ihey bill 
me It was my credit that got h. I paid and then I billed Bennett 
for it. I am sure he paid me the abstract fee. My regular fee, and. 

$4 or $5 for recording. , . -n. i -i^ t • 

Pardon me. I advised him to collect that from this Paul DeLucia. 
:Mr. Halley. Ordinarily, at your closing, don't you have a closing 

form and deduct from the proceeds of a loan the expenses? Isn't that 

the usual practice of closing a mortgage loan ? 



316 ORGA:NnZEiD CRIMEA IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

]N[r. Butler. That is the way they do it at a building and loan, I 
presume, or at a bank, not a private loan. We draw up quite a few 
mortgage loans, particularly where one relative is going to finance it 
for a brother, and we did it for the full amount and then we charge 
the man who comes into our office. We don't particularly care whether 
he charges the brother who borrowed the money or not. 

]\rr. Halley. What is the general nature of your practice? 

Mr. Butler. Real estate, mostly. I worked in the recorder's office 
of this county. That is Avhere I first saw our attorney general, for 
about 5 or 6 years. I wanted to get grounded well in it. Then I 
went out to private practice, and most of my business is real estate, 
some probate, a few corporations. It is not the best business in the 
world, but it is a good business. It feeds five children. 

Mr. Halley. After 1948, when this mortgage was closed, did you 
continue to see Bennett frequently ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes ; not too frequently. His wife didn't come to town 
too often, so I couldn't get out too often with my wife home. I did 
see him fairly frequently, not during the winters, because he lives in 
Florida in the wintertime. 

Mr. Halley. Can you state whatever facts led up to the second 
loan ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes. Mr. Bennett called and told me he wanted 
to — or did I see him ? I believe he called me and told me he wanted to 
lend another $40,000 to the same gentleman. I suppose I should have 
turned that down because my partners don't like it, but I didn't. I had 
the first one. This time the property was in the State of Illinois. 
This time the Chicago Title & Trust Co. could act as trustee under a 
trust deed. Instead of using my own name as trustee, I used the Chi- 
cago Title & Trust's name as trustee, the same amount on a piece of 
property in Kendall County. Submitted to me was a guaranty policy 
showing that tlie farm already had a mortgage on it for some terrific 
amount of money. I don't know how much offliand. I believe the 
Prudential Life Insurance Co. had around $60,000 or $70,000 on it. 
1 said, "You realize this is a second mortgage. The first takes prece- 
dence over the second in the case of default." He said, "Yes, I so 
realize, but I am convinced the property is worth so much that it 
could stand a much bigger mortgage than the first." I told him he 
was the one to be convinced, so I was almost a scrivener. 

I drew the mortgage for him. 

Mr. Halley. Who suggested the interest rate on the second mort- 
gage ? 

Mr. Butler. I asked him what rate he wanted. I am sure I did. 
I wouldn't do that myself. 

Mr. Halley. Do you remember what it was ? 

Mr. Butler. No, I don't, offhand. 

Mr. Halley. Do you remember whether it was greater or less than 
the first one? 

Mr. Butler. I might have suggested a greater one because it was 
a second mortgage, not a first. 

Mr. Halley. Ordinarily second mortgages command fairly high 
interest rates, do they not? 

Mr. Butler. I would say so, unless the person lending the person 
is convinced there is plenty of security despite the first mortgage. 
It might still be a good loan. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 317 

jMr. Halij:y. Of course, but the open market second mortgages do 
command higher interest rates, don't they? 

Mr. Butler, Yes. As a matter of fact I have a two-flat myself. 
I doubt if I could get a second mortgage on it. They are hard to get. 
So they would command a higher interest rate. 

Mr. Halley. Did you handle any law business for Bennett between 
the first and the second mortgages? 

Mr. Butler. I doubt it. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. No law business whatsoever? 

Mr. Butler. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. He came in and said he had another loan on another 
piece of propert}^ Did you go out and look at the farm? 

Mr. Butler. No. He already was convinced of its value. I think 
he was going to give the loan anyhow, but in the case of the first loan 
I was going up to Long Beach in the first instance and happened to 
mention it. I suppose 3'ou are sick of hearing the word coincidence, 
but that is exactly what it was. I told him I would stop in and look 
at the property. I was very much amazed at the beauty of that piece 
of property at Long Beach. 

Mr. Halley. It looked like pretty expensive property, is that right ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes. I couldn't afford the garage myself. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think ]Mr. Bennett could ? 

Mr. Butler. I am goine: to answer that. I suppose any man who 
has $80,000 to lend could. ^ 

Mr. Halley. Did you wonder where he got the $80,000, as a lawyer 
with an inquisitive mind ? 

Mr. Butler. I don't think vou want me to answer that, do you ? 

Mr. Halley. Please. 

The Chair3iax. Did 3-ou discuss the matter with him, where he got 
the $80,000? 

Mr. Butler. No. I might have been curious, that a man I knew, a 
younger man, had succeeded so well. I might have been curious at 
that, but I would not ever ask him where he got his money any more 
than I would ask an attorney in my office how much he had or where 
he got it. 

Mr. Halley. There was nothing in his manner of living in Chicago 
to indicate great wealth, was there? 

Mr, Butler. No ; not as a young man, but later I heard, as a matter 
of fact he told me, he has a fine home in Florida. I think he has a sum- 
mer home somewhere, if I am not mistaken. I am not divulging any 
confidences here. They are all a matter of record. I thought he was 
doing well. 

Mv. Halley. But in Chicago he lived in an apartment of his 
mother-in-law's, is that right ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes; I heard that, too. I don't doubt, though, that he 
could go out and buy a home, only for the convenience of living in his 
mother-in-law's house, because he Avasn't in Chicago often enough. 

Mr. Halley. You never visited the apartment? 

INlr. Butler. Years ago I was over there. I believe it is over on west 
end, right around there on the West Side, 

Mr, Halley, Is it a very elaborate apartment? 

Mr. Butler, I wasn't in, I was just as far as the porch, 

Mr, Halley. Had you been out with him to night clubs or res- 
taurants? 



318 ORGAlSriZEiD CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Butler. Years ago we used to go out quite a bit. 

Mr. Halley. I mean since your reunion in 1942. 

Mr. Butler. Yes ; I have seen liim in a night chib since then. 

Mr. Halley. Had you gone out together ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes; we have had hnich together, a drink together, 
maybe. We didn't pal around together like we used to in our early 
days. No ; we did not. Neither one of us could get out that much any 
more. 

Mr. Halley. In any event, he came in for this second mortgage and 
you had the title checked by the Chicago Title and Trust, did you? 

Mr. Butler. Right. 

Mr. Halley. They issued an insurance policy ? 

Mr. Butler. They issued a clear title. 

Mr. Halley. But not a policy ? 

Mr. Butler. A guaranty policy. I believe it was a guaranty policy. 

INIr. Halley. Who has that policy ? 

Mr. Butler. I believe I gave it back to Bennett. 

Mr. Halley. That was in June of this year? 

Mr. Butler. This year. It was this year. 

Mr. Halley. May or June ? 

Mr. Butler. In the summer some time, in the early summer of this 
year. 

Mr. Halley. It is dated Mav 17, 1950. You say you did get a title 
policy from the Chicago Title & Trust Co. ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes ; I am quite sure I did. Wait a while, just 1 min- 
ute. Excuse me, sir. Did I or didn't I? I can check to find out by 
reviewing my Chicago Title & Trust Co. bill to see whether I did or 
not. As a matter of fact, after that first mortgage and the Tribune 
put my name in the paper and I was called in the office for drawing 
that mortgage, the less I knew about them after that, about Ricca 
and his mortgages, the better off I was. I didn't inquire too deeply 
into any of it. I just drew the mortgages. I don't want any part of it. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you bother with the second one at all? 

Mr. Butler. I knew Hugo Bennett. He is a friend of mine. He 
knows my wife by her first name. I know his. He knows some of my 
children. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever ask him what he was doino- lendino- 
money to Ricca ? ^ ^ 

Mr. Butler. No, I did not. After that first mortgage and my name 
was m the paper, I wouldn't ask him. I wanted no part of' it. 

Mr. Halley. Even when you met him socially for lunch ? 

Mr. Butler. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Halley. There was never any discussion of it? 
Mr. Butler. No. 

Mr. Halley. But when he came in with the second mortgao-e 

Mr. Butler. I said, "O. K., I will draw it. The fee willlDe $200, 
and you will pay the costs and let it go at that." 

Mr. Halley. You don't recall at this point whether you had the 
title insured ? 

Mr. Butler. No. I think I did, but I can't recall. I can find out 
for you of course by checking with the Chicago Title & Trust Co. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether you had it checked at all 
whether you had it cleared or abstracted ? "^ ' 



ORGAKIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE CX)MMERCE 319 

Mr. Butler. No. I wouldn't get an abstract here in Chicago from 
Title and Trust. You get a letter of opinion. 

The Chairman. I don't understand this. Ricca and his wife have 
not signed this. Where is the piece of paper. 

^Ir. Butler. That is a trust from the bank. 

Mr. Halley. Technically the Oak Park Bank made the loan, is 
that right? 

INIr. Butler. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. We will get to that. Do you recall whether the title 
was guaranteed or not? 

Mr. Butler. Just one second. It is possible that it wasn't. I 
seem to remember some conversation and he was so well satisfied he 
said go ahead. It is good security. He told me it was. 

:Mr. Halley. Was it a matter of saving the small amount of money 
it would have cost to get a title policy? 

Mr. Butler. No, it wasn't. I think it was just a matter of not 
bothering for it. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you as a lawyer ? 

Mr. Butler. Of course as a lawyer I wanted a guaranty policy, 
but I didn't pursue it. He knew what he was doing. I had gone 
through all those questions of guaranty titles before with him on 
the first loan. Without question, he pointed that out and he said, 
"I am sure it is O. K. because it is in the name of that bank. There 
are no judgments against the bank as trustee of that particular trust. 
Nothing could have happened to it. 

i\Ir. Halley. As an attorney, did you write him a letter advising 
him to have a policy and making it clear on the record that it was 
his decision, and not yours? 

Mr. Butler. Xo. I trusted him if it was ever necessary and it came 
up, that he would admit and say that he was advised that the usual 
thing was a guaranty policy. I am coming to the conclusion now 
that there wasn't any' guaranty policy brought up, but I believe there 
was brought up to a fairly recent time in the name of that bank, and 
he was convinced that there was nothing since against the title. As 
a matter of fact, I might have checked the records and the tract book 
but he was convinced there wouldn't be anything else against the title. 
The title was no longer in Paul DeLucia's name, but in the name of 
the bank. 

Mr. Halley. You as a lawyer would know that if there was a detect 
in the title it wouldn't matter whose name it was in. 

Mr. Butler. If I had a good note and the good mortgage I could 
stil] foreclose without a guaranty policy. 

Mr. Halley. You can't foreclose if the title is bad and somebody 
else comes along and takes the property away. 

I^Ir. Butler. Very true. The first mortgage has a right to go ahead 
first. There is no question about that. But if he has a good note 
with security that he is convinced is good 

INIr. Halley. As a lawyer, you would have to tell him whether he 
was getting security or not. I mean the house may look good, but if 
a fellow doesn't know it he must have some security. 

Mr. Butler. There is no presumption about it. I know at the time 
I told him exactly how that title was. I know I told him at the time 
exactly what he was getting for his money. I have been practicing 



320 ORGAN^IZEiD CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

too lon^ not to oet a guaranty policy if I was told to, and I know I 
have been practicing too long to know that I should tell him to get one. 

Mr. Halley. You mean you know that you should tell your client to 
get a guaranty polic}" ? 

Mr. Butler. There is no question about it. 

]\Ir. Halley. And you are sure you told him that? 

Mr. Butler. I am positive I told him that. 

Mr. Halley. You know also that a guaranty policy on a second 
inortgage, which means really just bringing an old search up to date, 
is a relatively inexpensive guaranty policy; is that not right? 

Mr. Butler. Yes ; but I do believe that the 10-day or 2-week period 
which is necessary to bring that policy up to date was to be avoided. 

Mr. Halley. He was in a hurry ? 

Mr. Butler. 1 believe he was going back to Florida, if I am not 
mistaken. He was going somewhere to meet his wife at a summer 
place. He wanted to give a check. I don't believe I saw the second 
check. 

Mr. Halley. I think we can refresh your recollection. I rather 
doubt if you did. Before I lose the point, I don't think you are quite 
sure what company made the abstract of title in the case of the Indiana 
property. 

Mr. Butler. No ; but it was quite close to the property itself. It 
was some small town up there. I just walked in and had the title 
made. 

Mv. Halley. Do you have a file in your office with correspondence ? 

Mr. Butler. As a matter of fact, I wanted to get rid of that. I 
gave the whole thing back. I didn't like it around. 

INIr. Hali.ey. That just can't be so. 

Mr. Butler. I know it ordinarily isn't so, but I am not ordinarily 
used to having liicca walk into my office, either. 

Mr. Halley. If you were so anxious to get rid of it, I just can't 
understand why you took the second job. 

Mr. Butler. I know Bennett. I wouldn't turn him down. I know 
his brother, I know his Mite. 

Mr. Halley. But in that case why get the file out of your office? It 
just doesn't make sense. 

Mr. Butler. What does the file consist of? It consists of the bill. 
He is going to pay it. I already had received it. I gave him the bill. 
He wants the receipt for his money. 

Mr. Halley. I won't argue ethics with you, but tell me this : In the 
case of the first mortgage did you insist on tlie DeLucia's coming in 
with an insurance policy and proof of tax bills paid? 

Mr. Butler. In the case of the first mortgage Bennett had left the 
whole thing up to me. I insisted at the time that this abstract be 
brought up to date and all claims off there. I wanted a clear title for 
him, as I would for any other client. 

Mr. Halley. Of course. 

Mr. Butler. That is the way it was the first time. There were no 
taxes due. There was nothing due, I believe, the first time. I believe 
tliere M^ere some liens against the ])roperty. I think there were Gov- 
ernment liens. I am quite sure there were, and I believe they were 
satisfied because I must have demanded some satisfaction. I am sure 
they were satisfied. The abstract so showed, showed that he had a clear 
title to the piece of property' at Long Beach. 



ORGANIZEID CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 321 

Mr. Halley. What precautions did you take about insurance; fire 

insurance? 

:Mr. Butler. I don't remember offhand. , . , 

Mr. Halley. You have no closing sheet m your office showing what 

was done? ^ ^ , . i i. ^.^ i. 

Mr. Butler. I (h) not believe that Mr. Bennett wanted me to go that 

far on this loan. 

Mr. Halley. On the first loan? 
]\Ir. Butler. On the first loan. 
Mr. Halley. Wluit do you mean that he didn't want you to go that 

far '^ 

^ir Butler. I will put it this way : I don't know whether or not 
he wanted to make that loan for friendship's sake or to make money 
out or it and get his ^i/o percent interest. 

We have a lot of those loans that come in the office where one man 
will lend a brother or a friend some money and just draw up a note. 

Mr. Halley. You got an impression that this was a friendship 

loan ? 

Mr. Butler. Yes; I am quite sure it was a friendship loan, too, 
as well as still wanting some security. I am quite sure that Bennett 
himself wanted some security, too, because it was a lot of money. 

Mr. Halley. But you first suggested it? 

Mr. Butler. Yes. The first thing he told me was that he wanted 
to lend the money. Then when I suggested it, he said, "Yes, that 
is what I want." 

Mr. Halley. Going along with the second loan, you drew up the 
trust deed and the note and put the bank in, wdiat is it? The Chicago 
Title & Trust Co., as trustee on the trust deed. Is that right? 

Mr. Butler. I suggested that. 

Mr. Halley. You found that the Oak Park National Bank as 
trustee owned the property; is that right? 

Mr. Butler. Right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go out to the Oak Park Bank and talk to 
them about it ? 

Mr. Butler. No. I called them on the phone. 

Mr. Halley. Did you tell them that you were going to lend money 

to an individual ? ^ n ■ ^ ■ , 

Mv. Butler. I told them that the owner of the beneficial interest 
wanted to lend money, wanted to borrow money. 

Mv. Halley. Did you know who the beneficiaries were on that 
trust ? 

jSIr. Butler. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see the trust? 

Mr. Butler. I believe I was shown a copy. I must have been nat- 
urally interested and I called the bank to verify who the beneficiaries 

were. . . i c • • , 

Ml-. Halley. Weren't there certain minors who were beneficiaries « 
Mr. Butler. Not to mv independent knowledge. The bank de- 
manded an order of the beneficiaries to the bank as trustee ordering 
the bank to execute this loan ; that is, to execute the mortgage, the note ^ 
Mr. Hallea^ AVhere is that document? 
Mr. Butler. It is in the possession of the bank. 
Mr. Halley. Of the Oak Park Bank? 



322 ORGAKJZEiD CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I\Ir. Butler. Yes That is their autliority, in other words, to sign 
this mortgage wliich they merely held as trustee. 

IMr. Halley. You just called them up and found out what docu- 
ments they wanted; is that right? 

]\Ir. Butler. That is right. They wanted the usual order from the 
benehciaries. 

Mr. Halley. Did you get that drawn up, the authorization? 

Mr. J3UTLER. I believe they mailed me the form that particular bank 
uses and I must have mailed it to Eicca because it was sent in to 
tne bank. 

Mv. Halley Didn't DeLucia have some children who were bene- 
hciaries, as well as himself and wife ? 

Mr. Butler. Not to my knowledge. I don't know. If there were 
beneficiaries other than he and his wife, under the terms of the trust 
agreemeiit evidently it was not necessary that they sign, because the 
bank did not require it. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have a copy of the trust agreement in your file ? 

Mr. Butler. I did not. 

Mr. Halley. You say you saw it. 

Mr Butler I definitely had to. I had to find out how the bank 
would go about conveying this to me, what orders 

Mr. Halley. Who showed it to you ? Where did you see it ? 

Mr. Butler. Mr. Bennett gave me all those papers. I did not see 
Kicca or DeLucia m that deal to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. You never did see him at alfon the second deal? 

.nvp'" ^r'f ""■ ""'' T ^ "i'^^ "'"' ''°* ^^ '''y knowledge ; no. I am not 
suie. JNo; 1 am sure I didn t. 

to Ri^c^'aran ^'' ^'''^' ^^'"^ ^'''''^ """"^ ^"^ ^^'^ ^""^ ^^""^ ^^^^' '^ ^^^^'^ 

Mr. Butler. Oh, no, the bank made the loan. The bank merely 

mmlJe o?l'1 '"'fl^-' beneficiaries and signed the mortgage f"? tt 
puipose or the beneficiaries. 

fhJf'vpSi'^r''' ^ ^'^^ show you an installment note and ask you if 
that refreshes your recollection. "^ 

Mr. Butler. That is right. 

h3l\f^\''''''^' T^^^,^^^)Jf "i^t^e the loan, in fact, did it not ? Isn't the 
bank the borrower, the Oak Park Bank as trustee ? 

Mr. Butler. Oh, no, no. The borrower is the one who got the notes 
b'oSof: "'^- ^^^ '^'' ^'''^' "'-^ ^^^^^ ''^''''- Tliey did not 

Mr. Halley. The note says the Oak Park Bank promises to pay 
some inoney. Doesn't that make the Oak Park Bank the borrower? 

Mr. Butler. I see your point. 

Mr. Halley. Is that by any chance something you wanted in order 
to keep the DeLucias out of your records? I am just now guessing 
to try to see why the loan was handled that way. 

Mr. Butler. That never entered my mind.' 

Let me get this straight. This bank was the owner as trustee. The 
beneficiaries wanted to borrow the money. 

Mr. Halley. It was a sort of fishy deal, wasn't it? 

Mr. Butler. No; it wasn't. Absolutely not. Absolutely not, un- 
less I got it mixed up. It won't be my first mistake, probably. 

Mr. Halley. We all make some. I would like to get this 
straightened up. 



ORGAXIZE© CRIME IX INTERSTATE 00-MMERCE 323 

Mr BuTiJSR. "The Oak Park National Bank as trustee under the 
provisions of a deed of trust hereby promises * * *." They signed 
this. What is your point now ? 

Mr. Halley. What happened? Who were you lending the 

money to? • . -d- 

Mr. Butler. I believe the money was going to Kicca. 
Mr. Halley. Ricca was going to get the use of it. 
Mr. Butler. He was going to get the money; I am quite sure ot 

that 

Mr Halley. There is no doubt it was going to him. Everybody 
has so said. But actually the loan was made to the bank, the Oak Park 

Bank; isn't that so? , • • i ^ t ^i 

Mr Butler. Yes. They were trustees, that is right, in other 
words, they acted as if they owned the property, because they were 

Mr. Halley. The bank signed the note for the $40,000, and the 
bank signed the mortgage. 

Mr. Butler. Right. r^ i -d i 

Mr. Halley. Did you deliver a check to the bank, the Oak Park 

Bank ? 

Mr. Butler. I don't believe I ever saw a check m that case. 

Mr. Halley. What were you told by Bennett ? 

Mr. Butler. I was told by Bennett to draw these papers as security 
for him, and he would give the money to the borrower, the actual bor- 
rower that is the beneficiary, DeLucia. I am quite sure that must 
have been it. I don't believe I saw the second check. I don t believe 
I saw it or did I see it and mail it out to DeLucia? If I got it I got 
rid of it right awav and didn't leave it lie around this time. 

Mr Halley. You couldn't possiblv as a lawyer have handled that 
check without wanting it endorsed to the Oak Park Bank after getting 
the note and the mortgage from the Oak Park Bank. You would want 
it to show in your record that you handled that phase of it. 

T^Ir. Butler. I don't remember who the check was made out to. 

Mr. Halley. Were vou present when the thing was signed by the 
Oak Park Bank? 

Mr. Butler. I w^as not. 

Mr. Halley. Who got it signed? , ^ , -r^ n -o i j 

Mr. Butler. I mailed those papers out to the Oak Park Bank and 

they signed it. , , ■, ^i . ^i i ^- 

Mr. PIalley. Did they mail them back to you or was that the last 

you saw of it? -^ ■, -, ^ -^ j. ^.i 

Mr Butler They mailed it back to me. I brought it over to the 
Chicao-o Title & Trust Co. They identified it with their particular 
number. They also checked to identify the note They are trustees 
now on this mortgage. We rely quite a bit on Chicago Title & Trust 
here-mavbe too much. However, they did so check it Then at my 
order theV mailed it down to Kendall County for re^oiTling and then 
without question it went right back to the Chicago Title & Trust Co., 
who mailed me the instruments. -o ^^9 

Mr. Halley. Did you then mail them to Bennett < 
Mr. Butler. Yes ;' I did. , , ^, 

Mr. Halley. On the second deal did you check the insurance 

policies? 

Mr. Butler. No; I did not. 



324 ORGAN^IZEiD CRIiME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

. Mr. Haixf.y. Did you check to see whether the taxes at least were 
paid ? 

Mr. Butler. I did not. 

JNIr. Hallet. And of course you got no title guaranty policy. 
Mr. Butler. I had one in my hand, but I think it was a year or 
so old. 

Mr. Halley. You got none for the purpose of this mortgage? 
Mr. Butler. I do not believe I did. 

Mr. Halley. You would hardly expect a bank, even the Oak Park 
Bank, to sign a trust deed and note without getting a check in its 
hand when it signed the note ? Would that be right "i 

Mr. Butler. Not necessarily the trust. I am not associated with 
that bank in any shape or form and have never had any other busi- 
ness with them in my life, but I believe that bank has a right under 
tke usual trust agreement, upon proper order of the beneficiaries, to 
draw such papers and to sign them and do as the beneficiary so says. 
Mr. Halley. Assuming that to be right, wouldn't the bank in any 
event as the technical signer of the note want to be the technical 
receiver of the check, the proceeds, and then turn them over to some- 
one else ? 

Mr. Butler. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Halley. How would they complete their records ? 
Mr. Butler. They didn't. 
Mr. Halley. Did" you check to see if they did ? 

Mr. Butler. No; I did not. My work was done and I presumed 
they thought that it was done when thev O. K.'d this and had it 
recorded. 

Mr. Halley. But you don't know it ? 

Mr. Butler. I don't know. I am not connected with that bank. 
Mr. Halley. You don't even know if $40,000 was paid to any one. 
Mr. Butler. If I didn't receive the check to mail to Ricca or 
DeLucia, then I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you receive the check ? 
Mr. Butler. I doiibt it. 

JNIr. Halley. So far as you know, it might all have been a sham 
transaction. You don't know of any check. Isn't that right? 

Mr. Butler. Just a minute. Did I or did I not receive a check 
for DeLucia ? I don't believe I received a check for him. If he was 
willing to sign a mortgage for my client and put a note outstanding 
m my client's name without getting the money, it is not my fault as 
the attorney for Bennett. Ricca should have an attorney of his own 
in there checking to see if he was protected. I am only protecting any 
client, not Ricca. 

Mr. Halley. So you just don't know what happened to the check 
on the second transaction at all. 
Mr. Butler. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley, You don't know to whom it was payable. 
Mr. Butler. I doubt that I even saw it. 
Mr. Halley. You doubt if you even saw it ? 
Mr. Butler. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. 

Mr. Halley. On one other point, are you doubtful or sure, and 
that is this : Did you or did you not see DeLucia or Mrs. DeLucia in 
connection with the second mortgage, this year? 

Mr. Butler. I do not believe I saw them'^on the second morto-ao-e. 



O'RGAJSnZEID GRIME IX LXTE ESTATE COMMERCE 325 

Mv. Halley. So there avouIcI be no doubt that the time you handed 
over a check for $40,000 was in 1948 in connection with the first 
mortgage 'i 

Mv. Butler. Right. 

Mr. Halley. If you Avill look at the note on the second mortgage, 
you will see that the interest is 3i^ percent. 

Mv. Butler. Yes. 

Mv. Halley. Isn't that an absurd interest rate for a second mort- 
gage ? 

jSIr. Butler. I thought it was low myself at the time, but I do re- 
member that Mv. Bennett described in great detail what a rich and 
expensive farm this man had. He said I had never seen anything 
like it. He was well convinced, even more so than the first case, of 
the security for his money here. 

Mr. Halley. As a lawyer who just handles even a routine, cut-and- 
dried transaction, didnVyou say to your client, why does this man 
want to borrow $40,000?' He has at least one home that we know 
about, and a very lush farm. 

Mr. Butler, t did not even think of asking Mr. Bennett that ques- 
tion. I could have advised him in tlie first place not to get a second 
mortgage. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ? 

Mr. Btn^LER. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Halley. Why not i 

Mv. Butler. I figured there was a lot here that I didn't know about 
and it was none of my business. My job was just to act as scrivener and 
draw up a good mortgage. 

Mr. Halley. When you say that is a lot you didn't know about, 
what do you mean ? 

Mr. Butler. The first time I drew a mortgage I pointed out a lot 
of things. He said, "That is not important. I have known this man 
and my father knew his family prior to my birth and they came over 
fiom the old country." As if he were determined to lend the money. 
You know what you can do with a client. You can point out certain 
things to him and if he doesn't want to follow those things, you are 
stymied. You still go ahead and draw the papers. Then after that first 
case, lo and behold the Tribune mentioned that this man DeLucia had 
put a mortgage on his property and made out to a trustee named 
Joseph J. Butler. Even my wife screamed at me for being connected 
with such people. So I got a little fed up. The next time I told him, 
"Here is what is what; what do you want to do about it?" He said, 
"Just draw a mortgage. That is enough security. I am sure the man 
is all right." 

Mr. Halley. Was there n_o discussion of the interest rate? 

Mr. Butler. I asked him what he wanted. He said 31/. percent. I 
said okay. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any discussion of the terms of pa3nnent ? 

Mr. Butler. I wanted him to get as much as he could get personally. 
I would have wanted 6 at least. 

Mv. Halley. On such a mortgage. 

Mr. Butler. If I had $40,000 to give : yes. 

Mr. Halley. The transaction impressed you at the time as being at 
least unusual ? 



326 ORGAISriZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Butler. It was unusual in this sense, that Bennett seemed to 
think that Ricca was absokitely trustworthy as far as paying back 
the loan was concerned. As I get the picture, and I am sure I am 
divulging no confidences, and I am talking as freely as I can here, 
everything I knoAv, as a matter of fact, it seems to me that he thought 
more of Ricca than the general public did. However, he still wanted 
his security. 

Mr. Halley. He wanted a loan on record, on mortgage record ; is 
that right? 

Mr. Butler. Right. He wanted security for his money. 

The Chairman. Any further questions? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

When did you last discuss this matter with Bennett? 

Mr. Butler. May I look at this ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Butler. Probably in May. No ; we discussed it one day. What 
was that again ? I believe your committee came to town and we dis- 
cussed a few words. He asked me if I would be embarrassed if I was 
called in here and I said yes, I would be. He said he was sorry he got 
me into this thing, but just go ahead and tell any truth you want to. 
It is perfectly all right. Not for one second did he try to dissuade me 
from saying one single thing to you. 

Mr. Halley. Did he get in touch with you on that occasion? 

Mr. Butler. No. I went out to the Sportsman's Park race track 
with my wife and several other people. We had a big party out there. 
He works there, and I bumped into him out there. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go up to the office to see him ? 

Mr. Butler. I did. I went to get a pass for a friend of mine, who 
waited outside the gate so he won't have to pay his way in. 

Mr. Halley. Had you spoken to him on the telephone prior to that 
about coming out to the park ? 

Mr. Butler. I doubt it. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Did he give you a pass every year ? 

Mr. Butler. He has mailed me one for the last 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. He mailed you a pass this year ? 

Mr. Butler. I think you can pick those up at any drug store. They 
are all over. 

Mr. Halley. But the meeting with him was not prearranged in any 
way? 

Mr. Butler. No. 

Mr. Halley. He raised this point of the committee; is that right? 

Mr. Butler. I might have raised it. I might have read about it. 
There was something in the paper about Johnston, whom I have never 
met, being investigated in Florida. I just asked him in passing the 
time. Then he asked about this business here. 

Mr. Halley. Did you in any way associate these loans with John- 
ston ? 

Mr. Butler. Oh, no. I don't know Johnston from a bale of hay. I 
wouldn't know him if he walked in. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not Bennett had borrowed 
the money or any part of the money with which to make these loans? 

Mr. Butler. No ; I have no knowledge of that whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever tell you that he borrowed a substantial 
part of the money from Johnston ? 



ORGANIZEID CRIMEi IN ESTTERSTATE COMMERCE 327 

Mr. Butler. He never mentioned his name. 

Mr. Halley. With which to make these loans. 

Mr. Butler. He never mentioned his name. 

Mv. Halley. Do 3'on know Johnston ? 

Mr. Butler. I think he was pointed out to me once. I never met 
him. 

Mr. Halley. You never met him ? 

j\Ir. Butler. No. I don't think I would know him if he walked in. 

Mr. Halley. I have no other questions. 

The Chairman. You didn't say, "Bennett, where in the world did 
you get the money to make this sort of loan ?" 

Do you discuss matters with thim that way? 

Mr. Butler. No. The only time I ever discussed anything with 
him was with my wife. I told her about Bennett coming in. I was 
a little bit envious, that was all. 

Tlie Chairmax. Did you say, "Bennett, why are you making loans 
to an unsavory character like Ricca ?" 

]Mr. Butler. As a matter of fact, the first minute I was in there I 
didn't recognize that name DeLucia. 

The CiiAiRMAx. When did you first recognize it? 

Mr. Butlj:r, He told me about 2 minutes after I was there, and I 
almost fainted. I never met the man before that. 

The Chairman. Didn't you ask Mr. Bennett, your client, about it 
then after you recognized him, and say, "How come you are having 
business with a fellow like thisT' 

]Mr. Butler. Oh, no. When Bennett was first in the office and men- 
tioned DeLucia, for the first minute I didn't know who he was talking 
about. After that he said, "You might have read about him in the 
paper, the man they call Paul Ricca." Then it hit me who they are. 

The Chairman. Then didn't you ask him "Why are you doing busi- 
ness with that fellow?'' 

Mr. Butler. No, I did not. I didn't think it was any of my business. 
He is a good friend of mine but he is not an intimate companion. He 
is no pal. 

The Chairman. Any further questions ? 

]\Ir. Robinson. I have one question. 

In connection with the first loan you say the amount that passed in 
your office was $40,000 ? I think that is what you said. 

Mr. Butler. I know I had one check, I believe the first time I had 
a check. It seems to me there were three payments, one of 10, one of 
10, and one of 20, but I only passed over the last one. I believe those 
first two payments were made while the loan was in process. 

The Chairman. Anyway, you only gave him one check? 

Mr. Butler. To my knowledge, yes. I believe it was for $20,000. 
I did query with, "Where is the other $20,000?" and I believe he told 
me there were other checks that passed. He evidently trusted that 
man Ricca a lot more than the average citizen would. 

The Chairman. If these other checks had been passed prior to that 
time, j\Ir. Bennett didn't even have a note when they were passed, 
did he, because the note was just signed the day before you delivered 
the check, apparently. 

]Mr. Butler. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Why would the $20,000 be made out to the Mercantile 
National Bank instead of DeLucia? 



328 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Butler. You've got me here. Just one second. 

Pay to the order of Mercantile National Bank, $20,000. 

May I ask a question to answer your question. You can come 
right back at me if you wish. 

Mr. Halley. That is all right. We are just trying to get the facts. 

Mr. Butler. I know. Wasn't there another check to DeLucia be- 
sides this for $20,000? 

Mr. Halley. No. There was an earlier check, you see. That is the 
last check. We are trying to find out what happened. You will 
agree that this doesn't look like an ordinary loan, won't you, no part 
of it, from beginning to end ? Would you agree with that? 

Mr. Butler. I will say it could be an ordinary loan. 

Mr. Halley. Anything could be, but this doesn't have the indica- 
tion of one, does it ? 

Mr. Butler. I could be wrong, but I am fairly well convinced in 
my own mind that this is an ordinary loan from Bennett to Ricca 
maybe for past favors, maybe because of obligations, but as I gathered 
it from him, and I did not delve into his conscience or what he was 
doing, for favors maybe to his father. I believe they, were from the 
same town, Cicero or some such thing. You say it is not the ordi- 
luiry loan. It is not an ordinary loan in the sense that I didn't go out 
and get insurance for the borrower, no. But it is ordinary in the 
sense that ni}' client is protected in the sense that he has a note and 
he has got security for that note. 

Mr. Halley. Doesn't it almost look as if he had reason for wanting 
to create a formal transaction and so he came to you and had you 
go through 

Mr. Butler. And I was the goat. 

Mr. Haixey. That is right. You went through the procedure of 
drawing some papers. 

Mr. Butler. I think I know what you are gettijig at from reading 
the papers, but I don't think Bennett would do that. I think he 
Avould come out open and above board and tell me if he wanted that. 

Mr. Halley. Let's eliminate the friendship and the loyalty. This 
is a very serious matter and let's try to be objective. First, your very 
statement tliat there must have been either past favors or some sense 
of obligation indicates that there is some factor that is lacking in the 
ordinary loan as it strikes you. Isn't that right? 

Mr. Butler. The only real factor that strikes me there is why Ricca 
didn't go to a bank and get the money. 

Mr. Halley. Let me give you some other real facts. 

Mr. Butler. Not a personal loan from a friend for that amoimt of 
money. 

JNIr. Halley. It also wasn't handled from start to finish in a busi- 
ness-like fashion ; was it ? 

Mr. Butler. The first loan definitely was. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't the money paid out before the note w^as ever 
drawn and the mortgage gotten? 

Mr. Butler. Yes; but as far as I was concerned, I did my job. I 
protected my client. I was not worried about Ricca getting his 
money. 

Ml'. Halley. I am asking you whether this was an ordinary trans- 
action. In the usual type of loan transaction, where a man comes in 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 329 

and wants a niortgaoe for protection, ]ie doesn't usually do it after 
he has j)aid over half the money ; does he ? 

Mr. Butler. That, of course, I will agree to. 

JNIr. Halley. All right. Will you also agree to the fact that usually 
you keep the papers in your office after j^ou have drawn a mortgage? 

Do 3'ou keep the abstract and you keep the file ? 

Mr. BuTLEK. You do not ; you turn them over to your client. 

]Mr, Halley. You keep a closing sheet in your record. 

Mr. Butler. I have a closing sheet and turn it over to my client. 
As a matter of fact, 90 percent of our mortgages are through houses, 
and those we give to the client, too, and close out the file. He wants 
the closing sheet. The bank has theirs. 

]\Ir. Halley. Do j'ou have carbon paper in j^our office? 

Mr. Butler. Yes ; we have carbon paper in the office. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you kee]) a copy of your closing sheets ? 

Mr. Butler. No; I don't. What good is it to mo? 

Mr. Halley. Don't you want some record of what you have done?" 
You are a real-estate lawyer. Years from now your transactions 
come back to roost. Do you mean to say you draw real-estate trans- 
actions and keep no records in your office of what you have done? 

You can't tell us right now, but we want to know who gave you the 
abstract of title. We want to know that, and I am going to put on 
you the obligation of finding that company because your client Bennett 
doesn't have that abstract. That leaves you in a rather difficult posi- 
tion. There is no abstract around. 

Mr. Butler. I could call up there, I am quite sure, and get hold of 
that companj' . 

Mr. Halley'. I am sure you can, but that is your responsibility. 

Mr. Butler. I will be glad to do it. 

Mr. Halley. You should have a file around showing at least a 
letter that accompanied the abstract . 

Mr. Butler. I possibly have something like that. I might have a 
letter from the company saying it wtII be ready in 10 days. 

Mv. Halley. That would help a lot because we certainly would like 
to know the company that abstracted that title. 

Mr. Butler. I should be able to think of the name of it, too. La- 
Porte Countv Abstract Co. 

The Chairmax. One point here, Mr. Butler, is that this first $10,000 
check is 12 days before the deed of trust and the mortgage ever was 
signed. I don't know how the first $10,000 was paid but that does look 
sort of strange, doesn't it ? 

Mr. Butler. He did not do that on my advice. 

The Chairman. A month and 12 days. 

JNIr. Butler. He did not do that on my advice, let me assure you of 
that. I do remember saying at the time that you sure trust this fellow. 
I do remember saying if I had that kind of money, I would like to help 
a friend but I wouldn't trust him that much. I will admit it is ir- 
regular in that regard, too, 

Mr. Halley. You remember telling the committee a little while 
ago that he came in determined to make the loan. 

Mr. Butler. He told me he was going to make the loan, period. 
Eight. 

G8958 — 51— pt. 5 22 



330 ORGAlSriZEiD CRIMEi IN nsTTERSTATE OO'MMERCE 

Mr. Halley. It wasn't primarily a business transaction, it was some- 
thing he had determined to do. 

Mr. Butler. Yes ; with as much security as he could get. 

Mr. Kalley. Then fnially we get to the last check for $20,000 to the 
Mercantile National Bank and so far we don't even know why it was 
made out to the Mercantile Bank instead of to the mortgagor. 

Mr. Butler. May I see that check again? That is on a Florida 
bank, I see, Miami Beach, Fla, This check evidently was never cashed 
by Paul Ricca, was it? There is no evidence of endorsement on it. 
It is possible, and I think this is the situation. I think that Bennett 
deposited this $20,000 to the account of the bank. Then he probably 
got a cashier's check and paid Ricca with a cashier's check. That is 
my understanding. 

JMr. Halley. kSo you never delivered any check to Ricca. 

Mr. Butler. I believe I delivered the cashier's check for $20,000, 
not the other two. 

Mr. Halley. You mean the Mercantile Bank — this is dated June 17, 
1948, and it apparently cleared the Mercantile Bank that day. The 
mortgage is dated June 22, 1948. Did a cashier's check come up 
from the Mercantile Bank to yonr office? 

Mr. Butler. No. I believe Mr. Bennett mailed me a check for 
$20,000 to give to Mr. Ricca. 

Mr. Halley. Was it for $20,000 or for $30,000? 

Mr. Butler. I think it was for $20,000. 

Mr. Halley. We are missing a $10,000 payment here. 

Mr. Butler. I still think it was for $20,000. Although I know 
that $40,000 was the amount of the note. 

Mr. Halley. The bank statement will show it. Let me see, for 
June 1948. Here it is. Here we are, June 1948. This will give it. 
A check for $20,000. That is this check. You can't tell. Here you 
have just the $20,000 check. There is no showing of any second 
$10,000 passing at all. 

Mr. Butler, we will have to clear that phase of it np. We can't 
expect you to, but do you remember what you turned over to Mr. 
DeLucia? 

Mr. Butler. I believe I turned over a $20,000 check, and I believe 
it was either a cashier's or a certified check. I think, though, it was 
a cashier's check. I gather from your refi'eshing my memory as we 
go along, I believe that $20,000 was deposited for the purpose of 
getting a cashier's check. 

The Ctiairman. Anyway, you know you turned over some check? 

Mr. Butler. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. AVhy would you have to give a cashier's check to 
Mr. DeLucia as contrasted to an ordinary check? AYhat would be 
the point? Isn't that another unusual circumstance? 

Mr. Blttler. Unless DeLucia, whatever his name is, asked for it. 
I didn't know it was a cashier's check or a certified check. 

Mr. Halley. It certainly would be unusual to ask for a cashier's 
check. 

Mr. Butler. A certified check you would think Avould be sufficient. 

Mr. Halley. It would be better than a cashier's check. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 



ORGANIZEID CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 331 

Mr. Halley. On the second mortgage certainly tliere were plenty 
of unnsnal aspects. That was even more unnsnal than the first. 

Mr. Butler. Granted. 

Mr. Halley. No other questions, sir. Will you give us the name 
of that company ? 

Mr. Butler. "^ Yes, I will call. I am across the street and I will 
drop in tomorrow and give it to you. 

The Chairman. Yes. Let us know. Thank you, Mr. Butler. 

Mr. Butler. Okay. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF HUGO BENNETT, SURFSIDE, FLA. 

Mr. Halley. We are trying to straigliten out the payments that 
were made on the first loan. We have here a check dated May 5 
that you made out to Mr. DeLucia ; is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Let's see how you delivered the May 5 check to 
him. How did that get to Mr. DeLucia ? 

Mr. Bennett. I gave it to either him or his wife. I don't remember 
which. 

The Chairman. You gave it to them or mailed it to him ? 

Mr. Bennett. I gave it to him. 

The Chairman. You were here in Chicago at the time ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. You are sure you handed that over to him? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. Either to him or to his wife. I don't remem- 
ber which, but it was in Chicago here that I gave this check. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. When did you make the second payment to him? 

Mr. Bennett. At the time that the mortgage was made out. 

Mr. Halley. How much did you pay on that occasion? 

Mr. Bennett. That was $30,000. 

Mr. Halley. We have a check here for $20,000 made out by you to 
the Mercantile National Bank. 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Five days before the date of the mortgage. 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. How did you handle that transaction ? 

Mr. Bennett. I got a $10,000 from Jacksonville by wire. I made 
a $20,000 check, and with that $10,000 check that I had, which I think 
I endorsed over to the bank to be made payable to Nancy or Paul 
DeLucia. I don't remember which. And there was a cashier's 
check for $30,000 which I sent by mail to the best of my recollection 
to Chicago for the transaction to be completed on the first mortgage. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any reason for not putting the $10,000 
from Jacksonville through your bank account ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. You got a cashier's check for $30,000 ? 

Mr. Bennett. I am quite sure I did. I am almost positive. 

Mr. Halley. The $10,000 from Jacksonville came from whom? 

Mr. Bennett. From Mr. Johnston. 

Mr. Halley. He wired it? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, if I remember right. I am quite sure he wired 
it. 



332 ORGAN^IZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

JNIr. Halley. Was there a particular liiirry? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I just asked him to send it to me, and so he 
said all right, I will wire it to you now. 

INIr. Halley. Did you tell him there Avas no need to wire it iust 
send me a check ? Mr. DeLucia is in no hurry. 

Mr. Bennett. I don't remember what the conversation w^as, but 
I just asked him to send it to me and he Avired it to me. I believe h& 
was leaving Jacksonville or something. I don't remember the exact 
details of it. 

Mr. Halley. What did you do with the cashier's check ? 

Mr. Bennett. To the best of my recollection I mailed it to Joe 
Butler. 

Mr. Halley. Did Butler ever give you a title abstract for the house, 
the summer house in Indiana ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't think so. I don't think that goes with a 
mortgage. 

Mr. Halley. Did you get any papers from him besides the mort- 
gage and the note? 

Mr. Bennett. No, just the mortgage and the note. 

Mr. Halley. You are the auditor for two large enterprises, are 
you not? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You are careful about your financial matters. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You kept these papers relating to this note and loan 
together ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have brought to this committee every paper voii 
got from Butler? *^ 

Mr, Bennett. Yes, to the best of my recollection. I can't find any- 
thing else. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ask him to be sure to protect you and to han- 
dle this as a business transaction ? 

Mr. Bennett. I did. 

Mr. Halley. He has just finished testifying that you weren't too 
concerned about the business aspects, but were more concerned about 
getting the loan put through. 

Mr. Bennett. I wouldn't say that. I told him to be sure and check 
the collateral, the security on the mortgage and make sure that every- 
thing was in order. I also asked him to check and see if there were 
any Government liens on the security. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ask him to check to see if it was insured ? 

Mr. Bennett. I take that more as a matter of course on the part 
of the attorney himself. I may have asked him that and I may not 
have. 

Mr. Halley. In the case of the second loan, who decided on the 3i/> 
percent? 

Mr. Bennett. Both of us decided. 

Mr. Halley. Who is both, you and Eicca ? 

Mr. Bennett. I think we— I don't remember just exactly how that 
came about, but I remember that w^e decided on ^i/o percent. 

Mr. Halley. Who decided, who is -^ve"? Did you discuss it with 
-aicca? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, I think I did. 



ORGAXIZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 333 

Mr. Halley. Did you discuss it with your lawyer? 

Mr. Bennei't. Yes, I think I did. 

Mr. Halley. Whs Ricca trying to get the lowest possible interest 
rate ? 

Mr. Bennett. Naturally. 

Mr. Halley. "Was there actually a negotiation about the interest 
rate? 

Mr. Bennett. Not too much. There was discussion about it, of 
•course. 

Mr. Halley. You had already committed yourself to lend that money 
2 years previously ; is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. Practically, yes, if he couldn't get any more money. 
He tried to get some money in the meantime and he wasn't successful. 

Mv. Halley. So you had agreed to give it to him, is that right? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When you went to your lawyer didn't he point out to 
you that 3i/^ percent was very low for a second mortgage ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. I don't remember whether we even discussed 
that matter at all. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever tell you he was embarrassed at having been 
trustee on a loan to Ricca ? 

]Mr. Bennett. No ; I don't think he ever told me that. 

Mr. Halley. He never mentioned anything like that ? 

Mr. Bennett. I knew that his name came out in the papers. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever discuss that with him ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, yes, I did. 

Mr. Halley. Who paid his fee? 

Mr. Bennett. I paid the first fee, and ]Mr. DeLucia paid the second 
fee. 

Mr. Halley. Did you pay it directly yourself ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. The first time? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did jou pay for the cost of the abstract? 

Mr. Bennett. I just paid a fee. I don't know whether there was 
any cost of abstract. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ])ay in cash or by check? 

Mr. Bennett. By check. 

Mr. Halley. Drawn on your Mercantile Bank account? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. I wonder if we can find that check. That would be in 
what month ; do you think of it ? 

jMr. Bennett. I don't know. I couldn't say. I think you will find 
a check in there made payable to Joseph Butler. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Amis, do you want to start looking? 

You say the second time DeLucia paid it? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he pay it directly or did he give it to you to 
pay over? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; he paid it directly. 

Mr. Halley. How do you know that? 

Mr. Bennett. Mr. Butler told me. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Butler told you that Mr. DeLucia paid him 
directly ? 



334 O'RGANIZEiD CR'IMEi IN ESTTERSTATE CiO'MMERCE 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. He therefore didn't charge you any money? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know what Mr. DeLucia paid? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know what he paid. I presume it was around 
$250 or something like that. He did tell me. Mr. Butler did tell 
me what the fee was, but I don't remember exactly what it was. I 
think it was around $250. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to Mr. Butler's office with Mr. DeLucia 
on either of these mortgages ? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I didn't go to the office with him. 

Mr. Halley. Who went to Butler's office on the second mortgage 
with you? 

Mr. Bennett. I did. 

Mr. Halley. Did DeLucia go at all ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't tliink so. 

Mr. Halley. How did Butler communicate to DeLucia the amount 
of the fee? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, he sent it to his home. 

Mr. Halley. You mean he sent the bill ? 

Mr. Bennett. He sent a bill. 

Mr. Halley. To DeLucia's home? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he tell you that ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, he did. 

]\Ir. Halley. When did he tell you that? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, he told me that sometime during the summer 
sometime. 

Mr. Halley. Did you discuss the matter with him after the loan 
was finished ? 

Mr. Bennett. What matter do you mean ? 

Mr. Halley. The mortgage, after it was all drawn up and closed 
out, did you ever discuss it again? 

Mr. Bennett. We might have. I don't see anything to discuss, 
though, after it was all finished. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever talk to him about this committee's inves- 
tigation ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, I talked to him. I told I thought he might be 
called into this investigation. 

Mr. Halley. When and where did you tell him that? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, I had seen him at my office several times. He 
comes out to the race track quite often. 

Mr. Halley. As your guest? 

Mr. Bennett. No. He is a patron. 

Mr. Halley. What do you mean by patron ? 

Mr. Bennett. He is a regular bettor. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever give him a pass? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Doesn't he come as your guest, then, on your pass ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, 1 wouldn't say that. There are so many passes 
out it is nothing unusual. 

Mr. Halley. Have you given him a season pass to the track? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 



orgaxize;d crime ix intterstate commerce 335 

Mr. Halley. You say lie has been in your office several times? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat discussion did you have and when ? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, nothing particukirly. We have been friends 
for many, many years and tliere are a lot of things we can talk about. 
We have been in the same group of young people together. 

Mv. Halley. Did ]Mr. Ricca communicate with you after he testified 
before this committee in Washington? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

I\Ir. Halley. Did he directly or indirectly convey to you the fact 
that he had been questioned about these loans ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

JNIr. Halley. Did you hear about it directly or indirectly? 

Mv. Benneit. Through the newspapers. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you see it in the newspapers? 

Mr. Bennett. The Miami newspaper. 

Mr. Halley. What did you see in the Miami newspaper ? 

Mr. Bennett. It said that Mr. Ricca was questioned about $120,000 
in loans. 

Mr. Halley. Did you read that in Miami ? 

Mr. Bennett. In Miami. 

Mr. Halley. This summer? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When were you in INIiami ? 

Mr. Bennett. I was in Miami between approximately 2 or 3 days 
after Labor Day ; I left here and I came back about 2i/^ weeks later, 
I tliink it was. 

Mr. Halley. Was it after that that 5'ou spoke to Butler or before 
that? 

Mr. Bennett. I spoke to him after that, too. I saw him after that. 

ISIr. Halley. Did you speak to him about these loans after that? 

Mr. Bennett. Not particularly. Our conversation 

Mr. Halley. Did you discuss it at all ? 

Mr. Bennett. Not about the investigation ; no. 

Mr. Halley. About the fact that he might be questioned about the 
loans? 

Mv. Bennett. We talked about that several times. I don't remem- 
ber the last time I talked to him about it, but I talked to him about 
that several times. 

Mr. Halley. Let's start with the first time. When did you first talk 
to Mr. Butler about the possibility that he might be asked about these 
loans ? 

Mr. Bennett. Practically all summer. I saw him on and off all 
summer, and this was a matter that was evidently coming up, and on 
several occasions I might have talked to him about it. There is noth- 
ing except just general conversation. 

Mr. Halley. What did you say and when? Did you have several 
conversations ? 

Mr. Bennett. Our conversation was alwaj^s general. We never 
made any point of meeting for any such discussion or anything like 
that. 

Mr. Halley. You said he would come to your office at the park. 

Mr. Bennett. My office is right at the race track. 



■336 ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE CX)iMMERCE 

]\Ir. Hallet. That is right, at the track. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You say he came to the track quite frequently as a 
■bettor; is that correct? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; that is correct. 

Mr, Halley. How often : once a week ? 

Mr. Bennett. I would say once a week. 

Mv. Halley. Twice a week ? 

Mr. Bennett. Maybe once a week or twice a week. 

Mr. Halley. More often than that? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't think so, no. 

Mr. Halley. On those occasions he would come to your office and 
say hello? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; and say hello. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. On how many of these occasions did you and he talk 
about the possibility of his being called upon to testify about these 
loans ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Was it once at least ? 

Mr. Bennett. At least once, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Was it more than once ? Can you say that ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. You have said a few minutes ago that it was several 
times. Are you trying to answer in every possible way so as to be sure 
that you are agreeing with him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I don't remember an}' particular conversation 
about it, to be truthful. 

Mr. Halley. Were there a number of conversations or one ? 

Let's get that settled first. 

Mr. Bennett. I might have mentioned it more than once. I don't 
know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you mention it more than once? 

ISIr. Bennett. I don't know. I don't remember. 

Mr. Haixey. You have said you read about it in the Florida paper 
in September, is that right ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You came back here. That must be only a week or 
two ago. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you talk to him about it then ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't think so. It was casually mentioned. I 
remember talking about tliis Drury thing and things like that in 
general, l)ut I didn't talk to him specifically about coming in on this 
investigation or anything. In fact, there were doubts in my mind 
whetlier he would be called for anything. 

Mr. Halley. Is the track open now ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. When did it close? 

Mr. Bennett. It closed September 1. 

Mr. Halley. Where did vou speak to him after you returned from 
Florida ? 

Mr. Bennett. At my office. 

Mr. Halley. At the' track? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 



ORGAXIZEiD CRIME IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 337 

Mr. Halley. Did he make a special trip out to tlie track to see you? 

Mr. Bexxett. I don't know Avhether it was a special trip or not. 

Mr. Halley. There was no race going on. 

Mr. Bexxett. That is correct, but there is racing going on next door 
at Hawthorne, and he is a frequent patron of race tracks. 

iSIr. Halley. Whether or not he came from Hawthorne or Chicago 
to see you, he certainly wasn't at your track to see races there; is 
that right. 

Mr. Bexxett. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. How often did you see him since September 10, 1950? 

Mr. Bexxett. Once or twice, since September 10. Once or twice. 

Mr. Halley. Since you came back from Florida how often have you 
seen him ? 

]Mr. Bexxett. Once or twice. 

JNIr. Halley. Was it once or twice ? It is just this last month. Take 
your time and think. 

Mr. Bexxett. I think it was two occasions. 

Mr. Halley. Twice? 

Mr. Bexxett. Twice, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Both at your office? 

Mr. Bexxett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. He dropped in to see you ? 

Mr. Bexxett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. On both occasions did you talk about the coming in- 
vestigation ? 

Mr. Bexxett. No, not particularly; no. 

Mr. Halley. Did 3^ou talk it on one occasion ? 

Mr. Bexxett. The conversation was so general I really don't re- 
member what we talked about. 

Mr. Halley. You will simply have to stop being evasive. I am 
going to keep on asking these c[uestions until I get definite answers. 
This occurred only in the last 2 or 3 weeks, and I am going to insist on 
definite answers. Why don't you just tell the committee what hap- 
pened i He came to your office twice since you returned from Florida. 

]Mr. Bexxett. To the best of my recollection, yes. 

Mr. Halley. What is the best date you can place for the first time 
he came to your office? 

Mr. Bexxett. It was over 2 weeks ago. 

Mr. Halley. Did he phone first? 

Mr. Bexxett. I don't remember whether he did or not. 

Mr. Halley. How did he know you were back from Florida? 

Mr. Bexxett. I was only gone a short time to Florida. 

Mr. Halley. Did he phone to find out if you were back ? 

Mr. Bexxett. He might have. 

Mr. Halley. Did he T 

Mr. Bexxett. He might have. My secretary might have taken the 
call. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you talk to him on the telephone before the first 
visit? 

Mr. Bexxett. I don't recall talking to him. I talked to him once. 
I don't remember whether my secretary or myself talked to him on 
the phone. 

Mr, Halley. That was before the first visit? 



338 ORGAN-IZEID CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Bennett. I cloirt know Avhether it Avas the first or the second 
visit. 

Mr. Halley. What was this phone conversation that either your 
secretary or you had? 

Mr. Bennett. No special conversation. 

Mr. Halley. Was it to make an appointment to see you? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't recall exactly what it was. He just came 
out to see me and I talked to him about these things. 

Mr. Halley. Just what was said? Just start at the beginning and 
give the conversation between you and him the first time he came out 
to the track to see you about 2 weeks ago. 

Mr. Bennett. It was just general conversation about things that 
were going on and this investigation by the conniiittee and so forth. 
There was nothing 

Mr. Halley. That is not an answer. Will you state to the best of 
your ability what the conversation was? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I told him if he was called in on this thino-, 
just to tell the truth, things like that. That is all, and I hoped he 
Avouldn't be— that I was sorry if he would be embarrassed by this 
thing. That is about the gist of the conversation. 

Mr. Halley. Before you came back from Florida you had been 
advised that the committee wanted to serve a subpena on you, is that 
right? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halmy. Hadn't your secretary been told that the committee 
was going to serve a subpena on you ? 

Mr Bennett. Before I came back from Florida? Before I left 
for Florida? 

Mr. Halley. No, before you came back. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. So when you returned to your office about 2 or 21/4 
weeks ago you knew that you were going to be called as a witness? 

Mr. Bennett. Oh, yes ; when I returned, yes. 

Mr. Halley Does that help refresh your recollection on the con- 
versation you had with your lawyer when he came out to the track to 
see you ? 

Mr. Bennett. It was just general conversation, I remember, about 
this thing and I told him I was sorry if I embarrassed him, aettino- 
him into this thing. ^ 

Mr. Halley. He didn't come all the wav out there to hear that. Did 

he ask you what happened and what the background of the loan was? 

^ Mr. Bennett. He knows all that. I told him about the background 

of the loan long ago. We talked about that, too, yes, now that I 

recall. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ask you — what did you say ? 

Mr. Bennett. I told him what it was, the same thing I said before, 
that Mr. DeLucia needed this money for these improvements and I 
was making him this loan. That is all there is to that. 

Mr. Halley. How did you get into saying that to him ? Was he 
asking you some questions? Let's get away from this general con- 
versation business. You are just w^asting your time and the com- 
mittee's and making a very bad impression. 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know what you mean. I don't know what 
you are driving at. 



ORGAISriZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 339 

The Chairmax. Mr. Bennett, Avhen he came in Avhat did he say and 
Avhat did you say ? Apparently he came out there to see you on some- 
thing- important. The track wasn't runnino-. You were there. He 
came out there to see you. What did he say and what did you say? 

Mr. Bennett. It wasn't particularly important. I guess he was 
just 

The Chairman. Whether it was important or not, just tell us what 
it was. 

Mr. Bennett. Well, it was about these — we talked about these loans 
and things. We just rehashed the thing, that is all, just what went 
on, whatever I told him before. We just went through the same 
thing over again. 

Mr. Halley. Just what was said? Please don't summarize it. 
Give the conversation that happened 2 weeks ago, how did you rehash 
it, in what way, what was said tirst, what was said second. Do the 
best you can. He walked in the door. What happened? 

]\Ir. Bennett. I guess we greeted each other. I just told him there 
was nothing for him to worry about as far as the investigation goes, 
and just to tell the truth about everything. 

]\Ir. Halley. You have just finished telling the committee there was 
some talk about the nature of the loans and the background and that 
}'ou rehashed the thing. How did you rehash it ? 

Mr. Bennett. There was no rehashing to be done, because I ex- 
plained to Mr. Butler in the verv^ beginning what the loan was about. 

Mr. Halley. But you just said a few minutes ago that you did 
rehash. Now you said there was no rehashing to be clone. 

Mr. Bennett. He might have asked me what position are you in 
on these things? Have you anything to fear? And I said "Xo." I 
told him all I had to do was to tell the truth of the matter and that is 
all there is to it. Then we talked about other things. We got into 
conversation about other things. 

Mr. Halley. What other conversation did you have ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, we talked about Drury, we talked about dif- 
ferent things that had been going on during the clay. 

Mr. Halley. "Wliat other conversation clicl you have ? 

^Ir. Bennett. I don't remember anything else. 

Mr. Halley. Then you say there was another visit ? 

Mr. Bennett. I think he was out again, but I think he was on his 
way to the race track or something. 

Mr. Halley. Did you talk about this investigation on the second 
occasion ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't remember. We might have. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't remember. We might have. 

Mr. Halley. How long after the first visit was the second one? 

Mr. Bennett, One or two days apart, I believe. 

Mr. Halley. This is only about 2 weeks ago that you saw him. 
Did you talk about this investigation on the second visit? 

Mr. Bennett. We might have. I probably did. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go over the mortgage and the note? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you have these papers ? 

Mr. Bennett. I had them in a safety-deposit box. 

Mr. Halley. Where? 

Mr. Bennett. In Cicero. 



340 ORGANIZEiD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. When did you get them out of the box ? 

Mr. Bennett. A couple of days ago ; 2 or 3 days ago. 

Mr. Halley. You did not get them out for any discussion with Mr. 
Butler? 

Mr. Bennett. No, I didn't have them out then. 

Mr. Robinson. What records did you have in the safety deposit box 
in Cicero ? 

JSIr. Bennett. I had these. 

Mr. -KoBiNSON. Mortgages? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. lioBiNSON. I understood you had those in Florida. 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I asked my wife about them and she said they 
were in a deposit box in Cicero. 

The Chairman. Anything else, Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Eobinson has some questions. 

The Chairman. Let's get on. 

Mr. KoBiNsoN. In ansAver to a question that the chairman addressed 
to you a while ago as to whom you consulted in connection with these 
loans I believe you mentioned the only person you consulted was your 
wife. 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Robinson. What was your wife's attitude about your making 
loans of these sizes ? 

Mr. Bennett. She more or less leaves all business transactions up 
to me. She said, "If you think it is all right, I think it is all right." 

Mr. Robinson. Did you think it was all right ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, I thought it was all right. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you really want to make the loans ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, to help the man out, I did. 

Mr. Robinson. Dicl you really want to make the loans ? 

Mr. Bennett. To help the man out. I wouldn't want to make 
them unless I was helping someone out. 

Mr. Robinson. Do j'ou have a clubhouse near your offices at Sports- 
man's Park ? 

Mr. Bennett. The clubhouse and the offices are in the same building. 

Mr. Robinson. Who is permitted in the clubhouse ? 

Mr. Bennett. Anyone. It is public. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have a sort of separate clubhouse where 
friends of the owners of the track come, a bar ? 

Mr. Bennett. It is not what I would call private. It is not open 
to everyone, but it is rather public, I would say. It is semipublic. 
Anyone can have access to it. 

Mr. Robinson. Does everyone have access to it ? 

Mr. Bennett. No, not everyone goes there. No, it wouldn't hold 
everyone. 

Mr. Robinson. To whom is it restricted ? 

Mr. Bennett. It is people i:hat are known to be coming out to the 
race for years, the racing commissioners, quite a few politicians who 
come in there, I would say the cream of the bettors aie generally given 
access to those places. 

Mr. Robinson. Who are the cream of the bettors ? 

Mr. Bennett. The cream of the bettors — I mean by that the people 
who are known to be good bettors. I couldn't name them. 



ORGAXIZEID CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERCE 341 

Mr. RoBiNSOx. You have been there 18 years, haven't you ? 

Mr. BENNET'r. Yes. 

Mr. EoBixsox. Who are some of them? 

Mr. Benxett. I coukl explain this a lot better if you could see 
the phice. I don't have anything to do actually with who comes 
in and goes out of there, and none can come in the place without com- 
ing through the regular entrance. To get in this place 

Mr. EoBiNSOx^ Have you ever seen Ralph Capone there ? 

Mr. Bexxett. Never. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Have you. ever seen John Patton there ? 

Mr. Bexxett. Never. That is, while he was there; jes. I have 
seen John Patton there; yes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Have you ever seen Ralph Capone at all ? 

Mr. Bex^x^ett. Yes. I saw him out there. 

]Mr. RoBix\sox". For the first time ? 

Mr. Bexnett, Yes : I might have seen him other times, too, but 
I have not seen him at the race track or any other place of business 
or his home or any place like that. 

Mr. RoBixsox. How about Jack Guzik ? 

Mr. Bexxett. No. 

]\lr. EoBix'^sox. You have never seen him there at all ? 

Mr. Bexx'ett. No. 

The Chairmax. Have you ever seen him at all? Do you know 
him ? 

Mr. Bexxett. I don't think so, except by pictures. 

Mr. RoBix^sox. How about Mr. Denemark? 

Mr. Bexxett. Denemark? Yes. Mr. Denemark used to race 
horses at the track. 

Mr. RoBix-^sox. You used to see Mr. Bidwell there ? 

Mr. Bex^x'ett. Yes, definitely. 

Mr. RoBixsoN. How about James Eagen ? 

Mr. Bexxett. I never saw him. I don't know him. I wouldn't 
know him if I saw him. 

Mr. RoBixsoN. How about Tony Accardo? 

Mr. Bexx'ett. I wouldn't know him. 

Mr. RoBix'SOX. You have never seen him out there ? 

Mr. Bexnett. No. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Or Hymie Levin ? 

Mr. Bex'X^ett. I wouldn't know him. 

Mr. RoBiNsox". Joe Lustfield? 

Mr. Bexxett. Joe Lustfield, yes ; I have seen him around, not often 
though. I haven't seen him in 2 or 3 years. 

jNIr. RoBixsox. Willie Bioif ? 

Mr. Bex^x^ett. I wouldn't know him. 

Mr. RoBiNsox. George Brown? 

Mr. Bexxett. I don't know him. 

Mr. RoBix'sox. Did you ever see Mr. DeLucia there? 

Mr. Bexxett. No. 

Mr. RoBixsoN. Or Louis Campagna ? 

Mr. Bexnett. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Or Philip D'Andrea? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Robix'Son. You never saw any of those there ? 



342 ORGANIZEiD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Bennett. No; none of tliose fellows have ever been in my 
offices, 

Mr. Robinson. That is all. 

The Chairman. Charles Fischetti? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

The Chairman. Murray Hnnii)hreys? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

The Chairman. Frank Nitti? 

Mr. Bennett. Not — no. 

The Chairman. Did yon know Frank Nitti? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; 1 had met him. 

Tlie Chairman. Did you have any business witli him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No business with him. 

The Chairman. Rocco DeGrazia ? Did you ever see him? 

Mr. BENNirrr. I don't know him. 

The Chairman. Rocco DeStefano? Do you know him? 

Mr. Bennett. I don't know him. 

The Chairman. Do you know any of the Capone boys? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

The Chairman. I mean have you ever seen them ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. Out here ; yes. I saw them out there. 

The Chairman. Robert McCullough; do you know him? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. What does he do? 

Mr. Bennett. He is police at the Miami Beach Kennel Club. 

The Chairman. In this little restricted section how many people 
can sit out at Sportsman's Park? 

Mr. Bennett. I am tliinking of the dining room there, the private 
dining room. There is also an upstairs, a place like a solarium, a 
glassed-in enclosure. I would say up there you can seat about 40 or 
50 people. 

JNIr. Robinson. Do you know a lady by the name of Alice McCul- 
lough who used to work there ? 

JSIr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. And to get to this place would they have to go by her 
desk where she sat ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. White. McCullough is a policeman at Miami? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. White. Is that Big Bob McCullough ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I don't know who you mean by Big Bob? 

Mr. White. Flow old is the Bob McCullough that you know? 

Mr. Bennett. I would say he is between 50 and ()0. 

Mr. White. What track is he policeman at ? 

Mr. Bennett. At the Miami B?ach Kennel Club. 

The Chairman. Also out at Sportsman? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes ; I think he is there, too. 

The Chairman. Are you Mr. Patton's personal accountant? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

The Chairman. Do you look after his work? 

Mr. Bennp:tt. No; I don't. 

The Chairman. Do you do an}- work foi- him af all ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 



ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 343 

The Chairman. Did you ever ? 

JNIr. Bexxett. No. 

The Chairman. Isn't this stock of the Miami Beach Kennel Chib, 
Sportsman's Park, and all of these race tracks, of a voting trust for 
that stock? 

Mr. Bennett. There is a voting trust only in the Miami Beach 
Kemiel Club. 

The Chairman. How does tluit voting trust operate? 

Mr. Bennett. As I understand it, the purpose of the voting trust — 
1 am not a member of the voting trust myself, but as I understand 
the purpose of the voting trust is that if anyone dies, they will still 
be able to vote the same stock. 

The Chairman. Still will have control of the majority of the 
stock ? 

Mr. Bennett. I assume that is the purpose of it. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bidwell had that for some time, did he not, 
before his death? 

Mr. Bennett. Bidwell was one of the trustees of it before he died. 

The Chairman. Then W. H. and R. J. Johnston are the trustees 
now ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. Do you have a list of those stockholders? It 
gives a list of the trustees. 

The Chairman, Did you also understand that this was a sort of 
mob-owned stock ? 

Mr. Bennett. That seems to be an outside understanding, but it 
definitely has never been. 

The Chairman. How do you mean an outside understanding? 

Mr. Bennett. I mean people say those things. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether that is true or not? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, if I am to judge by what I see and every- 
thing, it is definitely not. 

Mr. Halle Y. Tell me, do you regard Mr. Ricca as a mob member? 

Mr. Benni:tt. Well, the newspapers do. 

Mr. Halley. Do you ? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. I am just trying to test the standard by which you 
say that the track is not a part of the mob. 

Mr. Bennett. In every dealing that I have had with him he has 
been a gentleman. 

Mr. Halley. From wdiat you know of him do j^ou think he is part 
of the Capone mob ? 

Mr. Bennett. It is hard to believe. 

The Chairman. You say in all the dealings you have had with 
him he has been a gentleman? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have had these two loans. What other deal- 
ings have you had with him ? 

Mr. Bennett. No otlier dealings. 

The Chairman. That is the only dealings? 

Mr. Bennett. That is the only dealings. 

The Chairman. The only thing he has done in this case is to sign 
his name to a piece of paper and take your money, isn't it? 

Mr. Bennett. I think I have good security for it. 



344 ORGANIZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. You haven't gotten any of it back. 

Mr. Bennett. No ; not yet. 

The Chairman. I never did understand liow you paid somebody 
$10,000 here on a loan a month and a lialf before you made the loan. 
How did 3'ou do that? 

Mr. Bennett. I thought — the impression I had at first was that 
lie needed money right away, and I gave liim tliat check for that 
purpose. When he got it he said, "I don't need tliis. Wait until 
you get it all." 

I said, "That is all right. You liave it now. Keep it. I will have 
the mortgage made up when I get the rest of the money." 

The Chairman. That is trusting somebodv an awful long way, 
isn't it, with $10,000 and no security at all ? 

jMr. Bennett. Well, judging by appearances, what I saw that he 
had, I didn't think it was taking much of a risk. 

Mr. Hallet. Where did you get that $10,000? 

Mv. Bennett. That was the first $10,000 I got from Mr. Johnston. 

INIr. Halley. You must really have had the impression there was 
a hurry, to run out and get that $10,000 from Johnston. 

Mr. Bennett. I was under the impression that he needed it right 
away; yes. 

The Chairman. What did he tell you the urgency of the thing was? 

Mr. Bennett. He didn't tell me there was any urgency. I just 
thought there was. 

The Chairman. You wouldn't think there would be anything so 
urgent about putting repairs on this already beautiful farm, would 
you? A lot of people down in Tennessee wait 4, 5, or 6 years to 
build up their farm. 

Air. Bennett. From what I undei'stand, the farm was not in very 
good shape. 

The ChairMx\n. You think that is so urgent that you would have 
to be wiring for money and paying out $10,000 before you even get 
a note signed? 

Mr. Bennett. I didn't wire for this. 

The Chairman. But it was so urgent you fixed it up and sent it 
to him before he even signed the note. 

Mr. Bennett. I think I gave that to his wife, if I am not mistaken. 
I handed it to her. I just thought he was in need of these things for 
the farm immediately. It was the planting season. 

The Chairman. Planting season in September? 

Mr. Bennett. That is just what I thought, the impression I had. 

The Chairman. When you were out there you saw a lot of cattle 
around, didn't you, white-face steers? 

JMr. Bennett. I don't believe I had been out there yet at that time. 
I don't believe I had been out to the farm. I wasn't interested in the 
farm. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bennett, I think you ought to tell us really 
why you made this loan before you left. It would be much better for 
you to tell us about it. 

Mr. Bennett. The reason was because he told me he needed the 
money. 

The Chairman. Well, that just doesn't stand up. I hate to tell 
you that. 



ORGAXIZEID CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 345 

Mr. Bennett. If I tokl you anything else, Senator, I would be 

lying. 

Mr. Halley. Is he lying or are you? 

:^Ir. Bennett. I don't know. I am not lying. . , i 

Mr. Halley. He obviously didn't need the money. You understand 
that now, don't you ? 

Mr. Bennett. That I don't know. 

The Chairman. Obviously there wasn't anything so awtully urg- 
ent about it. You may not be a farmer boy, but you know thut repairs 
or what not on the farm can wait a few months. You doivt liave to 
be in such a terrific hurry to get somebody $10,000 for a farm. 

Mr Bennett. I understand he mentioned something about buying 
some "cattle and things like that. I don't think he had any cattle at 

that time. ^ -, ^ <- „ 

Mr. Robinson. Mr. Bennett, I understood you to say you got a 

$20,000 loan from Mr. Johnston. 

Mr. Bennett. That is right, I did. a;in nnn fiv^f 

^Ir. Robinson. Now I understand you to say you got $10,000 tii&t 
and that is represented by this check. 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. Then you got another $10,000. 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. ^ • .i . ^ i 

Mr. Robinson. Did you tell :Mr. Johnston each time that you wanted 
the $10,000 for investments^ . i d^on aaa i i^ 

Mr Bennett. I think I told him that I wanted $20,000 when he 
first gave me the $10,000. I thought that I might have been able to 

make it up out of my own money. . ^..n aaa ^^ a , r ^9 

Mr. Robinson. Did he refuse to give you the $20,000 the first time? 

Mr. Bennett^. No, no. 

Mr. R')binson. He just gave you 10. _ 

Mr Bennett. He gave me 10 the first time ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. How were you going to make it up out of your own 

money ( 

Mr* Bennett. I don't know. 

Mr HxLLEY. Your bank balance on April 30, 1948, was $l,4f)9.o0. 
How were you going to make up $40,000 out of your own money i 

Mv. Bennett. I don't know. I said I thought I might have been 
able to make it up, to make up the rest. 

Mr Halley. Where was it going to come from ( 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I have different salaiies coming ai dilierent 

times ; year dividends. , , , i 5. a; in nnn 

Mr. Halley. Your income for the whole year wasn t $40,0UU. 
Mr! Bennett. I borrowed $15,000 more. . ^i • 

The Chairman. Mr. Bennett, you are going to stay here m Lhicago 

for a while ? Is that your plan ? 

:Mr. Bennett. Yes. i v i 

The Ch\irm\n. You will remain under subpena, but you don t need 

to come back until we call you, but when Mr. Robinson or anybody 

calls you, you understand you are to come back ? 
Mr. Bennett. I will be very happy to. 
The Chairman. We will look after your records here. Do you 

wanttolethimhaveany of them? 

]\Ir. Halley. I would let him have the mortgages and the notes. 

68958— 51— pt. 5 23 



346 ORGAmZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The ('h.mkman. AVo Mill return to you the installment note, the 
niort o-ao-o, and (he trust deed, the note sioned by INIr. and Mrs. DeLucia. 

Mr. Halley. Just one thino- on (his. I see a check for $210 for 
the lee. 

Mr. Bennett. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Was that tlie amount of the fee? 

INIr. Bennett. No. I think (he fee was $100. and there M'as $10 
for some kind of recordino- oi- some kind of charue. 

Mr. Halley. For recordino- the deed. 

Mr. Bennftt. I think that is what it was. Anyway there was an 
extra $10 for somethino-. 

Mr. Haleey. The fee was $200? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

INIr. Haeley. Thank you. 

Tlie Chairman. We will look after the rest of your records here 
JNIr. Bennett. Thank you. ' ^ 

Mr. Bennett. All rio-ht, sir, thank you. 

The CiiAiRjiAN. Mr. D' Andrea, will you come around, please. 

JNIr. D'Andkea. Yes, sir. 

The CiiAiintAN. Will you hold up your hand. You solenndy swear 
the testnnony you wdl give this connnittce will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothmo- but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. D'Andkea. I do. 

Mr. Robinson. State your full name, please. 

TESTIMONY OF PHILIP D'ANDKEA. HEMET, CALIF. 
Mr. D' Andrea. Philip D'Andrea. 
INIr. Robinson. Where do you liye, Mr. D'Andrea ? 
^Ir. D'Andrea. In Hemet,^ Calif. 

Mr. Robinson. ]Mr. D'Andrea, yon were subpenaed to produce cer- 
tain books and records. 
Mv. D'Andrea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have those records with you ? 
Mv. D'Andrea. I have what I could find. 
INIr. Robinson. Can you identify them briefly? 
JNIr. D'Andrea. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have an envelope containino- any bank state- 
ments ? ^ "^ 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. I have the statement of the last 2 months of 
my bank account. I have the stubs here for the last 2 months. And 
canceled checks for the last month. I have been in the habit, Gentle- 
men, o± tearino' those thinos up since the last committee that I appeared 
before, at which time I had all my papers there, and they haven't been 
returned to me jet. 

Mv. Robinson. What else do you have there ? 

Mr D'Andrea. I have deeds'to two pieces of proi)erty that I have, 
and the deed to a gas station, half interest in a gas station. 

INfr. Robinson. Mr. Chairman, since there are only a feM^ in one 
package 1 ask that they be identified collectively as exhibit No 34 

The CiiAunrAN. We will put them all in oiie packaoe so we can 
iceeji them together. 

(Exhibit No. 34 was returned to Avitness after study by the com- 
mittee.) 



ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 347 



,? 



Mr Robinson. Mr. D'Andrea. what properties do you own 

Mr. D'Andrea. I have a home m Palm Springs, and I have a house 

"\lr."RoBiNSON. What is tlie value of the home in Palm Springs? 

Mr! D'Andrea. It is up for sale now for $20,000. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you buy it for? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I bought it for $23,750. , , v 

Mr. EoBiNsoN. Did you identify your other property? You say 
you have a home ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. In Hemet. 

Mr. Robinson. In Hemet. Wliat is the value of that property f 

Mr. D'Andrea. Its value today is $10,000. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you purchase it for? 

Mr. D'Andrea. $3,500, and I finished it. It was partly completed 
when I bought it. 

Mr Robinson. Do you have any other real property ^ 

l^lr D'Andrea. I have some vacant lots in Hemet, three lots. 

I^Ir! Robinson. The valuation of that property is what? 

^Ir. D'Andrea. Oh, around $4,000. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any other real property i 

Mv. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you liave any personal property i 

Mv. D'Andrea. Furniture. 

Mr. Robinson. Stocks and bonds ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I have no stocks or bonds. 

Mr. Robinson. Any other intangible property ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Furniture at home. 

Mr. Robinson. How about your bank? Do you have any money 
in the bank? 

Mr. D'Andrea. There is my last statement ; very little. 

Mr Robinson. Is that all the money that you have? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I have cash, about $900, about $960. 

Mr. Robinson. Where is that ? x i i ^ 

Mr D'Andrea. I have the $960 at my brother's home. 1 brought 
it with me here. I have $900 over there, and I have about $60 on my 

person. 

Mr. Robinson. That is all you have ? 

Mr D'Andrea. That is all I have in this world. 

^Ir. Robinson. How much money did you have when you came out 
of the penitentiary ? ., ,• ti ii 

Mr D'Andrea. Since I came out of the penitentiary 1 have bokl 
my home that I had at Creek. I got $35,000 for that. It is m Lincoln- 
shire, that is the township of Creek. 

Mr. Robinson. What State? . . ^- i 

Mr. D'Andrea. Illinois. I had a half interest m a gas station here 
and I sold that when I went to California. I took out of there what 
I paid for it, $5,000. That is what I went to California with 

m Robinson. Are you in any business at the present time ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I have a half interest in a gas station. 

Mr. Robinson. Is that your sole source of income? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is all. 

Mr. Robinson. What do you make out of that ( 

Mr D'Andrea. I have been drawing an average ot iJ^oOO oi 5t>3DU a 
month out of it. It hasn't been quite a year that J have had it. 



348 ORGAN^IZEID CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COIVIIVIERCE 

iNIr. Robinson. You appeared and testified before the committee of 
the House that was investigating this situation. 
Mr. D'Andrea. The congressional committee, yes. 
Mr. EoBiNSON. Do you recall making a statement at that hearing 
that you had money on the outside ? 
Mr. D'Andrea. Money on the outside ? 
Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have the statement there. Read what he said. 

Mr. Robinson. In answer to a question by the chairman, which was : 
"Didn't you have any property outside ?" you said, "I had money on the 
outside, yes." 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, sure. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall how much money that was ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I had to make a statement to the parole office. I 
don't recall offhand. I think around $22,000 or $24,000 at the time. 
But I am not sure. I made those statements for the parole office. 
They have everything. In my monthly statements to the parole office 
I have to make out anything that occurs during the month, and they 
have all that. I don't quite recall what the amount was at that time. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you have a cash deposit box ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have one now ? 

Mr. D'Andrea, No ; I haven't. 

Mr. Robinson. How much money did you have in that box at any 
one time ? What was the largest amount you ever had in that box ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Well, before I went away I had sold a piece of prop- 
erty I had in St. Joe, ]\Iich., for $oO,000, and I had gotten a mortgage 
on a piece of property I had here in Chicago for $10,000, and I believe 
that was the most I have ever had in the box, $40,000. 

Mr. Robinson. You have none of that left? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Not a bit. 

Mr. Robinson. What business were you in before you were sent to 
prison ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I was in the cartage business for about 20 years. 

Mr. Robinson. What other business were you in ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I was president of the Italo-American National 
Union, a fraternal insurance society. 

Mr. Robinson. Any other business? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you ever in the gambling business? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I have never been identified with gambling in all 
my life. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you ever in the liquor business ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, sir; positively not. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever receive any money whatsoever from 
gambling or the liquor business? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Not at any time? 

]\Ir. D'Andrea. Never. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you know Al Capone ? 

]\Ir. D'Andrea. Very well. 

Mr. Robinson. Were you associated in business with him ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, sir. 

Mr. Robinson. Wliat was your connection with him? 



ORGANIZE© CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 349 

Mr. D'Andrea. A friendly connection, social. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Purely social? 

]Mr. D'AxDREA. For the time being; yes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What do you mean by the time being? 

]\Ir. D'AxDREA. Well, while I thought it was smart to be associated, 
to mv sorrow. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What was the extent of the association ? 

Mr. D'AxDREA. I was dabbling in politics in the first ward and I 
needed his hel]) at times. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What sort of help did he contribute to you? 

:\rr. D'AxDREA. Help in getting votes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Votes for whom ? 

Mr. D'AxDREA. For the party, whoever was running. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Who were you supporting ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I was a Democrat. 

Mr. RoBixsox. What was your other association with him? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. Nothing, fust purely foolish association. I thought 
it was smart to be identified with him. That was my only association. 
I never made a quarter from that source. I have always been on my 
own. I was in the cartage business at that time. I will say that 
he helped me put on a few trucks. I was doing cartage work for the 
city at the time. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you borrow money from him ? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. Never. I never had any financial transaction with 
the man whatsoever. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you travel with him? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. I made a trip with him once ; yes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. When was that? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. I don't recall the year. It was early in the thirties. 
I don't exactly recall the year now. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Do you recall where you went? 

INIr. D'Axdrea. I went to Florida, and from Florida we flew to some 
island. 

The Ciiairmax. Nassau? Bermuda? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. Nassau. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Where else? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is all. That is the only trip. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Did you ever go to New York with him ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Not that I recall. No ; I have never gone to New 
York with him. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Have you ever been in New York ? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. Yes. 

Mr. RoBixsox. When were you in New York ? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. The last time I was in New York was the time of my 
trial there. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Were you in New York before that? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. Yes ; I had been in New York. 

Mr. RoBixsox. Do you recall the year that you were in New York? 

Mr. D'Andrea. The year of the Dempsey fight there, Dempsey and 
Sharkey, I believe it was. 

Mv. RoBixsox. Did you go alone on that trip ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I went with two other men. 

Mr. RoBixsoN. Who were the}^ ? 



350 O'RGAlSriZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. D'Andrea. A fellow by the name of William Skidmore and 
Al Ford. 

Mr. EoBiNSON. Who is William Skidmore? 

Mr. D'Andrea. He was a man in the junk business here in town. At 
that time he was signin*:: bonds. 

Mr. Robinson. What other business was he in ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. According to the newspapers he was identified with 
gambling. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever engage in any gambling business with 
him? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, sir ; never. I was signing bonds with him. 

Mr. Robinson. Who would j^ou see when you went to New York ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Nobody in particular. 

Mr. Robinson. Can you recall anyone? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I had no friends in New York. I went to see the 
fight there, the Sharkey-Dempsey fight. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Mr. Costello ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Robinson. You have never met him? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Never met him in my life. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Mr. Erickson ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No; I don't. I don't know Mr. Erickson or Mr. 
Costello. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Mr. Accarclo ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Accardo ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Tony Accardo in Chicago ? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. You are a close friend of his ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I have never been close to him. I know him. 

Mr. Robinson. You mentioned that you were president of this 
Italian organization. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Italo-American National Union. 

Mr. Robinson. How long were you president of that? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Over 6 years, 6% years, I believe. 

Mr. Robinson. What period was that ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I think it was from 1934 to 1941, part of 1941. 

Mr. Robinson. Who succeeded you in that office? 

Mr. D'Andrea. A lawyer by the name of Lawrence Marino. 

INIr. Robinson. Do j^ou know a man by the name of Bulger ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Was he ever president of that organization? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes ; he preceded me. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the purpose of that organization ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. At that time it was a mutual benefit society. There 
were about 2,500 members. At the death of any one member there 
was an assessment made of a dollar apiece and a thousand or 1,500 
would be given to the family of the deceased. 

Mr. Robinson. How many policyholders did you have? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is the size of the organization, when I went in. 
During the first year I was in. the State of Illinois passed a law here, 
passed the insurance code. All insurance societies of that t^^pe were to 
operate under the legal reserve. We had to rerate the entire member- 



O'RGANIZEID CRIMEi IN CNTERSTATE CX)MMERCE 351 

ship, and today it is operated on legal reserve the same as the Metro- 
politan or Prudential, creating a reserve with the premium that is 
paid. The membership increased to its peak I guess at around G,000 
during my administration. 

Mr. lioBiNSON. Does that organization have any relationship to 
the Unione Siciliano? . . 

Mr. D'Andrea. It is the same organization. It was called that m its 
origin. At that time the membership was strictly for Italians who 
came from Sicily, but in the last, oh, I guess 28, the barriers were 
lifted and Italians from all regions of Italy are admitted now. In fact, 
there are entire lodges of foreigners, entire lodges of central Italians 
and southern, and so forth. It is not a Sicilian organization any more. 

Mr. Robinson. But it is entirely restricted to Italians? 

Mr. D'Andkea. Oh, yes. Italians and wives or husbands of Italian 

members. 

Mr. Robinson. What relation does that have with the Mafia organ- 
ization^ 

Mr. D'Andrea. Mafia? 

Mr. Robinson. Yes. 

Mr. D'Andrea. This is a legal reserve society. I know nothing 
about any Mafia in that organization. 

Mr. Robinson. Have you heard of it ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I have often heard of it, since I was a child. 

Mr. Robinson. Where were you born? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I was born in Buffalo, N. Y. 

Mr. Robinson. Did your parents come from Italy? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

JNIr. Robinson. What business was your father in ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Originally my father was a shoemaker, and when 
he came to Chicago he started a macaroni factory. 

Mr. Robinson. Was he in this Italian organization that you first 
referred to? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What was his position in that? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Nothing, just a member, just had a thousand 
dollars insurance. In fact, that is what I collected when he passed 

Mr. Robinson. Did you at one time run an Italian newspaper? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. When did you acquire that newspaper? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Either 1940 or 1941. I don't recall. It was just 
before the war, just before we declared war. 

Mr. Robinson. Was it in Chicago? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How large a circulation did it have? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I think we were registered at the post office for 
20,000. 

Mr. Robinson. Just how did you acquire it ? 

]SIr. D'Andrea. It was the only Italian daily in Chicago, and the 
owner, a gentleman by the name of Durante, was getting quite old 
and feeble and being connected with the society as I was, a man ap- 
proached me, a man by the name of Marina, and told me about the 
paper getting ready to' fold up. He thought it would be a good idea 
if a (rroiip of Itali'ans got together and kept it alive for the sake of 



352 ORGANIZEiD CRIAIEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

the colony, and so forth. So I was instrumental in gettino- 8 or 10 
peop e togetlier, and we put up a few tliousand dolhirs apiece and 
boiioht the paper. 

The Chairman. What is the name of the i)aper« 

Mr. D'Andrea. Dltalia. 

Mr. RoBiNsox. Did the paper have any connection with the insur- 
ance organization in any way ^ 

Mr. D 'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Robinson. You say you first lieard of the Mafia when you were 
quite young? -' 

Mr. D'xVndrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. What did you liear about it? 

Mr D'Andrea. The treacherous things tliey are in tlie habit of do- 
ing, the stories of poor men accumuhiting four or five thousand dol- 
lars ; buying a little home and having it blown up ; receiving letters and 
so forth. 1 hat IS one of those traditions that I guess tlie Italian chil- 
dren grow up to know those things and to learn them and to hear 
them. 

Mr. RcmiNSON. Would you say that is true of almost all Italian 
chddren, that they learn and hear of those thino-s ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes; I think so. It has b?en in the past, not so 
much now any more. 

Mr. Robinson. Did that organization carry over into this country, 
do you know ? -^ ' 

Mr. D'Andrea. I really don't know. I couldn't speak with any 
^"Il^^^'^y ^^^ ^^^^ matter because it is just hearsay, what I read 

Mr Robinson. Did you ever have any suspicion that it had carried 
over to this country ? 

^^^'- ^'^ndrea. I couldn't tell you. I wouldn't know what I was 
saying if 1 did say one way or the other. 

I know that at one time" there were supposed to be little grouiJs here 
and there that used to write so-called letters and what not, but I think 
m the last few years that has been done away with. 

Mr. Robinson. When you were active in politics— will you explain 
^"i'^'^l^f /''"'■ -activities were in connection with politics in Chicago? 

Mr D Andrea. Due to the fact that I had trucks working for the 
city It was my cluty to gather votes wherever I could. Being president 
of tiie society, I had many meetings, many organization meetings, at 
which I mvited the candidates to speak, financed those meetings, and so 
forth. The usual game of politics. 

Mr. Robinson. Would you collect contributions « 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, no. 

aJ^' ^*,^f^'^ON. You didn't collect any contributions at all? 

1 ■^f' M. .^""^t ^""^ ^''''™ ^^'^ organization at all; no. That is pro- 
nibited by the State. -^ 

W^' ^ff ^^o^- You never solicited any contributions? 
ii^*" i; ^^^^E^- No ; not from the organization. 
Mr. Robinson. Do you know Jack Draona« 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I have heard of hhn. I know who he is now. 
I have met him out there. « ii^w. 

Mr. Robinson. John Roselli ? 
Mr. D'Andrea. Yes; I know John Roselli. 
Mr. Robinson. What has been your contact with him? 



ORGANIZED CRIMEA IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



353 



Mr D'Andkea. John RoselU for the first time m my life I met in-I 
think it was 1941-on a trip I took to California, my hrst rip to Cali- 
forn a. with DeLiicia. At that time I met John Roselli there. 

Mr! Robinson. Have you ever had any business connections with 

^"ilr D'Andrea. That is the first time I had seen him. The next 
time I saw him was when we were arraigned m New 1 ork. 

Mr Robinson. What was your relationship with him m California 
Mr D' VxDREA. None whatsoever. That was the first time I had met 
him on tiiat tri]i. The next time I saw him was when we were ar- 

'Xr^^^Y^ say Mr. DeLucia made that trip with you? 
Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. How long have you known him? 
Mr. D'Andrea. About 25 years, I guess. . -.i i ;„. ? 

Mr. Robinson. Were you ever associated m business with him i 

Mr.' RoBmsoN^.' Werf you never associated with him in a gambling 

^' Mr^D'ANDREA. No, sir. I have never been in any sort of gambling 

^Tlr' Robinson. Were you ever arrested, Mr. D'Andrea, except for 

this extortion case? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. , . • .• -^i ^^i,^ 

Mr. Robinson. You were arrested, I take it, m connection with the 

Al Capone hearing. 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is right. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the nature of that arrest ? What was the 

cause for that arrest? . . ^ ^ p v u • 

^Ir D'Andrea. As I said in the beginning here, I was foolish in 
thinking that it was smart to be near the man The man asked nie 
to go to court with him one day, knowing that I was a deputy bailitt, 

and I did. i Tir* 

Mr. Robinson. W^ere you a deputy baililt f 

]\Ir. D'Andrea. I surely was. . ^^^ao 

Mr Robinson. How did you become a deputy bailitt ? 

Mr D'Andrea. I had a $40,000 bond up. That is one of my political 
iobs that I had. I was bailiff for about 5 years. 

Mr Robinson. Did vou accompany him as a bailiff or as a friend ? 

Mr D'Andrea. No, as a friend. xVnd my sentence Wcis o months not 
for carrying a revolver, but for contempt of court. The ]udge had 
issued an order not for anybody, police or anybody else, to enter the 
courtroom armed. I didn't know that. . ^ t • x- 

Mr. Robinson. Do you have any associates m bt. Louis or Kansas 

City? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr Robinson. You have no acquaintances there { 

Mr. D'Andrea. I have no friends or relatives or associates whatso- 
ever there. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Tony (jizzo '■ 

Mr. D'Andrea. I met him one time here m Chicago. He was at 
the Lexington Hotel. 

Mr. Robinson. When was that? 



354 ORGANIZEID CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, a long time ago, 1932 or 1933, something like 
that? 

]\Ir. Robinson. You never had any connection with him after that? 

IVIr. D'Andrea. I didn't know the man. 

Mr. Robinson. What was the occasion for the meeting ? Who was 
tliere when you met him? 

Mr. D'xVndrea. I don't recall now. I think he came to see Al, if I 
am not mistaken. I don't know what the occasion was. 

Mr. Rdbinson. You were there with Al Capone? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes; Al was there. 

INIr. Robinson. Do you remember what was discussed ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I wasn't in the room with them when they dis- 
cussed anj'thing. He had a suite of rooms there, and I happened to be 
up in the suite there, the reception room. I was tliere introduced to 
Gizzo. That is all I know of him. 

Mr. Robinson. You don't know what the purpose of the visit 
w'as? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No; I don't. I was never that close to find out 
what their business was. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know the Fischetti brothers? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Robinson. Wlien did you first meet them ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. About the same time, the same time I met Paul 
DeLucia, that is, Charlie. 

Mr. Robinson. Did you ever have any business with them? 

JNIr.. D'Andrea. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Robinson. You say you were in New York at one time? 

Mr. D'Andrea. The Dempsey-Sharkey fight, whenever that was. 
I don't recall. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you recall making a statement at the parole hear- 
ing, when you were asked "you live in New York, I believe," and you 
stated, "I have never been in New York." 

Mr. D'Andrea. I never said that. I have always said that I went 
to the Sharkey fight. 

The Chairman. Read the question and answer, Mr. Robinson. 

Mr. Robinson. The question was: "You lived in New York, I be- 
lieve." The answer was : "I have never been to New York." 

Would you say that is an inaccurate statement? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is a misprint or something. I wouldn't say 
that because I have been tliere. I have stated that before the con- 
gressional committee and I believe I stated that at my trial in New 
Yoi'k, that I was there with Skidmore and Al Ford. 

Mr. Robinson. What business are the Fischettis in, to the best of 
your knowledge ? 

jNIr. D'Andrea. Gambling. That is the one that I know well. The 
other two I am not so intimate with. I didn't know them very 
well. 

]Mr. Robinson. That is about all I want to ask. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, yes. I believe I got him to join our organi- 
zation. 

]\Ir. Halley. You mean the Italo- American Society ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, he had some insurance that I believe — ^I think 
he had some insurance there. 



ORGANIZEID CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE CX)MMER€E 355 

Mr. Halley. What business is Tony Accardo in? 
Mr. D'Andrea. Gambling is all I know of. 
Mv. Halley. Did you know Nitti ? 
Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Wliat business was he m? , u ^ 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, many businesses, I guess. I know he had a 
brewery. I know he had an interest in gamblmg. . ^ ^ ^ _.,. , 
Mr. Halley. Do you know Eddie O'Hare? Is it Kalph or Eddie? 
Mr. D'Andrea. Eddie O'Hare. , , ^ , -d v 

Mr H\LLEY The man who was murdered at Sportsmans I'arJr. 
Mr. D'Andrea. No. I knew who he was, but I had never met him. 
Mr. Halley. You didn't know him? 
Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr H\LLEY. Do YOU know John Fatton? 
Mr. D'Andrea. Yes ; I met Patton years ago. 
Mr. Halley. He was close to Capone? 
Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. . i a i r^ 9 

Mr H vlley. What was your relationship with Al Capone? 
Mr. D'Andrea. As I said before, it was purely silly. 1 thought it 
was smart being associated with the man. 
Mr H\LLEY. When did you first meet him? 

Mr D'ANDREA. Oh, I don't know, 1928 or 1929, something hke that. 
Mr! Halley. At that time he was quite well known and quite 
powerful ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. ^ ^1 ,. .• 7 

Mr. Halley. What were you doing at that time i 
Mr. D'Andrea. I had my trucks working. 
Mr. Halley. Working for the city ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. ^ j-j 5. 9 

Mr HALLEY. 'You needed his political support, didn t you i 
Mr D'Andrea. No. I had trucks working before I met him. 
Mr. Halley. But he was helpful in that way, wasn t he i 
Mr. D'Andrea. After I met him ; yes. 
Mr. Halley. It wasn't purely silly? 

Mr D'Andrea. It was silly for what I have suffered; yes. I here 
i<^ not enough money in the world to pay up for what I have suliered. 
Mr. Halley. But it did mean money, and it was a good business 
move, wasn't it, being close to Capone? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I didn't figure it that way at the time. I thought it 
was just smart to be identified with him. 

:Mr. Halley. How many trucks did you have i 
Mr D'Andrea. I had about 30 at one time. 
Mr. Halley. What was the name of your company i 
Mr. D'Andrea. United Cartage Co. 
Mr Halley. How many men worked for you i 
Mr. D'xVndrea. When the 30 trucks worked there were at least 
32 or 33 men working. . 

Mr. Halley. Did vou work only for the city ? . 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I was hauling material for paving and tor 

material for houses. 

Mr. Halley. They would be city contractors ^ 

Mr. D'Andrea. No; not that type of work. The city contract is 
for hauling garbage and ashes. 



356 ORGANIZEiD CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. I see. Who wore some of the other people wlio were 
closely associated with Capone duriiio^ the period you knew him well? 

Mr. D'Andrea. The names that appear in the ])aper. 

Mr. Halley. Well, w^onld you state them? We are trying to get 
some background, and you are a man who is now out of the apathy, 
you can talk dispassionately. We would like to know as much as 
Ave can about as many of them as possible. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Fellows like Nitti, Accardo, Campagna, DeLucia, 
all those people that are mentioned in the papers. That is the truth. 

Mr. Halley. Was Ralph Humphreys or Murray Humphreys one 
of them ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. He w\as friendly with Capone. 

Mr. Halley. What was his business? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. I had nothing to do with that propo- 
sition up there at all. Mine was strictly and purely, as I told you, 
that it w^as a smart thing to do to go up there and go out and let 
people think that I was close. 

Mr. Halley. But you were there quite frequently. 

Mr. D'Andrea. I wouldn't say frequently. Once or twice a week. 

Mr. Halley. Was Capone's headquarters at the Lexington? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. W^hat sort of arrangement did he have there? 

Mr. D'Andrea. He had a wdiole floor of rooms there. 

Mr. Halley. On what floor? 

Mr. D'Andrea. God, I don't remember. The third floor, I guess. 

Mr. Halley. Did he actually live there? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes; to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. Did his brothers live there? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Ralph Capone pretty w^ell? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And Matt? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Matt was just a kid those days. I didn't know 
him very w ell. 

Mr. Halley. John? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, John was around there, more so than the young 
fellow\ Matt I think was going to school at the time. 

Mr. Halley. Was it Gioe who was also around there? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Who? 

Mr. Halley. Cherry Nose Gioe. 

Mr. D'Andrea. No ; I don't remember him in those early days. It 
is just in recent years that he was around. 

Mr. Halley. What w-oiild you call recent years? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, from 11)35 on, '36, '37, something like that. 

Mr. Halley. What was his job with Capone i Did he start olf as a 
sort of armed escort ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You would have a fair idea. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Let's say he was a messenger boy. 

Mr. Halley. We are not talking about ancient history. Was he a 
messenger boy with a gun ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. 

]Mr. Halley. What did Capone use messenger boys for? We are 
trying to get the picture. 



ORGAXIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 357 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know, to send messages or to deliver messages 
to people. I don't know what their proposition was. As I say, I 
wasn't mixed up in it so I wouldn't know. I can imagine a lot ot 

thino-s. . 11^ 

Mr H\LLr.Y. I think you are trying to help, and you have to recog- 
nize that at this point it is very difficult to separate out the fiction from 
the truth. 

]Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You are a man who lived with it. 

Mr. D'Andrea. I realize that. 

Mr. Halley. We would like you to take your time and try to explain 
what these men did and how they fitted into the picture. 

Mr. D'Andrea. I am giving you the truth to the best of my knowl- 
edo-e in anythina- you ask me. I have nothing to fear or worry about. 

Sir. Halley. 1 am sure of that. What did Mr. Guzik do, for in- 
stance; what was his job? . 

Mr. D'Andrea. I couldn't tell you exactly what his job was, but lie 
was one of the so-called big shots there in and out. 

Mr. Halley. How could you, for instance, tell who were the big 
shots and who were the little shots? _ , . i 

Mr. D'Andrea. I knew those fellows looked up to him. That is the 
way I knew or assumed he was a big shot. 

I^Ir. Halley. Was DeLucia a big shot ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Xo, not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. What was his business in those days? 

Mr. D'Andrea. A restaurant. And then he was fooling around 
with the horses and what not. 

Mr. Halley. He gambled ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he handle liquor during prohibition? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't his restaurant a speakeasy during prohibition 
days ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Xo. When I first met him was at a restaurant on 
the West Side. I think there was a man by the name of Joe had that 
restaurant, the so-called Diamond Joe, of Chicago. He was working 
for him Avhen I first met him. 

]Mr. Halley. Who was he working for? 

Mr. D'Andrea. DeLucia was working for Ed Fosco. 

Mr. Halley. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. D'Axdrea. That was a good many years ago. I can't tell you 
exactly when that was. Quite a few years ago. 

Mr.'HALLEY. How did he rise to a position of wealth ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. 

Mr Halley. How well did you know Ricca ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I didn't know him too well for a long, long time. I 
had met him in that restaurant there. I knew he was working there. 
For a period of 8 or 10 years I didn't see him. Then I met him m 
Capone's place. _ , i g /^ 

Mr. Halley. When did you meet him at Capone s placed Lan you 
fix the date, roughly? 

Mr. D'Andrea. After a period of 7 or 8 years. It must have been 
in the early thirties, '31, '32, something like that. 

Mr. Halley. Was he quite active at the Lexington ? 



358 ORGAlSriZEID CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE (X)'MMEHCE 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, he wasn't. In fact, he was very quiet, very quiet 
at that time. 

Mr. Halley. Did you see much of him between then and say 1942? 

jNlr. D'Andrea. Not until about 1937 or 19r;8. He bought a place 
out in the country, and it was on the way to my home out in the coun- 
try. I used to stop there occasionally. 

J\lr. Hallet. Where was it in the country ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. He was in Indiana, Long Beach, Ind., and my place 
was at St. Joe, Mich., about 40 miles farther. On my way out occa- 
sionally I would stop there, and a lot of times stop there and play 
cards and one thing and another. 

Mr. Halley. That was a very elaborate farm he had, wasn't it? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, that was no farm. 

Mr. Halley. I mean a very elaborate home. 

Mr. D'Andrea. He had a swimming pool there and what not. I 
would call that elaborate. 

Mr. Halley. What business did you understand he had that would 
develop that kind of wealth ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. He had a restaurant downtown here for a few years. 
He had the Vesuvia Restaurant. 

Mr. Halijly. Was there gambling in the restaurant? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. Did he have any other business to your knowledge? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, I heard that he had an interest in a theater over 
here on Michigan Avenue, the Play House, I believe it was. 

Mr. Halley. What was Capone's business ? How did he make his 
money during the thirties? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Prohibition, wasn't it? 

Mr. Halley. After 1933 how did he make it ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley, You knew him. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, but the fact that I would know a person, I 
wouldn't know what he was doing or how he made money. 

Mr. Halley. Prior to 1932 you would say it was prohibition; is 
tliat right? 

Mr. D'Andri:a. Yes, I would believe that is what it was. I am 
almost sure it was prohibition. 

Mr. Halley. You became quite friendly with him starting in 1928? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Something like that. As to the exact date, I just 
don't recall now. It was around that time. 

Mr. Halley. When was it he went to jail, around 1938? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, no. 

Mr. Halley. '36? 

Mr. D'Andrea. He went to jail when I had that trouble with the 
gun. That was in 1933. 

Mr. Halley. That was in 1933. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What happened to the Lexington headquarters after 
he went to jail? Were they continuing? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I was in there, too ; you know, in jail. I don't know. 
When I came out I separated from everything and everybody. 

Mr. Halley. What did you do when you came out ? JDid you con- 
tinue your business? 



0'RGA]SriZEID CRIME EST mfTERSTATE OOiMMERCE 359 

- Mr. D'Andrea. I continued my business. The following year I 
think I was elected president of the society. 

Mr. Halley. You couldn't have been separated from too many 
tilings. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Pardon? 

Mr. Halley. You were active, then, in that field. 

Mr. D'Andrea. i)\\, yes. I mean I separated from any comiection 
going to the Lexington Hotel because once he went away I had no 
interest there any more. 

Mr. Halley. Did you continue in politics? 

Mr. D'Andrea. A little, yes, 

Mr. Halley. How did they control the political organization in 
Chicago prior to 1932 during the prohibition days ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. What do you mean how did they control it ? 

Mr. Halley. They pretty much had their way about police and 
political matters, didn't they? 

Mr. D'Andrea. The politicians, you mean, had their way. 

Mr. Halley. No, Capone. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Well, the talk was that he was able to do almost 
anything he wanted to do. How he did it, I don't know. 

^Ir. Halley. You spent a lot of time at the Lexington Hotel. 
Didn't he ever talk about it ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I wouldn't say I spent a lot of time there. The 
times that I was there they didn't talk business in front of me. I 
was not one of their partners or anything of the sort. 

Mr. Halley. What ward conmiitteeman did you e^'er see at the 
Lexington Hotel ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I have seen Dan Serritella. I saw Alderman Pu- 
celli there. I saw Committeeman Pregnano there. That is all, I 
guess. 

Mr. Halley. Were they men whom 3'ou would consider indebted to 
Capone for political or other support? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I believe they got some assistance from him, yes. 

Mr. Halley. What kind of assistance ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Financial. 

Mr. Halley. Did he use his people to help out on election day ? 

Mr. D'Andrea, Oh, yes. 

Mr, Halley. In the handling of the polls ? 

Mr. D'Andrea, Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who was in charge of that type of work for Capone ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't really know. Anybody wdio would come 
along, I imagine. There was nobody in particular in charge of that, 
not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to Florida? 

Mr. D'Andrea, Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When did you spend some time in Florida? 

Mr. D'Andrea, When I went to Nassau. 

Mr, Halley. What year ? 

Mr. D'Andrea, I am a little confused now. I don't remember the 
year. It is in the record wdien I went. 

Mr. Halley. Would that be before or after 1940? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, before ; much before. 

Mr. Halley. Before 1936 ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 



360 ORGAlSriZElD CRIME IN INrTERSTATE COMMERCE 

]\Ir. Ham.ey. "Was it after you served your prison term in connec- 
tion with Capone? 

Mr. D'Andkea. No; it was before that. 

Mr. Halley. Before 1933? 

Mv. D 'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Haleey. Where did you go, to Miami Beach ? 

Mr. D 'Andrea. That is right. 

JMr. Halley. At that time did Capone have a home on Miami 
Beach? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have a liome there ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you rent a home ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I did one year, in 1940. 

Mr. Halley. In 1940 ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. At Miami Beach? 

JMr. D'Andrea. No. I don't know — it is away out on Cottage Ave- 
nue, 10 or 15 miles from where Capone had his home. 

Mr. Halley. While you were in Miami did you visit with Fischetti? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I believe I did see them, there. 

Mr. Halley. In 1940? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I think so. When I was there I think I saw 
Fischetti there. 

Mr. Halley. You have been in the Fischetti home there? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No; I have never been in his home. I don't think 
he had a home there ; did he ? I don't I'ecall his having a home. 

Mv. Halley. Were you in the Accardo home there ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. Accardo had no home there then. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever on Accardo's yacht in Florida ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. Accardo had no yacht when I was there in 
Florida. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Harry Russell ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. Or Ralph Pierce? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I knew Ralph Pierce. Ralph Pierce was tried 
with us. 

Mr. Halley. He was tried with you. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he also frequent the hotel and Capone ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Was he one of what you would call the Capone crowd ; 
is that right? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Russell was not? 

JMr. D'Andrea. I don't know Russell. 

Mr. Halley. Are you familiar with the retail clerks union that 
had its offices in the same building that Russell's Silver Bar was? 

JMr. D'xVndrea. I didn't know anything about that at all. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in that building at 400 South State 
Street? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. You were never in the building at all? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, sir. 



ORGAXIZEID CRIME IX INiTERSTATT: COMMERCE 361 

Mr. Halley. Where did you see Pierce? . ^^ ^^ , 

Mr. D'Andrea. The last time I saw him was m ^ew 1 ork. 

Mr. Halley. At the trial ? 

Mr. D'Anduea. At thetrial; yes. 

Mr HvLLEY. You have uieutioued Gizzo from Kausas City at tlie 
Lexiucrtou Hotel. I wonder what people from other cities you might 
have .?een at the Lexington Hotel during the days you were there. 
That would be between 192S and 1933. 

Mr D'Anduea. I can't recall anybody in particular. 

Mr. Halley. I think you mentioned that you had never seen Frank 
Costello. 

Mr. D'Andfea. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ^ 

Mr. D'Andkea. No. 

Mr. Halley. Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 1 have heard their names. I know they are aii 
from NeAV York, but I have never met them. 

Mr. Halley. Vito Genovese^ 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

]Mr. Halley. Joe Massei ? 

jMr. D'Andrea. I have heard his name, too. 

Jklr. Halley. Did you ever meet him in Florida ? . i • i , 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, no. Wlien I was down there I don t think he 
was down there. 

Mr. Halley. He was not in Florida at that time i , • • . 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't think so because I would have met him it 
he were because the fellows all usually come over to Al's home. 

ISIr. Halle. What fellows would come to Al's home'^ 

j\[r D'Andrea. Anybody who came to Florida. 

INIr. Halley. By anybody you mean anybody who is m the rackets f 

Mr. D'Andrea. I presume that is what it was. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the Boulevard Hotel m Florida i 

Mv. D'Andrea. Boulevard Hotel? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Not to my knowledge. 

jSIr. Halley. Or the Waiford Hotel? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. Or the Sands Hotel ? 

]Slr. D'Andrea. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. What happened to the Capone gang after Capone went 

to jail? , . T 1 u 1 

Mr. D'Andrea. I guess they all went on their own. i don t know. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't the leadership pass on to other hands? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know, because, as I told you, I just stayed 
away from that hotel, and I don't know what was going on there. 

Mr. Halley. Prior to 1933 were the Fischetti boys around the Lex- 
ington Hotel? 

IMr. D'Andrea. Prior to 1933? 

i\Ir. Halley. Yes. t v i v 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. Charlie was. As I say, the other two 1 didn t 

know very well. ■ . . , ■ ^^ i » 

Mr. Halley. Was he in the liquor business with Al m tliose tlays i 
Mr. D'Andrea. I believe he was. 

68958—51 — pt. 5 24 



362 ORGAlSriZElD CRIMEi IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

JNIr. Halley. I guess everybody was in the business who hung 
around. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. 

Mr. 1 1 ALLEY. Did you use your trucks for it? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oli, God, no. 

Mr. Halley. You weren't in it at all ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Mine were all dump trucks. You couldn't use them 
for that type of work. 

Mr. Halley. I see. You say Fischetti's business since then became 
gambling; is that right? 

Mr. D'Andrea. According to the talk you hear around town, the 
newspapers. 

Mr. Halley. Well, at least up to, say, 1941, you would have access 
to fairly well-informed talk, wouldn't you ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. He was interested in gambling. There is no 
question about it. I don't think that can be denied. 

Mr. Halley. Did Accardo hang around the Lexington Hotel in the 
liquor business before 1933? Was he also in the liquor business? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't think he was around there in those days, 
before 1933. I don't remember him. 

Mr. Halley. You don't remember Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Not then, I mean, before 1933, being around the 
Lexington Hotel. 

Mr. Halley. Where do you remember him from? 

Mr. D'Andrea. After that, after 1933. 

Mr. Halley. Being where, around the Lexington ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No; not around the Lexington, but being around 
with fellows sometimes like Guzik and Paul DeLucia. When I made 
a campaign to get members in I solicited those people. 

Mr. Halley. Did they pretty well associate together, Guzik and 
DeLucia and Accardo? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did Humphreys continue to associate with them? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. What business did they go into after prohibition? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I understood they were in the gambling business. 

Mr. Halley. The whole bunch of them? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where did they get their protection ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You were active in politics. 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes; but that is something I didn't interfere with 
and didn't know. It was none of my business. 

Mr. Halley. Did they continue to help out on election day the way 
Al used to ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I broke my connections there entirely after 
Al left. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't give up your political work, did ^^ou? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I didn't depend on them for it. 

Mr. Halley. No; but you know the score. 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is right. I did the best I could witliout them. 

Mr. Halley. I am sure of that, but we are trying to get the story 
now. 



O'RGANIZEID CRIMEi IN ENTERSTATE COM]VIER€E 363 

Mr. D'Andrea. I realize that. In otlier words, when Al left 1 was 
out in the cold as far as any connections there because I had no friends 

there. , . , ,, 

Mr. H ALLEY. But you knew what was .ffomg on and you were the 

head of the Italo- American organization and were active in politics. 
Mr. D'Andrea. But that and the Lexington Hotel are two difterent 

things. , . ..,^1^,1 

]\lr. Halley. I am not even beginning to insinuate that they aren t. 
What I mean is that you were a wide-awake, bright young man and 
you knew the score. 

Mr. D'Andrea. I knew the things that were going on. 

Mr. Halley. How did these fellows organize things ? 

Mr. DAndrea. I don"t know. If I had known, I probably would 
have gotten in with them. 

Mr. Halley. Thev niust have had political pull. 

Mr. D'Andrea. I 'assume they had, but how or when or anything 
I couldn't tell you. . 

:^Ir. Halley. Who kept the police from busting up their gambling 

games!; ^ .^ 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know that. That is hard to say. I was not 

active in that. <? • j j- 

Mr. Halley. In those days the police would be more afraid ot 
Fischetti than they would be of their superiors, wouldn't they? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. 

Mr. Halley. In any event they all went into the gambling business, 
is that right? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is my understanding, yes. 

Mr. Halley. AVhat do you know about the v;ire service? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Not a thing. I wouldn't know where to go and put 
a $2 bet on a horse. Believe me when I say that because I have never 
been identified with anything like that. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know James Ragen? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't know him at all ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Pat Burns ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. You have absolutely no information regarding the 
wire service ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know a thing about it, not one blessed thing 
about the w^ire service. 

Mr. Halley. How many of the people we have been talking about 
were you able to persuade to join your association? You mentioned, 
I think, Fischetti, is that right? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Accardo, Fischetti, Charlie Fischetti; Paul De- 
Lucia and his family, his father-in-law ; John Capone, Nick Circella. 
Those were the only few that I was able ever to get. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Hugo Bennett? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Who? 

Mr. Halley. Hugo Bennett. 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. Benvenuti ? Perhaps you knew him. 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know his father ? 



364 ORGAXIZEiD CRIME IN INITERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. Benvenuti ? Could that be the mtin who was a 
bondsman around town here, Julius Benvenuti? 

Mr. Halley. No, Hugo. He w^orked out at Sportman's Park. 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, I don't know him. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't go to the races at all? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't think I have been to the track three or four 
times in my life. 

JNIr. Hally. Was John Patton one of the Capone group ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did he hang out at the Lexington ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. He did in the early years. I saw him there quite 
often. 

Mr. Halley. He was also called the boy mayor of Burnham, is 
that right? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Was the Capone crowd quite active out there ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I imagine they were. I couldn't say for sure. I 
imagine they were. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know William H. Johnston, Pat Burns^ 
father ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Ed O'Hare ? I think I asked you that. 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is the man. 

Mr. Halley. The man who was killed? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No ; I didn't know him. 

Mr. Halley. I have no other questions. 

The Chairman. Mr. D'Andrea, I want to get one or two things. 
When Avas it you bought the newspaper? 

Mr. D'Andrea. It was about a year or a year and a half before we 
declared war. 

The Chairman. About 1937 or 1938? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, no. It was in 1941. 

The Chairman. About 1939? 

Mr. D'Andrea. 1939 or 1940. I had all my files here. 

The Chairman. You kept the newspaper? 

Mr. D'Andrea. About a year or so. 

The Chairman. Then what date was it that vou were incarcerated'^ 

Mr. D'Andrea. December of 1943. 

The Chairman. When did you get out? 

Mr. D'Andrea. August 1947. 

The Chairman. Then you went to California immediately? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. I was in Lincolnshire close to a year, I guess. 

The Chairman. When did you quit politics? 

]Mr. D'Andrea. About a year before I got in trouble. The city 
bought all their own equipment at that time and it absolutely put me 
out of business insofar as city work was concerned. 

The Chairman. So you quit politics back about 1941 or 1942? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is right. 

The Chairman. Who was tlie mayor in those days in 1928 and 1929 
and 1930? AVas that Big Bill Thompson? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes; Tlionq)S()n was mayor awhile. 

The Chairman. Did the Capone group support him? 

IVIr. D'Andrea. No; they went against him. They went against him 
and Cermak Avas elected at the time. 



ORGAXIZEID CRIME^ IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 365 

The Chairmax. They supported Cermak. 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is riglit. 

The Chairman. Were the Capone group all Democrats? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

The Chairman. What was Al Capone? 

jNIr. D'Andrea. He was a Republican when it fitted his clothes, I 
guess, and a Democrat otherwise. 

The Chairman. You mean the whole group played both sides of 
the street ? 

JNIr. D'Andrea. That is right. 

The Chairman. When they thought that they needed protection, 
whoever was in, that is where they 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is right. They had all been for Thompson, 
and then at the last minute they switched over to Cermak. 

The Chairman. Was Cermak a Democrat or a Republican? 

Mr. D'Andrea. He was a Democrat. 

The Chairman. Was Thompson a Republican? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Thompson was a Republican. 

The Chairman. But you were a Democrat all the way through ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. Is that bad or good ? 

The Chairman. I think it is good. 

Let me ask this about the Italo-American Union : You assessed the 
members to pay benefits when somebody died ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That was true. 

The Chairman. That is the way it was originally, was it? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. During that time did you have meetings and have 
any other purpose for the union? That is, did you have fraternal 
meetings to discuss problems that you had ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, yes. It was a lodge system. Every locality 
has its lodge. 

The Chairman. A secret organization? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Oh, God no. It was men, women, and children who 
belonged to it. 

The Chairman. Did you have to be initiated or take any oath to 
get in ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. It was purely an insurance proposition. 

The Chairman. Just pay some money. 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is right. 

The Chairman. But you would have social meetings every so often 
to get acquainted ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, the various lodges also had their little dance 
or their little picnic or what not. 

The Chairman. When did this fraternal society comply with the 
laws of Illinois relative to reserves and what not? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I think the code went into effect in 1934. 

The Chairman. Were you the president then ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, I came in shortly after the code went in and I 
rerated the entire membership. 

The Chairman. When was that? 

Mr. D'Andrea. About 1934, '35, '36. It took us a couple of years 
to do it. 

The Chairman. Then you were president for 6 years ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is about right. 



366 ORGAlSriZEiD CRIMEi IN ES'lTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. I notice in your bank checks you have a three- 
hundred-odd-clollar check to the Italo- American Union, 

Mr. D'Andrea. That is my premium for last year's insurance. 

The Chairman. Do you still pay your premium to the lodge here? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, I always pay to the main office in Chicago. 

The Chairman. There are offices in California and all over the 
country ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. At the time that I was president we operated in 
difi'erent States, operated in Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and 
Wisconsin. I don't know what the situation is today. 

The Chairman. Who is the president now ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Bulger; Imburgio Bulger. 

The Chairman. Has it gotten to be a big organization ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I understand the membership has increased to about 
ten or twelve thousand, so I understand. I am not positive, though. 
That is the talk around. 

The Chairman. Mr. D'Andrea, who arranged to get this lawyer 
down in Texas to represent you all in the parole matter? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I know nothing about that. 

The Chairman. He got you out, did he not ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't give him any credit for getting me out. I 
had my own attorney. 

The Chairman. Who was your attorney? 

Mr. D'Andrea. M}^ attorjiey was — I can't think of his name, from 
North Dakota. Fargo, N. Dak. It will come to me in a second. 

The Chairman. Anyway, how did you get an attorney way out in 
Fargo ? 

Mr, D'Andrea. Well, I got him through a cousin of mine here who 
is an attorney, but not familiar with criminal work. He suggested him 
as a good man vvho knew his way around. That is all I know. I was 
inside. I had no part of it, only when this cousin of mine came to see 
me, I told him I would like to see if he could try and get a sick parole 
for me. He said he would look into it ; and the next time he came and 
saw me he told me he inquired and found out that this man from 
Dakota was a man who knew his way around Washington. I hired 
him. That is all. 

The Chairman, How much did you pay him ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I gave him $7,500. 

The Chairman. Did you get out when the others did ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes. I believe they turned my medical parole 
down, and we all got off together. 

The Chairman. You think you all got out automatically, or do you 
think anybody did anything for you? 

]Mr. D'Andrea. I don't think anybody did anything for us. We 
were entitled to it. We had done one-third of our time, and had good 
behavior. 

The Chairman. Is that what you got ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, one-third of our time. We w^ere eligible for 
parole. None of us had bad behavior there. That is what the parole 
law is, I guess. 

The Chairiman. Do you know about some people coming in and 
leavinor money in Mr. Bernstein's office to pay off DeLucia and Cam- 
pagna's income-tax liability? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I have read about it; yes. 



ORGAlSriZEiD CRIMEi I^' EXTERSTATE COMMERCE 367 

The Chairman. How do you suppose that happened? You are a 
very intelligent man. 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know, sir. Perhaps it sounds as fishy to 
me as it does to you. I don't know a thing about it. 

The Chairman. You have had considerable education, have you not, 
Mr. D'Andrea? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Somewhat. 

The Chairman. You have gone to college? 

]\Ir. D'Andrea. Yes, sir. 1 had 21/2 years of law school. 

The Chairman. Where? 

Mr, D'Andrea. Hamilton College of Law here in Chicago. 

The Chairman. Did 3'ou go to college before you went to law school ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. 

The Chairman. Are you a lawyer? 

Mr. D'xVndrea. No. 

The Chairman. I do not think of anything else to ask him. 

Mr. White. Who were your partners in the newspaper enterprise ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. At that time, they were John Arena, he was the 
editor; Peter Fosco, William Parrillo, Dr. Eugene Chesrow, J. V. 
Lamantia, Rev. Horace D'Andrea, an uncle of mine. I believe that 
is all. 

JSIr. Halley. Did any sell out? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I had some difficulty with this editor, and he let 
the paper run down. The}^ automatically withdrew. I salvaged 
about $1,200 out of it. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you continue after Arena withdrew? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Yes, for a while, but it was too expensive. I knew 
nothing about the newspaper business, and at that time I decided, on 
account of m}^ health, to let go the position I had with the Italo- 
American. I didn't think I needed the newspaper any more. So I 
just closed it up. I salvaged about $1,200 out of the entire thing 
that we paid close to $25,000 for. 

Mr. Halley. Did Arena withdraw at your insistence ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. Arena got himself in trouble, financial trouble 
there, and what not. His idea was to get everybody disgusted and he 
would take over the paper himself. There was a lawsuit there, and 
so forth. He got out. 

Mr. Halley. Did he want to get out, or did others want to get him 
out? 

jMr. D'Andrea. The rest of the partners wouldn't give any more 
working capital as long as he was there, because they had put up twice, 
they put up $5,000 each time as working capital, and it just dwindled 
away. 

Mr. Halley. Then you succeeded him as editor? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, I was never the editor. I financed the thing for 
a few months, myself, and I found out it was a little too tough for me. 
I let it go. 

Then the war broke out and the Italian newspapers were no good, 
anyway. Foreign newspapers were on the down grade. 

Mr. Halley. How did you know Pete Fosco ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I have known Pete Fosco a good many years. 

Mr. Halley. Was he another one of the Capone group? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, no. I have a cousin wdio is in the labor game. 
He is the president of the hod carriers union. Pete and he are in the 
same business. They are sort of friends of the family for years. 



368 ORGAlSriZEiD CRIMEi IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. I have no more questions. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know Eddie Vogel ? 

Mr. D'Andkea. I have heard of him. I don't know him. 

]Mr. R0P.INS0N. Do you know whether he was part of the Capone 
or<i;anization ? 

Mr. D'Andkea. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. You mentioned Mr. Gioe was sort of a messenger? 

Mr. D'Andrea. At tliat time, at the beginning, tliat is all he was. 

Mr. Robinson. Did any other members of this group that was asso- 
ciated with Capone have similar functions or other functions to per- 
form? What I am getting at, you referred to Gioe as a messenger. 

Mr. D'Andrea. I believe all those fellows who were actually identi- 
fied started out the same way. 

Mr. Robinson. Didn't they have some particular function or job 
they did as part of the organization ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I wouldn't know that, because my business was 
purely and simply short visits. I didn't know what they were doing 
and what was going on. 

Mr. Robinson. You were closely associated with Al Capone, were 
you not ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I w^ouldn't say closely associated. I knew him very 
well, and we were very friendly. I think he would do anything in the 
world for me. But as far as knowing what his business was or inter- 
fering with his business, I never took it upon myself 

INIr. Robinson. You know he had an organization that he ruled 
pretty firmly, didn't he? 

Mr. D'Andrea. Of course. 

Mr. Robinson. The people you referred to, you know were members 
of his organization. Did he have his organization broken down into 
certain compartments? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. What did JVIurray Humphreys do ? 

Mr. D'xVndrea. I couldn't tell you. I don't know, I don't know 
what his duties were, if he had any. 

INIr. Robinson. Do you know what Fischetti's duties were ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. As I say, I always knew them to be either in the 
bootlegging business or gambling. What particular line, what par- 
ticular tasks they had, I don't know. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know whether Humphreys was affiliated with 
the activities that related to unions ? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I don't know. I knew he was in the laundry busi- 
ness there, cleaners and dyers, or something. 

Mr. Robinson. Do you know how he got into that ? 

IMr. D'Andrea. No* I don't. 

Mr. Robinson. Were there pretty close relationships between the 
officers of this Italian organization in this city, and officials of similar 
organizations in other cities? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No. This is the only office we have here. They 
operate under the lodge system there. They send their dues to this 
office. The only thing they do there without the sanction of this office 
is the social activities, such as their dances and picnics and what not. 
Everything is controlled from this office. 

Mr. Robinson. No connection with organizations in those cities? 

Mr. D'Andrea. No, no. 



ORGAXIZEID CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 369 

Mr EoBiNSON. After 1933, did you ever, in any of your discussions 
or talks with Capone, notice any indication on liis part ot being inter- 
ested in the wire service business? 

Mr. D'Andrea. I never saw him any more. 

Mr. KoBixsoN. You dichrt see him after that? 

Mr. D'AxDREA. Oh, no. , • n • ^9 

:Mr RoBixsox. You say vou were born m this country « 

Mr. D'AxDREA. Buffalo, N. Y. 

Mr. Rop.ixsox. You do know about the Maha| 

Mr D'AxDREA. Oh, I have heard of it since I was a child. 

Mr RoBixsox. Would you say it would be unusual for any man ot 
your age who was born in Sicily, to say he knew nothing about the 

Mafia *' 

Mr D'AxDRE\ Yes, I would think so. If he was born in Sicily, 
I would think so. Because, as I say, years ago it was a byword m 
every family. People were scared to death of having a little home 
for fear somebody would come over and blow it up or for fear they 
would receive a letter. That was the condition here about 20 years 

ago that I recall. -> .1 ^1 . 

Mr RoBixsox. What would vou say were some of the other concepts 
or principles of the Mafia that you recall from your childhood, hav- 
ing heard talked about in the family ? 

Mr. D'AxDREA. One of the concepts was that it would be a good idea 
to keep your mouth closed ? 

Mr. RoBixsox. Any others? 

Mr D'AxDREA. Anything that would hurt the other fellow, 1 guess. 

Mr' RoBixsox. Was one of the concepts to settle your own sqiiabbles 
among yourselves, and never seek the help of law-enforcement ofhcers i 
Isn't tliat historically true of the Mafia? , , -^ 

Mr D'