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Full text of "Investigation of organized crime in interstate commerce. Hearings before a Special Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, United States Senate, Eighty-first Congress, second session, pursuant to S. Res. 202 .."

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INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

OBGANIZED CEIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS 

FIRST SBSSION 
PUKSDANT TO . 

S. Res. 202 

(81 St Congress) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OP 

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



PART 8 



LOUISIANA 



JANUARY 25, 26; FEBRUARY17, 1961 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 







INVESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME 
IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-SECOND CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

S. Res. 202 

(81st Congress) 

A RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING AN INVESTIGATION OF 

ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 



PART 8 



LOUISIANA 



JANUARY 25, 26; FEBRUARY 7, 1951 



Printed for the use of the Special Committee To Investigate 
» Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
68958 WASHINGTON : 1951 



SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE ORGANIZED CRIME IN 
INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee, Chairman 
HERBERT R. O'CONOR, Maryland CHARLES W. TOBEY, New Hampshire 

LESTER C. HUNT, Wyoming ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin 

Rddolph Halley, Chief Counsel 
II 



CONTENTS 

Page 
Testimony of — 

Allen, Edward M., New Orleans, La., accompanied by Warren O. 

Coleman, attorney, New Orleans, La 31-35 

Arthur, J. C, Metairie, La 330 

Bertucci, John, Biloxi, Miss 261-265 

Bosch, John F., Sr., New Orleans, La., accompanied by Edward J. 

Boyle, attorney, New Orleans, La 330-349 

Brocato, James (Jimmy Moran) New Orleans, La., accompanied by 

Sam Monk Zelden, attorney. New Orleans, La . 220-231 

Broussard, Errol F., New Orleans, La., accompanied bv Robert 

Weinstein, attorney. New Orleans, La 304-306-309-314 

Carroll, Rev. Douglas, Biloxi, Miss 242-247 

Carruth, Rev. Thomas, Biloxi, Miss 242-247 

Cavalier, Vernile, New Orleans, La., accompanied by Alcide Weysham, 

attorney. New Orleans, La 206-217 

Clancy, Sheriff Frank J., Gretna, La., accompanied by Edmond E. 

Talbot, attorney, New Orleans, La 265-278-370-423 

Dawson, Rev. Dana, Metairie, La 107-114 

Ellis, W. M., Metairie, La 328-330 

Finn, David C. H., Jr., president, Local 410, Telephone Workers, 

New Orleans, La 217-220 

Fogarty, John J., New Orleans, La., accompanied by Warren O. Cole- 
man, attorney. New Orleans, La 81-99-355-358 

Grosch, John J., criminal sheriff, Orleans Parish, New Orleans, La. 169-185 

Grosch, Mrs. John J. (Viola), New Orleans, La 247-258 

Kastel, Phillip Frank, Metairie, La., accompanied by James O'Connor, 

Jr., attorney, New Orleans, La 115-169-282-293 

LaBauve, Howard, city marshal. New Iberia, La., accompanied by G. 

Wray Gill and William C. Orchard, attorneys. New Orleans, La_ 237-242 
Marcello, Anthony, Gretna, La., accompanied by G. Wray Gill and 

William C. Orchard, attorneys. New Orleans, La 188.194 

Marcello, Carlos, Marrero, La., accompanied by William C. Orchard, 

and G. Wray Gill, attorneys, New Orleans, La 36-54 

McCain, James I., attorney, New Orleans, La 195-200 

McGuire, Thomas Edward, agent in charge. Bureau of Narcotics, New 

Orleans, La 278-282 

Miller, Beauregard, town marshal, Gretna, La., accompanied by 

Robert Weinstein, attorney. New Orleans, La 358-363 

Moity, Warren James, New Iberia, La 57-67 

(Statement) Morrison, Hon. de Lesseps S., mayor of city of New 

Orleans, La 5-3 1 

Ozenne, Sheriff Gilbert, New Iberia, La., accompanied by G. Wray 

Gill and William C. Orchard, attorneys, New Orleans, La 231-237 

Pierpoint, Mrs. Celena, New Orleans, La 258-260 

Poretto, Joseph, Jefferson Parish, La., accompanied by P. M. Flanagan, 

attorney. New Orleans, La... 99-107 

Regan, J. E., representative of Western Union, New Orleans, La 67-77 

Reyer, George, New Orleans, La., accompanied by Warren O. Cole- 
man, attornev, New Orleans, La 349-354 

Rowley, Sheriff C. F. "Dutch", Arabi, St. Bernard Parish, La., 

accompanied by Richard A. Dowling, attorney, New Orleans, La_ 314-328 
Roufa, Maurice L, New Orleans, La., accompanied by Gus Levy, 

attorney. New Orleans, La 77-81 

Salzer, Albert, Metairie, La., accompanied by Robert Weinstein and 

Thomas E. Wicker, attorneys. New Orleans, La 293-304 

Trapani, Sam, New Orleans, La., accompanied by G. Wray Gill and 

William C. Orchard, attorneys, New Orleans, La 200-206 

ni 



jy OONTEINTS 



Page 



V 
Schedule and summary of exhibits ^ 

Thursday, January 25, 1951 ' jgy 

Friday, January 26, 1951-.-- _ 359 

Wednesday, February 7, 1951 __'...'.'. 425 

Appendix 



SCHEDULE OF EXHIBITS 



Number and summary of exhibits 



Intro- 
duced on 
page— 



1. Summaries of arrests by the vice squad of the New Orleans 

Police Department 

2. Exchange of correspondence between the State police of 

Louisiana and the New Orleans city officials 

3. Exchange of correspondence between the New Orleans city 

officials and the Southern Bell Telephone Co 

4. Subpena served on Edward M. Allen 

5. Statement of Edward M. Allen's total net worth 

6. Subpena served on Carlos Marcello 

7. Investigative report on Carlos Marcello, including criminal 

record, citizenship status, and brief curricula of information. 

8. Telegram from J. E. Regan in response to subpena of the 

committee 

9. Bills from Western Union to Daily Sports News and other 

subscribers to wire service 

10. Statement billing circuit that connects 507 Baiter Building, 

New Orleans, with 241 Davis Avenue, Pass Christian, La., 
dated January 3, 1949 

11. Record in form of telegram showing service furnished to 

Southern News Service and Publishing Co. from August 12, 
1946, until discontinued January 6, 1947 

12. Telegram from Poretto supporting Regan's testimony re 

Potetto, addressed to a Mr. Jackson of Western Union, 
New Orleans 

13. Injunction dated August 23, 1946, Poretto v. District Attorney 

for Orleans Parish, Lo uisiana 

14. Louisiana law on gambling and references in Louisiana State 

Constitution 

15. Statement of Philip Frank Kastel re his rights under State of 

Louisiana and Federal Constitutions, to refuse to answer 
questions which might tend to incriminate him 

16. Check payable to Frank Costello, dated October 28, 1949, in 

the amount of $3,468.80 

17. Copy of petitions of taxpayers in New Orleans to bring suit 

against Chib Forest and Beverly Country Club 

18. Photostats of orders to install telephones in alleged booking 

operations 

19. Settlement of record for $5,000 to Mrs. Viola Grosch from 

John Grosch, at time of their divorce in 1941 

20. Unrecorded settlement from John Grosch to his wife, Viola 

Livaudais Brosch, at the time of their divorce in 1941 

21. Record of purchase of strongbox by J. Smith, fictitious name 

used by Viola Grosch at time of purchase, dated November 
29, 1939 

22. Photograph of Cadillac automobile with John Grosch and 

Richard A. Dowling standing near it, and article from a 
New Orleans newspaper, re presentation of Cadillac to 
Grosch 

23. Statement No. 1 of Sheriff Frank J. Clancy 

24. Article in New Orleans States, Tuesday, January 23, 1951 

25. Book entitled "Louisiana Sheriff," introduced by Sheriff 

Grosch 

26. Current Rules and Regulations, and Code of Ethics, of Amuse- 

ment Association of New Orleans 

27. Telegram received from Frank J. Clancy, sheriff, Jefferson 

Parish, Gretna, La 



14 

14 

14 
32 
33 
36 

41 

70 

71 

73 

74 

77 
104 
114 

117 
150 
199 
220 
257 
258 

259 

260 
266 
295 

314 

333 

369 



' On file with committee. 



2 Written into record. 



INVESTirxATION OF ORCtANIZED CEIME IN INTEKSTATE 

COMMEKCE 



THURSDAY, JANUARY 25, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

New Orleans.^ La. 

The committee convened at 9 : 30 a. m. Thursday, January 25, 1951, 
Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman) presiding. 

Present: Senator Kefauver. 

Also present : Downey Rice, associate counsel ; Alfred M. Klein, 
associate counsel; George H. Martin, investigator; Ralph W. Mills, 
investigator; Lt. George Butler, Dallas Police Department, Dallas, 
Tex. 

Walter H. Hickman, official court reporter. United States District 
Court, Eastern District of Louisiana, was sworn by the chairman cor- 
rectly to report and transcribe the proceedings of the committee. 

The Chairman. I think before we start with our hearing that I 
might make a preliminary statement and announcement. 

In the first place, on behalf of the committee staff, we want to very 
sincerely thank many people, too many to mention all of them indi- 
vidually, for their hospitality and their assistance in helping us with 
this investigation : Mayor Morrison, mayor of the city ; Joseph Scheue- 
ring, superintendent of police; Judge Wright, the judge of the United 
States district court, who has made this hearing room available for 
us, and for which we are very grateful ; Mr. McKay, the district at- 
torney, who has been very helpful ; Mr. Knop, the marshal ; Mr. Mac- 
Dougall, of the civil service; Mr. Lambert, of the intelligence service; 
Mr. McGuire, of the Bureau of Narcotics; Mr. Taylor, of the alcohol 
tax unit; and many other State, local, and Federal officials and a>gen- 
cies, have all been very cooperative; also Mr. Kiley, when he was 
here in June of last year, making the preliminary investigation ; and 
Mr. Wright and Mr. Klein, and members of our staff, who have been 
here preparing for this hearing. 

I might also, at this time, introduce to those who may not know 
them : Mr. Rice, associate counsel, who has taken the lead in the last 
preparation of the investigation for hearing, who is on my left; our 
associate counsel, Mr. Klein, who is on my right: Mr. Pat Kiley, who 
was here in June and prepared a very extensive investigation; Mr. 
Butler, whom we borrowed from the Dallas police force and who has 
been working in New Orleans with the committee ; Mr. George Mar- 
tin, of our staff, and Ralph Mills, who has headed up our investigation 
in the State of Florida, in Miami, and in Tampa. 

1 



2 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

We also have two members of our staff whom we have on loan from 
the San Francisco police force, Frank Ahern and Tom Cahill, who 
are around here somewhere. 

It might also be well to state in a general way — first let me say 
Senator O'Conor was supposed to come down as the chairman of the 
subcommittee to hold this hearing, and he had looked forward to 
coming to New Orleans, this beautiful city, but a last-minute obliga- 
tion, of which he could not relieve himself, made it necessary for him 
to change his plans, so I am pinch hitting for him. 

The purpose of our inquiry, as all of you know, is to try to find 
out what criminal and racketeering and gambling operations are oper- 
ating in interstate commerce in the United States, and what protec- 
tion they receive, if we find these operations existing. 

The only purpose of the committee is to find out the over-all Nation- 
wide facts in order to make a re])ort to the Senate of the United States 
for the purpose of either amending existing laws or passing new legis- 
lation to try to assist the States and the Federal Government in break- 
ing up commercialized interstate operations; in other words, to see 
what if anything further can be done to deny the use of the vehicle of 
interstate commerce to any racketeers or criminals who might be oper- 
ating across State lines. 

In connection wdth interstate operations, I think I might also 
define briefly the scope of what we liave been looking into. 

Wire-service operations, where news is collected in one section of 
the country and passed to another across State lines, is of course a 
definite interstate operation. 

Where big-time racketeering or gambling goes on, where there are 
people living in one State and doing business in another, that is, of 
course, an interstate operation in which this committee is interested. 

Other violations of the Staf e law, where there are clearances through 
banks of one State into another, correspondence through the mails as 
an integral ])art of the operation, that is, of course, a matter that we 
are interested in. 

We are naturally interested in any violations of the Federal laws, 
such as narcotics, and transportation of stolen automobiles from one 
State to the other in violation of the Dyer Act, and the various 
Federal statutes. 

It is definitely not our province to pass upon or to make recommen- 
dations to local communities or to States as to the wisdom or lack 
of wisdom of their particular laws or ordinances. Also, it necessarily 
cannot be part of our province to have hearings about and try to 
ferret out all local criminal situations and try to pass judgment on 
law-enforcement officers in the various cities to which we go. That is 
a matter, of course, for the local community and for the States, and 
manifestly if we got into that kind of business we could probably 
spend 6 months in most any of the large or major cities in the United 
States, maybe 10 years throughout the country, and then start all 
over again. 

It is necessary that we complete our investigation by March 31, 
unless we secure a short extension, so that we can only hit the high 
points, 

I do not want our presence in New Orleans here to be interpreted 
as a condemnation of this great and beautiful city. We are here 
because we consider this section does have some operations which are 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 3 

of importance in the interstate ])ictnre, and that it is one of the nerve 
centers for the kinds of operations in which we are interested. 

We have had hearings in Miami and Tampa, Philadelphia, New 
York-New Jersey area, Washington, Kansas City, St. Louis, Cleve- 
land, Chicago, Las Vegas, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and we have 
had witnesses from various other parts of the country. We Avill, of 
course, have hearings in other major cities of the country. 

Another thing that I want to stress is that the appearance or non- 
appearance of a witness who may have been called on to testify is not 
to be taken as an indication of his involvement in anything that is 
improper one way or the other. Also that this is not a court; it is not 
a grand jury ; we are not interested and have no jurisdiction to punish 
anyone unless they are in contempt of the committee for refusing to 
answer a proper question. We are not trying to put anyone in jail, 
nor are we primarily interested in trying to reform anybody's morals. 
Of course we would like to do that if we could, but that is not our 
province. We want to try to get the over-all Nation-wide picture. 

We are grateful for the cooperation we have received, and we hope 
that the witnesses will assist us in trying to get the facts that may be 
developed here. 

I think I should also say that under the Federal statute testimony 
given here in question and answer form cannot as such be used in any 
other proceeding.. That is, if a witness says something here it can't 
be, over objection, repeated in some court. 

Another thing that I want to announce and hope that the press 
will carry is : That we are not here to smear anybody and we are not 
here to protect anybody. As far as our jurisdiction is concerned, we 
want to bring out the essential facts and let the chips fall where they 
may. I know that some people have different angles about matters 
they would like to have the committee go into. We will have to decide 
as we go along what we think is important and what we think is rele- 
vant. But we are not here to grind anybody's ax, or to prevent any 
testimony from coming out, or to smear or protect anyone. 

Then, also, necessarily in a hearing of this sort, while we try to 
prevent it altogether, or hold it to a minimum, it is inevitable that 
some people's names will be brought out who might feel that they 
have been disparaged or that the truth was not told about them, or 
that the matter has not been fully explained. We do not want to 
hurt the reputation of any good citizen. We want to give everybody 
a chance to make any explanation or denial or enlargement of any 
statement that may be made about them, so if anybody feels that 
they have been testified about unjustly, we invite them to let me 
or the staff immediately know, and on the same day that the state- 
ment has been given, we will undertake to give them a reasonable op- 
portunity to be heard, to rebut, or to explain anything that may have 
been stated. 

On the suggestion of counsel, Mr. Dow^ney Rice, in order to make it 
quite clear just what our resolution provides for, I think I should read 
it into the record at this time. Senate Resolution 202 provides, in the 
principal part : 

The committee is authorized and directed to make a full and complete 
study and investigation of whether oi'ganized crime utilizes the facilities of 
interstate commerce in furtherance of any transactions which are in violation 
of the laws of the United States or of the State in which the transactions occur, 



4 ORGANIZED CRIACE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

and if so the manner and extent to which the identity of the persons, firms, or 
corporations by which such utilization is being made, what facilities are being 
used, and whether or not organized crime utilizes such for the development 
of corrupting influences in violation of the laws of the United States or of the 
laws of any State. 

Now it will be our effort to try to conclude these hearings in 2 days. 
We may have to have night sessions both nights. At noon today we 
will be able to make an announcement as to whether we will have a 
session tonight. We have some witnesses upon whom we have tried 
to secure service of subpena that we have not been able to find. There 
may be some possibility they do not know they are wanted in order 
that we may talk with them at this hearing. 

Mr. Rice, who are the witnesses? You read them out. I can't 
remember their names. 

Mr. Rice. The Avitnesses for whom subpenas have been issued and 
we have been unable to locate, and for whom we would appreciate any 
information which would help us to do so, are Henry Mills, iVrthur 
Mills, Frank Mills, Osmon Litolff, and Henry Muller.' 

The Chairman. At this point, also, I want to enter into the record 
the resolution authorizing the chairman to appoint a subcommittee to 
hold hearings and to take testimony : 

Special Committb^e To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

December 22, 1950. 
Resolved, That tlie chairman of this committee be and hereby is authorized 
at his discretion to appoint one or more subcommittees of one or more Senators, 
of whom one member shall be a quorum for the purpose of taking testimony and 
all other committee acts, to hold hearings at such time and places as the chair- 
man m'ight designate, in furtherance of the committee's investigations of organ- 
ized crime, in the vicinities of the cities of Tampa, Fla., and New Orleans, La. 

EsTEs Kefatjver, Chairman. 
Herbert R. O'Conor. 
Lester C. Hunt. 

The marshal might check and see if any of those witnesses are here 
today. 

Deputy Marshal Btjrglass. They are not back there. 

The Chairman. Our first witness to give us a general picture of 
the matter, probably, is Mayor deLesseps Morrison. 

Mayor Morrison, will you come around? 

Mr. Edmond E. Talbot. Mr. Chairman, I am Mr. Talbot. I am 
an attorney and I represent certain clients. 

The Chairman. Let's get your full name, sir. 

Mr. Talbot. Edmond E. Talbot. 

The Chairman. Yes? 

Mr. Talbot. I represent clients 

The Chairman. Whom do you represent, Mr. Talbot? 

Mr. Talbot. Mr. Clancy and Mr. Cassagne. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Talbot. 

Mr. Talbot. I am not trying to suggest or dictate to you, Mr. Chair- 
man, as to how your affairs will be conducted, I know I cannot, but 
the press has carried a story to the effect that certain witnesses will 
be heard today, and there are a great number of witnesses and a great 
number of attorneys involved, and I was wondering if before you 
proceeded with Mr. Morrison you could call the witnesses, let them 
appear, and then let us know when we will be wanted. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 5 

Mr. DowLiNG. This is Richard Dowling. I represent Sheriff C. F. 
Rowley and represent Criminal Sheriff John E. Grosch — Chief Row- 
ley, of St. Bernard Parish — and we would ask the committee the same 
thing, Senator, if you will let us know. 

The Chairman. Yes. I had in mind, after Mayor Morrison's testi- 
mony, to call the roll of the witnesses that we have subpenaed, and 
certain ones we had asked to bring in certain books and records. 
Others we have already received. Then to try to work out a schedule 
for the convenience of the witnesses and the attorneys. 

Mayor, how long will your statement require ? 

Mayor Morrison. My statement will be about 2'5 minutes. 

Mr. Dowling. I might say, Mr. Chairman, as far as books are con- 
cerned, we have Sheriff Rowley's books whenever you are ready for 
them. We will produce them any time you wish them. If the mayor 
would not take but 25 minutes, I suppose at that time you can take up 
that question. 

The Chairman. Well, Mayor Morrison, suppose you stand aside 
for the time being and let's call the witnesses and see which ones have 
books and records. Then I think we can work something out. 

Mr. Gus Levy. I represent Maurice I. Roufa, from the Louisiana 
News Co. He has been asked to bring some records. 

The Chairman. All right, let's go dow^n the list of some of the wit- 
nesses we called to bring records. 

We have two men who will help with the records and who will be 
here rather shortly. Will it be inconvenient for you attorneys to 
wait for 20 or 25 minutes until they come ? Then we will go through 
the list of the ones that brought records and try to arrange some order 
in the matter. 

Mayor, we will hear you now. I want to say, Mr. Mayor, what I 
said before, that we do appreciate your cooperation. We appreciate 
the interest that you have had in this committee, and the chaimian 
has, of course, followed with interest your work in this general mat- 
ter of the proposition of the American Municipal Association and 
with the other groups with which you have been associated. We will 
be glad to have your statement, and then counsel will ask you any 
questions that we feel are not fully covered. 

STATEMENT OF DE LESSEPS S. MORRISON, MAYOR, CITY OF NEW 
ORLEANS, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

Mayor Morrison. Thank you, Senator Kefauver. 

I should like also to say on behalf of the city government that we 
would like to express our tlianks to you, Senator Kefauver, and the 
committee, for including New Orleans or the New Orleans area in 
your investigation. Your presence here climaxes a long interest on 
our part in the over-all problem of organized interstate racketeering 
and gambling. 

New Orleans has had this problem a long time. In late 1948, fol- 
lowing my election as president of the American Municipal Associa- 
tion, it became evident to me that we were not, by any means, the only 
city confronted by the problem of gambling surrounding us on all 
sides — but whose operations are beyond our jurisdiction. In talking 
to mayors of other cities it became apparent that our problem here 



6 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

appeared to be part of a national pattern, where the cities had law 
enforcement, but the adjoining parishes or counties the exact opposite. 
In the late summer of 1949, at a board meeting of the American 
Municipal Association in Chicago, Mayor Fletcher Bowron, of Los 
Angeles, and I discussed this problem at some length. AVe put the 
matter up to members of our board and thereafter, in September 1949, 
the American Municipal Association became the first governmental 
organization to publicly express its interest and concern over the 
existence and problem of organized interstate crime and gambling. 
Our association proposed to the Department of Justice a campaign 
of cooperative action at all levels of government. We pointed out 
what I would like to restress to you today ; that as local officials we 
fully recognized our responsibility at the local level of government, 
and are fully aware of our obligation to enforce our local laws. How- 
ever, so widely separated are the connecting links of this problem 
which goes across municipal, county, and State lines, and so vast is its 
scope, that in our opinion the best way to organize against it is through 
the medium of a thorough, competent, and fearless investigation by 
the United States Government. 

When Senator Kefauver and other members of your committee pro- 
posed the creation of your committee, the American Municipal Asso- 
ciation and its officers gave aggressive and continued support to your 
appropriation and the objectives of the proposed investigation. 

On February 15, 1951, when I had the honor of representing the 
AMA at the conference called by Attorney General McGrath, to 
combat interstate crime and rackets, one of our principal recommen- 
dations was support of the Kefauver bill which was then pending 
before the Congress. Among other things, we proposed Federal leg- 
islation against dissemination of illegal racing information, banning 
interstate and foreign shipment of slot machines, opening up internal- 
revenue tax records to a coordinated investigating committee, amend- 
ing the immigration laws to provide for deportation of any natural- 
ized citizen who used fraud or perjury in obtaining the priceless 
heritage of American citizenship, and the development of a coordi- 
nated master plan of action against the whole system of Nation-wide 
rackets by Federal, State, and local governments and citizen groups, 
such as those which have distinguished themselves in Miami and 
Chicago. 

Again in March 1950, in representing the American Municipal Asso- 
ciation before the McFarland committee, I gave similar testimony 
and similar recommendations. 

Since I am providing each of you with copies of the reports referred 
to above, plus my recent statement on the subject before the American 
Municipal Congress in Washington December 4, 1950, I shall not take 
up your valuable time with the details of these reports. 

Now let us turn to the Louisiana situation which, in my opinion, 
offers a fairly complete case history on how national gambling and 
racketeering elements aline themselves with local operators in a metro- 
politan area. First, to fully understand the situation, you must have 
a brief historical review. 

Records of the Federal district court here will show that during the 
10-year period prior to 1946, the Louisiana Mint Co., and its prede- 
cessor firms, Bayou Novelty and Pelican Novelty, owned and operated 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 7 

by Frank Costello, Pliil Kastel, and others, liad slot ma'chines oper- 
a'tino- openly in bars, restaurants, lunchrooms, and other establish- 
ments throughout the city. These machines, illegal and bringing in 
no tax revenue, ^Yere operated not only in defiance of the law, but under 
some sort of monopolistic arrangement, wherein only the machines of 
the syndicate were permitted. 

During this same period, prior to 1946, gambling establishments 
operated wide open in the business district and other parts of New 
Orleans. Handbooks flourished on such an open basis that it was a 
saying of the times that you could walk the five-block stretch on St. 
Charles Street, from Canal to city hall, and never miss the results 
of a single race from the loud-speakers which blared through the open 
doorways of the bookie parlors. 

In addition, the drawing for illegal lotteries were public events 
attended bj^ many of the credulous and hopeful purchasers of lottery 
tickets. 

In the parishes — counties — of Jefferson and St. Bernard, above and 
below the city of New Orleans, we had, and still have, one of Amer- 
ica's largest concentration of gambling houses. These establishments 
have always opei-ated wide open in violation of the law and apparently 
impervious to the sporadic attempts of citizens' groups to obtain 
action and court orders for their closure. 

To return now, for a moment, to the tremendous slot-machine opera- 
tion, it is a matter of public record in the New York Federal court 
that Costello testified that he brought his slot machines into Louisiana 
on the invitation and through arrangement with public officials at 
that time. That record is available to you and I have no doubt it 
is a part of your files on this subject. The immense proportions of 
this racket may be seen in the records of the income-tax trial of Cos- 
tello, Kastel, and associates in December 1939. They were indicted 
on charges of conspiracy to evade payment of more than $500,000 
income tax on income approaching $3,000,000 from the New Orleans 
slot-machine operations in 1936-37. It is also a matter of record that 
the defendants were acquitted of conspiracy to evade payment of taxes 
on grounds that the Government had failed to prove conspiracy. 

In December 1945, the United States collector of internal revenue 
in New Orleans revealed that Federal taxes were being paid on some 
5,000 slot machines operating in city limits. The annual take of the 
syndicate from this one operation was estimated into the millions of 
dollars per j^ear. 

It is my considered opinion that this branch-out into Louisiana in 
1936 by Costello and associates was the beginning of an organized 
national and perhaps international network of slot machines, gam- 
bling houses, night clubs, and related activities, some legitimate and 
some illegitimate. I believe also — and substantial basis for this has 
been dredged up by the crime commissions of Chicago and Miami, 
as well as your own committee — that the Costello axis, operating in a 
loose confederation of mutual interest with the heirs of the Capone 
gang in Chicago, became a powerful, monopolistic combination of anti- 
social interests which constitutes a definite menace to the various levels 
of government. 

Meanwhile, here in New Orleans, the syndicate withdrew its opera- 
tions after the election of the present city administration in Janu- 
ary 1946. Just a few weeks prior to that, they had completed the 



8 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

renovation of the Beverly Country Club in Jefferson Parish, and that 
was opened in December 1945 as one of the plushest gambling houses 
and night clubs in the country. The Beverly Country Club continues 
its operations today under the management of Phil Kastel and, I am 
informed, Dudley Geigerman, a brother-in-law of Costello, who has 
been associated with them in the slot-machine business and other 
enterprises. 

Three days before we took office in New Orleans, on May 6, 1946, 
the syndicate withdrew all of their slot machines from the city ; the 
gambling houses, the books, and lotteries closed down. 

We immediately laid down the policy of law enforcement which 
has since been consistently followed throughout the past 5 years of this 
administration. 

Bruce Smith, nationally known police consultant, was employed to 
survey the police department, and thereafter we reorganized the 
department along the lines recommended by him. With the retire- 
ment of some of the older captains and other officers, and the expan- 
sion of department personnel, we were able to bring in under Civil 
Service a growing number of young qualified veterans of World War 
II. Today we are proud of the performance of our police department 
during the past 5 years, despite handicaps of reduced funds and in- 
adequate personnel. We have only 944 policemen for 600,000 people, 
about 250 short of the national average. 

We say, with some justifiable pride, that in New Orleans today we 
have achieved the greatest degree of enforcement against gambling 
and related rackets within recent memory. But, gentlemen, we suffer 
in New Orleans by virtue of wide-open gambling in the two adjoining 
parishes. It is only a 10-minute ride to the large gambling houses, 
and every telephone in New Orleans (some 210,000) are possible 
sources of handbook violations. We average 20 to 25 policemen on this 
phase of enforcement alone. In 1950, for example, we arrested and 
convicted 471 violators, removed 320 telephones used for bookmaking, 
and notified the telephone company of approximately 400 addresses 
which should henceforth be refused telephone service. 

I also have the report — I am taking a sample here — of the period 
from August 1 to December 31, the last 5 months of 1950. The 
action by the vice squad, which is principally the people I am speaking 
of : 20 to 25 men who worked on that type of operation alone, we had 
266 lottery arrests; we had 230 handbook arrests; 165 prostitution 
arrests; 122 loitering; 25 suspicious, dangerous characters, some 10 
B-drinking; 9 breach of peace. 

On State acts we had 3 arrests on pay-offs on pinball machines; 
100 obscenity, and 100 investigations. This was a report of the vice 
squad for that 5 -month period. That, of course, does not include the 
arrest on the same subject made in the various precincts. 

May I say, with wide-open operations all around us, the degree of 
gambling law enforcement in New Orleans is dependent generally on 
how many men we can spare from the vital and major functions of 
the department, such as traffice enforcement, crime and theft detection, 
general patrolling and narcotics, auto theft, and so on. And, no 
matter how hard we work at it, gentlemen, violations continue to crop 
up, and will do so, we believe, until we get some over-all metropolitan 
enforcement in this area; that is, until we can rid this section of a 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 9 

]ar<ze group of professionals whose sole aim and whose sole business 
is the continual violation of the laws of the city and the State. 

It is a matter of record that we invited the State police into this 
area last month to add their weight and their manpower to the enforce- 
ment of handbook laws in tliis area. We specifically welcomed any 
additional arrests that could be made in New Orleans, but at the same 
time we pointed out that their effort would be wasted unless the State 
police also raided handbooks in the adjoining parishes on either side 
of us. The Governor of Louisiana acted promptly; and, although no 
additional arrests were made in Orleans Parish, the presence of State 
troopers in the area caused a close-down of the handbooks in Jefferson 
and St. Bernard. As a result of this, the Fairgrounds Race Track, 
which is a nonprofit businessman-supported institution, legalized by 
State law in 1910, has increased its legitimate business and our cor- 
responding tax return approximate!}" 30 percent. 

There are those, Senator, who say that the race tracks are no dif- 
ferent from other gambling violations. This is an attempt, of course, 
to justify their own rackets and their own law infringements, and 
may I say that such talk is only a smoke screen, for we know that a 
legitimate sports event supported by regulatecl, legally supervised 
wagering can be and is a community asset in a tourist center such as 
New Orleans. The same is the case in Miami, New York, and other 
places where racing is conducted. Because it is legal, and honestly 
operated, this necessarily means that there is no place in this particular 
enterprise for bribery, shake-downs, and huge illegal profits. 

And, while speaking of tourists, I'd like to point out one more thing 
which has often come up in the country. I think it is worth repeating 
here that there were peo]^le back in 1946 who — perhaps even con- 
scientiously, I might say — thought that elimination of gambling from 
the city would destroy our tourist business. May I say that how 
wrong have the past 5 years proven those people to be? Instead of 
decreasing, the tourist business in New Orleans has increased by leaps 
and bounds, and so has all other general business in this municipal 
city limits. To meet these demands, our skyline is presently dotted 
with new hotel additions and many new apartment hotels presently 
under construction. For the Sugar Bowl season, the Mardi Gras, 
and the Spring Fiesta time, our city is flooded by full Pullman cities, 
set up by all nine railroads to implement the woefully inadequate hotel 
accommodations. My conclusion is that the elimination of gambling 
from our city limits has not lost us any tourists ; but a healthier pro- 
gressive law-abiding community, we believe, has brought us many 
more. 

To go back to case history, in 1947, when it was learned that the 
Louisiana Mint Co. was storing slot machines in a warehouse near 
the river front, we had the place raided and destroyed and confiscated 
approximately 1,000 machines. Five hundred or so of those are still 
in our possession at the warehouse of the police department. Over 
390 were outright destroyed. This led to the filing of a $117,000^ dam- 
age suit against me ancl Superintendent Watters by Philip Kastel, 
Dudley Geigerman (brother-in-law of Costello), and their associates, 
wdio identified themselves as owners of the Louisiana Mint Co. The 
destruction of these 390 slot machines ended, to my knowledge, any 
effort to use New Orleans as a storage or distribution center for slot 
machines. I am also happy to say that the court threw out this dam- 



10 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

age suit on grounds that, the machines being illegal, Messrs. Kastel 
and company had no damage action against the city officials. 

There is an impressive array of evidence before your committee, 
some of it supplied by the New Orleans Police Department, concern- 
ing the tie-ins and tie-ups of the national operators with some of the 
local gambling element in Jefferson Parish. I am particularly re- 
ferring to the Kastel-Marcello axis which encompasses various enter- 
prises, including the Beverly Club, the racing-wire service in Gretna, 
the coin-machine distribution business, and other business operations. 

I will not go into detail on these because your staif, on its own 
initiative and through the reports of Police Sergeant Earl Weiser, 
has a voluminous file on this subject. Suffice it to say that Marcello 
and his associates have not been and are not welcome in the city of 
New Orleans. 

In the continued campaign against gambling, gentlemen, we have 
seen in recent years the creation of a police-department vice squad, 
operating under the superintendent direct. The record of raids, ar- 
rests, and convictions is a substantial one, and Superintendent Scheu- 
ering will be glad, I am sure, when he testifies, to go further in detail 
with you on that subject. 

We have also, during the past two years, set up a very close liaison 
S3'Stem with the Southern Bell Telephone & Telegraph Co., and have 
directed the telephone company to remove not only the handsets from 
raided establishments but also all telephone lines entering into these 
buildings. So far as I know, we are the only city in the country which 
not only notifies the telephone company at the time of the raid but 
also maintains through the police superintendent a monthly follow- 
up summary of raided establishments. We have made it clear to the 
telephone company that we insist on their full and prompt coopera- 
tion in the removal of these lines, which we believe is one of the most 
effective deterrents and harassments against those who are seeking to 
operate sneak handbooks in this city. 

Moreover, the police department, on my direction, has maintained 
a continued, periodic check-up on over-all gambling conditions in the 
New Orleans metropolitan area, with particular emphasis on dis- 
tributors for the Continental Press Service in Jefferson Parish and 
aggressive action against any efforts to establish direct wire service 
to bookies within our city limits. And outside of the three newspapers 
and the Daily Sports News, those are the only direct wires coming 
into New Orleans which we have checked and found not to be operat- 
ing handbooks. 

These investigations, performed primarily by the vice squad, have 
also been for the purpose of keeping us on the alert and properly 
informed of any efforts of handbook operators to come back into New 
Orleans, Much of the material developed by the vice squad and by 
Sergeant Weiser has been made available to your committee during 
the past year. 

In addition to the aggressive campaign of action against local gam- 
bling, we have, as a result of the initiative and cooperative action of 
the mayor's special committee on the French quarter, tightened mu- 
nicipal laws against prostitution, taxicab solicitation, and operation 
of bars. New Orleans, as previously stated, is one of tlie major tourist 
cities of America. Many visitors come here to enjoy themselves. We 
feel that they should be given every opportunity to have wholesome 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE H 

recreation and a cood time within onr city limits, so lonp; as they abide 
b}' the hiws of the city and the State. However, the city <;overnment 
has not. and will not, countenance immoral solicitations, mistreatment 
of visitors, or other efforts to prey illegitimately njjon them. 

In addition, as mayor, 1 have welcomed the interest and efforts of 
commimity leaders to establish a citizens' crime commission in New 
Orleans. We are familiar with the effective work performed by such 
bodies, especially in Miami and Chicaoo, and when these plans mate- 
rialize here they will be welcomed wholeheartedly by onr city govern- 
ment as another forward step in our efforts to do everything possible 
in building a better city. 

These, gentlemen, are the high lights of the situation in the New 
Orleans metropolitan area. 

One point which I have not covered in the prepared remarks is the 
point regarding the pinballs : Pinball operations in this area. I didn't 
because that, by law, is legal by State and city law, but it has certain 
ramifications which I think I should point out to the committee. 

I should like to point out that certain types of pinball machines 
operate legally in the State of Louisiana. They have been held by the 
court to be legal games of skill and amusement, insofar as they do not 
have an automatic payoff and insofar as they do not physically pay off 
on free games. And, as with all coin-operated devices, the city taxes 
and licenses are paid on these legal pinball machines. 

For some time, as a result of the police department investigations 
diiected by me, we have been interested in the relationships and tie-ups 
of indivicluals in the coin-machine business. It would appear from 
our check-ups that some firms are operating legally within the city 
limits of New Orleans and at the same time are operating illegally 
with slot machines in Jefferson, St. Bernard, and other parishes out- 
side our jurisdiction; that is, they handle the legal type pinball ma- 
chines in New Orleans and the illegal type slot machines in the ad- 
joining parishes. Even though they may be violating no law within 
our jurisdiction, I am having the city attorney look into the question 
as to whether the city can refuse to issue city permits to distributors 
we know may be operating illegally elsewhere. 

I want to point out some examples of that in this brief on the pin- 
ball. We know of no law that permits us to refuse the granting of 
the permit except if we find that the machine is actually violating the 
l:iw by virtue of a payoff that is made at the counter or at the cash 
register. Of course, this does not prohibit the possibility of fronts 
being used by these people that we would have no way of knowing 
about. 

I have prepared a simimary on these various companies that I 
would like to point out to you now. 

First of all, the Dixie Coin Machine Co. was at one time operated 
bv the late Julius Pace, Carlos Marcello, and Peter Natasi. In 1947, 
Dixie was sold to John Bertucci and is operated today in Bertucci's 
name. 

The Chairman. Do you have another copy of what you are reading 
from now? 

Mayor Morrison. I don't. I have prepared this at the last minute. 

* 

68958 — 51— pt. 8 2 



12 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The records of the mayoralty permit office show that E. W. Holi- 
field is manager. Dixie handles legal machines in New Orleans and 
slot machines elsewhere, in the opinion of Sergeant Weiser. 

Bertncci, the present owner of Dixie^ also was formerly associated 
with Marcello and Marion Matranga m operation of the Rex Coin 
Machine Co., distributors of slot machines, pinballs, and jukeboxes, 
3023 Jefferson Highway, Jefferson Parish, is their address. Ber- 
tucci is also listed in a police report as a backer of the Crown Dis- 
tributing Co., 720 Howard Avenue, in the city of New Orleans. 

Marcello and Matranga are said to have severed their connection 
with Rex a year or two ago and organized the One-Stop Coin Machine 
Co., 3857 Airline Highway, Jefferson Parish. Matranga is now man- 
ager of the One-Stop, which has six coin machine companies, one of 
six, rather, in Jefferson Parish which Superintendent Scheuering 
believes are backed by Phil Kastel. 

Now, we find that Matranga, in addition to being Marcello's partner 
in One- Stop, also is listed by Sergeant Weiser as a partner with 
Meyer Vernaci, another close associate of Marcello, in the Manhattan 
Amusement Co., distributors of pinballs and juke boxes at 303 Deckbar 
Avenue and 2111 Airline Highway, both in Jefferson Parish. 

Incidentally, the Manhattan Amusement Co. is the company that 
attempted to install slot machines in the Robert Todd homes, which is 
physically located in Jefferson Parish but which is a city housing 
project that took the place of Camp Plauche which was organized in 
the war. The machines went in there a couple of times and each time 
on a request direct to the sheriff they were removed. 

From the records of the city permit office, we find that Manhattan 
Amusement Co. bought permits in July for operation of five pinballs, 
two bowling games and one music box in New Orleans. These are 
all legal devices. The permit office lists Wallace Luke, 8208 Willow 
Street as representative. This is the address of Harry's Bar and 
Restaurant, and Luke is said to be the manager. 

It would appear here that Matranga and Vernaci, the owners of 
Manhattan and Marcello's Associates, have designated Luke to act for 
them or their customers in obtaining city permits for the above- 
mentioned machines. 

Incidentally, we issue a little over 2,000 pinball permits in the city 
of New Orleans per year which brings in $50 per permit, or a little 
over $100,000 per year in income. 

We find as a partner in Crown, Nicholas Carbajal, who is also listed 
as a one-time partner of Marcello, Matranga, and Bertucci in the 
Rex Co.'s slot-machine business. Carbajal is also the son-in-law of 
the late Julius Pace, who was Carlos Marcello's one-time partner in 
the Dixie Coin Machine Co. 

Jefferson Amusement Co., 335 Huey P. Long Avenue, Gretna, Carlos 
Marcello's headquarters, is said by Sergeant Weiser to be owned by 
Carlos and Vincent Marcello. This firm, likewise, distributes slot 
machines, pinballs. and phonographs. 

There is also a Jefferson Music Co. at this same address. The city 
permit office says that Vincent Marcello formerly operated the Jeffer- 
son Music Co., but later sold ont to a Mr. E. Willie of the Algiers 
Music Co., 400 Newton Street. That is in the city of New Orleans. 

Concerniug the Willie family, police records show that Harry 
Willie, 8724 Olive Street, is the distributor for pinballs, and that Wil- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 13 

lie and Seelman, 12021/2 Dante Street, owned by Otto Willie and G. 
Seelman, also distribute pinballs and phonographs. Otto Willie is a 
cousin of the above-mentioned E. Willie of the Algiers Music Co. 
Otto Willie-s police record includes an arrest as a suspicious person 
and carrying a concealed weapon in 1930, and again pending investiga- 
tion of Jefferson Parish bank robbery in October 1930. 

It is also interesting to note that the Smitty Novelty Co., which on 
September 5 was issued 15 pinball permits by the city of New Orleans 
is owned by Theodore Geigerman, 5146 Lafaye Street, brother-in-law 
of Frank Costello. Police say that Geigerman has a man named 
Henry Smith who fronts for him as the operator of the Smitty Novelty 
Co. This pinball distributing firm was formerly located at 1525 
South Liberty Street, 1326 Kerlerec Street in the city, and is now 
domiciled in Jefferson Parish at 619 Honore Drive, Metairie, in the 
Metairie area, rather. 

One more company, the Southern Coin Machine Exchange has of- 
fices in both Jefferson Parish and in the city. Slot machines are dis- 
tributed from 2631 Jefferson Highway and pinballs and bowling games 
from their office at 514 Dryades Street, which is always kept locked. 
This address was recently raided by the police, and we will give a 
rejDort of that raid to you. 

Then there is, finally, the L. & R. Amusement Co., 4901 Airline 
Highway, which distributes pinballs and phonographs, likewise. The 
owner is one John Lingle, alias Chicago White3^ He is said to own 
the Horse and Buggy Lounge, formerly LeRendezvous at Bourbon 
and St. Peter Streets, and also the Twin Oaks Tourist Cabins in 
Jefferson Parish at the above-mentioned Airline Highway address. 
Police have verified information that Phil Kastel is one of the backers 
of this particular amusement company. 

The Chairman. What is the name of that one, Mr. Mayor? 

Mayor Morrison. The L. & R. The L. & R., incidentally, holds 
a small number of pinball permits in Orleans Parish. Altogether, 
these six or eight companies I have mentioned have approximately 
50 to 75 permits out of over 2,000 permits issued in the city of New 
Orleans. 

Finally, gentlemen, I would like to say in conclusion, that these 
people that we are talking about are very smart, as well as predatory. 
They are shrewd, persistent and resourceful. They will resort to any 
diversionary tactics to distract attention from their own large-scale 
operations in attempting to confound and confuse, to threaten, intimi- 
date and scare off the timid. Furthermore, they will villify and 
attempt to undermine any conscientious and honest officials who refuse 
to play their game. 

In this city we believe we have run them out of the city limits, but 
they still hover around our borders, ever watchful for the opportunity 
to return to the lush pickings of the past. 

Senators Tobey and Wiley have aptly said that this problem will 
never be solved until the people are aroused and act, and here in New 
Orleans a few years ago the people did get aroused and they did act. 
In certain other cities the same thing has happened, likewise. But let 
me stress that the people can only rise up after they know the facts. 
You cannot expect them to do something about a problem until they 
know it exists and how deeply it affects their community and their own 
daily lives. 



14 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

That, in my opinion, is one of the most usef nl services performed by 
this committee. We are focusing public information and attention on 
what, until recei^' \y, was one of the most vicious and least understood 
problems in our niodern society. Your committee, we believe, has 
conclusively proved the thesis originally brought out by the AM A that 
there exists today in this Nation an organized pattern of underworld 
activities, with links within links, wheels within wheels. Your investi- 
gations have revealed that vast operations are financed and directed by 
bosses behind the scenes, who are bound together in some sort of 
illegal confederacy. Their operations cross, as I said before, the 
jurisdictions of cities, counties, parishes. States, and even national 
boundaries in some cases, down into jNIexico and into other countries. 

I might say that you gentlemen and your efficient staff have gone a 
long way toward proving our case that organized, interstate gambling, 
rackets, and related operations are far more than a local matter. 
They constitute a problem that demands continued organized action. 
In this brief this morning I have tried to point out the salient facts 
whv that is absolutely the case. 

I would like to leave with you our sincere recommendations that 
this committee seriously consider and report favorably on the need 
for continued cooperative and effective follow-through on this subject 
after you have concluded your investigations. And further, that you 
urge the passage of the Federal legislation which has been recom- 
mended and supported by a large majority of the mayors throughout 
America, and may I say that the information provided in this hearing 
(we have asked for copies of the transcript for our police department) 
will be of material aid to us in carrying out the law enforcement poli- 
cies of our city government. 

I believe that the challenge from the underworld must be met with 
organized, cooperative action, and I should like to, on behalf of the 
city government of New Orleans, to pledge to you the continued in- 
terest and the continued support of our city government of New 
Orleans, and of the American Municipal Association in doing our 
part toward this very fine objective. 

That completes, Senator Kefauver, my remarks, except for the 
fact that I would like to file in the record a few exhibits, summaries 
of raids by the vice squad, also, an exchange of communications be- 
tween ourselves and the telephone company : this monthly summary 
which gives all of the locations of places raided and the type of tele- 
phone equipment they have. 

The Chairman. We would be glad to have them filed as exhibits. 
Do you have them here, Mayor Morrison ? 

Mayor Morrison. I have, yes. 

The Chairman. They will be made a part of the record. Let them 
be marked in sequence. 

Mayor Morrison. Make that Exhibit No. 1 : that is summaries of 
arrests by the vice squad covering certain periods; also, exchange of 
correspondence between the State police and ourselves will be exhibit 
No. 2 ; and exhibit No. 3 is the exchange of correspondence between 
ourselves and the Southern Bell Telephone Co. I would like to imple- 
ment this with additional letters which Chief Scheuering gave to us : 
this is not all of them. I will implement that with additional letters. 
(Exhibit No. 1 appears in the appendix on p. 425; Exhibits Nos. 2 
and 3 are on file with the committee.) 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 15 

The Chairman. You have some other papers? 

Mayor Morrison. These are notes and papers. 

The Chairman. Mr. Mayor, we appreciate your statement very 
much. 

I think counsel has some questions to ask and I have a few that I 
want to ask. 

]\Ir. Rice. We are interested in knowing, Mayor Morrison, a little 
bit about the experience you have had with the handling of the so- 
called racing-wire services in this city. Could you give us a little 
background ? 

Mayor Morrison. The experience that I have had, Mr. Rice, is that 
shortly after I entered office, in 1946, there was a wire service oper- 
ating in the Baiter Building which I believe is Continental Press 
Service, or an arm of it. 

The Chairman. What is the name of that building? 

Mayor Morrison. B-a-1-t-e-r — Baiter Building on St. Charles 
Street. Shortly thereafter about 2 months afterward another group, 
which we believe to liave been identified with Trans- American, came 
in and set up operations on St, Charles Street about a block away 
from the Baiter Building. Both institutions were raided, if my 
memory serves me correctly, about a month or a month and a half 
after we entered office. The equipment was seized and destroyed, ap- 
proximately $35,000 worth of equipment from both places, and from 
that time on they retired to, we believe, Gretna; at least one company 
did. I don't know what happened to the other ; they may have com- 
bined and they have not operated in New Orleans since. I might say 
that the reason that we waited a month or a month and a half before 
making any raids is that there was a State law w^hich legally permits 
the dissemination of racing infonnation, passed in 1940, and after 
the Los Angeles conspiracy case was decided, which involved the water 
taxis out to the gambling boats, we felt we could make a conspiracy 
case, and went in with the charge of conspiracy, and made the raid 
based upon a charge of conspiracy that although they were not vio- 
lating the handbook laws in Orleans Parish they were an instrument 
whereby the handbook laws of the State were violated in other par- 
ishes, and since the conspiracy occurred in Orleans Parish we felt 
they could properly be arrested and charged in Orleans Parish. 

Now. we have checked the direct wires which, of course, we are very 
concerned with. The two main sources for handbook violations would 
be, of course, the direct wire or the telephone relay, and we have ^very 
seldom, I think on one or two occasions in the last 41/2 years, we have 
found direct live wires being used for handbooks. But principally 
the only four live wires are the ones I mentioned : the three local press, 
Item, Times-Picayune and States, and the Daily Sports News, and 
there was another company — I can't recall the name — down below 
Canal Street. The Daily Sports is up on Camp Street, which made a 
total of five. We have checked those addresses to make sure that it 
was strictly a publishing proposition. From our information with 
regard to the two others other than the Daily Press, they were defi- 
nitely in the business of printing Daily Sports News, racing results, 
and forms. 

But we have on tAvo or three occasions — and Superintendent Scheu- 
ering knows those better than I do — found direct wires wdiich would 
be perhaps part of this Continental system. That is only an excep- 



16 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

tion. By and large they have not sent any direct wires into the city. 
I have also checked very carefully with Western Union, who leases the 
wires to Continental, and we have, of course, their statement that there 
are no live direct wires in New Orleans. We believe that the service, 
rather, in 99.9 percent of the time, Mr. Rice, comes in this fashion : the 
direct wire is in Gretna. There is a location where there is a battery 
of telephones where each phone supports a handbook in New Orleans, 
and whenever we go in and raid we take out the phones. But that 
means that that particular operator may move to another barroom, 
get another phone or get the phone that that barroom has and set up 
again, using this same telephone relay. We have even found that tele- 
phones get reinstalled after we have taken them out, and that is one 
of the problems we have up with the telephone company constantly — ■ 
is the reinstallation of addresses which have been raided. They are 
frank to admit those are mistakes that have been made by the company. 

Mr. Rice. Have you had any difficulty occasionally in locating the 
actual handset, or the telephone, and tracing it back to the wire serv- 
ice ? Have you had any difficulty along those lines ? 

Mayor Morrison. Well, I can give you the experience we had which 
was quite unusual. We found out through a source — we found out 
things through various sources — that there were 29 telephones at a 
certain address on the Jefferson Highway, each one of which supported 
a handbook in New Orleans, and we have the telephone numbers of 
these phones. They were all consecutively "Temple" four numbers, 
and then 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and on up. I called in the telephone company 
and they first stated to me that they could not remove them because 
the telephones were properly installed and that their lawyers said that 
they could be sued. We pointed out to them that this obviously was a 
part of a violation in Orleans Parish and we demanded that they be 
removed as the simplest way for us to terminate that operation. Ac- 
tually, the telephone company brought in the sheet on which they 
obtained the — I asked how was it possible for someone to obtain 29 
telephones when there is a waiting list of six or seven thousand people 
for legitimate purposes that can't get a phone. The application 
indicated that the phones were secured for solicitation for bank night — 
bank night, of course, being illegal, too. So after much discussion the 
telephone company did remove these phones. We stated we would 
turn it over to the public if they didn't and we felt it was in the public 
interest to do it. So we know that that is the situation, in answer to 
your question, that we have developed as one fact, and I suppose it 
exists in a lot of other ways. 

Mr. Rice. Have you had any experiences with set-ups whereby they 
might have jacks which could be pulled when the police arrive? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us about that. 

Mayor Morrison. Today the securing of telephones by hand opera- 
tors is very difficult. What they do, they go down the block and get 
someone's telephone and have a jack system with pull-outs on either 
end, and the minute the police squad comes in to raid, someone pulls 
the plugs. That keeps us from tracing in any way where the phone is. 
We pick up the handset and we pick up the equipment we find. The 
telephone company goes in and they don't find any connection into that 
building. As a matter of fact, one of these reports goes into that. I 
company representatives were unable to trace lines to the tenninal. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 17 

Mr. Rice. These were in handbook operations in the city ? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes. So, ahnost half of the Iwations raided in 
1950, "and particnhirly in tlie last part of the year, that is inore and 
more the case. We don't find a direct terminal in the bnilding any- 
where. And the company representatives, by the time they get there, 
are not able to trace from whence they get that telephone service. 

Mr. Rice. How is that arranged? Do you know who makes the 
installations ? 

Mayor Morrison. Only on information ag^ain, and 1 have no direct 
proof except statements made to me by other people that these installa- 
tions are made by employees of the telephone company. In fact, 
Superintendent Scheuering and I have the admission of one former 
handbook operator who stated to us that that was the only way he 
received his telephone service for he had no other means of getting it. 
He had no means of buying handsets or buying wire or anything else. 
When I made that statement at the time the telephone workers union 
took issue with me and stated I was casting aspersions upon their union, 
which, of course, I was not doing, but merely giving the case of one 
person who obviously had made this installation. 

Mr. Rice. In other words, when you say it was installed by tele- 
phone-company employees, you mean in an unauthorized fashion ? 

INIayor INIorrison. Absolutely unauthorized and without the knowl- 
edge of the company ; but obviously they have access to their phones 
and their equipment because this particular man says "I didn't 
know where to buy telephone sets. I only got them in one place." 
Now he 

Mr. Klein. The gamble made it worth while to the employee 
to make the installation? 

Mayor Morrison. He further stated it cost him about $300 to get a 
phone in that fashion. 

The Chairman. You mean to get a phone which the telephone com- 
pany, itself, didn't know anything about? 

Mayor Morrison. That is right. 

The Chairman. And tied into its lines? 

Mayor Morrison. Tied into its lines through this jack system Mr. 
Rice spoke about. 

Mr. Rice. That line in turn going to the wire service outlet. 

Mayor Morrison. Going to a telephone relay which in turn has 
direct wire service. 

I point this out because these are problems that we have. Every- 
body thinks it is very simple: Handbooks are operating in New 
Orleans, it is just as simple as that to go out and find it and put them 
out of business. But for every move we make there is a countermove 
of some sort to get around us. As long as we have wide open floor, 
handbooks on all of the borders of New Orleans, practically every 
telephone in this city is a possible source of handbook violations. 

The Chairman. You mean that they can call for a nickel to the 
wire service and back and forth? 

Mayor Morrison. They can do that. 

Mr. Rice. Keep an open line and get the local results. 

Mayor Morrison. Right. 

Mr. Rice. Over microphone or loud speaker set-up. 

Mayor Morrison. Also, there is one other thing they can do; you 
have what you call the walking handbooks. The man can go out and 



18 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

book his bets from his various customers and get on any telephone and 
call them in and place them. That wouldn't be horse parley; he 
wouldn't have the returns coming back. He would merely go out 
the next day and pay off his bettors. I merely point that out; that 
is one of our biggest problems and it isn't insurmountable. Little 
by little we are making gains on it, but we still have, much to our 
embarrassment from time to time, continued cropping out of hand- 
books in New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. In connectipn with the handbook operations, have you 
been able to determine whether they participate in the lay-off system? 

Mayor Morrison. Well, again I am not speaking from direct knowl- 
edge, but I understand through police circles that they do. They do 
have lay-off systems. That is where the confederacy of these people 
comes in. If you ask one of them "Are you a partner of so and so 
in Chicago, or New York," they say "No"; truthfully no. Still and 
all they have some kind of working understanding ; they can get ahold 
of somebody in Chicago and lay off a certain amount of their bets 
that they don't want to carry, so in effect it is a loose confederacy ; 
people who understand and trust each other in that business. 

Mr. Rice. Have your enforcement agencies beeen able to trace 
through toll calls or otherwise, the lay-offs to any particular cities 
that you might have in mind ? 

Mayor Morrison. Again, I would prefer Chief Scheuering giving 
that. We do have something of a material nature, during the last 
3 or 4 months on that. We do have the record. The telephone com- 
pany told us that anything past 6 months — I think you said a year 
now — during this particular year, because of the existence of the 
Kefauver committee, anything past that period is destroyed. Now, 
we did contemplate issuing a subpena on the telephone company and 
we got an opinion from the city attorney that we had no right to do 
that; that is, unless we have some case against the telephone com- 
pany, or some case against one of its employees involving these long- 
distance calls. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it possible to get the toll calls on the proprietor 
basis of the telephone company standing on the 

Mayor Morrison. At the present time, it may be that the police 
department didn't actually request it because we didn't have a legal 
right to. I addressed a memorandum about 3 months ago to the 
district attorney asking for an opinion and he stated we didn't have 
the right ; and I knew at the same time you were getting the records, 
so I felt they would be available to the Government. 

Mr. Rice. Have the enforcement agencies had any difficulty with 
Western Union getting the records of drops of wire-service outlets? 

Mayor Morris(^n. I don't believe we have. Of course, we have had 
the statements of Mr. Jackson, we have had our own detectives up at 
Western Union checking on them. As I stated before, there are five 
known, admitted drops in the city. In addition to that, we have 
found on two or three other occasions, live wires to handbooks in New 
Orleans other than these five admitted locations, and the reason for 
that is that they have about twenty-some-odd lines they have told us 
that were dead and had been dead since 194:6, but they have not been 
removed physically. 

Mr. Rice. Those are what they call unequipped circuits ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 19 

Mayor Morrison. Yes; but tliey are in, in the event some day the 
situat'ion would change and they wouldn't have to reinstall these lines 
again, we have no means of making them remove them. 

Mr. Rice. But the lessees still pay rental on these lines, do they 
not ? Are they within the city limits? 

Mayor Morrison. They are in the city limits ; yes. 
' Mr. Rice. About how many of those are there ? 

Mayor Morrison. Well, again, Mr. Jackson's statement is to the 
effect 'that they have about 22, 1 think. The ones we have caught have 
actually been some of those 22, and not the 5 legitimate ones. In each 
case when we find a line of that sort we actually remove everything 
that is there and we ask them to pull out the line. That still leaves 
the balance of this network that is still in here. 

The Chairman. Where does the line come from ? 

Mayor Morrison. It comes from, I'll say, Gretna, from their nerve 
center. 

The Chairman. You mean somebody is paying rent on it on a 
stand-by basis hoping they can use it sometime? 

JNIayor Morrison. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Mr. Jackson, I suppose, can give us the names of 
those people? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes. 

Mr." Rice. Isn't it possible. Mayor Morrison, on some of those lines, 
which are activated by electricity, wouldn't it be possible for some- 
one having that outlet to attach their own equipment and get into 
operation without the knowledge of Western Union ? 

Mayor Morrison. That might be possible. 

Mr. Rice. Has that ever occurred ? 

Mayor INIorrison, We have an expert in the police department on 
that subject. In fact he has been assigned to the telephone company 
and the Western Union in the last 2 months, who is a former employee 
of the telephone company, and I would only be giving my opinio*n 
on it. 

Mr. Rice. AVell, have you had any experience in locating an opera- 
tion where there has been unauthorized equipment attached to the 
so-called unequipped or dead-drop ? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes, those are the cases I am talking about. I 
would say on two or three occasions in the last 41/2 years, as a matter 
of fact, almost universally the situation is the same. It's a telephone 
and not a direct wire. But once in a while, very ineffectively — those 
are the times I am speaking about — we have actually found a live 
wire equipped, as you say. 

Mr. Rice. So that these unequipped drops numbering some 20, would 
it be a fair statement to say they are a constant menace t 

Mayor Morrison. They are. 

Mr. Rice. As long as they are in and paying rent on them ? 

Mayor Morrison. That is correct, they are. 

Mr. Rice. It would be very difHcult to police the activities on them? 

Mayor Morrison. We have to rely on the Western Union : that they 
have given us the direct dope. We assume that they are. They are a 
reputable company. I don't see why they would want to 

Mr. Rice. Well, the point is that the wires are in. They go into a 
private building. It is possible that the occupant of the building can 



20 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

hook onto that line without police knowledge and get it into operation 
without the knowledge of Western Union ? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes. Of course, I wouldn't know about that. 
Those are the cases we have found. We would like very much for 
them to remove them. And Mr. Jackson is here 

The Chairman. Isn't there any way you can force them to move 
them when you find one being used ? 

Mayor Morrison. We can remove that one ; yes. We have removed 
that particular one. In the case of any telephone or any wire of any 
sort used for gambling we have the perfect legal right to seize every- 
thing involved, within our city, but, as long as they are there, they 
may say, well, that may be for another news company, that may be for 
the Times-Picayune, the States, the Item. They could say that, of 
course, and the mere fact it is a possible source, I don't think we have 
the right to take it out. If we did we would certainly take action; 
and I will state now if we had the legal right to remove them we'd take 
proceedings with the Western Union to get them out. 

The same thing, incidentally, Mr. Kice, with regard to the slot 
machines stored. We didn't know whether we legally had the right 
to seize and destroy a slot machine which was merely being stored, 
particularly when they stated they were mint vending machines, but 
we took the chance in this raid on Chartres Street, and we got sued 
for it. Fortunately, we were able to win the lawsuit. We were sued 
personally for damages for breaking these machines on the ground 
that they were merely mint vending machines and not violating any 
law. 

Mr. Rice. So that you feel now, that an interpretation of the law is 
that a slot machine maybe seized and destroyed wherever found ? 

Mayor Morrison. Correct. That is the ruling of the Louisiana 
courts now ; that it is a device 

Mr. Rice. How long ago was that case ruled on ? 

Mayor Morrison. Our particular case, incidentally, is not the 
only one. Our particular case we won in the lower court and we 
have merely been waiting for the year to go by for appeal so it 
would be definitive. The year has gone by and it is definitive. 

Mr. Rice. The year has gone by ? 

Mayor Morrison. The year has gone by since we won our judg- 
ment in the district court. No appeal was taken. But on another 
basis there have been criminal actions which have been appealed and 
the decision of the State supreme court rendered about a year ago 
is that a slot machine is a gambling device per se and may be destroyed 
where found, whether in operation or not. 

The Chairman. Suppose that before we continue on with ques- 
tioning, I think Mr. Klein has some — we have a 5-minute recess. 
It will only be 5 minutes, if you don't mind Mr. Mayor. 

The Chairman. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes. 

(Short recess.) 

Mayor Morrison. Mr. Rice, I believe I could more specifically give 
you the addresses of these drops. That is by virtue of a check up on 
the addresses. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mayor Morrison. There are two locations in which we found 
Western Union drops. One is 309 St. Charles Street, and the other 
is 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21 

Mr. KiCE. What is that 309 St. Cliarles? 

Mayor Morrison. That is an address where we found a Western 
Union drop, made a handbook raid and instead of telephones we 
found a direct wire which was reported to be dead but which actually 
was live and receiving direct wire service in that location. 

Mr. Rice. This was a telegraph wire as distinguished from a tele- 
phone wire ? 

Mayor Morrison. Right, a Western Union Telegraph leased wire. 

Mr. Rice. And that was going to 

Mayor Morrison. Gretna 

Mr. Rice. To the Daily • 

Mayor Morrison. That is in the Continental Press system. 

Mr. Rice. The forwarding system. How long ago was that? 

Mayor Morrison. I would say within the last year and a half. 
There is another one, too : Exchange Alley and Iberville Street, don't 
have the municipal number on it, we found a direct Western Union 
drop. That is one of the 22 drops that were supposed to be dormant. 

Mr. Rice. Unequij^ed? 

Mayor Morrison. Unequipped. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know what the equipment was that was acti- 
vating the line? In other words were they using an unauthorized 
ticker or 

Mayor Morrison. Loud-speaker? 

Mr. Rice. Loud-speaker or just what was the arrangement? 

Mayor Morrison. It was a loud-speaker. 

Mr. Rice. You don't get a loud-speaker over a Western Union 
wire; you get either a key or a 8-A ticker. Which would be a tele- 
printer or teletype? 

Mayor Morrison. To be frank, I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. One or the other, as far as you know ? 

Mayor Morrison. That is correct. 

I would like also to more specifically identify these two decisions 
on the slot-machine cases. In one case. Judge McCaleb rendered an 
opinion, that is the Supreme Court of Louisiana, in the Ricks case 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mayor Morrison. That a mint-vending machine is still a slot ma- 
chine because it is equipped to change over with a small amount of 
action, and that case was decided about a year and a half ago, and 
the case which helped us on the dead storage is the Schimpf case — 
that was about 2 years ago — which provided that we had the right to 
seize and destroy, even in dead storage, slot machines. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. You say you have some in dead storage 
now? 

Mayor Morrison. We don't know of any. 

Mr. Rice. At the police department? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes; we have over 500. I might point out to 
you : you may wonder why we still have them. We'd like to have 
them out because they are occupying a lot of space we need for records 
and storage of other kinds. We waited for a year to go by. We filed 
an injunction to dissolve. There were two actions. They sued us 
personally and they also got a restraining order against the city from 
breaking up the balance of the machines. One of the district court 
judges gave a restraining order. That is still in effect. Now, we 
have filed a rule to dissolve that restraining order, but the attorneys 



22 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

who represented the city, myself, personally, too, thought it would 
be better to let the year run on appeal that the other action had, namely, 
the damage suit had, and after the year had run and that damage suit 
was final, then we could go in and fix the injunction rule; that is to 
clear the injunction which still stands. As of this day, it still stands 
against me. I don't have the right to break those machines or destroy 
them or drop them in the river. 

Mr. Rice. When will that time expire, approximately ? 
Mayor Morrison. The year is over, now. It's been over 2 or 3 
months and we have filed a rule fixing it for trial. That is a question 
of getting the lawyers to go fix the rule on the injunction to dissolve it. 
Mr. Rice. To dissolve the inj unction ? 

Mayor Morrison. We have no doubt that it will be dissolved. 
The Chairman. You mean, Mr. Mayor, the damage suit against 
you and others is not decided by the supreme court? Is that what 
you call it in Louisiana ? 

Mayor Morrison. What actually happened, the Ricks case which is 

actually identical 

The Chairman. What court was it finally decided in? 
Mayor Morrison. In the district court. No appeal was taken ; it 
was in our favor. 

The Chairman. When you refer to the district court, that is the 
State district; is that right? 
Mayor Morrison. The court of first instance, in the State. 
The Chairman. So you are taking the position you want that to be 
res adjudicata or the determination of the issue in the injunction case, 
so you let the year — they had 1 year in which to appeal. Is that 
correct ? 

Mayor Morrison. That is correct. Now the Ricks case, which is 
exactly the same thing, exactly the same type of machine, was a crim- 
inal procedure and that pushed on through to the supreme court, and 
once the Ricks case was decided, then the people who were suing the 
city and enjoined the city, more or less became dormant. They had 
no further interest in their suit. We had to let the damage suit go 
the year to make that definitive. Now that that is definitive, we are 
now filing, or have filed, a rule to dissolve the injunction. That frees 
me completely. Then we can get rid of the 550 or the 560 machines 
we have out in the police warehouse. 

Mr. Rice. When that period exj^ires, then you intend to destroy the 
machines ? 

Mayor Morrison. Correct. 
Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Mr, Mayor, did I understand you correctly to say there 
were 2,000 pinball permits issued ? 

Mayor Morrison. That is correct. That is an average. We prob- 
ably go over that. I know better the income than I do the number 
of permits. The income runs around, a little over a hundred thousand 
dollars per year, and in some cases they get only a half-year permit. 
They beat us out of the other half year. I would assume from that 
that we have over 2,000. 

Mr. Klein. Does that mean there are 2,000 pinball machines or 
2,000 pinball operators ? 

Mayor Morrison. Two thousand pinball machines. There are quite 
a lot less operators. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 23 

Mr, Ki^iN. Did I also understand yon to say that in tlie last 5 
months there were only three arrests by the vice squad for pinball 
payoffs ? 

Maj'or MoRRTSON. That is correct. That is very unusual that 3'ou 
get any of those. 

Mr. K1.EIN. Were there any arrests by any other police squad? 
Mayor Morrison. That I can't answer, but I would say "No." If 
so, only a small number. Very seldom. These machines do not have 
an automatic pay-off. We don't license any with an automatic pay- 
off. That is the same as the slot machine. It is just a different device 
to automatically pay off. These machines, the way tliey look when 
they are inspected and given a permit, have no gambling para- 
phernalia that will pay off. It is strictly, then, a question of whether 
they register free games, whether the free games will be paid off at 
the counter, that is very hard to police, as you can well see. 
Mr. Klein. There have been only three arrests? 
Mayor Morrison. Yes. Very seldom there are any arrests. 
The Chairman. Mr. Mayor, in that connection, rumor around here 
is — and of course you can't go by rumor — that these one-ball machines, 
most of the operators pay off in cash when anybody wins. 

Mayor Morrison. That would be a likely conclusion that the one- 
ball machines, giving less amusement, w^ould probably lead to an 
arrangement whereby the players go over to the counter and get 
either money or merchandise for it. 

The Chairman. Well, do you think that is true or not ? 
Mayor Morrison. I think it is true. 

The Chairman. Well, is an effort being made to apprehend the 
cases where they are paying off in cash? Of course, that would be 
a violation of the State law, wouldn?t it? 

Mayor Morrison. It would be, yes. We have two men — of course 
Sergeant Weiser was attached to the mayoralty permit office check- 
ing on that himself for about 5 months, and we have made some raids 
and some arrests on it, but to be very frank with you, before the session 
of 1950, between '48 and '50, there was a law that, more or less, pro- 
hibited us from collecting the tax, $50 tax. There was a last sentence 
on the State law which, of course, provides for the tax and stated 
that no municipality or parish shall collect a similar tax. Now, 
,we went on and collected it anyway, mainly because by virtue of our 
critical financial condition, we couldn't afford to lose a hundred 
thousand dollars, and we collected the tax as best we could. It soon 
filtered down that they didn't really have to pay it and they could 
defeat us in court suits. During that period of time, as a matter 
of practicality, very little was done about the question of whether 
they did pay in money for the free games. Now that we have a 
specific legal authority, since August of this year, to collect the $50 
tax, it definitely is our desire to go all out to correct this practice. 
In other words, we have tolerated it because of the fact we got a 
hundred thousand dollar income from these pinball machines. Again 
I don't know how many would be the one-ball and how many would 
be the five-ball, but there were more critical things that were pushed 
than that. We did make arrests from time to time but during that 
period of 2 years when we didn't have legal authority to collect the 
tax we didn't do very much about it. 



24 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Klein. Has the attitude of the administration changed with 
respect to the situation, now ? Are you making a stronger effort to 
enforce that? 

Mayor Morrisox. Yes, we are ; because we have legal authority, now. 

Mr. Klein. You also have the need for the hundred thousand ? 

Mayor Morrison. We do, but we get — in other words, previous to 
1950 a suit could have been taken to make a man pay, and if he will go 
to court, we felt we would lose the suit, and that that would then take 
away all the income we weie getting from this source. This was dis- 
cussed with the commission counsel and that sort of idea was agreed 
upon at the time. 

The Chairman. Mayor Morrison, in general, as I understand your 
testimony, I feel that you and the police department made a substantial 
effort to eliminate organized gambling and criminality in the city of 
New Orleans, and that while you have made a substantial effort, there 
is still some crime that goes on, some bookmaking and, of course, some 
prostitution and some other types of crime ; that the fact that many of 
these people are continuing to operate in the adjoining parishes con- 
stitutes a continuing menace, that they are using efforts to move back 
into full-time operation in the city of New Orleans. Is that correct ? 

Mayor Morrison. That is correct. The fact that we have made 571 
arrests and convictions in 1950 states better than my own opinion the 
fact that we do have handbook operations from time to time and we 
do have violations, and we have violations for practically all of the 
offenses in New Orleans, for theft and for a great many of the other 
things. The harm is when you have violations and do nothing about it. 

The Chairman. Now, you have talked about the various companies 
that own pinball and slot machines, and you have said that some 
operated legal pinball machines in the city of New Orleans or in this 
parish, Orleans Parish, but that when they operated in the other par- 
ishes they operated regular slot machines. Is that correct ? 

Mayor Morrison. That is correct. 

The Chairman. But you said that these that operated both kinds 
constituted a small minority of the operations. 

Mayor Morrison. They do. 

The Chairman. Is there an association or something that all of these 
outfits belong to ? Wliat do you know about that ? 

Mayor Morrison. There is an association that they all belong to 
but I would like to point out it is not the kind of association that 
existed before 1946. It is a business association that you have for 
all types of business — a trade association. I mean the dues, as I under- 
stand, and this is only from my general knowledge, are the same that 
you would pay to belong to say a bar association, or a retail-grocers 
association or anything else. Previous to 1946 there was an associa- 
tion somewhat of a monopolistic kind that you either paid so much a 
week or you didn't operate, and whenever you use the word "associa- 
tion" sometimes people go back to the thought of this type of monopoly 
that was operated before. We give anybody that comes into the 
mayoralty permit office a permit. If they go out and operate pinballs 
without a permit we try to find them and make them pay for the 
permit or else seal their machines. So any kind of an association 
so-called that would rule out anybody just doesn't have any bearing. I 
mean it has no legs to stand on. I assume that is what you had in mind. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 25 

The Chairman. Yes. I noticed on the two or three I have seen 
around, there is a city permit and there is also some little thing that 
indicates they belong to some association. What is the name of that? 

Mr. Rice. Coin Machine Institute ? 

Mayor Morrison. I think you will find that about 65 or 70 percent 
of them belong to the trade association and that the balance do not 
belong. I only know that because I have made inquiries about it. 
In other words, you enjoy the same right to operate your machine 
when you pay the $50 whether you are a member of this trade associa- 
tion or not. That's the reason it doesn't really make any difference. 
As a matter of fact, unless we inquire, we don't know whether they 
are in it or not. 

Mr. Rice. You said that some time back it was operated along the 
lines of a monopoly. How did they operate that way? 

Mayor Morrison. Well, your dues in the association were so much a 
week, and if you didn't pay you didn't operate a pinball machine. 

Mr. Rice. How did they stop you? Suppose you set one up and 
didn't join? 

Mayor Morrison. They had other ways of harassing you. They'd 
come in at 11 o'clock at night and pull out your plugs. 

Mr. Rice. "Wlio is they ? 

Mayor Morrison. The police. Prior to 1946 they would go in and 
pull the plugs out of the music boxes or the pinball machines — electric 
plugs — and say "You are disturbing the peace." 

Mr. Rice. In other words, to use a police term, they'd "roust" them 
until they belonged to the association? 

Mayor Morrison. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. So that the association and the police were conniving or 
collaborating in forcing the operators or licensees to join the associa- 
tion? 

Mayor Morrison. That is correct. I would have to point out to you 
that during that period of time, 5 years from '41 to '46, 1 was in mili- 
tary service and I was across the way. This is not a personal state- 
ment of my own knowledge, but it is pretty generally known to be the 
case. 

Mr. Rice. About what were the dues that were required then, if 
you know, from each machine ? 

Mayor Morrison. I don't know. That would be highly specula- 
tive. But so many dollars per week — 2 or 3, I think. 

Mr. Rice. It was more than a dollar, you might say, for each 
machine ? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know whether there has been any substantial 
change in the number of one-balls or pin-balls, from those days to 
these days? 

Mayor Morrison. I really don't know. As a matter of fact, I have 
never made up any check on how many one-balls or five-balls they do 
have. I think that Sergeant Weiser could give that because he's 
actually been attached to that office for about 6 months. 

Mr. Rice. Now, you mentioned that in connection with the permit 
office, anyone applying could receive a permit. Would that be true 
of someone who had a lengthy ci-iminal record ? 

Mayor Morrison. Well, I would assume it would be true, because 
actually we have about four men in the permit office, total, and I don't 



26 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

think that we make any investigations, being very tn^ithf ill with you. 
I don't think we have a process whereby we investigate them. Of 
course, we have a continuing investigation of all types of people. 

Mr. Rice. So it would be very possible that a notorious hoodlum 
of the Bugsy Siegel type could very well obtain a permit? 

Mayor Morrison. I think probably what he would do would have 
somebody else obtain it for him, which I pointed out has been done 
in a lot of cases. They get a local resident— these people have their 
main business in Jefferson Parish — they will get a local resident, these 
six or eight companies I spoke to you about, who will front for them. 
That is our speculation that they front because of their prior associa- 
tion. They come in and get the permits. Let me say this to you, 
they allot a permit in spite of what we do, Mr. Rice, and we don't 
get the $50. Again, it is a question of being able to cover the whole 
city. Actually, they can be in the pinball business and never pay us 
the $50. We get 85 or 90 percent of them, perhaps. That means 
going from place to place 

Mr. Rice. Sneak operations, more or less? 

Mayor Morrison. Going place to place, and again that is three or 
four men making the rounds of all the barrooms and restaurants to 
see whether they have got their permits. 

Mr. Rice. When the permit is issued, is that issued to a particular 
machine in a particular location ? 

Mayor Morrison. It is issued to a particular machine by serial 
number, but not by location. I think the location is on there, but they 
have the right, as we now have it, to move them. 

Mr. Rice. So that they can switch the machines around from loca- 
tion to new location ? 

Mayor Morrison. They can do that. We have a recommendation 
from the permit director that we change our stamps and that we make 
them for specific locations. But that hasn't been done yet. Actually, 
until August, we really couldn't do very much about it except hope 
that they paid us. 

Mr. Rice. Do you find, under that proposition, that some of the 
machines are switched from the city to the adjacent parishes and 
back again ? 

Mayor Morrison. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that some of the machines in the city here 
have tickets on them, indicating that they were located out in the 
parish ? I have seen them myself. 

Mayor Morrison. I wouldn't understand why a man would bring a 
pinball machine in Jefferson Parish when he's got a slot machine up 
there. Obviously, a pinball is a slow process to get any real income, 
whereas the slot machine is much quicker. 

Mr. Rice. You are an advocate of getting it quicker, then ? 

Mayor Morrison. I am thinking of what the man in the restaurant 
would have — if he had slot machines he probably wouldn't have a pin- 
ball machine. But it is likely they could take them and move them 
around. We have no way of checking that very specifically. Again, 
I have to point out to you, actually, we keep coming back to this : we 
have a certain number of pepole we can use on all matters. We have 
a great shortage even for the basic things we have to do, and this con- 
tinual proposition of having 20 or 25 men in the vice squad is really a 
drain on the jjolice department, that we wouldn't normally have to 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 27 

have if we didn't luive this situation of being surrounded by wide-open 
gambling. In addition to that, take our narcotic squad, for instance, 
during this period, during the race-track season, we have seven or 
eight men in the narcotic squad, we have switched them over to hand- 
books at various times to "beef" up the force. We have taken the 
headquarters personnel. Chief Scheuering and Chief Durel, directors 
of precincts, and we have sent them out on all-out raid operations. 

Mr. Rice. Along that line 3'ou may be able to help me out on some- 
thing I don't quite understand. You have uientioned that you have a 
innited personnel on the vice squad. Is it the particular province of 
the vice squad to check into these matters, or a particular squad to 
check into the pinballs or one-balls ? 

Mayor Morrison. No, it isn't. As a matter of fact, first of all, the 
precinct is responsible for the law^ enforcement in the precinct, but 
most of-these precinct people are, in general, patroling or various other 
things that are their day-to-day job. To do any kind of all-out 
enforcement job, you have got to have people operating directly under 
the superintendent, hooking into any precinct and make those cases 
and it has to be almost a specialty. That is what the vice squad is. On 
the question of checking out the pinball operations, our total activity 
there is principally to get the $50 permit on a legal machine. Now, 
every now and then we do have an arrest, as I indicated. I didn't 
know it until I read the report that we had some arrests for the ma- 
chines paying olf. That is, more or less, a haphazard proposition 
where a policeman does know of it and does make the arrest. We 
don't have anybody assigned to that. We have two policemen assigned 
mainl}' to sealing machines wdiich do not have the tax permit on 
them. 

And they, also, if they find a machine that is paying off at the 
counter 

Mr. Rice. Is paying off — they make the arrest at the time ? 

Mayor Morrison. Right. Now, paying off at the counter : I have 
to point out to you that catching a man paying off at the counter is 
a very difficult thing. If he happens to know the policeman, he is 
just not going to do it wdiile he is there. 

Mr. Rice. What are the instructions as regards the patrolman on 
the beat? The average man in uniform who might stumble upon a 
situation where he saw it paying off, if he happened to stop in some 
place? 

^Nlayor Morrison. It is his duty to make the arrest. 

Mr.' Rice. Do they follow that out ? Do you know ? 

Mayor Morrison. Well, in some cases they do do that. But, again, 
a man in uniform will probably never catch anybody doing this. I 
think the only man that would catch him would be a man in plain 
clothes, which would be the vice squad or some special group that 
would not be in uniform. In fact, very seldom we ever make even a 
handbook raid in uniform. That is a tip-off a mile away. You find 
nothing when you get there. 

The Chairman. I be^eve you say you are 240 short in your police 
force in national average ? 

Mayor Morrison. About 250. 

The Chairman. About 250. Is that the lack of budget? 

68958 — 51 — pt. 8 3 



28 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mayor Morrison. Senator, in 1948 we had 2-cent sales tax which 
produced around $10,000,000 a year. That was cut by a State act to 1 
cent, and by virtue of that operation, we lost $5,000,000 in income, and 
we, of course, have gotten additional income in the meantime to make 
up for part of it, but we are still about $2,500,000 short. With our 
city growing in every direction, and our costs going up, our income has 
gone down. We are one of the only cities in the country that has had 
that experience, so we have not expanded our police department or 
our fire department or a lot of our other departments. We are just 
getting by as best we can, and anytime we get hold of a little extra 
money, we usually pick up 25 more policemen, authorize 25 more 
policemen in our budget because we so badly need them. 

The Chairman. How does the telephone company cooperate with 
you? You seem to have had more difficulty with them on reinstall- 
ments ? 

Mayor Morrison. Ostensibly, the telephone company cooperates 
100 percent. The officials of the company are willing to do anything 
we request them to do. They were not willing on this proposition of 
turning over the toll charges, but ordinarily they are willing to do 
anything for us that Ave ask but again they have a big organization of 
thousands of employees, and the reinstallation of telephones, I am 
sure, is not under the direction of the management. I think that is 
just one of those ways and means that gamblers have of getting things 
done. They usually can find a way somewhere. 

The Chairman. Mayor, liow extensive would you say the telephone 
bookie is in the operations in New Orleans today ? I know they have 
gotten no more horse parlors on the front streets, but have they gotten 
upstairs on the second floors and third floors? 

Mayor Morrison. That is usually where we find them. 

The Chairman. Do you have congregations of people in the rooms 
betting on races by virtue of information they get over the telephone? 

Mayor Morrison. When we make raids those are the situations we 
find. But to answer you specifically as of this time, I would say that 
the situation is better than it has been, so far, for a number of reasons. 
First of all, we have had the State come in since December, and I think 
the fear that not only they can be raided by the city, but they can be 
raided by the State police ; the fact that your committee is here and 
was coming and has been coming, I think, and has had investigators 
here, has helped us considerably. It all depends on how bold they 
want to get. Eight while we are sitting here, they can be opening up 
5 or 10 handbooks, and sooner, or later, we might catch them, but 
it is like running a traffic light. You may run a traffic light every 
day for a week and never get caught and finally you do get caught. 
So I would say, specifically, it is, and again I give you the opinion 
of the superintendent, it is probably better than it has ever been, as 
of this moment. 

The Chairman. I notice. Mayor, that you had something to say 
about the citizens crime commission. I noticed an article about it in 
the paper this morning. I don't know the personnel of the crime 
commission or how far along it has gotten, but I do want to join with 
you in saying that a good, privately supported crime commission 
composed of representatives and soimd citizens, with a staff of ex- 
perts, as we all know, can be of tremendous assistance, not only in 
keeping the spotlight of public opinion on things that go wrong, but 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 29 

also in backing up honest and good law-enforcement officers, which 
is just as important. And I do hope the commission — I know in 
Chicago and Miami, and many other places, they have done very good 
work, and it seems to me that tliat is a very good step in the right 
direction. 

Mayor Morrison. Yes. sir. The gentleman who is promoting that 
is the chairman of the police advisory board, wliich is the citizen board 
for the ])olice department. 

The CiiAiRMAN. Well. I knoAv nothing about the personnel in it, 
but the general idea is good. 

Mayor Morrison. He has support of the chamber of commerce, so 
I think the project will get under way. 

The Chairman. Mayor, do you have two types of peo])le here? Do 
you have the gambling activities supported by out-of-State interests 
like you testilied about the Costello-Lansky group? Do you have 
another grouj) that is local and nonsupported? Is there any differ- 
entiation made by the police department or the administration as to 
going after one or the other type? 

Mayor Morrison. There is no differentiation except we think that 
the interstate gambler is more serious, because he has more means and 
he has more ways and means — he has more financial means — more 
ways and means of combating you. but from our standpoint, they are 
both violations of the law, and if we know of a handbook, if we get 
a complaint of handbook, it doesn't make any difference who you 
are ; you are going to get arrested and you are going to get tried and 
convicted. There is that difference. We don't find any of the syndi- 
cate operations in Xew Orleans. They have gotten out of New Or- 
leans completely. I don't know of any, rather. 

The Chairman. You don't think any of these bookies or any of 
these coin machines — I mean pinball machines — are syndicate opera- 
tions ? 

Mayor Morrison. With a few exceptions which I mentioned in my 
report, which would be less than a hundred machines of 2,000 have 
that tie-in. That is merely trying to be very accurate, but generally 
speaking, they have very few interests in the city limits. But, of 
course, they have decided for themselves to concentrate more generally 
on the outskirts. 

The Chairman. Does the city of New Orleans take in all of Orleans 
Parish? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is it the same? 

]Mayor Morrison. It is synonymous : one and the same. As a mat- 
ter of fact, the Commission Council for the City of New Orleans is 
the government for the Parish of Orleans. 

The Chairman. But you have a separate sheriff? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes; we have. About $2,000,000 of our money 
in our city budget; $16,500,000 goes to paying what we call parochial 
officers, or parish officers, such as the sheriff, the district attorney, the 
district courts, the assessors, clerks of court, and so on. 

The Chairman. I take it the sheriff is rather a civil officer rather 
than an enforcement officer? 

Mayor Morrison. There is a civil sheriff, who is the organ of the 
civil courts elected by the people, and there is the criminal sheriff, 
who is the organ of the criminal court and who is the criminal sheriff 



30 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

of Parish of Orleans, elected, and he also is the custodian of the 
parish jail. 

The Chairmax, This Daily Sports News, who owns that opera- 
tion ? Do you know ? 

Mayor Morrisox. The Daily Sports News? 

The Chairman. I think we have some testimony later on about it. 

Mayor Morrison. I don't recall, Senator Kefauver, who does own 
it. I know they print this Daily Racing Form and also what they 
call a Danny M. It is a form sheet. 

The Chairman. Is their operation within the law? I mean is it 
legal? 

Mayor Morrison. Yes ; I suppose it is. 

The Chairman. I suppose the Daily Sports News does furnish the 
bookies both in and out of Orleans Parish with their information? 

Mayor Morrison, With their sheets, yes. Most of our raids we find 
here are not the open type. They use what they call the Danny M, 
which is a small sheet which you don't normally see hanging on the 
wall, and they just have it on the table and take the bets. 

The Chairman. Doesn't JNIr. William Molasky. of the Pioneer News 
of St. Louis, have some interest in the Daily Sports News here? 

Mayor Morrison. I can't answer from my personal knowledge 
w^hether he has or not. 

The Chairman. Or the Louisiana News Co.; what is that? 

Maj'or Morrison. Louisiana News Co., I understand, has a building 
at Clio and Carondelet. They distribute these same sheets, but, on 
the other hand, they have a big magazine business. 

The Chairman. Maybe it is that company Mr. Molasky may have 
an interest in. 

Mayor Morrison, They have 40 or 50 different magazines, like 
Literary Digest and other magazines, they distribute. They have a 
rather large building they opened up about a year ago at that loca- 
tion. 

The Chairman. Have you found any evidence of interstate con- 
trol or operation in any prostitution, in the city of New Orleans? 

Mayor Morrison. No"; I don't think we have. Of course, again, the 
superintendent could testify better on that than I could. We 
also have a prostitution committee headed by Reverend Jamiason in 
the Vieux Cari-e. and he has developed some facts which might indi- 
cate they bring the women in from the outside and also send them from 
here out. But that would be the only facts we know on the subject 
of interstate connections. 

The Chairman. Of course, your chief would know better, but do 
you know whether your investigations show whether that is true or 
not, whether they are engaging in that sort of traffic? 

Mayor Morrison. The investigations show there is some of that 
traffic — that they are bringing people from across the State line, and 
likewise sending some out. That is our investigation. But there 
has been a real detailed job done on that by the Vieux Carre committee, 
working with these police. 

The Chairman, i believe that is all. 

Well, thank you very much, Mayor Morrison. We will be in touch 
with you from time to time while we are here. 

Mayor Morrison. I just got a note here on this question of the long- 
distance calls I might like to dictate in the report. Clarifying Mr. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 31 

Bice's question refjardino- our request to the tele])lione company for 
records of lon^-distance calls from the Baiter Buildino- to Florida, 
I would like to i)oint out that the ])olice department did request these 
records from the Southern Bell Telephone & Telegraph Co. The 
telephone company, while admittintr that such calls were placed, re- 
fused to turn over to the ]iolice department records of these calls. 
They said a court order would be necessary. The police department 
then discussed* with the district attorney — not the city attorney, the 
district attorney — the question of a court order. The district attor- 
ney's office advised Superintendent Scheuering in view of the fact 
there was no evidence of any law violations at this address, the tele- 
phone compan}^ address, a court order for seizure of these records could 
not be requested. The entire transaction is covered in the documents 
which I have filed with the committee. 

That is all I have, sir. 

The CHAiR:5rAx. All right. Thank you very much, ]Mr. Mayor. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Now, let's g;et the witnesses in, see Avho is here, 
what records we have and see what arrangements we can make as to 
testimony. 

Mr. Rice, which witnesses did you ask to bring certain records who 
have not brought them in? 

Mr. EiCE. Edward Allen. 

The Chairman. Is Mr. Allen represented by any attorney here? 

The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the testimony 3^ou will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Allen. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD M. ALLEN, NEW ORELEANS. LA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY WARREN 0. COLEMAN, ATORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, 
LA. 

Mr. CoLEaiAN, Mr. Allen first wants to read an objection. 

The Chairman. We are calling Mr. Allen only for a limited 
purpose. 

I do want the record to show, as it will show, that pursuant to a 
resolution adopted by the committee, in regular meeting in Washing- 
ton, that the chairman of the committee is authorized to swear wit- 
nesses and take their sworn testimony and conduct this hearing by a 
subcommittee of one to be appointed by him, and that the chairman 
has appointed himself as a subcommittee of one to hold this hearing. 

Mr. Coleman. I would like to read this to reserve his rights. It 
is just a short statement. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Coleman. This is his statement : 

After consulting counsel I demand the attendance of a legal quorum of this 
committee before proceeding further. Should it be here ruled I am not entitled 
to this relief, or that the member <pr members present now are sufficient to consti- 
tute a quorum and compel me to jjroceed I do so under protest and reserve all 
my rights in the premises. 

The Chairman. All right. The objection is noted, and the objec- 
tion, on that ground, is overruled because the full committee has, as it 



32 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

is authorized to under the law. delegated the power to the chairman 
to appoint a subcommittee of one. 

Now, the only thing we wanted you now for, Mr. Allen, is for the 
limited purpose of seeing what records you have brought in and have 
they been turned over to some investigators of the staff? 

(Witness produces small piece of paper.) 

Mr. CoLEMAN", You did have something you were going to turn 
over — part of your records. 

Mr. Ai.LEN. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. What is your name, sir ? 

Mr. Allen. Edward Allen. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you live? 

Mr. Allen. 2615 Canal. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, are you appearing here in response to a su})pena ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have that subpena ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Will you read that subpena, sir. 

The Chairman. Let the subpena, or a copy of it, be filed — it speaks 
for itself — as a part of the record. The original subpena is here, and 
let it be, by incorporation, made exhibit No. 4, and a part of this 
witness' testimony. 

(The document referred to was made a part of the record as Exhibit 
No. 4, and appears in the appendix on p. 426.) 

Mr. Rice. Does it not direct you to appear here today and bring 
with you books, records, supporting documents, relating to your 
income and disbursements from January 1, 1944, to date; all records 
relating to assets and/or interest in property, either real, personal, 
or mixed, or legal entities during the aforesaid period; and copies of 
Federal incom.e-tax returns during the aforesaid period? 

Now, sir, do you have those records? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. On advice of counsel I respectfully decline 
to ansAver the question on the ground that it may tend to incriminate 
me under the laws of the Stare of Louisiana and of the United States 
Government, especially the lottery, mail statutes, the United States 
conspiracy laws, and income-tax laws. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, let the record indicate that the witness is read- 
ing from a document. May I see the document ? [Document handed 
to Mr. Rice.] 

Now then, sir, I take it that your answer is that you refuse to pro- 
duce any of these documents? 

Mr. Coleman. There is one document. Why don't you pi-oduce it? 

(Document produced by witness.) 

Mr. Coleman. That is his net worth. 

Mr. Allen. That is my net worth. [Document to Mr. Rice.] 

Mr. Rice. Now, we have received a document which purports to 
be a statement of the net worth of Edward M. Allen. Is that correct? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Let him read what he has here. It is very short. 
This is the only record he has brought in, Mr. Coleman? 

Mr. Coleman. That is all. 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 33 

The following is my total net worth : 

I have two buildings, one valued at $10,000 and another valued at $10,900. I 
have some furniture and fixtures valued at $1,.500. 

In cheeking accounts. Edward M. Allen, there is a balance of $194.63; in the 
name of E. M. Allen, agent, $662.43; and in the name of Mrs. Laura Allen, a 
savings account, $1,758.87. 

I also have in notes receivable $10,000. 

(Document handed to JNIr. Rice.) 

Mr. Rice. Where is that checking account that vou mentioned, Mr. 
Allen? 

Mr. Allen. At the Whitney Bank. 

Mr. Rice. In the name of Edward M. Allen? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where is the savings account? 

Mr. Allen. In the same bank. 

(The document above referred to is identified as Exhibit No. 5.) 

Mr. Rice. Where are the notes receivable? 

Mr. Allen. In the bank. 

Mr. Rice. What bank? 

Mr. Allen. The Whitney National. 

Mr. Rice. In a safety deposit box there? 

Mr. Allen. No. The bank has them. They collect them for me. 

Mr. Rice. They are holding them ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a safety deposit box ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where is that ? 

Mr. Allen. At the same bank. 

Mr. Rice. In what name? 

Mr. Allen. "Edward M. Allen" and "Laura Allen." 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you have copies of your Federal income-tax 
returns ? 

Mr. Allen. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You are called upon to produce them. Why don't you 
have them ? 

Mr. Allen. I stand on my same rights as I read before. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, you are refusing to produce ydur tax returns 
because they may incriminate you ? 

Mr. Allen. That is right. 

Mr, Rice. Is that the correct answer ? 

Mr. Allen. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. What w- ould incriminate you about a Federal tax return ? 

Mr. Allen. The same thing. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. You refuse to answer the question ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you have in mind a particular offense which 
might incriminate you ? 

Mr. Allen. I still refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. You refuse to answer that question ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Rice, How long ago 

The Chairman. Well, I think the Chair has to direct you to answer 
that question, Mr. Allen. 

Mr. Allen. Well, I stand on my rights. 



34 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, do yoii refuse to follow the direction of the 
Chair 'i 

Mr. Allen. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Does the oft'ense ^Yhich you have in mind involve yourself 
alone or others ? 

Mr. Allen. I still stand on my rights to refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. May I suggest to the Chair to direct the witness to answer 
that question? 

The Chairman. Yes. I direct you to answer that question. 

Mr. Allen. I still refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Mr. Coleman, let me state this 

Mr. Coleman. He gave the offenses on that slip. Where is that 
slip? 

Mr. Rice. We are entitled to have the answer from the witness, Mr. 
Counsel. 

The Chairman. The slip has been read into the record. As I under- 
stand it, he objects to it on the ground it might incriminate him on 
some State or Federal law, and particularly on some lottery laws. 

Mr. Allen. That is right. 

The Chairman. Let me speak with Mr. Coleman and the witness 
a minute : 

The committee has no desire to — it is still a moot question. There 
is some question as to whether the same rules exactly apply 
to a congressional committee as they do to a grand jury or to an 
appearance in court. In vieW' of the fact that the testimony given 
here under the statute cannot be repeated and used — at least the words 
spoken against the witness — we have gone on the assumption that 
substantially the same rule does apply, except that under the decisions 
of the courts it does not apply to something that might or would in- 
criminate him of a State offense. 

Mr. Coleman. I am very familiar with that. 

The Chairman. You are familiar with the rules. 

Mr. Coleman. I am familiar with that. 

The Chairman. I would think that the better way to proceed is 
if he would bring these records in and we could go over them, one by 
one, ask him t6 introduce them, and then if you have some objection 
to some particular record which might incriminate him of a Federal 
offense, then I will rule with you on it. But certainly a general blanket 
refusal to produce any records, real-estate transactions 

Mr. Coleman. No. He has produced all those things. 

The Chairman. Things that go back to 1944, and what not. That 
is a rather fantastic interpretation. 

Mr. Coleman. He has produced all his net worth. 

The Chairman. I .know, but that is just a little statement he has 
brought in. 

Anyway, proceed, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, in connection with your refusal to produce 
copies of your tax returns : Do you have in mind that your 
refusal is predicated upon possible incrimination in connection with 
a Federal or State offense ? 

Mr. Allen. With the Federal. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a particular offense in mind ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 35 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. EiCE. Did that transaction that you have in mind occur within 
the last 10 years? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KiCE. Within the last 5 years? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Within the hist 3 years? 

]\Ir. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Two years ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Rice. One year? 

Mr. Allen. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. How about 7 years? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about 8 years ? 

JSIr. Allen. I don't just remember offhand. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, does this violation which you have in mind 
include others ? 

Mv. Allen. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Rice. You refuse to answer that ? 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, I will have to direct you to answer that. 

Mr, Allen. I will refuse on the same gTounds. 

Mr. Rice. Are there any special circumstances which would make 
the answer to that question incriminating? 

Mr. Allen. I refuse to answ^er. 

The Chairman. Let's not get into the details of the matter. The 
only thing we want to know is whether he is going to bring in some 
records or whether he isn't. Do you have some records about prop- 
erty that you own ? 

Mr. Allen, If I brought in all records, would it incriminate me ? 

The Chairman. I say that what we would do, if you bring them 
in, you introduce them, one by one, and if you or your attorney want 
to make an objection to it we will consider it at that point. 

JNIr. Coleman. May I say one word ? 

The Chairman. In view of your present attitude, Mr, Allen and 
Mr, Coleman, there is no use in going on with the matter. You have 
utterly failed, and contemptuously failed, to answer this subpena. 

Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So you will come back in the morning. You will 
remain under subpena and come back in the morning at 9 :30, and we 
will see what, if any, records you have then. If you don't bring records, 
at least in some manner try to comply with the intent of this sub- 
pena and help this committee with its inquiry, then we will have no 
alternative but to recommend action against you. I think that is all 
we need to say. Mr. Coleman, if you will have your client back at 
9 :'30 in the morning, please. 
(Witness excused.) 



36 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

TESTIMONY OF CARLOS MARCELLO. MARRERO, LA., ACCOMPANIED 
BY WILLIAM C. ORCHARD, ESQ., AND G. WRAY GILL, ESQ., 
ATTORNEYS, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

Mr. Orchard. At the outset, Your Honor, I am going to make the 
objection that there is no quorum present of this committee and we 
object to proceeding any further. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Orchard, your objection has been 
made and it will be overruled. 

Mr. Orchard. And we are proceeding under protest. I am going 
to make the further statement to the court that my client is going to 
refuse to produce any documents under a snbpena or refuse to testify 
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate him. or as not pointing 
to the subject of this inquiry. 

Mr. Gill. And that his records are personal to himself; that they 
are not corporate records or statements. They are only his personal 
records or those involved possibly with his brother. 

The Chairman. All right, we note your objection, gentlemen. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, w^ill you state your name for the record? 

Mr. Marcetxo. Carlos Marcello. 

The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Marcello. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you live. Mr. Marcello? 

Mr. Marcello. 800 Barataria Boulevard. 

Mr. Rice. In what community ? 

Mr. Marcello. Marrero. 

The Chairman. I didn't understand the town or the city you live in. 

Mr. Marcello. jNlarrero. 

Mr. Gill. M-a-r-r-e-r-o : Marrero. 

Mr. Rice. Are you appearing here in response to a subpena, Mr. 
Marcello? 

Mr. Marcello. Yes [prompted by counsel]. 

Mr. Chairman. Of coui^e, we are glad to have you here, gentlemen, 
but let's not prompt the witness on his answers. You have a seat, 
Mr. Gill. 

Mr. Rice. Now^, sir, do you have a copy of that subpena with you ? 

Mr. Marcello. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let the subpena be copied into the record and made 
an exhibit at this point. The subpena for Carlos Marcello, wdiich has 
been duly served. 

(The subpena for Carlos Marcello is identified as Exhibit No. 6, and 
appears in the appendix on p. 426.) 

Mr. Rice. Noav, in part the subpena says — 

to appear and brins with you books, records and supporting documents relating 
to your income and disbursements since January 1, 1944, to date, all records 
relating to assets and/or interest in property, either real, personal, or mixed ; 
or interest in legal entities during the aforesaid period ; and copies of Federal 
income-tax returns during the aforesaid period. 

Do you have those copies ? 

Mr. Orchard. Your Honor. I submit the subpena speaks for itself 
and is the best evidence of itself. 

The Chairman. All right. Counsel was reading the subpena. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 37 

Mr. Rick. Do J'ou have those documents ^ 

Mr. Makcello. With due respect to the committee, I am going to 
refuse to answer any and all questions other than my name and place 
of residence on the ground that the answer might tend to incriminate 
me and I refuse to produce any documents, records, or paper on the 
ground that they might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Let the record indicate that the witness is reading from 
a document. 

May I ask you where you were born ? 

The Chairman. Let's find out who wrote the document? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the cpiestion on the ground that 
it might incriminate me. 

Tlie Chairman. The Chair orders you to answer the question. You 
are ordered to answer the question. Just say you either will or you 
decline; one or the other. 

Mr. Marcello. I don't understand. 

The Chairman. Well, you refuse to answer but I order you to 
answer. Will you follow the order of the Chair? 

INIr. Rice. Will the reporter repeat the question please? 

The reporter read the last question. 

The Chairman. Just say you will answer it or you won't answer 
it : one or the other. 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground it 
might intend to criminate me. 

The Chairman. And you refuse to follow the direction of the 
Chair in ordering you an answer it "Yes" or "No" ? I have ordered 
you to answer the question. Will you follow the direction of the 
Chair? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground it 
might intend to criminate me. 

Tlie Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, do you feel that the answer would incriminate 
you in connection with a Federal or State offense ? 

Mr. Marcello. Not being an attorney I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Rice. Do you feel that the answer would incriminate you of a 
Federal or a State offense? Please answer the c^uestion. 

Tlie Chairman. He said he didn't know. 

Mr. Marcello. Not being an attorney I wouldn't know, 

Mr. Rice. Then, you do not have an offense in mind ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it maA' tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. You then refuse to answer whether or not you have a 
particular offense in mind ? 

JNIr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Will the Chair direct the witness to answer the question? 

The Chairman. The Chair directs j^ou to answer that question. 

Mr. Counsel, of course the procedure is that when he refuses to 
answer, the technicality is that it is my dut}' if I think he should 
answer, then I shall order him to answer. 

Mr. Orchard. Yes. sir. 

The Chairman. In all these matters, unless I indicate to the con- 
trary, if it can be understood, where he refuses to answer that the 
Chair has ordered him to answer and that where he refuses to follow 



38 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

the direction of the Chair, then, we will get along faster. Will that 
be nnderstood by you ? 

Mr. Orchard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will it be understood by you, Mr. Marcello? 

Mr. Orchard. You understand it? 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you understand that ? 

Mr. Marcello. No, sir ; I don't. 

The Chairman. Well, then we had better just go along as we are 
going. 

Mr. Klein. Maybe his counsel can clear it up for him, 

(Witness confers with his counsel.) 

The Chairman. Does he understand the matter ? 

Mr. Orchard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is, where you lefused to answer, unless I indi- 
cate to the contrary, you will assume that the chairman of the com- 
mittee lias ordered yon to answer and that you refuse to follow the 
order of the Chair. Do you understand that ? 

Mr. Marcello, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gill. Would you permit me to make a statement? In fairness 
to the witness before the court, this man, his name has been in the 
newspapers. I mean continuously from day to day. sir. His name 
was mentioned by Mayor Morrison this morning, and ai)parently this 
man is more or less considered, according to the news])apers, as one 
of the prime factors to be investigated here ; and we wish to say at the 
outset, with all due respect for the committee, that the objection that 
we made would like to extend to every question propounded to this 
witness as though it were repeated, to avoid the necessity of repetition, 
and at the outset that his refusal is not leased upon any disrespect of the 
committee, but one question leading from one to another might not of 
itself be a matter that would tend to incriminate him, but might 
form a link in a chain of circumstances or evidence. We make that 
statement. 

The Chairman. In other words, Mr. Gill, where he says "I refuse 
to answer" you want it understood for the record that his refusal to 
answer is on the grounds which he has read here — that he thinks it 
might tend to incriminate him. 

Mr. GiLE. That is correct, sir, not only of itself, but it will form a 
link in a chain. We make that statement to Your Honor so 

The Chairman. So that he doesn't go through the routine every 
time of saying, "I refuse to answer on the ground that it might incrim- 
inate me." 

Mr. Gill. That is correct, sir, and also that the general answer at 
the incipiency of the questioning will be understood by Your Honor 
as applying to every question, more or less, that will be asked him, so 
Your Honors will not consider he is in contempt, if you should hold 
him in contempt more than once and not a multiplicity of counts. 

The Chairman. Well, of course, I think we should make it clear, sir, 
that the statute authorizes a sentence of 1 year for each contempt. 

Mr. Gill. I appreciate that, sir. 

The Chairman. It is in the discretion of the judge who hears the 
case, in the event there is a conviction, to say whether they run con- 
secutively or concurrently. So if they should find Mr. Marcello 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 39 

guilty and find liim guilty of 50 contempts, it would be in the discre- 
tion of the judge whether it would be 1 year or whether it would be 50 
years. 

Mr. Gill. I am not assuming at the outset that you will cite him for 
contempt at all, Senator, but should a contempt citation be issued or 
suggested in your sincere judgment, we are stating at the outset that 
we feel that having expressed himself at the beginning of the hearing 
that it is only fair that further questioning not be had of him at this 
time, or at any other time in connection with the subject matter at 
hand, particularly because it doesn't seem like it would be fair to 
continue to ask him questions merely for the purpose of getting the 
same answer that you know now, more or less, will be repeated, and 
thereby adding up multiplicity of counts to the defendant over which 
he has no control. 

The Chairman. Well, sir, I appreciate your point of view, but there 
are many matters we will today and tomorroAv want to ask Mr. 
INIarcello about. Maybe his counsel and he might change his mind 
about answering some of them. 

(to ahead, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, is there an indictment pending against you ? 

JSIr. ISIarcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground it may 
intend to criminate me. 

The Chairmax. It is understood here the Chair has ordered him 
to answer and he refuses to follow^ the orders of the Chair. 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Orchard. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. Does the transaction which you refuse to answer in the 
previous questions, involve yourself or others? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did the transaction about which you have in mind occur 
Vv-ithin the past year? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground it 
might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did it occur 10 years ago ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground it 
might intend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are there any special circumstances which you would like 
to supply which would furnish you a reason for refusing to answer? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground? that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a criminal record? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Xow, sir, you take the position of having a criminal 
record would incriminate you? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Where were you born ? 

Mr. ]VIarcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. How old are you? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it misfht tend to incriminate me. 



40 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 

Mr. Rice. How much education do you have? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any education? 

Mr, Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rtce. Are you married? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are you a citizen ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are you an alien ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. You may inquire, Senator. 

The Chairman. Were you arrested in 1929 as an accessory before 
and after the fact on an assault and robbery of the Canal Bank at 
Algiers, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. That was in 1929? Do you think that something 
which happened in 1929 might incriminate you? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Were you arrested and given from 9 to 14 years 
on robbery, assault, and robbery, in 1930? 

Mr. ]\Iarcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, may I call your attention to the fact 
that if he did get convicted he is already incriminated because of that 
offense, wasn't he ? 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please, might I ask Your Honor a ques- 
tion? I don't want to seem out of line. This man has been indicted 
in the public press, time and time again, beginning with Mr. Drew 
Pearson's accounts which appeared in screaming headlines all over 
the Nation, and apparently based, in my humble opinion, upon no 
proof whatsoever. Might I ask your committee, sir, as to what you 
gentlemen would like to know from this witness, and if we can be 
apprised of that fact it may be that he would answer. As it is, this 
man is coming before you gentlemen, trained investigators have pre- 
pared material for you gentlemen, and you i^entlemen are experts at 
the investigation that you are conducting, and I don't mean that in any 
suave manner, I mean it sincerely. This man may answer a question 
unwittingly that may form a link in a chain of interstate connection 
or circumstances that may cause him to be charged in the parish to- 
morrow, not as the result of the testimony, but if a person's name is 
used that person could be a witness, and the district attorney's office is 
represented here in tlie courtroom today. Doubtless, tlie district at- 
torney's office is represented here from Jefferson, as well as Orleans, 
where he has whatever operations he might have, and, inasmuch as 
that is true, if this man were to make an admission concerning any 
gambling operation, if he has gambling operations 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 41 

The Chairmax. Mr. Gill, your point is that you want us to state 
for the record some of the thintrs that we had in mind asking him 
about. Is that what you would like to know? 

Mr. Giix. Yes, sir; some of the things you'd like to know. You 
have practiced law, and I know very well, and you would want to 
know, I am sure, if the case were yours, just what your client was 
called upon to say. What you wanted to know 

The Chairman. Well, I think that is 

Mr. Gill. Because I practice criminal law and i know that even 
though they couldn't use the testimony of this court, and anything 
that was said here, if the name of Jim Jones or some other name was 
mentioned as a person or witness, the district attorney can send for 
that man and send this man to jail. 

The Chairman. Let's just say that we will put in the record, and 
furnish Mr. Gill and Mr. Marcello, quite a number of pages of Mr. 
Kiley's investigative report pertaining to Mr. Marcello, which will be 
made a part of the record at this point and that these are the things 
that we have in mind asking him about. 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Let me have a clip. 

Let's let this be as exhibit No. 7 to the testimony of Mr. Marcello, 
and this purports to give his criminal record, questions about his in- 
terests in certain operations, certain corporations, where he was born, 
and what he has been into. Do you have a copy that you can give to 
h"im? Will you get these same pages and give Mr. Gill the same 
pages ? I want Mr. Gill to have a copy of that. 

(Exhibit No. 7 appears in the appendix on p. 427.) 

]\fr. Klein. Kiley's report. 

The Chairman. That being the case, that will give you an opportu- 
nity of looking it over and seeing it. 

Mr. Kiley, will you see that these same pages are furnished to Mr. 
Gill? 

Mr. Kiley. Yes. 

The Chairman. I wanted to ask this: The report we have here 
shows that Mr. Marcello had stock or an interest in some corporations. 
I ask you if you did have stock or if you do have any part of the 
ownership of certain corporations? 

Mr. Orchard. All right. 

The Chairman. What is your answer? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground it 
might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you now or have you ever had interest in the 
Dixie Coin Machine Co. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. The Jeiferson Music Co.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. The B. Robertson Distributing Co. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. The Beverly Club? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it miirht tend to incriminate me. 



42 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Fo^arty's News Service? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. New Southport ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Tlie Chairman. Louisiana Mint Co. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Nick's Oaks, in Jefferson Parish. La.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Tlie Chairman. Chib Phiza, in Kenner, La.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Tregle's Dreamland Barroom, Jefferson Parish, 
La.? 

Mr. Marceixo. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Tlie Chairman. Louisiana Quick Freeze & Storage Co., Morgan 
City, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Sea Shrimp Co., Patterson, La.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. The Billionaire's Club, Huey Long Avenue ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. The Bank Gambling Club. Gretna, La.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Avenue Bar, Gretna, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Al's Bar or Phil's Cafe at Harvey, La. ? 

Mr. ]\Iarcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Seamen's Cafe, Harvey, La.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Ivy's Place, Harvey, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Midway Inn, Marrero, La. ? 

Mr. ]\Iarcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Wildswood Tavern ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Foret's Rest, Jefferson Parish, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Gay Paree, Westwego, La.? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 43 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer tlie question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Chib Regent, Gretna, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on tlie ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairmax. A taxicab company at Algiers, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
ma}' tend to incriminate me. 

The CiiAiR3iAx. Shangri La, at Gretna, La.? 

]Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The CiiAiRMAx. Do you hold a mortgage on Gretna Seafood, Gret- 
na, La., in the amount of $12,000 or any other amount? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The CiiAiRMAX. Nelson's Roof Terrace in Gretna, La. ? 

Mr. ]\L\RCELL0. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

Tlie Chairmax^. Texas Tavern, Harvey, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairmax. Did I ask you whether you received any income 
from B. Robertson Distributing Co., Baronne Street, New Orleans, La ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairmax'. We understand the reason you give for refusing 
to answer. 

Do you have any interests or receive any income from handbooks 
and wire service from Jefferson Parish ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
might tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairmax. Do you own any property on Roman Street in 
Gretna, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairmax. Do you have any interests in Texas Tavern, Har- 
vey, La. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairmax. All right, if you want to ask him any questioiis. 

Mr. Rice. Yes; have you engaged in any business enterprises w^tli 
G. AVray Gill? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Joseph Poretto ? 

Mv. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are you engaged in an oil enterprise in the Pickens Field 
with Joseph Poretto? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you have any interest in a slot-machine-parts 
factory about to be built in Louisiana ? 

68958—51 — pt. 8 4 



44 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Marcello, I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know Jake Jockey Pinello ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer tlie question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Are you engaged in any business enterprise with 
Jockey Pinello ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Are you in the slot-machine business with Jockey 
Pinello? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know Beauregard Miller? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know Frank Clancy ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Let me ask, have you ever heard of any of these 
people ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Have you ever heard of any of these companies or 
businesses that I asked you about ? 

Mr. INIarcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever read about them in the newspapers ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been outside of the State of 
Louisiana ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have an interest in the wire-service operation 
of Poretto in 1946 ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an interest in the wire-service business now ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an interest in the Club Forrest ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. As I understand the situation, then, Mr. All 

right, Mr, Rice. 

Mr. Rice, Have you ever heard of the Unione Siciliane ? 

Mr, Marcello, I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the Mafia ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me, 

Mr, Rice, Did you attend a meeting at the Black Diamond Night 
Club in 1947? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COJVIMERCE 45 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

^Ir. Rice. Have you attended a meeting at the Wiklswood Tavern 
with Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr! Rice. At the Black Diamond Night Chib did you attend a 
meeting on May 5, 1947, with the following people: 

Mr. Orchard. I am going to suggest if counsel is going to testify 
let him be sworn. He is testifying who was at a meeting that he 
probably don't have any knowledge of. 

The Chair3ian. Well, if he says he wasn't at the meeting, why, then 
that's that. But counsel has got to ask questions. The offender here, 
I think, I am sorry to say, Mr. Orchard, is Mr. Marcello. 

Mr. Orchard. I would like my objection entered. 

The Chairman. All right, you have your objection in the record. 

Mr. Rice. Did you attend a meeting at the Black Diamond Night 
Club on May 5, 1947, with Henry Muller? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Joseph Capro? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
ii mav tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. M. J. Pecorn ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Charles Ricks? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Tom Rizzuto? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Vmcent, Joseph, Anthony, Jake, and Nick Marcello? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Any of the following, and permit me to ask you these 
before you answer : G. J. Robes, Frank Lobardino, Mel Melancon, Nick 
Grif azzi, Alexander Cardona, Felix Valdez, Frank P. Coppola, George 
Loveland, John Moreno, Jr., Joseph Hebert, Webster Blakely, Percy 
Wilson, Thomas Norton Johnson, or Salvatore J. Marcianti? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Frank Costello? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
ii may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Joseph Almerico ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have a shooting scrap with Joseph Almerico ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. In front of the Hadacol Club at 1314 Canal Street? 

Mr. Gill. If it please Your Honor, these questions, while they might 
defame and degrade the witness, I don't believe are pertinent to the 



46 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

scope of the inquiry, for which the resolution was passed. I object 
to that form of questioning, may it please Your Honor. 

The Chairman. Well, having read the memoranda relative to this 
inquiry and knowing something of the alleged connections with some 
of these people with what we are inquiring about, I am afraid I will 
have to say that they are pertinent. 

Mr. Gill. Your Honor will note the objection. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gill. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Orchard. I note an objection, too. 

Mr. EiCE. Do you deal with Al Robmson in business ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any business association with Johnny Ber- 
tuccia of the Dixie Coin Co., Gulf port. Miss. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an interest in the National Finance Co. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the National Finance Co. of 
Biloxi, Miss.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you liave an interest in Jerome's Gymnasium? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Jerome Comforto? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any money invested in any legitimate enter- 
prises ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Were you born in Tunis, Africa? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you served time in Louisiana State penitentiary? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr, Rice. Have you ever been convicted of a narcotic violation? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been convicted for armed robbery? 

Mr. Marcello. I i-efuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you any interest in a liquor store? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Sam Carollo? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Anthony Carollo? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 47 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the <i|;r()un(l that 
it may tend to incrhninate nie. 

Mr". Rice. Did you provide an automobile to Sam Carollo for his 
return from California? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

JNIr. Rice. Do you know Salvatore Vittali ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr! Rice. Have you entertained him at dinner at the restaurant 
of Vic Longo ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr". Rice. At that time, did you entertain, also, Anthony Saragusa 
and Vic Longo? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Now. sir; do you have a telephone? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do qou know Phil Kastel ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest in the Beverly Club? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr". Rice. Do you know Roy Palopinta? 

Mr. Marcello." I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr! Rice. Do you know Louis Battalamente ? 

Mr. Marcello! I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

]Mr! Rice. Did you ever make a statement that you had an interest 
of between 40 and" 50 thousand dollars in the Beverly Club? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it mav tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever make a statement that you had bought the 
new Southport Club from Vic Trapani at a cost "of between 160,000 
or 165,000? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr! Rice. Did you ever say that you ever had a thousand dollars 
invested in the La-Quick Freeze in Morgan City. La.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr! Rice. Did you ever say that you owned the building but not 
the business at 1410 Monroe Street, Gretna, La.? 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please, in fairness of the witness, the 
gentleman is asking questions I think it should be said to whom and 
where, and not just say "Did you ever say ?" He should ask him who, 
where, and when it was said. 

The Chairman. Well, in 1948. 

Mr. Rice. On or about October 1948, did you make any of those 
statements to anyone? 



48 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Makcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr^ EicE. Did you say that you owned outright Phil's Cafe, 508 
Destrehan Street. Harvey ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you own your home ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Where is your home ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Haven't you previously answered where 3'ou live? 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please 

Mr. Rice. Have you answered where you live ? 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please, if the gentleman knows that, I 
submit it should not be asked this witness. 

The Chairman. Well. I can't understand why 

INIr. Rice. It is a discrepancy ; he says he 

Mr. Gill. For a count of contempt. Several questions have been 
asked him twice, or several times, about his arrests. 

Mr. Rice. We are entitled to second refusal. 

Mr. Gill. I ask. Your Honor, to note my objection. 

The Chairman. Yes ; we do. We note it. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir. have you answered where you live ? 

Mr. Marcello. 800 Barataria Boulevard. 

Mr. Rice. Do you own that home ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question. It might tend to 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you say that you held the mortgage on a house of 
Joseph Macalussa ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you hold a mortgage on the house of Joseph Maca- 
lussa? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Orchard. Your Honor. I think the question should be when 
and where and not just a fishing expedition, just going all over the city 
of New Orleans and parishes. 

The Chairman. Apparently, if he had owned a mortgage on some- 
body's home he'd be pretty likely to know about it, even a big-business 
man, I suppose he is one. He must know what it is about because he 
thinks it's going to incriminate him to tell. 

Mr. Orchard. I would like my objection to be noted that it is not 
pertinent. 

The Chairman. All right. We note the objection. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had a mortgage on Shangri La, 400 Monroe 
Street, Gretna? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Gill. I'd like. Your Honor, to note that question has already 
been asked, too. 

The Chairman. Did I ask that question? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 49 

Mr. Gill. Someone did, I don't remember who. 

The Chairman. I think I asked him if he had an interest in it. 

Mr. Orchard. Yes; I think it was a different form. 

Mr. Rice. We understand it is a mortgage. 

Mr. Orchard. I think tlie Senator asked did he have an interest 
and you asked did he have a mortgage. That is what I understand 
your question to be now. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Orchard. Has lie answered that question, Mr. Reporter? 

Mr. Rice. We understand that the mortgage is now paid. 

The Reporter. No; lie hasn't answered. 

Mr. Orchard. Answer that last question. 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever loaned the Gretna Seafood Co. several 
thousand dollars ? 

Mr. IMarcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you held a mortgage on Nelson's Roof Terrace, at 
Gretna ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have 3'OU ever been connected with the Southern News 
Service ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. I invite your attention to the fact that the Southern News 
Service ceased doing business on or about January 1, 1947. Do you 
still refuse to answer? 

Mr. Marcello. (Nods "Yes.") 

Mr. Orchard. Say "Yes." 

Mr. Marcello. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest in a used-car business ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you financially assisted Mickey Gardelli? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. In 1948, did you make a statement that you had a one- 
third interest in the Dixie Coin Machine Co. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you have the following telephones, listed to 
you ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question 

INIr. Orchard. Wait. wait. Let him finish. 

Mr. Rice. Algiers 5777. Is that your telephone ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Algiers 2171 ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Chestnut 7122 ? 



50 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question. It niij^ht tend to 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Tyler 3307? 

Mr. MJARCELLO. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Counsel, what is the purpose of asking 
about the telephone numbers? Do you have records of telephone 
conversations with people in interstate commerce? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. We have toll calls made from those telephones to 
certain individuals. 

Mr. Orchard. I would like to inquire of counsel if there is any 
record of who made those toll calls; whether this defendant made 
them? 

The Chairman. I w^as asking counsel if he was going to bring out 
who they were to or some of the people they were to or from. 

Mr. Orchard. Anybody can make a toll call from a number. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not recently make a ])erson-to-person telephone 
call to Harry Brooks, associate of Mickey Cohen ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not call Harry Brooks at the time he was in Texas 
recently ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not recently make a person-to-person telephone 
call to Joe Savela in Dallas, Tex.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you recently make a person-to-person telephone call 
to Vincent Valloni, in Houston, Tex. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Vincent Valloni ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know tliat Vincent Valloni was murdered? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know that Vincent Valloni was murdered sub- 
sequent to your telephone call? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know that the murderer of Vincent Valloni said 
that he killed him on instructions of Peter Duca? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. In a Mafia-type killing? 

Mr. Marceli>o. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you recently made a person-to-person call to Sam 
Garras ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 51 

The Chairman. Wliere is Mr. Garras and who is ]u\ so we can 
connect tliat ? 

Mr. Rice. Is not Garras — did you not call Garras in Dallas, Tex.? 

Mr. Mahcei.i.o. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it nuiy tend to incriminate nie. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't Garras the brother of Dave Garras, the Chicago 
hoodlum ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

]Mr. Orchard. Senator, I think it is going far afield to call a man a 
hoodlum or nobody knows wdio he is. There is no record, or 

The Chairman. I think we have a considerable record, but we will 
just say ''alleged." 

Mr. Orchard. I think counsel is trying to have a Roman field day 
for tlie l)enefit of the city of New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. I think your client can probably clear up quite a few of 
these matters for us if he will explain the nature of the telephone 
calls and what his business transactions with these individuals were. 
We are perfectly willing to hear his explanation. 

The Chairman. That is all right. Apparently he is not going into 
explanation of that. 

Mr. Gill. Of course, mav it please Your Honor, counsel is assuming 
the defendant Knows all about that and can give an explanation. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Marcello, are 3^ou a member of the Mafia? 

The Chairman. He answered that. 

Mr. Marcell. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Orchard. That has been asked him before. 

The Chairman. He answered that. 

Mr. Orchard. He's been asked that. 

Mr. Gill. It hasn't been asked in those words, ma}' it please Your 
Honor, but it has been asked and this would be another count. 

The Chairman. All right, do you make any contributions to any 
political campaigns? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it ma}^ tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever give a bribe to a law-enforcement 
officer ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Have you been making about 11 or 12 thousand 
dollars out of the Jefferson Music Co. each year? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. About 15 or 16 out of the New Southport Inn? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Now, I see no reason to go on with a whole lot of 
this, unless you have something else? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

The Chairman. How about the Jefferson Music Co. ? Does it pay 
you about $25,000 a year? 



52 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Orchard. Gentlemen, I am going to object unless I know the 
source of those findings. If they are from the income-tax returji, I 
think it is prohibited under the statute to divulge. 

The Chairman. I was asking him whether he made anything out of 
the Jefferson Music Co. per year. 

Mr, Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you have any other questions? Let's get this 
over with. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not in September 1946 drive an automobile bear- 
ing Michigan license plates which were issued to John Minaudo, of 
Detroit? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. What is the purpose of that John Minaudo i 

Mr. Rice. John Minaudo is a notorious hoodlum. 

The Chairman. John Minaudo is somebody we have been investi- 
gating in Detroit. 

Mr. Rice. That is correct. 

The Chairman. What was the license number ? Ask him what the 
license number was. 

Mr. Rice. I don't believe we have that license, Senator; but we do 
have the license number of the car he was seen driving, Oklahoma 
plates, 61-38, in 1948. This license was issued December 2, 1941, to 
William Stevens Mullins, of Cherokee, Okla., by transfer from the 
State of Mississippi. 

The Chairman. Ask him if he was driving that car. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever drive that car ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. I think we have asked enough. 

In looking over this part of the report we were going to put in 
the record, I find that the latter part of it has some names about 
which I really don't have information, some few, so only the part 
of the report which is titled "Citizenship Status, Criminal Record" 
and "Brief Curricula of Information," consisting of 2i/2 pages, will 
be put into the record, and I will ask Mr. Kiley to see Mr. Gill, that 
you read it, and also he can tell you some of the other reasons why 
we have been anxious to talk with Mr. Marcello. 

Mr. Orchard. Of course. Senator, I would like it to be understood, 
of course, any part of that report that is incorporated in the record 
is not to be considered the testimony of this witness. 

The Chairman. No; that is right. But I mean Mr. Gill asked 
for some reasons why the questions were asked, and that part of the 
report gives the criminal record, and also certain other parts, which 
will be put in upon the suggestion of Mr. Gill. 

Mr. Gill. No; I am not asking anything be put in the record. I 
just wanted to see it, Senator. 

The Chairman. Well, I misunderstood. 

Mr. Gill. In fact, I object to anything going in the record other 
than the questions and answers of this defendant, this witness. 

The Chairman. I had understood you wanted something in the 
record to show the reasons why we have asked these questions. 

Mr. Gill. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 53 

The Chairman. So, anyway, the committee will order- 



Mr, Gill. It was my thought at that time, Senator, we would have 
an adjournment. 

The Chairman. The bottom part of pages 2, 3, and the top of page 
4 are relevant. The committee will state further, to you. Counsel, that 
the committee has had quite an extensive investigation in which Mr. 
Marcello has played a very important part, in the State of Louisiana. 
The committee has information and reason to believe that he has had 
gambling, narcotics, and other kinds of operations with not only 
criminal characters in the State of Louisiana but in other parts of 
the United States; that he owns and has interest in quite a number 
of illegitimate businesses, illegal businesses, and probably some legal 
businesses; that he was born in Tunis, Africa, I believe in 19i(J, 
of Sicilian parents; that he came here in October 1910, that he 
lias been engaged in many violations of law with various and sundry 
people from many parts of the United States; that he has had many 
meetings with criminal characters from other parts of the United 
States; investments in the Beverly Club, another club out here, I 
think, the Forrest Club, a racing news service, and many of the other 
organizations that counsel has asked about ; that Mr. Marcello, accord- 
ing to the investigative reports, is one of the principal criminals in 
the United States today. 

Mr. Orchard. Well, counsel will 

The Chairman. You were asking why we wanted to ask these ques- 
tions, what the relevancy was; some I have told you, sir. 

Mr. Orchard. Counsel for Mr. Marcello, with due deference to the 
Senator, strenuously objects to his statement as being unfair, as being 
based upon an investigation which obviously may be hearsay, rumor, 
and without any basis in fact or in law, and I would like my objection 
to be noted in the record. 

The Chairman. Your objection will be noted. 

Mr. Gill. And in fairness to the defendant, may it please Your 
Honor, we would ask that that statement be stricken from the record 
and that the pages that Your Honor has there not be permitted to be 
introduced in the record. When I asked for them I wanted them as 
a point of information that we might converse with Mr. Marcello, and 
I thought an adjournment would then be had. Your Honor having 
proceeded, they are worthless to us. You have proceeded. 

The Chairman. I didn't know. I thought you wanted the informa- 
tion about the relevancy of the questions. 

Mr. Orchard. I think we ought to do this. At least we ought to get 
them, look at them, and talk with his brothers, come back here tomor- 
row and we might be able to proceed a little better. 

The Chairman. I will tell you what we will do — of course, his crim- 
inal record is a matter of public information; that about where he has 
served and what he has done. Beginning at bottom of page 2 

Mr. Gill. He was pardoned. 

Mr. Orchard. He was pardoned, and nothing was said about that 
part of it. 

The Chairman. To the bottom of page 4 will be made a part of the 
record. The rest of it Mr. Kiley will go over with you, gentleman, 
and give you a general idea about what we have. 

Another reason we have been wanting to inquire of Mr. Marcello : 
It appears from the record that he is not a naturalized citizen ; he is 



54 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

here as an alien; and that with all of his convictions, how he has 
managed not to be deported 

Mr. Gill. He was pardoned, I believe, Your Honor. 

The Chairman. He was pardoned by Gov. O. K. Allen on one occa- 
sion. He made an application I think to the President of the United 
States for pardon on narcotics charge which was denied in 1948. 

Mr. Gill. That is correct. 

The Chairman. The record is long, the connections are bad, the 
implications according to our report are most sinister, and we wanted 
to find out among other things wdiat was the trouble Avith our nautrali- 
zation and immigration laws that a man who is ajiparently having such 
a detrimental effect to law enforcement and to decency in the com- 
munity how he can continue to stay here. 

Mr. Orchard. Senator, we are still going to renew our objections to 
your remarks. 

The Chairman, If I have to go into the matter further, if you want 
Mr. Marcello to give any testimony, you may come in the morning. 

Mr. Kiley, will you inform Mr. Gill and these gentlemen of some 
more details. Except for those three pages, the statement Avill be 
withdrawn. That is all now, gentlemen. 

Mr. Orchard. Subject to our objection now. 

The Chairman. Mv. Marcello, you will remain under subpena sub- 
ject to the further call of the committee. It must be very manifest 
that with all the vigor at the subcommittee's command, we will recom- 
mend that your contemptuous action before this committee be dealt 
with according to law. 

Mr. Marcello. Tliank you, sir. 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please, may I state for the record, that 
from the questions asked this witness, particularly with reference to 
his alien status, it is very obvious as to wdiy the witness, who is 
untutored, doesn't have a good education at all, would refuse to swap 
intellect with the gentlemen of the committee. That is why I asked 
at the outset for such information as you may have. I say in all fair- 
ness, the repeated questions to this witness, after he stated at the out- 
set that he wouldn't answer, should not in all fairness form more than 
the basis for one contempt, may it please Your Honor. 

The Chairman. Well, now, I tell you, Mr. Gill, in looking over the 
records of what we have here in the file of the business transactions 
of this witness, he may be untutored, he may not be formally educated, 
but he is certainly got his fingers in a lot of businesses in very astute 
sorts of ways. He is pretty well able to take care of himself. 
Besides 

Mr. Orchard. Are his brothers to come back tomorrow with Mr. 
Trapani ? 

The Chairman. He has two very eminent counsel representing him, 
I am sure. 

Mr. Rice. You gentlemen represent the brothers, too ? 

Mr. Orchard. Yes, sir. We urge no objection to that last remark. 

Mr. Gill. There was a man recently died who is in the banana 
business here; he lost his job when he was a young man because he 
couldn't read or write, but he was in a school in Canada. He lost his 
job, but the man left about $90,000,000. Sometimes not being able to 
read and write is a good asset. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 55 

The Chairman. You will be here with the brothers tomorrow. 

Mr. Gill. You waut them in the morning? 

The Chairman. At 9 : 30 in the morning. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. We have done very poorly l)y the other lawyers 
here. Now, let's see who is here and who has already brought records 
in and we will see if we can make some arrangements about when to 
come back. 

Who represents Mr. Kastel? 

Mr. James O'Conner, Jr. I do. 

The Chairman. Mr. O'Conner, how would you like, let's say at 8 
o'clock tonight? Are you tied up tonight? 

Mr. O'Conner. I am at your convenience, sir. 

The Chairman. We are going to have to have a night session. 

Mr. O'Conner. I am at your convenience. 

The Chairman, Suppose we say we will have your client at 8 
o'clock tonight. Is that all right? 

Mr. O'Conner. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

Mr. O'Conner. jSIay I ask the Senator something, or counsel? 

The Chairman. We will have a recess. 

(Bench conference.) 

The Chairman. Who else is here ? 

Mr. Levy. Gus Levy, representing Maurice I, Roufa. 

The Chairman. Mr. Roufa, you represent? 

Mr. Rice. He has turned them over to us. 

Mr. Levy. He has turned them over to one of the investigators. I 
want to say one thing. You have asked for income-tax returns from 
1946, I believe it was, and he has only been able to produce 1948 and 
1949. The other records are in St. Louis. He moved here 214 years 
ago. His auditors up there probably 

J\Ir. Rice. We will see if we can get along on that. 

The Chairman. We will see if we can get along on what we have, 
provided you are willing to bring in the others. 

Mr. Levy. Could you make it a little earlier than that ? 

The Chairman. Suppose j^ou come back right after recess. 

We will recess until 2 : 15. Suppose you come back at 2 : 15. 

All right, Mr. Talbot. 

Mr. Talbot. I would like to have an hour, please, too. 

The Chairman. Whom do you represent, Mr. Talbot ? 

Mr. Talbot. Mr. Clancy and Mr. Paul Cassagne. 

The Chairman. How about the records of these gentlemen? 

Mr. Talbot. I will state that the record situation is somewhat com- 
plicated, and I would like to present it when we take the stand in an 
orderly manner. I am very well aware of the constitutional innova- 
tions, and I would like to make my return when I am called on the 
stand, or my witnesses are called. 

The Chairman. Suppose you and your clients come in at 9 : 30 in 
the morning. 

Mr. Talbot. Thank you. Will it be possible to hear them both so 
I won't be tied up indefinitely? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir ; when we hear one we will hear the other. 

Mr. Dowling, whom do you represent ? 



56 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DowLiNG. Sheriff Rowley of St. Bernard, and the criminal 
sheriff of Orleans Parish, Grosch, John J. Grosch. 

The Chairman. Would 10 : 30 in the morning be all right with you ? 

Mr. DowLiNG. Yes, sir. I had another matter at 3 o'clock tomorrow 
evening before the Civil Service Commission here. 

The Chairman. We will endeavor to take it up then. 

Mr. Generellt. Mr. Chairman, my name is Generelly, Edward A. 
I represent Edwin Fauria. 

Mr. Rice. What is the status of his records ? Have you submitted 
them ? 

Mr. Generelly. W^e have them here. We haven't turned tliem 
over to anybody. We are ready to do so. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Ahern. will you see Mr. Generelly? 
If you will be back at 3 o'clock — suppose we say after lunch, after the 
recess tomorrow afternoon. 

Mr. Generelly. That is for Fauria. Tliat is all right. 

The Chairman. That will be say after recess. Friday, if that is all 
right. 

Mr. R. A. DowLiNG. Will the chairman hear me on Sheriff Grosch? 

The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Dowling. 

Mr. Dowling There is something on tomorrow. Sheriff Grosch is 
the custodian of the jail and is the official executioner of the parish of 
Orleans, there is to be an execution tomorrow noon and he has to be in 
prison in that case. There is a man named Simpson being executed 
for murder. 

The Chairman. All right, sir; can you come in tonight? 

Mr. Dowling. We can come in tonight ; yes. 

The Chairman. Then, tonight at 8 or 8 : 30. 

Mr. Weysham. I am Alcide Weysham ; I represent Vernile Cava- 
lier. He doesn't have any records. 

The Chairman. You represent whom? 

Mr. Weysham. Cavalier. 

The Chatkvian. Where is Mr. Cavalier from ? 

Mr. Weysham. He is from New Orleans. 

The Chairman. He doesn't have any records ? 

Mr. Weysham. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Why doesn't he have any records at all ? 

Mr. Weysham. He wasn't asked to bring any. 

Mr. Rice. There are no records required of him. 

The Chairman. Do you want to come in tonight? 

Mr. Weysham. Yes, sir, what time ? 

Mr. Rice. We won't use him until tomorrow. 

The Chairman. I expect j^ou had better come tomorrow afternoon. 

Mr. Weysham. What time. Senator? 

The Chairman. Two o'clock will be all right. 

Do we have any other counsel ? 

Yes, lady? 

Miss Lewis. Miss Lewis is my name. 

The Chairman. Yes, Miss Lewis ? 

Miss Lewis. Will you give us a chance about 4 o'clock tomorrow eve- 
ning to come here and speak? 

The Chairman. Miss Lewis, I don't know what you want to speak 
about, but suppose I assign somebody of the staff to talk with you 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 57 

about the matter 3'oii M'ant to talk about, then we will del ermine that 
after you have talked with 

Mr. Mills, will 3^ou talk with this good lady? Will you make an 
engagement to talk with Mr. Mills? 

The Chairmax. The conunittee will stand in recess until 2 : 30. 

(Whereupon at 1 : t20 the hearing was recessed until 2 : 30 p. m.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(The mai-shal called the three Mills brothers and Frank Muller, 
missing witnesses in the investigation.) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

I am advised by the marshal that the missing witnesses Henry Mills, 
Arthur Mills, Frank Mills, Osman Litolff, and Henry Muller have 
been called again and they are still not present. 

Now, Mr. Rice, can we see whom we are going to have this after- 
noon and let the other witnesses go. 

Mr. Levy. Mr. Roufa was supposed to be called at 2 : 30. 

The Chairman. Yes, that's right, 

Mr. EicE. We would like to have witnesses Warren Moity, J. J. 
Fogarty, Joseph Poretto, Roufa, Jimmy Moran, and Reverend Daw- 
son remain this afternoon, and arrangements have previously been 
made for witnesses Kastel and Grosch to appear this evening. 

The Chairman. All right. Well, all other witnesses besides those 
whose names have been read can go and come back at 9 : 30 in the 
morning. 

Now, do we have any other witnesses with any connections with 
records? Do you know whether they have brought them or not? 

Mr. Rice. I think it would probably be more proper to take them 
as they come. 

The Chairman. They will be taken as they come. Who is our 
first witness this afternoon ? 

Mr. Rice. Warren James Moity. 

The Chairman. Now, we told somebody to be here at 2 : 30. 

Mr. Levt. I understood Mr. Roufa would be called right after 
lunch. His testimony is very short. 

The Chairman. I thinli in 30 minutes we can be to him. 

Mr. Levy. Except I was told right after lunch; he will be called 
right after lunch, that's why I came back in such a hurry. 

The Chairman. Do you mind waiting ? 

Mr. LE^-^. Well, I'llhave to. 

TESTIMONY OF WARREN JAMES MOITY, NEW IBERIA, LA. 

Mr. Rice. Have you stated your name for the record? 

yir. Moity. My name is Warren James Moity. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help joii God? 

Mr! Moity. 1 do. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Moity, where do you live ? 

Mr. Moity. I live at New Iberia, La., in Iberia Parish. 

Mr. Rice. Have you been living there some time, Mr. Moity ? 

Mr. Moity. I have stayed there all my life. 



58 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. How old are you, Mr. Moity ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Twenty-eight. 

The Chairman. Just a young fellow. 

Mr. Rice. Now, going back to the spring of 1949, will you tell us, 
Mr. Moity, w^hat happened to you, what business you entered into i 

Mr. Moity. I was engaged in the real estate and general insurance 
business there at New Iberia. After running for mayor of the city 
of New Iberia, in which I was a defeated candidate, I had several 
friends of mine who did come to me and tell me of a handicap they 
were in, and when I asked what that handicap was, they told me 
they were in the coin-machine business, better known as slot machines, 
jukeboxes, and things of that nature. They were informed that they 
could put their machines out but they had to pay a shake-down to 
the sheriff, Gilbert Ozenne, and Howard LaBauve, who is the city 
marshal of the sixth ward in Iberia Parish. 

Mr. EiCE. All right, sir. Now, then, what did you do? 

Mr. Moity. I first talked to various friends of mine whom I thought 
I could get the straight dope from, and discussed it with various 
citizens who were fighting slot machines and other forms of gambling 
in the section. I then came to New Orleans to seek assistance from 
Mayor Morrison, and I was referred to Mayor Morrison's assistant, 
Ray Scheuering. 

Mr. Rice. What type of assistance were you looking for, Mr. Moity? 

Mr. Moity. I was looking for the type of assistance to secure neces- 
sary law enforcement to stop gambling, stop the shake-down from 
gambling, and have the law enforced. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Well, you were in New Iberia. Why did you 
come to New Orleans for that ? 

Mr. Moity. I came to New Orleans when radio talks were unsuc- 
cessful, when you could not get the authorities at New Iberia or 
anywhere in the parish to act. When the heat was put on they all 
went fishing. And after going to various law-enforcement officers, 
including the sheriff and the city marshal, who refused to act for 
the reason that they were protecting the gamblers. 

The Chairman. Did you go to see them personally, Mr. Moity ? 

Mr. Moity. I sure did, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Moity. I received no assistance. I tried to get the local news- 
paper there to carry a few articles and the only way I got them 
was to pay for it at political rates, which, as you all may be acquainted 
with, are out of this world. Then they wouldn't even take that 
toward the last. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now, coming back to your trip here; 
what happened here ? Did you get help, or what ? 

Mr. Moity. No, sir ; Mr. Scheuering referred me to Mr. Lopez, who 
is at the head of the FBI. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Moity. Mr. Lopez telling me that was out of his jurisdiction, 
I went to Washington 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Moity, To give a report when I heard of this Kefauver com- 
mittee, and immediately upon going to Washington I gave testimony 
to Mr. Kiley and Mr. Robinson, after my life had been threatened 
several times if I would do so; but regardless, I went ahead and did 



ORGAXIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 59 

that. And I — well — told the officials there at Iberia, and after threats 
had been friven over the telephone, and one threat by a deputy sheriff, 
that if they decided, they would kill me, or throw me in jail that would 
be all rio-ht with me, but by death would be the only way that I would 
stop, and I even went as far as to go into the slot-machine business 
myself. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now, going into the slot-machine busi- 
ness 

The Chairman. Before you get to that, who threatened you? 

Mr. MoiTY. I was threatened approximately nine times — no, not 
approximately. I was threatened nine times. One time by Deputy 
Sheriff Charley Reed who is also an employee of the Texas Co., and 
when I recognized his voice he then tried to turn it into a joke. Now, 
I was notified tliat the sheriff's son-in-law, Camille Sliman, was going 
to put me out of circulation, but up to now I am still breathing pretty 
healthy. 

The Chairman. Yes, we see. 

Mr. MoiTY. I have been working on this for approximately 2 years, 
now, and I might mention that JNIarshal LaBauve, after he, himself, 
put an article in the paper taking slot machines and all forms of 
gambling out of circulation because it wasn^ doing juvenile delin- 
quency no good. After the shake-down money started coming in, 
he then, he himself, gave them permission to put the slot machines and 
other forms of gambling right back into operation. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now, let's go back to the time that you 
entered into the business. Tell us how, when you decided to go into 
the slot-machine business, how you went about doing it, what you did, 
whom you got in touch with, and what happened ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, when I went into the slot-machine business 

Mr. Rice. When was that ? 

Mr. MoiTT. That was approximately July or August, 2 years ago, 
or a j^ear and a half ago. 

Mr. Rice. Of 1949 ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, what happened? How did you do that? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, I told a business partner, Compton LaBauve, 
who is a jeweler there in New Iberia, that I would like to go in the 
slot-machine business. 

Mr. Rice. Yes? 

Mr. JNIoiTY. He then got in touch — in fact, William Webster got 
ahold of me, who is a slot-machine operator in Mariana, Fla. 

Mr. Rice. How did you get in touch with William Webster? 

Mr. MoiTY. He got in touch with me. 

Mr. Rice. Who put him in touch with you ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Fletcher Blaplit, F. A. B. Distributing Co. 

Mr. Rice. Who is he? 

Mr. MoiTY. A distributor of phonographs here in the city of New 
Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. Did you let him know you were interested in getting in 
the slot-machine business ? 

Mr. MoiTY. No, sir ; I let Compton LaBauve, of New Iberia, know it. 

Mr. Rice. You let Compton LaBauve know you wanted to get in 
the business? 

6S958 — 51 — pt. S 5 



60 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MoiTY, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. The first thing you knew you were contacted by Webster, 
of where ? 

Mr. MoiTY. William Webster, of Mariana, Fla. 

Mr. Rice. What did Webster tell you ? What was his proposition ? 

Mr. MoiTT. Webster told me all I would have to do was front for 
the macliines ; I would receive 25 percent. 

Mr. Rice. Did he tell 3^ou he was in the slot-machine business? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where? 

Mr. MoiTY. In Mariana, Fla. 

Mr. Rice. He came over here, then ? 

Mr. MoiTY. That was because the heat was on there and they had 
everything closed up. He lost his sheriff from down there, so they 
say. 

Mr. Rice. They chased him out of Florida and he appeared here. 

Mr. MoiTY, They chased him out of Florida after he had spent 
a considerable amount of money to elect this sheriff. He was un- 
successful, and he had to pay the price. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir; what was his proposition to you here? 

Mr. MoiTY. He gave me 25 percent of the take — of the profits, 
rather — and furnished the machines. 

Mr. Rice. Now, where did the machines come from ? 

Mr. MoiTY. They came from Mariana, Fla. 

Mr. Rice. He brought them over with him ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

Mr. MoiTY. They were shipped by a van line, however. He didn't 
carry tliem here. They came in from some van line. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

Mr. MoiTY. And I received the machines. And there was an agree- 
ment that he would take 50 percent and give Compton LaBauve and 
myself each 25 percent. 

Mr. Rice. LaBauve, what job does he have? 

Mr. MoiTY. He is a jeweler. Compton LaBauve I am speaking of 
now is a jeweler at New Iberia. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Now, does he have a close relative? 

Mr. ISIoiTY. He has a brother who is the city marshal there, Howard 
P. LaBauve. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now, you are in business witli Mr. Web- 
ster of ]\Iariana. What did you do, put machines out in locations ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir. I immediately went out to secure locations. 
Didn't take me long to learn I wasn't going to get many good ones 
because the sheriff's son-in-law got those. 

Mr. Rice. What is his name ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Camille Sliman. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

Mr. MoiTY. And Edward Elias, who is the brother-in-law of Mar- 
shal Howard P. LaBauve, had the rest of them. 

j\Ir. Rice. How many machines did you get out ? 

Mr. MoiTY. I got approximately 40 machines. 

Mr. Rice. And during the time you had those machines, what was 
the results of the operation? Was it successful? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 61 

Mr. MoiTY. AVell, I'll tell you wliat liai)pened : The firet move 
Marshal LaBaiive called me in his office to (/ixe me the third degree. 
Now, I might add that I supported Marshal LaBauve when he ran 
for city marshal, Avhen he took out the machines and he was going to 
do the right thing. Well, when I learned Marshal LaBauve had 
changed liis mind when the cash came around, I said nothing. I knew 
there was but one way to straighten it out and that was to secure 
enough evidence. 

Mv. KiCE. I don't understand you. Do you indicate that Marshal 
LaBauve told you to get out of business or pay liim off, or what? 

Mr. MoiTY. That is it, exactly. Not if I wanted. He told me he was 
going to crush every machine I had unless I paid the money. 

Mr. Rice. Did he mention any specific amounts he was to be paid? 

Mr. ]\IoiTY. Yes, sir ; it amounts to $76 per machine per year. 

Mr. Rice. And that was what he wanted ? 

Mr. MoiTY. That is what he wanted. Now, of that $76 per year, 
that is to be divided between Howard P. LaBauve, the city marshal, 
and Sheriff Gilbert Ozenne. 

Mr. Rice. Did he tell you that ? 

Mr. MoiTY. That is exactly right. But he did not have the guts to 
collect it himself. He has a man to collect it by the name of Amar 
Rodrigue, who also sent me word they were going to put me out of 
business. 

Mr. Rice. Suppose you didn't pay this money, what would happen 
to you ? 

Mr. JSIoiTY. Nothing did happen, but they tried to threaten me 
that I'd get killed or they'd give my family bodily harm, and they'd 
go to the locations 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Did you pay the money? 

Mr. MoiTY. I paid three payments. 

Mr. Rice. To whom ? 

Mr. MoiTY. I paid them to Amar Rodrigue. 

Mr. Rice. And in what amounts? 

Mr. MoiTY. At $50 per month. 

Mr. Rice. For how many machines? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, that was 

Mr. Rice. For the entire operation ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir ; that was for the entire operation. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. What happened to that enterprise? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, sir. when I wouldn't give no money to nobody, 
not even to Webster — in fact, there wasn't no money to be made there ; 
it took everything that the machines took in due to the fact that we 
did have sorry locations. It took everything the machines took in to 
pay the overhead there, and the Federal and State licenses, which are 
collected. 

Mr. Rice. What do you mean, "overhead" ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, I mean by that 

Mr. Rice. Do you mean protection ? 

Mr. MoiTY. I mean by that truck expenses, the protection, as Mayor 
Morrison called it — the association. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Then it was a losing proposition as far as 
Webster was concerned ; is that right ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What happened ? 



62 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MoiTY. At that particular time, I bought some machines of my 
own. 

Mr. Rice. Did you separate from Webster ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir. Webster demanded my machines when I re- 
fused to pay — I wasn't paying the shake-down and things began to get 
hot. He pulled his machines out. 

Mr. Rice. What became of him ? 

Mr. MoiTY. He went back to Mariana, Fla. 

Mr. Rice. Now, you get into business on your own; is that right? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you get your machines? 

Mr. MoiTY. I bought my machines, most of them, from Southern 
Coin Machine Exchange on the Jefferson Highway in the city of New 
Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. Is that in the city or in the parish ? 

Mr. MoiTY. That's in Jefferson Parish. 

Mr. Rice. With whom did you do business there ? 

Mr. MoiTY. I done business with Jimmy Kail, who is part owner of 
the Southern Coin Machine. 

Mr. Rice. Whose company is that, if you know ? 

Mr. MoiTT. That company, to the best of my knowledge, belongs 
to Jimmy Kail and L. E. Monger, who have that business there in a 
partnership. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard the iiame of Carlos Marcello men- 
tioned with that company ? 

Mr. MoiTY. I have heard the name of Carlos Marcello mentioned. 
However, I have no knowledge or proof that he has any connection 
with that. I haven't heard it mentioned in connection. I have heard 
that Carlos Marcello had something to do with another coin machine 
establishment that I did buy juke boxes from, which is the Dixie Coin 
Machine. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Then you also bought some juke boxes, you say ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir; from the Dixie Coin Machine here in the city 
of New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. With whom did you do business there ? 

Mr. MoiTY. I done business there with Mr. Ed. Holifield. 

Mr. Rice. You understood that was Mr. Carlos Marcello's ? 

Mr. MoiTT. No, sir; I understood that belonged to Johnny Bertucci 
who had some business with Mr. Marcello. 

Mr. Rice. How many machines did you get there? 

Mr. MoiTY. All together I had approximately 40. 

Mr. Rice. And you operated those down in New Iberia? 

Mr. MoiTY. In Iberia Parish and surroundings. 

Mr. Rice. During the time you operated those, was it necessary for 
you to pay protection? 

Mr. MoiTY. It was necessary but I didn't pay it. 

Mr. Rice. What happened ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, they went to my locations and they threatened my 
locations, which caused me to lose some locations, and for a while 
kept me out of New Iberia — kept my machines out, rather, of New 
Iberia altogether, because the locations were afraid. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, when you say "they" threatened you — tell us 
about how many and what they said and wdiat they did. We are inter- 
ested in that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 63 

Mr. MoiTY, Well, they had called up on the telephone. 

Uv. Rice. Who is "they'" ? 

Mr. MoiTY. They would not give any names. The only name that 
I was able to get was because I tricked him into it — I recognized his 
voice — was Deputy Sheriff Charley Reed. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. ' What did he say ? 

Mr. MoiTY. He commenced by telling me what I had to do and 
what I didn't have to do and he went to cussing me, for just about 
everything in the book and part that the type won't take, and 

Mr. Rice. What was his general theme 'i What was he telling you 
besides cussing you ? 

Mr. MoiTY. He was telling me I had better get along, I had better 
close my trap and get out of the way or come up with the cash. 

Mr. Rice. Did he say anything about the machines ? 

Mr. JNIoiTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What did he say? 

Mr. MoiTY. He said I had better either pay him a shake-down or 
get out of the racket. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. What happened next? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, I went to laughing and joking with him and I 
called his name out and finally got him to admit that it was him. 
But then he started laughing and joking and telling me how he was 
kidding with me. 

jSIr. Rice. I see. 

Mr. MoiTY. Because I did tell him, however, that that was being 
recorded, because I had received threats all that day, and, by the way, 
that was the day after I had made a radio talk over radio station 
KROF. 

Mr. Rice. Without going into that, following up those stories, did 
anybod}^ ever take a shot at you ? 

Mr. jNIgity. Yes, sir ; I was shot at coming back from St. Martins- 
ville, going to New loeria. 

Mr. Rice. ^\bout Avhen was that ? 

Mr. MoiTY. That was about 3 days prior to the statement I have 
just made. 

Mr. Rice. Were you alone ? 

Mr. MoiTT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Driving? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir ; I was driving back from Opelousas. 

Mr. Rice. Did the bullet hit the car ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, sir, it barely missed the automobile, but I stepped 
on the gas when it did. 

My. Rice. Did you know where it came from? 

Mr. JNIoiTY. It came from up on a hill just below a curve out of New 
Iberia, just on this side of the boundary line from St. Martin Parish. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know whether it was a rifle shot, revolver, shot- 
gun ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Xo, sir; it was a rifle shot. 

Mr. Rice. Did anyone have reason to know you Avere traveling 
that road ? 

Mr. MoiTY. They just about know all the time Avhen I am traveling 
it. 

Mr. Rice. Why? 



64 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MoiTY. I don't know, but they make it their business. 

Mr. KicE. Are you still in the business ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir; I am still in the business. I tried to sell it 
about — right after I made that trip to Washington. I tried to sell it 
because it had served its purpose. I went to sell it to a man named 
J, G. Lovelady. 

Mr. EiCE. Yes, sir. Where did you find him? 

Mr. MoiTY. He is in Tampa, Fla. 

Mr. Rice. How did you get in touch with Lovelady? 

Mr. MoiTY. Through an ad in the Billboard. 

Mr. Rice. Who put the ad in the Billboard? 

Mr. MoiTY. I put the ad in the Billooard to get rid of the slot ma- 
chines to try to get my money back. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir, what hapjiened in response to the ad? 

Mr. MoiTY. AVell, J. G. Lovelady from Miami, by the way, instead 
of Tampa. 

Mr. Rice. Miami. Yes. 

Mr. MoiTY. Lovelady got ahold of me, wrote to me first, and got 
ahold of me over the telephone, and I invited him down here and he 
came, rode over the set-up with me, and gave me a $750 cash deposit 
on the machines. 

Mr. Rice. How many ? 

Mr. ]VIoiTY. To the best of my recollection, all 40 of tliem. Some 
of them were a little beat up by then. 

Mr. Rice. What was the total deal? I 

Mr. MoiTY. $16,000. 

Mr. Rice. Where was he going to take the machines ? What did he 
tell you? 

Mr. MoiTY. He was going either to operate them there or take them 
away, all depending on what he saw fit. 

Mr. Rice. What do you mean "operate them there," New Iberia? 

Mr. MoiTY. In Iberia Parish. 

Mr. Rice. I see. 

Mr. MoiTY. But when I started disagreeing with the sheriff and 
the marshal and the pay-off man, Mr. Aniar Rodrigue. then they began 
to let me know that that deal ain't going to go through. 

Mr. Rice. How did they let you know that? 

Mr. MoiTY. By calling me up on the telephone. 

Mr. Rice. What did they say ? 

Mr. ]MoiTY. Amar Rodrigue told me personally. 

Mr. Rice. What did they say? 

Mr. MoiTY. They were going to get hold of Lovelady and stop it, 
which they did. 

Mr. Rice. What reason did they give you for wanting to do that? 

Mr. MoTi'Y. One, because I wasn't paying off to them. I decided I 
wasn't going to pay off, to them. 

Mr. Rice. If they wanted you out of business, this was an oppor- 
tunity to get you out of business. Why wasn't that all right with 
them ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Because evidently the heat was on just a little bit too 
much at the time ; and, from the best I could understand, Mr. Love- 
lady wouldn't come up like he should. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 65 

Mr. Rice. Pie didn't make the necessary arrangements with them ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir; you know that association we are talking 
about. The joining fee wasn't enough. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Now, I take it that deal didn't take place, 
wasn't consummated? 

Mr. MoiTT. No, sir. I have a suit against Mr. Lovelady at this time 
where I will have to — where it will be tried in Miami, Fla,, where I 
am supposed to go down to Miami to answer to a suit where I sued 
him through an attorney there at Miami. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. These machines are still here in Louisiana ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir. Those machines are still in Louisiana. 

Mr. Rice. Are they nickel machines ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, some of them are nickel machines; some of them 
are quarter machines. 

]\Ir. Rice. Do they pay off in cash ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir; they pay off in cash money. 

Mr. Rice. Are they in public places? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir; they are. 

Mr. Rice. All of them in different places? 

Mr. MoiTY. Some of them are in my warehouse, and some of them 
are out on location. 

Mr. Rice. How many do you have out on location ? 

Mr. MoiTY. I have approximately 25 out on location, to date. 

Mr. Rice. Is that against the law? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes sir; it is. 

Mr. Rice, Do you have any questions ? 

The Chairman. How about this association you are talking about ? 
Is that the same association Mayor Morrison was talking about this 
morning? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, sir, it is a similar association but the only thing, 
the fees don't go to the same place. ^ 

The Chairmax. What is the name of the association you are talk- 
ing about ? 

Mr. MoiTY. The Ozenne-LaBauve Association. I mean it goes in 
their pockets. 

The Chairman. Oh, yes. 

Mr. MoiTY. In other words, if they don't come up there — oh, by the 
way, something else while I am doing this. Rodrigue is supposed to 
put me out of circulation if I made this trip anyway, so I might just 
as well do it right. 

The Chairman. How do you know they are supposed to put you 
out of circulation? 

Mr. MoiTY. Just before I left, sir, they called me on the telephone. 

The Chairman. Before you left where? 

Mr. ]\IoiTY. New Iberia to come down here. 

The Chairman. Somebody called you on the telephone. Do you 
know who it was ? 

]\Ir. MoiTY. No, sir. After they told me that they cussed me out 
good and they hung up. 

The Chairman. What did somebody say on the telephone? 

Mr. MoiTY. You want me to tell you, sir ? 

The Chairman. Don't use any profanity, but the substance of what 
they said. 



66 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MoiTY. They told me if I made this trip it would be my last 
trip. 

The Chairman. Did they sound like they meant it ? 

Mr. MoiTT. Yes, sir ; they did. 

The Chairman. That has happened to you before ; hasn't it? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir ; it has. And they have let me know that the 
next time they won't miss. 

The Chairman. Are you scared ? 

Mr. MoiTY. No, sir; not at all. I believe that, if it takes that to 
clean up, I am willing to die for it, and I am sincere. 

The Chairman. What makes you think it is so bad ? 

Mr. MoiTY. Because I know it has involved killings. That is why 
you can't have decent government. I don't mean by that I am strictly 
a reformer, because I am not. I mean that it controls elections. 
Those boys contribute — they put up that cash to go out there and buy 
the poor fellows that don't understand how they should vote and why. 

The Chairman. Well, that is what a lot of us have been thinking 
about for a long time. Was there a reaction after you went up to 
Washington ? You came up, and came to see our committee and gave 
Mr. Robinson a statement, and Mr. Kiley. We never heard of you 
before. Did they find out about your having been to Washington ? 

Mr. MoiTT. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What happened? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, it was told to me that with the political set-up 
they had that they could take care of everything in Washington ; that 
I was just barking up the wrong tree. 

The Chairman. All right. The thing is now, you got into this in 
order to find out how it operated and get the first-hand evidence. Is 
that it? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir; that is exactly it. I was enjoying a nice real- 
estate and insurance business, but this friend of mine, however, he 
had the misfortune of getting in an automobile accident and getting 
killed. He had a department store there in New Iberia and I couldn't 
und]erstand — in fact, I just didn't believe it, because I supported the 
sheriff myself. I didn't think that he was accepting that shake-down 
until they cornered me and wanted that cash. Then I knew it wasn't 
no more joke, then. 

The Chairman. Well, what are you going to do about it ? What are 
you going to do, put them out of business ? Have you appeared before 
a grand jury? 

Mr. MoiTY. Well, sir, the citizens of Iberia Parish went before the 
grand jury and prosecuted the locations and the operators for operat- 
ing slot machines, but the grand jury, or should I go so far as to say 
the foreman of thei grand jury, Avho was playing the slot machine 
3 days before, himself, found no true bill against the machine loca- 
tions. And, frankly speaking, it takes a Philadelphia lawyer to get 
them to take a charge against gambling operations; and not only 
gambling, you've got prostitution there on a wholesale scale, you've 
got dope, and other things that I haven't got proof on, that I just 
can't mention at this time. 

The Chairman. Well^ let's just talk about what you have proof 
on. You have got proof on this other. 

All right. Let's get to something else. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 67 

Mr. Rice. On these machines that you liad, do you know the names 
of them, where they were manufactured? 

Mr. MoiTY. The machines I bought, myself, were made up here in 
New Orleans. They were not new machines. I could not afford them. 

Mr. Rice. Rebuilt machines? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir; they were rebuilt machines, rebuilt by the 
Southern Coin. 

The Chairman. Are they Jenninfjs or Mills, or 

Mr. MoiTY. Most of them were Mills. 

The Chairman. They are made in Chicago; arAi't they? 

Mr. MoiTY. Yes, sir; Mills Manufacturing Co. is in Chicago, but 
it's been ^ long time since those machines saw Chicago. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Moity. Good luck to you. 

Mr. Moity. As I stated before, I hope there is something that the 
committee can do that will get the law-enforcement bodies of the 
Parish of Iberia to enforce the laws as they should be enforced, or 
resign. 

The Chairman. Well, I will just say this: How large is Iberia? 

Mr. Moity. Tliei'e are 25,000 people. 

The Chairman. You mean that is the city, the town? 

Mr. Moity. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And the county, how many people are in the 
county ? 

Mr. Moity. There are about 40,000, I'd say. 

The Chairman. Outside of the city? 

Mr. Moity. Yes, sir. 

The Chair:man. Weil, if more people in the public would stand up 
and be counted and felt about it, that it is a bad thing, and would . 
demand protection, of course it would be done. I still, in my heart, 
have an abiding belief that the great majority of people in every 
county really don't like that sort of thing. If they can just get to- 
gether about it. So maybe they will. 

Mr. Moity. Yes, sir. The trouble with most of them are, a lot of 
people have families there and the}^ realize the chance a man takes 
when he does what I am doing, and a lot of them have got to make 
their living right there, and when they find out that a body cannot 
help them legally, or put a stop to it, they are even scared to say 
anything. In fact, they even have had some of the clergymen scared. 

The Chairman. But the clergymen are not scared now; are they? 

Mr. Moity. No, sir. If they were subpenaed, they'd come forth and 
bring out just what I am saying, I think, almost exactly there as I 
have said it. 

The Chairman. All right, we certainly do appreciate your coming 
to Washington and telling us about it and having the courage to 
come here today and give this committee this information. 

Mr. Moity. Tliank you, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF J. E. REGAN, NEW ORLEANS, LA., REPRESENTATIVE 

OF WESTERN UNION 

The Chairman. Mr. Regan, yon do solemnly swear the testimony 
you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Regan. I do. 



68 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Rice, Mr. Regan, you are appearing here in response to a 
subpena directed to Western Union ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. In the absence of Mr. Jackson, the manager here. Is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now, then, your company was called upon 
to produce certain records. Is that right ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, I wonder if you could enlighten us a little bit. Tell 
us about types of equipment that are furnished to these wire-service 
organizations, making a distinction between an 8-A ticker and a 
Morse key, and the equipment and unequipped lines. 

Mr. Regan. I see. 

Mr. Rice. What is an 8-A ticker ? 

Mr. Regan. That is a regular ticker that is used in quoting all com- 
modities. For example, the sugar quotations are quoted over it as 
well as coffee. 

Mr. Rice. That is the thing that operates like a typewriter ? 

Mr. Regan. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. And it comes out on a tape ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. They are used in baseball, New York stocks, 
cotton ticker, Chicago grain. 

Mr. Rice. So that anything that is typed on one machine starts a 
circuit, an impulse through the wire, to a similar receiving machine 
and it comes out printed. Is that right ? 

Mr. Regan. That is correct, 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, you also have Morse circuits; do you not? 

Mr. Regan, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. That is activated by a key transmitter? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice, It goes over the wire and is received by another key and 
transcribed by an operator who is expert in receiving such a signal ? 

Mr, Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, can you tell us what is an equipped and what is 
an unequipped line ? 

Mr. Regan. Well, an equipped line would be where Morse facilities 
are attached. In other words, a transmission set and a receiving set. 

Mr. Rice, Well, it could have either an 8-A or a Morse on the other 
end ; is that correct ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. ' 

Mr. Rice. It is fully set up and ready to operate ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, an unequipped line is what? 

Mr. Regan. Just the wires themselves. 

Mr. Rice. A wire with an ending some place ? 

Mr. Regan. Terminating. 

Mr. Rice. Does that have electricity in this wire ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir ; it is live. 

Mr. Rice. And suppose on this unequipped wire, someone were to 
attach an instrument ? Even though you say it is unequipped, it would 
operate, would it not ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 69 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, AVestern Union supplies these 8-A tickers 
antl the Morse receivers. Is that right? 

Mr, Regan. We supply the 8-A ticker and the Moi-se sets. 

Mr. Rice. That's right. Now, sir, can you tell us from the records 
you have brought what service is being brought into the New Orleans 
area from Continental Press in Chicago? 

The Chairman. Or Illinois News Service; wherever it comes from? 

Mr. Regan. Well, at this time, there are three terminal points for 
Continental Press in the New Orleans area. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. sir. Where are they located ? 

Mr. Regan. One is at 424 Camp Street. 

Mr. Rice. 424 Camp ? 

Mr. Regan. In New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. AVho is the lessee or the receiver on that drop ? 

Mr. Regan. I don't have that name, sir. 

Mr. Rice. That's at 424 Camp ? 

Mr, Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

Mr. Regan. Another one at 117 Huey P. Long Avenue, in Gretna. 

Mr. Rice, Now, there is another direct line from Continental to 117 
Huey P. Long Avenue, in Gretna ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know who is tlie receiver of that? 

Mr. Regan. No, sir; we have no names. 

Mr, Rice. Do vou have a third? 

Mr. Regan. The third at 1648 Gentilly Road. 

Mr. Rice. Where is that? 

Mr. Regan. 1648 Gentilly Road, here in New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. Is that in the city or in the parish? 

Mr. Regan. No, sir; that is within the city limits. 

Mr. Rice. I see. And approximately where is that? 

Mr. Regan. Well, that is in the vicinity of the Fair Grounds, out 
on Gentilly Highway. 

Mr. Rice. Right near tlie Fair Grounds race track? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Do you know what type of building that is located 
in? 

Mr. Regan. No, sir ; I am not familiar with that. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know of any reason for having a ticker out there 
near the Fair Grounds? 

Mr. Regan, Well, it is close to the track, and I suppose to get the 
result as quickly as possible, 

Mr. Rice. Would it be a fair assumption to say that that location 
is in a position where possibly the race results can be seen and quickly 
communicated to Chicago from without the track? 

Mr. Regan. That appears to be correct. 

Mr, Rice, Now. from your records, or from your knowledge there, 
do you know whether that place leases or has service during the time 
that the horses are not running at the Fair Grounds ? 

Mr, Regan. No, sir ; that place is in operation only during the Fair 
Grounds meet, 

Mr. Rice. So that during the time that the horses are running that 
activity there takes place? 

Mr, Regan. The wires are set. 



70 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, do you service an outfit known as the Daily 
Sports News ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who is the person that you do business with at the Daily 
Sports News ? 

Mr. Regan. Mr. Fogarty. 

Mr. Rice. Which Mr. Fogarty is that? 

Mr. Regan. J. E. usually signs the contract. 

Mr. Rice. J. E. usually signs. Who is the other Fogarty? 

Mr. Regan. Mr. John J. Fogarty. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, I show you a telegram received from you in 
response to the subpena, which I w^ill read, in part. Do you recognize 
that [handing document to witness] ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir; this is our telegram. 

Mr. Rice. Read that. 

Mr. Regan. This part? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Regan (reading) : 

The applications for the leased circuits of the Daily Sports News are signed 
by J. E. Fogarty and in some cases J. J. Fogarty. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. That is an official communication you received 
from your headquarters ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir ; in New York City. 

(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 8," and appears in the 
appendix on p. 428.) 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

Now, I am about to show you a bill. Does that cover this bill? 
Does that apply to the applications for which this bill was rendered 
[handing document to witness] ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what do those bills show ? 

Mr. Regan. Well, it shows what service is furnished and the places 
where. 

Mr. Rice. Go ahead. 

Mr. Regan. Shall I read it ? 

Mr. Rice. Generally, what does it show? 

Mr. Regan. For example, there is Alexandria, La., a bill for $10 
for the period November 11, 1950, to November 30, 1950; and there 
is an item billed from Eunice, La.. 55 miles 

]\Ir. Rice. Before you go any further, what does that mean ? Who 
is being billed for what ? 

Mr. Regan. Well, the Daily Sports News is being billed by the 
telegraph service for the private wire that is made available to them 
at Alexandria. 

Mr. Rice. This wire goes from where to where? Well, you started 
with Continental. Doesn't Daily Sports News recceive — isn't it a 
drop-off of Continental ? 

Mr. Regan. I am not qualified to answer that, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Well, jou have just testified that the 117 Huey P. Long 
address received service from Continental, did you not ? 

Mr. Regan. That is a Continental lease. 

Mr. Rice. Yes ; and doesn't that go to Daily Sports ? 

Mr. Regan. Well, that is on a circuit between — in other words, you 
want to know if this Alexandria is on the same circuit ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 71 

Mr. Rick. Xo: iny question is this: Isn't Daily Sports a receiver of 
information or a receiver of service from Continental over Western 
Union wires? 

Mr. Regan. I would say 

Ml'. Rice. What is the address of Daily Sports News? Wliere do 
you bill them ? 

Mr. Regan. We have it 507 Baiter Building, 424 Camp Street, which 
is one of the addresses here. Yes ; I follow you now. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now in turn these addresses are serviced, so 
far as you know, by Daily Sports ? Is that correct ? 

JNIr. Regan. These on the bill ? Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now what to the}^ pay ? 

The Chair3ian. Have we got the addresses on the bill in or are you 
going to put them in as an exhibit, or what ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes; we will put them in as an exliibit. We will put 
them in, in toto. 

The Chairman. Let them be put in as an exhibit. 
(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 9" and appears in the 
appendix on p. 428.) 

Mr. Rice. What do they pay on some of those ? 

Mr. Regan. Well, for example, the service to Alexandria is billed 
to the Daily Sports News for $10. 

Mr. Rice. Does that indicate an equipped or unequipped drop ? 

Mr. Regan. This would appear to be a private wire, service rental, 
which is just a leased line, unequipped, in other words. 

Mr. Rice. What are some of the other locations, by cities where 
that service 

Mr. RjxJAN. They are alphabetically arranged here: Alexandria, 
La.; Baton Rouge, La.; Bay St. Louis, Miss.; Biloxi, Miss.; Delta 
Point, La. ; Eunice, La. Do you want any more of them ? 

Mr. Rice. I see. Approximately how many are there, all told ? 

Mr. Regan. I would have to count them. 

Mr. Rice. Approximately ; you can look at them. Sixty ? 

Aren't they totaled at the end ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes. they are totaled. 

Mv. Rice. How many? 

Mr. Regan. That would be the amount of the bill. Is that what 
you want ? 

Mr. Klein. No ; the number of locations. 

The Chairman. Let's speak up and get the witness' testimony in 
the record. 

Mr. Regan. Sixty-six, 

Mr. Rice. What is the date of that bill, Mr. Regan ? 

Mr. Regan. This is dated New York, December 1, 1950. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, why is that billed from New York rather 
than locally? 

Mr. Regan. All of the leased-wires contracts are made at New 
York. 

Mr. Rice. At New York ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Let me see that [document handed to chairman]. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, are all of them billed from New York? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 



72 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Is that true with respect to the wires that are leased to 
newspapers ? 

Mr. Regan. I don't think we have any newspaper leases, that is 
Associated Press, but we would bill the Associated Press from New 
York. 

Mr. Rice. Well, now, I show you another paper and ask you if that 
helps you any on that question [document handed to witness]. 

Mr. Regan. This was billed from the general manager's office over 
in Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Rice. From Dallas? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What are those bills for ? 

Mr. Regan. Well, this is a bill made to the Daily Sports News at 
117 Huey P. Long Avenue. 

Mr. Rice. A bill for what? 

Mr. Regan. One single circuit. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Regan. Intracity for continuous operation ; local : with the city. 

Mr. Rice. Well, now, why is it that newspapers, or that type of 
service, is billed from Dallas, whereas all of these other types of serv- 
ices are billed from New York? 

Mr. Regan. Well, as I say, we don't have any leases from the news- 
papers, sir. 

Mr. Rice. They serve Daily Sports, but that part is billed out of 
Dallas, and part of it is billed out of New York. Is that right? 

ISIr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Is there any unequipped circuit con- 
necting with Daily Sports in Pass Christian, Miss. ? 

Mr. Regan. The Senator has tlie bill. 

The Chairman. It is right here. 

Mr. Regan. Pass Christian. There is an item on this bill for $65.99 
covering service to Pass Christian, Miss., from Bay St. Louis, Miss., 
transmitter at 241 Davis Avenue, Davis Avenue and Twenty-second 
Street, and that is M. R. Jackson, Davis Avenue and Twenty-second 
Street, and Vic Austin, Second and Market Streets, for period Novem- 
ber 3, 1950, to November 30, 1950. 

Mr. Rice. Now, does that circuit on that connect with the Baiter 
Building operation ? 

Mr. Regan. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. I show you another document, and call your attention 
to the note at the bottom and see if that refreshes your recollection 
[handing document to witness] ? 

Mr. Regan. There is a statement on here that says this circuit con- 
nects 507 Baiter Building, New Orleans, La., with 211 Davis Avenue, 
Pass Christian. 

Mr. Rice. As of what date? 

Mr. Regan. That is as of January 3, 1949, billed from New York. 

Mr, Rice. Now, sir ; I might state, for the record, that is as the paper 
was received. The note was there when we received it. 

Mr. Regan. I see. Well, as I say, I have no knowledge of it. I am 
substituting for Mr. Jackson. 

Mr. Rice. What type of service is that that goes to Pass Christian? 

Mr. Regan. (Examining document.) 

Mr. Rice. I think you will find it on the last page. 



ORGANIZED CRUVIE IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 73 

Mr. Regan. That is an intercity, unequipped circuit. 

Mr. Rice. That is an unequipped circuit. How much did they pay 
for that? 

Mr. Regax. $186 a month. 

Mr. Rice. Can you conceive of any reason why anyone should pay 
for that service on an unequipped basis ? 

Mr. Regan (laughs) . I wouldn't know, sir ; truthfully. 

Mr. Rice. You wouldn't know. 

Now, sir: that list that has been submitted, is that current, the ex- 
hibit? Is that the current list? 

The Chairman. Let's get these made exhibits so we can have some 
order in the testimony. Make this one exhibit No. 10, the bill. 

(The document was marked ''Exhibit No. 10" and appears in the 
appendix on p. 433.) 

Mr. Rice. I wonder if you can find there if the Louisiana News Co., 
has any connection with the Daily Sports? 

Mr. Regan (examining documents). These bills are made to the 
Daily Sports. 

Mr. Rice. Those bills are made to Daily Sports ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Does Louisiana News show as a drop from the Daily 
Sports on that? 

Mr. Regan. I don't follow your question, please, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Well, sir, those addresses show the customers of Daily 
Sports, do they not? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Now. among those customers do you find a 
Louisiana News Co.? In New Orleans; in the city. 

Mr. Regan. No, sir; it is not listed here. 

Mr, Rice. We will give you the address of that in a moment. In 
the meantime, I will ask you (his further question. 

We also asked you in the subpena for information as to any service 
furnished to the Southern News & Publishing Co., in 1946, I show 
you a telegram submitted in i-esponse to that and ask you to identify 
that as an official document from your company and read it into the 
record. 

Mr. Regan. Telegram from New York City, N. Y. 

Mr. Rice. Is that a communication received in the course of your 
business ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. What date was that? 

Mr. Regan. January 19, 1951, addressed to Jackson, who is super- 
intendent at New Orleans : 

Your message date although copies of bills no longer available, onr records 
show we did lease an SA ticker to the Southern News Service & Publishing Co. 
from August 12, 1940, to January 6, 1947, inclusive, serving following drops: 
John Dackmack, 236 Third Street, Baton Rouge, La., from August 12, 1946, to 
November 29, 1940. Southern News Service & Publishing Co. from 

The Chairman. A little louder, sir; I am afraid they can't hear. 
Mr. Rice. I wonder if it would help if I read it ? 
Mr. Reg.\n. If you care. 
Mr. Rice (reading) : 

Southern News Service & Publishing Co. from December 21, 1940 to January 6, 
1947. Transmitter located at 204 Liberty Building, New Orleans, La., from 
August 12, 1946, to October 16, 1946. Moved to 480 Destrahan Street, Harvey, 



74 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

La., on uctober 17, 1946. Moved to 117 Huey P. Long Avenue. Gretna, La., on 
December 13, 1946. Discontinued from latter address January 6, 1947. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, I wonder if yon are able to tell its w^ith whom 
Western Union did business with the Southern News & Publishing 
Co.; what individual represented that company? 

Mr. Eegan. That was Mr. John Poretto. 

Mr. KiCE. That was Mr. John Poretto? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How do you know that was it, Joe Poretto? 

Mr. Regan. Joe; yes. 

Mr. Rice. How do you know that? 

Mr. Regan. It's several years back. Well, I had contracts signed 
over there. 

Mr. Rice. You handled contracts signed by Poretto? 

Mr. Regan. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what was the nature of Poretto's business? 

Mr. Regan., Well, the dissemination of race-horse news, 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, he disseminated race-horse news? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, at the same time was the Daily Sports News in 
operation ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. So that apparently for a short time the Southern News 
Publishing Co. was in competition, shall we say, with the Daily Sports 
News ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right; now, what happened to Mr. Poretto's opera- 
tion ? 

Mr. Regan. That, I would be unable to say, sir. The records here 
show that the service that was furnished to the Southern News Service 
& Publishing Co. from August 12, 1946, was discontinued January 
6, 1947. 

Mr. Rice. We will offer this as an exhibit. 

The Chairman. That will be exhibit No. 11. 

(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 11" and appears in the 
appendix on p. 436.) 

Mr. Rice. Notwithstanding the fact that the wire shows that the 
service of Southern News Publishing was discontinued at the Huey 
P. Long address there is still some type of service being furnished 
there without interruption ? Is that correct ? 

Mr. Regan. At 117, Huey P. Long; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Just to orient the matter, Mr. Rice, is that the 
Trans-America that began at a certain time and got discontinued? 

Mr. Rice. I wonder if the witness knows where the Southern News 
Publishing Co. was receiving service from? 

Mr. Regan. To the best of my knowledge, at that New Orleans 
address in the Liberty Building. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now where was that coming from when it went 
into the Liberty Building? Was it coming from New York or 
Chicago ? 

Mr. Regan. That I don't know. I'd have to have my records. 

Mr. Rice. It was receiving some service? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Was that from a Continental or from Trans-America? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 75 

!Mr. Regan. I don't know the connections. 
Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of Trans-America? 
Mr, Regan. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Rice. Is it possible it was received from Trans- America ? 
Mr. Regan. I would-be unable to say. 

Mr. Rice. Would you be able to tell from your company records- 
whether it was or not ? 

Mr. Regan. The contract sliould show that information, where it 
ori<2:inates and where it terminates. 
Mr. Rice. That contract in existence? 
Mr. Regan. Not locally. 
jNIr. Rice. Not locally, where would that be? 

Mr. Regan. Either in the Dallas office or the New York office. 
Dallas is our divisional headquarters for this division. 
Mr. Rice. All ri<rht, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Rice, will you try to sum up and let's get the 
number of different types of wire service comina" into this section and 
into New Orleans. Do I understand you have three lines from Con- 
tinental, or how many from Continental? 
Mr. Regan. Three terminal points. 
The Chairman. What is a terminal point? 

Mr. Regan. That is the different places where they operate from 
the main line. 

The Chairman. And name those three terminal points again. 
Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. At 424 Camp Street. 
The Chairman. Now just a minute, 424 Camp Street. 
Mr. Regan. In New Orleans. 
Mr. Chairman. What is that, Mr. Rice ? 
Mr. Rice. Thafs the Daily Sports News Publishing? 
The Chairman. That is Daily Sports News Publishing House. We 
will bring that out in the evidence. That is Camp Street. What 
else? 

Mr. Regan. 117 Huey P. Long Avenue, Gretna. 
The Chairman. What is that ? 

Mr. Rice. That's again the Daily Sports News Publishing House. 
Mr. Regan. And at 1648 Gentilly Road here in the city. 
The Chairman. Do you know what that is ? 
Mr. Rice. You don't know who that is, do you ? 
Mr. Regan. No, sir; I don't. 

The Chairman. Gentilly Road. Is that an active terminal point 
now ? 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then from these terminal points you have a fan- 
out into INIississippi and other parts of Louisiana, as shown by these 
exhibits. Is that correct ? 
Mr. Regan. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I notice one of the fan-outs has a lot of places in 
the city of New Orleans listed on it. 

Mr. Regan. If there is any question I'd be glad to answer it. 
The Chairman. Does it? 
Mr. Regan. Yes ; it does. 

The Chairman. Are those inactive wires or are they active wires? 
Do you know? 

68958—51 — pt. 8 6 



'76 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Regan. To the best of my knowledge, they are inactive. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether any of them are active or 
not? 

Mr. Regan. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Well, it would be possible, shall we say, for Daily Sports 
News, who are in control of the wires, to be activating those wires and 
for an individual controlling that wire to be receiving service without 
the knowledge of Western Union? Would that be a fair statement? 

Hr. Regan. That is possible ; yes, sir. 

Now, if I may look at those bills 

The Chairman. I understand the bills for the three addresses you 
have given are sent from New York but the bills for AP, UP, and 
INS or newspapers are sent from Dallas, Tex. 

Mr. Regan. No, sir; we don't have any newspaper leases here, but 
if they are AP I know we service them, and that bill would be 
contracted in New York. 

The Chairman. The Daily Sports News furnishes it to the news- 
papers ? Is that correct ? 

Mr, Regan. Senator, in that connection, if I may review the bills, 
it may be that the newspapers here are on the list and those would be 
;active. 

The Chairman. The bills are down there. 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir ; I have them [examining Regan Exhibit 2J. 

Mr. Regan. I don't find it. 

Mr. Rice. We have checked it ; we know that they are. 

With respect to the unequipped lines running into the city proper, 
into New Orleans itself, of which there are about 20, rent is being paid 
or money is being paid for those unequipped lines. Is that not correct ? 

Mr, Regan. According to the statement here, they are being billed. 

Mr, Rice. Yes. So that each and every month as the bills go along, 
someone is paying for these unequipped wires? 

Mr. Regan. Wait now, let's see if there are any listed here from New 
Orleans [examining Regan Exhibit 2]. 

It shows the address of the Daily Sports News at 424 Camp Street. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Regan. Gulf Stream Printers, at 540 Royal Street. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. You are talking about the equipped circuit now; 
the unequipped circuits I am talking about. 

Mr. Regan. I see. 

The Chairman. Well, I take it it is all in the records. We can digest 
those. 

Mr. Regan. Yes, sir ; it is. I find them now, Senator. 

The Chairman, All right ; what is it ? 

Mr. Regan. 507 Baiter Building. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Regan. 517 Bienville Street. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Regan. 644 Camp Street. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Regan. 435 Carondelet Street. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Regan. 303 Beckbar Avenue. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Regan. 126 Exchange Alley. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 77 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Regan. 130 Excluin<ie Alley. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Regax. 718 Front Street, Gretna. 

Mr. Rice. That is not in the citv ^ 

Mr. Regan. Xo. That is all then. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

Mr. Regan. Here are some more. 620 Iberville Street, 738 Iber- 
Tille Street. 739 Iberville Street, 120 Royal Street, 309 St. Charles 
Street, 631 St. Charles Street, 835 South Front Street, 501 South Ram- 
jDart Street, 3019 Fortin Street, 123 University Place. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, sir, as a Western Union man of many years 
standing, you can think of no reason why anyone should want to pay 
for these wires when they are unequipped, can you ? 

Mr. Regan. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. How much do these unequipped wires cost on an 
siverage there ? Read some of the amounts. 

Mr. Regan (examining Regan Exhibit No. 9, p. 6). Well, here is 
one to Airline Hiohway, $21 for a month. Then there are any num- 
ber of them, 1378 Airline Highway, $21; 2815 Airline Highway, $21, 
and 3375 Airline Highway, $21. Then there is 3383 Airline Highway, 
$25; 2730 Airline Highway, $25; 2734 Airline Highway, $25 ; 3600 
Airline Highway, well, that is over a period of 3 months, September 
1, 1950, to December 31. 1950, $100. 

The Chairman. All right, we thank you very much, Mr. Regan. 

Mr. Regan. Thank you. Senator. 

Mr. Rice. Before you leave the stand, let us enter into the record 
this wire which supports your testimony about Poretto. 

The Chairman. Read the wire and call it exhibit No. 12. 

Mr. Regan. All right, sir. Telegram from New York City, Jan- 
nary 25, 1951, addressed to Jackson, New Orleans : 

Your message yesterday applications we have for Southern News & Publish- 
ing Co. dated August 22, 1946, November 7, 1946, and December 10, 1946, bear 
the signature "Joseph A. Poretto." 

(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 12.*' 
The Chairman. All right ; thank you very much. 
Mr. Regan. Thank j^ou. Senator. 
(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF MAUEICE I. ROUFA, NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY GUS LEVY, ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. RouFA. I do. 

Mr. Rice. How long have you lived here, Mr. Rouf a ? 

Mr. Roufa. 214 years. 

Mr. Rice. 21/2 years ? 

Mr. Roufa. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you live before that? 

Mr. Roufa. St. Louis* Mo. 

Mr. Rice. St. Louis, Mo. Now, are you a native of St. Louis? 



78 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. KouFA. Yes. 

Mr. Rice, You lived there all your life prior to coming- here? 

Mr. RouFA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What business were you engaged in in St. Louis? 

Mr. RouFA. Wholesale distribution of magazines and newspapers. 

Mr. Rice. Magazine and newspaper distribution? 

Mr. RouFA. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. RouFA. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice, You have never been arrested ? 

Mr. RouFA. Felony charge — not felony but for speeding. 

Mr. Rice. Traffic offenses? 

Mr. RouFA. Traffic oifenses only. 

Mr. Rice. With whom were you associated in business in St. Louis? 

Mr. RouFA. Pierce Building News Co. 

Mr. Rice. What was the name of that ? 

Mr. RouFA. P-i-e-r-c-e. 

Mr. Rice. Pierce Building News Co., and who were your associates 
in the Pierce Building News Co. ? 

Mr. RouFA. William Molasky, partner. 

Mr. Rice. William Molasky? 

Mr. RouFA. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. What position did he hold ? 

Mr. RouFA. One of the partners. 

Mr. Rice. He was one of the partners. Were you a partner? 

Mr. RouFA. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who else? 

Mr. RouFA. Mrs. Molasky. 

Mr. Rice. Mrs. Molasky ? 

Mr. RouFA. Mrs. William Molasky. Jerome Molasky, a son, and 
Allen Molasky, another son. 

Mr. Rice. Is that the same Molasky who was connected with the 
Pioneer News in St. Louis? 

Mr. RouFA. I understand he was, yes. 

Mr. Rice. How long were you associated with them, the Molaskys? 

Mr. RouFA. About 15 years. 

Mr. Rice. Did you see him nearly every day ? 

Mr. RouFA. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. You say you understood that he was connected with 
Pioneer News in St. Louis? 

Mr. RouFA. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what is the name of your operation here? 

Mr. RouFA. Louisiana News Co. 

Mr. Rice. Louisiana News Co. ? 

Mr. RouFA. Louisiana News Co. 

Mr. Rice. When was that formed ? 

Mr. RouFA. I think about 22 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. About 22 years ago ? 

Mr. RouFA. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Where is that located ? 

Mr. RouFA. 1634 Clio Street. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, w^hen you entered the Louisiana News Co., 
was there a sale ? 

Mr. RouFA. No ; I just came down as manager. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 79 

Mr. Rice. You just came as manager. 

Did you have any ownership interest ? 

Mr. RouFA. None at all. 

Mr. Rice. No interest in the company at all ? 

Mr, RoTJFA. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What is the ownersip of the company ? 

Mr. RoTJFA. William Molasky. 

Mr. Rice. Well, how long has he been interestedin it? 

Mr. RouFA. Since 1928, 1 believe. 

Mr. Rice. He's been interested in Louisiana News Co. since 1928 ? 

Mr. RouFA. That is a partnership. 

Mr. Rice, And who are the other partners ? 

Mr. RouFA. ISIrs. AVilliani Molasky, Jerome Molasky, and Allen 
Molasky. 

Mr. Rice. So the Louisiana News is owned in toto by the Molasky 
family ? 

Is that correct ? 

Mr, RouFA. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. Your status is that of manager ? 

Mr. RouFA. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. How frequently does Mr. Molasky appear here in con- 
nection wntli the operation of the Lousiana News? 

Mr. RouFA. I'd say about once a year. 

^Nlr. Rice. Did you recently move into a new building? 

Mr, RouFA. Yes. 

Mr, Rice. When was that? 

Mr, RouFA. Last November : a year ago November. 

Mr, Rice. Year ago November, That was in the nature of an 
expansion ? 

Mr. RouFA. That's right. 

]\Ir. Rice. What is the nature of the business? 

Mr. RouFA. Wholesale distribution of newspapers, magazines, rac- 
ing periodicals. 

Mr. Rice. Racing periodicals? 

Mr, RouFA. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. What are some of the racing periodicals? 

Mr. RouFA, Daily racino- forms. Numerous others. 

Mr. Rice, What others ? 

Mr. RouFA. Turf and Sport. 

Mr, Rice, Turf and Sport? 

Mr. RouFA. Scratch sheet. Not the scratch sheet but what we 
call a line sheet. 

Mr, Rice, Where do you get your racing news ? 

Mr, RouFA, Racing news, we don't receive any racing news. 

Mr, Rice, Do you not have a connection with Daily Sports ? 

Mr. RouFA. No, sir, 

Mr, Rice, Where does the news come from that you print in your 
paper? 

Mr, RouFA, We don't do any printing at all; we are just wholesale 
distributors, 

Mr. Rice. Where are these periodicals printed? 

Mr. RouFA. Well there are some printed in the eastern part of the 
country, the racing form printed in Houston, Tex. 

Mr, Rice, You have no daily scratch sheet ? 



80 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. RouFA. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have a grand opening when 3-011 moved into- 
your new place? 

Mr. RouFA. We had a grand opening in February. 

Mr. Rice. Was Mr. Molasky down for that ? 

Mr. RouFA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, do vou have anv business with the Beverly Coun- 
try Club? 

Mr. RouFA. None. 

Mr. Rice. Are you quite sure of that ? 

Mr. RouFA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Beverly Club? 

Mr. RouFA. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Phil Kastel? 

Mr. RouFA. Don't even know the gentlemen. 

Mr. Rice. Never received an}' money from them ? 

Mr. RouFA. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible that your company could have received 
money from them without your knowledge ? 

Mr. RouFA. I don't think it is possible. 

The Chairman. Well, could it be possible for you to be selling them 
anything, racing information? 

Mr. RouFA. I don't know of anything that we sell them, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You know Phil Kastel? 

Mr. RouFA. No. sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Frank Costello? 

Mr. RoTTFA. No. sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Taneco? 

Mr. RouFA. No, sir. 

The Ciiair:man. Let me get tlie matter straight. I thought that 
one of the addresses given by this Western Union man was the same 
address where your place is ? 

Mr. RouFA. For what, sir? 

The Chairman. For a drop. 

Mr. Levy. He gave an address on Gentilly Road which sounded 
similar to the address. 

Mr. Rice. 1634 Clio. 

Mr. RoFFA. We have no Western L^nion drop of any kind. 

Mr. Levy. The Western L^nion man gave an address, 1643 Gentilly 
Road, which may have confused you on this 1634 Clio. 

Mr. Rice. In any event, you have no business relationship with 
Fogarty ? 

Mr. RouFA. No. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Fogarty ? 

Mr. RouFA. I have met the gentleman once. 

The Chairman. All right. Anything else? 

Are you related to Mr. Molasky?" 

Mr. RouFx\. Yes: througli marriage. 

The Chairman. His nephew ? 

Mr. RouFA. Nephew through marriage. 

The Chairman. Nephew through marriage? 

Mr. RouFA. That's right. 

The Chairman. You have two brothers, I believe ? 

Mr. RouFA. I have four brothers. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 81- 

Tlie Cjiairmax. Two in the news-distributing business? 

Mr. R(»i FA. No ; I have no brothers in the news-distributing business- 

The CiiAiiiJMAX. Aren't one of your brothers or two brothers con- 
nected with Molasky in some business 'i 

Mr. MouFA. A brother-in-Uiw. One brother-in-law. 

The Chairman. What is his name? 

Mr. RouFA. Morris Hoffman. 

The Chairman. What does he do? 

Mr. RotFA. He works in the office in St. Louis. 

The Chairman. In St. Louis. 

I believe that is all. Stay just for a few minutes. 

We will have about a 5-minute recess at this time. 

Mr. Levy. Are we finished now^, sir ? 

The Chairman. Yes, but I want to check one thing. I may want 
to call you back right after the recess. 

(Short recess.) 

The C^HAiRMAN. Mr. Roufa, you are not related to the Roufas in- 
Kansas City? 

Mr. Roufa. There are no Roufas in Kansas City. I have a family 
in St. Louis. I don't know of anyone there. 

Mr. Levy. I believe Mr. Roufa can clarify the whole situation. 

Mr. Roufa. I have one brother a doctor, one a dentist, two of them, 
are salesmen. 

Mr. Rice. Did Mr. Molasky ever go to jail ? 

Mr. Roufa. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What was that for? 

The Chairman. The record shows that. 

Mr. Roufa. The record shows that ; tax evasion. 

Mr. Rice. Income-tax evasion. 

The Chairman. Income-tax matters in 1938 or 1939. 

Mr. Roufa. Somewhere around there. 

The Chairman. And you don't know Phil Kastel ? 

Mr. Roufa. No, sir. 

Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Who is the next witness ? 

Mr. Rice. John J. Fogarty. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN J. FOGARTY, NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY WARREN 0. COLEMAN, ATTORNEY, NEW ORLE^ANS, 
LA. 

The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the testimony you give this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I do. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Coleman. 

Mr. Coleman. I would like to reserve the same thing that I re- 
served before. I would lilce to read this statement into the record. I 
demand an attendance of a legal quorum of this committee before 
proceeding further. Should it be here ruled that I am not entitled to 
this relief or that the member or members present now are sufficient 
to constitute a quorum to compel me to proceed, I do so under protest 
and reserve all of my rights in the premises. 



'82 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. All right, sir. Your statement is in the record, and 
^duly noted. 

Mr. Coleman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Let's get to the point, 

Mr. Rice. Now, your name is John J, Fogarty ? 

-Mr. Fogarty. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How do you spell that, sir ? 

Mr. Fogarty. F-o-g-a-r-t-y. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you live, Mr. Fogarty ? 

Mr. Fogarty. 3509 Nashville Avenue, New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. What is your business? 

Mr. Fo:"rARTY. I am owner of the Daily Sports News. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, how long have you been in the sporting news 
business? 

Mr, Fogarty. Thirty-two years. 

Mr. Rice. Thirty-two years. Did you kiiow John J. Ragen, John 
Hagen, John M, Ragen ? 

The Chairman. James Ragen? 

Mr. Fogarty. I think you have the wrong name. 

Mr. Rice. James Ragen, from Chicago. 

IVIr. Fogarty. I know of Mr. Ragen, yes. 

Mr. Rice. You know of him ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Were you ever in business with liim ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know what business he was in ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I think he was a newsi)aperman at one time, I think 
lie was connected with 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't he connected with a wire service? 

Mr. Fogarty. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. And weren't you connected with the wire service at the 
:same time ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I own the wire service here in New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. I am talking about in Chicago. 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, was Mr. Ragen ever in business with you down 
^here in New Orleans ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Were j^ou ever in the "run-down" sheet business? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Ragen at one time made the statement that from 
1939 to 19J:3 he was in the run-down sheet business in New Orleans, 
;also Gulfstream. You had sort of an interest in the over-all picture. 

Mr. Fogarty. I know nothing of that. 

Mr. Rice. When vou knew him, did you know him to be down here 
at all ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't know. I couldn't answer that. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you know him ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I couldn't answer that because I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you know him ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Mr. Ragen ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Fogarty. From Chicago. 

Mr. Rice. Were you up there? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 83' 

Mr. FoGAKTY. In Chicago ? 

ISIr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. FcKiAHTY. No ; I was here in New Orleans. 

Mr. EiCE. Where did you meet Mr. Ragen ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I had bought service from — I don't think it was th& 
Continental Press at that time. 

Mr. Rice. It was Nation Wide. 

Mr. FoGARTY. Nation Wide. 

Mr. Rice. You bought service from Ragen when he was witb 
Nation Wide in Chicago. Where did you transact your business witb 
him ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Over the telephone. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever meet him in person ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did he have any interest in your operation at any time? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did he own any interest in the fixtures or in the 
lease or the place that you operated here in New Orleans? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did Nation Wide have any interest ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. It was personally owned. 

Mr. Rice. By yourself? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What was the name of vour company then? 

Mr. Fogarty. I think it was the Orescent City Publishing Co.- 

Mr. Rice. When did that go out of business? 

Mr. F'ogarty. I can't I'emember. 

Mr. Rice. Approximately. 

Mr. Fogarty. I can't remember. 

Mr. Rice. How many businesses do you have now ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Just that one. 

Mr. Rice. What is the name of it ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Daily Sports News. 

Mr. Rice. When did that start? 

Mr. Fogarty'. On November 19 — I can't remember that, either. 
That's quite awhile ago. You see I am 32 years in this business. 

Mr. Rice. You are 32 years in the business ? 

Mr. Fogarty. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Well, was it more than 10 years ago? 

Mr. Fogarty. No ; I don't think it was that long ago. 

Mr. Rice. Would it refresh your recollection to say that you, in 1946,. 
had a lawsuit in which you said you and your son had been in the 
business for 4 years previous, which would make it in 1942, under the 
name of Daily Sports News ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I can't remember. 

Mr. Rice. I show you a paper and ask you if you know what it is?- 

(Document examined by the witness.) 

Mr. Coleman. There is the date of it, down there. 

Mr. Klein. What? 

Mr. Rice. What is it ? Isn't that a lawsuit ? 

The Chairman. State wdiat it purports to be. 

Mr. Coleman. That was an injunction. 

Mr. Fogarty. "John J. Fogarty and J. E. Fogarty." 



;84 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, inviting your attention to this statement here, 
what does that say ? Read this to here. 
(Mr. Fogarty examines document.) 
Mr. Rice (reading) : 

The petition of John J. Fogarty and J. E. Fogarty, both of full age and residents 
of this city, doing business under the trade name of Daily Sports News in this 
city respectfully show that they are and have been for 4 years past engaged in 
this city in the publication twice daily of a joui'nal entitled "Daily Sports 

News." 

That's dated in 1946. 

So, therefore, you say in this pleading you have been engaged in 
that iDusiness since 1942. Isn't that right? 

Mr. P^OGARTY. If it says that I guess it is right. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Is it right or wrong? You are the witness. 

Mr. Fogarty. I can't remember. 

Mr. Rice. What was the reason for that case ? Tell us about that. 

Mr. Fogarty. Well, on advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to 
answer the question on the ground that it may tend to incriminate 
me under the laws of the State of Louisiana and the United States 
Government, especially the lottery mail statute, the United States 
•conspiracy laws, and the income-tax laws. 

Mr. Coleman. May I talk to him a minute ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Coleman. I just told him I thought he could answer that. 

The Chairman. Well, I think if he filed a petition and signed his 
name to it, I don't see why 

Mr. Coleman. He is just confused. 

The Chairman. We don't want to have any trouble with you, Mr. 
Fogarty. 

Mr. Coleman. I think he is a little confused. 

The Chairman. If you filed a petition and signed your name to it, it 
is a public record. 

Mr. Rice. The statutory period has operated on it anyhow. We'd 
like to know what happened at that time. WHiat was going on : what 
caused that situation ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I think tliat the telephone company had come into my 
place of business after working hours in the afternoon and removed 
the telephones I had in there, and I took an injunction against the 
telephone company. 

Mr. Coleman. No, this is the one against the city. 

Mr. Fogarty. Oh, that was when they tried to raid my sports sheet, 
whei-e I print my sport sheet. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, what ha])pened ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I took an injunction against them. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Who raided it? 

Mr. Fogarty. The city police. 

Mr. Rice. And what did they take? 

Mr. Fogarty. They took — that I don't remember. Whether they 
took my equipment — I was unable to print my sheet. 

Mr. Rice (handing document to counsel). Show it to him, Mr. 
Counsel. They took the telephone? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes. They took some telegraph instruments and 
transmitters and later returned them to me, and agreed not to touch 
my office any longer, after I got the injunction. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 85 

Mr. RiCF. All rijjht, sir. Tliis is your pleadin<i. Yon say here that 
3'ou have been in business for 4 years; that on August 21, 1946, the 
city police entered the j^reniises oiF American Printing Co., 424 Camp, 
which is concerned with the daily printing business and prints a daily 
sports news; that there in that i)remises, essential to the operation of 
business and more especially said journal, was one Morse telegraph 
resonator, one 8-A high-speed teletype, one sending, one receiving 
telemeter, and one en rouse type wire. Now the police went on and 
took that equipment. What was that equipment being used for? In 
connection with jirinting? 

Mr. FoGARTV. That's all. 

Mr. Rick. That's all ? 

'Mr. FoGARTY. That is all printing of my daily Sports News. 

Mr. Rick. What was coming in over these 8-A printers? The 
ticker? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Racing information. 

Mr. Rice. Where was that coming from? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Well, I don't know. We have — where the other end 
terminated. I think it was in New York or Chicago, I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Who were you buying it from? Who have you always 
bought it from ? 

Mr, FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. You refuse to answer where you were buying your in- 
formation in 1942? 

IVfr. FoGARTY. Yes, because I can't remember. 

Mr. Colemax. If you don't remember you can say that. You don't 
have to say it is refused. 

The CiiAiRJLAX. Well, it is difficult for me to think he can't remem- 
ber, who he paid for his information. 

Mr. Colemax. Wlien w^as that? 

Mr. Rice. This is 1940. Four years ago. 

Mr. FoGARTY. I can't remember. 

Mr. Colemax. Five years airo. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Who are you buying your information 
from now"? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Continental Press Service. 

Mr. Rice. How^ long have you been buying from Continental? 

Mr. Fog ARTY. I can't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Five years? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I can't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Do you remember when you started? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir; I don't. 

Mr. Rice. Can you tell from your records? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I probably could. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have your records with you? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't the subpena call for the production of your 
records ? 

Mr. Fog ARTY, Yes. sir. 

Mr. Rice. And did you produce them? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir. 

jSIr. Rice. We will call on vou to a<lvise the committee how long 
you have been buying the service from Continental. 

Mr. Colemax. You want to know how long? 



86 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever buy the service from an}' one else ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. On what ground? 

Mr. FoGARTY. That it may incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Of what offense, State offense? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Both State and Federal. 

Mr. Rice. Both State and Federal ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. How long ago did that offense occur about which you 
speak ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. You don't remember ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I don't remember ; no. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a particular offense in mind? 

Mr. FoGARTY. May I speak to my attorney ? 

The Chairman, Mr. Fogarty. to get down to it, during a certain 
time, did you buy your service from the Trans- America outfit out of 
Chicago, and what we want to know is about what happened to the 
time you were buying from Continental and Trans-America people 
qame down here and tried to muscle in on a'ou and you had some 
difficulty with them and finally you consolidated with them. That is 
the story we want to laiow about. 

Mr. Fogarty. Well, I refuse to answer that for fear it may incrimi- 
nate me. 

The Chairman. We hate to have any trouble with you, Mr. Fogarty. 

Mr. FoGARiTT. I am not looking for trouble. Senator, but I am not 
going to incriminate myself. 

The Chairman. AMiat is generally known about your operation is 
important to this committee and I don't know of any Federal offense 
that you violate in buying news off of a wire service. So I think you 
might talk witli your counsel and see if wt can't get along with this 
hearing. 

(jNIr. Fogarty confers with counsel.) 

Mr. Coleman. He is afraid he is making mistakes on dates and 
things like that. 

The Chairman. AVe are not so interested in exact dates, 

(Mr. Fogarty confers with counsel.) 

Mr. Rice. Do you have the answer now, sir ? 

INIr. Fogarty. No. sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now let me admonish you that it is just 
as much a contempt to say that you fail to remember when you do 
remember as it is to refuse to answer. 

For how many years have you been receiving your service from Con- 
tinental Press? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. I am afraid it 
might incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, if Aye are going to have trouble with Mr. 
Fogarty, we may as well get the rcord right. I think we could get 
this stoi'y very simply if you want to cooperate with the committee, 
Mr. Fogarty. I am not advisinc you what to do, but the question is 
about how many years you have bought your service from Continental 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 87 

Press or from some other press. I think it is a question I will have 
to direct you to answer. 

jNIr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer for fear of incriminating me. 

]Mr. Rice. When you say you refuse to answer for fear it may in- 
criminate you, is there any indictment outstanding against you? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Rice. Are you under indictment ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I understand. 

The Chairman. "What indictment are you under ? 

Mr. Coleman. He is under indictment in the State court for con- 
spiracy in furnishing this news to racing books and they charged him 
with conspiracy to violate the State gambling laws. What he is 
fearing here, now, is that under the Federal lottery statute, using the 
mails for a lottery, that they could do the same thing. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

The Chairman. Well, of course, we haven't asked anything, Mr. 
Counsel, about the use of the mails. 

Mr. Rice. What is the date of the indictment, approximately ? 

Mr. Coleman. That indictment is a good ways back. I don't know 
the date of it. It must be around the date of that suit. 

Mr, Rice. The indictment is still pending? 

Mr. Coleman. Still pending. 

Mr. Rice. Since 1946? 

Mr. Coleman. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. How do you account for that ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't know. It came up, and there were a lot of 
technicalities and they haven't bothered us any more. It is open, 
though. 

Mr. Rice. You say the indictment is open ? 

Mr. Coleman. It is open ; 1 looked at it a month or two ago. 

The Chairman. Please get on with the questioning and see what we 
can get. 

Mr. Rice. Xow, then, you say at the moment you are receiving your 
service from Continental? 

( No response. ) 

Mr. Rice. Now: this month. 

Mr. Fogarty. I didn't say that. 

Mr. Rice. Do you say that ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No. 1 refuse to answer 

Mr. Rice. Well, are you receiving that ? 

Mr. Fogarty. 1 refuse to answer the question for fear it will in- 
criminate me. 

]Mr, Rice. You refuse to say where you are getting it now ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I will have to direct you to answer that question : 
where you are getting it. 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Rice. On what ground do you refuse to answer that question? 

Mr. Fogarty. For fear it may incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Let's go on with the questions. 

Mr. Rice. In connection with the same indictment? 

Mr. Fogarty. Exactly. 



88 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Counsel, would you instruct the witness with respect 
to the indictment now pending '( 

Mr. Coleman. He is afraid of indictment under the Federal court, 
under a conspiracy to violate the lottery statute. 

Mr. Rice. He_ anticipates an indictment in the Federal court. Is 
that correct? 

Mr. Coleman. He fears Federal indictment. 

Mr. Rice. There is no pending indictment in Federal court. Is 
that correct? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Correct. 

Mr. Rice. I see. That is your reason for refusing, because you 
anticipate indictment ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. I will ask the Chair to instruct him. 

The Chairman. He has been directed. You ask the questions 
and we will get on. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, at this time, are you furnishing service to any 
subscribers ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question for fear it may. 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. That is by "you,'" you mean the Daily Sports News. 
That is what you mean, Mr. Rice ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. FoGARTY. That is right. 

The Chairman. You refuse to answer that question ? 

Mr. Fogarty. That's right. 

The Chairman. You will be directed to answer. Do you refuse to 
follow the direction? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. Do you refuse to answer even though directed by 
the chairman to answer? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. May I ask, to begin with, what is the Daily Sports 
News? Is it a corporation? 

Mr. Fogarty. It is a partnership. 

The Chairman. Of you and your son ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes, sir. 

The Chairjman. And who else is in the partnership ? 

Mr. Fogarty. That's all. 

The Chairman. You own half and your son owns half ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Fogarty. J. E. Fogarty. 

The Chairman. All riglit, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Who are the employees of the Daily Sports News? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. Name one. 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that for fear it may incriminate 
them. I refuse to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Do you refuse to answer that question? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. On wliat ground? 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer it. 

(No response.) 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE ' 89 

The Chairman. Do you refuse to follow the direction of the chair- 
man ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes. 
■ The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Rice. Let me ask you if in 1948 you did not liave an employee 
by the name of Steincamp? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. I can^t remember 
that far back. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had aiT employee by the name of Stein- 
camp? 

JNIr. Fogarty. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. When? 

JNIr. "Fogarty. I can't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Is he employed by you now ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No. 

Mr. Rice. How many years ago was it that he left you? 

]\Ir. Fogarty. I don't remember, 

IVIr. Rice. Would it refresh your recollection any to tell you that 
he was on your payroll in 1943 and 1944? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Would that be a fair statement? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Is that wrong? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Now, about Frank E. Stanton, did he ever work for you? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question for fear it may in- 
criminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, you are ordered to answer that question. 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer it. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Frank E. Stanton? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Rice. On what ground ? 

Mr. Fogarty. For fear it may incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, you will be ordered to answer it. 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer it. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Ralph Emory ? 

JNIr. Fogarty. I do not. 

Mr, Rice. Did he ever work for you ? 

Mr, Fogarty. I don't know him. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Anthony Marcello? 

Mr. Coleman. Anthony Marcello ? 

Mr. Rice. Antliony Marcello. 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir ; I do not, 

JNIr, Rice. You don't know Anthony Marcello ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Anthony ; no. 

Mr, Rice. Do you know Carlos Marcello ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question for fear it may in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Rice. On what grounds? 

The Chairman. Well, let's don't argue about the grounds. You 
are directed to answer the question. 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer it. 

Mr. Coleman. Excuse me; it will be understood it is on the same 
grounds right through ? 



<90 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The CHAnaiAN. Ali right. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Does Carlos Marcello have any interest in 
your company ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir- 
Mr. EiCE. Has he ever received any money from your company ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to ansAver that question for fear it may in- 
criminate me. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Has Joseph Marcello any interest? 

Mr. FoGARTY- I refuse to answer that question for fear it may in- 
-criminate me. 

The Chairman. You are directed to answer. 

Mr. FoG.\ETT. I refuse to answer it. 

The Chairman. Xow, let's get at this, now : I take it, to show the 
relevancy of this, Mr. Rice, you are asldng these questions because 
<of the allegation, or the indication here that Mr, Fogarty had a com- 
pany and then that there was a rival wire service set-up. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

The Chairman. Will you state for the record just the relevancy of 
these questions and what you are trying to prove so that we can see 
whether they are pertinent or not ? 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, sir, is it a fair statement to say that prior to 
1946 you had no competition in your area in the business you were in — 
the wire service? 

Mr. Coleman. Did you understand the question ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No. 

Mr. Rice. Were there any competing companies? Were you the 
•only one here in that type of business in this area ? 

Mr. Fogarty. What year was that ? 

Mr. Rice. Before 1946. 

ISIr. FoGxLrty. I don't remember that. 1 can't remember that. 

Mr. Rice. You can't remember whether you were ever in competi- 
tion or not? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had a competing company here with a 
wire-service business? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question for fear it may in- 
^^riminate me. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Fogarty and Mr. Coleman, can it be 
-stipulated and agreed that when he refuses to answer a question that 
the chairman has also directed him to answer the question ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes. 

The Chairman, Do you understand that, Mr. Fogarty ? 

Mr. Fogaety. Yes. 

The Chairman. All right. Let's get ahead with the questioning. 

Mr. Rice. Would it be a fair statement to say that you had no com- 
petition from 1944 to 1946 ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question for fear it may in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Rice, Tliat in 1946 a competitive wire service started here under 
Joe Poretto? 

Mr, Fogartt. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Joe Poretto ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 91 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. That several of your customers were lost by you during 
July and August of 1946? 

Mr. FoGARTY, I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. I will ask you if it is not a fact that Poretto's wire service 
was known as the Southern News Publishing Co. ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Were you here a few minutes ago ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. AVhere? 

Mr. Rice. In the courtroom. 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes. 

Mr. CoLEMAX. He wasn't in here. 

Mr. Rice. Did you hear the testimony of the Western Union man? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I have been here since 9 : 30 this morning, but I have 
been outside. 

Ml-. Rice. Have yon ever heard of Southern News Publishing Co.? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. You refuse to answer whether you have ever heard of the 
Southern News Publishing Co.? 

Mr. FoGARTY. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Had you heard of the Southern News Publishing Co. 
in 1946? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mv. Rice. Now, sir, on August 20, 1946, there was a raid on the 
Southern News Publishing Co. by the New Orleans police at 204 
Liberty Building, St. Charles Street, at which time arrested w^ere 
Louis Steincamp, Joseph Trovato, Ralph Emory of Cicero, 111., whose 
father was known to be associated with Al Capone, Anthony Carollo, 
and Franky Stanton. Do you know about that ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. From reading it in the newspapers; yes, 

]\Ir. Rice. What do you know about that? 

]\Ir. FoGARTY. Only what I read in the newspapers. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't that a competitive wire service to yours? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. What did you read in the papers? 

Mr. FoGARTY. About the raid that was made on the place, 

Mr. Rice. What did it say? 

Mr. FoGARTY. What you just said. 

Mr. Rice. What did 'it say? 

Mr. Fog ARTY. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. When did you read it ? 

Mr. Fogarty. The day it was published in the paper. 

Mr. Rice. How do you remember that but you can't remember 
whether 3^011 had competition at that time? 

Mr. Fogarty. Because you refreshed my mind by just reading it 
there to me. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. I will read j^ou a few more things and see 
if that refreshes your recollection : 

That among the equipment found at that time in addition to the ticlver was 
a microphone to teleplione race results tliat Poretto, in his pleading in a subse- 
quent suit, showed that his telegraph wire was operated through Brooklyn, New 
York City, Chicago, and St. Louis to New Orleans. 

Have you ever heard of that wire service 2 

6S958 — 51 — pt. S 7 



92 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. FoGARTY. No; I don't remember that. 

Mr. Rice. You don't remember that part? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, the very next day your organization was raid- 
ed ; was it not ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I was raided, but I don't remember the day it was 
raided. 

Mr. Rice. August 21, 1946. AVho was picked up at that time? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Were you? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I think 1 was. I think that is the cliarge we were 
speaking of here a few minutes ago. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Was there any publicity at that time to 
the effect that the raid on your place was a fake? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Was a fake? 

Mr. Rice. Was a fake; yes. 

Mr. FoGARTY. It couldn't have been much of a fake if I was charged. 

The Chairman. Were you at 425 Campt Street at that time ? 

Mr. Fog ARTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is that where you are now ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. I will read you an excerpt from a newspaper of January 
18, 1951, referring to this event: 

That on August 1946 following police raids on Fogarty's and Poretto's estab- 
lishments, a man named Waterman charged that the mayor and the police 
had favored Fogarty over Poretto in the raids and that the raid on Fogarty's 
place was a fake. 

Did you ever hear that before ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I believe I remember reading something similar to 
that. 

Mr. Rice. Was it a fake ? 

Mr. Fogarty. How could it be a fake when I was charged in the 
courts ? 

The Chairman. What happened to you ? You were arrested ? Did 
you get fined or anything? 

Mr. Fogarty. No ; the case is still pending. 

Mr. Rice. Nothing ever happened? Did you get your equipment 
back ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. How did that happen ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No. From the raid ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. They still have it ? 

Mr. Fogarty. They still have it — the police. 

Mr. Rice. You never got it back ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No. No, I never did get any of it back. Western 
Union got their equipment back. What little they took from me 
was just minor stuff that I didn't care whether they returned or not. 

Mr. Rice. All right. At that time, the operators of the Southern 
News were Poretto, Ralph Emoi-y, Frank Coppola, Anthony Carollo, 
Anthony Marcello, and Joseph Marcello, Jr. 

The Chairman. Do you know that to be true ? Did you hear that ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 93 

]\Ir. FoGARTY. No, sir ; I don't know anything about what they did — 
anything about their business. That's their business. 

Mr. Rice. Now, within a few months, the service wliich was being 
received by that outfit was transferred to 117 Huey P. Long Avenue, 
Gretna, from the Southern News Publishing Co. 

Mr. FoGARTY (hiughs). 

The Chairman. Ask him if he knows? 

Mr. Rice. What do you know about that? 

Mr. Fog ARTY. I don't know anything about it. 

Mr. Rice. There has been testimony here this afternoon from West- 
ern Union- that for a time they operated at the St. Charles Street 
address, Liberty Building, and then transferred the service to 117 
Huey P. Long Avenue. You have an operation there ; do you not? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that for fear it may incriminate 
me. 

The CiiAiRMAX. Let's get the place where w^e are talking about. He 
has an operation where. 

Mr. Rice. 117 Huey P. Long Avenue. 

The Chairman. Gretna ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer the question for fear it may in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Don't you lease space there ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 

]Mr. Rice. That on or about December 1946. there was either a 
muscling or forcing into your organization by this outfit, resulting in 
a merger, and thereafter the interest in your organization was 
Fogarty, 25 percent; Anthony Marcello, 37l^ percent, and Joseph 
Ma reel lo, 371/2 percent. Is that right ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. What do you know about that ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question for fear it may in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Anything at all ? 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Rice, apparently what you are trying to 
bring out by these questions is that Mr. Fogarty and his son, in the 
Daily Sports News, had the Continental, and about that time Poretto 
and Carollo and Marcello et al. formed the — what is the name of the 
other one ? Southern News ? 

Mr. Rice. Southern News. 

The Chairman. Southern News. They had a place at Gretna — 
whatever that address was. 

Mr. Rice. 117 Huey P. Long. 

The Chairman. li7 Huey P. Long. First the Southern Sports 
News was raided and then short!}' after that — that was in 1946; 
w as it ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

The Chairman. Shortly after that, why, Mr. Fogarty's place was 
raided, and then there came about a combined operation at 117 Huey 
Long Avenue, Gretna, composed of Fogarty, Anthony, and Joseph 
Marcello. Is that what 3'ou are asking the witness about? 
The Chairman. That is the story. 

Mr. Fogarty. You want me to answer that ? 
Mr. Rice. Would you like to tell us about that? 



94 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question for fear it may in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Rice. What is the number of your telephone at home? 

Mr. FoGARTY. University 3076. 

Mr. Rice. University 3076. Do you also have a telephone, Ray- 
mond 2723? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Does the Daily Sports News have a telephone? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes, sir. No ; not that number. You have the wrong 
number. 

Mr. Rice. What number? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Raymond 3723. 

Mr. Rice. Raymond 3723. Thank you. It's a transposition in 
typing. (He does know something.) 

Now sir, do you know Butsy O'Brien, over in Florida? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Have you received person-to-person telephone calls from 
Butsy O'Brien over in Florida? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't Butsy O'Brien the operator of the Intra-State News, 
which services the racing news? 

Mr. FoGARTY. That I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of Butsy O'Brien? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever talked with Butsy O'Brien on the tele- 
phone ? 

Mr. FoGARTY I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it a fact that during the time the S. & G. Gambling 
Syndicate in Miami was cut off from the wire service in Februaiy 
and jSIarch of 1949 that you talked with Butsy O'Brien on the tele- 
phone about that cut-off? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it a fact that there was an effort made to receive 
wire service from your organization into Florida at that time? 

ISIr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Well, I think they said thej^ did get it from New 
Orleans; didn't they? 

Mr. Rice. Do you know a man named Eddie Mooney? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir ; I don't. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it a fact that Eddie Mooney came over from Florida 
at that time ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I don't know Eddie Mooney. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an office in the Baiter Building? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What is the number of that ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. 507. 

Mr. Rice. And any other room number? How many rooms do 
you have ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Just two rooms. I have a little anteroom. 

Mr. Rice. 506 and 507 ; are they not ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. That's right ; it's an anteroom. 

Mr. Rice. You leased those rooms? 
Mr. FoGARTY. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. How much do you pa}^ ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 95 

Mr. FoGARTY. I doivt I'emember. 

Mr. Rice. Plow mucli are you payiiifj now ? 

Mr. FoGARTT. I don't know wliat the rent is. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know wliat rent you pay at the Baiter Build- 
in o;^ From whom do you rent? 

Mr. FoGARTT. From the Baiter Building; Bluford Baiter. 

Mr. Rice. How often do you pay rent? 

Mr. FoGARTY. My boy takes care of that. I don't worry about what 
the rent is. In fact, I don't know what the amount of the rent is. 

]VIr. Rice. Is tliere a man named Marzoni in the Baiter Building? 

Mr. FoGARi^\ Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What does he do? 

Mr. FoGARTY. He is an auditor. 

Mr. Rice. Is he associated with you ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No. He works for me. He has several different con- 
cerns he works for. I am one of them, 

Mr. Rice. He handles your books? 

]Mr. FoGARTY. Yes, sir. 

JNIr. Rice. Do you know Eddie INIooney ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it a fact that during that cut-off of the wire service 
in Florida that Mooney came over here and used the telephone in 
Marzoni's office to call race results to Florida ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I never heard of Eddie ISIooney in my life. 

The Chairman. Did somebody do that? Do you know? 

]\Ir. FoGARTY. I don't remember that at all. 

Mr. Rice. Would you say that that did not happen? 

Mr. FoGARTT. I refuse to answer that question. 

The CiiAiRMAx. Well, the question is whether somebody got news 
out of the Daily Sports News and then from this auditor's office called 
it into Florida. 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Did you get some money from the S, & G. Invest- 
ment Co., or S. & G. Syndicate in Florida? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the Bank Club ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that the Bank Club is located at 117 Huey P. 
Long Avenue ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. In the same building where you have an operation? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. And that the Bank Club is a gambling casino ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Well, did you ever hear of the Bank Club? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. How far is that address from the sheriff's office there? 

INIr. FoGARTY. I don't know. I live in New Orleans. I don't know 
anything about Gretna. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know where the sheriff's office is in Gretna ? 

Mr. Fog ARTY. Sure. Everyone that goes to Gretna and sees that 
knows it's the city hall. It is close to the city hall but how far it is, 
I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. It's right across the street; isn't it? 



96 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. FoGARTY. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Could it be? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Do yon g,o there every day ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How frequently do yon go there ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I haven't been in Gretna, probably, in 2 years now. 

Mr. Rice. The Daily Sports News has an office there; does it not? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Neuhauser? 

Mr. FoGARTY. That's my sister, Mrs. Neuhanser. 

Mr. Rice. What business do you have with her? What is her first 
name? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Mrs. Claire Neuhanser. 

Mr. Rice. Where does she live ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. On Nelson Street. 

Mr. Rice. What business do you have with her ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. The only business I have is when my parents died 
they left us property, and that — — 

Mr. CoLEMAx. That is merely a succession. 

Mr. FoGARTY. That is merely a succession. That's all that is. 

Mr. Coleman. That is an estate. 

Mr. Rice. Do you receive income from that source ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What are the investments which produce this income? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Rent. They are rental properties. 

Mr. Rice. Where is that located ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Different parts of the town. I think there are five 
or six pieces of property. 

Mr. Rice. Five or six pieces of property. 

Mr. FoGARTY. Small properties ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. That was left to you. You inherited it? 

Mr. FotJARTY. Isn't there a copy in the folder I gave you there? 

The Chairman. Where is the folder vou gave us? I haven't seen 
that. 

Mr. FoGARTY. That's all that it was : A few pieces of property that 
was left by my father and mother. 

The Chairman. Is this Daily Sports News a profitable business? 
You make a good deal of money out of it ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. Senator. 

Mr. Rice. Let's see if this refreshes your recollection any. I am 
reading from a record which shows that in 19^:0 you were connected 
with the Crescent City Publishing Co. Is that correct ? 

(No response from Mr. Fogarty.) 

Mr. Rice. You then lived at 3507 Nashville Avenue? 

Mr. Fogarty. That is the same apartment. That's a duplex. 

Mr. Rice. In 1941 you were connected with Daily Sports News, 507 
Baiter Building. Is that right ? 

Mr. Fogarty. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, you purchased news service from the Enterprise 
Publishing Co. in 1941, paying them $10,365.48. Is that right? 

Mr. Fogarty, I refuse to answer that question. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 97 

Tlie Chairman. Well, now, I didn't get the difference in the names 
of these companies. Yon had Crescent News and then Daily Sports 
News? Is that all the same? one company went into another? 

Mr. FoGAKTY. That's right ; just a change of name. 

Mr. Rice. With whom did you do business in the Enterprise Pub- 
lishing Co. in 1941 or any other time? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Where was the Enterprise Publishing Co. located? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. AVas it in Chicago ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. In 1941 did you have the following employees, F. R. 
Stanton ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr, Rice. Beard, Gordon, Mulcara, Gaines, LeGuard, Steincamp, 
Oakmore, Clement, Weale}-, Croninburg? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice, Do you remember any of those people? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mv. Rice. Now, sir, isn't it true that Stanton and Steincamp were 
later arrested while working for Joe Poretto? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Did you read that in the newspapers? 

Mr. Fogarty. I can't remember that arrest of 10 years ago. I 
can't remember 10 years ago, who was raided in a friend's place. 

Mr, Rice. The arrest was in '40 ? 

The Chairman. Let's put it this way : That some of the employees 
you had working for you when 3^011 were at — before 1946; did they 
later get arrested or did they later go to work for the Southern Sports 
News? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. Senator. 

The Chairman. All right. Let's go to another w^itness. 

Well, Mr. Coleman, just as the matters stand now, why we are in 
difficulty with this witness. You talk it over with him. 

Mr. Coleman. I will do that, Senator. 

The Chairman. While we are here, if he wants to do something 
about it, all right. But you remain under subpeha, Mr. Fogarty. 

Mr. Coleman. You want us back tomorrow? 

Ml". Rice. Before he leaves : Has George Reyer ever been on the 
payroll of Daily Sports News? 

^Ir. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. How about James INIoran, alias James Brocato ? 

Mr. FoGARTY". I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Well, here is the question : Did you have different 
partnei"s after both wire services were closed up and the new business 
was started than you had before they were closed up ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. Senator. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know who George Reyer is? 

Mr. Fogarty. Ex-chief of police. New Orleans. 

Mr, Rice. What is he doing now? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Does he have any interest in the Daily Sports News? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Does he receive money from it? 



98 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. FoGARTT. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Rice. Has he ever received money from it? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. He has no prasent connection ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to ans^^'er that question. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it a fact he has been receiving a hundred dollars a 
week from the Daily Sports ever since he left his job with the police 
department ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Has he received anything from the Daily Sports? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. AVell, Mr. Fogarty, you and your son now have 
the Daily Sports News? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. His name is Gene. How long have you and j^our 
son, Gene, had the Daily Sports News? 

Mr. Fogarty. I can't remember that. 

The Chairman. That is, how long has it been since you had some 
other partners in there with you ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I have never had any other partners. I have always 
been on my own. I have been a "lone wolf" ever since I have been 
in the business. I took my boy in with me a few years ago after he 
married. 

The Chairman. After your business was closed up and started up 
again, didn't you have some other partners besides you and Gene ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You were the only ones ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes, sir. 

The ChxVIRman. Do you have anybody named Marcello in your 
business ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Is Marcello a partner ? 

Mr. Coleman. Excuse me, sir. [Confers with witness] 

All right. 

The Chairman. Wasn't it true that after you started up business 
again your son Gene wasn't even in the partnership, for a while? 

Mr. Fogarty. I think I said that I took him in after he got mar- 
ried. I can't remember just how many years he is in. It's not a very 
long time. 

The Chairman. Anyway, after you started up after you were 
closed down and the wire service started up again, wasn't the part- 
nership you and Anthony Marcello and Joseph Marcello? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. And your son Gene was not even in the partner- 
ship? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. How did you get the Marcellos out and get Gene 
in? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that one. 

The Chairman. Do they still have any interest in the Daily 
Sports News ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Do you know Anthony Marcello ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 99 

Tlie Chairman. Do 3^011 know Joseph Marcello? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I refuse to answer that (question. There are so many 
of them. 

The Chairman. I think there is no nse asking him any more ques- 
tions. 

It is regrettable that you feel that you can't coo})erate with this 
connnittee. 

That will be all, Mr. Coleman. 

Ml". Coleman. Are we oixlered back tomorrow at 9 :30 ? 

The Chairman. You are only ordered back if your witness wants 
to 

Mr. EiCE. Yes. 

The Chairman, Yes; all right. You are ordered back tomorrow 
at 9 :30. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH PORETTO, NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY P. M. FLANAGAN, ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ^ 

Mr. Poretto. I do. 

Mr. Flanagan. At the outset, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make 
the statement that I appreciate the duty imposed upon you by Senate 
Resolution 202, and I likewise would like the committee to understand 
the duty imposed u])on me in representing my client. 

The Chairman. We appreciate that, Mr. Flanagan. 

Mr. Flanagan. Any remarks that I may say or any statement, and 
the manner in which the statements are made, or the manner. in which 
the questions are answered, I want it understood it is not to be con- 
strued as a discourtesy to this committee. 

Tlie Chairman. That is very thouglitful of you, Mr. Flanagan. 

]\Ir. Flanagan. I would like for the record to show the introduction 
of Senate Resolution 202 into the record insofar as this witness is con- 
cerned. I believe it was offered at the beginning of this morning's 
session, but I want it to apply and to be made a part and parcel of 
the record as to this witness. 

The Chairman. As to this w^itness, w^e will make the Senate resolu- 
tion a part of the record. We wall make the resolution of the committee 
authorizing this meeting, and authorizing the chairman to direct one 
member of the committee to hold the meeting, part of the record. 

(The resolution referred to was made a part of the record, and is 
as follows:) 

Special Committee To Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 

December 22, 1950. 
RcKolved, That the chairman of this committee be and hereby is authorized at 
his discretion to appoint one or more subcommittees of one or more Senators, of 
whom one member shall be a quorum for the purpose of taking testimony and 
all other committee acts, to hold hearings at such time and places as the chair- 
man might designate, in furtherance of the committee's investigations of organ- 
ized crime, in the vicinities of the cities of Tampa, Fla., and New Orleans, La. 

EsTES Kefauver, Chainnan. 
Herbert R. O'Conor. 
Lester C. Hunt. 



100 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Flanagan. In reading Senate Resolution 202, I noticed that 
it is composed of five members. 

The Chairman. That is correct. 

Mr. Flanagan. And inasmuch as there is only one member present 
at this time, I want to object as to the ^\^ant of a quorum. 

The Chairman. Your objection will be noted. 

Mr. Flanagan. And we reserve all of our rights. 

The Chairman. And overruled, because this hearing by one mem- 
ber has been authorized by the whole committee, which comes within 
the terms of the Christoffel case, a case by the United States Supreme 
Court. 

Mr. Flanagan. Mr. Chairman, am I correct when I say that the 
section 1 of the resolution provides that this committee has the right 
to investigate State laws as well as any Federal laws ? 

The Chairman. No, sir. It only has the right to investigate trans- 
actions in interstate commerce ^v'hich are in violation of the Federal 
laws — of the Federal Government — or of the laws of the States where 
the transactions take place. 

Mr. Flanagan. Your Honor, I have a further statement to make. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Flanagan. The newspapers, for the last 2 weeks or more, have 
contained statements as to the activities of the witness as a member 
of a national racket gang. That particular statement appeared yester- 
day in the Item newspaper and it stated, as furnished by the Kef auver 
men and as well as other criminal organizations, and I believe also in 
the past few weeks, there has been a lot of prominence given to Mr. 
Poretto as to his private life. It follows that the questions the com- 
mittee will probably ask the witness will be of two classes : First, ques- 
tions the answer to which might tend to incriminate him, and, second^ 
questions which are not pertinent to this inquiry. The witness has 
requested me to state to the committee that he will, to those questions 
wliich may be pertinent to the inquiry the answers to which may tend 
to incriminate him, refuse to make answer ; and that he will, further, 
refuse to make answer to all questions which are not pertinent to this 
inquiry which seek to pry only into his personal affairs. As to the 
self-incrimination, we are relying on the various Supreme Court 
decisions and the case of KUhvrn v. Thompson^ which held that 
neither of the bodies, referring to either House, would have any right 
to possess any power of making inquiries into the private affairs of 
citizens. 

I woukl also like the record to show that there is present in the court^ 
and I believe there was some statement appearing in the newspapers, 
that the district attorney of the State, the United States attorney, 
law-enforcement officers, were invited to this hearing. 

The Chairman. Well, sir, this is an open hearing. I don't know if 
they are present, but they have a right to be here. 

Mr. Flanagan. And that the record shows that they are present 
in the courtroom. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Your name, sir? 

Mr. PoRETTO. Joe Poretto. 

Mr. Rice. "Where do you live ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. 28 Soniat Place. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 101 

Mr. HicE. How old are you ? 

Mr. PoREiTo. I am 44 years old. 

Mr. Rice. Where were you born? 

Mr. PoRE'no. New Orleans. 

The Chairman. Is that Soniat Place in New Orleans? 

Mr. PoRETi^o. Jefferson Parish. 

Mr. Rice. Have you lived here all of your life ? 

Mr. PoRETTO, Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been in Houston ? 

Mr. PoRETro. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well noAv, just a minute. You mean you refuse 
to answer whether you have ever been in Houston, Tex., or not? Is 
that right? 

Mr. Poretto. I have answered the question, Senator. 

Mr. Rice. Now, are you under indictment? 

The Chairman. Well, just a minute. Counsel, I will have to order 
your client to answer that question. 

Mr. Flanagan. Well, Your Honor, this section 1 of the resolution 
provides that you are investigating any activities, transactions, which 
are in violation of the laws of the United States or any State which 
are of an interstate character. The witness certainly has a right to 
rel}^ on his constitutional privilege. All of these questions, however 
innocent they may look, if the witness answers any one of them, that 
may be the connecting link in the chain of evidence necessary to either 
prosecute him in the Federal courts or in the State courts. 

Mr. Rice. Yes ; but this isn't a forum for speculation. In order to 
assert his privilege he has to have a fixed situation in mind upon which 
he asserts that privilege. 

The Chairman. There is no use arguing the legal technicalities 
here. Let's ask the questions. 

Anyway, you are ordered to answer the question whether you have 
ever been to Houston, Tex. 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds I may 
tend to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a criminal record? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I 
may tend to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
I may tend to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Rice. Have you served time ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds I 
may tend to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Rice, Are you under indictment? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
I may tend to incriminate myself. 

The Chairman. Well, if you are under indictment you have already 
taken one step toward incriminating yourself. That is a public 
record. 

All right. You refuse to answer. 

Now, you understand that you are being ordered to answer these 
questions that counsel has put to you. and can we have the under- 
standing that unless I order the question withdrawn that I will direct 



102 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

liim to answer the question, and if he refuses to answer it in the first 
instance that he will refuse to follow the direction of the Chair ? 

Mr. Flanagan. It is understood that he refuses to answer those 
questions because he is standing on his constitutional privilege. 

The Chairman. I know. It then becomes my duty to direct him 
to answer each of the questions. That is, after he refuses to answer, 
I direct him to answer, and then he refuses to follow the direction. 

Mr. Flanagan. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Can that be understood, that he is directed to 
answer each of the questions he refuses ? 

Mr. Flanagan. He refuses, relying on his constitutional privilege. 

The Chairman. Yes; that is correct. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, going back to the question about whether you 
have ever been arrested or not, do you assert your privilege because 
you are under a pending indictment ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
I may tend to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Rice. Are there any special circumstances connected with that 
situation which gives you the right to assert the privilege? 

Mr. Flanagan. Mr. Chairman, I don't know. He says "that situa- 
tion," but he didn't explain any situation. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. He has a situation in mind which will incriminate 
him. If he doesn't, he must answer. 

Mr. Flanagan. Yes, His situation would be based on what you 
have. 

Mr. Rice. The question is: Has he ever been arrested? If he 
answers that, he takes the position that it will incriminate him of 
another offense. This other offense is what I am driving at. Now, 
sir, do you understand that ? 

The Chairman. Let's get it a little bit clearer. The question was 
whether you liad ever been arrested. You refused to answer. Now, 
just go on and ask the question, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

How long ago did the transaction occur that you base your refusal 
to answer the question on ? 

Mr. Flanagan. Mr. Chairman, I don't believe that is a fair question. 

The Chairman. How long ago did something happen which makes 
him afraid any testimony now would incriminate him? 

Mr. Flanagan. Everybody knows the purpose of this committee, 
and the purpose for which he was called, and certainly we all know 
what you are driving at : trying to get violations of either State or 
Federal law ; and, with that in mind and with the privilege guaranteed 
to him under the Constitution, he can't have any exact thing or particu- 
lar situation in mind until some pertinent questions are asked him. 

Mr. Rice. He has a pertinent question. The question is: Has he 
ever been arrested? 

The Chairman. He has refused to answer that. Let's go on to 
another question. 

Mr. PoRETTO. I have answered the question. 

The Chairman. Let's go on to the next. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, sir, what business are you in now? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer that question on the gi'ounds it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. What business were you in 10 years ago ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 103 

Mr. PoRETTo. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. KicE. Have you ever been in Chicago? 

]Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer that question on tlie grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are you married ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. Yes ; I am married. 

Mv. Rice. How long have you been married ? 

]Mi-. PoRETTO. Close to 3 years. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, have you ever been connected with the Southern 
Kews Publishing Co. ? 

JNIr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me, 

Mr. Rice. Were j^ou connected with the Southern News Publishing 
Co. in 1946 ? _ 

Ml'. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. "Well, now, we understand. You just say you re- 
fuse to answer, and we will understand the grounds. 

Mr. Flanagan. That it is on the grounds that it might incriminate 
him, or the questions are not pertinent to the issue. 

The Chairman. And it might incriminate him. All right. 

Mr. Rice. In 1946, did you leave Houston and come to New Orleans 
and start the Southern News Publishing Co.? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you send $5,000 to Trans- America in 1946 for a news 
service ? 

Mr. PoRETio. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you send $5,000 to Trans-America in Chicago in 1946 
for any purpose ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of Trans- America ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you contract to purchase wire service from Trans- 
America in 1946? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer, 

Mr, Rice. Did you ever have any dealings with Western Union in 
1946? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer, 

Mr. Rice. Were you not billed by Western Union for furnishing 
wire service in 1946? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer, 

Mr. Rice. Were you arrested on August 20, 1946, while operating 
the Southern News Publishing Co. ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

The C'HAiRMAN. Let me ask one thing of either the witness or coun- 
sel. Southern News Publishing Co. — is that a corporation or a part- 
nership, or can you tell us what it was ? 

Mr. Flanagan. I have no knowledge, myself. 

The Chair3ian. Can you say ? 

Mr. Poretto. And I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. You just refuse to tell us anything about it? 

Mr. PoREiTo. That is correct, sir. 



104 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Did not the New Orleans Police Department, on August 
20, 1946, arrest you, Louis Steincamp, Joseph Trovato, and Ralph 
Emory ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Anthony Carollo? 

Mr. PoRETi'O. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. And Frank Stanton? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know any of those men ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Have you heard of any of them? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you file an injunction, or was an injunction tiled on 
your behalf on August 2'^, 1946, entitled ^'•Joseph Poretto v. Ilerve 
Racivitch^ District Attorney for the Parish of Orleans''' f 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Well, suppose by reference, if this is a certified 
copy, which it appears to be, of the State of Louisiana, Civil District 
Court for the Parish of Orleans, Docket No. 5, No. 270,958, the chair- 
man will put this in the record. It appears to be a petition filed 
August 23, 1946, and is a public record. 

Mr. Flanagan. Mr. Chairman, I object to any documents being 
put in the record unless it is identified and unless it is certified ac- 
cording to the acts of Congress. 

The Chairman. All right. Your objection is noted. 

This will be put in the record as an exhibit; anyway, it seems to 
have some certification on it here. Let's mark it "Exhibit No. 13." 

(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 13" and is on file with 
the committee.) 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Charles Palermo, a notary public? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever acknowledge a legal instrument? 

Mr. Poretto. [No response.] 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever sign a legal instrument, a legal document, 
before a notary public? 

Mr. Poretto. [No response.] 

The Chairman. Mr. Rice, if you want to read a part of that 
record and ask the witness about it 

Mr. Rice. Did you 

Mr. Poretto. I said I refused to answer. 

The Chairman. State what the petition is about and read the part 
of it 

Mr. Rice. Did you not state in the petition filed August 23, 1946, 
in part ? — 

That Joseph Poretto was in the business of the Southern Publishing Co. and 
called for the return of certain teletype printing machine, teleprinter, and other 
articles set out ; that on August 20, 1946, the police of the city of New Orleans 
raided the premises at 204 Liberty Building, on St. Charles Street in this city, 
and received the teletype writing machine and teletype printing machine, 
which is a part of and was connected to a telegraph press wire operating 
through Brooklyn, New York City, Cliicago, and St. Louis, to New Orleans. 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Were you connected in any way with a telegraph Avire 
operating through Brooklyn, New York City, Chicago, and St. Louis 
to New Orleans ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 105 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true tlnit at that time you had four employees, 
namely, Louis Steincamp, Joseph Travoto, Ealph Emory, and 
Anthony Carollo ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Ralph Emory ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true that he is from Cicero, 111. ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know where he is now I 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr, Rice. Did you ever know him 1 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the Interstate Press Wire 
Service ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true that you stated that, in connection with the 
Interstate Press AVire Service furnished you for accumulating news 
necessary for publication, leased same from Western Union Co., you 
accumulated machines to the value of $1,500 ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did you ever get those machines back? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer, 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever lose them ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever do any business at 204 Liberty Building, 
315 St. Charles Street ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice, Have you ever had any transactions with John S. Water- 
man ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever paid him any money ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer, 

Mr. Rice. Did you pay him any money in 1945 ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr, Rice. Did you pay him any money in 1946? 

Mr, Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on, 

Mr, Rice, AVere your partners in this wire-service enterprise Ralph 
Emory, Frank Capella, Anthony Carollo, Anthony Carollo, and 
Joseph Marcello, Jr. ^ 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer, 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Carlos Marcello ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer, 

Mr, Rice. Do you know Anthony Marcello ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear of any of these fellows ? 

Mr, Poretto. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know John Fogarty ? 

Mr, Poretto, I refuse to answer, 

Mr, Rice, Have you ever transacted any business with Fogarty? 

Mr. Poretto, I refuse to answer. 



106 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EiCE. Is it not true that in December of 1946 the organization 
with which you were associated, the Southern News Publishing Co., 
merged with the Fogarty Daily Press operation ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Well, I think we have had enough for this. I think 
for the record, so that when the matter is being considered by the 
Senate and court, I should advise you, Mr. Poretto, and your good 
counsel, Mr. Flanagan, that, if the Senate finds you in contempt and 
you are convicted, each refusal may constitute, does constitute, a 
separate offense, so that one can be added on to the other and they 
don't have to run concurrently. 

Do you w^ant to make a general statement about what the purpose 
of these questions is and what you are undertaking to bring out by 
this witness, to show the purpose of them ? 

Mr. Flanagan, Mr. Chairman, I believe the record already showed, 
and I believe it was understood, that the witness" refusal to answer 
was based on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate 
him or that the question was not pertinent to the issue before the 
committee. Is that correct? 

The Chairman. Yes; that is correct. Let the record show that. 

There is quite a long bit of report here; but, according to what 
we have here, your connections with certain of the so-called Chicago 
mob, or group, are reputed to have begun at Cicero, 111., and that you 
were in Houston, Tex., where you attempted to set up a bootleg 
wire service, but that you were run out of there ; that you had a con- 
nection with certain people of the Trans-America Wire Service of 
Chicago, and that in 1946 formed a corporation — I mean a partner- 
shi]) — with Ralph Emory, Frank Capella, Anthony Carollo, and 
Anthony Marcello, and Joseph Marcello, Jr., all of whom, or most 
of whom, are well-known criminal characters, called the Southern 
News Publishing Co. ; that your place got raided and that Mr. 
Fogarty's place got raided. After that you and he went into busi- 
ness together, or worked out some kind of consolidation 

Mr. Flanagan. Mr. Chairman, may I say something at this time ? 

The Chairman. Let me finish. 

Mr. Flanagan. I wanted to say something with reference to the 
statement you are making. 

The Chairman. That this is an interstate transaction. Also, it has 
been the intention, I take it, of the committee to ask you about con- 
nections with Sam — that is, Anthony^ — Carollo, and other transac- 
tions; also, one including an operation at 1311 Canal Street and 
846 Baronne Street. I think perhaps I had better ask the witness 
if he knows about any operations at 1311 Canal Street. 

Do you have any connection with it ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer the question. 

INIr. Rice. Or 846 Baronne Street, New Orleans? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Or in connection with organized prostitution? 

Mr. PoRETro. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Or with narcotics ? 

Mr. Poretto. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. And do you run a dope lay-off for a fellow named 
Anfaro — A-n-f-a-r-o — who has some connection with the Greyhound 
bus station, or the barber shop there? 



ORGANIZED CRIJME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 107 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer that (luestion. 

Tlie Chaikmax. An^tliino- you want to add, Mr. Rice? 

Mr. Rice. AVe would like to know^ how it was possible to obtain 
certain subscribers which in 11)46 were receivin<>: service from Daily 
Sports News, that appear to be subscribers of Southern News Pub- 
lishing Co. Do you know the answer to that ? 

Mr. PoRETTO. I refuse to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Well, that will be all. I just w^anted to say to you, 
Mr. Poretto, that you appear to be one of the worst characters this 
committee has had before it, and the connnittee doesn't intend to be 
defied by the attitude you have taken here today. 

Mr. Flanagan. Your Honor, as I stated at the beginning, there is 
no intention of the witness to defy the committee but he desires to 
stand upon his constitutional privileges. 

The Chairman. As far as what the witness has said it speaks for 
itself. 

No hard feelings to you, Mr. Flanagan, You seem to be a very 
nice felloW'. 

Mr. Flanagan. Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF EEV. DANA DAWSON, MUNHOLLAND MEMORIAL 
METHODIST CHURCH, METAIRIE, LA. 

The Chairman. Reverend Dawson, you do solemnly swear the tes- 
timony you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Reverend Dawson, I do. 

The Chairman, Reveiend, we appreciate having you before the 
committee, I know something about your work, what you have been 
trying to do and what you stand for, and we are grateful for your 
interest in the effort that we have been trying to make, and for your 
assistance. 

Now. Mr, Rice, wnll you proceed ? 

Mr. Rice. With what church are you connected, Reverend Dawson? 

Reverend Dawson, Munholland Memorial Methodist Church, 
Metairie, 

Mr. Rice, What parish is that ? 

Reverend Dawson, Jefferson Parish, 

The Chairman. I didn't understand the name of the town. 

Reverend Daw^son. Metairie ; it is a subdivision, a section. 

Mr. Rice. What is your home address, Reverend Dawson? 

Reverend Dawson. 232 Elmeer Place. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, tell us about your experiences in connection 
with gambling activities in your parish. 

Reverend Dawson. Well, I moved to Jefferson Parish in November 
1946, and I had been there only a short time until many people began 
calling me objecting to the wide-open gambling that exists there, of 
all forms, and they wanted some organized effort to change that situa- 
tion and bring law enforcement to the parish, and so with some of the 
other ministers of the parish and with the help of many of the local 
citizens we organized a Citizens League of Jefferson Parish with the 
purpose of bringing law enforcement there where all of us live, 

68958— 51— pt. 8 8 



108 •ORGANrZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. KicE. All right, sir. Now, do you know a man by the name 
of Pete Perez ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Hoav long have you known him? 

Reverend Dawson. For about 4 years. 

Mr. Rice. And what business is he in ? 

Reverend Dawson. He is foreman of the dice tables at Club Forest, 
to the best of my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Did he tell you that? 

Reverend Dawson. He told me he worked at Club Forest. I don't 
inow whether he gave the specific job he had or not. 

Mr. Rice. And the Club Forest is a gambling place i 

Reverend Dawson. On Jefferson Highway in Jefferson Parish. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know who the principals in the Club Forest are, 
or are reputed to be ? 

Reverend Daw^son. Yes. I believe that a Mr. Al Shorling and 

Mr. Rice. Al Shorling? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes; and I believe two of the Mills brothers. 

Mr. Rice. Two of the Mills brothers ? 

Reverend Dawson. Henry and Frank, I believe. 

Mr. Rice. Henry and Frank. Yes, sir. How about Arthur? 

Reverend Dawson. There are su])posed to be four, as I understand 
it. I don't know whether he is the fourth or not. 

Mr. Rice. And these Mills brothers are the ones referred to as 
being missing. You have heard the names called and who are not 
present here ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes ; they are the same. 

Mr. Rice. Now, in connection with the Club Forest, did Perez 
transact any business with you at the churcli, or attempt to transact 
any business? 

Reverend Dawson. As the result of the efforts of the Citizens 
Jjeague of Jefferson Parish, suits w^ere brought against Club Forest 
and Beverly Country Club. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. What type of suits ? 

Reverend Dawson. They were the padlock suits. We attempted 
to close them because they were a nuisance under the State law. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Reverend Dawson. When these suits were filed, several people con- 
tacted me, and with the idea of compromising the suits, and Mr. 
Perez was one of this number. 

Mr. Rice. Well now, amplify a little bit on that compromising. 

Reverend Dawson. \Vell, it was suggested that if the suits were not 
pushed in court that we could get a new Sunday school building built 
for our church. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Now, who was going to build the Sunday school? 

Reverend Dawson. The owners of gambling houses of Jefferson 
Parish. 

Mr. Rice. In other w^ords, then, the money from gambling houses 
was offered for the purpose of building Sunday schools. Is that 
-correct ? 

Reverend Dawson. That is correct. 

The Chairman. How much was going to be spent on the Sunday 
school referred to. Reverend? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 109 

Eeverend Dawsox. Well, our particular building, which was built, 
<.-ost $30,000. 

The Chairman. You mean the Sunday school that you did build? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But you built it yourself ? 

Eeverend Dawson, les, sir; and we have a $40,000 mortgage. 

Mr. Rice. Now, who were these people that propositioned you in 
that fashion ? 

Reverend Dawson. Well, the only one I know by name, it would be 
Mr. Perez. 

The Chairman. Is that Pete Perez ? 

Reverend Dawson. Peter A. Perez. And his proposition 

The Chairman. What is he, anyway ? 

Reverend Dawson. He is the gentleman that works at the Club 
Forest. 

The Chairman. Is he the foreman of the dice tables at Club Forest 
or something ? 

Reverend Dawson. That is my understanding ; yes. 

The Chairman. Now then, did he suggest that there would be some 
Avay to shut down vice in the parish ? 

Reverend Dawson. Well, at a later date, after all attempts were 
made and had been refused, to get the suits canceled, it was suggested 
a possibility of a compromise : That if all the gambling should be 
removed from Metairie, which is principally the parish of my church, 
that then we would not push the suits any further. And that propo- 
sition, of course, was turned down. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Did Frank Clancy appear in the picture ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes and no. 

:Mr. Rice. ^\1io is Frank Clancy ? 

Reverend Dawson. He is the sheriff of Jefferson Parish. 

Mr. Rice. ^Miat did he have to do in this situation ? 

Reverend Dawson. In the beginning we appealed to him to enforce 
the law, but we were unable to contact him either by telephone, 
registered letter, or by visits to his office, or to his home; and we 
got no satisfaction from him. 

]Mr. Rice. Did you ever see him in the company of Pete Perez ? 

Reverend Dawson. On one occasion. 

Mr. Rice. What was that? 

Reverend Dawson. They came to my office at the church. 

]Mr. Rice. What transpired then, Reverend ? 

Reverend Dawson. It was suggested that since it seemed that the 
chief interest — that those who were chiefly interested in getting 
gambling closed in Jefferson Parish lived in Metairie, that if that 
could be brought about, that possibly there would be no further 
objections on their part, and again possibly the suits, at least it was 
implied, that the suits would not be pushed further. 

Mr. Rice. Did Clancy tell you anything about getting jobs for his 
friends in the gambling joints ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes. He said that he, personally, would like 
to see the place closed because so many people hounded him to give 
them or their families or friends jobs in the various gambling houses 
in the parish and it was a nuisance and a bother to him. 

Mr. Rice. Did he indicate that any of his deputies were working 
in any of the gambling joints ? 



110 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Reverend Dawsox. No ; he did not. 

Mr. EicE. In connection with Pete Perez, did he ever make any pay- 
ments to you which he said was money from the Chib Forest or other 
places ? 

Reverend Dawson. Not to me, directly. 

Mr. Rice. To the church ? 

Reverend Dawson. He has made contributions of $50 or $75 monthly 
to the church. 

Mr. Rice. Now, what did he tell you in connection with those con- 
tributions ? Where did they come from ? 

Reverend Dawson. He was given a fund of about a thousand dollars 
a month to spend as he sees fit. 

Mr. Rice. Given to him, a thousand dollai*s a month by the club 
to spend as he saw fit ? 

Reverend Dawson. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. This money was pai-t of this fund. Did he have to ac- 
count for that fund '\ Did he have to take a receipt? 

Reverend Dawson. No ; the money was always cash. 

Mr. Rice. The money was always cash. Did he tell you anything 
about how it was entered on the club books ? 

Reverend Dawson. No. It is entered on our books as any other 
contribution. 

Mr. Rice. How about the books of the club ? Did he tell you any- 
thing about that? 

Reverend Dawson. I don't know whether it is entered there or not. 

Mr. Rice. Did he tell you anything about the bookkeeping system 
at the club ? 

Reverend Daw;son. You mean as far as receipts are concerned? 

Mr. Rice. Yes; whether they have double sets of books or single 
sets ? 

Reverend Dawson. I believe that the}' do have a book on which the 
salaries of the employees are recorded. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Reverend Dawson. And, as I understand it, the employees receive 
an additional salary which is not entered in that book. 

INIr. Rice. Now, why is that ? 

Rev. Dawson. I would imagine it would be because of income tax. 

Mr. Rice. Well, now, would it be income tax ? Would it affect social 
security? In other words, the books show they. are paying certain 
figures. As a matter of fact, they are actually paying more. Is that 
a fair statement. 

Reverend Dawson. I understand that is true. 

The Chairman. How did you get that information? Is that what 
he told you ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes. Mr. Perez told me that. 

]\Ir. Rice. Did you ever have any indication that the Beverly Club, 
or Phil Kastel, joined in the contribution to tlie church? 

Reverend Dawson. On one occasion. Sheriff Clancy brought a 
contribution to our church for our new educational building, which 
I understood was to be a personal contribution, but it turned out there 
was a personal check and in addition there were checks from several 
of the gambling houses of the parish; one of them was the Beverly 
Country Clul) whicli was signed by Phil Kastel. 

Mr. Rice. How about O'DAvyer's? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 111 

Reverend Dawson. Yes ; there was one from O'Dwyer. 

Mr. Rice. I take it, then, tliat Sheriff Chmcy was a channel or a 
personally appointed collection agent from, if I might put it that way, 
several gambling joints for the benefit of the chnrcii? 

Reverend Dawson. That is true. 

Mr. Rice. That was not at any suggestion of the church ? It was 
purely his own? 

Reverend Dawson. Voluntarily ; that's all. 

The Chairman. All right. Do you have anything else? 

Mr. Rice. What did Sheriff Clancy tell you about winning a law- 
suit, which returned him some monthly income? 

Reverend Dawson. Well, he stated that some years ago he won 
a lawsuit that paid him a substantial return each month. 

Mr. Rice. Do you remember how much that was ? 

Reverend Dawson. As I recall, it was $750. 

Mr. Rice. He said he was getting $750 a month from where ? 

Reverend Dawson. As a result of a lawsuit that he had won some 
years ago. 

Mr. Rice. Did he say what the lawsuit was about? 

Reverend Dawson. I believe he did, but I don't remember. 

]Mr. Rice. Did it involve some property? 

Reverend Dawson. It was, as I recall it — it was a property settle- 
ment of some sort. It did have something to do with property. 

The Chairman. Anything else ? 

Mr. Rice. Did Sheriff Clancy ever tell you how many men he 
thought he had been instrumental in securing jobs in the gambling 
places 

Reverend Dawson. I believe the figure was 2.000. 

Mr. Rice. That he felt he had put 2,000 people to work in the 
gambling places in his parish ? 

Reverend Dawson. That is correct. 

Mv. Rice. In Jefferson Parish ? 

The Chairman. That doesn't mean they are working at once. That 
is the turn-over. 

Reverend Dawson. As I understand it, most of them are working at 
the present time. 

The Chairman. Well, how many places do you have out there? 

Reverend Dawson. We have five larger houses. I don't know if 
anybody knows exactly how many smaller ones. 

The Chairman. You don't mean that 2,000 people are employed 
in these houses ? 

Reverend Dawson. Directly and indirectly; I imagine it would 
be possible. 

Mr. Rice. About how many employees does the Club Forest have? 

Reverend Dawson. I don't know. 

The Chairman. Well, now, the reverend wouldn't be an expert on 
how many employees the club has. 

Mr. Rice. He would know about it, from Pete Perez. Perez works 
there ? 

Reverend Dawson. I don't believe he ever said. 

Mr. Rice. Did Pete Perez ever tell you who the "satchelman" was, 
or how the ''ice" was paid or who picked it uj) ? Do you know what 
I am referring to when I say ''ice'' ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes. 



112 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. In California they call it ''juice.*' 

Reverend Dawson. Yes. Now, I am not sure whether Mr. Perez, 
told me that or not, but it is more or less common knowledge in th& 
parish that a gentleman named Mr, Paul Cassagne 

Mr. Rice. Yes. What is his function ? 

Reverend Dawson. As I understand it, he is the "satchelman," a& 
they say. 

Mr. Rice. The "ice" man ? Is he the "ice" man ? 

Reverend Dawson. He picks up the money and takes it where- 
ever he takes it. 

The Chairman. All right. Hov>' was this money going to get to- 
the church for the Sunday school addition? 

Reverend Dawson. We never did get that far, Senator. 

The Chairman. You didn't make any proposal about how the 
money would get there ? 

Reverend Dawson. I always said we would push tlie suit as far as 
we could, and that is what was done. 

The Chairman. And that's what you have been doing. 

That is a great temptation : to get a Sunday school built, but it 
wouldn't be much of a Sunday school, would it ? 

Reverend Dawson. That's the Avay we felt about it. 

The Chairman. What happened to the suits? 

Reverend Dawson, They went to the Supreme Court of the State 
of Louisiana four times. The first time one of the justices died the 
day after he heard the suit. It was the last one he heard. So they 
had to be reheard. On two occasions tlie supreme court decided unan- 
imously in our favor, telling the district judge to rehear the suits;; 
that the law was not unconstitutional as the attorney for the club 
said. 

The Chairman. You mean the whole court decided that way,, 
unanimously ? 

Reverend Dawson. Unanimously : yes, sir. Then, on tlie last time 
the court reversed itself, and four of the judges, three of whom had 
voted unanimously in our favor in the past, voted with a new man 
who was the fourth one, and reversed themselves, saying that the- 
law was unconstitutional, and, of course, we have no recourse now- 

The Chairman. Well now, that is very interesting. Under what 
law did you start on ? 

Reverend Dawson. I believe it is called the padlock law. I am. 
not sure, exactly. 

The Chairman, And it was tried before a jury? 

Reverend Dawson. It never readied trial. The attorney for the- 
Beverly Club and the Club Forest objected, saying that the law was 
unconstitutional; his objection was sustained by Judge Leo McCune,. 
the district judge. Then we appealed to the supreme court and the 
supreme court said that it was constitutional. Then the "'merry-go- 
round" started. 

The Chairman. Then the supreme court sent it back. TMiat hap- 
pened to it then ? 

Reverend DAwson. Judge McCune said, in effect, thai the supreme 
court was wrong. 

The Chairman, And decided against you again? 

Reverend Dawson, That is true. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 113' 

The Chairman. And you took another appeal and the supreme 
court unanimously decided that it was constitutional? 

Keverend Dawson. That is rio;ht. 

The Chairman. And it came back to Judoe McC'une ? 

Keverend Dawson. A^ain he said tliey didn't know exactly what 
they were doing, and he threw it out. We went back. 

The Chairman. You went back to the supreme court on the same 
thing and one new man luid gotten on the supreme court? 

Reverend Dawson. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. '\A^iere was he from ? 

Reverend Daw^son. I believe he is Justice LeBlanc, from one of the 
southern parishes; I don't know exactly which one, but near the* 
southern part of the State. 

Mr. Rice. Any of the other justices from Jefferson Parish? 

Reverend Dawson. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. Anyway, let's see. When it got back the third 
time, four of the justices who had decided it twice in your favor re- 
versed themselves? 

Reverend Dawson. Three. With the new man, who made the 
fourth. So there were four to three against us that time. 

The Chairman. Four to three against you. 

Mr. Rice. Saying that the law was unconstitutional. 

Reverend Dawson. That is correct. 

The Chairman. There is nothing, then, you can do, apparently.^ 

Reverend Dawson. Not until the next session of the legislature.- 

The Chairman. What are you going to do then ? 

Reverend Dawson. We propose to get a new law. 

The Chairman. I see. How long has this litigation been going on? 

Reverend Dawson. We started this 4 years ago this month. 

The Chairman. And you got a lot of people interested in it? 

Reverend Dawson. Many people; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Anything else ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. I think it might be well at this point: We have 
some of the sections from the Code of the State of Louisiana, to put 
into the record. Of course, you are not a lawyer, and we are not going 
to ask you about them. I think they would be of interest. 

Thank you very much. Reverend Dawson. Is there anything you 
w^ant to say to us ? 

Reverend Dawson. No, sir; thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. Wliere did you come from, sir ? 

Reverend Dawson. Originally, Oklahoma. 

The Chairman. How long have you been over in Jefferson Parish? 

Reverend Dawson. I have been there — this is my fifth year. Before- 
that I was 4 years in the city of New Orleans. 

The Chairman. Weren't you the president of the Ministerial Asso- 
ciation of Greater New Orleans ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes, sir. 

The Chair3Ian. Also, pastor of the Eighth Street Methodist Church 
in New Orleans ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes, sir ; for 4 years. 

The Chairiman. And of the Munholland Memorial Methodist 
Church? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes, sir. 



114 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. That is where you are now ? 

Reverend Dawson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How old are you ? 

Reverend Dawson. Thirty-three. 

The Chairman. Well, you have had a great record for your age. 

Reverend Dawson. Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

(The document last referred to by the chairman was marked '"Ex- 
hibit No. 14" and is on file with the committee, being in words and 
figures as follows, to wit:) 

Exhibit No. 14 

Louisiana Law on Gambling 

gambling prohibited 

Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, title llf, section 90 

Gambling is the intentional conducting, or directly assisting in the conducting, 
as a business, of any game, contest, lottery, or contrivance whereby a person 
risks the loss of anything of value in order to realize a profit. Whoever commits 
the crime of gambling shall be fined not more than $500, or imprisoned for not 
inore than 1 year, or both. 

EXPLANATION 

The above law is an identical reproduction of article 90 of act 43 of 1942 
(Louisana Criminal Code, now repealed). The jurisprudence thereunder shows 
that the crime of gambling is committed only when the operator charged does 
such as a profit enterprise. Any type of wagering offered on a limited or 
general basis to the public is illegal under this law. It is not nece.ssary that 
the gambling operation be the main business of the offender. It may be a side 
line. Possession of gambling devices is not illegal liereunder. The use thereof 
for a profit is illegal. This statute is comprehensive and has been held, l)y the 
by the Louisiana Supreme Court, to prohibit lotteries, bookmaking, dice tables 
roulette, banking games, slot machines, card games, etc. 

See notes to former Louisiana Criminal Code, section 740-790. Also State 
V. Davis (208 Louisiana 954, 23 So. (2) 801). 

SLOT MACHINES 

Louisiana Revised Statutes of 1950, title 15, section 26.1 

All oflScers of the State of Louisiana are hereby authorized and empowered 
and it is made mandatory and compulsory on their part, to confiscate and im- 
mediately destroy all gaml)ling devices known as slot machines that may come 
to their attention, or that they may find in operation. 

EXPLANATION 

This law is a reenactment of Act 231 of 1928 of Louisiana Legislature. The 
jurisprudence thereunder requires the destruction of the machines, whether iu 
operation or not, even while in storage. Tills law applies to all machines which 
have an automatic payoff or where the owner pays off over the counter on 
symbols indicated on the machine. It applies to pinball machines so used. A 
sheriff who fails to enforce this law is subject to removal from office under the 
constitution of the State. 

See Jennim/s cC Co. v. Maestri (97 F. (2) 679, 22 F. Supp. 980) ; Schimpf v. 
Thomas (204 La. 541, 15 So. (2) 880) ; State v. Ricl^s (41 So. (2) 232, 215 La. 002). 

Constitution, State of Louisiana 
Article 19, section 5 

Gambling is a vice and the legislature shall pass laws to suppress it. 

The Chairman. We will have to have a session tonight, and we will 
stand in recess until 8 o'clock, and we will carry on until about 10 :15. 
The committee stands in recess. 
(Whereupon, at 5 :15 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 8 p. m.) 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 115 

KIGIIT SESSION 

(Pursuant to the recess, the subcommittee reconvened at 8 p. m., 
Tliursday, January 25, 1951.) 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

I should have stated earlier, we are very delighted to have Mr. 
Mitchell, the assistant district attorney, to sit with us during these 
proceedings. 

Who is our first witness, Mr. Rice? 

Mr. EiCE. Phil Kastel. 

The Chairmax. Let's have Mr. Moran first. I told him I would 
23ut him on. 

(Mr. Moran was not present.) 

The Chairman. Then tell Mr. Kastel to come in. 

I am sorry, sir ; we promised Mr, Moran we would put him on first, 
but he does not seem to be here. 

TESTIMONY OF PHILLIP FRANK KASTEL, METAIRIE, NEW ORLEANS, 
LA., ACCOMPANIED BY JAMES O'CONNOR, JR., ATTORNEY, NEW 
ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairmax. Mr. Kastel, will you solemnly swear the testimony 
you give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Kastel. I do. 

The Chairmax^^. What is your name. Counsel? 

Mr. O'Coxx'OR. My name is James O'Connor, Jr. I am counsel for 
Mr. Kastel. 

The Chairmax'. We are glad to have you with us, Mr. O'Connor 

Mr. O'Coxx'OR. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairmax'. Will you sit down ? 

Mr. O'Cox'XOR. I believe I spoke to you. Senator, about the return 
on the subpena before I left today, and I spoke to Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. If anything comes up with respect to those, we will take it. 

The Chairman. Mr. O'Connor, suppose you come around here i""<" 
a second. 

( Short conference at the bench off the record.) 

Mr. O'Cox'X'OR. Senator, may I at this time make a statement? 

The Chairmax'. Yes, indeed, Mr. O'Connor. 

INIr. O'Cox'xoR. I don't desire to delay this hearing, but the other day 
the district attorney for the parish of Orleans requested permission to 
take testimony of the various witnesses that appeared before this com- 
mittee. I understand that he wrote this committee — Mr. Rice, or some 
member of this committee. The papers carried that. 

Mr. Rice. What is this again ? 

Mr. O'Cox'NoR. That the district attorney of the parish of Orleans 
requested of the officers of this committee, Mr. Rice, permission for his 
office to take the testimony of the various witnesses that appeared 
before this committee. 

The Chairman. Are you talking about the State's attorney ? 

Mr. O'Connor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice;. That is the first time I have heard of that. 

Mr. O'Connor. That appeared in the papers. 



^16 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Mr. Rice says he has heard nothing about it. I 
have heard nothing about it. 

Of course, this is an open hearing. As you very well know, our 
purpose is not a grand jury purpose or prosecution, and the Federal 
statute si^ecifically provides that the questions and answers and the 
testimony given here cannot be used against the witness. 

Mr. O'Connor. I am well aware of that. Senator, but if that letter 
was written I w^ould like that letter to be made a part of the testimony 
of Mr. Kastel, and the answer of this committee. I understand this 
committee wrote him a letter, ]Mr. Klein, your publicity man, wrote 
him a letter, stating that they would be ghid to have him have his 
stenographer appear before this committee and take that testimony. 

That appeared in the paper, and I would like the letter written by 
Mr. Darden or the oral request made by Mr. Darden made a part of 
Mr. Kastel's testimony, and the answer thereto, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, the letter and the answer. As far as I 
know, nobody is taking the testimony except the official reporter of 
the committee. 

Mr. O'Connor. One more thing, sir : I want to make the general 
objection that has been made to it throughout the entire day as to the 
lack of a quorum. 

The Chairman. That will be noted. 

Mr. O'CoNNCR. After Mr. Kastel gives his name and address he 
w^ould like to have a short statement made for the record, if you will 
give him that permission. 

The Chairman. Very well. We will let the record show that objec- 
tion lias been made to the proceedings on the ground of lack of quorum. 

At this place in the i-ecord we will again read into the record the 
resolution adopted by the committee authorizing this subcommittee to 
sit and to take testimony. 

(The resolution referred to is as follows:) 

Special Committee To Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce 

Resolved, That the chairman of this committee be and hereby is authorized at 
his discretion to appoint one or more subcommittees of one or more Senators, of 
whom one member sliall be a quorum for tlie purpose of taking testiuiony and 
all other committee acts, to hold hearings at such time and places as the chair- 
man might designate, in furtherance of the committee's investigations of or- 
ganized crime, in the vicinities of the cities of Tampa, Fla., and New Orleans, 
La. 

Estes. Kefauver, Chairman. 

Herbert R. O'Conor. 

Lester C. Hunt. 

The Chairman. Your name is Phillip Frank Kastel? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. 311 North Line, New Orleans. 

Mr. Kastel. Metairie, New Orleans, suburb. --^ 

The Chairman. New Orleans? 
Mr. Kastel. That is a suburb in Jefferson Parish. 
The Chairman. INIr. O'Connor, give us your address first, please. 
Mr. O'Connor. My home? 
The Chairman. No; vour business address. 
Mr. O'Connor. 200 Civil District Court. 

The Chairman. Yes. You read any statement or make anv state- 
ment you wish to make, Mr. Kastel. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 117 

Mr. Kastfx. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman and members of the Special Senate Committee To 
Investigate Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce : 

I am appearing here today in response to a subpena of this lionor- 
able body, served upon me on the 13th day of January 1951, directed 
to me and commanding me to appear and testify upon such matters 
and subjects as set forth in said subpena. 

With due deference to this conmiittee and the honorable gentlemen 
composing it, before answering any questions which may be pro- 
pounded to me herein, I am taking the liberty of making the follow- 
ing statement, to wit 

The Chairman. We will let the subpena be made a part of the rec- 
ord also. We have the original here which has been served. 

Mr. Kastel. All right. Served upon me the 13th day of January 
1961; directed to me and commanding me to appear and testify upon 
such matters and subjects as set forth in said subpena. 

Witli due deference to this committee and the honorable gentlemen 
composing it, before answering any questions which may be pro- 
pounded to me herein, I am taking the liberty of making the follow- 
ing statement, to wit : 

Inasmuch as the conduct and line of questioning, by counsel for the 
committee, in previous hearings of this body, have sought repeatedly 
to connect my name with other witnesses, or future witnesses, and 
partake of the nature of a grand jury investigation, seeking to impli- 
cate appearers in violations of any and all laws of the United States 
and those of the several States of the United States ; 

And inasmuch as the attorneys general of the several States have 
been invited to attend and partake in these hearings ; 

And, furthermore, as testimony and evidence adduced at previous 
hearings of this committee have been used and made the basis for in- 
dictments, bills of information, and prosecutions in various of the 
several States of the United States, I shall reserve all of my rights 
under the Constitution of the United States and under the Constitu- 
tion of the State of Louisiana, and while answering all questions 
Avhich I consider proper and pertinent herein, I shall refuse to answer 
any questions which I believe would tend to incriminate me under any 
law of the United States or of any of the several States. 

I do not make this statement in any spirit of antagonism, nor do I 
desire to hamper or hinder the work of this committee. However, I 
respectfully state that I intend to reserve and preserve every right 
guaranteeci to me under the Constitution of the United States and the 
Constitution of the State of Louisiana. 

Mr. O'Connor. May I offer this and file this in evidence? 

The Chairman. It will be filed as exhibit No. 15 and made a part of 
the record. 

(The paper referred to was identified as exhibit No. 15, and is on file 
with the committee.) 

Mr. O'Connor. Thank you. 

The Chairman. May I ask you who prepared that statement? 

Mr. Kastel. I helped to prepare it. I consulted with Mr. O'Connor 
and we prepared it together. 

The Chairman. All right, as long as you have what we think is a 
legitimate objection to any testimony : We are not here to try to 



118 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

smear you or do you any wrong. We are here to try to get any infor- 
mation we think we need. 

Mr. Kastel. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Will you proceed, Mr, Rice? 

Mr. Rice. What was your name at the time you were born ? 

Mr. Kastel. Phillip Kastel, 

Mr. Rice. How do you spell that? 

Mr. Kastel. K-a-s-t-e-l. 

Mr. Rice. Any other names? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever used any other names ? 

Mr. Kastel. I might have. 

Mr. Rice. What were some of the other names you might have 
used? (Pause.) 

Did he answer ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, I did not answer. I am just trying to think. 

The Chairman. Well, you have used an alias, and you think about 
it. We will ask you about it later on. 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. All right. 

Mr. Rice. You have used other names ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would not say so. 

Mr. Rice. Would you say you have not used other names? 

Mr. O'Connor. He said he would not say so. The Senator said 
suppose you come back to that question later. 

The Chairman. All right, we will come back to that later, 

Mr, Rice. All right, sir. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Kastel, New York, 

Mr, Rice. In what year? 

Mr. Kastel. 1898. 

Mr, Rice, In New York City? 

Mr, Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you live in Connecticut ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice, And what was your business in Connecticut? 

Mr, Kastel, I was in the liquor business, 

Mr, Rice, What year was that, or what years ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would say in 1933, around there. 

Mr. Rice, 1933. 

The Chairman. May I ask counsel, and also Mr. Kastel — excuse 
me, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Kastel, you know generally the matters we want to ask you 
about. Do you want to tell your own story and then we will ask you 
questions about it? 

Mr, Kastel. I just don't know what you want me to say. Senator. 

The Chairman. Well, we want to know about what you did in Con- 
necticut, and whether you were in the coin-machine business there, 
who you were associatecl with. 

Mr. Kastel. I wns not in the coin-machine business. 

The Chairman. Well, whether you were or not. hoAv you got to New 
Orleans, what you have been doing here, and who you do business 
with, and what your business enterprises here are. Do you want to tell 
us narratively the story rather than ask specific questions ? 

Mr, O'Connor. May I answer that as his counsel? 

The Chairman. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 119 

Mr. O'Connor. We would rather you ask the questions. 

The Chairman. Very well. We will proceed as we were. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. During prohibition what were you doing? 

JNlr. Kastel. I respectfully refuse to answer on the ground that the 
question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Were you connected with a man by the name of Rothstein 
during prohibition? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Rothstein? 

]Mr. Kastel. I knew a man. 

Mr. Rice. Were you associated with him in any enterprise? 

]Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

JNIr. Rice. What became of him? What became of Rothstein? 

Mv. Kastel. I think the man is dead. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know how he died ? 

]\lr. Kastel. That is public property. He was shot. 

]\Ir. Rice. Was that not Arnold Rothstein? 

( No response. ) 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you have said, during prohibition you refused 
to answer what you were doing. 

The Chairman. He said he was in the liquor business. 

]\Ir. Rice. Now, then, when j'ou got into the liquor business in 
Connecticut in the 1930's, was that the first time 3'ou were in the liquor 
business? 

Mr. Kastel. I didn't say I was in the liquor business in Connecticut. 
I lived in Connecticut. 

Mr. Rice. What business were you in when you lived in Con- 
necticut ? 

]\Ir. Kastel. I am going to decline to answer that question on the 
ground that it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Were you- 

The Chairman. Just a minute. I will have to direct you to answer 
the question, Mr. Kastel. 

Mr. O'CoxxoR. Well, we would like you to specify in which years 
in Connecticut. 

The Chairmax. Well, I suppose this was prior to 1935. Were you 
in the liquor business when you lived in Connecticut prior to 1935 ? 

]\Ir. Kastel. I was in the liquor business right after repeal. That 
must have been in 1983. I believe. 

Mr. Rice. What was the name of your business? 

Mr. Kastel. The Alliance Distributors. 

Mr. Rice. This was prior to 1935 ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. With whom were you associated in the Alliance Dis- 
tributors ? 

Mr. Kastel. The William Whitely Co., Glasgow. 

Mr. Rice. In Glasgow, Scotland? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. O'CoxxoR. May I suggest. Senator, that that is not pertinent 
to the issues involved in the Senate resolution. 

The Chairmax. Well, it might be. Counsel, by way of background. 

Mr. O'CoxxoR. We would like to know, if it is, and your ruling on 
it ; not if it '"might be." I say that with all due respect to you. Senator. 
We would like to know if it is, your ruling on it ; and if it is then we 



120 ORGANIZED CRIME; IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

are called upon to answer. We don't think that it should ''might be" ; 
we think it should be. When I say these things, Senator. I say it with 
all due respect to the dignity of your office. It is just an attorney 
trying to defend his client's rights. 

The Chairman, Yes, sir ; I clo understand. 

Mr, O'Connor. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Well, then, I will rule that tlie question is in line 
with the investigation we are making. 

Mr. O'Connor. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, who were some of the individuals connected with 
Alliance Distributors in this country with you ? 

Mr. KA.STEL. I %vas not an officer of the Alliance Distributors. 

Mr. Rice. What was your job? 

Mr. Kastel. My job, I was a good-will agent for the distillery in 
Scotland. 

Mr. Rice. I see. In connection with that good will what were your 
particular duties ? 

Mr. Kastel.. Travel throughout the country, and try to popularize 
the brands. 

Mr. Rice. Was Frank Costello also a good-will agent ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Was he connected wdth the comj^any? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you quite certain of that ? 

Mr. Kastel. Positive. 

Mr, Rice. Now, sir, did you have financial interest in that company ? 

Mr. Kastel. In the European company ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. And what was the extent of your financial interest in the 
European company ? 

Mr, Kastel. It was substantial, 

Mr. Rice, To what extent ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not tell you offhand. It is some years ago. 

Mr. O'Connor. I don't like to object every minute. We have 
answered that we have an interest in it. Now how much we had in 
it I don't think has anything to do with it. 

The Chairman. I rather agree with you. A substantial interest 
in the William Whitely Co. of Glasgow, Scotland. A substantial 
interest ; is that correct ? 

Mr. O'Connor. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Did you not endorse a note along with Frank Costello 
in the amount of $325,000 in connection with this company, payable 
to William Helis, New Orleans? 

Mr. Kastel. I endorsed a note ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Along with Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Kastel. I endorsed it myself. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't Frank Costello also endorse the note ? 

Mr. Kastel. At another time, I believe. 

Mr. Rice. The same note ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so, 

Mr. Rice. All riglit, sir. Now, then, what was Costello's interest 
in endorsing that note ? 

Mr. Kasit:l. Just a friendly interest. 

Mr, Rice, Was there an}' security for the note ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes ; there w^as collateral. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 121 

Mr. Rice. What was the collateral ? 

Mr, Kastel. Liquor, whisky. 

Mr. Rice. So that, in effect, 3'ou and Costello shared in the col- 
lateral ^ 

Mr. Kastel. No; Costello had nothino- to do with the collateral. 

Mr. Rice. What collateral did Costello have in connection with his? 

Mr. KAsni:L. You will have to ask Mr. Costello. 

Mr. Rice. Don't you know'^ 

Mv. Kastel. I do not. 

Mr. Rice. What was your collateral ? 

Mr. Kastel. ]My endorsement? 

Mr. Rice. Your collateral; your security in the event the note be- 
came in default ? 

Mr. Kastel. Well, at a later date the president of the company put 
some liquor up, or whisky, for collateral. 

Mr. Rice. As security 'i 

Mr. Kastel. As security. 

Mr. Rice. Who was the president of that company ? 

Mr. Kastel. A man by the name of Irving Haim. 

Mr. Rice. Now, the note was actually executed by Irving Haim, 
was it not, and the company and you and Costello endorsed it ? 

Mr. Kastel. It's so long ago, I would not remember. 

Mr. Rice. How long had you known Costello ? When did you first- 
meet him ? 

Mr. Kastel. Oh, possibly twenty-some-odd years ago- 

Mr. Rice. Twenty-some-odd years ago. Would you say it was in 
thel920's? 

jNIr, Kastel. I would say the latter part of the 1920's ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What were the circumstances of your meeting Costello ?" 

Mr. Kastel. I could not remember. 

Mr. Rice. You don't remember where you met him? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. During the 1920's did you engage in any enterprise with 
Costello? 

Mr. O'Connor. Suppose you specify. Counsel, 

Mr. Rice. Any business enterprise, any legitimate enterprise? 

Mr. Kastel. No. My answer is "No." 

Mr. Rice, Any illegitimate enterprises? [Pause,] 

The Chairman, What is your answer, Mr, Kastel? 

Mr. Kastel. It is so long ago I don't remember, Mr. Senator, T 
don't believe I engaged in any enterprises in the 1920's with Mr.. 
Costello, 

Mr. Rice. Were you in the bootleg business with him ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer on the ground that it may tend to- 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, are you under an indictment? 

Mr. Kastel. I am not, 

]SIr. Rice. The offense that you have in mind 

The Chairman, Well, the bootleg business back in the 1920's cer- 
tainly would not — I guess the statute of limitations would have to run 
on that. 

Mr. O'Connor, Well, as a matter of fact 

Mr. Rice. Did you engage in the bootlegging business with Frank 
Costello durino- tlie 1920's? 



122 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COIXCVIERCE 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. You will be ordered to answ^er that question. 

Mr. O'Connor. Respectfully decline. 

The Chairman. Just say you refuse or 

Mr. Kastel. I respectfully decline. 

The Chairman. Okay. 

Mr. Rice. Do you refuse on the ground that the offense is a State 
or Federal offense ? 

Mr. O'Connor. I don't think we have to answer that statement, in- 
asmuch as you have ordered us to answer the question. We decline 
to answer on the grounds we don't have to elucidate that point and 
continue on after that point. You ordered us and we refuse. That 
ends it. 

The Chairman. I think we understand. If it is a State offense he 
has no right to refuse to answer. If it is a Federal offense, under 
proper conditions he may refuse to answer it. 

Mr. Rice. Did you own the property in High Ridge, Conn. ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Was that a residence ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And wdiat was that valued at? At what value would 
you place that? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. Would you say it was $150,000? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not put the value on it at this time. 

Mr. Rice. Could it have been over $100,000? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. What is the closest you could come ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would not want to guess. 

Mr. Rice. Could you come within $100,000? 

The Chairman. Let's just say it was a veiy valuable piece of 
property. 

Mr. O'Connor. May we also ask the purpose of that question ? 

The Chairman. Well, it is to show, I think — it has a good pur- 
pose, to show what capital he had to start with. 

Mr. O'Connor. That is why we declined to answer the question 
relating to the earlier days. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. When did you first come to Louisiana? 

Mr. Kastel. About 1935. 

Mr. Rice. About 1935? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Have you been here ever since? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, when you came to Louisiana did you go into 
business in the Bayou Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. You will be directed to answer that question, Mr. 
Kastel. 

Mr. Kastel. I respectfully decline to answer it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 123 

Tlie Chairman. Then tell us wliat you came to Louisiana for, 
what business you went into, and who got you to come. 

Mr. O'Connor. We would rather that the counsel for the com- 
mittee propound that question to us, Senator. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. EiCE. Were you connected with the Bayou Novelty Co. at any 
time ? 

Mr. Kastel. What is the question ? 

Mr. O'Connor. He says. Were you connected with the Bayou Nov- 
elty Co. ? 

The Chairman. All right ; what is the answer ? 

(No response heard.) 

The Chairman. We have got to get along, gentlemen. Let's either 
get the questions and get the answers or your refusal to answer. The 
question is. Were you connected with the Bayou Novelty Co. in 
Louisiana ? 

Mr. Kastel. My answer is "Yes." 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. KiCE. All right, sir. What was your connection? 

Mr. Kastel. I just don't quite understand the question. What do 
you mean about my connection ? 

Mr. KiCE. Did you have an interest in the Bayou Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. O'Connor.' You asked him that and we said "Yes"; we were 
connected with it. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have an interest in it, a financial interest? 

Mr. Kastel. I did. 

Mr. Rice. Did you own stock? 

Mr. Kastel. It was not a stock company. 

Mr. Rice. What type of company was it ? 

Mr. Kastel. It was a partnership. 

Mr. Rice. Who were the other partners ? Were you a partner ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes ; I was a partner. 

Mr. Rice. Wlio were the other partners? [Pause.] Were they not 
G. R. Brainard, Dudley Geigerman, and Harold Geigerman ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. What has become of Brainard? 

Mr. Kastel. He is dead. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, did anyone share Brainard's interest? Did 
Jimmy Moran, alias Brocato, share Brainard's interest ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not say offhand. I would have to see' the 
records. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible that Moran had a half -interest in Brainard's 
interest ? 

Mr. Kastel. Mr. Moran is here. I'd rather you ask him the ques- 
tion. 

Mr. Rice. You say that you were a partner, sir. 

Mr. Kastel. Right. 

Mr. Rice. The question is directed to you : Did Moran have an in- 
terest in Brainard's interest? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what was the distribution of the partnership ? 
What percentage did each partner have ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would not answer that question offhand without the 
records. 

68958 — 51— pt. 8 9 



124 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COIMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Do you have access to the records ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe I have. 

Mr. EiCE. Wliere are the records ? 

Mr. Kastel. We have them stored away, sir, somewhere. 

Mr. Eice. And they can be located ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, who are the Geigermans? Are they related 
to Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. In what way? 

Mr. Kastel. By marriage. 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true that Loretta Costello is a Geigerman, her 
maiden name was Geigerman ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. Costello's wife? 

Mr. Kastel. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Did Costello have any interest in the Bayou Novelty 
Co.? ^ 

Mr. Kastel. I could not answer that question, 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true that Costello had a 50 percent interest 
in your interest ? He had half of your interest ? 

Mr. Kastel, I believe it was a joint venture, 

Mr. Rice. Between yourself and Costello ? 

Mr, Kastel, I believe so ; yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. So that you and Costello .were 50-50 in your share ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 'VMiat was the business of the Bayou 
Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Was it not a slot machine distributing company? 

Mr. Kastel, I refuse to answer that question on the ground that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman, Operating slot machines in 1940, or now, is not 
a violation of the Federal law. 

Mr. O'Connor. Perhaps not. 

The Chairman. So I will have to direct that you answer the ques- 
tion. 

Mr. O'Connor. No. It is a law in the parish of Orleans, may it 
please Your Honor, and it is not only that, it is part of the income- 
tax scheme that the defendants in this proceeding were brought be- 
fore hearing in an income-tax case and there are other things that 
may grow out of them. 

Now we have answered you honestly and sincerely to the extent 
that we may be- 



The Chairman. Well, we are 

Mr. O'Connor, Please let me finish. Senator, if you don't mind. 
I know that you have a lot of business to attend to on your hands, 
but after all, I am here in the position of attorney, and I am going to 
try to defend my client. Thank you, sir. 

Now you have asked us certain questions. We have answered that 
we belonged in there, that we were partners, other people are part- 
ners, and I think we have given you the information, and you have 
the books, and we are willing to give you the books, but when you ask 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 125 

US up to a question where we think that it may tend to incriminate, I 
say to you, sir, in all fairness, that we should not be forced to answer 
that question. 

The Chairman. Well, the only thing is, I was trying to see how 

Mr. O'Connor. Because even in the Halls of Congress 

The Chairman. Of course, Mr. Counsel, the law is, I think that you 
will agree with me, that whatever privilege the witness has, and we 
want him to have all the privileges that the law entitles him to — =— 

Mr. O'Connor. Under your law, sir, you only can give him partial 
immunity. 

The Chairman. Well, it is not for He has no privilege to re- 
fuse to answer something that might incriminate him under the State 
law. 

Mr. O'Connor. We claim under that 

The Chairman. That has been definitely held by several 

Mr. O'Connor. We claim, sir, under the Federal laws and State 
laws. Under what immunity we claim it is, we don't have to elucidate 
that. 

The Chairman. That is all right. We don't ask you to elucidate 
that 

Mr. O'Connor. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman (continuing). Except this has befen a considerably 
long time ago. I don't know under what Federal laws it might tend 
to incriminate your client. Anyway, shall we have an agreement 
that if your client refuses to answer it, it is on the ground that it might 
tend to incriminate him, without stating that, and unless I otherwise 
direct, Counsel, it will be considered that I directed your client to 
answer in case he refused to answer ? 

Mr. O'Connor. That is correct, sir. 

The Chairman. Is that all right with you, Mr. Kastel ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. O'Connor. Except in points that might be going a little far 
afield, and I also reserve the right, may it please Your Honor, to 
object 

The Chairman. Yes ; that is agi'eeable. 

Mr. O'Connor. Is that understood ? 

The Chairman. That is understood. 

Mr. O'Connor. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. All right; let's get on as quickly as we can, now. 

Mr. KiCE. Did not the Bayou Novelty Co. purchase some 1,200 slot 
machines from the Mills or Jennings Co. in Chicago ? 

Mr. IvASTEL. Would you mind repeating the question ? 

Mr. KiCE'. Did not the Bayou Novelty Co. buy some 1,200 slot ma- 
chines from either the Mills or Jennings Co. in Chicago for shipment 
to Louisiana ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, did it buy slot machines and what did it do? 
That is what we want to know. I don't care about how many. Did it 
buy any slot machines ? 

Mr. O'Connor. He wants to know whether the Bayou Novelty Co. 
bought any slot machines. 

Mr. Kastel. I believe they did. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir.. How many machines did they buy ? 



126 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Kastel. I could not say. 

Mr. O'Connor. I think that the Senator, just before that 

Tlie Chairman. All right, we won't ask that. 

Mr. O'Connor. Said he was only interested in whether or not they 
bought them ; not how many. 

The Chairman. I will keep faith with you. 

Mr. O'Connor. I am trying to cooperate with you. 

The Chairman. I will keep faith with you. I said I w^as not inter- 
ested in how many. Mr. Kastel said they bought some machines. We 
won't ask you how many. From that point, go ahead. 

Mr. Rice. Did you or do you have any interest, either directly or 
indirectly, in the Mills Co., manufacturers of slot machines, in 
Chicago ? 

]\Ir. Kastel. My answer is "No." 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest either directly or indirectly in 
the Jennings Co., manufacturers of slot machines? 

Mr. Kastel. The same answer. 

Mr. O'Connor. "Same answer." By that you mean "No"? 

Mr. Kastel. I mean "No." 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, when these machines were delivered to New 
Orleans what was done with them ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't answer that. 

Mr. O'Connor. You have a right to decline. 

Mr. Kastel. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the same 
grounds ; on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, is it not true that on January 8, 1934, the Na- 
tional City Bank of New York received authorization from the Mills 
Novelty Co. to transfer $75,000 from their account to the account of 
Phil Kastel in the Sterling Bank in connection with a slot machine 
deal ? 

Mr. O'Connor. Have you got a copy — may I see that, if you have 
that there, sir ? Have you anything there that supports that ? May 
I see that if you have it to show my client to see if he can answer that ? 

Mr. Rice. Let's see if he can answer it without seeing it. 

Mr. O'Connor. No, sir. We decline to answer that unless this com- 
mittee shows us that. I think we are entitled to that. Senator. 

The Chairman. Well, I may tell you, Mr. O'Connor, that what 
counsel is reading from is a memorandum of this committee and it 
seems to be no official document. 

Mr. O'Connor. You mean it is a memorandum, with no official doc- 
ument from the Mills Co. ? 

The Chairman. It is a memorandum, apparently taken from the 
books of the Mills Co. and the National City Bank, giving the date of 
it, and what-not, of the loan and the transfer. 

Mr. O'Connor. Has he a photostat of it, sir? I think we are en- 
titled to see that, sir, for the purpose of looking it over and refresh- 
ing our memory. He is asking a question here about 1934. 

The Chairman. Mr. O'Connor, after all, counsel is asking the wit- 
ness a question. The witness either knows whether this is true or he 
doesn't know, or if he does not know, why, let him make any explana- 
tion he wants to about it. 

Mr. O'Connor. That is correct. Senator. 

Mr. Chairman. But I have never heard where it is necessary to 
^et a certified copy of something before you could ask a question. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 127 

Mr. O'Connor. All right, sir. Go ahead and proceed but I object 
to the question. I would like the objection to be registered, 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. In 1934, did you, Philip Kastel, draw a 
check to the Mills Novelty Co. in the amount of $50,000 on the Na- 
tional City Bank? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. A certified check. 

Mr. Kastel. It is so long ago I cannot remember what happened 
in 1934. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible? 

Mr. Ivastel. It is possible if you have a copy of the check. 

The Chairman. Read the first part of the question to which he said 
he did not know. * 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible if we have a check, then, that on January 
24, 1934 

Mr. Kastel. If you have a photostatic copy of a check. How can 
I remember 15 years ago? I can't remember what I did 2 weeks ago. 

Mr. Rice. Well, it is possible, then. 

The Chairman. Mr, Kastel, after all, $50,000 even 15 years ago 
was a lot of money, you know. 

But now, what was the first part, about 1934? Let's ask about 
that. 

Mr. Rice. In 1934, on January 8, were you connected in a negotia- 
tion whereby the National City Bunk received authorization from 
the Mills Novelty Co, to transfer $75,000 from their account to the 
account of Philip Kastel in the Sterling Bank ? 

Mr, O'Connor, For what purpose ? 

The Chairman, Well, I believe that is the question : The question 
has been asked, 

Mr, Rice, That is what we would like to know: the purpose. 

The Chairman. Is that true or not, or do you know ? 

Mr. O'Connor. We would like to know, Your Honor, what you 
are trying to 

The Chairman. Mr. O'Connor, the question is very clear. He 
knows whether there was a transaction of that sort or not. If he wants 
to tell about it let him tell about it, 

Mr, Kastel. I would have to consult with the Mills people to find 
out and refresh my memoiy. I can't tell you otfhand. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you did have some transactions with the Mills 
Co., didn't you ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not with the Mills Co. ; no. I have had some trans- 
actions with the Mills Co. This particular transaction you are 
referring to I can't say. I would have to refresh my memory. 

Mr. Rice. How will you refresh your memory, sir? 

Mr. Kastel. 1 would have to call one of the Mills and ask them 
about it, 

Mr, Rice, I see, whatever they say. 

Mr. Kastel. We will talk about it and see if they can refresh my 
memory. I am not trying to parry. I am serious about it, if I can 
answer the question truthfully, I will answer it. You don't want me 
to guess at it ? 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, were the slot machines obtained from the 
Mills Co. distributed in New Orleans ? 

Mr. Kastel. Wliat was the question again, please ? 



128 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTEKSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. The slot machines that were received from the Mills 
Co. : did you put them in locations in the city of New Orleans ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. In 1935, did you place machines in the city of New 
Orleans ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
that question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Do you recall the Pelican Novelty Co.? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes; I do. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have an interest in the Pelican Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Ivastel. I did. 

Mr. Rice. WhIW: was that interiest ? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't tell you offhand without looking at the record. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Was that a company or partnership? 

Mr. KASTEL. I believe that was a partnership. 

Mr. Rice. And who were the partners? 

Mr. Kastel. I will have to look at the records. 

Mr. Rice. Were you a partner? 

Mr. I^STEL. I believe I was. 

Mr. Rice. Was Jimmy Moran a partner? 

Mr. Kastel. You would have to ask Moran. 

Mr. Rice. I am asking you. 

Mr. Kastel. I can't say. 

Mr. Rice. Wlio were the other partners? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't say. 

Mr. Rice. Was one of them Dudley Geigerman ? 

Mr. Kj^stel. I can't say. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't Dudley Geigerman manage the Pelican Novelty 
Co.? 

Mr. Kastel. He might have managed it ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. He is the man you referred to as the brother-in-law of 
Frank Costello? 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. What functions did you have with the Pelican Novelty 
Co. ? What were your duties ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Weren't you the manager before Dudley Geigerman ? 

Mr. Ivastel. I refuse to answer that questioning on the grounds 
that it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did the Pelican Novelty Co. handle slot machines ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't the Pelican Novelty Co. also handle pinball ma- 
chines ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. During what years was the Pelican Novelty Co. in opera- 
tion, approximately ? 

Mr. Kastel, I couldn't say without the record. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir ; was it in the thirties ? 

Mr. O'Connor. I'm trying to find out. Not exactly, approximately. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 129 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know wliich company was first, whether it was 
the Pelican or the Bayou. 

The Chairman. If I may interpose, the Bayou Novelty Co. was a 
corporation, and you had that in 

Mr, Kastel. Bayou Novelty Co. was a corporation ? 

The Chairman. I think it was, or a partnership : One or the other. 

Mr. Rice, A partnership. 

The Chairman. A partnership. Then the Pelican Novelty Co. fol- 
lowed the Bayou. 

Mr. IvASTEL. The Pelican followed. 

The Chairman. With substantially the same business and the same 
partners. Isn't that true ? 

Mr. O'Connor. The Pelican was after the Bayou. 

The Chairman. The Pelican was after the Bayou. 

Mr. Rice. What w\as the reason for the change? 

The Chairman. Did Frank Costello also have half of your interest 
in the Pelican just like he did in the Bayou? 

Mr. Kastel, No, sir ; I believe Mr. Costello had a direct interest in 
the Pelican, if my memory serves me right. 

The Chairman. So you had your full interest and he had his. 

Mr. Kastel. By himself. 

The Chairman. Directly by himself? Excuse me, I'm sorry. 

Mr. Rice. Go ahead. 

The Chairman. Mr. Rice was just asking what was the reason for 
the change of the name of the companies, if you know ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe one of the companies went out of business, 
and there was a time elapsed, and then the other company was a fresh, 
brand new company. 

Mr. Rice. Now,' when the Pelican Novelty Co. appeared, did they 
take over the same assets and equipment that the Bayou Novelty 
Co. had? 

]Mr. Kastel. I couldn't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Were they in the same tj^pe of business? 

]\Ir. Kastel. I refuse to answer on the ground the question may tend 
to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. What was the business ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question. The question may tend 
to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Was it an illegal business? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Was it an illegal 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question on the same grounds — 
on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did it do any business ? 

]\Ir. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. O'Connor. I tliink that last question was irrelevant and imma- 
terial whether it had done any business. 

The Chairman. It w^as an awfully easy question to answer. 

Mr. O'Connor. No, but I think, even though it is easy. Senator, it 
is irrelevant and immaterial and just one of those injections in 
there 

The Chairman. All right. 



130 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, we have in the Pelican Novelty Co., Kastel, 
Costello, Geigerman. Who else? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say without the records. 

Mr. Rice. Was Moran in there? 

Mr. Kastel, I couldn't say without the records. 

Mr. Rice. How many men were there ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not answer without the records. 

Mr, Rice, What is your best recollection ? 

Mr. Kastel. I wouldn't want to take a guess. 

Mr. Rice. I might refresh your recollection : Didn't Jimmy Moran 
have an interest? 

Mr. Kastel. If it's on the record, he has it. 

The Chaikman. Well, do you remember whether he had an in- 
terest or not ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't remember oflPliand, Senator. This is a 
technical investigation and I am not going to lay myself open for 
perjury with Mr. Rice or anybody else here. 

The Chairman, All right. 

Mr, Rice, All right, sir- Tell us about the Louisiana Mint Co,, 
when did that start ? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't remember, 

Mr, O'Connor, Have you got the record when it started there? 
You might ask us that question, and if we know about the dates, we 
might know. 

Mr. Rice. Mr, Counsel, please, 

Mr, O'Connor, I know, sir, but you asked if 

Mr, Rice, He is the witness, 

Mr, O'Connor. He is the witness, but he has told you he can't 
remember but he'd try to cooperate with you. If you will ask him ■ 

The Chairman, All right, 

Mr, O'Connor. Senator, may I finish? 

The Chairman, No, that's all right. Suppose you 

Mr. O'Connor. You asked him if it was 1918 or 1920, and if he 
can answer you he will answer you. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. Now, maybe I can be the peace- 
maker here. 

Mr. O'Connor. No, sir, it is not a peacemaker; it's a question of 
standing on your rights. 

The Chairman, All right. Of course, the witness knows, and he's 
been asked about the Louisiana Mint Co., but in case his memory 
is vague, apparently the Louisiana Mint Co, followed the Pelican 
Novelty Co., operated from December 1942 to up in 1948, and each 
of them seem to be at 2601 Chartres Street in New Orleans, La, 

Now, Mr, Rice, go ahead. 

Mr. O'Connor. Thank you, sir. That, Senator, is just what we 
wanted. 

Mr. Rice. Was the Louisiana Mint Co. a partnership ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe it was. 

Mr. Rice. Were you a partner ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Rice. Who were the other partners ? 

Mr, Kastel, I couldn't say offhand without the records, 

Mr, Rice. Was Frank Costello a partner ? 



ORGANIZED CRIiME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 131 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he was. 
Mr. Rice. What interest did you have? 

Mr. Kastel. I cannot answer that question without the records. 
Mr. Rice. Did you have 221^ percent? 

Mr. Kastel. I cannot answer that question without the record. 
Mr. Rice. What interest did Costello have ? 
Mr. Kastel. You will have to ask Mr. Costello. 
Mr. Rice. W^as Jack Lansky a partner ? 
Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

The Chairman. Jack Lansky, let us identify liim. Is that the one 
in New York or Florida ? 

Mr. Kastel. The one in Florida. 
Mr. Rice. Is he a brother of Meyer Lansky ? 
Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Rice. Did Jack Lansky have an interest ? 
Mr. Kastel. I believe he did. Yes, sir. 
]Mr. Rice. Did Dudley Geigerman have an interest? 
Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say without the records. 
Mr. Rice. Did Freddie Rickerfor have an interest — A. G. Ricker- 
f or of New" Orleans ? 
Mr. Kastel. I believe he did have. 
Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did Thomas Hill have an interest? 
Mr. Kastel. Mr. Hill ? 
Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir ; Mr. Hill had an interest. 
Mr. Rice. And Peter Hand? Did Peter Hand have an interest? 
Mr. Kastel. I don't believe Mr. Hand had an interest wdth me — 
with the company, I believe he had a part of an interest yviih Mr. 
Hill. 

Mr, Rice. I believe you are correct. 

Mr. Kastel. Sir? 

Mr. Rice. I believe you are right. 

Mr. O'Connor. Good; for once 

Mr. Kastel. For once 

The Chairman. We are making headway. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what was the business of the Louisiana Mint 
Co.? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the ground 
that the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Let us see if I am correct on that. Was that not alao slot 
machines ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds 
that the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Why did they use the word "Mint" in the name ? 
Mr. O'Connor. Is that material and relevant? 

Mr. Rice. I ask you that in all fairness. I mean why was the name 
"Mint" used in the company ? 

The Chairman. I think it may have some important answer, Mr. 
O'Connor. 

Mr, O'Connor. I bow to your judgment, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know" why they used the name "Mint"? 
In other words, did the machines they have also when you put some- 
thing in bring out a package of mints? 

Mr. Kasit:l, They would bring out a package of mints; yes, sir. 



132 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. All right ; that's a good answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did anything else come out besides mints, if you were 
lucky ? 

The Chairman. Well, let's get it this way. This was substantially 
the same business that you started out back with the Bayou Novelty 
Co. and it came through these various companies or partnerships. Is 
that correct, Mr. Kastel ? 

Mr. Kastel. Pretty much so. Senator. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did there come a time when the Louisiana Mint 
Co. filed a lawsuit against some people in New Orleans, some city 
officials, for $117,000? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds 

Mr. O'Connor, I submit the record speaks for itself, and the records 
in the matter of the public record of the court of jurisdiction of this 
city have records and 

Mr. Rice. If he brought the suit we would be entitled to know 

Mr. O'Connor. It speaks for itself, I suggest 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. O'Connor, we don't go on the technical 
rules of evidence in an investigative committee. The record speaks 
for itself. We can get the record and put it in our record, which we 
will do. The witness is being asked whether the Louisiana Mint Co. 
filed a suit against certain city officials in the city of New Orleans. I 
believe the mayor was one of them, and some others. If he will answer 
the question, we will get along. 

Mr. O'Connor. Yes, you filed the suit. They want to know if you 
filed the suit, for damages. Would you mind phrasing that question 
again, Mr. Rice, I am trying to 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Did the Louisiana Mint Co. file a suit for $117,000 
against certain officials in the city of New Orleans in 1946 ? 

Mr. O'Connor. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. The answer is "Yes." 

Mr. Rice. What was the reason for that suit? 

Mr. O'Connor. For damages. 

Mr. Kastel. For damages. 

Mr. Rice. For what ? 

Mr. Ivastel. For seizing equipment. 

Mr. Rice. What type of equipment? 

Mr. Kastel. Vending machines. 

Mr. Rice. What type of vending machines ? 

Mr. Kastel. Five-cent vending machines. 

Mr. Rice. Five-cent vending machines. 

Mr. Kastei.. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What did they vend ? 

Mr. Kastel. Mints. 

Mr. Rice. Anything else? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. I guess they'd pay you off if you were lucky, so 
let's 

Mr. Rice. Did not the city police seize some 650 of these slot ma- 
chines ? 

Mr. O'Connor. Wait a minute. We object to your calling them 
that, now. I mean, if our answer is going to be it. We are going to 
answer the way we answered the machines that were seized. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 133 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. O'Connor, you don't determine the way 
the witness answers. He answers on his own. 

Mr. O'Connor. No, but I am his attorney, Senator — I hate — it is 
not my disposition or method to argue with people. I am very jovial 
as a rule and get along very rapid and easily with people but I must 
say that if he asks him — he said machines ; vending machines. Now 
counsel puts it as slot machines. 

The Chairman. Well, let's say vending and/or slot machines. 

Mr. O'Connor. That's all right with me, then, Senator.- 

The Chairman. All right, go ahead, Mr. Eice. 

Mr. KiCE. Did not the city police seize some 650 of the company's 
machines and break up 390 of them ? 

INIr. Kastel. I don't know how many they seized or how many they 
broke up. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't you file suit? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't tell you without the record as to the exact 
amount. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, at that time you had a substantial number of 
other machines in the company. What became of the other machines — 
vending machines ? 

Mr. Kastel. There were no other machines to my knowledge out- 
side of what thej seized. 

Mr. Rice. If I might refresh your recollection, your record indi- 
cates there was a substantial number of other machines at that 
time. 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, is your answer, at the time that those ma- 
chines were seized those were the only machines that the Louisiana 
Mint Co. had? 

Mr. Kastel. As far as I know they were the only machines the 
Louisiana Mint Co. had ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, weren't you the manager of the company? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 
' Mr. Rice. Who was the manager ? 

Mr. Kastel. Mr. Geigerman. 

Mr. Rice. What was your job ? 

Mr. Kastel. I had a financial interest. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now, what was the extent of your financial 
interest ? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't tell you without the record. 

Mr. Rice. All right, approximately ? 

Mr. Kastel. I cannot answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. As a matter of fact, you were receiving 
upwards of $50,000 a year from your investment, were you not? 

Mr. Kastel. You have the records there. 

Mr. Rice. I am asking you. 

Mr. Kastel. I can't answer that question without the record. 

Mr. O'Connor. He admitted he owned the machines; he admitted 
he had an interest in the business. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. O'Connor, that's a fair question 
whether he was receiving 

Mr. O'Connor. Well, Senator, will you let me illustrate why I 
asked that point, or am I going to be stopped before I finish? He 
admits he had an interest in the business ; he admits he owns the ma- 



134 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

chines. That is the purpose of your inquiry. Does he have to be 
called upon to testify how much money he made out of it ? 

The Chairman. We want to know approximately how much. 
Mr. O'Connor. I object to it. Just let it be noted in the record 
then. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Rice. Did Carlos Marcello have any interest in that company ? 
Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 
Mr. Rice. Was he not a salesman ? 
Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, let's go back to those machines that were 
seized. I want to make real sure now that those were the only ma- 
chines owned by the company at that time. 

Mr. Kastel. I can't answer that question without the record. You 
are trying to trap me into things and I am trying to help this 
committee. 

Mr. Rice. No; we want to know what became of the other ma- 
chines. 

Mr. Kastel. Well, your attitude is not right at all. 

Mr. Rice. We are not bothered about the attitude 

Mr. O'Connor. He wants to know 

Mr. Kastel. I don't care what lie wants to know, I am not going 
to be harassed. I am trying to help the comittee. Counsel. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Let's try to find out what happened to 
those other machines. There were 600 there stored. Is that correct? 
Mr. Kastel. How is this going to help the committee ? 
The Chairman. That's all right, Mr. Kastel ; you answer the ques- 
tions, and I will judge that. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that just prior to the time those machines 
were seized that you removed other machines ? 
Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge, no. 
Mr. Rice. Were there other machines ? 
Mr. Kastel. I won't say ; I would say "No." 
Mr. Rice. Why were those machines stored ? 
Mr. Kastel. I couldn't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. You are in business now to make money. 
Is that correct ? Isn't that right ? 
Mr. Kastel. Not right, not always. 

Mr. Rice. You are in an enterprise for profit, and you have 600 
machines. Now, sir, can you tell me how those machines are making 
money in storage ? 

Mr. Kastel. No; they couldn't make any money in storage. 
Mr. Rice. What were they doing in storage ? 
Mr. Kastel. Being repaired. 

Mr. Rice. These 600 machines were being repaired ? 
Mr. Kastel. They were doing nothing, just being repaired and 
repainted. 

Mr. Rice. Now, who was repairing and repainting them? 
Mr. Kastel. The repair people. 
Mr. Rice. Where were they stored ? 

Mr. Kastel. In the building at 26 — whatever the number is, 2601 
Chartres, I believe. 

Mr. Rice. Who were they stored with ? 
Mr. Kastel. In the company. 



ORGANIZED CRIMEi IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 135 

Mr. Rice. What company ? 
Mr. Kastel. In the Louisiana Mint Co. 

Mr. Rice. That was the company that yon participated in? 
Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who were the people that were repairing them? 
Mr. Kastel. I couldn't tell you the names. 

Mr. Rice, Did you have any machines out on the street at that 
time ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All of them were off location and back in the company ? 
Mr. Kastel. Off location and back inside. 

Mr. Rice. So that you had all the machines available to you stored 
for repair at that time ? 
Mr. Kastel. Far as I know. 

Mr. Rice. Do you contend that that is good business? 
Mr. O'Connor. I object to that; that is irrelevant and immaterial 
wdiether that is good business or not when the machines are in the 
warehouse. 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. Now, as a matter of fact, wasn't the heat on in town and 
you had directed that those machines be removed out of sight and 
stored ? 
Mr. Kastel. I don't know what you mean by the "heat." 
Mr. Rice. You don't know what the "heat" is? 
Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, wasn't it true that at that time some of those 
machines which were out on location and couldn't be placed in that 
building were sent to Carlos Marcello? 
Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 
Mr. Rice. Is it possible ? 
Mr. Kastel. It is not possible. 
Mr. Rice. Where did the other machines go ? 
Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Well, now, you had a substantial number, more than 
600, where did they go ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. Whatever was there shows 
in the record. 
Mr. Rice. "Wliat became of them ? 
Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you indicated you were a party in interest; you 
have a substantial investment there. Wliat has become of the ad- 
ditional machines which were not seized ? 
Mr. Kastel. I do not know. 
Mr. Rice. To this day you do not know ? 
Mr. Kastel. To this day I do not know. 
Mr. Rice. Do you want to stand by that answer? 
Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir ; 1 do. 

Mr. Rice. Are they still owned by the company ? 
Mr. Kastel. Sir? 

Mr. Rice. Are they still owned by the company ? 
Mr. Kastel. I don't know where they are. 
Mr. Rice;. They just disappeared? 
Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 
Mr. Rice. Didn't you make it your business to find out? 



136 ORGANIZED CRIME: EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Klf^sTEL. I wasn't there to watch tliem. 

Mr. Rice. You weren't there to watch them. Were they stolen ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. EicE. Is it possible they were stolen ? 

Mr. Kastel. It's possible. 

Mr. Rice. Did you make a complaint they were stolen ? 

Mr. Kastel, No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What became of the machines, Mr. Kastel ? 

Mr. Kastel. I do not know. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir. have you heard of the Crescent Music Co. ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Rice. What is that? 

Mr. Kastel. It is a company that would supply music boxes to 
locations. 

Mr. Rice. Is that a corporation ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know what it is. 

Mr. Rice. Is it a partnership ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe it is a partnership, I am not sure. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an interest in it ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not today ; no. 

Mr. Rice. Is it defunct now ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

JMr. Rice. Was succeeded by what ? The F. A. B. Distributing? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What happened to it ? 

Mr. Kastel. The company was liquidated and sold out. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, that company started on July 23, 1943; did 
it not ? 

Mr. Kastel. If you have the record, that must be correct. 

Mr. Rice. I am asking you. 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know without any records. 

Mr. Rice. Is that approximately right? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. When did it start in your estimation ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would have to see the record. 

Mr. Rice. When do you think it started ? 

Mr. Kastel. I wouldn't want to think. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't you have — oh, you wouldn't want to think. 

Mr. Kastel. No, not about that ; not to give you exact dates ; no. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. You clon't want to think, the record says 
it started on July 23, 1943, and continued until 1948. The company 
was first owned by Jack Jaffe. Who is he ? 

Mr. Kastel. He is the man that owned the company. 

Mr. Rice. Where does he live ? 

Mr. Kastel. He is deceased. He's passed out. 

Mr. Rice. Now, was he related to Jacob Jaffe of the Mills Novelty 

Co.? 

Mr. Kastel. I never knew a Jacob Jaffe of the Mills Novelty Co. 

Mr. Rice. Where did Jack Jaffe come from? 

Mr. Kastel. New York. 

Mr. Rice. Was Jaffe formerly with you and Costello and Kastel 
in the Midtown Novelty Co. of New York ? 

Mr. Kasi'el. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 137 

Mr. Rice. I see. Now, did you ever have an office at room 1108, 1860 
Broad%yay, New York City? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question. The question may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not have an office in that room with Frank Cos- 
tello? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question. The question may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been in that room ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that questioning on the ground it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. What was the business of the Crescent Music Co. ? What 
commodity did they deal in ? 

Mr. Kastel. They handled music boxes, juke boxes, and records. 

Mr. Rice. Music boxes, juke boxes, and records where? 

Mr. IvASTEL. In the city of New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. And distributed them to locations ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did Jimmy Eisenburg have an interest at any time ? 

Mr. Kastel. The name sounded familiar but I believe that was an 
interest of Mr. Jaffe's. 

Mr. Rice. Yes ; now didn't Mrs. Loretta Costello have an interest ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What was your answer to Loretta Costello ? 

Mr. Kastel. My answer was "Yes." 

Mr. Rice. Was she in the company at the same time you were ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. She is the wife of Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. She had 25-percent interest? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say about the percentage; it is so long, but 
she had an interest. 

Mr. Rice. She had a half of your interest; did she not? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir; she had an interest; a participating interest 
in the company. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Now, didn't you buy the comxDany at one time, 
yourself? 1944? 

Mr. Ivastel. I believe it was a company that was purchased from 
someone. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Now, you bought the company, did you nob, and 
sold a half interest to Mrs. Loretta Costello? Isn't that correct? 

Mr. Kastel. Facts happen so fast; possibly about the same time. 

Mr. Rice. In other words, it was a simultaneous transaction ? 

]\Ir. Kastel. You have the date ; you have the record. 

Mr. Rice. On paper you took it over, but she actually had a half 
interest all the time. 

Mr. Kastel. She put up her money and had a half interest in the 
company. 

Mr. Rice. "Wliat became of that company ? 

Mr. Kastel. That company went out of business. 

Mr. Rice. Get anything from Dan Cohen ? 

Mr. Kastel. Sir? 

Mr. Rice. Did the company buy anything from Dan Cohen ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so. 



138 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EicE. What did they buy from Cohen ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't tell you offhand without the record. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't they buy music boxes from Dan Cohen? 

Mr. Kastel. Some ; some music boxes. 

Mr. Rice. Anything wrong with the music boxes ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Did the company make money ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would say "No." 

Mr. Rice. Did Dudley Geigerman have any connection with the 
Crescent Music Co. ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't he help on the selling route, or location route, 
collections? 

Mr. Ivastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that Geigerman was functioning then on a 
collection route for the Louisiana Mint and at the same time for the 
Crescent Music Co. ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that? 

Mr. Kastel. Pretty sure. 

Mr. Rice. Certain? 

Mr. Kastel. Pretty certain. 

Mr. Rice. That is w^ay back, now. 

Mr. Kastel. I know, but I know Geigerman had no connection as 
far as collecting any money for the Crescent Music Co. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. In connection with those juke boxes, or 
automatic music devices; did those bring about membership in any 
association, any phonograph-operators association ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. I don't believe the Crescent 
Music Co. was a member of any organization. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear of the Phonograph Operators Associa- 
tion of New Orleans ? 

Mr. Kastel. Did I ever hear of what? 

Mr. Rice. The Phonograph Operators Association of New Orleans. 

Mr. IvASTEL. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear of George Brennan ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What was his job ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't he president of that association ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't he collect $2 a week from each of the machines? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. Not from our company. 

Mr. Rice. How was the Crescent Music Co. terminated? What 
became of it? 

Mr. Kastel. Just couldn't make any money. It was liquidated and 
whatever assets were left were sold and some other concern took them 
over and paid for the assets, and took over the liabilities, I believe. 

Mr. Rice. Who took over the assets, Mr. Kastel ? 

Mr. Kastel. The record will show. I couldn't truthfully tell you 
the name of the company or the individual. The records will show 
it. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 139 

Mr. Rice. Did Dan Cohen take it back ? 

Mr. Kas'itel. No, sir; some other local operator here. 

JNIr. Rice. It was sold locally ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

]Mr. Rice. All right, sir ; now coming down to the Beverly Country 
Club, When was that establishment started ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe it was in 1945. 

Mr. Rice. 1945. Now, tell us how you happened to become con- 
nected with the Beverly Country Club. 

Mr. Kastel. If you don't mind asking the questions, I'll try to 
answer them. I am not going to sit here and tell you a big, long 
story. 

Mr. Rice. My question is. How did you become connected? Did 
you buy into it yourself ? Did you buy the whole club ? What hap- 
pened ? 

Mr. Kastel. I just leased it. 

Mr. Rice. Did you lease it as an individual? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. From whom did you lease it? 

Mr. Kastel. I leased it from A. G. Rickerfor. 

Mr. Rice. Now, you are talking about the land and building? 

Mr. Kastel, Yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Was Mr. Rickerfor the owner? 

Mr. Kastel, Yes, sir, 

Mr, Rice, Is he still the owner ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir, 

Mr. Rice. You subsequently bought it ? 

Mr. Kastel. Subsequently it was taken over. 

]\Ir. Rice, Now, when you say, "We leased it", who is "we" ? 

The Chairman, That is a corporation ? 

Mr, Rice, Yes, 

The Chairman, Ask him if it is a corporation. 

Mr, Rice, You say "We leased"— — 

Mr, Kastel. It wlis leased by whoever had an interest in the com- 
pany at that time, which the records will show. 

Mr. Rice. I understood you to say that "we leased it from Mr. 
Rickerfor." Is that right? 

Mr, Kastel, That is right, 

Mr, Rice. Who are you referring to when you say "we" ? 

Mr. Kastel. The people who are interested in the company today, 

Mr. Rice. Who are they ? 

Mr. Kastel. You have the records there. 

Mr. Rice. You tell me. 

The Chairman, Ask him some specific questions. 

Mr, Rice, It is a going company today. Isn't that right? 

Mr. Kastel. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Who are the parties in interest? 

Mr. Kastel. Myself, Mr. Costello. 

Mr. Rice, Now, as of the moment then, the owners are you and 
Mr, Costello? 

Mr, Kastel. And some others. 

Mr. Rice. Who are the others? 

Mr. Kastel. Mr. Marcello. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 8 — —10 



140 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. KicE. Wliat Marcello? 

Mr. Kastel. Carlos Marcello. 

Mr. Rice. Who else ? 

Mr. Kastel. Mr. Rickerfor. 

Mr. Rice. And who else? 

Mr. Kastel. And Dudley Geigerman, 

Mr. Rice. All right. What is the percentage of interest, now? 

Mr. Kastel. You will have to look at the records to find that out. 

Mr. Rice. All right, we'll see if this isn't so. Phillip Kastel, 473/2 
percent; Frank Costello, 20 percent; A. G. Rickerfor, 171/2 percent; 
Carlos Marcello, 121/2 percent ; and Dudley Geigerman, 2i^ percent. 

Mr. Kastel. That sounds about correct. 

Mr. Rice. That is according to your stock records, sir ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. May I ask. I thought Lansky had an interest. 

Mr. Kastel. He did have an interest. Senator. It was sold about — 
I believe almost 2 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. Now, the property was acquired in 1945 you say ? 

Mr. KLvsTEL. I believe Rickerfor acquired the property. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. And did you form a corporation ? 

Mr. Kastel. And leased it to us. 

Mr. Rice. Did you immediately form a corporation ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say whether it was immediately or after- 
ward. . 

Mr. Rice. When Lansky had an interest, was it a corporation then ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir ; I believe it was. 

Mr. Rice. Who else besides Lansky was in there ? 

Mr. Kastel, You have the names there. That's all. Whatever 
names show in there. 

Mr. Rice. Was Lansky the only other one besides the names that 
have been mentioned ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wliich Lansky was it ? 

Mr. Kastel. Meyer Lansky. 

Mr. Rice. Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. In the Louisiana Mint it was Jack Lansky, his brother ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. RrcE. This was his brother, Meyer? 

Mr. Kastel. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Did Jack Lansky have an interest in this ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are there any parties 

Mr. O'Connor. AVait a minute. Did Jack Lansky have an interest 
in what ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. In the Beverly ? 

Mr. Kastel. The answer is "No." 

Mr. Rice. Jack had an interest in the Louisiana Mint. 

Mr. Kastel. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Meyer in the Beverly. 

Mr. Kastel. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. What percentage of interest, or what amount of in- 
vestment did Meyer Lansky have ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 141 

Mr. Kastel. The records will sliow that. 

Mr. Rice. You tell us. 

Mr. Kastel. I cfin't tell you offhand without the records. 

Mr. Rice. What became of him ? 

Mr. Kastel. What do you mean, what became of him ? 

Mr. Rice. Wlio bought his interest ? 

Mr. Kastel. I bought his interest. 

JSIr. Rice. What did you pay for it ? 

Mr. Kastel. You will find that in the records. I can't tell you off- 
hand. 

Mr. Rice. A hundred thousand ? 

Mr. Kastel. ^Vliatever the book value was. 

Mr. O'Connor. I object to that on the ground it is not pertinent 
to this investigation. He's admitted an interest, he has admitted he's 
bought it, and the things you wanted to find out and all that, and 
specially when we have an income tax here next week. I object to 
that. 

Mr. Rice. At the time that Meyer Lansky was in the company 
what percentage of interest did he have ? 

Mr, Kastel. The records will show that. 

The Chairman. I think he had I2I/2 percent. 

Mr. Kastel. I believe it is more than that. Senator, but the record 
will show it ; I cannot remember what the records show. 

Mr. Rice. What do you believe it was ? 

Mr. Kastel. I am not going to think; I am not going to guess. 
You have the records. 

Mr. Rice. Now, did you produce the stock records ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Take a look at the stock records and tell us exactly what 
Meyer Lansky had. 

(Mr. Kastel examined the documents.) 

The Chairman. All right. What was the amount of stock he 
owned ? What is the total amount ? 

Mr. Kastel. I think about 20 percent. 

Mr. O'Connor. About 20 shares of common stock. 

Mr. Kastel. I think that is about what it was : about 20 percent. 
It shows 20 shares. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Does anyone have an interest in your interest, Mr. 
Kastel ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Does anyone have an interest in your interest? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You own it entirely in your own right ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Bugsy Siegel ? 

Mr. Kastel. Do I know him ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Did you know him ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes ; I knew him slightly ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Was he a partner of Meyer Lansky ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. Did Bugsy Siegel have an interest ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not say. 

Mr. Rice. Did he have a part of Meyer's interest ? 



142 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTEESTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. KiCE. Why did Meyer Lansky sell ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. What was the deal? You bought it from him. 

Mr. Kastel. The proposition was not making enough money to 
suit him, I guess. 

Mr. Rice. Was it making enough money to suit you ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not particularly. 

Mr. Rice. Why did you buy it? 

Mr. Kastel. I thought it would be all right for me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, at the time that Meyer Lansky had an interest 
in the club, were you forwarding copies of a financial statement to 
Meyer ? 

Mr. Kastel. Was I? No. 

Mr. Rice. Was the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. Was he receiving copies of the financial statement? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not say. 

Mr. Rice. Did he have an accountant ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he had an accountant ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. And what was the name of the accountant ? 

Mr. Kastel. I think it was an accountant by the name of George 
Goldstein. 

Mr. Rice. He was in New Jersey ? 

Mr. Kastel. I think so. 

Mr. Rice. In Newark? 

Mr. Kastel. I think so. 

Mr. Rice. Is not he also an accountant for some people in Florida ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not say. I don't know the man's business. 

Mr. Rice. Is he an accountant for you ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is he an accountant for Costello ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Is he an accountant for Rickerfor? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know Rickerf or's business. 

Mr. Rice. Is he an accountant for anyone connected with Beverly, 
except Meyer? 

Mr. Kastel. You will have to ask him. I am only talking for my- 
self, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Well, now, sir, the Beverly, in which you were the con- 
trolling party, or manager, or principal, here, was sending financial 
statements to Goldstein. Is that not right? You would send a 
monthly statement up there ? 

Mr. Kastel. I never sent a monthly statement to him. 

Mr. Rice. Who keeps the books, or who has kept the books of the 
company locally here? 

Mr. Kastel. You mean the certified — the c. p. a. ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. Charles Murphy. 

Mr. Rice. Was Murphy instructed to send statements to Goldstein ? 

Mr. Kasi'el. It is possible. 

Mr. Rice. Possible. Now, sir, with that possibility 

Mr. O'Connor. May I ask by whom he was instructed? Ask him 
that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 143 

Mr. Rice. Yes. I would like to know that. 
By whom was he instructed to do that ? 

Mr. O'Connor. You asked the question, was he instructed by Mr. 
Kastel or someone else. That is what we want. 

The Chairman. All right. Was he instructed and by whom was 

!he instructed to send 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know by whom, Senator; it might have been 
Mr. Lansky himself. 

The Chairman. But you know he was instructed to send them up 
there ? 

Mr. Kastel. So it appears. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, Meyer Lansky sold his interest in 1948. Is 
there any reason for sending financial statements to Goldstein after 
that date, the date of the sale ? 

Mr. Kastel. No particular reason. Only that it might have gone 
along automatically in case he did receive them. It would not be 
my instructions one way or the other. 

Mr. Rice. Did you. ever cancel the instructions ? 
(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. Is Goldstein receiving statements today ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible ? 

Mr. Kastel. It is possible, yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, what is the business of the Beverly Club ? 

Mr. Kastel. It is a restaurant and night club. 

Mr. Rice. Restaurant and night club. Now, anything else ? 

Mr. Kastel. We sell liquor. 

Mr. Rice. Anything else ? Does it have a casino ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground the 
question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. On your books and records where the word "casino" is 
used, what do you mean by that ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds the 
question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Is that the same as the restaurant ? 

]\Ir. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the ground that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Where your books and records use the words "win" and 
"lose," does that refer to the restaurant ? 

]Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
the question may tend to incriminate me, 

Mr. Rice. Does it refer to the casino ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question, on the same grounds. 

Mr. Rice. Does it refer to gambling ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. What is your title in connection with the club ? 

Mr. Kastel, I am the president. 

Mr. Rice. You are the president. 

Mr. Kastel. And general manager. 

Mr. Rice. And general manager ? 

Mr. Kastel, Yes, sir. 



144 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. KicE. All right, sir. Now then, you do the hiring and firing? 

Mr. Kastel. Not always. 

Mr. Rice. Who is in charge of that ? 

Mr. Kastel. I have some assistants. 

Mr. Rice. How many employees do you haye ? 

Mr. Kastel. The records will show it. 

Mr. Rice. How many employees do you have ? 

Mr. Kastel. Possibly in the neighborhood of 120 or 130. 

Mr. Rice. About 120 or 130? 

Mr. Kastel. More or less. 

Mr. Rice. What is your total payroll, weekly ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not tell you that offhand, without the records. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, are all of those 130 employees employed in 
either the restaurant or the night club phase ? 

jSIr. Kastel. Would you mind phrasing that question again ? 

Mr. Rice. Are all the employees employed in the restaurant ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have employees in the casino ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, is Mr. Murphy here ? 

Mr. O'Connor. I don't know. Do you know ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not say. I don't know. Call his name out. 

The CnAiR3iAN. Let's go to something else. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, possibly we can stipulate a little bit here. The 
committee staff has examined the books, with the assistance of Mr. 
Murphy, the accountant. Possibly we can work out one or two things. 

The Chairman. Let's state what you find the books show and ask 
him if that is true. 

Mr. Rice. We find the books and records for the fiscal year ending 
November 30 — j' ou work on a fiscal year ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. 1949 ; reflect that the restaurant had an income of $191:,- 
038.65, and that there were expenses of $1,093,989. Therefore, that 
year there was an operating loss, in the restaurant, of $599,950.35. 
Now, that is what the books show. Do you have any other business be- 
sides the restaurant ? 

Mr. Kastel. Under that room ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. No — I refuse to answer that question on the 
ground it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, the restaurant lost a half million dollars. Do you 
have any other business that keeps it alive ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. For the same period, according to your books, the income 
from the casino was $93,119. The expenses for the casino were $261,- 
.568.42. Accordingly, the profit for the casino was $677,550.58. This 
is according to your books. Now, sir, you, in response to the subpena 
turned in copies of your Federal income-tax return for the same year, 
1949. We find that on the Federal income tax 

Mr. O'Connor. Wait a minute. Are you going into his Federal 
income tax now ? May I ask that question, Mr. Rice ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 145 

Mr. Rice. No ; we are going to ask him- 



Mr. O'Connor. Questions relating to Federal income tax ? 

Mr. Rice. No; we are asking him questions relating to the income 
and expense 

Mr. O'Connor. As based from his Federal income tax? 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Counsel, you may decide. We will ask the questions. 

The Chairman. Are these from the records and books ? 

Mr. O'Connor. I think inasmuch as you have ruled that 

The Chairman. All right. 

JSIr. Rice. Now, sir, from an examination of the income-tax return 
that you have supplied in response to the subpena I find a slight dis- 
crepancy there : That the casino expenses which were shown on the 
books previously at $261,568.42 were recorded in the tax return at 
$699,027.52. 

Mr. O'Connor. I am going to object to all this on the following 
grounds : This committee was given the authority by the President to 
look into the income-tax returns of individuals. We returned that 
to you. But to make them public, I don't believe that this committee, 
even with the lax rules that it has, has the right to go into that, and 
I sincerely object to that and urge my objection to that. 

The Chairman. Mr. O'Connor, we are not — these are records you 
brought in ; not anything we got 

Mr. O'Connor. In accordance with your subpena, sir, so that you 
can look at them. The Federal Government says you can. The Presi- 
dent gave you the right for the first time in history to go into the 
income-tax returns, to look at them to help your committee. We did 
not want to hinder your committee ; we let your committee have these 
things ; in conformity with that we complied, but to make them pub- 
lic, I don't think that was ever the intention, and we object strenu- 
ously. 

The Chairman. Well, of course, we would have the right. We are 
not using anything we got except wliat we got from you, sir. 

Mr. O'Connor. Under the authority of the Senate resolution, sir. 

The Chairman. No, sir ; the authority of the Senate resolution is for 
us to get them somewhere else. What we are referring to we got from 
you. Anyway, the point is, and the question is, one place you charged 
off a whole lot, you showed you lost a lot of money in the restaurant, 
and the other place you showed you made a lot of money in the res- 
taurant, and we are just wondering how the books are kept that way. 

Mr. Kastel. Senator, I couldn't answer that without the c. p.' a. I 
am not an auditor, and I am not a bookkeeper. The man gets paid for 
that work, and I would appreciate it if you would ask him. 

The Chairman. We will ask him, then. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. As the president of the company, do you 
charge in your books expenses for entertainment and advertising to the 
restaurant or the casino? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true you charge all those expenses to the res- 
taurant, in the books? 

Mr. Kastel. (No response.) 

Mr. Rice. Can you explain that shift in expenses, sir? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not tell you offhand without the record. You 
have the record in front of you. You will have to call the c. p. a. 



146 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. All riglit, sir. Now, then, who are the officers of the 
corporation ? 

Mr. Kastel. You have the record there. 

Mr. Rice. You are the president. Who is the vice president ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not tell you oifhand, without the record. 

Mr. Rice. Who is the treasurer? 

The Chairman. Mr. (Ralph) Mills, look at the books and let's 
refresh the witness' recollection, if he doesn't know. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Kastel, you are the president of the corporation. 
Who are the other officers ? 

Mr. Kastel. You have them there in the records. 

Mr. Rice. Let's look at them. You have it down there. 

Mr, Kastel. I have not seen them. 

Mr. Rice. Wlio are the other officers ? Don't you know ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't tell you offhand. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not tell you offhand. 

Mr. Rice. You are the president of the corporation. You don't 
know who your treasurer is? 

Mr. Kastel. You have it on record. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know who your vice president is? Who are 
your board of directors? 

Mr. Kastel. You have it on record. 

Mr. Rice. Are you a member of the board of directors ? 

The Chairman. Mr. Kastel, it doesn't make any difference whether 
we have the record or not. You know who the vice ])resident and the 
treasurer, and so forth, are. Tell us about it. Or if you know who 
the board of directors are, whether we have the record or whether we 
have not. 

Mr. Kastel. I cannot answer that quevStion. 

Mr. Rice, Are you a member of the board of directors ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who else is on the board of directors ? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Can you name one ? 

Mr, Kastel. I can't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Can you name any other one officer ? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice, Now, sir, you are doing a million-dollar business a year; 
you don't know who the officers are ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. Do you want to stand on that answer ? 

Mr. Kastel. You have the record there. 

Mr. Rice. Do you realize, sir, that if you refuse to answer when you 
do know the answer it constitutes a contempt ? 

Mr. Kastel. Are you threatening me ? 

Mr. Rice. No, I am telling you. 

The Chairman. I understand that you did not bring in the record 
book showing who the officers are ? 

Mr. O'Connor. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Kastel. Let me see the record. 

Mr. O'Connor. We gave the committee everything we have. 

Mr. Martin. Not that one, 

Mr. Ralph Mills. No, not that one. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 147 

Mr. O'Connor. We g:ave yon everytliino^ we liad. 

The Chairman. Well, the minute book apparently has not been 
bronijht in, as to who the officers are. 

Mr. 0"CoNNO"R. I shall be glad to brrng it in. There are possibly 
some changes made recently and I don't want to go on record when I 
don't know what I am talking about. 

The Chairman. Who were the officers before the changes were 
made ? 

]Mr. KJ^sTEi.. I was the president from the inception. 

Mr. EicE. AVho were some of the officers at any time ? Mr. Charles 
Murphy is the secretary-treasurer. He is the accountant? 

Mr. Kastel. He is the accountant ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. He is a c. p. a. ? 

INIr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. In this State? 

The Chairman. Let's get any other officers we can get. Who are 
the other officers ? 

Mr. Kastel. I could not tell you offhand, without the records. 

Mr. Rice. You cannot remember any officers at any time 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. In the last 4 years ? 

The Chairman. Is Marcello an officer? 

My. Kastel. No, sir. I haven't looked at it. 

Mr. Rice. Costello? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Geigerman? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Rickerfor? 

Mr. Kastel. No, not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. Will yoii have Mr. Murphy bring the minute book 
up in the morning so we can see just who the officers are ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. O'Connor. I want to make a notation on that. Who do you 
want us to bring that to. Senator — to you or to Mr. Rice? 

The Chairman. To Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir do the officers receive salaries as officers ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would say no, outside of myself. I would say no. 
The answer is "No." 

Mr. Rice. Are you the onl}^ paid officer ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. Are the other officers paid ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would have to look at the records. 

Mr. Rice. Are the officers all stockholders ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so. They have to be. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. You know who all the stockholdei-s are, 
don't you ? 

Mr. Kastel. There may be some small shares, somebody may have 
one share of stock and be an officer. 

Mr. Rice. Oh, I see. Who might that be ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Well, let's not speculate. Let's get down to facts here. 

Mr. Kastel. Well, I do not know. That is my answer. 

Mr. Rice. Is there anyone with an interest of one or two shares ? 



148 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Kastfx. My answer is, I do not know. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible? 

Mr. Kastel. I would not answer it. 

Mr. Rice. I don't believe your books show that anyone might have 
one share. 

Mr. Kastel. Well, you check them and you wnll find out. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

Now, then, what does Mr. Frank Costello do for the corporation? 

Mr. Kastel. He does a lot of good-will work. 

Mr. Rice, He does good-will work ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Will you amplify that a little bit ? 

Mr. Kastel. He takes care of, partly, entertainment. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat good-will work does he do ? 

Mr. Kastel. Telling people about the club. 

Mr. Rice. Telling people ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, what does he tell them ? 

Mr. Kastel. He asks them, when they come to New Orleans, to 
patronize the place. 

Mr, Rice. Now, then, where does he do this good-will work? 

Mr. Kastel. Wherever he happens to be. 

Mr. Rice. Wliere is that, mostly ? 

Mr. Kastel, Wlierever he happens to be at the time. 

Mr, Rice. Is it sometimes at Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Kastel. Possible. 

Mr. Rice. Sometimes in Florida? 

Mr. Kastel. Possible. 

Mr. Rice. Sometimes in New York ? 

Mr. Kastel. Possible. 

Mr. Rice. Sometimes in Chicago? 

Mr. Kastel, Possible, 

Mr, Rice, Now, sir. he does the good-will work by telling people 
when they go to New Orleans to do what ? 

Mr. Kastel. To patronize the club. 

Mr. Rice. To patronize the club. 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, what people does he tell ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Does he tell anybody ? 

Mr. Kastel. I imagine people he comes in contact with. 

Mr. Rice. Does he do anything else for the club, or the company? 

Mr. Kastel. He advises with me at times. 

Mr. Rice. He advises with you. What do you mean by that? 

Mr. Kastel. About entertainment. 

Mr, Rice. He advises you about entertainment ? 

Mr. Kastel. About entertainment. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Is he an employee of the company ? 

Mr. Kastel, Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Is he on the payroll as an employee ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you pay social security on him ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 149 

Mr. Rice. And unemployment compensation? 
Mr. Kastel. I believe so. 

JNIr. Rice. Now, sir, what does he draw for this good-will work that 
he does ? 

Mr. Kastel. The records will sliow it. 

Mr. Rice. From your own knowledge, what does he draw? 

Mr. Kastel. From my own knowledge. [Pause.] 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. I show you a check. No. 8148, dated 
October 28, 1949, of the Beverly Country Club, in the amount of 
$3,468.80, drawn to Frank Costello, 115 Central Park West, New 
York. 

]Mr. Kastel. Let me see it. 

Mr. Rice. And I ask you what that is for. 

Mr. Kastel. Would you mind looking at the books ? I didn't sign 
this check. Mr. Murphy signed it. 

Mr. Rice. Does Costello clraw an even amount, odd amount, or how 
does he get paid ? Weekly, monthly ? 

Mr. Kastel. Monthly. 

Mr. Rice. He gets paid that much a month ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. O'Connor. He did not say he was paid that much. He is not 
referring to that. He said this check is not signed by him. 

Mr. Rice. Yes ; but he is the president ; doesn't he approve the checks 
that are drawn? 

Mr. O'Connor. This is signed by Murphy. 

Mr. Rice. We are asking the witness. Don't you approve the checks 
that are drawn? 

Mr. Kastel. Not always. 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

Mr. Kastel. I didn't approve that. I didn't know anything about 
that. I don't recall this particular check. 

Mr. Rice. Murphy can draw any check in any amount ? 

Mr. Kastel. He can draw any check necessary; yes, sir, if he sees 
that the records call for it, he can draw it. He has the authority. 

Mr. Rice. How much does Costello draw a month for his good-will 
work, $867.20? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe that was the figure. 

Mr. Rice. I see two checks here dated June and July 1950 ; check 
No. 10069, dated June 21, 1950, in the amount of $867.20, drawn to 
Frank Costello, signed by Philip Kastel 

Mr. O'Connor. May we see it? 

Mr. Rice. Of the Beverly Country Club. What is that for [hand- 
ing document to counsel] ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is his salary check. 

Mr. O'Connor. Salary check, for his good, will? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. O'Connor. Answer it. 

Mr. Kastel. That is a thousand dollars, less the deductions. 

Mr. Rice. Yes; a thousand dollars, less deductions for social 
security. 

Mr. Kastel. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. So that he draws a thousand dollars a month, doesn't he? 

Mr. Kastel. That's right. 



150 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. What is the $3,000 check for ? 
Mr. Kastel. You will have to ask Mr. Murphy about that check. 
Mr. Rice. Does Costello draw any money besides his good-will work 
for which he receives a thousand dollars a month. 
Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 
Mr. Rice. Well, here is the check. 

Mr. Kastel. We will have to ask Mr. Murphy what it is. 
The Chairman. Let's describe the check a little better here : 

Beverly Country Club. Check No. 8148. New Orleans, La., October 28, 1949, 
§3,468.80. Frank Costello, 115 Central Avenue Park, West. Beverly Country 
Club, Inc. Charles D. Murphy. To Progressive Bank & Trust Co., Nevp Orleans. 

And it is endorsed "Frank Costello" and apparently either cashed 
or deposited in the Corn Exchange Bank in New York, on November 
2, 1949. 

Well, these checks speak for themselves. Thej seem to be $1,000 
a month, with these extra amounts. 

Mr. O'Connor. I think Mr. Murphy can explain that check better 
than Mr. Kastel. 

The Chairman. Let them be made a part of the record. 
(The checks were made a part of the record as "Exhibit No. 16" and 
are on file with the committee.) 

Mr. Rice. Well, now, Mr. Kastel is present. If we find from an 
examination of the records that Costello drew substantially more than 
the thousand dollars a month, what were the additional payments? 
Wliat is he entitled to? Anj^ dividends, any interest, any other re- 
payment on loans? 

Mr. Kasteiv. He would be entitled to repayment on loans; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Has he loaned the club money? 

Mr. Kastel. Well, we all have. 

Mr. Rice. You all have. So that it is possible this is repayment of 
a loan ? 

Mr. Kastel. I wouldn't say ; you will have to ask Mr. Murphy. 

Mr. O'Connor. Tell them. 

The Chairman. Mr. O'Connor, let the — — 

Mr. O'Connor. I want to explain it. I think I can explain it if 
you will ask me. 

The Chairman. Wait just a minute. Move over. Let the witness 
answer. I think you might get him confused. 

Mr. O'Connor. I was going to try and help you. From now on I 
won't help you if that's your position in the matter. I was going to 
try to help you. I told him to explain what that check was. 

The Chairman. If you can help us we will be glad to have your 
explanation. 

Mr. O'Connor. I think I am entitled to consult with my client at 
any time, sir. I am not trying to put words in his mouth. 

The Chairman. While he is testifying don't be talking with him. 
Let him do his own talking. 

Mr. O'Connor. I was not talking with him, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, some noise I heard from down there. 

Mr. O'Connor. There could be a lot of noises buzzing around here, 
sir. 

The Chairiman. All right. Let's go on. 

Mr. O'Connor. I was going to help you, and maybe you would have 
gotten an answer. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 151 

The Chairman. Well, we will get one on something else. 

Mr. O'Connor. I think I have been very helpful to you gentlemen. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Kice ; let's carry on. 

Mr. Kastel. I believe I know what this is, Senator, but I am not 
sure, and I don't care to answer until I consult with Mr. Murphy 
tomorrow morning, if you don't mind. 

The Chairman. Well, do you want to give us your best idea about 

it? 

Mr. Kastel. My best idea is it was an increase in salary and I be- 
lieve covers about 2 months. That is my best answer. I am not sure. 

Mr. Kice. Now then, sir, an increase in salary in October 1949 ? 

Mr. Kastel. I think so ; I am not sure. 

The Chairman. Well, these other checks, though, for a little less 
than $900 were 1950, so maybe it was an increase in salary during 1949. 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so. I am not sure; I would rather consult 
with Mr. Murphy. 

The Chairman. All right. You consult with Mr. Murphy and we 
will ask him, or you, what it is. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, sir, I believe an examination of the records 
show that at about that time there was a surplus of some $70,000 to the 
credit of the company. I take it at that time that Costello's salary 
was increased. An examination of the records shows that within the 
next 6 months the company showed a loss of some $197,000. How do 
you account for that? 

Mr. Kastel. The records speak for themselves ; if there was a loss 
there was a loss. 

Mr. Rice. This was last winter, from November to March, 

Mr. Kastel. If there was a loss there was a loss. 

Mr. Rice. When is your busy season ? 

Mr. Kastel. About this time of the year ; holiday time. 

Mr. Rice. Do you generally lose money in the busy season ? 

Mr. Kastel. Sometimes. 

Mr. O'Connor. I object to that; he didn't say he lost money at all, 
sir — I withdraw that ; pardon me. I withdraw that, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you said you paid Costello social security ; you 
paid social security for him? Is it not true that his social security 
number, for Frank" Costello, is 092-22-3576 ? 

Mr. Kastel. I do not know. 

Mr. Rice. Can you find it on the record ? 

Mr. Kastel. I haven't looked at that record. 

The Chairman. All right. If that is what it shows on the record, 
why that must be it. 

Mr. Rice (handing document to witness) . Take a look at the record ; 
see if you don't see it there. 

Mr. Kastel. If it is there, it's there. I don't have to look at it. 
You are good enough. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, who is Louis Joseph Costello ? 

Mr. Kastel. He is an employee. 

Mr. Rice. Is he related to Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. That is his nephew. 

Mr. Rice. That is his nephew. Now, where is Louis Joseph Costello 
located ? 

Mr. Kastel. In the city of New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. What does he do for the Beverly ? 



152 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. K^STEL. He works. 

Mr. KicE. Wlint does he do? 

Mr. Kastel. II3 works there. 

Mr. Rice. What type of work does he do? 

Mr. Chairman. Well, does he work out in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. He works out in the club ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Does he work in the casino or the restaurant? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question about the casino. 

Mr. Rice. Does he work in the restaurant ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did he work in the kitchen ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Jack T. Costello? 

Mr. Kastel. Jack T. Costello? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. He shows on your payroll a number of times ; Jack 
T. Costello. 

Mr. Ivastel. I do not know. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know him ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, Charles Murphy, the accountant : Is he paid 
on a fee basis or on a salary basis? 

INIr. Kastel. On a salary basis. 

Mr. Rice. So that he is an employee. Do you deduct social security ? 

Mr. Kastel. I wouldn't say whether it is on a salary or fee basis. 
He gets paid for his work. I don't know how technical it is. 

Mr. Rice. Is social security deducted from payments for Mr. 
Murphy ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know ; I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. Can you check the records and find out? 

Mr. Kastel. You can ask Mr. Murphy ; that is the simplest way. 

Mr. Rice. How about asking you ? You know. 

Mr. E^astel. I would have to check it. I don't know ; I couldn't 
say. 

Mr. Rice. What are his arrangements? 

Mr. Kastel. He's an accountant and looks after all the books and 
records of the company. 

Mr. Rice. Now, does he work in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. At times he works in the club ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is he the same as Charles J. Murphy who appears on 
your payroll ? Is he the same as Charles D. Murphy, the c. p. a. ? 

Mr. Kastel. Charles B. Murphy is a c. p. a. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Do you have a Charles J. ? 

Mr. Kastel. Charles J.? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. I don't know who Charles J. is. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Now then, how about E. F. Broussard? Who 
is he? 

Mr. Kastel. He is connected with Mr. Murphy's office. 

Mr. Rice. Is he paid on a salary basis ? 

Mr. Kastel. He is not paid by this company — only for extra work 
that he does at times. 

Mr. Rice. He does what, at times ? 

Mr. Kastel. Sometimes he may do some extra work. 



ORGANIZED CRIME' IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 153 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, sir, when he does extra work and you pay him, 
do yon deduct social security ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't say ; I imagine it is deductible. 

Mr. Rice. Your records show September 30, 1950, there was a pay- 
ment of $600 to Broussard for social security ; does that refresh your 
recollection ? » 

Mr. Kastel. That it was deducted, you say ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel, Well, if it is there, it was deducted. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, Solly Rappaport: Is he an employee? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. You refuse to answer whether or not Solly Rappaport is 
an emploj^ee? 

Mr. Kastel. On the ground that the question may tend to incrimi- 
nate me. 

Mr. Rice. What does Solly Rappaport do for Beverly? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. How about Mitchel A. Italiano? Does he work for the 
Beverly ? 

Mr. Ivastel. I don't know him. 

Mr. Rice. You never heard of Mitchel A. Italiano. Do you have 
an employee named Italiano ? 

Mr. Kastel, No, sir ; I don't believe so. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had ? 

Mr. Kastel. It may be possible. 

Mr. Rice. If the records show you have an employee ? 

Mr. Kastel. If the records show, then it is possible. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, Peter Joseph Marcello : Is he an employee ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. The record shows that Peter Joseph Marcello is an em- 
ployee. What does he do ? 

Mr, Kastel, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Is he a relative of Carlos Marcello ? 

Mr. Kastel, I believe he is. 

Mr. Rice. What relation ? 

Mr. Kastel. His brother. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know him? 

Mr. Kastel. I know him ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. What does he do for a living? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
ic may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. What does Carlos Marcello do for a living? 

Mr. Kastel. You will have to ask him. 

Mr. Rice. To your knowledge. 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice, Isn't it true that Peter Joseph Marcello works in the 
casino at the club ? 

Mr, Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
tlie question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice, All right. Anthony J. or Louis Cominotto: Is he an 
employee ? 



154 ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. EiCE. What does he do ? 

Mr. Kastel. He is a chef. 

Mr. Rice. He's a chef. Now, then, sir, what are your arrangements ? 
Are you paid quarterly, weekly, or monthly? 

Mr. Kastel. Some departments it's weekly «and some departments 
it's biweekly. 

Mr. Rice. You personally, as president; how are you paid? 

Mr. Kastel. Monthly, 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, do you draw a salary ? 

Mr. K:\stel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And, in addition to your salary, do you have any other 
income from the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. You are on a straight salary ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, don't you also draw dividends? 

Mr. Kastel. If there are any dividends, I would draw them ; sure. 

Mr. Rice. What controls the declaration of dividends ? Who decides 
that? 

Mr. Kastel. The amount of money on hand would decide that. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Now, who gets together and decides to declare a 
dividend ? 

Mr. Kastel. The accountant. 

Mr. Rice. The accountant does the deciding? 

Mr. Kastel. And myself. 

Mr. Rice. You assist him? 

Mr. Kastel. Sir ? 

Mr. Rice. Do you assist him ? 

Mr. Kastel. Do I assist the accountant? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. No. In what way ? 

Mr. Rice. What formula does he use for arriving at the amount of 
the dividend ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. You are the president of the company. 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. You are disbursing some of the assets. What instruc- 
tions does the accountant have ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know ? 

Mr. Kastel. I haven't given him any instructions recently. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever give him any instructions ? 

Mr. Kastel. I have given him a lot of instructions. 

Mr. Rice. Relating to dividends? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, the club is located in Jefferson Parish ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who is the sheriff in Jefferson Parish ? 

Mr. Kastel. Frank J. Clancy. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know him? 

Mr. Kastel. Slightly. 

Mr. Rice. Has he been in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 155 

Mr. RiGE. Never been in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, isn't it true that the club is open to the public ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And Clancy has never been in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible he has been there without your knowledge ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't answer that. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, isn't it true that the club operates outside the 
law? 

Mr. Kastel. Sir? 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that the club operates outside the law ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. How do you make the arrangements to operate that way ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that the 
question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Has any money been paid to any law-enforcement officer 
from the club? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse — what was that question ? 

Mr. Rice. Has any money been paid to any law-enforcement officer 
from the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. Any law enforcement officer from the club ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. O'Connor. He means, did you pay anybody. 

Mr. Kastel. i)id I pay anybody ? No. My answer is "No." 

Mr. Rice. You are quite sure of that ? 

Mr. Kastel. My answer is "No." 

Mr. Rice. Has any law-enforcement officer drawn any money from 
the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. Has any money been paid to any law-enforcement officer, 
indirectly, from the club? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Paul Cassagne? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What is his job? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he is a deputy sheriff. 

Mr. Rice. Has he ever been in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. I have seen him in the club. 

Mr. Rice. What was he doing in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. He came to ask me to put some men to work. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now, who did he ask you to put to work ? 

Mr. Kastel. Oh, I couldn't remember the names now. He asked 
me on several occasions if I had any room to put some men to work 
for him. 

Mr. Rice, Yes, sir. Now, wdiere did those conversations take place? 

Mr. Kastel. Sometimes downstairs in an office. 

Mr. Rice. And sometimes in your upstairs office ? 

Mr. Kastel. No ; I have no office upstairs. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Has Cassagne ever been in the casino part 
of the club? 

68958 — 51 — pt. 8 11 



156 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Has Cassagne ever been in the casino part of the club 
with you? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on tlie ground the 
question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. As you go in tlie front door of the club, what is located 
immediately on your right? Is there a room there? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answ^er that question on the ground that the 
question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true that in the room immediately to your right 
there are dice tables and roulette wheels ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
the question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. O'CoNNOK. Let me shorten it for you. May I say something? 
When he says he refuses, let the rest of the answer follow^, sir. 

The CiiAiR]\ON. Yes; w^e understand. 

Mr. O'CoNNon, You understand i All right. That will save some 
time. 

The Chairmaiv". Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Are there any deputy sheriif s on the payroll of the Beverly 
Club? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know if any employees ai'e deputy sheriffs. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an employee named Roth ? 

Mr. Kastel. What is the name? 

Mr. Rice. Roth ; R-o-t-h. 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say without the records. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an employee named Cy Ernst ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Cy Ernst ? 

Mr. Kastel. Slightly. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that he drives you home occasionally ? 

Mr. IvASTEL. Occasicnally ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't Cy Ernst a deputy sheriff? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes ; he is a deputy sheriff. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, what is he paid for that ? 

Mr. Kastel. He is not paid. 

Mr. Rice. Doesn't he draw some $25 a week for driving you home? 

Mr. Kastel. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible t^hat he does ? 

Mr. Kastel. I won't say it is possible or it's not possible. 

Mr. Rice. Why does he drive you home ? You drive, don't you ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not always, not always. I had an accident and I 
haven't driven for a long time. There have been a lot of stick-ups 
in that neighborhood, and 1x3 drives me home the same as he would 
likely drive you home if yoi' asked him, or anybody else. 

Mr. Rice. I see ; and for that service he gets paid. 

Mr. Kastel. I don't pay him for any service at all. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever paid him anything ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my kno\Aledge. No ; I don't believe so. 

Mr. Rice. He does this as a favor to you, then ? 

]Mr. Kastel. He doesn't drive me o.^ten enough to call it a favor, or 
anvthine: else. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 157 

Mr. Ktce. How about Eotli ; does he diive you i 

Mr. Kasii^l. 1 don't know Kolli. 

Mr. KiCE. Do 3'ou use an ainiored-car service? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

]Mr. Rice. Are the receipts for the evening at the chib maintained 
on the chib premises !? Is there a safe there ? 

JNfr. KAsri<:L. Yes, sir. 

INIr. Rice. And do you carry large sums with you when you leave? 

]SIr, KAsn:L. At times. 

Mr. O'Connor. I object to that question, not only for the purpose of 
the record but for other reasons. You can nnderstand that. Senator. 

Mr. Rice. Now, do you know an}" officers on the Louisiana State 
Highway Patrol, or State police? 

Mr. Kastel. Do I know any officers ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. Know them in what way ? 

Mr. Rice. Well, for instance, do you know any officers who might 
bring you license plates ;* 

INIr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. On January 18, 1951, a nniformed officer of the Louisiana 
State Police delivered to your office and placed on your desk some 
Louisiana automobile tags. What do you have to say about that? 

Mr. Kastel. I have nothing to say about it. I don't know anything 
about it. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you get your license plates? 

Mr. Kastel. We make application for them the same as everybody 
else. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever seen any State police in the club? 

Mr. Kastel. Sometimes, for an inquiry. 

Mr. Rice. For an inquiry ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes; about an accident, or something of that kind. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you maintain any rooms at the Roosevelt 
Hotel? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How many? 

Mr. Kastel. Two rooms. 

Mr. Rice. Two rooms. 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. On a year-around basis? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. In your name? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What is the telephone number there ? 

Mr, Kastel. The hotel telephone? 

Mr. Rice. No ; your private line. 

Mr. Kastel. I don't care to give that private line number out. 
Why should I ? 

Mr. Rice. So you have a private line there, do you not ? 

Mr. Kastel, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, who pays for the rooms? Do you pay for 
them personally or is it charged to the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. Part of it is charged to the club for expenses. 

Mr. Rice, For expenses for what ? 



158 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. ELiVSTEL. For expenses for the club ; as an office. 

Mr. Rice. In connection with what? As an office ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is this an office ? 

Mr. Kastel. It is an office. I don't sleep there. 

Mr. Rice. Are there any beds there ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Occasionally do guests stay there? 

Mr. Kastel. What do you mean by "guests" ? 

Mr. Rice. Well, your guests. Do you occasionally invite guests 
to stay in the rooms? 

Mr. Kastel. Sometimes; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Did Frank Costello ever stay there ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Jack Lansky ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Joe Adonis. 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Joe xldonis ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Has he been to New Orleans ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge in quite a long time. 

Mr. Rice. When was the last time he was down here ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. It was a long time ago. 

Mr. Rice. What is his right name ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it Joe Doto ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. Was he at the Beverly Club when he was down ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about Jerry Cateno ? Do you know him ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where is he from ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. Was he at the Beverly Club ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he was ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Did he stay at the Roosevelt when he was there ? 

Mr. Kastel. I think so. 

Mr. Rice. Did he stay in your room ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir ; not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Now, is it not true considerable sums of money have been, 
paid and sent to Costello in New York by the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. Any money that has been paid to Mr. Costello is on 
the books of the company. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now, in 1944, Costello left a package with 
$27,000 in a taxicab in New York. He said that fifteen thousand of 
this money was sent to him by Phil Kastel in Louisiana. What was 
that money sent to him for? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't tell you now. I can't remember. 

Mr. Rice. This was in cash money. Do voii send cash money to 
New York? 

Mr. Kastel. I didn't say that I did send it. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you said you sent considerable sums of 
money 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 159 

Mr. Kastel. Whatever is on the record of the books. If it is shown 
on the books that is what it is. 

Mr. EicE. I want to ask yon this : Have yon ever sent casli money 
toCostello? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
tlie question may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. KicE. If Costello said that you did would he be wrong? 

Mr. Kastel. I am not accountable for what Costello says, 

Mr. Rice. Do you recall sending money in any other form than 
checks to Costello in New^ York? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Does Costello retain money at the club that belongs to 
him I Cash money. 

Mr. Kasit.l. I couldn't ansAver that question. I refuse to answer 
that question. 

The Chaikman. Well, Mr. Kastel, the thing about it is that Costello 
said that out of this twenty-five thousand, $15,450 of the money was 
money sent to him by his Louisiana partner, Phil Kastel, and ap- 
parently the idea being that it belonged to you and that he could get 
it back on that basis. 

Mr. O'CoxNOR. Did he say that in a court of record or is that in a 
newspaper account ? 

The Chairman. No; that was in a court of record. Did he receive 
some money that belonged to you? That is what we want to know, 

Mr. Kastel. It is jDossible that there might have been a difference. 
I might have owed him some money at that time. 

The Chairman. $15,000? 

Mr. Kastel. It is possible. 

The Chairman. All right, then. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Tony Logan ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who is he? 

Mr. Kastel. IVliat do you mean, wdio is he? 

Mr. Rice. Who is he ? Where is he from ? 

Mr. Kastel. He is an individual. 

Mr. Rice. Where is he from? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he is from Chicago. 

Mr. Rice. He's from Chicago? 

Mr. Kastel. Uh-huh. 

Mr. Rice. Wliere does he live? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. How do you get in touch with him ? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't tell you where he lives. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you have any business with Tony Logan? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had any business with Tony Logan? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What business? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer on the grounds that the question 
may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that you participate in a football pool with 
Tony Logan? 

Mr. Kasiel. I i-efuse to answer on the same grounds. 



160 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that the football pool yon engage in with 
Tony Logan is one of the largest in the country ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer on the same grounds. 

Mr. EicE. Where did you do business with Tony Logan? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Rice. Has he been to New Orleans? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir. have vou ever telephoned to Logan at Memphis, 
Tenn.? 

Mr. O'Connor. What about ? 

Mr. Kastel. Telephoned to Logan about that? 

Mr. Rice. That's what I would like to know. 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know how to locate him on the telephone? 

Mr. Kastel. Not now; no. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever talked to him o]i the telei)hone? 

Mr. Kastel. Possible. 

Mr. Rice. When w^as the last time you talked to him ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't sav. 

Mr. Rice. Where was he when you last talked to hiui ? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't tell you. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have any part of the business with him in 
Memphis ? 

Mr. Kastel. In Memphis, Tenn.? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. I never had any business in Memphis, Tenn. 

Mr. Rice. Did Tony Logan have business there ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't answer for Tony Logan. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever talk to him on the telephone at Memphis? 

Mr. Kastel. It's possible. 

Mr. Rice. Now. sir. if it is ]X)ssible, what did you talk about? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now, do you know Allen Smiley? 

The Chairman. Just a second. How long ago has it been since you 
had any business with Mr. Logan ? 

Mr. Kastel. Oh, it must be a year ago. Senator. 

The Chairman. What was the name of the company? Or was it a 
corporation ? 

Mr. Kastel. No company. I might have made some wagers with 
him on football, the same as you or anybody else might have in some 
other way. 

The Chairman. I mean, it wasn't anything with any company? 

Mr. Kastel. No company ; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Was he in the football pool business ? Was that his 
business ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he handled — he was a manipulator of foot- 
ball, and he w^as an authority on football. 

The Chairman. Let's go on. 

Mr. Rice. Would you call him a betting commissioner? 

Mr. Kastel. Possible. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Allen Smiley ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not very well. 

Mr. Rice. When did you last see Allen Smiley ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 161 

Mr. Kastel. I saw him in Xe\v Orleans, possibly about a year ago: 
a year and a half ago. 

Mr. Rice. Where is he from? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. EicE. Is he a friend of Bugsy Siegel? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. The late Bugsy Siegel, that is. 

Wasn't Smiley in the room with Bngsy Siegel when he was murdered 
in Los Angeles? 

Mr. Kastel. I wasn't there. HoAvdoIknow? 

Mr. Rice. Did Smiley ever tell you about that ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Has Smilej^ ever been in the club? 

Mr. Kastel. I was never that intimate with him. 

Mr. Rice. Was Smiley ever in the Beverly Club? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you see Smiley ? 

Mr. Kastel. At the Roosevelt. 

Mr. Rice. What is that ? 

Mr. Kastel. At the Roosevelt. 

Mr. Rice. Did Smiley stay in your rooms at the Roosevelt ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he did, for a couple of days. He w^asn't ablf 
to get a room. 

Mr. Rice. Did Frank Costello ever stay there? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you quite certain that Frank Costello never stayed 
in your rooms at the Roosevelt Hotel ? Think hard. 

Mr. Kastel. What do you mean by "stay there?" Did he sleep 
there ? 

Mr. Rice. Sleep there; yes. 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir; not to my knowledge. He always got rooms 
of his own, and he registered in the hotel when he w^as in town. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Did he use j^our rooms when he was 

Mr. Kastel. It is quite possible. During the day he might have 
used the rooms to play cards in and make a few telephone calls. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, was it possible that he ever stayed at the Roose- 
velt in your rooms and did not register in another room? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible? 

Mr. Kastel. Anything is possible. 

Mr. Rice. Do you want to say that he never did stay in your rooms ? 

Mr. O'Connor. He wanted to say what he answered you. Counsel: 
not to his knowledge. That's the answer he made. 

Mr. Rice. Costello never stayed in your rooms overnight? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

Now, then, have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, before we get off that : 

If he stayed in your room would you know about it, Mr. Kastel ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, I think I should tell you that the record 
shows that he has stayed, or at least he used your apartment on two 



162 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

occasions at least, and tliat the bills were. charged to your room, 1252, 
to your account. 

Mr. Kastel. For incidentals. 

The Chairman. That is according to the Roosevelt Hotel. 

Mr. Kastel. For incidentals. It is possible that he stayed there 
during the day, Senator, and used the telephone and possibly had 
lunch, or something of that kind. 

The Chairman. Well, from March 2 to March 11, 1946, for 
instance 

Mr. Kastel. Well, I couldn't go back that far. 

The Chairman. And at other times, his bills were charged to your 
room. 

Mr. Kastel. There is no point in saying he didn't stay there. 

The Chairman. We just wanted to get the facts about it. 

Mr. Kastel. Yes ; but I don't want 

The Chairman. Now, before you leave Allen Smiley, this fellow 
Smiley — as a matter of fact, the records show that he stayed in your 
room, or apartment, 44 times, in the hotel, from 1936 up to 1950. 

Mr. Kastel. From 1936 to 1950. 

The Chairman. Yes. Visiting from 3 days to 91 days. 

Mr. Kastel, To what ? 

The Chairman. Ninety-one days. 

Mr. Kastel. Oh, no ; that is impossible. 

The Chairman. That is according to the records at the Roosevelt 
Hotel. 

Mr. Kastel. That is impossible. 

The Chairman. Allen Smiley — — 

Mr. Kastel. You are talking about Smiley, aren't you ? 

The Chairman. No ; I was talking about Costello. 

Mr. Kastel. Oh, oh, oh. Well, Costello would come here and he 
would use the room during the day and, as I say, play cards, likely 
have lunch, but he wouldn't sleep there. 

The Chairman. Well, it shows he was registered in your room 44 
times for a total of 466 days, in the last 14 years. 

Of course, it isn't any crime, but we just wondered why you said 
lie never stayed there. 

Mr. Kastel. No ; I can't remember it. Senator. Every time he came 
here he came with Mrs. Costello and they would get a room or a suite 
of their own. 

The Chairman. That is according to the records of the Roosevelt. 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. What is your room number there ? 

Mr. Kastel, 562. They changed the rooms recently. 

The Chairman. It was 1252 ? 

Mr. IvASTEL. Oh, that's a long time ago. 

The Chairman. Now, before you leave Allen Smiley : Allen Smiley 
comes from Los Angeles, doesn't he ? 

Mr. Kastel, Only from what I see or read in the newspapers. 

The Chairman, Did you have any business dealings with him? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir ; none whatever at any time. 

The Chairman. Did he do some work for the Beverly Club ? 

Mr. Kastel, No, sir. 

The Chairman, Wasn't he on the payroll at one time ? 

Mr, Kastel. No, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 163 

The Chairman. Is he the fellow who is a "friend of Mickey Colien's 
out there ? 

Mr. Kastfx. I couldn't say; I don't know tlie man, Cohen. 

The Chairman. Do you know Mickey Cohen ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You never saw^ him? 

Mr. Kastel. I never saw him in my life. 

The Chairman. All right. Go ahead. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Sam INIassio? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where is he located? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he's located in Galveston. 

Mr. Rice. What is his business? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe the man is in the restaurant business : amuse- 
ment business. 

Mr, Rice. Have you done any business with Massio? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did you say that you had been arrested? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. When was that? 

Mr. Kastel. Oh, a long time ago. 

]Mr. Rice. When was the first time ? 

Mr. Kastel. Twenty-some-odd years ago. 

Mr. Rice. Twenty-some-odd years ago. Were you arrested in Feb- 
ruary 1918, in New York City, for extortion? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. What? Are you trying to embarrass some- 
body here? 

Mr. Rice. I am asking you a question, sir. 

Mr. Kastel. I am giving you an answ^er. If you look at your record 
you will find that I was acquitted and I sued and I was awarded 
damages. 

Mr. Rice. I asked you if j^ou were arrested. 

Mr. Kastel, I won't answer that question. 

Mr. O'Connor. In all fairness to him, if that record shows he was 
awarded damages that question should not be asked this man. I think 
that is an outrageous proposition to present here. 

The Chairman. Well, just for your 

Mr. O'Connor. If he was awarded damages by a court of competent 
jurisdiction that question is an outrageous question to ask. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. O'Connor, don't get excited. The record 
does not show he was awarded any damages. It shows that he was 

Mr, O'Connor. But the record, as far as your investigators had 
other records to furnish. Senator, and look into, find out the true facts 
into it 

The Chairman. He has a perfect right, and we are giving him 
plenty of opportunity to make any explanation about it he wants to. 
The record shows that in February 1918, in New York City 

Mr. O'Connor. He intends to humiliate and degrade people. I 
hope you are never in that position, Senator. 

The Chairman. I was trying to tell you what the record says, sir: 
"Extortion" and "dismissed by Judge Mulqueen, general sessions 
court." 

Mr. Kastel. I sued for false arrest and imprisonment, and was 
awarded damages. 



164 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. It does not say anything about it. 

Mr. Kastel. I can't help what it doesn't say. 

The Chairman. I am glad yon have made that explanation. 

Mr. Rice. How mnch damages did you recover? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't recall. I gave it to charity at the time. I 
wouldn't use the money. 

Mr. Rice. Was it more than $10? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Was it more than a hundred ? 

Mr. Kastel. Oh, well ; let's not go into that. 

The Chairman. All right. Let's go on. 

Mr. Kastel. You are trying to persecute people instead of letting 
me help the committee. 

Mr. Rice. When was the next time you were arrested? 

Mr. Kastel. You have the record there. 

Mr. Rice. Were you arrested on December 6, 1926, at Fonda, N. Y., 
for grand larceny ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. I was tried three times in Federal court and 
until my dying dav I will sa}^ I was not guilty; that it was a miscar- 
riage of justice. In other words, I believe I was framed to this 
j)resent day. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, were you sentenced in connection with that 
charge ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You received 314 to 8 years in the penitentiary. 

Mr. Kastel. I took the case to the United States Supreme Court. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Were you arrested again in February of 
1930 for grand larceny? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. That's out of the same case ; it is all the same 
case. 

The Chairman. The only other one was in 1928, on using the mails 
to defraud. 

Mr. Kastel. That is out of the same case, Senator. 

The Chairman. Was that on the same one ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you serve time in Atlanta on that? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. I paid my penalty, and there is no reason 
for you to try to embarrass me. 

Mr. Rice. How much time did you spend in Atlanta ? 

Mr. IvASTEL. You have the record there. 

Mr. Rice. Don't you recall ? 

Mr. O'Connor. Do you think that that is pertinent to this investi- 
gation. Senator ? 

The Chairman. Well, we have asked about it, and he has testified. 
The record we have here shows that 3 years, but I had understood it 
was less than that. So I don't know. That is the reason we were 
asking. 

All right. Anything else? 
I just wanted to ask one or two questions. 

Have you been raided out at the club, out at the Beverly Club, at 
any time ? 

Mr. Kastel. Raided ? Not to my knowledge ; no, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 165 

The CiiAimiAN. Now tell us how this AVhitely's scotch-whisky deal 
worked and how long- was that contract in operation. You formed 
the Atlas Distributing- 

Mr. Kastel. xVlliance Distributors. 

The Chairman. I mean Alliance Distributors, and as I understand 
the note was signed by Mr. Haim and it was payable to Mr. Helis. 
Is that correct? 

Mr. Kastel. That is right. 

The Chairman. $325,000, and endorsed by you and Mr. Costello, 
and for that you got the exclusive right, or some right, in connection 
Avith King's Ransom and House of Lords. 

Mr. Kastel. That is right. 

The Chairman, Was that for the whole United States? 

Mr. Kastel. For the whole United States; yes, sir. 

The Chair^man. And then you mean you got a percentage, a small 
Ijercentage, for selling? 

]\Ir. KLvstel. I got a small percentage per case, which amounted to, 
in English monej^s, it would be 6 pence per case, which amounted to 
50 to 60 cents per case. It ran into anywhere from thirty-five to fifty 
thousand dollars a year. 

The Chairman. The note was put up as collateral just to have work- 
ing capital. Is that right? 

^Ir. Kastel. At that time I believe ; yes. 

The Chairman. It ran into how much a year ? 

Mr. Kastel. Thirty-five to fifty thousand dollars a year. 

The Chairmx^iN. How many years did you and Mr. Costello have 
that? 

Mr. Kastel. Mr. Costello had nothing to do with that. 

The Chairman. He just sigiiecl the note to help you out? 

Mr. Kastel. He just signed the note as a coendorser to help me 
out ; yes, sir. 

The CiiAiKr-iAN. He had no part in the business? 

Mr. Kastel. No part of that money at all. 

The Chairman. You were the entire Alliance Distributors? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir; I was not. I was not. I had nothing to do 
with the Alliance Distributors. I was interested in the parent com- 
pany in Europe. 

The Chairman. What was that company? 

Mr. Kastel. The AVilliam Whitely Co. 

The Chairman. I see. Who were the Alliance Distributors? 

]Mr. Kastel. Irving Haim, and — I don't know ; some of his other 
relatives, I believe. 

The Chairman. Costello? 

Mr. Kastel. Costello was never interested in the Alliance Dis- 
tributors. 

The Chairman. AVhich one was Mr. Helis interested in? 

Mr. Kastel. He wasn't interested in either one of them while I was 
there. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you go to the club every night, substantially ? 

Mr. Kastel. Substantially ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. And are you in direct charge there? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

INIr. Rice. All right, sir. At the end of the day who makes up — 
who checks np on what money is taken in? 



166 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr, Kastel. At the end of tlie day ? The cashier. 

Mr. Rice. What is his name ? 

Mr. Kastel. Tanico. 

Mr. Rice. Michael Tanico ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, does he take care of the receipts from the res- 
taurant and the casino? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. He is in charge of botli ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. I am not talking about the casino. You 
asked me about the cashier. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Who is in charge of the casino? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground the ques- 
tion may tend to incriminate me. 

The ChairMxVN. Well, let's see. Does one man look after every- 
thing out there, whatever it may be, as far as the cashier part is con- 
cerned ? 

Mr. Kastel. There may be some other people ; sometimes Mr. Mur- 
phy comes in or Mr. Broussard, and may help out. 

Mr. Rice. Now, are you there when the receipts are counted up? 

Mr. Kastel. Not always. 

Mr. Rice. Are you there occasionally ? 

Mr. Kastel. Occasionally. 

Mr. Rice. Now, who else is permitted there when you settle up? 
You and Mr. Murphy and Tanico? 

Mr. Kastel. Mr. Murphy isn't there often at all. 

Mr. Rice. Broussard? 

Mr. Kastel. Not very often. 

Mr. Rice. Anyone else ? 

Mr. Kastel. There are other people there. 

Mr. Rice. For instance? ^Yliat other people? 

Mr. Kastel. Well, there is a checker for the restaurant and he 
checks up. 

Mr. Rice. What is his name? What's the checker for the restau- 
rant's name ? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't think of his last name. It's a short name. 

Mr. Rice. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Kastel. Saul. S-a-u-1. 

Mr. Rice. Saul ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Who else is there? 

Mr. Kastel. Another checker is there : a boy by the name of Roberti. 

Mr. Rice. Roberti ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What does he check? 

Mr. Kastel. He checks the cash. 

Mr. Rice. What department ? 

Mr. Kastel. The restaurant. 

Mr. Rice. Both Saul and Roberti check the cash in the restaurant? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Anyone else? 

Mr. Kastel. Cashier of the cocktail lounge. 

Mr. Rice. What is his name ? 

Mr. Kastel. Higgins. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 167 

Mr. EicK. Anyone else"? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe that Mould cover it. 

Mr. Rice. Xow then, are these receipts reduced to a sheet? Do you 

make a daily run-doAvn sheet or daily 

Mr. Kastel. They make a daily record and make a deposit in the 
bank every ni<iht. 

]\Ir. Rice. Have you turned those records over to us ? 
Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is every cent that is taken in reflected in those sheets? 
]\[r. Kastel. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Rice. In the whole club? 
Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, in comiection with the payment of employees, are 
any employees paid anything over their salary, for entertainment or 
any other thing? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All of the paj-ments made to employees are shown in 
your salary lists ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. There are no extra funds available for entertainment of 
customers ? 

Mr. Kastel. Whatever money is spent for entertainment of cus- 
tomers'goes on the books, and records. 

Mr. Rice. It goes on the books. What is that called, on the books ? 
Mr. Kastel. I imagine it is called entertainment or advertising. 
Mr. Rice. What would be some of those things that would be — 
some of the reasons for spending ? Buying them cigarettes ? Do you 
furnish cigarettes to your patrons? 
Mr, Kastel. Not to my knowledge. 
Mr. Rice. Do you furnish drinks ? 

Mr. Kasitsl. Occasionally we might furnish some drinks to some 
people in the dining room, or in the cocktail lounge, 

Mr. Rice. Those are charged on the books as what? Expenses? 
Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who are some of the employees who are permitted tcK 
authorize the giving of drinks to patrons, and charge them against 
expense ? 

Mr. Kastel. Mr. Brown, 

Mr, Rice. Mr. Brown ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What is his name ? 

Mr. Kastel. Joe Brown, 

Mr. Rice. What is his right name? 

Mr. Kastel. That is his right name. (Aside) This is a suspiciou& 

Mr, Rice. Now then, other than Frank Costello, do you have any 
other employees in the good-will department? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Frank Costello is the "member sole" of the good-will 
department? 

Mr. Kastel. And looks after entertainment. 

Mr. Rice. Entertainment. What do you mean ? 

Mr. Kastel. He will check entertainment and see certain acts in- 
New York that we may like and he may call me and say that such and 



168 ^ ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMJMERCE 

such an act is so and so. I may say the price rs too high, or something 
of that kind, and he will try to negotiate with them and call me and 
say "I think I can get that particular act for a certain figure." And 
we will either close it or not close it. 

Mr. Rice. He is authorized to close it out and send them down? 

Mr. Kastel. He doesn't authorize it. We discuss it and see whether 
it fits that particular time of the year or whether it fits the particu- 
lar room 

Mr. HicE. And when he reaches an agreement he closes the deal 
with the entertainment 

Mr. Kastel. Xo, he will tell me and I will close it. I will call the 
agent; they will send up a contract and we will sign it. 

Mr. Rice. If there is a difference of opinion as to whether the act 
should be put on or not, whose opinion controls ? 

Mr. Kastel, Well, it isn't that technical. Sometimes I will be- 
lieve that they will take my word in preference to his own because 
I happen to be right on the ground. 

Mr. Rice. Is he an officer ? 

Mr. Kastel. You will have to look at the record. 

Mr. Rice. Don't you know ? 

Mr. Kastel. Look at the record, please. 

Mr. Rice. Don't you know ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. Do you know whether or not Costello is an officer ?^ 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. On what ground ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know whether it will incriminate me or not, 
but I will have to look at the record to refresh my memory. 

The Chairman. We don't have the record here. 

Mr. Kastel. Well, I haven't got it. You asked me to bring in the 
book tomorrow. We talked about that. I will bring it in. The min- 
ute book ; that is what you want. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. I believe we noticed some payments to the Louisiana 
Music Co. ; some checks drawn to the Louisiana Music Co. What 
business do you have with that company ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is a company that supplies wired music. When 
the orchestra is not working they turn a switch and the wired music 
comes on. 

Mr. Rice. I see. With whom do 3^011 do business in connection with 
that company? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe it is done direct with one of the heads of the 
company. It is a contract that has been in force. 

The Chairman. I think we have had enough. 

Will you get that minute book and some other information we 
wanted ? 

Mr. Kastel. Wliat else do you want ? 

Mr. Rice. The names of the officers and directors. 

The Chairman. Will you get all of that in ? 

Mr. Kastel. ^Vliat time do you want that here. Senator? 

The Chairman. Let's say after the noon recess tomorrow. Also, 
you are going to find out what this check is about, for $3,400. 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 169 

The Chairman. We will have a 5-minute recess. 
(Witness Kastel excused.) 
( Short recess. ) 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN J. GROSCH, CRIMINAL SHERIFF, ORLEANS 
PARISH, NEV/ ORLEANS, LA.. ACCOMPANIED BY RICHARD A. 
DOWLING, ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. You do solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this conmiittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God i 

Mr. Grosch. I do. 

The Chairman. What is your address, Mr. Grosch? 

JNIr. Grosch. 6168 Canal Boulevard, New Orleans. 

The Chairman. In the city limits ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And Richard Dowling, attorney at law", Maison 
Blanche Building. 

]Mr. Rice. Mr. Grosch, you are appearing here in response to a 
subpena ? 

]\Ir. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you turn over certain records? 

Mr. Grosch. I did, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. You haven't been sworn, have you? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You solemnly swear to testify to the truth, the 
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Grosch. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Grosch, what is your job ? 

Mr. Grosch. I am criminal sheriff of the parish of Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. And how long have you been such ? 

Mr. Grosch. Since May 6, 1946. 

Mr. Rice. And what did you do before that? 

Mr. Grosch. I was chief of detectives for 16 years prior to that, 
and 9 years a patrolman and detective with the New Orleans Police 
Department. 

JMr. Rice. What did you do before that ? 

Mr. Grosch. Before that I w^as in the Navy. I sailed on the Great 
Lakes. I worked in the cotton mills. 

Mr, Rice. When you say you were on the police department, tliat is 
the New Orleans Police Department? 

Mr. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Until 1946; is that correct? 

Mr. Grosch. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what type of automobile do you own? 

Mr. Grosch. Personally, I own none. 

Mr. Rice. What type of automobile do you drive ? 

Mr. Grosch. A Cadillac. 

Mr. Rice. Whose name is that in? 

Mr. Grosch. That Cadillac is in the name of the criminal sheriff's 
office of the parish of Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. And where was that obtained from ? 

Mr. Grosch. New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. And do you own any other automobiles? 



170 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Grosch. Not personally ; no. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive an automobile from Carlos Mar- 
cello? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive one from Louis Battalamente? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Or any member of your family ? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir ; they did not. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you know G. A. Brennan ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir; I do. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive any money from him ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Lehman Jacobs ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir ; I do. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive anything from Lehman Jacobs ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive a diamond from him ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did j^ou ever buy a diamond from him ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Morris Reiner ? 

Mr. Grosch. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Did he ever give you a diamond ? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir ; he did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever buy a diamond from him ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. Yes, I bought a cheap diamond pin from 
him, I believe, some years ago. 

Mr. Rice. Now", sir, at the time you bought your house — Do you 
mean a house on Canal ? 

Mr. Grosch. On Canal Boulevard. 

Mr. Rice. Any mortgage on that? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Was there ever a mortgage on that? . ' 

Mr. Grosch. I think there was. 

Mr. Rice. In what amount? 

Mr. Grosch. Oh, four or five thousand. 

Mr. Rice. Who held the mortgage? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Was it Monte Hart? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, it was Monte Hart. 

Mr. Rice. He died? 

Mr. Grosch. He died. He killed himself. 

JVIr. Rice. Didn't the mortgage then go to George Brennan ? 

Mr. Grosch. No ; I think it was another mortgage for $4,000. 

Mr. Rice. Wiat was that on? 

Mr. Grosch. Oh, that was on the same house. I cleared the mort- 
gage out with Monte Hart. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you cleared it up when Monte Hart had it? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now when you came on the police department, in the 
1920\s, what was your grade there? 

Mr. Grosch. I was supernumerary patrolman. 

Mr. Rice. Patrolman. Did you buv a house on Cortez and Roman 
in 1925? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 171 

]\lr. Grosch. No, sir; I did not. 

Mr. Rice. When did you buy it? 

JSIr. Grosch. I built a home througli the Homestead in 1929. 

Mr. Rice. 1929. Was there a mortgage on that? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, I bought it through the Homestead. There had 
to be a mortgage. 

Mr. Rice. AVhere ATere payments made on that mortgage ? 

Mr. Grosch. To the Homestead. 

Mr. Rice. Now, Avhat did you put down on that house? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember. I cannot remember that long back. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true it was a $7,500 mortgage on the house ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. That in 1926 yon made two $1,000 curtailments in 
February? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible that you did ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember. I am not going to say anything 
is possible or impossible if I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. In 1926 did you have any income in addition to your 
salary as a police officer? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. If the records show that you made two $1,000 curtail- 
ments, is that possible. 

Mr. DowLiNG. Ask him what he means. 

JNIr. Grosch. What do you mean by curtailments? 

Mv. Rice. Curtailments on your $7,500 mortgage. 

Mr. Grosch. What do you mean by that ? 

]Mr. Rice. Payments. 

Mr. Grosch. What is the payments you refer to ? 

Mr. Rice. Didn't the building and loan hold the mortgage? 

Mr. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr Rice How frequently did you make your payments on your 
house ? 

]Mr. Grosch. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Weren't the payments $100 a month ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember, but you paid in percentage of what 
the mortgage was. 

Mr. Rice. Was it the Suburban Building & Loan that held that? 

Mr. Grosch. I think so. 

]Mr. Rice. Now, then, on November 16, 1925, the mortgage was in 
the amount of $7,500 at the Suburban Building & Loan Association. 
On February 3, 1926. you paid $1,000. On February 24, 1926, you paid 
$1,000. Do you know where that money came from? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes. I had earned it if I paid it. 

Mr. Rice. Did you earn it as a member of the police department? 

]^Ir. Grosch. Not necessaril3^ 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. What other income did you have? 

Mr. Grosch. I told you I worked. I went to work when I was 11 
years of age. I worked on the Great Lakes as a sailor, not as a United 
States service sailor, but I worked on the ore boats up there. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now, then, is it your position this was 
money you had saved when you worked on the Lakes ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember. How am I going to remember 30 
years back, 34 years back ? 

68958— 51— pt. 8 12 



172 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EiCE. Well, when you became a patrolman did you liave a 
savings then? 

Mr. Grosch. I had money, yes. 

Mr. Rice. How much money did you have ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Approximately how much ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know approximately. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. More than $10,000? 

Mr. Grosch, I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you want to stand on the statement you don't 
know where the two $1,000 payments of February 192G came from ? 

Mr. Grosch. Repeat that question, please. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know where your two $1,000 payments on Feb- 
ruary 1926 came from? 

Mr. Grosch. No; not at this time. 

Mr. Rice. Not at this time ? 

Mr. Grosch. No; not at this time, but if you people would have 
asked me to bring in my returns from 1913 I would have gladly 
gone 

Mr. Rice. I want to ask you now- 



Mr. Grosch. Let me finish, please. Don't gag me. 

Mr. DowLiNG. We ask that he be allowed to answer the question and 
not to gag him. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Dowling, nobody is going to try to 
gag you. 

Mr. Dowling. I think counsel is. 

The Chairman. I don't think he is. 

All right, now. You make any statement you want to. 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. If you would have asked me to get my re- 
turns to freshen my memory as to the income tax I paid from the first 
day I began paying them, I would have gladly gone to the income-tax 
people and I would have asked for a copy of my income from the day 
that I first started paying income. But you did not ask that. You 
asked me to bring in my records beginning with the year 19-14. 

Mr. Dowling. Let's see the subpena. 

Mr. Grosch. However, if it will please you gentlemen I will go in 
the next couple of days to the income-tax people and request a copy 
of my income and I will give it to you here, or I will mail it to you at 
whatever address you may give me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you know George Reyer? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have a conversation with George Reyer at the 
time you made the two $1,000 payments and he told you that it did 
not look right for a policeman to be making those payments, and to 
cut it down to a smaller payment ? 

Mr. Grosch. No ; that is not true. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, have you ever had a safe or safety deposit box in 
your home ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. You never had a safety deposit box in your home ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have a safe ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 173 

!Mr. Rice, Did you ever buy a safe from Rolland's'^ 

Mr. Groscii. I did not. 

]\Ir. DowLixG. Let me see that subpena a minute. 

!Mr. Groscii. You have it. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had a l)ank account in the name of John 
Joseph ? 

Mr, Grosch. I remember having a bank box in the name of John 
Joseph. 

Mr. Rice, Now, you had a bank box in the name of John Joseph? 

Mr. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Where was that? 

Mr. Grosch. At one of the banks. I don't remember which bank it 
was, 

Mr, Rice, In New Orleans? 

Mr, Grosch. In New Orleans. 

Mv. Rice. Which bank was that ? 

Mr. Groscii. I don't know whether it Avas the Canal, the American, 
or the Whitney. I don't remember, 

Mr. Rice. Who is John Joseph? 

Mr. Grosch. That is me. 

Mr. Rice. Why did you use that name ? 

Mr. Grosch. Because it is my name, John Joseph Grosch. 

]\Ir. Rice. Why didn't you use John Joseph Grosch? 

Mr. Grosch. For my own reasons. 

Mr. Rice. For what reasons? 

Mr. (iROSCii. I could have had domestic trouble, for one reason. 

Mr. Rice. I see. And would that help or hinder your domestic 
trouble? 

Mr, Grosch. Huh? 

Mr. Rice, How would that help your domestic trouble ? 

Mr. Grosch. Well, I mean that is such a foolish question for you to 
ask, how it would help me. It would help me to protect myself, which 
did develop into domestic affairs for which I was divorced in 1940. 

Mr. Rice. Would it be a fair statement to say, then, you felt you 
were in a position where you had some things to conceal? 

Mr. Grosch. No, I didn't do it for the purpose of concealment from 
anyone, but my own domestic affairs. 

iVIr. Rice. IS^ow, sir, did you have any accounts or boxes in the name 
of John Jose^Dh in any other cities? 

Mr. Groscii, I did not, 

Mr. Rice. Specifically, Mobile, Ala. ? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir; I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Do you still have any account or box in the name of John 
Joseph ? 

Mr. Groscii. I do not, 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, sir, have you ever had a safety deposit box or 
safe in any of the homes that you lived in ? 

Mr. Grosch, I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Specifically, a box in the wall of your house ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not, 

Mr. Rice. Quite sure about that? 

Mr. Grosch. I am quite sure. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did you ever have any interest in the L. & B. 
Amusement Co. ? 



174 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Groscii. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive any money from the L. & B. Amuse- 
ment Co. ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Have yoii ever lieard of the L. & B. Amusement Co. ? 

Mr. Grosch. Not ^o my recollection. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Louis Battalamente ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive any money from Battalamente ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. What business is Battalamente in? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. When you knew him what business was he in ? 

Mr. Grosch. To my own knowledge, I don't know that. 

Mr. Rice. What did you know him to be ? 

Mr. Grosch. I just knew him to be a man. That is all I knew 
about him. 

Mr. Rice. What business was he in ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Was he a workingman ? 

Mr. Grosch. I guess he was. 

Mr. Rice. What did he work at ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know. I said I guess he was. 

Mr. Rice. Where would you see Battalamente ? 

Mr. Grosch. I would see him on the streets occasionally. I saw 
him on Poydras Street occasionally. 

Mr. Rice. Would it suprise you to know that he was in the juke- 
box and slot-machine business? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes; now that you recall it to my memory, I do recall 
that he was in the music-box business, I believe, in Jefferson Parish. 

Mr. Rice. Jefferson Parish? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir ; do j^ou know Lawrence Copeland ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes; I know Lawrence. 

Mr. Rice. What business is Copeland in ? 

Mr. Grosch. I think he was in pinball or music box. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have any business transactions with Cope- 
land? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not, 

Mr. Rice. Was he in the slot-machine business? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember or recall that he was ever in the slot- 
machine business. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive any money from him ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have any interest in his business? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did Copeland have any machines in the city ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know. I didn't worry about gambling too 
much. I caught thieves. 

Mr. Rice. Did Copeland ever come to your house? 

Mr. Grosch. He did not. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that ? 

Mr. Grosch. I am positive. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 175 

IVIr. EicE. Do you know Duke Shaffer ? 

Mr. Groscii. Yes, sir ; I do. 

Mr. Rice. What business was he in? 

Mr. Groscii. He was a public-relations man. 

Mr. Rice. Did he ever have any punchboards ? 

Mr. Groscii. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. What is Shaffer doing now ? 

Mr. Groscii. Poor fellow, he is dead. 

Mr. Rice. Did he ever come to your house? 

Mr. Groscii. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have any interest in his business ? 

Mr. Groscii. 1 did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did he ever pay you anv monev? 

Mr. Groscii. What is that? 

Mr. Rice. Did he ever pay you any Inoney? 

Mr. Groscii. He did not. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, have you ever heard of the Louisiana Mint Co. ? 

Mr. Groscii. I've heard of a mint company. I don't know whether 
it was Louisiana Mint or not. 

Mr. Rice. What was the mint company you heard of? 

Mr. Groscii. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. What business was it in? 

Mr. Groscii. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. You never heard of Louisiana Mint Co. ? 

Mr. Groscii. I guess I did, but I can't recall just what it was. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't it in the slot-machine business? 

Mr. Grosch. I remembei- their having mint slot machines here, but 

T don't recall the name, whether it was the Louisiana Mint or 

Mr. Rice. Did vou ever receive any monev from the Louisiana 
Mint Co.? 

Mr. Groscit. I did not. 
Mr. Rice. Who is John Douglas ? 

Mr. Grosch. John Douglas is a man that lives on Iberville Street 
that has the White Front Liquor Store. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now, where is he from ? 
Mr. Groscii. He is from Tarpon Springs, Fla. 
, Mr. Rice. Does he have any criminal record ? 
Mr. Grosch. Not to my knowledge. 
Mr. Rice. Isn't he from New York ? 

Mr. Groscii. No, sir; he is from Tarpon Springs, Fla.. biecause 
I went there with him and stayed there about 2 weeks, I know his 
whole family is there. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't he an associate of Frank Costello? 
Mr. Grosch. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Was he ever in any trouble in Tarpon Springs? 
Mr. Grosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Why did he leave Tarpon Springs? 

Mr. Grosch. He didn't leave Tarpon Springs. I went there on a 
vacation with him, 

Mr. Rice. I say, Wliy did he leave? He is over here now, isn't 
he? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know why he left Tarpon Springs. He left 
Tarpon Springs, I believe, when he was a boy. 
Mr. Rice. He is over here now ? 



176 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Grosch. Yes. sir ; lie has been here for years. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, does he go to Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you travel with him ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you stay up there? 

Mr. Grosch. Oh. sometimes in Jack Tar's; sometimes I rent a 
house up there. I go up there twice a year, sometimes with him and 
sometimes without him. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, when you are up at Hot Springs, were you 
eA'er up there at the times Frank Costello was there ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Frank Costello? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Meet and talk Avitli him up there? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Have you talked with him? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes; I have talked with him. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know William Moretti? 

Mr. Grosch. No: I do not. 

Mr. Rice. How about Artie Samish ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know him. I know of him. I was in Frisco 
with him at the United Nations, when they organized. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever meet him at Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. How about Charlie Fischetti? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not know him. 

Mr. Rice. You never met him in Hot Springs ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. How about "Longie" Zwillman ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know him, 

Mr. Rice. How about Nig Rosen? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know him. 

Mr. Rice. How about Joe Massei ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know him. 

Mr. Rice. How about Joe Massey ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know him. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest in a club operated by Bill 
La tour? 

Mu. Grosch. A^Hio is Bill Latour ? 

Mr. Rice. So you know Bill Latour? 

Mr. Grosch. I do not. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Percy Abbott? 

]Mr. Grosch. Yes ; I know Percy Abbott. 

Mr. Rice. Do von have anv interest in any enterprise of Percy 
Abbott ? 

Mr. Grosch. I do not. 

Mr. Rice, Wliat does Percy Abbott do ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Wliere do you see him ? 

Mr. Grosch. I see him back at the jail. He comes in and signs bonds. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in ? 

]Mr. Grosch. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive any money from Perc}" Abbott? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 177 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know John Triiitt? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes ; I do. 

]Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive an automobile from Jolm Truitt? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive anything from Truitt ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. AVliat business is he in ? 

Mr. Grosch. He is in the automobile business. 

]Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Kellv, that used to 
run the Grand Club? 

Mr. Grosch. No ; I do not. Where is the Grand Club ? 

Mr. Rice. 137 South Rampart Street. 

Mr. Grosch. Oh, no ; no. 

Mr. DowLiNG. What is Kelly's full name? 

Mr. Rice. Kelly's Bar, at 137 Rampart. 

]Mr. (iROscH. I don't know that I know him. 

]Mr. Rice. You have no interest in Kelly or his business ? 

]Mr. Grosch. Definitely not. 

Mr. Rice. Are you quite sure you never bought a safe from Rolland, 
on Camp Street? 

Mr. Grosch. I am quite sure. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Julius Pace ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes ; I knew Julius Pace. 

Mr. Rice. What is his business? 

Mr. Grosch. Julius Pace is dead several years. 

Mv. Rice. What was his business before he died? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know. I would have to be thinking or guessing, 
and I don't want to answer a question that way. 

Mr. Rice. Julius Pace ever in your home ? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir ; he was not. 

Mr. Rice. Are you quite sure about that? 

Mr. Grosch. From my recollection, no. I don't remember that he 
was. 

]Mr. Rice. Wasn't he in the slot-machine business? 

Mr. Grosch. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive any money from Pace ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Cigali? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know where he is now ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where is he? 

Mr. Grosch. He is in Chicago. 

Mr. Rice. What doing? 

Mr. Grosch. He went up there to have an eye removed. I believe. 

Mr. Rice. How recent have you seen him ? 

]Mr. Grosch. I saw him at the ball one night last week, at one of 
the carnival balls. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in? 

Mr. Grosch. It would only be hearsay if I answered that question. 

Mr. Rice, Let's have the hearsay. 

Mr. Grosch. I am not going to hearsay any answers. 

Mr. DoAviJNCx. If you don't know, you don't know. 



178 ORGANIZED CRIxME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Well, by reputation ; you are a police officer, 

Mr. Grosch. I don't give reputations to anybod}'. 

The Chairman. Well, tell what you know. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know what business he is in ? 

Mr. Grosch. No ; I don't know of my own knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know if he is in any legitimate business ? 

Mr. Grosch. He is in real estate. I. know he has the Cigali Build- 
ing. He ow^ns the Cigali Building. 

Mr. Rice. Is that his real estate business ? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible he is a lottery operator ? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know any possibilities. I don't answer ques- 
tions that way. 

The Chairman. Let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive any money from Cigali ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. How about CoUogne? 

Mr. Grosch. I do not. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Collogne? 

Mr. Grosch. Collogne is dead. 

Mr. Rice. What business was he in before he died? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. How about Henry Muller? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, I know Henry Muller. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in? 

Mr. Grosch. He is in the hardware business. 

Mr. Rice. What other business is he in ? 

Mr. Grosch. None, to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat other business has he been in ? 

Mr. Grosch. To my knowledge, I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any interest in anv business with Henry 
Muller? 

Mr. Grosch. I do not. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know where Henry Muller is now ? 

Mr. Grosch. I do not. 

Mr. Rice. Well, now, when you were chief of detectives what busi- 
ness was Henry Muller here in ? 

Mr. Grosch. Well, it would only be hearsay again, sir. I am not 
going to answer that either. 

Mr. Rice. Did he operate a house of prostitution ? 

Mr. Grosch. To my knowledge, no. He could have but to my knowl- 
edge, no. Wliy I say that, I w^asn't there to see it. 

The Chairman. All right, anything else ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir; I have a couple of telephone calls I'd like to ask 
him about : On June 28, 1950, Senator Raymond called you from 
Baton Rouge collect. What was that in connection with ? 

Mr. Grosch. On what date was that? 

Mr. Rice. June 28, 1950. 

Mr. Grosch. I don't remember, but it could have been in relation 
to the special session. I am not sure about that. But if he called me, 
it was about legislature. 

Mr. Rice. What about? 

Mr. Grosch. Well, I had some bills up there I was passing. 

Mr, Rice. You were passing some bills? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 179 

Mr. Grosch. That's right. 

Mr. DowLiNG. Getting them passed. 

Mr. Grosch. Getting them passed ; I didn't pass them. The legis- 
lature passed them, but I had somebody introduce them for me. 

Mr. Rice. Why woukl he call you collect in that connection, Mr. 
Grosch ? 

Mr. Grosch. Because he was doing something for me, I guess. . 

Mr. Rice. I see. What were those bills ? 

Mr. Grosch. The bills? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Grosch. One was to give me a doctor for my prison. If this 
is the right date now, I don't know about dates. 

Mr. DoAVLiNG. What is the date again, Counsel ? 

Mr. Rice. June 28, 1950. 

Mr. DowLixG. That was while the legislature was in session. 

Mr. Grosch. If he called from Baton Rouge that was evidently while 
the legislature was in session. I passed a bill giving me a doctor for 
my prison. 

The Chairman. Let's go on. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, on March 21, 1950, you called Mrs. Earl Long 
in Baton Rouge. Do you recall that? 

Mr. Grosch. I have called the Longs, but I don't remember the 
particular dates. 

Mr. Rice. Now, what reason do you have for calling Mrs. Long ? 

Mr. Grosch. I am a sheriff, a parochial officer, a State officer. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Grosch. I have a lot of reasons to talk to the Governor of the 
State, the senators, representatives of the State. 

Mr. Rice. For instance ? 

]Mr. Grosch. Well, I could have called him about supporting his 
nephew for the United States Senate. 

Mr. DowLiNG. Which you did. 

Mr. Grosch. Which I did, and we won. 

The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, let the witness answer. 

]Mr. Grosch. That is probably why I called him. 

;Mr. Rice. Why did you call Mrs. Long ? 

]Mr Grosch. I put the call in evidently for the Governor, Mrs. Long 
answered the phone. 

Mr. Rice. No : this is person to person. 

Mr. Grosch. Then Governor Long was sick, I guess. That's the 
reason I called her. 

The Chairman. All right, let's go on. 

Have vou ever heard of the Cab Bonding Co. ? 

Mr. Grosch. The what? 

Mr. Rice. Cab Bonding Co. 

Mr. Grosch. No. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Dick Dowling? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes, sir ; sitting alongside of me. 

Mr. Rice. Does he have an interest in the Cab Bonding Co. ? 

Mr. Grosch. He would have to answer that for himself. 

Mr. Rice. Do you, Mr. Dowling ? 

Mr. Dowling. Yes. Not an interest. I am attorney for them. 

Mr. Rice. Now, do you have any interest? 

Mr. Grosch. I do not. 



180 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. DowLiNG. Not the Cab Bonding Co. Get the name right. 
Sheppard Cab Co. I am attorney for them. 

Mr. Rice. Sheppard Cab Co. Is tliat a bonding company? 

Mr. DowLiNG. It's a bonding company; I'm their attorney. 

Mr. Rice. Is there a man by the name of Jackson ? 

Mr. DowLiNG. He is the adjnster. 

The Chairman. The cab company is a bonding company? 

Mr. DowLiNG. It's not a cab company. The name is a misnomer ; 
it is a bonding comiDany under an ordinance of the city of New 
Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever received any moneys from tliis company, 
Mr. Grosch ? 

Mr. Grosch. I did not. 

The Chairman. I just wanted to ask you a few questions : When 
were you elected sheriff? 

Mr. Grosch. I was elected in January 1946 and then again in 1950. 

The Chairman. This domestic trouble you had when you had this 
box in the name of John Joseph : When was that ? 

Mr. Grosch. That was '38 or '39, I guess. Or maybe '40. 

I have been investigated for that and I have answered that 10 
times already. 

The Chairman. About the domestic matter ? Is that what you are 
talking about ? 

Mr. Grosch. That's right; about the box which led from domestic 
troubles. 

The Chairman. Well, it was alleged, wasn't it, by your wife, that 
you and she counted out $200,000 or some large amount, in a safety 
deposit box in your home which she had charged was brought to 
you by certain people for certain actions. 

Mr. Grosch. No. That is not true. 

The Chairman. Anyway, that was alleged and charged. 

Mr. Grosch. Where at? I don't know anything about it. 

The Chairman. Some allegation about it. You sajj- that was not 
true? 

Mr. Grosch. No, not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. Let's ask again about this safe. You say you did 
not get one at Rolland or any other place and put in your house. Did 
you have a safe in your house ? 

Mr. Grosch. No, I did not ; never had a safe in my house. 

The Chairman. Back in 1940, before you and your wife separated? 

Mr. Grosch. Mv wife could have purchased a box, but I don't recall 
that I did. 

The Chairman. Did you use the box ? Did you use the box ? 

Mr. Grosch. Did I use the box ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir; I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Well, do you know^ if she had one or not? 

Mr. Grosch. No. to my knowdedge, no. 

The Chairman. Anyway, you never kept any money in any box she 
may have had? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir; I did not. 

Mr. DowLiNG. What is the date of the alleged purchase. Senator? 

The Chairman. Well, it is about 1940, or a little before then. No 
that was purchased in 1934 and kept on up to the time of the divorce, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 181 

about 1940; purchased from Rolland on Camp Street. You don't 
know anything about that? 

INIr. (iKOsni. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is there such a place as HoUand's on Camp Street '. 

JNlr. Ghosch. Yes, sir. 

jNIr. Rice. Does it sell safes and boxes ? 

Mr. Gkoscij. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever done any business with them at all? 

Mr. Groscii. Xo. They may have repaired some safes for the 
sherilf's office. 

The Chaikman. Well, apparently that information must be wronir. 
Anythino- else '. 

Mr. Rice. I think that we may want to recall him later. 

The Chair3Ian. All right. 

Well, there are one or two of these things we want to check up on 
Mr. (xrosch. but apparently our information aboiit the safe must be 
hicorrect. 

Mr. (troscii. That's ri^ht. I don't recall buying a safe. 

The CiiAiRJiAx. If we want you back we can let you or ^Ir. Dowling 
know. 

MV. DowLixG. I will give you my phone number. Senator: Mag- 
nolia 10H3. 

The Chairman. All right that is all. 

Mr. Grosch. Senator, I would like to say something before I leave, 
to keep the record straight. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

]Mr. GRoscii. I heard you ask Mayor Morrison today if I had police 
powers. That I do have. The Supreme Court of this State said that 
the sheriff of the parish of Orleans was indispensable: that the sheriff 
of the parish of Orleans was the arm of the law. B;^fore Mr. Morri- 
son, the mayor, went to Washington and blackened everybody else's 
city, I think he should have kept his own backyard clean. In 1946 
Mayor Morrison went to the legislature to try and take my police 
powers away from me, and in aoing so he took over the police depart- 
ment. My platform in 1946 to elect me in the parish of Orleans as 
sheriff. I had one i:)latform : "Elect me your sheriff' and I will keep 
your city free of crime." Mayor jMorrison was on the same platform 
with me. and went along with that. I received the largest vote of any 
candidate on either ticket because of that promise. I asked Mayor 
Morrison and the commission council to let me live up to my promise 
and let me create my own detective bureau. It would not cost too 
much money : that I would keep the city free from crime to the extent 
that one could hang his watch on a telegraph pole and go back 2 weeks 
later and find it. 

While I was chief of detectives this city received nothing but the 
best of publicity. People were not afraid to come to the city of New 
Orleans. People were safe when they did arrive in New Orleans, and 
the mayor went to the legislature to stop me from passing some laws 
to get myself enough men to help keep the city free of crime. For 16 
years that I was chief of detectives we had a reputation of having 
the cleanest city in this United States. Mr. Morrison went into the 
same legislature and took over the police department, and we have 
more crime in this city today than I believe any city in America its 
size. ^^Hien I was chief of detectives I had 33 detectives, and I kept 



182 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

this city free from crime, I have protected the people's properties, 
their limbs, and their lives. Today, they have a minimum of 1'28 de- 
tectives and the thieves are carrying the city away. 1 offered to help 
Mayor Morrison. I asked him to give me, or let me pick 30 men, create 
my own detective bureau ; that he could handle the gambling, and I 
would handle the thieves, the murderers, and make it safe here in this 
city for the people of this city ; make it safe for the little ones on the 
streets and in their homes. Mayor Morrison did not want my help. 
Pie said he did not ^leed me. Then he goes to Washington and he 
hollers for help and he could have gotten that same help right here in 
the city of New Orleans. Then I am snmmoned to come in here with 
a lot of embarrassing questions as to who I made money from, who I 
took money from, I wonder if that is because I am a State's Righter? 
1 ran on a ticket as a State's Righter. 

The Chairman. Well, I can tell you that right now, sir. I didn't 
know you were a politician, whether you were a States' Righter, Re- 
publican, or what politician you were, so you weren't called in here 
because you were a States' Righter. 

Mr. Grosgii. Senator, may I ask this? What prompted me to be 
called in here Avhere there is nothing against me whatsoever other 
than to ask me a lot of questions : Did I get money here? Did I get 
money ? Did I get money the other place? 

The Chairman. Well, of course, sir, I don't, personally, make in- 
vestigations to see just what we have, or what the evidence is, but we 
have a memorandum which laid the basis for the questions which were 
asked. The fact is, we have two from two sources that appear to be 
reliable, which indicated that these were questions that should be 
asked of you. 

Mr. DowLiNG. Well, in fairness to me. Senator, don't you think 
you should have those witnesses here to testify ? 

The Chairman. Maybe we will have some of them. 

Mr. Grosch. I hope you will. 

The Chairman. T say also in fairness to you, that if any of the 
matters you have been asked about you have denied, if any of them 
are not substantiated, I will be the first to say so to you. 

Mr. Grosch. Thank you, Senator. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

Mr. Grosch. No. 

The Chairman. I did want to ask : You were talking about your 
15 years as chief of detectives; what were the 15 years, from when to 
when ? 

Mr. Grosch. T was appointed chief of detectives in 1930 and re- 
mained chief of detectives until I ran for sheriif in 1946. 

The Chairman. Well, now, wasn't that the time when the slot ma- 
chine New York crowd moved in with its slot machines? 

Mr. Grosch. During that time. Senator, I am going to answer that 
in this way : That the town was wide open ; that handbooks were 
open and I guess lotteries were open and I guess slot machines were 
here. 

The Chairman. How do you explain that? 

Mr. Grosch. Well. I exercised — the duties of catching thieves and 
criminals. I used all of my energy to protect the limbs, the lives, the 
property of our good citizens, and I was not going to attempt to cor- 
rect anj'one's morals. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COIVIMERCE 183 

The Chairman. Well, but you knew, of cour.-e, these things were 
in violation of the law? 

Mr. (trosch. Well, I didn't run into them. I knew that the town 
was open. The town has been open for a hundred years. 

The Chairman. I know. 

Mr. Grosch. But let me answer, please, Senator. And during all 
that time we did have an open town we did not have any crime. 

The (^HAiRMAN. I think, in fairness, sir, that I have seen the crime 
report on New Orleans, and subject to being corrected on it, I believe 
the report shows it is a little better now than in years past. 

JMr. Groscti. Senator, that is not true. You stay around the city 
of New Orleans a week and you will really find out the score. 

The Chairman. I am talking about the national crime report. 

Mr. Grosch. The national crime report will tell — I am going to ask 
you to read this book, Senator. It is interesting. It w-ill give you my 
record in there, as a policeman. 

Mr. DowLiNG. We'd like, at this time, to file the subpena in evidence 
particularly for the reason that the subpena is directed to certain years, 
beginning with 1944, and coming up to date, and although the years 
asked about were not in that subpena, we did not object, but gave all 
the information we possibly could. 

The Chairman. Of course, that is the usual years we ask for. Let 
me ask just these questions: You did nothing to try to stop gambling 
or horsebooks or things of that sort? 

Mr. Grosch. No, sir, I did not. I was too busy catching thieves 
and murderers. 

Mr. DowLiNG. Bank stick-up men. 

Mr. Grosch. Bank stick-up men. 

Mr. Rice. Wlio is testifying now. 

Mr. DowLiNG. I have a right to consult with my client, I believe. 
If thajt right is denied, I don't know where counsel practices law 

The Chairman. Well, just a second. 

Mr. Grosch. May I consult my attorney ? 

Mr. Chairman. Wait just a second, now, Mr. Dowling. We are 
glad to have you here, but don't prompt your client. 

Mr. Dowling. I am not prompting, but I have a right to consult 
with him. He is not being asked any questions now. If he were I 
would not be consulting with him. 

The Chairman. But the question is that while you were chief of 
detectives, a great many people from other sections did move into- New 
Orleans, started operations here on handbooks, a news service, bookie 
operations. 

Mr. Grosch. No, Senator, I don't recall. 

The Chairman. A Mint slot-machine business, and from the gam- 
bling viewpoint the town was literally wide open. 

Mr. Grosch. That's right. 

The Chairman. And you did nothing to correct it? 

Mr. Grosch. No; I spent too much time catching thieves and bank 
stick-up men. 

The Chairman. Well, that is not a very good answer. I mean 
wvasn't your obligation to enforce the law, whatever the law might be? 

Mr. Grosch. Senator, let me answer that in this w^ay. It may not be 
a good answer but the people thought it was all right when they elected 
me to office for two terms. 



184 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, that is a very good answer, too, but I know of 
some other places, too, where a great deal of money may be used. 

Mr. Grosch. In my case there was no money used. 

The Chairman. I think I have heard of some counties where gam- 
bling is wide open and sheriffs have been elected in those places. I 
don't think that that is anything to be proud of in the record or in 
I lie way of law enforcement that you let these people operate. 

Mr. Gros^^ii. I am proud I was able and God gave me the will to 
catch thieves and protect the lives, the limbs, and the property of 
our good citizens. 

The Chairman. Let me ask it this way : If you had your way, would 
you open up the town now ? 

Mr. Grosch. Well, I would answer that in this way : That Mayor 
Morrison asked for a referendum after he was elected and the vote 
w^as fifty-thousand-some-hundred for and only 7,000 against, but 
Mayor Morrison didn't have courage enough to do what he said he 
was going to do. 

The Chairman. Of course, a lot of these gamblers, don't you think 
they are murderers and thieves, too ? 

Mr. Grosch. No ; they are not. 

The Chairman. Fellows like INIarcello, and I have seen some come 
by here today that are a pretty rough-looking bunch. 

Mr. Grosch. I have never known of Carlos Marcello killing any- 
one. 

The Chairman. Did you ever arrest Carlos Marcello? 

Mr. Grosch. Yes ; I did. 

The Chairman. Did you ever get him convicted of anything? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't recall ; it was so long ago. 

The Chairman. Is he a friend of yours? 

Mr. Grosch. No ; he is not. 

The Chairman. He's operated practically every sort of vice and 
crime from narcotics on up, pretty openly right here. 

Mr. Grosch. I said he was not my friend. I was chief of detectives 
and I knew everybody. I made it my business to know everybody. 

The Chairman. The point is these fellows who operate the big 
gambling places, fellows like Carlos Marcello, are also the narcotics, 
thieves, and extortionists. 

Mr. Grosch. Senator, I am talking about the city of New Orleans, 
parish of Orleans. 

The Chairman. Does Carlos Marcello operate in the parish of 
Orleans ? 

Mr. Grosch. Not to my knowledge. 

The Chairman. I wish you could see the reports where he is alleged 
to be operating. 

Mr, Grosch. He is only alleged to be. I don't know of him oper- 
ating in the city of New Orleans, and I have said before, Senator, that 
during my term of office, 16 years, the town w^as wide open and we did 
not have any crime. We went along 13 years without an unsolved 
felony. 

The Chairman. Wliat did you do about narcotics during that time ? 

Mr. Grosch. Well, look in the book and you will see the arrests I 
made. I have put him and many a narcotics — I guess I made as many 
arrests and recovered as many ounces of morphine and heroin as any 
man in the police department or the narcotic agents. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 185 

The Chairman, But you let some other fellows get a pretty bad 
hold, I'm afraid. 

Mr. Gkoscii. No, I am afraid not. We had less narcotics in the 
city of New Orleans 

The Chairman. I am not going to argue with you. 

Mr. Grosch. Well, the record speaks for itself, Senator. 

The Chairman. It does ; it speaks for itself. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Does anybody else want to testify tonight before 
we leave? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. We will stand in recess then until 9 : 30 in the 
morning. 

(Whereupon, at 11:30 the Senate subcommittee hearing was ad- 
journed to January 26, 1951, at 9 : 30 a. m.) 



INVESTIGATION OF OKGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



FRIDAY, JANUARY 26, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special. Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime in Interstate Commerce, 

New Orleans^ La, 

The committee reconvened at 9 : 30 a. m., Friday, January 26, 1951, 
Senator Estes Kefauver (chairman) presiding. 

The Chairman. Before we proceed with witnesses who have been 
subpenaed, I would like to ask at this time if there are any witnesses 
or any people whose names have been brought out at the hearing who 
want to be heard or to make any explanation or to refute anything 
that has been said ? 

(No response.) 

Of course, our present plans are, if it is posible to do so, to termi- 
nate this hearing today. I would dislike very much to leave New 
Orleans and have on tomorrow somebody to say that they were im- 
properly accused and didn't have an opportunity to be heard. 

Is there anyone whose name has been brought out in the hearing 
who wants to iDe heard at this time ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. You might ask if the missing witnesses are here. 

The Chairman. Also I would like to ask if the witnesses we have 
not been able to find have been served subpenas or if any of them have 
come in? 

Read their names again, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Their names are Henry Mills, Arthur Mills, Frank Mills, 
Osmond Litolff, and Henry Muller. 

The Chairman. Has anybody heard anything of these people? 

(No response.) 

Did we agree to hear somebody at 9:30 this morning first? 

Mr. Talbot. Yes ; you agreed to hear Mr. Clancy. 

The Chairman. Wait just a second, sir. 

I am advised, sir, that there are one or two other witnesses who 
will testify about some matters in connection with the parish that 
the sheriff comes from. In order to be fair with him and give him 
an o])]3ortunity to have any and all testimony relative to that parish 
in before he testifies, it will be better to defer his testimony until a 
little later. 

Mr. Talbot. The chairman has complete control of the order. 

The Chairman. If he testifies and somebody else testifies about 
matters there, why then he would have to come back again if he 
wanted to. 

68958— 51— pt. 8 13 187 



188 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Talbot. We would prefer to finish, although I don't suppose 
we will have any rebuttal. 

The Chairman. We will keep in touch with you. Maybe in a few 
minutes we can give you some idea about when we will be through. 

TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY MARCELLO, GRETNA, LA., ACCOMPANIED 
BY G. WRAY GILL AND WILLIAM C. ORCHARD, ATTORNEYS, NEW 
ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. Mr. Anthony Marcello, do you solemnly swear the 
testimony you will give this committee with be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Marcello. I do. 

The Chairman. Mr. Anthony Marcello. What is your address, Mr. 
Marcello? 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please, prior to proceeding with the ques- 
tioning of this witness 

The Chairman. We will let the record show that Mr. G. W. Gill 
and William C. Orchard are appearing as counsel for Anthony 
Marcello. 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. 

If Your Honor please, prior to proceeding with the questioning 
of the witness, we wish to offer the objection we have heretofore made 
with reference to his brother, Carlos Marcello; that is, unless ordered 
to do so by the chairman, w^e refuse to proceed with the hearing because 
of the absence of a quorum, and should Your Honor order us to pro- 
ceed, it will be over our objection. 

The Chairman. Yes. All right. The same objection that you 
noted to the proceedings in the Carlos Marcello matter will be noted 
here. 

Mr. Gill. All of the objections, sir ? 

The Chairman. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Gill. I would like to add this objection, too, please, sir, that 
as much as the Constitution provides that one shall have the privilege 
of free speech, we respectfully submit and suggest to you, Senator, 
that it works in the alternative, that if he has the privilege of free 
speech, he should not be forced to answer a question that does not 
meet with his desire to answer, because in the alternative if he refuses 
to answer, then, of course, he would face the contempt proceedings. 
For that reason, we also refuse to proceed with the hearing, and should 
Your Honor order it be proceeded with, it will be over our objection. 

The Chairman. All right. We will note your objection. 

Mr. Gill. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. Of course, I think in that connection that claim- 
ing of free speech also gives the right not to testify anything before 
a hearing, and what not. 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Anyway, your objection is noted. 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All riglit, let's proceed. 

Give us your address, Mr. Marcello. 

Mr. Marcello. 620 Romain Street, Gretna, La. 

The Chairman. Before we proceed with Mr. Marcello, let the chair- 
man ask one or two questions. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 189 

You are a brother of Carlos Marcello ? 

Mr. Marello. That is right. 

The Chairman. Answer up so we can hear you. 

Mr. Marcello. That's right. 

The Chairman. Now how many of you boys are there ? 

Mr. Marcello. Seven. 

The Chairman. Anthony, Carlos — name the others. 

Mr. Marcello. Anthony, Carlos, Joseph, Pete, Sam, and Pasquale. 

The Chairman. All right, you proceed, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Where were you born, Mr. Marcello ? 

Mr. Marcello. With due respect to the committee, I am going to 
refuse to answer any and all questions other than my name and place 
of residence, on the grounds that they may tend to incriminate me. 
I also refuse to produce any documents, records, or papers on the 
grounds that they may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, are you under any indictment at the particular 
time ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, you are directed to answer that question. 

Mr. Giix. May I offer an objection at this time, Your Honor 1 On 
yesterday a statement was made by the Senator, and I make this state- 
ment with all due deference and respect to the committee and without 
tending to in any wise criticize the Senator's opinion, but nevertheless 
regardless of its predication the Senator's opinion, and doubtless the 
opinion of this committee, was as stated by the Senator yesterday 
and recorded in the papers and heard, of course, by me in the court 
room, that his brother was one of the top criminals of America. 

The Chairman. If there is any doubt about that I want to restate 
it now, too, certainly. 

Mr. Gill. I appreciate that is Your Honor's studied opinion, and 
inasmuch as that be true, the same blood of that man runs in this man's 
veins ; the same father and the same mother, and I now ask Your Honor 
to defer further questioning of this witness as it is obvious that his 
answers will be the same as his brother, because, sir, for him to answer 
any question, knowing the process of investigation that has been 
instituted, would be seeking to make him an innocent link in a chain 
of circumstances that might result in evidence being offered that might 
tend to be a connecting link in what appears to be an investigation con- 
cerning his brother, particularly as regards the immigi'ation situation 
as investigated by Your Honor on yesterday, and I respectfully ask 
Your Honor to please not ask this witness any further questions if 
in asking the witness the questions it is the intention of Your Honor 
and of the members of your committee to add count after count of 
contempt against this witness for his refusal to answer further ques- 
tions. 

The Chairman. Well, now, Mr. Gill, counsel for the committee 
will, of course, ask the witness any questions he thinks should b& 
calculated to bring out the matters that we know about the witness. 

Mr. Gill. Certainly, sir. 

The Chairman. I want to say, though, that it will be our fervent 
hope that because one member of the family happens to be in a bad 
situation so far as criminality is concerned that every other member 



190 ORGANIZED CRrME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

of the family is or all liis brothers. This man seems to be a younger 
brother, and I hope, to begin with, that he might be willing to follow 
in a different course and that he might not want to follow the same 
action that his brother did on yesterday. 

But I think we have had enough of that. Let's get on. 

Mr. Gill. May I make a further statement to Your Honor? It 
won't take but a moment. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Gill. I might say to Your Honor if he were called into a court 
of justice, no court in the world, I believe, would pretend that this 
man should be a witness directly or indirectly against his brother, 
and on yesterday Your Honor stated, in answer to one of the questions 
or as a gratuitous remark, that Joseph and Anthony were known 
criminals. Now, I might say to Your Honor that Joseph and Anthony 
have never been convicted at any time in their life. 

The Chairman. Well, let's let the witness testify about that, Mr. 
Gill. 

Mr. Gill. I only say this, sir, to show that your source of informa- 
tion — — 

Mr. Rice. How do you know that, sir ? 

The CHxMrman. Well, that's all right. 

Mr. Rice. How do you know whether he has or not ? 

Mr. Gill. Well, I know, sir. I have checked the records. 

Mr. Rice. You know that on information and belief, don't you ? 

Mr. Gill. No, sir. I have checked the records. 

Mr. Orchard. That is all you have. 

Mr. Gill. I definitely do know, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. I have the right to ask the witness. 

The Chairman. Mr. Gill, I think we have had enough of that. If 
he wants to tell about the matter, all right, but Ave want him to 
testify. 

Go ahead, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you have asserted your privilege as to the 
questions as to whether or not you are under inclictment. Are you 
under indictment at this time ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Well, the Chair orders you to answer that question. 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that 
it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. In refusing to answer do you fear prosecution from a 
Federal or State offense? 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please, I submit it would be asking a 
man to say what he is guilty of. You are asking that he testify against 
himself, and I respectfully object to the question. 

So that is an entirely proper question. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Gill, of course the law is that it cannot be 
a fantastic objection, unless it is an effort to exercise that constitutional 
privilege, unless he has some particular crime in mind. The Senate 
and the court will have to try to judge the questions in the light of 
what the allegations against him, or the charges against him that he 
is afraid of, are. 

Mr. Gill. I appreciate Your Honor's position. It is rather a dif- 
ficult one. But I say it is asking a man to say what he is guilty of, 
to confess- 



ORGANIZED CRIME; IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 191 

The Chairman. We are trying to find out — he is claiming his 
privilege — we are trying to find out just ^Yhat crime it is that he thinks 
might incriminate him. 

Mr. Gill. Well, Your Honor will note my objection'^ 

The Chairman. Yes, we will note your objection. 

Mr. Gill. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir ; is it a Federal or State offense that you have 
in mind'^ 

Mr. IMarcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Can it be noted that on these questions, unless 
otherwise stated by the chairman, that the chairman has ordered him 
to answer where he refuses to answer? 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Orchard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You understand that, Mr. Marcello? 

Mr. Marcello. Yes. 

Mr. Gill. And would it also be noted if he just says "I refuse to 
answer," that it will be for the same reason heretofore given? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir ; we will agree to that. 

Mr. Gill. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did the transaction from which you fear prosecution in- 
volve yourself or others ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

]Mr. Rice. Did the transaction from which you fear prosecution 
occur more than 10 years ago ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Less than 10 years ago ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you were called upon to produce certain records. 
Do you have those ? 

Mr. Marcello. No. 

Mr. Rice. On what grounds do you refuse to produce those? 

Mr. Marcello. On the grounds that they may tend to incriminate 
me. 

Mr. Rice. In a Federal or State offense? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Rice. What is your business, sir ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. How old are you ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Are you married ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Are you single ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Are you a citizen ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Are you an alien ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Were you born in Africa ? 

Mr. JMarcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. In 1946 were you associated with Joe Poretto? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Joe Poretto ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 



192 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Now, for the record, Joe Poretto is the man who 
started up the Southern News Publishing Co. about 1946. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the wire service? 

Mr. M.4JtcELL0. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of News Service? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. In 1946 did you receive $300 from the News Service in 
New Orleans, La.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Were you not associated in the News Service known as 
the Southern News & Publishing Co. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Were you not associated with Poretto, Ralph Emory, of 
Cicero, 111., Frank Capello, Anthony Carollo, and your brother, Joseph 
Marcello, Jr., in the wire service, 1946? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, sir ; do you know a Mr. J. J. Fogarty ? 

Mr. ]\Iarcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Were you not associated in the operation known as the 
Daily Sports News ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not participate in a partnership known as the 
Daily Sports News in 1947? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not have 37i/^ percent? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not have 37i/2 percent of the business known as 
the Daily Sports News? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did 5"ou not receive $3,172.73 from your partner- 
ship in the News Service in 1946? 

Mr. Orchard. If that is from his income-tax records, we object on 
the ground it is violative of the President's directive. 

The Chairman. It is a question that the witness is asked. 

Mr. Orchard. Will you please note our objection? 

The Chairman. Yes; we note your objection. 

Mr. Rice. What is your answer ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairivi AN. Did he receive anything ? 

Mr. Rice. Did you receive, or were you paid any money by the News 
Service in 1946? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, in 1947, were you paid any money by any news 
service? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Specifically, the Daily Sports News. 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not receive $8,782.59? 

Mr. Orchard. The same objection, Your honor. 

The Chairman. Let it be noted. 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an interest in a record shoj) ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mi\ Rice. Have you had an interest in a record shop ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 193 

The Chairman. Now, for the record, what record shop are you talk- 
intr about, Mr. Rice; are you tryin<^ to brinjr out? 

Mr. Rice. A record shop personally owned by the witness on Huey 
P. Long Avenue in Gretna. 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. You mean a record shop, with phonograph records ? 

Mr. Orchard. I submit that counsel is testifying. We should iden- 
tify the place or ask the man what is the name of the business, and 
so on. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Orchard, that is just what we are 
trying to find out, what he had in mind asking about. Go ahead. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an interest in the New Orleans Cigarette 
Service Corp. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Marcello. Did you have an interest in 1948 in the New Orleans 
Cigarette Service Corp.? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Were you paid any money by the New Orleans Cigarette 
Service Corp. ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have an interest in any gambling club? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any legitimate business ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Specifically, do you have an interest in the New South- 
port Club ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Are you not a partner in the operation known as the New 
Southport Club in Jefferson Parish? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Have you not been paid a substantial sum of money 
from the New Southport Club in Jefferson Parish? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been arrested ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been in jail? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever served time in Atlanta ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Eddie Mooney ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Vic Trapani ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Tony Trapani ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true that you accompanied Eddie Mooney, a 
representative of the S. & G. Gambling Syndicate in Florida to the 
New Southport gambling casino along with Vic and Tony Trapani 
•during the months of February and March of 1949 ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been engaged in the narcotics 
Tjusiness ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 



194 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chaieman. Do you and your brother Carlos have an interest 
in some sailing ships or boats in which you brought in narcotics 
or marijuana? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. What is your father's name ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been out of the State of Louisiana ? 

Mr. Marcello. I refuse to answer. 

The Chairman. Well, there is no use going on with this witness 
any further. 

Well, with whatever strength we have we will certainly try to rec- 
ommend that you get the full extent of the law, sir. That will be all. 

(Witness excused.) 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Cavalier. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cavalier, please. 

Mr. Nicholas Carbajal. ]\Iay I have the permission of the court 
for a few minutes ? 

The Chairman. What is your name ? 

Mr. Carbajal. Carbajal; C-a-r-b-a-j-a-1. I am not a witness in 
the case. 

The Chairman. What is it you wish to talk about, Mr. Carbajal? 

Mr. Carbajal. I want to correct the record. In the testimony of 
Mayor Morrison yesterday in the investigation, he referred to a 
Nicholas Carbajal. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

The Carbajal. I am Nicholas Carbajal. 

The Chairman. Sit down. 

Mr. Carbajal. I am an attorney, and have practiced in New Orleans 
for 30 years or longer, and I am a member of the State senate, and 
I wanted to make it clear to the court that I was not the Nick Carbajal 
that Mayor Morrison referred to in his testimony yesterday. 

The Chairman. We appreciate your coming in. Senator Carbajal. 
We appreciate your coming in and making that correction. I didn't 
know who it was he was talking about, and we certainly don't want to 
do you any harm. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a nephew, sir ? 

Mr. Carbajal. I have a nephew ; yes, sir. He is dead. 

The Chairman. What was his name ? 

Mr. Carbajal. His name was Nicholas Carbajal. He is dead. 

The Chairman. Who was it he was referring to, do you know ? 

Mr. Carbajal. I believe that he was referring to his son. I don't 
know what relation that would be to me, his son. 

The Chairman. You mean ■ 

Mr. Carbajal. My cousin's son. That would be my second, third, 
or fourth cousin. 

The Chairman. That would be your first cousin once or twice re- 
moved. 

Mr. Carbajal. I think that is who he was referring to. I have seen 
this boy once, and I would not know him if I would see him now. 

The Chairman. Anyway, the transaction he was talking about was 
not you, and you had no involvement in it. 

Mr. Carbajal. That is correct. 

The Chairman. We appreciate your stepping forward. 

Mr. Carbajal. Thank you. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTEESTATE COMMERCE 195 

The Chairman. I am o^lad that Senator Carbajal came up because 
that is the kind of thing we want to prevent. I don't know the senator. 
I have never seen him before, but when somebody's name becomes con- 
fused with somebody else's name, I think it ought to be corrected. 

All right. Who is the witness? 

Mr. KiCE. Mr. Cavalier. 

Deputy Marshal Burglass. He was here yesterday. He is not 
here this morning. 

Mr. Cavalier? 

(No response.) 

I will get him on the phone. He was here yesterday. 

Mr. KicE. Mr. McCain. 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES I. McCAIN, ATTORNEY AT LAW, 
NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. You are Mr. James I. McCain, an attorney at law, 
New Orleans, La. ? 

Mr. McCain. I am James I. McCain, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will 
give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. McCain. I do. 

The Chairman. What is your address, Mr. McCain ? 

Mr. McCain. 404 Industries Building. That is my business address. 

The Chairman. Yes ; that is what we want. 

Mr. McCain needs his files. All right, let's get to the point. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. McCain, you are an attorney at law here? 

Mr. McCain. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And some time back you were interested in certain pad- 
lock suits, efforts for padlock suits, in Jefferson Parish. Will you tell 
us a little bit about that, Mr. McCain ? 

Mr. McCain. I represented certain taxpayers in the parish of 
Jeft'erson who filed two suits, one against the Club Forest and one 
against the Beverlj^ Country Club, under Act 192 of 1920, under which 
act the petitioners and taxpayers were authorized to get an injunction 
padlocking the operation of these gambling establishments. 

The suits were filed in 1947, July and August, and the judges of the 
lower court, in the district court of Jefferson Parish, threw out our 
cases or dismissed them on exceptions on the basis that the act under 
which we were bringing this civil suit was unconstitutional. 

We appealed the cases to the State supreme court because the State 
statute had been held unconstitutional, and the supreme court, on 
November 1948, held that act 192 was constitutional and by unani- 
mous opinion sent the case back to the district court to be tried, order- 
ing the district court to proceed wath the cases; that the act was 
constitutional. 

Although the act provided that we were entitled to trial within 5 
days I had great difficulty in getting the judges of the lower court in 
Jefferson to fix the case for trial. We were armed with a mandate of 
the State supreme court, and it was only after several months that I 
was able to get the judges of the district court. Judge McCune was the 
one to whom the case was assigned by the supreme court. Judge Rivarde 
being sick. 



196 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

During the delay between the time that I had the opinion of the 
supreme court in my favor, and until I could get a trial in the lower 
court again, I was approached by a gentleman, a friend of mine, who 
asked me if I would hold the cases up and not proceed against the 
Club Forest. I told him that I was unable to do that. He said, "All I 
want you to do is delay the cases." He said, "I will put you on the 
payroll of the Club Forest if you will delay them." 

Mr. Rice. What technique was suggested to effect this delay? 

Mr. McCain. Well, he said that was up to me. He said that the 
judges would get sick and that the sheriff would not be available; I 
could not get my subpenas served. 

Mr. Rice. Was that up to you to arrange for the judges to get 
sick? 

Mr. McCain. No. He assured me I would have all assistance from 
the State officials in Jefferson Parish in delaying my case if I cared 
to. 

Mr. Rice. Did he specifically mention any judges; the sheriff is 
Clancy, is it not ? 

Mr. McCain. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. Well, now, that delay; was that to be continued in- 
definitely ? 

Mr. McCain. As long as I could delay the case, he said that as a 
lawyer I could stall, he was confident, for several months. I assured 
him 

Mr. Talbot. Mr. Chairman, I happen to represent Mr. Clancy, and 
I submit this is the rankest kind of hearsay. 

The Chairman. All right, will you 

Mr. Talbot. It is not evidence this committee should receive. 

The Chairman. If you will, have a seat, sir. Mr. Clancy will be 
here and have an opportunity to be heard. I think that unless the 
witness is willing to tell who it was and what his connection was, that 
we should not proceed on this matter. 

Mr. McCain. Well, Senator, this man is a man who I have done 
business for, and nothing came of it, I assure you, sir. He came to me 
in confidence, not himself feeling he was doing anything wrong, and 
I would rather not disclose his name. I mean whatever offers I had 
were not accepted, I assure you. 

Mr. Talbot. And they were not from the officials ? 

The Chairman. Wait just a second. 

Well, I am going to rule unless it is possible to state the man's name 
that we will have to strike this evidence from the record. 

Mr. McCain. I had other offers of lump-sum amounts which I 
didn't accept. 

The Chairman. Well, if you will tell who they came from, who 
made the offers, and what their connection was 

Mr. McCain. Senator, I would rather not do it, sir. They are 
friends of mine. I would not have been made these offers unless I 
had first assured them that I would not involve them ; I assure you. 

The Chairman. You mean you got the matter, you feel, in pro- 
fessional confidence ? 

Mr. McCain. Most certainly; yes, sir. Men I had done business 
for whom these people used because they knew that I would not ex- 
pose them; that I would deal with them on an honest basis. But I 
will assure you that nothing came of it and nothing was accepted. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 197 

The Chairman. Well, on that basis, unless you can tell who it was 
you were dealing with I don't want to do somebody an injustice un- 
less they have an opportunity of knowing who it was, so I will have 
to order that that testimony be stricken out of the record. 

Mr. McCain. Very well. 

The Chairman. And I will ask the press not to report it, I am 
sure 3'ou are acting in the — I appreciate your position. I don't want 
you to have to involve — bring out some professional confidence, but 
unless you can tell who the people were I don't think the testimony 
should be recorded. 

Mr. McCain. I would rather not, sir. I ask you not to press me. 
I received it in professional confidence. 

The Chairman. Let's proceed with what happened about the law- 
suits. 

Mr. McCain. Well, now, to what detail do you want me to go ? I 
can give you each step, sir. 

The Chairman. Yes ; that is what we would like to know. 

Mr. McCain. Well, I filed the injunction suits in August and July, 
I said, of 1947. They were fixed for hearing in July and August of 
1947, and the exceptions filed by the defense counsel for the clubs 
on the basis that the law that we were proceeding under was uncon- 
stitutional : Their argument and position were sustained by the dis- 
trict court. We took an appeal in August of 1947 to the Supreme 
Court, which was filed in September, and on February 17, 1948, the 
case was argued in the State supreme court on the question of the un- 
constitutionality of act 192 of 1920, which was the State statute un- 
der which we were proceeding, and which gave us the right to bring 
the injunction proceedings. 

The Chairman. May I ask, Mr. McCain 

Mr. McCain. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. As I know nothing about Louisiana law, and very 
little about the law of Tennessee since I have been out of the practice 
so long, what was the particular technicality that was alleged to make 
the law unconstitutional? 

Mr. McCain. The statute provided this, sir: That 10 taxpayers 
could proceed in any district court and file a suit seeking to padlock 
the clubs involved. The defense counsel contended that the word 
"any" meant that the petitioners could go into any district court in 
the State regardless of the location of the clubs. They argued that 
we could have — although we did go into Jefferson Parish, we hever 
went into any other court. In botli suits — in fact in three suits — one 
suit against Mr. Mills, and he disappeared. We never could serve 
him. 

Mr. Rice. Is that against Mills, of the Club Forest ? 

Mr. McCain. That is correct, sir. We filed one against Mr. Mills 
as the operator of the Club Forest. We never could serve him. 

Mr. Rice. On the grounds it was a gambling establishment. 

Mr. McCain. Yes, sir; alleging in each case they were public and 
notorious gambling establishments, highly advertised, and so forth. 

The suit against Mr. Mills 

Mr. Rice. Wliich Mr. Mills was that? 

Mr. McCain. That is, I think, Henry, sir. Now, he is the one that 
was the head of the organization at the time ; the one who took title 
to the real estate. I proceeded against him on the basis that the real 



■198 'ORGATSnZED CRIME IN IIsTTERSTATE COMMERCE 

'estate was in his name. He, to use an expression, "took it on the lam," 
and we never could serve him. So we dropped that suit and I pro- 
ceeded against the Club Forest, Inc., a corporation, which was the 
owner of the club, and, of course, we made a service there because of 
the fact the corporation had to have registered agents, whom we 
served. 

Does that answer your question ? 

Mr. Rice. Do you recall who the agents were ? 

Mr. MdCAiN. Mr. Carlos Marcello — no; he was the agent for the 
Beverly Club, but as soon as we filed suit against him and sought to 
serve him, the corporation met and appointed another agent ; a young 
lady whose name I don't recall, but there were two agents, and we 
served both of them. We served Mr. Marcello, but his authority was 
revoked shortly after we served him, so we served the other party who 
was his substitute, as a matter of certainty. I don't think we had to, 
but we did it. 

Mr. Rice. Was that name Murphy? 

Mr. McCain. I believe the lady's name was Murphy. I have it in 
this file, sir. By resolution of the corporation, this young woman was 
substituted as the agent for service of process. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now then, you took the cases up in the 
supreme court on the constitutional question. What happened? 

Mr. McCain. That was on February 17, 1948. Judge Bond, one of 
the judges of the supreme court, died the next day. We had to reargue 
the case on October 6, 1948; and on November 8, 1948, by unanimous 
opinion, the supreme court held that the law was constitutional, and 
directed the district court to proceed with the trial. 

An application for rehearing was made on November 22, 1948, and 
on February 14, 1949, a rehearing was refused, so that from February 
14, 1949, we were armed with a mandate to go back to the district 
court, directing the district court to proceed with the case. 

We made numerous efforts to get the judge to fix the case. Judge 
Rivarde was sick; Judge McCune was apparently unavailable: his 
docket was too congested, and it was not until, I think, some time in 
April or May that we argued the case before the district judge, Judge 
McCune. 

Both cases were consolidated, and Judge McCune held despite the 
holding of the supreme court and the fact that he must follow its 
■order, Judge McCune held the act again unconstitutional on the same 
grounds that he held it unconstitutional before, and which the supreme 
court said was not good. 

His explanation why he did not follow the supreme court's opinion 
was that he had read it six times and he stated in open court he didn't 
understand what the supreme court said. He again dismissed both 
suits on the same grounds. 

Then we took a second appeal to the supreme court, and the second 
appeal was filed in the supreme court on June 27, 1949, and we argued 
the matter in the supreme court on January 10, 1950. 

On June 30, after having the case under advisement for 6 months — 
approximately 6 months — the supreme court reversed their previous 
unanimous opinion, holding the statute constitutional, and although 
we had the same argument, the same lawyers, the same briefs, the 
same points, the same everything, the supreme court reversed their 
previous unanimous decision and by a 4-to-3 decision held the law un- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 199 

tonstitutional, and dismissed our suit; said the statute under which 
we were proceeding was no good. And, consequently, there was 
nothing left for the plaintiffs, as far as a civil proceeding was con- 
cerned, to do; so we were then forced to use the State enforcement 
officers, which of course we had learned previor.sly through numerous 
efforts, was a useless attempt. 

Mr. EicE. You never did get to issue on the merits, then ? 

Mr. ]\IcCain. We never did get to present evidence. Although I 
went at least a half dozen times with my witnesses, I never got a trial. 

Mr. EicE. Now, in preparation for the case, did you have a number 
of witnesses to testify as to the gambling activities taking place in 
those clubs ? 

Mr. McCain. Although the statute said you should have 10 tax- 
payei-s, I had 20 in one, and 16 in the other, and I had each one of them 
go to the clubs, examine the fact that there was gambling, and each 
one of them was a witness who knew of his own knowledge that there 
was gambling in the two clubs. 

I went myself, but I was not going to act as a witness. 

The Chairman. What is the style of the case? 

Mr. McCain. The case is ETlzey v. The Beverly Country Club et al. 
The first case is in 38 Southern. I can't give you the page. Senator, 
The second case was decided in 1950, and I think you will find it in 
about 45 or 46 Southern. I will be glad to furnish you the citation, 
if you want it. 

The Chairman. All right ; I wish you would do so. 

What w^as the final holding of the Supreme Court as to why the 
statute was unconstitutional? 

Mr. McCain. They said that where the plaintiffs could go into any 
parish that the plaintiff's were permitted to go into the parish other 
than the parish in which the clubs were located, and that therefore 
requiring the defendants to answer to a case in a parish other than 
where the club was located would be depriving them of due process of 
law. 

The Chairman. Well, was the suit brought in the parish where the 
club was located ? 

Mr. McCain. Yes, sir ; both suits, all three suits were. All the peo- 
ple lived in the parish. The clubs w«re located in the parish. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a list of those witnesses who were prepared 
to testify as to the gambling activities in your files ? 

Mr. INIcCain. Well, they are all the plaintiffs in the case; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Not as to their names, but as to having them available. 

Mr. McCain. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. File a copy of the petition as a part of your testi- 
mony. Would you do so ? 

Mr. McCain. Yes, sir ; I will be glad to. 

The Chairman. Let that be exhibit No. 17. 

(The documents were marked "Exhibit No. 17," and appear in i\\& 
appendix on p. 437.) 

The Chairman. We have heretofore put in the record certain sec- 
tions of the code, statute 1950, title 14, section 90, that has to do with 
the prohibition of gambling; and article 19, section 5. You are fa- 
miliar with the memorandum that we have filed?' 

Mr. McCain. Yes, sir. 



200 ORGANIZED CRIME: IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. That is a correct statement of the law of the State 
of Louisiana? 

Mr. McCain. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. McCain. There is also a statute on slot machines. I presume 
you have that ? 

The Chairman. Yes. Anything else, Mr. Rice? 

Mr. EiCE. I think that is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Has Mr. Cavalier come in yet ? 

Deputy Marshal Burglass. He is reported to return at 2 o'clock 
today. I spoke to his lawyer, Mr. Weysham. 

The Chairman. Mr. Moran? 

Deputy Marshal Burglass. He was told to come at 11 o'clock this 
morning. 

The Chairman. How about Trapani? Is Mr. Trapani here yet? 

TESTIMONY OF SAM TRAPANI, NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOMPANIED 
BY G. W. GILL AND WILLIAM C. ORCHARD, ATTORNEYS, NEW 
ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. Mr. Trapani, do you solemnly swear the tes'^imony 
you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Trapani. I do. 

The Chairman. And Mr. Gill and Mr. Orchard are representing 
Mr. Trapani. Is that right? 

Mr. Gill. This defendant was served, if Your Honor please, by a 
subpena that was intended for his brother, Vic Trapani. This is Sam. 

Mr. Rice. Wait a minute, sir. What information do you have, 
to make that statement? 

Mr. Gill. The original subpena. I would like to see the original 
subpena. Do you have it there ? 

Mr. Rice. You are testifying now. 

Mr. Gill, I have the duplicate. I would just like to see the original. 

The Chairman. Let's see what it is you have here. 

Mr. Orchard. Here it is [handing document to the chairman.] 
That was addressed to Vic, and the gentleman who was serving it, 
-when the books were not tendered because of Vic Trapani being in the 
hospital, his name was written into that by whatever gentleman served 
him. I don't know whether Mr. Halley or who it was. Your Honor 
will notice on the addenda the attachment still bears the name of 
Victor Trapani. 

We spoke to Mr. Halley yesterday, sir, about these books. Those 
books are available if wanted, and Mr. Orchard and myself under- 
stand that they had copies or had what they wanted and probably 
didn't want them. If you want the books they are available, and you 
can have them. We'll have them brought in any time you want them. 

The Chairman. All right. Will you bring them in as soon as 
possible ? 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir ; but this man is not 

The Chairman. Who will be the one to tell about the books? 

Mr. Gill. Victor, sir; but he is very, very ill in the hospital. 

The Chairjvian. I know, but what auditor ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 201 

Mr. Gill. Mr. Murphy. He knows all about the books. We will ask 
Mr. Murphy to brin^ them in himself. 

The Chaikman. Well, Mr. Murphy will be here with the books 
by 

Mr. Gill. A little after 12. 

The Chairman. The first thing this afternoon ? 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. What time do you want him ? 

The Chairjvian. 1 : 30 this afternoon. 

Mr. Gill. All right, we will have him. 

The CuAiRMAisr. Now what does — Sam Trapani is here. 

Mr. GuJL. He was just given that for the purpose — I believe Mr. 
Halley could tell you — to be sure to get the books in. 

Mr. Klein. Kiley. 

Mr. Gill. Kiley; excuse me. When Sam Trapani remonstrated 
about giving the books because he had no authority that is when his 
name was written in. 

The Chairman. We had some other questions we wanted to ask 
Mr. Trapani. Go ahead. 

This man is not the custodian of the books ? 

Mr. Gill. Not the custodian, and just an employee. 

Mr. Rice. Is your name Sam Trapani ? 

]\Ir. Trapani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. EicE. You are a brother of Vic Trapani? 

Mr. Trapani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where is Vic Trapani ? 

Mr. Trapani. He is very ill in Hotel Dieu. 

Mr. Rice. What is his ailment? 

Mr. Trapani. Tumor, I understand. 

Mr. Rice. When did he go there? 

Mr. Trapani. Oh, I'd say approximately a week ago. 

Mr. Rice. What is your business, Mr. Trapani ? 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please, prior to the witness being ques- 
tioned any further, I wish to add and urge the same objections as here- 
tofore 

The Chairman. That will be noted. 

Mr. Gill. With reference to Mr. Carlos Marcello and his brother, 
Anthony. 

The Chairman. That will be noted. 

Mr. Gill. And also another objection that the continued examina- 
tion will be violative of the equal protection clause of the Constitution 
and due process of law clause. 

The Chairman. Ver}^ well. 

Mr. Gill. And ask that that objection be noted. 

The Chairman. Very well, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What is your business, Mr. Trapani ? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer on the grounds it might tend to 
incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are you under indictment? 

Mr: Trapani. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is your assertion of privilege based on a claim that you 
fear prosecution from a Federal or State offense? 

Ml'. Gill. Same objection as heretofore, Your Honor. 

The Ciiair:man. All right. 

Mr. Rice. What is your answer? 



202 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer, Senator, on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did the transaction occur more than 10 years ago ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Trapani, I hate to have any difficulty with 
you. I will have to direct you to answer these questions that you are 
being asked. 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer on the grounds 

The Chairman. I should think — if I may tell counsel, I believe 
what we want to ask this man about is whether he is a partner and has 
^n interest in the club out here. 

Mr. Gill. I appreciate your 

The Chairman. I suppose if you are going to bring the records 
in — — 

Mr. Gill. We will submit the records, if Your Honor please, for 
whatever they may tend and without any objection. I might add, sir, 
we both know the type of establishment you are proceeding to inves- 
tigate, and if he were to answer in the affirmative he would be liable, 
to prosecution in the courts in Gretna for working in a gambling 
house, that has to do with gambling, and charged with conspiracy. 

Mr. Rice. Shouldn't he be prosecuted for that? 

Mr. Gill. Sir, I don't think that is for us to determine. That is 
not what you are supposed to be investigating, from what I under- 
stand. 

The Chairman. What we would like to ask him about is how he 
got into the partnership and how much of the partnership he owns. 

Mr. Gill. Couldn't we put it this way, Senator ? I know you are 
endeavoring to be fair. You have a job to do and I find no fault with 
your doing it, sir. I wonder this if after talking with Mr. Murphy, 
going over the books with Mr. Murphy, if you deem it necessary we 
will try to bring him back. I am only trying to save this man from 
a charge, if possible. If he answers anything, they could put him in 
jail over in Gretna if he is working in a gambling house. 

The Chairman. He has no right to refuse to answer because of 
privilege — to refuse to answer because of a State charge. 

Let me ask you. Counsel, has this young man been in any trouble 
before ? 

Mr. Gill. Never in his life, sir, that I understand. 

Mr. Trapani. Right. 

Mr. Gill. Neither was the first witness here this morning, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, of course, we could not get anything at all 
out of him. 

Mr. Gill. He was just nervous. I tried to tell him three times to 
tell you he had not been in trouble and he had been overseas, in combat 
duty, and so forth. 

Mr. Rice. Do you tell all your witnesses what to say. Counsel? 

Mr. Gill. No, sir; but if I think the question is pertinent, sir, I 
would certainly advise him to answer it. If I would be permitted^ 
I would have done it. 

Mr. Orchard. Mr. Gill and I will match our ethics with yours. 
Counsel ? 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. How old are you ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 203 

Mr. Trapani. Thirty-one. 

Mr. Rice. Are you married ? 

Mr. Trapani. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Henry Mills? 

Mr. Trapani. I have seen him. 

Mr. Rice. You have seen him. When did you see him last? 

Mr. Trapani. It has been so long I could not recollect. 

Mr. Rice. Aren't you associated in business with Henry Mills? 

Mr. Trapani. No; I am not. 

Ml-. Rice. You are not associated in business with Henry Mills? 

Mr. Trapani. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that? 

Mr. Trapani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Osmond Litolff? 

Mr. Trapani. I know of him. 

Mr. Rice. Are you associated in business with Litolff? 

Mr. Trapani. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. When did you see him last? 

Mr. Trapani. I really don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you see him? 

Mr. Trapani. On the streets. 

Mr. Rice. What streets? 

Mr. Trapani. Somewhere in — it might have been on Carrolltoiij 
Avenue, near his home. 

Mr. Rice. How long ago was that? 

Mr. Gill. I submit, may it please Your Honor, this is a matter 
of local interest and not pertinent to the inquiry. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Carlos Marcello ? 

Mr. Trapani. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Are you associated in business with Marcello ? 

Mr. Gill. I object, if Your Honor please. 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer on the ground it may tend to in- 
criminate me. 

The Chairman. I will have to ask you to answer the question, 
unless you care to state how that is going to incriminate you. I don't 
know what offense you have in mind ? 

Mr. Gill. I may refer Your Honor to the books of the corporation, 
and at this time I would like to make the books of the corporation 
a part of the examination of this witness, and the books of the corpora- 
tion will be self-explanatory as to why he cannot answer. I say that 
with all deference and respect, may it please the Senator. 

The Chairman. Of course, just being associated in business would — ■- 
I don't see how the answer to that question would incriminate him. 
If the next question were about some matter that might involve a 
Federal offense, then, of course, he would have the right not to answer. 

Mr. Orchard. Wc take the position. Your Honor, it involves both 
Federal and State offenses. With all due deference, of course, on 
that point. 

The Chairman. I overrule you insofar as the State offense is con-, 
cerned. Anyway, let the record show the witness is directed to an-- 
swer that question and refused to do so. 

Let's go on. 

68958— 51— pt. 8 14 



204 ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Were you served with a subpena on behalf of this com- 
mittee ? 

Mr. Gill. I submit, if Your Honor please, that that subpena would 
speak for itself — the original. 

The Chairman. The subpena has been served, and the subpena 
speaks for itself. 

Mr. Rice. Where were you when you were served ? 

Mr. Gill. I object, sir. 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer on the grounds 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true you were in the New Southport gambling 
dub? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer on the grounds 

The Chairman. The record shows he is being directed to answer 
these questions. 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse. 

Mr. Gill. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true you are a partner in the New Southport 
Club? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer on the ground it may tend to in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Rice. And that you are associated in that club with Carlos 
Marcello; your brother, Victor Trapani — by the way, who is Charles 
Trapani ? 

Mr. Trapani. My brother. 

Mr. Rice. He is your brother ? How about James Trapani ? 

Mr. Trapani. My brother. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true that you are associated in New Southport 
Club with those men ? 

Mr. Gill. I object. 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer on the ground that it might tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know George Perez? 

Mr. Trapani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you associated in the club with Perez ? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer on the ground it may tend to in- 
criminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are you associated in business with Perez? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer 

Mr. Gill. Would Your Honor permit 

The Chairman. I am directing your client to answer these ques- 
tions. 

Mr. Gill. And Your Honor will note that if he refuses to answer 
it is on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Are you not associated with Clarence Thomasie? 

Mr. Trapani. Am I not now associated with Clarence Thomasie 
is the question ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Trapani. I am not. 

Mr. Rice. Were you in 1949? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. How does it happen that 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 205 

The Chairman. Where is this New Southport Chib? Can you 
tell us that, Witness ? 

Mr. Trapani. 1 refuse to answer the question, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know where it is ? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. How about Lennie Walter 

Mr. Orchard. He is dead. 

Mr. Rice. How about Lennie Walter? 

Mr. Trapani. He is dead, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Were you associated with him in 1949 ? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer that question. I refuse to answer. 

Mr. Gill. Your Honor, I don't know how your statute of limitations 
runs in 10 or so of the other places where the committee might have 
investigated. The statute of limitations — as I say, we differ in the 
law — in the State courts in Louisiana it runs not from the date of 
the alleged violation; it runs from the date it is made known to a 
prosecuting officer, the judge, district attorney, or sheriff', who has 
authority to institute proceedings. 

I say that so that Your Honor may understand some of the 
objections. 

The Chairman. All right. Let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. Louis Battalamente; do you know him? 

Mr. Trapani. I know of him. 

Mr. Rice. Are you associated in business with him ? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answ^er the question, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, specify what business, Mr. Rice, so we can 

Mr. Rice. Have you been associated in the New Southport Club 
with Louis Battalamente ? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. The same question as to Richard Madere ? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Zack Stickland? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Ben Haley ? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Anthony Marcello? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Joseph Marcello. 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Vincent Marcello. 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a brother, Anthony? 

Mr. Trampani. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Are you associated with him in the New Southport Club ? 

]Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. How about Al Schorling, do you know him ? 

Mr. Trampani. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Are you associated in business with him ? 

Mr. Trampani. I was not. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat? 

Mr. Trampani. No ; I was not. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been associated with Al Schorling in 
business? 



206 ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Trampani. I can't remember being in business with him. 

The Chaieman. All right, let's get on. 

Mr. KiCE. How about Albert J. Salzer? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. How about Edwin Dowty? 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true you are associated in the club wdth Dowty ? 

The Chairman. Is that the New Southport Club you are talking 
about ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice. Floyd Luke ? 

Mr. Orchard. I would like you to fix a time of those associations,. 
Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Rice. 1947, partly. 

Mr, Trapani. I refuse to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Let's get another witness, unless you have some- 
thing else. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF VERNILE CAVALIER, NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY ALCIDE WEYSHAM, ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

Mr. Rice. Have you stated your name for the record ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Vernile Cavalier. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee w^ill be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you live, Mr. Cavalier? 

Mr. Cavalier. 1230 North Galvez. 

Mr. Rice. What is your business ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Insurance business now. 

The Chairman. Insurance business here in the city ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. How long have you been in New Orleans, Mr. Cavalier? 

Mr. Cavalier, All my life. 

Mr. Rice, Have you ever been arrested? 

Mr, Cavalier, Yes. 

Mr. Weyham. Mr. Rice, I don't think that is pertinent. 

The Chairman. Let's get on with the other point. If we want to 
ask him about that, we will. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

Going back to about 3 years ago, what were you doing ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I was employed at Club Forest. 

Mr. Rice. At the Club Forest? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And where is that? 

Mr. Cavalier. 407 Jefferson Highway. 

Mr, Rice, What was the nature of your employment? 

Mr, Cavalier. At that time I was a dice dealer. 

Mr. Rice. You were a dice dealer ? 

Mr, Cavalier, That is right, 

Mr, Rice. When were you first employed by the Club Forest ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME lOST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 207 

Mr. Cavalier. 1945. 

Mr. KiCE. 1945? 

Mr. CAVALraR. That is right. 

Mr. EicE. Who hired you ? 

Mr. Cavalier. IMr. Lawrence Luke ; I met at that time. 

Mr. Rice. You were hired by Lawrence Luke as what? 

Mr. Cavalier. As a dice dealer. 

Mr. Rice. As a dice dealer in the casino ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes, sir. 

INIr. Rice. Were you paid on a salary basis ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Salary basis. 

Mr. Rice. And in your salary were the usual withholding taxes 
deducted ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes; withholding and social-security taxes were 
deducted. 

Mr. Rice. Did you receive any compensation over and above your 
salary ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Did you receive expenses ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, how long did you continue as a dic§, dealer ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I imagine about 314 years. 

Mr. Rice. About 3i^ years. Then what did you do ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, during the time of dealing dice I was also 
relieving the cashier. 

Mr. Rice. You were relieving the cashier ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Were you ever a card dealer ? ^ 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes. 

]Mr. Rice. "Wlien was that ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Between about 1948 and 1949. 

Mr. Rice. 1948 and 1949? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat games did you deal ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Blackjack. 

Mr. Rice. Blackjack. 

The Chairman. Let me ask at this point : Does this club have, or 
did it when you worked there, a horse book and wire service? 

Mr. Cavalier. I believe they did. 

The Chairman. You would know whether it did or not. 

Mr. Cavalier. I was on at night. 

The Chairman. Did they have the equipment for a horse book ? 

Mr. Cavalier. They were equipped for it ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Were you ever there in the afternoon ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Just 1 month when I was on the days. 

Mr. Rice. You were there for a month during the day ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes, 

Mr. Rice. What were you doing during the day ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Managing the blackjack table. 

Mr. Rice. That was in the afternoon ? 

Mr. Cavalier. In the afternoon. . 

Mr. Rice. Was that located in the same room w^here there was a 
horse book operating ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 



208 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Did the horse book receive wire service ? Have a ticker ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I believe they had a ticker, if I am not mistaken. 

Mr. Rice. How were the race results coming in ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I don't know. They would just put it over the loud- 
speaker, the amplifier. 

Mr. Rice. Get the run-down on the races as they went ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And the results immediately from tracks all over the 
country ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, how was the horse book operated ? What did the 
betters do ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, I guess they bet just like any other place, be- 
cause I did not have nothing to do with the race horses. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever make a bet on the horse book while you 
were there ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes. Most likely. That is just common. 

Mr. Rice. What did you do, write your bet out on a slip I 

Mr. Cavalier. No ; I would send it with the porter. 

Mr. Rice. You sent it with the porter ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. After the race was run were you paid immediately ? 

Mr. Cavalter. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. In cash ? 

Mr. Cavalier. The porter would collect it from him. 

Mr. Rice. To enable you to bet the next race ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Wlio was operating the horse book ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I would not kiiow. Most likely the Mills, who are 
the owners of the club. 

Mr. Rice. Mills are the owners? 

Mr. Cavalier. As far as I know. 

Mr. Rice. Which Mills are those ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I believe that is Frank, Arthur, and Henry. 

Mr. Rice. Frank, Arthur, and Henry ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Have you seen them lately ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I haven't seen them in over a year. 

Mr. Rice. Was anyone else associated in the ownership of this club ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, I believe Osmond Litolff. 

The Chairman. Not what you believe. Tell what you know, sir. 

Mr. Cavalier. I was not no executive of the club. I mean, a stock- 
holder. 

Mr. Weysham. May I suggest this, Mr. Rice ? In that case that we 
tried over in Gretna, in the twenty-fourth judicial district court, Mr. 
Schorling stated Frank Mills was the president. I give you the 
transcript. 

Mr. Rice. "Wlio was Mr. Schorling? 

Mr. Cavalier. He was the night manager. 

Mr. Rice. The night manager? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, on the dice games. Wliat were your particular 
duties? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IflST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 209' 

Mr. Cavalier. My duty on the dice table was just to deal to the 
players. 

Mr. Rice. To deal to the players ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr, Rice. Were you in a supervisory job at any time? 

Mr. Cavalier. Only for a period of 3 months. 

Mr. Rice. Three months ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And as supervisor what were your duties ? 

Mr. Cavalier. To see that the game was conducted in an orderly 
manner. 

Mr. Rice. To see that the dice game was conducted. And the other 
dice dealers took care of that ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. How many tables did you watch ? 

Mr. Cavalier. One. 

Mr. Rice. Who was your immediate superior in the dice ? 

Mr. Cavalier. At the time, Mr. Perez. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Perez? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Pete Perez? 

Mr. Cavalier. Pete Perez. 

Mr. Rice. What was his job? 

Mr. Cavalier. He was the manager of the table. 

Mr. Rice. He is the manager of all the tables? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did you have any funds or moneys to use in 
furtherance of your job as the supervisor? 

Mr. Cavalier. No; I did not. 

Mr. Rice. Aiiy expense money available to you? 

Mr. Cavalier. No. 

Mr. Rice. Suppose the player at the dice game wanted a drink or 
a package of cigarettes. How would he arrange for that? 

Mr. Cavalier. We usually would buy them their drinks. 

Mr. Rice. You would buy them their drinks ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. They would not pay for them? 

Mr. Cavalier. No. 

Mr. Rice. Well, how about cigarettes? 

Mr. Cavalier. Sometimes we gave them the cigarettes. 

Mr. Rice. How would that be indicated in the records ? Would you 
show that as an expense, or put a slip in for that ? » 

Mr. Cavalier, I used to sign a slip, but the porters would bring the 
di-inks. All I had to do was sign a slip to show that the drinks were 
given. 

Mr. Rice. What would you put on the slip ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Just my name. 

Mr. Rice. What would you say ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Nothing. I would not say anything. It was written 
out, "1 coke," "1 bottle of beer." 

Mr. Rice. When the ticket came from the restaurant part for a cer- 
tain expense, you would sign the tab and turn it in? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And you assume then it was charged as an expense? 



210 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Cavalier. That is riglit. 

Mr. Rice. Who would you turn that in to? 

Mr. Cavalier. The porter turned that in to the cashier. I didn't 
touch it. 

Mr. Rice. Did you say you operated as a cashier for a time ? 

Mr. Cavalier. As a relief cashier. 

Mr. Rice. For how long? 

Mr. Cavalier. For a period of about 5 months. 

Mr. Rice. What are the duties of a cashier ? 

Mr. Cavalier. All we did was to cash the chips which the players 
brought in exchange for money. 

Mr. Rice. You would cash the chips as the players left? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. You would cash the chips as the players brought them 
in to be cashed ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, as a cashier, would you issue money for any pur- 
poses ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, if the bosses asked for any money we would 
give it to them. 

Mr. Rice. If the bosses asked for money ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Who were the bosses again ? 

Mr..CAVALiER. At that time, Mr. Schorling, Mr. Gallo. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Schorling and Mr. Gallo ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Vic Gallo? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. They were bosses. 

Mr. Cavalier. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Were they managers in the dice games? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, they Avere night managers, I would say. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, they would come to you from time to time for 
money ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And give us an example what they would say when they 
wanted the money? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, they just would come up and say, "Let me liave 
a certain amount of money, and charge it to me." 

Mr. Rice. And charge it to them ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes; whoever it was, Mr. Gallo or Mr. Schorling. 
<Mr. Rice. Now, then, did they ever come up and ask you for any 
money for "ice"? 

Mr. Cavalier. Usually the money which they asked for was for the 
"ice." 

Mr. Rice. It was for the "ice" ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. How do you know that ? i 

Mr. Cavalier. I kept a separate sheet for that. 

Mr. Rice. You kept a separate "ice" sheet? 

.Mr. Cavalier. That is riffht. ■ 



ORGANIZED CRIME IGST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 211 

Mr. Rice. What is "ice" ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, "ice" is most anything you want to call it, what- 
ever they wished to use the money for. 

Mr. Rice. What is it in your words ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, I would not know how to explain that now. 
That is a question there that is really going to be hard to answer. 

Mr. Rice. Was there an ''ice man" that came around? 

Mr. Cavalier. No; there was no ice man. 

Mr. Weinsteix. ]\Ir. Chairman, my name is Robert Weinstein, 624 
Whitney Bank Building, New Orleans, La. 

I represent Al Salzer, who is here today, and Mr. Pete Perez. I 
M^oiild like very much if you, Mr. Chairman, would instruct this wit- 
ness that the rules of perjury apply to the witnesses called by the com- 
mittee as well as the witnesses who might be called, you might say,. 
being investigated. 

The Chairman. All right. AVell, he knows that, anyway, I am sure. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what is your understanding of the "ice" ? Isn't 
that protection? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, it could be that, and it could be expense. 

Mr. Rice. It could be expense ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Operational expense, 

Mr. Rice. It was money, was it not ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And Gallo or Schorling would draw money and they 
would say "ice" ? What would you clo ? 
. Mr. Cavalier. Mark it down under their name, and the amount. 

Mr. Rice. And would you write "ice" there? 

Mr. Cavalier. No; just a separate sheet of paper, blank paper I 
would put their names on it. 

Mr. Rice. On a separate sheet, you would put their names. 

Mr. Cavalier. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Would you indicate what the money was for? 

Mr. Cavalier. No. 

Mr. Rice. Did they run an account for each dice table ? 

Mr. Cavalier. They did. 

The Chairman. Let's get to the amount of it. Are these small 
amounts, large amounts, or what was it? 

Mr. Cavalier. It would be anything from a dollar on up to a. 
thousand. 

The Chairman. You mean you had some cases of a thousand dollars ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. What was the highest amount that you recall? 

Mr. Cavalier. I could not recall the exact figures, but I know it 
was in the thousands. 

Mr. Rice. More than $1,000? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Were there any law-enforcement officers there when one 
of these men called for "ice" ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, the only one time that I recall the man, when 
Paul Cassagne was there. 

Mr. Rice. A man by the name of what ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Paul Cassagne. 

Mr. Rice. Paul Cassagne? Who is he? 



212 ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Cavalier. I believe he is the chief deputy sheriff, Jefferson 
Parish. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know him when you see him ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I know him, but I don't know him personally. 

Mr. Rice. Which one of the men asked you for the "ice'' when 
Cassagne was there? 

Mr. Cavalier. I believe it was Al Schorling. 

Mr. Rice. Do you recall the amount ? 

Mr. Cavalier. No ; I don't. 

Mr. Rice. Do you remember when it was you were relief cashier? 

Mr. Cavalier. No; at night. The time it is I would not know. 

Mr. Rice. What year ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, it had to be in 1949. 

Mr. Rice. 1949. Now, at the time that Cassagne was there when 
Schorling drew down some money for "ice," was it a large amount? 
A thousand dollars or more? 

Mr. Cavalier. It probably was. 

Mr. Rice. It probably was ? 

Mr. Chairman. Tell your best judgment about what it was. 

Mr. Cavalier. Your Honor, I would not know the exact figure. 

Mr. Talbot. Mr. Chairman, I hate to interrupt. I represent Mr. 
'Cassagne. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Cassagne will have an opportunity to 
testify. 

Mr. Talbot. I know, but I think in all fairness this inferential tes- 
timony should not be allowed in this record unless that man can tes- 
tify that he saw some money passed to Mr. Cassagne. 

Mr. Weysham. He can testify to what he knows. 

Mr. Talbot. And not try to smear him. 

The Chairman. Will you take your seat, please ? You have already 
had your say. 

Mr. Weinstein. I want to say something else. 

The Chairman. We will give you an opportunity. 

Mr. Weinstein. Mr. Senator, may I please ask you one thing? 

The Chairman. We will give you an opportunity later on. We 
have a witness here now. 

All right, let's get down to the specific and what happened. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, when Schorling drew the money for the "ice," 
did you see him do anything with it ? 

Mr. Cavalier. No. 

Mr. Rice. Did you see him go any place with Cassagne? 

Mr. Cavalier. No ; he just went in a private office. 

Mr. Rice. With Cassagne? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. He and Cassagne went in a private office? 

Mr. Cavalier. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And how long did they stay there? 

Mr. Cavalier. I really don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Then what happened? 

Mr. Cavalier. Nothing that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Did Cassagne leave or Schorling leave? 

Mr. Cavalier. I didn't see him leave. 

Mr. Rice. You didn't see him after that? 

Mr. Cavalier. No. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 213 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever seen any other law-enforcement officers 
in the Club Forest? 

Mr. Cavalier. No. There were a few deputies around there. 

Mr. Rice. A few deputies around there. Who were they ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I don't know their names. All I know is that they 
are deputy sheriffs. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know their first names ? f 

Mr. Cavalier. No, 

Mr. Rice. How do you know they are deputy sheriffs ? 

Mr, Cavalier. Because they told me they were. 

Mr. Rice. They told you they were ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Would you know them if you saw them? 

Mr. Cavalier. I would know them if I saw them ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. What was their duties? 

Mr. Cavalier. One of them was driving a house car there, and 
another one was a doorman. 

The Chairman. Did they have badges on, or do you remember? 

Mr. Cavalier. No ; they didn't have badges. 

Mr. Rice. Were they on the payroll, as far as you know ? 

Mr. Cavalier. As far as I know they were. 

The Chairman. Well, I must say, the witness says he does not 
know who tliej were. If you can't say who they were, why, I don't 
know how you w-ould know they were on the payroll. 

Mr. Rice. Did they tell you they were being paid there ? 

Mr, Cavalier. They did. 

Mr. Rice. They told you they were being paid ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever seen any law-enforcement officers m there 
who were not employed ? 

Mr. Cavalier. No. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Gus LaCoco ? 

Mr. Cavalier. He was the manager of the restaurant there at 
one time. 

Mr. Rice. At one time. At what time? 

Mr. Cavalier, I believe up to the beginning of 1949. 

Mr. Rice. Up to 1949 ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice, Did you talk to him about his business? 

Mr. Cavalier. He used to tell me a lot about his business. 

Mr. Rice. Did he tell you what his arrangements were with the 
ownership of the club, in connection with his operations? 

Mr, Cavalier, Well, he told me that they allowed him so much 
a month, gave him so much a month to operate the restaurant, and 
he made all the profit on the soft drinks and beer. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, did he have what you might call a con- 
cession ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Most likely it is a concession. 

Mr. Rice. Now, they gave him so much a month to operate? 

Mr. Cavalier. They paid him to operate it. 

Mr. Rice. And he was in complete control of the restaurant phase? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice, And was that payment several hundred dollars? 

Mr. Cavalier. I imagine it was. 



214 ORGANIZED CRIME IK INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Did he pay any rent? 

Mr. Cavalier. No ; he didn't pay any rent. 

Mr. Rice. He didn't pay any rent ? 

Mr. Cavalier. As far as what he told me ; no. 

Mr. Rice. Did they furnish him any employees that he didn't pay t 

Mr. Cavalier. Porters to clean up. 

Mr. Rice. He got porters to clean up ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Any other employees? 

Mr. Cavalier. None. 

Mr. Rice. And he made what profit he could, then, from the restau- 
rant and from the drinl^s, and was paid to run the concession ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And he had no expenses as to rent ? 

Mr. Cavalier. No ; none at all. 

Mr. Rice. Did he tell you whether he was making money or losing 
money under that arrangement ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, I mean he told me that he was doing all right, 

Mr. Rice. That he was doing all right. Was it your understanding^ 
then, that the food concession there was merely as an accommodation 
to lure the players to the establishment ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, suppose someone playing at a dice table ran 
out of money. Would any arrangements be made to cash a check ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, yes, they could arrange and identify them- 
selves and we cashed the check for them. 

Mr. Rice. They would identify themselves. Wlio would be in 
charge of the credit department, or who would be authorized to ? 
, Mr. Cavalier. Mr. Gallo usually took care of that. 

Mr. Rice. Suppose you w^ere operating a table as a supervisor, and 
a player approached you and said, "I would like to get a check cashed" ? 

Mr. Cavalier. If I knew the man I would cash it for him. 

Mr. Rice. You were authorized to do that ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. What would you do with the check ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Just initial it. 

Mr. Rice. Initial it and send him to the cashier ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Up to what amounts were you authorized ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I very seldom went over a hundred dollar check. 

Mr. Rice. Your instructions were if it was a substantial amount to 
refer the man to Mr. Gallo ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Was that done on a number of occasions? 

Mr. Cavalier. Plenty of occasions. 

Mr. Rice. Suppose a player ran out of money while playing and 
indicated he had an item of jewelry that he would like to put up ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, sometimes we use to lend him money on it. 

Mr. Rice. You would lend money on jewelry? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Did that happen many times? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, I imagine so. 

Mr. Rice. Well, what were the arrangements on that? Did they 
have an appraiser? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 215 

Mr. Cavalier. They would just leave their watch or ring, whatever 
it was, and we would lend them the money. If they should call back 
it would be there waiting for them. 

Mr. Rice. Now. who fixed the amount that would be loaned on a 
watch or a ring? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, usually the manager, whatever — he would 
look the watch or ring over and see what it was worth. 

Mr. Rice. How about Mr. Cheramie, did he have anything to do 
with the jewelry? 

Mr. Cavalier. Who is that? 

Mr. Rice. Cheramie. 

Mr. Cavalier. Cheramie? 

Mr. Rice. Yes; Cheramie. 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, yes ; anything valuable. 

Mr. Rice. What would he do? 

Mr. Cavalier. He would talk to the man about it. 

Mr. Rice, And examine it? 

Mr. Cavalier. Examine it. 

Mr. Rice. With a jeweler's glass? 

Mr. Cavalier. I don't think. .^ 

Mr. Rice. Look it over ? ; - 

Mr. Cavalier. Look it over. 

Mr, Rice. Particularly diamonds? * 

Mr. Cavalier. Diamonds or watches. 

Mr. Rice. Now what happened to the customer who put up the 
watch or ring and wanted to redeem it? What arrangements could 
lie make? 

Mr. Cavalier, He could always come back and get it. 

Mr. Rice, He could always come back. 

Mr, Cavalier. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Did they generally do that? 

Mr. Cavalier. They did. 

Mr. Rice, Would he have to put up the full amount to get it back? 

Mr, Cavalier, Full amount; yes. Sometimes they gave it back to 
liim for a little less. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, were these items of jewelry sometimes built 
up in the club to the point where they would have to get rid of them 
in a group, a bunch ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, at one time there they built up and they got rid 
•of them all, 

Mr, Rice, They got so many items of jewelry they had to get rid of 
them. How did they do that ? 

Mr, Cavalier. They just auctioned them off to the employees. 

Mr. Rice. Auctioned them off to the high bidder ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. How many rings and watches would you say were auc- 
tioned off? 

Mr. Cavalier. I would not know because I was not there at the 
time. 

The Chairman. All right ; anything else ? 

Mr. Rice, Now, suppose that a check that a customer gave to the 
club turned out to be returned by the bank for insufficient funds, what 
steps would be taken ? 



216 ORGANIZED CRIME ENT INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, there would be no steps taken. It would just 
be a bad check; that is all. 

Mr, KicE. Did that ever happen ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Plenty of times. 

Mr. Rice. Well, is it true, at least on one occasion, someone who 
gave a bad check was administered a beating for doing that-? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, it was just hearsay. I don't know anything 
about it. 

The Chairman. If you don't know anything about it, don't tell. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did you ever apply for employment at another 
gambling club ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I did at Beverly Country Club. 

Mr. Rice. At the Beverly. When was that? 

Mr. Cavalier. I imagine that was in 1947. 

Mr. Rice. And with whom did you talk about that ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I seen Mr. Kastel at the time. 

Mr. Rice. You talked to Mr. Kastel. And what was the con- 
versation ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, he told me he would let me have the job if 
I got O. K.'d by Paul Cassagne. 

Mr. Rice. If you got an O. K. through Paul Cassagne ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. What did you understand him to mean by that? 

The Chairman. Well, let's see : Did you get an O. K. or did you see 
him about it ? 

Mr. Cavalh^r. I did, but he told me "No."; to stay at Club Forest. 

The Chairman. He told you to stay at Club Forest ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. What reason did he give you ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Because I was not a resident of Jefferson Parish. 

Mr. Rice. Because you were not a resident of Jefferson Parish? 
You were working at Club Forest, but because you were not a resident 
of Jefferson Parish he would not O. K. you to work at the Beverly* 
is that it ? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

The Chairman. I believe the only trouble you have been in was 
something about a lottery, with $200 fine? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

The Chairman. Have you been in any other trouble ? 

Mr. Cavalier. None at all. 

Mr. Rice. You got fined $200? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Did you pay the fine ? Or who paid it I 

Mr. Cavalier. Mr. Cigali paid the fine. 

Mr. Rice. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Cavalier. Tony Cigali ; Anthony. 

The Chairman. How come he paid it ? 

Mr. Cavalier. I was working for him at the time> 

Mr. Rice. Wliere ? 

Mr. Cavalier. New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. Doing what ? 

Mr. Cavalier. A lottery. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

INIr. Rice. How long ago was that ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 217 

Mr. Cavalier. Well, that was just before the war started. I imagine 
in — worked for him for 7 or 8 years up until the time the war started. 
That must be up until about 1941. 

Mr. Rice. Durino; that time he was running a lottery? 

Mr. Cavalier. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right ; thank you, Mr. Cavalier. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF DAVID C. H. FINN, JR., PRESIDENT, LOCAL 410, 
TELEPHONE WORKERS, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. What is your name ? 

Mr. Finn. David C. H. Finn. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Finn. I do. 

The Chairman. Where do you live, Mr. Finn ? 

Mr. Finn. 1823 Congress Street. 

The Chaieman. You are connected with the telephone workers here ? 

Mr. Finn. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. You suggested to Mr. Martin you would like to appear in 
explanation of some testimony given here yesterday that the telephone 
company had told Mayor Morrison that some of these telephones that 
were put in, were not done with their authorization; that it was 
awfully hard to control all of the employees. Is that the substance of 
it? 

Mr. Finn. That is right. 
* The Chairman. And you are representing the employees? 

Mr. Finn. That's right. 

The Chairman. All right ; suppose you tell us about it. 

Mr. Finn. I believe that you have information pertaining to that 
which has been made in photostatic copies. 

Yesterday Mayor Morrison's testimony there stated that employees 
were putting in telephones without the knowledge of the telephone 
company itself. 

The Chairman. Well, I think he said that that was what the tele- 
phone company officials have told him. 

Mr. Finn. Yes. 

You have the photostatic copies before you, and you can see Mr. 
Lackey, who is the commercial district manager in New Orleans. 
His name was on these orders actually worked by the employees. 

You can also notice on such testimony there the employees' names 
who have turned down such orders. 

The Chairman. Suppose I give you these photostats — I can't make 
them out very well — and you tell us. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Do you have the original ? 

Mr. Finn. Yes, sir ; I have the originals. 

The Chairman. You had photostats made for our benefit? 

Mr. Finn. These photostats are kept in order to protect — I mean 
the originals are kept in order to protect the employees, because Mayor 
Morrison at one time when he first came into office stated that he was 
going to rid New Orleans of gambling. Well, at that time two em- 
ployees were fired from the telephone company. The Kef auver com- 
mittee comes along and states that they are going to come to New 



'218 ORGANIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

■Orleans. Anotlier employee is fired — not fired but put on a pension. 
In one of the instances, the first instance I mention, the police had 
no records of making a raid at any place where they were supposed 
to have been putting in phone books ; and at the same time they were 
given orders to put in such phones as that, and in Miami it was agreed 
upon since the employee is in the middle and more or less holding the 
bag by the telephone company to come along whenever they see fit 
to maybe throw in the eyes of the public some good relations, that 
someone is discriminated against in the telephone company; one of 
the workers. So it was agreed upon, if the workers came in putting 
in some line, which is more or less the installers, if they surmised that 
it was going to be used as a bookie then they would turn such orders 
down. 

Yesterday in the papers, I understand, management of the telephone 
company stated that their attorneys told them that they haven't the 
right to turn clown such orders. Now it has been agreed upon with the 
union that the employees would have such a right as that. 

The Chairman. Whose agreement? You mean the union agreed 
to it? 

Mr. Finn. We wanted to make sure our employees would have some 
protection, because they were being left open to the discrimination 
of themselves by management at their whims. 

The Chaikman. In other words, in your union you have decided 
that where you have the suspicion it was going to be used for gambling 
purposes you just refused to put the telephone in. 

Mr. Finn. Until they have the signature of the commercial repre- 
sentative or the authority from some source in management. 

The Chairman. Suppose you go through those photostats one by 
.one and mark them, the first one "Exhibit 1" and tell what that is. 

Mr. Finn. Exhibit 1 is Audubon 6212. 

The Chairman. Mark it on the back. 

Mr. Finn. "Turned down at 2 o'clock on April 29, 1949, by B. 
Stewart." It was later approved by Mr. Harry B. Lackey. It was at 
Fatso's Bar, 3305 Dumaine Street. Whether this is a bookie or not, 
I don't know. That is an approval. 

The Chairman. In other words, B. Stewart didn't want to put the 
telephone in unless he got a direct order? 

Mr. Finn. That is right, approved by management. 
• The Chairman. What is the next one ? 

Mr. Finn. The next one is marked "Finn-2." At Jim's Plaza Club 
at Kenner, La. It was a direct line and they don't have the man that 
. turned it clown, but it was later approved by Mr. Harry B. Lackey, of 
the telephone company, commercial manager for this area. 

The Chairman. The next one is exhibit 3. Let's tell briefly what 
it is. 

Mr. Finn. 3 is, it just says, a restaurant at 3001 Metairie, Jefferson 
Highway. This was also turned down by the employee and at a later 
date approved by Harry B. Lackey. 

The CiiAiRiMAN. Which employee do you see? 

Mr. Finn. Some of them, tliey didn't put their names on it. This 
was the 9th, the 11th — September 11. 

Mr. Rice. How many installations were there on that? 

Mr. Finn. This is a direct line. 

Mr. Rice. Just one? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 219 

ISfr. Finn. Yes. 

The Chairman. The next is exhibit 4. Let's see what that is. 

Mr. Finn. 4 has been turned down by Mr. Hazard and Roloff; 
Temple 5951, Pahnisano Riding Chib, No. 12 River Road, Jefferson 
Parish, La. It was later approved by Mr. Harry B. Lackey. 

The Chairman. What is exhibit 5 ? 

Mr. Finn. Exhibit 5 is a letter to the employee. It is dated New 
Orleans, La., December 7. It troes on, and a copy has been sent to Mr. 
M. H. Gaston, manager. Temple plant group ; also a copy to Mr. W. T. 
Archer, supervisor, district. New Orleans, La. ; Mr. Prentiss Landers, 
district plant manager. New Orleans, La. 

Order 1-256768, DD12-11. Ledners Restaurant, 1101 Jefferson Highway— 

a direct line — 

This will be your authority to make the above installation. An affidavit has 
been secured from Mr. L. J. Luke, who will operate a business at the above 
address, certifying telephone facilities and the installation will not be used in 
the operation of a handbook, nor for the dissemination of racing information. 

The Chairman. What brought that about? 

Mr. Finn. Well, one of these orders like this were turned down. 
This is the new style that is coming out now. Tliey were writing 
letters to the employees themselves to have it put in. They used to have 
it approved. 

The Chairman. The installation had been turned down and they 
ordered the employees to put it in ; saying that an affidavit had been 
secured. 

Mr. Finn. That is right. 

The Chair:max. All right. 

And the exhibit 6. Don't read it, but just tell what it is. 

Mr. Finn. It is the same thing as this one of five. 

The Chairman. In other words, Mr. Finn, your testimony is that 
wherever t'here is a representative of the union — are you an officer 
of the union ? 

Mr. Finn. I am the president of the local ; that is right. 

The Chairman. Wliat is the local ? 

Mr. Finn. 410. 

The Chairman. That instruction to all your members is that if they 
have any grounds to believe it is going to be used for any illegal pur- 
poses, "Don't put the telephone in unless you secure a direct order." 
Is that it? 

Mr. Finn. That is right. W^ith the approval of the higher-ups in 
management. 

The Chairman. And you think that your members have to the best 
of tlieir ability followed out that instruction ? 

Mr. Finn. That is right. 

]\Ir. Rice. And you have these specific cases to prove where that 
has been done ? 

Mr. Finn. That is right. 

The Cpiairman. I think that is a very good service you are doing 
on behalf of your union. I congratulate you on it. I am glad you. 
have come here to tell us about it. 

Mr. Finn. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. Give those to the reporter. 

68958— 51— pt. 8 15 



220 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

(The documents were marked "Exhibit No. 18," and are on file 
with the committee.) 
(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES BROCATO (JIMMY MORAN), NEW ORLEANS, 
LA., ACCOMPANIED BY SAM MONK ZELDEN, ATTORNEY, NEW 
ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chaikman. Mr. Moran, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I do. 

The Chairman. What is your name ? 

Mr. Zelden. Zelden, Z-e-1-d-e-n ; Sam Monk Zelden. 

The Chairman. You are representing Mr. Moran ? 

Mr. Zelden. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. We are not advertising your restaurant, but this 
is an attractive card you have here. 

Mr. Moran. Thank you, sir. It is a calendar. 

The Chairman. Some of my associates said they went down there 
and it is very good. 

Mr. Moran. It is "Food for Kings." 

The Chairman. 809 St. Louis Street, New Orleans. 

Mr. Moran. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. We want to get down to the essential matters now. 

Mr. Eice. What is your true name ? 

Mr. Moran. My name is James Brocato. 

Mr. Rice. James Brocato? 

JSIr. Moran. Yes, sir. 

INIr. Rice. I see. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Moran. New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. And you have been here all your life ? 

Mr. Moran. Every clay of my life ; every Christmas of my life. 

Mr. Rice. Ever do any fighting? 

Mr. Moran. Boxing. 

Mr. Rice. Under what name? 

Mr. Moran. Jimmy Moran. 

Mr. Rice. How far did you go ? 

Mr. Moran. Well, I boxed for 6 or T years. 

Mr. Rice. Did you get to the championship ? 

Mr. Moran. No ; just 15 rounds. 

The Chairman. What weight were you ? 

Mr. Moran. Well, I started at 22 and stopped at 58 ; 122 and 158 ; 
middleweight. 

Mr. Rice. What do you weigh now ? 

Mr. Moran. 212. 

Mr. Rice. Did there come a time when you became associated with 
the Louisiana Mint Co.? 

]\Ir. Moran. Let's see. That was around in 1935 ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Moran. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And what business was that? 

Mr. Moran. I was friendly with Brainard 

Mr. Rice. Yes? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 221 

Mr. MoRAN. And we were very good friends. In fact, we used to 
go fishing and hunting together. 

The Chairman. Who was that ? I didn't understand you. 

Mr. IMoRAN, Brainard. 

Mr. Rice. Brainard ; he is dead now ? 

Mr. Mohan. Yes, sir. He died in 1937, late in 1937; the summer; 
June. 

Mr. Zeldeist. INIr. Rice, I think you confused something there. You 
mentioned the Louisiana Mint Co. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Zelden. You mentioned 1935 ? 

The CHAiRMAisr. That was the Bayou Novelties. 

Mr. Rice. Were j'ou in the Bayou or the Pelican Co. ? 

Mr. jMoran. That was later. 

Mr. Rice. 1934? 

Mr. MoRAN. The first one I was a partner of Mr. Brainard. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us when you first got into any business with Frank 
Costello. 

Mr. MoRAN. I wasn't in any business with Costello. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't he interested in one of those companies ? 

Mr. jMoran. I think he was. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't that put you in business with him ? 

Mr. Moran. With Brainard. 

Mr. Chairman. Suppose you see how we get along this way: Mr. 
Moran, you are here ; you appear to want to be cooperative. 

Mr. MoRAx. Yes, sir. 

The CnAiRMAx. Suppose you just start out with your dealing in 
the vending machines with the Mint Co., or whatever it was, and tell 
when you got started and what your situation was and what hap- 
j)ened about it. 

Mr, Zeldex. Senator, can I just make this one suggestion? Mr. 
Moran has come here for the express purpose of cooperating to the 
best of his ability. 

The Chairmax. A little louder. 

Mr. Zeldex. Mr. Moran has come here for the express purpose of 
cooperating to the best of his ability. 

The Chairmax. AVe appreciate that. We are glad to have some- 
body who wants to cooperate occasionally. 

Mr. Zeldex. I believe it would be much easier for Mr. Moran, in- 
stead of making a monolog or discussing about himself, if you would 
ask questions. 

The Chairmax. All right. I thought the other way we would ge^ 
at it better, but if 3^011 would rather we just ask questions, all right. 

Mr. Zeldex. Yes, sir. 

The Chairmax. Then go ahead, Mr, Rice. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. When did you first become associated with 
Frank Costello? 

Mr. MoRAx. Well, I was not in business with Mr. Costello; my 
partner was. 

Mr. Rice. When did you first meet him ? 

Mr. MoRAx. I met Mr. Costello in 1932-33 ; in that year. 

Mr. Rice. Where was that? 

Mr. MoRAx, Id New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. What wa/^ he doing then ? 



222 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MoRAN. I was introduced to him by Mr. Brainard. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Then you had a partnership with Mr. 
Brainard ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And he had an interest in the Pelican Novelty Co.; 
Bayou Novelty and the Louisiana Mint ? 

Mr. Zelden. That is not true. That is not true. 

Mr. Rice. What is the story then ? What is the situation ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Brainard died in 1937. 

Mr. Zelden. There is no attempt on my part to clog up this rec- 
ord 

Mr. Rice. And when Brainard died you took over his interest, did 
you not ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Oh no, no, no. Everything stopped* 

Mr. Rice. Everything stopped ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Louisiana Mint kept going along after 1937? 

Mr. MoRAN. Oh, no. 

Mr. Rice. When did it stop according to you ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I think around September. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Did you ever have an interest in the company 
separate from Mr. Brainard? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. IVliat was the business of the company ? 

Mr. MoRAN. They had a mint machine. 

Mr. Rice. He had a mint machine ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't it a slot machine ? 

Mr. MoRAN. It paid off in mints. 

Mr. Rice. Did it pay off in anything else? 

Mr. Zeldex. I believe that the witness is somewhat confused by 
your questions. He doesn't know whether you are referring to the 
Louisiana Mint Co., the Bayou or Pelican Novelty Co. 

Mr. Rice. I am talking about the Louisiana Mint Co. 

Mr. Zelden. The company that started in 1942. Is that right ? 

Mr. Rice. Right. Did you draw a salary from Louisiana Mint ? 

Mr. Zelden. Louisiana JSIint. Now, that is the last company. 

Mr. MoRAN. The last company? 

The Chairman. Let's get these straight. The first company was 
the Bayou Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Zelden. Tlie first one. 

The Chairman. Which was incorporated back in 1935. Mr, G. R. 
Brainard was either one of the partners or one of the principal stock- 
holders, and you were his partner in that? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, Senator. 

The Chairman. Although he appeared of record, you were hia 
partner ? 
~ Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

The CHAiR]NrAN. You come along, and the next thing is the Pelican 
Novelty, 2(501 Chartres Street, which took over the work of the Bayou 
Novelty Co., and G. R. Brainard was first a partner in that and he 
passed away? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

The Chaieman^. You were his partner in that? 



OBGANiZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 223 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When he died you took over his interest? 

Mr. MoRAN. No. Everything folded np. 

The CiiAiRMAiSr. Well, you appear to be still in the — then the next 
company was the Louisiana Mint Co. 

Mr. JNIoRATsT. Yes. I got a salary in the next one. 

The Chairman. What is that? ' 

:Mr. MoRAN. I did. 

The Chairjman. Then the next one is the Louisiana Mint Co., and 
you appear to be in that, too. 

Mr. MoRAisr. In both. One was as a partner, and one on a salary. 

The CirAiRMATsr. You were a partner in the Pelican Novelty Co.? 

Mr. INIoRAN. The first one. 

Mr. Rice. When? 

The Chairman. When the Louisiana Mint Co. came along you got a 
salary ? 

Mr. JMoRAN. I think so. 

The Chairman. You sold out your stock interest? 

Mv. ]Moran. I didn't sell nothing. I didn't have anything to sell. 

The Chairman. Anyway, you. got a salary ? 

Mr. M0R.A.N. Yes, sir. 

The Chairinian. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, Mr. Brainard died when ? About when ? 

Mr. MoRAN. 1937; late '37. 

Mr. Rice. Did you continue on in the Louisiana Mint Co. ? 

Mr. MoRAN. That is the second company? 

Mr. Rice. The last one. 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And you continued on in that company until when ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Until the end. 

Mr. Rice. Until the end. When was the end? 

Mr. MoRAN. Well, right offhand 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't it 1945? 

The Chairman. 1946, I believe. 

Mr. Rice. 1946? 

Mr. MoRAN. I believe around that time. 

Mr. Rice. Now, during that time, what was your interest? Were 
you a partner? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Were you an employee? 

Mr. MoRAN. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What was your job? 

Mr. MoRAN. Good will. 

Mr. Rice. Good will ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, in your job as a good-will ambassador, shall we 
say, what were your duties specifically ? 

Mr. MoRAN. My duties? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. MoRAN. To see locations. 

Mr. Rice. What do you mean, locations? 

Mr. MoRAN. Where we have a mint machine, see that it was kept 

right. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat does this mint machine look like ? 



224 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MoRAN. Well, you put a coin in and a mint would drop out, the 
same as you go into a cigar stand and buy a roll of mints. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Now you put the coin in and the mint drops out 'i 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

M'r. Rice. All right. Is there a handle on it ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What do you do with the handle ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Pull it ; it's good exercise. [Laughter.] 

Mr. Rice. Now, when you went to a location, as you say, what 
would be the proposition that you would offer the proprietor? 

Mr. MoRAN. I never talked to the proprietor. 

Mr. Rice. Well, how would you place the machines ? 

Mr. MoRAX. I report if the machine was not looking good, it needed 
cleaning, to the office, and go to another spot. 

Mr. Rice. You would take a look at it ? 

Mr. MoRAN. That is all. 

M'r. Rice. And say it was not looking good ? 

Mr. MoRAN. That is right. "Brush it up ; it needs more mints." 

Mr. Rice. Did you do anything about finding new places to place 
the machine ? 

Mr. MoRAN". Well, the agents took care of that. 

Mr. Rice. Who was the agent? 

Mr. MoRAN. Different boys. 

Mr. Rice. Do you remember any of them ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I mean I would know them if I would see them. 

Mr. Rice. Was Frank Costello in that company with you? 

Mr. MoRAN. Frank Costello, he was in the company. I think he 
was one of the bosses. 

Mr. Rice. How about Phil Kastel? 

Mr. MoRAN. He was one of the bosses. 

Mr. Rice. Who were your other bosses ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Geigerman. 

Mr. Rice. Geigerman? 

Mr. MoRAN. That is all. 

Mr. Rice. Who paid you? 

Mr. MoRAN. I got an envelope from the office. 

Mr. Rice. Was the envelope in cash? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Were you on a salary ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you also have a percentage? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You were paid a straight salary ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How often would you receive that ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Monthly. 

Mr. Rice. Once a month ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. All right. That continued until 1946 ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Until the end, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Until the end ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, did you ever work for a wire service, or news 
service ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME m INTERSTATE COMMERCE 225 

Mr. MoR;\N. Yes, sir; for Mr. Fogarty. 

Mr. Rice, When did you start with Mr. P^ogarty? 

Mr. MoRAN. Oh, I don't know. It didn't last long. 

Mr. Rice. Was it before Poretto came ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Poretto? I don't know Poretto. I know Poretto. I 
know Mr. Poretto, but I don't know Poretto as being in the service. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. When you first started to go into business with Mr. 
Fogarty 

Mr. MoRAN. I didn't go in business with him. He employed me. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Was that about 1944 ? 

Mr. MoRAN. 194-4? No, No; it was later. 1944? Wait a while. 
I am thinking about 1934, maybe. 

Mr. Zelden. If you don't know 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't remember exactly. 

Mr. Rice. What was the name of the company Mr. Fogarty had? 
Daily Sports News ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Something like that. 

Mr. Rice. Where was it located, where was the office ? 

]\Ir. MoRAN. It is one of the buildings 

Mr. Rice. Baiter Building? 

Mr. MoRAN. Baiter Building ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. "VVliat were you engaged to do by Mr. Fogarty ? 
. Mr. MoRAN. Well, for instance, walk into a place and they were 
booking 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir? 

Mr. MoRAN. And they were getting information from another serv- 
ice. In other words, I told him for a short amount of money he could 
get it direct. I would tell Mr. Fogarty. He would send someone in 
to see him. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, when you walked into a place and they were 
booking you would tell them that they could get it some place else? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. There was only one wire service then, wasn't there? 

Mr. MoRxVN. I don't know. There were two or three. 

Mr. Rice. What did Mr. Fogarty hire you to do ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Exactly what I am telling you. 

Mr. Rice. To walk into a handbook ? 

Mr. ISIoRAN. In other words, instead of relaying one, paying one, 
and telephoning in to another book, they would get it direct for a 
short amount of money. 

Mr. Rice. Oh, I see. So if they were receiving their news over a 
telephone you would tell them they could get their news direct on a 
telegraph wire or ticker. Is that right ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't know if it was a ticker or what. 

Mr. Rice. Or a wire of some kind. 

Mr. MoiLVN. Right. 

Mr. Rice. And what was the cost of those ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't remember. It was in the neighborhood of $30, 
$35, or $40. 

Mr. Rice. $35 a week? 

Mr. MoRAN. It depends. 

Mr. Rice. For a direct wire? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes, sir. 



226 ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. How -would you find where these handbooks were run- 
ning? 

Mr. MoRAN (laughing). I know this courtroom is in here. I know 
there is an office next door. If you are a man-about-town you know 
everything that is happening. 

Mr. Rice. Very easy, wasn't it? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, were you paid a straight salary for that? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Paid a straight weekly salary? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, did there come a time when a competitive 
operation was started here, that you were having trouble with cus- 
tomers? Poretto was taking them away? 

Mr. MoRAN. It didn't last long. 

Mr. Rice. What happened? 

Mr. MoRAN. I wasn't connected — in other words, I wasn't con- 
nected with Mr. Fogarty too long. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. MoRAjsr. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. But you were in 1946 when this happened. 

Mr. MoRAN. If that is the year. 

Mr. Zelden. Be sure of what you are saying. The man, in 1946 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't know just the time it happened. I don't know 
the years. 

Mr. Rice. It was August 1946, according to the previous testi- 
mony. 

Mr. MoRAN. Whatever the records show there; that is the year. 

Mr. Rice. You remember when that happened, wiien the Poretto 
thing started ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't know of Poretto being in the service. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know of another service starting up ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No. No, I don't know. I don't bet on horses, only 
when I go to the track ; I never made a bet in a book in my life. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir ; except at the track. . 

Mr. Zelden. Under oath? 

Mr. MoRAN. Under oath is correct. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. You were interested in getting customers 
for the Daily Sports News? 

• Mr. MoRAN. I've got to do something, Mr. Rice, to earn a salary. 
People don't pay 

Mr. Rice. Yes. What we want to know is, what happened when 
this competitive service came here. 

Mr. MoRAN. I only knew one : Mr. Fogarty. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Wasn't there another one — Trans- America ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't know, sir. It only lasted a short while ; what- 
ever the record shows, when I was on the payroll. 

Mr. Rice. What do you mean "it" only lasted ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I was. 

Mr. Rice. You only lasted a short while? 

Mr. MoRAN. I got out of it. 

Mr. Rice. You got out of it. 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 227 

Mr. Rice. Wliat was the reason for getting out of it? 

Mr. MoRAN. Food for Kings. I opened a place. 

Mr. Rice. Is it true that you still receive money from Fogarty — 
the wire service? 

Mr. MoRAN. Do I still receive it ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. IMoRAN. Oh, no, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. How many years ago did you stop receiving it? 

Mr. MoRAN. How many years? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. MoRAN. It didn't last that long. Mr. Rice, you are telling me 
now if I still receive money ? 

The Chairman. He was asking you if you do. 

Mr. Mor.\.n, You know what I mean. I am trying to be right; 
I am trying to give it to you right, but don't cross me up and tell 
me I still receive it. I haven't seen Mr. Fogarty for years until 
yesterday. 

Mr. Rice. What were the circumstances of your leaving Mr. Fogarty 
and when was it? 

Mr. MoRAN. Mr. Rice, it lasted until things got a little tough ; you 
go and get a job; you're going to do better for yourself; you leave 
that job, and you get connected somewhere else; and the next connec- 
tion was the Food for Kings. 

The Chairman. Well, as I understand it, you were with Mr. 
Fogarty 1944, 1945, 1946. 

' Mr. MoRAN. Whatever it was, Mr. Senator; yes, sir. I don't know; 
whatever it was. 

The Chairman. About 3 years ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes. 

The Chairman. Were you there with him at the time his place 
was raided and the wires were taken out? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

The Chairman. I mean, were you working for him about that 
time ? Do you remember that ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't remember that; no, sir. I don't think so. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Do you own a station wagon ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Does that have a siren ? 

Mr. MoRAN. A siren ? 

Mr. Rice. A siren. 

Mr. MoRAN. Xow, wait a while. I don't 

Mr. Zelden. Do you know what a siren is ? 

Mr. MoRAN. A siren — I have, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You have a station wagon with a siren? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you get the siren on the station wagon? 

Mr. MoRAN. It was put in by a mechanic for a signal when my guide 
is down at my hunting camp at the edge of a farm called Harlem 
Plantation, and my hunting camp is 2 miles to the back. I drive 
up to the back levee ; I put the siren on with my motor running, and 
20 minutes later here comes the guide with the boat to pick me up. 
That's the signal. 



228 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE ' 

Mr. Rice. Where did you get that siren ? 

Mr. MoRAN. By a mechanic. 

Mr. Rice. What mechanic? 

Mr. MoRAN. Well, right offhand I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Where did you find him ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Someone brought him to me. 

Mr. Rice. Someone brought him to you ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't he a mechanic on the police department? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't think so ; no. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible that he was ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Everything is possible. 

Mr. Rice Yes. 

Mr, MoRAN. Everything is possible. 

Mr. Rice. Very possible. Let's find out about the siren now. 
Didn't the siren come from the police department? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who did you deal with? 

Mr. MoRAN. With this mechanic. 

Mr. Rice. What is his name ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't know ; it's happened 3 years ago. 

Mr. Rice. Who brought him to you ? 

Mr. Moitf^N. I don't remember. 

Mr. Rice. Didn't it come off of a detective's car out of the police 
garage ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. * 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't know. I paid this mechanic $35. 

Mr. Rice. Thirty-five dollars? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right here. sir. 

Mr. Rice. Could you find him ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I wouldn't know him if I would see him here. 

Mr. Rice. And you don't know where he is located now ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure he was not employed as a policeman — police 
mechanic ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, no. No connection at all. 

Mr. Rice. Now sir, j^ou spoke about this Harlem Plantation. Is 
that your place ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, I have it leased. 

Mr. Rice. You have it leased. What is it — a hunting and fishing 
place ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir ; hunting and fishing. 

Mr. Rice. Did Frank Costello ever come down there? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did Kastel ever come down there? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

]\Ir. Rice. Charlie Fischetti ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Charlie Fischetti ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Fischetti ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 229 

Mr. MoRAN. Right off-hand I don't think so. 

Mv. Rice. From Chicago. 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir. I have been to Chicago twice in my life. 

Mr. Rice. How about Rocco Fischetti ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, sir ; I don't. Now, I have heard of these people. 
I know of these people. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Did Carlos Marcello ever come down there ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Many times ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Well, about twice a year; maybe six or seven times in 
the last 5 years. 

Mr. Rice. Marcello's brothers come down there ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Two of his brothers ; right. 

Mr. Rice. Which two. 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't know right off-hand. 

Mr. Rice. Anthony ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I don't know. I didn't know he had five or six brothers. 
I met them yesterday. 

Mr. Rice. When you were working for Fogarty were two of the 
Marcellos working over there at the same time ? 

Mr. MoRAN. I didn't see nobody but Mr. Fogarty. 

Mr. Rice. Fogarty is the only one you saw ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about Mr. Cigali ? Did he ever come down to 

Mr. MoRAN. My place? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes ; I think he was down there one time for dinner. 

Mr. Rice. How about Litolff? 

Mr. MoRAN. Litolff. 

Mr. Zelden. If you know who he is talking about, answer it. 

Mr. MoRAN. Right offhand, I don't. 

Mr. Rice. Osmond Litolff. 

Mr. MoRAN. I think I know him. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Did he ever come down to your place ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes ; he was a major, or something, in the Navy during 
the last war. 

Mr, Rice. When I am speaking of "your place" I am talking about 
the "plantation." 

Mr. MoRAN. No, no. You are talking about my place; I am talk- 
ing about the restaurant. Are you talking about my hunting camp ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. MoRAN. No, no. These people have never been there. 

Mr. Rice. Marcello has never been there ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No, no. I misunderstood you. I thought you were 
talking about the restaurant. Now, as far as my hunting camp, I can 
tell you everybody that comes there. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir ; tell us. 

Mr. MoRAN. Right offhand, I know everybody. Robert Newmann, 
Dr. Tamborelli. Mayor Morrison often, Mr. Weiss. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Mr. Weiss? 

Mr. MoRAN. Seymour Weiss, owner of the Roosevelt Hotel. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where is this hunting camp ? , 



230 ORGANIZED CRIME LN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. MoRAN. At Harlem Plantation, on the back on Hostile Canal. 

The CHAiRMAisr. How far out of town is it ? 

Mr. MoRAN. About 40 miles. 

The Chairman. Is it a big plantation — many acres? 

Mr. MoRAN. No ; one room, with a little bedroom. 

The Chairman. You have a lot of boats there ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Pirogues ; yes, sir ; 25 or 30 of them. 

The Chairman. What do you hunt down there ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Ducks and geese, rabbits. 

The Chairman. All right. Anything else? 

Mr. MoRAN. It's very nice. 

Mr. Rice, Do you know anyone from over in Tampa, Fla.? 

Mr. MoRAN. Tampa. I get a lot of business out of every State. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know "Red" Italiano? 

Mr. MoRAN. "Red" Italiano? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. MoRAN. "Red" Italiano. 

Mr. Rice. The man from Tampa that had the Cadillac car they 
had the picture in the paper about. 

Mr. MoRAN. If it is the man I know, he's an Italian 

Mr. Rice. That's right. 

Mr. MoRAN. And he comes in my place, maybe twice or three times 
a year. 

Mr. Rice. He was in there fairly recently, wasn't he? 

Mr. MoRAN. In my place? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. MoRAN. I believe this winter ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. This winter? 

Mr. MoRAN. Right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. While he was being sought by this committee over in 
Tampa, I believe? 

Mr. MoRAN. Oh, I don't know. Mr. Italiano, if that is the man; he 
was in my place. 

Mr. Rice. Have you seen him lately ? 

Mr. MoRAN. This winter ; way before the holidays. 

Mr. Rice. Just before Christmas ? 

Mr. MoRAN. Before the holidays. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you have any interest in Peter Herman's night 
iclub ? That wasn't your business ? 

Mr. MoRAN. No dealings at all. 

The Chairman. You had no dealings with him? 

Mr. MoRAN. No anythings. 

The Chairman. Anything else, Mr. Rice? 

Mr. Rice. No. 

Mr. MoRAN. Senator, sometime you come down and make a hunt 
with me. You will see game like you never saw in your life. 

The CHAiR]vrAN. I have an invitation to a hotel in Chicago and one 
at Key West. 

Mr. MoRAN. Mine is in the rough, but it will be all right. 

The Chairman. Now, your's is a good hunting place. 

Mr. MoRAN. Yes; fine. 

The Chairman. Hunt down there and eat at Food for Kings. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 231 

: Mr. MoRAN. No, no ; I'll be your private cook when you hunt with 
me. 

The Chairman. All right. 
Thank you very much, Mr. Moran. 
(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF SHERIFF GILBERT OZENNE, NEW IBERIA, LA., 
ACCOMPANIED BY G. W. GILL AND WILLIAM C. ORCHARD, 
ATTORNEYS, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. Mr. Ozenne, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you will give this connnittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Ozenne. I do. 

Mr, Gill. If Your Honor please, just in excess of caution — this 
gentleman is going to be very cooperative — we beg to invoke the same 
defense to proceeding as we have for the other witnesses we hav& 
represented, including the last witness, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Let the record show out of an excess 
of caution, counsel for the sheriff make the same objections as they 
have for their other clients they have represented. 

Mr, Gill. Lack of quorum, and all the other grounds. ^ 

The Chairman, Mr. G. W. Gill and Mr. William C. Orchard 
represent Sheriff Ozenne. They say he is going to be more coopera- 
tive than some of the other witnesses. 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir; I have known this gentleman for about 20* 
years, if Your Honor please. We come from the same section of 
the country up there. 

Tlie Chairman. If we can keep you lawyers around for the after- 
noon maybe we can get some real cooperation. 

Mr, EiCE. Mr. Ozenne, you are the sheriff of what parish? 

Mr. Ozenne. Iberia Parish. 

Mr. Rice. You are appearing here in response to a telephone call 
made to you last night by the committee ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir ; how long have you been sheriff there ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Eleven years. 

Mr. Rice. Eleven years. And you have lived there all your life? 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us what the situation is in New Iberia with respect 
to slot machines and gambling. 

Mr. Gill. Gentlemen, I just wonder — the gentleman will answer 
anything you ask him. Don't j^ou think it might be better just to 
put the questions ? You know better what you want to know, I think. 

The Chairman. Counsel thought he would be getting at it quicker. 
He read what Mr. Moity said yesterday; if he wants specific ques- 
tions asked, we will do it that way. 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do slot machines run in New Iberia ?' 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do they pay off in cash ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How long has that been going on ? 

Mr. Ozenne. To my recollection, about 30 years.. 



232 OEGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EiCE. How many slot machines, would you say, are running 
in the town ? 

Mr. OzENNE. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. EiCE. In your county. 

Mr. OzEENE. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. More than a thousand ? 

Md. OzENNE. I wouldn't think so. 

Mr. Rice. More than a hundred. 

The Chairman. Can we say there are a lot of them ? 

Mr. OzENNE. There are a few of them ; not a lot. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Are these in public places ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is that against the law ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. Well, we have the law in the record. Is it against 
the law, Sheriff? Do you know? 

Mr. Gill. Well 

Mr. Rice. Let the witness answer. 

Mr. Gill. I would like to make an objection there because the State 
collects a hundred dollars' tax ; it is sort of a hiatus, Mr. Rice. The 
State collects a hundred dollars' tax for it. 

The Chairman. Let the sheriff state his position about the matter. 
What is your position about whether it is legal or illegal? 

Mr. Ozenne. Well, I understand it is against the law, but they have 
them all over the State. 

The Chairman. That is a fair answer. 

Mr. Rice. Do they have them in the city of New Orleans ? 

Mr. Ozenne. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. But they have them all over the State? 

Mr. Ozenne. That I know of ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, do they have them in Jefferson Parish ? 

The Chairman. Let's confine the sheriff's testimony to his parish. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. How about horse books, handbooks ? Do 
they have those in New Iberia ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. No bankbooks there? 

Mr. Ozenne. No book that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Any other form of gambling there, gambling casinos? 

Mr. Ozenne. I understand they have race-horse machines, 

Mr. Orchard. Pinballs. 

Mr. Rice. You mean the one-ball ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. How do those work ? Do they pay off in cash ? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How do they pay off? 

Mr. Ozenne. I wouldn't know, sir. It is just a pinball machine. 
They don't pay nothing. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know how they pay off ? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is there prostitution in New Iberia? 

Mr. Ozenne. They have. 

Mr. Rice. Do they have restricted zones ? 

Mr. Ozenne. They have. 



ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 233 

Mr. Rice. What are the arrangements there for that ? 

Mr. OzENNE. Well, when I was elected sheriff there was, just like 
they are now, in certain localities of the town, and they are still at 
the same zone. 

Mr. EiCE. In certain localities of the town it is all right to practice 
prostitution ? 

ISIr. OzENNE. I don't know if it is all right. They have been there 
for years. 

Mr. Rice. They have been there for years ? 

Mr. OzENNE. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You have done nothing to change that situation, have 
you ? 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is that against the law ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. Well, if you know whether it is or not. 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir ; I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know whether that is against the law or not. 
Is that your answer ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. I didn't hear your answer. 

Mr. OzejSTNe. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Let's get on. That's what he said. 

Mr. Orchard. He didn't know. 

Mr. Rice. How about narcotics? Are narcotics sold down there, 
or marijuana? • 

Mr. Ozenne. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Has anyone ever been arrested there for selling narcotics? 

Mr. Ozenne. Not that I know of ; not in my presence. 

Mr. Rice. Is it against the law to sell narcotics ? 

Mr. Ozenne. It is, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know a man by the name of Sliman? 

Mr. Ozenne. There are a few Slimans. Which one? 

Mr. Rice. How about Camille? Do you know him? 

Mr. Ozenne. I know^ him. 

Mr. liicE. Is he related to you ? 

Mr. Ozenne. He is my son-in-law. 

Mr. Rice. And has he ever been arrested for a narcotic violation ? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mv. Rice. Has any of your relatives ever been arrested for that ? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Not that you know of. 

Now, do you have a brother-in-law who is in the slot-machine 
business? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. A son-in-law? 

Mr. Rice. Is that the same son-in-law? What's his name? 

Mr. Ozenne. Camille Sliman ? 

Mr. Rice. Camille Sliman, He's in the slot-machine business? 

Mr. Ozenne. Him and his brothers ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What is his brother's name? 

Mr. Ozenne. Teddy Sliman. 

Mr. Rice. There is another brother besides that ? 



234 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. OzENNE. Fred Sliman. 

Mr. Rice. And they are all in the slot-machine business ? 

Mr. OzENNE. I don't know how they are. I see it is the Sliman Bros. 
Amusement Co. on their little truck. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Who owns the Moulin Rouge down there? 

Mr. Ozenne. The Sliman brothers. 

Mr. Rice. What is the Moulin Rouge ? 

Mr, OzEXNE. It's just a night club. 

Mr. Rice. Don't they gamble there? Don't they have dice games 
there? 
, Mr. Ozenne. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been there ? 

Mr, Ozenne. A couple of times, 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it true they have gambling games there? 

Mr. Ozenne. Not that I know of. 

Mr, Rice. Now, sir, yesterday there was a man by tlie name of Moity 
here. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And Mr. Moity had something to say about going into 
the slot-machine business down there. Do you know that he was in 
the slot-machine business ? 

Mr. Ozenne, I used to see him with music boxes and machines, 
sometimes, on his truck, but I didn't know if he was in the business 
or not. 

Mr. Rice. Now, if I might sum up his testimony — and counsel will 
correct me if I am wrong 

Mr. Orchard. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. It was to the effect that he w^as approached by law- 
enforcement officers and told to pay off or get out of the business. 

Mr. Ozenne. I wouldn't know nothing 

Mr. Rice. Is there anything you want to say about that ? 

Mr. Ozenne, I wouldn't know nothing about that, 

Mr. Rice. You don't know anything about that at all ? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You had no conversations with him yourself? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. I haven't seen that boy in a year. 

Mr. Rice. You haven't seen him in a year? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had conversations with him ? 

Mr. Ozenne. A long time ago. 

Mr. Rice, What business was he in then ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Well, I don't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. But in any event you had no conversations with him along 
those lines? 

Mr. Ozenne, No, sir, 

Mr. Rice, Is there anything you want to add to that? 

Mr, Ozenne, Oh, I had occasion, in my office, to seize his automobile 
and truck a couple of times, and he was pretty peeved about that. 

The Chairman. Well, now, he said that he couldn't get into the 
business down there, or when he got into the business that demands 
were made upon him for the payment of certain amounts per machine 
per month. I have forgotten what the amount was. 

Mr. Ozenne. I wouldn't know nothing about that, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 235 

Tlie Chairman. How did you decide which of these people you 
would let operate coin machines ? 

Mr. OzENNE. It's no exception; the parish has been open for 30 
years. 

The Chairman. You let just anybody who wants to operate? 

Mr. OzENNE. Local people; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Local people? 

Mr. OzENNE. It's all local people that's operatiu";. 

The Chairman. These machines are made in Chicago; aren't they? 

Mr. OzENNE. I wouldn't know, sir, where they come from. 

The Chairman. Suppose there is some dispute about wdio is going 
to be in certain locations, do you settle those disputes? 

]Mr. OzENNE. No, sir ; none whatever. 

The Chairman. And your testimony is that you just let them oper- 
ate and you don't take any — they don't make any contribution to a 
fund? 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir; none whatever. 

The Chairman. How about the association? Do they have an 
association down there? 

Mr. OzENNE. Not that I know of, sir. 

The Chairman. This prostitution : it's been rumored that it is on an 
organized basis, with prostitutes coming and going from one place to 
another. 

Mr. OzENNE. That I wouldn't know^, sir. 

The Chairman. There is a charge that some of the ministers, I 
believe, have made about it. 

Mr. Ozenne. I wouldn't know, sir. The city takes mostly care of 
that. 

The Chairman. You don't go into the matter very deep ? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Is this a pretty large section? Is it just in one 
town ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Just a small section, maybe five or six. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Amar Rodrigue ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes, sir ; I know him. 

]Mr. Rice. Who is he ? 

Mr. Ozenne. He is a local boy from there. I understand he is a 
gambler. He gambles for a living, and fixes slot machines. I don't 
know him too well, what he's doing. 

Mr. Rice. Doesn't he have a deputy sheriif 's commission ? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that ? 

Mr. Ozenne. I am positive. He had one at one time. 

Mr. Rice. When you were sheriff ? 

Mr. Ozenne. During the time of the war, during the time for black- 
outs, and one thing and another, but it's been canceled a long time. 

Mr. Rice. That was when you were sheriff? 

Mr. Ozenne. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. He received no salary, then, I take it, as deputy? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, doesn't Reverend Travis and Father Bo- 
quet, and other ministers and people— haven't they formed an asso^ 
ciation and been to see you several times about trying to get you to do 
something about that ? 

68958- 



:236 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir ; they never have been to see me at all. 

The Chairman. They do have an association; don't they? 

Mr. OzENNE. Not that I know of, sir. 

The Chairman. They had a grand jury investigation — didn't you 
liave a grand jury investigation? Didn't you have a petition filed by 
them and a lot of other people for a grand jury investigation? 

Mr. OzENNE. I don't recollect. It was 2 years ago ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Wlio was the foreman of the grand jury? 

Mr. OzENNE. I don't recollect. It was 2 years ago. 

The Chairman. And the grand jury found nothing — no true bill? 

Mr. OzENNE. No true bill. They throwed it out. 

The Chairman. Just threw it out. 

Mr. OzENNE. No true bill. 

The Chairman. And during the time of the grand jury this was 
operating just the same? 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. They closed up? 

Mr. OzENNE. I understand the people, after they were charged, they 
removed all the machines. 

The Chairman. And after the grand jury was out they put them 
right back ? 

Mr. OzENNE. I don't know about that. 

The Chairman. How many of these night clubs like the Moulin 
Rouge do you have in New Iberia ? 

Mr. OzENNE. Three or four. 

The Chairman. Three or four. 

Mr. OzENNE. Yes. 

The Chairman. Pretty big places ? 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir ; not so big. 

The Chairman. How far is that from New Orleans ? 

Mr. OzENNE. About 150 miles. 

The Chairman. Sort of southwest? 

Mr. OzENNE. West. 

Mr. Gill. Almost due west. 

The Chairman. Almost due west? 

Mr. OzENNE. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do these slot-machine operators help you out in 
your campaign ? 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. They don't contribute anything to it? 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir. 

The Chairman. They are a pretty potent political force, aren't 
they ? 

Mr. OzENNE. Not that I know of. Not in my parish. 

The Chairman. How about the night-club operators? 

Mr. OzENNE. They don't either. 

The Chairman. They don't do anything political at all? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. They are barely getting by to make a living 
right jiow. 

Tlie Chairman. Do you recommend people for jobs in those places? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, in fairness to you, Sheriff, I don't know 
whether you have read all the testimony — you ask him about it, Mr. 
Rice. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 237 

Mv. Rice. A previous witness made the statement that the "bag" 
man, or "pick-up" man for you was this Amar Rodrigue ; that he made 
collections from the gambling operations and turned the money over 
to you. Do you have anything you want to say? 

;^Ir. OzENNE. That's not a fact, sir. I don't know anything about 
that. 

Mr. Rice. You don'tknow anything about that? 

Mr. OzENNE. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you want to make it a little stronger and say you 
know it is not true? 

Mr. OzENNE. It is not true. Positively. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, sir, in addition to your compensation as 
sheriff, do you receive money from any other sources ? 

Mr. Ozenne. I have a little farm that works about 20 acres of land, 
since last year. I don't know how much it will make. The last year 
was the first year. 

Mr. Rice. Other than your farm, and your duties as sheriff, do you 
have any other source of incomes? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You don't receive any money from businesses, or persons, 
other persons than on the farm ? 

Mr. Ozenne. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I think that is all. 

The Chairman. All right, Sheriff. 

Who came up here with you ? 

Mr. Ozenne. Mr. LaBauve. 

The Chairman. All right, we will hear Mr. LaBauve now. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LaBAUVE, CITY MARSHAL, NEW IBERIA, 
LA., ACCOMPANIED BY G. WRAY GILL AND WILLIAM C. ORCHARD, 
ATTORNEYS, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. Mr. LaBauve, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you will give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. LaBauve. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Your name is 

Mr. LaBauve. Howard LaBauve. 

Mr. Rice. You are the town marshal ? 

Mr. LaBauve. City marshal ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. City marshal, at New Iberia? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gill. If Your Honor please, again, out of an abundance of cau- 
tion, we make the same reservations. 

The Chairman. Yes; we note your objection. 

Mr. Rice. Were you present during the testimony of Sheriff Ozenne ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How long have you been town marshal? 

Mr. LaBau^ts. Since 1942. 

Mr. Rice. Since 1942. Have you lived in New Iberia most of your 
life? 

Mr. LaBauve. All my life, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, do the slot machines run in New Iberia? 



238 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. LaBattve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wide open? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Pay off in cash ? 

Mr, LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon? 

Mr. LaBauve. I don't know of any pay-off. 

Mr. Rice. The slot machines — the one-armed bandits. 
. Mr. LaBauv'E. Do they pay off? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Orchard. The machines themselves. 

The Chairman. We are not talking about whether they pay you 
off; we are talking about whether they pay off the fellow that puts 
money in them. 

Mr. Rice. They pay the player off in cash ? 

Mr. LABAu^^. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about the one-balls, one-ball bandits ? 

Mr. Gill. Pinballs. 

Mr. LaBauve. I haven't seen any, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You haven't seen any? 

Mr. LaBauve. No. 

Mr. Rice. You don't have any in your town so far as you know ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Any handbooks, or horse books — hand- 
books down there ? Can you gamble on the horses ? 

Mr. Gill. Tell him, if you know. 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you do that? 

Mv. LaBauve. In town. 

Mr. Rice. In town? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Suppose a customer wants to make a bet on a horse,, 
where does he go in town ? 

Mr. LaBauve. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Does he go in a store or a hotel somewhere ? 

Mr. LaBauve. I still wouldn't know — some bookie place. . 

Mr. Rice. Do they advertise openly ? 

Mr. LaBauve. They are open. 

]Mr. Rice. And open to the public ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Walk in off the street? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. They get the race results as the races are run ? 

Mr. LaBauve. I would imagine. I've never been in one. 

Mr. Rice. You've never been in one? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, is there a restricted zone for prostitution there?' 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Rice. And it is perfectly permissible to practice prostitutioiiL 
in your town ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Gill. Explain how that is, 

]Mr. Rice. How long has that been going on? 

Mr. LaBauve. As long as I have known myself, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 239 

Mr. Rice. As long as you have been there ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. I've been there all my life. 

Mr. Rice. You have always been there? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. Prostitution goes on this way. It is wide 
open but the board of health and the police, the city and the parish, 
they allow them to run but the doctors, they are examined by the 
board of health weekly. 

Mr. Rice. By the board of health ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are they licensed? 

Mr. LaBauve. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, what is the position of the ministers and preachers 
and priests about that? Have they come to you and protested as 
to that? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir ; no one has ever protested and it's been there 
as long as I know myself; probably before. 

Mr. Rice, How about narcotics? Do they sell reefers, or mari- 
huana, down there ? 

Mr. LaBauve. If any is sold we don't know of any of it, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear of a man by the name of Frecl Sliman? 

Mr. LABAU^^. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know whac he went to jail for ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Hearsay. 

Mr. Rice. Hearsay; yes. 

Mr. LaBauve. Narcotics. 

Mr. Rice. He went up to Lexington, didn't he ? 

Mr. LaBauve. As a user. 

Mr. Rice. As a user ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where did he obtain his narcotics? 

Mr, LaBauve. I wouldn't know, sir. I think the crime was com- 
mitted in New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. The crime was committed in New Orleans. In the city ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And does he stay in New Iberia most of the time? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is he a relation of Mr. Ozenne, who was here previously ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is he a brother of his son-in-law ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Now, then do you know a man by the name of Moity ? 

Mr. LaBauvte. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What business was he in ? 

Mr. LaBauve. I was told that he was in the slot-machine business. 
That's hearsay. I have no definite proof of that. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have any conversation with him ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever call him on the telephone? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I will again sum up. Counsel. 

Mr. Gill. Certainly, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Yesterday, Mr. Moity appeared here and testified in effect 
that he started into the slot-machine business down there in your town 
and almost immediately he was approached and told to pay off, mean- 



240 ORGANIZED CRIME IIN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

ing to law-enforcement officers, or get out. Do you have anything you 
wish to say m regard to that? 

Mr. ' LaBatjve. Nothing, sir. 

Mr. Gill. Is it true? 

Mr. LaBatjve. It is not true. I have never contacted the man. 

Mr. Rice. You have never contacted him ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And as far as you are concerned you have had no connec- 
tions, legal or illegal, business connections or any other ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. The man has never been in my office, sir. 

The Chairman. I think it should be stated in fairness to Mr. Moity, 
who appeared to be a very sincere young man trying to do a job, he 
came all the way up to Washington to see us, of this committee ; that 
he had tried very hard to get something done about the slot-machine 
business with you and the sheriff, and did not have any success, so in 
order to find out how it was operated and have direct proof as to 
its operation he got into it himself, and then that these demands for 
cash came along, or else that he get out of the business. 

Mr. LaBauve. Not to my knowledge, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Mr. Lovelady ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. ^ 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of him ? 

Mr. LaBauve. I heard of his name this morning, sir, out in the hall 
outside. _ i 

Mr. Rice. How about Amar Rodrigue ? Do you know him ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. "Who is he ? 

Mr. LaBauve. He lives in New Iberia, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat does he do? 

Mr. LaBauve. Gambler. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat kind of gambler ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Cards, poker. 

Mr. Rice. Does he operate a game ? Card game ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir ; not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Does he back the game ? Lottery, slots ? Or what does 
he do? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir ; he gambles ; poker ; professional gambler. 

Mr. Rice. Professional gambler? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where does he play ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Almost anywhere in town. 

Mr. Rice. Is that all that he does ? Just gambles. 

Mr. LaBauve. He repairs machines, too. 

Mr. Rice. Repairs 

Mr. LaBauve. Mechanic. 

Mr. Rice. What kind of machines ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Slots. 

]Mr. Rice. One-armed bandits ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Wasn't he a deputy marshal ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. With you ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did he have credentials or cards ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 241' 

Mr. LABAir\Ti:. Yes, sir; he lias. 

Mr. Rice. Does he still have that ? 

Mr. LaBau\^. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How do you account for that, sir — that you deputize a 
man who is a gambler ? 

Mr. LaBauve. I have never known that ever at home that poker 
was considered illegal. It stays open all the time. And they just take 
it for granted that it is not. 

l\Ir. Rice. How about the slots ? 

Mr. LaBaitv^e. He doesn't operate slots. 

Mr. Rice. Did you say he repairs them ? 

Mr. LaBatjs^e. Yes, sir. Mechanic. 

Mr. Rice. He is doing something in furtherance of the slot-machine 
operations, then, isn't he ? He's helping it ? 

Mr. LABArrS'E. That is hearsay. I don't know that to be correct. 
I never have seen him work on the slots. 

Mr. Rice. When you heard that, did you make any investigation 
to see whether that was true ? Did you ask him about it ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You still keep him on as a deputy ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. It has been alleged that this man, Rodrigue, was the 
''bag" man, or collector for you ; that he went around to the various 
operators of gaming devices and took money from them for delivery 
to you. What do you have to say about that ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir; I have no knowledge of that at all. If he- 
has collected, I haven't received any. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever received any money from him ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did he contribute to your campaign ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did any gamblers contribute to your campaign? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir, 

Mr. Rice. I think that is all. 

The Chairmaist, Your position is that you are giving the people 
what they want. Is that right ? 

Mr. LaBauve. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. How about these ministers and these people who 
have filed a petition to get a grand- jury investigation ? 

Mr. LaBauve, That was handled through the grand jury, sit, in a 
legal form. 

The Chairman. Well, they have quite an opposition to this thing 
down there, haven't they, now ? 

Mr. LaBauve. I wouldn't say so. 

The Chairman. You don't think it is very substantial ? 

Mr. LaBauve. No, sir. 

The Chairman. The ministers, and some people like that 

Mr. Gill. Just tell what you know. 

Mr. LaBauve. I would say two ministers at the most, at that time. 

The Chairman. But they have a lot of other citizens who signed 
iiD with them, haven't they ? 

Mr. LaBau\'e. Very few, Senator. 

The Chairman. Very few. 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 



242 ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Anyway, they got a grand- jury investigation and 
a no-true bill. 

Mr. LaBauve. That is right. 

The Chairman. Everything just ran right along during the inves- 
tigations like it did any other time ? 

Mr. LaBauve. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, Marshal. 

Mr. Orchard. I would like the record to show. Senator, that the 
grand jury is a parochial body and this man is a town official. 

The Chairman. Yes ; we know that. 

Mr. Orchard, The parish body was operating with the district 
attorney's office. 

The Chairman. His town is the parish seat, isn't it ? 

Mr. Gill. Yes, sir ; it is. 

The Chairman. All right. Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. The committee will stand in recess until 15 minutes 
■of 2. 

(Wliereupon, at 12:35 p. m., the committee recessed until 1:45.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(The hearing of the committee reconvened at 2 p. m.) 

TESTIMONY OF REV. DOUGLAS CARROLL AND REV. THOMAS 
CARRUTH, BILOXI, MISS. 

The Chairman. Reverend Carroll and Reverend Carruth, do you 
solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Reverend Carroll. I do. 

Reverend Carruth. I do. 

The Chairman. Reverend Carroll, I am asking you and Reverend 
Carruth to come in and testify together, and I will direct questions 
to one of you but if either of the other of you have some supplemental 
information, please speak up and give it. Of course, I understand 
you have been working on this matter together. 

Reverend Carroll, what is your full name and what church are 
you a minister of? 

Reverend Carroll. Douglass Carroll, and Central Assembly of God 
in Biloxi ; and I am chairman of the Ministerial Association there. 

The Chairman. Central Assembly of God, in Biloxi ? 

Reverend Carroll, Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you are chairman of the Ministerial Associa- 
tion in Biloxi ? 

Reverend Carroll. That is right. 

The Chairman. And you. Reverend Carruth ? 

Reverend Caerltth, My full name ? 

The Chairman. Thomas Carruth. 

Reverend Carruth. Thomas Albert Carruth ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And what church are you connected with ? 

Reverend Carruth. I am pastor of the First Methodist Church in 
IBiloxi. 

The Chairman, And have you both been in Biloxi or in that section 
: a consi derable time ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 243 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir. 

Reverend Carkuth. Yes, sir; we have. 

The Chairman. Reverend Carroll, you have been in touch with 
the committee at Washington, and I want to ask you specifically 
whether in Biloxi — what is that county ? 

Reverend Carroll. That is Harrison County. 

The Chairman. Is Keesler Field near by ? 

Reverend Carroll, Keesler Field is in the city limits of Biloxi. 

The Chairman. That is an Air Force field ? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir. It is the largest radar school, I be- 
lieve, in the world. 

The Chairman. Do j'ou know how many men are located at Keesler 
Field? 

Reverend Carroll. Twenty-one thousand, or thereabouts. 

The Chairman. Have you and Reverend Carruth been active in the 
association to try to do something about gambling and criminal con- 
ditions in Biloxi and in that county ? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir ; with all of our might, we have. 

The Chairman. How long has this effort been going on ? 

Reverend Carroll. Since January 8, 1950. That is when we made 
our first move against gambling in that county. 

The Chairman. In that county, let's talk about the types of gam- 
bling, and is gambling open wdiere everybody can see it and anybody 
can participate? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What types of gambling? 

Reverend Carroll. Well, blackjack tables and mostly slot machines.. 
There are about 35 — I mean, 1 slot machine for every 35 people, I 
understand, in Harrison County. 

The Chairman. And the things you speak about, I want you to 
speak of your own knowledge and not just what somebody has told 
you. 

Are the slot machines in business places and restaurants ? 

Reverend Carroll. Filling stations ; that's right. 

The Chairman. At Keesler Field : are machines out there ? 

Reverend Carroll. There were, but since our President ruled them 
off the military posts, they have been moved. We moved upon 
Keesler Field to have them moved from there. We were rejected in 
fact. They would not move them from Keesler Field during our 
drive on slot machines. 

The Chairman. Until recently, when the 

Reverend Carroll. When the President ordered them — — 

The Chairman. Law went into effect. 

Reverend Carroll. That is right. 

The Chairman. Tell what you have seen and what you know about 
any effect the slot machines in the territory have on the boys at Kessler 
Field. 

Reverend Carroll. Well, I don't know whether you are familiar 
with the average age of the boys at the field, but it is about 19 years 
of age. Some of them are much younger, some of them, are older; 
but many of these boys have come to me as a minister, stating that 
after pay day, sometimes before the pay day had elapsed, that they 
had put all their money into slot machines, or that they had lost their 
money at a blackjack table, and they were somewhat disturbed by it. 



244 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

And it seemingly is that the slot-machine operators thrive upon wait- 
ing for these boys to get their pay day, that they might fill their coffers 
from these men who are getting paid from Kessler Field, which is a 
very large concentration of boys there. 

The Chairman. Now, in addition to slot machines and blackjack, 
are there gambling casinos run wide open, with craps and other types 
of gambling? 

Reverend Carroll. Oh, yes; on the coast. You will find it along 
the coast and in Biloxi. In some places they have signs on the doors, 
"No minors allowed." 

The Chairman. In other words, it's wide open to the public ? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes; that's right; you or I, either one, could 
go in there if we weren't recognized. 

The Chairman. Have you seen them yourself ? 

Reverend Carroll. Oh, yes ; I have. 

The Chairman. Can you state that there are other people from out- 
side the State or from other States that have come there to take part 
•of it, or to go into the management or to have something to do with it? 

Reverend Carroll. Well, I would have to state that from hearsay, 
but that is the understanding in general. Some of them are operated 
from out of the State ; some of them are locally operated. 

The Chairman. What have you tried to do about it ? 

Reverend Carroll. Well, we tried to file affidavits and have them 
brought into court and tried, but we never could get convictions in the 
-courts in the city. 

The Chairman. What is the law-enforcement set-up ? Is it under 
the jurisdiction of the sheriff or the chief of police, or what? 

Reverend Carroll. I don't quite understand just what you mean. 

The Chairman. I mean who is supposed to stop it, if it is supposed 
to be stopped ? 

Reverend Carroll. I would assume that it is in the county, that the 
sheriff of the county should enforce the law and put the slots out; 
if it is in the city, I think the city law-enforcement officers should put 
them out. 

The Chairman. Have you taken it up with the sheriff and city 
officials? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir ; we have taken it up with the sheriff. 

The Chairman. Have you taken it up with the head of the police 
•department in the city of Biloxi ? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir; we did. 

The Chairman. Did you get any assistance or did they do anything 
about it? 

Reverend Carroll. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you take it up with them, too, Reverend 
Carruth? 

Reverend Carruth. Yes, I did; with Brother Carroll, in the or- 
ganization. I was one of the group that went before them. 

The Chairman. This organization is composed of lay people as 
well as preachers ? 

Reverend Carroll. Oh, yes ; we had quite a lot of backing. 

The Chairman. How many people's backing do you have ? 

Reverend Carroll. Well, in the mass meeting, what would you 
say we had ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 245 

Reverend Carruth. I would say tliere were three or four hundred 
people there, in one of our meetings; a number of people across the 
city expressed interest in what we were doing. 

The Chairman. Well, I might say that some public officials from 
]\Iississippi have asked us to invite you to come in and we are not 
going to have an opportunity, on this occasion, to go into the details, 
but we did want to get the general situation there ; and also your un- 
derstanding that slot machines were from other places, and also that 
people from other States had part of the operation of it, one way or 
another. Is that correct ? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have kept, I believe, a scrapbook which you 
brought to Washington with you 

Reverend Carroll. Yes. It is in the room. I have it out there. 

The Chairman. I believe, Reverend Carroll 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Which shows in picture form some of the places 
and some of the operations. 

Reverend Carroll. That's right. 

The Chairman. Suppose you get the scrapbook. 

(Reverend Carroll went after the book.) 

The Chairman. While he is gone. Reverend Carruth, who is the 
sheriif of this county and who is the chief of police of Biloxi that you 
have talked to, yourself ? 

Reverend Carruth. Mr. Les Quave is the sheriff of the county we 
have talked with, and chief of police — Brother Carroll ? 

Reverend Carroll. Earl Wetzel. There is a recent change in the 
city administration. 

The Chairman. Earl — what? 

Reverend Carroll. Wetzel, I believe. 

Reverend Carruth. Earl Wetzel. 

The Chairman. Wlio is the mayor of Biloxi ? 

Reverend Carroll. Mr. Chin. 

Reverend Carruth. Mr. Hart Chin. He has just taken over. 

The Chairman. He is the new mayor. 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Wlio is the old mayor ? 

Reverend Carroll. G. B. Cousins, Jr. 

The Chairman. Let's see your scrapbook. 

(The scrapbook was tendered to the chairman.) 

The Chairman. This shows a number of pictures of meetings and 
what not, where you and members of the association have been trying 
to do something about these things over a period of several months. 
Is that correct ? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir. We had the machines out for about 
31/2 months. Some of them were still in hiding and they were played 
behind curtains and walls and doors, but you could still hear them 
operating. 

The Chairman. So they just went underground a little bit. 

Reverend Carroll. Yes, sir; because I was threatened so many 
times I seemed to get a little scared myself. 

The Chairman. You were threatened? Tell us about that. 

Reverend Carroll. The main threat I got one night when I was 
returning home from one of these raids we were endeavoring to 



246 ■ ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

make. I had taken Reverend Carruth home. We were a little afraid 
of traveling at night because of the uncertainty. We didn't know 
when we would get a bullet or something shot at us because the situa- 
tion was very tense. Our lawyer was offered five hundred or a thou- 
sand dollars to back out of the casa 

The Chairman. Well, just tell what you know now. Who threat- 
ened you ? 

Reverend Carroll. Well, as far as who thre.atened me, this gentle- 
man followed me to my garage, stepped out of his car and told me 
that if I did not back out of this that my family and my boy — it cer- 
tainly would not be well for them ; and to get from my garage to my 
door I want you to know I was pretty scared, as anybody would be. 
To get from my garage door to my back porch I had to come back 
around my car. In other words, I had to come west and then to the 
back of my car and back east again. So the man must have thought 
I was coming toward his car, so after the threat he took off. As to 
his identity I don't know who he was; I know what kind of car he 
was driving, his license plate was covered up. 

Mr. Rice. Did that happen in the day or at night ? 

Reverend Carroll. That happened at midnight; about 5 minutes 
after 12 at night. 

The Chairman. You told me outside you thought you had been 
threatened, either physical harm or your life, at least a hundred times. 

Reverend Carroll. Over the telephone ; or more than that. I have 
been threatened by both men and women. 

The Chairman. Over a hundl^ed times. 

Reverend Carroll. More than that. 

The Chairman. What would the threats consist of? 

Reverend Carroll. Well, they would consist of the fact that these 
slot machines that I have no business to have any part of in them ; that 
my business was preaching from the pulpit the Word of God and 
leaving gambling alone. If somebody wants to gamble, let them 
gamble. 

The Chairman. What did they say they would do to you ? 

Reverend Carroll. Well, they said it would not be well for us. 

The Chairman. Did you have threats, too. Reverend Carruth ? 

Reverend Carruth. I don't believe I have had any personal threats ;. 
I have some mysterious calls from unknown persons. 

The Chairman. Somebody outside — John Bertucci. Who is he? 

Reverend Carroll. He lives in Biloxi. 

The Chairman. What does he do in Biloxi ? 

Reverend Carroll. As far as his occupation is concerned, I don't 
know. 

The Chairman. Well, has he been mixed up in this matter in any 
way? 

Reverend Carruth. He was summoned. Senator, in the trial we had 
in the city court. There they asked him several questions about his 
business. 

The Chairman. All right. Anyway, here is some pictures of just 
slot machines out in the open. Is that typical ? 

Reverend Carruth. Yes, sir ; it is very typical. 

Reverend Carroll. In a truck, you mean ? 

The Chairman. No. This seems to be in a store or something,, 
and some boy is looking at them. 



ORGANIZED CRIME W INTERSTATE COMMERCE 247 

Reverend Carroll. Well, you can take pictures of them in the open, 
riglit there anywhere, even today. They are right there operating. 

The ChxMRman. Do you think the majority of the people want 
something done about it over there ? 

Reverend Carroll. Yes ; I do ; but I think a lot of the people are 
afraid to make a move. 

The Chairman. Why don't they get officials who do something 
about it, if they want it? 

Revei-end Carruth. Sir, we have been working on that angle and it 
is very difficult We have appealed to our city officials, our county 
officials; it has laid before the Governor of the State of Mississippi, 
and he has refused to do anything about it. 

The Chairman. He said it is a county matter ? 

Reverend Cakruth. I presume he would think that ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you personally lay it before him, or who did? 

Reverend Carroll. No ; I did not. Mr. Lee Guice laid it before the 
Governor of the State of Mississippi. He is an attorney in our city, 
Mr. Guice. 

The Chairman. Is Mr. Guice an attorney for the association ? 

Reverend Carruth. He was at the time he presented it to the 
<jiovernor. 

The Chairman. All right. That is all. 

Do you have anything else you would like to say about that? 

Reverend Carruth. I would just like to say this. Senator, that 
w^e in Mississippi appreciate very much the fine work you and your 
-committee are doing, and we are here this afternoon at your invita- 
tion and in the interest of good Christian people of Biloxi, but more 
•especially in the interest of all the Christian mothers and fathers 
who have these young men at Keesler Field and who do not want to 
see them become gamblers or become immoral persons. We will be 
glad to cooperate with you in any further way we can in carrying 
out your work. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOHN J. (VIOLA) GROSCH, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. I might say, in connection with Mr. Grosch, w^e 
told Mr. Grosch we were going to look into some of the matters we 
asked him about. He wanted to know why the questions were a'sked 
him, so I felt, in fairness to him, that we should look into the matter. 
I don't want to get into a long controversy between Mr. Grosch and 
anybody else over irrelevant matters, but I think we owe it to him, 
or to the committee, to show the reasons the questions were asked him 
last night. 

Come around, Mrs. Grosch. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mrs. Grosch. I do. 

The Chairman. Now, let's get down to the point. Certain questions 
were asked Mr. Grosch which were denied, and it has apparently turned 
^out to be partly upon information that we got directly or indirectly 



248 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

from Mrs. Grosch, as the basis for the questions. Let's find out what 
the questions were and what it was about. 

Mr. Rice. Now, your name is Mrs. John Grosch ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. You were formerly the wife of John Grosch, the criminal 
sheriff here ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Right. 

The Chairman. What do you do now, Madam ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I am supervisor at the Hotel Dieu. 

The Chairman. Supervisor at where ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Hotel Dieu. 

Mr. Rice. That is a hospital here ? 

Mrs. Grosch. A hospital here, yes; Tulane Univei*sity. 

Mr. Rice. And you are supervisor of the nurses or nurses aids there ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Nurses aids ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. How long have you been there ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Three years. 

Mr. Rice. When were you married to John Grosch ? 

Mrs. Grosch. In 1921. 

Mr. Rice. In 1921? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And you were divorced in what year ? 

Mrs. Grosch. '41. 

Mr. Rice. 1941 ? 

Mrs. Grosch. '41. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Now, what was Grosch's job during the time that 
you wer« married to him? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, when I first married him he was a pile driver. 
And then a year later he went in on the police force. 

INIr. Rice. When he was first married, he was what? 

Mrs. Grosch. A pile driver. 

Mr. Rice. A pile driver ? 

Mrs. Grosch. He worked on a pile driver. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mrs. Grosch. Then, a year later he went on the police force, and he 
was just on there about 2 months when they got him into the detective 
office. Then he was a detective; then chief of detectives, for many 
years. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

The Chairman. I don't want to go into all the case history about 
the matter; it is important and interesting, but it is necessary 
that we get on. Let's take up specifically the things we asked Mr. 
Grosch last niglit and that he denied knowing anything about. 

Mr. Rice. During the time that you were married to Grosch, did he 
have a safe box in the home ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Rice. A locked box ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us about that ; when and where it was obtained. 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, he sent me for it. I bought it at Rolland's 
Lock Co., on Camp Street. 

Mr. Rice. You say he sent you for it ? 

Mrs. Grosch. He sent me for it ; yes. It was a box about this long 
[indicating] and this high. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 249' 

The Chairman. Indicating about 2 feet long and 1 foot high ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. And it had a combination on it. 

Mr. Rice. It liad a combination on it? 

Mrs. Grosch. Tliat is right. 

Mr. Rice. A strong box? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And that was bought at Rolland's, on Camp Street ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Do you remember about what year that was ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Around 1938 or 1939. 

Mr. Rice. Around 1938 or 1939. 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, what did he tell you to do about the box — ^how to buy 
it, what name to give ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, he told me not to use his name. 

Mr. Rice. He told you not to use his name ? 

Mrs. Grosch. To get it under an assumed name, and to give a 
different address. 

Mr. Rice. Give what? 

Mrs. Grosch. Give another address. 

Mr. Rice. What name did he tell you to use ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, he didn't tell me so I used the name of "J. 
Smith." 

Mr, Rice. You used the name, "J. Smith?" 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; on Chestnut Street. 

Mr. Rice. Why did you pick that name ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, my mother's maiden name was Smith and 
that's the first name that came to me. 

Mr. Rice. Your mother's maiden name was Smith ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Why did you select an address on Chestnut Street? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, my sister lives right there, and I 

Mr. Rice. Did you give your sister's address ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I don't think it was her address. It was right there 
in the block with her. 

Mr. Rice. Now, so that you just picked an address on Chestnut 
Street, 

Mrs, Grosch. That's all; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you remember who you dealt with at Rolland's? 

Mrs, Grosch. No ; I don't remember that. 

Mr. Rice. I see : About how much did this box cost? 

Mrs, Grosch, About $10,50, or $11. 

Mr, Rice. It cost $10 or $11 ? 

Mrs, Grosch. $10 or $11. 

Mr. Rice. Was it delivered to your home ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Was it delivered to our home? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Did you carry it home? 

Mrs, Grosch. I carried it home. 

Mr. Rice. Where were you living at that time ? 

Mrs, Groscii. 6168 Canal Boulevard. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, when you got it home, where did you keep 
it? 

Mrs. Grosch, In the attic. 

Mr. Rice. In the attic? 



250 ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What use was made of the box ? 

Mrs. Grosch. To hold money. 

Mr. Rice. To hold what money ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, money that was brought into the home. 

Mr. Rice. Well, tell us about the money that was brought into 
the home. 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, I mean, the check money: I mean his check 
was turned over to me when he got it. 

Mr. Rice. That is his salary check you are talking about now 

Mrs. Grosch. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. That he got from the police department, was turned 
over to you ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. This money was brought to the home 
or he brought it from the office, in different sums. 

Mr. Rice. This was cash money, was it not? 

Mrs. Grosch. All cash. 

Mr. Rice. In different sums. Now, what sums ? Would it be large 
bills or small bills ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No ; most of it was brought home in $5, or most $1 
bills. He sent me to the bank to get large bills for the money. 

Mr. Rice. He brought money in ones and fives and when you would 
get together how much would you go to the bank ? 

Mrs. Grosh. Oh, well, I would go down and get 150 dollar bills. 
Sometimes thousands if it was possible. 

Mr. Rice. When you would get a hundred or thousand dollars you 
would go to the bank and get hundreds and thousands? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I see. What bank would you go to ? 

Mrs. Grosch. All of them. 

Mr. Rice. You would go to all of them; just go to a cashier and 
■change the money ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. When you got the large bills, what would you do? 

Mrs. Grosch. Put them in the safe deposit box. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, how much money accumulated in that box? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, when I left there, there was $150,000 in the 
box. 

Mr. Rice. When you left there ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What year was that? 

Mrs. Grosch. That was in 1940, 1 think. 

Mr. Rice. In 1940? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever count that money? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Rice. And how much was there when you counted that? 

Mrs. Grosch. There was $150,000 when I left. 

Mr. Rice. In 1940? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, over what period had that money accumu- 
lated, Mrs. Grosch. 

Mrs. Grosch. Oh, I'll say for about 1934 ; around 1934 or 1935. 

Mr. Rice. Starting in 1934? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 251 

Mrs. Gkosch. Around that time. 

Mr. Rice. Now, tlien, where did that money come from? 

The Chairman. Don't state unless you know where it came from, 
unless you saw who brought it. 

Mrs. Groscii. Well, I would not know where the money came that 
was brought into the house by him. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mrs. Grosch. But I did get money at the house that different 
people brought to the home. 

Mr. Rice. You say you got money at the house that different peo- 
ple brought to the home ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

The Chairman. Let's mention some whom we asked him about last 
night. 

Mr. Rice. Did George Brennan bring any money to the house? 

Mrs. Grosch. George Brennan was at the house all the time, but I 
don't know whether — he didn't give me any money. 

Mr. Rice. He didn't give you any money ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

Mr. Rice. Did he give you anything else? 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

Mr. Rice. How about gi'oceries? 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

Mr. Rice. How about Collogue? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, he would give presents on Christmas, and dif- 
ferent things like that. 

Mr. Rice. Brennan would give presents on Christmas? 

The Chairman. Well, let's ask about the money. 

Mr. Rice. How about Collogue and Cigali? 

Mrs. Grosch. They would send somebody there. 

Mr. Rice. They would send someone there ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; they would send someone there. 

Mr. Rice. Did Collogue come himself? 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know who Collogue sent? 

Mrs. Grosch. No. He sent some little short fellow. He said 
Johnny Jones. I didn't know who he was. 

Mr, Rice. Johnny Jones. How about Cigali ? 

The Chairman. What would he bring when he came, this Johnny 
Jones, or whoever this man was ? 

Mrs. Grosch. What would he bring when he came? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Grosch. Mostly when I would see him it would be around the 
holidays, Christmas and all, and it would be a case of champagne, 
and turkeys and things. 

The Chairman. I am talking about money or something. Did he 
bring any money? 

Mrs. Grosch. No ; he didn't give me money. 

The Chairman. Wlio brought money, if you know who brought 
money ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Mr. Copeland came every week with money. 

Mr. Rice. Larry Copeland? Was that Larry Copeland? 

Mr. Grosch. I don't know what his first name was. 

68958— 51— pt. 8 17 



252 ORGANIZED CRIME IflST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. What business was Copeland in ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I really don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Copeland when you see him ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I think I would. I haven't seen him in many years, 
but I think I would. 

Mr. Rice. When Copeland came there did he give the money to you 
or to Johnny ? 

Mrs. Grosch. He gave it to me, 

Mr. Rice. How much would he give you at a time? 

Mrs. Grosch. $39 a week. 

Mr. Rice. Did he tell you to turn it over to him ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. It was in an envelope. 

Mr. Rice. I beg your pardon? 

Mrs. Grosch. He had it in an envelope. 

Mr. Rice. And he would tell you to give it to Johnny ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And you would give it to J ohnny ? 

Mrs. Grosch, Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you remember how much it was in the envelope? 

Mrs. Grosch. He used to bring $30 every week. 

Mr. Rice. How did they arrive at that amount? 

Mrs. Grosch. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Rice. How about Julius Pace? Did he ever bring anything 
there ? 

Mrs, Grosch. Oh, yes ; he used to come all the time. 

Mr. Rice. He used to come all the time. 

Mrs. Grosch. He'd come to the house all the time. 

Mr. Rice. What would he do? 

Mrs. Grosch. He would give Johnny money, 

Mr. Rice. He would give him money ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. He never gave it to me. He would send 
presents. 

The Chairman. Did you see that yourself? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You say you did see it? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. How much would Pace give? 

Mrs. Grosch. I don't know the exact amount he would give. 

Mr, Rice. What business is Pace in ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Pace? 

Mr. Rice, Yes. 

Mrs. Grosch. I don't know; either in the lottery or slot machine, 
but I don't know which. 

Mr. Rice. Either in the lotteiy or slots, 

Mrs. Grosch. I know when the music boxes first came out he brought 
one out to the house; he brought one out to the house for a present 
when they first came out. 

Mr. Rice. How about Henry Muller? 

Mrs. Grosch. Henry IVIuUer? Yes, he used to come every Satur- 
day and brought all the food for the week. 

Mr. Rice. He brought all the food for the week ? 

INIrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What business is Henry Muller in ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I think he has a house of prostitution. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 253 

Mr. Rice. He has a house of prostitution? 

The Chairman. Well, don't say unless you know what he has. Do 
you know that? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, I heard Johnny say it. I mean, I never did 
see it, but 

Mr. Rice. Did Morris Reiner ever give Johnny anything? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What did he give him ? 

Mrs. Grosch. He gave him dilTerent pieces of jewelry. 

Mr. Rice. Different pieces of jewelry. Diamonds? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. How about the time when you bought the house on Canal ? 
Was there any mortgage placed on that ? Was there a mortgage on 
that house? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, they put a mortgage on it, but we really didn't 
need any because it was paid for. 

Mr. Rice. It was paid for ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Who did they put the mortgage on wdth? What was 
the name of the man ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Monte Hart. 

Mr. Rice. Monte Hart. But it was a fake mortgage? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Actually the money was paid up and he did not owe the 
money to ]Monte Hart. Is that right? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, Monte Hart died, didn't he? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes, he killed himself. 

Mr. Rice. And then what did he do ? 

Mrs. Grosch. He transferred it over to George Brennan. He re- 
duced it to $5,000 and changed it over to George Brennan. 

Mr. Rice. He didn't owe George Brennan anything though, did 
he? 

Mrs. Grosch. No ; it was the same transaction. 

The Chairman. Why would he be faking the mortgage? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, that was right after the time when Huey Long 
came down here investigating the taxes and he couldn't account for his 
money. 

The Chairman. This mortgage was $10,000, wasn't it ? 

Mr. Rice. It was originally 10, when Monte Hart had it? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And it was reduced to five when Brennan had it? 

Mrs. Grosch. Reduced to five. 

Mr. Rice. Do you remember the time when the Suburban Building 
and Loan Association had a loan on the house? 

Mrs. Groscii. Yes, I do. 

Mr. Rice. That was when you first bought it, was it not? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes; that is right. 

Mr. Rice. And did you go down to the Suburban and make any 
payments for Johnny ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I made all of them. 

Mr. Rice. You made all of them? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Did you make payments larger than $100 for him? 



254 ORGANIZED CRIME lOST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. Gkosch. Oh, yes. 

Mr. KiCE. Well, now, was there any change made in the amount of 
payments for any reason ? 

Mrs. Grosch. 'No. I mean, he just wanted to get it paid up in a 
hurry. 

Mr. Rice. He wanted to get it paid up in a hurry? 

Mrs. Grosch, Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Did he pay as much as a thousand dollars at a time? 

Mrs. Grosch. That's right; he paid a thousand dollars until he was 
told to stop. 

Mr. Rice. He paid a thousand dollars until he was told to stop ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Who told him? 

Mrs. Grosch. Mr. Reyer. 

Mr. Rice. George Reyer? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Were you there w^hen he told him ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No ; but he came home and told me not to do it, not 
to pay it any more because he was told to cut down on the payments. 

Mr. Rice. Johnny Grosch came home and told you not to pay a 
thousand dollars any more ; just to pay a hundred? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What reason ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, I don't know what reason. 

Mr. Rice. Did it look bad ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, he couldn't pay that out of his salary. 

Mr. Rice. He couldn't pay it out of his salary. He couldn't account 
for how he could make such substantial payments. Is that the idea ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That's right. 

The Chairman. Well, what was his salary then ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I think he was getting $186 at the time; that is, a 
month. 

Mr. Rice. Was he having troubles with the tax people? 

Mrs. (jtrosch. Well, when Long investigated he had troubles with 
them. 

Mr. Rice. And what did he do to straighten that out ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, he straightened it out. He paid up quite a 
l)it of the taxes. 

Mr. Rice. Did he ever get you to say that you had lost any money 
gambling? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Rice. Who did he get you to say that to ? 

Mrs. Grosch. To the tax people. 

Mr. Rice. To the tax people? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us about that — what his instructions were. 

Mrs. Grosch. I mean, that was in the Huey Long investigation, 
when he had so much money. He had money in the banks and every- 
thing, and he couldn't account for it, so he had to say that I won it. 

Mr. Rice. That you won it? 

Mrs. Grosch. Uh huh. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever gamble? 

Mrs. Grosch. I played keno: that's all. 

M'r. Rice. Did you ever win ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 255 

Mrs. Grosch. Once in a while [Laughing] but- 



Mr. Rice. What amount did he cause you to say you had won — how 
much moiiej'? 

Mrs. Gkoscii. Oh, I think it ran into $10,000, something. 

Mr. Rice. About $10,000. You never won that much playing keno, 
did you? 

Mrs. Groscii. No, indeed; I didn't. I don't think you can. 

Mr. Rice. Now, on the money that was put in this box — was any 
record kept of that ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No; just by counting it and putting it in there. 

Mr. Rice. Just by counting it. He didn't keep any slip as to whom, 
it came from 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

Mr. Rice. Or any books ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

]Mr. Rice. Now, where did he have bank accounts ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, he had bank accounts in all the banks before 
the depression that time. 

Mr. Rice. He had bank accounts in all the banks ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Until I had to go get it out. 

Mr. Rice. And he told you to get it out ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, were those all in his name ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Some of them were in his name ; some in mine. 

Mr. Rice. Some w^ere his, some were yours ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Any other names? 

Mrs. Grosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about "John Joseph?" 

Mrs. Grosch. Oh, he had a box, a safety deposit box in the name of 
John Joseph. 

Mr. Rice. He had a safety deposit box ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Where was that? 

Mrs. Grosch. I think it was in the American Bank. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have a key to that ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

Mr. Rice. He was the only one that had a key ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That was all. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever see what was in that box ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No, I never did. 

Mr. Rice. Did he have a bank account in Mobile ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I wouldn't know, but he made many a trip there. 

]Mr. Rice. He made many trips to Mobile ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What did he tell you about banking in Mobile ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, the only thing, he did say that one day he went 
to Mobile on the 22d of February and said he made the trip for noth- 
ing : the bank was closed and he had to go back the next day. 

Mr. Rice. Did he say that to you ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Was anyone else there when he said that to you ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; I think George Brennan was there at the time. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know what bank in Mobile, though? 



256 ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mrs. Grosch. No ; I never did know. 

Mr. Rice. How did he explain that to you ? Did you ask him what 
he was doing with a bank account up there ? , 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

Tlie Chairman. All right. Anything else? 

Mr. Rice. Did Johnny Grosch ever go to Hot Springs? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; he did. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever go up there with him ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I did. 

Mr. Rice. And did you meet with other people up there ? 

Mrs. Grosch. We met Costello one time up there. 

Mr. Rice. You met Frank Costello up there ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I did. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us about that. 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, I mean, I don't know whether it was a casual 
meeting or what, but we met him out in the Belvedere Club. 

Mr. Rice. In the what? 

Mrs. Grosch. In the Belvedere Club. 

Mr. Rice. In the Belvedere Club, up there in Hot Springs? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; in Hot Springs. 

Mr. Rice. What did they talk about ? 

Mrs. Grosch. I wouldn't know. 

Mr. Rice. Were you there when they talked? 

Mrs. Grosch. They didn't talk in front of me. 

Mr. Rice. They didn't talk in front of you ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of Phil Kastel ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; I have heard of him, but I don't know him. 

Mr. Rice. You haven't met him ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No. 

Mr. Rice. Did Johnny tell you about his protection of the slot ma- 
chines for the Louisiana Mint Co. ? 

Mrs. Grosch. No ; I never heard him speak of it. 

Mr. Rice. Did he talk about Costello's slot machines ? 

Mrs. Grosch. He used to speak of slot machines all the time, but, I 
mean, not to mention any name. 

The Chairman. All right. I believe that's enough. That's all, 
Mrs. Grosch. 

Mr. Rice. I have a few more. Now, then, at the time of the divorce, 
who represented you, Mrs. Grosch? 

Mrs. Grosch. Mr. Walet — Eugene Walet. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, did you sue Johnny ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Rice. You brought suit ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now, did you file for alimony or settlement ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes; I wanted alimony, but I wasn't able to get it. 

Mr. Rice. You wanted alimony but you couldn't get it. Well, now, 
did you get a property or money settlement ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes; I did. 

Mr. Rice. What was that settlement ? 

The Chairman. Well, unless there is some particular reason for 
asking what the settlement was 

(Chairman and Mr. Rice confer.) 



ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 257 

The Chairman. All right. Counsel says there is some reason to 
ask it. 

Mr. KiCE. Wliat was the agreement? 

Mrs. Grosch. I don't know. I think it was $23,000, something like 
that; and different Homestead books, and a Buick car. 

Mr. KicE. So that you got $23,000 and some other things. 

Mrs. Grosch. I mean Homestead books. 

Mr. Rice. Homestead books. 

Now, were there two agreements? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes; there were. 

Mr. Rice. Well, explain that. Tell us what that was. 

Mrs. Grosch. Well, I mean, he made the agreement — the agreement 
was made and the other one was made out for $5,000. 

Mr. Rice. He made out an agreement for $5,000 ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And that was the one you put on the records ? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes ; that was the one that was recorded. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, you had an "under the table" agreement for 
more than that. Is that right ? 

Mrs, Grosch. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. And were both of those agreements reduced to writing ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. And signed by all the parties ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That's right. 

The Chairman. Are these the agreements here, Mr. Rice? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

The Chairman. Let's enter them for identification. Exhibit A, I 
believe, is on the record, and exhibit B is not on the record. Get them 
identified, Mr. Rice. 

]\Ir. Rice. I show you a paper and ask you if you recognize it? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Take a look at it. 

Mrs. (trosch. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What is it? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is the one that was recorded. 

The Chairman. That is the agreement that is recorded? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that correct? 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. That is the one for $5,000 ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. We will introduce that. 

The Chairman. All right. That will be made a part of the record 
at this point. 

(The document referred to as exhibit A was marked "Exhibit No. 
19," and appears in the appendix on p. 442.) 

Mr. Rice. I show you a second paper and ask you if you recognize it. 

Mrs. Grosch. Yes. This is the right paper. 

Mr. Rice. That's the right paper ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. That's what you actually received. 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

The Chairman. Mark that "Exhibit No. 20." 



258 ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

(The document referred to as exhibit B was marked "Exhibit No. 
20," and appears in the appendix on p. 445.) 
The Chairman. How much is that for ? 
(The witness examines the document.) 
The Chairman. The receipt is on the bottom. 
Mr. Rice. Now, there is a liandwritten notation here: 

New Orleans, La., June 21, 1941. 
In connection with the above matter, having received judgment gi-anting sepa- 
ration from bed and board in favor of Mrs. Viola Grosch and having effected a 
settlement of community property in the amount of $35,700, we hereby acknowl- 
edge receipt of all fees in full in the sum of $3,200 plus costs of $77, $77.25. 

Signed "Eugene H. Walet, Jr., F. Philson Williamson." 

The Chairman. Were they your attorneys ? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, what was your reason for having two agree- 
ments like that ? 

The Chairman. Well, that is quite obvious, I think. 

Mr. Rice. What did he tell you 'i 

Mrs. Grosch. He didn't want that one recorded. 

Mr. Rice. He didn't want that to be knoAvn for tax reasons? 

Mrs. Grosch. That is right. He didn't want it to be known for 
tax reasons. 

The Chairman. All right. That is all. Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. We asked something about a Cadillac automobile 
yesterday. What was that based on ? 

Mr. Rice. We have something on that. I have this other witness. 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. CELENA PIERPOINT, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

Mr. Rice. You are Mrs. Pierpoint ? 

Mrs. Pierpoint. That is right. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Pierpoint. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Mrs. Pierpoint, where are you employed ? 

Mrs. Pierpoint. Rolland Safe & Lock Co. 

Mr. Rice. At Rolland Safe & Lock Co. 

Mrs. Pierpoint. Yes, sir ; 338 Camp Street. 

Mr. Rice. Have you been there for a time ? 

Mrs. Pierpoint. Quite some time, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How long? 

Mrs. Pierpoint. Oh, since about 1934-35. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Now then, today did a man by the name of George 
Butler that you see here come over to see you ? 

Mrs. Pierpoint. Yes, sir ; he did. 

Mr. Rice. Did you examine the records of the company ? 

Mrs. Pierpoint. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And find certain things ? 

Mrs. Pierpoint. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, read the letter and let her examine the origi- 
nal invoice, or whatever it is. 



ORGANIZED CRIME LX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 259 

Mr. Rice. I show you some papers and ask you if you know wliat 
they are'^ 

Mrs. PiERTOiNT. Yes, sir ; definitely. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat are they ? 

Mrs. PiERPcHNT. They are records of a purchase of a strongbox 
from us in 1939. 

Mr. Rice. Is this paper a record from the company, kept in the 
usual course of business ? 

Mrs. PiERroiNT. Yes, sir ; it is. 

Mr. Rice. And you recognize it as such ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, these are records of what? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. That particular record is a record of only safe 
purchases. 

Mr. Rice. Of safe purchases? 

Mrs. PiERroiNT. Yes, sir; safes and small strongboxes, at retail. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Now then, directing your attention to line 4, what 
do you see there ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. That is a record of J. Smith purchase of a strong- 
box, we assume, for the small amount of $10.50. 

Mr. Rice. The record of a purchase of J. Smith ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. At 4310 Chestnut Street. 

Mr. Rice. 4310 Chestnut. 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. November 29, 1939. 

Mr. Rice. On November 29, 1939. 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. And that is invoice No. 19640. 

Mr. Rice. And the amount? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. $10.50. 

Mr. Rice. Ten dollars and a half. 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right. We will offer the record as the jDurchase of 
the strongbox. 

The Chairman. Let it be made an exhibit. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 21," and is on 
file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. Is that the same address that testimony has shown 
was the residence of Mr. Grosch ? 

Mr. Rice. No ; that is the street address Mrs. Grosch said she used 
when she purchased the box. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, at the time that Mr. Butler was over there, did he 
examine other records ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes, sir ; he did. 

Mr. Rice. Did he find other names on there from the records? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes, sir ; he did. 

Mr. Rice. Did you assist him in making notes at that time? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I wonder if you find any safes or strongboxes sold to 
anyone else from those records, such as Jerome Giegerman? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us about that. What do the records show about 
that? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. The records show he purchased a safe the 12th 
month, 5th, of 1944. 



260 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Is that our invoice number ? 

Mrs. Peerpoint. No, sir; that is not a record of the actual invoice. 
This would be the invoice number, from our records. 

Mr. EiCE. Yes. 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. 92769. 

Mr. Rice. The date is December 5, 1944? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, how about H. Giegerman ? 

Mrs. PiERPONT. That is correct ; on June 21, of '44. 

Mr. Rice. He bought a safe or strongbox ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. A safe ; that is right. 

Mr. Rice. Giving the address, 4750 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Lafaye Street. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, how about James J. Trapani ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. That's riglit, sir ; on January 28, of 1945. 

Mr. Rice. He bought a box using the address 2837 Broadway ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. How about J. Pecoraro? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes, sir; that is correct. 

Mr. Rice. He brought a box using the address 120 North Tonti ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. How about Anthony Bertucci ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. That is correct also. 

Mr. Rice. He bouglit a box using the address Marrero? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And Ed Bertucci, the same thing ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. At Marrero ? 

Mrs. PiERPOiNT. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mrs. Pierpoint. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Grosch was asked last night about 
whether he had been given a Cadillac automobile back in 1946. He 
said he had not. 

Here appears to be a picture of a Cadillac automobile with Mr. 
Grosch and Mr. Dowling standing next to it. This will be made a 
part of the record. 

(The photograph referred to was made a part of the record as "Ex- 
hibit No. 22," and appears in the appendix on p. 446.) 

The Chairman. And the item of May 6, 1946, from the New Or- 
leans Item, part of which will be read into the record, the whole clip- 
ping will be put into the record and part will be read, which I under- 
stand accompanied the picture in the Item : 

"JtrsT A Gift for Johnnie" 

A luxurious 1946 Cadillac automobile was presented to John J. Grosch, new 
criminal sheriff, by unnamed friends today. 

The presentation was made a few minutes before Mr. Grosch took over his 
new office. 

Sidney (Duke) Schaeffer, who is in the coin-operated machine business, said 
that the auto liad been given by "businessmen" friends of Mr. Grosch. 

Richard A. Dowling, attorney for Mr. Grosch, who made the presentation, 
was asked to give the names of the friends, but refused. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 261 

"This auto is presented to Johnny Groscli by his many friends," said Mr. 
Dowlins. "It is being presented In belialf of a thousand persons. I cannot give 
you their names as they wisli to remain anonymous, and I must respect their 
wishes." 

Tlie new macliine of the former detective chief is a swanky four-door maroon- 
colored vehicle, and cost approximately $2,675. 

"There are no strings attached to the gift," Mr. Dowling added. 

And, further that — 

"The car was not bought liere. It was bought in Washington. We pulled all 
sorts of strings to get it" — 

et cetera. 

Let's call the next witness. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN BERTUCCI, BILOXI, MISS. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bertiicci, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and noth- 
ing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Berttjcci. I do. 

The Chairman. Mr. Bertucci, what do you do over there in Biloxi ? 

Mr. Bertucci. What do I do in Biloxi ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Bertucci. I am in the finance business, and I speculate in real 
estate at this time. 

The Chairman. Are you the Bertucci that bought a strongbox at 
Holland's? 

Mr. Bertucci. Me ? No, sir. 

The Chairman. Some other Bertucci. 

You were in the United Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Yes, sir. 

The Chair3ian. How long ago has that been? 

Mr. Bertucci. In 1945. 

The Chairman. What was the United Novelty Co. ? 

Mr, Bertucci. They handled coin machines. 

The Chairman. You are out of the business now, you say, or are 
you? 

Mr. Bertucci. Out of that business. I have an interest in the 
Crown Novelty Co. here. 

The Chairman. Crown Novelty Co.? 

Mr. Bertucci, Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Here in New Orleans? 

Mr. Bertucci. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, What is that? 

Mr, Bertucci, That is a coin-machine business. 

The Chair3ian. Slot machines, or just 

Mr, Bertucci, No; they handle pinballs and phonographs; ma- 
chines like that. 

The Chairman. The Crown Novelty business ; is it a corporation ? 

Mr, Bertucci, Yes, sir. 

The Chairman, Who is the president ? 

Mr, Bertucci, Mr. Nick Carbajal, 

The Chairman. Nick who ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Carbajal. You spell that C-a-r-b-a-j-a-L 

The Chairman. Does that have something to do with the United 
Novelty Co. ? 



262 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Bertucci, No, sir. 

The Chairman. You did own interest in both of them. You sold 
out to United ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Sold out to United in 1945. 

The Chairman. Do some of the Marcellos have an interest in one 
or the other of these companies ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Mr. Marcello had an interest in the Dixie Coin 
Machine Co., and Mr. Pace and I bought he and Mr. Pistachio out in, 
I am not sure of the month now, but I think it was in August of 1945. 

The Chairman. Now, is that a New Orleans company? 

Mr. Bertucci. Dixie Coin Co. ; yes. 

The Chairman. You bought him and who else out ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Mr. Pete Pistaschio. 

The Chairman. Pete Pistaschio? 

Mr. Bertucci. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the name of that company ? 

Mr. Bertucci. That is the Dixie Coin Machine Co. 

The Chairman. Do you still own an interest in that ? 

Mr. Bertucci. I bought Mr. Pace out in 1917, just before he died. 

The Chairman. Well, then, you own it all, do you? 

Mr. Bertucci. No. That was sold to United Novelty Co. in that 
year. 

The Chairman. The Dixie Coin Machine Co. was sold to United? 

Mr. Bertucci. That is right. 

The Chairman. But the United Novelty is a Mississippi com- 
pany? 

Mr. Bertucci. That is right. 

The Chairman. Corporation chartered under the laws of Missis- 
sippi ? 

Mr. Bertucci. That is right. 

The Chairman. So the interests have been passed back and forth. 
You have some ownership — some of the people who own an interest 
in New Orleans own an interest in Biloxi. Is that true? 

Mr. Bertucci. Just what I have told you is true. 

The Chairman. Well, they do business with one another? 

Mr. Bertucci. I beg your pardon ? 

The Chairman. They do business with one another, the Mississippi 
company and the New Orleans company ? 

Mr. Bertucci. The New Orleans company is a branch of the Mis- 
sissippi company, so I understand. 

The Chairman. That is 

Mr. Bertucci. When I sold it. 

The Chairman. That is, the Dixie Coin Machine Co. is a branch 
of United Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Bertucci. That is right. That is my understanding. As I 
«ay, I sold it to the United in I think it was in 1947. 

The Chairman. And what kind of machines do they handle, Mills, 
■Jennings, or what kind ? Do you know ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Senator, I don't think I should answer that ques- 
tion. 

The Chairman. Well, anyway 

Mr. Bertucci. I am satisfied to cooperate, but I don't think I should 
incriminate myself. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 263 

The Chairman. Well, we don't want you to incriminate yourself. 
But they weren't machines made in the State of Mississippi, were 
they ? 

Mr. Bertucci. No, sir. There are no machines made in the State 
of Mississippi, as far as I know. 

The Chairman. There has been an effort to get up a company 
around here to make machines in Louisiana, hasn't there ? Have you 
heard about that? 

Mr. Bertucci. That has been the general conversation I have heard 
about. 

The Chairman. Did they talk to you about it? 

Mr. Bertucci. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Didn't some man come over to Biloxi to interest 
some of you fellows in joining a company? 

Mr. Bertucci. Not to me. Maybe to someone else. 

The Chairman. Maybe he talked to somebody else? 

Mr. Bertucci. Maybe he talked to somebody else. 

The Chairman. Is that the only interest you have had in coin- 
machine operations? 

Mr. Bertucci. Yes. That is all I have had, just like I told you. 

The Chairman. How about these? 

Mr. Bertucci. I beg your pardon. The Crown Novelty owns the 
Rex Novelty, and Mr. Marcello. What the mayor said yesterday 
was not true. Mr. Marcello or Mr. Matrangas never owned anything 
in the Rex, or has never been associated with me in any way only when 
1 bought him out in 1945. 

The Chairman. Now, the Crown Novelty here in New Orleans owns 
the Rex Novelty Co. also of New Orleans ? 

Mr. Bertucci. No ; in Jefferson Parish. 

The Chairman. Jefferson Parish. How do you know that, sir? 

Mr. Bertucci. Because I am a 50-percent stockholder in the Crown. 

The Chairman. Now ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Yes. 

The Chairman. And why do you have two corporations ? 

Mr. Bertucci. We don't have two corporations. 

The Chairman. What is the Rex Novelty ? 

Mr. Bertucci. It is a branch of the Crown. 

The Chairman. Is it a separate corporation or just a separate trade 
name ? 

Mr. Bertucci. It is just a trade name. 

The Chairman. Well, the ownership of one is the same as the other, 
and Carlos Marcello or none of the Marcellos have any interest in 
the Crown 

Mr. Bertucci. Never have had any interest. 

The Chairman. Or the Rex Co. ? 

Mr. Bertucci. The only dealings I have had with Mr. Marcello was 
buying him out in 1945. 

The Chairman. Who does own the Crown Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Mr. Carbajal and myself own 50 percent of tiie stock 
each. It is a corporation, incorporated for $20,000.. 

The Chairman. Twenty-five what? 

Mr. Bertucci. $20,000. 

The Chairman. $20,000. 

Mr. Bertucci. We own $10,000 of stock each. 



264 ORGANIZED CRIME UN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Is it a profitable business ? Has it been ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Not too much. 

The Chairman. Do you mind telling how many machines or how 
many devices you own or operate, about ? 

Mr. Bertucci. They never have operated any machines at all. We 
just merely sell machines. 

Tlie Chairman. I mean how many they sell in the course of a year? 

Mr. BeUtucci. Mr. Carbajal is the manager and the active head of it. 
We would be glad, if j^ou want, to look at the records, we will be glad 
to furnish the records. 

The Chairman. You sell in Louisana, Mississippi, and what other 
States? 

Mr. Bertucci. I think that is where the bulk of them goes, as near 
as I know. 

Mr. Rice. Are you connected with the National Finance Co. in 
Biloxi? 

Mr. Bertucci. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And does that company finance slot machine operations ? 

Mr. Bertucci. It finances phonographs. 

Mr. Rice. PhonogTaphs and coin machines? 

Mr. Bertucci. Phonographs only. 

Mr. Rice. Going back several years ago, did you buy a number of 
machines from Mills in Chicago? 

The Chairman. He asked not to answer that. I won't press the 
point. 

Mr. Bertucci. I don't want to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. When you were operating over there did you have any 
arrangements with the chief of police ? 

Mr. Bertucci. I refuse to answer that, Senator, That certainly 
would incriminate me as far as State law is concerned. 

The Chairman. He didn't operate them. He said he sold them. 

Mr. Rice. In 1944 what did your business gross, approximately ? 

Mr. Bertucci. What did it gross? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Bertucci. Oh, I would say the entire business probably gi-ossed 
200,000, or something like that. 

Mr. Rice. Probably grossed $200,000? 

Mr. Bertucci. That is right. The entire business. 

The Chairman. You said something about a Mr. Carbajal having 
an interest with you or being in the business. 

Mr. Bertucci. That is right. 

The Chairman. What business is that? 

Mr. Bertucci. The Crown Novelty. 

The Chairman. Is he a 50-50 partner ? 

Mr. Bertucci. That is right. 

The Chairman. Wliich Carbajal is that? 

Mr. Bertucci. Nick. 

The Chairman. Is he a young f elloAV ? 

Mr. Bertucci. I would say a man about 35. 

Mr. Rice. He is not a lawyer, is he ? 

Mr. Bertucci. No, not Senator Carbajal. 

The Chairman. He is not a politician or he is not Senator? 

Mr. Bertucci. I think he is a very poor politician, if he is. 



ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 265 

The Chairjvian. Things are pretty wide open over in the Biloxi 
area, I take it? 

Mr. Bertucci. Well, that seems to be the general opinion. 

The Chairman. Well, you would know pretty well, I suppose, 
wouldn't you ? 

Mr. Bertucci. Well, I couldn't swear to it. 

The Chairman. I just mean from what you see. 

Mr. Bertucci. I don't gamble, so I don't go in the places m3^self. 

The Chairman. But you see where the places are, and everybody 
knows where they are ? 

Mr. Bertucci. There are night clubs there. I go in those, and the 
common knowledge is that there is gambling going on. But I could 
not swear to it. 

The Chairman. They have a little sign up on the door, "No Minors 
Allowed," in the gambling parts. 

Mr. Bertucci. I have seen those signs. 

The Chairman. And a great many slot machines in operation? 

Mr. Bertucci. I will have to pass that by also. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Bertucci. 

We will have a 5 minute recess. 

(Short recess.) 

TESTIMONY OF SHERIFF FRANK J. CLANCY, GRETNA, LA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY EDMOND E. TALBOT, NEW ORLEANS, ATTORNEY 

The Chairman. Sheriff Clancy, will you come around ? 

Let me again say, while the witness is coming, that we will probably 
conclude this hearing sometime tonight. There may be some people 
in the hearing room who did not hear my previous announcement, 
but if anybody wants to make any explanation about any testimony 
that has been given, we want to give them an opportunity to do so. 
I don't want to leave New Orleans with anybody saying that they 
were talked about and did not have the opportunity of presenting 
their side before the committee. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Clancy. I do. 

The Chairman. I say, are you the sheriff that is sometimes referred 
to by some of the magazine writers as ''King Clancy?" 

Mr. Clancy (laughing). That's right, Senator. 

Mr. Talbot. Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter my name as 
counsel for Mr. Clancy: Edmond E. Talbot, 729 Whitney Bank 
Building. 

I want to make this observation for the record, Mr. Chairman : That 
we object to proceeding before Your Honor as a committee of one in 
that you do not constitute a quorum of the committee. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. 

Mr. Talbot. I understand you overrule the objection? 

The Chairman. Yes ; I have already ruled on that. I overrule the 
matter again. 

Mr. Talbot. I also want to make the observation that Mr. Clancy 
does not appear here voluntarily. 



266 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. He has been subpenaed and the subpena will be 
made a part of the record if you wish. 

Mr. Talbot. And I also want to make the objection that the subpena 
is illegal in both form and substance. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. Your objection will be noted. 

Mr. Talbot. Well, I understand it is a matter of law that will proba- 
bly come up later. 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Talbot. Now then, you may proceed with the examination. 
We will make our returns to the subpena, if you wish to have them. 

The Chairman. All right. Thank you, Mr. Talbot. 

May I ask the sheriff a few questions? What records and books 
have you brought here. Sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. I have just brought the stock in some corporations I 
have. 

The Chairman. Let's see what it is ; maybe we will not even need it. 

Mr. Talbot. Just a minute. May it please you, Mr. Chairman, I 
represent Mr. Clancy. He has expressed to me his wishes and I have 
made a formal return which I wish to present to this committee, and 
have the Chair's ruling on it. This return is signed by Mr. Clancy 
and is his own individual wishes and his own individual return, and 
I submit this return to the subpena [handing document to the chair- 
man], subject to our objections already reserved. 

The Chairman. This, I believe, sets forth the records and the books 
that Sheriff Clancy has brought pursuant to the subpena. Is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Talbot. Yes. It reflects a list of stocks which he has in corpo- 
rations which we contend are his own personal and private papers, 
and not subject to production. If the Chair rules that they shall be 
produced then we want it understood as expressed in this formal 
return that it is over our objection ; that they are irrelevant, not perti- 
nent to the issues here, and that they are in violation of Mr. Clancy's 
constitutional rights. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Talbot. The return, with the cap- 
tion, "Statement No. 1 by Frank J. Clancy" will be made a part of the 
record at this point. 

(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 23," made a part of the 
record, and is on file with the committee, being in words and figures, 
as follows, to wit : 

Statement No. 1 by Fkank J. Clancy 

The undersigned witness, in obedience to a subpena issued by this honorable 
committee, commanding his presence: "And bring with you all books, records, 
and supporting documents relating to your income and disbursements from Janu- 
aiy 1, 1!M4, to date; all records relating to assets and/or interest in property 
either real, personal or mixed, or interest in legal entities during the aforesaid 
period; and copies of Federal income-tax returns during the aforesaid period" 
hereby states, in return to said subpena, that he has no records of any corpora- 
tion in his possession, nor is tlie undersigned witness, to his knowledge, an officer 
in any corporation : that the undersigned witness has in his possession certain 
certificates of stock in the following corporations : 

Merchants Trust Bank of Kenner, La., one certificate for $5,000 worth of stock 
standing in his name and one in the name of his wife for $3,000 worth of said 
stock ; 

Guaranty Bank & Trust Co. of Gretna, La., $500 worth of stock. This is a new 
bank and the certificate for said stock, to witness' knowledge, has not been issued 
to him ; 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 267 

Long Range Developmont, Inc., Gretna, La., one certificate for 150 shares of 
capital stock (actual investment .$l,r)00) ; 

Capital Industries, Inc., Baton Rouge, La., 50 shares of preferred capital stock 
and 50 shares of no par common ; 

Dixie Finance Co., Inc., Metairle, La., S shares of capital stock, 6 percent cumu- 
lated preferred nonvoting and Ki shares class A voting conunon stock; 

^letairie Savings Hank & Trust Co., Metairie, La., 50 sliares of capital stock; 

First National Bank of Jeffei'son Parish, La., certain old stock in this bank has 
been recalled and a new certificate of 125 shares at $20 per share has been issued 
to the undersigned witness ; 

Tassin Bros., Inc.. Kenner, La., 10 shares, defunct. 

Continental Building & Loan Association, 20 shares, stock (name of Mrs. 
Vera W. C'laucy and owned by her). 

The undersigned witness submits and contends that the foregoing are the 
only records of any corporation, if such the.v be. which he possesses. However, 
the undersigned witness contends that the ownership and control of these stocks 
and certificates are his personal papers and declines to produce same unless 
sioeciflcally ordered to do so by this committee and then only with the full 
reservation, and without in any manner waiving his rights and contention that 
in so doing he is being compelled to give testimony against himself which may 
incriminate him, in violation of the fourth, fifth, and fourteenth amendments 
to the United States Constitution and article 1, section 11, of the constitution of 
the State of Louisiana for the year 1921. 

The undersigned witness respectfully declines to produce any personal tax 
records or documents relating to his income or disbursements; or his records re- 
lating to assets and/or interest in property, either real, personal or mixed, or 
any copies of income-tax returns from January 1, 1944, to date on the grounds 
that: 

First : Said records are not pertinent or relevant to this investigation ; 

Second : Said documents and records, etc., may incriminate him and your 
witness would be compelled to be a witness against himself in violation of the 
foui-th. fifth, and fourteenth amendments to the Constitution of the United States, 
and article 1, section 11 of the constitution of the State of Louisiana for the 
year 1921. 

(Signed) Frank J. Clancy. 

The Chairman. Tlie statement sets forth certain secnrities which, 
I take it, Mr. Chmcy has brought in, which are described here. The- 
Chair will rule that the committee has a right to subpena these mat- 
ters set forth in the subpena and also in the return to which we will 
understand that you have made an exception, or an objection, and the 
objection will be overruled. 

Mr, Talbot. And you are ordering him to produce them? 

The Chairman. We order him to produce them. 

Mr. Talbot. Despite the objection? 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. Talbot. Here they are [producing documents]. 

The Chairman. I don't know that we actually want them all. ' We 
might just give them back to him. 

Mr. Talbot. We would like a receipt for them. 

The Chairman. We will give you a receipt for them. You have 
the Merchants Trust Bank, of Kenner, La., one certificate for $5,000.. 
That is one thini;: that has been handed the committee. 

Mr. Kiley, will you come here and let's read them over. 

Mr. Talbot. Here, I will give you a typewiitten list. It may facili- 
tate 3^ou if you want to give them some publicity. 

The CHAiR:\rAN. Here is the exhibit. Is this description in the type- 
written list the same as the one here ? 

Mr. Talbot. Yes, sir ; I have checked it. I wish you would note in 
this Long Range Development, Inc., 150 shares at $100 each, which 

68958— 51— pt. 8 3 8 



268 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

would ostensibly represent $15,000, actually only represents a $1,500 
investment. 

The Chairman. Yes. The actual investment of that is listed at 
$1,500. 

Mr. Talbot. If you want to keep that in lieu of the stock as the 
return, I would appreciate it. 

The Chairman. Did you get the stock back? 

Mr. Talbot. Yes, sir ; I have checked it. It is there. 

The Chairman. All right. Merchants Trust & Savings Bank, 
5,000 and 3,000. In the Long Range Development Co., 150 shares 
at $100, but you say that is only $1,500. 

Mr. Talbot. That is what Mr. Clancy advises me. 

Mr. Clancy. That is correct. 

The Chairman. What is that Long Range Development Co., Inc. ? 

Mr. Clancy. That was some property we bought at a sale. 

The Chairman. Is that a real-estate operation ? 

Mr, Clancy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Capital Industries, Inc., Baton Rouge, 50 shares 
preferred and 50 no par, $5,000. What is that? 

Mr. Clancy. That is a stockyard auction of cattle. 

The Chairman. What is the Dixie Finance Co.? Eight hundred 
dollars and sixteen hundred dollars. 

Mr. Clancy. That is a loan company out in Metairie. 

The Chairman. A loan company ? 

Mr, Clancy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is this Metairie Savings Bank & Trust Co. ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is a bank out in Metairie. 

The Chairjnian. First National Bank of Jefferson, Gretna, $2,500. 

Mr. Clancy. That is over in Gretna there ; the First National Bank. 

The Chairman. W^hat is the Tassin Bros., Inc., Kenner, La.? 

Mr. Clancy. I don't know whether they are in existence any more 
or not. 

The Chairivian. W'hat was it? 

Mr. Clancy. It was a wholesale drug concern; a little concern up 
there. 

The Chairman. That is for a thousand dollars, I might say. 

Then Continental Building & Loan Association, Mrs. Vera W. 
-Clancy. That is in your wife's name? 

Mr. Clancy. That's a homestead here in New Orleans. 

The Chairman. That is $2,000. 

Does that represent all of the books and records 

Mr. Clancy. All of the corporate interests I have. 

The Chairman. Now, do you have any large real-estate holdings 
outside of your home that you have any records for ? 

Mr. Talbot. I object. Don't answer that. 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that, Senator, on the grounds it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Talbot (after conferring with witness). I will withdraw the 
objection. Wliat land do you have? 

Mr. Clancy. I have a quitclaim deed to a thousand acres of land. 
The land is not yet redeemed from the State of Louisiana. I have the 
right to redeem it under that quitclaim deed. 

The Chairman. Is that in Jefferson Parish? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IflST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 269 

The Chairman. lAHiat do you mean: a "quitclaim deed"? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, these people lost it at a tax sale. 

The Chairman. You bought it at a tax sale ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; I didn't buy it. I bought their right to re- 
deem it. 

The Chairman. I see. Substantially, what is the worth of that? 

Mr. Cjlancy. Well, I gave them $20,000 for it. 

The Chairman. And, of course, you own your home. I won't ask 
jou about that. 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And anything else? 

:Mr. Clancy. Well, I borrowed the $20,000 to buy that 

Mr. Talbot. No, don't. 

The Chairman. To buy the quitclaim deed? 

Mr. Clancy. The quitclaim cleed. 

The Chairman. You borrowed $20,000? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. From one of the banks here ? 

Mr. Clancy. From one of the banks. 

The Chairman. With the deed as security, or just borrowed $20,000 ? 

Mr. Clancy. No ; I borrowed $20,000 on a note. 

The Chairman. Now, the subpena called for, if he has them, the 
production of copies of certain tax returns. Did he bring those in? 

Mr. Talbot. No, sir; that is part of our return which we decline 
to produce. We take the position that we are not obligated to pro- 
duce it. It is privileged under the Government regulations them- 
selves. I understand this committee has, by Executive order, access 
to our income-tax records, but we are not obligated to produce them 
and we refuse to produce them under our constitutional rights. 

The Chairman. Do you refuse to produce them? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to produce them under my constitutional 
rights. 

The Chairman. Well, are you under any investigation, or what is 
the 

Mr. Clancy. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. I mean, why do you fear it might implicate you 
or of what are you afraid it might incriminate you ? 

Mr. Talbot. Just say it involves some Federal or State violations. 

The Chairman. What are you afraid it might incriminate you of ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, it might involve some Federal or State violation. 

Mr. Talbott. You are standing on your rights. 

Mr. Clancy. I am standing on my constitutional rights. 

The CiiAiR3iAN. It is not a matter of — I mean, it must be some real 
matter that you have in mind, I think, in order to claim the privilege. 

JNIr. Talbot. It may involve income taxes. 

The Chairman. What is the matter? 

Mr. Clancy. It may involve income taxes. 

The Chairman. It may involve you with an income-tax investiga- 
tion. Is that what you are talking about ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. 

The Chairman. You don't know of any now, do you ? 

Mr. Clancy. Not to my knowledge. 

INIr. Talbot. Have you signed any waivers ? 

Mr. Clancy. No. 



270 ORGANIZED CRIME IlN INTERSTATE COMJVIERCE 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Talbot, I will have to ask you not to 
prompt the witness. You advise with him whenever yon want to but 
while I am asking questions, let's don't 

Mr. Talbot. You don't intend to deprive the witness of the right 
to counsel ? 

The Chairman. Mr. Talbot, when I was asking questions I could 
hear, and everybody else could hear that you were suggesting what the 
witness might answer. 

Mr. Talbot. I am here to protect him and I will be glad to be 
orderly about it if the Chair wishes. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Talbot, we are glad to have you here but 
you are here as a courtesy of the committee. It is Mr. Clancy that 
we want to inquire of. He is perfectly able to take care of himself. 
1 believe he is a lawyer himself; aren't you, Sheriif ? 

Mr. Clancy. That's right ; I don't practice but I finished. 

Mr. Talbot. I would like to observe that the right to have counsel 
is more than a matter of courtesy ; it is a legal right. 

The Chairman. It is a matter of discretion with congressional com- 
mittees, but we always have allowed full leeway with lawyers. The 
only thing is, when I am asking a question 

Mr. Talbot. I will observe that, but I don't want to be curtailed in 
my right to confer with my client. 

The Chairman. We will not curtail you, but don't you curtail us in 
our right to ask the witness and let him answer his own questions. 

Then it is income-tax investigation or prosecution that you claim, 
your privilege on ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is that it? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

The Chairman. Well, Sheriff, generally how long have you been 
sheriff out there? 

Mr. Clancy. Since June 1, 1928. 

The Chairman. Continually since that time ? 

Mr. Clancy. What is that? 

The Chairman. All the time since then? 

Mr. Clancy. Continually. 

The Chairman. What did you do before then — practice law? 

Mr. Clancy. Clerk of court for 8 years prior to that. 

The Chairman. Do you have any other business besides being 
sheriff, aside from your investments here ? 

Mr. Clancy. In the cattle business. 

The Chairman. Buying and selling cattle? 

Mr. Clancy. And raising cattle. 

The Chairman. Does that take up much of your time ? 

Mr. Clancy. Quite a bit, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you have a farm where you raise cattle? 

Mr. Clancy. I have this land I have the quitclaim deed on that 
I lease from the State of Louisiana at 25 cents an acre. 

The Chairman. You lease a thousand acres at 25 cents an acre? 

Mr. Clancy. No; I don't lease the whole thousand acres. Other 
ones that have cattle on there with me lease too. 

The Chairman. But you have part of it. 

Mr. Clancy. I have part of it leased. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IiX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 271 

The Chairman. That is the property to which you have a quitclaim 
deed ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I have a quitclaim deed to. 

The CiiAiinrAN. Now, of course, the question is, and I am sure 
you will want to tell about it — the evidence is that the Club Forest and 
the Old Southport, or the New Southport, and Billionaire Club and 
Bank Club, and the Forest Club, and O'Dwyers — is there an O'Dwyers 
Club of some kind ? 

Mr. Talbot. Don't answer it. 

Mr. Clanct. I decline to answer that question on the grounds it 
tends to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well you haven't even let me finish the question yet, 
Sheriff. 

Mr. Clancy. I'm sorry. Senator. 

The Chairman. There has been some testimony these clubs operate 
t)ut in Jefferson Parish and the question is, In the first place, clo you 
know that the clubs are out there ? Have you seen them ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that question on the ground that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, I will have to direct you to answer the 
question as to whether you know they are out there or not. 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that question on the gi'ound that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, did you ever hear of the Club Forest ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that question on the ground it 
tends to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear of the Old Southport, in Jeffer- 
son Parish ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. Do you know Henry Mills ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir ; I know Henry Mills. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he operates Club Forest in 
• Jefferson Parish ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that 
it tends to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Incriminate you of what. Sheriff ? 

Mr. Clancy. That's a matter of 

Mr. Talbot. May I confer ? 

The Chairman. Well now, we have a right — it can't be just a fan- 
tastic refusal to answer. 

Mr. Talbot. That is correct. There is a great deal of law back of 
that, as you very well know, Senator, as to how far a man has to go 
when he stands on his constitutional rights, and I think the law is 
pretty well settled now that if this witness were before a tribunal, 
meaning a court, where the court was in a position to determine the 
remoteness of the incrimination, that the court might determine the 
question and then instruct the witness to answer. That situation does 
not obtain here, and we take the position, insofar as this committee is 
concerned, that this witness is the sole judge as to what his answer 
will be and that he does not have to give his reasons for refusing to 
answer. 

The Chairman. Is that the position you take, Sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. I do, sir. 



272 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, I should think, Mr. Talbot, that with all the 
testimony about these places the sheriff would welcome an invitation 
to explain what he knows about it. 

Mr. Talbot. That is a matter of position. 

The Chairman. If the sheriff doesn't w^ant to, we will have to get on. 

Mr. Talbot. That is correct. 

The Chairman. All right. Did you ever hear of the Beverly Club ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether the Beverly Club is located 
in Jefferson Parish or not ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that 
it may tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Have you ever had any business transactions with 
PhilKastel? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it would tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not he is an officer or man- 
ager of a club called the Beverly Club in Jefferson Parish, La. ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it would tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear of the Billionaire Club? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know who the manager of the Billionaire 
Club is? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it would tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether there is a club right across 
the street from the sheriff's office, from your office? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it may tend to 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Is the Billionaire Club across the street from your 
office? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it may tend to 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you have a telephone at 117 Huey P. Long- 
Avenue ? 

Mr. Talbot. May I have a conference with him just a minute? 

The Chairman. All right ; you have a conference with him. 

Mr. Talbot (after conferring). You can answer that. Do you 
know anything about it ? 

Mr. Clancy. I don't know the address of the courthouse. I have a 
telephone in the courthouse and my house. 

The Chairman. At 117 Huey P. Long Avenue. 

]\Ir. Clancy. I don't know the number of the courthouse and I don't 
know where 117 Huey P. Long Avenue is at. 

The Chairman. AVell, there seems to be a phone listed to you in the 
wire-service organization out there, in your name. Do you know 
about that ? 

Mr. Clancy. The only phones listed in my name that I know of, 
that I have had anything to do with, are in the courthouse and at my 
home. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 273 

The Chairman. Do you know about this wire service operation 
in your parish? 

Mr. Claistcy. I decline to answer that on the ground that it might 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Let's get the name of it. 

Mr. KiCE. Daily Sports News. Isn't it true the Daily Sports News 
is located right across the street from the sheriff's office ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that. 

Mr. KiCE. Do you know J. J. Fogarty? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, I know Fogarty. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know what he does ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it might tend 
to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are you under indictment, Sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. No. 

The Chairman. No ; he said he was not under indictment. 

Well, Sheriff, before 1940, did you have any business connections 
with Mr. INIills ? Let's see, w^hich 'jNlr. Mills is that ? 

Mr. Rice. Henry Mills ; in some oil leases. 

The Chairman."^ Henry Mills, before 1940. 

Mr. Clancy. Oil leases? 

The Chairman. Oil leases, or some other operations. 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it tends to 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, did you have any operations with Henry 
Mills in connection with oil leases before 1940? 

Mr. Clancy. Not that I know of. 

The (Chairman. Have you had any operations with Henry Mills 
in connection with oil leases, any business transactions ? 

Mr. Talbot (after conferring with witness). The witness does not 
want to be adamant. He does not know what the Chair is talking 
about. There was a little St. Mary Oil Co. at one time that folded 
up. I don't know whether Mills was in that. 

Mr. Clancy. I may have had stock in it; I don't know. 

Mr. Talbot. If he liad stock in it : if the Chair will 

The Chahiman. Well, the investigative report which we have shows 
that Lawrence Luke and Henry Mills — at the time they were running 
the New Southport, on Monticello Street, in Jefferson Parish— and 
the sheriff had some oil transactions together. Now, I am inquiring 
what they were, or if you had any ? 

Mr. Clancy. I never had any oil transactions with Luke and Mills. 

The Chairman. You never were in any oil business with them? 

Mr. Clancy. The only oil business I was in was in St. Mary. 

Mr. Talbot. Why? Don't you recall? 

Mr. Clancy. No. 

The Chairman. More than 10 years ago, did you have any business 
transactions with Henry Mills? 

Mr. Clancy. None that I know of. 

The Chairman. Did you know what the New Southport Club was 
doing before 1940? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the grounds that it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Before 1940? 



274 ORGANIZED CRIME LX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it may tend to 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know when the Beverly Club started opera- 
tions ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the grounds it may tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Have you heard when it started operations ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the grounds it may tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Wliere is the Bank Club? Do you know anything 
about the Bank Club? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the grounds it would tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear of the Bank Club? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it may tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you know where the A\^iite Horse Inn is ? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it may tend to 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear of the White Horse Inn? 

Mr. Clancy. I decline to answer that on the ground it may tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Now, counsel and Mr. Clancy, can it be agreed and 
understood that when he declines to answer these questions, that the 
chairman has ordered him to answer, he refuses to follow the direction 
of the Chair? 

Mr. Talbot. That is perfectly agreeable. It is likewise to be noted 
that any refusal is based on his constitutional rights. 

The Chairman. That he refuses to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate him. 

Mr. Talbot. Eight. 

The Chairman. Do you understand that, Sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. That's right, sir. 

The Chairman. All these questions that I have asked you, which 
jou have refused to answer, you have been ordered to answer and you 
refuse to follow the direction of the Chair ? 

Mr. Clancy, That is correct, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether there are any slot machine 
operations in Jefferson Parish or not ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground that it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Were any slot machines operating prior to 1940, in 
Jefferson Parish ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Have you ever heard whether any slot machines 
w^ere operating prior to 1940? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you own any slot machines ? 

Mr. Ci^vNCY. That I decline to answer on the ground it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Prior to 1940 did you own any slot machines? 



ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 275 

]\fr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Are there any bookie operations going on in 
Jefferson Parish ? 

]Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Were any going on prior to 1940? 

]\Ir. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever hear that any went on prior to 1940 
in Jefferson Parish? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. How about dice games? Did you ever hear that 
any dice games went on ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairinian. Well, Sheriff, do 3^011 know Deputy Sheriff Cas- 
sagne ? 

Mr. Clancy, I do. 

The Chairman. Do you have a deputy sheriff by the name of 
Cassagne ? 

Mr. Clancy. I do. 

The Chairman. What is his first name ? 

Mr. Clancy. Paul. 

The Chairman. Did you ever have any transaction with him with 
reference to Club Forest? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground that it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever receive any money from Cassagne ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the grounds — — 

Mr. Talbot. Wait a minute ; let him finish. 

The Chairman. That is answer enough : Did you ever receive any 
money from Cassagne? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Wliat are Cassagne's duties? 

Mr. Clancy. Kegular deputy's duties. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he spends some of his time 
in Club Forest? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground that it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you ever receive any money from him that 
came from any of these clubs ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground that it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Prior to 1940 did you ever receive any money from 
him that came from any of these clubs ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the grounds that it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Was he a deputy prior to 1940? 

Mr. Clancy. He was. 

The Chairman. Was Cy Ernst a deputy? 

Mr. Clancy. He is one of our night patrolmen. 



276 ORGANIZED CRIME UN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he has done any work for 
PhilKastel? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer. 

The Chairman. Did you ever have him do any special duties for 
PhilKastel? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground that it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Is it part of his duty to drive him home occasion- 
ally? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground that it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, we don't seem to be getting along very well 
here. 

Mr. Talbot. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How about this fellow, Roth? Is he one of your 
deputies ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; he is not. 

The Chairivian. He never has been ? 

Mr. Clancy. Never has been. 

The Chairman. Is that Roth [spelling] R-o-t-h? 

You don't have a deputy and didn't have one, by the name of Roth? 

Mr. Clancy. Never have had. 

The Chairman. Does Ernst work with some other deputy ? 

Mr. Clancy, I think he patrols with Frank Probst. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he has anything to do with 
any of the clubs, doing any of the work at any of the clubs ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer. It might tend to incrimi- 
nate me. 

The Chairman. Have you recommended any people for work in any 
of these clubs ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer; it would tend to incriminate 
me. 

The Chairman. Did you specifically say that you had put 2,000, or 
over a thousand, people to work in some of these clubs? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the grounds that it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Do you make any effort to enforce the antigambling 
law in Jefferson Parish? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Any effort whatsoever ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground that it would 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Prior to 1940 did you make any effort to enforce 
the gambling laws ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it would tend 
to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Did you take an oath of office when you were sworn 
in as sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. I did. 

The Chairman. Is gambling against the law in Jefferson Parish? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the grounds that it would 
tend to incriminat/e me. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 277 

The Chairman. Was the oath that you took, to uphold the laws of 
the State of Louisiana ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. 

The Chairman. How many Mills boys do you know? How many 
brothers does Henry Mills have? 

Mr. Clancy. I don't know how many brothers he's got. 

The Chairman. Several of them, aren't there? Two or three? 

Mr. Clancy. I think there are three or four. 

The Chairman. Have you had any business relations with any of 
them ? 

Mr. Clancy. None that I know of. 

The Chairman. Do you know Osmond Litolff? 

Mr. Clancy. I do. 

The Chairman. Have you ever had any business operations with 
liim? 

Mr. Clancy. None that I know of. 

The Chairman. Do any lottery operations take place in Jefferson 
Parish ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the grounds that it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Sheriff, do you know Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir; I do not. 

The Chairman. You never have met him ? 

Mr. Clancy. Never met him, and never seen him. 

The Chairman. Do you have any interest in any coin machine 
•company ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever receive any money from any slot- 
machine or coin-machine company? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground that it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Now, there was a suit brought to padlock certain 
clubs about 4 years ago out in Jefferson Parish, wasn't there, about 
which some lawyer here this morning has testified ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. There was a suit filed. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about anything being of- 
fered this lawyer James I. McCain or the people to lay off the suit? 

Mr. Clancy. I don't know the first thing about that. 

The Chairman. You don't know anything about it ? 

Mr. Clancy. No. 

Mr. Chairman. Do you know anything about some offer to a min- 
ister for money to build a Sunday school in the event he would with- 
draw his prosecution of this suit? 

Mr. Clancy. I don't know anything about that. 

The Chairman. Now, what business do you have with the Truckers 
Ice & Cold Storao:e Co., or did you have? 

Mr. Clancy. My wife had an interest in there. She inherited it 
from her father. 

The Chairman. Is that operated in Jefferson Parish ? 

Mr. Clancy. In Kenner. 

The Chairman. What sort of ice was that that this company han- 
dled? 

Mr. Clancy. Real ice. 



278 ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. You seem to know something about real ice, and 
by your use of the adjective 

Mr. Clancy, I heard that expression before. 

The Chairman. "Other ice." Wliat other kind of ice are you talk- 
ing about, Sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, that I decline to answer. 

The Chairman. You decline to answer? 

Mr. Clancy. Tliat is right. I don't know; I just heard that ex- 
pression. 

The Chairman. Prior to 1940 did you hear about some other kind 
of ice besides real ice ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. I heard it here yesterday for the first time. 

The Chairman. That is the first time you have heard that? 

Mr. Clancy. That's right. 

The Chairman. Did you ever get any of this other sort of ice ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer. Senator, on the ground it 
would tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. We are not talking about the cold ice, now, that 
this storage and ice company would make. We are talking about ice 
tliat might be used to give to people for some kind of protection. Did 
you ever get any of that sort of "ice" ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I decline to answer on the ground it may tend 
to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Senator Tobey calls that "the purchase of official toler- 
ance." 

The Chairman, Well, Sheriff, it is a sad commentary that the sheriff 
of a great parish out liere can't tell what you are doing to enforce the 
laws. Of all the people that such a question should not tend to 
incriminate ought to be the sheriff of the parish. 

Mr. Talbot, Well, that is a matter of legal position, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. That's right. 

Mr. Talbot. We would not like to have that comment on the record. 

The Chairman. The sheriff looks like a very affable sort of fellow. 

Mr. Talbot. He is a fine man. Everybody in Jefferson Parish 
thought so for about 28 years. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr, Clancy. 

Mr. Talbot. Are you going to have Mr. Cassange next ? 

The Chairman. All right. Sheriff; we will have to take this matter 
u]3 with the committee. I regret that is true. 

Mr, Clancy, That is right, 

Tlie Chairman, I am sure you realize you cannot get by with this 
sort of testimony, 

Mv. Talbot, We will take that up and meet it when it comes. 

The Chairman, You will remain under subpena, but we will either 
notify you or your attorney when to come back. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OP THOMAS EDWARD McGUIEE, AGENT IN CHARGE, 
BUREAU OF NARCOTICS, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. Your name is Thomas McGuire? 

]Mr. McGuiRE. That is correct. Senator. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 279 

Mr. McGuiRE. I do. 

The Chairman. Are you the agent in charge of the Bureau of Nar- 
«cotics at New Orleans ? 

Mr. McGuiRE, Yes, sir ; I am. 

The Chairman. "Wliat is your general district here, Mr. McGuire? 

Mr. McGuiRE. The entire State of Louisiana. 

The Chairman. Do you also have some connection with operations 
in Mississippi or Texas or other States ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. I have been handling the Gulf coast, the territory 
•commonly called the Gulf coast, out of this office. 

The Chairman. And you are the agent in charge? 

Mr. McGumE. Yes, sir; of this particular area. However, I am 
subject to the area in Houston, Tex., where the main office is; the dis- 
trict supervisor of narcotics is in Houston, Tex. That includes this 
particular area. 

The Chairman. Who is the district supervisor ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. Mr. James C. Kyan. 

The Chairman. How long have you been with the Bureau of Nar- 
cotics, Mr. McGuire ? 

Mr. McGuTLRE. For the past 23 years. 

The Chairman. You have been stationed in various parts of tlie 
TJnited States ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. Yes, sir ; I have. 

The Chairman. San Francisco, New York ? 

Mr. ]\IcGuiRE. That is correct. 

The Chairman. What other places ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. St. Louis, Kansas City, Florida, Georgia, and the 
c^astern seaboard. 

The Chairman. Any seaport city, I suppose, has some narcotic 
problem insofar as being a port of entry is concerned ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. That is correct. Senator. 

The Chairman. What do you find the situation to be in this general 
section, in the Louisiana section? Is there a narcotics problem? 

Mr. McGu^RE. We have the problems comparable to other areas of 
seaport activities, as you mentioned, but this area here, I would say, 
is just about on a par with the others. 

The Chairman. So New Orleans is about comparable with opera- 
tions in any similar sized port doing this kind of business ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. Where does the heroin or morphine come from that co'tnes 
to New Orleans ? 

Mr. McClure. The bulk of the heroin we find is coming from what 
v.-e call district No. 2. That is the New York area. It arrives in that 
city and is shipped here. 

The Chairman. How it is brought here, usually ? 

Mr. McGtit^re. L'^sually by common carrier; by individuals who use 
the ordinary means of transportation, preferably the airplane, and, 
of course, private conveyances. 

The Chairman. What is the cost price of heroin in New Orleans 
today ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. The latest price. Senator, has been quoted about $300 
an ounce. That is a little higher than it has been up to the past 
month. 



280 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. And in New York, if it comes from there, the 
price would be a little lower ? Is that it ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. Oh, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And the further away from the port of entry, or 
the place of entry, the higlier the price ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. The price. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Now, you have got a marijuana problem here; 
haven't you ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. Yes, sir ; that is quite a problem here. Senator. 

The Chairman. Is that one of your major problems ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. I would say it was a little heavier than it should be^ 
or that Ave care to have it at the present time. We are trying to correct 
that condition. 

The Chairjman. Where does the marijuana come from ? 

Mr. McGuiRE, Within the past 5 or 6 weeks we have ascertained 
that the source of the largest amount of marijuana that we had came 
from the Mexican border, from the way of Texas, from Galveston 
and Laredo, Tex. 

The Chairman. Does it come over land, by ship, or both ways ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. In the instant that I am recalling, it came by auto- 
mobile, by a person driving an automobile here in the city, into New 
Orleans. 

The Chairman. Now, there is a good deal of marijuana and other 
sorts of narcotics that come in by boat in the New York harbor? 

Mr. McGuiRE. Into the New York harbor ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I mean in the New Orleans harbor. 

Mr. McGuire. In the New Orleans harbor, yes ; spasmodically the 
arrival of small amounts, but it is not on the scale that it is in New 
York. It isn't a steady stream. It comes at diiferent times, and 
different ways and different boats; no organized method, actually. 

The Chairman. Now, I don't want you, of course, to give any in- 
formation that is going to interfere with your work or to give any 
names that you are investigating, although in executive talks you 
have given some information, but can you tell us anything about the- 
type or the people who handle narcotics in this section ? 

Mr. McGuire. Well, this section. Senator, is probably about the 
same as the usual sections of all addicts. They deal with the usual 
racketeer-type person, and when the man that is handling narcotics 
has not confined himself to any one particular form of racketeering, 
it could be any of the major forms of racketeering. 

The CHAiR:\rAN. You mean you find that people who are in racket- 
eering, generally, are also the people you are looking for in connec- 
tion with narcotics ? 

Mr. McGuire. That is correct. Senator. 

The Chairman. And what places do you usually look for peddlers 
and operators? 

Mr. McGuire. Well, it's been my experience, any place that is more- 
or less open, or a community that tolerates houses of prostitution, 
gambling, or any like condition, would be a perfect field for peddlers 
of narcotics. The gambling element many times have the narcotic 
peddlers itself as a result of their peddling. They use the games of 
gamble and games of chance, or either for their oa\ti pleasures or for 
their own profits. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 281 

The Chairman. You mean around places where other sorts of 
illegal activities are going on, that is where you also find narcotics? 
Mr. McGuiRE. Find narcotics, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Among the characters of the people who are 
engaged in the other type of things that is also where you find your 
narcotics ? 

Mr. McGuiRE, That is quite correct, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you find that narcotic operations from here 
extend into the other parts of the United States ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. Since I have been here, which is limited, Senator, 
I have had at least one occasion of which a man came from the west 
coast to this city in an effort to purchase a supply of narcotics, and 
left here. It was a matter of convenience. He was acquainted here,^ 
had been run out of this particular section and was operating in the 
lower part of California. He returned, hoping to come into the 
cit}'' and secure a supply of narcotics and leave. That is one case 
that I can speak of of my own knowledge. I arrested the man at 
the airport. But there are other cases, of course, of the surround- 
ing 

The Chairman. You had a man who was deported here recently. 
Wliat was his name ? Carollo ? 
Mr, McGuiRE. Sam Carollo. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did he operate in Kansas City or in other cities, 
also? 

Mr. McGuiRE. I have no personal knowledge of him in Kansas City. 
However, I did arrest the man here, in New Orleans, in the years 
gone by, and the files reflect his activities with and around the different 
types, of the same type characters in Kansas City where I did worlc. 
There was a definite connection, and there are friends of Sam Carollo 
here that have been in Kansas City that have worked on, and the men 
from Kansas City have been down in New Orleans within the last 
couple of months. 

The Chairman. I know that all types of people of all nationalities, 
some of the more depraved ones, do deal in narcotics, but do you find 
in this section, and generally, that there is a particular type of person, 
and can you designate the type of person that you most usually find 
in narcotics ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. Well, the general term and the general category 
which they fall into, of course, is unlimited, but in the particular 
phase of it that is causing quite a good bit of investigation work at 
the present time is the so-called Mafia element. That's the poorer class 
of the lower peninsula of the Italian Peninsula. 

The Chairman. What is the so-called Mafia element? How do they 
operate ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. It is a closely knit association: Originally, I have 
been told, the histoiy of it deals wdth the fact that it was originally 
a law-enforcement group. However, it degenerated down into a gi'oup 
of bandits that banded together and for a mutual consent of one 
another, and mutual profit, they have caused a great deal of fear in 
the numbers of people and they passed this on in a very tightly knit 
organization in which they deal among themselves with very limited 
outlets ; making it a difficult problem to get into the very core of the 
organization. 



282 ORGANIZED CRIME LN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. You have seen some of the — you have been here 
during our hearings ; haven't you ? 

Mr, McGuiRE. Yes, sir ; I have. 

The Chairman. And you have given us a great deal of assistance. 
Have you seen some of the Mafia-type people before this committee 
since we have been in New Orleans ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. I'll have to admit I have. 

The Chairman. Some of these people, or any of them without 
specifying names, do you have information that they are engaged in 
narcotic trade or dope trade ? 

Mr. McGuiRE. I would say that our files reflect the fact that they 
have, and I know of my own knowledge that there is quite considerable 
investigation has been made on some of the people that have appeared 
before you, Senator. 

The Chairman. Anything else you can give us that ^vill be of help, 
Mr. McGuire? 

Mr. McGuiRE. No, sir; I think that covers the field quite satisfac- 
torily. I know you are limited on time. Thank you Senator. 

(Witness excused.) 

PURTHER TESTIMONY OF PHILIP FRANK KASTEL, METAIRIE, 
NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOMPANIED BY JAMES O'CONNOR, JR., 
ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

(Mr. Kastel was previously sworn by the chairman.) 

Mr. Rice. We had a few loose ends we left last night. 

One of them was the identity of the officers of the Beverly Club at 
this time. Do you now know the names of these people? 

Mr. IvASTEL. They are in the book ; in the minute book. 

The Chairman. Read them out and ask if they are the ones. 

Mr. O'Connor. I made the arrangement with Mr. [Ralph] Mills, 
Senator, that he would read them out and we would admit they are. 

Mr. Rice. Is this taken from the minute book? The arrangement 
you made with Mr. Mills ? 

Mr. O'Connor. Yes, sir; he has the books there. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Are these the officers ? Phil Kastel, presi- 
dent? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Norma Murphy, acting secretary and treasurer? 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct. 

Mr. Rice. Who is the real secretary and treasurer? 

Mr. Kastel, I think you will find it in the minute book. 

Mr. O'Connor. I explained that to Mr. [Ralph] Mills; I thought 
I would save you time. 

The Chairman. All right. Let's read them all off and ask him. 

Mr. O'CoNOR. Do you want me to read this too ? It will be the same 
as Mr. Kastel testifying; or he will read them out to you. 

The Chairman. Just let him read them out; who the officers are. 

(Witness and counsel confer.) 

The Chairman. Let's get on with it. 

Mr. Rice. Who is the secretary and treasurer? 

Mr. Kastel. Miss Norma Murphy is the acting secretary. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. IvASTEL. Mr. Charles Murphy is the assistant secretary. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE [ 283 

Mr. Rice. Is he tlie accountant? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now then, wlio is Miss Murphy acting for? 

Mr. O'Connor. Edward Rinderle. 

Mr. Kastel. The original incorporators. 

The Chairman. Edward Rinderle. Was he the secretary and trfe^as- 
urer before this Miss Murphy became the acting secretary and treas- 
urer? 

Mr. O'Connor. That is what is reflected here ; sir. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Kastel, who is she acting for? Who is 
the real secretary and treasurer? 

Mr. Kastel. Well the incorporation — when they incorporate, as you 
well know, they may use some people in their own office in order to 
incorporate. I never looked at these minutes for a long time. Miss 
Murphy is acting secretary, I believe, in place of this secretary here. 
I am trying to see whether there is a resignation here [examining 
book] . 

Mr. O'Connor. Rinderle resigned. 

Mr. Kastel. Miss Murphy is acting secretary. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know who Rinderle is? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir ; I do not. 

Mr. Rice. Were you an officer at the time Rinderle was there? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. But you don't know who he is ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know who he is. I believe he is out of the 
attorney's office. 

Mr. 6'CoNNOR. No ; Murphy's. 

Mr. Kastel. Murphy's office. 

Mr. Rice. Oh, Mr. Murphy's office? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so. 

Mr. Rice. All right. So who are the members of the board of . 
directors? ''''''' ''J 

The Chairman. Read them off. - -; // '>. 

Mr. O'Connor. At the present time — go ahead ; excuse me, I cail't 
testify. 

The Chairman. All right. Who is it? 

Mr. O'Connor. Mr. Kastel, Miss Murphy, and Magee, 

Mr. Kastel. Miss Norma Murphy, myself, and Mr. Eugene Magee. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Eugene Magee, 

Mr. Kastel, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is he a stockholder ? 

Mr. Kastel. It isn't necessary to be a stockholder to be a director. 

Mr. Rice. I didn't ask you that. I asked you whether he is a 
stockholder, 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Eugene Magee? 

Mr. Kastel. (No response.) 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't he formerly practicing law in New York? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is he down here now? 

Mr. Kastel. He is down here now ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know where he lives? 

Mr. Ka-stel, I believe at the present he is living in Shreveport. 

68958— 51— pt. 8 19 



284 ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Shreveport? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. IliCE. He is now a member of the board of directors at Beverly. 
Is that correct? 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct, according to the records. 

Mr, Rice. According to you wliat is he ? 

Mr. Kastel. I have to check it. 

Mr. Rice. Aren't yon a member of the board of directors ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now then, last night we had a question 
about the checks 

The CiiAiKMAN. Before you leave this board of directors: This 
Eugene Magee — have you had a directors' meeting at which he has 
been present? 

Mr. Kastel. He has been there. 

The Chairman. How did he get in, coming from New York? 

Mr. Kastel. He has lived here for some time. Senator. 

The Chairman. I- know, but how does he get to be a member of the 
board of directors without any stock? Did you choose him? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, I believe I choosed him; yes. 

The Chairman. Or did somebody else choose him. 

Mr. Kastel. No, I believe I did. 

Mr. Rice. Is Mr. Magee a member of the bar of Louisiana? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Is he a member of the bar in New York ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't it a fact he was disbarred in New York ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that ? 

Mr. Kastel. (No response.) 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Kastel, is he the man? Was he down 
here when you had this lawsuit with the Government and although 
he was not an attorney of record he more or less helped around with 
that big income-tax lawsuit you and Frank Costello had ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, Senator; he acted as sort of an investigator, and 
adviser. 

The Chairman. He came down as an investigator. The fact is, 
Costello Irought him down, didn't he? 

Mr. K.'STEL. ] coiddn't say whether Mr. Costello brought him down. 

The Chairman. You didn't bring him down, did you? 

]\Ir. Kastel. I believe I did. 

The Chairman. But he came down at the time that you had that 
big lawsuit back in 1939 and 1940? 

Mr. Kastel. He came down, I believe, before that. 

The Chairman. Br.t he came down for the purpose of assisting or 
investigating in connection with the defense of that lawsuit? 

Mr. Kastel. He was here at the time. He lived here at the time. 

The Chairman. But you knew him in New York? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairiman. You knew him as a lawyer in New York? 

Mr. Kastel. I knew him as a lawyer ; yes. 

The Chairman. He sort of took direction of that lawsuit down here, 
didn't he? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 285 

Mr. Kastel, He advised. 

The CiiAiRiviAX. He was rather the brains of the legal staff? 

Mr. Kastel. I wouldn't say that. 

The CuAiRMAX. Who were your attorneys of record ? 

Mr. Kastel. Albert Koorie 'handled part of it; Mr. Hugh Wilkin- 
son was also an attorney. 

The Chairmax. All right. Excuse me, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Now, again I invite your attention to check No. 8148 
dated October 28. 1949, in the amount of $3,468.80, to Frank Costello. 
Do j'ou now know the reasons for the drawing of this check on the 
club? 

Mr. Kastel. That is for salary for the months of June, July, August, 
and September of 1949, less the deductions. 

Mr. Rice. That is 4 months, less the deductions? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. Totaling $3,468.80. 

Mr. Rice. That is a thousand dollars a month ; four thousand, less 
deductions 

Mr. Kastel. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Due Frank Costello, And what was that for? 

Mr. Kastel. Salary. 

Mr. Rice. And what was his job, again? 

Mr. Kastel. Doing good-will work. 

Mr. Rice. He was your good-will ambassador? 

Mr. Kastel. I wouldn't say about the ambassador part, but he was 
doing good-will Avork, and looking after and advising on entertain- 
ment. 

Mr. Rice. Would it be fair to say that your good-will ambassador 
is sometimes known as the crown prince of the underworld? 

Mr. O'Connor. I object to that. 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, I show you a check dated February 1, 1950, in 
the sum of $2,250 drawn to I. George Goldstein & Co., 744 Broad 
Street, Newark, N. J., signed by Philip Kastel for the Beverly, and 
ask you if you knoAv for what purpose that check was drawn ? 

Mr. Kastel. I will have to get the books. 

The Chairman. That is the Mr. Goldstein who kept books for Meyer 
Lansky, I believe. 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he sent a bill for some work that he had done. 
I believe that is the last payment that he has received. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, what work was he doing for you in 1950 ? 

( W^itness examines records.) 

Mr. Rice. Well, sir, can you tell us from independent recollection 
what Goldstein was doing in 1950? Meyer Lansky left there in 
1948, if I remember your former testimony. 

Mr. Kastel. He continued on for a while, I believe. He continued 
on for a while and sent us a bill. 

Mr. Rice. He continued on doing what ? 

Mr. Kastel. Continued looking at the records and advising as to 
overhead. He had had some experience in other establishments, and 
it was just 

Mr. Rice. AYait a minute. He had experience in what other estab- 
lishments ? 



286 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Kastel. He said he had experience in other establishments, 
other restaui;ants, hotels that he was handling. 

Mr. Rice. Casinos? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know about casinos. 

Mr. Rice. In Florida ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Plantation, Boheme, Colonial — did he mention any of 
those ? Greenacres ? 

Mr. Kastel. I do not know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. He was advising you, and what else? 

Mr. Kastel. Advising about overhead. 

Mr. Rice. So that he was, at that time, rendering some sort of service 
to the Beverly, or to yourself rather than to. Meyer Lansky. Is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Kastel. Well, he was in there originally through Mr. Lansky, 
and finally, why, this check ended his engagement and paid him off 
in full. 

Mr. Rice. This was the last work he did ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so. 

Mr. Rice. This was the last work ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe so. I believe he sent the bill in ; we paid it. 

Mr. Rice. I believe I asked you last night if you could account for 
his having had financial statements subsequent to the date of that 
check, in his New Jersey office, from the Beverly. Can you account 
for that? 

Mr. Kastel. Well, instructions were given that he receive state- 
ments while he was acting for Mr. Lansky, and they apparently were 
continued until I gave him instructions to stop them. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever given instructions to stop them ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe I did ; yes. 

Mr. Rice. Can you fix the time, approximately? 

Mr. I^\STEL. I could'not fix the time unless I saw the records. It 
may be this time or may be a little before, or a little after. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, I show you check No. 9357, dated March 16, 
1950, in the sum of $647 drawn in favor of B. C. Wills & Co., 666 East 
Columbia Street, Detroit, over your signature. Can you tell me the 
purpose of that check? [Handing document to witness.] 

Mr. Kastel. I would have to see the invoice. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know what business the Wills & Co. is in ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Doesn't the Wills company manufacture and sell dice 
tables and other gambling paraphernalia? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Can you look up in your invoices and 
see what your records show was the reason for drawing that check? 
Can you do that, sir? 

Mr. Kastel. Can I? 

JNIr. Rice, Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. You have tlie books; you have the records. 

ISIr. Rice. You have the records down there. 

Mr. O'Connor. They don't run that high (referring to invoice docu- 
ments on witness table.) 

Mr. Ralph Mills. That is all he broua-ht in. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 287 

Mr. O'CoxxoR. Tliat is all you told me to bring in. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know the reason for drawing that check from 
your independent recollection ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Haven't you Avritten a number of checks to that company? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

INIr. Rice. Have you ever transacted any business with that 
company ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that it 
may tend to incriminate me. 

The CiiAiRMAx. Well, Mr. Kastel, this is a company up in Detroit, 
Mich. B. C. Wills & Co. Did you ever hear of the company ? 

Mr. Kastel. Do I have to answer that question, Senator? 

The CiiAiRMAX. Well, I am asking you. I think we ought to know 
wdiat this is about. 

Mr. Kastel. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, here is a check. No. 813, dated March 22, 1946, 
payable to the order of Cudney & Co., in the amount of $8,959.34. I 
wonder if you can tell us what Cudney & Co. is, in Chicago? Tell 
us what was the reason for drawing that check [handing document to 
witness]. 

Mr. Kastel. It must be in payment of a bill for supplies. 

Mr. Rice. What sort of supplies? 

Mr. Kastel. Meat supplies. 

Mr. Rice. Now, you remember that all right, don't you, back in 1946. 

Mr. Kastel. I know the name. 

Mr. Rice. Does that help to refresh your recollection on Wills & Co. 
now? 

Mr. O'Connor. Let me pardon you at that. He didn't say he didn't 
remember on Wills. I don't believe he put it on that ground, if I am 
not mistaken, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Let's get it straight, then. You do know what the reason 
for the Wills & Co. check was ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, I show you check No. 8196, drawn November 9, 
1949, in the sum of $100, payable to the Twenty-fourth Ward Demo- 
cratic Organization, 3726 West Roosevelt Road, Chicago, 111., over 
your signature for the Beverly Country Club. Can you tell us what 
was the reason for drawing that check ? 

Mr. Kastel. That was for an advertisement, I believe. 

]Mr. Rice. That was for what ? ' 

Mr. Kastel. An ad. 

Mr. Rice. What type of an ad ? 

Mr. Kastel. An ad in a booklet. 

Mr. Rice. In what booklet? 

Mr. Kastel. In connection with this organization. 

Mr. Rice. What type of booklet ? What was the booklet about ? 

Mr. Chairman. Well, who solicited you for that hundred dollars? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe I w^as solicited through the mail, by someone 
that I knew. 

The Chairman. Do you know a fellow named Elrod ? 



288 ORGANIZED CRIME IiN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir; I do. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he was the one that solicited 
you ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir ; he was not tlie one that solicited it. 

The Chairman. I believe that the twenty-fourth ward is his ward. 
That's the reason I was asking you. 

Mr. Kastel. That is possible, Senator. I know Commissioner 
Elrod. 

The Chairman. Do you make other contributions advertisements 
like that ? Is this a contribution or an advertisement ? Do you know ? 

Mr. Kastel. This was for an ad, for an ad in a booklet. 

The Chairman. Do you do that generally for political parties that 
get out booklets? 

Mr. Kastel. Not necessarily for political parties, Senator. As they 
come up if we think they have enough circulation, why, we might do it. 

The Chairman. You mean it is purely on a commercial basis then ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You haven't any political feeling about it? Are 
you trying to help a political party ? 

Mr. Kastel. I have no political interests there in Chicago at all. 

Mr. Rice. How much a year do you think you put into political book- 
lets and things of that sort? 

Mr. Kastel. Not very much, Senator. 

The Chairman. Do you make political contributions out of the 
Beverly Country Club? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do any customers ever come into the place and say they 
have read your ad in the twenty-fourth ward booklet and for that 
reason came to the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Now, I show you check No. 8308, dated November 16, 
1949, in the amount of $600 drawn in favor of the Munholland Me- 
morial Church recreation center, over your signature, and ask you if 
you know for what purpose that check was drawn ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe that was solicited by one of the ministers. 

Mr. Rice. Reverend Dawson? ^ 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. !. j 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Reverend Dawson ? 

Mr. Kastel. I would know him if I saw him. 

Mr. Rice. You would know him if you saw him ? 

Mr. Kastel. I say, I would know him if I saw him. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible that is Reverend Dawson's recreational 
center there ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say. 

The Chairman. Reverend Dawson said he had never personally 
solicited it but he thought the church had received some. 

Mr. Rice. I think he said that the sheriff had gone out and done 
a little voluntary soliciting for him. Would that refresh your recol- 
lection of it ? The sheriff brought it over to his office. 

Mr. Kastel. Somebody solicited me; told me it was for a good 
cause. 

Mr. Rice. Could it have been Clancy ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

The Chairman. All right ; let's get on please. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 289 

Anything else ? 

Mr. EiCE. Xow here is a check. No. 9939, dated June 6, 1950, lor 
$14.40, to the Cipango Chib at Galveston, Tex. Do you know what 
that is for ? 

Mr. Kastel. That is for dues, I believe. 

Mr. Rice. That is what ? 

Mr. Kastel. For dues, and membership in the Cipango Club. 

Mr. Rice. What type of club is that ? 

Mr. Kastel. It is a restaurant, a private club. 

Mr. Rice. And who is the member of the club? Is Beverly Club 
the member of the Cipango Club ? 

Mr. Kastel. Xo; the membership is in my name. I believe I au- 
thorized this check and told them to charge it to me personally. 

Mr. Rice. So that you are a member of the Cipango Club? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. In checking telephone calls, toll calls, 
person to person, from your home phone we find that on July 18, 
1949, you called Lenor Josie at Capital 6223, Houston, Tex. Can you 
tell us what transaction you had w^ith Josie? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that it 
is private. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Lenor Josie ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. On April 10, 1950, you placed a call to Artie Samish, 
at 2400, Hot Springs, Ark. Phone 2400. That is the Arlington up 
there, is it not? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe it is. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Artie Samish ? 

Mr. Kastel. A friend of mine. 

Mr. Rice. What transaction did you discuss on April 10 ? 

Mr. Kastel. No transaction. 

Mr. Rice. What was the nature of the conversation ? 

Mr. Kastel. A social call. 

Mr. Rice. What is Samish? 

The Chairman. Is he the Artie Samish from California? 

Mr. Kastel. From San Francisco, Senator. 

The Chairman. Well-known man in public life, or something or 
other out there ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, on April 14, 1950, you made a person-to-person call 
to John Grosch, at Hot Springs. Can you tell us the subject matter 
of that telephone call ? Do you know John Grosch ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wlio is he ? 

Mr. Kastel. He is the present sheriff of the parish of Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. What was the reason for your making that call to Grosch 
on that date? 

Mr. Kastel. I can't remember. I couldn't tell you off'hand. 

Mr. Rice. Do you recall calling Grosch at Hot Springs? 

M'r. Kastel. I may have called him. If the call is there on the 
record I admit to the call. 

Mr. Rice. Have you called Grosch more than one time at Hot 
Springs ? 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't say, unless the record is there. 



290 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, going back to a question you were asked last 
night, about this loan of $75,000 from the Mills Novelty Co. in Chi- 
cago: Would it refresh your recollection any if I would suggest to 
you that this loan was made for the purpose of purchasing a quantity 
of liquor, which was in the custody of the customs office at New York 
at that time ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir ; that I can't remember. 

Mr. O'Connor. I didn't liear the question. He wanted to know 
whether you had borrowed $75,000 from Mills? 

The Chairman. Well, we asked about whether you borrowed $75,000 
from Mills last night and you said you were going to think it over 
and try to refresh your recollection on it. Have you refreshed your 
recollection ? 

Mr. Kastel. I believe I have ; yes. The answer is "Yes."' 

Mr. Rice. What was that transaction? 

Mr. Kastel. Well, the transaction is a little hazy in my mind, but 
T know the money was sent to buy some liquor that was to be auc- 
tioned off. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. I remember it. It was a long time ago. 

Mr. Rice. Who had that liquor? 

M'r. Kastel. I think it was in the hands of the Federal Government. 

Mr. Rice. A man named Farley have anything to do with it ? 

Mr. Kastel. Farley? I couldn't say. 

The Chairman. Sheriff Foley. 

Mr. Kastel. It's so long ago I couldn't say. 

The Chairman. You remember Sheriff Foley? 

Mr. Kastel. The name registers, but I didn't know the man per- 
sonally. 

Mr. Rice. Did the deal go through ? Did you acquire the liquor ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't believe it did. 

Mr. Rice. You don't believe it went through ? 

Mr. ICastel. It didn't go through. 

Mr. Rice. But the money was borrowed ? 

Mr. Kastel. The money was borrowed, and returned. 

Mr. Rice. From the Mills Novelty Co. in Chicago ? 

Mr. Kastel. I didn't do business with the Mills Novelty Co. I 
did business with an individual by the name of Fred Mills. 

Mr. Rice. Fred Mills? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And Fred Mills in turn is connected with the Mills 
Novelty Co. ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In that transaction, Frank Costello joined with you, 
didn't he? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't believe he had anything to do with it, Senator, 
I believe. 

The Chairman. I believe you and he saw Mills together — and that is 
the note that was given by you and Costello, was it not? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't believe Mr. Costello's name was on the note. 

Mr. Rice. Just your name was on the note ? 

Mr. Kastel. I think so. I don't know whether there was a note 
given. 

Mr. Rice. Did he guarantee the note along with you ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 291 

Mr. Kastel. Who did? 

Mr. Rice. Costello. 

Mr. Kastel. I couldn't answer that question. 

Mr. Rice. Did he enter into the transaction in any way whatsoever ? 

Mr. Kastel. Not to my l^nowledge. 

The Chairman. Who saw Mills in Chicago to negotiate the matter ? 

Mr. Kastel. I did. 

The Chairman. You went out to see him ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't know whether I went out. I was out there on 
several occasions. I don't know whether I saw him in Chicago on 
that particular transaction or I saw him in New York. 

Mr. Rice. We have a record here which indicates that the amount 
of $75,000 was granted on an unsecured note of Costello. Does that 
refresh your recollection ? 

Mr. Kastel. Unsecured note ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Kastel. Unless I saw the note, that doesn't refresh my recol- 
lection at all. 

Mr. Rice. Your best recollection, then, is that Costello did not par- 
ticipate in the deal ? 

Mr. Kastel. My best recollection is that I made the — he made the 
check out to my order and I deposited it in the bank. 

Mr. Rice. Mills did ? 

Mr. Kastel. Sir? 

Mr. Rice. That Mills made the check out to your order? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What did you give Mills ? 

Mr. Kastel. I gave him — I may have given him a note. I don't 
remember. 

Mr. Rice. Well, was your note secured by any collateral ? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Just your signature? 

Mr. Kastel. That's right. If it was a note, it was secured by my 
signature. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible that you borrowed the money just on your 
word? 

Mr. Kastel. Maybe. 

The Chairman. Anything else ? 

Now, Mr, O'Connor, do you want to ask your client any questions 
to clear up any mattisrs ? . 

Mr. O'Connor. The only question — I spoke with Mr. [Ralph] 
Mills today. Senator — was about the hotel bill of Frank Costello. 
Costello never did use the rooms of Mr. Kastel. He used other rooms 
and when he checked out of the hotel, they would charge that to 
KastePs room, and Costello would then pay for that later, to Kastel. 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct. 

Mr. O'Connor. Is that correct, Mr. Kastel? 

Mr. Kastel. That is correct. On many occasions. 

The Chairman. Did you examine the hotel records? 
Mr. O'Connor. No. I ascertained that last night, sir, from I think 
it was Mr. Broussard, Mr. Murphy's accountant. 

The Chairman. For your information, I might tell you that 

Mr. O'Connor. Now, I don't make that as a matter of fact; I am 
only saying what I was told last night. 



292 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. That Mr. Kiley examined the original records, 
and anyway the records that he examined, so he reports to us, show 
what I stated last night : which we have here. 

Mr. O'Connor. Well, they reflected it was charged to room 562, but 
that doesn't mean the party occupied room 562. 

The Chairman. Oh, surely; that's true. You can register in a 
hotel room and may not occupy it. That's true. 

Mr. O'Connor. I don't mean, Senator, that I don't think you get 
what I mean. He can occupy room 416 and when he checked out say, 
"Charge that to 562." Mr. Kastel has an accountant. 

The Chairman. Well, in any event, the records at the Roosevelt 
Hotel show that beginning in 1936 and ending 1950, March 2, 1950, 
Frank Costello was here at least 44 times for a total of 466 days, 
and that the number of days are set out and each particular time. 
The records further show that during the above-mentioned visits at 
which time he usually occupied, accompanied by his wife, Loretta, 
he made the Hotel Roosevelt his headquarters. Phil Kastel also 
maintains an apartment. From March 2, to March 11, 1946, he used 
Kastel's apartment. On two occasions, March 2, 1946, and June 28, 
1946, the hotel bills were charged to room 1252, Phil Kastel's account. 

Mr. Kastel. That is a long time ago. 

The Chairman. April 15, 1945 

Mr. O'Connor. Wouldn't that be 1935, for 1252, Senator? 

The Chairman. No; that is 1946. 

Mr. Kastel. 1946. 

The Chairman. March 11, 1946. 

Mr. O'Connor. To room 1252, sir? 

The Chairman. No. Then, 1943 to room 1252. On April 15, 1945, 
he was "with Gerald Cateno of East Orange, N. J.," and on his last 
visit here, January 17, 1950 to March 2, 1950 

Mr. O'Connor. He didn't occupy your suite, did he ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

The Chairman. That brings in some other names we don't want 
to bring in here. 

Mr. O'Connor. The last time he was here. Senator, does the record 
reflect he occupied the suite of Mr. Kastel ? 

The Chairman. This report was gotten up before New Year's, when 
he was here last. 

Is there anything else ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes; on those hotel rooms: Has it ever occurred that the 
room occupied by Costello — the expenses for that — have they ever been 
charged to Beverly? 

Mr. Kastel. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. The Beverly never pays for any of those things ? 

Mr. Kastel. No. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, that Lenor Josie we spoke about a minute ago : 
Isn't he in the oil business ? 

Mr. O'Connor. You can answer that. 

Mr. Kastel. I believe he is. 

Mr. Rice. Well, hasn't he been in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What does he do in the club ? 

Mr. Kastel. Eats and drinks. 

Mr. Rice. Anything else? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 293 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

]SIr. Rice. Did j^ou ever see him in the casino ? 

Mr. Kastel. I "refuse to answer that question on the ground it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever have any business transactions with him? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the ground it nuiy 
tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Rice. Are you interested in any venture witli him ? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Who is this we are talking about ? 

Mr. Kastel. Lenor Josie, oil man from Texas. 

The Chairman. Well, you refuse to tell what business transactions 
you had with him? 

Mr. O'Connor. May I ask him a question, Senator ? Was it private 
transactions ? What transactions did you have with him ? 

The Chairman. All right. What is your answer ? 

Mr. Kastel. Whether I had any private transactions ? 

The Chairman. You were asked about whether you had any busi- 
ness transactions with him. 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds it may 
tend to incriminate me. 

The Chairman. Well, you do have some oil interests, don't you, in 
Texas? 

Mr. Kastel. Xo, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any oil interests anywhere ? 

Mr. Kastel. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where is that? 

Mr. Kastel. In Louisiana. 

Mr. Rice. In what field ? 

Mr. Kastel. I don't see any reason for going into my private affairs. 

Mr. Rice. Pickens Field? 

Mr. Kastel. I refuse to answer that question. 

Tlie Chairman. All right. Is there anything else ? 

Mr. Kastel, you will be continued under subpena. My personal 
recommendation will be that some of these questions you had no right 
to answer. You have in some matters been cooperative, but some 
questions I can's see how you can rightfully refuse to answer. 

The record will be very closely studied in that regard. That is 
all, Mr. O'Connor. 

Mr. O'Connor. Thank you, sir. 

With reference to my records 

(Discussion concerning return of records.) 

The Chairman. I will give you my assurance you will get them 
back not later than Monday at 4. 
(Witness excused.) 

STATEMENT OF ALBERT SALZER, METAIRIE, LA., ACCOMPANIED 
BY ROBERT WEINSTEIN AND THOMAS E. WICKER, ATTORNEYS, 
NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. Mr. Salzer, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 



294 ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Salzer. I do. 

The Chairman. Wliere do you live, Mr. Salzer ? 

Mr. Salzer. 106 Mulberry Drive, Metairie. 

The Chairman. Wliat town? 

Mr. Salzer. Metairie. That's no town, it's in Jefferson Parish. 

Mr. Weinsit^in. Mr. Chairman, may I say something, please, sir ? 

The Chairman. Just a minute. Let me find out : Metairie, is that 
a parish? 

Mr. Salzer. It is a subdivision, sir. It is in Jefferson Parish. 

The Chairman. All right. Mr. Weinstein, do you want to say 
something ? 

Mr. Weinstein. Yes, sir. The first thing we would like to raise, 
and I know Your Honor's ruling on it because I have seen it raised 
before you during these proceedings, is that we insist upon the at- 
tendance of a legal quorum of this committee before proceeding 
further. Should it be here ruled that we are not entitled to this 
relief, or that the number of members present now are sufficient to 
constitute a quorum and compel the witness to testify, he does so 
under protest, and reserves all of his rights in the premises. He must 
make this objection to protect his rights under the decisions of the 
Supreme Court of the United States. And we would like it under- 
stood, if possible, Mr. Chairman, that throughout the testimony, that 
this objection will be considered as having been raised without the 
necessity of repetition. 

The Chairman. Well, that can be understood, Mr. Weinstein. 

Mr. Weinsitsin. Now, one other thing, Mr. Chairman : I would like 
to make a few observations, and I assure you that they are made in the 
spirit of cooperation, but at the same time strongly without in any 
way waiving any of our client's rights, but the observations are being 
made because we deem it necessary for the protection of our client's 
rights. In other words, I do not want the chairman to feel that we 
just want to be technical about the situation. 

The Chairman. All right, I will appreciate your cooperation. 

Mr. Weinstein. Yes, sir. Now, Mr. Chairman, it happens that I 
was an assistant United States attorney for this district for approxi- 
mately 15 years, and resigned as United States attorney in July 1948, 
and during that period of time it would naturally — well, put it this 
way : You just get it into your blood to worry about the constitutional 
lights of prospective defendants and defendants in legal proceeditigs. 
J low, when we will urge the constitutional right of Mr. Salzer against 
iftlf^incrimination, I would like that this honorable committee will 
1!] iclerstancl we are doing it in good faith and we would like to present 
llli e reasons for this objection to testifying. 

The Chairman. All right, sir. 

Mr. Weinstein. Now, first, I know that objections must be urged by 
11; B witness, but before you ask any question, for the sake of saving 
time, I might say, and in the light of the rulings which I have seen 
during the last — during today and yesterday — I want to make a few 
observations. We have a situation here, Mr. Chairman, and I would 
like the record to reflect this: That right on this side, in the grand- 
jury box, we have the name of Mr. Lambert, Intelligence Unit, Treas- 
ury De])artment, and right here we have the name of Mr. Holt, Intelli- 
gence Unit, Treasury Department. We have His Honor, Mr. Lansing 
Mitchell, assistant United States attorney for this district, sitting right 



ORGANIZED CRIME liN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 295 

on the bench with Your Honor; and I know — that is, I saw today Mr. 
Delaney, with the Immigration Department — and I do not know who 
else is here, but I would imagine that all of the enforcement agencies 
of the United States and the State of Louisiana are interested in this 
proceeding. I do not say that meaning that they shouldn't be. I 
think they should. I do not say that in a critical vein, but I do say 
to you, Mr. Chairman, that in the light of that you can well under- 
stand that a witness who takes the stand in this proceeding might feel 
a little more being in a dangerous position as he would feel under 
ordinary circumstances. I am now, I hope, talking common sense. 
As I would feel if I were sitting before this honorable committee, and 
I believe like most every individual who would be sitting to testify 
before you. 

Now, furthermore, I should like to call to the attention of this 
honorable committee [obtaining document], one exhibit which we 
would like to mark for identification "Salzer-1" which says : 

law oflBcers here face income probe. Senator Kefauver will conduct New Orleans 
hearing. Officials of the United States Treasury Department in New Orleans 
were consulted today by investigators for the Kefauver Senate Crime Committee 
in a probe into the incomes of law-enforcement officers in the New Orleans area. 

I know that Mr. Salzer is not a law-enforcement official. However, 
you gentlemen know his type of business which will be brought out. 

The CHAiRMAisr. Let this be made exhibit 1. The thing you have 
there. That is from the New Orleans 

Mr. WEiNSTEiiSr. This is the New Orleans States, Tuesday, January 
23, 1951. 

(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 24," and is on file with 
the committee. ) 

Mr. Weinstein. Mr. Salzer is not a law-enforcement official, but 
you gentlemen know his occupation and you gentlemen have heard 
testimony today relating to the place where he works and you can 
see from the type of questions involved that you will ask him and of 
other witnesses whom you have subpenaecl that this gentleman would 
have some reason to fear that this investigation would endanger his 
liberty under the Federal laws, particularly the income tax laws. We 
know that the Supreme Court has held against the application about 
using the State law as a possibility of being prosecuted under the State 
law, as being a reason w^hy you can not testify before this committee. 
However, we urge that as an objection, too, because we can't tell what 
the Supreme Court might do when it comes up again. 

Now, just one more statement about the law: I have heard ques- 
tions by the honorable counsel for this committee wherein he tries 
to pin a particular witness down to practically say "I violated a Fed- 
eral law." 

The Chairman. Mr. Weinstein, Club Forrest, I understand, is a 
corporation, and all we want to know — we haven't anything against 
Mr. Salzer. We just want to — he is custodian of the books; we are 
not trying to do anything with him. 

Mr. Weinstein. Well, very good, then. 

The Chairman. I don't want to cut you off. 

Mr. Weinstein. No, sir. I am not here to make a speech. I am 
just trying to protect the rights of my client. 

The Chairman. Well, you have made a pretty good speech^ but 
let's see if you can bring it to a conclusion. 



296 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Weinstein. I will conclude right now ; if all you want is books, 
we've got them. 

The Chairman. No; I don't want to cut you off. We may have 
something else to ask him about so you make any other point that 
you want to. 

Mr. Weinstein. Well, my speech will be, you might say I will make 
it so long, I'll put it in proportion to the amount of questions you 
might ask, and I don't know that, so I'll just compromise and make 
it a little bit longer. 

Mr. Rice. Let us ask the questions. 

The Chairman. No, let him — no, he 

Mr. Weinstein. I'd like to do this because I know the kind of ques- 
tions you are going to ask, Mr. Eice. I have been listening to them 
for 2 days. 

Mr. Rice. You know more than I do then, because I don't know, 
myself. 

Mr. Weinstein. Then you are going to change your mind on the 
type of questions ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sure. 

The Chairman. Mr. Weinstein is about to wind up. Let's make 
any other point you wish, sir. 

Mr. Weinstein. All right. Let us see. When Mr. Rice was ques- 
tioning various people here, and 1 do not say this in a critical form. 
I admire the gentleman for trying to do an excellent job, but at the 
same time, I have a job to do, too, and I think that this committee, 
and the members of this staff, instead of looking down upon someone 
who tries to protect the constitutional rights of his clients, should 
look upon them with a little respect and say, "Well, anyhow, you 
are trying to do a fair job for your client." 

The Chairman. Mr. Weinstein, have you heard us criticize any 
lawyers ? 

Mr. Weinstein. No sir; but I have seen some witnesses criticized 
for not having testified when they have exercised their constitutional 
rights. 

The Chairman. Well, now, make any other point you might want 
to make. 

Mr. Weinstein. Yes, sir. All right. JSIr. Rice as I see it, has 
asked witnesses practically "Do you have something specific in your 
mind which would tend to incriminate you ? " and then "Is it a mat- 
ter which comes under the Federal law?" and then, "About when 
did that take place? Was it last year? This year?" — and so on. 
If that was the situation, Mr. Chairman, then the Constitution, 
fourth and fifth amendments, would mean nothing. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Weinstein. Furthermore, it isn't a matter of course, it can't 
be a fanciful proposition, but it must be — but if it is reasonable, if 
it is something that a person in honest, good intent 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Weinstein 

Mr. Weinstein. All right, sir. 

The Cpiairman. Suppose we pass on to something else besides the 
law on self-incrimination. 

Mr. Weinstein. All right, then, I will proceed to sit down as you 
direct. 

The Chairman. Will you proceed with the witness, Mr. Rice? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 297 

Mr. Rice. Are you appearing here in response to a subpena? 

Mr. Weixstein. On that I would like to make this observation. 

Mr. Rice. Now, wait a minute. 

Mr. Weinstein. I've got a right to say this, and I'll tell you 
why 

Mr. Rice.. I don't know about that, either. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. The witness was asked whether he 
was appearing here in answer to a subpena. 

Mr. Weinstein. That is what I want to say. 

The Chairman. Just a minute, Mr. Weinstein : let the witness an- 
swer that question. Then we will let you make an observation. 

Were you subpenaed to come here and bring certain books? 

Mr. Salzer. I was. 

Mr. Chairman. Now what did you want to say? 

Mr. Weinstein. What I wanted to say is this : Under the immunity 
statute, as Your Honor knows and Mr. Rice knows, you have got to 
protect 3^ourself, and say that you are appearing here under compul- 
sion, not voluntary, and I want to make that statement to Your Honor. 

The Chairman. We understand he is appearing here not volun- 
tarily, but under compulsion by virtue of subpena served upon him. 

Mr. Weinstein. That's right,' sir ; and we'd like that on all questions 
without the necessity of repetition. 

The Chair3ian. That's right. We will let — Mr. Salzer has some- 
thing there he wants to read. 

Mr. Salzer. Not yet. 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on, Mr. Rice. We are far 
behind. 

Mr. Rice. In response to subpena, are certain books and records 
here now, Mr. Salzer? 

Mr. Salzer. Sir? 

Mr. Rice. In response to the subpena which you received, are there 
certain books and records here now? 

Mr. Salzer. They were brought here, as far as I know. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. All right, sir. Now, where are you employed? 

Mr. Weinstein. That's right, sir; and we'd like that on all ques- 
tions which might be asked in the future without the necessity of 
repetition. 

The Chairman. Well, now, let's see what books and records he has 
brought. 

Mr. Rice. What books and records did you bring? 

]Mr. Salzer. With me, today? I mean yesterday? At the time 
they subpenaed me they told me to bring the several remaining books, 
which we needed to operate, with me when I came here yesterday 
morning, but it was several days ago, I don't know exactly when they 
came and subpenaed all of the l)ooks since the time the club opened, 
and they took them off in an automobile. I presume they are here. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

Mv. Salzer. And the report they told me to bring, I brought with 
me yesterday. 

Mr. Rice. What is your job at the club ? 

Mr. Weinstein. Your Honor, at this time I would like him to read 
this so that we will cover that 

The Chairman. Let's get the name of the club more specifically. 
What is your job with the Forrest Club in Jefferson Parish ? 



298 ORGANIZED CRIME lOST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Salzer. May I read this, please ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Salzer. At this time, in order to protect my rights under the 
Federal and State Constitutions, I would like to have included in the 
record the following objections which I have to appearing here today 
and also to the question you have asked and any similar ones. I want 
to make it perfectly clear that I am appearing at this hearing only in 
obedience to a subpena issued by the authority of the Senate Crime 
Investigating Committee. My appearance is not voluntary, and any- 
thing that I might say during the course of this hearing will not be 
voluntary, but will only be because I have been forced to come here 
and testify. I intend to waive no right, at any time, during my testi- 
mony. The Senate resolution under which this committee is operating 
could not possibly cover testimony which would be elicited from me. 
My activities are strictly local and could have no possible bearing on 
interstate commerce. The question which I will be subjected to must 
necessarily be immaterial and not pertinent to your inquiry and, 
therefore, not permissible. I am asserting the privilege against self- 
incrimination as embodied in the fourth, fifth, and fourteenth amend- 
ments to the Federal Constitution, and article 1, section 2, of the 
Louisiana State Constitution, in that the testimony attempted to be 
elicited from me might tend to incriminate me under the Federal laws 
and also, at the same time, under the State laws. The purpose of the 
questions to be asked me is to attempt to disgrace me, and such being 
the case, I have a right not to answer your questions. 

Mr. Rice. Now, did you write that, sir ? 

Mr. Salzer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who wrote that? 

Mr. Weinstein. I did. 

Mr. Salzer. My attorney, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, what is your job at Club Forest? 

Mr. Weinstein. He just — go ahead and answer it. 

Mr. Rice. What is the answer to the question ? 

Mr. Salzer. I've got another piece here I didn't read. 

The Chairman. Order in the court. 

Mr. Rice. Can't you just tell me what your job is? 

Mr. Weinstein. Read that. 

Mr. Salzer. I would rather read this, sir. 

JMr. Rice. You would rather read this paper. 

Mr. Weinstein. If he wants to read a piece of paper which makes 
him stand on constitutional rights, a strong piece of paper 

The Chairman. Did you write it ? 

Mr. AVeinstein. I wrote it ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How do you know what he wants ? 

Mr. Weinstein. How do I know what he wants? 

The Chairman. Mr. Weinstein, sit down, now, you are getting too 
unnecessarily excited. 

Mr. Weinstein. I know, but you would, too. Senator, if you hear 
those kind of statements, when you represented a person. 

The Chairman. I don't think I'd get excited about the first ques- 
tions, I would wait until two or three more. 

]Mr. Reporter, what is the question? 

(The reporter read the question.) 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a job ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 299 

Mr. Salzer. Witli the greatest deference to this honorable com- 
mittee I refuse to answer that question because I feel that the answer 
therefore might tend to incriminate me and be dangerous to me. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, just tell us — lay the paper ahead — tell us what 
your job is, what do you do for a living? 

Mr. Weinstein. Just a minute, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to be 
technical about this. Before you rule, I'd like you, please, to ask him 
some questions and make up your mind whether you think he should 
be forced to testify. I don't want to be in a position of being tech- 
nical; I really don't. I know you appreciate his position, and I ask 
you to ask him some questions before you make up, and then decide on 
that issue. 

The Chairman. He looks like an intelligent man, and a man that 
inight want to do the right thing, and I hate to get in trouble with 
him. I think if he didn't have so many papers here to read, we might 
get along all right. 

Mr. Weinstein. Well, Senator, I am not here to get him in trouble. 

The Chairman. Well, do you represent him or do you represent 
this club, Mr. Weinstein ? 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, let's just lay the paper aside for the moment 
and tell us what your job is. What do you do for a living? 

Mr. Weinstein. I represent this individual, and — you mean the 
club as a corporation, as a retained client? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Weinstein. I do not represent the corporation as a retained 
client. 

The Chairman. Do you represent the owners of the club, whatever 
it is? 

Mr. Weinstein. In what way? 

The Chairman. I mean in their litigation. Do you represent the 
Mills brothers ? 

Mr. Weinstein. In what? 

The Chairman. Well, in whatever lawsuits they may have. 

Mr. Weinstein. Whatever lawsuits they may have? The answer 
is "No." 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Weinstein, have j^ou ever taken a fee from either 
Club Forrest or from Henry, Arthur G., or Frank B. Mills, Edwin 
Litolf, Alfred B. Schorling, Victor Gallo, Gonzales Azcona, or any 
one of them ? 

Mr. Weinstein. Of course ; let's don't let that appear I am answer- 
ing something contrary from what you asked me, Mr. Senator. 

The Chairman. What I want to know is, are you here to look after 
this man or are you looking after the interests of some of these people 
you say you have taken a fee from ? 

Mr. Weinstein. I am here representing, at this moment, Mr. Al 
Salzer, who understands exactly what this gentleman has just pointed 
out — that we have had a fee from Club Forrest ; of course we have. 

The Chairman. That is all we want to know. 

Mr. Klein. A simple question, and simple answers. 

The Chairman. Are you representing Club Forrest here, or are you 
representing Mr. Salzer? 

Mr. Weinstein. Right now ? I am representing Mr. Salzer. 

68958— 51— pt. 8 20 



300 ORGANIZED CRIME LN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Who is paying your fee, or who will pay your fee, 
or do you know has that been discussed yet ? 

Mr. Weinstein. We have had a fee paid. 

The Chairman. Club Forrest or b}^ this man ? 

Mr. Weinstein. I think it was by Club Forrest. 

The Chairman. Then you don't seem to be representing this man ? 

Mr. EiCE. What individual in Club Forrest do you represent? 

Mr. Weinstein. I want to say 

The Chairman. Here is the whole thing about it : This man's rights 
may be entirely contradictory to the rights of Club Forrest, and I 
know you are a tine lawyer, and I am sure you are a good ethical 
lawyer, but I don't want this man to get into trouble, and 1 don't think 
he is going to if we can get on with this examination, but if you are 
representing Club Forrest, that is an entirely different thing. 

Mr. Weinstein. Mr. Chairman, if you go and talk to the reputable 
members of this bar 

The Chairman. Well, let's 

Mr. Weinstein. I know, but you are now raising implications on me. 

The Chairman. I only asked you about who paid your fee for repre- 
senting this man. 

Mr. Weinstein. I told you, and I am here representing this man, 
personally, right now, and it's up to him to decide who he wants to 
represent him. I think if you went ahead with the questions you'd 
get what you want. 

The Chairman. All right. Well, Mister, let's see if we get along 
now. 

Mr. Weinstein. All right. 

The Chairman. Mr. Salzer, have you got the books and records 
of, or certain books and records ; were they in your possession out at 
Club Forrest? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes, sir ; they were. 

Mr. Rice. And did you bring those books and records in here ? 

Mr. Salzer. I turned them over to Mr. Ahern several nights ago 
when he came out and asked for them, through the advice of my at- 
torney, and accountant. 

The Chairman. Let's get the l)ooks and records you turned over 
to Mr. Ahern who is connected with this committee, and see if you can 
identify them ; Mr. Ahern, will you come around. Let's see the books 
and records. 

Mr. Ahern. All the records that are here were brought in by Mr. 
Cahill, Mr. McGuire, and myself, with the exception of the current 
months of January brought in by Mr. Salzer yesterday morning. 

The Chairman. Is there some way we can mark, for identification, 
the records ? Are they in several bundles ? 

Mr. Ahern. They are in several bundles, all marked "Club For- 
rest." 

The Chairman. Mr. Salzer, that's the records you are talking about 
that he has identified? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Can you mark the bundles 1, 2, 3, and 4? 

Mr. Ahern. Yes, we can. 

The Chairman. How many bundles are there for the years 1944 
to 1951, including January 1951? The little record you have in your 
hand, Mr. Salzer, is that the January 1951 record ? 



(ORGANIZED CRIMEl IN' INTERSTATE COMME'RlOEi 301 

Mr. Salzeu (examiiiino- records). They look like it. 

The Chaiumax, Let's open it and see. 

(Records opened by Ahern.) 

There seem to be three books. 

Mr. Salzer. Four books, sir. 

The ChairmajST. Are those the 1951 current records? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And they are the records of Club Forrest that were 
in your possession or control 'i Is that correct ? 

(Pause.) 

Mr. Weinstein. They are Club Forrest records. 

Mr. Salzer. Yes; they are Club Forrest records. May I have a 
word with my counsel, please, sir ? 

The Chairman. All right. 

(Witness and Mr. Weinstein confer.) 

The Chairman. Now, are you the one that can give us information 
from these records, or is there an auditor, Mr. Murphy or someone 
else that Iniows about them ? 

Mr. Salzer. There is an auditor, who is Mr. Murphy. But I make 
most of the entries that are made in them. Not all of them, but most 
of them. 

The Chairman. Will you get the records — if w^e get the records 
and ask you about the entries, can you tell us about them ? 

Mr. Salzer. For the majority of them, I think I could. I will do 
my best. 

The Chairman. That is the line of questioning we are going to 
follow with Mr. Salzer. Go ahead, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Then you are an employee who keeps the books and 
records at the club. Is that correct? 

The Chairman. Anyway, the books and records are in his posses- 
sion, and he can testify about them. 

Mr. Weinstein. Mr. Chairman, if I could see you for one moment 
with your counsel there, I think we could get something decided pretty 
fast here. 

Mr. Rice. It might help. 

The Chairman. Well, let's have another 5-minute recess and we 
will confer with counsel. 

(Short recess.) 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Salzer, we have a lot of books which 
have been filed as an exhibit here, which necessarily is going to take 
a lot of time to dig into and what not, which we want to get back 
to you, from whom we got them, as soon as possible. Now, you look 
at the — I w^ill ask one question, then Mr. Rice may carry on. Will 
you look at the book in your possession and tell us whether the Forrest 
Club is a corporation or whether it is a partnership ? 

Mr. Salzer. Book in my possession? 

The Chairman. Yes; I am asking you that; hand him the book. 
Take it around, Mr. Mills, and stand there with him. 

"^Aliat are these? 

Mr. Weinstein. Those are papers dealing w^ith article of corpora- 
tion and minutes. I think that that was requested also. 

The Chairman. To get at it, the Forrest Club, according to articles 
of corporation, is a corporation. Is that correct? 

Mr. Salzer. As far as I know ; yes, sir. 



302 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Now, look at the book. Do you have the minute 
book? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Which you have brought in ? 

Mr. Salzer. As to this book : I was told it is the minute book. I 
have never looked in it and never read it. It has not been any of 
my affairs to do so. 

The Chairman. What does the book show, as to who are the stock- 
holders? Who are the officers, and directors of Club Forrest? 

Mr. Salzer. I don't know that for sure, but I am sure it is in this 
book. Somebody that might know how to look at this book. 

Mr. Weinstein. Show it to him. 

The Chairman. Well, let's find it in the book. 

Mr. Salzer. If you show me that and that is what it says, why 
that's it. 

The Chairman. Look at the last directors' meeting and see who 
they are. 

Mr. Rice. In the meantime, Mr. Counsel, get your stock book. 

Mr. Salzer. It says here "President, Mr. Frank Mills; vice presi- 
dent, Mr. Arthur Mills; secretary and treasurer, Mr. Alfred B. 
Schorling." 

Mr. Rice. Does it show the directors? Those are the officers as 
of the moment. What is the date of that meeting ? 

Mr. Salzer. February 12. Let me read you this: "First meeting 
of the newly elected board of directors held February 12, 1949, in 
accordance with resolutions passed at the annual meeting of the 
stockholders." Should I continue. That is the caption of the page. 

The Chairman. That is enough. 

Mr. Rice. Now, do we have a stock book? 

Mr. Salzer. You see, sir, you are asking me a lot of questions that 
I really don't know the answers to. 

Mr. Rice. Yes; I understand that you may not know the answers 
to a lot of the questions. We will do the best we can with what we 
have. 

Mr. Salzer. These records were turned over by our auditor and me. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Salzer. I asked him to come up there and tell me what to give 
them. That is what he said to give ; so you are asking me 

Mr. Rice. Yes. We all understand that some of the Mills boys are 
not available who normally would be able to answer these questions. 
Let the record indicate that Ralph Mills is not one of tlie Mills boys 
referred to. 

Mr. Salzer. I want to make this clear. I don't know whether you 
know it or not. I am not a stockholder ; I am an employee of that club. 

Mr. Rice. I understand that. 

Mr. Salzer. No ; I don't know what this is. I do have custody of 
these things. 

Mr. Rice. We have a mutual problem of trying to get at something 
where the people who really should know the answers are not available. 

Mr. Salzer. I think you are right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, now, we will go 

The Chairman. All right. How about getting on. Mr. Ralph 
Mills, you read them off. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 303 

Mr. Mills. This is preferred stock we are referring to first, and here 
are 254 shares for Henry Mills. I think if somebody would add them 
up as we go along it would help : 254 shares for Henry Mills, 127 shares 
for Edwin H. Litolff, 106 shares for Arthur Mills, 127 shares for Law- 
rence J. Luke, 74 shares for Frank Mills, 74 shares for Gonzales 
Azcona, 85 shares for Alfred B. Schorling, 44.83 shares for Henry 
Mills — that is in addition to w^hat he had before; 13.06 shares for 
Frank Mills, 18.68 shares for Arthur Mills, 22.42 shares for Ed Litolff, 
13.07 shares for Gonzales Azcona, 14.94 shares for A. B. Schorling. 

The Chairim AN. Is that what the record shows there, Mr. Mills ? 

Mr. R. Mills. Yes, sir ; that is the total. 

The Chairman. Le^ the witness answer. 

Mr. Salzer. That is w^hat he read off ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Tliat is preferred stock, Mr. Mills? 

JNIr. Mills. That is preferred stock. 

Mr. Weinstein. That is what the document 

I don't know. The document says preferred stock on that certificate 
that he read off. 

The Chairman. That is all right, Mr. Mills. Mr. Rice, you just 
ask him some questions. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now, sir, on the common stock, will you read 
down the distribution of the common stock? Mr. Mills, you can do 
that. 

Mr. WEiNsn:iN. The document shows 

Mr. Mills. This document here shows that it is on common stock, 
No. 1, for 200 shares, Henry Mills; No. 2, for 87.05 shares, Frank 
Mills; No. 3, for 125 shares, for Arthur Mills; No. 4, 150 shares, for 
Edward H. Litolff; No. 5, 150 shares, for Lawrence J. Luke; No. 6, 
for 100 shares, to Vic Gallo ; No. 7, 87.05 shares, to Gonzales Azcona ; 
No. 8, for 100 shares, Alfred B. Schorling; No. 9, 35.28 shares, for 
Henry Mills; No. 10, 15.44, for Frank Mills; No. 11, 22.7, for Arthur 
Mills; No. 12, 26.49, for Edward Litolff; No. 13, 17.64, for Vic Gallo; 
No. 14, 15.44, for Gonzales Azcona; No. 15, 17.64, for A. B. Schorling. 
That is all. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir; do you 

Mr. Weinstein. Of course, would you see whether they reflected a 
transfer in there. There might be. Mr. Murphy would really be in 
position to tell you the exact situation as of this date. 

Mr. Salzer. That is true. 

Mr. Weinstein. Mr. Charles Murphy, the accountant, w^oulcl be able 
to give you exact information on that. 

Mr, Klein. All right, sir. Do you know w^here Mr. Murphy is? 

Mr. Weinstein. I might call for him. 

Mr. Salzer. Mr. Broussard is out in the hall. He might know. 

The Chairman. Let's get Mr. Broussard in, maybe he can help us 
and testify along with this gentleman. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir. Do you assist with the payroll records? 

Mr. Weinstein. Now, at this time, Mr. Rice, we would like — I would 
like to advise the witness to stand upon his constitutional rights of 
the fourth and fifth amendments, and also on the State constitution, 
and refuse to testify, and advise him to so state that he declines to 
testify for the reasons I have just given. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Do we have the payroll records? 



304 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Wait just a minute. I overrule your objection, 
Mr. Weinstein, and order the witness to testify. 

Mr. Weinstein. All rioht, sir. The witness is advised to testify. 
And may I say this, Your Honor, that it is understood when he answers 
this question that he is answering under cojiipulsion of the commit- 
tee's orders? 

The Chairman. It will be understood that this question that he is 
answering by direction of the committee, by the compulsion of the 
chairman's orders, and that if you wish, I will let the record show that 
the same objection is made to every other question that may be asked, 
and that he is also answering under compulsion to every other ques- 
tion. 

Mr. Weinstein. And the objection deals with the violation of any 
Federal laws or any State laws ? 

The Chairman. All of the objections you made in your original 
objection. 

Mr. Weinstein. And everything is compulsory. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Weinstein. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Can you find the payroll records ? 

The Chairman. We were about to get the auditor in here. We 
might be able to save some time. 

Mr. Salzer. I don't have anything to do with the payrolls. 

The Chairman. Do you have anything to do with the social-secu- 
rity records? 

Mr. Salzer. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. Your name is? 

Mr. Broussard. Errol F. Broussard. 

TESTIMONY OF ERROL F. BROUSSARD, NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY ROBERT WEINSTEIN, ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, 
LA. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Broussard. I do. 

Mr. EiCE. All right, sir, do you find on there that George Eeyer 
draws any money, or do you know, or can you find in the records that 
George Reyer draws any money from the Club Forest ? 

Mr. Broussard. I would like to state, before I go into this that we 
do not prepare these returns. They are prepared by someone else. 
We see the total figures, but we have nothing to do with their prep- 
aration. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Could you take a look and see if you find them on 
there, or do you know from what your office does do whether George 
Reyer receives any money from Club Forest ? 

Mr. Broussard. To my knowledge, he doesn't, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Has he ever received any money from Club Forest, to 
your knowledge. 

Mr. Broussard. Not to my knowledge, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Has he ever appeared on the records? 

Mr. Broussard. Not to my knowledge, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Do you know who he is ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 305 

The Chairman. Do you know, Mr. Salzer, whether he is on the 
records ? 

]\Ir. Salzer. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever lieard of him? 

Mr. Weinstein. Do you know him ? 

Mr. Broussakd. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Salzer, does the Club Forest have wire service? 

Mr. Salzer. What do you mean by that question ? 

Mr. Rice. Does it have a ticker there for the wire service? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Can you tell from the records what is paid for the wire 
service ? 

Mr. Salzer. I believe you can. Give me a few minutes, and I might 
be able to look through there and tell. Offhand, I can't say. 

The Chairman. Can you remember the approximate amount and to 
whom it is paid ? 

Mr. Salzer. No, sir ; I can't. That is under a different — there is a 
different head for that. My time is spent there mostly at night. 
However, I am there sometimes in the day, but is for other reasons 
than to participate in anything like that which I might know and be 
able to answer. 

]Mr. Weinstein. Can I ask him this : Do you know that moneys are 
paid for that type of service without knowing the amounts that might 
be paid, exactly ? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes. 

Mr. Weinstein. Do you know that? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes. 

The Chairman. And does the result of races from various parts of 
the United States come in over the wires ? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have a December quarterly payroll there, Mr. 
Broussard ? 

Mr. Broussard. December social-security return, sir, for what year? 

Mr, Rice. Why don't we offer that for the record in toto ? 

Mr. Broussard. You have been having them in your possession as 
far as I know for several days. 

Mr. Rice. Yes ; but they are not in the record. 

The Chairman. Well, they are all in the record. Have you offered 
the entire exhibit ? 

Mr. Broussard. Yes, 

Mr. Rice. Can you help us, Mr. Broussard, on the expense of the 
wire service ? 

Mr. Broussard. No, sir ; offhand I couldn't state the amount, if any, 
witholit having to refer to the record. 

Mr. Rice. Can you refer to the records and find that ? 

Mr. Broussard. I will say from the records the information could 
be obtained. 

Mr. Rice. Will you take a look and see? We are interested in 
getting along and finding out how much is paid for the wire service 
and to whom ? 

The Chairman (examining records.) Well, we have to get along 
someway. Mr. Broussard, can you come over here. Would you know 
the book where the payment for the wire service would be in? 

Mr. Broussard. It would be in the nightbook. 



306 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Salzer. No, it would be in the daybook. 

Mr. Broussard. Give me one of the daybooks. 

Mr. Weinstein. Here is the nightbook. 

Mr. Broussard. I want the daybook. 

The Chairman. I tell you what we will do. We only have about 
six matters we want to find out about in connection with these books. 
So I think we will recess until 8 o'clock, and Mr. Salzer and Mr. 
Broussard, can you stay here with Mr. Martin and Mr. Mills, and 
keep the records all together and see if you can locate the places in 
these books where we can get the answers, so that in about 5 minutes 
when we come back after dinner we can get this information without 
all of the delay that is now necessary. Will that be all right with you, 
Mr. Weinstein? 

Mr. Weinstein. Absolutely. 

The Chairman. We will suspend until 8 o'clock. We stand in 
recess until 8 o'clock. 

NIGHT session 

(Pursuant to the recess taken, the committee reconvened at 8 
p. m., Friday, January 26, 1951.) 

The Chairman. Before we begin the night session I think I should 
say, as I have stated before, that it is our intention to complete the 
session tonight. I don't want to leave here without giving anyone 
whose name has been mentioned an opportunity to be heard. So if 
anyone wliose name lias been mentioned wants an opportunity to be 
heard, if they will let us know about it now, I would appreciate it 
very much so we can arrange our schedule. 

Mr. Cobb. I'd like to be heard, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. You are Mr. Cobb? 

Mr. Cobb. Yes, sir, I have worked with you and the committee 
since last April. I have made trips to Washington, been in com- 
munication with you by long distance, and telegrams and everything 
else. I know more about the gambling situation and will tell more 
truth in a half hour than you'd hear in a half-hundred years. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cobb, we have, of course, appreciated the 
cooperation you have endeavored to give the committee. It is true 
that you have talked with me in Washington, that you came up to 
testify in Washington before the Interstate and Foreign Commerce 
Committee. A good deal of the information you have furnished the 
committee has been used. I have asked the staff to go over with you 
very carefully the information you have and — — 

Mr. Cobb. Senator, I beg to differ with you. 

The Chairman. Well, that is all right, Mr. Cobb. 

Mr. Cobb. You promised me both in writing and personally that 
I'd be allowed to testify and that the investigators would be in touch 
with me here. 

The Chairman. No, Mr. Cobb ; you are wrong about that. I told 
you that when my staff came to 

Mr. Cobb. You haven't kept your word. 

The Chairman. Just a minute, Mr. Cobb, just a minute. I told 
you that when the members of the staff came to New Orleans I'd have 
them get in touch with you and for you to get in touch with them, and 
to give them such information as you wanted ■ 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 307 

Mr. Cobb. They failed to do so. I had to look them up. Don't you 
think tliere was irregularities? 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Cobb, just a minute. They have been in 
touch with you. We have received in writing all of your informa- 
tion. It is necessary that we discriminate; it is necessary that we 
decide what information from witnesses we subpena is pertinent to 
our inquiry. 

Mr. Cobb. There was no evidence that I can use here. 

The Chairman. Just a minute, Mr. Cobb. We have gone through 
all the information you have furnished and the part of the informa- 
tion we have thought pertinent, a great deal of it has been used in our 
inquiry 

^Ir. Cobb. Cobb knows none of it. 

The Chairman. Just a minute 

Mr. Cobb. Practically no 

The Chairman. Mr. Cobb, I will have to ask you to refrain from 
speaking while I am speaking. You have not been accused of any 
matters here. Whatever information you have furnished that con- 
tains leads have been worked over. Of course, by necessity, it is 
necessary that we call on the witnesses that we feel can give us in- 
formation that has relevancy to the matter that we have under inquiry. 
The committee is in a better position to judge about that than yoti 
are. If, during the course of the hearings tonight, we find some 
matters that we think you can throw light on, we will call on you, but 
for the purpose merely of talking about the matters that you have 
information about which w^e have not already brought out in testi- 
mony, the staff advises me that the matters are largely local, and 
so unless you are called on to testify, why 

Mr. Cobb. May I ask one question. Senator? 

The Chairman. All right, sir, you ask one question. 

Mr. Cobb. Just one question : Wh}^ is it that throughout the investi- 
gation that crime, the shake-down rackets, and the blow-ripple situa- 
tion that exists in the city of New Orleans has been completely ignored, 
and the limelight thrown on some outlying parishes which are not 
one-fifth as bad as the parish here? The Governor, for instance, is 
no friend of mine 

The Chairman. Mr. Cobb. 

Mr. Cobb, They have discredited him, but the same situation has 
existed before 

The Chairman. Mr. Cobb, we know a gi-eat deal about you, of 
course, and we have been through your information very fully. The 
committee has, here or anywhere else, tried not to smear anyone or 
protect anyone, but to present the evidence that comes in line with 
our investigation. So that that has been done without regard to others 
in the city of New Orleans or whether it is within some parish outside. 
Of course, you may disagree, but we have studied what you have fur- 
nished very, very carefully. You have furnished some leads for 
which we are thankful to you, but it is up to the committee to decide 
the types of things that it feels comes within the terms of its investi- 
gation. 

Mr. Cobb. One more question, please, and then I will be seated. 
I promise. 
I The Chairman. All right, what is your question? 



308 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Cobb. I have noticed on the stand, I don't approve of all this 
racketeering, that is why I liave been working against it. 

The Chairman. Yon said you wanted to ask a question. Ask your 
question, 

Mr. Cobb. Jimmy Moran, alias James Brocato who identified him- 
self as being in company in a camp hideout with Mayor Morrison, was 
not asked the question asked every other witness, "Do you have a crim- 
inal record?" He was asked how much he weighed and how good a 
prize fighter he was. It looked like the other witnesses were persecuted 
to me, and the mayor is glorified, and the town reeks with pollution, 
corruption, vice, crime, and everything else. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Cobb, it is unfortunate that you are 
not a member of the Senate, so that you 

Mr. Cobb. I hope some day I could be to bring truth and justice to 
the United States. 

The Chairman. All right, now you take your seat, Mr. Cobb. The 
committee has investigated all of the leads you have given us. The 
committee has considered what you have to offer. The committee has 
also considered the sources of your information and what you have 
done in the city of New Orleans. The committee feels that with the 
scope of the investigation it has, that it has given the information you 
have furnished all the importance that it should have, Mr. Cobb. But, 
of course, in any community it is possible, naturally, to run an investi- 
gation for weeks and weeks and weeks and many people would be 
willing to testify. 

Mr. Cobb. Senator, may I ask one more question ? 

The Chairman. No, Mr. Cobb. 

Mr. Cobb. Just one more question. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Cobb. Isn't it a fact that the secretary of the crime commission 
was sent over by the city hall crowd and has been associated with the 
notorious Gasper Gullotta on that phony vice commission in the 
French Quarter? What right did she have on the crime commission 
investigating a thing? I was in that office. I heard her tell a re- 
porter she didn't know who she was working for. 

The Chairman. Of course, Mr. Cobb, if we wanted to go into your 
record we could do you considerable harm, but I have no intention of 
doing that. 

Mr. Cobb. What's that? 

The Chairman. I said if we wanted to go into what you have done, 
and so forth, it might be different, but the thing is 

Mr. Cobb. Just what do you mean ? 

The Chairman. Well, that's all right, Mr. Cobb. You are accus- 
ing this committee, so 

Mr. Cobb. I was here to go on the witness stand, and take all the 
examinations, cross examinations, and everything else. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cobb, we have — we have 

Mr. Cobb. I am the only human being in New Orleans who will do 
it, too. 

The Chairman. We have dozens of people who are willing to go 
on the witness stand, and testify 

Mr. Cobb. I know, some of the perverted minds of the mayor. 

The Chairman. We have many, many people wdio are willing to go 
on the witness stand and testify. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 309 



Mr. Cobb. Sure, biit- 



The Chairman. But somewhere or another, of course, we have got 
to decide who can bring out testimony that is important to us. 

Mr. Cobb. The judge got a record 

The Chairman. The facts you have submitted, or the information 
that 3'ou have submitted that is important to us, we have endeavored to 
bring out, and we have brought out. It is up to the committee to 
decide what we think is of interstate or national importance and not 
for you. So that I can thank you for whatever information you have 
given the committee, but I will have to ask you to take your seat. 

Mr. Cobb. In conclusion, I will tell you I am proud of the best 
record of anybody in politics, in New Orleans. 

The Chairman. All right, Mv. Cobb, we understand that. There 
are some witnesses here whom we are not going to be able to call to- 
night. If any of them are in the audience, I wish they'd be thinking 
about the question whether they want to testify, witnesses we have 
subpenaed. Also, I will ask Mr. Knop, the good marshal who has 
served us so patiently, to check with the witness list the people waiting 
out in the hall to testify, and see if any we may not have called want 
to testify, and so advise the committee. Now, is there anyone whose 
name has been brought out in the hearing who wants to make any 
explanation? [No response.] If not, I have asked Mr. Mills and 
a\Ir. Martin to go over with our present witnesses, Mr. Salzer and Mr. 
Broussard, to see if they can come to some understanding or at least 
a correlation of what is in the records that we have before us relative 
to Club Forest. Have you been able to do that, Mr. Broussard and 
Mr. Salzer? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Broussard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Mills, do you have it? 

Mr. Mills. Yes ; I have it here. 

The Chairman. "Wliat have you done about the records and the 
books ? 

Mr. Mills. These gentlemen here have the records and books for 
the Club Forest down there and they have appropriate places marked 
in the books, and if it is desired to make references to the books them- 
selves after this, that we have agreed by stipulation with their attor- 
ney, Mr. Weinstein, who assisted in getting this together, then we can 
make specific references to the books. 

The Chairman. You speak up so we can all hear what you have 
to say. 

Mr. Mills. As of January 1, 1951, the Club Forest was divided into 
the following divisions : First is the restaurant ; that includes the din- 
ing room, grill, and bar. The second division is the casino, which is 
open to the public and it is divided as follows — it has a night and a 
day operation. Now the day operation includes what they call "the 
big game,-' that is the dice game. There were three tables. It has 
a small dice table, two roulette wheels, two blackjack games, a race 
horse book, and a football pool. Then the night operation has the 
keno game. 

Mr. Salzer. :May I interrupt ? That is not a football pool. That is 
on football wagers. 

The Chairman. Speak up louder, we can't hear you. 

Mr. Salzer. That's on football wagers. 



310 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. All right, mark out "football pool"' and put in 
"football wagers," Mr. Mills. 

Mr. Mills. Right. The night operation includes the keno game, 
six roylette wheels, small dice games, blackjack, four tables; the "big 
game" or dice, five tables and it ranges depending on the amount of 
business from two to five tables in the operation. Now, also included 
in the night report for the casino are the slot machines, and the re- 
ceipts from the slot machines are counted twice a week and included 
in the night receipts. Mr. Salzer has no record here to reflect exactly 
how many slot machines they have. His best recollection is that there 
are approximately 48 slot machines in the Club Forest. These ma- 
chines are 5 cents, 10 cents, 25 cents, 50 cents and $1 machines. Now, 
also included under the casino operation is the race horse machine, 
which is similar to the slot machine and pays off. Is that correct, Mr. 
Salzer ? 

Mr. Salzer. That is right. 

The Chairman. Speak up, Mr. Salzer. 

Mr. Salzer. That is right. 

The Chairman. I mean, all of this he has read you know about? 

Mr. Salzer. That's right. 

Mr. Weinstein. May I just say this, Mr. Chairman, so that the 
record will be clear, since all of this testimony is by way of compul- 
sion, instead of calling it a stipulation, you have asked him the ques- 
tion, he says "That's right." 

The Chairman. That is right. 

Mr. Weinstein. From a reference to the books. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir; they have gone over the books together. 

Mr. Mills, This part Mr. E. F. Broussard assisted in getting to- 
gether. Now, the assets of the Club Forest, the balance sheet at the 
end of the fiscal year, November 30, 1949, which is the latest one, in 
fact, that we could refer to, shows total assets of $718,904.59. That 
included $156,069.55 in cash; $49,247.30 in accounts receivable; 
$6,499.67 in inventory ; $300 

Mr. Broussard. I beg your pardon, sir. Will you call that figure 
of some four hundred twenty- two thousand dollars again, Mr. Mills? 

Mr. Mills. I haven't got that far yet. 

Mr. Broussard. You just called it, Mr. Mills. 

Mr. Mills. No, $6,499.67, inventory $300 ; Mid-Winter Sports As- 
sociation, $422,030.70— what was that? 

Mr. Broussard. That is the book value of the assets, the fixed assets 
of the corporation. 

Mr. Mills. $70,000 for land; $1,907.37, deposits; $150 for common 
stock; $12,700 for Treasury preferred stock. Again that comes to a 
total of $718,904.59 of assets; and the liabilities accounts and loans 
payable $111,795.01; bonds, notes and mortgages payable, where ma- 
turity is over 1 year, $200,812.50. Other liabilities, which Mr. Brous- 
sard says are State and Federal income tax, $84,233.65. Capital stock 
preferred, $84,700; capital stock common, $1,000; undivided profits, 
$236,373.43. The total liabilities and net worth; $718,904.59. 

The Chairman. Is that right, Mr. Broussard, according to 

Mr. Broussard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. It is ? 

Mr. Mills. We have a little more. 

The Chairman. All right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 311 

Mr, Mills. Gross receipts for the restaurant for the fiscal year 
endin<T 11/30/49 was $88,013.47. Now, the restaurant had only oper- 
ated approximately 2 months. 

Mr. Broussard. That is correct. 

Mr. Mills. The operating expenses: Purchases of food, and so 
forth, that is, for the restaurant, $80,575.27. Expenses, $17,020.36, 
making a total of $98,201.63, less the inventory, makes the actual oper- 
ating expenses $91,701.96, and indicates that the restaurant operated 
at a loss of $3,688.49, Now, the gross receipts for the casino and other 
games as of 11/30/49 — that is November 30, 1949, includes all gaming 
devices 

Mr. Broussard. And slots. 

Mr. Mills. $2,008,796. Total operating expenses, $1,799,620.39. 
The net operating profit for the casino and the other gaming devices : 
All games at the club, $209,175.61. The operating expenses include 
the restaurant loss. And Mr. Broussard desired that we indicate that 
Federal taxes of $79,142.32 were due, and have they been paid? 

Mr. Broussard. They have been paid when due, sir. 

Mr. Mills. And State taxes, $5,081.33 ; total taxes, $84,223.65 ; and 
the club operated at a net operating profit for restaurant, casino, and 
everything, $124,951.96 for the fiscal year ending November 30, 1949. 
That is all. 

Mr. Broussard. Correct. 

The Chairman. Is all that correct. The part he has read. 

Mr, Broussard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Rice, 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Broussard, can you locate in the books the expenses 
in connection with the wire service ; Mr. Salzer or Mr. Broussard ? 

Mr, Salzer, Yes ; we found that. It is $378 a week. 

Mr, Rice. $378 a week ? 

Mr, Salzer, Yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Now, from the records there, can you tell to whom the 
payments were made? 

Mr. Salzer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is there any way of ascertaining that from either of you 
witnesses ? 

Mr. Broussard. Not at the present time. I wouldn't know. 

Mr, Rice. Do you have the canceled checks ? Is it paid by check ? 

Mr. Salzer. I don't even know whether it is paid by check, I don't 
think it is. I am pretty sure it is not. 

Mr, Rice, Do you pay it ? 

Mr, Salzer, No, sir. 

Mr. Rice, Do you know anything about that, Mr. Broussard? 

Mr. Broussard, Other than what appears on the records, I don't. 

Mr, Rice, Is there any way of finding that out? Don't you, as a 
matter of fact, know there is only one wire service here ? The Daily 
Sports News ? "^ 

Mr, Salzer. Not I, sir. I am not too familiar with the Daily Sports 
News or wire service, as I do accounting work. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir; and in connection with accounting work, you do 
the work for the Club Forest, do you not? 

Mr. Broussard. From the records. 

Mr. Rice. And do you have occasion to review the records and 
checks ? 



312 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, if he knows let him say, if he doesn't, why 
all right. 

Mr. Broussard. I do not know other than what appears on the 
records. 

Mr. Rice. Can you make an effort to find out from the record you 
have there ? 

Mr. Broussard. It reflects on the page that he has open now. 

Mr. Rice. It doesn't show the payee? Can you tell that from the 
record here ? 

Mr. Broussard. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Can you tell from any of the records that you have, Mr. 
Salzer? 

Mr, Salzer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, from your review of the records, do you find 
any jDayments to one George Reyer ? 

Mr. Broussard. I have never noticed a payment to George Reyer ? 

Mr. Rice. How long have you been associated with the club, or with 
the keeping of the books of the club ? 

Mr. Broussard. I have been associated with the firm with whom I 
work for approximately 5 years, and from time to time, I have had 
occasion to help compile the tax returns. 

The Chairman. Do you find any record, Mr. Salzer, of George 
Reyer? 

Mr. Salzer. No, sir ; I know of none. 

Mr. Rice. Well now is it possible for George Reyer to be receiv- 
ing money from the club without it appearing in the records, Mr. 
Broussard ? 

Mr. Broussard. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You keep the records, do you not? 

Mr. Broussard. I clo not keep the records. 

Mr. Rice. Don't you audit the records ? 

Mr. Broussard. I take my information from the records presented 
to me. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know, Mr. Salzer, the answer to that question? 

Mr. Salzer. AVhat is 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible for Mr. Reyer to be receiving money with- 
out it appearing in the records ? 

Mr. Salzer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. It is not possible? 

Mr. Salzer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. So that anyone receiving money from the club for any 
purpose that it appears somewhere in the record. Is that correct ? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Now, then, can either of you gentlemen 
locate in the books the daily figures from the horse book, or ledger 
page? 

Mr. Salzer. In the daily book here there is a figure carried every 
day as to what the race horse book does insofar as win and lose. I 
don't know if you have looked over these records, but that is the way 
it is carried. It is on every day that they have it. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. What is the heading at the top of that page ? 

Mr. Salzer. Well, the heading is the date, and it is the balance 
brought forward of the day bank roll. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 313 

Mr. Rice. Does it liave the "wins" and "losses" for any particular 
day there that you see? 

Mr. Sailer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. liiCE. What date is that you have there? 

Mr. Salzer. I have January '22d. 

Mr. Rice. Of what year ? 

Mr. Salzer. 1951. 

Mr. Rice. What does that show as to the wins and losses? 

]Mr. Salzer. It shows a winner of $1,58G. 

Mr. Rice. Any losers ? 

Mr. Salzer. Tt doesn't sliow. 

Mr. Rice. That is tlie net for tlie day : net capitulation for the day? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir : do you liave the next day? 

Mr. Salzer. Yes. 

Mr. JRice. What is the net for that day ? 

Mr. Salzer. It shows a loser of $843. 

]\Ir. Rice. All right, sir. Read several more days here. 

Mr. Salzer. That happens to be the last day. I will have to go 
back. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir, cut back then. 

Mr. Salzer. This is the day backward, which would be Saturday, 
January 20. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Salzer. This is a day backward; which would be Saturday, 
Jainiary 20. It shows a loser of $20,663. 

Mr. Rice. How about the day before that ? 

Mr. Salzer. It shows a loser of $10,638. 

Mr. Rice. Any employees dropped from the payroll about that 
time? 

Mr. Salzer. I will do better if jou will let me go one more here. 
Do you want the next one ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Salzer, That shows a winner of $14,654. 

The Chairman. And the day before that? 

Mr. Salzer. It shows a winner of $4,415. 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on. Is that all we want ? Now, 
we have had these gentlemen here, Mr. Salzer and Mr. Broussard, 
not because we particularly wanted to, but because they were the only 
ones we could hnd to prove these books. I believe the record sho\<^s 
that Henry, Arthur, and Frank Mills, Edwin Litolff, Albert Schorling, 
Victor (lallo, Gomez Azenna (Gonzalez Azcona) are olHcers, directors, 
who have some interest in this club. Are any of those gentlemen 
here, or some of those on our witness list? 

(No response.) 

I will ask the staff, during the few remaining days we have in New 
Orleans, to prepare from these records and books any supplemental 
information the committee needs and try to get the books back to you 
by Tuesday, anyway, Mr. Salzer; will that be all right? 

Mr. Salzer. Well, Mr. Ahern told me when I brought these, these 
are present current books which we operate on. We can get along 
without them, but I'd rather take them, if you can 

The Chairman. All right, you can take the four current books back 
with you right now. 



314 ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Salzer. How about this minute book that I have ? May I take 
that? 

Mr. Brotjssard. We would like to look at the minute book. We 
haven't had time to check that. 

Mr. Salzer. I would like to have a receipt for that. 

The Chairman. Yes; we'll give you a receipt. The rest of them 
you can get back on Tuesday. 

Mr. Salzer. The stock book, too ? 

The Chairman. The stock certificates we have no need for. You 
can have that. 

All right, let's get all these books out of here. Thank you Mr. 
Salzer and Mr. Broussard. 

(Witnesses excused.) 

Mr. Richard A. Dowling. Mr. Chairman, we offered a book last 
iiight, the Louisiana Sheriff, in connection with Grosch's testimony. 
I don't think it was filed officially in the record, though, was it? 

Mr. Rice. I don't think so. 

Mr. Dowling. May I file it at this time ? 

The Chairman. Oh, that Sheriff book? I have it in my office. I 
thought he just gave it to me to read. 

Mr. Dowling. I thought we had offered it. We would like to offer 
it, if you don't mind, and put it in the record. 

The Chairman. The book entitled "Louisiana Sheriff" 

Mr. Dowling. Louisiana Sheriff, I believe. I did not look at it, but 
he had it. 

The Chairman. The magazine which Sheriff Grosch gave to the 
chairman last night. I thought he just gave it to me, but I will put it 
in the record. 

Mr. Dowling. I would like to have it put in the record. 

(The book was made a part of the record as Exhibit No. 25 and is 
on file with the committee.) 

TESTIMONY OF SHERIFF C. F. "DUTCH" ROWLEY, ARABI, ST. BER- 
NARD PARISH, LA., ACCOMPANIED BY RICHARD A. DOWLING, 
ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. Now, gentlemen, we have a long time to go. Let's 
get down to the point. 

Mr. Rowley. May I ask, before you start, who I am talking to ? 

The Chairman. I am Senator Kefauver. 

Mr. Rowley. I'm glad to know you. 

The Chairman. I am glad to meet you. Sheriff Rowley. Do you 
solemnly swear the testimony you give this committee will be the truth, 
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Rowley. I do. 

Mr. Dowling. At this time, in order to keep the record straight ■ 

The Chairman. Let the record show that Mr. Dowling is appear- 
ing as attorney. 

Mr. Dowling. In order to keep the record straight on behalf of 
Sheriff Rowley, we would like to object to the jurisdiction of the com- 
mittee for the reason, first, that we make the same point that has been 
made hei'e : There is no quorum ; and we make an additional point that 
the resolution authorizing the subcommittee to meet in New Orleans 
has never been in the record insofar as I know. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 315 

Mr, Klein. It is in the record. 
Mr. DowLiNG. Not in this hearing. 

Mr. Klein. It was offered in the beginning by Senator Kefaiiver. 
Mr. DowLiNG. I would like to have it read if you don't mind. 
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Klein, read "the resolution in tlie 
record again, 

Mr. Dowling. I'd like to have a copy of it afterward. Senator. 

Mr. Klein. You may get it from the record. 

The Chairman. We will give you one, it is very short. 

Mr. Klein. It is dated December 22, 1950. 

Special Committee to Investigate Oeganized Crime in Interstate Commerce 

Resolved, That the obairman of tliis committee be and hereby is authorized at 
his discretion to appoint one or more subcommittees of one or more Senators, 
of whom one member shall be a quorum for the purpose of taking testimony 
and all other committee acts, to hold hearings at such time and places as the 
chairman might designate, in furtherance of the committee's investigations of 
organized crime, in the vicinities of the cities of Tampa, Fla., and New Orleans, 
La. 

EsTES Kefauveb, Chairman. 

HERBHiT R. O' Conor. 

Lester C. Hunt. 

Mr. Dowling. And dated when ? 

Mr. Klein. Dated December 22, 1950. 

The Chairman. All right, let's get to Sheriff Kowley. 

Mr. Dowling. We are going to make the further objection 

The Chairman. Yes, we note the objection. 

Mr. Dowling. AVe are going to object to any questions of a purely 
local nature and that have nothing to do with interstate commerce 
or the use of interstate commerce, and that may be strictly of a local 
nature, and if those questions are answered, we reserve the right after 
that to make any objection in the record wdiich we deem fit. We would 
like to make the further statement that Sheriff Rowley is here not 
voluntarily, but under compulsion of a suppena and that any answer 
that he may make is because of compulsion and duress of this sena- 
torial committee. With all due respect to the committee it is a legal 
proposition. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Dowling; we note your objections. 
,A11 right, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you live? 

Mr. Rowley. I live 548 Friscoville, Arabi, La. St. Bernard Parish, 
town of Arabi. 

Mr. Dowling. A-r-a-b-i. 

Mr. Rice. How long have you been sheriff in St. Bernard? 

Mr. Rowley. I was chief deputy from 1924 until November 13, 1938. 

Mr. Rice. And when did you become sheriff ? 

Mr. Rowley. I became sheriff on November 13, 1938. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you have been sheriff steadily since ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, have you ever heard of the Jungle Club ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir, I heard of it. 

Mr. Rice. What is the Jungle Club ? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't tell you exactly what is the Jungle Club 
because I have never entered the Jungle Club in my life. Under 
oath, I couldn't tell you. 

68958 — 51 — pt. 8 21 



316 ORGANIZED CRIME IN Il^TERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Where is the Jungle CUib ? 

Mr. Rowley. The Jungle Club is on the St. Bernard Highway, what 
you call St. Claude Avenue on down. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, is that your parish ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And is it open to the public ? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't say that. I couldn't say it is open to the 
public or not. 

Mr. Rice. You mean you don't know whether the public can go in 
and out of the Jungle Club or not? 

Mr. Rowley. They may ; I don't know. I didn't stay in there to 
find out if they go in and out. 

Mr. Rice. In other words, you haven't done any snooping, have you? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, there has been some testimony here that the 
Jungle Club is the headquarters for the lottery drawings in this area. 
What do you have to say to that ? 

Mr. RoA\TLEY. It may be. 

Mr. Dowling. We note the same objection : that has nothing to do 
with interstate commerce, being strictly a local question, and unless 
connected with interstate commerce, we move that all of that be even- 
tually stricken from this record. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Dowling. 

MV. Dowling. We'd like to have the same objection made as to all 
local questions, strictly local questions. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Dowling. As this committee has no jurisdiction whatever under 
the resolution and under the law, to go into the local questions of what 
goes on in St. Bernard Parish unless connected in some way with inter- 
state commerce. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir ; wliat do you have to say to the allegations 
that drawings are made for the lotteries ? 

Mr. Dowling. Now wait; I would like to have a ruling on that. 

The Chairman. Well, Mr. Dowling, I overrule your objection, and 
I think we can just stipulate that you make the same objection to any 
questions. 

Mr. Dowling. That will be all right, Senator. I don't want to 
keep objecting. 

The Chairman. Yes? All right. 

Mr. Dowling. What is the question? 

Mr. Rice. The question is. What do you have to say to the allega- 
tion that the Jungle Club is a place where drawings for lotteries are 
held? 

Mr. Rowley. I don't know anything about it because I have never 
seen a drawing in the Jungle Inn. 

Mr. Rice. I see. So that you don't know anything about it. Now, 
sir, do you have slot machines in your parish ? 

Mr. Rowley. Now 

Mr. Dowling. Yes. 

Mr. Rowley. I would say this : that about the slot machines, I may 
see one or two on the highway, and I don't know if they are slots 
or not. They may be mint venders. I never stop there to play 
them : find out what they are doing. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 317 

Mr. KicE. Would it be possible in addition to mints, tliey miglit be 
vending 

The Chairman. Do they have Life Savers like this [exhibiting 
package of Life Savers] ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir; I have a sample of them right here [exhibit- 
ing similar package]. 

The Chairman. I thought you never stopped to play them? How 
did you get that ? 

Mr, Rowley. I didn't stop to play it. I got this at the drug store 
to save time. 

Mr. Rice. Have you got any samples of these, Sheriff, that came out 
[exhibiting several nickels]. 

Mr. Rowley. The ones with the hole in it ? 

Mr, Rice, No, the solid type. 

Mr. Rowley. The nickels ? 

Mr, Rice, Yes. 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir ; I didn't lose any — we don't have any. 

Mr. Rice. You don't have any machines like that up there? 

Mr. Rowley. I don't know, now; I'm not telling you that they 
haven't got them. 

Mr. Rice. You don't snoop, do you? 

Mr. Rowley. No, no, I don't snoop. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. How about dice games ? Any dice games 
in your parish ? 

Mr. Rowley. In answering that question, ah 

The Chairman. Well, Sheriff, is the thing pretty wide open down 
there? 

Mr. Rowley. In answering that question could I make a state- 
ment ? 

The Chairman. Yes, we will let you make any statement you want. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, go right ahead. 

Mr. Rowley. They had gambling way back in 1875 in St. Bernard. 
The police jury passed an ordinance one time to pay the constable 
and the justice of the peace out of the funds of the gambling. By this 
time now, I guess gambling ought to be legal in that territory. At that 
time they passed an ordinance. 

The Chairman. You have just about made it legal down there, 
haven't you, Sheriff? 

Mr. Rowley. Not me. I didn't make it legal. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, you say they used to pay who ? 

The Chairman. The justices of the peace and the deputy sheriffs. 

Mr. DowLiNG. No, sir. 

Mr. Rowley. The constables, and way back there 

Mr. Rice. Were those officers superseded by the office of sheriff? 

Mr. Rowley. No, no. A constable is not superseded by the sheriff. 

Mr. Rice. Is the constable still active there ? 

Mr. Rowley. What's that? 

Mr. Rice. Is the constable still active there ? 

Mr. Rowley. Oh, yes ; the constable is still active, now. 

Mr. Rice. Who pays the salary, now? 

Mr. Rowley. The parish pays the salary. 

Mr. Rice. The gamblers no longer pay the salaries? Is that right? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 



318 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EiCE, Now, sir ; since those times about wliich you speak, have 
there been any changes in the laws of Louisiana ? 

Mr. KowLEY. I am not familiar with some laws in the State of 
Louisiana. 

Mr. Rice. Oh, I see. 

Mr. Rowley. But we have a law on the statute books prohibiting 
gambling. 

Mr. Rice. Are you familiar with the gambling laws in particular? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes ; I am familiar with that. 

Mr. Rice. Now, do you have a law that says something like this 
(reading from art. 90) : 

Gambling is the intentional conducting or directly assisting in tlie conducting 
as a business of any game, contest lottery or contrivance whereby a person risks 
the loss of anything of value in order to realize a profit, and whoever commits 
the crime of gambling shall be fined not more than $500 or imprisoned for not 
more than 1 year, or both. 

Mr. Rowley. Yes; that's in the banking game statute. 

]VIr. Rice. Oh ; that is a banking game. 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir: Whoever banks a game; it's the banking 
game statute. 

Mr. Rice. Does that apply to slot machines ? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. It doesn't apply to slot machines ? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir; that is not a banking game. 

INIr. Rice. Woukl that apply to a slot machine that paid off in cash ? 

Mr. Rowley. It wouldn't apply to that, either. 

Mr. Rice. So the slot machine that pays off in cash, according to 
your interpretation, is a legal device? 

Mr. Rowley. It's not a legal device; it is what would you say, as 
going on the line of being legal pretty soon because Uncle Sam charges 
you $150 on one of them and the State charges you a hundred dollars 
on the other, so I would ask — are you the attorney, Mr. Rice? — that 
a man that pays taxes on a slot machine, that he is at jeopardy 
because he pays Uncle Sam $150 and he pays the State of Louisiana 
$100. Then, say if he pays it like today, he can be raided the same 
hour and he loses $250 and he can be charged in the local courts. So 
the only thing that — they charge you with slot machines is $25 or 
30 days, I understand. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir 

Mr. DowLiNG. I might interpose an observation here, Mr. Rice. 
On your reading of that statute. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. DowLiNG. If you will note, and I have the case: the case is 
reported in the Louisiana reports. It is the case of State of Louisiana 
V. Lawrence Bieiivenu. It went up from the courts of St. Bernard 
Parish to the Supreme Court of Louisiana. The courts very strictly 
interpreted that particular part of the statute which you just read, 
where it says "gambling as a business." In other words, a man can 
gamble not as a business and under that statute it is not gambling, 
and the Supreme Court of the State of Louisiana in the case that I 
had reversed a conviction because of that. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Dowling, I'd like to observe that the United States 
imposes a tax on the sale of opium. Does the sheriff hold that the 
general sale of opium is legal, too ? 



ORGANIZED CRIIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 319 

Mr. DowLiNG. I don't know what he holds, as far as that is con- 
cerned, I am not — I wasn't talking about the sale of opium; I w^as 
talking about a parti<'ular Louisiana statute. 

The Chairmax. Well that is — the only way we have of 

]Mr. DowLiNG. Clarify in the committee's mind that statute. The 
gravamen of that statute is that it nuist be as a business. You and 
I can go out and shoot dice and under that statute, they can't convict 
us of it unless we make it our business. 

The Chairmax. Well, we haven't. 

Mr. DowLiNG. That has been decided by the Supreme Court of 
Louisiana. 

The Chairman. Mr. Dowling, we haven't time to discuss the law. 

Mr. DowLiXG. I am sorry. Senator, but I just wanted to straighten — 
I am not going to interject myself, except where something seems to 
be muddy. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the Riverview Club, Sheriff 
Rowlev ? 

Mr. "Rowley. What's that? 

Mr. Rice. The Riverview Club. 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What business is it in? Is that in St. Bernard Parish? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Where about is that located? 

Mr. Rowley. That's located on Friscoville and North Peters. 

Mr. Rice. Who runs that club ? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't say right offhand ; it changes hands so 
often. I couldn't tell you who runs that club. 

Mr. Rice. What goes on in that club ? 

Mv. Rowley. I couldn't say. I never have been in the club. 

Mr. Rice. Never been in there ? Did anyone ever tell you ? 

Mr. RoAVLEY. Well now, that would be hearsay. I couldn't tell you 
if they said they were gambling or not because that would be hearsay. 

Mr. Rice. We will accept the hearsay. What have you heard about 
the club? 

Mr. Roavley. I heard lots of things that are not true. I hear a lot 
of things the newspapers publish that are not true. 

Mr. Rice. Did you hear there was gambling going on in there? 

Mr. Rowley. Oh, yes ; I heard that, too. 

]\rr. Rice. Did you make any effort to check up on it ? 

Mr. Rowley. What's that? 

Mr. Rice. Did you make any effort to check up on it when you 
heard that? 

Mr. Rowley. The reason why — no, sir ; I didn't. I admit I didn't 
check up on the gambling because of the simple reason that wliere 
I live we never had one complaint about gambling. 

Mr. Rice. Uh huh. 

Mr. Rowley. No ; I'll tell you this : If 10 or 15 peo]^le would come 
to me and make a complaint about gambling, I would look into it and 
close it, but I wouldn't close it for one disgruntle, you understand; 
and I never even had one of them. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever closed a gambling place at all on any 
complaint ? 



320 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir ; we have closed gambling houses down there. 

Mr. Rice. You make some arrests ; do you ? 

Mr. Rowley. What's that? 

Mr. Rice. You make some arrests for gambling? 

Mr. Rowley. Well, not lately, I couldn't say offhand without the 
records. I have no records here of that. 

Mr. Rice. When was the last arrest you made for gambling? 

Mr. Rowley. Last time we had a trial was back in — around '40, I 
think. 

Mr. Rice. What caused you to decide to arrest in that case? 

Mr. Rowley. This is the case Mr. Dowling explained to you ; Mr. 
Larry Bienvenu. 

Mr. Rice. And you haven't had a case since 194:0 ? 

Mr. Dowling. I think you are wrong about that year. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you have a deputy by the name of Cravata? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir; I have no deputy sheriff by the name of 
Cravata. He's not a deputy sheriff. 

Mr. Rice. Who is your chief deputy ? 

Mr. Rowley. I have no chief deputy. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Mr. Cravata? 

Mr. Rowley. Have I got to explain to you who is Mr. Cravata ? 

The Chairman. Well, if you can do it briefly, who is Mr. Cravata ? 

Mr. Dowling. If you have to explain, you can't just ignore it. 

The Chairman. Well, tell who he is. 

Mr. Rowley. Mr. Cravata is a resident, taxpayer, and property 
owner in Arabi. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any business transactions with him ? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is he a gambler? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't say if he is a gambler or not. 

Mr. Rice. What business is he in ? 

Mr. Rowley. That is none of my business. 

Mr. Rice. Isn't he related to you? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What relation? 

Mr. Rowley. He is a nephew of mine. 

Mr. Rice. He is a nephew ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know what business he is in? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How old a man is he ? 

Mr. Rowley. Oh, I guess he is forty-some-odd years old. I couldn't 
tell you. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever known him to be in business? 

Mr. Rowley. Oh, yes, sir ; I have know him to be in business. 

Mr. Rice. In the last 5 years ? 

Mr. Rowley. I know he worked in the shipyard and stuff like that. 

Mr. Rice. Has he worked in the shipyard in the last 5 years? 

Mr. Rowley. Oh, I couldn't — no ; the shipyard has been closed. I 
couldn't tell you if he worked or not in the shipyards. 

Mr. Rice. What has he done in the last 5 years ? 

Mr. Rowley. Well, now that would be a question to ask Mr. Cravata. 

Mr. Rice. You'd rather not answer ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 321 

Mr. Rowley. I'd rather not ans^Yer. It would be a question to ask 
him. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, how many lottery companies operate in your 
parish ? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't tell you because I haven't seen any. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any handbooks in your parish ? 

Mr. Rowley. Under the same ruling, I say that I never seen any. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know of any ? 

Mr, Rowley. I know they are around there, but I don't see them. 

Mr. Rice. You know they are around there, but you don't see them? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir ; I don't see them. 

Mr. Rice. You don't go looking for them, do you ? 

Mr. Rowley. No ; I don't look for them. I don't look for them at 
all. I got no complaints against them. You see, if there was any 
complaints 

The Chairman. Well, while we are on the matter of handbooks and 
these clubs, these clubs mostly have wire service and horse racing? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir ; you can find out who owns them and every- 
thing else by your wire service. 

The Chairman. I mean they all have wire service in them so you 
can bet on horse races ? 

Mr. Rowley, Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Let the records show that the hearings on S. 3358, 
Senate hearings, on page 857, show that there are Western Union drops 
for Continental Press Service, I mean from the Daily Sports News, 
at, that is the Fogarty Service at 118 Friscoville Avenue, Arabi, La.; 
Arabi Club, Arabi, La. ; Jungle Inn, 7310 St. Claude Avenue, Arabi, 
La. ; D Club, 6749 North Peters Street, Arabi ; Joe's Club— is parish 
on your — no. Riverview Club, 116 Friscoville Avenue, Arabi, La, ; 
Crescent City Club, 6779 North Peters Street, Arabi, La.; North 
Buissin, 1604 Angela Street, Arabi, La. Are you familiar with these 
places ? 

Mr, Rowley. No ; what is the last one you called ? 

The Chairman. Well, here is North Buissin, 1604 Angela Street, 
Arabi, La. 

Mr. Rowley. What? 24 Angela? 

The Chairman. 1604 Angela. 

Mr. Rowley. Wliat'sthat? The poolroom? 

The Chairman, I don't know. I am just 

Mr. Rowley. I don't either. 

The Chairman. I am just reading the places where 

Mr. Rowley. Where the drops are ; the telephones ? 

The Chairman. Where the drops are; that's right. Anyway, the 
Arabi Club and the 118 Club, and the what was that club you asked 
about? The Crescent City Club, Duffy's Tavern, and the River- 
view Club : You know where they are ? 

Mr. Rowley. Duffy's Tavern ; you've got me there. I don't know 
where old Duffy's at right now. 

The Chairman. Let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any business besides that of sheriff ? 

Mr. Rowley. What's that? 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any business interests besides that of sheriff ? 

Mr. Rowley. 'No, no. The only business I had was in a tract of 
land we bought some time ago. 



322 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. EicE. Who is "we"? 

Mr. Rowley. jMr. Livaudais and a few others; five of us boiiglit a 
tract of land, call it the Trinaback. 

Mr. Rice. Tract of land? 

Mr. Rowley. Tract of land. 

Mr. Rice. What goes on there ? 

Mr. Row^LEY. Nothing but land. 

Mr. Rice. Nothing but land ? 

]\Ir. Rowley. That's all. 

JVIr. Rice. Who are the other five ? 

Mr. Rowley. There is Messrs. Plauche, Hodges, Lagachesra, 
myself, and Livaudais — five of us. 

Mr. Rice. From whom did you buy that ? 

Mr. Rowley. I bought this from some widow, I've forgot her name 
riglit now. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. What goes on that land? 

Mr. Rowley. Nothing. Nothing goes on there but grass right 
now. 

]Mr. Rice. Any cattle grazing on there ? 

Mr, Rowley. They had a fellow had a pasture on there one time, 
but now the gas company bought a portion of that land. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. You have sold tliat property; haven't 
you? 

Mr, Rowley. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. You don't have that any more ? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

INIr. Rice. Do you have any other business ? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice, All right, sir, I note from certain records that you sub- 
mitted in response to the subpena that you have 

Mr, DowLiNG. Well, now we are going to object- 



Mr, Rice, That you have miscellaneous income of $7,000 and $8,000, 
and $6,000 within the past 3 years in addition to your income as 
sheriff. What is the source of that miscellaneous income ? 

Mr. DowLiNG. We are going to object to any statement about any 
income-tax return, and state that it is not admissible and can't be 
gone into in tliis hearing. 

Mr. Rice. No one said anything about an income-tax return. 
Counsel. 

Mr. DowLiNG. You are using an income-tax return in framing your 
question. 

Mr. Rice. Is that so? 

Mr. Doweling. Yes; that's what you stated: You got your infor- 
mation from income-tax returns 

Mr. Rice. No ; I didn't. I said from a record. 

Mr. DoAVLiNG. Well what record did you get it from? The only 
record that 

Mr. DowLiNG, Anyway, the sheriff ought to be willing to tell what 
he got his income from, 

Mr, DowLiNG. Well, I advise him not to answer the question. 

Mr, Rowley, I refuse to answer that question, 

Mr, Rice. I ask the question of the witness. 

Mr. Rowley. I refuse to answer the question. 

Mr. Rice, On what jrround ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 323 

]\rr. DowLiXG. Read your statement. 

Mr. Rice. Let the record show the sheritf is removing a paper from 
his pocket. 

Mr. DowLiNG. That is correct. I have given liim advice on what 
his rights are and I stand on that advice. There is nothing wrong 
witli that. 

Mr. Rice. Let the record show that the sherijff is reading from a 
paper. 

Mr. RowLET. Yes; I am reading from a paper from my counsel. 
Let the record show tliat. 

Mr. Rice. Did your counsel prepare the paper, Mr. Sheriff? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir, Mr. Dowling 

Mr. Dowling. I prepared it. 

Mr. Rowley (reading) : 

On the advice of my counsel, I desire — I decline to answer this — decline to 
answer this question on the constitutional ground, under the fifth amendment 
of the United States, interpreted by the Supreme Court in the case Ball v. The 
United States. Act, Seventy-first 

The Chairman. You don't mean "Ball," you mean "B-a-u-g-h" 
don't you ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes — 

of 223 to answer the said question might incrimin — might tend to incriminate me 
and make me liable to criminal prosecution and furnish a link of chains of 
evidence in criminal prosecution against me. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir; are you under indictment- 



The Chairman. Now, Sheriff, do you want to say that, Sheriff, you 
are afraid some answer you might give us about some income you got 
might incriminate you ? Is that what you want to tell this committee ? 

Mr. Doweling. Stand on that. 

Mr. Ro^vLEY. I stand on my hight on answering that question. 

The Chairman. Well, I was just asking you. You took an oath to 
enforce the law. 

Mr. Rowley. Well, I am trying to get along with you, trying to 
answer every question you ask me. Senator. 

The Chairman. Well, we are trying to get along with you, but — 
we don't want to get in any trouble with you, but I just wonder what 
you think about though, as Sheriff, being afraid some answer about 
his income is going to incriminate him. 

Mr. Dowling. Try and answer it. 

Mr. Rowley. I am not answering it. 

The Chairman. What do you think about that? 

Mr. Rowley. I am not tliinking now. I am just not answering. 

The Chairman. Well, think about it a little bit. Think about it. 
After all, you are the chief law-enforcement officer of your county, 
and if you are afraid to talk about your income 

Mr. Rowley. We have a law-abiding parish, too. 

The Chairman. Yes; but I mean, you w\ant to keep the people 
respecting you down there. 

Mr. Row^ley. That's right. 

The Chairman. What do you think about a sheriff being afraid to 
tell where he got some income from ? 

Mr. Dowling. Don't say. 

Mr. Rowley. Well, I still refuse to answer the question. 



324 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Well, I will have to direct you to answer, Sheriff. 
Mr. Rowley. I still refuse to answer the question. 
Mr. Rice. What type of automobile do you have, Sheriff ? 
Mr. Rowley. What's that? 

Mr. Rice. What type of automobile do you have? 
Mr. Rowley. I have a Ford and Cadillac. 
Mr. Rice. What year is the Cadillac? 
Mr. Rowley. 1949 Cadillac. 

Mr. Rice. I see. From whom did you purchase the Cadillac? 
Mr. Rowley. Crescent Auto Co. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. Now, did you pay for. the Cadillac yourself? 
Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Rice. Is it paid for? 
Mr. Rowley. Oh, yes ; it's paid for. 
Mr. Rice. Did you pay in cash? 
Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Rice. How much did it cost you ? 
Mr. Rowley. $3,700. 

Mr. Rice. From whom did you buy the Ford ? 
Mr. Rowley. I bought the Ford from the Bohn Motor Car Co. 
Mr, Rice. And what year is the Ford ? 
Mr. Rowley. Ford is a 1949 trade-in Ford on my old Ford. 
Mr. Rice. How much did that cost you over your trade-in? 
Mr.. Rowley. $470. 

Mr. Rice. All right. Do you know A. J. Cigali ? 
Mr. Rowley. Oh, yes, sir ; I know A. J. Cigali. 
Mr. Rice. Did he ever give you a Cadillac ? 
Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 
Mr. Rice. Did he ever give you anything? 
Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 
Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that? 
Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 
Mr. Rice. You are not sure ? 
Mr. Rowley. No, I am not sure. 
Mr. Rice. Well, think about it. 
Mr. Rowley. Cigali has never given me anything. 
Mr. Rice. Never given you anything? 
Mr. Rowley. No. 

Mr. Rice. Anybody ever give you an automobile ? 
Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, when you paid for this Cadillac, did you pay 
by check? 

Mr. Rowley, I paid it by cash. 

Mr. Rice. You paid by cash ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. And did you withdraw the cash from a bank acocunt ? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wliere did you withdraw the cash from ? 

Mr. Rowley. Took it out of my safe. 

Mr. Rice. Took it out of your safe ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, where is your safe ? 

Mr. Rowley. My safe is in my room. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 325 

Mr. Rice. In your room. What room? 

Mr. Rowley. In the room where I sleep. 

Mr. Rice. In your house ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. At the time j^ou drew the cash from the safe, how much 
other cash was in there ? 

Mr. Rowley. Oh, approximately — I don't know; maybe ten or 
fifteen thousand ; something like that. 

Mr. Rice. Ten or fifteen thousand cash ? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't tell you — -might be eight, might be four, 
might be three — something I couldn't tell you exactly. 

Mr. Rice. Is the safe still there ? 

Mr. Rowley, Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How much cash is there now ? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't tell you exactly. I haven't opened it up 
yet for a long time. 

Mr. Rice. About how much ? 

Mr. Rowley. I don't know. I couldn't say exactly how much Tve 
got in it. 

Mr. Rice. What is the closest you can come ? 

Mr. Dowling. Don't guess. If you don't know, you don't know. 

Mr. Rowley. I just don't know how much I've got in it. 

Mr. Rice. When you looked last, how much was there, Sheriff? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't say exactly how much I've got in there. 
I must have, maybe fifteen or twenty thousand in there. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Maybe fifteen or twenty thousand ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Could it be more ? 

Mr. Rowley. No ; it couldn't be any more than that. 

Mr. Rice. It couldn't be any more ? 

Mr, Rowley. No. 

Mr. Rice. It couldn't be any more than $20,000? 

Mr. Rowley. About that. 

Mr. Rice. When was the last time you looked ? 

Mr. Rowley. Now, I couldn't tell you. 

Mr. Rice. Was it a month ago ? 

Mr. Rowley. I couldn't tell you even exactly when I looked in it 
or not. 

Mr. Rice. What is the least that could be there ? 

Mr. Rowley. I am telling vou I have given you as close as I can-^ 

Mr. Rice. What is the least that could be there. We've got $20,000 
at the. most ; what is the least that could be there ? 

Mr. Rowley. I said from $15,000 to $20,000 might be in the safe. 

Mr. Rice. Could be as little as $15,000 ? 

Mr. Ro\\a,EY. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. But then, you can't come any closer than $5,000? 

Mr. Rowley. What's that? 

Mr. Dowling. You are only guessing. 

Mr, Rice, Suppose you had a burglar there, you wouldn't know how 
much you lost. Would you ? 

Mr. Rowley. Well, I wouldn't know how much I lost, but there is 
no chance of a burglar doing any business there. May I ask you one 
question, Mr. Rice ? I don't want to be antagonistic to you 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 



326 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rowley. And I would ask you this question. As you are 
going on the line with these questions, you have television with every- 
thing open and spreading this projDaganda all over the United States, 
just inviting burglars to tell you where you can^et knocked off at. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. There are quite a few oiirglars, all right, 
around here. I'll have to say that. Have you any banks in your 
parish ? 

Mr. RowLET. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Why don't you use a bank vault? 

Mr. Rowley. I haven't got a bank vault. I've got money in the 
bank, though. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Don't you trust banks ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Why don't you keep the money at home in a bank? 

Mr. Rowley. Now, that's a broad question. You ask me what I 
do — what I've got to do with my money. You see, that's not got 
nothing to do — — 

Mr. Rice. Well, how about — let's have a reason. 

The Chairman. Albright. 

Mr. Rowley. I want to answer everything you want, but when 
jou're going to tell me what I've got to do with my money, you know. 
It is a different thing. 

Mr. Rice. No one is suggesting what to do with your money. I 
asked you why ? 

Mr. Rowley. I don't want any suggestions, you see, about my 
money. 

The Chairman. Well, Sheriff Rowley, the question is why do you 
keep your money in a box instead of in the bank ? 

Mr. Rowley. That's a matter that — mine's an open book ; I brought 
my books to you, didn't I ? You see what they had in it, eh ? 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. You didn't have anything about that, Sheriff. 

Mr, Rowley. No; but you read the book over thoroughly? You 
know I have been in office 30 years ? 

The Chairman. All right, let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. What banks do you have accounts in. Sheriff ? 

Mr. Rowley. I have an account in the Third District Bank. 

Mr. Rice. Third District Bank. 

Mr. Rowley. Yes ; checking account. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat balance do you keep there ? 

Mr. Rowley. Oh, from — around a thousand dollars, eight hundred, 
six hundred. Sometimes I am a little overdrawn. 

Mr. Rice. Any other bank accounts ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What other bank accounts? 

Mr. Rowley. I have bank account in the Bank of St. Bernard. 

Mr. Rice. How much is in that account ? 

Mr. Rowley. In that account is $10,000 in that account. 

Mr. Rice. Is that in your name ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is that a savings or checking account ? 

Mr. Rowley. Savings account. 

Mr. Rice. Savings draws interest ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes ; 1 percent. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 327 

Mr. EicE, Now, do you have anv other accounts ? 

Mr. Rowley. That/s alL 

Mr. EiCE. Have auy accounts in any other banks outside the State? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir ; no, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Accounts in any other names ? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do vou have any safe-deposit boxes ? 

Mr. Rowley. "No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Other than the one in your liouse ? 

Mr. Rowley. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any stocks and bonds ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. "Wliat are the vahies of stocks and bonds ? 

Mr. Rowley. I have $500 worth of stock. That's all I have to my 
name. 

Mr. Rice. A^^iat company is that in ? 

Mr. Rowley. What's that ? 

Mr. Rice. IVliat company is that in ? 

Mr. Rowley. What's that ? 

Mr. Rice. AAliat company is that in ? 

Mr. Rowley. That's in the Bank of St. Bernard. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have any war bonds ? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What amount of war bonds do you have ? 

Mr. Rowley. $1,100. 

Mr. Rice. $1,100^ 

Mr. Rowley. That's right. 

The Chairman. Sheritt, I am going to ask you again : We have your 
books here ? 

Mr. Rowxey. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And all you list here is your salary, about $335.41 
a month? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And there is some $100 in addition to that? 

Mr. Rowley. What's that ? 

Mr. Rice. There seems to be $100 in addition to that. 

Mr. Row^LEY. Yes, sir. That is expense. That is a check drawn 
on expense. That is $335 a month, and $100 expenses. 

The Chairman. No, Mr. Rice's question was, in addition to these 
$335 a month and $100 expenses in your book, what other incolne 
do you draw, do you get ? 

Mr. Rowley. I don't have no other income. 

The Chairman. Is that all the income you have ? 

Mr. Rowley. That is all the business I have. 

The Chairman. That is all the business, all the income? 

Mr. Rowley. That is all the business. 

The Chairman. 1949, this $335 and $100. 

Mr. Rowley. Did you check the book good to see how much it is? 

The Chairman. It seems to amount to about $5,000 — $5,200 a year. 
Is that it? 

Mr. Rowley. Yes. 

The Chairman. All the income you got? 

Mr. Rowleys That is all. 

The Chairman. All right. 



328 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Anything else ? All right, Sheriff ; that is all. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. All right, call Mr. W. M. Ellis. 

TESTIMONY OF W. M. ELLIS, NEW ORLEANS (METAIRIE), LA. 

The Chairman. You are Mr. W. Ellis? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Ellis. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you live ? 

Mr. Ellis. 105 Metarie Heights, Jefferson Parish. 

The Chairman. 105 Metarie ? What do you do ? 

Mr. Ellis. I am a retired railroad man. 

The Chairman. Mr. Ellis, the only one question I wanted to ask 
you is that on some occasion have you been in Beverly Club out in 
Jefferson Parish ? 

Mr. Ellis. I was in Beverly Club in June 1947 ; May or June. 

The Chairman. And have you been there since then? 

Mr. Ellis. Then I was in there again in June 1949. 

The Chairman. Did you find in there a casino room where they 
had gambling? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. They had crap tables. 

The Chairman. What sort of room is it ? 

Mr. Ellis. What kind of a room ? 

The Chairman. Yes ; I mean how large a room ? 

Mr. Ellis. Oh, it is quite a size ; probably a hundred feet long. 

The Chairman. As big as this hearing room ? 

Mr. Ellis (looking around). Well, I should say almost. 

The Chairman. Almost as big as this hearing room. 

Mr. Ellis. Yes. 

The Chairman. Wliat did you see in that room ? 

Mr. Ellis. I saw crap tables. 

The Chairman. Wliatelse? 

Mr. Ellis. Blackjack, card games, any amount of slot machines. 

The Chairman. All right. Did you see roulette ? 

Mr. Ellis. Well, they had the roulette wheels there but they weren't 
in operation. We were in there early in the evening, and they hadn't — 
the business hadn't got good yet. In fact, it was a dull hour. 

The Chairman. In 1949 when you were there, did you see Mr. 
Xastel? 

Mr. Ellis. Well, no, sir ; I didn't. 

The Chairman. Did you see him there at any time ? 

Mr. Ellis. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wlien you were there in 1949 were the gambling places 
in operation ? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you saw them with your own eyes ? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

Mr, Rice, Were there many people in the gambling room ? 

Mr. Ellis. Well, not at that hour. It was early in the evening and 
there wasn't so many, but there were quite a few participating in all 
the gambling games. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COAIMERCE 329 

The Chairman. That's all. 

Mr. Ellis. And the "nioger in the avoocI pile" was, Senator, that 
there were 11 of iis. One of the men was flushed. He says, "I'm going 
to set them up to you boys." There were 10 Baptists and myself ; I am 
a Methodist. We sat down and ordered a Coca-Cola, and the bill was 
$6.60 for 11 cokes. 

The Chairman. Did you say you were going to set them up ? 

Mr. Ellis. No ; one of the gentlemen — other gentleman. 

The Chairman. You mean one of the Baptists ? 

Mr. Ellis. One of the Baptists ; yes. 

The Chairman. Who was that JBaptist out there with you ? 

Mr. Ellis. There were several of them; Mr. Tanner was one of 
them. 

The Chairman. Was he the one that set you all up ? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where does he live, out in your section ? 

Mr. Ellis. He lives out there in Metairie ; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You all just went in and watched the games, tliez:^ 
bought some Coca-Colas ? 

Mr. Ellis. That's right. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mr. Ellis. You understand what we were in there for. 

The Chairman. Yes, I do. Have you joined with this effort in this 
petition to try to get the places closed ? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is your name on the petition ? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And other people's names are on the petition? 

Mr. Ellis. We had 20 names on the petition. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Ellis. They said it required 20 citizens and property holders. 

The Chairman. You weren't there to do any harm ; you were there 
to be able to qualify ? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, that's right ; when the case came up in district court 
to testify that there was gambling in the establishment. 

The Chairman. Because you felt like it was a bad influence out in 
the parish? 

Mr. Ellis. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right. Well, we understand your motive in 
being there. We just wanted to hear what you saw when you were 
in there. 

That is all. 

Mr. Rice. May I ask one question before you leave, Mr. Ellis ? Did 
you see dice being thrown ? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you see money? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you see money changing hands ? 

Mr. Ellis. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Whose hand was it changing to ? 

Mr. Ellis. Well, the man running the game ; when they rolled the 
dice he'd pay off the people that was betting on them and the one who 
was shooting. 



330 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. The shooters were customers, and the other men ^Yere 
house men^ Is that rights 
Mr. Ellis. That's right. 
Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Thank you. sir. 

The Chairman. All right. That's all. Thank you, Mr. Ellis. 
(Witness excused.) 
The Chairman. Call Mr. J. C. Arthur. 

TESTIMONY OF J. C. ARTHUR, METAIRIE, LA. 

The Chairman. Mr. Arthur, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ^ 

Mr. Arthur. I do. 

The Chairman. Mr. Arthur, were you in the Beverly Club some- 
time recently, within the last 3 or 4 years ? 

Mr. Arthur. I was in there in June of "1:7 and along about April 
of '49. 

The Chairman. Were you there at the same time Mr. Ellis was? 

Mr. Arthur. No, sir ; I was with another group. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you live? 

Mr. Arthur. I live in Metairie, 425 Atherton Drive. 

Mr. Rice. Did you see Mr. Kastel there ? 

Mr. Arthur. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And did you go into the gaming room ? 

Mr. Arthur. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. AVliat did you see? 

Mr. Arthur. Well, I saw slot machines, and I saw card games, 
which I took to be blackjack. I saw dice games and a roulette table^ 

Mr. Rice. Did you see money changing hands ? 

Mr. Arthur. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wide-open gaming? 

Mr. Arthur. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you one of the petitioners on this petition? 

Mr. Arthur. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You feel it is a bad influence and you wanted to be able 
to testify in the case? 

Mr. Arthur. That's right. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN F. BOSCH, SR., NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOM- 
PANIED BY EDWARD J. BOYLE, ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

Mr. Rice. Will you state your name for the record? 

Mr. Bosch. Jolin F. Bosch, Sr. 

The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give this 
committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Mr. Bosch. I do. 

IVIr. Rice. ^Vliere do you live, Mr. Bosch ? 

INIr. Bosch. Twenty-one Hawk Street. 

Mr. Rice. Twenty-one what street? 

Mr. BoscH. Hawk Street. 

Mr. Rice. What business are you in, Mr. Bosch ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 331 

Mr. Bosch. Amusement business. 

Mr. Rice. Anuie^enient business. What is the name of your busi- 
ness ? 

Mr. Bosch. Avalone Amusement Co. 

Mr. Rice. Avalone Amusement Co. What does that company have 
to do with? 

Mr. Bosch. We operate. 

]\Ir. Rice. Operate what ? 

Mr. Bosch. We operate automatic phonographs. 

]Mr. Rk^e. You operate automatic phonographs? 

Mr. Bosch. Phonographs and pinball machines. 

Mr. Rice. Five balls? 

]Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. One balls? 

Mr. Bosch. Operate a few of them. 

Tlie Chairman. What is the name of this company, Mr. Bosch? 

Mr. Bosch. Avalone Amusement Co. 

Mr. Boyle. Senator, if I may interject this at this time : Mr. Bosch 
is here under a subpena apparently directed to him in his official 
capacity. I have no objection to j^our going into his personal affairs, 
but inasmuch as the subpena was directed to him and required him to 
produce books and records of the Amusement Association of New 
Orleans. I was wondering what the purpose of this questioning was 
at this time. 

The Chairmax. Well, he has already told about it, and it is rather 
something we are interested in. 

I didn't understand. Is this Avalone Amusement Co. a corporation 
or is that your own business? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. It belongs to me. Just the name Avalone 
Amusement, it is. I call it Avalone Amusement Co. ; it is strictly a 
name. 

The Chairman. AYhile we are in it, I think we might ask you, do 
you operate over a large section with this company ? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir; I operate approximately 30 pieces of equip- 
ment. 

The Chairman. Thirty what? 

Mr. Bosch. Thirty pieces of equipment. Equipment would be one 
music box or one pinball machine. We may cover an area, like,, if you 
are on Canal Street 

The Chairman. All in Orleans Parish? 

Mr. Bosch. All in Orleans Parish. 

The Chairman. That is the only annisement company you have? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes. 

The Chairman. You are the sole owner; you have no partners? 

jNIr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is correct? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

JNIr. Rice. You are president of what organization ? 

INIr. Bosch. Amusement Association of New Orleans. 

INIr. Rice. Amusement Association of New Orleans ? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Any other organization? 

68958— 51— pt. 8 22 



332 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMIVIERCE 

Mr. Bosch. Not at this particular time. I would like to say this : 
I was elected for a period of 2 years, I think it is January T of this 
year, 1951, my time is terminated, and I am really acting now tempo- 
rarily until the election is held, until they can vote in either — I may 
go back in or they may vote new oflS^cers. It is optional who they will 
vote in. 

Mr. Rice. That is the Amusement Association of New Orleans ? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat is the difference between that and the New Orleans 
Pinball Operators Association ? 

Mr. BoscH. It is no difference at all, sir. At a meeting we decided 
to change the name. 

Mr. Rice. About how long ago was that ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Rice. Well, in any event, the Amusement Association of New 
Orleans. 

Mr. BoscH. It may have been 10 months ago, maybe a year. It is 
hard to tell you exactly. You gentlemen have the records. They 
will speak, I am sure. 

Mr. Rice. Same records, same everything else ? 

Mr. BoscH. Yes, sir. Nothing has been changed but the name, 
which was changed to the Music Association. 

Mr. Rice. Is that a member of the Coin Machine Industries ? 

Mr. BoscH. Not now. In, I think it was the latter part of 1918 or 
part of 1949, we became what is known as an associate member. In 
other words, the Coin Machine Industries is, I believe, composed of 
the manufacturers of coin machines. 

Mr. Rice. Where is the headquarters of that ? 

Mr. Bosch. At the time we were a member of it, it was in Chicago. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Now, then, you no longer are a member ? 

Mr. BoscH. We are no longer. Our subscription ran for 1 year 
and we didn't renew it at the time. It went out. They came down 
and asked us to join. They were making a drive at that time on 
Damon Runyon Cancer Fund. I think some of you gentlemen may 
remember some of that. It was given wide publicity. That was the 
time we joined it. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. Who were the officers of the Amusement Associa- 
tion of New Orleans besides yourself ? 

Mr. Bosch. Mr. Ed Cramer is the vice president. Jules Perez is 
the secretary-treasurer. 

The Chairman. All right ; who else. Let's get on. 

Mr. BoscH. Mr. Louis Bozeburg is the public relations officer ; and 
then we have a committee, I think Mr. Bozeburg is on that committee. 
I don't remember the names just offhand. I think you have it there. 

Mr. Rice. Will it show on your letterhead ? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir ; it will be on the letterhead. 

Mr. Rice. Take some of these records down here and see if you can 
find it. 

Mr. Bosch. That will help a lot. 

Mr. Boyle. Have you a letterhead ? 

Mr. Bosch. No. 

Mr. Boyle. Mr. Rice, do you have a letterhead of the association? 

Mr. Rice. No ; I don't. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 333 

Mr. Bosch. You have a letterhead in with these books. I think you 
have a letterhead right there, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I am afraid I have an old one here. 

Mr. Bosch. Can I look at it? I can tell you if it is the same. 
[Examines letterhead.] No ; this has been changed, sir. Some officers 
at that time have left. 

The Chairman. Read the officers. 

Mr. BoscH. Finance committee was Winifred Christmas, E. Manuel 
Lansburg, Alton J. Martin, John E. Pierce, Jr. 

Executive committee was John E. Pierce, Jr., chairman, Winifred 
Christmas, Santa Defata, John Elms, Emanuel Lansburg, Alton J. 
Martin, Peter Estasa, James Talon, and Thomas Walsh. 

Mr. Rice, Now, sir, I hand you a document entitled "Rules, Regula- 
tions, and Code of Ethics." Is that the current Rules and Regulations 
and Code of Ethics? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. File that as exhibit No. 26. 

(The document was marked "Exhibit No. 26" and is on file with 
the committee.) 

Mr. Rice. Read item No. 40 there. 

Mr. Bosch (reading) : 

In order to help defray exi>enses and incidents to the purchase of city and 
State licenses, charity hospital, and Federal funds, etc., each operator is per- 
mitted to deduct $3 per machine per week before paying the commission for 
the location. 

Mr. Rice. So that says that the operator deducts $3 a week per 
machine before payment for location ? 

Mr. Bosch. I'm sorry, sir. It says "permitted." In other words, 
we do not object to it. It is not compulsory. That is up to the opera- 
tor himself whether he wants to deduct it or not. 

Mr. Rice. Now I am reading from an old letterhead entitled "New 
Orleans Pinball Operators Association. Regulations and Code of 
Ethics." Item No. 4 here says : 

Each operator is required to collect $3 per machine per week to help defray 
expenses such as city and State licenses, association dues, and miscellaneous 
expenses. 

That is substantially different from item No. 4 that you have read. 
What were these "Miscellaneous expenses" that have been deleted 
from item No. 4 ? 

Mr. Bosch. At the time that was written I didn't pay too much 
attention to it. When I got ahold of it I didn't appreciate the way 
it was written, and that is the reason I had it changed. That would 
go in for helping pay the mechanics or any help they may have pertain- 
ing to their business. 

Mr. Rice. I see. Now, did the association repair and service all of 
the machines of the member operators? 

Mr. BoscH. No, sir. The association does not repair any machines. 
Each operator maintains his own equipment and his own business. 

Mr. Rice. Wliere do the mechanics come in ? 

Mr. BoscH. The mechanics come in to the people that operate. In 
other words, if you are an operator or you would need a mechanic 
to keep your machines running. 

Mr. Rice. Why would that be an expense to the association? 

Mr, BoscH. It is not an expense to the association. 



334 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. It is not a miscellaneous machine expense, then. What 
were the miscellaneous expenses that you 

Mr. Bosch, We don't claim it as a miscellaneous expense in the 
association. 

Mr. Rice. No. What were the miscellaneous expenses for which 
the $3 per week per machine was collected ? 

Mr. Bosch. That is any miscellaneous expense they applied to. 

Mr. Rice. For instance? 

Mr. Bosch. Miscellaneous expense would be applied to. 

Mr. Rice. What would be one? 

Mr. BoscH. Let's say the mechanic's salary, in other words, they 
submit the association. 

Mr. Rice. No; this is the association. 

Mr. Bosch. The association does not collect that. The association 
has nothing- to do with that. That is a rule that he is permitted to do. 
In other words, he does not violate a rule if he collects $3 from each 
machine. He uses this money. 

Mr. Rice. Oh, I see. He does not turn this in to the association. 
He collects from the location ? 

Mr. Bosch. No ; not at all. He has nothing to do with that. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, that says to help defray expenses such as city 
and State licenses. At that time what were the city and State licenses ? 

Mr. Bosch. The city license Avas $50. The State license was $50. 
Charity Hospital 

Mr. Rice. At that time ? At the time this was in effect ? 

Mr. Boyle. What is the date? 

Mr. Rice. 1948. 

Mr. Boyle. 1948. 

Mr. Bosch. At that time there was some difference on city licenses, 
in that the legislature met and the city here was not permitted to 

Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, the city license was raised to $50 in 
1950, wasn't it? 

Mr. Boscii. No, sir. The license had been $50, I think, by an act 
of legislature as far back as 1945 or 1946, but in another act 

Mr. Rice. What was the city license in 1948, without anj- quibbling, 
what was the city license ? You know what it was. 

Mr. Bosch. It was $50, but there was an act of the legislature that 
forbade the city to collect it. 

Mr. Rice. So that they actually collected what, $2.50 didn't they? 

Mr. Bosch. Who collected $2.50? 

Mr. Rice. The city. 

Mr. Bosch. For the year 1948? I'm afraid I misunderstood you, 
sir. 

Mr. Rice. What was the city license? What city license were you 
talking about in your rules here in 1948? 

Mr. Bosch. That is the permit, the $50-a-year permit. 

Mr. Rice. What was the State license ? 

Mr. Bosch. $50 a year. 

Mr. Rice. So that it was a total of $100 for city and State license 
in 1948 ? 

Mr. Bosch. That's right. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that? 

Mr. Bosch. To the best of my knowledge. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 335 

Mr. Boyle. Mr. Rice, I might offer this explanation in connection 
■with that 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Boyle. The Louisiana LegisLiture met in the summer of 1948. 
Up until that meeting the city was authorized by State law to collect, 
if it saw fit to do so, a tax equal but not in excess of the tax imposed 
by the State, which was $50 at that time. Consequently, until the 
legislature met in the summer of 1948, and the law became effective 
some time in September of 1918, there was a law which prohibited 
cities or municipalities or parishes from assessing a like tax. But 
there was actually a city tax in effect in 1948, but in 1949 there was 
not. And that was straightened out again in the 1950 session of the 
legislature. 

Mr. Rice. Would I be wrong if I had the impression at one time 
the city license was $2.50 ? 

Mr. Boyle. I wouldn't say you would be wrong. 

Mr. Rice. I could be right? 

Mr. Boscii. You could be right. My recollection was it was the 
same as the State. 

Mr. Rice. Going down to item No. 6, it reads : 

All association operators must display association cards and name of com- 
pany on machines. Any machine picked up without an association card will 
not be represented by the association attorneys nor the association. 

Now I don't find that in your present regulations and code of 
ethics. What did you mean there by "any machine picked up?" 

Mr. Bosch, At the time the members would not identify their ma- 
chines. In that manner we have cooperated with the city and the 
State and asked our members to buy licenses. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, let me ask you this : What did you mean by 
^'picked up"? 

Mr. Bosch. I am getting to that, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Just give me the answer to the question. 

Mr. BoscH. If it was picked up by the police naturally we would 
not have our attorneys represent the case at all. 

Mr. Rice. What would the police pick up the machine for? 

Mr. Bosch. If they caught them paying off on it they would pick 
them up. 

Mr. Rice. Now the association has an attorney ? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who is the attorney? 

Mr. Bosch. Mr. Ed Boyle is one of them. 

Mr. Rice. Wlio else? 

Mr. Boscii. Mr. Lancaster. 

Mr. Rice. How long has Mr. Lancaster been in that capacity? 

Mr. Bosch. I think Mr. Lancaster has been since 1948, in my recol- 
lection, when I went in office. 

Mr. Rice. Now, does he have any official position in this area? 

Mr. BoscH. I think he does. 

Mr. Rice. What is that ? 

Mr. Boscii. I believe he is a city attorney ? 

Mr. Rice. He is a city attorney? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. He is also an attorney for the association? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 



336 ORGANIZED CRIME TN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Is he one of the ones who would represent a member when 
he had a machine picked up ? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir ; not necessarily. 

Mr. Rice. Could he do that? 

Mr. Bosch. He could, or Mr. Boyle could, whoever we gave the 
case to. 

Mr. Rice. Did he do tliat in any cases that you know of ? 

Mr. BoscH. Offhand, I don't recall any case. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, j^ou are president. Would you want to say 
he did not do that ? 

Mr. Bosch. In all fairness to me, sir, I would not be in position 
to say whether he did or not represent any case. If there was any 
cases given to him as of now^ I don't recall. If there was he would not 
represent them, I am sure. 

Mr. Rice. In any event, he was the attorney, and arrangements were 
for the association members to be represented by the association attor- 
ney if the police picked the machine up for paying off. Is that a 
fair statement? 

Mr. Bosch. Not only that; in any matters they would be represented. 
In other words, if a machine was picked up and we went to an attorney 
he may charge anything from three to five hundred dollars to handle 
the case, so in that way by having an attorney that was on a retainer 
fee he would handle it for us. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. I see on this letterhead, under the heading, 
"Executive committee," Andrew P. Monte, chairman, Louis Bozeburg, 
John Elms, and Angelo Jimelli. Who is Angelo Jimelli? 

Mr. BoscH. Angelo Jimelli is a police officer. 

Mr. Rice. Was he then ? 

Mr. Bosch. He was at the time. 

Mr. Rice. How came he to be a member of the association ? 

Mr. Bosch. At that time he asked to join, and we had no reason to 
turn him down. 

Mr. Rice. Was he an operator ? 

Mr. BoscH. Yes, sir ; he was. 

Mr. Rice. How many machines did he operate ? 

Mr. Bosch. He had around 14 or 15. 

Mr. Rice. No member could belong unless he had at least five ; could 
they? 

Mr. Bosch. If he had five ; that is right. We asked that they have 
five machines. 

Mr. Rice. I say, no member could belong unless he had at least five? 

Mr. Bosch. At least five machines. 

Mr. Rice. About how many did he have ? 

Mr. Bosch. I think between 14, 15, maybe 16. Approximately. 

Mr. Rice. And he was on the police force ? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice, What rank? 

Mr. Bosch. He was a patrolman. 

Mr. Rice. Was he also assigned to tlie pinball squad ? 

Mr. Bosch. I think later on, from what I understand. Now, this is 
hearsay, sir. I am not in position to prove this. I think Superintend- 
ent Waters called him in and gave him an assignment to check the 
pinballs and licenses and told him at the time he would have to get 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 337 

out of the pinball business, and he resigned at that time and sold his 
route. 

Mr. Rice. Who did he sell his route to ? 

Mr. Bosch. Mr. Cramer, Ed Cramer, purchased it. 

Mr. Rice. Did he sell it to Mr. Copeland? 

Mr. Boscii. Not that I know of. It is possible he could have sold 
some pieces. I can't speak for Mr. Jimelli. I do know that Mr. 
Cramer bought his route. Now whether he sold one or two pieces to 
someone else, that would be something I could not say. 

Mr. Rice. I notice from your journal, I believe that Jimelli appears 
in 1948. Then his name is scratched out and the name L. Copeland is 
inserted. 

Mr. Boscii. We may have — if he left the association. See, we use 
a number in there as we go along. If he left it it's possible Mr. Cope- 
land got his number. That's possible. 

Mr. Rice. That does not indicate he sold ? 

Mr. BoscH. No, sir; that would not mean that he purchased any 
machines. 

Mr. Rice. Is Mr. Jimelli still a member of the association ? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, how many members do you have in the 
association ? 

Mr. Bosch. I think we have approximately 45 or 46. 

Mr. Rice. And those are all operators? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have a record of the number of devices, pinballs, 
that each operator has and their location ? 

Mr. Boscii. We have as close a record as we can get. It is hard to 
get an accurate record. 

Mr. Rice. About what is the number of the total of the locations of 
the members of the association ? 

Mr. BoscH. I would say offhand, I think — you mean that belong to 
the association ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes ; how many locations in town ? This is just confined 
to the city area. 

Mr. BoscH. I am trying to clarify a question, sir. Are you talking 
about all machines operating in this city, or just 

Mr. Rice. Yes ; that belong to members of the association. 

Mr. BoscH. Just to the members ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Bosch. I would say maybe twelve hundred, maybe thirteen, 
maybe fourteen. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. What is the total, irrespective of whether they 
belong to members or not? 

Mr. Bosch. I would say around 3,000 would be a close figure. 

Mr. Rice. Around 3,000 pinballs? 

Mr. Bosch. I think so. 

Mr. Rice. And of the pinballs how many would you say were 
one-balls ? 

Mr. Bosch. It is a pretty hard question just to say, but I would 
imagine approximately six or seven hundred. I am kinda guessing 
at that, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. How many operators would you say are there in 
New Orleans who are not members of the association ? 



338 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Boscii. Oh, I would say there may be 50, 60, maybe 70. A lot 
of members operate two or three machines. A lot of people own their 
own machines. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. I show you a letter you produced dated 
March 30, 1948, from the Coin Machine Industries in Chicago, ad- 
dressed to you, over the signature of James A. Bilhnore, secretary- 
manager, in which the statement is made: 

liOU — ■ 

referring to Lou Bozeburg — 

told me that you discussed at your meeting after I left a basis on which your 
entire group might support this association and our legal and tax department, 
but that he was not sure that you would arrive at any definite amount. 

What was the proposition at that time? What support was con- 
templated for the legal and tax department of the Coin jMachine 
Industries ? 

Mr. Bosch. They sent one of their representatives down here and 
lie spoke at one of our meetings and he asked if we would take an. 
associate membership for $100. I told him I didn't think that we 
would, and that is what the discussion was. Then we agreed to take 
two memberships at $25 each — one for myself and one for the asso- 
ciation. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Did you go for that? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir; we did. 

Mr. Rice. And you supported their legal and tax department then? 

Mr. Bosch. I would not say we supported it. We merely joined up 
with them as a friendly gesture to cooperate with them and get their 
^ood will. 

Mr. Rice. Legally what benefit would that be to your association? 

Mr. Bosch. The benefit would be that any legislative bills, anything 
put up, they get a copy of them, mail them out to us and let us know 
what is going on, because the legislature from time to time has tried 
to raise the license from $100 to $150. If we don't watch our business 
we will be out of business. 

Mr. Rice. You might say it is more of a lobbying proposition than 
a legal business ? 

Mr. Bosch. I wouldn't know much about lobbying on it. It's just 
finding out what's going on. It's a man's right to protect his busi- 
ness, sir. If they get in there and run a license in that we can't afford 
to pay we would be out of business. 

Mr. Rice. Is one of the operators who is a member of the associa- 
tion a man by the name of Teddy Geigerman ? 

Mr. Bosch. There is a company in here which is the Smittj^ Novelty 
Co., whom I I'ecently understand that Teddy Geigerman is a partner 
or owner, owns some interest in it. It came in the association as the 
Smitty Novelty Co. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. I have noticed him in your records — Teddy Geiger- 
man. Is he any relation to Frank Costello ? 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, I really don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Have you heard that Frank Costello's wife's maiden name 
was Geigerman ? 

Mr. Bosch. I did hear some discussion about that. 

The Chairman. I think the record shows that. Let's move on. 

Mr. Bosch. It has been in the paper, and so forth, sir. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 339 

Mr. EicE. Ewald Grootch — Is he any relation to Jolinny Grosch? 
Mr. Boscii. No, sir. That is G-r-o-e-t-c-h. I don't think the sheriff 
spells his name that way. They have a grocery. They pronounce their 
name "Gretch." 
Mr. KiCE. Groetch ? 
Mr. Boscii. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, do you receive a salary from the association? 
Mr. Boscii. No, sir; we do not. No officer receives any com- 
pensation. 

Mr. EiCE. How about expenses ? 

Mr. Boscii. Well, in the beoinning I didn't get anything. I think 
in 1949, and part of 1950 — I would have to consult the records to be 
exact — I think we drew approximately $50 a month. I think the last 
3 months we were granted a raise to $75 a month. 

Mr. Rice. Raise to what? 

Mr. Bosch. $75 a month. 

Mr. Rice. So that your expenses are a fixed figure of $75 a month f 

Mr. Bosch. Thev allow that and it is up to us to get along on it. 

Mr. Rice. Who allows it? 

Mr. BoscH. The association itself — tlie members. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, these expenses; what do they consist of? 
Wliat do you use the money for ? 

Mr. Boscii. Well, if I have to go in town I may get a cab and 
come back in a cab. A location ma}- be dissatisfied and we check 
it and see if the operator is treating him right and M'hat is going on. 
Naturally when you walk in a place of business you have to spend a 
little money. 

Mr. Rice. During the month do you find you sometimes spend 
more than $75 ? 

Mr. BoscH. It has happened. 

Mr. Rice. And sometimes less? 

Mr. Boscii. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. The record, I believe, shows you drew a hundred dollars 
several months. Has there been a change? 

Mr. Bosch. A hundred dollars ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. BoscH. 1 think at times there was not sufficient money in the 
treasury to pay me for my expenses. If you will check the records 
back, that is the reason for the hundred dollars. I beg your pardon^ 
please, sir. If you will check the records farther back for 4 months 
we weren't able to draw anything. There was not enough money in 
the treasury. 

Mr. Rice. What are the arrangements with Mr. Lancaster? Is he 
on a salary ? 

Mr. Boscii. Yes. sir ; he receives a monthly salary, 

Mr. Rice. Is that an even figure ? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is it more than $300 ? 

Mr. Boscii. Yes. sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are there any deductions from that figure? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice.' That is a gi'oss figure ? 

Mr. Bosch. It is a retainer fee, is what it is considered, I under- 
stand. 



340 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Would that be correct, sir ? 

Mr. Rice. Possibly. Now, sir, does the association have any other 
lawyers besides Mr. Boyle and Mr. Lancaster? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you associated with Mr. Lancaster, Mr. Boyle? 

Mr. Boyle. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who is Clem Sehrt? 

Mr. Boyle. Clem Sehrt is my law partner. 

Mr. Rice. Your law partner. 

Here is a check dated July 8, 1948, in the amount of $2,400, to 
Clem Sehrt. Explain that. What is that for, Mr. Bosch? 

Mr. Boyle. Do you want your books for that month? 

Mr. Bosch, Yes. Let's see what this is. No ; I don't know whether 
it was or not. I would rather consult the books. The books will show 
what it is. 

The Chairman. All right ; suppose you do. 

Mr. Rice. Go ahead and consult the books. 

For your information, there is another check for $250 to Mr. Sehrt, 
if that will help you any. 

Mr. BoscH. AVhat date is it, sir ? 

Mr. Boyle. It probably is a contribution. 

Mr. BoscH. That is what I am looking for, the contribution. 

Mr. Boyle. Where is your receipt ? 

Mr. BoscH. Do you have my receipt book, sir? 

Mr. Boyle. Not your receipt. It would be 

Mr. Rice. Here 'is one dated July 24, 1950, to Mr. Sehrt for $250. 
What is that $2,400 one for ? 

Mr. Bosch. That is what I am trying to find, sir. 

Mr. Boyle. July 1948. 

Mr. BoscH. Oh, I remember what that is. I remember at the time, 
I don't think that — when the license was to be raised, raise in license 
$150 — and we asked for representation in Baton Rouge. 

The Chairman. All right, speak up so we can hear you. 

Mr. Bosch. About this time there was a bill went in the legislature 
to raise the license to $100 or $150, and put the pinballs and the slot 
machines in the same class, and we didn't agree with it. We didn't 
want the pinball put in the same class with the slot machines, because 
they were two different devices and therefore we had Mr. Sehrt at 
that time represent us. 

Mr, Rice, And that was his fee for that ? 

Mr, Bosch, That was his fee, sir. I think at that time we did not 
have — he was not retained by us. 

The Chairman, All right. Let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. All right. You say there are two different devices. I 
think we received a letter here the other day which said they were 
one-armed bandits, and one-ball bandits. 

Mr. Bosch, Well, that is possible. People will say those mean 
things. I mean there is quite a bit of difference in the operation. 

Mr, Rice. Here is a check dated Decemljer 16, 1949, drawn to L, 
Scanlan in the amount of $100. What would that be in connection 
with ? 

Mr. Bosch. That was a donation for campaign, sir. The check is 
marked at the top. 

Mr. Rice, Wliat was Mr, Scanlan campaigning for ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 341 

Mr. Bosch. I believe civil sheriff. 

Mr. Rice. Civil sheriff? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. KiCE. Did he become civil sheriff? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. In his job as civil sheriff does he have anything to do with 
the licensing of tax or stamps or what not? 

Mr. Bosch. Not to my knowledge, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, I take it from your answer that the association 
makes contributions to political campaigns. 

Mr. Bosch. The association itself doesn't make it; the members 
make it, and it is handled through the association. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. The association is doing it for the 
membei's ? 

Mr. Bosch. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. It is a concerted proposition. Now, then, how are the 
political candidates selected that will be supported by contribution 
through the association, or the association through the members? 

Mr, Bosch. I am afraid I don't follow you. 

Mr. Rice. How do you make your selection if there are two or more 
candidates running for office? What determines which candidates 
you will support and in what amount? 

Mr. Bosch. We don't pick any special candidates ; we probably give 
to all of them. 

Mr. Rice. You probably give to all of them? In equal amounts? 

Mr. Bosch. Sometimes in equal amounts, more or less. Not neces- 
sarily equal amounts; we might give one more than the other. 

Mr. Rice. Would that vary greatly, or — in other words, would you 
try to pick a winner, or 

Mr. Boscii. Well, naturally. It depends on the office. If a man 
is running for governor it requires' more money. If he's running for 
mayor it requires more money than if he is running for a small office. 
For instance, in the election of school-board officers a couple of months 
ago, which is a small election, we would give a small amount. 

Mr. Rice. Let's break this down as to amounts. Suppose someone 
■was running for Governor. About what would the association con- 
tribute — approximately ? 

Mr. Bosch. It depends on what we could give. If the boys by throw- 
ing in together could get 8 or 10 thousand together, we would decide 
if there was a three-faction run, we would split it accordingly. If Ve 
liked one faction a little better than the other we would give him a 
little more than the other. INIaybe we don't have a man that is a friend 
of ours. We would try to pick the man that would do a better job. 

Mr. Rice. Who would control the selection of who w^ould get the 
most ? 

Mr. Bosch. I beg your pardon, sir? 

Mr. Rice. Would that be by vote of the membership, the board, 
or the president ? 

Mr. BoscH. No, that would be — the members would agree. If any 
member had a friend in theip we thought would be good, a good 
governor for the city, we would be willing to support him. 

Mr. Rice. In a general membership meeting? 

Mr. Bosch. That is right. 



342 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, how much would the contributions vary for, 
say, the office of mayor? What would be the largest amount that 
might be given, and what would be the smallest, for one candidate? 

Mr. Bosch. Well, we had a peculiar election in our last election, 
and we supported Mayor Morrison ratlijer heavily. We became — ■ 
knew he had done a good job in office and we tried to i)ut him back. 
I think he has continued to do a good job. 

Mr. Rice. Would you say that you suppoi'ted him in excess of four 
figures ? 

Mr. Bosch. Definitely we supported him much more heavily than 
any other candidate. 

Mr. Rice. And some candidates as little as a hundred dollars? , 

Mr. Boscii. I think we gave a little more than that to a lesser can- 
didate. I think it was several hundred dollars. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. Well, for the city campaign, how much did you 
give ? Did you give $8,250 to the Morrison campaign ? 

Mr. BoscH. I think you have the complete records there, sir, what 
was given. 

The Chairman. All right, read it off? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes. This is it, sir. Do you want me to read it off? 

The Chairman. Well, the mayoralty campaign, what was it? 

Mr. Bosch. Morrison campaign was $8,250. 

The Chairman. Who were the other candidates for mayor? 

Mr. Bosch. Zatarian was $5,000. 

The Chairman. Was he a candidate for mayor? 

Mr. BoscH. Yes, sir; and Cobb was candidate for mayor. 

The Chairman. What did vou give to him ? 

Mr. BoscH. That was $150^ 

Mr. Alvin Cobb. That is not true. That is a trumped up 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, you have the signed receipt here, what I am read- 
ing. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. Mr. Cobb says he didn't get any. 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, you have his signed receipts. 

Mr. Cobb, That is not so. 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, you have his signed receipts. 

Mr. Cobb. That is not so. 

The Chairman. Show it to Mr. Cobb and see if he recognizes the 
receipt. 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, he signed it. 

(The receipt was thereupon handed to Mr. Cobb.) 

Mr. Cobb. It is a forgery. 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, he signed it. 

Mr. Cobb. It is a forgery. He and Detective Frank Marullo 

The Chairman. Just a minute. Wait a minute. 

Mr. Cobb. Detective Dayton tried to frame me • 

The Chairman. Mr. Cobb, Mr. Cobb. 

Mr. Cobb. Many a time, because I had the goods on him. 

The Chairman. If it is not your receipt 

Mr. Cobb. You're mighty right it's not my receipt. 

The Chairman. All right, we want to — we will correct it then if it 
is not your receipt. Just sit down back there where you are. 

Mr. Cobb. O. K. When you are ready I have everything here, my 
identification papers and all. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 343 

The Chairman. All rii>iit, you just sit down. 

Mr. Cobb. A last-minute frame-up. You won't get aw^ay with it. 

The Chairman. Now there is something I want to — well, in other 
words, I take it your people have a meeting and you just sort of decide 
what the consensus is and then act as a unit rather than as a 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir; we do. Instead of acting as each individual 
we try to act as a unit. 

(Mr. Boyle hands document to the chairman.) 

The Chairmax. Show that to Mr. Cobb. See if he recognizes it. 

Mr. Cobb. Senator, I sent you plenty communications. 

The Chairman. If that isn't yours you can say so. 

Mr. EicE. We'd better have him sworn if he's going to testify. 

Mr. Cobb. Of course not. Here's my signature. 

The Chairman. Sit down, Mr, Cobb. We wnll give you a. chance to 
deny it. 

Mr. Cobb. Take this back. It's not my signature. 

The Chairman. Mr. Cobb, if you can't be quiet we will have to have 
you put out of the hearing room. 

All right, Mr. Rice. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir ; do any of the operators receive payments from 
the association for any reason? 

Mr. Bosch. Clarify that a little. What do you mean by payments, 
sir? 

Mr. Rice, The dues and the money is a one-way proposition : It 
comes in from the operators in the association and out for campaign 
contributions and other expenses. Is that not correct? Is that a 
fair statement? 

Mr. Bosch, If I follow you I might get with you. 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

Mr, Bosch, In other words, let's say the operator comes in and 
pays his dues. Let's say his dues are $15, and he pays $15 ? 

Mr, Rice, Yes. 

Mr. Bosch. You want to know what happens to that money? 

Mr. Rice, No. I am asking if any of that money goes back to 
him for any reason, 

Mr, Bosch. He does not get any of it back unless he does some work 
for the association. If we send him somewhere and he is out some 
expense I would pay him. If he uses his car to make a trip to see 
somethino;, and so forth, he will get it back. If it were not used, if 
we should abandon the association, any moneys left would be equally 
divided, 

Mr. Rice, When an operator or member receives some payment of 
that type, do you keep voucher or receipt or invoice or notation of the 
expense, the purpose of it ? 

Mr, BoscH. Yes, sir; like this here. Whatever is spent we get a 
notation or voucher. 

Mr, Rice, I show you a check dated March 2, 1948, No. 7, and 
drawn to A. Jimelli, in the amount of $70.70. I wonder if you can 
tell me what that check is for ? 

Mr. BoscH, Yes; I believe I can tell you what that is. Let's see. 
That was in 1948. There was an election at that time. At this time 
Mr. Jimelli, as you will see by the record, was an officer of this com- 
pany. He was on a committee, 

Mr. Rice, Yes ; and he was also on the police department. 



344 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Bosch. That is right, sir. We picked him, and I think two or 
three other men, on a committee which you have some cliecks there 
that will show, to take up a donation which at that time we had not 
been getting a donation. We went to the boys and asked them to make 
a donation for this campaign, and we gave them 10 percent for collect- 
ing. In other words, for their expense, the use of their car, and 
trouble they received 10 percent, and there are two or three more 
checks besides this. 

Mr. Rice. Let me see if I have that clear. This police officer then 
went out and did some collecting of what kind ? 

Mr. Bosch. Sir ; not to interrupt you, but we did not send him out 
as a police officer. He, to us, was an operator. I sent him out as a 
member, not as a police officer. 

Mr. Rice. As a matter of fact, he was a full time police officer, was 
he not? 

Mr. Bosch. Sir ; I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Can you separate the man ? 

Mr. Bosch. I can't tell you he is a full time. I don't know whether 
after 8 hours they are free to work, or what it is. That I can't truth- 
fully answer. 

Mr. Rice. What did he do ? 

Mr, BoscH. He went out to the members and explained we were 
taking up donations for this campaign, and asked them what they 
want to give. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Bosch. Whatever amount they would give he gave them a re- 
ceipt for it. 

Mr. Rice. I take it he was fairly persuasive. 

Mr. Bosch. That is a question I can't answer you. The other men 
brought in an equal amount of money, sir. I don't know why he 
would be more persuasive than the other ones. 

Mr. Rice. I show you a check dated April 8, 1950, drawn to the 
Police Mutual Benefit Association in the amount of $30. 

The Chairman. Well, I think, to expedite this, I find a whole lot of 
checks in here to Louisiana Sheriffs Magazine, $125. 

Mr. Bosch. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. New Orleans police pension fund, $100; and sev- 
eral to the pension fund, and several to the Sheriffs Magazine. 

Mr. Bosch. I think there are two to the Sheriffs Magazine, twice. 
They asked those. We took ads in the magazine. 

The Chairman. Yes. What this really amounts to, isn't it, Mr. 
Bosch, the indiAddual operators can pay their dues and they are 
charged off as a business expense and it comes to you and you make 
contributions to charities and to benevolent funds, and also political 
campaigns? 

Mr. Bosch. Well, on the political campaign, they get a receipt, and 
there is why the political contribution is not tax free. 

The Chairman. But you put all the money in one pot ? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. We do not. 

The Chairman. You do not? 

Mr. Bosch. Not on the political campaigns. We keep that separate. 

The Chairman. So when some amount is collected from an oper- 
ator for a political campaign, does he specify what candidates he wants 
it to go to ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 345 

Mr. Bosch. No. sir ; he does not at the time that we make a donation 
all of that is consulted and what we will approximately give to each 
candidate. 

The Chairman. Aside from the dues. You don't put the dues in 
the political campaigns; you go around and collect additional 
amounts? 

Mr. Bosch. We don't go. I mean they come to the office. We have 
a secretary. They pay their dues and receive a receipt for it. 

The Chairman. I mean the dues do not go into political campaigns. 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. The actual dues, in other words, money that 
it costs to run the organization, does not go in with the political cam- 
paign. That is kept separate. 

The Chairman. You decide then, your board of directors or your 
political group, who you want to get behind, and? then let the members 
know some way or another; anyway, they do find out and they gome 
around and make a donation which is then used for the campaign? 

Mr. Bosch. That is right, sir. 

Mr. KiCE. Who is this Gambino, $3,000? 

Mr. Bosch. Dr. Frank Gambino. He ran for one of the city com- 
missioners. 

The Chairman. It is usually your practice to put something on 
everybod3''s side, isn't it ? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, the purpose of that is whoever gets elected 
you have got a little influence? 

Mr. Bosch. Well, I would not put it that way, sir. Dr. Gambino is 
a friend of mine, and 

The Chairman. I am not talking about Dr. Gambino; I am talking 
about the general practice of helping everybody so that nobody can 
take any particular offense against you supporting one fellow. 

Mr. Bosch. That is the way we feel, sir. We help them all and 
make no enemies like that. 

The Chairman. That is a fair enough answer. 

Mr. Bosch. We feel we are being fair by doing it. 

Mr. Klein. May I ask a question? 

The Chairman. Let me ask this: Do you get $3 a year? Is that 
what you get from each one of these places ? 

Mr. Rice. A week, per machine. 

The Chairman. How much are the dues ? 

Mr. Bosch. The dues : Here they are here, sir. 

The Chairman. $3 a month, or $3 a week? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. The dues are here. In 1948. 

The Chairman. I know. What is the rate of your charge ? 

Mr. Bosch. It is a charge per month. 

The Chairman. How much is it per month ? 

Mr. Bosch. In 1948 the dues were ranging amounts on machines. 
In other words, if a man's got 10 machines, it isn't fair to charge him 
as much as a man that may have 50, and the boys were dissatisfied 
about that. As we went on we continued to make changes. For 
instance, ordinarily we had one operator that may have 20 machines. 
We may ask him to pay $25. Another man had 10 machines, we may 
ask him to pay $10 or $12. Some of the smaller operators felt that 
the larger operators were not paying enougli; they wanted them to 
pay according to the number of machines, so in 1950 here we reached 



346 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

an agreement about 3 months ago of an average of approximately 
$2.50 a machine per month. That way for each operator it wonld 
be fair to him. Fifty cents would be set aside over a period of several 
months until we had a few dollars put aside for our contributions. 

The Chairman. $2.50 per machine per month. That would be about 
$4,000 per month. 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. It does not amount to that. The figures are 
right here. I have the figures right here. 

The Chairman. I thought you had about 1,400 members. 

Mr. Bosch. I told you, sir, approximately. 

The Chairman. It would be about $3,500. 

Mr. Boscii. I can give them to you exactly here, sir. Here is one 
for December of 1950. Do you want me to read it to you ? 

The Chairman. Just the total number you have. 

Mr. Bosch. The total number of it : This is disbursements on this 
side. 

Mr. Boyle. Collections, $1,971. 

Mr. Bosch. $1,971, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. What would your total income from dues be in a year? 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, I Avould have to take all this and add it together to 
find out. 

Mr. Rice. Approximately? You must know what your annual 
take is. 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, we don't have a budget. We run from month to 
month. These boys can disband this association any time they want to. 

Mr. Rice. You are the president now. What is the total of the 
dues for a year, ap])roximately ? 

Mr. BoscH. Sir, I will still have to check it because we just recently 
agreed to go on this machine basis. Previous to that, back in here 

Mr. Rice. All right, let's take back in a year that is past, like 1948, 
1949, or 1950 ; any year. 

Mr. Bosch. I would still have to check each record to find the 
amount, sir, to give you a proper answer. 

Mr. Rice. Would it be more than $100,000? 

The Chairman. Let's get on. 

Mr. Rice. More than $100,000 ? 

Mr. Bosch. It would not be nowhere near that per year. 

Mr. Rice. What would it be? 

Mr. Bosch, You are asking me an unfair question, sir; you are 
trying to force an answer without me looking at my records. How can 
I do that? 

Mr. Rice. If you can't answer, that's your best answer. 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, I'm trying to help you. I don't want to lie to you. 
My records are here. 

Mr. Rice. Let me ask you this. Did you ever tell anyone, operator 
or prospective operator or person in the location, that you could 
make the arrangements for the return of any machines seized as the 
result of police raids, and that you would be able to furnish legal 
service through Blair Lancaster ? 

Mr. Bosch. No. sir. That would be impossible. I could not get 
any machines back at any time. If a man's machine is picked up, it 
it up to him to plead the case or have the attorney plead it. If he 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 347 

pleads guilty, the machines can be gotten back because they are not 
considered gambling devices. 

Mr. Rice. You are quite sure you never told that to anyone? 

Mr. Bosch. Definitely not. I don't even ask anyone to join the 
association, sir. 

ISIr. Rice. You never told anyone that ? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. You just have pinball machines. You don't have 
any slot machines ? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir; I do not. Just pinballs. 

Mr. Rice. Do you operate in more than one county ? 

Mr. Bosch. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And you have all kinds' of pinball machines, differ- 
ent kinds ? 

Mr. Bosch. Well, different makes. Chicago Coin, Gottleib, Jen- 
nings Co. 

The Chairman. Some of these operators in your association have 
slot machines out in the other counties? 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, I wouldn't know. To my knowledge, I don't know. 
It is possible, though. 

The Chairman. Now, if you have done Mr. Cobb a wrong here, I 
think this ought to be cleared up. Here is what purports to be a 
receipt. 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, this man got this money and signed a voucher. 
Everyone else that signed the voucher got the money. I have no 
reason to bring a voucher in ; I have nothing against Mr. Cobb, sir. 

The Chairman. That seems to be a cash receipt voucher. 

Mr. Bosch. That is what it is, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you there? 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. He definitely got the money. 

The Chairman. He came to see you about it? 

Mr. Bosch. That's right; right in my office, sir. I have two wi,tj 
nesses that he was in there getting it. Sir, I'm not here to do anybody 
any harm. 

Mr. Cobb. May I say something? 

The Chair:\ian. I just want to ask you that question. 

Mr. Cobb. I wish you would have my signature verified at the Whit- 
ney National Bank, and all over. You will acknowledge I am an in- 
telligent man, and I was opposing the racketeers like he and Morri- 
son, and why would I give him a receipt for $150? 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, I think Mr. Cobb is out of order, talking about 
racketeers. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Cobb, just a minute. The only ques- 
tion was this gentleman says that you got this money, that he made 
a contribution, he made contributions to the others, that yours was 
less than the others, and that he was there and had two witnesses that 
you got the money, and your signatui'e is on here. I don't know 
whether it is your signature or not. I just wanted to give you an 
opportunity of saying whether you got it or not. You raised some 
question. I didn't want anything else. If you wish to reply to that, 
I mean one way or the other 

Mr. Cobb. I didn't hear you, sir. 

6S958 — 51— pt. 8 23 



348 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. I say, did you get the money or not ? You made 
some question about it. 

Mr. Cobb. I firmly and emphatically deny that I received it. I 
was a candidate for mayor, and I can furnish by radio station WNOE 
all my talks opposing his racket, Lancaster's, and Morrison's. Surely 
he would not give me $150. I would not be so simple to give some- 
thing like that, a receipt for it. I never was that stupid. 

The Chairman. This is, of course, $750 

Mr. Cobb. I thought it was $150. 

The Chairman. Sit down, please. This is $750. 

Mr. Cobb. Not for $7,000 would I deal with rats like thai. 

The Chair:man. Sit down, Mr. Cobb. 

Deputy Marshal Burglass. Order. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Bosch, you were there personally. AVlio 
were the people present when he signed this receipt? 

Mr. Bosch. My wife was in there, and — my wife was in there, and 
I think a little secretary. I am most sure. I would like to ask her, 
to be sure, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Now, the last entry here is $2.50 per 
month per machine. What are the current dues ? 

^Ir. BoscH. That is them, sir. Tliat is wliat the boys agreed on, 
$2.50 per machine. That is for a period of several months until they 
build up their bank balance. If you will look at it you will know 
the bank balance is less than $100. 

The Chairman. As I understand your position, Mr. Bosch, you 
are trying to promote good trade practices among these operators 

Mr. Bosch. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. To keep out bad operators, and so forth. 

Mr. Bosch. We try to screen them, sir, to the best of our ability. 

The Chairman. And that you are trying to keep public opinion 
from getting down on the operations. 

Mr. Bosch. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. And that you don't promote any gambling or 
anything of that sort with them. 

Mr. Bosch. We do not, sir. 

The Chairman. What if you found out some of them are gambling 
with their machines ? 

Mr. Bosch. We advise them not to. If necessary we would not 
let them stay in the association. We also don't want them to make 
a practice of putting machines close to schools, because it creates an 
ill will which we don't appreciate. It puts bad will on the machines 
we are operating. 

Mr. Klein. Mr. Bosch, you said there were about 3,000 machines 
in the city. 

Mr. Bosch. I said approximatelv, sir. I wouldn't want to be held 
to that. It may be 2,800 ; it may be 3,100. 

Mr. Klein. Mayor Morrison testified yesterday that there were 
only 2,000 licenses issued. 

Mr. Bosch. That is possible, sir. 

Mr. Klein. Now, would it be a fair assumption then that there are 
a thousand unlicensed machines operating? 

Mr. Bosch. Sir, some operators will not buy a license. They don't 
want to buy a license. They think they don't have to. That is the 
reason some of them won't join the association, because in our associa- 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 349 

tion Ave want our men to buy a license. They are running a business 
and Ave Avant it licensed. 

Mr. Klein. I merely Avant to know, sir, if it is fair to assume there 
are about a thousand machines operating without a license? 

Mr. Bosch. It's possible, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. All right. That's all. 

(Witness excused.) 

(Short recess.) 

(Mr. Beauregard Miller Avas called as a witness, sworn by the 
Chairman and asked to stand aside until his counsel was present.) 

The Chairman. Suppose while we are waiting for his laAAyer that 
Ave let any other witnesses who are outside come in. Let any other 
Avitnesses come in and sit down if they are not already in the hearing 
room. 

Mr. Knop, haA'e you adAnsed with the various witnesses as to Avhether 
an}^ of them Avant to be heard ? 

(Bench conference Avith Mr. Knop.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Knop, will you invite all of the witnesses Avith 
their lawyers, or all of the witnesses to come in and sit in the hearing 
room, so Ave can talk to them. 

(Whereupon, the Avitnesses who had been excluded from the court- 
room were permitted to enter and to hear the remaining portions of 
the hearing.) 

TESTIMONY OF GEOEGE REYER, NEW ORLEANS, LA., ACCOMPANIED 
BY WARREN 0. COLEMAN, ATTORNEY, NEW ORLEANS, LA. 

Mr. Coleman. I am just going to put those same reservations in 
Avith reference to the quorum and that the witness here appears not 
voluntarily but by compulsion. Please reserve that to me and note 
that as an exception. 

The Chairman. We understand. 

Let's get doAvn to the pertinent questions. 

Mr. Rice. Your name is George Reyer ? 

Mr. Beyer. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you solemnly swear the testimony you give 
this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Beyer. I do. 

Mr. Rice. Where do you live, Mr. Reyer ? 

Mr. Reyer. 4044 Vendome Place. 

Mr. Rice. Noav, sir, were you formerly chief of police somewhere ? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir ; superintendent of police here in New Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. Hoav long were you superintendent of police in New 
Orleans ? 

Mr. Reyer. About 15 years ; a little better. About 28 years and 7 
months in the department. 

Mr. Rice. Wlien did you leave the department? 

Mr. Reyer. 1946. 

Mr. Rice. 1946 ? 

Mr. Reyer. The beginning of the year — in May. 

Mr. Rice. What could you do now, sir — what is your business now? 

Mr. Reyer. Well, I don't particularly have any business. I am 
doing some investigating work for the Daily Sports NeAVs. 



350 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. You do investigative work for the Daily Sports News? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat is the Daily Sports News ? 

Mr. Reyer. Well, my job is to check and see if anybody is tamf)ering 
with the lines they use — services. 

Mr. Rice. They are in the racing-wire-service business? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who is the boss of that outfit? 

Mr. Reyer. A man named Fogarty is the only man I know. 

Mr. Rice. John Fogarty, the witness that appeared previously ? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir ; yesterday. 

Mr. Rice. What are your particular duties with the Daily Sports 
News as an investigator ? 

Mr. Reyer. To see if anything is tapping on the lines, see if any- 
body is making a tap on the lines, cutting the lines or anything. 

Mr. Rice. How do you do that? 

Mr. Reyer. Drive around throughout the city. 

Mr. Rice. Do they have customers? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes; they have customers. 

Mr. Rice. And are they located in the city? 

Mr. Reyer. In the city and out of the city. 

Mr. Rice. Where are some of the customers of the Daily Sports 
News who have lines in the city ? 

Mr. Reyer. The ones I mostly handle are in the country parishes. 

Mr. Rice. Most of them are in the parishes ? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know" of any in the city ? 

Mr. Reyer. Offhand, no; I don't know. There was one, I believe, 
around St. Charles Street, 800 block St. Charles. 

Mr. Rice. Was that a handbook? 

Mr. Reyer. It was. 

Mr. Rice. Is that still running? 

Mr. Reyer. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Wliere was that, on St. Charles ? 

Mr. Reyer. In the 300 block, I believe. 

Mr. Rice. Wliat was the name of the customer? 

Mr. Reyer. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Was it upstairs ? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is it still running? 

Mr. Reyer. I don't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You are an investigator, are you not? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. When you check a wire, what do you do? Who are you 
looking for to be tapped onto the wnre ? 

Mr. Reyer. See if anybody is tapped on the wires ; see if the wires 
are tapped. 

Mr. Rice. Wliy would anyone tap the wires? 

Mr. Reyer. I wouldn't know, sir. That is the purpose of my job. 

Mr. Rice. This is a Western Union wire you are talking about? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes ; a service wire. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever been a telephone man? 

Mr. Reyer. No. 

Mr. Rice. Have you had telephone-tap training ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 351 

]Mr. Reyek. No; but I am a pretty good investigator in the police 
dei)artment. 

Mr. EiCE. Do you know liow to put on a teleplione tap? 

]\rr. Reyer. No, sir. 

jNIr. Rice. How do you find a tap? 

]Mr. Reyek. You can tell a teleplione wire that's tapped. 

Mr. Rice. How can you tell ? 

Mr. Reyer. Well, you can see the wires running off another line. 

Mr. Rice. You trace the wire ; if you see anything running oft' of it 
you know it's tapped? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

]\Ir. Rice. Now, then, have you ever found a tap? 

Mr. Reyer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How long have you been doing that? 

Mr. Reyer. I guess about 4 years, I imagine. 

]Mr. Rice. Were you employed by Daily Sports News before that? 

Mr. Reyer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Now", before 1946 did you receive any pay from the Daily 
Sports News? 

Mr. Reyer. No ; I was working for the city of New Orleans. 

]Mr. Rice. And while you were working for the city of New Orleans 
you received no pay from Daily Sports News? 

]\lr. Reyer. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Rice, And iimnediately upon your separation from employ- 
ment by the city of New Orleans did you go to work for the Daily 
Sports News ^ 

JNIr. Reyer. I don't know whether it would be immediate or not, but 
somewhere around that time. 

Mr. Rice. Is that a full-time job, sir? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rtce. Now, then, do yon know 

Mr. Reyer (continuing). It's an investigator's work. That has 
been mostly my line. 

The Chairman. Well, I take it the purpose is to see whether some- 
body is stealing the information off the wire? 

]\Ir. Re^t^r. Yes, sii'. Either that or stealing or cutting in on it. 

]Mr. Rice. Now. sir, do you have any connection with the 407 Club ? 

Mr. Reyer. I did. No, sir ; I don't have any now. 

Mr. Rice. When did you have a connection wdth the 407 Club? 

Mr. Reyer. A few years there around 1946; 3 or 4 years, starting 
1946. Around 1946-47. 

Mr, Rice. ^^Hiat av as your connection ? 

Mr. Reyer. I was a partner in the club. 

Mr. Rice. You were a partner in the club. What kind of club 
was it ? 

]Mr. Reyer. It was a club that constituted sports. 

Mr. Rice. Was it a gambling club? 

Mr. Reyer. That's it. 

Mr. Ric^e. Did you participate in the profit of the 407 Gambling 
Club? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Were you connected with the club when you were super- 
intendent of police? 



352 ORGANIZED CRIME IX INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Reyer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Were you connected with any gambling club wlien you 
were superintendent of police? 

Mr. Reyer. No, sir; none whatsoever. 

Mr. Rice. How about the Monticello Club ? 

Mr. Reyer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How did you become connected with the Monticello 
Club? 

The Chairman. He said he was not. 

Mr. Reyer. He said when I was superintendent of police, Mr. 
Kefauver. 

Mr. Rice. You are connected with the Monticello Club, are you not ? 

Mr. Reyer. Not now. 

Mr. Rice. You have been ? 

Mr. Reyer. My interest in the 407 Club was connected in there. 

Mr. Rice. You had 407 and Monticello both ? 

Mr. Reyer. Tied in together ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. The same ownership. 

Mr. Reyer. I think they had some others. 

Mr. Rice. Wlio were the partners in the 407 ? 

Mr. Reyer. Mr. Mills and his son and myself. Three of us. 

Mr. Rice. Henry Mills ? 

Mr. Reyer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What Mills? 

Mr. Reyer. Mr. Frank and his son Alton. 

Mr. Rice. Frank and his son, Alton. How about the Monticello 
Club? 

Mr. Reyer. I have never been in that place. 

Mr. Rioe. You didn't have any interest in that ? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes ; but I have never been in it. 

Mr. Rice. What was your interest ? Were you a partner ? 

Mr. Reyer. The 407 Club was a part of it. 

Mr. Rice. I don't get the distinction. 
- Mr. Reyer. 407 was a part of the Monticello Club. 

Mr. Rice. It was all in the same place ? 

Mr. Reyer. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. I see. So it was the same ownership ? 

Mr. Reyer. Practically. I don't know who all was in the Monti- 
cello Club. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, did you have an interest in the Club Forest ? 

Mr. Reyeb. Not a nickel's worth ; never have. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever received any money from the Club Forest? 

Mr. Reyer. Not a nickel's worth. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever announce that you had an interest in the 
Club Forest? 

Mr. Reyer. Never did. 

Mr. Rice. Never made a statement to that effect ? 

Mr. Reyer. If I did it would be in a joke of a way ; there never was 
no truth in it. I did not have any and don't have any now. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Osmond Litolff ? 

Mr. Reyer. I know Litolff all my life, practically. 
. Mr. Rice. Did you have any business connection with him ? 

Mr. Reyer. None whatsoever. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 353 

Mr. Rice. Now, do you have any interest in the Riverview Chib ? 

Mr. Reyer. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever had ? 

Mr. Reyer. 407 Chib had an interest in it. 

Mr. Rice. What was that ? All the same place, all the same address ? 

Mr. Reyer. No ; it was a different address. 

Mr. Rice. Different club ? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Same group running three operations. 

Mr. Reyer. There were other people in the other places, and the 
407 Club 

Mr. Rice. "Who were the principals in the Riverview Club ? 

Mr. Reyer. I wouldn't know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who were the principals in the 407 Club. They were the 
same ones, were they not ? • 

Mr. Reyer. Mr. Mills and his son. 

Mr. Rice. The same group and you ? 

Mr. Reyer. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, no longer have you interest in any of these 
clubs ? 

Mr. Reyer. Nothing. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Rice. Your only business interest today is this 

Mr. Reyer. I am an investigator for the Daily Sports News. 

Mr. Rice. Wasn't Henry Mills in the Riverview Club ? 

Mr. Reyer. He could have been. I would not know, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Wliile you were part of the partnership ? 

Mr. Reyer. He could have been. I don't think I have been in that 
place twice in my life. He could have been partner ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you live in Orleans Parish ? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir ; on Vendome Place. 

Mr. Rice. Now, then, you were at one time president of the Ameri- 
can Police Superintendents? 

Mr. Reyer. No ; it was the International Chiefs of Police Associa- 
tion. 

Mr. Rice. You were at one time president of the International Asso- 
ciation of Chiefs of Police ? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. Reyer. 1937, I think. 1937. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, don't you have some other appointment here 
recently ? 

Mr. Reyer. Well, an honorary position, civil service board. 

Mr. Rice. Honorary position with the civil service? 

Mr. Reyer. No salary. 

Mr. Rice. Tell us about that? 

Mr. Reyer. It is the civil service commission. I imagine people 
know what that is. 

Mr. Rice. What is that? 

Mr. Reyer. Civil service commission. It's made up to protect em- 
ployees in their jobs, to keep people from being removed for politi- 
cal reasons. 

Mr. Rice. You are an honorary member of the civil service com- 
mission ? 



354 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Reyer. I am a member of it. The job is an honorary job. 

Mr. Rice. Aren't you an actual member of the commission? 

Mr. Reyer. That is wliat it is. 

Mr. Coleman. He means he does not get a salary. 

Mr. Reyer. I don't get no salary. No salary is attached to the job. 

Mr. Rice. I'll read you a bulletin here : 

Former Superintendent of Police George Reyer has been appointed by Gov. 
Earl K. Long as a member of tlie city civil service commission to fill the vacancy 
created by the expii'ation of the term of Joseph Montgomery ; in accordance with 
the 104S amendment of the city civil service law two members of the commis- 
mission are appointed by the Governor of Louisiana, the third member is ap- 
pointed by the Commission Council of the City of New Orleans. Other mem- 
bers are Herman Barnett and Edward D. Rapier. 

The Chairman. What is the date of that, January 15 ? 

Mr. Rice. January la, 1951. 

Mr, Reyer. Yes, but November is when I went on it. I have been 
on it about 3 months. 

Mr. Rice. Now, sir, you say that at this time you do not have directly 
or indirectly any interest in a gamblincr establishment or enterprise? 

Mr. Reyer. None whatsoever. 

Mr. Rice. But you remain on as an investigator for the Daily Sports 
News? 

Mr. Reyer. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Anything else? 

Did you have an interest in the Bank Club? 

Mr. Reyer. No, sir. I heard of the place but I have no interest 
in it. 

The Chairman. Does Raymond Fizaldi have any? 

Mr. Reyer. I don't know him, Mr. Kefauver. I can't place the 
name. As a matter of fact, I know of the Bank Club. I hear of it, 
but I don't even know where it is at. 

The Chairman. All right. 

Mr. Reyer. Am I released from the subpena? 

Mr. Klein. You remain under subpena. 

The Chairman. We will let you know if we want you any more. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Miller, will you come around? 

Mr. Weinstein, you are here now, I believe. 

jNIr. Weinstein. Mr. Chairman, I want to say this to you : That I 
apologize for not being here when you called his case. 

The Chairman. That is all right. 

Mr. Weinstein. I have been here for 2 days and last night; and it 
just happened at that time. 

The Chairman. That would be the time when we called you. 

Mr, Weinstein. Not through any fault of yours; it is my fault. 

The Chairman. Now, I will say, Mr. Weinstein, and Mr. Miller, 
what we want to ask your client about, Mr. Miller about, is as town 
marshal out here, if he knows about this operation why he does not 
do something about it. That is all. 

Mr. Weinstein. Well, may I say something, Mr. Chairman, please, 
sir? 

The Chairman. Yes. But make your objection. 

Mr. Weinstein. I will make it very brief. 

The Chairman. Very brief. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 355 

Mv. Weinstein. Yes, sir; very brief. T know that yon will permit 
me to say a few words. After all, he is town marshal, and Ave think 
a respected citizen of his community, and since you are so kind as 
to tell me the purpose of the questionino;:, and just exactly what you 
will ask him, I think I would like to consult with Mr. Miller first 
and then I would like to say something else to Your Honor, if you 
will just give me a minute. 

The Chairman. All right. If you will consult 

Mr, Weinstein. If I can get awa}^ from this microphone. 

The Chairman. All right. You take him around back here to 
consult. 

Is ]\Ir. Fogartj^ here ? 

Mr. "Weinstein. I won't take too long. 

FURTHER TESTIMONY OF JOHN J. FOGARTY. NEW ORLEANS, LA., 
ACCOMPANIED BY WARREN 0. COLEMAN, ATTORNEY, NEW 
ORLEANS, LA. 

(Mr. Fogarty was previously sworn by the chairman.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Fogarty, when we last talked with you you 
were going to find out, I believe, who you paid for your wire service. 
I think we asked you to find that out. 

Mr. Coleman. I think the question he was to find out was how long 
it was that he started to purchase from Continental, and he found 
that out. 

The Chairman, Yes, and if he sometimes — all right, did he find 
that out ? 

Mr. Fogarty. 1939. 

The Chairman. That is when you started with the Continental? 

Mr. Fc>GARTY, That is right. 

The Chairman. Did you also check to see whether it was Conti- 
nental you paid or whether it was the Illinois Sports News? 

Mr, Fogarty, Continental Press. 

The Chaiiuvian, You got it directly from Continental ? I mean you 
paid Continental yourself ? 

Mr, Fogarty. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you didn't go through any Illinois Sports 
News? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you know any of the Continental officials — 
Mr. Tom Kelly? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You dealt with him directly? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes, sir, 

Mr, KiCE. Did you make some special arrangements? A general 
method of doing business with Continental, at least in later years, as 
you undoubtedly very well know that they would furnish distribu- 
tors, like the Illinois Sports News, or the Howard Publishing Co, in 
Baltimore, and then these distributoi-s in turn would sell to subdis- 
tributors ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I had no agreement with Mr. Kelly like that at all. 

The Chairman. You just dealt directly with Continental? 

Mr. Fogarty. That is the reason I bought the service from Conti- 
nental. 



356 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

The Chairman. Did you have a written agreement with them ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever buy any service from Trans- America? 

Mr. FoGARi-Y. I refuse to answer that question, sir, for fear it may 
incriminate me. 

The Chairman. You won't answer whether you ever bought any 
service from Trans- America ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. No, sir. 

The Chairman. I believe we have already agreed that we under- 
stand he is directed to answer ? 

Mr. Coleman. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you have any dealings with Ralph O'Hara? 
Do you know Ralph O'Hara, of Chicago, 111. ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Hymie Levin ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't know him. 

The Chairman. Ray Jones? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't know him. 

The Chairman. Jack Guzik? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't know him. 

The Chairman. A fellow named Katz ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't know him. 

The Chairman. Now how did you arrive at the amount of your 
contract with Tom Kelly ? I mean, did you bargain back and forth 
or how did you arrive at that ? 

Mr. Fogarty. In which way do you mean ? 

The Chairman. How did you decide how mu«h you were going to 
pay him and how did he decide how much he was going to charge 
you? That is, Mr. Kelly, of Continental Press Service? 

Mr. Fogarty. We decided on a rate per week. 

The Chairman. Did you negotiate with him? 

Mr. Fogarty. It was not a fixed rate. 

The Chairman. Did you negotiate with him in person or by cor- 
respondence ? 

Mr. Fogarty. In person. 

Mr. Rice. You went to Chicago to see him, or he came down here? 

Mr. Fogarty. I went to Chicago to see Mr. Kelley. 

The Chairman. You say it was not a fixed rate ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No. Not in this respect : There was a fixed rate for 
me but if conditions were bad, and I could not meet the obligation 
weekly, they gave me consideration. 

The Chairman. Do you remember the amount that you were sup- 
posed to pay him ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I think it was $4,000 a week. 

The Chairman. Four thousand a week? 

Mr. Fogarty. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you keep up that sort of payment all along? 

Mr. Fogarty. No; I could not. 

The Chairman. How much did it get down to ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Oh, I would say it got down to some weeks I was 
not able to give him anything. 

The Chairman. Whenever you could you gave him $4,000 a week? 

Mr. Fogarty. That is right. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 357 

The Chairman. Then when you weren't doing very well, would you 
call him up and tell him that week you could not pay him $4,000, or 
how would you do that ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I would call him and tell him that things were bad 
at the present time, and I just wanted relief. He would tell me to do 
the best I could. 

The Chairman. Mr. Fogarty, did you have some arrangement with 
him sort of like this : Out of what you took in you and your company 
or your partnership would keep so much and then you would send him 
the rest, up to $4,000 a week ? Is that the way it was ? 

Mr. Fogarty. How was that? Explain that over, please. 

The Chairman. That is, did you have an agreement that you would 
keep a minimum amount, or rather a total amount for yourself or 
your company and your partnership, and then the rest of it you 
would send to Mr. Kelly, up to $4,000 a week ? That is, suppose you 
made $6,000, would you send him $4,000? 

Well, I don't want you to refuse to answer it if you don't under- 
stand it. Let's see if I can make it clear. 

With some of the Continental people the agreement was that they 
would keep a certain amount, say a thousand dollars a week, and 
send the rest of it to Continental. 

Mr. Fogarty. Oh, no, no, no. This is my business. This is my 
own business. 

The Chairman. Mr. Kelly and the Continental had no interest in 
your business? 

Mr. Fogarty. Not one penny. 

The Chairman. And was this arrangement ever changed with 
Continental ? Did — it carried right on through that way all along ? 
I mean up to the present time ? 

Mr. Fogarty. That is right. 

The Chairman. Did they ever send people down to try to help 
you build up the business or see what the trouble was ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You just run it as your own ? 

Mr. Fogarty. That is right. 

The Chairman. All right. Do you have any questions ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

Did they ever send any inspectors down to determine the extent 
of the business you were doing ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No. 

Mr. Rice. Austin O'Malley ever come down ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. John Scanlon? Do you know John Scanlon? Do you 
know Austin O'Malley? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know John Scanlon ? 

Mr. Fogarty. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Are you positive about that ? 

Mr. Fogarty. Positive. 

Mr. Rice. What is the amount you pay weekly now to Continental? 

Mr. Fogarty. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know what you are paying now ? 

Mr. Fogarty. I refuse to answer that question. 

Mr. Coleman. If you don't know say you don't know. 



358 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. FoGARTY. I don't know, and I refuse to answer it. 

Mr. Rice. It wonld appear he has waived his privilege in indicating 
he does do it. He says he doesn't know. He is not refusing; he just 
doesn't know. 

You take tlie position you don't know what you are paying for 
Continental per week? 

Mr. FoGAKTY. I do. 

Mr. Rice. And that is your business? 

Mr. FoGARTY. That is my business. 

Mr. Rice. What is the closest you can come ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. Can you come within $5,000 ? 

Mr. FoGz\RTY. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. You don't know. 

Mr. FoGARTT. That is right. I refuse to answer it. 

Mr. Rice. What was the last payment that you made. 

Mr. FoGARTY. I can't remember. 

Mr. Coleman. Can I ask him a question ? 

Mr. FoGARTY. Yes. 

Mr. Coleman. Have you been ill lately? 

Mr. Fog ARTY. Yes. 

Mr. Coleman. Has your son been running some of your business? 

Mr. Fog ARTY. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Coleman. All right. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

The Chairman. You remain under subpena, Mr. Fogarty. In case 
we want you we will notify you or your lawyer . 

Mr. Fogarty. Okay, sir. 

(Witness excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF BEAUKEGAED MILLER, TOWN MARSHAL. GRETNA, 
LA., ACCOMPANIED BY ROBERT WEINSTEIN, ATTORNEY, NEW 
ORLEANS, LA. 

The Chairman. Mr. Miller, do you solemnly swear the testimony 
you give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Miller. I do. 

Mr. Weinstein. Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Weinstein. 

Mr. Weinsi-ein. I understand you would like to ask Mr. Beaure- 
gard Miller, town marshal of Gretna, Jefferson Parish, State of 
Louisiana, a question as to why he permits gambling to go in that 
parish? 

The Chairman. That is the main thing we want to ask him about. 

Mr. Weinstein. I thought that was the 

The Chairman. Oh, well; we will ask him about what we want to, 
but that is the main thing we want to know — is why he permits it to 
go on and what he has done about it. 

Mr. Weinstein. All right, sir; if that is it. 

The Chairman. I don't say that is the only thing; I say that is the 
main tiling we want to ask about, Mr. Weinstein. 

Mr. Weinstein. I will take it on that basis — that it's the main thing, 
and I'll reserve other rights, if it comes to that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 359 

The Chairman. All ri^jht. 

Mr. Weinsteix. I now object to Mr. Miller testifying because there 
is no quorum of the committee present, and this objection I would like 
to be noted in the record as to any question which will be asked of 
Mr. Miller throughout tlie proceeding. 

The Chaikivian. Well, we will note your objection. Your objec- 
tion is overruled. 

Mr. Weinsteix. You will also note the objection that Mr. Miller is 
appearing here today, not as a voluntary witness but appearing under 
the compulsion of a subpena issued by this committee, and that this 
objection be noted to every question that is asked during the course 
of this hearing. 

The Chairmax. All right. We will understand that objection is 
made to every question. 

Mr. Weinsteix-^. We also would like to object to any question being 
asked and that this objection be considered as applying to each ques- 
tion asked by tliis honorable committee. That the questions of neces- 
sity will pertain to matters of local interest, having nothing to do 
with interstate commerce, and therefore outside the purview of the 
resolution under which this committee is now functioning. 

The Chair:max. We will note that objection to every question also. 

Mr. AVeixsteix. And the final objection is that any question which 
will be asked of him will be in violation of his constitutional rights; 
that is, the fourth and fifth amendments of the Constitution and the 
fourteenth. That is, the United States Constitution and the Louisiana 
Constitution, and also that any question asked would be for the pur- 
pose of degrading and embarrassing the witness, and that we would 
ask that these objections be applicable to each particular question 
asked. 

The Chairmax'. All right. They will be noted. Those objections 
will be noted. You have got a pi'etty good list of objections there, 
I believe, Mr. Weinstein. 

Mr. Weixsteix\ Thank you, sir. 

The Chairmax. Now, JSIr. Miller, when did you get to be the town 
marshal of Gretna ? 

Mr. Miller. 1925. 

The Chairman. Yon have been the town marshal ever since ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairmax^. Is Gretna the town in Jefferson Parish where Club 
Forrest and Beverly Country Club and the Billionaire Club and the 
W'ire service of the Daily Sports News is located? 

Mr. Miller. The town of Gretna is incorporated. 

The Chairmax^. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Miller. In the parish of Jefferson I don't have any jurisdic- 
tion in it. That comes under the sheriff. We have just three wards 
over there. It is a small town. 

The Chairmax'. Which of the clubs are in the town of Gretna ? 

Mr. Miller. The Bank Club, the Billionaire Club, the Clover Club, 
New Garden Club, Millionaire Cafe, and the Blue Light Inn. 

The Chairmax'. So Forrest and Beverly are not in the town of 
Gretna ? 

Mr. Miller. That is right. 

The Chairman. Now, the Daily Sports News is in Gretna, is it, 
Mr. Fogarty's wire service ? 



360 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Miller. I understand it is ; yes. 

The Chairman. Now, these clubs, they have been there; why do 
you let them operate ? What is the situation about it ? 

Mr. Weinstein. Let me interrupt one second, Mr. Chairman. I 
don't want to be technical. I was making those objections, and I 
know you will consider that the witness was making them because he 
is supposed to make them. 

The Chairman. That is right. We consider that he makes them 
personally. 

Mr. Weinstein. All right, sir. 

Mr. Miller. Well, the people over there want it. It was there when 
I went there, and there is nobody opposed to it, and when it is closed 
down they are all worring about opening it up, and therefore if I 
was to close it up I really believe that I would be defeated. 

The Chairman. You mean j^ou don't think you would get reelected 
if you closed them up ? 

Mr. Miller. That is right. 

The Chairman. Well, that is a fair answer. That is better than 
the sheriff did this morning. 

Mr. ]\IiLLER. Thank you, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. Have you tried closing them up to see how the 
people feel about it, sir? 

Mr. ]Mill: r. I have never closed them since I have been in office, 
but they have been closed lots of times. 

Tlie Cha RMAN. You mean when they closed themselves ? 

Mr. Miller. Through high officials, and sometimes different things 
would come up that they would close down. Newspapers or some- 
thing would put some heat on them and they would close up. Maybe 
for some other political reasons sometimes they would close up. 

The Chairman. And then you say the people get to worrying 
about wanting them opened up ? 

Mr. Millie That is right. Plenty of people working in them and 
making a living out of it. Without the gambling it would be a dead 
town. 

The Chairman. You mean that is one of the principal things of 
livelihood out there? 

Mr. ? Tiller. That is right, sir. 

The Ch irman. How large a town is Gretna? 

Mr. IMiiLER. It is about 14,000 population. 

The Chairman. What is the main business there? 

Mr. Mn.LER. "We have quite a few. The main business is the gam- 
bling biisine s 

Tlie Chv RMAN. And I was just looking at these wire-service drops. 
Yo' havo got a lot of places there with wire service, I believe, horse 
parlorp ? 

Mr. MiiLER. 1 think I have covered it all. You have it all. 

The CiiATR:\r^N. How many horse parlors with wire services do you 
iiU'iGfine there are''' 

M^'. Ml' LVR J'^st tl^e nmount I mentioned. I think it is about six. 

The Chairman. All of these clubs, and then some other places ? 

}\-" ?hLLrR. To b-^ frank with you, I think there is — let's see. 
Thorp's one. two, three — I think there are four books altogether. All 
t^iu'll books, though. 

The Chairman. Do you own an interest in any of these clubs? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 361 

]\Ir. M11J.EK. No, sir. 

The Chairman. And you just feel the people want it and you don't 
do anything about it ? 

Mr. Miller. That is right, sir. 

The Chairman. If you felt the people didn't want it you would 
close them up, I take it ? 

Mr. Miller. If enough people insisted on me closing it and de- 
manded it, I would. 

The Chairman. Well, do you have any connection with them insofar 
as getting people located, getting them jobs, things of that sort? 

Mr. Miller. To be frank with you, very seldom I ever interceded 
for anyone to go to work in a gambling house. All the people that 
run it is my friends, and ] naturally they put my friends in there, so 
we don't have any trouble getting them in. 

The Chairman. Well, it is at least good to get a frank answer once 
in a while, I will say, Mr. Miller. So you don't liave to intercede; 
they just get in anyway? 

Mr. Miller. A lot of them get in on their own; a lot get in through 
their relationship, and so on. 

The Chairman. 117 Huey P. Long Avenue — what is that? Is that 
the Daily Sports News ? That is a building there, is it not? 

Mr. ISliLLER. 117 Huey P. Long Avenue? I think that is the Bil- 
lionaire Club. 

The Chairman. Isn't there a building there, from 115 to 123 — the 
Billionaire Club there? 

Mr. IMiLLER. Billionaire Club, 117. 

The Chairman. Where is Fogarty's place with respect to the Bil- 
lionaire Club ? 

Mr. jNIiller. Fogarty's, I think, is above the Bank Club. 

The Chairman. Right over the Bank Club? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. That is, I guess, in the next block. 

The Chairman. Both of those are gambling clubs, are they not? 

IMr. JNIiller. That's right. 

The Chairman. Carlos ISIarcello — where is his place? 

Mr. JNIiller. Carlos Marcello's place? 

The Chairman. Yes. Is that 117 Huey P. Long Avenue ? 

Mr. Miller. You mean his business place, Jefferson Music Shop? 

The Chair:\ian. Yes. 

Mr. JNIiller. No. That is down further. It is in the three hundred 
and something, I think. In fact, it is on Third and Fourth Street. 
Just what the number is offhand I don't know. 

The Chairman. Do you own any race horses? 

Mr. Miller. Do I own any race horses ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. I have a little partnership in one. We raised it. 

The Chair3Ian. Is it profitable? 

Mr. Miller. What is that, sir? 

The Chairman. Do you make any money out of it? 

JNIr. JNIiller. No, sir.' 

The Chairman. Do you own a new Cadillac? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Old Cadillac? 

Mr. JNIiller. No. sir. 

The Chairman. What kind of Cadillac? 



362 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Miller. I don't have any Cadillac. 

The Chairman. Didn't yon have a Cadillac awhile back ? 

Mr. Miller. No; never did. 

The Chairman. What kind of car do you have? 

Mr. Miller. Eight now? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. I have a Bnick. 

The Chairman. So that you are just waiting there to let the people 
tell you what to do, and that is what you think you ought to do? 

Mr. Miller. I don't think they are ever going to tiy to do it, 
because it has been going on so long. In fact, I think gambling went 
on when my daddy was an officer of the law over there. It's been yeai"S 
and years ago. 

The Chairman. Haven't you been on the payroll of Club Foi'est? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You never have been ? 

Mr. ISIiLLER. No sir. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever receive any money from Club Forest or any 
individual connected with it? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

Mr. liiCE. Do you know who they are ? 

Mr. Miller. Sir ? 

Mr. Rice. Do you know who runs Club Forest? 

Mr. Miller. I read the newspapers. 

The Chairman. Well, the Club Forest, I think in fairness we should 
say, isn't in your town. 

Mr. Miller. I would have no reason to know. 

Mr. Weinstein. I appreciate your sense of fairness, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. What is that? 

Mr. Weinstein. I say I appreciate your stopping that question 
without me objecting to it. 

The Chairman. I wasn't stopping it exactly. I was just trying to 
help him along. 

Mr. Weinstein. Thank you, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, your brother-in-law has an interest in the 
Bank Club ; hasn't he ? 

Mr. Miller. He did at one time but he don't have it at the present 
time. 

The Chairman. Do you have a son-in-law at the Billionaire Club? 

Mr. ]\IiLLER. Son-in-law ? No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do 3^ou have a relative at the Billionaire Club ? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

I am saying "No." There might be someone in there that might 
be related to me. I don't know. 

The Chairman. I mean any close relative? 

Mr. Miller. I don't think so. 

The Chairman. Raymond C. Kelsata. He is vour brother-in-law? 

Mr. Miller. That is right. 

The Chairman. What is he doing now ? 

Mr. MiiLER. At the present time he is not doing anything. He did 
have an interest in the Bank Club. 

The Chairman. All right. Any other questions ? 

Mr. RiOE. Yes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 363 

I notice you have a place on your Hn<»'er there where a part of it 
is sunburned and part of it is not. 

Mr. I^IiLLER. What ( 

Mr. Weinstein. Come up. Let's show the gentleman your hands 
and o-et it straight. 

(Mr. Miller came forward and displayed his hands and fingers.) 

Mr. Rice. Aren't you in the habit of wearing rings? 

Mr. Miller. Your informers inform you wrong. I never wear 
rings. 

Mr. Rice. You never wear rings? 

Mr. Miller. No. 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

The Chairman. Sit down. 

Mr. Rice. Sit down. 

Mr. Weinstein. You know, ]\Ir. Chairman, I sorry that question 
was asked, because I believe I know the source of the information, 
and it is so wrong, and — but I'll pass it. Let's go on. 

The Chairman. All right. 

]Mr. Klein. Thank you. 

Mr. Rice. Xow, sir; do you own any race horses? 

The CHAIR3IAN. I asked that. 

Mr. Miller. I have answered that question already. 

Mr. Rice. What was your answer? 

Mr. Miller. I said I own a part of one. 

The Ciiair:\ian. Do you mean a part of a stable or part of a horse? 

Mr. Miller. One horse [laughter] and not a fast one either. 

Mr. Rice. Which part of the horse do you own ? 

Mr. Miller. It is a partnership. Put it that way. 

The Chairman. No; I mean, seriously. How do you get into — Do 
you own a third interest, or a half interest ? 

Mr. Miller. To be frank with you, we raised a little horse from a 
colt, and we all fell in love with it, so when we entered the horse at 
the race track we put it in all of our names. 

The Chairman. All your family's? 

Mr, Miller. No ; it's friends of mine. 

The Chairman. He is not a very good running horse ? 

Mr. Miller. Not so hot. I wish it were. 

The Chairman. How old are you now, Mr. Miller ? 

Mr. Miller. Fifty-one. 

The Chairman. All right. Well, that's all. 

Mr. Miller. Thank you, sir. 

Mr. Weinstein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

(Witness excused.) 

The Chairman. Well, the time is getting very, very late. We have 
had a number of witnesses subpenaed here who I guess we are not 
going to get to hear unless some of them particularly want to be heard, 

Mr. Marshal, did you check with any witnesses to see whether they 
wanted to be heard? 

Mr. Rice. AVe have a report we have no indications that any wit- 
nesses want to volunteer to be heard. 

The Chairman. Well, the witnesses have all been invited in the 
hearing room. If any of you want to be heard, if your name has 
been mentioned, if you want to make any explanation about it, I would 

68958 — 51 — pt. 8 24 



364 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

like to give you an opportunity. Otherwise, I am not going to call 
you at this time. 

(No response.) 

Mr. KiCE. We have a letter here from Mayor Morrison. He asked 
that it be included in the record. 

The Chairman. Well, this seems to be a letter. [Keading :] 

Department of Police, Interoffice Correspondence 

January 17, 1951. 
To : Mayor Morrison. 
From : Mr. Scheuring. 
Subject : Daily Sports News. 

Answering your memorandum of recent date, Sgt. Earl Weiser made a survey 
of 426 Camp Street and learned that the activities being conducted there are 
the receiving, by Western Union wire, horse information and typewritten by a 
lady employee for the purpose of printing and distributing race paraphernalia 
or matter. 

With reference to 506-7 Baiter Building, these offices are leased by the Baiter 
Building to John J. Fogarty, who conducts his publishing business through 
these offices. 

No other activities could be found at the above-mentioned locations. 
Respectfully, 

Joseph L. Scheuring, 
Superintendent of Police. 

All right. That will be put in the record. 

(The letter was made a part of the record and is on file with the 
committee. ) 

The Chairman. Well, I have asked the witnesses who have been 
subpenaed; I am not going to call any more witnesses we have sub- 
penaed tonight, but we may call some witnesses who have been sub- 
penaed to come to other places to testify, although that is not prob- 
able, but it is possible. I do want to give any witnesses a chance to 
say anything if their names have been used here ; or anyone else who 
has been talked about or disparaged or feel that they have been im- 
properly represented in this hearing. 

We had an experience in Tampa. I wasn't there, but the Senator 
holding the hearing is a very fair man, and he certainly would give 
anybody a chance to be heard if they wanted to be heard, whose name 
had been used or who had been subpenaed; and the next day after 
he had left, why, several witnesses felt that they had not been treated 
right ; that they had not been given a chance to testify. So I don't 
want that to happen here. 

(No response.) 

CLOSING STATEMENT 

The Chairman. Well, with that, then, this completes our hearing. 

I want to thank the good people of New Orleans and the many people 
we have seen here for their warm hospitality. I want to again thank 
Judge Wright for his courtesy in the use of this courtroom; United 
States Attorney McKay for giving us quarters and other lielp; and 
Mr. Mitchell who has been with us during the hearings; Mr. Knop, 
the marshal, and all of his assistants have not only helped us with 
all of our subpenas but they have been very splendid in arranging for 
these hearings, and in staying with us through long hours at night ; 
Mr. Graff, the custodian of the building; Thomas McGuire and his 
people, the agent in charge of the Bureau of Narcotics; Mrs. Hoff- 
man, the young lad}- here, has been working until late hours at night, 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 365 

as has Mrs. Livesay, Mrs. Pace, and Mrs. Clay. We are very grateful 
to them, and also ^Ir. Pepper, of the secret service. I appreciate the 
assistance that they have given us, and the welcome that the mayor 
of the city of New Orleans has given us. Also the Bureau of Internal 
Revenue and many other agencies and people who have been of so 
much assistance. 

I want to take this occasion to thank the members of our staff and 
counsel, Mr. Downey Rice, who has under very difficult circumstances 
and long hours had the principal part in this examination. He has 
done an awfully good job, I think, as has the other member of the 
staff, Mr. Klein, the associate counsel. Some of you newspapermen 
may not have known that Mr. Kiley was down here in July and made 
the preliminary investigation, and a very splendid one ; Ralph Mills 
and George Martin; and Lieutenant Butler, of the Dallas Police 
Department, who have been assisting us ; also Inspector Frank Ahearn 
and Tom Cahill, of the San Francisco homicide squad and vice squad 
who have been here. 

I feel that our investigation here, from the viewpoint of fitting 
the links into the interstate picture has been very important and 
useful. We have found in this section of New Orleans and in southern 
Mississippi necessary links insofar as the wire services are concerned ; 
gambling and other kinds of criminal operations participated in 
and owned in part by people in other sections of the country; other 
kinds of crime associated with gambling, and other types of illegal 
activity, and I think we have had a very good picture of the effect 
upon law enforcement in a particular section where you have various 
types of criminal activity. The operations in this section are very 
significant — large — and they have interstate connections both as to 
what is being done and also the people involved. 

We, of necessity, cannot and should not go into purely local matters, 
although it is inevitable sometimes to run into local matters in tryino: 
to reach some result. We had one local situation, although it was 
involved, of course, with interstate matters, with Mr. Grosch, and then 
also the contrary testimony as shown by the record and by his former 
wife who was brought in. That is, as to what will be done in that 
matter, a matter for the local courts and the United States attorney 
and the prosecuting officers. 

It is my opinion that after hearing the witnesses, Mrs. Grosch was 
definitely telling the truth, from her demeanor on the witness stand ; 
and, of course, her testimony was corroborated by certain matters 
of record. Other matters to be brought out are of course for people 
here to look after. 

I think it should be said, also, that we have had more refusals to 
answer in New Orleans than we have had in all our other hearings, 
I think, put together. We have had some very arrogant and most 
important criminals like Carlos Marcello who have appeared here; 
but the most distressing thing is that a sheriff or law-enforcement 
officer, who is supposed to enforce the law, have claimed privilege 
against incriminating tliemselves, even though they are the law- 
enforcement officers, even to a greater extent than some of the crim- 
inals we have had before use. 

That is a most distressing condition and it is difficult to see how it 
can continue. That, again though, is a matter for the local people 
and not for us. We are only interested in the political and the en- 



366 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

f orcement result growing out of interstate crime wliich we have shown 
here. 

The record will be studied very closely on the contempt matters: 
the witnesses who have refused to answer. We will secure opinion of 
counsel as to whether any of them had a right, under the objections 
they made, to refuse to answer certain questions, and also the record 
will be studied as to perjury; but the United States district attorney 
can act on matters of perjury without any citation or any recom- 
mendation from the Senate; and he will be furnished with a cop^ of 
this record. 

I do want to say, very definitely, that Carlos Marcello and certain 
others who refused to testify, that insofar as I am concerned I will 
recommend to the whole committee that they be cited for contempt. 
I have gone over with the staff the testimony of Phil Kastel, who gave 
the committee substantial information, and 1 think also refused — and 
contemptuously refused — to answer certain questions that I cannot 
see how he could legitimately claim his privilege upon ; so that shall 
also be my recommendation in his case. His case, I must say, is by no 
means as clear as some of the others. 

I am not going to mention all of the ones. I think Mr. Fogarty 
had no right to refuse to answer certain questions. I shall make a 
recommendation as to him. 

We have proven here that out-of-the-State people definitely own 
and receive money from and are employed by and are a part of a 
substantial gambling operation which is in existence at the present 
time, to wit and for example, Frank Costello, of New York City. 
It is not my province to urge or to insist on the local people what 
they are going to do about it, but certainly there should be some 
action taken, it seems to me, in this matter, and in others, which 
are operating on a large scale and notoriously and commercially with 
people involved, or somebody ought to find out why it is not being 
taken. 

Some efforts are being made toward better law enforcement in this 
section. Some good people and some officials are making an effort. I 
know that from the people I have talked with those efforts are 
appreciated but I must say that in this section generally there is a 
great deal to be done and a long way to go before decent law en- 
foi'cement can be accomplished. 

The next scheduled hearing for the committee will be in Detroit, 
beginning on February 8. Certain members of our staff will remain 
here for a few days to digest the certain records we have here for our 
reports, to follow through on certain other things that have come to 
our attention, and also to receive any suggestions from anyone who 
feels they have some idea that may be of help to the committee. 

Mr. Eice, I think, will be here a few days, and Mr. Mills, and Mr. 
Butler 

Mr. Rice. Yes. At 327 New Federal Building. 

The Chairman. At 327 in the New Federal Building. I want to 
thank you gentlemen of the press for staying with us so late at night, 
and for the consideration you have given us, and also the radio which 
has carried so much of the broadcast of the hearings and has created 
so much of the public interest in it; and the television. This is the 
first time our hearings have been televised, and I didn't know this 
3^oung fellow was over here for quite a while. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 367 

Mr. Coleman. Senator. 

The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Coleman. 

Mr. Coleman. I know how fair-minded yon have been here today, 
and I noticed that yon have stated that you would recounnend a 
contempt citation against Mr. Fogarty, and I was wondering whether 
you would permit me, as his counsel, to submit a brief on the law to 
you? 

The Chairman, Yes, indeed. 

Mr. Coleman. And keep your mind open on that question until 
that is done. I believe we can convince you that he was perfectly 
within his rights in not answering those questions, bearing in mind 
that he has an indictment for the same thing hanging over his head 
now ; and under the Federal statute could have the same one. 

I would like to have an opportunity to submit that, if you would tell 
me how long, or within what time. 

The Chairman. All right. If within 1 week you will submit a 
brief. 

Mr. Coleman, One week. T will send the brief where ? 

The Chairman. You can send it to me at the Senate Office Building 
in AYashington, I will study it and see that counsel does. 

I may say the main difficulty we have had with Mr. Fogarty is in 
connection with the Trans-America Wire Service. That is one of 
the important things we wanted to question him about, and he com- 
pletely fell down on us insofar as the Trans-America was concerned. 
That company, of course, has gone out of business. It is not in exist- 
ence. We have been very much interested in knowing just what his 
situation with Trans-America was. You might talk with him about 
it sometime. 

Mr. Coleman, Yes. I will submit the brief on the law to you within 
a week. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. I will be glad to receive briefs from any 
of you attorneys representing clients on this question. 

Well, thank you very much for your hospitality; and I hope the 
next time we come to New Orleans it will be under more pleasant 
circumstances, 

(Wliereupon, at 11 : 46 p; m., the hearing was adjourned.) 



INYESTIGATION OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE 

COMMERCE 



WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7, 1951 

United States Senate, 
Special Committee To Investigate 
Organized Crime tn Interstate Commerce, 

Washington, D. G. 

Tlie committee met, pursuant to call of tlie Chairman, at 10 a, m., 
in room 457, Senate Office Building, Senator Estes Kefauver (chair- 
man) presiding. 

Present : Senators Kefauver, Hunt, Tobey, and Welker. 

Also present : Downey Rice, associate counsel ; E. Ernest Goldstein, 
assistant counsel. 

George Martin and Henry P. Kiley, investigators. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

This is a continuation of the committee hearings held recently in 
New Orleans. 

Let the record show that Senators Hunt and Tobey are present. 

Before we start the proceedings, let me present the members of our 
staff: George Martin, who has been in Tampa, and New Orleans, 
Mr. Ernest Goldstein, and also Mr. Kiley, who has been a very faithful 
member of our staff but has left us to go with the International Claims 
Commission. We will miss very greatly his work in New Orleans and 
Tampa and Chicago and other places, work which has been very out- 
standing, and I might mention in Annapolis where we made a pre- 
liminary investigation. 

Mr. Rice, our associate counsel, will handle this. He handled the 
hearings in Tampa and New Orleans. 

After the subcommittee came back from the hearing in New Orleans, 
a telegram was received from Sheriff Clancy which will.be made a 
part of the record at this point, stating in substance that he wanted to 
be heard further before the committee and in connection with the 
hearing. 

(The telegram above referred to was identified as Exhibit No. 27, and 
is on file with the committee.) 

The Chairman. The chairman after taking the matter up with 
other members of the committee, and pursuant to our general custom 
and practice, directed Sheriff Clancy to appear today and we also 
stated the same opportunity would i3e given to any other witnesses 
prior to the time the contempt petitions were actually filed in the 
Senate, which we contemplate will be done either tomorrow or the 
next day. No other witnesses have been heard from, except Sheriff 
Clancy. 

We appreciate the sheriff's attitude in wanting to give the committee 
the information it needs. It is not our purpose in conducting this 

369 



370 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

committee to act as a proseciitinfj committee. We are not interested 
in trying to put people in jail. We are interested in trying to find out 
the facts and get the information upon which to base our work. 
Sheriff Clancy, will you come around. 

FURTHEE TESTIMONY OF FRANK J. CLANCY, SHERIFF, JEFFERSON 
PARISH, GRETNA, LA. 

The Chairman. You have already been sworn, I believe? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

The Chairman. You can have a seat, sir. 

Mr. Clancy. Senator, could I make this statement? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir; sit down, and we will let you make any 
preliminary statement you wish. 

Sheriff Clancy, this meeting is held at your request for an oppor- 
tunity to make a further statement, and the connnittee is glad to give 
you this opportunity. 

Mr. Clancy. I was the one that sent the telegram. 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Clancy. I believe I tried to explain that. 

Senator Tobey. Will you speak louder, please? 

Mr. Clancy. I sent the telegram, and the reasons that I sent it was 
because 

The Chairman. Tlie acoustics are pretty bad in this room. Will 
you please talk louder? 

Mr. Clancy. Can you hear me now, Senator ? 

The Chairman. I think we can hear you. 

Mr. Clancy. I was the one that sent the telegram, and I sent it be- 
cause I thought that incrimination was more local than it was involved 
in the Federal angle of it, and inasmuch as we have so much publicity 
in Jefferson about this, I think that something ought to be said in all 
fairness to Jefferson Parish. 

Jefferson Parish 

The Chairman. We will be glad to have you make a full statement, 
and then i\Ir. Kice will ask you some questions, and you just take your 
time. Go right ahead. 

Mr. Clancy. That was about all. I just wanted to explain about 
Jefferson Parish, how it had grown down there, and what we had to 
do in the piist in order to keep the growth there. It has been my duty 
as sheriff, not that the law devolves upon the sheriff, but for some 
reason or other, by custom it is the sheriff's duty down there in that 
parish to enact all of the laws and draw all of the laws that will give 
tiie people the facilities that they need down there. 

We have in the past put in possibly every modern facility that is 
known to mankind in that parish. The parish has grown in the past 
10 years over 100 percent in its population. 

I am merely making this statement. Senators, to show that Jefferson 
is not as bad as sometimes the press would paint it to be. That is 
merely the purpose of this statement. 

Senator Torfa'. Are you up here for the prime purpose of defending 
Jefferson Parish and making it appear virtuous and show its economic 
growth, or to tell us about your income and what you have been doing 
down there as sheriff and what you have not been doing? 



ORGANIZED CRIME EST INTERSTATE COMMERCE 371 

• 

Mr. Clancy. Well, Senator, I believe I said this, in fairness to Jef- 
fei"Son Parish. So, insofar as myself, I will have to go along and 
try to defend myself when the questions are asked of me. Senator. 
I would not want to say here that Jefferson is one of the finest places 
in the world, or it is free from crime, or anythiuir like that. 

The Chairman. Sheriff Clancy, we understood from your telegram 
that in the examination in Xew Orleans — I have the record here — 
after a feAv jjreliminary questions you declined to answer practically 
every question of every kind. AVe undei-stood from your telegram that 
you wanted to come up and tell us about it and to attempt to relieve 
yourself, or purge yourself of contempt of this committee and of the 
Senate. 

Mr. Clancy. That is true. Senator. 

The Chairman. And we are glad to give you that opportunity, but, 
of course, I think I should tell you that after your testimony, then 
the connnittee will take another look at the matter to see whether that 
has been done or not. You understand there is not any commitment 
that what you testify will change the opinion of the committee, but 
that will have to be judged by what you have to say. 

Mr. Clancy. I certainly' understand that. Senator. 

The Chairman. In the beginning, do you want to make any general 
statement about the conditions in the State or the conditions there in 
Jefferson Parish with reference to these places that have 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, Senator. 

The Chairman. Wire services and interstate connections, and your 
relations with them and how they happen to be run, and who you 
dealt with, and all of the matters that you know we are interested in ? 
If you want to make a general statement, you may do so now, and then 
we will ask you questions afterward. 

Mr. Clancy. Thank you. Senator. 

Insofar as gambling is concerned in Jefferson Parish, that has been 
going on there for hundreds of years. I presume that a man that 
would run for office down there, 'up until possibly the present time, 
unless he was for it, he could not have been elected. So many people 
worked in these places, up to better than a thousand people. Of 
those, there were a lot of them were underprivileged and old people 
who could not get work any place else. And for that reason gambling 
had been condoned down there, but today it is getting to a propo- 
sition where work is more plentiful and you do not have to have those 
people to give people work. 

Senator Tubey. When you took an oath of office as sheriff, you swore 
to uphold the law, did you not ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

Senator Tobey. And gambling is not legal, is it, there? 

Mr. CLi^.NCY. Not in Louisiana. 

Senator Tobey. Therefore, have you upheld the laws against 
gambling ? 

Mr. Clancy. I cannot say that I did. 

Senator Tobey'. What is that? 

Mr. Clancy. I cannot say that I did. Senator. 

Senator Tobey. Then you have broken your oath of office ; is that 
correct ? 



372 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

• 

Mr. Clancy. That is right, Senator. I broke it for the sake of those 
old and unfortunate men who could not get employment any other 
place. 

Senator Tobey, That is the reason you did it, pity for them ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

Senator Tobey. Or to be elected to office ? 

Mr. Clancy. I imagine, Senator, I'd got along a whole lot better 
without being sheriff. 

Senator Tobey. That is not the question. Were you motivated by 
interest in these old men that needed jobs or interested in getting one, 
yourself, namely, elected sheriff ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right, sir. 

Senator Tobey. The latter part is true ? 

Mr. Clancy. That part is true, and I have been elected since 1928. 

The Chairman. So that we all understand, Jefferson Parish is im- 
mediately adjoining Orleans Parish? 

Mr. Clancy. That is correct. As a matter of fact, Orleans sort of 
divides Jefferson Parish. We are on both sides of Orleans. 

The Chairman. Also, for the record, Gretna is the parish city, is it 
not^ 

Mr. Clancy. Gretna is the parish city. 

The Chairman. How large a town is Gretna ? 

Mr. Clancy. I imagine Gretna must be a town of ten or twelve 
thousand. 

The Chairan. Ford Miller is the town marshal of Gretna? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

The Chairman. What other good-sized towns are there in that 
parish ? 

Mr. Clancy. You have four incorporated. You have Gretna, 
Westwego, you have Harahan, and you have Kenner. 

The Chairman. Westwego? 

Mr. Clancy. And Kenner. 

The Chairman. I did not understand that last one. 

Mr. Clancy. Kenner — K-e-n-n-e-r. 

The Chairman. What was the other one ? There was Gretna, West- 
wego, Kenner, and what other ? 

Mr. Clancy. Harahan — H-a-r-a-h-a-n. 

The Chairman. According to the papers, sheriff, some other places 
down there, you told them they would have to stay closed — you closed 
them. Do you want to have anything to say about that? 

Mr. Clancy. That is correct. 

The Chairman. Tell us about it. 

Mr. Clancy, I believe this committee has shown to me that there 
is more gambling down there than I really knew. 

I thought it was time now that some of these places could be con- 
verted into some other use. Subdivisions could be built there, and the 
people who had been working there can today find employment in 
defense plants. 

The (jHAiRMAN. What places have closed up there, sheriff"? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, all of the places. Senator, that is in the unin- 
corporated area. In the incorporated areas I have told you they have 
a chief of police in each one of them, and it has been the duty of the 
chief of police to take care of the policing of his area. 



r 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 373 

The Chairman. Club Foray has been closed? 

Mr. Clancy. It has been closed. 

The Chairman. And what is Mr. Kastel's place ? 

Mr. Clancy. Beverly. That is closed. 

The Chairman. Is that closed? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

The Chairman. This Billionaire Club; is that closed? 

Mr. Clancy. I do not know. That is in the city of Gretna. 

The Chairman. You have not undertaken to close any places- 



I 



Mr. Clancy. I have not undertaken to close any place in the incor- 
porated areas, Senator. 

The Chairman. Do you have jurisdiction over the incorporated 
areas ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, we have always followed, let those chiefs of 
police run their own municipalities. I imagine if a test of law would 
come. Senator, that I could possibly go in there. I do not know 
whether I have the right or not, but it would have to be tested by law. 

Senator Tobey. You have concurrent jurisdiction in Gretna, have 
you not ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes ; I think I have. 

Senator Tobey. You let them run in Gretna, but not otherwise ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. 

Senator Tobey. Why ? 

Mr. Clancy. Because the chief of police, Senator, there, that is 
his duty. 

Senator Tobey. It is not your duty — what does the law say? 

Mr. Clancy. Tlie law says that I should enforce it all over. 

Senator Tobey. You do not do it ? 

Mr. Clancy. I did not do it there, because it is the chief of police, 
his duty. 

Senator Tobey. You swore to uphold the law? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. 

Senator Tobey. You have not done it ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. 

Senator Tobey. And you are a lawyer yourself, are you not? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

Senator Tobey. You are the sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Senator Tobey. And you do not obey the law ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well — ^ 

Senator Tobey. You break your oath of office by not doing it ; is that 
not right? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. Senator. 

The Chairman. All right, Mr. Rice. Is there any other statement 
that you want to make first, Sheriff ? 

Mr. Clancy. None that I can think of, Senator. 

Mr. Rice. You received a subpena ; did you not ? 

Mr. Clancy. I did. 

Mr. Rice. Directing you to bring certain records with you? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. I believe you brought along a sheet showing certain stocks 
in corporations ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 



374 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. I notice that the subpeiia directs yon to bring records 
rehxting to your assets or intei-est in property, either i-eal or personal 
property; have you brought anything additional along? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; 1 did not. 

Mr. Rice. What is your position 

The Chairman. Before you get on with your examination, the 
sheriff brought up the point about the people working in these places, 
and so forth. I think for the record it ought to be pointed out that 
the same kind of contention was made in Daytona County and Briar 
County and several other places where we have been, but the record 
shows that since the gaming and slot machines and horse parlors have 
been closed that there is more money for the merchants and more 
money for the people and they have better economic conditions, gen- 
erally, which prevail, so that. Sheriff, the committee and I are not 
very much impressed with this proposition that you have to leave some 
places running for the economic welfare of the section. Studies have 
been made out in Illinois of a small county where it was wide open, 
and they had closed down, and the bank deposits rose greatly, the 
merchants have better business. 

Senator Hunt had an experience out in his State when he was gov- 
ernor, which he has told about. The sales-tax collections and taxes 
generally went up very noticeably when every gambling and criminal 
conduct is closed down. 

1 did not mean to interrupt you, Mr. Rice. You may go ahead. 

Mr. Rice. Along that line, I think it would be fair to remark about 
the statement of the mayor of New Orleans that after the slot machines 
and wide-open gambling were chased out of New Orleans that they 
received economic benefits, which were immediately apparent in the 
town right adjacent to that of Sheriff Clancy. 

The Chairman. They still have one-ball machines, I believe, in New 
Orleans. 

Mr. Rice. Going back to the subpena which you received which 
directed you to bring records in addition to the statement of the stock- 
holdings which you have, you say you have not brought any further 
records ? 

Mr. Clancy. Except this thing that I believe you asked me about 
down there, Mr. Rice, about that telephone being listed in my name. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. We will get to that in a moment. 

Mr. Clancy. All right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about records of your real-estate holdings, your real 
property ; have you brought anything on that ? 

Mr. Clancy. I believe I can tell you that. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir, suppose you tell us about that. 

Mr. Clancy. The only real estate that I own is an interest, I believe 
it showed there in that stock of some real-estate concern, squares of 
ground we bought at an auction, and then I have a quitclaim deed to 
a thousand acres of land that I must redeem from the State of 
Louisiana ; in other words, I bought from these people who lost their 
right to redeem it. They lost it, I believe, in the year 1982. And I 
have got to — I assume the taxes on that. By assuming the taxes on 
that I could not have paid the taxes unless I had won a lawsuit. 

Mr. Rice. Yes; we undei'stand about that. Is there any reason 
why you could not bring in a list of property holdings that you have? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 375 

Mr. Clancy. That is the only property I have. And the property 
that I live on, the property 1 inherited from my father. 

Mr. Rice. Is this the only property you have had since 1944? 
Mr. Clancy. I have had since 1944? Well, most of it, the only 
two pieces I have had since 1944 is this that I liave told you about, 
the quitclaim cleed, and that in that real-estate company. 

Mr. Rice. Did you not have a parcel that you deeded to your son-in- 
law ? 

Mr. Clancy. What is that, sir? 

Mr. Rice. Did you not have a parcel that you deeded to your son-in- 
law ? 

Mr. Clancy. A parcel of land ? 
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Clancy. Since 1944? 
Mr. Rice. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Clancy. Not that I know of. I deeded something to my 
daughter at Grand Isle, a house that I had at Grand Isle, a summer 
camp. 

Mr. Rice. When was that, sir? 

Mr. Clancy. That must have been a couple of years ago. 
Mr. Rice. So you did have some property after 1944 in addition to 
what you have just mentioned ? 

Mr. Clancy. I believe I had that before 1944, Senator, I mean, Mr. 
Downey. 

Mr. Rice. What we cannot understand is why you have not 
answered the subpena and brought in with you the list of the property ; 
what is your reason for that: 

Mr. Clancy. I have no reason for it, because I could tell it to you 
right off. Senator. 

Mr. Rice. Is it fair to say then that you just ignored the subpena 

because you feel 

]Mr. Clancy. No, sir. That is not it. I would not say that. I could 
tell you right off, the ])roperty that I own. 

Air. Rice. All right, sir. We will get to that in a minute then. 
How" about your personal property, automobiles and things like tliat ; 
have you brought in a list of that ? 

]\fr. Clancy. No, sir ; but I can tell you about that. 
IVIr. Rice. The same position on that, that you just would like to 
tell us about it, and not answer in response to the subpena ? 

Mr. Clancy. There is nothing — I have got a couple of beat-up 
trucks, as we call them, back at the place we call the ranch, no new 
trucks at all. I have a cattle truck back there. 
Mr. Rice. All right, sir. 

jNIr. Clancy. And the car that I drive is an office car. It is not 
my car. 

Mr. Rice. You indicate you have some stock in a place called Dixie 
Finance Co. ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who is connected in that enterprise, who are the prin- 
cipals in that, who are the officers and directors ? 

Mr. Clancy. I think Mr. Burt Clark 

Mr. Rice. Mr. Burt Clark ? 
Mr. Clancy. And Irvin Pailet. 
Mr. Rice. Yes ? 



376 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Clancy. Those are the ones that I know. I do not know who 
else was in it. 

Mr. Rice. Are they friends of yours ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes ; they are friends of mine. 

Mr. Rice. And how did you happen to become connected in that 
Tenture ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, through my association with the Metairie Bank, 
you see. These were members, they were fellows who owned stock 
in the Metairie Bank, and they formed this finance company, and Mr. 
Burt Clark is the attorney for the finance company, and he asked me 
to go into it. 

Mr. Rice. As the result of that you made an investment in the 
finance company ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Rice. Is that finance company in a position where they loan 
money to operations that might put out slot machines ? 

Mr. Clancy. You are asking me something I could not answer. 1 
am not on the board. And I do not have anything to do with that. 

Mr. Rice. It is possible, though, is it not ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir ; those things are possible. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir; how about the Tassin Bros., what is that? 

Mr. Clancy. That was a wholesale drug concern, a little drug 
concern. 

Mr. Rice. A little drug concern ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. They sold some commodities. I do not 
know exactly what they sold. And this fellow Tassin wanted to 
borrow a thousand dollars from me. 

Mr. Rice. Yes? 

Mr. Clancy. He said he had some stock to sell. I said, "Sell me 
your stock." And I took the stock in that. I do not think that they 
are in existence any more. 

Mr. Rice. Any narcotics handled in that company ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. A drug company that did not handle narcotics? 

Mr. Clancy. Not that one. I am sure they didn't. 

Mr. Rice. Who were the men in that, Sheriff ? 

Mr. Clancy. The only one I knew in there was Tassin. 

Mr. Rice. Now this Long Range Development Co., who were the 
interested people in that with you ? 

Mr. Clancy. Mr. Ferrara. 

Mr. Rice. "Wliat does he do ? 

Mr. Clancy. He works for the drainage board. 

Mr. Rice. Works for the what ? 

Mr. Clancy. The drainage board. 

Mr. Rice. The drainage board ? 

Mr. Clancy. Drainage board, yes, sir. And Mr. McDonald, he is 
an attorney, ]Mr. Beakler, is an attorney, and myself. 

Mr Rice. Is that the land that you bought on the quitclaim? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir; we bought that outright from the State of 
Louisiana, but from the Pontchartrain Levee Board. 

Mr. Rice. You bought that from the levee board ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. It had been formerly sent to the levee board for 
taxes, nonpayment of taxes. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 377 

Mr. Rice. Your siibpena called for you to bring with you copies 
of your Federal income tax returns from 1944 to date. Did you brine 
those? 

Mr. Clancy. I did not bring them over here with me. I have them 
at the hotel. I can get them and file them with you. 

]\rr. Rice. You have those in the hotel? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. You believe that is the proper way to respond to a sub- 
pena by leaving them there ? 

Mr. Clancy. I asked you yesterday, should I bring anything with 
me. 

Mr. Rice. I am sorry, you asked me about the telephone situation. 
I said we covered that. 

Mr. Clancy. I can file them with you. 

Mr. Rice. You can file them? 

Mr. Clancy. I can file them with you, I say. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir. Referring to the record of the testimony 
taken in New Orleans, Sheriff, and I think that probably the best 
procedure will be to ask you some of the same questions that were 
asked there, and I take it from your being here that you would want to 
clarify those questions. The chairman asked you down there this 
question — he said, talking about the situation in your parish : 

I am sure you want to tell about it. The evidence Is that the Club Foray and 
the Old Southport or the New Southport, the Billionaire Club, Bank Club, 
Foray's Club, and O'Dwyer's — 

and at that point your attorney stopped you, and the chairman 
continued. 

There has been some testimony that these clubs operate out in Jefferson Parish 
and the question is, in the first place, do you know that the clubs are out there, 
have you seen them? 

And you refused. 

Mr. Clancy. I know they are there. 

Mr. Rice. You know they are there ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. I know I could point out O'Dwyer's and I could 
point out Club Foray and the Billionaire, but to point out what the 
names of the other places there, they are further over on the river, I 
really would not know. 

Mr. Rice. Those are all in your parish ? 

Mr. Clancy. They are in the parish, though. 

Mr. Rice. You have been sheriff for how many years ? 

Mr. Clancy. Since 1928. 

Mr. Rice. Twenty-eight years. 

Mr. Clancy. I have been since 1928. 

Mr. Rice. You have seen them all, what goes on in those clubs ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, I can tell you that they gamble in there. I 
haven't been in there, but I have been told they gamble in there, and 
that^— 

JNIr. Rice. When you refer to gambling, what type of gambling do 
you mean. Sheriff ? 

Mr. Clancy. I presume, I haven't been in there, but I presume that 
there is dice and roulette and horse betting. 

INIr. Rice. Yes. On the horse bet or the horse book, is it not true 
that they have the wire service ? 



378 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Clancy. Yes ; they must have wire service or they couldn't go. 

Mr. Rice. And that comes from tracks all over the country, does 
it not ? 

Mr. Clancy. I thiiik it does. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of a lay-off bet ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. I have onl}' heard that one time out at the 
race track, laying a bet off. 

Mr. Rice. Lay-oft' bet ? 

Mr. Clancy. I have heard that expression. 

Mr. Rice. What is your understanding of a lay-off bet. Sheriff, 
what do you think it is ? 

Mr. Clancy. I think they get a bet and they don't want it and they 
wire it off' to somebody else to take. 

Mr. Rice. That is right. 

Mr. Clancy. That is my idea of it. 

Mr. Rice. And you say they wire it off ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is it. 

Mr. Rice. Or telephone it off to another gambler ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. That gambler is located in Chicago or Cincinnati or some 
place else, is that not right ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. That goes on right in your parish ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. With respect to the Club Foray, whose place is that ? 

Mr. Clancy. I really couldn't tell you. I know some of the men 
who are supposed to be connected with it. 

Mr. Rice. Who are some of these supposed to be ? 

Mr. Clancy. A1 Shawling, Henry Mills, I believe Frank Mills is 
in it, too. 

Mr. Rice. Yes? 

Mr. Clancy. And I think that Lit off. 

Mr. Rice. Osmon Litoff ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, those are tlie ones that I think are connected with 
it. I have heard talk of being connected with it, 

Mr. Rice. Do you know any of those men ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. I know all of them. 

Mr. Rice. You know all of tliem. 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Is not Litoff one of the men who disappeared when the 
committee came to New Orleans ? 

Mr. Clancy. He was not at the hearing. 

The Chairman. Let the record show that all of these Club Foray 
people, except the bookkeeper, whose name 1 do not at the moment 
remember, disappeared. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know where those men are now. Sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. No, I don't. 

Mr. Rice. Can you give us any help in locating them? 

Mr. Clancy. I might be able to. 

Mr. Rice. We would appreciate it. We would like to talk to them. 

Mr. Clancy. I might be able to. 

Mr. Rice. How about the Old Southport — incidentally, in the Foray 
there is a fellow Carlos Marcello, who is interested in that. 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 379 

Mr. Clancy. In the what ? 

Mr. Rice. In the Foray Chib. 

Mr. Clancy. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know Marcello ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, I know him. 

Mr. Rice. How well do you know him ? 

]\Ir. Clancy, I do not know him very well. I have seen him around 
Gretna there for the past 6 or 7 years. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever talked to him? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir, I have talked to him. 

Mr. Rice. Many times? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. More than once ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. In talking with him, did you learn with what clubs he 
was connected? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. The only club that I think he is connected 
with, this is my impression, he did not tell me, is one of the places out 
toward the river front and Beverly. 

Mr. Rice. What is the one out toward the river front? 

Mr. Clancy. I wouldn't know the name. One name is New South- 
port and one is Old Southport. 

Mr. Rice. One of the two ? 

Mr. Clancy. One of those. 

Mr. Rice. And the Beverly ? 

Mr. Clancy. And the Beverly. 

Mr. Rice. Who else is in the Southport with Marcello? 

Mr. Clancy. That I couldn't tell you, Mr. Downey, I don't know. 
They have changed hands, I understand, quite often, 

Mr. Rice. Who had it before it changed hands ? 

Mr. Clancy. I believe Mr, Kerner — Cargo and Kerner. 

Mr. Rice, Who? 

Mr. Clancy. Cargo and Kerner. 

Mr. Rice. Did you have anything to do with the sale? 

Mr. Clancy. Who? 

Mr. Rice. Did you have anything to do with the sale? 

Mr. Clancy. No. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know why it was sold ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, I don't. 

Mr. Rice. All right, sir, tell us about the Beverly Club. Wha are 
the people interested in the Beverly Club? 

Mr. Clancy. So far as I know, Mr. Kastel and Marcello. 

Mr. Rice. Wliere is Kastel from ? 

Mr. Clancy. He lives in Metairie; where he came from, I under- 
stood he came from New York. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know whether or not he has a criminal record ? 

Mr. Clancy. Sir? 

Mr. Rice. Do you know whether or not he has a criminal record? 

Mr. Clancy. What I have read in the paper. 

Mr. Rice. He came from New York ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And who else was involved in that club? 

Mr. Clancy. Those are the only ones I know of, and the papers 
said that Costello is interested in it. 

68958— 51— pt. 8 25 



380 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. The papers said that, but you don't know ? 

Mr. Clancy. I don't know Costello. 

Mr. Rice. Have you had any conversations with Kastel? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir ; I have talked to Kastel. 

Mr. Rice. And what was that about? 

Mr. Clancy. Told him that he would have to put men to work when 
he opened up there. 

Mr. Rice. You told him he would have to put men to work? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right. Have to close it if the people objected 
to his place. 

Mr. Rice. We would like to hear the story of how the Beverly, which 
was established in 1945, got the O. K. to start up, and we are sure you 
know the story. Sheriff; we would like to have it in your own words. 
It is an out-of-town, out-of-State mob that came in there. 

Mr, Clancy. That was not it at all. 

Mr. Rice. What was the story ? 

Mr. Clancy. This place was there. 

Mr. Rice, Beverly was there? 

Mr. Clancy. It was there, and I believe some fellows operating it, 
they operated at a loss, and they were going to sell it. 

Mr. Rice. Yes ? 

Mr. Clancy. And Kastel asked about opening it. 

Mr. Rice. Who did Kastel ask? 

Mr. Clancy. What is that? 

Mr. Rice. Who did he ask ? 

Mr. Clancy. He asked me about it. 

Mr. Rice. He asked you ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. He came to you and said, "Can I open a gambling estab- 
lishment here?'' 

Mr, Clancy. That is right. I said that as long as it will not inter- 
fere with the people there, if they don't object to it, it is all right with 
me, but 3'OU will have to put some men to work. 

Mr. Rice. Yes? 

Mr. Clancy. He agreed to do that. 

Mr. Rice. All right. 

Mr. Clancy. I have had no complaint about it from the neighbor- 
hood around there. 

Mr. Rice. You have had no complaint? 

Mr. Clancy. From the neighborhood. 

Mr. Rice. Did Governor Davis have anything to do with that? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; Governor Davis did not have anything to do 
with that. 

Mr. Rice. Talk to anyone else ? 

Mr. Clancy. No. 

Mr. Rice. How about the other clubs, how did the other clubs feel 
about Kastel coming in, the fellows already there, the Southport and 
the others ? 

Mr. Clancy. I don't suppose they liked it. 

Mr. Rice. What was the reaction that you got from them ? 

Mr. Clancy. They did not say anything to me about it. 

Mr. Rice. In other words, what they say about "King" Clancy is 
true — they came to "King" Clancy and got the O. K. ; is that a fair 
statement ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 381 

Mr. Clancy. I would not put it in that term, Mr. Downey, "King" 
Clancy. 

Mr. EiCE. In other words, you are the high power who gives the 
clearances ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir; I did. 

Mr. Rice. And when Clancy lowers the boom and says to close, they 
close; is that not right? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right; they close. 

Mr. Rice. And they are closed now ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Do you want to say that you had no discussion or con- 
versation with Governor Davis whatsoever in connection with the 
Beverly Club? 

Mr. Clancy. None that I can recall. 

Mr. Rice. None that you can recall ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Is it possible ? 

Mr. Clancy. I do not ever recall talking to Governor Davis about 
that at all. 

Mr. Rice. Talk to him about any clubs ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; not about any clubs that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. You never had a conversation with him in which he told 
you unless you allowed the Beverly to run he would close the other 
clubs? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; he never said. 

Mr. Rice. Did he say that? 

Mr. Clancy. No. 

Mr. Rice. Never heard about that? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about the Billionaire Club, who runs that? 

Mr. CL.VNCY. Just who is in there now I could not say, but Fink 
always interested in it, Herbie Fink. 

Mr. Rice. Herbie Fink ? 

Mr. Clancy, Yes. 

Mr. Rice. He fronts for Carlos Marcello; does he not? 

Mr. Clancy. No ; I don't believe he does. 

Mr. Rice. Where is that Billionaire Club located? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right across from the courthouse. 

Mr. Rice. And where is your office ? 

Mr. Clancy. Just across the street from it. 

Mr. Rice. Your office is in the courthouse ; is it not? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. So this club is right across the street? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. What do they do in there ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, there is horse betting in there. 

Mr. Rice. They have horse betting, wire service? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes; evidently they have wire service. 

Mr. Rice. Is that address 117 Huey P. Long Avenue? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir; that is not 117, Mr. Downey. 

Mr. Rice. Let us get that straight now. 

Mr. Clancy. 117 is where the wire service is. I want to confirm 
that. 

Mr. Rice. For the Daily Sports News ? 



382 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Clancy. Whose it is, I don't know. The wire service emanates 
from there. I found that out since you had your meeting in New 
Orleans. And when you asked me about 117, 1 had someone who dug 
this up for me, and it shows that the phone is listed, my office, both 
my office phones are listed as 117. They are in the courthouse, but 
they are listed as 117. I beg leave to file with you this. 

Mr. Rice. So we have a situation here now where you have an office 
in the courthouse on one side of the street and several telephones in 
there, but the telephone book shows that they are across the street in 
the same address where the gambling and wire service is ? 

Mr. Clancy. They listed them at 117, not across the street, the block 
above. 

Mr. Rice. How do 3^011 account for that ? 

Mr. Clancy. I do not know, and they have listed the phone on the 
east bank over in Metaire the same way. 

Mr. Rice. You are quite sure that the telephone service goes to you 
and not to the gambling club? 

Mr. Clancy. I am sure it is. 

Mr. Rice. Along that line 

The Chairman. Let us see what it is you have there. Will some- 
body hand it to us. 

(Two telephone book pa.ges were handed to the chairman.) 

Mr, Clancy. If you will look under "Frank J. Clancy" you will see 
Algiers 2179. 

Mr. Rice. That is your phone in the office ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is the tax collector's phone. 

Mr. Rice. Is it not true that the West Side Seafood Co. is also in 
that 117 Huey P. Long? 

Mr. Clancy. That I would not now. I do not know the West Side 
Seafood Co. 

Mr. Rice. If I should suggest to you that Carlos Marcello, AVest 
Side Seafood Co., is also in that 117, would that refresh your recollec- 
tion any ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir. The only thing I know about Marcello Sea- 
food, I heard that he had a place at Morgan City. Insofar as Gretna, 
I do not know about that. I heard that some years ago he had a place 
at Morgan City. 

Mr. Rice. Do you not see him from time to time, to go in there ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; I seldom ever get by that club. 

Mr. Rice. Your office is there ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir ; I go in ; I never see him go. I have never 
seen Carlos Marcello go in there ; 117, you see, is a block above us. The 
Billionaire is in the 200 block. 

Mr. Rice, I see. How about the Bank Club ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is at 117. 

Mr. Rice. The Bank Club is there, too ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Who runs that? 

Mr. Clancy. Wliat is that ? 

Mr. Rice. How about the Bank Club, who runs the Bank Club ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, just now who is in that, I don't know, but I am 
sure that the fellow by the name of Dick Guidry, I am pretty sure that 
he is in there. Who else is connected 

Mr. Rice. That is a gambling club ? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 383 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

]\Ir. Rice. That is right across in the building we are talking about, 
right across the street that we are talking about ? 

Mr. Clancy. From the West Side Seafood. 

Mr. Rice. In the 117, is it not? 

Mr. Clancy. I think that is the number of that whole building 
there. 

Mr. Rice. The whole building ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is 117. 

Mv. Rice. So we have in that building the Bank Club, the wire serv- 
ice and the West Side Seafood? 

]Mr. Clancy. I do not know about the West Side Seafood. Like I 
say, I have never been there. I have found out about the wire drop, 
as they call them, the wire service and the Bank Club that I know. 

Mr. Rice. And the wire service is the feeding, fan-out point for all 
of the handbooks in the entire area, as a matter of fact, for the States 
of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, I know 

Mr. Rice. They all stem from a place right across the street from 
your office, do they not? 

Mr. Clancy, Not across the street, just a block above, right close. 

Mr. Rice. A block above ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. What are you going to do about straightening that tele- 
phone thing out ? 

Mr. Clancy. I am going to ask the telephone company to change 
that thing. 

Mr. Rice. And do you know Mr. Fogarty ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, I know John Fogarty. 

Mr. Rice. What is his business ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, since I have known him he is supposed to be 
connected with racing information. 

Mr. Rice. Yes, and how long has he been there ? 

Ml*. Clancy. That I could not tell you, just how long he has been 
in Jefferson. I don't know. 

Mr. Rice. How long have you known him ? 

Mr. Clancy. I have known Fogarty for 10 or 15 years, I presume. 

Mr. Rice. Do you have conversations with him ? 

Mr. Clancy. Only once or twice out on the golf course. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever play golf with him ? 

Mr. Clancy. I never played with him. I met him on the golf 
course. 

Mr. Rice. As a law-enforcement officer there you undoubtedly had 
talks with him about his business. What did he tell you about the 
occasion in 1946 when Joe Poretti and Marcello started up competi- 
tive wire service and eventually api:>arently muscled into his outfit, 
what did he tell you about that? 

Mr. Clancy. He never told me anything about that. 

Mr. Rice. You never heard about that ? 

Mr. Clancy. I did not know about that. I heard about that later 
on. 

Mr. Rice. What did you hear about it later ? 

Mr. Clancy. That Marcello and this fellow Poretti, whom I didn't 
know • 



384 ORGANIZED CRIME I'N INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. He was an out-of -towner ? 

Mr. Clancy. What? 

Mr. Rice. He was out of State ? 

Mr. Clancy. I couldn't say, because I didn't know him. . That they 
had a wire service and that they had merged with Fogarty, that is all 
I knew about it, Mr. Downey. 

Mr. Rice. Was Fogarty happy about that ? 

Mr. Clancy. I couldn't say. 

Mr. Rice. You played golf with him ? 

Mr. Clancy. I haven't played golf with him in 10, 12 years. 

Mr. Rice. Have not seen him since then ? 

Mr. Clancy. Saw him at the hearing down there, was the first time 
since then. 

Mr. Rice. I would kind of appreciate your playing golf with him 
again and finding out the story about that. 

Mr. Clancy. What is that'? 

Mr. Rice. We are interested in that story of how Trans- American 
Wire muscled into the Continental out there. We would appreciate 
it if you will find out what you can about that. 

Mr. Clancy. If I can do anything, I will be glad to. 

The Chairman. I think the record should show that that competi- 
tive wire service was Poretti, 20 percent; Ralph Emery, 20 percent; 
Frank Capello, 20 percent; Anthony Corolla, 20 percent; Anthony 
Marcello, 10 percent; Joseph Marcello, Jr., 10 percent; and then, after 
the contest, why, it wound up, that is, after the contest with Mr. 
Fogarty, the new wire service wound up John J. Fogarty, 25 percent; 
Anthony Marcello, STi/o percent ; Joseph Marcello. 37^2 percent. Prior 
to that time Fogarty and his son, I believe, had it. They owned the 
Fogerty Wire Service. 

Mr. Rice. Yes; they had it. 

The Chairman. They are the Sports News. 

Mr. Rice. Yes ; they are the Sports News. 

We have a series of questions here that I think we can probably 
blanket into one. You were asked by the chaii'man, "Do you know 
what the New Southport Club was doing before 1940?" Do you know 
now? 

Mr. Clancy. The New Southport Club ? 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Clancy. So far as I know, that has always been. 

Mr. Rice. Has alway been gambling there? 

Mr. Clancy. Always been gambling there. 

Mr. Rice. And the Bank Club the same way ; how about the White 
Horse Inn? 

Mr. Clancy. Where is that located? 

Mr. Rice. It is in your parish. 

Mr. Clancy. That is one that I do not know. 

Mr. Rice. You do not know about the White Horse Inn ? 

Mr. Clancy. No. 

Mr. Rice. Previously you declined to answer on the ground that it 
might incriminate you. How do you explain that? 

Mr. Clancy. What is that, sir? 

Mr. Rice. Previously, you declined to answer a question about the 
White Horse Inn on the ground that it might incriminate you. How 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 385 

do you explain your position now, if you do not know about it; that 
is, how it might incriminate you ? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, because there is a statute down there about 
gambling in Louisiana. 

Mr. Rice. Yes; what has that got to do with you then, incriminat- 
ing you? 

Mr. Clancy. I figured they were going to make a charge against 
me for permitting gambling. 

Mr. KiCE. Who, you figured who was ? 

Mr. Clancy. Not you, no, not this committee. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Clancy. But the people down there would make a charge 
against me. 

Mr. Rice. For permitting gambling? 

Mr. Clancy. For permitting gambling. 

Mr. Rice. And so you figured that because the question was asked 
the White Horse must be a gambling place ? 

Mr. Clancy. I thought that it could be. I thought that is why the 
question was. 

Mr. Rice. Could it be possible that it is a house of prostitution ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir, not that we know of. We don't permit that. 

Mr. Rice. You do not have any house of prostitution ? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir, not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Let me ask you this : The Blue Horseshoe Tourist Court 
on Jefferson Highway, have you ever heard of that ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard that it has been a place of prostitu- 
tion for 20 years ? 

Mr. Clancy. I have heard this about it, that people go there and 
rent a room, but it is not a place of prostitution where you go there and 
hire the body of a woman. 

Mr. Rice. I see. 

Mr. Clancy. Just a tourist camp that you have all over the country. 

Mr. Rice. One of these places where you can rent a room ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is it, I have heard about it. 

Mr, Rice. And rent a room five or six times in the course of an 
evening ? 

Mr. Clancy. I would not know about how many times they rent it. 

Senator Tobey. Did you ever take pains to find out as a sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, Senator, I am under $25,000 bond, and if i go 
in on a place and I find that the people are there legitimately I am 
confronted with a lawsuit. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear that the place became so objectionable 
that people moved away from that neighborhood to get away from 
that environment ? 

Mr. Clancy. I have never heard any complaints about it. 

Mr. Rice. We have. 

Mr. Clancy. Possibly you have. 

Mr. Rice. That is another place you might inquire about when you 
get back. 

You now take the position that you do not know anything at all 
about the White Horse Inn ? 

Mr. Clancy. No ; I do not. 



386 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 

Mr. Rice. Tell us about the history of the slot machine operations 
in the parish there; who places the slot machines, who is in charge 
of them, how they came to be there. 

Mr. Clancy. Well, anyone with a place of business can put in their 
own machine. 

Mr. Rice. Put in their own machine? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. And if one of the boys here came down and started to 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; he could not go in, because he does not live in 
Jefferson. 

Mr. Rice. He has to live in Jefferson ? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Rice. So that they have to be residents of Jefferson then to put 
a slot machine in? 

Mr. Clancy. Or either their own machines, they own the machine. 

Mr. Rice. Has that always been true? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir ; that has been true. 

Mr. Rice. Have you ever heard of the L. & B. Mint Co ? 

Mr. Clancy. I believe they operated in New Orleans, I think. 

Mr, Rice. Yes, sure they did not operate in the parish? 

Mr. Clancy. Not to my knowledge. 

Mr. Rice. It is possible, though ? 

Mr. Clancy. It is possible they sneaked in there some way we 
didn't know anything about. 

Mr. Rice. What would you do if you knew something about it? 

Mr. Clancy. Well, we'd ask the people to take them out and use 
local people. 

Mr. Rice. So that it is a local privilege then to operate the slot 
machines ? 

Mr. Clancy. That is right, sir. 

Mr. Rice. How about Marcello, is he a local man? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir ; he lives in Jefferson. 

Mr. Rice. Where was he born ? 

Mr. Clancy. I really don't know. The paper said he was born in 
Africa. 

Mr. Rice. Born in Africa ? 

Mr. Ck^ncy. That is right. 

Mr. Rice. Is he a citizen? 

Mr. Clancy. I do not believe he is. 

Mr. Rice. Has he voting privileges ? 

Mr. Clancy. I do not think he has. 

Mr. Rice. Is he a desirable character? 

Mr. Clancy. I would not say that he is. 

Mr. Rice. Would you say he was a reprehensible character? 

Mr. Clancy. He conducts himself decently while down there. I 
couldn't say anything about his holdings or what he does other places. 

Mr. Rice. Did you ever hear that he made a telephone call to a man 
by the name of Vallone over in Texas just before Vallone was killed 
in a Mafia gang type of killing? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir; I never heard of that. 

Mr. Rice. Possibly, you might stay after the session and we will 
talk Marcello over. 

Mr. Clancy. What is that? 



ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE COMMERCE 387 

Mr. RrcE. It appears that, possibly, you do not know all about 
Marcello who is putting these slot machines in down there. 

Mr. Clancy. The only thing I ever heard about Marcello putting in 
slot machines, people wanted to build a place, he would advance them 
the money, and they would put in his slot machines. That is all I 
know about him. 

Mr. Rice. Do you know whether or not he has a criminal record? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir ; I have heard that he has. 

Mr. Rice, Has been in jail? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes. 

Mr. Rice. Has been in Atlanta ? 

Mr. Clancy. I do not know whether Atlanta or where, but I heard 
that he was sentenced for dope. 

Mr. Rice. What was that for? 

Mr. Clancy. For dope, peddling dope, I think. 

Mr. Rice. Did you say he was convicted for narcotics? 

Mr. Clancy. I think he was. 

Mr. Rice. That hasn't anything to do with slot machines, has it? 

Mr. Clancy. No, sir ; not that I know of. 

Mr. Rice. Is he out of the narcotic racket now ? 

Mr. Clancy. That I would not know, but he is not in it in Jeffer- 
son Parish. 

Mr. Rice. Are you sure about that? 

Mr. Clancy. I am pretty sure. 

Mr. Rice. Did they not pick up $21,000 worth of narcotics at 
Bridgedale the other day? 

Mr. Clancy. Yes, sir. We have been picking it up right along. 

Mr. Rice. How much was it, $21,000, was it not, something like 
that? 

Mr. Clancy. I do not know just the value of it, Mr. Downey. 

Mr. Rice. Who picked that up? 

Mr. Clancy. One of our men in conjunction with the Federal men. 
I have a narcotics squad of my own. 

Mr. Rice. Yes. 

Mr. Clancy. We have a gentleman that worked for 8 years with 
the Treasury Department. He has been doing a mighty nice job. 
• Mr. Rice. But you never have been able to find out whether Mar- 
cello has been active ? 

Mr. Clancy. So far we have not got him. 

Senator Tobey, You spoke of the privilege of slot machines in ;^our 
jurisdiction, and we know that is a fact. The law of Louisiana says : 

All officers of the State of Louisiana hereby are authorized and empowered and 
it is made mandatory and compulsory on their part to confiscate and imme- 
diately destroy all gambling devices known as slot machines that may come to 
their attention or that they may find in operation and the sheriff who fails to 
enforce this law is subject to removal from office under the constitution of the 
State. 

Is that correct? 

Mr. Clancy. That is correct, sir. 

Senator Tobey. You are still on the job as sheriff? 

Mr. Clancy. That is correct. 

Senator Tobey. And the slot machines are still going? 

Mr. Clancy. That is correct. 



388 ORGANIZED CRIME IN INTERSTATE CO