r^
ft DOCUMENTS
INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
ORGANIZED CEIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-FIKST CONGEESS
SECOND SESSION
AND
EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 202
(81st Congress)
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OP
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
PART 7
NEW YORK— NEW JERSEY
JULY II; AUGUST 15; OCTOBER 11, 12; DECEMBER 12, 13, 1950;
FEBRUARY 13, 14, 15; MARCH 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, 1951
Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce
INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
^. _ HEARINGS
\\ fO }^t>^^^^ BEFORE THE
" SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
OEGANIZED CEIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-FIKST CONGEESS
SECOND SESSION
AND
EIGHTY-SECOND CONGEESS
FIRST SESSION
PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 202
(81st Congress)
A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
PART 7
NEW YORK— NEW JERSEY
JULY 11; AUGUST 15; OCTOBER 11, 12; DECEMBER 12, 13, 1950;
FEBRUARYJ3, 14, 15; MARCH 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, 1951
Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1951
M. S. SUPERINTENDENT OF DOCUMENTS
MAY 18 1951
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME IN
INTERSTATE COMMERCE
ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee, Chairman
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland CHARLES W. TOBEY, New Hampshire
LESTER C. HUNT, Wyoming ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin
Rudolph Hallbt, Chief Counsel
n
CONTENTS
Testimony of — ^^se
A'Hearn, Walter F., detective, Saratoga Springs, N. Y., accompanied
bv Danie H. Prior, attorney, Albany, 1v[. Y... 465-473, 1263-1273
Ambro, Jerome G., Brooklyn, N. Y., assistant attorney general,
State of New York 563-583, 869-877
Anastasia, Umberto (Albert), Palisades, N. J 672-693, 1696-1716
Anastasia, Anthony, Hoboken, N. J 1473-1489
Arkin, Jack W., New York, N. Y 95-103
Astore, Charles, Lodi, N. J., accompanied by James V. Toscano, Jr.,
attorney 20-25
Bals, Frank C, Fort Lauderdale, Fla 583-601, 1098-1129
Barker, John W., New York, N. Y 54-74
Bernstein, James B., Jamaica, N. Y 197-205
Bernstein, William, New York, N. Y 74-78
Borelli, Michael M., commissioner of public safety, Hoboken, N. J.,
accompanied by Samuel J. Davidson, attorney, Hoboken, N. J_ 1438-1456
BoreUi, Frank Nicholas, Cliflfside Park, N. J 236-241
Braden, Spruille, chairman, Anti-Crime Committee of New York. 1601-1608
'Bruno, Andrew Patio, New York, N. Y 183-197
Bugnon, Emile E., chief of police, Wood-Ridge, N. J 28-30
Calandra, Anthony A., attorney, Newark, N, J,, representing Gerald
Catena ' 244-246
Casey, Walter, acting lieutenant, detective division. New York City
Pohce Department 1-6
Cassese, Vincent, Brooklyn, N. Y., accompanied by Leo Healy,
attorney, Brooklyn, N. Y 865-868
Catena, Gerald, South Orange, N. J 647-664
Catena, Mrs. Katherine, South Orange, N. J., accompanied by
Anthony Calandra, Newark, N. J 103-112
Charnay, David B., Allied Public Relations Associates, accompanied
by Henry E. Schultz, attorney 695-716
Corsi, Edward, New York, N. Y 1580-1585
Costello, Frank, New York, N. Y., accompanied by George Wolf,
attorney. New York, N. Y 877-1021, 1170-1179
1258-1262, 1419-1437, 1585-1601, 1625-1659, 1661-1676
Courtney, Irving, New York, N. Y., accompanied by James Ronayne,
attorney 527-531
Crane, John P., president, local 94, International Association of Fire
Fighters, New York, N, Y., accompanied by Mr. Gelb, attorney,
New York, N. Y 1273-1281, 1676-1690
Dameo, Philip L., Shorthills, N. J 167-172
Doto, Joseph, alias Joe Adonis, Fort Lee, N. J., accompanied by
Harold H. Corbin, attorney. New York, N. Y 280-316, 847-865
Drolet, Father Jerome A., St. Charles Church, Lafourche Parish, La. 1202-
1208
Erickson, Frank, accompanied bv Harold H. Corbin, attorney. New
York, N. Y '. 810-830
Florio, Edward J., Hoboken, N.J 1456-1466
Gaffney, John A., superintendent, New York State Police 412-431,
1241-1257
Gale, Joseph T., New York, N. Y 83-88
Goldstein, George, Newark, N. J 112-148
Goldstein, Julius, Schenectadv, N. Y 459-465
Haffenden, Charles R., New York, N. Y 1187-1198
Haft, Isidore, New York, N. Y 88-90
Hathorn, Frank S., sheriff, Saratoga County, N. Y 487-499
Hauser, Virginia Hill, Spokane, Wash 1 144-1 170
Hedden, Walter P., director of port development. Port of New York
Authority 1130-1134
Helfand, Julius, assistant district attorney, Kings County, N. Y. 1022-1042
IV CONTEINTS
Testimony of — Continued Page
Henschel, Joseph, New York, N. Y., accompanied by Arthur H.
Schwartz, attorney 510-526
Katz, Louis, Brooklyn, N. Y., accompanied by John J. Broderick,
attorney 693-695
Kessler, Milton, Brooklyn, N. Y 205-218
LaForge, Charles, inspector, New York State Police, Troy, N. Y__ 402-412,
432-436, 1210-1228
Lansky, Mever, New York, N. Y , accompanied by Moses Polakoff,
attorrey, New York, N. Y ^ 148-163, 601-618
Lascari, Michael, East Orange, N. J 732-743
Leary, James, Saratoga County, N. Y 499-509
Levine, Samuel, Bureau of Narcotics, United States Treasury Depart-
ment 1076-1098
Lew, George Morton, attorney, Freeport, Long Island, N. Y 758-810,
1042-1066
Lipsky, Charles, Long Island, N. Y 831-847
Longano, Arthur, Englewood, N. J., accompanied by John E. Selser,
attorney, Hackensack, N. J 385-399
Longano, Mrs. Jean, Englewood, N. J., accompanied by Theodore
Rosenberg, attorney, Paterson, N. J 173-179
Lynch, James, Palisades Park, N. J., accompanied by John E. Selser,
attorney, Hackensack, N.J 37.5-385
Lynch, Mrs. Virginia, Palisades Park, N. J., accompanied by Theodore
Rosenberg, attorney, Paterson, N. J 179-183
M(^r)onald, Miles F., district attorney. Kings Countv. N. Y 1022-1042
McGarvey, Francis S., chief inspector, New York ^tate Police 436-446,
1228-1241
McLaughlin, James Francis, Valley Stream, N. Y 1066-1076
McLaughUn, John, Lindy Lake, N. J 12-16
Malone, William B., Paterson, N.J 31-33
Martin, Gerard M., receptionist, office of the fire commissioner, New
Yoik City Fire Department 1311-1316, 1320-1321
Mello, Joseph, Fairlawn, N.J 16-20
Moity, Warren J., New Iberia, La 1208-1210
Moran, James J., commissioner, board of water supply. New York
City 618-640, 1282-1309
Moretti, Salvatore, Demarest, N. J., accompanied by John E. Selser,
attorney, Hackensack, N.J 246-279
Moretti, William, Hasbrouck Heights, N. J., accompanied by John T.
SuUivan, attorney. New York, N. Y 321-374
Morici, Theodore, M. D., Passaic, N. J., accompanied by John T.
Sullivan, attorney, New York, N. Y 78-83
Murtagh, Hon. John M., chief magistrate of the city of New York_ 1401-1419
Narushef , Theodore, Linden, N.J 1467-1473
Neal, Clarence H., Jr., New York, N. Y 716-721
O'Dwyer, Hon. William, United States Ambassador to the Republic
of Mexico 1326-1401, 1491-1580
Orecchio, Michael, chief of county detectives in the office of the county
prosecutor, Fairview, N. J 218-236
Panettiere, Dr. Vincent J., Corona, Long Island, N. Y 1200-1201
Paris, Anna Z., Brooklyn, N. Y 664-672
Profaci, Joe, Brooklyn, N. Y., accompanied by James Ronayne,
attorney 743-751
Rox, Patrick F., chief of police, Saratoga Springs, N. Y., accompanied
by Daniel H. Prior, attorney 473-487
Rutkin, James, Newark, N. J., accompanied by Jack L. Cohen, at-
torney 531-561
Schmidt, Kenneth, Teaneck, N. J., industrial relations manager,
Wright Aeronautical Corp., Wood-Ridge, N. J 25-28
Silver, Henry, New York, N. Y 38-54
Simandl, Sidney Newark N. J., and Jack L. Cohn, Newark, N. J_ 164-167
Simon, Alfred L., Ballston Spa, N. Y 726-729
Stand, Bert, New York, N. Y 721-726, 1619-1625
Stephens, Philip, business manager. New York Daily News 1134-1142
Sullivan, John T., New York, N. Y., representing WiUiam Moretti,
Hasbrouck Heights, N. J 35-38
CONTENTS V
Testimony of — Continued Page
Sutherland, Alexander A., security director, Wright Aeronautical
Corp. engine plant, Wood-Ridge, N. J 7-12
Tausend, Francis, New York, N. Y 90-95
Weber, Lou, Brooklyn, N. Y 640-647, 1310-1311, 1316-1320
Weiss, Philip, Saratoga Springs, N. Y 446-459
White, Col. George H., narcotics agent, United States Treasury. 1180-1187
White, Henry, chief of poHce, Lodi, N. J 30-31
Summary of exhibits vi
Tuesday" July 11, 1950 1
Tuesday, August 15, 1950 7
Wednesday, October 11, 1950 35
Thursday,^ October 12, 1950 157
Tuesday, December 12, 1950 243
Wednesday, December 13, 1950 319
Tuesday, February 13, 1951 401
Wednesday, February 14, 1951 563
Thursday, February 15. 1951 731
Monday, March 12, 1951 753
Tuesday, March 13, 1951 869
Wednesday, March 14. 1951 975
Thursday, March 15, 1951 1085
Friday, March 16, 1951 1199
Monday, March 19, 1951 1323
Tuesday, March 20, 1951 1491
Wednesday, March 21, 1951 1611
Appendix 1 727
Supplemental data 1729
SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS
Number and summary of exhibits
1. Charles Henry Silver's withholding receipt for 1945, showing
wages in amount of $2,900, listing employer as Anthony
Guarini, G. & R. Trading Co., Hasbrouck Heights, N. J_..
2. Charles Henry Silver's withholding receipt for 1947, showing
wages in amount of $3,350, Hsting employers as James
Lynch, Gerald Catena, Joseph Doto, and Salvatore Moretti,
doing business as L. & C. Amusement Co., care of Charles
Handler
3. Charles Henry Silver's withholding receipt for 1948, from L.
& C. Amusement Co., care of Charles Handler, individuals
being J. Lynch, G. Catena, J. Doto, and S. Moretti
4. Charles Henry Silver's withholding receipt for 1948, showing
wages in amount of $1,500, from Pal Trading Co., care of
Charles Handler, the principals being J. Lynch, J. Doto,
A. Guarini, etal
5. Charles Henry Silver's withholding receipt for 1948, from
General Trading Co., Hasbrouck Heights, N. J
6. Income-tax returns and related documents covering 1947 and
1948, submitted by John W. Barker
7. Letter dated December 11, 1950, to Hon. Estes Kefauver,
from John Briggs, vice president, Ford Motor Co
8. Letters dated Octxjber 20, 1950, to H. G. Robinson, chief in-
vestigator, from Mel B. Lindquist, general industrial re-
lations manager. Ford Motor Co., and November 25, 1950,
to R. E. Beiser, general manager. National Automotive
Transporters Association, Detroit, Mich., from Automotive
Conveying Co. of New Jersey, Paul Bonadio, vice president
9. Card and photograph of building housing United States Linen
Supply Co. in Paterson, N. J
10. Photograph of William Moretti's home and list of directors of
various corporations
11. Photostat of check on Corn Exchange Bank Trust Co. for
$350, dated February 24, 1948, endorsed "James Lynch"
and "Max Stark, special," and deposited in Mercantile
Bank of New York
12. Photostat of check on Corn Exchange Bank Trust Co. for
for $500, dated September 26, 1947, endorsed "James
Lynch" and "Max Stark, special," and deposited in Mer-
cantile Bank of New York
13. John W. Barker's withholding statement for 1947, listing
employer as James Lynch, Gerald Catena, Joseph Doto,
and Salvatore Moretti, L. & C. Amusement Co., care of
Charles Handler, 790 Broad Street, Newark, N. J
14. John W. Barker's withholding statement from L. & L. Co.,
R. F. D. No. 1, Saratoga Springs, N. Y
15. Milton Kessler's withholding statement for 1945, listing em-
ployer as Anthony Guarini, G. & R. Trading Co., Has-
brouck Heights, N. J
16. Milton Kessler's withholding statement for 1948, listing em-
ployer as J. Lynch, G. Catena, J. Doto, and S. Moretti,
doing business as L. & C. Amusement Co
See footnotes, p. vn.
VI
39
41
41
41
42
70
298
315
371
371
380
380
383
383
383
383
CONTENTS
Schedule of Exhibits — Continued
vn
Number and summary of exhibits
17. Milton Kessler's withholding statement for 1948, listing em-
ployers as J. Lynch, J. Doto, A. Guarini, et al., doing busi-
ness as Pal Trading Co
18. Milton Kessler's withholding statement for 1947, from Nevada
Project Corp., doing business as the Flamingo, Las Vegas,
Nov
19. Copy of survey of gambling conditions in Saratoga County,
N. Y., in August 1947, identified by Charles LaForge, in-
spector. New York State police
20. State liquor authority release, dated October 4, 1950, re
revocation of licenses on the grounds of permitting gamb-
ling on the premises.
21. First lease, dated January 29, 1943, of Louis Katz for the
premises at 1514 Pitkin Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y
22. Second lease, dated May 14, 1947, of Louis Katz, for the
premises at 1514 Pitkin Avenue, Brooklyn, N. Y
23. Preliminary form for petition for naturalization (Frank
Costelloj and index card with data re Costello's naturaliza-
tion proceedings, March 13, 1951
24. Tabulation made by the committee of the annual circulation
of scratch sheets
25. Memorandum dated April 1950, Complaints Regarding Public
Loaders on Piers in New York Harbor, by Hedden
26. Copy of articles of incorporation of a slot-machine business..
27. Black book
28. Presentment of grand jury of King's County, October 29,
1945
29. Presentment of grand jury of King's County, December 20,
1945
Intro-
duced
384
385
403
411
693
693
915
1040
1131
1209
1417
1575
1575
0)
0)
1727
(0
e)
(0
0)
(0
(0
(0
(0
(1)
On file with committee.
Returned to witness.
Written into record.
SUPPLEMENTAL DATA
Page
Letter, dated March 21, 1951, from Joseph P. Ryan, president, Inter-
national Longshoremen's Association, and enclosed statement 1729
Letter, dated INIarch 28, 1951, from Hon. Thomas E. Dewey, Governor,
State of New York, and enclosed statements 1731
Letter, dated March 28, 1951, from Carmine G. DeSapio, county leader,
Democratic County Committee of the County of New York, and
enclosed statement, together with letter of March 27, 1951, to Hon.
Whitnev Nt)rth Seymour, president, Association of the Bar of the
City of "New York 1734
Telegram from John P. Redmond, president. International Association
of Fire Fighters 1737
Telegram from John E. Carton, president. Patrolmen's Benevolent
Association, City of New York 1738
INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE
COMMERCE
TUESDAY, JULY 11, 1950
United States Senate,
Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington, D. G.
executive session
The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 2 : 30 p. m.,
in the District of Columbia committee room, the Capitol, Washington,
D. C, Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman) presiding.
Present : Senators Kefauver, Hunt, and Wiley.
Also present : George S. Kobinson, associate counsel.
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. I think it would be well to have some of these
statements on the record. Lieutenant, will you identify yourself for
the record ?
TESTIMONY OF WALTER CASEY, ACTING LIEUTENANT, NEW
YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT, DETECTIVE DIVISION
Lieutenant Casey, Walter Casey, acting lieutenant, New York City
Police Department, Detective Division.
The Chairman. How long have you been in the police department,
Mr. Casey ?
Lieutenant Casey. 24 years. Prior to that I worked with Lincoln
National Detective Agency.
The Chairman. How old are you ?
Lieutenant Casey. Forty-six. I started when I was 16 doing that
work.
The Chairman. You do not look it. Go ahead and tell us anything
else.
Lieutenant Casey. You mean about the district attorney's office?
The Chairman. About the general set-up up there.
Lieutenant Casey. The general set-up in the district attorney's
office as far as my knowledge goes would be that Mr. Hogan had a
squad of detectives assigned to his office with a Captain Grafnecker
and a lieutenant whose name I don't recall right now, and about
60 to 70 detectives assigned to that office to do all the work coming
out of that office. In addition to that, the district attorney's office in
Brooklyn has a squad of men. I don't know the number, but I ima-
gine it must be 20 to 30 men working out of that office. Eight now
2 ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
he has a number of probationary patrolmen whose identities aren't
even known to any of the detective division, workino; on the gambling
probe in Brooklyn. The district attorney's office in Queens County has
a staff of detectives. I don't know how many he has, but I should say
10 to 15, maybe 20, and the district attorney in Bronx County also
has a staff of New York City detectives assigned to his office.
The Chairman. You mean the New York City detectives under the
police commissioner of New York are assigned to these other munici-
palities like Brooklyn and Queens?
Lieutenant Casey. Of course, the detective division of New York
City would take in the entire five boroughs.
The Chairman. I see.
Lieutenant Casey. They have precinct squads. They have approxi-
mately 120 or 130 precincts in the entire city of New York, the 5
boroughs, and each of these precincts has a detective squad with an
acting lieutenant or lieutenant or captain in command. Each squad
has anywhere from 8 to 25 men assigned to the squad. That is accord-
ing to how busy that precinct would be. For five precinct detective
squads, there would be what is called the divisional officer. The divi-
sion will be commanded by an acting captain or a deputy inspector or
inspector. Then each borough is commanded by a deputy chief in-
spector. Then we have a chief of detectives who takes in the entire
city.
At police headquarters itself we have what is called the central office
squads consisting of the specialty squads such as the safe and loft,
narcotics, pickpocket, the main office squads, the ballistics bureau, the
police laboratory, and they are all commanded by Acting Deputy Chief
Inspector Liddon. They work out of police headquarters.
The Chairman. Lieutenant Casey, while you are here, and since
everybody is going to Florida, as you know, if you would give Mr.
Robinson or somebody else as much of the picture as you can while you
are on this trip, and then you will be available for us to call on you for
information or records.
Lieutenant Casey. At any time at all. I was told by the police com-
missioner yesterday to inform you gentlemen that anything at all you
want in the city of New York is yours, any records, any investigations
the committee wants made there, or anything we have in the adjoining
States. We have quite a bit of information on racketeers in New
Jersey.
The Chairman. We appreciate that very, vei'y much.
Senator Hunt, do you have any questions ?
Senator Hunt. I do not believe so.
The Chairman. Senator Wiley ?
Senator Wiley. I think you should state on the record what you
started to tell in the beginning before we put it on the record, the con-
nection interstatewise between Jersey and New York. You said,
among other things, that you thought that the large racketeers had
emigrated to Jersey. Do you want to go more into detail in relation
to that and tell us who they are ?
Lieutenant Casey. About 10 years ago there were fellows like Joe
Adonis, Albert Anastasia, a fellow named Tony Bender — I have a
few cards here that I will refer to — a fellow named Genovese, another
fellow named Willie Moretti and Salvatore Moretti, and there are a
ORGANIZED CRIME IN rNTERSTATE COMMERCE 6
number of others whose names I cannot recall right now. They were
all residents of New York City, of Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, Man-
hattan. About 7 or 8 years ago they started moving out of the city,
and they all seemed to go over into one section of Jersey, just across
from the George Washington Bridge, Cliffside, N. J., Hasbrouck
Heights, and that section.
Senator Wiley. Do they have their homes there ?
Lieutenant Casey. They have their homes there. There is a bar and
grill which is the favorite hang-out, known as Duke's Bar and Grill,
and the address is 5786 Palisades Avenue, Cliffside, N. J. That for
the last 10 years has been a meeting place for all of these fellows. We
have kept these men under observation from time to time. We have
trailed anybody living in the city of New York ; we keep them under
surveillance when we have the men to do it. Many times we take them
right from New York over to Jersey. Erickson we have followed
from his home at 610 West End Avenue to a place at 311/2 Essex Street,
in Paterson, N. J. That was about a year ago. That seemed to be
his headquarters at that time. He would go there daily, driven there
by a chauffeur and a couple of other people who would meet him at his
residence. In covering the store at 311/2 Essex Street in Paterson
we also observed his brother leaving the place. Leonard Erickson,
who is his accountant. He is a certified public accountant.
Senator Wiley. What rackets did they engage in ?
Lieutenant Casey. That was boolonaking, but the bookmaking
seemed to be all done in Jersey, at least the trips were all made over
there. We could never get them to do anything in New York City out-
side of playing golf. Of course, Leonard Erickson had an office at
487 Park Avenue which was raided by District Attorney Hogan and
his office about a month ago, where all the records in the Erickson case
were found. Erickson since then has been indicted, at least an in-
formation filed in the special session and he pleaded guilty and re-
ceived 2 years in prison and also a $30,000 fine.
Senator Wiley. What effect does that have on bookmaking ?
Lieutenant Casey. I never did any work on gambling. My work
was to get the background of these racketeers, to dig up any informa-
tion I could possibly do, such as their associates with whom they were
associating, where they hang out, any businesses that they may have,
legitimate or illegitimate. Then we have a special squad assigned to
the chief inspector's office that does all the gambling work. The
detective division does not handle the gambling in New York City.
Senator Wiley. Who looks after the racketeering in relation to
shipment, getting large quantities of materials that have been stolen
and disposed of, and so forth ?
Lieutenant Casey. We have our safe and loft squad that handles all
truck highjackers. They also handle any safe burglary and any loft
burglary in the city, any warehouse burglary in the city of New York.
Senator Wiley. It has been estimated that $100,000,000 worth is
taken that way. Have you done anything to find out who is the head
of that racket ?
Lieutenant Casey. If it has been estimated $100,000,000 has been
taken that way, it didn't come into our office. The reports never came
in to our office, so I would have no knowledge of it.
Senator Wiley. What about the rackets in labor unions?
4 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN DsTERSTATE COMMERCE
Lieutenant Casey. We have a special squad that takes care of labor
unions, what we call the special services, the bureau of special services.
Senator Wiley. That is the Maritime Union too ?
Lieutenant Casey. That takes all unions, any union trouble at all.
They have records of all the officers. I guess they can tell you prac-
tically anything about any union in New York City.
Senator Wiley. Who is the head of that squad ?
Lieutenant Casey. There is a new captain, I think his name is Smith,
who was put in charge of the squad recently.
Senator Wiley. What suggestions have you to make as to how to
handle, from the standpoint of the Federal Government, the situation
as you know it, the racket situation in New York, in New Jersey, and
so forth?
Lieutenant Casey. I wouldn't have any suggestions right now. I
believe that Chief Liddon, who has handled a lot of this work, would
be the man to make any suggestions.
Senator Wiley. I think you said something in one of your previous
statements that you did have some information on the bookmaking
proposition that connected up with Florida. Any place else ?
Lieutenant Casey. We know that these fellows in New York and
New Jersey have connections in Florida. They have such places as
the Colonial Inn, and I think Frank Costello was supposed to own the
Beverly Club in New Orleans, just outside of New Orleans. Then
several years ago they had gambling houses in Las Vegas, Nev. Wlio
had those I don't recall right now. I believe a man named Meyer
Lansky had something to do with that; also Bugsy Siegel, who was
killed on the west coast several years ago.
Senator Wiley. You have in New York a State income tax, haven't
you?
Lieutenant Casey. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. Do these fellows return their State income to New
York or to New Jersey ?
Lieutenant Casey. I don't know.
Senator Wiley. New Jersey has a State income tax, do you know?
Lieutenant Casey. I don't know whether Jersey has one or not. I
may be wrong, but I don't believe Jersey has a State income tax. I
might be wrong.
Senator Wiley. Are there any distinct fields of racketeering that
you have knowledge of that you think the committee should have
information about outside of what you have stated ?
Lieutenant Casey. No, sir; not that I can recall.
The Chairman. How about the narcotics trade ?
Lieutenant Case. The narcotics trade is another phase that is
handled by a special squad, the narcotics squad. They have probably
25 to 30 detectives assigned to that work and that work only. Any
information that any detective in New York City gets regarding
narcotics must be given to the narcotics squad so that squad can handle
it. Of course, they work in cooperation with the Federal Narcotics
Bureau.
The Chairman. That is fine. We appreciate very much your offer
of help, and we will call on you very extensively.
Lieutenant Casey. Anything that we can possibly give you you
are welcome to.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 5
Mr. Halley asked me last night to show yon these pictures in which
he thought you might be interested. This is the residence of William
Moretti.
The Chairman. Can we keep these pictures ?
Lieutenant Casey. I will get a set and send it down.
The Chairman. It is a nice house, isn't it ?
Lieutenant Casey. This is another view of Moretti's house. He has
a beautiful home there. This is a residence of Anastasia overlooking
the Hudson. This is the residence of x\bner Zwillman, known as
Longie Zwillman, East Orange, N. J. This is the home of Zwillman
at Deal, N. J., his summer home.
The Chairman. You mean he has two houses ?
Lieutenant Casey. So has Moretti. This is the summer home of
Frank Costello on Long Island. This is the home of Genovese, in
New Jersey. This is the residence of Thomas Luchese, at Malvern,
N. y. That is in New York City. This is another view of Zwillman's.
home in Deal, N. J. This is the residence of Joe Adonis.
The Chairman. Where does he live ?
Lieutenant Casey. He lives at Cliffside, N. J. This is a photograph
of Duke's Bar and Grill in Cliffside, N. J. That is the hang-out for
all these fellows.
The Chairman. What sort of cooperation do you get out of New
Jersey police commissioners and the attorney general ?
Lieutenant Casey. Any work that we had in Jersey we do ourselves,
if we can, without asking cooperation, because all of our work would
be surveillance. When we have these fellows under surveillance we
don't want too many people to know it. We don't want anybody to
tip them off. For that reason any surveillance work we generally
keep to ourselves, whether it is these racketeers or a burglar or any-
body. We have a special squad doing that work who are not known
to the public. They are all young fellows.
Mr. EoBiNSON. May I ask how long have these people been under
surveillance ?
Lieutenant Casey. On and off. They are not kept under surveil-
lance steadily. We haven't enough men to do that. We have prob-
ably 50 or 60 that we have to keep watch on, so we just take one or
two at a time and spend 4 or 5 days, and then we have a check made
of their residence to see whether they are in or out of the city, and if
so, we have several contacts there to tell us where they went. We
don't go too far out of the city ourselves.
The Chairman. Who is supposed to own Duke's Bar ?
Lieutenant Casey. I have his name. DeNoia, I believe it is. It is
a similar name, anyway, D-e-N-o-i-a. That is phonetic. I am not
just sure how to spell his name, but it is a name similar to that.
I have his name and can get it for you. I think he just fronts for
it. I think he just has the license and probably somebody else has
the place itself. That place has been visited time and time again, I
believe, by the FBI and some Federal agencies going back as far as
7, 8, or 9 years ago.
The Chairman. These details we will be getting from you from
time to time and if you could send us copies of these pictures we cer-
tainly would appreciate it.
Lieutenant Casey. I will get copies and send them down to you,
surply.
6 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Mr. Robinson, I think we ought to release these
letters to the press and also write the mayor and police commissioner
an appropriate letter and tell them how grateful we are for their offer
of assistance and for assigning Lieutenant Casey with us to act until
the deputy chief inspector returns from his vacation, and that we will
be calling upon these officers who have been designated to give us
information and help from time to time. Give the substance of what
I have said to the press. Lieutenant Casey came down personally to
offer his services and made a brief statement before the committee.
Is that an appropriate statement?
Senator Hunt. Quite appropriate. Would the use of Mr. Casey's
name jeopardize his work? Could you not do the work a little better
if it were not publicized ?
Lieutenant Casey. I think it was pretty well publicized in New
York. About a year ago we got a lot of publicity on the squad
up there working on these fellows. I think most of them know it
anyway.
Senator Hunt. You gentlemen know more about that than I do.
The Chairman. That is a point well made. Would you be spotted
so that they would know you are helping the committee?
Lieutenant Casey. No. They know me by name. I don't think
more than two or three of these fellows know me jDersonally.
The Chairman. All right, thank you, Lieutenant Casey.
(Discussion off the record.)
(The testimony of M. H. Goldschein, special assistant to the Attor-
ney General, Department of Justice, Washington, D. C, is included
in pt. 12 of the hearings of the committee. The hearing was adjourned
at 3 :50 p.m.)
INVESTIGATION OF OKGANIZED CEIME IN INTEKSTATE
COMMEKCE
TUESDAY, AUGUST 15, 1950
United States Senate,
Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Nexo York, N. Y.
executive session
The committee met at 2 : 35 p. m., pursuant to call, in room 513,
United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York City, N. Y.
Present: Kudolph Halley, chief counsel; John F. Elich and Patrick
C. Murray, investigators.
STATEMENT OF ALEXANDER A. SUTHEELAND, SECURITY DIREC-
TOR, WRIGHT AERONAUTICAL CORP. ENGINE PLANT, WOOD-
RIDGE, N. J.
Mr. Halley. You are security director of the Wright Aeronautical
Corp., engine plant, at Wood-Ridge, N. J.?
Mr. Sutherland. That is correct.
Mr. Elich. How long have you been security director there, Mr.
Sutherland?
Mr. Sutherland. Since January of 1948. That is 2 years and 7
months.
Mr. Elich. During that period of time as the security director cer-
tain matters were brought to your attention indicating that certain
employees are active in accepting bets from other employees in the
plant ?
Mr. Sutherland. That is correct.
Mr. Elich. The money that is collected by these individuals goes
where ?
Mr. Sutherland. To the best of my knowledge, across the street
from the Wright plant to an establishment operated by Charles Astore.
Mr. Elich. When you say this is delivered to Charles Astore, you
have a considerable number of guards who work for you who are sta-
tioned at the various entrances and exits ?
Mr. Sutherland. That is correct.
Mr. Elich. Did you ever receive any information that possibly one
of the employees was making a delivery of a package to somebody to
deliver across the street?
Mr. Sutherland. Yes; I did.
Mr. Elich. Do you know what employee that was ?
7
8 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Sutherland. Joseph Mello.
Mr. Elich. Is lie known to be one of the bookmakers in the plant?
Mr. Sutherland. Yes; he is.
In fact, the top bookmaker.
Mr. Elich. When you say the top, do you mean he possibly collects
from other runners?
Mr. Sutherland. That is correct.
Mr. Elich. Then after collecting from the other runners, what
does he do ?
Mr. Sutherland. He wouldn't necessarily take it out nor has he
been within the last, let's say, 60 days. Other employees have been
doing that.
Mr. Elich. Do you have the names of those other employees?
Mr. Sutherland. Yes; I do.
Mr. Elich. Would you be able to name those employees ?
Mr. Sutherland. Yes. One is John C. Hayes.
Mr. Elich. Let me interrupt at this point. When you say that
John C. Hayes has taken out these so-called collections, do you have
some information which indicates that he leaves the plant at specific
times and returns within a period of time ?
Mr. Sutherland, Yes ; I do have.
Mr. Elich. What do you have showing that ?
Mr. Sutherland. A form which we call a gate pass, which an
employee must sign upon leaving the premises at any time during
his working shift other than his normally scheduled lunch period.
Mr. Elich. Have you found that John Hayes leaves the plant quite
frequently during a weekly period?
Mr. Sutherland. I found that over a period of 10 or 12 consecu-
tive days, his departures would be between 1 : 25 and 1 : 30 p. m.
Mr. 'Elicii. In other words, the reason for that probably is that
track time is around 1 : 30 or 2 o'clock at most of the tracks, and the
company pays him for this time ?
Mr. Sutherland. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Elich. Does this pass show the reason wdiy he is leaving the
plant?
Mr. Sutherland. In some instances the comment was made on
there for personal reasons. In other instances there was no comment
on the pass. Understand, that these passes have to be approved by
his supervisor. In other words, the man can't just leave the plant
on the basis of his signature. He has to have his supervisor's approval
on that gate pass.
Mr. Elich. Would you say it is common knowledge among the
supervisors that they know why the person leaves the plant for this
period of time?
Mr. Sutherland. Let me get that question.
Mr. Elich. Would you say that it is common knowledge for the
superfisors to know why some of these employees leave the plant
periodically ?
Mr. Sutherland. I wouldn't say that it was common knowledge, but
I could only believe that over a period of time a supervisor must know
or be well aware of the fact why a man day after day would leave the
plant at about the same time and return perhaps 10 or 12 minutes later.
Mr. Elich. Would you give us the names of the other people who
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9
have been reported to us as being bookmakers within the Wright
Aeronautical plant?
Mr. Sutherland. Yes. Let me refer to my records here.
There is one here, AV. AVilliam Malone, then John McLaughlin. I
have already given you John C. Hayes.
Just so we are clear on this, I don't want to leave the impression
here that I have information that these men actually removed material
from the plant. I am speaking now of men who are active within
departments in the plant going around and picking up.
Mr. Elich. That is right. You might indicate, too, the occupa-
tion that these people perform in the plant for the purpose of show-
ing that the positions they occupy probably give them freedom of
movement.
Mr. Sutherland. All right. Joseph Mello, electric trucker; and
Anthony Altieri, janitor; Joseph McCluskey, Frank Longo, receiving
clerks; I*atrick Mancini, trucker; Murray Glatt, he is an expediter.
Both Mancini and McCluskey are truckers; James Perotti — I don't
have his occupation — Dominick Altieri, engine disassembler; Albert
Proulx, tool maker ; Frank Bonito, tool maker.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a much longer list?
Mr. Sutherland. No. Joseph Kotondo, laborer; C. Chartiore, as-
sembler; George Semento, lathe operator; Kenneth Schwoy, engine
tester ; Stephen Gooch — I don't have his occupation.
Mr. Elich. In addition to the list of names
Mr. Sutherland. May I interrupt?
Mr. Elich. Yes.
Mr. Sutherland. I have one more man who has been observed
leaving the premises.
Mr. Elich. But you don't know whether he is a bookmaker or not ?
Mr. Sutherland. I can only tell you that I have once observed him
leave the plant and go to this establishment across the street : A. J.
Cavaliere. He is an inspector.
Mr. Halley. The establishment across the street is a diner; isn't it?
Mr. Sutherland. No. It is a combination taxi stand and novelty
shop at the moment.
Mr. Halley. Thatisthe wholesale jobbers novelty company ? What
is the name of the novelty shop ?
Mr. Sutherland. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. What other evidence have you that these people were
bookmakers ?
Mr. Sutherland. I have personally not seen transactions take place
in the plant. I haven't seen envelopes or slips or money passed. Any
information which I have here is data which I have received from
confidential sources.
Mr. Halley. Various employees in the plant told you about it ?
Mr. Sutherland. That is right.
Mr. Halley. That is the answer. Wlio do you think is the head
man in all this gambling ?
Mr. Sutherland. Inside the plant, Mello.
Mr. Halley. On the horse track racing?
Mr. Sutherland. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Do they do other kinds of gambling?
68958 — 51— pt. 7 2
10 ORGANIZE.D CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Sutherland. There were reports, which I never confirmed, that
there were baseball pools operating. I checked that recently, and we
couldn't come up with any evidence.
Mr. Halley. What does Altieri have to do with it ?
Mr. Sutherland. Which Altieri is that, Dominick?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Sutherland. He was reported as being a picker-upper in cer-
tain areas in the plant.
Mr. Halley. That is Dominick Altieri ?
Mr. Sutherland. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Have you made attempts to stop it ?
Mr. Sutherland. Yes, we have, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. What have you done ?
Mr. Sutherland. On two occasions. Back in the latter part of
1948, either November or December, I don't have those particular notes
with me — Mr. Schmidt has them — management decided, because of
the unfavorable publicity in the newspapers that we should report
the matter to the prosecutor's office in Hackensack. Mr. Schmidt,
who is industrial relations director, and myself, were assigned to see
Chief Emile Bugnon of Wood-Ridge and tell him what management's
wishes were and he accompanied us to the prosecutor's office in Hack-
ensack. The matter was discussed with Chief Michael Orecchio, of
the prosecutor's staff and arrangements were made by Orecchio to
have Pinkerton furnish an undercover operative in the plant. Be-
fore Pinkerton's man came in I submitted a list of about 15 names
along with photographs to Orecchio and gave him any additional
information I had as to points of pick-up in the plant. The operative
of Pinkerton's was in the plant about a week. Subsequent to his de-
parture my boss and Bugnon were called to Orecchio's office and the
investigator's report was read to us. Following that, I received a call
one day from Chief Orecchio, say, either in January or February of
1949, and at the time he told me that he wanted to contact Schmidt
and couldn't reach him, so he gave me this message. He said that he,
Orecchio, had had Mr. James Gyle, who is acting president of the
union in the plant at that time, and George Granmore, who is regional
representative of the CIO, in his office and he instructed them to go
back to the Wright plant and to tell their people, that is the way he
put it, to tell their people that they would have to discontinue picking
up bets in the plant. Following that, I continued to compile informa-
tion until about 60 days ago when I again went to my boss and told
him that I had been receiving information from various employees
in the plant that two of my own guards had helped to establish the
fact that certain individuals were leaving the plant at about the same
time every day. They did not know where they were going to. I ob-
served John Hayes leave the premises — do you want the locations ?
Mr. Halley. Try to make it fast at this point. I am just trying to
get the over-all story.
Mr. Sutherland. I saw him leave the plant premises and drive in
his car to Charles Astore's establishment. I saw him get out of the
car. I saw Astore step out. They both walked in an alleyway to the
rear of the building. I could not see what transpired there. I con-
tinued to report and retain as many gate pass records pertinent to
Hayes as I could gather.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE H
Mr. Halley. Couldn't you just refuse to issue gate passes?
Mr. Sutherland. No.
Mr. Halley. Why not ? Couldn't the plant change its rules ?
• Mr. Sutherland. As long as a man comes to the gate and has the
supervisor's name on the pass we couldn't refuse to let him out.
Mr. Halley. Couldn't the supervisor refuse to let him out ?
Mr. Sutherland. Surely.
Mr. Halley. Didn't the management take it up with the supervisor
and say, "No more" ?
Mr. Sutherland. Wliat?
Mr. Halley. Couldn't the management take it up with the super-
visor ?
Mr. Sutherland. The reason the management didn't take this par-
ticular case up that I am relating of 60 days ago was because we were
asked by Mr. Stammler's office not to take any action so that they
could continue their investigation on the outside in anticipation of
getting to some of the bigger individuals.
Mr. Halley. Did they finally come to a conclus'ion ?
Mr. Sutherland. No. As far as I know — Mr. Schmidt can answer
that better than I can, but to my knowledge it is still an active case
as far as Attorney General Parsons' office is concerned.
Mr. Elich. Approximately how many runners do you think there
are at the plant ?
Mr. Sutherland. Of my own knowledge only the names that I have
given to you ?
Mr. Elich. How big is the Wright Aeronautical plant ? How many
employees do you have?
Mr. Sutherland. As this particular time about 8,000.
Mr. Elich. Have you received any letters from any business people
over in that vicinity complaining that employees were unable to pay
their bills or to take care of their families on account of losing their
money ?
Mr. Sutherland. I have not.
Mr. Elich. Do you have any idea as to how much money each one
of these runners picks up a day ?
Mr. Sutherland. Might I say something here ? The only call that
I ever had in connection with complaints of men losing their week's
wages in the plant would be perhaps a year and a half ago when Chief
Vander Valk Ryan spoke to me on the phone and said, "Al, I had a
physician in town report to me that the wife of an employee in the
Wright plant could not pay her doctor's bill because her husband was
losing his wages gambling."
Mr. Halley. Is it the official position of the company that the
gambling interferes with production?
Mr. Sutherland. Definitely.
Mr. Halley. Why?
Mr. Sutherland. Why? The men who are running around pick-
ing up bets are losing time. They are annoying other employees at
their various occupations. We would consider it detrimental to pro-
duction.
Mr. Halley. Do you think it takes the men's minds off their work ?
Mr. Sutherland. Oh, I would think so.
Mr. Halley. Is that the official view of the company?
12 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Sutherland. Is that the official view of the ;ompany ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Sutherland. I don't think, Mr. Halley, that I would be quite
in position to say that is the official view. I am not an official of the.
company in that sense.
Mr. Halley. I know, but have you been informed that it is ?
Mr. Sutherland. Naturally that would be management's conclu-
sion on it. They are against it. We have notices at vantage points
in the plant that gambling in any form is prohibited. We give each
employee a rule book that tells them that gambling is prohibited.
Mr. Halley. Are there other questions ?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Halley. What is your name ?
Mr. ToscANO. James C. Toscano, Jr. .
Mr. Halley. Do you represent Mr. McLaughlin, is that it ?
Mr. ToscANO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. I understand you represent some of the other wit-
nesses who are here. *
Mr. Toscano. Yes, sir. I represent four all told.
Mr. Halley. Who is paying your fee on this, the individuals who
are witnesses ?
Mr. ToscANO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You represent McLaughlin, is that right ?
Mr. Toscano. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Malone?
Mr. ToscANO. Mr. Malone.
Mr. Halley. Astore ?
Mr. ToscANO. Astore and Mr. Mello.
Mr. Halley. I don't believe we can allow you to stay here with all
the witnesses.
Mr. Toscano. I asked Mr. Elich and he says-
Mr. Halley. When a man represents one witness, but we won't let
one counsel sit here and represent everybody.
Mr. Toscano. That is up to you gentlemen.
Mr. Halley. I am sorry, that is an impossibility. You can pick
any one of them.
Mr. Toscano. All right.
(Mr. Toscano left the room.)
Mr. Elich. This is Mr. John McLaughlin.
STATEMENT OF JOHN McLAUGHLIN, LINDY LAKE, N. J.
Mr. Halley. Mr. McLaughlin, I am the counsel to the Senate Com-
mittee Investigating Interstate Crime, We are looking into a charge
(liat there has been a considerable amount of bookmaking at the
Wright Aeronautical plant at which you work. This is not a com-
mittee hearing and you will not be put under oath, but we want you to
cooperate, if you will, by answering questions and answering them
honestly. You are entitled to be represented by counsel and if you
want to exercise that privilege you may.
Mr. ]\IcLaughlin. We all had the same counsel.
Mr. Halley. That is something I will not permit. If you want
somebody else, you may have him or if he wants to pick you as the
one he will represent, that is all right.
ORGANIZEID CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 13
Mr. McLaughlix. Let him pick who he Avants. It doesn't matter
to me.
]\Ir. Halley. Wliat is your address, Mr. McLaughlin ?
Mr. McLaughlin. The address that the subpena was served at?
Mr. Halley. Your home address.
Mr. McLaughlin. Lindy Lake, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your position at the Wright Aeronautical
plant ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Inspector.
Mr. Halley. In what department ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Inspection department. I guess you could call
it vendor's inspection.
Mr. Halley. On the final assembly ?
Mr. McLaughlin. No. Small parts inspection. We inspect small
purchase parts.
Mr. Halley. You were served with a subpena, w^ere you not, Mr^
McLaughlin, by Mr. Elich ?
Mr. McLaughlin. That is right.
Mr. Halley. At that time I believe you told him that you had been
accepting bets at the Wright plant for a number of years ?
Mr. McLauglin. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is that the fact?
Mr. McLaughlin. I guess; yes.
Mr. Halley. How much in bets do you pick up on the average day ?
Mr. McLaughlin. The weekly average would be better. The weekly
average may be $100 or $120.
Mr. Halley. Total for the week?
Mr. McLaugpilin. Yes.
Mr. Halley. I thought you told Mr. Elich it was about that per
day.
Mr. McLaughlin. No. I misunderstood him. I thought he meant
for the week. You can't get around too much. You have to stay with
your own certain department.
Mr. Halley. What do you do with the money you pick up ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Most of it I keep myself.
Mr. Halley. Do you ever pass it over to Charles Astore?
JSIr. McLaughlin. No.
Jklr. Halley. You told Mr. Elich that you did.
Mr. McLaughlin. No. I have never given Charlie any money.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Elich is sitting right here.
Mr. McLaughlin. Not for bets, anyway. We paid Charlie for
scratch sheets and other things, cab fares.
Mr. Halley. Who is "we"?
Mr. McLaughlin. Some of the other fellows that I would pick up.
Mr. Halley. Wlio books the bets ?
JNIr. McLaughlin. Each individual fellow.
Mr. Halley. You don't book bets. Let's not be silly.
Mr. McLaughlin. The few small ones that come in; yes.
Mr. Halley. You book them out of your own capital ?
Mr. McLaughlin. I mean they have to be small.
Mr. Halley. You don't book bets, do you ?
Mr. McLaughlin. If you could see the bets
Mr. Halley. Don't you leave the plant regularly to go see Astore?
14 ORGANIZEiD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. McLatjghlix. I don't leave the plant at all outside my regular
■workino: hours.
Mr. Halley. Why did you tell Mr. Elich that the take for you is
about $100 a day ; that you turn it over either directly or indirectly to
Astore for various runners ?
Mr. JNIcLaughlin. None of us turn it over to Charlie that I know of.
Mr. Hallet. Wlio did you turn it over to?
Mr. McLaughlin. I keep most of it myself. Like I say, any of the
large bets at times there would be fellows at the back gate that we
could turn them over to and take them away.
Mr. Halley. Who would be at the back gate ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Well, I knew a fellow as Jula — I don't know
his name. Sometimes a fellow by the name of Mac would come.
Mr. Halley. Where did you meet them ?
Mr. McLaughlin. At the back gate or the front gate, wherever it
was convenient for them.
Mr. Halley. Where did you first get to know them ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Through a couple of fellows in the shop.
Mr. Halley. For whom ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Joe.
Mr. Halley. Joe who ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Joe Mello.
Mr. Halley. He introduced you to these people ?
Mr. McLaughlin. There was no introduction at all. Different
fellows that were picking up just said, if you wanted to take bigger
bets out, he would be at the back gate whenever you wanted him. Give
him a call any afternoon.
Mr. Halley. When would he come back to pay off if there was a
payoff?
Mr. McLaughlin. The next day.
Mr. Halley. And you would meet him at the back gate?
Mr. McLaughlin. That is right.
Mr. Halley. At what time?
Mr. McLaughlin. Generally after dinner, anywhere from a quar-
ter to 1 or 1 o'clock to 1 :30.
Mr. Halley. Any other questions ?
Mr. Elich. In other words, who gives you a scratch sheet that you
operate with yours?
Mr. McLaughlin. If we want scratch sheets we call Charlie up and
Charlie would get the scratch sheets.
Mr. Elich. Charlie Astore?
Mr. McLaughlin. That is right.
Mr. Elich. How many scratch sheets does he give you for distri-
bution 'to the men who are going to play with you ?
Mr. McLaughlin. We have to buy the scratch sheets.
Mr. Elich. I understand, but how many do you buy from him?
Mr, McLaughlin. Two or three. There are not that many fellows
around.
Mr. Elich. Then you go around and pass those out. Who is it that
actually gives you the scratch sheets — Charlie?
]\Ir. McLaughlin. We go up to the back gate and get them or the
front gate or sometimes I go out on my lunch hour and get them.
Mr. Elich. In other words, the man that you turn over the bets
that you don't intend to hold on to is the man who comes around to
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15
pay you off in the morning, at that time also delivers the scratch sheet
to you ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Generallj^ he doesn't have the scratch sheets.
Charlie sometimes came over with them or we went over to Charlie's.
Mr. Elich. If this man that you met out at the gate comes up there,
does he come at a regular time every day ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Not every day.
Mr. Elich. Does he come up there on foot?
Mr. McLaughlin. No. He always has a car.
Mr. Elich. He drives a car.
Mr. McLaughlin. Yes, sir.
Mr. Elich. Are you the only ones who go out to meet him to get
the payoff ?
Mr. McLaughlin. No.
Mr. Elich. How many others go out there with you ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Generally — I was going to say — offliand I might
be the only one, me or whoever else had a bet coming up. Everybody
wouldn't be there.
Mr. Elich. Would you say that most of the fellows lose their bets,
then?
Mr. McLaughlin. The ones I turned over I should say the majority.
Mr. Elich. What percent do you get of the money that you turn
over to the outside?
Mr. McLaughlin. Nothing on that.
Mr. Elich. Nothing. Why do you do it ?
Mr. McLaughlin. If the bets hit, you are out of luck.
Mr. Elich. What would you call a large bet ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Anything over a dollar.
Mr. Elich. Anything over a dollar you turn over to them?
Mr. McLaughlin. Yes.
Mr. Elich. What is the average bet that is made ?
Mr. McLaughlin. What do you mean, the fellows in the shop ?
Mr. Elich. Yes.
Mr. McLaughlin. Most of them are 50-cent bets.
Mr. Elich. Is it all on horses ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Mine is ; yes.
Mr. Elich. Do any of the supervisors bet with you ?
Mr. McLaughlin. No.
Mr. Elich. Do the supervisors have knowledge that you are accept-
ing those bets ?
Mr. McLaughlin. It is a funny question. Offhand they have
never said anything to me like that.
Mr. Elich. Do the men who are working in the shop open their
scratch sheets in front of supervision ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Not that I know of ; no.
Mr. Elich. Do you have any radios in the plant ?
Mr. McLaughlin. No.
Mr. Elich. Then you do not know what the results are in the
afternoon ?
jNIr. McLaughlin. No ; not unless somebody comes in on the second
shift.
Mr. Elich. Do you ever call out to get the results ?
Mr. McLaughlin. No.
16 ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Elich. There is no way for you to fjet the results?
Mr, JNIcLaughlin. No.
Mr. Elich. You do not handle any baseball tickets ?
Mr. McLaughlin. No.
Mr. Elich. Do you handle any lottery tickets?
]Mr. INIcLaughlin. No.
Mr. Elich. About what percentage do you find between the play
and the win ? If you take in, as you have stated to me you took in,
$100 a day — we will let that go for the time being — if you take in $120
a week, approximately what percentage of that is usually returned to
the employees in winning bets ?
Mr. McLaughlin. Maybe 75 percent I guess.
Mr. Elich. Seventy-five percent losers. In other words, out of $120
for the week you figure you are making yourself around $75 to $90
a week ?
Mr. McLaughlin. No. I wouldn't make that much a week, if 75
percent of the bets hit. I couldn't make that much.
Mr. Elich. Seventy -five percent of the bets do hit?
Mr. McLaughlin. I would say an average, yes.
Mr. Elich. You are not under oath today, Mr. McLaughlin.
Mr. McLaughlin. That is right.
Mr. Elich. I think possibly you might be called a little later on. I
know a little bit about plant betting. I know something about the
plants and I know something that is in this plant, and I don't believe
that you are being truthful with this committee. That is all I have
to say.
Mr. Hallet. I will add this : You made one statement to Mr. Elich
a few days ago and others did too. I don't know what they are going
to say. But now you all come in with the same lawyer, and what has
happened is quite apparent to me. You are going to be called back
and put under oath. I don't know that bookmaking in a plant is a
serious offense, if indeed it is considered any offense. That I don't
know, but I do know that giving false testimony under oath before a
Senate committee is a felony ancl I would advise you to consider care-
fully the testimony you are going to give. We are not interested in
the bookmaking aspect of this as much as in the fact that it is a war
plant, and the question of whether or not it should be stopped as being
a good or bad thing. We are here to get the facts. I strongly advise
you to consider carefully whether your testimony under oath is going
to be honest or not. That will be all now.
STATEMENT OF JOSEPH MELLO, EAIRLAWN, N. J.
Mr. Hallet. Mr. INIello, I am asking questions on behalf of the
Senate Crime Investigating Committee and we are interested in book-
making in the Wright plant because it is a war plant. We understand
that Mr. Elich here served a subpena on you a few days ago.
Mr. Mello. That is true.
Mr. Hallet. You are here pursuant to that subpena.
Mr. Mello. That is right.
Mr. Hallet. What is your address ?
Mr. Mello. 13-26 Orchard Street, Fairlawn, N. J.
Mr. Hallet. What is your job at the plant?
Mr. Mello. I am a power trucker.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 17
Mr. Halley. How long have you worked there ?
Mr. Mello. Eleven years.
Mr. Hallet. How long have you been making book there?
Mr. Mello. Well, it was a short time after I came back from the
service, maybe it was about a year and a half after I came back from
the service.
Mr. Hallet. How did you get started ?
Mr. Mello. One of the fellows who was picking up was leaving and
he asked me if I wanted to take it. I didn't know the first thing
about it, but I figured if I could make a dollar, I would try it.
Mr. Halley. How did it work 'I
Mr. Mello. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Halley. How did it work ?
Mr. Mello. Well, right around the plant I met different people who
wanted to bet and I would take their bets.
Mr. Halley. Where did you get the information, the scratch sheets
and things ?
Mr. Mello. We got the scratch sheets from Charlie.
Mr. Halley. Charlie who ?
Mr. Mello. Astore.
Mr. Halley. What did you do with the bet he took?
Mr. Mello. We took the bets.
Mr. Halley. Who did you turn the money over to? Who booked
them ?
Mr. Mello. We did.
Mr. Halley. You booked them yourself ?
Mr. Mello. That is right.
Mr. Halley. That is not what you told Mr. Elich the other day.
Mr. Mello. The other day when Mr. Elich came I was very much
disturbed, I think, a little on the nervous side like I am right now.
Mr. Halley. You ought to be nervous because you are not telling
the truth.
Mr. Mello. I am telling the truth.
Mr. Halley. You come here with Charlie Astore and with Malone
and McLaughlin, and you all have the same lawyer.
Mr. Mello. We all got together.
Mr. Halley. You talked it all over, didn't you ?
Mr. Mello. No ; not at all.
Mr. Halley. Would it be right to say you all have the same story
now and have decided to stick to a story ?
Mr. Mello. No ; it is not a story. It is the truth.
Mr. Halley. Do you keep all your bets ?
Mr. Mello. No. We give the bigger ones away.
Mr. Halley. Whom did you give the bigger ones to ?
Mr. Mello. A fellow by the name of Jula.
Mr. Halley. What is his full name ?
Mr. Mello. I don't know anything only Jula.
Mr. Halley. How did he get there for you to know him ?
Mr. ]\Iello. Through Charlie Astore.
Mr. Halley. Does Jula work for Charlie ?
Mr. Mello. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. How do you get your scratch sheets from Charlie ?
Mr. Mello. At the gate or go out and get them.
18 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN ES'TERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. Where did you get them ?
Mr. Mello. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Halley. Where did you go for them ?
Mr. Mello. Either out of the plant or at the gate.
Mr. Hallet. Would you meet Charlie there ?
Mr. Mello. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Himself?
Mr. Mello. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And he would give you scratch sheets ?
Mr. Mello. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did he ever book any of the big bets ?
Mr. Mello. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. Did you pay him for the scratch sheets ?
Mr. Mello. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How much ?
Mr. Mello. Twenty-five cents apiece.
Mr. Halley. How many a day did you buy ?
Mr. Mello. Three or four or five.
Mr. Halley. How many runners are there at the plant taking bets ?
Mr. Mello. That is a hard question to answer, sir.
Mr. Halley. What is your best guess ?
Mr. Mello. On the three shifts ?
Mr. Halley. Let's take your own shift, wliich shift are you on ?
Mr. Mello. The first. There are quite a few.
Mr. Halley. Over ten?
Mr. Mello. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. Over 50?
Mr. Mello. Yes, I would say there are over 50.
Mr. Halley. Are there over a hundred ?
Mr. Mello. Numerous people picking up all kinds of bets, baseball,
numbers, horses.
Mr. Halley. Did all the fellows who took horse bets work more or
less together ?
Mr. Mello. We would interchange bets with one another, but as far
as finances were concerned we all worked on our own.
Mr. Halley. Did you all buy scratch sheets from Charlie Astore?
Mr. Mello. I don't know if they all did. I know I did.
Mr. Halley. You know you are not under oath now, but you will
be under oath when the committee convenes here. I suppose book-
making, I am not sure but in New Jersey I think bookmaking is not
a very serious offense.
Mr. Mello. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Petty bookmaking, I don't know if they bother with
it at all
Mr. Mello. I haven't booked in that plant in the last 5 or 6 months.
Mr. Halley. But testifying falsely under oath, of course, is perjury
and I hope you understand that.
Mr. Mello. I do.
Mr. Halley. Because we are going to bring you back and put you
under oath and get the facts. We expect to get them at that time.
Is there anything you would like to say now about that ?
IVIr. Mello. No.
Mr. Halley. You do admit that you told Mr. Elich the other da,y
that you were booking the bets and taking the money to Charlie
Astore ?
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE ]9
Mr. Mello. No. He asked me if I gave Charlie money, and I told
him "Yes."
Mr. Halley. What do you mean, any money?
Mr. Mello. On the scratch sheets.
Mr. Halley. He asked yon if you booked your daily take.
Mr. Mello. I am sorry I didn't understand it that way.
Mr. Halley. There was no doubt about it. There is nothing about
scratch sheets at all.
Mr. Mello. That is the impression I got.
Mr. Halley. What is your average daily take?
Mr. Mello. I average from $75 to $100 a week ; $125 a week.
Mr. Halley, Of course, you told Mr. Elich the other day that it
was $175 a day. Do you remember that?
Mr. Mello. No ; I don't. I don't remember it. I was in a very bad
state of nervousness the other night. I really was.
Mr. Halley. What were you nervous about ?
Mr. Mello. I don't know. I just came back from my vacation and
to be confronted with something like that it really upset me. I haven't
been bothering with it. •
Mr. Halley. Is it possible you told him $175 a day ?
Mr. Mello. It could be possible. I am not saying it isn't, but it
isn't true.
Mr. Halley. You told him that it was given to various runners who
took it across the street to Astore's, didn't you ?
Mr. Mello. I told him that? I don't think so.
Mr. Halley. He says you did. He made a note of it.
Mr. Mello. I don't think so, Mr. Elich.
Mr. Elich. We have another witness here; there were two of us
there at the time, Mr. Pat Murray and myself at the time of the inter-
view. It was a very short interview and I asked you approximately
how much you took in a day and you indicated it was $175. I asked
you to whom did you turn it over, and you said to various runners. I
asked you what the various runners did with it and you indicated they
took it across the street. Then I asked you if you meant Charlie
Astore and you nodded your head that that was right. Isn't that
about the total sum of the interview ?
Mr. ]\Iello. Of what I am not sure.
Mr. Halley. Is that much true ? Was that said ?
Mr. Mello. Wliat is that, sir?
Mr. Halley. What he just said.
Mr. Mello. About the $175 ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Mello. I wouldn't know, honestly.
Mr. Elich. I ajso asked you if you didn't think there would be
probably 200 runners, if that would be a fair number, and you indi-
cated that would be about right.
Mr. Mello. It is hard to say how many there were offhand.
Mr. Elich. We were guessing.
Mr. Mello. On the three shifts anyway. You can go to almost
anyone, and I guess they would take any kind of a bet.
Mr. Halley. You all got together and talked this over, of course?
Mr. Mello. No, we didn't. The first time I saw these men was this
morning.
20 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. How did you happen to hire your lawyer ?
Mr. Mello. Pardon?
Mr. Hallet. How did you happen to hire your lawyer?
Mr. Mello. I called Mr. Astore last night about a lawyer. He said
he had ijotten one for us.
Mr. Halley. Why did you ask Mr. Astore to get a lawyer ?
Mr. Mello. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Hallet. Why would you ask Astore to get you a lawyer ?
Mr. Mello. I figured he had better contacts than I did.
Mr. Hallet. Why?
Mr. Mello. As far as lawyers were concerned.
Mr. Hallet. Why would he have better contacts, because he was a
bookmaker ?
Mr. Mello. Not that I know of.
Mr. Hallet. Don't you have any knowledge as to whether Astore
is a bookmaker ?
Mr. Mello. No ; I don't.
Mr. Hallet. Have you never known Astore to take a bet on a horse
race ?
Mr. Mello. Do I know of him taking a bet? No, I don't.
Mr. Hallet. You have never heard of him taking a bet?
Mr. Mello. No, I didn't.
Mr. Hallet. You never saw him?
Mr. Mello. No, I never did.
Mr. Hallet. Are you going to stand on that testimony ?
Mr. Mello. Certainly I am.
Mr. Hallet. I would advise you to think it over very carefully.
That will be all right now. Keep yourself available. We are going
to call you again on this same subpena. We are simply adjourning
it. Thank you for coming in.
STATEMENT OF CHARLES ASTORE, LODI, N. J., ACCOMPANIED BY
JAMES V. TOSCANO, JR., ATTORNEY
Mr. ToscANO. I decided to represent Mr. Astore. Is that all right §
Mr. Hallet. Confining it to one client?
Mr. ToscANO. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. What is your full name?
Mr. Astore. Charles Astore.
Mr. Hallet. What is your address ?
Mr. Astore. My home address ?
Mr. Hallet. Yes.
Mr. x\sT0RE. 395 Westerville Place, Lodi, N. J.
Mr. Hallet. What is your business?
Mr. Astore. I am in the cab business and I own a tavern.
Mr. Hallet. Where is your tavern ?
Mr. Astore. 6 Charles Street, Lodi.
Mr. Hallet. Where is your taxi business located?
Mr. Astore. 11 Terhune Avenue.
Mr. Hallet. Lodi, N. J.?
Mr. Astore. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. Is that located close to the Wright Aeronautical plant?
Mr. Astore. On the Lodi side.
Mr. Hallet. Have you ever been arrested ?
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21
Mr. AsTORE. About 8 years ago I had a little argument in the tavern
and I was arrested for it.
Mr. Hallet. Were you convicted?
Mr. AsTORE. I paid $25 for disorderly.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested on any other occasion ?
Mr. AsTORE. At one time I was arrested, my brother-in-law was on
trial and I walked into a place and they thought I went there to bother
a witness, but I didn't even know the witness was there. But it was
just dropped afterwards. They held me and dropped it.
Mr. Hallet. What was your brother-in-law on trial for?
Mr. A STORE. Robbery in Pennsylvania.
Mr. Hallet. What is his name?
Mr. AsTORE. Ralph Freeko.
Mr. Hallet. Do you publish scratch sheets?
Mr. AsTORE. No; I buy them.
Mr. Hallet. Who do you buy them from ?
Mr. AsTORE. A confectionary store on Main Avenue, Passaic.
Mr. Hallet. What do you need them for?
Mr. AsTORE. Sometimes different places I get them for them, and
sometimes they call me up and tell me to get some for them, and I
pick them up. I send a cab driver or I go.
Mr. Hallet. Why do you handle those scratch sheets? What is
in it for you?
jMr. AsTORE. I make daily trips to race tracks with the cabs, I have
special rates, so I buy a dozen scratch sheets. The fellows I know,
they use them on their way to the track. I make trips to the ball
games.
Mr. Hallet. How long have you known John McLaughlin ?
Mr. AsTORE. Well, I would say a couple of years. I am not sure.
Mr. Hallet. When did you meet him ?
Mr. AsTORE. When did I meet him ? When he went to work in the
plant I worked in the plant also.
Mr. Hallet. What plant?
Mr. AsTORE. Wright's.
Mr. Hallet. When did you work at Wright ?
Mr. AsTORE. The last part of the war, near the end of the war.
Mr. Hallet. How long did you work there ?
Mr. AsTORE. About 4 months, approximately 4 months.
Mr. Hallet. What was your job there?
Mr. AsTORE. I worked on the third shift, nights; they called it
ventilation work, fixing ventilators.
Mr. Hallet. When did you first meet Wiley Malone ?
Mr. AsTORE. During that time, about that time.
Mr. Hallet. Did he also work in the plant at that time ?
Mr. AsTORE. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. When did you first meet Joseph Mello ?
Mr. Astore. I would say a couple of years ago.
Mr. Hallet. How did you happen to meet Mello ?
Mr. Astore. I had a lot of fellows come down in the cab office hang-
ing around, and they would play cards, and we used to have maybe
a card game on week ends, a little pinochle, maybe a little poker and I
have a parking lot there, you see. He parks his car in my lot. I have
a parking lot where they park cars. That is around the property
where the cab company is.
22 ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Do you do any business with them ?
Mr. AsTORE. With what?
Mr. Halley. With Mello or Malone or McLaughlin ?
Mr. AsTORE. Tliey park their car there. As I said, I have taken them
to the race track, and they have used the cab. They come around and
play cards like everybody else. They hang around there.
Mr. Halley. Did you know that they make book in the plant ?
Mr. AsTORE. Oh, yes, I know — I don't know who makes book, but I
know that book was being made in the plant.
Mr. Halley. How do you know that?
Mr. AsTORE. By hearsay, and I worked in the plant and I saw it.
Mr. Halley. Did you know that Malone was making book in the
plant?
Mr. AsTORE. He led me to believe that he used to every now and
then. That is what I was led to believe.
Mr. Halley. In fact, you knew that is what they wanted the scratch
sheets for, isn't that right ?
Mr. AsTORE. That is probably what they wanted them for. Other
fellows used to get them too ; not only them. Maybe one fellow would
come out and I would bring them to the gate.
Mr. Halley. You would walk over to the gate and hand them the
scratch sheet ?
Mr. AsTORE. No. Sometimes one side of the building, sometimes
another side of the building, wherever they could come out.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever made book ?
Mr. AsTORE. No.
Mr. Halley. Never?
Mr. AsTORE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any part of it ?
Mr. AsTORE. If you want to say, a couple of years ago I didn't make
book, but some fellow used to give me some bets and I used to give
them to a fellow by the name of Jimmie who used to work with some
company doing some repair work. That was a couple of years ago.
He used to give me a few dollars for going to that trouble.
Mr. Halley. What part did you do ? Wliat trouble did you take ?
Mr. AsTORE. I just gave him the bets that anybody else would give
me. I gave them to him.
Mr. Halley. Who would give you the bets ?
Mr. AsTORE. Anybody.
Mr. Halley. People from the plant you mean ?
Mr. AsTORE. Some would ask me if I could get a bet in for them,
and I said I would give it to this fellow Jimmie.
Mr. Halley. How recently have you done that ?
Mr. AsTORE. Quite a while.
Mr. Halley. A year ?
Mr. AsTORE. I would say more than that, because I don't stay there
any more around the cab office. I go there in the morning for a while.
Then I go to the tavern and I stay there all afternoon. About noon-
time I go to the tavern. I have boys who stay down at the cab office,
the drivers.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever helped make bets for McLaughlin to
help him out, passing it over to Jimmie ?
Mr. AsTORE. That was before. When Jimmie was working there I
didn't know him. He worked for a different company. This com-
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 23
pany did repair work for the company, an outside contractor. He
used to pick up all the bets.
Mr. Hallet. You say you never made book yourself?
Mr. AsTORE. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever accept horse bets ?
Mr. AsTORE. Just in that way, where I took it and then gave it to
this fellow.
Mr. Halley. What is this fellow's name, Jimmie what?
Mr. AsTORE. I just knew him by Jimmie, and he worked for this
company.
Mr. Halley. For what company ?
Mr. Astore. Mahoney Troast Co.
Mr. Halley. Wliat business are they in ?
Mr. AsTORE. Construction.
Mr. Halley. How do you spell "Troast"?
Mr. AsTORE. T-r-o-a-s-t.
Mr. Halley. You pick up the bets an turn them over ?
Mr. AsTORE. They would give them to me to give to him.
Mr. Halley. To give to whom ?
Mr. AsTORE. To give to Jimmie.
Mr. Halley. Wlio would give you these bets, people from the
plant?
Mr. AsTORE. Different individuals, yes.
Mr. Halley. How long ago was that?
Mr. AsTORE. That company left a little over 3 years ago. They
left after the war, right after the war. I don't remember exactly
because there was no reason for me to try to remember it.
Mr. Halley. Are you going to state that within the last year you
haven't accepted any bets on horses ?
Mr. AsTORE. I didn't book any bets.
Mr. Halley. Did you accept them and pass them on to others ?
Mr. AsTORE. If you would ask me — I want to clear myself. If you
ask me to give something to him and pass it through my hands, I
wouldn't call that taking any bets.
Mr. Halley. Did you do that? Did you take bets and pass them
on to somebody else ?
Mr. AsTORE. No ; I did not.
Mr. Halley. You didn't do that ?
Mr. AsTORE. I didn't take any bets.
Mr. Halley. Did you take money from somebody to give to some-
body else within the last year ?
Mr. AsTORE. Well, for some other reasons.
Mr. Halley. For horse bets ?
Mr. AsTORE. I probably have taken money and given it to someone
to pay someone. I probably have, I am not sure.
Mr. Halley. Have you taken money from anybody at the Wright
plant to give to somebody else ?
Mr. Astore. I do everything down there.
Mr. Halley. No ; I mean take money to place on horse bets.
Mr. AsTORE. I can handle money. I cash checks. As I say, we go
to the race track and some fellows borrow money from me. Some-
times being to the track together. I take them to the track. Money
is handled. In my parking lot I handle money. Some fellow used
to pass by there and pick up bets. Whether he picked them up, I
24 ORGANIZEID CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
don't pick them up. He used to take them. If they gave any bets
to him I don't know anything about that.
Mr. Hallet. Did he pick them up at your place ?
Mr. AsTORE. No; not in my place. 'He probably hung around the
street. There is more than one side to the plant. I am on the side of
the plant. There is the front of the plant that they can go out and all
that stuff.
Mr. Hallet. Have you any questions ?
Mr. Elich. You say you furnished sheets to these individuals; is
that right?
Mr. AsTORE. Only when they asked me.
Mr. Elich. That is right. How much do you charge for them?
Mr. Astore. Well, if I give a guy a couple of scratch sheets he gives
me a couple of dollars because he pays for the cab fare.
Mr. Elich. I see.
Mr. Astore. I don't go all the time. Sometimes I send my boy over.
Mr. Elich. Either you or your boy or your taxi stand — how many
sheets would you say you furnish to the Wright Aeronautical plant
per day?
Mr. Astore. I would say approximately 20 to 25, but then there are
individuals who come there and buy them from me in the cal? office.
Mr. Elich. The other day in serving the subpena on you I asked
you whether or not the chief of police of Lodi or the chief of police
of AVood-Kidge or the two of them together came to you about 1 year
ago asking you to put a stop to gambling in the Wright aeronautical
plant, and you indicated this was not so. Is that true or false ?
Mr. Astore. What was not so, that he asked me?
Mr. Elich. That what I said to you was not so, that they had never
come to see you about stopping gambling in the Wright plant.
Mr. Astore. Nobody saw me because I have no power to stop it.
Mr. Elich. They didn't come to you and ask you for your assist-
ance?
Mr. AsTOEE. They didn't ask me ; no.
Mr. Elich. Do you know whether or not they asked anybody else?
Mr. Astore. They asked me if there was any gambling going on in
the cab office pertaining to horses, and I said "No." They said, "If
there is, you will cut that out." Of course during the war there was
someone else hanging around there taking bets off the street, and he
laid down the law to him and at the same time told me if there was
any to cut that out. So I don't bother with it.
Mr, Elich. Did you tell me when I served the subpena on you that
during the war certain individuals used to bring out bets to you because
they were unable to go to a bookmaker themselves, and you knew a
party that you could do them a favor and place the bet for them ?
Mr. Astore. Some fellow used to come around, and he used to do
business with them, you see. Sometimes he wasn't there, and they
would hand it to me to give it to him.
Mr. Elich. You also indicated at that time that there were some
bosses and executives who gave you bets, is that right?
Mr. Astore. You say bosses.
Mr. Elich. I mean part of management, supervisors.
Mr. Astore. There were at that time a lot of foremen, during the
war.
Mr. Elich. And a lot of them gave you bets to place for them ?
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 25
Mr. AsTORE. They would say, "Will you give this to this fellow,"
and I would say all right.
Mr. Elich. You would do that for them ?
Mr. AsTORE. Yes.
Mr. Elich. Mr. Halley asked you a while ago whether or not you
accepted any bets or any money from various individuals. This is
along the same line. Have you ever had anybody deliver to you a
package from the Wright aeronautical plant, the contents of which
might not be known to you, a brown package or a small bag ?
Mr. AsTORE. On several occasions people have left stuff in my office,
saying that whenever a fellow comes out for his car to give him the
package. A number of time I knew what was in the package, and a
number of times I did not.
Mr. Elich. Would you say that you knew what was in the package ?
Mr. AsTORE. Some of them were taking different scraps that the
company would ordinarily throw away. They were taking it home.
Sometimes like pieces of wood, special kinds of wood, special kinds
of, say, stainless steel that they used to make rings with and stuff
like that. They used to take it out.
Mr. Elich. Do you know Salvatore Maretti ?
Mr. AsTORE. No.
Mr. Elich. Do you know Willie Moretti ?
Mr. AsTORE. No, sir.
Mr. Elich. You have never talked to either one of them either
by telephone or in person ?
Mr. AsTORE. No.
Mr. EufcH. That is all.
Mr. Halley. Your subpena will be continued for appearance before
the committee and we will let you know when to come.
Mr. AsTORE. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Halley. You are under subpena and you still remain under
subpena.
Mr. AsTORE. Yes.
Mr. Halley. We will let you know when the committee wants to
see you ?
Mr. AsTORE. All right.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF KENNETH SCHMIDT, TEANECK, N. J., INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS MANAGER, WRIGHT AERONAUTICAL CORP., WOOD-
RIDGE, N. J.
Mr. Elich. Your name is Mr. Kenneth Schmidt, S-c-h-m-i-d-t.
Mr. Schmidt. That is right. 470 Sagamore Avenue, Teaneck, N. J.
Mr. Elich. You are the industrial relations director ?
Mr. Schmidt. Industrial relations manager, Wright Aeronautical
Corp., Wood-Ridge, N. J.
Mr. Elich. Would you explain as to what information you might
have which might indicate that there is gambling going on in the
Wright aeronautical plant at Wood-Ridge, N. J. ?
Mr. Schmidt. The only information that I have has come from Mr.
Sutherland, and as a result of that information, in the latter part of
the summer of 1948 Mr. Sutherland and myself went to Chief Bugnon
6S958 — 51— pt. 7 3
26 ORGANIZEiD CRIME IN mTERSTATE COMMERCE
of tlie police. The three of us went over to the prosecutor's office and
1 talked to Prosecutor Winne and then we went into, I think he is the
chief of detectives, Chief, I think, Orecchio. I think he is chief of
county detectives. We went over the situation with him and gave him
the names of some people whom we thought might be making book or
gambling. We were called back, and he suggested that an operative
be put in the plant. He made the arrangements with Pinkerton and
an operative came in there for approximately a week. Upon the com-
pletion of his tour of duty in the plant, Mr. Sutherland, Chief Bugnon,
and myself called over Chief Orecchio's office and parts of a report
were read to us, indicating that some of the people whose names we
had given had acted in a suspicious manner. The report as I remem-
ber — I might say here I was never able to get a copy of the report —
indicated that he had not seen bets being made but there was suspicious
actions.
Toward the middle part of January of 1949, 1 received a letter from
Prosecutor Winne, saying that the charge that Pinkerton was making
was $110.90 and that he would appreciate being reimbursed for that.
He asked that the reimbursement be made in cash rather than check,
and that was done by me personally on March 3, 1949. We continued
to compile information, and approximately 60 days ago I went to Mr.
Stammler who is I believe special attorney general appointed by Mr.
Parsons, the attorney general. I gave him all the information that I
had, answered all the questions that he asked me, and he said that he
would get in touch with me. Approximately a week later one of his
investigators came into my office, which is located so that you could
look out of the window and see the place that Mr. Astore runs across
the street in Lodi. We sat there until I guess it was 3 o'clock and saw
no one whom we recognized coming from the plant who were over
there that day.
About a week later another investigator whom Mr. Stammler had
borrowed from the ABC came in and said that he had been investigat-
ing conditions around the vicinity and indicated that he had found
nothing whatsoever of a suspicious nature.
I subsequently went to Mr. Stammler and indicated to him that we
were not at all satisfied with the action that he was taking and sug-
gested that we were going to call Chief Bugnon and ask him to come
down and arrest the individual whom we thought was carrying on in
the plant. We had quite a lot of discussion about that. Mr. Stamm-
ler indicated that he felt that if that action was taken by us — and mind
you, he did not say that we shouldn't take it — he said it probably would
upset the applecart for the investigation that we were making. He
spoke of some rather well Icnown figures in supposedly gambling
circles. He indicated to me that the place across the street, while to
us it appeared to be a vei-y important place, was in the scheme of things
a relativel,y unimportant place, that the moneys that were placed on
the horses went from there to some other place, and they were in the
process of finding out where.
We talked about getting an operative in, and that night I made that
suggestion that the State of New Jersey Department of Health had
been in and made a survey and.tliat it might be possible to have some-
one come in representing the State department of health. He thought
that that miglit be a pretty good idea. He called me the following
morning and said that he would have difficulty doing that, and, subse-
ORGAXIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 27
quently, I went down there again and at that time he said that he was
going to give us his best man as soon as he was relieved of the assign-
ment he was then Avorking on. Subsequent to that he advised me that
that man could not be released, and the last conversation that I had
with him was that he was working on getting an operative to come
into the plant. Mr. Stammler indicated to me that he thought it would
probably take 60 to 90 days for a man within the plant to get the true
story on what was going on.
The last request that I had from Mr. Stammler was for the list of all
of the past union officers— and by past I mean those who were defeated
in the last election — as well as the list of current union officers, giving
the names, addresses, and age. I have that list. I have not sent it
to him as yet, but it is ready to go.
Mr. Elich. How many people do you believe are engaged in gam-
bling activities in the AVright plant over a 24-hour period in view of
the fact that I underetand you do have three shifts?
Mr. Schmidt. I can't answer that. I don't know.
Mr. Elich. Would you be able even to hazard a guess?
Mr. Schmidt. No.
Mr. Elich. How many people have been reported to you as being
allegedly engaged in gambling?
Mr. Schmidt. By Mr. Sutherland ?
Mr. Elich. From all sources.
Mr. Schmidt. Certainly no more than 20.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Elich. Back on the record now for awhile.
Mr. Schmidt, has the company or management ever discussed the
manner in which the management might proceed against these people
who accept bets in the plant and what the union attitude might be in
the event that individuals are found to be accepting bets?
Mr. Schmidt. Several times I have talked to the then president of
the local 669, and there was no agreement of any kind about this but
the indications were that the union would have no dealings with any-
one w]io was found participating in gambling at the plant.
Mr. Elich. The question arises that the management at this time
apparently does not have anything in writing which would indicate
that there was a meeting of the minds between any one or any part of
any one or all the unions that might be representing employees in
connection with the company.
Mr. Schmidt. There is nothing in writing.
Mr. Elich. You are still under subpena, and in the event w-e want
you again we will call you. I don't think it is necessary to hold onto
you due to the fact that you have made arrangements to go on
vacation, and it is the vacation period. In discussing it with Mr.
Halley, he has indicated that you should be allowed to go and enjoy
yourself.
Mr. Schmidt. The reason that we pursued the course we did was
simply that it was our feeling at all times that if we were to dis-
charge an individual or individuals, it would not stop the source
of gambling, and we have at all times felt that we were under con-
siderable handicap with a drop located immediately across from the
plant. It was for that reason that we asked for assistance from, first^
the local police and then the county police and then the State police.
Mr. Elich. Does the management have anything in writing at this
time wherein they have submitted anything in written form to either
28 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
the chief of police of Lodi, the chief of police of Woocl-Eidge, or
any prosecuting agency, including the State of New Jersey?
Mr. Schmidt. No.
Mr. Elich. Mr. Schmidt, do you feel that any one individual might
be held responsible for all gambling within the plant ?
Mr. Schmidt. No.
Mr. Elich. Where do you feel that that responsibility belongs ?
Mr. Schmidt. With supervision.
Mr. Elich. When you speak of supervision you are talking about
the vast areas throughout the plant which is, generally speaking,
one solid floor wherein supervisors are located in various areas? Is
that right? I want to establish what supervisor you are referring
to, the supervisor down at the milling machine, the annealing shop,
the assembly department, and so forth.
Mr. Schmidt. My answer is all levels of supervision.
Mr. Elich. All supervisors pertaining to the different parts and
departments, then?
Mr. Schmidt. That is right.
Mr. Elich. That is all.
STATEMENT OP EMILE E. BUGNON, CHIEF OF POLICE,
WOOD-RIDGE, N. J.
Mr. Elich. State your name and address.
Mr. BuGNOx. Emile E. Bugnon, 569 Anderson Avenue, Wood-Ridge,
N. J., chief of police. I am in my twenty-fourth year as chief of
police.
Mr. Elich. As the chief of police, the Wright aeronautical plant
comes under your jurisdiction?
Mr. BuGNON. That is right.
Mr. Elich. Have you ever had any complaints from management
that they have a considerable amount of gambling in the Wright
aeronautical plant ?
Mr. BuGNON. Yes, sir ; I have.
Mr. Elich. How many times?
Mr. Bugnon. I have been over there on four occasions.
Mr. Elich. On those occasions whom did you talk to?
Mr. Bugnon. I was called one time by Mr. Sutli,eiiand, who is in
charge of plant protection, who informed me that an individual
by the name of either Astor or Astore was coming over from the other
side of the street over onto company property. He told me he thought
he came from Lodi. I told Mr. Sutherland that I would take care
of that. What did he think he was doing? They thought he was
something to do probably with some gambling or picking up some
bets or something. So I went over to the Lodi police headquarters
and contacted Chief Witte. I told Chief Witte there was an indi-
vidual by the name of Astore or Astor from his town coming over on
to the Wright property and I wanted him warned to stay the hell
away from there. Witte assured me that he would get hold of this
fellow and have him keep off the place, and I checked with Sutherland
later and he didn't go near there.
Then on another occasion I was called back there. Mr. Sutherland
had information that a chap by the name of McLaughlin and a fel-
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 29
low by the name of Mello were acting suspicious picking up envelopes
and talking to fellows either in the washroom or in different parts
of the plant. This fellow Mello had the run of the plant, being that
he operated I think one of those little automobiles that they use for
hauling, those automatic trucks. So I went over there and I said to
Al, "Call these fellows in here, let's get them in here and talk to
them." The union president came in, a fellow by the name of Bam-
barra. I had had experience with Bambarra during a strike we had
there. I had warned him about certain rough stuff that was going
on, stoning of cars and things of that sort. Rocco Bambarra was the
president of the union at that time. We questioned these two fel-
lows, and of course they denied it in pretty strong language. I
called them a couple of G. D. liars. I told them if we had any
more reports of anything like that the ax would fall on them. Bam-
barra promised me that nothing like that would go on any more.
On another occasion I received a call from Mr. Sutherland giving
me the number of a car that had come over on the property and gone
near one of the windows — that would be on the south side of the plant
there — and I told him I would be right over there. On the way over,
going down Passaic Street parked over on the Lodi side in front of
one of the lunch cars was this automobile. The automobile being
in Lodi, I couldn't go over and grab it over there. I could have I
suppose, but I know, it is a courtesy to go to the chief of police in
whose territory the thing is. So I went over there and asked Witte
if he would send over a man to pick up this fellow, which they did.
They brought in this young Italian fellow. I asked him what he
was doing over there. Of course, he was just riding in there. I
said, "Did somebody hand you a package out of the window?" He
said, "I didn't get no package."
I said, "You are a damned liar because you were seen, and several
people saw you. I want to tell you something, you are only a young
chap. If you want to get into some trouble you just try that again."
I heard from Sutherland that that had stopped.
We went, I think it was in December 1948, we had a conference
with the prosecutor, Mr. Schmidt, Chief Onecchio and myself, and
we made arrangements to see if we could get some information out
of there. The prosecutor's office hired I believe Pinkerton. I am not
sure. They had him in there for 3 or 4 days. The prosecutor's office
has that report.
Mr. Elich. How many people do you feel, chief, might be accepting
books in the Wright plant ?
Mr. BuGNON. Well, I couldn't answer that truthfully, John. I tell
you why. I had some experiences in there during the war of course.
I picked up some fellows in there. We had a type-off one day. I
happened to be one of the members of the war price and rationing
board for that territory. Of course it took a lot of time, but I didn't
mind doing it. I had a report from Brown one day — Brown at that
time was in charge of plant protection — that there was a lad in there
selling sugar stamps, shoe stamps, gasoline rationing stamps, and tire
certificates. So we went in the plant there and, of course, you have
to be careful in there. You can't question a fellow and ask him what
the other fellow is doing, because if the union gets it, it is just too bad
for him. We went in there and made this fellow open up his tool box
and sure enough, gasoline stamps were all in an envelope, perfectly
30 ORGAXIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
legitimate stamps. We asked him where he got them. Of course, his
story was that he used to meet a fellow on the side of River Road,
which is between South Hackensack and the river. We parked there
for 6 nights with him waiting for this fellow to come along and sell
him those stamps. Of course, that was a lot of baloney. We never
saw him. If you go in a place, like if I walked in the door there, every-
body in the plant knows I am in there. I truthfully couldn't tell you
how many I think have been picked up. I don't doubt if this gang is
cleaned up, there is a bunch in there ready to take over. That is my
. personal opinion. I may be wrong, but I think I am right.
Mr. EucH. Do you feel Astore is the boy who has been accepting the
bets across the street ?
Mr. BuGNON. That is that Garfield taxi. That is where they have
been going.
Mr. Elich. In other words, the taxi company is a front for it ?
Mr. BuGNON. No. There are taxies at the place.
Mr. Elich. He does run taxies?
Mr. BuGNON. I think they are yellow and black; yes. That is a
peculiar set-up there. I don't know if you noticed it.
Of course your main plant is here
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Elich. All right. Chief, that is all.
STATEMENT OF HENRY WITTE, CHIEF OF POLICE, LODI, N. J.
Mr. Elich. Will you be so kind as to give the reporter your name ?
Mr. WiTTE. Henry Witte.
Mr. Elich. Address ?
Mr. Witte. 80 Hunter Street, Lodi, N. J. _
Mr. Elich. Chief, we are conducting an investigation in regard to
gambling in the Wright Aeronautical plant, and I have developed in-
formation which indicates that probably a Charlie Astore might be
involved or engaged in accepting bets from this plant. Do you have
any information in regard to activities?
Mr. Witte. Not as taking bets. Do you want me to continue ?
Mr. Elich. Yes.
Mr. Witte. At one time we went there, and we got information that
there was some card gambling going on. I went with a captain of
detectives whose name is Carbenetti. We walked in the joint like that.
Later on we got more information that there was supposed to be
betting. We went down there, but we couldn't find anything.
Mr. Elich. When you say "we"
Mr. Witte. Captain Carbenetti and I. Later on Captain Carbe-
netti — this is I will say in the last 4 months — the prosecutor's office of
Bergen County, detective DeLear — I don't know how to spell that
one — and detective Jimmie Milligan and Captain Carbenetti went
there in regard to horse racing. We didn't find anything.
They made another trip there later on about 2 weeks afterward. Cap-
tain Carbenetti and I think DeLear again, and still they couldn't find
anything.
Mr. Elich. Do you feel personally, as chief of police, that he is not
making book at this point?
Mr. Witte. I would say that I tliink that he himself — I don't know.
If he is taking any bets it would be over alongside the plant, if he is,
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31
which I don't know, because where his place is situated it is right
across.
Mr. Elich. That is right.
Mr. WiTTE. Once Chief Bugnon came in and asked me to not go to
Wright pLant in the front, by the front of it. So I got hold of him
and said, "If you go over there and are not working, they are going
to knock you off for being on private property."
But there have been rumors that there have been bets going across
back and forth. There may be.
Mr. Elich. A rumor that packages are picked up through the fence ?
Have you heard about that ?
Mr. WiTTE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Elich. And also that automobiles have driven up and accepted
packages from various employes?
Mr. WiTTE. No ; I didn't get that.
Mr. Elich. We have had that, that it has been passed through the
fence.
Mr. WiTTE. I have heard that, but I never saw it.
Mr. Elich. But that would be outside of your jurisdiction because
it is across the street?
Mr. WiTTE. It is the boundary line.
Mr. Elich. In other words, the street that goes around the plant
where Charlie Astore's place is located, one half of that street is in
Lodi and the other half is in Wood-Ridge?
Mr. WiTTE. That is right. You see by Astore's place there are cars,
a number of them. First of all, there is Astore's place, then there is
a flower shop, then there is a novelty shop, then there is a taxi station.
Next to him is the lunch wagon, a tavern. There is a parking lot there.
Next to tliat is another parking lot and a lunch wagon. Next to that
is another parking lot and a lunch wagon. Cars go in there. People
come out of that main gate across there. Christ, you wouldn't know.
They could take packages out and slip them or talk to somebody right
on my side and give it to them, unless you happened to be there. It is
like everything else, sure they bet. I think they bet, I mean. The
question as you say, is, you must have the evidence.
Mr. Elich. Have you ever received any written notice from the
Wright Aeronautical plant that they had a situation where gambling
existed in their plants ?
Mr. WiTTE. No.
Mr. Elich. You never have ?
Mr. WiTTE. No.
Mr. Elich. That is all, Chief.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM B. MALONE, PATTERSON, N. J.
Mr. Elich. State your full name and address.
Mr. Malone. William B. Malone, 50 Cross Street, Patterson, N. J.
Mr. Elich. You are an employee of the Wright Aeronautical Co. ?
Mr. Malone. That is right.
Mr. Elich. You were served with a subpena by me which indicates
that the committee is looking into alleged gambling in the Wright
Aeronautical plant. Would you explain what knowledge you might
have of any gambling that is going on in that plant ?
Mr. Malone. I haven't got no knowledge of any going on.
32 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Elich. Have you accepted any bets yourself ?
Mr. Malone. No, sir.
Mr. Elich. None whatsoever ?
Mr. Malone. None whatsoever.
Mr. Elich. You have no knowledge of anybody else's accepting
any
Mr. Malone. No.
Mr. Elich. You haven't bet on any horses ?
Mr. Malone. No, sir. I bet on them at the track, where I get some
good odds.
Mr. Elich. What occupation do you have in the Wright Aeronau-
tical plant?
Mr. Malone. I am an inspector.
Mr. Elich. That would be in the inspection department then. Is
that small parts ?
Mr. Malone. Small parts, the manufacturing crib.
Mr. Elich. Have you discussed this matter with anybody before
3^ou came here to testify today since you were served with the subpena ?
Mr. Malone. I haven't.
Mr. Elich. Not with any one ?
Mr. Malone. No.
Mr. Elich, Did you talk with Willie Astore about it ?
Mr. Malone. Beg your pardon ?
Mr. Elich. Did you talk with Charlie Astore about it?
Mr. Malone. No.
Mr. Elich. Did you talk to John McLaughlin about it?
Mr. Malone. No.
Mr. Elich. To Joseph Mello?
Mr. Malone. No.
Mr. Elich. Did you talk to this attorney who was supposed to
represent you today ?
Mr. Malone. I told him, I said I have a subpena, but I just want
to find out why I got it and why my name was mentioned.
Mr. Elich. Did you hire him to represent you?
Mr. Malone. The four of us were supposed to chip in figuring we
would save money.
Mr. Elich. Whose idea was it to chip in and hire him ?
Mr. Malone, All of us. We figured we couldn't afford one apiece.
Mr. Elich. You all met at once and said
Mr. Malone. That is right, let's all chip in $10 or $15 apiece.
Mr. Elich. You are not under oath today, but we may subpena you
at a later date at which time you will be under oath. Bookmaking is
not a serious offense. However, a person committing perjury before
the committee might turn out to be rather serious. Therefore, you
want to think that over a little bit betweeen now and the time that
you are sworn because there is a little question in my mind as to whether
or not you are telling the truth when you say that you have not been
bookmaking.
Mr. Malone. Me? Oh, no. You can bet all the tea in China on
that.
Mr. Elich, How long have you been an employee of the Wright
Aeronautical plant ?
Mr. Malone. Ten years.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 33
Mr. Elich. You have not accepted any bets during that full 10-year
period ?
Mr. Malone. Oh, yes. The first year I ever worked at Wright's,
the first year I sold a couple of chances at football games ; that is all.
Mr. Elich. That is 10 years ago ?
Mr. Malone. Before I went into the service.
Mr. Elich. Wlien did you go in the service?
Mr. Malone. 1941.
Mr. Elich. When did you come out of the service ?
Mr. Malone. 1943.
Mr. Elich. Since 1943 to this date you can say that you have not
accepted a single bet in regard to horse races, baseball games, or lot-
teries or pools of any kind ?
Mr. Malone. That is right.
Mr. Elich. That is all.
Mr. Malone. Can I go to Florida now ?
Mr. Elich. Take this off the record a minute.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Elich. Let the record show that although a subpena has been
issued, this man has denied that he has accepted any bets of any kind.
There definitely is a question in the mind of the speaker as to whether
or not he is telling the truth. However, due to the fact that he has
sent his wife and family to Florida and is on vacation, it is believed
that he may be called before the committee at the end of his vacation,
which will be 2 weeks from this last Monday.
Mr. Malone. All right. Thank you.
(Wliereupon, at 4 : 30 p. m., the committee adjourned subject to the
call of the chairman.)
investictATion of oeganized ceime in inteestate
commeece
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 11, 1950
United States Senate,
Special Committee To In\^stigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
New York, N. Y.
executive session
The committee met, pursuant to call of the chairman, at 10 : 55 a. m.,
in room 2804, United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York,
N. Y., Senator Estes Kefauver, chairman of the committee, presiding.
Present: Senators KefauA-er and Tobey.
Also present: Rudolph Halley, chief counsel; Boris Kostelanetz,
assistant counsel ; John F. Elich, Patrick Murray, Thomas E. Myers,
and John Murphy, investigators ; Nat K. Perlow, of Senator Kef au-
ver's staff; Nathan Frankel, c. p. a., New York committee staff,
Irving H. Saypol, United States attorney, southern district of New
York.
Judge Robert P. Patterson, chairman, Commission of American
Bar Association to cooperate with Senate Crime Committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Sullivan, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give
the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Sullivan. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN T. SULLIVAN, NEW YORK, N. Y.,
REPRESENTING WILLIAM MORETTI
The Chairman, All right, gentlemen. We will get started.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name, Mr. Sullivan ?
Mr. Sullivan. John T. Sullivan.
Mr. Halley. Whom do you represent?
Mr. Sullivan. William Moretti,
Mr, Halley. Do you have with you a statement from a doctor?
Mr. Sullivan. I do.
Mr. Halley. What is the doctor's full name ?
Mr. Sullivan. The doctor's name is Theodore Morici, 80 Howe
Avenue, Passaic, N. J.
Mr. Halley. Is the statement in affidavit form ?
Mr. Sullivan. The statement is not in affidavit form; however, I
saw the doctor sign it.
35
36 ORG.-VNIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Yes, but is there any reason why the doctor should
not produce an affidavit?
Mr. Sullivan. None whatever.
No, sir. I didn't think it was going to be necessary that the doctor
for the purpose of the hearing before the committee that it be put in
affidavit form.
The Chairman. Wliat is the doctor's name?
Mr. Sullivan. Theodore Morici.
The Chairman. Where is he practicing as a doctor ?
Mr. Sullivan. Passaic, N. J., Senator.
Mr. Halley. Do you also represent Joseph Adonis ?
Mr. Sullivan. No.
Mr. Halley. Or Joe Doto ?
Mr. Sullivan. No.
Mr. Halley. Would you present the letter which you have to the
committee ?
The Chairman. Letter of October 10, 1950 :
This is to certify that Mr. William Moretti is under my care at St. Mary's
Hospital, Passaic, N. J.
He was admitted to the hospital about 1 : 10 a. m. October 9, 1950, with severe
hemorrhage of the nose. I was called to the hospital about 1 a. m. and found
him full of blood in his face, mouth, and clothes. His nose was packed and
admitted.
His blood pressure at that time was nearly 200/100,
It appears to me that the —
P-i-s-t-a
Mr. Sullivan. May I see it, Senator ?
Mr. Halley. Suppose you read it.
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, I will read it.
The Chairman. Begin with the third paragraph.
Mr. Sullivan. Very well.
It appears to me that the epistasis^
apparently a medical term —
was a sign for him to be hospitalized, for if the hemorrhage had not occurred
from his nose, he would have developed a cerebral bleeding which would have
been fatal or cause a hemoplegia.
In my ophiion, I believe that he must rest in bed for at least 1 week to relieve
the congestion and hypertension. He must not have any commitment whatsoever
for his well-being for fear of another occurrence.
Yours truly,
Theodore Morici, M. D.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Sullivan, under ordinary circumstances, as counsel,
I would be prepared to recommend to the committee that they accept
such a statement on its face. However, the committee has just
received a telegram from Dr. Morici, the same doctor, in which he
states that Mrs. Joseph Doto, another of our witnesses, is also his
patient and also unable to testify. In view of the fact that this same
doctor turns up representing both Willie Moretti and Mrs. Adonis,
who is Mrs. Doto, I cannot recommend to the committee that they
accept unsworn statements, and under the circumstances it is my
recommendation that unless Dr. Morici is willing to come in here and
explain just what the situation is to the committee, both witnesses
must be required to appear,
Mr. Sullivan. Well
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 37
Mr. Halley. You may argue that to the committee.
Mr. SuLiJVAN. Yes, may I argue that.
The Chairman. Here is a telegram I have just received from Cliff -
side Park, N. J., to the chairman.
Received your telegram but unable to appear under doctor's orders. My phy-
sician will wire you details.
Mrs. Joseph Doto.
Mr. Sullivan. I of course have no knowledge whatever of such
dual treatment. It could very well be that he was a doctor for both
people. There is no doubt that Moretti is in the hospital bleeding
profusely from the nose. The order of the hospital can show that.
Moretti retained me for the purpose of representing him before this
committee, and he was very, very anxious to come here. He is not
seeking in any way — Moretti was glad to take a subpena and wanted to
come here. Ordinarily in court a certificate such as this would be
accei^ted without an affidavit if this man is a practicing physician, and
the mere fact that he may represent both this other woman and this
man doesn't seem to me to invalidate this certificate.
Mr. Halley. In an attempt to be fair but yet hewing to the line,
the circumstances are such that I think the committee is entitled to
get a detailed explanation from the doctor.
The Chairman. Suppose we have the doctor appear as a witness.
Senator Tobey. Or an alternative, Mr. Chairman, what about hav-
ing a doctor in our behalf go to see whether it is a fake or whether it
is genuine or not and make a report to us. Also what is the reputa-
tion, Mr. Witness, of this man Morici. Is he a doctor that deals in
statements of this sort to benefit certain people under indictment, or
is he a reputable physician ?
The Chairman. The chairman doesn't know Dr. Morici and I don't
know if anyone here does.
Mr. Halley. May I have the benefit of a short conference with the
committee ?
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. Mr. Sullivan, how long does it take to get here
from Passaic ?
Mr. Sullivan. I think he could get here by automobile in an hour,
Senator.
The Chairman. Suppose we subpena Dr. Morici to come in at 2
o'clock this afternoon.
Mr. Halley.
Mr. Sullivan. I will call. I am sure he is a reputable physician
with connections in many hospitals in New Jersey. I know nothing
about him personally, so I can't testify, but I shall call and seek to
get him. I am pretty sure you will get him here.
Mr. Halley. There is no implication that he is not, Mr. Sullivan.
The only point is that the circumstances are such that the committee
must get that explanation from the doctor himself. No inferences
ought to be drawn that he is not or that he is. We just don't know.
Mr. Sullivan. I will call and will report to you as to what my
success is.
The Chairman. Will you advise him that the committee would
like for him to appear at 2 o'clock, and if that isn't satisfactory, then,
some time between 2 and 4 this afternoon.
38 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. Will you report back to the committee ?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes, I will.
The Chairman. While we are on the subject, here is a letter from
Mrs. Doto saying that she is —
Not well enough to come to court today, but when I am able I will let you know.
Please write me whether this is satisfactory to you.
I think we should notify Mrs. Doto that her letter is not satisfac-
tory and the committee wants to see her, unless her doctor furnishes
better evidence of her illness. Will you see that she is notified ?
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. Mr. Silver, will you stand and be sworn ? Do you
solemnly swear the testimony you will give the committee will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothino- but the truth, so help you
God? " ' i ^
Mr. Silver. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY SILVER, NEW YORK N. Y.
Mr, Halley. What is your full name ?
Mr. Silver. Charles Henry Silver.
Mr. Halley. And your address, please?
Mr. Silver. 101 Cooper Street, New York City.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the G. & It. Trading Co. ?
Mr. Silver. Yes; I did. I have some withholding slips I think.
Mr. Halley. You once worked for the G. & E,. Trading Co. ; is that
right?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was that in 1945 ?
Mr. Silver. Yes, sir; 1945.
Mr. Halley. You have brought with you some income tax with-
holding slips?
Mr. Silver. Yes. I brought what I was asked.
Mr. Halley. They were furnished to you ?
Mr. Silver. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Will you turn them over to the committee at this
time ?
Mr. Silver. Yes, sir. These are the ones that I showed the other
gentlemen when they talked to me.
Mr. Halley. How did you first get your job with the G. & R.
Trading Co.?
Mr, Silver. Well, I know some men who are dealers, and in talking
they told me about this place that was going to open. I spoke to them
about going to work in a general way, and then a man by the name of
Goldfine was the man who hired me.
Mr. Halley. This was in 1945 ; is that right ?
Mr. Silver. I guess so. That is my recollection according to those
slips ; that is right.
Mr. Halley. In what capacity did you work?
Mr. Silver. As clerk at a gaming table ?
Mr. Halley. At a gaming table ?
Mr. SiL\T3R, Yes.
Mr. Halley. What kind of gaming table was it ?
Mr. Silver. A crap game.
ORGANIZEJD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 39
Mr. Halley. a crap game ?
Mr. Silver. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. What were your duties as a clerk ?
Mr. Silver. A stick man, box man.
Mr. Halley. A stick man is a man who rakes in the money.
Mr. Silver. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And what is a box man ?
Mr. Silver. A box man is a man who sits at the table and some-
times when he works around the table, he sits, instead of working
dealing, he sits in the middle and kind of looks out, you know, helping
the other man at the table.
Mr. Halley. How many men were working at a table representing
the house ?
Mr. Silver. I should say roughly around six usually, with the
relief men. You know you get off time. You don't work right
through for hours at a time.
Mr. Halley. Perhaps we had better go through the list of dif-
ferent corporations for which you worked, and then we can go back
and pick up the details.
In 1945 it was the G. & R. Trading Co. Who was your boss there,
do you remember ?
Mr. Silver. Well, Goldfine was the man who was in charge of the
help.
Mr. Halley. Goldfine.
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. W^hat was his first name ?
Mr. Silver. Alex Goldfine.
Mr. Halley. What was his particular job there ?
Mr. Silver. Supervisory, I guess, in charge of the tables.
Mr. Halley. Was he an accountant?
Mr. Silver. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Halley. Who took care of the money ?
Mr. Silver. There was an office that the money was in, I imagine,
because — to the best of my knowledge there was an office that the
money was in, but I didn't have anything to do with that, really.
Mr. Halley. Was Tony Guarini connected with the place ?
Mr. Silver. That is the man I believe that I would know as Tony
Greeno. I think it was Tony Greeno. I wouldn't know how you
spelled it.
Mr. Halley. But it is pronounced Greeno?
Mr. Silver. I think that is the same man. That would be the
man around there.
Mr. Halley. Was he the boss, the top man ?
Mr. Silver. He seemed to be the executive around there.
Mr. Halley. He seemed to be the executive.
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence
withholding receipt for the year 1945 to Charles Henry Silver, 101
Cooper Street, showing wages of $2,900. The employer is listed as
Anthony Guarini, G. & R. Trading Co., 109 Roosevelt Avenue, Has-
brouck Heights, N. J.
The Chairman. That will be received and made a part of the
record as exhibit No. 1 to Mr. Silver's testimony.
(Exhibit No. 1 is on file with the committee.)
40 ORGAlSriZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Wlio was Emmanuel Schafer?
Mr. Silver. He was the fellow who was more or less in charge of
help in a way, too. I should say he was on the floor. He gave orders
to the help.
Mr. Halley. Was Jimmy Lynch there ?
Mr. Silver. I believe I have seen liim there.
Mr. Halley. You saw him there ?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did he give ordere from time to time ?
Mr. Silver. Not to me; no. He was more like an office man.
Mr. Halley. More like an office man.
Mr. Silver. I would think so ; yes.
Mr. Halley. But he appeared to be connected with the manage-
ment ?
Mr. Silver. I guess so.
Mr. Halley. Was Joe Doto there in 1945 ?
Mr. Silver. I couldn't swear to that. I may have seen him around
there.
Mr. Hallet. Where did the crap game take place ?
Mr. Silver. This place I think was somewhere close to Paterson,
to the best of my recollection. I am a little confused on some of these
locations. I tried to explain to the gentleman that I spoke to before.
Mr. Halley. We will work through it slowly year by year and
try to work it out. Perhaps it will refresh your recollection about
the locations if we go through these various places. Did you work
at any place in 1946 ?
Mr. Silver. No, I didn't work in Jersey at all in 1946.
Mr. Halley. Did you work in any gambling place anywhere in
1946?
Mr. Silver. Not to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Halley. The withholding statement for 1947 shows wages to
this witness $3,350, and the employers are listed as the following:
James Lynch, Gerald Catena, Joseph Doto, and Salvatore JSIoretti,
doing business as L. & C. Amusement Co., care of Charles Handler.
Is it your recollection that that is where you worked in 1947?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did all these people I just mentioned appear on the
premises and take an interest in it ?
Mr. SIL^^R. No ; that I would not say because that I don't know.
]Mr. Halley. Did you see Lynch there ?
Mr. Silver. I believe I did.
Mr. Halley. Catena?
Mr. Silver. That I don't know. I don't recollect that at all. I may
have.
Mr. Halley. Doto ?
Mr. Silver. I may have seen him, yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Moretti ?
Mr. Silver. I don't know.
INIr. Halley. Who gave you this withholding statement? Where
did you get it?
Mr. Silver. I believe it was mailed to me, to the best of my recol-
lection.
Mr. Halley. In an envelope from the L. & C. Amusement Co. ?
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 41
Mr. Silver. I would assume so, but I don't know that for sure, either.
I don't remember that.
Mr. Halley. How did you get connected with the L. & C. Amuse-
ment Co. after this lapse of a year?
The Chair3ian. Let's let this second withholding slip for 1947 be
made exhibit No. 2 to Mr. Silver's testimony.
(Exhibit No. 2 is on file with the committee.)
Mr. Silver. In more or less the same way that I was employed
originally, just by word of mouth, hearing about the place opening.
May have gotten a phone call. Of that I am not sure. There may
have been sometliing in person.
Mr. Halley. Is it possible that Emmanuel Schaf er called you ?
Mr. Silver. It may have been; yes. I said that before. It may
have been.
Mr. Halley. Who was working there, about the same people who
were working in 1945?
Mr. Silver. Approximately. There is a certain turnover in help
in places of this type. Fellows go to the other cities to work or are
not working or maybe the people they worked for previously don't
want to hire them. Roughly, there were a lot of the same people.
]Mr. Halley. Who was a credit man there, Kitty Klein ?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was he also at most of the places we are talking
about ? Was he at the G. & R. in 1945 ?
Mr. Sil^'er. I believe he was. I wouldn't- say he was in all of them
because I am not sure.
Mr. Halley. But he was at a substantial number ?
Mr. Silver. It is my recollection that he was there.
Mr. Halley. In 1948 you worked, did you not, for the L. & C.
Amusement Co. ?
Mr. Silver. Whatever that says ; I did work there in 1948.
Mr. Halley. I offer in evidence withholding statement for 1948 to
Mr. Silver from the L. & C. Amusement Co., care of Charles Handler,
and the individuals mentioned on it are J. Lynch, G. Catena, J. Doto,
and S. Moretti.
Tlie Chairman. That will be received and made a part of the record
as exhibit No. 3 to Mr. Silver's testimony.
( Exhibit No. 3 is on file with the committee. )
Mr. Halley. Also, in 1948, did you work for the Pal Trading Co. ?
Do you remember that?
Mr. Silver. I only remember it from that. You see, when we go
to work they don't say to us you are going to be working for the Pal
Trading Co., but you just go to work, and then you know who the boss
is, you see.
Mr. Halley. Of course, in all of these places you did the same
general type of work,
Mr. Silver. More or less the same work.
Mr. Halley. You acted as a clerk at a crap game.
Mr, Silver. That is right.
Mr. Halley, Withholding receipt offered in evidence, 1948, to
Charles H. Silver, $1,500, from Pal Trading Co., care of Charles
Handler, the principals are J. Lynch, J. Doto, A. Guarini, et al. I am
reading from the slip.
-51— pt. 7 4
42 ORGAKIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. It will be received as exhibit No. 4.
(Exhibit No. 4 is on file with the committee.)
Mr. Halley. In 1948 there is a withholding statement which I will
offer in evidence for the same witness from the General Trading Co.,
109 Roosevelt Avenne, Hasbronck Heights, N. J.
The Chairman, That will be made a part of the record as exhibit
No. 5.
(Exhibit No. 5 is on file with the committee.)
Mr. Halley. How did you originally go to work in 1945? Had
yon been working for any gambling places prior to that time ?
Mr. Silver. Yes; I did.
Mr. Halley. Where had you originally started working in a gam-
bling place ?
Mr. Sil\'er. I worked at another place in Jersey in 1944.
Mr. Halley. Even prior to that, did you work in Habana ?
Mr. SiLA'ER. Yes; I did.
Mr. Halley. And prior to that were you in New York City as a
bettor and bookie ?
Mr. Silver. Not as a bookie ; no.
Mr. Halley. What did you do, lay off bets ?
Mr. Silver. I used to bet, go to the race track. I usually knew
people around who would bet and I would take care of their bets for
them, go to the windows for them, and so on.
Mr. Halley. Would you handle lay-off money?
Mr. SiL\^R. No ; you wouldn't call it lay-off money. That is what
was in that other thing that I was talked to, but those men interpreted
it that way and put it down, but it wasn't quite that way. If I was
something, a lot of these people who bet on horses and things, they
don't want to be bothered running to the windows, and so on, or to the
bookmakers. In those days I believe they were bookmakers. So you
would scout around and try to get the best price on a horse, and so on,
and in that way you would make a living. It wasn't much of a living,
but it was enough for my needs.
Mr. Halley. You did that from the time you came to New York
in 1938 from California?
Mr. SiL\T.R. For a couple of years ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Until about 1939, when you went to Cuba?
Mr. SiL\T2R. Yes; 1938 or 1939. It may have been 1938; I am not
sure of that year.
Mr. Halley. How did you get into that business ?
Mr. Silvt:r. Well, I guess you just kind of drift into it, I don't
know. It seems to me a good way to make a living.
Mr. Halley. Did anybody introduce you around?
Mr. SIL\^■:R. You get to know people in a general kind of way.
Mr. Halley. Did you get to know, for instance, Frank Erickson?
Mr. SiLAT.R. No. i would know him if I saw him, I think.
Mr. Halley. Any of his people, such as Cantor and Strader?
Mr. Silver. I think by sight I might know them.
Mr. Halley. Griggs?
Mr. Silver. I never had anything to do with them, no business or
anything like that.
iVfr. Halley. In any event, you did that until 1939, and then you
went down to Cuba.
Mr. Silver. That is right.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 43
Mr. Halle Y. How did you get your job at the Jockey Club in
Habana ?
Mr. Silver. I heard about the place being opened, and that there
were Americans running it, so I just went over and tried to get work.
Mr. Halley. What kind of work did you do there ?
Mr. Silver. I did clerical work in the bookmaking department and
in the gambling room too, at times.
Mr. Halley. John Barker and Joe Goldie were your bosses there ?
Mr. Silver. They were executives ; yes.
Mr. Halley. And later you worked with them up in New Jersey,
is that right ?
Mr. Silver. I don't think I ever worked any place with Goldie in
New Jersey.
Mr. Halley. But with Barker you did ?
Mr. Silver. Yes; Barker was at some of these places we have been
referring to.
Mr. Halley. Then you came back to New York and went into
betting again ?
Mr. Silver. Yes ; the same thing more or less.
Mr. Halley. Betting at the race tracks and taking bets and placing
them for people.
Mr. Silver. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You did that until about 1945 ?
Mr. Silver. I worked in another place over in Jersey before.
Mr. Halley. You worked at Ben Marden's Riviera, is that right ?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. In what year did you work at the Riviera ?
Mr. Silver. In 1942.
Mr. Halley. "VVlio gave you that job ?
Mr. Silver. I went over there and spoke to Mr. Marden and asked
for a job. I was told that if my services were desired, they would
communicate with me. A short time later I received a phone call
to come over there to go to work.
Mr. Halley. "VVlio was in charge of the help there ?
Mr. Silver. A man by the name of Leon Levy.
Mr. Halley. Then who hired you for G. & R. in 1945 ?
Mr. Silver. I believe it was Alex Goldfine.
Mr. Halley. After working through this, is your memory any
clearer on where you worked, where this building was that you worked
at in 1945?
Mr. Silver. I believe the building that I worked at in 1945 was in
a community called West Paterson. I am not positive of that. I be-
lieve I have heard that name mentioned.
Mr. Halley. What community ?
Mr. Silver. West Paterson.
Mr. Halley. West Paterson.
Mr. Silver. I think so.
Mr. Halley. What was it ? A private residence ?
Mr. Silver. I guess you could so describe it as that. I don't believe
I ever saw it in the daytime, so it was kind of difficult to determine.
jNIr. Halley. How would you get there ?
Mr. Silver. I would get there in a car driven by one of the dealers,
mostly it was one of the dealers.
44 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN IKTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Did the club ever provide a car to pick you up at the
George Washington Bridge ?
Mr. SiL\'ER. I may have ridden out in a chib car. I believe I did
on occasions.
Mr. Halley. Did bettors from time to time ride out, customers, in
club cars ?
Mr. Silver. That would only be kind of hearsay on my part because
I don't know tliat for sure. That wasn't in my province. You know
what I mean. Nobody discussed that with me.
Mr. Halley. But the club did have cars to pick people up in New
York and take them over, is that right?
Mr. Silver. I think so.
]Mr. Halley. How many crap tables did they have at this place?
Mr. Silver. Three, I believe.
Mr. Halley. What other gambling was there ?
Mr. Silver. There were some roulette wheels?
Mr. Halley. How many men would work at each crap table ?
Mr. Silver. I should say around six usually would consist of the
group working.
Senator Tobey. Six players ?
Mr. Halley. No ; six men representing the house.
Senator Tobey. How many players would be around these tables ?
Mr. Silver. I guess they would accommodate anything from 12 to
14.
Senator Tobey. Did the players use their own dice?
Mr. Silver. No ; the house supplied the dice.
Senator Tobey. Were they loaded ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir; to to my knowledge, they were not.
Mr. Halley. Then when you went to work in 1947 was it the same
place or a different location ?
Mr. Silver. No ; that was a different location.
Mr. Halley. Where was that location ?
Mr. SiL\^R. I think that was the place that has been referred to as
being Lodi.
Mr. Halley. Lodi.
Mr. Silver. I think so.
Mr. Halley. Will you describe that as best you can, the location
and its whereabouts ?
Mr. Silver. I would guess it is somewhere around 10 miles away
from the bridge on the left side of the road going out.
Mr. Halley. How large a place was it ?
Mr. Silver. I am not a good judge of that.
Mr. Halley. Was it a big building ?
Mr. Silver. It appeared more like it might be a garage or some-
thing, from what I could see of it.
Mr. Halley. No restaurant attached to it?
Mr. SiL\'ER. There was a dining room in there ; oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. Was there entertainment?
Mr. SiL\^R. No.
Mr. Halley. Just food served?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How many crap tables were there at the Lodi place?
Mr. Silver. I believe there were two there at that time.
Mr. Hali:ey. Was there roulette?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTE ESTATE COMMERCE 45
Mr. Halley. How many roulette wheels ?
Mr. Silver. I think there might have been four there, three or four,
four I would say. I am pretty sure.
Mr. Halley. Was there chemin de f er ?
Mr. Silver. Yes ; there was.
Mr. Halley. At this place how long did it operate ? Was that all
through 194t?
Mr. Silver. I figured that out from those slips with those other
gentlemen that I spoke to. That is about the only way I can judge
it. I don't remember the period now that we figured. They kind of
helped me work it out in my mind at the time.
Mr. Halley. You show income in 1947 on this withholding state-
ment of $3,350 from the L. & C. Amusement Co. Would that be a flat
salary for you?
Mr. Silver. Yes ; that was a flat salary.
Mr. Halley. Did you get a commission?
Mr. Silver. No.
Mr. Halley. How were you paid? What was your salary?
Mr. Silver. I got $100 a week.
Mr. Halley. Then it would appear that you worked most of the
year.
Mr. SiL^^R. Yes; that is what I say. That slip would just about
show it. That is the reason I referred to it.
Mr. Halley. All at this one place, a rather steady operation, is that
right?
Mr. Silver. I think there was a break there where I didn't work
for about a month when it didn't operate, it was during the summer
sometime, or in August.
Mr. Halley. That would be the slack season. Did you go to Sara-
toga at that time, that summer ?
Mr. Silver. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever gone to Saratoga ?
Mr. Silver. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Where did you work at Saratoga ?
Mr. Sil\^r. I never worked at Saratoga.
Mr. Halley. A lot of the people you were with worked up there,
didn't they?
Mr. Silver. Yes ; that is true.
Mr. Halley. They worked at the Arrowhead Inn ?
Mr. SIL^'ER. I believe they did during that period of time that I
referred to, but I didn't go up there. I didn't work.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever offered a job at Saratoga?
Mr. Silver. No ; not that I recall.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever ask for one ?
Mr. Silver. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Halley. What sort of places do they have at Saratoga?
Mr. SiL\^R. Well, that would only be hearsay, but I imagine they
are more like night clubs up there from what I have heard about
them.
Mr. Halley. Weren't you ever in any of the gambling places at
Saratoga ?
Mr. Silver. Not in recent years.
Mr. Halley. Was this place at Lodi ever raided ?
Mr. Silver. Not while I was there ; no.
46 ORGAlSnZEID CRIME IN IKTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. It wasn't particularly a secret operation, was it?
People would come and go ? It was open ?
Mr. Silver. I would say so.
Mr. Halley. It must have had a large parking lot on the outside.
Mr. Silver. There was a space for parking cai^,
Mr. Hallet. Was there any sign on the outside calling it a restau-
rant or anything?
Mr. Silver. No .
Mr. Halley. Just a building and people would walk in and out.
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Then in 1948 just from your records you worked in
two places, first for the L. & C. Amusement Co., which is the same
company you worked for in 1947, and your records show that they
paid you $1,300. Do you remember where you worked in 1948? Is
that the same operation in Lodi ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir. That wasn't.
Mr. Halley. I am talking now about the L. & C. Amusement Co.,
the first one you worked for.
Mr. Silver. Part of that may have been in Lodi. Of that I am not
sure. I am a little confused on that. I believe that overlapped into
1948. I believe it did.
Mr. Halley. Then you went to another place in 1948, is that right,
to the Pal Trading Co. ?
Mr. Silver. I think so. There must be a reason why those slips are
separated. I don't remember exactly what took place.
Mr. Halley. Wliat is the other location at which you worked in
1948 ?
Mr. Silver. I think part of the time it was in that place in Lodi.
Then I think part of the time was a place closer in near the bridge. I
wouldn't know what you call it. I believe that is 14, but I don't know
for sure. It is right across the bridge.
Mr. Halley. You worked in 1949 also for the Pal Trading Co. —
no ; you worked for General Trading Corp. in 1949. Do you remember
that there was a difference between the place you worked for for Pal
and for General ?
Mr. SiL^TER. Yes. I think there was another place somewhere
around the Palisades. I don't know what the name of that town is.
Those towns over there kind of run together like, and it is hard to tell.
Mr. Halley. "Wliat kind of place is the place in Palisades ? Did it
have more than one crap table t
Mr. Silver. Yes. It had three crap tables.
Mr. Halley. Did it have roulette ?
Mr. Sil\^r. No ; it didn't.
Mr. Halley. Chemin de f er ?
Mr. Silver. No.
Mr. Halley. Just three crap tables.
Mr, Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. While we are working on this phase of it, could you
tell the difference between a carpet place and a sawdust place?
Mr. SiL\T3R. I would say the difference would be that in one there
were women and in the other there wasn't. That would be about the
big difference.
Mr. Halley. You mean a sawdust place would be a game ?
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 47
Mr. Silver. A sort of place that women wouldn't be interested at
being at.
Mr. Halley. Would they serve food at all? Would it be there a
little buffet?
Mr. SlL^^3R. There might be a lunch counter where you could buy
a sandwich or something like that, but that would be all.
Mr. Halley. There would be no elaborate arrangement.
Mr. Silver. No ; nothing like a restaurant.
Mr. Halley. However, the games were just as big and just as
important, I suppose.
Mr. Silver. More or less similar; yes.
Mr. Halley. How much money would you say would be played at a
table in the course of an evening ?
Mr. Silver. I hate even to hazard a guess on that because it might
fluctuate a great deal. Naturally I never participated in anything
like counting or anything like that.
Mr. Halley. How long would the game go on in an evening?
Mr. Silver. I guess around 9 or 9 : 30.
Mr. Halley. When would the crowd really begin to arrive?
Mr. SiL^^R. It would fill up by midnight, I should say, if it were
going to fill up. There were some nights that were slower than others.
It varied. It wasn't uniform.
Mr. Halley. How long did it stay pretty well filled up?
Mr. SiL^rER. A couple or 3 hours, maybe.
Mr. Halley. Until say 3 : 00 in the morning ?
Mr. Sn.vER. Maybe,
Mr. Halley. When would you close?
Mr. Silver. I guess whenever there were no more people around,
when it wasn't worth while.
Mr. Halley. Would that be around 4 or 5 a. m. ?
Mr. SiL\^R. It could be anywhere around that time.
Mr. Halley. Could it be even later?
Mr. Silver. Hardly ever.
Mr. Hali.ey. Was there a limit on these games ?
Mr, Silver. A what?
Mr. Halley. A betting limit.
Mr. Silver. Yes. That varied sometimes according to the places.
In some places the limit might be $100 and in others it might be as
much as maybe $300.
Mr. Halley. For any bet ?
Mr. Silver. Yes,
Mr. Halley. So a man could stay there all night and make a few
hundred bets, is that right ?
Mr. Silver. That would be up to the player.
Mr. Halley. Yes ; but on any one bet it would be limited to $100
or $300.
Mr. Silver. That is right. It would depend upon the circum-
stances, possibly, and the margins on which the people were operating.
Mr. Halley. Where was the highest limit, at what place?
Mr. Silver. I believe at the Lodi place was about the highest limit
at any table that I worked at. That was $300. To the best of my
recollection, that is the highest.
Mr. Halley, What is the smallest bet that a man could make at,
say, Lodi ?
48 ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Silver. I think about $5.
Mr. Halley. About $5. In other words, you couldn't even walk
up to the crap table and put a dollar bill down on a roll. You would
be frowned on.
Mr. Silver. Well, no ; it wouldn't be that, but there weren't many-
people who cared to, apparently.
Mr. Halley. Then there must have been on almost every roll of
dice a few thousand dollars on the table.
Mr. Silver. Oh, no ; I wouldn't say that. No. It is difficult to try
to explain it to you, naturally, I am not good at that sort of thing
and you don't understand anything about it. So it is a little difficult
to explain it to you.
Mr, Halley. That is right. Do it your own way. What we are
trying to do is to visualize the operation.
Mr. Silver. You might have a player who would stand there and
make a bet every 10 minutes, and then you might have a player who
would stand there and make a bet every 2 minutes, depending on the
individual. There is no compulsion on the part of a house to force
a man to bet if he didn't care to. He might be betting on a hunch.
He might not like the haircut of the man shooting the dice, or he
might be superstitious about the man wearing eyeglasses, I mean in
a general kind of way.
Mr, Halley, I have watched the operations quite carefully at Las
Vegas, where it is legal, and most betters play pretty regularly. They
don't stand there and bet every 10 minutes, do they ?
Mr, Silver. I of course have never worked out there but so I don't
know, but from what I have heard the action out there is always a
lot faster than it ever is in the East. Apparently the people in the
West gamble higher and faster than they do in the East.
Mr. Halley. The stakes are nothing like the stakes you have de-
scribed. They are much lower.
Mr. Sil\t:r. I have never worked out there up until now, so I don't
know.
Mr. Halley. In any event, would you say that in the course of an
evening a great many thousands of dollars passed over the table?
Mr. Silver. I wouldn't say a great many. I might say a couple or a
few, depending upon the business and also it might pass either way,
because there are many, many winners, too. It goes both ways.
Mr. Halley. Eegardless of which way it passes, the total number
of bets couldn't possibly be in an evening under $10,000 for any one
table?
Mr. SiLATER. I would say definitely yes. I would say that is much
too high a figure, offhand, I should think.
Mr. Halley. You think that would be too high?
Mr. Stl\t:r. I would think that would be much too high.
Mr. Halley. What would you fix it at for any one table in an
evening ?
Mr. Sil^t:r. You have me at a disadvantage again because there is
no way of determining that. The same money goes in and out pos-
sibly during a great deal of the time. Whether it actually changes
hands is a question. You might come in and might start off and lose
a couple of hundred dollars and then win it back. If you would include
all that money that circulates, it would be difficult to determine.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 49
Mr. Halley. That is what I mean. Here is what I am trying to get
at. If you walked in there and just walked over to one of these tables'
and looked at it, say at around 1 a. m. on a good night, you would be
apt to see sitting right on the table a couple of thousand dollars at
any one table, wouldn't you, in chips ?
Mr. Silver. Yes; I would say that.
Mr. Halley. Of course, the dice are rolled perhaps every 30
seconds.
Mr. Silver. Pardon me. May I interrupt. When I say "yes," I
don't mean that all of that is in action and being bet. I wouldn't say
a couple of thousand was being bet at any one time. What I meant
was players would have it in front of them as well as its being on the
table in action.
Mr. Halley. What would you be likely to see on the table?
Mr. Silver. In action, you mean?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
M'r. Silver. Oh
Mr. Halley. Of course it would depend on who was there.
Mr. Silver. That is true. You see it is such a problematical ques-
tion. Some nights you might have people who gambled big and
some times you might have people who don't gamble.
Mr. Halley. Suppose you had people who gambled big, on a big
night how much would you be apt to see on the table in action?
Mr. Silver. Maybe around a thousand or so. I don't know, that is
just a guess. I don't want you people to think I have any accurate
way of determining that. I don't have.
Mr. Halley. I know that. We are just trying to get a picture of the
kind of money that moved back and forth. On a small night it might
be as little as a hundred or less ?
Mr. Silver. Very easily.
Mr. Halley. In any one roll of the dice.
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Of course the dice kept rolling constantly.
Mr. Silver. That doesn't mean that the bets changed necessarily.
The dice might roll for 10 minutes, as much as 10 minutes, I have seen
it happen, without any money changing hands, without any decision.
Senator Tobey. Do they throw ones or the best two out of three?
Mr. Silver. If you want me to go into a dice course on it I will try
to explain it to you to the best of my ability.
Senator Tobey. Very briefly. Is it one throw.
Mr. SiL^^R. You may bet that the shooter is going to win. If you
are shooting at dice, other people can bet on you as well as yourself.
If you throw 2, 3, or 12, you lose. If you throw a 7 or 11 you win.
Senator Tobey. Is there just one dice to throw ?
Mr. Silver. No, two, sir. If you throw any other number, then
you continue to throw the dice until such time that you either throw
the number that you threw originally, which means you win, or you
throw a 7 which means you lose.
Senator Tobey. It is the aggregate, 6 and 1 would be a 7 or 4 and 3.
Mr. Silver. Yes, the total.
Senator Tobey. It is the top number on the dice, isn't it ?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. The bettor standing around the table could bet with
or against the man who is rollins; the dice, is that right ?
50 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Silver. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And they could make all sorts of side bets on the next
roll or the next two rolls or on almost any possible combination.
Mr. Silver. Yes ; there are various ways of betting.
Sena tor Tobey, Are the bets written down ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Just the man's mentality.
Mr. Silver. The tables are marked in such a way that it indicates
what you are operating on. Your money is placed at that particular
point and that means you are betting on that.
Mr. Halley. We have covered all but one last place, and that is the
place in New Jersey, the last place you worked, just across the George
Washington Bridge. Do you remember that one ?
Mr. Silver. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Would you describe that ?
Mr. Silver. That is the place that I believe was referred to as a
carriage factory ?
Mr. Halley. How many tables were there ?
Mr. Silver. Three.
Mr. Halley. Any roulette ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Any chemin de f er ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Wlien you get across the George Washington Bridge,
in which direction would you go to the carriage factory ?
Mr. Silver. Not very far, and then it was to the left, a very short
distance.
Mr. Halley. It was a sort of old-fashioned two-story building?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. It had a sign on it saying carriage factory?
Mr. Silver. I was told that. I am not sure if I ever saw that sign
or not. It may have had it and it may not have. I don't know. I
don't recall it. I have heard it referred to that way.
Senator Tobey. Was there anything appropriate about that name ?
Mr. Silver. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. Elich. It is a factory building, Senator, a large building.
They only occupied a small portion for their activity.
The Chairman. When did he work there ?
Mr. Halley. You worked there in 1949, is that right?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Up to the very end, in December, is that correct ?
Mr. SiiATR. I worked until December of 1949 in Jersey.
Mr. Halley. From June ?
Mr. Silver. At that place or that other place that we referred to.
Some of that time may have been in that other place that we were
talking about at Pallisades.
Mr. Halley. The place at Palisades.
Mr. Silver. You see, sometimes you change over, you know what
I mean. I am trying to give you people the best of my recollection. I
may not be 100-percent perfect in every answer. I hope you people
understand that I am doing the best I can under the circumstances
trying to get this thing behind me as quickly as possible. I know that
you feel the same way about it.
Senator Tobey. Are you still in the same business right now ?
ORGANIZE!D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 51
Mr. Silver. No, sir. I am not doing anything right now.
Mr. Halley. The carriage factory was what you would call a saw-
dust place ?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Elich is shaking his head.
Mr. Elich. I am sorry. There were two places running at the same
time. One was a sawdust place and one was a carpet place. Wasn't
the carpet place over across, just a short distance, about a block away?
Mr. Silver. No, sir. I believe this gentleman is wrong about that.
Mr. Elich. I merely asked you.
Mr. Silver. Don't verify it by me, but to the best of my knowledge,
that is not right.
Mr. Elich. That is the impression I got.
Mr. Halley. There is a place at Palisades, a carpet place?
Mr. Silver. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Both were sawdust places ?
Mr. Silver. That is right.
Mr. Halley. As far as the amount of money bet
Mr. Silver. May I interpose and say one thing regarding what that
gentleman said?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Silver. There may have been at various times, I am not aware
of this, and I am not suijposing, there may have been times when there
were two places running simultaneously, but I wouldn't necessarily
have knowledge of the fact. I want you people to understand that
I just worked there, and if there were certain things going on, they
didn't necessarily inform me of them. He may be right that some
time or other there were two places working simultaneously that I am
not aware of. It may be true and it may not be. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. In all of these places from 1945 to 1949, there was
basically the same group of employees; is that right?
Mr. Silver. There was a turn-over, but more or less the same cases.
Mr. Halley. Who were the bosses, for instance, through this whole
period? Was Goldfine there constantly?
Mr. Silver. Yes ; I believe he was.
Mr. Halley. Was Schaf er there ?
Mr. Silver. I believe he was. I can't be absolutely sure of those
answers because to the best of my recollection they were there right
along; yes.
Mr. Halley. Was Kitty Klein there?
Mr. Silver. I don't think he was in every place ; no, I don't think so.
Mr. Halley, Which places was he in, do you remember ?
Mr. Silver. I would say definitely that I saw him in that place I
referred to in Patterson and another place I referred to in Lodi.
That I would say.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested in any of these places ? Were
they ever raided ?
Mr. Silver. Not while I was there.
Mr. Halley. You had no trouble at all ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir,
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see any policemen in them ?
Mr. Silver. Not in uniform, not that I would know were policemen.
Mr. Halley. Did they ever come in and sit down and have a drink ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir.
52 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN mTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. And a bite of food?
Mr. SiL^TER. No, sir ; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Halley. No further questions.
The Chairman. To your knowledge how was this protection
arrranged ?
Mr. Silver. That I wouldn't know. I tried to explain I worked
for these people and they regarded me just as help and that is all.
They don't discuss things like that with me.
The Chairman. But they were all places open to the public, where
the public could come in if they wanted to gamble ?
Mr. SiL\TER. I wouldn't say they were open to the public to the ex-
tent that you could walk in the way you would into a public drinking
place or dining place.
The Chairman. Did you have to give some special knock ?
Mr. Silver. The people who came in were known to somebody in
the place. Otherwise — that is just my guess on the matter.
The Chairman. Did they have horse books in these or wire service
in these places ?
Mr. Silver. Not to my knowledge. I never saw anything like that
around.
The Chairman. Any betting on horses ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir.
The Chairman. How many of these places were also supper clubs
or restaurants where you could eat and then go back and gamble ?
Mr. Silver. Two of those.
The Chairman. Which two ?
Mr. Sil^t:r. The one I referred to somewhere in Paterson, I believe
it was, and the other one in Lodi.
The Chairman. Mr. Kostelanetz, do you have any questions?
Mr. Kostelanetz. No.
The Cha.irman. Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobey. Were these places ever raided ?
Mr. Silver. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Do you ever see Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Silver. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Where?
Mr. Silver. Well, I believe I saw him in a couple of these places.
Senator Tobey. Was he playing the game or in a managerial capac-
ity, partner, or what?
Mr. Silver. No managerial capacity so far as I was concerned.
Senator Tobey. What was he doing ?
Mr. Silver. Just walking in the place and looking around possibly,
maybe he would be in the dining room eating.
Senator Tobey. Did they show him proper respect for his rank?
Mr. Silver. That I didn't pay any attention to, sir, because usually
if I happened to see him I would be working and couldn't pay much
attention.
Senator Tobey. How did you know he was Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Silver. I knew him when I saw him.
Senator Tobey. How many times had you seen him before that?
Mr. Silver. Before that I don't believe I had ever seen him.
Senator Tobey. How did you know him ?
Mr. Silver. Because somebody mentioned the fact that was who it
was.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 53
Senator Tobey. Did they say it with a little bit of respect and
reverence in their voice?
Mr. Silver. Well, possibly respect. I wouldn't say reverence.
Senator Tobey. That is all.
The Chairman. I believe that is all.
Mr. Haij.ey. Thank you.
Mr.
Mr. Halley. Surely.
Mr. Silver. I realize that subpena I received holds me to appear
whenever you want me, but do you think that I would be wanted again
in the event that I was able to get employment elsewhere out of town,
possibly in the West, in Nevada or something like that or must I
remain in New York? Just what takes place now so far as I am
personally concerned?
The Chairman. You are, of course, continued under subpena. We
would want you to let us know where you are.
Mr. Silver. Do you think if I went away, particularly a great dis-
tance, that I would be required to return ? What I am trying to get
at, I will try to explain, if I do go away it will be for the purpose of
obtaining employment, and if I obtain employment and it were neces-
sary for me to leave, I would lose that employment more than likely.
That is what I am trying to determine.
Senator Tobey. I don't want to inquire into your personal affairs,
but do you contemplate or hope for employment along the same lines
you have been doing here ?
Mr. Silver. I was thinking about Nevada. I don't know whether
I will do it or not. It is possible I may, it is possible that I may not.
Senator Tobey. That brings about another question of human
relations which I am interested in and I am doing a little research
work in these cases. How old are you ?
Mr. Silver. Forty-five.
Senator Tobey. This is the business y oti have been in some time ?
Mr. Silver. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey, What was your business prior to this ?
Mr. SiL\a2R. Prior to this I was salesman.
Senator Tobey. What is there about this that intrigues you? It
isn't very heavy money you are getting.
Mr. Silver. No, it isn't, you are right.
Senator Tobey. Aiding and abetting an illegal business. Wliy don't
you as you look ahead look for something more stable? Why don't
you cut the stuff out ?
Mr. Silver. You have the right idea. I have been thinking about
it for quite a while.
Senator Tobey. Then don't go to Nevada.
Mr. Silver. Maybe you are right about that, too. Of course, it is
legal there.
Senator Tobey. I know, but it is playing the same game, that is
all.
Mr. Silver. You are right about that.
Senator Tobey. Do you have any children ?
Mv. Silver. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Are you married ?
Mr. Silver. Yes, I am.
Senator Tobey. That is all I have.
54 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. It is quite likely that within the next few weeks
we will need you here, but we don't want to prevent you from going-
anywhere else to accept employment, but when you are notified ta
come back you will have to come back,
Mr. SIL^^:R. You mean if I left you would require me to return?
Do you think you would require me to return if I did go away ?
]\ir. Halley. Yes.
The Chairman. It is quite likely that we will.
Mr. Hallet. The matter will probably be cleaned up within a matter
of a few weeks. In any event, if you do go away be absolutely sure to
let Mr. Elich or Mr. Kostelanetz know where you are going.
Mr. Silver. In view of what I was told I doubt very much if any-
thing will come of it. Anything else now ?
The Chairman. No. That is all.
Mr. Barker, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this
committee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Baricer. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. BARKER, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Barker, what is your address ?
Mr. Barker. 12 East Ninety-seventh Street.
Mr. Halley. "V^liat is your business ?
Mr. Barker. I work in club houses.
Mr. Halley. Gambling houses ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you been doing that ?
Mr. Barker. A great many years.
Mr. Halley. Did you start at the old Riviera, run by Ben Marden?
Mr. Barker. Did I start there? Oh, no.
Mr. Halley. You started even before that ?
Mr. Barker. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. You worked in Habana, is that right ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Haluey. At the Jockey Club ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is that where you started or can you go back even
further?
Mr. Barker. Well, can I move over just a little. '\"\nien did I start?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. I started about 60 years ago.
Mr. Halley. Where did you start ?
Mr. Barker. Omaha, Nebr.
Mr. Halley. In what cities have you worked in gambling houses
since then ?
Mr. Barker. I have worked in gambling in Omaha, as I told you,
Saratoga, and New York City.
Mr, Halley. Around 1933 you worked at the Jockey Club at
Habana ?
Mr. Barker. In 1933? Yes, I think we were there in 1933.
IVfr. Halley. Was one of the men who worked for you Charles
Silver, who just left?
Mr, Barker. Silver?
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN m'TE ESTATE COMMERCE 55
Mr. Halley. Yes. Do you remember him ?
Mr. Barker. No, not in 1933.
Mr. Halley. At a later time he did work for you, is that right?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. About 1939?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long were you at the Jockey Club in Habana?
Mr. Barker. I was there for quite a while off and on. I don't
remember what year I first went out there. To tell you the truth,
I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Were you in charge of the wheels ?
Mr. Barker. In Habana, yes.
Mr. Halley. They would be roulette wheels, is that right ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Then you came to the Riviera owned by Ben Marclen,
is that correct ?
Mr. Barker. No. I came to the Riviera, but the Riviera was con-
ducted by Mr. Marden as a restaurant. I came there with some people-
from Philadelphia.
Mr. Halley. Wlio were they?
Mr. Barker. There first with Keolker.
Mr. Halley. Is that spelled K-e-o-l-k-e-r ?
Mr. Barker. Yes. sir.
Mr. Halley. Where did you meet Mr. Keolker,
Mr. Barker. In Habana.
Mr. Halley. Did he have any connection with the Habana Club ?
Mr. Barker. No, not then.
Mr. Halley. Did he at any time ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Can you tell the committee about it, how he got into
the Habana Club and then how he happened to bring you up to New
Jersey ?
Mr. Barker. How he happened to bring me ? Well, I will tell you.
He was in Habana not engaged in the casino. He had nothing to do
with that. I don't know, perhaps he liked my work. Anyhow, when
he came back here I met him on the race track one day and they
said they were going in the Riviera. That is the old Riviera, you
understand.
Mr. Halley. 'Wliere was that located ?
Mr. Barker. I think it might be a couple of hundred feet farther up
the Palisades.
Mr. Halley. It burned, did it not ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir; on Thanksgiving evening, night.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't there gambling at the old Riviera ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir. I am telling you I went in there with the
Keolkers.
Mr. Halley. At that time was Marden running the restaurant?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hali^y. At the old Riviera ?
Mr. Barker. Well, his name was there. I guess he run it.
Mr. Halley^ Did you work at the new Riviera ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. During what period ?
56 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Barker. You see, when that burned down it took some time to
rebuild the new Riviera, and I won't be positive exactly when we did
go in there.
Mr. Halley. You were ill for a while, weren't you ?
Mr. Barker. Yes. I was 9 weeks in the Inglewood Hospital.
Mr. Halley. When you came out of that hospital, was that in
1942?
Mr. Barker. Yes. I think I came out maybe in September. I
wouldn't be sure about it. I know when I went in.
Mr. Halley. Did Ben Marden ask you to take charge at the new
Riviera ?
Mr. Barker. Did he ask me to take charge ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. I don't know that. I just moved in, that is all.
Mr. Halley. You just moved in.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. At the new place he actually ran the gambling oper-
ation, did he not ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What was your function there ?
Mr. Barker. I looked after the wheels. I don't know what you
would call it.
Senator Tobey. You kept them greased ?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Halley. How many roulette wheels were there at the new
Riviera ?
Mr. Barker. Well, let me count up. I will try to figure it out. I
think we had four.
Mr. Halley. What is the function of the man who looks after the
wheels ? What do you do ? Supervise all four ?
Mr. Barker. Yes. Well, generally have somebody, you know, who
works around with me.
ISIr. Halley. You have one or two men at each wheel, is that right ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And then you and one or two other men also circulate
around.
Mr. Barker. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Halley. After you worked at the Riviera for some time, it
closed, did it not, at the end of 1942?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Between 1942 and
Mr. Barker. May I interrupt you ?
Mr. Halley. Please.
Mr. Barker. After I came out of the hospital I took no active — I
have to tell you this, because I have income-tax returns that show
those things. After I came out of the hospital I went in there on the
30th of June, and I came out — I was in there 9 weeks. Would prob-
ably be around maybe in the first week of September.
Mr. Halley. Did you, by the way, bring 3'our income-tax records
with you ?
]Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do 3^ou have them here now ?
Mr. Barker. I haven't those away back there ; no, sir.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 57
Mr. Hallet. Do you have the more recent ones?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. Would you present them to the committee ?
Mr. Barker. Why, certainly.
Mr. Hallet. Thank you.
Mr. Barker. I only brought any records that might be per-
taining
Mr. Hallet. To the more recent operations?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. That is just what we wanted. Thank you.
Mr. Barker. You see, I don't keep these records myself. I have a
concern that takes care of my income tax when I have any income, and
I leave those papers there.
Mr. Hallet. Between 19.t2 and 1945 did you work for any gam-
bling operation ?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Hallet. What was your occupation in those years?
Mr. Barker. Nothing.
Mr. Hallet. In 1945 did you go to work for the G. & R. Trading
Co.?
Mr. Barker. Well, I suppose I did. I don't keep much of a rec-
ord of initials or letters, but whatever is on there, I must have worked
for.
Mr. Hallet. We have here a withholding receipt for the year
1945 to John W. Barker, 12 East Ninety-seventh Street. That is one
you just brought in ; is that right ?
Mr. Barker. That must be my income tax.
Mr. Hallet. It looks like it. This is the one you just brought
in ; is that right ?
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Mr. Hallet. Three thousand seven hundred dollars income paid
by G. & R. Trading Co., 109 Roosevelt Avenue, Hasbrouck Heights,
N. J. The individual name is Anthony Guarini. Would you tell
who Anthony Guarini is ?
Mr. Barker. I am afraid I can't tell you that.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever meet him ?
Mr. Barker. I am afraid I can't tell you. I might have, but I
don't know. I will tell you, I never had anybody ever to give me
any orders. I never came in contact with anybody that ever told
me what to do or what not to do.
Mr. Hallet. Who hired you in 1945 ?
Mr. Barker. Who hired me ?
Mr. Hallet. Yes.
Mr. Barker. This perhaps will seem a little ridiculous to you, but
nevertheless I don't know how much you know about these proce-
dures of the gambling business. You may know all about it. They
were going to open a place over in Jerse3^ I didn't even know where
it was, but a lot of them were going over from Seventh Avenue. I
went down and we went over there, and I guess there must have
been I don't know how many automobiles, and somebody drove me
over to this place.
Mr. Hallet. What do you mean when you say there were a lot
of people going over from Seventh Avenue? Is tliat the meeting
place ?
68058 — 51 — pt. 7 5
58 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Barker. They just happened to meet there, I suppose; who-
ever was going- to drive them with machines tokl them they would
be there. I didn't know anything about it. I am a little peculiar
about where I go and where I work.
Mr. Halley. Wlio told you about it ?
Mr. Barker. Somebody, some of these boys — I don't know — that
I know, called me up.
Mr. Halley. You don't remember who it was ?
Mr. Barker. I don't remember. I didn't pay enough attention to
it.
Mr. Halley. Did you go to Seventh Avenue and get into an auto-
mobile ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, and went over.
Mr. Halley. Who went with you ; do you know I Did you know^
the people in the automobile ?
Mr. Barker. I am under oath, and I wouldn't like to mention
somebody's name that I really didnt' know.
Mr. Halley. Would you give your best recollection? It will be
taken for what it is worth by the committee.
Mr. Barker. It seems to me there was a man by tne name of
dayman or Cleyman, or something like that.
Mr. Halley. Cleyman?
Mr. Barker. I think he was in the machine. I think so.
Mr. Halley. Were you taken to a place in Caldwell, N. J.?
Mr. Barker. That is right. I couldn't get there, and I wouldn't
know how to get there.
Mr. Halley. What was it — a private residence ?
Mr. Barker. I would imagine it might some time have been a little
small restaurant or something. It might have been. It was like in a
private house.
Mr. Halley. And there was a gambling room ; is that right ?
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Or was there more than one gambling room ?
Mr. Bariver. Oh, no.
Mr. Halley. Who hired you there? Who did you talk to?
Mr. Barker. Xobody. That is what I am trying to tell you ; no-
body hired me. You go in those places and see somebody maybe that
you know. They must have known me from — some of the boys must
have told them something about me or I never would have gotten the
telephone message.
Mr. Halley. It sounds to me like you are trying perhaps for good
motives to protect somebody.
Mr. Barker. No.
]Mr. Halley. But you must have known who was the straw boss at
the place.
Mr. Barker. I have nobody to protect. This man that you are
mentioning there, he might have been somewhere there in charge.
Mr. Halley. Who is that? I mentioned Charles Silver. You don't
mean him?
Mr. Barker. He never was in charge.
Mr. Halley. Was Alex Goldfine ?
Mr. Barker. Alex Goldfine worked there.
IMr. Halley. Did he have anything to do with hiring you?
Mr. Barker. No.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 59
Mr. Halley. What was his job there?
Mr. Barker. He ran the craps.
Mr. Halley. Was he a supervisor of any kind ?
Mr. Barker. Not that I know of. I don't think so.
Mr. Halley. Wliat did Kitty Klein do there?
Mr. Barker. He was credit man.
Mr. Halley. Was Jimmie Lynch tliere ?
Mr. Barker. Yes ; he was.
Mr. Halley. You saw him there?
Mr. Barker. Well, I think he worked on the books or maybe in the
money room, that I never got in.
Mr. Halley. You never got into the money room at all ?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Halley. Did yon ever see Joseph Doto there, Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Barker. Joe Adonis? I might have, but I wouldn't be posi-
tive. Just a minute. You say Joe Adonis.
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Is he on that card of mine ?
Mr. Halley. He is sometimes known as Joe Doto.
Mr. Barker. Well, I don't know anybody by the name of Doto. I
have read a great deal in the papers about Joe Adonis, but I never
read anything about Doto, but he might have been there and I might
have seen him.
Mr. Halley. Actually isn't Joe Doto the name that is on the cards
you have?
Mr. Barker. Yes; but I don't know anything about those names
there. I was asked that once before,
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Joe Adonis ? Do vou know who he
is? ^
Mr. Barker. I might have seen him there. I expect probably he
has been in tliere.
Mr. Halley. Have you seen him at some of the other gambling
places you worked at in recent years?
Mr. Barker. I might have seen him somewhere else. You see, there
is lots of people who come there — I will try and explain it to you.
They have a restaurant attached to those places. There are some
peo):)le who come in there in the restaurant who never come out. They
could be there and I would never see them, because I don't go in there.
I never eat any meals there. I never have any business there. So
he could have been in there and I might not have seen him.
Mr. Halley, When you say you might have seen him. do you really
mean you probably saw him but you are not absolutely sure?
Mr. Barker. I probably did if he was there.
Senator Tobey. Would you know him if he walked in here now?
Mr. Barker. Would I know him ? By sight I probably would ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Then you have seen him some place.
Mr. Barker. I say I probably have seen him,
Mr, Halley. You say you have never seen Guarini ?
Mr. Barker. Maybe, but I don't know him by that name.
Mr. Halley. By what name do you know Guarini ?
Mr. Barker. I don't know him by any name. There are a lot of
those people I couldn't know their names,
Mr. Halley. Who paid your salary ?
Mr. Barker, It come out of the office.
60 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You mean a cashier in a cage? Who wonld come out
of the office and hand it to you?
Mr. Barker. Well, anybody could bring it out. I will have to go
through that with you.
Mr. Halley. Would you, please.
Mr. Barker. We have a clubroom there. The doors are closed
until 9 o'clock. At 9 o'clock the dealei-s come into that room. On
pay nights envelopes are sent in there for the men who work on the
wheels. Those envelopes could be brought in by anybody. They
could be given to me; they could be given to the cashier; they could
be given to anybody. But probably if they were given to me for the
men who were working on the wheels or maybe if they were given
to Mr. Kessler, who helped me around there, we would say here are
four wheels, Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4, and the men who worked on No. 1,
their envelopes would be there laid on what they call the work board.
When they came in they would pick them up.
Senator Tobey. Mr. Chairman, there is a missing link here that we
ought to bring out, it seems to me. He says he went over there, took
a ride, and went in the place and handled the wheels, but no testimony
has been given as to who made the financial arrangements to link
him up with the management definitely.
Mr. Halley. I am trying to find out who the boss was.
Mr. Barker. I had no boss.
Senator Tobey. Who hired you ? Who told you to go to work and
agreed to pay you so much money ?
Mr. Barker. Perhaps this Mr. Greeno was the one.
Senator Tobey. You know who hired you, don't you ?
Mr. Barker. I beg your pardon ?
Senator Tobey. Haven't you a vivid recollection of what he said to
you when he hired you ?
Mr. Barker. Somebody spoke around there and said, "You go on
the wheels."
Senator Tobey. And you were willing. Did he quote the price ?
Mr. Barker. No ; not then.
Senator Tobey. You took whatever they wanted to give in the
envelope ; is that right ?
Mr. Barker. I got my salary at the end of the week.
Senator Tobey. How did you know how much it was ?
Mr. Barker. I didn't know.
Senator Tobey. You took whatever they put in the envelope ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. That constituted your salary.
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Senator Tobey. With no agreement between two minds at all.
Mr. Barker. No agreement.
Senator Tobey. You are certainly a trusting soul.
Mr. Barker. Trusting?
Senator Tobey. Yes ; very trusting. When a man goes to work for
somebody, he generally wants to know what the quid pro quo is going
to be. You took it all on faith.
Mr. Barker. All kinds of houses pay different salaries. I could
afford to work a week and find out. If it didn't suit me, I didn't have
to stay.
ORGAXIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 61
Senator Tobet. Wouldn't the natural thing be to ask, "What is in
it for nie ; what are you going to pay me?" Men don't work for their
health. They work for wages.
Mr. Barker. I didn't ask them.
Senator Tobey. That is a funny thing, gentlemen.
Mr. Barker. I don't think so.
Senator Tobey. I would like to see some other line of business where
they do it that way.
Mr. Barker. If you understood this business as I do probably you
would have the same idea.
Senator Tobey. Were you afraid not to go to work for them?
Mr. Barker. Afraid?
Senator Tobey. Yes.
Mr. Barker. Oh, no.
Senator Tobey. In other words, you went to work for them, and they
said, "Take a wheel," and you took a wheel.
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Senator Tobey. Price and salary unknown.
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Senator Tobey. Whatever you want to give me, gentlemen, is all
right.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Senator Tobey. When you opened the first envelope that consti-
tuted your salary
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir ; it was $100.
Senator Tobey. You looked for the same thing thereafter?
Mr. Barker, That is right.
Senator Tobey. Any percentage on the winnings ?
Mr. Barker. No.
Senator Tobey. Just a clean straight $100.
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Senator Tobey. Was that a fair salary, in your judgment?
Mr. Barker. Well, it was maybe a case of half a loaf is better than
none. It would be better to work, I think, 6 months for $100 a week
than 3 months for $200.
The Chairman. Mr. Barker, I didn't understand who called you
in the first place to meet them down at Seventh Avenue.
Mr. Barker. It probably was one of the boys.
The Chairman. You must know who called you.
Mr. Barker. That had been associated somewhere else with me.
People call people up all over the country, call them up from Chicago,
and tell them they are going to open some place,
Mr. Halley. You were in charge of three wheels, were you not ?
Mr. Barker, Yes.
Mr. Halley. You had an important job?
Mx. Barker. What?
Mr. Halley. You had an important job.
Mr. Barker. I wouldn't call it very important.
Mr. Halley. You certainly were supervising the man at each
wheel, were you not ?
Mr. Barker. Yes. I was looking after those wheels.
Mr. Halley. He knew you were his boss; is that right ? You gave
him orders,
Mr. Barker. Give him orders ; why, yes.
62 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley, You would tell him when to take a relief period and
when to leave the wheel.
Mr. Barker. He would ask me probably. He could ask anyone; he
could ask IVIr. Kessler or he could ask anyone who was there.
Mr. Halley. Who did you get your orders from ?
Mr. Barker. I didn't get any orders.
Mr. Halley. You mean in all the time you worked in that place
nobody gave you an order ?
Mr. Barker. I mean to tell you that I never got an order from
anybody in that place.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Barker
Mr. Barker. Nobody told me what to do and what not to do, no.
Mr. Halley. ]Mr. Barker, you must have known who the people
were who were in charge of that gambling establishment.
Mr. Barker. All I know is what is on that 'card.
Mr. Halley. You don't even know what is on the card. You don't
know Guarini, you say.
Mr. Barker. I don't know him by that name. If he has another
name, I might know him.
Mr. Halley. ^Yliat name did you know your bosses by ?
Mr. Barker. What bosses?
Mr. Halley. You have mentioned Greeno? Did you have a Greeno
there?
Mr. Barker. Probably he was.
Mr. Halley. Now probably is not an answer. Was a man named
Greeno there?
Mr. Barker. I suppose — I guess I will have to say there was because
I don't know.
Mr. Halley. No ; you don't have to say anything but the fact.
Mr. Barker. The fact is that I never had any boss that I know of
that ever came and told me anything by the name of Greeno or any
other name.
Mr. Halley. Nobody ever gave you a single instruction in all that
time?
Mr. Barker. Maybe they thought I knew my business and they
didn't have to give me any.
Mr. Halley. After Caldwell, did you go to work at Lodi ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hali^ey. Will you describe the operation at Lodi ?
Mr. Barker. The operation ?
Mr. Halley. The number of wheels, the number of crap games.
Mr. Barker. I think maybe we might have had one more wheel in
Lodi.
Mr. Halley. There were four wheels there, is that right?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Your boss there was the L. & C. Co., is that right?
Mr. Barker. I guess that is so, if it is on that.
Mr. Halley. Isn't that correct?
Mr. Barker. I guess it is.
Mr. Halley. How long did you work at Lodi ?
Mr. Barker. Well, they were open and closed there. I worked a
very short season there once. Then they reopened again, and I went
back.
Mr. Halley. What is the first year in which you worked at Lodi ?
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COAIMERCE 63
Mr. Barker. I think it must have been 1946. You see, I haven't
worked in any of those pLaces in over 2 years.
Mr. Halley. You worked in there 1946 and 1947, would that be
correct ?
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know who ran the gambUng house at Lodi ?
Mr. Barker. ^Yho ran it ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. The only man that I would say might have had some-
thing to do with it was a man by the name of Lynch.
Mr. Halley. James Lynch ?
Mr. Barker. Jim, James ; yes.
Mr. Halley. You would see him in the gambling room?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. He did give orders to people ?
Mr. Barker. He never gave me any, but maybe he gave them to
somebody else.
Mr. Halley. Did he or did he not give them to somebody else ?
Mr. Barker. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Halley. Did you see him giving orders? That is simple
enough.
Mr. Barker. No ; I didn't see him giving any orders.
Mr. Halley. What did you see him do?
Mr. Barker. He was either keeping the books or in the money room.
Mr. Halley. He walked in and out of the money room freely?
Mr. Barker. That is right.
Mr. Halley. That is something you never did?
Mr. Barker. No ; I had no business in there.
Mr. Halley. Who else went into the money room?
Mr. Barker. Well, if he had some assistants there, they probably
went in.
Mr. Halley. He must have had some assistants, isn't that right ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Then the answer is he had some assistants.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Not if he had some.
Mr. Barker. I suppose he had.
Mr. Halley. Who were the assistants?
Mr. Barker. That I wouldn't know.
Mr. Halley. How long did you work there ?
Mr. Barker. I will explain that to you too.
Mr. Halley. It will take a lot of explaining, Mr. Barker. Please
go ahead and try.
Mr. Barker. There was a back way to come in that money room, and
anybody could go in there and I wouldn't see them.
Mr. Halley. Did Kitty Klein ever go into the money room?
Mr. Barker. Probably he did.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him go into it?
Mr. Barker. That I couldn't say.
Mr. Halley. Why did you say probably he did ?
Mr. Barker. Well, because there was a little space there and a
door led into the money room. He used to sit in there. That is
where, if you wanted to know about any credits, he was in there.
64 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
He could get into the money room. He could get in there, and ma3'be
he did.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Joe Adonis at the L. & C. Amusement
Co. atLodi?
Mr. Barker. Probably have seen him there.
The Chairman. Mr. Barker, you know whether you have seen him
or not. Did you see him or not ?
Mr. Barker. Well, I wouldn't be sure, Senator.
The Chairman. You Imow Joe Adonis when you see him?
Mr. Barker. I must know him.
Senator Tobey. "V^^iy must you ?
Mr. Barker. They all say he was in there and if he was in there I
must have seen him.
Senator Tobey, Don't you know him and haven't you had conversa-
tions with him several times in your life ?
Mr. Barker. No, no.
Senator Tobey. If he walked in here you would know him, wouldn't
you?
Mr. Barker. Probably.
Senator Tobey. Why do you say probably? You would or you
wouldn't.
Mr. Baker. If he was there and I saw him.
Senator Tobey. I didn't say that. If he walked in the door you
would know him.
Mr. Barker. Probably.
Senator Tobey. You would know it was Joe Adonis. The answer
is "Yes," isn't it?
Mr. Barker. I have seen his picture in the paper a lot of times.
Senator Tobey. You have seen his face too, probably, face to face.
Mr. Barker. Probabl}^ I have.
Senator Tobey. Why do you say probably. You have or you
haven't.
Mr. Barker. I think I have.
Senator Tobey. Then say "Yes," and cut out this word "probably";
it is too ambiguous.
Mr. Barker. I will say "Yes" if it will help any.
Senator Tobey. When you went to work at this other joint, I don't
know where it was, a while ago you said you met him at Seventh
Avenue and went over there.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Senator Tobey. How about the Lodi place? How did you get
access there ? Who hired you there ?
Mr. Barker. Who hired me?
Senator Tobey. Yes, at Lodi. Who put j^ou on the job there work-
ing.
Mr. Barker. The same people that worked over there with us, the
boys that worked in the place went over there, some of them.
Senator Tobey. Who told you to come there ?
Mr. Barker. Mr. Goldfine might have called me.
Senator Tobey. You have these probable words that you use. You
have probably and might have. You have a good lexicon there. But
we want brass tacks. Was it Goldfine who called you or not?
Mr. Barker. I think it was.
Senator Tobey. Say "Yes" or "No."
ORGAXIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 65
Mr. Baekek, Suppose I was mistaken.
Senator Tobey. Because we take the chance on that. You give us
the testimony "Yes" or ''No."
JNIr. Barker. I will say '"Yes" to that.
Senator Tobey. Going ahead. When you got over to Lodi's how
about the modis operandi of salaries there?
Mr. Barker. Tlie same thing.
Senator Tobey. Did 3'ou get just an envelope in the same way?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Senator Tobey. What did you get?
Mr. Barker. $100.
Senator Tobey. What did the fellows under you get?
Mr. Barker. I don't know what they got.
Senator Tobey. You Avere over them, weren't you?
Mr. Barker. Sir?
Senator Tobey. You were over them, weren't you?
Mr. Barker. Yes, but I didn't ask them.
Senator Tobey. They were underlings?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Do you know what they got?
Mr. Barker. The same thing, I guess.
Senator Tobey. Money, check, cash, or what?
Mr. Barker. JSIoney.
Senator Tobey. Where did this crowd bank, do you know ? Wliere
did they bank their mone}' ?
Mr. Barker. I don't know anything about their money.
Senator Tobey. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Barker. I know nothing about their money at all. I have never
handled any of their money, aside from my salary. Nobody in those
places, dealers, have anything to do with the money.
Mr. Haleey. In 1947 you also worked at Saratoga, did you not?
Mr. Barker. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Halley. You worked there for the L. & L. Co. ?
Mr. Barker. That is w^hat is on there. I worked for it.
Mr. Halley. How did you get that job?
Mr. Barker. We all went from Lodi over there.
Mr. Halley. Who is we all ?
Mr. Barker. These dealers.
Mr. Halley. Who w^ere the dealers? Give us some names.
Mr. Barker. I think Mr. Waggoner worked there.
Mr. Halley. What is Waggoner's full name ?
M'r. Barker. Leon, I think.
Mr. Halley. Any others?
Mr. Barker. They were on the craps. I had nothing to do with
that.
Mr. Halley. Was there a Sammy Fishman?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was he a dealer?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was there a Bill Williams ?
Mr. Barker. No ; I don't think he worked in Saratoga.
Mr. Halley. But Fishman did ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And he also worked in Lodi, is that right ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
66 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, Halley. Did Jimmie Cohen work' at Lodi ?
Mr. Barker. Jimmie Cohen worked at Caldwell, but I can't re-
member whether he went down to Lodi or not.
Mr. Halley. Did he go to Saratoga ?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Halley. Did Mike Lascari work at Lodi ?
Mr. Barker. I don't know him.
Mr. Halley. You don't know Mike Lascari ?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Halley. L-a-s-c-a-r-i, Mike Lascari.
]\Ir. Barker, There wasnt' any dealer there by that name.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't he the cashier ?
Mr. Barker. Oh, there was a man by the name of Mike. I never
knew his last name.
Mr. Halley. Where was he the cashier ?
Mr. Barker. In Lodi.
Mr. Halley. Did he go to Saratoga ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. He did?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was there a man named Alex Goldfine ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. He was at Lodi ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr, Halley, He was also at Caldwell ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
]\Ir. Halley,
Mr, Barker, Yes,
Mr, Halley, At Saratoga where were you actually located ? Wliere
was the gambling ?
Mr, Barker, Where the clubhouse was ?
Mr, Halley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. A place called Arrowhead Inn.
Mr, Halley, Who was your boss there ?
Mr. Barker. Mr. Lynch was there. If he was the boss, I don't
know.
Mr. Halley. James Lynch ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Wlio offered you the opportunity to go to Saratoga
in the summer of 1947?
Mr, Barker. We all went there from Lodi,
Mr. Halley. You must at least have gone home and packed a
grip. Who told you you were going to Saratoga ?
]Mr. Barker, Everybody around there said we are going up to
Saratoga.
Mr, Halley, Who told you when to go and where to go ?
Mr. Barker. Who told me when to go ?
Mr. Halley. Yes,
Mr, Barker, They told me they were going to open there.
Mr, Halley, Who told you ?
Mr, Barker, Well, maybe Mr. Goldfine. I wouldn't be surprised
if he did.
Mr. Halley, I would like to know definitely and not maybe.
Mr. Barker. Well, I would say "Yes."
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 67
Mr. Halley. Yon would say "Yes"?
Mr. Barker. I would say "Yes," but maybe somebody else, but I
will say ''Yes'' anyhow.
Mr. Halley. Did you travel there alone or in the company of others
to Sai'atoga ? How did you get to Saratoga ?
Mr. Barker. On the train.
Mr. Halley. Did you go alone or with others ?
Mr. Barker. No; my wife went with me.
Mr. Halley. Who paid your carfare to Saratoga?
Mr. Barker. Who paid it?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Barker. I paid it myself.
Mr. Halley. You paid your own fare to get there?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where did you live there?
Mr. Barker. I lived at tlie Red Sandal.
Mr. Halley. Who paid your rent there?
Mr. Barker. I paid it.
Mr. Halley. What was your salary at Saratoga?
Mr. Barker. Before I went there I told Mr. Goldfine that I men-
tioned the fact to him that I couldn't go up there and pay the expenses
up there and my own expenses here, and when I got up there my first
week's check was more than $100.
Mr. Halley. What was it?
Mr. Barker. $250.
Mr. Halley. Who arranged that increase in salary ?
Mr. Barker. That I don't know.
Mr. Halley. You mean you went without any assurance that you
would get more money?
Mr. BapwKEr. I went, took a chance.
Senator Tobey. He knew Mr. Goldfine was a large-hearted man.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Goldfine wasn't the boss there?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Halley. With whom else did you have a conversation about
your salary at Saratoga ?
Mr. Barker. Nobod}'.
Mr. Halley. You are under oath. You understand?
Mr. Barker. I understand that.
Mr. Halley. You are now testifying that you did not discuss the
salary you were to receive at the ArroAvhead Inn, Saratoga, in 1947 —
please let me finish the question — with anybody except Mr. Goldfine?
Mr. Barker. Before I went there.
Mr. Halley. Before you went there,
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. After you got there with whom did you discuss it ?
Mr. Barker. I didn't discuss it with anybody. I thought I would
wait and see what I got.
Mr. Halley. You had no discussions at all?
Mr. Barker. Not at all.
Mr. Halley. How long did you work in Saratoga ?
Mr. Barker. I must have worked 4 weeks.
Mr. Halley. How many roulette wheels were there?
Mr. Barker. Well, I think we had six.
Mr. Halley. Then j-ou added one; is that right?
68 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Barker. And then I think when we mio-ht anticipate a big
ni^ht, we added another.
Mr. Halley. Business must have been real flourishing.
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Halley. If you had six wheels and added a seventh you must
have liad a lot of customers.
Mr. Barker. On one night, maybe.
Mr. Halley. On one night ?
]\Ir. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You mean you brought a wheel in ? Did you remove
it again ?
Mr. Barker. Night after night there might not be three wheels
going.
Mr. Halley. But you had seven on the premises ?
Mr. Barker. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Halley. You found it necessary to add the seventh ?
Mr. Barker. We added that anyway.
Mr. Halley. How many crap tables were there ?
Mr. Barker. Two ; I think there were two.
Mr. Halley. Wliat other gambling was there?
Mr. Barker. We had for awhile what you call a big six wheel.
Mr. Halley. What is that?
Mr. Barker. It is a wheel with numbers on it, where you put your
money down.
Mr". Halley. A vertical wheel ?
Mr. Barker. And if your number comes up you get paid.
Mr. Halley. What other gambling was there ?
Mr. Barker. None.
Mr. Halley.
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was Andrew Bruno in charge of the restaurant?
Mr. Barker. Bruno ? No ; I don't think he was there.
Mr. Halley. Who was in charge of the restaurant ?
Mr. Barker. That I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Who was in charge of the credit at the gambling?
Mr. Barker. Kitty Klein.
Mr. Halley. Who was in charge of purchasing supplies, do you
know ?
Mr. Barker. No. .
Mr. Halley. Do you know of a David Hyde ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What was his job there ?
Mr. Barker. He wasn't there.
Mr. Halley. He was not there ?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Halley. Was there also entertainment at the Arrowhead Inn ?
It was wide open to the public, is that right ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did people have to give any s])ecial signal to get into
the gambling room or was it just a part of the gambling room with the
doors open ?
Mr. Barker. The doors were opei>, but they generally had a man
there to keep out objectionable characters, people who were drinking
or anything of that kind.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 69
Mr. Hallet. But anybody from the restaurant could wander into
llie gambling room, is that right?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where did you work after you worked at the Arrow-
liead Inn in Saratoga ?
Mr. Barker. I came back to Lodi.
Mr. Halley. How long did you work at Lodi after you worked in
Saratoga ?
Mr. Barker. We came back from Saratoga, which probably would
be around the 1st of September, and I was there until the following
March.
Mr. Halley. 1948?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. March of 1948 ?
Mr. Barker. Since that I haven't worked.
Mr. Halley. When you returned to Lodi were conditions about the
same as you previously described them ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Have j'ou ever vvoi'ked at the Colonial Inn in Miami
Beach ?
Mr. Barker. Years ago.
Mr. Halley. Under Ben Marden ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you worked at any other gambling places at
Miami ?
Mr. Barker. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Or Miami Beach ?
Mr. Barker. No ; I take that back. It is so long ago, it is 25 years
ago.
Mr. Halley. You worked at Colonial Inn around 1939 or 1940, did
you not ?
Mr. Barker. But you asked me if I ever worked there, and I said
"No," in Miami Beach. I forgot that I worked there about 25 years
ago out in a place called the Jungle Inn.
Mr. Halley. How did you get to and from the gambling house at
Lodi?
Mr. Barker. Well, some of the boys would pick me up.
Mr. Halley. And take you out in an automobile ?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Who would pick you up ?
Mr. Barker. Well, perhaps the one that was most convenient.
Sometimes Mr. Kesler would pick me up, sometimes Mr. Goldfine
would pick me up, sometimes somebody else would pick me up.
Mr. Halley. Would they use a house car?
Mr. Barker. No.
Mr. Halley. There were house cars, were there not ?
Mr. Barker. Yes ; I believe so.
Mr. Halley. What were the house cars used for ?
Mr. Barker. I have to surmise about some of these things.
Mr. Halley. Please surmise.
Mr. Barker. I imagine they were to bring customers in.
Mr. Halley. From New York ?
Mr. Barker. Probably they were.
Mr. Halley. There is no doubt about it, is there ?
70 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Barker. I never had anything to do with any of that kind of
thing.
Mr. Halley. Look, you have been in that business, you have testi-
fied, for very many years, I think you said 40.
Mr. Barker. A little more, yes.
Mr. Halley. You had a very responsible job at Lodi and at Arrow-
head. You must have known what was happening.
Mr. Barker. Well, I am not very inquisitive. I don't go around
asking people what they do or who they are. This is a business with
me.
Mr. Halley. It is a business in which you must keep your eyes wide
open.
Mr. Barker. Yes ; for what I am doing.
Mr. Halley. How did the players get there, in these house cars?
Mr. Barker. I suppose lots of those players had their own cars.
I don't know that.
]\Ir. Halley. But you also know ; do you not ?
Mr. Barker. I wasn't on the door. I wasn't the doorman.
Mr. Halley. You know, do you not, that the house cars picked up
some playei-s in New York?
Mr. Barker. I don^t know that from my personal knowledge ; no,
sir.
Mr. Halley. You know it from your general observation.
Mr. Barker. I know that they had some cars around there. What
they did with them I don't know. They might have picked people up
in New^ York, I don't know.
Mr. Halley. We will offer in evidence the remaining income tax
returns and documents brought by the witness covering years 1947
and 1948. You already have before you the return for 1945.
Mr. Barker. I had no returns for 2 years.
The Chairman. They will be filed in evidence and made appro-
priate exhibits to Mr. Barkers testimony.
(The documents referred to were identified as exhibit No. 6, and
returned to the w^itness after analysis by the committee.)
Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. Barker. Yes, I know him.
Mr. Halley. What is your acquaintance with him?
Mr. Barker. Casual
Mr. Halley. He was one of the bosses at the Arrowhead Inn ; wasn't
he?
Mr. Bari^er. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. Did you see him at the Arrowhead Inn ?•
Mr. Barker. No ; I don't think I ever saw him.
Mr. Halley. You never saw him there?
IMr. Barker. I don't think so.
]\Ir. Halley. Did you see him at Lodi ?
Mr. Barker. I think I have seen him there ; yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did he have anything to do with the operation?
Mr. Barker. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. Did you see him in any other places at which you
worked ?
Mr. Barker. Any other places ; no.
Mr. Halley. Did you see him at Colonial Inn in Florida?
Mr. Barker. No, no; I don't think so.
ORGANIZEID CRIME EN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 71
Mr. Halley. Did you see him at Hasbroiick Heights?
Mr. Barker. No; I don't think I ever saw him there.
Mr. Halley. Did you know a man named Stacher ?
Mr. Barker. Xo. I don't know him by that name. Maybe I know
him. People have lots of names. I have only one.
Mr. Halley. No other questions.
Mr. Barker. Is that all?
The Chairman. No, just a minute.
Mr. Kostelanetz ?
Mr. Kostelanetz. No.
Senator Tobey. I would like to ask you this question : This gam-
bling, it is elementary to say, was illegal at Saratoga ?
Mr. Barker. I believe they have some kind of law in the State
of New York. I don't know just what it comprises.
Senator Tobey. Are roulette wheels and crap games legal in New
York?
Mr. Barker. Are they legal?
Senator Tobey. Yes.
Mr. Barker. I wouldn't think so because if there were there would
be a good many places around.
Senator Tobey. How did you account for the fact that the police
authorities at Saratoga never raided this place, did they, where you
were ?
Mr. Barker. Well, you are asking me something that I couldn't tell
you because I don't know anything about the authorities and Saratoga.
Senator Tobey. They never raided any of these places you have
been in, have they ?
Mr. Barker. Well, I think I have read of a few raids at Saratoga.
Senator Tobey. I mean when you were working at these places.
Mr. Barker. No.
Senator Tobey. Was protection in your judgment on the part of
the owners and the police authorities?
Mr. Barker. That I don't know.
Senator Tobey. Did you ever wonder why they didn't come down
like a ton of bricks on you and put you out of business ?
Mr. Barker. I never gave it a thought.
Senator Tobey. I see. I would like to have that happy state of
mind. It must be wonderful.
Mr. Barker. It is maybe a little hard to convince you about this
kind of business, but it is a very peculiar thing. You have to take
a lot of things on their face value.
Senator Tobey. Let me ask you, is there a group or a crew or an
entourage, put it that way, of wheelmen and crapmen and credit
men and men who operate these joints, who are a floating supply, and
when they move from A to B, from B to C, they send the word around
surreptitiously? Is there a group they call the faithful that they
can call up at the wave of a hand and you are on the job, is that it?
Mr. Barker. No. There are a lot of men who work in these places.
Some are more competent than others. If you are trying to get a
crew of men together, you try to get the most competent. You have
a lot of things to consider, I sup])ose, whether the men drink, whether
you can depend on them. I will say to you — you wonder why these
things happen, so I will have to cite an instance. If you were en-
72 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
f^aged in this business and you were in New York and the word got
out, which gets out very fast, because that is their livelihood, you
would have probably 100 letters and telegrams, and that is the way
they know. If you ask me did I know such and such a man who was
a wheel dealer, what about him, if I knew him or if I had ever had
any connection with him, I would say he is A-1, all right. That is
the way the information gets around.
Senator Tobey. There is a pool or reservoir of good men to operate
these places?
Mr. Barker. Oh, yes.
Senator Tobet, That are known as the faithful, so to speak, and they
call them up when they need them ; is that it ?
Mr. Barker. I suppose so; yes, certainly. They would naturally
pick somebody that they knew, that they had had in their place, and
they knew their reputations. They would probably send for him.
Senator Tobey. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Barker, you were never raided at Lodi or Sara-
toga or anywhere in New Jersey ?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. How long has it been since you have been in a place
that has been raided or where somebody has been arrested?
Mr. Barker. Well, I was in a place they raided once, but I had
nothing to do with it. They came in there.
The Chairman. How long ago was that?
Mr. Barker. Maybe around 1915 or 1912.
The Chairman. 1912 or 1915?
Mr. Barker. Yes.
The Chairman. Where is the last gambling place you operated in
New York City?
Mr. Barker. Here?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Barker. I haven't worked in here for a good many years.
The Chairman. How many years ?
Mr. Barker. I would say — I haven't worked in any gambling house
in New York City but maybe 2 days to help somebody out.
The Chairman. How long ago has that been ?
Mr. Barker. That has been 15 or 20 years ago.
The Chairman. Wliere was that ?
Mr. Barker. I think it was on Eighty-third Street.
The Chairman. Do you know the address?
Mr. Barker. No; I don't, because I was only there twice.
The Chairman. Do you know Patty Rock, the chief of police up at
Saratoga ?
JNIr. Barker. Patty Eock ; yes, I know him.
The Chairman. How do you happen to know him ? Where did you
meet him?
Mr. Barker. I used to go to Saratoga many years ago when Sara-
toga was Saratoga.
Senator Tobey. What is it now?
Mr. Barker. It is not much.
The Chairman. How long have you known Chief of Police Patty
Rock?
Mr. Barker. I will say this to 3'ou: That I wouldn't know Patty
Rock if he came in here.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 73
The Chairman. But do you know him ?
Mr. Barker. Well, I know who he was. He has been pointed out
to me.
The Chairman. Do you know him to talk with him personally ?
Mr. Barker. I think I have talked to him.
The Chairman. Would he come in to the Arrowhead Club ?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever see him in there ?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. AVhere would you see him when you talked with
him ?
Mr. Barker. I tell you there is a place up there called the Worden
House and almost everybody sits there sometime during tlie day.
There is no place to go except up and down that broadway. Some-
body might mention the fact that he is Patty Kock. Probably I have
spoken to him. ]\Iaybe he didn't speak to me. I might have spoke
to him. But it wasn't anytliing pertaining to gambling.
The Chairman. Did you ever see Patty Rock at any club that you
operated up there ?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. How many times have you operated in Saratoga?
Mr. Barker. How many times?
The Chairman. How many years.
Mr. Barker. I think I first went to Saratoga around maybe 1910
or 1911.
The Chairman. Since 1910 or 1911 you have been there off and on^
off and on ?
Mr. Barker. Off and on.
The Chairman. Have you ever operated in Westchester County?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. You never have ?
Mr. Barker. No.
The Chairman. Any further questions, gentlemen ?
Senator Tobey. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make an observa-
tion. Looking up on the wall is the picture of the late Chief Justice
of our Sujireme Court. When I was a young man, just married in
the early part of this century, I heard him speak when he was Gov-
ernor about the operation of the race track and gambling interests
in New York City. He inspired me then and he inspired me in many
ways, and I look on his face now and pay tribute to a great American
and a great Governor and a great statesman now gone to his reward.
I think it would do this committee good to look at his face and be
fired with the same zeal for duty and hatred of sin that that man had
in his soul.
Mr. Barker. You asked about knowing people, who the bosses
were. I worked for 2 years in Denver for a combination but I never
came in contact with any of them.
Senator Tobey. You are not supposed to be inquisitive. Yours
is not to reason why, yours but to take the salary and deal the cards.
Mr. Barker. As I told you, this is strictly a business. I had no
interest in anybody else. There is only one interest I had in it, when
they lay down the manila.
Senator Tobey. It wasn't very much, $100 a week.
68958— 51— pt. 7 6
74 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN DsTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Barker. Well, I ain't oetting it now.
It might help a little right now.
Senator Tobey. Somebody probably will call you up in the next 2
or 3 days and say come out some place.
Mr. Barker. Do you think they will?
Senator Tobey. I think so, a man as good and experienced as you
are.
Mr. Barker. I tell you, I will give you an answer to that. If
somebody called me up tomorrow and told me about some place I
could go to work, I would hand it right back to him as long as this
committee is in existence.
Senator Tobey. Thank you for that compliment.
The Chairman. We appreciate that, Mr. Barker.
Mr. Barker. I have told you anything that would help you.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Barker, you haven't told us as much
as we think you could tell us, but your information has been
informative.
Mr. Barker. I assure vou. Senator, that I have told you all I really
know. I cannot manufacture any stories.
The Chairman. We think you have been truthful about what you
have said, but your memory is not as good as it might be.
Mr. Barker. It might be. I am not so young.
The Chairman. Anyway, Mr. Barker, you will remain under sub-
pena, and if and when Ave need you we will call you.
Mr. Barker. That is all right. About those
The Chairman. We will see that they get back to you.
Mr. Barker. That is all right because I will need them for my
income-tax man.
The Chairman, They will be in good hands.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 45 p. m. the committee recessed until 2 : 15 p. m.
the same day. )
after recess
(The committee reconvened at 3 : 15 o'clock p. m.)
The Chairman. The committee will be in order.
Mr. Bernstein, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Bernstein. I do.
■ TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM BERNSTEIN, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. Your name is William Bernstein?
IMr. Bernstein. That is right.
Mr. Halu:y. Where do you live?
Mr. Bernstein. At the Essex House, IGO Central Park South.
Mr. Halley. What is your business?
Mr, Bernstein. I am the secretary and treasurer of the Wilmark
Services,
Mr, Halley. Wilmark
Mv. Bernstein. W-i-1-m-a-r-k, Service System.
Mr. Halley. In the year 1048 did you lose certain moneys
gambling?
Mr. Bernstein. I did.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 75
Mr. Halley. Was the total of that $19,700?
Mr. Bernstein. I wouldn't say that was the total. It might have
been in checks, but I took back some cash, maybe $4,500 in cash.
Mr. Halley. Where did you lose this money ?
Mr. Bernstein. In a place over in Jersey.
Mr. Halley. Do you know where the place is ?
Mr. Bernstein. No. All I know is that I was taken in an auto-
mobile. I have been suffering with a cold. I was taken in an auto-
mobile over the bridge.
Mr. Halley. The George Washington Bridge?
Mr. Bernstijn. The George Washington Bridge. You ride for
about three-quarters of an hour, and then there is a place where they
have second-hand automobile cars, and they take you through a
driveway into a dark spot. There was some man with a little service
light that opens the door and lets you in. There was a party of five
of us including my wife.
Mr. Halley. How did you arrange to go ?
Mr. Bernstmn. While I was sitting in the lobby, to my sorrow,
a fellow who is in the fur business said he heard of a gambling
place over in Jersey where you can get a nice steak dinner free. They
serve a wonderful meal, he said.
Mr, Halley. Who is this man ?
Mr. Bernstein. I knew him at the time. His name was Victor,
in tlie fur business, a fellow^ who hung around the lobby.
Mr. Halley. Victor what ?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't know his last name. That was the name
I knew him as, Victor.
Mr. Halley. Did he live in the Essex House?
Mr. Bernstein. He lived at the Essex House.
Mr. Halley. Have you learned his name since ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Now I know his name is Ceder, Victor Ce-
der. He suggested that we go over there. He said, "Do you want
to go alone." I said to my wife, "Do you want to go over to a
gambling place in Jersey?" I said, "We will lose a couple of hundred
dollars and come back." Instead of losing a couple of hundred dollars
we lost eight. I went over there two other times after that.
Mr. Halley. I see checks dated February 18, February 26, Feb-
ruary 27, and Marcli 10, 1948.
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Is that your recollection ?
Mr. Bernstein. It might be about that time,
Mr. Halley. Let me show you the checks.
Mr, Bernstein. I appeared before the district attorney with these
checks.
Mr. Halley. Are these your checks (handing checks to the wit-
ness) ?
Mr. Bernstein. That is correct, they are my checks.
Mr. Halley. What game did you play at this place?
Mr. Bernstein. Dice. My wife might have played some roulette
while I was playing dice.
Mr. Halley. Did Mr. Ceder introduce you ?
Mr. Bernstein. Mr. Ceder brought us over at the time.
Mr, Halley. How did you arrange transportation ?
76 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Bernstein. He said there is a car that calls for you. He says
he calls up a number and they send a car. In fact, he said he called
up a number and the car Avas coming' over, and do I want to go.
]\Ir. Halley. The car came right to the Essex House ?
Mr. Bernstein. To the Essex House ; yes.
Mr. Halley. And picked you up there 'i
Mr. Bernstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. There were two other people as well I
Mr. Bernstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Do you know the other people?
Mr. Bernstein. The live in the Essex House, too.
JVIr. Halley. Who are they ?
Mr. Bernstein. A man by the name of Brickman and a man by the
name of Glickman. One didn't play, and I think the other lost about
$100.
Mr. Halley. You went there on three occasions ?
Mr. Bernstein. As many occasions as that, because I came back
with cash. After the way I got this money — for instance, is there
a check for $8,700 ?
Mr. Halley. The first check is $8,700.
Mr. BERNS-rEiN. What I did there, I gave them a check for $8,700,
but the other check was, when I gave them the check, I got some cash
back w4th which I gambled some more.
Mr. Halley. May the record show that the first check is on the
Chemical Bank & Trust Co., dated February 18, 1918, signed by
Mr. Bernstein, endorsed on the back by James Lynch, and was de-
posited in the Merchants Bank of New York.
How much did you lose altogether on the four occasions?
Mr. Bernstein. I will say all told maybe about $14,000.
Mr. Halley. About $1-4,000 on four occasions?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Were there many people phiying at this establish-
ment ?
Mr. Bernstein. In this place?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Bernstein. I will say the nights I was there between 200 and
300.
Mr. Halley. How many crap tables were there ?
Mr. Bernstein. Two. The rest were playing roulette and then
there was a chemin de f er game there.
]\Ir. Halley. Were there other large losers that you could see ?
Mr. Bernstein. Mr. Halley, I was trying to make points. I was
sober. I went over there to get a free dinner. I wouldn't have
gone over the second time if I didn't try to get back what I lost the
first time.
Mr. Halley. And the third to get back what you lost the second
time.
Mr. Bernstein. I was just a damned fool for going over there just
like everybody else was.
Mr. Halley. Was a lot of money being placed at the tabl
Mr. Bernstein. Yes ; money w^as being played. There were three
abreast at each crap game.
Mr. Halley. What were the stakes? What was the smallest bet?
ORGAXIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 77
Mr. Berxsteix. The smallest bet I think was $5, and the biggest
bet, if I am right— I may be wrong on the smallest bet, bnt I know
the biggest bet was $200. '
Mr. Halley. On any one bet ?
Mr. Berxsteix. Oii any one number. Yon know what I mean.
In other words, yon could lay $200 on each number, you see.
Mr. Halley. You could put thousands down.
Mr. Berxsteix. But you could bet only $200 on the line, you see.
Mr. Halley. Would you say that while you were there the average
amount of money on the table during any one time was in excess of a
thousand dollars ?
Mr. Berxsteix. Oh, more than that.
Mr. Halley. More than $5,000 on the table at a time ?
Mr. Berxsteix. I would say around $2,000 at every play.
Mr. Halley. With every play.
Mr, Berxsteix. Easy. With three abreast and everybody fighting
to get into the table.
Mr. Halley. Fighting to put their money down.
Mr. Berxsteix. Fighting to lose their money.
Mr. Halley. Were you taken home again after you left this place?
Mr. Berxsteix. They gave you a car.
Mr. Halley. A card ?
Mr. Berxsteix. A car. You just s^y you want a car, and they give
you a car in front of the door. As you come out this dark place, five
of us jumped into a car' and were taken back to the Essex.
Mr. Halley. What games besides craps did you see playing there ?
Mr. Berxsteix. There was roulette and chemin de fer.
Mr. Halley. Mrs. Bernstein played roulette, you think?
Mr. Berxsteix. She played roulette ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Did she lose, too ?
Mr. Berxsteix. She lost about $300 each night.
Mr. Halley. Each of four nights ?
Mr. Berxsteix. Yes; and then she stood alongside of me rooting
for me.
Mr. Halley. I see. Did you get the free dinner ?
Mr. Berxsteix. Free dinner? By golly, it was the most expensive
dinner I ever ate in my life. I just remarked what a sad affair it was
that I had to stand at the settee at the hotel when this fellow came
along and remarked about a crap game over in Jersey. It was my
hard luck that I hadn't gone to a theater or had an appointment with
somebody.
But it is one of those things that happens in a person's life, and
I took it with a grain of salt and forgot about it.
Mr, Halley. There was a restaurant ?
Mr. Berxsteix. A restaurant — as you walk in there is a big restau-
rant. Then you go under an arch into the gambling end of it.
Mr. Halley. Was there any entertainment or just food?
Mr. Berxsteix. Just food, but food. They give you steaks and
steaks as a chaser and steaks and more steaks, and that thick. You
never saw such an assortment of food in your life. But they don't
charge anyone for their meals. Everything is free.
Mr. Halley. The meal is free.
The Chairmax. How about drinks. Free drinks ?
78 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Bernstein. All the drinks you want, but I don't drink, Senator.
Mr. Hallet. Would you have any qualms about appearing publicly
to testify about this ?
Mr. Bernstein. To appear and testify ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Bernstein. Well, Mr. Halley, I represent 23,000 corporations
in the United States, ancl I don't want these corporations to know that
I oro in and jramble, and so forth and so on. You know what I mean.
T happen to be one of the firm. I mean if I have to and it was going
do you a lot of good and it meant a lot, I wouldn't hesitate. You know
what I mean.
Mr. H ALLEY. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Bernstein, how much do you make a year?
Mr. Bernstein. How much do I make a year ?
The Chairman. Yes, just approximately.
Mr. Bernstein. Last year, Senator, my salary was $46,000.
The Chairman. Is that gross ?
Mr. Bernstein. No. That is before income tax.
The Chairman. That is what you paid a tax on.
Mr. Bernstein. Yes. I paid a tax on $46,000.
The Chairman. Is your home ]:)ermanently here ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, my home is at the Essex House.
The Chairman. Wiat kind of automobiles did they take you back
and forth in ?
Mr, Bernstein. A closed car.
The Chairman. A Cadillac?
Mr. Bernstein. I wouldn't know what the make of the car was.
The Chairman, A big black car ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes. You know. Listen, I wish to God that you
would stop all that gambling throughout the United States and if I
could help you, I would be the first one to come to the front for you.
The Chairman. I know how you feel about it, Mr. Bernstein.
Thank you very much for your cooperation.
Mr. Bernstein, You are quite welcome, I assure you.
The Chairman. How are you, doctor? Do you solemnly swear
the testimony you will give this committee will be the truth, tlie whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF THEODORE MOEICI, M. D., PASSAIC, N. J., ACCOM-
PANIED BY JOHN T. SULLIVAN, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Konstelanetz. Where do you practice medicine, doctor?
Dr. MoRici. Passaic, N, J.
Mr. KosTELANETz. How loug liave you been a doctor, sir?
Dr. MoRici. Twenty-five years.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Are you qualified in any particular specialty?
Dr. JVIoRici. Surgery.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Are you a diplomate in surgery?
Dr. MoRici. I am supposed to be a diplomate in surgery, yes.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Do you do any general practice at all, doctor ?
Dr. MoRici. Very, very little.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Do you know a Mrs. Joseph Doto?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 79
Mr. KosTELANETZ. How long have you known her?
Dr. MoRici. About 5 years.
Mr. KosTELANETz. How louf^ has she been a patient of yours, doctor ?
Dr. MoRici. She has been a patient of mine about 4 years.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Has she been visiting you regularly?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Did you do the surgery in her case ?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. How far is Passaic from your town, sir?
Dr. MoRici. Passaic from where?
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Where your town is, from the town you live in.
Dr. MoRici. I live in Passaic.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. I am very sorry. I withdraw that. How far is
the town in which Mrs. Doto lives?
Dr. MoRici. About 10 miles.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Do you know Mr. William Moretti, Doctor?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. How long have you known him ?
Dr. MoRK I. About 15 years.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Is he a patient of yours ?
Dr. MoRioi. Yes, sir.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Have you treated him in your specialty ?
Dr. MoRici. No. I have treated the family.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. I scc. Have you ever treated him before this
time?
Dr. MoRici. Yes. sir.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. How often would you say you have treated him ?
Dr. MoRici. In what way do you mean, sir ?
Mr. KosTELANETZ. lu your specialty?
Dr. MoRici. I never operated on him.
Mr. Kosit:lanetz. I am sorry, in any waj^, sir.
Dr. MoRici. In any way, well, since 1943. At that time I had to
treat him because he was becoming mentally unbalanced and we had
to send him to JNIidtown Hospital in New York for malaria treatment
and heat treatment. Every j^ear I gave him a course of certain kinds
of injections for this condition, twice a year. In 1946 he got his first
hemorrhage from the nose due to his hypertension, and on another
occasion he got another one. This time it was about half past 12 or
a q+iarter of 1 that I got a call from St. ]\Iary's Hospital where they
had rushed him with a sevei'e nosebleed. I took care of him there
and I admitted him to the hospital.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. ^Ylieu did you see him last, sir ?
Dr. MoRici. This morning.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. How far is the community in which Mr. ]\Ioi'etti
lives from your office ?
Dr. MoRicT. About 3 miles, 2 miles.
Mr. Halley. How soon do you think he will be able to appear to
testify?
Dr. MoRici. In about 10 days or so.
Mr. Halley. Will he remain in the hospital all that time ?
Dr. MoRici. He is going to stay in the hospital until Sunday.
Mr, Halley. Will he be available to testify Monday ?
Dr. MoRici. I think so.
80 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COAIMERCE
Mr. Halley. You think by Monday he will be able to testify ? I
think your letter stated his blood pressure was something like 200/110.
Dr. MoRici. That is right.
Mr. Halley. That is not unusually high ; is it ?
Dr. ISIoRiCL No. Sometimes you have a blood pressure of 300 and
don't get any trouble, but in certain people pressure is what we call
relevant to that particular person. A blood pressure of 300 in me
might not cause anything, and the pressure in him, where the brain
is already soft anyway, would give trouble.
Mr. Halley. Is he a competent witness ? Does he have his faculties ?
Dr. MoRici. To a certain extent.
Mr. Halley. Could you elaborate on that answer ?
Dr. MoRiCL I think he knows what he is talking about.
Mr. Halley. Is his memory impaired ?
Dr. MoRioi, He repeats a great deal.
Mr. Halley. Does he recall things ?
Dr. MoRici. He doesn't recall. Sometimes he says one thing and
then later on he repeats the same thing in maybe little different words.
Then he may elaborate on it. He is one of those fellows that has
grandiose ideas.
Mr. Halley. I am sorry I didn't hear that.
Dr. MoRici. Grandiose ideas.
Mr. Halley. But he does recall things that happened in the past I
Dr. MoRici. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Would it be injurious to his health to appear today ?
Dr. MoRici. Today, I don't think he should appear at all because
he is very, very nervous. He wanted to come down and I forbade him.
Mr. Halley. Would he be able to appear tomorrow ?
Dr. MoRici. No. I think he should stay in 1 week — in )3ed.
Mr. Halley. When did he go to bed ?
Dr. MoRici. He went to bed at 1 o'clock Monday morning, that
night. He went to the hospital Sunday night around 12 o'clock or
half past 12, somewhere around there, and I got this call, and that is
the time he went to bed.
]\Ir. Halley. He will remain in the hospital until Sundav ; is that
right?
Dr. MoRici. Until Sunday or Saturday.
Mr. Halley. On his leaving the hospital, you say he will be able
to testify?
Dr. MoRici. On leaving the hospital, he ought to go home, but that
is not my business. If his pressure is low enough, I will let him go.
His pressure today is much better than it was.
Mr. Halley. And then he could testify ?
Dr. JMoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. What is his blood pressure today ?
Dr. MoRicL Today it is 170/105.
Mr. Halley. That is really quite reasonable for a man of his age;
is it not ?
Dr. MoRici. As I said before, if you have arterio-sclerosis, you never
know when they are going to break.
Mr. Halley. With legarcl to your other patient, Mrs. Doto, how
long has she been a patient of yours ?
Dr. MoRici. About 4 years.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 81
Mr. Hallet. Do you know her husband, Joe Doto?
Dr. MoRici. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Dr. MoRici. About the same length of time.
Mr. Halley. Could you say through whose recommendation they
came to you ?
Dr. MoRici. Through Mr. Moretti.
Mr. Halley. Through Willie Moretti.
Dr. IMoRici. That is right.
Mr. Halley. They are friends ; is that right ?
Dr. MoRici. Thaf is right.
Mr. Halley. What is her condition at this time?
Dr. MoRici. Her condition at this time, you never know from one
minute to another. She had two pulmonary embolisms — infarcts,
we call them — one on the right and one on the left lung, and those
are the most dangerous things you can have. I may be sitting here,
and the minute I stand up I get one of those and they would cari-y
me out forever. She still has fluid in her lungs. She still has swelling
of her leg which the embolism originates from, and that might take
anywhere from 3 months to 5 years before it is absorbed to normal, if
it ever absorbs.
Mr. Halley. She goes about the house ; does she not ?
Dr. MoRici. Yes ; she is allowed the house, but she is not supposed
to be under any excitement.
Mr. Halley. How would excitement affect her ?
Dr. MoRioi. Excitement affects anybody that way. If she has
excitement, she would start to breathe faster; her heart would beat
faster, and it may be enlarged at any moment.
Mr. Halley. On the other hand, she does move around normally ;
is that right ?
Dr. MoRici. She doesn't do anything ; she just moves around. She
goes to the bathroom. She goes downstairs in the yard and takes
some sinishine, and that is all she does. She doesn't do a thing.
Mr. Halley. Does she atttend to her regular household duties?
Dr. MoRici. She doesn't do that.
Mr. Halley. Who does?
Dr. MoRici. She has a day nurse and night nurse, and she has a
lady who comes in to do the housework.
Mr. Halley. Is she at the present time under the care of nurses ?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long has she been under the care of nurses?
Dr. MoRici. Since she got out of the hospital.
Mr. Halley. When was that ?
Dr. MoRici. About July — 5 weeks after June 3. That would be
somewhere around July 4 or 5.
Mr. Halley. How long was she in the hospital ?
Dr. MoRici. Five weeks.
Mr. Halley. Was she under your treatment in the hospital ?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You were directly in charge of her case.
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you supervised her treatment ever since?
Dr. MoRici. Pardon?
82 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You have supervised her treatment ever since?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You know that slie lias nurses in attendance at this
time?
Dr. MoRici. I know what ?
Mr. Halley. You know that she has nurses in attendance at this
time ?
Dr. MoRici. I know because I put them on.
Mr. Halley. They have been there ever since ?
Dr. MoRici. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Is it your testimony that it would be injurious to her
health to appear as a witness?
Dr. MoRiGi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Is it your testimony that it would be dangerous to her
life to appear as a witness?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you feel that she could appear here if there were
no undue questioning and if she were asked some simple questions and
could leave without running the risk of experiencing difficuUies?
Dr. MoRici. She would run a risk by coming here. As a matter
of fact, after Mr. Sullivan told me that I should come up here, I in-
quired of several doctors and explained the case to them, and they
said that I would be crazy to let her go.
Mr. Halley. Who said that?
Dr. MoRici. Several doctors.
Mr. Halley. What are their names ?
Dr. MoRici. Do you want specific names?
Mr. Halley. Please.
Dr. MoRici. Surely, I will give you names. I have asked Dr. Lotana
and Dr. Costible.
Mr. Haij.ey. When did you talk to them ?
Dr. MoRici. When did I'talk to them?
Mr. Halley. Yes, when.
Dr. MoRici. This morning.
Mr. Halley. Wliei'e are they located?
Dr. MoRici. They are located in Passaic.
Mr. Halley. Are they familiar with the case personally?
Dr. MoRic'i. I explained the case to them. As a matter of fact, I
talked with different doctors on many occasions about that case to see
if there was anything else that could be done with her.
Mr. Halley. When did you last see her husband?
Dr. MoRici. Hpr husband I haven't seen for quite a while.
Mr. Halley. How long?
Dr. MoRici. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. A year?
Dr. MoRici. I would say a year. I saw him several months ago. I
saw him while she Avas at the hospital.
Mr. Halley. Do yon know the names of the nurses who are on the
case?
Dr. MoRici. Yes. One is Miss Lyons and the other one is Estelle —
I don't know the last name.
Mr. Halley. Are they registered nurses?
Dr. MoRici. One is a registered nurse and the other one is not.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 83
Mr, Halley. Are they nurses whom you obtained for her? Did
jou obtain these nurses for her? Did you arrange for their services?
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. If this committee appoints a doctor to look into the
matter, will you be willing to consult with him and show him your
records ?
Dr. MoRici. Certainly.
Mr. Halley. If he found it necessary to examine the patient, would
that be possible?
Dr. MoRicL Positively.
Mr. Halley. That is, with reference to Mrs. Doto.
Dr. MoRicL That is right.
Mr. Halley. With reference to JVIoretti, you say he will be able to
testify by Monday.
Dr. MoRici. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley; That is all I have.
The Chairman. Are you the physician for all of the Moretti family ?
Dr. Morici. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You are their family physician?
Dr. Morici. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. How about all the Doto family?
Dr. Morici. The Doto family, his immediate family.
The Chairman. You are the doctor for Mrs. Doto. How about
Mr. Doto?
Dr. Morici. Yes ; I take care of him.
The Chairman. You are their regular family physician.
Dr. Morici. That is right.
The Chairman. How far do you live from the Morettis?
Dr. Morici. I answered that question before; about 3 miles.
The Chairman. And from the Dotos ?
Dr. Morici. About 15 minutes' ride from my office.
The Chairman. All right, Doctor. We thank you.
Mr. Halley. Thank you, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Gale, do you solemnly swear the testimony
you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gale. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH T. GALE, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. Your name is Joseph T. Gale?
Mr, Gale. That is right.
Mr. Halley. AVhere do you live ?
Mr. Gale. 310 Riverside Drive, New York City.
Mr. Halley; AVhat is your business ?
Mr. Gale. Theatrical agency.
Mr. Halley. Did you lose a sum of money in gambling in the years
1947 and 1949? J fe fo J
Mr. Gale. I did.
Mr. Halley. Will you explain the circumstances to the committee?
Mr. Gale. I used to go out to a gambling house in Jersey.
Mr. Halley. Do you know the name of the establishment?
Mr. Gale. I don't think it has one.
Mr. Halley. How did you make the connection?
84 ORG.\XIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Gale. A friend of mine took me out there shortly after I came
out of the service.
Mr. Halley. What is the name of the friend ?
Mr. Gale. I don't remember.
Mr, Halley. Where did you meet this friend ?
Mr. Gale. It must have been somebody I had known, but at the
time — as you know, this is quite a number of years ago. and I never
gave any importance to having remembered who brought me out
there.
Mr. Halley. Where was this gambling establishment?
Mr. Gale. Somewhere in New Jersev.
Mr. Halley. ^Yhiit did it look like?'
Mr. Gale. From the outside — I always went there at night — it
looked like a big garage or barn or something of that sort from the
outside.
Mr. Halley. You went across the George Washington Bridge?
Mr, Gale. That is right.
Mr. Halley. How far out after you crossed the bridge?
Mr. Gale. I would say somewhere around a 20-minute ride.
Mr. Halley. Did they have a restaurant ?
Mr. Gale. That is right,
Mr. Halley. The food was free?
Mr. Gale. That is right,
Mr. Halley. Was it good food?
Mr. Gale. Excellent.
Mr. Halley. All you wanted of any kind ?
Mr. Gale. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Including liquor?
Mr. Gale. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And no charge for either ?
Mr. Gale. That is correct.
Mr. Halley. There were crap games and roulette and chemin-de-
f er, is that correct ?
Mr. Gale, That is correct,
Mr. Halley. At what game did you lose your money ?
Mr. Gale. Chemin-de-fer.
Mr. Halley. You went out almost throughout the entire vear of
1947, is that right?
Mr. Gale. That is correct.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever win?
Mr. Gale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Your checks for the period 1947 and 1948 totaled
$16,750. Would that represent a net loss?
Mr. Gale. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How much would you say you lost over the period ?
Mr. Gale, I would say probably four or five thousand, I never
kept any exact figures on that.
Mr. Halley. Did you invariably play on a cash basis or did you
have credit?
Mr, Gale, I always paid by check at the end of the evening.
Mr. Halley. Did you have chips?
Mr. Gale. Usually they advanced cash to me.
Mr. Halley, They advanced cash to you ?
Mr. Gale. That is right.
ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 85
Mr. Hallfa-. At the end of tlie evening you provided a check to
pay cash.
Mr. Gale. That is right.
Mr. Hallf.y. I have here a number of checks drawn by you mainly
on the Irving Trust Co.
Mr. Gale. Solely on the Irving Trust Co.
Mr. Halley. Are they solely on the Irving Trust ?
Mr. Gale. That is right.
Mr. Halley. I notice they were drawn to cash. Were you told to
draw them to cash ?
Mr. Gale. I think so.
Mr. Halley. Many of them bear the signature of James Lynch.
Do you know who James Lynch is?
Mr. Gale. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Some bear the signature of A. Laytore. Do you
know him ; who he is?
Mr. Gale. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. All seem to have stamped on them "Max Stark,
special.*' Do you know Max Stark?
Mr. Gale. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. They seem to have been put through the Merchants
Bank of New York. Will you glance through the checks and state
if they are your checks ?
Mr. Gale. They are.
Mr. Halley. Ifou have on a previous occasion examined them;
is that right ?
Mr. Gale. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. They total $16,750.
How did you get transportation to and from this place? Was it
provided by the house ?
Mr. Gale. That is right. You would call a number and tell the
operator where you wanted the car to pick you up.
Mr. Halley. Would you call a New York or New Jersey number?
Mr. Gale. It was a New Jersey number.
Mr. Halley. And the car would appear how long afterward?
Mr. Gale. Oh. anywhere from 15 minutes to half an hour.
Mr. Halley. When you were ready to leave, a car would take you
home ?
Mr. Gale. Or you called and told them when you wanted a car to
come.
Mr. Halijgy. No other questions.
The Chairmax. Mr. Gale, was all this gambling in just one place?
Mr. Gale. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Or did you visit several places ?
Mr. Gale. Just one.
The Chairman. How about Saratoga?
Mr, Gale. I have never been there to gamble.
The Chairman. You have never been there to gamble.
Mr. Gale. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Did you get to know who the owners or operators
of the place were ?
Mr. Gale. No, sir.
The Chairman. You look like you are a high-salaried man.
Mr. Gale. I have been doing fairly well, sir.
86 ORGANIZE'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIMERCE
The Chairman. What does your net income average a year?
Mr. Gale. I would say, since I came out of the service I have
been probably averagino; fifteen or twenty thousand a year.
The Chairman. Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobey. What is your business, Mr. Gale ?
Mr. Gale. In the theatrical business, sir.
Senator Tobey. IVIanagerial ?
Mr. Gale. Well, sort of a cross. We are basically a booking agency,
but we service our clients. In other words, our clients are all under
contract to us under an exclusive agency contract.
The Chairman. One question I forgot to ask you : Were a lot of
people there? About how many people were there usually when you
w^ere there ?
Mr. Gale. It w^ould be hard to estimate the number of people, but
the rooms were usually crowded. In other words, I imagine
The Chairman. Would you say 100 or 200 ?
Mr, Gale. I would say at least 200.
The Chairman. That was the average crowd there ?
Mr. Gale. I went there only on a Saturday night, so that is the
only night that I could speak of.
Senator Tobey. It may be too personal and if it is you need not
answer, but what did you patronize there, cards or roulette?
Mr. Gale. The cards.
Senator Tobey. What game did you play ?
Mr. Gale. Chemin-de-fer.
Senator Tobey. I see. Would you care to make a statement from
your operations in plajdng cards or roulette, has it been profitable or
not in the long run ?
Mr. Gale. Oh, I lost.
Senator Tobey. I M'as interested to know.
The Chairman. What is chemin-de-fer ?
Mr. Gale. It is a card game. I think there nre six decks of cards
that are shuffled together and placed in a shoe, in a long box with a
slot at the end from which one card at a time can be removed. The
banker and the player each receive two cards apiece. The idea of the
game is to learn who has cards totaling nine or closest to nine will
win. The player is permitted one draw, in other words, one additional
card, and so is the banker if he so desires. The first: two cards are
turned face down. The third card is turned face up. There are certain
rules to the game. For example, if you have a 8 or 9 you are not per-
mitted a draw. That is, you just turn your hand up and neither the
banker nor the player can have an extra card. Whoever has the highest
wins.
The Chairman. That is, nearest 9.
Mr. Gale. That is right.
The Chairman. But if you get over 9 you bust ?
Mr. Gale. No, there is no such thing as bust. If you have a total
of 17 in your cards, say a 9 and 8, you have 7.
The Chairman. All right. Anything else ?
Mr. Halley. Just one question. Did you observe the general size
of the pots in chemin-de-fer? The amount of money being spent ?
Mr. Gale. The maximum that you could have in one pot was a
thousand. In other words, you could not bet more than a thousand
dollars.
ORGAXIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 87
Mr. Halley. On a three-card pot ?
Mr. Gale. That is right.
Mr. Halley. How many chemin-de-fer dealers were there?
Mr. Gale. As a general rule, between 12 and 14 were at the table
at one time, no more.
Mr. Halley. As a general rule, were there at the table sums of
)noney at one time in excess of, say, $5,000?
Mr. Gale. Oh, yes'. On the table among all the players; oh, yes,
definitely.
Mr. Gale. I mean actively in play.
Mr. Gale. When you say "actively in play," if you mean on the
table, among all the players at the time ; yes.
Mr. Halley. You say there would be $5,000 or more actually in
play at one time?
Mr. Gale. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. What would be the minimum bet?
Mr. Gale. $20.
Mr. Halley. How many peoi:)le generally were in the establishment
when you were there?
Mr.'GALE. As I said, I imagine at least 200.
Mr. Halley. Would you be willing even to guess the amount of
money that crossed the table in a night ?
Mr!^ Gale. No.
Mr. Halley. It must have been up near $100,000.
Mr. Gale. I wouldn't even make a guess. I would say it would be a
fantastically large amount.
Senator Tobey. Was the game honestly conducted?
Mr. Gale. I should hope so.
Senator Tobey. You have experienced it. Do you think it is
lionestly conducted?
Mr. Gale. As far as I know, I think it was.
Senator Tobey. Where does the house make on it?
Mr. Gale. In the chemin-de-fer game, the house would cut 5 percent
of all the winning bets.
Senator Tobey. How did they happen in the first place to put you on
the favored list of clients to give transportation ?
JNIr. Gale. I had gone out there some time, I imagine in the earlier
part of 1946, and at that time I was introduced to one of the men out
there. From that time on
Senator Tobey. I see. Do you know any of the men, the leaders'
there ?
Mr. Gale. No, sir. There are only two of the men who I faintly
remember, and that would be two of the credit men.
Senator Tobey. Do they run on credit, too?
Mr. Gale. I imagine so, because after all I received credit, if only
until the end of the evening. It would be a thousand or two thousand
dollars. I was not considered a big player.
Senator Tobey. What would happen if a man gave a rubber check
for a thousand dollars?
Mr. Gale. That I don't know. I imagine things happen.
Senator Tobey. I imagine that has happened, human nature being
as it is. Do you know where they buried him ?
Mr. Gale. No, I don't know.
Senator Tobey. That is all I have.
88 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Giile. Thank you.
(Off the record.)
The Chairman. Mr. Haft, do you solemnly swear the testimony you
will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Haft. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ISIDORE HAFT, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Hallet. What is your full name?
Mr. Haft. Isidore Haft.
Mr. Halley. Wliat is your business?
Mr. Haft. Dress business.
Mr. Halijsy. What is the address where you do your work?
Mr. Haft. 36 Ellwood Street.
Mr. Halley. In Manhattan?
Mr. Haft. That is in the heights.
Mr. Halley. Did you give checks for $10,625 in 1947 and 1948 for
gambling ?
Mr. Haft. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to be introduced to this gam-
bling place ?
Mr. Haft. Introduced?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Haft. Well, some friends took me over there.
Mr. Halley. Who was your friend, do you know his name ?
Mr. Haft. Some acquaintance. I couldn't tell you just the name.
He used to call me up. They used to tell me there was a place there
to play chemin-de-fer, or craps.
Mr. Halley. What did you play personally?
Mr. Haft. Craps.
Mr. Halley. You played dice.
Mr. Haft. Dice, that is right.
Mr. Halley. Was the place known to you as the Lodi place?
Mr. Haft. There was everything there, roulette.
Mr. Halley. No, what was the name of the place where you went?
Mr. Haft. I don't know the name.
Mr. Halley. You called the place Lodi, didn't you?
Mr. Haft. No, they called me up and gave me a telephone number
and whenever I wanted to go I should call up this number and they
would send me a car.
Mr. Halley. Did you know it as Charlie's ?
Mr. Haft. No.
Mr. Halley. No name at all ?
Mr. Haft. No name at all. Just a telephone number.
Mr. Halley. Who gave you the telephone number?
Mr. Haft. They would call me up and I took the telephone number
down. Whenever I wanted a car I called up.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember the telephone number?
Mr. Haft. There were so many different ones. Every now and then
they gave me a different number.
Mr. Halley. How would you get back home again ?
Mr. Haft. By car.
Mr. Halley. They would give you a car?
ORGAXIZE.'D CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 89
Mr. Haft. They would give a car ; yes.
Mr. Halley. The car would bring you back to New York.
Mr. Haft. Back home, yes.
Mr. Halley. You went on a great many occasions in 1947, did you
not?
Mr. Haft. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you lose a total of $10,625 ?
Mr. Haft. No, I didn't lose that all.
Mr. Halley. How much would you say you lost?
Mr. Haft. Well, maybe a couple of hundred, probably seven or
eight hundred, because I gave checks whenever I lost.
Mx. Halley. You gave checks for your losses, but your winnings
you took home in cash.
Mr. Haft. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you get free dinner there ?
Mr. Haft. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And drinks ?
Mr. Haft. That is right.
Mr. Halley. How many people were generally there when you
were there ?
Mr. Haft. A lot of people.
Mr. Halley. A couple of hundred ?
Mr. Haft. A couple of hundred.
]\Ir. Halley. How many crap tables were there ?
Mr. Haft. I recollect something like two or three.
Mr. Halley. Was the meal that you got a good one ?
Mr. Haft. Well, anything you want.
Mr. Halley. Anything you wanted.
Mr. Haft. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And all the liquor you wanted ?
Mr. Haft. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What was the smallest bet at the crap table ?
Mr. Haft. $5.
Mr. Halley. And what was the limit ?
Mr. Haft. I think about $300, 1 believe.
Mr. Halley. On any roll of the dice how much money would there
be generally on the table ? Would it be in the thousands ?
Mr. Haft. Well, I couldn't — sometimes there were two or three
bettors, sometimes there were to capacity.
Mr. Halley. When the place was crow^ded would the table have a
lot of money on it ?
Mr. Haft. Chips, no money.
Mr, Halley. Chips, but they were big chips, weren't they ?
Mr. Haft. There were $5 chips, and $25 chips, and $100 chips, I
think.
Mr. Halley. When the game was really going well and the dice
were being played, there would be a feW thousand dollars bet on the
table constantly, wouldn't there? ,
Mr. Haft. I suppose so.
Mr. Halley. Isn't that what you saw ?
Mr. Haft. I saw a lot of chips. I wouldn't count them.
Mr. Halley. You would see a lot of $100 chips though.
68958— 51— pt. 7 7
90 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Haft. Sometimes I didn't see hundred dollar chips at all.
Sometimes the fellows couldn't play with that sort of chips. They
would play with fives and twenties.
Mr. Halley. Would you say, though, that a great deal of money
was passed.
Mr. Haft. Oh, sure.
Mr. Halley. A very, very great amount?
Mr. Haft. It was quite a bit. Sometimes all of a sudden you would
see it half empty. They would go away. They would win and go
away, or they would go away broke.
The Chairman. These checks were all endorsed. The endorsement
is James Lynch, Max Stark, special, T. B. Harms. Two checks A.
Laytore.
Senator Tobet. What bank did those go through ?
Mr. Halley. These are all Merchants Bank here in New York City.
They are not Pennsylvania.
Senator Tobey. The Pennsylvania Exchange Bank is here in this
city.
(Off the record.)
The Chairman. Any questions. Senator Tobey ?
Senator Tobey. You went there a good many times ?
Mr. Haft. Just as many times
Senator Tobey. You felt at home there?
Mr. Haft. Practically, you know, to have a good time.
Senator Tobey. They gave you a good greeting.
Mr. Haft. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Who gave the glad-hand mostly ?
Mr. Haft. We didn't see any — they didn't ask you anything over
there about who you are or where you are or nothing.
Senator Tobey. Did you talk with any of the men who run the place
there, their leaders ?
Mr. Haft. Only when I gave the check to the man who gave me the
chips, when I presented the check.
Senator Tobey. What are the names of some of the men there?
Mr. Haft. I don't recollect any of the names. Only one fellow
that I gave the check.
Senator Tobey. What was his name ?
Mr. Haft. I think his name was Milton.
Senator Tobey. Milton what ?
Mr. Haft. I don't know his second name.
Senator Tobey. It wasn't John Milton, was it?
Mr. Haft. No, no.
Senator Tobey. That is all I have.
Mr. Haft. His first name was Milton. That is all I know.
The Chairman. All right, thank you, Mr. Haft. That is all.
Mr. Tausend, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give
this committee will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
TESTIMONY OF FEANCIS TAUSEND, NEW YORK CITY, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Tausend, what is vour address?
Mr. Tausend. 115 Central Park West.
Mr. Halley. What is your business ?
Mr. Tausend. I am in the importing business.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 91
Mr. Halley. With what company ?
Mr. Tausend. With Felix Tausend & Sons.
Mr. Halley. Are you the principal in that business ?
Mr. Tausend. One of them.
Mr. Halley. You are a partner?
Mr. Tausend. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. During 1947 and 1949 did you have occasion to draw
a number of checks in connection with a gambling game in New Jersey ?
Mr. Tausend. I did, sir.
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to leani about this gambling
game ?
Mr. Tausend. At one time I received a card with a phone niunber.
Senator Tobey. What did the card say ?
Mr. Tausend. In reference to dining room opening, or words to
that effect. I knew it referred to that. With a separate card with a
phone number on it. I called and they sent a car for me. We used
to go over there.
Mr. Halley. Did any individual tell you about the place?
Mr. Tausend. No.
Mr. Halley. You must have heard it from somebody, did you not?
Mr. Tausend. Through the card.
Mr. Halley. Only through the card ?
Mr. Tausend. Only through the card.
■ Senator Tobey. How did you know Avhat the card meant?
Mr. Tausend. I had an idea it was and 1 called and that is what it
was and I Avent over.
Senator Tobey. What did they say when you called ?
Mr. Tausend. I asked about it, and they said yes, it was a casino
and I went over. They received my name, I was interested to know,
from a place that 1 used to go before because they were most of the
same familiar faces from the same place.
Mr. Halley. Had you been to the other places in Jei*sey as well ?
Mr. Tausend. That is where I think they received my name, from a
place called the Riviera a year ago.
Mr. Halley. Ben Marden's place ?
Mr. Tausend. That is right.
Mr. Halley. How much of the total amount, which I see is $7,100
in checks you drew, would represent the net losses on your part?
Mr. Tausend. A lot of those checks represented checks that I
cashed over there. They didn't exactly represent losses. There were
times I did win. Other times those checks were cashed for friends
of mine who did go over that I advanced the money who repaid me
later on.
Mr. Halley. I see from May 1947 to January 10, 1948, there is a
total of 11 checks, totalling $7,100. Are j^ou in a position to say how
much you lost over that period ?
]\Ir. Tausend. I believe I can. I think that in 1947 I figured that
1 lost roughly around $800 personally.
Mr. Halley. And in 1948 ?
Mr. Tausend. In 1948 it was a little more than that. sir.
Mr. Halley. In 1948 you had only $2,000 in checks. Would they
represent mainly losses?
Mr. Tausend. That is what it is, because in 1948 I know I lost more
than I did in 1947.
92 ORGAA^ZEID CRIME IN liSTTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. They provided the transportation back and forth?
Mr. Tausend. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You would telephone and the car would come to your
house ?
Mr. Tausexd. That is right.
Mr. Halley. When you were ready to leave they would provide a
car back?
Mr. Tausend. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. How many people would be there at a time?
Mr. Tausend. I would be only guessing when I say maybe 150 or
200 people, something like that,
Mr. Halley. What game did yon yourself play?
Mr. Tausend. I played mostly the roulette wheel.
Mr. Halley. What were the stakes at the roulette game?
Mr. Tausend. For the women I believe it was quarter chips, and
for the men 50-cent chips or higher if you wanted to play higher.
Mr. Halley. Was there any maximum?
Mr. Tausend. I won't be able to answer that because I never went
that high. I wouldn't know any maximum.
Mr. Halley. As a rule, how many people would be around the
roulette tables? Could you guess?
Mr. Tausend. They had quite a few tables there, sir. At one table
there might have been eight or nine, and maybe others standing behind
them waiting for a color or something like that.
Mr. Halley. With each turn of the wheel how much money would
there be bet, would you say generally speaking? I know it varies
tremendously.
Mr. Tausend. I would be only guessing, sir.
Mr. Halley. Give your best recollection. You can probably vis-
ualize it. Were these wheels busy?
Mr. Tausend. Yes.
Mr. Halley. With money on almost every number.
Mr. Tausend. They were very active.
Mr. Halley. Of course there are 38 numbers on a roulette wheel
in addition to the black and white, even and odd. If there was active
play there could easily be a couple of hundred dollars on every turn
of the wheel.
Senator Tobey. Is this at Lodi?
Mr. Halley. This was at Lodi, was it not ?
Mr. Tausend. We went over Washington Bridge in the direction
of Paterson. I believe it was around 15 minutes from the other side
of the bridge. Where Lodi is — mostly I have been there — I don't
know. I wouldn't know if I was in Lodi, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any qualms or worries about being
there, obviously in the company of a lot of thugs ?
Mr. Tausend. I never pictured it that way.
Mr. Halley. Suppose — did you ever visualize what you would do
if you won $25,000 and had to get home with it?
Mr. Tausend. I don't think that would ever happen to me. I mean
I never was that steep of a gambler. I don't think I would ever have
the chance of winning $25,000.
Mr. Halijsy. Did you have any concern about the people who ran
the place and the company you were in?
Mr. Tausend. At the time, no.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN IXTERSTATE COMMERCE 93
Mr. Halley. The patrons for the most part appeared to be very nice
l^eople, would you say ?
Mr. Tausend. Definitely so.
Senator Tobey. Had you been fortunate enougli to win $25,000, do
you think you would have arrived home with it ?
Mr. Halley. You live in the Majestic Apartments?
Mr. Tausend. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Costello?
Mr. Tausexd. I have heard of him. I have seen him. I don't
know him.
Mr. Halley. He lives in your building, doesn't he ?
Mr. Tausend. I know he lives in the building.
Mr. Halley. It is a very large building; I know that.
Mr. Tausend. I think there are a couple hundred tenants.
Mr. Halley. You don't know him?
Mr. Tausend. No.
Mr. Halley. Who is David Harris, the payee of one of your checks?
Mr Tausend. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was he a friend to whom you made it out and then
endorsed it over ?
Mr. Tausend. No.
Mr. Halley. All of your checks appear to have been endorsed James
Lynch. Do you know who he is ?
Mr. Tausend. No.
Mr. Halley. And apparently then endorsed Max Stark, special.
Do you know Max Stark ?
Mr. Tausend. The only way — I don't know him, but he was pointed
out to me when I was called for the hearing by the State.
Mr. Halley. On Max Stark?
Mr. Tausend. On Max Stark. That is the first time I ever saw
him.
Mr. Halley. Your checks were all deposited in the Merchants
Bank, is that right, in New York ?
Mr. Tausend. I believe so.
Mr. Halley. If it so appears on their face, that would be your
understanding, is that right ?
Mr. Tausend. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Tausend, I was interested in your saying you
think they got your name from the Riviera that you used to go to.
Mr. Tausend. That is my own idea, Senator, because the same peo-
j)le were the same players that were over there. I had an idea there
was a list of them.
The Chairman. When was it you would go to the Riviera ? How
many years ago?
Mr. Tausend. That would be about 10 years ago or so.
The Chairman. But the same players and the same fellows in the
gambling room were there that later on were over in this place in
194T?
Mr. Tausend. That is right.
The Chairman. A^-liat other places did you go to in New Jersey?
Mr. Tausend. I went to a place in — that was quite a few years ago
now, and I am trying to recollect — South of Paterson.
The Chairman. When was that?
94 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN ETTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Tausend. That might have been in 1942 or so. I don't Imow.
The Chairman. Did yon see the same people there that yon saw
at this place in 1947 and" '48?
Mr. Tatjsend. No.
The Chairman. They were different?
Mr. Tausend. They were different.
The Chairman. Do you know Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Tausend. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Jerry Catena ?
Mr. Tausend. No, sir.
The Chairman. Anthony Guarini?
Mr. Tausend. No, sir.
The Chairman. How about Saratoga? Did you ever play up
there ?
Mr. Tausend. Yes, once.
The Chairman. Where did you play there ?
Mr. Tausend. There is a great big dining room.
The Chairman. Arrowhead Inn ^ Do they have a floor show and a
restaurant?
Mr. Tausend. That is right, sir. I am not sure if it is Arrowhead
Inn, but they did have a restaurant.
The Chairman. Did you see some of the same people there that you
saw over here in New Jersey ?
Mr. Tausend. No, sir.
The Chairman. When was it you were playing at Saratoga ?
Mr. Tausend. Quite a few years ago.
The Chairman. Five years ago ?
Mr. Tausend. Around five.
The Chairman. Was it wide open ? Could you go in the restaurant
and eat and then find out there was a gambling place in the back
and go on in ?
Mr. Tausend. Yes ; walk right in, sure.
The Chairman. Could you walk right in the place over here in
New Jersey ?
Mr. Tausend. From the restaurant, but not walk right in to the
restaurant ; no, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Senator Tobey ?
Senator Tobey. You couldn't drive over there in your own car,
could you i
Mr. Tausend. I never did, sir.
Senator Tobey. None of the patrons do, do they ? They had to be
ferried over by the company's cars, didn't they ?
Mr. Tausend. That is what I understood.
Senator Tobey. So you couldn't go there again if you wanted to.
You wouldn't know where it was, is that right? You couldn't find it?
Mr. Tausend. I wouldn't know where it was, no.
Senator Tobey. Did you win or lose in the long run ?
Mr. Tausend. I lost in the long run, sir.
Senator Tobey. Did you feel the gambling was conducted fairly
and that you got a fair deal ?
Mr. Tausend. I did.
Senator Tobey. You didn't know the names of any of the officials
or head men there at all? It was entirely impersonal? You just
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 95
walked in and did your betting and didn't call anybody by name
and they didn't call you by name.
Mr. Tausend. They called me by my initials, sir. Mr. "T."
Senator Tobey. Is that the custom to call the different patrons by
their initials?
Mr. Tausend. That is right.
Senator Tobey. So they could say "Mr. CWT," and you would know
that was you and me.
Mr. Tausend. That is right.
Senator Tobey. That was done so people wouldn't know who the
patrons were.
Mr. Tausend. I don't know what the idea was but I know that is
the system they used.
Senator Tobey. When you bet you gave them your check.
Mr. Tausend. Sometimes I did and other times I went in and I
cashed a check ahead of time and gave some of the money to my wife
and some to the friends who went along with me and they used it.
Senator Tobey. That is all I have.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Arkin, will you hold up your hand. Do you solemnly swear
the testimony you will give this committee will be the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Arkin. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JACK W. ARKIN, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Mr. Arkin, what is your full name and address?
Mr. Arkin. Jack W. Arkin, 36 Central Park South.
Mr. Kostelanetz. What is your business address?
Mr. Arkin. 137 West Forty-eighth Street.
Mr. Kostelanetz. What is your business, Mr. Arkin ?
Mr. Arkin. I am the booking agent for the Playhouse Theater. I
book the shows in the Playhouse.
Senator Tobey. That is movies ?
Mr. Arkin. No ; legitimate theater.
Mr. Kostelanetz. How long have you been doing that kind of
work?
Mr. Arkin. For the last — since I returned from the Army in 1946.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Is Mr. Ben Marden one of the owners of that
theater ?
Mr. Arkin. Yes.
The Chairman. What is the name of the theater ?
Mr. Kostelanetz. Playhouse Theater, a legitimate theater in New
York.
What percentage of ownership does Mr. Marden have ?
Mr. Arkin. That I don't know.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Is he the president of the corporation which
owns the theater?
Mr. Arkin. I don't think so. I don't know. I woulcbi't know what
office he held.
Mr. Kostelanetz. What is the name of the corporation?
Mr. Arkin. Playhouse Enterprises, Inc.
Mr. Kostelanetz. How long have you known Mr. Marden ?
Mr. Arkin. About 25 years.
96 orgajSiizeid crime in interstate commerce
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Have you had business relations with him out-
side of this Playhouse deal ?
Mr. Arkin. Yes.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. What relations did you have with him ?
Mr. Arkin. Ben Marden's Riviera, from 1933 to 1942.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. What was the nature of the relationship?
Mr. Arkin. I worked for Ben Marden.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Wliat did you do ?
Mr. Arkin. I was the maitre d'hote of Ben Marden's Riviera.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Specifically what did that amount to?
Mr. Arkin. Well, I was in charge of the floor. In other words,
I had charge of the cafe floor, in charge of the waiters, in charge of
the service.
Mr. KosTELANETZ, Tlicu from 1942 to 1946 you were in the Army?
]\Ir. Arkin. I was in the Army.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. And now from 1946 on did you go back with
Mr. Marden ?
Mr. Arkin. In the Playhouse Theater ; yes.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. That has been your sole occupation; is that
right?
Mr. Arkin. That is right, that has been it.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Now directing your attention to last summer,
the summer of 1949, I should say, did you and Mr. Marden go to
Europe ?
Mr. Arkin. I was over there in 1949.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Oil wliat boat did you go, sir?
Mr. Arkin. We flew Air France.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Call you place the month?
Mr. Arkin. April or May of 1949.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. How many people were in your party?
Mr. Arkin. Five.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. All of you traveling together ?
Mr. Arkin. Yes.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Will you give us the names of those people?
Mr. Arkin. Alfred McCosker, Robert Hernandez. The other was
a Cuban, and was a friend of Bobbie Hernandez, whose name escapes
me at the moment. He is Congressman in Habaiia. He is a Cuban
Congressman.
The Chairman. That is just three.
Mr. Arkin. Marden and myself.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Before you left the States were there any inti-
mations or negotiations pending toward the prospect of purchase of
an interest in the Monte Carlo Casino ?
Mr. Arkin. Do you mind giving me that again?
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Before you left the States did you have any
conversation with anyone on the subject of buying the Monte Carlo
Casino ?
Mr. Arkin. No.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. There did come a time in France when the
subject of purchasing the casino came up, is that right?
Mr. Arkin. That is right.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Will you tell us how it came up and who par-
ticipated in the conversations, and give it to us as chronologically
as you can.
ORGANIZEJD CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 97
The Chairman. Starting with about the date in France when this
started.
Mr. Arkin. The date would have been in the spring of 1949. Our
mission and the purpose and reason for going over to Europe was to
acquire a show or shows for the theater. While in Europe, a friend
approached us, or it was a broker, I don't remember which — it was a
friend of ours, an American living at the hotel in Paris. We then
went to the South of France and met the principals of the Monte
Carlo Casino.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. You say a friend approached you. Who was
that, sir ?
Mr. Arkin. I think it was a fellow by the name of Jack Van Allen.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Where did he live in France?
Mr. Arkin. At the Ritz Hotel.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. When you say he approached you, did he ap-
proach Mr. Marden ?
Mr. Arkin. Yes. I might not have been present the day or the
moment that he talked with Marden, but I knew of it soon afterward.
In other words, we all proceeded to the South of France where we
met the manager of the Monte Carlo Casino.
iNIr. KosTELANETZ. You say to the South of France. Which city?
Mr. Arkin. We went to Cannes.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Where did you stay in Cannes?
Mr. Arkin. At the Carlton Hotel.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Wliicli of the Monte Carlo people did you meet?
Mr. Arkin. We met a Mr. Laroux. He is the manager or presi-
dent of the corporation. I have forgotten which. I rather think
the manager of the Monte Carlo Casino Corp.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Anybody else?
Mr. Arkin. We met the lawyer for the corporation as well, sat
in his office there at Monaco and chatted with him for maybe 15 or 20
minutes, which was the one and only time I ever met him.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Is the lawyer's name Caesar Salimito ?
Mr. Arkin. That is right, Salimito.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Anybody else representing the ]Monaco people?
Mr. Arkin. Not to my recollection.
]Mr. KosTELANETZ. Will you give us the substance of those negotia-
tions ? What happened ?
Mr. Arkin. At that particular time the Monte Carlo Casino Corp.
were interested in adding a new game to Europe, a crap game, an
American crap game, and they had sent several of their dealers or
men over here to this country to apprise themselves of how the game
was run. It was just at that time that we were in Europe. The
manager, this Mr. Laroux, was very anxious to have us join forces
with them. That was the sum and substance of the whole thing, for us
to join forces with them, particularly handling the American crap end
of it, crap game. That was it.
jNIr. KosTELANETZ. Was there any more negotiation? These are the
early conferences ?
Mr. Arkin. Yes.
]Mr. KosTELANETZ. Did the conferences take a turn later to some
other kind of a deal ?
Mr. Arkin. Much conversation took place. ISIuch entertaining took
place, sure, and it continued on over a period of a month or two.
y» ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
I think we went back a second time. We weren't particularly inter-
ested, or not seriously interested in this Monte Carlo deal, and the
reason for that was that there was no deal. We at no time could
figure out how we could participate in the Monte Carlo Corp.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Let me see if I can help you. Is it correct that
the Monte Carlo Corp. was operating at a pretty bad loss, isn't that so ?
Mr. Arkin. That is right.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Partially because the large gamblers no longer
came to Monte Carlo. There weren't many of them around.
Mr. Arkin. That is right.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Partially because the Prince was exacting a
pretty good royalty out of Monte Carlo.
Mr. Arkin. Not to my knowledge. I don't think that is partic-
ularly true. This Prince had just come into power; his grandfather,
the former Prince, had died, and he had just come in, the young Prince,
the present Prince, had just come into power. I don't think he was
exacting anything too great, or he hadn't been taking anything out
of the corporation. That was our belief or our understanding at the
time. He didn't have time. I think he had just become the Prince
within a month or a week, something like that, of the time I speak of.
Mr. KOSTELANETZ. Did there come a time, however, when there were
negotiations looking toward the purchase of the controlling interest
in the casino ?
Mr. Arkin. Half-heartedly ; yes.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Isn't it a fact that there was a bid made for the
stock?
Mr. Arkin. Not to my knowledge ; no.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Does the sum of $5,000,000 mean anything to you
in relation to the purchase of the casino?
Mr. Arkin. The sum of $5,000,000 means a lot to me, but not with
reference to that ; no. Not even for the record, because it would be
a lot of conversation and it is unimportant
The Chairman. We think it is interesting, if not important. So go
ahead and tell us about it, Mr. Arkin.
Mr. Arkin. If you have time. We at no time— again I am repeating
myself — were seriously interested because there was another group
headed by a Parisian banker, I believe he was an Italian but he was
a Parisian banker, and he had a group of them, among them a ship-
ping magnate, a Greek, another party was an art connoisseur, from
one of the well-known families of France. I say that because we had
occasion to be entertained by them. They on the one hand were
trying to acquire the stock of the Monte Carlo Casino Corp., while
on the other hand the directors and officers of the then Monte Carlo
Casino Corp. didn't want to get pushed out. It was to their best inter-
est to stay in. The new prince, the young prince, was anxious to get
American interests interested in Monte Carlo, but he had no stock,
and this is or was a regular stock corporation, the same as we would
have here in this country. If I remember correctly, there were some
ninety-odd-thousand stockholders scattered all over the world. At a
meeting of the banker and his group they had told us that they had
acquired some fifteen or twenty thousand shares of the stock. 1 have
forgotten exactl;^ how many. They, too, were anxious to have us come
with them, knowing that we were dealing with the prince and his party.
While we never met the prince, we did meet this little lawyer, Salimito.
ORGANIZE© CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 99
We finally left there feeling complimented that we had been invited
into such a fantastic deal. It involved some seven big hotels in Monte
Carlo, together with three casinos. They weie beautiful, gorgeous
casinos. So we felt flattered, I guess.
Senator Tobey. What was the price ?
Mr. Aekin. There was no price on it, sir. We had never gotten to
a x^rice. We never talked price. This thing is controlled by a cor-
poration. The one side wanted us to come in with them on a stock basis.
As I said, they had 15,000 or 20,000 shares. They thought if we could
acquire 15,000 or 20,000 shares and added to what they had, we might
get control. That was the banking group. The other group that
were in power at the time were offering us a management job. Wlien
I say management, to take over the crap end of it which they knew
nothing about. So we were a bit flattered and complimented.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Let me ask you this, Mr. Arkin. Was there any
program suggested by you people whereby you would take over the
hotels and fly American tourists in under an arrangement where Amer-
ican tourists would pay about $2 a day for bread and board at hotels
and could patronize the casino?
Mr. Arkin. I don't think we ever boiled it down to $2 a day.
Mr. KosTELANETz, Or thereabouts.
Mr. Arkin. Not even thereabouts. There certainly was no con-
versation on that score because that would have been ridiculous. We
would have given a good customer board and bread, as you call it, for
free rather than charge him $2, so there would have been no such
conversation. Sure, we talked of flying people in in the course of
conversation with the managers or directors of the Monte Carlo Casino.
It was all part of their asking us what we would do if we would run
the American crap game. We said it would be to your best interests
probably to fly Americans over. Certainly if they were in Europe
we would fly them down to the south of France to Monte Carlo.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Did Mr. Marden participate in conversations
with Monaco people in which you did not participate? In other
words, was his knowledge greater than yours on this ?
Mr. Arkin. He did participate more than I because he did go over
a second or third time, to my knowledge not particularly on the Monte
Carlo deal, but while there he did further talk about it.
Mr. KosTELANfiTZ. Where is Mr. Marden now ?
Mr. Arkin. He is in Habana, Cuba.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Whcii is he returning ?
Mr. Arkin. He is due back, I think, next week.
(Off the record.)
Mr. KosTELANETZ. By the way, could you state where you and Mr.
Marden planned to get the money to go into this enterprise in the event
anything were worked out ?
Mr. Akkin. Did we state what?
Mr. KosTELANETZ. I Say, can you tell us where you and Mr. Marden
planned to get the money to go into this enterprise in case things
worked out ?
Mr. Arkin. We weren't to need any money. There was no money
that M'e were going to need to go in. They were anxious to have us
come in there. We could have been on a percentage basis. It could
have been on a management deal. We had never gotten to a point
100 ORGANIZEID CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
where we talked money. There was no figure set on it. We didn't
talk about that. We never got to that.
Senator Tobey. Why did they want you with them ?
Mr. Arkin. Again, because Europe had — well, sir, if you are inter-
ested in listening to a long story, I will give it to you.
Senator Tobey. I don't want you to make it a long story. Can't you
give it to me in a few words ?
Mr. Arkin. No. This is something that took place over a period
of a couple of months, just a lot of negotiations, a lot of parties, a lot
of entertaining. They were very anxious, as 1 said, to interest Amer-
ican interests, and American people. Since the war or as a result of
the war Monte Carlo became a tenth rate gambling place. There
were no people there. You would see elderly people sitting around
betting 1 franc at a time, which was 3 cents, or a third of a cent,
rather, the last time I was over; 300 francs to the dollar. To the
point where the Monte Carlo Casino wasn't making money. They
were losing money. The new prince, who is a youngster, was anxious,
and his only revenue is through the casinos there — he was anxious to
build up some revenue. He was anxious to get some money. After
the war the Americans flocked to Europe, so it was only natural that
he would like to interest Americans. We happened to be there. He
didn't come seeking us. He would have taken anybody. He would
have invited jou, sir, if you were there. Sure he would.
Senator Tobey. He wouldn't have invited me.
Mr. Arkin. It wouldn't make any difference to the Prince of Mon-
aco. We never met him. It wouldn't have made any difference.
They are looking for money. They will take it from Mr. Marshall.
It doesn't make any difference who they take it from. We went down,
and again I tell you, we were flattered with the offer. They were in-
terested in the crap game. We were interested in the show. Our
principal reason to go down at that time was to bring back a show,
and we did. We brought back Edith Pieff, who has made quite a
name for herself here. We brought her back and put her in the Play-
house Theater together with eight or nine French acts that we found
in Europe. It was on that particular trip that we were invited to
participate in the Monte Carlo deal, but we never made ^ deal. I
don't think we spent $4 in actual expense money on that deal.
Mr. Kostelanetz. You say Mr. INIarden went back after that with-
out you?
Mr. Arkin. That is right.
Mr. Kostelanetz. And things may have happened of which you
have no first-hand knowledge ?
Mr. Arkin. I have no first-hand knowledge of it.
Mr. Kostelanetz. I see.
The Chairman. Mr. Arkin, when was it that you were the manager
of the cafe part of the Riviera ?
Mr. Arkin. From 1933 to 1942.
The Chairman. Did they have gambling there at that time ?
Mr. Arkin. They did.
The Chairman. What other restaurants or clubs did you ever
handle for Mr. Marden?
Mr. Arkin. That is the only one. I beg your pardon. Colonial Inn,
in Florida, for one season.
The Chairman. What season was that ?
Mr. Arkin. That was 1939-40.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 101
The Chairman. Who were Mr. Marden's partners in Colonial Inn 'i
Jake and Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. Arkin. I don't think so.
The Chairman. Who were they ?
Mr. Arkin. I don't think he had any.
The Chairman. Who were his partners, if any, in the Riviera?
Mr. Arkin. None, none that I know of.
The Chairman. Did he operate a place at Saratoga ?
Mr. Arkin. No.
The Chairman. How did he get protection over across the river at
the Riviera ? He was never raided that you know of ?
Mr. Arkin. He was closed from time to time or at different times ;
yes.
The Chairman. I know, but it operated wide open there so that any-
body who came in to eat could go back and gamble.
Mr. Arkin. No, it was not a wide open gambling casino. It was
not a wide open casino.
The Chairman. There wasn't much difficulty getting in.
Mr. Arkin. For those who were known probably not.
The Chairman, And the operation was fairly well known by any-
body who really made inquiry ; wasn't it ?
Mr. Arkin. It was well known; yes. I would say it was well
known.
The Chairman. How did you get protection? Who did you pay
off? What favors did you do for policemen?
Mr, Arkin. I don't think any, I would say that we were in a small
town there.
The Chairman. What was the town ?
Mr. Arkin. Coyetesville. It was a town of about, I would say,
12 or 15 hundred inhabitants. We were a big factor in that town.
We had about 400 employees, something like that, operating a big
cafe, with a lot of employees. As a result, we were called on to do
many things for the inhabitants, the people of the town. We pro-
vided such things as benefits for the unemployed. We had most of
our employees who came from the little town. They all worked for
us, and were glad to have us.
The Chairman. Then your idea is that you were an asset to the
town, so the mayor and the chief of police and the prosecuting attorney
and the law-enforcement officers just didn't bother you. Is that your
idea ?
Mr. Arkin. That would have been it, yes ; definitely.
The Chairman. Who was the mayor at that time ?
Mr. Arkin. I can give you his first name, Louis something.
The Chairman. What is his fiist name ?
Mr. Arkin, Louis, He had a paint shop there ; no, a flower shop.
He was a florist. He was the mayor of the little town.
The Chairman, What year was this, do you say ?
Mr, Arkin. 1933.
The Chairman. Until when ?
Mr. Arkin. I don't think he was the mayor all the time.
The Chairman. I mean
Mr, Arkin, Until we closed it in 1942.
The Chairman. It burned during the interim, didn't it ?
Mr. Arkin, That was the old one. We built a new one.
102 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Who was the district attorney over there or the
State's attorney at that time ?
Mr. Arkin. I don't remember. I don't remember who the district
attorney was. There were several during our regime. That would
be the district attorney of the State? Is that what you are asking?
The Chairman. The county attorney.
Mr. iVRKiN. I think Walter Winne is the present one. Then there
was John Bresland. There was a Harry Harper, I think.
Tlie Chairman. Was Mr. Winne the county prosecutor during the
time of this operation ?
Mr. Arkin. I don't think so. I think he came later.
The Chairman. You closed out. Who did you sell out to ?
Mr. Arkin. We sold to Bill Miller, who presently has it, but we
didn't sell it to him until 1946.
The Chairman. Who did you sell it to in 1942?
Mr. Arkin. We closed it in 1942. We closed it for the duration of
the war.
The Chairman. Then in 1946 you sold it to Miller?
Mr. Arkin. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you operate this system of sending automo-
biles across to New York to bring people over?
Mr. Arkin. No.
The Chairman. While you were there you didn't do that ?
Mr. Arkin. No. At that time we had an arrangement with the
New York cab companies where they would bring the patrons over
for a flat fee. I think the fee was $1.50.
The Chairman. Did the patrons pay the fee ?
Mr. Arkin. Yes, they paid it. We paid all over that. In fact we
didn't pay. That was supposedly the deal. We never had to pay.
The cab companies those days were anxious and glad to have our type
of business or any type of business. The cab business wasn't good
those days. So a haul of $1.50 was a pretty good haul for them.
The Chairman. You didn't have any automobiles to send for them?
Mr. Arkin. No, we never owned automobiles. We had a little
placard in each cab in New York announcing the fact that for $1.50
they could ride to Ben Marden's Kiviera from any part of Manhattan,
Bronx, or Brooklyn.
The Chairman. Do you know whether Mr. Marden operated any
place at Saratoga Springs?
Mr. Arkin. I am sure he didn't. In the many years I have worked
for him I would have known it.
The Chairman. What is his business now ?
Mr. Arkin. Marden is in the real-estate business. He owns and
operates real estate. He is the head of some steel or copper company.
The Chairman. Anything else. Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobey. Did this business operate in New Jersey?
Mr. Arkin. T\^iich?
Senator Tobey. The Eiviera.
Mr. Arkin. That was in New Jersey.
Senator Tobey. Just over the line here ?
Mr. Arkin. Just across the George Washington Bridge.
Senator Tobey. It was illegal under the laws of New Jersey ?
Mr. Arkin. That I wouldn't know. Senator.
Senator Tobey. You didn't know whether it was legal or not?
ORGANIZED CRIME EN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 103
Mr. Arkin. That was never my end, sir, I was a cafe man.
Senator Tobey. But you worked for a concern, and you must have
known whether it was in a legal or illegal business. You asked no
questions. That didn't interest you at all ?
Mr. Arkin, I was on a salary and it didn't make much difference.
I worked on the floor. I was in the cafe part where there was no
gambling.
The Chairman. Anything else?
Mr. Halley. Did you own any part of the Riviera yourself?
Mr. Arkin. No, I never did.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
The Chairman. That is all, thank you, sir. If we need you for
anything else we will call you and you remain under subpena, Mr.
Arkin.
Mr. Arkin. The same subpena, Senator, holds good, does it?
The Chairman. All right. You brought some records and books
there.
Mr. Arkin. I planned to bring my lunch and I was going to bring
it in here but I didn't do it. I got some papers here that belong to an-
other corporation. If I want to get out of town for a little holi-
day
The Chairman. Will you keep in touch with Mr. Kostelanetz.
Mr. Arkin. Thank you a lot.
(Off the record.)
The Chairman. Mrs. Catena, do you solemnly swear the testimony
you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Catena. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. KATHERINE CATENA, SOUTH ORANGE, N. J.,
ACCOMPANIED BY ANTHONY CALANDRA, NEWARK, N. J.
The Chairman. What is your name, sir ?
Mr. Calandra. Anthony Calandra, Newark, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name ?
Mrs. Catena. Mrs. Katherine Catena.
Mr. Halley. You are married to Gerald Catena ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Wliat is your address ?
Mrs. Catena. 21 Overhill Road, South Orange.
Mr. Halley. How long have you been married ?
Mrs. Catena. Next month 14 years.
Mr. Halley. When did you last see your husband, Mrs. Catena ?
Mrs. Catena. On the 25th of September.
Mr. Halley. Do you know where he is now ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Does he habitually leave home for long periods?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Under what circumstances did he leave on September
25?
Mrs. Catena. A business trip.
Mr. Halley. Did he tell you he was going on a business trip ?
Mrs, Catena. That is right.
Mr, Halley. He did not tell you where he was going?
104 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mrs. Catena. No. He said he would call.
Mr. Halley. Has he called ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Is it your testimony that you have not heard from him
in any way at all since September 25 ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You have received no telephone call ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Hali^y. No mail ?
Mrs. Catena. No mail.
]\Ir. Halley. No messages of any kind through anybody else?
Mrs. Catena. No, no messages.
Mr. Halley. Did he have word to your knowledge that this com-
mittee was trying to serve a subpena on him before he left?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And he decided to get out of town? Is that what
happened ?
Mrs. Catena. I don't know. He just told me he was going on a
business trip.
Mr. Halley. Who told him that we were trying to serve him?
Mrs. Catena. I did.
Mr. Halley. How did you find out ?
Mrs. Catena. Mr. Elich.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Elich came to your house ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And said he wanted to serve a subpena ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where was your husband at that time ?
Mrs. Catena. He wasn't home at that time. He was away, too.
Mr. Halley. What time of the day was it, Mrs. Catena ?
Mrs. Catena. I think it was around 12 or 1 o'clock. I don't know
for sure, but it was in the early part of the day around 12 noon or 1
o'clock. I don't know, some time like that.
Mr. Halley. Did you phone your husband at that time ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. How did you get in touch with him ?
Mrs. Catena. I had seen him. He had come home. We went on a.
trip. I was sick. I had a hay-fever condition and a cold when we
were away. We came back on the 23d, which was a Saturday. On
the 25th he left, and I haven't seen him since then.
Mr. Halley. It was on the 25th Mr. Elich came, is that right ?
Mrs. Catena. No. He came before and after.
Mr. Halley. Did he come before the 23d of September?
Mrs. Catena. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Halley. Before you and your husband left on the trip, is that
right?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long were you away when you went with your
husband ?
Mrs. Catena. About 9 days.
Mr. Halley. Where did you go?
Mrs. Catena. We went up to New Hampshire.
Mr. Halley. Where?
Mrs. Catena. New Hampshire.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105
Mr. Halley. Wliat part ?
Mrs, Catena. To Corbin Lodge.
Mr. Halley, What part ?
Mrs, Catena, Crawford. House.
Mr, Halley. You went by automobile ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Before you left on that trij) had Mr. Elich come to
the house and tried to serve a subpena ?
]Mrs. Catena. ISIr. Elich came before Labor Day week end. He
had come to the house a few times. He had left me two phone
numbers. He instructed me to give them to my husband and tell
him to get in touch with him, and I did. I thought my husband got
in touch with him, because I had asked him and he said he would
take care of it.
Mr. Halley. You told him that Mr. Elich was looking for him and
trying to serve a subpena on him, is that right ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes, I did.
Mr. Halley. Your husband just said he would take care of it, is
that right ?
Mrs. Catena. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you see Mr. Elich again after the first visit before
you went to New Hampshire ?
Mrs. Catena, No,
Mr, Halley, Then you came back- — are you sure of that ?
Mrs, Catena, Yes, I think so,
Mr, Halley. You came back from New Hampshire September 25 ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. On a Saturday?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And on Monday Mr. Elich came back again, is that
correct ?
Mrs. Catena. 1 don't know if it was Monday. No, it was Tuesday
that he came back.
Mr. Halley. Tuesday.
Mrs. Catena. I don't know if it was Tuesday, but he came back
after then. I don't know exactly what day it was.
Mr. Halley. At this time your husband was still home, is that
correct ?
]Mrs. Catena. No, He had left that Monday.
Mr, IIalley, He had left that Monday on another trip ?
Mrs, Catena, No, That was the trip he had left, the business trip
that he left on was on that Monday,
Mr, Halley. Before Mr. Elich came back ?
Mrs. Catena. That is right, before he came back the second time.
Mr. Halley. You have no idea where he went ?
Mrs. Catena, No, He said he would get in touch with me, and
he hasn't,
Mr, Halley, He hasn't yet ?
Mrs, Catena, Not as yet,
Mr, Halley, Plas that ever happened before in your married life ?
Mrs, Catena, No, I mean he goes away, you know, on trips once
in a while, but no
68058— 51— pt. 7 8
106 ORGANIZED CRI^IE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You hear from him generally.
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. If it were not for the fact that you know why he is
away you would be quite worried at this point ?
Mrs. Catena. I am worried, very much worried about him.
Senator Tobey. Have you children?
Mrs. Catena. I have five children.
Senator Tobey. Five children. All living at home?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Suppose an accident happened to one of those little
children, a tragic accident, how would you get word to your husband?
Mrs. Catena. I couldn't get word to him. I would have to take
care of it myself until I hear from him.
Mr. Halley. Did he leave you funds ? Do you have money ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What did he leave, cash ?
Mrs. Catena. No. I have checks and I put them in the bank and
I write out checks.
Mr. Halley. In what bank do you have a checking account ?
Mrs. Catena. It is the South Orange Trust Co.
Mr. Halley. Do you also have any cash about the house?
Mrs. Catena. No. I draw cash out of the bank every week.
Mr. Halley. You don't keep cash in the house ?
Mrs. Catena. I put checks in and I draw out some cash.
Mr. Halley. You don't have a box or something like that with cash
in the house ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Does your husband ?
Mrs. Catena. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. Halley. Your husband has certain business interests, has he
not?
Mrs. Catena. I imagine he does. I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of the People's Express Co. ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes, People's Express and Cool Vent Awning.
Mr. Halley. The Cool Vent Awning Co.
Mrs. Catena. Yes, because I get checks from those.
Mr. Halley. Does he have an interest in the Marcel Co.?
Mrs. Catena. I don't know anything about it if he does.
Mr. Halley. You don't know what that is ?
Mrs. Catena. No, I don't
Mr. Halley. Do you know what the Marcel Manufacturing Co. is ?
Mrs. Catena. Marcel, oh, yes; he did have an interest in that before
he went into People's Express.
Mr. Halley. He gave up the Marcel ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes, he sold out.
Mr. Halley. A^^iat other business has he got ?
Mrs. Catena. That is all that I know.
Mr. Halley. What is Cocuzza & Catena? You don't know any-
thing about that ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. "Wlio takes care of your husband's business at this
time ?
Mrs. Catena. We have partners.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 107
Mr. Halley. The People's Express ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. "V\^io is that ?
Mrs. Catena. Mr. Dameo.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Dameo takes care of the business ?
Mrs. Catena. Dameo takes care of it. My husband takes care of it
too.
Mr. Halley. Have you any idea what kind of business your hus-
band might be away on ?
Mrs. Catena. I don't understand you.
Mr. Halley. Have you any idea the nature of your husband's busi-
ness?
Mrs. Catena. Which, the People's Express ?
Mr. Halley. No, the business that he is supposed to be attending to
on this trip.
Mrs. Catena. No ; I have no idea of it at all. He didn't say.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of the L. & C. Amusement Co. ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you know that your husband had any connection
with any gambling business ?
Mrs. Catena. No ; not to my knowledge.
Mr. Halley. Have you never heard that ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mr. Willie Moretti ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes ; I know Mr. Moretti.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Mr. Moretti ?
Mrs. Catena. Since I married.
Mr. Halley. Did you know him before that ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Moretti ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mrs. Catena. Since I married.
Mr. Halley. Has your husband been in business with Salvatore
Moretti ?
Mrs. Catena. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Halley. You don't know anything about that?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mr. Zwillman ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes, I do.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mrs. Catena. Since I married.
Mr. Halley. Is he a friend of your husband's ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Has Mr. Zwillman been in your home ?
Mrs. Catena. Occasionally, yes.
Mr. Halley. Recently ?
Mrs. Catena. No ; not recently.
Mr. Halley. When would you say would be the last time ?
Mrs. Catena. It must have been about 6 months or so.
Mr. Halley. How often does he come, two or three times a year ?
Mrs. Catena. On the average, a few times a year.
Mr. Halley. When he comes, is he alone or does he come with
others ?
108 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mrs. Catena. With his wife, a social visit.
Mr. Halley. For a social visit.
Mrs. Catena. For a social visit; yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Doto?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mrs. Doto ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known them ?
Mrs. Catena. Since I married.
Mr. Halley. You met all these people through your husband; is
that right?
Mrs. Catena. That is right.
Mr. HxVLLEY. They are your husband's friends.
Mrs. Catena. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Costello ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes ; I met Mr. Costello, too.
Mr. Halley. Does he come to you home, too ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you been to his home ?
Mrs. Catena. Not recently. No. Yes; I think I was to his home
once.
Mr. Halley. Wliich one of his homes ?
Mrs. Catena. Out on Long Island? I was out there one time on
a visit.
]\Ir. Halley. How long ago ?
Mrs. Catena. It must have been 5 years ago — 3, 4, or 5 years. I
don't know exactly, but I was there just that one time.
Mr. Halley. He has never been to your home ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes ; he lias been to my home.
Mr. Halley. Frank Costello has ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. When was the last time?
Mrs. Catena. Oh, let me see now. He was in my home when I lived
in East Orange. That must have been about 6 or 7 years ago.
Mr. Halley. Has he been to your home since then?
Mrs. Catena. Not since then.
Mr. Halley. Who else was there at the time Frank Costello came ?
Mrs. Catena. His wife came along, and a few other friends. We
were having a little party,
Mr. Halley. Were you at the wedding that Willie Moretti had for
his daughter a couple of years ago?
Mrs. Catena. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Halley. Tell us some of the other guests; would you?
Mrs. Catena. Almost every one that you mentioned was there.
jNIr. Halley. Was Frank Lavorsi there?
Mrs. Catena. I don't know Frank Lavorsi. There are a lot of
]:)eople I don't know their names. I may have seen them, but don't
know their names.
Mr. Halley. Was Bill Giglio there?
Mrs. Catena. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. You don't know either of them ?
]Mrs. Catena. No. INIaybe I may know them if I see their face, but
I don't know them by name, no.
Mr. Hali^ey. Do you know Frank Erickson ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 109
Mrs. Catena. I have seen him, but I don't know him.
Mr. Halley. Where have you seen him?
Mrs. Catena. I saw him around one of the, you know, in New York.
One night we were out, and I was introduced and I said "Hello,-' but
I don't know him other than that.
Mr. Halu:y. Did you meet him at a restaurant ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Which one?
Mrs'. Catena. Well, I don't know. It could have been either Moore's
or Shaw's, or Gallagher's, or any one of those places. I don't know
which one offhand.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vincent Profaci ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Longano ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Gizzo ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. You never met him?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco Fischetti ?
M'rs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of him?
Mrs. Catena. Yes; I have.
Mr. Halley. You have never met him?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Anthony Guarini ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Tony Guarini?
M'rs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know James Rutkin ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mrs. Catena. Since I married. I met him around that time.
Mr. Halley. Is he a friend of your husband's ?
Mrs. Catena. Well, on occasions', you know, I guess he is a friend ; I
don't know.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether your husband has ever been in
business with him ?
M'rs. Catena. Not to my knowledge ; no.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Arthur Longano ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jimmie Lynch ?
Mrs. Catena, Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mrs. Catena. Oh, a couple of years, since I married. I met most
of these people through marriage. I don't know just when.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to a place at Lodi where they had
a restaurant and gambling casino ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. And you would see people gambling ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been to any of these gambling places
in New Jersey ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
110 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You have heard of them I suppose ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. You know that there are such places, don't you?
Mrs. Catena. I hear rumors, but I don't know anything about them ;
no.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to the Riviera ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes ; the Riviera I have been to many times.
Mrs. Halley. Did you go there before the war?
Mrs. Catena. Yes f I was there, I think. I was there many times at
the Riviera.
JNIr. Halley. Were you ever in the gambling rooms in the Riviera ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Accardo ?
Mrs. Catena. No, The name sounds familiar, but I don't know him.
Mr. Halley. Do you know John Rosselli ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Or Jack Dragna ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halle. Do you and your husband go to Florida in the winter-
time?
Mrs. Catena. Yes ; I have been to Florida.
Mr. Halley. What is the last year you went to Florida?
Mrs. Catena. Last winter.
Mr. Halley. Where did you stay ?
Mrs. Catena. We had a house. I rented a house.
Mr. Halley. Where was the house ?
Mrs. Catena. On College Avenue and Eighty-seventh or Eighty-
ninth Street.
Mr. Halley. Did your husband have any business there?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Just vacation ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes. I had the children. He came down two or
three times during the season.
Mr. Halley. You stayed all year ?
Mrs. Catena. I staj^ed with the children all winter; yes.
Mr. Halley. Were you there the year before?
Mrs. Catena. I was down there the year before.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky, who is out in the other
room ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Lansky ?
Mrs. Catena. Since I married.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jimmy Alo, Jimmy "Blue Eyes" Alo?
Mrs. Catena. The name sounds familiar, but I don't recall too
clearly.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie Pissano ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Abe Allenberg at the Boulevard Hotel ?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever at the Boulevard Hotel in Miami
Beach?
Mrs. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. Or at the Robert Richter?
Mrs. Catena. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 111
Mr. Halley. Your husband is bound to come liome sooner or later;
do you think ?
Mrs. Catena. I don't know. I guess so. I hope so.
Mr. Halley. He loves you and the children, I presume?
Mrs. Catena. He loves us very much.
Mr. Halley, Would you make it perfectly clear to him that this
committee is attempting to serve a subpena on him ?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And upon his return, if the committee is unable to do
it, the committee will simply have to take steps to have the subpena
served in some other w^ay.
Senator Tobey. Wouldn't you amplify that by saying that, no mat-
ter how long he stays away, whenever he comes back we will be on
the job then and serve subpena? It is foolish to stay away, because
sooner or later he is going to come before us. He might as well
come before us and have his family and home life again.
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
The Chairman. Senator Tobey.
Senator Tobey. What was your maiden name ?
Mrs. Catena. Katherine McNalley.
Senator Tobey. A New York girl?
Mrs. Catena. A Brooklyn girl, yes.
Senator Tobey. Weren't you familiar with the fact that these
names mentioned here — Doto, Catena, Moretti, Lynch — were all en-
gaged in gambling business in some form or other, Mrs. Catena?
Mrs. Catena, No. They never gave me any reason to; no, out-
side of what I have been reading recently in the papers.
Senator Tobey. That is all I have.
Mrs. Catena. I have been busy, you know, with the children. When
I got married, I had one baby after another, and I have been busy
raising them.
Senator Tobey. How many years have you been married?
Mrs. Catena. I have been married 14 years next month. After
all, I had my first three children in 4 years. I kept having children
and running the house.
Senator Tobey. Yes ; I do know.
The Chairman. T\Tiat did you do before you got married, Mrs.
Catena ?
Mrs. Catena. I didn't do anything.
The Chairman. You got out of school and got married ?
Mrs. Catena. That is right.
The Chairman. How old is your husband, by the way ?
Mrs. Catena. He is 47 or 48.
The Chairman. Mrs. Catena, if you had some emergency, is there
someone you could get in touch with who could get in touch with
your husband ?
Mrs. Catena. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Your lawyer or partner in business or somebody?
Mrs. Catena. No; unless Mr. Dameo could, I don't know anyone,
really, anyone at all.
The Chairman. You have no idea where he is ?
Mrs. Catena. No,
The Chairman. Or where he went to ?
112 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mrs. Catena. No. I have no idea at all.
The Chairman. No idea in the world. Mrs. Catena. I think it
would be well for yon to try to fret word to your husband that he is
just making it a whole lot harder on himself by avoiding service of a
subpena, that he won't get by with it, and the publicity and the scorn
that he will be held in by trying to avoid appearing before this
committee will just make it that much worse for him. We have an
investigation to carry through. He is a necessary witness. He will
have to testify sooner or later.
We appreciate your being here to testify today.
Senator Tobey. You said you knew Mrs. Doto?
Mrs. Catena. Yes.
Senator Tobey. When did you see her last ?
Mrs. Catena. Oh, gee, it must be over a year. I know she has
been ill.
Senator Tobey. Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mrs. Catena.
Mr. Calandra, what is your first name ?
Mr. Calandra. Anthony A.
The Chairman. Just by chance you know where Mr. Catena is and
might be in touch with him, I really think you would be doing your
client a great service if you told him to get on back here.
Mr. Calandra. If he should at any time communicate with me, I
shall advise him to accept the subpena and appear. I can appreciate
the legal ramifications that are involved and, of course, I will do that.
The Chairman. Thank you. Thank you, Mrs. Catena.
Mr. Halley. Do you represent Mr. Catena ?
Mr. Calandra. No.
Mr. Halley. You don't represent Mr. Catena ?
Mr. Calandra. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know who does ?
Mr. Calandra. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you, Mrs. Catena ?
Mi^. Catena. No.
Mr. Halley. But you never have ?
Mr. Calandra. No ; I have never represented him on any legal mat-
ters.
Mr, Halley. Thank you.
(Brief recess.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr, Goldstein, do jou solemnly swear the testimony you will give
this committee will l)e the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Goldstein. I do,
TESTIMONY OF GEOKGE GOLDSTEIN, NEWARK, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name ?
Mr. Goldstein. George Goldstein.
Mr. Halley. Your residence ?
Mr. Goldstein, ll Van Velso Place, Newark.
Mr. Halley. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Goldstein. Accountant, certified public accountant.
Mr. Halley, Where is your office?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 113
Mr. Goldstein. 744 Broad Street, Newark.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a firm 'l
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. I. George Goldstein & Co.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any partners?
Mr. Goldstein. I have a partner now, an associate partner, Jack
Maurer.
Mr. Halley. Did you have another firm prior to this one?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. I was partner with Arthur L. Goldfine, from
1945 until 1948, September 1948.
Mr. Halley. Where were your offices with Goldfine?
Mr. Goldstein. 175 Fifth Avenue.
Mr. Halley. New York?
Mr. Goldstein. In New York. And then about a year later we had
a Jersey office at 850 Broad Street.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether Arthur Goldfine is related in
any way to Alec Goldfine i
Mr. Goldstein. No, no. I don't know. He is my brother-in-law.
I would know if he had an Alec. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. Do you know the Alec Goldfine who is connected with
the various gambling corporations?
Mr. Goldstein. I remember — I don't remember that.
Mr. Halley. You do remember the name ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. It stands out. I don't know just exactly
where.
Mr. Halley. You don't know of any relationship ?
]\Ir. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. When were you certified as a c. p. a. and where ?
Mr. Goldstein. In 1926 in New York,
Mr. Halley. Have you been certified in New Jersey ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes; a few years.
Mr. Halley. You have represented the New Jersey gambling part-
nerships, is that correct ?
Mr, Goldstein. I don't know whether you would call it represent-
ing them. We have made out the tax returns for them.
Mr. Halley, Who originally made the contact for you?
Mr. GoLDSi-EiN. I can recall the first one we did.
Mr. Halley. AVliich was that ?
Mr. Goldstein. I think that is G. & R.
Mr. Halley. G. & R. Trading Co.?
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Was that in 1945-46?
Mr. Goldstein. It started in 1945. The reason I recall it so defi-
nitely is because that is when we started our partnership with my
partner. I started in business with him at that time. That is when
I started with Goldfine. That was one of our first jobs.
Mr. Halley. How did that business come to you ?
Mr. Goldstein. It came through Anthony Guarini.
Mr. Halley. How long had you known Guarini ? '
]Mr. Goldstein. I didn't know him before that. He came to my
house and said he was recommended by somebody. I don't recall the
circumstances. I recall some event that started. I just don't know
how.
Mr. Halley. Prior to 1945 where was your office ?
114 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Goldstein. I was in business for myself personally under the
name of I. George Goldstein, from November or December 1942 until
the end of 1944, at 744 Broad Street.
Mr. Halley. In Newark ?
Mr. Goldstein. In Newark ; yes.
Mr. Halley. You moved to New York solely for the partnership
withGoldfine?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes; temporarily, although it was always our in-
tention to have a Newark office.
Mr. Halley. Was the G. & E. account your accout or Goldfine's?
Mr. Goldstein. No ; it was mine.
JMr. Halley. Prior to 1942 where was your business ?
Mr. Goldstein. Prior to 1942 I was with Samuel R. Cohn & Co.
Mr. Halley. Located where ?
Mr. Goldstein. Located at 744 Broad Street.
• Mr. Halley. Were you a partner?
Mr. Goldstein. Only in the name that I shared in the profits. In
other words, I shared in the earnings, but I had no interest at all in
any of the accounts or good will or business or anything.
Mr. Halley. How long were you with Cohn & Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. That would be from January 1, 1937, I think,
around that time, to that December 1942.
Mr. Halley. What was your office before then?
Mr. Goldstein. Before then I was with J. H. Cohn — no; Cohn
<&Co.
Mr. Halley. At what address ?
Mr. Goldstein. 972 Broad Street, I think.
Mr.- Halley. The two Cohn & Co.'s related in any way?
Mr. Goldstein. The first Cohn & Co. consisted of two partners,
J. H. Cohn and Samuel E. Cohn, and it was from Cohn & Co. that
I went with in 1937.
]Mr. Halley. Prior to working for the first Cohn & Co., where were
you?
Mr. Goldstein. The first Cohn & Co.? That would be close to —
let's see. I have to do a little figuring. You mean what firm did I
work for ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know the name of the firm. Schier & Herz
in New York City.
Mr. Halley. Did you work for any other firm ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. That is a long way back. That is about 25
years ago. Nathan L. Janis, c. p. a.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in any other business besides that
of being a c. p. a. ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. In addition to representing
Mr. Goldstein. Excuse me. There was some other besides that.
There was anofher firm, but I just don't recall. You see I worked
5 years before I became certified. I know that. I became certified in
1946, so there must have been 5 years of work right there as c. p. a.
Janis is one of them. Schier & Herz is another. But there are one
or two others.
Mr. Halley. Would you provide the committee with a list putting
together such a list at your office at your leisure, and mail it to me ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115
Mr. Goldstein. I have my certificate as C. P. A.
Mr. Haixey. In addition to G. & R. Trading Co., did Guarina
bring you the business of L. & C. Co. ^
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. It started with that Guarini. I beUeve the
name was G. & R. Then there was a Lapse of time. I don't recall how
much. I think it was a year after that. Then there was that L. & C.
Isn't that a 1947 return '^
Mr. Halley. Yes. Then there was B. & T., also in 1947, is that
right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes ; B. & T. is another one, that is right.
Mr. Halley. Then there was Pal Trading Co., is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Right.
Mr. Halley. Then General Trading Co.
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know whether it is in that rotation. I
think that is the rotation.
Mr. Halley. In addition to those companies, have you done any
other business for Guarini?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. None whatsoever?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you done any other business for Joe Doto, known
as Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Any other business for Salvatore Moretti?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Any for Willie Moretti ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Any for Gerard Catena ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Any for James Rutkin ?
Mr. Goldstein. Any business for Rutkin?
Mr. Halley. Any personal work.
•Mr. Goldstein. I did his tax return, that is all.
Mr. Halley. For what year?
Mr. Goldstein. 1942, 1943, 1944, and then he skipped a year or
two. The next one I guess was 1948.
Mr. Halley. You knew Rutkin before you knew Guarini?
Mr. Goldstein. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. Did Rutkin send Guarini to you ?
Mr. Goldstein. It could have been. I can't be sure of that.
Mr. Halley. Rutkin was in this G. & R. with Guarini, was he not ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is right. That would be the most likely, but
I can't be sure about that.
Mr. Halley. You think Rutkin may have sent Guarini to you ?
Mr. GoLDsi-EiN. He may have. It sounds logical to me. The only
other person I knew was Lansky, which will probably come up later.
That is the only person I knew somewhere in the early forties. There
were no other people I knew of this type up to that time.
Mr. Halley. You knew Longie Zwillman?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. T\Tien did you first meet him ?
Mr. Goldstein. I first met him at I believe the end of 1942 or 1943.
Mr. Halley. Did you do any other work for James Lynch ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
116 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Or any other work for Arthur Longano ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. For these people and the companies we have men-
tioned you drew up partnership returns, is that right ?
Mr, Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And then did you draw up their individual returns
for the years involved ?
Mr. Goldstein. No ; not all of them.
Mr. Halley. What did you do, certify the income to each partner ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. In other words, if I remember correctly, our
office made up a sheet which consists of five copies of balance sheet
and profit and loss and distributive share, and each one would get it,
five or six or however many partners there were. I want to answer
your other question. You asked did I do the tax returns. Some of
them. Take Lynch. He came in one year, I don't know when. I-
would see him only once a year. In Id^d or something like that
Lynch, Longano, I recall those two. Mention those other names again,
will you, please?
Mr. Halley. Adonis.
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Doto ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Moretti.
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Guarini ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Catena.
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Kutkin.
Mr. Goldstein. Kutkin, I mentioned Rutkin.
Mr. Halley. Did you also do it for the company that operated up
at Saratoga, the L. & L. Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You handled their accounts, too ?
Mr. Goldstein. Let me just say this. Tlie difference between han-
dling an account and doing a tax job is the difference between day
and night.
Mr. Halley. We will get into that.
Mr. Goldstein. You asked if I was doing an accounting job and
this is not an accounting job.
Mr. Halley. You did draw the tax return for L. & L. Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. In each case where you did the return did you supply
the partners with a statement of their distributive share ?
Mr. Goldstein. I am pretty certain, I am reasonably certain, I will
put it that way.
Mr. Halley. Now let's take the companies one at a time. The first
is the G. & R. Co, ; is that right ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is the one that started in 1945 ?
Mr. Halley. That is the one that started in 1945 ; I believe, April
11, 1945.
Mr. Goldstein. Would you mind telling me when the year ended ?
Mr. Halley. I believe it ended April 10, 1946.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 117
Mr. Goldstein. I wouldn't know. I don't know. That is why I
asked you. I don't know the dates.
Mr. Halley. You do remember having drawn a tax return for that
company ?
Mr. (joldstein. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. From whom did you get the information, Mr. Gold-
stein ?
Mr. Goldstein. Guarini.
Mr. Halley. Guarini?
Mr. Goldstein. Guarini.
Mr. Halley. It appears it was filed by Gerald Catena. Did you
hand the return to Catena ?
Mr. Goldstein. I couldn't answer that.
Mr. Halley. Did you discuss the matter with Catena ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. From whom did you get your facts, just Guarini?
Mr. Goldstein. Just Guarini.
Mr. Halley. Did he provide you with books of account?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. How did you get your information then ?
Mr. Goldstein. Here is how that worked. They would submit a
daily summary of operations, which would show their gross, I believe,
and net per day on one side, and then in the left-hand column would
be the expenses, the payroll, rent, and whatever else they paid. All
we did in the office, and it was very seldom that I ever did any personal
work, it was usually handled by our office. Some of these returns I
never even saw. We would accumulate it. Some would accumulate
the daily information to a monthly figure, and from the monthly
figures they would be summarized into an annual figure.
Mr. Halley. Would the daily sheet be brought to you each day ?
]\Ir. Goldstein. No, no.
ISIr. Halley. How often would they be brought ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. Most of the time the end of the
month or 10 days after the end of the month, sometimes every 2
months, something like that, you see.
Mr. Halley. Then they would bring in a batch.
Mr. Goldstein. They would bring in a whole batch of them, yes.
Mr. Halley. Wlio would actually bring those in ?
Mr. Goldstein. Guarini.
Mr. Halley. No one else ever ?
Mr. Goldstein. No one else that I recall. I don't recall.
Mr. Halley. You say it could have been Lynch ?
Mr. Goldstein. It is possible. I don't recall. Sometimes I may
not have been in the office when it happened. In other words, he
could have come in the office and leave the returns and I wouldn't
have been there. I didn't personally handle this, understand.
Mr. Halley. With whom did you arrange it ?
Mr. Goldstein. Guarini.
Mv. Halley. What was the figure on the G. & R. Trading Co.?
Mr. Goldstein. All of these were round $1,500 a year, approxi-
mately.
]\Ir. Halley. Did you make any attempt to keep books ?
]\Ir. Goldstein. When I say keep books we tried to set up or some-
body in our office tried to set up a general ledger which consisted of the
118 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
same type of accounts which are in the tax return. In other words,
there would be cash accounts and expense accounts, the same things
you find in the tax returns, which would support the tax return.
Mr. Halley. Who in your office handled that, do you know?
Mr. Goldstein. I know the last two or three, the last 3 years, at
least the last 3 years. It has been this Eddie — do you want to know
the man's name ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. Edward Diamond. The last 2 years he did it I
think.
Mr. Halley. Who was in charge of that before that ?
Mr. Goldstein. I wouldn't say. We have a lot of men.
Mr. Halley. Did you personally see the return ?
Mr. Goldstein. Sometimes I did.
Mr. Halley. You wouldn't file a return under your name without
seeing it?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean by seeing
Mr. Halley. Yes, reviewing it.
Mr. Goldstein. Reviewing it. Most of the time I did. Sometimes
I wouldn't. There are many returns in our office that are filed that
I don't review.
Mr. Halley. Even though your name is on them ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And personally prepared by them.
Mr. Goldstein. You have an assistant. You have somebody do it
for you. It is impossible to review every tax return that goes through
the office.
Mr. Halley. You signed them, didn't you ?
Mr. Goldstein. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. You looked at them, didn't you ?
Mr. Goldstein. I looked at them ; yes.
Mr. Halley. You saw the figures on them.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. I just glanced at them. When you say "re-
view," there is a little difference in my mind between looking and re-
viewing. I looked at it to see if it looked right.
Mr. Halley. As a C. P. A. submitting an income-tax return to the
United States of America you agreed with what you were signing,
did 3^ou not ?
Mr. Goldstein. Oh, yes, I did.
Mr. Halley. Where are the records that you were given for the
G.&R. Trading Co.?
Mr. Goldstein. The only records we ever had, as I explained before,
were those summaries attached to the tax return. Those were taken
from us by Guarini, I believe some time this year.
Mr. Halley. When did he take them?
Mr. Goldstein. Either January, February, or March; something
like that this year. This was right before he went to jail.
Mr. Halley. Is it my understanding that he took every record in
your possession at that time ?
Mr. Goldstein. If you call a record a tax return and the informa-
tion attached to it, that is what he took.
Mr. Halley. What happened to the books in which you posted the
information ?
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 119
Mr. Goldstein. In some cases — when you ask me about books, they
are still the same yellow sheets. We attached them right to the
return. There are no written books or anything like that. It is just
a yellow sheet that you just type up, and headed the same as you
would a general ledger.
Mr. Halley, Is it your testimony that you returned them also?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. Everything was attached to the return, Mr.
Halley.
Mr. Halley. Did you conceive of yourself, as a certified public ac-
countant, as having no responsibility to keep any files?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes and no, I would like to answer that.
Mr. Halley. Yes and no is meaningless.
Mr. Goldstein. Eesponsibility to keep it after you prepare it ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. I will give you an illustration. I did do Rutkin's
return. I decided a long time ago I am not going to do it any more.
Any time he wants it, if he doesn't call for tliem I am going to ship
them over to him, all the returns, lock, stock, and barrel. So if I
change accountants or if I want to do anything, I am not required to
keep a tax return.
Mr. Halley. Let's go back to Guarini.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. He called for his papers personally ?
Mr. Goldstein. I believe it was ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you see him?
Mr. Goldstein. I think I did ; yes.
Mr. Halley. And you approved the return of the papers ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Halley. At that time he had been sentenced to a jail term?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know whether he was sentenced or going
to be sentenced. He talked about a gambling charge.
Mr. Halley. He had been convicted on a gambling charge.
Mr. Goldstein. I wouldn't know whether he was convicted. I
know there was something about a gambling charge. Either he was
being tried or he was convicted or going to be. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. As an accountant with 3U years' experience, you would
have good reason to foresee that there might be some need for those
records by some agency of the Government?
Mr. Goldstein. If there was any — let me be frank about it. At
this present moment I feel now the way I did at that time, if any
of this type of work that I had, if I had them and I decided a long
time ago not to do it any more, I would return them. There is no
responsibility to keep a return on the accountant's part. I will give
you an illustration, too,
Mr. Halley. Go ahead.
Mr. (joldstein. At the end of the year you have Government agents
throughout the country, revenue agents, and all kinds of collectors'
agents, who go throughout the country and prepare tax returns.
They prepare them. An individual comes in and they make up a tax
return. They give them a rent schedule or any other schedule.
When they get through they prepare the return and he signs his
name and there is no
^Ir. Halley. You are not trying to kid us.
Mr, Goldstein. No ; I am not trying to kid you.
120 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You ^yant the revenue agent just doing the return.
Mr. Goldstein. You asked me for an ilhistration of what conditions
under which you don't keep the return.
Mr. Halley. These people brought you their daily record.
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Including their expenses for each day.
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you set up a set of books in their offices?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Any man with any intelligence would know that you
were getting their basic records and that there would be no other
record around.
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You had them in your office.
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. From them you prepared certain work sheets so you
could file the return.
Mr. Goldstein. That is right, cumulative work sheets with the
return.
Mr. Halley. You know very well the work sheets are your own rec-
ords and not your clients.
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Of course they are.
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know that I agree with you. I am sorry.
Mr. Halley. They are, and that is a fact.
Mr. Goldstein. No, it is not a fact. I am sorry to disagree with
you. It is not a fact.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in a dispute in which you have
had to return certain papers to a client and admitted they were your
work papers?
Mr. Goldstein. If I am in a dispute and a man insisted on the work-
ing papers in order to pay me I have given him the working papers at
any time.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in a position where before being
paid you refused to give up your working papers on the position that
they were your papers?
Mr. Goldstein. No, I haven't been in that position, no, but I am
telling you that if a client came to me and said to me I want my work-
ing papers before I pay you, I would give them to him.
Mr. Halley. They are not his papers. They are your working
papers that you prepared.
Mr. Goldstein. Wliat we call working papers are based on these
particular records. They are sheets that we prepared. As to whose
they are, that is a question of opinion.
Mr. Halley. It is totally incomprehensible to me that you, as a
certified public accountant, could put yourself in the position of re-
turning all these working papers and basic records to a man who is
about to go to jail convicted of gambling.
Mr. Goldstein. It is very logical to me.
Mr. Halley. Did any official of the State of New Jersey or any
city or township or county in New Jersey ever ask you or subpena
those records from you?
Mr, Goldstein. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 121
Mr. Hallf.y. Were you ever asked to produce them in connection
with Guarini's trial ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Up to the time Guarini went to jail you were never
asked for the records ; is that right ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Was the first occasion on which you were asked for
them when this committee and the district attorney of New York
County both asked you for your records ?
Mr. Goldstein. No, it wasn't. The first occasion — I don't get that.
Mr. Halley. When you were asked for the records of these gam-
bling corporations.
Mr. Goldstein. By whom?
Mr. Halley. By any public official.
Mr. Goldstein. The only public official I recall in my lifetime was
this last Hogan inquiry.
Mr. Halley. And this committee also approached you for the rec-
ords and then it was determined that you would turn them over to
Hogan.
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know when you approached me. I know
you did, yes. It was later than that. It was later than the Hogan
inquiry.
Mr. Halley. That is right. There was no query before then by any
official about these records i
Mr. Goldstein. I don't recall any at all.
Mr. Halley. G. & R. Trading Co.
The Chairman. When was it he turned them over to Mr. Guarini 'i
Mr. Goldstein. Around February or March of this year. Senator.
The Chairman. When was it you were asked for the records first ?
Mr. Goldstein. I wasn't asked. It just came up, as I recall, and
that is that. That is all I recall about it.
Senator Tobey. If 3^ou made out the income tax for this man and
put your name on it, under your aegis, and then you knew the Federal
Government sometimes checks up recalcitrants or people they have
a doubt about, where would you think they were going to get the
data from which you made the income tax out if you gave it up to
Guarini ?
Mr. Goldstein. Senator, don't you see, if any individual, forget
these inquiries, there is no such thing in mind, if any individual's tax
return was going to be examined and I had returned it to him, it is his
responsibility to get in touch with him and I would decide then what
I wanted to do or didn't want to do. It is up to him then.
Senator Tobey. Did you caution him to keep this on hand intact?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't remember cautioning him.
Senator Tobey. Did you have any conversation with him about it?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Senator Tobey. Did he tell you he wanted them back so he could
get rid of them and destroy all traces of fraud ?
Mr. Goldstein. No, Senator. The information contained in those
papers are no different than the tax return. There is nothing dif-
ferent in it. There isn't a single thing that you couldn't get from the
tax return that is on those sheets. It is the same information.
Senator Tobey. IVliere did he bank ?
68958— 51— pt. 7 9
122 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Goldstein. There was no bank account.
Senator Tobey. Did he do everything in cash ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Didn't that make a suspicion that there was crooked-
ness when a man dealt in cash only ?
Mr. Goldstein. The whole operation is in cash.
Senator Tobey. He never put anything in cash.
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Senator Tobey. You weren't suspicious of that kind of vermin ?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean the propriety of doing that work?
Senator Tobey. Yes, I do. I want to know the ethics about it.
If you are doing business with a crook, why don't you tell him so?
You are a citizen of the United States and you are pledged to be a
good citizen. Don't you know that when you were doing business
with a man who was concealing money in cigar boxes is trying to con-
ceal the facts ? You were aiding and abetting him.
Mr. Goldstein. There is no concealment. He just dealt in cash in-
stead of check. If a man wants to do the wrong thing he could do the
same thing with checlvs.
Senator Tobey. He has to deposit them, doesn't he ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Senator Tobey. There is a record then, isn't there ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Senator Tobey. There is no record of cash, is there ?
Mr. Goldstein. Well, all I can tell you, Senator, if I may say this,
when we did this work
Senator Tobey. Honest men don't do business that way, straight
shooters, good citizens don't do business that way.
Mr. Goldstein. You mean the way G. & R. did ?
Senator Tobey. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. There is no question about it.
Senator Tobey. You knew it, didn't you ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Didn't you tell him to "get to hell out of here. I
don't want your business, you dirty rat?"
Mr. Goldstein. All I can say is that my partner was in the Govern-
ment for 14 years and we made many inquiries and as to the propriety
of doing this kind of work from the Federal Government standpoint
and they said there is nothing that is improper. You are helping, in
other words, the Government to collect taxes. That is the consensus
of information we got. Senator, many times we have had examina-
tions, we have met many special agents of the Government, and they
all knew. They must have come up where they knew it, that they
knew we were representing them in some way or other.
Mr. Halley. You know very well that you would have no way of
checking on the actual daily receipts.
Mr, Goldstein. No.
Mr. Hai-XpEY. You were told there was a certain gross that would
appear on the sheets.
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And you were told that a certain profit would be made.
Mr. CjOldstein. That is correct ; whatever the profits showed.
Mr. Halley. For that you would be taking the word of a lot of
gamblers ; isn't that right ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 123
Mr. Goldstein. In the same way that you take the word of any
businessman.
Mr. Halley. Is it?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do they have invoices to show ?
Mr. Goldstein. They don't have any invoices.
Mr. Halley. Do they have sales slips ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Do they have canceled vouchers ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Do they have the names and list of customers that you
can check ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Do they have anythinfj that you can test check even
to make a 10 percent check or a 1 percent check ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. How do you compare that with any commercial busi-
ness ?
Mr. Goldstein. Because if it is in any commercial business, you can
have funds that are missing or shortages or anything of that type
without the accountant knowing about it. It is the same thing. You
have had that same condition during the war.
Mr. Halley. I know, but you have no check here whatsoever on
anything.
Mr. Goldstein. You have no check in man}^ businesses, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Name one other type of business in which you have n«j>
check.
Mr. Goldstein. In all retail business you have no check.
Mr. Halley. They buy merchandise, don't they ?
Mr. Goldstein. They buy it, but the Government accepts what they
ring up on the cash register.
Mr. Halley. But you can check their inventory. You can see how
much merchandise they bought.
Mr. Goldstein. I disagree with you.
Mr. Halley. They have a tape on the cash register.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes ; they have the tape listing and you can check
their purchases, but there is nobody in the world who can go into a
retail store, any retail store, and determine whether they should make
28 percent or 24 percent. They still take all the cash and keep it.
Mr. Halley. You can check their purchases.
Mr. Goldstein. All you can do is check the purchases and total
them up. But you and I nor anyone can ever tell whether they are not
pocketing 5 percent of their receipts or otherwise.
Mr. Halley. Don't you have the morality to admit that in a retail
store a man buys goods that you can see with your eyes and count, and
if you had to check on them you could and that he pays bills that
appear in writing?
Mr. Goldstein. Mr. Halley, you are asking whether an accountant
can tell whether it is correct or not?
Mr. Halley. No ; but you have some way of checking it.
Mr. Goldstein. A retailer, many wholesalers and many types of
business could be just as dishonest if they want to be as this place could
be.
Mr. Halley. They could be but they don't have nearly the oppor-
tunity, do they ?
124 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Goldstein. I wouldn't say that.
Mr. Halley. Is there anything tangible that you had here that you
could count in any way to check up on these people ?
Mr. Goldstein. Nothing tangible.
Mr. Halley. Nothing at all.
Mr. Goldstein. No more than any retailer. There is nothing tangi-
ble in other lines of business.
Mr. Halley. Let's stick to this one.
Mr. Goldstein. All right.
Mr. Halley. Here you had absolutely nothing at all.
Mr. Goldstein. By nothing you mean that there is no way of check-
ing it.
Mr. Halley. Did you set up any
Mr .Goldstein. Excuse me a minute. May I bring this out. You
are talking about other business with no way of checking. All pro-
fessional firms have no way of checking. Doctors
Mr. Halley. There is no way of checking?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Don't they keep records?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes; they keep records, but the Government
takes — if they want to pocket 90 percent of that they can do so.
Mr. Halley. But they keep a report of the name of the patient.
]\Ir. Goldstein. They keep a record of the charge to the patient.
Mr. Halley. They keep a calendar book so you can tell who was
in at 2 o'clock and who was in at 3 : 30.
Mr. Goldstein. Please believe me, Mr. Halley, it is a recognized
fact in the accounting and tax profession that it is pretty difficult to
check to see whether a doctor's return or a dentist's return is correct.
Mr. Halley. Now let's get back to a gambling place. It is at least
possible in the situation of a gambling place to set up a system so
that the money is carefully channeled and you can tell how much
comes in and how much goes out.
Mr. Goldstein. It is impossible, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. You can have locked drawers for the cash.
Mr. Goldstein. That is up to them. That is their internal system.
Mr. Halley. You made no attempt to see that they set up any kind
of check.
Mr. Goldstein. You couldn't have it. There is no check, Mr. Hal-
ley, in any gambling place as far as I know.
Mr. Halley. Not even a system that you could explain to the Gov-
ernment and say this is a system we set up so that if they followed the
system the report would be honest ?
Mr. Goldstein. ISIy answer to that, Mr. Halley, is that the State of
Nevada, where they have legalized gambling, there is no way in the
world that any Government agency could tell what any table or place
could win ; no way in the world.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever checked the system of the State of
Nevada ?
Mr. Goldstein. I have seen it. It is published in accounting
manuals.
Mr. Hallkv. Have you ever been out there and looked at it and
checlf ed the system ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 125
Mr. Hallet. Then I would advise you not to talk about it.
Mr. Goldstein. I can
Mr. Hallet. I happen to know the system.
Mr. Goldstein. I know the system too, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. And it is possible to check it.
Mr. Goldstein. Possible to check, Mr. Halley, but 50 percent of
the income could be missing and nobody would know it.
Mr. Hallet. You can steal from any business but at least there is
some effort to set up a system of checks and balances. Here you had
nothing but the bare word of a man and you didn't even have that.
You just had a scrap of paper.
Mr. Goldstein. IVliat does that mean? I don't follow this, Mr.
Halley. Because this particular place had a system that you can't
check, does that make it automatically more dishonest?
Mr, Hallet. Let's get to the actual returns, and perhaps you will
see.
For G. & R. Trading Co. vou filed a return from April 11, 1945, to
April 10, 1946; is that correct?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. It shows gross receipts of $488,698 ; is that right ?
Mr. Goldstein. I wouldn't know. Whatever you say.
Mr. Hallet. You so filed, did you not ?
Mr. Goldstein. I will take it for granted every figure you say is
correct. You have the return in front of you.
Mr. Hallet. You don't doubt that the figures that appear on the
return are right ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Hallet. Then you show certain operating expenses totaling
$233,426.64 ; is that right ? If it appears on the return that is it ; is
that ripht ?
Mr. Goldstein. I will answer the same way.
Mr. Hallet. And a net income of $255,271.36. If that appears on
the return ; is that the correct figure ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. And of that, you distributed to Rutkin $51,054.27?
Mr. Goldstein. The same answer. Whatever figures you call are
correct.
Mr. Hallet. The figures that appear on the return are correct : is
that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Is that the return that I signed ? Then every figure
you call is the figure reflected in the tax return.
Mr. Hallet. If that is the figure appearing on the return, is that
the correct figure ?
Mr. Goldstein. By "correct," you mean what ?
]Mr. Hallet. The figure you filed.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. Based on the information given you ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. You don't say it is the correct figure ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Hallet. You have no way of knowing ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
126 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet, You showed $38,290.71 income for Anthony Guarini ;
is that right ? If it so appears, that is what you showed ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And Joe Adonis, alias Joe Doto, $76,581.41 ?
Mr. Goldstein. The same answer. Wliatever it shows.
Mr. Halley. Catena, $51,054.27?
Mr. Goldstein. The same answer. ^
Mr. Halley. And Salvatore Moretti, $38,290.70.
Would you state who gave you the percentages so that you could
figure out the partnership distribution ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, sir. Mr. Guarini.
Mr. Halley. What were the percentages? Did he state?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean — I don't know. You would have to
read it to me.
Mr. Halley. It would appear roughly that Rutkin and Catena had
20 percent, is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Whatever the tax return figures show.
Mr. Halley. You have no independent recollection at all?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. No, I have no recollection. You
are asking me to remember one partnership return figure of all the
returns we do, for the year 1945.
Mr. Halley. But you are willing to swear that if these figures show
on the tax returns, they are correct?
Mr. Goldstein. That they are correct as submitted to us, yes.
Mr. Halley. As submitted to you. You won't vouch for a thing?
Mr. Goldstein. Won't vouch. I don't understand that question.
Mr. Halley. In other words, you wouldn't take the word of these
people, would you ?
Mr. Goldstein. We prepare a tax return based solely on their in-
formation. As far as taking word, the same applies to any business-
man, for that matter.
Mr. Halley. Let's leave businessmen out of this.
Mr. Goldstein. You are saying take their word.
Mr. Halley. You have a man who comes in and says, "I ran a crap
game and last night we made a net of $2,000," is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. That is true.
Mr. Halley. By "gross receipts," you don't mean the gross number
of bets ? You mean the profit each night ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is the total win, I believe.
Mr. Halley. There is no record kept of the total bet at all, is that
right?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. If the bank roll at the start of a particular night is
$10,000, and at the end of the night it is $15,000, the total win for that
night is $5,000?
Mr. Goldstein. The total net win is $5,000 after all expenses.
Mr. Halley. This business, then, running for a year, shows total
net wins of approximately $500,000 in a year?
Mr. Goldstein. What would that figure be, the top figure 488? Is
that the top figure, the gross figure ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, that is the net win. '-
Mr. Halley. Then you took off certain operating expenses?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 127
Mr. Halley. Did the partners have salaries ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't think so. I don't know. I couldn't say,
unless it is indicated there.
Mr. Halley. It doesn't show here. Do you know ?
Mr. Goldstein. If it doesn't show there, then they didn't. It would
be included in their distributive share, I believe. Look at the tax
return.
Mr. Halley, Let's get on to some of these other companies. The
time is going by here.
The second was the L. & C. Amusement Co., is that right?
Mr. Goldstein, Yes.
Mr, Halley, Did that business just flow to you?
Mr, Goldstein, That is correct.
Mr. Halley. As a follow-up on the G. & R. ? •
Mr, Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Who brought you the information on L. & C.?
Mr. Goldstein, The same,
Mr. Halley, Who would that be, Guarini ?
Mr, Goldstein, Guarini.
Mr. Halley. Did they ever tell you the nature of the business ?
Mr. Goldstein. I would assume the nature of the business from
looking at the sheet.
Mr. Halley. You had to know in order to work out the figures at
all?
Mr. Goldstein. That is correct.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever visit the premises and look at it?
Mr. Goldstein. I recall many years ago, not in the last 3 or 4 years,
I recall going there once with my wife, once or twice. I do recall
that.
Mv. Halley, What was your fee from the first, from the G. & R. ?
Mr, Goldstein, Approximately $1,500 a year, or $1,800, You see,
it was $150 a month, but I don't think they operated a whole year in
most instances, so it averaged $1,300 or $1,400 a year,
Mr, Halley, And this is for the whole 5-year period, the $150 a
month ?
Mr, Goldstein, That is right.
Mr. Halley. It was never increased ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't think so. It may have gone up to $200.
Whatever fee is shown on that statement,
Mr, Halley, On L, & C, the second company, which your return
shows ran from April 1, 1947, to March 31, 1948, Guarini isn't even
a partner. How do you explan his bringing you that information?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. As far as I can remember — what is
that, 1948?
Mr. Halley. Yes, 1947-48. It started April 1, 1947, and ran
through to March of 1948. Of course, you also had B. & T. Trading
Co. during that period.
Mr. Goldstein. Those two in the same year?
Mr. Halley. Yes. At the same time, B. & T, ran,
Mr, Goldstein. I am pretty certain it was still Guarini.
Mr. Halley. Where are the premises of the G. & R. Trading Co.?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Was that the place at Hasbrouck Heights?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
128 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Who is Charles Handler?
Mr. Goldstein. Charles Handler is an attorney, a good friend of
mine.
Mr. Halley. How did he get onto this ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is one of those innocent, probably you call a
mistake that I made. I remember I was asked that question by Mr.
Elich, and I told him at the time — if you look at the return, if you look
at the first return, like G. & R., isn't there the address of a partner?
Isn't there?
Mr. Halley. G. & R. is 109 Roosevelt Avenue.
Mr. Goldstein. One of those partners lives there.
Mr. Halley. That is Guarini, is it not ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Or Lynch ?
Mr. Goldstein. Whoever it is. Whoever lives at 109.
Mr. Halley. Then on L. & C, it became in care of Charles Handler,
790 Broad Street, Newark.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. At that time, that would be in 1947, I think
I had an office at 850 Broad Street. I don't know what happened. The
best recollection I can give you is that I probably didn't have an ad-
dress, and I just used the next best address, not wanting mail to come
directly to us. He being a friend of mine, I just used it.
It must be understood, too, Mr. Halley, that is not a mailing ad-
dress. In other words, ordinarily you assume, when you see a
man's name in care of a certain person, that mail is sent there and he
would get it, but that isn't so. It is very misleading. The only mail
that would come there would be three blank returns from the Govern-
ment for social security and unemployment, and maybe withholding,
something like that. 1 remember telling the secretary as soon as she
gets this mail, whenever it comes, to send it to us. That is the best
I can recall. Mr, Handler didn't know what the whole thing was
about.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Did you do it without his permission?
Mr. Goldstein. I didn't think there was anything to it, just to
receive mail, just three blanks. It may not sound logical, but that is
the honest truth.
I remember his girl called me a few times, "What's this?" And I
just told her, "If you get this mail, send it to us."
Mr. Kostelanetz. I would like to ask you a few questions to clarify
my own mind. How many people worked for your company in 1947,
'47, '48, and 49, approximately ?
Mr. Goldstein. The average number ?
Mr. Kostelanetz. The average number.
Mr. Goldstein. I would say an average of 6 or 8, something like
that. Eight.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Do you require your employees to file with you
time sheets ?
Mr. Goldstein. For a good length of time they did not. Then it
was installed, and then it was discontinued. We didn't have that
type of system. We don't work by hours or anything like that. In
other words, if its is a day, it is put in the day book, and that is that.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Do you keep track of the clients that your men
work on ?
Mr. Goldstein. Whatever the men work on, yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129
Mr. KosTELANETZ. They file those sheets with your office ?
Mr, Goldstein. That is taken care of by Maurer. I believe right
now they make up a slip for expenses, not for the job, showing the
day and the amount of the expense, and that would be the amount of
money we pay for the expense. It isn't done at all for the purpose of
keeping track of the day. That is done from day to day by the girl
in the office.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Do you have records in your office showing how
much work your men do on the particular jobs ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. I would say so, yes.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. Then you would have records showing the
amount of work that your men did
Mr. Goldstein. Whatever time was spent by Mr. Diamond would
be shown.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. I See. I think we ought to see those records.
Mr. Halley. They will be made available to us ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Please don't give them to anybody in the meantime.
For L. & C, between April 1 and March 31, 1948, you reported gross
receipts of $590,185, is that right. If that figure is $590,185
Mr. Goldstein. Whatever you call is correct.
Mr. Halley. That is the actual win ?
Mr. Goldstein. It is the net win.
Mr. Halley. Yes. It is what they had left at the end of each day,
in adding up the day's win, for the year?
Mr. Goldstein. Are you reading the top figure now ?
Mr. Halley. The top figure.
Mr. Goldstein. That is before expenses ?
Mr. Halley. Yes, the net win.
Mr. Goldstein. The net meaning — you can have days where there
are gains, and some days there are losses. So, technically speaking,
the total gain could be $700,000.
Mr. Halley. This is gains less losses ?
Mr. Goldstein. Gains less losses, yes.
Mr. Halley. Then you deducted from that, $449,000 in expenses;
is that right, if the return so shows? You took that right off the
information that you were given by Guarini ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You distributed to Lynch $42,128.10?
Mr. Goldstein. Whatever it shows.
Mr. Halley. If that is what it shows ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And a similar amount to Catena ?
Mr. Goldstein. Whatever it shows.
Mr. Halley. And a similar amount to Joe Doto, Adonis?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Moretti got $14,042.70 out of that; is that correct?
Mr. Goldstein. Whatever it shows.
Mr. Halley. This, also, you understood to be a gambling business?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was it because of any feeling of guilty knowledge that
you put a phony address on for L. & C. Amusement Co.?
Mr. Goldstein. That is not a phony address.
130 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. It certainly is, care of Charles Handler, 790 Broad
Street, Newark, N. J.
Mr. Goldstein. I wouldn't call it phoney. You have an address.
What address did you have the year before ?
The Chairman. Mr. Goldstein, why didn't you put your address on
there instead of somebody else's ?
Mr. Goldstein. Senator, I don't know a particular reason. I just
probably felt that J was making up tax returns, and probably we
shouldn't get any mail direct. I am just thinking. It is hard for
me to realize what I had in mind, because we never get any mail direct
on any of these jobs, that I know of. That may have been my reason.
I don't know the actual reason. Senator. It may not look proper, but
the first address used was 109. That was one of the partner's address.
When you say "phony address," that is no different than any other
address.
Mr. Halley. This is an address that had nothing whatsoever to
do with the company. In fact. Handler didn't even know you were
using it.
Mr. Goldstein. That is correct.
Mr. Halley. Was it good accounting practice to take the partner-
ship shares from a man who wasn't even a partner, Guarini?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't understand what you mean.
Mr. Halley. You say you got your information from Guarini.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. On the shares to go to each partner; is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. He wasn't even a partner.
Mr. Goldstein. On the other one, the other company? Which
company?
Mr. Halley. L. & C.
Mr. Goldstein. From our standpoint, it was proper. We would
take it.
Mr. Halley. You never attempted to check with any partner?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever get a statement in writing from Guarini
as to the partnership share ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. You never saw any money? You just got sheets of
paper ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is right ; that is right.
The Chairman. How did you know these men got these partnei'ship
shares ?
Mr. Goldstein. All we could do. Senator, was to make up a balance
sheet and profit-and-loss statement, and show the distributive shares,
and then have them pick it up on their tax return. How would I
know whether they did pick it up, you mean? You only let them
know that they have such a share coming.
Mr. Halley. How did you let them know ?
Mr. Goldstein. In most cases we would make up, if I remember cor-
rectly, we make up a balance sheet and profit-and-loss statement.
Mr. Halley. Wliat did you do in the case of the L. & C. Amuse-
ment Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. Made up the statements.
, Mr. Halley. Did you send a copy to each partner ?
ORGANIZED CRUVIE IN INTERSTATE COJVIMERCE 131
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know whether it was sent or whether it was
delivered to him.
Mr. Haixey. How did you advise the partners of the income on
which they had to pay tax ?
Mr. Goldstein. It was either sent to them or Guarini took them
along in separate envelopes.
Mr. Halley. Let's go on to B. & T. Trading Co., 285 Windsor Koad,
Englewood, N. J.
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. It must be one of the partners there.
Will you look at the partnership return and look at some of the
addresses ?
Mr. Halley. You figure it is some of the partners ?
Mr. Goldstein. It must be.
Mr. Halley. We will check that later. That is your best
recollection ?
Mr. Goldstein. If you will just look at the tax return.
Mr. Halley. I don't see it. I don't want to hold it against you.
I just don't see it as being anybody's address.
Mr. GoLDSi"EiN. There is somebody at 285 Windsor.
Mr. Halley. But that is your best recollection?
Mr. Goldstein. My best recollection is that it is a partner's address.
Mr. Halley. There you reported gi'oss receipts, which would be
again net win, in the first line, of $313,531, is that right? You called
gross receipts, but it is really net win, isn't that right?
Mr. Goldstein. It is gross receipts, right.
Mr. Halley. For the business, I see you stated "Sporting Enter-
prise," in each case.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. That was the name submitted to us. That
is the name we decided to use.
Mr. Halley. Is that a fair description of the business?
]\Ir. Goldstein. You can call it anything you want.
Mr. Halley. That is in effect what you were doing, just ducking
the whole issue ?
Mr. Goldstein. There is no ducking.
Mr. Halley. Instead of calling it what it was, j'ou called it any-
thing 3^ou wanted ?
Mr. Goldstein. Wlien the Government comes around, the books
will be available for any examination in prior years. We didn't at-
tempt to hide anything.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever examined ?
Mr. Goldstein. I believe so. I am not sure.
Mr. Halley. Did you have a record to show on any examinations ?
Mr. Goldstein. We don't keep records.
Mr. Halley. For the B. & T., which operated during the same
period as the L. & C, from April 1, 1947, to March 31, 1948, you
showed a net income of $123,286, is that correct ? That would be after
deducting $190,000 in expenses from the net win.
!Mr. Goldstein. Whatever the return shows.
]SIr. Halley. The return shows the following figures, which I will
read, and I can presume they are correct ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, you can.
Mr. Halley. J. Doto- $12,328.60. A. Longano- $30,821.50. A.
Guarini, $30,821.50. S. Moretti, $49,314.40. Making a total of $123,-
286 distributed to partners, is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
132 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Do you have any doubt that these fellows kept sub-
stantial amounts of cash which were never reported to the Govern-
ment?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean do I feel
Mr. Halley. From what you know about the nature of the business.
Mr. Goldstein. You mean beyond what they show on the bank
roll?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. You mean, do I personally know ?
Mr. Halley. No, but from what you know of human nature and
from what you know of the gambling business.
Mr. Goldstein. I couldn't answer that.
Mr. Halley. Would you have any doubt that they have kept large
amounts of cash ?
Mr. Goldstein. They could or could not, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Halley. They were in an illegal business to start with, isn't
that right?
Mr. Goldstein. That is correct.
Mr. Halley. Dealing purely in cash ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Giving you such figures as, by their nature, you had
no way of checking ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. They count the cash each day and report to you as
winnings whatever they put on a piece of paper, is that right ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. They made no effort to bank any of the money, is that
right?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. It all went right into their pockets ?
Mr. Goldstein. Incidentally, I think at one time they tried to get
banking connections. They tried to get banking connections at one
time, and couldn't.
Mr. Halley. Why can't you get banking connections? Couldn't
they have taken their gross receipts-
Mr. Goldstein. It just comes back to me.
Mr. Halley. Tell us about that.
Mr. Goldstein. This was brought to the Lincoln National Bank at
one time, and they wouldn't accept it. I am pretty sure it was the
Lincoln National Bank. Some bank.
Mr. Halley. What was brought to them ?
Mr. Goldstein. Just the idea of whether they could bank there.
Senator Tobey. In other words, the Lincoln National Bank did not
want any fellowship with the gambling fraternity, is that right?
They said, "Unclean, unclean, and you are taboo. You can't do busi-
ness with us," is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know whether that was the reason.
Senator Tobey. Too bad income-tax men do not do the same thing.
Mr. Halley. How did you work it out with the Mercantile Baiik
to do the check cashing ?
Mr. Goldstein. Which bank is that?
Mr, Halley. The Merchants Banks of New York.
Mr. Goldstein. I never heard of them.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Max Stark ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133
Mr. Goldstein. I may have met him once or twice. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Now, look, this is a serious business.
Mr. Goldstein. I know it is a serious tiling. I may have met him
once. I don't even know whether I met him. I don't know whether
he is short or tall. I don't Icnow him.
Mr. Halley. He happens to be the man who cashed all the checks for
your principals, isn't he ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Halley. Your employers.
Mr. Goldstein. If you tell me, yes, that is right.
Mr. Halley. You say you may have met him. He would have
been an important man to you, would he not ^
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. He was their banking connection ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. You say so.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't he ^
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Halley. Didn't you know that he cashed their checks ?
INIr, Goldstein. No. Stark ''i I don't know. I don't know whether
I knew or not.
Mr. Halley. Did you or didn't you ?
Mr. Goldstein. How would I know ? Which company is that, L. &
C.,1948?
M)\ Halley. Any company.
Mr. Goldstein. AVhat do you mean, "any company"? Some com-
panies have no checks. Most of these companies have no checks.
Mr. Halley. Players come in and they get credit, and at the end of
the night they write out a check.
Mr. Goldstein. No. Some of these companies, I think you will
find, there are no checks at all.
]Mr. Halley. In some there are. Let's talk about the ones in which
there are.
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know which they are. I know the last 2 or
3 years, I think the last two companies were purely cash, no checks
at all.
Mr. Halley. In the companies that dealt with checks, let's take
1948
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know whether I would have any reason to
know that Stark was cashing checks. I don't know how I would
know that.
Mr. Halley. How did you know about the Lincoln National Bank
attempt to get banking connections ?
Mr. Goldstein. I think Guarini, or something came up at one time
with Guarini about seeing if they could get a bank account.
Mr. Halley. Did you suggest it would be wise to have a bank ac-
count and deposit the money ?
Mr. Goldstein. I think I did at one time, yes.
]\Ir. Halley. Who did you suggest that to ?
Mr. Goldstein. The only one I could is this Guarini.
Mr. Halley. Are you testifying here that you never met any of these
other people ?
Mr. Goldstein. No, I didn't say that.
134 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 'X,
Mr. Hallet. You could have suggested it to the others?
Mr. Goldstein. I had no occasion to suggest it to the others.
Mr. Hallet. Have you met all the other partners in these
companies?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean by "meeting" — I have met Joe Doto a
few times. That is in the last 6 years. We are talking about the last
6 years now, the total number of times.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever thank him for the business ?
Mr. Goldstein. He probably said hello to me, and "have a drink,"
or something.
J.Ir. Hallet. Were you introduced to him as his accountant ? Did
he know you were doing his accounting ?
Mr. Goldstein. I never discussed that.
Mr. Hallet. Wasn't there ever any mention made of the accounting
or the income taxes ?
ISIr. Goldstein. Not with him. I had no reason to discuss anything
with him.
Mr. Hallet. Never at any time ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Hallet. How about Salvatore Moretti ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know him ?
Mr, Goldstein. I have met him the same way, maybe twice in my
lifetime.
Mr. Hallet. Wliere did you meet Moretti ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know where I met him. I know I met him.
I don't know just where I met him. I couldn't definitely say, Mr.
Halley, where I met him.
Mr. Hallet. Where did you meet Doto ?
Mr. Goldstein. Doto, I know I met in Florida. I think that is the
first time I met him.
Mr. Hallet. Wliere did you see him in Florida ?
Mr. Goldstein. At the Colonial Inn.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever see him in Jersey ?
Mr. Goldstein. Jersey where?
Mr. Hallet. Anywhere.
Mr. Goldstein. In Jersey ?
Mr. Hallet. Let's get on with the figures.
Mr. Goldstein. It is only a question of whether I met him once or
twice. I wanted to be sure.
Mr. Hallet. We will get on with the figures, and get back to the
general matters.
The next company we take is Pal — how did that get its name, do
you know ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Hallet. Who picked the name?
Mr. Goldstein. It must have been Guarini. It must have been
him.
Mr. Hallet. You just got figures. Did you pick these names when
you filed the returns ?
Mr. (lOLr^s'ii.iN. No. I — when the return was filed? No. It had
to be established before that time.
Mr. Hallet. How was it established? ^
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 135
Mr. Goldstein. That would be established in the beginning.
Mr. Halley. How ?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean how was the name picked ?
Mr. Halley. Why does the name have to be established at the
beginning ?
Mr. Goldstein. Why would it_be?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. You have to file, there is some return you have to
file when you start a company, social security, or something like that.
Mr. Halley. Did you tile their social-security return ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You kept a list of employees?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And reported to the Social Security ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. On Pal Trading Co., between May 3, 1948, and Feb-
ruary 12, 1949
Mr. (toldstein. Excuse me. Wliat is that. May to February?
Mr. Halley. Yes. Is that right ?
Mr. Goldstein. I just wanted to get the dates.
Mr. Halley. Are they right ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. I just wanted to hear the dates.
Mr. Halley. That is what your return shows.
Mr. Goldstein. I want to get it for my recollection.
Mr. Halley. Here again, you have in care of Charles Handler, 790
Broad Street. I take it that, again, is fictitious.
Mr. Goldstein. That is not the proper word. I have given you the
circumstances. Whatever the circumstances were at that time, I have
explained.
Mr. Halley. Let's say it is untrue.
The Chairman. Unauthorized.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, Senator ; that is correct. You can call it un-
authorized, if you want to ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Gross receipts, which is the equivalent of net win-
nings, you reported $183,197. Would that be correct ?
Mr. Goldstein. You just call them all off.
Mr. Halley. Then income, after deducting $110,795 in expenses,
would be $72,402?
There you distributed to J. Lynch, $10,860; to J. Doto, $7,240.20;
to A. Guarini, $10,860.30; to A. Longano, $7,240.20; to S. Moretti,
$36,201. Is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Whatever the figures show.
Does this record indicate that that is based on information sub-
mitted to us when you say "correct"? I don't know whether that was
indicated before. I just want to make sure it is indicated.
Mr. Halley. I think you have said that quite clearly. It is informa-
tion which you neither checked nor had any opportunity to check?
Mr. Goldstein. That is correct, see.
Mr. Halley. Then the next company is General Trading Co., which
accounted between July 4, 1949, and January 19, 1950, is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. July 1949, to what? January 1950?
Mr. Halley. January 19, 1950.
Incidentally, you have mentioned that after 1948, no checks were
accepted. Was that the result of the Max Stark indictment?
136 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIMMERCE
Mr. Goldstein. No ; I don't think that had anything to do with it.
Mr. Halley. They canglit up with Max Stark and indicted him,
and finally put him in jail, didn't they ?
Mr. Goldstein. I am pretty sure there was no relation.
ISIr. Halley. Why were no checks accepted ?
Mr. Goldstein. It isn't a question of checks not being accepted.
They only dealt in cash.
Mr. Halley. AVhy?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. How did you find out ?
Mr. Goldstein. He told me. What I understand of it, there are
two types of places : The so-called sawdust place, so people can spit on
the floor; and what they call the high-class place. I believe, I am not
sure, these two last places were what you would call sawdust places,
I have never been in it, but sawdust meaning it is all cash. It couldn't
be in check. I don't think there ever has been a check. If any checks
are given, they must be cashed somewhere around the place, but they
are not part of the betting. The betting is all in cash.
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to discuss this matter ? I thought
all you did was get this sheet of paper.
Mr. Goldstein. It was just general information.
Mr. Halley. Who did you talk to about it?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't knoAv.
Mr. Halley. Who told you they weren't accepting any checks in
the last 2 years?
Mr. Goldstein. I am basing my assumption that the last two places
are what they call sawdust places, I am basing on that my assumption
there were no checks.
Mr. Halley. General Trading Corp., you filed the address as 109
Roosevelt Avenue, Hasbrouck Heights.
Mr. Goldstein. That must be one of the partners.
Mr. Halley. That is Guarini's address?
Mr. Goldstein. You can see that is an indication you don't see
Handler any more. It was corrected after that time.
Mr. Halley. Your gross receipts, as you re^Dorted them, or net wins,
$282,553 ; is that right ?
Mr. Goldstein. Y'es.
Mr. Halley. You showed expenses of $138,907?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And net income of $143,646 ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You distributed to J. Doto, Joe Adonis, $43,093.80;
is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. If that is what it shows ?
Mr. Goldstein, Whatever it shows. You call them off and I will
say, "yes."
Mr. Halley. Guarini, $21,546.90; is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And to S. Moretti, $50,276.10; is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And to Lynch, J. Lynch, $14,364.60?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 137
Mr. Halley. To A. Longano, $14,364.60; is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Actually, you have no way of knowing if this distribu-
tion was made or not / They split up the cash themselves their own
way ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. They did it each day ?
Mr. Goldstein. Split the cash each day ?
Mr. Halley. Yes. They didn't accumulate it for a year?
Mr. Goldstein. They would accumulate it and then they would
draw — many times during the period there were drawings. That is
what he submitted to us, like $70,000 or $50,000. That was their
distribution.
Mr, Halley. You would get a list of the drawings as they accu-
mulated the money?
Mr. Goldstein. They would say total drawn this day out of the
bank roll. We deducted it from the balance, and there would be a
net balance at the end of the day. That is the only way we could
cover the drawings.
Mr. Halley. Then the L. & L. Co, That is care of Joseph Stachei\
Twenty-fifth and Russell Place, Newark, N. J. Is he a real person ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen him ?
Mr. Goldstein. Oh, sure.
Mr. Halley. Wliere?
Mr. Goldstein. I do his tax-return work.
Mr, Halley, How long have you been doing his tax returns ?
Mr. Goldstein. It must be from about 1943 on, either 1943 or
1944 on.
Mr. Halley, What business has he been in? You say you know
him ?
Mr, Goldstein. Sure. He is in the music-box business.
Mr. Halley. Jukebox?
Mr. Goldstein. Jukebox business.
Mr. Halley. Does he have pinball machines ?
Mr. Goldstein. Pinball? Jukebox machines.
Mr. Halley. Pinballs are the little game that you shoot the balls.
You have seen pinball machines?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know what you call, I honestly don't know
what you mean by pinball.
Mr. Halley. They have a lot of balls you shoot around in the box.
Mr. Goldstein. And they light up the numbers light up, yes ; those
kind.
Mr. Halley. He is in that business, too ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Halley. Does he have slot machines?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. You don't know, or the answer is no ?
]\Ir. Goldstein. The answer is that I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Who gave you the information on the L. & L. Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein.
68958— 51— pt. 7-
138 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. 1947; tlie Saratoga operation from August 4, 1947,
to September 30, 1948.
Mr. Goldstein. Oh, tlie bookkeeper gave those.
Mr, Halley. Who was that?
Mr. Goldstein. Seymour Eisen.
Mr. Halley. He is the same man who did the bookkeeping for
Lansky down in Florida?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did Eisen go up to Saratoga ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. He kept the records up there ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you get daily sheets from him, too ?
Mr. Goldstein. No. There it was entirely different. He kept a
complete set of records himself. He did everything himself.
Mr. Halley. Did he give you the records, or just summaries?
Mr. Goldstein. It was just summaries. I helped him with the
return, and that is all there was to it.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see the records ?
Mr. Goldstein. I believe I did ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Where was that operation, at the Arrowhead Inn ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever up there ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. During that summer?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. This is the summer of 1947, is that right?
Mr. GoiJJSTEiN. That is right, 1947.
Mr. Halley. And also 1948, is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. From August 4, 1947, I think your return shows, it
ran to September 30, 1948, but they operated only the one summer?
Mr. Goldstein. They operated only 25 or 26 days.
Mr. Halley. In 1947?
Mr. Goldstein. In 1947.
Mr. Halley. You were in Saratoga ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How many times did you visit the Arrowhead Inn?
Mr. Goldstein. Two times that summer.
Mr. Halley, Did you go into the gambling room and gamble?
Mr. Goldstein. I rarely ever gamble. I probably stepped in over
there.
Mr, Halley, Who did you see there ? Did you see Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. Goldstein. I believe I did ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you see James Lynch ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes ; I think I did.
Mr. Halley. Did you see Stacher?
Mr. Goldstein, Stacher; yes,
Mr, Halley. You saw them all up at the Arrowhead Inn?
Mr. Goldstein, I did,
Mr, Halley, They had many of the same employees they had in
New Jersey, is that right ?
Mr, Goldstein, I wouldn't know. If you say so, then they have,
Mr, Halley, You wouldn't know that?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 139
Mr. Halley, You showed gross receipts or net wins of $183,634, is
that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And expenses of $174,042, with a net income of only
$9,592. Did you ever get an explanation of the small size of the
earnings ?
Mr. Goldstein. I asked about it. That is what the operation was.
It was just not a profitable operation, that is all.
Mr. Halley. You distributed $4,796 to Stacher; $2,398 to Lansky; -
and $2,398 to Lynch, is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. That Arrowhead place ran wide open, didn't it? I
mean, you didn't need a card or an introduction, or anything?
Mr. Goldstein. You know that.
Mr. Halley. You are the witness.
Mr. Goldstein. All those places operated that way up there.
Mr. Halley. Up where ?
Mr. Goldstein. Up at Saratoga. You can go to any of the places
and just walk right into them.
Mr. Halley. Anybody at any hotel could tell you where you could
go to gamble, isn't that right?
Mr. Goldstein. I wouldn't know about that, but I seem to recall
the whole place being wide open. You could hear voices on the street
telling about the horses and what not, the whole town. The answer
to that question is obvious. It is obvious to me. If you walk along —
I don't know what street it is — Broadway, you can hear it on the street
there, you can hear the results.
Mr. Halley. AVlien did you first work for Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. Goldstein. I first began to do his tax work for the year 1946.
Mr. Halley. How did you meet Lansky ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know how I met him. I know I knew him
a long time ago. I didn't have much dealing with him for many years,
but I knew him. I knew him when I was with Cohn.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Louis Eoth, an accountant in New York?
Mr. Goldstein. How do you spell it?
Mr. Halley. L-o-u-i-s R-o-t-h.
Mr. Goldstein. Louis Roth ?
Mr. Halley. You don't know him ?
Mr. Goldstein. I may have met him. I don't know the name. I
have no recollection at all of that name.
Mr. Halley. You don't remember who introduced you to Lansky?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. You began doing the Colonial Inn work?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean through Lansky ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. The first job I did for Lansky in connection with
doing his tax work was Beverly Club. That was the first time.
Mr. Halley. In New Orleans ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you do the return for the club, or just for Lansky ?
Mr. Goldstein. I did the tax work for Lansky, but in connection
with his share, his income, he wanted me to go down to Beverly.
Mr. Halley. And you went down and looked at their books?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
140 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley, He wanted to make sure he was getting a fair deal,
is that right ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, to make sure his taxes were properly paid.
Mr. Halley. Had you worked for Colonial Inn before you worked
for Lansky ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Did he introduce you to the Colonial Inn work?
When did you start on Colonial Inn?
Mr. Goldstein. That would be in the fall, sometime, in 1946. That
was the first time. In other words, the first year that I recall we did
the work was for the full year ending in 1947.
Mr. Halley. Was it possible that Rutkin introduced you to Lansky ?
How did you meet all these racketeers ?
Mr. Goldstein. How did I meet them? Rutkin, I met — let's go
down the line. Rutkin -I met in 1937 when I was with Colin, when I
was with Samuel R. Cohn & Co. I did the Jack Deschie Hotel. I
was sent down there to do an assignment. As the man doing the work^
I just met him. That was the first man I met.
Lansky, I don't know how I met. I have no recollection of whether
I met him in Florida. So that is two.
You say how did I meet all these ? I have explained all of these.
Mr. Halley. You have done Joe Adonis' work ?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean doing tax return as a partner ?
Mr. Halley. Yes. How about his Automotive Conveying Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't do any of his work.
Mr. Halley. Didn't you do that work for his Automobile Conveying
Co.?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. At no time?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. You do all of Longie Zwillman's work, don't you ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What do you do for Zwillman ?
Mr. Goldstein. I haven't prepared his tax return. I started to
prepare his tax return in 1948, but
Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Zwillman ?
Mr. Goldstein. Zwillman and Stacher, I met at one time. That
is the first time I ever met the whole group. That is how I got to be in
doing what I am now, part of this tax work.
Mr. Halley. Tell us about that.
Mr. Goldstein. I was asked by Stacher, I believe it was, after I
left Sam Cohn I think it was, to represent them in a litigation of
claims that they had against Reinfeld. That is where it all started.
If it hadn't been for that, I probably would be somewhere else today.
That is how it started. That is how I got to know Stacher and Zwill-
man.
Mr, Halley. That is this thing that Rutkin is now involved in a tax;
case about, is that right?
Mr. Goldstein, That is the thing he is involved in.
Mr. Halley. The $250,000 which he got from Reinfeld?
Mr. Goldstein. He got 250, and Zwillman got 358, which you know^
Mr. Halley. That goes a way back to the old prohibition days?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Maybe you don't know.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 141
You met them all when ?
Mr. Goldstein. You asked the question how I got to know all
these people.
Mr. Halley. When was that?
Mr. Goldstein. Really, the first time I ever got to know anybody
who amounted to anything was when I represented Zwillman and
Stacher in this litigation I just mentioned. That was the start. That
was probably my first contact. I was probably 40 years old at the
time. I continued to get work from the people that I knew, and I
got the work from them in the beginning.
Mr. Halley. You don't remember how you met Meyer Lansky?
Mr. Goldstein. No, that I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever do any work for Mike Lascari ?
Mr. Goldstein. He is part of the Public Service Co.
Mr. Halley. You mean the Public Service Tobacco Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. For which we do the accounting work. So we
automatically do his accounting work.
Mr. Halley. That is Zwilhnan's company, basically, isn't it?
Mr. Goldstein. He is a 50-percent partner, and Lascari is a 50-
percent partner.
Mr. Halley. For Zwillman you take care of Public Service To-
bacco Co.?
Mr. Goldstein. That is one.
Mr. Halley. Diamond T?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What is that, General Motors ?
Mr. Goldstein. It is now General IMotors.
Mr. Halley. Subsidiary?
Mr. Goldstein. GMC distributor.
Mr. Halley. Federal Automatic Co.?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Anything else for Zwillman?
Mr. Goldstein. Not that I recall.
Mr. Halley. You have been doing that since when ?
Mr. Goldstein. Public Service when I first met him. I think that
was the first job I got.
Mr. Halley. How did you get Manhattan Cigarette Vending Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. Whenever I got that, whatever years, I must have
gotten that through Zwillman.
Mr. Halley. Mike Lascari is in that; is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. He was. He has sold it since.
Mr. Halley. Mike Cappola was in that, too ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't he?
Mr. Goldstein. Manhattan Cigarette was owned by Lascari up to
a point.
Mr. Halley. They handled the sale of cigarettes from vending
machines; is that right?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What was the relationship between Mike Cappola
and the Manhattan Cigarette Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. We were doing the accounting work for Manhattan
Oigarette, and Mike Lascari sold out to two fellows called — they are
142 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
presently partners, and have been in there a year or 2 years. I don't
remember the names of the partners.
Mr. Halley. Didn't Manhattan Cigarette have a loan from Mike
Cappola?
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Do you know anything about Mike Cappola?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. You don't know who he is ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. He may have come down there once.
I wouldn't know, myself.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever told what business he was in?
Mr. Goldstein. No. I don't know. Was I ever told what business
he is in ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. What do you do for Consolidated Television?
Mr. Goldstein. We haven't done that for years, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. When did you do it?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't Imow, a couple of years ago we did the
work for Consolidated Television, and then they sold out — not sold
out, but they lost their money.
Mr. Halley. Who was in it ?
Mr. Goldstein. It was Lansky
Mr. Halley. Adonis was in it, too?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. Pokrass.
Mr. Halley. Louis Pokrass.
Mr. Goldstein. Louis Pokrass and his family. Wolf, who was a
trustee for Frank Costello.
Mr. Halley. Costello was in that through Wolf?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is that George Wolf?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
If you will ask me, I will tell you. I can't recall the others. There
are a couple other big ones, not too big. Another salesman in there,
a friend of Lansky's. I forget his name.
There is one other person who owned 20 percent in there. He must
have owned 20 or 25 percent.
Mr. Halley. At least, in Consolidated Television you had Lansky,
Adonis, and Costello through Wolf, is that right ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is right.
The Chairman. Who is Pokrass ?
Mr. Halley. Who is Pokrass?
Mr. Goldstein. Louis Pokrass. He was formerly, I think he lor-
merly owned the Cabanet Wine & Spirits Co., which was sold.
Mr. Halley. Where were they located ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. They had two big plants. They
were big wholesalers in the city.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever do any other work for Costello ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Just the Beverly Club and the Consolidated Tele-
vision?
Mr. Goldstein. That is all.
Mr. Halley. Nothing else?
Mr. Goldstein. Nothing else.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 143
Mr. Hallet. Have you had any other accounts with George Wolf?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Hallet. Or any other business from George Wolf ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. What other business have you gotten through Abner
Zwillman ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know of any other besides those three.
Mr. Hal'ley. Are vou still doing business for the Beverly Country
Club?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes and no. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. When did you last go down there ?
Mr. Goldstein. The early part of this year.
Mr. Halley. What month, March?
Mr. Goldstein. March, Februarv, or March, something like that,
1950.
Mr. Halley. Was that in connection with the return for 1949 ?
Mr. Goldstein. I think their fiscal year ends in November 1949.
I could have been down there either for their fiscal — it could be the
next 3 months. I don't know which. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. Halley. Did you do any work for O'Kourke and Erickson on
the Boca Raton Club ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever done any work for Erickson?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. None of any nature ?
Mr. Goldstein. No. That is the tragedy of it. That is where I
got my first publicity.
Mr. Halley. What was that ?
Mr. Goldstein. You know, before Hogan's grand jury.
Mr. Halley. Tell us.
Mr. Goldstein. It was nothing. I was called there as a big witness
for Erickson, and I think if he stepped on me he wouldn't know me.
Mr. Halley. But it so happened you had in your office tax returns
involving a lot of his enterprises ?
Mr. Goldstein. That is right, but it had nothing to do with
Erickson.
Mr. Halley. It had to do with what, Green Acres ?
Mr. Goldstein. Green Acres and Colonial.
Mr. Halley. Club Boheme ?
Mr. Goldstein. Boheme ; I don't know whether I had any informa-
tion about Boheme.
ISIr. Halley. Boheme was a part of Green Acres, wasn't it?
Mr. Goldstein. Separate.
Mr. Halley. Boheme was simply the outlet through which they
ran the big, unlimited New York crap game down there, the big crap
game that they had at Club Boheme. You have heard of it, haven't
you?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, I have heard of it.
Mr. Halley. Isn't the Club Boheme the vehicle through which that
was run ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know whether you call it vehicle. They
each had part. At one time they were part of Colonial, and at one
time they were separate. I can't distinguish them.
144 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE
Mr. Hallet. About those Florida enterprises, you got your infor-
mation from Florida?
Mr. Goldstein. Florida, yes.
Mr. Halley. And then you would make out and file returns ?
Mr. Goldstein. I wouldn't make it out. I would just assist him,
and Ben Eisen, his brother. I believe Ben Eisen worked on it, too.
Mr. Halley. But you actually filed it?
Mr. Goldstein. Oh, no. I assisted in the preparation.
Mr. Halley. What was your job?
Mr. Goldstein. Just to assist in the tax return, that is all.
Mr. Halley. Eisen had no connection with Beverly Country Club,
did he?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't think so. There is another accountant.
You mean the accounting firm ?
Mr. Halley. Who was that, Charles B. Murphy?
Mr. Goldstein. That is Murphy & Co.
Mr. Halley. They are in New Orleans, is that right?
Mr. GoLDsi-EiN. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you keep a daily diary for yourself ?
Mr. Goldstein. No, I never did.
Mr. Halley. Do you hold any financial interests directly or in-
directly for the benefit of Abner Zwillman?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, just one.
Mr. Halley. Wliat is' that?
Mr. Goldstein. In GMC, when they started that company, he
was concerned in his franchise, and I believe he felt if he showed
it in his name he wouldn't get the franchise. So a trust agreement
was drawn by Charles Handler in which I was the nominee for his
stock. When all returns were prepared, no matter what the returns
state otherwise, his name was listed as the stockholder, and so forth.
So there is no attempt in any way to do anything other than what
it was, a trust agreement.
Mr. Halley. That is the Diamond T Co., is it not?
Mr. Goldstein. It is now the GMC.
Mr. ITalley. That is the distributor for General Motors trucks?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever do any business for the Peoples Truck-
ing Co. ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. Halley. I think that will be all.
The Chairman. Mr. Goldstein, I am interested in this Consolidated
Television. It that in business now ?
Mr. Goldstein. What happened, Senator, is that originally Lansky
and these other people started it, and they started to manufacture
these big sets; you remember the ones that first came out for bars
and taverns? They thought they would make a lot of money. So
they made them, but they were poorly made. They were the dis-
tributors. They would set them up, and they were returned.
The first thing you know, whatever the investment was, was all
used up for experimental work, and so forth. There came a time
when Pokrass wanted more money. He had to have more money by
the individual stockholders, and they wouldn't put up any more.
The Chairman. Pokrass was the operating man ?
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 145
Mr. GoLDsi-EiN. Oh, yes, he was the president. His son was the
treasurer, or something.
So he went ahead, what he did was to go ahead with another group,
some other pepople entirely different from these people.
The Chairman. Do you know who the other people are that he went
ahead with ?
Mr. Goldstein. The new firm was Tele King Corp. I understand
it is doing very well. But that is his company, his and whoever he is
with.
The Chairman. When did this Consolidated Television go out of
business ?
Mr. Goldstein. I believe about 2 years ago, something like that.
The Chairman. How big an outfit was that? How much money
was invested in it?
Mr. Goldstein. I think about $150,000, something like that, some-
where around that figure.
The Chairman. $150,000 total ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes. It wasn't enough for that type of business.
The Chairman. Were they going to manufacture television sets?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, actually manufacture them. They had two
engineers who claimed that they had a certain new way of making a
television set, different from RCA or somebody like that. Then they
discovered, after a length of time, that these two fellows were not what
they should be.
The Chairman. Where was their place of business?
Mr. Goldstein. Twenty-sixtli Street.
The Chairman. Twenty-sixth Street in New York ?
JNIr. Goldstein. Near the West Side Highway.
The Chairman. It was in the city of New York?
Mr. Goldstein. City of New York. It is on a street between the
dock and that — what is that, is that Twelfth Avenue? Somewhere
near Twelfth Avenue or Eleventh Avenue, that big Terminal Building.
The Chairman. How much money did Costello, through Wolf, have
in this outfit ?
Mr. Goldstein. I think he had either $12,000 or $16,000, something
like that, $18,000.
The Chairman. Did Costello have an interest in one of the Florida
operations and you did the accounting work for them ?
Mr. Goldstein. Not to my knowledge, Senator.
The Chairman. The Club Boheme?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
The Chairman. The Lone Eagle ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Have you met Costello ?
Mr. Goldstein. I have seen him a few times. I am not what you
call friendly with him. I have seen him in public places, something
like that. I have seen him once in New Orleans, I believe, and once
or twice in New York. That is the extent of my knowledge.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Outside of seeing him at places, did you ever sit
down and talk with him ?
Mr. Goldstein. No. In New Orleans we may have set at a table.
He never discussed any business with me.
The Chairman. What did you go to New Orleans for ?
146 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Goldstein. There our firm was representative of Lansky. In
connection with his return, he wanted us to go to New Orleans.
The Chairman. You did the work for the partnership, didn't you,
Lansky, Costello ? You did the work for the Beverly Country Club ?
Mr. Goldstein. We didn't do the work. There were accountants,
and so forth. I just went down there.
The Chairman. You were Costello's accountant in that case ?
Mr. Goldstein. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you work with Mr. Murphy in getting up these
tax returns for the Beverly Country Club ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Murphy come up here to see you ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't recall Murphy coming up here.
The Chairman. Has he ever been up here to see you ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't think so.
The Chairman. How many times have you been down to see him ?
Mr. Goldstein. It depends on the year. The first year, in 1946,
I may have been down there once or twice. I think I skipped a year.
I went down there for another 6 or 8 months. There was one year in
which I went about three times.
The Chairman. "\^^ien have you been down last ?
Mr. Goldstein. The early part of this year.
The Chairman. You knew that Costello had an interest in the
Beverly Club?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
The Chairman. What was the portion of interest of the partners,
Phil Kastel and Lansky ? How much did each of them own, do you
know ?
Mr. Goldstein. Originally, it was a paTtnership. One of the things
I went down there in connection with that tax work was that they
converted from a partnership into a corporation.
The Chairman. Was it an equal partnership, one-third each ?
Mr. Goldstein. No, there were other partners, Senator; a fellow
named Rickefor. I don't think I ever met him. I don't know who
he is.
The Chairman. AYho was the other partner ?
Mr. Goldstein. Dudley something, I don't know what his second
name is, owned about 3 percent.
The Chairman. AVas Carlos Marcello
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
The Chairman. AVas he a partner ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
The Chairman. Who is Carlos Marcello ?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't know. I have seen him once or twice.
Mr. Kostelanetz. You say Dudley is a partner where ?
Mr. Goldstein. In Beverly Country Club.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Do you know Dudley's second name ?
Mr. Goldstein. It is Giger-something. Gigerman.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Is he related to any of the other people here?
Mr. Goldstein. I think he is some relation to Costello. I don't
know.
The Chairman. He is a brother-in-law, isn't he, of Costello's?
Mr. GoLDSi-EiN. I don't know his relation.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 147
The Chairman. When was this partnership wound up in corpora-
tion form ?
Mr. Goldstein. At the end of the fiscal year 1947, something like
that.
The Chairman. The end of the fiscal year 1947?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes ; sometime in 1947, in October.
The Chairman. Then when the corporation was formed, who were
the stockholders of the corporation ?
Mr. Goldstein. The same ones, except
The Chairman. Hoav much of it does Lansky own ?
Mr. Goldstein. You mean today ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Goldstein. He is out of it today.
The Chairman. When did he get out ?
Mr. Goldstein. He sold out in 1948, 1 believe.
The Chairman. How much of a partner was he during the days of
the partnership ?
Mr. Goldstein. The tax return would show that. Approximately
20 percent, I think, 20 or 25. I don't know the exact figure.
The Chairman. Do you do the tax work for this Dudley, whatever
liis last name is ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
The Chairman. Or Rickefor?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
The Chairman. Anything else ?
Boris, do you have any questions?
Mr. Kostelanetz. No.
Mr. H alley. We would like to test your personal books and the rec-
ords of your business.
Mr. Goldstein. What year?
Mr. Halley. For the years 1945 to date.
The Chairman. And, Mr. Goldstein, if we need you any more, the
subpena which has been served on you will be a continuing one with-
out the necessity of serving another one.
Mr. Halley. Will the committee instruct the witness that pur-
suant to that subpena, he is to produce before the committee his per-
sonal books and records, and the records of his business, since 1945 ?
Mr. Goldstein. By personal, do you mean the partnership?
Mr. HxVLLEY. And any of your own business records.
Mr. Goldstein. I haven't any records.
Mr. Halley. Whatever you have.
The Chairman. That is all right. You are instructed to do that.
When do you want him to do that ?
Mr. Halley. He can bring them in tomorrow, or we can arrange
to have somebody go look at them.
Mr. Goldstein. That is a lot better.
The Chairman. Mr. Kostelanetz will let you know who will be
there.
Mr. Goldstein. Will you let me know a day or two in advance ? I
have to get these things together. I don't know where they are.
Some are in New York.
The Chairman. What other operations in Saratoga did you make
out the tax returns for, besides Mr. Lansliy's Arrowhead Inn?
Mr. Goldstein. I don't recall any.
148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Do you remember any at all ?
Mr. Goldstein. No. I don't recall any. I was trying to think.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Lansky operate up there during the 1949'
season ?
Mr. Goldstein. Oh, no. It would be in his return.
The Chairman. What?
Mr. Goldstein. It would be in his tax return.
The Chairman. You made them out, did you not ?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes.
The Chairman. You should remember last year whether he oper-
ated.
jNIr. Goldstein. You asked me, and I said "No." You asked me-
whether he operated, and I said "No," It would be in his return if he
did.
The Chairman. When is the last time he operated ?
Mr. Goldstein. 1947.
Tlie Chairman. You made out no Saratoga return since that time?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
The Chairman. How about James Kutkin ? What businesses does
he have, do you know ?
Mr. Goldstein. No.
The Chairman. You make out his return?
Mr. Goldstein. He just has stock sales he has had in 1 or 2 years.
He has had that profit in 1945, I remember. He skipped a year or-
two. I don't know what he had in 1948, some miscellaneous income.
I don't know exactly. I know there is no business.
The Chairman. Where is he now ?
Mr. Goldstein. In the courtroom being tried, in Newark, for in-
come-tax evasion.
The Chairman. All right, thank you, Mr, Goldstein.
Mr. Elich. Make that Tuesday morning, Mr. Goldstein, at 10 -My
in your office in Newark.
The Chairman. All right, sir, we thank you. We are sorry we kept
you so late.
(Witness excused.)
The Chairman. Mr. Lansky, do you solemnly swear the testi-
mony you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth y.
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Lansky. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MEYER LANSKY, NEW YOEK CITY, N. Y.
The Chairman. How old are you, Mr. Lansky ?
Mr. Lansky. Forty-eight.
May I ask you if this is the subpena? I want it known on the-
record that I was subpenaed.
The Chairman. Yes, sir ; that is the subpena.
May I ask you, did you bring all these books and records we asked
for? J
Mr. Lansky. No.
The Chairman, How about it ?
Mr, Lansky. I decline, on the ground that it may tend to incrim-
inate me.
The Chairman. We might as well get started in the regular way.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149
Mr. Halley. What is your full name?
Mr. Lansky. Meyer Lansky.
Mr. Halley. Your address?
Mr. Lansky. 36 East Thirty-sixth Street, New York City.
Mr. Halley. How long have you lived there?
Mr. Lansky. One year.
Mr. Halley. Prior to that, where did you live ?
Mr. Lansky. Prior to that, I lived at 40 Central Park South.
Mr. Halley. How long did you live there?
Mr. Lansky. Maybe 2 years. I am not sure.
Mr. Halley. Prior to that, where did you live ?
Mr. Lansky. 211 Central Park West.
Mr. Halley. For how long?
Mr. Lansky. Maybe 4 years.
Mr. Halley. Are you married ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any children?
Mr. Lansky. Three children.
Mr. Halley. What is your business ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you now have any legitimate business?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Under what law would it tend to incriminate you,
Mr. Lansky?
Mr. Lansky. Well, gentlemen, I am being investigated for income
tax, and I feel anything may lead or tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Who is investigating you for income tax ?
Mr. Lansky. I guess the Treasury Department.
Mr. Halley. Do you know it or do you suspect it ?
Mr. Lansky. From all the rumors and evidence that I read in the
newspapers.
Mr. Halley. Is it your position that any answers to questions con-
cerning your business would tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Lansky. That it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. I advise you that the mere fact that it might tend to
incriminate you is not a sufficient answer. If you said it would
Mr. Lansky. I guess it would.
Mr. Halley. You think it would tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Lansky. I think so.
The Chairman. Let us get back now. The question was asked, what
business you were in. Did you refuse to answer that question ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. The chairman orders you to answer. Do you refuse
to answer?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer for the same reason, sir.
Mr. Halley. You were ordered, pursuant to this subpena, to pro-
duce certain books and records, is that right ?
The Chairman. Before you get to that.
Who is your lawyer, Mr. Lansky ?
Mr. Lansky. My lawyer is Mr. Polakoff.
150 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Is he in New York City ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
The Chairman. Moe?
Mr. Lansky. Correct.
The Chairman. Have you advised with your lawyer?
Mr. Lansky. I did, counsel.
Mr. Halley. This is Senator Kefauver.
Mr. Lansky. Pardon me.
The Chairman. We, of course, give you an opportunity of having
your lawyer here if you want to have your lawyer here.
Mr. Lansky. I don't think it is necessary.
The Chairman. You do not want to have your lawyer here? I
mean, you advised with him and you know what your answei's are
going to be ?
Mr. Lansky. That is right.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. This subpena orders you to produce certain books and
records, is that correct ?
Mr. Lansky. Eight.
Mr. Halley. Do you have books and records ?
]Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. I advise you to consult with your attorney, because
the law is that you must produce them. You may refuse, having
produced them at the hearing room, to allow the committee to see
them; but you must produce them in order to begin to assert your
privilege.
Mr. Lansky. I don't know that, counsel.
Mr. Halley. Will you consult with your attorney ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
The Chairman. The chairman orders you to produce them. Da
you refuse to produce them?
Mr. Lansky. He just told me that I should consult with my attorney.
Mr. Halley. Until you have consulted, do you persist in your re-
fusal to produce your books and records ? ,
Mr. Lansky. You asked me to consult my attorney, or did I consult ?
Mr. Halley. You were asked first, did you, and you said you did.
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You said on the basis of that, you just came in without
even bringing with you your books and records ?
Mr. Lansky. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You are now asked
Mr. Lansky. My attorney told me that I should decline to produce
them.
Mr. Halley. You are now asked to return, bringing with you the
books and records ; and then raising the question, after the books and
records are physically before this committee, as to whether you must
produce them for inspection.
Mr. Lansky. I see.
Mr. Halley. I will ask the committee to instnict you to return with
llie books and records.
The Chairman. Yes. You have already been instructed. Your
subpena instructs you to produce the books and records. The chairman.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 151
of the committee will now instruct you again to produce thfe books
and records in the morning at 9 : 30 when the committee meets.
Mr. H ALLEY. Do you know Frank Costello ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr, Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr, Lansky. Oh, I don't know. Many years.
Mr. Halijey. More tlian 10 years ?
Mr. Lansky. I think so. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Wlio introduced you to him ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him?
Mr. Lansky. A long time.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Erickson?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jimmie Alo ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Strader ?
Mr. Lanskt. I couldn't tell you a lot of people by name. Some
people I may know, but I wouldn't remember names.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Charles Fischetti ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco Fischetti ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Accardo ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes,
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Dragna ?
Mr. Lansky. I think so.
Mr. Halley. Do you know John Rosselli ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Phil Kastel ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Gizzo?
Mr. Lansky. I may have met him.
Mr. Halley, Do you know Johnny King?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike Cappola?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Have you had business dealings with any of these
people ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Who is your accountant today ?
Mr. Lansky. Today?
Mr. Halley. Who handles your accounting work?
Mr. Lansky. Goldstein.
The Chairman. 1 did not understand.
Mr. Lansky. George Goldstein.
Mr. Halley. I. George Goldstein. Do Eisen & Eisen, of Florida,
handle any of your accounts ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Does an attorney named Murphy handle any of your
accounts and work?
r52 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Lansky, I don't know,
Mr. Halley. Did you know Bugsy Siegel?
Mr, Lansky. Yes.
Mr. PIalley. Do you know Mickey Cohen ?
Mr. Lansky. No.
Mr. Halley. You do not know Mickey Cohen ?
Mr. Lansky. No ; I don't.
Mr. Halley, I believe I asked you if you knew Phil Kastel.
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Longie Zwillman ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in a business involving television ?
Mr, Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in the gambling business ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Saratoga Springs, N. Y.?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley, Even your presence in the city of Saratoga Springs?
Mr. Lansky. No; but it may lead, just as I say, through my income
tax
Mr. Halley. How would it affect your income tax ?
Mr. Lansky. To questions that may tend to incriminate me, directly
or indirectly.
Mr. Halley. How would it affect your income taxes whether you
had ever been in the city of Saratoga Springs ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know, but I just want to reserve my privilege
and my right not to incriminate myself.
Mr. Halley. Will the chairman please instruct the witness to
answer the question?
The Chairman. Mr. Lansky, you are instructed to answer these
questions. Can we have the understanding that if, in the opinion of
the chairman, any question counsel asks you is not a proper question,
I will tell you not to answer it? Otherwise, you are instructed to
answer every question that is asked you.
Mr. Lansky. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You understand that?
Mr. Lansky. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have an interest in the Flamingo Hotel
at Las Vegas?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in Las Vegas, Nev. ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know James Lynch ?
;Mr. Lansky. Who?
INIr. Halley. James Lynch.
Mr. Lansky. Lynch?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joseph Stacher?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in a business with James Lynch or
Joseph Stacher^
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Gerald Catena ?
Mr, Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ?
Mv. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Moretti?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Anthony Longano ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know if I know him. I may know him if I
see him.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in Chicago ?
Mr. Lansky. Was I ever in Chicago 'i
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the Lexington Hotel in the city of
Chicago?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Al Capone ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know if I ever knew him or not. I may have
seen him. I couldn't say if I knew him.
J\Ir. Halley. The Lexington Hotel, if I may refresh your memory,
was the Capone headquarters in Chicago. Were you ever at the
Capone headquarters at the Lexington Hotel in Chicago?
Mr. Lansky. No.
Mr. Halley. You don't know ? You might have been ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know. I decline to answer that question on
the ground that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. You are fishing for a reason now.
Mr. Lansky. I am not fishing for any reason.
Mr. Halley. The answer is very simple: Were you ever in the
Capone headquarters in Chicago?
]Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Mr. Lansky, the Capone headquarters that we are
referring to was back prior to 1935.
Mr. Lansky. I don't know. All these questions may be leading,
and I don't know where
The Chairman. Prior to 1935, were you ever in the Capone head-
quarters in the Lexington Hotel in Chicago ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer, counsel, on the ground that it may
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. AVere you ever in the Woff ord Hotel in Miami Beach ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley, Were you ever in the Boulevard Hotel at Miami
Beach ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know. I couldn't say.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Abe Allenberg ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
68958— 51— pt. 7 11
154 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Lanskt. Maybe about 12 years or so.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the Robert Richter Hotel in Miami
Beach?
Mr. Lanskt. I think so.
Mr. Halley. When were you hast there ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know. I may have been there last year.
Mr. Halley. In the Robert Richter Hotel ?
Mr. Lansky. Maybe.
Mr. Halley. Did you stay at the Robert Richter Hotel ?
Mr. Lansky. I never stayed there.
Mr. Halley. Where do you stay at Miami Beach ? What is the last
hotel at which you stayed ?
Mr. Lansky. The last hotel? I didn't stay in any hotel in Miami
Beach.
Wait a minute. I stayed at the Last Horizon, or some name like
that.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with Anthony Guarini ?
Mr. Lansky. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with Anthony Guarini?
Mr. Lansky. Anthony
Mr. Halley. Guarini.
Mr. Lansky. Guarini ?
Mr. Halley. Guarini, G-u-a-r-i-n-i.
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with Joseph Stacher ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with James Lynch ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the .ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. You believe that the mere answers to those questions
would involve you in an income-tax charge ?
Mr. Lansky. Maybe.
Mr. Halley. The answer must be that you think those answers
would tend to incriminate you.
Mr. Lansky. I think it would.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any basis for asserting that answer,
except the mere allegation?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know how to answer that in legal terms.
]\Ir. Halley. Were you ever in the premises of the Arrowhead Inn^
at Saratoga Springs?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
]\Ir. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Arrowhead Inn at Saratoga
Springs ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of Saratoga Springs, N. Y. ?
Mr. Lansky. Sure I did.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
Did you ever hear of the Beverly Club in New Orleans?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 155
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the Beverly Club in New Orleans?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on he ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Phil Kastel ?
Mr. Lansky. Did I ever see him ? Sure, I saw him.
Mr. Halley. You know him ?
Mr. Lansky, Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him in the Beverly Club ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley, I think, on the record, I have no further questions,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. ]Mr. Lansky, prior to 1910, 10 years ago, were you
in any business transaction with Frank Costello?
]Mr, Lansky, I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Prior to 1940, were you in any gambling business?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman, Did vou have any business at Saratoga Springs
prior to 1940?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
The Chairman, The reason I am putting it in 1940, which I think
I should explain to you — you can take my word for this — whether it
be an income tax case or a gambling case or anything else, any viola-
tion prior to 1940, the statute of limitations would have run against it.
On that basis, with that explanation, do you still refuse to answer
these questions about what you did prior to 1940 ?
Mr. Lansky, Yes, ]\Ir. Chairman, I still decline to answer on the
groimd that it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know Charles Fischetti ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes. sir.
The Chairman, Have you ever been in any business transactions
with him ?
Mr, Lansky, I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
The Chair:man, Have you ever been convicted of any offense?
Mr, Lansky, Have I ?
The Chairman, Yes,
Mr, Lansky. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When and what?
Mr. Lansky. I was convicted for the Prohibition Act, possession.
The Chairman. When was that ?
Mr. Lansky. Away back around 1931 or '32.
The Chairman. What else ?
Mr. Lansky, I was convicted for a gambling offense. That is all
I know, unless you have something different.
The Chairman, You would know whether you have been or not.
Mr. Lansky. I mean, it is so far back. I only remember the Pro-
hibition Act.
The Chairman. Have you been convicted in the past 10 years ?
Mr. Lansky. I was convicted here recently, last month.
The Chairman. I mean aside from this thing last month.
156 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Lansky. All that I remember is possession under the Liquor
Act.
The Chairmax. On the basis of your refusal to answer, there is not
much use asking you any further questions.
Mr. Halley. I would like to suggest that he come tomorrow morn-
ing.
The Chairman. The committee will reconvene at 9 : 30 in the morn-
ing, which will give you a further opportunity of again consulting with
your lawyer and having him here, if you want to have him here. You
have been ordered to bring in the record called for in the subpena.
Let us give him the subpena back.
Mr. KosTELANETZ. May I ask him a short question ?
The Chairman. You will be instructed to come back at 9 : 30, at the
same place, with your records, and with your lawyer if you wish to
have him.
Mr. Kostelanetz has two or three questions.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Do you know Charles "Lucky" Luciano? | \\
Mr. Lansky. Yes. I
Mr. Kostelanetz. How long have you known him, sir?
Mr. Lansky. A long time.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Within the last 2 years, did you have occasion to
see him ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Did you go to Italy, sir ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend
to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Have you ever been to Italy ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. When did you see "Lucky" Luciano last?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it may tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Lansky, that is all. We will see you
in the morning at 9 : 30.
(Thereupon, at 8:10 p. m., a recess was taken until 9:30 a. m.,
Thursday, October 12, 1950.)
INVESTIGATION OF OEGANIZED CKIME IN INTEESTATE
COMMERCE
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 12, 1950
United States Senate,
* Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
New York, N. Y.
EXECUTIVE SESSION
The committee met, pursuant to recess, at 10 a. m., in room 2804,
United States Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Senator
Estes Kefauver, chairman of the committee, presiding.
Present : Senators Kefauver and Tobey.
Also present: Rudolph Halley, chief counsel; Boris Kostelanetz,
assistant counsel ; John F. Elich, Patrick Murray, Thomas E. Myers,
and John Murphy, investigators; Nat K. Perlow, of Senator Kefau-
ver's staff; Nathan Frankel, CPA, New York committee stall'; and
Julius Calm, administrative assistant to Senator Wiley.
Irving H. Saypol, United States attorney, southern district of New
York.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF MEYER LANSKY, NEW YORK, N. Y.,
ACCOMPANIED BY MOSES POLAKOFF, ATTORNEY, NEW YORK,
N. Y.
The Chairman. Mr. Lansky, you were on the stand yesterday.
Mr. Lansky. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And this is ?
l\Ir. PoLAKorr. Moses Polakoff, 475 Fifth Avenue, New York City.
The telephone number is Lexington 2-2G00.
The Chairman. I have heard of you. You were in the Luciano case,
>veren't you ?
Mr. Polakoff. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. You were counsel for Luciano ?
Mr. Polakoff. I was.
Senator Tobey. How did you become counsel for such a dirty rat as
that ? Aren't there some ethics in the legal profession ?
]Mr. Polakoff. INIay I ask who you are, sir ?
Senator Tobey. My name is Senator Tobey. That isn't germane to
this hearing but just a question of liuman interest. There are some
men beyond the pale. He is one of them.
Mr. Polakoff. May I answer ?
Senator Tobey. Go ahead.
157
158 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. PoLAKOFF. I don't want to get into any controversy with you
about that subject at the present time, but under our Constitution
every person is entitled to his day in court
Senator Tobey. I see.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. Whether he is innocent or not. When the day
comes that a person becomes beyond the pale of justice, that means
our liberty is gone. Minorities and undesirables and persons with
bad reputations are more entitled to the protection of the law than
are the so-called honorable people. I don't have to apologize to
you—
Senator Tobey. I didn't ask you to.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. Or anyone else for whom I represent.
Senator Tobey. I look upon you in amazement.
]Mr. PuLAKoi'F. I look upon you in amazement, a Senator of the
United States, for making such a statement.
Senator Tobey. Let me say something to you. If I were counsel
and that dirty rat came in, I would say, "You are entitled to repre-
.sentation but you can't get it from me. I will have no fellowship
with you. Get out of my office and find your representation some-
where else."
Mr. PoLAKOFF. That is your privilege.
Senator Tobey. Exactly.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. But it is not your privilege to criticize someone
else.
Senator Tobey. I didn't criticize. I asked you why you did it. I
asked simply for information.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. Because I thought he was entitled to his da}' in
court, and he had his day in court.
Senator Tobey. I won't say any more. I reserve my opinion.
The Chairman. Anyway, Mr. Lansky is the witness. Mr. Polakoff
is appearing as counsel.
Yesterday we asked Mr. Ltinsky several questions, many of which
he refused to answer. When we left yesterday afternoon we in-
structed Mr. Lansky to bring the books and records called for in the
subpena and also suggested that he consult again with his counsel
and invited him, if he wished to, to bring his counsel with him this
morning. And that is the reason you are here.
Mr. Polakoff. Yes, sir. JNIr. Lansky so informed me.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Lansky, the subpena that was served upon you
called for the production of certain books and records, and yesterday
you were advised by the committee that it was your duty under the
terms of that subpena to produce those books in court, that is, before
the committee, and then if you had any questions of constitutional
privilege to assert, you might assert them, but the committee is en-
titled to the physical production of those books before the consti-
tutional privilege can be raised.
Mr. Polakoff. INIr. Halley, I wasn't sure of my grounds. Person-
ally, I think you are wrong. I think there is a difference between
books of an association, a corporation, and books of an individual
who is subpenaed and who asserts his constitutional right. I didn't
have a chance to check the cases between 10 last night and 8 : 30 this
morning. I advised him for the present, until I had a chance to
recheck the subject, that he do not produce the books, and I Avould
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVEVIERCE 159
do that most respectfully. I would like the opportunity of consider-
ing the subject for as reasonable time as the committee sees fit, and
atlhe next meeting I would be perfectly willing to make a more defi-
nite opinion as to whether he should produce them or not. If I think
he should, he will, and he will then raise his constitutional rights.
But I am of the opinion, based on my general knowledge of the law,
but without having made an immediate check, that he need not pro-
duce them. So there is no desire to be in contempt of the committee.
It is just a desire to reserve my client's rights. I respectfully ask
that you defer that question until a reasonable time, until your next
meeting. I tried to read the recent cases this morning, the one the
Supreme Court decided this May entitled "f/. S. v. Bryan in the 1949
term, and U. 8. v. Fleischman.^'' They deal with the very same ques-
tion, but it didn't cover the subject as an individual. I think under
the Wilson case, the old cases, I am right, but I say that with hesita-
tion. I may be wrong.
The Chairman. The difficulty about the matter is that Mr. Lansky
had this subpena for some time. He was ordered by the subpena to
bring liis books in. He didn't do so yesterday. We continued the
matter over until this ijiorning. Our hearing in Xew York is termi-
nating at 3 o'clock or 2 : 30 this afternoon.
]Mr. PoLAKOFF. We would be perfectly willing to appear in Wash-
ington or any other place.
The CiiAiRMAX. Yes, I know. On this basis we would never get
through. I am sure you appreciate that.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. I do, Senator.
The Chairman. So we will just have to take the record at the pres-
ent time that JNIr. Lansky continues his refusal to produce the books
and records called for.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. Senator. I would like the understanding that there
is no intent on the part of Mr. Lansky or myself to impede or delay
the investigation. I told INIr. Lansky that I was of the opinion that
the subpena served upon him was an invalid one, if he wanted to stall
for time, I think it was invalid. It called for a time when the com-
mittee was not in session and it had an indefinite date. However, I
told him to honor the telegram. It came all of a sudden. I thought
lie would get a few days' notice where to appear. We usually leave
things to the last minute unfortunately in law practice.
The Chairman. Very well. Mr. Lansky was also asked a number
of questions yesterday about business connections he had. Do you
continue to refuse to answer those questions?
Mr. Lansky. Yes. sir.
Mr. Polakoff. That is on my advice, sir. Anything associated
with his business would incriminate him.
Mr. Halley. Before we get into that phase of it, I would like to
state, Mr. Polakoff. that in my opinion the subpena may well cover,
if surh books do exist, the books of associations, informal unincor-
porated associations.
Mr. Polakoff. If such things exist, if he had those books, I think
you would be entitled to them,
Mr. Haixey. In the absence of the production of any books, the
committee is not going to inquii-e as to what books he might produce
if he were inclined to bring any in court.
160 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. PoLAKOFF. Mr. Halley, if you will look at the subpena, you
will note that the subpena calls for his personal records and no others.
Mr, Halley. His personal records might include the records of
certain partnerships and associations.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. I think a partnership would be under the same
status as an individual.
Mr. Halley. You stated you were unprepared to argue the law.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. No, I am not.
Mr. Halley. We want to make it i^erfectly clear that your state-
ment excluding possibly from your argument the books of associations
and partnerships, you weren't thereby inferentially excluding them
from the subpena.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. No. I meant associations such as were investigated
by the committee in the Fleischman case.
The Chairman. I think we understand one another. Are there
any other questions, Mr. Halley ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Lansky, were you ever in the city of Saratoga, N. Y. ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer.
]Mr. PoLAKOFF. You can answer that.
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the Colonial Inn in the city of
Saratoga ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it would in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. I meant the Arrowhead Inn. Were you ever in the
Arrowliead Inn ?
]\Ir. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it would in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever stepped inside the premises?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it would in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been to Italy ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. When were you in Italy ?
Mr. Lansky. 1949.
Mr. Halley. How long were you in Italy ?
Mr. Lansky. I think about 14 days.
Mr. Halley. What cities did you visit in Italy?
Mr. Lansky. I visited Rome, I visited Naples.
Mr. Halley. Did you visit any other city ?
Mr. Lansky. No, outside where the boat stopped.
Mr. Halley. Did you see Lucky Luciano in Italy?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it would in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. What law do you have in mind ?
The Chairman. That is all right. He declines to answer.
Mr. Halley. You decline to say whether or not you saw Charles
Lucky Luciano in Italy?
Mr. Lansky. Yes, sir.
ISIr. Halley. Did you have any business conferences while you were
in Italy with anyone ?
(Witness and counsel conferring.)
Mr. Lansky. I didn't have any business conferences with anyone.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161
Mr. Halley. When did you leave the United States in 1949?
Mr. Lansky. It was bite in June. I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. Halley. How long were you out of the United States ?
Mr. Lansky. Maybe 2 months.
Mr. Halley. Did you travel by boat?
Mr. Lansky. I traveled by boat. I traveled by plane. I came back
by boat.
Mr. Halley. You crossed the ocean by boat ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where was your first stop in Europe ?
Mr. Lansky. The first — where I got off ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Lansky. I got off at Naples.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in Naples ?
Mr. Lansky. Oh, just a couple of days.
Mr. Halley. Did you visit Sicily ?
Mr. Lansky. No. The boat stopped at Palermo for about 6 hours.
Mr. Halley. Did you get off the boat ?
Mr. Lansky. I got off the boat and went sightseeing.
Mr. Halley. Then you went to Naples. How long did you stay in
Naples ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't remember. It was 3 days, or something like
that. I went sightseeing with Cook's Tour.
Mr. Halley. Capri ?
Mr. Lansky. Capri.
Mr. Halley. Did you see Vesuvius ?
Mr. Lansky. No, Vesuvio was dead.
Mr. Halley. Did you go to Pompeii ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You went through Pompeii ?
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. When you left Naples where did you go ?
Mr. Lansky. To Rome.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in Rome ?
Mr. Lansky. Maybe 4 or 5 days. I don't remember. I am not
definite. Something like that.
Mr. Halley. Were you traveling alone or with somebody?
Mr. Lansky. With my wife.
Mr. Halley. Anyone else ?
Mr. Lansky. No one else.
Mr. Halley, From Rome where did you go ?
Mr. Lansky. To Nice.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in Nice ? '^
Mr. Lansky. I didn't stay in Nice. I stayed in a town a couple
of miles away.
Mr. Halley. Cannes?
Mr. Lansky. You've got me. I think it was in Nice. Cannes is the
more popular place. I couldn't get in there. I stayed in the other
place.
Mr. Halley. How long were you there ?
Mr. Lansky. I don't know, a week or a couple of days over.
Mr. Halley. Where did you go from Nice ?
Mr. Lansky. I went to Paris.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in Paris ?
162 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Lansky. No, I went to Switzerland for a couple of days, and
from Switzerland I went to Paris. I waited there until the boat left.
Mr. Halley. From Paris you came to the United States?
Mr. Lansky. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Have you been in communication with Charles Luci-
ano within the last month ?
Mr. Lansky. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in New Orleans ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer.
Mr. Palakoff. You may answer.
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. "When were you last in New Orleans ?
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it would in-
criminate me.
The Chairman. I don't think we are getting anywhere with this.
Mr. Halley. Let's try a few more.
The Chairman. As I understand it, Mr. Lansky has informed his
counsel about the questions he refused to answer on yesterday, and
that is your position today, is that right ?
Mr. PoLAKOFF. Yes, Senator.
Mr. Lansky. Yes.
Mr. Halley. I would simply like to know if you have ever been
in the Beverly Club in New Orleans.
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it would
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. I won't ask any other questions.
The Chairman. Did you apply for any permit to operate any
place at Saratoga Springs, or join in the application for one?
(Witness conferring with counsel.)
Mr. Lansky. I decline to answer on the ground that it would tend
to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Well, any further questions, Mr. Kostelanetz?
Mr. Kostelanetz. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Lansky, you will remain under subpena for
this committee without additional subpena being served on you. I
believe this is the copy you gave us yesterday.
Mr. Polakoff. Senator, that is perfectly all right, any time and
any place. Just give us 1 day's notice.
The Chairman. Just let me make it clear that we understand we
can notify either Mr. Lansky or his attorney and he will appear.
Mr. Polakoff. That is correct, sir.
The Chairman. The subcommittee here. Senator Tobey and the
chairman, will recommend to the whole committee that contempt
proceedings be instituted against Mr. Lansky.
Mr, Polakoff. May I suggest. Senator, unless it is urgent on your
part, that you withhold that until the next hearing. I would like
to look up the law on the question of the books. I don't mean to be
discourteous.
The Chairman. We would like to give you that opportunity, but,
of course, if we ran our inquiry on that kind of basis we would never
be finished and we feel we have given Mr. Lansky a very full oppor-
tunity, and lie has availed himself of it in consulting with his counsel
and having his counsel here. So, as matters now stand, we will have
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 163
to take the record as it is, and on the basis of this record we have no
alternative but to make this recommendation.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. That is perfectly all right, sir.
Senator Tobey, I would like to tell you that I was chief of the
criminal division of the United States attorney's office away back
in 1921 and 1922, and I think if you reflect — I believe you are a
lawyer — you will realize that while you have a right to take whoever
you wish as a client, I, under the circumstances, have the right to
defend anyone that I want.
Senator Tobey. I quite agree 100 percent on that without casting
any reflections.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. It so happens that others, despite their reputation,
in the United States Government, did seek also to aid Luciano.
Sometimes I accept the decision of the court that he was guilty. When
I undertook his defense I believed he was innocent of the crime
charged. He may have been a scoundrel in a thousand other ways,
but being charged with a crime which after my investigation caused
me to believe he was entitled to a defense, I feel that I or any other
lawyer
Senator Tobey. I think you are honest in your opinion but I told
you wliat I would do. I would tell that scum of the earth to "Get
the hell out of here and find a lawyer if you want to. I won't touch
the case and want no part of you." That is what I would tell him.
You can do what you want to.
Mr. PoLAKOFF. That is perfectly all right and that is your privilege.
Circumstances, conditions, and time of practice all have some weight
in a person's determining what to do. I want to tell you that I am
not sorry, sir, that I defended him. I want to tell you that I still
believe he was innocent of the crime charged, although I accept the
rulings of the court.
Senator Tobey. There are some men who by their conduct and their
life become a stench in the nostrils of decent American citizens, and
in my judgment, "Lucky" Luciano stands at the head of the list.
]\Ir. PoLAKOFF. That is probably true, but you forget 1935 and other
facts before it in 1950. As we look back in retrospect that was 15
years ago.
Senator Tobey. Yes.
The Chairman. For the record, do you practice alone or are you
in a partnership?
Mr. PoLAKOFF. I am in partnership with my brother, Milton A.
Polakoff.
The Chairman. How long have you been practicing law ?
Mr. Polakoff. Thirty years.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Polakoff. I was assistant United States attorney for the south-
ern district of New York from 1921 to 1925, At the time I quit I was
chief of the criminal division. I think I know a little bit about Federal
law.
The Chairman. "We are not raising any question about your tech-
nical ability.
Mr. Polakoff. As long as you asked about me, I wanted to give
you a thorough history and if you want to know more about me, you
just talk to any judge in the southern district of New York.
The Chairman. Very well.
164 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
STATEMENTS OF SIDNEY SIMANDL, NEWARK, N. J., AND JACK L.
COHN, NEWARK, N. J.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, I am Senator Kefauver, and this is
Senator Tobey. What is your name, sir?
Mr. SiMANDL. Sidney Simandl, 24 Brandford Place, Newark.
Mr. CoHN. Jack L. Cohn, 835 Broad Street, Newark.
The Chairman. If you are ^oing to testify, we have a rule of the
committee to put all of our witnesses under oath.
Mr. CoHN. We have no objection to taking the oath. Senator, but
we are rather here to explain the nonappearanace of Mr. Rutkin, who
was subpenaed to appear this morning before the committee.
The Chairman, (to ahead, Mr. Halley, and let's see what the situa-
tion is. Will you please state the reason.
Mr. Cohn. Why yes. Maybe we had better go back to some cor-
respondence which we exchanged with the committee some time ago.
Shortly after this subpena was served on Mr. Rutkin, Mr. Simandl
wrote a letter to the Senator explaining that Mr. Rutkin had been
subpenaed on September 21, that Mr. Rutkin was at that time engaged
in the prej^aration of his defense on an indictment which was pending
in the Federal District Court for the District of New Jersey. Actu-
ally the trial was scheduled to start on October 10, and it has started.
We find ourselves in a very delicate situation which I think the com-
mittee can appreciate. We realize that any publicity in connection
with Mr. Rutkin's appearance before the committee might very mate-
rially damage his position before the jury in that trial which is
presently going on. There are already some newspaper reports. I
intend to show the committee the local papers, and you will find that
the stories were appearing in the column right next to the stories
reporting the trial, which obviously will have some effect on the jury.
We hope it won't be too bad insofar as it has gone at the present time.
Mr. Halley. When did the trial start?
Mr. CoHN. It started Tuesday, October 10.
Mr. Halley. When was Mr. Rutkin notified of the hearing here for
Wednesday, October 11?
Mr. Cohn. I think he received a wire on the evening of the 9th.
Mr. Halley. When was he served a subpena ?
Mr. Cohn. On September 21.
Mr. Simandl. He wasn't served personally.
Mr. Halley. He accepted service ?
Mr. Simandl. He accepted service.
The Chairman. What was the date of the service ?
Mr. Cohn. September 21.
Mr. Simandl. I believe he received a letter back from the chief
investigator.
Mr. Cohn. Just to give the committee the continuity of that, in
response to our letter, we received back a letter under the signature
of Mr. H. G. Robinson, representing the committee, in which he
acknowledged receipt of our letter ancl the facts therein set forth and
said that the situation which confronts your client, James Rutkin,
with respect to the trial in the United States district court in New
Jersey, which trial is scheduled to start October 10, has been noted,
and consideration with respect thereto will be given at the time the
date is established for the committee hearings.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIMERCE 165
Pursuant to this letter and the situation which arose, we conferred
with Judge Meany, who is trying the case, and advised him if we felt
his appearance was required hefore the committee we might be in a
position where we would have to ask for a mistrial, depending upon
the reports in the press resulting from such interview or appearance.
On Tuesday afternoon at about 4 : oO while I was with Judge Van
Ripper, who is trial counsel in this matter, we received a call from
Mr. Myers, who has some connection with the committee — I am not
sure just what it is — and as I understand the conversation he advised
the judge that in view of the pending situation the committee would
not require Mr. Eutkin's appearance until after the trial had been
concluded, at least not this morning, but that he would appreciate
it if counsel would come here this morning and explain to the com-
mittee the reason for the nonappearance,
Mr. SiMANDL. He is willing to go to any jurisdiction to testify,
Mr, Halley. If the hearing weren't set in Newark, or New York,
he is willing to go to any district to testify that you might desire to
call.
The Chairman. When will the trial be over?
Mr, SiMANDL. We hgure at the latest a week from Friday, at the
latest, but we don't know what the Government has yet. The first
witness is still on the stand, Mr. Reinfeld, being cross-examined.
We still have some cross-examination, the State has redirect, that
we know of. Just one witness.
]Mr. Halley. Does Mr. Rutkin intend to be cooperative in his atti-
tude toward this committee? We are trying to find out about the
operation of certain gambling partnerships in which Mr. Rutkin par-
ticipated. The evidence available to the committee is complete in
documentary form in view of the fact that it is no secret to you that
we have tax data available to this committee and the committee can
use it in a proper way and will.
What I would like to know now, if you can answer the question, is
does Mr. Rutkin intend to cooperate Avith the committee by testifying
fully about these matters, or are we going to find him coming in here
raising his constitutional privilege, which he may have a right to
do, and evading answers and otherwise obstructing the committee's
investigation ?
Mr, SiMANDL. I couldn't, and I don't think he could predict what
you want him for until last night. Look at this [indicating news-
paper] . H 're is the story of the Rutkin case, and then it says :
Links Rutkin to Lodi game. Senate prober charges Newark man operator of
gambling place.
The Chairman. Let's see the names,
Mr. S131ANDL. Who would give him a fair trial over there ?
I say I haven't discussed it with him and didn't know the subject
of the subpena until you just mentioned it. I want to say that in
preparing the trial we have w^itnesses coming in from all over the
country, coming in any time and any place, and we have to take up
the matter of this present trial. Frankly, I haven't spoken to him
about the possibilities of this testimony or what it is about. But since
you have told us and since the press has published it, it will give us an
opportunity, Mr. Halley,
Mr. Halley. On the basis of this publicity to this point, are you
planning to ask for a mistrial in your case in the Federal court in
Newark ?
166 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. SiMANDL. Up until last night Judge Van Kipper and I and Mr.
Colin felt it certainly wasn't proper, but I say to you frankly we feel
that we have whipped Reinfeld so badly we feel the admonition of
the judge will now go with the jury. You know how it is; there is
no way of knowing. I don't think at present that Ave do intend to
make such a motion.
In last niglit's paper in the first edition this story was listed right
next to the picture, up closer to the picture, Senator, so no one could
neglect reading it.
The Chairman. Gentlemen, we have no intention and no desire to
be unfair to anybody or to prevent your client from getting a fair
trial.
Mr. SiMANDL. You see this is even brought up higher, the Lodi story
in here, right next to the picture. It is also in this morning's press.
The Chairman. Suppose I submit to you a two-way proposition.
We can have Mr. Rutkin here at executive session with the under-
standin,g that no information about his testimony will be given to
the press, or if you think it would get out that he did appear and that
would be injurious to your defense, we will stipulate that we will
call him immediately after his trial is finished. We will agree with
you on that.
Mr. SiMANDL. When you say call him immediately after his trial
is com])leted, did you mean that he was to waive all his rights, if any,
he has ?
The Chairman. We are not asking him to waive his rights. We
would like to know whether he is going to be cooperative or not.
Mr. SiMANDL. That is all right, Senator, as long as his rights are
preserved, immediately after the trial is over and you notify us, I as-
sume you will give us 24 hours notice at least.
The Chairman. Oh, yes.
Mr. SiMANDL. He will appear.
The Chairman. It will probably be in Washington or perhaps back
here or in Philadelphia.
Mr. CoHN. The geography won't make any difference.
Mr. SiMANDL. But his rights will be preserved to him if he desires
to take advantage of them?
The Chairman. Is that right, Mr. Halley ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
The Chairman. Then we have stipulation that after 24 hours' no-
tice after the conclusion of the present trial — I am not talking about
an appeal or anything of that sort.
]Mr. SiMANDL. That is right.
Tlie Chairman. Whether he is found guilty or is let out, you will
produce him and he will testify.
Mr. SiMANDL. When you sa^^ testify, subject of course, Senator
to
The Chairman. That is right, but we want to say this : We are not
going to put up with any cantankerousness in his refusing to answer
questions unless he has a good and constitutional ground for not
answ ering.
Mr. SiMANDL. All right. Senator, I appreciate that.
Senator Tobey. What is he charged with in New Jersey in this
pending case ?
Mr. SiMANDL. Attempting to evade the payment of income tax by
filins: a fraudulent return.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 167
The Chairman. For what years is that?
Mr. SiMANDL. 194:3. That 1 year. It is just the one count, Senator.
The Chairman. All right, gentlemen, thank you.
Mr. SiMANDL. May we take the papers?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Dameo, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give the
committee will be'^the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Dameo. I do.
TESTIMONY OF PHILIP L. DAMEO, SHORTHILLS, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name ?
Mr. Dameo. Philip L. Dameo.
Mr. Halley. Your address?
Mr. Dameo. 116 Fairfield Drive, Shorthills, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Dameo. My occupation is transportation, motor truck.
Mr. Halley. Your company is called the People's Express Co. ?
Mr. Dameo. Since June 1, 1946.
Mr. Halley. Is that a partnership or corporation?
Mr. Dameo. It is a corporation.
Mr. Halley. Wlio are the other stockholders?
Mr. Dainieo. The other stockholders are Gerald Catena, Andrew
Aldi, and Francis D. Lacort and myself.
Mr. Halley. We have had certain discussions with you in the past,
that is representatives of the committee have, concerning the offer of
the People's Express to lease the Lewis Building.
Mr. Dameo. No, the Port Authority Building.
Mr. Halley. Did you handle those negotiations with the Port
Authority ?
Mr. Dameo. I handled nothing at all with the Port Authority. I
spoke to Milton Rosenbloom, who in turn spoke to Donald Spence,
and we had lunch one day after the casual conversation. ]SIr. Rosen-
bloom wrote a letter to the Port Authority. I have never had any
direct negotiations with the Port Authority nor anyone from my
firm.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever discuss the Port Authority offer or any of
its ramifications with Gerald Catena?
Mr. Dameo. Yes, I did; just casually.
Mr. Halley. Would you state what those discussions were?
Mr. Dameo. The discussion was merely this : That we were growing
out of our building and that I was looking for bigger quarters. I told
him that I might make an offer to the Port Authority. He said, "Go
right ahead."
Mr. Halley. Is Spence active in the operation of People's Express ?
Mr. Dameo. Not very active, no. He was spending some time
around the place so far as checking some of the drivers was concerned,
but other than that he didn't have anything to do with it. We had an
understanding when 1 first went into the business that there would be
absolutely no interference so far as the management and operation
of the company was concerned.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Catena ?
Mr. Dameo. I have known Catena for approximately 15 or 16 years.
168 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had a business relationship witli him
before ?
Mr. Dameo. No ; I have not.
Mr. Halley. What business was he in before lie entered the People's
Express ?
Mr. Da3ieo. The only thing that I know that he was in was that he
had an interest of some sort with the Marcel ]Manufactuiing Co.
Mr. Halley. Do 3'ou know what that interest was ?
Mr. Dameo. I don't. I think it was roughly 20 or 25 percent,
Mr. Halley. What was the Marcel Manufacturing Co.?
Mr. Dameo. They are still in business, and they are manufacturers
of paper napkins and wax paper and paper products.
Mr. Halley. How long was Catena connected with them?
Mr. Dameo. That I don't know.
Mr, Halley. Was he connected with them when you made your
association ?
Mr. Dameo. No. He had just left them for some reason or other.
I don't know what the reason was,
]Mr. Halley. Did he invest money in your business ?
Mr. Dameo, Yes ; he did,
Mr. Halley. How^ much ?
Mr. Dameo. Approximately $20,000 or $22,000.
Mr. Halley, He appeared to be a man of substantial means?
Mr. Dameo. I wouldn't say substantial, because when we were dis-
cussing it we thought we were going to need approximately $30,000
to buy it originally and he asked me to try to get better terms if I
could, which I was able to do. The balance of the 50 percent I paid
over a period of about 15 months.
Mr. Halley. How much did you contribute to the capital?
Mr. Dameo. Fifty percent of the investment, which was approxi-
mately twenty or twenty-two thousand dollars.
Mr. Halley, The total investment was $22,000?
Mr. Dameo. No ; the total investment for the business was approxi-
mately $40,000 or $45,000, between forty and forty-five thousand
dollars.
Mr. Halley. You invested half and he invested half?
Mr. Dameo. Yes, sir,
Mr, Halley, Did he give you a check for his $22,000 or did he give
you cash?
Mr, Dameo, I believe there were three or four checks that were
given, all in checks,
]Mr. Halley. All in checks.
INIr. Dameo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember the bank they were drawn on ?
]Mr. Dameo. No; I don't; and I don't have those records with me.
I believe it was — I think it was the Hillside Bank.
Mr. Halley. Hillside, N. J.?
Mr. Dameo. Yes ; Hillside, N. J.
Mr. Halley. With the exception of his connection with the Marcel
Corp.
Mr. Dameo. Yes; Marcel Manufacturing, I believe is the name of
the comjiany.
JNIr. Halley. What other businesses did you know Catena to have
been in in the 14 or 15 years you have known him ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJVUMERCE 169
Mr. Dameo. I didn't know him to be in any other bnsiness. I just
knew him casually up until about 5 or 6 years ago. I became rather
friendly with him through playing golf. That is where I became
a lot more friendly with him.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him in a gambling establishment?
Mr. Dameo. You mean originally?
Mr. Halley. Ever ; at any time. Did you ever see him in one ?
Mr. Dameo. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Halley. Where and when ?
Mr. Dameo. When, I would say it was approximately 4 years ago ;
314 or 4 years ago. The place I don't remember exactly, but I know
it was off of Route 6.
Mr. Halley. New Jersey ^
Mr. Dameo. In New Jersej
Mr. Halley. Bergen County ?
Mr. Dameo. I imagine it was Bergen County. I will tell you how
I happened to get there.
Mr. Halley. Go ahead.
Mr. Dameo. I was entertaining some friends in New York, and one
of these fellows happened to be from California, and another fellow
from Jersey who is a friend of mine. After a few drinks and a little
kibitzing around someone suggested finding a place to gamble. I
had never known any place, but this fellow from California, who had
a lot of friends in New York, knew about it, so we got in his car and
drove out there and went into the place. We all had a few drinks,
quite a few drinks, as a matter of fact, and I did see Catena at that
time.
Mr. Halley. Was it a place with which Catena had any connection ?
INIr. Dameo. That I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Who is the man from California? WTiat was his
name ?
Mr. Dameo. Melvin Rogers.
Mr. Halley. In what business is he?
Mr. Dameo. He was a consulting engineer. He had been out here
before for the Lionel Corp. He was out here again on some other
consulting engineering business.
Mr. Halley. Do j^ou know where Catena is now ?
Mr. Dameo. No. I wish I did, because I would like to catch him
as well.
Mr. Halley. What is your reason?
Mr. Dameo. I have reason — this publicity has hurt my business and
my family and everyone else.
Mr. Halley. I should think it would, and I have been wondering
whether when you went into business with him you knew his repu-
tation.
JSIr. Dameo. I did not know his reputation at all.
Mr. Halley. You did not ?
Mr. Dameo. No, I did not. As a matter of fact, I told Jack Elich
that I was surprised to learn of a lot of these things.
Mr. Halley. You must have known him fairly well to have ap-
proved him for a large investment.
Mr. Dameo. I knew in our discussions on the golf course that he
sold out his interest so far as Marcel manufacturing was concerned,
68958— 51— pt. 7 12
170 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
and this proposition came along to purchase the People's Express
Co. — I was in the transportation business, and still am, where I oper-
ate as an individual and where I have operated as an individual for
approximately 11 years. I needed some additional capital. Casually
I asked him whether or not he would be interested in going into a
business.
Mr. Halley. Do you belong to the same golf club ?
Mr. Dameo. I belong to one golf club that he belongs to. We were
members of another club together, and I think he is still a member
but I am not sure. I resigned from there 2 years ago.
Mr. Halley. You met him at this golf club you belong to ?
Mr. Dameo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What club is that?
Mr. Dameo. The Knoll Golf Club.
Mr. Halley. Is Catena away on any business involving your com-
pany?
Mr. Dameo. Not involving my company ; no.
Mr. Halley. When did you last liear from him ?
Mr. Dameo. I would say it was approximately 3 weeks ago.
Mr. Halley. What were the circumstances ?
Mr. Dameo. The circumstances were merely this : That I told him
that INIr. Elich and Mr. Murray were looking for him.
Mr. Halley. Was he in the office at the time ^
Mr. Dameo. No ; he wasn't in the office.
Mr. Halley. Did you see him or was this a telephone conversation.
Mr. Dameo. No ; I saw him.
Mr. Halley. Where did you see him ?
Mr. Dameo. I saw him at my home. It was late one Saturday eve-
ning, I would say about 9 : 30 one Saturday evening.
Mr. Halley. Had you telephoned him to come to your home or
had he communicated with you ?
Mr. Dameo. He called me and I asked him where he was. He said
he was in town and I said, "Jerry, I would like to see j^ou. This thing
is causing me no end of embarrassment and I think something should
be done about it."' He said, "All right, I will take care of it.''
Mr. Halley. Is this the conversation that took place at your home ?
Mr. Dameo. Yes ; it did.
Mr. Halley. Did you tell him that Mr. Elich was trying to serve
a subpena on him ?
Mr. Dameo. Yes; I did, and I told him I had been served with a
subpena.
Mr. Halley. Did you have the subpena at that time ?
Mr. Dameo. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Halley. All he said was "I will take care of if?
Mr. Dameo. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you tell him where he could reach Mr. Elich?
Mr. Dameo. Yes; I gave him two phone numbers.
Mr. Halley. Since then have you heard from him directly or in-
directly ?
Mr. Dameo. No ; I have not.
IVIr. Halley. Thank you. No other questions.
The Chairman. Senator Tobey ?
Senator Tobey. No questions.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 171
The CiiAiRMAx. Mr. Dameo, when did you say this corporation was
formed, the People's Express Co. ?
Mr. Dameo. We bought this old corporation. We bought it in
June of 1946. The corporation has been in existence for over 50 years.
The Chairman. What is the capital stock of the corporation, that
is, how much is the corporation worth ?
Mr. Dameo. I truthfully couldn't answer that.
The Chairman. What is your best estimate about whether it is a
anillion and a half
Mr. Dameo. No; at the moment I would say it is worth approxi-
mately $300,000.
The Chairman. How much of that does Mr. Catena own?
Mr. Dameo. Fifty percent of that.
The Chairman. You own the other 50 percent.
Mr. Dameo. No. I had 50 percent, and I sold 5 percent to my ac«
•count ant and gave 10 percent to this nephew of mine through mar-
riage, who runs my Avenel office.
The Chairman. Who is your accountant ?
Mr. Dameo. Andrew V. Aldi.
The Chairman. What does Mr. Catena do there?
Mr. Dameo. Mr. Catena's duties were very limited.
The Chairman. Is he a full-time operator ?
Mr. Dameo. No. He comes and goes.
Senator Tobey. He goes, apparently.
Mr. Dameo. Apparently.
The Chairman. What is his salary per year?
"Mr. Dameo. $100 a week.
'I'he Chairman. Plus dividends.
B/Ir. Dameo. No; we have declared no dividends at all.
The Chairman. Surely, Mr. Dameo, since 1940 you must have
learned about Mr. Catena's other businesses, haven't you?
Mr. Dameo. I know that he went into another business at the end
of 1918, 1 beheve it was or the beginning of 1949, the Kool-Vent Metal
Awning.
The Chairman. The what ?
BJr. Dameo. The Kool-Vent Metal Awning Co.
iriie Chairman. Then you must have known something about his
gambling interests, didn't you?
Mr. Dameo. No ; I did not.
The Chairman. You have never discussed it with him ?
Mr. Dameo. No ; I didn't.
The Chairman. He hasn't called you on the telephone and you
haven't been in touch with him in any 'way ?
Mr. Dameo. No ; I haven't.
Senator Tobey. Did he draw his salary by check or was it paid in
cash in the past'^
^ Mr. Dameo. There is a check made out to him and it is mailed to
his home.
Senator Tobey. Have the checks in the last 2 or 3 weeks come bacl}
deposited ?
Mr. Dameo. That I couldn't truthfully answer. I don't know what
has happened, but I imagine they have.
172 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIMIMERCE
The Chairman. Anything else?
All right, Mr. Danieo.
Mr. Dameo. I would like to make one request, if I may.
The Chaieman. What is that?
INIr. Dameo. If there is any possibility of withholding my name
from the newspapers I would appreciate it.
The Chairman. Mr. Dameo, I think there is no possibility of that
because after all, you are his partner and it is our duty to try to be
as diligent as we can to try to locate INIr. Catena. I frankly think
that a fellow who goes into a corporation with a man of this sort just
has to take it on the chin. I don't know what else to do.
Mr. Dameo. I have been taking it on the chin, and I don't feel as
though I should keep taking it on the chin. This thing has hurt me no
end, and it is going to hurt me a lot more.
The Chairman. It is pretty difficult to do business with these fel-
lows and not get hurt, Mr. Dameo. That is one of the evils of or-
ganized crime and being in partnership or in a corporation with a fel-
low who is alleged to be in the rackets. I can say that so far as you
personally are concerned, we have no derogatory statement to make
about you other than the fact that you are a partner in this corpora-
tion with him.
Senator Tobey. Mr. Dameo, if you do happen to run across Mr.
Catena in the street or he gets in touch with you. kindly transmit to-
liim the fact that this committee is going to go on and that he expects
to live and sooner or later he is going to come before this committee
and they are going to keep the wires hot. We are going to have him
before us so he might as well come soon as late.
Mr. Dameo. I would like to see him come before the committee and
I would certainly like to get in touch with him myself because I must
make some sort of definite move. I started from scratch and worked
like the devil to get where I am and I certainly am not going to
jeopardize it now. As well as I know, I am sure that he wouldn't
want to do anything to hurt me or to hurt anyone else. I laiow him
that way, as a perfect gentleman. That is the only way I ever want
to know him.
The Chairman. It is very hard on his wife and children for him ta
be away.
Mr. Dameo. It is.
The Chairman. She seems to be a conscientious wife. AVe were
favorably impressed by her.
All right, Mr. Dameo, thank you.
Mr. Dameo. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mrs. Longano, will you hold up your hand. Will
you swear the testimony you will give this committee will be the truth^
the whole truth, and nothhig but the truth, so help you God ?
INIrs. LoNGANO. That is right.
The Chairman. Mrs. Longano, this is your attorney appearing^
with you ?
Mrs. Longano. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you tell us your name and address, sir?
Mr. Rosenberg. Tlieodore Rosenberg. 5 Colt Street. Paterson, N. J.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Halley.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 173
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LONGANO, INGLEWOOD, N. J., ACCOM-
PANIED BY THEODORE ROSENBERG, ATTORNEY, PATERSON,
N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Jean Longano.
Mr. Halley. You are married to Mr. Arthur Longano ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What is your address?
Mr. LoNGANO. 285 Windsor Road, Englewood, N. J.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any business?
Mrs. Longano. I am a housewife.
JNIr. Halley. Does Mr. Longano live there with you?
Mrs. Longano. He does ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any children ?
Mrs. Longano. I am bringing up a niece and a nephew for 9 years.
Mr. Halley. They live with you ?
Mrs. Longano. Yes.
Mr. Halley. They are living with you now ?
Mrs. Longano. That is right .
Mr. Halley. How long have you been married ?
Mrs. Longano. A little over 15 years.
Mr. Halley. Do you know where Mr. Longano is ?
Mrs. Longano. Xo, I don't.
Mr. Halley. When did you last see him ?
Mrs. Longano. This is October. It was around the first of Septem-
ber, I believe. It has been over a month.
Mr. Halley. When did you last hear from him directly or in-
directly ?
]\Irs. Longano. When he left the house.
Mr. Halley. What did he state with regard to his future where-
abouts at the time he left the house ?
Mrs. Longano. We had had a little upsetment because I too have
been — well, not well, and his emotional stability is at a very low ebb.
Our nerves got sort of taut and he thought he was tearing me dowm
and we didn't want to shoot one another, so he is fighting it out by
himself and has been since January.
Mr. Halley. Is he ill at the moment ?
Mrs. Longano. Very much.
Mr. Halley. Is he in a hospital ?
Mrs. Longano. No ; not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. Or in a sanitarium ?
Mrs. Longano. Xot that I know of. He might — —
Mr. Halley. You go ahead.
Mrs. Longano. No ; I have finished.
Mr. Halley. I understood from Mr. Elich that you knew where
your husband was but felt that you couldn't reveal his whereabouts
because it would be injurious to his health.
ISIrs. Longano. I didn't only tell Mr. Elich that. I told all my
friends the same thing, that I knew where he was when I didn't know.
Mr. Halley. In fact, you do not know where he is ?
Mrs. Longano. I do not know.
Mr. Halley. Why would you say a thing like that to Mr. Elich ?
Mrs. Longano. After all, if I say it to my friends
174 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Mr. Elicli had told you he was an investigator for this
committee.
Mrs. LoNGANO. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Halley. He showed you his credentials.
Mrs. LoNGANO. No ; he didn't.
Mr. Halley. He had shown you a subpena that he had?
Mrs. LoNGANO. He hadn't at that time ; no.
]\Ir. Halley. Pie told you he had a subpena, though ?
Mrs. LoxGANO. No; he didn't. He said that he wanted to talk to
me, to my husband, I believe. He intimated it was in regard to —
he wanted to tell me something about the Florida affair.
Mr. Halley. AYhat did you say at that time about your husband's
whereabouts to Mr. Elicli ?
Mrs. LoNGANo. I told him at that time that I wouldn't tell anyone.
]Mr. Halley. You said he was under the care of a doctor, I believe.
Mrs. LoxGANO. Oh, no ; I didn't. He ha*
doctor, yes, and I even sent him to the doctor.
Mr. Halley. You referred Mr. Elich to the doctor so he could talk
to him.
Mrs. LoNGAXO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You now say that you were not telling the truth to
Mr. Elich when you said you knew where your husband was.
Mrs. LoxGANo. I was not telling the truth to Mr. Elich or my
friends.
Mr. Halley. I might understand the motive for telling your friends,
but Mr. Elich was there on official Government business and you
knew that, did you not ?
Mrs. LoNGANo. No; at the time I told liim I did not know.
Mr. Halley. He wasn't on a social call, was he?
Mrs. LoxGAXo. Oh, definitely not.
Mr. Halley. He explained to 3'ou that it was necessary for him to
get in toucli vsith your liusband in connection with this Government
business, is that right?
Mrs. LoNGAXO. Frankly I don't remember too much about it because
I had just gotten up. I was speaking to him from the window. I
know he said he was from this committee, I believe he said that. It
was only a few minutes' conversation.
]Mr. Halley. Do you have a bank account. Mrs. Longano?
Mrs. LoxGAXo. No ; I don't.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a place in your house where you keep
sums of cash ?
Mrs. LoxGAXO. I never have had ; no.
Mr. Halley. On what have you been living since September 1 ?
Mrs. LoxGAXo. On money that I had saved.
Mr. Halley. How much money had you saved, how much money
did you have on September 1 ?
IMrs. LoxGAxo. Well, I don't know how much it was. I think it was
a little over — how much? I can't tell you that because I don't re-
member. It wasn't much, maybe $500 or something around that
vicinity,
]Mr. Halley, Did you have it in your pocketbook?
Mrs, LoxGAXo. I had it in my box.
Mr. Halley, Your box ?
Mrs. Longano. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 175
Mr. Hallet. At home ?
Mre. LoNGANO. No ; in a bank.
Mr. Haixey. You have a safety deposit box ?
Mrs. LoNGAxo. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What bank ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Commonweakh Trust.
Mr. Halley. Where is that?
Mrs. LoNGANO. AVoodcliff.
Mr. Halley. In Woodcliff, N. J.
Mi-s. LoNGANo. Yes.
Mr. Hai-Xey, Do you have access to it alone or does your husband
have access to that?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Just myself.
Mr. Halley. But you have no bank account ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any cash in that box now ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. No. Maybe about $20 or $25.
Mr. Halley. As of about September 1 when your husband left,
you had about $500, you say?
Mrs. LoxGANO. Well, it must have been more than that because I
had some in my bag. I just can't remember until I stop to concentrate,
which I couldn't do here, I am sure. I couldn't tell you the exact
amounr -
Mr. Halley. Does your husband have a bank account ?
Mrs. LoNGANo. No ; not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. Does he have a safety deposit box that you know of ?
Mrs. LoxGANO. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any employment in the last 5 years ?
Mrs. LoNGANo. No.
Mr. Halley. He has supported you ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Eight.
Mr, Halley. Does he give you money in cash or in checks?
Mrs. LoNGANO. In cash.
Mr, Halley. Do you have any servants at home ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. I have a maid, 1 day a week.
Mr. Halley, You have a maid 1 day a week. Do you own an auto-
mobile ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. No. My husband does.
Mr. Halley, He owns an automobile ?
Mrs. LoNGAxo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did he take the automobile with him ?
Mrs. Lox^GANO, No.
Mr. Halley. Are you using it ?
Mrs. LoxGANO. That is right.
Mr, Halley, What kind of an automobile is it?
Mrs. LoxGAxo. A Cadillac.
Mr. Halley. What year?
Mrs. LoNGAXO, 1948,
Mr. Halley. Do you own the house you live in ?
Mrs. LoxGAx^o. We are paying for it.
Mr. Halley. You are paying for it ?
Mrs. LoxGANo. Yes.
Mr. Halley, In whose name is it ?
Mrs, LoxGANo, Both our names.
176 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, Halley. What are the monthly payments on the house?
Mrs. LoNGANo. $112.32.
Mr. Halley, Are the children in school ?
Mrs. Longano. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Are they in public or private school ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Public.
Mr. Halley. It is your position that you have been living on what
little money you have accumulated all this time ?
Mrs. Longano. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Your husband has made no effort to get any funds
to you since you last saw him ?
Mrs. Longano. No.
Mr. Halley. He just left the house without any word or any ar-
rangements for you ?
Mrs. Longano. He knew I had a few dollars saved.
Mr. Halley. Did you tell him how much you had saved?
Mrs. Longano. No.
Mr. Halley. Then he didn't know whether you had $10 saved or
$100 or $500 or a thousand ; is that right?
Mrs. Longano. I don't know what he thought, but I am sure he
knew I was all right.
Mr. Halley. How would he know you were all right ?
Mrs. Longano. Because I am the saver.
INIr. Halley. Has anybody given you any money since then?
Mrs. Longano. No.
Mr. Halley. Or loaned you any money ?
Mrs. Longano. No. Well, little loans, but I paid it right back, if
I was short or something.
Mr. Halley. How much money have you got left?
Mrs. Longano. I am at the end of my rope.
Mr. Halley. What does that mean ?
Mrs. Longano. It means I will just have now to find out who my
friends are.
Mr. Halley. Does that mean that you have not as much as $50 left?
Mrs. Longano. Oh, no. I have more than that.
Mr. Halley. Does it mean that you have less than $100 left ?
Mrs. Longano. I don't know because my checking account is all
balled up.
Mr. Halley. You said a little while ago that j^ou have no bank
account.
Mrs. Longano. We haven't had a savings account. Is that what
you meant ?
Mr. Halley. No.
Mrs. Longano. I misconstrued your question. I am sorry. I have
a checking account and have it all balled up.
Mr. Halley. In what bank?
Mrs. Longano. The same as the box.
Mr. Halley. How long have you had that checking account ?
Mrs. Longano. Let's see. About 5 or 6 years, I guess. I can't tell
you exactly.
Mr. Halley. How much money was in the checking account when
your husband left ?
Mrs. Longano. I can't tell you that either. I don't Imow exactly.
Mr. Halley. You got a statement from the bank at the end of
August. j
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 177
Mrs. LoNGANO. That is why I can't tell you, because my checking
account is all balled up.
Mr. Halley. The bank isn't balled up; is it? You have the
statement.
Mrs. LoNGANO. I know, but I am fearful that checks haven't come
in. and therefore it is over.
Mr. Halley. Eoughly does your checking account have over a
thousand dollars ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Oh, no. I think it is something like $246, they told
me.
Mr. Halley. Two hundred and forty-six dollars.
Mrs. LoNGANO. Yes. I think it is something like that.
Mr. Halley. You had that plus the cash.
Mrs. LoNGANO. That is what the bank told me, but according to my
figuring it was much, much less.
Mr. Halley. Have you made any effort to find out where your hus-
band is ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. You have made no effort to communicate with him?
Mrs. LoNGANO. No, I haven't. I have been telling my friends I
know, so naturally I wouldn't ask him where he was.
Mr. Halley. Didn't any of them ask you where he was ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. They have asked me that since January.
Mr. Halley. Your husband was home up until September 1.
Mrs. LoNGANO. My husband has been away from home more than
he has been at home since January.
Mr. Halley. On previous occasions did you not know where he
was?
Mrs. LoNGAXO. Yes. I have been unaware of his whereabouts on
jDrevious occasions.
Mr. Halley. Is that something that has gone on for years? Is that
his habit or is that just a recent thing?
Mrs. LoxGANo. i wouldn't say it is a habit, no. It is not a habit
exactly.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Gerald Catena ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. I do not.
Mr. Hali^y. Do you know Mrs. Catena ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. I met her yesterday out in the waiting room.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Doto ?
Mrs. Langaxo. I have met him.
Mr. Halley. Do you know INIrs. Doto ?
Mrs. LoxGAXo. I can't hear you.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mrs. Doto ?
Mrs. LoxGAxo. I have also met her.
Mr. Halley. Do you know James Lynch ?
Mrs. Loxgaxo. I have met him.
Mr. Halley. And ^Mrs. Lynch?
Mrs. Loxgaxo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mrs. Zwillman ?
Mrs. Loxgaxo. Who?
Mr. Halley. Zwillman, Abner Zwillman.
Mrs. Loxgaxo. No.
Mr. Halley. You do not know him ?
178 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mrs. LoNGANO. You will liaA^e to bear with nie. I am a little difficult
ill my hearing and I am taking eight pain killers a day and so my
head isn't quite — so bear with me and speak a little louder if you can,
please.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Costello?
Mrs. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. How many times have you seen Joe Doto ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Oh, I can't tell you that. I ate in the same restau-
rant as he.
Air, Halley. Was he ever in your home ?
Mrs. LoNGANO, Never.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in his ?
Mrs. LoNGANo. No. We are not social acquaintances.
Mr. Halley. Do you know what business your husband was in ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Yes.
Mr, Halley, What business ?
Mrs. LoNGAxo. He was manager for Charlie's Grille for the past —
I believe almost — 15 years in Little Ferry, N. J,
Mr. Halley. What is Charlie's Grille?
Mrs. LoNGANo. Since a year and a half ago it was sold to Frank
Daly of the Meadowbrook.
Mr. Halley. Is your husband still manager ?
Mrs. LoxGANO. No.
Mr. Halley, When did he give up that work ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. When it was sold.
Mr. Halley. Did he have any other business?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Well, he always has been a commission agent, I
know that,
Mr, Halley, What kind of commission agent ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Well, I know he sold jewelry and cars,
Mr, Halley. Did he ever have an interest in any gambling enter-
prise ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. I never heard of such a thing ; no.
Mr, Halley, Were you ever in a gambling house ?
Mrs, LoNGANO, Never.
Mr. Halley. You have never been in an establishment in which
there was gambling ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. Never,
Mr, Halley, At no time ?
Mrs, LoNGANO, Never,
Mr, Halley, Mrs. Longano, I must say it is very hard to believe
that you don't know your husband's whereabouts, particularly when
you told Mr, Elich originally that you did, but you simply wouldn't
say it. Have you any further explanation?
Mrs. LoNGANO. None whatsoever.
Mr, Halley, No other questions, Mr, Chairman,
The Chairman. As I understand it, you told him th.at a fubpena
was out for him before he left ?
Mrs. LoxGANO. I told who?
The Chairmax. Your husband.
Mrs LoNGAxo. I Mas unaware of any such thing.
The Chairman. When was the last time you saw him?
Mi-s. LoNGANO. It was over 4 weeks ajjo.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 179
The Chairman. When did INIr. Elich get in touch with you ?
Mrs. LoNGANO. I can't tell you that date.
The Chairman. Was it after your husband had left?
Mrs. LoNGANo. Oh, definitely.
The Chairman. Any questions, Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobet. No questions.
The Chairivian. All right, Mrs. Longano, thank you.
Mrs. Longano. You are quite welcome.
The Chairman. If you are in touch with your husband I think
you might tell him that he is not helping himself by staying away.
Mrs. Longano. Well, I am sure he hasn't been evading you since
January, and he has been away since January.
Tlie Chairman. Do you also represent Mr. Longano?
Mr. Rosenberg. No, I do not.
The Chairman. You have never represented him?
Mr. Rosenberg. Once, in the purchase of the home.
The Chairman. It is just likely you might be in touch with him,
and we would be very happy if you would tell him we are looking for
him and want him to testify.
Mrs. Lynch, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this
committee Avill be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
JVIrs. Lynch. I do.
The Chairman, Have a seat, INIrs. Lynch, and let the record show
that Mr. Theodore Rosenberg, attorney of Paterson, N. J., also rep-
resents Mrs. Lynch.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. VIRGINIA LYNCH, PALISADES PARK, N. J.,
ACCOMPANIED BY THEODORE ROSENBERG, ATTORNEY, PATER-
SON, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your address?
Mrs. Lynch. 65-B Henry Avenue, Palisades Park, N. J.
Mv. Halley. How long have you lived there?
Mrs. Lynch. Say about 8 years.
Mr. Halley. You are married to James Lynch ?
;Mrs. Lynch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. How long have you been married ?
JNIrs. Lynch. Ten years.
Mr. Halley. Do jou have any children.
Mr. Lynch. One.
Mr. Halley. How old ?
Mrs. Lynch. Seventeen months.
Mr. Halley. When did you last see Mr. Lynch ?
Mrs. Lynch. A week ago Wednesday, last Wednesday.
Mr. Halley. Did you have certain conversations with committee
investigators who were seeking to serve a subpena on Mr. Lynch ?
Mrs. Lynch. No, sir ; not at that time, no.
Mr. Halley. Have you had since ?
Mrs. Lynch. The following day I did ; yes.
Mr. Halley. You had none prior to Mr. Lynch's departure?
Mrs. Lynch. No, sir ; not whatsoever.
Mr. Halley. Where is he, Mrs. Lynch?
Mrs. Lynch. I really don't know.
180 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. What did he say about liis departure ? What did he
Fay he was goino; to do ?
Mrs. Lynch. When we heard from liim the hist time he said he
woukl be gone from 2 to 3 weeks.
Mr. Halley. Did he say where he was going?
Mrs. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did he leave you any money ?
Mrs. Lynch. I have money for my household expenses.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a bank account ?
Mrs. Lynch. I have a savings account.
Mr. Halley. In what bank ?
Mrs. Lynch. In the National Bank of Palisades Park.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a checking account ?
Mrs, Lynch. That is a checking account. I am sorry.
Mr. Halley. It is a checking account.
Mrs. Lynch. Yes; a personal checking account.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a savings account, too?
Mrs. Lynch. I don't; no.
Mr. Halley. Is that the only account you have ?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a safety deposit box ?
Mrs. Lynch. No, sir; I never had one.
Mr. Halley. Does 5^our husband have a bank account?
Mrs. Lynch. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Halley. You just don't know ?
Mrs. Lynch. I really don't know that, sir.
Mr. Halley. Does he give you money from time to time for house-
hold expenses?
Mrs. Lynch. Weekly.
Mr. Halley. Does he give it to you in cash or by check?
Mrs. Lynch. In cash.
Mr. Halley. How much a week does he give you ?
Mrs. Lynch. Well, it varies, about $100 a week.
Mr. Halley. You pay all the household expenses ?
Mrs. Lynch. He takes care of the expenses.
Mr. Halley. You just have money for cash outlay around the
house ?
Mrs. Lynch. The baby, incidentals that I need.
Mr. Halley. Who gives you money for your bank account?
Mrs. Lynch. That is mine, out of what I can save out of my $100,
I can do with as I please.
Mr. Halley. When your husband left, how much money did you
have in your bank account ?
]\Irs. Lynch. Not m my bank account. I haven't made a deposit. I
might have about five or six hundred dollars in cash.
Mr. Halley. Did he know that ?
Mrs. Lynch. I don't know whether he did or not.
Mr. Halley. I am wondering what provision he made for your
welfare.
Mrs. Lynch. He always knows that I have money around the house.
Mr. Halley. Does he habitually leave without telling you where
he is going?
Mrs. Lynch. I would never think to question him as to where he
was going.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 181
Mr. Halley, Suppose something happened to the baby, suppose you
became ill.
Mrs. Lynch. I have a family. I am not alone.
Mr. Halley. There are many things for which you would need your
husband. The family isn't a substitute. If the baby becomes ill and
a very important decision has to be made about an operation or some-
thing.
]Mrs. Lynch. Usually I make them regardless.
Mr. Halley. You don't think it is ordinary for a husband to leave
without any phone call from time to time or post card at least to say
where he is I Do j^ou think that is ordinary?
Mrs. Lynch. I really don't see anything wrong with his leaving.
He has been to Florida, and he has been away from me. It is the same
thing.
Mr. Halley. When he goes to Florida you know where he is going.
Mrs. Lynch. Not all the time, no, sir.
Mr. Halley. You generally know where you might find him in
Florida. You know certain people there.
Mrs. Lynch. Not all the time, sir.
Mr. Halley. You don't even know what State he is in now ?
Mrs. Lynch. Right now ? I don't know where he is.
Mr. Halley. Did he say he was going on business ?
Mrs. Lynch. The last time I heard, yes, he was.
Mr. Halley. The last time you saw him?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did he say it had anything to do with avoiding the
subpena of this committee?
Mrs. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. What business is your husband in ?
Mrs. Lynch. That I don't know, sir. All I know is he goes to the
track as often as lie is well enough to go.
Mr. Halley, You mean he spends most of his time at the race track ?
Mrs. Lynch. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. You didn't know whether he has any regular business
at all?
Mrs. Lynch. No, sir.
]\Ir. Halley. Have you ever been to the race track with him?
Mrs. Lynch. I have been to the race track, yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Adonis, Joe Doto ?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mrs. Lynch. I don't know him that well, to know how long I have
known him, but I know him.
Mr. Halley. Did you meet him through your husband?
Mrs. Lynch. I don't know. I don't even know how I met him.
Mr. Halley. Do you Imow Mrs. Doto ?
Mrs. Lynch. To say hello to; yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Mrs. Longano?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Before you met her here ?
Mrs. Lynch. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known her?
Mrs. Lynch. Gee, I don't know, sir. I really don't.
182 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Do you know Anthony Guarini ?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Willie Moretti ?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mrs. Moretti ?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes, sir. .
Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Moretti?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know James Rutkin ?
Mrs. Lynch. No.
]\Ir. Halley. R-u-t-k-i-n ?
Mrs. Lanch. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Abner Zwillman ?
Mrs. Lynch. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you been in Florida with your husband?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes ; 1945, 1 think.
Mr. Halley. 1945?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where did you stay in Florida, what hotel?
Mrs. Lynch. I think we stayed at the Wofford.
Mr. Halley. At the Wofford Hotel?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes,
]Mr. Halley. With Mr. Allenberg?
Mrs. Launch. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. With Mr. Allenberg? Abe Allenberg?
Mrs. Launch. Oh, I don't know. I have stayed at many hotels and
never knew the manager.
Mr. Halley. Who chose the Wofford Hotel?
Mrs. Lynch. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. Who chose the Wofford Hotel as the place to stay?
]Mrs. Lynch. I don't know, sir.
JNIr. Halley. Your husband made the arrangements ?
JNIrs. Lynch. Oh, yes ; I suppose he did.
Mr. Halley. Have you been to Florida since 1945, Mrs. Lynch?
Mrs. Lynch. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Costello ?
Mrs. Lynch. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Erickson ?
Mrs. Lynch. No.
]\Ir. Halley. Do you know a man named Bert Griggs?
Mrs. Launch. No.
Mr. Halley. Or Frank Strader ?
Mrs. Lynch. No.
Mr. Halley. No other questions.
The Chairman. Any questions, Mr. Kostelanetz or Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobey. You said you wouldn't think of asking your hus-
band where he was going. Has that been your attitude all through
your married life ? He would go off alone, and you wouldn't ask him
where he was going or show any interest in where he was?
Mrs. Lynch. Yes, sir; I feel that we have lived tliat way. He is
gone. I mean I trust him enough not to question him as to what he
does or where he goes.
Senator Tobey. That is all.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 183
The Chairman. How old are you, Mrs. Lynch ?
Mrs. Lynch. Thirty-two.
The Chairman. How old is he ?
Mrs. Lynch. Forty-six, I think.
The Chairman, You just got out of school when you were married
or had you worked before ?
Mrs. Lynch. No ; I really had just got out of school. I was quite
young when I was married.
The Chairman. You are a native of what place?
Mrs. Lynch. New York City.
The Chairman. Did I understand you to say that you don't know
whether he knew that there was a subpena out for him, or not to ap-
pear before this committee ?
Mrs. Lynch. I know exactly as you do, nothing, honestly.
The Chairman. He just came and said he was leaving and he
wasn't going to tell you where he was going ?
Mrs. Lynch. That is exactly so.
The Chairman. Did you ask him where he was going?
Mrs. Lynch. I didn't question him.
The Chairman. You didn't ask him why he was leaving?
Mrs. Lynch. No ; I didn't, sir.
The Chairman. Mrs. Lynch, it is very strange indeed that you
would have no idea where your husband went and didn't ask him
where he was going. It is a very unusual situation, you will admit,
won't you ?
Mrs. Lync i. Not after living this way for 10 years, I shouldn't
think so.
The Chairman. Suppose you wanted to get in touch with him very
badly about an emergency, who would you call ?
Mrs. Lynch. I just don't know.
The Chairman. All right, Mrs. Lynch. Maybe we will want lo
call you back again to see if you have f^ny further information, so you
will remain under subpena.
Mrs. Lynch. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That also goes for Mrs. Longano.
Mr. Rosenberg. Very well, sir.
The Chairman. That is all for the present; you are excused.
Mr. Bruno, do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this
connnittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Bruno. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down, Mr. Bruno,
TESTIMONY OF ANDKEW PATIO BRUNO, NEW YORK, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. I understand you run a good restaurant, Mr. Bruno ;
is that right?
Mr. Bruno. I do, and I am very proud of it.
Mr. Halley. What is the address ?
Mr. Bruno. 24 West Fifty-fifth Street, New York City.
Mr. Halley. It is called JPatio Bruno?
Mv. Bruno. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name?
Mr. Bruno. Andrew Bruno.
184 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. What is your address, your residence address?
Mr. Bruno. 5 West Sixty-fifth Street.
Mr. Halley. How long have you had the Patio Bruno?
Mr. Bruno. I Avould say 15 months now. I opened last May 14, sir.
Mr. Halley. Who furnished the capital ?
Mr. Bruno. I did, sir,
Mr. Halley. Solely, all by yourself ?
INlr. Bruno. Yes, sir ; out of my savings, and I borrowed some money
from the boys Avho are working for me today, say about three or four
thousand dollars. Last spring I needed additional capital to refund
these loans I had made to these peoi:)le, so I sold 49 percent of the
stock to a very nice gentleman from New York City. I will be glad
to tell you the name, but I wish to goodness you would hold it because
he is an honorable gentleman and he is an attorney, practicing, and
his name is Mr. William Fullen.
Mr. Halley. He is an attorney in New York City ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir. He is former chairman of the board of
transportation or commission of transportation.
Mr. Halley. In New York City?
Mr. Bruno. Yes. I knew him. He liked me a lot and loaned me
the money. In other words, he bought the stock. That is the only
money I borrjowed that is big money.
Mr. Halley. How much money did you get from him ?
Mr. Bruno. $7,500.
Mr. Halley. $7,500.
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How much of your own money is invested in the
restaurant?
Mr. Bruno. Mv own money, about $9,000, and I borrowed the addi-
tional $3,000 from these fellows.
Mr. Halley. From men who work for you ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You got no credit from any other source ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir; no, sir. Credit I could get from all over town
as far as groceries and butcher things like that are concerned. I have
a very good credit rating, and I didn't need any money. You see, sir,
the restaurant was fully equipped when I took it, and the Astor Hotel,
who own it leased it to me on a percentage basis. Therefore, it did not
require any amount of capital at all. I only wanted to make a few
little alterations. I could have opened as it was with everything,
dishes, silver, chairs, kitchen, stoves, ice boxes, cooling system. You
see it had been in operation by the Union News Co.
Mr. Halley. You took it on a lease.
Mr. Bruno. On lease.
Mr. Halley. From whom?
Mr. Bruno. From Douglas Gibbs & Co.
Mr. Halley. Who owns the property ?
Mr. Bruno. William Waldorf Astor, of England, but it is adminis-
tered by the trustees, the Farmers Trust Co. They are the landlord.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Fullen is not representing any other people in his
ownership ?
Mr. Bruno. No.
Mv. Halley. Absolutely it is his own investment so far as you know ?
Mr. Bruno. So far as I know, yes; because I know perfectly well
that it is his money.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 185
Mr. Halley. So Patio Bruno has no connection with any of the
people you used to work for ?
Mr. Bruno. I am sorry to admit I have been quite a bit humiliated
about it and it has liurt my business quite a lot, because I have a very,
very wonderful following, and on that basis I opened the restaurant.
If I may ask, sir, your kind indulgence not to have my name put in
i he paper.
Mr. Halley. That will depend on the committee and on what the
testimony develops.
Mr. Bruno. I mean, sir, I have nothing to hide. I have voluntarily
made my statement. I am more than cooperative. I am open at all
times. I have one son, a wife and mother. I only pay $50 a month
rent. So I haven't been able to save money. I am not the big shot
people think I am. But I like to work, honestly.
Mr. Halley. Were'you born in Italy ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir ; in Genoa.
Mr. Halley. When did you come to this country ?
Mr. Bruno. I came here about 1923 the first time.
]Mr. Halley. And you are a citizen ?
Mr. Bruno. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. "\Vlien did you become a citizen ?
Mr. Bruno. Let's see. I imagine in 19-15 or 1946, the final papers.
]Mr. Halley. "\^^ien did you first apply for citizenship ?
Mr. Bruno. In 1940.
Mr. Halley. You started working as a waiter when you came to
this country ?
Mv. Bruno. ^Yhat, sir?
Mr. Halley. As a waiter.
Mr. Bruno. I worked as a waiter.
Mr. Halley. Did you do other work ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes ; Madison Hotel, I worked at the Waldorf, the Kose
Clinton Farm, Bathing and Tennis Club, the Embassy Club in Miami,
the Hollywood Beach Hotel in Miami. I built the Riverside for a
French concern. I worked at the Park View Hotel, and the Barbizon
Plaza 3 years. Where else ? Delmonico
JNIr. Halley. In 1944 toward the end of the year you went to work
for James Lynch, is that right ?
Mr. Bruno. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What were the circumstances ?
Mr. Bruno. I had just finished the season at the Surf Club, Miami
Beach, which is one I didn't mention, the best club down there. I came
north and I met a man by the name of Sue, that is all I know about.
]\Ir. Halley. AVhere did you meet him previously ?
ISIr. Bruno. In front of the Taft Hotel. He said, "What are you
doing?" and I said, "Nothing." He said, "All right."
Mr. Halley. Had you known him before ?
]Mr. Bruno. No, no. I was introduced by another restaurant man
by the name of Bruno Trebbe, who no longer is in operation today.
Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Sue ?
Mr. Bruno. This fellow Trebbe, Bruno Trebbe.
Mr. Halley. Was it by any chance Sue Katz ?
Mr. Bruno. It could be, but I never knew the second name.
68958— 51— pt. 7 13
186 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
This man, Dave High at the golf club they took me to Lodi for
about 3 months.
Mr. Halley. Let's get back to Sue.
Mr. Bruno. All right.
Mr. Halley. Somebody introduced you to him in front of the Taft
Hotel?
Mr. Bruno. That is right, and he came from Newark. Nothing was
said any more, see. I didn't work that summer, .1 don't think. I am
sure I didn't. Around October Dave High contacted me,
Mr. Halley. Had you known Dave High ?
Mr. Bruno. I met him along with Sue. He said would I go to
Caldwell to open this restaurant. So I took a ride to Caldwell and
who did I see but an old maitre d'hotel by the name of Charles Jour-
nal. We had known each other before because he used to be a big shot
maitre d'hotel here in town. Apparently he was retired. He owned
this house. So I said what is going on. He said we are doing the alter-
ation and are going to open a nice first-class restaurant. I understand
you are going to be the head waiter. I said I understood so. But
apparently they took a club charter without anyone knowing it and
signed my name in Trenton. After — I think it was Christmas Eve —
we were ordered to close.
Mr. Halley. In 1944?
Mr. Bruno. I think it was 1944, sir.
Mr. Halley. What were you running up to that point, a gambling
place there ?
]\Ir. Bruno. No ; I was running a dining room.
Mr. Halley. Just the dining room ?
Mr. Bruno. Oh, sure.
Mr. Halley. Why were you ordered to close ?
Mr. Bruno. Mr. High says, "Tell your waiters and cooks to go
home, and we are closing up."
Mr. Halley. Who ordered them to close ?
Mr. Bruno. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. You mean they just decided to close?
Mr. Bruno. I think so.
Mr. Halley. I see.
Mr. Bruno. For some reason or other, I don't know. You see, we
never were allowed to know anything about those things.
Mr. Halley. Then what happened ? Did you go back to work there
later ?
Mr. Bruno. Oh, no.
Mr. Halley. Never again?
Mr. Bruno. Because I was indicted at Morristown.
Mr. Halley. For what?
IMr. Bruno. For running a gambling room and a disorderly house.
Of course nothing surprised me more than that because, gee, I don't
know anything about it.
Mr. Halley, You mean you never saw any gambling there?
Mr. Bruno. Not actually because, you see, they have a door on the
side and they have a doorman, I saw him here the other day, I mean
3^esterday,
Mv. Halley, Who was that?
Mr. Bruno. George Keller, I think that is his name. Whether he
was at Caldwell or not I don't recall, but he is one of the doormen at
Lodi. We never were allowed inside.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 187
Mr. Halley. You knew what was in there ?
Mr. Bruno. I imagined what was there, sure. It was a gambling
casino, of course. There is no two ways about it, but you see we were
never even close to it.
Mr. Halley. What connection did vou have with James Lynch at
Caldwell?
:Mr. Brung. He told me to run the dining room and feed the crou-
piers and the kitchen and therefore I did. This man Sue and this man
High used to bring the food. They did the buying. I didn't even do
that. We did the serving. There were about 65 chairs. We would
serve probably 100 dinners at a time.
Mr. Halley. Did you charge for the meals ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. That was a strange circumstance, wasn't it?
Mr. Bruno. Yes ; but those were the orders that Mr. Lynch gave us.
Mr. Halley. When you were brought to court you pleaded guilty,
did you not, to the charges ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir. My attorney took me down to Morristown
and I gave myself up immediately, and when the trial came up it was
nolle prossed.
Mv. Halley. You were nolle prossed?
Mr. Bruno. Yes. The judge never even questioned me. He knew
what tlie story was.
Mr. Halley. You were never convicted ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have never been convicted of a crime at no time
in your whole life?
Mr. Bruno. Not in mj whole life. There is no reason to convict
a man like me, sir. Please believe me, I am an honest man. The
strange part, gentlemen, when these jobs came up I was the envy of
the whole hotel industry because they thought I had a tremendous
job. What the heck was I making, $100 a week, $150 sometimes.
Mr. Halley. What were you making at the Caldwell place?
Mr. Bruno. I believe the salary was $75, 1 am not sure, $T5 or $100.
I have the withholding tax slips with me.
Mr. Halley. Let me see them.
Mr. Bruno. Why, sure. These are for a period of several years.
Mr. Halley. I will sort them out. Why don't you hand them over?
Mr. Bruno. Here is the Caldwell (handing documents to Mr.
Halley].
There are three more here.
Mr. Halley. May I have them all ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You must have some more. All we have here is 3
years.
Mr. Bruno. There is more than that sir, I think. There is more than
that.
Mr. Halley. There must be some more.
Mr. Bruno. Here is another one which is a report for another year.
You might take a look at that. Here is a copy of another year, I
presume. Here is another one, sir.
Mr. Halley. Starting with the year 1944, you worked in 1944 for
the Surf Club at Miami Beach ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir.
188 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Durino; the early part of tlie year.
Mr. Bruno. You see, that starts, for instance, I left the Madison in
1943, about November, and we opened around December and worked
until May 1. That is what 1944 would take care of.
Mr. Halley. Then you went to work for the Casino at Spring; Lake,
N.J.?
Mr. Bruno. That is the bathing and tennis club, that is right. That
is the operating company.
The Chairman. What sort of country club is that?
Mr. Bruno. A bathing and tennis club, very high class, a wonder-
ful place.
The Chairman. No gambling there ?
Mr. Bruno. Oh heavens, no ! That has a private membership.
Mr. Halley. Then you went to work for James Rutkin, is that
right?
Mr. Bruno. Sir, I didn't work for him. That is the way the office
does their bookkeeping.
Mr. Halley. Who sent you this withholding receipt for James
Hutkin?
Mr. Bruno. It came by mail.
Mr. Halley. And this is for the job you had?
Mr. Bruno. At Caldwell.
Mr. Halley. In the place we have been talking about where you
served the free meals ?
Mr. Bruno. That is right, that is it.
Mr. Halley. Wliat address is 85 Columbine Avenue, Palisades,
N.J.?
Mr. Bruno, I am sorry, I haven't the slightest idea.
Mr. Halley. You don't know it ?
Mr. Bruno. No. I have never been there. That is the truth of the
matter.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Elich points out that the gambling house may have
been located at Lincoln Park.
Mr. Bruno. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is that right ?
Mr. Bruno. But it was called Caldwell,
Mr, Halley. It was called Caldwell.
Mr. Bruno. But I believe the township was Lincoln Park.
Mr. Halley. Do you know the exact acldress?
Mr. Bruno. I could take you there.
Mr. Halley. Who owned it ?
Mr. Bruno. This gentleman I talked to you about by the name of
Charles Journal, ancl he is just as much victim of circumstances as I
am, but I am sure he is available.
Mr. Halley. It is near a place known as the Tropics, is that right?
Mr. Bruno. There are two bridges, I believe. There are two bridges,
Passaic River and another river, and they call this corner, this par-
ticular corner in Lincoln Park, Two Bridges, but the ordinary word
was Caldwell.
Mr. Halley. This was a house ?
Mr. Bruno. It was a private house which they turned into a restau-
rant on one side, ancl they built an adjacent building on the other side,
a sort of rigged-up aH'air, and that is where they used to gamble.
Mr. Halley. At Caldwell, was James Lynch ever in the dining
room ?
i
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 189
Mr. Bruno. Yes ; we have had him in the dining room. I know he
was the one who took the money away every night.
Mr. Halley. He took the money at night?
Mr. Bruno. That I know.
Mr. Hallet. You saw that ?
JSIr. Bruno. Because I used to go to bed before they did. You see,
our business didn't last as long as theirs, so once our duty was accom-
plished, we washed the dishes and cleaned up — not me particularly
but my help — and we would go upstairs to sleep.
Mr. Halley. Oh, you slept right there ?
Mr. Bruno. Slept right there, sir. I used to come home about once
or twice a week.
Mr. Halley. How do you know that Lynch took care of the money ?
Mr. Bruno. From hearsay, I know that he was the last person to
leave the premises.
Mr. Halley. He was definitely one of the bosses, is that right ?
Mr. Bruno. I would say so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Hali^y. Who were some of the other bosses? Was Rutkin
there at all?
Mr. Bruno. Rutkin came to dine two or three times during that
period of 5 or 6 weeks we operated.
Mr. Halley. Wlien you got this withholding slip with Rutkin's
name on it, did you talk to anybody about why his name should be
on it as the employer ?
Mr. Bruno. Frankly, no; because I was covered as far as my tax
returns were concerned. I just didn't inquire because, as a matter of
fact, that caused me so much heartache, I was glad to get away from it.
Mr. Halley. Was Joe Adonis out there ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes; he was there once that I remember, eating, of
course.
Mr. Halley. Did he ever exercise any influence or control over it?
Mr. Bruno. He didn't show any authority around there, not to us.
Mr. Halley. Did he go into the gambling room ?
Mr. Bruno. He did.
Mr. Halley. Did Rutkin go into the gambling room?
Mr. Bruno. He did ; sure.
Mr. Halley. Did Arthur Longano show up there?
Mr. Bruno. I am sorry, I don't quite know the gentleman. If the
name doesn't sound right or something
Mr. Halley. You are not sure you know him ?
Mr. Bruno. I am not sure if I know him. If I see him, maybe I do.
I saw many boys yesterday which I had forgotten completely, and I
remembered their names when I saw them.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember Willie Moretti ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him when you see him ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Does he have any connection with the place at
Caldwell?
Mr. Bruno. I don't believe so because he was never around during
my stay there.
Mr. Halley. He was never there at all ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Moretti ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir ; I don't think so.
190 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. None whatsoever?
Mr. Bruno. I don't think so. In other words, nothing was ever
said to me about it and he was never there.
Mr. Halley. You don't remember seeing Salvatore Moretti at
Caldwell?
Mr. Bruno. I am pretty sure he didn't show up there. Of course,
it was 1944, you know, and you are liable
Mr. Halley. Now, turning your attention to Lodi, how did you
get your employment at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. I will tell you how. You know it opened during my
employment at the Deal Golf and Country Club, which is also a pri-
vate membership club and a very high-class one.
Mr. Halley. Who got you the job at the Deal ?
Mr. Bruno. The chairman of the house committee, Mr. Donald
Dickson.
Mr. Halley. Was Moretti a member of that club ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir ; no chance in the world. Ambassador Gerard,
Mr. Woodrow Wilson, and Colonel House used to be members.
Mr. Halley. In your business you rub elbows with people at both
ends of the social scale.
Mr. Bruno. You w^on't believe this. I started originally in the
diplomatic service, and I got kicked out by Mussolini in London, so I
arrived in this town with the best references a boy 22 could have. I
have been sent to Eiggleman & Riggleman, who are international
lawyers. I just want to tell you this if you don't mind. Bear with
me. They interviewed me. I was qualified for everything. They
offered me $18 a week. Hell, I couldn't support my mother. Then,
of course, I was single. I went to washing cars for $35 a week. It
was O. K. ; I loved it. Nobody knew me. I did care when they put
some colored boys next to me. I wan't used to it, so I quit and became
a waiter. That is how I started in this country. Since then I have
probably met 25,000 peo]')le, most of whom I remember their names.
Please believe me, Mr. Halley. I was acquainted with people like
Colonel Bradley, of Palm Beach, people who meant something, who
were dressed up all the time, like at the Embassy. We wouldn't think
of letting people in without evening clothes and all that, you see. But
there was a casino there. I had nothing to do with it.
Mr. Halley. That is really of great interest, but we must move on.
Mr. Bruno. All right, sir. Go ahead.
Mr. Halley. The next place you went to work was at Lodi.
Mr. Bruno. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How did you get the job at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. Lodi opened before I went there, sir. When I finished
the season at Deal this same Dave High came to me and said, Bruno,
the dining room is not running correctly. We want you to come down.
So I said, I won't be able to come down until I close the club. So I
came down and he reshuffled the cuisine, the kitchen, rather, the dining
room set-up, put in another captain, a better waiter. I used to stay
there once in a while, but not all the time. In other words, you know
once the dining room ran, I just left and went home.
]Mr. Halley. Was Lynch also at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. Lynch was the man who gave all orders.
Mr. Halley. Lynch actually ran it?
Mr. Bruno. That is right.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 191
Mr. Halley. Was Anthony Guarini there?
Mr. Bruno. Yes ; I saw Mr. Guarini quite a bit. In fact, he came
once to the Patio Bruno before he went somewhere else.
Mr. Halley. Guarini was one of the bosses at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. Well, whether he was one of the bosses or not, I know he
gave orders to Dave High.
Mr. Halley. Was Salvatore Moretti at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. No.
Mr. Halley. Not at all?
Mr. Bruno. No. They were never around.
Mr. Halley. Neither William nor Salvatore?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was Doto there? Joe Doto?
Mr. Bruno. Yes.
Mr. Halley. At Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes. He came three or four times there.
Mr. Halley. And went into the gambling place ?
Mr. Bruno. No. He used to have people who dine, probably a
party of three or four, people that I knew around town today, and
then went home.
Mr. Halley. They wouldn't go in to gamble at all, ever?
Mr. Bruno. Very seldom as far as I know, because as I say I proba-
bly would be in the kitchen at a time he might go in or else he had
gone out. Many times I would come in the dining room and find he
had already gone.
Mr. Halley. Who are some of the people that Joe Adonis brought
out there to Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. A gentleman I remember was a man by the name of
Mr. Town. I imagine that is the way he spelled it. I know it is
Town. And somebody else he brought out that I know of. Three
or four other occasions I didn't know the people he had with him, but
they looked like nice people, you know.
Mr. Halley. Can you think of the names of anyone else that you
know whom he brought ?
Mr. Bruno. I would think probably a man by the name of Mr.
Harris.
Mr. Halley. Do you know their first names ?
Mr. Bruno. No ; I don't, sir. I know he is Mr. Harris to me, don't
you know, and that is about all.
Mr. Halley. Was Jerry Catena at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. I saw him once there ; yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Only once ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. He ate there ?
Mr. Bruno. He ate there.
Mr. Halley. Walked into the other room ?
Mr. Bruno. I guess he must have, because, as I say, I know that
that night he wtis there, I remember quite clearly, he was talking about
a new baby coming or something.
Mr. Halley. Just where was the place located at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. Lodi was route 6, Mr. Halley. It is about I would say
6 or 7 miles from the bridge. There was a gasoline station here, this
big square place here [indicating], and adjacent to that was another
tavern.
192 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJVUMERCE
Mr. Halley. Did the place at Lodi have any sign on the outside
of it?
Mr, Bruno. No signs.
Mr. Halley. How would the customers find it ?
Mr. Bruno. They didn't. They were brought there.
Mr. Halley. You mean nobody came in there in their own auto-
mobiles ?
Mr. Bruno. I don't think so, because they would never have found
the place.
Mr. Halley. The house had automobiles that went to New York
and got the people and brought them out.
Mr. Bruno. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Then at the end of the evening the house would send
them home again, is that right ?
Mr. Bruno. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you have anything to do with their transpor-
tation ?
Mr. Bruno, Not a thing.
Mr. Halley. How large a dining room was this?
Mr. Bruno. We had G2 chairs ; it was square.
Mr. Halley. And was the gambling room right next door?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley, Any doors between them ?
Mr, Bruno. Oh, yes. There was a sliding door, right next to the
coatroom here, like where the picture hangs, and the building came
this way and in that corner was a sliding door.
Mr. Halley. Was that generally open ?
Mr. Bruno. Generally closed.
Mr. Halley, Generally it was closed ?
Mr, Bruno, Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley, You didn't charge any money for the meals at Lodi ?
Mr, Bruno. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. What other gambling places did you work in ? Before
we leave Lodi, was Rutkin at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. No.
Mr. Halley. James Rutkin,
Mr. Bruno. No. I never saw him there.
Mr, Halley, You worked at the Beverly Club, did you not, at New
Orleans ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes; I went down there. I didn't work, Mr. Halley.
I just went down there to organize the crew. I wasn't particularly
anxious to go aw^ay from New York anyway. My family lives here.
Mr. Halley. Who asked you to go there ?
Mr. Bruno. Mr. Kastel.
Mr, Halley, Where did you meet him ?
Mr, Bruno, At the Sherry Netherland,
Mr, Halley, New York?
Mr, Bruno. In New York, and Mr. Lansky got me an interview
with Mr. Kastel.
ISIr. Halley. Did Meyer Lansky introduce you to Kastel ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Meyer Lansky ?
i
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 193
Mr. Bruno. Oh, on and off, I would say since 1942 or 1943, some-
where around there.
Mr. Halley. You worked at the Beverly Club in 1946 ?
Mr, Bruno. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. For how long a period ?
Mr. Bruno. I went down in 1945. Then I was stricken with pneu-
monia and taken to a hotel. Kastel was very kind to pay most of
the expenses anyway. Then I came back home. Then Mr. Kastel
called me up, long distance, and said come down. We would like your
advice on a few things here and there. So I went down again, but I
didn't like it. So I stayed probably, I don't know, 3 or 4 months.
The withholding slips tell the story. Then I came back to New York
City. I didn't like New Orleans a bit.
Mr. Halley. How did Lansky get in touch with you ?
Mr. Bruno. He used to come around to the Versailles Hotel where
I worked. I used to meet him once at the Sherry Netherland, you
know, and like the other night I was there and saw Jim Rutkin there
to my great amazement.
Mr. Halley. Where did you see Jim Rutkin ?
Mr. Bruno. At the Sherry Netherland.
Mr. Halley. Wlien was that?
Mr. Bruno. Oh, I don't know, about 10 or 12 days ago.
Mr. Halley, Have you seen Jerry Catena lately ?
Mr. Bruno. I haven't seen Jerry Catena for years.
Mr. Halley. Or Joe Doto ?
Mr, Bruno, No; Joe Doto I saw him the last time in June, He
came to my place to eat.
Mr. Hallea'. Who was with him when he came to your restaurant?
Mr. Bruno. His lawyer.
Mr. Halley, Who is that?
Mr, Bruno, Mr, Harold Corbin. At least I think he is his lawyer.
Mr. Hallea". Does Frank Costello come to your restaurant to eat?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, sir. He came there, strangely enough, a week
before Mr. Murray came to see me. He had a party of nine. They
came very early. In fact I found them there. By 7 : 30 or a quarter
of eight they were gone.
Mr. Halley. Who was in the party with Costello ?
Mr. Bruno. Two ladies, but I don't know them. Two ladies and
two men. One man I think the name could be Sherman, but I can't
swear to it. You see it sounds familiar, white hair, combed back, and
that is all.
Mr. Halley. You didn't know either of the men before ?
INIr. Bruno. No, sir; I didn't. I know them by sight, but I don't
know their names.
Mr. Halley. In 1946 you also worked at the Colonial Inn in Flor-
ida, is that right ?
Mr. Bruno. That is correct,
JMr, Halley. Was that before or after you worked at the Beverly
Club?
Mr, Bruno. The Beverly Club was the beginning of the season of
1946, followed by a season at the Deal Golf and Country Club, As
to that I went down to the Colonial Inn, I worked there I think from
December to March 16 or 17,
Mr. Halley. Who hired you at the Colonial ?
194 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJMERCE
Mr. Bruno. Mr. Lynch sent me down to see Mr. Jake Lansky.
Mr. Halley. Lynch sent you to see Jake Lansky ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes. He told me to go down there and there is a job
for you, that is all.
Mr. Halley. At that time were you working for Lynch up at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. No.
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to see Lynch ?
Mr. Bruno. He called me at the house. He had my phone number.
He used always to call through Dave High, and Dave High would say
Mr. Lynch says for you to go down to the Colonial Inn.
Mr. Halley. Did Dave High work for Lynch ?
Mr. Bruno. I believe that is the set-up.
The Chairman. Who did he work for at the Colonial Inn ?
Mr. Halley. You worked in 1946, is that right ?
Mr. Bruno. That is correct, sir— 1946 to the end of 1946 and the
beginning of 1947, 1 left there about March 17.
Mr. Halley. When did you work at Lodi ? I don't think I have
the dates quite right.
Mr. Bruno. Let's see now. We worked at Lodi, I believe, in be-
tween seasons, isn't it, 1946 ? Yes ; November to the end. Mr. Halley,
isn't it the fall of 1946 ?
Mr. Halley. I don't know. You haven't brought your withholding
certificates for Lodi.
Mr. Bruno. I believe it is there, one of the red slips.
Mr. Halley. One of the red ones ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes.
Mr. Halley. This mav be it. I am sorry. For 1947 it would be.
Mr. Bruno. 1947.
Mr. Halley. That is right. The L. & C. Amusement Co.; is that
ri^ht ?
Mr. Bruno. That is right. With all those names down there.
Mr. Halley. With James Lynch.
Mr. Bruno. Eight.
Mr. Halley. Jerry Catena.
Mr. Bruno. Right.
Mr. Halley. Joe Doto.
Mr. Bruno. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Salvatore Moretti.
Mr. Bruno. That is right.
Mr. Halley. The ones you saw there w^ere Lynch and
Mr. Bruno. And Tony Guarini.
Mr. Halley. They both gave orders all the time ?
Mr. Bruno. That is right.
The Chairman. That is Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. I knew it couldn't be 1946 because I couldn't have put
the time in there. Because I was at Deal the best part of the summer.
Mr. Halley. What was your salary at Lodi ?
Mr. Bruno. $100 a week.
Mr. Halley. You worked there then 15 weeks ; it shows here $1,500.
$1,500.
Mr, Bruno. That is about right. That would be about right.
Mr. Halley. What was your salary down at the Beverly Club ?
Mr. Bruno. $75 a week, I think. I don't tliink it reached $100.
You see, I was not the head waiter. I was not the maitre d'hotel. I
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 195
was just sort of adviser because I didn't want to stay there. We put
in a head waiter from New York City, and tlie man is working out
here at Gu}^ Lombardo's place on Lono- Ishmd.
Mr. Halley. What was your salary at the Colonial Inn ?
Mr. Bruno. I think it was $200 a week, sir. I am not sure, but I
believe that is what it was.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever work at Saratoga ?
Mr. Bruno. Never. I have never been to Saratoga.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever work in any other gambling place?
Mr. Bruno. Yes ; Montauk Point, the year of the hurricane.
Mr. Halley. That was about 1938.
Mr. Bruno. I would say so, in the summer.
Mr. Halley. Where did you work, the Montauk Club?
Mr. Bruno. The Montauk Club Island Club.
Mr. Halley. Montauk at the tip of Long Island here in New York.
Who was your boss there ?
Mr. Bruno. A man by the name of Lou Meyers.
Mr, Halley. Did he own the club ?
Mr. Bruno. I think so. A very aged old gentleman, a very old
gentleman.
Mr. Halley. You more or less specialized, didn't you, in working
at these clubs ?
Mr. Bruno. Not necessarily, sir, because I tell you what, most of my
time was spent with the bathing and tennis club, Deal Golf Club, the
Hollywood Beach Hotel, the Biltmore Hotel in Coral Gables, the Surf
Club ; I built Versaille and worked there 2 years, and there certainly
was no gambling there.
Mr. Halley, I would like to show you two pictures and will try to
show them to you one at the time and you let us know if you recognize
them,
Mr. Bruno. No ; I don't recognize this man.
Mr, Halley. Did you remember ever serving him at your clubs or
seeing him eating at any of your places where you have worked ?
Mr, Bruno, No ; he cloesn't look familiar at all, sir.
Mr. Hat, LEY. Try this one.
Mr. Bruno. This looks more familiar than the first one, but I don't
know who this second man is.
Mr. Halley. Could you say whether or not you have ever seen the
man in the second picture ?
Mr. Bruno. As I say, he looks familiar, but I don't know for sure
whether I know him or not. The first one I know definitely I don't.
Mr. Halley. Would you say where you have seen the one. who looks
familiar ?
Mr. Bruno. Probably in my own place or probably in Miami
Beach. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Halley. Could it possibly be any other place ?
Mr. Bruno. I don't think so, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Mr, Frank Borell, the chief of police
of Cliffside?
Mr, Bruno. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mr. Michael Orecchio ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You never met Michael Orecchio ?
196 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, Bruno. Definitely not. I really don't know those people ; please
believe me.
Mr. Halley. Did they ever come into your place ?
Mr. Bruno. No, sir. Somebody just asked me here for the address
of my place, and I don't know the person at all, in this very room.
Mr. Halley. No other questions.
Mr. Bruno. Thank you.
The Chairman. Any questions, Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobey. No. I am sorry I was out during part of the
testimony.
The Chairman. Mr. Kostelanetz ?
Mr. Kostelanetz: No.
The Chairman. TMiat is the address of your place of business here?
Mr. Bruno. 24 West Fifty-fifth, Mr. Senator.
The Chairman. Yes; give us a card. We might come around.
INfr. Bruno. I would be very honored to have you as my guest. In-
deed I would.
The Chairman. Did you ever operate a place at Saratoga Springs?
Mr. Bruno. No ; and I have never been to Saratoga.
The Chairman. Is Frank Costello a frequent customer of yours?
Mr. Bruno. No. I have been trying to discourage them from com-
ing, and they have been weeded out gradually. It is no credit to a
place to have them come around.
The Chairman. To have who come around ?
Mr. Bruno. Frank Costello, and Joe Doto, and what not.
The Chairman. When Frank Costello comes, who does he usually
come with ?
Mr. Bruno. As I say, sometimes he comes with two girls, sometimes
he comes with somebody I don't know.
The Chairman. Does he come with Joe Doto ?
]Mr. Bruno. No, sir ; they have never been together.
The Chairman. With Frank Erickson ?
Mr. Bruno. Yes, he was ; the early part of last summer, Mr. Senator.
The Chairman. Did he come several times ?
Mr. Bruno. Twice.
The Chairman. "V^Hio else did he come with ?
Mr. Bruno. I can't remember that now. The persons he comes with,
just two or three people I don't know. They are not like Mr.
Erickson.
The Chairman. How about Mr. Lansky and Mr. Catena?
Mr. Bruno. Mr. Catena does not come.
The Chairman. And Mr. Moretti. Does Frank Costello come with
them?
Mr. Bruno. No. Mr. Lansky was there a couple of times with Mrs.
Lansky and enjoj'ed his dinner, but they come, they eat, they pay,
and they go.
The CiiAiR3iAN. How about Maj^or O'Dwyer, does he come around
to your place often?
Mr. Bruno. No ; but I have had the Acting Mayor Impellitteri. I
have had the former Chief of Police Ryan.
The Chairman. They come with Frank Costello ?
Mr. Bruno. Oh, no, please.
The Chairman. How do you go about discouraging these people?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJSOIERCE 197
Mr. Bruno. You start giving them bad service, and they start to
bawl you out and the first thing you ivuow they don't come around.
The Chairman. You put too much sak in their food ?
Mr. Bruno. There are always nine ways to skin a cat and we know
how to do it.
Senator Tobey. Put a little croton oil in their drink.
Mr. Bruno. You can't do that because there is a 3-year law against
that.
The Chairman. No more questions. That is all, Mr. Bruno. Thank
you.
The Chairman. Thank you, sir.
Senator Tobey. When did Mr. Adonis come there last ?
Mr. Bruno. The day he came back from Washington I understand,
with a gentleman who I think was his lawyer.
Senator Tobey. From Washington?
Mr. Bruno. From Washington.
The Chairman. We want to give you back some of your records.
Mr. Bruno. All right, Mr. Senator.
Mr. Halley. Let the record show that the two we will keep are
Mr. Bruno. I lost a set of those things before to the Treasury Depart-
ment, gentlemen, and I don't want to lose those too.
Mr. Halley. We will take good care of them and will keep only
two. One is withholding receipt for 19-14 from James Eutlin, and the
other is withholding statement, 1947, from L. & C. Amusement Co.
Mr. Bruno. Okay.
The Chairman. How about the Beverly Club in Miami ?
Mr. Halley. I don't think we need them now.
The Chairman. Who is the Madison, Inc. ?
Mr. Bruno. That is one of the nicest hotels in town, sir.
The Chairman. Is that who paid you here at one time? You
worked for them at one time ?
Mr. Bruno. Oh, sure. Also the Waldorf and Delmonico, Barbison.
The Chairman. Who got your job at the Waldorf?
Mr. Bruno. The late Mr. Boomer. I knew him very well.
The Chairman. Did Frank Costello give vou a recommendation at
the Waldorf?
Mr. Bruno. For the Waldorf?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Bruno. Oh, no, sir. We go through the regular hotel channels
for that.
The Chairman. All right. We have two of your receipts here and
you will get the other ones back. Thank you, Mr. Bruno.
Mr. Bruno. Thank you, gentlemen.
The Chairman. Mr. Bernstein, will you hold up your hand and be
sworn. Do you solmenly swear the testimony you will give this com-
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Bernstein. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES B. BERNSTEIN, JAMAICA, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. You are James B. Bernstein ?
Mr. Bernstein. James B. Bernstein.
Mr. Halley. Your residence, please ?
198 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Bernstein. 8125 Grand Central Parkway, Jamaica 2, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Bernstein. Vice president of Merchants Bank of New York.
Mr. Halley. Where is that bank located ?
Mr. Bernstein. 434 Broadway, New York.
Mr. Halley. Does it have a branch ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes. We have branch at 93 Canal Street, New
York.
Mr. Halley. No other branches ?
Mr. Bernstein. No other branches.
Mr. Halley. What is the capitalization of that bank?
Mr. Bernstein. About half a million dollars surplus, another half
million dollars. About a million.
Mr. Halley. What are the total deposits?
Mr. Bernstein. Approximately $24,000,000 .
Mr. Halley. How long- has the bank been in operation ?
Mr. Bernstein. I believe about twenty-some-odd years. It for-
merly was a private bank and then they were able to get a charter for
a bank.
Mr. Halley. Who is the president ?
Mr. Bernstein. Arnold Markel.
Mr. Halley. Is he the head of a Marcal Co. that deals in napkins
or tissues?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Mr. Halley. Is he related to the Marcal people ?
Mr. Bernstein. Not that I know of. I don't know. I know he
has one brother.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any customers who are in the paper
business, paper napkins ?
Mr. Bernstein. Manufacturing or jobbing?
Mr. Halley. Either.
Mr. Bernstein. We have a couple of jobbers.
Mr. Halley. Do you have anyone who are called Marcal Co. ?
Mr. Bernstein. None.
Mr. Halley. \Y1io is the chairman of the board ?
Mr. Bernstein. Mr. Markel, the president.
Mr. Halley. He occupies both positions ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is he the dominating figure in the bank?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Max Stark?
Mr. Bernstein. About 17 years.
Mr. Halley. Has he banked with your bank ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Is he known to Mr. Markel ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Are they good friends ?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't think so.
Mr. Halley. "WTiat is Stark's business ?
Mr. Bernstein. He is in the finance business.
Mr. Halley. Check cashing business, too ?
Mr. Bernstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to his place of business?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN" INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199
Mr. Halley. Are yon on a social basis with him?
Mr. Bernstein. I used to be.
Mr. Hallet. Up to how long ago ?
Mr. Bernstein. Up to about a year or two ago.
Mr. Hallet. You mean until he was convicted ?
Mr. Bernstein. That is right.
INIr. Halley. Do you know whether Mr. Markel was on a social basis
with him ?
Mr. Bernstein. He was not.
Mr. Halley. How long have you been with the bank ?
]Mr. Bernstein. Seventeen years.
Mr. Halley. During all that time has Mr. Markel been the head of
the bank?
Mr. Bernstein. No. His brother was at the head, a younger
brother was the head. He passed away about 3 years ago.
Mr. Halley. Then the present Mr. Markel took over ?
Mr. Bernstein. Took over.
Mr. Halley. What is his first name ?
Mr. Bernstein. Arnold, A-r-n-o-l-d.
Mr. Halley. You started with his brother ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Are you related to the Markel's in any way ?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Mr. Halley. What was your original position with the bank?
Mr. Bernstein. When I first started ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Bernstein. Teller.
Mr. Halley. You have worked your way up to vice president.
Mr. Bernstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. How many vice presidents does the bank have ?
Mr. Bernstein. At the present time ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Bernstein. I believe two others, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did Stark in 1947 have a conversation with you about
the need to cash some checks?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr; Halley. What did he say? Will you tell the committee all
about the transaction ? It might save time.
Mr. Bernstein. Yes. He said he had just contracted some kind
of deal where he was going to deposit an awful lot of checks.
Mr. Halley. Did he say he would deposit them or merely cash them ?
Mr. Bernstein. Deposit them.
Mr. Halley. Was there any further conversation ?
Mr. Bernstein. That he might have to draw an awful lot of cash
with his own check. We should see that we give him good service
when he appears.
Mr. Halley. What he wanted was to be able to cash checks imme-
diately, wasn't it ?
Mr. Bernstein. That is right. He was to cash his own check im-
mediately and he used to deposit a string of checks.
Mr. Halley. In other words, what he would do was deposit a string
of checks and then he would draw his own check against that money
immediately ?
200 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Bernstein. Not against that money. He always carried suffi-
cient balances.
Mr. H ALLEY. What was the problem, then? No man would ever
liave difficulty cashing checks against actual balances, would he?
Mr. Bernstein. You see, he maintained his account in our branch
at 93 Canal Street, and as a rule at the branch we didn't carry much
cash unless a customer required that much cash. In fact, the routine
was to tell the customer to try to let us know a day in advance to
keep additional amount of cash. Ordinarily we don't keep so much
cash at the branch. We keep most of the cash at the main office.
Mr. Hallet. How much cash did he require? What was the
average?
Mr. Bernstein. I would say about $25,000 to $30,000.
Mr. Halley. Each day ?
Mr. Berns'tein. I would say about four times a week, on an aver-
age.
Mr. Halley. Did you arrange this so that he could get that cash ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir.
INIr. Halley. Did you ask him the source of the checks ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes. I at once asked him where are you getting
all these checks? He said he had a contact where he is cashing all
these checks for a fee.
Mr. Halley. Did he say what the source of the checks was ?
Mr. Bernstein. The second time I asked him what was the source
of the checks, and he said, Oh, he is cashing them for some person,
that he has acquired them from some games in Jersey.
Mr. Halley. Did he elaborate whether he meant gambling games?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't remember whether he elaborated gambling
games or not.
Mr. Halley. You didn't think it was tennis or ping-pong, did
you?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Mv. Halley. What did you think ?
Mr. Bernstein. Some kind of games.
Mr. Halley. You knew it was gambling by intuition and common
sense and business prudence, wouldn't you say it was gambling^
Mr. Bernstein. I found that out later.
Mr. Halley. It put you on guard at once, didn't it?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You said it was gambling in your heart, didn't you?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. In fact as a banker you knew you might have trouble
with some people who gave you checks for gambling, that they might
well stop payment on them and be able to defend a lawsuit, isn't that
right ?
Mr. Bernstein. I didn't know that.
Mr. Halley. If they were gambling checks, you took a risk with
them, did you not?
Mv. Bernstein. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Were you given any consideration for taking that
risk?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 201
Mr. Halley. Did Stark have sufficient balances to cover any that
bounced?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir.
Mr, Halley, Did any of these checks ever bounce ?
Mr. Bernstein. I really don't know because I didn't take care
of that end. I didn't bother with that.
]\Ir. Halley. Early in 1948 did you have another talk with Stark
about these checks ?
Mr. Bernstein. I believe I did.
Mr. Halley. Wliat was that ?
Mr. Bernstein. I think on or about that time we had the banking
department in, and they were investigating the account. I told the
story to the bank examiner at that time. The bank examiner in-
vestigated tluB account. I told Stark, I said, "Look, the banking
department is criticizing or is about to criticize that. You will have
to stop this business. You w^ill have to find another banking con-
nection."
Mr. Halley. On this occasion again did he say he was cashing the
check for some games?
]Mr. Bernstein, That is right, he was getting them for a fee, and
he said he was going to stop doing business with us.
Mr, Halley, When he brought the checks in and thfen wrote out his
own check for cash, did he want it in any particular denominations ?
Mv. Bernstein. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Didn't he want it generally clean new $20, $50, and
$100 bills?
Mr. Bernstein. That I don't know because I do not handle the
cash. I was not the teller.
]Mr. Halley. You were never told that?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Were special facilities made for guarding him when
he left the bank with these sums of cash ?
Mr. Bernstein. Xo. We didn't make any facilities for guarding
him at all.
Mr. Halley. Did he have a guard with him ?
]\Ir. Bernstein, He always had an extra man or two. There was
never one person who came in alone.
]Mr. Halley. Do you know the names of any of the people who
came in with him ?
Mr. Bernstein. One was Philip Brosclofzky.
Mr. Halley, Anyone else that you know ?
Mr, Berenstein, There is another short, curly-haired fellow, I
really don't know what his second name is, I know his first name.
He is called Leizer.
Mr. Halley. L-i-z-e-r?
Mr. Bernstein. L-e-i-z-e-r.
Mr. Halley. Had you known Brosclofzky before ?
Mr. Bernstein. No. Well, I met him. He was working for Stark.
Before he was working for Stark I hadn't known him.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go out and take a look at any of these
gambling games?
Mv. Bernstein. No, sir.
68958 — 51 — pt. 7 14
202 ORGANIZED CRIJVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Or get any of tlie free meals they served out there ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You never checked that ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. From the point of view of your bank, it was just an
ordinary accommodation to Max Stark?
Mr. Bernstein. That is all it was ; yes.
Mr. Halley. There was no extra fee involved ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. It must have been a great deal of trouble.
Mr. Bernstein, It was rather active.
Mr. Halley. How many checks on the average would he bring in
a day ?
Mr. Bernstein. I would say about 60 or TO.
Mr. Halley. Then he would need about $25,000 or $^5,000 in cash.
Mr. Bernstein. $25,000 to $30,000 in cash.
Mr. Halley. AVhat is the total amount of money that went through
the bank in this way ?
Mr. Berenstein. I haven't any idea, gentlemen. I never saw the
figures on that.
Mr. Halley. Isn't it over $5,000,000?
Mr. Bernstein. From w^hat I saw in the paper one day, I think
it was over that', but I never figured it up.
Mr. Halley. This is within a period of about a year ; is that right,
less than that ?
Mr. Bernstein. I don't even know the length of time.
The Chairman. Wliat were the dates, Mr. Halley ?
Mr. Halley. He first approached you, did he not, toward the end
of 1947?
Mr. Bernstein. Some time around that.
Mr. Halley. And the banking department began to complain early
in March 1948 ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Mr. Halley. So $5,000,000 in checks must have gone through your
bank in a period of less than 6 months.
Mr. Bernstein. That is about what it sums up.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
Senator Tobey. Didn't that occasion surprise and raising of the
eyebrow s of the board of directors of the Merchants Bank to find an
obscure fellow, a little fellow, a common fellow, putting $5,000,000 in
checks through his bank account, and the bank had to collect them?
Didn't that occasion surprise and indignation ?
Mr. Bernstein. They never questioned it.
Senator Tobey. The directors never questioned a man with $5,-
000,000 going through his bank account within 6 months?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Senator Tobey. No.
Senator Tobey. How many other individual depositors do you have
who have $5,000,000 go through ?
Mr. Bernstein. In checks?
Senator Tobey. Checks.
Mr. Bernstein. We have several customers.
Senator Tobey. Individuals?
ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 203
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Here is a $5,000,000 and you didn't question that
and weren't surprised at all ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
Senator Tobet. When they put those checks in how did he credit
it to his account?
Mr. Bernstein. The same day.
Senator Tobey. You credited his account the same day the checks
were put in without waiting for collection?
Mr. Bernstein. No.
Senator Tobey. But you didn't need to give it the same day because
he already had a sufficient balance you said to give that amount of
money, is that right?
Mr. Bernsttiin. That is right.
Senator Tobey. Then why did you credit it ? Why didn't you pro-
tect yourself by waiting for collection ?
Mr. Bernstein. We waited 2 days.
Senator Tobey. You said the same day.
Mr. Bernstein. But there was sufficient money. His account used
to be credited but when the account is credited there is a certain symbol
made on the sheet what portion of it is uncollected, and if none of that
deposit had come back after 2 days, it is automatically collected.
Senator Tobey. Yes, exactly. They do things that are interesting
in New York. I know a little bit abo\it banking but I won't say anj
more.
The Chairman. Mr. Bernstein. The banking department of New
York State complained, is that correct?
Mr. Bernstein. They didn't make a written complaint, but the
examiner at that time who was looking into the account said something
to me about it.
The Chairman. What was his complaint?
Mr. Bernstein. That there is an awful lot of activity on the ac-
count.
The Chairman. Activity is all right on any account, isn't it ? He
just didn't like the smell of it.
Mr. Bernstein. He didn't like the type of business.
The Chairman. Did you know what type of business it was?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes; I told him they were checks that he was real-
izing from some games in Jersey.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, Mr. Stark is a substantial
stockholder of the bank, isn't he ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Has that been brought out?
Mr. Halley. No, it has not.
The Chairman. How much stock does he own in the bank ?
Mr. Bernstein. Approximately 2,000 shares.
The Chairman. How many shares are there?
Mr. Bernstein. Twenty thousand.
The Chairman. So he owns 10 percent.
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is he a director?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have the statement of your directors and
officers of the bank with you ?
204 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir; I haven't.
The Chairman. What other people like Mr. Stark, who have been
engaged in racketeering or gambling own stock in the bank? Does
Mr. Meyer Lansky own any stock in the bank?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir; no other that I know of.
The Chairman. Do you have any objection to submitting to the
committee a list of your officers, directors, and stockholder?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Do you want me to do it from memory now ?
I will do it the best I can.
The Chairman. How many stockholders are there?
Mr. Bernstein. Stockholdei"s, I can't, but directors and officers.
The Chairman. You give us a list of the stockholders and the
amount of stock they own. Will you do that ?
Mr. Bernstein. I would have to ask Mr. Markel.
The Chairman. You ask Mr. Markel if he will supply that to the
committee, and Mr. Kostelanetz will take that.
Mr. Bernstein. A list of stockholders.
The Chairman. Yes, that is right. Now give us a list of the offi-
cers and directors.
Mr. Bernstein. Mr. Arnold Markel, who is president. There is
Mr. I. Altman, who is vice president. There is Mr. Fabian Roll. He
is a vice president. There is Mr. Mori'is Soi-gen. 1 think he is assist-
ant vice president. There is Mr. M. Bobrow, assistant cashier. There
is Mr. Zeigler, who is assistant cashier. There is a Mr. R. Hertz, assist-
ant cashier. There is a Mr. J. Wagner, an assistant cashier, including
myself.
The Chairman. Is that all ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
The Chairman. How much personnel of the bank did handling this
account tie up ? That was a pretty big job, was it not ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, just one teller, and the bookkeeper who carries
the account with the ordinary ledger of accounts. No additional
personnel.
The Chairman. How much balance did Mr. Stark keep in the bank ?
Mr. Bernstein. I would say his balances were anywhere between
20, 40, 50, and 60 thousand dollars, average, at that time.
The Chairman. So he would deposit these checks and simultane-
ously withdraw about the same amount.
Mr. Bernstein. That is right.
The Chairman. Did you talk with him about how much commis-
sion he got out of this deal ?
Mr. Bernstein. I didn't talk to him, but he once told me himself,
and I think he gets a certain percentage. I don't know whether it
was one-half percent of 1 percent for cashing them.
The Chairman. But he did get a percentage ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes.
The Chairman. Did the bank get any percentage ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
The Chairman. What did you get out of it?
Mr. Bernstein. Nothing.
Senator Tobey. Did you make a service charge ?
Mr. Bernstein. Yes, sir; depending upon the activity of the ac-
count.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205
Senator Tobey, How much was it probably ?
Mr. Bernstein. I haven't any idea, gentlemen. You see, we base
our service charges on the activity, how many checks issued, how many
checks deposited, and the average balance is taken into consideration.
The Chairman. The truth about the matter, Mr. Bernstein, is that
you let Mr. Stark do this, which tied up a lot of your personnel and
you didn't get anything substantial out of it, because he owned 10
percent of the bank.
Mr. Bernstein. That is the thing, he was a stockholder. That is
one of the reasons.
The Chairman. That is the principal reason, isn't it?
Mr. Bernstein. That is right.
The Chairman. Does Frank Costello have an account in your bank?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
The Chairman. Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
The Chairman. Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, sir.
The Chairman. Any further questions ?
Senator Tobey. Isn't this a pretty good example of what they call
kiting checks ?
Mr. Bernstein. No, Senator, this is not kiting checks.
The Chairman. Mr. Bernstein, you will ask Mr. Markel to supply
the list and furnish it to Mr. Kostelanetz, and if we need you any more
in connection with this inquiry we will call you, but the subpena
served on you will be continuing.
Mr. Bernstein. O. K., sir.
The Chairman. That is all for now, Mr. Bernstein.
Mr. Bernstein. I will send that to Mr. Kostelanetz.
The Chairman. Mr. Boris Kostelanetz. Send it to this address.
Are you Milton Kessler? Do you solemnly swear the testimony
you will give this committee wall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF MILTON KESSLER, BROOKLYN, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name ?
Mr. Kessler. Milton Kessler.
Mr. Halley. What is your address ?
Mr. I^ssler. 188 East Ninety-first Street, Brooklyn.
Mr. Halley. How old are you ?
Mr. Kessler. Tliirty-nine. I will be forty soon.
Mr. Halley. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Kessler. Dealer.
Mr. Halley. What kind of dealer?
Mr. Kessler. Roulette.
Mr. Halley. How long have you been engaged in that occupation?
Mr. Kessler. Since 1937, 1 think.
Mr. Halley. Are you working now ?
Mr. Kj:ssler. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you been out of work?
Mr. Kessler. Since the latter part of February.
206 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COAIMERCE
Mr. Halley. In 1945 you worked for Jimmie La Fontaine in Mary-
land?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir ; in 1944 or 1945.
Mr. Halley. How long did you work for La Fontaine ?
Mr. Kessler. Oh, I don't know ; 4 or 5 months, I think.
Mr. Halley. What was the name of his place ?
Mr. Kessler. The Maryland Athletic Club.
Mr. Halley. Who else besides Jimmie La Fontaine were your
bosses there ?
Mr. Kessler. There was just one that I know of, and that was a
fellow by the name of Price.
Mr. Halley. What was his first name ?
Mr. Kessler. They just called him Whitey, Whitey Price.
Mr. Halley. During that time did you live in Washington?
Mr. I^ssLER. I lived in Washington, yes; and after that I got an
apartment and lived in Bladensburg, right near there.
Mr. Halley. Did you work for any other gambling houses in the
vicinity of Washington ?
Mr. I^ESSLER. No ; that is the only place.
Mr. Halley. Did you know of any other places ?
Mr. Kessler. I never paid much attention. I think there was an-
other place, but I was never there.
Mr. Halley. Where was the other place ?
Mr. Kessler. In Maryland some place.
Mr. Halley. Near La Fontaine's ?
Mr. KJESSLER. No ; I don't think there was any place near there that
I know of.
Mr. Halley. Where was the other one, in what area ?
Mr. Kessler. I don't know the directions so well there. I know that
sometime after I left there I think this particular place was raided.
Mr. Halley. You mean the other place ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Mr. Halley. While you were working for Fontaine was his place
raided?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know the name of the other place ?
Mr. Kessler. No; I don't.
Mr. Halley. Or who owned it ?
Mr. Kessler. No ; but I think a Myers did.
Mr. Halley. M-y-e-r-s?
Mr. Kessler. I don't know how you spell it, but from the talk, you
know, that you would hear.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear that Frank Costello had an inter-
est in Jimmie La Fontaine's place ?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him there?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was Joe Adonis?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You never saw him there ?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
Mr. Halij3y. Just name some of the other places where you worked
prior to 1945 ; just quickly give the names,
Mr. Kessler. In 19oG I worked at the Ohio Villa, in Cleveland. I
also worked in Florida prior to 1945, at the Plantation. I also worked
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 207
at the Riviera. I think that Avas in 19-il that I worked at the Riviera.
I was there I wonld say 3 months or 4 months possibly at the Riviera.
Then after that back to Florida again. It was mostly around Florida.
After a while, I think it was in 1942 or 1943—1942 I think it was
that I went to work in a defense plant in Detroit, Briggs Manufactur-
ing, an airplane defense plant. I worked there until I had mushroom
poisoning which brought on a convulsion and I broke my back, and I
lost my job because of that. They wouldn't hire me back. That
takes me into 1944 when I worked for the Maryland Athletic Club
after that.
Then after Jimmie La Fontaine, I think that took me back to Flor-
ida again, and then from Florida back to New York, where I went
to work in Jersey.
Mr, Halley. Do you have your withholding-tax certificates from
1945 on?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
(Documents produced.)
Mr. Halley. Where did you first go to work in Jersey in 1945 ?
Mr. Kessler. At this place on Route 6 in Lodi. Let me see, in 1945.
No, in 1945 I think the first place I went to work was in Paterson.
Mr. Halley. How did you get that job?
Mr. Kessler. Through — well, almost all the fellows that worked
there I knew, and I also found out that they were going to open, so I
went there to get the job.
Mr. Halley. Who are some of the fellows who worked there?
Mr. Kessler. You mean dealers ?
Mr. Halley. Well, who was in charge?
Mr. Kessler. It seemed like Greeno ; Tony Greeno.
Mr. Halley. Tony Greeno ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Mr. Halley, He is also known as Guarini ?
Mr. Kessler. That is his name, I think. That is the way you
pronounce it, I guess.
Mr. Halley. He is the man whose name appears on your withhold-
ing receipt ; is that right ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You got your orders from him ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And instructions.
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. "V\^io else was there in charge at this first place in
Paterson, N. J. ?
Mr. Kessler. There was a fellow by the name of Lynch that worked
in the office.
Mr. Halley. Jimmie Lynch?
Mr. KJESSLER. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was Jerry Catena around there ?
Mr. Kessler. No, I never saw him.
Mr. Halley. Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Kessler. I saw him occasionally, like you know he would
just come in and then I would look around and he would be gone. I
mean I was busy working most of the time anyway.
Mr. Halley. He would come in and look around the room where
you had the roulette wheel ?
208 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kessler. Yes, I would look up and see him and continue with
my work.
Mr. Haeley. Was he one of the bosses ?
Mr. Kessler. I don't know whether he was a boss or not. I was
never told anything about him.
Mr. Halley. Did he ever give you any orders or make suggestions?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did he ever give any orders or make suggestions at
Lodi?
Mr. Kessler. No. I saw him at Lodi.
Mr. Halley. You saw hini in both the Paterson place and at Lodi?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did Al Goldfine recommend you for that first job?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, I have known Alec for a long time. He had
charge of the help.
Mr. Halley. Who got you your job in the latter part of 1945 at the
Club Greenacres?
Mr. Kessler. I got that myself because I had worked for Mr. Lan-
sky before. I got the job with Sammy Brant.
Mr. Halley. Sammy Brant actually hired you ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. I knew Sammy when he was a dealer.
Mr. Halley. Did Abe Allenberg hang around the Greenacres ?
Mr. Kessler. I don't know him, sir.
Mr. Halley. You don't know him at all ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
The Chairman. Suppose you come back at 1 :30, sharp. Can you
do that?
Mr. Kessler. O. K.
Mr. Halley. Or 1 :15. We are going to take a very short time out
for lunch and you can get some lunch now.
Mr. Kessler. May I make a request ? I was told that this would be
a closed hearing and that my name would not appear in the paper.
The Chairman. Who told you that, sir?
Mr. Kessler. The gentleman when I first made my statement that
I signed. Because of my children going to school, you know, in the
neighborhood there I would appreciate it very much for their sake
if my name wasn't put in the paper. I don't think that I am that
important to have it in there. If I didn't have children I wouldn't
make the request.
The Chairman. How many children have you ?
Mr. Kessler. Two. The little boy is nine and the girl is seven.
The Chairman. ^'V'liat are you doing now ?
Mr. Kessler. Nothing.
The Chairman. I wish we could grant your request, but I am afraid
we can't.
Mr. Kessler. I am sorry, Senator. I really have nothing else except
what is on that paper.
The Chairman. Will you be back at 1:15?
Mr. Kessler. Okay. Do I leave my slips here ?
The Chairman. We will take care of them.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 25 p. m. the committee recessed until 1 : 15 p. m.
the same day.)
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 209
AFTER RECESS
(The committee reconvened at 1 : 50 p. m.)
The Chairman. The hearing will be in order.
Come around, Mr. Kessler.
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF MILTON KESSLER, BROOKLYN, N. Y.
The Chairman. Mr. Kessler, for this executive session we have
decided not to release your name that you have testified here.
Mr. Kessler. Thank you very much, Senator.
The Chairman. Let's proceed.
Mr. Halley. You worked at Greenacres in 1945 ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. That is the place where Lefty Clark ran a crap game?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Then you went to Las Yegas ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Mr. Halley. The Flamingo ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. That wasn't open that early, was it ?
Mr. Kessler. I left for Las Vegas in December.
Mr. Halley. Of 1945 ?
Mr. Kessler. No, in 1946.
Mr. Halley. Where were you all through 1946? Were you back
in Jersey ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. We have some of your withholding slips here. You
do show a withholding statement for the Flamingo.
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Mr. Halley. In 1946.
Mr. Kessler. I went there. I worked there I think 4 days of 1946
going into 1947, until July.
Mr. Halley. You also worked at the Greenacres in 1946?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. In 1947, you were back again at the Flamingo ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, until July.
Mr. Halley. And at Saratoga.
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir. "Wlien I came back from the Flamingo I
went to Saratoga.
jMr. Halley. You worked with L. & L. there ?
Mr. Kessler. At the Arrowhead, yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How did you get your job at the Arrowhead?
Mr. Kessler. Wlien I went up there I heard that Alec was going
to be there.
Mr. Halley. Alec Goldrine ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir. So I got a job there.
Mr. Halley. Was Jimmie Lynch in the office there ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And Schaf er was there too ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, he was in charge of the help with Alec. He was
the straw boss.
Mr. Halley. Was Meyer Lansky up there ?
Mr. Kessler. I saw him up there, yes, sir.
210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. At the Arrowhead ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. That is in 1947?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did he also give orders around the Arrowhead?
Mr. Kessler. No, I never saw him give any orders. Like I would
be working and then I would look up, I would see him walk in, and
then I wouldn't pay any attention to him.
Mr. Halley. Did he go into the office?
Mr. Kessler. That I don't know either.
Mr. Halley. He was around the place ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, I saw him up there. I saw him in the dining
room.
Mr. Halley. He didn't behave like an ordinary customer, did he ?
Mr. Kessler. In the dining room he would be sitting there watching
the floor show, and we would watch it from the back. I could see him
sitting at the table watching the floor show. Then occasionally I
would see him in the casino, the game room.
Mr. Halley. What would he be doing in the casino ?
Mr. Kessler. He would just walk in. If I was at a particular
wheel which faced the door, whenever I had a chance I would look up
if I had the time, I would see customers walk in. I would see Mr.
Lansky walk in.
Mr. Halley. You don't know what he did there ?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How many weeks did you work at Saratoga?
Mr. Kessler, It might have been — it was as long as the racing, which
I think is about 28 days, about 4 Aveeks.
Mr. Halley. That was a wide open operation at the Arrowhead in
Saratoga, wasn't it?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. The doors were open, and it was no problem for the
public about getting in at all ?
Mr. Kessler. Not that I know of, sir. They just seemed to walk in.
Mr. Halley. After you worked at Saratoga did you work at the
baby-carriage factory ?
Mr. Kessler. Then I went back to Jersey; yes, sir. I worked in
Jersey again. That is also on Route 6.
Mr. Halley. With whom were you there ?
Mr. Kessler. You mean who I worked with ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Kessler. Mr. Schafer was there and Alec was there.
Mr. Halley. Was Catena there ?
Mr. Kessler. No ; I never saw him, but INIr. Lynch was there.
Mr. Halley. He was in the office '^ "
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Halley. How about Moretti, Salvatore, or Willie ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes ; I used to see — that is Solly, isn't it ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Kessler. Yes ; I used to see him up there. He used to come in.
Mr. Halley. Did he give orders ?
Mr. Kessler. No ; I never saw him give orders. He never gave me
an order. I don't know what orders he would give, but personally ho
never said anything to me.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211
Mr. Hallet. He was around the place ?
Mr. Kessler, Yes, sir ; I used to see him around.
Mr. Halley. You would get these withholding statements with
various names on them. Did you ever ask anybody what they were
doing on them?
Mr. Kessler. No. I just took it for granted that that was the name
of the company. From my experience working around gambling
places, the importance of a name never seems to come up.
Mr. Hallet. When you had a withholding statement from 1948
showing the name J. Doto on it, you knew who Doto was ?
Mr. Kessler. I did from the newspapers when he used to get write-
ups.
Mr. Hallet. You know that was Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Kessler. I knew that Joe Adonis was an alias.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever ask anybody if Adonis was connected
with the gambling operation ?
Mr. Kessler. No. As far as I knew, Mr. Lynch worked in the
office and Tony would be around on the floor. He would give orders.
He would tell you if he wanted, vou know, something done, this or
that.
Mr. Hallet. Was Guarini around?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. He also gave orders ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. The people who gave orders, then, had Lynch and
Guarini ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. They seemed to be the bosses.
Mr. Hallet. Alex Goldfine was also there ?
Mr. Kessler. He was there in charge of the help. He was like a
hired man.
Ml'. Hallet. You understood that Lynch and Guarini were owners
as contrasted to Goldfine, who was an employee ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes ; very much so.
Mr. Hallet. After the carriage factory you went down to the Club
Bohemian ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. And Green Acres ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Wlio hired you down there?
Mr. Kessler. 1 think first I went to work at the Boheme, Mr. Lansky,
Jake or Jack
Senator Tobet. Is that the same Lansky we had this morning ?
Mr. Hallet. His brother.
Then did you work at Green Acres too ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. I went over to the Green Acres. That was with
Sam Brant.
Mr. Hallet. Did you also handle the roulette?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Then you returned to New Jersey the next summer,
the summer of 1939, and you worked at the Palisades place in 1949 ?
Mr. KJESSLER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Who was there ?
Mr. Kessler. Mr. Greeno and Mr. Lynch.
Mr. Hallet. The same two people again ?
212 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Did you see Adonis there ?
Mr. Kessler. No, I didn't see him there. I saw him — I used to see
him in that other place.
Mr. Halley. Lodi ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, the one on Route 6, farther out.
Mr. Halley. During what year did you work at the Lodi place?
Mr. Kessler. I think that was in the latter part of 1947.
Mr. Halley. The Palisades place closed at the end of 1949, is that
right?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you work until it closed ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Or was it still going ?
Mr. Kessler. I was there at the finish.
Mr. Halley. That was about the end of 1949 ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Then you all went down to Florida, is that right ?
Mr. Kessler. No. I stayed around in New York for a while, and
then I went down to Florida to go to work.
Mr. Halley. Wliere did you work in Florida?
Mr. Kessler. This past winter?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Kessler. In Broward County at a small place called the Beach
Club.
Mr. Halley. Wliere is it?
Mr. Kessler. That was on the ocean road.
Mr. Halley. Is that owned by Carl Smith ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Did anybody else have any part of it ?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir. I understood that he was the boss. In fact,
he was the only one who was ever there, because it was just a small
place.
Mr. Halley. Wliat would you call a small place ?
]Mr. Kessler. Two wheels and one crap table. That is considered
small.
Mr. Halley. Can you give the committee some idea of the amount
of money that passed at, let's take a place like Lodi. How many crap
tables and how many wheels were there ?
Mr. Kessler. In Lodi I think there were four wheels and two crap
tables.
Mr. Halley. You worked at a wheel ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. So you would be most familiar with that ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. The stakes were a minimum of 25 cents for women and
50 cents for men ; is that right ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, and you could bet up to $10, which was very
seldom.
Mr. Halley. Did you get a rather big play on these wheels?
Mr. Kessler. Well, not the kind of play that you get at a resort.
Mr. Halley. Did all the wheels operate evei'y night ?
Mr. Kessler. No.
Mr. Halley. On what nights did all four wheels operate?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 213
Mr. Kessler. I would say like a Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday.
Mr. Halley. And the other nights how many wheels operated?
Mr. Kj:ssler. Sometimes two, sometimes just one.
Mr. Halley. What would you say would be the total play over a
wheel on a Saturday night ?
Mr, Kessler. I don't know. We don't have any way of knowing
that. The game is going on, and then a player will sit down and he will
buy in some checks, let's say $10 worth of checks. Then the money
goes into a drawer. You keep on going and they buy in some more and
you throw the money in the drawer. As far as counting it that is
almost an impossibility.
Mr. Halley. Sitting at the table or standing behind it, how much
money would go in the drawer in the course of an evening?
Mr. Kessler. I would have no way of knowing that.
Mr. Halley. Roughly. You would be stuffing money in practically
all night, wouldn't you?
Mr. Kessler. Not necessarily. Sometimes they are lucky enough
to sit and play an hour and a half or so with their original buy, and
if they lose that they get up and walk away, and they are through.
Mr. Halley. Have you any estimate, would you say a thousand
dollars would be a fair amount at a table?
Mr. Kessler. No ; I don't think it took that much.
Mr. Halley. On any night? You wouldn't take in a thousand
dollars on any night?
Mr. Kessler. You mean my own table ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Kessler. I don't know. I would have to get an awful lot of
play.
Mr. Halley. That would be a big play?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. Say $10 buy-ins or $25 buy-ins, there have to be
an awful lot of buy-ins.
Mr. Halley. What is the point? Was the big money at the crap
tables rather than the roulette ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. From my way — from my own observation the
crap games are the games where they gamble.
Mr. Halley. That is where the money is.
Mr. Kessler. Yes. The wheels are women. In other words, they
sit there and will wait for their husband and lose $10 or $20 or $40.
Then they are through.
Mr. Halley. They try to string out the chips as long as possible ?
Mr. Kessler. That is right.
Mr. Halley, That is all I have, sir.
The Chairmak-. Any questions, Mr. Kostelanetz ?
Mr. Kostelanetz. No.
The Chairman. Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobey. Do you call yourself a dealer?
Mr, Kessler, Yes. sir.
Senator Tobey, You don't deal cards with roulette, do you? You
operate the roulette wheel.
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. That isn't a dealer, is it ? Do you call that a dealer ?
Mr. Kessler. If you want to be really class, you say croupier.
Senator Tobey. The question is, are those wheels run on the level?
Mr. EIessler. Oh, yes.
214 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Tobey. How does the management make anything on it
then?
Mr. Kessler. They figure a percentage.
Senator Tobey. They take off so much, like tlie mutuels?
Mr. IvESSLER. It figures the same way, your over-all play. There are
38 numbers on a wheel. You pay 35 to 1. If you get a play on all the
numbers, that 5549 percent must show. Of course, there is what they
call the hidden percentage, where a player won't figure to win as much
as he will lose. That is the hidden percentage.
Senator Tobey. Is it the usual thing for people to go the whole
evening maybe without making a cent on roulette ?
Mr. Kessler. You mean is it possible ?
Senator Tobey. Do many of them not make a cent a whole eve-
ning ?
Mr, Kessler. Oh, yes. A person might come in and play tonight
and lose their $20 and they might come in the next night or two nights
later, whichever they happen to come in, and lose again and they
might have a streak where they won't win anything for 3 or 4 plays.
Senator Tobey. You speak of going to these different places, and
there are other witnesses who have testified here. Does that justify
us in having the feeling that there is a pool account of employees,
dealers and others who are available for these different gambling
places around the country?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. In other words, they are the faithful, the good
employees and they have a list of them ?
Mr. Kessler. It runs this way : You make a reputation for yourself
of being honest.
Senator Tobey. Yes.
Mr. Kessler. By being honest you can get more work than if you
have a bad reputation. That also goes for customers. The customers
will come into a place and if they see dealers that they know, who
have worked in reputable gambling houses, they have more confidence
when they play rather than if they walk into a place and see a lot of
strangers.
Senator Tobey. That is understandable. That is human nature r
yes.
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Senator Tobey. You have been down at Jimmie LaFontaine's and
worked there, you said.
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Jimmie never was raided while you worked there ?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Do you know why it wasn't ?
Mr. Kessler. No.
Senator Tobey. Did he buv protection, in vour judgment?
Mr. Kessler. What?
Senator Tobey. Did he buy protection and get it ?
Mr. Kessler. That I don't know.
Senator Tobey. Did you ever hear anything that he did?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir. They never talk to the employees about that.
Senator Tobey. One other question : Did you ever see any Mem-
bers of Congress in there playing?
I
I ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 215
jNIr. Kessler. No, sir. I don't think I wonlcl know them if I saw
them.
Senator Tobey. How many people wonld attend Jimmie's place in
an evening?
JNIr. Kessler. In my particular job on the wheel, the wheel was
just open, like we would open the wheel at 1 o'clock in the afternoon,
and we would usually be finished at 6 or 7 o'clock at night. There
seemed to be a lull then and the wheel wouldn't operate at night. It
was crap gajues.
Senator Tobey. Was that located in Maryland or in the District?
Mr. Kessler. In Maryland.
Senator Torey. Just a little bit over the line.
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir. The line is right on that street there.
Senator Tobey. Jimraie died, didn't he?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. That is all.
Mr. Kostelanetz. Why haven't you worked since February?
Mr. Kj:ssler. There hasn't been any work. I keep thinking about
it all the time, as my wife does, that we are sorry we ever left Las
Vegas. We could have made our home out there where it is legal,
and it would be just like — well, it would be like \yorking in a store.
You go to sleep at night and you know the next night the place will
be open, which is always the constant fear in your mind when you
are working where it isn't legal, that you leave there that night
and you don't know whether it will be there the next night.
Mr. Halley. What was your salary at these different places?
Mr. Kessler. Wliat?
Mr. Halley. What was j^our salary ?
Mr. Kessler. My salary? In Florida the salary was $225 a week,
and here where you figure to work longer and more steady, $100 a
week. The reason they pay more money when you go to a resort is
that you are maintaining two residences. You have to keep your home
up where you left because you know you are going to be down in
Florida, you figure to be down there only about 3 months or 4 months
at the most. So you are paying rent down there and have your living
expenses and you are also maintaining a home.
Mr. Halley. What did they pay the operators ?
Mr. Kessler. When I was in Las Vegas I was the pit boss and I
got $40 a day.
Mr. Hali.ey. What is a pit boss ?
Mr. Kessler. They call it a pit boss out there. In the East they
would call it a floorman. I had charge of the wheels, floorman. I
was like an overseer to watch the dealers.
Mr. Halley. Why did you leave if you were getting $40 a day ?
Mr. Kessler. Well, everybody who was out there when I went out,
and then the place was sold. I really hadn't made many friends out
there when I went out because I just knew these fellows who went
out there. When they all left, my wife didn't have anyone out there,
and I guess she was getting lonesome for her folks here. So we
decided, well, we will come back, thinking, or, in fact, I was practi-
cally told that any time I wanted to come back by other bosses out
there in other places, because I had a pretty good reputation out there.
Mr. Halley. Who got you the job at the Flamingo ?
216 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. KJESSLER. Manny Schaf er.
Mr. Halley. Did he know Siegel ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. He got the job through Bugsy Siegel.
Mr. Hallev. When did you first meet Bugsy Siegel?
Mr. Kessi^r. When I was at the Flamingo.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Bugsy Siegel back here in the East?
Mr. Kessler. No, I never saw him around here.
Mr. Halley. Were you there when Siegel was killed ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey, Whose home was it in ?
Mr. Kessler. Which — you mean in Las Vegas?
Senator Tobey. Where Bugsy was killed.
Mr. Kessler. From what I read in the paper, a girl by the name
of
Senator Tobey. Virginia Hill ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Did you ever see her ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. I would see her around the Flamingo.
Senator Tobey. She was there a good deal, was she ?
Mr. Kessler. Not too often.
Senator Tobey. Was he with her, was Bugsy with her when she
was there ?
Mr. Kessler. I would see them walking together or something
like that.
Senator Tobey. Who were her other intimates ?
Mr. Kessler. I didn't see any others. She was mostly there alone
or with another girl. There would be another girl.
Senator Tobey. That is in Las Vegas ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. What is the name of the place ?
Mr. Kessler. The Flaminiro.
Senator Tobey. Was she good look
me:
Mr. Kessler. Well, she was, I guess what you would call a type.
Senator Tobey. She marriecl a man named Hauser ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, that is what I read, a Norwegian or something.
Mr. Halley. When Siegel was murdered, the management of the
Flamingo changed immediatel3^ didn't it?
Mr. Kessler. No, it didn't change until we left. I mean, I guess
they were negotiating or something. The running of the place just
kept on running. Mr. Schafer was the floorman there. He had
charge of the casino. It just seemed to run, although we had heard
rumors that tlie place was going to change hands. L^sually those
places when they change hands they bring in all new help.
INIr. Halley. You heard that before Siegel was killed?
Mr. Kessler. No, this was the talk afterward, that the place was
going to be sold.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever find out why Siegel had to send East
for a crew to run the Fhimingo?
Mr. Kessler. I think there were only myself and Manny, and I
think about two or three other fellows wlio were out there from the
East. The rest were mostly help in Las Vegas because there was
always a tremendous lot of fellows coming in and going out.
IVIr. Halley. You were the top people who were running the floor,
is that right ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 217
Mr. Kessler. I had nothing to do with the floor. Mine was just
the wheel. JVIr. Schafer had charge of the floor.
Mr. Halley. Then the two people in charge of the Flamingo were
you and Schafer, is that nght ^
Mr. IvESSLER. No, no.
Mr. Halley. You had the wheels. That is gambling, isn't it?
Mr. IvESSLER. Yes. But I had no say. I had the say over the
dealers, but not the actual game itself. I had nothing to do with the
money, or anything like that.
Mr. Halley. I understand that. Schafer was in charge of the
whole thing, is that right ?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. There were two shifts out there, eventually it
wound up three shifts; three 8-hour shifts around the clock. Mr.
Schafer couldn't be there all the time, so he would be there from
8 o'clock in the evening until 4 o'clock. Sometimes in the afternoon
he would drop in and look around. Other than that, Mr. Siegel was
there almost all the time because he lived in the hotel.
Mr. Hali.ey. He actually supervised?
Mr. Kessler. Yes. He was the boss.
Senator Tobey. Tell me how far was this — did Virginia own the
home ? Was it her house ?
Mr. Kessler. That I don't know. According to the papers I think
she rented it from somebody.
Senator Tobey. How far was that from Las Vegas ?
Mr. Kessler. Three hundred miles, I would say. At least it is 300
miles to Los Angeles.
Senator Tobey. Her home was in Los Angeles, was it ?
Mr. Kessler. In Beverly Hills ; yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. People think nothing of driving down 300 miles
to go down there ?
Mr. Kessler. Who?
Senator Tobey. The gamblers think nothing of that 300-mile trip ?
Mr. Kessler. Oh, well, if they took a trip like that they usually
stay for the week end.
Senator Tobey. I. see.
The Ciiair3ian. They usually come by plane, too, don't they?
Mr. Kessler. Yes, sir ; and train.
The Chairman. Mr. Kessler, isn't there some kind of club or asso-
ciation or union that you gambling operators belong to where you can
be found ?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir.
The Chairman. You don't have any kind of organization at all?
Mr. Kessler. No, sir. While I was out in Las Vegas I heard a story
that there was some fellow who wanted to organize the dealers and
make a union, but the dealers wouldn't go for it because you can work
in a gambling house out there for your entire life if you do your work
and don't steal, but if you steal, there isn't any union or anybody who
is going to help you keep your job after that.
The Chairman. Anything else, gentlemen?
Mr. Halley. Nothing else.
The Chairman. That is all, thank you, Mr. Kessler.
Mr. Kessler. We will return your papers to you.
68958— 51— pt. 7 15
218 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
O. K., thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Oreccliio, do you solemnly swear the testimony
you will give this committe will be the truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
JNlr. Orecciiio. 1 do.
TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL ORECCHIO, FAIRVIEW, N. J.
The Chairman. What is your full name ?
]Mr. Orecciiio. Michael Orecchio.
]\Ir. Halley. Your address, please?
Mr. Orecciiio. 173 Anderson Avenue, Fairview.
Mr. Hallet. What is your position ?
Mr. Orecchio. I am chief of the county detectives in the office of
the county prosecutor.
Mr. Halley. For Bergen County ?
Mr. Orecchio. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Were you served with a subpena to bring with you
certain records ?
Mr. Orecchio. I didn't get the subpena until ISIr. Winne called me.
I was in Colorado. However, one of my lieutenants had a subpena
and I presumed that mine was the same, so I brought the records that
were requested in that subpena.
Mr. Halley. Were you at the convention, the International Asso-
ciation of Chiefs of Police ?
Mr. Orecchio. That is right. I flew in this morning at 2 : 30.
Mr. Halley. What records have you produced ?
Mr. Orecchio. My income taxes from 1945.
Mr. Halley. Anything else ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have all canceled checks and bank balances, what-
ever was asked in the subpena.
Mr. Halley. Would you turn them over to the investigator for
the committee ?
How long have you been chief of police ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have been chief of county detectives for about
6 years.
Mr. Halley. During that time wdiat has been your record with
respect to gambling in Bergen County ?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't quite get the question, sir.
Mr. Halley. What has been the condition in Bergen County with
reference to gambling ?
Mr. Orecciiio. I would say that the condition in Bergen County,
considering its size and complexion, is about the same as it is every-
where else.
Senator Tobey. That isn't a good enough answer. It is too general.
Mr. Orecchio. I don't quite understand the question.
Senator Tobey. That isn't a good enough answer to me as one mem-
ber of the committee. It is too general. We are interested in Bergen
County. We have cases of gambling there and you are chief of the
county detectives and you dismiss the thing by saying it is the same
as everywhere else. That doesn't suit me.
Mr. Halley. To your knowledge has there been gambling in Bergen
County ?
I
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 219
Mr. Orecciiio. To my knowledge there has been gambling in Bergen
County, and in all those cases that I have knowledge of, there have
been people arrested and tried.
Mr. Halley. Did yon have knowledge of the operation at Lodi?
Was that during your tenure of office ?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't know what case you are referring to, but
if it is the case that the newspapers are talking about, it was during
my tenure, yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you have knowledge of it ?
Mr. Orecchio. We had knowledge to the extent that we tried a
man and he is now in State prison.
Mr. Halley. That is Guarini ?
Mr. Orecchio. That is Guarini ; yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Would you tell the committee a little bit about the
investigation, just briefly, not any more detailed than necessary, and
the conviction of Guarini?
Mr. Orecchio. The conviction of Guarini in the Lodi case came
about as a result of information that we obtained in the Stark case.
Mr. Halley. The Stark case was prosecuted here in New York
State.
Mr. Orecchio. That is right. As a result of that, certain names
came up in that case, one was
Mr. Halley. Did Lynch 's name come up?
Mr. Orecchio. No. Kitty, Frank — I have the names here. I will
read them off. That is Milton Frank and Kitty Klein. When they
were arrested they implicated Anthony Guarini. And Anthony
Guarini surrendered himself and was tried. Rather he pleaded
guilty and was sentenced to 1 to 3 years in the State prison.
Mr. Halley. What was the sentence?
Mr. Orecchio. One to three years.
Mr. Halley. For what offense?
INIr. Orecchio. Maintaining a disorderly house.
Mr. Halley. Did you make any effort to find out if Guarini had
associates in that business ?
Mr. Orecchio. We certainly did.
Mr. Halley, Did you find out whether he did have any ?
Mr. Orecchio. He refused, if he did, to tell us about it. We ques-
tioned him for several hours,
ISIr, Halley. Did you ever ask the district attorney in New York
County for any checks that Stark cashed ?
Mr. Orecchio. Mr. Woody, the prosecutor, handled that part of it.
Mr. Halley, You never in your investigation tried to find out
that ?
Mr. Orecchio. I am only in law enforcement and not the trial part,
Mr. PIalley. You are in the investigative end, are you not i
Mr. Orecchio. That is correct.
Mr. Halley. In the course of your investigation did you ever
attemi)t to see any of the checks which formed the basis of the Stark
prosecution ?
Mr. Orecchio. We Avent a little further than that, sir. We re-
quested and paid for an entire transcript of the Stark trial.
Mr. Halley. Didn't the Stark transcript show other names? Did,
for instance, the name of James Lynch come up ?
220 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJMERCE
Mr. Orecchio. As being part owner of this place, sir ?
Mr. Halley. In any yvny whatsoever.
Mr. Orecchio. I don't recall. It was between 2 and 3 inches in
thickness. I don't remember everything in it.
Mr. Halley. Do you know James Lynch ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir. I know him by reputation, yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Does the name of Joe Doto come up, alias Joe Adonis,
in the course of your investigation ?
Mr. Orecchio. In the Lodi case ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Orecchio. I don't think it did, sir.
Mr. Halley. You never heard of Joe Doto in connection with the
Lodi operation ?
Mr. Orecchio. Not in the Max Stark case.
Mr. Halley. You investigated, didn't you, independently of the
Max Stark case?
Mr. Orecchio. We investigated as a result. Of course the place
was closed at that time, sir.
Mr. Halley. By the time you got it, it was closed.
Mr. Orecchio. Sure.
Mr. Halley. You never heard of Joe Doto being connected with
that at all ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, I didn't.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Doto ?
Mr. Orecchio. I know him by reputation only. That is all.
Mr. Halley. You have never seen him ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have never met him.
Mr. Halley. Did you hear whether Salvatore Moretti, Solly
Moretti, was connected with the Lodi place ?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't recall, sir. I would have to have the tran-
script. I don't recall.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever investigate Salvatore Moretti?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes, I did, about 4 years ago.
Mr. Halley. In connection with what ?
Mr. Orecchio. I investigated the place called Duke's Tavern up in
Cliffside Park. When we went in there we found the two Moretti
brothers in the place. As a matter of fact, it was the first time I had
seen him, and it was the last time I ever saw him. Solly and Willie
Moretti.
Mr. Halley. You say you have never seen them on any other occa-
sion?
Mr. Orecchio. I have never seen the men on any other occasion.
Mr. Halley. Except on one occasion when you went into Duke's
place ?
Mr. Orecchio. That is right. During the investigation we investi-
gated five or six places, and this was one of them, and we walked in
there. I think we were investigating for bookmaking. They were
seated in there. We asked them who they were and they gave their
names.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Gerald Catena ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You never saw him ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 221
Mr. Orecchio. Never ssnv him.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether he had any connection with the
Lodi operation ?
Mr. Orecchio. I do not, sir ; no.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever investigate ?
Mr. Orecchio. Did I ever investigate Catena ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Orecchio. I don't believe we ever did. We know he is not a
Bergen County man and never operated in Bergen County.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever ask who filed the income-tax returns for
the Lodi operation ?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't believe my office did, sir, but that again is in
the legal department. I wouldn't handle that.
Mr. Halley. Did you make any attempt to find the records for the
Lodi operation ?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't know what records you speak of, sir. I am
sorry.
Mr. Halley. It was a business, was it not ?
Mr. Orecchio. Wliat do you mean, it was a business ?
Mr. Halley. Wliat went on at Lodi ? Wliat did you send Guarini
to jail for?
Mr. Orecchio. We sent him to jail for maintaining a disorderly
house. Pie testified that he was conducting there a floating crap game,
a hit-and-run game.
Mr. Halley. Did you make any attempt to find out whether it was
a hit-and-run game?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes, we did.
Mr. Halley. What did you do ?
Mr. Orecchio. When we got information from New York as a
result of the Max Stark case that this house was supposed to be operat-
ing in Lodi, we got hold of the Lodi police and we went over there, and
for about four blocks each side of this garage we questioned every-
one to determine if there had been any activity as mentioned in the
Mux Stark case in that area. Everyone said that they knew nothing
about it.
Mr. Halley. Did you attempt to find any emploj-ee of the place?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes, we did.
Mr. Halley. Did you succeed ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You found no employee ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever ask Mr. Logan's office for any help ?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes ; Mr. Woody did that many times.
Mr, Halli'^y. And got no leads from Mr. Logan?
Mr. Orecchio. I can't answer for Mr. Woody, but it was never
turned over to me. I am sure it was not given to him.
Mr. Halley. You as the investigator got no leads out of that record
that helped you find any employee ?
Mr. Orecchio. No. sir.
Mr. Halley. Didn't the record itself say that James Lynch had
endorsed practically all these checks ?
Mr. Orecchio. I believe that was in the record ; yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you call James Lynch in for questioning ?
222 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Orecchio. I don't recall now whether we did or not, I couldn't
say without the office records.
Mr. Halley. If you did, it left no impression at the time?
Mr. Orecchio, I handle over 2,000 cases a year in my office, and I
just can't here and now, without any record — I am sure you will appre-
ciate that, sir, that I just can't on this one case give you all the detail
without the office records,
Mr, Halley, That was a pretty important case; was it not?
Mr, Orecchio. It was an imi)ortant case. Any case in Bergen
County that is of this nature is important to us.
Mr. Halley. When you arrested Guarini did you question him?
Mr. Orecchio, I certainly did,
Mr, Halley, Did you ask him if he kept any books of account or
records ?
Mr. Orecchio. Mr. Guarini refused to talk, sir. He was ques-
tioned by Mr, Depew, the first assistant prosecutor,
Mr, Halley, You say he stated he was having a hit-and-run crap
game. He gave some testimony,
Mr, Orecchio, I meant, sir, beyond that he refused to say. He
said that is my game, "I am telling you that is my game. It was a
floating crap game. Here I am," and that is that.
Mr. Halley. You made no effort to find out if there were any rec-
ords of income-tax payments, who filed them, what accountant did the
work, and nothing of that kind ?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't believe an investigation by our office of his
income tax was made ; no, sir. That again we will have to check with
Mr. Woody and the legal department.
Mr, Halley, Isn't it a fact that you were advised by Vincent
O'Connor, of Logan's office, about the Lodi crap game in August of
1948 ?
Mr, Orecchio. I was not advised, sir; no,
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vincent O'Connor ?
Mr. Orecchio. I met him twice.
Mr, Halley, About the time that the Stark case was tried ?
Mr, Orecchio, I do not recall whether it was at that time or not, sir."
Mr, Halley, You say you don't know Willie Moretti?
Mr. Orecchio, I said I knew Willie Moretti. I know those charac-
ters that you speak of by reputation. That is my job, to know these
people,
Mr. Halley. But you don't know him personally ?
Mr, Orecchio, I saw him once in my life. That is all.
Mr. Halley. Are you a man of substantial means ?
Mr. Orecchio. That all depends on what you consider substantial]
means.
Mr. Halley. Where do you live?
Mr. Orecchio. Where do I live?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Orecchio. I live in an apartment house.
Mr. Halley. Whereabouts?
Mr. Orecchio, In Fairview.
Mr, Halley, Fairview.
Mr, Orecchio, Yes,
INIr, Halley, You have an automobile?
Mr, Orecchio, Yes, a county car.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 223
Mr. Halley. You use a county automobile?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You have a man to drive it, I suppose.
Mr. Orecchio. I drive myself most of the time.
Mr. Halley. The rest of the time you have a man to drive you ?
Mr. Orecchio. If I am going out on an investigation, a man from
the office drives me.
Mr. Halley. What is your income as chief of the county detectives?
Mr. Orecchio. As chief of county detectives, my salary is $4,700.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any other income in the last 5 years?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes, I have.
Mr. Halley. Wliat is that ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have several incomes. I have an income from a
real estate and insurance office that I have had for 23 years. I used to
be secretary or congressional aide in Washington to Congressman
Frank C. Osmers, Jr. Maybe the two Senators might remember him.
The Chairman. Congressional what ? Were secretary of what ?
Mr. Orecchio. We called them congressional aides. Senator, district
secretary to the Congressman Frank C. Osmers, Jr.
Mr. Halley. Who are your partners in the real estate and insurance
business ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have no partners.
Mr. Halley. It is your own personal business?
Mr. Orecchio. That is right. Incidentally, I left off there in the
middle of the sentence. I want to continue that.
Mr. Halley. Surely, go right ahead.
Mr. Orecchio. I don't know.
The Chairman. You said you were district secretary for Congress-
man Frank C. Osmers, Jr.
Mr. Orecchio. That is right. I have an income from that of $12,000
that the Congressman owed me in back salary. At one time I was
in the plumbing and heating business. I am recognized in the trade
as a domestic engineer. I was associated with my brother, and about
3 years ago, about S^/i years ago, we separated, and I sold materials
that we had in the warehouse, which went toward my income amount-
ing to about $7,000.
Senator Tobey. Who appointed you to the chief of county detectives ?
Mr. Orecchio. Mr. AVinne.
Senator Tobey. What is his position ?
Mr. Orecchio. I didn't hear you.
Senator Tobey. AVliat is his position ?
Mr. Orecchio. He is the prosecutor.
Senator Tobey. State or county ?
Mr. Orecchio. He is the county prosecutor.
]Mr. Halley. Have you filed amended income-tax returns for any
of the years that you have brought ?
Mr. Orecchio. I didn't get the first part of your question.
Mr. Halley. Have you filed amended income-tax returns for any of
the years from 1946 to 1950?
Mr. Orecchio. Well, I have filed for all those years, but the book-
keeper takes care of that. Whatever the income was, he took care of it.
Mr. Halley. The question is. Have you amended your income-tax
returns for any of those years ?
224 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, Orecchio. I think once or twice, sir, but I don't remember what
year, not without looking.
ISIr, Halley. Would looking at these records help ?
Mr, Orecchio, I don't know because the work sheets aren't there.
Mr, Halley, Where are the work sheets ?
Mr. Orecchio, They are in the hands of the accountant,
Mr. Halley, You haven't brought in any amended returns, have
you?
Mr. Orecchio. No, I haven't. That is all I have, what I brought
here.
Mr, Halley. Under what circumstances did you amend any income-
tax return?
Mr, Orecchio, I don't remember the circumstances, sir, but I think
1 year it went over the estimated income, I am sure that is what you
are asking, isn't it? If it goes over the estimated income, you have
to amend it.
Mr, Halley. That is one form of amendment.
Mr, Orecchio. That is the only one. I don't know of any others.
Mr. Halley. You have in mind amending the estimated return ?
Mr. Orecchio. That is right.
Mr. Halley. The question was. Have you ever amended a final
return ?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Halley. You would know if you had done it, would you not?
Mr. Orecchio. I think I would; yes, I don't believe I have,
Mr, Halley, You have not had occasion to amend the final income
tax return ?
Mr, Orecchio, If I have, it would show in the record, sir,
Mr. Halley. How long have you had this insurance and real-estate
business ?
Mr. Orecchio, 24 years,
Mr. Halley, Who handles it for you now ?
Mr. Orecchio. Since 1946 my boy, who was in the Marines, came
out and he is working for me. He handles it.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any other employees there ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have a secretary, yes, and I have a salesman, real-
estate salesman.
Mr. Halley. Do you devote any of your time to it?
Mr. Orecchio. Not too much. Very little. I can't.
Mr. Halley. What other income have you ? Do you own any real
estate yourself ?
Mr. Orecchio. No ; I own this house that I live in, two-family and
one-story apartment house.
Mr. Halley. '\^nien did you purchase that ?
Mr. Orecchio. I purchased that 14 years ago.
Mr. Halley. You have owned it ever since ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have owned it ever since ; j^es, sir.
Mr, Halley. Have you any other real estate?
Mr. Orecchio. I have a couple of lots. They don't amount to any-
thing, about $4,000,
Mr. Halley. What would you say was your net worth in terms of
cash in the bank or in a box ?
Mr. Orecchio, You mean as of right now ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 225
Mr. Orecchio. That is hard to say without the records. I would
say around 25 or 30 thousand dollars.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any other cash in the form of bills and
currency ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have a safe deposit box.
Mr. Halley. Do you keep currency in that box?
ISIr. Orecchio. Surely.
Mr. Halley. How much do you have in that box ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have $10,000 in that box.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any particular occasion for needing that
sum of money in cash ?
Mr. Orecchio. It all depends. We like to keep cash on hand, par-
ticularly if we have a piece of property that looks good to us that we
want to buy we make quick use of the cash, and we do it. As a matter
of fact, we haven't done it. I don't think we have touched that. I
haven't. I say we. I haven't touched it in I guess a year and a half
or 2 years.
Senator Tobey. Could you draw the cash quicker than you could
draw a check ?
Mr. Orecchio. Not necessarily, sir. It is merely my way of doing
business, that is all.
Mr. Halley. How do you accumulate
Mr. Orecchio. I have a cash account. I have an account. I have
a checking account. Here are all my canceled checks. I have a sav-
ings account. It is all open. It is all on the record.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any cash in any other place but your
safety deposit box ?
Mr. Orecchio. No ; I haven't.
Mr. Halley. Does your wife own any property ?
Mr. Orecchio. My wife has no property.
Mr. Halley. I notice here some income from a beauty parlor.
Mr. Orecchio. Oh, yes ; a couple of years ago I took a share in a
beauty parlor, and that income doesn't amount to much, as you can
see, a couple of hundred dollars a year.
Mr. Halley. How much did that part of the beauty parlor cost ?
Mr. Orecchio. $2,500.
Mr. Halley. What was your income prior to your becoming chief
of detectives ?
Mr. Orecchio. For how long a period, sir ?
Mr. Halley. Let us see. When did you become chief of detectives ?
Mr. Orecchio. April of 1944.
Mr. Halley. Prior to that, did you have any public office?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes. I was chief investigator for the Bergen
County Board of Elections.
Mr. Halley. For how long ?
Mr. Orecchio. I think about 5 years, sir ; 4 or 5 years.
Mr. Halley. Prior to that, did you hold any public office ?
Mr. Orecchio. No ; I did not.
Mr. Halley. You have not brought your returns prior to 1945 ?
Mr. Orecchio. No. As I say, I went by what the subpena read for
Lieutenant Guidetti.
Mr. Halley. That would be right. In 1945, I notice your income
from your outside business was $3,264. Is that approximately right ?
226 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIMERCE
Mr. Orecciiio. Whatever is on there, sir. I can't remember.
Mr. Halley. It varies considerably from year to year?
Mr. Orecciiio. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. For instance, in 19-1:8, it apparently was somewhat
larger. It seems to be $5,837.
Mr. Orecchio. The reason for that is the real estate end of it. If
we sell more property, naturally we get more commissions.
Mr. Halley. What sort of customers do you have for your insur-
ance business?
INIr. Orecciiio. The general run of clientele, automobile, fire, mer-
cantile, marine. We handle every type of insurance.
Mr. Halley. Do you have many businessmen in the community who
are your customers ?
Mr. Orecciiio. Yes; we have.
Mr. Halley. Do you feel that with an active business of that
kind, you can devote enough time to your work as chief of detectives?
Mr.' Orecchio. I am giving it hardly any time, as I stated a few
moments ago. I can't. My boy takes care of that. Most of my time,
as a matter of fact all of my time, I have to devote to my duties as
chief of the county detectives.
Mr. Halley. This committee has been hearing evidence for 2 days
about open and notorious operations at Lodi, at the place called the
carriage factory, at several other locations, from 1945 right up to the
end of 1949. Apparently the only place that you prosecuted at all is
the one that grew out of the New York indictment of Max Stark.
The only person 3^ou prosecuted there was Anthony Guarini, although
the eviclence was not at all so confined, but he had several partners.
Have you any explanation to offer as to why your office was not aware
of these conditions and did nothing about them ?
Mr. Orecchio. May I take a moment, gentlemen, to make the posi-
tion of my office clear first? I think we could get a better picture.
The office of the prosecutor, who is known as the prosecutor of the
pleas, is not a police agency. That was made very emphatic by the
prosecutor. The job of policing primarily belongs to the local police.
In Bergen County, an area of 500 square miles, with 70 cities and
numicipalities, 64 organized police departments, you can readily ap-
preciate that it would be a physical impossibility for the prosecutor's
office to police, when I have 8 detectives and 6 investigators.
There are 800 policemen in the county, local policemen, who do
that job. Our job is to assist. We are the technicians. If the local
police need help, they come to us, and we give them that help.
We have experts in every field. My work is criminology. We have
experts in ballistics, and so on and so forth. That is primarily our
job, not that of policing.
You also have another agency policing Bergen County. The Ber-
gen County police department polices Bergen County. You have
another agency in the attorney general, who is here, and he can bear
me out that the State police department polices Bergen County. You
have another agency that polices Bergen County, the ABC, the alco-
holic beverage commission polices Bergen County.
Let us get ourselves straight on one thing, gentlemen. We are not
the police of the county. We present cases to the grand jury. We try
those cases, and we try the appeals. We render assistance to any
local police department that wants it.
ORGANIZED CREME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 227
Leave it off there for a moment, and I will answer your question,
sir, by saying- this is not the only case in Bergen County that has been
prosecuted for gambling. There have been many cases of gambling
prosecuted successfully in Bergen County. When I say "many," I
don't mean hundreds, but there have been many cases. The arrests
originally were either made by the local police, or they were made by
my office. There were many raids instigated out of my office by me.
The records in our office will show that.
So it isn't true that this is the only case, and that this case came to
us as a result of the New York police or the New York district attor-
ney's office bringing it to our attention, because as a matter of fact,
gentlemen, in law enforcement it is good practice, it is common prac-
tice, for the police of one State, of one jurisdiction, to give assistance
to another. We do it in our investigations. If we find out that there
is something of interest to New York City, we turn it over, and as a
result of that they may make an arrest. That is the way it w^orks.
That is common police practice. It is the best form. That happens
all the time.
But I don't want — just a minute, please. I don't want to leave the
impression that no arrests are made in Bergen County or no cases
tried in Bergen County unless an outside jurisdiction comes in and
makes that case for us. That is absolutely an erroneous impression,
and I want to clear it on the record right away.
Mr. Halley. Right at that point, what we are really trying to find
out is why, when you make arrests in Bergen County, do you steer
clear of people like Joe Adonis, Salvatore Moretti, Jerry Catena,
James Rutkin, James Lynch, and Arthur Longano ?
Mr. Orecchio. Mr. Counsel, let me tell you something, and the rest
of the people around this table. I am one man that doesn't steer clear
of anybody.
Mr. Haleey. How could you have missed these people when the
Lodi operation w^as called to your attention ?
Mr. Orecchio. I may add, when it comes to prosecution, I will prose-
cute anyone if the evidence I can get on them will stand up in court.
Mr. Haeley. Could we stick to concrete facts, and let's assume your
good intentions. The concrete fact is that Guarini was indicted and
pleaded guilty. "Wlien did Guarini plead guilty?
Mr. Orecchio. I have "Sentenced April 5, 1950," but I don't know
when he pleaded guilty. I was not given that record. He was sen-
tenced on April 5, 1950, this year.
]\Tr. Haeley. Do you know when he was indicted ?
Mr. Orecchio. Offhand, may I say about a month before that?
That is the best recollection I have of it.
Mr. Haleey. In your efforts to investigate that matter, didn't you
first learn about it in 1948?
Mr. Orecchio. Do you mean that there was a complaint in 1948 on
this particular premise?
Mr. Haeley. Didn't the Max Stark situation break in 1948?
Mr. Orecchio. Oh, no; I don't think so. No; there was a lapse of
2 years, I am sure of that. I wish I had the records here. I haven't
got them, gentlemen.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't the first information from Hogan's office in
1948?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't know what information you are referring to,
sir.
228 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. The information that they had found these checks
being cashed by Max Stark.
Mr. Orecciiio. In 194S ^
Mr. Halley. Yes, in August. You see, they caught up ^Yith Stark
in 1948.
Mr. Orecciiio. I can't give you the dates witliout the records, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long did your investigation of Guarini take?
Mr. Orecchio. The actual time taken, consumed by that investiga-
tion, again, sir, I would have to have the record. I can't remember
whether it was a week, 2 weeks, a month, 3 months, or what.
Mr. Halley. When did you get back from Denver i
Mr. Orecciiio. I got back last night from Denver.
Mr. Halley. xlnd you have had no time since then to check the
records ?
Mr. Orecciiio. I went to bed this morning at 3 : 30, and I was up
at 6 : 30 to be here this morning,
Mr. Halley. You didn't ask any of your staff?
Mr. Orecciiio. My staff is off today. The office is closed.
Mr. Halley. This is in the nature of an unusual situation?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir. I am giving you an answer. There was
no one in the office this morning.
Mr. Halley. Had you asked your chief assistant to meet you here
with some records to refresh your memory so you could show a proper
respect for a Senate committee, you might have been in a position to
testify about this.
Mr. Orecchio. Had I known, sir, that those were the records, Mr.
Winne would have asked me to bring them over.
Mr. Halley. You couldn't have any doubt what this committee
was looking into ?
Mr, Orecchio. I didn't know, sir. I only went by what was on that
subpena. We have a stack of records over in the office. If you want me
to bring all the records over, we will cart them over. They are the
records of the prosecutor's office. They are open to inspection any
time.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever read in the newspapers, in the spring of
this year, that an accountant by the name of Goldstein had been sub-
penaed by Mr. Hogan's office, and that, in fact, this committee was
seeking to get Goldstein's records bearing on gambling in Jersey?
Mr. Orecciiio. I read that, sir, yes.
Mr. Halley. Did it occur to you to serve a subpena on that Gold-
stein ?
Mr. Orecciiio. That is not my job, sir. I am afraid you have my
job a little bit mixed up. I don't handle that end of it.
Mr. Halley. Let's see what end of it you handle. Not quite so fast,
please. Doesn't your office have the job of investigating, for prosecu-
tion, cases which have been brought up for indictment?
Mr. Orecchio. Within our county?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Orecchio. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And the Guarini case was in your office, is that right?
Mr. Orecchio. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You knew, or had access to knowledge, that Goldstein
was the accountant who handled matters for people of Guarini's type,
did you not ?
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229
Mr. Orecchio. That is right ; I did.
Mr. EUlley. In connection with trying to find out who were Guari-
ni's associates, it might have been possible to subpena some records
from Goldstein and find out from a man who could not have raised
any constitutional question, namely, the accountant.
Mr. Orecchio. Let me make my position clear again. I am not try-
ing to shirk any responsibility, Mr. Counselor, but again, I think that
my position in the office is not quite clear. When a case is in the proc-
ess of being tried, an assistant prosecutor will outline everything that
he wants in that case. Whatever he asks for, he gets. I cannot say
exactly what it is, without the records.
Mr. Halley. It may be that the buck should be passed. If so, to
whom should it be passed?
Mr. Orecchio. I will not pass the buck. I am not passing the buck.
I am merel}^ stating the facts, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you have some figures on that paper ?
Mr. Orecchio. No. This is the case.
Mr. Halley. The Guarini case?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Who prepared that for you ?
Mr. Orecchio. This was given to me by Mr. Winne.
Mr. Halley. When did he give you that ?
Mr. Orecchio. He gave me this this morning.
Mr. Halley. So he must have known you were coming over here
to testify about that case.
Mr. Orecchio. Mr. Winne called me in Denver and told me to be
here, I don't know whether he knew I was going to testify about this
case or not. This is not the only case on here.
Mr. Halley. What information do you have ?
Mr. Orecchio. Cases on here which we have tried.
Mr. Halley. What information do you have on that paper about
the Guarini case?
Mr. Orecchio. Particularly about the Guarini case ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Orecchio. The fact that Milton Frank and Kitty Klein were the
ones that were turned up by the Max Stark investigation ; that they
implicated Guarini; that Guarini and Klein and Frank were tried;
that Klein and Frank were given 3 months in the county jail, and
Guarini both 1 to 3 years in State's prison and a thousand-dollar fine;
the time of the sentence.
Mr. Halley. Did you see Mr. Winne when you came in last night ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Or this morning?
Mr. Orecchio. I saw him this morning.
Mr. Halley. Where did you see him, and when?
Mr. Orecchio. I saw him at his home.
Mr. Halley. And he had that statement ready for you ?
Mr. Orecchio. That is right.
jNIr. Hali>ey. At that time. Avere you able to refresh your recollection
about the other matters 1 have asked you about ?
_ Mr. Orecchio. I haven't refreshed my recollection on anything,
sir. I just came over here. I looked at Mr. Guidetti's subpena. I said,
"I guess this is what they want," packed it up in the office, and brought
it over. Here I am.
230 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You made no attempt to check on James Lyncli's name
Avliich appeared on all the checks i
Mr. Orecchio. When?
Mr. Halley. In connection with the Guarini investigation.
Mr. Okecchio. I can't say that I did not. because I think I did, sir.
If I had the records here, I think we could check that.
Mr. Halley. If you did, how could you have avoided indicting
Lynch ?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't handle the indictments. The prosecutor
handles that.
Mr. Halley. Did you present a memorandum of facts to the prose-
cutor ?
Mr. Orecchio. I cannot recall whether I did or not, sir.
Mr. Halley. Will you be able to check your records and give all
the information to this committee?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes, sir, absolutely. Our records are in good order.
Mr. Halley. Will you give all that information to Mr. Kostelanetz ?
Mr. Orecchio. I will be glad to.
Mr. Halley. Tomorrow. You can bring it here to Xew York for
him.
Mr. Orecchio. Fine.
Mr. Halley. That is all.
The Chairman. Just two questions. Do you have some insurance
on People's Express ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Catena?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Doto ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir. In the first place
The Chairman. Mr. Rutkin ?
Mr. Orecchio. In the first place, may I interrupt, please, I wouldn't
permit my office to insure any known racketeers or gamblers or any-
body like that.
The Chairman. So you do not think you have any on any known
racketeers ?
Mr. Orecchio. It isn't a question of not thinking. I make that veiy
explicit. We have no insurance on those people.
The Chairman. Mr. Goldstein?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir.
The Chairman. We are just looking for the person whose respon-
sibility it was to do something about these places operating openly
and notoriously, with 200 or 300 people in them.
Mr. Orecchio. May I say this
The Chairman. I am just trying to find out whether it is your re-
sponsibility, whether it is the prosecutor's responsibility, or whose it
is. Everybody seems to have known they were operating. They had
buildings. Some of them had big restaurants.
Senator Tobey. Everybody but the county chief of detectives' of-
fice. They did not seem to realize it.
The Chairman. Whose responsibility was it ? That is the ques-
tion.
Mr. Orecchio. You ask me whose responsibility it was?
The Chairman. Yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 231
Mr. Orecchio, I outlined before what the organization table is
for the county of Bergen, Senator. I did that for the purpose of
giving you a picture of ^\\mt the police set-up is in the county.
The Chairmax. All right. Senator Tobey ?
Senator Tobey. Yes.
Is it your conception of your job that you are not only to follow
suggestions put in your hand by JNIr. Winnie or somebody else, but
that you, hating unrighteousness and breaking the laws and all, have
an obligation as well as duty and privilege to go out and initiate
action against these crooks? Is that your conception of your job, to
initiate action?
Mr. Orecchio. Is it my concei^tion of the job to initiate action?
Senator Tobey. Yes.
Mr. Orecchio. It is my job, sir, and my duty, to initiate action
wherever we have knowledge that something is going on which is of
an illegal nature ; and. Senator, we do, and I do.
Senator Tobey. All right. This Stark trial was going on here, and
it was common knowledge in the streets of New York and in profes-
sional circles in New York and New Jersey, that Lodi was operat-
ing illegally a gambling house. It did not impress you so much that
you Avent out and raided the place and used a fine-tooth comb and
put some of these fellows on trial, did it, outside of Guarini? It did,
not impress you ?
Mr. Orecchio. Senator, the place was already closed, sir.
Senator Tobey. When it was running full blast before it was closed,
it was known as a gambling place.
Mr. Orecchio. It was known as a gambling place ?
Senator Tobey. Yes. We have plenty of testimony here from peo-
ple who knew about it.
]Mr. Orecchio. You ask me that question, and then I can say how
come the local police didn't see it ?
Senator Tobey. I did not ask you about that. It is your responsi-
bility.
Mr. Orecchio. It isn't my responsibility.
Senator Tobey. It is not your responsibility ?
Mr. Orecchio. It isn't entirely. I outlined the table of organi-
zation.
Senator Tobey. Yes.
Mr. Orecchio. It is not my responsibility. I assist the local police.
I do not police the county. I cannot police 70 towns with 8 men.
Senator Tobey. When you hear of a place flagrantly operating,
haven't you got the intestinal fortitude and
Mr. Orecchio. I have got more intestinal fortitude. Senator ■
Senator Tobey. Wait until I get through.
Mr. Orecchio. Just a minute.
Senator Tobey. To bring into gear the forces that can do it?
Mr. Orecchio. Senator, please. I didn't come here to be insulted.
Senator Tobey. I have not insulted you.
Mr. Orecchio. You don't know my background. You don't know
who I am. You talk about intestinal fortitude. I have plenty of it.
Senator Tobey. All right.
Mr. Orecchio. I do my job, and I do it honestly.
Senator Tobey. When you heard of conditions like this
232 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Oreccpiio. I went right out after them immediately, and there
was nothing there. We made a thorough investigation of Lodi. We
even had the police there. We grilled the police, the chief, the people
of the town.
Senator Tobet. This committee came here entirely out of the woods
from Washington, and in a few short days of preparation we have
uncovered a situation in Lodi that is horrible.
Mr. Orecchio. You have uncovered a situation, sir, where a man
went to jail.
Senator Tobey. Yes, I know. He is only one of many.
Mr. Orecchio. I don't know about the others. I don't agree with
you that conditions are as flagrant as that in Bergen County.
Senator Tobey. We know others who are p)laying the game there.
Another question. How long a time did it take you and from
what source did you accumulate $10,000 in cash in your safe-deposit
vault ?
Mr. Orecchio. How long a time? I have been working. Senator,
since I was 16.
Senator Tobey. I am speaking of the $10,000 that is there. How
long has that been in the process of accumulation ?
Mr. Orecchio. I have been working since I was 16 years old. That
money is hard earned by the sweat of my brow.
Senator Tobey. Some of it began to be accumulated when you were
16 years of age ?
Mr. Orecchio. I said I have been working since I was 16 years of
age. I didn't know life in any mansion. We live frugally at home,
my wife and I, and I have saved money. You look in my income-tax
return and you will find that by the end of this year I will have
reported over $70,000 in 7 years, and it is all there open for everybody
to see.
Senator Tobey. Wlien did you first rent this safe deposit box ?
Mr. Orecchio. Three or four years ago.
Senator Tobey. In what bank is it ?
Mr. Orecchio. The United National Bank of Cliffside Park.
Senator Tobey. Cliffside, Fla. ?
Mr. Orecchio. Cliffside Park, sir.
Senator Tobey. I beg you pardon.
Mr. Orecchio. That money is mine, gentlemen, hard-earned money.
Let's get that straight on the record.
Mr. Haeeey. Chief — were you finished, Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobey. You may think this is impertinent, also. You have
a right to think what you want about it. What special qualification
did you have to be put in as chief of the county detectives? Because
you have been inspector of ballots some years before that? Is tliat all ?
Mr. ( )recciiio. I am afraid, sir, you 'will have to ask Mr. W^inne
that, wlio appointed me.
Senator Tobey. You did not feel any sense of modesty or humility,
or perha])s that the values were being overstressed in putting you in
that important position?
Mr. Orecchio. You don't want me to outline my qualifications; do
you. Senator?
Senator Tobey. I asked you a question. Were you not surprised
when they asked you to take this particular job?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233
Mr. Orecchio. No, Senator. For 15 years I have been studying
criminology. I have studied medicine. I have studied anthropology,
j)hysics, history, everything connected with criminology. As a mat-
ter of fact, right now there are only four or five people in the whole
world who are studying electroencephalograph}^, its relationship to
crime and brain lesion. Mr. Winne thought that I was qualified,
and he gave me the job.
Senator Tobey. That is all I have.
The Chairman. Anything else ?
Mr. KosTELANETz. With regard to these checks, Chief, do they relate
only to your real-estate business?
Mr. Orecchio. That is everything. That is everything, my per-
sonal account, everything is in the one account; everything.
Mr. KosTELANETz, That is all.
Mr. Orecchio. I own the works. That is everything. That is my
personal account, 1113^ real estate, my salaries.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Did you go to Europe recently?
Mr. Orecchio. I went to Europe last year to make a study of police
methods and compare them with that of the United States.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Who paid for that trip ?
Mr. Orecchio. I paid for that trip.
Mr. KosTELANETz. That is reflected in your accounts?
Mr. Orecchio. That is reflected in the accounts.
Mr, KosTELANETz. Did anyone accompany you on the trip?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes. Two lawyers accompanied me on the trip.
Mr. Gross and Mr. McDonald.
Mr. KosTELANETz. Would you give us their full names ?
Mr. Orecchio. Mr. Albert Gross, of Hackensack; and Edward
McDonald, also of Hackensack. Mr. McDonald is the clerk of the
grand jury.
May I go back, Senator Tobey ?
Senator Tobey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Orecchio. I just want to go back a moment, because I do want
to get you straightened out, sir. I am extremely touchy on this sub-
ject of my finances, because I have worked pretty hard for it. You
said how did I accumulate $10,000 ? I told you at the time that I was
in the plumbing and heating business along with the insurance.
Senator Tobey. I always thought the plumbers were malefactors
of great wealth, but go ahead.
Mr. Orecchio. You need them, sir.
We had accumulated quite a little stock, as you will in business. As
a matter of fact, a couple of people went bankrupt on me. Instead
of completing the jobs, we didn't complete the job. In other words,
we completed what they call the rough and didn't complete the finish.
I had this all in the warehouse, as everybody in my town and county
can testify. They knew that. Wlien my brother went his way, I sold
that out, sir, to people who came along and bought it, and I got $7,000
for that. That was over a period of 3 or 4 years. That is part of that
money.
I received from Mr. Osmers $12,000, which was salary I had coming
to me for 4 years at $3,000 a year.
The Chairman. What did you do for him ?
Mr. Orecchio. I was district secretary.
68958 — 51— pt. 7 16
234 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Keeping his political fences in shape?
Mr. Orbcchio. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you think the Government ought to pay some-
body to keep political fences in shape ?
Mr. Orecchio. The Government didn't pay me.
The Chairman. Mr. Osmers paid you ?
Mr. Orecchio. This came out of Mr. Osmers' pocket, and not the
Government.
The Chairman. He did not put you on the congressional payroll ?
Mr. Orecchio. No, sir. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. His name was not Thomas, was it ?
Mr. Orecchio. He is from my county, too.
The Chairman. You did not get your check from the United States ?
Mr. Orecchio. He had a secretai^ in Washington. He had two
girls in Washington. They were on the payroll, and they collected
the $5,600, or whatever it was that was allowed at that time. I had
an agreement wnth Mr. Osmers that I would wait until such time as
he was financially able to pay me out of his own pocket, which he did.
As a matter of fact, the w^ay he paid me that, he sold a farm up at
Chatham, N. Y., and he paid me that. You will notice it in my records,
Counselor. I get $1,400 a year, that is a second mortgage that I have
on that farm up there. I took that as part of the payment.
The Chairman. Let us move on. Any other questions ?
Mr. Kostelanetz. Do you have any objection to one of our inves-
tigators going with you to your box tomorrow morning and make an
inventory of your box '?
Mr. Orecchio. As a matter of fact, I would welcome it.
Mr. Kostelanetz. When were you in the box last, sir?
Mr. Orecchio. I don't know. About a year or a year and a half
ago.
Mr. Kostelanetz. I see.
The Chairman. What time would be convenient, 9 o'clock ?
Mr. Kostelanetz. Nine o'clock is when the bank opens ? Can one
of your boys make it ?
Mr. Orecchio. Any time at all. I would welcome it.
The Chairman. Nine o'clock. That is a date.
My. Halley. Chief, there has been some statement made by the wit-
nesses that you attended a wedding of Willi Moretti's daughter. Is
there any truth in that ?
Mr. Orecchio. Of course, that is a vicious lie, Mr. Counselor.
Mr. Halley. You were not present at that wedding?
Mr. Orecchio. I was not. You know, these investigations create
a Eoman holiday for people who really want to take a whack at you.
You know that. They really love it. 'When the facts come out, I am
sure you will find in the Bergen County prosecutors' office we have
done a good job.
]SIr. Halley. It is almost impossible to understand how you just let
Guarini take the fall or the rap for the entire crowd and did nothing
further.
ISIr. Orecchio. As I say, that isn't true, and I am sorry that I have
had to answer the way I did, because if the records were here and the
assistant prosecutor were here, he could answer, too, on his part of it.
The Chairman. That is all.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 235
Mr. Orecchio. I don't want to leave the impression — may I,
please
Mr. Elich. Mr. Myers will be with you tomorrow and examine those
records tomorrow, and give a full report on it. That will settle. the
issue rather quickly.
Mr. Orecchio. Which records ?
Mr. Elich. About the Guarini indictment, and what investigation
was made.
Mr. Orecchio. They are in the office, sure. Fine.
Senator Tobey. Why did you not take some action about Erickson's
operation at Cliff side, N. J. ?
Mr. Orecchio. I didn't know about it, sir.
Senator Tobey. You saw it in all the papers, sir. I examined Erick-
son in Washington. You saw the statement come out about Erickson's
testimony, did you not ?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. It came out about Cliffside in that testimony.
Mr. Orecchio. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. You read that, did you not ?
Mr. Orecchio. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. Did you take any action ?
Mr. Orecchio. I certainly did.
Senator Tobey. "Wliat did you do ?
Mr. Orecchio. We went right to the place listed there, and there
was nothing there.
Senator Tobey. Mr. Hogan took some action, and put him in jail,
did he not ?
Mr. Orecchio. He did it on what happened in New York, not New
Jersey.
Senator Tobey. He took some action.
Mr. Orecchio. I can't be responsible. I can't help what Mr. Hogan
does over here with his people here. If we find anything wrong in
New Jersey, we will put them in jail, too.
Senator Tobey. Wasn't Erickson's wire room not very far from
your home in New Jersey ?
Mr. Orecchio. Let's put it that the place mentioned in the news-
pa])ers is about a mile and a half away from my home.
Senator Tobey. -452 Palisades Avenue.
Mr. Orecchio. That is about a mile and a half, in another town.
Senator Tobey. Did you go down there ?
Mr. Orecchio. Certainly I did. Senator.
Senator Tobey. What did you find ?
Mr. Orecchio. Nothing.
Senator Tobey. Wires all pulled out ?
Mr. Orecchio. There weren't any wires there. As a matter of
fact, it w^as a party line, just a party line.
Senator Tobey. I see.
Mr. Orecchio. That is all. As I say, I don't know where some of
these stories are coming from, but they are really fantastic. Let's
get to the facts, and you will find it is a little bit different, believe me;
and I am not saying there isn't anything wrong in Bergen County
with reference to gambling. You will find that all over, sir.
The Chairman. All right, sir.
Mr. Orecchio, May I have my papers ?
236 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
INIr. Halley. We would like to keep them long enough to have an
accountant go through them.
Mr. Orecchio. Why can't he do it in my office tomorrow? I will
be glad to give him my secretary, my son, somebody. I would like to
take them with me.
The Chairman. We will endeavor to bring the records back to you
tomorrow. At least, such parts as we do not, we will give you an in-
ventory of.
Mr. Orecchio. I don't know what I have here.
Senator Tobey. We do not know yet, either.
Mr. Halley. Perhaps you should take them into the next room, and
Mr. Frankel will make an inventory with you.
(Witness excused.)
The Chairman. Mr. Borelli, do you solemnly swear that the testi-
mony 3^ou will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Borelli. I do.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK NICHOLAS BORELLI, CLIFFSIDE PARK, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name?
Mr. Borelli. Frank Nicholas Borelli, Cliffside, N. J., Cliffside
Park.
Mr. Halley. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Borelli. I am the chief of police of that town.
Mr. Halley. How long have you had that job ?
Mr. Borelli. I have been chief about 30 years.
Mr. Halley. You have been chief for about 30 years '?
Mr. Borelli. About 30.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any other occupation in the last 30
years "
Mr. Borelli. In what respect ?
Mr. Halley. Do you have any other work that you do besides being
chief of police ?
Mr, Borelli. No. I am chief of police.
Mr. Halley. You do no other work ?
Mr. Borelli. Do you mean do I have other income ?
Mr. Halley. Do you have any other job ?
Mr. Borelli. No.
Mr. Halley. Or business ?
Mr. Borelli. Business; yes.
Mr. Halley. Businesses; yes,
Mr. Borelli. I have businesses in other business.
Mr. Halley. You have brought your financial records called for by
the subpena ?
Mr. Borelli. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Will you produce them now and state what you have
brought ?
Mr. Borelli. Yes.
I brought the 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, and 1950 canceled checks: I
brought my bank statements; I brought my bank stubs; and I brought
my bank books and bank stubs. In two particular banks there was a
check drawn to the Internal Revenue where I had no checking account,
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIMERCE 237
and they sent a cashier's check. So I wouldn't have anything except
this to prove that, in other words.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any income-tax returns with you ?
Mr. BoRELLi. I have them all here, sir.
I might state the bookkeeper of the place that I am concerned with
has my 1947, 1948, and 1949— he wouldn't have the 1950— up to date
of all transactions in Palisade Amusement Park. He would have to
come in and give you the detail. I can get them or get the records, but
I couldn't explain it very thoroughly.
Mr. Halley. But you have the returns ?
Mr. BoRELLi. Everything.
Mr. Halley. Right here with you ?
Mr. BoRELLi. They are outside. The income-tax returns ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. BoRELLi. I have them.
Mr. Halley. We would like them here.
Mr. BoRELLi. Yes, sure. Ask for Mr. Russell, George Russell.
What happened with the 1946 return, I was examined and investi-
gated in 1947. There is something wrong about the way the 1946
return is, but I do have the Internal Revenue's report on it, which will
be self-explanatory.
Mr. Halley. While we are waiting for the records, what other in-
come do you have? First, what is your salary as chief of police?
Mr. Borelli. What is my salary ? About $4,500 a year. It might
be $4,550, 1 am not too sure.
Mr. Halley. How long has it been at that rate ?
Mr. Borelli. Not too long. Probably 3 years.
Mr. Halley. What was it prior to that ?
Mr. Borelli. Probably $4,200. I think there was a $250 raise, so
it might have been $250 less.
Mr. Halley. What other income have you had in the last 5 years ?
Mr. Borelli. Five years ? I got an income from what you call the
Creamer & Dyer, and Palisade Amusement Park. I also have an in-
come from a golf course which belongs to me. I also have an income
from the B. & B. Amusement, that is, my wife has. It still goes into
my records. It will show in my records, B. & B. Amusement.
Mr. Halley. "VV^iat is B. & B. Amusement ?
Mr. Borelli. It was Borelli and Bennett. The two women got
together and built up until the fire. After the fire of 1944, they built
up bigger stands. They are not operating now. We rent them out ;
since 1947, 1948, 1949, and 1950, we rented them out.
Mr. Halley. Are you talking about stands at Palisades Park?
Mr. Borelli. Talking about what?
Mr. Haixey. Amusement stands at the amusement park.
Mr. Borelli. That is correct. That is in the B. & B. The others
are stands, too, but they are refreshment stands. For instance, beer,
lemonade, soda, frankfurters, popcorn, candy, and the like of that.
Mr. Halley. What is the B. & B. ? What kind of stands are they?
Mr. Borelli. They are what you call ham stands. They were hot
dog stands. Now they are changed into ham stands.
Mr. Halley. Wliat is sold at a ham stand ?
Mr. Borelli. Bacon. I wouldn't know too much about it. I know
they have eggs, bacon, chicken.
238 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Chief, as a result of covering Palisades Park ratlier
tliorouohly with my children, I thonght I knew all about it. But
w^liat is the Creamer & Dj^er?
Mr. BoRELLi. Creamer & Dyer, I just explained, is the refreshment
stands in the park. That is Creamer & Dyer.
Mr. Halley. That is just the name of the company?
IVlr. BoRELLi. That is the name of the concern that own it. You
see, these are all concessionaries, practically, in the park. Creamer &
Dyer have the concession of the frankfurters, the lemonade, soda,
candy, ])opcorn, and so forth.
JNIr. Halley. What interest have you in Creamer & Dyer ?
Mr. BoRELLi. I have a 37i/2-percent interest.
Mr. Halley. How long have you had that. Chief?
Mr. BoRELLi. Probably 18 years.
Mr. Halley. How did you first acquire it?
Mr. BoRELLi. I ])aid for it. I bought it.
Mr. Halley. What did it cost you ?
]Mr. BoREixT. Oh, at that time the park was very bad. In fact, we
hadn't seen any money there for a period of 3 or 4 years. In fact,
nobody was able to pay rent. We just existed and went along. Then
when other people came in there and were going to make it better,
which didn't develop better, finally they did bring in somebody that
did really go on and make a success of it. We were fortunate in that.
Mr. Halley. You were fortunate enough to have been in it?
Mr. Borelli. To hold it until the time. A lot of people walked out.
We held on because we had the buildings there. We held on, and
these new people came in and they made a success of it.
Mv. Halley. How long has the B. & B. Amusement Co. been in
Palisades Park?
]\Ir. B(^RELLi. I would say about 12 years. Don't hold me to just the
years. It might be 13 or 14. It might be 11. It might be 10.
Mr. Halley. What are your total assets today. Chief? Do you
own a home ?
Mr. Borelli. Yes ; I own a home.
Mr. Halley. In Palisades ?
Mr. Borelli. No, no. Cliffsicle.
Mr. Halley. Cliffside Park?
]VIr. Borelli, Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you own any other real estate, you or your wife?
Mr. Borelli. I do. I own some bungalows, two bungalows, three
bungalows down in South Jersey, small affairs, that I have had for
4 or 5 years.
Mr. Halley. Do you oAvn any other real estate?
Mr. Borelli. I did. I got rid of all of it in 1946.
Mr. Halley. Do j^ou own any stock or bonds ?
Mr. Borelli. No.
Mr. Halley. Does your wife ?
Mr. Borelli. Outside of war bonds, no stock and bonds.
Mr. Halley. Does your wife own any stock or bonds ?
Mr. Borelli. Anything she owns, I own. It is practically in both
names. It makes no material difference. We never have any dis-
cussion about that. If it is in my name or her name, it makes no
difference.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 239
Mr, Halle Y. Tlien you have the businesses at the Palisades Amuse-
ment Park?
Mr. BoRELLi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Creamer & Dyer, and B. & B. ?
Mr. BoRELLi. That is, I have 371/2 percent of that. The golf course
belongs to me,
Mr. Halley. Is that the immense midget golf course in the park?
Mr. BoRELLi. Yes ; it is a small one.
Mr. Halley, When did you acquire that ?
Mr. BoRELLi. It must be 15 or 16 years ago. Don't hold me to
definite times.
Mr. Halley, What would you say is your net worth in cash in the
bank?
]\Ir, BoRELLi, Today ? I can tell you in 5 minutes.
Mr. Halley. Do your bank books reflect it all clearly ?
Mr. BoRELLT. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. Let's just have the approximate amount.
Mr. BoRELLL Approximate! V $50,000, $60,000, $70,000. It could
be $80,000 or so.
Senator Tobey. I wish I was in position not to know whether it was
$80,000 or $90,000.
Mr. BoRELLi. If you were chief of police — [laughter]. No insult,
Senator.
Senator Tobey. I think that is a very illuminating answer. You
cannot tell how much it might be. It varies with the day.
The Chairman. Let us get the amount of cash he has,
Mr. BoRELLi, You want the amounts? No, take them down as
I read it.
The Chairman. Give us the total.
Mr. BoRELLi. I have six or seven books.
The Chairman. What is your estimate of the amount of cash you
have in the bank ?
Mr. BoRELLi. I think it is around $50,000 or $60,000. I am not
sure. I didn't take time to total it.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a safe-deposit box ?
Mr. BoRELLi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any cash in that box ?
Mr. BoRELLi. No, All I have in there is war bonds,
Mr, Halley, Do you have any cash in any other place ?
Mr, BoRELLi. No, sir.
Mr, Halley, How much do you have in war bonds, approximately ?
Your best estimate.
Mr, BoRELLi, Make it around $15,000, probably $17,000,
Senator Tobey. Do you have any annuities?
Mr. BoRELLi. No ; $500 insurance.
The Chairman. $500,000 insurance?
Mr, BoRELLi, $500, Senator.
Mr. Halley. What was your income during 1949 ?
Mr. BoRELLi. 1949? Didn't that man bring it in? Probably
$25,000. I couldn't tell you without looking at this. If you would
let my bookkeeper give you this
Mr, Halley, Let us see the returns for the last 5 years,
Mr, BoRELLi. Here they are.
240 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Your income, then, is approximately $4,500 as chief
of police, and the remainder of it from these concessions at the Pali-
sades Park ?
Mr. BoRELLi. Around $18,000, something like that.
Mr. Halley. Have you any other income or have you had any other
income ?
Mr. BoRELLi. Oh, yes, on rentals.
Mr. Halley. Rentals of the bungalows ?
Mr. Borelli. Yes ; I have rentals from the bungalows.
Mr. Halley. Any other rental ?
Mr. Borelli. No. The buildings I did have, I sold in the year 1946.
Mr. Halley. The committee has been looking into the operations of
certain gambling places. Some of them seem to have operated in
Cliilside Park. We were wondering what you knew about them,
Chief.
Mr. Borelli. You see, it is an unfortunate situation I live in there.
It happens that Cliff side Park, all these telephone numbers that are
Cliffside, cover five different boroughs, and unless you give the specific
j^hone numbers or addresses, I can't tell you which town they are in.
In other words, to clear this up a little better for you, there is Fairview,
there is Edgewater, there is Cliffside, there is part of Ridgefield, all
under a Cliffside number.
Mr. Halley. We are talking about Cliffside now.
Mr. Borelli. I can't say there is any gambling in Cliffside, sir.
Mr. Halley. Has there been any in the last 5 years ?
Mr. Borelli. Not to my knowledge ; no. I don't say there hasn't
been. There is a possibility. It is just like a bookmaker. I could
go in any city or town, municipality, and go along, and there is a book-
maker with a phone in an office, and not be detected unless somebody
made a report.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of a garage in Cliffside Park in
which there was a gambling house operated ?
Mr. Borelli. Not in Cliffside Park. If you give me the address.
It might be a Cliffside phone.
Mr. Halley. You never arrested anybody for a crap game in Cliff-
side?
Mr. Borelli. Oh, no ; not in Cliffside.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Borelli. Yes ; I know him.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Joe Adonis ?
Mr. Borelli. Well, now, I can go back quite a few years on that.
The first time I met him, I guess, was probably 7 or 8 years ago.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Jerry Catena ?
Mr. Borelli. I don't know Jerry Catena. I know of him. I don't
know him.
Mr. Halley. Have you been in Joe Adonis' home ?
Mr. Borelli. No.
Mr. Halley. Has he been in yours ?
Mr. Borelli. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go out together ?
Mr. Borelli. No.
Mr. Halley. Where did you see him ?
Mr. Borelli. In the restaurant. I used to see him a lot.
Mr. Halley. What restaurant?
ORGANIZED CRIIVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 241
Mr. BoRELLi. Duke's Eestaiirant.
Mr, Halley. Do you go to Duke's often ?
Mr. BoRELLi. Not so much the last 3 years, due to the fact I can't
stand the food. The food is very good, but it is not good for me.
Mr. Halley. You used to eat at Duke's a lot, up to 3 years ago ?
Mr. BoRELLi. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. Who all would go to Duke's frequently? I under-
stand Joe Adonis and Frank Costello.
Mr. Borelli. "Wlio?
Mr. Halley. Frank Costello.
Mr. Borelli. No ; I never saw him.
Mr. Halley. He woulcbi't go there ?
Mr. Borelli. I wouldn't know. He might be there sometime that
I wouldn't be.
Mr. Halley. Willie Moretti ?
Mr. Borelli. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Would he be there a lot ?
Mr. Borelli. I would see him there often.
Mr. Halley. Salvatore Moretti i
Mr. Borelli. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Longie Zwillman ?
Mr. Borelli. No ; I don't. Only what I read of him.
Mr. Halley. You never met him ?
Mr. Borelli. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jerry Catena ?
Mr. Borelli. No. I may have seen him, but to say I am personally
acquainted with the man, I can't say I am.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jimmie Lynch ?
Mr. Borelli. Yes.
]Mr. Halley. Does he hang out at Duke's ?
Mr. Borelli. He used to.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Lynch ?
Mr. Borelli. That would go over a period of 5 or 6 years, too.
Mr. Halley. We won't ask any more questions now, because we have
to go. Mr. Kostelanetz or somebody he may send out to see you may
have some more questions, and may ask you to come to New York.
Will that be all right?
Mr. Borelli. I will be glad to answer them.
The Chairman. If you will wait around awhile, we can go over
these records and get them back to you later on.
Mr. Borelli. Today, Senator?
The Chairman. I do not think we can today.
Mr. Borelli. Don't leave me on the spot. I would like to get the
check book, at least one of the books that I can draw from.
The Chairman. Suppose you wait outside a few minutes, and we
will try to release your check book.
(Thereupon, at 3 : 25 p. m., the hearing was adjourned, subject to
call.)
INVESTIGATION OF OEGANIZED CEIME IN INTEESTATE
COMMEECE
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 1950
United States Senate,
Special Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to call of the Chairman, at 10 : 10 a. m.,
in room 457 Senate Office Building, Senator Estes Kefauver (chair-
man) presiding.
Present : Senators Kefauver, Tobey, and Wiley.
Also present: Representative Louis B. Heller.
Rudolph Halley, chief counsel.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
This is a continuation of the hearing which the committee had in
New York about 2 months ago involving principally gambling trans-
actions in Bergen County, N. J., part of which lapped over and in-
volved New York, the City of New York, New York State ; and also
the New York hearings involved Saratoga Springs.
At the hearing we had about 2 months ago in New York, we heard
certain accountants for the principals involved, certain employees; a
great many records were introduced. We had before us some of the
customers and people who had frequented and participated in these
gambling house transactions.
We also had before us certain law enforcement officials in the coun-
ties where the transactions took place.
At that time it was not possible to have certain of the principals in
these matters appear and testify because they could not be reached at
that time by subpena.
However, today we do have several of them as witnesses, and this is a
continuation of that hearing.
Now, there will probably be other hearings in connection with those
transactions and, of course, this is not the entire hearing involving
the New York-New Jersey area; it is only one part of it.
Later on, before the committee makes its report, other hearings in
connection with New York-New Jersey activities in that part of that
country will be prepared.
We want to cooperate as much as possible with the press photogra-
phers and anyone else who wants to take pictures. On the other hand,
during the time the witnesses are testifying, we do not want the conti-
nuity of their thought or their testimony interru])ted by too many
pictures. I think we had better start out and see how we get along,
because we may have to change our rules as we go, but I believe that to
243
244 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
start with, if the photographers will take pictures if it is all right with
the witness, in the beginning and at the end of his testimony, that
will be satisfactory ; but during the time of his testimony, let us not
interrupt his testimony with flash-bulb pictures.
Let the record show that the distinguished Senators from New
Hampshire, Mr. Tobey, and from Wisconsin, Mr. Wiley, are present,
and that this hearing is being held subject to and pursuant to the
resolution previously adopted by the committee, and that if it is
impossible for three Senators to be here, the chairman of the com-
mittee will designate one member of the committee to swear witnesses
and to take sworn testimony.
Mr. Halley, have you got anything ?
Mr. Halley. No, not by way of general introduction. I would like
to say that one witness is reported to be sick.
The Chairman. Mr. Gerald Catena is reported to be ill and unable
to be here today. His attorney, Mr. Calandra, is present.
Mr. Calandra. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Calandra, will you come around and give us
information about vour client ?
Mr. Calandra. "!^es. Mr. Chairman and honorable Senators, I am
very sorry to report that Mr. Catena is unable to be here; About 6
o'clock this morning I received a telephone call informing me that
around 1 o'clock this morning he was attended by his physician. Dr.
Bartelo Lombardo, of Newark, N. J., and he informs me — I called the
doctor by telephone — and he informs me that he finds this situation.
The Chairman. Mr. Calandra, you are a counselor at law at 31
Clinton Street, Newark, N. J. ?
Mr. Calandra. Yes, sir. My name is Anthony A. Calandra.
The Chairman. Have you regularly represented Mr. Catena?
Mr. Calandra. No, I am appearing for Mr. Catena for the first time
in connection with these proceedings.
The Chairman. What information do you have on this — if you do
not object, all of our witnesses are sworn, Mr. Calandra.
Mr. Calandra. What is that?
The Chairman. I say all of our witnesses are sworn. Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you give this committee will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Calandra. I have no objection to being sworn.
Yes, sir ; I do.
TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY A. CALANDRA, ATTORNEY, NEWARK,
N. J., REPRESENTING GERALD CATENA
The Chairman. As I remember, you were present with Mrs. Catena
when she appeared in New York ?
Mr. Calandra. Yes ; I was.
The Chairman. Keep your seat; it is all right.
And Mrs. Catena, we had her in before the committee, to try to
ascertain the whereabouts of your client, Mr. Catena, you recall, and
you appeared with her at that time ?
Mr. Calandra. Yes, sir ; I did.
The Chairman. All right, sir.
What information do you have on his physical condition ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 245
Mr, Calandra. Dr. Lombardo informed me by telephone this morn-
ing- that he examined Mr. Catena at his home, and as a result of a
complaint by Mr. Catena, that he had a sharp pain under the breast,
and he classifies the condition as acute coronary insufficiency due to
vaso-spasm. He intends to have a cardiograph or cardiogram taken
of Mr. Catena at the earliest moment, and the doctor further informed
me that Mr. Catena would be confined to his bed for at least several
days.
Dr. Lombardo has his offices at 111 Wilson Avenue in Newark, N. J.
The Chairman. Do you have something in Dr. Lombardo's hand-
writing, some report from him ?
Mr. Calandra. No; I do not, sir, because we had made arrange-
ments to come to Washington this morning on the 8 : 20 plane, the 611 .
flight. When I received this information by telephone I, of course,
called the doctor, and he gave me the information which I have
related to you gentlemen, and I have no time or I had no time or
opportunity, of coui-se, to get a certificate or an affidavit from him,
because I did want to be here in behalf of Mr. Catena on time, and
for me to have gone down to his offices and prepared such a statement
as he would make, of course, would prevent my being here by this
hour.
The Chairman. Well, of course, the committee has had a great deal
of difficulty in trying to locate Mr. Catena and in serving a subpena
on him.
We want to be generous in matters of this sort, but I think that we
will have to ask that you contact Dr. Lombardo and have him wire
the counselor or the chairman of the committee over his name the
full details of Mr. Catena's physical condition.
Mr. Calandra. I shall do that. Do you want that
The Chairman. And ask him to have it here by noon.
Mr. Calandra. I shall be glad to do that. I do want to state that
Mr. Catena, on his return to his home, notified the investigators, I
think Mr. Elich and Mr. Murray, that he was available for subpena,
and he was served with a subpena on October 16.
Mr. Halley. Mr, Calandra, the committee has been attempting to
obtain service on Mr. Catena for many months, not only in connec-
tion with this matter but also in connection with his relationship with
the Peoplese Express Co., and the committee's efforts to find your
client in connection with that matter go back about 4 months.
Now, I am going to ask the committee to rule that, first, we be per-
mitted to have our own physician see your client as soon as that can
be arranged, and, second, I think I should advise you that if it should
hereafter appear that your client's condition is not as represented by
you I will recommend to the committee that it go ahead with con-
tempt proceedings for his failure to appear this morning.
Mr. Calandra. I understand.
Mr. Halley. In other words, the matter will be investigated, and
his failure to appear for facts not as stated by you, I think you should
know, constitute a contempt.
Mr. Calandra. I understand that, and I feel that the doctor will
cooperate with such physician that this committee will appoint to
examine Mr. Catena at this time.
The Chairman. Can you tell us that the doctor and Mr. Catena
will cooperate in the matter of allowing us to have an examination ?
246 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Calandra. I liave no doubt about that, Senator Kefauver.
The Chairman. Well, the committee will follow the program out-
lined by Mr. Halley. as counsel, if that is satisfactory. But you may
as well inform Mr. Catena, Mr. Calandra, that we are not very well
pleased with the delays that we have had in securing his testimony
up to this time, and that we are not going to put up with any monkey
business in connection with his not being: here. If he is genviinely
ill ^ .
]Mr. Calandra. I am firmly convinced that he had every intention
to be here.
Is this telegram from the doctor to come to you, Senator, or Mr.
Halley?
The Chairman. Well, let it come to the chairman of the committee.
Mr. Calandra. Very well, sir ; thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Salvatore Moretti, please.
Mr. Selser. May I address myself to the committee, sir?
The Chairman. What is your name ?
Mr. Selser. John E. Selser, New Jersey attorney practicing out of
Hackensack.
The Chairman. Suppose we swear Mr. Moretti.
Mr. Selser. We have no objection to that.
The Chairman. What is that ?
Mr. Selser. It is quite all right, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Moretti, do you solemnly swear the testimony
you will give this commitee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Moretti. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY OF SALVATORE MORETTI, DEMAREST, N. J., ACCOM-
PANIED BY JOHN E. SELSER, ATTORNEY, HACKENSACK, N. J.
The Chairman. Now, gentlemen, sit down. All right, Mr. Selser,
where do you practice law ?
Mr. Selser. I am practicing out of Hackensack. I am an attorney
in the State of New Jersey, sir.
The Chairman. What is your address ?
Mr. Selser. 210 Main Street, Hackensack.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Selser. I represent Mr. Moretti in two proceedings presently
pending, one in the State of New Jersey, and one in the State of
New York.
Presently, Mr. Moretti is under complaint in New Jersey awaiting
action of the grand jury in that State in that county. His bail pres-
entl}" is $15,000, and we applied to the court in New Jersey for leave
to depart the jurisdiction of the court, modifying the bail accordingly,
so that we might appear before this committee today.
I take it that there are certain inquiries to be made by this com-
mittee, answers to which may tend to incriminate this defendant, and
he, on my advice, will exercise the privileges which are granted him
under the fifth amendment to the Constitution, and refuse to answer
such questions.
I anticipate, too, that there may be some interrogation with regard
to income-tax returns made. These returns, as I am informed, have
been made available to this committee by some act of the President.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 247
With regard to these things or matters which were set up in such
returns, I shall advise Mr. Moretti not to answer on the ground not
only of self-incrimination but, perhaps, on the ground, too, that it
is not the function of this committee to inquire into matters relating
to income-tax returns or liabilities.
This committee, having been set up by resolution to inquire into
crime in interstate commerce and not with regard to the violation of
any income-tax obligations, I shall advise my client not to answer.
Now, in the State of New York we are also under charges
The Chairman. Mr. Selser, let me get the matter of the charges
clearly before us. Mr. Moretti is under complaint pending grand jury
action
]\Ir. Selser. That is correct.
The Chairman (continuing) . In matters growing out of the alleged
participation in certain gambling activities in Bergen County, is that
correct ?
Mr. Selser. The charge is a conspiracy to violate the antigambling
laws of the State of New Jersey.
The Chairman. Do you have a copy of the complaint, sir?
Mr. Selser. I do not have it here, sir.
The Chairman. Does it refer to the Bergen County matter about
which this committee has made inquiry ?
Mr. Selser. I beg your pardon, sir?
The Chairman. Does it refer to the activities in Bergen County
about which this committee has made inquiry previously ?
Mr. Selser. I presume so ; I am not familiar with the nature of the
inquiries up to this time made by the committee, but I am informed
by the attorney general, who is prosecuting the matter in Bergen
County, that he has been supplied by this committee with testimony
given by various witnesses who appeared before the committee, and
it is upon the basis of the testimony supplied to him by this commit-
tee that he is able to proceed with the prosecution in New Jersey this
far.
The Chairman. Is that Mr. Parsons or Mr.
Mr. Selser. Stamler.
The Chairman. Stamler.
Mr. Selser. Stamler is the attorney general especially assigned.
The Chairman. And the New York complaint is what?
Mr. Selser. The New York complaint is a conspiracy charging in
the first count that Mr. Moretti. with certain others, did conspire to
violate the gambling laws of the States other than New York, without
in the information designating the States so involved ; and that Mr.
Moretti and the others named in the information induced residents of
New York and other places to attend such institutions for the purpose
of gambling therein.
That matter is presently pending, a plea of not guilty having been
made. ^Motions have been directed to the information as to its legal
sufficiency, these motions presently pending before the court, and on
this Mr. Moretti is presently released on $20,000 bail.
The Chair]\ian. Is that prosecution being carried on by Mr.
Hogan's office in New York ?
Mr. Selser. Yes, sir. Mr. O'Connor is the assistant district attor-
ney in charge.
The Chairman. Vincent A. D. C. O'Connor?
248 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Selser. I think that is his name, sir.
The Cjiaikman. Now the third matter that you raise is about the
income-tax investigation. Has any internal revenue or tax case been
pending against Mr, Moretti ?
Mr. Selser. Not to my knowledge, although I am informed— well,
may I say this : I was informed, but not by any official communication
from the Department of Eevenue, that the matter of the return of Mr.
Moretti is presently being investigated. This information came to
me through a Mr. Smith who, I am told, is the person in charge of this
and certain other investigations.
The Chair]man. Are there any other representations that you wish
to make, Mr. Selser?
Mr. Selser. No; I think not, sir. I think that covers my basic
approach to the problem.
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Selser, we will proceed with the exami-
nation. You make such objections to questions that you wish, and
the chairman, for the committee, will endeavor to rule on them as they
come along.
The general ruling of the Chair will be that Mr. Moretti has no
privilege or immunity from answering questions that concern an
alleged violation of the State law; if, in the opinion of the committee
the committee feels that the question may violate his rights under the
fifth amendment with reference to some Federal matter, the committee
will direct Mr. Moretti not to answer such question. But we have,
as you know, been anxious to talk with Mr. Moretti about matters over
which this committee has jurisdiction, so we will have to proceed, and
you make such objection to tlie questions as you desire.
Mr. Selser. There will be opportunity for conference with Mr.
Moretti, which will be allowed if the need should develop?
The Chairman. Yes ; if it does not take too long.
Mr. Selser. Yes ; if we do not make it too long. I think Mr. Moretti
and I should be able to reach a quick decision.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name?
Mr. Moretti. Salvatore Moretti.
Mr. Halley, Where do you live?
Mr. Moretti. In Demarest, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is the street address ?
Mr. Moretti. Pardon.
Mr. Halley. What is the full address ?
Mr. Moretti. Hillside Avenue, Demarest, N. J.
Mr. Halley. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Moretti. I was born in New York City in 1903.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted of a crime?
Mr. Selser. I object to that. I do not see that the record of Mr.
Moretti can possibly bear upon the subject matter of this Senate
committee's investigation.
The Chairman. Objection will be overruled. Mr. Moretti will be
directed to answer the question.
Mr. Moretti. Well, I have been convicted ; yes.
Mr. Halley. When and where and of what offense ?
Mr. IVIoRETTi. I am sorry ; I don't have the records ; I can't answer
that question.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249
Mr. Hallet. You remember having been convicted of a crime ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Halley. In what State?
Mr. MoRETTi. In New York State.
Mr. Halley. What was the offense ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Can't you even remember the offense ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; I am sorry ; I don't. I admit that I have been
convicted. You asked that question.
Mr. Halley. How many times did you say you had been convicted?
Mr. MoRETTi. A few times of minor offenses, so minor that I can't
remember what the occasion was.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever go to jail?
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I went to jail.
Mr. Halley. For how long'?
Mr. Selser. I object to this line of questioning. I cannot see how
this possibly
The Chairman. Objection is overruled, Mr. Selser.
Mr. Selser. I don't see how this can bear
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Selser, it is apparent to us that you are
not familiar with the resolution or with the background of what we
want to ask Mr. Moretti about.
Mr. Selser. I think I am familiar with the resolution, sir.
The Chairman. Anyway, your objection, sir, is overruled. We
are glad to have you appear, and we will try to see that the rights
of your client are reasonably protected. You make your objections,
and the chairman will rule upon them. The question of Mr. Halley
is a proper question, and Mr. Moretti is directed to answer it.
Mr. Selser. You may.
Mr. Halley. Will you repeat the question, Mr. Stenographer?
(The question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. Moretti. I believe it was a 6 months' sentence.
Mr. Halley. That was in 1933?
Mr. Moretti. It might have been ; I can't remember that far back.
Mr. Halley. For contempt of court, was it not ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I can't say ; I don't remember what the charges
were. I do remember serving time, as I said.
Mr. Halley. That was in New York, is that right ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
]Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted of any other crime?
Mr. Moretti. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been convicted of any other crime?
Mr. Moretti. No ; not that I remember.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted of running a lottery?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I was not.
Mr. Halley. Were you not convicted of participating in a numbers
racket in New Jersey ?
Mr. Moretti. I was not; I beg to differ with you; I was not.
If you read — if you have the information in front of you, you will
see it is entirely different, as I don't remember ever being arrested
for lottery.
Mr. Halley. How do you remember it?
68958—51— pt. 7 17
250 ORG.iNIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't remember being arrested for a lottery, as you
point out.
Mr. Halley. What were you arrested for?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Weren't you arrested for aiding and abetting lot-
teries ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I am sorry ; I don't remember that.
Mr. Halley. And convicted in 1934 in New Jersey, with your
brother ?
Mr. Moretti. I can't remember that, sir ; I am sorry, I can't remem-
ber that.
Mr. Halley. Didn't you get a suspended sentence?
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I remember getting a suspended sentence, but
I don't remember what it was for. It was for no lottery, as you
point out.
Mr. Halley. Well, you were in the numbers racket at that time,
were you not?
Mr. Moretti. I was not, sir.
Mr. Halley. You must have gotten arrested and convicted for
something.
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I remember.
Mr. Selser. I object to that.
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir; I
Mr. Halley. What was it?
Mr. Selser. It is not a question ; it is a statement by counsel.
The Chairman. He asked what he was arrested and convicted for.
Mr. Selser. And then counsel said, "You must have been arrested
for something," which certainly is not a question.
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Selser, he said he remembered getting
a suspended sentence, so he is asking him what it was for.
Mr. Selser. May we identify the place where this was done? Per-
haps it was a Passaic County matter, which I think I know about.
The Chairman. Well, we are not asking you to testify at this time.
Mr. Selser. I appreciate that, but I think there should be some
certainty as to the place or time.
The Chairman. Mr. Selser, you are here as a guest of the com-
mittee. W^e want to give your client an opportunity of having coun-
sel, but have your seat, and your objection will be overruled. Mr.
Moi^tti will answer. The question is, Of what were you convicted
the time when you got a suspended sentence ?
Mr. Moretti. Senator, if I don't remember, and if the gentleman
has it there on record, he certainly knows the answer, where I don't.
Mr. Halley. Let's see if your counsel can refresh your recollection.
This was in Passaic County in 1934. Perhaps your counsel can re-
fresh your recollection.
]\Ir. Moretti. Will you repeat that again, please ?
Mr. Halley. Passaic County in 1934.
Mr. Moretti. Passaic County in 1934? I know I have got a sus-
pended sentence, more or less around that time, after I got through
serving my time in New York, as I have admitted, but I don't remem-
ber the specific charges. I was taken out of jail in New York and I
was brought in to' jail into Passaic County, and in a matter of days
this charge was suspended against me.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 251
Now, whatever the charges were, I don't remember.
The Chairman. What does the record show ?
•Mr. Halley. The record shows aiding and abetting a lottery, and
those are the FBI records. If you or your counsel can clarify that, I
am sure the committee would be happy to hear any explanation or
any clarification.
Mr. MoRETTi, Well, suppose we take — suppose you answer the
question yourself. It may not be proper, but I don't remember; I
can't tell you when I don't remember, can I 'i
Mr. Halley. I think we will have to stand on the record.
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't want you to put me in a position where you
want me to
Mr. Halley. You were convicted, but you can't remember what
for?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; I admit that.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever know anybody by the name of Golden ?'
Mr. MoRETTi. By the name of what ?
Mr. Halley. Golden, G-o-l-d-e-n?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Halley. There are two brothers by that name; is that right?
Mr. MoRETTi. I believe there is ; yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known them ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Oh, I have known them for a good many years, sir.
Mr. Halley. What business are they in?
Mr. Moretti. What business are they in?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Moretti. I know they were in the laundry business.
Mr. Halley. Were they ever in the numbers racket ?
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry, I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of them being in the numbers
racket ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I never heard of that.
Mr. Halley. Weren't you in the numbers racket with the two
Golden brothers in 1933 and 1934?
Mr. Moretti. We are going back to the same questions, sir: you
just answered that.
The Chairman. Well, the question is, were you, Mr. Moretti ?
Mr. Moretti. Definitely not, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of a man named Frank Pf abler ?
Mr. Moretti. Frank Pf abler, yes.
Mr. Halley. He operates a night club in Passaic.
Mr. Moretti. I believe he does.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Big John Profit© ?
Mr. Moretti. Who?
Mr. Halley. Big Jim Profito ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I know him.
, Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Moretti. I have known him for years.
Mr. Halley. Weren't you indicted witli Pfahler and Profito in 1931:,.
and your brother ?
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry I can't answer that because I don't know,
as I have answered previously, sir.
Mr. Halley. You were all in court on one case, don't you recall it t
252 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
had just come out of New York jail and brought into Jersey jail. I
wasn't familiar with the developments or the happenings, which you
have the record of, and which I i-eadily admit whatever the record
discloses, I admit to.
Mr. Halley. Well, the record discloses, aiding and abetting lot-
teries. Is that what you admit to ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, I am afraid to if that is the charges on the chart.
Mr. Halley. That is what you were convicted of, is that right ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I suppose so.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that you were convicted at that time,
together with your brother and Pf abler and Profito and Harry Cula ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I am not saying that it isn't or it is.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with Pf abler ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with Profito ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley, Were you ever in business with Harry Cula ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. At no time ?
Mr. MoRETTi. At no time.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in any gambling business ?
Mr, Selser. I object to that. I think the times and places should be
specifically stated, and the generalization by counsel is improper,
unfair.
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Selser, he would know whether he has
been or not.
Mr. Selser. I advise my client not to answer the question on the
ground that it may tend to incriminate him.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question, Mr,
Moretti.
Mr. Moretti. I take advice of counsel and answer the same as the
counselor has, the ground that it may incriminate me; I refuse to
answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Very well, sir.
Mr. Halley. Before the year 1935 did you ever participate in a
lottery in the State of New Jersey ?
Mr. Moretti. I have never participated in any lottery in any State.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever participated before the year 1935 in
any gambling business in the State of New Jersey ?
Mr. Selser. I direct my witness not to answer that question on the
ground
Mr. Moretti. I cannot answer that; it is the same as before. I
can't answer the question that I don't know that you are referring to.
I have constitutional rights.
Tlie Chairman. Just a minute, Mr. Moretti. Of course, the reason
the question was asked before 1935 was that any statute of limitations
would have run on any offense prior to that,
Mr. Selser. May 1 most respectfully dispute the Senator's idea of
the law ?
The Chairman. Anyway, the witness will be directed to answer, and
he can answer or not, as he wishes.
Mr. Selser. May I make this statement in advance of his answer, on
my advice : A conspiracy, sir, is not barred by the statute of limitations
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 253
though it be originated longer than 2 years ago, if an overt act under
that conspiracy has been had within 2 years of the day of a complaint
or information and, therefore, the Senator's statement of the law is,
in my judgment, eiToneous.
I advise my client not to answer.
The Chairman. I know of no Federal law upon which any gam-
bling activity prior to 1935 in which the statute would have run ; that
is what we are concerned with.
Mr. Selser. I most respectfully differ.
The Chairman. Anyway, the objection is overruled, and you are
requested to answer.
Mr. MoRETTi. I am sorry, I will not answer that on advice of counsel,
just as he explained. After all, he is a lawyer, sir, and I am not, and
if we have a lawyer here we have to take his advice on certain matters.
The Chairman. All right, proceed.
]\Ir. Halley. Do you know Pete Laplaca ?
Mr. INIoRETTi. Yes, I do.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Laplaca ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; I know Joe Laplaca.
Mr. Halley. Have they ever been in your home ?
Mr. MoRETTi. They have been in my home; Pete Laplaca has; I
don't know whether Joe Laplaca has. I mean I don't know him that
well to say he has or he hasn't.
Mr. Halley. Have the Golden brothers ever been in your home?
Mr. IMoRETTi. The Golden brothers, yes, they have been in my home.
I have known them for years, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were they in your home in the month of August 1950 ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. Were they in your home together in the month of Aug-
ust 1950?
Mr. Moretti. I'm sorry, I don't remember. I can't answer that
truthfully because I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Well, I will ask you specifically on an afternoon dur-
ing the month of August 1950, was there a meeting in your home at
Hasbrouck Heights, N. J., attended by yourself, your brother, Pete
Laplaca, Joe Laplaca, the two Golden brothers, and others ?
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry, but that there positively could not have
happened at any time, whether it was in August 1950, or in August
1930.
Mr. Halley. Would you explain why it could not have happened ?
Mr. Moretti. It could never have happened.
Mr. Halley. Why could it not ?
Mr. Moretti. Because something like that would be fresh in any-
one's mind, even in my mind.
Mr. Halley. What you mean is that it did not happen; is that
what you are trying to say ?
Mr. Morettt. It did not happen ; that is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. It could have happened.
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr, Halley. Well, these people are all alive.
Mr. INIoRETTi. People are alive, certainly, so are we. We are alive
today, if that is what you mean.
Mr. Halley. And they could have been in your home and you are
just saying that they were not ; is that right?
254 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. JNIoRETTi. Tliat is right ; that is what I am saying.
Mr. Hallet. Do yon recall reading the newspapers or hearing
^bout this subpena serving — that this committee was serving sub-
penas on people who were conducting gambling in an aircraft plant-
in the State of New Jersey ?
Mr. Selser. I object to that.
Mr. INIoRETTi. I don't read papers.
Mr. Selser. Just a moment.
The Chairman-. That is a proper question, Mr. Selser.
Mr. Selser. What possible beariiig
The Chairman. You may not know the connection, but it is a proper
question.
Mr. Selser. That he read in newspapers — and are newspapers sup-
posed to be stating
The Chairman. Mr. Selser, I have overruled your objection.
Mr. Selser. I am sorry, sir.
Mr. MoRETTi. Answering the question, I am not a reader; my eyes
are bad, which you can see I am wearing glasses, and I don't read the
papers.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember ever hearing that this committee was
subpenaing witnesses about gambling in an aircraft company in New
Jersey ?
Mr. ISIoRETTi. No ; I don't remember ever hearing such a thing.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember ever telling anybody to get out of
sight and take a vacation so they would not be called upon as wit-
Jiesses before this Senate committee ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't remember ever saying anything like that, nev-
er remember hearing anyone saying any such thing.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember hearing your brother saying any
such thing ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I do not, sir.
Mr. Halley. Specifically, do you remember your brother saying it
to Johnny Walsh ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Definitely not ; I don't remember ever hearing anyone
saying anything like that.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Johnny Walsh ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir ; I definitely do.
Mr. Halley. Has he ever been in your home?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; he has been in my home.
Mr. Halley. Was he in your home in the month of August 1950 ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't; remember, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was he in your home this summer?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; he has been in my home this summer.
Mr. Halley. Was he ever at your home during the afternoon?
Mr. Moretti. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. It is possible?
Mr. Moretti. It is possible; yes.
Mr. Halley. That could happen?
Mr. Moretti. An^'thing could have happened.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember whether or not at the meeting during
the month of August, on an afternoon at your home, with your brother,
the Laplacas, the Golden brothers, Robert Neely, and Johnny Walsh,
your brother told Johnny Walsh or anyone else that he should give
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 255
$2,500 to each and every person who might be called upon to testify
before the Senate committee about gambling and to take a vacation
and stay out of sight ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That sounds so ridiculous, sir, I have to answer that
by saying it is impossible ; nothing like that could ever happen.
Mr. Halley. Where were you during the month of October and the
month of November 1950 ?
Mr. MoRETTi. October and November 1950 ? I took a little trip for
myself, sir.
Mr, Halley. Did that little trip have anything to do with your
having heard that this committee was serving subpenas?
Mr. MoRETTi. I am here, ain't I ?
Mr. Halley. You are here after the heat got so hot that you had
Mr. MoRETTi. AVliat heat ? It's cold weather outside. It is not hot
out there ; it is cold weather. What heat are you referring to ?
Mr. Selser. I object.
The Chairman. Have a seat, Mr. Selser ; we are trying to find out
why it was not possible to find Mr. Moretti earlier, so this is a proper
inquiry. Your objection will be overruled.
Mr. Selser. Well, I certainly object to the form of the presentation
by counsel.
Mr. INIoRETTi. I don't know of any heat.
Mr. Selser. I do not think this is a forum for arguments between
counsel and the witness.
The Chairman. Well, in an inquiry of this sort, this is not a court
proceeding ; we do not go on technical rules. We are trying to find
out why he left the State or where he went, and what the reason
for it was, so you sit down, Mr. Selser, and we will get along.
Mr. Selser. I will advise my client not to answer the question on the
ground that apparently it is an attempt to get from this man a state-
ment out of which a prosecution against the man may be had by the
committee, and I direct him not to answer the question.
The Chairman. Read the last question.
Mr. Halley. May I ref rame the question ?
The Chairinian. Certainly.
Mr. Halley. Will you state to the committee where you were be*
tween October 1 and October 15, 1950 ?
Mr. Moretti. I cannot
Mr. Halley. What State?
Mr. Moretti. I can't answer that; I can't remember where I have
been. I don't keep track of where I travel.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, may I advise the witness that this
committee has in previous cases taken the position that a statement
that a witness does not remember when the statement is obviously on its
face unbelievable, will be treated by the committee as perjurious.
Now, Mr. Moretti
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley (continuing). Did you leave the State of New Jersey
during the first 2 weeks of October 1950 ?
Mr. Moretti. Pardon me.
(There was a conference between witness and counsel.)
Mr. Moretti. I was in Jersey in October; I was home in October.
256 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Do you recall investigators for this committee coming
to your home and attempting to serve subpenas ?
Mr. IVIoRETTi. No, sir ; I don't recall that.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember investigators for this committee
going to the door of your house and trying to gain entrance?
Mr. MoRETTi. Not to my house ; no, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you in your own house ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And it is your contention that investigators of this
committee made no effort to find you at your house?
Mr. Selser. I object to that. How can "he know, sir? I object to
the question.
The Chairman. Let us see whether he knows or not, Mr. Selser.
You tell us what you know.
Mr. Selser. Answer you don't know.
Mr. Moretti. You see, I have moved from one home to another,
and you may be confused or I might be confused with the dates, just
as I have said before.
Mr. Halley. When did you move?
Mr. Moretti. I moved in the latter part of this year.
Mr. Halley. Well ; the latter part of which year ?
Mr. Moretti. This year, 1950.
Mr. Halley. How long ago ? We are still in the latter part of this
year.
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; that is 2 or 3 months ago.
Mr. Halley. You moved 2 or 3 months ago ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. From what address to what address ?
Mr. Moretti. From 269 Springfield Avenue in Hasbrouck Heights,
to Demarest, N. J. ?
Mr. Halley. Demarest, N. J. ?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What have you done with the house in Hasbrouck
Heights ?
Mr. Moretti. The house in Hasbrouck Heights was sold last month.
Mr. Halley. To whom was it sold ?
Mr. INIoRETTi. To Pascal.
Mr. Halley. What is the first name ?
Mr. MoRRETTi. I am sorry, I don't remember the first name.
Mr. Halley. Did you leave a forwarding address at the post office
when you moved to Demarest, N. J. ?
]\Ir. MoRETiT. We don't have a post office in Hasbrouck Heights.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a post office in Demarest ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, we do.
Mr. Halley. Do you receive mail in Demarest ?
Mr. ]\Ioretti. Yes. Just Demarest, N. J., that is all.
Mr. Halley. Did you receive mail at Hasbrouck Heights?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Well, how was it addressed to you ?
Mr. Moretti. Whatever mail was addressed to Hasbrouck Heights
when I would go there, I would pick it up.
INIr. Halley. And you made no effort to have your mail forwarded
to Demarest ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 257
Mr. MpRETTi. No ; didn't make no efforts for the simple reason is the
furniture and everything else was still in the home. The home was
still being occupied by me.
Mr. Halley. During the whole month of October ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Only I didn't live there.
Mr. Hallet. During the whole month of October ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. Halley. Now, when you moved to Demarest did you buy the
house in Demarest?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. When did you purchase it?
Mr. INIoRETTi. I purchased that last year.
Mr. Halley. What time last year are you referring to ?
Mr. MoRETTi. "The early part of last year, I suppose.
Mr. Halley. The early part of 1949 ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was it empty until October of this year ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, it was not emptly, exactly.
Mr. Halley. Who was living in it ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I was ; I moved back and forth.
Mr. Halley. You mean you lived in both places?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And starting in the early part of October of this year
you closed up the Hasbrouck Heights house; is that right?
INIr. Moretti. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Halley. Locked the doors?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Pulled down the shades?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And went to Demarest ; is that right ?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And you stayed in Demarest throughout the first 2
weeks of October 1950 ?
Mr. Moretti. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Halley. Did you know that this committee was trying to serve
a subpena upon you ?
Mr. Moretti. iS[o, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Halley. Do you know that the committee had asked your
brother and your brother's wife and all of your associates where you
could be found?
Mr. Moretti. No, I don't.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that you moved to Demarest and closed
up the Hasbrouck Heights house in an effort to avoid service of this
committee ?
Mr. Moretti. It is not so, sir.
Mr. Halij^y. Did you go out of the State of New Jersey during
the second 2 weeks of October 1950 ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I stayed in New York for a while, if that is
what you mean.
Mr. Halley. Where in New York ?
Mr. Moretti. Let's see — I went over and I stayed with my brother's
family — that is, my brother-in-law.
Mr. Halley. What is his name?
Mr. Moretti. His name is Marino.
258 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. Anthony Marino.
Mr. Halley. Where does he live ?
Mr. MoRETTi. He lives in the Bronx.
Mr. Halley. May we have the address?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; 2916 Dudley Avenue, Bronx, N. Y.
Mr. Halley. And you stayed at his home ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, stayed there for a few days and came back home
again.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay there ?
Mr. Moretti. A few days ; I said a few days.
Mr. Halley. Did you go anywhere else during the latter part of
October 1950?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Halley. Did vou go to any of your places of business during
the first 2 weeks of October of 1950 ?
Mr. Moretti. My places of business ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Moretti. I have no business. I don't know what you are re-
ferring to.
Mr. Halley. You have no business?
Mr. INIoRETTi. I don't know what you are referring to, sir.
Mr. Halley. Well, do you have any business?
Mr. Moretti. No, 1 don't.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, I have had businesses.
Mr. Halley. When did you last have a business ?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, this is some time ago.
Mr. Halley. A matter of years ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, a matter of years, a matter of 2 or 3 years.
Mr. Halley. How many years?
Mr. Moretti. Two or three years.
Mr. Haley. Two or three j^ears ?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What was the last business in which you engaged ?
Mr. Moretti. The last business I was engaged in was in the textile
business.
Mr. Halley. Where and under what name ?
Mr. Moretti. The Electrosol Dyeing — dyeing business.
Mr. Halley. Where was that located ?
Mr. Moretti. That was located in Paterson, N. J.
Mr. Halley. Did you have any associates in that business?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I had associates.
Mr. Halley. Who were they?
Mr. Moretti. I will have vo refer to records, names — I don't re-
member too well.
Mr. Halley. How long were you in that business ?
Mr. Moretti. Around 6 months more or less.
Mr. Halley. Did it fail or did you sell out ? How did you leave it?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I sold out.
Mr. Halley. You sold out?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What other businesses have you been in during the
last 5 years?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 259
Mr. Selser. I object to that question, and direct my witness, my
client, not to answer on the ground that it may tend to incriminate
him.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer, Mr. Moretti.
Mr. MoRETTi. What other business ?
The Chairman. What other businesses have you been in in the
last 5 years?
Mr. MoRETTi. I am sorry, sir, I will have to take advice of counsel,
and refuse to answer the question on grounds it may incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. What other legitimate businesses have you been in
the last 5 years ?
Mr. Selser. I object to it on the same grounds, and direct the wit-
ness not to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer, Mr. Moretti.
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry, I have to take the same position, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was the textile business you have just described a
legitimate business?
Mr. Selser. I object to that and direct the witness not to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer, Mr. Moretti.
Mr. Moretti. How can I answer a question of that kind, sir ?
The Chairman. Well, you can either take the counsel of your
lawyer
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I take the advice of counsel; I cannot answer
that question.
Mr. Halley. Do you know the difference between a legitimate busi-
ness and an illegitimate business ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't, I am sorry, I don't.
Mr. Selser. I object — all right.
Mr. Halley. You do not know ?
INIr. Moretti. Will you explain it to me ?
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in a linen supply business ?
Mr. Moretti. Xo, sir ; I never have been.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever connected with the U. S. Linen Sup-
ply Co.?
Mr. Moretti. I have been connected, yes; I have been connected
with them.
Mr. Halley. What was the nature of your connection ?
Mr. Moretti. Nature of my connection? The nature was to try
and get customers.
Mr. Halley. How long were you connected with them ?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, not very long.
The Chairman. How long ? One year or two years ?
Mr. Moretti. About a year, sir ; I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Would you say about 3 years ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't remember; I am sorry I cannot answer that
question ?
Mr. Halley. Can I refresh your recollection ? Was it in 1944, 1945^
and 1946?
Mr. Moretti. It might have been.
Mr. Halley. Was your brother connected with that business, too?
Mr. IMoRETTi. Pardon ?
Mr. Halley. Was your brother also connected with that business ?
Mr. Moretti. With the U. S. Linen, sir ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
260 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, he is; he still is connected with it, as far as I
know.
Mr. Halley. That is a laundry service, is that right ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And cleaning ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Laundry service.
Mr. Halley. And you were, in effect, a salesman for them ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; more or less in that capacity.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any other connections with any other
businesses in the last 5 years ?
Mr. IVIgretti. I am sorry, I cannot answer that question.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any other connections of any nature
with any legitimate businesses in the last 5 years?
Mr. MoRETTi. I am sorry I cannot answer that question, sir.
Mr. Halley. Now, were you ever connected with the B & T Trading
Co.?
Mr. Moretti. I am sori-y, I can't answer that question either.
Mr. Halley. May I ask the chairman to direct an answer to that
question ?
The Chair^ian. You are directed to answer were you ever connected
with the B & T Trading Co.
Mr. Moretti. On the advice of counsel, sir, I am sorry, I cannot
answer that question for fear it would incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever connected with the L & C Amusement
Co.?
Mr. Moretti. I have to give you the same answer, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse on the advice of counsel on the ground that
it may incriminate me, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever connected with the G & R Trading
Co.?
Mr. Moretti. The same answer, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. The same answer, on advice of counsel.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever connected with the Pal Trading Co.?
Mr. Moretti. The same answer, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse on the ground that it may incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that from July of 1949 to January of
1950 you had a 35-percent interest in the General Trading Co.?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer the question on grounds that it may
incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse, sir, on the same grounds.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joseph Doto ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, I do.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with him ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate
me, sir.
The Chahoian. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse on the same grounds.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Anthony Guarini ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I do, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 261
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. A good many years, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business with him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate
me.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse on the same gromids, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do yon know James Lynch ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any business relations with him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti, I refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Arthur Longano ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any business relations with him ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the same grounds, sir.
The Chairman. You will be directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Gerald Catena ?
Mr. MoRi^.TTi. I do, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Gerald Catena ?
Mr. Moretti. I have known Mr. Catena for some time.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business relationship with him ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the same, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that between April of 1945 and April
of 1946 you received $38,290.70 from the G & K Trading Co.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer, sir, on the ground it may incrimi-
nate me.
The Chairman. You will be directed to answer whether you re-
ceived that amount or any other amount from G & R Trading Co.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate
me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know an accountant named I. George
Goldstein?
Mr. Moretti. I have heard of him, yes ; I know him slightly.
Mr. Halley. Has he ever filed an income-tax return for any com-
pany of which you were a partner or an associate ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the gi'ounds that it might in-
criminate me.
The Chairman. Now, wait a miiuite. you will be directed to answer
that question.
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry, sir. I cannot answer that question because
it is pertaining to my constitutional rights, and I want to protect my-
self as much as I possibly can, sir.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that you received $49,000 from th.' B &:
T Trading Co. between the years 1947 and 1948 ?
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry, I refuse to answer the question.
262 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. You will be directed to answer whether you re-
ceived that amount or any amount from the
Mr. Hallet. B «& T Trading Co.
The Chairman (continuing). B & T Trading Co.
Mr. ]\IoRETTi. Well, sir, all these questions that you are asking me,
if I may say so at this time
The Chairman. Do you want to answer it at this time or not ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer, sir.
The Chairman. You understand you have been directed by the com-
mittee to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer
Mr. Selser. May I say he has been advised by counsel not to answer,
sir, on the grounds that it violates his constitutional privilege.
The Chairman. We understand the reason he gives for not answer-
ing, Mr. Selser.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Stacci ?
Mr. Moretti. Joe who ?
Mr. Halley. Stacci.
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I know Joe Stacci.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him ?
Mr, Moretti. I don't think so ; I don't remember ; I don't believe I
have had.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike Lascari ?
Mr. Moretti. Mike what ?
Mr. Halley. Lascari.
Mr. Moretti. Mike Lascari ?
Mr. Halley. L-a-s-c-a-r-i.
Mr. Moretti. I might know him ; I do not know, I am not sure. I
might know him, I might not.
Mr. Halley. Well, did you ever know a man named Yanowsky, who
was murdered in New Jersey, Charley Yanowsky?
Mr. Moretti. I don't believe I do ; no.
Mr. Halley. He was murdered July of 1948.
Mr. Moretti. No ; I don't believe I know that name.
Mr. Halley. You do not believe you know him ?
Mr. Moretti. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. You do not believe you know him ?
Mr. Moretti. No, I don't believe I know him; no.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Costello?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I know Frank Costello.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Frank Costello?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, I have known Frank Costello a good number of
years.
Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first meet him ?
Mr. ISIoRETTi. Oh, I met Mr. Costello around a race track.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Charles Binaggio?
Mr, Moretti. Charles who?
Mr. Halley. Binaggio.
Mr. ]\IoRETn. No, sir,
Mr, Halley, When did you first meet Costello ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 263
Mr. MoRETTi. Oh, a good many years ago, sir, around the race track.
Mr. Halley. Would you say at least 20 years?
Mr. MoRETTi. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. Would you say at least 20 years ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; I don't believe it is that long.
Mr. Halley. Is it longer than 10 ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Around 10, I imagine, yes ; around 10.
Mr. Halley. And you say you first met him around a race track?
Mr. ]\IoRETTi. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. Who introduced you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. My brother introduced me to him.
Mr. Halley. Your brother Willie ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And have you ever had any business dealings with
Frank Costello ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever placed bets with him, or has he ever
placed any with you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do yoa know Frank Erickson?
Mr. MoRETTi. Do I know Frank Erickson? Yes; I know Frank
Erickson,
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. IMoRETTi. I have known him for some time.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealing with him?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Abner Zwillman?
Mr. Moretti. Who?
Mr. Halley. Zwillman.
Mr. ]\Ioretti. Yes ; I know Mr. Zwillman ; yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. M'oretti. Oh, I know him for 7, 8 years, 10 years probably.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in his home ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Has he ever been in yours?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Dragna?
Mr. Moretti. Jack who?
Mr. Halley. D-r-a-g-n-a.
MV. Moretti. I don't believe I do.
Mr. Halley, He lives in California.
Mr. Moretti. No ; I don't believe I do, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Gizzo, G-i-z-z-o ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I don't remember that name.
Mr. Halley. His home is in Kansas City.
Mr. Moretti. No ; I don't think I remember him.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Charles Luciano?
Mr, Moretti, Yes; I have known Charles' Luciano,
Mr, Halley. How long have you know Charles Luciano?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, about 10, 12 years.
Mr. Halley. Have you seen him within the last 5 years?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I have not.
264 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. Have you talked to him on the telephone within the
last 5 years?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir ; I have not.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Accardo from Chicago ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Tony who?
Mr. Halley. Accardo.
M'r. MoRETTi. No ; I don't think I know that name ; no, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Cliarles Fischetti ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; I don't think I know that man.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie Pisano, who is also known
as Carfano?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think I know him, yes ; I think I know him.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vito Genovese?
Mr. MoRETTi. Who?
Mr. Halley. Vito Genovese.
Mr. MoRETTi. Vito Genovese ? No ; I don't think I know him ; no.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Profaci?
Mr. MoRETTi. Joe who ?
Mr. Halley. Profaci.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I think I know him ; yes, I think I do.
Mr. Halley. In fact, wasn't he at the wedding that your brother
had for his daughter ?
Mr. MoRETTi. He might have been, I don't know, sir.
Mr. Halley. Well, you know Joe Profaci, don't you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I said I think I know him; I answered that
question.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I may have known him for some time, but I only see
him once in a great while.
Mr. Halley. But you know him, do you not?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I admit that.
Mr. Halley. There is no doubt about that, is there ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, there is no doubt about that, no doubt about that.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Bugsy Siegel ?
Mr. MORETTI. Wlio ?
Mr. Halley. Bugsy Siegel.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I had known Bugsy Siegel, yes.
Mr. Halley. How long did you know him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Oh, around the same time, 10, 12 years.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any business relationship with
Bugsy Siegel ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know what the Mafia is ?
Mr. MoRETTi. What ?
Mr. Halley. The Mafia, M-a-f-i-a.
Mr. MoRETTi. I am sorry, I don't know what you are talking about,
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of the Mafia ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, I never have.
Mr. Halli:y. Have you ever heard that word before?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, I am sorry, I did not.
Mr. Halley. You never heard that word before in your life?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir ; I did not.
Mr. Halley. Do you read ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 265
Mr. MoRETTi. No, as I says bef pre, I don't read very much on account
of my eyes.
Mr. Halley. And you had never seen that word in print, M-a-f-i-a ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, I don't believe I have.
Mr. Halley. And it has never come to your ears ; you have never
heard that word ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. MoRETTi. Have you ever heard of the Unione Siciliano ?
Mr. MoRETTi. What?
Mr. Halley. The Unione Siciliano.
Mr. Moretti. No, I am sorry ; I never heard of that.
Mr. Halley. I had better spell it to make sure we are talking about
the same thing, U-n-i-o-n-e S-i-c-i-1-i-a-n-o.
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I never heard of it.
Mr. HiVLLEY. Never heard of that either at any time in your life?
Mr. Moretti. Never have.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Tropics Inn in Mountain
View, N. J.?
Mr. Moretti. The what, sir ?
Mr. Halij^.y. The Tropics Inn in Mountain View, N. J. ?
Mr. Moretti. No, I don't believe I have.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever inside of it ?
Mr. Moretti, Tropics Inn in Mountain View, N. J. ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Moretti. I don't believe I have, sir ; no.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in a place located at 1205 McBride
Avenue, West Paterson, N. J. ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Well, you are directed to answer it.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it may
incriminate me, sir.
Mr. Halley. Under what law do you claim that it may incriminate
you?
Mr. Selser. On the advice of counsel.
Mr. Halley. To what law are you referring ?
Mr. Selser. I will not refer to the law, sir.
Mr. Halley. You just claim in a vacuum ?
Mr. Selser. Yes. I claim there is a right to refuse to answer the
question, and I am so advising my client.
The Chairman. Well, the question is have you ever been at some
place. I do not know what Federal law that may convict him of.
Let the record show he has been directed to answer, and he refuses.
Mr. Selser. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in a building in Lodi, N. J., in which
there was a gambling establishment maintained ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that question on advice from
counsel.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in a place called the Carriage Factory
in New Jersey ?
Mr. Moretti, I refuse to answer the question on grounds that it
may incriminate me.
68958—51 — pt. 7 18
266 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. MoRETTi. On advice of counsel I take the same position.
Mr. Halley. Do you know a man named Alex Goldf ein ?
Mr. McRETTi. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. The question is whether you know Alex Goldfein
or not.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I know Alex Goldfein.
Mr, Halley. Have you ever had any business relationships with
him?
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer, sir.
Mr. Halley. Is it not the fact
The Chairman. Wait a minute, you are directed to answer that
question.
Mr. MoRETTi. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question
in that it may incriminate me, sir.
Mr. Halley. Is it not the fact that Alex Goldfein was in charge of
the help in the gambling rooms maintained by G & R Trading Co.,
the B & T Trading Co., the L & C Amusement Co., the Pal Trading
Co., and the General Trading Co. ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer that question on advice of counsel,
sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer, sir.
Mr. JNIoRETTi. On the ground it may incriminate me, I have to take
the same position.
The Chairman. Let the record show that you have been directed
and you refuse to answer.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Emanuel Schaefer?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't know whether I do or not, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you personally been active in a business in which
a crap game was maintained or operated?
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer, sir, on advice of counsel.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer, and you refuse ?
Mr. MoREi-Ti. On the same ground, sir, I refuse.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Pete Licavoli ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. Pete Licavoli.
Mr. IVIcRETTi. No, I don't think I do. I don't remember that name ;
I don't think I do, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in Tucson, Ariz. ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have never been there in your life?
Mr. MoRETTi. I never have.
Mr. Halley. And you have never been in the Stat e of Arizona ?
Mr. ISIoRETTi. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. Halley. How large a company is this linen supply company
you worked for, the U. S. Linen Supply ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I am sorry I cannot answer that because I left there
some time ago and I don't know whether they have made some expan-
sions or not; I can't answer that, sir.
Mr. Halley. How many people work there, do you remember ?
Mr. Moretti. No. I was the outside man, I don't remember; but
a number of employees were there.
Mr. ILvLLEY. IVliat did you brother do there?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 267
Mr. MoRETTi. I was never inside the plant ; I don't know. I was an
outside man ; I don't know what his authority or his duties were.
Senator Wiley. Wliat did you do outside ?
]\Ir. Halley. Senator Wiley asked you a question.
Mr. MoRETTi. I am sorry, I didn't hear.
Senator Wiley. What were your functions outside?
Mr. Moretti. I was a salesman, sir.
Senator Wiley. What did you sell ?
Mr. Moretti. I tried to get customers to sell linens, sir.
Senator Wiley. Sell anything else?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. That is all.
Mr. Halley. Why did you give up your connection with your
company ?
Mr. Moretti. Why, I had just run out of friends, I suppose, and I
could not get any more customers ; and I wasn't giving them the serv-
ice, so I figured it is best I would leave.
Mr. Halley. You mean it was an unsuccessful venture?
Mr. Moretti. I mean, yes; so far as I was concerned; I mean I
couldn't get any more customers for them.
Mr. Halley. Did you invest any money in this textile business you
were telling the committee about sometime back ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I believe I have, yes; I have invested some
money.
Mr. Halley. How much did you invest in it ?
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry ; unfortunately in the moving all my rec-
ords have been lost, and I can't remember correctly. I have invested
some money, but I can't remember what I have invested, sir.
The Chairman. Well, give us your best estimate, $5,000, $10,000.
Mr. Moretti. Well, I can't remember, sir; I can't remember. I
mean I wouldn't want to say one thing for another.
Mr. Halley. How long ago was this?
Mr. Moretti. I imagine it was 2 or 3 years ago, right after the
war.
Mr. Halley. When you gave it up did you get any money out of it
or did you lose your whole investment?
Mr. Moretti. No, I didn't lose the whole investment, that is the
reason I don't remember.
Senator Wiley. When did you lose your records ?
Mr. Moretti. Just recently, sir.
Senator Wiley. How long ago?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, I would say in the last 5 or 6 months. I looked
for them and couldn't find them.
Senator Wiley. Wliat did they consist of, one book, two books, or
what?
Mr. Moretti. Two or three books, sir.
Senator Wiley. Did you keep them yourself ?
Mr. Moretti, Yes.
Senator Wiley. And you have to have three books to keep your
records ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I mean, there might have been some other
records; that is the reason I say it was two or three books.
Senator Wiley. Have you any recollection as to your approximate
worth, as indicated by those books ?
268 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. No, I can't remember. The reason I can't remember,
as I said previously, that
Senator Wii.ey. Do you remember how much your income was
during the List year ?
Mr, MoKETTi. Do I remember what the last income was?
Senator Wiley. Yes.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I do ; I imagine so in round figures ; I do.
Senator AViley. How much?
Mr. MoRETTi. Around $70,000 ; something like that.
Senator Wiley. $70,000?
JSIr. MoRETTi. That is right, sir.
Senator Wiley. How many years have you had an income of
$70,000?
Mr. MoREiTi. Well, I don't remember because of the records being
lost, sir.
Senator Wiley. Well, you must, with that income, have some idea
as to at least the real estate that you own. You have testified here
you own two houses, and you sold one. What other real estate have
you got ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't have no other real estate.
Senator Wiley. What is that ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't have any other.
Senator Wiley. What did you do with your $70,000 per year?
Mr. Moretti. $70,000 — pardon? Will you repeat that, please?
Senator Wiley. What did you do with it, with the $70,000 that
you earned per 3^ear for a while ?
Mr. Moretti. I spent it ; I spent it, sir.
Senator Wiley. Put it into an investment, stocks, bonds?
Mr. Moretti. No, no ; I did not. I bought a horse, if that is what
you mean ; I remember that last venture.
Senator Wiley. How much did the horse cost you?
Mr. Moretti. $40,000.
Senator Wiley. $40,000 ?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Senator Wiley. Have you still got it?
Mr. Moretti. No : I sold it.
Senator Wiley. How much did you sell it for?
Mr. Moretti. The same amount, sir.
Senator Wiley. You are sure that is all you got for it?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Senator Wiley. What other investment did you make? You did
not buy a cow or a calf ?
Mr. Moretti. No; I did not. [Laughter.]
Senator Wiley. Well, the man who makes $70,000 a year ought to
have something to show for it. Don't you want to tell us where the
rest of the money has gone that you have spent?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I have a home, if that is what you mean, sir;
I have a home.
Senator Wiley. How much did your home cost?
Mr. Moretti. It cost me in the neighborhood of $50,000, $60,000.
Senator Wiley. How much did the one that you sold cost?
Mr. Moretti. I don't know. I sold it for $2Ji,000, sir.
Senator Wiley. I do not think I have any more questions.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 269
The Chairman. Where do you keep all this monej^, in a bank ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; I keep it in a bank, sir.
The Chairman. What bank do you keep it in ?
Mr. MoRETTi, I bank in the Woodridge National Bank.
The Chairman. Is that in a safety-depo.sit box or in a banking
account ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; in a bank account.
The Chairman. In your name ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
The Chairman. Is that the only bank you have ?
Mr. Moretti. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. You do not keep any money in a box ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I do not.
Mr. Halley. How do you make this money ? Have you had in the
last 3 years any legitimate sources of income ?
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry ; I refuse to answer on advice of counsel.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may in-
criminate me, sir.
Mr. Halley. Can you state any legal source of any of the $70,000
you say you earned last year ?
Mr. Moretti. I am sorry, I refuse to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman, You are directed to answer.
Mr. INIoretti. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that your actual income in 1949 was
$84,000?
Mr. Moretti. It might be. As I have said, I have lost my records
and I can't answer anything truthfully. [Laughter.]
If you have the records there, you could show
The Chairman. You mean you have difficulty in answering
accurately ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I am soriy, I can't answer accurately. Senator,
if I don't have the figures in front of me. You would not want me to
say one thing for another. I mean I don't want to.
The Chairman. Mr. Moretti, how long had you had these records
that you are talking about, keeping them for 25, 30 years ?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, no ; I don't imagine so.
The Chairman. How long had you been keeping them?
Mr. Moretti. I imagine the last 3 or 4 years or so.
The Chairman. Wliere did you keep the records ?
Mr. Moretti. They were kept in a drawer in my bedroom.
The Chairman. And you made all your entries of transactions in
those records ?
Mr. Moretti. Wliat entries do you mean, sir ?
The Chairman. I mean you put in there what you made, what you
invested in, what your profit was, things of that sort?
Mr. Moretti. Well, yes and no. I didn't keep — I am not a book-
keeper, sir, I mean, if that is what you mean ; I am not a bookkeeper,
sir.
Senator Wiley. Who kept the books ?
Mr. Moretti. I kept the books.
Senator Wiley. You mean you made the entries yourself?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
270 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. You did not have anyone else make them ?
ISIr. MORETTI. No.
Senator Wiley. And you had enough business in the last 3 or 4
years so that you — and made enough entries that you had to use three
books ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; I wouldn't say that. You asked me how many
books it was ; you didn't say it was for the business or whatever the
question was ; you asked me how many books there were, and I said
there may have been two or three books.
Senator Wiley. Might have been.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Senator Wiley. Two or three?
Mr. MoRETi^i. That is right ; two or three.
Senator Wiley. You are not sure. Was the book the size of this
one? [indicating].
Mr. Moretti. Yes; something like that.
Senator Wiley. How many pages in the book ?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, it is not a very large book. It is not a very large
book.
Senator Wiley. Well, the book I have in front of me must be 8 by
10, about that size [indicating].
Mr. Moretti. It was about that size, sir.
Senator Wiley. And you put entries in every day ?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, no; definitely not. As I say, I am not a book-
keeper.
Senator Wiley. You are not a bookkeeper. Wliat did you keep
books for then ? Why did you keep the books ?
Mr. Moretti. Pardon?
Senator Wiley. Why did you keep the books if you are not a book-
keeper?
Mr. Moretti. Well, to try and get some amount of moneys that I
made, I suppose ; I don't know why I kept books. [Laughter.]
I suppose that is the only reason, sir.
Senator Tobey. Were these books used by you in figuring up your
income-tax return to the Federal Government ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; more or less.
Senator Tobey. In other words, who made out your income tax?
Mr. Moretti. More or less for that reason, sir.
Senator Tobey. Who made out your income-tax return? Wlio
makes it out for you ?
Mr. Moretti. Who makes it out for me ?
Senator Tobey. Yes.
Mr. Moretti. A fellow by the name of Greenberg.
Senator Tobey. What is his first name?
Mr. Moretti. Abe Greenberg.
Senator Tobey. Wliere is he located?
Mr. Moretti. In Passaic.
Senator Tobey. In Passaic?
Mr. Moretti. New Jersey; yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. And do I understand you to mean that you turned
these books over to him and he therefrom got your figures for income-
tax returns?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 271
Senator Tobet. And he returned the books to you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right.
Senator Tobey. That is all.
The Chairman. Any further questions?
Ssnator Wiley. Yes. I was just getting into this. Let us get it
straight. These were books that you kej)t yourself ; is that right?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right, sir.
S?nator Wiley. Now, what w^as the nature of the entries in those
books ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer that, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer that question on advice of counsel
that it may incriminate me, sir.
Senator Wiley. Do you remember how many entries you made in
the books, say, in a month's time ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I suppose two or three, sir.
Senator Wiley. Two or three?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Senator Wiley. What was the reason for two or three books if you
only made two or three entries a month ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I can't answer that, because the reason I can't
answer that is because I don't have the books here with me.
Senator Wiley. Well, now, you are not as dumb as all that. Let
us be frank. If you only made two or three entries a month
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Senator Wiley (continuing) . Why did you need two or three books
to take care of your entries or transactions ?
Mr. Moretti. I guess I needed two or three books if I was there —
that is about all ; I can't answer any other intelligent way, sir.
Senator Wiley. You mean they were duplicates or triplicate entries ?'
Mr. Moretti. Oh. no ; definitely not, sir.
Senator Wiley. Did the books constitute an inventory in any way
of your assets ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I would not say that. I wouldn't say it was an
inventory, sir.
Senator Wiley. They constituted entries of your business transac-
tions?
Mr. Moretti. I suppose you could call it that. I mean, just as I
says, I would turn these books over to the accountant, and he would
make my income tax out of it; that is all.
Senator Wiley. Let us get it straight. Did the books constitute
entries of your business transactions ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that, sir ; refuse on the ground that
it may incriminate me, sir.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer, sir.
Mr. Moretti. C
fuse to answer, sir,
Senator Wiley. Now, how many sources did you get your moneys
from that were entered in the books ?
Mr. INIoRETTi. I refuse to answer that, sir, on advice of counsel.
The Chairman. You will be directed to answer it.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse on the same grounds, sir.
272 ORGANIZED CRIIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. Did the notations or entries that you put in the
books result from cash or result from checks or result from anything:
else? ^
Mr, MoRETTi, I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
that it may incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. MoRETTi. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer it.
Senator Wiley. Can you give any justifiable reason, if you only
made two or three entries a month, why you had to have three or two
books?
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, there might have been one book. Now that you
are making it so obvious, I mean it might have been just one book;
I don't remember. I just says two or three books, and I thought that
is what it was, and it might still have been two or three books, sir.
Senator Wiley. How old are you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I am 46 years of age, sir.
Senator Wiley. Born in America ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Born in America ; yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. What education did you have ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I didn't have very much education, sir. I left
school when I was 14 years old.
Senator Wiley. Left school ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. What did you do then ?
Mr. Moretti. I went to work, sir.
Senator Wiley. Wliere ?
Mr. Moretti. I worked in the Port Newark shipyards, sir.
Senator Wiley. Did you work for your Government ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, I did, sir.
Senator Wiley. And you think that these business transactions and
these entries that you have been in would injure you with your
Government ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't know, sir ; I can't answer that question ; I don't
know.
Senator Wiley. You are married ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I am.
Senator Wiley. When you skipped from house to house and from
house to New York did your wife go with you ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; my wife was with me.
Senator Wiley. She accompanied you all the time?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Senator Wiley. Did you take your books with you any place?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Did she have custody of those books ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; she did not.
Senator Wiley. Where did they disappear from; what house?
Mr. INIoRETTi. From the Hasbrouck Heights house, sir.
Senator Wiley. Which ?
Mr. Moretti. Hasbrouck Heights house.
Senator Wiley. Is that the one you sold ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Senator Wiley. You have no idea how they disappeared?
Mr. Moretit. No ; I am sorry I don't.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 273
Senator Wiley. You did not think they were of any consequence
to you to keep, so that you put them under lock and key anywhere?
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, when 3^ou are moving and you are running
from one house to another, there is a lot of things, I suppose, you
forget to do.
Senator Wilet. Did these books reflect the $70,000-a-year income
that you had ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, I don't know whether they did.
Senator Wiley. What ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I says I don't know whether they did or did not, sir.
Senator Wiley. And you made the entries and you don't know
whether it showed — I think the records show $84,000 now — that they
reflect that income?
Mr. Moretti. I supposed they did ; yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. You suppose they did ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I suppose they did.
Senator Wiley. Did it reflect the sources of that income?
Mr. Moretti. I suppose it did.
Senator Wiley. Did it reflect payments that you made from
receipts that you got?
Mr. Moretti. Well, what do jou mean, sir?
Senator Wiley. Did it show receipts and disbursements or receipts
and payments that you made ?
Mr. Moretti. I suppose it did.
Senator Wiley. You suppose they did ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. That was accounted for by about three entries a
month ?
Mr. Moretti. I suppose so ; yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. Well now, you do not think that is a very reasonable
statement, do you ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I am sorry if it does not seem reasonable, sir.
Senator Wiley. That is your judgment ?
Mr. Moretti, Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. That is a fair exposition of the facts to this group
here ?
Mr. Moretti. I am not trying to insult you people, don't misunder-
stand me. I am not trying to do anything like that, if that is what
you are referring to. Senator.
Senator Wiley. Didn't you keep the books in a safe in your apart-
ment ?
Mr, Moretti, No, sir.
Senator Wiley. What?
Mr, Moretti. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Did you have a safe there ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I have a safe.
Senator Wiley. Who had the combination to the safe?
Mr. Moretti. I have the combination.
Senator Wiley. Anyone else?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Well, didn't you consider these books of sufficient
significance or importance so they should be kept in a safe?
Mr. Moretti. Well, at the time I didn't think so, sir.
274 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. Well, didn't they reflect your business or your
transactions ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, they did ; yes, they did.
Senator Wiley. Yes.
Now, as a matter of fact, did they just conveniently get lost?
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; I wouldn't say that, sir.
Senator Wiley. Well, what would you say ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I have nothing to hide, sir. There is nothing for me
to conceal. Why should I conceal anything from your people?
[Laughter.]
Senator Wiley. Well, the books are concealed or lost anyway, are
they not ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, the books are lost ; yes.
Senator Wiley. Do you have any suspicion as to who would have
an interest in taking those books ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't imagine anyone should have an interest in
taking my books, sir.
Senator Tobey. If you put an ad in the New York papers some-
thing like this, "Lost, strayed, or stolen, three books containing a
record of my expenses and income for the last few years ; finder will be
suitably rewarded by returning same to Salvatore Moretti at the above
address" ; won't that be a good idea ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, I don't know whether it would be or not. I don't
know. It might be, I suppose.
Senator Tobey. Did you report it to the police?
Mr. Moretti. No, I did not.
Senator Tobey. Wasn't it important enough ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I figured that it would show up sometime. I
probably may have mislaid them; that is why I did not inform the
police about them.
Senator Wiley. Had you ever lost your books before?
Mr. Moretti. If I have lost my books before ? I have, yes ; I sup-
pose I have.
Senator Wiley. You suppose you have? Don't you know whether
you have or have not lost your books before this ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, the reason I say I suppose I have had is because
I have a habit of mislaying things, sir.
Senator Wiley. Just when did you notice that the books were mis-
laid or lost or conveniently
Mr. Moretti. When I sold my home and I checked all my belong-
ings, I found out at that time that the books were missing.
Senator Wiley. Was that about the time a subpena was out for you ?
Mr. Moretti. No, I don't think so.
Senator Wiley. Well, let us fix the date. Now, if you can fix the
month and the day or the week when you came to the conclusion the
books were lost why, perhaps, we can arrive somewhere on that state-
ment.
Now, what day did you say that you first discovered that the books
were gone?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I would say about 3 months ago.
Senator Wiley. 3 months ago?
IMr. Moretti. Yes.
Senator Wiley. When was it that you moved from the one house to
the second place?
ORGANIZED CHIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, I have moved from that one house to the
€ther — you mean furniture or what, sir?
Senator Wiley. Back and forth you moved ; did you not ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I moved back and forth, and that is the reason
I am asking you what do you mean, sir.
Senator Wiley. Well, you can determine yourself— you did not sell
that one house until about a month ago, according to your testimony?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Senator Wiley. And consequently I assume you moved the furni-
ture about a month ago, is that right ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; it is not right, sir. That is the reason I asked
the question again. It is not right, because I renovated the place
before I sold the p\ace.
Senator Wiley. When did you move your furniture?
Mr. Moretti. About 3 months ago.
Senator Wiley. All right.
Then it was that you arrived at the conclusion that the books had
been lost?
Mr. Moretti. That is right ; I could not find them.
Senator Wiley. Did you have anything to do with losing them ?
Mr. Moretti. Positively not, sir.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions?
Mr. Halley. You say you moved your furniture about 3 months
ago?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. I had understood you to say that for about a year you
were living at both houses.
Mr. Moretti. That is right ; about a year, I bought the place last
year, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you buy it furnished ?
Mr. Moretti. There was some furniture there ; yes.
Mr. Halley. So there was enough there so that you lived in it?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, yes; definitely.
Mr. Halley. During what period did you live in the new house,
after you bought it?
Mr. Moretti. I lived there last summer, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was it a summer house, primarily ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. It is not a winter home ; is that right ?
Mr. Moretti. It is a winter home now, but when I bought it, sir,
this was a summer home, and there was furniture there. I lived in
there during the summertime.
Mr. Halley. You bought it for a summer home?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Mr. Halley. When did you decide to shift your permanent resi-
dence to your summer home ?
Mr. Moretti. When the family got to like the place, and they said
it would be best for us to make that an all-year-around home, which
was last year.
Mr. Halley. Was that about the same time this committee began
to look for you to try to serve a subpena ?
Mr. Moretti. That was about last year when this all happened.
Mr. Halley. Well, you say you moved there in the fall.
Mr. Moretti. We decided to move in there.
276 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You say you did not move there until this fall.
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right. I said when we decided to move there,
to make this our all-year-around home, was last summer after the
family enjoyed the place, and we says it was best to make it an all-
year-around home, and that was last year.
Mr. Halley. And you still moved back to your Hasbrouck Heights
house and lived there for a while, is that right, after the summer?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, a little while.
Mr. Halley. Why did you do that ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, to get things straightened out ; that is the reason
I done that.
Mr, Halley. How long did you live in Hasbrouck Heights after the
summer ?
Mr. Moretti. After the summer ? I don't think I lived there very
long, sir.
Mr. Halley. And it was during that period also that you lost your
books, is that right?
Mr. Moretti. It was right after that, yes, right after that, sir.
Mr. Halley. And of course it was during August that this com-
mittee first began investigating gambling in New Jersey, isn't that
right?
Mr. Moretti. I don't know, sir ; I can't answer that.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in Duke's Tavern ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, I have been in Duke's Tavern.
Mr. Halley. Where is it?
Mr. Moretti. It is in Cliff side, N. J.
Mr. Halley. A sort of general hang-out for gamblers in New Jersey,
is it not?
Mr. Moretti. I would not say that, sir ; it is a restaurant.
Mr. Halley. Not generally open to the public though, is it?
Mr. Moretti. It certainly is so far as I know, sir.
Mr. Halley. It is one which was pretty hard to get in unless you
were known, isn't that right ?
Mr. Moretti. I wouldn't say that. As I understand, doors are open,
and I never had any difficulty getting in and out of the place, sir.
Mr. Halley. Well, you were known as a gambler in New Jersey,
were you not?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
Senator Tobey. Well, gamblers have to eat, do they not?
Mr. Selser. Is that question seriously asked ?
Senator Tobey. Gamblers have to eat.
Mr. Selser. Senator, I would not
Senator Tobey. That is universal.
Mr. Selser (continuing). I would not have thought the question
was seriously asked.
Senator Tobey. Well, you can do your own interpreting.
Mr. Halley. Did you "ever meet Frank Costello at Duke's Tavern?
Mr. Moretti, I don't believe I have.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Joe Adonis there ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, I believe I have.
Mr, Halley. Did you ever meet Longy Zwillman there?
Mr. Moretti. I don't believe I have, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have been there with your brother, of course?
Mr. Moretti. Not that I know of, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277
Mr. Halley. At Duke's you liave never been at Duke's with your
brother ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. Halley. What do you mean not that you know of ? It is either
yes or no.
Mr. MoRETTi. I say I don't know. You say that lie has; I said I
don't know.
Mr. Halley. I asked you if you had ever been at Duke's restaurant
with your brother Willie.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I have been there.
Mr. Halley. With your brother, Willie ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, I have been there.
Mr. Halley. That is what the question was.
Mr. MoRETTi. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. That is what the question was.
Mr. MoRETTi. I am sorry, I misunderstood you.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever at Duke's Tavern with Gerald Catena ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't believe I have ever been there with him.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him there ?
Mr. Moretti. No, I don't believe I have.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Zwillman there?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I don't believe I have.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Costello there?
Mr. Moretti. No, I don't believe I have.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Meyer Lansky there ?
Mr. Moretti. No, I don't believe I have either.
Mr. Halley. Or Jack Lansky ?
Mr. Moretti. No, I don't believe I have.
Mr. Halley. You have never seen any of them there ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. And you have never eaten there with them ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen Erickson there?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir; I don't believe I have.
Mr. Halley. Frank Erickson?
Mr. Moretti. I don't believe I have, sir.
Mr. Halley. You do not believe you have.
Do you know the man who owns Duke's Tavern ?
Mr. Moretti. Pardon?
Mr. Halley. Do you know the owner of Duke's Tavern?
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I do.
Mr. Halley. Lanio?
Mr. Moretti. I think that is his name ; yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Moretti. I have known him some time, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever transact business in Duke's Tavern ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever give anybody any money in Duke's
Tavern ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I never have.
Mr. Halley. Except to pay for a dinner ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever arrange to lend anybody anv money in
Duke's Tavern? . ' ^ ^
278 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir ; I never have.
Mr. Halley. Are you sure of that ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir; I am.
Mr. Halley. Did anybody ever approach you in Duke's Tavern
to ask you for a loan ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir ; I don't believe they have.
Mr. Halley. No further questions.
Senator Wiley. I would like to ask two questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right, Senator.
Senator Wiley. Now, the undisputed testimony seems to be here
that you have a very substantial income. You estimate it at $70,000 ;
I think it is conceded that it was last year $84,000.
Did any of that income come from wages ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer that question.
Senator Wiley. Did any of it come from stocks and bonds ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. Just a minute. I want to direct the witness to
answer the two previous questions.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer, on advice of counsel, sir.
Senator Wiley. Did any of it come from rents from real estate ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. You will be directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer on the grounds
Senator Wiley. Is there any which comes from dividends?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer questions.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer.
Senator Wiley. Did any of it come from any legitimate source ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on advice of
counsel.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer, sir.
Senator Wiley. Have you ever made any political contribution,
directly or indirectly, to any political candidate for Federal, State or
local office, or any office holder, Federal, State or local level ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that on the grounds it may in-
criminate me, sir.
The Chairman. You will be directed to answer, sir.
Mr. Moretti. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer.
Senator Wiley. Now, you spoke about, and the evidence seems to
be pretty definite, that from house to house you moved, and so forth.
Did you intentionally evade the service of subpenas for some time?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Did you ever make any contribution or gift to any
officer in the police department of any city or any sheriff or any other
law-enforcement official or district attorney ?
Mr. Moretti. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. Moretti. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer.
Senator Wiley. Did you understand the question? I had asked
you whether or not you had made any payment to any law-enforcement
officers, policemen, sheriffs, or the district attorney, and now you say
you refuse to answer that on the advice of counsel, is that right?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 279
Mr. MoRETTi. Sir, my counsel is here with me, and he is guiding me
in these proceedings, and I have to be advised by him how I should
answer, sir.
The Chairman. Well, you are directed to answer that question. It
is very important to this inquiry.
Mr. MoRETTi. Sir, my counsel advises me not to answer, and I have
to abide by his decision not to answer the question.
Senator Wiley. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Halley ?
Mr. Halley. Do you know Michael Auriccio ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No.
Mr. Halley. Investigator for the district attorney's office ? Do you
know the district attorney, Mr. Winne ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever made a political contribution ?
Mr. Moretti. I refuse to answer that on advice of counsel.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. Moretti. On advice of counsel I have refused to answer it.
Mr. Halley. Did you make any political contributions in the year
1950, this year?
Mr. Moretti. On advice from counsel I have to refuse to answer
the question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer that question.
Mr. Moretti. On advice of counsel I have to refuse to answer — I
have to refuse to answer, right.
The Chairman. Mr. Moretti, the three members of the committee
have conferred, and it is our opinion that Mr. Moretti has refused to
answer certain very pertinent questions in which he could not pos-
sibly have any real justification, so that we feel that we should advise
you and your witness that we expect to recommend that he be cited for
contempt.
Mr. Selser. Are we detained, or is he detained ?
The Chairman. Mr. Moretti will be detained under subpena, sub-
ject to further call. We can either call you or get in touch with you
or with Mr. Moretti when we want you for further questioning —
when we want him for further questioning.
Mr. Selser. We should be very glad to come when the committee
calls us.
The Chairman. That will be all now, Mr. Moretti.
Mr. Moretti. Thank you.
The Chairman. The committee will have a 5-minute recess. We
will resume in 5 minutes.
(Short recess.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
The chairman should have stated earlier that we are delighted to
have Congressman Heller, of New York, sit with this committee, and
we appreciate your interest in the work of this committee, Congress-
man.
Mr. Joseph Adonis, will you come around, please? Calling Mr.
Adonis, please.
Mr. Adonis, are you represented by counsel, or are you here alone?
Mr. DoTo. I have counsel here in the case.
The Chairman. Where is your counsel?
Mr. DoTO. He is here some place.
280 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Mr. Doto, do you solemnly swear the testimony
you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. DoTO. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH DOTO, ALSO KNOWN AS JOE ADONIS,
FORT LEE, N. J.
The Chairman. All right, Mr, Halley, will you proceed.
Mr. Halley. Will you state your full name ?
Mr. DoTO. Joseph Doto.
Mr. Halley, And are you known by any other name ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. What is that?
Mr, DoTO, Joe Adonis.
Mr. Halley. When did you first use the name Joe Adonis ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't recall.
Mr. Halley. Many years, though ; is that right ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes.
Mr. Halley, That is the name you are generally known by ?
Mr. DoTO-. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And have you ever used any other names ?
Mr. DoTO, Not that I recall.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever used the name Joe Aroso ?
Mr. DoTO, Might have,
Mr, Halley, You did, in fact, use it, did you not ?
Mr. Doto. I don't recall.
Mr. Halley. Weren't you, in fact, arrested in Brooklyn under the
name of James Aroso and also the name of Joseph Aroso in 1926 ?
Mr. DoTO, Possibly so,
Mr, Halley. In any event, you would not deny that you used that
name, would you; is that right?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley, Have you ever used any other name ?
Mr, DoTO. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Halley, Well, didn't you use the name Joseph De Mio ?
Mr. DoTO, I don't recall,
Mr, Halley, Now, in 1931 weren't you convicted of a Prohibition
Act violation ?
Mr. DoTO. I believe I was,
Mr, Halley. And didn't you use in that case the name Joseph
DeMio?
Mr, Doto, Very possibly,
Mr, Halley, Well, don't you know ?
Mr, DoTO, I don't recall ; I have used so many names in those minor
conflicts,
Mr. Halley, You mean in your conflicts with the law you have been
accustomed to using aliases ?
Mr, DoTO. That is right.
The Chairman. Spell De Mio.
Mr. Halley, Joseph D-e M-i-o is the name that the record shows;
is that right?
Mr. Doto, If you say so.
ORGANIZED CREME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 281
Mr. Halley. Would you say that on many occasions in conflicts
with the law you have used other aliases; is that right?
]\Ir. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Hallet. On how many occasions were you convicted of a crime ?
Mr. DoTO. On two occasions, sir, as I recall.
Mr. Hallet. What were they ?
Mr. DoTO. One for disorderly conduct.
Senator Wiley. One for what?
Mr. DoTO. Disorderly conduct, $25 fine.
Mr. Hallet. And that was in Brooklyn ?
Mr. DoTO. Eight.
Mr. Hallet. That was back in 1926 ; is that right?
Mr. DoTO. In around there, sir.
Mr. Hallet. 1927 is the correct date.
Mr. DoTO. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. Then, you were convicted in 1931, were you not, for
a prohibition violation, and fined $500?
Mr. DoTO, That is right.
Mr. Hallet. Now the record here shows one other conviction in 1931
for smuggling liquor. It probably was another count in the same
offense, I am not sure. Do you think you can straighten that out for us ?
Mr. DoTO. (Shaking his head negatively.)
Mr. Hallet. Well, the record shows that in February of 1931 you
were arrested, and then in March convicted for violation of the
National Prohibition Act, and that in November of the same year you
were convicted of a violation of the Tariff Act, and on the second
occasion fined $100.
Mr. DoTo. I don't remember that one.
Mr. Hallet. They could probably both grow out of the same offense.
Mr. DoTO. Maybe ; it is possible.
Mr. Hallet. Were you in the bootlegging business before the repeal
of prohibition ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. On the ground that it may incriminate me, I decline
to answer.
The Chairman. Well, you understand that you are directed to
answer the question ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you refuse the direction of the committee?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. You have been arrested on a great many occasions;
is that right ?
Mr. Duro. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. The record here shows in 1926, as James Aroso for
grand larceny. Would that be right?
Mr. DoTO. Dismissed ; that is right.
jMr. Hallet. And then in the same year as James Aroso for robbery.
It appears to be another offense ; it is another officer, another police
officer.
The Chairman. Answer up, Mr. Doto ; we cannot hear you. That
is correct ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes.
68958 — 51 — pt. 7 19
282 ORGANIZED CRIME EN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. And both of t'liem Avere discharged ?
Mr. DoTo. Discharged.
Mr. Hallet. Then, in the same year 1926 for grand harceny, that
woiikl appear to be the same offense, and discharged, as Joseph Aroso ;
then, in 1927 for disorderly-conduct offense, where you were fined $25
as Joseph Adonis; is that right?
Mr. DoTo. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And then in 1931 two Federal offenses under the
name of Josej^h De Mio ; is that right ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. We have been over that.
In 19o7 you were charged with assault and robbery; is that right?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And in 19J:0 with, what was that, kidnaping and ex-
tortion case ; is that right ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And that was dismissed as against you ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Your codefendant, I think, was tried and acquitted;
is that right ?
Mr. DoTO. Eight.
The Chairman. Who was the codefendant ?
]\Ir. Halley. I have it here somewhere. We have it, and we will
get to it in some detail later.
Now, Mr. Doto, what is your business ?
Mr. Doto. None at the present.
Mr. Halley. None at the present time? ^A^iat was your last
business ?
Mr. Doto. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer, Mr. Doto.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. What was your last legitimate business ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
The Chairjvian. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Are you not still connected with the Automotive Con-
veying Co. of New Jersey ?
iSIr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
IMr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know what the Automotive Conveying Co. of
New Jersey is ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Mv. Halley. I refer to a company located at 280 Gorge Road, Cliff-
side Park. N. J., known as the Automotive Conveying Co. of New
Jersey ; have you ever heard of it ?
Mr. Doto. I decline to answer it.
The Chairman. Mr. Doto, the committee is trying to make an
inquiry here, and we hate to start off your testimony with unbelievable
lack of cooperation on your part. We all know that there is such a
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 283
company. It is listed, a well-known company, and a big company.
Your connection with it is quite well known, and you persist in
refusing to even answer whether you have lieard of it or not.
Mr. DoTO. For reasons better known to me, I refuse to answer
that.
The Chairman. Well, you are directed to answer the last question.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground it might
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Is not the business of that company the conveying of
Ford automobiles from the Ford plant in Edgewater, N. J., to various
places throughout the East ?
Mr. DoTo. Are you finished?
Mr. Halley. That is the question.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Mr. Halley. You decline to answer that?
The Chairman. Well, you are directed to answer, if you know.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Could you explain to the committee how your con-
nection with the Conveying Co. for the Ford Co. could incriminate
you ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes ; if you want me to give you the reasons.
Mr. Halley. Would you, please?
Mr. DoTO. May 1 read them ? I have several reasons.
Mr. Halley. Yes.
]Mr. DoTO. I wish to state clearly why I feel that I should assert
and rely upon my constitutional privileges to refuse to be a witness
against myself.
I do this to explain the circumstances of my refusal to answer cer-
tain questions and to produce certain books and records.
At the present time criminal charges and investigations are pro-
ceeding against me in the State of New Jersey. Such charges have
also been presented against me in the State of New York. The Fed-
eral Government is engaged in an extensive investigation of my tax
returns, and of all income I have from any source.
It has been announced that my tax returns have been made avail-
able to this committee, and in turn this committee has, according
to statements in the newspapers, published and disclosed numerous
figures purporting to be my income. Statements have been repeatedly
made by members and representatives of the Federal Government
that I am a member of a Nation-wide crime syndicate.
A few moiiths ago the Federal Government issued a statement that
every United States attorney in the country had been alerted to com-
pile information to be used against me. The newspapers have carried
statements purporting to emanate from the committee that it is the
purpose of the committee to get various people by bringing them
before this committee and questioning them in such a way that they
would either give evidence which could be used against them or sub-
ject themselves to prosecution for perjury or contempt.
Under these circumstances, I feel that my presence and testimony
here are not sought for any assistance I can give this committee iii
formulating legislation, but for the purpose of obtaining from me
284 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
S()me statements which might be used against me in further prosecu-
tion.
For these reasons I respectfully claim the right not to aid the
Government directly or indirectly in prosecuting me. That is my
reasons.
Mr. Halley. Was that prepared by your counsel ?
Mr. DoTo. By both.
Mr. Halley. What do you mean, by both ?
INIr. DoTO. My counselor and I went over this carefully.
Mr. Halley. Your counsel is Mr. Corbin ?
Mr. DoTo. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And that is the statement that was prepared by him
with your collaboration ; is that correct ?
Mr. DoTo. Eight.
The Chairman. Let the record show that Mr. Corbin is here present.
If he wants to sit with his client, he has a perfect right to do. AVliere
is Mr. Corbin practicing law, where is his office ?
Mr. DoTO. 30 Broad Street, New York City.
The Chairman. 90 Broad Street ?
Mr. DoTO. 30 Broad Street.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Costello ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTO. Twenty-odd years, maybe.
Mr. Halley. Twenty-odd years ^
Mr. DoTo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Are you in any way related to him ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in a business with him ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that you were partners in the Piping
Rock Casino at Saratoga Springs from 1941 to 1942 ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it would or
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Saratoga Springs?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been at the Piping Rock Casino?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see gambling in progress at the Piping
Rock Casino?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see any people other than yourself
gambling at Piping Rock Casino?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 285
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you in Saratoga Springs in 1941 and 1942 ?
Mr. DoTO, I believe I was; yes.
Mr. Halley. And that is the period during which you say you were
in the Piping Rock Casino on some occasions ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. On how many occasions were you in the Piping Rock
Casino ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't recall.
Mr. Halley. Would you say on many occasions?
Mr. DoTO. Yes; I would say on many occasions.
]SIr. Halley. Do you know if the Arrowhead Inn is in Saratoga
Springs ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business connection or affilia-
tion with the Arrowhead Inn ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact
The Chairman. Wait a minute. You are directed to answer that
question.
Mv. DoTO. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact tliat you, during the years 1947 and
1948, were affiliated with the Arrowhead Inn in Saratoga Springs?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. You have been at the Arrowhead Inn ; is that right ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know O. K. Coakley ?
Mr. DoTO. The name doesn't mean nothing.
Mr. Halley. You do not know it?
Mr. DoTO. The name doesn't register. I might Imow the person.
Mr. Halley. Do you know a man named Lefty Clark ?
Mr. DoTO. I may have known him.
]\Ir. Halley. How long have you known Lefty Clark ?
Mr. DoTO. I would not know ; I don't know him that well.
Mr. Halley. Well, you have been in business with him, have you
not?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. What is the question ?
Mr. Halley. Whether he ever was in business with Lefty Clark.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Let us first identify who he really is.
Mv. Halley. Lefty Clark comes from Detroit ; is that not right ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know where he comes from.
Mr. Halley. And you knew him in the Miami area ?
Mr. DoTO. I have seen him around Miami ; yes.
286 ORGANIZED CREVIE IN INTERSTATE CO]VIMERCE
Mr. Halley. His name is William Bischoff, is it not?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know that name.
Mr. Halley. You know him as Lefty Clark. Have you ever seen
him at the Colonial Inn in Miami?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. Senator Wiley, you have some questions at this
point you wish to put ?
Senator Wiley. Do you know James J. Carroll, of St. Louis?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Do you know William Molasky, or William Brown,
of tlie Pioneers News Service of St. Louis ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. You are acquainted with them?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. Have you ever done any business with them?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Wiley. What was your income last year?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You will be directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I will decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Senator Wiley. Whatever that income was, did any of it come
from boolanaking, slot machines ?
Mr. DoTO. Is the question finished ?
Senator Wiley. Yes.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Senator Wiley. Does any of it come from dope peddling?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Senator Wiley. Does any of it come from organized prostitution?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Senator AYiley. Does any of it come from the numbers racket?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Senator Wiley. Have you ever made a political contribution,
directly or indirectly, to any political candidates for any Federal
office or any office holder at Federal, State, or local level ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You are directed to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
The Chairman. Mr. Doto, you are an intelligent man, apparently.
The usual process is that a question is asked, and if the chairman,
ORGANIZED CREVIE IN INTERSTATE COJVIMERCE 287
speaking for the committee, thinks it is a proper question, and you
refuse to answer it, then the chairman asks you to answer it, and then
you refuse to answer it at tlie direction of the chairman. I think we
can understand, you can understand — your counsel is present in the
room — that if a question is asked, and you refuse to answer it, unless
the chairman aslvs that the question be withdrawn, why, you can con-
sider that you have been directed and ordered to answer die question,
and that you refuse to do so ; is that satisfactory ?
j\Ir. DoTO. I did not get you at that. Senator.
Senator Wiley. Woukl it not be better, Mr, Chairman, for his coun-
sel to come to the table and advise him?
The CiiAiRMAisr. We do not want his counsel to come unless his
counsel wants to. He was invited to come and sit with his client.
Mr. Patjl Corbin. I have no objection to coming up, but I think
he is well able to take care of himself.
The Chairman. Well, we do not want to order the counsel as to
what he may do, and this is apparently their arrangement. If counsel
wants to sit in tlie back of the room and the witness here, that is all
right with the committee. We have no authority to tell you what
to do, sir.
Very well, let us proceed in the usual fashion.
Senator AViley. All right, I was talking about — do you want to tell
us whether in your income return you showed any legitimate income
from stocks ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Senator Wiley. Did you have any income from wages ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
The Chairman. You. are ordered to answer.
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to incrim-
inate me.
Senator Wiley. Or any income from bonds, rent, dividends ?
Mr, DoTO. I decline to answer.
Senator Wiley. You decline
The Chairman. As this point, let me say, that when a Senator or
counsel asks you a question, and you say you decline to answer, if the
chairman thinks it is a proper question, you will be ordered to answer,
and then you refuse, well, you understand, and is it agreeable with
you, that when a question is asked you, and you refuse to answer,
then you will consider that the chairman of the committee has ordered
or directed you to answer, and then you still refuse to answer, without
having to go through all of the ceremony all the time ?
]Mr. DoTO. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you understand that ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that agreeable with you ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. How old are you, Mr, Adonis ?
Mr, DoTO. Forty-nine.
Senator Wiley. Are you married ?
Mr. DoTO, Yes, sir.
288 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Wiley. Do you have a family ?
Mr. DoTO. Four children.
Senator Wiley. What?
Mr. DoTo. Four children.
Senat or Wiley. Four children. Wliere do you claim your home is ?
Mr. DoTo. Palisades, N. J.
Senator Wiley. And were you born in this country ?
Mr. DoTO. Passaic, N. J.
Senator Wiley. What education have you had ?
Mr. DoTO. Grammar-school education.
Senator Wiley. Did you ever make a contribution or a gift to any
officer of a police department up there or any place else?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Senator Wiley. What?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Senator Wiley. Did you ever make any gift or render any service
or favor to any police or sheriff officer or law-enforcement official up
there ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer for the same reason.
Senator Wiley. Did you ever make any such gift or payment or con-
tribution to the district attorney of any county in that territory ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Senator Wiley. This income that you returned to the Federal Gov-
ernment, did any of it come from extortion ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Senator Wiley. Do you keep books ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Senator Wiley. Have you got any books showing your income ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Senator Wiley. If you have any books, where are they located?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to in-
criminate me.
The Chairman. You understand, Mr. Doto, that the chairman is
ordering you to answer all of these questions ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Because I think they are proper questions.
Mr. DoTO. Yes.
Senator Wiley. I think you said you knew Frank Costello ; is that
right?
Mr. Doto. Right.
Senator Wiley. And you knew Frank Erickson ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes.
Senator Wiley. Have you been in business with either of them?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Senator Wiley. Do you know Longy Zwillman?
Mr. Doto. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. Have you been in business with him 1
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
ORGANIZED CRENIE IN INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 289
Senator Wiley. Do you know Jimmy Lynch ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Senator Wiley. Have you been in business with him ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to
incriminate me.
Senator Wiley. Do you mean by that that the business that you were
engaged in would be illegal under Federal law ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Senator Wiley. You mean it would be illegal under State law?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Senator Wiley. Are your books still intact ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to
incriminate me.
Senator Wiley. Have you got custody of your books ?
]Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Senator Wiley. Have you caused them to be lost or destroyed?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to ansAver on the grounds it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Senator AViley. That is all so far as I am concerned.
The Chairman. Senator Tobey, do you have any questions?
Senator Tobey. Not at this time.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Halley.
Senator Wiley has just had to leave to go to the floor of the Senate,
and the chairman, under authority of the resolution, designates Sen-
ator Tobey and the chairman as a connnittee of two to proceed with
the examination, and with the chairman having the right to swear the
witneses and to take sworn testimony.
Proceed, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any connection with the Manhattan
Cigarette Co.?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of the Manhattan Cigarette Co. ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Michael Lascare?
Mr. DoTo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Hoav long have you know Michael Lascare ?
Mr. DoTO. Many years.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business relationships with
Michael Lascare?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. You understand with respect to each of these ques-
tions, that by permitting them to stand on the record, the chairman is
understood to be ordering you to answer ?
Mr. DoTO, Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know George Uff ner ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Phil Kastel?
MV. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you known them both for many years?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. During the years 1920 to 1930, did you know both
Uffner and Kastel ?
290 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Costello cliirinn; those years?
Mr. DoTO. I don't know whether it goes back that far.
Mr. Hallet. Well, in and around 1930, did you know Frank
Costello?
Mr. DoTO. Maybe.
Mr. Halley. And in and about that time you knew George Uffner ?
Mr. DoTO. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Phil Kastel that far back ? I am re-
ferring now to 1930?
Mr. DoTO. I don't believe I did know him that far back.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Frank Erickson ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. In 1930 ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you know him in 1932 ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't recall whether I did in and around there.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in any business with Frank Erickson?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in any sweepstakes business with Frank
Erickson ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in Chicago ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Louis Greenberg?
Mr. DoTO. The name doesn't register with me ; I don't know whether
I do or not.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Al Greenberg?
]Mr. DoTO. I don't know whether I do or not.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of the Manhattan Brewery ?
Mr. DoTO. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been connected with any brewery ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. At no time ?
]\Ir. DoTO (shaking his head negatively) .
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been connected with any labor union ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any financial dealings with any
labor union ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been connected with any trade associa-
tion?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any financial dealing with any
trade association ?
Mr. DoTO. Referring to what? Just explain what a trade asso-
ciation means.
Mr. Halley. Well, I am referring to anything which is known or
was known to you as a trade association, a group of people in a busi-
ness, to form an association; they are generally known as trade
associations.
ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE CO^IMERCE 291
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of the Illinois Trade Association ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Hallet. Have you ever had any business dealings with the
Illinois Trade Association ?
Mr. DoTO, I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Hallet. Have you ever heard of the Kings County Buick Co. ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Have you ever had any business dealings with them ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know Ralph Conte ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTo. Many years.
Mr. Hallet. Have you ever had any business relationships with
Ralph Conte?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Hallet. Is it not a fact that during the postwar years you
and Ralph Conte made arrangements for a great many people to
receive automobiles from the Kings County Buick Co. ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever recommend to the Kings County Buick
Co. that any individual be given the opportunity to purchase a Buick
automobile ?
Mr, DoTo. I decline to answer on the grounds
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever recommend a customer to the Kinga
County Buick Co. ?
JNIr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know Lucky Luciano ?
ISIr. Doto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Charlie "Lucky" Luciano ?
Mr. Doto. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Doto. Twenty-odd years, I would say.
Mr. Hallet. When did you last talk to him ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
]\Ir. Hallet. Have you had a telephone conversation with Charlie
"Lucky" Luciano within the last 2 years ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Have you talked to him within the last 2 years ?
ISIr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever see Charlie "Luckv" Luciano in Habana,
Cuba?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
292 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him in Italy ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Wlien you saw liim in Habana, Cuba, wliat did you
talk about?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any business dealings with Luciano?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Jack Lansky ? You know
him, of course ?
^h\ DoTO. Yes, sir ; many years.
INIr. Halley. ]Many years and ISIeyer Lansky ?
Mr. DoTO. Many years.
]Mr. Halley. Have you been associated with them in businesses ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Willie Moretti ?
Mr. DoTO. Many years.
Mr. Halley. And Salvatore Moretti ?
Mr. DoTo. Many years.
Mr. Halley. James Eutkin ?
Mr. DoTO. Many years.
Mr. Halley. Gerald Catena ?
Mr. DoTO. Many years.
Mr. Halley. Have you had business relationships with any of them ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Arthur Gruening ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes', sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you had business relationships with him ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. You know Salvatore Moretti ? He just testified, and
you have known him for many years ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any business relationships with him?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Arthur Longano?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTO. Ten years about.
Mr. Halley. Going back to Luciano, have you ever sent him any
sums of money?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. At no time?
Mr. DoTo. At no time.
Mr. Halley. Directly or indirectly?
Mr. DoTO. Eight.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any corres])ondenoe with him in the last
3 years ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 293
Mr. Halley. Have you written to him ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir,
Mr. Halley. Has he w ritten to you ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you sent him messages directly or indirectly
through other people?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Has he sent them to you ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Now, going on, do you know Abner Zwillman ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTO. Twenty years or better.
Mr. Halley. Is he connected with this Manhattan Cigarette Co.
now?
Mr. DoTO. I would not know, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in any business venture with Abner
Zwillman ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Dragna?
Mr. DoTO. I don't know as I do or not.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Bugsy Siegel ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long did you know him ?
Mr. DoTO. Twenty years or so.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any business relationship with
him?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to incrim-
inate me.
Mr. Halley. What was his business ?
Mr. DoTO. How would I know ?
Mr. Halley. I am sorry ; I did not hear you.
Mr. DoTO. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. He was a gambler, was he not ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mickey Cohen ?
Mr. DoTO. Who?"
Mr. Halley. Mickey Cohen.
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Sica ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't know whether I do or not. The name doesn't mean
anything.
Mr. Halley. He lives in California.
Do you know Charley Atratta?
Mr. DoTO. I don't know whether I do or not.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Charles Fischetti ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTO. Well, we came from Brooklyn together ; 35, 40 years.
Mr. Halley. Did you grow up together ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. But you knew him 35 or 40 years ago?
294 ORGANIZED CREVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DoTO. I knew him as a boy around there.
Mr, Halley. Did you know his brothers, too ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Rocco?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Little Augie Pisano ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTo. Oh, a long time.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Virginia Hill ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Mafia ?
Mr. DoTO. I have heard of it.
Mr. Halley. I am sorry ; I did not hear you.
Mr. DoTO. I have heard of it.
Mr. Halley. Can you tell the committee what it is ?
Mr. DoTO. I would not have any idea.
Mr. Halley. In what connections have you heard of it ?
Mr. DoTO. By reading it in the newspapers.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any connection with the Mafia your-
self?
Mr. DoTO. I don't know what it is.
Mr. Halley. Have you read in the newspapers that it is a secret
organization ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And have you ever known any persons whom you
believed to be membere of such a secret organization ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Are you a member of any secret organization ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever a member of any secret organization?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Hali.ey. Do you believe that such a thing as the Mafia exists ?
Mr. DoTO. I am not a judge of that — I am no judge of that; I
wouldn't — I don't qualify to answer that question,
Mr. Halley. Well, witnesses before this committee have testified,
if you don't mind my making a statement
Mr. DoTO. Go ahead.
Mr. Halley (continuing). By way of explanation that in their
homes, in various neighborhoods where people of Sicilian descent live,
they have heard people talk of the Mafia as an old Sicilian organiza-
tion. Have you never heard of it ?
Mr. DoTO. I am not a Sicilian, so it would not be spoken in my
home.
Mr. Halley. Have you known people of Sicilian descent?
Mr. DoTO. I have known a lot of Sicilians.
Mr. Halley. And have you never heard of the Mafia ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir; outside of what I read in the newspapers in recent
years.
Mr. Halley. Is it your opinion it is entirely fictitious ?
Mr. DoTo. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You do not believe there is any such thing ?
Mr. DoTo. I do not believe so ; that is my humble opinion.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 295
Mr. Halley. You have never heard of it from any person whom you
have known, as a friend or an associate ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Would those same answers apply to the Unione
Siciliano?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have never heard of such an organization either ?
Mr. DoTO. Just from reading of it.
Mr. Halley. Even as a fraternal organization ?
Mr. DoTO. Well, at times it has been referred to as a fraternal
organization.
Mr. Halley. Well, there is such an organization; is there not?
Mr. DoTO. From the newspapers ; I am only quoting from the press.
Mr. Halley. Haven't you ever heard of such a fraternal organiza-
tion in Brooklyn ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Unione Siciliano ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You never belonged to it ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever know anybody who did belong to the
Unione Siciliano in Brooklyn ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joseph Prof aci ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTO. Many years.
Mr. Halley. How did you first meet him ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't recall it.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ? What do you mean
by many years?
Mr. DoTO. Maybe 15, 20 years.
Mr. Halley. What has been the nature of your relationships?
Mr. DoTO. We have nothing in common; just a slight introduction,
casual acquaintance.
Mr. Halley. How many times would you say you have seen him
in the last 15 years ?
Mr. DoTO. 1 couldn't recall.
Mr. Halley. More than once?
Mr. DoTO. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. And did you see him at least once a year at least that
long ?
Mr. DoTO. Maybe that.
Mr. Halley. Do you see him more than once a year ?
Mr. DoTO. I would not say so.
Mr. Halley. You would not say so ?
Mr. DoTO. No.
Mr. Halley. When did you last see him ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't recall.
Mv. Halley. Did you see him in the year 1950 ?
Mr, DoTO. I believe I did.
Mr. Halley. Where?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Halley. Search your memory a little bit.
296 ORGANIZED CRIAIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DoTO. Well, we have iiothiiio; in common with this gentleman
3'ou speak of, so I don't know where I met him, and how. We have
nothing whatsoever in common.
Mr. Halley. What do yon talk about when you see him?
Mr. DoTO. Greetings of the day.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been alone with him?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
INIr. Halley. You have been with other people ?
Mr. DoTO. People around.
Mr. Halley. Who were some of the people ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't recall who they have been at present.
Mr. Halley. Well, the last once or twice you met him, who were
some of the people?
Mr. DoTo. I can't recall them.
Mr, Halley. You cannot recall anybody who was with you?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. And you cannot recall anything that you ever said to
him ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in his home ?
Mr. Doro. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was he ever in your home?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him in the home of Willie Moretti?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you at the wedding of Mr. Moretti's daughter?"
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You were?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was Mr. Profaci there?
Mr. DoTo. I wouldn't know^ ; there was a lot of people there.
Mr. Halley. Was Frank Costello?
Mr. DoTO, I wouldn't know ; I believe he was ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vito Genovese?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Doro. Fifteen or twenty years; fifteen or twenty years.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any business relationships with him?'
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any business relationships with Pro-
faci?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Max Stark ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTO. Ten years or better.
]\Ir. Halley. Have you had business relationships with him?
Mr. DoTO. I decline on the grounds tliat it might tend to incnmi-
nate me.
Mr. Halley. Did j^ou ever give him any checks to cash?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to.
incriminate me.
]\Ir. Halley. Did vou know Joe JNIassei ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 297
Mr. DoTo. Who?
jNIr. Halley. Joe Massei ?
Mr. DoTO. The name doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Halley. Did yon know a man named Slazzeroni ?
Mr. DoTO. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. Do you know a man by the name of Howard M.
Stack?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, slightly.
Mr. Halley. Wlio is he?
Mr. DoTO. He is just a man as far as I am concerned.
Mr. Halley. Just a man? Well, what is the nature of your ac-
quaintance with him?
Mr. DoTo. Just slightly.
Mr. Halley. How did you meet him ?
Mr. DoTO. Mere introduction.
Mr. Halley. Who introduced you ?
Mr. DoTo. I don't recall at the present time.
Mr. Halley. "Wlien did you meet liim ?
Mr. DoTO. Several years ago.
Mr. Halley. Did you meet him as far back as 1945 ?
Mr. DoTO. Maybe before then.
Mr, Halley. Did you know him in 1946 ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever owned any race horses?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
]\Ir. Halley. Did you ever own any tlu^ough any nominee or in-
directly ?
Mr. DoTO. What do you mean nominee?
Mr. Hallp:y. Did you ever ask anybody else to buy race horses
for you ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever ask Howard M. Stack to purchase race
horses for you?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Isn't it a fact that Stack bought 13 race horses from
Willie Moretti in 1946 ? Do you Imow that ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr. Halley. Didn't he buy those horses for you ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vincent Aiello ?
Mr. DoTO. Who?'
Mr. Halley. Vincent Aiello.
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him?
Mr. DoTo. Twenty years or so.
Mr. Halley. What is his business?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
68958—51 — pt. 7 20
298 ORGANIZED CREME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
lilr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
jNIr. Halley. Now, do you know Paul Bonadio ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir. .
Mr. Halley. And is he not the vice president and treasurer of this
Automotive Conveying Co. of New Jersey ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Paul Bonadio ?
Mr. DoTO. Twenty-five or thirty years.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any business dealings with him ?
Mr. DoTo. I decline te answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Charles Chirri?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir — 20 years or better.
Mr. Halley. Has he ever worked for you?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
j\lr. H \lley. Is he not an officer of the Automotive Conveying Co.
of New Jersey ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you not recently suggested to the Ford Motor
Co. that you would be willing to sell your stock in the Automotive
Conveying Co. of New Jersey ?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I desire to put into the
record a letter from the Ford Motor Co. signed by John Bugas, vice
president in charge of industrial relations.
The Chairman. That will be made a part of the record.
Mr. Halley. Dated December 11, and addressed to you.
The CiiAiR:\rAX. It will be so made a part of the record.
(The letter referred to is identified as exhibit No. 7, and reads as
follows:)
Ford ]\Iotor Co.,
Dearborn, Mich., December 11, 1950.
Hon. ESTES Kefauver,
Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C.
Dear Senator Kefauvkr: Referring to onr conversation of Friday, I respect-
fully submit for the consideration of your committee tlie following information :
For some time it has been a matter of consideral)le cdncern to us that .loseph
Doto, alias Joe Adonis, is one of the principal stoekhdlders of Automotive Con-
veying Co. of New Jersey, Inc. This is the trucking company which transports
built-up automobiles out of our Edgewater, N. J., plant.
Automotive Conveying Co. has hauled automobiles from Edgewater for at
least 1.5 years. The Ford Motor Co. representatives responsible for the original
arrangement are not now employed by our company. Automotive Conveying Co.
is certificated as a common carrier by the Interstate Commerce Commission,
ORGANIZED CRDvIE EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 299
and is the only motor carrier authorized to convey automobiles into the areas in
which our Edgewater vehicles are delivered. It is not feasible to transport our
cars by rail in these areas. Therefore, we have no alternative but to do busi-
ness with Automotive Conveying Co.
We have been discussing with another carrier the possibility of its applying
to the Interstate Commerce Commission for authority to convey automobiles in
the Edgewater area. We would, of course, support such an application. Our
counsel has discussed this proposal with legal representatives of the Interstate
Commerce Commission. We are informed, however, that it is not at all certain
that the Commission could act favorably upon the application. Under the ap-
plicable statutes, rules, and regulations, the Commission must act on the basis
of "litness to provide service" and is not authorized to base its action on the char-
acter or reputation of a stockholder of a presently certificated carrier.
There is also the possibility that another carrier might be induced to purchase
Automotive Conveying Co. This is under discussion. In this connection, it ap-
pears to have come to the attention of the stockholders of Automotive Conveying
Co. that we were concerned about the situation. Recently, we were approached
by one of the stockholders who stated, apparently with the authority of Mr.
Doto, that Mr. Doto would be willing to sell his stock to the other stockholders,
and asked whether this would be satisfactory to Ford Motor Co. For obvioua
reasons, we refused to commit ourselves on this proposal.
For your information, we have discussed this entire problem with officials of
the State of New Jersey. We have assured them of our desire to terminate aa
soon as possible any connection between Ford Motor Co. and Mr. Adonis.
Very truly yours,
John S. Bttgas,
Vice President, Industrial Relations.
Mr. Halley. I would like to read the following paragraph :
For some time it has been a matter of considerable concern to us that Joseph
Doto, alias Joe Adonis, is one of the principal stockholders of Automotive Con-
veying Co. of New Jersey, Inc. This is the trucking company which transports
built-up automobiles out of our Edgewater, N. J., plant.
Mr, Doto, how do you feel that your connection with the Automotive
Conveying Co. can incriminate you ?
Mr. Doto. Well, I gave a reason before in such a statement and I
don't care to elaborate on it. Any source of income might incrimi-
nate me.
]Mr. Halley. That is a legitimate business, is it not ?
Mr. Doto. I believe it is.
Mr. Halley. And has it ever been charged that your connection
with it is to use strong-arm methods in connection with the delivery of
automobiles ?
Mr. DoTO. I didn't answer the question; I declined to answer my
connection with it.
Mr. Halley. You do not want to talk about it at all ?
Mr. Doto. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not any of the competing
automobile trucking companies in New Jersey would care to bid
against you for that business ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Is Bonadio related to you ?
Mr. Doto. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Paul Bandoni — I am sorry, that is Bonadio, '
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir,
Mr. Halley. He is not related to you ?
Mr, DoTo. No, sir.
300 ORGANIZED CRniE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. There is another letter here from the Ford Motor Co.,
dated October 20, 1950, addressed to the cliief investigator, Mr. H. G.
Robinson, which I would otFer likewise.
The Chairman. It will be made a part of the record, following Mr.
Doto's testimony.
Mr. Halley. And a letter from Automotive Conveying Co. of New
Jersey, signed by Paul Banadio, vice president and treasurer.
The Chairjni 'wX. It will be made a part of the record.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Harry Bennett of the Ford Motor Co.?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
• Mr. Halley. Never met him?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir,
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear — I believe you testified that you
had heard of the Colonial Inn in Miami Beach; is that right?
Mr. DoTO. What is that?
Mr. Halley. Colonial Beach Inn in Miami Beach — that you have
heard of it?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And you state tliat you have been in those premises
of the Colonial Inn?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And while there, did you ever see Jack Lansky?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. While there did you ever see George Sablo?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Or Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. DoTo, I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Or Frank Erickson ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Or Bert Riggs ?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Or Claude Littoral ?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Or Vincent Aiello ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Or S. L. Bratt, Sammy Bratt?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the gi'ound that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Or Richard Melvin?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that they were all partners in the
Colonial Inn?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground
Mr. Haley. Including yourself ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
ORGANIZED CRIJVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 301
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that you had a 15-percent interest in
the Colonial Inn ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the Club Boheme?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Or the Green Acres Club ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And did you ever see Lefty Clark whom we were
talking about before there ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Lefty Clark at the Arrowhead Inn
at Saratoga?
Mr. DoTO. I don't recall.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that you and Lefty Clark were part-
ners in the Arrowhead Inn ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that you and Meyer Lansky were
partners at the Arrowhead Inn ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you a partner at the Green Acres Club ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
<;riminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you a partner at the Club Boheme ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the New York crap game located
at the Club Boheme ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Isn't it a fact that was a big crap game that Lefty
Clark ran ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. You originally lived in Brooklyn, is that right?
jSIr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And when did you move to New Jersey ?
Mr, DoTO. When ? I believe it was 1944.
Mr. Halley. 1941?
Mr.DoTO. 1944.
Mr. Halley. 1944.
Up to that time you were continuously a resident of Brooklyn ?
Mf . DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you known as the rackets boss of Brooklyn ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that it might tend
to incriminate me.
]\Ir. Halley. You read about that in the papers, though, did you
not?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hailey. Was it true ?
302 ORGANIZED CRI]\IE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Ml'. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been connected with any bookmaking
activities in Brooklyn?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the grounds it might tend to in-
criminate me.
]\Ir. Halley. How do you earn your living, Mr. Adonis ?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you any legitimate business ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been engaged in a legitimate business?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer for the same reason.
JNIr. Halley. Have you ever been in the narcotics business ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
]Mr. Halley. Have you ever been connected with it?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever financed anybody who was in the
narcotics business?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Why did you move to Jersey ?
Mr. DoTO. I like the climate there better. [Laughter.]
Mr. Halley. Was it cooler than Brooklyn?
Mr. DoTO. That was about 300 feet above sea level.
Mr. Halley. Not quite as hot as in Brooklyn, is that the point you
are making?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Senator Tobey. Well a tree grows there. [Laughter.]
Mr. Halley. The authorities were making it rather uncomfortable
for you to operate in Brooklyn, is that right?
Mr. DoT(». I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. After living in Brooklyn though all your life up to
1944 you shifted your activities over to New Jersey.
Mr. DoTo. I moved to New Jersey.
Mr. Halley. Did you conduct any business in New Jersey ?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any business in Habana ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. HalivEy. Were you ever in a gambling business at the Jockey
Club in Habana?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend tb in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Wlien you moved to New Jersey, you purchased a
house?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Had you owned the house in Brooklyn ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You sold the Brooklyn house ?
Mr. DoTo. Sold the Brooklyn house and bought the Jersey housa
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 303
Mr. Halley. Who handled the transaction in New Jersey, your
lawyer ?
Mr. DoTO. A fellow by the name of Morini.
Mv. Halley. He was the mayor of Cliff side, N"._ J. ?
Mr. DoTO. I do not know who he was; he was just a lawyer recom-
mended by the real-estate agent.
Mr. Halley. And turned out to be the mayor?
Mr. DoTO. Unfortunately it did.
Mr. Halley. Unfortunately? Why do you say "unfortunately"?
Mr. DoTO. Well, he is not the mayor any more. [Laughter.]
Mr. Halley. You mean he was at that time, is that right?
Mr. DoTO. I didn't know it at that time.
Mr. Halley. How long did he continue being the mayor?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know ; a few years later.
Mr, Halley. A few years.
Now, during those years you operated the various gambling estab-
lislunents we have been talking about, is that not correct?
Mr. Doto. What is that?
Mr. Halley. I say that was the same years during which you op-
erated the various gambling establishments which we have been talk-
ing about, is it not?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might incriminate
me.
Mr. Halley. Let us be specific. Did you ever hear of the G. & R.
Trading Co.?
]\Ir. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the L. & C. Amusement Co. ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the B. & T. Trading Co.?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Pal Trading Co. ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the L. & L. Trading Co. ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might incriminate
me.
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Doto, when you decline to answer, we
will assume that it is on the ground it might tend to incriminate you
unless you specify some other gi'ound.
Mr. i)oTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley, Did you ever hear of the Plantation Club in Hallan-
dale, Fla.?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have an interest in that business ?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in business there with Vincent Aiello,
alias Jimmy Blue Eyes ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
304 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley, Is it not a fact that durino: the years 1944 to 1950 you
had interests in various fjambling houses in the State of New Jersey
and the State of New York and in the State of Florida?
Mr, DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any investments in Las Vegas,
Nev.?
Mr, DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr, Halley, Were you ever in Hot Springs ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. When were you last there ?
Mr. DoTo. Last spring some time.
Mr. Halley. This year, you mean ?
Mr. DoTO. This year, 1950,
Mr. Halley. And you go there pretty much every year ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. When were you there last before that ?
Mr. DoTO. Maybe 3, 4 years before that.
Mr. Halley. Do you go there for business purposes ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Purely for recreation, rest ?
Mr. DoTO. Baths, health.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever attended a business meeting at Hot
Springs ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You were not in Hot Springs in 1935 ?
Mr. DoTO. I would not recall that far back.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever there with Lucky Luciano ?
Mr. DoTO, I wouldn't recall whether I was or not, or been there at
the same time ; I couldn't recall it.
Mr. Halley. Could you recall whether you ever attended a meeting
in Hot Springs with Lucky Luciano in 1935 ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir; not that I can recall; I never go to meetings of
that nature.
Mr. Halley. You never go to meetings? Do you recall whether
Lucky Luciano called a meeting in 1935 with gamblers from all over
the country, and racketeers?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr. Halley. Weren't you there ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You are sure of that ?
]\Ir. DoTo. Positive, now that I am thinking about it. I was not
there in 1935.
Mr. Halley. Can you think of whether there was such a meeting
at any time in 1935, perhaps about a year or so earlier or later?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley, You think there was no such meeting ?
Mr. DoTo. That is my thought.
Mr. Halley. You are sure of that ?
Mr. DoTO. That is my thought; it is my opinion. There might
have been.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 305
Mr. Hai.ley. Isn't it a fact that Luciano called a meeting that was
held at Hot Springs, in which the point was made by Luciano that
there was too much disorganization in the various rackets, and they
had to be assigned to various people in order to avoid further con-
fusion and warfare among the different gangs ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of such a meeting?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Nobody ever mentioned it to you ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. And you are quite sure you weren't there ?
Mr. DoTO. Positive.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever attend such a meeting at any other place,
other than Hot Springs ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Or hear of such a meeting ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of a division of territories among
the various racketeers and gangsters?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have never heard that ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Well, how does it function, if you know; how do
certain bookmakers function in certain areas without a molestation
from other
Mr. DoTO. I would not know, sir; I am not an authority on that.
Mr. Halley. You would not know that ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
]Mr. Halli:y. Have you ever been in the bookmaking business ?
]\Ir. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in the numbers or policy business?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Halley. And you also decline to say whether you have been in
a legitimate business; is that right?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. For the same reason ?
Mr. DoTO. For the same reasons.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Artie Samish ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, I do.
Mr. Halley. Was he in Hot Springs at the same time you were
there this year?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. He occupied the room directly above yours; is that
not right?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know ; I never went to his room.
Mr. Halley. Well, you saw him there, did you not?
Mr. DoTO. I saw him in Hot Springs.
Mr. Halley. Did you have any conferences with him?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long were you there ?
Mr. DoTO. About 3 weeks.
306 ORGANIZED CRIIVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. And how long was he there ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know whether he cfime before or after I did.
Mr. Hat.ley. Did you have dinner with him while you were there,
any meals ?
Mr. DoTO. No. sir.
Mr. Halley. You talked to him ?
Mr. DoTO. Greetin2:s of the day.
Mr. Halley. Did you have any conversations of any longer
duration ?
JNIr. DoTO. Just general talk.
Mr. Halley. General talk ? When did you first meet Samish ?
Mr. DoTO. Four or five years ago.
Mr. Halley. Under what circumstances?
Mr. DoTO. Strictly social, an introduction.
Mr. Halley, And no business relationships at all ?
Mr! DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you any interest in any liquor business ?
Mr. DoTO. Interest in what ?
Mr. Halley. In any liquor business?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Friedlander in Miami ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him?
Mr. DoTO. Not too long, 4 or 5 years.
Mr. Halley. Have you had business dealings with him?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you have occasion to telephone him while you
were in Hot Springs ?
Mr. DoTO. Telephone who?
Mr. Halley. Friedlander.
Mr. DoTO. Not that I recall.
Mr. Halley. Who was E. McGrath ?
Mr. DoTO. He is a friend of mine.
Mr. Halley. Was he in Hot Springs with you ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Is he in any business with you ?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. You had a suite together, isn't that right?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Have you any idea what his business and Jack Fried-
lander's might have been ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Halley. Friedlander is a well-known gambler in Miami, is
he not?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know whether lie is or not.
Mr. Halley. You must have some idea of whether he is a gambler
or not ? Don't you have any idea at all ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Some time ago the chairman asked about the details
of this indictment you had in 1932 with Sam Gasberg. Do you
remember that ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 307
Mr. DoTO. That wasn't 1932.
Mr. Hallet. 1937, was it not?
Mr. DoTO. 1939, I believe.
Mr. Halley. We can check the record ; 1910 — you are riglit, 1939.
Mr. DoTO. 1939, 1940.
Mr. Halley. What were the circumstances of that, do you re-
member ?
Mr. DoTO. I was indicted.
Mr. Halley. Well, you were indicted for an alleged kidnaping and
extortion of Isadore Luff.
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Luff ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
' Mr. Halley. Had he come to you to settle some dispute ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to in-
criminate me.
Mr. Halley. And is it not the fact that Luff and a man named Isaac
Wapinsky were severely beaten at that time ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know whether it was a fact or not.
Mr. Halley. It was so charged, was it not?
Mr. DoTo. It was so charged ; yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And that they were held in a house for about 3 days,
is that right ?
Mr. DoTO. That was the charge.
Mr. Halley. Did you have anything to do with that ?
Mr.-DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to incrim-
inate me. The record will speak for itself if you have it before you.
I was dismissed — the indictment was dismissed.
Mr. Halley. The indictment was dismissed.
Mr. DoTO. That is right, on the request of the prosecutor.
Mr. Halley. Wasn't it a fact that Luff and Wapinsky came to you
in an effort to get a dispute settled at about that time ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't recall these things.
Mr. Halley. Well, they were having a dispute with Gasberg, were
they not?
Mr. DoTO. Maybe they were ; I didn't know anything about it.
Mr. Halley. And didn't they come to you to try to get the thing
worked out ?
Mr. DoTO. Not that I recall.
Mr. Halley. Well, did any of them come to you for advice at that
time.
Mr. DoTO. It's too far back ; those things were immaterial.
Mr. Halley. Well, is it not a fact that Luff came to you and sought
your help ?
Mr. DoTO. Not that I can recall.
Mr. Halley. He claimed that Gasberg owed him some money in
connection with something?
Mr. DoTO. I can't help what he claimed.
Mr. Halley. Did he not?
Mr. DoTO. You would have to ask him.
Mr. Halley. Didn't he came to you and tell you that?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. He did not?
308 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Weren't you sought to be the arbitrator of the dispute
between Luff and Gasberg?
Mr. DoTo. Not that I recall. Any dispute, arbitration, I don't recall
any such thing.
Mr. HaIoLey. You had known both of them though ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And you had been talking to them at about the time
of the alleged kidnapping, is that right?
Mr. DoTO. When was that kidnapping that was supposed to have
happened ?
Mr. Halley. I think it w^as in 1939, was it not ?
Mr. DoTo. No ; way back before that.
MV. Halley. The arrest was in 1939, but you were a fugitive for
some time, were you not?
Mr. DoTO. I was not; never in my life.
Mr. Halley. Well, they couldn't find you for some time, could they,,
for that?
Mr. DoTO. If your record speaks for itself
Mr. Halley. Well, you can answ^er the question, either you were
or you were not.
Mr. DoTO. I was never a fugitive, not to my knowledge.
Mr. Halley. Well, weren't you out of the State of New York for
some period before you were finally picked up on the kidnapping
charge ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir. As soon as I heard about it I came in on it.
Mr. Halley. When did you first hear about it ?
Mr. DoTO. A few days before I walked into Mr. Amen's office.
Mr. Halley. Would you say that the same thing would apply here,
that is, the first time when you heard that this committee's efforts were
being expended to serve a subpena on you, you came in?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. That is not so?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
MV. Halley. Were j'ou trying to avoid service of this committee's
subpena ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Where were you during the month of October 1950?
Mr. DoTO. I w^as' around ; home all the time.
Mr. Halley. Around where?
Mr. DoTO. At my home.
Senator Tobey. Just a minute. You were speaking of this fall?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. Well, your wife came before us in New York and
testified to us under oath
Mr. DoTo. My wife did not come before you. Senator.
Senator Tobey. I beg your pardon ; excuse me, please.
Mr. DoTO. That is all right, Senator.
Mr. Halley. We went so far as to subpena your wife in an effort
to get her to tell us where you were, and it turned out she was sick in
a neighbor's apartment.
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 309
Mr. Hallet. All tliat time, didn't you hear that this committee was
trying to serve a subpena on you ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Why didn't you appear ?
Mr. DoTO. I didn't have the subpena.
Mr. Halley. Before that service? You knew that we were sending
investigators to your house practically daily to find you ?
Mr. DoTO. Oh, no. Unfortimately, we were missing one another.
I never ducked them.
Mr. Halley. That was not pure accident, though, was it?
Mr. DoTO. It might have been.
Mr. Halley. Well, you were ducking, were you not?
Mr. DoTO. I was not.
Mr. Halley. You never ducked our subpena server ?
Mr. DoTO. No.
Mr. Halley. You did not make yourself scarce ?
Mr. DoTO. I did not.
Mr. Hallet. Didn't I have to negotiate for several weeks even after
you were arrested in New Jersey for getting you to come in here and
accept the subpena?
Mr. DoTO. Well, your men couldn't even get me when I walked into
the court in the State of New Jersey,
Mr. Halley. Well, they had their reasons for not doing it there.
I spoke to your counsel.
Mr. DoTO. I didn't know their reasons.
Mr. Halley. Didn't your counsel come to you and say that I was
trying to serve a subpena on you ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And he got word back to me that you did not wish to
accept it?
Mr. DoTO. I did not have any desire to appear before this committee
then or never.
Mr. Halley. Why didn't you desire to appear before this com-
mittee?
Mr. DoTO. Because I did not want to be a willing witness.
Mr. Halley. Well, you are a citizen of the United States?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And this is a Senate committee conducting a lawful
inquiry, is it not?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And you considered it to be your duty to appear and
answer lawful questions ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Why didn't you want to appear ?
Mr. DoTG. Because I never got the subpena.
Mr. Halley. Well, we passed that point; you were at the point
where your lawyer, and I must say it was not Mr. Corbin
Mr. DoTO. I told them there would be time enough to get the
subpena.
Mr. Halley. The gentleman who represented Mr. Moretti, is that
right?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
310 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJVIERCE
Mr. Halley. And he told you that we wanted to arrange to serve
a siibpena on you ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And you said you didn't care to accept service, "Let
them catch nie if they can," is that right ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Why did you desire to try to avoid the service of this
committee's subpena when you knew it was attempting to serve it?
Mr. DoTO. For no particular reason. I knew that sooner or later I
would be here.
Mr. Halley. But you preferred it to be very much later, is that it?
Mr. DoTO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Why didn't you want to cooperate and come before
this committee and tell them what you properly could ?
Mr. DoTO. Well, I don't want to go into that. It was an attitude of
your process servers that they went around and harassed me to
no end.
Mr. Halley. How did they harass you ?
Mr. DoTO. Well, they went to the butcher, the baker, and the candle-
stick maker.
Mr. Halley. Well, they were trying to find you, weren't they ?
Mr. DoTO. They couldn't find me through there; they went around
making slurring remarks.
Mr. Halley. They did go to your home ?
Mr. DoTO. Then they started to annoy my wife.
Mr. Halley. They went to your home, did they not ?
Mr. DoTO. That is right. I didn't happen to be home at that mo-
ment ; they didn't wait there for me.
Mr. Halley. And your wife could have told them wdien you could
have been home, is that right?
Mr. DoTo. She doesn't know my business ; she has been sick and has
her own troubles with the four kids.
Mr. Halley. Well, apparently, the butcher and the baker and the
candlestick maker told you that this committee's subpena servers were
looking for you ?
Mr. DoTo'. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And, of course, you knew this harassment would
sto]:) once they served you, and you still refused to come in ?
Mr. DoTO. The damage had already been done.
Mr. Halley. Were you afraid to answer the questions of this
committee ?
Mr. DoTO. No; I am not afraid of anything.
Mr. Halley. Are you afraid to tell this committee the facts with
respect to gambling?
Mr. DoTO. I thought I made a statement before for the record that
explained everything, sir.
Mr. HaIvLey. We won't talk about your gambling now. Let us talk
about gambling, in general, in New Jersey. What do you know, if
anything, about gambling?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. What have you heard that you can tell this committee
that would be of help in assisting this committee in its investigation?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 311
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the giound that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Do you know w^hether or not any person engaged in
the gambling business ox^erates across State lines and from one State
to another?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Hai^ley. Do you know anytliing about the bookmaking
business ?
Mr, DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard whether or not Frank Erickson
is a bookmaker?
Mr. DoTO. Well, I have heard lately ; yes.
Mr. Halley. You have heard ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether Frank Erickson took lay-off
bets ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether any people take lay-off bets?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
Mr. Halley. Do you know what a lay-off bet is ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't know whether I do or not.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of a lay-off bet ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. I won't ask any more questions.
Senator Tobey. I have only one comment to make. It is not a
question, but it is very clearly evident to me that this gentleman's
attorney, Mr. Corbin, who is sitting in the rear of the room, made the
truest remark in this room today when he said that Mr. Adonis didn't
need any help from him. [Laughter.]
Mr. CoRBiN. I think he realizes that we still have a fifth amendment
to our Constitution.
Senator Tobey. Mr. Adonis, in September of 1937 you were arrested
by Detectives Maguire and Casey of the safe and loft squad, and you
handed over to Detective Maguire a paper containing a list of names
and amounts, saying that you did not wish to be questioned about it,
and you asked Detective Maguire to hold it for you, is that correct?
Mr. DoTO. I don't recall any such instance. Senator.
Senator Tobey. Well, Maguire said that you said to Maguire that
this would show how you operated. Maguire gave the list to Captain
Fennelly, who had a photostat made, and the list was then given
back to you. The list was apparently in your handwriting and reads
as follows — it is a piece of book concerning one side the "ins," and the
other side the "outs," and on the "in" side such items as $54,000 for
B. R.; Sally $25,000; Frank C. $26,000; Doc $5,000; Spic. $7,500;
Doc $1,500; Frank C. $20,432; Doc $9,000; Frank $10,000; Sart.
$25,250 ; Sart. $22,232.
On the "out," Doc $5,000; legal $750; legal $500; Frankie Gar
$1,000; judge $5,000: judge $15,000; up-State $250; Doc $25,000
Louis L. $200; Kenny $100; Doc $15,000; Doc $5,000; Spic, $10,000;
up-State $250; judge $3,000; Ben $5,000; up-State $250; Guy $3,000;
312 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Spiro $2,000; George H. $1,000; up-State $450; Ben $15,000; Capital
$25,000; George H. $1,000; consular $17,500; Tee $7,500; up-State
$225; legal $12,500; legal $3,000; John B. $8,300; Fourteenth Street
$500.
Now, tlie "ins" total $206,283, and the "outs" total $188,425.
"Would you be willing to tell the committee whatever that covers the
"ins" and "out" — what is the time those items cover ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to incrim-
inate me.
Senator Tobey. Would you care to explain and interpret those names
for us as to who they represent?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer.
Senator Tobey. Do you recall that memorandum ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Do you recall any of the connections with it?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Do you recall any of those connotations of those
names, as connoting something else? You do not recall your being
arrested by these two detectives ?
Mr. DoTO. I recall being arrested.
Senator Tobey. But you do not recall giving them this memo-
randum ?
Mr, DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Do you know Benny Eailroad ?
Mr. DoTO. Who?
Senator Tobey. Benny Railroad is his name. Do you know Salva-
tore Spitale, now in Sing Sing, or was in Sing Sing?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
Senator Tobey. Is he still in Sing Sing?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know, sir.
Senator Tobey. Well, the initials Sally, do they connote Salvatore
Spitale, in your judgment?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
Senator Tobey. Would Frank C. mean Frank Costello?
Mr. DoTo. I wouldn't know.
Senator Tobey. W^ould "Legal" be Moe Polakoff ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
Senator Tobey. Would "Ben" be Big Ben Siegel?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
Senator Tobey. Would "Capital" mean Capital Distributors Corp. ?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
Senator Tobey. Would "Geo. H." mean George Howard?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know.
Senator Tobey. One other question: Did "John B." mean John
Brocco?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know, sir.
Senator Tobey. Do those names mean anything to you, sir?
Mr. DoTO. Some of them do, some of them don't.
Senator Tobey. Noav, did you go up to New Hampshire at one time,
northern New Hampshire, to Dixville Notch and look over the hotel
property known as the Balsams ?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir ; I was up in the Balsams.
Senator Tobey. Was Frank Guedera the owner then of that hotel?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 313
Senator Tobey. Is he still living ?
]Mr. DoTO. I don't know. I haven't seen him over the last few years.
Senator Tobey. At that time did you look at it with the possible
thought of buying it ?
Mr. DoTO. There was some thought.
Senator Tobey. To make it the center of gambling operations ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Did you tell Frank Guedara that this hotel was
adequately suitable for gambling?
Mr. DoTO. Xo, sir ; I don't recall such conversation.
Senator Tobey. Were there a good many Tammany politicians
from New York who frequented the Balsams in the fall of the year
each year?
Mr. DoTO. I wouldn't know ; I never was there in the fall.
Senator Tobey. And you do not recall any Tvhen you were there —
you do not recall any of those who were there when you were there?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. I see. That is all I have.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Charlie Binaggio ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Mr. HxYlley. Never met him?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. You testified a few moments ago that you knew
Mr. Art Samish of California. Where did you meet him in these in-
stances that you mention?
Mr. DoTO. Somewheres in New York.
Senator Tobey. In New York?
Mr. DoTO. Yes.
Senator Tobey. Did you ever meet him in California ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
Senator Tobey. Do you know of his operations in California ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you in Hot Springs, Ark., in the last 6 or 8
months ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. This fall?
Mr. DoTO. This spring, this past spring.
The Chairman. Were you registered in your name? "\A^iat name
were you registered under?
Mr. DoTO. My name.
The Chairman. Joe Adonis or Joe Doto?
Mr. DoTO. Doto, I believe it was.
The Chairman. Were you there this fall?
Mr. DoTO. No ; I was not there this fall.
The Chairman. ^\^iere do you stay in Florida when you go down ?
Mr. DoTO. No place in particular.
The Chairman. I know, but what hotel do you stay at?
Mr. DoTO. Well, I stayed in a little place called the Hampshire
House the last few years at Hallandale, Fla.
The Chairman. JDid you stay at the Wotford any time?
Mr. DoTO. I have stayed there.
The Chairman. You know Abe Allenberg quite well?
Mr. DoTo. Yes, sir.
68958— 51— pt. 7 21
314 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The CiiAiRMAisr, Who do you know connected with the Ford Motor
Co., or who used to be connected ':
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to incrimi-
nate me.
The Chairman. Would you mind listing a property that you own,
real estate you own?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend to incrimi-
nate me.
The Chairman. You have a chauffeur or a butler, do you not?
Mr. DoTo. I decline to answer on the gi-ound it might tend to incrimi-
nate me.
The Chairman. How would that tend to incriminate you ?
]\Ir. DoTO. Well, I don't have a butler ; I don't have anybody.
The Chairman. Well, you have something — you have somebody
who drives you around 'I
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
The Chairman. Don't you have someone associated with you and
who owns a building in Cliffside Park, where the Home Movie Ex-
change is located % Do you know where the Home Movie Exchange is ?
Mr. DoTO. It doesn't mean a thing to me.
The Chairman. It doesn't mean anything to you at all ?
Mr. DoTO (shaking his head in the negative).
The Chairman. You do not have any interest in it ?
Mr. DoTO, Home Movie Exchange ?
The Chairman. Yes ; the building where it is located.
Mr. DoTO. I don't have any interest in any building.
The Chairman. In any building %
Will you tell us your net worth as of today ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. Neither you nor any member of your family are
related to Frank Costello, I believe you said?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have any connection with Plastic Fashions
at Gol-A Palisades Avenue, Cliffside 'I
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever had ?
Mr. DoTO (shaking his head in the negative).
The Chairman. Do you know this Palisades Specialty Co. ?
Mr. DoTo. Who?
The Chairman. Palisades Specialty Co. ?
Mr. DoTO. I don't know of it.
The Chairman. 498 Anderson Avenue, Palisades, N. J.?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
The Chairman. You do not know where it is ?
]\Ir. DoTO. Well, I have an idea when you mention the address.
The Chairman. Do you or have you had any interest in it at all ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about Cornell Distributors
on State Highway No. 6, Eidgefield Park, N. J. %
Mr. DoTO. No, sir. '
The Chairman. Do you have a bank account ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 315
The Chairman. Where is your bank account ?
Mr. DoTO. Edgewater National Bank.
The Chairman. Is that the only one you have ?
Mr. DoTO. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you keep money in a box or any amount of
money ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
The Chairman. You keep all your cash in your bank account ?
Mr. DoTO. That is correct.
The Chairman. Is that correct?
Mr. DoTO. Correct.
The Chairman. Do you own any real estate in New York State ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
The Chairman. Or have any interest in any ?
Mr. DoTo. No, sir.
The Chairman. Either yourself or through a corporation ?
Mr. DoTO. No, sir.
The Chairman. Will you tell us how many corporations you owd
stock in or have an interest in ?
Mr. DoTO. I decline to answer on the ground it might tend tO'
incriminate me.
The Chairman. I am not asking you which one; I am asking you.
how many.
Mr. DoTO. I still decline to answer on the ground it might tend
to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Mr. Adonis, you will remain subject to subpena,
so that you will be called when we contact your lawyer, Mr. Corbin,
or you; and you are advised, by virtue of your refusal to answer
questions, that Senator Tobey and I have decided that we will have
no alternative but to recommend to the whole committee that you be
cited for contempt of this committee. It is not what we want to
do, but our opinion is that you refused to answer a good many ques-
tions that have no relevancy to the possibility of incriminating you,
so that will be all for the time being, Mr. Adonis.
Mr. DoTO. Thank you.
(The letters previously referred to are identified as exhibit No. 8,.
and read as follows :)
Ford Motor Co.,
Dearborn, Mich., October 20, 1950.
Mr. H. G. Robinson,
Chief Investigator, United States Senate Special Committee to Investi-
gate Organized Crime iri Interstate Commerce, Washington, D. C.
Dear Mr. Robinson : This is in reply to your letter dated September 20, 1950,
regarding the E. & L. Transport Co.
E. & L. Transport Co., a Michigan corporation, and E. & L. Transport, Inc., of
Indiana, an Indiana corporation, are common carriers. These companies convoy
automobiles, trucks, and tractors for Ford Motor Co. There is no contractual
relationship between these companies and Ford Motor Co. except the ordinary-
bill of lading which is issued for each shipment. The president and managing
head of both of these companies with whom our traffic representatives transact
business is Lloyd Lawson. The annual report of E. & L. Transport, Inc., of"
Indiana, to the Interstate Commerce Commission for the year ended Dpcember
31, 1949, shows Lloyd Lawson, Anthony J. D'Anna, and George S. Dixon as
directors. The annual report of E. & L. Transport Co. to the Interstate Com-
merce Commission for the year ended December 31, 1949, shows Lloyd Lawson,,
Anthony J. D'Anna and Effie M. Lawson as directors. Such reports sho\v^
Lloyd Lawson as president and treasurer, and Anthony J. D'Anna as vice presi-
316 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
dent and secretary of each company. These reports also show that 150 shares
of E. & L. Transport, Inc., of Indiana, stock are outstanding — 75 owned by Lloyd
Lawson and 75 owned by Anthony J. D'Anna ; and 1,500 shares of stock of
E. & L. Transport Co. are outstanding — 700 owned by EfBe M. Lawson, 50 by
Lloyd Lawson, and 750 by Anthony J. D'Anna. The names James Baraco and
Sam Moceri do not appear on either of these reports and our traffic representa-
tives say that they have no Icnowledge of either of these persons being connected
with the two corporations.
Automotive Conveying Co. of New Jersey, a New Jersey corporation, is a
common carrier, and convoys automobiles for Ford iNIotor Co. We have no
contractual relationship with this company other than the ordinary bill of
lading issued on each shipment. Our traffic representatives advise that Joseph
Doto does not deal with them as an active representative of this corporation.
Joseph Doto does appear in the annual report to the Interstate Commerce Com-
mission for the year ended December 31, 1949, as a director and vice president.
This report shows 500 shares of stock outstanding, which is owned as follows :
60 by Paul Bonadio, 110 by Charles Chiri, 100 by Marie Chiri, 110 by Joseph
Doto, 100 by Jean Doto, and 20 by Edward F. Farr. This report also shows
that compensation of officers and directors during 1949 was as follows :
Paul Bonadio, $14,000 salary, $954 expenses.
Charles Chiri, $14,000 salary, $1,258 expenses.
Joseph Doto, $14,000 salary, .$503 expenses.
Edward F. Farr, $7,500 salary, $718 expenses.
Superior Motor Sales, Inc., a Michigan corporation, is a Ford dealer at
Wyandotte, Mich. Ford Motor Co. has the usual form of Ford sales agreement
with this company. It was entered into January 29, 1941. It is our under-
standing that the majority of the stock of the corporation is held by William
D'Anna, who is also the president of the corporation, and that the remainder of
the stock is held by Charles Creed, who is also the vice president and treasurer of
the corporation. It is believed that William D'Anna is the brother of Tony
D'Anna and that Tony D'Anna owns and rents to the dealership the building in
which it operates.
Very sincerely,
Mel B. LiNDQmsT,
General Industrial Relations Manager.
Automotive Conveying Co. of New Jerset, Inc.,
November 25, 1950.
Mr. R. E. Beiser,
Ucneral Mavager, National Aiitoniobile Transporters Association,
2621 CadiUac Toivcr, Detroit, Mich.
Dear Dick: The following information is furnished as per your request made
during your recent visit to our office.
We have been automobile transporters since November 1932, and have delivered
vehicles into the following States : Virginia, Washington, D. C, Maryland, Penn-
sylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and
Vermont.
Upon enactment of the Motor Carrier Act in 1935 this company was granted
certificate No. MC-31820 as a common carrier.
This company has delivered approximately 50,000 vehicles yearly with the
exception of the war years 1942 to 1944. During this time our facilities were
made available to the war effort.
This year we have delivered 83,545 vehicles during the first 10 months.
We have a peisoniiel of about 110 and the total wages for the first 10 months
amounted to $372,501.17.
Any additional information you may desire will be gladly furnished ujwn
request.
Very truly yours,
Automotive Conveying Co. of New Jersey, Inc.,
Paul Bonadio, Vice President and Treasurer.
The Chairman. Tlie committee has determined that, in view of other
■committee meetings and engagements of members of the committee,
■we will have to have the next session at 10 o'clock in the morning
instead of this afternoon, so the committee will stand in recess nntil
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 317
10 o'clock, and all witnesses are ordered, who have not testified, to re-
port at 10 o'clock in the morning.
:Mr. Cohen. Mr. Chairman, I am Jack L. Cohen. I represent a
witness here who is here, in answer to a snbpena, named James Rutkin.
Now, with reference to Mr. Rutkin, he has appeared here today
against the advice of his physician, and I was hoping that we could
dispose of his testimony today in view of the fact that he has post-
poned an operation for some time now, I do not know whether the
committee feels it will be able to reach him tomorrow morning or not.
If there is any chance that he cannot, I would like to see him be
able to return and be excused so that he can have that medical attention
and come before the committee at some time in the future.
The Chairman. Mr. Rutkin will be here in the morning ?
Mr. Cohen. Well, his doctor advises him not to be here today either.
The Chairman. What is the nature of the illness ?
Mr.- Cohen. An ulcer operation.
The Chairman. What is your name, sir?
Mr. Cohen. The stenographer has it, Jack L. Cohen.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Cohen, you remember that the committee excused
Mr. Rutkin once before.
Mr. Cohen. That is right, sir.
Mr. Halley. And at that time you said that if the committee would
excuse him he would assure that as soon as the trial he was then in was
over he would appear, whether it was in Washington or Philadelphia,
and that he would then testify.
Mr. Cohen. In response to your question, Mr. Rutkin is here today,
Mr. Halley. We have complied with your request and with our repre-
sentation at that time. I am merely pointing out, in view of his
physical condition, if there is going to be any delay in taking his
testimony, we ask that it be an extended one.
The Chairman. We will juit him on as the first witness in the
morning at 10 o'clock. Will that be satisfactory?
Mr. Cohen. I think it will.
The Chairman. If it is not, we will contact Mr. Halley this after-
noon and we will see what can be done.
The committee will now stand in recess until 10 o'clock in the morn-
ing, unless otherwise called,
(Whereupon, at 1 : 15 p, m., the hearing was adjourned, to reconvene
at 10 a. m. Wednesday, December 13, 1950.)
INVESTIGATION OF OKGANIZED CEIME IN INTEESTATE
COMMEECE
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 13, 1950
United States Senate,
Speclvl Committee To Investigate
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 : 10 a. m. in
room 457, Senate Office Building, Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman)
presiding.
Present : Senators Kefauver, Tobey, and Hunt.
Also present : Eudolph Halley, chief counsel for the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Cohen ? Where is Mr. Cohen ?
Mr. Jack L. Cohen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You represent ]\Ir. Rutkin, and you have given the
committee the telegram of Mr. Rutkin saying that the doctor ordered
him to go to bed when he got back last night, and he has not come
back this morning ?
Mr. Cohen. That is right, sir.
The Chairman. Well, the staff in New York has been directed to
have a physician call on Mr. Rutkin today. That will be satisfactory
with you ?
Mr. Cohen. We have no objection, sir.
The Chairman. If these findings are not borne out, Mr. Cohen, we
are going to take proceedings against Mr. Rutkin, and also Mr.
Catena, who it is also ordered that he be examined.
He assured us he would be here this morning.
Mr. Cohen. Senator, I certainly do not think we ought to impute
to him any intention not to be here or not to testify in view of the
fact that the man was here yesterday in response to your telegram.
Senator Tobey. Why did he go back to New York just this morn-
ing? It is a 4-hour trip back here. Why wouldn't he stay here?
Mr. Cohen. I beg your pardon, sir, it is a 1-hour trip by plane.
He was not feeling very well, and he thought he would be able to get
home and get medical aid, and it was our understanding that he would
be on the early-morning plane, the same as yesterday morning, and
I advised the committee yesterday he would be a very sick man. How-
ever, his attack may take 2 or 3 days or a week to get over, and when-
ever the committee is sitting again he will be here.
As a matter of fact, having had the advantage-
The Chairman. We asked you to let us know if the situation was
such that he could not be back this morning. We called a meeting of
319
320 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJMERCE
the committee yesterday afternoon to decide if there was any doubt
about it, and we did not hear anything which would indicate trouble
from you.
Mr. Cohen. He was here when I spoke to the committee yesterday,
and I did not anticipate there would be any difficulty about his appear-
ance this morning. I do not think anybody can predict the course
of an illness of that kind. It just took a turn for the worse.
The Chairman. All right. We are telling you that a physician will
be out to see him.
Mr. Cohen. As a matter of fact, sir, I had a phone conversation
with him this morning and. having had the advantage of the procedure
yesterday, requested that Dr. Luria send the committee a telegram
advising what his condition was and advising when he will be able
to appear ; and that is probably on its way to the committee now.
Is there anything else, sir ?
The Chairman. No ; nothing else.
Mr. William Moretti ?
Mr. John E. Selser. I wonder, if the committee please, I might
address myself to them for just a moment, not with regard to William
Moretti, but with regard to my appearance before the committee yes-
terday. I believe the committee recalls that I did appear here yester-
day as counsel
The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Selser; we recall.
Mr. Selser. I wanted to set forth before this committee the bases
of my appearance, and the advice that I gave to my client yesterday,
and the advice that I shall give to my clients should they be called
today, my other clients, presently under charges in New Jersey and
New York; and I have prepared a statement which I should like
to read to the committee so that there may be no uncertainty as to
the remarks I make.
The Chairman, How long is your statement ?
Mr. Selser. Just about a moment, sir.
The Chairman. All right ; very well.
Mr. Selser. I would say 2 minutes at the outside.
At the time I first appeared before this committee, I stated that
I would advise my clients that their constitutional right with regard
to self-incrimination was being violated, and I intended to advise
them not to answer questions accordingly.
I tried to make it clear that this conclusion was reached by reason
of the fact, among other things, that the committee was acting as an
arm of the State prosecutors of the various States in that all informa-
tion secured by the committee was delivered into the possession of such
prosecuting officers for use by them in the prosecution of my clients.
Mr. Stamler, the deputy attorney general of New Jersey, presently
serving as the prosecutor of Bergen County, has made a public state-
ment to the effect that he has arranged with this committee to be sup-
plied a copy of the statement to be made by my clients at this hearing.
It is a fact now established that statements made by my clients are
not being sought in good faith for the use of the Senate, but probably
for the use of any person or persons who may choose to make use of
them.
I so conclude because the committee has made every provision for the
comfort of the press and the taking of photographs and the recording
ORGANIZED CRIlVrE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 321
of the statements given, and in addition statements of each witness are
exposed to any member of the public in or out of law-enforcement
circles who may choose to attend the hearing.
I conclude that, since the witnesses are required by the committee to
speak before such public, any statement made would be a waiver of
their constitutional privilege, and I, of course, desire that such right
with regard to self-incrimination may be preserved.
Should this committee set up a program for hearing the statements
of my clients so that the record so taken will be limited to the exclusive
use of the Senate, within the four walls of the resolution under which
this committee was created, then, of course, I would advise my clients
very differently with regard to their right to refuse to answer questions.
In short, my advice to my clients is not based uj^on any desire to
keep facts away from the Senate within the four walls of the investi-
gation authorized by the resolution creating the committee, but rather
it is a desire to prevent the law-enforcement officers of the various
States from doing, through this committee, what they would not under
law be privileged to do for themselves as against the rights of my
clients.
The Chairman. Have you finished reading your statement?
Mr. Selser. Yes; I have finished reading it, and I wanted this to be
a part of the record, that the basis
The CiiAiRMAX. It is made part of the record.
You have finished your statement; and, of course, you can reach
any conclusion you want to. This is an open hearing; anybody has a
right to hear the testimony. We made efforts to get your clients before
executive sessions, and for one reason or another they did not appear.
I think, Mr. Selser, the committee is better able to determine what
the purposes of the inquiry are and our mode of operation than you
are, sir, but we are glad to have your statement.
Call Mr. Moretti, please.
Mr. Moretti, you solemnly swear the testimony you give this com-
mittee will be tiie truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Moretti. I do.
The Chairman. We are going to offer Mr. Moretti's testimony, and
we do not want any pictures made after his testimony starts.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM MORETTI, HASBEOUCK HEIGHTS, N. J.,
ACCOMPANIED BY JOHN T. SULLIVAN, ATTORNEY, NEW YORK,
N. Y.
Mr. Haleey. What is your full name, Mr. Moretti ?
Mr. Moretti. William Moretti.
Mr. Halley. What is your address ?
Mr. Moretti. 201 Bell Avenue, Hasbrouck Heights, N. J.
Mr. Halley. May we have the appearance of counsel ?
Mr. Sullivan. Jolm T. Sullivan, 70 Pine Street, New York City.
Mr. Halley. You are representing Mr. Moretti ?
Mr. Sullivan. That is correct.
Mr. Halley. What is your business, Mr. Moretti ?
Mr. Moretti. U. S. Linen Supply business.
Mr. Halley. And the address of that is what ?
223 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. I have got it right here. It is a long block, so there
are several addresses here; 113 to 137 North First Street, Paterson,
N. J.
Mr. Halley. How old are you, Mr. Moretti ?
Mr. Moretti. I was born June 4, 1894.
Mr. Halley. AVhere were you born ?
Mr. Moretti. New York City,
Mr. Halley. Where have you resided since then ?
Mr, Moretti, What was the question a^ain ?
Mr, Halley. Where have you resided since 1894, in what States ?
Mr, Moretti. In New York City, 329 East One Hundred and Ninth
Street, where I was born.
Mr. Halley. I do not need your precise addresses, but I want to
know did you live in New York City continuously ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I lived in New York until around 1915.
Mr. Halley. Then where did you move ?
Mr. Moretti. Then I moved around.
Mr. Halley. To what States ?
Mr. INIoretti. Philadelphia, Pa. ; Jersey.
Mr. Halley. Where else ?
Mr. Moretti. New York State.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever live in California ?
Mr, Moretti, No, sir,
Mr, Halley, Or in Chicago ?
Mr. Moretti. Just went there for a vacation once when I w^as sick.
I never lived in Chicago, sir,
Mr, Halley. Have you ever been convicted of a crime ?
Mr, Moretti, Yes, sir,
Mr, Halley, What was that and when ?
Mr, Moretti, In 1913, some barber said I tried to hit him and take
money oH him, so they charged me with robbery. It was no more
robbery than sitting here.
Mr. Halley. Was that in New York ?
Mr. Moretti. New York City ; yes, sir.
Mr. Halley, And you were convicted ?
Mr, Moretti, I was convicted, found guilty of assault in the second
degree,
Mr, Halley, Were you sentenced to prison ?
Mr, Moretti. Judge Rosalsky sentenced me to Elmira Reformatory.
Mr, Halley, For how long ?
Mr. MoRET^n. For the maximum of 5 years, but I did it in 12 months
and 21 days ; I still hold my record there.
Mr. Halley. Was that because of time off for good behavior ?
Mr. Moretti, No ; you could do your time in 12 months and 21 days
even if your crime calls for 20 years, you can get out by that time.
Mr, Halley, How can you do that ?
Mr, Moretti, By being a good boy, good behavior,
Mr, Halley, Good behavior?
Mr. Moretti. Right, never lost a month.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever convicted for any other offense?
Mr. Moretti. In 1915 I was convicted for — there was a gun charge
of a misdemeanor. I got a 2-year suspended sentence from Judge
Rosalsky again, and he made a speech there and he said, "Being I sen-
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 323
tenced you to Elmira Keformatory in 1913, and you obeyed my orders,
I am going to give you a suspended sentence." He said, "Next time
you hear shooting, turn the other way and don't take any guns out of
people's pockets,"
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Halley, may I interrupt, please?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Moretti has been suffering from a severe illness
for many years. Now, however, he is desirous, for the benefit of his
family and for the benefit of making — to controvert to some extent
some of the statements which have appeared about him, he is anxious
to explain what these two things you just referred to were. I do not
think that he has given the full explanation. He feels that in neither
one of these cases was he guilty of any crime.
Mr. Halley. I have gotten that impression and I believe the com-
mittee will be happy to hear his explanation.
Mr. Sullivan. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Now, with respect to the gun charge
Mr. Sullivan. Go ahead, tell him the story of the gun charge.
Mr, Moretti. I was at the corner of One Hundred and Seventeetli
Street, around 1 o'clock in the afternoon, so I heard some shooting at
One Hundred and Sixteenth, so I didn't know where it was, so you
know how kids are, they all run when they hear shooting, so I ran to
the scene.
There was a fellow lying on the sidewalk; so there was a hospital
across the way. I put him on my shoulders and brought him to the
hospital. I knew the fellow slightly ; so while they were taking the
clothes off him a gun fell out of his pocket, so I took the gun and put
it in my pocket. The doctors and everybody seen that, so I come
out of the hospital to give it to the police department. I got caught
coming out of the hospital with a gun in my pocket.
Mr. Halley, Were you convicted of that gun charge or of the
shooting ?
Mr, Moretti, No.
Mr. Halley. The gun charge?
Mr. Moretti. No ; they never tried to connect me with the shooting,
because the killer was electrocuted.
Mr. Halley. I see.
Mr, Moretti. He was caught the same day.
Mr. Halley. Did you know the killer?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I never seen him ; I heard the shooting a block
away.
Mr. Halley. But you had never seen the killer before ?
Mr. Moretti. No; it was an Italian boy who was in this country
about 6 months. I don't think anybody knew him. That case made
history after I found out who he was.
Mr. Halley. In fact, your position was that you were convicted
simply on a technicality in having the gun ?
]\Ir, ]\Ioretti. That is right, and the doctors and the nurses all be-
came my witnesses before Rosalsky.
Mr. Sullivan. I would like to point out, which is shown by the
fact that a suspended sentence was given after he had a previous
conviction, so actually the actual technicality of having a gun in his
pocket after walking out is all it amounted to.
324 ORGANIZED CRIIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. I must say, as a New Yorker, I never knew that Judge
Rosalsky ever had a reputation for handing out suspended or easy
sentences.
Were you ever convicted in 1934 for a similar case ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I was indicted for no reasons at alL
Mr. Halley. What were the facts?
Mr. MoRETTi. There was an investigation in Passaic County — I
think it was in 1933 or 1934. You have it in your records there.
So there was some gambling there, and somebody appointed a deputy
attorney general. The Democrats always fight the Republicans ; the
Hepublicans fight the Democrats. It has gone all over the country.
So they appointed a deputy attorney general to get some corruption,
so tliey appointed a fellow by the name of Carpenter, and he sent
a lot of people to jail there. The last one to be indicted was me in a
blanket indictment, for numbers. I had no more to do with numbers
than you did.
So everybody was convicted ; so they put 10 disorderly house charges
against me. A disorderly house charge in Jersey ; I didn't know what
it was until I inquired about it. So I spoke to one of my lawyers,
wdiicli is Mr. Selser, who is here, and he said that means where they
pick up numbers in a store.
So, on my own I went to the prosecutor's office. I spoke to Car-
penter and the other deputy attorney general. I said, "I have three
daughters going to school," and I said, "People may misunderstand
this disorderly house business ; it may be ill-famed houses." I said,
"I don't want to live up to that reputation." So they changed mine
to conspiracy. I pleaded guilty to these, and they gave me a sus-
pended sentence again. They found out through records themselves
that I was innocent.
Mr. Halley. Why did you plead guilty?
Mr. MoiiEii'i. Just because I wanted to get it over with. Every-
body else went to the can.
Mr. Halley. Were your associations in business at that time such
that you were implicated even though you were in your opinion
innocent ?
Mr. JNIoRETTi. No; I still frequent the race track quite often; I still
do.
Mr. Halley. What was your business in 1934?
INIr. MoRETTi. I had no business.
Mr. Halley. You were a gambler?
]\Ir. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you convicted on any other occasions ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Not that I know of.
Mr. Halley. You were arrested once or twice, though, were you
not, in addition to that?
JNIr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
]Mr. Halley. Do you remember those occasions ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think in 1917 they locked me up in Philadelphia. I
didn't know for what. I only found out in 1939 before the grand jury
in New York what the charge was, and I told them I didn't know any-
thing about it.
Mr. Halley. You know the charge was highway robbery, was it
not?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 325
Mr. INIoRETTi. I didn't know until then. In 1939 I found that out.
Mr. Halley. The record says you failed to appear, Mr. Moretti.
Mr. MoRETTi. Not to my knowledge. The lawyer took care, by the
name of Chippie Patterson. He charged me 35 and told me to go
home. Tliat is 1917. I don't think laws were so drastic in Phila-
delphia then.
Mr. Halley. However, highway robbery was a crime.
Mr. MoRETTi. I didn't know that until 1939. I made that statement
before the grand jury in New York.
Mr. Halley. In any event, you never showed up, and your lawyer
told you not to bother about it ?
Mr. MoRETTi. What — yes, sir.
]Mr. Halley. In any event your lawyer told you not to bother about
it, and you went home.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; Chippie Patterson.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested on any other occasion ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think in New York City. A friend of mine got
arrested for burglary, and I went to court to listen to his trial, and
some woman in court — the judge told this woman, he says, "Have you
seen anybody else? Look around and see any of his friends."
She picks me out of the courtroom, so I stood there. They brought
me before the judge. "Guilty or not guilty?" "Not guilty." So they
put me under bail.
jNlr. H/LLEY. What year was this?
Mr. Mdretti. I don't remember now whether it was 1914 or the
early 1915; I don't recollect because when I come out of Elmira in
1914 1 had to do a 6-month parole, which I got an absolute release after
6 months, so it must have been in the later part of 1914 or early 1915, 1
just don't remember.
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Halley, you will have to bear with his memory.
The Chairman. His memory is very good, Mr. Sullivan.
Mr. Sullivan. It is good with some things, but it will get confused.
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, that instance that you are innocent, you have
got to remember regardless of how your memory is.
The Chairman. It is easy to remember the truth.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Moretti, what occurred, what was the disposition
of that charge?
Mr. MoRETTi. Thrown out of court by Judge Cotillo. He was my
lawyer at the time. He went up there and he said, "This man shouldn't
even be indicted." The following day after I was picked up in the
courtroom they gave me a hearing, and Cotillo represented my case,
which he was a supreme court justice when he died, he was a supreme
court justice — he was a very good friend of mine. So he got the min-
utes of the case and went downtown, I think — I forgot the prosecutor's
name at that time — they dismissed the case.
Mr. Halley. Do you remember any other arrests ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir,
Mr. Halley. Well, wasn't there one in New Jersey where I think
you were charged with murder, indicted ?
Mr. Moretti. 1931.
Mr. Halley. That is right. And that case was nolle pressed, is that
right?
Mr. Moretti, Nolle prossed ; that is right.
236 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Do you remember the circumstances there ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Somebody was killed by the name of Brady. He was a
good friend of mine. Why they implicated me, I don't know.
Mr. Halley. They went so far as to indict you, did they not?
Mr. MoRETTi. I was indicted. Joseph Bongiorno and Anthony
Sabio was indicted.
Mr. Halley. They are good friends of yours, too?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And you do not know why you were charged?
Mr. Moretti. I come out on bail of $35,000. Bail is permissible in
Jersey for murder.
Mr. Halley. You never did go to trial ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Now, Mr. Moretti, I take it you lived in New York
until after your conviction and your time in the Elmira Reformatory,
and then you went to Philadelphia, is that right ?
Mr. Moretti. After I got the suspended sentence I asked permis-
sion to go to Philadelphia.
Mr. Halley. Up to that time in New York you were a young man.
Do you remember what you did for a living in those days ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes. I started at 25 cents a week for a milkman
when I was 5 years old, and I worked until I was arrested for this
case that I just told you about in 1913, and I happened to be a fighter,
too, them days, and I had to fight for a living. I was a pinboy. I
never stood out of work until 1913 when I got arrested of this charge
this barber tried to accuse me, because I didn't go to this barber shop.
That is the whole story there. Fighting one time, I knocked out a
big colored fellow in Longacres downtown; they handed me a bag
with a hundred pennies in it.
Mr. Halley. What weight did you fight at ?
Mr. Moretti. I fought over in New York.
Mr. Halley. What was your weight ?
Mr. Moretti. Paperweight, 97 pounds, and I quit at 121.
Mr. Halley. Now, then, you went to Philadelphia. What did you
do there for a living ?
Mr. Moretti. 1 gambled.
Mr. Halley. Did you make book?
Mr. Moretti. Never booked in my life.
Mr. Halley. What kind of gambling?
Mr. Moretti. Just shot craps, that's all. In that time in Phila-
delphia it was not what it is now. I think New York used to be the
game way. All kids gambled to make a living.
Mr. Halley. Well, you could not always win; did you book the
game ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I just shot crap; I didn't go to a race track
then ; that is how I made a living,
Mr. Halley. And you had no legitimate business?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in Philadelphia, Mr. Moretti ?
Mr. Moretti. Up until this Walker fight law; I thought I was
arrested for the Walker fight law. I didn't know there was a charge
of highway robbery. I think it was in 1917, wasn't it ?
Mr. Halley. 1918.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 327
Mr. MoRETTi. 1918.
Mr. Halley. You gave the name John Moretti there at that time.
Did you have any reason for doing that?
Mr. Moretti. Well, Guarino, they couldn't make it, so I said "Make
it John."
Mr. Hallet. Your true name is Guarino ?
Mr, Moretti. Guarino was my baptismal name, so my school
teacher, when I went to school, she changed it to William, not me ; I
didn't even know what William meant.
Mr. Hallet. And then at Philadelphia you used John when you
were arrested on that highway robbery charge.
Mr. Moretti. I gave William, and if they put John, I couldn't help
it. I couldn't identify that because I had to have a registration card ;
is that right ?
Mr. Halley. I don't know.
Mr. Moretti. Well, maybe I am a little older than you are.
Mr. Halley. Did you have a registration card for the draft at
that time ?
Mr. Moretti. You had to. I would have been drafted if Governor
Whitman wouldn't have drafted a law that he didn't want any convicts
in the Army with the clean-living people.
Mr. Halley. Did you register for the draft under the name of John
or William ?
Mr. Moretti. Guarino. I have got to register under my baptismal
name.
Mr. Halley. You also used the name of Moore ; is that right ?
Mr. Moretti. Right.
Mr. Halley. Is that more recent?
Mr. Moretti. That is more probably 25 years, maybe 30.
Mr. Halley. Now, you left Philadelphia after this charge in 1918?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where did you go then ?
Mr. Moretti. New York.
Mr. Halley. Back to New York ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay in New York after 1918?
Mr. Moretti. I don't remember — between New York and Buffalo —
and I went all over, Newburgh, traveled around, wherever there was
a crap game, I was there.
Mr. Halley. Just gambling ?
Mr. Moretti. That is all.
Mr. Halley. And no other business ?
Mr, Moretti. No.
Mr. Halley. When did you first move to New Jersey ?
Mr. Moretti. I moved to New Jersey in 1928, I think ; I was mar-
ried in 1927,
Mr, Halley, You decided to settle down in New Jersey ; is that it ?
Mr. Moretti. Right.
Mr. Halley. In what town in New Jersey did you first live?
Mr. Moretti. East Paterson.
Mr. Halley. East Paterson? At that time did you know Longy
Zwillman ?
]Mr. Moretti. At that time ; no.
Mr. Halley. Wlien did you first meet him ?
328 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. I met him, oh, around the thirties.
Mr. Halley. The thirties ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Met him at a fight.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the liquor business ?
Mr. Moretti. Never.
Mr. Halley. Never touched that at all?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. What did you do for a living after you got married
and settled down in New Jersey in 1928 ?
Mr. Moretti. Race track.
Mr. Halley. Did you gamble there or
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you own horses at that time ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir; never owned horses.
Mr. Halley. Have you never owned any horses?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have never made book either, you said?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You just would bet your own money on horses?
Mr. Moretti. That is all.
Mr. Halley. Did you always win ?
Mr. Moretti. Most of the time. I got a system of my own.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Halley. And your system w^as your sole source of earning a
living; is that right? Would you care to tell the committee what
your system is, in general ?
Mr. Moretti. Just play for show; you have got three plays of
winning.
Mr. Halley. You play for show?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Well, how do you know wdiich horse to play for show ?
Mr. Moretti. I am a pretty good handicapper.
Mr. Halley. You study the racing forms regularly ?
Mr. Moretti. Right.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever operated any kind of a gambling game ?
Mr. Moretti. Never.
Mr. Halley. You have never had any connection with any what-
soever ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. We notice that your brother has had various connec-
tions with these gambling houses in Lodi, and Paterson, and Pali-
sades, and so forth, but that you do not appear to have any connec-
tion with them.
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you any interest, direct or indirect, in those
gambling games ?
Mr. ]Moretti. Only about Tony Guarino.
Mr. Halley. Only about Tony Guarino?
Mr. Moretti, Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Would you explain what that is?
Mr. Moretti. He hacl a crap game in Lodi, probably several places.
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Moretti. He ran o-ambling.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 329
Mr. Halley. Did you have any part of his ■
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. What was your interest in Tony (Tuarino?
Mr. MoRETTi. I stood up for him when he- got married.
Mr. Halley. He is a very close friend of yours, is that right ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And did you lielp him get this crap game in any way ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. He cot that crap game by himself, is that right?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir ; yes.
Mr. Halley. And he is now serving a prison sentence for run-
ning it ?
Mr. Moretti. Eight.
Mr, Halley. How is it that he was the only one — you seem to be
pretty well informed on affairs in New Jersey — how is it that he is the
only one of six or seven people who ran that crap game who was
indicted ?
Mr. Moretti. I understand the case, that there was a case in New
York City that involved Tony Guarino.
Mr. Halley. Well, there was a case in New York City involving
Max Stark, the man who cashed the checks.
Mr. Moretti. That is right, and some witness took the case against
Tony Guarino, as I understand it.
Mr. Halley. You remember the Max Stark case, as I understand it ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Stark?
Mr. Moretti. I know him not too well.
Mr. Halley, And Stark went to jail for cashing the checks for this
crap game ?
Mr. Moretti. That is right. I don't know if it was a crap game or
not.
Mr. Halley. Then, Tony Guarino's name came up in that trial, is
that right ?
Mr. ^Ioretti. I presume so.
Mr. Halley. Didn't you know
Mr. Moretti. That is how they got the lead, I think.
Mr. Halley (continuing). Didn't you know that practically every
one of those checks that Max Stark cashed had Jimmy Lynch's signa-
ture on the back of it ?
Mr. Moretti. I do not know about it.
Mr. Halley. Would you know if any real deal was made so that
Guarino was the only one to go to jail, that he agreed to take the rap
for the rest of the boys ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I don't think there was a deal made by any-
body, and I am pretty well liked in Bergen County, and I should
know. It was a legitimate arrest. The landlord squealed on Tony
Guarino that he gave in the rent; when they looked up Tony Guarino
at home, he went over there, and he got out on bail, and then he went
over and confessed the whole deal.
Mr. Halley. He went to jail, and nobody else got indicted, is that
right?
Mr. Moretti. Well, you have got to ask the prosecutor, not me.
68058 — 51 — pt. 7 22
330 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. I thought you might know if there was some sort of a
deal made.
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; I don't know of any deal.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Rutkin, Jimmy Rutkin?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. A long time.
Mr. Halley. Well, 20 or 30 years?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, I wouldn't say that long.
Mr. Halley. Well, how long would you say?
Mr. MoRETTi, Around 22 or 23 years.
Mr. Halley. How did you first meet him?
Mr. MoRETTi. I met hirn at a fight also.
Mr. Halley. At a fight?
Mr. MoRETTi. He is the one who introduced me to Abe Zwillman.
Mr. Halley. Who?
Mr, MoRETTi. He is the one that introduced me to Abe Zwillman.
Mr. Halley. Zwillman?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And have you been seeing Rutkin recently ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I seen him here yesterday.
Mr. Halley. Did you see him before that recently ?
Mr. IMoRETTi. Well, not since he had been on trial; no.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Charley Binaggio ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet with him in any way?
Mr. Moretti. Never.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever send any message to him about the Rutkin
case?
Mr. Moretti. Never.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in the Essex House Hotel in
Newark ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. When were you there last?
Mr. Moretti. I had my daughters' weddings there.
Mr. Halley. Your daughters' weddings?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; both of them.
Mr. Halley. Have you been there since then ?
Mr. Moretti. Since then? No, not too often, once or twice.
Mr. Halley. Do you get there once in a while ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, I know the owner very well.
Mr. Halley. Were you there this spring, do you know?
Mr. Moretti. This spring? I don't think so.
Mr. Halley. Around March?
Mr. Moretti. I don't think so.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vito Genovese ?
Mr. Moretti. I do.
Mr. Halley. And of course you know Joe Adonis?
Mr. Moretti. I do.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 331
Mr. Halley. Did you ever sit down with Rutkin and any of those
gentlemen to talk about his case ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Whose case ?
Mr. Haixey. Rutkin's case.
Mr. MoRETTi. I had no interest.
Mr. Halley. At no time ?
Mr. MoitETTi. No time.
Mr. Hall]<:y. You never made any efforts to try to settle the Rutkin
■case?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever talk to Rutkin about trying to settle the
•case ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. Halley. And you never talked with or sent any message to
•Charley Binaggio about an effort to settle the Rutkin case ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I never sent a message. I don't know him.
Mr. Halley. Well, in some way you might have found somebody
who did know him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Well, let us see. You know Frank Costello, of course ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Very well.
Mr. Halley. Do you know any of the people who gamble in Chi-
cago like Tony Accardo ? Do you know him ?
Mr. Moretti. Slightly.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Charley Fischetti ?
Mr. Moretti. I know him very well, about 20 years or so or more.
Mr. Halley. And Rocco Fischetti ?
Mr. Moretti. Rocco, just slightly.
Mr. Halley. How did you meet Charley Fischetti ?
Mr. Moretti. On racetracks, Florida.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet Tony Gizzo ?
Mr. Moretti. Don't know him from Adam.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Tony Gizzo ?
Mr. Moretti. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Lanza ?
Mr. Moretti. Who is Lanza ?
Mr. Halley. Jack Lanza. You do not know him at all ?
Mr. Moretti. Jack who ?
Mr. Halley. L-a-n-z-a.
Mr. IV^ORETTi. Jack Lanza ? No. Where is he from ?
Mr. Halley. He is from New York.
Mr. Moretti. I don't know Jack Lanza; do you mean Joe Lanza?
Mr. Halley. Joe Lanza.
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him ?
Mr. Moretti. I know him very well.
Mr. Halley. How long do you know him ?
Mr. Moretti. A long time.
Mr. Halley. How long would you say ?
Mr. Moretti. Twenty years.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Jack Dragna ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long do you know Jack Dragna ?
332 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMLIERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. Probably 30 years.
Mr. Hallet. Where did you first meet him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. In Harlem.
Mr. HaliJey. In Harlem ?
Mr. MoRETTi. When I lived in Harlem.
Mr. Halley. Was he in the gambling business, too ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't know what he does,
Mr. Halley. When have you last seen him?
Mr. MoRETTi. Oh, probably 6 months ago.
Mr. Halley. Where did you see him 6 months ago ?
Mr. MoRETTi. In New York.
Mr. Halley. Did you talk to him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did he talk to you about the wire service ?
Mr. Moretti. Don't have to talk to me about no wire service because
I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Halley. Well, did he mention it to you?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Where did you see him in New York ?
Mr. Moretti. One of the restaurants ; I just don't remember what
restaurant. I go to several restaurants to eat.
Mr. Halley. At Bruno's.
Mr. Moretti. Probably at the Villanova or one of those res-
taurants.
Mr. Halley. Did you meet him at Bruno's ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't think I met him in Bruno's ; I went there twice
since it opened, two or three times.
Mr. Halley. Where do you think you might have met him ?
Mr. Moretti. One of the restaurants in New York ; I eat all over in
New York.
Mr. Halley. Who else was there when you met him ?
Mr, Moretti, I met him alone,
Mr. Halley. What did he do? Did he call you up first?
MV. Moretti. I didn't know he was there; it was an accidental
meeting.
Mr. Halley. You were there alone ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. He did not call you first ?
Mr. Moretti. I was' there about 10 minutes, because I had an ap-
pointment.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Prof aci ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley, How long have you known him ?
Mr. Moretti. About 15, 20 years.
MV. Halley. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vincent Mangano ?
Mr. Moretti. Who?
Mr. Halley. Mangano.
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him?
Mr. MoREiiT. About 25 years.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any business dealings with him?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 333
Mr. MoRETTi, No, sir.
Mr. Halle Y. Were either of them at your daughters' weddings at
the Essex House?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Both of them?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was Vito Genovese there ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was Frank Costello there?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Joe Adonis ?
Mr. M'oRETTi. Yes', sir.
Mr. Halley. Was Mike Lascari there?
Mr. :\ioRETTL What?
Mr. Halley. Mike Lascari.
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir; his family — his daughter was one of my
daughter's bridesmaids.
Mr. Halley. He was there, and she was one of your daughter's
bridesmaids' ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was Longy Zwilhnan there?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir; with his wife.
Mr. Halley. Are Lascari and Zwilhnan partners in a tobacco or
cigarette vending business ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't know ; I think they are in a cigarette business
together. I am just presuming.
Mr. Halley. In this cigarette vending business, isn't that right?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. In New York?
Mr. IMoRETTi. New York ? I don't know anything about New York ;
I know about Jersey ; I don't know anything about N?w York.
Mr. Halley. They are in the cigarette business in New York ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. I think they call it the Public Service Tobacco Co.,
is that right ?
Mr. Moretti. That is right ; I think so.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever know Joseph DiGiovanni ?
Mr. Moretti. Who?
Mr. Halley. DiGiovanni.
Mr. Moretti. DiGiovanni ?
Mr. Halley. He lives in Kansas City. He is in the liquor business
there, the wholesale liquor business.
Mr. Moretti. Giovanni ?
Mr. Halley. DiGiovanni.
Mr. Moretti. I think you have got the wrong name; you don't
mean D'Agostino, he is dead.
Mr. Halley. Did you know him?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. He lived in Kansas City.
Mr. Moretti. Well, no, this fellow lived in Atlantic City, not Kan-
sas City.
Mr. Halley. No, that is not the one I have in mind. I am thinking
•of a man who lives in Kansas City.
Mr. Moretti. No ; I have never been there.
334 ORGANIZED CRIIVIE EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. You have never been there ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I have never been to Kansas City.
Mr. Halley. Do you know anybody by the name of James Bales-
trere in Kansas City ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
INIr. Halley. Did you know Girolamo Adamo, they sometimes call
him Mo Mo Adamo, who works with Jack Dragna ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think I do ; probably may know him under a.
different name.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Sam Parrolla ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Or Frank Capolla ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Milano ?
Mr. Moretti. Oh, 25 years.
Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him ?
]Mr. Moretti. Oh, a long time ago, in New York.
Mr. Halley. In what connection ?
Mr. Moretti. No connection whatsoever, just a friendship.
Mr. Halley. How did you form it?
Mr. Moretti. I form it; he comes in the same part of Italy my
people come from.
Mr. Halley. Well, aren't these people we have been talking about,
like Rocco Fischetti and Frank Milano and Joe Adonis and several,
of the others, what you would call rackets boys? I mean, aren't they
fellows who were in the rackets ?
Mr. Moretti. Well I don't know if you would call it rackets.
Mr. Halley. How would you put it ?
Mr. Moretti. Jeez, everything is a racket today. [Laughter.]
Mr. Halley. Well, what do you mean by that ?
Mr. Moretti. Everybody has a racket of their own.
Mr. Halley. Well, some of them are lawful and some are not. Are
these fellows in the gambling racket? Would you call it that way?
Mr. Moretti. If you want to call it a racket, call the race track a
racket, too ; that is legitimate, isn't it ?
Mr. Halley.. Well we are talking about illegitimate rackets. Let
us confine it to illegitimate rackets.
Mr. Moretti. The stock market is a racket, too.
Mr. Halley. Well, it is legal, is it not?
Mr. Moretti. Well why not make everything legal; let the Gov-
ernment control it.
Mr. Halley. Well, that is a proposal you might want to make, but
at the moment, you do understand that running a crap game, for
instance, is not legal.
Mr. Moretti. In some parts it is legal ; yes.
Mr. Halley. Except in the State of Nevada.
Mr. Moretti. Right.
Mr. Halley. And are the people we have been talking about people
who have been known to be fellows who are in the various illegal
rackets ?
Mr. Moretti. I can't answer that; I don't ask people's business.
Mr. Halley. Do you know of any legitimate business any of these
people were in, Mr. Moretti ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 335
Mr. MoRETTi. Frank Costello claims he is in — owns some buildings '
on Wall Street.
Mr. Halley. Well, I had carefully refrained from mentioning his
name at that point. Why do you bring him up ? Is he in the same
group ?
Mr. MoRETTi. You mentioned his name, too; that is the only one
that I know has the building on Wall Street. I don't know what the
other ones do.
Mr. Halley. I had not mentioned his name in that group, but you
think of him automatically, I gather.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; I know him so well.
Mr. Halley. When I talk about Adonis and these others; is that
right?
^Ir. ]\IoRETTi. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You loiow Frank Costello pretty well?
Mr. Moretti. Pretty well.
Mr. Halley. And his business is owning buildings, real estate?
Mr. Moretti. Well, only when you used to battle with the slot
machines in New York ; everybody knows that.
Mr. Halley. He used to be in the slot-machine business?
Mr. Moretti. You know that, too. You know that if you are from
New York.
Mr. Halley. He is still in the gambling business in New Orleans?
Mr. Moretti. I don't know that.
Mr. Halley. He testified to that.
Mr. Moretti. I don't know that ; I have not been in New Orleans
in 15 years.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Phil Kastel ?
INIr. Moretti. I know him pretty well.
Mr. Halley. I think it is pretty well known that Phil Kastel and
Frank Costello are in the gambling business in the Beverly Club.
Mr. Moretti. I don't know ; I can't answer that.
INIr. Halley. Have you ever been in Florida ?
Mr. IVIoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Where do you stay when you go to Florida ?
Mv. MoRETTT. Different hotels, Versailles, Kaleigh, stopped at the
Wofford a couple of times.
Mr. Halley. In what years did you stop at the Wofford ?
Mv. Moretti. Oh, probably 1946 or 1947.
Mr. Halley. You mean when Abe Allenberg was running it?
Mr. Moretti. No ; Abe Allenberg wasn't there, I don't think.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Abe Allenberg?
Mr. Moretti. Yes; slightly.
Mr. Halley. Who was owning it at that time, Little Augie Pisano ?
Mr. JMoRETTi. I don't know whether he ran it or not.
Mr. Halley. He was one of the owners ?
Mr. Moretti. He has been there quite often.
Mr. Halley. You know him pretty well?
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I do.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Johnny King?
Mr. Moretti. _ Very well.
Mr. Halley. Tell me, do you know Al Polizzi ?
Mr. Moretti. I know him well.
336 ORGANIZED CRIRIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. These people come from a great many different cities
around the country; Frank Milano is from Cleveland, Polizzi is from
Detroit, Big Boy, they are from Cleveland, and so on down the line.
How do you g-et to meet all of these people from all over the country'^
Mr, MoRETTi. Well, you go to race tracks and you go to Florida,
and you meet them ; and a man that is well known meets everybody ;
you know that.
Mr, Halley. Are these people you are thinking of when you are
talking about the mob ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, the newspapers calls them the mob. I don't
know whether they are right or wrong. If they would be right, every-
body would be in jail ; is that right ?
Mr. Halley. Is that what you mean when you say the mob, these
fellows that you meet at the race tracks and gambling places?
Mr. MoRETTi. People are mobs that makes 6 percent more on the
dollar than anybody else does.
Mr. Halley. I am sorry ; I just did not hear that,
Mr, MoKETTi. They call anybody a mob wdio makes 6 percent more
on money,
Mr, Halley, You mean these people are called a mob because they
make more money ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right. What would you call them, anything
else?
Mr. Halley. I do not know. What do you mean when you say they
make more money ?
Mr. MoRETTi. They gamble, they go to the race tracks and go such
places ; the income tax shows what they file for.
Mr. Halley, I am interested in your views, Mr, Moretti, because
I think if you spoke to most of the people in this room, you would find
that, when they gamble or go to the race track, they expect to lose
their money.
Mr. Moretti. AVell, they don't know how to gamble.
Mr. Halley. Well then, the men of the mob are the people wdio
know how to gamble ; is that what you say ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, what makes lawyers different than others?
One is smarter than the other; is that right?
Mr. Halley. And j'OU think these fellow^s are smarter than the
other people ?
Mr. Moretti. They try, and they try everything ; I don't know what
they do.
Mr. Halley. Of course, they are outside the law in their activities.
That may l)e one reason why they make more money; is that right?
Mr. Moretti. Probably it is one of the reasons, I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Are j^ou considered one of the mob, I mean — you
know^ what I mean?
Mr. ]\roRETTi. I don't know what you mean about a mob. I can't
imderstand that mob business.
INIr. Halley. Well, for instance, take Duke's Restaurant.
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. That is sort of a place where you can go and meet
people of the kind we have been talking about, who you would be apt
to know and recooniize; is that right?
Mr. Moretti. Well, I w^ould class Duke's Eestaurant like Lindy's
on Broadway ; there is no difference.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 337
Mr. Halley. Well, what do you mean by that ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Because they get good meals there, and you hang
around there like every place else does. I go there quite often ; prob-
ably people come over and see me.
Mr. Halley. Well, who do you have in mind who would go there?
Wouldn't they be people who expect to see you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. There is no sign there to put up, "Ko admittance" ; it
is an open place.
I^Ir. Halley. Well, where is Duke's located ? Is it on a main street ?
Mr. MoRETTi. It is on Palisades Avenue, across the way from Palis-
ndes Park.
Mr. Halley. Do they have a big sign there saying "Duke's" ?
Mr. INIoREiTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And it has a big garage there nearby, does it not?
Mr. JMoRETTi. Not in that street.
Mr. Halley. Two doors away, where you can park your car ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Not in that street. They can park all over there.
There is big parking facilities in the park.
Mr. Halley. Do you ever eat lunch there ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Quite often.
Mr. Halley. And when you go there for lunch, do you generally
meet friends ?
Mr. INIoRETTi. Whoever comes in and looking for somebody, I am
there ; I am there all the time.
Mr. Halley. And there would be a lot of these other people who
are smarter than other people and make 6 percent more on their money
who are generally there for their lunch ; is that right?
Mr. MoRETTi. "How can I answer that? I don't ask people their
business.
Mr. Halley. Tell me some of the people you meet there for lunch
at Duke's Restaurant.
Mr. MoRETTi. A lot of people come in there.
]Mr. Halley. Well, did you ever meet Jimmy
Mr. Moretti. To me they are all legitimate, from the way I look
at it.
Mr. Halley. That is obvious. I am sure you would not do it if you
did not feel that way. But let us see who they are. Do you ever
meet Jimmy Rutkin there?
Mr. ISIoRETTi. You mention some of the names there, and I will
answer you.
Mr. Halley. I just mentioned a name — Jimmy Rutkin.
Mr. Moretti. I don't think he was ever there.
Mr. Halley. He was never there ?
Mr. Moretti. Never there.
Mr. Halley. Gerry Catena ; you have seen him there ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Guarino?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have seen him there ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen Longy Zwillman there?
Mr, Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever seen Joe Doto there ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
338 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. And have you seen Vito Genovese there ?
Mr, MoRETTi. Well, not too often. I think once in awhile.
Mr. Halley. Once in awhile ?
Mr. MoRETTi. After all, this fellow is only back from Italy, 1
think, in 1947 or 1946 ; been away from this country about 10 or 12
years.
Mr. Halley. He was there before the war, until about 1946 or
1947; is that right?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; he was away ; was arrested, I think, for murder
in Italy, and brought back to Brooklyn.
Mr. Halley. You knew Lucky Luciano, I suppose?
Mr. MoRETTi. Very well.
Mr. Halley. When you say "very well," what do you mean?
Mr. MoRETTi. A good friend of mine.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have any business dealings with him ?
Mr. ]\Ioretti. No business whatsoever.
Mr. Halley. What was his business?
Mr. Moretti. I can't answer that.
Mr. Halley. Well, here is a man you knew very well.
Mr. Moretti. Well, he is a gambler at the race tracks like every-
body else that I know.
Mr. Halley. Have you seen him in the last 5 years ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Where ?
Mr. Moretti. Cuba.
Mr. Halley. Did you go down there to see him ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Who did you go with ?
Mr. Moretti. Myself and two other fellows.
Mr. Halley. Who were they?
Mr. ]MoRETTi. Vincent Mangano and Gerry Catena.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay there ?
Mr. Moretti. About 5 or 6 days.
Mr. Halley. When you went there, did you see any other people
there besides Lucky Luciano ?
Mr. Moretti. No; just a couple of Cubans — couldn't even talk to
them.
Mr. Halley. No other people from this country were there ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever send or give Lucky Luciano any money 'if
Mr. IVIoretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know if anyone did? Do you know anyone
who did ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't.
Mr. Halley. Wliy did you go down there to see him ?
Mr. Moretti. Because he is a friend of mine.
Mr. Halley. Just friendly?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How did you happen to go with Vincent Mangano?
Mr. Moretti. He is a friend of his, too.
Mr. Halley. And you and Mangano are very good friends ?
Mr. IVIoretti. He has a couple of sons, lawyers, Mr. Mangano.
Mr. Halley. Wliere are these lawyers?
Mr. Moretti. In Brooklyn.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 339
Mr. Halley. In Brooklyn?
Mr. MoGETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Wliat was Gerry Catena doing on the trip?
Mr. MoRETTi. He knows Lucky well, too. We happened to be in
Florida, and I took him along with me. I wanted to see Charlie
Lucky, so they volunteered, just on a friendly basis.
Mr. Halley. And you never did know what Lucky did for a living ?
Mr. MoRETTi. At the race tracks, sir.
Mr. Halley. I see; you think he just gambled?
Mr. Moretti. Race tracks every day.
Mr. Halley. Any slot machines ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't know of any slot machines.
Mr. Halley. Any numbers or policy?
]\Ir. Moretti. No, sir ; I don't know about that.
Mr. Halley. Wlio were some of the other people who were at this
Duke's ? Did Arthur Longano ever go there, Frank Pf abler ?
Mr. Moretti. Now and then.
Mr. Halley. Pete Laplaca?
Mr. Moretti. Quite often.
Mr. Halley. How about the Golden boys, Ben Golden?
Mr. Moretti. Now and then.
Mr. Halley. Mark Golden?
JNIr. Moretti. Now and then.
Mr. Halley. Joe Stacci ?
Mr. Moretti. Who?
Mr. Halley. Joe Stacci.
Mr. Moretti. Who is Joe Stacci ?
Mr. Halley. Don't you know Joe Stacci ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't think so. Maybe I know him under a different
name.
Mr. Halley. You may know him by the name of Rosen.
Mr. Moretti. Doc Rosen ?
Mr. Halley. Yes. You know him. Did he ever go there?
Mr. Moretti. Quite often.
Mr. Halley. Does Frank Costello go there ?
Mr. Moretti. Not too often.
Mr. Halley. But he is there once in a while; is that right?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Now, what do you people talk about at Duke's ? Do
you just pass the time of the day or is any business done ?
Mr. Moretti. Just pass the time of day; no business transactions.
Mr. Halley. None at all ?
Mr. Moretti. None.
Mr. Halley. How often in the course of a week do you go to Duke's
ordinarily ?
Mr. Moretti. Three, four times a week probably.
Mr. Halley. Around lunch time ?
Mr. Moretti. Maybe earlier.
Mr. Halley. And you stay, generally, 2 or 3 hours ?
Mr. Moretti. Probably.
Mr. Halley. Do you make bets there ?
Mr. Moketti. If the race track is open there, I would leave there
and go to the race track.
340 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Would you have a bet there with the people there or
do you sit around and
Mr. MoRETTi. No.
Mr. Halley. Just talk with these people ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Are there any other people in that connection with
respect to the people we have just been talking about, who frequent
Duke's?
Mr. Morettt. I didn't hear that question.
Mr. Halley. Are there any other people that you would like to tell
me about who you see at Duke's ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think I told you enough. [Laughter.]
Mr. Halley. Who was Tony StroUa? Do you know him?
Mr. MoRETTi. Tony Strolla ?
Mr. Halley. Yes. They sometimes call him Tony Bender.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; I know him well.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. He lives in Cliffside.
Mr. Halley. He knew Charlie Binaggio very well ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I can't answer for him.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever talk to him about Charlie Binaggio?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir. Only probably you read in the papers when
something happens like that, an outstanding feature, everybody talks
about it.
Mr. Halley. Did he go to Duke's, too ?
Mr. Moretti. Charlie Binaggio ? I couldn't answer that.
IVIr. Halley. Not Charlie Binaggio ; Strolla.
Mr. Moretti. Tony Bender, yes.
Mr. Halley. Did Nick Eeginalli go to Duke's?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir ; not too often.
Mr. Halley. Tieginalli, from Atlantic City ?
Mr. Moretti. I know him well.
Mr. Halley. Would he go to Duke's on occasion ?
Mr. Moretti. Occasionally, yes.
Mr. Halley. You would see him there ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir ; he is a friend of mine.
Mr. Halley. Now, how about Nig Rosen from Philadelphia?
Mr. Moretti. He has been there quite often.
Mr. Halley. He has been to Duke's quite often, too ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And Pat Massey, from Camden ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Patsy ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. By the wa}^, did you know the other Massey who was
in Florida, Joe Massey?
INIr. Moretti. Yes, I do.
Mr. Halley. Hoav long have you known him?
Mr. Moretti. About 25 years.
Mr. Halley. He originally came from Detroit; is that right?
Mr. Moretti. Right.
Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him ?
Mr. Moretti. Florida.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 341
Mr. Halley. Did 3^011 know Al Anastasia ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long liave you known liim ?
Mr. MoRETTi. About 25 years.
Mr. Halley. Have you had any business dealings with him ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. What is his business ?
Mr. Moretti. I can't answer.
Mr, Halley. How about Frank Barrata ?
Mr. Moretti. What?
Mr. Halley. Frank Barrata, do you know him?
Mr, Moretti. Frank who?
Mr. Halley. B-a-r-r-a-t-a.
Mr. Moretti. Barrata? I don't get the name.
Mr. Halley. Did you know Paul the Barber ; they call him Paul
DeLucia, from Chicago?
Mr. Moretti. Paul
Mr. Halley, Yes. He is sometimes called Paul Ricca, too.
Mr. Moretti. I think I met him.
Mr. Halley. The chairman says it is Paul the Waiter.
Mr. Moretti. I think I met him once or twice.
Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him ?
Mr. Moretti. Probably in New York or at a race track. You meet
a lot of people at the race track.
Mr. Halley. And you have never gone to Chicago, yourself ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; been there a couple of times.
Mr. Halley. You have ? Did you know Al Capone ?
Mr. Moretti, I knew him very well,
Mr. Halley. When did you first meet Al ?
Mr. Moretti. Around 1922 or 1923.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever stop at that hotel that he had his head-
quarters at?
Mr. Moretti. Never been there.
Mr. Halley. The Lexington Hotel ?
Mr. Moretti. I have never been there.
Mr. Halley. How did you get to meet Al ?
Mr, Moretti, At a race track.
Mr, Halley, Who introduced you?
Mr. Moretti. Listen, well-charactered people, you don't need in-
troductions; you just meet automatically.
Mr. Halley, Let us get this again. Well-charactered people, you
say
Mr, Moretti, Don't need introductions; they meet automatically.
Mr, Halley, In other words, if j^ou are a person prominent in the
mob, you just meet automatically.
Mr. Moretti, Don't have to be a mob.
Mr. Sullivan. I object. I do not think he said prominent iu the
mob. Mr. IVIoretti has tried to be very honest.
Mr. Halley. That was a statement, not a question.
Isn't that what it adds u]) to when you talk about people wo have
been talking about, you do automatically meet them?
Mr. Moretti. Automatically, you meet, yes.
342 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. And the group of people we have been talking about
are in various businesses where they can make a little more money
than the next fellow makes ; isn't that correct ?
Mr. MoRETTi. They will have to answer that question for them-
selves ; I only answer for myself.
Mr. Halley. I think you said where they can make 6 percent more
than anybody else, isn't that right?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And the businesses generally have to do with gambling
or some other type of illegitimate activity ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is only my opinion.
]Mr. Halley. That is good enough.
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Halley, I do not think from the testimony of the
witness that has been characterized as illegitimate. He has not said
that any of these people have carried on illegitimate businesses. He
has merely stated they go to the race track and gamble, and that they
make their money in manners where they are able by their smartness
to go out to the race track or some other form of gambling, and make
mone3\ He does not say that it is illegitimate.
Mr. Halley. Thank you. I think the record will speak for itself.
It is a public record, and we can both read it later and see what it says.
Do you know Tony Accardo ? I think you mentioned you do.
Mr. MoRETTi. I think I mentioned ; I am not sure.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever on his boat down in Florida ? He has
a yacht down there.
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think I know he has got a yacht. If he has
got another name, I maybe know him. Has he got another name ?
Mr. Halley. Tony Accardo — Joe Batters.
Mr. MoRETTi. I niet him a few times; he has got a boat. George
knows everybody.
Mr. Halley. iHe knows you pretty well.
Mr. INIORETTT. A good friend of mine.
Mr. Halley. And from time to time you talked to George, is that
right?
Mr. MoRETTi. I say "Hello" to him ; that is all I can say to him.
Mr. Halley. Well, we are talking about George White, for the
record ; George White is a well-known member of the Narcotics Bureau
staif , is he not ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr, Halley. And sometimes he needs information about these peo-
ple who I have been calling the mob, isn't that right ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is his business, not mine.
Mr. Halley. And he comes to various people in an effort to get it,,
is that right ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Sometimes; who wants to volunteer it? I know I
never volunteered any to him yet.
Mr. Halley. I am sure of that ; I believe he tried.
Mr. MoRETTi. He tries hard, I will tell you that.
Mr. Halley. And you are one of the people with whom he tries,,
is that right?
Mr. ;Morettl He has tried, but he was not so successful, because I
don't know anything.
Mr. Halley. We will say for the record that he has done pi-etty
well, in general.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 343
Mr, MoRETTi. That is right.
Mr. Hallet. You do know Tony Accardo then, Joe Batters ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Eight.
Mr. Halley. And you have seen him a few times ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right.
Mr. Halley. In Chicago, too ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, never.
Mr. Halley. Just from Florida ?
]Mr. MoRETTi. Florida.
Mr. Halley. Were you in Florida last year ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Harry Russell ?
INIr. JVIoRETTi. Who ?
Mr. Halley. Harry Russell.
INIr. jSIoretti. I read about him in the paper ; I met so many people,
I don't know if I met him in New York.
JSIr. Halley. He is the bookie in Chicago who went down and got
into the S. & G. syndicate.
Mr. INIoRETTi, Only what I read in the newspapers.
Mr. Halley. You never met him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think so.
Mr. Halley. Do you ever go to the dog track ?
]Mr. MoRETTi. Now and then.
JNIr. Halley. Did you ever meet Johnston, William Johnston, who
runs it ? '
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. Did you know John Patton ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think I met him once or twice.
Mr. Halley. Where did you meet him ?
Mr. Moretti. At the dog track, I think.
Mr. Halley. He is one of the owners of the dog track ?
Mr. Moretti. I can't answer that,
Mr. Halley. Who introduced you to Patton ?
Mr. jSIoretti. I just told you before, a man with character means
everything ; everybody that is character, they meet one another, auto-
matically they meet.
Mr. Halley. What kind of character are you referring to ?
INlr. ]\Ioretti. They don't need introduction. A man that is well
known, they don't need introduction.
]\lr. Halley. What kind of character, good or bad character ?
]\Ir. JSIoretti. A man that is well known. How do you get well
known, when you get write-ups.
Mr. Halley. Just how do you mean ? How does it work ; can you
sort of draw a picture ?
Mr. Moretti. I can't draw a picture there.
Mr. Halley. Well, suppose you went to the track and, for instance,
let us take somebody from California that you say you have never
met, Adamo, for instance. Mo Mo Adamo; suppose you went to the
track and he happened to be there. How would you meet him ?
Mr, Moretti, Probably somebody pointing you out, saying, "That's
Willie Moore," and he points you out.
Mr. Halley. You are pretty well known, so if you go to the track
they would surround you ?
344 ORGANIZED CRIIVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right; they surround me like they surround
Jimmy Durante ; they surround me because I win all of the time.
Mr. Halley. They surround you because you win most of the time ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Most of the times I do.
Mr. Halley. And you know lots of people ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I know lots of people.
Mr. Halley. Have you got lots of influence in New Jersey? Are
you known as a man with influence ?
Mr. Sullivan. I really don't think he can answer that question,
"Are you known as a man of influence in New Jersey," and I don't
think he really understands it.
The Chairman. Mr. Sullivan, let. us say political influence.
Mr. Sullivan. We understand that better than just influence.
Mr. MoRETTi. Will you ask that question again, please?
Mr. Halley. Are you known as somebody with political influence
in New Jersey?
Mr. MoRETTi. Everybody thinks so, anyhow.
Mr. Halley. Do you think so ?
Mr. Moretti. I know a lot of people.
Mr. Halley. Do you know many politicians?
Mr. Moretti. A lot of them.
Mr. Halley. Do you know people who are now in office?
Mr. Moretti. A lot of them.
Mr. Halley. Well, who are some of your friends who are promi-
nent? -
Mr. Moretti. I don't care to reveal their names right at present.
Mr. Halley. Let us try. Who are some that you know?
Mr. Moretti. Well, one I know real well is Congressman Towe
who was the deputy attorney general when I was nolle prossed in my
murder case ; I can't deny knowing him.
Mr. Halley. Well, who else do you know very well ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, a lot of other people ; I don't care to mention
any names.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever known any prosecutors, any district
attorneys?
Mr. ^Ioretti. Yes, I know Johnny Basnone; he was my lawyer
when I had my murder case in Bergen County.
Mr. Halley. Who else do you know ?
I don't care to mention any names.
Do you belong to any political clubs ?
I like to know who doesn't that is well known.
Well, do you belong to any?
I don't belong to any ; I am a bipartisan.
You are bipartisan? [Laughter.]
Yes.
In other words, you know politicians in both parties ;
Botli parties, right.
Do you make that a part of your business to do that?
Part of my character, not business.
You just like to know politicians?
That is right.
And it comes in handy to know them, too?
Mr.
Moretti.
Mr.
Halley.
Mr.
Moretti.
Mr.
Halley.
Mr.
IMOREITI.
Mr.
Halley.
Mr.
Moretti.
Mr.
Halley.
is that
right?
Mr.
IMoRErn.
Mr.
Haliey.
Mr.
]\Ioretti.
Mr.
Halley.
Mr.
jNIoRErii.
Mr.
Halley.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 345
Mr. IVIoRETTi. Well, I don't kno\y ; I can't answer that. It ain't so
handy when there is a fellow I know real well, he is in the can doing
1 to 3'years on a aamblino- charge.
Mr."^ Halley. Yon mean Guarino?
JSIr. INIoRETTi. Yes.
]Mr. Halley. You did not expect him not to go to the can ?
Mr. JMoRETTi. If I knew somebody I would try to pull a wire.
Mr. Halley. How would you expect him not to go to the can after
it came out in the New York case?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is what I heard, he pleaded guilty.
:Mr. Halley. Do you think if the case had not been brought up in
New York he would never have gone to jail?
Mr. IMoRETTi. Who knows ? He claims he has been running without
protection here and there, and a man pays protection can't get ar-
rested, I don't think.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever made any political contributions?
Mr. MoRETTi. I refuse to answer that.
Mr. Halley. Well, let us make sure we know what we are talking
about.
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think it has anything to do with this investiga-
tion.
Mr. Halley. The committee has to make that decision, Mr. Moretti,
and I must say, I think you have been trying to answer the questions
frankly and fully, and 1 would not like to see us get into a dispute at
this point if we can help it.
Mr. Moretti. I have been very good to you.
Mr. Halley. Well, you have not been good to me ; you have been
good to yourself, just remember that. This is serious business, so let
us try to go slowly and think about it.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Moretti, tell us how you operate
politically.
Mr. JNIoRETTi. I don't operate politically. If I was, I would be a
Congressman here, maybe sitting where you are. [Laughter.]
The Chairman. If you are a good operator, you might some day.
Mr. Moretti. If it was not for my first conviction I would be where
you are now. That is how lucky I have been with my life.
The Chairman. If it had not been for your what?
Mr. Moretti. My first conviction.
The Chairman. You do not think your subsequent convictions had
anything to do with it ?
Mr. Sullivan. Senator, he has not had subsequent ; there are only
two convictions there.
The Chairman. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Moretti really believes, Senator, that if he did
not get this start in Harlem — if you know the story of his early life
up there in that community, which I think Mr. Halley knows about —
that connnunity Mr. Halley knows about — I think Mr. Moretti might
have gone far in that fashion.
The Chairman. I think that is right ; I think it is correct that when
a fellow gets started in the wrong way it is hard to get back to the
track.
68958— 51— pt. 7 23
346 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Sullivan. Well, he has gotten back to the right track, Senator.
The Chairman. How difficult is it, Mr. Movetti, when you got a first
conviction, and you got associated with the wrong sort of people, to
get yourself loose
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think I associated with the wrong kind of
people, Senator; I know all kinds of people.
The Chairman. Weil, Mr. Halley has read a lot of people that
we have heard a lot about. You do not think they were the wrong
people ?
Mr. MoRETTi. In my estimation I think they were all good people.
The Chairman. Good people ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think bad people should be behind bars. They are
not behind bars yet.
The Chairman. I grant you a lot of them are still out, Mr. Moretti.
Now, the question was wliether any substantial political contribu-
tions that you have made. That is a proper question.
Mr. Moretti. I never made any.
The Chairman. Never made any ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever taken part in a political campaign for
a political candidate ?
Mr. Moretti. Well, through friendly sources, yes.
Mr. Halley. You have urged people to vote for one candidate or
another i
Mr. Moretti. People ask my opinion, "Who's the right candidate?"
I give them my opinion. A lot of people respect my opinion.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever make small contributions to political
campaigns ?
Mr. Moretti. I never made no contributions.
Mr. Halley. None at all ?
Mr. Moretti. Only my voice.
Mr. Halley. Why did you refuse to answer it originally if the
answer was that simple ?
Mr. Moretti. The what ?
Mr. Halley. Why did you originally refuse to answer that ques-
tion? You could have just said you did not do it.
Mr. Sullivan. I do not think he really understood you clearly.
Mr. Moretti. I didn't understand you. I am hard of hearing a
little bit.
Mr. Halley. I think you understood me, Mr. Moretti.
]Mr. ]\IoRETTi. What question is that ?
]Mr. Halley. When I asked you if you had ever made any political
contributions and you refused to answer. I really think you under-
stood me.
Mr. Moretti. I never made no political contributions.
]\Ir. Halley. The present question is. Why did you refuse to answer
it originally if you never made any? That would have been a nice,
sim]>le answer.
I don't think I refused. Maybe I didn't understand
I think you did.
Well I have to differ witli you.
Do you know a Mr. Van Riper ?
Mr.
, MOREITI,
you.
ISIr.
Mr
Mr
. Halley.
. ]\l0RETTI.
. Halley.
ORGANIZED CRIIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 347
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
M V. Halley. Never met him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mr. Marsh ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever make any contributions to him?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. At no time?
Mr. Moretti. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Pete Licavoli ?
Mr. Moretti. Who?
Mr. Halley. Pete Licavoli.
Mr. Moretti. The name don't hit me.
Mr. Halley, He comes from Detroit.
Mr. Moretti. I probably do; probably I don't. I know a lot of
people.
Mr. Halley. He has a ranch in Tucson.
Mr. Moretti. Oh, yes.
Mr. Halley. You know him?
Mr. Moretti. I met him a few times ; yes.
Mr. Halley. You have been to his ranch ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir; never been in Arizona; only once, in 1943.
I was there when I got sick. I was there about a or 6 days in a hotel
in Arizona. Then I went to California.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been to H 't Springs?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Wlien were you thcie last^
Mr. Moretti. Last time I tliink I was there in '43, the winter
of '43.
Mr. Halley. Who did you go with ?
Mr, Moretti. Arthur Longano,
Mr, Halley, Arthur Longano?
Mr, Moretti. Arthur Longano. He is sitting right here.
Mr. Halley. How long die! you stay?
Mr. Moretti. I think about 30 days.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Mafia?
Mr. Moretti. Whom?
Mr. Halley, Mafia?
Mr. Moretti. Read about it.
Mr. Halley. You mean in the newspapers ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley, Have you ever heard about it ?
Mr. Moretti. Just in newspapers.
Mr. Halley. Never talked to anybody about it?
Mr, Moretti, No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know anything about it yourself ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever heard of the Unione Siciliano ?
Mr. Moretti. Just in newspapers.
Mr. Halley, You have no knowledge of it yourself ?
Mr, Moretti. The only knowledge I have is what I read in the
newspapers, what papers read about it — what they write about it; 1
read it.
348 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. You are not a member of either the Mafia or the Unione
Siciliano?
Mv. MoRETTi. What do you mean by a member, carry a card with
Mafia on it?
Mr. Halley. No. I am not being humorous now.
Mr. MoRETTi. I mean to be a member you've got to carry a card.
You got to be initiated.
Mr. Halley. It is a secret organization. You have read that,
haven't you ?
Mr. Morettl That's all; just in newspapers.
Mr. Halley. And I ask you if you belong to such a secret organi-
zation.
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. And do you know anybody or have you ever known
anybody who did?
Mr. Moretti. How could I know if it don't exist?
Mr. Halley. You know nothing about it ?
Mr. Moretti. For my knowledge it don't exist.
Mr. Halley. That is your best knowledge ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir. I think I made a statement in 1946 when
Williams gave me a bad write-up.
Mr. Halley. You mean Williams of the Narcotics Bureau?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir. George White knows him; took George
White's place.
Mr. Halley. He is a very able man.
Mr. Moretti. Yes. He gave me a write-up and I answered him
light back. He never answered me.
Mr. Halley. What did he say about you ?
Mr. Moretti. He said about Mafia, about dope, and everything else.
Mr. Halley. Williams is the head of the Narcotics office in New
York.
Mr. Moretti. That is right, and I never met him.
Mr. Halley. And did he say you were a leader of the Mafia ?
Mr. Moretti. He put that in the newspapers, so I answered him
right back. I don't think there was an organization like that, to my
knowledge. I speak for myself, not for anybody else.
Mr. Halley. Did he also say that you were connected with dope
running ?
Mr. Moretti. He tried to, but he didn't get too far. I'm still here.
Mr. Halley. You have never been accused of that ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir; I don't even know what it looks like.
Mr. Halley. And you have never had anything to do with the dope ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. I think you said you never operated any kind of a
gambling game; is that right?
Mr. Moretti. Right.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever hear of the Troi)ic Inn in ^Mountain
Yiew?
Mr. Moretti. Tropic Inn?
Mr. Halley. Yes, or the Tropical Inn in Mountain View. X. J.
Mr. IVIoRETTi. It doesn't hit me. Tropic Inn ?
Mr. Halley- Well you know where Mountain View is?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 349
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; a friend of mine has a place there, Jimmy Dono-
hiie in Mountain View. I go there quite often.
Mr. Hallet. What is his place called ?
Mr. MoRETTi. A big, high-class restaurant, frankfurter, and
everything.
IMr. Halley. What is the name of it ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think they call it Donohue's.
Mr. Halley. Donohue's ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. I am talking about a place called the Tropical Inn.
jMr. Moretti. I have no knowledge of that name at all.
ISIr. Halley. Maybe you know it as the Tropics Inn?
]Mr. JMoRETTi. It doesn't hit me.
Mr. Halley. Did jou ever run a gambling establishment there?
Mr. Moretti. JNle ? Never.
]Mr. Halley. You had nothing to do with one ?
Mr. Moretti. I never ow^ned one. I told you I never ran one
before.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever have a piece of one ?
Mr. Moretti. Xo, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any piece of the place at 1205 McBride
Avenue, the West Paterson Lawn and Tennis Club ?
Mr. Moretti. Xo, sir.
Mr. Halley. You know the place, though ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Halley. You were never in it ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't think so,
INIr. Halley. Were you ever in a place at Lodi ?
Mr. Moretti. What ?
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in a place at Lodi ?
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. 'Halley, with respect to that question now, I want
to point out to Senator Kefauver that the district attorney, or Mr.
Stamler, who is the superseding district attorney in Bergen County,
has served a subpena on Mr. Moretti to appear before the grand jury.
It appears from everything that we can derive from talking to Mr.
Selser — of course, I have nothing to do with that case in New Jersey ;
I am simply appearing in this matter here, but it appeai-s — that they
have this indictment where they said some gambling took place up
there, and I think that Mr. Moretti should claim his constitutional
privilege as to whether or not he has been in such places, because some-
body might say, "You are there," and then adding something to
another, why, you don't know what is going to happen to him.
Now at this time I would like also. Senator — I will take a minute;
I haven't bored you with much interruption — to point out that I
believe that your disposition of the objections concerning the right
of a witness to refuse to testify and pennitting him only to refuse,
if a violation of a Federal statute might be involved, it certainly
seems to me that every State has a constitution that guarantees people
the very same thing that is contained in the Bill of Rights, and it
doesn't seem to me proper that you can make a travesty of those
constitutions and violate all the rights through the medium of a
Senate committee, and indirectly compel a man to testify against
himself.
350 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
For that reason I am very sincere in urging you, Senator, to have
you reconsider that decision with respect to this question for Mr.
Moretti, because I don't think it is a right decision.
The Chairman. Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Moretti has been fairly coopera-
tive with us. We do not ask him any questions that are not proper
questions. So far as the decisions are concerned, the present state
of the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States, as we
interpret the decisions, are that he only has a right to refuse to answer
questions which might convict him of a Federal offense. If we ex-
tended that, then, of course, we would never get anywhere in our
inquiry.
Then you might extend it to local ordinances or you might extend
it so that there could be no question, hardly, that you could ask a
witness. Anyway, that is the ruling of the committee. We have
discussed the matter at considerable length.
Mr. Sullivan. We have a New York decision which holds, if the
Senator please, that you may not be compelled to testify in New York
about a Federal offense.
You won't be subjected to any prosecution in a New York matter,
but the New York courts have held that you cannot be compelled
to testify on a matter which might subject you to a Federal, possibility
of a Federal prosecution.
Senator IvEFAtn'ER. Some States have the rule and others
Mr. Sullivan. If you could cloak him with immunity, as Mr. Selser
has pointed out
The Chairman. We will be glad to furnish you with a memoran-
dum and brief which we have on it, which is pretty definite, I think,
Mr. Sullivan.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, I would like to state that only last
week the third circuit court of appeals in the case of Cappy Hoffman
took the same position that this committee is taking, that a witness
there, before a grand jury holding hearings in Philadelphia, must
answer questions even though they might tend to incriminate him
under State law.
May I also, Mr. Chairman, while the subject is before the commit-
tee, attempt to clarify the recent Blau decision of the Supreme Court,
for the benefit of counsel, who I think may have it in mind.
The Blau decision dealt solely with incrimination under Federal
law, and in the Blau decision the Supreme Court said very simply
that a man does not have to go right up to the step before admitting
guilt, that he need not give the step just before the admission of guilt
from which guilt could be clearly inferred.
In other words, if a man is accused of being in a conspiracy to
overthrow this Government, he does not have to admit he is a Com-
munist when the mere fact of being a Communist is very strong
evidence of being in such a conspiracy. That is what the Su-
preme Court said, as I read the decision, and I would like to point out
that they very clearly distinguish a mere imaginary possibility or
anything that does not take a man right up to the point of admitting
guilt.
Of course, here there is no evidence that anybody has brought forth
that Mr. William Moretti had anything to do personally with these
gambling houses, and he has not offered any, so that at the present
time
ORGANIZED CRIIVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 351
Mr. Sullivan. He is subpenaed.
Mr. Halley. He is a witness. His brother had a very prominent
part in them. His close associates, Ricca, Catena, and Longano, witli
whom he has gone to Tucson, Hot Springs, and to Habana, are all
involved in it, so that obviously he is an important witness.
Mr. Sullivan. But, Mr. Halley, there are many decisions which
hold that the Government — you may not compel a witness to forge
that last link in a chain. You are familiar with that.
Mr. Halley. Link in a chain against other people we are talking
about now. There is nothing to show it is a link in a chain against
him.
The Chairman. Mr. Sullivan, I do not think you contend seriously
that even if Mr. Moretti said that he had been in some places, that he
is being charged with operating these places. I mean, it is not un-
lawful for him to go to a restaurant.
Mr. Sullivan. Some of the prosecutions that you see sponsored
today are really pretty far afield from anything t ever knew about
prosecutions in years gone by.
Mr. Halley. The question is, Have you ever been in the gambling
establishments at Lodi 'i
Mr. MoRETTi. I think 1 have a right to — go ahead, you answer that.
Even if I wasn't in there, somebody put me in there just to elaborate
on it. There was a conviction in that Lodi place.
Mr. Halley. That is right.
Mr. Moretti. Is that right? Even if I wasn't in there, people
elaborated that I was. Is that right?
Mr. Halley. Well, were you there? The question is. Were you?
Mr. Moretti. Because people like to see anybody with character
around. I told you a friend of mine ran the place, and he is convicted.
The Chairman. The question was, have you been there, Mr. Moretti,
and I will say to counsel we are not pursuing the matter, it is not our
information that he was tied up with the operations. He will be asked
no questions in that regard. The question is, have you been to Lodi,
the gambling place in Bergen County.
Mr. Moretti. I was there once, to talk to Tony Guarino, 7 o'clock
at night.
Mr. Halley. Just once. Did you ever see James Longano?
Mr. Moretti. Longano, I did not.
Mr. Halley. Jerry Catena ?
Mr. Moretti. I did not. I was there the early part of the evening.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Joe Adonis there ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir. •
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in a gambling establishment in
West Paterson, at 1205 McBride Avenue?
Mr. Moretti. I don't remember if I was. What year was that?
Mr. Halley. That was about 1944 or '45.
Mr. Moretti. Who knows. People collaborate. I was in there, too,
but I don't remember being in there.
Mr. Halley. That is your answer?
Mr. Moretti. That's right.
Mr. Halley, You answer that you remember it. Were you ever in
a place called the Carriage Factory just off the George Washington
Bridge?
Mr. Moretti. Carriage Factory ?
352 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet. Yes.
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in the All-American Studios, Pali-
sades ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I have no knowledge of that ; never heard of that.
Mr. Halley. Would you tell the committee how long you have been
connected with the U. S. Linen Supply Co. ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Since 1936.
Mr. Halley. And how did you first make your connection with
them ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, Johnny Welsh, Ben Golden, and Mark Golden,
which they are my associates in this laundry business, I met them on
that indictment of 1934, that blanket indictment. I didn't know them
too well until then, and they got sentenced to 6 months.
I got a suspended sentence from Judge Delaney, tougher than Judge
Rosalsky, and there's where I got the acquaintance.
When they come out after they did G months, we got together.
They had a proposition of a linen business. Being I'm well known
by everybody, they took me in with them. I think they invested the
first time maybe 2 or 3 thousand dollars in 1936, and they made
me president of the firm. We called it the U. S. Linen Supply
business.
Mr. Halley. Had you had any previous experience in that or in
any other business ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; I had no experience at all.
Mr. Halley. AVere you made president because you were a well-
known character ?
Mr. Morettt. Just because a lot of people know me and I can get
business, that's all.
Mr. Halley. Because you have a lot of friends ?
Mr. Moretti. That's riglit; they know I have and everybody else
knows I have.
Mr. Halley. And did you get business for them ?
Mr. JMoRE'rn. Plenty of business; in a polite way, too.
Mr. Halley. What do you mean by that?
Mr. Moretti. Because they tried to accuse me that I bulldozed peo-
jjle for tlie business. I made a statement, if they could prove it, I
would dissolve the business immediately.
Mr. Halley. How large a company is that ?
Mr. Moretti. Very large company, from $200-a-day business I
brought it up to $13,500-a-week business.
Mr. Halley. That is its present business?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And what percentage of the company do you own?
Mr. Moretti. I used to have 20 percent. Now the business that
gave me a lot of trouble, the Noxall that I took some business away
from because I was
The Chairman. I did not understand that, Mr. Moretti.
Mr. INIoRETTi. The Noxall Linen Supply Co. of Hackensack, a cor-
poration, a big firm of consolidated laundries. Their president gave
me a lot of trouble. They had a big meeting once, and they accused
me of taking their business away from them, and they're the ones
made the complaint, and I was hit with it in 1939 before the grand
jury, so when I was hit there was that question, so I made a statement
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJMMERCE 353
then at that time that if they could prove of the accusations, I am
willing to suffer the consequence and go out of business, so it hasn't
been proven yet. I am still in business.
Mr. Halley. What is that, what year ?
Mr. MoRETTi. 1939.
Mr. Halley. And they claimed you were using strong-arm methods ?
Mr. INIoRETTi. I used the arm and everything else with them.
Mr. Halley. They claimed you were using strong-arm ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What finally happened? Did you make peace with
them?
Mr, Moretti. I tell you what happened. There was a big investi-
gation of the syndicate of the laundries.
Mr. Halley!^ Who made the investigation?
Mr. Moretti. The Government.
Mr. Halley. The State government?
Mr. Moretti. Yes. No, no ; the United States Government.
Mr. Halley. The Federal grand jury?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And what happened ?
Mr. Moretti. I think they indicted 61 laundries outside of mine.
Mr. Halley. Yours was not indicted ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Was Noxall indicted ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir ; they were all indicted. Every one of them
was indicted but me.
Mr. Halley. What were they indicted for ?
Mr. Moretti. Whatever they did I don't know. You will have
to ask them. Big investigation. The Federal department come over
and asked me a lot of questions ; did they try to knock me out of busi-
ness. Nobody tried to knock me out of business.
Mr. Sullivan. Probably a conspiracy to monopolize business, I
think. Mr. Halley. I have never heard of it before, and that is what
I think it would be, to clarify his testimony.
Mr. Moretti. Something like that. It's on records anyhow.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever work for the Noxall Co. or have an
interest in it ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir. The Noxall then— this fellow that made all
the complaints, he was the president of the Noxall, probably presi-
dent — he was the president of the association that made all the com-
plaints. Fortunately God helped me and this fellow went horseback
riding, fell off the horse, got kicked in the head by a horse and died,
so his company became my partners after he died.
Mr. Halley. They joined your company ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir ; and they made me vice president.
Mr. Halley. You are now vice president of the Noxall Co.
Mr. Moretti. Eight.
Senator Tobey. How do you spell Noxall?
Mr. Sullivan. N-o-x-a-1-1, Senator.
Mr. Moretti. Linen Supply Corp. They merged with me in 1945,
July 1.
Mr. Halley. What is your total weekly business now, Mr. Moretti?
Mr. Moretti. I get $240 a week.
354 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE
Mr. Halley. That is your salary?
Mr. MoRETTi. My salary; yes.
Mr. Halley. From the two companies?
Mr. MoRETTi. Right.
Mr. Halley. One is the U. S. Linen Supply Co. and the other you
call U. S. Linen Laundry Service, is that right?
Mr, MoRETTi. Right. .
Mr. Halley. And is the laundry service the combined company that
Noxall joined?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; they are in my firm now.
Mr. Halley. Doesn't that business pay you any dividends?
Mr. IMoRETTi. Well, not under conditions now. I got very little
dividend out of that, because we got a lot of linens and there's been a
war on and we had to stock up with linens. We got a lot of stock.
Mr. Halley. Then you must have a large net worth in the company,
is that right?
Mr. MoRETTi. Right.
Mr. Halley. You have been plowing the profits back into the busi-
ness?
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right.
Mr. Sullivan. Any appreciation, Mr. Halley, in the real property
is really tremendous.
Mr. MoRETTi. I have a picture if you want to look at it.
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. MoRETTi. I bought a whole block for $10,000 from Passaic
County, the whole block. The building cost about four hundred
thousand. I bought it for ten thousand.
Mr. Halley. How did you do that?
Mr. Sullivan. Hard times, I believe.
• Mr. Halley. Let him answer.
Mr. Sullivan. When did you buy it?
Mr. JNIoRETTi. Depression ; just to pay the taxes.
Mr. Halley. Did you buy it on a tax lien?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir; bought it from the county for $10,000.
Mr. Halley. On a tax lien, in what year?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think in either '40 or '41.
Mr. Halley. You say it was worth $400,000?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think it's worth — it had a big silk mill tliere, block
square.
Mr. Halley. That is in Paterson ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Paterson, N. J.
Mr. Halley. And that is still your headquarters ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. What is the total net worth of your two companies,
U . S. Linen Supply and U. S. Laundry Service ?
Mr. Moretti. It's worth — I w^as offered $850,000.
Mr. Halley. For your own interest or for the whole thing?
Mr. Moretti. No ; for the whole thing, the whole company.
Mr. Halley. And how much of the company do you own ?
Mr. Moretti. I own now probably — well, they become partners,,
w^e're seven-handed now, so figure it out.
Mr. Halley. You have one-seventh ?
Mr. Moretti. Right.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 355
Mr. Halley. And do all partners work for the company, too ? Do
all the partners work for the company ?
]Mr. MoRETTi. Every one of them.
Mr. Hallet. Do you still work for it actively ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir ; very actively.
Mr. Halley. "V^^iat do you do ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I go to meetings there probably two, three times a
month.
Mr. Halley. Do you do anything else ?
Mr. MoRETTi. When they get complaints and people leave us, some-
body that I could talk to, I go and talk to him.
Mr. Halley. Did your brother work it for a while ?
Mr. ]\IoRETTi. While I was sick.
Mr. Halley. He took over for you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. He is not in it now, though ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Halley, I think we should get it clear that this
building here
Mr. MoRETTi. That is the building ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that the building you bought for $10,000?
Mr. MoRETTi. $10,000 ; yes, sir.
Mr. Sullivan. On a tax lien.
The Chairj^ian. That is 113-137 North First Street.
Senator Tobey. Under the New Jersey tax laws, if you buy that
building on tax lien, how long a period after you purchase can the
owner who has owned it rei)levin it by paying back taxes ^
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't know. I tell you we paid $10,000 for it. I
know they lost the building, the people that had it. It belonged to the
county. We bought it off the county.
Senator Tobey. They do not have a period under the law there
where they can buy it back ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think so, because I still have it.
Mr. Sullivan. I think they have a drastic law there. Senator, that
they sell it out very quickly. We are getting one like that in New
York, too, where you don't have those periods.
The Chairman. They had an auction, and you went to the auction
and bought it ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't remember whether it was the auction or not.
Bob Neilley was sort of a politician.
The Chairman. Who is that ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Bob Neilley.
The Chairman. What does he do ?
Mr. MoRETTi. He used to be a Democrat leader in Passaic County,
and he is a water commissioner.
The Chairman. He is the assistant vice president of the Noxall
Linen Supply Co. ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Right.
The Chairman. And he arranged it so you could buy it?
]\Ir. Moretti. Yes.
The Chairman. How much do you expect he could have gotten
more than $10,000 for that business?
Mr. Moretti. Well, at that time you could have bought it for a
nickel.
356 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. 1941?
Mr. MoRETTi. I think it was 1940 or 1941.
The Chairman. How long is this building, how many feet? It is
a whole square block, but how big a block is that ?
Mr. MoRETTi. You can look at it there.
Mr. Sullivan. What is the size ?
The Chairman. It appears to be several hundred feet long.
Mr. MoRETTi. Several hundred ; it's more than that.
The Chairman. Seven hundred what?
Mr. MoRETTi. It's more than that.
The Chairman. I did not understand.
INlr. MoRETTi. It nnist be around probably 300 feet long, I don't
know. That's a whole block square.
The Chairman. I know, but I am trying to find out how big a
block it is, three or four hundred feet one way, and how long the other
way?
Mr. MoRETTi. Maj'be 150, 175 feet, maybe more than that. I have
two boilers in there that probably cost the people $100,000, one with
coal and one with oil.
Mr. Sullivan. Tlie silk industry moved out of Paterson, Senator,
in those times, with these new inventions of textiles ; and Paterson was
a ghost town, as I remember it at that time.
Mr. MoRETTi. That is right.
The Chairman. Is there any objection to making this an exhibit?
Mr. Sullivan. I don't know what he has got written on that page,
Senator. I was just showing it to you. I would like to look at it.
The CiiAiR^iAx. He has the names of the officers of the various
companies on here.
Mr. Sullivan. That is right.
The Chairman. If he wants to cut the other oif, it is all right.
Mr. Sullivan. All right. Senator.
Mr. MoRETTi. I just wrote that just to memorize some items that
I don't make an error.
The Chairman. Look at it and see if there is an error on here.
Mr, Halley. Who was the partner that arranged the purchase?
Mr. INfoRETTi. Bob Neilley.
Mr. Halley. Bob Neilley. He was formerly the sheriff of Passaic
County, was he not?
Mr. MoRETTi. Sheriff? Gee, I don't know. He's been on the water
commission appointed by the Democrats and Republicans.
Mr. Halley. How many of your present partners were indicted
with you in 1934?
Mr. MoRETTi. Three.
Mr. Halley. That is the two Golden brothers ?
Mr. MoRETTi. They weren't my partners then.
Mr. Halley. But they are now?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You say they were never in the numbers racket?
Mr. Moretti. What?
Mr. Halley. You say they were never in the numbers racket?
Mr. Moretti. I don't know that. They pleaded guilty. They must
have been.
Mr. Halley. You pleaded guilty.
Mr. Moretti. I pleaded guilty with an understanding.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 357
Mr. Halley. They did not plead with any understanding?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. So you think they must have been in the numbers
racket ?
Mr, MoRETTi. They pleaded guilty. I don't know if they were in,
but they pleaded guilty.
Mr. Halley. Are they in the numbers racket today?
Mr. MoRETTi. I can't answej: that.
Mr. Halley. You are not sure one way or the other?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I am not interested.
Mr. Halley. Who is Johnny Welsh?
Mr. Moretti. ]\Iy vice president.
Mr. Halley. In your company?
Mr. Moretti Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Is he in the numbers racket ?
Mr. Moretti. What did you say ?
Mr. Halley. Is he in the numbers racket ?
Mr. Moretti. That is the one that pleaded guilty to the numbers.
Mr. Halley. With the Golden brothers?
Mr. Moretti. Yes. They got 6 months apiece, if I remember
correctly.
Mr. Halley. Do you know James Cerce?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, I do.
Mr. Halley. How long do you know him ?
Mr. Moretti. Probably twenty-some-odd years.
Mr. Halley. He lives in Paterson, is that right ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley* What is his business?
Mr. Moretti. I don't know what's his business. I think he is a
gambler too in the race track.
Mr. Halley. He is a bookie, is he not ?
Mr. Moretti. I can't answer that. I think so. I can't be sure.
Mr. Halley. Have you any business with Cerce ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. No business connections whatsoever ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Only a good friend?
Mr. Moretti. That's all.
Mr. Halley. Does Cerce ever go to Duke's ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever offer anybody $2,500?
Mr. Moretti. What?
Mr. Halley. Did you ever offer anybody $2,500 to get out of town
so they would not appear before this Senate committee?
Mr. Moretti. I heard that yesterday while you were questioning
my brother. I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Halley. You do not think there is anything to that story ?
Mr. Moretti. No. I think that's a story put up for some half-wit,
offer somebody $2,500. I should need more credit than that.
Mr. Halley. It was said there was a meeting at your brother's
home with you and Pete Laplaca, Joe Laplaca ; you know them ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Halley. The Golden brothers, Bob Neilley and Johnny Welsh,
and that meeting took place in August one afternoon, and that you
358 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
told Johnny Welsh to give $2,500 to anybody connected with the
numbers racket who might be called upon to testify before this com-
mittee, told them to take a vacation and stay out of sight.
Mr. JMoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Hallet. No truth to that whatsoever ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir, not to my knowledge ; no, sir.
INIr. Hallet. You have a great many friends and seem to have a
pretty good idea of what goes on.
Mr. MoRETTi. I what ?
Mr. Halley. I say, you seem to have a pretty good idea of what goes
on. Can you explain why for a very long time practically every
one of the witnesses sought by this committee just disappeared from
sight, could not be found at home, their wives came in and said they
could not find them, did not know where their own husbands were?
]\Ir. IVIoRETTi. I don't think any one of them ducked, to my
knowledge.
Mr. Hallet. Do you think it was all just coincidence ?
Mr. MoRETTi. It wasn't done purposely, if they did.
Mr. PIallet. For instance, the wives of, I think Jimmy Lynch, I
think Jerry Catena's wife came in and said they did not know where
their husbands were.
}.^r. MoRETTi. It happens a lot of times my wife don't know where
I am.
Mr. Hallet. For a period of a month or more ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, I wouldn't say a month. Weeks.
Mr. Hallet. For a period of weeks ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Everbody's in the same — I call my wife every day
no matter wliere I am. I'm different. I have three children. I have
five grandchildren.
Mr. Hallet. Well, these fellows all have children and their wives
seem to be nice women.
Mr. MoRETTi. People live different in this world. I live one way.
I call my family all the time.
Mr. Hallet. You think it is just a coincidence ?
Mr. MoRETTi. And I never duck anything.
Mr. Hallet. You think it is just a coincidence that anybody had
anything to do with that Lodi ■
Mr. MoRETTi. I can't call it a coincidence and I can't call it
purposely.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know Al Goldf ein ?
Mr. MORETTI. Wlio?
Mr. Hallet. Al Goldfein.
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think I do.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know Manny Schaefer?
Mr. MoRETTi. Manny Schaefer ? Probably I have met him.
Mr. Hallet. Where did you meet him?
Mr. MoRETTT. In Florida, I think.
Mr. Hallet. Where?
Mr. MoRETTi. In Florida, race track.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever see him at the Colonial Inn ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't remember if I did. I have been there, but I
don't know if I did or not.
Mr. Haixet. I don't think I asked you if you knew Meyer Lansky.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 359
Mr. MoRETTi. I do. I know him well.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know John Barker?
Mr. MoiuiTTT. John Barker; no, sir.
Mr. Hallet. You know Andrew Bruno?
Mr. MoRETTi. Who?
Mr. Hallet. Andrew Bruno.
Mr. MoRETTi. Who is he ?
Mr. Hallet. The man who owns Bruno's Restaurant.
Mr. MoRETTL Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Hallet. Did you know him when he worked at Lodi's?
Mr. MoRETTi. I know him quite some time. I don't know if he
worked there or not.
Mr. Hallet. Didn't he ever serve you a meal at Lodi's ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Me ? I don't remember if he did or not.
Mr. Hallet. Did he ever serve you a meal at any gambling place?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think so.
Mr. Hallet. Do you know Kitty Klein?
Mr. MoRETTi. Kitty Klein; yes.
Mr. Hallet. Who is he?
Mr. MoRETTi. You tell me who he is, and I'll answer you.
Mr. Hallet. I'll tell you. He was a credit man at all of these
gambling joints. Do you know who he is?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't know if he run a gambling joint or not.
Mr. Hallet. What is his business?
Mr. Moretti. I can't tell you that.
Mr. Hallet. Where did you first meet him?
Mr. Moretti. In Florida.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever see him in New Jersey ?.
Mr. Moretti. I don't think so.
Mr. Hallet. At no time ?
Mr. Moretti. I don't think so.
Mr. Hallet. Did you ever see him in Saratoga ?
Mr. INIoRETTi. I haven't been in Saratoga since it opened.
Mr. Hallet. Since what opened ?
Mr. Moretti. Since the last time it opened, I haven't been there.
Mr. Hallet. I do not understand. What opened?
Mr. Mcretti. Saratoga opened up the race track when? Three
years ago ? I haven't been there.
Mr. Hallet. You mean since the gambling opened up?
Mr. INIoRETTi. It was closed during the war, you know.
Mr. Hallet. That is right. And then the Arrowhead opened up.
Mr. Moretti. I don't know anything about it.
Mr. Hallet. You do not know anything about the Arrowhead Inn ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Hallet. You have had no connection with it ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Hallet. What has been your income from gambling? I think
you mentioned that you made $240 a week from your linen business.
Mr. Moretti. Thats' riglit.
Mr. Hallet. What did you make last year, do you remember?
Mr. IMoRETTi. Last year is when ?
Mr. Hallet. 1949.
Mr. Sullivan. Would that be the '48 income, or the '49 ?
Mr. Hallet. Let us take '49 first.
360 ORGANIZED CRIIVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. I think I filed for $31,800. Is that right? You have
it tliere.
Mr. Halley. You filed for gambling of $20,800, plus your $240 a
week. Is that right ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right. I Avon at the race track in the mutuel
machines.
Mr. Halley. You won it right at the race track ?
Mr. MoRExn. Yes.
Mr. Halley. You never gambled with any bookies at the track?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
Mi\ Halley. You just put it right in the machine?
Mr. JSIcRETTi. Right.
Mr. Halley. How much did you win gambling in 1948 ?
Mr. MoRETTi. In '48 ?
Mr. Halley. $31,200 ; is that right?
Mr. MoRETTi. I didn't win too much on horses that year, but I had a
sure thing going for me that year. I had President Truman going
for me that year.
Mr. Halley. How much did you win on President Truman's
election ?
Mr. MoRETTi. About $25,000. I win two ways in that election. I
win $10,000 on that Dewey don't carry New York City by 640,000,
even money. I thought they were crazy, and I bet that with Lou
Clayton.
Mr. Halley. Lou Clayton ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Clayton and Durante ; yes.
Mr. Halley. And what did you get the rest of your money on?
Mr. MoRETTi. I took 16 to 1 for a thousand dollars from Clayton on
Truman. I could have got a hundred the last day. Clayton robbed
me. I think he laid my thousand to somebody else. I got 16 to 1,.
and he closed 100 to 1.
Mr. Halley. You had 16 to 1 ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I had 16 to 1.
Mr. Halley. And did you bet on any other candidates that year?:
Mr. MoRETTi. No. I bet Dewey and Truman.
Mr. Halley. Who did you bet this year ?
Mr. M'oRETTi. This year on who?
Mr. Halley. Did you bet this year?
Mr. MoRETTi. There's no outstanding candidate this year, is there ?.
Mr. Halley. You did not bet on anyone this year?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't think so ; just the race track this year.
Mr. Halley. How do you keep a record of your bets ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Just on a slip of paper.
Mr. Halley. Do you have your records, for instance, for 1950 here?'
Mr. MoRETTi. No.
MV. Halley. Where is vour record for 1950?
Mr. MoRETTi. This 1950, I had about $11,000 so far. I think the
Federal Department will be stuck this year.
Mr. Halley. Have you been a little preoccupied with other things?
Mr. MoRETTi. I've been occupied with this here connnittee, subpenas
from all angles ; don't give me a chance to go to the race track.
Mr. Halley. It has interfered with your making a living?
Mr. MoRETTi. Well, I don't know. Maybe before the year closes
I may win yet.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 361
Mr. Hallet. I am interested in knowing how you keep your records
of your wins and losses.
Mr. AIoRETTi. Just I keep the program.
Mr. Hallet. You keep the program?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. H ALLEY. From the track?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes; and then after I file for it, and after 2 or 3
months, I destroy them.
Mr. Halley. Where do you record it after 2 or 3 months' when you
destroy them?
Mr. Moretti. What I put down.
Mr. Halley. Wliat have you got down for 1950?
Mr. MoRETTL About $11,000 so far.
Mr, Halley. Where is it ? Do you have the record here ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; in my mind.
Mr. Halley. You mean you keep this in your mind ?
Mr. Moretti, Most of it ; yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Each year you keep it in your mind ?
Mr. Moretti. Not all the time ; no, I told you before I keep it on
my program,
Mr. Halley, This is a good year for us to talk about because it is
just about over, and you are going to have to file your income tax this
year. This committee has always been curious about how gamblers
file returns so that they are accurate. Perhaps you can help this com-
mittee understand how you are going to file your return for 1950
accurately.
Mr. Moretti. I can only answer for myself how I make my own
living.
Mr, Halley, How do you keep a record of your wins and losses for
1950?
Mr. Moretti. I told you — with the program.
Mr, Halley, Well, where are the progi-ams ?
Mr, Moretti. I have some home.
Mr. Halley, For 1950?
Mr, Moretti, I think so, if I look them over, I've pieces of paper.
Mr, Halley, Going how far back?
Mr, IMoRETTi, Just the year of 1950, that's all,
Mr. Halley. And what kind of programs have you ?
Mr. Moretti. Racing programs.
Mr. Halley. For what tracks ?
Mr. Moretti. Aqueduct, Belmont, Jersey,
Mr, Halley, Any others ?
Mr. Moretti. That's all I went to this year.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever bet on the Florida tracks ?
Mr. Moretti. On the where ?
Mr. Halley. The Florida tracks.
Mr. Moretti. Wlien I go to Florida ; yes.
Mr. Halley. When were you last in Florida ?
Mr. Moretti. Last year.
Mr. Halley. For how long were you there?
Mr. MoRE^m. I think a couple of w-eeks.
Mr. Halley. And at what hotel did you stay ?
68958— 51— pt. 7 24
,'362 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. Last year? Let's see. Last year I was at the new
hotel, I think it's — had my daughter and wife there. She got sick
in college, and I took her for a 2 weeks' vacation in Florida. I only
stood there about 11 days, I think. That new hotel there. It's got
a kind of peculiar name.
Mr. Halley. One of the big new ones ?
Mr. MoEETTi. Next to the — what's that ? — Sherry Frontenac ? Next
to the Sherry Frontenac.
Mr. Halley. Sans Souci?
Mr. JMoRETTi. No.
Mr. Halley. Saxony?
Mr. Moretti. At the Pemi House. It cost me, I think, $75 a day.
Mr. Halley. $75 a day, and how long were you there ?
Mr. Moretti. About 11 days.
Mr. Halley. 10 days ?
Mr. Moretti. About 11 days, something like that.
Mr. Halley. Did you do any other traveling this year?
Mr. Moretti. Any what?
Mr. Halley. Any other traveling this year?
Mr. Moretti. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you own your own home?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How much did it cost you ?
Mr. Moretti. Which, my present home ?
Mr. Halley. Your present home.
Mr. Moretti. $45,000.
Mr. Halley. When did you buy it?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir ; I had it built.
Mr. Halley. How long ago?
Mr. Moretti. In 1947.
Mr. Halley. And do you have an automobile ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. What kind is that?
Mr. Moretti. Cadillac.
Mr. Halley. What year?
Mr. Moretti. '48. 1 have a Lincoln '49.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any other automobile ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Does your wife or your family?
Mr. Moretti. My daughter has. I gave her a Cadillac for a present
on graduation of her college.
Mr. Halley. Two Cadillacs and a Lincoln in your family ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
]Mr. Halley. And how many children have you ?
Mr. Moretti. Three.
JSIr. Halley. Three. Do any of the others go to college?
Mr. Moretti. They all went to college.
Mr. Halley. They all went to college?
Mr. MoRETiT. Yes. Two married, and one single.
Mr. Halley. And have you been able to do all of that on the income
that you report each year?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And you have also built up this linen business ; is that
right.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 363
Mr. MoRETTi. Right.
Mr. Halley. What is your net worth today, Mr. Moretti?
Mr. ]\IoRETTi. I can't say.
Mr. Halley. You have this linen business. Do you have any cash,
bank account?
Mr. MoRETTi. I have no bank account.
Mr. Halley. You do not have any bank at all ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Does your wife, or your children ?
Mr. JNIoretti. My wife has a bank account and a checking account.
Mr. Halley. Are they substantial accounts?
Mr. Moretti. I pay my taxes on my wife's checking account.
Mr. Halley. In what bank is your wife's account?
Mr. Moretti. Woodridge National Bank.
Mr. Halley. Are both accounts in that bank ?
Mr. Moretti. Right. I have one checking account in the Asbury-
Ocean Grove Bank in Asbury Park.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a home there, too ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes ; in Deal, N. J.
Mr. Halley. That is a second home you have ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir ; I have two homes.
Mr. Halley. Wlien did you acquire your Deal home?
Mr. Moretti. In 1940.
Mr. Halley. How much did that one cost you ?
Mr. Moretti. $16,250. The house was worth $400,000.
Mr. Halley. That house was worth $400,000?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Who did you buy that from ?
Mr. Moretti. I was offered $250,000 last year. I wouldn't sell it.
Mr. Halley. You refused to sell it for $250,000 ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Halley. Who did you buy it from ?
Mr. Moretti. I bought it from the Lincoln National Bank of
Newark.
Mr. Halley. On a foreclosure ?
Mr. jSIoretti. Yes, sir. Also taxes, I think. I don't know.
Mr. Halley. How many servants staff those two houses.
Mr. Moretti. Two.
Mr. Halley. Two. And how much money do you have in cash?
Mr. Moretti. About $30,000.
Mr. Halley. Do you own real estate, Mr. Moretti ?
Mr. INIoRETTi. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Where is your cash, by the way? Do you keep it in
a box ?
Mr. Moretti. In my home.
Mr. Halley. In a box ?
Mr. Moretti. No ; in my home.
Mr. Halley. In a safe ?
Mr. Moretti. I have no safe.
Mr. Halley. You just keep it around your house?
Mr. Moretti. That's all.
Mr. Halley. You do not own any real estate?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir.
364 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Haixey. Have you any interest in any construction business?
Mr. IMoRETn. No, sir. Let me tell you about the real estate. Now
don't get me wrong there. My son-in-law put up a store in Has-
brouck Heights, so I bought the building for them. I paid $oO,000.
for the building, so he coukbvt make it go, and he closed it up.
Mr. Halley. Wlien was that?
Mr. MoRETTi. Just recently, lost about $3,000, an ice-cream parlor
and confectionery store, so I sold the building to the same people I
bought it from. I sold it for $35,000 about a month and a half ago.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any other real estate ?
Mr. jSIgretti. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Does your family?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir. I have a lot in Florida.
Mr. Halley. When did you buy that ?
Mr. MoRETi'i. I think it was 1948, 1949, I am not sure. I paid
$18,000 for it, 300 by 250, bay front, on Biscayne Bay.
Mr. Halley. I am curious to know what kind of financial records
you have.
Mr. MoRETTL Just about $30,000 in cash ; that's all.
Mr. Halley. No; I am talking now about your records. The com-
mittee did subpena your records, did it not ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, but I have no records.
Mr. Halley. You must have some records.
Mr. Moretti. I told you a sheet of paper.
Mr. Halley. Let us see it.
Mr. Moretti. I haven't got it with me.
Mr. Halley. Wliat are you holding in your hand ?
Mr. MoREiTi. This is a record of my income tax.
Mr. Halley. Just the income tax ? " Income taxes paid ?
Mr. Sullivan. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Who prepared your inc-ome taxes?
Mr. Moretti. Abe Greenberg.
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Halley, these questions pertaining to income
taxes and pertaining to net worth, and this sort of thing might well
be the foundation of some sort of a claim or prosecution. I really do
not think there is any possibility of it, so probably I am arguing-
against myself in that respect, but I think I ought to note an objection
in the record with respect to any questioning about his particular
financial assets. I can't see how it is relevant under this resolution.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Sullivan, I do not want you to be misled, so I think
I should tell you that if the witness wants to claim his privilege at
this point, he must personally claim it. You cannot claim it for him.
Perhaps you want to consult him.
Mr. Moretti. I'll answer him.
]\Ir. Sullivan. He is very anxious to answer. Mr. Moretti is a man
who wants to answer questions.
Mr. Halley. I am a man who wants to ask tbiem.
Mr. Moretti. My answer should be on paper.
The Chairman. Wait a second. Mr. Sullivan, is there any conten-
tion that his income is under investigation ?
]Mr. Sullivan. I do not know of any. 1 heard yesterday — of course,
I do not know whether it is or not. I am not in touch with the internal
revenue on the matter, but I suppose it would be the duty of a man
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 365
in the Internal Revenue if you see a lot of publicity in newspapers
about somebody, to go and make an investigation, and I understand,
I heard counsel say yesterday that some sort of investigation is in
progress, and that he had been told by an internal revenue man that
such v^fls the case.
Mr, MoRETTi. I haven't been told yet.
Mr. Hallet. Let us ask a few more questions, and if he wants to
assert his own privileges, I am sure the chairman will rule on it.
You have no records whatsoever of your own financial transactions?
Mr. MoRETTi. No.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever had any ?
Mr. MoRETTi. The only record I can tell you, here, my laundry, my
•accountants take care of that.
Mr. Hallet. That is easy, because you get $210 a week.
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
Mr. Halley. And that does not require much in the way of re-
cording.
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right. It's by check.
Mr. Halley, Wliat I am concerned with is the following : In 194&
y^ou reported for commissions, brokerage, betting, and handicapping
$20,800. In 1948, $31,200, In '47, $25,000 even for yourself and
$15,000 for your wife.
Mr. MoRETTi, $25,000 ; you've got that wrong.
Mr. Halley. That is what I have got for '47, a total of $40,000,
•divided between you and your wife. Is that wrong ?
Mr. Morettl In '47?
Mr, Halley. '47.
Mr. JMoRETTT. No. It's $50,000 between me and my wife.
Mr. Halley. Fifty thousand. How does it break up as you have it ?
Mr. MoRETTi. She happened to be at the track with me, and she won
$15,000.
Mr. Halley. But I mean, she has $15,000 and you have what?
Thirty-five?
]\Ir. MoRETTi. I want to know, after you pay the Government, what
have you got left ?
Mr. Halley. In 1947. Are you sure you are talking only about the
betting? I am not talking about your salaries, commissions, from
United States Linen. For the betting, it seems to me your return
shows $25,000 for '47, and some additional income from your linen
companv, wliich would bring it up to around
Mr. Moretti. Yes, I filed for $35,000, my wife filed for $15,000.
Mr. Halley. That is right, but of your $35,000, $10,670
yir. Moretti. In '47, it was only $200 a week ; right ?
Mr. Halley. No. It shows the same as it does in '49.
Mr. Moretti. Yes, but the raise just come now, $240, this year, 20
percent raise on our wages.
Mr. Halley. It shows $6,500, Mr. Moretti, from United States
Linens, and $3,900 from United States Linen Laundry.
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. So we take that off the $35,000, then you have got
dividends and interest of $270, you take that off, and you get $25,000
even.
Mr. Moretti. Right.
366 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. From betting?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes ; that's right.
Mr. Halley. I am talking about the betting income now.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
]Mr. Halley. So I guess we are in agreement.
Mr. MoRETTi. I probably won that much, yes.
Mr. Halley. Then in 1946 from betting you show $28,600, and in
1945 for betting you show $38,000.
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
Mr. Halley. And in 1944, for betting you show $30,000 even.
Mr. MoEETTi. It is $33,830.
Mr. Halley. No. The $3,830 is from your Linen Supply and divi-
dends and interest.
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
Mr. Halley. But the betting is $30,000 even.
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And then in 1945, your wife also had $15,600.
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
Mr. Halley. The question is, what records do you have to show
this income from commissions, brokerage, betting ?
Mr. MoRETTi. These I don't have. After I pay my income tax, after
8 or 4 months I don't get no notice from the income tax, I might destroy
them, that's all.
Mr. Halley. But you have no paid income tax for 1950, and I am
askiuii you now what records you have.
Mr. MoRETTi. I have a piece of paper home what I won this year,
about $11,000, to my knowledge.
Mr. Halley. But that piece of paper was subpenaed by this com-
mittee. Your subpena asked you to bring your financial record, did
it not?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't know why I did it for. I can't answer that.
I haven't got it here. I only can tell you what I know mentally.
Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Halley, I want to point out that a man who goes
to the race track like IVfi'. Moretti does every day, it may be that they
do not keep bookkeeping records like you would in a business or in a
law office.
Mr. Halley. I want
The Chairman. That is what we are inquiring about, Mr. Sullivan.
Just what sort of records does he keep ?
Mr. Halley. A fellow who works for a living all day is sort of
tired at the end of the evening, and he has to keep a pretty good
record.
Mr. Sullivan. That is pretty hard work at a race track. They are
tired at the end of the day.
Mr. Halley. I am wondering if it is such hard work that they can't
keep a record equivalent to what any honest working man has to
keep.
Mr. Moretti. Are you trying to tell me I try to violate the prin-
ciples of this committee by not bringing the record ?
Mr. Halley. You certainly did not respond to your subpena..
Mr. Moretti. I have a pretty good memory.
Mr. Halley. I am sorry ?
Mr. Moretti. I have a pretty good memory.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 367
Mr. Halley, Exactly, then, what do your records show?
Mr. MoRETTi. About $11,000, to my knowledge.
Mr. Halley. How does it break down? What does it show, say,
for the month of November, last month ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't go by the months. I go by day.
Mr. Halley. Well, what does it show for November 1, 1950?
Mr. MoRETTi. I can't answer. From the first of the year till the
last time I was at the track, I'm ahead about $11,000.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a breakdown showing what you lost on
January 1, and what you won on January 2?
Mr. MoRETTi. This year I didn't lose anything.
Mr. Halley, You did not lose anything ? .
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; I won every time I went to the race track.
Mr. Halley. How many times were you at the race track this year?
Mr. MoRETTi. Probably 15, 20 times.
Mr. Halley. At what tracks ?
Mr. MoRETTi. The three tracks.
Mr. Halley. Aqueduct?
Mr. MoRETTi. Aqueduct, Belmont, and also down the shore, Jersey,
I was there pretty near every day,
Mr. Halley. Did you go down to the Atlantic City track?
Mr. MoRETTi. I was there twice, I think, this year.
Mr, Halley. And what other track along the shore?
Mr, MoRETTi. Monmouth Park.
Mr. Halley. You were down there almost every day?
Mr. MoRETTi, Yes, It's right near my home. They built a track
right near my home ; more convenient.
Mr. Halley, What is the track next to your home ?
Mr. MoRETTi. The Monmouth Park.
Mr. Halley. The Monmouth Park. That is near your Deal home?
Mr. MoRETTi. I had a deposit on that property during the depres-
sion. I bought $350,000 land for $11,000. I had a deposit and forgot
about it. If I had held it, I could have sold it for $100,000.
Mr. Halley. How much did you get from them ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I didn't buy it. I had a deposit, and I took it .back.
That also was bought from the city,
Mr, Halley, But you did not keep that ?
Mr. Moretti, I didn't go through with it ; no.
Mr. Halley. Why not ? Was somebody fighting you on it ? They
had a little political pressure, too ?
Mr. Moretti. Who could see futures? Could you predict a war?
Look at the home I bought down in Deal for $16,250. That's why
I've got a big reputation on paper. They see my beautiful home down
there. It's a millionaire's home.
Mr. Halley. It costs a lot of money to keep it up, does it not?
Mr, Moretti. It don't cost too much. I do pretty good at the race
track, pays it off.
Mr. Halley. I am wondering; for instance in 1949, your total
income was $31,000. You have got all of these automobiles, and two
homes, and you go to Florida and pay $75 a day. How do you do it?
Mr. Moretti. I do it pretty good.
Mr. Halley. How do you manage it? How does the arithmetic
work?
368 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. IMoRETTi, I can't tell you.
Mr. Halley. Of $31,000, you had to pay in taxes $6,000, so you
had $25,000 left.
Mr. MoRETTi. You have $25,000 left after you pay the Govern-
ment?
Mr. Halley. You have no Jersey State tax, do you?
Mr. Moretti. No.
Mr. Halley. You manage pretty well on your $25,000.
Mr. Moretti. I manage to live on about $200 a week.
Mr. Halley. What are these records? Let us get back to them.
They are really the thing I am trying to find out about.
Mr. Moretti. This record, I will call up the house, and let somebody
ily them down here.
Mr. Halley. How many pieces of paper is it?
Mr. Moretti. Just a piece of paper.
Mr. Halley. One piece of paper ?
Mr. Moretti. A piece of paper, and I used to keep those, what do
you call them, programs, from the track.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any programs right now ?
Mr. Moretti. No, I haven't.
Mr. Halley. You have no programs ?
Mr. Moretti. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any at home ?
Mr. Moretti. I may have some at home, yet.
Mr. Halley. You may have some ?
Mr. Moretti. I may.
Mr. Halley. Do you know how many you have at home ?
Mr. Moretti. I can't tell you.
Mr. Halley. But you have a piece of paper at home?
Mr. Moretti. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Is that one piece or more than one piece ?
Mr. ]\IoRETTi. No. As I get a sheet, I put down day by day. I
don't go to the track every day. Wlien I put it down
Mr. Halley. What kind of paper is it ? Is it a big piece of paper ?
Mr, Moretti. A piece of paper.
Mr. Halley. Is it as big as those yellow sheets you have right there ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, that's right.
Mr. Halley. Does it have lines on it?
Mr. Moretti. I don't remember if there is lines or not.
Mr. Halley. You don't remember if it has lines or not ?
Mr. Moretti. No.
Mr. Halley. Is it white paper or yellow paper?
Mr. Moretti. White paper.
Mr. Halley. White paper ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you write on it in pencil, or in ink ?
Mr. ISIoRETTT. Sometimes pencil and ink.
Mr. Halley. Sometimes pencil and sometimes ink ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Now, you have had that piece of paper all year?
Mr. Moretti. During the race track, yes.
Mr. Halley. In other words, you started writing on that piece of
paper back last spring, is that right?
Mr. Moretti. Probably, yes.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 369
Mr. H ALLEY. And you have been making notations right along^
down to now ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
Mr. Hallet. Have you filled up one side of the paper?
Mr. MoRETTi. It's only about maybe about 20 days, that's all.
]\Ir. Hallet. Only about 20 days ?
Mr. MoRETTi. About 20 days at the tracjk.
Mr. Hallet. You have not lost at all this year ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir; I haven't lost a penny this year.
Mr. Hallet. You think you have only won though about $12,000?
Mr. JNIoRETTi. That is right ; about $11,000.
Mr. Hallet. $11,000; and haw many different entries are on this
piece of paper ?
Mr. MoRETTi. How many what ?
Mr. Hallet. How many different entries on this piece of paper?
Mr. MoRETTi. I can't tell right now.
Mr. Hallet. Would you be willing to deliver it to a committee
investigator the minute you get back to your home ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hallet. When are you going home ?
Mr. MoRETTi. When you let me loose.
Mr. Hallet. Would you be willing to meet a committee investigator
in New York and take him out to your house, and hand him the paper
right away, showing your records for this year ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Maybe, if I can find it right away, I'll give it to him.
Mr. Hallet. Where is it? Where do you keep this record?
Mr. MoRETTi. I've got to look for it in one of the drawers. I've got
grandchildren, you know. They crash in all my drawers. A lot of
times I don't even find any shirts and ties.
Mr. Hallet. Sometimes you lose this record ?
Mr. ]\IoRETTi. I haven't lost any record.
Mr. Hallet. You are really sure you have such a record ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes; I'm positive I have.
Mr. Hallet. Then if we have somebody meet you when you get to
New York, you think you can turn it over?
Mr. Moretti. Is it that important ?
Mr. Hallet. Yes.
Mr. Moretti. If you say so, I will.
Mr. Hallet. I will ask you to arrange that with Mr. Murray as
soon as he finishes testifying.
Mr. Moretti. I never met Mr. Murray.
Mr. Hallet. Have you met INIr. jNIurray ? He is right there.
jNIr. Moretti. I have
The Chairman. We do not want to keep your record, but we will
make a photostat of it.
Senator Tobey?
Senator Tobet. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Moretti, the main thing is, Do you have a ledger
book where you keep any amounts that you lose as well as what you
win on these various betting days?
Mr. MoRRETTi. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
The Chairman. When you come home, you just put down the
amount you have won, or the net amount you have lost, on this piece
of paper ; is that it ?
370 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
The Chairman. And then sometimes you keep some of the programs
to show what races you have won on, and what races you have lost on,
what the odds were?
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
The Chairman. Sometimes you don't ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
The Chairman. Then when you go to your auditor to have him fix
up the tax returns you show him the piece of paper, or you just tell
him what the amounts are?
Mr. MoRETTi. Just tell him.
The Chairman. Just tell him ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes.
The Chairman. And you keep the record yourself ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
The Chairman. I did not understand when you bought this house
that you have been oifered $250,000 for, for sixteen- thousand-and-
some-odd dollars. Did you handle that yourself, or did someone
handle it for you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. The agent.
The Chairman. What agent ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Let's see, now ; he's in Long Branch, Meyer Bros.
The Chairman. Meyer Bros. ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Meyer Bros. ; yes.
The Chairman. Did you have to get in touch with anybody in order
to make any sort of deal to buy this house at that price ?
Mr. MoRETTi. When I seen the house it was astonishing. He told
me it was $15,000 first, so I gave him $1,000 cash deposit right away.
I thought he was kidding me. And about 3 days after he called me,
and said, 'T have to see you. There is some of the bank officials in the
Lincoln National Bank.'" I said, "What happened?'' "Oh, nothing,"
he said, "just we want to see you." So I was living in Brigiiton Ave-
nue at that time, in a rented home, so he come with two officials from
the bank.
So I gave them lunch, and during their waiting for lunch they said,
"Mr. Moretti, we're sorry to come here because the agent made a mis-
take with quoting the price." I says, "Here's where I lose something
that I've been looking for." I said, "What is the difference?" "The
difference," he said, "he quoted $15,000 instead of $16,250." I said,
"Forget about it. Make it $16,250."
The Chairman. When was this, Mr. Moretti ? How long ago has
this been?
Mr. Moretti. 1940.
The Chairman. And when did you get offered $250,000?
Mr. Moretti. For the same house.
The Chairman. I mean, what year ?
Mr. Moretti. 1947 and 1948.
The Chairman. The bank had a mortgage on the house, and had to
foreclose it?
Mr. Moretti. You mean, how I have it now ? It's all paid.
The Chairman. Is that the day you got it ?
Mr. MoiiETTi. I got it, yes, from the bank.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 371
The Chairman. The bank apparently had a mortgage, and fore-
closed the mortgage ?
Mr. MoRETTi. I had a mortgage of $10,000. I paid $8,000, and the
rest on mortgage.
The Chairman. Did your attorney handle the matter for you ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No ; the agent did.
The Chairman. You said this building — here is your card and pic-
ture of the building. Let this be filed as an exhibit.
(The document referred to was marked as exhibit No. 9, and is on
file with the committee.)
Mr. MoRE-n^i. Here's my building down the shore, if you want to
look at it. That's why they say I'm a millionaire. I may sell it
now.
' The Chairman. I did not understand.
Mr. MoRETTi. That's my building down there.
Mr. Sullivan. He has a picture of his home. It is a rather indis-
tinct picture.
The Chairman. I would like to see it myself.
Mr. MoRETTi. Give it to him. Let him look at it. Maybe wants to
come down for dinner sometime.
The Chairman. I imagine you would have a good meal.
This picture has at the top of it, "The Moretti estate." That is the
one you paid $16,000 for. It is a beautiful home.
Mr. Moretti. Six acres of land there, too. I have a lake there.
The Chairman. That will be filed also as an exhibit.
Mr. Sullivan. I will take the picture off. Senator.
The Chairman. You do not mind us having the picture, do you ?
Mr. Moretti. Yes, you can take the picture. Just give me my
records.
Mr. Sullivan. He has got his notations of his income tax on the
back of it.
Mr. Moretti, Take the picture right off. That is sort of a postal
card.
The Chairman. All right.
Now, Mr. Sullivan, the list on that letterhead, where you have the
directors of the various corporations and officers
Mr. Sullivan. Do you want that. Senator ?
The Chairman. Can that be filed ?
Mr. Moretti. No; I have no objection whatsoever.
Mr. Sullivan. He has got some notations here. These, I suppose
are just something to refresh his recollection.
Mr. Moretti. That's all my recollection. This don't mean any-
thing.
The Chairman. Just let him mark the notations off.
Mr. Moretti. I can give it to him. I'll take this here, and they
can have the rest.
(The document referred to was marked as exhibit No. 10, and is on
file with the committee.)
The Chairman. Now, there is one other matter I did not under-
stand. That lias been filed as exhibit No. 10.
Mr. Moretti, about this Noxall Linen Supply Co., as I understand
At they made a complaint in 1939, and there w^as an investigation?
Mr. Moretti. Yes.
372 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. Is that correct ?
Mr, ISIoRETTi. The president of that firm, he was the president of the
association, the Consolidated Laundries. They're all indicted. Sixty-
one of them were indicted here in Washington.
The Chairman. That was in 1939. Then you said while the mat-
ter was pending that he was killed ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, no. I don't know if it was in 1939,'what day they
got indicted. I don't know. They got indicted maybe in 1938. They
gave me that before the grand jury in New York, the Federal grand
jury-
Tlie Chairman. What was this president's name ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Gee, I don't know. I don't remember what's his
name.
The Chairman. You say in 1945 he was riding a horse and was
killed?
Mr. MoRETTi. I don't say 1945. I don't remember the year he rode a
horse, but he died before 1945, or they wouldn't have became my
partners.
The Chairman. Anyway, sometime before 1945 he was riding a
horse and got killed?
Mr. MoRETTi. He died. He fell off a horse, and the horse kicked
him in the head.
The Chairman. That is when you then merged, took over this com-
pany that merged with your company ; is that correct ?
Mr. MoRETTi. That's right.
The Chairman. Does the U. S. Linen Supply Co. have an operation
where you have these coin boxes in apartments where you can put a
quarter in and get some laundry worked on ? Is that your operation?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
The Chairman. You operate a regular laundry ?
Mr. MoRETTT. Kegular laundry, yes, sir.
The Chairman. Get the laundry, bring it in to your place ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Kegular laundry.
The Chairman. You do not have any coin machines ?
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
The Chairman. Don't you have some contract with some of the
large apartment companies out there ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Large contracts of what?
The Chairman. With some of the apartments to do their laundry ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Hospitals and apartment houses. Most of my busi-
ness is just restaurants and hotels and hospitals.
The Chairman. Is most of it in New Jersey ?
Mr. MoRETTi. Yes, sir; northern New Jersey. I have got a few in
New York.
The Chairman. Do you have an interest, or some connection with
any labor union activity ?
Mr. MoRETTi. What?
The Chairman. Any labor union activity?
Mr. MoRETTi. No. sir; never did.
The Chairman. In connection with building buildings, or a trade
association?
]\Ir. ]\IoRETTi. No, sir.
The Chairman. Never did ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 373
Mr. MoRETTi. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever handle any fight promotions?
Mr. MoRETTi. Figlit promotions^ I once backed Jack Kearns.
The Chairman. Jack who^
Mr. MoRETTi. Jack Kearns, Jack Dempsey's manager. I backed
him up, matched Pat Comiskey.
The Chairman. What do you mean, you backed him up ?
jVIi-. Moretti. I backed him up.
Tlie Chairman. You had a piece of him ?
Mr. Moretti. He liad no money. He was broke, a broken-down bum,
and I backed him up. From a millionaire, to a bum.
The Chairman. You mean you financed him ?
Mr. Moretti. I financed it ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Got him trained up?
Mr. Moretti. I had no interest at all. I just put up $30,000 for
him to go through with the match.
The Chairman. What did you get back?
Mr. Moretti. My $30,000 ; that's all I wanted, and I borrowed it.
The Chairman. You did not get any profit out of it ?
Mr. Moretti. No, sir. There was about $7,800 profit, and they
split it between themselves.
The Chairman. About how much?
Mr. Moretti. About $7,800 profit, I think they made, and they split
it between themselves.
The Chairman. Seventy-eight thousand profit?
Mr. Moretti. Seventy-eight hundred. They had a house of about
78,000.
The Chairman. Did you have anything you wanted to add to what
you have told the committee?
Mr. Moretti. I said all I could.
Mr. Sullivan. Just to express his appreciation, that's all, for your
consideration.
The Chairman. Mr. Moretti, I think, has talked f orthrightly, and
has given the committee information which I do not think incrimi-
nates him. He has his records here, and he has been of considerable
value to the committee.
Senator Tobey. I think, Mr. Chairman, it is rather refreshing to
find a witness who has been as frank as this man has been.
The Chairman. That is all.
Mr. Moretti. Thank you very much. Don't forget my home in Deal
if you are down the shore. You are invited.
The Chairman. Do you have inside tips on these horses ?
Mr. Moretti. I am a pretty good handicapper myself.
The Cpiairman. Do you have an opportunity of talking with the
jockeys, the owners, before you bet on these horses?
Mr. Moretti. I don't.
The Chairman. You just look over the form?
Mr. Moretti. That's all, over the form. Of course, tips go around
the race track, like if you listen to everybody, you got to go broke,
so I have a great following. Follow me and see what I do.
Tlie Chairman. You use your own judgment. All right.
Mr. Sullivan. May we have that record I
Mr. ]\I()RETTi. You can have, the one with the house on it. Just
take the sheet.
374 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
The Chairman. We have another picture of your house.
Mr. Sullivan. You don't need it ?
Mr. Halley. No. I just want to get the answer to one question.
As you know, the telephone companies keep records of long-dis-
tance calls, Mr. Moretti, and we have a number of records, and this is
a question that slipped my mind.
It shows in September of 1947, you received some collect telephone
calls from somebody named Halley, and I just wanted to get the
record clear.
Mr. Moretti, He is a horse owner.
Mr. Halley. Who is he ?
Mr. Moretti. A horse owner. Everybody thought it was you.
Mr. Halley. I just wanted to make sure. It is not me, is it?
Mr. Moretti. No ; it's not you.
Mr. Halley. It is a horse owner ?
Mr. Moretti. A horse owner, yes.
Mr. Halley. He must have been at the track, then ?
Mr. AIoRETii. He has got about 10 or 15 horses.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 2 : 30
this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12:30 p. m., a recess was taken, to reconvene at
2 : 30 p. m., of the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
The chairman for a while this afternoon will be engaged with other
members of the Committee on Armed Services in marking up the civil-
defense bill. Senator Hunt has been designated as acting chairman,
and chairman of the subcommittee of one, with power to swear wit-
nesses and to take sworn testimony. Other members of the special
committee will join him in the proceedings later this afternoon.
Go ahead. Senator Hunt.
Senator Hunt. For the benefit of the press, I wish to make a brief
opening statement.
A subpena to testify before this committee was served in San
Francisco this morning on Mr. Martin H. Hartman of San Francisco
and Las Vegas. Mr. Hartman is one of the witnesses the committee
has been very anxious to place under subpena. His name is on the
list of those upon whom warrants of arrest were asked by the Senate
committee some time ago. We expect to have him before us at some
later day to testify about what he knows of the Mountain City Con-
solidated Copper Co. and the sale of its stock. Service of the commit-
tee's subpena on Mr. Hartman reduces the list of missing witnesses
now to seven. Wliile the resolution sponsored by the committee is
under consideration by the Senate Judicially Committee the search for
these seven wanted witnesses will continue with intensity.
Mr. James Lynch, will you take the witness chair, please.
Mr. Lynch, do you swear the testimony you are about to give this
committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Senator Hunt. You may be seated.
All riglit, Mr. Halley.
ORGANIZED CRIAIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 375
TESTIMONY OF JAMES LYNCH, PALISADES PARK, N. J., ACCOM-
PANIED BY JOHN E. SELSER, ATTORNEY, HACKENSACK, N. J.
Mr. Halley. What is your full name, Mr. Lynch ?
Mr. Lynch. James Lynch.
Mr. Halley. iVnd what is your address ?
Mr. Lynch. 85-B Henry Avenue, Palisades Park.
Mr. Halley. Do you have a business address ?
Mr. Lynch. No business address.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any business ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
]\Ir. Halley. This committee made very intensive efforts to serve
a subpena on you during the month of October 1050. Would you mind
telling me where you were from October 1 to October 15, 1950 ?
Mr. Lynch. October 1 ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. I was at my home in October.
Mr. Halley. Are you married to Virginia Lynch ?
Mr. Lynch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. She appeared as a witness before this committee on
October 12 and said that about a week prior to that time you had left
home.
Mr. Lynch. That is right ; I did.
]\Ir. Halley. About October 5 ?
Mr. Lynch. Around that time, somewhere around that time.
]Mr. Halley. And where did you go ?
Mr. Lynch. I went to my mother's house.
Mr. Halley. Where is that ?
Mr. Lynch. Jersey City.
]\Ir. Halley. Why did you do that ?
Mr. Lynch. I was in a run-down condition. I was very sick at the
time and I didn't want to disturb my Mrs., and let her worry about me.
INIr. Halley. You didn't even tell her where you were ?
]Mr. Lynch. That is right ; I didn't want her to know where I was.
Mr. Halley. You did not want her to know where you were ?
Mr. Lynch. I just didn't want her to worry about me.
Mr. Halley. Did you not know that this committee was trying
to serve a subpena upon you ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you tell her that you were going to take a trip ?
Mr. Lynch. I told her I was going away. I didn't want her to
know where I was at.
Mr. Halley. And you went away as far as Jersey City ?
Mr. Lynch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And you stayed away until this committee's hearings
were over, is that right ?
Mr. Lynch. No, I was back. I come back when I found out my
wife had got subpenaed.
Mr. Halley, Wlien was that?
Mr. Lynch. I read it in the papers.
Mr. Halley. When was that?
Mr. Lynch. Well, while I was at my mother's house, I picked the
paper up and read it.
^76 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Hallet, Did you make any efforts to come in before the com-
mittee and say you were now present ?
Mr, Lynch. Not at that time, no, but I never run away from no
subpena or anything else.
Mr. Halley. You made no effort to spare your wife the problem
of appearing before this committee ?
Mr. Lynch. I didn't know she was subpenaed.
Mr. Halley. And the embarrassment attendant thereto.
Mr. Lynch. I said I did not know she had it.
Mr. Halley. It was in the newspapers.
Mr. Lynch. A day or so before. I think the same day I read the
paper was when she had to be in New York.
Mr. Halley. And you did not make any effort to come and appear
yourself ?
Mr. Lynch. I didn't know they were looking for me.
Mr. Halley. It said so in all the newspapers, Mr. Lynch. Didn't
you see that in the newspapers ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir. I would never, duck nobody. I have never
been away from any place.
Mr. Halley. You ducked the service of this committee's subpena,
did you not?
Mr. Lynch. I am here now, Your Honor.
Mr. Halley. My name is Halley. There is no reason to call me
«Your Honor."
Mr. Lynch. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Were you under a doctor's care while at your mother's
house ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir ; I was not.
Mr. ILvLLEY. Did you stay there or go out to attend to business?
Mr. Lynch. I didnt' have a.nj business at that time. I just went
there to relax and rest myself. I was in a run-down condition. I
have lost 30 pounds since October. I still feel the effects of it.
Mr. Halley. But you had no doctor to take care of you ?
Mr. Lynch. Not at that time ; no.
Mr. Halley. Now, Mr. Lynch, you say you have no business ?
Mr. Lynch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. When did you last have a business ?
Mr. Lynch. On advice of my counsel I refuse to answer.
Mr. H ALLEA\ Have you ever had a legitimate business ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have not ?
Mr. Lynch. No.
Mr. Halley. At no time?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. How old are you, Mr. Lynch?
Mr. Lynch. Forty-six.
Mr. Hali.ey. Where were j^ou born ?
Mr. Lynch. Jersey City, N. J.
Mr. Halley. And you have lived in New Jersey ever since?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have never lived in any other State?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. And where did you go to school ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 377
IVIr. Lynch. Jersey City.
Mr. Halley. Through what grades in school did you attend ?
Mr. Lynch. Seventh grade.
Mr. Halley. And then what did you do ?
Mr. Lynch. Well, I went to work as an office boy.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever arrested ?
*Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. You were ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. On Avhat charges ?
Mr. Lynch. On a robbery charge.
Mr. Halley. When was that, do you remember?
Mr. Lynch. 1922.
Mr. Halley. And were you convicted ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you go to jail ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long did you serve ?
Mr. Lynch. Seven years and six months.
Mr. Halley. Seven years ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where did you serve that ?
Mr. Lynch. Trenton State Prison, New Jersey.
Mr. Halley. And you got out in 1929 ?
Mr. Lynch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Were you convicted of any crime after that ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you get a 6-month sentence in Trenton in 1937 ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You did not ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you arrested in 1933 in Trenton for aiding and
abetting a lottery 'i
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
]Mr. Halley. You say you were not arrested for that at all I
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you take the position that that one arrest in 1922
is the only arrest ?
Mr. Lynch. Outside of a disorderly person.
Mr. Halley. When were you arrested for being a disorderly person ?
Mr. Lynch. After I come out of prison.
Mr. Halley. How long after that?
Mr. Lynch. A couple of months.
Mr. Halley. What happened then ?
Mr. Lynch. Well, I was given 90 days for disorderlj' person's case.
Mr. Halley. Wliere was that ?
Mr. Lynch. In Hoboken, N. J.
Mr. Halley. Hoboken ?
Mr. Lynch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And were you ever arrested after that (
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Were you not arrested for being a disorderly person
in Trenton in May of 1937 and given 6 months ?
68958—51— pt. 7 115
378 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Hallei". If the record shows that, it would be a mistake?
Mr. Lynch. I guess it is.
Mr. Halley. I have an FBI record in front of me.
Mr. Lynch. That must be a mistake. I was never arrested.
Mr. Halley. You referred to two convictions. Have you ever been
convicted on any other occasion ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. That is the disorderly person conviction ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Now after you were convicted as a disorderly person
what business were you in ?
Mr. Lynch. On advice of my counsel I refuse to answer.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any legitimate business?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You never have had one?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Now, Mr. Lynch, when your wife testified before the
committee she testified that you were supporting her, and your family
lived reasonably comfortably, had reasonable amounts of money for
food and shelter, clothing, and such. Is it not a fact that you do
support your family ?
Mr. Lynch, That is right.
Mr. Halley. Then you do have some sort of income. Would that
be true ?
Mr. Lynch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Mr. LyncTi, do you know Anthony Guarini ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know a Max Stark?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Max Stark?
Mr. Lynch. I would say about a year or so.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever ask Max Stark to cash a check for you?
Mr. Lynch. I can't answer that question.
Mr. Selser. May I make a statement to the committee with regard
to this witness ?
I represent him in proceedings now pending in the States of New
Jersey and New York, charges having been made against him alleging
conspiracy with relation to certain alleged gambling activities in those
States and in other places. The matters are now pending. He is
presently under bail, having joined issue with the State, at the present
phase of the proceedings.
In addition to this, I have been informed that his income-tax returns
are now being investigated by the Internal Kevenue Department with
a view to inquiring into whether or not there has been a fraud in
returns made, so as to lay the foundation for complaints against him
under the Federal law for income-tax evasion. For this reason, I am
advising my client not to make answers to questions which in my
judgment he is privileged not to answer on the ground that to do so
miglit be to testify against himself. And I claim his privilege under
the fifth amendment to the Constitution of the United States and
like ]uc)visions under the Constitutions of the States of New York and
New Jei-sey.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 379
I have alreadj^ made a statement before the conmiittee that this being
an open session to which all persons are invited, his admissions would
be used, if admissions were made, would be used in proceedings against
him. I have said in my formal statement that if the committee will
set up a program by which this man may give them information within
the four corners of the resolution for tTie exclusive use of the com-
mittee, or of the Senate, witliin the four walls of the resolution under
which the committee is created, I should advise my clients very differ-
ently as to the need for answering such questions.
Now if the committee be sincerely interested in desiring informa-
tion for the use of the Senate and not to have the committee used as
an arm of the prosecuting officers of the various States and other law-
enforcement agencies, if they will do this sort of thing, then, of course,
we are very glad to cooperate with the Senate committee, and give
them all the information for its use only under such a program. If
questions are to be propounded which may be answered by counsel in
written form after consultation, I should be very glad to cooperate
with the committee and the Senate as a whole.
Now, on the basis of this reasoning I am advising my client not to
ansAver these questions.
Senator Hunt. The counsel for the committee will proceed. My
opinion as acting chairman, at least, is that any information we are
entitled to privately we are entitled to publicly.
You may proceed.
Mr. H ALLEY. Now the question was. Did you ever give Max Stark
a check to cash ?
Mr. Lyxch. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman requests the witness to answer
"Yes" or "No."
!Mr. Lynch. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer on the ground
that I don't want to incriminate myself.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs and orders the witness
to answer "Yes" or "No."
Mr. Selser. I have advised him, sir, not to answer at all.
Senator Hunt. Allow the witness to make his own statement,
please, if you will, counsel.
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
]Mr. Halley. At that point, Mr. Chairman, counsel desires to offer
in evidence a check drawn on the Corn Exchange Bank Trust Co. in
the amount of $350, dated February 24, 1948. I request, because this
is an open record, that when this check goes into the record the com-
mittee staff be instructed to clip out the name of the signer of the
check, the drawer of the check, whose name the committee has been
requested to keep confidential until such a time as the committee deems
it proper to make it available publicly.
The endorsement on the check, Mr. Chairman, is James Lynch, and
under his endorsement is "Max Stark special," and it shows that it
Mas deposited in the Mercantile Bank of New York. I offer this in
evidence.
Senator Hunt. It will be received into the records, and under what
exhibit number ?
Mr. Halley. Exhibit No. 11.
Mr. Selser. May I be heard in behalf of my client in this regard,
sir ?
380 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Senator Hunt. You may.
Mr. Selser. I consider that this is a viohition of my client's consti-
tutional right and is an attempt to do that for the prosecuting officials
of the State which they might not have done for themselves, and I
must respectfully ask that this be not made a part of the public record.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman will rule it shall now be re-
ceived as exhibit ^o. 11 for the record.
(The document referred to was marked as exhibit No. 11, and is on
Hie with the connnittee.)
JNIr. Halley. Mr. Xellis, will you take the photostatic copy of the
reverse side of this separate endorsement and show it to Mr. Lynch and
ask him if the signature "James Lynch" which appears thereon is
his signatured
Mr. Nellis (showing document to witness). Is this your signature?
Mr. Lynch. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman of the committee directs the
witness to answer the question ''Yes" or "No".
Mr. Lynch. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as exhibit 2 for
this witness a check in the amount of $500 dated September 26, 1947,
drawn on the Corn Exchange Bank Trust Co., endorsed "James
Lynch," second endorsement "Max Stark special," and deposited in
the Mercantile Bank of New York. I would like to state in both cases
what is being offered is a photostatic copy rather than the original.
That applies to exhibit 1 as well as this one.
Senator Hunt. The exhibit will be received and entered in the
lecord as exhibit No. 12.
Mr. Halley. Thank you.
(The document referred to was marked as exhibit No. 12, and is on
file with the committee. )
Mr. Halley. May the record show that the testimony before the
committee at a closed session was that a total of $5,000,000 in such
checks was deposited in the Mercantile Bank of New York during
5 months beginning in 1947 and ending in 1948.
Mr. Lvnch, were you ever connected directly or indirectly with
the G&K Trading Co.?
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incriminate
myself.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question "Yes" or "No".
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
jNIr. Halley. Were vou ever connected directly or indirect Iv with
the L & L Co. of Sarotoga, N. Y. ?
Mr. Lynch. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever connected with the L & C Amuse-
ment Co.?
Mr. Lynch. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the questions just asked "Yes" or "No".
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer on the ground that I may incrimi-
nate myself.
Mv. Halley. Were you ever in Saratoga, N. Y, ?
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 381
Senator Hunt. The acting cliairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
Mr. Lyxch. Yes ; I was in Saratoga.
Mr. Halley. Were von ever in the Arrowhead Inn in Saratoga,
X.Y.?
Mr. Lyxch. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Were von in the Arrowhead Inn (hiring the years of
1947 and 1948?
Mr. Lyxch. On advice of my counsel I refuse to answer. I may
incriminate myself.
Senator Huxt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Halley. Do you know whether or not there was operated in the
Arrowhead Inn at. Saratoga, N. Y., in the years 1947 and 1948 a gam-
bling game ?
Mr. Lyxch. I refuse to answer.
Senator Huxt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
Mr. Lyxch. On the grounds of self-incrimination I refuse to
answer.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact, Islv. Lvnch, that starting in 1945 with
the G & R Trading Co. and through 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, and 1950
you were part oMuer and an active operator of gambling games in the
State of New Jersey and in Saratoga, N. Y. ?
Mr. Lyxch. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer.
Senator Huxt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
Mr. Lyxch. I refuse to answer on the grounds of incriminating mv-
self.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that you w^ere the office manager for
L&C Amusement Co. ?
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
Senator Huxt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
Mr. Lyxch. I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may incrim-
inate myself.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that during the years 1946 to 1948 you
received from the L & C Amusement Co. $32,128 in profits?
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
Senator Huxt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question "Yes'- or "No."
Mr. Lyx'ch. I refuse on the grounds I may incriminate myself.
]\Ir. Halley. Do you know Ales Goldfine ?
]\Ir. Lyxch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Lyxch. Four or five years, I guess.
Mr. Halley. When did you last see him?
Mr. Lyxch. Just about a year ago.
Mr. Halley. Where was that?
Mr. Lyxch. New York.
Mr. Halley. Whereabouts^
Mr. Lyx'ch. I think I met liim on Seventli Avenue.
382 ORGANIZED CRUVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Just accidentally?
Mr. IjYnch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him in Xew Jersey?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where?
Mr. Lynch. Well, I refuse to answer that on the ground that I may
incriminate myself.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Halley. Is it not a fact that he was the straw boss for the
gambling games operated by you and your associates in New Jersey ?
i\Ir. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may incrimi-
nate myself.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Emanuel Schafer?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. When did you last see him ?
Mr. Lynch. I don't know. Around the same time, I imagine.
Mr. Halley. Whereabouts?
Mr. Lynch. I think it was in Jersey.
Mr. Halley. Jersey?
]Mr. Lynch. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Where?
Mr. Lynch. I just don't recall. I don't recall.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see him in a gambling house?
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
]Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may incrimi-
nate myself.
Mr. Halley. Do you know what business Emanuel Schafer was in?
Mv. Lynch. I refuse to answer.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question yes or no.
INIr. Lynch. I lefuse to answer on the grounds that I may incrimi-
nate myself.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mike Lascari ?
Mr. Lynch. I don't think I do.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Andrew Bruno ?
Mr. Lynch. I know of a Bruno.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him ?
Mr. Lynch. I know a Bruno.
Mr. Halley. A Bruno who runs a hotel?
Mr. Lynch. What?
Mr. Halley. Who runs a restaurant ?
Mr. Lynch. Bruno's restaurant?
Mv. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. In New York?
Mv. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Lyncil Yes: I know him.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 383
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in a restaurant he had in New Jersey ?
Mr. Lynch. New Jersey ?
Mr. Halley. In New Jersey.
Mr. Lynch. In New Jersey '{
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Lynch. Whereabouts in New Jersey ?
Mr. Halley. Lodi.
]\Ir. Lynch. I refuse to answer that question.
Senator Hunt. You have refused to answer perhaps 15 or 20 ques-
tions so far, Mr. Witness. If you are taking a chance of incriminat-
ing yourself to the extent of 15 or 20 times, you are in a rather bad
way, are you not ?
The chair directs that the witness answer the question yes or no.
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer on the grounds I may incriminate
myself.
Mr. Halley. Do you know John W. Barker ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. I offer in evidence withholding statement, 1947, John
W. Barker, for Federal income tax withheld, and the employer stated
in this income tax withholding statement is James Lynch, Gerald
Catena, Joseph Doto. and Salvatore Moretti, L & C Amusement Co.,
care of Charles Handler, 790 Broad Street, Newark, N. J., as exhibit
No. 13.
Senator Hunt. The exihibit will be received.
(The document referred to was marked as exhibit No. 13, and is on
file with the committee. )
Mr. Halley. And I offer as exhibit No. 14 a similar withholding
statement to John W. Barker for Federal income tax withheld by
L & L Co., R. F. D. No. 1, Saratoga Springs, N. Y.
Senator Hunt. The exhibit will be received.
(The document referred to was marked as exhibit No. 14, and is on
file with the committee.)
Mr. Halley. Do you know Mr. Milton Kessler ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. I offer in evidence withholding receipt for the year
1945 of Milton Kessler for Federal income tax withheld. The
employer is listed as Anthony Guarini, G & R Trading Co., 109 Roose-
velt Avenue, Hasbrouck Heights, N. J.
Senator Hunt. The exhibit will be received.
(The document referred to was marked as exhibit No. 15, and is on
file with the conunittee. )
Mr. Halley. I offer in evidence withholding statement for the year
1948 of Milton Kessler for Federal income tax withheld. The em-
ployers are listed as J. Lynch. G. Catena, J. Doto, S. Moretti, doing
business as L. & C. Amusement Co.
Senator Hunt. The exhibit will be received.
(The document referred to was marked as exhibit No. 16, and is on
file with the conunittee.)
Mr. Halley. The amount of the tax here is $13G.50 on a salary of
$1,300.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer in evidence as the next exhibit
withholding statement for the year 1948 of M'ilton Kessler for Fed-
eral income tax in the amount of $115.50 on a total wage of $1,500,
384 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
and the employer is listed as J. Lynch, J. Doto, A. Guarini, et al., doing
business as Pal Trading Co.
Senator Hunt. The exhibit will be received.
(The document referred to was marked as exliibit Xo. 17, and is on
file Avith the committee.)
Mr. Halley. Do you know Meyer Lansky ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes.^
Mr. Halley. How long have you knoAV him?
Mr. Lynch. About G or 7 years, I imagine.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been in business with him ?
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may in-
criminate myself.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the Avitness to answer
the question yes or no.
Mr. Lynch. I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may incrimi-
nate myself.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Costello?
Mr. Lynch. Slightly.
Mr. Halley. You don't know him well ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. What clo vou mean when vou sav you know him
slightly?
Mr. Lynch. Well, I have never been around the fellow. I never saw
him. I see him now and then; as far as knowing him, I don't know
anything about him.
Mr. Halley. Did 3^ou ever eat at Toots' Restaurant ?
Mr. Lynch. Once in a while.
Mr. Halley. Did you eA'er see him there ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever see Willie Moretti there ?
Mr. Ly'-nch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Arosa, Joe Bailey ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And did you know Charles Luciano ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Longy Zwillman ?
Mr. Lynch. I know of him, but I don't know him.
Mr. Halley. You never met him ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Little Augie ?
Mr. Lynch. I met Little Augie in Florida one time.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever stay at the Wotford Hotel in Florida ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir; that is where I met him.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Abe Allenberg ?
Mr. Lynch. I don't think I do.
INIr. Halley. He ran the place.
Mr. Ly^nch. I don't think I do. I checked into the Wofford, and
I didn't know who was their owners, or anybody else.
Mr. Halley. What year did you stay there ?"^
Mr. Lynch. I think it was in the year — about 5 years ago, I imagine,
4 or 5 years ago.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Johnny King ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Erickson?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COAIMERCE 385
Mr. Lynch. I know of him.
Mr. Halley. Do you know him ?
Mr. Lynch. Xever met him.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Bugsy Siegel ?
Mr. Lynch. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Moretti ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And you know Arthur Longano ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. And I think you testified you know Anthony Guarini ^
Mr. Lynch. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Gerry Catena ?
Mr. Lynch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. I have no other questions, Mr. Chairman.
Before the witness is excused, Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer
in evidence a withholding statement of Milton Kessler, who has
previously been identified, from the Nevada Project Corp., doing
business as the Flamingo, Las Vegas, Nev., for total wages of $6,72Cr,
Federal tax withheld $1,058.40. This is for the year 1947.
Senator Hunt. The exhibit will be received.
(The docuriient referred to was marked as exhibit No. 18, and is on
file with the connnittee.)
Senator Hunt. The witness is excused.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you.
Senator Hunt, Mr. Arthur Longano, will you please take the wit-
ness chair.
Do you swear the testimony you are about to give this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ?
Mr. Longano. I do.
]Mr. Selser. jNIr. Chairman, may the record show that I represent
also this witness in the proceedings in New York and New Jersey,
and with regard to the current investigation I am informed is being
conducted into his income-tax returns. And may the grounds which
I have heretofore expressed with regard to the other witnesses for
whom I have appeared be -considered as having been repeated without
the need for again repeating them verbatim?
Senator Hunt. The record will show 3'our statement. The chair-
man understands it.
Mr. Selser. Thank you, sir.
Senator Hunt. The witness may be seated.
TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR LONGANO, ENGLEWOOD, N. J., ACCOM-
PANIED BY JOHN E. SELSER, ATTORNEY, HACKENSACK, N. J.
Mr. Halley. Wliat is your full name, Mr. Longano?
Mr. Longano. Arthur Longano?
Mr. Halley. And where do you live ?
Mr. Longano. 285 Windsor Road, Englewood, N. J.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any business ?
Mr. Longano. No, I haven't.
Mr. Halley. When were you born ?
Mr. Longano. February 2, 1904.
Mr. Halley. And where were you born ?
]Mr. Longano. West New York. N. J.
386 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Haixey. Have you lived in New Jersey ever since?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes, sir, I have.
Mr. Halley. And did you go to school ?
Mr, Longano. I did.
]\Ir. Halley. How far did you go through school ?
Mr. LoNGANO. Sixth grade.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been arrested?
Mr. LoNGANO. I have a record.
Mr. Halley. Will you tell the committee whether you have ever
been convicted ?
Mr. Longano. I have.
Mr. Halley. And of what offenses have you been convicted ?
Mr. Longano. Well, I have a very bad memory, and I think the
Senator has my record there. I think it would be better if he read it
out to me and I will answer it.
Mr. Halley. You were first convicted at the age of 18; were you
not ?
Mr. Longano. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And that was as a disorderly person?
Mr. Longano. Disorderly person?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Longano. I think they got it mixed up.
Mr, Halley, What do you think it was? Maybe your memory is
better than the record.
Mr. Longano. I don't remember.
Mr. Halley. The record is sometimes wrong, so give us your best
recollection,
Mr, Longano. I think my first conviction was when I was 17 years,
so I don't see how you got 18 there for disorderly person.
Mr. Halley. For what ?
Mr. Longano. You said for disorderly person.
Mr. HL\LLEY, And what was it for?
Mr. Longano, Well, you have it there.
Mr. Halley. Please tell me. I am not playing games.
Mr. Longano. Highway robbery.
Mr. Halley, That is the answer. Is that the offense for which
you were given 10 to 15 years; is that right?
Mr. Longano. That is right.
Mr. Halley. The record I have shows an arrest before that, with
a fine for being a disorderly person. Is it possible you have just
forgotten that ? Just a fine, you did not go to jail.
Mr. Longano. I must have forgotten it.
Mr. Halley. Then were you given 10 to 15 years the next year for
highway robbery; is that right?
Mr. Longano. That is right,
Mr. Halley, How long did you serve?
Mr. Longano. I served 6 years, I think; 6 or 7 years; I am not
sure.
Mr. Halley. And have you been convicted of any other offenses
since then?
Mr. Longano. I have.
Mr. Halley. Were you convicted of carrying concealed weapons?
Mr. Longano. Yes,
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 387
Mr. Halley. And have you been convicted of liquor offenses?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And I believe you have been arrested twice in New
Yoi'k on charges of carrying a gun ; is that right?
Mr. Li ).XGAN0. In New York ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. LoNGANO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Well, where was it?
Mr. Longano. It might have been Jersey, but never New York.
Mr. Halley. Did you on tAvo occasions receive suspended sentences
for carrying a gun?
Mr. LoxGANO. Never.
Mr. Halley. Never?
Mr. LoNGANt). Never received a suspended sentence.
Mr. Halley. Never i-eceived a suspended sentence?
Mr. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Well, did you go to jail for carrying a gun?
Mr. LoNGANO. I did.
Mr. Halley. When and where was that ?
Mr. LoNGANO. The Senator will save time if he gives me dates, and
I will admit to them. I am not going to deny my record.
Mr. Halley. Please just believe that I have a reason for asking the
questions the way I am doing it. Do the best you can, and nobody
is trying to build a perjury rap against you on your record. Give us
the approximate date, if you can.
Mr. LoxGAKO. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Was it about 1941?
Mr. LoNGANO. Pardon me. I can't hear you.
Mr. Halley. Was it around 1941 ?
Mr. LoNGANO. It could have been.
Mr. Halley. I mean 1931. I am sorry.
Mr. LoNGANO. Thirty-one. It could have been around that time.
Mr. Halley. And another time in 1934?
Mr. Longano. It could have been. Senator.
Senator Hunt. Let me suggest to the witness, please don't be
evasive in vour answers. If you do know the answer, just simply
say, "Yes, it was 1934." or, "It wasn't 1934, it was 1935.*'
Mr. Selser. Senator, I don't think he is being evasive because he
asked me if I had any idea of the year. I am certain you are going
to find that this record of A. Longano is a different person, just as the
record of Lynch is a different person. I already investigated the
Lynch record and I know that is an entirely different Lynch.
Mr. Halley. We are in agreement that the highway robbery is j'our
own record ?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes.
, Mr. Selser. That is right. He was 17 when he was sent away for
15 years.
Seantor Tobey. Then, do I understand, Mr. Witness, that at 17
you were given this lo-year sentence, of which you served about 5
years, and it was after that that you were arrested on the charge of
carrying a gun ?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes.
Senator Tobey. And was the gun used in the old highway robbery?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes.
388 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COIVIIMERCE
Senator Tobey. And this is no personal feeling. I am just asking
to get the record clear. I am just asking for the record. Were you
given one sentence for carrying the gun?
Mr. LoNGANO. No ; I think it was all in one.
Senator Tobey. You were sentenced on the highway robberj^ to 10
to 15 years?
Mr. LoNGANO. That is right.
Senator Tobey. Subsequent!}^ you were arrested for carrying a gun ;
is that right ?
yir. LoNGANO. That is right.
Senator Tobey. What sentence was given there ?
Mr. LoNGAXo. I was given a year in the county jail.
Mr. Halley. That is right. The record shows in 1933 1 year for
, possession of firearms ; is that right, Hudson County jail ?
Mr. LoNGANO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. We will take it offense by offense and tie it down that
way.
in 1932 you were convicted for a prohibition violation, were vou
not?
Mr. LoNGANO. That is right.
JN'Ir. Halley. And you got a 4-month sentence?
Mr. LoNGANO. Suspended.
Mr. Halley. Suspended ?
Mr. LoNGANO. With a fine.
Mr. Halley. And you were also accused of violating your parole
at that time ; is that right ?
Mr. Lo?v'GAN0. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Were you also given a suspended sentence on that
charge, or did yon get 4 months for that?
]\rr. LoNGANO. I think that all come under the Hudson County jail
sentence. That all combined into one.
Mr. Halley. And for the whole thing you went to jail for 1 year?
Mr. LoNGAxo. That is right.
Mr. Halley. For having a revolver in vour possession; is that
right?
Mr. LoxGANo. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Xow, then, in 1934 you were convicted, were you not,
in New York ?
Mr. LoxGAXo. I was never convicted in New York.
Mr. Halley. Well, this may not be yours. I must say in fairness
the 1934 conviction conceivably could — however, it is an FBI finger-
print record. It is under the name of Albert Latelli. Did you ever
use that name?
Mr. LoxGAXo. I don't remember ever having used that name.
Mr. Halley. You never used that name ?
Mr. LoxGAxo. I don't think I have.
Senator Huxt. The witness knows whether he has ever used that
name or whether he has not used that name. Now. answer the ques-
tion, yes you have, or no you have not. Let's get this record straight.
]Mr. LoxGAXo. Will the Senator say what he said before that so I
will understand this? He said something before that about Latelli.
Mr. Haij>ey. The question is : Did vou ever use the name Albert
Latelli?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COISUVIERCE 389
Mr. LoxGAxo. Didn't yon connect that with something before that?
Mr. H ALLEY. Yes. I was asking yon if yon had ever been con-
victed in New York in 1934.
Mr. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. And then I pointed out to you that your FBI finger-
print record apparently shows such a conviction, however, under a
name of Albert Latelli.' I then asked you if you ever used the name
Albert Latelli.
Mr. Selser. May I ask you whether or not the record indicates that
the i-ecord is supported by fingerprint records ?
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. Selser. Usually returns indicate, and back in the thirties they
were not properly supported by records.
Mr. Halley. There have been mistakes in the records. There is
no question about that. We have not had a chance to check.
Mv. Selser. The man says he never has been convicted in New York.
Mr. Halley. If he says so, on due consideration I believe the com-
mittee will accept his statement. It is easy enough to check. I want
to get the facts.
Senator Hlint. Now the answer to the direct question : Were you
ever known by the name of Albert Latelli? Did you ever use that
name ?
Mr. LoNGAxo. Where was this name supposed to be used?
Senator Huxt. Did yon ever use it any place at any time? That
is the question.
Mr. LoxGANo. Well, I don't remember. I can't. Just my honest
answer is I don't remember.
Senator Tobey. Have you ever used anj^ aliases ?
Mr. LoNGAXO. I might have.
Senator Tobey. What were they that you used ?
Mr. LoxGAXo. I used the name of Devito.
Senator Tobey. As a last name ?
Mr. LoxGAXO. Or Laurie.
Senator Tobey. Is that the first name or second?
Mr. LoxGANO. Al.
Senator Tobey, Allen?
Mr. LoxGAxo. Al Devito.
Senator Tobey. And what is Laurie's first name ?
Mr. LoxGAxo. Al Laurie. They are the only names I ever remember.
Senator Tobey. Any other aliases ?
Mr. LoxGAXo. That is all.
JNIr. Halley. Haven't you ever been known to the New York police
as Albert Latelli?
•Mr. LoxGAxo. I don't think I have ever been in trouble in New York
or any other places.
Mr. Halley. Well, you were arrested in Miami, Fla., this year, were
you not?
jSIr. Lox'GAxo. Yes, I was.
Mr. Halley. January 19, 1950?
Mr. LoxGAxo. That is right.
Mr. Halley. What was that for ?
Mr. Lox^GANO. Questioning on the Brink's robbery.
Mr. Halley. Connected with the Boston robbery?
390 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr, LoNGANO. Yes.
Mr. Halley. And were you discharged ?
Mr. LoNGANO. That is right. The FBI was satisfied.
Mr. Halley. What were j'ou doing in Miami in January?
Mr. LoNGANo. I went for a vacation.
Mr. Halley. Where did you stay ?
Mr. Longano. I am trying to think of the hotel now. I just can't
think of the name of the hotel, but it isn't that I don't want to tell the
name of the hotel.
Mr. Halley. Was it on the beach ?
Mr. Longano. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long were you there ?
Mr. Longano. In Hollywood ?
Mr. Halley. How long were you there ?
Mr. Longano. Well, I didn't stay long because after all the pub-
licity I had and everything, I was disgusted and come back.
Mr. Halley. How long were you there ?
Mr. Longano. Maybe a week, not even a week I don't think.
Mr. Halley. Was your name in the papers when you were arrested?
Mr. Longano. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Did you go down alone or was your family with you?
Mr. Longano. I just went down alone.
Mr. Halley. Was the General Trading Co. closed up when you were
down there?
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer. It might tend to incriminate
me.
Senator Hunt. The vice chairman directs the witness to answer
"Yes"' or "No."
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer. It might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Halley. The record shows that the General Trading Co. at
Hasbrouck Heights closed its business on January 19, 1950. Was
there any connection between your being arrested in Miami and the
closing up of the General Trading Co. ?
Mr. Selser. May I object to the form of this question I How could
he possibly know what was in the minds of those who made the arrest?
This question calls for him to attempt to determine Avhy he was
arrested ?
Mr. Halley. I think he can answer it. Why don't you let him try?
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer. It might tend to incriminate me.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Mr. Halley. Now, Mr. Longano, have you ever been in a legitimate
business?
Mr. Longano. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. You have not?
Mr. Longano. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. What was the Cole Engineering Co., Lodi, N. J. ?
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer on the ground it might incriminate
me.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer on the ground it might tend to
incriminate me.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 391
Mr. Halley. Were you ever in Charlie's Grill at Little Ferry, N. J. ?
Mr, LoNGANO. I was.
Mr. Halley. And what was the business of Charlie's Grill at Little
Ferry, N. J. ?
Mr. LoNGANO. It was a restaurant.
Mr. Halley. Were you ever connected with it in any way ?
Mr. LoNGANO. I worked there.
Mr. Halley. In what capacity ?
Mr. LoNGANo. As assistant to Charles Koslow.
Mr. Halley. Was there any gambling at Charlie's Grill?
Mr. LoNGANO. Xo.
Mr. Halley. Was there gambling in any building close to Charlie's
Grill or connected with it in any way ?
Mr. Longano. No.
Mr. Halley. At no time ?
Mr. Longano. At no time.
Mr. Halley. Well, that was a legitimate job you had then, was it
not?
Mr. Longano. That is right.
Mr. Halley. You should not be shy about that. Did you ever have
any other legitimate job?
Mr. Selser. He said
Mr. Halley. He testified he never had a legitimate job.
Mr. Selser. Not a business. These folks seem to think it is not a
business unless they are bosses, not employees.
Mr. Halley. I will clarify that now. Thank you.
Have you ever had a legitimate job?
Mr. Longano. Off and on.
Mr. Halley. What were they ?
Mr. Longano. I have been a salesman for a vegetable firm.
Mr. Halley. How long ago was that?
Mr. Longano. That was just recently. I had it for awhile. It
looked like a good thing. It looked like a good job and it didn't
materialize.
Mr. Halley. You got no income out of it?
Mr. Longano. What?
Mr. Halley. You got no income out of it ?
Mr. Longano. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Looking at your own tax record from the year 1944
to date, I find the following sources of income listed. Would you
state which, if any, are legitimate sources ? Cole Engineering, Inc. ?
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer on the ground it may incriminate
me.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Mr. Halley. The second is called just "commission.'' Could you
tell the committee what you mean by commission ?
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Senator Hl'nt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. Longano. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Mr. Halley. It is noted that in 1949 you reported a commission
of $7,750. Could you state what the source of that $7,750 was?
392 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COAUMERCE
Mr. LoxGAxo. Repeat that, please.
Mr. Halley. You reported commission in 1949 of $7,750. Wliere
did that money come from?
jNIr. LoxGANO. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman directs the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. LoNGANO. I refuse to answer on the advice of counesl.
Mr. Halley. You do show income from Charlie's Grill. That was
a legitimate j ob ; is that right ?
Mr. LoxGANO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. And that was in the amount of $3,136 in 1945 ; $3,066
in 1946; $3,125 in 1947, and $2,496 in 1948. Is that right?
jNIr. LoNGANO. I refuse to answer on advise of counsel.
Senator Tobey. What is the job he had at Charlie's?
Mr. Halley. He said he was assistant manager.
Senator Tobey. A legitimate eating place, is it ?
Mr. Selser. Senator, his income-tax report is the subject of investi-
gation, and I advise him not to testify to any matters shown on his
income-tax reports at this time while this investigation is pending.
Senator Tobey. Is that an excuse or a reason ?
Mr. Selser. That is a reason, sir, and in my judgment it is the effec-
tive reason, as it shall hereafter be determined.
Senator Huxt. The acting chairman directs tlie witness to answer
the question.
Mr. LoNGAXo. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Longano, the next item of income is N. & T. Trad-
ing Co. Will you state what that was ?
Mr. LoNGAXO. I refuse to answer on advice of counsel.
Senator Tobey. Cannot you just tell us what it was ?
Mr. LoxGANo. I refuse to answer it. It might incriminate me.
Senator Tobey. You mean it might incriminate you to tell us what
the business was ?
Mr. LoNGAX^o. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Senator Tobey. I do wish we had something to make you answer.
I think it is an outrage to a committee of the Senate of the United
States to have these witnesses come up here and play dumb and curl
up and die before us and say, "We won't answer."
Who is running this country ? If there is the power in this country
I think there is, we will get the answers out of you somehow, in some
way, and maybe with interest.
You come before us with a record of the hold-up game, getting
money from criminal procedures, and being sentenced for carrying
a guii, and when we try to uncover these things by asking civil ques-
tions, what do we get ? What do we get ? A dumb answer, refuse to
answer, and won't tell us how you got $30,000, what the business was
at all.
I cannot understand the counsel's reasoning that just telling those
would affect his test case before the Federal Government, and I do
not believe it would. That is his opinion and he has a right to it.
Here is a committee trying to do a conscientious job, and someone
is putting rocks on the track, and I am sick of it.
Mr. Selser. I have already said that if this Senate will adopt a
procedure which will pei'init the disclosure of the information for
ORGANIZED CRESIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 393
Senate use — my quarrel is not with the giving of the information
but giving it under the program which is here set up, making it evi-
dential to all persons who may seek to use it. Now if the Senate
wants to set up a program which will give us the right to disclose
this information to the. Senate for its use, then please, sir, understand
I shall cooperate with the Senate and not advise my client as I am
advising him here in this proceeding under these conditions.
Senator Hunt. The Chair would say to the counsel that is not the
way we do business, under the table, in the United States Senate.
Mr. Selser. I am not asking
Senator Hunt. What Ave do is open and above board for public
information.
Mr. Selser. I am not asking for anything under the table, I am
asking for no favors, but I am refusing in public to discuss matters
which in my judgment can be used against this witness. It amounts
t o compelling him to testify against himself.
Senator Hunt. The advice you are giving to your clients is pre-
venting the Government of the United States from getting informa-
tion that it is rightfully entitled to.
]Mr. Selser. And I am perfectly willing to see to it that the Gov-
ernment gets its information if it will be done in such manner that
this man will not be subjected to these prosecutions.
Now I am not trying to defy the dignity of the Senate at all. I am
as loyal a citizen as anybody who lives in this country today. So far
as I am concerned, sir, I stand by my record of loj^alty to the country.
Senator Hunt. The acting chairman of this committee would like
lo say that it is interference of counsel like yourself that is preventing
the Government from getting a lot of this information, and it is also
activity on the part of counsel that is responsible for the continuation
of a lot of this gambling and crookedness throughout the United
States.
Mr. Selser. I am very sorry the Senator feels that wa}^, but, of
course, I suppose it would serve no purpose for us to exchange views.
I am trying to do a job for which I am employed in the representation
of my client, and I am doing it as best I can, sir.
j\Iy loyalty to my country I am willing to debate with anybody,
any time, any place under the proper circumstances.
Senator Hunt. It is a question of ethics as I see the situation.
Senator Tobey. Here is the State of New Jersey, a strong State and
a fine State, which seems to be a hot bed of illegality going on in con-
nection with these operations. Here is testimony that has gone into
the record today that $5,000,000 in 5 months was played within these
joints.
We have had hearings in New York that covered New Jersey before.
I cannot help wondering why the authorities in New Jersey do not
watch these things a little more carefully, and where the men with
criminal records are operating these places and getting an income of
$32,000, why they never at least raise their eyebrows to see the reason
why. So the great mad game to get money, the great mad game to
get rich goes on, and the law comes in disrepute and democracy is
threatened, as I see it. And the young people growing up who see
these things happening say, "What is the use of being straight?"
68958 — 51 — pt. 7 26
394 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
It is a pretty serious tiling in all these things, and any State in this
Union, and any city in this Nation that has got men in charge of the
authorities that are right themselves and want to stop these things,
they can stop them pronto. You know it and I know it.
We found it in California, a disreputable situation out there.
Things went on in Los Angeles under a pro forma sheriff's office. We
found it in connection with politics in California, where a man named
Samish rules like a law divine and has more power than the Governor
has in some things, and dictates what bills can go through.
And in New Jei*sey gambling hordes are carrying on, ex-convicts
making such money at 34 or 40 or 50 thousand dollars a year de novo
and won't tell us where it came from, what the business is.
I again say that any sovereign State in this Nation can stop it to-
morrow morning if they want to decide to do it, unless there is some
collusion, some protection being paid along the line. That is what we
ought to be uncovering in this country. We ought to be indicting
some public officials, saying, "Why didn't you do it i " Let the Ameri-
can ])eople once get mad enough and these things will happen, heads
will drop, I tell you, and it's about time we did in this country. That
is speaking from experience across the country.
Mr. Selser. May I say to the Senator that it is my belief that persons
more brilliant than I ever hope to be brought into being the fifth
amendment to the Constitution.
Senator Tobey. 1 am not arguing about the fifth amendment to the
Constitution at all. There it stands. I am not speaking about that.
I am speaking about the prevalence of gambling and crime across
this country where officials who have no backbone any more than a
chocolate eclair do not enforce a law and do not try to knock heads
together and clean house. And I say we found it in California, we
found it in New Jersey, we found it in Chicago. We are going to
find it some other places before we get through.
Mr. Selser. I am glad to hear that, sir ; and I feel that
Senator Tobey. I don't want to forget Florida. I wouldn't slight
Florida for the world. We will be there next week.
Mr. Selser. I think the Senator has given me a sufficient public
spanking and I am smarting under
Senator Tobey. I am not spanking you at all. All I am spanking
is the apathy and indifference of the public and the inefficiency and
lack of desire to enforce the laws of public officials. It has nothing
to do with you, sir.
Mr. Selser. I am sorry I made the remark.
Senator Tobey. Don't you agree with me ?
Mr. Selser. Yes; I agree with you. As a matter of fact, I was as
strong a crusader against these things in public office myself for a
period of time, sufficiently long, and have advocated exactly the things
you speak about.
Senator Tobey. I shake hands with you across the table.
Mr. Selser. But today, sir, I stand in the capacity
Senator Tobey. I know what your capacity is. I am not trying to
discriminate against you at all. I was making observations about the
specific ills in this country of ours.
Mr. Selser. Let the Senate then set up a program
Senator Tobey. We are in it rig-ht now.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 395
Mr. Selser. By which I can give you the information you seek
without violating a duty I owe to my clients, and you will have my
cooperation. I resent very much the manner in which this thing
is being done.
Senator Tobey. What thing?
Mr. Selser. This investigation here the last 2 days, which exposes
before the public matters which the prosecutors themselves could
not do.
This is the way I feel about it, sir, and I feel very keenly, not be-
cause I am getting a fair fee, but because I consider I am a member
of an honored profession, duty bound to perform duties under the
ethics of that profession, and I am doing it.
Senator Tobey. Now let me state to you in all kindness that you
are making this storm yourself. I was not referring to you in any way,
in any shape or in any manner. All I said was indicting the supine-
ness of public officials in enforcing laws across the country, and also
on the part of the public of not getting mad about these things. And
I made the statement, and I repeat it, and you join with me I think
Mr. Selser. Yes ; I do.
Senator Topey. That any State or any Government or subdivision
of Government that wants to clean up these ills in the body politic
can do it in 24 hours provided there is a desire to do it. There is
law enough in this country to do it.
Mr. Selser. I wish the noble State of New Jersey would put me in
a position from which I might exercise some of the powers that the
proper officials have.
Senator Hunt. Counsel, you had power, did you not, when one of
your clients was evading our subpena?
Mr. Selser. Beg your pardon?
Senator Hunt. I say you had some of that power when the previous
witness, your client, was evading the subpena ?
Mr. Selser. That client never evaded the subpena, Senator.
Senator Hunt. We will not discuss it any further. That is your
opinion he didn't.
Mr, Selser. I know he didn't.
Senator Hunt. This is my opinion, and I know he did.
Mr. Selser. May I finish my answer to the Senator who opened up
an issue which to me is quite touchy ?
Senator Hunt. We are all consuming too much time here in exploit-
ing theories. We will proceed with the examination of the witness.
Go ahead, Mr. Halley.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Longano, is it not a fact that in the year 1948 you
received income in the amount of $30,821.50 from the N. & T.
Trading Co.?
Mr. LoNGANO. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Senator Hunt. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. LoNGANO. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Mr. Halley. Mr. Longano. your income tax returns also show
income from the Pal Trading Co. Wliat is the Pal Trading Co. Is
that a legitimate business ?
Mr. LoNGANO. I refuse to answer on the advice of counsel.
Senator Hunt. The witness is directed to answer the question.
Mr. LoxGANO. I refuse to answer on advice of counsel.
396 ORGANIZED CRniE IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Longy Zwillnian ^
Mr. LoxGANO. I know liim.
Mr. Halley. How long?
]Mr. LoKGANO. I just know him to say hello to ; that is all.
]Mr. Halley, Have you ever worked for him ?
Mr. LoNGANO. Never.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever been associated with him in any busi-
ness ?
Mr. Longano. Never.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Willie Moretti?
Mr, LoxGANO. Oh, I know Willie 20 years or more.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever worked for him ?
Mr. LoxGANO. Never,
Mr. Halley. You have not been associated with him ?
Mr. Loxgano. No.
]\Ir. Halley, He testified, I believe, he took a trip West with you.
Mr, LoxGANo, That is right,
Mr. Halley. When was that ?
Mr. LoxGANO. When he went to California when he was sick, I
just don't know the exact date,
Mr. Halley. A few years ago ?
Mr, LoxGANo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Who went on that trip ?
Mr. LoxGANo.
Mr. Halley. Yes.
Mr. LoxGAxo. Myself and him.
Mr. Halley. Did you go by automobile or by some other means?
Mr, LoxGAxo. We went by train.
]Mr. Halley. Went by train ?
Mr. LoxGANO. Yes.
Mr. Halley, Did you pay your own expenses, or did he pay yours?
Mr, LoNGAxo. Well, I guess we both,
Mr, Halley. What do you mean? Did he pay some of your ex-
penses ?
]Mr. LoNGAxo. That is right.
Mr, Halley. Did you pay any of his expenses ?
Mr. LoxGAxo. No ; I don't think so.
Mr. Halley, Where did you stop on your way to California, at
what places?
Mr, LoxGAxo, I think at a home — I know a home the Two Black
Crows had up there, the Two Black Crows rented it out, I think they
call it that on the radio or something.
Senator Tobey. Moran and something ?
]Mr. Halley. Moran and Mack.
Senator Tobey. They were good, too.
]Mr. LoxGAxo. It was their estate. It was in Newhawk, Calif.
Mr. Halley. Newhawk. Calif. ?
» ]Mr. LoxGAXO. That is right,
Mv. Halley, Did you make any stops before you got to California ?
Mr, LoxGAXo. No.
Mr. Halley. You didn't stop anywhere?
Mr. LoxGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you make any stops on the wa}' back?
Mr. LoxGAXo. No.
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 397
Mr. Halley. Yon just went straight out and came straiolit back?
Mr. LoNGANO. I come back myself.
Mr. Halley. Did Willie stay \here?
Mr. LoNGANO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. How long did you stay before you came bat-k?
Mr. LoNGAXO. About a month, I guess it was.
Mr. Halley. Did you just vacation in California ?
Mr. LoNGAxo. I rubbed him. You know his legs needt^d rubbing,
and I used to rub for him.
Mr. Halley. You acted as sort of a trainer?
Mr. LoNGANo. Sort of a masseur.
jNIr. Halley. You were not the bodyguai-d. were you ?
Mr. LoNGANO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Did you make any stops yourself on the way back?
Mr. LoNGANO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Whom did you meet while you were out in rinlifornia?
Did you meet Jack Dragna ?
Mr. Longano. I don't think so.
Mr. Halley. You did not?
Mr. Longano. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you meet John Fischetti ?
Mr. LoNGANO. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever met either of those two ?
Mr. Longano. I might have seen Jack Dragna, not for sure. I don't
remember names or faces.
Mr. Halley. You don't recall actually meeting him: is that riglit?
Mr. Longano. No.
ISIr. Halley. Do you know Mo ]\f o Adamo ?
Mr. Longano. No, sir; don't know him.
Mr. Halley. Did you meet Joe Sica ?
Mr. Longano. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Sica ?
Mr. Longano. I don't think so.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vincent Mangano ?
Mr. Longano. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Of New York?
Mr. Longano. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joseph Prof aci ?
Mr. Longano. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Vito Genovese ?
Mr. LoNGAxo. I think I met him once. I am not sure.
jMr. Halley. Where did you meet him ?
]\Ir. LoxGAxo. I think at a wedding.
Mr. Halley. At AYillie Moretti's daughter's wedding?
Mr. Longano. I think so,
Mr. Halley. Do you know Albert Anastasia ?
Mr. Longano. Yes : I know Albert.
Mr. Halley. You do?
Mr. Longano. Yes.
INIr. Halley. Hoav long have you know him?
Mr. Loxgaxo. Not long.
Mr. Halley. Do vou know Little Auoie Pisano ?
:Mr. Loxgaxo. Not to talk to.
398 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE
Mr. Halley. Have you met him ?
Mr. LoxGANO. What?
Mr. Halley, You have met him?
Mr. LoxGAxo. I liave met Mm.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Salvatore Moretti?
Mr. LoNGANO. I do.
]Mr. Halley. Do you know Jerry Catena ?
Mr. LoxGANO. I do.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Ralph Conte?
Mr. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Do vou know Joe Adonis ?
Mr. LoNGANO. I know Joe.
Mr. Halley. You know Joe?
Mr. Longano. Yes.
JNlr. Halley. How long have you known Joe ?
Mv. LoNGANO. Maybe. I should say, about 8 years, 8 or 9 years.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Joe Massei ?
Mr. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Rocco Faschetti ?
Mr. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you know Frank Milano ?
Mr. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Frank Costello ?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes.
Mr. Halley. How long have you known Frank Costello?
Mr. LoNGANO. I think I was introduced to him at the wedding.
Mr. Haixey. Do you know Charley Binaggio?
Mr. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Did you ever meet him?
Mr. LoNGANO. No.
Mr. Halley. Do you own an automobile?
Mr. Longano. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Wliat kind?
Mr. Longano. Cadillac.
Mr. Halley. What model and what year?
Mr. Longano. Forty-eight.
Mr. Halley. Forty-eight ?
Mr. Longano. Yes.
Mr. Halley. What model ?
Mr. Longano. Sedan.
Mr. Halley. Does your wife own an automobile?
Mr. Longano. She uses that.
Mr. Halley. She uses that ?
Mr. Longano. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Do you have any other automobile?
Mr. Longano. No, sir.
Mr. Halley. Have you ever used any other Cadillacs that do not
belong to you ?
Mr. Longano. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Whose cars do you use ?
Mr. Longano. I have a friend in the City Motors that have cars
there I borrow once in a while.
Mr. Halley. Gus Piscale ?
ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 399
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Does he sometimes lend you a green Cadillac con-
vertible ?
Mr. LoNGANO. That is right.
Mr. Halley. Any other Cadillac?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes ; they have a Cadillac on the lot there I use a lot.
Mr. Halley. What kind is that?
Mr. LoNGANO. Cadillac Fleetwood.
Mr. Halley. Fleetwood?
Mr. LoNGANo. Yes.
Mr. Halley. Those two are both 1950's, are they not?
Mr. LoxGANO. No, I don't thiuk so. Yes ; I think one is a '50, and the
other is a '-16 or something.
Mr. Halley. Forty-six?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes; '46 I guess it is.
Mr. Halley. Did j^ou ever use James Cospido's Cadillac?
Mr. LoNGANO. Yes, sir.
Mr. Halley. I have been wondering why, if you care to say, you
have need to borrow those automobiles when you own one of your own ?
Mr. LoNGANO. Well, my wife is very sickly and I don't 
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