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Full text of "Investigation of organized crime in interstate commerce. Hearings before a Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, United States Senate, Eighty-first Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 202 .."

INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

ORGANIZED CEIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGKESS 

FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 202 

(81st Congress) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION 

OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



PART 6 



OHIO-KENTUCKY 



JANUARY 17, 18, AND 19, AND FEBRUARY 19, 1951 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 






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INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE A 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

ORGANIZED CKIME IN INTERSTATE COMMEECE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 202 

(81st Congress) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION 

OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



PART 6 



OHIO-KENTUCKY 



JANUARY 17, 18, AND 19, AND FEBRUARY 19, 1951 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 




UNITED STATES 

GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 

WASHINGTON : 1951 






SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME IN 

INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

ESTBS KEFAUVER, Tennessee, Chairman 

HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland CHARLES W. TOBEY, New Hampshire 

LESTER C. HUNT, Wyoming ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin 

Rudolph Hali-bv, Chief Counsel 

II 



CONTENTS 



Testimony of— Pasfe 

Allen, Edward J., chief of police, Youngstown, Ohio 229-243 

Ault, Floyd E., officer in charge, United States Immigration and 
Naturalization Service, Cleveland, Ohio, and Edwin B. Topmiller, 

assistant officer in charge 397-401 

Burke, Peter A., sheriff, Lawrence County, Ohio 220-229 

Burke, Hon. Thomas A., mayor, city of Cleveland, Ohio 13-14 

DiCarlo, Joseph, alias DeCarlo, Youngstown, Ohio, accompanied by 

Russell Mock, attorney, Youngstown, Ohio 316-337 

Eldridge, Gerald, Toledo", Ohio 385-389 

Fretti, Joseph, Toledo, Ohio 389-397 

Giesey, Alvin E., accountant, accompanied by Timothy McMahon, 

attorney, Cleveland, Ohio 19-28, 118-175 

Gugel, George, chief of police, Newport, Ky., accompanied by Charles 

E. Lester, attorney, Newport, Ky 373-385 

Hennessy, Charles L., formerly sheriff of Lucas County, Ohio 256-263 

Lausche, Hon. Frank J., Governor, State of Ohio 3-13 

Licavoli, James, Cleveland, Ohio, accompanied by D. J. LaPolla, 

attorney, Warren, Ohio 337-355 

Marmorstein, Max, Cleveland, Ohio 355-367 

McBride, Arthur B., Cleveland, Ohio, accompanied by Walter 

Gallagher and William Dempsey, attorneys, Washington, D. C 14-18, 

28-32, 43-110 
McGinty, Thomas J., Cleveland, Ohio, accompanied by Richard J. 

Moriarity, attorney, Cleveland, Ohio 181-208 

Milano, Anthony, Cleveland, Ohio, accompanied by Joseph W. 

Kennedy, attorney, Cleveland, Ohio 401-415 

Moriarity, Richard J., attorney, Cleveland, Ohio 176-181 

Polizzi, Alfred, Coral Gables, Fla., accompanied bv Parker Fulton, 

attorney, Cleveland, Ohio 111-116, 264-314, 419-451 

Rhoads, Malcolm Reet, city manager, Newport, Ky 367-373, 385 

Rutkowski, Anthony A., chief, enforcement division, Ohio Department 

of Liquor Control, accompanied by Joseph Harrell, supervisor. _ 210-220, 

415-416 

Sutton, Alvin G., director of public safety, Cleveland, Ohio 32-43 

Timiney, George B., sheriff, Lucas County, Ohio 244-256 

Schedule and summary of exhibits 111 

Wednesday, January 17, 1951 1 

Thursday," January 18, 1951 117 

Friday, January 19, 1951 315 

Monday, February 19, 1951 419 

Appendix 453 

Supplemental data 479 

SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS 



Number and summary of exhibits 



1. Graphs showing operations of the Jungle Inn, Pettibone, and 

Mounds Clubs in Ohio, submitted by Gov. Frank J. Lausche- 

2. Canceled personal checks of Alvin E. Giesey for 1947 

3. Canceled personal checks of Alvin E. Giesey for 1948 

4. Canceled personal checks of Alvin E. Giesey for 1949 

5. Canceled personal checks of Alvin E. Giesey for 1950 

6. Warranty deed to a piece of property in Euclid, Ohio, grantors 

being Justine Bartholomew and Leo C. Bartholomew, and 
grantees, Alvin E. Giesey and E. K. Swan 

7. Warranty deed from Ethel E. Knapp to Alvin E. Giesey, 

covering property on Sloane Street in Lakewood, Ohio 

See footnotes at end of table. 



Intro' 

duced on 

page— 



7 
20 
21 
21 
21 



21 
21 



Appears 

on 
page— 



( 2 ) 

0) 
C 1 ) 
0) 
(') 



(•) 

0) 



IV 



CONTENTS 
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS— Continued 



Number and summary of exhibits 



Intro- 
duced on 
page- 



8. Tax receipt of Alvin E. Giesey for first half of 1948, showing 

property consisting of a lot on East One Hundred and 
Forty-second Street 

9. Tax receipt of Alvin E. Giesey, for first half of 1948, covering 

Sloane Avenue property, showing a valuation of $2,940 

10. Tax receipt of Alvin E. Giesey for second half of 1949, showing 

valuation of $2,140 on Wickliff e property 

11. Certificate of 33% shares stock, Trailer Homes, Inc., $250, 

total capital stock, submitted by Alvin E. Giesey 

12. Fifty stock certificates (each one for one hundred shares) of 

United Aircraft Products Co., submitted by Alvin E. 
Giesey 

13. List of partial holdings of Alvin E. Giesey 

14. Income-tax return of Alvin E. and Gladys K. Giesey for 1940. 

15. Income-tax return of Alvin E. and Gladys K. Giesey for 1941. 

16. Income-tax return of Alvin E. and Gladys K. Giesey for 1942. 

17. Income-tax return of Alvin E. Giesey for 1943 

18. Income-tax return of Maj. Alvin E. Giesey for 1944 

19. Income-tax return of Alvin E. Giesey for 1945 

20. Income-tax return of Alvin E. and Gladys K. Giesey for 1946. 

21. Income-tax return of Alvin E. Giesey for 1947 

22. Income-tax return of Alvin E. and Gladys K. Giesey for 1948.. 

23. Income-tax return of Alvin E. and Gladys K. Giesey for 1949_. 

24. Record of personal receipts and checks of Alvin E. Giesey 

from January 1947 through 1950 

25. Additional records given to Mr. Nellis of the committee by 

Alvin E. Giesey 

26. Records of real-estate transactions of Alfred Polizzi and 

Arthur B. McBride 

27. Records and agreements of Continental Press Service and 

Arthur B. McBride 

28. Records of financial transactions of John Fleming and Arthur 

B. McBride 

29. Cleveland (Ohio) Police Department record of John Anger- 

sola, alias John King 

30. Cleveland (Ohio) Police Department record of George J. 

Angersola, alias George King 

31. Cleveland record of Louis Rothkopf, alias Lou Rhody 

32. Record of Morris Kleinman, Cleveland, Ohio 

33. Criminal record of Samuel A. Tucker 

34. Copies, certified from deed book, with respect to Arthur B. 

McBride and Alfred Polizzi transactions re University 
Estates 

35. Criminal record of Tony Milano 

36. Records of purchase and sale of 40-foot yacht, Wood Duck, 

submitted by Arthur B. McBride 

37. Wire chart showing the services of Continental Press to an 

Ohio distributor 

38. Photograph of Arthur B. McBride and wife, Judge Giblon, and 

Alfred Polizzi 

39. Group of property deeds of Alfred Polizzi 

40. "Undocumented number" on the yacht Wood Duck, owned by 

Alfred Polizzi 

41. An agreement covering property listed between Marmon 

Realty Co. and Alfred Polizzi 

42. Document dated September 26, 1946, submitted by Alfred 

Polizzi 

43. Partnership agreement for the Sands Hotel, dated August 15, 

1946 

44. Closing statements on real estate, submitted by Alfred Polizzi 

See footnotes at end of table. 



21 
21 
21 
22 

22 
23 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 

25 

26 
28 
30 
30 

42 

42 
42 
42 
42 

59 
63 

65 

72 

72 
113 

114 

114 

114 

114 
114 



CONTENTS 
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS— Continued 



Number and summary of exhibits 



Intro- 
duced on 

]>:i>jr 



Appears 

on 
page— 



45. Statements relative to property of Alfred Polizzi in Cleveland, 

Ohio, and closing statement of sale thereof 

46. Closing statement on sale of home bv Alfred Polizzi 

47. Closing statements and cost of lots covering University 

Estates, submitted by Alfred Polizzi 

48. Statement covering another home sold by Alfred Polizzi in 

Cleveland, Ohio 

49. Tax returns of Alfred Polizzi 

50. Letter from Alvin E. Giesey, dated April 19, 1949, to Samuel 

Schraeder 

51. Cleveland Police Department record of Morris "Mushy" 

Wexler 

52. Affidavit from Leon Schiff, M. D., re physical condition of 

Samuel Schraeder 

53. Letter of January 17, 1951, from Dr. John R. McKay, Warren, 

Ohio, re physical condition of Sheriff Ralph Milliken, of 
Warren, Ohio 

54. Photograph of two buildings comprising the Jungle Inn, 

identified by Anthony A. Rutkowski 

55. Interior photograph of the Jungle Inn,, identified by Anthony 

A . Rutkowski 

56. Photograph of the interior of the gun turret at the Jungle Inn. _ 

57. More detailed photograph of the gun turret at the Jungle Inn_ 

58. Photograph showing gun turret as it looked from the inside of 

the Jungle Inn 

59. Group of photographs of the Colony Club at Chesapeake, 

Ohio, submitted by Anthony A. Rutkowski 

60. Envelope containing papers from Colony Club, submitted by 

Anthony A. Rutkowski 

61. Chart submitted by Edward J, Allen, chief of police, Youngs- 

town, Ohio 

62. Photograph of six men arrested in Detroit, Mich., on March 
9, 1948, identified by Edward J. Allen 

Criminal records furnished by Chief Allen, of various persons 
noted on his chart (exhibit No. 61) 

Report of Dr. Razinskv, Warren, Ohio, on the physical con- 
dition of Sheriff Milliken 

Telegram from the Committee to Sheriff George Timiney 
requesting his financial records, and reply 

Criminal record of Tony Paul, alias Tony Scott, or Neufio 
Scott, from Toledo (Ohio) Police Department, No. 6792__ 

"Report of achievement, 1941 to 1948," submitted by ex- 
Sheriff Hennessy 

Financial list submitted by ex-sheriff Hennessy 

69. Cleveland (Ohio) Police Department record of Alfred Polizzi ._ 

70. Criminal record of Joseph Di Carlo 

71. Record relating to parole of James Licavoli, on the sponsor- 

ship of Forrest Thompson, and two sets of criminal records 
of James Licavoli 

72. Letter to the committee from Max Marmorstein, Cleveland, 

Ohio 

73. Documents submitted by Max Marmorstein, re his association 

with John King and Abe Allenberg in the Wofford Hotel in 
Miami Beach, Fla 

74. Letter to Chief of Police George Gugel, Newport, Ky., dated 

August 18, 1950, from George Robinson, associate counsel 
for the committee 

75. Record of operations of Police Department of Newport, Ky., 

for 1950, submitted by Chief Gugel 

See footnotes at end of table. 



63. 
64. 
65. 
66. 
67. 
68. 



114 

114 

114 

116 
116 

127 

169 

208 

209 

211 

212 
212 
212 

212 

215 

216 

230 

232 

240 

243 

256 

256 

262 
263 
311 
317 

355 
365 

367 

379 
381 



K 1 ) 
0) 

0) 

0) 
0) 

457 

( 2 ) 
457 

457 

458 

459 
460 

( 2 ) 

461 

( 2 ) 
( 2 ) 
462 

(2) 

( 2 ) 
( 3 ) 

462 

463 

464 
( 2 ) 
465 
466 

( 2 ) 
466 

0) 

468 
470 



VI 



CONTENTS 
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS— Continued 



Number and summary of exhibits 


Intro- 
duced on 
page— 


Appears 

on 
page— 


76. Copies of the orders submitted by Malcolm R. Rhoads, re 

stopping gambling in Newport, Ky _ ..__ 

77. Chart introduced by Anthony Rutkowski. _ _ _ _ _ 


389 
416 

420 

421 


475 

( 2 ) 


78. Wanted circular, dated July 12, 1930, requesting pick-up of 
Alfred Polizzi and John Angersola, alias King, for question- 
ing re double murder, signed by Chief of Police Jacob Graul, 
Cleveland, Ohio ___ . _ 


477 


79. Record of police department, Cleveland, Ohio, No. F-74349, 
re Alfred Polizzi and Joseph Massei _ 


478 



i Returned to witness. 
2 On file with committee. 
* Written into record. 



INVESTIGATION OF OEGANIZED CKIME IN INTEKSTATE 

COMMERCE 



WEDNESDAY, JANUAEY 17, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Cleveland, Ohio. 

The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 10 :15 a. m., 
in room 318, Federal Building, Senator Estes Kefauver (Chairman), 
presiding. 

Present : Senator Kefauver. 

Also present : Rudolph Halley, chief counsel ; Joseph L. Nellis, as- 
sistant counsel; John McCormick, investigator. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

I think in the beginning of our hearing in this session, in Cleveland 
and this area, it might be well to first state the purposes or to restate 
the purposes of this committee. 

This committee is operating under authority of Senate Resolution 
202. The purpose is to investigate organized crime in interstate com- 
merce, to make recommendations to the United States Senate and to 
the Congress for amendments to laws or any new laws that might 
prevent or help prevent the use of the vehicle of interstate commerce 
in furtherance of organized Nation-wide crime that operates across 
State lines. The Federal jurisdiction is, of course, only in connec- 
tion with interstate commerce. 

It is not the province of this committee and, of course, it is mani- 
festly not possible for the committee to endeavor or proper for the 
committee to try to ferret out and to go into local situations. We may 
be interested, but it is not in our jurisdiction to try to find out who is 
involved in criminal acivities of purely a local nature or to try to 
clean them up. That is, as it should be, the province of the local 
enforcement officers, and it is only when the people in the local en- 
forcement are interested that local matters can be solved; and, of 
course, they can be whenever the local people demand it. 

I might also review what we have done to date. We have tried to 
have hearings and we have had many hearings in what we consider 
some of the nerve centers of organized crime in the United States. 
We do not mean by the fact that I call a city a nerve center that that 
particular city may be contaminated or that crime might be rampant 
in any particular place that we have a hearing. For instance, we are 
having a hearing here in Cleveland, in the State of Ohio, where your 
Governor has with the State enforcement officers with unusual vigi- 
lance and vigor and determination done a tremendously good job 



2 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

in cleaning up matters in the State of Ohio, and where your police 
department and your commissioner of public safety have done an in- 
telligent job with great determination to see that you have good law 
enforcement here in the city of Cleveland. 

We congratulate these public officials and many others upon the 
splendid work they have done. They have made our task very much 
easier so that our appearance here in Cleveland, and in Ohio, is not 
to be considered as a reflection upon Ohio or the city of Cleveland or 
upon the good law-enforcement officers you have here, both Federal 
and State, who have cooperated so magnificently with Mr. Nellis and 
the members of our staff in preparing for this hearing; but, rather, 
that we do find that either now or in the past there have been people 
from this area who have operated in many States in violation of 
various laws who we believe form an important part of the network 
in the Nation-wide organization which we are charged with inves- 
tigating. 

We do ask the cooperation of witnesses and of others in trying to 
help us get the facts so that we can report to the Senate. The calling 
or not calling of any witness is not intended to be a reflection upon 
any person or, of course, the fact that any witness is not called who 
may be known to some to be involved in a local situation doesn't mean 
that we are giving anybody a clean bill of health. 

We have endeavored to ferret out and will endeavor to present the 
matters that we feel are important from our viewpoint. 

We have had hearings, as you know, many hearings in Washington 
in which Federal officials and State officials have appeared. Also in 
Washington we have had witnesses from various parts of the country. 
We have had hearings in the field, in Miami and Tampa and Philadel- 
phia, New York, involving New York and New Jersey, and Chicago, 
St. Louis, Kansas City, Las Vegas, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. 

Before we finish our investigation we hope to have other hearings 
in some of these places; and, of course, there will be witnesses from 
some places that will be called who have not as yet appeared before 
the committee for one reason or the other. The committee will then 
ferret out the facts and present the conclusions and the findings with 
our recommendations to the Senate. 

The fundamental purpose of any committee of this kind is to get 
information upon which to make legislative recommendations, and 
that is our purpose here. Also, I want to make it clear that if any 
person's name is brought out in this hearing where they feel that they 
have been done an injustice, if they want to make any explanation or 
to repudiate or to enlarge upon anything that has been said in this 
hearing, we invite them to immediately get in touch with either the 
chairman or some member of the staff, and we will endeavor on the 
same day and during the same hearing period if possible to give them 
an opportunity of immediately being heard. It isn't our purpose to 
try to smear the name of anybody or to let anybody's name be used 
without giving them an opportunity of making an explanation. 

I like to follow the procedure of first having executive hearings in 
yvhich we go over the testimony of all the witnesses. Our time is 
running out ; our engagements are many, and it is going to be difficult 
for us to follow that procedure in the future, although while we are 
here we may have some executive hearings where we are not certain 
about what 'the witness is going to test i I'y. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 6 

We are greatly indebted to Judge Jones, the senior circuit judge, 
for the use of this hearing room. Also, I found that Republicans do 
do some things that are worth while once in a while. My colleague 
in the House of Representatives, Congressman Bender, has been very 
generous in giving us his congressional offices for the headquarters for 
our staff, for which we are very grateful. 

Mr. Nellis and the others who have been here preparing for this 
hearing have reported what I have heard from many sources: that 
never have we received fuller cooperation or greater help from the 
State and Federal and local officials, the district attorney, the marshal, 
heads of the different bureaus, the police department, the mayor, and 
the Governor and his various organizations of the State of Ohio. 
This gives us much encouragement, and we are very grateful for the 
assistance we have received. 

Back in the spring of last year, when this resolution under which 
we are operating had not even at that time been passed by the United 
States Senate, the distinguished Governor of your great State, Gov- 
ernor Lausche, came to Washington and did the chairman the honor 
of calling upon hinr to give him some encouragement on the idea of 
an investigation of the kind that we are having. 

At that time he offered his cooperation. This was very heartening 
to me and to the committee, and thus it has been that the offer of 
cooperation, one of great encouragement and great help that we have 
had throughout our inquiry, has come from Governor Lausche, your 
chief executive of Ohio. 

The chairman and the members of the committee have observed 
with much interest and appreciation the great effort that your Gov- 
ernor has made to clean up criminal situations and gambling in this 
State. We commended him for it. 

And the same is also true of your mayor and your district attorney 
and your local police department here. 

I know that we are signally honored today in having as our first 
witness a man who, as judge of the common-pleeas court here in 
Cleveland many years ago, recognized the menace of organized and 
commercial criminal operations, and did something about it, later as 
the mayor of this great city and then the chief executive of the State 
of Ohio. 

We are grateful, and I want to publicly express our thanks to 
Governor Lausche for his backing, for his suggestions, and for the 
help that he and all agencies of the State government have given the 
committee and our investigators, not only since we have been here but 
in other places where they have information or suggestions that would 
be useful. 

So that we are indeed honored, Governor Lausche, to have you as 
our first witness, if you will come around, sir. 

And, sir, it is not that we have any question about whether you or 
many other witnesses would tell us the truth, but it is a rule of our 
committee that we swear all of our witnesses. 

Governor, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give 
this committee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God? 

Governor Lausche. I do. 

The Chairman. Before we start, I do want to introduce some 
members of our staff. 



4 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE; 

Mr. John McCormack, on the end, who has worked hard with the 
committee in many places, as well as here. Mr. Joe Nellis, who has 
headed up the preparations for this hearing, and who will have prin- 
cipal charge of it today, on my right. 

Our chief counsel, Mr. Rudolph Halley, on my left, and Mr. Klein 
is here somewhere, one of our associate counsels. 

We are also delighted to have Mr. Miller, the district attorney, with 
us, who has been so helpful, and we hope you will be here with us all 
during the sessions, sir. 

Mr. Miller. Thank you, .sir. 

TESTIMONY OP HON. FRANK J. LAUSCHE, GOVERNOR OE THE 

STATE OE OHIO 

The Chairman. Governor Lausche, do you have a preliminary 
statement that you wish to make, or that you will make in connection 
with the matters here? 
Governor Lausche. Yes. 

The Chairman. We would be very pleased to hear it. 
Governor Lausche. Senator Kefauver, Mr. Miller, Mayor Burke, 
and your associates who are here in Cleveland and in Ohio, in behalf 
of the people of Ohio, I want to express gratitude to you for coming 
to our State to pursue the laudible work in which you are engaged. 

I am certain that Ohioans generally, and particularly Ohioans in 
those counties where lawless elements at times have dominated, wel- 
come your presence here. 

I personally am glad that you are in our State. I am delighted that 
the United States Senate created your committee for the purpose 
of studying and investigating the evil influences of commercialized 
gambling upon our Nation and upon our people. 

I would like to give you a bit of the background from which my 
testimony stems. It begins as judge of the Municipal Court of Cleve- 
land. A case was tried in my courtroom in which a Polish gentleman, 
who was engaged in the butcher business, developed the habit of going 
to the Harvard Club. 

That was a large-scale gambling enterprise, operated in Newburgh 
Heights, just outside of Cleveland, prior to the year of 1941. 

This man was sued for $2,500, as I remember it, by a lawyer, who 
claimed that the butcher had engaged him to sue the gambling club 
to recover losses sustained in that gambling institution. 
The suit was filed to recover the gambling losses. 
The day for the trial approached, and this butcher, who lost his 
life savings and his two butcher shops gambling in the Harvard Club, 
was visited by a black, large sedan, rilled with men. 

They went upstairs to his house, and they said, "If you love your 
wife and your child, you had better not appear in that courtroom 
and testify in support of the petition which you filed." 

He notified his lawyer, and the case was continued. It again came 
up for trial, but prior to that date, while he was absent, a machine 
again appeared at his home, and one of the men came to the wife and 
told her that she had better not have her husband testify in that 
lawsuit. 

The lawsuit was dismissed, and there yon have a clear presentation 
of the problem of the American citizen. To that Polish man, the 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 1 5 

question came, "Were the courts more powerful than the gangsters?" 

"Could he go to court and testify and have protection of his body 
and his family? Or should he yield to the threat of the gangsters 
and stay away from the court?" 

Well, he yielded to the gangsters and dismissed his lawsuit. The 
case never came to trial. They paid him two or three hundred dol- 
lars, and he took it. 

Now the strange paradox. The lawyer who filed the suit for him 
was engaged on a percentage basis, his compensation to come out of 
the amount of judgment that would be rendered in the suit to recover 
the losses. 

The lawyer sued him for the 33% percent. He said, "I would have 
won that lawsuit. I would have been paid $2,500 ; and, because you 
dismissed it, I lost that money," that is the case that came before 
me for hearing. 

Senator Kefauver, when that case was concluded, there was only 
one conviction in my mind, and that is the individual who commits a 
crime isn't the man to fear in our society. He stands by himself, 
and on the spur of the moment may commit an offense, but he is not 
a threat and a danger. 

The threat and the danger to our society and our Government is 
from the organized gangsters and the racketeers, I take it that those 
are the ones that you are primarily concerned with in making your in- 
vestigation here today. 

Now, let's pass into the next scene of this kaleidoscopic presenta- 
tion that came to me as a public official, concerning the operation of 
these men in Cuyahoga County. 

And I say to you that the ramifications of gambling operations, with 
all of their evil influences in many places in the Nation, have their 
root to some extent among the large operators within this State, and 
especially within the area where you are sitting now. 

I was elected to the common-pleas bench of Cuyahoga County and 
in the course of events was assigned to preside in the criminal court 
of the common-pleas court. Within a short time after I went on that 
bench, I had at least a half dozen men whose cases were pending be- 
fore me on pleas of guilty on charges of embezzlement and defalcation. 
I had to decide whether I was going to place them on parole or send 
them to the penitentiary. 

The cases were referred to the probation department and reports 
made. The reports showed that they had positions of trust where 
they handled money. They started going to the Harvard Club, the 
Thomas Club, or the Ohio Villa, and they lost small sums of money. 
They continued going, believing they would recoup their losses ; but, 
instead of reestablishing themselves, they got more deeply involved, 
and eventually the discovery was made by the employer. 

One man in particular, a school superintendent, was before me, and 
on the day he was to be sentenced he was standing in front of me while 
I was on the bench, and I said that the probation report "looked bad." 
When I sat back there was in the rear of the room a lady who began 
to sob and children began to weep. 

The report showed that he was married and had children, and I 
knew immediately that it was his family weeping in the belief that 
he was going to the penitentiary. And there and then I said, 
"What a travesty. This man I am sending to the penitentiary, but 



6 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

the racketeers who have his money are free." They were defying the 
]aw. This man was their victim, and he was going to the penitentiary. 

I said to myself, "No, that can't possibly be; that is not justice." 

He went back to the county jail, and I called in the foreman of the 
grand jury and instructed him to use the fullest scope of the law to 
smash the places. They issued subpenas for the mayors and the chiefs 
of police and the enforcement officials to appear before the grand jury 
to testify as to the presence of gambling in those communities. On 
the day they appeared to testify, the grand- jury foreman, a retired 
school teacher — they called him Mr. Chips — a Mr. Dakes, a very fine 
man, came up to me and he said, "We are up against it, Judge. The 
men refuse to testify unless we pay them their witness fees." 

And I said, "You go down and pay them the witness fees." 

Well, they testified, "We know nothing about it." That is all they 
said, so we were blocked. 

Well, I wasn't going to be stopped by that procedure, and we 
continued after them. I issued search warrants for one club and 
another. Word would come back to me that the places were tipped 
between the time the search warrant was issued and the time it was 
served. I knew there were tip-offs, and I decided one day to call in 
the man who was to issue the search warrant. I had him in my 
private office, and I said, "Here is a search warrant for the Harvard 
Club." I had written there in longhand, "You are hereby commanded 
forthwith, immediately, and without delay to search the Harvard 
Club and to seize any gambling equipment that you might find there." 

I said to him, "I am reading to you what I have written here ; that 
is, 'immediately, forthwith and without delay'." 

He said, "I don't have any deputy sheriffs." 

I said, "Well, wait in this office until you find them." 

So the deputy sheriffs came in somewhat later, and I gave them a 
search warrant and said, "Go right on out now and make the search." 

When they started out, I had my men along the line spotting to see 
what would be done there; and, as we expected, the deputy sheriff 
stopped in the drug store en route, went to the telephone, was in 
there about a half hour, came out, got into his car and went on 
toward the Harvard Club, parked his car a block away and sat in his 
car for a half hour, and then went in. At first, when he went in 
everything was clear, but I had a man in the place who was there to 
find out what happened. 

We charged that deputy sheriff with contempt of court, and he was 
tried by another judge and convicted. Those three places closed. 

I pointed that out to you for the purpose of demonstrating that 
those men are defiant; they are challenging; they have no respect for 
law and order. 

But while they were closed inside Cuyahoga County, there were 
the Mounds Club in Lake County, Pettibone Club in Geauga County, 
the Jungle Inn in Trumbull County, and the Colony Club on the Ohio 
River, a large-scale operation with slot machines, roulette, crap tables, 
chuck-a-luck, horse-race betting, and every type of gambling in exist- 
ence, run by Cleveland men. There is that link. They continued to 
operate. 

I became Governor and I called in sheriffs and told them, "Close 
up these places." 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 7 

They closed for a day or two, and then they would open. Well, I 
decided that we would close them. I decided that I would use every 
power within my command; that is, use the workmen's compensation 
department, the unemployment-compensation department, the State 
fire marshal's office, the State building code department, and the liquor 
department. 1 placed in charge of that liquor department Mr. An- 
thony Rutkowski to coordinate the activities. 

Senator Kefauver, I can't begin to describe to you the brazenness 
of the local officials called upon to help, who gave no aid. The places 
were closed, and without the least bit of aid from the local officials. 

Now the Colony Club, the Jungle Inn, the Pettibone, and the 
Mounds Club are closed. I have here reports on each of these clubs 
showing graphs of what they had in the place, and you may have these. 
For instance, there is a graph of the Jungle Inn. The graph shows 
the catwalks where the guards with guns move about. It shows the 
roulette room, maybe not that one, but here is another one of it. 

The Chairman. Governor, we are glad to have these. They will 
be made exhibits to your testimony. 

(The documents referred to are identified as exhibit No. 1, and are 
on file with the committee.) 

Governor Lattsche. I do think that if Mr. Rutkowski would testify 
that he would want to make use of them. These are accurate graphs 
of every bit of equipment that was in those places. It shows the slot 
machines, the roulette tables, the chuck-a-luck tables. It shows the 
great guarding they had, and how you got in and out of the place. 
You had to go through two or three doors. 

Well, those places are closed. Now, they are again beginning to 
reappear. 

The Chairman. At this time, do you want to tell us any experi- 
ences that you had with some sheriffs or local officials, or would you 
rather Mr. Rutkowski would do that ? 

Governor Lausche. Well, there was the Jungle Inn episode in 
Trumbull County. We had an arrangement made that at, I think, it 
was 8 : 30 or 9 : 30, Rutkowski was to be at the place. The State high- 
way patrol, whose powers are limited only to traffic violations, was to 
be on the outside of the building simultaneously with the appearance- 
of Rutkowski in the inn. They were to call me and let me know 
whether they were in. I was in Cleveland at the Carter Hotel, and 
the highway patrol was to immediately notify the sheriff of Trum- 
bull County that our men were in there. The call was placed to the 
sheriff's office. That sheriff did not appear until sometime around 
12 o'clock, I believe. Mr. Rutkowski will have the time more 
accurately. 

To my great amazement, I was informed over the telephone that 
when we tried to take the one-hundred-and-some slot machines to 
Columbus, Ohio, the sheriff aided in stopping the removal of them. 

In Geauga County, back in 1945 and 1946, 1 repeatedly had the sheriff 
of Geauga County, Mr. Harlan, and the prosecutor, Mr. Bostwick, in 
my office, asking them to use their offices to stop the operation of the 
Pettibone Club, which was a larger-scale operation than the Jungle 
Inn, and they would close it down for a day or two and then it would 
open again. 



8 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Bostwick said, "Whenever you have evidence to offer to the grand 
jury or to me as prosecutor, I will prepare the papers and file them." 

I said to him, "I believe you ought to go out and look into this matter, 
discover it." 

The place continued to operate on and off through 1947, 1948, but 
in 1949, or early 1950, we closed it. 

The incumbent judge passed away, and I appointed a judge by the 
name of Thomas to the common-pleas bench. Judge Thomas, I was 
convinced, would take hold of it. Well, he did take hold of it, and the 
place is now closed. 

Down in Lawrence County, Rutkowski and his men went into the 
Colony Club ; and, following that, a suit was filed against the common- 
pleas judge charging him with violation of law in permitting Rut- 
kowski to serve a warrant and entering upon this place of crime and 
debauchery in defiance to duly constituted authority. Just within the 
last week I received word from the man who filed the suit that he was 
engaged by men in the background to file it. Well, the suit was dis- 
missed; the men pleaded guilty, and that place is closed at present. 

But what are the new movements? In Green County — and I want 
to point this out to you — Green County has begun to show signs of 
the development of the Oak Grove. They moved out of the Continental 
Club and they opened what is known as the Colonial Inn. They hired 
busses that go to Ashland, Ky., Huntington, W. Va., and provide 
transportation for people in those States. They bring them across the 
Ohio River to this place which is just beginning to risk itself in a 
modified form. They have large-scale bingo, and in the back room, 
they have 40 slot machines. This came to me within the last 2 weeks, 
and I have no hesitation in disclosing it. My men are investigating 
it, and the mayor in Ironton better get the place closed. 

Anyhow, there you have interstate operation. The Jungle Inn in 
Trumbull County is trying to revive its operations, and it has sprung 
up in a new quarter known as the Jennings Inn. 

But that is, Senator Kefauver, about the sum and substance of my 
experience in regard to these operators. 

Lucas County had at one time the Benor Club and the Webster Club, 
and the gamblers from Detroit, Mich., came into that county frequently. 
They tried to get into a large-scale operation but never reached the 
proportions that they did in the Mounds Club, the Pettibone Club, 
the Colony Club, and the Jungle Inn. 

I don't know whether you have been told about the Mounds Club. 
That is about 15 miles outside of Cleveland, in Lake County. It 
catered to the elite and the rich. The names of the persons who went 
there come from the supposedly upper bracket of our social strata. I 
think Mr. Rutkowski has the complete list. 

One night there appeared a group of 8 or 9, 10 masked men in the 
place with guns, and the people thought it was a show, but they found 
out that it was a robbery. The report was that there was $300,000 
stolen. 

The astounding and the shocking thing is that the operators tried to 
suppress the investigation. The sheriff of Lake County did not want 
to hear about it; the prosecutor laid back. There wasn't an effort 
made to apprehend the robbers. The effort was made to conceal from 
the public view what was going on in that club. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9 

That is about the extent of the operation of what I would call the 
large-scale gambling casinos, and you now come to the wire service. 

Continental Wire Service has its roots in Ohio, in my judgment. It 
provides the racing information to those who need it in the business of 
taking wagers on race horses. 

A few months ago I had the chairman of the public utilities com- 
mission, Harold Mason, report to me how many wire outlets they have 
in Ohio and that is available to the committee if it desires to have it. 
I don't have the information with me. 

The Chairman. Mr. Nellis says we have the number. 

Governor Lausche. You have ? 

The Chairman. And we are interested in it and we have it. 

Governor Lausche. I just want to make this further preliminary 
statement to you, and then I will be glad to have you put questions 
to me if you want to. 

Based upon my experience and the information that came to me as 
a judge of the municipal court, judge of the common-pleas court, 
mayor of Cleveland, and now as Governor of Ohio, I am convinced 
that the tolerance of commercial gambling produces the following 
evils, separate and apart from the gambling itself : 

1. The breakdown of law and order in the community where the 
commercial gambling enterprise exists. 

2. The removal of respect of the youth and juveniles of the com- 
munity for the duly established courts and law-enforcement agencies. 

The Chairman. Will you amplify on that, Governor, at this point ? 

Governor Lausche. Well, you have the young fellow who comes 
from an impoverished home with many children. He does not have 
an automobile in the home, at night he is on the street corners. 
Saturday nights he sees others going by. in automobiles and the 
thought comes to him, "I would like to have an automobile ride," and 
he decides to take a car. He takes it, drives it for a couple of hours 
and brings it back within several blocks from where he took it. He 
is apprehended, brought before the court, and charged with the 
crime of stealing an automobile, a felony. Several years ago, if 
he would try to get into the Army, they would say, "You are unfit to be 
a member of the United States Army, much less of the Navy, and still 
less of the Marines. You are morally turbid." 

That young fellow, charged with a felony, knows that within 
three blocks of where he lives there is a gang of gangsters and racket- 
eers making money by the barrel, policemen going by, sheriffs know- 
ing about it, prosecutors knowing about it, and they are not disturbed. 

Senator Kefauver, what can the youth of our communities think if 
they are brought to account for their least transgressions when organ- 
ized men of that type go unchallenged ? 

On the one hand, we are fighting juvenile delinquency; and, on the 
other hand, we are tolerating the existence of conditions which, by 
example, demoralize and break down the youth. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say, Governor, that these gangsters not 
only go unchallenged but have begun a campaign to buy respect- 
ability and public acceptance? 

Governor Lausche. I would like to go on with this statement, here, 
if you don't mind. 



10 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

3. The precipitation into crime and frequently into imprisonment 
of individuals who lose to those commercial gambling houses the money 
taken from their employers. 

I believe I have elucidated that by my description of these men who 
came before me in the common-pleas court. 

4. The deprivation of medical care, dental care, nourishing food, 
clothing, and other sustenances, to the wives and children of the vic- 
tims of these enterprises. Except for the Mounds Club, the different 
places which I have mentioned in existence in Ohio were frequented by 
the ordinary worker. They would lose their money, the money which 
they should have spent for doctors and dentists and food and clothing 
and other sustenance for the family. 

5. The establishment of a dynasty of racketeers, whose powers with 
the law-enforcement officials and agencies are greater than those of the 
citizenry itself. 

In these places which I described, the citizenry didn't want those 
gambling enterprises continued. They wanted them stopped, but they 
were helpless to act. 

This dynasty was in control. They were the government within the 
government, and their government within was more powerful than 
the sovereign authority of that community. 

The Chairman. Governor, at that point, would you tell us what you 
think of the attitude of any law-enforcement officer who thinks that, 
if he really enforces the law, he will make himself unpopular with 
the people? 

Governor Lausche. Senator Kefauver, I am glad you asked that 
question. 

The Chairman. We have had some enforcement officers who say, 
"Well, people want a liberal policy; people like to have racketeering 
and criminal activity, and they elect me on that platform." 

You have been carrying on this effort out here very earnestly a long 
time. You seem to have done very well. What is your experience 
with the people on it ? 

Governor Lausche. Liberality must be distinguished from criminal 
license. I am sure that you are not concerned about the individual 
who engages in a poker game in his home, or even a dice game. We 
are concerned about the organized racketeer, who is exploiting gullible 
people in the operation of these gambling institutions. 

I was a member of the Army. I was a young American, and not 
for the moment have I directed my efforts against the weaknesses of 
the human flesh and the human mind. The Bible is full of descrip- 
tions of what has taken place, indicating that there has always been 
these human frailties. 

But that is different from the organized-gambling racketeer. And, 
Senator Kefauver, in my opinion, 95 percent and more of the people 
of the State want these men driven out of the communities, and a 
negligible few want them in existence. 

The public official who wants to succeed will do so much better on 
the policy of being reasonable in the effort to drive out of existence 
bad men than he will if he tolerates them. 

The Chairman. Well, 1 just want to say I agree with you fully. 

Governor Lausche. Yes. And you have had experience along that 
line by the fight that was made against you in your State. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE: 11 

The opposition you get in a campaign is that which is generated by 
the money contributions of the gamblers, but that doesn't produce any- 
thing when a militant, aroused public is on the side of the person who 
is trying to clean up conditions. 

And may I elaborate a little more on point 5? This dynasty of 
gambling racketeers has great technique in appealing to decent peo- 
ple. If you have a charitable project that you want to develop with 
money, a good one, go to them and they will give to you liberally. 

And we have a lot of innocent, lofty-minded citizens, and even 
spiritual leaders, who don't recognize the fact that the money is given 
in a measure to quiet those people against protesting about the nefar- 
ious practices in which the donor is engaged. 

Now, 6: The accumulation of tremendous wealth by the operators, 
which is, from a practical standpoint, stolen from their victims, and 
subsequently invested in legitimate enterprise, driving honest and 
law-abiding citizens out of business through the competition inter- 
posed and the methods used in supplementing the natural competition. 

They establish businesses that compete, but in the operation of those 
newly established businesses, they resort to the same blackjacking, 
threatening, intimidating, law-breaking method that they did in the 
operation of their gambling joints. 

They channelize their business to those who kick back, and that 
is why you have in so many communities in the Nation the cry of 
the little fellow who is being driven out of business by the gangster 
who has come in, and set up the business. 

They are way in the background, while dupes are out in front 
operating these businesses for them. 

Now then, I think I had better close. Your committee, Senator Ke- 
fauver, has already done a great public service in the influence that 
it has had upon the Federal Congress in adopting the law prohibit- 
ing the transportation across State lines of slot machines, and pro- 
hibiting them from being exhibited for play on Federal property. 

I believe serious consideration should be given about the draft- 
ing of a law that will circumscribe the use of the interstate wire lines, 
especially in those cases where you know the service is directed 
solely to gambling units in various communities. 

It is a plague ; it is an evil that will require the joint attack of the 
local government, the State government, and the Federal Government. 

In my judgment, whatever money is spent on it will be more than 
repaid by the savings that will be achieved through a hundred ways. 

John Smith today, the worker with the family, is gambling his 
money away at one of these joints. Tomorrow he is begging for poor 
relief. 

Today he is an honest man, working, and tomorrow he is in jail 
because of embezzlement. 

His children and family, happy today, but tomorrow the home 
broken because of the poison spread by these men. 

And I urge this committee to continue this investigation and try 
and come forth with further legislation that will help make the fight 
against these people. 

Now I will be glad to answer whatever questions you have. 

The Chairman. Mr. Nellis, do you have any questions to ask the 
Governor ? 

68958 — 51 — pt. 6 2 



12 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. May I ask Governor Lausche one question concern- 
ing the present State of Ohio law with respect to the removal of pub- 
lic officials who do not do their duty 'i 

Governor Lausche. That brings up a very interesting thought. I 
haven't made this statement publicly, yet. 

Following my service on the common pleas bench, when the Harvard 
Club and the Thomas Club and the Villa were closed, those in charge 
went to the legislature, and, in the legislature of 1943, had the law 
changed, taking away from the judge of the common pleas court the 
power to issue a search warrant. 

I didn't know that until we went down into the Colony Club, and 
the validity of our search warrant was challenged, and I said, "Well, 
that power existed when I was on the common pleas bench, because 
I issued the search warrants." 

We checked into the statutes, and foud that after that fight in 
1940 and 1941, the legislature changed the statute and took away from 
the common pleas judge the power to issue them, and placed it only 
in the magistrate down in the little community. That is, you would 
have to go to the justice of the peace to get the search warrant. 

We did have a law which enabled the removal of sheriffs, and that 
was reasonable. But the influences changed the law, and it is my 
recollection that it now reads that you have to get 15 percent of 
the signatures for removal. And that makes it simply impossible. 

I have been urging the adoption of one or two laws. One, the power 
to remove sheriffs, and secondly, if they do not give that power, then 
the power to call upon the attorney general of Ohio to institute pad- 
lock proceedings, if and when the local officials fail to act. 

I do not know whether the legislature will grant that power or 
not. I do have the power to remove mayors. 

Mr. Nellis. You have done so, isn't that right, Governor Lausche ? 
Governor Lausche. Yes, I have done it, and when I made the state- 
ment a moment ago that they better clean up that condition within 
the city of Ironton, I had that in mind. 

But these men who run these places have gotten keen; they don't 
establish themselves in a city ; they establish themselves in a township. 
Mr. Nellis. Halls Corners ? 

Governor Lausche. Halls Corners was an artificially created 
city with the man who was mayor of the city and the officials con- 
nected with the Jungle Inn. 
That is about it. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley, do you have any questions? 
Mr. Halley. No questions. 

Governor Lausche. Just a final word. The fact is that the Ohio men 
are now in Nevada with that large-scale casion. 
The Chairman. The Desert Inn ; yes, sir. 

Governor Lausche. Yes. That shows the extent to which they oper- 
ated here. 

The Chairman. Governor Lausche, before you leave the stand, I 
just want to say that I have never heard a more forceful or sincere 
or convincing statement of the reasons why these commercial organized 
criminals and gangs ought to be eliminated by every method that we 
have as you have given today. 

I wish thai all the good people in the country could have heard 
your statement. It was most convincing. Again I want to say that 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 13 

we are grateful to you and whatever effective means we have in the 
Federal Government to assist, we will be right with you cooperating 
in the future. 

Governor Lausciie. Thank you, Senator Kefauver, and congrat- 
ulations. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Mr. Arthur B. McBride, please. Is Mr. McBride here? 

I am advised Mr. McBride will be here shortly. 

In the meantime, do you have another witness ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, Alvin Giesey. 

The Chairman. Is Mr. Giesey here at the present time? Alvin 
Giesey ? 

The purpose of calling these witnesses at this time is to obtain cer- 
tain records and books. It is a little out of order on our schedule but 
■we have called for certain records and books that we wanted them 
to produce at this time, so they are called for that limited purpose. 

When Mr. McBride and Mr. Giesey arrive, will the marshal notify 
the chairman, and we will dispense with other hearings at that time? 

The Marshal. Mr. McBride will be here in just a minute. 

The Chairman. Mayor Burke, we will ask you to come on. 

Mr. Mayor, do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to 
give to this committe will be the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mayor Burke. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. THOMAS A. BURKE, MAYOR, CLEVELAND, OHIO 

The Chairman. Mayor Burke, I stated in the beginning that you 
have been very splendid to our committee. 

I have heard you have done your utmost to make Cleveland not 
only a beautiful city but a clean city. We want to compliment you 
and wish you well in your endeavor, and also we will be glad to have 
any information you can give that would be of help, as to the findings 
of the committee and also the recommendations that you wish to 
make. 

Mayor Burke. Thank you, Senator. 

I would like, first of all, to welcome you and your staff to Cleve- 
land. I say that not only as mayor but on behalf of the people of 
Cleveland. I think you will find that we have a city of homes and 
churches, and that this community is back of you in what you are 
trying to do. Our director of public safety, Mr. Sutton, and our 
police department, I think, have already been of help to your staff. 

The Chairman. They certainly have. 

Mayor Burke. I want to offer you any assistance that we may be 
able to render and any cooperation that we can. Governor Lausche 
covered many of the points that I would have made if he did not, 
and I don't want to be repetitious, but I would like to say, briefly, 
that Cleveland, like all large cities, has some crime and some vice, 
some commercialized gambling; but I think the evidence will show 
that for a great many years our police department has done a reason- 
ably good job in harassing the underworld. I think that is demon- 
strated by the fact that many years ago the organized commercial 



14 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

gamblers were driven out of the city and set up house, so to speak, 
in the suburbs. 

Governor Lausche has already mentioned the Harvard Club and 
the Thomas Club, which were located outside the city limits of Cleve- 
land. They operated openly and notoriously for years under the 
so-called home rule policy of the then sheriff, who took the position 
that if a gambling club was located, let us say, in Newburgh Heights, 
that he and his deputies do nothing about it unless invited to do so by 
the local city or village officials. 

During those years our prosecuting attorney, Frank Cullitan, 
attempted to harass these clubs, and so did Governor Lausche, who 
was then a judge, as he told you. But it wasn't until Joe Sweeney, 
our present sheriff, was appointed that those places closed, and I think 
I can make an interesting point there. 

His reputation in this community for law enforcement was such — 
he was an inspector of police — that the day he was appointed sheriff 
those clubs closed up never to reopen, and I make that point because 
I think it demonstrates that when a law-enforcement officer means 
business, he can close a gambling joint with a telephone call. He 
doesn't even have to raid. 

After our sheriff drove the organized gambling places out of the 
suburbs, as Governor Lausche told you, they went into other counties 
and even into other States. It is true that many of the leaders in 
commercial gambling in this country reside in Cleveland and its sub- 
urbs, but I can say to you that they do not operate here. They operate 
in many legitimate businesses in which they have invested. Whether 
or not that is a good thing I think is extremely debatable, but they do- 
not operate in Cleveland, that is, they do not operate illegally in 
Cleveland. 

I think that what you are trying to do will be of great help to local 
enforcement officials. For example, as Governor Lausche mentioned, 
the interstate wire service — you have already acted, as I understand 
it, on making it illegal to ship slot machines in interstate commerce, 
and I think that enforcement officers on the local level can be assisted 
greatly by legislation which will seek to stamp out and harass gam- 
bling and vice on an interstate level. 

That is about all I have to say to you, Senator, and, of course, I 
will be very happy to respond to any questions. 

The Chairman. Mr. Nellis, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Nellis. No. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley, do you have any questions? 

Mr. Halley. No. 

The Chairman. Mayor Burke, we appreciate the courtesy you have 
done us in coming to testify in giving us a statement of conditions here 
in Cleveland, and we want to thank you for the hospitality of your- 
self and of Director Sutton, and the members of his department. 

We hope you will stay with us as much as you can. 

Mayor Burke. Thank you. I will. 

The Chairman. Mr. McBride, will you come around and be sworn? 

Mr. McBride, do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. McBride. I do. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15 

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR B. McBRIDE, CLEVELAND, OHIO, ACCOM- 
PANIED BY WALTER GALLAGHER AND WILLIAM DEMPSEY, 
ATTORNEYS, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

The Chairman. Mr. McBride, we called you, I believe, at. this time 
for the limited purpose of certain books and records, and what not, 
which have been requested. We agreed that a telegram would serve 
the purpose of a subpena. 

Let the record show that Mr. Walter Gallagher and Mr. William 
Dempsey, of Washington, D. C. — of what building? 

Mr. Gallagher. Bowen Building. 

The Chairman. Bowen Building, Washington, D. C, are appear- 
ing as counsel for Mr. McBride. 

Mr. Gallagher. May I make a statement, Senator ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Gallagher. I would merely like the record to reflect that Mr. 
McBride is here voluntarily and not pursuant to subpena as has been 
reported in the newspapers. 

The Chairman. The agreement we had with you, Mr. Gallagher, 
was that you agreed that any and all Continental witnesses in connec- 
tion with the Continental Wire Service, that you would have them 
appear voluntarily, and we agreed that we would let Mr. McBride 
fall in that category. 

Mr. Gallagher. That's correct, sir. 

The Chairman. And that is the situation. Also your agreement 
was that the things we called for in the telegram of January 15 would 
serve the purpose of — or the telegrams that we have sent you would 
serve the purpose of a subpena. 

Mr. Gallagher. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And we are here now for the purpose of asking 
for the production of the books and records that are asked for in the 
telegram. 

Mr. Gallagher. Senator, I believe they should be around at the back 
of the hearing room. There were quite a number of them. We had 
them carried over. 

The Chairman. Let's have the telegram read into the record at 
this point, the previous telegram, and also the telegram of January 
15, 1951. The previous telegram was January 9. 

Mr. Gallagher. May I interrupt for just a moment, please? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Gallagher. I believe you probably have been advised of the 
conversation I had with Mr. Klein in Washington and with Mr. 
Burling, who subsequently conferred by telephone with Mr. Halley 
on Monday afternoon, at which time we stated that in the light of the 
revised telegram which had been restricted in nature, that Mr. Mc- 
Bride would be only too glad to appear and produce any books and 
records in that connection. At that time we stated to Mr. Klein that 
Mr. McBride would testify under oath that he is not now nor never 
has been engaged in any illegal business in violation of either State or 
Federal law. 

We, therefore, stated that we requested the same opportunity 
other witnesses throughout the country have had at your committee 
hearings of an executive session prior to any testimony in public 



16 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE! 

with respect to the specific transactions you ask about. It is our 
assertion, and it will be Mr. McBride's statement under oath, that 
there is nothing improper with any of the transactions pertaining to 
which you want some information on. 

Before you read the telegram into the record, I request an oppor- 
tunity for Mr. McBride first to answer under oath with respect to 
those transactions. 

The Chairman-. Mr. Gallagher, the matter of whether hearings are 
in open session or in executive session is, of course, a matter of dis- 
cretion for the committee. 

Mr. Gallagher. I realize that. 

The Chairman. The usual purpose of executive sessions*, and we 
have operated that way for a while, is where we don't know and can't 
find out what the information is. 

In this particular instance, we have considerable documentary 
evidence as to transactions of Mr. McBride. We have had previous 
evidence both in executive session and in open session of the history 
and what has happened about the Continental Press Service. 

Mr. Gallagher. We have no objections now to any questions about 
Continental Press. 

The Chairman. There are_only certain matters with the Continen- 
tal that we do want to ask Mr. McBride about, but we will have our 
hearing a public hearing as we will with the other witnesses here in 
Cleveland, and as we have with many other witnesses in other cities 
for the first time that they have been called. 

We will give Mr. McBride full opportunity to explain any matter 
that we may ask about, and at least at the conclusion of any testi- 
mony he may give, you will be given and Mr. Dempsey will be given 
an opportunity to ask any questions to clarify anything, because we 
only want the facts, and we have no inclination on our part to do 
anybody an injustice. We do not want to do anyone an injustice, and 
you will have ample time and full time for Mr. McBride and anyone 
else to make any explanations about any matters that may be brought 
out here. 

Mr. Gallagher. Senator, I believe I quote you correctly and the 
members of your staff throughout the country. Now, you haven't 
had an open hearing, to my understanding, anywhere but in Tampa 
until you first had an executive session, and you have been quoted in 
the newspapers that the purpose for holding an executive session 
first is so that if any of the information you are asking about does not 
reflect any pertinency or relevancy to the scope of your resolution 
when that evidence has been adduced before you, that you will not 
then bring it out in public because it is not your intention to go into* 
any private affairs that have no bearing on the scope of your 
resolution. 

Now, we feel that given an opportunity in executive session — these 
are just private business transactions that have no relationship to 
crime, organized crime or otherwise, and that there would be no need 
of putting in the record any private business transactions Mr. Mc- 
Bride has had. 

We are merely requesting the same opportunity that they have had 
from Los Angeles to Philadelphia, from Chicago to Miami, where a 
lot of people with bad reputations have been accorded that privilege. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE' 17 

We think that Mr. McBride, with the standing he has in this commun- 
ity, with no criminal record, a man held in respect, should be accorded 
that same opportunity before there is any divulgement of his personal 
matters here. 

Mr. Hallet. Mr. Gallagher, I think you have been laboring under 
a misapprehension as to the purpose of closed hearings. In the first 
place, even in the places where the committee has had closed hearings, 
not all of the witnesses have been examined in a closed hearing. 
There have been some examinations of witnesses in closed hearings, 
and then an open hearing, at which a great many witnesses were called 
who were not heard at the closed hearing. The purpose of hearing 
witnesses at the closed hearings has not been to accord witnesses a 
chance in secret to tell their story, but rather to enable the committee 
to come to the conclusion that it is ready to have an open hearing at 
which it can justly and fairly present its evidence. 

In the case of Mr. McBride, the committee has heard a great deal 
of evidence concerning Mr. Bride's activities in closed hearings, and 
in open hearings, and as a result of the investigations, and for that 
reason the committee has come to the conclusion that it would be a 
waste of time to do the job of hearing Mr. McBride tAvice. I assure 
you. that the investigative job that has been conducted, not only here 
in Cleveland but elsewhere in the country, is such that the committee 
very well knows the information that it is eliciting, the purpose for 
which it is elicited, and there is very little chance that with, as you 
know, the record for fair play that the chairman has established, 
that your client will suffer any injustice. 

Mr. Gallagher. I realize that, and I realize how fair the Senator is, 
but I thought that when your committee first started out you wanted 
to avoid any of the opprobrium which was attached to the House Un- 
American Activities Committee which 

The Chairman. Mr. Gallagher, this is Mr. McBride testifying. 
This is not some other witness testifying as to hearsay or some remote 
suspicion about Mr. McBride. 

Mr. Gallagher. I realize that. 

The Chairman. I want to say to you that at the conclusion of the 
hearing if any witness has said something about Mr. McBride which 
he doesn't talk about in his direct testimony, and that he feels does him 
an injustice, in the case of him or anyone else, we invite that person 
to let us know, and they will be heard if we have to stay over every 
night, or if we have to stay here for a week. 

Well, anyway, we appreciate your statement, Mr. Gallagher, and 
let us get the records in and see what we have. 

Mr. Gallagher. May I have just a moment, Senator ? 

The Chairman. All right. 

Gentlemen of the press, would you take your pictures when the 
witness first comes and starts making a statement? And during the 
time he is testifying, after the first couple of minutes, let's leave off 
the pictures, please. 

Well, gentlemen, we have to proceed. Let's bring in the records and 
see what we have. 

Mr. Dempsey. I will see if I can get them, Senator. 

Mr. Nellis. I would like to list specifically the records which are 
requested. 

Mr. Dempsey. We have the list, Mr. Nellis. 



18 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Let's read off the records specifically, then we will 
see what we have. 

The telegrams will be read into the record at this point. 

Mr. Gallagher. May we wait for just a moment until Mr. Dempsey 
comes back ? 

The Chairman. Mr. who? 

Mr. Gallagher. Mr. Dempsey. He is getting the books and 
records. 

The Chairman. All right. We must get them. 

Mr. Halley. If we have a statement that all the records are here, 
our staff can check them. 

Mr. Nellis. Are they all here? 

Mr. Gallagher. Yes. 

The Chairman. I think we had better get them identified for what 
they are. 

Mr. Nellis. This is a telegram 

The Chairman. Let Mr. Dempsey bring the records in. 

Mr. Nellis. Shall I read the telegram for the record? 

The Chairman. Will you have Mr. Giesey also, Mr. Marshall — 
have him available with all of his records so we won't have this delay 
next time. 

Mr. Nellis. This is a telegram from Cleveland. Ohio, January 15, 
1951, addressed to Walter Gallagher, Esq., 821 Fifteenth Street NAY., 
Washington, D. C. 

Reference appearance of Arthur B. McBride on Wednesday, January 17 at 10 
o'clock, Federal Building, Cleveland, Ohio, per agreement made my telegram 
addressed to you at Ronald Apartments, Sui'fside, Miami Beach, and sent from 
Washington on Monday, January 8 or Tuesday, January !t, is amended as fol- 
lows : With respect to the books and records to be brought to the hearing by 
Mr. McBride they should include all records concerning real estate and other 
transactions with Alfred Polizzi, John Angersola alias King, George Angersola 
alias King or Fred Angersola, alias King, or their wives and/or transactions with 
H. I. Holding Co., a Florida corporation, for the years 1945 through 1949. Books, 
records, and correspondence relating to McBride's purchase of Continental Press 
Service and his subsequent divestment on such ownership. Any business or 
financial dealings with following individuals: Morris Wexler, Martin J. O'Boyle, 
John Fleming, James Dunn, and Anthony Milano. The details of McBride's 
ownership of the yacht Wood Duck. Any records, checks or correspondence 
relating to the purchase by McBride's son, Edward, of Continental Press Service. 
The details of any interest McBride may have for the years 1945 to date in any 
news service or subdistribution of Empire News Service. Please acknowledge 
receipt collect. 

J. L. Nellis, 
Assistant Counsel, Special Committee to Investigate 

Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce. 

The Chairman. All right. Where are the books and records? 

Mr. Gallagher. I am afraid that Dempsey won't recognize Mr. 
Larrimore, who is supposed to be bringing the books. 

The Chairman. Will you go and see if you can recognize him? 

Mr. Gallagher. Yes. 

The Chairman. Mr. McBride, will you stand aside a minute? 

Is Mr. Giesey here yet? 

A Voice. Here he is. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Giesey, will you come in? Just sit 
down right over here, Mr. McBride. 

Mr. McBride. I want to go with Mr. Gallagher, if you don't mind. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. Where is Air. Giesey '. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE' 19 

A Voice. He went to get his records. 

The Chairman. All right, let him bring his records. 

Which is Mr. Giesey ? 

Mr. Giesey. Here ; right here. 

The Chairman. Mr. Giesey, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you will give this committee will be the whole truth and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

TESTIMONY OF ALVIN E. GIESEY, ACCOMPANIED BY TIMOTHY 
McMAHON, ATTORNEY, CLEVELAND, OHIO 

Mr. McMahon. I think I should introduce myself. My name is 
Tim McMahon; I am from Cleveland; I represent Mr. Giesey. 

The Chairman. Glad to meet you. What is your first name? 

Mr. McMahon. Timothy. 

The Chairman. Your address, Mr. McMahon? 

Mr. McMahon. 620 Williamson Building. 

The Chairman. 620 Williams Building? 

Mr. McMahon. Williamson, sir. Attorney at law, Cleveland, Ohio~ 

The Chairman. And you are attorney for Mr. Giesey? 

Mr. McMahon. That's right, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Nellis. 

Air. Nellis. Mr. Giesey, have you produced 

Mr. McMahon. May I say something first ? 

Mr. Nellis. Let me finish my question, please. You produced the 
records called for by the subpena and as a result of our two conversa- 
tions last week ? 

Air. McMahon. Prior to that, Mr. Nellis, I wish for the purpose 
of this record to enter an objection to the lack of a quorum of this 
committee. My understanding is that the committee is composed of 
five members, of which only Senator Kefauver is present. 

Now you may proceed. 

The Chairman. All right. It is in the record, and I should have 
explained that the whole committee by resolution has authorized the 
committee to hold hearings with one member duly designated by the 
chairman. 

Mr. McMahon. Senator, if there is something 

The Chairman. Just a minute. At Cleveland. That is part of 
the record of the committee and the resolution, so it can be clear, of the 
committee, made that observation January 3, 1951, and it is now in- 
corporated in the record, which I will read in order so there can be 
no misunderstanding about it. 

Mr. McMahon. I would like to have it read. 

The Chairman (reading) : 

Special Committee To Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce. 

Resolved, That the chairman of this committee be and hereby is authorized 
at his discretion to appoint one or more subcommittees of one or more Senators, 
of who one member shall be a quorum, for the purpose of taking testimony and 
all other committee acts, to hold hearings at such places and times as the chair- 
man might designate in furtherance of the committee's investigation of organized 
crime in the vicinities of the cities of Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, Mich. 

The chairman, pursuant to this resolution, has designated himself 
and does now designate himself as a committee of one to hold this 
hearing of which we 



20 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McMahon. Is that all, Senator, or it there something of a 
written nature? 

The Chairman. The resolution, of course, is part of the record. 

Mr. McMahon. Very well. On that basis I would like the record 
to show a renewal of my objection to the lack of a quorum. 

The Chairman. Very well, the objection is duly noted. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, Mr. Giesey, may we have the records called for 
by the subpena ? 

Mr. McMahon. Well, let me say this, Mr. Nellis, and so you under- 
stand it, Senator : Last Wednesday and Friday Mr. Giesey and I ap- 
peared in response to subpenas which were purportedly signed by you 
as chairman of this committee. 

The Chairman. Yes, I am sure they have all been signed by me, 
sir. The subpenas are all signed by the chairman of the committee. 

Mr. McMahon. During those 2 clays we gave to Mr. Nellis certain 
records. Now, I would like first before anything further is produced 
that these records that we have given to him previously be introduced 
into the record and if we have any objection to their pertinency, we 
can go forward on that. 

The Chairman. As we go along, the records, what records we have 
will be. 

Mr. McMahon. Will they be given an exhibit number ? 

Mr. Nellis. They will. 

The Chairman. Yes; they will be given an exhibit number. 

Mr. Nellis. Now may we have the books and records, Mr. Giesey ? 

The Chairman. Do you want to specify in regard to them? 

Mr. Nellis. I would rather not read the record provision. I have 
done that two or three times in the case of Mr. Giesey and as long as 
he produces them now, why, that is compliance with the subpena. 

Will you identify them as you produce them for the examiner ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McMahon. Without interrupting you, may I have an objection 
to the production of each and every exhibit as it goes in here ? Will 
the record show that without a repeated objection? Is that satis- 
factory, Senator? 

The Chairman. Well, I think you better object. I don't know what 
you are objecting to. 

Mr. McMahon. I am only trying to expedite your time. 

The Chairman. Just let the record show you are objecting to 
everything. 

Mr. McMahon. Each and every one as it goes in. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. McMahon. Now let's proceed and 
see what we have. We don't want to get into a discussion of them 
in detail. We merely want them here so that when we call you back, 
Mr. Giesey, we can talk with you about them more intelligently. 

Mr. Giesey. Here are my canceled checks for the year 1947. These 
are my own personal canceled checks and pertain to my own personal 
transactions. 

The Chairman. That will be exhibit No. 2. 

Mr. McMahon. There are a number of checks there that have noth- 
ing to do with organized crime or anything else. I am not going to 
turn them over unless they are each marked with an exhibit number. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. McMahon, the objection is overruled. 
The committee will try to use discretion in not bringing out any checks 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21 

that do not have anything to do with our inquiry. The group of 
checks 

Mr. McMahon. Certainly, Senator, if something is not pertinent to 
the inquiry, you have no right to it. 

The Chairman. Yes. We will decide that, Mr. McMahon. You 
sit down. 

Mr. McMahon. You are not going to decide it over my objection? 

The Chairman. We have your objection and it is for the committee 
to decide. 

Mr. McMahon. I didn't expect you to do otherwise, but I am making 
this for the record. 

The Chairman. It is all right. You have objected to everything. 
We will let the record show that you objected. 

Let the checks of 1947, canceled, personal checks, be marked "Exhibit 
No. 2." 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Giesey, let's proceed. 

Mr. Giesey. Here are my canceled checks for the year 1948, which 
consists of my own personal checks in my own personal transactions. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 3. 

Mr. Giesey. Here are my personal checks for the year 1949 which 
pertain to my own personal transactions. 

The Chairman. Let them be marked as exhibit No. 4. 

Mr. Giesey. Here are my personal checks for the year 1950 which 
are my checks on my personal transactions. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 5. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Giesey, have you brought anything else? 

The Chairman. Let him go ahead and identify what he has. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. 

Mr. Giesey. Here is a warranty deed to a piece of property in 
Euclid, Ohio. 

The Chairman. Who is the grantor and grantee ? 

Mr. Giesey. Justine Bartholomew, and Leo C. Bartholomew, also 
known as Justine Bartholmew, with an "o" instead of without it, 
and Leo C. Bartholomew, husband and wife. 

The Chairman. That is exhibit No. 6. 

Mr. Giesey. That is to myself and another party by the name of 
E. K. Swan. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 6. 

Mr. Gie8ey. Here is a warranty deed from one Ethel E. Knapp, 
unmarried, to me, covering a piece of property on Sloane Avenue in 
Lakewood, Ohio. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 7. 

Mr. Giesey. Here is a tax receipt for the first half of 1948, showing 
a piece of property in my name, consisting of a lot on East One 
hundred and forty-second Street. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 8. 

Mr. Giesey. The value of which is $220. 

Here is a tax receipt for the first half of 1948, covering the Sloane 
Avenue property, showing a valuation of $2,940. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 9. 

Mr. Giesey. Here is a tax receipt for the second half of 1949, cov- 
ering the Wickliffe property, showing a valuation of $2,140. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 10. 



22 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McMahon. Now, Senator, before we proceed with these, these 
are the actual stock certificates of what he owns in various companies. 

I don't want the stock certificates in evidence. They are negotiable. 

The Chairman. Well, I will tell you what we will do on those 

Mr. McMahon. Can we take a record of them ? 

The Chairman. We will return them to you at 5 o'clock this after- 
noon, unless you have copies made. Do you have copies which you can 
certify ? 

Mr. McMahon. Well, I want a definite receipt from someone for 
these. They are negotiable instruments. 

The Chairman. All right. We will give you a receipt. As soon 
as you get them in, we will have the committee give you a receipt, and 
we will get them back to you at 5 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. Will 
that be all right ? Because we have got to copy them. 

Mr. McMahon. All right. I want those back. The others I am not 
too concerned about. 

Mr. Giesey. Certificate of stock No. 3, Trailer Homes, Inc., for 331/g 
shares. 

The Chairman. Give the name of the company and the number of 
shares, and I think that will be sufficient identification. 

Mr. Giesey. 331/3 shares, Trailer Homes, Inc., $250 total capital 
stock. 

The Chairman. Now, that is exhibit No. 11, is it not ? 

The Chairman. All right, sir. Next one ? 

Mr. Giesey. Here are some certificates of stock of the United Air- 
craft Products Co. 

Mr. McMahon. Read the numbers off. 

Mr. Giesey. Each one is for 100 shares. 

Certificate Nos. N15539, N 15540, N15541, N15542, N15543, N15177, 
N15178, N15179, N15180, N15181, N15182, N15183, N15184, N15185,. 
N15186, N15187, N15188, N15189, N15190, N15191, N15192, N15193, 
N15194. N1519~, N15196, N15197, N15198, N15199, N15200, N15201, 
N15202, N15203, N15204, N15205, N15206, N15207, N15208, N15209, 
N15210, N15211, N15212, N15213, N15214, N15215, N15216, N15217, 
N15218, N15219, N15220, and N15221. 

The Chairman. They are all in what company? 

Mr. Giesey. United Aircraft Products, Inc., which is listed on the 
New York Curb Exchange. 

The Chairman. They will be marked as exhibit No. 12. 

Mr. Giesey. And dated in December 1950. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Giesey. I don't have the stock certificates on 50 shares of stock 
that I have in the Weiss-Lincoln-Mercury Co. 

The Chairman. In the what? 

Mr. Giesey. Weiss-Lincoln-Mercury Co. 

The Chairman. Can you give us the date of that stock? 

Mr. Giesey. Weiss-Liucoln-Mercury? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. 1949. 

The Chairman. The Weiss-Lincoln-Mercury Co. of what city? 

Mr. Giesey. Sharon, Pa. 

The Chairman. How many shares? 

Mi-. Giesey. There are 100 shares outstanding, of which I have 50 
shares, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 23 

The Chairman. What is the par value? 

Mr. Giesey. $5, or $2.50; I don't know which. There is a total of 
a thousand dollars, as I recall. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. What else ? 

Mr. Giesey. Then I have an accounts receivable - 

The Chairman. Now, where is that stuff ? 

Mr. Giesey. It is in Sharon, Pa. I thought I had it, but it is in an 
attorney's office down there. 

Then I have an account receivable from that company, created in 
1949, approximately $9,000. 

I have an account receivable from 

The Chairman. Are you reading from documents? 

Mr. Giesey. No, it is just a — you can have it. 

The Chairman. Well, where is the account receivable? 

Mr. Giesey. It is in Sharon, Pa. 

The Chairman. What is the lawyer's office? Who is the lawyer? 

Mr. Giesey. The telephone number is Sharon 4444. I will think of 
liis name in a moment, Senator. 

The Chairman. An old lawyer friend of yours? 

Mr. Giesey. No, no ; he isn't, I haven't had much to do with him. 
He represented this company down there. He is a Jewish 
gentleman 

The Chairman. Go ahead. You think of it later. 

Mr. Giesey. Then I have an account receivable from Jerome 
Motor Co. in Galion, Ohio, approximately $6,000. 

The Chairman. Where is that ? 

Mr. Giesey. In Galion, Ohio. 

The Chairman. In whose hands? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, that shows on the books of the company. 

The Chairman. But you have no documentary evidence of it? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Giesey. Then I have a net worth in the partnership of Giesey & 
Sauers, of approximately $12,000. That is an accounting firm. 

There is a list of what I have just read off [proffering paper]. 

The Chairman. Let that list be made exhibit 13. 

(Exhibits No. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13, records of Alvin 
E. Giesey, were returned to the witness after analysis by the 
.committee. ) 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have some more ? 

Mr. Giesey. That attorney's name is Nathan Weltman. 

The Ch airman. Do you have any more stock certificates to 
introduce ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Nellis? 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Giesey, did you ever own any stock in a corpora- 
tion entitled "Detroit Steel Corp."? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; I never did — that is my wife's stock, not 
mine. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, tell us about that. How many shares did you 
own, and during what year ? 

Mr. Giesey. There is 400 shares that I owned, that I bought 
through the firm of Merrill, Lynch 



24 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McMahon. Pierce, Fenner & Beane. 

Mr. Giesey. Pierce, Fenner & Beane. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute, now. The Detroit Steel Corp.? 

Mr. Giesey. It is the Detroit Steel Corp. 

The Chairman. And you bought it for your wife? 

Mr. Geisey. It is in my wife's account. I think I bought a hun- 
dred shares, four different times. 

Mr. Nellis. What year was that, Mr. Giesey ? 

Mr. Giesey. I would say that was probably in 1948, and again in 
1947. 

Mr. Nellis. And do you recall any dividends which either you or 
your wife 

Mr. McMahon. Well now, I object, Senator. I just want to get 
my understanding clear on this. 

Mr. Nellis. One moment. 

The Chairman. Let him make his statement. 

Mr. McMahon. I want to make this objection. I want to get an 
understanding that I have an objection to each and every question 
that is asked, without tying up your time. Because, what pertinency 
what his wife owns, or that he bought some stock from Pierce's office, 
1 don't see what it has to your inquiry. He is an accountant. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. We will note that you have made 
an objection. 

Mr. McMahon. And do I have a continuing objection ? 

The Chairman. And a continuing objection to each question. 

Mr. McMahon. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Giesey, I repeat, did you or your wife ever receive 
any dividends from the stock which you have just described, from 
the Detroit Steel Corp. ? 

Mr. Giesey. We have received every dividend they ever paid ; yes,. 
sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Thank you. That is all I have on that, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you buy it through Merrill, Lynch, Pierce,. 
Fenner & Beane in Cleveland? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And where is that stock? 

Mr. Giesey. The stock is on margin. 

The Chairman. Well, I mean, is it in the possession of Merrill,. 
Lynch ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir; 200 shares of it in possession of Merrill,. 
Lynch. 

The Chairman. What did you pay for it? 

Mr. Giesey. I think I paid around $23 or $24 a share. 

The Chairman. What is it quoted today ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yesterday it was 31%. 

The Chairman. Very well. Proceed. 

Mr. Giesey. I have my personal income-tax return, Alvin E. and 
Gladys K. Giesey, for the year 1940. 

The Chairman. Let me ask one question about the Detroit Steel 
Corp. 

Did you buy any stock for any other members of your family besides 
your wife? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 25- 

The Chairman. All the stock you got in the Detroit Steel Corp., 
did you buy it from Merrill, Lynch? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You own no other interest in it except that which, 
you bought that way ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is absolutely right ; yes. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. 

Mr. Giesey. Income-tax return, Alvin E. and Gladys K. Giesey, the 
year 1940. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 14. 

The Chairman. Let's make each one an exhibit, if you please. 

Mr. Giesey. Income-tax return for the year 1941, Alvin E. and 
Gladys K. Giesey. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 15. 

Mr. Giesey. Income-tax return, the year 1942, Alvin E. and Gladys 
K. Giesey. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 16. 

Mr. Giesey. Income-tax return for the year 1943, Alvin E. and 
Gladys — pardon me. That is just plain Alvin E. 

Does that last one have both names on it ? 

All right. This is income-tax return of Alvin E. Giesey. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 17. 

Mr. Giesey. The year 1944, the income-tax return of Maj. Alvin E. 
Giesey. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 18. 

Mr. Giesey. Income-tax return for the vear 1945, Alvin E. Giesey. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 19. 

Mr. Giesey. Income-tax return for the year 1946, Alvin E. and 
Gladys K. Giesey. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 20. 

Mr. Giesey. Individual income-tax return for the year 1947, Alvin 
E. Giesey. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 21. 

Mr. Giesey. 1948 income-tax return, Alvin E. and Gladys K. Giesev. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 22. 

Mr. Giesey. 1949, income-tax return, Alvin E. and Gladys K. 
Giesey. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 23. 

Mr. Giesey. Here is a record of my personal receipts and checks,, 
the checks which have been previously furnished from January of 
1947 — for the year 1947, for the year 1948, for the year 1949, for the 
year 1950. 

The Chairman. Would the book be made exhibit No. 24 ? 

(Exhibits No. 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24, tax 
records of Alvin E. Giesey were returned to witness after analysis by 
the committee.) 

Mr. McMahon. Senator, I just discussed this before with Mr. Nellis, 
and I think I can save some time. 

Mr. Nellis. May I ask a question ? Do you recall the stenotypist's- 
transcript of your first meeting with me at which we listed on a record^ 
which you have in your possession, the items contained in this? 

Mr. McMahon. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. If we stipulate that that record is what we have, will 
you be satisfied? Can we incorporate it into this record to save us. 
the time ? 



26 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McMahon. I don't have it written. It will only take me pos- 
sibly 10 minutes to read this, and if you will check them with the 
documents ? 

Mr. Nellis. I will. 

Mr. McMahon. May we stipulate that on Wednesday, January 10, 
and Friday, January 12, pursuant to the subpenas issued in this matter, 
the following records were turned over to Mr. Nellis, assistant counsel 
for the committee : 

The partnership-tax returns of the firm of Giesey & Sauers, Account- 
ants, for the years 1915 through 1919 ; the ledger sheets for the years 
1945 through 1950 showing the accounting fees received by Mr. Giesey 
from the Beverly Hills Country Club, the Lookout Club, the Church 
Motors, the Pettibone Club, the Union Enterprise Co., and the Country 
Club Enterprise; the 1950 declarations of estimated income tax for 
the following: 

Morris and Gizella Kleinman; Mr. B. and T. C. Dalitz; William 
and Morris Schwartz; Samuel and Louis Tucker; Louis and Blanche 
Rothkopf; the 1949 return of the 2515 Kemper Co.; and the social- 
security and unemployment files for the Chesapeake Catering Co. for 
the years 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, and 1949 ; the same social-security 
and unemployment-file records for the Union Enterprise Co. for the 
years 1947, 1948, and three-quarters of the year 1950 ; the same type 
of records for the Pettibone Club for the years 1946, 1947, 1948, 1950 ; 
and the same social-security and unemployment -file records for the 
years 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, and 1950. 

May we so stipulate, Mr. Nellis ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. McMahon. May we further stipulate that each and every one 
of those exhibits that I read will be given a definite exhibit number 
and incorporated into this record ? 

The Chairman. Mr. Nellis said that we have such records and we 
can stipulate that they can be given consecutive exhibit numbers and 
incorporated in this record. 

Mr. McMahon. That is from 25 on? 

The Chairman. From 25 on ; yes. 

(The documents referred to were returned to witness after anlysis 
by the committee.) 

Mr. McMahon. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Giesey, you have brought everything in your pos- 
session relating to Louis Rothkopf alias Rhocly? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

The Chairman. First ask if he has brought anything about each 
one of these, and if he has brought all the records. 

Mr. Nellis. Oh, all right. I will withdraw the question and re- 
frame it in the following manner: 

Have you brought any records concerning Louis Rothkopf alias 
Rhody? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't recall all the records I brought you, Mr. Nellis, 
but you just read them off. They pertain to Mr. Rothkopf, they are 
in there. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought everything pertaining to him, So 
far as you know? 

Mr. Gikskv. All the records that I had any control over; yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought any relating to Morris Kleinman? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 27 

Mr. Gieset. I think there are some records mentioned of Morris 
Kleinman. 

Mr. Nellis. You have brought all relating to Morris Kleinman? 

Mr. Giesey. All the records that I have any control over. 

Mr. Nellis. Have yon brought any relating to Samuel Tucker? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes ; I think I did. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought all relating to him ? 

Mr. Giesey. All that I had any control over. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought any relating to Moe Dalitz alias 
Davis? 

Mr. Giesey. Is his name mentioned on there ? 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking you. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, let me refer back to see what we just read off 
there. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You have brought all records pertaining to him ? 

Mr. Giesey. All that I have any control over. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought any relating to Charles Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't recall bringing anything on Charles Polizzi; 
no, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any on Charles Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you bring any records concerning Alfred Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I have had no records of Alfred Polizzi. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records pertaining to Frank Milano ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I don't even know Frank Milano. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records on Frank Milano ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. 

Mr. Nellis. The same question as to Anthony Milano ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I never did. 

Mr. Nellis. The same as to Thomas J. McGinty. Did you bring 
any relating to Thomas J. McGinty ? 

Mr. Giesey. Apparently there is nothing. 

Mr. Nellis. You brought no records on Thomas J. McGinty? 

Mr. Giesey. Nothing on Thomas McGinty. 

Mr. Nellis. You have none? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought any records with respect to Cor- 
nelius Jones ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir, I never had any. 

Mr. Nellis. James Licavoli. 

Mr. Giesey. I don't know Mr. Licavoli and I have never had any. 

Mr. Nellis. Michael Farah ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't know Michael Farah so I wouldn't have any 
records. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever done any tax work or work of any kind 
professionally for the Detroit Steel Corp. ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records of the Detroit Steel Corp. ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Aside from the shares of the stock held by you? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Nellis. That is all at this time, Mr. Chairman. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 3 



28 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. That is all now, Mr. Giesey, and you will not be 
called back today, but you understand — we may reach you later today,, 
but we will call you at your office. 

Mr. McMahon. If you want him, Senator, Mr. Nellis knows where 
my office is. He will be available. 

The Chairman. You understand you remain under subpena and 
subject to further call? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Giesey. 

Mr. Giesey. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Mr. McBride. Will you ask Mr. McBride to come 
back. 

Mr. McBride, will you state your full name. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR B. McBRIDE, CLEVELAND, OHIO, 
ACCOMPANIED BY WALTER GALLAGHER AND WILLIAM DEMP- 
SEY, ATTORNEYS, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

Mr. McBride. Arthur B. McBride. 

Mr. Nellis. Your residence ? 

Mr. McBride. 17005 Greenwood Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any other residence ? 

Mr. McBride. No, not at present. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought the records with respect to all rec- 
ords concerning real estate and other transactions with Alfred Polizzi? 

Mr. McBride. I think they are here. 

Mr. Nellis. Can we have them out and have them identified? 

The Chairman. These records will be considered separately and 
will be marked "Exhibit No. 26." 

(The papers identified were thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 26, and were later returned to the witness. ) 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought all of them now, sir? 

Mr. McBride. I think so, all that I have. 

Mr. Dempsey. I think this goes along with that other there. Here 
are still more. 

Mr. Nellis. Let's get all of the Polizzi papers together, Mr. Demp- 
sey. Is that all on Polizzi ? 

Mr. Dempsey. I think it is ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Let's make sure before we go on with the next item. 

Mr. Dempsey. I believe that is all there is. 

Mr. Halley. They are Mr. McBride's records, he is the witness. 
Can't he tell us ? He sits back there and lets you do it. 

Mr. Dempsey. Take a look at them. 

Mr. McBride. I have a lot of records, Mr. Halley. 

The Chairman. All right. Go ahead, Mr. Neliis. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that all of the ones on Alfred Polizzi? May I have 
an answer to that, Mr. McBride? 

Will the reporter read the question ? 

(Question read.) 

Mr. McBride. I think so. 

Mr. Nellis. You aren't sure? 

Mr. McBride. All that I have. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 29 

The Chairman. The question is, do they cover all the transactions 
you ever had with Mr. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Dempsey. Senator, I believe they are all the records that Mr. 
McBride has, that were called for by the telegram, that we have been 
able to find. 

The Chairman. Proceed to the next. 

Mr. Nellis. Now will you produce all records concerning real estate 
and other transactions with John Angersola, alias King? 

Mr. Gallagher. We don't have any. 

Mr. McBride. I don't have any. 

Mr. Nellis. You have no records on that ? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records? 

Mr. Gallagher. On John King? None. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you bring any records on John King? 

Mr. Gallagher. You can't bring them if you don't have them. 

The Chairman. Well, let's ask a question. Have you had any 
transactions of any sort with this man we talk about? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then we will get into that later. Proceed. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records concerning real estate and 
other transactions with Fred Angersola, alias King ? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Gallagher. When you say other transactions, Mr. McBride 
stated he sold him a boat at one time. 

Mr. Nellis. That is a record. I mean, there should be a record. 

Mr. McBride. I thought this was a real-estate transaction. 

Mr. Nellis. I said real-estate transactions and other transactions. 

Mr. Dempsey. And Mr. Nellis, your telegram calls for records from 
1945 to 1949. There are no records of Mr. King or any transactions 
of any kind with him during that period. In another part of your 
telegram you ask about the yacht Wood Duck. That was sold to Mr. 
King. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. Will you produce that at the time I ask you about 
it? 

Mr. Dempsey. As far as I know, there is no record on it. We have 
no record. 

Mr. Gallagher. The boat was sold in 1939 or so. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records of any transactions with Fred 
Angersola, alias King? 

Mr. McBride. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have any transactions with him? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records of real estate or other trans- 
actions with George Angersola, alias King? 

Mr. McBride. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have any transactions with him? 

Mr. McBride. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, did you have any transactions? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know of any. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any books, records, and correspondence 
relating to your purchase of Continental Press Service? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. May I have those identified, please? 



30 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gallagher. I might clarify that statement, Mr. Nellis, for 
the record, that Continental Press Service was not purchased. The 
document that Mr. McBride means is that he has a document dealing 
with Mr. James Ragen's acquisition of Continental Press from Mr. 
McBride. Continental Press was not purchased, it was established by 
Mr. McBride. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

The Chairman. If you have anything whatever, let's keep it aside. 

Mr. Demfsey. In that connection, there are a great many agree- 
ments in connection with Continental Press. I think all of them have 
been in the committee's hands before but we brought them all over 
again, not knowing which ones you might want. 

Mr. McBride. I think you are familiar with them all, Mr. Halley, 
are you not ? You have been through them. 

The Chairman. Let's have them all. They will be marked as "Ex- 
hibit No. 27." —--;._. 

(The papers identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 27, and were later returned to the witness.) 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records with respect to your divest- 
ment of the ownership which you had in Continental Press ? 

Mr. Dempsey. They are all included. 

Mr. Nellis. Are they included there? 

Mr. Dempsey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have books and records of any business or 
financial dealing with Morris "Mushy" Wexler, Mr. McBride? 
. Mr. Gallagher. I don't have any records on him. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Gallagher, would you please allow the witness to 
testify ? 

Mr. Gallagher. All right. 

Mr. Nellis. Thank you. Do you have any ? 

Mr. McBride. No, I have not. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever had any ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You have no books or records of those transactions? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any books or records concerning any 
business or financial dealings with Martin J. O'Boyle? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever have any financial transactions 

Mr. McBride. — "Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. With Martin J. O'Boyle? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any books or records concerning your 
financial dealings or transactions with John Fleming? 

Mr. Dempsey. Yes, we have them here. 

Mr. Nellis. May they be introduced ? 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 28 has to do with John Fleming, is 
that correct ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

(The papers identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exl libit No. 28, and were later returned to the witness.) 

Mr. Nellis. Are those all of the records in your possession with 
respect to Mr. Fleming, Mr. McBride ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any books or records ocncerning any 
business or financial transactions with James Dunn? 
Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any financial transactions with James 
Dunn? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any books or records concerning any 
financial transactions or other dealings with Anthony Milano? . 
Mr. McBride. I have no records. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any transactions of that nature with 
Anthony Milano? 

Mr. McBride. I think I have. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you produce the records concerning the details 
of your ownership of the yacht Wood Duck? 
Mr. McBride. I have none. 
Mr. Nellis. You have no records? 
Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you once own the Wood Duck? 
Mr. McBride. I did; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any record or checks or correspondence 
relating to the purchase by your son Edward of Continental Press 
Service ? Is that included in the previous entry ? 
Mr. Gallagher. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have the details of any interest you may have 
for the years 1945 to date in any news service or distributor of news 
service ? 

Mr. McBride. I have none. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any records of any financial transactions 
with respect to a distributor located in the State of Ohio? 
Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any transactions with such a distributor? 
Mr. McBride. That is going back to Morris Wexler, is it not? Is 
that who you mean ? 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking you. Do you have any ? 
Mr. McBride. No. 
The Chairman. Is that all ? 
Mr. Nellis. That is all. 

The Chairman. Mr. McBride, that is all for the present and if 
we can be advised where Mr. Gallagher and Mr. Dempsey will be, 
we will get in touch with you when we want you back. 

Mr. McBride. Thank you. Senator. Thank you, gentlemen. 
The Chairman. And it will probably be some time this afternoon 
or, if not this afternoon, in the morning. That is all. 
Mr. McBride. Thank you, gentlemen. 

Mr. Dempsey. Senator, I may say that if any of the members of 
the staff have any trouble going through the records, we would be 
glad to assist them to the best of our ability in finding any specific 
thing they may be looking for. 

Mr. Nellis. Thank you very much, Mr. Dempsey, I appreciate that. 

Mr. McBride. I want to make one statement. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Dempsey. 

All right, have a seat. 

Mr. McBride. I want to make one statement before I leave. 

The Chairman. Have a seat. 



32 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. I never have been engaged in any criminal activity 
of any kind. 

The Chairman. All right. We will let you know when we want 
you back, Mr. McBride. 

Our next witness this afternoon will be Mr. Sutton. 

The Committee will stand in recess until 15 minutes of 2. 

(Thereupon, at 12 : 20 p. m., a recess was taken until 1 : 45 p. m., this 
day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

I believe that Mr. Alvin G. Sutton, the Director of Public Safety 
of Cleveland, Ohio, is our next witness. 

Mr. Sutton, will you come around ? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will 
be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Sutton. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Nellis. 

TESTIMONY OF ALVIN G. SUTTON, DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC SAFETY, 

CLEVELAND, OHIO 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Sutton, do you have a statement prepared for this 
committee ? 

Mr. Sutton. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you prefer not to be interrupted during the 
course of it, or would you mind interruptions during the course of 
your statement ? 

Mr. Sutton. I would not mind being interrupted during the course 
of the statement. 

Mr. Nellis. Proceed, please. 

Mr. Sutton. Mr. Senator, the city of Cleveland prior to 1920 was 
a growing metropolis with a cosmopolitan population just under 
800,000 people in a varied industrial pattern. It was a steel town, a 
shipping town, and a leader in varied manufacturing lines. Eighty 
percent of its people as late as the thirties was foreign-born or first 
generation American. 

Gang activities and crime were not organized. From the day the 
National Prohibition Act was enacted January 16, 1920, until its 
repeal December 5, 1933, Cleveland went through an era of mob 
violence, gang slayings, hijacking, bootlegging, and racket wars. 

Out of the prohibition period came the same kind of city-wide and 
regional and even interstate gang organizations that plagued other 
major cities. Rival gangs fought for supremacy. They hijacked 
each other's liquor loads. Murder became a standard tool for all the 
illegal gangs as they fought for territories, for sources of supply, 
trucks, boats that ran the liquor blockade on the Lakes, and for 
the upper hand among hoodlums, gunmen, drivers, and gangsters. 

At the top of Cleveland's bootleggers were Morris Kleinman, Lou 
Rothkopf, Moe Dalitz, Sam Tucker, and Maxie Diamond. They were 
at the helm of the board of directors. They had their suppliers of 
Canadian whisky, and their salesmen and thugs to distribute con- 
traband and to reap the harvest of money. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 33 

Their employees were the O'Boyles, "Soldier," and the late Marty 
O'Boyle; Solly Hart; the late Morrie Komisarow, the late Ben Nadel ; 
Harry Brenner, George Angersola, who was also known as George 
King. 

Ruthless beatings, unsolved murders and shakedowns, threats and 
bribery came to this community as a result of gangsters' rise to power. 

Kleinman and others of his ilk weathered the 13 years of warfare. 
Only the United States Government income-tax investigators were 
able to bring him down. 

Mr. Nellis. Director Sutton, may I ask a question at that point? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You are referring to the names of these people who 
are the same persons that are missing, as far as this committee is 
concerned ; is that right ? 

Mr. Sutton. That is correct. Lou Rothkopf, Morris Kleinman, 
Sam Tucker, and Moe Dalitz, also known as Moe Davis. 

Mr. Nellis. And the chairman of this committee announced yes- 
terday that these people have been evading these subpenas. 

Mr. Sutton. That is correct. The entire police department has 
been looking for these people in the city of Cleveland and in the 
suburbs. I know that personally. 

Kleinman, Dalitz, Rothkopf , and others on their roster of hoodlums 
had escaped punishment until then, although questioned many times 
by authorities. 

A dozen other killings were strung out along the road to riches, 
which took Kleinman up to a gross income in 1929 of approximately 
$931,000. 

Many of those killed along that road had been Kleinman's rivals. 
And some were his allies in the old bootleg war. 

Kleinman dominated his field. His influence was so great that at 
one time he was credited with dividing the town, telling the whole- 
salers what their territories and boundaries were, and making them 
stay within them. 

The inner circle of this disciplined mob, when repeal took away 
their source of money — bootleg whisky — went into big gambling 
operations, as they did in so many other cities. They set up big crap 
games, casinos, and bookie joints, starting in the heart of the city. 

The Miller boys — "Game Boy," Dave, and "Elky," John Angersola, 
Tommy McGinty, John Croft, and Lester Wilson and a new set of 
underlings joined in the new field of the high command. 

Now they plundered the purses of the citizens via the crap table 
and the horse bet, instead of the hip flask of the prohibition era. 
Their places in the heart of the city on Prospect Avenue, at Playhouse 
Square and on West Twenty-fifth Street did not stay long, for a 
series of clean government administrations drove them out to the more 
tolerant suburbs— Maple Heights, Newburgh Heights, and farther 
east. 

When Governor Lausche was judge, Eliot Ness, safety director, and 
Frank T. Cullitan, county prosecutor, these strict enforcement offi- 
cials cracked down on the gamblers and made even the suburbs within 
Cuyahoga County too hot for the gambling houses. 

Mayor Burke was assistant county prosecutor at that time. He 
helped to put out of business the Harvard Club and Thomas Club. 



34 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

These moves, and the coming of Sheriff Joe Sweeney to office in the 
early 1940's, drove the gamblers out into the rural neighborhoods. 
The whole State became uncomfortable when Frank Lausche became 
Governor. To hedge against Governor Lausche's State-wide clean-up, 
they bought into the gambling casinos in liberal-minded Newport 
and Covington, Ky., and their surrounding counties, Kenton and 
Campbell. There they used local gamblers and a few of their lieu- 
tenants as fronts. There again they could enjoy official toleration in 
a place close to a rich metropolis. There again they could rake in 
their big slice of the money from a big center of industry and trade. 
Now they have gone out to Las Vegas to enjoy some of the juicy profits 
that can be brought in from rich Los Angeles, a short air hop away. 

Back in Cleveland, the old sailors, truckers, and peddlers, left behind 
by their old bosses, looked around for a new source of illegal income. 
They wanted to find something that would pay good wages again in 
return for threats, sluggings, and bribery. 

The old mob fastened itself on policy and clearinghouse operators. 
The late "Bon-Bon" Alegretti came here from Chicago to help in 
setting up the system. 

Clearinghouses games were first introduced here in 1923 by Harry 
"Pony Boy" Weinzimmer. This numbers game was an import from 
New York. Policy was played on plantations and in cities of the 
South such as Memphis, Mobile, and New Orleans. When Cleveland 
became one of the major centers for building war goods for the First 
World War, thousands of colored workers were brought here. Policy 
came along and the colored people kept this to themselves until prohi- 
bition ended. 

That was when the "muscle men" of the old bootleg days moved in : 
George Angersola, Angelo Sciria, Angelo Lonardo, Vincent Dylinski, 
Chuck Polizzi, Shondor Birns, John DeMarco, and others applied to 
numbers the methods they had used in the liquor traffic. 

Again there were gang-style murders. Still unsolved are the mur- 
ders of Clarence Murphy, James McDonald, Willie Wiggins, Fred 
Capello, and others. There were shootings and sluggings. By the 
time the city had begun to get a thorough taste of these business 
methods, it was the old sailors and truckers, and the peddlers from 
the moonshine mobs who held control of all the numbers rackets. 

A Federal investigator, Eliot Ness, was chosen as safety director 
by Mayor Harold Burton, now a United States Supreme Court Jus- 
tice. Ness began in 1938 an investigation that ended in 1942, with 23 
persons indicted for extortion. County Prosecutor Cullitan fought 
these cases and won convictions against 13 and a guilty plea from a 
fourteenth. Three cases were nolled. Two of the cases nolled were 
lost because the defendants.stayed away until essential witnesses were 
no longer available. These were the cases of Nick Satulla and Vince 
Dylinski. 

Among those convicted were George Angersola, Angelo Lonardo, 
heir to a corn-sugar fortune, Milton Rockman, and Angelo Sciria, 
the boss of the gang, who gave up after a long hide-out in Mexico. 

Others acquitted were Shondor Birns, Chuck Polizzi, John Anger- 
sola, and Frank Hoge, a while numbers operator who cooperated with 
flic gang. 

Ness uncovered also, in his terms under Mayors Burton, Blyihin, 
and Lausche, some bribe-taking policemen. One of the officers who 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 35 

helped Director Ness to investigate the numbers mess was Lt. Ernest 
Molnar. Molnar learned that policy and clearinghouse were not just 
penny games but a big-scale racket worth millions to anyone who could 
get control of it. 

Molnar knew that no established racket can operate without an 
agreement with some local law enforcement agency. He saw how he 
could take over control of numbers and get the money rolling his 
way, now that Ness and Cullitan had smashed up the gang and broken 
its hold on the games. He moved on to the throne. He was recently 
packed off to the Ohio State Penitentiary, convicted of bribe-taking. 

Mr. Nellis. Director, may I interrupt at that point? Did you 
have anything to do with that investigation which led to Lieutenant 
Molnar's conviction ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you tell us about that, please? Or would you 
rather finish your statement at tins time? 

Mr. Sutton. I would like to finish the statement, please. 

Mr. Nellis. Please proceed. 

Mr. Sutton. Neither houses of prostitution nor gambling spots, or 
any racket, including numbers, can carry on full force without pay- 
offs going to some one or more of the officials charged with the duty 
of enforcing the law — whether police, sheriffs, prosecutor, or other 
agents of the public. 

Policy and clearinghouse games still exist here, but there is con- 
tinuous, equal, and fair enforcement of laws against these rackets, and 
the violations are being kept to a minimum. The same is true of 
bookmaking. The same is true of prostitution. I don't believe these 
evils can be completely eradicated, but they can be held down and 
kept from becoming big, well organized, and entrenched. 

I am proud to point out that the trend of crime in Cleveland has 
been downward. The Cleveland Police Department is one of the 
finest in the country. I know that there are still a certain few men 
that are willing to tarnish their badges by tolerating these vices — for 
a price. However, they make up scarcely 1 percent of our police 
force. For every one who will take money, there are 100 who will 
take a bullet. 

Cleveland, I believe, can boast that it has stamped out almost all 
of the vestiges of the old gunmen and their dirty houses of ill fame 
and their bootlegging and their shake-down games. Many of the old 
gangsters have left to find easier pickings in cities which have looser 
ideas of law enforcement. 

Mickey Cohen is a recent example. He was a moderately successful 
boxer here. Another old fighter, Morris Kleinman, who twice won 
national amateur boxing titles, liked Mickey. Mickey went along 
on a faked holdup with a restaurant cashier and a more experienced 
hoodlum. He got caught, convicted of embezzlement, and was put 
on probation. The court probation officers kept a watch on him. He 
finally headed west. There Kleinman and Lou Rothkopf and old 
friends of theirs have helped Mickey to rise to heights of notoriety, at 
least. 

Other former crooks still make their homes here and put their 
money in legitimate enterprises here as well as in other States. Many 
have put on clean collars and silk gloves, and they carry on more 
smoothly the business of grabbing dollars wherever they can — wheth- 



36 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

er hard earned by hard-working citizens or illegally won by less 
powerful racket men. 

Through Mickey Cohen, Kleinman, Dalitz, and Rhody, the Anger- 
sola brothers and their pals, the phrase "the Cleveland Gang" is 
known from coast to coast and from the Great Lakes to the Gulf. It 
gives a false impression, as if Cleveland's sidewarks were crowded with 
armed killers. 

Actually, it was the constant pressure of strong law enforcement 
that drove these men away and brought them to the attention of far- 
away cities. Had Cleveland been a city of pantywaist police work, the 
Cleveland Gang would have stayed in Cleveland. 

Racketeers may still make their headquarters here, but they have 
to set up shop somewhere else if they are going to make any money. 

That is just what they are doing. From a bunch of down-at-the-heel 
roughnecks, just out of prison or just out of court and with their 
shake-down system broken up, a handful of these men have in a few 
years become rich. We want to know why, and with whose help. 
Mickey Cohen is one of these. The Angersolas, the Polizzis, and many 
more were not at all prosperous a few years ago. They are all launched 
in big business. We want to trace back the source of their wealth and 
power. 

It was exactly because of honest police work that these hoodlums 
had to move out into interstate operations. We are in the happy 
situation of having driven them out, but their nefarious plans are still 
hatched here. In this respect we are unique. We are determined to 
destroy their illegal empires even though they are no longer permitted 
to operate within our city or county. 

That is all, Senator. 

The Chairman. A very splendid statement, Mr. Sutton. 

All right, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Director, you referred during the course of your statement to the 
case of one Lt. Harry Molnar, is that correct? 

Mr. Sutton. Ernest Molnar. 

Mr. Nellis. Ernest Molnar. You made reference to the fact that 
he was convicted of corruption in connection with activities in the 
numbers racket, is that right ? 

Mr. Sutton. That's right ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you please tell us a little bit about your back- 
ground and the facts, if they are that, concerning your investigation 
of that case ? 

Mr. Sutton. Well, rumors had been going around Cleveland in law- 
enforcement circles that Lieutenant Molnar was connected in the clear- 
inghouse and policy business. And based on those rumors, when I 
left the FBI and came to work at city hall, an investigation was 
started. As a result of the investigation, Lieutenant Molnar was con- 
victed of giving police protection to a certain few policy operators. 

The way he operated was, he had always a large number of arrests 
but he was driving out a certain few and driving business to others, 
purposely to build up the income of certain operators. Yet he would 
have a number of arrests and would be doing a fine job as far as the 
number of arrests but it wasn't even, equal. Law enforcement must 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 37 

Mr. Nellis. And lie was convicted on the basis of that evidence and 
other evidence connecting him financially with these racketeers? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Sutton, you impress me as being a very honest 
and hard working and serious director of public safety here. Will 
you tell us something about your qualifications? How did you get 
into this job, anyway? 

Mr. Sutton. I was with the FBI for a little over 7 years, and I was 
contacted by the mayor to go down to city hall, and he didn't ask me 
whether I was a Democrat or Republican, and he said that he was 
interested in having good law enforcement and he was concerned about 
the rumor on this Lieutenant Molnar. 

He said, "Al, I want you to do a good job. We have ability in our 
police department." 

I have been down there ever since. 

The Chairman. How long has that been ? 

Mr. Sutton. Three years. 

The Chairman. You received your training in the FBI, largely ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you have gone after the matter vigorously 
ever since you have been appointed ? 

Mr. Sutton. I believe so ; yes. 

The Chairman. You said that back in the rough days that these 
people engaged in extortion of various kinds. What kind of extor- 
tion was it ? 

Mr. Sutton. Intimidation. In other words, as soon as the prohibi- 
tion era went out, Angelo Sciria and these individuals, Angelo 
Lonardo and Chuck Polizzi, and so forth, they would go around to the 
various policy operators and clearinghouse operators and intimidate 
them. They would come in with guns right in their hands out clear. 
They would go into the policy houses and say, "Look, from now on 
you are paying us $100 a week, or $200 a week," and, therefore, they 
controlled all the various clearinghouse operators and policy operators 
by that force and that threat. 

The Chairman. How about intimidation of legitimate businesses 
and businessmen ? Have you found any of that ? 

Mr. Sutton. No, I have not. 

The Chairman. You said that the Cleveland Police Department 
is one of the finest in the country, and from what I have heard and 
what I know up to this point, I am willing to agree with you. You 
certainly have some very fine officers there. 

You said that you had ferreted out, you thought, everybody who 
would take money, but there might still be 1 percent who would take 
money rather than a bullet. Why can't you get rid of that 1 percent? 
Or do you know who they are ? 

Mr. Sutton. I know who some would be of that 1 percent, yes, but 
before I can move in to a grand jury I must have my case made, and 
that takes long periods of time of investigation. In other words, 
like the Molnar investigation took a year just on that one individual. 

The Chairman. Anyway, you have your idea of who these derelict 
ones are ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes. Not all of them. 

The Chairman. Whenever you can get your case ready 

Mr. Suiton. They will go right to the grand jury. 



38 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. That is a very fearless and splendid attitude to 
take, Director Sutton. 

Mr. Sutton. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Director, you have talked about a lot of people, 
and they would seem to be the same fellows that we and the Sergeant 
at Arms of the Senate have been trying to serve subpenas on. Sup- 
pose we go over the list and see who these fellows are and which ones 
reside in Cleveland. 

Here is John Angersola alias King. He is one of the operators we 
have talked about, isn't he ? 

Mr. Sutton. That is Florida. He formerly was here in Cleveland. 

The Chairman. Now he lives in Miami Beach? 

Mr.- Sutton. That is correct. 

The Chairman. So he has gone to Miami. And then you have got 
George Angersola alias King. Where has he gone ? 

Mr. Sutton. George is in Florida. Oh, he does spend a month 
or two up here in Cleveland. 

Mr. Nellis. He does have a home here, does he not ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes. His sister's home, East Thirty-eighth Street, 
I think it is. 

The Chairman. Are you aware of the fact that these King boys 
have also been in the hotel business in Florida with fellows from a 
good many other States, and casino businesses with people from other 
States ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Can our Florida report — I suppose you have seen 
the interim report on Florida; you see the connection between the 
gambling operations and also the hotel operations where your people 
and some people from Detroit, and New York, Chicago, and other 
places have gotten together. You have seen that, haven't you? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes. 

The Chairman. How about Moe Dalitz ? Where does he live ? 

Mr. Sutton. His home is in Detroit. However, he does spend time 
here in Cleveland because he has a linen company here in town and 
he also has two or three in Detroit. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't he originally from Cleveland, Director Sutton? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes, sir; but Detroit and Cleveland, he has been 
spending his time between those two cities for the last 30 years. 

The Chairman. Is this a big linen company that he has? 

Mr. Sutton. The Pioneer Linen Co. 

The Chairman. Is he the sole owner ? 

Mr. Sutton. No. He is in with — I may stand corrected — Maschke. 

The Chairman. Who is he ? 

Mr. Sutton. He is the son of the late GOP head of Cleveland. 
Maurice Maschke, I believe the name was. 

The Chairman. Does Dalitz have a substantial criminal record? 

Mr. Sutton. No. There is something about Moe Dalitz or Moe 
Davis. As far as I know, he has never been arrested. He was sought 
once in Buffalo, N. Y., on a bootleg charge, but I do not know the 
outcome of it. 

The Chairman. How about Samuel T. Haas? 

Mr. Sutton. He is a Clevelander, and he left just a few days before 
your committee got here, or the day your committee arrived. 

The Chairman. What does he do? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 39 

Mr. Sutton. He is an attorney. Never practices in a courtroom, 
though. You will never see him in a courtroom. 

The Chairman. Do you know where he went to ? 

Mr. Sutton. No. Just rumors, Senator. Jamaica is one spot that 
a very close friend of his advised us. 

The Chairman. Why would he be leaving town ? 

Mr. Sutton. I don't think he would like to face the committee. I 
think there are too many questions that could come before him and he 
would like to prefer people to suspect that he is connected with certain 
people rather than to know. 

The Chairman. How about Morris Kleinman? 

Mr. Sutton. Morris Kleinman is another individual. He has got 
one conviction. The United States Government, I believe, in 1931, 
for income tax. 

He is an individual here in town that is looked up to by a good many 
people that are up in the upper part of — we will say the social stand- 
ing in the community. He is an individual that will deny that he is 
connected with any gambling establishments, and so forth, and frowns 
on any publicity that might come his way. Yet he brought it on him- 
self by his nefarious jobs that he has been in since 1924. 

The Chairman. What are these nefarious jobs, do you know? 

Mr. Sutton. Well, he was the king of the bootleggers in the north- 
ern district of Ohio. When he was caught by Uncle Sam in 1931, in 
trying to explain his income, he would state that he lost this boat that 
was worth $30,000, and he had $100,000 worth of whisky on it. That 
is a loss. And I believe there were about 13 or 14 losses that he had 
like that, and that is what forced him to show his hand as the king of 
bootleggers. 

The Chairman. You don't mean that 1 year he made nine-hundred- 
and-thirty-odd-thousand dollars ? 

Mr. Sutton. That is correct. 1929. 

The Chairman. Where else did he operate besides here? 

Mr. Sutton. He operates in Kentucky with Moe Dalitz and Sammy 
Tucker. 

The Chairman. Operates what in Kentucky ? 

Mr. Sutton. Gambling casinos, the Lookout House, and a few 
others there. He also operates the Desert Inn out there in Las Vegas 
with Sammy Tucker and Moe Dalitz and Rothkopf and also Tommy 
McGinty. 

The Chairman. Does Kleinman operate in Florida, do you know? 

Mr. Sutton. I do not know. 

The Chairman. Where is Mr. Kleinman ? 

Mr. Sutton. Mr. Kleinman is on the duck. 

The Chairman. Has the police department been looking for him ? 

Mr. Sutton. Diligently. Not only that, the sheriff's office has been 
cooperating, and there is an alarm out there. It has been out for about 
three weeks, looking for Morris Kleinman. 

He fled just before your committee came in town, also. 

The Chairman. Do you know where he went ? 

Mr. Sutton. Well, the rumors are that he is in a lodge up in Nevada 
along with his partner Louis Rothkopf, Lou Rhody. 

The Chairman. That is Louis Rothkopf. What does he do ? Does 
he live here ? 



40 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Sutton. He lives just outside of Cleveland — outside of Cuya- 
hoga County. 

The Chairman. What is his operation ? 

Mr. Sutton. His operation ? He is a gambler. He is a partner of 
Morris Kleinman in those gambling casinos in Kentucky. Also re- 
ported to be in various legitimate businesses such as, say, black- 
market steel companies ; we will call them legitimate. 

He is also involved in the Desert Inn. He is a very close friend of 
Mickey Cohen, and a very strong supporter of Mickey Cohen. 

The Chairman. What are the so-called legitimate businesses that 
you know of your own knowledge that he is in ? 

Mr. Sutton. Senator, at the moment I cannot answer that question. 
I can't recall. 

The Chairman. Is he with Kleinman and Davis down in the Ken- 
tucky places? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes ; he is. 

The Chairman. Have you tried to find him around here ? 

Mr. Sutton. We have made diligent search for him. We have 
been out to his home practically every day in the last 3 or 4 weeks. 
He was in town the day your committee was here. 

The Chairman. The day Mr. Nellis arrived ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes. 

The Chairman. How about Morris Wexler ? What does he do ? 

Mr. Sutton. Mushy Wexler runs the Theatrical Grill. It is located 
on Vincent Avenue here. 

He is head of the Empire News Service, which receives its infor- 
mation from the Continental Press. His information that he receives 
from the Continental Press is in turn sold to certain legitimate peo- 
ple, but mostly to bookmakers. 

We have made diligent searches for Mushy Wexler, also. Negative 
results. 

The Chairman. Well, does he have a criminal record ; do you know ? 

Mr. Sutton. He has never been arrested. No criminal record. 

The Chairman. Is he reputed to be one of the fellows you were 
talking about, back in the racket days ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes ; he was in with the newspapers and came up the 
hard way. Then, all of a sudden, came out with money and legitimate 
places. 

He was a partner also of Shondor Birns in the Theatrical Grill. 

The Chairman. Is he in these Kentucky places ? 

Mr. Sutton. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. How about Samuel "Game Boy" Miller? Have 
you been trying to find Wexler around, first? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes; we have. 

The Chairman. Do you know where he is? 

Mr. Sutton. The last report, that he was on a yacht off the coast 
of Florida: 

"Game Boy" Miller 

The Chairman. What is the name of that yacht ? Do you know ? 

Mr. Sutton. I do not know. 

The Chairman. How about "Game Boy" Miller? Does he live 
here ? 

Mr. Sutton. He is the brother-in-law of Mushy Wexler. He has 
been spending most of his time in recent years in Florida. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 41 

He is a gambler and worked in the bootleg days ; came up that way. 

The Chairman. Have you tried to find him? 

Mr. Sutton. We have made searches for him, but we feel that he 
isn't in town and hasn't been in town in recent months. 

The Chairman. And here is Samuel Tucker. Does he live here ? 

Mr. Sutton. Sam Tucker. I do not think he lives here in Cleve- 
land. I am positive he doesn't. I do not know where he lives, though. 

The Chairman. Are Brink and Croft and Levinson from here? 

Mr. Sutton. Brink and Croft are former Clevelanders, but they 
have been out of Cleveland for some time. 

The Chairman. They are in Kentucky ? 

Mr. Sutton. That is right. 

The Chairman. How about Levinson ? 

Mr. Sutton. He is in Kentucky, not Cleveland. 

The Chairman. And we know about Mickey Cohen ; we saw him in 
Los Angeles. 

Now, are the Milano boys from here ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes. Frank Milano is living in Mexico, and he has 
been living there for the last five or six or more years. He has a home 
in Akron, Ohio. 

The Chairman. What does Frank Milano do in Mexico? 

Mr. Sutton. He has a coffee plantation, and he is suspected of a 
number of operations, helping to smuggle in various individuals that 
have been deported, deported for various vices, such as dope, hop, and 
so forth. 

The Chairman. Well, wasn't he faced with some income-tax prob- 
lem, and went down to Mexico about that time ? 

Mr. Sutton. As I recall it, yes. He fled to Mexico. 

The Chairman. When was that? Do you know? 

Mr. Sutton. I believe it was about 7 or 8 years ago. 

The Chairman. Who is it that has a large ranch down in Arizona 
right now ? 

Mr. Sutton. Licavoli. 

The Chairman. Is he related to Milano? 

Mr. Sutton. No, I don't believe they are related. 

The Chairman. Don't they operate together in some way? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How do they operate together? 

Mr. Sutton. Asking for various favors, whether they can assist in 
obtaining certain material, or help to obtain money, by various enter- 
prises. 

The Chairman. Where is the other Milano? 

Mr. Sutton. We have two here in town. One is Jerry. That is 
a nephew of Frank Milano. 

Then Tony Milano has the Brotherhood Loan Co. out here on May- 
field Road, and also other legitimate companies, import-export com- 
panies. 

The Chairman. There is some connection between him and Mickey 
Cohen ; isn't there ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes ; very close. 

The Chairman. What is that ? Do you know ? 

Mr. Sutton. I know that they are in telephonic communication 
quite a bit. Just as it links up with Mickey Cohen and Shondor Birns, 



42 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Lou Rothkopf and Shondor Birns, Morris Kleinman to Lou Roth- 
kopf, Lou Rothkopf to Sam Haas. It is all interlinked. 

The Chairman. Now, in connection with Milano and Licavoli, isn't 
there some chap used to be around over at Youngstown, who came 
from Cleveland, who has been about to be deported for some time ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes. That is Frank Cammarata. He is the brother-in- 
law of Pete Licavoli. 

The Chairman. What does he do 1 

Mr. Sutton. Right now, I think he is in good hands, because the 
chief of police down there, Ed Allen, has been on his neck continu- 
ally since he has been down there. 

The Chairman. Any other questions ? 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce these crimi- 
nal records to which you referred in earlier testimony, of John 
Angersola, alias King. 

The Chairman. Well, let that be exhibit No. 29. We might as well 
put it in that way. 

It appears to be taken from the police records of the Cleveland 
bureau. 

You are familiar with them ? 

Mr. Sutton. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as exhibit 
No. 29, and appears in the appendix on p. 453.) 

Mr. Nellis. Exhibit No. 30, George J. Angersola, alias King. 

The Chairman. That is exhibit No. 30. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 30, and appears in the appendix on p. 454.) 

Mr. Nellis. Exhibit No. 31, Lou Rothkopf, alias Lou Rhody, alias 
John Zarumba. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 31. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 31, and appears in the appendix on p. 455.) 

Mr. Nellis. The record of Morris Kleinman. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 32. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 32, and appears in the appendix on p. 455.) 

Mr. Nellis. And Samuel A. Tucker. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 33. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 33, and is on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Director, we appreciate your cooperation, and 
the energetic work you are doing here. 

Do you feel that you and the local people stay right on top of this 
thing; that you can pretty well keep it under control? 

Mr. Sutton. As long as we are on the offensive and not sitting 
back waiting for something to get entrenched. 

The Chairman. Do you have any suggestions as to how the United 
States Congress, within Federal jurisdiction, can be of any assistance 
to good law-enforcement officers like yourself? 

Mr. Sutton. Not at this time. I would like to discuss the matter 
before you leave the city, Senator. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 43 

The Chairman. Well, we would be glad to have your recommenda- 
tions anytime. We thank you for your appearance here, and for 
your very splendid statement. 

Mr. Sutton. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Let Mr. McBride come back around. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR B. McBRIDE, CLEVELAND, OHIO, 
ACCOMPANIED BY WALTER GALLAGHER AND WILLIAM DEMP- 
SEY, ATTORNEYS, WASHINGTON, D. C. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. McBride, you have been previously sworn. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Where were you born, Mr. McBride? 

Mr. McBride. Chicago. 

Mr. Nellis. What year ? 

Mr. McBride. 1886. 

Mr. Nellis. And in what year did you come to Cleveland? 

Mr. McBride. 1913. 

Mr. Nellis. And what was your business at that time? 

Mr. McBride. I was circulation manager of the Cleveland News. 

Mr. Nellis. And how old were you about then ? 

Mr. McBride. About 24 or 25. 

Mr. Nellis. Was there a strike situation in the city of Cleveland 
at the time you came here ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; there was not. 

Mr. Nellis. None in the taxicabs at that time ? 

Mr. McBride. I wasn't in the taxicab business at that time. 

I was circulation manager of the Cleveland News at that time. That 
was in 1913. 

Mr. Nellis. Oh, I see. And what were your duties as circulation 
manager of the Cleveland News ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, to see that the papers were distributed to the 
homes, to the stores, to the newsboys, and also to see that they got out 
on schedule. 

We had a schedule to make trains, and we had our country agents 
that we had to supply, we had to make our schedule according to the 
trains that left for country towns. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have what is commonly known as a circulation; 
war at that time, or shortly after? 

Mr. McBride. We had trouble. 

Mr. Nellis. With whom? 

Mr. McBride. Oh, I don't know. The Plain Dealer, particularly. 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me ? 

The Chairman. The Plain Dealer, particularly. 

Mr. Nellis. And what was the nature of that trouble, Mr. McBride?" 

Mr. McBride. Well, they were chasing our boys off the corners; 
wouldn't let them handle it in Cleveland. 

Mr. Gallagher. Senator, I would like to ask a question at this time. 
In the light of the subpena and our understanding as counsel of Mr. 
McBride as to what was going to be inquired into, I cannot see what 
relevancy or pertinency there is in what happened between the Cleve- 
land News and the Plain Dealer back in 1913 or 1920. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 4 



44 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, I think as it goes on you will see the per- 
tinency of it, Mr. Gallagher. 

Mr. Nellis. May I have the last question ? 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you testify that there was some trouble with the 
Cleveland Plain Dealer at that time? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, but I didn't have it. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, what kind of trouble was it ? 

Mr. McBride. There was a man by the name of Ragen, and he was 
circulation manager of the Leader, and I was circulation manager 
of the News. 

Ragen was the one that had trouble with the Plain Dealer, not 
McBride. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that James Ragen ? 

Mr. McBride. James Ragen ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, when did you first meet "Muscle Tony" Civetta ? 

Mr. McBride. "Muscle Tony" Civetta? 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know one Anthony Civetta ? 

Mr. McBride. I know Tony. I don't know whether I know Anthony 
or not. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, do you know Tony Civetta ? 

Mr. McBride. I know Tony. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear that he was called "Muscle Tony?" 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. I might have and might not have. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. McBride. Definitely. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know John Angersola, alias King? 

Mr. McBride. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. George Angersola ? 

Mr. McBride. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. Same alias. 

Mr. McBride. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. Fred Angersola? 

Mr. McBride. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. Mushy Wexler? 

Mr. McBride. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. Aren't these men who were associated with you at the 
time of those wars between the Plain Dealer and the paper of which 
you were circulation manager? 

Mr. McBride. We had no trouble. The News had no trouble with 
the Plain Dealer. The Leader was the one that had the trouble. 
That is what you are driving at, is it not ? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, were they associated with you at that time? 

Mr. McBride. I think Mr. Polizzi sold papers at that time, and that 
was an afternoon paper at Ninth and Woodland. 

Now, Johnny King- 



Mr. Nellis. Was he employed- 



Mr. McBride. No ; wait just a minute. He wasn't employed. All he 
made was his commissions on the paper. 
Mr. Nellis. Was he employed by you ? 
Mr. McBride. No. 
Mr. Nellis. By whom was he employed ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 45 

Mr. McBride. I don't think so. He sold papers, and the profits he 
made he kept. In other words, at that time, I think the papers were 
two for a cent. They sold for a penny, and they kept half the profits. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that also true of Johnny King ? 

Mr. McBride. Johnny King, the first time I met with him, he was 
cleaning buildings. 

The May Co. building, right over here, I stopped on the street and 
I said, "Who is doing this job ?" He said, "My brother-in law and I." 

I said 

Mr. Nellis. About what year was that ? 

Mr. McBride. I would say about 1918 ; in that neighborhood. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you also know Anthony Civetta at that time? 

Mr. McBride. No; I never knew Anthony Civetta until he was 
driving cab. 

Mr. Nellis. When was that? 

Mr. McBride. About 1933 or 1934. 

Mr. Nellis. How about Mushy Wexler? When did you first meet 
him? 

Mr. McBride. I know Mushy Wexler since 1915, 1 imagine, or 1916, 
maybe 1913. 

Mr. Nellis. He worked for you ? 

Mr. McBride. Sold papers. 

Mr. Nellis. When you were circulation manager ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Of the 

Mr. McBride. News. 

Mr. Nellis. News. What were his duties ? 

Mr. McBride. His duties was, we had corners. I don't recall just 
what corner, I think it was the Leader corner. He had had corners 
downtown. Then from there he developed to a driver. 

Mr. Nellis. Did it ever come to your attention that there was vio- 
lence on the steets of Cleveland at the time of this circulation war ? 

Mr. McBride. What do you mean by violence? We never had no 
trouble as far as violence is concerned in the News and Press. 

Mr. Nellis. I asked you whether you heard that there was violence 
on the streets of Cleveland. 

Mr. McBride. Between the Leader "and the Plain Dealer. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you allow me to finish my question? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear that there was violence on the streets 
of Cleveland with respect to the circulation war that took place at 
that time? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know what you mean by circulation war. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of that ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, just give it to me more definite. What do you 
mean by circulation war ? 

Mr. Nellis. All right, sir. Did you ever hear that certain strong- 
arm individuals were hijacking trucks belonging to other newspapers, 
distributing the papers over the streets, and beating up the boys run- 
ning the trucks of the rival newspapers? 

Mr. McBride. Are you talking about the News now or the Leader 
or the Plain Dealer or the Press? Which are you talking about? 

Mr. Nellis. I am talking of all three of them. Did vou ever hear 
of it? 



46 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. I heard there was a little trouble but I don't think 
it was that serious. I think all it was, was two boys competing on 
corners, and then later on they did have trouble between the Leader 
and Plain Dealer. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact that after your arrival in Cleveland, you 
hired these strong-arm artists like John Angersola. 

Mr. McBride. John Angersola never sold papers that I know of. 

Mr. Nellis. Mushy Wexler, Al Polizzi, and Chuck Polizzi? Do 
you know him ? I forgot to ask you. 

Mr. McBride. Yes; I know Chuck. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. McBride. Maybe 20 years, 25 years. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business, Mr. McBride ? 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you. I think he sells coal, to the best 
of my knowledge. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you employ Al Polizzi, Mushy Wexler, and 
Chuck Polizzi at that time ? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. They were not under your employ? 

Mr. McBride. Now, wait. Mushy Wexler sold papers. He made 
the profit on the papers. Later on he developed into a wagon driver. 
Then I employed him when he drove a wagon. 

Mr. Nellis. How about Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. McBride. Al Polizzi sold papers, and I don't remember him 
driving a wagon. He might have drove one but I don't know. As- 
far as Chuck is concerned, I don't know what he done in o them days. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact that Al Polizzi did drive wagons for you '? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. You would have to ask him that 
question. I can't remember. 

I would like to clean up Johnny King while we are at it a little 
further. 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me. 

Mr. Gallagher. Permit the witness to make a statement. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the statement about? 

Mr. McBride. Johnny King, my first acquaintance was, Johnny 
King, him and his brother-in-law or he and his brother-in-law were 
cleaning the May Co. building over here. I had owned two build- 
ings, one at Sixty-fifth and Hough and the other at East Boulevard 
and Superior. 

I inquired. I went over. I seen they done a good job, so I said to 
the boy — Johnny was a boy at that time — I said, "Who is the boss 
here?" 

He said, "The fellow up on the ladder." 

I said, "Will you call him down?" 

He did. I said, "How would you like a job? Would you mind 
going out to — would you care to clean another building?" 

He said, "Sure, fine, I am looking for work." 

I said, "Would you mind going to Sixty-sixth and Hough and give- 
me a figure on that building?" It was called the Gary Apartments 
at that time. 

So they went out and he give me a figure, I think, of $400, so I had 
him clean the building. They done an excellent job. And from 
there on I gave him another building which was at East Boulevard 
and Superior. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 47 

Mr. Nellis. Now Mr. McBride, you are speaking of John Angersola. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know the record that Mr. Angersola has man- 
aged to accumulate in the past 30 years? Are you aware of it? 

Mr. McBride. I think he was sent away one time. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know that he has been arrested approximately 
18 times? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know about that. Any man can be arrested. 
That don't mean that he was convicted. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know that he was arraigned before the grand 
jury of this county on an indictment charging blackmail on October 
■3, 1939 ? Do you know that? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know it, no. I don't know it. I might have 
heard about it but I can't recall it. 

Mr. Gallagher. Was he convicted, Mr. Nellis ? 

Mr. McBride. Was he convicted ? 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking the questions. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know whether he was indicted ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know whether he was or not. That was in 
1939. 

Mr. Nellis. That's right. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know whether he was or not. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you yourself indicted about that time ? 

Mr. McBride. Where ? In Chicago, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you indicted with James Ragen ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Mushy Wexler? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. William Molasky? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Brophy. 

Mr. McBride. That's ri^ht. 

Mr. Gallagher. At that point, Mr. Nellis, let me make a state- 
ment, that the United States district court found there was no sub- 
stance to that indictment and the solicitor general's office took no 
appeal. 

Mr. Nellis. That is correct. 

Mr. Gallagher. All right, let the record show that. 

Mr. Nellis. I am coming to that and I am going to make the 
record for you. 

Isn't it a fact that the indictment was an indictment for conspiracy 
to carry from one State to another a list of prizes drawn or awarded 
by a lottery in violation of the criminal code ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know what the indictment was for. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you appear and plead to it ? 

Mr. McBride. I sure did. 

Mr. Gallagher. And pleaded not guilty ? 

Mr. McBride. And pleaded not guilty. 

Mr. Nellis. To make the record straight, of course, we should 
add here what you have previously mentioned. The court held the 
indictment fatally defective. 

Now let me question you a little bit about the people you were in- 
dicted with. Who is William Molasky ? 



48 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE' 

Mr. McBride. William Molasky is a man that has the agency in 
St. Louis. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the name of it ? 

Mr. McBride. I think it is the Empire 

Mr. Halley. Pioneer News. 

Mr. Nellis. Is it the Pioneer News ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Does he receive race results from Continental Press 
Service ? 

Mr. McBride. I think he did. 

Mr. Dempset. I think the records of the committee show that he 
does. 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking Mr. McBride because I think we have a 
right to know something of his background. 

Mr. Gallagher. Before we leave that one point about that in- 
dictment and its being turned down on the demurrer, Mr. Nellis, 
let's make it clear that the fact is that it was charging the trans- 
mission of racing news and pari-mutual prices constituted a viola- 
tion of the Federal lottery statutes, and the United States district 
court held that that was not a fact. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. Would you like me to read the judge's decision? 

Mr. Gallagher. No, you don't have to. I think that will cover it. 

Mr. Nellis. That is exactly correct, Mr. Gallagher. 

Mr. Gallagher. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You have testified that William Molasky is of St. 
Louis ; is that right ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. McBride. 25 years. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business ? 

Mr. McBride. His business is news business. 

Mr. Nellis. Is he a subscriber of Continental Press? 

The Chairman. The record shows the Pioneer News is one of the 
distributors. 

Mr. Nellis. Of Continental Press service? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Is this Morris Wexler the same Mushy Wexler this 
committee is seeking for service of a subpena ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know where he is? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. How long since you have seen him ? 

Mr. McBride. Oh, I haven't seen Mushy in a period of 4 or 5 months, 
I guess. 

Mr. Nellis. When was the last time you saw him, do you recall ? 

Mr. McBride. I think at the Theatrical Grill. 

Mr. Nellis. Sir. 

Mr. McBride. I think in his place, the Theatrical Grill. 

Mr. Nellis. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. McBride. I would say 4 or 5 months. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Brophy ? 

Mr. McBride. Brophy was the distributor in Los Angeles — he was 
the distributor in Los Angeles. 

Mr. Nellis. Of what ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 49 

Mr. McBride. He bought service. He had a scratch sheet out there 
and he bought service. 

Mr. Nellis Distributed it? 

Mr. McBride. Distributed it from there on. 

The Chairman. Ragen's son-in-law. 

Mr. McBride. Ragen's son-in-law is right. 

Mr. Nellis. This James M. Ragen is the same person that you have 
referred to previously ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know about the criminal record of George J. 
Angersola ? 

Mr. McBride. George, I think you have sent away once. I don't 
know for what. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't he sent away for extortion in 1939 ? Don't he 
ever tell you about that? 

Mr. Gallagher. Just a moment, Mr. Nellis. I think Mr. McBride 
has already testified that he has had no business dealings with George 
Angersola. Where has that anything to do with the committee ? 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking him whether he knew it ? 

Mr. Gallagher. Of what importance is it whether he knew it or 
didn't know it? 

The Chairman. That's all right. 

Mr. Gallagher. He had no business transactions with him. 

The Chairman. I think he testified this morning that he had some 
transaction. 

Mr. Gallagher. With George ? 

Mr. McBride. Not with George ; with Johnny, not with George. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't George a brother of John Angersola? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that right ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. I ask you if you had ever heard whether he had gone to 
the penitentiary for extortion. 

Mr. Dempset. Senator, I would like to suggest this is the most 
amazing line of questioning I have ever heard, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Dempsey, wait just a minute. 

Mr. Dempsey. He asks him whether he knows a man's brother. 
What has that to do with this work of the committee ? 

The Chairman. Let me ask Mr. McBride, are you acquainted with 
George Angersola? It that the man we are talking about? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, that's right, sir. 

The Chairman. Is he an associate of yours or what do you know 
about him? 

Mr. McBride. I know him to see him. I know him the least of the 
three Kings, just bid him time of day and how are you, one thing and 
another. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever done any business or had any trans- 
actions with him in any way whatsoever? 

Mr. McBride. Not that I know of. I might have 

The Chairman. Well, for the time being unless we have some evi- 
dence that Mr. McBride has had something, let's ask about some other 
things. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. Did you hire anyone by the name of Angelo 
Sciria at the time you were circulation manager? 



50 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. Angelo Sciria? 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Angelo Sciria ? 

Mr. McBride. Is that Angelo Sciria — I can't place him. I might 
know him by some other name. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't he one of this group that worked for you at 
that time ? 

Mr. McBride. I can't place him. 

Mr. Nellis. With Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. McBride. I can't remember. 

Mr. Dempsey. Senator, this testimony was there was no group that 
worked with Mr. McBride. Mr. Nellis has heard it. 

Mr. Nellis. I think his testimony will speak for itself. 

Mr. Gallagher. Wait. We object to you characterizing it im- 
properly. He stated the man sold newspapers. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. He testified who worked for him 
and he cannot remember whether this man did or no, so that is the 
testimony. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, Mr. McBride, did you ever know Al Capone? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you acquainted with the testimony of Governor 
Cox? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Before the Federal Communications Commission. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. April 11 and 12, 1950. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you acquainted with the reputation of Governor 
Cox? 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest 

The Chairman. What was the testimony? You summarize it so 
we know what it was. Ask him about it. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Chairman, may I make this suggestion? If 
Mr. Cox's testimony is to be put in this record, he ought to be here 
as a witness. 

Mr. Gallagher. Under oath. 

Mr. Dempsey. I would like an opportunity to cross-examine him 
and if he repeats that testimony ask for an indictment for perjury 
against him. 

The Chairman. The committee of course has the right to take refer- 
ences from other committee hearings and I suppose that's what Mr. 
Nellis 

Mr. Dempsey. Governor Cox gave a deposition. 

The Chairman. All right. The objection is overruled for the time 
being. 

Mr. Gallagher. May I state one thing? You stated that when 
Mr. McBride finished his testimony, if there was any witness that 
said anything about Mr. McBride, he would have an opportunity to 
come in. If Mr. Nellis is going to make this statement of Cox's, we 
want Cox brought before this committee. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gallagher, you didn't exactly state what I 
said. I said if any witnesses appear after Mr. McBride and had any- 
thing to say about Mr. McBride, we would give him, Mr. McBride, an 
opportunity to come again making any explanat ion he wants to. The 
record of the testimony in the FCC hearing is public testimony. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 51 

Mr. Gallagher. Certainly. 

The Chairman. It has been publicized. I can't see why you want 
to get technical. 

Mr. Gallagher. I am not getting technical. 

The Chairman. There is an objection to reading something and 
asking him about it, something that everybody in the United States- 
can read if they want to. 

Mr. Gallagher. Right, but I saw a good example 

The Chairman. We have had enough argument on this entire 
point. What is your question ? 

Mr. Nellis. My question is whether or not Governor Cox testified 
on April 11 and 12, 1950, under oath, in proceedings before the Federal 
Communications Commission. Do you know that? 

Mr. McBride. I think they took the testimony at his house. He 
didn't testify in front of anybody. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know thai he testified before that Commission? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, he did. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact that he testified that he talked to you in 
the midst of the Capone expose in Miami back at the time when Al 
was down there sometime in the mid-30's? 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask that that entire 
record be put in evidence here because it conclusively illustrates that 
Mr. McBride was not employed at that time. 

The Chairman. The parts of it that have bearing on this subject 
will be put in. We don't put the entire record in, but if anybody 
wants to refer to it 

Mr. Gallagher. Senator, I saw an excellent example of your fair- 
ness in connection with the wire-tapping probe in Washington when 
Lieutenant Shimon's testimony was in, and on your motion that 
committee struck testimony with respect to a certain gentleman in 
North Carolina on the ground he wasn't there to protect himself. 
Mr. McBride is here to make a statement to this committee. We 
have asked that that record be incorporated, and we think in fairness 
to Mr. McBride that Governor Cox ought to come into this juris- 
diction or before your committee and make the same statement. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gallagher, all references in the testimony which 
have any reference to this matter will be incorporated in this record. 
We are not going to burden the record of this committee with a lot 
of matters that have nothing to do with the quesions being asked. 
The only question that was asked is that under oath in a public record 
Mr. Cox said that as standing against Mr. McBride. If Mr. McBride 
doesn't want to answer the question, all right, but I should think 
he would be very happy to have an opportunity to answer it. 

Mr. Gallagher. He is willing to do it, 

Mr. Dempsey. He answered it very fully. 

The Chairman. All right, if he answered it. 

Mr. Dempsey. I wonder why Mr. Nellis is only reading portions 
of that record. I think it all ought to be in here or none of it should 
be here. 

The Chairman. Anyway, the parts that have reference will be in- 
corporated. The question is whether Mr. Cox said it, and if Mr. 
McBride said he did not say it, why, then we will pass on to something 
else. 

Mr. Dempsey. I think it ought to be incorporated. 



52 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Let me tell you something, Mr. Dempsey. You 
and Mr. Gallagher are here by courtesy of the committee. We are 
glad to have you here, but I think we know our business and we don't 
want the hearing continually interrupted by one of you on one side 
and one of you on the other. If you have some objection to make, 
make your objection. When we get through with Mr. MeBride, if 
you want to ask him any question to explain anything, we will give 
you an opportunity, but let's try to get on with the hearing. 

Mr. Gallagher. May I make just one statement and state an objec- 
tion, then, Senator? You stated at the commencement of this hear- 
ing today that Mr. MeBride was here for a limited purpose, as set 
forth in the subpena. That was our understanding. Now we are 
going back 20, 30 years ago. 

The Chairman. I didn't state that. You will have to refresh your 
recollection about it. 

Mr. Gallagher. I will have to get a copy of the transcript. 

The Chairman. You will have to get a copy. I didn't say what 
purpose Mr. MeBride was here for. He is here for the purpose of 
giving testimony about anything that we think is pertinent. 

Mr. Gallagher. Well, now, Senator, just a moment. 

The Chairman. We said that we had the subpena, the subpena had 
been limited to certain matters, that we wanted his books and records 
on those. 

Mr. Gallagher. All right. 

The Chairman. But proceed with the questions, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, are you acquainted with the fact that Governor 
Cox testified, in that form, that he talked to you sometime in the 
mid-thirties concerning the Capone matter? Are you acquainted 
with it? 

Mr. McBride. 1931 ? 

Mr. Nellis. Sometime in the mid-thirties, he testified. 

Mr. McBride. I am acquainted with what he had to say. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you acquainted with the fact that he testified that 
you came to him on a golf course, either the Bay Shore or the Miami 
golf course, and introduced yourself to Cox on the train — or prior 
to that on the train — pardon me 

Mr. Dempsey. Don't you think the document ought to speak for 
itself? 

The Chairman. Let the question be asked. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you acquainted that he testified that he met you 
previously on a train? 

Mr. McBride. In '35, that is. 

Mr. Nellis. That's right. Are you acquainted with the incident 
concerning the time he met you on the golf course ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you acquainted with his testimony to the follow- 
ing effect, and I am quoting : "He immediately went into the Capone 
thing" — meaning you — "because things were pretty warm here. 
You must remember Capone came in here at night. He leased his 
property surreptitiously. Now, McBride came to me and said" — 
and he is quoting you — " 'You are all wrong about Capone,' he said. 
"He is a fine fellow. I would like to bring him here. I would like 
to come to your office.' " 

Are you acquainted with that ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 53 

Mr. Gallagher. Just a moment- 



Mr. McBride. I am acquainted with what Mr. Cox 

The Chairman. Let him answer, and then if you want to make any 
explanation so 

Mr. Gallagher. Is Mr. Nellis going to read Mr. McBride's answer 
to that statement ? That is what we want. 

The Chairman. As long as they opened the doors, let them read 
the answer. 

Mr. Nellis. Let's reserve that for a moment. 

Mr. Dempsey. Let's have it now. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, you can have it now. 

Mr. Dempsey. I don't think you are prepared on that side of it, 
are you, Mr. Nellis? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes; I am. 

The Chairman. Mr. Dempsey- 



Mr. Dempsey. Beg your pardon if I am being- 



The Chairman. Let us ask the witnesses questions and let the wit- 
ness do the testifying. We will get along all right. 

Mr. Dempsey. That isn't this witness' testimony. This man is read- 
ing excerpts from a deposition. 

Mr. Nellis. We are going to give him an opportunity 

The Chairman. It is a public record, and we are going to put every- 
thing that is said about it in this record. 

Mr. Gallagher. We have got a lot of press coverage. Can we have 
Mr. Nellis just read Mr. McBride's answer from that record so the 
press can hear it ? 

Mr. Nellis. He is here to testify now. 

Mr. Gallagher. Read it out. You have read Cox. Just read it 
the way he stated it before he asks under oath. 

Mr. Nellis. I want to be accurate on this, and I will have the record 
here in a minute. 

Is it a fact that he told you to get out of there and never speak to 
him again ? Did he say anything like that? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he testify that you had no dealings or conversa- 
tions with him since that time ? Did he testify to that effect ? 

Mr. McBride. That I had no dealings with him ? 

Mr. Nellis. Since that time ? 

Mr. McBride. I guess he did. 

Did he tell you about asking me to run a crab business because the 
man in Atlanta couldn't give him advertising ? 

Dan Mahoney called me and wanted me to go to Atlanta. He 
bought a paper in Atlanta. 

Let's get down to rock bottom here. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you testify immediately after that testimony ? 

Mr. McBride. Immediately after that ? 

Mr. Dempsey. There wasn't any testimony. Cox gave a deposition. 

Mr. McBride. Cox didn't even have nerve enough to come down 
and face me. 

Mr. Nellis. There was testimony here 

Mr. McBride. He took a deposition, made them come out to their 
house, and I would have been there ready to face them. 

The Chairman. Here is your testimony, Mr. McBride. 



54 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE' 

Mr. McBride. Well, we have two, if you please, Senator. Read 
mine, too. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you say ? 

Mr. McBride. It is in the record. 

The Chairman. Well, read both of them, right into the record. In 
addition to what is in the record, which we will incorporate in this 
record, if you want to say anything about it, why, say so. 

Mr. McBride. In 1938 I riin— in 1935 I was going to Miami, and I 
thought I had the train number that I have been on, I am fairly sure 
it was the one, and he had a rubber, a fellow that took care of him. 
He worked for Muncie prior to working for Mr. Cox. 

He come out. There were about three of us in the car, and Mr. 
Cox had a drawing room. I was sitting back in a lower berth,, 
and they cleaned the berth up, and this fellow come over and he says, 
"How do you do?" Not Cox, this man that worked for him, this, 
rubber. 

He said, "Kind of lonesome here." 

I said, "Yes, it is. Sit down." 

So we got to discussing different things. He told me he worked for 
Mr. Cox, that he took care of him. We sat there and we talked for 
maybe 15 minutes, a half hour. I didn't pay any more attention to 
him. 

I told him my name was McBride, I had been in the newspaper 
business but I now was in the taxicab business. So, he goes back and 
he talks to Cox, and Cox comes out and he said, "Mr. McBride, I am. 
glad to meet you." He said, "I heard about you." 

I said, "Did you?" 

He said, "You know Annenberg pretty well?" 

I said, "Yes, I do." 

"How long have you known him?" 

"Oh, I must have known him," I said, "since 1900. I knew him 
when he was a bartender, when him and Max both were bartenders." 

He said, "Mr. McBride, I had a man come from Pittsburgh." 

Bear in mind, at this time Annenberg had started the Miami Tri- 
bune. 

He said, "Do you think that — " he got friendly, nice, suave. 

He said, "Do you think that Mr. Annenberg would send a man from 
Pittsburgh to want to buy me out?" 

I said, "No." I said, "I don't know, but knowing Annenberg as I 
do, he would go in and talk to him — go in and talk to you himself." 

He was a man that wasn't afraid to talk to anybody, and I figured 
he would go in and talk to him. He wanted to know all about Annen- 
berg. I told him about Annenberg tending bar days at Twenty-sixth 
and State, one of them would tend bar during the day and the other 
tend bar during the night. He was very interested in hearing about 
Annenberg. 

In our conversation I said Annenberg is a pretty good businessman 
and a tiresome worker. Well, he got a little — didn't like to hear that 
businessman, I guess. 

He went back to his room, and I paid no more attention to him. I 
guess he came in to Cincinnati, I didn't see any more of Cox until — 
I met the rubber one time — well, I didn't see any more of Cox until 
1938 or 1939, and there was a four-ball tournament on the golf course. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 55 

So in coming out of the golf course, and I think Sarazen was one of 
the golfers that played, and Rivola, and I think somebody else, I just 
don't remember, but as we come out to the gate, Cox said, "Hello, 
McBride, how are you?" 

I said, "Fine." 

He said, "That friend of yours didn't do so good in Miami, did he?" 

In the meantime, Annenberg had sold out the Tribune to John 
Knight and went out of business. 

I said, "Well, I don't know. I don't know what he done." 

He said, "You wouldn't call it a good businessman, losing $600,000, 
would you?" 

I said, "Well, I don't know anything about that." 

And he said, "Furthermore," he said, "I will send that Jew son of 
a bitch to the penitentiary yet." 

I said, "Well, I can't help that," 

Ragen said to me, "What a vicious old bastard he is." 

So that was the end of Mr. Cox. 

The Chairman. Was there any conversation about Capone? 

Mr. McBride. No, none whatsoever. Al Capone left Florida, as 
the records show, I think in 1930, and at that time I was circulation 
manager of the News in 1930 and hadn't been in Florida until 1934 ? 
It was my first trip to Florida, and I proved that conclusively by 
the records of the News, and by the people where I stayed. 

Now, where do we go from here ? 

The Chairman. These questions back and forth from the other 
record will be put in this record, his statement and your answers to 
things will be in this record. 

Mr. McBride. And it is in that record. 

The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, Mr. McBride, you asked about records concerning 
real-estate transactions with Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any real-estate transactions with Al 
Polizzi in Florida ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you describe those, please ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, Mr. Polizzi and I bought what we Call the 
/'Shriner golf course. 

Mr. Nellis. What is that ? 

Mr. McBride. I think the name of that was the Shriner golf course. 
That is what it was called, I think, at that time. 

Mr. Nellis. About when did this occur? 

Mr. McBride. You have the date there ; the exact dates whatever 
it is, I will agree. 

Mr. Nellis. Is it true that, on about the 25th of Feburay 1918, you 
and your wife, joined by Alfred Polizzi and his wife, conveyed some 
property to the H. &. I. Holding Co., a Florida corporation? 

Mr. McBride. That could be possible. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the H. & I. Co. ? 

Mr McBride. The H. I. Holding Co. is a holding company that 
the National Title Co. got in which you can put property in their 
name and hold it for you. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that property held in beneficial trust for you ? Are 
.you the beneficial owner of that property ? 



56 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. Well, I just don't know what you mean by benefi- 
cial — explain it more thoroughly. 

Mr. Nellis. When you conveyed that property to the H. I. Holding 
Co., did you transfer title to them ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, sure. 

Mr. Nellis. Do they hold title for you? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. They give you a letter, and every time we 
release anything they send us a letter. 

Mr. Nellis. Does that date, to which I have referred, cover property 
bought by you or sold by you to Al Polizzi beginning October 1945 r 
the property known as the University Estates ? 

Let's see if you can recognize it this way : Do you recognize a war- 
ranty deed "Arthur McBride and Mayme McBride to Al Polizzi, 
consideration of $10, filed November 23, 1945." I will show it to you. 

Mr. McBride. This is not the Shriner property. 

Mr. Nellis. What property is that ? 

Mr. McBride. That is six lots on Coral Gables. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that part of the section known as University Estates ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I don't think so. 

Mr. Nellis. What is that section known as ? 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you the section, but there are six lots. 

Mr. Gallagher. In connection with the H. I. Holding Co. which 
you asked about in the subpena, I think Mr. McBride in a couple of 
minutes could explain why that property which is owned jointly by 
Polizzi and McBride is now with the National Title. 

Why don't you explain how that happened ? 

Mr. McBride. We sold that property to a man by the name of 

The Chairman. What property are you talking about ? 

Mr. McBride. We are talking about the University Estates property. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is the one described as Shriner golf course. 

Mr. McBride. Shriner golf course. 

That property was sold, and the man built about forty houses. The 
contract was that he was to build four houses a month, take four lots 
a month until he completed the allotment. Things got rough on him. 
He got sick, had to go away, had a heart attack. Well, he was over- 
weight, high blood pressure, either one of the two. 

So he lost his deposit of $10,000 and turned back the property to 
us, and we still own the property, and it is in the H. I. Holding Co. 
name, We own the balance of the property. 

Mr. Nellis. You and Alfred Polizzi? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Gallagher. Is it a fact that it was put in the H. I. Holding 
Co. so that the person who had the option on the lots would be able 
to go to the title company that he was building on different lots? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Gallagher. And you permitted it to remain there until it was- 
turned back and he has defaulted ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you happen to go into this venture with Mr. 
Polizzi? 

Mr. McBride. I had started off with a man by the name of FrankeL 

Mr. Nellis. Who is that ? 

Mr. McBride. Frankel, a man by the name of Frankel took it. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his full name, do you know ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 57 

Mr. McBride. Gee, I couldn't tell you. But I sold him a piece 
of property on the beach, and he made considerable money on it. I 
sold him 20 acres on the beach. 

Mr. Nellis. When was this, approximately, Mr. McBride? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I can get that date by the date that I bought 
this. When did I buy this property? About 2 years prior to that 
time. 

Mr. Nellis. That would be about 1943? 

Mr. McBride. About 1943. 

And during the time — I had sold him the property for $100,000, 20 
acres, and during that time I had a half dozen offers on the property 
where I could have got as high as $250,000 for the piece, but I told 
him that I would take it, and I didn't want to go back on my word. 

So it strung along on account of titles, and one thing and another. 
They were kind of tied up, and we couldn't get straightened away on. 
In the meantime, he got the property. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was he ? 

Mr. McBride. Mr. Frankel. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, how did you happen to go into it with Polizzi ? 
Will you explain that? 

Mr. McBride. I will explain that. 

Frankel come over to Allen Brown's office so 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he ? 

Mr. McBride. The real-estate office there. 

Mr. Nellis. Where? In Miami? 

Mr. McBride. In Coral Gables. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. McBride. Allen Brown. I would say about 15 years, 14, 15 
years. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. Go on. 

Mr. McBride. And he bought — he was the one that started over to 
buy the Shriner golf course. So, he asked Allen whether or not I 
would take half, but I think the deal involved $103,000. So Allen 
called me, and I said I will take half of it. I knew the property, knew 
it very well. 

In the meantime, he had a lawyer — about a month elapsed — in the 
meantime he had a lawyer by the name of Williams, and Williams 
wanted — Frankel wanted to get out of the deal. So he come in to 
Allen Brown and told him they weren't going to take the title, weren't 
going to take the property on account of the title. They couldn't 
clear it up to their satisfaction. 

So Allen called me about it. I said : "I will take it myself. I will 
go ahead with it. You can clear up the title." 

I said, "Take that down to the National Title Co. ; and, if they can 
clear the title, I will take it." 

So he called me after they went over the title, and they told me 
that they could clear the title ; so I said, "Well, I will take it." 

In the meantime, a couple of days elapsed, and Mr. Polizzi was 
building and fooling around there with real estate, and he came in 

and he asked if there were anything that he had 

Mr. Nellis. He asked you what ? 

Mr. McBride. No; asked Allen Brown. I was in Cleveland. 

Mr. Nellis. I see. 



.58 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. If there was anything that they had around there 
that he could invest any money in. That he would like to buy some- 
thing that Allen thought was good. 

Mr. Nellis. Who told you that he came in and asked Brown for this 
proposition ? 

Mr. McBride. Allen Brown. It is all a matter of record. 

Mr. Nellis. I see. 

Mr. McBride. It has been before the FCC. 

Mr. Nellis. Go ahead. 

Mr. McBride. And Allen told him he didn't know, but he would 
talk to me. 

Allen talked to me. I said, "Yes; sure; it would be all right." 

In the meantime, I think I got a call from Mr. Polizzi. He said, 
"Do you have any objections to me taking half interest in that 
property?" 

I said, "None whatsoever ; be glad to have you." 

Mr. Nellis. You were glad to go into business with Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. McBride. I have no — nothing ashamed of at all. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his reputation, Mr. McBride — do you know ? — 
: as a good citizen ? 

Mr. McBride. In my way of thinking, he is all right. He is a good 
<citizen. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know what his criminal record is ? Have you 
.any idea? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Nellis. What is it? 

Mr. McBride. He was sent away once for bootlegging, another time 
for not having — another time for stamps, or something of that kind. 
J just don't know what the second was. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever heard that the second was a black-market 
whisky deal in 1944? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know what it was. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know a man by the name "Fred Garmone" ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; I do, very well. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you know him ? 

Mr. McBride. Twenty years or more. 

Mr. Nellis. Was he involved with Mr. Polizzi in this deal? 

Mr. McBride. I think he was. He was the lawyer that handled 
the deals for him. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, would you be surprised if I told you that Mr. 
Polizzi has had seven arrests, has been to prison, and has been known 
to the Cleveland police for many years? 

Mr. McBride. Let me ask you this question 

Mr. Nellis. Would you be surprised to know that ? 

Mr. McBride. I have had 50 boys in my lifetime that went to prison, 
and every one that I helped turned out to be pretty good boys. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, is he a pretty good boy now ? 

Mr. McBride. I think he is a good family man. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, I would like at this time to introduce 
in evidence these copies, certified from the deed book with respect to 
(lie transactions that I have been asking Mr. McBride about. 

The Chairman. Do they all have to do with the University Estates? 

Mr. Nellis, Yes; they do, sir. 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 59 

The Chairman. All right. Let them be made exhibit No. ?A. 
(The documents identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 34, and are on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Nellis. Are there any other real-estate transactions between 
you and Mr. Polizzi? 

Mr. McBride. None that I know of. 

Mr. Nellis. Any other dealings in Coral Gables? 

Mr. McBride. Wait just a minute. 

Air. Nellis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McBride. That is all. 

Mr. Nellis. No other real-estate transactions anywhere? 

Mr. McBride. Not that I haven't mentioned. 

Mr. Nellis. You still hold this land together, a beneficial interest? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. Just a minute. The holding company holds 
it for us. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes; I know. They hold it for you, but he owns 50 
percent \ 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. And you own 50 percent? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, did he give you the $51,000, representing his 
share of that purchase? 

Mr. McBride. I think that was put up — he put that up himself with 
the National Title Co., when we escrowed the deal. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you put yours up at the same time? 

Mr. McBride. I sent mine to the National Title Co. ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. By check ? 

Mr. McBride. I think so ; sure. 

Mr. Nellis. Was the amount approximately $51,000 ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know what it was. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, you testified it was around $102,000. 

Mr. McBride. Weil, I don't think they took back the mortgage on 
that. The records will show. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, do you own exactly half of that? 

Mr. McBride. I own exactly 50 percent. 

Mr. Nellis. And he owns exactly half ? 

Mr. McBride. He owns exactly the same. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever know Polizzi by the name "Albert Allen" ? 
Have you ever known Polizzi by the name "Albert Allen" % 

Mr. McBride. No; I haven't. 

Mr. Nellis. You never heard the name "Albert Allen" ? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you know that back in 1920, when you knew him 
pretty well — you testified — he was picked up on cases of robbery in 
four separate instances ? — and here is the police report : 

Held up and robbed at the point of a revolver at 6:15 a. m. October 10, 1928, in 
room 10M2 Hollenden Hotel. 

Mr. McBride. I didn't know about it. 
Mr. Nellis. Under the name "Albert Allen." 
Mr. Gallagher. Was he convicted at that time, Mr. Nellis ? 
Mr. Nellis. I am asking the questions. I want to know whether you 
ever heard that. 

68958 — 51— pt. 6 5 



60 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. Listen, I will tell you what happened to me one night r 
and I can subpena a witness in here. I was sitting in a place 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me. All I want to know is whether or not you 
heard him called by the name "Albert Allen" ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I did not hear. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, you testified this morning that you have had some 
transactions with the Milanos ; is that right ? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Which Milano ? 

Mr. McBride. Tony Milano. 

Mr. Nellis. What transactions were those ? 

Mr. McBride. I think— well, the transactions, I think, I was out— 
oh, I don't know. Now, what year was that ? 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking you. Did you bring some records with 
respect to transactions with Milano, or did you say you didn't have 
any? 

Mr. McBride. It is a Brotherhood deal ; ain't it? The Brotherhood 

Bank? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I am asking you, Mr. McBride. 

Mr. McBride. Yes. I know of an instance where either a man by 
the name of Pete Leonard, or Tony Milano come to me and asked me 
to subscribe, asked me to take some stock or put some money in the 
bank that they were starting. 

At that time I think I was on the News, and I was trying to get all 
the circulation I possibly could up in that neighborhood, and I had can- 
vassers up in that neighborhood soliciting business, and I invested 
$200. 

Mr. Nellis. In what? 

Mr. McBride. I think 

Mr. Nellis. Was it the Laraldo Publishing Co. ? 

Mr. McBride. Gee, I don't know. No ; it was a bank, I think. 

Mr. Nellis. Was it the Brotherhood Loan ? 

Mr. McBride. I think it was the Brotherhood Loan. That is about 
21, 22' years ago ; is it not ? 

Mr. Nellis. And do you know whose enterprise that is ? 

Mr. McBride. I think it is Tony Milano's. 

Mr. Nellis. And how long have you known him ? 

Mr. McBride. Oh, I must know Tony Milano 25 years or more. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his reputation as a good citizen ? 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you that. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know anything about his activities or 
business ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of the Kichmond Country Club ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Nellis. What is that, sir? 

Mr. McBride. Well, it was an eating place is all I know about it. 
I don't think I was there — I don't ever remember being out there. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't remember being out there ? 

Mr. McBride. No. . 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear that that was formerly the Ohio 
Villa, a notorious gambling joint? 

Mr. McBride. I have heard of it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 61 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that your friend Tony — he is your 
friend ? 

Mr. McBride. He ain't a fellow that I visit back and forth, but I 
know the man for 25 years. 

Mr. Nellis. "Well, would you say he was your friend ? 
Mr. McBride. Well, I would say he wasn't my enemy. 
The Chairman. Is he an associate of yours? 

Mr. McBride. Well, Senator, just what would you call "an 
associate" I 

The Chairman. Well, I suppose we all have our ideas about who an 
associate is. 

Mr. McBride. A business associate? 

The Chairman. Is he a man that you do business with ; that you are 
happy to be in business with? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I never had no business outside of this. I 
know the gentleman. As far as visiting back and forth, I haven't 
seen the man, I don't think, in maybe 21 or 22 years. 
Mr. Nellis. What was that once, Mr. McBride ? 
Mr. McBride. I think there was a Father McBride that was given 
a title, and they gave a blow-out. He had the parish out there, and 
the blow-out was at Seventy-ninth and Euclid. 
Mr. Nellis. What year ? 
Mr. McBride. About 2 years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that an occasion on Avhich Tony Milano's daugh- 
ter was married? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I don't know anything about that. 
Mr. Nellis. You don't know that. 
You weren't present at the wedding ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; I think I was. Pardon me ; I forgot that. 
Mr. Nellis. Now, you were present at the wedding of Tony Milano's 
daughter; is that right? 

Mr. McBride. Wait just a minute. No; not Tony's daughter; 
Tony Milano's son. 
Mr. Nellis. His son Peter; is that right? 
Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And do you remember any of the people who were 
there? 

Mr. McBride. No; I just went in and went out. I don't remember 
who was there. 

Mr. Nellis. You weren't introduced to anybody there ? 
Mr. McBride. Not that I recall. 
Mr. Nellis. Did you meet Al Polizzi there ? 
Mr. McBride. I might have met him there. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. McBride, did you know that Anthony Milano, 
known as Tony Milano, also, has a record for counterfeiting, sent 
to prison for (i years at Leavenworth, with his brother Frank \ Do 
you know Frank Milano? 
Mr. McBride. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 
Mr. McBride. Thirty years, I guess. 
Mr. Nellis Where is he ? 
Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you that, 
Mr. Nellis. How long since you have seen him ? 



62 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE: 

Mr. McBride. I don't think I have seen Milano in 18 or 20 years. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know where he is ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Gallagher. Have you been associated in business with him? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Gallagher. The answer is "No." 

Mr. McBride. Wait ; I want to clarify that. 

Mr. Nellis. Go ahead. 

Mr. McBride. You know Mr. Milano had a restaurant. 

Mr. Nellis. Where ? 

Mr. McBride. On May field Koad. 

Mr. Nellis. How long ago ? 

Mr. McBride. 20 years ago or more. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of any killings committed at that 
restaurant ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What were they ? 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you now. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of the Mafia? 

Mr. McBride. I have heard of it ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What do you think it is ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Well what have you heard ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, you said you had heard of it. You must have 
heard of it in some connection. 

Mr. McBride. I read it in the paper. 

Mr. Gallagher. We are getting into a lot of hearsay, what he has 
heard. Everybody in the room has heard of it, if there is one. 

The Chairman. Mr. McBride, do you know what it is? Or have 
you had any association with the so-called Mafia ? 

Mr. McBride. Senator, I don't know what it is any more than 
you do. 

The Chairman. Now, Frank Milano. You had Tony Milano. 

Mr. McBride. They are two brothers, Senator. 

The Chairman. Frank Milano 

Mr. McBride. What year did Frank — was this here in Cleveland 
that they — I never heard of them being 

The Chairman. It seems like Frank Milano — I have some recol- 
lection that either he or Tony got down to Dallas and were trying 
to open up Dallas, Tex., with a fellow named Manno. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know Manno. 

Now, let me ask you this question : This is news to me. Did Mr. 
Milano get sent away from Cleveland? Was it in Cleveland he got 
sent away? 

I would like to know that, because I was in the newspaper business, 
and I never knew of it. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I would be glad to give you his record. 

The Chairman. We can make that an exhibit. 

Mr. Gallagher. You mean his record is going to be filed as an 
exhibit, Senator, because Mr. McBride has known him for 25 years, 
.and happened to put $200 in a loan company 20 years ago? 

The Chairman. No. We just want to put his record in our record. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 63 

Mr. Gallagher. But is this being incorporated as a part of Mr. 
McBride's position in your transcript? 

The Chairman. It would be filed in the back as an exhibit to testi- 
mony as we go along. 
Mr. Gallagher. Yes. 

(Record of Tony Milano is identified as Exhibit No. 35, and appears 
in the appendix on p. 455.) 

The Chairman. Of course, the record speaks for itself, whatever 
it is, Mr. Gallagher. 

Mr. Dempsey. Senator. I would like to suggest that if you ask any 
gentlemen of the press around here how many people he has known, 
and how long, you will get exactly the same testimony. 

The Chairman. Well, let me make it clear that except for what Mr. 
McBride says he knows in his business relations with Tony Milano, 
this would not be placed in the record, so that it appears that Mr. 
McBride has anything to do with these things that Mr. Milano has 
been charged with. 

All right ; let's proceed. 

Mr. McBride. May I ask a question ? 

The Chairman. Anyway, we don't seem to know anything about 
Frank Milano. The other one was Tony Milano. So let's get along. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, was Tony Milano in partnership with Al Polizzi 
at that coffee shop, or whatever it was ? 

Mr. McBride. I can't tell you. 

Mr. Xellis. But you just testified that you had heard of some gang 
killings there at Milano's Cafe? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; I read the papers. I was in the newspaper busi- 
ness at that time. 

Mr. Xellis. Now, did you at one time own a boat called the Wood 
Duck, or should it properly be described as a yacht ? 

Mr. McBride. I did. 

Mr. Gallagher. Not a 40-footer, Mr. Nellis, if you know anything 
about the water. That is a pretty lousy yacht. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you tell us what it was? 

Mr. McBride. It was a 40-foot boat. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you buy it ? 

Mr. McBride. I think about 1937 or 1938, some time around there. 

Mr. Nellis From whom ? 

Mr. McBride. A man by the name of Fisher, over in Detroit. 

Mr. Nellis. Who? 

Mr. McBride. Fisher— Fisher Body. 

Mr. Nellis. And that was what year, sir ? 1938 ? . 

Mr. McBride. I imagine it might have been 1938, 1939. I ain't got 
the year definite there. 

Mr. Gallagher. How much did you pay for it, Mr. McBride ? 

Mr. McBride. $8,000. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, did you ever hear that that boat — well, I with- 
draw that. 

Were you on that boat any time during the year 1939? Do you 
recall ? Did you use it regularly ? 

Mr. McBride. I imagine I did. 

Mr. Nellis. And did you use it for pleasure parties ? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 



64 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. For your own personal pleasure? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever entertain Al Polizzi on it? 

Mr. McBride. I imagine he was on it. I don't know. I wouldn't 
know whether he was on it or not. 

Mr. Nellis. Don't you recall ? 

Mr. McBride. I can't recall right now. That is 12 years. But I 
imagine he was on it. 

He is quite a fisherman ; I imagine he was on it. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever entertain John Angersola ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't remember whether John was on it or not. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever entertain George Angersola? 

Mr. McBride. I don't think George was ever on it, to my knowl- 
edge. 

Mr. Nellis. In 1940, you sold the boat to Fred Angersola? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you relate the circumstances of that? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I had the boat in Miami, and I was tired of it, 
and the war was coming on, so one day I got talking to Freddy — 
this is Freddy Angersola — and I said, "Freddy, I would like to get 
rid of that boat." 

He said, "What do you want for it?" 

I said, "What I pai*d for it." 

He come back the next day and said, "I will buy the boat off you." 
He bought the boat. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did he pav for it? 

Mr. McBride. $8,000. The same as 

Mr. Nellis. The same as you paid ? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. That is my recollection. 

Mr. Nellis. You made no profit? 

Mr. McBride. That is my recollection. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I asked you to bring your records. 

Mr. McBride. Well, what would you keep records on that for? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I ask you to examine these records and tell me 
whether they represent purchase and sale of that boat at various 
times. Do you recognize this ? 

Mr. Gallagher. At various times? You mean purchase with re- 
spect to Mr. McBride's purchase and sale? 

Mr. Nellis. That is right. 

The Chairman. Just state what it shows and ask him if it would 
be right. 

Mr. Nellis. This is a bill of sale dated 1949, the Tth day of June. 

Mr. Gallagher. What year? 

Mr. Nellis. 1949. It appears to be 1949. 

And it shows a 1947 Richardson boat. Is that another one? 

Mr. McBride. I ain't got no Richardson. This was a Piliot. 

Mr. Nellis. Is this your signature on this instrument [producing 
document] ? 

Mr. McBhide. Oh, yes; I know all about this. 

Mr. Nellis. What 'is that? 

Mr. McBride. That is a boat I had that I bought in 

Mr. Dempsey. That is not the Wood Duck. 

Mr. McBride. That is not the Wood Duck; this is a pleasure boat 
that I bought that I kept over here, and I had an accident with it and 
I sold it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 65 

Mr. Nellis. Who does that show you sold it to ? 

Mr. McBride. I had a man by the name of — oh, yes; Maurice 
Jones. 

I will tell you what I did. I think I traded a car from an agency 
down in Erie for that boat, Senator. 

The man that handled also — Rudy Arnold, who handled the High 
Level Motors agency, got this fellow and traded the boat for me. 

That is just a small boat. 

Mr. Gallagher. What kind of boat is that? 

Mr. Nellis. Now, is this the bill of sale referring to the sale of the 
yacht Wood Duck? 

Mr. Gallagher. The boat Wood Duck. 

Mr. Nellis. The boat Wood Duck. 

Can you identify that? 

Mr. McBride. That is 1947, isn't it ? 

Mr. Gallagher. This is 1947. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. Is that the other one? I am trying to find out 
now which boat this is. 

Mr. McBride. That ain't the Wood Duck. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, is this the Wood Duck that you sold to Freddy 
Angersola ? 

Mr. McBride. I will tell you ; I lent a fellow $2,500 to buy a boat. 
Rudy Arnold 

Mr. Gallagher. This is the sale of the second boat to Mr. McBride. 
You can see that this is sold by the Cleveland Boat Service, Inc. That 
is transferring the boat to him. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that a Richardson boat? 

Mr. Gallagher. It must be. That is still not the Wood Duck. 

Mr. Nellis. How about the 1940 bill of sale that you have there. 
Is that the Wood Duck? Is that your sale to Fred Angersola ? 

Mr. Dempset. July 1940. 

Mr. McBride. That is it. 

Mr. Nellis. All right.' May I have these three documents marked 
in evidence ? 

Mr. Gallagher. Which three documents? 

Mr. Nellis. The ones I just showed you. 

Mr. Gallagher. What do they have to do with this ? 

Mr. Demfsey. The other two have nothing to do with the Wood 
Duck, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. I want the other two in, also. 

The Chairman. Anyway, it may be that Mr. Nellis has some matter 
in connection with this person, so 

Mr. Gallagher. Well, let's hear what it is before he wants to put 
it in. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Gallagher, if you don't want them put 
in evidence, object and I will rule on it, 

Mr. Nellis. I will withdraw the other two. Let this one go in. 

The Chairman. No. If you want them in evidence they will be put 
in at this point. 

Mr. Nellis. I will put them in whenever the chairman wants them. 

(Records of transactions re the yacht Wood Duck, are identified 
as exhibit No. 36, and are on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Gallagher. Well then, let me object, Mr. Chairman, for the 
reason that I have seen no possible explanation of the relevancy. 



66 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Mr. Gallagher, we are not running the committee 
on what you see. We are running it on proof that we want to in- 
troduce. 

Mr. Nellis may have some connection between the matter of who this 
boat was sold to and something else. 

Mr. Gallagher. Don't you think Mr. McBride is entitled to hear 
what that is? He has testified. He has committed no crimes. 

The Chairman. Well, perhaps Mr. Nellis will ask him about it. 

But at the present time this Wood Duck bill will be put in the record. 
If Mr. Nellis wants to put the others in for the purpose of future 
reference, he can do so. 

Mr. Nellis. I will ask a question on this bill of sale dated July 2, 
19-17, Is that the boat you testified to previously, the Bichardson 
boat ? 

Mr. McBride. I think it is. I am not sure, but I had another boat 
that was a Richardson. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. Well, you have examined this instrument, have 
you not ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever entertained Al Polizzi, John Angersola, 
George Angersola on this boat? 

Mr. McBride. No, not as I know. 

Mr. Nellis. They have not been down to Florida ? 

Mr. McBride. That boat was never in Florida. That boat was out 
here at the yacht club. 

Mr. Nellis. In Cleveland ? 

Mr. McBride. In Cleveland. That boat never left here, 

Mr. Nellis. Well, did you entertain them here? 

Mr. McBride. Not that I know. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, did you ever hear that the yacht Wood Duck was 
used in 1939 by Polizzi, John and George Angersola, for the purposft 
of illegal flight from an indictment here? 

Mr. McBride. I saw it in the newspapers, but the boat was docked 
at the Fleetwood Hotel at the time, so they couldn't have used the 
Wood Duck. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the basis for the report at the time? Can 
you explain it to me ? 

Mr. Gallagher. Poor reporting, probably. 

Mr. McBride. Poor reporting, probably. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you own the boat at the time ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, I did. 

The Chairman. I want to get that straight. 

Now, you owned the boat, but it was reported that it was used for 
flight by them. 

Of course, they have skipped now. I don't know where they are 
now. They are down somewhere in Florida, presumably, but what 
was it about? 

Why did you let them have it, or did you let them have it? 

Mr. McBride. I didn't let them have it, Senator. It was docked, 
and I was using it in Miami at the Fleetwood Hotel. 

The Chairman. Well, did they have a right to use it? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Gallagher. Senator, I think you misunderstand. The flight 
was from up here. The boat was in Florida. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 67 

Mr. McBride. To run away from an indictment, and they went 
down through the canal and the Inland Waterway. 

The Chairman. Why would they be using your boat? 

Mr. McBride. It was in Florida. 

Mr. Demfsey. Senator, the newspaper report was just crazy. The 
boat was in Florida and they were up here. 

The Chairman. So anyway, your testimony is that it was incor- 
rect reporting. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Xeleis. Did you know that they had left this jurisdiction to 
avoid indictment ? They are good friends of yours. Didn't they ever 
tell you that ? 

Mr. McBride. No, they didn't. And furthermore, I didn't see them. 

Mr. Nellis. Polizzi never told you that he left this jurisdiction in 
order to avoid a grand jury indictment; is that right? 

Mr. McBride. Now, wait just a minute. Who are you talking 
about? There are two Polizzis. 

Mr. Nellis. I am talking about Al Polizzi. 

Mr. McBride. Was Al indicted at the time? 

Mr. Nellis. No. I am asking you whether you knew that he left 
Cleveland, allegedly on your boat, the Wood Buck, in order to 
evade indictment? 

Mr. McBride. He never did. 

Mr. Demfsey. Senator, I think Mr. Nellis knows you don't evade 
indictments by leaving the jurisdiction, a grand jury indictment not- 
withstanding. 

Mr. McBride. He is talking about a man that wasn't indicted, I 
don't think. 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking you whether or not he went for the pur- 
post of evading an indictment. 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you that. 

Mr. Nellis. Or not being present when the grand jury was called. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know anything about that. 

Mr. Gallagher. You haven't stated how he had gone. Mr. Mc- 
Bride stated the boat was in Florida. Let's keep that straight. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. McBride's testimony is that the boat is in Florida. 

Mr. McBride. That the boat is in Florida or was when they were 
indicted, supposed to have fled in this boat and went to Miami or went 
elsewhere with it. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. McBride, what business dealings have you had 
with M. J. O'Boyle, Martin J. O'Boyle? 

Mr. McBride. Martin J. O'Boyle is my neighbor, lived four doors 
away from me. I lent him $7,500. 

Mr. Nellis. To do what? 

Mr. McBride. He was building a bowling alley I think at the 
time and run short. 

Mr. Nellis. What was his business before that? 

Mr. McBride. I think at one time he was in the bootlegging busi- 
ness. 

Mr. Nellis. After that? 

Mr. McBride. I don't think he — he had a saloon and restaurant 
and bowling alley. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that Mr. O'Boyle had a long criminal 
record at the time you lent him this money ? 



68 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. I knew he was sent away for alcohol or something 
of that kind. I didn't know that he had a criminal record. What 
else was he sent away for? Marty CTBoyle you are talking about? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let's see his record. 

Mr. McBride. There are two O'Boyles there. There is a brother, 
too. 

Mr. Nellis. There is a John O'Boyle, isn't there? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know John O'Boyle also ? 

Mr. McBride. Met him. 

Mr. Nellis. Was he a gambler? 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you that. 

Mr. Nellis. Was he a bootlegger ? 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you that. I just met the gentleman. 

Mr. Nellis. Did M. J. O'Boyle proceed to build a bowling alley 
with the money ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; he built it and completed it. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he pay it back ? 

Mr. McBride. Pay what back? 

Mr. Nellis. The money you lent him. 

Mr. McBride. Oh, no. 

Mr. Nellis. Hasn't paid it ? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You made a claim against his estate for the payment 
of the money ? 

Mr. McBride. No, I didn't. 

Mr. Nellis. Why is that? 

Mr. McBride. The statute of limitations run out on it, No. 1. No. 
2 was I never sued nobody I don't think but one fellow in my life. 
That was a fellow that just tried to take me. It was a small deal. So 
Marty O'Boyle was a fellow, if you knew him, gentlemen, and anybody 
in this room that knew him, the mint couldn't make enough money. 
He would walk in a place, he would say, "Get me a drink," and lay 
down a hundred-dollar bill and say, "Keep it; ring it up." 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't that because he was a gambler and accustomed 
to handling big money ? 

Mr. McBride. No, he was a hard-working fellow. 

The Chairman. Marty O'Boyle? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, Marty O'Boyle. 

The Chairman. Which one did you lend money to ? 

Mr. McBride. Marty O'Boyle, Marty. 

The Chairman. Is that John O'Boyle? 

Mr. McBride. I think that is his brother, Senator. Wait just a 
minute, so we get this record clear. Has Marty O'Boyle done any- 
time outside of maybe doing a short time for bootlegging? 

Mr. Nellis. We will get to that in a minute. We have it in the file. 

The Chairman. This John O'Boyle, as you see here, has a terrifically 
long record. 

Mr. McBride. Why, he has, Senator. I understand that. I under- 
stand that. 

Mr. Gallagher. Mr. McBride testified he wasn't associated with 
him. 

Mr. Nellis. You met him? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 69 

Mr. McBride. Once. 

Mr. Gallagher. He had met him but was not associated with him. 

Mr. McBride. Once I met him on the street. Marty introduced me 
to him. 

Mr. Nellis. What business have you had with Mushy Wexler? 

Mr. McBride. I had business with Mushy Wexler, of course; he 
worked for me, to begin with. 

Mr. Nellis. That's right, you testified about that. 

Mr. McBride. No. 2, he come to me one time when he was short, he 
needed $10,000. I loaned it to him. 

Mr. Nellis. For what purpose ? 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you that. I think I loaned it to him 
personally the first time. He come back a short time later, a year 
or so. He said, "I need some help." He said, "Can you lend me 
another $10,000?" 

I said, "I will tell you what I will do you with you, Mushy. Go 
over to the Cleveland Trust Co. and I will sign your note." 

Mr. Nellis. Did he tell you what the purpose of the venture was ? 

Mr. McBride. No; he didn't. I think it was — he was remodeling 
his building there. He has got a saloon. 

Mr. Nellis. Did .you sign his note at that time at the Cleveland 
Trust? 

Mr. McBride. At the Cleveland Trust. I endorsed the note; yes. 
He paid it back. He paid it back. 

Mr. Nellis. When was that ? Shortly thereafter ? 

Mr. McBride. It must be 4 or 5 years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you have some income from a venture with him 
in 1944? 

Mr. McBride. I don't think so. 

Mr. Nellis. You listed it. 

Mr. McBride. It might have been tickets that he bought, football 
tickets. 

Mr. Gallagher. Wait a second. Listed what ? Wait a second. 

Mr. Nellis. Listed income, a joint venture. 

Mr. Gallagher. In what ? 

Mr. Nellis. With Mushy Wexler. 

Mr. McBride. What was it? 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking you, Mr. McBride. 

Mr. Gallagher. I will ask. What did he list it in ? 

Mr. Nellis. In his income-tax return for 1944. 

Mr. Gallagher. We will have no comment on the tax return, as far 
as counsel is concerned, from Mr. McBride. We are going to raise 
section 55 of the Revenue Code if there is any comment made in this 
public hearing about anything in the returns. There is nothing wrong 
with them. 

Mr. Nellis. Make your objection. 

Mr. Gallagher. I am stating my objection. I am putting you on 
notice. 

Mr. Nellis. What is Code 55 ? What is your objection ? 

The Chairman. Let's not argue. The question is, Did you have an 
enterprise with Mushy Wexler? 

Mr. McBride. How much is the interest on there? I might have 
charged him 



70 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Anyway, did you make some substantial amount in 
some enterprise with Mushy Wexler on some sport news company, 
wire service company, in which he was the operator? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I never had the Empire News or anything. 

Mr. Nellis. Sandusky Sport News ? 

The Chairman. Think the matter over, Mr. McBride. Mushy Wex- 
ler was the Sandusky 

Mr. Nellis. May 1 ask a question about Mr. Wexler ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know anything about that. I think there is 
some confusion there, Senator. It might have been the interest on 
the $10,000 loan that I made in there. 

Mr. Gallagher. I can give you a quick answer to your question. 

Mr. Nellis. May I ask the question ? 

The Chairman. We will get back to the Sandusky Sports News 
here, 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you have some income in 1944 from some kind 
of a venture with Morris Wexler, whatever the source of it was, what- 
ever the form of it was, whether it was dividends or interest or 
salaries? 

Mr. Gallagher. That is different than a venture. 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking Mr. McBride. Do you understand my 
question ? 

Mr. McBride. Could you tell me how much I got there ? And I can 
tell you. 

Mr. Nellis. No, sir ; I can't tell you how much you got. I am ask- 
ing you. 

Mr. Dempsey. Senator, I think there has been testimony that there 
were loans made and interest paid on them. If that is what is involved, 
we will endeavor to check it. 

Mr. McBride. Yes, $125. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that interest? 

Mr. McBride. He must have paid interest. 

Mr. Nellis. In 1944 on the $10,000 you lent him ; is that it ? d 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, Mr. McBride, what is the Sandusky Sport News 
at 34 North Sandusky Street, Columbus, Ohio? Did you ever hear 
of it? 

Mr. McBride. I used to own the Sandusky News. I don't know 
what that is, Sandusky Sports News. I can't figure what it is unless 
it is 

Mr. Nellis. What is the Sandusky News ? 

Mr. McBride. I sold it to Dudley White. 

Mr. Dempsey. What is the Sandusky News? 

Mr. McBride. It is a paper. 

Mr. Nellis. A newspaper? 

Mr. McBride. A newspaper. 

Mr. Nellis. Is it a daily paper? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

The Chairman. How much income did you make out of that? 

Mr. McBride. Oh, yes, I still get income out of it. 

I get $7,500 a year out of that and $150,000 paid over a period of 10 
years. 

The Chairman. Who did you sell it to? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 71 

Mr. MgBride. Dudley White, who was in Congress I think with 
you, was he not, Mr. Senator ? 

Hie Chairman. I don't remember Mr. White. 

Mr. Dempsey. It is a daily newspaper of general circulation in 
Sandusky. 

Mr. McBride. Yes, afternoon newspaper. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever had any business dealings with the 
Sandusky Sports News at 34 North Sandusky Street, Columbus, Ohio? 

Mr. McBride. Columbus, Ohio? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, Columbus, Ohio. Oh, I am sorry, Sandusky, 
Ohio, 34 North Sandusky Street. 

Mr. McBride. I think we keep some — I don't know of anything 
there. I can't figure out what it is unless you can enlighten me. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know John Chiare? Have you met John 
Chi are? 

Mr. McBride. I can't place the man. 

Mr. Nellis. C-h-i-a-r-e of Sandusky or Columbus. 

Mr. McBride. I might know him under some other name or might 
know him but I can't place him. 

The Chairman. Did this outfit or any down there that you had an 
interest in have any wire service, Mr. McBride ? 

Mr. McBride. Never had no wire service, never had any wire service, 
that is, for a bookmaker. 

The Chairman. I mean a subdistributor. 

Mr. McBride. I never had any. 

The Chairman. Wire service and pass it on to somebody else ? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

The Chairman. But you say that you had no interest in any place 
in Columbus or anywhere else ? 

Mr. McBride. Outside of owning the newspaper in Sandusky, the 
afternoon newspaper. 

The Chairman. They didn't get any wire service for the purpose of 
passing it on to bookmakers? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, I would like at this time to introduce 
in evidence a wire chart showing the services of Continental Press 
to an Ohio distributor. Unfortunately, Mr. Wexler is still evading 
the subpena of this committee and so we are going to be deprived for 
the time being of his testimony. However, another source of this 
information, Mr. Chairman, is the McFarland report, and it shows the 
Continental Press distributing horse race wire results to Empire Serv- 
ice Co., of which the missing witness is in charge, and then fanning it 
out to these people. 

I take it these are fictitious names. Our investigation has not dis- 
closed any identity for J. E. Edwards, William Kirtland, Crowley 
Publishing, or Periodical Distributors. 

From these drops, Western Union, one ticker circuit, 874 miles, we 
have 68 drops from Steubenville, Ohio, which services these cities. 

I am going to hold it up in a minute, gentlemen, so you can see it. 

Kirtland, 414 Ninth, Chester Building, Cleveland, Ohio, has one un- 
equipped circuit, 118 miles, services 49 drops. That services the City 
of Cleveland, Ohio,, and Cuyahoga County. 

The Crowley Publishing Co. of Steubenville is another one. Steu- 
benville, as you have observed, has one ticker, services 565 miles and 35 



72 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

drops with these cities of Pennsylvania, Kentucky, "West Virginia, 
Ohio. And that's it. 

Now, Periodical Distributors of Newport, Ky., that is a very im- 
portant place for this information to be, as will be developed in later 
testimony, services the area of Cincinnati and Newport, Ky., with 7 
Morse circuits, 22 miles, 27 drops, and the following areas. 

Mr. Chairman, these two are the crucial cities there as we will 
develop. 

The Chairman. You mean Newport and Covington ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, sir, Covington, Ky., and Newport. 

The Chairman. Let this chart be made a part of the record and 
you can refer to it. 

(The chart identified was thereupon received in evidence as exhibit 
No. 37, and appears in the appendix on p. 456.) 

Here is a picture you may be interested in seeing. 

Mr. McBride. This is all right. What's wrong with it? What's 
wrong with it ? 

The Chairman. I showed you a picture. I didn't intend to file it 
unless you want it filed. 

Mr. McBride. Let me look at it again. 

The Chairman. Is that a picture of you ? 

Mr. McBride. I misunderstood you. 

The Chairman. Who are some of the people in it? "Where was it 
taken ? 

Mr. McBride. It was taken in Coral Gables. There was Judge Gib- 
Ion there and his wife, my son. 

The Chairman. Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, Al Polizzi. That's him right, here, Al Polizzi. 
That's Bob Vinn. 

Mr. Gallagher. Who is this fellow ? 

Mr. McBride. That's Art. 

The Chairman. Speak up louder. I have been showing you the 
picture. I didn't know where it was. 

Mr. McBride. It was in Coral Gables, at a church. That was com- 
ing out of the church after they got married. 

The Chairman. This Robert G. Vinn is manager of the radio 
station WMIE which is your radio station? 

Mr. McBride. That's right, Senator. 

The Chairman. We have been referring to the picture, so let's 
just put that in evidence. 

(The picture identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 38, and is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. McBride, will j^ou relate to the committee the 
circumstances surrounding how you happened to come into Conti- 
nental Press Service? 

Mr. McBride. Well 

Mr. Gallagher. May I ask a question? Are we going to start 
taking up the Continental picture now? 

Mr. Nellis. No, let him answer the question. 

Mi". Gallagher. I was going to say that is going to be lengthy. I 
wonder if we could have a 5-minute recess for a drink of water. 

The Chairman. All right. We will have a 10-minute recess. 

(Short recess.) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 73 

Mr. Nellis. Before we recessed, Mr. McBride, I asked you to tell 
me how you happened to get into the Continental Press service. 

The Chairman. Just tell us what happened, Mr. McBride, how 
you got in the Continental Press, and what you did with your interest. 

Mr. McBride. Well, one night — my mother was sick, she had can- 
cer, and I used to go to Chicago every week, so on one of the week- 
end trips up there — my mother raised Tom Kelly's boy and his 
daughter, the mother died at childbirth, so Kelly happened to come 
in. I would say it was in November, the early part — before the 15th, 
I know. 

Mr. Nellis. What year, Mr. McBride ? 

Mr. McBride. 1939, I think. To make sure, I got it right here. 
In 19.39. The early part, I would say it would be about the 10th or 
12th of November 1939. 

Mr. Nellis. Go ahead, sir. 

Mr. McBride. So he told me about Mr. Annenberg was thinking 
about giving it up. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the name of his service ? 

Mr. McBride. Nation-wide. 

So Tom come in that night and — my mother first told me about 
Annenberg giving it up, I think — Tom come in that night and he 
talked to me about it, and I said, "Well, Tom, what do you think 
of it?" 

He said, "Well, we are going to throw a lot of people out of work," 
he said, "Including me." 

He said, "You know John Gordon and Abe Jaffe and them fellows 
pretty well." 

I said, "I do." 

He. said, "Gee, somebody ought to start from where they left off at 
and follow it through on it." 

So I said, "Well, I will talk to you later." 

So, my mother before I left she said, "You ought to try to do some- 
thing. It is no use getting all them fellows thrown out of the job." 

So I said, "All right." 

I went back to Cleveland, came back the next week, talked to Kelly 
and went down to the General News office. That was on about the 
14th, I would say. This might have been the 10th the gossip started. 

Mr. Nelis. Whose office did you go to, sir ? 

Mr. McBride. I went to Ragen's office at 512 South Dearborn 
Street. There I met young Ragen, James Ragen, Sr., and Tom Kelly, 
I think. So we sat down, and 

Mr. Nelis. Was anybody else there at that time, Mr. McBride? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know whether there were or not. 

We sat down and we discussed it. They wanted me to go into it, and 
I said, "Well, I don't know whether I want to go into it or not." I 
said, "I'll tell you, I got a lot of things to do. It is a big undertaking. 
I don't know whether it will click or not, may have a lot of trouble." 

So I said to James Ragen, Sr., I said, "Jim, will you run it if I go 
into it? He said, "No, I can't." I said, "Why?" He said, "Well, 
I am in trouble." 

Well, I said to James Ragen, Jr., I said, "Jim, you have been in this 
business all your life. This is the only thing you have ever done. 
How about you running it?" 



74 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of trouble did he say he was in ? 

Mr. McBride. Ragen? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. I think he was indicted for income tax. The case 
hadn't been tried yet, or he was on probation, either one or the other. 
I don't know which at this time ? 

So I finally said, "All right, I will take a chance at it, and we will 
start off, and we will see where we go." 

From there I went to the lawyer's office, talked to them. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were they ? 

Mr. McBride. Arthur. 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me, what was the firm ? 

Mr. McBride. The firm was Kahn, Dillon and Arthur, I think, but 
Arthur was the fellow 

Mr. Nellis. Where were they located, in Chicago? 

Mr. McBride. In Chicago Title & Trust Building. 

Mr. Nellis. Just the city. 

Mr. McBride. So T said to Arthur — he was a very able fellow, a 
brief man, a good lawyer — I said, "Arthur, I am thinking about going 
in this business and starting it and see what I can do with it. Which 
is the best way to start it? I want to get away — I think there can be 
enough made here on scratch sheets and newspapers and other pub- 
lications to make a fair living out of it." I said, "What would you 
think of — how would be the best way to set this up?" 

So he said, "Well, I think the logical thing to do would be to sell it 
to nobody but scratch-sheet operators." 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me? 

Mr. McBride. I said that he said, "I think the logical thing to set 
this up is to sell it to nobody but scratch-sheet operators, and that 
is all." 

Well, I have another lawyer here who I have a lot of confidence 
in, by the name of Merrick. He is with the firm of Halle, Haber & 
Merrick. 

Mr. Halley. Pardon me. Once before I had to clarify the record. 
That is not this Halley. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. It is spelled Halle. 

Mr. McBride. I think he spells it that way, is that right, Mr. Halley, 
I think he spells it the same as you do. 

Mr. Halley. I just know it is not me. 

Mr. McBride. I had come back to Cleveland in the meantime and I 
talked it over with Merrick, who, as a lawyer's lawyer is a good man, 
a good brief man. 

So Morris said, "Mickey, I think it is all right. I can't see any 
harm in it." 

So I went back to Chicago by plane, went back, and I said, "All 
right, I am ready, boys. Let's get the boys together." 

So we called in half a dozen boys that had charge of different ter- 
ritories. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is that, Mr. McBride? 

Mr. McBride. Well, we called in Brophy, Al Goodman. 

Mi-. Nellis. Where is he from? 

Mr. McBride. Al Goodman is or had the Metropolitan News Serv- 
ice. He was in the East. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 75 

Mr. Nellis. What city? 

Mr. McBride. New York, N. Y., and Philadelphia, 

Mr. Nellis. Would you 'identify these people as you go so I don't 
have to interrupt ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Tom Clark. He took the territory around Rochester and that terri- 
tory. He had certain territory that he took. 

VVexler took ( )hio. Al Jaffe took Indiana and that territory around 
there. Bill Wynch took the Miami Publishing Co. That was St. 
Louis and southwest through that country, and Brophy had practi- 
cally everything west. 

So that was the set-up. 

Mr. Nellis. You settled in California? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What happened then? Did you pay somebody for it? 

Mr. McBride. I come back and made a deposit of $20,000 and 
started the Continental News Service. That was on November 20, 
1939. I think it went out of business on the 15th of November 1939. 

Mr. Nellis. You mean Nationwide? 

Mr. McBride. Nationwide. Either it is the 11th or the 15th. It 
was out of business about 4 or 5 days. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did you pay for it— $20,000 ? 

Mr. McBride. I put in $20,000 to start it. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the total purchase price? 

Mr. McBride. There wasn't no purchase price. I paid nothing for 
it whatsoever. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the business of this interest you were buy- 
ing? What were they engaged in doing? 

Mr. McBride. I didn't buy any business. I started a new business. 
I started what they called the Continental Press. 

Mr. Nellis. You bought whatever there was from Nationwide? 

Mr. McBride. I didn't buy anything from Nationwide, not as much 
as a toothpick. 

Mr. Nellis. You started a new business? 

Mr. McBride. I started a new business. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the purpose of this new business? 

Mr. McBride. The purpose of this new business was to see that 
my brother-in-law and some other friends that I worked with for a 
long time would at least have a job at that time. It wasn't a long- 
range program with me at that time. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the function of the business? What did it 
do? Did it manufacture automobiles or 

Mr. McBride. No. The business gathered news of all sports. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of news? 

Mr. McBride. Racing news, baseball, football, all kinds of sport- 
ing news, and sold it to the United Press, the AP, six scratch sheets. 

Mr. Nellis. By what means did it gather the news ? 

Mr. McBride. It got the news out of the race track. 

Mr. Nellis. How? 

Mr. McBride. By either going in and paying a concession price or 
taking it out otherwise. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did it distribute this news ? 

68958— 51— pt. 6 6 



76 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. To the scratch-sheet operators. 

Mr. Nellis. The other men you have mentioned ? 

Mr. McBride. The other men I have mentioned. 

Mr. Nellis. What did they do with it? 

Mr. McBride. They run their scratch sheet with it. 

Mr. Nellis. What do you mean they run their scratch sheet ? 

Mr. McBride. They got out a scratch sheet that they sold to the 
public. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't they send that information out elsewhere ? 

Mr. McBride. I imagine they did. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, didn't you know what they were doing? 

Mr. McBride. I imagine that they 

Mr. Nellis. What were they doing, Mr. McBride? Let's not fence. 
Tell me what the persons who purchased 

Mr. McBride. I know what you are driving at. I never have been 
in a bookmaking joint in 25 years. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no doubt of that. 

Mr. McBride. All right. That is No. 1. 

Mr. Nellis. That may be very true. 

Mr. McBride. They bought the news, and no doubt they sold it to 
other people. Now, who they were I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. They bought the news and sold it to other people ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Gallagher. Were any of them bookmakers? 

Mr. McBride. Many of them were probably bookmakers ; there is no 
question about it. Certainly it eventually got to bookmakers. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, you held that Continental Press. Did you actively 
engage in its management? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I had Kelly in Cleveland, I had young Kagen 
in Chicago. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you take any active part at that time ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes._ 

Mr. Nellis. What were your duties ? 

Mr. McBride. Trying to get money in and trying to keep it going. 
We had tough struggling, too. 

Mr. Nellis. It was not a profitable venture ? 

Mr. McBride. It didn't lose money, but it didn't make much. 

Mr. Nellis. Koughly , how much did it make the first year you had it ? 

Mr. McBride. Oh, I think in them years— I think it made $16,000 
one year. Now, this is roughly. It didn't make money. 

Mr. Gallagher. I think it ran around 10,000 the first year and 
41,000 the second year, another year 31 and 60. 

Mr. Nellis. All right ; we have an idea. 

Now, Mr. McBride, you took an active part in the management of 
this business for a while ; is that right ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you continue to have an active part in it until the 
time 

Mr. McBride. You mean up to the time that I sold it to young 
Hagen ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. I had an active part in it up until the time I sold it 
to young Ragen. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 77 

Mr. Nellis. What happened then? You sold it to young Ragen 
about what year! 1 

Mr. McBride. I took in young Ragen as a partner, I think, in 1941, 
-and I sold out in 1942. I sold — well, cut this 1941. I sold out to 
young Ragen on August 22, 1942. 

Mr. Nellis. You sold out to him ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did you get for that interest? 

Mr. McBride. Well, Ragen had worked prior — for the period of 
3 years and didn't take anything out of the business, and they owned 
what they call Teletimer. At that time it looked like it would be a 
great thing. He owned half interest in Teletimer with a man by the 
name of Smuckler, and Teletimer was a machine that took pictures 
of the horses from the time they started until they finished, and their 
idea — Ragen's idea — was that it would take the place of racing form 
for no other reason than the racing form only gives you past perform- 
ances on the one, two, three horse. This would give you the past per- 
formance on the eighth, ninth, and tenth horses, whatever horses were 
in the race. 

So it looked like it might develop into a great thing, but it didn't. 

So I took that and I allowed him his salary of whatever it was, and he 
took it over from me. I think I got my $20,000 back that I put in 
originally to start it. 

Mr. Nellis. What happened then ? 

Mr. McBride. Then he had it until — he was sole owner until October 
31, 1943, when he added two partners. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were they ? 

Mr. McBride. James Ragen, Sr., and Eddie McBride. 

Mr. Nellis. Eddie McBride is your son ? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

So he asked me — or young Ragen came in here and he came to 
Cleveland, and he said, "Now, my dad has been talking to me. He 
wants you to go back in Continental." 

I said, "No ; I don't want it. I got a lot of things to do." 

He said, "Well, put one of your family in it. Put Eddie in it." 

I said, "Well, I don't know whether Eddie would want it or not. 
He is just going to war, and I don't know whether the boy wants it 
or not. His mind is confused and all." 

So he said, "I won't have it any other way but for one of the family 
to take an interest." 

I said, "How can the family help you ?" 

He said, "Strictly an investment, I will run it. James and I will 
run it. Eddie will get no salary. We will give him a third of the 
profits." 

I said, "Well, what price are you going to put on it, Jim ?" 

He said, "$50,000." 

I said, "I will talk to Eddie." 

I went home and talked to Eddie, and I called him up, I think, and 
went to Chicago and sat down with him. I said, "All right, Eddie 
will take a third." 

Mr. Nellis. What happened next? 

The Chairman. How much was paid? 

Mr. McBride. $16,000, or $16,033, I think. In that figure. It was 
a third of 50, Senator. 



78 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I said, "Well, now, Jim, you know Eddie can't be active in it, and 
you can't get no help from me. I got enough things to take care of." 

He said, "Eddie will never have to do a thing. Jim and I will take 
a salary out of it. Eddie does nothing." 

I said, "How much of a salary do you think you will have to have?"' 

He said, "I will have to have $1,000 a week, and I think Jim ought 
to have $500." 

I said, "That \s all right. I will talk that over with Eddie." 

And Eddie said, "That's all right." 

Mr. Nellis. You talked this all over with Eddie? 

Mr. McBride. Why, certainly. I was going to talk it over with him. 

Mr. Nellis. How old was he at that time ? 

Mr. McBride. I would say about 19, maybe 20 ; I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Was he going to school ? 

Mr. McBride. He was at Notre Dame, but he was drafted and sent 
to war. He spent 3 years and 11 months in the Army as a gunner. 

Mr. Nellis. You talked that over with him at that time ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; sure. 

Mr. Nellis. And he agreed ; is that right ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. What happened next, Mr. McBride? You went into 
the deal, didn't you? 

Mr. McBride." Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What happened after that ? 

Mr. McBride. Well. Ragen. Sr., and James Ragen, Jr., run it. 

Mr. Nellis. That was from 1943 on? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What year was James Ragen. Sr., killed ? 

Mr. McBride. I think 1947. 

Mr. Dempsey. 1946. 

Mr. McBride. 1946. 

Mr. Nellis. 1946. Do you know anything of the circumstances of 
that homicide ? 

Mr. McBride. I know that they pulled up alongside of him and 
shot him — Thirty-ninth and State in Chicago. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you any idea why anyone should do that ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I haven't. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever thought about it ? 

Mr. McBride. Sure, I thought about it. 

Mr. Nellis. He was a good friend of yours, was he not ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. You have known him for years ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. He was instrumental in a large number of your trans- 
actions prior to that time ; isn't that right ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right — just what do you mean? 

Mr. Nellis. You were in business transactions with him prior to 
(hat time, weren't you ? You just testified that you were. 

Mr. McBride. Just a minute. What business do you mean ? 

Mr. Nellis. Ones you just testified to. 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nkllis. AihI you thought highly of him, didn't you? 

Mr. McBride. Very highly. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 79 

Mr. Nellis. Do you ever wonder what happened? Have you ever 
wondered ? 

Mr. Mc Bride. Yes ; I have wondered. 

Mr. Nellis. You have no theories on it ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't have any. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, sir. Did there come a time when young Mc- 
Bride, Edward McBride, took over the entire enterprise ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Tell me about that. 

Mr. McBride. I think sometime in March of 1947 young Ragen and 
Arthur came to Miami and visited me, called me up, with Tom Kelly; 
or Tom come alone, I don't know which. James Ragen, Jr., wanted 
to get out, and he wanted to know if Eddie would buy it. It seems 
as though, in the contract that they had drawn, that had either one of 
them died that the other had first option to buy his part of it, and that 
was made on the theory of keeping out people that were undesirable 
so they couldn't get their foot in the door and want to run this business. 

So they talked to me about buying it, and I said, "Well, I don't 
know. I will talk to Eddie, see what he has to say." 

They put a price on it, I think, at that time. So I said, "I will tell 
you what you do. I am going to leave here. I imagine the latter part 
of March I will be up in Cleveland." 

We set a date, and I met them. I met Arthur, Kelly, and I think 
James Ragen, Jr. I'm not positive, but I think he was there. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you talk this over with Eddie ? 

Mr. McBride. I talked it over with Eddie in the meantime, and I 
said, "Eddie, what do you think of it?" 

And he said, "Well, I will be getting out of school. I will have to 
have some place to go." 

He said, "I will take a shot at it if vou think that it would be all 
right." 

I said, "Well " 

Mr. Nellis. Would you say you had several conferences with him 
during this time and the previous time? 

Mr. McBride. With who ? 

Mr. Nellis. With Eddie. 

Mr. McBride. No : I don't think I had several. 

Mr. Nellis. But you discussed it with him ? 

Mr. McBride. I discussed it with him. 

Mr. Nellis. He testified previously before the FCC and the com- 
mittee here that he didn't know anything about it. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know anything about it. Tom Kelly runs it. 

You are talking about the operation of the business? 

Mr. Nellis. But you discussed it with him ; you must have 

Mr. McBride. I didn't discuss the operations with him. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you discuss what business you were going into ? 

Mr. McBride. I discussed the Continental Press, which was a news 
service. 

Mr. Nellis. He must have had to have some judgment on what he 
was getting into in order to advise you intelligibly on whether or not 
he wanted to 

Mr. Dempsey. May I suggest, Mr. Nellis, that you are attempting 
to make an argument with the witness. 



80 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. As I remember, the young man testified he didn't 
remember anything about the operations of it, and he really didn't 
remember anything much about what he was buying. He just signed a 
lot of papers and got the business. 

Mr. McBride. That could be true. The boy had never had nothing 
to do with the business from an operation standpoint. He knew it 
was a news service. 

The Chairman. He left everything to you and Uncle Tom? 

Mr. McBride. That is about right. That is absolutely right. 

Mr. Nellis. Go ahead. What happened then? 

Mr. McBride. We bought the business. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is "we" ? 

Mr. McBride. I mean he bought the business. 

Mr. Nellis. Eddie bought the business ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did he get the money ? 

Mr. McBride. He didn't have to have any money. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did he pay for it ? 

Mr. McBride. The contracts are there, I think. 

Mr. Nellis. Can't you just tell me, Mr. McBride ? 

Mr. Gallagher. Can't we use your exhibit which you prepared 
from the documents we gave you in Chicago I 

I think that would be a little helpful. 

Mr. Nellis. Can you tell us 

Mr. Gallagher. I doubt that he remembers it, frankly. If you 
want it roughly 

Mr. Nellis. Advise with Mr. McBride, and perhaps you can re- 
fresh his memory. 

Mr. McBride. To the Ragen estate he paid $215,000 in nine annual 
payments plus 6 percent interest, and James Ragen. Jr.. the later 
price being $130,000 in 10 annual payments plus 6 percent interest. 

Also a James Ragen, Sr.-Edward McBride noncompetitive con- 
tract under which Ragen was to receive $5,000 a year for 5 years. 

Mr. Nellis. $200,000 

The Chairman. $215,000. 

Mr. McBride. To the Ragen estate. 

Mr. Demfsey. Total of some 360. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes; about 360, but $200,000 plus those other items — 
$215,000. 

Where did he get the money to buy that business ? 

Mr. Demfsey. Mr. Nellis, it is paid periodically out of the business. 

Mr. McBride. It is shown here. 

Mr. Gallagher. It is paid out of the net income. 

Mr. McBride. When he bought the business, he bought whatever 
he had in the business, the houses he had, the property they had, what- 
ever cash they had, and everything else. 

Mr. Gallagher. To be paid out of income. 

Mr. McBride. To be paid out of income. 

Mr. Nellis. That is the information I want. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Gallagher. They are in the contracts. 

Mr. McBride. Mr. Halley knows all that. 

Mr. Nellis. Has he taken no active part in this business? 

Mr, McBride. Not yet ; no r 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 8.1 

Mr. Nellis. I think that is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The first $16,000— you put that up for him? 

Mr. McBride. Yes; I did, Senator. I loaned it to him and got a 
note. 

Mr. Gallagher. He paid it back with interest? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. I have been wondering, Mr. McBride. You say that 
when you had the Continental Press it wasn't very profitable ; is that 
right? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And then you sold out to Ragen, Jr. ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. And then about a year later Ragen, Sr., came here 
and said he wanted you in the picture ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. All the deals with the juniors look to me like fronts 
for a lot of transactions between the seniors; isn't that right? 

Mr. McBride. Well, they might look like that to you, but the se- 
niors — I am one senior, I never got a penny out of it, so therefore I 
couldn't be in the business. 

Now. the other business 

Mr. Halley. The seniors did all the talking, did they ? 

Mr. McBride. Mostly all. 

Mr. Halley. Not mostly ; they did 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. I don't know about Ragen, Jr., but certainly McBride,, 
Jr., didn't open his mouth at any time, That is his testimony and 
everybody else's. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Gallagher. Isn't it a fact that the Treasury Department, as 
you know, has checked these returns with Edward back through 1949 
and found that he has paid his tax on it and received money on it 
and 

Mr. Halley. Please. You know very well what I am getting at. 
Let's not argue, and let's get along. 

Mr. McBride. I set him up in business ; we will put it that way. 

Mr. Halley. Sure you did, and you arranged it with Ragen, Sr. ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. So that any talking as far as policies are concerned 
was between Ragen, Sr., and McBride, Sr. ; is that right? 

Mr. McBride. No, sir. I had no policy at all. What do you mean, 
policy ? 

Mr. Halley. The policies of making the sales and making the 
purchases. 

Mr. McGuire. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. That is what I am talking about at the moment. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And then in 1943 when Ragen, Sr., and McBride, Sr., 
decided that McBride, Jr., would buy one-third interest in the Con- 
tinental Press, I think you have just testified that was because Ragen, 
Sr., felt that he wanted some member of your family in the picture; 
is that right ? 

Mr. McBride. I think so. 



'82 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Haixey. You made it clear to Ragen, Sr., that you had no time 
or energy for Continental Press at that time? 

Mr. McBride. Think so ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you made it clear that your son had no time or 
•energy for it ? 

Mr. McBride. Therefore he would draw no salary, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Despite that, Ragen, Sr., wanted some member of your 
family in the picture ; is that right? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. I can't understand why. 

Mr. McBride. Well, we had been friends for a long time. That 
would be No. 1. 

Mr. Halley. That is not a very good reason, is it ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. I can't tell what was going through 
the man's mind, but we have been very friendly. 

Mr. Halley. Let's go back a bit. During the war the Capone gang 
in Chicago began to regain strength, didn't it? 

Mr. McBride. That was what war are you talking about? 

Mr. Halley. World War II. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Halley. You remember it was quite a powerful gang originally 
when Al Capone was alive ; that is the matter of common knowledge ; 
-and then suffered somewhat of a decline after Capone 

Mr. McBride. I wouldn't know anything about it. 

Mr. Halley. Went to jail. 

Well, you read the newspapers, don't you ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; but I never read that in the newspapers. 

Mr. Halley. You don't think they had any decline at all ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. And that they remained really powerful throughout? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know what happened. 

Mr. Halley. Well, James Ragen was a pretty good friend of yours, 
wasn't he ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. As a matter of fact, Tom Kelly is related to you by 
marriage; is that right? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. He married your sister ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And Tom was really Ragen's right-hand man? 

Mr. McBride. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. And Ragen didn't get along very well with the Capone 
gang, did he? 

Mr. McBride. He had friction. 

Mr. Halley. Well, enough friction to get Ragen bumped off, in 
fact ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I don't know who bumped him off. 

Mr. Halley. Well, isn't it a fact ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know, Mr. Halley. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Gallagher. We have gone through this before in Chicago and 
elsewhere. Now you are stating, "Isn't it a fact ?" 

How can this man know what is a fact if the Police Department of 
Chicago and the district attorney never— — 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 83 

The Chairman. It is easy for him to say whether he knows or not. 

Mr. Halley. I am willing to stipulate for the record that we have 
proved all this in Chicago, but we have a new witness here, and I 
think for the record we should get his views. 

Mr. Dempsey. If you proved the killer of Ragen in Chicago, you 
must have failed to "notify the police, because they haven't arrested 
him yet. 

Mr: Hallet. Thank vou. 

Now, I think we proved this in Chicago. Did you read the record? 

Mr. McBride. What record? 

Mr. Halley. Of the Chicago hearings? 

Mr. McBride. Not all of them, Mr. Halley. I read some of it. 

Mr. Halley. You are represented, of course, by the same counsel 
who represented Continental Press? 

.Air. McBride. That's right. 

Air. Halley. And have been for some time? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. In Chicago it was brought out, as your counsel un- 
doubtedly advised you, that Mr. Ragen made a statement to the 
police 

Mr. Gallagher. I will state I made no statement to Mr. McBride 
about that at all. 

Mr. Halley. Well, I will tell him. 

Mr. Gallagher. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Will you keep quiet long enough for me to tell him? 

Now, in Chicago it was testified that McBride made a long, de- 
tailed 

Mr. McBride. That Ragen 

Mr. Halley. That Ragen made a long detailed statement to the 
police, that he was in mortal fear of his life from members of the 
Capone gang. 

He specifically mentioned Di Carlo, Humphries, Guzik. 

Tom Kelly testified, and Dan Serritella — Do vou know Dan Ser- 
ritella ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, I do. 

Air. Halley. Testified in corroboration of Ragen's fears. Serri- 
tella testified about being a go-between in conversations between 
Ragen and Guzik, and Ragen testified about attempts made by Serri- 
tella to arrange meetings between him and DiCarlo. 

Are those matters all known to you? 

Mr. McBride. No; they haven't been known to me. 

Mr. Halley. Don't you think it has been your business to know 
those things about the affairs that you put your son into? 

Air. Dempsey. Air. Halley, may I ask that you clear the record? 

Air. Kelly we represented. 

Air. Serritella's testimony is unknown to us. 

Air. AIcBride. I know Air. Halley, there was trouble, but I don't 
know what it was about. 

Mr. Halley. Did not even Tom Kelly tell you that Air. Ragen was 
practically, I think, to quote Tom Kelly, that Ragen was practi- 
cally living with agents of the FBI for many months before he was- 
killed? 

Air. AIcBride. I heard that, yes. 



84 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. And then Ragen was killed ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. • 

Mr. Hlley. I have been trying to ascertain or to work up to my 
own thinking whether or not the reason Ragen needed McBride in 
Continental Press was to get some friends who could talk to the 
Capone mob. 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Halley, aren't you confusing the dates? 

Mr. Halley. Let me ask the question. I made the statement 

Mr. Dempsey. The statement was in 1943 you are talking about. 
This other busines is 1946. 

Mr. Halley. It was brewing. It started brewing earlier. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is new testimony, then. 

The Chairman. Let him ask the question. 

Mr. McBride. For the record I don't know anybody in the Capone 
gang. Does that clear it up ? 

Mr. Halley. Well, not quite. What have your relations been with 
Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, as I told you before, Al Polizzi sold papers for 
me. I knew him for a period of over 30 years, and we were always 
very friendly. 

Mr. Halley. You had various business transactions, as you 
testified ? 

Mr. McBride. Real-estate business. 

Mr. Halley. Real estate? 

Mr. McBride. That is about all that I can think of. 

Mr. Halley. In effect, you trusted each other and dealt with each 
other? 

Mr. McBride. He was a good worker. 

Mr. Halley. On a friendly basis? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. He was a good worker and I always 
admired the fellow. 

Mr. Halley. And I think that you have testified that you were on 
pretty friendly terms with one of the King brothers. 

Mr. McBride. That is right ; with all three of them, but with two 
particularly. 

Mr. Halley. And which were the two particularly ? 

Mr. McBride. Freddy King worked for me on the News for a 
period of years in the circulation department. He had charge of the 
east side. 

When I went in the cab business, he went in the cab business as a 
road man. 

Johnny, I knew him from the time he cleaned the buildings. I 
was friendly with him during those years. 

Mr. Halley. Now, did your friendship with Angersola and Polizzi 
have anything to do with Ragen's insistence that you get back into 
the picture and help out? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Halley. I can't for the world see what he needed you for if 
you weren't going to do any work, if your son wasn't going to do 
any work. 

Mr. McBride. Well, a lot of times friends want you to go in cer- 
tain tilings because you have been friendly with them for a long 
time. 

Mr. Halley. Just for good old friendship? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 85 

Mr. McBride. Well, we have been pretty friendly. 

Mr. Halley. You have been pretty friendly. Now, Ragen didn't 
need money ? 

Mr. McBride. No, I don't think he did. 

Mr. Halley. He had plenty of money. 

Mr. McBride. Well, I don't know whether he had cash or not. 
He had securities, I guess. 

Mr. Halley. The deal wasn't to get money into Continental? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Halley. It was to get you, your family, into Continental; is 
that right ? 

Mr. McBride. Apparently so, yes. 

Mr. Halley. And wasn't Ragen hoping that if any shooting started, 
he could hide behind the skirts of the McBrides? 

Mr. McBride. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't he ever tell you that ? 

Mr. McBride. No, definitely not. No. 

Mr. Gallagher. May I ask a question? Isn't it true that after a 
time that Teletimer stock which you took, along with $25,000 you 
put up, looked to be and became a worthless set-up ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

The Ciiatrmax. Became a what? 

Mr. Gallagher. Became a worthless set-up. 

Mr. McBride. In other words, it didn't work out like we thought it 
would. 

Mr. Dempsey. I think. Senator, that it is important just for the 
record to have the chronology. 

Mr. Ragen, Sr., and Eddie McBride, Jr., came in as partners at the 
same time in 1943. I have never heard until today any suggestion that 
any trouble between Ragen and anybody over Continental Press 
started before late 1945. 

Mr. Halley. Ragen wasn't getting along with the Capone boys. 

The Chairman. You see, Hymie Levin and Guzik and Katz and 
somebody else, who had — what was it ? The R & H ? 

Mr. Halley. The R & H. 

Mr. Dempsey. I didn't understand it was happening in 1943. 

Mr. Halley. Well, let me go ahead. Every time we have some 
trouble, with a question, then we get off the track. 

Mr. Dempsey. Well, it is always some trouble when you try to 
scramble dates, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. This whole Continental Press, that is a pretty big 
■business, isn't it, Mr. McBride ( 

Mr. McBride. It developed into a pretty big business. 

Mr. Halley. Well, even when you first took it over it had a large 
number of leased wires, did it not? 

Mr. McBride. We didn't have any leased wires at that time. We 
•did all our business over the telephone. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you have any Western Union wires? 

Mr. McBride. I don't think they would give us wires at that time. 
We were under indictment. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have a telephone arrangement? 

Mr. McBride. No. We used the telephone, just got our information 
from the race track and got on the telephone and called in to the 
nearest subscriber, and he called on. 



86 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Well, how did Continental distribute it ? 

Mr. McBride. Over the telephone. 

Mr. Halley. By calling people up ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you lease telephone wires ? 

Mr. McBride. No. We couldn't get any wires. 

Mr. Halley. You had no wires at all ? 

Mr. MeBride. No. 

Mr. Halley. How soon after did you acquire them? 

Mr. McBride. After the indictment was quashed. I think the Postal 
gave us wires, and the Western Union. The Postal, I think, were 
in business at that time. 

Mr. Halley. Prior to the indictment also Nationwide had wires, 
did it not ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; they had Western Union wires. 

Mr. Halley. There were establishments for collecting news; it 
that not right? 

Mr. McBride. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. There were a large number of employees ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And the annual turn-over ran into many hundreds of 
thousands of dollars of business, did it not ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. That business was just abandoned by Annenberg? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. He was indicted for an income-tax violation; is that 
right? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. He felt that because of his situation with the Depart- 
ment of Justice he had better get out of the racing wire business? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. He just walked out ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And it just dropped into your lap ; is that right? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. How do you account for the fact that this business 
intact was able to be taken over by you ? 

Mr. McBride. Well 

Mr. Dempsey. Mr. Halley, it wasn't the same business at all as I 
think this record 

The Chairman. Mr. Dempsey, let the witness testify. 

Mr. McBride. It was a different business, Senator. We started in 
the scratch-sheet business and he give it up and we started Continental 
Press. 

Mr. Halley. Now, look; we really shouldn't have to go over all the 
ground we did in Chicago. 

Mr. Dempsey. That is the point I was trying to make, Senator. 

Mr. Halley. We do, though, when each new witness on Continental 
goes back to that old story which just doesn't hold water. 

Mr. Dempsey. It is true now as it was then, Mr. Halley, and you 
know it and have no evidence to present. 

Mr. Halley. That scratch-sheet business was just a dodge erected 
by counsel in order to put Continental Press one step away from the 
bookie. Isn't that so? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 87 

Mr. Dempset. You have expressed that theory before. 

Mr. McBride. Mr. H alley, what difference would it make whether 
Continental went direct to the bookmaker providing it went in States 
that it was legal ? 

Air. Halley. You testified a little while ago 

Mr. McBride. I am asking you that question. 

Mr. Halley. I am asking you a question and I think you will 
answer your own question by answering mine in the proper fashion. 
You testified a little while ago that when you originally negotiated 
to go into the Continental business, you saw a lawyer; is that right? 

Mr. McBride. Lloyd ? 

Mr. Halley. A lawyer. 

Mr. McBride. Oh, yes ; a lawyer, yes. 

Mr. Halley. That he advised that the way to set up the business of 
Continental was to sell only to scratch sheets ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Prior to that xVnnenberg had sold directly to bookies? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. As a matter of fact, Annenberg made a practice of 
owning part of the stock of each one of his distributors? 

Mr. McBride. (Nodding head affirmatively.) 

Mr. Halley. Isn't that so? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know- that. He might have owned some, Mr. 
Halley, and some he didn't own. I couldn't tell you that. 

Mr. Halley. He made a pretty general practice of it? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And Ragen did it with him ; they were right in there 
with it ? 

Mr. McBride. That could be possible. 

Mr. Halley. With the ultimate distributor of the News to the 
bookie ? 

Mr. McBride. That could have been possible. 

Mr. Halley. Then you saw a lawyer, and I am not criticizing the 
lawyer but he attempted to set up a legal protection for the top com- 
pany and he said. ''Let's sell only to scratch sheets"; isn't that right? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And the scratch sheet just happened also to distribute 
that news on to people w T ho then sold it to bookies ; isn't that right? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. This w r as an effort to build up a top company which 
would appear to be, shall we say, insulated from anything that had to 
do with gambling? 

Mr. McBride. ( Nodding head affirmatively. ) 

Mr. Halley. Is that right ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right- 
Mr. Halley. And that top company you then set up as Continental ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. But as far as the press was concerned, as far as the 
customers were concerned, as far as the operations were concerned, 
it w T as the same old Nationwide outfit, lock, stock, and barrel, wasn't 
it? 

Mr. Gallagher. There are only six customers. 

Mr. McBride. There are only six customers. Now, wait, there is 
six customers. 



88 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You reset it up and instead of the set-up that Annen- 
berg had, your lawyer said, "Now, don't do it this way, set it up with 
these customers who will be your scratch-sheet people and we will put 
the other customers one step further away," but ultimately it was the 
same gang who was doing the business, wasn't it ? 

Mr. McBride. I wouldn't say the same gang doing the business. 
They had officers in every city in the United States. 

Mr. Halley. Shall we say the same group of gentlemen ? 

Mr. McBride. Well 

Mr. Halley. You know it was. I mean, let's not fence about it. 

Mr. Dempsey. I would like to suggest that Mr. Halley if he has 
read the reports on the Nation-wide operation would know that there 
were very essential differences, tremendous differences in income, tre- 
mendous differences in organization and set-up, and it isn't the same 
business, and why argue with Mr. McBride? The facts are here. 

The Chairman. I think the facts were that we have these corpora- 
tions or distributors like the Bryant News Co., and some other com- 
pany out in Illinois, and some way or another Continental put up the 
money to enable these people to buy the stock and then they got a cer- 
tain amount and they paid back an indeterminate amount to Conti- 
nental. 

Mr. Dempsey. I have no quarrel with the facts. 

The Chairman. That is in the record. 

Mr. Dempsey. It is Mr. Halley's opinion that he is trying to put in 
Mr. McBride's mouth. 

Mr. Halley. I am going to succeed in putting it in his mouth ; at 
least I am going to try awfully hard. 

Mr. Dempsey. You put it in his ears long enough and something is 
likely to come out. 

The Chairman. All right. We are getting along all right. 

Mr. Halley. The fact is that the lawyer set it up differently but it 
was the same group of people doing the same basic job, collecting 
news at race tracks and selling it through various channels to bookies, 
isn't that the fact? 

Mr. McBride. Well, naturally, the news eventually went to the 
bookies. 

Mr. Halley. And it was the same group of people doing it ? 

Mr. McBride. Oh, I wouldn't say that. There were a lot of dif- 
ferences. There may have been some of the fellows that went out 
entirely and new ones come in from the standpoint 

Mr. Halley. I understand there were some changes but essentially 
it was the same basic group ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; I think you are right. 

Mr. Halley. When Annenberg went out of that business, it had a 
certain value, it was a going concern with a lot of good will in cer- 
tain areas and a developed organization, wasn't it? 

Mr. McBride. Yes; it needed organization. 

Mr. Dempsey. No; I don't think you heard his question. 

Mr. Halley. He had a developed organization. It needed new man- 
agement — the old management was going to jail. 

Mr. McBride. It had no assets. It had 

Mr. Halley. It had good will, it had customers. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 89 

Mr. McBride. Well, I don't know. The customers were pretty well 
shot. The customers, we had to start out and get new customers be- 
cause their lawyers all went down. 

Mr. Halley. Now, wait a minute. 

Mr. McBride. Now, wait. 

Mr. Halley. You had time here. Let's take them then. 

Mr. McBride. Yes, but you are talking about the Annenberg set-up 
now where he went into each and every city. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. And he checked his business with the telephone 
company. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. To find out who was getting service and who wasn't. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. A lot of them fellows fell by the wayside. 

Mr. Halley. A lot stayed with you. 

Mr. McBride. Some of them stayed. 

Mr. Halley. All right. Now, no effort was made by the Annen- 
berg family to sell out of that business, they just wanted it turned 
over to friendly hands, didn't they? 

Mr. McBride. I had no dealings whatsoever with the Annenbergs, 
Annenberg gave up the business on the 15th, and he was on the way 
to the penitentiary by the 20th — or the 15th he was on the way to the 
penitentiary. 

Mr. Halley. And on the 20th you bought it or stepped in ? 

Mr. McBride. On the 20th I started ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you started ? 

Mr. McBride. He didn't give up the business until about a day or 
two before he went in and pleaded guilty in Federal court. 

Mr. Halley. How long were you negotiating with Ragen whether 
or not you would start it '( 

Mr. McBride. Maybe 2 weeks. 

Mr. Halley. So that at least before Annenberg went off to the 
clink, you were talking about going into this business ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. But you didn't talk to Annenberg ? 

Mr. McBride. Never. 

Mr. Halley. You did talk, however, to the man who had been a 
very close associate with him in the business, Ragen? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. You had yourself known Ragen for many, many 
years ? 

Mi*. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. You both had been in the news business here in Cleve- 
land ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Had you been in any business together, you and 
Ragen, prior to that ? 

Mr. McBride. We had some real estate together. 

Mr. Halley. You had some real estate together ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You were pretty good friends ? 

Mr. McBride. We worked together. He was circulation manager 
of the Leader News in Cleveland — or the Leader Daily and Sunday > 
and I was circulation manager of the News. 



'90 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. And your brother-in-law was working with Ragen? 
Mr. McBride. On the Chicago Examiner. Ragen left here to go 
to Chicago as circulation manager of the Examiner. 

Mr. Halley. And then Tom Kelly went 

Mr. McBride. Went to work. 

Mr. Halley. With Ragen and Annenberg on the wire service? 
Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. This whole wire service was very closely connected 
with the news distribution business, was it not? 

Mr. McBride. You mean with the circulation of newspapers? 
Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. It fits in with that kind of a business, yes. 
Mr. Halley. Why does it fit in so well ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, with the circulation of the newspapers you are 
trying to get your papers on every point that you can sell any papers 
and you are planting seeds all the time for your circulation to grow, 
your new neighborhoods, new business districts, town growing. Well, 
this business from the selling point, you are out looking for customers 
all the time. 

Mr. Halley. Aren't your customers pretty well grouped around 
the people who are buying scratch sheets from newsstands? I think 
Dan Sarritella testified— — 

Mr. McBride. Yes, I guess you are right on that, Mr. Halley. I 
think you are right. 

Mr. Halley. I think Dan Sarritella testified 

Mr. McBride. It all fits in, racing forms, scratch sheets fits in. 
Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. Newspapers fit in more than anything else ; they pro- 
mote it. There is no reason for a newspaper in Cleveland printing 
the results of a Miami race track today. There is nobody interested 
in it but gamblers and bookies or bettors and gamblers. 

Mr. Halley. And if you can get to the newsstands with the scratch 
sheet that has that news right up to the minute, and a lot more news 
than the newspapers give, the newsstands are going to get to the people 
who are interested in betting? 

Mr. McBride. That's right, that's right. The bettor will buy every- 
thing that he thinks can learn him which horse is going to win. 

Mr. Halley. As a matter of fact, I think Dan Sarritella testified 
that a great many of the bookies, at least in Chicago, got their start as 
newsboys. 

Mr. McBride. That's right, that's right. You will find the same 
thing here in bookmakers, or any other city, wagon drivers. 

Mr. Halley. The circulation business was a fairly rough business, 
wasn't it? 
Mr. McBride. Well, you had to work. 

Mr. Halley. You had to be handy with your dukes, didn't you ? 
Mr. McBride. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you had to be in a position to keep your news- 
boys from having their stands 

Mr. McBride. You couldn't be a weakling or — you couldn't be a 
weakling, I will say that. I will answer it that way. 
Mr. Halley. You had to be able to defend yourself physically? 
Mr. McBride. That's riffht. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 91 

Mr. Halley. And the same thing was pretty well true of the wire 
service. You wouldn't last in the bookmaking business unless } T ou 
were able to keep other people from 

Mr. McBride. In the bookmaking business? 

Mr. Halley. That's right. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know anything about the bookmaking busi- 
ness. I never bet on horses, I don't go into bookmakers' places. 

Mr. Halley. You sell the service. 

Mr. McBride. I never sell them no service. 

Mr. Halley. It was going to the bookmakers; you knew it? 

Mr. McBride. Evidently it did but I didn't — I have nothing to do 
with selling to any bookmakers. 

Mr. Halley. You know enough about the bookmaking business from 
what you read in the newspapers to know that a bookie has got to be 
able also to protect himself. 

Mr. McBride. That's right, but a bookie can get along without that 
service. 

Mr. Halley. The testimony we have is he doesn't get along well 
enough to compete with the fellow who has it. 

Mr. McBride. Well 

Mr. Gallagher. That wasn't the testimony from Mr. Warren Olney, 
general counsel of the California Crime Commission. He testified- 



Mr. McBride. There is more bettors in Miami today than there was 
was before this started. There is a bookmaker on every corner in 
Miami, now, and I just come from there. 

Mr. Halley. Are you testifying as of your own knowledge? 

Mr. McBride. What I see driving down the street. 

Mr. Halley. How do you know how many there were before this 
started? 

Mr. McBride. They weren't on corners, they were in hotels. 

Mr. Halley. They were nicely set up in the hotels, isn't that right ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. Now they are out on the street. 

Mr. Halley. Getting down to the business at hand, isn't it a fact 
that the same group of men who grew up in this news distribution 
business with Annenberg as something of the grand-daddy of you 
all 

Mr. McBride. He wasn't grand-daddy to me. I started him. 

Mr. Halley. You started Annenberg? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How did that happen ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, he was a bartender and I was a newsboy and he 
came out to Inglewoocl and I broke him in. 

Mr. Halley. Then you are the granddaddy of them all? 

Mr. McBride. No, I am not the granddaddy of nobody but when 
you mention granddaddy 

Mr. Halley. It is all one closely knit group ? 

Mr. McBride. I am the granddaddy of Eddie's kids and that's the 
only kids I got. 

Mr. Halley. Eddie? 

Mr. McBride. He has got two. 

Mr. Halley. You are the uncle of Tom's kids ? Aren't you ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, and the granddaddy of Eddie's kids. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 7 



92 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You are the man then to whom all these people in the 
distribution looked up to; is that right? Let's put it that way. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. When I had the business, they looked 
up to me but since then 

Mr. Halley. There was Ragen and you say Annenberg, 

Mr. McBkide. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. They were the people also in the wire service business, 
is that right? 

Mr. McBkide. What year are you talking about, Mr. Halley % 

Mr. Halley. That was prior to 1939. 

Mr. McBkide. There was Ragen, yes, and Annenberg had the 
business, Annenberg had it and Ragen worked for him. 

Mr. Halley. You were a small, closely knit, friendly group? 

Mr. McBkide. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. You had the ability to defend yourselves ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know that. 

Mr. Halley. You so testified that you had to have it in the news 
distribution. 

Mr. McBride. Well, I don't know. You are trying to build me up 
or build up everybody in the circulation business, they got to be tough. 

Mr. Halley. I am just trying to build up the tough ones, frankly. 

Mr. McBride. Who is the tough one? 

Mr. Halley. Well, the ones who could defend themselves. 

Mr. Gallagher. Name names. 

Mr. Halley. Now, please, Mr. Gallagher, he testified 

Mr. Dempsey. Don't you think, Senator, this is nonsense, really? 
I would like to make an objection. 

The Chairman. Mr. Dempsey, you might think so. Let's just wait 
a while. 

Mr. Gallagher. May I just make one remark to you as chairman? 
You were quoted in the Chicago newspaper, I believe, the Daily News, 
as stating that prior to Mr. Ragen's death Continental Press was not 
only legitimate, which it is today, but also reputable, and that the 
purpose- 



I he Chairman. Mr. Gallagher 

Mr. Gallagher. I have got the newspaper in Washington. 

The Chairman. I wish you would get it because I have never said 
that. 

Mr. Gallagher. The quote went on further to state that 

The Chairman. Well 

Mr. Gallagher. What your committee is looking into is the en- 
deavor of the Capone mob to infiltrate into the business. 

The Chairman. Anyway, it is a very interesting story about how 
these gentlemen got the Continental Press started and I should think 
you would want Mr. McBride to tell about it. 

Mr. Gallagher. We don't mind a bit. 

Mr. McBride. Mr. Senator, may I 

The Chairman. Anyway, go ahead with your questions. 

Mr. McBride. May I say a word ? 

Mr. Halley. Surely. 

Mr. McBride. Did you ever go to the hospital? They start check- 
ing you and find out what is wrong with you. 

Mr. Halley. Yes, go ahead. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 93 

Mr. McBride. They start at what they find wrong to cure first, 
don't they \ 

Mr. Halley. We]], go ahead. Make the point you are trying to 

make. 

Mr. McBride. Well, you gentlemen can stop this business over- 
night if you want to. 

Mr. H alley. Well, look 

Mr. McBride. Your trouble 

Mr. Hallet. Let's not get into philosophy. 

Mr. McBride. Your trouble is at your race tracks. Let's start at 
the trouble. 

Mr. Halley. You will get a chance to talk about the philosophy. 
Let's talk about Continental Press. 

Mr. McBride. Why don't we talk about the race tracks? 

Mr. Halley. Because we do one thing at a time. We don't want 
to get off the subject. 

Mr. McBride. All right. 

Mr. Halley. When the subject doesn't please you. 

The Chairman. I will make a note here to ask you your opinion 
about the race tracks in just a few minutes. 

Mr. McBride. O.K. 

Mr. Halley. I have complimented your counsel before. They are 
two very clever men and every time we get into something embarras- 
sing, we get off onto another subject, but it is not going to happen 
now. 

Mr. Dempsey. It is only embarrassing as a fellow lawyer to hear 
you go on that way, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. McBride. You are a great lawyer 

The Chairman. Proceed with the questions. 

Mr. Halley. If we haven't all forgotten where we were when we 
went off on this song and dance, we were at the fact that the wire 
service — — 

Mr. McBride. There ain't no wire service. That is Continental 
Press. The newspapers named it the Avire service to dirty it up because 
they wanted the business, they would sell more newspapers. 

Mr. Halley. What is wrong with the term "wire service"? 

Mr. McBride. It is Continental Press, it is not wire service. 

Mr. Halley. Well, I will call it wire service. 

Mr. McBride. Call it Continental Press. We will correct ourselves. 

Mr. Halley. The wire service appears to have stayed in the hands 
of a small group of people who were in the news distribution busi- 
ness and were successful in the news distribution business. 

Mr. McBride. That's right. On the other hand, would a man 
go into another business that he didn't know anything about? 

Mr. Halley. What did you know 

Mr. McBride. You are the lawyer. You started in as a lawyer 
and now you are practicing law, are you not? You ain't in the 
saloon business or the restaurant business. 

Mr. Halley. Wait a minute, whoa, slow. What did you know 
about the wire business when you went into it in 1940? I think you 
testified, and I took the trouble to write it down when you testified 
before, that you said "I have other things to do. Will you run it 
if I go into it ?" 

Mr. McBride. That's right, I still say that. 



94 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. What did you know about the wire business in 1940 ? 

Mr. McBride. I knew that you had to get news and I knew how 
to sell it to scratch-sheet operators. 

Mr. Halley. When had you gathered news before ? 

Mr. McBride. I never gathered it but I know the foundation of 
the business. 

Mr. Halley. What did you know about the foundation? 

Mr. McBride. I knew you had to gather news and I knew you had 
to sell the scratch-sheet operators. 

Mr. Halley. Everybody in this courtroom knows that. Well, 
now, what did you know about running a racing-wire business? Had 
you ever done it before ? 

Mr. McBride. No, I never done it before. 

Mr. Halley. Had you had any connection with it before? 

Mr. McBride. No, I haven't, 

Mr. Halley. Why do you bring up this point that people go into 
it who know the business? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I had a fair idea of it. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't it a fact that Ragen really was supposed to 
take over the business but he couldn't because he also was in trouble 
with the law when Annenberg went out ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, we never discussed that, Mr. Halley. I don't 
know what was going through his mind but we never discussed it. 

Mr. Halley. I think you said when you testified a little while ago 
that Ragen said, "I am in trouble so I can't do it" ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. You discussed it at least to that extent ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. You certainly knew what trouble he was in? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. He was on parole with an income-tax conviction 
behind him ? 

Mr. McBride. That's right. 

Mr. Gallagher. Probation. 

Mr. McBride. He never got indicted. 

Mr. Halley. That is very much to his credit. 

Mr. Gallagher. The judge must have thought so. 

Mr. Halley. Now, he couldn't do it, so he asked his good friend, 
whom he could trust, Arthur McBride, to come in there and take over 
the business ; is that right ? 

Mr. McBride. Could be. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't want to run it ; you told him you didn't 
want to run it. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Gallagher. What are you talking about? 1930, or 1943, or 
what? 

Mr. Halley. He knows what I am talking about. Let him answer. 

Mr. McBride. He is going back to the time it started. Is that right, 
Mr. Halley? 

Mr. Halley. That is right. 

Mr. Gallagher. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Now, let's all go about this dispassionately, in a low 
voice, and we will get some answers. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 95 

Now, you didn't know — or, let's put it this way : You didn't want 
to run the business. In fact, you told young Ragen and Tom Kelly 
they would have to run the business. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. That is a little bit in conflict with Tom Kelly's testi- 
mony, who said he never had anything to do with the over-all manage- 
ment of the wire service until your son bought it. 

Mr. McBride. Well, one worked out of here, Mr. Halley; the other 
worked out of Chicago. 

Mr. Halley. Xo. Tom Kelly testified he had no over-all man- 
agerial duties. 

Mr. McBride. Now. wait just a moment. I am talking about when 
I owned the business. Now you are talking about since Eddie owned 
it ; is that right ? 

Mr. Halley. No, no. Let me tell you what Tom Kelly testified, 
because I want you to have a record of that so that your testimony 
doesn't conflict with his. 

Mr. McBride. Thank you. 

Mr. Halley. Tom Kelly said that up to the time Eddie bought the 
business or possibly a few weeks before that, when Ragen was actually 
on his death bed in the hospital, he had never run Continental Press 
or tried to run it. 

Mr. Gallagher. Now, wait a second, Mr. Halley. He testified 
that Ragen was running it from 1943 on, and he testified that prior 
to that time Junior was running it. 

Now, Mr. McBride has testified to the same thing, that Junior 
was running it. 

Mr. Halley. Now, Mr. McBride testified that Junior Ragen and 
Tom Kelly were to run it. 

Mr. Gallagher. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. But Tom Kelly testified he didn't run it, so it must 
have been Junior Ragen was running it. 

Mr. Gallagher. Tom Kelly testified that Junior was running it; 
Ragen was running it in Chicago. 

Mr. McBride. They both had about the same. Young Ragen 
would naturally have been the boss at that time. 

Mr. Halley. How old was Ragen at that time ? 

Mr. McBride. I would say 37 or 38. 

Mr. Gallagher. No, he must have been a little younger. He must 
have been, in 1940, 1939— about 32 or 33, 1 think. 

Mr. McBride. No, he is older than that. 

The Chairman. It is immaterial. 

Mr. Halley. In any event, young Ragen was going to run the busi- 
ness, isn't that so ? He was the boss ? 

Mr. McBride. He would have naturally been the boss ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you made it perfectly clear that you didn't want 
to be the boss or have anything to do with it? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You also put in only $20,000 ; is that right ? And the 
Ragen family certainly had $20,000, if they wanted to put it in, did 
they not ? 

Mr. McBride. I imagine they could have got it. Whether they had 
it in cash at that time or not, I don't know. 



96 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hallet. And the fact is that you got your $20,000 back right 
fast. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Now, why did they want you in back in 1940 ? 

Mr. Gallagher. When? Now, wait. 

Mr. McBride. 1939. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Gallagher, let him ask the question. 

Mr. Gallagher. I am trying to keep the record straight. He is in 
and he is out. Now he is asking about 1940. He has the date all 
confused. 

Mr. Hallet. It is not all confused. 

Mr. Gallagher. Why do you want it back in 1940 ? You know that 
isn't what you mean, is it, Rudy ? 

Mr. Halley. Do you really want to make a speech I You were very 
helpful for a moment. Try to stay helpful. 

The year is 1939 now. 

Why did they want you in in 1939? You contributed neither 
managerial talent nor money to the extent that money was needed. 

What were you supposed to be doing in Continental Press ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I put up the money. I don't know whether 
they had the money and I don't know what was going through their 
minds, and, therefore, I can't answer that question. You will have 
to find that out from young Ragen. 

Mr. Halley. I would like to find out what was going through your 
mind. Why did you figure you were in ? 

Mr. McBride. In my mind was this : I figured I was going to take 
care of Tom Kelly because he had to take care of two kids and I 
figured the rest of the people and I thought it was a good gamble. 

Mr. Halley. Was it your name and your prestige they needed to 
hold that thing together ? 

Mr. McBride. No. My name and prestige 

Mr. Halley. That they could go out to the newsboys and out to 
the distributors and say, "Now, Mickey McBride is running this 
thing ; you play along with us and everything will be all right." 

Mr. McBride. That would not have made no difference. 

Mr. Halley. It wasn't your prestige? 

Mr. McBride. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You do have prestige is the news distribution business ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I don't know that. 

Mr. Halley. Well, they know you can take care of yourself and the 
people who are with you, don't they ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know whether they do or not. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you always have taken care of yourself and the 
people with you, have you not? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Nobody has ever pushed you out of business. 

Mr. McBride. I get by. No, they haven't. 

Mr. Halley. And you say you get by. 

Mr. McBride. I get by all right. I have no complaints to make at 
all. 

Mr. Halley. Now, can you give one decent reason why you were 
needed 

Mr. Dempsey. Now, Mr. Halley, Senator, I would like to object. 

Mr. McBride. Listen, did you ever do any 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 97 

Mr. Dempsey. Quiet. You say "decent," Just what is Mr. Halley 
talking about? . . ■ 

]\lr Halley. Well, would you give me the courtesy of objecting to 
a question after it has been asked? I would like to know one decent 
reason why you went into Continental Press in 1939. 

Mr Dempsey. Mr. Senator, if I may I would like to take exception. 

The Chairman. Well, he means by "decent" one "good" reason. 

Mr. McBride. All right. The best reason I can give is my brother- 
in-law, who I knew could run the business and had two kids, whom 
my mother was raising, and at that time he was a single man ; he 
hadn't married the second time. 

Then along with it, there was some other fellow that I was raised 
with, sold papers with, such as John Gorkin and Abe Jaffe, and I 
knew them pretty well. Now, is that 

Mr. Halley. No, that is not, and I will tell you why. 

Mr. McBride. Well, then, you tell me the reason, Mr. Halley. If 
I can't tell you the reason, you tell it to me then. 

Mr. Halley. I am going to try to help you. 

Mr. McBride. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Will you first explain how your being in it made it 
more possible for the business to continue ? 

Mr. McBride. How me being in it made it more possible? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. Jeeze, I can't explain that. 

Mr. Halley. You said that 

Mr. McBride. I put up $20,000, and . 

Mr. Halley. Now, wait a minute. Mr. Gallagher suggested that. 

Mr. Gallagher. That is right. 

Mr. McBride. I did. 

Mr. Gallagher. Well, ask him. Did Kelly have the $20,000? 

Mr. Halley. Did Kelly have the $20,000 ? 

If your brother-in-law Kelly came to you and said, "Will you lend 
me $20,000?" would you have lent it to him? 

Mr. McBride. At that time I don't know. He wasn't established. 

Mr. Halley. But you were willing to go into a huge business just 
to see that he kept his job, and put your credit behind it ? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Dempsey. May I suggest that the answers to all the questions 
have been given over and over again. If Mr. Halley doesn't think 
the reasons are sound, that is an opinion which he is entitled to express, 
but I don't think he ought to continue to argue with the witness, who 
has given every reason he knows. 

The Chairman. I think they are getting along all right. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully will attempt not to 
argue with the witness; I am simply trying to help him to give one 
good reason. 

Mr. D t .mpsfy. Mr. Halley, I think he has given a dozen good rea- 
sons, and I think you know it. 

The Chairman. The record will show whether he has or not, Mr. 
Dempsey. Let's go ahead. 

Mr. Halley. Now, you testified also that you thought Tom Kelly 
could run it, but I think you should know that Tom Kelly has testified 
he didn't run it, so it must have been Ragen, junior, who ran it. 



98 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. Well, that could be possible. Ragen, junior, was 
naturally the top man at that time on account of the senior living. 

Mr. H alley. And why would Ragen, junior, need you, when you 
said you weren't going to spend any time in the business ? 

Mr. McBride. Maybe they needed my $20,000 and maybe they 
needed more to carry on if it wasn't successful. 

Mr. Halley. You know very well they didn't need your $20,000. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. They were pretty well pushed at that 
time for money. They were in trouble and were pretty well down. 

Mr. Halley. The Ragen family had money? Do you know that? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know that. 

Mr. Halley. You don't doubt it one bit. 

Mr. McBride. I do doubt it, because I can prove to you where they 
borrowed money on their insurance policy. He borrowed $50,000 
on his insurance policy. 

Mr. Gallagher. I would like to ask a question. I would like to ask 
if this continuity — — ■ 

The Chairman. What is your question ? 

Mr. Gallagher. I would like to ask Mr. McBride if at the time 
that he put $20,000 in, which Kelly stated would probably be needed, 
if you felt that it probably would be necessary for you to put up an 
additional sum of money ? 

Mr. McBride. Certainly I did. 

The Chairman. Well, you got your $20,000 back in a month. 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; but I didn't know it, Senator, at that time. 

The Chairman. That is what the record shows, about 1 month. 

Mr. Halley. Now, it is a swell thing to have brilliant counsel sit 
here and think of reasons why you did something 10 years ago. 

Mr. Dempsey. It is not a nice thing. Senator, to have a lot of peda- 
gogical questions thrown at you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Dempsey, I will have to ask you and Mr. Gal- 
lagher to stop interrupting. This is pertinent testimony and I think 
we are getting at matters we have been interested in a long time. 

Mr. McBride is a very intelligent man and amply able to take care 
of himself. 

Mr. McBride. Thank you, Senator; that is a very high chance with 
them. 

We get certain boys that you start off with, and you figure, "Well, 
he is not going to be any good," but someplace along the line he de- 
velops. Now, Kelly has developed since that time. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you know, I get the feeling that these answers 
are made up to suit the immediate question, because a little while ago 
you said you had confidence that Tom Kelly could run Continental. 

Mr. McBride. I still have confidence. 

Mr. Halley. And if you had confidence that Toin Kelly could run 
Continental, wasn't he developed enough to lend him $20,000? 

Mr. Dempsey. He also testified that they might need a lot more 
than $20,000. 

Mr. Halley. Let's get the witness' answer. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. I didn't know when I went into that; 
that might have cost $100,000. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you are a pretty smart man, and any business 
that paid you back $20,000 in a month, you must have had a good 
idea it would pay you back in a month. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 99 

Mr. Dempsey. May I suggest there is nothing in the record that it 
was paid back in a month? 

Mr. Halley. Now, before we finish with this reason why you 
wouldn't lend Tom Kelly $20,000, I just was wondering whether you 
held him in less esteem than some racket characters that have been 
referred to. 

Mr. McBride. I held him in esteem, but I didn't know at that time 
whether the man had developed to an estate where he could take care 
of it like the Ragens. 

Mr. Gallagher. What salary did he get? 

Mr. McBride. Listen. Kelly was getting $100 a week. 

Mr. Halley. We can't all talk at once every time the question gets a 
little embarrassing. 

Now, I am trying to find out why you lent money to racket charac- 
ters and you didn't lend it to Tom Kelly. 

Mr. Dempsey. Senator, I would suggest that that is a deliberately 
insulting question, simply an attempt to harrass and smear the wit- 
ness. It wouldn't be permitted in a legitimate police court. 

The Chairman. The testimony is that he loaned this fellow Wexler 
$10,000. 

Mr. Dempsey. And it was repaid. 

The Chairman. And endorsed his note for $10,000. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Gallagher. Well, has there been any testimony he was a rack- 
eteer ? 

The Chairman. I don't know. I think so. I think Mr. McBride 
said 

Mr. McBride. I have not. I don't know of any trouble, Senator, 
that he ever had. 

Mr. Gallagher. I didn't notice Mr. Nellis coming in with any 
criminal record on Mr. Wexler. 

The Chairman. Well, anyway, we have him subpenaed and can't 
get him here. 

Mr. Halley. We will develop Mr. Wexler in time. 

Did you feel that Mr. Wexler had developed enough to loan him 
$10,000? 

Mr. McBride. I sure did. 

Mr. Halley. Along what lines had he developed ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, he had got one of the finest restaurants in this 
town. 

Mr. Halley. Did he have it then? 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; he had it at that time — and if not in the United 
States. 

Mr. Halley. And he was in such good shape he had to come and 
borrow $10,000 from you? 

Mr. Dempsey. Senator, every businessman has to borrow money. 
That is a ridiculous question. 

Mr. Halley. If he had that kind of good business, why couldn't he 
get it at the bank ? 

Mr. McBride. He did. 

Mr. Halley. Are you a bank? 

Mr. Gallagher. He only endorsed the loan. 

Mr. Halley. Who all is testifying? I ask one question and I get 
an answer from you, one from Dempsey, and another from Gallagher. 



100 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Dempsey. You asked us to be helpful, Mr. Halley. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Dempsey and Mr. Gallagher, unless 
we can do better here we are not going to get through and I will have 
to ask you to wait until the question is asked, and if you are going to 
insist on interrupting I will have to deny the right to make objections. 
So let's try to get along. 

Mr. Halley. At any event, you felt that Mushy had developed 
enough to be worth lending $10,000 to him? 

Mr. McBride. I sure did. Or I wouldn't have loaned it. 

Mr. Halley. But you didn't think you would loan $20,000 to your 
own brother-in-law ( 

Mr. McBride. Well, I didn't know. That was a debatable ques- 
tion at that time, and the $20,000 wouldn't have stopped. We were 
lending Kelly at that time, but I didn't know how far I had to go. 

Mr. Halley. Did Kelly come and ask you for $20,000. 

Mr. McBride. No, he never did. 

Mr. Halley. It was never even discussed ? 

Mr. McBride. Never even discussed. 

Mr. Halley. Nobody ever thought of Kelly taking over the 
business ? 

Mr. McBride. You see, Mr. Halley, when I put up that money I 
didn't know whether I would have to put up $100,000 or not, 

Mr. Halley. Well, look ; you are a very successful businessman. 

Mr. McBride. Thank you for the compliment. 

Mr. Halley. You went into a business that was a going business. 

Mr. McBride. It wasn't at that time ; it was out of business. 

Mr. Halley. Oh, a business that was able to pay you back $20,000 
in a month was a going business. 

Mr. Dempsey. There is no such record. 

Mr. McBride. There is no nothing. They had to do their business, 
getting the stuff out at the race track and calling on long-distance 
phones and holding them open. 

Mr. Halley. And they had been doing it 

Mr. McBride. They had done it; yes, to hold it together. 

Mr. Halley. Despite the Annenberg indictment? 

Mr. McBride. That is right, 

Mr. Halley. All right. Now, let's get on to your purchase of the 
one-third interest for your son. 

Mr. McBride. O. K. 

Mr. Halley. Again, the magic name of McBride is needed in the 
wire service. Why ? 

Mr. McBride. I can't take that name over to the bank and get any 
money on it, so it can't be very magic. 

Mr. Halley. Well, maybe it is magic in different circles. 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You have no explanation ? 

Mr. McBride. For what, Mr. Halley? Yes; I want to be helpful. 

Mr. Halley. Why the magic name of McBride was needed in the 
wire service when you bought a one-third interest for your son. 

And finally, the testimony, you must know it is, that after the shoot- 
ing of Ragen, Sr., the Ragen family wanted no more of the wire serv- 
ice. They were through. 

Mr. Gallagher. Not for almost a year. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 101 

Mr. Halley. They wanted to get out. That is the testimony; they 
were scared and they wanted to get out because they were properly 
scared, as you know. 

Mr. Gallagher. Now, who is testifying to that? 

Mr. Halley. Tom Kelly. 

Mr. Gallagher. I would like to see it in that record. 

Mr. Halley. You shall read it. 

The Chairman. Well, anyway, ask Mr. McBride whether that is 
true. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't the Ragen family want to get out of the wire 
service ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. According — the only one I talked to, Mr. 
Halley, was young Jim. 

Mr. Halley. And you were willing to buy it for your son, the whole 
thing ? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Today your son owns it completely. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. So I believe the testimony is that he has nothing to 
do with it whatsoever ; Tom Kelly runs it. 

Mr. McBride. Tom Kelly runs it. 

Mr. Halley. And your son had nothing to do with the negotiations 
for purchase ; I think you and Tom Kelly handled that. 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Now, why were you willing to put your son into a 
business which was in such friction with unidentifiable characters that 
the head of it had just been assassinated? Why were you willing to 
risk your son's life in that business? 

Mr. McBride. Well, Mr. Halley, that business has been in existence 
for over 60 years and one man got killed, you say, in it. 

I know a hundred lawyers that got killed in the last 40 years. 

Mr. Halley. Now, you said it was a brand new business. You 
started it in 1939. 

Mr. McBride. It is a brand new business. 

Mr. Gallagher. He is talking about the news service, Rudy. Why 
quibble about something like that ? 

Mr. Halley. May we now call it the news service '( 

Mr. Gallagher. The news services started in 1890 ; that is what he 
means. 

Mr. Halley. You were objecting to "wire service" but you don't 
object to "news service" is that it ? 

Mr. Gallagher. No ; that is all right. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gallagher, let's get on with the questioning. 

Mr. Halley. Well. I am a little surprised by Mr. Gallagher, who 
so strenuously objected to my calling it a wire service. 

Mr. McBride. It is not a wire service, it is the Continental Press. 
It is a news service. 

Mr. Halley. Now, just a moment. This is a three-horse parley, 
and I don't want to play a three-horse parley with you fellows. I 
will take one at a time. 

Mr. Gallagher. All right; go ahead now. What is the question? 

Mr. Halley. "News service" is O. K., while "wire service" is 
insulting? 



102 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. Why, certainly, it is insulting, because "wire service" 
would connect with a pipeline, something about past-posting and 
phony touting. That is the connotation given in the newspapers for 
the last 3 years, many of them. The "wire service" it is like doping 
wires, it is giving hot news on horses, and that kind of stuff. 

It isn't; it is a straight news-reporting service. This very same 
service is the very same news that comes over the AP and the UP 
sport ticker after they get it from us. 

The Chairman. I don't see where what you call it makes much dif- 
ference, whether you call it a news service or a wire service. 

Mr. McBride. You don't like having a news service kicked around 
in the dirt. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't 3^011 have any fear that your son would run 
into the same problem that Ragen, Sr., ran into and resulted in 
Ragen, Sr.'s being assassinated? 

Mr. Gallagher. Mr. Chairman, isn't Mr. Halley again making an 
assumption that Ragen was assassinated because of this ? 

Mr. McBride. I didn't know that Ragen was assassinated. I 
couldn't prove that he was assassinated over Continental Press or any- 
thing else. That hasn't been proven, so therefore I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Well, let's not be choosey about it. 

Mr. McBride. I know in the last 40 or 50 years that this business 
has been in existence, nobody got killed. 

Mr. Halley. Wait. You said it was a brand new business you 
started in 1939? 

Mr. McBride. Well, you say, then, going back to bookies, yes, it 
is a brand new business; It is the Continental Press. 

Mr. Halley. Well, take it one way or the other way. Which way 
do you want it? Brand new business, or one that goes back 50 years? 

Mr. Dempsey. Senator, may I suggest that Mr. Halley try not to 
confuse this? The newspaper business is a news business. 

The Chairman. I will have to rule that only one of you can make 
objections. I think that I will rule that only Mr. Gallagher can 
make objections. 

Now, go ahead with your questions. 

Mr. Hallet. Well, which is it, now? Brand new business or a 
60-year-old one? 

Mr. McBride. It is a brand new business. 

Mr. Halley. O. K. ; we will leave it that way. 

Mr. Gallagher. Now, may I interrupt, Mr. Halley? You know 
what he meant when he said that this business, dissemination of sport- 
ing information, has been done by several different wire services since 
the 1890's, but there is a new dissemination. 

Mr. Halley. Are you asking me what I think? 

Mr. Gallagher. I am telling you. 

Mr. Halley. Are you asking me what I think or telling me what 
I think? 

Mr. Gallagher. Well, I am telling you as you are telling Mr. Mc- 
Bride what he thinks. 

Mr. Halley. Well, I know what T am thinking, so don't ask me. 
If you ask me, I will tell you what I think. 

Mr. Gallagher. O. K. 

Mr. Halley. Now, here : Weren't you afraid that your boy would 
be bumped off ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 103 

Mr. McBride. My boy might get hit by a brick from this building 
and bumped off. Life is a game of chance. 

Now, how could I — he might get hit by an automobile. 

Mr. Halley. I will let the record stay with that answer. 

Mr. Gallagher. Let me ask this question. 

Mr. McBride. What is my boy going to do that is going to get him 
knocked off ? Let me ask that question ? 

Mr. Halley. I am going to insist on my right as counsel for this 
committee to ask at least two questions in a row without questions 
coming back at me from the other side of the table. 

Now, let's have a little decorum here. We have played along with 
you far enough. 

Mr. McBride. O. K. 

Mr. Halley. Now, you have given an answer, and it will just stand 
on the record. 

The next question is how was there any reason why you were able to 
continue the business of Continental Press without further problems 
with Trans-American Press, when Eagen, Sr., was not able to do it? 

Mr. McBride. Repeat that question again. I don't follow you. 

Mr. Halley. Ts there any reason why you were able to continue the 
business of Continental Press without interference from Trans-Ameri- 
can Press, whereas Ragen, Sr., was unable to do it? 

Mr. Gallagher. Mr. Chairman, I object to that question, because 
the record reflects that the business — if he wants to put the question 
how Edward was able to continue it under Kelly's management, we 
have no objection to the question, but we object. 

Mr. Halley. May I argue that ? Right now is the time. 

Right now I am taking the position which I am going to ask the com- 
mittee to take in the report, that all of this business with Ragen, Jr., 
and McBride, Jr., and all these corporations are a lot of phonies, and 
that Continental News is and was Arthur McBride. 

Mr. Gallagher. Wait a second, Mr. Chairman. May I respond to 
that? 

Will you make that statement under oath in the Treasury Depart- 
ment, so we can recover some $700,000 in additional excess tax, that 
have been paid since 1947, because those are legitimate distributors ? 

Mr. Halley. That is my official position. 

Mr. Gallagher. Will you make that statement before the Treasury 
Department on behalf of us in a refund case? 

The Chairman. Mr. Gallagher, you have heard a statement here, 
so let's go on. 

Mr. Halley. Now, will you read the question ? 

(The reporter read the question.) 

The Chairman. In other words, they went out of business shortly 
after — Trans- American went out of business, I believe, in 1917. 

Mr. Gallagher. June. 

The Chairman. June 1947. 

Mr. Gallagher. The purchase was made on April 1. 

The Chairman. At that time you had a third interest. 

Mr. McBride. I didn't have no third interest. My boy 

The Chairman. I mean, your son had a third interest. E. J. Mc- 
Bride had a third interest, and then very shortly after that, you and 
he, or he, purchased the entire interest, and how did Mr. Ragen' Sr.'s 



104 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

difficulty with Trans-American, which allegedly had some interests in 
it that weren't quite savory 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you. 

The Chairman. And why didn't you have difficulty? 

Mr. McBride. I couldn't tell you that. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. McBride. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever met him ? 

Mr. McBride. No, sir ; I haven't. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know William "Bugsy'' O'Brien? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. McBride. 15 years. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Ralph O'Hara? 

Mr. McBride. No, I don't. 

Mr. Halley. He was the head of Transamerica Press. 

Mr. McBride. I believe he was; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You never met him ? 

Mr. McBride. Never met him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Jake Guzik? 

Mr. McBride. Never met him. 

Mr. Halley. Murray Humphrey ? 

Mr. McBride. Never met him. 

Mr. Halley. Any of the Fischetti's ? 

Mr. McBride. Never met them. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever discuss Tony Accardo, or any of the 
Fischetti brothers, with either of the Angersolas, or with x\l Polizzi ? 

Mr. McBride. Never, never. Definitely no. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever speak to Al Polizzi, or any of the 
Angersola brothers about whether or not you would be able to operate 
Continental Press if you or your son took it over from Regan ? 

Mr. McBride. Definitely not ; no. The answer its "definitely not." 

Mr. Halley. Is not your ability to make peace and continue with- 
out further harassment 

Mr. McBride. Pardon me; I will answer that question 

Mr. Halley. I will withdraw that and put it this way: Was not 
your ability to continue the operation of Continental Press without 
further harassment from Trans- American due to your friendship 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Halley. With Al Polizzi and the King boys, the Angersolas? 

Mr. McBride. No ; definitely not. 

Mr. Halley. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. Mr. McBride, you said in the beginning that 
Continental wasn't a very good investment when you got into it. 
Mr. McBride. Do you think it was ? 

The Chairman. Well, I was looking at what I think is already in 
the record. You got your $20,000 back pretty quick. 
Mr. McBride. That is right. 

The Chairman. And that the first year there, from 1939, I think, 
and Mr. Gallagher, you can check your figures there, that this is what 
you have given us. 

Mr. Gallagher. I will be glad to give you the figures accurately 
if vou want them. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105 

The Chairman. I have them here from November 1939, to December 

1939. You withdrew $16,000. 

Mr. Gallagher. That was the net for the year. 

The Chairman. Was that? 

And then it has a distribution, and also for that period you got 
$21,200 as part of the partners' income from Continental, making a 
total of about $36,000 that you got back from November 1939 to 
December 31, 1939. 

Mr. Gallaher. In a year's operation ; that is correct. 

The Chairman. And then from January 1, 1940, to December 31, 

1940, you drew out $43,024.82 as a distribution, and also you got some 
other dividend of $30,361.04. Is that correct? 

Mr. Gallagher. That may be correct. I would have to check those 
figures. 

The Chairman. And that from January 1, 1941, until December 
31, 1941, that your distribution was $71,413.71, and that in addition 
to that you received $43,405.30. That was from January 1, 1941, to 
December 31, 1941, $71,000 plus $43,000. 

Mr. McBride. For a year ? 

The Chairman. Apparently that is correct. 

Mr. McBride. I didn't think that was that good. 1 will have to 
take that back. 

The Chairman. Then I have a further one here, until after you 
sold out to young Ragen, that from January 1, 1942, until August 22, 
1942, you got a distribution of $39,014, and that also you drew during 
that period $55,900. These are from your own records, I believe. 

Mr. McBride. Well, I will have to take that back, then, Senator. 
Maybe it is correct. 

The Chairman. So that, looking at it roundly here, in a period of 
about 2V2 years it must have been about $275,000 that Mr. McBride 
got out of the business. 

Mr. McBride. Well, then, it can't be a bad business, and I will have 
to take it back and correct the record and say it is a good business. 

The Chairman. Well, whatever they add up to. 

Mr. McBride. I just went over it roughly with him. I said, "What 
did the business make?" 

The Chairman. Now, the business was making big money during 
Mr. Annenberg's time, wasn't it? 

Mr. McBride. Yes; they went right direct to the bookmakers and 
had their offices and every place. The business made over $2,000,000. 

The Chairman. Before you made an investment, you inquired about 
it. At least, it was making big money. 

Mr. McBride. Yes; in the newspapers they carried what it made, 
in the investigation before the judge. 

The Chairman. So you didn't have any fear of that $20,000? 

Mr. McBride. Well, it was a gamble, and it was a lot of fear when 
you ain't got no wires, Senator. 

The Chairman. Now, did I understand you have told about your 
business transactions with Al Polizzi ? What was the other brother's 
name ? 

Mr. McBride. Chuck. That ain't a brother. I don't know; it is 
Chuck Polizzi. He is not a brother; I don't know what the relation. 

The Chairman. That is right. He is not a brother. He has some 
other name. 



106 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McBride. I don't know that. 

The Chairman. Did you say you had business relations with him, 
too? 

Mr. McBride. I don't recall any. I might have had. I know the 
man from 20 years, but I don't recall any at the present time. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. McBride, in fairness, I said I was going 
to ask you about the race track. 

What was it you wanted to say about the race track ? 

Mr. McBride. I will withdraw that question. 

The Chairman. You mean your offer to testify. All right. 

Mr. McBride. Well, listen just a minute — well, I will drop it. 

The Chairman. Did you make Eddie a gift of his first one-third 
interest ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I collected 

The Chairman. Or did he pay for that ? 

Mr. McBride. He paid for that, and I collected interest. I think I 
charged him either 4% or 5 percent interest. 

The Chairman. You loaned him the money and he paid you back? 

Mr. McBride. I loaned him the money. 

The Chairman. Now, what is that radio station you own down in 
Miami? 

Mr. McBride. It is a radio station. 

The Chairman. What is the name ? 

Mr. McBride. WMIE. 

The Chairman. I want to ask you about this, Mr. McBride. 

We had testimony, in the recall petition of Melvin Hart, which was 
undoubtedly sponsored by certain people that were interested in book- 
making and gambling operations in Miami Beach, and also generally 
in connection with the work of the Miami Crime Commission, that 
your station down there, through some man— — 

Mr. McBride. Bob Venn ? 

The Chairman. Mr. Barry Gray, has been very violent in support 
of the recall petition and also in opposition to the crime commission, 
and backing up generally the gamblers and the bookmakers on Miami 
Beach. 

Is that the policy laid down by you ? 

Mr. McBride. Definitely not, and they haven't backed up no policy 
of any gamblers on Miami Beach. That is definitely not so. 

The Chairman. Well, it was generally known that the 

Mr. McBride. Barry Gray is a commentator. 

The Chairman. It is generally known that the S. & G. Syndicate 
and certain other people, bookmakers, were substantially interested 
in this recall petition. 

I have seen some of the comments that he would make, and they 
would seem to indicate that the policy of the station was to back up the 
position of the gamblers along Miami Beach, or at least he was very 
vitriolic" against Melvin Hart. 

Mr. McBride. I imagine he was. I have heard that before. But 
we doii'l — we take no sides, and anybody can get on that mike and 
talk, both sides. 

The Chairman. I know, but I am talking about your radio com- 
mentator. 

Mr. McBrtde. Well, I had no control over him at all. 

The Chairman. He only took one side 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 107 

Mr. McBride. Oh. he took both sides. I differ with you. 

Mr. Gallagher. Did you have any control over what he said? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

The Chairman. Melvin Kichards, instead of Melvin Hart, is the 
councilman. 

Mr. McBride. Yes ; he is the councilman. May I get you straight 
on this, Senator? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. I think that the only thing that Barry Gray — he 
had a contract with us, and he is off the station, been off about a year, 
but he was a commentator, and when we drew the contract with him 
he had the authority to say what he wanted to say. 

I never gave him no order, or I never gave Mr. Venn, the man that 
runs the radio station, any order, any more than the man in Fort 
Pierce. 

Mr. Halley. He was connected with the Miami Morning Mail, 
wasn't he ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes; he wrote a column for them. And I asked 
him not to do that, and he wrote the column, and that is one of the 
reasons he isn't there today. 

Mr. Halley. His views and the views of the Mail were very well 
known to you, were they not, when you hired him ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; they were not. 

Mr. Dempsey. Excuse me. I don't know if I am still off bounds 

The Chairman. Yes; you are off bounds, Mr. Dempsey. 

Mr. Dempsey. Well, I would like to discuss that, Mr. Halley. 

You are familiar with WGAR's policy on commentators. 

Mr. Halley. Well, weren't you familiar with his policies when you 
hired him ? 

Mr. McBride. Who? 

Mr. Halley. Barry Gray. 

Mr. McBride. At this time everybody could come in and talk, and 
there wasn't nothing wrong with him. Him and Richards got into a 
fight, I guess. I don't know. 

But I had no control over Barry Gray, or the station management 
had no control over Barry Gray. 

Mr. Halley. Assuming that, when he came in there, didn't you 
know that he was progambling? 

Mr. McBride. No ; he was not, and he is still at Chandler's in New 
York. He wasn't progambling. He thought they ought to legalize 
gambling, and that was one thing he did think, and he didn't get it 
from me. That is his own habit of thought, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. And those were his views when you originally signed 
him on. 

Mr. McBride. But I didn't know that when I signed him on. 

He has an awful lot of listeners; he had a couple hundred thousand 
listeners every night. He is the most popular man down there in 
radio, and I think some of the writers here will tell you that if they 
want to be honest about it. 

Mr. Halley. At any event he got on your air, and he certainly was 
progambling. 

Mr. McBride. He had a year's contract. I don't know about that; 
he was for legalizing gambling ; but it wasn't my wishes. That is not 

68958— 51— pt. 6 8 



108 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

the bookmakers — legalized gambling, the bookmakers don't want 
that. 

Mr. Hallet. One other thing. Do you know Austin O'Malley ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes. 

Mr. Hallet. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I knew Austin when he used to work on news- 
papers, when he was Knox's right-hand man. 

Mr. Hallet. He is a press agent ? 

Mr. McBride. That is right. 

Mr. Hallet. Who hired him for Continental ? 

Mr. McBride. James Ragen, Sr. 

Mr. Hallet. Did you recommend him? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Hallet. You had known him, though, at the time? 

Mr. McBride. Not very well. I met him through Mr. Knox at one 
time. 

Mr. Hallet. How did Ragen meet him ? Through you ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, he was around Chicago. He was around there, 
Mr. Halley. He worked on the same sheet one time that Ragen was 
working on, the Examiner, then went over as Knox's confidential man. 

Mr. Hallet. Did O'Malley ever go down to Florida to your knowl- 
edge and state that he was representing you ? 

Mr. McBride. No; not to my knowledge. I never sent him down 
there. 

Mr. Hallet. Did you ever hire him ? 

Mr. McBride. I never hired him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever authorize him to represent you ? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever authorize him to take steps to try to kill 
some neAvspaper stories attacking the Continental Press ? 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Hallet. Did you ever hear that he has said that he represented 
you in his efforts ? 

Mr. McBride. Personally, me? 

Mr. Hallet. Yes. 

Mr. McBride. No. 

Mr. Hallet. You personally ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I never did. 

Mr. Hallet. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Anything else ? 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. McBride, how many radio stations are there in 
Miami, roughly? 

Mr. McBride. About nine. 

Mr. Nellis. How many Continental Press service — broadcast race 
results ? 

Mr. McBride. All of them, if they can get it. 

Mr. Nellis. You are sure all of them do ? 

Mr. McBride. At different times. 

Mr. Nellis. You are sure all of them do ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, I have listened to all of them, and they at 
different times had it. It might have been that in a great big race 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact that WMIE is the only one that carries 
race results ? 

Mr. McBride. I didn't know that. I thought they all carried it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 109 

Mr. Gallagher. Isn't there a time lag on the stations that the FCC 
requests ? 

Mr. McBride. There is a time lag of 15 minutes. 

Mr. Nellis. How many stations in Miami carried the crime-com- 
mission program, that sort of March of Time presentation? 

Mr. McBride. It is no March of Time. It is Sullivan's Crime 
Program. 

Mr. Nellis. "Well, it was a dramatic presentation — wasn't it? — of 
anticrime crusades. 

Mr. McBride. It is an anti-American, you might call it. 

Mr. Nellis. Dramatizing stories of crime; is that right? 

Mr. McBride. I never listended to it, only what my lawyers told 
me. 

Mr. Gallagher. May I make ■ 

Mr. Nellis. Just a moment. I am not finished. 

How many stations of the ones you know in Miami carried those 
programs ? 

Mr. McBride. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, isn't it a fact that the vast majority of them did? 

Mr. McBride. I imagine so. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, did WMIE carry them ? 

Mr. McBride.. I don't think so ; no. 

Mr. Nellis. Why? 

Mr. McBride. That is up to the station manager to carry them, 
whether he wants to carry them or not, and his lawyer advised him 
not to carry it, and his lawyer— one of his lawyers was going to file 
a suit for a half million dollars against them. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever advise the station manager not to carry 
those programs? 

Mr. McBride. No, sir ; I did not. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever heard any of them ? 

Mr. McBride. No ; I have not. 

Mr. Gallagher. Mr. Chairman, may I just make this statement ? 

Mr. Dan Sullivan was called in by the FCC to testify under oath. 

He had addressed communications to the FCC charging that the 
Continental Press Service was owned by the Capone mob. 

Now, it is very easy, just like Virgil Peterson did the same thing 
in the Press, many a time, in his reports of the Chicago Crime Com- 
mission, that Continental was owned by the mob. 

Dan Sullvian, when he was called in under oath before the FCC, 
said he had no knowledge of it, and his only knowledge was predi- 
cated on a letter sent to him in Miami by the same Virgil Peterson in 
Chicago. 

The Chairman. I have seen his testimony, Mr. Gallagher. 

Mr. Gallagher. Before the FCC ? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gallagher. I can see why that would be a good reason, Sena- 
tor. WMIE wouldn't carry that man's program on its station. 

The Chairman. Of course, he was there with his program a long 
time before he made that statement. 

Mr. Gallagher. Yes. He made that statement a long time ago, 
and then wasn't able to back it up under oath. 

The Chairman. What I mean is, his program has been carried on 
a lone: time. 



HO ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gallagher. Well, I don't know about the time on the program. 

The Chairman. You have the privilege of carrying it or not. We 
are just trying to get your general attitude on that. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Gallagher, if you want to ask Mr. Mc- 
Bricle any questions, you or Mr. Dempsey 

Mr. Gallagher. I would merely like, Mr. Chairman, to ask Mr. 
McBride a question which is the note that he ended on at the noon 
recess. 

Mr. McBride, are you engaged now or have you ever been engaged 
in any illegal business in violation of either State or Federal law? 

Mr. McBride. No, definitely not. 

Mr. Gallagher. That is all. 

The Chairman. All right, If you want to ask him — oh, yes. You 
said you didn't want to talk about the race tracks but you had some 
idea about how to stop gambling and crime. 

Mr. McBride. What do they do 

The Chairman. If you have 

Mr. McBride. I haven't said "crime." I am not a specialty on 
crime, and I can't tell you how to stop crime. I know this : that I 
do try to help individuals if they have been away and come back ; I try 
to help them. There was a Judge Adams here that might have sent 
50 people 

The Chairman. What is that philosophy you wanted to talk about? 
Let's let him testify. 

Mr. McBride. AH right, sure. You didn't understand it. I was 
asking him. 

If you want to stop gambling in this country on the horses, all 
you have to do is stop the race track. That's all you have to do. Why 
should they gamble inside a fence and can't gamble outside of a 
fence ? 

The Chairman. Then they will gamble from Tia Juana; won't 
they ? 

Mr. McBride. Well, you want to stop it in America ; so, that's the 
way to do it. 

Mr. Dempsey. I may say, Senator, the record does show it was very 
unsuccessful when the race tracks were closed down during the war. 
The Cuban and Mexican tracks did not have any very great business. 

The Chairman. Well, you got the news from Tia Juana, from 
Havana ? 

Mr. McBride. Yes, but there was no interest in it. You see, the 
only interest you have in a race track is where they can follow it, 
where they can follow the horses and know the horses. 

The Chairman. Are there any questions you want to ask, Mr. 
Dempsey ? 

Mr. Dempsey. I w T ould just like to say this : That the question 

The Chairman. If we want you any more, we will let you know, so 
you remain under subpena — not under subpena, under our agreement. 

Mr. Gallagher. That is right. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Dempsey. Do you think you might want us sometime; so we 
can make arrangements to go home? 

The Chairman. You can go on home. 

Mr. McBride. Thank you, Mr. Senator. It is nice to know you, 
and I hope to see you. Sorry we didn't have a more pleasant meeting. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 111 

The Chairman. Good-by. 

The committee will come to order. We will call Mr. Polizzi just for 
a limited purpose, and then after that we will adjourn until 9 : 30 in 
the morning. In the morning we will start at 9 : 30. 

If Mr. Polizzi is here, bring him in. 

TESTIMONY OF ALFRED POLIZZI, CORAL GABLES, FLA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY PARKER FULTON, ATTORNEY, CLEVELAND, OHIO 

The Chairman. Mr. Polizzi, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you give to this committee will be the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Polizzi. I do. 

The Chairman. Sit down, Mr. Polizzi. 

Mr. Fulton. For the purpose of the record 

The Chairman. Yes; all right. 

Mr. Fulton. Mr. Polizzi is appearing in response to a telegram 
which supplements the subpena. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir; that's right. 

Mr. Fulton. I appear on his behalf. My name is Parker Fulton. 

The Chairman. Your address in Cleveland, Mr. Fulton? 

Mr. Fulton. 1250 Terminal Tower Building. The telephone num- 
ber is Cherry 1-0140. 

The Chairman. Have a seat, sir. 

Mr. Fulton. As I understand it presently, Mr. Polizzi is being 
called for a limited purpose. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Fulton. We are going to carry on then in the morning? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir; that's right. 

Mr. Fulton. Even though it is only for a limited purpose, I must, 
if permitted, make a very brief, very brief statement. 

The Chairman. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. Fulton. I am accustomed to dealing with specific issues, and 
I want to be sure that I know what I am doing. I understand that this 
is a senatorial investigation of organized crime in interstate com- 
merce ; that that is the question under inquiry, and that the purpose of 
the inquiry is to ascertain the facts upon which may be based legisla- 
tion which may prevent or tend to prevent organized crime or any 
kind of crime, I assume, in interstate commerce. 

The witness is here under subpena. I have seen the telegram. I 
wonder if I might have the subpena. 

Mr. Nfxlts. There is the subpena. 

Mr. Fulton. Well, it is as I understand it to be. 

Now, from what transpired this morning, I assume that, although 
the resolution provides that two members of the committee constitute 
a quorum, appropriate action has been taken whereby one member 
may preside and act. If that is so, then I will not interpose any 
objection on that ground. 

I want to make this point, having seen that subpena: that I cannot 
tell from reading it whether it is a subpena directed to Polizzi to 
testify on this general subject of organized crime in interstate com- 
merce, because the language of the subpena seems rather inconsistent 
with the subject matter under inquiry. 



112 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. May I read it, sir ? 
Mr. Fulton. Yes, please. 
Mr. Nellis (reading) : 

Pursuant to lawful authority, you are hereby commanded to appear, then and 
there to testify what you may know relative to the subject matters under con- 
sideration by said committee. 

Mr. Fulton. The subpena asks to bring certain records about his 
personal financial transactions, and I cannot tell if it is not a subpena 
whether it is a charge. 

I might say that I came over here today and I have changed my 
mind about one thing. I came here prepared to file an appropriate 
action in the district court for declaratory judgment with injunction 
incidental and ancillary to it, to have declared the validity, the suffi- 
ciency, and the meaning, the intendment, and the scope of this sub- 
pena, the status of this respondent — I will call him that — in relation 
to the inquiry and by reason of the subpena; but, because of things 
that did transpire earlier in connection with another witness at the 
very early stages of this case, I have decided presently at least not 
to file any such action as that. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Fulton 

Mr. Fulton. I am going to ask that this session be a private and 
secret one, at which I assure you this witness will testify freely and 
without reliance upon any privilege allowed by statute. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Fulton, the witness is now before the committee, 
and may I suggest that, whether or not prior to his appearance you 
had objection to the subpena or any of its language, he is now before 
the committee; has made an appearance, and, therefore, is subject to 
the jurisdiction of the committee. 

Mr. Fulton. I have permitted him to be sworn. 

Mr. Halley. That is right, and he must answer all questions relating 
to the subject matter concerning which the Senate of the United States 
has given this committee jurisdiction. 

Therefore, it would seem to me that the best thing to do is just 
go ahead and as we have in the past attempt to stay within the 
confines of the committee's jurisdiction. 

Mr. Fulton. I am not so much interested in what is the best 
thing as I am interested in what is the proper thing for my client, and 
I do propose that we go ahead. I am hopeful that you will do it in 
executive session. I cannot insist on that because I realize, first, it 
is a matter of discretion and judgment with the committee and, second, 
that we have made this appearance. But whichever way it is done, 
this gentleman here will be cooperative. 

The Chairman. All right. We appreciate that, Mr. Fulton. I 
know that you mean it, you have taken a very friendly attitude. We 
will certainly try to see that your client is not imposed upon but if 
we had an executive session then we would have to have an open one 
afterward and so I cannot see that a great deal would be accomplished. 

Mr. Fulton. May I say one thing on this limited purpose? I 
suppose it is about the exhibits? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Fulton. Now, Mr. Polizzi told me when he first saw me 
yesterday that he was under an obligation as there was also an im- 
plied promise, if not a direct one, to furnish certain records prior to 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 113 

the time of his appearance. Now gentlemen and Senator Kefauver, 
the declination thus far not to present them does not rest on him 
but on me, his lawyer. 

I didn't want to send him over alone. I didn't want them put in my 
possession to be brought over because I have been taught by my good 
friend, Don Miller and his office, the clerk's office here of the United 
States court, to be very careful about handing exhibits in. I had dif- 
ficulty last week trying to get some exhibits from the clerk's office to 
be used in a case in the common pleas court. So don't blame Mr. 
Polizzi. We are here now and he has with him some records. 

The Chairman. All right. Let's see what you have, Mr. Polizzi. 

Mr. Polizzi. Are you allowed to smoke? 

The Chairman. No smoking. I am sorry. It is harder on me than 
anybody else. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, Mr. Polizzi, may we have your name and 
address, just for the record, please? 

Mr. Polizzi. My name is Alfred Polizzi and I reside at 6857 Granada 
Boulevard, Coral Gables. 

Mr. Nellis. Any other residences? 

Mr. Polizzi. Business address, if you would like. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, may I have that, please ? 

Mr. Polizzi. 300 Rinello, the same city, Coral Gables. 

Mr. Nellis. What business is that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's construction, general construction. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the name of it? 

Mr. Polizzi. Thompson & Polizzi. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought any records in response to this sub- 
pen a issued upon you ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, I have. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you make a promise in Florida to anyone to deliver 
them prior to the hearing ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I would like to explain that. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, did you bring 

The Chairman. Anyway, he has agreed to but his counsel told him 
not to. 

Mr. Polizzi. I beg your pardon. 

Mr. Fulton. I didn't tell him not to but I saw that it wasn't done. 

Mr. Polizzi. May I say what transpired between Mr. Mills and 
myself ? 

Mr. Nellis. Let's save that until tomorrow, Mr. Polizzi. You have 
the records here with you, right? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you please identify them for the record as you 
hand them to the chairman. 

Mr. Polizzi. I have got property deeds here. Some of them might 
be duplicates, copies. 

Mr. Fulton. I might say some I know are because I find they are 
duplicates of exhibits already in the record. 

Mr. Polizzi. Some of these are copies. 

The Chairman. All right. You have a group of property deeds. 
Let's have them marked as exhibit No. 39. 

Mr. Polizzi. Oh, yes. Here are some photostatic copies of some 
property as well. I had those mailed to me, as you can see. 



114 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Will you identify them loudly so the reporter can hear 
you ? Identify what you are giving the chairman. 

Mr. Polizzi. I have already turned it in. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. Go ahead. 

Mr. Polizzi. I have here an undocumented number on the Wood 
Duck which is a boat that I own. 

The Chairman. We will make that exhibit No. 40. 

Mr. Fulton. When you say you are making it an exhibit, then you 
are receiving it in evidence now ? 

The Chairman. That's right. 

Mr. Fulton. I object to the receipt in evidence of those exhibits 
as not being pertinent to the subject under inquiry in view of the testi- 
mony already in this record by Mr. Sullivan on page 152. 

The Chairman. Your objection for the time being will be over- 
ruled. 

I think most of these we can turn back shortly. Some of them 
we may want to make copies of. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Polizzi, can we get along ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I'm terribly sorry. 

Here is an agreement here on a piece of property that was pur- 
chased for my wife. I don't know whether that belongs in here or not. 

The Chairman. Anyway, it is. 

Mr. Polizzi. That property has been sold. It is listed between 
the Marmon Realty Co. and Alfred Polizzi. That property has been 
sold. 

The Chairman. That is exhibit No. 41. 

Mr. Polizzi. Here is another one that deals in lots, property. 

The Chairman. This document dated September 26, 1947, will 
be exhibit No. 42. 

Mr. Polizzi. Here is a partnership agreement for the Sands Hotel. 

The Chairman. Partnership agreement, 15th of August 1946, will 
be exhibit No. 43. 

Mr. Polizzi. I have a number of closing statements here on real 
estate. 

The Chairman. Will you put them all together? We will treat 
them as exhibit No. 44. 

Mr. Polizzi. I have here some statements relative to this property 
in Cleveland, and a closing statement of the sale thereof. 

The Chairman. Mark that as exhibit No. 45. 

Mr. Polizzi. I also have here a closing statement in a deal with the 
home that I sold. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 46. 

Mr. Polizzi. I also have here some more lots and closing statements 
and cost — and selling price of the various lots in question, namely, the 
University Estates. 

The Chairman. That will be marked exhibit No. 47. 

(Exhibits Nos. 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, and 47, witness Alfred 
Polizzi, were returned to the witness after analysis by the com- 
mittee.) 

Mr. Polizzi. That is the holding company — what is the name of 
that holding company? 

Mr. Nellis. H. I. 

Mr. Polizzi. H. I. Holding Co. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115 

I don't know — gentlemen, I think that is about all with the ex- 
ception of 

Mr. Nellis. How about your income-tax record for 1945 to the 
present ? 

Mr. Fulton. Before we go into that, taking these exhibits 39 
through 47 — and before I object to the receipt of them as not being 
pertinent to the subject matter under inquiry, I would like to ask 
Mr. Polizzi two or three questions. 

Are you engaged in any criminal activities ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am not. 

Mr. Fulton. Are you engaged in any crime in interstate commerce? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am not. 

Mr. Fulton. Are you engaged in any organized crime in interstate • 
commerce. 

Mr. Polizzi. I am not. 

Mr. Fulton. Are you engaged in any organized crime of any kind, 
State or Federal ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am not engaged in any illegitimate business or crime 
of any sort. 

Mr. Fulton. These exhibits 39 to 47, both inclusive, relate to finan- 
cial transactions having to do with purchase and sale of real estate and 
other types of business transactions? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Fulton. Do they have anything to do with crime or criminal 
transactions? 

Mr. Polizzi. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Fulton. They all relate to matters since 1945 as the subpena 
directs? 

Mr. Polizzi. Right. 

Mr. Fulton. We object to the receipt of 39 to 47, inclusive, because 
they do not pertain to the subject matter under inquiry. I just want 
the record to show that. I know what Your Honor will probably 
rule. 

The Chairman. Yes, all right. 

Mr. Nellis. Where are the tax returns, Mr. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Fulton. The tax returns are here. I wanted those separated 
because I am objecting to those on a different ground. 

The Chairman. Can all the tax returns be marked "Exhibit No. 48" ? 

Mr. Fulton. I object, because I have knowledge of no way by which 
any taxpayer can be compelled to show his copy except in a case in 
the Federal court where the tax question is at issue and the United 
States Government is a party to the case. 

I do know that it is almost impossible for officials who have to do 
with them to present from them or testify from them or about them 
by virtue of the section 55, title 26, or 55 of the Internal Revenue Code, 
and I suppose that you have got — this special committee surely has 
received some Executive order which has placed into your possession 
the originals of these. 

Gentlemen, in this very room only about 

The Chairman. Mr. Fulton, of course we can get the information 
from the tax returns. We asked the witness to bring them in. 

Mr. Fulton. They are going to be submitted, but I want the record 
to show my position about it. 



116 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Polizzi. I am sorry, but there is one more statement here with 
reference to another home that was sold in Cleveland. 

The Chairman. That will be 

Mr. Fulton. This one ought to be exhibit No. 48. 

The Chairman. This one will be exhibit No. 48. 

Mr. Fulton. And No. 49 will be the tax returns? 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 49 will be the tax returns. 

(Exhibits No. 48 and 49 were later returned to the witness.) 

Mr. Fulton. Having said my say, you will find there will be very 
little objections or exceptions from here on. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Fulton. Thank you. 

Now, is that all ? 

Mr. Nellis. Have you brought any other records ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe that is all with the exception of some tax 
receipts that I have here, I mean city and county local tax. 

Mr. Nellis. The burden is on you. Have you brought all your 
records ? 

The Chairman. Would you mind, Mr. Fulton, if. after the hearing, 
if Mr. Nellis or Mr. Klein would look at these miscellaneous tax re- 
ceipts he has in his bag and see if they have any relevancy, and if they 
don't, why then, we won't bother with them ; if they do, he can bring 
them in in the morning. 

Mr. Fulton. I have no objection to that. 

The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 9 : 30. 

Mr. Polizzi, you be back in the morning at 9 : 30. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, sir. 

(Thereupon, at 6 : 10 p. m., January 17, 1951, the hearing was re- 
cessed until 9 : 30 a. m., January 18, 1951.) 



INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



THURSDAY, JANUARY 18, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Cleveland, Ohio. 

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 9 : 35 a. m., in 
room 318 Federal Building, Senator Estes Kefauver, chairman, 
presiding. 

Present : Senator Kefauver. 

Also present : Rudolph Halley, chief counsel ; Joseph L. Nellis, 
assistant counsel ; John McCormick, investigator. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

We will defer calling Mr. Polizzi until later in the morning. 

At this time, Mr. Giesey, who brought in certain records yester- 
day, will be recalled. Ask Mr. Giesey to come around, please. 

We will stand in recess for about 2 minutes. I think our witness is 
on his way over. 

(Short recess.) 

The Chairman. All right. I understand Mr. Giesey is here. Let 
him come around. 

I must admonish witnesses that in the future when they are asked 
to be here at a certain time to be on hand at that time. 

The chairman has received a telegram from Joseph Duke, Sergeant- 
at-Arms of the United States Senate with reference to the so-called 
witnesses who are missing. It states : 

Service of subpenas not possible because the men sought are in hiding. In- 
formation to their whereabouts has been furnished to the United States Mar- 
shal in Miami, Fla., and Las Vegas, Nev. 
Sincerely, 

Joseph C. Duke, 
Sergeant-at-Arms, United States Senate. 

We might state we are still trying to find these witnesses and we 
do expect to locate them and have them testify before we get through. 

Also, I want to restate what I said yesterday morning, that if any- 
one's name is brought out in this hearing who feels that their name has 
been improperly used or they want to make any explanation or 
denial or amplification of what has been said, we want to invite them 
to let us know about it because we do not want to leave Cleveland 
with anybody feeling that they didn't have a chance to present their 
explanation of their side of any controversy that comes up here. 

117 



118 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF ALVIN E. GIESEY, ACCOUNTANT, ACCOM- 
PANIED BY TIMOTHY McMAHON, ATTORNEY 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Giesey, I hope that in the future when 
witnesses are called for a specific time that they will be here promptly 
when they are called. 

Mr. McMahon. I would like to make an explanation for a moment, 
Senator. Mr. McCormick called my office at 9 o'clock, and I was 
on my way downtown 

Mr. Nellis. We made efforts to call before that. 

Mr. McMahon. Well, I think it is satisfactory. 

The Chairman. Very well. Let's proceed, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. McMahon. Before we proceed, Mr. Senator 

Mr. Nellis. Let me ask my first question, sir. 

Mr. McMahon. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. You have given your name and address for the record. 
Would you do that again, please ? 

Mr. Giesey. Alvin E. Giesey, Gridley Road, Shaker Heights, Ohio. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you give us your office address ? 

Mr. Giesey. 601 Bulkley Building. 

Mr. Nellis. And you are a certified public accountant? 

Mr. Giesey. I am not a certified public accountant. I am a prac- 
ticing public accountant. 

The Chairman. Mr. McMahon, did you have some statement? 

Mr. McMahon. Yes. I just want you to know that we are continu- 
ing in the manner which we did yesterday. 

The Chairman. That is understood. 

Mr. McMahon. I want to show my continuing objection to the fact 
that the other four members of the committee are not present. 

The Chairman. Yes ; we understand that. All right, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Giesey 

Mr. McMahon. Just a moment. There is one thing that Mr. Giesey, 
in line with what you first expressed, Senator, would like to say. 

In the Cleveland Press last evening there appeared a statement to 
the effect that the 5,000 shares of United Aircraft stock is worth 
$180,000. Now, he has some explanation of that. 

Mr. Nellis. Can we hold that until we get to it ? 

The Chairman. All right. Let him make his explanation. How 
much is it worth ? 

Mr. Giesey. In the article it states 5,000 shares of United Aircraft 
Corp., Inc., stock, this was listed on the exchange as worth $36 a share 
or $180,000. 

In the Cleveland Press for the same date, if they would look on the 
stock exchange, they will find that the United Aircraft Products was 
sold at a high of $0.50 per share, a low of $6.25 per share, and closed 
at 6%, which makes a difference of $160,000 between what the Cleve- 
land Press showed that stock was worth and what I read into the 
record telling where that stock was listed and everything else yester- 
day, and I just wondered if the Senator had the impression that I was 
that wealthy. I just wanted to correct it. 

The Chairman. All right. We will deduct from your wealth, Mr. 
Giesey. 

Mr. Giesey. That I would take on my tax return. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 119 

The Chairman. The confusion probably comes — they probably 
looked at Detroit Steel Corp. instead of United Aircraft. I think 
the figure is about right for Detroit. 

Mr. Giesey. No. Detroit Steel stock was around 31 yesterday. 

The Chairman. Thirty-two, I believe, yesterday. 

Mr. Giesey. It might be 32. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, Mr. Giesey, would you tell the chairman of 
your background ? Are you from Cleveland originally ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. When were you born ? 

Mr. Giesey. In Wheeling, W. Va., 1898. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you study public accounting in Cleveland? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you go to work for the Bureau of Internal 
Revenue ? 

Mr. Giesey. 1920. 

Mr. Nellis. In the Cleveland office? 

Mr. Giesey. In Washington. 

Mr. Nellis. Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. Giesey. Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Nellis. And when did you come to Cleveland with the Bureau? 

Mr. Giesey. 1921. 

Mr. Nellis. And what were your duties there ? 

Mr. Giesey. Internal revenue agent. 

Mr. Nellis. Intelligence Unit ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; internal revenue agent's office. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, did you have anything to do with the investiga- 
tion which resulted in a conviction of Morris Kleinman on November 
2, 1933, for income-tax evasion, for which he received a sentence of 
4 years and a $15,000 fine? 

Mr. Giesey. I was one of the internal-revenue agents conducting 
that investigation. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, would you go into that a little more deeply and 
tell the committee what you did, and whether or not you testified 
before the grand jury, and so on? 

Mr. Giesey. I think the investigation of the Kleinman case may 
have covered a period of a year or more, which culminated in a hear- 
ing before the grand jury, presenting evidence, together with other 
witnesses, which resulted in an indictment. 

Mr. Nellis. Which occurred approximately when? 1933? 

Mr. Giesey. I would say it is in 1931 or 1932. 

Mr. Nellis. And was that the first time you had met Mr. Kleinman ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is the first time, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, in various years, you or your partner — by the 
way, when did you form your partnership with Sauers ? 

Mr. Giesey. I was in business for myself until I was called into the 
Army as a field artillery officer in the Reserve Corps, late in 1942, and 
I had to take a partner in with me to carry on my business, I hoped. 

Mr. Nellis. But when did you leave the Bureau of Internal 
Revenue ? 

Mr. Giesey. 1934. 



120 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. So from 1934 until 1941 you practiced public account- 
ing by yourself, is that right ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did Mr. Kleinman come to you subsequent to the 
conviction and ask you to do any work for him ? When was the first 
time he came to you and asked you to do any work for him ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think it was about 2 years after I was out of the 
Government service that Mr. Kleinman came to me. He said he had 
one thing in mind and that was to engage me for the purpose of seeing 
that from now on he didn't get in any more trouble with his income- 
tax returns. 

Mr. Nellis. And he did in fact engage you at that time, is that 
right ? 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Kleinman engaged me at that time and I think I 
have been making his tax returns out ever since that time. 

Mr. Nellis. Through Mr. Kleinman you met various people, is 
that right? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you meet Mr. Al Polizzi through him ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't recall that ; no. 

Mr. Nellis. Who did you meet ? How did you meet Mr. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't definitely recall, Mr. Nellis, how I met him, 
but I don't think it was through Morris Kleinman; it might have 
been. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you meet John Angersola ? 

Mr. Giesey. Probably through Mr. Polizzi. 

Mr. Nellis. But you don't recall who introduced you to Polizzi? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I don't, Mr. Nellis. It could have been back 
in 1936 or 1937 which is 13 years ago and I wouldn't recall how I met 
a lot of people. 

Mr. Nellis. You testified that you may have met John Angersola 
through Polizzi, is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. I think that is possible ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you meet Charles — Chuck Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. Probably through this same combination. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, now, aren't you sure in your own mind how you 
first got to meet Mr. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Or Mr. Angersola? 

Mr. Giesey. I am not sure how I met those gentlemen, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How about Moe Dalitz? When did you first meet 
him ? 

Mr. Geisey. I probably met him in connection with Morris Klein- 
man, about the same time. 

Mr. Nellis. What year was that ? 

Mr. GiESEy. Maybe 1936. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he introduce you as his tax consultant? Did Mr. 
Kleinman introduce you to Mr. Dalitz as his tax consultant? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't think he used those pari icular words. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, now, Mr. Giesey, tell us this story. 

Mr. Giesey. If you can tell me what you want 

Mr. Nellis. All right, 

Mr. Giesey. Maybe I can tell you, Mr. Nellis. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 121 

Mr. Nellis. You have testified that you met Dalitz probably 
through Kleinman. Aren't you sure ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, I am very positive I met him through Mr. Klein- 
man. 

Mr. Neixis. What was the conversation at that time, do you recall 
that? 

Mr. Giesey. As I recall, Mr. Kleinman and what associates he had 
engaged me for one purpose and that was to see that they filed proper 
income-tax returns and had the proper records to substantiate them, 
and that is evidenced by the fact that the Government has checked 
those income-tax returns through and including the year 1948 and 
their tax cases are closed to that date. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you meet Louis Rothkopf ? 

Mr. Giesey. Through — unquestionably through Kleinman. 

Mr. Nellis. Kleinman was the key man who introduced you to all 
of these people we have been talking about? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't say Mr. Kleinman was the key man; he is 
the man I knew first. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is the key man ? 

Mr. Giesey. I would have met Mr. Dalitz and Mr. Dalitz could 
have introduced me to Rothkopf. 

Mr. Nellis. How would Dalitz get to you before Kleinman? How 
would he know about you ? 

Mr. Giesey. Through Kleinman. I could have met them all al 
the same time. 

Mr. Nellis. How about Sam Tucker? 

Mr. Giesey. That could have happened at the same time. 

Mr. Nellis. How about Mushy Wexler? When did you meet him? 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, I don't know. That was some years later. I 
wouldn't recall when I met Mtishy Wexler, or I don't remember where 
I met Mushy Wexler. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he come to your office. 

Mr. Giesey. I don't know whether he came to my office or I met 
him on the street or where I met him. I met Mushy Wexler, but where, 
I do not know, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. You know all of these people well, don't you ? 

Mr. Giesey. I know all of those people professionally, not socially. 

Mr. Nellis. You know them pretty well, don't you ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir ; I do. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been in any of their homes ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think I was in Mr. Polizzi's home. 

Mr. Nellis. Which Polizzi? 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Al Polizzi's home. When? 

Mr. Nellis. Where and when ? 

Mr. Giesey. When he lived in Shaker Heights. 
Mr. Nellis. What year, about ? 

Mr. Giesey. Prior to the war. 

Mr. Nellis. That was a social visit? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. I may have called over there for something 
in connection with a business matter. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you bring your wife with you when you called on 
him? 

Mr. Giesey. That I don't recall. 



122 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Does your wife know Mrs. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How about John Angersola ? Have you ever visited 
in his home? 

Mr. Giesey. I have never been in his home ; no, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Charles Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Moe Dalitz ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Louis Kothkopf ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes ; I have been in Mr. Rothkopf s home. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is his home ? 

Mr. Giesey. It is in Chagrin Falls. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that Bainbridge Road, is that south of Chagrin 
Falls? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. What does he have there? 

Mr. Giesey. He has a home. 

Mr. Nellis. Is it a farm or an estate ? 

Mr. Giesey. He has a farm that he operates as a farm. He has his 
home there. 

Mr. Nellis. How big a place is it, Mr. Giesey ? 

Mr. Giesey. It might be several acres. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you get to meet Mr. Samuel T. Haas? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I have known Mr. Haas, I would say, since about 
1935. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you meet him ? 

Mr. Giesey. Wlien I was in the internal revenue services, we were — - 
I was engaged with another revenue agent on checking one Mr. Kohler, 
formerly mayor of the city of Cleveland. 

Mr. McMahon. Fred Kohler? 

Mr. Giesey. Fred Kohler. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. And something came up, I don't know what it was. I 
called on Mr. Haas in connection with it. 

Mr. Nellis. Was he representing Mr. Kohler ? 

Mr. Giesey. He might have been. Mr. Kohler was dead at that 
time so we were talking to anybody we could get any information 
from. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that the same case where a large sum of cash was 
found in a strongbox? 

Mr. Giesey. That is the case. 

Mr. Nellis. Could you tell me about the strongbox and the cash, 
briefly ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, whether I am in a position to disclose any in- 
formation that I obtained as a revenue agent is something that I would 
like to 

Mi-. Nellis. Give it to us generally without exposing any con- 
fidences. It is a matter of common knowledge, isn't it? 

Mi-. Giesey. No, sir; I don't think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, a large sum of money was found in a cash box 
in that estate case; isn't that a matter of common knowledge? 

The Chairman. I will rule that you can tell it all right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 123 

Mr. McMahon. What has a strongbox in Fred Kohler's estate 
have to do with 

Mr. Nellis. What does Mr. Giesey know about that situation in- 
volving a strongbox found at the time in Fred Kohler's estate? 

Mr. McMahon. Tell him what you know, if you know it definitely. 

Mr. Giesey. The only definite knowledge I have of that, another 
internal-revenue agent and myself went to the bank and got a record 
from the bank what was in that strongbox. We didn't discover the 
strongbox when Mr. Kohler died ; I think it was of record in his name, 
and when they opened the box, they found certain securities in there. 
I don't recall any cash being in the box. I think they were United 
States 

Mr. Nellis. What were the securities worth, roughly ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think they were United States bonds. It was several 
hundred thousand dollars. I don't recall. 

Mr. Nellis. That is the Fred Kohler who was former mayor of this 
city? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. You may have met Mr. Haas in the course of that 
investigation? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. You are sure you were not introduced to him by Klein- 
man? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; I know I was* not. 

Mr. Nellis. ( )r by any of the others we have mentioned ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; I know I was not. 

Mr. Nellis. You are positive of that? 

Mr. Giesey. Very positive of that. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you meet Jerry Milano? 

Mr. Giesey. Jerry Milano is another client that was handled by our 
office as a routine matter, and I met Jerry Milano when he came in the 
office. I didn't even know who he was. 

Mr. Nellis. What did he say to you at the time he came ? 

Mr. McMahon. May we have the time and place? 

Mr. Nellis. Approximately when was it? Let's ask that first. 
When was it that Jerry Milano came to you and where and how did he 
happen to come there and what did he say ? Can you give us the story 
on that? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, Mr. Nellis. I think it must have been back in 1939. 
He said he was going in the jukebox business or pinball machines at 
that time and wanted us to file his income-tax returns. 

Mr. Nellis. Did it ever come to your notice in filing any of his 
returns or those of the Buckeye Catering Co., that there were anything 
besides pinball and skill game machines involved? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know anything about slot machines in that 
company ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; I do not. Let me say one thing, Mr. Nellis. 
There is some 300 tax returns we prepare. We are talking about maybe 
10 or 15 and for me to remember all those details, I think is making it 
quite 

Mr. Nellis. Well, do the best you can. I think we are getting along 
very well. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 9 



124 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. I can assure you I am going to do the very best I can. 

Mr. Nellis. I think we are getting along very well, and if you will 
just try try to remember, we will do all right. 

Mr. Giesey. I will try to do the best I can. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, you don't remember any slot-machine income of 
the Buckeye Catering Co. ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I don't think we had any slot machines around 
here after 1939. There could have been ; I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, in 1949, they list your firm on their records, which 
are in the committee file, as receiving a weekly expense of $750. What 
is that about ? 

Mr. Giesey. Will you restate that, please ? 

Mr. Nellis. In 1949, the Buckeye Catering books list the firm of 
Giesey & Sauers as receiving $750 a week. 

Mr. McMahon. What record is that ? May we have that identified ? 

Mr. Giesey. I would like to see the record, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, we have it here. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, if we got $750, my partner 

Mr. Nellis. Now, who is John Scalish ? 

Mr. Giesey. John Scalish? I don't think we ever had anything 
to do with John Scalish that I know of. 

Mr. McMahon. How do you spell that ? 

Mr. Nellis. S-c-a-1-i-s-h. 

Mr. Giesey. I don't think I -have ever done any work for John 
Scalish that I know of, except I think his 1949 tax return has been pre- 
pared by our office. 

Mr. Nellis. Let the record show that John Scalish, 11706 Farring- 
don Road, Cleveland, Ohio, filed returns for 1948 and 1949, Giesey & 
Sauers the persons who filed the returns. 

Mr. Giesey. It is possible we prepared it. If our name is on it, 
I know we prepared it. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, who is he ? 

Mr. Giesey. John Scalish ? May I see what the tax return shows ? 
I wouldn't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, do you know A. Goltsman ? 

Mr. McMahon. How do you spell that? 

Mr. Nellis. G-o-l-t-s-m-a-n. 

Mr. Giesey. I don't recall. 

Mr. Nellis. How about Rudy Kolod ? You know Rudy, don't you ? 

Mr. Giesey. I know Rudy Kolod ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And George Gordon? You know George Gordon? 
Right? 

Mr. Giesey. That I do. 

Mr. Nellis. Weren't they the upper crust in the Pettibone Club? 

Mr. McMahon. I object to that. Let's have what "upper crust" is. 

The Chairman. Well, who are these people ? 

The Chairman. Well, were they the maangers ? Did they own the 
Pettibone? 

Mr. McMahon. If you are a manager, are you upper crust ? 
Mr. Giesey. Well, I think you will notice on those records I turned 
over to you, Mr. Nellis, of the social security tax returns for the Petti- 
bone Catering Co., that Gordon, Kolod, and Goltsman show on there 
as partners. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 125 

The Chairman. Now, let me get who were the partners ? 

Mr. Nellis. Goltsmati, Kolod, and Gordon. 

Mr. McMahon. Do we have the actual income tax return available 
so it might refresh his recollection ? 

Mr. Nellis. We have it in the file. I will be glad to give him copies 
from time to time. 

Now, Mr. Giesey, isn't it a fact that these people we are talking about 
now were the actual managers of the Pettibone Club? Surely you 
must have gotten to know that. 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir; they are the men that were at the club; yes, 
sir. 

Mr. Nellis. But they weren't the owners, were they? 

Mr. Giesey. That I have no knowledge of, whether they were the 
owners. The only information I have is what they told me, that 
they were the managers there, or the partners. 

If I showed on any return that those three men were associated with 
that club, I got that information from them and them only. I had 
no personal knowledge of the fact. 

Mr. Nellis. There isn't any doubt in your mind that you filed 
returns for the Pettibone Club, is there ? 

Mr. Giesey. I filed returns for the Pettibone Club. There is no 
doubt about that. 

Mr. Nellis. There is no doubt in your mind that in filing returns 
for the Pettibone Club you must have got to know a little bit about 
the operations of the club and how much it made ? 

Mr. Giesey. Obviously, if I filed their returns, I would know how 
much it made because it would appear on the return. 

Mr. Nellis. During all these 3 years you have testified now you met 
these people, you don't remember too well how you met them except 
those you met through Kleinman, is that right? You got in pretty 
well with them ? 

Mr. McMahon. Objection to that. What do you mean "you got 
in pretty well with them?" He did the tax returns. 

The Chairman. Did they get to be well acquainted? 

Mr. McMahon. Very well. If it is that kind of a question, all right. 

Mr. Giesey. I know those men ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And you associated with them outside of income return 
business, is that right ? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't say that I did. I absolutely did not associ- 
ate with those men socially. 

Mr. Nellis. Did they call you at your home and you at theirs? 

Mr. McMahon. Senator, we are speaking of "they," and we have 
talked about probably 15 or 20 people. May we have a specific person 
named, and then find out what his acquaintance is with that particular 
person ? 

The Chairman. Did these various men who have been mentioned 
here call you at your home ? Did you see them outside 

Mr. Giesey. If any of those men called me at my home it would 
pertain to a matter of business and that is all. 

Mr. Nellis. And that includes long-distance calls you may have 
made to them ? 

Mr. Giesey. That would include long-distance calls or any other 
calls; yes. 



126 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know William Schwartz ? 

Mr. Gieset. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you meet William Schwartz ? 

Mr. Giesey. I met Mr. Schwartz probably back in 103 — . 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know James Patton? 

Mr. Giesey. I know James Patton. 

Mr. Nellis. Is he also known as "Shimmy" Patton ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is the same party. 

Mr. Nellis. What is their business ? 

Mr. Giesey. Schwartz and Patton were in a club in Chesapeake, 
Ohio. 

Mr. Nellis. What do you mean, a club? Wasn't it a gambling 
casino ? 

Mr. Giesey. It was a gambling casino. 

Mr. Nellis. Known as the Chesapeake Catering Co. ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. How did Mr. Schwartz happen to come to you in con- 
nection with that matter ? 

Mr. McMahon. Did he come to him first ? 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking the questions. You object and the chair- 
man will rule. 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Nellis, I don't recall the details of how these people 
came to me. I will admit I prepared their income-tax returns. Now, 
the detail leading up to that would be just one small incident in a 
year's work that I wouldn't have any occasion for remembering, and 
there is no significance that I could see to anything here as to when 
I met those men or anything else. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you allow the chairman to determine that? 

Mr. Giesey. That I will ; sure. 

Mr. Nellis. I asked you whether you could tell us how you hap- 
pened to meet William Schwartz, and you say you don't remember; 
is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. I probably met Mr. Schwartz through Shimmy Patton. 
I didn't know him before. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that Mr. Schwartz served time for a 
very serious offense ? 

Mr. Giesey. That I did. 

Mr. Nellis. What was that offense, do you know ? 

Mr. Giesey. He shot somebody over in back of the Hollenden Hotel. 

Mr. Nellis. And he was convicted of first-degree murder, wasn't he ? 

Mr. Giesey. That I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. No, he wasn't. He was convicted of manslaughter, I'm 
sorry, and he served a term after that, is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. That I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever discuss that with him ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. I don't discuss a matter of that type with any 
of those people. That is personal. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Sam Schraeder? 

Mr. Giesey. I know Sam Schraeder. 

Mr. Nellis. How well do you know him ? 

Mr. Giesey. As a client. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever write him any letters or communicate 
with him? 

Mr. Giesey. Not to my knowledge. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 127 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, I desire to enter in evidence a letter 
from Mr. Giesey to Mr. Schraeder, and I would like to have him read 
the letter and the postscripts and explain that. 

Mr. McMahon. May the witness see it first ? 

Mr. Nellis. Oh, sure. 

Mr. McMahon. It may refresh his recollection as to whether he 
communicated with him. 

The Chairman. For identification the letter is dated April 19, 1949, 
Giesey & Sauers. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that your letterheard ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that your signature? 

Mr. Giesey. That is my signature ; yes. 

What explanation do you want of that other than it is self-explan- 
atory, I would say, Mr. Nellis? 

Mr. Nellis. What does it say ? 

Mr. Giesey. There is a payment coming up on social-security tax of 
$106.75, and I sent a letter to Mr. Schraeder together with the forms 
to see that it got to the proper people to sign and pay the tax. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you send the letter? To the place ad- 
dressed ? 

Mr. Giesey. Beverly Hills Club, Alexandria Pike, Newport, Ky. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you be surprised to learn that that letter was 
found behind lock and key at the Colony Club at Chesapeake, Ohio ? 

Mr. Giesey. That I would have no knowledge of. 

Mr. Nellis. Would it surprise you to find that ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, it wouldn't surprise me anything in that. 

Mr. Nellis. Just a moment. I would like you to read the letter. 
Now, read the postscripts and tell me whether it is in your hand- 
writing — in your own handwriting? 

Mr. Giesey. It is in my own handwriting. 

Mr. Nellis. Read it. 

Mr. Giesey (reading) : 

Sam, am sending this to you to see that the right person gets it. Inasmuch as 
everything is presently closed at Chesapeake, C-h-e-s 

Mr. Nelis. And signed ? 

Mr. Giesey. A-l — Al. 

The Chairman. Let the letter be made an exhibit to the testimony. 
Let's mark this "Exhibit No. 50." That will identify it, 

(Letter identified as exhibit No. 50 appears in the appendix on 
p. 457.) 

Mr. Nellis. Will you give me an explanation of — I withdraw that. 
I will rephrase it this way : What did you mean, "Sam, am sending 
this to you to see that the right person gets it" ? 

Mr. Giesey. By the "right person," the person that was in a position 
to sign it and pay it. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was the right person ? 

Mr. McMahon. He obviously didn't know. 

The Chairman. Let's see whether he knows. 

Mr. Giesey. What is the name of the company that is referred to? 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Samuel Schraeder. 

Mr. Giesey. No. It refers to a company. Not Beverly Hills. Let 
me see the letter again. 

Mr. Nellis. Sure. 



128 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. It refers to the Union Enterprise, so it pertained for 
Mr. Schraeder to get somebody that was connected with the Union 
Enterprise to pay $106.75 social-security tax. 

Mr. Nellis. What has Mr. Schraeder got to do with the Union En- 
terprise % Is he in that ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think Mr. Schraeder is in the Union Enterprise. 

Mr. Nellis. But you addressed it to Beverly Hills Country Club. 

Mr. Giesey. Because Mr. Schraeder was at Beverly Hills. 

Mr. Nellis. When? 

Mr. Giesey. Presumably at the time I sent it. I didn't know Mr. 
Schraeder's home address, so I sent it there. 

Mr. Nellis. Just one moment, please. 

What was the last question? 

(Question read.) 

Mr. Nellis. Where? 

Mr. McMahon. It is on the letter. 

Mr. Nellis. But you knew he was connected with Union Enterprise 
down in Chesapeake ; is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. What you were saying is that everything was closed 
down there ? 

Mr. Giesey. And there was nobody there to address it to. 

Mr. Nellis. Why was it closed ? 

Mr. Giesey. They went out of business. 

Mr. Nellis. How was it closed ? 

Mr. Giesey. What is the date on the letter again?. I better keep 
that letter. 

Mr. Nellis. April 19, 1949. 

Mr. Giesey. How was it closed ? 

Mr. Nellis. You said the place was closed. 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. There was nobody down there to send 
anything to, so I sent it to 

Mr. Nellis. Why was it closed ? Who closed it ? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't know who closed it. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know anything about that ? 

Mr. Giesey. All I know is what I read in the newspapers. 

Mr. Nellis. You know all about these fellows' tax returns, you 
know all about their business, but you don't know how it was closed ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Giesey. Now, wait a minute. I have no personal knowledge 
other than what I read in the newspapers. 

Mr. Nellis. Tell me what you read. 

Mr. Giesey. After this press experience, I don't know whether I 
should believe what I read in the newspapers. 

Mr. McMahon. If he wants it, Mr. Giesey, tell him what you read 
in the newspapers. 

Mr. Giesey. That's right, I read in the newspaper where Mr. Rut- 
kowski and Governor Lausche and certain other people raided a place 
in Chesapeake, Ohio, and closed it. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. Very good. 

You would be surprised to — or, you said you would not be surprised 
to find that this was picked up in the Colony Club? 

Mr. McMahon. I object to the word "surprised," Senator. He 
keeps using that word, and after this thing I don't think anybody is 
going to be surprised about anything. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129 

Mr. Nellis. I agree with Mr. McMahon. 
The Chairman. Mr. McMahon, I am sure- 



Mr. McMahon. Can he confine the questions to specific informa- 
tion? 

The Chairman. We will get along all right, Mr. McMahon. I 
think the witness understands the question. 

Mr. Giesey. What was the last question again ? 

The Chairman. Would you be surprised to find that this was in 
the Colony Club? 

Mr. Giesey. I have already answered that. 

Mr. McMahon. We are not probing the man's mind as to whether 
or not he is surprised. 

• The Chairman. Mr. McMahon, if you have specific objections, why, 
make them to the chairman. 

Mr. Giesey. Senator, I think I have already stated that I wasn't 
surprised. 

The Chairman. I think that is right. So let's go on. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Giesey, we have had your books and records and 
we have examined them, and you have been before the staff of the 
committee twice, and you have been before the chairman once. We 
have examined the information. 

What would you estimate your net worth to be? 

Mr. McMahon. I object to the question, and I think that that is 
not a problem for this Commission or committee. 

The Chairman. Let's defer the question for the time being until 
we see 

Mr. McMahon. I will say this, Senator 

The Chairman. Mr. McMahon, we will defer the answer to the 
question for the time being until we see just what Mr. Giesey has been 
engaged in and what he does. 

Mr. McMahon. I think it would be probably better to find out 
what he has, what stocks he has, what bonds he owns. 

The Chairman. Mr. McMahon. we grant more leeway than most 
congressional investigating committees, but I have already ruled with 
you for the time being, so you can be quiet. 

Mr. McMahon. Very well. I don't want to 

Mr. Nellis. You own your own home, Mr. Giesey ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you buy it? 

Mr. Giesey. 1940, I think. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did you pay for it? 

Mr. Giesey. $13,000. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you own any other real estate ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't even own that. That is my wife's property. 

Mr. Nellis. That is your wife's property? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did she get the money to buy it? 

Mr. Giesey. Unquestionably from myself or from what she would 
have herself. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you own any other property ? Real property ? 

Mr. Giesey. Any other real property that I own is what I gave you 
a record of yesterday. 

Mr. Nellis. You tell it, will you, please ? 



130 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. I own a lot on East One Hundred and Forty-second 
Street. 

Mr. Nellis. What is that worth? 

Mr. Giesey. That I got in 1937 or 1938. I think the lot is probably 
worth $200. 

Mr. Nellis. Any other real estate? 

Mr. Giesey. A piece of property on Sloane Avenue that I got in 
1921 that is probably worth $6,000. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you acquire that ? 

Mr. Giesey. 1921. 

Mr. Nellis. Any other real property ? 

Mr. Giesey. I jointly own a piece of property in Wickliffe, Ohio, 
that is used for a house trailer sales business that cost $3,000, and 
there is about a $1,500 mortgage on it. 

Mr. Nellis. When was that? 

Mr. Giesey. 1948. 

Mr. Nellis. And that is all the real property you own, is that 
right? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you own any automobile ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What make? 

Mr. Giesey. Cadillac. 

Mr. Nellis. What year? 

Mr. Giesey. 19 — my wife owns the Cadillac. I own a Mercury. 

Mr. Nellis. What year is the Cadillac? 

Mr. Giesey. 1951. 

Mr. Nellis. A brand new Cadillac? 

Mr. Giesey. We bought it used. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of car do you own? 

Mr. Giesey. A Mercury. 

Mr. Nellis. What year? 

Mr. Giesey. 1951. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you own a television set? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What size screen is it? 

Mr. McMahon. How is that pertinent? 

Mr. Giesey. It is a Dumont with a magnifier in front of it which is 
as good as any set you can get in the last couple of years. I have had 
it since 1948. It is a very good set. 

Mr. Nellis. You testified this morning about the stocks held by 
you in United Aircraft. 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And you corrected the record to what figure? 

Mr. Giesey. The United Aircraft — the Cleveland Press states 

Mr. Nellis. I don't mean that. You corrected the record; you 
said the accurate figure is 

Mr. McMahon. He corrected the Cleveland Press. The record 
stands as it is. 

Mr. Giesey. The record is correct. It is the Cleveland Press (hat 
is wrong. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the figure? 

Mr. Giesey. What figure are you getting at? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 131 

The Chairman. What is the value of the stock ? 

Mr. Gieset. The value of the stock is 6%. 

Mr. Nellis. No. The total value of the stock ; $30,000 ? 

Mr. Gieset. I would say approximately $30,000. If you had to 
sell all of that you would probably get 5y 2 for it. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, I want to get in the question which Mr. 
McMahon objected to. I would like to know from the witness about 
what he estimates his net worth to be at this time. 

Mr. Giesey. You have all my personal records. You can probably 
add it. 

The Chairman. Approximately what do you estimate your net 
worth to be ? 

Mr. McMahon. I object to the question. 

The Chairman. I don't think the witness objects to answering, 
approximately. 

Mr. McMahon. I would say this: From the stocks that he owns 
he would have to make a calculation of what they would be worth 
if he sold them today or the next day, or 

The Chairman. He can give us an idea, Mr. McMahon. 

Mr. McMahon. Can you give them an idea ? 

Mr. Gieset. I can give an approximate figure of 50 or 60 thousand 
dollars. 

Mr. Nellis. That is the approximate figure, is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. That is an approximate figure. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you accumulate that from your practice as an 
accountant? 

Mr. Gieset. No place else in the world where I have ever got it. 
I have never been in any gambling enterprise. I have never been in 
anything connected with slot machines. 

Mr. Nellis. You are sure about that, that you have never been 
in any gambling enterprise ? 

Mr. Gieset. The only rackets I have ever been in are the two World 
Wars, and the war criminals are working on me for a third. 

Mr. Nellis. Aren't you the secretary of the following corporations : 
Countrv Club Enterprise, which runs a gambling casino 

Mr. Gieset. I am not. 

Mr. Nellis. Let me finish. 

Mr. Gieset. I am not. 

Mr. Nellis. Kentucky Corp., Beverly Hills, Inc., which operates 
the night club entertainment, the dining room, the liquor business? 

Mr. Gieset. I am secretary of a restaurant operation known as 
Beverly Hills Country Club. 

Mr. Nellis. A restaurant operation? 

Mr. Gieset. A restaurant and restaurant only. 

Mr. Nellis. O. K. 

Are you secretary of another corporation entitled Boulevard Enter- 
prises, Inc., which holds real estate? 

Mr. Gieset. That is a real estate holding company. It is not a 
gambling business. I have no financial interest in that company. 

Mr. Nellis. But you are secretary to both corporations ? 

Mr. Gieset. I am secretary of both of those corporations. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you become secretary of both of those corpora- 
tions ? 



132 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gieset. That is an expeditious matter pertaining to signing 
tax returns and papers that come up from time to time in handling 
corporations. That is the only reason. 

Mr. Nellis. The boys had a good man around and they made you 
secretary, is that right ? 

Mr. Gieset. It is presumed they must have had some confidence 
in me to do it. 

Mr. Nellis. I should say. 

Let's go to Country Club Enterprise which is known as the Beverly 
Hills Country Club, is that right ? That is known as the Beverly Hills 
Country Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. As far as the newspapers ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. As far as you know, not what the newspapers know. 
Is it known as the Beverly Hills Country Club ? 

Mr. Gieset. To me it is the Country Club Enterprise. 

Mr. Nellis. You never heard of it as Beverly Hills, is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. The whole organization is known as Beverly Hills. 

Mr. Nellis. Beverly Hills Country Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. Beverly Hills Country Club. 

Mr. Nellis. Don't fence with me. 

Mr. Giesey. I'm not fencing with you, Mr. Nellis. If I talked to 
anybody, I wouldn't say Beverly Hills Country Club. We would 
say 

The Chairman. I think there is no doubt but what the Country Club 
Enterprise is Beverly Hills. 

Mr. Giesey. The Country Enterprise is a casino operation at Beverly 
Hills and nothing else. 

Mr. Nellis. Let me read you the names of the partners in this and 
you tell me if you know that the following people are the partners in 
that enterprise. 

Mr. McMahon. Are you asking for his specific knowledge or what 
he knows from the newspapers or any other common knowledge ? 

The Chairman. What we want to know is what he knows about it. 
He apparently is the secretary of the corporation. 

Mr. McMahon. I understand he is a secretary of a' corporation that 
holds part of the land. Now, are you talking about a gambling 
casino? 

The Chairman. Mr. McMahon, let's see if he knows who the part- 
ners are. 

Mr. Giesey. He is talking about partners. With a corporation you 
don't have partners. You have stockholders. 

The Chairman. Anyway, the managers, whatever you have. 

Mr. Giesey. O. K. You read the names. 

Mr. Nellis. Did your firm prepare returns for — I will be very spe- 
cific — Country Club Enterprise, Beverly Hills Country Club, either 
one of those, Alexandria Pipe, route 27, Newport, Ky. ? 

Mr. Giesey. We did. 

Mr. Nellis. From 1944 through 1949? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Are the following people partners in that enterprise: 
Samuel Tucker? 

Mr. Giesey. He is a partner in the Country Club Enterprise. 

Mr. Nellis. M. W. Dalitz? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133 

Mr. Giesey. He is a partner there from information furnished me 
by those people. I have no personal knowledge as to whether they 
are partners, but from the information furnished me I included that 
on the tax return as partners. 

Mr. Nellis. Louis Rothkopf? 

Mr. Giesey. He is another one with the same qualification. 

Mr. Nellis. Morris Kleinman? 

Mr. Giesey. Correct. 

Mr. Nellis. Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Thomas J. McGinty ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right, 

Mr. Nellis. John Croft? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Harry Potter? 

Mr. Giesey. Right. 

Mr. Nellis. Mitchell Myer ? 

Mr. Giesey. Right. 

Mr. Nellis. Samuel Schraecler? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Marion Brink ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Jimmy Brink ? Jimmy Brink also ? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; Marion Brink. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't Mr. Brink receive an income in 1946 which you 
reported for this enterprise ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. In 1916 ? No, sir. If the record shows it, he 
did. I don't recall ; maybe he did. 

Mr. Nellis. The record shows it. 

Mr. Giesey. If the record shows it, then I would say he did. 

Mr. Nellis. I will be glad to refresh your recollection. 

The Chairman. Let him see it. 

Mr. Giesey. If the record shows it 

Mr. McMahon. What is this we are referring to ? 

Mr. Nellis. Those are committee records. 

Mr. McMahon. Mr. Nellis, are these taken from income-tax re- 
turns ? 

Mr. Nellis. They are, indeed. I circled the name, Mr. Giesey. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I wouldn't say that Jimmy Brink received any- 
thing in 1946 from Beverly Hills. I don't think he did. 

Mr. Nellis. What about from Country Club Enterprise ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't think he did. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. Does that show he did ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. This does not show that he did. 

Mr. McMahon. His name appears on here, Mr. Giesey, Jimmy 
Brink. Is that whom we are discussing? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. McMahon. It shows Jimmy Brink and a figure. Now, do you 
have any recollection as to preparing 

Mr. Giesey. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You have no recollection? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. I don't think he did. 

The Chairman. Let's read the names again here. Let Mr. 

Mr. Giesey. I can expedite this. 



134 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Yes. Why don't you tell us who they are and the 
stockholders or the partners or the managers of this 

Mr. Geesey. We are talking about Country Club Enterprise. 

Mr. McMahon. This is from the information that has been fur- 
nished to you and recorded on specific income-tax returns filed with the 
Government ? 

Mr. Nellis. This is information officially on file with this com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Gieset. That is a schedule from 1944, '45, '46, '47, '48, and '49 
showing the gross receipts, net income, salaries, and expenses. 

Mr. Nellis. I don't want that. 

The Chairman. Just tell us from your own knowledge whatever 
you want 

Mr. McMahon. Your question is, Do you know who is interested 
in this enterprise from what appears on this, as far as it refreshes his 
recollection ? Is that the question ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

The Chairman. From his memory about it; and, if he has to re- 
fresh his recollection, all right. 

Mr. Geesey. It says here partners' shares of above income as profit. 
I don't know where that came from. Mr. Tucker was a partner in the 
Country Club Enterprise, to my knowledge, based on information 
furnished me. I have no personal knowledge of this other than what 
they have told me. 

Mr. Nellis. The same is true as to the others on the list ? 

Mr. Geeset. Dalitz, Rothkopf, Kleinman, Polizzi, McGinty, Croft, 
Potter, Myer, Schraeder, and Brink, but I don't think Jimmy Brink 
had anything to do with the Country Club Enterprise. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, all right. Now, you filed these returns from 
1944 through 1949 ; is that right ? 

Mr. Giesey. Our office filed them ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Giesey & Sauers. 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. I was in the Army part of that time. 

Mr. Nellis. What information did they supply you on which you 
reported for them gross receipts for the Beverly Hills Country Club 
in 1949 of $528,654? 

Mr. McMahon. Now, Senator, I would like, with your indulgence, 
to enter a specific objection on this, and I would like to tell you why 
I do this. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. McMahon. 

Mr. McMahon. I understand that in Senate Resolution 202 which 
formed your committee on or about June 17, 1950, Mr. Truman, as 
President of the United States, issued a proclamation, No. 10132, in 
which it was provided in essence that the various tax returns which 
might be filed by any person would be opened to the inspection of 
the committee. 

In accordance with a Treasury decision entered that date, and the 
Treasury decision said this, in effect : Any information thus obtained 
by the commititee or subcommittee shall be held confidential; pro- 
vided, however, that any portion or portions that are relevant or perti- 
nent to the purpose of the investigation may be submitted by the com- 
mittee to the United States Senate. 

Now, as I understand it, if we are going into specific questions con- 
cerning what are in various income-tax returns which were prepared 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 135 

by this man, then I ask that this room be cleared and that everything 
that is developed on that be held confidential with your committee and 
with the United States Senate. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. McMahon, we have all naturally studied the Treas- 
ury decisions very carefully. 

Mr. McMahon. I want my objection in there. 

Mr. Halley. The Treasury decision does not say it must be sub- 
mitted secretly. 

Mr. McMahon. It says "confidential"; and confidential, in the 
Army, has a very definite classification. 

Mr. Halley. Not to the United States Senate, and the Senate and 
Treasury are no part of the Army. 

Mr. McMahon. The Army is part of the Government that I am 
familiar with. 

Mr. Halley. You are getting far afield; you are not talking like a 
lawyer. Let's leave the Army out of it. 

Mr. McMahon. Let's talk about "confidential" ; what does it mean 
to you ? 

Mr. Halley. The decision says it shall be submitted to the Senate. 
This committee can submit it to the Senate in any form it so desires, 
publicly or privately, and in the course of so doing it is necessary to 
hold certain official hearings, and that is what the committee is doing. 

Mr. McMahon. Well, I am making this specific objection on the 
record, and to the Senator himself ; and I am relying on the Treasury 
decision, which says any information thus obtained through question- 
ing by this committee shall be held confidential. 

Now, we know what the meaning of the word "confidential" is. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. McMahon, any information we want to 
secure goes to the United States Senate. We are not making part of 
the record any income-tax returns. 

But this man prepared them. We want to ask him what he pre- 
pared, and if he wants to refresh his memory from 

Mr. McMahon. That is perfectly all right, but as to what is in the 
income-tax returns itself 

The Chairman. If he refreshes his memoiy by it, his testimony will 
be received. Of course, the information we have is in returns which 
he has filed with the committee himself, the copies, I believe. 

Mr. Nellis. That is right. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, it is assumed, then, that section 55 of the Internal 
Revenue Code that provides for penalties for disclosing information, 
that pertains to Federal employees and other persons, states : 

And it shall be unlawful for any person to print or publish in any manner 
whatever, not provided by law, any income return or any part or parts of income, 
profits, losses, or expenditures appearing in any income return, and any offense 
against the foregoing provisions shall be a misdemeanor and shall be punished 
by a fine not exceeding $1,000, by imprisonment not exceeding 1 year, or both, at 
the discretion of the court, and if the offender be an officer employed by the 
United States, he shall be dismissed — 

and so forth. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Giesey. Now, I am assuming — I have kept out of jail so far, but 
1 wouldn't want to get in jail by violating any provisions right now, 
unless I am assured of some immunity therefrom. 



136 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, of course, the other section of the statute 
provides nothing you have said here can be used in any case involving 
any matter directly relating to your testimony. That is a part of the 
statute. 

Mr. Gieset. But here it says, "shall be unlawful" for me to do this. 
I just want clarification. It doesn't mean anything to me. 

Mr. Halley. The statute says the President, by Executive order, 
may waive those penalty provisions in certain cases. We have here 
an Executive order, and pursuant to the Executive order the commit- 
tee is preparing material for its report to the Senate, and the committee 
has so ruled before. I believe the committee's ruling has been justified 
on a number of occasions. 

This has been our practice, after debate with counsel all over the 
country, that we have proceeded on this basis, because it is perfectly 
obvious that, in order to report these things to the Senate, the com- 
mittee must make a record and make its report to the Senate on the 
record. 

Mr. McMahon. I am agreeing with you, Mr. Halley. but what I am 
relying upon is the statute which says it must be confidential. How 
can it be confidential with all of these people in here ? 

Mr. Halley. The Senate sessions are not secret. The Congressional 
Record is a public document, and this is a part of the record that goes 
to the Senate. 

Mr. McMahon. Well, I enter my objection. Do what you like with 
it, Senator. 

The Chairman. Your objection is noted here. Let's proceed. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. Mr. Giesey, what information did these 
partners furnish you or supply you on which you reported gross re- 
ceipts of $528,654 in 1949 for this club? 

Mr. McMahon. Refer to the records if you don't know that. 

The Chairman. Did they give you books or 

Mr. Giesey. Don't tie me down to any specific figure. All I know 
is what you have on there. 

Mr. Nellis. Now what information did they give you ? 

Mr. Giesey. They furnished me information showing their daily 
receipts and their disbursements for all their expenses, which would be 
supported by vouchers, and those daily receipts were compiled on a 
yearly basis and included on their income-tax return. 

Mr. Nellis. And they gave the receipts from such games as bingo, 
money wheels, chuck, blackjack, crap, and so forth? 

Mr. Giesey. I think the detail of that shows on there. 

Mr. Nellis. They gave you that, didn't they ? 

Mr. Giesey. That was furnished me for the basis of their tax returns. 

Mr. Nellis. Slot machines ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think that may have shown on there if they had slot 
machines. 

Mr. Nellis. And what is this little item "Receipts, net, others" ? Do 
you remember that ? 

Mr. Giesey. May I see how much it is or what is the breakdown? 

You mean "Expenses, other" ? Well, if you got this from the income- 
tax return, Mr. Nellis, you will find every one of those items itemized 
on those income-tax returns. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I am asking you. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 137 

Mr. Glesey. I don't remember. The only classifications you have 
are "Payroll" and "Rent." Now they might have heat, light, power. 

Mr. Nellis. Allow me to come over here, Mr. Giesey. 

Mr. Giesey. Yes ; get on our side for a minute. 

Mr. Nellis. Here we have an item, "Receipts, net, tax and others." 

In 1946 it was $175,000 plus; in 1947, $149,000 plus; and in 1948, 
$244,000 plus. Do you recall the details of that? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't recall how the "others" got on there. I don't re- 
member that ; but, if it is, maybe it is some other game that they have 
been operating down there. I wouldn't have any personal knowledge 
of it. That is, the sheet shows the craps and others as income. 

Mr. McMahon. Do you have the income-tax returns here in files 
where we can refer to them and perhaps even answer your question? 

You have a sheet apparently compiled by this committee. 

Mr. Giesey. How did these people get together in this operation? 
Do you know ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I have no knowledge of that. 

Mr. Nellis. You are sure? 

Mr. Giesey. How they got together? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. In what operation ? Beverly Hills ? 

Mr. Nellis. In this Beverly Hills operation. 

Now, you know yourself 

Mr. McMahon. Let him answer the question. 

Mr. Nellis. Just a moment. You have testified that these men 
from Cleveland and this vicinity are in this club; isn't that right? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, how did they get together and get down to Bev- 
erly Hills? Do you know? 

Mr. Giesey. That I wouldn't have any personal knowledge of. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Samuel Schraeder? 

Mr. Giesey. He is a man from Cincinnati. 

Mr. Nellis. He has testified you know him. 

Mr. Giesey. I know Sam Schraeder. 

Mr. Nellis. You wrote him a letter in which you called him "Dear 
Sam." 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. You know him well? 

Mr. Giesey. I know him well enough to call him Sam. 

Mr. Nellis. You must know him pretty well. He calls you Al. 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. He is from Cincinnati. 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. How far is that from Newport? 

Mr. Giesey. Right across the river. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever attend a conference between Sam Schrae- 
der, Dalitz, Rothkopf, or Kleinman? 

Mr. Giesey. I probably did. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever attend a conference at which the affairs 
of this club were discussed? 

Mr. Giesey. If I ever attended any conferences on the affairs of 
this club, it pertained to the matters concerning their income tax. I 
certainly wouldn't have any conference with them pertaining to any 
operations of this business, because I know nothing about them. 



138 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Well, there must have been a conference at which you 
were elected secretary of the Boulevard Enterprises, Inc., and Coun- 
try Club Enterprises; is that right? They didn't just call you up 
and say, "You are the secretary"? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, at one of the meetings in Cincinnati they must 
have said, "To expedite this situation, you can be secretary of the 
corporation." 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of the Lookout Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is that? 

Mr. Halley. Pardon me, before you leave the Beverly Hills, may 
I ask a question? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever at the Beverly Hills Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes ; I have been. 

Mr. Halley. Where is it located? Right across the river from 
Cincinnati ? 

Mr. Giesey. It is located right across the river from Cincinnati, on 
Alexandria Pike, on top of the hill. 

Mr. Halley. Will you describe it? Does it stand in a building 
by itself? 

Mr. Giesey. There is one large 

Mr. McMahon. Does he have a definite recollection? I am sure 
it has been described before, has it not? 

Mr. Halley. I don't think so. Let him describe it. 

Mr. McMahon. All right. 

Mr. Giesey. What do you mean by "description"? It is a large 
building on top of a hill, that has a big night club and stage downstairs, 
and a bar, and they serve very good food and put on good shows. 

Mr. Halley. You are not through describing it ? 

Mr. Giesey. And then upstairs, in the same binding, is the casino, 
where they perform these other operations. 

Mr. Halley. I think we all know it is a gambling place. There is 
no point in being squeamish. 

Upstairs what do they have ? Is it a single, large room ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And what do they have ? Some dice tables ? 

Mr. Giesey. They have dice tables, and according to that, they 
must have a chuck-a-luck, roulette table 

Mr. Halley. Well, you have been in there, haven't you ? 

Mr. Giesey. I have been in it ; yes. 

Mr. McMahon. Are we referring to any particular time? Let's 
find out when he was in it. 

Mr. Halley. You ask your questions later ; I will ask mine now. 

Mr. McMahon. Will I have an opportunity to ask them later? 

Mr. Halley. Sure, you will. 

Mr. Giesey. They have a roulette table and crap tables; there is 
no secret about that. 

Mr. Halley. Do they have a horse board ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't think they do, no. I think they are only open 
at night ; I don't think they have horses. 

Mr. Halley. Now, you mentioned that you are secretary of the 
Country Club Enterprises. Does that run the restaurant phase? 

Mr. Giesey. I have never made such a statement, Mr. Halley. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 139 

Mr. Halley. I thought you said you were secretary of some cor- 
poration connected with it? 

Mr. Giesey. Some corporation, but it wasn't the Country Club 
Enterprises. 

Mr. Halley. Now, what corporation are you secretary of? 

Mr. Giesey. Beverly Hills, Inc. 

Mr. Halley. Beverly Hills, Inc. ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And what does that corporation hold ? 

Mr. Giesey. That corporation operates the restaurant, and the 
restaurant and bar only. 

Mr. Halley. And are there any other corporations connected with 
the entire enterprise? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. There is an organization called Boule- 
vard Enterprises, that owns the land. 

Mr. Halley. And are you connected with that? 

Mr. Giesey. I am secretary of that. 

Mr. Halley. Now, I presume that the entire enterprise pays rent 
to the part that owns the land; is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right; yes. 

Mr. Halley. And the restaurant operates, then, in a separate cor- 
poration, of which you are secretary? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Now, how is the gambling part set up ? 

Mr. Giesey. The gambling part is set up as an entirely separate 
business ; they have their own separate books and records. 

Mr. Halley. Is that a corporation ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. A partnership? 

Mr. Giesey. It is a partnership, and I have already told you who 
the partners were. 

Mr. Halley. Then they are partners, and not stockholders in a 
corporation ? 

Mr. Giesey. They are partners, and the tax return that was filed 
shows it was a partnership. 

Mr. Halley. Now, does the gambling partnership pay rent to the 
real estate corporation? 

Mr. Giesey. I presume — yes, that is right. 

Mr. Halley. And it is operated entirely separately and apart from 
the restaurant? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. There are three separate operations. 

Mr. Halley. When was this Beverly Hills Club opened ? 

Mr. Giesey. I would say it was probably 1941. 

Mr. Halley. And when did you first represent it or 

Mr. Giesey. In 1941. 

Mr. Halley. Were the partners in the gambling enterprise in 1941 
the same as they are today ? 

Mr. McMahon. If you recall, would the income-tax returns show ? 

The Chairman. Well, let him answer. Let him state if he knows. 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't know for sure. 

Mr. Halley. What is your best recollection? Have there been 
changes in the partners? 

68958— 51— pt. 6 10 



140 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. May I see that list, to see if there are any names, in 
there in the beginning? 

I'd say the only change that I can recall in there would be in con- 
nection with Jimmy and Marion Brink. 

Mr. Halley. And what is that ? 

Mr. Giesey. Jimmy Brink was originally in there, I think, from 
1942 or 1043, and some place around '44 or '45, his interest was trans- 
ferred to M. B. Brink. 

Mr. Halley. Who originally asked you to serve as accountant for 
this enterprise? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I would assume that it is Kleinman, Dalitz, or 
Tucker. 

Mr. Halley. And were you present at the organization meetings at 
which the club was set up ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't recall being there in the beginning. I was prob- 
ably there after they had all got together on what they wanted to do. 

Mr. Halley. Where were the meetings held ? Here in Cleveland ? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; it was held down in Beverly Hills. 

Mr. Halley. In Kentucky? 

Mr. Giesey. In Kentucky ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And where were you first approached about it? 

Mr. Giesey. I was probably asked to come down there and talk 
about it. 

Mr. Halley. Who suggested having a separate real-estate corpora- 
tion and a separate restaurant corporation ? 

Mr. Giesey. They had an attorney at that time who handled those 
affairs. He formed the corporations and he handled it. 

Mr. Halley. What was his name ? 

Mr. Giesey. It seems to me it was a man by the name of Lester. 

Mr. Halley. Lester? 

Mr. Giesey. Lester. 

Mr. Halley. What is his full name ? 

Mr. Giesey. I'm thinking of Gary Lester. But I don't think it is 
Gary Lester. I can't recall his first name. 

Mr. Halley. Now, the gambling operation in Kentucky is strictly 
illegal, isn't it? 

Mr. McMahon. You are asking for his interpretation ? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't know anything about the Kentucky laws, 
but I would assume from what I read in the newspapers it is very 
illegal. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any discussion of how they would operate 
illegally ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; I had nothing whatsoever to clo with that 
operation. 

Mr. Halley. You have said, I think, that the night club and restau- 
rant part of that operation is a very beautiful and elaborate set-up ; 
am I correct ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think it is advertised as the show place of the Middle 
West, and I think it is. 

Mr. Halley. And it must have cost a lot of money to put togother. 

Mr. Giesey. No. Well, it all depends on what you call a lot of 
money. 

Mr. Halley. What is the physical investment or the physical assets 
of Beverly Hills? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 141 

Mr. Giesey. Well, if I tax my memory right, I think they paid orig- 
inally $125,000 for that property from Pete or Agnes Schmidt. 

Mr. Halley. Was the restaurant building there ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is for the whole thing. That included all of the 
land and it included a residence that is separate from this property. 

Mr. Halley. Did they decorate it and renovate it for certain addi- 
tional sums? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, they probably made additions from time to time. 

Mr. Halley. Well, they had to recorate their dining room. 

Mr. Giesey. No, it was already decorated; it was already built. 

Mr. Halley. You mean there was already a restaurant there? 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, yes. That was already in operation when they 
went and took it over. 

Mr. Halley. Before they invested $125,000 was some check made to 
see if they would be permitted to operate illegally? 

Mr. Giesey. That I wouldn't have any knowledge but I would 
assume before they would lay out that kind of money, they would 
have some ideas on that. 

Mr. Halley. In all of your discussions with these people did you 
ever find out what their ideas were ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How they could operate? 

Mr. Giesey. That isn't anything that would concern me whatsoever. 
That would be a matter amongst themselves. I w r as engaged for one 
purpose, to take and prepare their income-tax returns set up such 
records as would be necessary in connection with that. That is all I 
did, nothing more. 

Mr. Halley. Were you at all concerned about the possibility that 
you might be found to be aiding and abetting an illegal enterprise ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. I wasn't engaged in the gambling end or 
operating a restaurant. 

Mr. Halley. You were doing the accounting for the gambling end? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You certainly would be aiding and abetting it. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, that's a legal question that I admit I hadn't 
thought of. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't it ever occur to you that you were to check 
on whether or not you w r ere apt to be prosecuted by the State of Ken- 
tucky ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I never checked on it. 

Mr. Halley. You mean to say that, all of your years of experi- 
ence in the Bureau of Internal Revenue, you didn't even think for a 
moment about whether or not you were apt to be prosecuted for your 
participation in this enterprise? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I tell you, Mr. Halley, if I thought about it, the 
only crime that I was performing, as far as this operation is concerned, 
would be making out an income-tax return. If I was going to be 
prosecuted for that, the mere fact that a man is in an illegal business 
and I make out his income-tax return, I don't think I can be prose- 
cuted for that illegal business. It is too fundamental. I am not a 
lawyer, but I would assume that is fundamental enough. I wouldn't 
even have to think twice about that. 

Mr. Halley. What did you do to help them make out their income- 
tax returns ? 



142 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. They furnished me the sheets showing what their in- 
come and expenses were. 

Mr. Halley. Did they furnish you sheets daily or weekly or annu- 
ally? 

Mr. Geisey. They compiled them by the month, and they may send 
them in every 3 months or 4 months, or they may send them in at the 
end of the year. 

Mr. Halley. On the basis of these sheets you would 

Mr. Giesey. Compile 

Mr. Halley. Make an annual balance sheet ? 

Mr. Giesey. Compile a summary of all of their operations and all 
of those summaries and sheets, and so forth. I referred to the Inter- 
nal Revenue Bureau for checking their income-tax returns, and I 
checked them, as I said, through the year 1948. 

Mr. Halley. Is the Beverly Hills Club still operating? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. When did you get the last sheet in ? 

Mr. Giesey. We haven't had any sheets from them for 3 or 4 
months. 

Mr. Halley. Did you bring any sheets with you ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. For the club ? 

Mr. Giesey. I didn't have any. 

Mr. Halley. What did you do with the sheets ? 

Mr. Giesey. They all go back to the people involved. We don't 
keep them in our office. 

Mr. Halley. Have you filed the final income-tax return for the 
Beverly Hills Club for the year 1950? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; we have not. 

Mr. Halley. And you returned these sheets even before you filed 
the income-tax return ? 

Mr. Giesey. The income-tax return is due in March. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. And if we have the sheets in March, we will file it; if 
we don't, we won't file it. 

Mr. Halley. You say you get them every 3 or 4 months. You must 
have some sheets you received for 1950. 

Mr. Giesey. We don't have any. They were given back to the 
partners. 

Mr. Halley. I thought the only purpose in getting them was to 
help you file an income-tax return. Why do you return these sheets 
before you make out the return? It doesn't make any sense, does it? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, what you are trying to get at, they wanted those 
sheets back and we gave them back to them. 

Mr. Halley. When did they want them back ? 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, a matter of 3 or 4 months ago. 

Mr. Halley. Who asked you for the sheets ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think it was Mr. Rothkopf. 

Mr. Halley. Who did you give them to ? 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Rothkopf. 

Mr. Halley. How many sheets did you have at that time in your 
possession ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 143 

Mr. Giesey. We probably had them down to September or October. 

Mr. Halley. Of 1950? 

Mr. Giesey. 1950. 

Mr. Halley. How many sheets did you have for the years prior to 
1950? 

Mr. Giesey. None. We give those back when the Government gets 
through checking them or when the Government wants to check them. 
If they have them, we get them from them and turn them over to the 
Government and then they go back to them. 

Mr. Halley. You say they have only been audited through 1948. 
Where are the sheets for 1949 ? 

Mr. Giesey. I presume Mr. Rothkopf has them. 

Mr. Halley. You must know. Did he ask for them, too? 

Mr. Giesey. Did who? 

Mr. Halley. Rothkopf. 

Mr. Giesey. I gave him everything I had. Now, as far as 1949 is 
concerned, I think the Government probably has those right now, 
checking their 1949 returns. 

Mr. Halley. Are you sure of that ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think that is a fact now that you mention it. 

Mr. Halley. Who has them? Who did you turn them over to and 
when ? 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Potter. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't it unusual for the people operating these games 
to want their sheets back in the middle of the year before you filed the 
return ? 

Mr. Giesey. I would say it would be unusual ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Was it due to the fact that they heard they would be 
subpenaed ? 

Mr. Giesey. You are 100 percent right. I would say that's why 
they want them back. They wanted them in their possession and not 
mine. 

Mr. Halley. What do the sheets show, the summary sheets ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, Mr. Nellis just gave me a pretty good idea of what 
is on each one of those sheets. He has the breakdown of it. 

Mr. Halley. Well, just describe the sheet. Is it a single sheet of 
paper. 

Mr. Giesey. It is a single sheet of paper. 

Mr. Halley. And it would have what ? Gross income from a num- 
ber of different 

Mr. Giesey. That is right, gross income from the number ; then they 
list the expenses. 

Mr. Haoley. Would they list them in anv greater detail than "Pay- 
roll," "Rent," "Other"? 

Mr. Giesey. They would list each item exactly what it was for. 

Mr. Halley. On gross receipts, would you have any way of check- 
ing the accuracy of the figures you got? 

Mr. Giesey. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go down there as an accountant and try 
to make a test check of any of these sheets ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; we did not. 

Mr. Halley. It is a cash business ; isn't it ? 

Mr. Giesey. It is a cash business ; that is right, 

Mr. Halley. Somebody has got to count that cash ? 



144 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. They have their own partners there to count that cash. 

Mr. Halley. And you, as the accountant, filed the returns and 
haven't the faintest idea of whether you were getting a straight count 
or a bad count? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. That is true of anybody. When we 
file an income-tax return, we take their word from the figures they 
give us. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have any system so that there would be any 
way of checking whether they gave you the right figures? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was there a daily report kept? 

Mr. Giesey. There is a daily report kept. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see the daily report ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, that's what they send, the daily reports and they 
compile them. 

Mr. Halley. I thought you said they send you a report every 3 or 4 
months. 

Mr. Giesey. But it is made up of each daily report. 

Mr. Halley. Did they send you the daily report ? 

Mr. Giesey. Not each day. 

Mr. Halley. They just sent you their edition of daily reports? 

Mr. Giesey. What we would get would be a little book with 30 
sheets in it for a month or 31, whichever the number of days. 

Mr. Halley. That is the point. Then you would get these daily 
reports ? 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you would add them? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go back there to the club and try to see 
the system they had set up to make sure the daily report was an 
honest one? 

Mr. Giesey. The sheet that they sent in was their regular — their 
receipts and disbursements for that day. That is their original 
record. 

Mr. Halley. Who would check their receipts for that day ? How 
would that be done? 

Mr. Giesey. I imagine that's a matter between the partners to see 
that they get a fair count. That isn't anything that I would have 
any knowledge of. 

Mr. Halley. In other words, you would have no way of knowing 
whether these partners, in counting out the money, would count $1 
for themselves and one for Uncle Sam? 

Mr. Giesey. That, I wouldn't have any knowledge of. 

Mr. Halley. You would have no way of controlling it? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; I would not, and I don't think anybody else 
would. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Giesey, you have heard of the Lookout Club? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. It is located at 1741 Dixie Highway ? 

Mr. Giesey. It is located on the Dixie Highway ; I don't know the 
number. 

Mr. Nellis. Covington, Ky.? 

Mr. Giesey. It is out of Covington. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 145 

Mr. Nellis. Out of Covington. 

Mr. Giesey. That is the place. 

Mr. Nellis. Lookout Club operates the Gambling Casino ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. A pretty plush place? 

Mr. Giesey. It is a beautiful spot. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you been there? 

Mr. Giesey. I have been there. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you describe it a little bit inside? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, if I had Mr. Lausche's diagram, I could give 
you a pretty accurate description of it. 

Mr. Nellis. Just from your memory, what did it have ? Dice tables, 
craps, roulette ? 

Mr. Giesey. They had slot machines ; we don't want to forget them. 
They had slot machines and crap tables. I don't know whether they 
had roulette or not. I think — I don't recall ever seeing a roulette table 
down there. I wouldn't have any occasion to go amongst those. When 
I would go back to where the office would be, where I would transact 
my business, we would go through a row of slot machines, and I can see 
on one side there are the crap tables. 

Mr. Nellis. You had the same situation here that you had in the 
other club, in that Lookout House, Inc., operated night-club enter- 
tainment, dining room, and liquor business; isn't that right? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. And it is a Kentucky corporation ? 

Mr. McMahon. Do you know ? 

Mr. Nellis. It is ; isn't it, a Kentucky corporation ? 

Mr. Giesey. That I don't know. That was incorporated when I was 
in the Army. I don't know where they incorporated. I think it is a 
Kentucky corporation ; that's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Jimmy Brink, Inc., is a Nevada corporation ; right ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. It holds the real estate on which this club is located ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right, 

Mr. Nellis. Right. You have the same set-up here that you have 
in the Beverly Hills Country Club ; right ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. You are secretary of Jimmy Brink, Inc., and Lookout 
House, Inc. ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right; since 1945 or 1946 I have been secretary. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you draw any income as secretary of these corpora- 
tions ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. It is just a managerial function ; right? 

Mr. Giesey. It is not a managerial function ; it is just a title that I 
hold for signing papers. 

Mr. Nellis. I am interested in this Nevada matter. How did you 
get out to Nevada to form that? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, when the corporation was formed, they had an 
attorney from Chicago — I can't recall his name — that was his doing. 

Mr. Nellis. He came here ? 

Mr. Giesey. He came from Chicago. 

Mr. Nellis. At a meeting ? 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Brink knew the attorney. 



146 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. You were present at the meeting. 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I wasn't present at the first meeting. I may have 
been at a subsequent meeting. 

Mr. Nellis. He was present at the subsequent meeting as well ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right, and he 

Mr. Nellis. You heard the discussion concerning how this was to 
be set up? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have any opinion on it at that time? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes ; I thought it was a good idea. 

Mr. Nellis. Why? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, for tax purposes if you get two corporations there, 
you are in a better position than having one corporation. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't it your idea that it would be a nice thing to 
have the real estate held by a different company and then, in turn, 
have another company hold the gambling casino so as to get as far 
away from the real estate as possible ? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I don't think that was. It was purely a tax angle. 

Mr. Nellis. Purely a tax angle? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were the partners in this club? 

Mr. Giesey. Do you have a sheet similar to the other one ? I can 
help you out. 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking you. Do you remember ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Offhand? 

Mr. Giesey. No; I can't state from memory on a thing like that. 

Mr. Nellis. It was the same boys? Weren't the same boys in this? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I didn't think they were. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't Morris Kleinman in it? 

Mr. Giesey. Morris Kleinman ; I was given information to the effect 
that Morris Kleinman was a partner. 

Mr. Nellis. You know he was, don't you ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, to say 

Mr. Nellis. Sure, you do. 

Mr. Giesey. To say that I knew that he was, I filed on his income- 
tax return that he gets income from there? 

Mr. Nellis. Louis Rothkopf? 

Mr. Giesey. Louis Rothkopf was a partner. 

Mr. Nellis. M. B. Dalitz? 

Mr. Giesey. M. B. Dalitz. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he ever use the name Davis in connection with this 
return, do you remember? 

Mr. Giesey. No, no sir ; not from my knowledge. 

Mr. Nellis. Samuel Schraeder? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. John Croft? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Samuel Miller? 

Mr. Giesey. Samuel Miller was before the war. Sam — Sam Miller 
was a partner at one time. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't he known as "Game Boy" ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is "Game Boy" Miller. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 147 

Mr. Nellis. You call him "Game Boy" when you see him ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. I call him Sam. 

Mr. Nellis. What does it mean ? Have you any idea ? 

Mr. Giesey. I have no idea of the word. 

Mr. Nellis. I have wondered about that. 

Mr. Giesey. Other than what I have read in the newspapers. I 
guess he is a pretty spunky little kid. 

Mr. McMahon. Mr. Sutton ought to be able to tell you. 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking Mr. Giesey. 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I don't know. I don't think 

Mr. Nellis. Is he related to Mushy Wexler? 

Mr. Giesey. I would have no knowledge of that. 

Mr. Nellis. You never heard that he was a brother-in-law of Mushy 
Wexler? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; I do not. 

Mr. Nellis. You know Bessie Miller at the Theatrical Grill ? 

Mr. Giesey. I know w T ho Bessie Miller is. She collects your money 
when you pay your check at the Theatrical Grill. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know that Mushy owns the Theatrical Grill ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You had heard that? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And you thought about Bessie Miller being Sam "Game 
Boy" Miller's sister; right? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; she is Sam Miller's sister, but I don't know what 
relation she is to Mushy Wexler. 

Mr. Nellis. Charles Polizzi, when did he become a partner in this 
enterprise? 

Mr. Giesey. He was a partner from the beginning. 

Mr. Nellis. Did I ask you about Samuel Schraeder ? I think I did. 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. James Brink? 

Mr. Giesey. James Brink was a partner originally and he made a 
shift with M. B. Brink later on. I don't remember when it took place. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is M. B. Brink? 

Mr. Giesey. Marion Brink, his wife. 

Mr. Nellis. He was a partner in 1944 ; that is certain ? 

Mr. Giesey. It seems to me this took place in about 1945. 

Mr. Nellis. And in 1945, 1946, 1947, and 1948 it was his wife who 
drew the income from this partnership ; is that right ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was Charles V. Carr? 

Mr. Giesey. That I wouldn't know. He is somebody associated 
with Jimmy Brink ; I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever met him ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. I think he is dead now. 

Mr. Nellis. You have never seen him ? 

Mr. Giesey. Never saw him. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Mitchell Myer ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is one of the names I think that we read on the 
Beverly. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he ? Do you know him ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is one of the partners down there. 

Mr. Nellis. You have met him, haven't you ? 



148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, yes ; I know Mitchell Myer. 

Mr. Nellis. Where does he live ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think he lives in Cincinnati. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is a partner, to my knowledge, as far as my knowl- 
edge of who the partners are, which I won't qualify every time, but I 
think we can assume that, in Beverly Hills. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Louise K. Tucker? 

Mr. Giesey. That is Sam Tucker's wife. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know whether Sam Tucker had anything to 
do with this club ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; a partner in the Lookout Club is Louise 
Tucker. 

Mr. Nellis. Louise K. Tucker? 

Mr. Giesey. Louise K. Tucker. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever attend a meeting at which it was dis- 
cussed whether Sam Tucker should go into it or his wife should go 
into it? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; except that that question came up when they got 
into the Lookout House. They decided to put Mrs. Tucker in there 
for income-tax purposes ; no question about it. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know whether Sam Tucker was drawing any 
income from any other enterprise that would cause him to desire this 
situation or this set-up for income-tax purposes ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. If I had Mr. Tucker's income-tax return, I could 
tell you what his income was, because I filed Mr. Tucker's income-tax 
return and I showed all his income on there. 

The Chairman. Are those all the Tuckers in the Lookout Club that 
you remember? 

Mr. Giesey. That's all that I recall, Senator. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is John Croft? Did I ask you about him? 

Mr. McMahon. I think you did. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he ; do you kjiow him ? 

Mr. Geisey. John Croft is a partner in Beverly Hills. I don't re- 
call for sure whether he is a partner in the Lookout or not. Is he on 
that list? 

Mr. Nellis. He is listed ; yes. 

Mr. Giesey. Then he is a partner. 

Mr. Nellis. He draws income from it ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is a partner in the Lookout. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is Mr. Croft? 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Croft lives in Cincinnati ; where he is now I don't 
know. 

Mr. Nellis. When was the last time you saw him ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't think I have seen Croft for 6 months. 

Mr. Nellis. He hasn't communicated with you in any way? 

Mr. Giesey. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know where Mr. Brink is, James Brink? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I do not. 

The Chairman. Let me see if I understand this. In this case you 
have one corporation that owns the ground; that is Jimmy Brink, 
Inc.? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149 

The Chairman. Another one that operates the restaurant, et cetera, 
Lookout House, Inc.? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And the people that own these corporations are 
then the partners in the gambling operation? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

The Chairman. That is the general pattern? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

The Chairman. I suppose one consideration would be if there 
were any attachments, or something, it would be a separate corpora- 
tion to prevent the land from being seized or taken over, or something 
of that sort? 

Mr. Giesey. I assume that the legal counsel took that into consider- 
ation when they set it up that way. 

The Chairman. I did want to ask, How do you get paid for your 
work ? Are you paid by the year or 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; we get paid each month. 

The Chairman. Each month? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

The Chairman. Are you paid by each one of the things separately 
or do they pay you 

Mr. Giesey. No ; each one pays their own bill. 

The Chairman. You mean you get three payments, one from the 
partners, one from the landholding company, and the other from the 
operating company? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, the land company we get paid once a year but 
from the restaurant we get paid once a month and from the club once 
a month. 

The Chairman. The same fellow handles all three of them? 

Mr. Giesey. No, no, very definitely not, Senator. The casino op- 
erations are operated by entirely different people from the restaurant. 
They have separate managers, people that are experienced in the 
restaurant business. 

The Chairman. What I mean, the ownership is the same all the 
way through. 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, yes; the stock ownership is the same, yes sir. 

The Chairman. Would you eive us some idea about this? Is it a 
lucrative business for you? Does it pay you substantially or 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I think I put in the record here Mr. Neilis, if he 
has the Giesey & Sauers partnership return, I think we had an income 
of $79,000 in 1949, of which I would say $5,000 of it may have come 
from those two clubs. 

The Chairman. So Lookout House, the Lookout outfit you think 
would pay you $3,000 a year all together ? Something like that ? 

Mr. Geisey. The two of them together would probably be five or six 
thousand dollars. 

The Chairman. Do you get any commission ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. That would be an ideal set up. 

Mr. Halley. Do you get fees from the individual partners? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or any of them at all ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; we do not. 

Mr. Halley. You don't get any fee at all from Kleinman for mak- 
ing his income-tax return? 



150 • ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; that is included with the fees from them. 

The Chairman. It is 11 : 15. Suppose we take a 5-minute break and 
we will resume sharply in 5 minutes. 

(Recess had.) 

The Chairman. All right. The committee will come to order. 

Let's see if we can get along a great deal faster than we are. We 
are taking too much time. 

Mr. Counsel and Mr. Witness, let's try to get down to the essential 
facts that we have. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Giesey, did you file returns for Chesapeake Cater- 
ing Co. ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What was that ? 

Mr. Giesey. Chesapeake Catering Co. is an operation in Chesa- 
peake, Ohio. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of an operation ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I think it was a gambling club. 

Mr. Nellis. Like this ? 

Mr. Giesey. Same as the other one, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And the set-up was the same, you had a holding com- 
pany holding the real estate ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. They rented — they had a little building down 
there. No; there is no comparison with their set-ups. This opera- 
tion they had was in the building separately, all by itself. 

Mr. Nellis. And there was the Colony Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't know whether that name Colony Club — I never 
had any knowledge of any Colony Club until I read about it in the 
newspapers. 

Mr. Nellis. Was it the Continental Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. I don't know. It might be the Colony Club. 
From the newspapers — what the newspapers refer to as the Colony 
Club could be the same as this. 

Mr. Nellis. And there was the Schwartz Bros. Don't they own 
that place? 

Mr. Giesey. Bill Schwartz is the only one I know of. 

Mr. Nellis. William Schwartz? 

Mr. Giesey. William Schwartz. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were the partners in that ? 

Mr. Giesey. If you have a list like you had before, I could 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking for your recollection. Who were the 
partners ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I would say it was William Schwartz, a man 
by the name of Votee, I think, and Sam Schraeder, Sam Tucker, and 
the group from Beverly Hills. 

Mr. Nellis. You mean Dalitz, Kleinman, Rothkopf, and so forth ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's- right. That is my recollection of it, 

Mr. Nellis. Dalitz, Rothkopf, and Kleinman, surely ; is that right ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't know for sure whether Dalitz was in it, but 
I think Kleinman and Rothkopf were unquestionably in it. I am not 
sure about Dalitz. 

Mr, Nellis. Was J. C. Lenz in it ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't recognize that name ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 151 

Mr. Nellis. In preparing returns for Dalitz, Tucker, Rothkopf, 
Kleinman, and Haas — did you prepare any returns for Haas? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you observe any income accruing to them from 
Detroit Steel Corp. ? 

Mr. Giesey. I surely did. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you tell us about that ? 

Mr Giesey. They acquired — they owned — when I got out of the 
Army they owned 10,000 shares of stock of the Detroit Steel Corp., 
of which Mr. Haas owned one-third, and Mr. Kleinman, Rothkopf, 
Dalitz, and Tucker owned the other two-thirds. 

The Chairman. What are the names again? Haas one-third ■ 

Mr. Giesey. Haas owned — of the original 10,000 shares, Haas owned 
one-third, and the other four names owned the other two-thirds. 

The Chairman. What were the other four ? 

Mr. Giesey. Dalitz, Rothkopf, Tucker, and Kleinman. They 
reported on their income-tax return of dividends paid by the Detroit 
Steel Corp. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever discuss with them how they got into this 
business ? 

Mr. Giesey. How they got into the steel business ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. That was done while I was in the Army. 

Mr. Nellis. They never reported to you or your firm or anyone in 
your firm how they got into that business ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. We don't have any occasion. All we are inter- 
ested in is the income that they get from the dividends, and they told 
us they had the dividend, they received them, and we included them 
on the return. 

Mr. Nellis. You recall your testimony that your wife, I believe 
you said, bought 100 shares on four different occasions ; is that right ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Of the same corporation? 

Mr. Giesey. Of Detroit Steel. It is a New York listed stock. 

Mr. Nellis. How did she happen to buy that? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, it was paying a dividend of $2.50 a year and 
selling for around $22 or $23. 1 thought that would be a pretty good 
return. 

It had no connection whatsoever with this transaction at all, Mr. 
Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. These persons we have been talking about didn't advise 
you to buy stock in that corporation? 

Mr. Giesey. They certainly never did ; no, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know about a personal loan made by Max Zivian 
to Moe Dalitz? 

Mr. Giesey. I have no knowledge of that. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever meet Max Zivian ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think I met Max Zivian ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he, sir? 

Mr. Giesey. He is president of the Detroit Steel Corp. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to introduce 
into the record a chart which explains the operations of the Detroit 
Steel Corp. and the means by which the group concerning whom the 
present witness has testified got into that corporation. 



152 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Chairman, prior to July 1944 there were two companies, the 
Reliance Steel Corp. organized in 1932, capitalized in 1943, et cetera. 
These persons were the officers of that corporation. 

The Detroit Steel Corp. 

The Chairman. I think that we will defer putting the chart in the 
record until the matter is developed further. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. 

Mr. Giesey. You asked me about Detroit Steel Corp. stock. You 
are talking about a corporation there that I think in all fairness to 
the Detroit Steel Corp. — it doesn't mean anything to me, maybe it 
will decrease my stock if this comes out in big headlines, so I may have 
some interest in it — but I think they have two or three million shares 
outstanding, and you are talking about a little 10,000 shares of stock. 

Mr. Nellis. I am talking about 

The Chairman. Well, I think that for the present time until the 
matter is developed further, why, the chart will not be put in the 
record. 

The question has been about how much stock these men owned in 
the Detroit Steel Corp., and you can testify what you know about it. 

Mr. Giesey. I have already, Senator. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, Mr. Giesey, have you ever been at the Desert Inn 
in Nevada? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. I had occasion to go to California on another 
business matter in April of last year, and on my way back I stopped 
there before the place opened out of curiosity, and I stayed for the 
opening. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever prepare any tax returns for the Desert 
Inn? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear that Kleinman, Dalitz & Rothkopf 
are in that operation? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. I read about it in the newspapers. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Wilbur Clark? 

Mr. Giesey. I have never met Wilbur Clark. I know him by 
sight, but I have never met Wilbur Clark. 

The Chairman. Do you know that Kleinman, et al. are in that 
operation? You handled their finances. 

Mr. Giesey. I have nothing whatsoever to do with the Desert Inn. 

The Chairman. I know, but you have something to do with their 
business. 

Mr. Giesey. With Kleinman's? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. Yes; I do. 

The Chairman. I suppose your records should show that he is in 
it or not. 

Mr. Giesey. I have no records at this time showing that he is. This 
is a 1950 transaction, and I won't know anything about that until we 
present the 1950 returns. 

Mr. Nellis. And he has given you no information concerning any 
income about that operation? 

Mr. Giesey. No. That is a corporation, and I don't think they 
got any income from it. 

Mr. Halley. How did you work out that 1950 estimate that had 
to be filed? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153 

Mr. Giesey. His 1950 estimate has not been filed. 

Mr. Halley. Do these follows succeed in getting extensions so they 
don't have to file 

Mr. Giesey. They can't get an extension on estimates. It should 
have been filed on January 15, and they did not file it. 

Mr. Halley. You mean they are in default? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. They prefer to be in default rather than reveal nec- 
essary figures before the committee hearing? 

Mr. McMahon. I object to that. 

Mr. Giesey. I don't know what they prefer. 

Mr. McMahon. He told you they are in default. 

Mr. Halley. He gave his conclusion as to why they took the records 
back from him so they couldn't be presented before this committee, 
and I would like his conclusion now as to this. If he doesn't want to 
give it, he doesn't have to, but he has been very frank up to this 
time. 

The Chairman. Mr. McMahon, he has handled their records and 
I suppose he would know why they didn't file. 

Mr. Giesey. They are not here to sign. 

Mr. McMahon. He wouldn't know why they didn't prefer to file 
an estimate. 

Mr. Giesey. They weren't here to sign them, so they were not 
filed. 

Mr. Halley. Excuse me, Mr. Nellis. Go ahead. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Wilbur Clark ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. I would know him by sight, but I never met 
him. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you recall the books which you turned over to this 
committee ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

I loaned them $7,500 at 4i/ 2 percent interest on a 6-month loan, and 
I received it back with my interest. 

Mr. Nellis. Was this a personal loan ? 

Mr. Giesey. That was a personal loan. 

Mr. Nellis. To whom? To Wilbur Clark? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes — no, that was a personal loan to the corporation. 

Mr. Nellis. To the Desert Inn ? 

Mr. Giesey. To the Wilbur Clark Desert Inn, Inc. 

Mr. Nellis. Then about 5 months later the books show a repayment. 
• Mr. Giesey. I got it back again. They were refinancing, they told 
me; as soon as they could get the refinancing completed they would 
pay the loan back. 

Mr. Nellis. Two days after that on April 11, 1950, you have a 
$7,500 item deposited in the following notation: "Sam. H. XCH"? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. I didn't know I was going to get that 
$7,500 back, so I borrowed $7,500 from Sam Haas. That is purely a 
loan. 

Mr. Nellis. You borrowed $7,500 from Sam Haas? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nelis. Within 2 days after repayment of the Desert Inn loan ? 

Mr. Giesey. It has no connection whatsoever between the Desert 
Inn loan and that. 



154 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. You testified you filed returns for the Pettibone Club ; 
is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were the partners in that, Mr. Giesey? 

The Chairman. Where is the Pettibone Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. The Pettibone Club is a notorious organization in 
Geauga County, Senator. 

The Chairman. Ohio ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were the partners in that operation ? 

Mr. Giesey. Morris Kleinman, Lou Kothkopf. 

The Chairman. A little slower. 

Mr. Giesey. Pardon me. 

The Chairman. Kleinman, Rothkopf . 

Mr. Giesey. Georgie Gordon. 

The Chairman. Who ? 

Mr. Giesey. George Gordon, Ruby Kolod, and Alfred Goltsman. 

The Chairman. Has that got the same set-up, three different opera- 
tions ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. That is just a large building out here that — 
well, they have a restaurant in it and they have a separate room where 
they have gambling, but there is no separate organizations as there 
is in the other. That is all a partnership. 

Mr. Halley. Where is the Pettibone Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. It is in Geauga County. It is off Route — I can get out 
there, but I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You have been there? 

Mr. Giesey. I have been in the place ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you also filed returns for that club ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. That is also strictly illegal, I presume? 

Mr. Giesey. It is a gambling operation. 

Mr. Nellis. And the same goes for the Mounds Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. I have nothing whatsoever to do with the Mounds Club, 
never did have. 

Mr. Nellis. You never filed any returns for that? 

Mr. Giesey. Never did ; no, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the Union Enterprise Co. ? 

Mr. Giesey. The Union Enterprise was the new partnership that 
took over the operation in Chesapeake; when Schwartz and Patton 
got out of it, this other group went in. 

Mr. Nellis. The other group you have mentioned ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. They took over from Schwartz and Patton? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. Patton and Schwartz got out and the 
others went in. 

The Chairman. Who took over? 

Mr. Giesey. You already have that, Senator. It is in the record as 
to who — that is Votee, Tucker, Schwartz, and the rest of them. It is 
as the record already clearly shows. 

Mr. Nellis. What year was that, do you recall ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think that was in 1946 or 1947, whatever the returns 
show. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 155 

Mr. Nellis. That was a gambling enterprise, was it not ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the Buckeye Catering Co. ? 

Mr. Giesey. Buckeye Catering Co. is the — I still think it would be 
a surprise to me if you find any slot machines there; it is the pinball 
machines that Jerry Milano runs. 

Mr. Nellis. Anybody else in with him ? 

Mr. Giesey. He has two other partners. I don't recall who they 
are. Jerry Milano and 

Mr. Nellis. James Licavoli ? 

Mr. Giesey. No. I don't know James Licavoli. I never had any- 
thing to do with him. I wouldn't know him if I see him. 

All I know about Licavoli is that he is connected with the Purple 
gang, according to the newspapers. I don't know him. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know the two other partners in the Buck- 
eye Catering. 

Did you ever know that John Angersola was in that ? 

Mr. Giesey. You are talking about a different business now. 

Mr. Nellis. What are the two businesses? 

Mr. Giesey. I mean, the Buckeye Catering Co. that we are talking 
about here is the Buckeye Catering Co. that is in business today. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the one that was in business when Angersola 
drew income from it ? 

Mr. Giesey. That must have been prior to 1938 or 1939. I don't 
know what you are referring to there. 

Mr. Nellis. It was 1940. You prepared the returns, didn't you? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't think John Angersola had ever showed up in 
the Buckeye Catering Co. in 1940. 

Mr. Nellis. How about Al Polizzi? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't think so. I'd have to see it. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't recall that? 

Mr. Giesey. I definitely don't recall it, no. 

Mr. Nellis. In 1940 you prepared a return which shows that Al 
Polizzi received some income from the Buckeye Catering Co. 

Mr. Giesey. Then if I prepared the return, I will take all the 
responsibility for it ; must have been. 

Mr. Nellis. You recall now, don't you ? 

Mr. Giesey. I still don't recall it, but if you say I prepared a 
return in 1940, 1 will take your word for it. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the business of the company at that time? 

Mr. Giesey. They were in — in 1940 ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. That could have been a slot-machine business in 1940. 

Mr. Nellis. A slot-machine business? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. And John Angersola received income from that same 
business in 1940. 

Mr. Giesey. Then he was a partner in the Buckeye Catering Co., 
then. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of business was it then ? 

Mr. Giesey. Slot machine. You are talking about 1940 ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. O. K. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 11 



156 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. You prepared the return, didn't you? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't recall, but if you 

Mr. Nellis. Don't you recall a discussion with a revenue agent 
concerning John King's return on that particular item? 

Mr. Gieset. Not on that particular item. I recall probably dis- 
cussing matters with the internal revenue agent, but I don't remember 
the year. If you say it was 1940, and you have any definite record, 
it was probably 1940. 

Mr. Nellis. In that same year he had miscellaneous gambling in- 
come which, I take it, you also put down ? 

Mr. Giesey. Are you sure I prepared John Angersola's income tax 
return ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, you prepared his tax return. It is right here in 
our record on file with the committee. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, then 

Mr. Nellis. Then it must be so ? 

Mr. Giesey. If my name is shown that I prepared 

Mr. McMahon. May the witness have the income tax return to re- 
fresh his recollection? He says he doesn't know. 

The Chairman. I think he brought some records there, probably 
yesterday. 

Mr. McMahon. I don't believe we brought anything like that, did 
we? 

Mr. Giesey. I know we didn't. 

Mr. McMahon. If they have it, maybe he can discuss it from there, 
but he has no definite recollection what is in it. 

Mr. Nellis. But no doubt if the committee record shows it, you 
would agree that it is right? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't say the committee record, Mr. Nellis. I 
would say if the original income tax return shows my name on it 

Mr. Nellis. Then it is right ? 

Mr. Giesey. I will say I prepared it ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And the Buckeye Catering at that time was a slot 
operation? 

Mr. Giesey. I didn't think it was in 1910. I thought that went out 
in 1938, lust if it shows in 1940 — no, I will still qualify that, It is 
my recollection that the slot machines went out in 1938, and that 
business operated as a pinball machine that I think came in vogue at 
that time. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions of this witness. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley has some. 

Mr. Halley. Did von prepare the return for the Anaersolas or any 
of them? 

Mr. Giesey. I did in the early years. I don't remember when we 
stopped. But I think the Angersolas left Cleveland in the early 
forties. 

Mr. Halley. Well, let's see. There are three brothers. 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, the only one I ever had anything to do with was 
John. 

Mr. Halley. John? 

Mr. Gtesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. What business was ho in? 

Mr. Giesey. He was in the slot-machine business, is the only knowl- 
edge I have of him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 157 

Mr. Halley. And that was illegal at the time; is that right? 
Mr. Giesey. Well, 1 guess it still is. 

Mr. Halley. Well, then, you never did any tax work for Fred 
Anger sol a '. 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Then this chap. Morris Kleinman, I think you have 
testified he was in various gambling enterprises. Had he any other 
business ? 

Mr. Giesey. Morris Kleinman? 
Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. He owns an apartment house. When we filed his 
return, on Kemper Road, Shaker Heights. 
3lr. Halley. And any other business? 
Mr. Giesey. Well, there is the Desert Inn. 

Mr. Halley. Well, that is another gambling business, of course. 
Mr. Giesey. That is all that I have any knowledge of Mr. Kleinman. 
Mr. Halley. So far as you know, he is practically completely a 
man in the gambling business; is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, you are asking me for an opinion, and it could 
be. from his income, maybe, the majority part of it comes from the 
gambling business. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you don't know any that doesn't come from 
the gambling business except an investment he made in an apartment 
house I 

M'\ Giesey. Except the apartment house, that is right, and his 
dividends from Detroit Steel Corp., which were quite substantial. 

Mr. Halley. And at least, presumably, the money he invested in 
Detroit Steel and the apartment house came from the gambling 
business. 

Mr. McMahon. Who makes that presumption? Not this witness. 
Mr. Halley. Xow, would you say that Tom McGinty has any 
legitimate enterprises? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't know anything about Mr. McGinty's per- 
sonal affairs. 
Mr. Halley. Do you prepare his income-tax returns ? 
Mr. Giesey. I do not prepare his tax returns. 

Mr. Halley. Well, he is a partner in some of the gambling enter- 
prises you do report for. 

Mr. Giesey. That is right, and information as to Mr. McGinty's 
share is furnished to Mr. Mpriarity. 

Mr. Halley. So. to the extent you know about Mr. McGinty's 

operations 

Mr. Giesey. I know nothing about them. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you know he is a partner in some gambling 
enterprises. 

Mr. Giesey. I have admitted that, Mr. Halley. 
Mr. Halley. But you don't know anything legitimate he does? 
Mr. McMahox. I object. He said he didn't know what his business 
was or what he is interested in. 

The Chairman. Well, does he know any legal businesses? That is 
the question. 

Mr. McMahox. He says he has no connection, Senator, with Tom 
McGinty. 

Mr. Giesey. Yes : I would say the only legal business that I have any 
knowledge of Mr. McGinty is in the Desert Inn. 



158 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hallet. Well, that is also a gambling enterprise. 

Mr. Giesey. It is a gambling enterprise, as well as a hotel, restaurant, 
and night club. 

Mr. Halley. Now then, Moe Dalitz ; did you prepare his return ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. In addition to these gambling enterprises, has he any 
legitimate business ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. Mr. Dalitz has a salary income from a linen 
supply company in Cleveland, and a linen supply company in Michi- 
gan. 

And I am assuming you have his income-tax returns and you can 
certainly get all that information right off there, because all his income 
is reported. He shows income from, I think, an interest in some oil 
lease. 

Mr. Halley. When did he go into these legitimate enterprises, if you 
know ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, as far as the Pioneer is concerned, he has been in 
the Pioneer before I went in the Army, and he was still in it when I 
got out, and he is still in it, as far as this oil lease is concerned. That 
might have been the past 3 or 4 years. That is pretty hard to recall, 
just when he did go in them. 

The tax returns will speak for themselves, Mr. Halley. When he 
went in, it would show on his tax returns when he went in it, if he 
received any income. 

Mr. Halley. Now, let's go on to Morris Wexler. Do you file his 
returns ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Does he have any legitimate business that you know 
of? 

Mr. Giesey. I know of nothing that Morris Wexler has that isn't 
legitimate. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a partner in any gambling enterprises ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is not a partner in any gambling enterprise that I 
know anything about. 

Mr. Halley. Has he ever been a partner in a gambling enterprise ? 

Mr. Giesey. Not to my knowledge, he has not. 

Mr. Halley. What are his legitimate interests? 

Mr. Giesey. The Theatrical Grill and the Empire News Service, or 
wire service. 

Mr. Halley. What is the situation with respect to Louis Rothkopf? 

Mr. McMahon. Concerning what? 

Mr. Halley. Concerning his businesses. 

Mr. Giesey. What legitimate business Louis Rothkopf has? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, he has an interest in that apartment house. 

Mr. Halley. Which apartment house is that ? 

Mr. Giesey. The one that Kleinman lias an interest in. 

He has dividends from the Detroit Steel Corp., and if I would see 
his tax return — I don't recall, there might be other things, but that 
is the major part of it. 

Mr. Halley. And he has these various gambling interests; is that 
right? 

Mi-. Giesey. That is right; yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 159 

Mr. Halley. And what is the situation with regard to Samuel 
Tucker? 

Mr. Giesey. I would say the same thing with Mr. Tucker. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what do you mean by the same thing? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I mean the major part of Mr. Tucker's income is 
from the gambling club. 

Mr. Halley. What legitimate enterprises has he? 

Mr. McMahon. Mr. Halley, may I suggest this? We have fur- 
nished 



The Chairmax. Well, Mr. McMahon, if he 

Mr. McMahon. Senator, may I complete what I have to say ? 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. McMahon. We furnished to the committee a number of income- 
tax returns. Now, may we have them available? They are in evi- 
dence as exhibits, so if the man could look at them, he could possibly 
answer your questions more definitely. 

Mr. Halley. I think that is a fair request. 

Mr. Nellis. Which ones I 

Mr. Halley. Give him all of them. 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Tucker's income-tax return 

Mr. McMahon. The ones I gave you, Mr. Nellis, were all on this. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I would say the only income Mr. Tucker would 
have would be from his gambling and dividends. I think that is right, 
Mr. Halley. I think that is all. 

Mr. Halley. Shall I go ahead? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I have answered the best I can without them. 

Mr. Halley. What would you say about Jimmy Brink or M. B. 
Brink, his wife? 

Mr. Giesey. What business they are in? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I think the biggest thing Jimmy Brink is in right 
now is his horses. He operates a racing stable, and his wife is a part- 
ner in the Beverly Hills and the Lookout Club. 

Mr. Halley. She took over his partnership ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. At about the time he acquired the racing stable, would 
you say ? 

Mr. Giesey. No;I don't thing there is any connection between the 
two. Mr. Brink has always been interested in horses, as long as I can 
remember. 

I don't know when he got into horses; no. We have only been 
preparing Mr. Brink's income-tax returns probably for the last 2 or 3 
years. 

Mr. Halley. In addition to the horses and the gambling business, 
does he have any other business — he or his wife ? 

Mr. Giesey. Not to my knowledge ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What are the businesses of Samuel Haas? 

Mr. Giesey. What are the businesses ? 

Br. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Haas is an attorney. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a partner in any of these gambling enterprises ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is not. 

Mr. Halley. He has no interest in any of them ? 

Mr. Giesey. None whatsoever, to my knowledge. 



160 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Is lie an attorney for any of the gambling enterprises ? 

Mr. Giesey. It is possible that he may represent some of these 
people. I have no definite knowledge of that, either. 

Mr. Halley. What are the businesses of Sam Miller? 

Mr. McMahon. That is "Game Boy"? 

Mr. Giesey. Sam "Game Boy" Miller? 

Mr. Halley. If I had said that, you would have objected. 

Mr. McMahon. The Senator said it, I think. 

The Chairman. All right. "Game Boy" Miller ; that is who we are 
talking about. 

Mr. Giesey. What was the question again, Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. What are the businesses of Sam Miller, alias "Game 
Boy"? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I would say that the majority of Mr. Miller's 
activities would be gambling. 

Mr. Halley. Has he any legitimate enterprises ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir ; Mr. Miller is a partner with Mr. Wexler in the 
wire service. 

Mr. Halley. In the wire service ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What wire service is that? 

Mr. Giesey. The wire service in Ohio. 

Mr. Halley. And do you know the name of the wire service? 

Mr. Giesey. Empire News and Empire Service Co. There are two 
companies. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know anybody named Joe DeCarlo? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Halley. Have you heard of him ? 

Mr. Giesey. Never even remember reading that one in the news- 
paper. 

Mr. Halley. Keep watching. Do you represent the wire service or 
any of the wire services ? 

Mr. Giesey. We have filed the returns for the wire service ; yes, sir. 

Mr. McMahon. Mr. Halley, can we have a clarification on wire 
service? I notice in the papers there was quite a discussion as to 
whether or not it was a wire service or a news service. 

Now, what are we talking about ? 

Mr. Halley. I will politely ignore that. 

Mr. Giesey. Now, let me qualify. I am not talking about any wire 
service that the newspapers were talking yesterday about Mr. Mc- 
Bride. I have no connection with any service with Mr. McBride. 

The Chairman. You are talking about the Empire? 

Mr. Giesey. I am talking about purely a local situation in Ohio. 

Mr. Halley. Who owns and controls it? 

Mr. Giesey. Wexler. 

Mr. Halley. Mushy Wexler? 

Mr. Giesey. Mushy Wexler. 

Mr. Halley. And who else ? 

Mr. Giesey. And Sammy Miller and Robert Kaye. 

Mr. Halley. And Robert Kaye? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. What other businesses does Robert Kaye have, if you 
know ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161 

Mr. Giesey. The only other business I know of Robert Kaye, he is 
presently working at the Desert Inn. He is the cashier at Desert Inn. 

Mr. Halley. Then he must be fairly — did he get that job because 
of his connection with this Kleinman group? 

Mr. McMaiion. Objection to that. 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I wouldn't say he did; no. 

Mr. Halley. Was he there before Kleinman bought into the Desert 
Inn? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't think so. I don't think there was anything 
there before they bought in. 

Mr. Halley. Oh, yes, there was an operation. 

Mr. Giesey. Well, you seem to know, Mr. Halley, but as I under- 
stand that place was built, and when it was completed these were the 
only people that ever occupied it. 

Mr. Halley. They finished the building. We held hearings out 
there and had a nice long talk with the owners. 

Mr. Giesey. But there was no operations there before the building 
was finished. 

Mr. Halley. There were no gambling operations; no. 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. But was he connected with the construction or super- 
vision of arrangements before he went there? 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, that I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. In other words, there was already a group out there 
working on the Desert Inn before the Kleinman group got in. 

Mr. Giesey. That I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. He went out with the Kleinman group ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. I read that in the papers ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Now, this other partner was a partner in what other 
gambling enterprise ? 

Mr. Giesey. Robert Kaye is connected in what gambling ? 

Mr. Halley. No, Miller. 

Mr. Giesey. Miller at one time was partner in the Lookout Club, 
and he left there in 1945 or 1944. 

Mr. Halley. Is he now a partner in any of the gambling places? 

Mr. Giesey. No. We filed Mr. Miller's tax return, and he has an 
interest in a club in Miami. 

Mr. Halley. What club is that ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't recall the name of it. 

Mr. Halley. The Colonial Inn ? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I am sure it wasn't the Colonial Inn. 

Mr. Halley. The Club Boheme? 

Mr. Giesey. No. 

Mr. Halley. Green Acres ? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; it doesn't sound like that, but it shows on the tax 
return. 

Mr. Halley. But he is in some gambling club in Miami? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. He has income from a gambling club in 
Miami. 

Mr. Halley. Winnie's Little Club in Miami ? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; that doesn't sound like it. 

Mr. Halley. Club Continental ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 



162 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Do you know if he was ever connected with the Wof- 
ford Hotel in Miami ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. The Island Club? 

Mr. Gi£sey. The Island Club sounds like the one. That is the one 
that he is connected with. 

Mr. Halley. And do you know any of the other partners at the 
Island Club? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the S. & G. Syndicate ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; only what I read in the newspapers. 

I will qualify that; I have been reading the newspapers. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know whether any of the partners in the 
S. & G. Syndicate in Miami were partners of the Island Club ? 

Mr. Giesey. Of that I have no knowledge ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Now, you appear — -would it be accurate to say that 
you are the man who handles the tax returns for a group of people 
who control the gambling in this area ? 

Mr. Giesey. Would you restate that question again ? 

Mr. Halley. Well, are you the tax man for the group that controls 
the gambling in this area ? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I wouldn't say so. I would say the Mounds Club 
was a pretty big gambling place, and the Jungle Inn was a pretty 
good-sized place. I had nothing to do with either one of those organi- 
zations, so I wouldn't say that I was. 

Mr. Halley. Were they competing groups? 

Mr. Giesey. They are all located in this area. Whether they are 
competing or not I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do they operate with the acquiesence and on a har- 
monious basis with your clients or 

Mr. Giesey. That I wouldn't have any knowledge of. 

Mr. Halley. Are they in competition? 

Mr. Giesey. That I wouldn't have any knowledge of. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether any of your clients have any 
interests, direct or indirect, in the Mounds Club or the Jungle Inn? 

Mr. Giesey. The parties that I named have no interest whatsoever 
in the Mounds Club and they have no interest in the Jungle Inn. 

Mr. Halley. They are operated by different groups ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. Now, the group 

Mr. Giesey. I don't know who is in the Jungle Inn at all. 

Mr. Halley. How do your clients manage to keep from being prose- 
cuted under local law ? 

Mr. McMahox. I object to that. 

Mr. Giesey. That is something I can't answer. 

Mr. McMahon. Don't answer that, why they are not prosecuted 
under local law. Why are you asking him ? He is not a police officer. 

Mr. Halley. Aw, relax. He can answer if he knows; if he doesn't, 
he doesn't have to answer. 

Mr. Giesey. It is a very simple answer. I do not know, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. That is an answer. 

Mr. McMaiion. You are a lawyer. Why do you ask him a question 
like that? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 163 

The Chairman. Mr. McMahon, he meets with these people ; he works 
up there. 

Mr. McMahon. I get kind of tired of making objections 

Mr. Giesey. I consider the question 

Mr. Hallet. The witness has been very cooperative, much more so 
than you. 

Mr. Giesey. I have no reason 

Mr. Hallet. It was a fair question and he has given a fair answer. 

Mr. Giesey. I have no reason to be other than cooperative. 

Mr. McMahon. It was not a fair question. 

Mr. Halley. In the course of your accounting work for them, have 
you ever been told that certain of the moneys which are charged as 
expenses are used to bribe local enforcement officers? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I am sorry it is a very obvious answer. I have 
no knowledge of that. 

Mr. Halley. Wouldn't it be a normal question for the man filing 
the tax returns for illegal gambling enterprises to try to find out 
whether any of the expenses charged were used for bribes ? 

Mr. McMahon. Quietly, I would like to object to that question, 
Senator. 

Mr. Giesey. But I can give you the answer to that. 

Mr. McMahon. Senator, I have an objection. 

The Chairman. If he knows what it is used for 

Mr. Giesey. I can state definitely. Senator 

The Chairman. If it is for protection, let him tell. 

Mr. Giesey. There is no such disbursements on any books or records 
that I ever handled for these people that would show any contribu- 
tions of any type other than to organized charity like the Red Cross, 
the Jewish Welfare, and they give a very large amount to charitable 
organizations. 

Mr. Halley. Is that a practice they have made? 

Mr. Giesey. That is — whether it is a practice, it is probably the 
duty of everybody to contribute to these organizations and they go 
along with their share probably more than most people do. 

Mr. Halley. How much money do they contribute to charities? 

Mr. Giesey. Well 

Mr. McMahon. Do you want to refer to the income-tax return ? 

Mr. Giesey. Refer to the income-tax return and you will see it right 
on there. 

Mr. Halley. You may have the return. 

Mr. Giesey. It is very substantial. 

Mr. Halley. I would like to have an idea of the charitable contri- 
butions. You may look at them. 

Mr. Giesey. I can recall on one or two of those returns last year 
that they are limited to contributions of 15 percent of their income 
and they exceeded that amount. 

Mr. Halley. Who are the two ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think it was Rothkopf and Kleinman. 

Mr. Halley. And they take their deductions, of course ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Do the corporations also contribute to charity ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, they all do. 

Mr. Halley. I mean 

Mr. Giesey. There is no particular advantage now. 



164 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. I mean the real-estate corporation ? 

Mr. Giesey. No, I would say the partnerships do all the contributing 
because the corporation doesn't get much advantage for the contribu- 
tions, so these contributions are taken by the partnership. 

Mr. Halley. The partners then take the tax deductions ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Do you feel that these large charitable contributions 
are to some extent made in order to appease any sentiment which there 
might be to prosecute these people for violating the law ? 

Mr. McMahon. I object to that question, Senator. 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. 

The Chairman. That is a fair question. I think it is very perti- 
nent to our inquiry. 

Mr. McMahon. Is that so ? 

Mr. Giesey. If it is not a ridiculous question, it won't be a ridiculous 
answer. I would say that they make those contributions because 
they are in a community, like everybody in Cleveland probably con- 
tributes to the community fund. They are solicited and probably 
solicited a lot more than the average person would be solicited for 
contributions, and they don't just turn them down; they make the 
contribution. 

Mr. Halley. They go along ? 

Mr. Giesey. They go along, but whether or not they do that with 
any qualms of conscience or not, that is something you will have 
to get from them. I wouldn't have any knowledge of it. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, if they make a charitable contribution, they 
can deduct that? 

Mr. McMahon. Sure, and everybody else can, too. 

Mr. Halley. Will you please stop volunteering? You are here 
as a courtesy to you. If you have any objection, make it. 

Mr. McMahon. I am here with a constitutional right, to appear with 
this man as counsel. Let's not talk about courtesy. 

Mr. Halley. You talk about your constitutional right. You have 
none whatsoever. 

Mr. McMahon. It is interesting to know that one has no constitu- 
tional rights, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. I didn't say that. You are very inaccurate. 

The Chairman. Mr. McMahon, some committees allow counsel to 
appear and some don't. 

Mr. McMahon. Well 

The Chairman. The usual procedure is to require counsel if they 
are going to appear to submit questions in writing and then the chair- 
man will ask such questions as are submitted in writing. We tried 
to do it differently. 

Mr. McMahon. I see that you do. 

The Chairman. And please try to cooperate. All right, Mr. 
Halley. 

Mr. Giesey. What was the last question ? 

Mr. Halley. You. were stating and I was referring to your expert 
knowledge. 

Mr. Giesey. When we were rudely interrupted ? 

Mr. Halley. That's not funny. 

Mr. Gtesey. As they say on the radio. 

Mr. Halley. It is not funny. Let's get down to cases. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 165 

Mr. Giesey. Let's get back to it because I would like to get something 
else done other than this. 

Mr. Haleey. Fine. If they made a payment as a bribe, that would 
not be deductible, is that right? 

Mr. Giesey. It would not be deductible, sir. 

Mr. Haleey. Do you 

Mr. Giesey. It is against public policy. 

Mr. Haeeey. That's right. Do you as a part of your duty in saying 
that they file straight income-tax returns take great care to see that 
no bribes have filtered in among their expenses that they charge up ? 

Mr. Giesey. I can guarantee you there is no such expenditure show- 
ing on any records that I have used for income-tax purposes. That is 
a fact. 

Mr. Haeeey. What precaution do you take to see that it is not listed 
under any other items that they are not in effect paying bribes and 
taking them as income-tax deductions ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, if they show a contribution on their returns to the 
community fund and that goes to some sheriff, I wouldn't have any 
way in the world of knowing. I take their word that it is the com- 
munity fund. 

Mr. Haeeey. Suppose this partner, though, who counts the cash each 
day in the office peels a thousand dollars off for somebody and just 
reports that much was cash taken in. How would you guard against 
that ? 

Mr. Giesey. I have no guard against that. 

Mr. Haeley. Isn't it a reasonable assumption that large operations 
in violation of the law must do something in order to get protection ? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Haeley. Well, as a former agent of the Internal Revenue De- 
partment, wouldn't you suspect that very strongly? 

Mr. Giesey. I imagine the average person would conclude that there 
must be such a situation but I have no knowledge of it. 

Mr. Haeley. Have you made any effort to find out? Have you just 
point-blank asked your clients? 

Mr. Giesey. If they ever paid any bribes ? 

Mr. Haleey. Yes. 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I don't think I would have the courage to ask them 
a question like that. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Well, why wouldn't you have the courage to ? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, to me it would be a ridiculous question and I 
would probably get a ridiculous answer. 

The Chairman. One matter I couldn't understand very well, Mr. 
Giesey, and that is about that $7,500 loan that you made to the Desert 
Inn, back, I believe, in April 1949 ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Who 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. Tucker 

The Chairman. Persuaded or asked you- 



Mr. Giesey. Mr. Sam Tucker said that they were running into ex- 
penses out there and they were trying to get their finances through, 
to get a mortgage on it, and he asked me if I had— had any amount 
I could loan them, and I had $7,500 which Mr. Tucker guaranteed I 



166 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

would get back, and I sent them a check to the corporation. It was 
a matter of investment ; I got l 1 /^ percent on it and I got the money 
back. That is all there was to it. 

The Chairman. Mr. Kleinman was in this corporation very heavily, 
wasn't he ? He had plenty of money ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

The Chairman. I just wondered why they would pick on you, the 
accountant, to loan them $7,500. 

Mr. Giesey. They probably used all the money they had. 

The Chairman. Did you talk with Wilbur Clark? 

Mr. Geesey. No; I don't know Mr. Clark at all, Senator. 

The Chairman. You met him when you were out there ? 

Mr. Giesey. I did not meet Wilbur Clark when I was out there; 
no, sir. 

The Chairman. What happened in that connection was that Wil- 
bur Clark started the Desert Inn and just about finished the building, 
they had a hotel there or something, and he ran out of money. Then 
he came and got your clients to put up a lot of money, didn't he, 
above a million dollars? 

Mr. Giesey. From what I rend in the newspapers, but that's all 
handled by lawyers and accountants from Los Angeles, Senator, and 
you can get that information from them. 

The Chairman. Between that time — 2 days after this Desert Inn 
loan of $7,500, well, 2 days after it was paid, you deposited $7,500 
from Sam Haas ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right, a personal loan that I got from Sam 
Hass and I paid it back. 

The Chairman. Why would you be getting a loan right after you 
had been paid? 

Mr. Giesey. When that check came in, I don't recall the connec- 
tion there, but there was no connection between the two of them, Sen- 
ator, other than I borrowed $7,500 from Sam Haas for something, and 
I was buying some stock, and I had some money coming in and when 
it came in, I paid him back. 

The Chairman. Did you borrow the $7,500 from Haas right after 
you loaned the money to Desert Inn or right after it was paid back? 

Mr. GrESEY. Well, whatever the record shows. 

The Chairman. This notation from your records 

Mr. Giesey. No, I think I loaned the money in April and I didn't 
get it back until September. 

The Chairman. April 11. Anyway, the notation in quotation marks 
is "Sam H. X check." 

Mr. Geesey. That means I gave him my check and he would hold 
it. It was an exchange of checks, that's right. 

The Chairman. From your records here you have "1-6-50, $7,500, 
Wilbur Clark, Desert Inn." Then the next under that is "6 months 
loan, 4 percent." Then the next notation is "9-8-50, $7,500, Desert 
Inn loan." That is apparently a repayment. 

Mr. Giesey. That's when 1 got the money back, that is right. 

The Chairman. That was August 8 or 9 ? 

Mr. Giesey. September, wasn't it? 

The Chairman. September 8, 1950. Now, "September 11, 1950, 
$7,500, Sam H. X check." 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 167 

Mr. Giesey. Well, I was borrowing — I was going to borrow $7,500 
from Mr. Haas for some purpose that had nothing to do with the 
Desert Inn. 

The Chairman. Is that a customary thing, that you just borrow 
$7,500 off and on from Mr. Haas? 

Mr. Giesey. No, and it is very rare. 

The Chairman. It would seem that if you just got $7,500 back 

Mr. Giesey. I didn't know I was going to get that $7,500. I prob- 
ably had his check for a couple of days and when the $7,500 came 
in, I didn't expect it, when I got it back at that time, it wasn't due 
for another several weeks. 

Mr. Nellis. It was just coincidental that the two amounts are the 
same? 

Mr. Giesey. There isn't anything but coincidental, Mr. Nellis. 

The Chairman. I don't seem to find many income-tax returns ex- 
cept on Union — whatever that company is. 

Mr. McMahon. Enterprise? 

The Chairman. Union Enterprise. 

Mr. McMahon. Is it Enterprise? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

The Chairman. You did some work for John Angersola, didn't 
you? 

Mr. Giesey. As late as 1940, from what Mr. Nellis has advised me. 

The Chairman. Or even in 1945 ? 

Mr. Giesef. I don't think so. 

The Chairman. 1940 ? 

Mr. Giesey. 1940 I would say was the last year. I didn't think it 
was that late. 

The Chairman. And that's about the time you went down to 
Florida ? 

Mr. Gessey. That's right. 

The Chairman. Do you remember if he was in the Walgren Hotel ? 

Mr. Giesey. That I got from reading the newspapers. 

The Chairman. Winney's Little Club ? Do you remember that ? 

Mr. Giesey. I wouldn't have any knowledge of that, Senator. 

Mr. Nellis. One more question, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Nellis. You went to the opening of the Desert Inn, you tes- 
tified? 

Mr. Giesey. I was in California on another matter, and when I 
came back, I stopped off at Desert Inn, intending to stay there 1 day, 
and I stayed for the opening. 

Mr. Nellis. On the way back from California to Cleveland ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you meet anyone on the plane? 

Mr. Giesey. Tod Simon, Cleveland Plain Dealer. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know who he was? 

Mr. Giesey. I didn't know who he was. We were both taking pic- 
tures, and I met him out at the Desert Inn, and he impressed me as 
being a very fine gentleman. 

Mr. Nellis. That is all I have. 

The Chairman. One matter about this Detroit Steel Corp. You 
and your wife don't seem to own stocks in very many different cor- 



168 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

porations. You bought this after Dalitz and Rothkopf and Tucker 
and Kleinman got in. It must have been because you thought, after 
talking with them and going over the matter with them, it was a 
good 

Mr. Giesey. Senator, you are 1,000 miles from any connection be- 
tween my buying Detroit Steel stock and Morris Kleinman and those 
gentlemen. There is no connection whatsoever. I get my advice from 
brokers and not from Morris Kleinman and Rothkopf on stocks. 

The Chairman. You seem to have some stock in Kinetic Manufac- 
turing Co. 

Mr. Giesey. That was a company that went broke. 

The Chairman. It went broke % 

Mr. Giesey. That is the prosperous manufacturing company that 
Mr. Allen referred to in the paper. They sold it at public auction in 
January of 1950. 

The Chairman. And about five other corporations — four other 
corporations — but you bought stock in Detroit Steel after your clients 
had gotten into it? 

Mr. Giesey. Oh, no ; I didn't. 

The Chairman. Didn't you ? 

Mr. Giesey. These clients got into that during the war. They 
bought that stock at $5 a share, Senator. I wish I could have bought 
mine at $5 ; I paid $26 a share for mine. 

The Chairman. But you knew they had an interest when you 
bought yours? 

Mr. Giesey. I knew they had it, but there is no connection with 
them owning Detroit Steel stock other than I could see they were 
getting large dividends from Detroit Steel and I thought that sounded 
like a good investment, but it certainly wasn't based on any informa- 
tion I got from them. As a matter of fact, that stock went way down 
after I bought it. It just happens right now it is up. 

The Chairman. Where are the headquarters of this wire or news 
service ; the Empire News Service ? 

Mr. Giesey. It seems to me it is in the Chester-Ninth Building. 

The Chairman. How long have you been doing accounting work 
for them ; for the News Service ? 

Mr. Giesey. Probably since 1945, 1946. 

The Chairman. Were there three men in the News Service ? 

Mr. Giesey. They have always been connected with it. Wait a 
minute; that was before the war when they had the Empire Adver- 
tising Co. ; it was one of those companies that was 

Mr. Nellis. It was Wexler & Miller? 

Mr. Giesey. Wexler, Miller & Kay have always been the only 
three connected with those services. 

Mr. Nellis. And Wexler is the man who actually owns it? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Does Kay have any part in running the News Service? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Nellis. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter the 
record on Morris Wexler on which there was some testimony yes- 
terday. 

The Chairman. Is this from the Cleveland Police Department? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. It is identified from the Cleveland Police Depart- 
ment record bureau, and it is signed by Deputy Inspector Burnette. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 169 

The Chairman. I think in fairness to Mr. Wexler it should be 
stated that this shows that one seems to be a traffic arrest; another 
one is a suspicious person, 1927, for which he was discharged. The 
third one seems to be in connection with wagers, occupying rooms 
for recording wagers, 10-25-38, no papers, arrested 11328 Euclid 
Avenue. The next one is aided and abetted gambling, 5-11-42, dis- 
charged, arrested at 5214 Euclid Avenue. 

That is signed by Deputy Inspector Burnette. 

If there are no other questions — do you have any others? 

Mr. Nellis. No other questions. 

(The record of Morris Wexler, exhibit No. 51 is on file with the 
committee. ) 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Mr. McMahon. Sir, before we leave 

The Chairman. You can have your stocks back at this time, and 
we will get these other papers back to you. 

Mr. McMahon. Senator, it was indicated by Mr. Halley and your- 
self, I think, that before we adjourned I might ask ■ 

The Chairman. Yes. Please go right ahead. 

Mr. McMahon. Mr. Giesey, a couple of questions. 

Now, first of all, Mr. Giesey, do you have any connection, financial 
or otherwise, in the management and operation of any of these gam- 
bling clubs that have been named here today? 

Mr. Giesey. I have no financial interest whatsoever in them. 

Mr. McMahon. Is it your understanding of the law that any per- 
son in the United States who makes an income, irrespective of the 
source, is entitled and required to file an income-tax report? 

Mr. Giesey. May I have that question again ? 

Mr. McMahon. Anyone in the United States is entitled and re- 
quired to file an income-tax return? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. McMahon. In connection with these people, what have you 
done or what has your connection been with them other than filing 
these income-tax reports? 

Mr. Giesey. None whatsoever. 

Mr. McMahon. The information that you have given to the Sen- 
ator, not the committee, today is shown upon the exhibits that you 
have previously brought before the committee under subpena ? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. McMahon. For some time is it not true that the information 
that is contained upon those records has been available in the col- 
lector's internal revenue office here in Cleveland? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, they are available in the Government files of the 
Internal Eevenue Bureau either here or in Washington. 

Mr. McMahon. You have no further information other than what 
is contained on those records as far as it was given to you by these 
people and you put it down as they gave it to you '. 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. McMahon. You said something about the Detroit Steel Co. 
What is your knowledge as to the number of shares that company is 
capitalized at? 

Mr. Giesey. I think they have approximately 3,000,000 shares of 
stock outstanding. 

Mr. McMahon. And you and yeur wife have 



170 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gieset. Have 400 shares. 

Mr. McMahon. Four hundred shares. There was something about 
some group of people on the chart. You didn't prepare that chart, 
did you? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. That was a revelation to me to see that. 

Mr. McMahon. On that chart it was indicated 

Mr. Giesey. I would still like to see more of it. 

Mr. McMahon. That you had 10,000 shares? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

The Chairman. Not on the chart. That is what he said — that they 
got 10,000 shares. 

Mr. McMahon. I assumed that the chart was a break-down 

Mr. Giesey. I haven't examined the chart. 

Mr. McMahon. Very well, Senator; now, we won't go into it. 
Where did you buy the Detroit Steel Co. stock? 

Mr. Giesey. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Beane. 

Mr. McMahon. Who are they ? 

Mr. Giesey. They are a brokerage firm. It is one of the largest 
brokerage firms in the United States. 

Mr. McMahon. Is that stock listed on a board ? 

Mr. Giesey. It is listed on the New York Stock Exchange. 

Mr. McMahon. Did you acquire any part of the 400 shares that you 
own from any of the people mentioned here today ? 

Mr. Giesey. Definitely not. 

Mr. McMahon. You have told the committee that you have received 
certain fees from the persons named here today — Rothkopf, Klein- 
man, and the rest of them ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. McMahon. Those were solely for the purpose of making out 
their income-tax returns or doing their accounting work? 

Mr. Giesey. In connection with the tax returns; that is right. 

Mr. McMahon. I think you testified that your total income for the 
partnership was $79,000 during the course of last year; is that true? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. McMahon. What was the percentage of the amount of income 
you received from any man mentioned here today with relation to your 
total partnership income? 

Mr. Giesey. I think it was around five or six thousand dollars. 

Mr. McMahon. So that it would be a very small percentage. 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. McMahon. Have you anything further to tell the committee? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir; other than neither myself — and I would like 
to for the purposes of the newspapers to include Mr. Sauers and his 
wife and my wife, Senator — that, what the newspapers say to the con- 
trary wit hstanding, we have never had any connection whatsoever witli 
any company that operates slot machines. We have never inherited 
anything or particularly slot machines from Weisenberg or anybody 
else, although it is repeatedly, stated in the papers that we have in- 
herited machines from one Nate Weisenberg. If anything was ever 
further from the truth, that certainly is. 

As you can see what (he purpose of the paper would have other 
than ( rying to tear me down, for some reason, particularly that art icle 
in the ( leveland Press that stated that I have stocks worth $1S(),000, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 171 

and right after it, it makes the innuendous remark "$180,000 for the 
one-time Government agent who went to work for Kleinman when 
Kleinman got out of jail." Well, the only inference is that I just got 
rich overnight on these people, but if they would have — and I can't 
understand why a paper like the Cleveland Press could make a state- 
ment here, 5,000 shares United Aircraft Products, Inc., and right 
under it it states that it was listed as worth $36 a share, when on 
another sheet of that same newspaper all they had to do was look at 
it and they would see United Aircraft Products, 2,300 shares were sold 
between 6V2 and 6*4 net. 

All I would like to do is any inference that may have been put in 
the newspapers, if they are gentlemen enough to correct it, I think I 
at least have that coming to me. 

The Chairman. Well, I am glad that you have corrected the price. 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. 

Mr. Hallet. Mr. Giesey, you are a secretary of two corporations 
which own real estate, as you have testified? 

Mr. Giesey. It is in the record ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And you have testified you serve as secretary in order 
to facilitate their business by signing various papers for them? 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. I would like 

Mr. Halley. And in each of these cases the corporation is in the 
business of renting its premises to a gambling operation ? 

Mr. Giesey. That there is no question about. 

Mr. Halley. And in each of these cases you have actually been on 
the premises of the gambling operation and seen it ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And in each of these cases you well know that the 
gambling operation is illegal? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Under those, circumstances, is it your contention that 
you do nothing to aid and abet those illegal gambling operations? 

Mr. Giesey. That I state I do not. I prepare their income-tax 
returns, which is an obligation everybody has to the Government, to 
file income-tax returns on the income they receive. That is what I do. 

Mr. Halley. The secretary of a corporation is an important officer 
of a corporation ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. A corporation has no existence except 

Mr. Giesey. What good is going to be served by us taking up the 
time of this committee in arguing? What do you want me to admit? 

Mr. Halley. I want you to admit that you have actively helped in 
aiding and abetting the operation of these gambling joints. 

Mr. Giesey. I filed their tax returns, and if that is aiding and 
abet tin o- gambling, then I have done that. 

Mr. Halley. You did something else; you acted as a secretary 
of a 

Mr. Giesey. A corporation that rented property. 

Mr. Halley. And you were fully aware of what you were doing; 
you didn't do it without any knowledge ? 

Mr. Giesey. I am old enough to know what I am doing. 



68958—51 — pt. 6 12 



172 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Your counsel has brought out that you did all this 
for just $5,000 a year out of a gross income of some $79,000; is that 
right? 

Mr. Giesey. That is what he said ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. I am curious to know why you would be willing to 
help this gang operate in so many different places illegally for so 
little money. 

Mr. McMahon. I object to that, Senator. ■ 

The Chairman. I think there is a mistake about your $5,000. I 
think Mr. Giesey testified he got $5,000 out of these two Kentucky 
places. But there is the Pettibone Club, the Colony Club, and sev- 
eral others. 

Mr. Giesey. I think that is included in there. 

Mr. McMahon. I object. May I be heard? 

The Chairman. Will you ask the question, Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. I am very curious to know why you are willing, a 
former agent of this Government with a background of which I pre- 
sume you were proud, the man who had succeeded in putting Klein- 
man in jail, to lend yourself to these illegal operations for what you 
now come in and say is chicken feed. 

Mr. McMahon. I want to be heard on that. 

The Chairman. All right. You can be heard. 

Mr. McMahon. There is a presumption there that the mere fact 
that you make out an income-tax return for someone who is engaged 
in some illegal enterprise, that you are aiding and abetting, and that 
is not true. 

Mr. Halley. Do you insist on forgetting that he is secretary to these 
corporations ? 

Mr. McMahon. He is a secretary to a corporation that owns some 
land. 

Mr. Halley. Two corporations. 

Mr. McMahon. What does the other one own ? 

Mr. Halley. Land. 

Mr. McMahon. All right. Is that gambling to own land ? 

Mr. Halley. Shall we swear you in? I will ask you a few ques- 
tions. 

Mr. McMahon. Fine. Do you want to ask me some questions? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McMahon. Go right ahead, Mr. Halley. 

The Chairman. Sit down. We are getting along all right. 

The question is, Is there any motive other than the little money 
you got out of these various illegal transactions for which you filed 
income tax for your participation in them? 

Mr. Giesey. No, sir. They are clients, and I have been associated 
with them this long period. If they want to get anybody else to pre- 
pare their income-tax returns, they can get them, but as long as they 
ask me to prepare the tax returns I think I will prepare the tax 
returns. 

Mr. Halley. Is that little $5,000 item you mentioned worth the 
amount of work you put in ? 

Mr. Giesey. For the amount of time involved in it, yes ; it is on an 
hourly basis. 

Mr. Halley. Does it give you a certain prestige with certain por- 
tions of the community to work for these fellows? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 173 

Mr. Giesey. I think that is a little ridiculous, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. I don't know. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. 

Mr. Giesey. Maybe it gives you prestige to represent this committee 
here. 

Mr. Halley. I think it does. 

Mr. Giesey. It should. 

Mr. Halley. Do you like to go out, for instance, to the Desert Inn 
and be one of the people who knows the managers ? 

Mr. Giesey. I don't do that. 

Mr. Halley. You were there at the opening. 

Mr. Giesey. I stopped there at the opening; and if it hadn't been 
for Mr. Simon, probably no one would ever have known I was. 

Mr. Halley. And when you go down to Newport and the other 
places in Kentucky, do you have an expense account, or do you act 
like a big shot ? What is the inducement to you ? Why do you do 
these things ? 

Mr. Giesey. For the almighty dollar. The same as you are doing, 
the job vou are doing right now, and I would like to have one thing 

Mr. Halley. I accept that answer. 

Mr. Giesey. That is a good answer, isn't it ? 

Mr. Halley. It is an answer. 

Mr. Giesey. We are talking about types of criminals here. I am 
more concerned with the type of criminal that affects you and affects 
me and my future, and that is the war criminal that is going to get us 
in another war. 

These fellows have their places, and you have a duty to stamp them 
out, but God knows there is a worse criminal in this world than these 
fellows we are talking about here, and that is the criminals that are 
getting us into another war right now, and I wish we could all do 
something about that. 

We all have our own job. 

Mr. Halley. At the moment mine seems to be that of janitor. 

Mr. Giesey. I am still an auxiliary officer in the Artillery Reserve, 
and I know what it means to get in another war. When I got in that 
last war I give up a large part of my business, which was a substan- 
tial 

Mr. Halley. Well 

Mr. McMahon. He started to ask him opinions. Let him get all his 
opinions. 

The Chairman. Under the law of most States, I think in order to be 
an officer of a corporation you have to have at least one share of stock. 

Mr. Giesey. That is not true. 

Mr. McMahon. That is not true. That is not true in Ohio. 

The Chairman. I am asking the witness. 

Mr. Giesey. It is not true, to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. One of these is a Kentucky corporation, I believe, 
isn't it? 

Mr. Giesey. Well, then, I am not the secretary because I have no 
stock in the company, Senator. 

The Chairman. Do you have a nominal share? 

Mr. Giesey. No ; I do not even have a nominal share. 

The Chairman. That is what I wanted to ask you about. 

Mr. Giesey. That's right. I don't. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Francis Weisenberg ? 



174 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Giesey. I do not, because Francis lias been dead. I did know 
Francis Weisenberg. 

Mr. Nellis. That is what I mean. 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you and your partner and someone else purchase 
an interest that he had through a probate court proceedings ? 

Mr. Giesejt. Now you are going to open up something else that I 
would be very glad to go into. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you explain that ? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes, I certainly will, for the benefit of the Cleveland 
Press and probably the Plain Dealer, too. 

When I was in the Army they started a music-box business in Phoe- 
nix, Ariz. I was asked if I wanted to invest a thousand dollars or 
$1,500, whatever it was. 

Mr. Nellis. By whom ? 

Mr. Giesey. By Mr. Haas. It is the only time I have ever been in 
connection with any business that he has ever asked me, so I said, 
"Yes, I would like to." 

So not being here, it was put in my wife's name, and it was strictly 
an operation of a juke box where you go into a little restaurant and 
you put in a nickel and you get a piece of music out. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that IVIelody Music Co. ? 

Mr. Giesey. That is Melody Music Co., and there was another one 
formed in Denver. I think it was called Century, and that one I think 
Mr. Sauers' wife became a partner, and we each had about a 5-percent 
interest in it. 

There was another one in Colorado Springs that I had no connection 
with whatsoever. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that Modern ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think that was Modern. 

When Francis Weisenberg suddenly died, his being a partner in 
those partnerships, it was a legal procedure to go into the probate 
court as a surviving partner, and those surviving partners bought out 
the 5 or 6 percent of interest that Francis Weisenberg had in those 
companies that operated music boxes. 

Somehow or other, when they listed all of the assets of those com- 
panies, which some appraiser did a good job, I think it was the one 
at Colorado Springs had a couple of slot machines listed as the assets. 
Now, out of several hundred thousand dollars worth of juke boxes that 
they had, there might have been a hundred or two hundred dollars 
worth of slot machines. So all that the newspapers ever said anything 
about those operations out there is that they were slot-machine opera- 
tions. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, there were slots in it, weren't there ? 

Mr. Giesey. The inventory showed up those slots in Colorado 
Springs, but I don't think they ever operated a slot-machine company. 

Mr. Nellis. You and your partner Sauers and someone else pur- 
chased an interest, didn't you? How many people bought? 

Mr. Giesey. There was at least 10 or 12 partners in that. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you recall their names ? 

Mr. McMahon. I think they are listed in the probate court. 

Mr. Giesey. The probate court record will show every name. 

I think it was Morris Haas, a fellow by the name of Hines, most of 
them were out West ; a fellow by the name of Harry Bowes. I think 
he was in it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 175 

I had a 5-percent interest and ended up with a 5^-percent interest. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you share that with anyone? 

Mr. Giesey. That was in my wife's name. It was a partnership. 

The Chairman. Who else was in it? You have got Haas and 
Bowes. 

Mr. Giesey. Mr. McGinty had, I think, 4 or 5 percent in it. 

Mr. Nellis. Thomas McGinty? 

Mr. Giesey. Thomas McGinty in one of them — I don't know which 
one. Maybe I was in one that he was in. I don't recall. 

Dick Moriarity, an attorney, had an interest, and Morris C. Haas, 
he had an interest. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he, sir ? 

Mr. Giesey. He is a brother of Sam Haas. 

And Duddy. There is some people in there by the name of Duddy. 
I think they are related some way to Mr. McGinty, but that operation 
was 100 percent legitimate juke-box operation. 

The Chairman. Let's get the other name of the partners. Who 
else? 

Mr. Giesey. We got out of that in 1946, Senator. I don't remember 
who the others were. 

The Chairman. Did Kleinman have any? 

Mr. Giesey. No. Kleinman, Rothkopf, Dalitz, Tucker, Miller — 
none of those had any interest whatsoever in it. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was Francis Weisenberg? 

Mr. Giesey. Francis Weisenberg was Nate Weisenberg's son. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was Nate Weisenberg? 

Mr. Giesey. Nate Weisenberg was a man who was suddenly killed 
here. 

Mr. Nellis. What was his business ? 

Mr. Giesey. He was in the slot-machine business. I met Nate 
Weisenberg when I was a Government agent when I checked Nate's 
tax return. 

Mr. Nellis. What happened to him? 

Mr. Giesey. He was murdered. 

Mr. Nellis. When? 

Mr. Giesey. I was in the Army so I don't know when it was. 
Probably 1944, 1 think. 1943 or 1944. 

Mr. Nellis. And Francis Weisenberg, was he in that business with 
his father? 

Mr. Giesey. In the slot machine — no, I don't think so. Francis was 
just a young kid. 

Mr. Nellis. When did he die ? 

Mr. Giesey. I think Francis must have died in probably 1946. 

Mr. Nellis. From natural causes? 

Mr. Giesey. Yes. He died of a heart attack. Just a young kid, 
I think 33 or 34 years old. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. Do you still have this interest? 

Mr. Giesey. No. We sold that out in 1946. 

The Chairman. All right. Anything else? Mr. McMahon is there 
anything you want to ask at this time? 

Mr. McMahon. I don't think so. Senator. Let's go to lunch. 

The Chatoman. All right. Good idea. 



176 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The committee will stand in recess until 2 o'clock at which time we 
will start promptly. 

(Thereupon, at 12:30 p. m., January 18, 1951, the hearing was 
recessed until 2 p. m. of the same date. ) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Richard Moriarity will be our next witness. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen. Let's get down to the essen- 
tial matters here. 

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD J. MORIARITY, ATTORNEY, CLEVELAND, 

OHIO 

Mr. Nellis. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Richard J. Moriarity. 

Mr. Nellis. What is your occupation, sir ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Attorney. 

The Chairman. Let's get the picture taking over as soon as possible, 
gentlemen. 

Mr. Moriarity. Attorney at law. 

Mr. Nellis. And you represent Mr. Thomas J. McGinty ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I have. 

Mr. Nellis. In what connection, sir ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Well, in some of his businesses, looking after — I can 
hardly see, lights blinding me. 

In looking after some real-estate matters and things of that kind, 
investments that he had, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What about the Mounds Club? Did you ever look 
after that ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I represented the Mounds Club in some litigation. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of place was it ? 

Mr. Moriarity. It was a dining and — they had a dining room, 
dance hall, things of that kind. 

Mr. Nellis. No gambling? 

Mr. Moriarity. I am not at liberty to answer that question, Mr. 
Nellis. I claim it is privileged. 

The only time I was at the Mounds Club was on business, and I claim 
the privilege of an attorney to refuse to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moriarity, what you have seen there is what 
you have seen with your own eyes as a citizen, but I take it there is no 
real dispute about what the Mounds Club was. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Moriarity, you know, any communication that is 
disclosed to others as well as to you is not privileged. That is ele- 
mentary law, so please don't press that point. 

Mr. Moriarity. Well, I am not going to press any point, Mr. Hal- 
ley; I am just saying that I think it is a privilege of counsel and you 
can't put me on the spot in things of that kind, because the only times 
I was at the Mounds Club, I was there purely on business. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 177 

Mr. Halley. Well, did you see gambling there ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you know you have no right to refuse to answer 
that. 

Mr. Moriarity. I claim the privilege of an attorney to refuse to 
answer the question. 

Mr. Halley. An attorney has no right to refuse to answer what he 
sees in a public place. That is not a privileged communication. 

Mr. Moriarity. Well, if I am there on business, Mr. Halley, that 
is a privilege. 

Mr. Halley. It doesn't matter what you claim. 

Mr. Moriarity. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds of 
privilege. 

Mr. Halley. I hereby state to you that your claim of privilege is 
completely erroneous, and you as a lawyer must know it, and that I 
am going to ask the chairman to instruct you to answer. 

Mr. Moriarity. I say that after all I am an attorney, Senator, 
and 

The Chairman. Mr. Moriarity, is this some information that was 
conveyed to you by your client? I mean, some document, or is it 
something that you just walked in the place and saw ? 

Mr. Moriarity. It was conveyed to me by my client. 

The Chairman. No ; I mean the sight of what you saw when you 
went to some place? 

Mr. Moriarity. No ; I saw things, certainly, but I was out there, I 
say, on business, and I claim that anything in connection with that is 
privileged. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Moriarity, it is of course the general rule 
that a Senate investigating committee doesn't have to recognize the 
matter of privilege but we try to go along and recognize it wherever 
we think that it is properly asserted. 

Mr. Moriarity. I don't think you have any right to put any lawyer 
on the spot by asking him to divulge his client's interests for some- 
thing that he himself may claim is privileged. 

The Chairman. But when you walk into a place and what you see, 
the room that you see, or whether it was an eating place or gambling 
place or some other kind of place, I really don't see how you have any 
privilege on that. 

Mr. Moriarity. Well, don't you think, Senator, as a matter 

The Chairman. Mr. Moriarity, in order to get the matter settled, 
I have to direct that you answer the question as to whether you saw 
gambling at the Mounds Club. 

Mr. Moriarity. I refuse to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Moriarity. On the ground of privilege. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever meet a man by the name of Fred Ridge ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Ridge? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Moriarity. No ; I did not, not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Nellis. Perhaps I can refresh your recollection. Did you ever 
meet him in Mr. McGinty's office? 

Mr. Moriarity. Not to my knowledge, no. Maybe — I wouldn't — 
I wouldn't say "No," but I Have met quite a number of people that I 
wouldn't have any recollection at all of who they would be. 



178 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Your answer is, you don't recollect it, is that right? 

Mr. Moriarity. That's right, that's true. 

Mr. Nellis. That is your best answer ? 

The Chairman. Can you describe him? Maybe if you described 
him, he will remember having met him. 

Mr. Nellis. He is about 5 feet 8, has dark hair, sort of quiet voice, 
is from Geauga County, from Chagrin Falls, Ohio. Do you know 
him ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I will say very frankly to you, Mr. Nellis, I have 
absolutely no recollection of meeting Mr. Ridge. It might be possible 
that I did, but I wouldn't say that I did or I didn't. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you ever the statutory agent for a company 
entitled Brady Amusement Co. ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I was. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the business of that company ? 

Mr. Moriarity. It was an amusement park. 

Mr. Nellis. What did they operate there? 

Mr. Moriarity. They had all kinds of park entertainment. They 
had, oh, rides of different kinds and everything of that kind. 

Mr. Nellis. Did they have any games? 

Mr. Moriarity. I don't know. I was there, let me make it plain. 
I was at the Brady Park Amusement Co. on the night it opened up. 
That must be 9 or possibly I would say 8 or 9, maybe 10 years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that near the Ravenna Arsenal? Is that the same 
place ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I think it was. It was down at the Brady Lake 
Amusement Co. was it — ; — 

Mr. Nellis. Portage 



Mr. Moriarity. Portage County. 

Mr. Nellis. Portage County. 

Mr. Moriarity. How close it is to the Arsenal, I don't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear that in 1948 they had quite a large 
number of slot machines? 

Mr. Moriarity. I heard that; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you investigate ? 

Mr. Moriarity. What? 

Mr. Nellis. Did you investigate ? 

Mr. Moriarity. No, I didn't, no. 

Mr. Nellis. You were their statutory agent? 

Mr. Moriarity. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you an incorporator ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I was. 

Mr. Nellis. Was the land owned by one Henry Seltzer? Do you 
recall that ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I think it was and then I believe it was turned over 
to the corporation. I am not sure of that. 

Mr. Nellis. All right. Who were the incorporators in that ven- 
ture? 

Mr. Moriarity. I don't think I can remember that. If you have it 
you could refresh 

Mr. Nellis. One of your partners perhaps ? 

Mr. Moriarity. No, I had no partners. 

Mr. Nellis. Ralph Vince? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 179 

Mr. Moriaritt. He was only an office associate. He was in the 
office. I think maybe the girls in the office generally 

Mr. Nellis. He was one of the incorporators ? 

Mr. Moriaritt. It might be. 

Mr. Nellis. Francis Duffy ? 

Mr. Moriaritt. He used to be in the office. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever received any income from any illegal 
enterprise ? 

Mr. Moriaritt. I have not. I never had any interest, not even the 
smallest fraction of interest in any illegal enterprise. Let me make 
that statement right now. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever represented any other gambling casinos 
besides the Mounds Club ? 

Mr. Moriaritt. Yes, I did. Back — this was purely in a legal way, 
what was it, Arrow Club at one time ? 

Mr. Nellis. What was that, sir? 

Mr. Moriaritt. Was I believe the predecessor to the so-called Petti- 
bone Club. 

Mr. Nellis. You never represented the Pettibone Club? 

Mr. Moriaritt. I have not, and my activities in connection with 
representing the Arrow Club I think I handled — they had three or 
four, maybe a half dozen, I wouldn't say, losses that came into the 
courts. They called me and asked me to defend them. 

On top of that, I can't remember exactly the time but it was maybe 
9 or 10 years ago they had cars going out to the club. This was before 
the war, as I remember it. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were the partners in the Arrow Club ? 

Mr. Moriaritt. I don't know, I don't know. They sent me this 
business. They had a bad accident and one of the drivers, he was 
indicted for manslaughter, and there were quite a number of per- 
sonal 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever defend the club against any suits 
brought by people who lost money there gambling ? 

Mr. Moriaritt. I think I had about maybe 6 or 8, maybe 6, 1 would 
say that, and I think — I never went in to defend any of them, now. 
They were settled out or dismissed. I don't remember at any time 
of ever appearing as counsel in any of our courts here as represent- 
ing them. 

Mr. Nellis. That is all I have. 

Mr. Moriaritt. I did handle and settle some of them. 

Mr. Nellis. That is all I have. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley? 

Mr. Hallet. No questions. 

Mr. Moriaritt. Let me ask, Senator, so — may I say something 
here at this time ? 

Mr. Nellis just asked me a question and it was with relation to 
any interest that I ever had in any gambling enterprise. 

Now, the Cleveland newspapers here have gone out of their way 
a couple — on several occasions to point to some music companies that 
I had, I believe, something like a sixteenth or an eighteenth or one- 
twentieth interest in. These were organized, and they were 

The Chairman. That was Melody Music Co. and Modern Music Co. ? 

Mr. Moriaritt. That's right, and I want to say here to this com- 
mittee that if there were any slot machines there — I think I was in 



180 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

ono company, and I never knew at any time that there were any 
slot machines. 

If I wanted to go in and get an investment in a slot machine, I 
wouldn't have to go out to Denver or out to Colorado Springs to get it. 
I did have, I think, a one-twentieth interest. I believe that was it. 
It cost a thousand dollars ; and I wound up, I think, losing the bigger 
portion of it. 

Mr. Nellis. You represented places where there were slot machines 
in use ; haven't you ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I have ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And other gambling devices ; isn't that right ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Yes. I have represented some places. 

Mr. Nellis. Dice tables ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Craps? 

Mr. Moriarity. That's true. 

Mr. Nellis. Same thing; isn't it? 

Mr. Moriarity. Dice and craps ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Moriarity. Yes; I guess it is. It all depends on how you 
shoot them. 

Mr. Nellis. Chuck-a-luck. 

Mr. Moriarity. I think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Roulette? 

Mr. Moriarity. I believe so. 

Mr. Nellis. Horse boards, betting information from all the tracks ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I don't know anything about the horse boards. I 
never had any luck on the horses, myself. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moriarity, did you represent the Melody 
Music Co. ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Did I represent them? 

The Chairman. Yes, as an attorney. 

Mr. Moriarity. No ; I did not, Senator. 

The Chairman. Never at any time ? 

Mr. Moriarity. They were out in — what they were, as it was repre- 
sented to me, they were routes, so-called routes that had music boxes. 
They were recording machines. They were particularly popular at 
the time that we brought into the thing or made this — that the 
syndicate organized, because they were out there in the vicinity of 
places where they had Army camps and that. The boys had no place 
to go. 

They put these into the restaurants and into the cafes, and things 
of that kind. 

The Chairman. It did turn out that they did have a good many 
slot machines. 

Mr. Moriarity. I don't know ; not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. Its inventory file showed that, I think: didn't it? 

Mr. Moriarity. I am confused myself on that. Now, Mr. Weisen- 
berg had some slot machines here, and when he died he had a part of 
one of these music companies. Whether it was the same one that I 
was in, I don't know, and when he died his estate, or whatever interest 
he had in one or two, whatever the number of these music companies 
he had, went to his son. 



ORGANIZED CRLME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 181 

I never paid— I understand that later there was a purchase back 
from the Weisenberg estate by some of the partners. I didn't partici- 
pate in that because I never put up a dime outside of the original 
eight or nine thousand dollars that I put in. 

The Chairman. When did you stop representing the Arrow Club ? 
When it became the Pettibone Club ? 

Mr. Moriarity. The Arrow Club closed during the course of the 
war, and after that there was some reorganization and that ended 
that. I never represented them after that. 

That must have been 8 or 9 years ago. 

The Chairman. Who employed you to represent the Arrow Club, 
Mr. Moriarity ? 

Mr. Moriarity. You mean to take care of these lawsuits? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Moriarity. I am not sure whether it was Mr. Gaylord — he was 
in there — or whether it was a Mr. Ward. I am not sure. 

The Chairman. It would be one or the other of them ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I think so. 

The Chairman. For how long a period of years did you represent 
the Arrow Club? 

Mr. Moriarity. Oh, I wouldn't say that these lawsuits and this stuff 
took much more than 2 or 3 years, Senator. Of course, down here 
in our courts these lawsuits sometimes pend for 2 or 3 years, and when 
they were filed and an answer was filed, it might have extended over 
that period of time before they were reached or got out of the way 
or settled. 

The Chairman. Did you go out to Nevada to the opening of the 
Desert Inn? 

Mr. Moriarity. I didn't have that pleasure. 

The Chairman. You weren't there? 

Mr. Moriarity. No ; I was not. I have never been out there. 

The Chairman. You have never been out to the Desert Inn ? 

Mr. Moriarity. No. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

Mr. Nellis. Nothing else. 

Mr. Moriarity. Is Mr. McGinty to be the next witness ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, he is. 

Mr. Moriarity. May I stay because I am going to represent him? 

The Chairman. Sure. 

All right. Let's get Mr. McGinty in. 

Mr. McGinty, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I do. 

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS J. McGINTY, CLEVELAND, OHIO., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY RICHARD J. MORIARITY, ATTORNEY, CLEVELAND, 
OHIO 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you state your name, please ? 

Mr. McGinty. Thomas McGinty. 

Mr. Nellis. Is it Thomas J.? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 



182 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Where do you live ? 

Mr. McGinty. 18200 South Park Boulevard. 

The Chairman. Mr. McGinty, you will have to speak up a little 
louder. I can't quite hear you. What was that address? 

Mr. McGinty. 18200 South Park Boulevard. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Let the record show that Mr. Richard Moriarity is appearing as 
Mr. McGinty's attorney. 

All right, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you ever arrested, Mr. McGinty ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes; I was. 

Mr. Nellis. In connection with what? 

Mr. McGinty. Prohibition. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you serve any time ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. How much? 

Mr. McGinty. Six months. 

Mr. Nellis. That was in connection with a conspiracy to violate 
the National Prohibition Act? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you a partner in the Mounds Club ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who else was in that with you ? 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Jones. 

Mr. Nellis. Cornelius Jones ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you a partner in the Beverly Hills Country Club? 

Mr. McGinty. I had a very small interest. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was in that with you? 

Mr. McGinty. I couldn't tell you everyone that was in there. 

The Chairman. Everyone ? 

Mr. McGinty. I couldn't tell you. 

The Chairman. Oh. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you get into it, Mr. McGinty ? 

The Chairman. Let's read some names and see if he knows them. 

Mr. McGinty. From Mr. Tucker. 

Mr. Nellis. Sam Tucker? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Samuel Tucker was a partner there? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Moe Dalitz ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Louis Rothkopf? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Morris Kleinman? 

Mr. McGinty. To my knowledge, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Charles Polizzi ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever meet him ? 

Mr. McGinty. Charles Polizzi ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. McGinty. Charles 

Mr. Nellis. Charles (Chuck) Polizzi? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I met him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 183 

The Chairman. "Was he one of your associates in that clufo ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know who was in there. 

Mr. Nellis. Your testimony is you don't know any of these people ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know who the partners were in there. 

The Chairman. Are these you testified about, do you know whether 
they were partners or not? 

Mr. McGinty. I couldn't say for sure. 

Mr. Nellis. How about John Croft? Do you know him? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. He was a partner in that ; was he not ? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't know for sure. 

Mr. Nellis. Harry Potter ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know him. 

Mr. Nellis. Mitchell Myer ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know him. 

Mr. Nellis. Samuel Schraeder ? 

Mr. McGinty. I met Mr. Schraeder once. 

Mr. Nellis. Marion Brink? 

Mr. McGinty. Don't know her. 

Mr. Nellis. Jimmy Brink ? 

Mr. McGinty. Don't know him. 

Mr. Nellis. Is it your testimony you were in business with these 
people and didn't know any of them ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, were you a partner in the Lookout House, Mr. 
McGinty ? 

Mr. McGinty. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You were not? Are you a partner in the Desert Inn 
at Las Vegas, Nev. ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Who with ? 

Mr. McGinty. Wilbur Clark, Mr. Dalitz, Mr. Kleinman, Mr. 
Tucker. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, when did you open the Mounds Club ? 

Mr. McGinty. About 16 years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of place was it ? 

Mr. McGinty. I thought it was a nice place. 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me? 

Mr. McGinty. What kind of place was it ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. Describe it. 

The Chairman. A big place, a little place ? 

Mr. McGinty. A small place, seat about 200. 

Mr. Nellis. And you had gambling there; is that right ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I object to that question. 

The Chairman. Well, then, tell what the operation there was. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you have there ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I was interested in the performers, the stars. 
I hired all them. And the dining room. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you speak up, Mr. McGinty? I can barely 
hear you. 

Mr. McGinty. I said that I hired the performers, the entertainers, 
and in charge of the dining room. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have anything to do with the gambling there ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I object to that, Senator. 



184 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Your objection is overruled. 

Mr. Moriarity. Then I say this : My objection chiefly to that is that 
the operation of the Mounds Club was a local affair, having nothing 
to do in any way, shape, or form with anything involved in interstate 
commerce ; and, as such, I am objecting upon that ground. 

The Chairman. Well, I think the proof shows that there are some 
people in the Mounds Club operating in other places, too, outside of 
the State of Ohio. 

Mr. Moriarity. I am perfectly willing for him to answer that ques- 
tion; but, if the objection is overruled, I am going to advise Mr. Mc- 
Ginty that he has the right, on constitutional grounds, to refuse to 
answer if he so desires. 

The Chairman. All right. The question was whether, among other 
operations of the Mounds Club, there were some types of gambling \ 

Mr. McGinty. I am going to stand on my constitutional rights. 

The Chairman. I will direct you to answer the question, Mr. Mc- 
Ginty. 

Mr. Moriarity. Refuse to answer. 

Mr. MoGinty. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Nellis. Did they have games of all kinds at the Mounds Club ? 

Mr. McGinty. Keno. 

Mr. Nellis. What else ? 

Mr. Moriarity. I object. Refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have an objection, Mr. Moriarity ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Pardon me. Yes, I object. 

Mr. Nellis. Upon what grounds ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Upon the same grounds, constitutional grounds. 

The Chairman. The question was, They have games of Keno and 
what other type of game ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Well, my objection, Senator, if I may, is upon the 
same ground that it is not involved in interstate commerce. 

Mr. Nellis. Do they have slot machines there ? 

The Chairman. All right. I direct the witness to answer the 
question. 

Mr. McGinty. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Nellis. Do they have slot machines there ? 

Mr. McGinty. I stand on my constitutional rights. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer that, too. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have dice tables there, too ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. Do you refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Nellis. I am sorry. 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, Senator. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you in the Pettibone Club ? 

Mr. McGinty. Lately ? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, when? Starting when? 

Mr. McGinty. Oh, I wasn't in 

Mr. Moriarity. Well, wait, Mr. Nellis 

Mi-. Nellts. When did you have an interest in the Pettibone Club? 
Beginning when? 

Mr. McGinty. Oh, it must be 10 years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. About 1941; is that right? 

Mr. McGinty. Something like that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 185 

Mr. Nellis. And you maintain your interest there? 

Mr. McGinty. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you give it up ? 

Mr. McGinty. About 6 or 7 years ago, when it was closed. 

Mr. Nellis. When it was closed ?. 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were your partners in the club? 

Mr. McGinty. When I was in there ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Gaylord and Mr. Ward. That is all I re- 
member. It is so long ago. 

Mr. Nellis. You are a partner in the Desert Inn ; is that right? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. And when did you go into that ? 

Mr. McGinty. Last April or May. 

Mr. Nellis. How much money did you put into it ? 

Mr. McGinty. $150,000. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that all in cash ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you pay it over, and to wdiom ? 

Mr. McGinty. To the bookkeeper. 

Mr. Nellis. Whose bookkeeper ? 

Mr. McGinty. The bookkeeper at the Desert Inn. 

Mr. Nellis. And you gave it to him in cash, you say ? 

Mr. McGinty. Checks and cash. 

Mr. Nellis. Checks and cash. 

Now, aren't all these enterprises we have been talking about 
gambling casinos ? Are they all gambling casinos ? 

Mr. McGinty. Oh 

Mr. Nellis. Well, aren't they % 

Mr. McGinty. I'll say the Desert Inn is. 

Mr. Nellis. You say the Desert Inn is, but the others aren't or 
weren't ? Is that your testimony ? 

Mr. McGinty. No, I won't say that. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, what is your testimony ? 

Mr. McGinty. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. You have already discussed each one of them 
separately. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, do you know Fred W. Ridge, of Route 1, Chagrin 
Falls, Ohio? 

Mr. McGinty. I have heard that name. 

Mr. Nellis. And in what connection did you hear it? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know. I think he was a trustee or something. 

Mr. Nellis. Of Bainbridge; isn't that right? 

Mr. McGixty. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. And at one time he was a clerk of Bainbridge? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you recall a time when you called Mr. Ridge into 
your office here in Cleveland? 

Mr. McGinty. No, I don't. 

Mr. Nellis. Early in the year of 1948 ? 

Mr. McGinty. No, I don't, 

Mr. Nellis. Did you call Mr. Ridge on the telephone, and identify 
yourself as Thomas J. McGinty? 



186 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McGinty. I may have. I am not sure. 

Mr. Nellis. And did you direct him to come to your office in the 
NBC Building in Cleveland, Ohio ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Does that refresh your recollection? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know, if that is so or not. 

Mr. Nellis. And did Mr. Ridge come in that afternoon, early in 
the year 1948, probably in the spring? And did your secretary 
announce 

The Chairman. Well, let's see whether he came in? Let's get the 
answer. 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I think he did come in. 

Mr. Nellis. He did come in ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. At that time. And you introduced yourself as Thomas 
J. McGinty to him and shook his hand, I suppose? 

Mr. McGinty. Maybe he done that to me; I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. But at any event, you met in y@ur office, didn't you ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And what did you say to him, if anything? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, didn't you say to him, you had a donation for the 
township? 

Mr. McGinty. I think that you are right, I think he asked me for 
a donation for the township, or one of them trustees. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you say? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you give him a donation ? 

Mr. McGinty. I might have. 

Mr. Nellis. How much was it, do you recall ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't recall. I had been giving donations out 
there for a long while. 

Mr. Nellis. I am talking about this specific time. Did you give 
him a donation at that time? 

Mr. McGinty. I may have. 

Mr. Nellis. In what amount ? 

Mr. McGinty. The exact amount I wouldn't be able to tell you. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't it $500 at that time? 

Mr. McGinty. It might have been. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that right ? 

Mr. Halley. In cash? 

Mr. McGinty. It might have been. 

Mr. Halley. It was in cash, wasn't it? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You remember handing a man $500, don't you? 

Mr. McGinty. I may. 

Mr. Halley. Did you do it? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know. If you say I did, I must have. He 
said I did. I gave him something. 

Mr. Halley. If lie said it. you wouldn't deny it? 

Mr. McGinty. No; I wouldn't. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you get any receipt from him for it? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't remember. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 187 

Mr. Nellis. Do you recall another incident shortly thereafter 
wherein he came back to your office ( 

Mr. McGinty. I think 

Mr. Nellis. You gave him another $500 or thereabouts? 

Mr. McGinty. I think that was for a donation for the volunteer fire 
department. 

Mr. Nellis. In cash ? 

Mr. McGinty. I think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you get a receipt for it ? 

Mr. McGinty. I think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, any other donations? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I think they came to me for a donation to see if 
I could use my influence to get them donations for some fire equip- 
ment, and I did. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did you give that time? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know, around $4,000 or $5,000. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't it $6,000 ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't think so. 

Mr. Nellis. By check ? 

Mr. McGinty. I forget. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't a man in your office at the time that Mr. Ridge 
came out to collect this $6,000 ? 

Mr. McGinty. I think there were a couple of them. I am not sure. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was there ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I don't 

Mr. Nellis. Was George Gordon there ? 

Mr. McGinty. He may have been. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you instruct Gordon to give Ridge a check for 
$6,000 ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. I asked him to. I didn't instruct him to, I 
asked him to. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he give it to him ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What was that for ? 

Mr. McGinty. That was for the fire department, volunteer fire 
department. 

Mr. Nellis. Then later some time that same year didn't Ridge come 
back again and get some more money in cash ? 

Mr. McGinty. I think he did, now that you refresh my memory. 
I think he did. It was for a tractor or something. 

Mr. Nellis. How much was that ? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't know for sure. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you give him $1,500 at that time for the tractor? 

Mr. McGinty. I may have. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you think they were going to do with all this 
money ? 

Mr. McGinty. For — to buy equipment for the fire department. 

Mr. Nellis. Why were you giving it ? 

Mr. McGinty. Because they asked me to. 

Mr. Nellis. Why did they ask you to ? 

Mr. McGinty. Because they needed it. I will tell you, I had a race 
track out there and I had quite a fire, and it burned a few barns down 

68958 — 51— pt. 6 13 



188 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

and it looked like I might have lost my grandstand and everything 
else, and I wanted always to help them. I have been helping them for 
15 years out there, 20 years. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact that you had the Pettibone Club out 
there, and in order to appease public opinion in the county you felt 
you had to make these donations to these people ? 

Mr. McGinty. No ; I didn't make them donations 

Mr. Nellis. How much money did you give them in all this time? 

The Chairman. Was the Pettibone Club in that county, in that 
section ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, Senator. 

The Chairman. This is Bainbridge, and what county is that ? 

Mr. McGinty. Geauga County. 

The Chairman. The Pettibone Club is how far from Bainbridge? 

Mr. McGinty. Oh, I don't know, maybe 7, 8, 10 miles. 

The Chairman. It is in that county ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

The Chairman. This was one of the county officials, the solicitor? 

Mr. McGinty. The clerk. 

The Chairman. The clerk of the county ? 

Mr. Nellis. How much money did you give him throughout this 
period, including the $6,000 check ? 

Mr. McGinty. Gee, I wouldn't be able to give you the exact amount. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't it $10,000 or thereabouts? 

Mr. McGinty. It might have been. 

Mr. Nellis. Easily ? 

Mr. McGinty. Whenever they come to me, I always try to get 
them what I could. 

Mr. Nellis. It could have been more, couldn't it ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you deduct it from your income-tax return? 

Mr. McGinty. I didn't give that, 

Mr. Nellis. Who gave it ? 

Mr. McGinty. The Pettibone Club. 

Mr. Nellis. You and your partners got together? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that right? 

Mr. McGinty. No; I am not in the Pettibone Club. I wasn't in 
the Pettibone Club. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't it part of your money that you were giving 
them ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You are sure? 

The Chairman. You said the Pettibone Club gave it? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that a corporation or partnership? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't know what it was. 

The Chairman. It was a partnership, I am informed. 

Mr. Nellis. Was George Gordon a partner in that? 

Mr. McGinty. I think he was. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. McGinty, you are a partner in the Beverly Hills 
Country Club; right? 

Mr. McGinty. Very small interest; yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 189 

Mr. Nellis. What do you call a small interest? 

Mr. McGinty. I was. Yes; I was a partner; I am not a partner 
now. 

Mr. Nellis. You are a partner in Lookout House? 

Mr. McGinty. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. I asked you that before. 

The Chairman. You weren't. Have you ever been a partner or 
had an interest in the Lookout House? 

Mr. McGintt. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is M. W. Shaffner? 

Mr. McGinty. He was the manager of the Mounds Club at one time. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he have an interest in it, a financial interest? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. How big? 

Mr. McGinty. About 20 percent of it. 

Mr. Nellts. How about the balance ? The 80 percent was split how ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I am pretty sure I had 80 percent. A fellow 
by the name of Jones had a piece of it, too. 

Mr. Nellis. You had the majority interest, didn't you? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the Dixie Inn at West Palm Beach, Fla.? 

Mr. McGinty. What is it ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. McGinty. I think it is a cafe today. 

Mr. Nellis. What was it before ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, it was a casino. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of a casino ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, where people could go and dance and see a 
show. 

Mr. Nellis. Any gambling there? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes; there were. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were your partners there ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, there was Mr. Jones and Mr. North. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is that? 

Mr. McGinty. North, James North. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is he from? 

Mr. McGinty. West Palm Beach. 

Mr. Nellis. Go ahead. 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Shaffner. 

Mr. Nellis. M. W. Shaffner? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who else? 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Jones. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes ; I heard that, one of your partners. 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who else? 

Mr. McGinty. That's all I remember. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't remember any others ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John O'Rourke ? 

Mr. McGinty. John O'Rourke? No. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the George Ralston and T. J. McGinty joint 
venture steamship Alabama? 



190 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McGinty. Well, he asked me to invest some money in it ; that's 
all. 

Mr. Nellis. What was it ? What kind of business was it ? 

Mr. McGinty. It was a boat leaving here for Cedar Point every day ? 

Mr. Nellis. Where is Cedar Point ? 

Mr. McGinty. It is about 60 miles from here. It is a resort. 

Mr. Nellis. Where would it go, Mr. McGinty ? 

Mr. McGinty. Go to Cedar Point and back. 

Mr. Nellis. From Cleveland? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. And what kind of a boat was it ? 

Mr. McGinty. Pleasure boat. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have gambling on it ? 

Mr. McGinty. I never seen any. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you on it ? 

Mr. McGinty. Never on it. 

The Chairman. Who is George Ralston ? 

Mr. McGinty. He was a broker. He was associated with Smith 
Davis. 

Mr. Moriarty. Could I explain that, Senator? 

The Chairman. Well, we would rather the witness would testify, 
but maybe you can amplify it. 

Mr. Moriarty. There were four interests in it, the first, Cleveland 
Corp., of Cleveland, Ohio, here. They had one-quarter. Smith Davis 
was in the newspaper business or something. He wasn't in the pub- 
lishing end of it. I think he dealt 

Mr. Halley. Broker of newspapers and radio stations. 

Mr. Moriarity. I think that's right. 

Mr. Halley. Newspapers and radio. 

Mr. Moriarty. Mr. Ralston and Mr. McGinty, they were the four, 
and each had a quarter interest. Mr. McGinty, I might say, had one- 
half of Mr. Ralston's 50 percent. That was it. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Al Smiley ? 

Mr. McGinty. Never heard of him. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever make any telephone calls to him? 

Mr. McGinty. Never. 

Mr. Nellis. Mickey Cohen? 

Mr. McGinty. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Ruby Kolod ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I know Ruby Kolod. 

Mr. Nellis. Was he ever engaged in business with you? 

Mr. McGinty. I think he worked at the Pettibone. 

Mr. Nellis. He worked for you, didn't he? 

Mr. McGinty. At one time. Not for me. 

Mr. Nellis. What was his job there? 

Mr. McGinty. I forget. I don't even know. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't he a dealer there? 

Mr. McGinty. He may have been. 

Mr. Nellis. Manager of one of the crap tables? 

Mr. McGinty. He might have been. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, he was, wasn't he? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't know for sure. 

Mr. Nlllts. Do yon know Herman Greenspan? 

Mr. McGinty. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 191 

Mr. Nellis. Never heard of Herman Greenspan ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Allard Rohn? 

Mr. McGinty. Allard Rohn. He is at the Desert Inn. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is he from? 

Mr. McGinty. I think he is from Cleveland originally. 

Mr. Nellis. How did he get into the Desert Inn ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Yon are in that venture, aren't you? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you get together on that, Mr. McGinty? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, he was there before I come there. 

Mr. Nellis. Who got yon into it ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, Wilbur Clark originally. 

Mr. Nellis. You must know Morris Kleinman, don't you? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Nellis. You know Dalitz, don't you ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Nellis. You know Rothkopf I 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Nellis. And they are all in the same business you are in, aren't 
they ? 

Mr. McGinty. I think so. 

Mr. Nellis. They are all gamblers, aren't they? 

Mr. McGinty. I think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Why did you say your portion of Beverly Hills was 
small ? Did you say that ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Nellis. In 1949 you got nearly $20,000 out of it, didn't you? 

Mr. McGinty. I may have. 

Mr. Nellis. You call that small? Is that small, Mr. McGinty? 

Mr. McGinty. No ; I don't think so. 

The Chairman. Anyway, that speaks for itself. It is pretty big to' 
me. It may be small to you, Mr. McGinty. 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't say so, Senator. 

Mr. Nellis. We have some records on income tax, Mr. McGinty. 
What is your income, about? Let's take 1949. What was your in- 
come that year? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, my attorney handled that. I forget just what 
it was. 

The Chairman. Well, approximatelv, Mr. McGinty. 

Mr. McGinty. Well, maybe $40,000, $50,000. 

Mr. Nellis. $40,000 or $50,000? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And yet you call this portion small, nearly half of it ? 

Mr. McGinty. I didn't say it was small. I says I had a small inter- 
est. You were the one that says for $20,000 you wouldn't think it 
very small. 

Mr. Nellis. What do you call a small interest ? 

Mr. McGinty. My interest was only about 6 percent. 

Mr. Nellis. Of the total. It was a pretty profitable venture, though, 
wasn't it? 

Mr. McGinty. I would think so. 



192 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. If a 6-percent interest can return $20,000. 

Mr. McGintt. That's what you said I got. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact, and don't you know of your own 
knowledge, that Beverly had gross receipts of $528,000 plus in 1949 ? 
At least, that is what they reported. 

The Chairman. If he had 6 percent and he got $20,000, that would 
be about $300,000 profit for the operation, the way I figure it. Is that 
about right? 

Mr. McGinty. That's about right, according to them figures. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you involved in any other gambling casinos any- 
where else, Mr. McGinty, that we have not talked about ? 

Mr. McGinty. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Ever been ? 

Mr. McGinty. No, in the last 15, 18 years. 

Mr. Nellis. Prior to that, 15, 18 years ago, what were you in ? 

Mr. McGinty. I might have been interested in a place in Florida. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the name of the place ? 

Mr. McGinty. Carter's. 

Mr. Nellis. Carter's ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were your partners there ? 

Mr. McGinty. George Carter. 

Mr. Nellis. Where was he from ? 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Bleet — from Miami Beach. 

Mr. Nellis. Go ahead, sir. 

Mr. McGinty. That's all I remember ; it is so long ago. 

Mr. Nellis. You just said another name. You said Mr. Bleet ? 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Bleet; yes. 

The Chairman. How do you spell that ? 

Mr. McGinty. B-1-e-e-t. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is he from? 

Mr. McGinty. Here. 

Mr. Nellis. From Cleveland? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. He is dead now. 

Mr. Nellis. Who else ? 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Schwartz. 

Mr. Nellis. William Schwartz? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Whom you heard was in the Colony Club? 

Mr. McGinty. I guess that is the one. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know he was in the Colony Club? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Nellis. But you were in business with him in Florida 18 years 
ago, is that right ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that a profitable business ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; it was. 

Mr. Nellis. Is this the same Mr. Schwartz that killed his bodyguard 
and was sent to the penitentiary? 

Mr. McGinty. I guess it is. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Shimmy Patton ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been in business with him ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 193 

Mr. McGinty. No, I haven't. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't he down there with Schwartz in the Colony 
Club? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you ever there ? 

Mr. McGinty. Never. 

Mr. Nellis. Never in your life? 

Mr. McGinty. Never. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no questions at this time. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley? 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any business other than gambling 
businesses ? 

]\lr. McGinty. Well, real estate. I own a little real estate. 

Mr. Halley. When you say real estate, do you mean that you have 
invested some of your profits from the gambling business in real 
estate ? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any other businesses ? 

Mr. McGinty. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Halley. Going way back to 1925, then apparently you had a 
bootlegging business, is that right? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

I was in the racing business, too. 

Mr. Halley. When were you in the racing business ? 

Mr. McGinty. Right at that time. 

Mr. Halley. Do you mean you ran horses or you rode them, or 
what did you do ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. I run race tracks. 

Mr. Halley. You ran race tracks ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What tracks did you run ? 

Mr. McGinty. Maple Heights. 

Mr. Halley. Where is that? 

Mr. McGinty. Cleveland here. 

Mr. Halley. Any other track? 

Mr. McGinty. Brooklyn. 

Mr. Halley. Where is that ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is a suburb of here. 

Chargrin Falls ; Bainbridge Park. 

Mr. Halley. During what years did you run the race tracks? 

Mr. McGinty. That was from 1925 to 1926 on. 

Mr. Halley. Up to what time? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, up until (to Mr. Moriarity) When was it 

legalized? 

Mr. Moriarity. Can I answer that? 

Mr. Halley. You can refresh his memory. 

Mr. Moriarity. 1935. 

Mr. Halley. You mean you quit when it became legalized ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. We run after that, and the depression come on. 

Mr. Halley. I thought that is what you said. 

Mr. McGinty. And there was other tracks here built, and, of course, 
we were so far out it didn't help business any. 

Mr. Halley. I mean, when you were running: the tracks, it wasn't 
legal, is that right? 



194 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McGinty. I run tracks when it wasn't legal, that's right. 

Mr. Halley. And it became legalized in 1935 ( 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And you went out when ? 

Mr. McGinty. We\vent out about 1938. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any other businesses ? 

Mr. McGinty. I was in the boxing business. 

Mr. Halley. Did you fight or manager or promote ? 

Mr. McGinty. I done it all. 

Mr. Halley. You did it all? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In what years? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, around in through the thirties. I used to run 
all the shows here. 

Mr. Halley. You ran the boxing shows here ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. Champion 

Mr. Halley. Up to what year ? 

Mr. McGinty. Up until about 15 years ago. 

Mr. Halley. Why did you go out of the boxing business ? Did that 
become legal? I shouldn't joke about it. 

Why did you go out of the boxing business ? 

Mr. McGinty. I got tired of it. 

Mr. Halley. Were you a promoter ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, I was a promoter and a manager. 

The Chairman. Were you a fighter, too? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Heavyweight? 

Mr. McGinty. No. I was a featherweight. 

Mr. Halley. In what years did you fight ? 

Mr. Moriarity. As Mr. McGinty said : He fought one night and got 
knocked down and he came up as a manager. 

Mr. McGinty. I managed a lot of good boys. 

Mr. Halley. But you have been out of the fight game now for about 
15 years ? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And since about 1938, have you had any other busi- 
nesses but the gambling business ? 

Mr. McGinty. Real-estate investments. 

Mr. Halley. What are the real-estate investments you have ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I have got some property in Florida. I got a 
sixth of four or five lots there. 

I got 25 percent of another piece of property. 

Mr. Halley. Who are your partners in Florida ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I think Mr. Strong, Strong Estates, had one- 
sixth of it. 

A fellow by the name of Kay has 50 percent. 

Mr. Halley. Is that the same Kay who was in the wire service here ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. Which Kay is it? 

Mr. McGinty. Sam Kay. 

Mr. Halley. Sam Kay ? 

Mr. McGinty. Sam Kay ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. He is a gambler in New York, isn't he? 

Mr. McGinty. No, he is not. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 195 

Mr. Halley. Well, that is a common name. 
Who else are your partners ? 
Mr. McGinty. That is all. 

I think Mr. Haas has got a piece of the Strong Estates there. 
Mr. Halley. You mean the lawyer ? 
Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. He is in on this Florida deal with you ? 
Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. What other real-estate ventures have you got? 
Mr. McGinty. I own the Hickory House there, or the lease on it in 
Miami. 

Mr. Halley. You own the property on which the Hickory House is 



run 



Mr. McGinty. Yes ; 99-year lease. 

Mr. Halley. When did you get that ? 

Mr. McGinty. I have that for a long while. 

Mr. Halley. About how long ? 

Mr. McGinty. About 20 years. 

Mr. Halley. What other real estate have you ? 

Mr. McGinty. Bainbridge race track. 

Mr. Halley. Bainbridge race track ? 

Mr. MoGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where is that located? 

Mr. McGinty. Right outside of Cleveland here. 

Mr. Halley. You still have that ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you operate it or just own the track? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, we have stock-car racing, automobile racing, 
rodeo. 

Mr. Moriarity. Can I refresh 

Mr. Halley. You can refresh his recollection. It is all right. 

Mr. Moriarity. Those are the things I take care of and possibly have 
more intimate knowledge of than Mr. McGinty. 

Mr. Halley. We generally can distinguish between trying to help 
the witness and trying to impede us, and we figure you are trying to 
help. 

Mr. Moriarity. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You have stock-car racing at the Bainbridge track? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Anything else ? 

Mr. McGinty. Rodeos. The village puts rodeo shows on there. 

Mr. Halley. You actually operate the track ? 

Mr. McGinty. No, I don't, I lease it. 

Mr. Halley. You lease it to others? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any partners in the Bainbridge track? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who are they? 

Mr. McGinty. Colonel Eddy. 

Mr. Halley. Colonel Eddy? 

Mr. McGinty. Robert S. Eddy ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Any others? 

Mr. McGinty. That is all. 



196 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. I think you testified that you invested $150,000 in the 
Desert Inn ? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. How did you happen to make your investment in the 
Desert Inn ? Will you describe the transaction, how it came to you ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, Wilbur Clark showed me how much he had 
invested there already. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Wilbur Clark? 

Mr. McGinty. I have only known him a couple of years. Well, I 
only know him 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. How did you happen to discuss the Desert Inn with 
him ? 

Mr. McGinty. He came here and talked to me. 

Mr. Halley. Was he looking for an investment ? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Did he come to you or one of the other investors ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, he may have come to the other investors before, 
I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. So, as far as you know, he came directly to you, in 
any event ? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Was it you who went to the others ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. There are other Cleveland people in it, are there not? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Kleinman is in it ? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And Dalitz ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who else from Cleveland ? 

Mr. McGinty. Tucker. 

Mr. Halley. Tucker. Anyone else ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is all. 
. Mr. Halley. Did you go to them with the deal ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. Clark came. 

Mr. Halley. Did he go to each one separately ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, I think he did. 

Mr. Halley. What deal did you finally work out ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, we finally worked out that he was to get, I 
think, 26 or 27 percent. 

Mr. Halley. And the four of you were to split the rest ? 

Mr. McGinty. I guess that is how it was. 

Mr. Halley. Are you partners ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you actually sit down and discuss it with Tucker 
and Dalitz and Kleinman? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, we talked it over. 

Mr. Halley. Did you each put up an equal amount ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I don't know for sure. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you must know what your partners put in. 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you put in more or less than the others ? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't be able to sav. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 197 

Mr. Halley. What was the total investment made by the Cleveland 
group ? 

Mr. McGinty. About $800,000. 

Mr. Halley. Then some of them would have to im-est more than 
you did ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I think so. 

Mr. Halley. I believe Clark told us it was about a million and a 
half that was put in by the Cleveland group. Would that be wrong, 
or could it have been that high ? 

Mr. McGinty. It could have been that high. I could have borrowed 
quite a bit of it. 

Mr. Halley. Is your interest in proportion to the amount you put 
in? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, we haven't decided about the proportions as 
yet. 

Mr. Halley. Haven't you any written agreement ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. It is all done on an informal basis ? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. What do you have to show for your investment; 
receipts for anything? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. I got a receipt. 

Mr. Halley. How much of your investment was in actual cash as 
contrasted to checks ? 

Mr. McGinty. Maybe — mine? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McGinty. About $25,000. 

Mr. Halley. In cash ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And the rest in checks ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Your own personal checks ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. Was it your money you invested ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. I borrowed some of it. 

Mr. Halley. You borrowed some of it ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. From whom did you borrow ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I bororwed from Harry Bernstein. 

Mr. Halley. Who is he? 

Mr. McGinty. He is with Loew's Theaters. 

Mr. Halley. How much did he lend you ? 

Mr. McGinty. $25,000. 

Mr. Halley. From who else did you borrow ? 

Mr. McGinty. I borrowed from Max Marmorstein. 

Mr. Halley. Who is he? 

Mr. McGinty. He is in the real-estate business. 

Mr. Halley. Where? 

Mr. McGinty. Cleveland. 

Mr. Halley. How much did he lend you ? 

Mr. McGinty. $25,000. 

Mr. Hali^ey. From whom else did you borrow ? 

Mr. Mortarity. Herman Kohen. 

Mr. McGinty. Herman Kohen. 



198 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. And is he in Cleveland, too ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. Where is he ? 

Mr. McGinty. In Miami. 

Mr. Halley. And what business is he in there ? 

Mr. McGinty. He is an attorney. 

Mr. Halley. And how much did he put in ? 

Mr. McGinty. $25,000. 

Mr. Moeiarity. Pardon me. Loaned 

Mr. McGinty. He loaned me that. 

The Chairman. Herman Kohen ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

The Chairman. Miami or Miami Beach ? 

Mr. McGinty. Miami Beach. This is a different Kohen entirely. 

The Chairman. Do you know Ben? 

Mr. McGinty. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Moriarity. This is K-o-h-e-n, if I may. He used to be city 
councilman here ; is now a practicing attorney in Miami Beach. 

Mr. Halley. Now, did you borrow money from anybody else ? 

Mr. McGinty. Not that I know. 

Mr. Halley. Well, we haven't made up $150,000. 

Mr. McGinty. M. J. Burnette I got $150,000 from. 

Mr. Halley. M. J. Burnette ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who is he? 

Mr. McGinty. In the railroad supply business. 

Mr. Halley. Where? 

Mr. McGinty. Cleveland. 

Mr. Halley. Now, did they have a participation in your interest ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. Or did they just lend you the money ? 

Mr. McGinty. Just lent me the money. 

Mr. Halley. On what collateral? 

Mr. McGinty. No collateral. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how do you induce these businessmen to lend 
you money for you to engage in a gambling venture without any 
collateral ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, they just took my note. 

Mr. Halley. What is your net worth ? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't be able to say right now. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say it is in excess of $100,000 ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. * 

Mr. Halley. Is it in excess of, say, a half million dollars? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say it is over $200,000? 

Mr. McGinty. It is about that. 

Mr. Halley. About $200,000? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What is the total value of your real estate? How 
much of your $200,000 would you say represents the value of your 
real-estate holdings. 

Mr. McGiNnr. I wouldn't be able to tell you that. 

Mr. Halley. Well, do you have a lot of money in cash ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199 

Mr. Halley. You say you put $25,000 in the form of currency? 

Mr. McGinty. I think mine was cash, or a check, too. 

Mr. Halley. Yours was a check, too ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what was the currency you are talking about 
that you put up? 

Mr. McGinty. I forget. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you testified a little while ago it was $25,000. 

Mr. McGinty. I think you mixed me up there a little. 

Mr. Halley. I am awfully sorry I mixed you up, Mr. McGinty. 
I don't remember trying to. 

I am just trying to find out how you have operated all your life y 
and what kind of business you are in, and have been in, and what your 
methods of doing business are. 

Now, did Mr. Nell is mix you up, too, when you told him part of 
your investment in the Desert Inn was in cash ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know. I forget what I told Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Halley. Well, I sort of think I remember you told him you 
jmt some cash in ? 

Mr. McGinty. It is about that. 

Mr. Halley. About what \ $25,000? 

Mi-. McGinty. About $25,000. 

Mr. Halley. Then your whole investment was cash ? 

Mr. McGinty. No, I put in a check, too. 

Mr. Halley. Well, the checks were what you got from the people 
who loaned you money? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. The part that was your own was cash ? 

Mr. McGinty. No ; I put in a check, too. 

Mr. Halley. For how much ? 

Mr. McGinty. I think about $25,000. 

Mr. Halley. Well, now, you are up to $175,000, then ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well 

Mr. Halley. What was your investment ? 

Mr. McGinty. About that. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you know, this is really serious business, and 
there are $25,000 more or less ; it makes a difference, to this committee. 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any record of your investment in the 
Desert Inn ? 

Mr. McGinty. No; it is all out there. 

Mr. Halley. Well, suppose when you get out there yourself, and 
you sit down with your partners to find out how much of the Desert 
Inn you own — because you said you still don't know — they say you 
only put $10,000 in, what have you got to show you put more in? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I haven't anything. 

Mr. Halley. You mean you are working 

Mr. McGinty. Only them checks. 

Mr. Halley. You mean you are working on your honor among each 
other ? 

Mr. McGinty. Mostly. 

Mr. Halley. And your ability to do business together? 

Mr. McGinty. No; there is a record of everything I put in. 



200 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. So, you would say you put in $25,000 as a check of 
your own? 

Mr. McGintt. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And $25,000 in currency ; is that right ? 

Mr. McGinty. I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you must remember a big transaction like that, 
Mr. McGinty. Consult with your attorney. He seems to be able 
to 

Mr. Moriarity. Do you want the answer from me, Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. Well, refresh your client's memory. 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on. We are very far behind 
schedule here. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have the answer now ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. It was a check. 

Mr. Halley. It was a check. No cash whatsoever ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You are quite sure you put no currency into it ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right, 

Mr. Halley. How much cash are you worth today ? Do you have 
any cash assets today ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In excess of $25,000? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you keep any of that in the form of currency? 

Mr. McGinty. In the bank. 

Mr. Halley. Do you keep any currency in a box anywhere? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. No currency whatsoever? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. All your cash is in a bank ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where do you bank? 

Mr. McGinty. The Central United National. 

Mr. Halley. And where is that? 

Mr. McGinty. West Twenty-fifth. 

Mr. Halley. In Cleveland? 

Mr. McGinty. And Lorain, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any other bank account ? 

Mr. McGinty. National City. 

Mr. Halley. Here in Cleveland? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And any bank accounts in Florida ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. You do not habitually carry large sums of cash on you? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. Or keep them anywhere in a box ? 

Mr. McGinty. Not now. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say that you accumulated the assets that 
\ou now have in the various gambling games, operations that you have 
had all through your life? 

Mr. McGinty. Will you ask me that again, please? 

Mr. Halley. Have you accumulated your net worth as a result of 
yonr gambling operations? 

Mr. McGinty. In business, yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 201 

Mr. H alley. Well, in business? What kind of business? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, the boxing business and the racing business, 
and real estate business, and the gambling business. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how much of it would you say you accumulated 
in the real-estate business? 

Mr. McGinty. Oh, I just don't know. I haven't got the figures 
here. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had successful transactions involving par- 
ticular pieces of property? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Turned them over at a profit ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Can you relate one such instance? 

Mr. Moriarity. Two of them last year. 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I had two last year. 

Mr. Halley. What was the total profit from those two ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, approximately $40,000 in one and 

Mr. Moriarity. And $50,000 or $60,000 in the other. 

Mr. McGinty. And $50,000 or $60,000 in the other. 

Mr. Halley. And when did you purchase those properties? 

Mr. McGinty. I beg pardon ? 

Mr. Halley. When did you purchase those properties? 

Mr. McGinty. Oh, a couple of years before. 

Mr. Halley. Just 2 or 3 years previous ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You are now referring, then, to a net gain of $100,000 
in addition to the income you have been telling us about? Is that 
right ? Is that a capital gain in addition to your income ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Is some testimony going to come out of that last 
conference ? 

Mr. Moriarity. Do you want it from me, Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. I'd rather have it from him. 

Mr. Moriarity. O. K. 

Mr. Halley. You see, we are just trying to get a picture of Mr. 
McGinty's operations. Now, I take it in addition to the $40,000 in- 
come you are talking about last year, there were certain capital gains ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How much do they come to ? 

Mr. McGinty. I couldn't give vou the exact amount. 

Mr. Halley. Approximately $100,000? 

Mr. McGinty. Not that much. 

Mr. Halley. Over $50,000? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. So that your income, including capital gains last 
year, would be between $90,000 and $100,000 ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Was there any other capital gain? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. Now, have you made capital gains in previous years? 

Mr. McGinty. Not lately, to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. The money you have invested in these real estate 
projects, is that money you have earned in the gambling business; 
is that right ? 



202 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McGinty. Some of it. 

Mr. Halley. Now, just one other tiling that interests me, and that 
is the nature of this racing operations prior to 1938. Just what did 
you do ? Just conduct sneak horse races at these various tracks ? 

Mr. McGinty. Conduct what? 

Mr. Halley. Horse races at these various tracks ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How could you run a horse race illegally ? Wouldn't 
everybody in the county have to know you were running a horse race ? 

Mr. McGinty. I think they did. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how did you get away with it ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I gave 10 or 15 percent of the gate to the two 
villages, and I run what I thought — I thought the system was legal 
I was using, as much as a brokerage office or any business like that. 
I used the contribution system. 

Mr. Halley. Who did you make your deal with on the amount you 
would contribute to the villages? 

Mr. McGinty. With the clerks. 

Mr. Halley. Of the particular village? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right, 

Mr. Halley. And as a result of your contributing part of that take 
to the village, they let you operate along? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how about the county officials? Didn't they 
ever 

Mr. McGinty. They got 5 percent, too. 

Mr. Halley. The county got 5 percent ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Well, did that go into the county treasury, or to the 
officials' private pockets? 

Mr. McGinty. No ; that went into the treasury. 

Mr. Halley. You mean it actually shows up in the county books? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever get a legal opinion as to the legality of 
such contributions? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who gave you such an opinion ? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I have got it from several. 

Mr. Halley. Have you got a written, formal, legal opinion? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, it was upheld in Geauga County. 

Mr. Halley. What happened, and how did that occur \ 

Mr. McGinty. I was acquitted. 

Mr. Halley. Well, tell the committee just what happened. 

Mr. McGinty. Well, they arrested me for— because they thought 
it was illegal. 

Mr. Halley. You mean they arrested vou for a bribe? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. For what? 

Mr. McGinty. For running horses against the law. 

Mi-. Halley. Well, yon just said it was against the law? 

Mi-. McGinty. They said it was against the law, but I said it wasn't. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what made it lawful to run horses, when the 
Stale law said it was unlawful? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 203 

Air. McGinty. What made it lawful? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McGinty. When they legalized it. 

Air. Halley. You mean in 1935 \ 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Air. Halley. But prior to that, what made it lawful ? 

Air. McGinty. What made it lawful? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I thought it was lawful, because I was run- 
ning it under the contributions system. We have had opinions that 
it was legal. 

Mr. Halley. What is that contributions system? We have had 
another example of it here in connection with your contributions in 
the place where you run the Pettibone Club. 

Isn't it a sort of bribe system ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. It is where a number of people gather to do- 
nate to a purse, and we were handling the money, and we took a 10 
percent for handling it. 

Air. Halley. How did the contribution go to the township? 

Air. McGinty. Well, that was in the gate. 

Mr. Halley. At the gate? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

Air. Halley. And who worked out the deal with the township? 

Air. McGinty. I did, or one of my partners, I just forget now 7 . 

Mr. Halley. And then you worked out another deal with the 
county ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Would they have not let you run unless you made 
these contributions? 

Mr. McGinty. I wouldn't say they wouldn't. 

Mr. Halley. But it helped?' 

Mr. McGinty. It helped ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Now, is that the same contribution system that you 
used in connection with the Pettibone Club, when you made these do- 
nations which you said amounted to about $10,000? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, them are just donations. 

Mr. Halley. How do they differ from contributions? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, contributions in a race track, everybody buys 
tickets like in a mutuel department. 

Mr. Halley. But how did the county and township get into it? 

Mr. McGlnty. They got the tax from the admissions at the gate, 
and we took 10 percent to handle the money bet on the horses. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you say they took it as a tax ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes ; they took it as a tax. 

Mr. Halley. What did you do ? Sit down with them and work out 
a tax? 

Mr. McGinty. That is about it. That is right, a percentage. 

Mr. Halley. Well, who collected it? 

Mr. McGinty. The village. 

Air. Halley. Did they have a man there ? 

Mr. McGinty. They had their own men there. 

Mr. Halley. They had their own men to collect ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes; checking the gales. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 6 14 



204 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Now, was that the basis on which you worked out 
your deal for this $10,000, at the place where you ran the Pettibone 
Club? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Halley. That was different? That was just a straight gift? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

Mr. Moriarity. May I explain that, if you will, Mr. Halley, please? 
Maybe I can give a little clearer picture of it. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Moriarity. The Bainbridge Track was built in 1928, and at 
that time, when I was McGinty "s attorney, I contended that the so- 
called contribtuion system was legal. It was in effect in a number of 
different States, and different tracks. 

Shortly after — I think it was in '28, in order to test the thing out 
in Geauga County, Mr. McGinty and one or two others were arrested. 
Those cases then were tried, and the jury acquitted them, establishing, 
in my judgment of a lot of other people — there were other opinions 
throughout the country as to the legality of that system. 

Now, with respect to what the county and the village got, there 
was a 25-cent charge made at the gate, 15 cents of that went to Bain- 
bridge Township and 10 cents went to the county. 

That was labeled on it — they gave them badges to go in that they 
paid the 25 cents, the county and village tax. 

The county and the village had a representative at the track, and 
they saw to the allocation of that money, in putting it into the proper 
fund. They came over, I think, at the end of the week and collected 
their money, and it went into Bainbridge Township and Geauga 
County. 

We never had any trouble, that is, they operated under the con- 
tributions system until in 1933, the horse racing was legalized in 
Ohio, and when it was legalized, Bainbridge operated under the 
legalization for '33, '34 and '35, and at that time two other tracks, 
Thistledown and North Randall, had come into the picture, and 
Bainbridge Track was out too far, and it proved 

The Chairman. All right. Any other thing? 

Mr. Nellis. Two other questions. 

Do you know Paul Francis Cage? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Sheriff of Lake County ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Don't know him at all ? Do you know Sheriff Harland, 
of Geauga County ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Never met him ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Never met either one of them ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no other questions. 

The Chairman. This Melody Music Co. of Phoenix, is that the same 
thing that several other people have said they have an interest in \ 

Mr. McGinty. I think so, sir. 

Mr. Moriarty. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you have an interest in it, Mr. Moriarity? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205 

Mr. Moriarity. Senator, I don't know which one I was in. There 
were three of them. I was in one. There was Modern Music 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Giesey said he had an interest in it. 

Mr. Moriarity. That is right. Same thing. He was in it. 

The Chairman. Now, another matter. Who was your partner in the 
Mounds Club, did you say ? 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Jones, Calvin Jones. 

The Chairman. Now, was he also in the race track with you? 

Mr. McGinty. No, Senator. 

The Chairman. Who was your partner in the race track ? 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Eddy. 

The Chairman. In the Pettibone Club; who was your partner in 
the Pettibone Club? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, at that time, when I was in the Pettibone Club, 
it was Mr. Gaylord and Mr. Ward. 

The Chairman. But they had nothing to do with the race track, 
did they ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

The Chairman. But you took Pettibone money to turn over to this 
clerk or trustee, about $10,000, so that they would have some fire equip- 
ment to look after your race track ; is that right ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, and look after them, too. 

The Chairman. Look after the Pettibone Club, too ? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

The Chairman. Prevent a fire there, or something of that sort? 

Mr. McGinty. That is right. 

The Chairman. Do you know these Angersola brothers in Florida? 
Are you acquainted with them ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

The Chairman. Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes, I have met Mr. Polizzi. 

The Chairman. You have had business transactions with him ? 

Mr. McGinty. Never. 

The Chairman. Did you have some interest at one time in Winnie's 
Little Club in Miami ? 

Mr. McGinty. Never. 

The Chairman. What is this International Thrill Circus ? Do you 
have some interest in it ? 

Mr. McGinty. Me? 

The Chairman. International Thrill Circus ? 

Mr. Moriarity. That is the thing in Chicago. 

Mr. McGinty. Oh, Chicago ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. McGinty. Oh. 

The Chairman. What was that ? 

Mr. McGinty. It was a show we put on at Soldiers Field, Tommy 
Walsh and another fight promoter up there. 

The Chairman. What kind of a show ? 

Mr. McGinty. The Bombing of Tokyo. That was the name of it. 

The Chairman. What happened to that ? 

Mr. McGinty. I don't know. It wasn't successful, I know. 

The Chairman. Then where did you have this roller derby ? 

Mr. McGinty. Here in Cleveland. 

The Chairman. That was here ? 



206 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. McGinty. I forgot to tell you that. 

Mr. Moriarity. The bicycle races. 

Mr. McGintt. Bicycle races, too. I was a promoter. 

The Chairman. Now, when Mr. Clark talked you into investing in 
the Desert Inn, what was his sales talk? I have been interested in 
that. 

Now, he built a building out there, and then ran out of money, and 
junketed around all over the country to find somebody to get interested 
in it, and finally settled on you Cleveland people. What were his 
sales talks? 

Mr. McGintt. Well, Senator, he was very successful in the gaming 
business before. He had a place called the El Rancho. 

The Chairman. Yes ? 

Mr. McGintt. And he retired. 

The Chairman. And he showed you how well he had done with the 
El Rancho? 

Mr. McGintt. That is right. And I guess he lost quite a bit of 
money and went broke a few years after that, and he was interested, 
I guess, in boats and different things, and he started this place. And I 
thought it was a very nice location, and if the proper kind of casino 
was built, there was no doubt about it making money, because right 
now, on a Saturday night, you can't get a reservation in the town. 
Business is good. 

The Chairman. Were you out there for the opening night ? 

Mr. McGintt. Yes, sir ; I was. 

The Chairman. Who handled the public relations for that opening ? 
Do you know ? 

Mr. McGinty. A man in California. I forget his name right now. 

The Chairman. It wasn't anybody from New York? 

Mr. McGinty. We had some New York people there. 

The Chairman. Well, this Mr. Schaeffer, in the Dixie Inn, where 
is he from ? 

Mr. McGinty. From Cleveland. That is Shaft'ner. 

The Chairman. And where is Mr. Jones from ? 

Mr. McGinty. Steubenville, Ohio. 

The Chairman. And did you have an interest in either the Sands 
or the Wofford Hotel? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

The Chairman. Where did you stay in Florida ? 

Mr. McGinty. When I was there 1 stayed at the North Shore. 

The Chairman. This Sammy Kay that you owned some property 
with, Is it Sammy Kay or Bennie? 

Mr. McGinty. Sam Kay. 

The Chairman. Where does he live? 

Mr. McGinty. Miami. 

The Chairman. And what does he do? 

Mr. McGinty. Real estate business. 

The Chairman. Does he live in Miami or Miami Beach? 

Mr. McGintt. Miami and Miami Beach both. His office is in 
Miami Beach. 

The Chairman. And you owned some property with him? 

Mr. McGinty. I got a sixth interest. 

The Chairman. Where is that property ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 207 

Mr. McGinty. Right down Collins Avenue, the other side of — past 
the Firestone estate. 

The Chairman. Now, that is out on the beach ? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, who else owns that property with you? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, the Strong estate, and Mr. Haas. 

The Chairman. Is that lawyer Haas in Cleveland ? 

Mr. McGinty. That's right. That is the only property I am in- 
terested in with him there. 

The Chairman. Who else owns it ? 

Mr. McGinty. And Kay. Kay owns 50 percent of it. 

The Chairman. Did Kay put up money or did he have it and sell 
you part of it ? 

Mr. McGinty. He sold us. 

The Chairman. AVhat are you going to do with this property ? Is 
that building property? 

Mr. McGinty. Yes. The restriction is off some of it and some of 
it it is not. 

The Chairman. Is that the property that you have some matter up 
with the City Council of Miami Beach, to get the restriction off? 

Mr. McGinty. Our attorney might have. 

The Chairman. Who is your attorney ? 

Mr. McGinty. Mr. Cohen. 

The Chairman. Which Cohen? 

Mr. McGinty. Herman Cohen. 

The Chairman. Do you know Ben Cohen ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

The Chairman. Are you a friend and have any business with 
Game-Boy Miller in Florida ? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

The Chairman. OrWexler? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

The Chairman. Do you have any interest in the wire service? 

Mr. McGinty. No. 

The Chairman. Anything else ? 

Mr. Nellis. I have one other question, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. All right, go ahead. 

Mr. Nellis. I just wanted to ask you, Mr. McGinty, how is it pos- 
sible to run these casinos without the knowledge and consent of the 
local law-enforcement officers ? 

Have you any opinion on that? How can you run an illegal opera- 
tion at a given place without the knowledge and consent of the local 
law-enforcement officers? 

Mr. McGinty. Well, I never opened one around here, myself, per- 
sonally. 

Mr. Nellis. Anywhere. 

Mr. McGinty. I can't answer that question. 

Mr. Nellis. You have no opinion on it ? 

Mr. McGinty. No opinion. 

The Chairman. All right. Well, Mr. McGinty, you have been 
pretty fair and forthright with the committee. The chairman previ- 
ously directed you to answer some questions which on advise of counsel 
you didn't answer, but the chairman will withdraw his direction to 



208 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

you to answer those questions, so that you have no more involvement 
with the committee at this time. 

Mr. Moriarity. Thank you, Senator. 

Mr. McGintt. Thank you, Senator. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. The committee will have a 10-minute 
recess. 

(Recess had.) 

AFTER RECESS 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

I believe that there are some lawyers here from out of town who are 
representing some of the witnesses who claim nonattendance on ac- 
count of illness or sickness. 

Sir, I believe you are from Cincinnati. 

Mr. Goodman. That's right. 

The Chairman. Will you come around, sir? 

Mr. Goodman. My name is Sol Goodman. I am appearing on be- 
half of Samuel Schraeder. 

The Chairman. What is your address ? 

Mr. Goodman. 1016 Union Trust, Cincinnati, Ohio. 

The Chairman. All right. Do you want to sit down ? 

You are appearing on behalf of whom ? 

Mr. Goodman. Samuel Schraeder. 

The Chairman, What is the situation, sir ? 

Mr. Goodman. Mr. Schraeder has been confined at the hospital since 
about the 30th of December of last year. I have here a certificate 
sworn to before a notary by Dr. Leon Schiff in which he certifies as to 
his condition and the fact that it would be against — it would be detri- 
mental to the health of the patient to leave the hospital at this time. 

The Chairman. How long has he been confined? 

Mr. Goodman. He went into the hospital shortly before New Year's. 
Around the 30th of December of 1950. 

The subpena was served on him while he was at the hospital. 

The Chairman. This affidavit will be made a part of the record. 

For public information it states [reading] : 

Entered the hospital on or about December 30, 1950, and has been under the 
constant care of affiant. Affiant states that he has been treating said patient for 
ulcerated colitis, and in his opinion it would be detrimental to the health of the 
patient to leave the hospital at this time. 

Do you know when he will be able to leave the hospital ? 

Mr. Goodman. The doctor was not able to tell me, Senator. 

The Chairman. Do you have any objection to us having someone 
examine him ? 

Mr. Goodman. I have none. 

The Chairman. Let this be made a part of the record. 

(Affidavit from Leon Schiff, M. D., is identified as exhibit No. 52, 
and appears in the appendix on p. 457.) 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Goodman. 

Mr. Davies. Mr. Chairman, I am Daniel W. Da vies of the Newport, 
Ky., bar, 331 York Street, I represent Albert R. Masterson. 

The Chairman. Sit down, Mr. Davies. 

Mr. Davies. Mr. Masterson upon hearing that a subpena was issued 
called the United States marshal in Cincinnati, made himself available 
for service, and having heard that it was a forthwith subpena was 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 209 

there with a bag packed ready to come to Cleveland. The next day 
he was seized with an acute gall bladder attack which he had been 
receiving treatment for for a number of weeks. 

Pie was taken by the fire department to a local hospital in Newport, 
or rather in Dayton, Ky. It is the only hospital in the county. On 
Tuesday of this week he was taken to Good Samaritan Hospital in 
Cincinnati where his gall bladder was removed by Dr. Louis Brinker. 

Now, I couldn't communicate with Dr. Brinker until 8 : 30 Tuesdaj 7 
night, and it was a little late to get an affidavit, but I asked him about 
the possibility of his testifying here, and he said that he will be con- 
fined in the hospital for 2 weeks and should have 2 weeks without 
travel. However, if the committee should want to send an agent to our 
community to take his testimony, all questions of quorum or the pres- 
ence of a member of the committee will be waived, if it is necessary 
to do so. 

The Chairman. Dr. Louis Brinker is still his physician ? 

Mr. Davies. Oh, yes. There were two or three physicians in con- 
sultation. 

The Chairman. And he is now in the Good Samaritan Hospital? 

Mr. Davies. Good Samaritan Hospital at Cincinnati. 

The Chairman. Will you have Dr. Brinker send the committee a 
telegram, Mr. Davies ? 

Mr. Davies. Well, Mr. Chairman, I can telephone my partner and 
have him go and get a sworn affidavit from him and probably have it 
here by airmail special delivery tomorrow. 

The Chairman. All right. You have him send us a statement and 
Mr. Masterson then will remain under subpena subject to further call. 

Mr. Davies. That's right. He accepted service of it, Mr. Chairman, 
and was willing to come to Cleveland the day the marshal was there. 

The Chairman. All right. Thank you, Mr. Davies. 

Is there anyone else ? 

We have a letter of January 17 which will be made part of the record 
from Dr. John R. McKay, Warren, Ohio, in which he certifies that 
Sheriff Ralph Milliken of Warren, Ohio, suffers from severe angina 
pectoris due to chronic insufficiency of the coronary arteries. He has ■ 
been a patient of his since April 9, 1947. 

Last night Mr. Milliken suffered a severe attack which required 
large doses of morphine to quiet him. He is being admitted to the 
Trumbull Memorial Hospital today to determine whether or not he 
has had an occlusion of the coronary arteries. 

Did you have someone ? 

Mr. McCormick. Dr. Louis Rezinski is going to make an examina- 
tion at 6 o'clock tonight and report his findings to us. 

The Chairman. Let this be made a part of the record. 

(Letter from Dr. John R. McKay, Warren, Ohio, re physical con- 
dition of Sheriff Milliken, is identified as exhibit No. 53, and appears 
in the appendix on p. 457.) 

The Chairman. Is there anyone else representing witnesses who are 
missing ? 

I am advised that this sheriff was here last Friday and talked with 
Mr. Nell is for about 2 hours and seemed to be in very good shape, 
but this doctor's statement, if he is in as bad shape as he appears in 
this statement, I don't see how he carries on as sheriff very well. 

Who do you want next? 



210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN IXTER STATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Eutkowski, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Mr. Rutkowski, will you come around ? 

Mr. Rutkowski, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Rutkowski. I do. 

May I have the privilege of having Mr. Joseph Harrell, the super- 
visor, with me ? 

The Chairman. Yes, indeed. Mr. Joseph Harrell. Come around, 
Mr. Harrell. 

You may have something to say, so we better swear you in, too. 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Harrell. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY RUTKOWSKI, CHIEF, ENFORCEMENT 
DIVISION, OHIO DEPARTMENT OF LIQUOR CONTROL, ACCOM- 
PANIED BY JOSEPH HARRELL, SUPERVISOR 

Mr. Nellis. What is your name? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Anthony A. Rutkowski. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have an official position with the State of Ohio? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, sir. I am chief of the enforcement division 
of the Ohio Department of Liquor Control. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you the individual who under Governor Lausche's 
orders raided certain clubs in the State of Ohio in 1949 ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have a statement to make in that connection, 
sir? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you have a general statement you want to make 
before beginning ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Before testifying; yes. 

As chief of the enforcement division of the Ohio Department of 
Liquor Control, it is my duty to see that the division enforces the liquor 
laws of the State of Ohio and also the regulations adopted by the Ohio 
Board of Liquor Control in reference to places that are licensed by the 
State of Ohio to sell intoxicating beverages. 

We do not have any legal authority to attack gambling or raid 
gambling joints. Whatever work the enforcement division and I have 
done, Senator, has been done at the specific and the personal request 
of Governor Lausche, made to me to attack that problem. And I have 
selected men from the enforcement division who in — most of them have 
served in the United States Army during the last war because I have 
felt that they will serve their State as devotedly and as courageously 
as they have served their Nation. 

So that I wish to make it clear that we have attacked the gambling 
problem by the use of special authority which the court has given to 
me in carrying out Governor Lausche's orders to attack the four 
major gambling joints in the State of Ohio. 

Incidentally, may I also say to you, Senator, that when Governor 
Lausche referred in his testimony to the Harvard Club which was 
closed upon his specific orders in 1941, I was at that time assistant 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211 

county prosecutor of Cuyahoga County under Mr. Frank T. Cullitan, 
who is still the prosecutor of this county. I was the prosecutor that 
examined the mayor and the chief of police of Newburgh Heights 
before the grand jury. I was the county — the assistant county prose- 
cutor that appeared at Judge Lausche's request at 2 o'clock in the 
morning in the criminal courts of Cuyahoga County when the 9 or 
10 men who were arrested by the Cleveland Police Department under 
the direction of Inspector Blackwell, who made the raid at Judge 
Lausche's request — I represented the State at the arraignment at 2 
o'clock in the morning; and I was one of the prosecutors that later 
tried those 9 or 10 men arrested in the Harvard Club, and they were 
found guilty and sentenced by the court. I think it was Judge Ewing 
who is now in court, I believe. 

I believe with that preliminary remark I am prepared to answer 
any questions that the committee will put to me. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Rutkowski, we have had quite a bit of testimony 
concerning the Mounds, the Pettibone, the Jungle Inn, and the Colony 
Club ; is that right ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nfxlis. Do you recall that, sir? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. We don't want to cover that again but I would like 
at the outset because we have had some testimony on the Jungle Inn, 
Mr. Chairman, to have these photographs put in the record under Mr. 
Rutkowski's name as exhibits. 

The Chairman. Is this the Jungle Inn or pictures inside or outside ? 

Mr. Nellis. Would you explain them as you look at them, Mr. 
Rutkowski, briefly? 

Mr. Rutkowski. The first picture is a picture of the two buildings 
that comprise the Jungle Inn. The first building is a building in 
which was located an up-to-date bar and a kitchen and slot machines, 
and the office of the owners and operators of the building. 

Mr. Neliis. Who were they? 

The Chairman. Let's get the picture marked exhibit No. 54. 

(The picture identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 54, and appears in the appendix on p. 458.) 

Mr. Rutkowski. I wish to finish the picture, Senator. 

The Chairman. Yes, all right. 

Mr. Rutkowski. The office was equipped with an inter-office com- 
munication system with a speaker on which you could broadcast in 
that building and the next building. The next building is 5 feet away 
from the first building. 

In the second building is where the gambling took place. That 
building was at the time of our raid, on August 12, 1949, had in it 83 
slot machines, 3 dice tables, chuek-a-luck, roulette, bingo, and a race 
board, with about 30 or 40 employees and over 700 people engaged in 
various types of gambling. 

The second picture is the picture of the inside of the gambling joint r 
in which we found the slot machines, the dice tables and the roulette. 

This picture was taken after the removal of the gambling equip- 
ment but as you walked outside the main entrance to the place, there 
stood a dollar slot machine with a big sign on it which said, "You get 
a thousand dollars for a dollar if you hit the jackpot with the red 
light." 



212 ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

So they took the last dollar out of you before you left the premises. 

The Chairman. That will be exhibit No. 55. 

(The picture identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 55, and appears in the appendix on p. 459.) 

Mr. Eutkowski. Exhibit No. 56, Senator, is a picture of the inside 
of the gun turret. 

The Chairman. Gun turret? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, sir. This is a picture of the inside of the 
gun turret. 

(The picture identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 56, and appears in the appendix on p. 460. ) 

Mr. Rutkowski. This picture shows a lot of paraphernalia in it, 
including the chair, and I believe that the opening on this picture is 
to the parking lot and rear of the gambling joint. However, I have 
another picture here, Senator, which shows — it shows the inside of 
the gun turret which, with the steel case in front of the opening which 
covered the entire gambling place, and this picture also shows a high 
chair on which the gunman sat with three blackjacks hanging on the 
chair even after the raid. 

The Chairman. That will be exhibit No. 57. 

(The picture identified was thereupon received in evidence as exhibit 
No. 57, and is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Rutkowski, can you relate to the chairman now the 
incident which occurred at the time of the raid involving this gun 
turret ? 

The Chairman. Maybe he has some other pictures he wants to 
identify. 

Mr. Rutkowski. I have one more picture, Senator. This is the 
picture that shows the gun turret inside of the gambling place, as to 
how it looked on the inside of the gambling place with the steel casing 
in front. 

The Chairman. Exhibit No. 58. 

(The picture identified was thereupon received in evidence as exhibit 
No. 58, and appears in the appendix on p. 461.) 

The Chairman. There seems to be guns sticking out of there where 
everyone can see them. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Those are just brooms that the photographers put 
in there at the time the picture was taken after the raid. 

After we made our entry into the Jungle Inn, Senator, and the 
people left the premises, things were in order, when a man that I later 
learned to be Mike Farah entered the premises. He was not on the 
premises at the time of the raid. The raid took place exactly at 9 
p. m. on August 12, 1949. He came in about 9 : 30, and he came in 
and questioned my authority and commenced to use foul and indecent 
language against me and attempted to incite a riot. 

At that time we had 20 — 18 of the gamblers who were operating the 
various gambling devices there arrested in charge of our men. And as 
he was walking out of the premises, after trying to incite a riot, he 
pushed one of the enforcement men at the door. A couple of the 
other enforcement men grappled with him, and he was successful 
in absconding. 

At that time John Farah, who gave all the orders and who was the 
kingpin in this place, commenced to curse me and shouted orders, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 213 

using the word "Kill him, Goon, kill him, shoot him," and then he 
pointed to the gun turret that appears on exhibit No. 58. 

That is the first time that I knew that there was a gun turret there, 
and I looked up and I saw the gun turret. 

When the orders was not complied with, John Farah personally 
ran into the office, into the cashier's desk, into his private office and 
then ran in to the gun turret to carry out his order. 

At that time, I later learned, one of my agents who was with me on 
the raid, when the order to kill me was issued, he ran to the gun turret. 
He grappled with the gunman and took the shotgun away from him 
and the gunman escaped. And then he noticed another shotgun in 
this turret and he emptied that. 

When John Farah arrived there to carry out the order to kill me 
personally, the agent was there and prevented him from entering the 
gun turret to carry out his order. 

After about 10 or 15 minutes, when everything subsided, this agent 
came out of the gun turret and came to me and reported what hap- 
pened and gave me the shells, the shells from the two guns that he 
emptied in this gun turret, and here are the shells, seven shells. 

The Chairman. Let's see. What gage ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Twelve gage, I think they are, Senator. 

The Chairman. They are 12 gage, extra long range. What sort of 
shotguns were these, automatics? 

Mr. Rutkowski. No one has seen the shotguns, Senator, because as 
the agent came out of this gun turret, the door had a Yale lock on it 
and it closed, and in spite of my repeated requests, in spite of my 
repeated requests of Sheriff Millikin to go to the gun turret for the 
guns, he refused to go, and I have asked him repeatedly to go for the 
guns and he refused to go. In fact, the next day 

The Chairman. When did you ask him ? I didn't understand. 

Mr. Eutkowski. Well, I asked him immediately upon his arrival at 
the Jungle Inn. We called the sheriff at 5 minutes after 9 through a 
short-wave radio set that we borrowed from the State highway patrol, 
and we were communicating with the Warren station of the State 
highway patrol, and they were transmitting our messages to whom- 
ever we wanted to. 

We called the sheriff at 9 : 05 and he never arrived until 11 : 37, at 
which time I identified myself, presented my authority to search the 
premises and to confiscate the gambling equipment, and told him about 
the attempt to kill me, and asked him to go to the gun turret for the 
guns, and he wouldn't go. 

In fact, the next day, at 7 o'clock in the evening, after we were in 
court and the court ordered the sheriff to confiscate and to seize all 
the gambling equipment, after we had loaded all the gambling equip- 
ment on vans to be moved to the storage house, the last thing that I did 
was, I made a request of the sheriff to go for the guns and he refused. 

The Chairman. Did he question your authority to take out some 
equipment? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, he did. I had shown him the search warrant 
and after he read the search warrant, he walked over directly to John 
Farah, without asking who was in charge or who was in authority, 
walked over directly to John Farah and talked to him about some- 
thing. I don't know what the conversation was about, Then later 



214 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

returned to me, at which time I asked him to arrest and to transport to 
the county jail the 18 men that we arrested, and then he proceeded to 
make arrangements to transport them to the county jail. He did 
transport them to the county jail; then when he came back I advised 
him that I was going to have the slot machines and the other gambling 
equipment moved onto vans that we had with us and move them to 
Columbus, he told me in no uncertain terms that I couldn't touch them 
and if — I asked him who would stop me and he said that he would, 
at which time the question arose as to the legality of our search war- 
rants and our authority to seize the gambling equipment. 

I suggested that he contact the county prosecutor, which he did, 
and finally, about 4 : 30 in the morning, the judge who issued the search 
warrant sent a message that we should not move the gambling equip- 
ment but to keep it under guard until the following morning when 
the question would be decided in court. 

So that at 9 o'clock on Saturday morning, August 13, 1949, I ap- 
peared in court and after a hearing in court, the judge ordered the 
sheriff to go and take the slot machines and delegated me as the court's 
representative to jointly confiscate the gambling equipment with the 
sheriff. 

Now, the gambling equipment, Senator, was destroyed, $11,000 in 
money was confiscated; the defendants, 20 of them, including John 
Farah, all pled guilty, paid a total fine of $4,500, and the fire marshal 
put a tear-down order on the building and it has been closed since 
August — August 14 or 15, 1949. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Rutkowski, would you tell the committee briefly 
about your raid on the Colony Club and answer specifically the fol- 
lowing question : Did you find certain material in a locked drawer 
which you have turned over to the committee? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, I have. The raid 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me. That was in Lawrence County. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is the sheriff of Lawrence County? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Peter A Burke. 

Mr. Nellis. Proceed, Mr. Rutkowski. 

The Chairman. Peter A. who ? 

Mr. Nellis. Burke. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Peter A. Burke. On December 20, 1949, I took 
nine enforcement men from the department with me and I proceeded 
to see Judge Collier in Ironton of the common pleas court of Lawrence 
County and secured the search warrant from him to raid the Colonv 
Club. ' 

The Colony Club is a brick — is a stone building separated about 40 
or 50 feet from the Continental Club. It is a successor to the Con- 
tainental Club. Originally it was the Continental Club which is a 
separate and distinct building. Later on they built this building 
which is now known as the Colony Club. It was one operation. 

The committee has heard testimony in reference to that and I have 
no desire to go into that, but it was one operation. 

At 9 o'clock in the evening, Joe — Mr. Herold and I walked into the 
Colony Club, just the two of us, and got by the guard, and he at- 
tempted to stop us and we showed him the search warrant and ques- 
tioned him ; and then about 5 or 10 minutes later the rest of the men 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 215 

arrived. At that time there was 250 people in the Colony Club play- 
ing bingo and there was five slot machines on exhibition. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was the owner of that club, Mr. Rutkowski? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Well, I believe that Mr. Giesey testified here today 
that it was the Cleveland syndicate. 

Mr. Nellis. You have heard 

Mr. Rutkowski. I have heard the testimony. As far as — until 
I heard his testimony it was known throughout Lawrence County 
that William Schwartz was the front for the owners of the Colony 
Club. 

Mr. Nellis. He is from Huntington, W. Va. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. He is the one that served time in the pen for man- 
slaughter; the same man, isn't he? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes ; the one that killed this guard here. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, sir. Now you have answered the question 
as to whether or not you found the material in the Colony Club ; is that 
right? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Maybe he will tell us more about the Colony Club 
or anything else he wants to tell us. 

Mr. Rutkowski. The only thing I wish to say 

The Chairman. Have you pictures ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. These are the pictures of the Colony Club. It 
shows you the two buildings. 

The Chairman. Let this group of pictures be marked as "Exhibit 
No. 59." 

(The pictures identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 59, and are on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Rutkowski. And the gun turret. There was a gun turret there 
and before we left, the last thing that the judge said to me after he 
gave me the authority to raid it was to be careful because there was a 
machine-gun turret in the premises. 

The Chairman. Did it have a wire service? 

Mr. Rutkowski. They had a race board there but it is not on the 
pictures because at the time the pictures were taken the race board 
was torn off. The Colony Club is now closed. 

The Chairman. All these places have a race board of some kind or 
another. 

Mr. Rutkowski. They all had it except the Mounds Club. The 
Colony Club at the time we arrested the nine men, we couldn't find the 
owner or the manager of the place so I — I received the keys from the 
janitor and I closed the place up and put the keys in a safety deposit 
box in the First National Bank of Ironton and the keys are still there 
and the place is still closed. The defendants pled guilty, were all 
fined $500 and costs. After 9 months of litigation in the Supreme 
Court of Ohio as to the right of the judge to try that case. The place 
is now closed and out of business. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Rutkowski. are these some of the items which were 
found in that locked drawer? 

Mr. Halley. Just look at them and say yes or no. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes : I can tell from here. 



216 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. They are, aren't they ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes. 

The Chairman. They are what you found in the drawer ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Those are the items. Those are the items which 
I delivered to you personally. 

The Chairman. Put them in an envelope and keep them. 

Mr. Halley. Mark them for identification. 

Mr. McCormick. Sixty is coming up. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 60, and is on file with the committee. ) 

Mr. Halley. Just one thing on another subject entirely : In connec- 
tion with your work with the Ohio State Liquor Control Board, have 
you made any observations as to whether or not there are any known 
gangsters or former gangsters in the liquor business in this State? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Well, there isn't any question about it that they 
are in business. Many of them conceal their ownership by fictitious 
names. Take Jungle Inn, for example. They used the name of a man 
by the name of Steve Pappotas who had a permit. However, that 
permit was revoked by the Department in 1947 because of the opera- 
tions of the Jungle Inn next door. But nothing was done about 
the gambling establishment until 1949 when Governor Lausche was 
elected Governor and I was appointed enforcement chief. 

Now, under our law, if a man is convicted of a felony he is not 
able to hold a permit. 

Mr. Halley. You are talking about a retail permit? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Retail permit to sell liquor, or any type of a per- 
mit, carry-out permit or a permit to manufacture liquor. If he is 
convicted of a felony he is not allowed to own a permit. 

That belongs to the permit division, and I have enough problems in 
the enforcement, Mr. Halley, without being able to solve the problems 
of the permit division. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know of any instances of racketeers or gang- 
sters in any phase of the liquor business besides the retail business ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. No, sir; I don't have any personal knowledge 
of it that I'd be able to prove. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think that you could prove that there are 
some ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes. It would require hard work and the selection 
of men who are able to do undercover work of that kind, and I think 
it would be uncovered. 

Mr. Halley. But what you are really saying is just your personal 
judgment now? 

Mr. Rutkowski. That's right. I don't have any personal knowl- 
edge that I could produce any evidence to that effect. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Rutkowski, as I understand it, the fire marshal 
and the liquor-control board, and the unemployment compensation, 
that you pooled all of your resources together and that they were placed 
under your charge to try to do whatever you could to close down these 
places. Is that the way it worked out ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes; that's right. Governor Lausche created a 
committee and gave us instructions to do everything we can to close 
these four big major commercialized gambling joints in Ohio. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 217 

The Chairman. Do you have any suggestions as to Federal legis- 
lation or recommendations for this commit tee '. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes, Senator. I would like to suggest, in order to 
break up this powerful syndicate of gamblers operating gambling 
places in one State and living- hi another, that it may be possible to 
destroy them by the passage of legislation by the Congress which 
would make it a Federal offense punishable by penitentiary sentence 
for any person to keep, operate, conduct, own stock in a corporation 
which is conducting gambling in one State and he resides in another 
State. 

The Chairman. In other words, where there is an interstate con- 
nection '. 

Mr. Rutkowsky. Yes. As far as the State is concerned 

The Chairman. In these cases that you have had here, you have 
had the wire service. Of course, that is an interstate angle. Of 
course, some of the people who have interest in them, I believe, live- 
in other States. 

Mr. Rutkowsky. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that true? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where are these Farahs? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Farahs are the war lords of Trumbull County. 

The Chairman. What do you mean by war lords ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. They are the kingpins of the jungle. 

At the time of our raid, within a half hour after the raid was in 
progress, there was one or two hundred hoodlums in the parking lot 
on the outside, and we were unarmed on the inside, and they gathered, 
everyone who had any connection with crime in that vicinity, on the 
premises. 

The Chairman. That is a very alarming statement, Mr. Rut- 
kowski. 

Mi-. Rutkowski. It is a matter — the Youngstown Vindicator had 
it on the front page of the newspaper. 

The Chairman. What time did you make the raid? At 9 o'clock 
at night ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes. 

The Chairman. At that time there weren't many people outside, 
were there ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. There were guards there. There must have been 
25 or 30 guards. The parking lot was filled with many cars, perhaps 
a couple hundred. 

The Chairman. About what time did all these hoodlums gather! 1 

Mr. Rutkowski. They gathered there about — well, the sheriff got 
there 11 : 37 — about 11 o'clock, or so. They were there after mid- 
night. They were there all night. 

I walked out of the building only once to talk to the Governor over 
the short-wave radio set. Outside of that, I never left the building, 

The Chairman. What did you see when you got outside? 

Mr. Rutkowski. They were just hanging around there and it was 
reported to me in the course of the raid, before the sheriff arrived — 
I believe it was about 10 o'clock — that they were making threats 
against my family, and I had the radio call put in to the Cleveland 
Police Department to put a guard on my home, and they very prompt- 



218 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

ly and efficiently did, and the guard was there until I arrived the next 
day at 10 o'clock in the evening; after the raid. 

The Chairman. What has been your background experience, Mr. 
Rutkowski ? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Well, I am a lawyer by profession, having been 
admitted in 1929. 

In 1931 I was appointed assistant county prosecutor by the then 
county prosecutor of the county, Mr. Ray T. Miller, and continued 
in that office until 1941 under Mr. Frank T.'Cullitan. 

In 1941 I was appointed in charge of the police prosecutor's office 
when Frank J. Lansche was elected mayor of Cleveland, and I served 
in that capacity until 1916, at which time Mayor Lausche became 
Governor of Ohio and appointed me to the municipal bench of Cleve- 
land. 

In 1947 I retired to private practice by the will of the people. 

In 1948 I practiced law. 

In 1949 I returned to the service of the State at the request of 
Governor Lausche. 

The Chairman. Well, we certainly want to compliment you upon 
the work you have done in this matter. You have done a great service 
in putting out of operation the four very large and vicions places. 

We wish you continued good luck, and we want to thank you for 
helping Mr. Xellis and members of our committee very substantially. 

Mr. Harrell, do you want to ask something? 

Mr. Harrell. No; I think Mr. Rutkowski has told you everything 
important. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Senator, may I add something? 

I want to thank you for your very kind remarks, Senator, but 
I w T ant to pay a high tribute to the courage and the devotion of the 
men who participated with me in making these raids, such as Mr. Har- 
rell, Mr. Kocevar, the man that took the gun away from the gunman, 
and the others who did undercover work in the Pettibone case, Thomas 
Penasis, Donald Van Home, and others. Without their courage, 
without their devotion, this work could not have been possibly done. 

The Chairman. Well, it is good to find officers like the ones you 
have been talking about. 

I think one of the troubles about law enforcement is that whenever 
officers do something that may not look correct, people are always 
willing to criticize, but they very rarely ever think to give a fellow 
a pat on the back or be thinking about a little better salary for him or 
better protection. That is one thing these crime commissions can do to 
mighty good effect is not only keep the spotlight of public opinion 
on mistakes that law-enforcement officers make but to take up their 
cause when they are not being treated right, and to see that they get 
recognition for the good jobs that they do. 

So that your men and you are entitled to the commendation of the 
good people of Ohio for the work that you have done. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Thank you, Senator. May I make one more final 
statement? 

I would like to call the attention of this committee to the most 
astounding situation in Ohio. It has reference to a suburb of the city 
of Cincinnati by the name of Elmwood Place, Ohio. There is a 
gambling place there by the name of Valley Cigar Store. It is 50 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 219 

feet away from a ptiblic high school, and it is approximately 50 feet 
av ay from the city hall, and the mayor can sit in his office and look out 
the window and count the patrons that go into the gambling place. 

The chief of police goes out of his office four times a day to direct 
the traffic to allow the children to cross over safely, cross the street 
safely, and the gambling place is in operation. 

It is operated by a man by the name of Ike Himes, a book operator 
in Hamilton County, and if that situation is able to continue, I am 
fearful of the attitude of the children that go to that public school 
that have for years had to cross and pass the gambling place before 
they can get to school and get home from school. 

Now, I was there with Mr. Harrell in March of 1949. They had a 
liquor permit in the building adjoining this gambling place, they call 
it the Maple Club, and by virtue of our testimony as to what trans- 
pired on that day, their liquor permit was canceled. They are out of 
laziness, but that gambling place is still in operation each day, and 
everybody knows it is a gambling place. 

Now, if I don't have any authority to put that place out of business, 
I wish that I would. I would take action against it, because the 
children are going to get a terrible impression about what our demo- 
cratic system of government stands for. 

The Chairman. Air. Rutkowski, it is only where you find a fire 
hazard or a violation of a liquor permit, or something of that sort, 
that you have the justification for your moving in, is that correct? 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes. 

The Chairman. I was down at Toledo a couple of times not so long 
ago, and both down there and elsewhere, I called attention to the fact 
that there were some places operating in Toledo, and I was wondering 
how they operate and why they didn't close. I understand that your 
fire inspector was in these places and couldn't find any fire hazard in 
those particular instances. 

Mr. Rutkowski. He didn't go there with my knowledge, Senator. 
I had no knowledge that he was there. I mean, the fire marshal acts 
separately and distinctly from me. 

However, if it was a part of the operation of which I am chairman, 
I assure you that things would have been different. 

If you have reference to the Webster Inn, Senator 

The Chairman. I don't know the names of them. I went by and 
saw them. 

Mr. Rutkowski. We have been working on the Webster Inn, too, 
and the information that my investigators give me is that they close, 
and open up for a day or two and shoot a little dice, and close, and 
open again, move to another place. 

However, if the State had authority, Senator, whereby the Governor 
could designate either the State highway patrol or the enforcement 
division of the Ohio Department of Liquor Control to attack gambling 
at his discretion, whenever he thought it was necessary because local 
law-enforcement officials do not do their duty, I believe that type of 
authority could wipe out the situation that we are talking about. 

Up to now the Governor doesn't have any legal authority, and we 
have to, in effect, use subterfuge to go there to put them out of busi- 
ness, as we have done in these instances. 

68958 — 51— pt. 6 15 



220 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. We have had some letters from persons making 
some complaints about situations down there. 

Mr. Rutkowski. Yes; we have confiscated, Senator, 107 slot ma- 
chines in one building that had a permit issued by the department of 
liquor control, and by virtue of that authority, we have seized all 
those 107 slot machines. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Rutkowski. 

Thank you, Mr. Harrell. 

Mr. Marshall, will you call Sheriff Peter A. Burke ? 

Are you Sheriff Burke ? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you 
shall give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Burke. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF PETER A. BURKE, SHERIFF, LAWRENCE COUNTY, 

OHIO 

Mr. Nellis. Will you state your name, Sheriff ? 

Mr. Burke. Peter A. Burke. 

Mr. Nellis. And you are the sheriff of Lawrence County? 

Mr. Burke. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. And you became sheriff January 3, 1949 ? 

Mr. Burke. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. And at that time, there was a notorious gambling joint 
running in your county called the Colony Club ; is that right ? 

Mr. Burke. I don't know the name of it, but that was it. I rather 
think it was called either that or the Continental at that time. 

Mr. Nellis. Either the Colony or the Continental at that time? 

Mr. Burke. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know William Schwartz ? 

Mr. Burke. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. And his brother, Howard Schwartz ? 

Mr. Burke. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. Were they the operators of this place ? 

Mr. Burke. I would rather think that William Schwartz was. I 
think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you ever in their homes? 

Mr. Burke. Not in their homes. 

Mr. Nellis. Were they in yours ? 

Mr. Burke. No. 

Mr. Nellis. But you know them pretty well, don't you ? 

Mr. Burke. I know both of them. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have a deputy sheriff working in your office by 
the name of Maxine Lenz ? 

Mr. Burke. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. And who is she ? 

Mr. Burke. She has worked in my office since 1924, and is now a 
deputy sheriff clerk in the office. 

Mr. Nellis. And her husband is Clarence Lenz; is that right? 

Mr. Burke. That is right. They were married about 8 years after 
she became employed with me. 

Mr. Nellis. What is Mr. Lenz' business? Do you know? 

Mr. Burke. He hasn't done anything for the last 6 or 7 years, I 
think. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 221 

Mr. Nellis. Well, you told us, didn't you, that he was employed at 
the Colony Club and at various gambling establishments? 

Mr. Burke. He had been earlier, but he hasn't been employed up 
there for I don't imagine about 6 years. 

The Chairman. Well, was he employed there a long time? 

Mr. Burke. He had been, I should think, earlier. Maybe 4 to 5 
years. 

The Chairman. Well, you knew that, didn't you ? 

Mr. Burke. I did. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, I desire to place in evidence at this time 
some material referred to by the previous witness as having been 
found behind lock and key at the Colony Club when it was raided, 
and identify this as a telephone bill, December 1948, from the Chesa- 
peake Telephone Co., addressed to Clarence Lenz, for payment, who 
is the husband of the sheriff's present deputy. 

The Chairman. Well, all these have been put in as having been 
found there. If you want to ask the witness about them 

Mr. Nellis. I wanted to identify them. 

The Chairman. Well, they are in evidence. [Refer to exhibit Nov 
60.] 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know anything about that? 

Mr. Burke. No, I wouldn't. 

Mr. Nellis. Take a look at it. Is that the Clarence Lenz you know ? 

Mr. Burke. It is. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, do you recognize these? Read them off, will 3 T ou 
please, one by one [hands stack of cards to witness] ? 

Mr. Burke. United Steel Gas Co., $2,80; Lawrence County Water 
Co., $1.50 

Mr. Nellis. No, no ; read one side first and then the other side, if 
3 r ou please. 

Mr. Burke. That is "Peter A. Burke, 554 Third Avenue, Chesa- 
peake, Ohio." 

The Chairman. What is on the other side ? 

Mr. Burke. $2.80, the gas bill. 

Mr. Nellis. Was this addressed to you? 

Mr. Burke. It was. It must have been. That is the first I had 
ever seen or heard of anything like that. 

Mr. Nellis. Continue, Mr. Burke. 

Mr. Burke. And the same thing is true on a water bill from the 
Lawrence County Water Co. for $1.50. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is it addressed to ? 

Mr. Burke. P. A. Burke. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that you ? 

Mr. Burke. That is. 

Mr. Nellis. And another one for $1.50 from the water company, 
addressed to P. A. Burke ; one from the Lawrence County Water Co. 
for $1.50, P. A. Burke ; one from the United Fuel Gas Co. for $1.20 ; 
one from the United Fuel Gas Co. for $2; one from the Lawrence 
County Water Co. for $1.50; one from the United Fuel Gas Co. for 
$1.20; one from the Lawrence County Water Co. for $2.62; one 
from 

The Chairman. What dates are those, Mr. Burke? 

Mr. Burke. February 24, 1944, this one. 

One is July 24, 1944, for $1.50; Lawrence County Water Co.; and 
one is October 24, 1944. 



222 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, there are a number of others which seem to 
be water and gas bills. 

Mr. Burke. All the same. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, did you hear the testimony of the previous 
witness ? 

Mr. Burke, I did not. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, for your information, Mr. Rutkowski testified 
that during the course of a raid on this notorious gambling joint, he 
found these bills behind lock and key in the Colony Club, in a drawer. 

Do you have any explanation of that ? 

Mr. Burke. None whatever. Because I have never had any con- 
nection with any gambling establishment anywhere. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, at this time. 

Mr. Halley. What is your address? 

Mr. Burke. 626 South Fifth Street at that time. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever live at 554 Third Avenue, Chesapeake ? 

Mr. Burke. Never in my life. Don't even know where the ad- 
dress is. 

Mr. Halley. Is that the location of the Colony Club? 

Mr. Burke. I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have the address of the Colony Club? These 
bills are addressed to you at 554 Third Avenue, Chesapeake, Ohio. 

Mr. Burke. I never lived in Chesapeake in my life. Don't even 
know where it is. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you don't personally live in Chesapeake ? 

Mr. Burke. Never have, never have lived outside of the two ad- 
dresses in Ironton. 

Mr. Halley. So if bills landed in the Colony Club addressed to you 
in Chesapeake 

Mr. Burke. Somebody has evidently used my name in former years 
for some kind of a foil. 

Mr. Halley. But for some reason or other somebody at the Colony 
Club was using your name, weren't they ? 

Mr. Burke. They would seem so. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own a house yourself ? 

Mr. Burke. I do. 

Mr. Halley. These are water bills. But you would get your own 
water bills for your own house. These aren't the water bills for your 
house. 

Mr. Burke. Those are not, absolutely. 

Mr. Halley. Are these the bills for the club, would you know ? 

Mr. Burke. I wouldn't know that. I don't know the address of 
the club. 

Mr. Halley. Would you know if these are the bills for the club ? 

Mr. Nellis. That is the only identification I have on them. 

Mr. Haley. Just that they were found in the club ? 

Mr. Nellis. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And addressed to Mr. Burke at Chesapeake ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You would have no explanation for it? 

Mr. Burke. As far as I know, I wouldn't have any explanation for 
that, yet. I am going to find out for sure. I know that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME 1 IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 223 

The Chairman. Well, your initials are P. A. B-u-r-k-e ? Is that the 
way you spell it? 

Mr. Burke. That is right. 

The Chairman. Who paid your bills ? Did you pay them yourself ? 

Mr. Burke. I have always paid my own utility bills. 

The Chairman. Your water and gas bill ? 

Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Hallet. Is Mr. Rutkowski here ? 

A Voice. Outside. 

The Chairman. What is this, do you know, Sheriff [displaying 
pad of tickets] \ 

Mr. Burke. I do not. 

The Chairman. Is that something used in horse betting, do you 
know ? 

Mr. Burke. I don't know much about horse betting, because I never 
bet them. 

Mr. 1 1 alley. Where is the Colony Club located in Chesapeake? 

Mr. Burke. It is located on Route 52, right on Main Street, in 
Chesapeake, Ohio, about 18 or 20 miles outside of Ironton. 

Mr. Hallet. Well, among these documents you said you found in 
the club are some bills addressed to P. A. Burke, at 554 Third Avenue, 
Chesapeake. 

Mr. Burke. Yes. They were right in with the rest of the records 
in the club under lock and key in compartments. 

Mr. Halley. Now, is 554 Third Avenue the premises of the club ? 

Mr. Burke. That is the premises of the guard's home between the 
Colony Club and the Continental Club. That is the guardhouse in 
the center. The picture will indicate which building. 

Mr. Halley. Why would anybody be addressing you at the guard- 
house of the Colony Club? 

Mr. Burke. That is beyond me. I intend to find out. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know any other P. A. Burke in the vicinity? 

Mr. Burke. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. Some of these bills, most of them, are marked 
"Paid.'' They are apparently receipts. 

Mr. Nellis. They are receipts for payment. 

The Chairman. Receipts for payment. 

Mr. Halley. Now, did you ever open up a water account or a gas 
account for any premises in Chesapeake, Ohio? 

Mr. Burke. No. The only thing I ever did, I guaranteed a water 
account for a man named Burke Trentner at one time, and he said it 
would cost me about $20. 

Mr. Halley. Now, who is Burke Trentner ? 

Mr. Burke. He was publicity man for the Continental when it first 
opened. 

Mr. Halley. The Continental? 

Mr. Burke. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. That is one of these gambling clubs. 

Mr. Burke. Yes, sir; that was probably in about 1941. 

Mr. Nellis. Why didn't you answer when I asked you if you had 
any explanation for it? 

Mr. Burke. Well, there is no explanation for it. I never signed 
as an owner; I signed as a guarantor and should never have received 
a bill for it. 



224 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Well now, if we go over to that Lawrence County 
Water Co., are we going to find an application for water signed by you 
for these premises? 

Mr. Burke. I don't think you will. 

Mr. Halley. What did you sign ? 

Mr. Burke. I didn't sign anything. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you signed something that resulted in the bills 
coming to that address in your name. 

Mr. Burke. There wouldn't be any— I don't think you will find any 
written application with that water company at all. They probably 
just — somebody has told them to turn that on, I should imagine, but 
it was nothing 

Mr. Halley. Well, who was this man connected with the Con- 
tinental Club \ 

Mr. Burke. His name was Trentner. He was the publicity man for 
them, at that time, and had filed an advertising contract with me. 

Mr. Halley. What kind of advertising contract did he have with 
you? 

Mr. Burke. Well, that was the Ironton News, of which I am presi- 
dent. 

Hr. Halley. The what News? 

Mr. Burke. The Ironton News Publishing Co., the newspaper which 
I run. 

Mr. Halley. You publish a newspaper now? 

Mr. Burke. That is right 

Mr. Halley. And this man was also your pressman ; is that right ? 

Mr. Burke. No, the only thing he did was come in for an ad, and he 
told me he wanted a guaranty on a water bill, and I signed a guarantor 
certificate. 

Mr. Halley. You mean he advertised the Continental Club in your 
newspaper? 

Mr. Burke. Yes ; when it first started it was strictly a night club, 
without any kind of gambling. 

Mr. Halley. Now, whv would he want your name as guarantor, for 
a $20 water bill? 

Mr. Burke. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. It doesn't make much sense, does it ? 

Mr. Burke. He had to have a residence of some kind to sign it. 

Mr. Halley. So you acted as the legitimate front for him ; is that it? 

Mr. Burke. That is right, if he owned the house. 

Mr. Halley. Did you later find out that this Continental Club was 
operating as a gambling place ? 

Mr. Burke. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Halley. You never thought to get the water turned off ? 

Mr. Burke. No, I don't. I didn't even know how far — how soon 
the guaranty, because I had never got a bill of any kind from him for 
that, I never. 

Mr. Halley. How about the gas bill? Did you guarantee that? 

Mr. Burke. That was the one I did guarantee. 

Mr. Halley. The gas bill ? 

Mr. Burke. The water. You don't hardly — there was no guaranty 
must have been required because I didn't — I didn't sign any card for 
any water bill. 



of- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 225 

Mr. Halley. You and your deputy, J. C. Lenz. seem to have thought 



Mr. Burke. He is not a deputy. 

Mr. Halley. A running 

Mr. Burke. Mr. Lenz is not a deputy. 

Mr. Halley. The deputy's husband. 

Mr. Burke. That's right, and he wasn't, I don't think he they 

were married at that time. They may have been. 

Mr. Halley. At what time ? 

Mr. Burke. When — early when that club opened I don't think they 
were even married. 

Mr. Halley. When did they get married ? 

Mr. Burke. I don't know about that, but there was some time along 
after she worked for me. I ran the squire's office and she handled the 
entire squire's office. 

Mr. Halley. She still works for you ? 

Mr. Burke. That's right, she did for 19 years in the squire's office, 
and then right now, still now. She is very efficient. 



Mr. Halley. Then she married this man who was working- 



Mr. Burke. For the Continental. 

Mr. Halley. For the gambling club? 

Mr. Burke. That just happened as a matter of course, I imagine. 

Mr. Halley. You knew all about it? 

Mr. Burke. Knew she got married, sure. 

Mr. Halley. You knew he was working for the gambling club? 

Mr. Burke. Yes, I knew it. 

Mr. Halley. Why didn't you ever shut down these clubs, Sheriff? 

Mr. Burke. I was only in there a few months. The Continental 
Club only ran 20 days after I became sheriff 

Mr. Halley. Did you shut it down ? 

Mr. Burke. Well, we had a grand jury and they all shut everything 
down; and after that, I think after October, I think the Governor 
was down to Ironton in October and the club wasn't going at that 
time, as far as I knew, and he said that he — he congratulated us on 
the shape of the county at that time. In October that was. 

Mr. Halley. How about the Colony Club ? 

Mr. Burke. Colony Club, that's what I think opened up shortly 
after that. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever shut down the Colony Club ? 

Mr. Burke. Well, only when Mr. Rutkowski called for us there, 
we did. 

Mr. Halley. Why didn't you ever 

Mr. Burke. There hasn't been any vigorous enforcement of any 
gambling lows; it had been going on down there. It is in better 
shape now than it has been in the past 40 years. 

Mr. Halley. We understand that it is due to Governor Lausche's 
interest. Why didn't you ever take any action yourself ? 

Mr. Burke. I was new on the job; I was getting acclimated. 
_ Mr. Halley. You must have been pretty well acclimated when you 
signed that gas guaranty. 

Mr. Burke. I wouldn't have anything — I have never been in a 
gambling house. 

Mr. Halley. You are the press agent for this house ? 

Mr. Burke. I wasn't press agent 



226 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You knew them? 

Mr. Burke. Oh, sure, I knew him. He fixed up the advertising. 

Mr. Halley. You knew him well enough to guarantee the bill for 
him ? 

Mr. Burke. He fixed up the advertising. These are the checks that 
you asked for, for 2 years. 

Mr. Chairman. Let's see them. 

Mr. Halley. And you have never at any time taken any action 
yourself? 

Mr. Burke. Oh, that time, no, because I don't — they haven't been 
running nightly. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you didn't until the Governor shut them down? 

Mr. Burke. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Do you think it is a good thing for law enforcement 
for the sheriff of the county to have his name on the gas and water 
bills of a notorious gambling house ? 

Mr. Burke. Not if he knew it. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you certainly knew about the gas. 

Mr. Burke. Only the guaranty, that one, that certainly should put 
your name on a water bill, I don't — because I 

Mr. Halley. You put your name on the gas bill, anyway. 

Mr. Burke. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. You signed this guaranty ? 

Mr. Burke. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. I think you said they had to have a resident, a legiti- 
mate resident in whose name it could be opened. 

Mr. Burke. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. So you, the sheriff, turned out to be the legitimate 
citizen. 

Mr. Burke. I wasn't sheriff then. I was a reporter on a newspaper, 
newspaperman at that time, sort of rambling around generally. I 
wasn't a law-enforcement agent then. That probably would have 
been — I don't know what years they were, but, anyway, I wasn't — I 
didn't have any idea of being a sheriff. 

Mr. Halley. When did you decide to run for sheriff? 

Mr. Burke. Oh, I think the party usually decides those things. I 
think it was done somewhere about 1948. 

Mr. Halley. When were you elected? In the fall of 1948? 

Mr. Burke. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you receive any campaign contributions? 

Mr. Burke. Not— Mr. — I think Mr. McKaren offered me some. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. who ? 

Mr. Burke. Mr. McKaren. 

Mr. Halley. What is his business ? 

Mr. Burke. He is an attorney. He is Democrat attornej^ and sort 
of looked after my campaign interest, 

Mr. Nellis. Hasn't this Mr. McKaren represented the Colony Club ? 

Mi-. Burke. He has probably but not for the last 4 or 5 years. 

Mr. Nellis. But he has been? You told us that? 

Mr. Burke. In times past, 

Mr. Nellis. That is right. And the Colony Club, too ? 

Mr. Burke. He never represented the Colony Club, I don't think. 

Mr. Halley. They are one and the same thing, aren't they? 

Mr. Burke. Probably 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 227 

Mr. Nellis. They are, aren't they? 

Mr. Burke. I couldn't figure that. 

Mr. Halley. Did anyone else 

Mr. Burke. They have different names and different corporations. 
It's possible, I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know 

Mr. Burke. I don't know the inner workings of the whole outfit. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know of any of the other people who were con- 
nected with these clubs, say "hello" to them? 

You know who they were? 

Mr. Burke. Only the ones — I knew the Schwartzes. 

Mr. Halley. You knew Schwartz ? 

Mr. Burke. Yes, I still do. 

Mr. Halley. Friends of yours ? 

Mr. Burke. No more than ordinary with any person who you meet 
casually, I don't. 

Mr. Halley. The only men who made any contributions to your 
campaign was this man who is this lawyer? 

Mr. Burke. He probably raised the fund. I wouldn't know where 
he got it but I wouldn't inquire, I wasn't interested. 

Mr. Halley. He was your campaign manager? 

Mr. Burke. Well, that more than likely ; yes. 

Mr. Halley. It would put you in a rather difficult position to go 
after his clients, wouldn't it ? I mean it would be a little embarrassing, 
anyhow, wouldn't it, sheriff? 

Mr. Burke. They haven't been clients for 4 or 5 years. 

Mr. Nellis. But he has been connected with them for a long time, 
hasn't he ? 

Mr. Burke. Yes, but you would think after he broke off, he wouldn't 
have any longer any connection unless I don't understand law very 
well. 

Mr. Nellis. Is this Bert Trailer still around? 

Mr. Burke. I don't know. I haven't seen him for years. 

Mr. Nellis. How long since you have seen him ? 

Mr. Burke. Probably I think he went to Florida some years ago, 
I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. How long ago ? 

Mr. Burke. I don't know. 

The Chairman. All right. Anything else, gentlemen ? 

Mr. Nellis. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman. 

In 1944 you had some gambling winnings, didn't you? 

Mr. Burke. 1944? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. What were they ? 

Mr. Burke. Well, I had visited the race tracks at Keen! and, I w T ent 
to Beulah, and various other places. I know — I think I won $1,008 at 
one of the places. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did you win ? 

Mr. Burke. I think I won $1,008. That is the nearest I can remem- 
ber because that was the only good one I ever had. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no other questions. 

The Chairman. I notice here, sheriff, that Clarence Lenz had tele- 
phone bills here monthly of about seventy-odd dollars, sometimes 
$99, also the monthly gas and water bill amounting to pretty sub- 



228 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

stantial amounts every month, and these are in 1948 and 1947 and even 
in 1919. These apparently have been paid and they were found 

Mr. Burke. I don't think he has ever had any connection with it. 
In fact, I think he has been ill and hasn't had any connection with 
that place up there for approximately 6 years, as far as I know. At 
least, that's what his wife told me and I tried to refresh my memory 
on it by asking her. 

The Chairman. Now these bills together run something over a hun- 
dred dollars a month. Can you give any explanation of why they 
would be paying Mr. Lenz' account ? 

Mr. Burke. No ; I wouldn't know that at all. I wouldn't know that 
at all. 

Mr. Halley. He had an important job there. He was the man- 
ager, wasn't he, at the Colony Club ? 

Mr. Burke. Probably in name. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. What do you mean "in name." 

Mr. Burke. I should imagine that he was probably in there at 
least, the manager of the — local manager, at least. 

Mr. Halley. He was the local manager % 

Mr. Burke. I think so. 

Mr. Halley. He ran the place? 

Mr. Burke. Uh, huh. 

Mr. Halley. And he married this girl you had had with you for 
twenty-odd years? 

Mr. Burke. That is right. 

The Chairman. Who is Fred H. Horn, do you know ? 

Mr. Burke. He is now deceased. 

The Chairman. Who was he? 

Mr. Burke. He was a Crystal Ice Manufacturing Co. official. 

The Chairman. Was he connected with you ? 

Mr. Burke. None whatever. 

The Chairman. William Potet. 

Mr. Burke. No, William — he now runs the Swan Restaurant in 
Burlington, Ohio. 

The Chairman. How about the Hickory Club % Do you know any- 
thing about that ? 

Mr. Burke. No, sir, I don't. 

The Chairman. Well, you have got the Swan Club running out 
there right now, haven't you ? 

Mr. Burke. They run a bingo, so far as I know. 

The Chairman. Well, they are running some sort of gambling 
operation, aren't they ? 

Mr. Burke. We indicted one fellow for bingo and it has never been 
brought to trial. 

The Chairman. Is the Swan Club running right now ? 

Mr. Burke. Not as I know, they aren't, not as far as any gambling 
is concerned. It is bingo. If they are going to call it gambling, why 
we are going to have some action taken to find someone guilty on it. 

The Chairman. The Hickory Club is running, isn't it ( 

Mr. Burke. The Hickory Club I don't think it has ever run for 
15 years, 12 years at least. 

The Chairman. Would it surprise you to hear of a bill addressed 
to the Hickory Club in 1918, June 1948, for gas, for water I 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229 

Mr. Burke. They may be keeping up their facilities, but they 
haven't ever run any kind of an operation. 

The Chairman. How about the Valley Club? 

Mr. Burke. The Valley ? 

The Chairman. Valley Lee. 

Mr. Burke. That is a restaurant there. 

The Chairman. Isn't that a bingo place, too, or something like that ? 

Mr. Burke. No. 

The Chairman. Sir? 

Mr. Burke. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Klein, the sheriff's records and what not? 

Mr. Nellis. Sheriff, have you ever read the law with respect to what 
sheriff's should do in a county to enforce the law? 

Mr. Burke. I have. 

Mr. Nellis. You know your duties? 

Mr. Burke. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Nellis. What are they? 

Mr. Burke. Well, to enforce the law in all respects, and be a servant 
of the court. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you the chief law-enforcement officer in the county ? 

Mr. Burke. That's right. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, perhaps later this afternoon Ave can return 
books, or most of the books and records you have filed with us, if you 
will keep in touch with us. You remain under subpena, Sheriff, in 
case we want to call you back again. 

All right, that is all. 

Mr. Ed Allen, please. 

Mr. Allen, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be 
the whole truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Allen. I do. 

The Chairman. Let's get down to the point we're talking about 
here. 

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD J. ALLEN, CHIEE OF POLICE, YOUNGS- 
f TOWN, OHIO 

Mr. Nellis. Will you identify yourself? Do you have an official 
capacity ? 

Mr. Allen. My name is Edward J. Allen. I am police chief of 
Youngstown, Ohio. 

Mr. Nellis. What county is that in, Mr. Allen? 

Mr. Allen., Mahoning County. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. We will have to have better order 
than this, gentlemen. 

Mr. Nellis. What county is that, chief ? 

Mr. Allen. Mahoning County. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have a prepared statement to make in connec- 
tion with law enforcement in Mahoning and Trumbull Counties? 

Mr. Allen. Well, not a prepared statement but I can give you some 
very good background. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you prepare a chart from which to testify ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Nellis. Is this the reproduction of it? 



230 ORGANIZED CRIME IIS" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Allen. That's correct ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, may we have that while the chief testifies? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let's make this exhibit No. 61. 

Mr. Nellis. Exhibit No. 61 to Chief Allen's testimony. 

(The chart identified was thereupon received in evidence as exhibit 
No. 61, and appears in the appendix on p. 462.) 

Mr. Nellis. To expedite it, maybe the Senator could look at this 
small chart, and the attorneys, and the chairman, before we take any 
pictures of this chart I would rather that we have the testimony of 
the chief because I don't want to do anybody an injustice on this chart. 
We will keep it here. We will keep it and let you take pictures as he 
discusses it. 

All right, Chief, let's get going. 

Mr. Allen. Upon my entrance into Youngstown as police chief 
in January 1948, until the present time, we have been engaged in more 
or less of a continuous battle with some elements of criminal gang- 
dom, most of the power which stems from the Licavoli gang, some- 
times called the Purple Gang, which originated in Detroit, and some 
of its earlier members prior to the time of that, from St. Louis, Mo. 

Prior to 1948, the bookie situation in Youngstown was organized 
by members of this group and three men of which — that is, three 
members of which demanded and received 50 percent of the local take 
from the various bookies that operated in Youngstown, Ohio. 

That operation began in about March of 1945 and continued up 
until the beginning of 1948. 

The three members sharing in this profit from the bookie business 
were Joseph Aeillo, one Dominic Caputo, and Joseph DiCarlo. 

This situation continued until the beginning of 1948, from March 
of 1945. 

Mr. Halley. The basis for that statement is your official investi- 
gation ? 

Mr. Allen. That's correct, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. You received written statements from various people ? 

Mr. Allen. That's correct. And through personal interviews with 
many of the bookies and with the participants themselves, particu- 
larly Joseph Aeillo. 

Mr. Halley. Did the participant Aeillo admit receiving 50 percent? 

Mr. Allen. That's correct. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ascertain how they were able to get the 50 
percent take? 

Mr. Allen. They had — the two of them, Aeillo and Caputo, visited 
each bookie personally and stated that if they wanted to operate from 
then on, they would have to pay 50 percent of their profits to them, 
in return for which they made an investment in each one of the bookies. 

Many of the bookies were recalcitrant ;<t first but they discovered, 
so they told me, that they had the political in and so they succumbed to 
the muscle, as they referred to it, stating that half a loaf was better 
than none. 

Mr. Halley. What do you mean by that, a political in? How 
would thai affect the bookies? With whom did they have the political 
in and what was it? 

Mr. Allen. The then county chairman of the reigning administra- 
tion who permitted them to organize on this basis: 



ORGANIZED CRIME" IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 231 

Mr. Halley. What could the county chairman have done to the 
bookies who refused to permit the muscle? 

Mr. Allen. He could have ordered the mayor, who, in turn, could 
have ordered the chief of police to close them up. 
Mr. Halley. Did that happen in any case? 

Mr. Allen. Not prior to 1948. And they also, at least they had 
the bookies, constrained the bookies to believe that they also consulted 
the wire service which operated out of Youngstown at that time and 
had for about a quarter of a century, which service was the Empire 
News Service operated locally by a man named Sam Alperin, who 
stated in the interview with me that he worked for Mushy Wexler 
who, in turn, rendered the service from the Continental Press and 
Arthur McBride of Cleveland. 

Mr. Halley. How did these three newcomers control the wire 
service? How were they able to influence it? 

Mr. Allen. Through the same political power that Aeillo had with 
the reigning political administration. In other words, the operation 
from Youngstown, Ohio, was permitted by the powers that be, and 
from Youngstown the race wire news was broadcast to the entire 
State of Ohio. 

The Chairman. Let's get to this diagram here so we can get it in 

the record. I mean, you make your own statement in your own way. 

You have got here Licavoli gang and associates, and you have got 

down next Peter Licavoli, Detroit, Mich., Tucson, Ariz., connections 

throughout the U. S. A. 

Just tell us about the whole matter. 

Mr. Allen. Peter Licavoli is a cousin of James Licavoli, down 
one step further in the chart, whose criminal record shows that he has 
operated in St. Louis, Detroit, Toledo, and Cleveland. 

He is the mentor or the supporter of Joseph Aeillo in the city of 
Youngstown insofar as financial backing is concerned, and he has 
been known on occasions to furnish Aeillo with funds which he could 
operate with. 

Aeillo was under the Mahoning County. 
Mr. Halley. That is Joseph "Fats" Aeillo? 
Mr. Allen. That is correct. 

Joseph DiCarlo, who heads that list, was originally from Buffalo, 
N. Y., with a long-time criminal record there, and has a long-standing- 
local Buffalo reputation as heading the rackets in that city. He was 
sent to jail for his last term in 1945, and was released on January 10, 
1946, after which he came to Cleveland for a short time, and was ad- 
vised to go to Youngstown, Ohio, and there to associate and organize 
the rackets which had been partially organized at that time by Aeillo 
and Caputo. Caputo has since moved to Miami, Fla. 

Joseph Aeillo was subsequently arrested on August of 1948 on a 
local ordinance in which trial much of this testimony that I am giving 
you now came out, and he was convicted on a local ordinance called 
the Suspicious Persons Act, which carried the maximum number of 
3u-aay sentence. 

He immediately appealed the sentence and it is in litigation and 
has been in litigation ever since. I understand that just yesterday 
the Supreme Court of Ohio heard the case. 

He was convicted by a jury, and the appellate court did not hold that 
the evidence under which he was convicted was faulty, but it attacked 



232 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

the Suspicious Persons Act, the law itself, stating that the law was 
unconstitutional because of the fact that when it had been passed by 
city council some 25 years ago, it was passed under an emergency 
measure, and the council at that time had failed to state the nature of 
the emergency, and, therefore, the law itself was unconstitutional. 

The city, of course, immediately appealed that appellate court deci- 
sion to the Supreme Court of Ohio, because the decision affects so 
many other city ordinances that had been passed under emergency 
measure, and that is now under advisement of the Supreme Court. 

I point out that from the day he was arrested in August of 1048, he 
spent but 1 night in jail, and it is now, of course, January 1951. 

Tony D'Allassandro, who is in the Mahoning County District — I 
think if I present this picture to you 

The Chairman. Has he got a criminal record? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; he has. I think he was released from a robbery 
charge in 1946. 

The Chairman. This picture you have presented me with we will 
make an exhibit. It will be exhibit No. 62. 

(Exhibit No. 62 is on file with the committee.) 

Tell us what the picture is. 

Mr. Allen. It is a picture of six men who were arrested in the city of 
Detroit, March 9, 1948: Frank Cammerata, Joseph Bommarito, an- 
other man named Joseph Bommarito, Dave Feldman, John Licavoli, 
and Dominic Licavoli. 

Now, this arrest came about as an aftermath of an armed robbery 
that came about in Youngstown, Ohio, at New Year's Eve, 19 — well, 
1948 — December 31, 1947. A local resident was robbed of some val- 
uable furs in February of that year, I believe it was February 21. 
This Tony D'Allassandro, Joseph Giordano, were arrested in Detroit, 
as they alighted from a plane in possession of these stolen furs. 

D'Allassandro has a sister with whom James Licavoli lives in Cleve- 
land, and they were to deliver these furs, fence them somehow through 
this Detroit group, and the Detroit police located that group of men, 
as a result of which one of them, Frank Cammerata, who was in this 
country illegally, was sent to Ellis Island for deportation — for re- 
deportation, that is, and he was there during March and through 
April, April 20, 1948, at which time he was released by virtue of a 
congressional — a private bill presented to the United States Congress 
by the Congressman Michael Kirwan from the Youngstown district. 

The Chairman. When was that ? 

Mr. Allen. The first bill was presented April 20, 1 believe, of 1948. 
When that bill ran out at the end of that Congress, another such bill 
was presented in the Eighty-first Congress on March 29, 1949, which 
asked the Congress to cancel the deportation proceedings presently 
pending against Francesco Cammerata, and then to present two bills 
m Congress which would have prevented the Immigration Bureau 
from redeporting this man, who, incidentally, is a brother-in-law of 
Pete Licavoli, married to Pete's sister, then residing in Warren, Ohio. 
The Chairman. I recall, Chief Allen, that you called this matter 
to my attention that the bill was filed by Congressman Kirwan. The 
bill was called to my attention sometime — was in August or July? 
Mr. Allen. In June, I believe. 
The Chairman. 1949. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233 

Mr. Allen. That's correct. 

The Chairman. And I asked Mr. Kirwan about it, and told him I 
thought he ought to make a statement, or he said he did want to make 
a statement about what it was about, and he said that the recom- 
mendation had been made to him, and he did note in the record that 
the man had a wife and three children, and he probably did some 
investigating to see whether the fellow was entitled to any relief, and 
that the Department of Justice had reported that he was not entitled 
to relief. 

Has any bill been filed since then ? 

Mr. Allen. Not to my knowledge, but there has been contact between 
the two men since then. 

The Chairman. You don't know whether or not a bill has been filed ? 

Mr. Allen. No. This present bill would have died with this past 
Congress around the first of the year. At the time he made his state- 
ment, he did say that he was withdrawing his support of the bill, and 
the congressional committee said that it would be killed on July 28, 
1950. However, it was not killed, and it remained in that status until 
the Congress itself died. 

The Chairman. But it was never acted upon by the committee one 
way or the other? 

I mean, the committee never reported out the bill or Congress never 
passed it? 

Mr. Allen. It stayed in committee, as did the other one, the other 
one previous to that. 

The Chairman. This fellow now, Frank Cammarata, isn't he in 
some difficulty at the present time? 

Mr. Allen. He is in difficulty, Senator, since early in 1922, but law 
enforcement doesn't seem to be able to keep him in jail, due, I might 
say 

The Chairman. I thought he was on his way to Michigan, or some- 
thing of that sort. 

Mr. Allen. Well, he was. On date of December 15, 1950, he was 
picked up on a Michigan parole violation warrant, and that dates back 
to the parole that he received from a bank robbery charge back in 
1931. 

He was convicted at that time — or convicted, rather in 1931, and 
sentenced to 30 years' sentence for bank robbery. 

Now, the Immigration Bureau, as it has ever been, has been very 
zealous and very diligent and very persevering in its attempt to deport 
him, and so they went to the Governor of Michigan at that time and 
stated that if he would commute the sentence of Mr. Cammarata they 
would deport him. I believe it was Governor Fitzgerald at that time 
did commute his sentence and placed him on parole, one of the provi- 
sions of which was that he should be deported, for deportation only. 
He was deported at that time in 1937. 

In 1939, he smuggled himself back into the country, a fact which he 
today freely admits. He hid out in the State of Ohio from 1939 until 
1946, and all during those years he failed to register as an alien, failed 
to file his income-tax forms, and for a time lived under a fictitious name 
in Pittsburgh, Pa. 

He was discovered again in 1946 by the Immigration Bureau who 
immediately attempted to redeport him again, at which time he ap- 
pealed to the Governor of Michigan for a pardon on this old bank 



234 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

robbery charge. That was held up in the Governor's office and the 
board of pardons and paroles for some time, and it was denied by the 
paroles and pardons board, and it was also denied by the Governor. 

Then they sought a new trial, and, as I understand it, that was 
denied. Again they appealed to the Governor of Michigan for another 
pardon, and one of the letters in connection with that petition was 
sent to the parole officer in Detroit, Mich. It says : 

I have told you previously the parole board has no intention of ever recom- 
mending a pardon for this man. As a matter of fact, the parole board rejected 
such an application on October 7, 1947. -This case is strictly dynamite for any 
judicial or executive clemency. 

That was written in 1947. 

Mr. Nellis. Chief, I don't want to interrupt your statement, but I 
think that if you would proceed to the other items of your chart, that 
we would get along a little faster, if you let the chairman ask you 
about them. 

Mr. Allen. All right, sir. 

I want to show that 

The Chairman. Let me ask you a general statement: Does every- 
body in this chart here have a criminal record? 

Mr. Allen. Yes— no, in the Cleveland area, I believe Al Sutton 
could say in answer to that. 

Mr. Nellis. The answer is "Yes." 

The Chairman. I mean "that is your diagnosis as an investigator 
of how the thing sort of winds up in this part of the country ? 

Mr. Allen. That's right, Some of those men are associated, some 
are outright members of the gang. It is a distinction without a dif- 
ference, I suppose. They associate — for example, DiCarlo operated 
in Buffalo, N. Y. He has connections in New York City and Brooklyn, 
Miami Beach, and when he got into the Cleveland area, he had to see 
the boys here. 

Mr. Nellis. What do you mean by that? 

Mr. Allen. You just don't come in and break into the rackets with- 
out the approval or at least the acquiescence of those who control it in 
that particular district. 

Mr. Nellis. Whose approval did he seek when he came to Ohio ? 

Mr. Allen. The Licavolis and the Angersolas and the — and so 
forth. 

Mr. Nellis. What happened? Was the heat too much for him in 
Buffalo? Is that it? 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. They don't want him in Buffalo. 

Mr. Nellis. Now then, he came here and settled in Cleveland, is 
that right ? 

Mr. Allen. He didn't stay here long. 

Mr. Nellis. What happened? 

Mr. Allen. He was advised to go to Youngstown. 

Mr. Nellis. Who do you think advised him, or perhaps you know 
who advised him? 

Mr. Allen. I don't know from personal knowledge, except that 
Aeillo or Licavoli — it was probably one of them, at least his associates, 
he or his associates, and that is how he happened to come into Youngs- 
town, and he had the way already paved for him, and all lie had to 
do was put up his share of the bank roll and he was in, much to the 
discontent of the local bookies who had no other choice. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 235 

Now, Giordano, who was arrested with D'Allassandro, when they 
transported the stolen furs to Detroit, was subsequently convicted by 
the FBI for transporting stolen goods in excess of $5,000. 

D'Allassandro, who was with them, however, was not convicted, 
because they couldn't intimately tie him up with the grip which 
Giordano had containing the stolen furs. He was convicted, imme- 
diately appealed his case, came hack to Youngstown, and attempted 
to operate with DiCarlo on the slot machines in Mahoning County, 
which surrounds the city of Youngstown. 

However, through the vigilance of the Youngstown Vindicator, 
who exposed even the hide-out of the slot machines, that venture was 
soon thwarted. 

Giordano and DiCarlo are still in the city of Youngstown, so to 
speak. 

Now, at the time that the administration began in 1948, Joe DiCarlo, 
Nicholas Tamburello, who also was an alien in this country illegally, 
and Charles Pavalaro, were in Florida, staying at the Wofford Hotel. 
After an arrest of Giordano and D'Allassandro, and the subsequent 
arrest of Licavoli and Cammerata, Joe DiCarlo and his friends that 
were with him in Florida visited the man who was robbed in Youngs- 
town, who was also in Florida, and attempted to persuade him not to 
testify against Giordano. 

I cite that to show that on one case how the connections of Youngs- 
town, Detroit, right down into Florida, all worked together to attempt 
to free or at least minimize the prosecution of one of their associates 
or members. 

Now, I would like to say, too, that Aeillo and this D'Allassandro are 
now operating in the cigarette-machine business in and around 
Youngstown, Mahoning County, and Trumbull County. That of 
course is a legal enterprise, and that money, too — Aeillo was broke 
after the rackets closed there, and he had to get a fresh supply, and 
through D'Allassandro they are now operating the cigarette-machine 
business. 

John Licavoli, who also appears on that picture as being one of the 
ones arrested in Detroit, became a bartender at the Jungle Inn, and 
was a bartender at the Jungle Inn when it closed, or when it was 
closed upon the order of Governor Lausche, as Tony Rutkowski 
has told you, after their raid. 

After that closed Licavoli was and still is a collector on the slot 
machines that operate in Trumbull County, under the direction and 
the at least partial ownership of Mike and John Farah, whose names 
were mentioned here. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know whether they own a legitimate business 
in Warren, Ohio? 

Mr. Allen. I think they own an appliance store. 

Mr. Nellis. Is it one of the big ones there ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; it is. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know of any other legitimate businesses they 
own ? 

Mr. Allen. I have heard that they have a rug store, too. I am not 
certain of that. But this gang and their associates that I have out- 
lined to you, not only did virtually seize control in the city of Youngs- 

68958— 51— pt. 6 10 



236 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

town, but they are also infiltrating into Mike Farah's dynasty in 
Trumbull County, and there is not much love lost between the Liea- 
volis, represented there by Frank Cammerata, and Mike and John 
Fa rah. 

You see, Mike and John Farah are Syrians, and most of these others 
stem from Sicily, and are without question members or associates of 
the Mafia, better known as the Black Hand Society. 

You heard Governor Lausche state yesterday about these men oper- 
ating a government within a government. Well, that is the name of 
the government, is the Mafia, and if you study the history of its be- 
ginnings in Sicily, way back before the beginning of the century, it 
was described as an association of persons having for their purpose 
the illicit control of all legal and illegal enterprises, such control being 
gained by forcibly excluding others from taking part in it, and they 
have done that very successfully in this country. That is the basis 
of it. 

The Chaikman. Has anybody ever told you they were a member of 
the Mafia? 

Mr. Allen. Nobody admits being a member of the Mafia. The 
Mafia is known by their actions and their methods, rather than by 
names. 

They have no elections. There are no members elected or appointed 
as such. They know each other by their activities, but there is no 
question about its existence, because the system couldn't possibly work 
without a system. There are certain district leaders in various parts 
of the country, but they gain their leadership through the sheer force 
of their own character, much as an attorney becomes known nationally 
because of his ability, only theirs also runs to ruthlessness, and the 
whole fabric of which is based upon murder. 

That is why all of these gangland murders never will be solved. 
You might as well cross them off the book, as law enforcement well 
knows, because, in the total absence of witnesses, you can't prove a 
case. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, is it your understanding, Chief Allen, that a mem- 
ber of this secret criminal society who admits that he is, is marked for 
death ? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, certainly ; they couldn't admit that, 

Mr. Nellis. What is the reason for that ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, simply because it is a self-government ; and, in a 
constitutional government such as ours, many of the historians of it 
say that it is almost an impossibility to eradicate. 

Only a tyrant could eradicate it. Mussolini made great strides in 
that direction, but no constitutional government can succeed very 
well. 

This parole status of Mr. Cammerata, that the Senator questioned 
his recent arrest, he was arrested by the issuance of a parole violation 
warrant on December 15 of 1950, because his very presence in this 
country constitutes a violation of that parole. 

The terms of the parole stated that it was for deportation only, 
and that he was never to return to the United States. He did return, 
and he is still at liberty. 

The Municipal Court of Youngstown held him without bail, pend- 
ing his extradition to the State of Michigan, and the common-pleas 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 237 

court likewise held him without bail. The appellate court released 
him ou bail on December 23. 

He was to have a hearing in the Governor of Michigan's office on 
December 28th. That hearing, I understand, was continued until 
either yesterday or today, and I don't know the outcome of it. 

I do say this : that the Governor — and this same Governor ; I think 
it is Governor Williams — has twice before upheld the parole and 
pardon boards, and has denied any leniency or clemency in this man's 
regard. 

The Chairman. You have got a long way to go here, Chief. 
Mr. Halley. I was wondering if we could possibly save some time 
by summarizing this chart you have drawn, and put your full state- 
ment in the record. 

When did you draw this chart, and for what purpose, Chief Allen ? 
Mr. Allen. For the purpose of this committee. 
Mr. Halley. For the purpose of this testimony ? 
Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Now, I notice you have Pete Licavoli of Detroit as the 
nominal leader. 
Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Of a gang which you say extends into Cleveland, 
Mahoning, Trumbull, western Pennsylvania, and Buffalo; is that 
right ? 

Mr. Allen. They have their connections, yes. 
Mr. Halley. And you tie these men together by association. 
Mr. Allen. I do. 

Mr. Halley. And how do you handle the relationship to these 
people of the gamblers about whom we heard testimony earlier today, 
who run these wide-open gambling establishments, formerly here in 
Ohio, and also Kentucky? Do they fit into this chart of yours any- 
where, or do you have a reason for excluding Kleinman and Dalitz and 
McGinty and Rothkopf and Sam Miller and Sam Tucker ? 

Mr. Allen. Their financial dealings. They borrow money from each 
other and do set up partnerships in that manner, but I don't call them 
gangland members. 

Mr. Halley. "Well, we know that they are engaged in criminal 
activities. We have heard testimony about it. 

Now, going down this chart of yours, could you just very briefly give 
the committee an idea of whether these people you have listed here 
for the Cleveland, Ohio, area are or are not, to your knowledge, en- 
gaged in criminal activities at this time, or have been at some previous 
time, that would give you a reason to put them on this chart ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; they are, with the exception of Emanuel Amato, 
whom I am not certain has any criminal record. He is the son-in-law 
of Frank Cammerata, and was his partner in the recent juke-box en- 
terprise in and around Youngstown. 

They were then attempting to get control of the juke-box business 
in the city of Youngstown and vicinity. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what racket, for instance, going down your 
Cleveland area, is James Licavoli in today ? 
Mr. Allen. Gambler, slot machines. 
Mr. Halley. Where does he operate, to your knowledge ? 
Mr. Allen. He has in Cleveland, according to the knowledge that 
I gained from the police here, but his connection into Youngstown is 
financial backing of Joseph "Fats" Aeillo. 



238 ORGANIZED CRIME, IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You mean James Licavoli backs Aeillo ? 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. 

Mr. Hallet. How do you know that ? 

Mr. Allen. I know it from confidential sources. 

Mr. Halley. J n other words, your informants tell you that ? 

Mr. Allen. That's correct. 

Mr. Halley. Where do you fit the Angersolas into your picture ? 

Mr. Allen. As being connected with the Licavolis through as- 
sociations here in Cleveland in the past. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know of any present racketeering activity on 
the part of the Angersolas ? 

Mr. Allen. They are down in Florida now. I don't know their 
activities down there. 

Mr. Halley. And Polizzi ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, as associate of the Licavolis and the Angersolas. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know any present illegal activities of Polizzi ? 

Mr. Allen. No. 

Mr. Halley. I am just wondering whether the chart clearly pre- 
sents a group of the three we have so far, the Licavolis, Angersolas, 
and Polizzi, who don't show any immediate illegal activities as con- 
trasted to Dalitz and the other group who have a present illegal 
gambling activity about which we have heard testimony. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sure; they are engaged but they won't admit it. 
James Licavolis record, for example, stems back to 1922, as does 
many of the others. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, our job has been and we have been forth- 
rightly trying to approach it, but if they won't admit it we have to 
prove it. 

Mr. Allen. That's true. 

Mr. Halley. We have had a lot of proof in about one group; I 
would like to get some proof about this group if we can before we 
come to any conclusion. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Can you guide us toward any proof ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. I am saying that Aeillo, Di Carlo, and D'Allas- 
sandro, Cavallaro have all operated and are operating in the Youngs- 
town area at present- 
Mr. Halley. That is your own knowledge. I am only interested 
at the moment in your central box on Cleveland. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Halley, perhaps I should explain. 

Mr. Halley. Can you clarify it? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. Chief Allen was trying to paint a picture in this 
district and in order to do that he felt it necessary to include the Cleve- 
land, Ohio, area on which he has had previous experience with respect 
to links between these names he has discussed here and those in his 
two counties, in the counties with which he is familiar. Now, he is 
not pretending, I don't think, to testify as an expert on the Cleveland, 
Ohio, area. 

Mr. Allen. That's true. This chart was drawn, as you know, Mr. 
Nellis, at your suggestion. 

Mi-. Halley. Frank Brancato, how does he fit in? 

Mr. Allen. He worked at the Jungle Inn. 

Mr. Halley. In what capacity did he work at Jungle Inn? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 239 

Mr. Allen. As a matter of fact, it was stated to me by one of the 
lesser workers there, who had a minor job, that lie had a piece, what 
he called a piece of the Jungle Inn. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't the Farah brothers own the Jungle Inn >. 

Mr. Allen. Not entirely. 

Mr. Halley. Wouldn't they be entitled to be on the chart rather 
than a man who worked there? 

Mr. Allen. They are on the chart. 

Mr. Halley. Where are they ? 

Mr. Allen. "The above share the rackets with Mike and John 
Farah." 

The Chairman. They are down at the bottom. 

Mr. Halley. That is in Trumbull County: is that right ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And Brancato is a Cleveland connection to the Farahs ; 
is that the way you work it out ? 

Mr. Allen* Yes. It shows John Licavoli, D'AUassandro, but the 
Jungle Inn, of course, is not the only operation in Trumbull County. 
There is the slot machines and they are still going. 

Mr. Halley. What, for instance, would Brancato's operations be 
besides reputedly having a piece in the Jungle Inn and having worked 
there? 

Mr. Allen. Well, that would be his only connection. 

Mr. Halley. Where would you fit Anthony Milano? 

Mr. Allen. That's the Cleveland district. 

Mr. Halley. What does he do in Cleveland ; do you know ? 

Mr. Allen. Well, he has his connections with this crowd. 

Mr. Halley. Did he operate slot machines, for instance, or any 
other illegal activity? 

Mr. Allen. I don't know what he is doing now. 

Mr. Halley. That you know of. 

Mr. Allen. I don't know what he is doing now. 

Mr. Halley. Did he at any time? 

Mr. Allen. That is my understanding. 

Mr. Halley. What would you say about Jerry Milano? 

Mr. Allen. Jerry — now, one of them is in the fruit and produce 
business. I don't know which one is Jerry and which one is Tony, but 
the Cleveland group, as Mr. Nellis has pointed out, merely has their 
loose connections with the Mahoning County and what I know operat- 
ing now in the Trumbull County districts. 

Mr. Halley. Could we summarize it this way : That the top-box 
man is Pete Licavoli, then the second box is the Cleveland area, people 
you know by associations have connections with these people in Ma- 
honing County, first, about whom you have direct knowledge ; is that 
right? 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. Then we get into Trumbull County where you have 
some direct knowledge; is that right? 

Mr. Allen. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. How about western Pennsylvania ? Is that again re- 
routed association or your direct knowledge ? 

Mr. Allen. In the case of the Erie men, in the Erie box, I have 
direct knowledge of their associations. 



240 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. What lias their business been? What have they been 
doing ? 

Mr. Allen. James Salamone, better known as Westfield Jimmy, 
has operated in Erie for many years. 

Mr. Halley. What has he done? 

Mr. Allen. With the slot machines and the numbers racket. So 
has Joseph Calaf ato. As a matter of fact, when I worked in Erie as 
a police officer, Joseph Calafato offered a bribe of $1,000 to lay off the 
numbers racket, a client for which he was subsequently — for which he 
subsequently plead guilty. 

Mr. Halley. How do they tie him to the Cleveland area ? 

Mr. Allen. Through association. 

Mr. Halley. Are they backed up by the Cleveland people or do they 
just know them? 

Mr. Allen. Well, they know them and fraternize with them and, 
if it is necessary, they loan each other money. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know of any case of a loan from any of the 
Cleveland group to any of the western Pennsylvania group or vice 
versa ? 

Mr. Allen. No ; I can't say that I do. 

Mr. Halley. How about the Buffalo group ? Is that again associa- 
tion or do you know of crimes committed by these people ? 

Mr. Allen. Joseph DiCarlo, I do, of course. 

The Chairman. You have the criminal records on all of them here, 
do you not? 

Mr. Allen. That's correct. 

Mr. Halley. The rest are these associations that you think can be 
shown, is that right ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, from personal observation. I have seen many of 
them together. 

Mr. Nellis. And from arrests ? 

Mr. Allen. And from arrests. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't that right? Isn't that one of the known ways 
of associating criminals? 

The Chairman. Can we do this? For any of these that we don't 
have records, you have the records on all of them here. Will you 
furnish us copies of them so we can put them in as exhibits to your 
testimony ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes ; I will. 

(The criminal records furnished by Chief Allen are identified as 
exhibit No. 63, and are on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. Chief — excuse me, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. I was finished, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Do you mean that you think these people are 
different types of operators from the people we have been talking 
about here ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes; I do. 

The Chairman. How do you differentiate one type from the other? 

Mr. Allen. Through their association with this philosophy of 
living. 

The Chatrman. I mean, for instance, we have a fellow — just take 
for instance, Mr. McGinty has testified here and this fellow named 
Kleinman. They have got connections in Kentucky and Florida, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 241 

Las Vegas, and so forth. Shouldn't they be in that chart some way or 
another? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. Those men I don't believe would resort to 
murder, organized murder, in order to protect their financial interests. 

The Chairman. You think this is the worst group of fellows then ? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, unquestionably. These are organized criminals. 
Those men are professional gamblers. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, that is a pretty serious charge and if this 
committee is going to stand behind it and naturally we do want to 
stand with you, Chief, I think we ought to have evidence showing 
that we can connect each of these people up with some case of resort 
to murder. 

Mr. Allen. Well, a study of the criminal history of many of them 
will reveal that to you. For example 

Mr. Halley. Are there any on the chart that ought to be excluded, 
in fairness? 

The Chairman. I think Amato, that while he is in some kind of 
business, he didn't have as long a record as the others. 

Mr. Allen. That's correct. He is a younger man. He is a member 
by marriage of Frank Cammerata. If you will study the criminal 
history of Pete Licavoli, for example, and his cousin James, Frank 
Cammerata, many of the others, you will find that they begin around 
the same year, 1922, and their entire history runs the same pattern, 
and the amazing part of it is that while many of them have had 20 
to 30 arrests, they wind up with very few convictions ; but it is appeals, 
discharges, and the failure, as I say, for the police to keep their wit- 
nesses, many of whom they are able to get right after a crime is com- 
mitted but by the time it comes to testimony, they are not available. 
There have been jury fixes, for example. 

Mr. Halley. May we then properly say that in fairness to the 
people mentioned in the chart and because of the importance of your 
views on it, that the chart ought to be qualified by saying that it is 
your personal opinion based on your years of experience as a police 
official? 

Mr. Allen. Oh, that's correct. 

Mr. Halley. But strictly your personal opinion ? 

Mr. Allen. That's right. 

The Chairman. And on the police records that you have ? 

Mr. Allen. Based on the police records and the criminal histories- 
of some of them involved. 

The Chairman. Well, subject to those qualifications, we will put 
the chart in evidence as representing your professional opinion about 
the crime situation in this part of the country. 

I do want to ask this of you, Chief Allen, to go over the testimony 
and the police records with Mr. Nellis or Mr. McCormick. the ones 
that we do not have. We will ask you to supply them so that they 
can be listed as exhibits to your testimony to make sure that we have 
something about each one of these people that are here. 

Chief, do you have any recommendations? You have made some 
to us that have been useful as to things that the Federal Government 
can do to help in this effort to prevent crime in interstate commerce. 

Mr, Allen. Well, I think the law that has already been passed, 
largely by the existence of your committee, on the slot-machine ban in 
interstate commerce is a great help. 



242 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The very existence of the committee which spotlights crime and 
brings it to the attention of the public, which is one thing, of course, 
that organized crime can't stand, that is, the white light of publicity 
is one of the major functions or advantages of the law enforcement 
of your committee. 

The Chairman. Public indifference is the chief trouble we have in 
the country, isn't it ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, almost. I would say, too, that you will probably 
agree from your investigation so far that the sheriff system in this 
country doesn't seem to be the best law-enforcement system. I find 
that in States that have a State police department. Pennsylvania, for 
example, where professional policemen can be delegated the authority 
to investigate crime and place it in the hands of professionally trained 
men, there is a much better job done than when States have to depend 
upon an elective system whereby sheriffs are elected and by that very 
election owe somewhat divided allegiance. They have to keep an 
eye on reelection and also try to do a job of enforcing the law and it 
is very difficult for some sheriffs, as you have already found out, to 
do that. 

I would touch on this again, too, and I think it is very important 
and it also has to do with the Federal Government. I think that it is 
wrong, it is wrong in principle for a Congressman or a Senator to 
obstruct law enforcement.' whether it is on Federal, State, or local 
basis. You mentioned the fact regarding this private congressional 
bill that it was merely for 

The Chairman. I want to say that it has been quite the practice 
in Washington to file bills. There have been lots and lots of them 
filed, sometimes in good faith, I am sure most always in good faith, 
where they sometimes just don't know the facts; but I agree with 
you that it is a practice that has been abused and that it ought to be 
discontinued. 

Mr. Alien. I will say in this case that it was not necessary to file a 
private bill because the Immigration Bureau and practically every 
other Federal agency had a very lengthy file from 1922 on this man 
Cammerata, and it would be an easy matter for a Congressman or 
Senator to make a phone call and ask to see the file without holding up 
for now over a period of 2 years the deportation of a dangerous 
criminal and one who by virtue of his association with these other 
men is very difficult to get out of Youngstown, Ohio, and the district, 
despite the most relentless and vigorous work of a police department, 
and we can't do it unless we get not only passive support but active 
support. 

The Chairman. Do you have any other recommendations, Chief? 

Mr. Allen. I will say, too, that in" regard to that, that there are now 
in these United States, at least there is suspected to be many of the 
members of the infamous Juliano gang. Juliano is a recent bandit 
that was killed in Sicily and many of his men are supposed to be and 
there is quite definitely known by some governmental agencies mem- 
bers of his gang have smuggled themselves into the United Slates and 
they will sooner or later be found by law enforcement. They are 
guilty of not only single murders but wholesale murders which Sicily 
terms "massacres." And it would be just as easy for a Congressman 
to put a bill in for them when and if they are discovered and thereby 
again stymie law enforcement. 



ORGANIZED CRIME/ IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 243 

The Chairman. All right. Thank yon very much, Chief. We ap- 
preciate your assistance. 

Mr. Allen. Thank you. 

The Chairman. I want to make an announcement about the wit- 
nesses. Tonight we want Mr. Malcolm Rhodes, George Gugel, and 
Al Polizzi to come in. Any other witnesses here from Kentucky, if 
they will come, we will try to finish up with them tonight also, at 
least make a determination whether they can go back or not. 

We will recess now until 8 o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 5:45 p. m., a recess was taken until 8 p. m., this 
date.) 

EVENING SESSION 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

The committee wishes especially to express their appreciation to 
Marshal Joseph Weill and the members of the staff, and the deputy 
marshals for the overtime and extraordinary effort they have been 
putting forth to help us with our hearings, and to the building super- 
intendent of the Federal Building, Mr. William Weatherbee, for ar- 
rangements he has made and the help he has been. 

I might say that we are going to try to terminate our hearings 
tomorrow night, if it is possible to get through. There is a pos- 
sibility we may stay over until Saturday morning. Not that we 
wouldn't enjoy staying, but we have so many other places to go. 

We will meet at 9: 30 in the morning. We will carry through all 
day. We will have a night session tomorrow night. If we are not 
through we will have a hearing the following day. 

Now, at this time, if there is anyone who is in the hearing room — 
in a hearing of this kind, it is impossible to avoid use of some peoples' 
names who might not feel that they have been properly treated. If 
there is anyone who wants to make any appearance or explanation, I 
would be very glad if they would let us know, now. 

Mr. Nellis has a statement which he wishes to introduce. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, this is in reference to Sheriff Ralph 
Milliken, of Trumbull County. 

You read earlier into the record a statement of Dr. McKay, and we 
sent Dr. Razinsky, of Warren, Ohio, out to see Sheriff Milliken, and 
this is his report, given to Miss Marie Cranley, Thursday, January 18, 
1951, at 6 : 10 p. m. over the telephone. 

The Chairman. That will be made a part of the record. 

It says he is in bad shape. Is that the gist of it ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

(The statement referred to is identified as exhibit No. 64, and reads 
as follows:) 

Report of Dr. Razinsky, Warren. Ohio 

I saw this Mr. Milliken. I went through all the previous records that Dr. Mc- 
Kay had, and he definitely has heart disease, and has had it for at least 5 years, 
and the type of heart disease is called arteriosclerotic heart disease, coronary 
sclerosis, and angina pectoris, for the past 5 years. 

The present attack he had started while asleep Tuesday evening, at approxi- 
mately 10 p. in., with severe chest pain. He took nitroglycerin tablets, whisky, 
and some morphine, without relief. Finally they tried to get Dr. McKay, who 
is his family doctor, and couldn't get him, so they got another doctor by the name 



244 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

of A. H. Seiple, Warren, Ohio. I called Dr. Seiple and Dr. Seiple told me he 
had a terrific case of what he thought was a heart attack. The man was in the 
shocklike condition. He was pale, sweaty, and his pulse was very feeble, and 
he gave him a half grain of morphine hypo, and the man, however, continued 
to have pain until he was admitted the following day to the Trumbull Memorial 
Hospital, service of Dr. McKay, his doctor. The pain has lasted approximately 
12 hours. 

When I saw him tonight he was still having some residual aching in the 
chest. Following examination and perusal of the electric cardiograph it is 
my impression that this man had a severe attack of coronary insufficiency, which 
usually requires a few days of bed rest. However, to be sure that this was 
not an attack of coronary thrombosis, a recheck of his electric cardiograph will 
be done tomorrow morning. If it shows no change, then this man can get up 
and out in a couple of days. If, however, he had an attack of coronary throm- 
bosis, it means a serious outlook, which means a prolonged stay in the hospital. 

I will look at this cardiograph, and if there is no change there is no reason 
why he could not get up in a day or two. He won't be able to be present in 
court tomorrow. If they hold a hearing on Saturday, he might be able to be 
there Saturday. 

I will call you tomorrow morning, and tell you about what the cardiograph 
shows. 

Dr. Razinsky's telephone number : 2-9216. Will be in his office until about 9 : 30 
tonight of you want to call him. 

The Chairman. I believe that Mr. Polizzi is our first witness to- 
night. 

Mr. Fulton. Senator, I received a telephone call that the session 
would commence at 8 o'clock. I inquired whether Mr. Polizzi would 
be first, and I understood the response to be that he would not be, that 
there might be one or two ahead of him. 

A gentleman back here told me just a moment ago that he saw him 
across the street, so I think he will be here presently. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Fulton. See if you can get him here 
right away, will you? 

Is Sheriff Timiney here ? I understand Sheriff Timiney wasn't feel- 
ing well, and if he will come around we will hear him now. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, do you solemnly swear the testimony you 
will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Sheriff Timiney. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE B. TIMINEY, SHERIFF, LUCAS COUNTY, 

OHIO 

The Chairman. Let's proceed, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you state your full name, please? 

Mr. Timiney. George B. Timiney. 

Mi-. Nellis. Are you sheriff of Lucas County ? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you been sheriff ? 

Mr. Timiney. Two years, on the 30th of January. 

Mr. Nellis. Prior to that you were of the Cleveland police depart- 
ment ? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, apparently you are suffering from laryn- 
gitis, or something of that sort. 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

The Chairman. You just got it? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 245 

Mr. Timiney. No; I had a touch of it when I was up here Sunday, 
and we drove back to Toledo and ran into a lot of that fog. I was up 
here to see Mr. Nellis and Mr. McCormick. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Nellis. Sheriff, have you heard of any gambling in Lucas 
County ? 

Mr. Timiney. When do you mean? 

Mr. Nellis. Sir? 

Mr. Timiney. When do you mean ? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, have you heard of the Pines Club ? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And what goes on there ? 

Mr. Timiney. There is no gambling there. A fellow lives there. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of the Webster Inn? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What goes on there? 

Air. Timiney. Nothing. It is closed up. It is vacant. 

Mr. Nellis. It is vacant ? 

Mr. Timiney. Vacant. 

Mr. Nellis. Wasn't it running about a week ago? 

Mr. Timiney. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Joe Fretti ? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How well do you know him ? 

Air. Timiney. I have known him ever since I was about 8 or 9 years 
old. Went to school with him. 

Air. Nellis. Does he visit at your house? 

Mr. Timiney. He has been at my house. 

Mr. Nellis. And you in his? 

Mr. Timiney. No ; I haven't been in his house — well, I have been in 
his house, but I haven't been there for several years. 

Mr. Nellis. I am sorry? 

Mr. Timiney. I haven't been there in several years. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of the Woodville Club at 2172 Wood- 
ville Road? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes; that's some fellow bv the name of Dugan runs 
that. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of place is that ? 

Mr. Timiney. It has the reputation of a gambling joint and boot- 
legging place. 

Mr. Nellis. Have vou ever heard of one called the Chesterfield 
Club? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of a place is that ? 

Mr. Timiney. It was a bootlegging place. 

Mr. Nellis. How about the T & T Club at UU Detroit Avenue? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, that was a wire place where they received the 
wire. 

Mr. Nellis. Now. these places I have asked you about are listed as 
disseminating racing news; isn't that a fact I 

Mr. Timiney. As far as I know ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. It is a public matter. Thev have been listed that wav. 
Isn't that right? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 



246 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Now, do you know anything about the Webster Inn ? 
Have you ever been in the place? 

Mr. Timiney. Never. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever raid it ? 

Mr. Timiney. No ; I never have. 

The Chairman. Where is it? 

Mr. Nellis. That is in Toledo, Ohio, is it not ? 

The Chairman. In what county ? 

Mr. Nellis. Is it outside of Toledo? 

Mr. Timiney. It is out in the county ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Is it within your jurisdiction? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. As sheriff? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of files do you keep in your office with re- 
spect to raids that you make on gambling joints, if any ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, if we make any raids, we keep files so we can 
go to court with them. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know of any raids you made, do you make 
any raids? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes, we have. 

Mr. Nellis. On what places ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, we have been in the Victory Club. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you find there ? 

The Chairman. In the where? Victory? 

Mr. Timiney. Victory Club. 

The Chairman. Victory? 

Mr. Timiney. Victory Club; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you find there as sheriff? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, I wasn't out there ; some of my men was. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that a pretty big place ? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, not a very big place. 

Mr. Nellis. You didn't think it was important, did you, to go out 
there ? 

Mr. Timiney. It is always a gambling place. 

Mr. Nellis. It is always a gambling place ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, a gambling place is a gambling place. We try 
to keep them closed but they keep sneaking all the time. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know a place which is called the Western Inn ? 

Mr. Timiney. The Western Inn ? 

Mr. Nellis. I'm sorry. Webster Inn. 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You said you did. Who operates that? 

Mr. Timiney. I couldn't tell you who operates that now. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, who are the fellows who used to operate it? 

Mr. Timiney. The Aranoffs. 

Mr. Nellis. Where were they from? 

Mr. Timiney. Originally from Detroit. 

Mr. Nellis. Aranoffs? 

The Chairman. Let's get that name. 

Mr. Nellis. Joe Aranoff and Ben Aranoff. Is that right ? 

Mr. Timiney. That's right. 

The Chairman. How do you spell it? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 247 

Mr. Nellis. A-r-a-h-o-f-f. When did you first meet tliem, Sheriff? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, I met them probably 25 years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. Do they have a criminal record ? 

Mr. Timiney. Only as he served time out to the workhouse. 

Mr. Nellis. For what ? 

Mr. Timiney. For gambling. 

Mr. Nellis. Was the Devon Club a gambling place? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Are there any other places that I have not mentioned 
that you know of that operated as gambling casinos in your county? 
How about the Benor Club ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, the Benor Club used to operate but I don't 
think — I don't know how long they have been closed. They have 
been closed for a long time. 

Mr. Nellis. How long ? 

Mr. Timiney I would sa} T for ■ 

Mr. Nellis. How long ? 

Mr. Timiney. I couldn't tell you that. 

Mr. Xellts. Which club? 

Mr. Timiney. I never was in the place in my life. 

Mr. Nellis. Which clubs did your friends Joe and Ben Fretty run? 

Mr. Timiney., Well, they were connected with the Aranoffs. 

Mr. Nellis. In what place? 

Mr. Timiney. In the Webster Inn. 

Mr. Nellis. And you knew that all the time? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, I knew that they had doings with him. 

Mr. Nellis. Have there been any attempts to bribe you in order to 
keep the places running? 

Mr. Timiney. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't I ask you during the course of our interview 
the following question and didn't you answer as follows : 

Question. Have you during your tenure in office been offered any bribes of 
any kind, of any nature? 

Mr. Timiney. I didn't — I wasn't in office 10 years. 
Mr. Nellis. I am not asking you that. I am asking jou. since you 
have been in office. 

The Chairman. What was his answer ? 
Mr. Nellis. The answer is : 

I have been offered bribes for years, both in the police department and in the 
sheriff's office, but to me it don't mean a thing. 

Mr. Timiney. Well, that could be but I have never received any- 
thing. I never accepted any. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, could you name some of the people that have 
attempted to bribe you? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, we have had — I was on the homicide squad on 
the police department and I was up in the detectives' office for 32 
years. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, offhand, can you give me the names of any people 
Avho might have tried to bribe you and the reasons for those attempts ( 

Mr. Timiney. No. I can't. 

Mr. Nellis. You didn't bring much in the way of records, did you 
Sheriff ? Do you have any records that you would like to present to 
the committee ? 



248 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Timiney. I was told to bring a copy of the campaign 

Mr. McCormick. The campaign contributions. 

Mr. Timiney. Here is the last 1949 income-tax papers that I found. 

Mr. McCormick. Could we see the campaign contributions? 

Mr. Nellis. Now, Sheriff, who is James McGrath? 

Mr. Timiney. James McGrath is a retired tavern keeper. 

Mr. Nellis. Sir? 

Mr. Timiney. A retired tavern keeper. 

Mr. Nellis. He gave you a thousand dollars toward your campaign ? 

Mr. Timiney. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. James B. Murphy. 

Mr. Timiney. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he ? 

Mr. Timiney. He is a steamfitter. 

Mr. Nellis. Edwin J. Lynch. 

Mr. Timiney. He is an attorney. 

Mr. Nellis. Ben L. Levine. 

Mr. Timiney. He is an attorney, also. 

Mr. Nellis. Does he represent any of these gambling proprietors ? 

Mr. Timiney. No. I think Ed Lynch is, out here. 

Mr. Nellis. Ed Lynch represents some of them ? 

Mr. Timiney. I think he is out here to represent. I was just talking 
to him. 

Mr. Nellis- It is your opinion, at least, that he represents some of 
these gambling club proprietors ? Is that right ? 

Mr. Timiney. I think so. I just talked to him out there before I 
was called in. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did you get from him? Do you remember? 

Mr. Timiney. Five hundred, I think. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, Sheriff, are you a gambling man ? 

Mr. Timiney. I play the horses once in a while. 

Mr. Nellis. You do what? 

Mr. Timiney. I play the horses once in a while. I don't go around 
any gambling places. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you recall a gambling income in 1949 that you 
received ? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't ? 

Mr. Timiney. I do. 

The Chairman. What was it about, Sheriff ? 

Mr. Timiney. It is on that income tax. 

Mr. Nellis. How much was it? 

Mr. Timiney. $6,000, 1 think it is. 

Mr. Nellis. You are not sure? 

Mr. Timiney. It is marked on the income tax. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you tell me four or five thousand dollars at the 
time that I talked to you ? 

The Chairman. Anyway, $G,000. What was it for ? Where did you 
get it? 

Mr. Timiney. Betting on the horses. Detroit is only 115 miles and 
they got three race tracks over there. We got one in Lucas County. 

Mr. Nellis. Sheriff, did you get very lucky in 1949? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you do any betting before that? 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249 

Mr. Timiney. I have, yes, from time to time. I have been detailed 
around those races for years. 

Mr. Nellis. Prior to 1949, your best year was $3,747, and you were 
elected sheriff January 3, 1949; is that right? 

Mr. Timiney. I was — I went in office. 

Mr. Nellis. January 3? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. 1949. 

And you had this nice round $(3,000 income in that year; is that 
right? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What happened ? Were the horses good to you after 
you took office ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, it was just one of those things that I could 
play a little better. 

Mr. Nellis. I'm sorry. 

Mr. Timiney. I get rent down in the jail, living quarters there for 
free. 

Mr. Nellis. What has that got to do with your income of $6,000 
from wagers the first year you were sheriff? 

Mr. Timiney. I had a little more money to wager on them. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you get that money from the gamblers for letting 
them run in your county ? 

Mr. Timiney. Never. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact that after all this close association with 
the Fretty brothers for years and the Aranoffs for years that they 
were glad to see you become sheriff because then they knew that they 
could run wide open as they have been for some time? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, naturally, they are always for the sheriff that 
goes in office. 

Mr. Nellis. They are naturally — 

Mr. Timiney. They want to get along with the sheriff that goes in 
office. 

Mr. Nellis. They want to get along with the sheriff who lets them 
stay open ; isn't that right ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, they are going to try to get along. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. No questions. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, as I understand it — I am not testifying — 
but I was down in Toledo a couple of times in the last 7 or 8 months. 
I was pointed out these various clubs outside of the city of Toledo. 
You had about five clubs running: Pines, and Chesterfield Club, and 
the Webster Inn, and the Victory Club, and Westwood Club. I be- 
lieve the Benor Club is now closed. 

Mr. Timiney. It has been closed for a long time, and the Pines have 
been closed. 

The Chairman. The Pines hasn't been closed very long. 

Mr. Timiney. Yes ; been closed for quite some time. 

The Chairman. How long ? It hasn't been running about 5 months. 

Mr. Timiney. Longer than that, I think. 

The Chairman. Anyway, the thing is that these places are appar- 
ently wide open and pretty big operations, from everything we have 
been informed. 



250 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Why didn't you close them up? That is what we want to know. 

Mr. Timiney. We would go out there quite often and run every- 
body out of the place. 

The Chairman. Do what? 

Mr. Timiney. Chase everybody out of there. 

The Chairman. Who did you arrest? Who runs the place? 

Mr. Timiney. You have to get evidence to arrest them. I mean we 
haven't got any means for any undercover men. 

The Chairman. Would you take the slot machines ? 

Mr. Timiney. We have taken those slot machines down. 

The Chairman. What is the place where you go under the railroad 
and you come up to a gambling place on the right ? What is the name 
of that club ? Is that the Webster Club ? When you come outside of 
the city limits. 

Mr. Timiney. There are two places. 

The Chairman. When you come out of the city limits and go under 
the railroad and right on the right there is a great big club with a big 
parking place, right out of the city limits. 

Mr. Timiney. Well, you see, there is one over in East Toledo. 

The Chairman. What is the name of that place ? 

Mr. McCormick. That is the Webster place. 

The Chairman. It is a great big place with a big brick wall around 
it where you can drive in and park your car. That is the Webster 
Club, isn't it? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, there is a Webster Club, and then there is Ralph 
Dugan's place out on Woodville Road. 

The Chairman. Then you go out a little further and you turn to 
the left and you come to the Pines Club. 

Mr. Timiney. That is out on Sylvania and Alexis Roads. That is 
a different direction. 

The Chairman. At the Webster Club you have a place where the 
busses stop right in front and the customers from Detroit come down 
and get off in front of the Webster Club, right in front of the place, 
and walk in. 

Mr. Timiney. They have done that. 

The Chairman. That has been going on. 

Then right across the street is a little restaurant where four slot 
machines are right in plain view, isn't there? 

Mr. Timiney. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. You just go in and look in there, Sheriff, you would 
see them. 

Mr. Timiney. Well, I make it a practice 

The Chairman. I mean, this is a plain restaurant, with little boys 
out there putting money in slot machines, right in plain view. You 
go down there right today, you will find that they pull a steel cover 
down over the slot machines. 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, they have done that ; yes. 

The Chairman. Why 'don't you get them out of there? 

Mr. Timiney. We have been taking them out of there. 

The Chairman. What? 

Mr. Timiney. Wo have been taking them out of there. 

The Chairman. Who operates that restaurant? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, there is a place called the Canary Cottage 



ORGANIZED CREV1E IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 251 

The Chairman. This is just a plain restaurant, and we went in 
several times. 

Mr. Timiney. Well, that is just a plain restaurant, the Canary- 
Cottage. 

The Chairman. Well, what I want to know is, Sheriff, how come 
these people operate like that in your bailiwick? I understand they 
operated under the preceding sheriff — what was his name '. 

Mr. Timiney. Hennessey. 

The Chairman. And he is supposed to be sick ? 

Mr. Timiney. No; he is here. 

The Chairman. He is here. He is going to come in. 

They operated under him and you ran on a reform platform, but 
you didn't reform; they just continued on like they were. Didn't 
you run on a reform platform of some kind ? 

Mr. Timiney. No, I didn't. 

The Chairman. You didn't? 

Mr. Timiney. No. 

Mr. Nellis. What was your platform? 

Mr. Timiney. My platform was to get rid of gangsters. 

The Chairman. Well, your platform was to get rid of gangsters, 
but these places kept on running after you got elected. 

Mr. Timiney. Well, there are none of those gangsters now. 

The Chairman. They closed down last Sunday night. 

Mr. Timiney. They have been closed longer than that. 

The Chairman. Sir? 

Mr. Timiney. They have been closed for longer than that. 

The Chairman. I think if you ask around you will find they closed 
last Sunday night. We have been giving them warning for some time 
they ought to close down, but they closed last Sunday night. 

Mr. Timiney. I was here last Sunday night. Sunday afternoon; 
yes. 

The Chairman. Why didn't you close them? Why don't you go 
out and close them? Anybody can walk in those places and see the 
gambling. 

Mr. Timiney. We have been closing them. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, what sort of arrangement have you had 
with them to keep open ? 

Mr. Timiney. I have never made any arrangements with them to 
keep open. I can't give them permission to operate. 

The Chairman. I know, but what do they do to you so you keep 
them open? 

Mr. Timiney. They don't do nothing to me; they just try to 
sneak 

The Chairman. They all moved out of the city into the county, 
right on the edge of the city. 

Mr. Timiney. 1 don't think they have moved out of the city. 

The Chairman. Well, the big places, the Pines, and the Chester- 
field, and the Webster. 

Mr. Timiney. The Pines was never in the city. 

The Chairman. What? 

Mr. Timiney. It was never in the city. 

The Chairman. I say they all moved out of the city, but at least 
they are all out in the county. 

GS958 — 51 — pt. 6— — 17 



252 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Timiney. They never was in the city. 

The Chairman. But the puzzling thing is they can't operate in the 
city, but they operate out in the county, where you are the sheriff. 
We don't understand. 

Now, who are these clubs registered in the name of. What is the 
name on the liquor license ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, they don't have a liquor license. 

The Chairman. Well, they must have a license to do business. 

Mr. Timiney. 'Not to operate those clubs. 

The Chairman. Well, they must have a license to serve food. They 
have to get that somewhere. 

Mr. Timiney. Well, that is separate. 

The Chairman. Who are they registered with ? With the clerk of 
the court, or who are they registered with to get their permit to 
operate ? Whose name are they in ? 

Mr. Timiney. They come under the auditor. 

The Chairman. What? 

Mr. Timiney. They come under the county auditor's office. 

The Chairman. All right. Whose name are they in? 

Mr. Timiney. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You haven't investigated to find out who operates 
these clubs ? 

Mr. Timiney. No. 

The Chairman. You don't know. 

Mr. Timiney., I don't have anybody that, has got a club license out 
there. 

The Chairman. Well, they operate. Don't you see, whether they 
have got a license or not, they are operating. As a matter of fact, they 
have a license in the name of somebody in Detroit for quite a while, or 
did have ; isn't that right ? 

Mr. Timiney. Not that I know of. Outside of the Aranoffs ; they 
did live in Detroit, but they have been around Toledo for 25 years. 

The Chairman. The Aranoffs ? Where do they live now ? 

Mr. Timiney. In Toledo. 

The Chairman. And they came from Detroit ; didn't they ? 

Mr. Timiney. That is right. 

The Chairman. Where did the Fretty boys come from? 

Mr. Timiney. I think they were born and raised in Toledo. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, how much property have you got ? 

Mr. Timiney. Just one piece of property. 

The Chairman. What is that, your home ? 

Mr. Timiney. That is where I lived before I went in the sheriff's 
office. 

The Chairman. Where do you live now? 

Mr. Timiney. In the sheriff's office. 

The Chairman. What kind of automobile have you got? 

Mr. Timiney. A 1947 Buick. 

The Chairman. What sort of investments have you made in the last 
three years ? 

Mr. Timiney. I haven't made any investments. 

Mr. Nieeis. Do you own a Cadillac, too, sheriff? 

Mr. Timiney. No. 

The Chairman. You haven't made any investments at all? 

Mr. Timiney. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 253 

The Chairman. Sheriff, what explanation can you give for letting 
these places operate? 

Mr. Timinet. I don't know they operate. If I catch them oper- 
ating. I send my men out there to clean them out. 

The Chairman. "What ? 

Mr. Timinet. t send my men out there to clean them out. I don't 
give them permission to operate. 

The Chairman. Well, they have been operating pretty consistently 
until last Sunday night. 

Mr. Timiney. 'Well, that is news to me. 

The Chairman. All right.^ Mr. Halley, do you have any questions \ 

Mr. Halley. I was wondering when did you win this $6,000, sheriff' ? 
That you say you won in 1949, betting? Where did you win it? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, I won that over at the race track over in Detroit, 
and I won it out here — I mean out here, in Fort Miami track in Toledo. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what track specifically? What track did you 
win it at? 

Mr. Timiney. Hazel Park. 

Mr. Halley. And that is in Toledo ( 

Mr. Timiney. No; that is in Detroit. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have business that takes you to Detroit? 

Mr. Timiney. Sir? 

Mr. Halley. Do you have business that takes you to Detroit, or 
did you go there just to see the races ? 

Mr. Timiney. It is only an hour and 15 minutes' drive. 

Mr. Halley. You drive there ( 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. To see the races? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. On how many different occasions did you go there for 
the races ? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, probably 25 times, 30 times. 

Mr. Halley. 25 or 30 times ( 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Would that require you to take the whole day off? 

Mr. Timiney. No ; you can leave Toledo at 5 o'clock, 5 : 30, and be 
over there at the track at 8 : 30. 

Mr. Halley. What are these ? Night races ? 

Mr. Timiney. They have some night races and a day race. 

Mr. Halley. Where else did you bet on the horses ? 

Mr. Timiney. At Fort Meigs in Lucas County. 

Mr. Halley. Any place else? 

Mr. Timiney. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did this $6,000 represent a few big wins or a lot 
of little ones? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, I picked up some dough probably betting on 
a golf game or with my friends or with a fight. 

Mr. Halley. Whom did you win money from betting on a golf 
game? 

Mr. Timiney. On different fellows out of those golf courses that 
I know. 

Mr. Halley. For instance, whom would you say? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, Jim Kenny or Herb Pomerantz out to Sunny- 
dale £olf club. 



254 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hallet. Jim Tanny ? 

Mr. Timinet. Jim Kenny, yes. 

Mr. Hallet. K-e-n-n-y? 

Mr. Timinet. That's right. 

Mr. Hallet. How much did you win from him in 1949 playing 
golf? 

Mr. Timinet. Oh, I didn't play him; I am not good enough. He 
is a irood golfer. He owns the «olf 

Mr. Hallet. What did you bet on ( 

Mr. Timinet. Well, somebody that he is playing against or some- 
body that is playing against him. 

Mr. Hallet. How much did yon bet chasing Jimmy Kenny around 
the golf course ? 

Mr. Timinet. Oh, probably at different times $150, $200. 

Mr. Hallet. How much did you win \ 

Mr. Timinet. Well. I wouldn't know just exactly how much. 

Mr. Hallet. Well, I am trying to find out how you won the $6,000. 
Let's go back to the horse races. Did you win on a lot of small wagers 
or did you have any big killings that you can remember \ 

Mr. Timinet. Oh, sometimes you would run into a pretty good 
wager, a good bet. I have seen those fellows losing over there and 
win a couple of thousand dollars. 

Mr. Hallet. We are talking about your $6,000, not what some 
other fellows did. How did you win the $6,000 ? 

Mr. Timinet. Well, just betting because I know a lot of those fel- 
lows around those race tracks. 

Mr. Hallet. Was the betting on a lot of horses or on a few ? 

Mr. Timinet. Just a few. 

Mr. Hallet. Just a few? 

Mr. Timinet. That's right. 

Mr. Hallet. Can you remember any big winnings you made? Any 
particular horse? 

Mr. Timinet. Oh, I never 

Mr. Hallet. Any particular race? 

Mr. Timinet. I never won a big amount at any one race. 

Mr. Hallet. Did you ever win more than a thousand dollars on a 
race? 

Mr. Timinet. No. 

Mr. Hallet. Did you ever win as much as $500 on a race \ 

Mr. Timinet. I have won $500. 

Mr. Hallet. You have ? 

Mr. Timinet. Yes. 

Mr. Hallet. When did you win $500 on what race? 

Mr. Timinet. Well, I wouldn't — I don't remember the race. 

Mr. Hallet. What was the horse's name? 

Mr. Timinet. It was in the summer. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Hallet. When was it? Last summer? 

Mr. Timinet. In the summer, yes. 

Mi-. Hallet. The summer of 1950 or 

Mr. Timinet. 1949. 

Mr. IIaixf.v. How did you keep track of your winnings? Did you 
have a little book yon recorded them in? 

Mr. Timinet. I did have a Little book ; yes. 

Mr. Hallet. Do you still have the little book ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 255 

Mr. Timinet. No. When I went into that sheriff's office in 1949, 
I had some of the income-tax papers there, and it was in a little office 
and these were all in a folder, and the desk was so dirty that one of 
the deputies jnst threw them in the wastepaper basket and kept the 
folder. 

Mr. Halley. When was this? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, it was probably maybe late in the fall. 

Mr. Halley. Late in the fall? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How were yon able to estimate your winnings for 
1949 \ Did you just gness at it? 

Mr. Timiney. Just guessed at it; yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you win anything in 1950? 

Mr. Timiney. Not so much. 

Mr. Halley. How much did you win in 1950? 

Mr. Timiney. Oh, I probably — I won about maybe around close 
to a thousand dollars. 

Mr. Halley. Did you keep a record of it? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did yon say "Yes" or "No"*? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have it here? 

Mr. Timiney. No; I haven't. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't your subpena call for your financial records? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. for 1949 dating up to 1950. 

Mr. Halley. 1940 to date, Mr. Nellis tells me. Now, do you have 
your records of your winnings in 1950? 

Mr. Timiney. I have it home. I got a book at home. 

Mr. Halley. You have it at home? 

Mr. Timiney. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Does it show the particular horses and the particular 

. Yes ; I believe it does. 

It does? 

(Nodding head affirmatively.) 
Can you make that available to the committee ? 
. Yes. 

Will you get that to the committee some time tomor- 
row so we can see it and check it over ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, if I get back to Toledo. 

Mr. Halley. Why don't you mail it to us as soon as you get back to 
Toledo. 

Mr. Timiney. I can do that. 
Mr. Halley. Thank you. 
The Chairman. One more question. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know whether your deputies are pretty friendly 
with these gamblers you have mentioned, Fretty, Tony Paul ? 

Mr. Timiney. They may know some of them; naturally, being in 
our business, they are bound to contact them. 

Mr. Ne'lis. They know them pretty well, don't they, just about as 
well as you do? 
Mr. Timiney. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You know Tony Paul pretty well, don't you ? 
Mr. Timiney. Oh, I have known Tony Paul for, oh, 25 years. 



day ? 




Mr 


, Timiney. 


Mr 


, Halley. 


Mr. 


Timiney. 


Mr. 


Halley. 


Mr. 


Timiney. 


Mr. 


Halley. 



256 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. He is a pretty good citizen, isn't he ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, not always. 

Mr. Nellis. Please take your hand away ; I can't hear you. 

Mr. Timiney. Not always. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, what do you mean? 

The Chairman. All right, I think we have had enough of this 
sheriff. 

Mr. Nellis. I want to put in the record, Senator 

The Chairman. What is it ? 

Mr. Nellis. I merely want to put in the record, Senator, that this 
man has been arrested 24 times and that 

The Chairman. Tony Paul ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, sir, Tony Paul, alias Tony Scott or Newfield Scott, 
the worst character in the city of Cleveland for CO or more years. 

Mr. Halley. What is he now ? 

The Chairman. What does he do now ? 

Mr. Nellis. Sheriff, what does he do now ? 

Mr. Timiney. Well, he is connected with that clique, gambling. 

The Chairman. Have you ever arrested him, Sheriff ? 

Mr. Timiney. I believe I did years ago. 

The Chairman. I mean since you have been sheriff ? 

Mr. Timiney. No, no, no. 

The Chairman. All right, let the record be put in of Tony Scott, in 
the record, and sheriff, you send us your record. Exhibit No. 65 
and 66. 

(The records identified were thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibits Nos. 65 and 66, and appear in the appendix on pp. 462 and 
463.) 

The Chairman. Sheriff Hennessy, is he here ? 

Sheriff, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give to this 
committee will be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes. 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES L. HENNESSY 

Mr. Nellis. What is your name, sir? 
Mr. Hennessy. Charles L. Hennessy. 
The Chairman. Sit down, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you formerly sheriff of Lucas County? 
Mr. Hennessy. That's right. 
Mr. Nellis. For how many years? 
Mr. Hennessy. Eight. 
Mr. Nellis. And when did you leave office? 
Mr. Hennessy. January 1949. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you suppress gambling while vou were in office, 
Sheriff? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you hear of the Devon Club ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of a place was that ? 

Mr. Hennessy. That was a gambling establishment. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you inside ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you find there ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 257 

Mr. Hennessy. I found gambling paraphernalia, crap tables, other 
gambling paraphernalia such as slot machines. 

Mr. Nellis. Who ran that place? 

Mr. Hennessy. Well, there was several men running that place at 
the time. It was my understanding that Benjamin and Joseph 
Aranon", Benjamin and Joseph Fretty, and a man by the name of 
Schaub. 

Mr. Nellis. Who? 

Mr. Hennessy. Schaub. 

Mr. Nellis. Schaub? How do you spell that? 

Mr. Hennessy. I believe it is S-c-h-a-u-b. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of the Dixie Club, Toledo, Ohio ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of a place was it? 

Mr. Hennessy. That was the same. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was in that? 

Mr. Hennessy. A man by the name of Edward Warneke and Joe 
Morrisey. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is that? 

Mr. Hennessy. Joseph Morrisey. 

Mr. Nellis. Morrisey? 

Mr. Hennessy. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he? 

Mr. Hennessy. He was one of the proprietors or the owners of the 
place. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he live in Toledo ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of the Club Elwood ? 

Mr. Hennessy. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of Peter Korado ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Or Koraldo? 

Mr. Hennessy. I have heard of the man; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. What have you heard about him ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I have just heard that he was one of the men in the 
so-called gambling fraternity. 

Mr. Nellis. What establishment? 

Mr. Hennessy. I don't know that. 

Mr. Nellis. Never heard of the Club Elwood ? 

Mr. Hennessy. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How about the North End Club ? 

Mr. Hennessy. (Shaking head negatively.) 

Mr. Nellis. Toledo, Ohio? 

Mr. Hennessy. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Not Toledo. They are all in the county. Are these 
places in Toledo or out in the county ? 

Mr. Hennessy. The places you formerly mentioned that I know of 
are in the county or were in the county. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever meet a man by the name of Joe Massey? 

Mr. Hennessy. No. 



258 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of him? 

Mr. Hennessy, Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What have you heard about him ? 

Mr. Hennessy. The same, that he was with the gambling fraternity. 

Mr. Nellis. What else ? 

Mr. Hennessy. That's all I know of. 

The Chairman. He came from Detroit. Is that Joe Bishoff ( 

Mr. ITalley. No, no. 

The Chairman. That is Lefty Clark, that's right. 

Mr. Nellis. You heard that he came from Detroit, didn't you, and 
that he was a pretty big man in gambling and criminal circles, didn't 
you ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I have heard that he was a Detroit man but as to his 
record, I was not familiar. 

Mr. Nellis. But as sheriff you knew that he was a pretty important 
criminal, didn't you ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I can's say that I did. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that he ran, or, rather, had an interest 
in the Club Devon ? 

Mr. Hennessy. No; I did not. 

Mr. Nellis. In 1943 ? 

Mr. Hennessy. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that he and Louis Walker and Peter 
Korado had an interest in the Club Devon in Toledo during your 
term as sheriff? 

Mr. Hennessy. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You didn't know that ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I didn't know that they had one. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever raid the pi act 1 ( 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir ; many times. 

Mr. Nellis. Who did you find on the premises ? 

Mr. Hennessy. To qualify that, I personally did not make the raids ; 
my chief deputy of the criminal branch of my office did that, raiding. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that your practice, Sheriff? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Never to accompany your deputies on an important 
raid? 

Mr. Hennessy. The first 3 months of my term in office I conducted 
all raids and after that I turned it over to my chief deputies. 

Mr. Nellis. Why is that, sir ? 

Mr. Hennessy. That has always been my practice. 

Mr. Nellis. Why? 

Mr. Hennessy. Well, I have plenty of other work to take up my 
time without taking up that work 

Mr. Nellis. Well, isn't it a fact that under Ohio law your chief 
duty is that of law-enforcement officer? 

Mr. Hennessy. That is right. 

Mr. Nellts. In the county. To see to it that the laws of the State 
are enforced? 

Mr. Hennessy. Right. 

Mr. Nellis. To see to it that the gamblers and the criminals and 
the gangsters are kept out of your county? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 259 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't that your first duty? 

Mr. Hennessy. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that — oh, you testified that you knew 
about the Dixie Club; is that right? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Where was that? 

Mr. Hennessy. The Dixie was on Detroit Avenue in 4800. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that outside the city? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that Mr. Massey had an interest in that 
in 1945 I 

Mr. Hennessey. I did not. 

Mr. Nellis. You are surprised? 

Mr. Hennessy. No; I am not surprised. 

Mr. Nellis. You heard it then? 

Mr. Hennessy. I did not hear it until now 7 . 

Mr. Nellis. Well, then, why do you say you are not surprised? 

Mr. Hennessy. Well, t am not surprised that anyone may be in a 
gambling fraternity. 

Mr. Nellis. Even a big-time gambler like Massey settling in a place, 
a small place like Toledo, relatively small place ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I didn't know that he was living in Toledo. 

Mr. Nellis. I didn't say lie was living there. I said that he was in 
that club. 

Mr. Hennessy. I did not, no. 

Mr. Nellis. How about the Club Elwood ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I don't know about the Club Elwood. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that he, that is, Joe Massej 7 and Peter 
Korado were partners in the Club Elwood? 

Mr. Hennessy. I did not. May I ask a question, please? 

Mr. Nellis. Surely. 

Mr. Hennessy. Where was the Elwood Club located? 

Mr. Nellis. The only information we have is from Mr. Massey's 
own statements that it was located in Toledo, Ohio, possibly outside 
the city but surely in Lucas County, E-1-w-o-o-d. And the North End 
Club, you knew that, didn't you ? 

Mr. Hennessy. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Never heard of it ? 

( No response. ) 

Mr. Nellis. In 1917 Mr. Massey drew quite a substantial income 
from that place. Now, Sheriff, why didn't you enforce the law in your 
county at the time you were sheriff? 

Mr. Hennessy. I did. 

Mr. Nellis. In what way? 

Mr. Hennessy. I did more about gambling in Lucas County in the ft 
years that I was there, to my knowledge, than anyone who ever held 
that office previous to my time. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever make a statement to the press that von 
are responsible for the gambling in Lucas Countv ? 

Mr. Hennessy. That I was? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you explain that, please? 



260 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Hennessy. I assume full responsibility for the policing of the 
county outside the city limits. 

Mr. Nellis. So you were responsible for the gambling ? 

Mr. Hennessy. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that right? 

Mr. Hennessy. Right. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions at this time. 

The Chairman. How about the Webster Inn right under that up d«»r 
pass and up on the right that was operating ? 

Mr. Hennessy. That was located in the county as well. 

The Chairman. That is the Fretti brothers. 

Mr. Hennessy. I closed those two places you mentioned the first 
year I took office. 

The Chairman. Why didn't you keep them closed ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I did keep them closed. 

The Chairman. They were operating while you were sheriff. 

The Sheriff. Not after they were closed. 

The Chairman. And when you were sheriff they operated, is that 
right? 

Mr. Hennessy. When I first took office, they did. 

The Chairman. And the Pines Club was operated when you were 
in. 

Mr. Hennessy. The Times ? 

The Chairman. The Pines. 

Mr. Hennessy. That did not operate while I was there, to my 
knowledge. It was a new buildin, and I believe on Alexis Road. 

The Chairman. You saw it there ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I checked the building while it was being built, and 
a man by the name of Larsen who was drilling a well there gave me 
the information that the fence they were putting around the place 
led him to believe they were building another gambling house in the 
county. 

The Chairman. Did you ever raid it ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I never raided it because I never knew there was 
gambling in the place. 

The Chairman. The Chesterfield Club, did you ever raid it ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I did. 

The Chairman. How many times ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Several times, but I couldn't tell you the exact num- 
ber. 

The Chairman. Did you close it down permanently ? 

Mr. Hennessy. We did. 

The Chairman. The Victory Club, did you close that down ? 

Mr. Hennessy. We did. 

The Chairman. Permanently? 

Mr. Hennessy. Permanently. However, these clubs would stop and 
start. 

The Chairman. You would close them down one day, and they 
would start up the next day ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Not necessarily the following day, but they would 
come back, and when they came back and we received any information 
at all we immediately went out and placed our men and closed them. 

The Chairman. This sheriff who was in here a few minutes ago 
ran against you on a law-enforcement program, didn't he? That is, 
he was going to enforce the laws where you hadn't ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 261 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Clubs that ran wide open during your administra- 
tion he was going to enforce a law on, is that right ? 

Mr. Hennessy. They were not running during the time he was 
campaigning. 

The Chairman. I mean that was the idea though? 

Mr. Hennessy. That's right. 

The Chairman. So the people decided that you hadn't closed the 
places down, and they elected him, and they still run? 

Mr. Hennessy. Well, I can't say that they were running after I left, 
but I had a lot of trouble while I was there. 

The Chairman. Did you make an investigation to find out what 
the Detroit interests in these clubs were? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, on numerous occasion. 

The Chairman. Who owned the clubs? 

Mr. Hennessy. All of the clubs, or just the 

The Chairman. The various ones of them. 

Mr. Hennessy. Well, the Dixie Club was owned by Edward AVar- 
neke and Joe Morrisey. 

The Chairman. Where do they live? 

Mr. Hennessy. Tliey live in Toledo, or did live at that time. 

The Chairman. And how about the Webster Inn? Who owned 
that? 

Mr. Hennessy. The Webster Inn, there were a number of men in 
that club, and I am not sure who they all were. 

The Chairman. Well, didn't you investigate the license to see if 
somebody in Detroit owned some of it ? 

Mr. Hennessy. We did that. Could I refer to some of my records? 
I have just a few notes here that I have made. 

Mr. Chairman. Surely. 

Mr. Hennessy. Would you care to take a look at that? 

Mr. Nellis. What is it? 

This is a document entitled "Report of Achievement, 1941 to 1948." 
.Mr. Hennessy. The reason I mentioned that, I would like to call 
to your attention that all those who may be interested in what I am 
saying, that a sheriff patrolling the county the size of Lucas County 
has much responsibility, and I gave all the time and my men gave all 
the time that we could to the enforcement of this law. 

I keep a yearly report of every form of activity under my com- 
mand. When we make these raids, remember, you don't do it with 
a couple of men, and when you have but 21 uniformed men to carry 
on this work, it is necessary to call those who are off duty back to that 
duty, and most of that work is done on their own time. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, don't you think if you just let these people 
know you are not going to tolerate their places running, they are 
going to close up ? 

Mr. Hennessy. I did let them know. 

The Chairman. But they went on \ 

Mr. Hennessy. Not as much. 

The Chairman. I know it, but they still continued to open up. 

Mr. Hennessy. That holds true, I grant you, but nevertheless I 
gave every bit of time possible, and there was at no time— and you 
could question any man or woman that ever worked under my com- 



262 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

mand, they will tell you the same, that we gave more time to that than 
any other work. I was able 

The Chairman. Well, why didn't you just pull their gambling 
equipment out? 

Mr. Hennessy. We did. 

The Chairman. Their wire service. 

Mr. Hennessy. I broke up more than 400 pieces of gambling para- 
phernalia when I was in that office. When I say "I" I mean my men. 

The Chairman. Well, they wouldn't tolerate that every so often, 
if you continued to do it. 

Mr. Hennessy. We continued to do it. 

The Chairman. And still they operated. 

Mr. Hennessy. I put men in their places to guard the doors of 
those places, but, I repeat, with the few men I had, I couldn't keep 
them there, and as soon as we left — I might mention that when I first 
started to close one of the establishments, they built partitions in 
the building, and would go from one room to the other when my men 
were there. 

The Chairman. While your men were there they would go from one 
room to the other ? 

Mr. Hennessy. That is true. 

The Chairman. All right, sheriff. We would be glad to receive 
this in the record. 

This is the number of arrests you have made, and things of that sort. 

(Sheriff Hennessy 's report of achievement is identified as exhibit 
No. 67, and appears in the appendix on p. 464.) 

Mr. Hennessy. I have a list here I could leave with you, if you 
care. I will tell you, my records, when I left office I moved from the 
city and I didn't have a home in the city at the time, and they were 
stored, and I was notified at 7 : 30 in the evening and was told to be 
here the next morning at 10, and I got what records I could together. 

Mr. Nellis. Sheriff, one last question. Mr. Chairman ? 

Mr. Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What is your net worth at the present time? 

Mr. Hennessy. My net worth? 

Mr. Nellis. Roughty. 

Mr. Hennessy. Oh, I have a farm that I paid — I think, $14,500 
for, and I would say I have added $5,000 or $6,000 to it. 

Mr. Nellis. Paid up ? You own it ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What else? 

Mr. Hennessy. I am building a home in the cit} T of Toledo. 

Mr. Nellis. What is goino; to be the cost of it? 

Mr. Hennessy. About $12,500. 

Mr. Nellis. Anything else? 

Mr. Hennessy. That is all. 

Mr. Neltjs. Do you own an automobile? 

Mr. Hennessy. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind? 

Mr. Hennessy. Dodge. 

Mr. Nellts. What year? 

Mr. Hennessy. 1950. 



ORGANIZED GRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 263 

Mr. Nellis. Does your wife own a car? 

Mr. Hennessy. That is her car. 

Mr. Nellis. It is her car? 

Mr. Hennessy. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the best salary— oh, I am sorry, Mr. Chair- 
man. 

The Chairman. You have a farm out somewhere from Toledo? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many acres about ( 

Mr. Hennessy. 116. 

The Chairman. 116? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is that where you live now ? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes, sir ; Grand Rapids, Ohio. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the highest salary you received as sheriff? 

Mr. Hennessy. $1,888. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have any income from any other sources while 
you were sheriff? 

Mr. Hennessy. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What source '. 

Mr. Hennessy. I had a dairy farm. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you acquire that? 

Mr. Hennessy. I started it in 1912. 

Mr. Nellis. You were sheriff then? 

Mr. HiNNLssY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Any other income from any other sources, did any of 
the men you have mentioned ever give you any money ? 

Mr. Hennessy. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. For any purpose ? 

Mr. Hennessy. No. sir 

Mr. Nellis. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Any questions? 

Mr. Hallly. None. 

The Chairman. All right, sheriff, thank you. This report will be 
made exhibit No. 68 to your testimony. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as ex- 
hibit No. 68, and is on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Hennessy. Would you like to have this one, too? 

Mr. Chairman. Yes, sir. Let me see it. 

Call Mr. Polizzi, please. 

Mr. Hennessy. I have a few notes on the back of this that don't 
mean anything. 

The Chairman. Let's see it. Maybe I can give it back to you. 
This record that you have left us, sheriff, if you have no objection,, 
we will make an exhibit to your testimony. 

Mr. Hennessy. Not at all. 

(The Chairman refers to exhibit No. 67.) 

The Chairman. All right, that is all. 



264 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF ALFRED POLIZZI, CORAL GABLES, FLA., 
ACCOMPANIED BY PARKER FULTON, ATTORNEY, CLEVELAND, 
OHIO 

The Chairman. Mr. Polizzi, you have been sworn? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Fulton. I know that this has been a very arduous day for you 
gentlemen, and I assure you that I shall do nothing which will increase 
that character of the day. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Fulton. 

Mr. Fulton. I would like the record, however, to show this, that I 
have an objection to each and every question that will be asked, and 
second, whenever I do make an objection, and if no reason is stated, 
the objection is on the ground that both the question and the answer 
embrace a subject matter not pertinent to the inquiry. 

When I make an objection and state a reason other than that, I 
should like the record to show that that is included also as the reason. 

The Chairman. All right, we will agree with you 

Mr. Fulton. Moreover, when I make an objection, it will be ad- 
dressed to the committee, and to the chairman. I shall engage in no 
altercations with counsel, personalities, or anything else. 

Mr. Nellis. Thank you, Mr. Fulton. 

The Chairman. We will understand that, and we will agree with 
you. All right. Let's get down to the situation. 

Mr. Nellis. What is your name ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Alfred Polizzi. 

Mr. Nellis. And where do you live ? 

Mr. Polizzi. 8657 Granada Boulevard, Coral Gables, Fla. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you try to speak up ? 

Mr. Polizzi. 6857, 1 am sorry. I am a little bit nervous. 

The Chairman. What boulevard? 

Mr. Polizzi. Granada. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been known by any name other than 
Albert Polizzi ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Not that I know of. It is Alfred Polizzi. 

Mr. Nellis. I am sorry. Alfred Polizzi. 

Mr. Polizzi. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been known as Albert Allen? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. I don't know. I don't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't remember that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't remember of being called that ; no. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you ever known by the name of Joe Lauri ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. 

Mr. Fulton. Keep your voice up. 

The Chairman. I can't hardly hear myself. Pull one of those 
microphones closer to you, maybe we can hear better. 

Mr. Polizzi. Is this better ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Harris. What was the first time, do you recall ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I really couldn't tell you what is was for. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 265 

Mr. Nellis. Back in 1920 

Mr. Fulton. I object to that, I am very, very definite on that 
objection. It goes back to a period quite remote. 

The Chairman. I expect yon may have some connection to make, 
to recent times. I don't know the purpose of the question. 

Mr. Fulton. I am quite sure 

The Chairman. For the time being, we will overrule the objection. 

Mr. Fulton. If it relates to an act done allegedly wrong, those acts 
were purely local, could have no connection with any crime in inter- 
state commerce. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Fnlton. We understand your 
position. 

Mr. Fulton. I think we ought to have a secret session on matters 
of this kind. This man is now in business, a business that requires 
credit, a business that requires putting up surety bond. 

The Chairman. Is he living a good life; if he is, I am sure this 
hearing is not going to hurt him, Mr. Fulton. 

All right, Mr. Nellis. Proceed. 

Mr. Nellis. In 1926 were you sentenced to jail? Do you recall 
that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the charge? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe with reference to alcohol. 

Mr. Nfllis. Yon mean the National Prohibition Act? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the sentence ? Do you recall that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I think it was 6 months. 

Mr. Nellis. Was there a fine ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, of $1,000, I believe. 

Mr. Nellis. And yon served that time in the Federal penitentiary? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Where ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I think it was in Ohio here. 

Mr. Nellis. And in 1927, do you recall being held for 

Mr. Fulton. Would you wait just a moment, please? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Fulton. Well, I am going to object to an ansAver to that 
question. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the question? 

Mr. Fulton. It wasn't finished, bnt it was going back to another 
act 

Mr. Nellis. Well, in 1927, were you held in connection with suspi- 
cion of murder ? Do you recall that ? 

Mr Fulton I object to that question, if Your Honor please, and I 
take exception to — — 

The Chairman. If he was held, or if he wasn't held, let him tell. 
We are trying to get at his record. 

Mr. Nellis. Hyman Weisenberg. Do yon recall that? 

The Chairman. We have his record here. I think we might say 
here that we will save a lot of time if you put the record in and ask 
him about it. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, Senator, we will do it that way. 

I would like to put in evidence a record of Alfred Polizzi, alias 
Albert Polizzi, alias Albert Allen, prepared by the scientific identifi- 
cation bureau of the police department of Cleveland, Ohio. 



266 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Fulton. I object to that. I don't want to be talking all the 
time, because I don't want to be obtrusive. 

The Chairman. Let's let Mr. Polizzi examine it, and if it is correct, 
well, then, that saves us a lot of time. 

Mr. Fulton. Before he answers that, I said at the outset that I was 
considering, even before this part of this matter started, the filing of 
an action which would determine the validity, sufficiency, meaning, 
impendment, and scope of the subpena, the status of this respondent 
in relation to the investigation. 

I still feel that ought to be done in the view of adjudicated cases, 
indeed in view of things that were sent as a minority report to in- 
vestigation into wire tapping where the St. Clair case, with which 
you gentlemen are familiar, was relied on, and I think even now this 
gentleman should have and be granted and afforded an opportunity 
for judicial determination of that question, and I should like to have 
this hearing continued and postponed so that that can be done, so that 
I can get a petition prepared and filed in an appropriate place, and 
I do think the appropriate place is in the District of Columbia where 
the United States Senate sits, and I respectfully request that in the 
interest of justice, in the interest of avoidance of compelling a man 
to talk about things that are in the remote past, maybe mistakes 
that have taken place, things that he has paid a penalty for if he has 
made them, to be brought up again in public gaze and destroy him 
if his efforts are in the right path. 

I would like to have that opportunity, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, we appreciate your position, Mr. Fulton, 
and, of course, you can file anything you want to. 

If Mr. Polizzi has reformed and has no longer any criminal activi- 
ties, I will try to say so, if I am convinced of that. We have a great 
deal of information about Mr. Polizzi which I think the committee 
must ask him about, and after the hearing is concluded, if it is shown 
that the contemporary history of Mr. Polizzi has turned to better- 
ways of life and he is no longer engaged in any activity, why, I will 
certainly be the first to applaud him for his change in ways. 

But for the present, Mr. Fulton, I should think that the situation 
about your client — his record is well known, it is publicly known. 
Mr. Polizzi should have an opportunity of explaining it. 

The application will be denied at this time. 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator, please. I want to say something, please. 
May I ? 

The Chairman. All right. You may say anything you want to. 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator, I have led — ever since 1944 when I left Cleve- 
land, I left for one purpose, and that was to get all the way away from 
all this old stuff that has been throwed at me time and time again, 
and I have had nothing else but heartaches. 

I haven't made all of my money illegitimately, most of it was made 
legitimately. I did have some — I started perhaps the wrong way 

The Chairman. Mr. Polizzi, tell us about it. I mean, we will be 
the first to admit 

Mr. Polizzi. The only thing is, it has been hashed over in the 
newspapers. 

The Chairman. I understood yon left Cleveland in L940 or L941, 
didn't you ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 267 

Mr. Poltzzi. I left in 1945. 

The Chairman. I understood your history was, Mr. Polizzi, that 
about 1940, you told all your friends you were going straight, and 
then you got involved again in the year 1945. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I did. Not in 1940, but that was even before 
that, sir, and I did make that mistake, and that mistake I certainly 
wouldn't want to make it again. I did make a mistake that was no 
fault of mine, and I didn't think it was a mistake at that time. It 
turned out to be a mistake. 

The Chairman. You were involved in violation of the Prohibition 
Act in 1945 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. In 1944, sir. 

The Chairman. I mean, the alcohol tax. 

Mr. Polizzi. I made no money in that transact ion, Senator. 

The Chairman. Well, a lot of times when you are apprehended 
of a difficulty you don't make any money in it. 

Mr. Polizzi. No, I absolutely 

The Chairman. Anyway, we want to know the part that you 
played in interstate commerce crime or in any illegal transactions 
involving interstate commerce, and you have occupied an important 
place ill a good many situations, and then after the hearing is over — 
I mean, after we conclude, why, if you say that you have reformed 
and you are going straight, why, this committee will be the first 
to applaud you in your efforts. 

Mr. Pclizzi. Thank you. Senator, but I am fully aware that I 
am testifying under oath, and I made a statement here when I first 
was sworn with reference to organized crime. 

The Chairman. You said that you were not now engaged in any 
organized crime. 

Mr. Polizzi. That is true. 

The Chairman. But, of course, a lot of people were engaged in it 
6 months ago who are not engaged now. 

Mr. Polizzi. I will say since 1944. 

The Chairman. Let's see what you have done. A few questions 
won't do you any harm. Let's see what you have been involved in. 

Mr. Fulton. I will so ■ 

The Chairman. The issue has been presented, Mr. Fulton, and we 
are going to go into Mr. Polizzi's activities, and that is that. 

Mr. Fulton. I wanted to mention one other thing, if I might. I 
am going to speak of two things very briefly : No. 1, this 1944 matter 
to which reference has been made, I w y as counsel, not for Mr. Polizzi, 
but his codefendant. I know that case. 

The Chairman. We don't want to retry the case. He was con- 
victed, or he pled guilty, one or the other, and we can't go back in the 
record in all of these matters. 

Mr. Fulton. In that instance, it was in this courtroom, and I re- 
fused to stand up and plead my man guilty. I wouldn't get out of 
my chair. 

The Chairman. Let's let Mr. Polizzi tell us about that. Let us 
start back at the beginning. Go ahead. 

Mr. Fulton. The second thing I want to say is, and then I will be 
through 

The Chairman. You have had your say. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 18 



268 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Fulton. There is one other thing, and then I am through. I 
understand — I don't know anything about this — but by reason of cer- 
tain publications concerning this man there is now pending a lawsuit 
by him against the publisher of Look for what, from his standpoint, is 
libel, and from what is allegedly libel from the standpoint of the 
publisher, and these" facts might be used by the other party in that 
lawsuit. Therefore, this ought to be done in secret. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fulton, if there are some facts that Mr. Po- 
lizzi wants to testify about that have reference to his character, why, 
of course, they should be used in the lawsuit. We have no control 
over what Look says about Mr. Polizzi or about him bringing suit 
against Look, but, of course, it is not a matter of our control. If 
every witness were to be excused because he brought a libel suit, 
we would have a lot of them bringing libel suits. 

Mr. Polizzi. May I say this? I brought suit against Look be- 
cause they accused me of being something that I am not, and I am not 
ducking the issue, they are. They are running away from me. I 
want them in court where the}^ will have to prove what I am, or I 
will prove to them that I am not what they claim I am. 

The Chairman. We can't do anything about your litigation with 
Look, Mr. Polizzi. 

Proceed. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman, I would like to put in evidence as an 
exhibit in connection with Mr. Polizzi, a department of 

The Chairman. Does Mr. Polizzi want to inquire about this record 
that is before him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Inasmuch as I would like to answer these questions, 
I am afraid that I will have to decline. 

The Chairman. All right. We will ask specific questions, and if 
you decline that is your own responsibility. 

Now, ask specific questions, Mr. Nellis, and I will rule on them 
as we go. 

Mr. Nellis. Handing you this paper, do you recognize the pictures 
on it? 

Mr. Polizzi. I would love to answer everything, only I just 

The Chairman. Either answer or not answer, Mr. Polizzi, 

Mr. Fulton. He will answer all questions about the past in a 
secret, not an open hearing. 

The Chairman. We decide whether we have an open or secret 
hearing. 

Mr. Fulton. I understand that. I concede your right to do that. 

The Chairman. The question is : Do you recognize the picture on 
the paper that has been furnished you ? 

Mr. Nellis. What is your answer, Mr. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Poltzzi. Yes ; I recognize the picture, but I 

Mr. Nellis. Who are the persons on the picture? 

Mr. Polizzi. Of course 

The Chairman. Let's get the answer. 

Mr. Fulton. He declines to answer any further questions about it. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fulton, it is up to him to decline to answer. 

Mr. Polizzi. I decline to answer, sir. 

The Chairman. The question is, do you recognize the pictures on 
the paper? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 269 

The Chairman. The next question : Is the picture of you ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. The next question : Will you read the record in 
connection with the picture and state whether that record states a 
record in connection with you. 

Mr. Polizzi. That I refuse to answer, sir. 

The Chairman. The chairman directs you to answer. Either say 
you will answer or you refuse to answer. 

Mr. Polizzi. I am sorry. As much as I would like to answer, I 
can't. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. Ask him another question. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Fred Garmone? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Was he the party with whom you were convicted in 
the Alcohol Tax Unit case? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Fulton. May I say something right there? It happens that 
this gentleman is a lawyer and now right at this moment — — 

The Chairman. Mr. Fulton, speak up so we can all hear. 

Mr. Fulton. He is engaged in the trial of a lawsuit. 

The Chairman. Who ? 

Mr. Fulton. The man whose name was just mentioned, defending 
a man not whose liberty but life is at stake. A thing like that get- 
ting to that jury might reflect greatly on that lawsuit. 

Mr. Nellis. I am not going to ask any questions about it. I merely 
asked him if he knew him. 

The Chairman. Defer any questions about Mr. Garmone. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Irving Levy of Miami Beach ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Irving Levy ? I don't recall the name. 

Mr. Nellis. Levy. 

Mr. Fulton. Speak up. 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't recall the name. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't recall that ? David Glass ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. Oh, pardon me. You mean Ike Levy ? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, his name is Irving, isn't it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Irving ? I know him as Ike. 

Mr. Nellis. The same man. 

Mr. Polizzi. I am sorry. I do know Ike Levy. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't he a partner of yours ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And David Glass? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And Benjamin Street? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you enter into a partnership agreement with them 
on the 15th of August 1946 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe that's the date. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the agreement about ? 

Mr. Polizzi. It is a partnership in a hotel lease. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the name of the hotel ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Sands 



270 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me? 

Mr. Polizzi. Sands. 

Mr. Nellis. On Miami Beach ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

The Chairman. Let's get the names of these people again. I 
didn't get them. 

Mr. Nellis. Senator, Irving Levy. 

The Chairman. That's Ike Levy? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, it is Irving in the agreement. I guess Mr. Polizzi 
knows him as Ike. David Glass of Miami Beach and Benjamin Street. 

Mr. Polizzi. That's correct. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, who is Mr. Levy ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Mr. Levy is associated in this Sands Hotel venture. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him? 

Mr. Polizzi. I have known him a few years, I wouldn't say too 
many. I was in business with him in 1946, perhaps when I first went 
down there, I would say. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of a business was that 1948, Mr. Polizzi? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's the Sands, I have been in therein partnership, 
has been 

Mr. Nellis. The partnership has been in effect since 1946 so it is 
the same thing you are talking about ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. Well, I have met him before that. 

Mr. Nellis. In what connection ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Just met him. I didn't — not socially. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is David Glass \ 

Mr. Polizzi. Also he is associated in the hotel business with me. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is he from? 

Mr. Polizzi. I understand he is from Philadelphia. I don't know — ■ 
I didn't know at the time I went into partnership where he was from. 
I thought he was from Miami ; I thought he had lived there for many 
years. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Benjamin Street? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, he also is active in the hotel. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know him prior to this? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Nellis. In what connection ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I knew he operated a hotel. 

The Chairman. Where is he from ? 

Mr. Nellis. He is from Philadelphia originally, Mr. Chairman. 
Is that right, Mr. Polizzi? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe so, I found since that. 

Mr. Nellis. Aren't Mr. Glass and Mr. Street well known police 
characters from Philadelphia? 

Mr. Polizzi. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't know anything 

Mr. Polizzi. Only what I heard or read in a paper in an editorial — 
not an editorial but a new r s item that came out with reference to Street 
and Glass. » 

Mr. Nellis. What did you read about them? 

Mr. Polizzi. It said that they were arrested sometime ago, I don't 
know just when, but a long time ago in Philadelphia with reference 
to some business or other t hat wasn't holy. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 271 

Mr. Nellis. The two of them together or each one separately j 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether it was together or separately. 

Mr. Nellis. Your agreement called for an equal share \'ov the four 
of you or the three of you, rather— I am sorry, the four of yon. 

Mr. Polizzi. There is four. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. Equal shares in the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Air. Nellis. Would you describe this hotel to me ? I haven't seen it. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, the hotel is on the beach and it is on the ocean 
front, 

Mr. Nellis. How many rooms? 

Mr. Polizzi. It has about 104 rooms in it. It has a beautiful pool 
and cabanas, it has a patio, and the features that any nice hotel would 
have. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did it cost to acquire? 

Mr. Polizzi. The lease is $90,000 a year. 

Mr. Nellis. Oh, you leased it from somebody \ 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was that from? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, we leased it from — there was an agent in the deal. 

Mr. Nellis. What was his name? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am trying to think of it. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, sir \ 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe you will find it in the partners' agreement. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I will hand it to you, and you see if you can find 
his name. 

Ninety thousand dollars a year you testified ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And you lease it from whom? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I know it is a Mrs. Hall, but he ented Mrs. 

Hall. I don't — I am terribly sorry ; I know that name very well. 

Mr. Nellis. It will come to you later." 

Mr. Polizzi. I hope so. 

Mr. Nellis. And the partnership agreement contained a provision 
by which David Glass was to receive a salary of ^'100 a week? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. What was that for ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Management, 

Mr. Nellis. What were his duties there? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, to oversee and help out in any way that he could, 
see that — in other words, he had management of the hotel, supervision. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of Herman Stark? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I have met Herman at the hotel several times. 
As a matter of fact, he had a cabana there. 

Mr. Nellis. Plow well do you know him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Only since I have been there. 

Mr. Nellis. And where is he from? 

Mr. Polizzi. I really couldn't tell you. I know that he isn't a 
local 

Mr. Nellis. From Philadelphia, isn't he? 

Mr. Polizzi. Perhaps. I am not certain. 



272 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Adoph M. Saltsman ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, he was the — he was a hotel chief clerk. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know a man by the name of Harry Stromberg? 

Mr. Polizzi. Harry Stromberg ? 

Mr. Nellis. From Philadelphia. 

Mr. Polizzi. I may know him. 

Mr. Nellis. Nig Rosen ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I have heard of him. And I believe I have met him. 

Mr. Nellis. It was at the Sands Hotel, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether it was or not. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. I don't know the man well enough to 
know. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, how many times have you met him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I really couldn't tell you. If I did meet him, it was 
just to say the time of day. 

Mr. Nellis. When was the last time you saw him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I really couldn't — I don't recall. I know it has been 
a long time. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know "Mussy" Rosen, his brother ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. 

Mr. Nellis. From Philadelphia. 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Or Willie Weisburg? 

Mr. Polizzi. I have met him, too, but I don't know. I don't know 
these people ; I have just met them. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was Willie Weisburg ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know anything about him. 

Mr. Nellis. You have met him at the Sands Hotel, haven't you? 

Mr. Polizzi. I couldn't say whether it was the Sands Hotel, al- 
though they have been there, and I know for sure that they lived there, 
but whether I met them there, 'of course I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I assume you had a cabana there. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Nellis. And they came around and sat around and talked to 
you ; didn't they ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I talked to most of the guests. 

Mr. Nellis. Most of the gang ? Or most of the guests ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Guests. 

Mr. Nellis. Guests. Do you know Max Rothman ? Did you ever 
meet Max Rothman ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I might know him. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Known as "Chinkie?" 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't know whether I have or not. I have met 
lots of people. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, you have met lots of certain people; yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I have met lots of every kind of people. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Samuel "Cappj '' Hoffman : 

Mr. Polizzi. I have met him, too. 

Mr. Nellis. He lives at the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe he did. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, who is he? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know anything about him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 273 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't he the top muscleman in the Nig Rosen mob in 
Philadelphia ? 

Mr. Polizzi. If he is, I don't know anything about him. 

Mr. Fulton. I object to the question, with language like that in it. 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking the witness whether he knows. We are 
getting along very well. 

Mr. Fulton. I object; I am objecting to the chairman. 

The Chairman. All right. I will sustain the objection. 

Do you know if he is a strong-arm man in the gang of Nig Rosen? 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Irving Greenberg? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think I know him. 

Mr. Nellis. He lives at the Sands Hotel ; doesn't he? 

Mr. Polizzi. Perhaps he did. 

Mr. Nellis. Now. Mr. Polizzi, do you know Willie Moretti ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I might have met the gentleman. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know him as Willie Moore? 

Mr. Polizzi. I might have met him, but I don't 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you meet him, Mr. Polizzi '. 

Mr. Polizzi. I couldn't tell you. I don't know. If I have met 
him — I have met lots of people, and for me to remember exactly where 
I met him, I would be guessing. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, Mr. Moretti told us in Washington that he "knows 
you well." That is a quote from him. 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't care what he says. Let him say that to me. 
I don't know the gentleman. I have never — I have never associated 
with him, never had any business with him ; I don't know how I could 
know him. I might know him 

Mr. Nellis. Is he basking in your reflected glory when he says he 
"knows you well" ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't quite get the question. 

Mr. Fulton. You mean there is too much rhetoric in the question ? 

Mr. Nellis. I withdraw the question. It is perfectly all right. 

Who is John Rosselli ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know him. 

Mr. Nellis. Out in California, Johnny Rosselli. 

Mr. Polizzi. I have read about him, but I don't know him. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, he says he knows you. 

Mr. Polizzi. Perhaps he says he knows me. Maybe he does ; maybe 
he don't. But I don't know him. 

I might have met the man ; I don't know. I mean, just meeting a 
man, is that knowing him ? I have met lots of people. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, he testified in our California hearings under oath 
that he knows you. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, perhaps he did. but I am telling you that as far 
as I am concerned I might have met him, but I don't know. I am not 
saying this for effect. I mean exactly 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Jack Dragna, of California ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't. I have heard the name. 

Mr. Nellis. You never met him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I might have. 

Mr. Nellis. Where? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. I have met lots of people. 



274 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Well. Jack Dragna testified in California — or, rather, 
in Chicago, wasn't it, Senator? — that he knows you. He met yon 
"out on the west coast." That is a quote. 

Mr. Polizzi. I have been out on the west coast. Perhaps it might be. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, you met him out there, didn't you? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether I did or not. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, he says you did, under oath. 

Mr. Polizzi. As I said before, I might have met him. I don't 
remember. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Paul Ricca— "The Waiter"? Paul "The 
Waiter" Ricca? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I have read about him, and I don't know ; I might 
have met him, too. 

Mr. Nellis. He testified under oath that he knows you. 

Do you know Little Augie 

The Chairman. Well, that is DeLucia. 

Mr. Nellis. Ricca? 

The Chairman. Well, Ricca, but the same name. 

Mr. Nellis. Paul DeLucia? Is that right, Senator ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know him as Paul DeLucia — Paul "The 
Waiter"? 

Mr. Polizzi. If you have reference to that person that — I don't 
know whether I met him or not. I think J might have met him. I 
don't know. I am not so certain. 

That is the — I am trying to be candid, here, and frank. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. And if I did meet him I would tell you so. I can't 
quite recall. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Joe Doto, alias Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You never met him ? 

Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I might have met him. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever meet his brother Jake ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you meet them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. In Florida. 

Mr. Nellis. At the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis: At the Wofford? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. I was out to the — I was out one New Year's Eve 
to that club out there. 

Mr. Nellis. What place is that? 

Mr. Polizzi. The Colonial Inn. 

Mr. Nellis. And that was the only time you met them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe so. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of place was the Colonial Inn? Do you 
remember? 

Mr. Polizzi. Very beautiful spot. 

Mr. Nellis. A gambling casino ? 

All'. Polizzi. I believe so. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know the Angersolas, John, George, Freddy? 

Mr. Polizzi. Very well. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275 

Mr. Nellis. You have had real-estate transactions with them '. 

Mr. PolizZi. With John. 

Mr. Nellis. With John? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Consisting of what? 

Mr. Polizzi. Some lots that were purchased — in the Gables. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, what was the value of the lots, when you bought 
them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I made the deal for John and my wife both. I 
recommended — my wife sold a piece of property here in Cleveland, 
and she had some money, and I was looking around for an invest- 
ment for her. I found sonic lots that I thought were a pretty good 
value, and I didn't want all of the lots, and I asked Mr. King if he 
would like to go 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Mr. King? 

Mr. Polizzi. This Angersola, John King. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, his name is Angersola ; isn't it? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I have always known him as John King. 

Mr. Nellis. Go ahead. 

Mr. Polizzi. And he said he was interested; and, of course, I nego- 
tiated the deal for them to buy these lots in this particular location. 

Mr. Nellis. And how much did you pay for your share of the lots? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe the lots were $500 a lot; that is what they ran. 

Mr. Nellis. How many were there? 

Mr. Pollizzi. And there was some 39 lots. 

Mr. Nellis. About $20,000; right? 

Mr. Polizzi. In that figure. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any real-estate transactions with Mr. 
McBride? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you tell us a little bit briefly about those? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, we still have some property 

Mr. Nellis. University Estates? 

Mr. Polizzi. University Estates. 

Mr. Nellis. How did 3^011 happen to get into that, Mr. Polizzi? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, when I first went to Miami, I was looking around 
for investments, naturally. I pulled out away from here, and I took 
what little possessions I had; and I didn't want to get into anything 
right offhand, so I looked around to see what I could do. 

And one man in particular that I knew, I went over to see him, this 
real-estate man. And I went to several real-estate men and told them 
that if they heard of anything that sounded good, to let me know, 
that I was in a market to buy. 

And one day I walked into this real-estate office, and this gentle- 
man said to me, "I think I have got a deal if you like it." 

And he told me about this particular property, and he told me, 
"Now, McBride is interested in this property with a fellow by the 
name of Frankel. I believe Frankel is going to pull out; and, if 
you are interested in purchasing Frankel's part, I will be very glad 
to submit it to McBride." 

So I went into the deal a little further, and I found out where the 
property was, what it was worth, and so forth and so on, as you would 
do, and I decided it was a fair deal. 



276 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Polizzi. I called Mr. McBride, and I asked him if there was 
any objection to me going into this proposition with him*, and he said 
none whatsoever. And I believe that Mr. Brown 

Mr. Nellis. When was the last time you saw Mr. McBride, Mr. 
Polizzi? 

The Chairman. Let him finish. 

Mr. Nellis. I am sorry; I thought you had finished. Did you 
finish your answer ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes; I finished. I saw him just a little while ago, 
when he was here, as a matter of fact. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you talk with him before you testified ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; we did. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you talk about ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I wanted to freshen my memory as well as his, 
about any deals that we might have had together. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Joe Massey ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Nellis, How well do you know him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I know him very well. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I understand he is in the meat business. 

Mr. Nellis. Does he have any other businesses ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That I don't know. I have heard that he has, from 
this meeting — — 

Mr. Nellis. Well, what have you heard ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I have heard that he has been interested in gambling 
houses and what not, but I don't know that; I never discussed that 
with him. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Charlie Fischetti ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Nellis. How well do you know him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know him too well, just to say "Hello." 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you. meet him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I met him in Miami. 

Mr. Nellis. How about Kocco ; do you know him, Rocco Fischetti, 
his brother ? 

Mr. Polizzi. His brother. I have met him, too. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know Al Capone? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Nellis. Never met him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I did not. 

Mr. Nellis. In 1940 did you have some income from a Buckeve 
Catering Co. ? 

Mr. Fulton. Object. 

Mr. Polizzi. Please. You know that's so old, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Fulton. I object to the remoteness of it. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Chairman 

The Chairman. All right. Were you in the Buckeve Catering Co. 
in 1940 ? That is the question. 

Mr. Fulton. We are right back to the same problem again. 

Mr. Polizzi. In 1940 ; no. 

Mi\ Nelllis. You are sure about that? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am positive. 

Mr. Nellis. 1940. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I was not. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, in 1940 you received the sum of 

The Chairman. Let me ask this question. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you in the Buckeye Catering Co. and, if so, 
when ? 

Mr. Fulton. I object to that question if the answer takes us back to 
this early period, for the reason I have given in the past. 

The Chairman. All right. We overrule your objection, Mr. Fulton. 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator, I don't like to answer those questions, it just 
takes me back and tears me all apart. 

The Chairman. I am sorry about that. You can tell it very dis- 
passionately, I am sure. 

Mr. Polizzi. I know. You know 

The Chairman. What was the Buckeye Catering Co. and were you 
in it and, if so, when ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I'm sorry, I can't answer that question. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, I must. 

The Chairman. Well, let the record show that the Chair directs 
you to answer. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you going to answer, Mr. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I can't answer that question. 

The Chairman. Speak up. You refuse to answer it? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer it. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Nellis. You know Tony Accardo? 

The Chairman. Let's ask a little bit more about the Buckeye Cater- 
ing Co. 

Mr. Nellis. I am coming back to that. What was the business of 
the Buckeye Catering? 

Mr. Fulton. Objection, the same grounds. Consistency would re- 
quire a declination to answer that question. Counsel will take the 
responsibility. 

The Chairman. Well, that's all right. The question is, do you 
know what the business of the Buckeye Catering Co. was? 

Mr. Fulton. Objection. 

The Chairman. Will you answer or not? 

Mr. Polizzi. I can't answer it, 

The Chairman. Well, speak up, Mr. Polizzi, you are a big man. Do 
you want to answer or do you not ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I would like to answer but I just 

Mr. Nellis. Why don't you, Mr. Polizzi ? 

The Chairman. Just a minute, 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't 

The Chairman. Will you answer or not? I mean, there is no use 
of arguing about it, 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; not in an open hearing. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Fulton. He says he refuses to answer in an open hearing. 

The Chairman. All right. The chairman directs you to answer. 
Do you refuse to follow the direction of the Chair? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, sir. 



278 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. You refuse? All right. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were your partners in the Buckeye Catering Co. ? 

Mr. Fulton. Objection. 

The Chairman. Well, did you have partners or associates in an or- 
ganization called the Buckeye Catering Co. ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Fulton. Objection. 

The Chairman. The chairman directs you to answer. 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Fulton. Let an objection be shown to any questions in relation 
to this enterprise, just to save time and 

The Chairman. Mr. Fulton, you started out and wanted the record 
to show you made objection to all questions. 

Mr. Fulton. That is right. 

The Chairman. So we 

Mr. Fulton. Now I want a specific one to this fact because of this 
refusal here at this point. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Fulton. I don't want to object to each question. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the Skill Amusement Co. ? Did vou ever hear 
of that? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't think so. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't think so. Didn't you show some income from 
Skill Amusement Co. ? Do you recall any income from that? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't recall it. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you receive any from Skill Amusement Co. ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't recall receiving any. I don't. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the City Vending Co.? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know that? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was Nathan and Francis Weisenberg ? 

Mr. Fulton. If Your Honor please, I don't understand the question. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were Nathan and Francis Weisenberg? 

The Chairman. Who are they or who were they? I don't know 
whether they are living or dead. 

Mr. Nellis. They are both dead, Senator. 

The Chairman. Did you know Nathan and Francis Weisenberg? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, sir ; I knew them. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you receive some income from a partnership 
with them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. The chairman directs you to answer it. 

Mr. Polizzi. I am sorry. 

Mr. Fulton. To what date does your question refer, may I ask? 

Mr. Nellis. 1940 and '41. 

Do you know James and Charles Polizzi? 

Mr. Polizzi. Pardon me. You say 1940 and '41 ? 

Mr. Nellis. 1940. 

Mr. Polizzi. That I received — I did not receive any income from 
that, 

Mr. Nellis. Will you answer the question as to who they arc and 
what business you were in with them? 

Mr. Polizzi. It takes us right back to where we started. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 279 

The Chairman. Well, the question is, were you in business with 
Nathan and who was the other? 
Mr. Nellis. Francis. 

The Chairman. And Francis 

Mr. Nellis. Weisenberg. 

The Chairman. Weisenberg-, and, if so. what was the business? 
Mr. Polizzi. I am trying to deliberate in my own mind. Senator. 
Yon will excuse me for taking a little time. I know that gentleman — 
I did know the gentleman. 1 did have business with Nathan Weis- 
enberg. 

Mr. Nellis. What sort of business? 
Mr. Polizzi. The Buckeye Catering. 

Mr. Nellis. I cant hear yon. 

Mr. Polizzi. The Buckeye Catering. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of a business was that '. 

Mr. Polizzi. That I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Nellis. Who were your other partners in that business? 

Mr. Polizzi. That I refuse to answer. 

The Chairmvn. Yon understand the chairman is directing you to 
answer these questions? 

Mr. Polizzi. I understand, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Vincent Mangine? Do you know him? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, very well. 

Mr. Nellis. Known as Doc Mangine? 

Mr. Polizzi. Very well. 

Mr. Nellis. Did yon have any business relationships with him? 

Mr. Polizzi. I had. 

Mr. Nellis. What were they ? 

Mr. Polizzi. He has some interest in the Thompson & Polizzi Con- 
struction. 

Mr. Nellis. How about back in 1940? 

Mr. Polizzi. In 1910; no. 

Mr. Nellis. Weren't you in a slot-machine business with him? 

Mr. !• ilton. Object to that question. 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

The Chairman. Well, were you? How did you answer it? 

Mr. Fulton. He answered ' : No." 

Mr. Nellts. He answered "No." 

Who is Morris C. Haas? 

Mr. Polizzi. He is a lawyer in the city. 

Mr. Nellis. Where? 

Mr. Polizzi. Morris C. Haas? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes; who is Morris C. Haas? 

Mr. Polizzi. The gentleman I know. I know the gentleman. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't he a brother of Sam Haas ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe so. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you have some business dealings with him back 
in 1910? 

Mr. Polizzi. Not in 1940. 

Mr. Nellis. 1941 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mi-. Nellis. 1 i)4i> ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 



280 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. 1943? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, then? 

Mr. Fulton. Object if that calls for an answer that goes back to 
this other period. 

Mr. Nellis, Well, when ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Nellis. You refuse to answer ? 

The Chairman. Let's get the question right, Were you in business 
or did you have some business 

Mr. Nellis. With Morris C. Haas in 1940. 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I didn't have anything to do with him in 1940. 

Mr. Nellis. Or within 10 years prior to 1940. What was your 
answer? 

Mr. Polizzi. I said that I didn't have anything to do with him in 
1940. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Polizzi, the question was, were you ever 
in business with Morris Haas and, if so, tell us when and what it was. 

Mr. Polizzi. I was in business with him but I don't — I don't care 
to discuss the nature. 

The Chairman. And you refuse to answer that question ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I said I was in business with him, Senator. 

The Chairman. Will you tell us the nature of the business? 

Mr. Polizzi. I can't, 

The Chairman. Well, let the record show the chairman directs 
you to tell the nature of the business. You refuse to do so ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to do so. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Samuel T. Haas? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. A number of years ; I don't know just how many years. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any business dealings with him? 

Mr. Polizzi. None. 

Mr. Nellis. You know Morris Kleinman? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. How well do you know him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I know him for many years. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any business dealings with him? 

Mr. Polizzi. None. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Moe Dalitz ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Many years. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have any business dealings with him? 

Mr. Polizzi. None. 

Mr. Nellis. Louis Kothkopf ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Of course, you know Chuck Polizzi ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is he ? 

Mr. Polizzi. He is in the coal business, if that's asking me who he is. 

Mi-. Nellis. Who is he? Isn't he related to you? 

The Chairman. Is he your brother, Chuck Polizzi ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No : he is not a brother. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 281 

The Chairman". He is not a brother? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis. How did he happen to have the same name? Is he 
related to you? 

Mr. Polizzi. There are a lot of Polizzis. 

Mr. Nellis. Is he related to you in any way ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I have always considered him a cousin. 

Mr. Nfxlis. A cousin ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right, so I have considered him a cousin for 
many years. 

Mr. Nellis. What business is he in? 

Mr. Polizzi. In the coal business. 

Mr. Nellis. Any other businesses that you know about ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That I don't know. 

Mr. Fulton. Mr. Chairman, just to get the record straight: The 
suggestion was made a moment ago by a question, the inference in the 
question being that the respondent here, the witness, and Chuck 
Polizzi have the same name. That is not correct. The name of one, 
I think, is Alfred, and the other is Albert. 

The Chairman. I think that we understand this is Albert. 

Mr. Polizzi. I am Alfred. 

The Chairman. This is Alfred? 

Mr. Fulton. That is Alfred. 

The Chairman. The other one is Chuck ? 

Mr. Fulton. That's right. 

The Chairman. And they are cousins ? 

Mr. Fulton. I guess if we use Al and Chuck we will keep them 
separate. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you been in business with him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of business ? 

Mr. Polizzi., Well, I was in a real-estate deal with Chuck. 

Mr. Nellis. When was that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. In the forties. 

Mr. Nellis. Any other deals ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What was that? 

Mr. Polizzi. That I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Well, you were in a gambling place with him, Mr. 
Polizzi. That is what we want to know. 

Mr. Polizzi. I know. 

The Chairman. Sir ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I say I know that. 

The Chairman. Do you want to tell us about it or not? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't want to answer the question. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. The chairman directs you to answer, and you 
refuse ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse. 

Mr. Fulton. Counsel would just like to point out here that if the 
implication intended by the question, and the inference is correct and 
accurate, it relates to a business and enterprise purely local and an 



282 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

activity quite remote from the present day as to time, and as to rele- 
vancy to the subject matter. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fulton, he won't even tell us whether he was 
in the business. We can't tell whether it was remote or not, 

Mr. Fulton. I addressed myself to the inference in the question. 

The Chairman. If he can tell us when it was, we might get at the 
thing. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Ralph O'Hara ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever met him? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Jack Guzik ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't. 

Mr. Nellis. You never met him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Never met him. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Anthony Milano? 

Mr. Polizzi. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Many years. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, he has got a bank, he has got the American 
Brotherhood Bank, and ho had, I believe, a newspaper. I don't know 
what else. 

Oh, yes, and an importing business. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know any other business that he had ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you two partners in a place at one time? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You and his brother, perhaps? 

Tell us about that please ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, we had an importing store that we bought and 
sold. 

Mr. Nellis. What? 

Mr. Polizzi. Wholesale groceries. 

Mr. Nellis. Where was that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That was on Mayfield, Mayfield Eoad. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the address of that place? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe it was 126 something, I don't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that a Venetian Cafe, or something like that, 
where you and Frank Milano had a restaurant ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, that is before. I don't know anything about 
that, 

Mr. Nellts. You weren't in that with Frank Milano? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

The Chairman. Were you in some other business with Frank Milano 
besides the one you talked about? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. 1 have no further questions at this time. T will have 
some later. 

The Chairman. Mr. Hallev. 

Mr. Hallet. Yes. 

Is in your position that starting in 1944 you went down to Florida 
to start a new life '. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 283 

Mr. Polizzi. I went in 1945 ; that's right. It was 1945. 

Mr. Fulton. You will pardon my having suggested that, because 
I know the dates of that trial and the date in the indictment. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I didn't quite remember. It is 1945. 

Mr. Halley. And since then, what has been your principal business ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, namely, construction and real estate and the 
hotel. 

Mr. Halley. And the hotel? 

Mr. Polizzi. Operation of a hotel- 

Mr. Halley. Who has been your principal associates ? 

Let's take them business by business. 

Mr. Polizzi. All right, In the hotel it was Ike Levy and David 
Glass and Benny Street, and — I want to correct that hotel thing in 
there, too. 

Mr. King is a partner of mine in the hotel business, not a partner to 
the partnership, but a partner of mine. 

Mr. Halley. You mean he lias a part of your interest? 

Mr. Polizzi. He has part of my interest. 

Mr. Halley. Which King is that? 

Mr. Polizzi. Mr. John King. 

Mr. Halley. John King? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Those are } r our sole associates in the hotel business? 
Is that right? 

Mr. Polizzi. I'm sorry. 

Mr. Halley. Those are your sole associates in the hotel business? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Glass had a long criminal record in Philadelphia, did 
he not ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I didn't know about it if he did. 

Mr. Halley. Well, now, you went down to Florida to start this new 
life ; did you check on the background of your new associates ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Mr. King was not a new associate. 

Mr. Halley. Well, Glass and Street were and Levy. 

Mr. Polizzi. They were recommended to me by Mr. King. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. King recommended your new associates? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you feel that Johnny King was a qualified person 
to lead you into this new path of straight living ? 

Mr. ^Polizzi. Well, I didn't think there was anything wrong in 
going in the hotel business, and it proved to be successful, so the ven- 
ture, from what I can see, is very good. 

Mr. Halley. It has been profitable, in any event ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. But, as far as you know, your asociates might or might 
not have a clean background ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I didn't know that. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't care? 

Mr. Polizzi. I didn't know whether they did or didn't. What I was 
doing was, I went into a business venture I thought I could make some 
money with. 

Mr. Halley. I understand that. What I am trying to find out— I 
will tell you just what I am thinking of. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 19 



284 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Polizzi. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Just as you were kind enough in telling the committee 
your reason for not testifying. 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. I presume that you just want to put that background 
behind you and not even talk about it. 

Mr. Polizzi. That's exactly right. 

Mr. Halley. I am merely trying to find out now if you put the 
background behind you. 

Mr. Polizzi. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you really go out and get yourself new, clean 
associates who had no criminal background, no racketeering past? 

Mr. Polizzi. I have. 

Mr. Halley. Who are the new associates you got? You say that 
in the hotel business John Angersola introduced you to some people, 
and you and he took an interest which you held, is that right ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And, of course, Angersola was one of your old 

Mr. Polizzi. Friends. 

Mr. Halley (continuing). Associates back here in Cleveland, is 
that right? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. And you had been in business ventures with 
Angersola ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. But they are of a nature that you just don't want to 
tell the committee about them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. I can only presume that you are ashamed to. 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right, Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Then we get to your other businesses. What are they ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Construction. 

Mr. Halley. We will just take that one. 

Who are you in business with? 

Mr. Pollizzi. I am in business with the Thompsons, that is Forrest 
Thompson and his two sons. 

Mr. Halley. Forrest Thompson. 

Mr. Polizzi. And Mr. Mangine, 

Mr. Halley. Mangine is an old associate of yours from back here 
in Cleveland ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Had you been in some business with Mangine back 
here in Cleveland? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Never been associated with him in any business ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know what business he had been in back here 
in Cleveland? 

Mi-. Polizzi. Mostly the saloon business. 

Mr. Halley. Mostly saloon ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And the gambling business? 

Mr. Polizzi. If he was, I didn't know anything about that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 285 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you know his reputation at the time you went 
into the construction business with him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I did know. 

The Chairman. I don't understand. You did know it? 

Mr. Polizzi. I did know; yes. Not I didn't. I did. 

The Chairman. You did know that he had a reputation of being a 
gambler back in Cleveland? 

Mr. Polizzi. Not exactly a gambler. 

The Chairman. Just what do you call not exactly a gambler? 

Mr. Polizzi. I guess there are many kinds of gamblers, Senator. 

The Chairman. Just a little bit of a gambler. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, you can gamble legitimately and you can gamble 
illegitimately as well. 

The_CHAiRMAN. Well, he had an interest in one of these places 
around here. You knew that. 

Mr. Polizzi. I will tell you truthfully I might have known, but I 
have known the gentleman 

The Chairman. The truth is you just didn't much care. I mean, 
you had an idea about it 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator, do you think I had much choice with 

Mr. Hallet. Let's get into that. 

How much money did you take with you when you left Cleveland 
behind and went to Florida? 

Mr. Polizzi. I took quite a sum. 

Mr. Hallet. How much? 

Mr. Fulton. I object to that. You can answer it if you wish, if 
you know. 

The Chairman. Well, the Chair directs you to answer. I don't care 
whether you answer specifically. I mean, we want to know about how 
much you went to Florida with. 

Mr. Polizzi. In excess of $100,000. 

Mr. Halle y. Shall we say in excess of $200,000? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, you can. 

Mr. Halley. Would I be right ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Let's try $300,000 for size. 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe you are still right. 

Mr. Halley. I am still right? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have a half million? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, not quite. We are getting close. 

Mr. Halley. Getting warm? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Would you say between $400,000 and a half million? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I really couldn't tell you. Now, if it came right 
down to how much I really have got, I really wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. No. How much you had ? 

Mr. Polizzi. When I went down there ? 

Mr. Halley. When you went to Florida. 

Mr. Polizzi. Just about the figure that you mentioned, say around 
approximately $300,000. 

Mr. Halley. $300,000 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Fulton. Aren't for my benefit, are they ? 



286 ORGANIZED CRIME. IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. I have a law partner named Fulton, and if you are 
one of the clan, I don't have to worry about you, your ability is there. 

Mr. Fulton. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Polizzi, you say you had very little choice about 
your associates. Still you went to Florida with this money. Was 
it in cash ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, not all of it. 

Mr. Halley. Was it liquid money? 

Mr. Polizzi. There was some liquid money, and the rest of it, of 
course, was property and bonds, and what do you have in that kind of 
money? You certainly wouldn't have cash. 

Mr. Halley. At that time did you have real-estate holdings ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where were they ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I had some in Florida. I had some here. 

Mr. Halley. What did you have in 1944 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I had lots, there was an apartment house, homes, 
and a number of assets. 

Mr. Halley. What did you have in Florida, say, in 1944 before you 
moved your residence from Cleveland to Florida ? 

What assets ? 

Mr. Polizzi. In Florida I had some lots. 

Mr. Halley. Did you own them yourself or with partners? 

Mr. Polizzi. I owned them — I don't know as to dates — I know I 
owned a lot of property, but now I am just trying to figure out whether 
1 owned it before or after. 

I did own some down there before, that is for sure. Now, I am not 
quite sure when I acquired the rest of the property. 

Mr. Halley. Well, we will make an allowance for a time lag, and 
assume that you memory wouldn't be perfect, but to your best recol- 
lection, what properties had you previously acquired in Florida before 
you moved your residence there? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I believe there was just some lots down there. 

Mr. Halley. Did you own them alone or with partners ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Partners. 

Mr. Halley. Who were your partners ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Mr. McBride was one of the partners. 

Mr. Halley. McBride? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And who else ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I think that Mr. King was another partner in it. 

Mr. Halley. King? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You and King and McBride were in some lots to- 
gether ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. This isn't this real-estate development where you hap- 
pened just to wander into a real-estate broker's office? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. And by accident buy into some more property with 
McBride? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. It is not. 

Mr. Halley. Let's get it straight. We are talking about Arthur 
B. McBride, Sr. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 287 

Mr. Polizzi. That is correct. 

Mr. Halley. When did you buy property in Florida with Mickey 
McBride? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe that was in 1937. 

Mr. Halley. 1937? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You held those lots right through to 1944 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe so. 1944 or 1945. 1945, 1 think. 

Mr. Halley. What other property did you have before you moved 
to Florida besides these lots? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, now 

Mr. Halley. Did you own any property in Cleveland ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Just generally describe it. 

Mr. Polizzi. That property now — that property is my wife's, would 
that be mine? 

Mr. Halley. Well, I will say you or your wife. 

Mr. Polizzi. All right. 

Mr. Fulton. Then I object. 

Mr. Halley. We will simplify the problem for you. 

Mr. Fulton. I object to the question. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, there is an objection. 

The Chairman. The property that your wife had, did it come from 
money you gave her ?• 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. I direct him to answer. I think it is 
a family arrangement. 

Mr. Polizzi. I will answer the question. 

Mr. Halley. What property, just generally ? 

Mr. Polizzi. An apartment house on Eighty-third Street. 

Mr. Halley. Anything else ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, a home on Leighton Road. 

Mr. Halley. Anything else ? 

Mr. Polizzi. It might have been — I can't quite recollect. You get 
fuzzy sitting here. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you started out fuzzy. 

Mr. Polizzi. I sure did. 

Mr. Halley. Did your wife have any part in this apartment house ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. In addition to these real properties, what liquid prop- 
erties did you have ? 

What part of your $300,000 that you took to Florida was in the 
form of liquid assets ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, bonds, insurance. 

Mr. Halley, Would you say in excess of $200,000 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. In bonds and insurance ? 

Mr. Halley. And cash. 

Mr. Polizzi. And cash ? About that. 

Mr. Halley. About that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. You said some time ago that you had very little 
choice in choosing your associates. 



288 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Wouldn't you, with that much money and those assets, be able 
to buy real estate and go into ventures without any difficulty in choos- 
ing associates ? 

Mr. Fulton. I object to that because the question contains an 
unwarranted assumption. 

The Chairman. All right. I think it is a very good question. 
Couldn't you get out on your own with that much money ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I have. 

Mr. Halley. We are talking about your associates. What we are 
trying to find out — and I agree with the chairman that it is a good 
question — I would like to know why you had to continue your busi- 
ness activities with the people you say you were trying to get away 
from. 

It seems to me all you changed was the location. 

Mr. Fulton. That is a different question. Now answer that one. 

Mr. Halley. That is another good one. 

Mr. Fulton. The other one was bad. You departed from it. 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. What somebody else considers wrong, 
I might think it is right. Maybe I am — maybe there is something 
wrong with me. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. 

Mr. Halley. I am addressing myself to one statement you made 
about 10 minutes ago when you said you had very little choice in choos- 
ing your associates. 

Mr. Fulton. I object. That is the reason I object. I think that is 
an assumption that is incorrect. 

Mr. Halley. Oh, no. He so stated, and that is what I was trying 
to 

Mr. Polizzi. I did say it. I said something like that. 

Mr. Halley. That is why I asked him about his assets. 

Mr. Fulton. Then I withdraw the objection. 

Mr. Polizzi. As I said before, as long as I thought I wasn't doing 
anything wrong, and that is my way of thinking, perhaps I am wrong, 
perhaps I am crazy, but if I am I would like to be straightened out — 
as long as I didn't do anything that was illegal in any way, shape, or 
form, and I had a legitimate business whereby it paid a profit on your 
investment, I thought it was good business. 

Mr. Halley. That is a point that you are entitled to make, but it is 
not the answer to the question. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I don't know what else I could say to that. 

Mr. Halley. You did have a free choice. You could have stayed 
away from your old Cleveland associates, isn't that a fact? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, it wouldn't be like me to do that. 

Mr. Halley. That is an answer. The purpose of the inquiry is to 
find out what you are like. 

Now, let's get to this construction company. 

Mr. Polizzi. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Your partners there, we have talked about Frank 
Milano, and there was Forrest Thompson \ 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him? 

Mr. Polizzi. Not too long. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how long % 

Mr. Polizzi. Maybe about 6 months before I went into business 
with him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 289 

Mr. Halley. How did you meet him and under what circumstances? 

Mr. Pomzzr. I met him through Mr. Mangine. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Mangine? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him? 

Mr. Polizzi. I met him here in Cleveland. 

Mr. Halley. Is Thompson a Cleveland man? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; originally a Washington man. 

Mr. Halley. Washington, D. C. ? 

Mr. Polizzi., Yes. ' . 

Mr. Halley. And he came to Cleveland for the purpose of meeting 

Mr Polizzi. No, no. He was working here in construction. 

Mr! Halley. Have you had any previous business dealings with 

him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; none whatever. . 

Mr. Halley. When you went into the construction business, how 
much money did you put into it? LI „. KnnA , , , 

Mr Polizzi. Well, we started off, I put m about $25,000 to start 
off with and then as we went along I put in a little more to take care 
of the business as it came in. . 

Mr. Halley. How much money did Thompson put into it i 

Mr. Polizzi. He didn't have any money. 

Mr. Halley. When you went into the business with lhompson, 
were you relying on his experience and qualifications? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I was. 

Mr. Halley. Did you check his background ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am sorry to say that I didn't. All I know that people 
told me he was a very fine gentleman. , 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you learn that he had two convictions i 

Mr. Polizzi. Mr. Thompson had two convictions? 

Mr. Halley. Didn't he? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. Goodness. 

Mr. Halley. You don't think he did? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. . 

Mr. Halley. You don't know whether he did or whether he didn t i 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether he did or didn't. I am assum- 
ing that he did not, 

The Chairman. Is that a picture of Mr. Thompson ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; this is not the gentleman. 

Mr. Halley. That is not Thompson ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Forrest L. Thompson? 

Mr. Polizzi. This is Forrest W. Thompson. This is not him. 

Mr. Halley. And your Mr. Thompson had no convictions? 

Mr. Polizzi. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Halley. That you know of ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That I know of. 

Mr. Halley. For the record, I want to say that, if that is not your 
friend, there is no conviction that we know of against your partner, 
and I think we should make that perfectly clear. 

Mr. Polizzi. I am pretty sure there isn't. I am not 100 percent sure, 
but I sav I am 90 percent sure. 

Mr. Halley. I am not any percent sure unless that is your man. 



290 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, no; that definitely is not my associate. 

Mr. Halley. Well, then 

Mr. Polizzi. Not Thompson. 

Mr. Halley. Then I have no right to ask the question. 

Now, did you know the Licavoli family in Detroit ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How many brothers in the Licavoli family did you 
know ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe I know all three of them. 

Mi\ Halley. How long have you known them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I know them quite a few years ago. I haven't seen 
him for years. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see any of the Licavolis ? 

Mr. Polizzi. It has been years. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know whether any of them ever worked for 
Thompson ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. In the interest of fairness, if the Forrest Thompson 
that we have here with a considerable record is not the man that is 
your partner, then I think I must strike from the record the reference 
to Forrest Thompson and ask that the press not carry it, at least, until 
we have further substantiated it, because if 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, thank you. I am sure it will help. 

The Chairman. If this man's associate isn't the man we have refer- 
ence here to, I don't want any injustice done to him. 

Mr. Polizzi. It would be an injustice, Senator. 

The Chairman. All right. We will determine later on just what 
the record shows. 

I think we might say that we had a record here of Forrest Thompson 
which was quite substantial ; but, if he is not the man you are in busi- 
ness with, we certainly don't want to do him an injustice. So, we will 
strike from the record, subject to further confirmation, any reference 
to the Forrest Thompson. 

Mr. Polizzi. Thank you. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see the Licavolis or any of them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. It has been years. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any business transactions with any 
of them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. None. 

Mr. Halley. None whatsoever ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. What other businesses do you have? I think you 
mentioned real-estate transactions with McBride; is that right? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. Well, by myself, too. I mean, I don't 
necessarily have to have 

Mr. Halley. Do you have any by yourself? Real-estate transac- 
tions? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In Florida? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And what are they? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I have got some lots down there. I started to 
develop them. I had this property that was purchased for my wife 
and Mr. King. I started to develop them there and build some houses 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 291 

on speculation before I met Thompson, but a fellow by the name of 
Sparks, and you have the whole — you have the whole deal there; I 
tinned that in. And I promoted, or. rather, I speculated with several 
of these homes. I think there was about seven altogether that I built 
when I first went down there. That is how I happened to get into the 
construction business. 

Mr. Halley. Did you put that on the property that your wife 
owned with King ? 

Mr. Polizzi. When I went to build on those lots, I bought that 
property from King and my wife, both, when I developed that prop- 
erty. 

Mr. Halley. Then you owned it yourself solely ; is that right? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. Of course, your wife becomes a part- 
ner to you in any transaction that you make. 

Mr. Halley. But King went out of the transaction ? 

Mr. Polizzi. King was out. 

Mr. Halley. And so your sole continuing business with King was 
in the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. No other businesses with King ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I can't think of any. 

Mr. Halley. Did you continue to have any other businesses with 
McBride? 

Mr. Polizzi. I bought some lots off of him; that's about all. I 
bought some lots from Mr. McBride to build an apartment house on, 
and I spent $1,250 for plans, and this was on a 608 proposition, and 
when I went to — I was just about 10 hours too late ; the appropria- 
tions had run out, and I was stuck with that property and the invest- 
ment of the plans. 

Mr. Fulton. May I interrupt to get one thing clear ? Did you say 
you bought those lots with or from ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I bought them from. 

Mr. Fulton. McBride? All right. 

Mr. Polizzi. McBride. 

Mr. Halley. You also own some lots with McBride ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I do now. 

Mr. Halley. And you did before you went to Florida also ? 

Mr. Polizzi. And I did before. 

Mr. Halley. And you went into this one real-estate development 
with McBride ? 

Mr. Polizzi. He didn't have any part of the development whatso- 
ever. We sold those particular lots ; namely, H. & I. Holding Co. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. The H. & I. Holding Co., the University Estates or 
Shriner Golf Course, so they call it. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, those lots are being held in a holding company 
and they are being sold and they were sold, to begin with, and the 
contractor defaulted on these lots and they were returned to us, and 
those lots are still in the holding company, and we are selling them 
off just as fast as we can. 

Mr. Halley. Then, in addition to John Angersola, Mangine, and 
McBride, have you any business dealings at the present time with any 
others of your former Cleveland associates? 



292 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't think so. 

Mr. H alley. Have you, since you moved your residence to Florida, 
seen any of your former associates, specially ; I presume you see John 
Angersola ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Halley. Do you from time to time see George Angersola ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Once in a while. 

Mr. Halley. Morris Kleinman? 

Mr. Polizzi. I haven't seen him in some time. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. It must have been at least a year, anyway. 

Mr. Halley. About a year ago? 

Mr. Polizzi. At least. 

Mr. Halley. Lou Kothkopf ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I see him once in a while. 

Mr. Halley. Tony Milano ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Only — well, I saw him recently. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you at his son's wedding? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you see him recently ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I think I saw him at his place of business. 

Mr. Halley. Joe Di Carlo ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I know him. 

Mr. Halley. Do you see him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever visit you at your home in Florida ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. When did you last see Joe Di Carlo ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I haven't seen Di Carlo in some time. I don't know ; it 
is years I haven't seen him. 

Mr. Halley. Would it be a fact, then, that the ones of the former 
associates you still see are Tony Milano 

Mr. Polizzi. Not very often. I would say King more so than any- 
body else. 

Mr. Halley. King more than anyone ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you see Mickey McBride from time to time? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And Milano sometime ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I see him, Milano, once in a while. I don't see — he 
doesn't come to Florida, and I don't get up here; and when I do, why, 
I may see him when I come up here and I may not see him. If I have 
a chance to, I might call him and say "Hello" to him. 

Mr. Halley. Do you see Doc Magine ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you see Chuck Polizzi, your cousin ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Once in a while. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Abe Zwillman? 

Mr. Polizzi. I know him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe I have. 

Mr. Halley. Do you ever see him in Florida? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I think so. I think that's where I met him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 293 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Zwillman? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. How long ago? 

Mr. Polizzi. I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you meet the Fischettis ? Down in Flor- 
ida? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How recently ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Oh, since I have been there. 

Mr. Halley. Since you have been there ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know their reputation ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes; more or less. 

Mr. Halley. Did you make any effort to avoid meeting people of 
that background after you went to Florida? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes; I don't associate with them. 

Mr. Halley. You don't associate with them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't. 

Mr. Halley. But you do see them from time to time ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't purposely see them. 

Mr. Halley. But you bump into them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. If you run into them, of course, that's different. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been out with them socially ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I have not. 

Mr. Halley. Do you ever go to their homes or they to yours? 

Mr. Polizzi. Never been to my home, and I haven't been to their 
home. 

Mr. Halley. Ever been fishing together or 

Mr. Polizzi (shaking head negatively). 

Mr. Halley. What would you say about Tony Accardo? Do you 
know him? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I met him. I never associated with him or had 
any business with him. 

Mr. Halley. Where have you met him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I met him on the beach. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Gizzo of Kansas City? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I don't believe so. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know a Philip Mangano of New York, 
Brooklyn ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Who? 

Mr. Halley. Philip Mangano. 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Or Vincent Mangano? 

Mr. Polizzi. I know Vincent. I have met him. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you meet Vincent Mangano ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe I have met him on the beach. I don't asso- 
ciate with him, and I don't have any business with him. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I really don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joseph Prof aci ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't. 



294 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You do not? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. When you were in the olive-oil business — you were 
in the olive-oil business? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. That was with 

Mr. Polizzl With Mr. Frank Milano. 

Mr. Halley. With Frank Milano ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any dealings with Joe Profaci in 
the olive-oil business? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know who he is 9 - 

Mr. Polizzi. I have read about him. 

Mr. Halley. He is the leader in the olive-oil business, is he not? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether he is a leader in the olive-oil 
business. I know he handled olive oil. 

Mr. Halley. Well, he has the Mama Mia Co., does he not? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. That is a very important factor in the business, isn't it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe so. I believe he handles some oil, but as to 
what line he handles, I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any dealings with him in the olive- 
oil business? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know or do you know Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Nick Delmore? 

Mr. Polizzi. I might have met Nick. I wouldn't say I know him. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him? 

Mr. Polizzi. If I met him anywhere, I met him in Florida. I 
couldn't very well have met him anywhere else. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you meet these people at the Sands Hotel ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Not at the Sands ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know William H. Johnston, the man who runs 
the dog track in Florida ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, I do not. I have read about him, but that is all. 

Mr. Halley. You have never met him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Do you attend the dog races ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I don't even attend the horse races. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie Pisano ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I have met him, too. I don't have anything to do with 
him in business or association. 

Mr. Halley. Under what circumstances do you happen to meet so 
many of these people that you have been trying to avoid ? 

Mr. Fulton. I object to that question, because it contains an un- 
warranted assumption, "trying to avoid." 

Mr. Halley. He so testified that he wanted to avoid them. 

Mr. Fulton. I thought it was the other way around. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 295 

Mr. Polizzi. I am not trying to avoid anybody. How can you 
avoid anybody, if you see them on the street? I meant I didn't go 
out of my way to go to see them. 

Mr. Halley. Well, who introduces you to these people? 

Mr. Poltzzi. Can you tell how many people you have met and how 
they were introduced to you? I can't remember that; I am sorry. 

Mr. Fulton. These gentlemen ask the questions and you answer 
them. 

Mr. Polizzi. I am sorry, I mean to do that. 

Mr. Halley. Good advice, counsel. 

Well, under what circumstances do you happen to meet people who 
are reputed to be, as these people are, gangsters ? 

Mr. Fulton. I object to this question, with the word "gangster' 
in it. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you know that they have the reputation of being 
gangsters, do you not ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You do not know that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. How would I know that ? 

Mr. Halley. Well, don't you know that Tony Accardo is reputed to 
be a gangster ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is what has been coming out in the papers in the 
last few weeks. 

Mr. Halley. Oh, Mr. Polizzi, you have known his reputation, 
haven't you, Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, you get inklings, but I don't know for sure what 
the man does do and doesn't do. I don't know his business. 

Mr. Halley. But you knew his reputation was that of a gangster ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't associate with this — whoever he is. I don't 
associate with him. I don't have anything to do with him. 

And as far as — I mean, I don't go out of my way to meet these 
people. 

Mr. Halley. But you were familiar with his reputation, weren't 
you? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well. I guess more or less anyone would probably know. 
He has been in the papers many times. 

Mr. Halley. And you knew 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, what could you do? What could I do about it \ 

Mr. Halley. Well, perhaps you could do nothing, but I would like 
to get some explanation, so I will understand how you happened, after 
you went to Florida, to meet all these gentlemen. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I guess they must be in Florida, otherwise I 
wouldn't meet them. Florida is not as big as New York or Cleveland. 

Mr. Halley. You think it is just coincidence that you met all these 
people after you went to Florida? 

Mr. Polizzi. Oh, that is for sure. 

Mr. Halley. Well, did you make a practice of associating with 

Mr. Polizzi. I have never associated with them. 

Mr. Halley. With people of that type ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I have never associated with people of that type. 

Mr. Halley. Well, where, for instance, did you meet Charlie 
Fischetti in Florida? 

Mr. Polizzi. I know I met him, but I just can't think just where I 
met him. 



296 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

How in the devil could I remember where I met them ? 

Mr. Fulton. I would like to have just one thing, that last answer, 
corrected. 

He said he never — somebody reading that might misinterpret that — 
that he never associated with people of that character. 

Do you mean never, or never since a given time ? Are you talking 
about Florida or always? 

Mr. Polizzi. Since I have been to Florida I haven't associated with 
anyone but King. 

Mr. Halley. Are you related to the Angersolas ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Are you related to the Licavolis ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Was any of the Licavolis best man at your wedding? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Which one? 

Mr. Polizzi. Pete. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And was he at that time a pretty good friend of 
yours ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, he was. 

Mr. Halley. That was some years ago, of course? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right, that is many years ago. 

Mr. Halley. And when did you last see Pete Licavoli? 

Mr. Polizzi. It has been years. At least a couple years. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how many? 

Mr. Polizzi. At least 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. At least 2 years? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where and when did you last see him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe the last time I saw Pete was up in Tucson. 

1 was going to California with my wife, and we stopped on our way 
over. 

Mr. Halley. You stopped at his ranch ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you stay at Pete Licavoli's ranch in 
Tucson? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, we left there immediately. 

Mr. Halley. How long were you there ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think we were there overnight. Now, I may 
have that a little bit wrong, too. It might have been on my way back 
that we stopped. However, we stopped there, I believe, overnight. 

Mr. Halley. At Pete Licavoli's ranch? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, I believe so. 

Mr. Halley. And that was about 2 years ago ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go to California by automobile ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long were you in California? 

Mr. Polizzi. I went there to visit my sister, and I staved there about 

2 weeks. 

Mr. Halley. Was it a pleasure trip? 

Mr. Polizzi. A pleasure trip. 

Mr. Halley. While you were there, did you visit Las Vegas? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes I did. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 297 

Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in Las Vegas? 
Mr. Polizzi. Just overnight. 
Mr. Halley. And where did you stay i 

Mr Polizzi. I stayed at one of the motels, and I forget even the 
name'of the motel. I paid, I think, something like $(5 for a room 
Mr. Halley. You didn't, by any chance, go out on a week end . 
Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether it was a week end or not, 1 clou t 

B Mr. Halley. Was it one of these motels along the so-called "Strip" ? 
Mr Polizzi. It was more or less out of the city. 

Mr. Halley. Out where all these gambling houses are, in that direc- 
ti on, on the road toward Los Angeles? 

Mr. Polizzi. On the road toward Los Angeles. 

Mr. Halley. Well, they are all pretty fancy motels, aren't they t 

Mr. Polizzi. Not for $6 a night. . 

Mr. Halley. Well, you get a very nice hotel room in Las Vegas tor 

$6 a night. 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. At any of these gambling joints. 

Mr. Polizzi. I wasn't at a gambling joint. 

Mr. Halley. At any event, you were there overnight i 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And did you see anybody there whom you had known 

in Cleveland? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Nobody at all ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Nobody. 

Mr. Halley. You were just sightseeing ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. . 

Mr. Halley. Now, in California where did you stay ? In what city « 

Mr. Polizzi. I stayed with my sister. 

Mr. Halley. In what city ? 

Mr. Polizzi. It is a suburb of Los Angeles. 

Mr. Halley. Well, that will be a good enough answer. In one ot 
the suburbs of Los Angeles. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. I can't quite remember. 

Mr. Halley. Did you take a trip to San Francisco at all \ 

Mr. Polizzi. A long time ago. . 

Mr. Halley. Did you take any on this last automobile trip i 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. You just stayed m Los Angeles i 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. While you were there, did you meet J ack JJragna « 

Mr. Polizzi. I can't say whether I did or didn't. Most of the time 
I was at my sister's. I didn't go any place. 

Mr. Halley. Well, Jack Dragna would be a person you would cer- 
tainly remember, one way or the other. 

Mr. Polizzi. But I don't even know him that well. 

Mr. Halley. Well, do you know him at all \ 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether I know him or don't know him. 
I say I might have met him, but I wouldn't go out of my way— I don't 
know whether he would recognize me, or whether he would know me, 
or I don't know what. I mean, if you are not close to people, you don't 
recall them. 



298 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Tia Juana, Mexico? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. I don't see how Jack Dragna could have possibly met 
you and you not remember it one way or the other. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I am telling you. I don't know whether I have 
or not. 

Mr. Halley. Do you have the same reply with response to Rosselli ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. I don't know whether I met him. 

Mr. Halley. You might remember he was one of the group that was 
convicted in the movie extortion case. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I remember reading about him. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know, whether you met him or not ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I really don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you meet Momo Adamo ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I don't recall that name. No ; I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Did you meet Mickey Cohen ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether I did or not. 

Mr. Halley. Well, how can you not know whether you met a man 
who is that infamous ? How could it elude you ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, they are just names. I don't know. You read 
about these people and — I don't know whether I have met them or not. 
I might have met them. There is a lot of people. Just the other day 
somebody came up to me right here in this building, and he said, "Do 
you remember me?" 

And I said, "Well, you look very familiar." And it happened to be 
somebody that works right here. I didn't even know him. 

Mr. Fulton. Mr. Steele ? 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Mickey Cohen when he left Cleveland? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; I didn't. Did I know Mickey Cohen when he was 
here ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. And you actually want me to believe that you don't 
remember whether or not you met Cohen, Rosselli, or Dragna, just 2 
years ago ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know whether I did or didn't. I say I don't 
know; I don't remember. However, I have never had anything to do 
with him, and I have never associated with him. That is my answer. 
I don't know how else I would put it. 

Mr. Halley. Whether you met them or not — — 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. I am trying to put it the best way I 
know how. 

Mr. Halley. Are you trying to tell us you didn't meet them? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am trying to say that I don't know whether I did or 
lidn't. 

Mr. Halley. Well, it will just have to stand that way. 

Now, I would like to go back into what you did before 1945, but 
there is no point in cluttering up the record. 

Mr. Fulton. And I want to say on that 

Mr. Halley. Do you advise him to refuse to testify about all of his 
activities before 1945 ? 

Mr. Fulton. Yes, including 1944. And I will take much of the 
responsibility for it, and I want to say moreover and want to say as 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 299 

emphatically as I can. there will be no objection raised to any tech- 
nical basis upon which any later contempt charges for refusal to 
answer will be predicated, I assure you. 

In other words, if the intent is to do that, I won't be coining back 
saying it wasn't properly done in the record. 

Mr. Halley. Well, perhaps we can clarify the matter. I presume 
that the reason is that things that happened before 1944: concerned 
illegal activities; is that correct? 

Mr. Fulton. To whom do you address that? 

Mr. Halley. The witness. 

Mr. Fulton. You were looking at me. 

Mr. Halley. You are prettier. That is why. [Laughter.] 

The Chairman. Well, is that the situation, that you won't testify 
about anything prior to 1945, and the reason is because some illegal 
activities were involved that you refuse to tell about? Is that correct 
or not ? 

Mr. Poltzzi. I think that is correct. 

The Chairman. Sir? 

Mr. Polizzi. I think that is correct. 

Mr. Fulton. And counsel's reason is that those activities, whatever 
they were, were purely local, and can't bear on crime in interstate 
commerce. Now, I know this doesn't fall within that privilege stat- 
ute — and will affect his standing and position henceforth, and I am 
familiar with section 193, 1 guess it is, or 192, title II. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, you understand one of the main purposes 
of this inquiry is to find out the extent to which people with known 
organized interstate criminal records have gone underground into 
so-called legitimate businesses, but continue to associate with each 
other, and affect present-day illegal as well as present-day legal busi- 
ness activities. 

Mr. Fulton. I do so understand that. 

Mr. Halley. And with that in mind, and I do address this question 
to you, Mr. Fulton — don't you think that it is absolutely pertinent 
that your witness should answer these questions ? 

Mr. Fulton. I will answer that very frankly. Sitting here where 
I am, representing him, no. 

Second, my reason as a lawyer is that if the activities were wrong, 
if they were local and remote in time, they can have no bearing on the 
facts that may aid our representatives in Congress to enact legisla- 
tion tending to prohibit crime in interstate commerce. 

The first part of my answer I meant, too, I probably would think 
differently if I were over there. 

The Chairman. All right. We have got your answer. Let's get 
on. 

Mr. Halley. Now, Mr. Polizzi, did you ever engage in any criminal 
transactions prior to 1944 ? 

Mr. Fulton. Objection. 

Mr. Polizzi. Criminal 

Mr. Halley. Criminal. 

Mr. Fulton. That is prior to 1944? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Fulton. Objection. That is back. Consistency would require 
you to refuse to answer that. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 20 



300 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. All right. The question is. Did you engage in 
criminal activities prior to 1944? 

Mr. Fulton. Don't answer it. 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

The Chairman. Now, wait a minute. What did you say? 

Mr. Polizzi. I didn't quite get the question. 

The Chairman. Did you engage in any criminal activities prior 
to 1944? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. The chairman directs you, then, sir. Do you 
refuse? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Halley. During the prohibition era, were you engaged in the 
illicit liquor business? 

Mr. Fulton. Objection. 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer. 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you not convicted of a violation of the Na- 
tional Prohibition Act, in. the year 1926? 

Mr. Fulton. Objection. Refuse to answer. 

Mr. Polizzi. Didn't I answer that once before ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Fulton. Well, you did, but answer it again — or I mean, refuse 
again. 

The Chairman. All right. You refuse to answer as to whether you 
were convicted or not? 

Mr. Fulton. Oh, the question is convicted? That's all right. 

Mr. Polizzi. I answered the question before, the same question. 

The Chairman. Well, what was your answer? Answer it again. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I was convicted. 

Mr. Halley. Now, after your conviction in 1926, did you continue 
or did you not continue in the liquor business ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. The Chair directs you to answer. 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the liquor business with Frank 
Milano? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in any business with Pete Licavoli? 

Mr. Fulton. Now, the word "ever" is in that question. 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Well now, let the record show that the Chair has 
directed you to answer these last two questions. That is understood. 

Mr. Fulton. That is understood. 

Mr. Polizzi. That is just for the record. 

Mr. Halley. Were you between the years 1928 and 1944, in busi- 
ness with Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer that, too. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever, prior to 1944, in business with John 
Angersola, whom you have referred to as John King? 

Mr. Polizzi. 1 believe I answered that before. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 301 

Mr. Halley. And what is the answer ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, in view of the — of my objections here with refer- 
ence to the questioning prior to 1944, 1 believe I made a statement- 



Mr. Fulton. The question is a title different, now. Read the ques- 
tion, please. 

The Chairman. Mr. Reporter, will you read the question ? 

(Question read.) 

The Chairman. Now, you were or were not ? 

Mr. Polizzi. In business with John Angersola, yes. 

Mr. Halley. And in what business were you with John Angersola ? 

Mr. Fulton. Objection to that. 

Mr. Polizzi. I object to that. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Fulton. There goes my fee. 

The Chairman. You object and you refuse to answer. 

All right. The Chair directs you to answer. 

And you refuse ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Now, I think you testified — I am sure you did, some 
time back, that your reason for the refusals to go into what happened 
prior to 1944 is that you are ashamed of what happened prior to 1944? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am. 

Mr. Halley. I think, Mr. Chairman, we have got sufficient record 
for any action to committee wants to take, and at this point I will 
•discontinue questioning. 

The Chairman. Any other questions I 

Mr. Nellis. One more question, Mr. Chairman. Did you have a 
liouse on Leighton Road here in the city \ 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. P7o you still have that home I 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you sell it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. You have the record there. I think I gave them to you. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, approximately when? A year, 2 years? 

Mr. Polizzi. Just a few years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. A few years ago. 

Did you have a basement in that house? Was it a house with a 
basement \ 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What did you have down in the basement, Mr. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Polizzi. What did I have in the basement ? 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have a recreation room down there, or some 
kind of a nice set-up ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have a gun collection there ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I still have. 

Mr. Nellis. Tell us about that. What does it consist of? 

Mr. Polizzi. It consists of shotguns, rifles. 

Mr. Nellis. How many shotguns? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I have got a 12-gage shotgun, and I have got — 
that is one automatic and one pump. And I have got a .300 Magnum, 
I have got a .300 Savage, and I have got, I believe, a .22, and 

Mr. Nellis. Any sawed-off machine guns down there? 

Mr. Polizzi. Oh, no. And a .30-06 Remington. 



302 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Any other kinds of rifles ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe that is the extent of it. 

Mr. Nellis. Any pistols % 

Mr. Polizzi. I have a pistol for my home, of my own; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, that is not part of your collection ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; that is for my home. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you had this collection? 

Mr. Polizzi. A good many years. 

Mr. Nellis. Twenty, thirty years ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, you accumulate them. You don't — I never 
bought them all together. I bought them at various times. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you get them ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I bought my first shotgun, I bought it at a hard- 
ware store for the purpose of hunting. 

Mr. Nellis. When was that % 

Mr. Polizzi. That is many years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. When you were in Cleveland ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And after that, you went out and bought more for 
this purpose? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I wanted to go deer hunting, so I had to buy a 
rifle. So I bought a .300 Savage. That is what you would use for 
deer. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, at this 
time. 

Did you own the yacht Wood Duck at one time ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I still own it. 

Mr. Nellis. You still have it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you acquire it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I acquired it in, I believe, the early part of 1946. You 
have the documented record right there. 

Mr. Fulton. I shall object to any more questions about that, but 
only because that first answer showing the date of his purchase makes 
it clear that that can't be pertinent to anything here. 

The Chairman. All right. The objection is overruled. I don't 
know the purpose of asking about the Wood Duck, but it is an alle- 
gation that some of these fellows were trying to avoid some process 
by getting out on the Wood Duck. 

Mr. Nellis. Who did you buy it from ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I bought it from Mrs. Amy King. 

Mr. Nellis. She is John King's wife ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

Mr. Nellis. John Angersola's wife ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. And do you know where she got it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know where she got it. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you hear Mr. McBride's testimony the other day? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, but 

Mr. Nellis. He sold it to Fred King, who sold it to Amy King, who 
sold it to you. 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; wait a minute. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, tell us the facts, Mr. Polizzi. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 303 

Mr. Polizzi. All I know is that I purchased the yacht Wood Duck 
from Mrs. Amy King. 

Mr. Nellis. How much did you pay for it? 

Mr. Polizzi. $5,000. That boat was built in 1936, and if you know 
boats, it is quite old. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you on it in about 1939 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I might have been. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you on it with George and John Angersola at 
about that time? 

Mr. Polizzi. George Angersola, you couldn't get him out on a 
boat if you stood on your ear. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you take a trip from Cleveland through the lake 
and then down the Inland Waterway about that time? 

Mr. Polizzi. Never did. 

Mr. Nellis. With George and John Angersola ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know anything about that? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know anything about that. 

Mr. Nellis. No further questions. 

Mr. Halley. Just one thing. Were you ever connected with the 
Richmond Country Club? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any transactions involving the 
Richmond Country Club ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. It was a gambling place, was it not ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see gambling there? 

Mr. Polizzi. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether Tony Milano owned it? 

Mr. Polizzi. That I couldn't tell you. I don't know whether it was 
a club or whether it was a privately owned — I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have a membership in it, Mr. Polizzi ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Tony Milano there ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I think I have. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever see John Angersola there? 

Mr. Polizzi. I couldn't say whether I did or not. I am not sure. 

Mr. Halley. Under what circumstances did you go there ? 

Mr. Polizzi. For dinner. 

Mr. Halley. With whom. 

Mr. Polizzi. My family. 

Mr. Halley. Were you a member of the club ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know, now. I don't think so. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go as the guest of somebody ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I might have been a guest of somebody. I can't 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever there as a guest of Tony Milano ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Polizzi, the truth of the matter is that the 
Sands Hotel is sort of a hang-out for the fellows who come down from 
Cleveland and Philadelphia to Miami Beach; isn't it? 



304 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Fulton. I respectfully object to that question. 

The Chairman. Well, all right. I asked the question anyway. We 
have had some testimony on that. That is. most of the fellows from 
Philadelphia and Cleveland, that at least have names that are well 
known, usually stay at the Sands Hotel : isn't that true ? Nick Rosen, 
Weisburg, from Philadelphia? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, Senator, that's a public place and, of course 

The Chairman. I mean, it just so happens that way. Of course, 
they have a right to stay there when they can get in. 

Mr. Polizzi. The rest of the hotels — was there a check to see how 
many more were registered in other hotels ? 

The Chairman. And the Wofford Hotel is sort of a hang-out for 
the New York group, isn't it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. I don't know that at all. I don't have 
anything to do with the Wofford Hotel. I wouldn't know that. 

The Chairman. I know, but it is generally known as to which of 
these two hotels the different groups stayed at. 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator, as far as the hotel is concerned. I don't know 
who registered in the hotel and who does not register in the hotel. 

The Chairman. You are there a good deal, aren't you, at the hotel ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't go over the guest list. 

The Chairman. I know, but you come around to see who is there 
and you know the people. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I wouldn't say that. 

The Chairman. Do the Fischettis stay at the Sands Hotel? 

Mr. Polizzi. Now, I have never seen them there, no. 

The Chairman. Where was it you met Mr. Charles Fischetti ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know. I met him in Miami somewhere. 

The Chairman. You just met him. vou don't remember where? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

The Chairman. I wanted to be sure that I had the things here that 
you would not testify about. Were you asked whether you were in 
business with Morris A. Haas and you refused to testify- ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I was asked that question. 

The Chairman. Did you refuse to testify about that ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. You won't tell the kind of business that vou were- 
in? 

Mr. Fulton. I think he answered he was in business. 

Am I right about that? 

The Chairman. Yes; but you refused to say what kind of business; 
you were in. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I believe so. I don't know. 

The Chairman. You understand you are being directed to tell what 
kind of business you were in with Morris A. Haas ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. Before 1944 you have been asked whether you 
were in business with John Angersola or King. You refused to say. 
Now, Vincent Mangine, is he vour partner or one of your partners in 
Coral Gables? 

Mr. Polizzi. He is associated. 

The Chairman. He is associated? 

Mr. Polizzi. He has stock in the Thompson-Polizzi Construction Co. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 305 

The Chairman. You knew him up here in Cleveland? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I did. I still know him. 

The Chairman. Were you in business with him in Cleveland? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. 

The Chairman. Vincent M-a-n-g-i-n-e ? 

Mr. Polizzi. M-a-n-g-i-n-e. 

The Chairman. How does he spell his name ? Is that the way he 
spells it? 

Mr. Polizzi. Mangine, M-a-n-g-i-n-e. 

The Chairman. Think hard. Were you in business with him in 
Cleveland ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't believe I was, Senator. 

The Chairman. You ought to be be able to remember whether you 
were or not. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, goodness, I don't know. I don't — I don't think 
I was. 

The Chairman. What did he do up here? 

Mr. Polizzi. What did Mangine do % 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. All I know, he had a saloon. 

The Chairman. You weren't in any business with him up here? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. 

The Chairman. You said one time you were in business with 
Charles Polizzi up here. 

Mr. Polizzi. I said I was in business with him. 

The Chairman. But you wouldn't tell what sort of business. 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

The Chairman. And with Nathan and Francis Weisenberg. Were 
you in business with them but you won't tell what kind of business? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

The Chairman. Will you tell whether you were in the City Vend- 
ing Co. or not. 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't believe I was. 

The Chairman. Do you remember for sure? 

Mr. Polizzi. I couldn't say. 

The Chairman. How about the Skill Amusement Co. ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't even recall the name. 

The Chairman. You refuse to testify about the Buckeye Cater- 
ing Co. ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

The Chairman. You did buy a very substantial stock interest in 
Tip Top Brewing Co., didn't you ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. When did you do that? 

Mr. Polizzi. In 1940. 

The Chairman. Was that out of money that you had made in some 
transactions that were not legal. 

Mr. Fulton. Objection to that. 

Mr. Polizzi. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Chairman. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. Polizzi. I still refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. How about the Lubeck Distilling Co. 

Mr. Fulton. Distributing Co. 



306 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Distributing Co.? 

Mr. Polizzi. Distributing Co. 

The Chairman. Did you buy an interest in that, too. 

Mr. Polizzi. 1 started that company. 

The Chairman. You started the company ? 

Mr. Polizzi. (Nodding head affirmatively.) 

The Chairman. And you still have it. 

Mr. Pollizzi. There was a merger between — that — I sold that. 

The Chairman. Then you had the Pabst Sales Co., too, that you 
started, didn't you? 

You had an interest in it. 

Mr. Polizzi. No, that — I will explain that to you if you would like 
to hear it. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Polizzi. The Lubeck Distributing Co. ? 

The Chairman. No, the Pabst Sales Co. 

Mr. Polizzi. There was no Pabst Sales Co. 

The Chairman. Then you got a salary from the Pabst Sales Co. 

Mr. Polizzi. That was a promotion. 

The Chairman. What did you promote ? 

What was it about ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I promoted the product. I wish it would be stricken 
from the — I don't like to mention the name. 

The Chairman. Why ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, after all they spend thousands of dollars to 
advertise this product and I don't think this will do it any good. 

The Chairman. But you had some sort of promotion project in 
connection with it. 

But the Tip-Top Brewing Co. was one of your principal sources 
of income ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. Fifteen or eighteen thousand dollars a year ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

The Chairman. This Mr. Thompson, we have gotten apparently an 
incorrect identification, and I am sorry about that. 

How old is Mr. Thompson ? 

Mr. Polizzi. He is about 60. 

The Chairman. Where did he come from, do you know? Wash- 
ington, D. C. ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Washington, D. C. 

The Chairman. Where did he come from originally? Do you 
know whether he lived in Mansfield, Ohio, or not ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think so. I know that he worked over — I be- 
lieve he was telling me that they had a job over near Marion, Ohio, 
somewhere. 

The Chairman. Does he have any physical deformity? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, none whatsoever. 

The Chairman. I mean, no scars on his face, or no trouble with 
his hands? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; no trouble. 

The Chairman. And he came from Washington out here, you say? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe so. He has quite a background as fur as 
construction is concerned. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 307 

The Chairman. And when you met him he was on some job out 
here ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. He has built most of these big apartment houses 
here in Shaker Heights. 

The Chairman. If he was ever in any trouble, you didn't know 
anything about it, you say? 

Mr. Polizzi. That is right. 

The Chairman. I want the record to show that we had a Forrest 
Thompson who had a record, so unless we have something on your Mr. 
Forrest Thompson, why, I am sorry we have gotten him confused. 

Mr. Polizzi. That is quite all right, 

The Chairman. How about Sam Indelicate? Were you in busi- 
ness with him? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

The Chairman. I think you showed it on some of the records you 
left with us. 

Mr. Polizzi. No; I'm sorry. 

The Chairman. Is he the olive-oil man ? Who were you in the olive- 
oil business with? 

Mr. Polizzi. That was Frank Milano. 

The Chairman. Oh, yes. 

Mr. H alley. There is just one thing I wonder if you could help the 
committee on, Mr. Polizzi. Did you ever hear of an organization 
known as the Mafia ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I have read about it. There is lots of talk about it in 
the papers with reference to this committee. 

I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Halley. Except from what you read in the papers with refer- 
ence to this committee, do you know anything about it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I do not know anything about it. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Unione Siciliano? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I believe I did. 

Mr. Halley. What can you tell the committee about that? 

Mr. Polizzi. I know they were here — they were in Cleveland some 
years ago promoting membership in that particular club. It was kind 
of an insurance business. They had a charter and everything else. 
I don't know much about it, 

Mr. Halley. Did you belong to it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. What were the purposes of the club ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I really don't know. I mean, as far as I know, they 
had a charter and they were soliciting members. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever solicited ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I was, but I didn't join. I didn't accept. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know any members? 

Mr. Polizzi. There was a number of people here that were out 
soliciting, quite prominent people, like lawyers and dentists, and a 
few of those people. 

Mr. Halley. Who did you know who were members ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't remember. 

Mr. Fulton. Is this some secret societ}^ ? 

The Chairman. That is what we are trying to find out about, 
Mr. Fulton. 



308 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Fulton. One wouldn't know who was a member unless he was 
in himself. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of a Black Hand Society? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I heard of Black Hand since I was a baby. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of extortion threats ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Halley. And certain crimes being committed upon people who 
refused to pay extortion ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right, I have. I think it is terrible. 

Mr. Halley. You did hear about that when you were a youngster ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Black Hand as being a secret 
society ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Only like you would hear it. 

Mr. Halley. What is that? 

Mr. Polizzi. I say, like you would hear it. 

Mr. Halley. How did you hear it ? 

Mr. Polizzi. About the Black Hand ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I heard it ever since I was a kid. I used to get — 
as a boy I used to get hearsay, people would be talking about a terrible 
thing happened to so-and-so, he got a Black Hand letter, and some- 
body burned his house, or they had a picture. I mean it scared the 
kids. I remember, I was scared to death. 

Mr. Halley. Did it scare businessmen ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I suppose it would. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any experience personally with any 
Black Hand threats of any kind ? 

Mr. Polizzi. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Black Hand Societj* referred 
to as the Mafia ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Only in the papers. 

Mr. Halley. Yon didn't hear of that as a young boy ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. You never heard that expression, "Mafia" ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, I didn't. I have read a lot about this business since 
I have been accused. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever known anybody that you believed or 
had reason to believe was a member of any Black Hand Society? 

Mr. Polizzi. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. To your knowledge, you have not known anybody ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right, I wouldn't know. How would I know ? 

Mr. Halley. You personally have never been a member of such a 
society ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Halley. Or the Mafia ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Halley. In fact, just to make it clear, it is your testimony that 
you just don't know that there is such a thing as the Mafia; is that 
right? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And you did not ever belong to any societ}' known as 
the Unione Siciliano? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 309 

Mr. Polizzi. Absolutely not. I have never belonged to any secret 
society, if that is what you would say. 

Mr. Halley. Did you say that you had ever met a man by the name 
of Vito Genovese ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know if I do or not. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know if you do or not ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't think I have met him. 

Mr. Halley. Have you heard of him '. 

Mr. Polizzi. I might have. I don't recall. I don't recall the name. 
I don't recall. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. Fulton. May I ask a question, one question or two? 

The Chairman. Sure. 

Mr. Fulton. I have heard questions put about Angersola, King, 
members of the Angersola family, King family, being one and the 
same. 

Over what period of time do you understand the Angersolas used 
the name King? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Fulton. How long have they used the name King? 

Mr. Polizzi. All their lives. 

Mr. Fulton. Since you were a boy \ 

Mr. Polizzi. Since I was a boy. As a matter of fact, I was a life- 
guard with Fred in Luna Park years back, 

Mr. Fulton. Mr. Chairman, I sat here in the courtroom hereto- 
fore — I don't intend to make any speeches now — and heard other wit- 
nesses afforded the opportunity to say something in response to things 
in the paper. Now, there was an article in the Cleveland Press since 
these hearings started, or about the time they started, to the effect 
that the respondent Al Polizzi was a member of the so-called May- 
field Gang. 

I have here, and it can be found in the Press files, an editorial from 
the Press of October 20. 1938, headed, A Legend Buried. 

Clayton Fritchey of the Press staff, in a series of stories is tracing the trend 
of mobdom in Cleveland — particularly as it relates to 'policy" and "clearing- 
house," the great numbers lotteries. 

One myth these stories should clear up is that of the existence of a supermob 
variously called the Mayfield Gang or the Hill Crowd, and so forth. It is shown 
that such an identification of various gangs is a misnomer. 

There have been some spectacular slayiugs on Mayfield Road and some well- 
known racketeers have come from this district, just as many other sections 
of the city also have had killings and criminals. 

Mayfield Road and adjacent streets are about the same as other neighborhoods. 
The overwhelming majority of residents are respectable, law-abiding citizens. 
Many have achieved esteemed places in the general community. 

It is about time to lay at rest the legend of the so-called Mayfield Road gang. 
If police, in the future, find it necessary to label a certain crowd, why not say 
■"Policy Mob," if that is what is meant. 

In any case, it would be a good idea to stop resurrecting Mayfield every time 
some new gang comes along. 

The Chairman. Of course, Mr. Fulton, it is impossible for us to 
know whether Mr. Polizzi has been in any gang from his testimony 
because he won't testify of anything prior to 1945. 

Mr. Fulton. I claim that is not pertinent to this record. 



310 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Mr. Polizzi, I wanted to ask you one or two other 
questions. 

This John Angersola who was with you in the Sands Hotel, he is 
also in the Wofford Hotel, isn't he? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe he is, but I am not in that deal. 

The Chairman. But he is your partner, and he is in both of these 
hotels ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

The Chairman. And Mr. Giesey, who was here this morning, he is 
the one who fixes up your income-tax returns and does your auditing 
for you ? 

Mr. Polizzi. No ; he does not. 

The Chairman. Why, he did up to a certain time ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. Until you went to Florida ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

The Chairman. You came over here I believe when you were about 
6 years old, is that correct ? 

Mr. Polizzi. About 9. 

The Chairman. Nine. From Sicily or Italy or where ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Sicily. 

The Chairman. Sicily. You were naturalized ? 

Mr. Polizzi. In 1928. 

The Chairman. In 1928? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. Didn't you get a charge brought against you for 
perjury for failing to state on your naturalization papers that you 
had been convicted in 1926 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes; I did. 

The Chairman. And the matter was dismissed ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. That's all. You remain under subpena. I must 
say, Mr. Polizzi, that I will have to recommend to the whole committee 
that action be taken against you. I regret that that is the situation 
but, of course, if people arbitrarily are going to put a time limit on 
what they are going to testify about, it is very difficult to follow any 
other course. 

Mr. Polizzi. It is a little too embarrasing. 

The Chairman. I know. 

Mr. Polizzi. And I have had nothing but trouble with that kind 
of a shadow. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Fulton. Let me repeat for the last time that in a secret session 
here or anywhere else, everyone of those questions will be fully and 
completely answered. 

The Chairman. Well, the difficulty about that is that even in a 
secret session or an executive session we have to report to the United 
States Senate, Mr. Fulton. 

Mr. Fulton. I realize that but it doesn't have to be reported in 
question and answer form. 

The Chairman. On the authority of the chairman, the police record 
of Mr. Polizzi will be put into the record and made a part, not as an 
exhibit to his testimony but as a part of our record. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 311 

(The record of Alfred Polizzi is made a part of the committee's 
record, identified as exhibit No. 69, and appears in the appendix 
on p. 465.) 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator, may I say this? 

Mr. Fulton. Just a moment. I move that evidence and those 
documents be excluded from the record. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Fulton. And that all evidence given by way of testimony or 
documents or others heretofore or hereafter relating to Mr. Polizzi 
be stricken from the record. 

The Chairman. Yes, we understand. All right. 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator, however, 1 would like to say this, that, of 
course, all the people that were mentioned here whether I knew them 
or I didn't know them were, of course, people the choice of the com- 
mittee. I also want to state that I do know a good many people that 
perhaps that I do business with and associate with such as doctors, 
lawyers, bankers, presidents of banks, vice presidents, and many, many 
fine citizens. 

The Chairman. Well, I am sure that is true, Mr. Polizzi. Natural- 
ly, in the construction business and in a hotel business you would 
meet a good many people of that kind, but it does appear that you 
left Cleveland and you have carried on with pretty much the same 
j3eople that you 

Mr. Polizzi. I didn't think I was, Senator. 

The Chairman. Down in Miami and, in addition to them that you 
have managed to meet the Fischettis and a good many others. 

Mr. Polizzi. Senator, can you help it if you meet someone? 

The Chairman. Yes. All right. Well, that is all right. 

Mr. Halley. While you are still here, do you know James Licavoli? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know whether or not he was paroled from 
prison in 1946? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe I heard something about it. I don't know 
for sure. 

Mr. Halley. Did you have anything to do with that parole ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Halley. Did your business partner have anything to do with 
that parole ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That I don't know anything about. I was told — I 
heard about that later on. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know 
anything with reference — Forrest Allen was asking me about that and 
I didn't even know that there was a letter written, that there would 
be a job for him and that's what was told. I didn't know a thing 
about it. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know whether I met 

Mr. Halley. Was a letter written for him by your partner? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe so but I don't even know whether I knew 
Forrest Thompson at the time. 

Mr. Halley. It is a strange coincidence ; let's explore it a little fur- 
ther. When did you first find out that Forrest Thompson with whom 
you are in partnership wrote a letter for James Licavoli ? 

Mr. Polizzi. When Forrest Allen told me. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know it now ? Have you checked with your 
partner to find out ? 



312 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Polizzi. I haven't checked only what Forrest Allen told me. I 
haven't checked anything with reference to it. 

Mr. Halley. Is it possible that we have got the wrong Forrest Allen 
again ? Yon see 

Mr. Polizzi. Forrest Allen? 

Mr. Halley. Forrest Thompson. 

Mr. Polizzi. He is a newspaper reporter for the Press. 

Mr. Halley. I know Forrest Allen. 

Mr. Polizzi. He is not wrong. 

Mr. Halley. We are talking about Forrest Thompson. 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, Forrest Thompson, there is nothing wrong with 
him. 

Mr. Halley. Is it possible there is a mistake in identity again? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Halley. You do think it is your partner that wrote a letter 
for James Licavoli ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That might be very possible. 

Mr. Halley. Had he previously known James Licavoli ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe he had. I couldn't swear to that because 
I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Well, I am interested in that because we haven't gone 
through all of your present — — 

Mr. Polizzi. How would I know that, Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. May I finish even though what I am going to say is 
a little bit of a speech ; it is to explain to you why I am interested in 
it so we can pursue it. You see, Ave were going through your present 
businesses to find out which of your present businesses was free from 
all of the past taint and the one that seemed most free was this con- 
struction business, this Thompson. Now does it appear that he is a 
pal of the Licavolis? 

Mr. Polizzi. No, no; he is not. 

Mr. Halley. How would he come to sponsor the parole of James 
Licavoli ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't believe he sponsored. I don't think there was 
any such thing as him sponsoring, from what I understand. Maybe — 
maybe I am all wrong. 

Mr. Halley. What do you understand to be the facts? 

Mr. Polizzi. What I understand to be the fact is that a letter was 
written with reference to giving this man a job if he came out of prison. 
Now, I don't know what the details w 7 ere but there was no recom- 
mendation on his part from what I understand 

Mr. Halley. Well, now, when did you go into business with 
Thompson ? 

Mr. Polizzi. I believe it was in 1947. 

Mr. Halley. In 1947 ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. And the parole was in 1946? 

Mr. Polizzi. I don't know anything about that. I don't even know 
when it was. 

Mr. Halley. Now, Thompson had no money ; you provided 

Mr. Polizzi. The financing? 

Mr. Halley. The financing. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; I did. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 313 

Mr. Halley. Was Thompson then at that time undertaking to give 
Licavoli a job in a business you were to create; is that the situation? 

Mr. Polizzi. I am sorry; will you repeat that again? 

Mr. Halley. Thompson was undertaking to provide employment 
for James Licavoli ; is that right ? 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes ; for James Licavoli ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. He had no assets to create a business enterprise ; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Polizzi. He didn't need — he didn't need Licavoli for an enter- 
prise. 

Mr. Halley. No ; but he needed money to have an enterprise, didn't 
he? 

Mr. Polizzi. He was working for someone. 

Mr. Halley. Working for someone else, he couldn't provide a job. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes, he could. 

.Mr. Halley. How? 

Mr. Polizzi. Because he was in charge of construction. 

Mr. Halley. He was offering to be the employer, was be not? 

Mr. Polizzi. Thompson? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Polizzi. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Was there or was there not any relationship between 
Thompson's offer to provide employment for James Licavoli and your 
financing Thompson in the construction business? 

Mr. Polizzi. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Halley. That is just a coincidence? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. At the time you went into business with Thompson 
did you know that he had had some connection with the Licavolis? 

Mr. Polizzi. Absolutely not. 

Mr. Halley. When did you first learn it? 

Mr. Polizzi. When Forrest Allen asked me about it. 

Mr. Halley. What have you learned about his previous relationship 
with the Licavolis? 

Mr. Polizzi. I haven't learned anything about the previous rela- 
tions between Forrest Allen — as a matter of fact, I don't think 

Mr. Halley. Now, you did it. 

Mr. Polizzi. Forrest Thompson. Well, I am sorry. 

Mr. Halley. Forrest Thompson. 

Mr. Polizzi. Forrest Thompson. I don't know whether he knows 
Licavoli or not. He is an employer. 

Mr. Halley. How would he 

Mr. Polizzi. Wait a minute. He is an employer and he was asked, 
perhaps, someone might have asked him if he would give this fellow 
a job if and when. 

Mr. Halley. Who would have asked him that? 

Mr. Polizzi. Well, I don't know. I didn't ask, that's for sure. 

Mr. Halley. You say that this other partner of yours — what's his 
name, in the construction company — what is the name of your third — 
of your second partner? 

Mr. Polizzi. Mangine. 



314 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Mangine. You say lie introduced you to Thompson ? 

Mr. Polizzi. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And that Thompson had just come from Washington? 

Mr. Polizzi. No; Thompson had been working here. He was 

Mr. Halley. In Cleveland? 

Mr. Polizzi. He was working here at the time I met him. 

Mr. Fulton. That word has been used several times talking about 
that man, "here." Does that mean here in Cleveland or where ? 

Mr. Polizzi. In Cleveland. He was employed here in Cleveland 
on a construction job here, business construction. 

Mr. Halley. There is no explanation of how this man Thompson 
would suddenly write a letter to James Licavoli? 

Mr. Polizzi. Mr. Halley, I don't know anything about that. The 
only thing I can tell you is that I don't know anything about it, how 

it came about, what it didn't 1 only know he was asked to write a 

letter; that is the only thing I found out. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know who asked him to write the letter? 

Mr. Polizzi. That I don't even know ; that I don't know. 

The Chairman. All right. I think we have had enough of this. 

Mr. Fulton. You have said to be available. Do you mean while 
the session is in Cleveland. 

The Chairman. No. 

Mr. Fulton. May Mr. Polizzi leave Cleveland to go back to 
Florida ? 

The Chairman. He may leave if he wishes to but what I mean is 
if we 

Mr. Fulton. I see. 

The Chairman. If we want you back for some purpose, the 
subpena will remain in effect. As to that we will notify you or Mr. 
Polizzi to appear at some future time but I don't contemplate that 
we will want Mr. Polizzi any more during this hearing. 

Mr. Fulton. Sincerely I am grateful for the courtesy shown by all 
of your gentlemen. 

The Chairman. Our session will begin in the morning at 9 : 30. We 
stand in recess until 9 : 30 in the morning. 

(Whereupon, the hearing was recessed until 9 : 30 a. m., January 
19, 1951.) 



INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



FRIDAY, JANUARY 19, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate Organized 

Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

Cleveland, Ohio. 
The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 9 : 45 a. m., in room 318, 
Federal Building, Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman) presiding. 
Present : Senator Kefauver. 

Also present : Rudolph Halley, chief counsel ; Joseph L. Nellis, as- 
sistant counsel ; George S. Robinson, associate counsel ; John Mc- 
Cormick, investigator. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 
I will say something about our plans for the day. It is going to be 
our effort to finish up today or perhaps with another night session 
tonight, much as we hate to have night sessions and not get to enjoy 
the city of Cleveland and the good associations here. 

We have about 1'2 or 15 witnesses, so I am going to have to ask coun- 
sel to get to the point of the matter with these various witnesses as 
quickly as possible. 

I am glad to have with us this morning Mr. George Robinson, who 
for man} T months has been a splendid associate counsel of our com- 
mittee, who had charge of the office in Washington for quite a while, 
and then later on directed the investigation and inquiry in the city of 
Chicago. Because of the exigencies of the war, Mr. Robinson wis 
called back, and felt required to go back as assistant counsel to the 
Secretary of the Air Force, but he has gotten leave to come on today 
to examine certain Chicago witnesses whom we are supposed to have 
here. 

I may as well check up at this time and see if the three people from 
Chicago or any of them have come in yet. 
Mr. McCormick. Mr. Greenberg is here. 
The Chairman. How about George Mays ? 
Mr. McCormick. He hasn't shown up yet. 
The Chairman. Let's call Mr. DiCarlo at this time. 
Before we get started there, though, is there anyone here who wants 
to testify? I mean, who feels that they have been improperly repre- 
sented before the committee by anyone. 

I will give them an opportunity at this time if they speak up. 
The Chairman. All right, Mr. DiCarlo ? 

Mr. Mock. He is in the city, but I understand he would be here at 
10 o'clock. 

315 

6S958— 51 — pt. 6 21 



316 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. He is outside, I think. What is your name, sir? 
Mr. Mock. Russell Mock. From Youngstown. 
The Chairman. Your address ? 

Mr. Mock. 1003 Mahoning Bank Building, Youngsto%vn, Ohio. 
The Chairman. All right, Mr. DiCarlo, come around. 
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will 
be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 
Mr. DiCarlo. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH DiCARLO, YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO, ACCOM- 
PANIED BY RUSSELL MOCK, ATTORNEY, YOUNGSTOWN, OHIO 

Mr. Nellis. What is your name? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Joseph DiCarlo. 

Mr. Mock. Are you known by any other name ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Never been known as "Doto" ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let the record show that Mr. Russell Mock, attor- 
ney, of Youngstown, Ohio, is appearing with Mr. DiCarlo. 

That is spelled D-e-C-a 

Mr. DiCarlo. D-i. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been arrested? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. In connection with what ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, offhand — gambling. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, did you spend 6 years in the United States peni- 
tentiary at Atlanta? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What was that for ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Conspiracy. 

Mr. Nellis. Conspiracy to what? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, offhand I wouldn't know the charge. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, were you sent there for conspiracy to intimidate 
witnesses in connection with a case pending at that time? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, if that is what is on the record it must be. 

Mr. Nellis. Don't you recall? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I don't recall the cause. 

Mr. Nellis. How about an arrest in Buffalo, in 1930; another in 
1931 and 1936, in connection with suspicion, racketeer, and so forth? 
Do you know about that ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, if it is on the record I must have been arrested. 

Mr. Nellis. How about assaults in 1936, in Chicktawauga Forks, 
N. Y.? Where is that? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Where is that, did you say ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, that is in New York State. 

Mr. Nellis. And assault in Buffalo in 1936. 

Did you register when you went down to Miami under the felony 
law? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 317 

The Chairman. Let's have an answer. Yon brought up matters 
about these felony charges, and he didn't answer. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't he answer? 

The Chairman. I don't think so. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you answer the question? 

Mr. DiCarlo. What was that? 

Mr. Nellis. Were you arrested in Buffalo, N. Y., on about six 
different occasions in connection with various offenses? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I must have been. It that my record there? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, it is. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I must have been. 

Mr. Mock. For the purpose of the record, of course, I wish to object 
to it, because of the remoteness. It has nothing to do with interstate. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Nellis. When you went to Miami Beach, Fla., in 1937, did you 
register as a felon ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I don't know what year. I registered four or 
five different times, but just don't remember the year. 

Mr. Nellis. I offer this record in evidence, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Is this the official record ? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, it is. 

The Chairman. Well, I don't understand this first, here, whether 
assault, first degree — there also seems to be a conspiracy to intimidate 
witnesses. 

Are those different things? Were they different? They seem to be 
each 6 years. 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, there is only one sentence of 6 years, Senator. 

The Chairman. There is an assault back in 1924, and then in 1925 
there seems to be a conspiracy to intimidate witnesses. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I think that is both the same charge. If my 
recollection is right, in 1925 I was in Atlanta. 

The Chairman. It seems to be two different sentences here. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, there can't be. There is only one on that part 
of the time. 

The Chairman. All right. Let the record be made a part of the 
record. 

( The document identified was thereupon received in evidence as 
exhibit No. 70, and appears in the appendix on p. 466.) 

Mr. Nellis. Where were you between December 15 and January 
3 or 4 of this year ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I was in Youngstown and in Buffalo. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know this committee was attempting to serv 
a subpena upon you ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You had no knowledge of that; is that right ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You didn't read the newspaper? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Or hear it on the radio ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You weren't trying to duck service, were you? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Now, what is your business, Mr. DiCarlo? 



318 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I was in the amusement business until a few 
years ago, I would say 6 or 7 years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind of amusement ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I had cigarette machines and music boxes. 

Mr. Nellis. What was your business in Buffalo ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is the business. 

Mr. Nellis. And what caused you to leave there ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I just wanted to leave. 

Mr. Nellis. What year was that ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. 1945* or 1946. 

Mr. Nellis. You just decided to leave Buffalo because the heat was 
on ; is that right ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, there was no heat. 

Mr. Nellis. There was no heat? Well, what made you pick Ohio? 
How did you get here ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I don't think that is important. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, answer my question. The chairman will decide 
whether it is important or not. 

What made you decide to come here ? 

Mr. Mock. I object to it, for the purpose of the record. 

The Chairman. What did you come to Ohio for? That is the 
question. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I just wanted to make a change. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, where did you come first? To Cleveland? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you go ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. To Youngstown. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you come to Cleveland and visit with James 
Licavoli ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You are sure? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. And what did you do when you got to Youngstown? 
What was your business there ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I wasn't in any kind of business. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, what specifically? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. On what grounds, Mr. DiCarlo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Incriminating myself. 

The Chairman. When was this you came to Youngstown ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I don't know. 1945 or 1946. 

The Chairman. Well, incriminate yourself with what ? Could you 
state the offense? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I just refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Well, the Chair will have to direct you to answer, 
Mr. DiCarlo. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I am not going to answer. 

Mr. Mock. Senator, in fairness to the witness, I would like to state 
at this time that with reference to testimony yesterday of Chief Allen, 
there is still in litigation a case involving this man, Mr. Aeillo, and a 
Mi-. Capudo. 

Now, that. case I argued in the supreme court at Columbus. Wednes- 
day. In other words, in fairness to the witness, there is litigation 
pending over the very times that you are asking him about. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 319 

The Chairman. Now, let me get it straight. DiCarlo, Aeillo 
and 

Mr. Mock. Mr. Capudo. 

In the testimony yesterday, with reference to Chief Allen 

The Chairman. Does that case have anything to do with Mr. 
DiCarlo? 

Mr, Mock. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is he one of the defendants ? 

Mr. Mock. He isn't one of the defendants, but he is involved in the 
question, and Mr. Aeillo, who Chief Allen claimed he was in business 
with at that time, is certainly involved, the three of them are there. 

The Chairman. Well, what is the nature of the case ? 

Mr. Mock. Well, it is entitled "a suspicious person," but that is 

The Chairman. It is questioning the legality of the ordinance of 
the city of Youngstown ; is that it ? 

Mr. Mock. It questions the legality of the city ordinance ; it ques- 
tions the right of the city under what we call a bill of particulars in 
this State, setting out certain things pertaining to gambling. It in- 
volves this man's local affairs, and involves Mr. Aeillo's local affairs, 
and due to the fact that it doesn't have anything to do 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Mock, is Mr. DiCarlo one of the de- 
fendants, or is he one of the parties litigant to this case ? 

Mr. Mock. No, but the record does show that the chief is still in- 
vestigating the offense. In other words, the record shows that he at 
that time testified that he was still investigating the case, and there 
would be later on more information or indictments, or probably of- 
fenses filed. Now, that is the reason. 

The Chairman. Of course, Mr. Mock, I am sure you are familiar 
with the decisions of the Supreme Court, that while Mr. DiCarlo 
might have the privilege of not testifying under the fifth amendment 
involving some matter that might incriminate him of a Federal 
offense, he does not have the right to refuse to testify as to some 
matters that might tend to incriminate him of a State offense. 

Mr. Mock. By the same token, under the Constitution of the United 
States and the Constitution of Ohio, there isn't any individual that 
has to testify with reference to incrimination of any State or national 
crime, and there is a question here not only as to gambling, but maybe 
as to another felony, so 

The Chairman. Of course, we are just talking about Mr. DiCarlo 
right now. I can't see that the case pending has anything to do with 
Mr. DiCarlo even if it involves the constitutionality of an ordinance 
of the city of Youngstown. 

Well, anyway, Mr. Mock, I don't know whether you know the law 
better than we do or we know it better than you do, we will have to take 
a chance. 

The question is, Mr. DiCarlo: What business did you enter in 
Youngstown, Ohio, when you came there in 1945 or 1946 ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. And the Chair directs you to answer. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well 

The Chairman. Do you still refuse to answer ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you in business in 1947 ? 



320 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Mock. Senator, in fairness to future questions, I might further 
explain that the other two or three that you subpenaed before the 
committee, they are all involved in that same litigation, as the chief 
has already testified to. There are probably 20 men brought in, and 
under our State constitution they refuse to testify even as city 
witnesses. 

The Chairman. Very well. We understand your point, Mr. Mock. 

Mr. Mock. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. The question is : What was your business in 1947 ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I answered that I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Well, you are directed to answer. You refuse to 
follow the direction of the Chair, isn't that correct ? 

I asked you a question and you. refused to answer, and if I think 
it is a proper question, it is my duty to order you to answer. If I 
order you to answer, then you say you will or you won't. 

Mr. Mock. He refuses to answer on his constitutional rights. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the Woodworth Novelty Co., Woodworth, 
Ohio? 

Mr. DiCarlo. What is it? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes; what is it? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Weren't you associated in that business with some 
people ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you tell the Bureau of Internal Revenue that 
you were associated in that business ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. In the what? 

Mr. Nellis. Woodworth Novelty Co., Woodworth, Ohio. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Woodworth, Ohio? I don't know where Wood- 
worth 

Mr. Mock. Mr. Nellis, there isn't any Woodworth, Ohio. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, that is what the record shows. It shows that the 
witness has received some receipts from a slot-machine business. Now, 
one of the items 

The Chairman. Let's ask it this way : In 1947 or thereabouts, weren't 
you in the slot-machine business? 

Mr. Mock. I object to it. 

The Chairman. All right. You object. Will you answer the 
question ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answer it. 

The Chairman. And you are directed to answer. I direct you to 
answer. Will you answer or will you not ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I won't. 

Mr. Nellis. What was this item in 1948 which you stated that you 
received some income on speculations ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Did you receive some money by virtue of specula- 
tions during the years that we have been talking about, 1946, 1947, 
and 1948, and if so, what was it? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I just don't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you recall that in 1948 when you were in the slot- 
machine business you 

The Chairman. In fairness, the witness hasn't said he was in the 
slot-machine business. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 321 

Mr. Nellis. Whatever business you were in in 1948, did you make 
any pay-offs in connection with that business ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. What do you mean by pay-offs ? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I am asking you. That is the way you described 
it. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I don't get that. 

Mr. Mock. I object to it. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you make any pay-offs in 1948 in connection with 
your business? 

Mr. Mock. I object to the question. 

The Chairman. Will you answer the question ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I don't understand. 

The Chairman. Well, pay-offs, paying money to somebody for pro- 
tection or for some favor or to some enforcement officer. 

Mr. Mock. I object to that because there are many reasons that 
I can give you for paying off. If there is a bet that you won, it might 
be a pay-off. 

The Chairman. Well, anyway, Mr. Mock, let me ask the question. 

Did you, during this time, engage in any pay-offs to police officers 
or public officials ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

The Chairman. In any amount? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

The Chairman. What is this on your books and records called pay- 
offs? 

Mr. Mock. I object to that. 

The Chairman. All right. I am asking you your question. 

Mr. Mock. I think you have covered it in your previous question. 

The Chairman. Mr. Mock, you make your objection, and I will rule 
on it. 

Mr. Mock. At this time I would like to object to the committee at 
this time — in other words, the fact that there is only one member of 
the three-member committee sitting here. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Mock. Just a minute. For the purpose of the record. In my 
opinion, at least, there should be two members of any judicial tribunal 
or any inquiry pertaining to a matter of this kind, and I object to 
only one member of the committee sitting and passing upon the evi- 
dence and interrogating the witness. 

The Chairman. Your objection is overruled. 

Mr. Mock. Exception. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Joseph Aeillo ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Cadillac Charley Cavallaro ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Joseph Melik? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Samuel Halpern ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Just slightly. 

Mr. Nellis. Leo Manley ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know him ? 



322 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Tom Pappas? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that these people, all of them, had given 
statements to the chief of police naming you, Caputo, and Aeillo as 
operating as muscle men in their bookie business when you came to 
Youngstown ? 

Mr. Mock. I object. 

The Chairman. Let's see if he knows that or not. 

Mr. DiCarlo. You asked me if I knew that happened ? No, I don't. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know that ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that Cavallaro told the chief of police 
in a signed statement on April 8, 1948, that DiCarlo and Caputo and 
Aeillo muscled in on his business ? 

Mr. Mock. I object to that for the very same reasons that all of 
these things have been gone over and threshed over a dozen times 
in the courts, Senator, and the very names that 

The Chairman. Mr. Mock, this is not a court. 

Mr. Mock. I understand that, but he has certain rights in any 
judicial tribunal or any inquiry. 

The Chairman. We are trying to find what people do, how they 
operate. 

Mr. Mock. You are trying to find out the old cat that is still in the 
closet for Chief Allen. 

The Chairman. Mr. Mock, we want to get along with you, but you 
are going to have to cooperate. 

Mr. Mock. I am willing to cooperate. 

The Chairman. You remember the question. Did you know that, 
Mr. DiCarlo. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Will you ask me that again. 

The Chairman. Mr. Stenographer, read the question. 

(Question read by reporter.) 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You didn't know that ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. How would I know ? 

Mr. Nellis. Well, did you ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You didn't know ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You said you didn't know Manley, didn't you ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know that Aeillo told Manley that there was 
a new partnership in his bookie joint effective a few days before 
Christmas 1947? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Mock. Wait a minute. I object to the form of the question, 
what he told somebody else. 

The Chairman. He said he didn't know about it, and I doubt if 
that is a question this witness would know about. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact that when you came to Youngstown your 
principal business was to muscle in on the bookie joints in town? 

Mr. Mock. Objection. 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 323 

Mr. Xellis. Is that right ? 

Mr. Mock. Well, go ahead and answer. 

Mr. DiCarlo. What do you want me to tell you ? 

Mr. Nellis. I asked you the question: Wasn't it a fad that your 
principal business when you arrived in Youngstown was to muscle 
in ou the local bookies and take part of their income? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, whose quotation is that? 

Mr. Xellis. I am asking 

Mr. Chairman. That is the question being asked you, Mr. DiCarlo. 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you engage in the bookie business when you were 
in Youngstown? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You have never been in the bookie business? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Not myself ; no. 

The Chairman. Well, I mean in association with people. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answer that, Senator. 

The Chairman. The question is: Were you in association with 
other people in the bookie business in Youngstown in the last, well, 
I guess, 7 years ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answ 7 er. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answer on my constitutional rights. 

Mr. Nellis. I would like to enter these statements in evidence, Sen- 
ator, and identify them as statements given by the persons mentioned, 
Manley, Aeillo 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Nellis, we cannot put them in the record 
as of this time. Do you w T ant to tile them for identification, for ref- 
erence ? 

Mr. Nellis. That is what I want to do. 

The Chairman. They will not become part of the record at this 
time. 

Mr. Nellis. They are simply for identification in connection with 
this witness. 

The Chairman. They have not been proven as to who took the state- 
ments. 

Mr. Mock. And especially any statement that was taken when he 
wasn't present wouldn't be competent. 

The Chairman. Well, unless we can get proof where the statements 
came from, they will not be put in. 

Mr. Mock. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Anthony Milano ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know James Licavoli \ 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. How well do you know him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Just know him. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been in business with him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Ray Lanese? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 



324 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes ; I know Lanese. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you been in business with him in Florida? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Willie Moretti ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Never met him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. What is your brother's name? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Sam. 

Mr. Nellis. Sam DiCarlo? 

Mr. DtCarlo. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Joseph Prof aci ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Ignazio Italiano? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Charles San Filipo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. James Murabello ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know that these persons were arrested here in 
Cleveland, along with about 20 other persons, including your brother, 
Sam, at a raid on the Statler Hotel? 

Do you know about that ? 

Mr. Mock. I object to it. 

Mr. DiCarlo. What was that 

The Chairman. If he knows. 

Mr. Mock. Well, he isn't his brother's keeper, either, Senator. 

The Chairman. Well, doesn't necessarily involve him unless we 
show something. 

Did you say you knew about it or not ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I recall something about it, but I don't think 
that 

Mr. Mock. That is enough. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I just don't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. And your brother was arrested in that raid with Vin- 
cent Mangano. Do you know him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Or Frank Aeillo ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know any of these people ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. What did your brother tell you about being here at 
that time? 

Mr. Mock. Wait a minute. Just a minute. That last question you 
asked, "You don't know any of these people?" Who are you refer- 
ring to ? 

The Chairman. Well, he mentioned the ones he knew and he didn't 
know. 

Mr. Mock. All right. Just so we understand each other. 

Mr. Nellis. Did your brother ever tell you anything about the cir- 
cumstances of that raid? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Could you tell me the date of that raid? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. December 5, 1928. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 325 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I guess on December 5, 1928, 1 was in the peni- 
tentiary. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't he ever write you or tell you about being picked 
up here in Cleveland ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I don't think if he wrote to me the letter would be 
permitted — would be given to me. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Patrick Quigliano, alias Collins? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know William Lupton, mayor of Niagara Falls? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Never met him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions at this time. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley, do you have any questions ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Where were you born ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Italy. 

Mr. Halley. In what year? 

Mr. DiCarlo. 1899. 

Mr. Halley. When did you come to the United States? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I don't know. I don't remember. 

Mr. Nellis. Roughly; were you a young child? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Around maybe 1906 or 1907. I mean, I wouldn't 
know the exact year. 

Mr. Halley. Did somebody bring you? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Your parents? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In what city of the United States did you first live? 

Mr. DiCarlo. New York. 

Mr. Halley. What part of New York ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I was too young. I wouldn't remember. 

Mr. Halley. Was it in the city of New York ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I think it was, I'm not sure. 

Mr. Halley. You were 9 or 10 years old. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I know, you see — I didn't go to school in Italy. 

Mr. Halley. You would know whether you lived in Manhattan. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I know I lived in New York, but I wouldn't know 
just where. 

Mr. Halley. I mean, you do know whether you lived in Manhattan, 
Brooklyn, the Bronx, Queens, Staten Island. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I will tell, at that time I didn't know that there was 
so many boroughs there. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you live in !New York? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Off hand, I would say — well. I don't know — maybe a ' 
year, 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. A year or 2 j^ears ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, but I wouldn't know the exact time. 

Mr. Halley. And then in a year or 2 years you never found out what 
borough you lived in, Mr. DiCarlo ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I wasn't acquainted to the boroughs in them days. 
I mean, now I would know if I lived in New York or Brooklyn. 

Mr. Halley. You were about 10 years old. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. Well, I don't remember. 



326 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You don't really expect me to believe that, do you? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Do you want me to say New York if I don't re- 
member ? 

Mr. Halley. Is that it, you don't remember, or you didn't ever 
know where you lived. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I know we lived in New York. I really don't 
know where. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you move after you left New York, if you 
know ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Buffalo. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you live in Buffalo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Up until— I don't know— 1945 or 1946. 

Mr. Halley. From about 1910 ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Maybe before that. I don't know if it is 1906 or 
1907, around that, you know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go to school in Buffalo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I did. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go to school in New York ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No — I don't remember. 

Mr. Halley. You don't remember? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I don't remember going to school in New York. 

Mr. Halley. Did you start in Buffalo in the first grade ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I guess I did. 

Mr. Halley. You were a fairly big boy at that time, weren't you ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes ; I was — I must have been. 

Mr. Halley. And you started in the first grade in Buffalo ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes; I must have started in the first grade. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in school ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, 10 or 12 years. 

Mr. Mock. Is this important at this time ? 

Mr. Chairman. I think it might be, Mr. Mock. 

Mr. Mock. Well, I beg your pardon. 

The Chairman. I don't know the exact importance of it, but 

Mr. Halley. I am just trying to find out what kind of a guy Mr. 
DiCarlo is. 

Mr. Mock. I suppose he went to school. 

Mr. Halley. The committee is entitled to that, don't you think? 

Mr. Mock. I think so. 

Mr. Halley. When were you born? You said about 1898? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I was born 1899, November 8. 

Mr. Halley. You went to school for 10 or 12 years in Buffalo ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. You came to this country when you were 8 or 9 years 
old? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. I was younger than that. 

Mr. Halley. In 1906? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Maybe 4 or 5 years old, I would say. 

Mr. Halley. For or five years old ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I don't know the exact year, but I would say off- 
hand 4 or 5 years old. 

Mr. Halley. And then you went to Buffalo a year or two later I 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I wouldn't know the exact — how long — I 
wouldn't know the exact time that we lived in New York. I would 
say maybe a couple of years. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 327 

Mr. Halley. So that you were only 6 years old when you went to 
Buffalo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Six or seven years old, I guess. 

Mr. Halley. And you started school there? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And you went through school how far in Buffalo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I went to the first year in high school. 

Mr. Halley. Then what did you do \ 

Mr. DiCarlo. Then what did' I do? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I went in business with my father. 

Mi-. Halley. What business w 7 as that? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Restaurant business. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in the restaurant business? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I stayed in the restaurant business until 1924. The 
early part of 1924 would be about right. 

Mr. Halley. Then what business did you go in ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I had a misfortune. I went to jail. 

Mr. Halley. What was that for? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, the counselor — I told the counselor. 

Mr. Halley. Would you mind telling me? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I don't know. Conspiracy, I told him, I 
guess. 

Mr. Halley. What ? A liquor conspiracy ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr.- Halley. What kind of a conspiracy? 

Mr. DiCarlo. He said it was intimidating, if I 

Mr. Nellis. I didn't say it ; you said it. 

Mr. DiCarlo. You read it out of the record. I didn't say it. 

Mr. Nellis. You agreed it was in the record. 

Mr. Halley. Let's not have an altercation. 

Mr. Mock. Will just one of you counselors ask the question? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. One at a time, please. 

What did you go to jail for? 

Mr. DiCarlo. All I know is conspiracy. 

Mr. Halley. Conspiracy to do what? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, he just read it out. He said intimidating, if 
I'm not mistaken. 

Mr. Halley. In connection with what? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I just wouldn't know — what do you mean? 

Mr. Mock. He means what was it with reference to, a lawsuit, what- 
ever it is. 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Halley. How did you get into that situation as a result of 
which you went to jail? 

What were you doing at the time? 

Mr. Mock. For the purpose of the record, I object to it again be- 
cause I can't see how it would be in any way connected with this case, 
something that happened in a local affair, again. 

The Chairman. Of course, Mr. Mock, everything has got to happen 
somewdiere. 

Mr. Mock. That's right, but if it involves intimidation, as I under- 
stand the word, why, I can't see how it would affect interstate com- 
merce. 



328 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. We will have to see. Anyway, go ahead. 

Mr. Halley. You also had an assault conviction, didn't you, in 
Buffalo? 

Mr. Mock. I wonder if we might see the record and then maybe we 
can help ourselves. 

Mr. Halley. Sure. There is no objection. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Is it all right for me to look at it, too ? 

Mr. Halley. Of course ; yes. 

The Chairman. Sure. 

Mr. Mock. Now, Senator. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Mock, what is it ? 

Mr. Mock. I would like to hand you back the record, and if Mr. 
Halley will take it and look at January 2, 1924, Mr. DiCarlo was then 
sentenced for 6 years at Atlanta, which he already told you about. 
Now, if he was sentenced for 6 years, I understand there was some 
question of the appeal and things of that kind, and then 4-16-25, 
evidently there is some mistake, but it is all the same crime. In other 
words, the 6 years there in Chillicothe in some way for intimidation. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I wasn't sentenced to Chillicothe. I was transferred 
to Chillicothe. 

Mr. Halley. I would presume it was different towns on an indict- 
ment for the same offense. That would be my judgment from my 
experience with matters of this type. 

Mr. Mock. I think it grows out of the same offense. 

Mr. Halley. Apparently there was an assault in connection with 
intimidating a witness of some kind. 

Now, what I am trying to find out from you, Mr. DiCarlo, now that 
3 T our memory is refreshed, who were you trying to intimidate and 
why? 

Mr. Mock. Well, I object to that, because it is remote; it is of no 
importance to this Commission at this time. He has served — now, 
wait a minute. He has served his penalty, and it was strictly a local 
matter, and 

Mr. Halley. May I be heard on that? I think it is important to 
make the point, Mr. Chairman. 

Governor Lausche testified here at the start of this hearing and 
voiced something the committee has found again and again, that 
certain types of criminals don't seem to get convicted because witnesses 
are intimidated to such an extent that it is impossible to prosecute. 
And whether this happened in 1924 or in 1950, as long as it happened 
in connection with this witness, it is relevant and very important to 
this investigation, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Mock. Well then, if the man was convicted of intimidation of 
a witness, then there certainly couldn't be any offense grow out of 
that or couldn't be any damage done to the complaining parties. 

The Chairman. All right. Well, who was it you were alleged to 
have intimidated and what was 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I denied that. I didn't assault anybody and 
I didn't intimidate anybody. 

The Chairman. But you got convicted for it ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Was it in connection with a narcotics case ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I wouldn't know. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 329 

Mr. Halley. Well, was the witness you were dealing with somebody 
who was being charged with a narcotics violation ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, counsel, I didn't plead guilty to that charge; 
I was found guilty. I still maintain I was innocent of that charge 
although the courts convicted me. . 

Mr. Halley. What is the charge of which you were innocent i 

Mr. DiCarlo. Offhand, I just don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Wasn't it intimidating a witness in a narcotics case i 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I have told you, counsel, I still maintain up 
until today that I was innocent of the charge. 

The Chairman. I know, but what is the charge ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. The charge against me was intimidating. 

Mr. Halley. In connection with a narcotics case? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you serve, after 1924 ? How long were 

you in jail? . . . 

Mr. Mock. Well, I object to it; it is remote, immaterial, irrelevant, 

and incompetent. 

Mr. Halley. Well, the record shows he was released in 1928. I ou 
served about 4 years ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I was released in 1928. 

Mr. Mock. I object to it for the same reason, that I can't see how 
it would have any materiality ; just for the purpose of the record, Sen- 
ator, is all I want to have. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Then what business did you go into after you were 
released ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I didn't do much for a while and then I went into 
the amusement business. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what form of amusement business were you 

in? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I was in the vending-machine business. I had 
cigarette machines and music boxes. 

Mr. Halley. Did yon have any slot machines? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No sir. 

Mr. Halley. And what other business have you been in in Buffalo, 
since 1928 and up to 1945 ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is all, amusement business. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what forms of the amusement business ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I answered it. 

Mr. Halley. Just cigarette machines ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is all, and music boxes. 

Mr. Halley. And music boxes ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. No other businesses ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in any gambling business in Buffalo ? 

Mr. Mock. Wait a minute ; I object to it. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I refuse to answer that question, Counselor. 

The Chairman. All right. You are directed to answer and you 
refuse to answer. 

Mr. Halley. Now, in 1945, you decided to leave Buffalo; is that 
right? 



330 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Mock. I object to it, for the reason that it has already been 
answered by the other attorneys in answer to your question. 

The Chairman. Well, the fact is that in about 1945 he did leave 
Buffalo ? 

Mr. Mock. He did leave Buffalo and the claim is he came to Cleve- 
land and 

The Chairman. Well, let's let him testify. 

Mr. Mock. Well, I am objecting. It is already in the record. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Mock, some of your objections are get- 
ting facetious and we are wasting a lot of time with some objections 
which have no foundation. 

Mr. Mock. I don't intend to be facetious. 

The Chairman. The question says in 1945 he decided to leave 
Buffalo. I assume he decided to leave, because he did leave. So I 
can't see why you. would object to him answering. 

Mr. Mock. On the places that he has already answered is all. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Mock, if you will withhold further 
comment. 

Mr. Mock. I am sorry, Senator. 

The Chairman. The question is 1945 you decided to leave Buffalo ; 
is that right ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is right ; around 1945, 1946. 

Mr. Halley. Now, who did you know in Youngstown at that time? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I refuse to answer that question, Counselor. 

The Chairman. What was the question ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. He wants to know who I knew in Youngstown. 

Mr. Halley. At the time you went from Buffalo to Youngstown. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I knew a few fellows around there. 

Mr. Halley. Well, who did you know there ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer it, 

Mr. Halley. At that time, did you know anybody named Joseph 
Aeillo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Haley. You did not know him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know anybody named Milano at that time? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You had never met any of the Milano family ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know any of the Licavoli family ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Who did you know of the Licavoli family ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Pete Licavoli, Jack Licavoli. 

Mr. Halley. How long had you known Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Offhand I would say 25 years. 

Mr. Halley. And where did you meet him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I met him in Buffalo. 

Mr. Halley. And how long had you known Jack Licavoli ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I would say about the same time. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know James Licavoli ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mi-. IIai.lky. At that time, did you know Al Polizzi? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Slightly. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 331 

Mr. Halley. Where and how had you met him ? 
Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I met him, I think the first time I met him was 
in Cleveland. 

Mr. Hallet. Did you know at that time Frank Brancato? 

DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Hallet. Did you know any of the Angersola brothers at that 



M 
Mi 

time 
Mr 
Mi 
Mi 
Mi 
Mr 
Mi 

1945 
Mi 
Mr 

befoi 
Mr 
Mi 



DiCarlo. Just one. 

Hallet. Who did you know ? 

DiCarlo. John. 

Hallet. Where did you meet him ? 

I )iCarlo. I met him here in Cleveland. 

Halley. Had you visited Cleveland from time to time before 



DiCarlo. Oh, yes. 

Halley. You had traveled extensively in the United States 
s 1945? 

DiCarlo. Yes ; I would say yes. 

Halley. Had you done business in any other cities besides 
Buffalo, N. Y., before 1945 ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you visit ? What cities of the United States 
had you visited before 1945 ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Do you want me to mention all the cities? 

Mr. Halley. Well, let me try to short-cut it this way : You had 
been a frequent visitor at Miami, Fla. ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And Cleveland ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And Chicago? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Xo, sir; I was in Chicago for a fight, the Louis- 
Braddoek fight, if I am not mistaken. 

Mr. Halley. When was that ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I would say 10, 12 years ago ; I just don't recall 
the date. 

Mr. Halley. You would return to New York City from time to- 
time? 

Mr. DiCarlo. You say do I go to New York City ? 

Mr. Halley. Before 1945, while you lived in Buffalo. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. And did you visit in New Orleans ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, never was in New Orleans in my life. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Tampa ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Tucson, Ariz. ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have never visited Pete Licavoli at his ranch? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Hot Springs ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go there before 1945 ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Oh, yes ; sure. 

Mr. Halley. Frequently ? 

68958 — 51 — pt. 6 22 



332 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DiCarlo. Not frequently. I wouldn't say that. A couple of 
times. 

Mr. Halley. Had you visited Los Angeles ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I was there once. 

Mr. Halley. San Francisco ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Had you ever been in Tia Juana, Mexico ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Now, do you know Joe Massey ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I just know of him. I wouldn't say I know 
him. I wouldn't know him if I saw him. 

Mr. Halley. And do you know Charles Fischetti ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or Kocco Fischetti ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or Tony Accardo ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Adonis ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Willie Moretti? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He is sometimes called Willie Moore. 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You do not know. Do you know Frank Costello? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Halley. Now, in Cleveland, have you ever had any business 
dealings with Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any with Jerry Milano ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or Tony Milano ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or with Fred, John, or George Angersola? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had dealings with them in any other 
place beyond Celveland ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Now, have you had business dealings with Joseph 
Aeillo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Mock. Just a minute. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer it. Do you refuse to 
answer ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had business dealings with Dominic 
Capudo ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have? 

Mr DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Youngstown, Ohio. 

Mr. Halley. And what was the nature of those business dealings? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I refuse to answer that question. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 333 

Mr. Halley. Have you had business dealings with Charles Vicinni ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, do I understand that you have directed 
the witness to reply to the question about whether or not he had 
business dealings with Capudo? 

Mr. Mock. He has answered. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I said "Yes." 

Mr. Halley. But you refused to state what the dealings were. 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is right. 

The Chairman. And I directed you to answer. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes; and I refused again. 

Mr. Mock. For the same reason as to the previous 

Mr. Halley. Have you had business dealings with Tony D'Allas- 
sandro ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I don't even know who he is. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any dealings with Dick Tamburello? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any with Charles Caballero? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever stayed at the WofFord Hotel in Miami 
Beach? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. In what year did you stay at the Wofford Hotel at 
Miami Beach? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I would say offhand, I would think, 1947, 1946 ; 
that is about the only 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. And what other hotels at Miami Beach do you stay at? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, that is the only hotels I have stayed the last two 
times I have been there. 

Mr. Halley. Well, have you ever been at any other hotel besides 
the Wofford? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what is that ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, the Shoreham. And the Normandy, I guess I 
stayed one season. 

Mr. Halley. The Normandy ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I guess that is it. The Normandy. 

Mr. Halley. But the last two times you stayed at the Wofford ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to the management at the 
Wofford I 

Mr. DiCarlo. I didn't have to be introduced. I just checked in. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you knew that John King was one of the owners, 
did you not ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, it was rumored ; I wouldn't swear to it. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you saw John King down there, did you not? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you meet Little Augie Pisano down there ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I saw him ; I don't know him. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you ever say "Hello" to him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, maybe I said "Hello" to him. 

Mr. Halley. Were you introduced to him ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 



334 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever play cards in one of the large card games 
at the Wofford ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long were you at the Wofford in 19-17 ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Oh, I don't know ; a month. 

Mr. Halley. And how long were you at the Wofford in 1946 1 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I would say a month. 

Mr. Halley. A month in each case ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Or maybe a week or 3 weeks or 5 weeks. 

Mr. Halley. Were you there alone or with somebody else I 

Mr. DiCarlo. With my family. 

Mr. Halley. With your family? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That 'is right. 

Mr. Halley. Now, in Youngstown, what has been your business? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Why, I refuse to answer that, counselor. 

Mr. Halley. Were you working when you were in Miami or were 
you on vacation ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Just vacationing. 

Mr. Halley. During the season? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And do you have any legitimate business at this time? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When have you last had a legitimate business? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, let me see. I just don't know when I sold my 
business out. It must have been around 1938. 

Mr. Halley. 1938? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. What was your last legitimate business? 

Mr. DiCarlo. The vending machine business. 

Mr. Halley. The vending machine business ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. From 1938 to 1945, did you have any legitimate 
business? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, and then of course, for them years I was in 
jail, I guess, 2 or 3 years ; I think it was 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. I guess that was a legitimate occupation. What 
did you do the rest of the time? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I had a job in there, counselor. 

Mr. Halley. Now, what did you do the rest of the time? Did you 
have any legitimate occupation? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. So that except for the period during which you were 
in jail, you had no legitimate occupation? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I was out of work, counselor. 

Mr. Halley. Well, out of work. You couldn't afford to spend a 
month at the Wofford Hotel in the season with your family, could 
you ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I — there is a lot of retired people go to Miami 
if I am not mistaken. 

Mr. Halley. Are you a retired gentleman, Mr. DiCarlo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, not exactly. Right at (he present time I am. 

Mr. Halley. In any event, since L938 you have been retired from 
legitimate activities? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 335 

Mr. Halley. I think that is all. 

Mr. Mock. Is that all, sir? 

The Chairman. I think Mr. Nellis has one or two questions. 

Mr. Nellis. Do yon own a home ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any real property ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What do you estimate your net worth to be at this 
time ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Nothing. 

Mr. Nellis. Zero ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Zero. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you own a car ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind? 

Mr. DiCarlo. A Cadillac. 

Mr. Nellis. What year? 

Mr. DiCarlo. 1948. 

Mr. Nellis. Any other cars? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever make any political contributions? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Nellis. In any of the cities in which you have lived? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. No further questions. 

The Chairman. What companies did you handle juke boxes for? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Chippewa Amusement Co. 

The Chairman. Out of Chicago, or where ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No ; it is my own — you said what companies did I do 
business with? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. DiCarlo. I guess Mills. 

The Chairman. And what others? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Oh, offhand I wouldn't know 7 , Senator. My partner 
used to handle most of that buying. 

The Chairman. Well, anyway, who was your partner? 

Mr. DiCarlo. His name was Joe Anselloni. 

The Chairman. Where does he live? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, he has been away from Buffalo. 

Mr. Mock. He said where does he live? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is what I am going to answer. 

The Chairman. Did he live in Buffalo? 

Mr. DiCarlo. That is right, 

The Chairman. Where does he live now ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I wouldn't know. He has been gone from Buffalo 
the past 10 or 12 years. I don't know where he is. 

Mr. Mock. That is the answer. 

The Chairman. Were you in business in Youngstown with Phil 
Eose? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Solly Engel ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know them ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Yes, sir ; slightly. 



336 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Do you know Joe Mellik ? 
Mr. DiCarlo. Slightly. 

The Chairman. Were you in business with him? 
Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, you did have a business interest in the Italian 
Village restaurant? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I was going in business there, and we had an 
agreement, but the deal never went through. I had a deposit up, but 
I withdraw from it before I got into it. 

The Chairman. Wasn't one of Joe Massey's relatives in the busi- 
ness there ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I wouldn't know. 
Mr. Halley. That was Ray Lanese, wasn't it? 
Mr. DiCarlo. I wouldn't know. I know Ray Lanese. 
The Chairman. His wife is a niece of Joe Massey's, isn't she? 
Mr. DiCarlo. Is she ? I wouldn't know. I know Ray. I wouldn't 
know if they are related. 

The Chairman. All right. I believe that is all. 
Mr. Halley. May I ask one or two more questions ? 
Is Ray Lanese related to Louie Lanese, here in Cleveland? 
Mr. DiCarlo. I wouldn't know him. 
Mr. Halley. You wouldn't know that ? 
Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know James Licavoli ? 
Mr. DiCarlo. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. He was once in partnership with Louie Lanese, here 
in Cleveland, wasn't he? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I don't know any of Jack Licavoli's business. 
Mr. Halley. When he got out of jail, did he go into the storm- 
window business with Louie Lanese? 

Mr. DiCarlo. I never heard — I am not interested. 
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vincent Mangine ? 
Mr. DiCarlo. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Rose Licavoli, who is married to Vincent 
Mangine ? 

Mr. DiCarlo. Rose Licavoli? I don't know no Rose Licavoli. I 
think you have got that wrong, counselor. 
Mr. Halley. Well, her real name is Rosaline. 
Mr. DiCarlo. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know any Rosaline Licavoli ? 
Mr. DiCarlo. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know the whole family ? 
Mr. DiCarlo. The Licavoli family? 
Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I know Pete and Jack, and I know his sister 
Grace. That is about all. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know his sister Rose? 
Mr. DiCarlo. No ; I don't . 

Mr. Halley. When you say "Jack," do you mean James? 
Mr. DiCarlo. Well, I don't know. I know him by Jack. It might 
be James. 

Mr. Halley. Thank you. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Thank you, Senator. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 337 

The Chairman. Mr. DiCarlo, you have to remain under continued 
subpena of the committee, without serving any notices or subpena, to 
be available if we want you again. 

You have refused to answer certain questions, and I will have to 
make a recommendation that some appropriate action be made in 
connection therewith. 

Mr. DiCarlo. Thank you, Senator. 

Mr. Mock. All right. 

The Chairman. All right. Who is next? 

I asked yesterday that Chief Allen furnish certain records about 
people about whom he testified and I think all these records at present 
will be made part of the record. 

(The documents above referred to were previously identified as 
exhibit No. 63. See p. 240.) 

The Chairman. Has Mr. May come in yet ? Mr. George May ? 

Mr. McCormick. The only one who has showed up is Mr. Greenberg. 
(The committee at this time heard the testimony of Alex Green- 
berg, Chicago, 111., which is included in part 5 of the hearings of the 
committee.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Licavoli, come around, please. 

Gentlemen, we have got to get along very much faster than we 
have been, and I know it is the chairmaivs fault that we haven't. 

Mr. Licavoli, will you come over here ? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir, I do. 

The Chairman. Now, Counselor, what is your name, sir? 

Mr. LaPolla. D. J. LaPolla, L-a-P-o-l-l-a. 

The Chairman. Where are you an attorney at law ? 

Mr. LaPolla. Warren, Ohio. 

The Chairman. Mr. Licavoli, what is your address? 

Mr. Licavoli. 1953 East One Hundred and Twenty-first. 

The Chairman. 1953 what? 

Mr. Licavoli. East One Hundred and Twenty -first. 

The Chairman. East a hundred and 

Mr. Licavoli. Twenty-first. 

The Chairman. Warren, Ohio? 

Mr. Licavoli. No; Cleveland. 

The Chairman. Cleveland, Ohio? 

Mr. Licavoli. Cleveland is my residence. 

The Chairman. Cleveland. 

All right, Mr. Nellis, let's get to it. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES LICAVOLI, CLEVELAND, OHIO, ACCOM- 
PANIED BY D. J. LaPOLLA, ATTORNEY, WARREN, OHIO 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Licavoli, have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How many times? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. Many times. 

Mr. Nellis. Five? Ten? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know ; maybe 10, 20, 1 don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. It was at least 20, wasn't it? 

Mr. Licavoli. Maybe more. 



338 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever go to jail ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Nellis. What crime? 

Mr. Licavoli. 1945 I went to jail. 
Mr. Nellis. What crime? 

Mr. Licavoli. Extortion. 

Mr. Nellis. Extortion? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What were the facts of that, briefly ? What were you 
convicted of ? Who were you convicted of extorting something from ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's in Toledo. I don't know. I copped a plea on 
extortion. 

Mr. Nellis. You did what ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I just copped a plea on extortion. 

Mr. Nellis. And you went to jail from 

Mr. Licavoli. From one to five. 

Mr. Nellis. One to five years ; is that right ? Were you paroled ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What time was that ? 

Mr. Licavoli. In 1946. 

Mr. Nellis. Who was your sponsor for that parole ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Father McBride and I think Thompson was. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is Thompson ? 

Mr. Licavoli. A contractor. 

Mr. Nellis. Is he Forrest Thompson, of 631 Guardian Building? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. I think it is him. 

Mr. Nellis. From Cleveland, Ohio ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you related to Pete Licavoli ? 

Mr. Licavoli. First cousin. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you related to Thomas Licavoli, also known as 
Yonnie ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes ; first cousin. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is he ? 

Mr. Licavoli. He is up in Columbus. 

Mr. LaPolla. I object. That's not pertinent to this cause here. 

The Chairman. Mr. Counselor, I think it is; so your objection will 
be overruled. 

Mr. Nellis. You are related to Thomas ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. First cousin ; is that right ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any sisters ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Four sisters. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you give us their names, please? 

Mr. Licavoli. Grace, Phyllis, Lena, and Anne. 

Mr. Nellis. Grace is married to Frank Cammerata; is that right? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. She is a cousin of mine. 

Mr. Nellis. She is a cousin of yours ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. Wait a minute, now. That is not clear. 

Mr. Licavoli. Grace is related. That's Pete's sister. 

Mr. Nellis. Pete's sister, and she is a first cousin of yours ; is that 
rijrht? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 339 

Mr. Licavoli. First cousin. 

Mr. Nellis. The other sister Grace is married to whom ? 

Mr. Licavoli. She lives in St. Louis. 

Mr. Nellis; Who is she married to ? 

Mr. Licavoli. LeGrasso. 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me ? 

Mr. Licavoli. LeGrasso. 

Mr. Nellis. You mentioned another sister, Bosalyn ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Phyllis— Phyllis Rollo. 

Mr. Nellis. What is her name? 

Mr. Licavoli. Rollo. 

Mr. Nellis. Where does she live? 

Mr. Ltcavoli. St. Louis. 

Mr. Nellis. Another sister? 

Mr. Licavoli. Lena. She is Barberodo. 

Mr. Nellis. She is married to Barberodo ? 

Mr. Licavoli. In St. Louis. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have a sister named Rosalyn ? 

]\Ir. Licavoli. Anne McDonald. 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me ? 

Mr. Licavoli. McDonald. She is under the marriage by McDonald. 

Mr. Nellis. Who is she married to? 

Mr. Licavoli. McDonald. St. Louis, too. 

Mr. Nellis. Don't you have a sister that is married to Vincent 
Mangine? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Not your sister? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

The Chairman. Is it a relative ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No relation at all. 

Mr. Nellis. What is your business? 

Mr. La Polla. I object, now. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Nellis. What business have you been in ? 

The Chairman. Wait just a minute. Let's get this straight. 

Mr. Nellis. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. The question was, What is your business? 

Mr. La Polla. We enter an objection, may it please the Senator. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. Do you refuse the 
direction of the Chair ? 

Mr. Licavoli. It tends to incriminate myself. 

The Chairman. Let's get this straight. 

Mr. Licavoli. My records show what it was. 

The Chairman. Your records will show what? 

Mr. Licavoli. My records, my books. 

The Chairman. Will show what business you were in ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. You want to testify about your records? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Or these books ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, I don't care to. 

The Chairman. Mr. Counsellor, just exactly what is the objection? 



340 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. La Polla. The objection is, may it please the Senator, that the 
question is not pertinent to the cause before this committee and his 
answer may tend to incriminate him. 

The Chairman. Of what? 

Mr. La Polla. Of a crime, of a crime that he may say he was in- 
volved in something else. At this time we do not care to answer to 
anything pertaining to what business you are in. 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, Senator, excuse me. I refuse to answer all 
questions. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer all questions ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. Any and all questions? 

Mr. Licavoli. Any questions, all questions. 

Mr. La Polla. Anything pertaining to his business. 

Mr. Licavoli. Business or not, I refuse to answer all questions. 

The Chairman. Anyway, answer the question, what business you 
were in. The Chairman directs you to answer. You refuse to answer % 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the Girard Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. You are directed to. 

Mr. La Polla. Refuse to answer. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Mike Farah ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't it a fact that you and Mike Farah and the Hanna 
brothers and John Peter Cupell are partners in the Girard Novelty 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Ask the question and state the place where it is 
alleged that the Girard Novelty Co. does business and what the alleged 
nature of the business is. 

Mr. Nellis. Girard Novelty Co. is 

The Chairman. Ask it in the form of a question. 

Mr. Nellis. Is the Girard Novelty Co. located at 303 Bobbins Ave- 
nue, Niles, Ohio ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Where ? 

Mr. Nellis. Niles, Ohio. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer, Mr. Licavoli. 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear of Girard Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. The chairman directs you to answer that question. 
What is the nature 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 341 

Mr. La Polla. We object to it. 

The Chairman. Let me ask the question. 

Mr. La Polla. I am sorry, sir. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. You don't know what the question is yet, Mr. Li- 
cavoli. 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, I don't have to answer that. 

The Chairman. You mean whatever question it is going to be you 
don't want to answer ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Pertaining to my business, I don't care to answer it. 

The Chairman. Well, I will ask the question, anyway. What is 
the nature of the business of the Girard Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. La Polla. We object. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. You refuse ? 

Mr. Licavoli. (Nodding head affirmatively.) 

The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the Triangle Novelty Co. at Warren ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that, too. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you refuse ? 

Mr. Licavoli. (Nodding head affirmatively.) 

The Chairman. Sir? 

Mr. Licavoli. I do refuse. 

The Chairman. We have got to get it on the record. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear of the Triangle Novelty ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer it. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know 

The Chairman. Well, now, Mr. Counselor and Mr. Licavoli, can 
we have this agreement, that the usual procedure 

Mr. Licavoli. Senator, anything that pertains to the business I don't 
care to answer. 

The Chairman. Well, I know, but wait. Let me ask this. The 
usual procedure is that a question is asked, you refuse to answer, then 
it is the duty of the chairman to order or direct you to answer, and 
then it is the refusal to follow the directions of the chairman that is 
the basis for some kind of action. Can we have an understanding 
that unless the Chair withdraws the questions or orders the question 
to be withdrawn, that if you refuse to answer, then it will be under- 
stood that the Chair will have ordered you to answer and that you 
refuse to follow the orders of the Chair ? 

Mr. La Polla. The record may so stipulate. 

The Chairman. You understand that, Mr. Licavoli, do you? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't understand it. 

Mr. La Polla. It means 

The Chairman. You don't understand it? Well, we had better — 
do you understand it, Mr. Counsel ? 

Mr. La Polla. I understand that anything pertaining to your busi- 
ness, why, you don't care to answer it ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't care to answer it. 

The Chairman. I am just trying to prevent going through the cere- 
mony of ordering him to answer a question. 



342 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. La Polla. It will be denied, refused, Senator. 

The Chairman. Do you understand ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. You say you do ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I do. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Vincent ''Doc" Mangine ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I do. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you in a business with him in 1947 ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No business. I worked for him. 

Mr. Nellis. What was his business at that time ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Tavern. 

Mr. Nellis. Pardon me ? 

Mr. Licavoli. A saloon he had. 

Mr. Nellis. A saloon. Was that a business which Lonardo, Satullo, 
and Joe Artwell were partners in? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the Wagon Wheel ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's a saloon ; it is a bar. 

Mr. Nellis. It is a saloon ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Going back to your parole from prison, do you recall 
when that was ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir, in 1945. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you go after you were paroled ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I went to Vincent Mangine's home. I worked for 
him managing the restaurant downstairs and the parole officer told me 
I can't work in no bar, so I worked for — I got in business for Alsco 
Storm Window Co. in 1946. 

Mr. Nellis. Alsco ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Prior to going to live with Doc Mangine, did you live 
with Jerry Milano ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. On Dorothy Avenue ? 

Mr. Licavoli. On Dorothy Avenue. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I can't recall. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I know him for quite a while. 

Mr. Nellis. You know Anthony Milano ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I heard of him ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you met him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Never met him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I seen him, I know of him, say "Hello" to him, if it is 
important, grocery store he has got. 

Mr. Nellis. Then after you left Milano's home, you went to live 
with Doc Mangine, is that right ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Is this Forrest Thompson in any way connected with 
Al Polizzi, do you know ? 

Mr. Licavoli. At that time ; no. 

Mr. Nellis. Is he now ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 343 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you hear that he testified here yesterday that they 
were in business together ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I didn't pay no attention to it. 

Mr. Nellis. But you heard it, didn't you ? You know that ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, We know what the testimony was. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you also know that he testified that Mangine was 
in business with him there ? 

Mr. La Polla. We object to that line of questioning, sir, not 
pertinent. 

The Chairman. What did the witness say ? 

Mr. La Polla. He didn't answer yet. 

The Chairman. Kead the question. 

(Question read.) 

The Chairman. Do you know it or not ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. And that Thompson, Mangine, and Polizzi were 
engaged in the construction business? 

Mr. La Polla. I object to that question, Senator. 

The Chairman. I think I will sustain the objection because we have 
got the record here, unless the witness knows something about it. 

Mr. Nellis. I am asking him whether he knows. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about it? Just answer 
whether you know anything about it. 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. I didn't pay no attention to that. 

Mr. Nellis. Is this the same Forrest Thompson who sponsored vouv 
parole in 1946 ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Which one? 

Mr. Nellis. Who is connected with Al Polizzi. 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know if he is connected or not. I know there 
is a Thompson sponsored my parole. 

Mr. Nellis. Is he the same Forrest Thompson ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I couldn't tell you. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Let's get at the matter. Where was he living whan 
he sponsored your parole ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, Nick Mangine is the one that sponsored my 
parole, Forrest Thompson, I don't know the man. 

The Chairman. You don't know him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, I don't know him. 

The Chairman. Did he have anything to do with your parole, writ- 
ing any letters for you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know if he did or not. 

The Chairman. Offered to give you a job if you. got out; was that 
part of it ? 

Mr. Licavoli . That's part of it. Somebody wrote, Nick Mangine 
was telling me, some contractor. 

The Chairman. Take your hand away from your mouth. Some 
contractor was going to give you a job when you got out ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that correct? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

The Chairman. Was that Mr. Thompson, do you know ? 



344 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know if it is him. If I see him I would know. 

Mr. Halley. May I try to clarify that for a moment ? 

When you were released from prison, you were paroled ; is that 
right? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. In order to be paroled you had to have somebody 
sponsor you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Sponsor, that's right. 

Mr. Halley. And you talked to somebody about getting a sponsor ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, my lawyer did. 

Mr. Halley. To whom did your lawyer talk ? 

Mr. Licavoli. He must have talked to Thompson and Father 
McBride. 

Mr. Halley. He talked to Mangine, didn't he ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's Nick Mangine. That's the lawyer. 

Mr. Halley. Nick Mangine? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Is he related to 

Mr. Licavoli. That is a brother of Vincent Mangine. 

Mr. Halley. He said he would get you a sponsor ? 

Mr. Licavoli. A sponsor, yes. 

Mr. Halley. You had never seen Thompson in your life, is that 
right, up to this time? 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, if I would see the picture, I would see him, I 
would know if I would or not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know Thompson when he sponsored you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No ; I didn't know Thompson when I was sponsored. 

Mr. Halley. That's right. Then when you did get out of prison, 
did you go to work for Thompson ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. What did you do instead ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I worked for the Wagon Wheel. I talked to my 
parole officer and he said it was all right for me to go to work at the 
maintenance of the restaurant in the Wagon Wheel. 

Mr. Halley. At the Wagon Wheel ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Who was your employer there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know the employer. 

Mr. Halley. You don't know who gave you the job ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Oh, Mangine, Vincent Mangine. 

Mr. Halley. Vincent Mangine gave you the job? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes; that's right. 

Mr. Halley. Then you went to live with Vincent Mangine as well ?' 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you live with Vincent Mangine? 

Mr. Licavoli. Until about 1949. 

Mr. Halley. Until about 1949 ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Where did Mangine live? 

Mr. Licavoli. He lived 83—2383 Kingston Road. 

Mr. Halley. Did he ever go to Florida, do you know ? 

Mr. Licavoli. He went to Florida. 

Mr. Halley. Did he have a business in Florida ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 345 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know if he had or not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to Florida? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He never took you with him? 

Mr. Licavoli. Never went. 

Mr. Halley. Did you also go to work for Louis Lanese ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir; that's in the storm-window business. 

Mr. Halley. What? 

Mr. Licavoli. Storm-window business. 

Mr. Halley. Storm-window business. How did you know Louis 
Lanese? 

Mr. Licavoli. Through Doc — the lawyer, Nick Mangine. 

Mr. Halley. Through Nick Mangine? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Had you met Louis Lanese previously? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Ray Lanese ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Ray Lanese; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He is related to Louis Lanese, isn't he? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. No relation at all ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No relation at all. 

Mr. Halley. Is Ray Lanese related to you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. He runs the Italian Village restaurant, doesn't he ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I knew him in Cleveland. 

Mr. Halley. In Miami ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know if he does or not. I know Ray through 
Cleveland. 

Mr. Halley. You knew him in Cleveland ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How did you meet Ray Lanese? 

Mr. Licavoli. He had a dry-cleaning place on Euclid. 

Mr. Halley. When was that? 

Mr. Licavoli. Oh, I say in 1944 or 1943 or 1944. 

Mr. Halley. After you got out of prison did you ever get to meet 
Forrest Thompson at all ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I met him a few times. 

Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Met him in the Wagon Wheel. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Lanese — I mean Mangine ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Vincent Mangine ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. No further questions. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been in any legitimate business? 

Mr. Licavoli. Legitimate business outside of storm-window bus- 
iness. 

Mr. Nellis. When were you in the stock-market business? 

The Chairman. Storm-window business. 

Mr. Licavoli. Storm windows. 

Mr. Nellis. Storm-window business. Is that the only one? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How have you earned your living? 



346 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Licavoli. How did I earn my living? 

Mr. Nellis. How did you earn your living? How long were you 
in that business with the Alseo Co. ? 

Mr. Licavoli. One year. 
. Mr. Nellis. One year? What year was that ? 

Mr. Licavoli. '47. 

Mr. Nellis. How have you earned your living since then? 

Mr. Licavoli. Since when ? 

Mr. Nellis. Since 1947. 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Nellis. How are you earning your living now? 

The Chairman. Do we understand 

Mr. LaPolla. We have the understanding, that's right. Senator. 

The Chairman. He is directed to answer the question. 

Mr. LaPolla. That's right, Senator. 

Mr. Nellis. How are you earning your living now? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been in California ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Arizona? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you go in Arizona ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Went to my cousin's ranch. I went to Pete's ranch, 
my cousin's ranch. 

Mr. Nellis. Where is that ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's in Tucson. 

Mr. Nellis.- What kind of a place is it ? 

Mr. Licavoli. It is a ranch. 

Mr. Nellis. What does he do on it ? Raise horses ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know what he does. He don't raise no horses. 
He has got a few horses. 

Mr. Nellis. Does he have a private landing field there 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. For private aircraft? 

Mr. Licavoli. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever been in Mexico ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Jack Dragna? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. The Fischetti brothers? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You know Joe DiCarlo, don't you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Quite a while. 

Mr. Nellis. How long? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know, quite a while. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you know him before he came to Youngstown? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. What was his business in Buffalo? 

Mr. Licavoli. I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Nellis. How did you know him before he came to Youngs- 
town ? Who introduced you to him ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 347 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know how I met him. I can't recall. 

Mr. Nellis. You remember where ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you go up to Youngstown? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. To Buffalo? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Did he meet you here in Cleveland? 

Mr. Licavoli. I met him at the fights a few times. 

Mr. Nellis. Where ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Fights. 

Mr. Nellis. Where? What city? 

Mr. Licavoli. Cleveland here. 

Mr. Nellis. He came down here ? 

( Mr. Licavoli nodding head affirmatively.) 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever discuss with him the possibilities of his 
moving out of Buffalo, N. Y. ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have anything to do with bringing him down 
to Cleveland ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have anything to do with setting him up in 
business in Youngstown? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever hear what his business was there? 

(Mr. Licavoli shaking head negatively.) 

Mr. Nellis. Were you in business with him while he was in 
Youngstown ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. At any time ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Has he given you any money since 1945? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Never ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Never. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Joe Massey ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you meet him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I know him from Detroit. Oh, it is quite a while 
ago. I don't know how long, a long time ago. 

Mr. Nellis. A long time. Have you been up to Detroit to see 
him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I have been to Detroit but not to see him, Joe Massey, 
to see my aunt and relations. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you ever meet him in Toledo, Ohio ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Never saw him there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Never saw him. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Joseph Prof aci ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Sam DiCarlo ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Sam DiCarlo? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

68958— 51— pt. 6 23 



348 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Joseph DiCarlo's brother Sam. 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know him. 

Mr. Nellis. You don't know him? 

Mr. Licavoli. Oh, you mean Toto ? They call him — yes, sir, I know 
him. 

Mr. Nellis. He is known as Toto ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Toto. 

Mr. Nellis. Which one is known as Toto ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Sam is. My mistake. 

Mr. Nellis. Where did you meet him? 

Mr. Licavoli. I met him in Toledo. 

Mr. Nellis. How long ago ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Oh, quite a while ago. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any business dealings with him? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Of any sort? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Frank Brancato ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Quite a while. 

Mr. Nellis. Who introduced you to him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Who introduced me, I don't know. I can't remem- 
ber who introduced him. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his business ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Rocco Russo? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Never met him? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Cammerata ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Is he a relation of yours ? 

Mr. Licavoli. He is a relation through marriage ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in business with him? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike and Louie Carriere? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who are they ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I just know them. I don't know 

Mr. Halley. What is their business? 

Mr. Licavoli. I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in business with them ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever a member of a gang called the Eagen's 
Rats in St. Louis ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You came from St. Louis, didn't you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of a gang called Eagen's Rats? 

Mr. Licavoli. I did. 

Mr. Halley. What was their business? 

Mr. Licavoli. I couldn't tell you. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 349 

Mr. Halley. When did you come here from St. Louis ( When did 
you come here from St. Louis \ 

Mr. Licavoli. Here from St. Louis? 

Mr. Halley. When did you move? 

Mr. Licavoli. I left St. Louis in 15)26. 

Mr. Halley. In 1926 you moved to Cleveland, is that right? 

Mr. Licavoli. No; I didn't. To Detroit. 

Mr. Halley. To Detroit? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long did you live there? 

Mr. Licavoli. To 1929 in Detroit. 

Mr. Halley. And you moved from Detroit to Cleveland, is that 
right ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Toledo. 

Mr. Halley. Toledo. How long did you live there? 

Mr. Licavoli. About 3 years, then went back to Detroit. 

Mr. Halley. You went back to Detroit 

Mr. Licavoli. And 

Mr. Halley. Go ahead. 

Mr. Licavoli. Then I come back to Cleveland. I come in Cleveland 
in '38. 

Mr. Halley. And you have had a continuous residence in this city 
more or less since that time '. 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mi-. Halley. And you have earned your living here, whatever it 
is, is that right? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know John Murabella ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Who is he? 

Mr. Licavoli. I just know him. 

Mr. Halley. Where is he from ? 

Mr. Licavoli. He is out of the same town I am. 

Mr. Halley. Pardon me. 

Mr. Licavoli. He is out of St. Louis. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear that he was arrested here in Cleve- 
land in 1928? 

Mr. Licavoli. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. With a group of other gentlemen from other parts 
of the country ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That is something I couldn't tell you. I don't know. 
As far as knowing him, I know him. 

Mr. Halley. Pardon me. 

Mr. Licavoli. As far as knowing him, I know him. I couldn't 
tell you if he was arrested or not. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?" 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. When was the last time you saw him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Last time I saw him must have been about 14 years, 
ago. 

Mr. Halley. You haven't seen him since then ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't you visit him in St. Louis recently? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 



350 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. You were down there, weren't you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. I visited my people down there. 

Mr. Halley. Sometime in December? 

Mr. Licavoli. No — December? 

Mr. Halley. 1950. Did you go down to St. Louis ? 

Mr. Licavoli. My father passed away. 

Mr. Halley. You went to a funeral ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Purple Gang? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Never heard of it ? 

(Mr. Licavoli shakes head negatively.) 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever read about it in the papers? 

Mr. Licavoli. I read about it in the papers, but I never heard of it. 

Mr. Halley. You read about it in the papers, but you never heard 
of it? 

Mr. Licavoli. I read it, but I never heard 

Mr. Halley. What is your answer ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, I heard it. 

Mr. Halley. You heard about it, didn't you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. All right. 

Mr. Halley. Sure,«you did. 

Who did you hear were members of that gang ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I can't tell you. I don't know. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever discuss that with your cousin ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Ever discuss it with Yonnie ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Thomas J. McGinty ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Morris Kleinman ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I know Morris. 

Mr. Halley. How well do you know him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Not so good. 

Mr. Halley. When did you meet him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I met him on a golf course. 

Mr. Halley. Who introduced you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Nobody. 

Mr. Halley. You just walked up to him and said "Hello" ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. I met him, and just met him on the golf course. 

Mr. Halley. How do you meet these people ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know how I meet them. I meet so many. 
3 don't know. 

Mr. Halley. When I meet someone I am either introduced or I walk 
up and tell them my name. How do you meet them ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I just happened to be playing golf and ran into him. 

Mr. Halley. And you just introduced each other: is that right? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Moe Dalitz ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Never met him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. I Ialley. Do yon know Louis Ivothkopf ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 351 

Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. In the fights I met him. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any business dealings ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No business dealings. 

Mr. Halley. With any of these people? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Chuck Polizzi ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known him? 

Mr. Licavoli. For quite a while. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any business dealings with him? 

Mr. Licavoli. No dealings with him. 

Mr. Halley. Of any sort? 

(Mr. Licavoli shakes head negatively.) 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever go into any gambling ventures with 
him ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in gambling ventures with anyone 
else ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Halley. You refuse to answer that question ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

Mr. Nellis. That is all I have. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever wounded by a bullet ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Wounded by a bullet ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

(Mr. Licavoli shakes head affirmatively.) 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever shot ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. When and where? 

Mr. Licavoli. That was in St. Louis. 

Mr. Halley. In St. Louis? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Who shot you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. A police officer. 

Mr. Halley. A police officer? 

(Mr. Licavoli shakes head affirmatively.) 

Mr. Halley. How did that happen ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. Just shot at us. 

Mr. Halley. He shot at you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. He shot at us. 

Mr. Halley. Ho shot at you. Did 3 r ou shoot back at him? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Wore you arrested on that occasion ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you go to the hospital ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes; I went to the hospital. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever wounded on any other occasions? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How many times were you arrested in St. Louis ? 

Mr. Licavoli. St. Louis ? I don't know. I couldn't — maybe a dozen 
times, maybe two dozen ; I don't know. 



352 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. Maybe two dozen ? 
Mr. Licavoli. Yes. I couldn't- 



Mr. Halley. I have the record here from Detroit, Mr. Licavoli, 
and it shows that in Detroit you were arrested 22 times ; not quite 2 
dozen; would that be about right? 

Mr. Licavoli. It might be. You got the figures. Figures don't lie. 

Mr. Halley. Have you been arrested in Toledo ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. How many times ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I can't tell you. Maybe two or three times in Toledo. 

Mr. Halley. Have you been arrested in Cleveland ? 

Mr. Licavoli. A couple of times. 

Mr. Halley. And in Columbus, that is where you 

Mr. Licavoli. Done time, yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. For the blackmail ? 

(Mr. Licavoli shakes head affirmatively.) 

Mr. Halley. In all these arrests you were convicted once in 1925 
and fined $100 ; is that right? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And again you got a $4 fine for a traffic violation, 
and that is the only traffic violation on these. 

Mr. Licavoli, reading this Detroit record I see an arrest for robbery, 
another for robbery, another for robbery. 

Mr. Licavoli. I mean when they lock you up, they are liable to put 
anything on there. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested for kidnapping? 

Mr. Licavoli. They put on kidnapping. They put everything on 
when you get marked up over there. 

Mr. Halley. You have been arrested for murder, too? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. On more than one occasion, isn't that right ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. That's right, isn't it ? 

(Mr. Licavoli shakes head affirmatively.) 

Mr. Halley. And you have been arrested for violation of the cus- 
toms law ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were you sentenced to Leavenworth once for 1 to ,3 
months for violation of the prohibition law? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. Were you in the bootlegging racket? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Halley. In any event, you went to Leavenworth in 1929 for 
violating the prohibition law ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. How well do you know Al Polizzi ? 

Mr. Licavoli. How well do I know him? 

Mr. Halley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Licavoli. I just know him, that's all. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not there was a deal made 
whereby Thompson would be put in the building business with Man- 
gine and Polizzi as a reward for his going sponsor on your parole? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Thompson did go sponsor on your parole? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 353 

Mr. Licavoli. He did, but that ain't got nothing to do with Polizzi. 
Mr. Halley. You say you don't know whether or not Thompson 
was in business with Polizzi ? 
Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 
Mr. Halley. That is something we know. 
Mr. Licavoli. Well, I don't know. 
Mr. Halley. That is all. 

The Chairman. What did you do when you went to Toledo ? What 
did you do down in Toledo ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know what I did down there. I can't remem- 
ber. 

The Chairman. Sir? 

Mr. Licavoli. I can't remember what I did down there. 
The Chairman. You were there 3 years? 
Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir.. 

The Chairman. That is about when? When was that — well, you 
first were in St. Louis and you got in a good deal of trouble in St. 
Louis, didn't you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that. 
The Chairman. Sir? 
Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Well, you were arrested in St. Louis a number of 
times. Did you know a fellow named Eagen out there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. That is before my time. I was nothing but 
a kid then. 

The Chairman. And then from St. Louis you went to Detroit ? 
Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

The Chairman. When did you leave Detroit to go to Toledo ? 
Mr. Licavoli. About 1930 or 1931; I'm not sure. 
The Chairman. Then you stayed in Toledo until about 1934 ? 
Mr. Licavoli. 1933 or 1934 they brought me back to Detroit. 
The Chairman. Did vou have anything to do with any night clubs 
in Toledo ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you engage in any gambling activity in Toledo ? 
Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What did you do down there ? 
Mr. Licavoli. Nothing. 
The Chairman. Nothing? 
Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Just there? 
Mr. Licavoli. Just there. 
The Chairman. No business at all ? 
Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Then from Toledo you came to Cleveland ? 
Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long did you stay in Cleveland ? 
Mr. Licavoli. Well, I went back to Detroit. 

The Chairman. You went to Detroit. When did you come then to 
Cleveland? 
Mr. Licavoli. In 1938. 

The Chairman. And you have been here ever since ? 
Mr. Licavoli. Yes ; ever since. 



354 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Do you go to Florida sometimes? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Never have been down there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Hot Springs, went there about two or three times, 
Hot Springs. 

The Chairman. Where do you stay in Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Well, I stayed over at the Pullman Hotel once. 

The Chairman. Do you have an automobile, Mr. Licavoli? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What kind ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Pontiac. 

The Chairman. How many cars have you got? 

Mr. Licavoli. One. 

The Chairman. I am just interested, Mr. Licavoli — I don't know 
whether you want to talk about it or not — but you have had quite a 
record, and how do you get started on this ? How did you get started ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I can't tell you. 

The Chairman. I am just interested from the viewpoint of whether 
it was lack of opportunity as a kid, or whether you grew up in the 
wrong neighborhood, or didn't get a chance. 

Mr. Licavoli. That is something I can't answer. I can't tell you 
what happened. 

Maybe it is the name ; that's all. 

The Chairman. Well, I suppose 

Mr. Licavoli. It could be the name. They hear Licavoli, that's 
all; something happens, Licavoli. 

The Chairman. What I mean is, of course, you started out with a 
very good name at the time you started. 

Did you go to school when you were a kid ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How far along did you go ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I went to about the fourth grade. 

The Chairman. Read and write pretty well ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Fair. 

The Chairman. Then, after you got pushed out of the fourth 
grade, what did you start doing? 

Mr. Licavoli. Just nothing — went to work for a while for my 
father. 

The Chairman. What did he do? 

Mr. Licavoli. He had a fruit business. 

The Chairman. He had a fruit business? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. At the Union Market. 

The Chairman. How long did you work for him? 

Mr. Licavoli. I worked for him about 4 or 5 years. 

The Chairman. Then, did you meet some bad associates and get 
started in this game? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. I can't tell you what happened. I 
can't remember that far back. 

The Chairman. I really think it is a sort of sad situation. \ 

I think that these records have been referred to. They ought to be 
put in the record. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 355 

Mr. Halley. I would like them put in evidence, Mr. Chairman, I 

would like the following records put in evidence: First, the record 
relating to the parole of this witness on the sponsorship of Forest 
Thompson ; and, second, two sets of criminal records of this witness, 
and I ask that they be made exhibits not only to his testimony but 
also to the testimony of Al Polizzi. 

Mr. LaPolla. Objection for the record. 

The Chairman. They will be received and made part of the record. 

Anything else? 

(Records referred to are identified as exhibit No. 71, and are on 
file with the committee.) 

Mr. Nellis. You have a brother John ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Is that right ? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. He came from Detroit in 19-17 ; didn't he ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. He came to Ohio, and went to work at the Jungle Inn ; 
didn't he? 

Mr. Licavoli. I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. He went to work there as a bartender for the Farah 
Bros. ? 

Mr. Licavoli. That is something I don't know. 

Mr. Nellis. Weren't you instrumental in putting him in there? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You were a business partner with the Farahs ; weren't 
you ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I didn't say I was a business partner. 

Mr. Nellis. Were you? 

Mr. Licavoli. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. You were not? 

Mr. Licavoli. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Nellis. How long did he work there ? 

Mr. Licavoli. I can't tell you that. 

Mr. IS ellis. I have no other questions. 

The Chairman. I believe you were born in Sicily and you came 
over here as a kid ? 

Mr. Licavoli. No. I am an American citizen. 

The Chairman. You were born in this country? 

Mr. Licavoli. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What are you, about 19 years old? 

Mr. Licavoli. 16. 

The Chairman. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Licavoli. St. Louis in 1901. 

The Chairman. Mr. Licavoli, you will have to remain under sub- 
pena subject to further action of the committee. That is all. 

Mr. LaPolla. Thank you, Senator. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Mr. Senator, may I have 1 minute of your time, 
please? 

The Chairman. If you will state your name. 

Mr. Marmorstein. My name is Max Marmorstein. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. Do you want to make a statement ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Just one statement, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, sit down, sir. 



356 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Marmorstein. It will just take me 1 minute. I was subpenaed 
to appear here at 10 o'clock this morning. I flew in from Key West, 
Fla. 

The Chairman. If you are going to testify 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; I am not going to testify, sir. I wrote you a 
letter on December — November the 6 

The Chairman. The rule of our committee is that, if you give testi- 
mony or make some statement before the committee other than as 
a counsel, I will have to ask you to be sworn. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, unfortunately I am not a lawyer. 

The Chairman. Will you stand and be sworn ? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MAX MARMORSTEIN, CLEVELAND, OHIO 

The Chairman. This is Max Marmorstein [spelling] M-a-r-m-o-r- 
s-t-e-i-n, 502 Ninth-Chester Building, Cleveland. 

Real estate ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. That's right. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Marmorstein. On your hearing in Miami Beach sometime ago 
on page 56 of the official transcript, there was a Mr. Sullivan, I be- 
lieve, that testified 

The Chairman. Let's get the matter right. Daniel Sullivan, the 
operating director of the Greater Miami Crime Commission ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes. On page 56, Senator, he testified that — 

Max Marmorstein is a hotel operator from Cleveland, Ohio. He maintains 
his office in the Ninth-Chester Building of Cleveland, Ohio, and his telephones 
were taken out of the office in 1943 because they were connected with gambling 
operations. The building is the headquarters for Empire News. 

Senator, all I want — as I said, I only want to take 1 minute of 
your time. I want to put these records of mine in 3 7 our files, where 
my office was not in the Ninth-Chester Building in 1943 or 1944. 
That is Federal Housing Administration letters, bank letters. United 
States Treasury Department letters, and others verifying that my 
office was in the Guardian Building, and my telephones were never 
disconnected from any office that I ever had in the city of Cleveland. 

Mr. Halley. Did you own or have any connection with Ninth- 
Chester Building? 

Mr. Marmorstein. In 1943 ; no, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or at any time ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. After 1945 I did. 

Mr. Halley. What was your connection with it? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I bought the building. 

Mr. Halley. From whom did you buy it ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. From an estate, I believe. It was Acme Realty 
Co., some people connected with the Bailey Co. that owned it. 

Mr. Halley. What company ? 

Mr. Marmorstetn. The Bailey Co. 

Mr. Halley. Who with the Bailey Co. ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 357 

Mr. Marmorstein. Oh, Sunshine, I believe. And I don't remem- 
ber, two other fellows. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any transaction with those people prior 
to the purchase of that building ? Any business transaction ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. The people I bought it from ? No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you had any connections or business transactions 
relating to the building prior to your purchase? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; never did. 

Mr. Halley. No mortgages or loans of any kind ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; nothing. 

Mr. Halley. You made a loan to Tom McGinty ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Halley. Under what circumstances ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Oh, he asked me if I could loan him some money ; 
he wanted to go in some enterprise, and I said I would be glad to. 

Mr. Halley. When was this? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Oh, I think it was in the fall of 1949. 

Mr. Halley. Did he tell you what enterprise he wanted to go into? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, he told me he was figuring on building a 
hotel, or something, out West. 

Mr. Halley. Did he tell you what kind of hotel ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. He told me it was a hotel. 

Mr. Halley. Did he tell you where ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I believe he did. He told me it was in Las 
Vegas. 

Mr. Halley. And did he tell you with whom he was going to be 
associated ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; he did not. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ask him any questions ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you been in the real-estate business? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Oh, since 1914. 

Mr. Halley. Then you are familiar with hotel operation? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I am, sir. 

Mr. Halley. To your knoAvledge, has McGinty ever been in any 
hotel operations before ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. 

Mr. Halley. Now, when he came to you and asked you for money, 
did he ask you for a specific sum ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I believe he asked me if I could give him $25,000 
or $50,000. I told him that I couldn't spare $50,000, but I could loan 
him $25,000. 

Mr. Halley. And what did you give him? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I believe I gave him a check for it. 

Mr. Halley. I think he has testified you gave him $50,000. Is the 
correct sum $25,000? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, I did not. I only gave him $25,000. 

Mr. Halley. $25,000? 

Mr. Marmorstein. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. And at that time, did you know McGinty's background 
and occupation? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Oh, yes. I have known him for 25 years. 

Mr. Halley. Did you know he was in the gambling business? 



358 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr Marmorstein. I didn't know he was in the gambling business. 
I know him years ago, when he was in the fight-promoting business, 
and bicycle races, and so on. I had read in the newspapers that he had 
some gambling establishment he was connected with; but, outside of 
that, I don't know what. 

Mr. Halley. What collateral did you get from your $25,000? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I got a note from him. 

Mr. Halley. Well, a note isn't collateral, of course. 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; no collateral, just a note. 

Mr. Halley. You just loaned him $25,000 on his note ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. On his note ; that is right. 

Mr. Halley. And without any knowledge of the transaction he was 
going into. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Without any knowledge; that is right. 

Mr. Halley. Now, of course, you would know that he couldn't build 
a hotel for $25,000 ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. He asked me if I could give him more, but I 
said I couldn't. I couldn't spare it. 

Mr. Halley. So you had every reason to expect he was borrowing 
more from other people ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, that I couldn't state, but he did ; he needed 
more money. 

Mr. Halley. And did you make any effort to find out the total that 
he borrowed ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No; I did not. I had been sort of off work for 
the last 15 months ; I had been in and out of hospitals, and I never 
asked him anything. 

Mr. Halley. Well, of course, the time at which you would make 
the inquiry would be before you made the loan. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, I wouldn't inquire. If I had the money, 
I would loan Mr. McGinty $500,000 if I had the money. 

Mr. Halley. Have you been in the practice of lending large sums 
of money to people without collateral ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes. If I know a man, I don't ask for collateral. 

Mr. Halley. Could you name some other loans you have made of 
comparable size without collateral ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, I made some loans for my brother-in-law 
for $20,000, 1 remember, one time, without collateral. 

Mr. Halley. Well, let's leave your family out of it. You are not 
related to McGinty ; are you ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No; I am not related to him. 

Mr. Halley. I am not, either. 

And when did you ever lend any money to anybody you weren't 
related to, without collateral ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, I'll have to think. I did lend some money 
without collateral to other people, too, but 

Mr. Halley. Nothing like $25,000? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you just think about it. Who did you lend it 
to? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, I loaned — yes, I am glad you asked me. 
Now, I lent $25,000 to this world's fair that — it wasn't a world's fair; 
it was a fair that they promoted in Chicago about a year ago. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 359 

Mr. Halley. And that was McGinty again ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, no. You asked me who I loaned money to. 
Now, I am trying to — there is no McGinty in there. It was Sam 
Aranoff, the president of Albert Pick & Co.* came to me and asked if 
I would loan him $25,000 or $50,000 because they was up against it ; it 
was some fair. I don't recall the name. That was on in Chicago last 
summer, where the European — all the nations from Europe had an 
exhibit, and it was a Government-sponsored exhibit, but it was pro- 
moted by some Chicago fellows, business people. 

Mr. Aranoff asked me whether I would loan him $25,000 for 3 or 
6 months, with a good rate of interest. 

They had no collateral; all they had was a promise from these 
European nations that they are going to hold this fair in Chicago, at 
the Navy pier, 1 believe it was. 

So I didn't have quite $25,000, but I did loan them $10,000 with- 
out a note, without anything, and then about a week or two later, 
when they got up against it worse, I loaned them another $15,000, 
so it made it a total of $25,000. And they paid it back to me after 
the fair was either over or about the time fair was in process. 

Mr. Halley. Now, what did they tell you about the fair? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, all they told me, that they were short of 
money, and they knew that I had money, and they'd like to have me 
make them a loan. 

Mr. Halley. Now, who were the other people besides Aranoff? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, other people was all the business people 
in Chicago was back of it. 

Mr. Halley. Which business people? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, like Marshall Fields, like all the hotels, 
all the Hilton Hotels, like the Congress Hotel, who was owned by 
individuals, and the Morrison Hotel. All the hotels. 

Mr. Halley. In short, you had made some inquiries to find out 
what you were lending your money for? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Oh, yes; sure. 

Mr. Halley. Now, what inquiry did you make in this case where 
you loaned $25,000 to Mr. McGinty ? 

Mr. Halley. You didn't inquire anything? 

Mr. Halley. You didn't inquire anything? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. He asked me if I could loan him $25,000 
or $50,000, and I said, "Well, I can't loan you fifty, but I could spare 
twenty-five thousand." That is all. 

Mr. Halley. And you did that without inquiry ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, I didn't inquire; no. He told me what he 
wanted it for. 

Mr. Halley. He just said a hotel proposition? 

Mr. Marmorstein. He told me that he w r as going into a hotel deal 
in Las Vegas, and he was short of money. 

Mr. Halley. And you made no further inquiry? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. 

Mr. Halley. Had you loaned any other sums to McGinty? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. 

Mr. Halley. Have you ever invested any money in any hotels in 
Miami Beach? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Myself; yes, a lot of them. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what hotels ? 



360 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, back in 1936 or 1937, 1 invested some money 
in the Wofford Hotel — no, not the Wofford, pardon me. That was 

The Chairman. The Raleigh % 

Mr. Halley. The Sands ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, the first hotel was the Fleetwood Hotel. 
That was my first one. That was the first hotel I invested in. 

Then about — oh, that was a lease ; it wasn't a purchase. We took 
a 10-year lease on it. 

Mr. Halley. What other hotels? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I had interests in ? 

Mr. Halley. That you invested in \ 

Mr. Marmorstein. I only invested in that hotel. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever invest in the Wofford Hotel ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. 

Mr. Halley. Or lend any money to anybody ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. I represented some people that owned the 
Wofford Hotel. 

Mr. Halley. Who did you represent ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Johnny King. 

Mr. Halley. Johnny King ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. In what connection did you represent Johnny King ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, I had a contract here with him. Would 
you like to have me submit the contract ? 

Mr. Halley. You can submit it or tell the committee. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, I could refresh my memory a little what 
day it was, because I have a contract with him. 

Mr. Halley. Are you an attorney ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, I am not. I am a real-estate businessman. 

Mr. Halley. In what capacity did you represent King ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I represented King — he had a 10-year lease with 
a fellow by the name of Tom Cassera, on the Wofford Hotel, and in 
the meantime they started to build another hotel called the Raleigh 
Hotel. 

Mr. Halley. Did you represent him in the Raleigh deal, too? 

Mr. Marmorstein. That is right. So they got into some trouble 
financially. 

Mr. Halley. Well, their credit wasn't much good because of their 
reputation ; isn't that a fact ?' 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, at that time I had never met Cassera be- 
fore. I knew nothing about it. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you knew about King, didn't you ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I knew about King. 

Mr. Halley. And you knew he had a bad reputation ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, I won't say I knew he had a bad reputa- 
tion. I knew him around town when he was a young fellow. He 
didn't have a bad reputation then. 

Mr. Halley. At what age ? Five or six ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; when he was about 20 or 22. 

Mr. Halley. Well, he was beginning to get a bad reputation pretty 
fast at that time, wasn't he ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Wei], he done pretty well since. 

Mr. Halley. You mean in illegal activities? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Evidently so, from the papers that I read. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 361 

Mr. Halley. That is right. Well, would you like to say anything 
else about your association with King and Cassera? 

Mr. Marmorstein. All I can say about the association in the Wof- 
ford and Raleigh, I have represented them. Mr. King later involved 
Mr. Massey and involved Mr. Chuck Polizzi, and I represented him on 
a fee basis, where they were paying me a certain fee, whatever work 
I done for them. I had a contract with Mr. King about that, which 
is in writing, which I will be glad to submit to you and you can put 
it in the record. 

Mr. Halley. Well, now, who did you represent ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. King. Johnny King. 

Mr. Halley. Johnny King and Joe Massey ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, Joe Massey came into the picture later. 

Mr. Halley. Well, at this time did you represent Massey ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Just Johnny King. 

Mr. Halley. Later on, when Massey came in, did you represent 
him? 

Mr. Marmorstein. All I represented Massey for was when Johnny 
King wanted to buy out the other interest in the Raleigh. He had 
to have some money, and he brought into the picture Joe Massey and 
Chuck Polizzi. 

Mr. Halley. Chuck Polizzi and Joe Massey put money into the 
Raleigh? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Into the Raleigh. 

Mr. Halley. With Johnny King? 

Mr. Marmorstein. For Johnny King. For him to be able to buy it 
with four or five of his partners. 

Mr. Halley. And you represented him in that transaction? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes, sir : I also represented companies like the 
Albert Pick & Co., who are in the hotel business for the last 30 years, 
on a retaining basis, the same as I do them. 

I also represented such a bank as the Continental Trust Co. in 
Chicago, when they had some trouble with the Blackstone Hotel. 

I also represented banks like the Manufacturing Trust Co., and the 
Solodad Hotel enterprises, when they financed Albert Pick & Co., and 
I have experience in representing different banks all over the United 
States and Canada for the last 25, 30 years, as adviser and as a trouble- 
shooter for them. 

Mr. Halley. Do you operate the Casa Marina Hotel ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I do ; yes. I bought it. 

Mr. Halley. Do you own it ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I own it. 

Mr. Halley. Are you the sole owner; are there any other owners? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No other owners. 

Mr. Halley. Are there any other persons who have undisclosed 
interests in the Casa Marina ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, sir ; nobody but me. 

Mr. Halley. You purchased it from the United States after the 
war? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; I purchased it from Mrs. Barnes, from 
Chicago. She owned it. ♦ 

Mr. Halley. Well, the Navy had it, I believe, during the war. The 
Navy? 



362 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Marmorstein. The Navy sold it to a fellow in Miami, a fellow 
by the name of Sam Kay. 

Mr. Hallet. Sam Kay ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes, and he sold it to this Mrs. Barnes, a widow 
lady from Chicago, and then I bought it from Mrs. Barnes about 
September this last year. 

Mr. Halley. Do you know Sam Kay ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, I have met him; yes. 

Mr. Halley. How long have you known Sam Kay ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I only met him on one deal. I represent Albert 
Pick & Co., and they furnished the furnishings in the Copa City, the 
kitchen equipment for the Copa City in 1948 or around there. 

Mr. Halley. The Copa City is a very large night club in Miami 
Beach ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. And they didn't pay their bill, so last April 
of 1950 I had a call from Mr. Aranoff, the president of Pick & Co., 
and asked me to go down there and straighten out this account. I 
couldn't straighten it out, but I was referred to Sam Kay, that he 
had some interest in the Copa City on straightening out this amount 
due us, about $44,000 or $48,000. 

When I got to Sam Kay's office, he just gave me a lot of promises, 
and his brother-in-law gave us a bum check we couldn't cash for $2,000, 
so I got mad and I told him I am going to pull my equpiment out of 
there, and I did, and pulled everything out of there and shipped it 
back to Chicago. 

That was my only dealing with Sam Kay. 

Mr. Halley. He is a rather large real-estate operator in Miami. 

Mr. Marmorstein. He is the largest one down there, so they tell me. 

Mr. Halley. How long did he have the Casa Marina ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Two years. 

Mr. Halley. And how long did the lady in Chicago have it ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Also 2 years. 

Mr. Halley. And then 3^011 purchased it ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any interest in it prior to purchas- 
ing it ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, never been in Key West until I took sick 
last fall or a year ago. 

Mr. Halley. And I take it Mr. Aranoff is president of Pick & Co. ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Albert Pick & Co. 

Mr. Halley. You have done business with them for many years ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Twenty, thirty years. 

Mr. Halley. So that when you loaned first $10,000, then $15,000 to 
Mr. Aranoff in connection with the Chicago fair, you were lending it 
to somebody you knew pretty well ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I didn't loan it to Aranoff; I loaned it to the 
company. 

Mr. Halley. But he came to you for the loan. 

Mr. Marmorstein. He asked me for the loan. 

Mr. Halley. He was your valued customer and client. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, he wasn't my customer. I am his 
customer; he is my boss. He pays me a retainer every month for 
representing him. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 363 

Mr. Halley. So you might distinguish a case in which you loaned 
youi- boss $25,000 from a case in which you loaned it to a man who I 
think you have testified you know as a gambler. 

Mr. M armorsteix. I didn't say he was a gambler. 

Mr. I [alley. Don't you know that ? 

Mr. Marmornteix. I don't know. I have heard some rumors that 
he had an interest here in Cleveland in the Mounds Club. Every- 
body knows that. But whether he had any other interests, I couldn't 
tell.' 

Mr. Halley. Well, isn't the Mounds Club enough to make a man 
a gambler? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I wouldn't say so, no. 

Mr. Halley. Were you ever in it? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I was in it. 

Mr. Halley. It had a crap game ? 

Mr. Marmorsteix. I never shoot crap. 

Mr. Halley. You never shoot crap '. 

Mr. Marmorsteix. No. 

Mr. Halley. Didn't it have gambling? 

Mr. Marmorsteix. I walked in their dining room a few times, had 
dinner, saw Joe Louis, and Sophie Tucker, and walked out. 

Mr. Halley. You never went into the gambling part? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Only gambling I ever do is on horses. 

Mr. Halley. But the question isn't whether you ever gamble ; didn't 
you ever go into the gambling part of the Mounds Club? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. 

Mr. Halley. But everybody in Cleveland knew there was gam- 
bling there ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes; they knew it. 

Mr. Halley. And you knew that McGinty had an interest in it? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I did. 

Mr. Halley. That is all. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Marmorstein, you have testified concerning the 
reputation of Mr. King and the Wofford Hotel. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And you were there with Mr. Abe Allenberg; is that 
right? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes ; I was there with him. 

Mr. Nellis. You had a co-extensive interest in the management. 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; I had no interest. 

Mr. Nellis. In the management. I don't mean financial. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, in the management. I turned over all my 
files to your 

Mr. Nellis. Well, I am just asking 3-011. 

Mr. Marmorstein. No; I had no interest in the management. 

Mr. Nellis. Was your name 

Mr. Marmorstein. Mr. Allenberg bought half interest in the lease 
in the Wofford from Mr. King, and Mr. Cassera, and then he became 
the manager of the Wofford Hotel, and he run the hotel and oper- 
ated it. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, do you know whether your name appeared in 
conjunction with Mr. Allenberg's name on wage returns, withholding 
receipts, and so on? 

68958— 51— pt. 6 24 



364 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Marmorstein. It did ; yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you have an interest in who was employed in the 
WofTord Hotel ? Did you care about that ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes-; I had an interest when I first started to 
represent Mr. King. I have hired one of the largest auditing firms 
in the hotel auditing, Horwood & Horwood, and I installed them 
as the representative of both Mr. King and Cassaro, and they super- 
vised the hiring of cashiers and 

Mr. Nellis. And your instructions to them were that they were 
to make this a respectable, high-grade operation; is that right \ 

Mr. Marmorstein. As far as I know, that is what it was. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Romeo Civetta % 

Mr. Marmorstein. Never heard of him. 

Mr. Nellis. He is a brother of Anthony Civetta, from Cleveland. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Never heard the name even. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. McBride's 

Mr. Marmorstein. Never heard of him. 

Mr. Nellis. He worked for the Wofford Hotel, did you know ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I didn't know that. I could show you all the 
list of people who worked there, if you 

Mr. Nellis. Well, the committee has records that he did. 

I have no other questions. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Now, you have furnished us things here to prove that you were not 
in a certain building. 

Mr. Marmorstein. That is right. 

The Chairman. The name of the building is Chester-Ninth. 

Mr. Sullivan said : 

Max Marmorstein, hotel operator, from Cleveland, Ohio, he maintains his office 
in the Ninth and Chester Building in Cleveland, Ohio, and his telephones were 
taken out of that office, 1943, because they were connected with gambling opera- 
tions. That building is the headquarters of the Empire News Service, controlled 
by Mushy Wexler. 

Now, you proved you were in the Mormon Building ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. The what? 

The Chairman. What building were you in? 

Mr. Marmorstein. The Guardian Building. 

The Chairman. And you didn't move into the building referred to 
by Mr. Sullivan until 1945. 

Mr. Marmorstein. That is right. 

The Chairman. You weren't there at the time he talked about. 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. I think that your records show that. 
We will take your word for it. 

I might say, for the benefit of the record and Mr. Marmorstein, that 
he wrote the committee a letter on November 6, explaining the same 
thing, and Mr. Klein, associate counsel for the committee wrote back, 
.and Mr. Marmorstein asked that the letter be made a part of the 
record, and Mr. Klein wrote back that we were glad to have the ex- 
planation, and when the record is printed his letter would appear 
in full as part of the proceedings. 

You got that letter ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I got that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 365 

The Chairman. And it is in the record. I think you should know, 
it is in the Florida record that this letter and reply is printed. 

Mr. Makmorstein. Well, I would like to have it in this record of 
(his hearing, Senator, because 1 am living here, and I have lived here 
for almost 40 years, and some of our newspapers are getting this entire 
set-up, and my connection with this thing-, entirely untrue statements. 

Now, what I'd like to do, if I may, I have 

The Chairman. "Well, your letter will be made a part of the record 
here in Cleveland. 

(Letter referred to is identified as exhibit No. 72, and appears in 
the appendix on p. 466.) 

Do you have anything else you want to tell us? 

Mr. Marmorstein. All 1 want to say is this, that my files are all 
upstairs, whatever they are in connection with the Wofford deal, with 
the Raleigh deal, with any other deals that are involved and as I said in 
my letter to you on November 6, if at any other time you care to have 
me, I will be glad to appear, and I thank you for the privilege of ap- 
pearing here. 

I would like to get back to Key West. I have got a nice hotel there. 
I will leave you a folder of it. [Laughter.] 

If it is good enough for our President, it ought to be good enough 
for us. 

The Chairman. Now we have somewhere we can stay in Chicago, 
and when we go down to Key West 

Mr. Halley. I would vouch for the Casa Marina. It is one of the 
most beautiful buildings in the country. 

The Chairman. You own all of that ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I own all of that, Senator, and I have no 
partners. 

The Chairman. I was interested in knowing this : How much in- 
terest did you charge Mr. McGinty '. 

Mr. Marmorstein. I charged him interest, Senator. 

The Chairman. Big interest \ 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, no. But I did charge him interest. I did 
•charge a big interest to that Aranoff loan. 

The Chairman. Why did you charge them bigger interest? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, because that was a loan that maybe I 
wouldn't get back. You know, in a promotion it is a peculiar thing, 
Senator. I don't know if you know these fair promotions, but I did 
charge interest. 

The Chairman. Anyway, you have known Mr. McGinty, and felt 
he was going to pay you back, and you didn't know about these others ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; that I wasn't so sure of. 

The Chairman. Of course, this hotel thing, your name appeared 
■with Mr. Allenberg's on all the records and receipts. 

Mr. Marmorstein. And I explained 

The Chairman. And Mr. Allenberg and Mr. Sullivan had some- 
thing to say that this hotel was connected with Erickson. The fact 
is, as you probably know, Allenberg came to Florida under the spon- 
sorship of Erickson, and Erickson put up the money for him to buy 
interest in the Wofford Hotel. You knew that, didn't you? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Senator, I did not know it. I never heard of 
that. 



366 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, you found it out? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I did. I found this out, that since the news- 
papers — I found out since the newspapers. I never met Allenberg 
until 1941, sometime in the fall, and I only met him in Mr. King's 
attorney's office when the assignment was made to him for half of the 
deal. I never made the deal 

The Chairman. Well, anyway, you didn't know that Allenberg was 
fronting for Erickson when you went with him ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. 

The Chairman. But you found out he was. 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. I tell you what I did find out, that Allen- 
berg was working for Erickson. 

The Chairman. Well, that is fronting, so it is the same thing. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes, he was working, but not in the hotel. 

The Chairman. Now, I am intersted to know also, John King not 
only had an interest in the Wofford, he also had an interest in the 
Sands Hotel, along with Al Polizzi. 

Mr. Marmorstein. He didn't have it when I represented him. 

The Chairman. Did you do anything for the Sands ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Only one more thing I would like you, Senator. 
I have an accounting when I turned over this matter to the auditors, 
for Mr. King's auditor. I would like to leave that for the record until 
you examine it or somebody examines it, what my settlement was. 

In other words, I would like to prove to this committee once and 
for all when I started representing King and who I represented there, 
and when I finished representing him, which is a matter of record from 
these different auditors. He had his own auditor. 

Mr. Halley. Why don't you submit a written statement, and it will 
go into the record. 

Mr. Marmorstein. I have got it here. I will give it to you. 

Mr. Chairman. Whatever you want us to, we will examine. 

Mr. Halley. We think we know the facts. 

Tell me, were you shocked when you found out that Allenberg was 
representing Erickson? 

Mr. Marmonstein. No ; I wasn't shocked. 

Mr. Halley. You didn't object to associating with Allenberg? 

Mr. Marmonstein. No sir. Now, this is my agreement 

The Chairman. What was your answer ? 

You said you didn't object to associating with him? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I had nothing to do with Allenberg, about his 
running the hotel. I just simply was advising. 

Mr. Halley. Did Allenberg object when he found out he was in 
partnership with King? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. He made the deal with King. I didn't 
make the deal with Allenberg ; he made the deal with Johnny King. 

Mr. Halley. Of course, Allenberg has testified that when he made 
the deal he didn't know King's reputation, and when he found out he 
got out of the Wofford. 

Mr. Marmorstein. That is not quite true. He operated the Wofford 
for quite a long time with Johnny King, not with me, but with 
Johnny King — my records that are upstairs will show that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 367 

The Chairman. All right. You leave all this here, and we will go 
over it. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Now, here is the final essence of this whole thing. 
Here is my accounting for Johnny King and here is his auditors, here 
is a letter from the auditor and my letter to the auditor, and attorneys 
representing Johnny. That finished the whole thing. 

The Chairman. All right, then. Fine. We will take this over and 
study it, and it will be made an exhibit. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as exhibit 
No. 73, and was returned to witness after analysis by the committee.) 

Mr. Marmorstein. Senator, can I go back to Key West now ? Or 
shall I still — — 

The Chairman. Have you got another one of those folders ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes; I have. [Laughter.] 

I brought this up to give you a folder. 

Mr. Halley. When I saw it, it was under the Navy management. 

Mr. Marmorstein. Well, it is much prettier now, sir. Since then, 
Mrs. Barnes remodeled. 

Mr. Nellis. May I ask one question ? A fast one. 

Do you know Forrest Thompson ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No. 

Mr. Nellis. Never heard of him? 

Mr. Marmorstein. I heard of him; yes. He was connected one 
time, I believe, with a construction company in Cleveland. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes; in the real-estate business. But you never met 
him ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. Yes ; I think I did. 

Mr. Nellis. When was that? 

Mr. Marmorstein. In Cleveland, maybe 15, 20 years ago. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you had any 

Mr. Marmorstein. Dealings with him? 

Mr. Nellis. Any business dealings ? 

Mr. Marmorstein. No ; I haven't seen the man for 10, 20 years. 

The Chairman. All right. Thank you; we appreciate very much 
your coming in. 

Now the committee will be recessed until 2 : 30. 

(Whereupon, at 1 : 15 p. m., a recess was had until 2:30 p. m., the 
same day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. McConnell Coakwell, the operating director of the Cleveland 
Crime Commission, has been with us during most of the hearings. 
We would be very glad if Mr. Coakwell would come up and sit with 
the committee. I don't know if he is here right now. 

Mr. Rhoads, will you come around ? 

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee 
will be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you. God ? 

Mr. Rhoads. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, gentlemen. Alvin Coakwell, city man- 
ager of Newport, Ky. — is that correct, Malcolm Rhoads ? 

Mr. Rhoads. That's right. 



368 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. I got you mixed up with Mr. Coakwell of the 
Cleveland Crime Commission. All right, Mr. Nellis. 

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM REET RHOADS. CITY MANAGER, 
NEWPORT, KY. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Ehoads, will you please state your full name and 
address for the record ? 

Mr. Ehoads. It is Malcolm Eeet Ehoads. 

Mr. Nellis. You are city manager of Newport, Ky., sir? 

Mr. Ehoads. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. When did you become city manager ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Last year, January the 2d. 

Mr. Nellis. You were appointed to that position; isn't that right? 

Mr. Ehoads. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. By the city commissioners ? 

Mr. Ehoads. That's right, 

Mr. Nellis. When were they elected? About that same time? 

Mr. Ehoads. They were elected in November, prior to that. 

Mr. Nellis. What platform were they elected on, generally ? 

Mr. Ehoads. They were elected on a platform of eliminating com- 
mercialized gambling as far as possible. 

Mr. Nellis. And their instructions to you, as I understand it, sir, 
were that you were to see to it that everything was done to eliminate 
organized gambling ? 

Mr. Ehoads. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. You know, Mr. Rhoads, the committee has heard a 
great deal of information concerning the enormous and plush casinos 
that are running in that area. 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes. I would like to make this statement. I have 
observed that there has been some confusion regarding Beverly Hills. 
Beverly Hills is not in Newport; it is in a town adjacent to Newport, 
in South Gate, and, of course, we have no jurisdiction over Beverlv 
Hills. 

Mr. Nellis. I understand, but you have some clubs in your city; 
do you not ? 

Mr. Ehoads. That is correct. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you prefer to tell the committee in your own 
words what you have done in connection with the clean-up campaign I 

Mr. Ehoads. I will be glad to. 

Mr. Nellis. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. Let's see. First, what are the clubs in Newport? 

Mr. Ehoads. Senator, we have so many there, it would be im- 
possible to enumerate all of them. There are 126 saloons, 43 night 
clubs, and a good many groceries possibly that have licenses. 

The Chairman. What are the ones that we have been hearing testi- 
mony about ? 

Mr. Ehoads. I am not sure which ones you have had testimony on. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have the Yorkshire Club ? 

Mr. Ehoads. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And the Merchants Club ? 

Mr. Rhoads. That's right, 

Mr. Nellis. Could you tell us about those, sir? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN' INTERSTATE COMMERCE 369 

Mr. Rhoads. Well, they are reputed to be gambling casinos. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you done anything to close them up? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes; we have. 

Mr. Nellis. Will you tell us what? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes. As I said before, this group that went into 
office was a group of businessmen who were elected on a platform to 
eliminate commercialized gambling and, of course, to make other 
improvements, civic improvements as well. 

I was never a city manager before and was never interested in be- 
coming city manager. I was a country school teacher for about 15 
years and practiced law for 4 years after that. And they came 
to me and asked me if I would assume that responsibility and told me 
very definitely what their platform was. In fact, I asked them be- 
cause I was as much interested in knowing what their attitude toward 
that situation was as they were to know about mine; and it was con- 
cluded that we would eliminate gambling as far as possible and we 
then — I think it was on May the 4th that the final back-breaking decree 
was issued and it was since that time ■ 

Mr. Nellis. Against whom ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Against all of them. 

Mr. Nellis. All of the clubs ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes. I would like to make this clear; that we never 
at any time tried to make any distinction between commercialized and 
syndicated gambling and home-grown gamblers. To us, gamblers 
were gamblers. 

Mr. Nellis. You have both? 

Mr. Rhoads. And that was the ones we wanted to eliminate. 

Mr. Nellis. You had both in Newport ; did you not ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes ; that's the general information. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. And the Flamingo Club was in Newport ? 

Mr. Rhoads. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. That was operated by Mike and Louis Levinson ? 

Mr. Rhoads. I have heard those names mentioned in connection 
with it. 

Mr. Nellis. That club was closed also along with the other two I 
have mentioned ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. You have confidence in your police department. Mr. 
Rhoads? 

Mr. Rhoads. Well, of course, gambling had gone on there for 
some 50 years, I suppose, or longer, and I don't — I can't conceive of 
big-time commercialized gambling going on without the knowledge 
and possibly the cooperation of the police department. 

Mr. Nellis. You have heard testimony, I presume, if you were in 
the courtroom yesterday, concerning the operations in which a cer- 
tain number of Clevelanders got into operations in the Yorkshire 
Club; is that right? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. And the committee understands* of course, that that 
was a large operation. You have had your trouble, though, with local 
places ; have you not ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Well, we have had our troubles with all of them. 

Mr. Nellis. Have the laws been enforced against all of them pretty 
equally? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes. 



370 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Nellis. So far as you know ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes; so far as I know, there has been no distinction 
made between the local and the syndicated groups. Frankly, I had 
no knowledge of who the syndicated groups were. I care less, for 
that matter, because our interest was to eliminate them. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes, sir. Now, you testified that you didn't think 
gambling could go on without the knowledge of some of the law- 
enforcement officials; is that right? 

Mr. Rhoads. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you begin ouster proceedings against the chief of 
police? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes. On the 14th of December. 

Mr. Nellis. What year ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Of 1950. We instituted ouster proceedings against 
the chief of police. 

Mr. Nellis. On what grounds ? 

Mr. Rhoads. On the grounds that he failed to carry out the orders 
completely that we had issued relative to elimination of gambling. 

Mr. Nellis. And other grounds as well ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes, insubordination. 

Mr. Nellis. Insubordination in connection with your directions to 
him? 

Mr. Rhoads. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. What is the status of those proceedings, Mr. Rhoads ? 

Mr. Rhoads. Those have been heard before the city commissioners, 
and Mr. Gugel was given a 28-day suspension. 

Mr. Nellis. For the record, Mr. Gugel is whom ? Can you identify 
him more fully ? 

Mr. Rhoads. The chief of police. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. George Gugel ? 

Mr. Rhoads. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. He is the present chief of police ? 

Mr. Rhoads. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Is he under suspension at the present time? 

Mr. Rhoads. No; his suspension became effective as of the 14th — 
13th, I believe, it was, of December, and it was to run 28 days from 
that. So it would have — his suspension has ended as of now. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Rhoads, wasn't there something recently about a 
hearing on January 18 concerning Mr. Gugel? Was that an appeal 
that he is making from that suspension order? 

Mr. Rhoads. No; I think that was the date that the suspension 
terminated. 

Mr. Nellis. Oh, it terminated on that date? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes; at that time. 

Mr. Nellis. I see, sir. Is it your opinion that the organized and 
unorganized — by that, I mean the syndicated and the local gambling — 
has pretty well been wiped out? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes ; I think it definitely. 

Mr. Nellis. Out of your environs ? 

Mr. Rhoads. I think it is practically eliminated. Now, if tliere 
is any at all, it is behind closed doors and so secretive that it is pretty 
hard to get to it. We have observed very definitely a decrease in our 
police court records. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 371 

Mr. Nellis. Is Chief Gugel enforcing the laws now, to your knowl- 
edge ? 

Mr. Rhoads. To my knowledge, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. xVre you satisfied with his enforcement of the laws? 

Mr. Rhoads. I am satisfied if they are being enforced; and, as far 
as I know, they are, and 1 will be satisfied so long as they are en- 
forced. 

Mr. Nellis. And you arc satisfied to keep him in office so long as 
he does enforce the law ? 

Mr. Rhoads. So long as he enforces the law, I am not concerned 
about who is chief of police. 

Mr. Nellis. Hasn't Newport been known as a pretty wide-open 
place for a long time? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes; it has been. It has been known as a liberal com- 
munity, and that is using the word "liberal" very loosely. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you explain that to the chairman, please? 
"Liberal community," what does that mean? 

Mr. Rhoads. In Newport, to some people "liberal" means license 
to operate illegal activities, and I certainly don't put that interpreta- 
tion upon being liberal. I classify myself as being liberal, but not 
to that point. 

Mr. Nellis. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley ? 

Mr. Halley. No questions. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Rhoads, you got the backing of the 
people to do something about this down there; didn't you? 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes; I think we have, and I think. Senator, that it 
is one of the best examples of what an aroused citizenry can do to 
eliminate a blight on a community that has been there a long time 
when they are probably informed and when they have officials who are 
fearless and are willing to do their duty. 

The Chairman. Well, sometimes the argument around in the com- 
munity — and I am sure you have heard it down in Newport — is that 
all of the citizens want this, and that these people contribute to charity, 
and so forth, and so on. 

What do you think of that? 

Mr. Rhoads. I think that is a bill of goods that has been sold that 
can't be delivered. Our experience has been that instead of it being 
an economic necessity as some well-meaning people thought, it was 
that they have definitely proved themselves to be a liability. 

When we went into office we were told that we would not be able to 
operate the city on the budget without the special taxes that were 
assessed which applied generally to the clubs. Those taxes were 
eliminated. We operated our city in the black, and I think we'can 
continue to do so. A lot of those businessmen who thought honestly 
that much of the economy of the community depended upon com- 
mercialized gambling have changed their minds completely. They tell 
us that now children are drinking milk that didn't drink milk before, 
they are buying more groceries; business generally has improved in- 
stead of declined since this has taken place. 

The Chairman. Merchants are doing better and the farmers are 
doing better, and the morale of the community is improved? 

Mr. Rhoads. The general morale of the community has greatly 
improved. We have noticed that in some months the entire month's 



372 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

criminal record shows less arrests than formerly there would be on 
a Monday morning. 

The Chairman. How about juvenile delinquency? 

Mr. Rhoads. There has been definitely a decline in juvenile de- 
linquency. 

The Chairman. So that your opinion is that no matter how deep 
the roots of gambling and crime may be in the economic and political 
life of a section, in the first place, the big percentage, 98 percent of the 
people, want to eliminate it, and in the second place it is a very healthy 
thing for the community to get rid of it? 

Mr. Rhoads. I certainly think that is true. 

The Chairman. I agree with you fully. 

I might say in that connection that we had some information when 
we were at Las Vegas that there was a magnesium plant a little way 
out of Las Vegas. Of course, we are not going into whether it is a 
good thing or not in Las Vegas, but the information was that these 
workers were paid more than they were almost anywhere else in the 
United States at this plant. However, they come into town, and 
families lost their money. The magnesium plant was moved some- 
where else, and many of the workers didn't have enough money to 
move the three or four hundred miles. They didn't have money to 
move their furniture, their clothes, and so on, to go three or four 
hundred miles where the plant was relocated. 

So this does take the financial means and the subsistence away 
from the poor people and the middle class who can ill afford it. 

Is that your experience? 

Mr. Rhoads. That is my opinion, Senator. We had an experience 
in our community that backs that up. I am a member of the State 
industrial committee of the State chamber of commerce, and we have 
made a special effort to secure industries in our community, and one 
of the things that was told to me early when contacting them was 
that the reason why industries did not come in during the last war 
is the fact that the conditions there were not conducive to right 
living for those they expected to work for them. 

Since that time, since the first of last year, since this edict has been 
enforced, we have had overtures from industries. Our community has 
organized an industrial development committee. They are now 
making surveys, and I feel sure that the community is going to many, 
many times offset any economic value that might be attached to com- 
mercial gambling. 

The Chairman. Mr. Rhoads, were you there as city manager when 
some members of your police department were fired in connection with 
an operation growing out of dealings with some people from Miami, 
and it was alleged that they were framed ? 

Mr. Rhoads. No. 

The Chairman. Dc you know anything about that? 

Mr. Rhoads. No. No police have been fired since I have been in 
office. 

The Chairman. You came in January 1050? 

Mr. Rhoads. January 2, 1950 ; that's right. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Rhoads. We wish you well, and 
we commend your spirit in what you are attempting to do, and I think 
you are going to be successful if you keep on with the determination 
that you have. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 373 

Mr. Riioads. As lone; as I am city manager this edict is going to 
stay in force. 

The Chairman. Thank you, sir. 

Let us get Mr. Gugel in. 

Mr. Gugel, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this 
committee will be* the whole truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Gugel. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE GUGEL, CHIEF OF POLICE, NEWPORT, KY., 
ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES E. LESTER, ATTORNEY 

The Chairman, All right, Mr. Nellis. 

Mr. Nellis. State your name. 

Mr. Gugel. George Gugel. 

Mr. Nellis. And what is your official connection in the city of 
Newport ? 

Mr. Gugel. Chief of police. 

Mr. Nellis. How long have you been chief of police there? 

Mr. Gugel. Five years. 

Mr. Nellis. You have heard the testimony concerning conditions 
in Newport, Mr. Gugel? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you hear Mr. Rhoads testifying concerning the 
proceedings he brought against you in connection with lack of law 
enforcement? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Are you satisfied that those conditions have been eradi- 
cated ? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Is the Yorkshire open, Mr. Gugel? 

Mr. Gugel. To my knowledge; no. 

Mr. Nellis. The committee had some very definite information, 
Mr. Chairman, that the Yorkshire Club was opened just recently, 
just a few days ago. 

Have you any idea on that, Mr. Gugel? 

Mr. Gugel. My idea on that, sir, is my men checked three or four 
times a day, and they give me a written report on it, and that is 

Mr. Nellis. What do they find? 

Mr. Gugel. Nothing. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any of those records with you ? 

Mr. Gugel. I don't think I have any of those reports with me, not 
here ; no. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any within the last week or 10 days ? 

Mr. Gugel. Not with me. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any of them in your office? 

Mr. Gugel. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you see that they are made available to the 
chairman either today through Mr. McCormick, or by mail, some 
expedient way ? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you have them up here? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. I have them at home, at the office. I have a 
daily report from — in other words, there are three lieutenants, 8-hour 



374 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

shift, and every 8 hours they make out their report and turn it in to 
me. 

Mr. Nellis. What do their reports consist of, visited X club, found 
no gambling ? 

Mr. Gugel. Visited 518 York Street, known as the Yorkshire, and 
found nothing; visited the Merchants, and the same. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you know Mr. Masterson ? 

Mr. GucxEL. Sir? 

Mr. Nellis. Masterson? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. How well do you know him ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, I suppose I know Red Masterson 25 years. 

Mr. Nellis. What is his occupation, Mr. Gugel ? 

Mr. Gugel. Eight now he is — he is at the Latin quarters. That is 
outside of Newport. I don't know what he is doing up there. 

Mr. Nellis. Was he in your city at one time ? 

Mr. Gugel. He was at the Merchants; yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. At the Merchants' Club, isn't that right? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. He was the manager or the proprietor there, in a sense, 
was he not? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, sir ; all we go on is the man whose name the license 
was in, and t'he license was in Johnny Cassera's name. That is the 
license to operate a restaurant and a bar. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Gugel, you were ousted or suspended, were you not, 
for not enforcing the gambling laws ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, that was the charge, but it was dropped against 
me about that, and the only thing that I was suspended on was in- 
subordination. 

Mr. Nellis. Was that in connection with Mr. Rhoads? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you and Mr. Khoads patched up your difficulties ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, I suppose we did, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. And you are going ahead with a strong enforcement, 
is that right ? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. To your knowledge, there is no gambling going on at 
all? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right, 

Mr. Nellis. None ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, like Mr. Rhoads says, there may be cheating some 
place, and like that; that could be possible. 

Mr. Nellis. Is there any gambling going on — I know it is not 
within your jurisdiction — is there any gambling going on just outside 
of Newport in these big clubs the committee has heard about ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, the Beverly Hills is in Southgate and the Wilders 
is where the Latin Quarters is, and then I think there is another place 
up in Belleview, some kind of club up there. 

Mr. Nellis. Have you ever gone in any of these clubs ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Never? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Mr. Gugel, just briefly can you give us an idea of what 
property you own ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 375 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, sir. I own two pieces of property, my own home 
where I am living in now 

Mr. Nellis. When did you acquire that, sir? 

Mr. Gugel. In 1942. 

Mr. Nellis. What was the acquisition cost? 

Mr. Gugel. Seven thousand dollars. And then I have our old 
home— my parents died about in 11)33 or 1934, and during settling 
the estate and that from different times I paid off my brothers and 
sisters, and I have that piece of property. 

Mr. Nellis. What would you estimate the worth of that to be? 

Mr. Gugel. The two of them ? Oh. that one here? 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. 

Mr. Gugel. That stood me around $6,500 at the time, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you own an automobile ? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. What kind? 

Mr. Gugel. It is a 1939 Dodge. 

Mr. Nellis. Do you have any sources of income other than your 
salary as chief of police ? 

Mr. Gugel. Not other than that property that I rent, my former 
home. 

Mr. Nellis. And no other sources of income ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Nellis. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Mr. Halley. 

Mr. Halley. Is it your position that if you believe the city adminis- 
tration wants you to enforce the law, you enforce it, but if you believe 
they don't want you to enforce it, then you don't ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, I don't know how to answer that. In other words, 
1 would say that the administration that was in before this, like Mr. 
Rhoads says, was liberal, but then these people came along, and in 
the 2d of January I had a meeting with them and they told me they 
would let me know what to do. In other words, Mr. Rhoads is my 
boss, and he is appointed by the city commission and the mayor. 

Mr. Halley. Well, what is your conception of the function of the 
chief of police ? Is it to enforce the law, or to do what the politicians 
tell him to do ? 

Mr. Gugel. To enforce the law, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you certainly did not enforce the law prior to, 
say, the middle of 1950, did you ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, the orders that I handed out to my men, I relied 
upon them. 

Mr. Halley. But you know very well that the gambling houses were 
running wide open, were they not ? 

Mr. Gugel. To my knowledge ; no. 

Mr. Halley. Until the early part of 1950 ? 

Mr. Gugel. To my knowledge ; no. 

Mr. Halley. Well, I can say to my knowledge they were wide open. 

Mr. Gugel. Well, I have never visited them. 

Mr. Halley. Do you mean to say that you never visited any of those 
notorious gambling houses in your jurisdiction ? 

Mr. Gugel. That is right. 

Mr. Halley. Do you today know which they were ? 

Mr. Gugel. I know where they were. 



376 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Halley. What are the gambling houses which are within your 
own jurisdiction? 

Mr. Gugel. There was the Merchants Club, the Yorkshire, which is 

518 York 

Mr. Halley. And the Flamingo? 

Mr. Gugel. 633 York, and at one time the Glenn Rendezvous 

The Chairman. Excuse me, sir, but what is your name? 
Mr. Lester. Charles E. Lester, lawyer. 
The Chairman. You are an attorney, from Newport ? 
Mr. Lester. Of Newport, 
The Chairman. Representing Chief Gugel ? 
Mr. Lester. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. Excuse me. 

Mr. Halley. Now, you were chief of police for 5 years? 
Mr. Gugel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And you didn't know that there was gambling going 
on in these places ? 

Mr. Gugel. I told you I had never visited them. "We have a chief 
of detectives and he takes care of the outside work. Being chief of 
police in the city of Newport, I also have the job as jailer there, 
that ordinarily comes under a sheriff, but the chief of police takes 
care of that. 

Mr. Halley. Now, without going into the details yet — you may 
if you want — are you going to sit here and just say you were too busy 
to find out if there was gambling in these places I 

Mr. Lester. I object. Mr. Chairman, let him ask him and he will 
tell him. 

Mr. Halley. Were you too busy to find out? Is that your point? 
Mr. Gugel. Well, my point is this, I take care of the office. The 
chief of detectives takes care of the outside work, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you, too, have a big responsibility, do you not? 
Mr. Gugel. That is light. 

Mr. Halley. And were you just incompetent to find out if the chief 
of detectives was doing his job at all ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, I was just taking his reports of the case. He 
turned in his reports to me. 

Mr. Halley. Well, you know very well that all, and if not all, 
practically all of the gambling houses running in your jurisdiction 
ran large ads in the Cincinnati papers, indicating that they were 
open ? 

Mr. Lester. We object to the attorney telling the witness what he 
knows. 

The Chairman. Mr. Lester, the chief of police ought to be familiar 
enough with what was going on. He has been in court a good many 
times, and I don't think that he is going to be taken advantage. 

The question was whether he knew that the Cincinnati papers ran 
advertisements as to the gambling places open for business In New- 
port, which is a fair question, and the witness will be called to 
answer. 

Mr. Gugel. I never read them. 

Mr. Halley. Well, these places advertised entertainment floor 
shows. They ran very big, elaborate ads, did they not ? 
Mr. Gugel. I couldn't say whether they did or not. 
Mr. Halley. You read the papers, don't you ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 377 

Mr. Gugel. "Well, I might read the front page. News I can get 
right at the office. 

Mr. Halley. Did } T ou ever ride in a taxicab in Cincinnati ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ever ride in a taxi in Newport ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Or in Covington ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. You have never ridden in a taxicab ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. As chief of police, have you ever had occasion to talk 
to a taxi driver? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Are you the only man in that entire vicinity who 
didn't know that any taxi driver could take you to a selection of 
five or six gambling joints ? 

Mr. Lester. TVe object. Nobody said that taxi drivers didn't know 
that. 

Mr. Halley. I inquired there, and I was taken to them. 

Mr. Lester. You are not a wutness. 

Mr. Halley. And I certainly wasn't chief of police. 

Mr. Lester. No, you are not. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Lester, make your objection. 

Mr. Lester. We don't think, Mr. Chairman, he ought to tell the 
witness ; we think he ought to ask him. 

Mr. Halley. Well, Mr. Lester, I think this is such a flagrant situa- 
tion. The chief may have a number of explanations why these places 
weren't closed, which might be reasonable, but I think it is utterly 
flagrant and contemptuous for him to sit there and say he didn't know. 

Mr. Lester. Contemptuous of whom ? 

Mr. Halley. Of this committee. 

Mr. Lester. He is not accountable to this committee. 

Mr. Halley. He certainly is. 

Mr. Lester. For what ? . 

Mr. Halley. For telling the truth. 

Mr. Lester. He is going to tell the truth. Just ask him. 

Mr. Halley. That is what I am doing. 

Did you not know there was gambling going on ? 

Mr. Gugel. You asked about the cabs, sir. I never ride in a cab. 
Now. if somebody told you, they didn't tell me. 

Mr. Halley. Let me put it a different way, Chief. Would you be 
surprised to know there is gambling going on? 

Mr. Gugel. For me, yes, because I have never been in there. All I 
know is what somebody told me. 

Mr. Halley. Well, try to be objective. Do you think anybody with 
that little knowledge of conditions in his own area is competent to be 
chief of police? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, that is possible. 

Mr. Halley. It is possible ? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes. 

Mr. Lester. The answer is that he is the chief. 

The Chairman. Chief, how are you selected? Do you run for 
office? 



378 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. You take an examination. Now, I put in IT 
years on the police department before I was appointed chief of 
police. 

The Chairman. I know, but who appoints you? 

Mr. Gugel. A civil-service board, sir. 

The Chairman. The Civil Service Board of Newport ? 

Mr. Gugel. That is right, 

The Chairman. I know, but are you appointed by the mayor, the 
city commissioner, or what ? 

Mr. Gugel. Oh, you take an examination, and they rank you 1, 
2, 3, and 4. 

The Chairman. Well, somebody has to select people from this 
range. 

Mr. Gugel. The manager. 

The Chairman. The manager? 

Mr. Gugel. The city manager ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You don't mean this present city manager selected 
you? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir ; he didn't. 

The Chairman. Who did select you, then? 

Mr. Gugel. At the time I went in, there was a man by the name of 
J. Bailey Morlidge, was city manager of the city of Newport. 

The Chairman. J. Bailey Morlidge? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes ; he was city manager at that time. 

The Chairman. How much are you paid? 

Mr. Gugel. My salary ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Gugel. $3,600 a year. 

The Chairman. Well, of course, they ought to pay a chief of police 
more than that. 

Now, Chief Gugel, you got a letter from this committee dated 
August 18, 1950, didn't you ? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, certainly I did. 

The Chairman. Have you got your reply to it ? 

Mr. Gugel. You mean the — that letter, the marshal came out and 
read to me in my home? This is what I got. [Witness produces 
document.] 

The Chairman. No; I mean a letter dated August 18, 1950: 

George Gugel, 

Chief of Police, Neioport, Ky. 
Dear Chief Gugel : — 

You got this letter ? [Proffers paper to witness.] 

It is signed by Mr. Robinson, associate counsel for the committee. 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, I got one of those, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever answer it? 

Mr. Gugel. Chief Donnelly taken care of that. Chief of detectives. 
He is the man that all those things get turned over to. 

The Chairman. Well, in our files we are unable to find an answer 
to this letter. The letter is dated August 18, 1950, addressed to Chief 
George Gugel, chief of police, Newport, Ky. It says that the records 
of the committee indicate that the Ace Research Service, 617 York 
Street, Newport, Ky., is operating a news service business with the 



ORGANIZED^ CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 379 

following subscribers in Newport, Ky.— and GG or 07 subscribers are 
listed. 

The letter concludes : 

It would appear that the above persons are undoubtedly engaged in tbe 
operation of making book on horse races, which presumably is contrary to the 
laws of the State of Kentucky. I would appreciate if you would furnish the 
Special Committee To Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce with 
all information you have, or may be able to develop, regarding the owners and 
operators of the Ace Research Service, the activities in which the above persons 
are engaged, and efforts being made by the police department to determine the 
activities of these people, and the nature of their operations, as well as other 
pertinent information. 
Sincerely, 

George S. Robinson. 

Associate Counsel. 

You got this letter and never replied to it. 

Mr. Gugel. I turned it over to Detective Chief Donnelly. 

The Chairman. What did you do about this? 

Mr. Gugel. I say I don't know whether he answered it or not. 

The Chairman. Did you do anything about the Ace Research 
Service, G17 York Street, Newport, Ky. 

Mr. Gugel. Still the same thing. 

The Chairman. Still operating this bookie distribution system? 

Mr. Gugel. I say the detectives checked it. I didn't check it. I 
wouldn't know. 

The Chairman. Here is a letter by which we were trying to do 
you a favor, calling your attention to all of the bookies or all that 
we had any reference to in Newport, and the names and the addresses 
of the bookies or distributors, and you got it, you didn't do anything 
about it, you didn't even answer our letter. 

Mr. Gugel. Well, when a letter like that comes in, Senator, I turn 
it over to the chief of detectives who is in charge of that. 

The Chairman. Let's make the letter an exhibit to the record. 

(The paper identified was thereupon received in evidence as exhibit 
No. 74, and appears in the appendix on p. 468.) 

Mr. Halley. Chief, yon said that when the new administration 
came in a meeting was called. 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. And who was at the meeting? 

Mr. Gugel. The chief — the board was there, Mr. Rhoads, and the 
chief of detectives, my assistant chief, Tehan, and there were several 
other officers there. I don't remember offhand. 

Mr. Halley. This board has been elected on a reform platform, is 
that right ? 

Mr. Gugel. What board ? 

Mr. Halley. The new board. 

Mr. Gugel. Well, I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. Halley. You were around when the campaign was going on? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes. I was. 

Mr. Halley. What was the basis of their campaign? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, their slogan was "Clean up but not close up." 

Mr. Halley. Clean up what ? 

Mr. GucxEL. Well, I didn't know. That was their slogan. 

Mr. Halley. And not close up what I 

68958 — 51— pt. 6 25 



380 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Gugel. I don't know. That was their slogan, it wasn't mine, sir. 

Mr. Hallet. What happened at this meeting which took place early 
in January 1950 ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, just offhanded I think I can remember part of it, 
that the manager, Rhoads, he acted as a spokesman — I think he is 
still here and you can call him back. He says, "Just wait until we 
get our feet under the table and the orders will be coming to you." 

Mr. Halley. The orders to do what ? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, I don't know what he meant. 

Mr. Halley. You mean he didn't elaborate any more than that ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. Were there minutes kept of that meeting ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. No stenographer was present ? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

Mr. Halley. There was no discussion of gambling at that meeting? 

Mr. Gugel. No. 

Mr. Halley. Nobody said, "There are some places operating gam- 
bling here and we think we will want you to clean them up but not 
close them up" ? 

Mr. Gugel. No ; they didn't say that to my knowledge. 

Mr. Halley. Did you ask them what they meant by clean up but 
not close up ? 

Mr. Gugel. No; I just waited until they sent me down the orders 
like Mr. Rhoads says, May the 4th is when that started. 

Mr. Halley. These places you have mentioned, you knew they were 
in existence, I presume, prior to January 1950? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right, 

Mr. Halley. And you thought they were night clubs ? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

Mr. Halley. As the chief of police, did you ever ask for a report 
on night clubs to see how they were run? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes; I had my men going in there quite a bit, and they 
would always come back with a report to me. 

Mr. Halley. Did none of your men ever report that there was 
gambling in progress in these places? 

Mr. Gugel. No ; they didn't. 

Mr. Halley. You have since found out that there was gambling, 
have you not ? 

Mr. Gugel. In those places ? 

Mr. Halley. Yes. 

Mr. Gugel. Well. I think one of them was raided, the Merchants 
was raided, and the case is still in the court of appeals. In other 
words, we had to get a warrant. They went and got a warrant and 
the place was cleaned up. They brought their equipment in and it 
is still down there. 

Mr. Halley. How did it happen to get raided ? 

Mr. Gugel. On information. 

Mr. Halley. Whose information? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, the detective chief and them went and the door 
was locked and they couldn't get in, and they went and secured a 
warrant to break the door down if they didn't leave them in. 

Mr. Halley. What did they do, ride up in a police car with the 
siren blasting so (hat the door would be locked? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 381 

Mr. Gugel. No ; I wouldn't know that. 

Mr. H alley. You know very well if you rode up to any of those 
places in a taxicab you could check your coat and hat and walk in, 
couldn't you ? 

Mr. Lester. We object to him telling him. 
Mr. Halley. I asked him ; I didn't tell him. 
Mr. Lester. It sounded to me like you told him. 
The Chairman. Read the question. 
(Question read.) 

Mr. Lester. It still sounds to me like he is telling him. 
The Chairman. He is just asking him. 

Mr. Gugel. I couldn't check my hat and coat and walk in there, 
you know that, because I was born and raised in the town ; they alt 
know who I am. 

Mr. Halley. It is a small town, isn't it? 
Mr. Gugel. Thirty-two thousand, sir. 

Mr. Halley. And you stand on your statement under oath that 
you didn't know T there was gambling going on ? 

Mr. Gugel. For me to say it, I have to say "No; I don't." 
Mr. Halley. Did you have any information which should have; 
warranted a diligent chief of police to go in and find out? 

Mr. Gugel. Whenever I had any information, I sent my men there 
and there was different times raids was made. I got my report here 
from 1950. Other rcids was -mr.de in the city of Newport and what 
happened ? Would you care for it sir I 

The Chairman. Yes, sure. Let's file it in the record. Can we have 
this ? 

(Reports are identified as exhibit No. 75, and appear in the appen- 
dix on p. 470.) 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, sir. That is a yearly report. We make out a 
monthly report, and gambling, I think there was 44 arrests. 
Mr. Halley. How many were made prior to May 1950? 
Mr. Gugel. It was about the same as that. That's the FBI record! 
up in Washington ; it can be checked. 

Mr. Halley. That is made by your people; they get their informa- 
tion from you. 

Mr. Gugel. Well, it is a public record. Anybody can 

Mr. Halley. Is it your position that your men were making raids 
during January, February, and March and April, 1950? 
Mr. Gugel. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Halley. Have you since brought in the men who made those 
raids and asked them why they didn't find any gambling going on? 
Air. Gugel. I missed that question that you asked there. 
Mr. Halley. Chief, this won't be a question. I went there and saw 
the gambling and it wasn't hard to see, as a matter of fact. 
Mr. Gugel. When was that ? 
Mr. Halley. That was in the early part of 1950. 
Mr. Gugel. Well, there was raids made along in there anytime we 
got any information. 

Mr. Halley. The places were wide open. 

The Chairman. Let the record show that he has 1,733 arrests in 
1950 and that 41 of them were for gambling and 518 for violation of 
road and driving laws. May we file this ? 
Mr. Gugel. Sure. 



382 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on. 

Mr. Halley. I won't ask any more. 

Mr. Nellis. Chief Gugel, I referred to some of these places as night 
clubs ; is that right ? 

Mr. Gugel. Some of the cafes have a license to 12 o'clock and others 
have them to 2, and that's the night clubs, the 2 o'clock. 

Mr. Nellis. Aren't there frequently serious crimes committed 
around these places? 

Mr. Gugel. No. You can read there the juke — that's on there 
what — I have been chief of police 5 years and we have no major crime 
that isn't solved in the city of Newport of 32,000 people. 

Mr. Nellis. You have heard of Clayton "Rip" Farley, haven't you ? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't he hold up a crap table in the Yorkshire some- 
time in 1946 ? 

Mr. Gugel. He was shot up on York State in front of the Flamingo. 
That was in February. 

Mr. Nellis. 1916? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, 22d, Washington's Birthday. 

Mr. Nellis. Isn't that right ? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't that have something to do with a hold-up in one 
of these joints? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, if it was a hold-up, it wasn't reported. 

Mr. Nellis. You didn't make an investigation of it, in any event? 

Mr. Gugel. Well, sir, I told you Chief Donley takes care of all that. 

Mr. Nellis. You are not interested in what your chief of detectives 
does; is that right? You have no news from him that you can tell 
the committee about what you are doing to clean it up ? 

The Chairman. Mr. Gugel, did one of your men get in trouble in 
connection with some people from Miami who allegedly they were 
trying to frame at the instigation of some Miami gamblers? Do you 
remember that? 

Mr. Gugel. About 5 years ago Mr. Morleys, the city manager, 
handled that, sir. 

The Chairman. What was that \ 

Mr. Gugel. I says I don't know ; Mr. Morleys handled that. 

The Chairman. Weren't there some people out of Miami trying to 
frame some of the officials in Florida on trumped-up charges in 
Newport, Ky., and didn't you have to fire — didn't some detective get 
fired in connection with it ? 

Mr. Gugel. Oh, no. 

The Chairman. Do you remember? 

Mr. Gugel. There hasn't been nobody fired or suspended since I 
have been chief of police. I will say better than that, 5 years before 
that. 

The Chairman. You mean nobody on your force has been tired or 
suspended? 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you think your people get paid oil or do you 
get paid off, Chief? 

Mr. Gugel. No; I don't. 

The Chairman. Any presents or anything of that sort I 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 383 

The Chairman. From these people \ What do you think about your 
men who go around to these places? Do you think they are getting 
paid off for not closing them down? 

Mr. Gugel. I couldn't answer that. I don't know whether they do 
or not. 

The Chairman. You don't know I 
Mr. Gugel. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Well, that's all, Mr. Gugel. 
Air. Lester. Mr. Chairman, may I ask him a question? 
The Chairman. Yes; you may ask a question, Mr. Lester. 
Mr. Lester. Mr. Gugel, the City Manager Rhoacls testified to the 
committee that he made no distinction between gamblers that he char- 
acterized as local and those from elsewhere. State whether or not 
that is so. 

Mr. Gugel. Well, that is in regards to right after that order of May, 

Detective Chief Donley and them went out on 

Mr. Lester. Do you have a copy of the city manager's order to you 
of May 4, 1950? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes; I have. 

Mr. Lester. File it with the committee, will you, please? 
The Chairman. Let me see it. 

Mr. Gugel. Wait just a minute. Wait until I get a photostat. I 
got the original here in my pocket but I wouldn't like to lose it. 
The Chairman. Is it long? Let's see it. 

Mr. Gugel. No, sir; it isn't long but I wouldn't like — I wouldn't 
like to lose it. 

The Chairman. Well, will you read it if it is that long? 
Mr. Lester. I didn't ask you about that. Do you have a copy of 
the city manager's order given to you under date of May 4, 1950 ? 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Gugel, suppose you see if you can find it 
here and give it to us and then we will read it into the record and give 
it back to you. 

Mr. Lester. Did you have a meeting with the city manager after 
you received the order of May 4, 1950 ? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes. That was on February the 14th. 
Mr. Lester. What happened on February 14? 

Mr. Gugel. The city manager gave me an order. I don't know 
where it is at now. It was an order to go out and close up certain 
places and I assigned Donley and— Chief of Detectives and Haw- 
thorne, Fredericks, and here is the letter which came. 

Mr. Lester. Did you have a meeting with the city manager after 
having received that order? 
Mr. Gugel. Yes, I did. 
Mr. Lester. Where was that meeting? 
Mr. Gugel. In the manager's office. 
Mr. Lester. That is in the city hall of Newport, Ky. ? 
Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

Mr. Lester. Did you make a memorandum in writing concerning 
that meeting, a summary of what took place? 
Mr. Gugel. I did. 

Mr. Lester. Who attended the meeting? 

Mr. Gugel. Detectives Dave Donley, Ray Hawthorne, and Fred- 
ericks. 



384 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Lester. They were present at the meeting with you, with the 
city manager, Rhoads? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

Mr. Lester. You have with you that memorandum summarizing the 
meeting? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

Mr. Lester. Signed by Detective Donley ? 

Mr. Gugel. Hawthorne. 

Mr. Lester. Ray Hawthorne? Who is the other? Fredericks? 

Mr. Gugel. Leroy Fredericks. 

Mr. Lester. And yourself? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. Do you want it? 

The Chairman. Let him tell us what was said at the meeting. Let 
me see it. 

Mr. Lester. Lie will tell you, Mr. Chairman, and file with you a 
copy. I was going to hand you the two to compare them if you like. 
He has the original and would like to keep it. 

The Chairman. Is Mr. Rhoads still here? 

Mr. Lester. Now, the 

The Chairman. I want to see if Mr. Rhoads is still here. 

Mr. McCormick. He is here. 

The Chairman. He is here. You stay here, Mr. Rhoads, and hear 
what is said. 

Mr. Rhoads. Sure. 

The Chairman. Here is a memorandum dated February 15. Do you 
swear this is true ? 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. 1950, signed by Mr. Gugel. 

4 p. m., February 15, 1950, I visited Manager Rhoads' office in company with 
Detective Chief Donley and Detective Hawthorne and Detective Fredericks. The 
purpose of the visit was to ascertain from the city manager what he desired to 
do in regard to the Merchants Club, 15 East Fourth Street, city, and the York- 
shire Club, 518 York Street, city, in regard to gambling, which information I 
received from Mr. Hagerdorn, Kentucky Post reporter, that the places were in 
operation. 

Upon receiving this information I detailed a detective to make an investigation 
of this complaint. 

I informed Manager Rhoads that Dectective Chief Donley and Detectives Haw- 
thorne and Fredericks informed me that at their visit at the herein-mentioned 
clubs, they found the doors leading to the back rooms were locked, and upon 
seeking permission to enter the back rooms, this was refused, and they were 
informed that in order to gain entrance it would be necessary for them to secure 
a search warrant. 

Manager Rhoads informed me that he was not interested in the Merchants 
Club, at 15 East Fourth Street, or the Yorkshire Club, 51S York Street. The 
only places he was interested in were those owned and operated by Arthur Den- 
nart which are the Flamingo Club, 63 York Street, Glenn Rendezvous, 928 
Memphis Street, and Club Alexander, 2124 Monmouth Street, city, because 
Dennert was the only operator who filed suit in the quarterly court concerning 
Lis assessments of personal property. 

Datective Chief Donley asked the manager, "You mean to tell me you do not 
want these other places stopped?" And the manager said no. 

Detective Donley asked this question two or three times and the manager's 
answer was the same, "No. I am not interested in any of the places outside 
of the dinner clubs." 

Is that what you think took place? That is your statement, is it? 
Mr. Gugel. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 385 

The Chairman. All right. Any further questions? 

Mr. Lester. Yes, sir. Chief Gugel, state whether or not by reputa- 
tion the Yorkshire and the Merchants Clubs are operated by the 
Cleveland mob. 

Mr. Gugel. Yes, I had heard that. 

Mr. Lester. And Arthur Dennert's places referred to in this letter 
are not, are they, so far as you know '. 

Mr. Gugel. No. 

Mr. Lester. What you have heard by way of reputation thereabouts. 
So then it is incorrect that the city manager made no distinction be- 
tween the mob's operations in Newport, Ky., and those operated by 
what we will call local talent? 

Mr. Gugel. That's right. 

The Chairman. All right, that is all, Mr. Gugel. 

Mr. Lester. That is all. 

The Chairman. I just want to say, Mr. Gugel, that this is a very, 
very poor showing of law enforcement, from all the evidence that we 
have had. It does not show much inclination to do much about it. 
Further, we were very much disappointed that nothing came from the 
little help that we try to give you in connection with this bookie 
service. We thought we would have a warm reception but I don't think 
we even got the courtesy of acknowledgement to our letter. 

Mr. Gugel. I will check with Detective Chief Donley. 

The Chairman. But we wrote you, Chief. It was you we were 
looking for. 

Now, Mr. Rhoads, you have heard this statement. If you have any- 
thing to add 

Mr. Rhoads. Yes; I do have, Senator. In the first place, both 
places referred to, the Merchants Club and the Yorkshire, have been 
raided at my instigation. We were able to get in and found gambling 
equipment in both places. The letter that he refers to, the statement 
made in the memorandum, is absolutely untrue. 

If you will read the letter that preceded this you will understand 
a little better possibly what happened. Mr. Lester filed suit, some 
41 or 42 tax suits, against the city in an attempt to embarrass the city 
administration regarding the assessment of several clients. Among 
them there is the 633 Club, the Alexander Club, and I believe Smith's 
place, and he complained about the assessment as to the personal 
property there. So I asked the police to go and make a check of the 
personal property in those places to determine just what personal 
property was there and whether or not there was a basis for their 
complaint in order that we might prepare the proper defense, if there 
was any necessary. 

Chief Gugel knows quite well that every order that has been given 
him has been to enforce the law, period. 

The Chairman. That is all. Thank you, gentlemen. 
Let's have Mr. Eldridge, very briefly. Mr. Eldridge, will you be 
sworn ? 

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give this com- 
mittee will be the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help 
you God? 

Mr. Eldridge. I do. 



386 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF GERALD ELDRIDGE, TOLEDO, OHIO 

Mr. Nellis. What is your name, please, and address ? 

Mr. Eldridge. Gerald Eldridge, 1843 Alexis Road, Toledo, Ohio. 

Mr. Nellis. What is your occupation ? 

Mr. Eldridge. Paint grinder for E. I. du Pont Co. 

Mr. Nellis. Didn't you get into an antigambling crusade as a result 
of some action taken by the township's school board ? 

Mr. Eldridge. That is right. About 1946 we had a 17-year-old 
high-school boy who went into a local drug store in our township 
with money given him by his mother to make a purchase. There were 
slot machines in that drug store in which he lost that money, and 
without the nerve to face his folks, he entered a home in the attempt 
to steal money, and was caught and went before the juvenile authorities. 

Mr. Nellis. Yes. Mr. Eldridge 

The Chairman. Did he get sent up, or something I 

Mr. Eldridge. No. He was probated in custody. 

Mr. Nellis. As a result of that rather dramatic incident, the school 
board decided to do something about the gambling in Toledo and 
Lucas County ? 

Mr. Eldridge. It wasn't the school board. It was the Washington 
Township Community Council, a group of organizations of civic- 
minded people in the township. 

Mr. Nellis. And you were at the head of that campaign, is that 
right? 

Mr. Eldridge. After this incident happened, about 2 years later 
I was elected president of this organization. 

Mr. Nellis. That was in about 1946, is that right ? 

Mr. Eldridge. The incident was, yes. 

Mr. Nellis. Can you tell us about the gambling clubs that run there ? 
Just give us their names in Toledo and Lucas County. Was there the 
Pines Club? 

Mr. Eldridge. The Pines Club is about a quarter mile west of my 
home on Alexis Road. 

The Chairman. Are all of these places outside of the city of Toledo ? 

Mr. Eldridge. Yes, they are. 

The Chairman. In Lucas County ? 

Mr. Eldridge. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. And the Chesterfield Club on Dixie Highway ? 

Mr. Eldridge. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. And the Webster Inn on Detroit Avenue ? 

Mr. Eldridge. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. The Victory Club on Dorr and Westwood Avenue ? 

Mr. Eldridge. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. And the Westwood Club nearby, is that right? 

Mr. Eldridge. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Who owns these clubs, Mr. Eldridge ? 

Mr. Eldridge. To the best of my knowledge, 1 can only account for 
three. 

Mr. Nellis. What are those, and tell us who you think owns them? 

Mr. Eldridge. The Benor Club, which is now closed, the Pines and 
the Chesterfield. 

During this investigation on the slols, rackets, I was approached by 
a former deputy sheri I! under Charles Ilennessy. 



ORGANIZED- CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 387 

Mr. Nellis. Did lie approach you at a specific time and place, do 
you recall ? 

Mr. Eldridge. He called at my home and asked if he could speak 
to me. 

Mr. Nellis. Whal was his name? 

Mr. Eldridge. Edward Brubaker. 

Mr. Nellis. Is he a neighbor of yours ? 

Mr. Eldridge. Yes, he is. 

Mr. Nellis. Proceed, Mr. Eldridge. 

Mr. Eldridge. He asked if he could call at my home and speak to 
me, and that I granted, and upon his arrival I stepped out to his car 
and spoke to him, and he asked me if I would be willing to meet with 
Joe Fretti, who I had suspected at that time of being one of the owners 
in the gambling establishments. 

Mr. Nellis. Particularly the Pines Club which was near your home, 
is that right? 

Mr. Eldridge. No, at that time I didn't. There was a man by the 
name of Whitney Joe Besesi was supposed to be the owner of the 
Pines, but upon Mr. Brubaker's invitation to meet with Mr. Fretti, 
which I accepted, we went in his car over to a place almost directly 
across from the Webster, a little restaurant called the Bellaire. 

Mr. Nellis. Can we place the time and the year? 

Do you recall that? 

Mr. Eldrtdge. I believe I have it. 

Mr. Nellis. Would you put that in the record, please, Mr. Eldridge? 

Mr. Eldridge. I made a notation in my little book at the time. 

Mr. Ellis. You made that notation at the time this all took place? 

Mr. Eldridge. That's right, as soon as I got back home. Naturally 
I didn't make it in the presence of the party. 

It was on the 21st day of May, on the corner of Pasadena and 
Detroit. 

Mr. Nellis. What year ? 

Mr. Eldridge. Of 1948, I believe. 

Mr. Nellis. Go ahead. 

Mr. Eldridge. We met — that is, we removed ourselves from Mr, 
Brubaker's car and got into Mr. Fretti's car and carried on quite a 
little conversation. 

Mr. Nellis. Was it a pretty car, Mr. Eldridge? 

Mr. Eldridge. No. It was a Ford, a late model, but it was a Ford. 

Now, at this time Mr. Fretti, of course, was interested in how far 
we were attempting to go with the investigation. My statement to 
him at that time was this : "At the present time w T e are only inter- 
ested in the slot machines, but we intend to carry it before the grand 
jury, and we will ask the grand jury to make a complete investigation 
of gambling in Lucas County." 

He at that time asked me this question : "Is the Pines objectionable 
to you?" 

I made the following statement: "No more so to me than the rest 
of my neighbors, but on Sunday afternoon it is nearly impossible 
to get out of my driveway, dodging taxicabs and fish wagons." 

He said, "Well, now, if the Pines is objectionable to you, I will 
close it down if vou will leave the Benor Club go." 



388 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

I said, "I can't make you any promises. We are investigating the 
slot machines. If it gets to the grand jury, I don't know what they will 
do." 

The only other statement of any pertinency that I recall at that time 
was this — it was not a bribe offer — the only statement was, "Well, if 
you ever need anything, call me." 

And he gave me his telephone number which is Garfield 2324 in 
Toledo. 

Mr. Nellis. And you thereupon left ? 

Mr. Eldkidge. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. Did you go back to your home in Mr. Brubaker's car? 

Mr. Eldkidge. That's right. 

Mr. Nellis. It was a pretty good prearranged plan ? 

Mr. Eldridge. I would say so. 

Mr. Nellis. Well, all right. I have no further questions. 

The Chairman. What did you do about it? 

What happened ? Did you ever get them closed up ? 

Mr. Eldridge. By my signing an affidavit to this effect on a lawsuit 
brought by Flooze and Olinger by, I think the name is George and 
Grace Widmar, who were residents on Dorr Road objecting to the 
Benor Club, there was an injunction — a temporary injunction filed, 
and the Benor Club was subsequently closed. 

Six hours after the Benor Club closed, the Chesterfield was in opera- 
tion. We checked the moving vans moving the equipment out of the 
Benor Club and trailed them to the Chesterfield Club so we know that 
is exactly where they moved into. 

Mr. Nellis. So far as you know, the gambling ran wide open as 
recently as last vveek, is that right ? 

Mr. Eldridge. Until 5 o'clock Monday morning the gambling houses 
were open, and on 7 o'clock on Tuesday morning — and I believe you 
moved in here at 8 o'clock on Tuesday morning — the slot machines 
were in. 

The Chairman. What happened to the slot